UFO UpDates
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   Oct

                          UFO UpDates Mailing List
                                  Oct 2004

  Oct 1:

   Police Report On Death Of Dr. John Mack - Stuart Miller [29]
   Re: PBS Poll: Do Aliens Really Exist? - King - Kyle King [41]
   Re: Blimp-Like Object - Reynolds - Rich Reynolds [8]
   Re: Hopkins' Technique - Sandow - Greg Sandow [86]
   Dr. James E. McDonald & The ETH - Alfred Lehmberg [200]
   Re: Lakenheath-Bentwaters 1956 - Sparks - Brad Sparks [13]
   Re: Not A UFO But A Military Blimp - Boone - Greg Boone [5]
   Giant Fly Photographed Attacking Mt. St. Helens - Bob Shell [10]
   Re: Bigelow's Inflatable Space Modules - King - Kyle King [9]
   Re: Tribute To Dr John Mack - Denzler - Brenda Denzler [8]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - Capt. Alejandro
   Franz [153]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - Royce J. Myers III
   [8]
   Muddling Morton Makes More Claims - Royce J. Myers III [65]
   Re: Hopkins' Technique - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [14]
   Re: Police Report On Death Of Dr. John Mack - - Alfred Lehmberg [17]
   Kidnapped By Aliens? - WSJ Review - Richard Hall [23]
   Secrecy News -- 10/01/04 - Steven Aftergood [163]
   Odd UFOs Reported Over Wisconsin - UFO UpDates - Toronto [59]
   Re: Blimp-Like Object - King - Kyle King [27]
   Re: Lakenheath-Bentwaters 1956 - Shough - Martin Shough [69]
   Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents - - Bruce Maccabee
   [14]
   Re: Blimp-Like Object - Shell - Tim Shell [3]

  Oct 2:

   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - Bruce Maccabee [4]
   Re: Mysterious Treefalls in Patagonian Forest - Paul Anderson [23]
   Re: Giant Fly Photographed Attacking Mt. St. - Patrick Knowles [21]
   Aliens Caught On St. Helens Live Web Cam? - Greg Boone [4]
   Strange Northern Ohio Activity - Kenny Young [102]
   Re: Tribute To Dr John Mack - Hale - Roy Hale [4]
   Re: Kidnapped By Aliens? - WSJ Review - Chace - David Chace [55]
   Re: Hopkins' Technique - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [36]
   Re: Lakenheath-Bentwaters 1956 - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [15]
   Re: Strange Northern Ohio Activity - Elliott - John Elliott [37]
   Re: Dr. James E. McDonald & The ETH - Allan - Christopher Allan [28]
   Re: Lakenheath-Bentwaters 1956 - Shough - Martin Shough [9]
   Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents - - Kyle King [33]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - Bruce Maccabee [10]
   Re: Hopkins' Technique - King - Kyle King [29]
   Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents - - Brad Sparks [27]
   Re: Kidnapped By Aliens? - WSJ Review - Boone - Greg Boone [30]
   Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents - - Brad Sparks [16]
   Re: Lakenheath-Bentwaters 1956 - Sparks - Brad Sparks [10]
   Re: Dr. James E. McDonald & The ETH - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [6]
   Black Vault Radio Tonight - John Greenewald - The Black Vault [63]

  Oct 3:

   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - Santiago Yturria
   [117]
   Balloon Spy-Sat Or UFO? - UFO UpDates - Toronto [46]
   Cleveland Area Sighting September 26 - Kenny Young [45]
   Re: Giant Fly Photographed Attacking Mt. St. - Barry Taylor [4]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - Barry Taylor [40]
   Re: Tribute To Dr John Mack - Burns - Chris Burns [9]
   Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents - - Larry Hatch [9]
   Re: Hopkins' Technique - Sandow - Greg Sandow [30]
   Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents - - Bruce Maccabee
   [31]
   Re: Hopkins' Technique - Chace - David Chace [40]
   Re: Hopkins' Technique - Freeman - Kelly Freeman Khfflsciufo@cs.com
   [34]
   Expert Shares Accounts of UFO Encounters - Frank Warren [76]
   The Legacy of John Mack - Nick Pope [29]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - John Velez [50]
   Re: Hopkins' Technique - Velez - John Velez [31]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - Amy Hebert [21]
   Dr. Joyce Brothers "Sightees" - UFO UpDates - Toronto [37]
   Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents - - Kyle King [30]

  Oct 4:

   Re: Dr. Joyce Brothers "Sightees" - Boone - Greg Boone [18]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - Santiago Yturria
   [9]
   Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents - - Robert Gates [61]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - Greg Boone [12]
   UFO Review Issue 5 - Stuart Miller [31]
   Re: Tribute To Dr John Mack - Chace - David Chace [58]
   Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents - - Kyle King [11]
   Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents - - Bruce Maccabee
   [11]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - Santiago Yturria
   [26]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - Amy Hebert [19]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - James Smith [31]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - James Smith [34]
   Re: Lakenheath-Bentwaters 1956 - Shough - Martin Shough [10]

  Oct 5:

   Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents - - John Harney [14]
   Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents - - Stanton Friedman
   [64]
   Re: Nick Pope On UK Radio Show - Pope - Nick Pope [14]
   Astronaut Gordon 'Gordo' Cooper Gone - Greg Boone [9]
   Gordo Cooper And John Mack - Gord Heath UFO*BC [41]
   Fleeing Villagers Mistook Disco Lights For Aliens - UFO UpDates -
   Toronto [23]
   More News On The Death Of Dr. John Mack - Stuart Miller [19]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - Alfred Lehmberg
   [12]
   Gordon Cooper - Lan Fleming [5]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [5]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [8]
   Mercury Astronaut Cooper Dies - UFO UpDates - Toronto [122]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - James Smith [35]
   Re: Bigelow's Inflatable Space Modules - Ledger - Don Ledger [6]
   Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents - - Robert Gates [11]
   CNN On Gordon Cooper - Hicks - Simon Hicks [21]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - John Velez [61]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Pope - Nick Pope [7]
   Edgar Mitchell To Reveal New Evidence Of UFOs & - Stephen MILES Lewis
   [23]
   Cooper Tales of UFO Encounters - Frank Warren [19]
   Re: Tribute To Dr John Mack - Pope - Nick Pope [15]
   Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents - - Kyle King [80]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - Greg Boone [40]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - Santiago Yturria
   [102]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - King - Kyle King [20]

  Oct 6:

   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 40 - John Hayes [406]
   Secrecy News -- 10/05/04 - Steven Aftergood [117]
   John Mack & Gordon Cooper A Duo Missed - Daniel Munoz - Notiovni [18]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - James Smith [103]
   Thanks For The Dr John Mack Sympathy Notes - Will Bueche - The John
   Mack Institute [13]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - Greg Boone [14]
   Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents - - Kyle King [55]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - Kyle King [12]
   Indian Scientists Spot UFO - UFO UpDates - Toronto [24]
   Re: Bigelow's Inflatable Space Modules - King - Kyle King [24]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Fleming - Lan Fleming [13]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Fleming - Lan Fleming [5]
   Local Resident Impresses Top UFO Expert - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO
   Research [26]
   Interesting Nuclear Propulsion Systems Site - Greg Boone [11]
   Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents - - Robert Gates [7]
   1952 - Scoutmaster Claims UFO Zapped Him - UFO UpDates - Toronto [35]
   Skeleton In Brazilian Museum Might Be Alien - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista
   UFO [124]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - James Smith [107]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - Greg Boone [32]
   Re: Skeleton In Brazilian Museum Might Be Alien - - Bob Shell [4]
   Re: Bigelow's Inflatable Space Modules - Ledger - Don Ledger [23]
   Re: keleton In Brazilian Museum Might Be Alien - - Greg Boone [10]
   Re: Interesting Nuclear Propulsion Systems Site - - Stanton Friedman
   [30]
   Lloyd Pye Lecture Brisbane Queensland - Diane Harrison [31]
   Filer's Files #42 - 2004 - George A. Filer [618]

  Oct 7:

   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - Bruce Maccabee
   [118]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - Kyle King [27]
   Re: Skeleton In Brazilian Museum Might Be Alien - - Kyle King [6]
   Re: Skeleton In Brazilian Museum Might Be Alien - - Kyle King [7]
   U.S. DOD 'Fact Sheet' - Rich Reynolds [11]
   Watchdog Accuses Ministry Of Defence Of UFO - William Bolt [9]
   Re: Interesting Nuclear Propulsion Systems Site - - Kyle King [18]
   Extraordinary Phenomena - UFO UpDates - Toronto [38]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - Santiago Yturria
   [32]
   Re: Skeleton In Brazilian Museum Might Be Alien - - A. J. Gevaerd -
   (Revista UFO [8]
   Re: Skeleton In Brazilian Museum Might Be Alien - - A. J. Gevaerd -
   (Revista UFO [14]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - James Smith [54]
   UK UFO TV Show May Be Bogus - Matthew Williams [16]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - James Smith [59]
   Mutilated Cows In La Pampa Argentina - Scott Corrales [21]
   Strange Creature in Entre Rios Argentina - Scott Corrales [35]
   Re: Interesting Nuclear Propulsion Systems Site - - Stanton Friedman
   [11]
   Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents - - John Harney [52]
   Regulation Of Civilian Space Travel - Kyle King [8]
   Like US In 50s Why Is India Experiencing 1000s - Eustaquio Andrea
   Patounas [60]
   Secrecy News -- 10/07/04 - Steven Aftergood [126]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - Stuart Miller [16]
   Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents - - Jerome Clark [7]

  Oct 8:

   Strange Red Light In Sky - UFO UpDates - Toronto [19]
   Re: Why Is India Experiencing 1000s UFOs? - Boone - Greg Boone [11]
   Re: Regulation Of Civilian Space Travel - Boone - Greg Boone [44]
   Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents - - Kyle King [61]
   Re: Interesting Nuclear Propulsion Systems Site - - Kyle King [19]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - Kyle King [70]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - Kyle King [70]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - James Smith [44]
   Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [160]
   Re: Gordo Cooper And John Mack - Oberg - Jim Oberg [34]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - James Smith [104]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - Stuart Miller [70]
   Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof - - Alfred Lehmberg [8]
   Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents - - John Harney [9]

  Oct 9:

   Majestic 12 & The US History Channel Sunday - Ryan S. Wood [59]
   Re: Gordo Cooper And John Mack - Heath - Gord Heath - UFO*BC [11]
   Re: Hopkins' Technique - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [23]
   Re: Hopkins' Technique - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [47]
   Re: Hopkins' Technique - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [30]
   Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents - - Jerome Clark [10]
   Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents - - Robert Gates [8]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - Kyle King [84]
   Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof - - John Rimmer [4]
   New Electro-Magnetic Effects Maps - Larry Hatch [42]
   Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof - - Alfred Lehmberg
   [12]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - James Smith [117]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - James Smith [143]
   Re: Hopkins' Technique - Velez - John Velez [19]
   Re: Why Is India Experiencing 1000s UFOs? - Allan - Christopher Allan
   [27]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - Martin Shough [6]
   Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents - - Martin Shough [8]
   Hoax UFO Sighting To Be Recreated For Art - UFO UpDates - Toronto [19]
   Re: Hopkins' Technique - Miller - Stuart Miller [8]
   Re: Hopkins' Technique - Hall - Richard Hall [9]
   Re: Hoax UFO Sighting To Be Recreated For Art - - Mac Tonnies [10]

  Oct 10:

   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - Kyle King [41]
   Edward U. Condon - Rich Reynolds [11]
   HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 10-09-04 - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO
   Research [264]
   Peter Robbins Interview Tonight 10/10 - Greg Bishop [13]

  Oct 11:

   Oliver Cromwell's Moonshot - Terry W. Colvin [70]
   Re: Hoax UFO Sighting To Be Recreated For Art - - Christopher Allan
   [19]
   Re: Hopkins' Technique - Harney - John Harney [12]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - Stuart Miller [51]
   John Mack UK Service 10-13-04 - Dave Haith [14]
   What Do 9/11 & Heaven's Gate Have In Common? - Stephen MILES Lewis
   [153]
   Jane Goldman Investigates - Nick Pope [15]
   NASA Redefines Boundary Of Space After - UFO UpDates - Toronto [53]
   Mexican Air Force FLIR Information - Capt. Alejandro Franz [66]
   Franz' Mexican Air Force FLIR Video Transcript - Capt. Alejandro Franz
   [18]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - James Smith [52]
   Are UFOs Hostile? - James Smith [31]
   Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof - - Dave Morton [12]
   Antonio Villas-Boas - Rich Reynolds [28]
   PRG/X-Conference Request - Stephen G. Bassett [25]
   Re: Hoax UFO Sighting To Be Recreated For Art - - Jerome Clark [18]
   Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof - - Greg Boone [11]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - Bruce Maccabee [5]
   Re: Hopkins' Technique - Harney - Don Ledger [12]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - James Smith [64]
   Re: Hopkins' Technique - Miller - Stuart Miller [19]
   UFO Disclosure Scenarios - James Smith [12]
   Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Harney - John Harney [4]
   Re: NASA Redefines Boundary Of Space After - Nick Pope [11]
   Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof - - Terry Groff [11]
   Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Boone - Greg Boone [27]
   Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof - - Kyle King [6]
   The New 'Klasskurtzian' - Alfred Lehmberg [97]
   Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof - - Greg Boone
   Evolbaby@aol.com [5]
   Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Ledger - Don Ledger [26]

  Oct 12:

   Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Smith - James Smith [4]
   Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - King - Kyle King [64]
   Re: The New 'Klasskurtzian' - King - Kyle King [3]
   Re: The New 'Klasskurtzian' - Connors - Wendy Connors [23]
   Re: Oliver Cromwell's Moonshot - Oberg - Jim Oberg [25]
   Re: Oliver Cromwell's Moonshot - Hatch - Larry Hatch [4]
   Remember Ufo Hoax Of '47? He Did It - Eustaquio Andrea Patounas [83]
   Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Hicks - Simon Hicks [1]
   Mysteries Of Space And Sky Conference - Dr. Peter Resta [26]
   Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof - - Kyle King [6]
   Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Gates - Robert Gates [8]
   Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Stevenson - Colin Stevenson [20]
   'UFO' Spotted Near Fort Wayne - UFO UpDates - Toronto [27]
   Re: The New 'Klasskurtzian' - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [37]
   Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - King - Kyle King [6]
   Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - King - Kyle King [19]
   Re: 'UFO' Spotted Near Fort Wayne - Reynolds - Rich Reynolds [14]
   Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Smith - James Smith [2]
   UFOs in Culhuacan Mexico - Scott Corrales [40]
   Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Smith - James Smith [133]
   Re: Mexican Air Force FLIR Information - Smith - James Smith [3]
   Re: 'UFO' Spotted Near Fort Wayne - Ledger - Don Ledger [4]

  Oct 13:

   Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - King - Kyle King [46]
   Re: 'UFO' Spotted Near Fort Wayne - Reynolds - Rich Reynolds [7]
   Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - King - Kyle King [29]
   Secrecy News -- 10/12/04 - Steven Aftergood [134]
   Re: 'UFO' Spotted Near Fort Wayne - Davenport - Peter Davenport -
   National UFO Reporting Center [25]
   Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Sparks - Brad Sparks [22]
   Re: UFO Disclosure Scenarios - Smith - James Smith [55]
   Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Smith - James Smith [16]
   Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Smith - James Smith [2]
   Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Smith - James Smith [19]
   Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Smith - James Smith [10]
   Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Smith - James Smith [30]
   Re: 'UFO' Spotted Near Fort Wayne - Reynolds - Rich Reynolds [12]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 41 - John Hayes [510]
   Re: The New 'Klasskurtzian' - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [18]
   HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 10-12-04 - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO
   Research [244]
   Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor? - Greg Boone [98]
   Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [29]
   Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor? - - Richard Hall [10]
   Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Smith - James Smith [83]

  Oct 14:

   Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Smith - James Smith [55]
   Re: UFO Disclosure Scenarios - Smith - James Smith [60]
   Re: 'UFO' Spotted Near Fort Wayne - King - Kyle King [17]
   Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - King - Kyle King [51]
   Re: UFO Disclosure Scenarios - King - Kyle King [16]
   Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Dickenson - Ray Dickenson [8]
   India UFOs & The Coming Global Supersilliness - Greg Boone [47]
   Re: UFO Disclosure Scenarios - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [12]
   Re: Mitchell To Reveal New Evidence - - Adrian Carlyle-Gordge [12]
   Re: 'UFO' Spotted Near Fort Wayne - Yturria - Santiago Yturria [13]
   Filer's Files #43 - 2004 - George A. Filer [624]
   Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor? - - Stanton Friedman
   [4]
   Christmas Ufology - Wendy Connors [32]
   What's New With The Bob Lazar Story? - Greg Boone [10]
   Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor? - - Stanton Friedman
   [4]
   The Official Report Black Hole - Simon Hicks [15]
   UFO Sightings Pick Up In Ohio - Kenny Young [123]
   Re: UFO Disclosure Scenarios - Smith - James Smith [21]
   Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Smith - James Smith [15]
   Re: UFO Disclosure Scenarios - Smith - James Smith [28]
   Re: 'UFO' Spotted Near Fort Wayne - Reynolds - Rich Reynolds [13]
   Conference Will Be Out Of This World - UFO UpDates - Toronto [49]
   US "President Is An Alien" - Joel Carpenter [33]
   Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Smith - James Smith [78]
   Re: 'UFO' Spotted Near Fort Wayne - Reynolds - Rich Reynolds [9]
   Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor? - - Greg Boone [58]
   Secrecy News -- 10/14/04 - Steven Aftergood [129]

  Oct 15:

   Re: UFO Disclosure Scenarios - King - Kyle King [33]
   Re: US "President Is An Alien" - King - Kyle King [9]
   Re: India UFOs & The Coming Global Supersilliness - Christopher Allan
   [19]
   Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Dickenson - Ray Dickenson [27]
   Re: The Official Report Black Hole - King - Kyle King [65]
   Re: Christmas Ufology - King - Kyle King [11]
   Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor? - - Richard Hall [9]
   Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor? - - Richard Hall [10]
   HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 10-14-04 - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO
   Research [459]
   Re: What's New With The Bob Lazar Story? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [15]
   Re: US "President Is An Alien" - Stevenson - Colin Stevenson [10]
   Alienware UK - Roy Hale [6]
   Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor? - - Stanton Friedman
   [17]
   Re: Christmas Ufology - Connors - Wendy Connors [19]
   Re: India UFOs & The Coming Global Supersilliness - Greg Boone [12]

  Oct 16:

   Holes Shot Through Mutant Monster & Story - Greg Boone [43]
   Re: India UFOs & The Coming Global Supersilliness - Don Ledger [11]
   Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor? - - Greg Boone [31]
   New Mars Probe To Launch In 2005 - Greg Boone [161]
   Re: 'UFO' Spotted Near Fort Wayne - Olmos - Vicente-Juan Ballester
   Olmos [24]
   Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information Project - Victor Viggiani
   [67]
   Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor? - - Larry Hatch [14]
   Re: What's New With The Bob Lazar Story? - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [9]
   Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor? - - Richard Hall [12]
   Men In Black Meetings Fake - UFO UpDates - Toronto [151]
   Re: Alienware UK - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [9]
   Re: Men In Black Meetings Fake - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [9]
   Ray Fowler's New Website - Raymond Fowler [5]
   Re: Holes Shot Through Mutant Monster & Story - - Larry Hatch [2]
   Re: Holes Shot Through Mutant Monster & Story - - Alfred Lehmberg [4]
   Re: Holes Shot Through Mutant Monster & Story - - Larry Hatch [10]
   Re: Men In Black Meetings Fake - King - Kyle King [32]
   Re: Alienware UK - King - Kyle King [27]
   Scientists Use Square Bacteria For ET Studies - Greg Boone [32]
   UK UFO Sighting July 27 2004 - Joachim Koch [13]
   GSA Bluebook Films - Rich Reynolds [15]
   Re: New Mars Probe To Launch In 2005 - King - Kyle King [55]
   Fort Wayne UFO Sighting - Rich Reynolds [9]
   Re: Holes Shot Through Mutant Monster & Story - - Greg Boone [11]

  Oct 17:

   Re: Holes Shot Through Mutant Monster & Story - - Kyle King [5]
   Re: GSA Bluebook Films - Hall - Richard Hall [7]
   NIDS 'Deactivates' - Robert Gates [31]
   PRG/X-Conference Press Release 10-13-04 - Stephen G. Bassett [71]
   HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings 10-17-04 - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO
   Research [341]
   Pierre Salinger Gone - Greg Boone [9]
   New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO - Frank Warren [62]
   Re: NIDS 'Deactivates' - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [12]
   Re: GSA Bluebook Films - Guenther - Daniel Guenther [6]

  Oct 18:

   Re: NIDS 'Deactivates' - Boone - Greg Boone [11]
   Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO - - Richard Hall [9]
   Betty Hill Passes At 85 - Loren Coleman [11]
   UFOs Over Sierra La Ventana Argentina - Scott Corrales [40]
   Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor? - - Stanton Friedman
   [36]
   Interest In Valparaiso Chile UFO Grows - Scott Corrales [118]
   Re: Men In Black Meetings Fake - Pope - Nick Pope [12]
   Re: Pierre Salinger Gone - Hatch - Larry Hatch [9]
   Canadians Tell Their Abduction Stories - Greg Boone [84]
   Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO - - Larry Hatch [22]
   Re: Betty Hill Passes At 85 - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [12]
   The Passing Of Betty Hill - Wendy Connors [5]
   Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO - - David Rudiak [28]
   Re: Betty Hill Passes At 85 - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [9]
   Re: The Passing Of Betty Hill - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [20]
   Re: The Passing Of Betty Hill - Koch - Joachim Koch [9]
   More On The Closure Of NIDS - Stuart Miller [84]
   Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO - - Bruce Maccabee [4]
   Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor? - - Bruce Maccabee [6]
   Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO - - Frank Warren [18]

  Oct 19:

   Betty - Ronald Freeman [6]
   Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS - Rutkowski - Chris Rutkowski [107]
   Re: Pierre Salinger Gone - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [21]
   Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS - Daum - Bryan Daum [17]
   Secrecy News -- 10/18/04 - Steven Aftergood [104]
   Re: UFO Figure Dies - Frank Warren [62]
   Can Anyone Identify This Battleship? - Colin Stevenson [8]
   Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [21]
   Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO - - Frank Warren [6]
   The Passing Of Betty Hill - Gary Matteson [8]
   Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO - - Kyle King [79]
   Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO - - Brenda Denzler [4]
   Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO - - Kyle King [18]
   Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO - - Larry Hatch [9]
   Anne Strieber Recovering From Stroke - UFO UpDates - Toronto [29]
   Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [10]
   Quintanilla Redux [was: New Mexico Close Encounter - Alfred Lehmberg
   [135]
   UFO Expert To Speak At University Event - Terry Groff [16]
   Woman Who Gained Fame With UFO Narrative Dies - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [77]
   Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS - Kyle King [6]
   Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO - - Stanton Friedman [7]
   Moonbeam: Canada's Answer to Roswell? - Chris Rutkowski [183]
   Re: Can Anyone Identify This Battleship? - King - Kyle King [8]
   Re: UFO Expert To Speak At University Event - - Alfred Lehmberg [15]
   Re: Quintanilla Redux - Shough - Martin Shough [7]
   Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS - Miller - Stuart Miller [15]
   Re: Can Anyone Identify This Battleship? - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas
   [19]
   Re: Miss Betty Gone? - Boone - Greg Boone [88]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 42 - John Hayes [234]
   Re: redible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof - - Frank Warren [181]
   Re: Quintanilla Redux - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [20]
   Re: Can Anyone Identify This Battleship? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [4]
   Re: Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient - Kyle King [20]
   Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS - Hall - Richard Hall [19]
   Re: Miss Betty Gone? - Hall - Richard Hall [5]
   Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS - Boone - Greg Boone [6]

  Oct 20:

   Re: Miss Betty Gone? - King - Kyle King [22]
   Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS - Hall - Richard Hall [6]
   Re: Can Anyone Identify This Battleship? - LeClair - Aaron LeClair [1]
   Re: Miss Betty Gone? - King - Kyle King [21]
   Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS - King - Kyle King [9]
   Little Green Men Adore Ontario Town - UFO UpDates - Toronto [50]
   Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS - Gates - Robert Gates [26]
   Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais [11]
   Valparaiso Chile UFO Explained - Scott Corrales [55]
   UK 'FOIA' Set To Launch January 1st - Stuart Miller [58]
   Famous UFO 'Abductee' Dies - UFO UpDates - Toronto [38]
   Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS - Stuart Miller [10]
   Re: Famous UFO 'Abductee' Dies - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [8]
   Re: Can Anyone Identify This Battleship? - - Colin Stevenson [7]
   Re: Can Anyone Identify This Battleship? - - Colin Stevenson [9]
   Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO - - Bruce Maccabee [3]
   Re: Can Anyone Identify This Battleship? - - Colin Stevenson [15]
   Re: Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information - James Smith [39]
   Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS - Smith - James Smith [28]
   First Space Ship One And Now - Kyle King [12]
   Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings? - Greg Boone [7]
   Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [17]
   Betty Hill Obituaries - Stanton Friedman [25]
   HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 10-20-04 - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO
   Research [353]

  Oct 21:

   More UFOs In Indian Skies - UFO UpDates - Toronto [66]
   Re: Betty Hill Obituaries - Boone - Greg Boone [22]
   Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS - Gates - Robert Gate s [44]
   Re: Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information - Erik Landahl [10]
   4400's Landing - UFO UpDates - Toronto [17]
   Re: Betty Hill Obituaries - Koch - Joachim Koch [48]

  Oct 22:

   Filer's Files #44 - 2004 - George A. Filer [552]
   Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof - - Rich Reynolds [30]
   Betty Hill's Conclusions - Greg Boone [16]
   Re: all To Action - Canadian UFO Information - James Smith [46]
   Web-Site Links - Rich Reynolds [18]
   Betty Hill Credible? - Bryan Daum [38]
   Secrecy News -- 10/21/04 - Steven Aftergood [155]
   Re: Betty Hill Obituaries - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [18]
   Re: Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information - Eleanor White [17]
   Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings? - White - Eleanor White [3]
   Any 'Unsung' Heroes In Ufology? - Greg Boone [110]
   Aliens UFOs And The Bible - Nick Balaskas [14]
   Out of the Blue video Is Excellent - Trevor Page [13]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Scheldroup - John Scheldroup [15]
   Shatner Wants To Go Into Space - Greg Boone [5]
   Re: Betty Hill Credible? - Boone - Greg Boone [15]
   Re: Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information - James Smith [82]
   Re: More UFOs In Indian Skies - Allan - Christopher Allan [12]
   UFO Flotilla Over Veracruz Mexico - Scott Corrales [61]

  Oct 23:

   Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings? - Smith - James Smith [19]
   Re: Any 'Unsung' Heroes In Ufology? - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [5]
   Re: Web-Site Links - Groff - Terry Groff [17]
   Stereotypical UFOs & Researchers - Amy Hebert [10]
   Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings? - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [157]
   NY Times Betty Hill Obit - Greg Boone [59]
   Rutan Photographs UFOs? - Alfred Lehmberg [19]
   Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof - - Frank Warren [29]
   Research Shows How False Memories Are Formed - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [129]

  Oct 24:

   Re: Gordon Cooper - Oberg - Jim Oberg [7]
   Re: Betty Hill Credible? - Hebert - Amy Hebert [52]
   Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings? - Boone - Greg Boone [3]
   Re: Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information - Eleanor White [85]
   Re: Research Shows How False Memories Are Formed - - Larry Hatch [5]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [10]
   Re: Research Shows How False Memories Are Formed - - John Harney [11]
   Re: Research Shows How False Memories Are Formed - - Terry W. Colvin
   [158]
   Re: Research Shows How False Memories Are Formed - - Terry W. Colvin
   [360]
   Re: Research Shows How False Memories Are Formed - - Terry W. Colvin
   [264]
   Re: Any 'Unsung' Heroes In Ufology? - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [9]
   Re: Research Shows How False Memories Are Formed - - Terry W. Colvin
   [229]

  Oct 25:

   Re: Gordon Cooper - Koch - Joachim Koch [12]
   Re: Research Shows How False Memories Are Formed - - Terry W. Colvin
   [151]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Scheldroup - John Scheldroup [24]
   Re: Research Shows How False Memories Are Formed - - Aaron LeClair [29]
   Link Pages - Rich Reynolds [15]
   Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings? - White - Eleanor White [6]
   CCRN News: Formation Reports #15-20 - Paul Anderson [116]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Oberg - Jim Oberg [8]
   Re: Research Shows How False Memories Are Formed - - Peter Rogerson
   [23]
   CI: Bioastronomy And SETI - Mac Tonnies [39]
   Betty Hill Remembered For Hospitality & Social Work - UFO UpDates -
   Toronto [42]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [32]
   Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings? - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein
   [15]
   Re: Research Shows How False Memories Are Formed - - Cathy Reason [38]

  Oct 26:

   Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings? - King - Kyle King [18]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Scheldroup - John Scheldroup [8]
   Continuing Encounters In Frederic Wisconsin - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO
   Research [206]
   Re: Rutan Photographs UFOs? - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [7]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - LeClair - Aaron LeClair [5]
   The Black Vault Site Update - 10-25-04 - John Greenewald [41]
   Mexican Air Force FLIR Lights Altitude - Capt. Alejandro Franz [12]
   National UFO Conference - John Greenewald M.C. - John Greenewald [21]
   Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings? - Boone - Greg Boone [12]
   Europe Leads Space Race To Hunt Down ET - UFO UpDates - Toronto [110]
   Fort Wayne UFOs - Rich Reynolds [20]

  Oct 27:

   Re: Gordon Cooper - Oberg - Jim Oberg [8]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Oberg - Jim Oberg [51]
   Avrocar vs. Weather Balloon At Edwards AFB - Joachim Koch [10]
   Sheaffer Slams UFO UpDates Readers - Chris Rutkowski [14]
   Secrecy News -- 10/26/04 - Steven Aftergood [119]
   New Radio Show Out Of Alabama - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO Research [13]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 43 - John Hayes [612]
   Re: Fort Wayne UFOs - King - Kyle King [53]
   Re: Fort Wayne UFOs - Hebert - Amy Hebert [17]
   Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings? - King - Kyle King [48]
   Sheriff Probes Mutilated Cattle - UFO UpDates - Toronto [53]
   Re: Stereotypical UFOs & Researchers - Harney - John Harney [8]
   Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings? - King - Kyle King [10]
   Re: Mexican Air Force FLIR Lights Altitude - - Nick Balaskas [26]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Ledger - Don Ledger [3]
   Re: Franz' Mexican Air Force FLIR Video Transcript - Capt. Alejandro
   Franz [22]
   Spielberg's Black Triangular UFO? - Greg Boone [15]
   Re: Sheaffer Slams UFO UpDates Readers - Boone - Greg Boone [3]
   Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings? - Boone - Greg Boone [21]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [6]
   Roswell Wreckage At 2nd Annual UFO Crash Retrieval - Ryan S. Wood [79]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Oberg - Jim Oberg [91]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Oberg - Jim Oberg [29]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Hall - Richard Hall [15]

  Oct 28:

   Re: Gordon Cooper - LeClair - Aaron LeClair [15]
   Re: Spielberg's Black Triangular UFO? - Burns - Max Burns [4]
   Re: Sheaffer Slams UFO UpDates Readers - LeClair - Aaron LeClair [4]
   Re: Sheaffer Slams UFO UpDates Readers - Myers - Royce J. Myers III
   [12]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [5]
   Interesting News For Cryptozoologists - Peter Rogerson [5]
   'Hobbit' Joins Human Family Tree - UFO UpDates - Toronto [107]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Rudiak - David Rudiak [20]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - King - Kyle King [43]
   Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor? - - Stanton Friedman
   [14]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [13]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Scheldroup - John Scheldroup [19]
   HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 10-27-04 - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO
   Research [300]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Rudiak - David Rudiak [357]
   Re: Sheaffer Slams UFO UpDates Readers - Connors - Wendy Connors [11]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [24]
   US Agency Aware Of Mexican C26A UFO Incident? - Geoff Richardson [9]
   Re: Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information - James Smith [75]
   Re: Spielberg's Black Triangular UFO? - Boone - Greg Boone [9]
   CE III Holds Up After 27 Years? - Greg Boone [10]
   Re: NY Times Betty Hill Obit - Warren - Frank Warren [143]
   Re: Spielberg's Black Triangular UFO? - Ledger - Don Ledger [8]
   Re: Spielberg's Black Triangular UFO? - Richardson - Geoff Richardson
   [7]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Hall - Richard Hall [20]
   Re: CE III Holds Up After 27 Years? - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [4]
   Re: US Agency Aware Of Mexican C26A UFO Incident? - Richard Hall [4]
   Re: Spielberg's Black Triangular UFO? - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [7]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Ledger - Don Ledger [17]
   Re: Sheaffer Slams UFO UpDates Readers - Ledger - Don Ledger [6]
   Re: NY Times Betty Hill Obit - Boone - Greg Boone [19]
   Re: Spielberg's Black Triangular UFO? - Ledger - Don Ledger [6]
   Re: Sheaffer Slams UFO UpDates Readers - Yturria - Santiago Yturria
   [39]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Oberg - Jim Oberg [23]
   Secrecy News -- 10/28/04 - Steven Aftergood [151]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Oberg - Jim Oberg [10]
   Reporters Under Threat - Greg Boone [7]
   Black Triangles Mr. Friedman? - Greg Boone [4]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Scheldroup - John Scheldroup [23]
   Re: US Agency Aware Of Mexican C26A UFO Incident? - John Velez [14]
   Re: Interesting News For Cryptozoologists - LeClair - Aaron LeClair
   [10]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [38]
   Project FOTOCAT News October 2004 - Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos [114]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Rudiak - David Rudiak [10]
   Re: CE III Holds Up After 27 Years? - Scheldroup - John Scheldroup [40]
   Orb Study Site - Eleanor White [5]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Rudiak - David Rudiak [60]
   Re: Franz' Mexican Air Force FLIR Video Transcript - Bruce Maccabee [8]
   Re: Black Triangles Mr. Friedman? - Hall - Richard Hall [7]
   Re: Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information - Eleanor White [21]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Hall - Richard Hall [24]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [12]
   Re: Orb Study Site - King - Kyle King [9]

  Oct 29:

   Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [12]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Hall - Richard Hall [13]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Fleming - Lan Fleming [42]
   Re: Black Triangles Mr. Friedman? - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [5]
   Re: Spielberg's Black Triangular UFO? - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [11]
   Farmer's UFO Dream Becomes Reality - UFO UpDates - Toronto [38]
   Re: Secrecy News -- 10/28/04 - Hicks - Simon Hicks [3]
   Mr. UFO - UFO UpDates - Toronto [118]
   Gordon Cooper: No Mercury UFO - UFO UpDates - Toronto [58]
   Wilhelm Reich's Space Contact - UFO UpDates - Toronto [301]

  Oct 30:

   Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [18]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Hall - Richard Hall [10]
   UFO Over Orizaba & Cordoba Mexico - Scott Corrales [48]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Hall - Richard Hall [7]
   Re: US Agency Aware Of Mexican C26A UFO Incident? - James Smith [31]
   Re: Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information - James Smith [29]
   Re: Orb Study Site - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [11]
   HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 10-29-04 - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO
   Research [415]
   Something Inexplicable In The Sky - UFO UpDates - Toronto [101]
   Why Time Flows In One Direction - UFO UpDates - Toronto [88]
   Re: Orb Study Site - King - Kyle King [27]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Fleming - Lan Fleming [7]
   Know The Story Of Noah's Ark? - Greg Boone [73]
   Igor Returns - Bruce Maccabee [31]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Sparks - Brad Sparks [21]
   Re: The Official Report Black Hole - Pope - Nick Pope [17]
   Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings? - Pope - Nick Pope [9]
   Re: Orb Study Site - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [6]
   Secrecy News -- 10/30/04 - Steven Aftergood [108]

  Oct 31:

   Re: Igor Returns - Pope - Nick Pope [19]
   Shielding & Harassment [was: Call To Action...] - Eleanor White [92]
   Re: Orb Study Site - Hebert - Amy Hebert [8]
   Re: The Official Report Black Hole - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [23]
   Cops & Saucers: Law Enforcement & UFOs 1957 To 1981 - Wendy Connors
   [25]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Rudiak - David Rudiak [59]
   Time Running/Run Out? - Ray Dickenson [70]
   Beyond Betty - Terry Groff [171]
   Nevada Day Celebrate The UFO State - UFO UpDates - Toronto [68]

   The number enclosed in brackets is the number of lines of new text in





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Oct > Oct 1

                   Police Report On Death Of Dr. John Mack

From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 11:16:21 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 06:04:51 -0400
Subject: Police Report On Death Of Dr. John Mack


Metropolitan Police Report On The Death Of Dr. John Mack

The deceased has now been formally identified as John E Mack, 74
years (DoB 10.12.29) from Cambridge, Massachusetts. He was
visiting the UK and was staying in the N20 area.

A PM was held this morning at Barnet Hospital. NOT FOR
PUBLICATION: We do not have the result at this stage.

An inquest was opened and adjourned today (29.9.04) at Hornsey
Coroner's Court.

To recap:
We are appealing for witnesses to a fatal collision in N20 on
Tuesday 28th September. At approx. 23:25 a silver Peugeot 306
driving west on Totteridge Lane was in collision with a
pedestrian as he crossed the road near the junction with
Longland Drive.

The pedestrian - a man in his fifties - was taken to hospital by
ambulance but died on arrival.

A postmortem will be held and an inquest will open and adjourn
in due course (venues to be confirmed).

The deceased was a doctor and writer from the US. He was
visiting the UK and was staying in N20 area. It is believed he
was on his way back to this address. His next of kin has been
informed but he has not yet been formally identified.

The driver of the Peugeot - a man also in his fifties - was
arrested at the scene on suspicion of driving with excess
alcohol. He was taken to a north London police station and
bailed to a date in mid November.

The Collision Investigation Unit from North West Traffic Unit
would like to hear from any witnesses on 020 8998 5319.

Officer in charge - PC Paul Cleevely.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Oct > Oct 1

                Re: PBS Poll: Do Aliens Really Exist? - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 08:53:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 06:10:42 -0400
Subject: Re: PBS Poll: Do Aliens Really Exist? - King


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 06:50:50 -0500
>Subject: PBS Poll: Do Aliens Really Exist?

>http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/origins/aliens.html (click on Launch)

>All of NOVAs 'instruction' against the affirmative regarding the
>question are unbalanced rebuttal arguments requiring homocentric
>assumptions they have to leap to make - and apparently hope you
>might make the leap, too.

>Still 80% of the over 3000 respondents don't buy into the
>slick mental programming and vote in the affirmative,
>regardless... wow!

>That's got to have some statistical significance. The NOVA site
>is philosophically hostile to the proponent community. It must
>really chafe NOVAs collective butt that people still vote the
>other way even when we've been 'told' otherwise. Indeed, that
>whole 'poll' was an obtuse _dodge_ to talk you out of the
>potentiality for intelligent alien life, and not to find out
>what a real 'breakdown' was. Their 'poll' tried to skew
>_itself_, before results could be tabulated. That doesn't
>appear to be very rational or at least negatively so. <g>

>PBS, be ashamed.

>alienview.nul
>  www.AlienView.net

The survey actually asks this question...

"Do alien civilizations exist in the Milky Way?"

The survey explains that whatever your answer, it will be
challenged.

I took the survey thrice, first answering only no to the
question. The second time I answered only yes. Finally, I
alternated yes to no.

What was notable to me was that the arguments challenging my
*no* answers were rather compelling in logic and scope.

The arguments challenging my *yes* answers were replete with
qualifications, like 'surely, unlikely, no evidence, etc' which
seemed to depend on our present understanding of the physical
world being the definitive truth, when this is obviously not the
case.

Most notable is the entry by Seth Shostak challenging the 'no'
position with sound reasoning.

After seeing both sides of the survey, what was most plain to me
was how weak were the arguments for no alien civilizations in
the Milky Way. Perhaps this provides a clue as to the breakdown
of respondents final answers. Keep in mind also that those who
would click on a survey link pertaining to the question of alien
life in the Milky Way might be expected to already believe in
the possibility, or at least desire a challenge to their
thoughts.

The survey makes no declaration, and it offers only challenges
to either mind-set.

The only bias I detected was in the choice of rebuttals. There
seemed to be a prevalence of astronomers, when one would think
that their expertise would not necessarily qualify them as
experts on alien life. There were quotes from other fields,
though.

All in all, I found the survey to be interesting in its stated
goal... to challenge your answer either way.

If you take the survey and alternate your answers, you get a
pretty fair approximation of the debate in this forum. Point...
counterpoint.

An interesting exercise, and a nice bolster for the pro-alien
argument, at least from the popular perspective. Can 80% be
wrong? :)


Regards to all,

Kyle








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Oct > Oct 1

                      Re: Blimp-Like Object - Reynolds

From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 08:58:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 06:15:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Blimp-Like Object - Reynolds


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 13:19:22 -0500
>Subject: Re: Blimp-Like Object

>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 08:02:16 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Blimp-Like Object

>>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 10:09:53 -0500
>>>Subject: Blimp-Like Object

>>>Forwarded to the UFO UpDates List for its consideration and

>>>http://www.fkbureau.org/

>>I believe that's a picture of "The Baldwin Dirigible."

>Yes, and not the whole photograph. The image is striking in its
>full form for the harsh contrast which accentuates both the
>cloud edge and the craft.

>The inset on the cited web page is washed out and much less
>impressive.


Kyle:

The dirigible, and it is the dirigible mentioned, at
fkbureau.org is from the book cited there, and is as the book
represents it - a dramatic photo by Stieglitz, enhanced perhaps.

I don't want anyone thinking we were slovenly or cavalier with
our reproduction of the photograph in question.


Thanks,

Rich Reynolds









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Oct > Oct 1

                       Re: Hopkins' Technique - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul>
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 10:39:22 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 06:22:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique - Sandow


>From: David Chace <davidwchace.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 01:05:16 -0700
>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

>>Hopkins shows Ryan a series of pictures - Dick and others
>>were quite right, there was only one alien image amongst
>>them. Ryan identifies Santa Claus, Batman, and a policeman before he
>>gets to the Alien image. When he sees it, he appears not to
>recognize

>>it at all and looks at Hopkins as if for a cue.

>>Hopkins asks "Ever seen anything like that before?" and
>>Ryan shakes his head indicating that he has not.

>Dick Hall or Greg Sandow probably know more about this test than
>I, but from my understanding Hopkins has the child tell a story
>about each of the images (or at least a few of them) and tries
>not to lead the child into thinking the Gray Alien image is any
>more significant than any of the others. I think what Hopkins is
>trying to determine is if the child has any special recognition
>of, or associations with, or emotional reaction to the Alien
>image that could suggest either conscious or subconscious
>memories of a UFO abduction experience involving such beings.
>The child's stories about the other images provide a baseline
>for comparison.

Thanks, David, for your usual calm and careful explanation.

One problem with this test is similar to a problem I found in
one detail of Budd's work in the "Witnessed" case. Budd shows
the child all the cards. No matter how much he tries to control
his face, his voice, and his body language, it's hard to believe
he wouldn't indicate in some subliminal, very likely unspoken
way that the alien card had more meaning than the rest. The
child could then pick up on that, and treat the alien card as
special, too.

But I don't think this is a crippling problem. In the
"Witnessed" case, it unfortunately invalidated one test Budd
tried to make. One of Linda Cortile's children had met an
impressive older man, who did some unusual things. Budd wanted
to find out if this might have been the famous "third man," who
we know know was international celebrity, the then-Secretary
General of the United Nations.

So Budd showed the kid a series of photos, all showing various
older men, one of them the Secretary General. The kid said that
photo showed the man he'd met. But Budd could have been giving
unconscious cues, which could have influenced the child's
choice. He should have had the test done by someone who didn't
know which photo was the 'right' one.

But there's no way to do this with the abduction cards. Where
could Budd or anybody else find someone who didn't know why the
test was being given, what was at stake, what Budd believed, or
what the alien card was? Seems to me that anybody giving the
test might give unconscious cues.

So the test has a built-in problem. The way around it is to ask
the child to talk about each of the images. And for this reason
it's important to know the full context - to know everything
Budd says to the kid, and everything the kid says to Budd. NOVA
didn't show this, and so it's irresponsible for anyone to draw
conclusions about Budd's work from what they did show.

As Budd has told me several times over the years, it's common
enough for kids to react to the cards something like this. If a
card shows a policeman, the kid might say, "That's a policeman.
He protects me." Or Batman: "That's Batman. He's on TV." And
then the alien: "I don't like him! He comes in my window at
night and takes me away." There's no way Budd's unconscious cue
could suggest this story. Of course the child could have picked
it up from his or her parents' talk about abduction, but that's
a separate problem. It has nothing to do with Budd's card test.

If kids were making up the stories they tell in response to the
alien card, you'd expect them to vary a lot. "He's a bad troll
who lives in the woods." "He's a nice man who's made of ice
cream." "He's a clown in the circus with funny eyes." Or, if
kids got some cue from Budd that the alien was scary: "I don't
like him. He lives in the trunk of my daddy's car." "He's scary!
He grows bad mushrooms in the woods."

But Budd says kids repeatedly tell the story about the alien
coming through the window and taking them away. There are
variants, of course. "He's a bad doctor. He takes me in his
spaceship." "He takes me away to the sky. I don't want to go."
This would suggest the kids aren't making the story up, but are
either repeating something they've heard, or reporting an actual
experience. And so then the question might be how often kids
have told Budd these similar stories, under what conditions,
with what relationship to their parents, and so on.

And here it's important to remember that Budd didn't start to
talk to children because he suspected, all on his own, that they
were being abducted. Or, worse, that he was determined to prove
they were being abducted, without any evidence. Instead, kids
raised the question on their own, by saying things that sounded
like they might be having abductions. As far as I know, this
started way back in the earlier days of abduction research. And
certainly I've run into it myself, just as, quite independent of
Budd, I've sometimes (not often) run into people in the course
of my daily life who, with no contact with any abduction
researcher, show all the standard symptoms that would lead Budd
or Dave Jacobs to think they were being abducted.

XXX referred to this situation in his or her post. You're a
parent, and your kid starts talking about things that certainly
sound like abductions - little white men taking her up to the
sky, whatever. This seems to come from nowhere, not from a TV
show the kid had seen, not from the parents' conversation. In
one case I know of, someone involved with UFOs had an abduction
book sitting on a table, with the usual alien picture on the
cover. Family members came to visit, and a young child in the
group saw the picture and started saying something like, "He's
bad! I don't like him! He comes and takes me to the sky." The
parents, as I remember the story, were taken completely by
surprise.

Again, these anecdotes don't prove anything. Maybe all these
kids somewhere ran into abduction stories and imagery.

But what if they didn't?


Greg Sandow








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   Oct > Oct 1

                       Dr. James E. McDonald & The ETH

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 11:32:00 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 06:54:57 -0400
Subject: Dr. James E. McDonald & The ETH


Dr. James E. McDonald & The ETH - A Review of Wendy Connors'
Sixth Compilation of Ufological Aural History

by Alfred Lehmberg
www.AlienView.net

Wendy Connors _is_ a wonderland. She continues to produce the
quality ufological goods at her usual prodigious, if worryingly
race-running pace. Additionally, if beside the point - which is
the truly monumental ufological contribution of Dr. James E.
McDonald, plus some cogent but alternant thinking on the
Extraterrestrial Hypothesis - she puts in this iteration of her
foundational ufological history series a high ornament on the
tree symbolizing her ever expanding contribution to it! She
illustrates - by accident or design - in an unspoken sidebar,
every reason one needs to have for detesting the scurrilous
activities of Philip J. Klass (et al), arch-skeptibunky, uber-
 menchen CSICOP storm-trooper, and specious agenda grinder.
Hyperbole and histrionics? In my opinion, decidedly, no.

Philip Klass, by way of quick explanation, and forgetting that
he is at the tap-root of every less-than-constructive attitude
our hijacked mainstream communicates with regard to UFOs, was
socially instrumental to, and so holds, in my too humble
opinion, _some_ responsibility for the tragic suicide - _if_
that's what it was - of the this review's hinge pin, nascent
ufologist Dr. James E. McDonald.

I think it can be argued, reader, that there is metaphoric blood
on Mr. Klass' hands. Among portentously outrageous others,
Klass' obtuse blindsiding, completely immaterial, totally
baseless, absolutely fraudulent, and patently disingenuous
attacks on the competence, character, intelligence, and
integrity of Dr. McDonald are well known and require no
citation.

James McDonald, indeed, was an early victim of a conjectured
"Mothman Futility Mechanism." The sufferer of this mechanism is
a rational person who encounters an aspect of the 'highly
strange', and, in a passionate investigation of that very real
strangeness, ends up paying an awful 'price' for the pursuit of
that enigma's challenge, as it's demanded by the 'enforcement
arm' - Klass et al - of the jealous non-elected "them," to put a
point on it. And please ask me who "they" are - please. Please.

This story transcends mere tragedy, good reader. McDonald lost a
shining-star career, followed by his family - a wife and six
kids - and then finally his life when he walked out into a
lonely desert, hounded by the capering trolls and ardent
apologists of a disingenuous and corrupted mainstream - Klass, et
al - and fired a 38 caliber bullet into his brain.

...

To his credit, the memory of Dr. McDonald is lauded by ALL the
quality ufological proponents, and studiously ignored, unless
pressed, by the opponents of same. To the discomfiting chagrin
of the latter, Dr. McDonald actually _was_ what most mainstream
scientists and researchers only pretend to be: data driven
explorers of the brave unknown and courageous surveyors of our
inevitable and fast approaching future ... incisive scouts and
intrepid pioneers on a four-fold path of experience, knowledge,
wisdom, and enlightenment!

A result of Wendy Connors' tireless diligence, Dr. McDonald
provides the listener another "real deal": a _private_ audience
where he lays out, in a cogent, practical, and compelling
manner. One: the case for UFOs and the extraterrestrial
hypothesis - ETH) Two: the abject failure of Science, Agency,
Institution or Government (SAIG) to address UFOs in a _remotely_
intelligent manner and Three: the incompetent, biased, and
sullenly canted 'official' investigations of UFOs _extant_ and
referenced today, inexplicably, still! One begins to sense the
awful magnitude of the terrible forces (SAIG!) that would be
arrayed unjustly against our intrepid Doctor...

Just so we'll understand who we're dealing with here, James
Edward McDonald held a respected Doctorate in physics from Iowa
State University in the early fifties. He had worked there,
briefly, as an assistant professor in meteorology.

Additionally, he was a research physicist in the University of
Chicago's department of meteorology. A member of the University
of Arizona faculty, he was first an associate professor, then a
_full_ professor in the real-world department of meteorology.
 Full professorships in moneyed academic departments from world-
class Universities are not handed out like happy meals.

McDonald was also a senior physicist in the University's
Institute of Atmospheric Physics, served as both associate
director and scientific director where he was a preferred
advisor to numerous federal agencies, including the National
Science Foundation, the Office of Naval Research, the National
Academy of Sciences, and the Environmental Science Service
Administration. If he'd been for sale to a foreign government,
the price tag would have been in the high nine figures. This
individual was a world-class act of trained intelligence, a top
drawer scientist, a hard-nosed researcher, and was "afraid of
nothing,"  he'd also, along with his wife, seen a UFO!

It's no stretch he was the Klansman skeptibunky's worst
nightmare. He was a brave and talented intellectual, 'a man of,
zeotropic, color' with age, experience, and reputation. He could
say, and very well, exactly what he meant!  And he held the "ace
river card", good reader, he wore an academic 'badge'!

It's no wonder that he would have to be destroyed. And he
was. Verily. Thank _you_, Mr. Klass - et al, living and
dead.

Again - Dr. McDonald was an articulate, engaging, and compelling
speaker with a fine sense of humor as reported by seminal
ufologist Richard Hall, and, as the listener will discover,
constructively humorous. He was even able to make his audience
_laugh_ at his opposition (likely his most unforgivable 'sin',
on reflection, against his back-shooting, corner-sniping and
tres-cowardly opponents) as he exemplifies, even today, the
totality of their collective failure to pursue _real_ science
with reasonable examples, faultless logic, and illustrative
parables, or pertinent conjectures based on facts and truly
scientific thinking like Dr. McDonald was legend to be able to
do. Listeners of Connors' compilation are enabled to hear that
for themselves.

McDonald produced no books on the subject of UFOs,
unfortunately, but did produce several short pieces on his
series of lectures and presentations made to learned colleagues
and other professional persons. These talks included
explications on:


1. Our Science in Default - a paper detailing 22 Years of
Inadequate UFO Investigations

2. The "Problem" of Unidentified Flying Objects - thoughts on
perceiving a cover-up.

3. Meteorological Factors in Unidentified Radar Returns

4. UFOs And The Condon Report -. A Scientist's Critique on
Condon's validity and procedure.

5. Statement on UFOs - Hearings Before The Committee on Science.
Debunking the debunkers.

This is a hint of what the listener is treated to... sober and
intelligent reflections on the reality of UFOs. No hyperbole or
histrionics... just straight science as pure as the garden
variety skeptibunky (Klass et al) would _purport_ to want to
have it!

Verily! Weigh Dr. McDonald's concise speech of even _yesterday_
against the state of the art skeptibunker's duplicitous pule of
today, and be not too surprised with regard to who arrives the
proverbial day-late-and-dollar-short! All the senseless faux-
 skepticisms still trotted out currently with insentient and
numbing regularity were asked and answered, proffered and
discredited... suggested and invalidated decades ago by James E.
McDonald! Wendy Connors, indeed, provides you with a primary
reference proof you can hold in your hands! UFOs _are_ real!

That's not _all_ that will be found on Wendy's current
compilation!

There's Edward R. Murrow, one of the last few media
journalists who had respect for the sensibilities of news
consumers and who believed that an _informed_ public was the one
best served. Not resorting to cheap-shots, easy sensationalism
or degrading comedy, he puts the subject of UFOs squarely in the
street during an incisive thirty minute radio program... as
valid today as it was in 1950!

There's Air Chief Marshall, Lord Hugh Dowding, dead in 1970, a
British Royal Air Force Chief of Staff, who relates his belief
in the ETH (a belief maintained until the end of his life) on
August 9, 1954.

There's a copy of "Open Mind Debate" _ A public affairs program
from 1960 where Professor Eric F. Goldman of Princeton
University moderates an _astonishing_ program on the subject of
UFOs. The subject, "Are Flying Saucers Only Science Fiction"?...
is debated by guests: Dr. J. Allen Hynek, Dr. Donald H. Menzel,
Dr. Ronald Leonard Sprinkle, Dr. Frank Saltzburg and researcher
John G. Fuller. Be amazed how cagey, obfuscating, evasive, and
_guarded_ Dr. Menzel can be... and wonder why. Reflect on why he
would be the _only_ panel member to get angry... Do scientists
_really_ do as they want?

That's not all! General Douglas MacArthur holds forth on UFOs
and extraterrestrials! Dr. Adolph G. Dittmar explicates on
them! Dr. Ivan T. Sanderson lectures about them! Robert Coe
Gardner cogitates in their regard... out loud! Dr. Willy Ley
compellingly expounds! Wow!

That's, still, not all! Twelve hours less change, total time,
awaits the open mind and courageous heart of a curious listener.
And _be_ curious, good reader!

Curious, you increase our aggregate bravery to challenge the
unknown; by becoming more brave; you expand and elevate our
society; you help to re-take our hijacked mainstream!
Additionally, you invalidate the specious pronouncements of
Philip Klass (et al) and his capering coterie of cultish
apologists, men who have always resorted to character
assassination, baseless innuendo, and duplicitous mechanism...
when they can't debate their worthy opponents competently on the
issue at hand and are keen, only, upon grinding their own
duplicitous axes.

And who can blame them?. Standing tall only insures their
demise. Real debate hastens their destruction. Real dialogue
only provides for the righteous invalidations they have earned!
But, then, I don't _care_ what their reasons are for their
obfuscation! They are not shared with _me_, and so are then
unacceptable, on spec!

That these threadbare and disingenuous pelicanists stand in the
way of human progression with their senseless and obstinate
obliviousness, that they ignore recorded history, or that they
connive to despoil, degrade, and destroy their betters are
reasons enough to discredit them - provide for _their_
professional demise... dismiss _their_ legacy, such as it is!
Yea and Verily!

Wendy Connors provides, in my opinion, ample historical evidence
for the validity of all the preceding contentions in her latest
compilation, "James E. McDonald & The Extraterrestrial
Hypothesis." The listener should not be disappointed.....

More info and purchase information can be found contacting Wendy
Connors at:

www.fadeddiscs.com

wendy.nul

Read on!



alienview.nul

www.AlienView.net









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   Oct > Oct 1

                   Re: Lakenheath-Bentwaters 1956 - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 12:49:58 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 06:56:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Lakenheath-Bentwaters 1956 - Sparks


>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:48:41 +0100
>Subject: Lakenheath-Bentwaters 1956

>The "Lakenheath Collaboration" website was launched quite a while
>ago now at:

http://www.parcellular.fsnet.co.uk/Lakenheath.htm

>I've wondered if its association with the dread names of Clarke
>and Roberts is the cause of some reflex aversion on the part of
>listerions? But no, there has been - so far as I am aware -
>absolutely zero response from any of the so-called
>skeptibunkers, as well as the so-called ETH believers. People
>must be keeping their opinions to themselves for subtler
>reasons.

Absolutely! I don't have time right now for a longer posting but
I do want to see if Clarke et al. are going to jump in on this
first, and see what they say.

>The apparent absence of interest in this project isn't entirely
>surprising in view of the fact that it doesn't espouse any
>clear-cut theory about what happened, and the complicated many-
>layered structure means that it isn't necessarily easy for
>others to enlist the facts it contains in support of one. But
>I'd like to know what people feel is the status of this case
>today. I've posted this rather long discussion both to inform
>the list as to some history behind the Lakenheath website
>project and to encourage a little debate about some of the
>outstanding issues.

What is the bottom line? No one can tell by pouring over endless
details. I have a very simple bottom line and am surprised you
do not, unless you are holding it in reserve. Your superb
analysis and massive data presentation surely has led to some
bottom line conclusions on the key elements of the case, the
elements that have made it a classic. But it is possible to lose
sight of the forest while counting the trees.


Regards,

Brad Sparks








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                 Re: Not A UFO But A Military Blimp - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:07:09 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 07:07:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Not A UFO But A Military Blimp - Boone


'Eye In The Sky' Makes Residents Nervous

BALTIMORE -- Baltimore residents flooded 911 Wednesday with
calls about a UFO-type object over the city.

More:

http://www.thewbalchannel.com/news/3772071/detail.html








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   Oct > Oct 1

               Giant Fly Photographed Attacking Mt. St. Helens

From: Bob Shell <bob.nul>
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 15:17:41 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 07:26:01 -0400
Subject: Giant Fly Photographed Attacking Mt. St. Helens


Now the truth can be told about those "tremors" volcanologists
have been reporting for the last week.

Here we have absolute photographic proof that the giant,
ten-ton flies reported frequently around Mt. St. Helens (and
which feature prominently in local Native American folklore) are
in fact real.

http://www.photodump.com/direct/Fnord/mshvolcanocam.jpg

Submitted by;

Bob Shell, Director
Nearsight Institute









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   Oct > Oct 1

                Re: Bigelow's Inflatable Space Modules - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 17:44:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 17:26:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Bigelow's Inflatable Space Modules - King


>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 18:15:56 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Bigelow's Inflatable Space Modules

><snip>

>>That should have read, constructed in Texas, Kyle. Whereever
>>they were manufactured the inference was that safety was
>>subordinate to some manufacturer's bottom line. This from
>>memory, from a press release about 5 years ago, from NASANews.
>>Also I think I've seen reference to this by Dr. Robert Zubrin
>>[sp].

>>These newer multi layered, inflatable modules can take a hit by
>>a marble sized meteoroid due to it's Kevlar construction and
>>apparently some of them carry  recyclable water in internal
>>jacket as well.


Hi Don,

Just caught this online:

http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n0409/27bigelow/

Apparently JSC is a prime benefactor for Bigelow's group.
Calling it a mini-Skunkworks is a significant allusion, I think.
Hopefully we'll get a little of the fabrication business out of
this one. :)

Looks like Bigelow's idea is on the fast track!


Kyle







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                    Re: Tribute To Dr John Mack - Denzler

From: Brenda Denzler <denzlerb.nul>
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 20:20:25 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 17:27:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Tribute To Dr John Mack - Denzler


>From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:24:02 +0100
>Subject: Tribute To Dr John Mack

>I would like to think John is looking down on us hoping for
>all of us to keep finding those elusive answers he always
>sought.


I'm sure you're right. However, I predict that within six
months, someone somewhere in UFO-land will stop seeking and
start "channeling John Mack" and giving us all kinds of "truth"
about UFOs, alien abductions, crop circles, mutes, the
government cover-up, and what *really* happened at Roswell.

Stay tuned.


Cynically,

Brenda








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              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 20:33:34 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 17:35:07 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: Santiago Yturria <syturria.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 12:56:53 -0500
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

<snip>

>Just as an important information. Last Sunday in Mexico the
>Cantarel oil flames hoax was exposed on national television
>during the two-hour live broadcast of the Grandes Misterios TV
>show presenting the facts and official information that exposed
>and disqualified the hoaxer once for all.

Hello dear Santiago, it is Cantarell not Cantarel.

I am very thankful to Jaime Maussan who dedicated 16 minutes and
29 seconds of his National TV show trying desperately to
discredit my work and my investigation results. I never had so
nice and free opportunity. Thank you all again!

Mexican Grandes Misterios TV show sunday 27th, 2004:

http://www.alcione.org/FRAUDES/FAM/CAMPECHE/Maussan092604.wmv

Maybe you don't have the grit to call out my name, that 'hoax'
author you are talking about is me. I was delighted seen my work
and name on national TV and I am still laughing from this frenzy
and delirium ineffective efforts you are doing trying to shut
off my mouth and I am sure you and your group of circus makers
are going to loose this case.

There are enough evidences that the Mexican Air Force FLIR
lights are "oil well flames". Period. 98% points that way.

How did you and your expert colleagues find out it was a hoax?

I don't recall if you mentioned my name when you posted some
news regarding the Mexican Air Force Video since may 11, 2004
neither you never mentioned me. Why Mr. Yturria?

I don't remember that you asked me or at least posted to me
nothing regarding the oil wells and I think I am the "original
author" of the oil well theory, at least here in UFO UpDates
list. Or maybe I am so stupid I forget to answer you, then
please, if you are so kind send me your post again and I'll be
glad to answer you.

For your information I did a hard work investigation and
provided enough material explaining that the 'lights' in the
Mexican Air Force FLIR video are oil wells and not UFO's.

Could you be so kind and show us as a UFO investigator what your
results are from the Mexican Air Force FLIR video?

Why Dr. Bruce Maccabee name was called last sunday as to be a
'hoaxer promoter'? See:
http://www.alcione.org/FRAUDES/FAM/CAMPECHE/Maussan092604.wmv

You as a UFO investigator must have a lot of information and you
could tell us what methodology you used or what software,
computers, radar video, interviews, military witnesses
background and their training record, the log book from the C26A
airplane, the working report of the "hurricane" 'huracan'
(electronic technician) who I suspect is "the man" who repairs
the on board equipment before the flights.

Listen to (video translation) at 16:59:50L sequence here:

http://www.alcione.org/FRAUDES/FAM/CAMPECHE/Campeche06.wmv

I hope you remember this.

Source:

http://www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/ufo04me3.htm

 "OIL FIELD FLAMES BEHIND MEXICAN UFOs?

  Posted June 20.04

  UFO Investigator Santiago Yturria has responded
  to a suggestion in the following news story,
  that the recent Mexican Air Force radar encounter
  with UFOs cannot simply be explained by gas flares
  in the southern Gulf. His e-mail to FarShores is
  reproduced here:
                        ----

   Santiago Yturria wrote:

  Your article OIL FIELD FLAMES BEHIND MEXICAN UFOs?
  is inaccurate and has been disqualified by the
  authorized Mexican research team. The original
  author of this theory, as well as German debunker
  Werner Walter, failed to answer how it was possible
  that the Merlin C26A Radar also detected the objects
  moving, changing directions and increasing their
  speed at certain intervals.

  The Merlin Radar cannot detect oil flames at any
  distance and the detected objects performed manoevres
  as solid objects.

  Second:
  How can some oil flames be invisible for the human
  eye at 2 miles distance? This was not answered.

  If Radars could be deceived by some oil flames then
  even the most powerful and sophisticated strategic
  and military systems in the world like NORAD would
  be highly vulnerable.

  Don't get the wrong idea on this case. Those debunkers
  are desperate to minimize the impact of our Mexican
  UFO disclosure. But their attempts have been certainly
  naive and absurd, proposing theories not based on the
  facts and only intended to distract the attention and
  deceive the general opinion.

  We hope this message will clarify some points on this
  investigation. The March 5, 2004 UFO incident still
  remains unexplained.

  Best regards,

  Santiago Yturria
  syturria.nul
  MEXICO "

 --------------

>From the above:

I don't recall I did fail to answer you nothing.

The original author of this theory is me. Or not?

As Jaime Maussan does not have the courage and dignity to show
up here please tell him that I have no words to thank him for
giving me such a great publicity, (if you can't, then,
rumormonger John Velez will do that for you)

I can't post to John Velez because in a very threatening private
post he told me many months ago he won't get in to anything
regarding myself, my posts, my work or me. That's why I didn't
answer his bitter posts full of hate and impotency. If he agrees
I can forward his post here. I know he knows what a man's word
means.

In the last sunday TV show Maussan call loud and clear to my
company "Aeromexico" where I work and asked to take care of me.
I wish they will contract me to do more commercials with
beautiful extraterrestrial girls as it was in the past on
national TV as Aeromexico use to do publicity. It was a success!
Thank you again.

For those who want to see the video from last Sunday:

http://www.alcione.org/FRAUDES/FAM/CAMPECHE/video_maussan_pozos.wmv

Because of last Sunday's show I am receiving a lot of requests
and my mail box is plenty of good and bad will posts. God, thank
you for giving me this opportunity to express myself and also
for having this nice people around me!  :)

>The pro-cover up campaign an it's attempts to discredit the
>Mexican Air Force, their officials and Secretary of Defense
>after the UFO disclosure failed when the conspiracy was
>discovered and exposed on national TV.

Excuse me Mr. Yturria, I did not discredit the Mexican Air
Force, I told the truth. I was questioned about my opinion and
you can ask any of the 104 million mexican citizens what do they
think about our Mexican Air Force. Go, ask them!

Open your eyes!..do research!

The Mexican Air Force is very small, and his training programs
are very poor. I used to work from 1973 to 1978 in Guadalajara's
Intl. Airport Control Tower and the civilian Air Traffic
Controllers used to be the teachers in the "Colegio del Aire'"
Military Air Force School at Zapopan Main Mexican Air Force
Training field to teach Air Traffic Control.

I invite you to reconsider your position, you were some time ago
one of the hopes and support I was thinking of when I knew you
attended some lectures in England and when I knew from you and I
posted you and you answered me and we were supposed to meet some
time. Sadly it never happened and now you are part of the UFO
business and circus side.

It is a shame but I respect your decision to be anywhere
you want. But remember, the truth will come sooner or later.

Maussan said that last sunday and I agree with him.

I have more than 50 good friends from the Mexican Air Force, I
told them what I was working out regarding the "oil flares
theory" and I had responses from all of them as they said the
Mexican Air Force is in pretty bad shape.

>The reactions of the Mexican people were massive sending
>messages to the tv station of support to the Air Force and
>officials for opening the UFO case to the people.

That's not true, why you don't use any browser and search
for 'Maussan hoaxes or frauds'. You'll be amazed! Try!

>During the broadcast every element of the Campeche case was
>analysed, proving and confirming the unknown origin and nature
>of the phenomena. The exposition was clear and definitive and
>the hoax chapter was closed.

That is not true. You are not enough prepared to close this
cae. I invite you here, publicly to have a debate in a neutral
TV channel. Not in Televisa's nor TV Azteca.

What about in Pedro Ferriz's TV program in SKY TV channel 108?

I will arrange everything for you and Maussan and colleagues.

Here is the video, watch it carefully. Think and analyze.

http://www.alcione.org/FRAUDES/FAM/CAMPECHE/video_maussan_pozos.wmv

>It seems that Mr. Phoer is proving his ignorance of the real and
>official facts and trying to distract the attention of some
>people from the escence of the case.

You Yturria are the one who is distracting the attention from
the people who need to learn and you could open their eyes.

>It's clear that Mr. Phoer as well as some followers of the
>Mexican hoaxer are trying desesperately to revive the conspiracy
>campaign and, as the Mexicans saying goes: "They are dancing
>the dance of the fools."

Are we dancing the dance of the fools? Check the data please!
And after you do that keep the rhythm Mr. Cheerleader.


Capt. Alejandro Franz
director.nul
(non-profit)

"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the
impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the
truth? -Sherlock Holmes in The Sign of the Four -







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   Oct > Oct 1

              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 19:46:56 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 17:38:53 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 09:52:09 EDT
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:55:05 -0700
>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

><snip>

>>[NOTE: For those of you that always seem to take everything I
>>have to say as personal, I'm not trying to be critical, I'm just
>>pointing out something about investigation.])

>>The Mexico UFO/FLIR case appears to have joined the ranks of the
>>many UFO cases that are now simply topics of debate, at least
>>that how it seems for now

><snip>

>>I've watched with great pain as people jump back and forth on
>>the List attempting to coordinate video forensics, transcripts,
>>translations, and other critical evidence. I've then watched
>>folks going back and forth arguing about some of the results.
>>One of the messages I try to make loud and clear for folks out
>>there doing investigations is that investigation needs to be
>>completed before press.

><snip>

>Royce, you've said it all! Next time I see ya I'll have a copy
>of your original post and I want it autographed. :)

>Only thing I could add would be that researchers should always
>keep their tempers in their back pockets.



Greg,

Indeed. Tempers seem to rule some. I think it goes to so many
people taking everything way too personal instead of focusing on
the logical point of an issue. We should all try pulling on the
same end of the rope sometime.....


Regards,

Royce J. Myers III
UFOWATCHDOG.COM








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   Oct > Oct 1

                      Muddling Morton Makes More Claims

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 21:14:50 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 17:42:27 -0400
Subject: Muddling Morton Makes More Claims


Listers,

What follows is the bottom line about Morton and his continual
inability to distinguish fact from fiction regarding his failed
lawsuit against me.

Full story can be found at:

http://www.ufowatchdog.com/misleadingmorton.html

Coast To Coast AM radio host Art Bell seems to have a true
affinty for nonsense and Morton should be a scribe for the
insurance companies, nobody else could possibly dream up this
many excuses. Below you'll find part of what is now posted at
my website:

*************************

[Editor's note: Morton appearing on Coast To Coast AM and
essentially calling me a liar (of course not having the courage
to directly name my website) and not offering any proof is more
of the same rhetoric I and others have heard for the past few
years now.

Morton offers lots of fingerpointing, volumes of excuses,
promises of refutation, and yet not so much as a speck of proof
has surfaced. This one is easy to figure out: No evidence, no
credibility.

Morton has had more than ample opportunity to prove his claims
and does nothing but fail and fail. It really is quite bemusing
and painful to watch, akin to someone trying to run uphill with
two broken legs while screaming in pain that everything is just
fine and there's no problem at all.

If Morton wants to babble about his non-existent proof to
reassure himself, then I'm sure we can count on Coast To Coast
Am providing Morton with all the comfort he needs...no questions
asked.]

[Article snip]
______________________________________________________

THE UFOWATCHDOG.COM CHALLENGE TO SEAN DAVID MORTON

Where's The Proof?

Sean David Morton has made the rounds crying foul about losing
his lawsuit against UFOWATCHDOG.COM, a lawsuit he initiated by
making the fictitious claim that UFOWATCHDOG.COM maliciously
lied in order to cause him harm. Needless to say, Morton utterly
failed on every level to produce even a microscopic fragment of
evidence in court when challenged. It's one thing to appear on a
radio program and make claims, it is quite another to meet the
burden of proof with clear, convincing, and verifiable evidence
for all to see.

UFOWATCHDOG.COM has had its evidence put to the test - a one
million dollar test. This website has continually laid its cards
on the table for everyone to see. The time for Morton to do the
same passed long ago. In addition to several direct invitations
to comment on this website, an open invitation to Morton has
been posted here for nearly four years now.

If Morton wants to publicly continue promoting his furtive
allegations that this website "got away" with something or
didn't prove anything, then Morton is obligated to step up with
his evidence and prove his claims to the public. Morton going on
the radio and making nothing but more claims doesn't cut it.
Morton can continue pointing fingers and making baseless
accusations, none of it will change the fact that when it came
time to answer the challenge of proving his claims, Morton
showed up empty handed.

"I HAVE refuted this crap, but [ufowatchdog.com] is never going
to post it. " --Sean David Morton, August 28,2003, alleging to
have refuted the UFOWATCHDOG.COM investigation into Morton's
many, many claims. Failing to sue someone and proving something
are two entirely different matters.

Share with the public the evidence you claim to have. If Morton
wants to make claims then he should have no problem backing
them. Enough is enough. Let's see the proof.








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   Oct > Oct 1

                       Re: Hopkins' Technique - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 07:35:00 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 17:45:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique - Kaeser


>From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 10:39:22 -0400
>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

<snip>

>One problem with this test is similar to a problem I found in
>one detail of Budd's work in the "Witnessed" case. Budd shows
>the child all the cards. No matter how much he tries to control
>his face, his voice, and his body language, it's hard to believe
>he wouldn't indicate in some subliminal, very likely unspoken
>way that the alien card had more meaning than the rest. The
>child could then pick up on that, and treat the alien card as
>special, too.

Aren't Budd's 'clients' (I'm not sure that's the correct word)
usually pre-screened in some way? I know the Fund has referred
people to Budd on occasion, when the case warrants it, but by the
time Budd sees the person they already believe (or at least have
an idea) that they've had an Alien Abduction experience.

I suppose that children could be brought into the discussion
later and they might not have been previously exposed to the
concept, but each case would be different.

Depending on how this is portrayed, it can easily look as if
Budd is leading his clients under hypnosis, when the subject is
already one that both parties have agreed is the topic on the
table.


Steve








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   Oct > Oct 1

                Re: Police Report On Death Of Dr. John Mack -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 07:52:39 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 17:48:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Police Report On Death Of Dr. John Mack -


>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 11:16:21 +0100 (BST)
>Subject: Police Report On Death Of Dr. John Mack

>Metropolitan Police Report On The Death Of Dr. John Mack

>The deceased has now been formally identified as John E Mack, 74
>years (DoB 10.12.29) from Cambridge, Massachusetts. He was
>visiting the UK and was staying in the N20 area.

>A PM was held this morning at Barnet Hospital. NOT FOR
>PUBLICATION: We do not have the result at this stage.

>An inquest was opened and adjourned today (29.9.04) at Hornsey
>Coroner's Court.

>To recap:
>We are appealing for witnesses to a fatal collision in N20 on
>Tuesday 28th September. At approx. 23:25 a silver Peugeot 306
>driving west on Totteridge Lane was in collision with a
>pedestrian as he crossed the road near the junction with
>Longland Drive.

<snip>

>Officer in charge - PC Paul Cleevely.


Has anyone seen that Tom Cruise film of a novel by luminary
writer P.K. Dick, Minority Report, where the Cruise character
is duped into killing a man whose family will profit by his
death?

Is the "driver of the Peugeot", perchance, similar to the
protagonist in Minority Report?

I don't think Richard M. Dolan believes this is far from the
pale. And I have to begin to wonder, myself, given that it seems
so many paradigm challengers seem to die violently or as a
result quick cancers.

There are an abundance of clever sociopaths capable of producing
this kind of thing which I've already written about:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2001/feb/m07-003.shtml


I'm uncomfortable, in other words.

alienview.nul
   www.AlienView.net







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                      Kidnapped By Aliens? - WSJ Review

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 15:11:37 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 17:54:51 -0400
Subject: Kidnapped By Aliens? - WSJ Review


Just discovered this little gem in my files: an advance review
of Kidnapped By Aliens? (NOVA), printed in the Wall Street
Journal. Feb. 22, 1996. The firmly made-up-mind and reeking
hostility is obvious. It is fairly long, so I will provide
excerpts:


"Nova looks into the fantasies of alleged abductees now finding a
wide audience for their stories of victimization by rampaging
aliens [The film begins] with respectfully reported
introductions to the principals trafficking in these
hallucinations..."

"Here, too, is the self-styled therapist Budd Hopkins who has
made a bundle flogging books of gibberish about alien visitors
and their victims."

"We meet, not least, Harvard University psychiatrist John Mack,
now famous for his efforts to advance the cause of irrationality
in our times...

[This film] proceeds to demolish the claims of the various
hucksters, charlatans, assorted exhibitionists and garden-
variety nitwits immersed in humbug about alien abductors--and
does so with quietly killing authority.... Dorothy Rabinowitz."


I won't bother to comment on the numerous factual errors Ms.
Rabinowitz perpetrates.


 - Dick








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                          Secrecy News -- 10/01/04

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 11:16:11 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 17:57:11 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 10/01/04


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 86
October 1, 2004


**SENATE APPROVES CLASSIFICATION REVIEW BOARD
**INTELLIGENCE BUDGET FOLLIES
**INFORMATION SHARING FOR HOMELAND SECURITY (CRS)
**U.S. SPECIAL OPERATIONS FORCES (CRS)
**MILITARY ROLE IN SPACE CONTROL (CRS)
**ARKIN ON CODE NAMES


SENATE APPROVES CLASSIFICATION REVIEW BOARD

The U.S. Senate this week approved the establishment of an
Independent National Security Classification Board to review
contested classification decisions and to recommend to the
President that a particular document be declassified if it sees
fit. The President would not be obliged to accept the
recommendation.

The amendment creating the new Board, sponsored principally by
Sen. Ron Wyden (D-OR) and Sen. Trent Lott (R-Miss.), would build
upon, and supersede, the Public Interest Declassification Board
that was created four years ago but never actually convened. Its
nine members would be named by the White House and the
Congressional leadership.

The Board "will have specific authority to hear appeals of
classification decisions from specified congressional
committees," explained Sen. Susan Collins (R-Maine). "The board
would then make a recommendation to the President, which the
President could either accept or reject. If the President
rejects the board's decision, then the President would have to
send a written justification of that decision to Congress."

"It is a very finely balanced compromise that is substantial,
real, and preserves the President's right as Commander in Chief
to have the final word," said Sen. Joe Lieberman (D-CT).

The House has not acted on the matter, which was addressed in
the Senate debate on the pending intelligence reform bill. See
the transcript of the Senate action on the Independent National
Security Classification Board here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2004/s092904.html


INTELLIGENCE BUDGET FOLLIES

There are more urgent and important questions than whether the
size of the intelligence budget should be disclosed. But somehow
intelligence budget disclosure cuts to the heart of secrecy
policy and intelligence reform in a way that few other such
issues do.

That is why reformers such as the 9/11 Commission singled out
budget disclosure as a remedy for overclassification. And that
is why opponents of the Commission's proposals like Sen. Ted
Stevens (R-Alaska) have singled it out as a recommendation that
must be stopped.

On the Senate floor yesterday, Sen. Stevens worked himself into
a lather demanding that the Senate rescind its proposal to
declassify the budget total, and he accused its bipartisan
sponsors of ignorance.

"Listen to me," he said. "You have not lived with how we have
financed the intelligence community. The money is not disclosed.
It is put in parts of the budget and you don't know where it is.
It rests with Senator Inouye and me, to be honest about it, and
we make sure that is what it is. Maybe four people in the House
and Senate know where this is. You are telling us to disclose
it."

In fact, it was Sen. Stevens who was confused. The Senate budget
disclosure proposal is predicated on there being a single direct
appropriation for national intelligence. As such, it would not
entail clandestine budgeting practices. In fact, such a direct
appropriation could not effectively be kept secret.

Sen. Stevens' fiercely argued amendment was temporarily set
aside. See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2004/s093004.html

The persistent notion that budget disclosure even 50 years after
the fact would somehow reveal intelligence methods is "absurd,"
the Washington Post noted in an editorial yesterday. See
"Intelligence Failure," September 30:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A60982-
2004Sep29.html

A sworn affidavit from Acting Director of Central Intelligence
John E. McLaughlin asserting the need to withhold such half-
century old budget data contained material false statements, we
alleged in an ongoing Freedom of Information Act lawsuit, and it
should therefore be stricken from the record. See this September
22 Motion to Strike:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/foia/1947/strike.pdf

"It will be necessary to submit additional declarations in order
to fully and properly address" those allegations, the CIA told
the court yesterday, requesting an extension of time to reply
until October 20:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/foia/1947/cia093004.pdf

Just because the CIA repeatedly disclosed the total intelligence
budgets in 1997 and 1998, that doesn't mean that other annual
budget disclosures can be safely accomplished, a federal court
decided this week. In fact, it doesn't even mean that the budget
disclosures in 1997 and 1998 were safe, Judge Ricardo M. Urbina
ruled on September 29.

"It is possible that the DCI made a poor decision in deciding to
disclose the intelligence budget totals in 1997 and 1998 and
that those disclosures actually did reveal how and where
intelligence funds are transferred," Judge Urbina imaginatively
wrote, upholding a prior ruling that the 2002 intelligence
budget total is exempt from disclosure.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/foia/2002/rmu092904.pdf

A September 27 report from the Congressional Research Service
entitled "9/11 Commission Recommendations: Intelligence Budget"
is available here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL32609.pdf

A September 24 CRS report entitled "The U.S. Intelligence Budget:
A Basic Overview" is available here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RS21945.pdf


INFORMATION SHARING FOR HOMELAND SECURITY (CRS)

"Information Sharing for Homeland Security: A Brief Overview,"
Congressional Research Service, updated September 30, 2004, is
available here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/RL32597.pdf


U.S. SPECIAL OPERATIONS FORCES (CRS)

"U.S. Special Operations Forces (SOF): Background and Issues for
Congress," Congressional Research Service, updated September 28,
2004, is available here:

http://www.fas.org/man/crs/RS21048.pdf


MILITARY ROLE IN SPACE CONTROL (CRS)

"Military Role in Space Control: A Primer," Congressional
Research Service, September 23, 2004, is available here:

http://www.fas.org/man/crs/RL32602.pdf


ARKIN ON CODE NAMES

In an audacious challenge to government secrecy policy, a
forthcoming new book by independent analyst William M. Arkin
exposes and explains thousands of code names of secret
government programs and activities.

"From ABLE ALLY to ZODIAC BEAUCHAMP, this book identifies more
than 3,000 code names and details the plans and missions for
which they stand."

The resulting compilation lays bare for the first time much of
the secret infrastructure of defense and intelligence today.

Arkin, who was once a military intelligence officer, is an
extraordinarily adept researcher with an enviable network of
military and intelligence contacts. Over the past two decades or
so, he has repeatedly expanded the boundaries of public
knowledge on nuclear weapons and national security policy.

His latest book, Code Names, is perhaps the most concentrated
act of defiance of official secrecy policies since Howard
Morland wrote about "The H Bomb Secret" in The Progressive in
1979, drawing a government injunction to block publication.

"Code Names: Deciphering U.S. Military Plans, Programs and
Operations in the 9/11 World" by William M. Arkin will be
published in January 2005 by Steerforth (www.steerforth.com), a
small press that publishes big books of surprising diversity and
literary discernment. See:

http://tinyurl.com/68ya3



_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

Secrecy News has an RSS feed at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood.nul
voice: (202) 454-4691







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                      Odd UFOs Reported Over Wisconsin

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 18:02:12 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 18:02:12 -0400
Subject: Odd UFOs Reported Over Wisconsin




Source: The Wisconsin Rapids Daily Tribune

http://www.wisinfo.com/dailytribune/wrdtlocal/285017318523278.shtml

10-01-04

Odd Lights Seen Over Marshfield


By Matt Conn
For the Daily Tribune

MARSHFIELD - So it's unidentified, and it flies, and it's an
object - that simply means it's inexplicable, not that it's a
UFO filled with little green women.

In the past two weeks, Marshfield-area residents have reported
unusual lights and objects in the night sky, some accompanied by
what looked like fighter jets.

On the night of Sept. 23, Eric Dickmann sat at a bonfire with
friends and family at his home in the town of Day. Three lights
in a triangle burned bright in the sky for about four seconds
and then they disappeared, he said last week.

Ten minutes later, the bright lights reappeared and moved the
same way, Dickmann said. He said that what the eight people at
the bonfire saw that night was the same as what his son saw the
Thursday before, while driving south from Spencer. That sighting
was accompanied by what looked like a fighter jet, he said.

Dan Young of the town of Cary, chief photographer at the
Marshfield News-Herald, said Thursday that he had seen similar
lights on several occasions, as recently as Tuesday. The lights
moved close together, then went away, he said.

"Tuesday night, the white lights came close together, and I
could see aircraft lights, kind of like warning lights," he
said. "I thought this was probably something that most likely
could be easily explained after the second time. It looked like,
my guess is, helicopters that came together in the sky and went
their separate ways."

About 95 percent of all Americans have heard or read something
about unidentified flying objects, and 57 percent believe alien
craft are real, according to a Central Intelligence Agency
report in 1997.

Former President Jimmy Carter and the late President Ronald
Reagan said they had seen UFOs, according to the CIA.

But the lights in the night sky in the Marshfield area are most
likely military aircraft on regular training missions, said Sgt.
Katie Dahlke, an airfield manager at Volk Field.

The direction Dickmann and Young were looking when they saw
lights in the sky are consistent with two military operations
areas, Falls 2 MOA and Volk West MOA.

"Throughout the month we've had various aircraft in various
training," she said. "We have had night flying going on with F-
16s. It's happened a lot in the month of September."

During these missions, six F-16s are flying, which could explain
the three aircraft in formation area residents have reported,
she said. Other craft have included cargo planes, C-130s, and
helicopters, UH-60s.

Though some area residents have reported seeing something the
size of a hospital in the sky, Dahlke said they were probably
seeing formations of aircraft. Even the C-130 cargo plane is
"certainly not as big as a hospital," she said.

She said nothing out of the ordinary had been sighted in the
night sky by the highly trained aviators. Nothing unusual was
spotted on radar in the last month, but she added that it has
been a time of heavy military flight training.



[UFO UpDates thanks Greg Boone for the lead]







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   Oct > Oct 1

                        Re: Blimp-Like Object - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 12:50:07 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 18:04:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Blimp-Like Object - King


>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 08:58:03 -0500
>Subject: Re: Blimp-Like Object

<snip>

>The dirigible, and it is the dirigible mentioned, at
>fkbureau.org is from the book cited there, and is as the book
>represents it - a dramatic photo by Stieglitz, enhanced perhaps.

>I don't want anyone thinking we were slovenly or cavalier with
>our reproduction of the photograph in question.


Hi Rich,

No slight intended. Your web image is as the book depicts. For
many in this forum, the best image in any analysis is one that
best represents the original. I was merely pointing out that the
original image includes more, and the original image attributes
are more striking, from a photographic perspective.

But beyond that, the image depicts what must have been a
fantastic sight in the skies of those bygone days.

Surely the observations of mans early ventures into flight in
part laid the seed for today's fascination with what is up
there...both anomalous and mundane.

Stieglitz' photograph provides an apt metaphor for refutation of
the argument that if man were meant to fly, God would have
adorned him with wings.

The airship, a construct of man, blotting out the suns light in
the same frame with a cloud bank similarly blotting out the sun.
The works of man "eclipsing" that of God...a man-made cloud, if
you will. An accurate if crude description of these early
airships, indeed.

Stieglitz himself was never satisfied that his photographs told
the story that was to be told. This image however tells a far
larger story than a simple documentary image of a blimp. See the
other airship photos of the time and you'll see what I mean.

There is a quiet, powerful reverence in this image.


Best Regards,

Kyle







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                   Re: Lakenheath-Bentwaters 1956 - Shough

From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul>
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 18:01:07 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 18:06:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Lakenheath-Bentwaters 1956 - Shough


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 12:49:58 EDT
>Subject: Re: Lakenheath-Bentwaters 1956

>>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:48:41 +0100
>>Subject: Lakenheath-Bentwaters 1956

>>The "Lakenheath Collaboration" website was launched quite a while
>>ago now at:

>http://www.parcellular.fsnet.co.uk/Lakenheath.htm

>>I've wondered if its association with the dread names of Clarke
>>and Roberts is the cause of some reflex aversion on the part of
>>listerions? But no, there has been - so far as I am aware -
>>absolutely zero response from any of the so-called
>>skeptibunkers, as well as the so-called ETH believers. People
>>must be keeping their opinions to themselves for subtler
>>reasons.

>Absolutely! I don't have time right now for a longer posting
>but I do want to see if Clarke et al. are going to jump in on
>this first, and see what they say.

Hi Brad,

Knowing that Dave Clarke had unsubscribed I cc'd him. No
response yet due to commitments, but he tells me that he won't
be responding in this forum anyway. Whether the others will or
not I couldn't say, but I doubt it.

Frankly I doubt anyone is listening. When constructing the site I
got sick of trying to chivvy out of them some substantive defence
of an opinion on the various contentious issues we'd argued about
en route, but apart from Dave none of them had anything to say.

>>The apparent absence of interest in this project isn't entirely
>>surprising in view of the fact that it doesn't espouse any
>>clear-cut theory about what happened, and the complicated many-
>>layered structure means that it isn't necessarily easy for
>>others to enlist the facts it contains in support of one. But
>>I'd like to know what people feel is the status of this case
>>today. I've posted this rather long discussion both to inform
>>the list as to some history behind the Lakenheath website
>>project and to encourage a little debate about some of the
>>outstanding issues.
>
>What is the bottom line? No one can tell by pouring over
>endless details.

Why not? I have to. You have to. I mean, the live issues are
much too complicated to be summed up in some facile general
conclusion. I think this was the problem for some in the
Collaboration: At one time it had all seemed quite simple and
sewn up; in the end it was just too difficult to keep track of
all the implications. So those endless details are the meat of
the case. As a sophisticated analyst you know how in cases like
this, or Trindade say, you find that apparently-quite-minor
issues, dependent on some subtle interpretation of ambiguous
facts, can sit right in the significant branching point of a
decision-tree, and can't easily be generalised away. You need to
keep a huge amount of info in the front of your mind and in
proper balance, which is where a cross-referenced website comes
in so handy.

>I have a very simple bottom line and am surprised you
>do not, unless you are holding it in reserve.

Is the bottom line so obvious then? I'm not just being coy. If
it is obvious, then no one needs me to spell it out. If it isn't
so obvious, well maybe that's simply what the facts are saying:
It isn't (yet) obvious what really happened, because the bottom
line isn't a simple sum.

So as far as I'm concerned - and in this I absolutely agreed
with Dave Clarke's approach - the object here was to present the
facts as transparently as possible, with background commentaries
clearly separated from the archive and qualified as opinions.
The site is full of my opinions on specific issues, but I don't
think that anybody is going to give much of a hoot for my
general opinion about a 'bottom line'. What would that do but
confirm the prejudices of those who already happen to agree with
it? I doubt it would even do that.

In this game we don't have an academic structure where a
consensus of authority figures can declare what the truth is and
relieve the rest of society of responsibility for its own
critical thought. That's how normal science operates, sure, but
until such a mainstream reference group exists we are all on our
own, dealing as best we can with such facts as there are. If
there were such a reference group I'm damn sure I wouldn't be a
member of it anyway!

I've read plenty of bottom lines over the years. Some ETH-
sympathisers probably knew everything they needed to know in
1968, just as some sceptics decided that they knew everything
they needed to know in 1996. As I tried to indicate in my post,
had the history of the UFOIN Lakenheath project not veered in
the direction it did in 2001 and (so to speak) tripped over me,
landing in an infuriating tangle of ambiguities and
uncertainties, I think there would have been a rather clear
bottom line. I don't think you would have welcomed it.

>Your superb
>analysis and massive data presentation surely has led to some
>bottom line conclusions on the key elements of the case, the
>elements that have made it a classic.

Thanks for that. "Some" conclusions, on a number of key
elements, yes. And they are there for everyone to read. If they
add up to a simple bottom line, or not, is for everyone to
decide. If they take some digging out, then this is just where a
debate in a forum like this could be so useful. What I can do,
rather than expatiate, is offer links and commentary on specific
issues, so as to help anyone who wants to do so to navigate
through the arguments.

So if you want to suggest a definite bottom line then I'm very
happy to talk about it, but meantime it seems to me that there
are several figures entered on the balance sheet that can only
be pencilled in. I'd like to see some debate about these
subordinate issues as well.


Best regards,

Martin








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             Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 15:43:07 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 18:09:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:35:59 -0500
>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 18:48:14 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

<snip>

>>But anyway, your suggestion that it was sitting in a box with
>>papers and much weight on it from the time the hoaxer put it in
>>the box until Shandara found it doesn't ring true to me. I have
>>examined the box... and looked at the other file folders (which,
>>as I recall, had many pink withdrawal sheets... documents never
>>given to the archives). The documents in folders stand on edge.
>>The file box holds the documents and folders vertically. There
>>is no weight or pressure.

>Dr. Maccabee,

>I'm surprised at you. Surely you must not believe this.

>A sheet of paper... creased by prior folding... placed into a
>hanging file folder

Nice reasoning but based on the wrong assumption. Was not a
hanging filefolder. These folders stand on edge in the file box.
The file box is roughly 4 inches wide by a foot high by 11
inches from from to back. The bottom of the box is thus about 4
inches by 11 inches (I never measured a box so the measurements
I estimated here could be off by a couple of inches). A file
folder sits on its edge in a box, typically on the fold. The box
I examined was not tightly packed with file folders. The papers
inside the file folders were on edge. The CT memo, being between
folders, was also on edge.

>with other sheets of paper, will be
>flattened by the pressure exerted on the sides of the folders'
>contents. Since a file folder is simply a folded sheet of card
>stock, the bottom is in the form of a valley. Gravity pulls the
>folder and its contents down, which compresses the lower edges
>of all the documents in a folder. The downward pressure of
>gravity also draws the hanging means (hooks) closer together. It
>is these forces in combination which compress the contents. This
>is easily confirmed with a small file cabinet or box, a hanging
>file folder, a stack of paper, and a previously folded sheet of
>onionskin stationery. Mine didn't have a noticeable crease after
>3 hours.

>If the noted document was the only folded sheet in its vicinity,
>the pressure of the adjacent documents would be greatest where
>the creases were the deepest, resulting in even more rapid
>flattening at those points.

>Weight from above is not required to un-crease a sheet of
>onionskin paper. Gravity and a little time are sufficient.

>Even if the folders were not hanging, but stood on edge in the
>box, the contents would not stand, but slump to one side or
>both, again applying pressure to anything not flat already. The
>creases would be pressed out of the onionskin by adjacent
>sheets..."peer pressure". :)

As I mentioned above, the box was not "packed tight" with
folders. There was no pressure from files or documents that were
standing on edge beside the document.







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   Oct > Oct 1

                        Re: Blimp-Like Object - Shell

From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 13:04:41 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 18:12:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Blimp-Like Object - Shell


>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 08:58:03 -0500
>Subject: Re: Blimp-Like Object

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 13:19:22 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Blimp-Like Object

<snip>

>>>>Forwarded to the UFO UpDates List for its consideration and

>>>>http://www.fkbureau.org/

>>>I believe that's a picture of "The Baldwin Dirigible."

>>Yes, and not the whole photograph. The image is striking in its
>>full form for the harsh contrast which accentuates both the
>>cloud edge and the craft.

>>The inset on the cited web page is washed out and much less
>>impressive.

>The dirigible, and it is the dirigible mentioned, at
>fkbureau.org is from the book cited there, and is as the book
>represents it - a dramatic photo by Stieglitz, enhanced perhaps.

White Dwarf, built for the comedian Gallagher in 1984:

http://home.teleport.com/~reedg/Bill_Jeff.jpg








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   Oct > Oct 2

              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 16:06:58 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 06:15:32 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 09:52:09 EDT
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - Boone

>>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:55:05 -0700
>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

><snip>

>>The Mexico UFO/FLIR case appears to have joined the ranks of the
>>many UFO cases that are now simply topics of debate, at least
>>that how it seems for now

<snip>

>>I've watched with great pain as people jump back and forth on
>>the List attempting to coordinate video forensics, transcripts,
>>translations, and other critical evidence. I've then watched
>>folks going back and forth arguing about some of the results.
>>One of the messages I try to make loud and clear for folks out
>>there doing investigations is that investigation needs to be
>>completed before press.

>Royce, you've said it all! Next time I see ya I'll have a copy
>of your original post and I want it autographed. :)

>Only thing I could add would be that researchers should always
>keep their tempers in their back pockets.

This is not yet closed case. At the very least the radar target
is not yet explained. And there are still questions about the
oil platforms.







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   Oct > Oct 2

                Re: Mysterious Treefalls in Patagonian Forest

From: Paul Anderson <paulanderson.nul>
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 17:02:40 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 06:19:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Mysterious Treefalls in Patagonian Forest


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 00:22:35 -0400
>Subject: Re: Mysterious Treefalls in Patagonian Forest Argentina

>When trees are struck by lightning they can explode from the
>pressure of steam. Where does the steam come from? Well, the
>tree (if healthy) is full of water and the electric current
>(thousands of amperes at high voltage) heats the water in
>milliseconds and turns it to high pressure steam. The immense
>sudden internal pressure can break the tree trunk.

>Now, I'm not saying that that lightning struck the trees, but I
>am suggesting that perhaps some "phenomenon" cause huge electric
>currents in the trees and these currents caused the tree to
>"explode" or break in the weakest area of each tree.

>And, incidently, this might have something to do with crop
>circle bending, also. People (e.g. "Lefty" ) have suggested
>microwave heating at the base of a stalk that softens the stalk
>and may cause expulsion cavities by heating the fluid inside a
>stalk. I'm pointing out that even a unidirectional flow of
>electricity could cause the same expulsion effect. tree trunk


Hi Bruce,

Good points. This update from Pravda makes reference to
"geophysical meteors" similar to high-energy ball lightning:

http://www.rense.com/general57/lele.htm

(keeping in mind this is Pravda, not Nature or Scientific
American, etc.!)

Microwave heating has long been the leading theory re the
expulsion cavities in crop circle stalks or something along the
lines of a sudden, intense "electrical discharge" perhaps? I'm
just wondering if these two effects, in crop plants and trees,
might be related or even the same thing? The ones in these
cattle corn stalks are the largest I've seen so far; they look
just like ones in wheat, barley, etc. only much larger (up to
about 1/2 inch across). An agricultural plant expert here in
Canada is still looking at the ones we found from last year and
now this year, and so far is still as puzzled as we are. There
may well be a prosaic explanation, but if so, we just don't know
what it is yet. Or there may not be...

I would love to see these tree trunks close-up also, as to how
they were "frayed" on the one side as described.

(And thanks also Scott, for the photos you e-mailed me,
much appreciated!)

Paul







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                Re: Giant Fly Photographed Attacking Mt. St.

From: Patrick Knowles <pknowles1.nul>
Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 18:15:25 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 06:26:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Giant Fly Photographed Attacking Mt. St.


>From: Bob Shell <bob.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 15:17:41 -0400
>Subject: Giant Fly Photographed Attacking Mt. St. Helens

>Now the truth can be told about those "tremors" volcanologists
>have been reporting for the last week.

>Here we have absolute photographic proof that the giant,
>ten-ton flies reported frequently around Mt. St. Helens (and
>which feature prominently in local Native American folklore) are
>in fact real.

>http://www.photodump.com/direct/Fnord/mshvolcanocam.jpg

>Submitted by;

>Bob Shell, Director
>Nearsight Institute

Speaking on condition of anonymity, a USGS scientist had this to
say about the flies:

Some have maintained that the volcanic activity of Mt. St.
Helens, past and present, is actually caused by the presence of
these giant flies.

It is theorized that geomagnetic perturbations deep within the
earth's crust are set off by resonance with the buzzing of the
flies' wings, causing very rapid fault-shifting vibrations
("fault buzz") that generate enormous geological stresses
beneath the mountain.

Others believe that the flies are in some way attracted by
natural volcanic activity of the kind typified by Mt. St.
Helens.

According to one view, the flies' mating cycle is synchronized
to periodic shifts from volcanic dormancy to activity. This
would mean that the flies have a very long life span.

All we know for certain is that they are observed on and around
the mountain during periods of high geological stress and
volcanism. In May of 1980 we were seeing thousands of these
things.


PK







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                  Aliens Caught On St. Helens Live Web Cam?

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 04:41:19 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 06:27:40 -0400
Subject: Aliens Caught On St. Helens Live Web Cam?


http://members.aol.com/evolbaby/sthelensalien.html

Yes, it's funny.


Best,

Greg







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                       Strange Northern Ohio Activity

From: Kenny Young <ufo.nul>
Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 02:40:29 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 06:36:30 -0400
Subject: Strange Northern Ohio Activity


Strange Rumors of Northern Ohio activity
September 22, 2004

Unusual situation reported in Northern Ohio

Apparently on Wednesday morning, September 22, numerous callers
to Cleveland, Ohio radio station 1100 WTAM reported a rainbow-
like aerial situation similar to a 'Sundog'. The situation
complicates, however, as others begin describing unusual
contrails, jet scrambles and other military activity all across
northern Ohio. One caller, Amin, describes an unusual light seen
the night before Sept. 22 while driving home from Detroit around
1:00 a.m. while another caller, Kevin, claims the similar
sighting of a 'bluish green light' around 10:35 p.m. on Route 8
near the Stow, Ohio area (north of Akron). At daybreak the
morning of Sept. 22, northeastern Ohio skies were allegedly
'ripped' with jet vapor trails.

One caller, Don, is a truck driver with a route between
Cleveland and Youngstown, and alleges that his GPS (Global
Positioning System) that pinpoints his mapping location on a
laptop computer, began malfunctioning between 8 and 9:00 a.m.,
although working flawlessly beforehand. Stranger still, another
caller named Dave claimed that Route 12, a south/north road out
of Fostoria, Ohio, was blocked by "tons" of army trucks and
traffic was being diverted.

This activity was briefly referenced on the Cleveland UFO E-list
by George Pindroh, but with no new information. Secondly, I did
receive three E-mail advisement's regarding this activity from
various contacts, along with one copied message from 'June' that
states: " I talked with my Mom today, and she told me that on
channel 19 at 5 pm, Wed., Sept. 22, the TV news anchor said that
there were hundreds of reports of UFOs all over the lakefront
area of Ohio. He said that after the commercial breaks he would
give the details. My mom was very curious and waited to hear the
news. When the news came back on, NOTHING. So the story was
squashed. I talked to a few people at work today, and yes, they
had heard about the sightings. Everyone was talking about it. So
lots of people here in Ohio heard about it before the news was
suppressed. According to my Mom, the TV anchor said that people
saw what looked like a huge cloud with rainbow colors along with
many UFO's that were not disguising themselves as clouds. I also
learned that fighter jets were sent out after them." (Note, I do
not know June who copied me on her comments to a few other
researchers, but she signed her name with the addition of "In
The Light," and I cannot vouch for her comments -- KY)

Thirdly, a comment about the WTAM radio activity was filed to
the National UFO Reporting Center (N.U.F.O.R.C.) website, but
also containing no new information.

Further, Mrs. Donnie Blessing, Southern Ohio State Director for
MUFON (Mutual UFO Network) spoke with a gentleman from Cleveland
named Ken who contacted the Cincinnati UFO Hotline (513 - 588 -
 4548) on September 28th to advise of a UFO sighting in Canada
on September 21st. While taking the information, Ken advised
that his wife knew of the strange reports on WTAM radio station
on September 22, and further informed of UFOs and numerous
(presumably) responding military helicopters seen near the Perry
Nuclear Power Station. This specific detail has been considered
most intriguing. At this time, we know of no substantive
information to link this reference of a UFO situation near the
Perry Nuclear Power Station to the September 22nd activity
reported by WTAM radio.

Oddly, there was previous UFO activity reported 'on the record'
by a Lake County law officer referenced in conjunction with the
Perry Nuclear Facility in June of 2004, that report is located
online at: http://home.fuse.net/ufo/willoughby04.html

So unusual was this September 22nd activity that radio station
WTAM created a special web page for the situation. The page
contains audio clips of the many callers that are available from
the exact URL location: http://www.wtam.com/triv/index.html
along with the following comment by talk show host Mike
Trivisonno:


"What Is Happening In The Skys Over Northern Ohio?"

On Wednesday morning September 22nd, 2004 a caller rang the WTAM
morning show, Wills & Coleman In The Morning, to report the
sightings of strange colors in the sky. Other callers reported
seeing the same thing while others tried to describe and/or
explain the image.

Afternoon host Mike Trivisonno was curious and ventured into his
backyard to see for himself. Although he did not see the lights
he did see something peculiar, jet contrails all over the
crystal clear Cleveland sky. The contrails extended in all
directions as far as the eyes can see. The contrails formed a
checkerboard pattern. In all of Trivisonno's years on this
planet he had never seen anything like it. Or maybe it was he
just never noticed it. He played the phone calls from that
morning and mentioned his observations on his #1 rated afternoon
show that day and asked the question �What the heck is going on�

The callers responded. Below are some of the calls that were
made to the show on the 22nd. While Triv's question was never
definitively answered, conclusions can be made. What do you
think?

We do not know how long the WTAM web page and subsequent audio
clips of the callers will remain posted and active.

If you have any information regarding a UFO situation taking
place near the Perry Nuclear Power Station involving military
helicopters or a jet scramble in response to a perceived UFO
situation near the Lake County facility, please call at the
contact information given below.

Filed,
October 2, 2004
Kenny Young

--
UFO Research
http://home.fuse.net/ufo
Cincinnati UFO Hotline = (513) 588 - 4548








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   Oct > Oct 2

                     Re: Tribute To Dr John Mack - Hale

From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 12:47:20 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 10:36:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Tribute To Dr John Mack - Hale


>From: Brenda Denzler <denzlerb.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 20:20:25 -0400
>Subject: Re: Tribute To Dr John Mack

>I'm sure you're right. However, I predict that within six
>months, someone somewhere in UFO-land will stop seeking and
>start "channeling John Mack" and giving us all kinds of "truth"
>about UFOs, alien abductions, crop circles, mutes, the
>government cover-up, and what *really* happened at Roswell.

Hi,

That is the great ufology we are in, but happily we are not all
programmed the same way!


Roy







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                Re: Kidnapped By Aliens? - WSJ Review - Chace

From: David Chace <davidwchace.nul>
Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 05:24:46 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 10:39:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Kidnapped By Aliens? - WSJ Review - Chace


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 15:11:37 +0000
>Subject: Kidnapped By Aliens? - WSJ Review

>Just discovered this little gem in my files: an advance review
>of Kidnapped By Aliens? (NOVA), printed in the Wall Street Journal.
Feb. 22, 1996. The firmly made-up-mind and reeking hostility is
>obvious.

<snip>

>I won't bother to comment on the numerous factual errors Ms.
>Rabinowitz perpetrates.

I had a definite emotional reaction to the excerpts Dick Hall
presented. The emotions that such language and such
ostentatiously displayed misconceptions bring out in me are not
pleasant ones, and my favorite Jedi Master warned that they lead
to the Dark Side.

The verbal violence that Ms. Rabinowitz does to people of
demonstrated conscience, courage and intellectual honesty
strikes an emotional chord.

I recall, however, a similar emotional type reaction I once
experienced: my initial skeptical reaction back in the late-
 eighties when I first heard reports of people who had
experienced multiple UFO abductions over the course of their
lives. At that time, based on my knowledge of the Hill and
Walton cases, I had assumed that UFO abductions were a purely
random or opportunistic kind of event. The gut-level reaction I
had on having that belief challenged was an uncomfortable
feeling of resistance that welled up inside me and could have
overwhelmed my faculty of reason, had my mind been less
resilient. However, as it so happened my humility and my
awareness of my own lack of knowledge regarding what actually
goes on with this phenomenon was sufficient, so I let the
feeling pass and continued to listen with an open mind. On the
issue of multiple abductions, that skeptical feeling hasn't
bothered me since. Overall, in fact, it has become almost a non-
issue, because I have a very large gray basket I use when
listening to experiencers, and I think my mind has become more
flexible, more capable of bending and stretching than it was
before I began talking to experiencers.

The Rabinowitz piece is almost pure opinion and it does reek of
hostility. Indeed, it reeks of an unreasonably intense
hostility, even given the author's allegations and offensive
characterizations. As for perpetrating "numerous factual
errors," that is difficult to analyze, because one has to
extract the ideas that the author intends to convey as facts
from her strong rhetoric and ill-conceived opinions. At the very
least, however, the author presents several opinions and
interpretations that she does not back up (at least not in the
excerpts presented).

I have to wonder what motivated her to write this piece, and why
she feels so strongly about this subject. How did she form her
opinions? What was she attempting to accomplish by writing this?
Was she being intentionally inflammatory? Was she trying to pick
a fight with someone? Why would she want to harm people who
report or investigate UFO abductions?

This piece perpetuates a climate of emotion and ridicule that is
not conducive to the advancement of knowledge regarding the UFO
abduction phenomenon, or to the well being of those who are
coping with UFO abduction experiences. Of course, one could
easily argue that the NOVA program the author was reviewing does
the same thing. Why? I don�t think we will ever really
understand the answer to that question, regardless of how much
we discuss the issue or what resources we bring to bear upon it.


David W. Chace








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                     Re: Hopkins' Technique - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 13:38:28 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 10:41:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique - McGonagle


Dear List,

Thanks to those who have responded to my posts. There are a few
things which I should address.

Firstly, to those complaining effectively that this has all been
discussed before, etc., the topic might have been discussed, but
as far as I can see, the specific examples of his technique that
I am critical of have not been:


1. Hopkins insistance that Ryan construct a story about the
alien image, in spite of the fact that Ryan clearly did not
recognise the image. This is an overt example of leading a
witness, surely? Furthermore, it isn't dependent on how the
producer edited the final programme, no matter how the show was
cut, Hopkins still did this.

2. Hopkins' encouragment of Ryan when the story starts to follow
a line that he wants it to take and Ryan looks to him for some
kind of cue, eg, the removal of a sleeping person from their
bedroom and Hopkins' remark "That's a good story". Again, there
is no evidence of editing in this sequence, this was Hopkins'
actual response in the situation described.

3. Hopkins again overtly encourages a particular story-line with
his remark "That's right." in direct response to Ryan's comment
"I bet somebody took me". There is again no signs of any
editing of this segment.


Now I am not a trained Psychologist, and I have never been an
editor of any Psychological journal, but as a parent I can see
how suggestive this technique is. Does anyone care to defend
points #1-3 above specifically, or are you satisfied that this
has all been discussed before and the nasty producer is
responsible for the above points (not Hopkins himself)?

The differences between adult and child Psychology can be
compared to driving a school bus - would you let your child get
onto a school bus if you knew that the driver is only qualified
to drive a car? He can obviously drive things with four wheels,
a steering wheel, a clutch, accelerator, and brake.


Regards,

Joe








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                 Re: Lakenheath-Bentwaters 1956 - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 13:58:18 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 10:44:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Lakenheath-Bentwaters 1956 - McGonagle


>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:48:41 +0100
>Subject: Lakenheath-Bentwaters 1956

>The "Lakenheath Collaboration" website was launched quite a
>while ago now at:

>http://www.parcellular.fsnet.co.uk/Lakenheath.htm

<snip>


Hello Martin,

I have visited the site a number of times, but find it very like
a maze - to try and read articles sequentially, and keep track of
those which you have already read over several visits is
confounding!

My usual habit when it comes to reading volumes of material like
this is to print it off, and read it in short chunks. I tried
that but found that I missed some of the articles (possibly due
to finger trouble, or printer problems).

Consequently, the site exceeded my frustration threshold, and I
have given up until such a time that I can have a clear run at it
without any interruptions. (Christmas Day seems quite likely!).


Cheers,

Joe








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                Re: Strange Northern Ohio Activity - Elliott

From: John Elliott <townsville3.nul>
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 10:44:35 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 10:58:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Strange Northern Ohio Activity - Elliott


>From: Kenny Young <ufo.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>)" <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 02:40:29 -0400
>Subject: Strange Northern Ohio Activity

>Strange Rumors of Northern Ohio activity
>September 22, 2004

>Unusual situation reported in Northern Ohio

<snip>

I live in the Cleveland area. There are lots of contrails,
especially during the time period in question, but normally
there are alot. But I am not talking about the kind that just
disappear after the plane passes, but the kind that get larger
until they look like a cirrus cloud bank. Damn eyesores!

There is a major airport in the area and its a major air
corridor so you would expect lots of air activity, right? But it
seems like there are alot more contrails than in the past. Is it
a sign of different fuel composition or atmospheric properties?

You see alot of sundogs around here, obviously in the morning or
evening. Not too impressive to actually report, kind of pretty
compared to contrails. Might as well report a rainbow.

Odd contrails that turn on and off (dashes) do appear
infrequently. But this could be written off as differences in
temperature, right?

Odd contrails did happen during the period in question in which
~90 degree turns (hard turns) were made at high altitude.
Commercial craft don't do that much mainly to save fuel and not
to disrupt passengers. So this implies some military activity
during the period in question.

An odd feature of contrails is that they appear based on Sun
angle (illumination). If you drive a few miles, the contrail you
are looking at disappears, while a different set shows up.

I listened to the radio station guy, Triv, but he is really not
the best person (a sports reporter) to cover this story. He was
hyping it up, having anybody call who had seen anything (one guy
reported seeing 2 - not 1 - satellites at night,"something he
never sees"! And Triv reported this as some piece of the huge
puzzle).

Anyway, I don't see how this relates to UFOs. Maybe a miltary
operation, but its not our business and if they want it secret,
then why not? Do we have to know about ALL training exercises?
Lets hope our military can practice and develop to defend
against our many non-alien enemies. I doubt we have any defense
against alien-type UFOs (if there are any ) so huge military
activites against them are pointless.








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   Oct > Oct 2

                 Re: Dr. James E. McDonald & The ETH - Allan

From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 15:53:42 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 12:53:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Dr. James E. McDonald & The ETH - Allan


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 11:32:00 -0500
>Subject: Dr. James E. McDonald & The ETH

>Dr. James E. McDonald & The ETH - A Review of Wendy Connors'
>Sixth Compilation of Ufological Aural History

>by Alfred Lehmberg
>www.AlienView.net

<snip>

Whew! This must be the tirade to end all tirades.

This guy almost accuses Phil Klass of murder - or should I say
causing a suicide - using some extraordinary vocabulary to do
so.

I have not seen, or heard, the Wendy Connors CD so I shall make
no comment on it or on Dr. James McDonald.

But it is amazing that just because Lord Dowding (a passionate
believer in Adamski & Fry, to say nothing of spiritualism as
well), and General MacArthur were ETHers, we must assume,
presumably because of their high military standing, that their
views on UFOs should be taken seriously. MacArthur "holds forth
on UFOs and extraterrestrials", does he? And what did McA know
of ETs or UFOs? Nothing at all. What did Dowding know of ETs?
Same answer. Just personal beliefs, nothing else.

As for Willy Ley, he had some very skeptical views on UFOs in
later years, so when did he change his mind , and why?

(And don't try and pin that volte-face on Klass, either. Klass
had not even entered the UFO arena then.)

McDonald's 'for sale' price tag to a foreign government is said
to be a "high nine figures"? - meaning over half a billion
dollars in the 1960s! Really, are you serious or joking? Or are
you referring to nine binary figures?

This easily beats the transfer fees of the top UK footballers in
2004.

Do keep on with those exclamation marks. You might beat the
record.


CDA







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                   Re: Lakenheath-Bentwaters 1956 - Shough

From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul>
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 16:24:50 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 12:54:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Lakenheath-Bentwaters 1956 - Shough


>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 13:58:18 +0100
>Subject: Re: Lakenheath-Bentwaters 1956

>>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:48:41 +0100
>>Subject: Lakenheath-Bentwaters 1956

>>The "Lakenheath Collaboration" website was launched quite a
>>while ago now at:

>>http://www.parcellular.fsnet.co.uk/Lakenheath.htm

>Hello Martin,

>I have visited the site a number of times, but find it very like
>a maze - to try and read articles sequentially, and keep track of
>those which you have already read over several visits is
>confounding!

Hi Joe

I appreciate your frustration. Complicated isn't it? It all
looked so much simpler once upon a time! ;-) Thanks for taking
an interest, and I hope you do persevere - without ruining your
Christmas. The complete list of pages at:

http://www.parcellular.fsnet.co.uk/page-index.htm

might be useful.


Best

Martin shough








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   Oct > Oct 2

             Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 11:16:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 12:57:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 15:43:07 -0400
>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:35:59 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

<snip>

>As I mentioned above, the box was not "packed tight" with
>folders. There was no pressure from files or documents that were
>standing on edge beside the document.

Hi Dr. Maccabee,

Thanks for the clarification. I was under the mistaken assumption
that these boxes were filled one after the other, rather than some
being left only partially full. Seems an unusual way to archive
massive amounts of paper, but there's the government for you...
use the maximum amount of space and the maximum number of boxes
available, rather than efficiently packing them tight. What was I
thinking? :)

I stand corrected.

One question remains... if the sheet of paper was standing on
edge, loose in the folder with no pressure from adjacent
documents, how was it missed by the examiners tasked with
numbering and recording the documents? My understanding up to
now was that it was either stuck to another sheet or between two
folders. This would at least imply pressure from adjacent items.
If not, then the examiners were rather sloppy in their work,
which is not unbelievable but a little too convenient vis a vis
the subsequent questioned provenance of the document. Almost as
if it were intentionally left with questionable traits...which
would be questioned.

Of course, this is entirely couched in the fact that this
document wasn't found by accident. Some shadowy figure dropped
cryptic hints with a person or persons sure to follow up on
them. One un-numbered creased document found in a box (where it
does not belong) of numbered documents at the direction of an
unknown person via a postcard... my 15 year old rolled his eyes
and said, "There's nothing a little fishy about that?"

This story has more creases in it than a morning-after prom tux.

But it could be real. And that is why my hair keeps falling out,
methinks.


Best Regards,

Kyle








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   Oct > Oct 2

              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 12:59:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 12:59:15 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 20:33:34 -0700
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>From: Santiago Yturria <syturria.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 12:56:53 -0500
>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

<snip>

>Why Dr. Bruce Maccabee name was called last sunday as to be a
'>hoaxer promoter'? See:
>http://www.alcione.org/FRAUDES/FAM/CAMPECHE/Maussan092604.wmv

Regarding this Mexico video case I have stated no conclusion
publicly other than that the radar target seems to be
unusual/unidentified. I have cautioned that it is premature to
arrive at a conclusion regarding the video because the data
which would confirm any hypothesis are not yet available. We are
still waiting for an experiment I proposed months ago during a
time of comparable weather (including wind direction, ground and
upper altitude).








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   Oct > Oct 2

                        Re: Hopkins' Technique - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 12:00:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 13:29:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique - King


>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 13:38:28 +0100
>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

<snip>

>1. Hopkins insistance that Ryan construct a story about the
>alien image, in spite of the fact that Ryan clearly did not
>recognise the image. This is an overt example of leading a
>witness, surely? Furthermore, it isn't dependent on how the
>producer edited the final programme, no matter how the show was
>cut, Hopkins still did this.

>2. Hopkins' encouragment of Ryan when the story starts to follow
>a line that he wants it to take and Ryan looks to him for some
>kind of cue, eg, the removal of a sleeping person from their
>bedroom and Hopkins' remark "That's a good story". Again, there
>is no evidence of editing in this sequence, this was Hopkins'
>actual response in the situation described.

>3. Hopkins again overtly encourages a particular story-line with
>his remark "That's right." in direct response to Ryan's comment
>"I bet somebody took me". There is again no signs of any
>editing of this segment.

<snip>

>The differences between adult and child Psychology can be
>compared to driving a school bus - would you let your child get
>onto a school bus if you knew that the driver is only qualified
>to drive a car? He can obviously drive things with four wheels,
>a steering wheel, a clutch, accelerator, and brake.


Hi Joe,

I think you've put your finger on an important aspect of this
thread.

Parents are (in the main) by necessity acutely aware of their
child's interactions with adults. The man offering candy, the
other daddies in Cub Scouts, the priest at the church etc., all
provide a source of suspicion or at least scrutiny. This makes
parents trained observers of such interactions, I believe.

I saw the scenes you cited exactly as you have described. I saw
how the conversation was subtly steered through expression, and
response. Even with audio alone, it was clear to me that a path
was being laid, and the child dutifully followed. No one is at
fault here, but the conclusions drawn are suspect at best.

I do not believe Budd Hopkins is a fraud, or has any ulterior
motive. Yet I believe that people, especially children, are
supremely susceptible to suggestion, even where there is no
obvious attempt to supply one. And I believe that we all allow
bias to enter into our interactions, even when working our
hardest not to.

This particular event may not be a good example of Mr. Hopkins'
techniques, but it is an example. Editing or no.

Parents are keenly observant of child/adult interactions. These
days, a parent has to be. That we pick up on subtleties is not
amazing...it is simply a response to past and current events.

Your post is refreshingly clear and unambiguous. Bravo!


Best Regards,

Kyle








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             Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 13:06:09 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 13:30:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 15:43:07 -0400
>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:35:59 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

>>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 18:48:14 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

<snip>

>>>But anyway, your suggestion that it was sitting in a box with
>>>papers and much weight on it from the time the hoaxer put it in
>>>the box until Shandara found it doesn't ring true to me. I have
>>>examined the box... and looked at the other file folders (which,
>>>as I recall, had many pink withdrawal sheets... documents never
>>>given to the archives). The documents in folders stand on edge.
>>>The file box holds the documents and folders vertically. There
>>>is no weight or pressure.

>>Dr. Maccabee,

>>I'm surprised at you. Surely you must not believe this.

>>A sheet of paper... creased by prior folding... placed into a
>>hanging file folder

>Nice reasoning but based on the wrong assumption. Was not a
>hanging filefolder. These folders stand on edge in the file box.
>The file box is roughly 4 inches wide by a foot high by 11
>inches from from to back. The bottom of the box is thus about 4
>inches by 11 inches (I never measured a box so the measurements
>I estimated here could be off by a couple of inches). A file
>folder sits on its edge in a box, typically on the fold. The box
>I examined was not tightly packed with file folders. The papers
>inside the file folders were on edge. The CT memo, being between
>folders, was also on edge.

Kyle's reasoning is sound and has nothing to do with the type of
folder it was in or between but with the very fact that the
flimsy onionskin sheet had to be held upright by being
sandwiched between file folders that by definition and
straightforward physics _must_ exert a lateral force on the
sheet, the same force that holds it upright also _flattens_ it
and the creases. A hoaxer would surely have seen that as an aid
to removing the telltale signs of hoaxed insertion (having been
folded up letter-style in a coat or jacket pocket apparently)
after he used a fingernail to flatten it as much as he could.
This is the most reasonable interpretation of the evidence.

>>with other sheets of paper, will be
>>flattened by the pressure exerted on the sides of the folders'
>>contents. Since a file folder is simply a folded sheet of card
>>stock, the bottom is in the form of a valley. Gravity pulls the
>>folder and its contents down, which compresses the lower edges
>>of all the documents in a folder. The downward pressure of
>>gravity also draws the hanging means (hooks) closer together. It
>>is these forces in combination which compress the contents. This
>>is easily confirmed with a small file cabinet or box, a hanging
>>file folder, a stack of paper, and a previously folded sheet of
>>onionskin stationery. Mine didn't have a noticeable crease after
>>3 hours.

I'm sure if Kyle repeated the experiment with non-hanging file
folders he will get the same result. I've done it myself over the
years.

>>If the noted document was the only folded sheet in its vicinity,
>>the pressure of the adjacent documents would be greatest where
>>the creases were the deepest, resulting in even more rapid
>>flattening at those points.

>>Weight from above is not required to un-crease a sheet of
>>onionskin paper. Gravity and a little time are sufficient.

>>Even if the folders were not hanging, but stood on edge in the
>>box, the contents would not stand, but slump to one side or
>>both, again applying pressure to anything not flat already. The
>>creases would be pressed out of the onionskin by adjacent
>>sheets..."peer pressure". :)

>As I mentioned above, the box was not "packed tight" with
>folders. There was no pressure from files or documents that were
>standing on edge beside the document.

Yes there was pressure flattening the onionskin carbon otherwise
as is patently obvious it could not "stand on its edge"! If it
was not packed sufficiently tight in the box it would have
slouched down and curled up at the bottom of a loose file box.
This is an absurd argument Bruce. Papers do not "stand on their
edges" especially the flimsy onionskin carbon sheets!

Also this was supposed to be a carbon copy kept in the files at
the NSC which would never have left the office (until archiving
time years later). It would _not_ have been sent anywhere, such
as folded in an envelope if it had been a genuine Cutler NSC
letter, as it was the _original_ (which we don't have) that went
to Twining. It was a memo addressed to Twining!








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   Oct > Oct 2

                Re: Kidnapped By Aliens? - WSJ Review - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 13:08:55 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 13:33:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Kidnapped By Aliens? - WSJ Review - Boone



>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 15:11:37 +0000
>Subject: Kidnapped By Aliens? - WSJ Review

>Just discovered this little gem in my files: an advance review
>of Kidnapped By Aliens? (NOVA), printed in the Wall Street
>Journal. Feb. 22, 1996. The firmly made-up-mind and reeking
>hostility is obvious. It is fairly long, so I will provide
>excerpts:


>"Nova looks into the fantasies of alleged abductees now finding a
>wide audience for their stories of victimization by rampaging
>aliens [The film begins] with respectfully reported
>introductions to the principals trafficking in these
>hallucinations..."

>"Here, too, is the self-styled therapist Budd Hopkins who has
>made a bundle flogging books of gibberish about alien visitors
>and their victims."

>"We meet, not least, Harvard University psychiatrist John Mack,
>now famous for his efforts to advance the cause of irrationality
>in our times...

>[This film] proceeds to demolish the claims of the various
>hucksters, charlatans, assorted exhibitionists and garden-
>variety nitwits immersed in humbug about alien abductors--and
>does so with quietly killing authority.... Dorothy Rabinowitz."


>I won't bother to comment on the numerous factual errors Ms.
>Rabinowitz perpetrates.


Dick,

Just consider the source. You have no idea how much
devilment brewed up in me to respond to Ms. Rabinowitz's
article, yet respect for my elders overpowered me.

Rabinowitz is a Pulitzer Prize winner and top runner up for the
prize several times over. She's a celebrated personality in the
'bizzness', so she has no hold back on saying whatever she wants
when she wants. ( stay thee behind me Satan, keep that joke back
there! stay back I say! ).

Gadzooks! The temptation rises!

Bottom line is look at 'what' she said and 'how' it was
presented.

Does it say, objective, impartial, well-researched?

That should give you an idea of the mindset of American
Journalism in the mainstream and the influences behind the
throne. (I'm starting to weaken! The temptation to crack a joke
is too much to bear!.

Just listen to the popular talk shows. Lots of ranting and
raving and condescending amoebic responses to the public. There
are no checks and balances on the press so we get all kinds of
nonsense.

I'ld bet if you took a look at Rabinowitz's background you'ld
find more than meets the eye. You either agree with her or you
turn the page.

But there's only one of her and.....


I have got to sign off. The Brooklyn need to crack a joke is so
strong I've got images of Norm Crosby and Rodney Dangerfield
swimming before my eyes


Best,

Greg








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             Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 13:16:17 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 13:35:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 11:16:25 -0500
>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 15:43:07 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

>>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:35:59 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

<snip>

>>As I mentioned above, the box was not "packed tight" with
>>folders. There was no pressure from files or documents that were
>>standing on edge beside the document.

>Hi Dr. Maccabee,

>Thanks for the clarification. I was under the mistaken assumption
>that these boxes were filled one after the other, rather than some
>being left only partially full. Seems an unusual way to archive
>massive amounts of paper, but there's the government for you...
>use the maximum amount of space and the maximum number of boxes
>available, rather than efficiently packing them tight. What was I
>thinking? :)

<snip>

I don't think it makes any difference whether loose in the box
or not, an onionskin sheet has no stiffness to stand on its
edge, so it has to be propped up by pressure from adjacent file
folders as you rightly point out - in the snipped portion I
omitted.

The box was only recently "loose" due to AF declassification
reviewers removing substantial amounts of material. An NSC file
carbon copy had no business being in an AF file in the first
place if it was legitimate, only the original to Gen Twining
should have been in there. That is a tipoff right there that the
hoaxer who planted the memo was with the AF himself (either Doty
or the SAC-DIA AF Colonel or a confederate) and had business or
the excuse to be rummaging around in AF classified files stored
at the Archives.








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                   Re: Lakenheath-Bentwaters 1956 - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 13:22:40 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 13:37:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Lakenheath-Bentwaters 1956 - Sparks


>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 18:01:07 +0100
>Subject: Re: Lakenheath-Bentwaters 1956

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 12:49:58 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Lakenheath-Bentwaters 1956

>>>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:48:41 +0100
>>>Subject: Lakenheath-Bentwaters 1956

>>>The "Lakenheath Collaboration" website was launched quite a while
>>>ago now at:

http://www.parcellular.fsnet.co.uk/Lakenheath.htm
<snip>

>>I have a very simple bottom line and am surprised you
>>do not, unless you are holding it in reserve.

>Is the bottom line so obvious then? I'm not just being coy.

<snip>

>>Your superb
>>analysis and massive data presentation surely has led to some
>>bottom line conclusions on the key elements of the case, the
>>elements that have made it a classic.

<snip>

>So if you want to suggest a definite bottom line then I'm very
>happy to talk about it, but meantime it seems to me that there
>are several figures entered on the balance sheet that can only
>be pencilled in. I'd like to see some debate about these
>subordinate issues as well.

Martin sorry I've run out of time - these damn symbols >>>
have to be put in by hand! I will try to get back to you in a
few days. I have to cut and paste stuff to make this response
intelligible and unassailable. The bottom line is the original
and much vilified classic case has turned out to be absolutely
confirmed.








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   Oct > Oct 2

               Re: Dr. James E. McDonald & The ETH - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 13:08:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 17:39:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Dr. James E. McDonald & The ETH - Lehmberg


>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 15:53:42 +0100
>Subject: Re: Dr. James E. McDonald & The ETH

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 11:32:00 -0500
>>Subject: Dr. James E. McDonald & The ETH

>>Dr. James E. McDonald & The ETH - A Review of Wendy Connors'
>>Sixth Compilation of Ufological Aural History

>>by Alfred Lehmberg
>>www.AlienView.net

><snip>

>Whew! This must be the tirade to end all tirades.

<snip>

"Boo ya! I'm just gettin' warmed up!"

I love it when people cherry-pick my articles. In the future he
can pretend exclamations are a finger in his eye...


alienview.nul -:=A6:-
www.AlienView.net









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   Oct > Oct 2

                          Black Vault Radio Tonight

From: John Greenewald - The Black Vault <bounces.nul>
Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 14:42:10 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 17:59:47 -0400
Subject: Black Vault Radio Tonight



The Black Vault Radio Announcements

Tonight, October 2, 2004: Ruben Uriarte

Ruben Jose Uriarte is a State Director for the Northern
California Mutual UFO Network ( Mufon) and California State
Director for Crop Circle Phenomenon Research International. He
is also the Research Director for Beyond Boundaries, Inc., a
company specializing in leading small groups of people
interested in the UFO Phenomena to areas of the world where UFO
sightings and experiences are frequent. He has been on a number
of television interviews and documentaries and has traveled to
England over the past years and photographed many crop circle
formations. Join Ruben and John LIVE as they discuss Crop
Circles in Northern California, a Chupacabra expedition (Whats
that about?) and so much more!

To listen LIVE, Saturday night 11:00pm - 12:00am Pacific, head
to:

http://www.bvalphaserver.com/article9689.html


DaVinci Code Show Ready for Download!

Last week's episode has received RAVE reviews from those who have
listened in. Actress Patricia Tallman shared her extensive knowledge
and research on the DaVinci Code for The Black Vault Radio Users.

It was such a great topic, that X-Files "Langly" returned to The
Black Vault Radio Studios to join John and Patricia to listen to her
fantastic information -- even he himself holds extensive knowledge on
DaVinci the man. DO NOT MISS THIS ONE!

Head to this URL:

http://www.bvalphaserver.com/article9689.html
{http://www.bvalphaserver.com/article9689.html}

And enter The Black Vault Radio Archives -- there you will find the
show and you can stream it online RIGHT NOW!



--
Powered by PHPlist, www.phplist.com --

The Black Vault Radio Announcements - http://www.bvalphaserver.com/article9689.h
tml

Tonight, October 2, 2004: Ruben Uriarte

Ruben Jose Uriarte is a State Director for the Northern
California Mutual UFO Network ( Mufon) and California State
Director for Crop Circle Phenomenon Research International . He
is also the Research Director for Beyond Boundaries, Inc., a
company specializing in leading small groups of people
interested in the UFO Phenomena to areas of the world where UFO
sightings and experiences are frequent. He has been on a number
of television interviews and documentaries and has traveled to
England over the past years and photographed many crop circle
formations.

Join Ruben and John LIVE as they discuss Crop Circles in
Northern California, a Chupacabra expedition (Whats that about?)
and so much more!

To listen LIVE, Saturday night 11:00pm - 12:00am Pacific, head to:

http://www.bvalphaserver.com/article9689.html


DaVinci Code Show Ready for Download!

Last week's episode has received RAVE reviews from those who
have listened in.  Actress Patricia Tallman shared her extensive
knowledge and research on the DaVinci Code for The Black Vault
Radio Users.

It was such a great topic, that X-Files "Langly" returned to The
Black Vault Radio Studios to join John and Patricia to listen to
her fantastic information -- even he himself holds extensive
knowledge on DaVinci the man.  DO NOT MISS THIS ONE!

Head to this URL:

http://www.bvalphaserver.com/article9689.html

And enter The Black Vault Radio Archives -- there you will find
the show and you can stream it online RIGHT NOW!


List-Subscribe:

http://www.bvalphaserver.com/lists/?p=subscribe








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   Oct > Oct 3

              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: Santiago Yturria <syturria.nul>
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 14:29:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2004 14:21:52 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 20:33:34 -0700
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>From: Santiago Yturria <syturria.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 12:56:53 -0500
>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

><snip>

>>Just as an important information. Last Sunday in Mexico the
>>Cantarel oil flames hoax was exposed on national television
>>during the two-hour live broadcast of the Grandes Misterios TV
>>show presenting the facts and official information that exposed
>>and disqualified the hoaxer once for all.

>Hello dear Santiago, it is Cantarell not Cantarel.

>I am very thankful to Jaime Maussan who dedicated 16 minutes and
>29 seconds of his National TV show trying desperately to
>discredit my work and my investigation results. I never had so
>nice and free opportunity. Thank you all again!

>Maybe you don't have the grit to call out my name, that 'hoax'
>author you are talking about is me. I was delighted seen my work
>and name on national TV and I am still laughing from this frenzy
>and delirium ineffective efforts you are doing trying to shut
>off my mouth and I am sure you and your group of circus makers
>are going to loose this case.


It's now very clear Mr. Franz that your differences with Mr.
Maussan are strictly personal, based on interest conflicts for
reasons I don't know and, in the end, are not  my concern. I'm
aware that these conflicts of yours have been around for years
and have also involved undesirable attacks against some Mexican
airline pilots, colleagues of yours and air traffic control
personal.

Discussions and allegations on the Internet and television have
defined the antagonistic posture you have towards Mr. Maussan,
something that I suspect will continue without any posible
reconciliation. However that's your personal situation and none
of my business.

What I will defend, against all attacks, is the legitimate
status of the Mexican Air Force UFO case and all the elements
involved - a case so important and trascendental that it opened
the doors to direct communication with our military forces to
discuss the intense UFO activity taking place in our country.
Something indisputable and undeniable that you must agree placed
Mexico at the top of Ufology, again.

And the SEDENA case is also a strong political case that changed
our social life and had repercussions in other countries in
terms of social relationships.

The SEDENA case was the perfect experiment that proved without
exception that UFO disclosure by the military works without
causing the feared effects of an angry people demanding it's
military institutions for national security in their aerial
space, or the compromising sovereignity invasion, or the massive
panic confronting an acknowledged presencee in the skies, or the
most feared of all: the supposed risk of undermining the
economy, religion and the political system.

In Mexico all these supposed to take effect fears didn't
happen after the Mexican Air Force released the March 5, 2004
Campeche UFO incident details. In fact the Mexican people
reacted positively as expected, with interest, enthusiasm and
gratitude to the Air Force and the Secretary of Defense for
their honesty and attitude in making public this amazing
incident and giving the case to civilian research. The people
want to learn.

An historic, unprecedented event, that changed history in our
country and surprised the world. That's the real level and size
of the SEDENA case.

I'm definitely convinced of the authenticity of this case based
on my experience and as part of the official authorized research
team. I knew this case since it's birth and I can assure you
that every fact and element of the case was deeply studied and
analyzed not only by the mexican team but also by other
respected collagues and specialsts in other countries invited to
join forces in the investigation as part of our compromise with
the Secretary of Defense.

The SEDENA case was released to the world and facilities given
to access the research data and materials. The response was
inmediate and the reaction as expected. The rest is history.

I'm a devoted supporter of the SEDENA case because I have seen
the evidence and share my belief with many collagues. I don't
belive in your oil flames theory, the same way I didn't belive
the ball-spark lightning, flares, meteorites, space junk and new
invisible stealth secret projet aircraft theories. I have
studied your theory but according to the FLIR readings  -
altitude and locations - and other definitive facts, I concluded
the oil flames proposal don't apply.


Of course you are within your rights to propose your own theory
based on your studies and evaluations of the evidence. But your
posture has gone beyond the mere evaluation of the footage
itself and testimonials of the crew. You've made incriminating
and defaming statements against the C26A crew, the military
personal, their equipment and the Secretary of Defense,
questioning their judgement, training, knowledge and reputation
and forgetting that these meneople risk their lives daily in the
most dangerous anti-drugs war. something that tells us of their
courage and honesty in serving their country.

Then you appear, trying to convince everyone that all these
men, in fact all the armed forces, are not capable of doing their
duty professionally and that their equipment is ineffective and
obsolete implying our national security is in jeopardy?

All because our Secretary of Defense opened the doors and shared
their UFO experience with the people?

I belive you have never been in the Mexican Air Force Mr.
Franz, even though you're a pilot. Neither you have been in the
Army or the Army institutions. I belive you are speaking for
yourself as part of your plan to discredit the case and the
decision made by General Clemente Vega. Therefore our question
as to your motives must be: Why?

I think the root of your complaints against our military have a
name: Jaime Maussan. Tell us honestly, if Mr. Maussan had not
been chosen to handle this case, would your reaction be
the same? Wouldn't you have taken another posture regarding the
C26A crew, the Armed Forces training and equipment and the
Secretary of Defense's decisions? Are you a supporter of a UFO
disclosure in any country? These questions are still floating
around your mysterious personality.

I'm convinced that your motives are strictly personal against
Mr. Maussan and he is the target of your campaign.

That's my belief and correct me if I'm wrong.

We have seen this kind of conflict for decades in the ufological
history, Mr. Franz, that has been the stigma that we have carried
during our ufological crusade. Confrontations and debunking
campaigns among researchers and research groups all over the
world since the 50's have meant the biggest help the goverments
have received supporting the cover-up campaigns.

Sadly, but true, the evolution of global UFO research has slowed
down dramatically because of these mundane interest conflicts
derived in usless confrontation to gain an illusory power over
the control of UFO phenomena. And yet the phenomena still belongs
to everyone.

Based on these reflections and now that history has changed and,
for the first time, the long awaited opening has been given by
our military regarding the UFO phenomena in our country, I will
support with all power this newly established relationship
based on respect and trust.

As I've mentioned, the footage has been the vehicle for this
historic change. The footage will continue to be discussed
forever and most probably we will never get a general agreement.

You have your beliefs and I have mine. But I will not accept,
under any circumstance, our armed force's honor, reputation and
readiness being questioned.

History has been written.


Santiago Yturria










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   Oct > Oct 3

                           Balloon Spy-Sat Or UFO?

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2004 14:35:29 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2004 14:35:29 -0400
Subject: Balloon Spy-Sat Or UFO?




Source: The Hindustan Times - New Delhi

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/5922_1038857,0015002000000000.htm

10-02-04

Balloon Spy-Sat Or UFO?
Dinesh C. Sharma

A space scientist claims to have come across an unidentified
flying object (UFO) during a scientific expedition in Himachal
Pradesh.

Dr Anil V. Kulkarni of ISRO's Space Application Centre saw the
object on the morning of September 27 while leading the
expedition in the Samudra Tapu glacier region near Chandratal,
about 14,000 feet above sea level. Other members of the team
also witnessed the unusual object.

The sighting has been reported to authorities in Kullu-Manali
and New Delhi and the Ahmedabad space centre is analysing the
photographs.

While Kulkarni says it was unlikely that the object was a
weather balloon (though it looked like one), a member of his
team felt the 'UFO' could be an espionage device.

"We saw a bright white object moving towards our camp at about 7
am. It moved down the hilltop, towards the bottom. Eight persons
from our party moved towards it but the object kept moving
towards us. Then some porters made a noise and it started
retreating in the same direction without turning around. After a
while it turned and started to move towards the hilltop," said
Kulkarni on his return from Manali.

He said: "The background was rocky, so we could see the white
object very clearly. It was about 3 to 4 feet tall and balloons
were attached to its head. One was red and the rest were white.
It had what looked like two legs and looked as if it was
floating a few inches above the ground."

Since it was early morning, there was mountain shadow in the
region. "The moment, it came in contact with solar radiation,
its colour changed to black. Then it took off vertically, and
moved along the ridge for about 3-4 minutes in the southern
direction. Soon, after, it its colour changed back to white and
it moved towards our camp. It remained stationary overhead for
3-4 minutes and moved

towards the northerly direction and disappeared," the scientist
said.

Kulkarni rules out the possibility of the object being an
experimental balloon. "The object moved in a slanting direction
without touching the hill. It retreated the same way. It also
changed colour and was moving in a direction different to that
of the prevailing wind. All this suggests that the object could
not have been a weather balloon."








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   Oct > Oct 3

                    Cleveland Area Sighting September 26

From: Kenny Young <ufo.nul>
Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 18:38:48 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2004 14:38:31 -0400
Subject: Cleveland Area Sighting September 26


In addition to the interesting report of a Cleveland-area UFO
sighting on September 26th listed below, also see:

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/3774616/detail.html

for a Detroit UFO sighting on Thursday morning, September 30.
Information about alleged activity in Northern Ohio on September
22 can be seen at:

http://home.fuse.net/ufo/rumors04.html


  - KY

--

UFO seen in Falls remains a mystery
September 30, 2004

Sun Newspapers
Cleveland, Ohio
Joe Nowak, staff writer

Source:

http://www.sunnews.com/news/2004/part2/0930/SUFO.htm

OLMSTED FALLS =97 The opening credits of the science fiction show,
"The X-Files," always ended with the line, "The truth is out
there" =97 designed to open viewers' minds to the possibility that
the fantasy-based story lines could exist.

If the "truth" is out there, did a local resident get a glimpse
of it over the weekend?

According to a police report, a Wainwright Terrace woman
reported Sunday night seeing "something suspicious in the
western sky and it was scaring her." The woman said the object
was white and green in color.

Using binoculars, several officers observed something in the sky
"hovering with a round circle of oscillating red and green
lights," the report said.

Police then spoke to an employee with Cleveland Hopkins Airport
Operations, who said the airport had received several calls
regarding the object, but there was nothing on the flight tower
radar.

About 20 minutes later, the airport worker called police back,
saying he observed the object, as well, and it could be a
satellite. However, the tower was still checking on it and as of
Monday, the object had not been identified.

On Tuesday, Bill Steigerwald, with the Goddard Space Flight
Center in Greenbelt, Md., raised the possibility that the object
might have been a meteor or debris from space. His agency,
though, had not been contacted, so he had not seen the pictures
taken by Falls police.


End of article

--
UFO Research
http://home.fuse.net/ufo
Cincinnati UFO Hotline =3D  (513) 588 - 4548








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   Oct > Oct 3

                Re: Giant Fly Photographed Attacking Mt. St.

From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 10:55:45 +1000
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2004 14:45:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Giant Fly Photographed Attacking Mt. St.


>From: Bob Shell <bob.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 15:17:41 -0400
>Subject: Giant Fly Photographed Attacking Mt. St. Helens

>Now the truth can be told about those "tremors" volcanologists
>have been reporting for the last week.

>Here we have absolute photographic proof that the giant,
>ten-ton flies reported frequently around Mt. St. Helens (and
>which feature prominently in local Native American folklore) are
>in fact real.

>http://www.photodump.com/direct/Fnord/mshvolcanocam.jpg

>Submitted by;

>Bob Shell, Director
>Nearsight Institute

Bob,

This Nearsight Institute. Is that an affiliate of the Blind
Society, or an under development of your over exposure?


Barry Taylor








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              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 12:21:53 +1000
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2004 14:48:18 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos <ballesterolmos.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 16:16:59 +0200 (CEST)
>Subject: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>Please find enclosed some recent news from Dr Claude Poher,
><Claude.Poher.nul>

>To all, hello!

>You may be interested to know that I got photos of the oils
>flames from the gulf of Mexico platforms confirming the
>interpretation of the Flir camera video made from an aicraft of
>the Mexican Air Force on March 5, 2004. For more details, see:

>http://www.universons.com

>in index #6.

>The most interesting picture is included down here with its
>counterpart from the Flir video (see note below).


Hi List,

After having a look at the photos of the oil wells and reading
the explanations on the link above, I am fully convinced that
the FLIR camera *did not* film these oil wells. The study shown
on the site above, would be better used to show why the oil
wells were *not* filmed by the FLIR camera.

A more detailed study can be expanded by using the oil well
images. Just briefly, there are some important points of
interest to consider.

1. The FLIR camera is a Thermal Infrared imaging camera. Thermal
being the operative feature. It registers low temperatures below
body heat, electronically magnifies the readings which are then
displayed on a cathode ray tube and made suitable for recording
on normal video tape. A totally different type of infrared
recording to the 35mm type that requires infrared sensitive film
media and special lens filters.

2. The oil well flames are generally much longer then wide. A
feature not seen to this extent in the Mexican footage.

3. The oil well flames are usually blowing in the wind at an
angle more toward horizontal then vertical upright. This is not
seen in the FLIR footage.

4. There is a large amount of smoke billowing from the stacks.
This smoke would be hot near the flame and cooling progressively
further from the flame. This heat would be shown by the FLIR
camera up to some distance from the flame, but it is not.

5. The reflection of the flame on the water is used to explain
the "Twins". The altitude of the aircraft would not show this
water reflection so bright at this viewing angle.

The lower illumination of the right hand (leading) 'twin' fades
out to almost extinguish near the end of the 'twin' clip. If the
lower illumination were reflection in the water from flame
above, then it would not dim unless the upper 'flame' did. Which
it does not. Enhanced footage of this, shows that heat remains
even though this lower illumination fades out.

6. The photos of the oil well complex shows many lights on the
rigs other then the flames. There is no indication of any of
these lights on the FLIR footage.

More work needs to be done on this case to even get close to the
facts.


Barry Taylor








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   Oct > Oct 3

                     Re: Tribute To Dr John Mack - Burns

From: Chris Burns <Thurstonoreggae.nul>
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 18:43:04 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2004 14:58:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Tribute To Dr John Mack - Burns


>From: Brenda Denzler <denzlerb.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 20:20:25 -0400
>Subject: Re: Tribute To Dr John Mack


>>From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:24:02 +0100
>>Subject: Tribute To Dr John Mack

>>I would like to think John is looking down on us hoping for
>>all of us to keep finding those elusive answers he always
>>sought.

>I'm sure you're right. However, I predict that within six
>months, someone somewhere in UFO-land will stop seeking and
>start "channeling John Mack" and giving us all kinds of "truth"
>about UFOs, alien abductions, crop circles, mutes, the
>government cover-up, and what *really* happened at Roswell.

>Stay tuned.


>Cynically,

>Brenda

Brenda and List,

Sadly you are most likely right. We are already seeing some
possible slight history revisions concerning John Mack from
those claiming to have been an influence on his views,
specifically in regard to the physical reality of the UFO
phenomenon. I'll stick with only his writings for now to form an
idea on what he did and did not believe in regard to UFOs.


Cynically (as well),

Chris Burns









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   Oct > Oct 3

             Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 19:44:01 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2004 15:13:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -


>From: Ryan S. Wood <majesticdocuments.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 08:30:10 -0700
>Subject: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents


>Authenticity Meters Added To www.majesticdocuments.com


Hello all:

Returning to the original intent of this thread, I have to ask:

How does one calibrate "Authenticity Meters" for anything as
controversial as the MJ-12 documents?

Could similar technology be used with unrelated matters like
religious apparitions, chupacabras, the Piltdown Man or
political speeches?


Just curious

- Larry








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   Oct > Oct 3

                       Re: Hopkins' Technique - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul>
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 22:48:28 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2004 15:16:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique - Sandow


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 07:35:00 -0400
>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

>Aren't Budd's 'clients' (I'm not sure that's the correct
>word) usually pre-screened in some way? I know the Fund has
>referred people to Budd on occasion, when the case warrants
>it, but by the time Budd sees the person they already believe
>(or at least have an idea) that they've had an Alien
>Abduction experience.

>Depending on how this is portrayed, it can easily look as if
>Budd is leading his clients under hypnosis, when the subject
>is already one that both parties have agreed is the topic on
>the table.


Steve,

When I watched him work, Budd normally didn't want to see people
who thought they'd been abducted by aliens. He liked people who
showed the symptoms of abduction, but didn't know what had
happened to them. Typically - I saw endless numbers of letters
that said this - they'd say something like, "All my life these
things have happened to me, and you're the first one who's
offered even a vaguely possible explanation." But they weren't
always convinced the abduction explanation was right. It was
something they wanted to look into.

Many of them ended up deciding that the abductions really were
going on, but it didn't always happen as quickly as many people
might think. One woman I got to be friends with called me in a
panic one day. She'd been in Budd's support group for over a
year, and only on the day she called did she really start to
believe that her abductions could be real.

She'd been hypnotized, but didn't believe in the memories that
seemed to surface. She had a transcript of the hypnosis made
(she was fairly well off), and sometimes would read over the
text. The day she called, she'd been reading David Jacobs's
first abduction book. She hadn't read the abduction literature
when she first came to Budd, and in any case was much more
interested in new age books than UFO books. In Dave's book she
found things so amazingly like what she'd said in her hypnosis
session that she was shocked. And frightened! That's why she
called me. She needed to talk to a sympathetic friend who knew
something about the situation.

At that point, I think she started believing in her abductions.
But not before.


Greg Sandow








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             Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 22:48:34 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2004 15:20:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 11:16:25 -0500
>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 15:43:07 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

>>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:35:59 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

<snip>

>>As I mentioned above, the box was not "packed tight" with
>>folders. There was no pressure from files or documents that were
>>standing on edge beside the document.

>Hi Dr. Maccabee,

>Thanks for the clarification. I was under the mistaken assumption
>that these boxes were filled one after the other, rather than some
>being left only partially full. Seems an unusual way to archive
>massive amounts of paper, but there's the government for you...
>use the maximum amount of space and the maximum number of boxes
>available, rather than efficiently packing them tight. What was I
>thinking? :)

>I stand corrected.

>One question remains... if the sheet of paper was standing on
>edge, loose in the folder with no pressure from adjacent
>documents, how was it missed by the examiners tasked with
>numbering and recording the documents?

It is my understanding that the "examiners" did not number and
record the documents. Their job was to deterine what could be
declassified and what has to be withdrawn (there are numerous
pink withdrawal sheets). The numbering and recording had already
been done by the Air Force before the release. (Stan can correct
me on this if I am wrong.) Note that the tabulation of documents
received by the archives listed every document that the AF
released in this particular record group. However, the reference
to any given document was not descriptive: it might say #
1234567 or something like that. Not very helpful. Hence it was
necessary to actually view each document in a 100% search in
order to determine the content of the documents.

>My understanding up to
>now was that it was either stuck to another sheet or between two
>folders.

It was loosely between folders, as I recall, when Shandara found
it. Then, in order to be certain to be able to find it again, (f
I recall correctly over the last 20 some years) he put it into
an adjacent folder. (still no pressure)

>This would at least imply pressure from adjacent items.
>If not, then the examiners were rather sloppy in their work,
>which is not unbelievable but a little too convenient vis a vis
>the subsequent questioned provenance of the document. Almost as
>if it were intentionally left with questionable traits...which
>would be questioned.

>Of course, this is entirely couched in the fact that this
>document wasn't found by accident. Some shadowy figure dropped
>cryptic hints with a person or persons sure to follow up on
>them. One un-numbered creased document found in a box (where it
>does not belong) of numbered documents at the direction of an
>unknown person via a postcard... my 15 year old rolled his eyes
>and said, "There's nothing a little fishy about that?"

>This story has more creases in it than a morning-after prom tux.

>But it could be real. And that is why my hair keeps falling out,
>methinks.

You can get the complete story elsewhere. The "true meaning " of
the cryptic messages on postcards was not realized until after
the document had been found.

The implication is that someone put it there thinking that it
would be found by Shandara/Moore and the fact of the intent to
have it found was "documented" by the postard messages
which, properly interpreted, referred to the number of the box in
which the document was found.

It is _presumed_ that it was one of the document examiners who
placed the document. The archives would not allow us to learn
the names of the document examiners, who were the only people
allowed to bring virtually anything they wanted, including
briefcases, into the "back room" of the archives where they had
complete unmonitored access to the document boxes.









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                       Re: Hopkins' Technique - Chace

From: David Chace <davidwchace.nul>
Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 20:36:40 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2004 21:18:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique - Chace


>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 13:38:28 +0100
>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

<snip>

>1. Hopkins insistance that Ryan construct a story about the
>alien image, in spite of the fact that Ryan clearly did not
>recognise the image. This is an overt example of leading a
>witness, surely?

The child apparently had no conscious recollection of the alien
image, but it is still reasonable for Hopkins to seek further
information about any subconscious memories or associations the
child may have had with the image. As long as Hopkins does not
give clues about what kind of story he is looking for, I do not
think this can be regarded as leading the witness in the sense
of contaminating the child's testimony. The child will come up
with whatever he comes up with. Of course, you then go on to
address this issue with points 2 and 3.

>2. Hopkins' encouragement of Ryan when the story starts to
>follow a line that he wants it to take and Ryan looks to him
>for some kind of cue, eg, the removal of a sleeping person
>from their bedroom and Hopkins' remark "That's a good
>story".

It's possible, of course, that Hopkins always gives positive
feedback of this sort regardless of what the child comes up
with. Maybe that's just his way of relating to children.

>3. Hopkins again overtly encourages a particular story-line
>with his remark "That's right." in direct response to Ryan's
>comment "I bet somebody took me". There is again no signs
>of any editing of this segment.

Again, this may just be Hopkins' way of relating to children,
or, you may very well be right that the narrative was taking the
direction Hopkins had been expecting it would so he offered
encouragement. It is impossible to tell.

As far as NOVA�s editing is concerned, if we had been shown
examples of the child telling stories about the other images,
then we would have a better baseline for understanding how
Hopkins interacts with the child and where he tends to insert
supportive comments. On the other hand, NOVA runs a bit less
than an hour so it is understandable that they would not want to
spend too much time on issues that might not be of interest to
the viewer.

My main complaint, I suppose, is that they spent as much time as
they did on Budd's inconclusive interview with the child and
left out the most compelling parts of the testimony of the
adults, which would have given a very different impression of
the case than the viewer was left with. It is obvious from these
editing choices that NOVA was not trying to make a case for the
reality of UFO abductions, or even for the idea that such events
constitute something truly unexplained. Rather, NOVA's editing
choices indicate that they were attempting to call Hopkins'
techniques into question. If you can't attack the data, attack
the people, as is often said.

Regardless, I still think NOVA is a quality TV series. They just
seem to let their objectivity get usurped anytime they touch on
the subject of UFOs.


David W. Chace








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                      Re: Hopkins' Technique - Freeman

From: Kelly Freeman Khfflsciufo.nul
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 07:30:59 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2004 21:22:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique - Freeman


>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 13:38:28 +0100
>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

<snip>

>Firstly, to those complaining effectively that this has all been
>discussed before, etc., the topic might have been discussed, but
>as far as I can see, the specific examples of his technique that
>I am critical of have not been:

>1.Hopkins insistance that Ryan construct a story about the
>alien image, in spite of the fact that Ryan clearly did not
>recognise the image. This is an overt example of leading a
>witness, surely? Furthermore, it isn't dependent on how the
>producer edited the final programme, no matter how the show was
>cut, Hopkins still did this.

<snip>

>Now I am not a trained Psychologist, and I have never been an
>editor of any Psychological journal, but as a parent I can see
>how suggestive this technique. Does anyone care to defend
>points #1-3 above specifically, or are you satisfied that this
>has all been discussed before and the nasty producer is
>responsible for the above points (not Hopkins himself)?

Joe and List,

First, let me point out that I remember watching that particular
NOVA program, and it was probably one of the most disappointing
"documentaries" I have ever watched on the abduction phenomenon.
NOVA has since been put on my "beware of fraud" list.

As far as point #1 is concerned, Hopkins had every right to
suspect something unusual was happening with the child due to
the testimony of his parents, as outlined in Hopkins' response
to the NOVA program. I would simply view Hopkins' technique as
an attempt to "ferret out" information based upon what the
parents of the child had told him.

Furthermore, are any of us certain that the child didn't
actually recognize the alien image, or was it just a case of the
child not_ wanting_to_ remember the image of the alien? I would
suggest that perhaps the child could have been in a state of
denial not only due to the nature of the experience, but because
of the possibility that his "captors" may have instructed him
not to tell anybody.

I might also add that if the child had "made-up" a story, what
are the chances that it would fit the common scenario of an
actual abduction? If these particular points were made in an
earlier post, or somewhere in the archives regarding this thread,
I must have missed them. If they were, they need to be
emphasised again.

And, as with most everyone else on this List, I was deeply
saddened to hear of the passing of Dr. John Mack, and may his
family please accept my condolescences and prayers. May his soul
rest in peace and truth, and may his pioneering efforts towards
the understanding of the abduction phenomenon be heard
throughout.


Best,

Kelly Freeman









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   Oct > Oct 3

                  Expert Shares Accounts of UFO Encounters

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2004 05:56:38 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2004 21:27:31 -0400
Subject: Expert Shares Accounts of UFO Encounters


Source: The Telegraph - River Bend, Illinois

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=13058432&BRD=1719&PAG=461&dept_id=2527
1&rfi=6

10-13-04


Expert shares accounts of UFO encounters

One of the nation�s leading UFO experts landed in Edwardsville
Saturday to make contact with nearly 100 Midwesterners who prize
unexplained sights in the sky.

UFO devotees from as far as Memphis and Chicago shook hands and
hugged like long-lost friends Saturday as they packed into a
lecture hall at Comfort Inn in Edwardsville. They were excited
to finally meet and hear from Peter Davenport, director of the
National UFO Reporting Center.

Davenport was on hand to share audio and visual accounts of
strange encounters with the mysterious lights in the sky and
true tales of anomalous events. The Mutual UFO Network (MUFON)
of Illinois played host to the informational and social
gathering, which lasted all evening.

"The UFO phenomenon is real," said Davenport, a highly educated
scientist who has been interested in UFOs since boyhood. "This
(event) allows me to give a concise collection of data to an
interested group of people who seek to know more about the
phenomenon."

And that�s what Davenport did.

For nearly two hours, Davenport detailed reported accounts from
across the country of UFO sightings dating back to 1994 when he
became center director. He provided photos, grainy video
footage, drawings, marked maps and audiotapes of reported
sightings -- all pieces of evidence in the unsolved cases of
unidentified flying objects.

Davenport said people should remember that UFO chasers are more
interested in evidence than shaky facts or unconfirmed reports.
He also wants people to know that those who study the strange
phenomena are typically well-respected professionals.

"Without evidence, you have nothing, and that is the only thing
that counts in an investigation," he said. "But we have no
explanation for what some objects are, and we�ll probably never
know. There�s also this mistaken belief that people of stature -
- responsible people -- don�t report UFOs. Ladies and gentlemen,
I�m here to report to you that�s not the case."

Davenport holds degrees in Russian and biology from Stanford
University in California and master�s degrees in finance,
international business and in the genetics and biochemistry of
fish. Originally from St. Louis, he highlighted details of his
life Saturday and multiple UFO sightings in the southwestern
United States and detailed the popular Arizona lights sightings
of 1997.

Davenport gave one account of an elk being lifted off the ground
by a UFO in a forest near Mount St. Helens. He investigated the
incident and believes he found the abducted elk days later.

"It hovered over the elk and lifted that adult elk right off the
ground," he told the crowd, showing slides that simulate the
event. "It was last seen with this elk dangling below as it
streaked to the north."

Audience members asked Davenport questions specific to the
changing faces of UFOs over the years. He also discussed a new
form of radar detection he feels could aid the United States in
identifying mysterious flying objects that are otherwise
undetectable.

Davenport said the purpose of studying UFOs is to answer
numerous questions and to understand how long the phenomenon has
been on this planet.

"It may have been with us for a long, long time -- certainly for
decades, probably for centuries and maybe millenniums," he said.

John Brill of Bethalto was one of many MUFON supporters at the
lecture Saturday. He said the events are interesting and bring
together "eclectic crowds of people -- from housewives to
scientists."

"It�s a very friendly crowd," he said. "We�re people who
appreciate each other and the things we try to get done in this
area. But the subject matter is such that people who are into
this thing get a hard time. But this isn�t just a bunch of
flakes sitting around trying to scare each other."

Brill said he became interested in UFOs in junior high school.

"I liked anything that was mysterious," he said. "I like to have
hobbies that provoke my sense of wonder."

For more information about MUFON, visit www.mufon.com.









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                           The Legacy of John Mack

From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 14:43:32 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2004 21:57:58 -0400
Subject: The Legacy of John Mack


Like everybody on this List, I was shocked and saddened to hear
of the passing of John Mack. I met John on several occasions at
conferences, respected him and liked him.

There have been numerous tributes on this List, all of them
thoughtful and poignant. It's difficult to add anything to this,
but I thought it would be worth saying something about the
effect John had on individual experiencers.

In 2001 I was working with a woman called Brigitte, who had
experienced a wide range of what she believed to be alien
encounters. We gave a presentation about this at Graham
Birdsall's conference in Leeds. Budd Hopkins and John Mack were
also speaking. Brigitte had met and worked with Budd, but had
not previously met John. When she finally got a chance to spend
some time with him, she was struck by his empathetic approach,
positive attitude and humanity. Brigitte subsequently dropped
out of ufology, eschewing the further conference appearances and
media interviews that she might have pursued. She didn't come
away with a definitive explanation for her experiences, but had
apparently reached a state of catharsis. It was clear from what
she told me that John had played a major part in this.

There seemed to be nobody who John met who was not in some way
enriched by the experience, whether intellectually or
spiritually.

I'll give the last word to another person who has experienced
alien encounters. She sent me this brief message a couple of
days ago:

"So sad about John. He was an inspiring man"


Best wishes,

Nick Pope








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              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul>
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 16:34:40 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2004 22:02:26 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: Santiago Yturria <syturria.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 14:29:14 -0500
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 20:33:34 -0700
>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>>From: Santiago Yturria <syturria.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 12:56:53 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>><snip>

>>>Just as an important information. Last Sunday in Mexico the
>>>Cantarel oil flames hoax was exposed on national television
>>>during the two-hour live broadcast of the Grandes Misterios TV
>>>show presenting the facts and official information that exposed
>>>and disqualified the hoaxer once for all.

>>Hello dear Santiago, it is Cantarell not Cantarel.

>>I am very thankful to Jaime Maussan who dedicated 16 minutes and
>>29 seconds of his National TV show trying desperately to
>>discredit my work and my investigation results. I never had so
>>nice and free opportunity. Thank you all again!

>>Maybe you don't have the grit to call out my name, that 'hoax'
>>author you are talking about is me. I was delighted seen my work
>>and name on national TV and I am still laughing from this frenzy
>>and delirium ineffective efforts you are doing trying to shut
>>off my mouth and I am sure you and your group of circus makers
>>are going to loose this case.
>
>
>It's now very clear Mr. Franz that your differences with Mr.
>Maussan are strictly personal, based on interest conflicts for
>reasons I don't know and, in the end, are not  my concern. I'm
>aware that these conflicts of yours have been around for years
>and have also involved undesirable attacks against some Mexican
>airline pilots, colleagues of yours and air traffic control
>personal.

<reluctant snip for brevity>

>I'm convinced that your motives are strictly personal against
>Mr. Maussan and he is the target of your campaign.


>We have seen this kind of conflict for decades in the ufological
>history, Mr. Franz, that has been the stigma that we have carried
>during our ufological crusade. Confrontations and debunking
>campaigns among researchers and research groups all over the
>world since the 50's have meant the biggest help the goverments
>have received supporting the cover-up campaigns.

>Sadly, but true, the evolution of global UFO research has slowed
>down dramatically because of these mundane interest conflicts
>derived in usless confrontation to gain an illusory power over
>the control of UFO phenomena. And yet the phenomena still belongs
>to everyone.

>Based on these reflections and now that history has changed and,
>for the first time, the long awaited opening has been given by
>our military regarding the UFO phenomena in our country, I will
>support with all power this newly established relationship
>based on respect and trust.

>As I've mentioned, the footage has been the vehicle for this
>historic change. The footage will continue to be discussed
>forever and most probably we will never get a general agreement.

>You have your beliefs and I have mine. But I will not accept,
>under any circumstance, our armed force's honor, reputation and
>readiness being questioned.

>History has been written.


Santiago, hola hermano, Hi All,

You are absolutely correct on _all_ counts. Yes, the debunking
campaign against Jaime by Mr. Franz has always been very
personal in nature and clearly there is a 'history' between the
two that goes back a bit in time. As you say, the personal
nature of the animosity Mr. Franz exhibits towards Jaimeis
really none anybody's business other than to acknowledge that it
exists and that it colors his views on anything that originates
with Jaime. With that said...

Bruce Macabee has _repeatedly_ requested that the following two
tests be performed.

1. A careful calibration of the FLIR to determine any error
(slack) in the system. and...

2. Recording the oil well fires with the FLIR.

The tests can be carried out during any futureregular/routine
flight in the area. A special flight is not required and his
request should not pose any insurmountable problems in terms of
compliance with Bruce's request. For some reason Major Soto has
not arranged for the tests to be performed.

The tests will serve two purposes; they will allow Bruce to
determine if the 'objects' that were recorded on the FLIR
equipment were flying _above_ the horizon line (and by how much
altitude) and it will also eliminate once and for all the 'oil
well fire' explanation that has been hanging like a stinking
albatross around the neck of this investigation.

Until the Mexican Air Force complies with Bruce's simple test
requests, the question of the oil well fires will haunt the
investigation. The only proof that will silence noisy debunkers
with a personal axe to grind, like Mr. Franz.

Please, I'm begging you (and Jaime) press Major Soto to push for
these tests to be performed by the Air Force. Without the
results of these tests, (the calibration of the FLIR equipment
and recordings of the oil well fires off the coast,) we're dead
in the water.

Get the tests scheduled! There is no way around this. Despite
remarks on this List that dismiss this case as a 'passe' issue,
it is very much alive and promises to be quite enlightening in
the future. They speak with no knowledge or idea as to what has
been recorded/captured by the Mexican military on that FLIR
document.  ;)

Please be sure to give my best wishes and warmest regards to my
friend, Jaime. I know this hasn't been easy on him on any level.
We all owe him a great debt of gratitude for all he has done and
continues to do. And all of it in the face of extreme pressure
and uncalled-for personal attacks on his character. I know what
that feels like to some degree. I have a lot of respect for how
he has handled it all.

My best to you and all my Mexican compadres,


John Velez








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                       Re: Hopkins' Technique - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul>
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 16:50:24 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2004 22:06:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique - Velez


>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 13:38:28 +0100
>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

>Thanks to those who have responded to my posts. There are a few
>things which I should address.

>Firstly, to those complaining effectively that this has all been
>discussed before, etc., the topic might have been discussed, but
>as far as I can see, the specific examples of his technique that
>I am critical of have not been:

Hi Joe,

Then _obviously_ you have not spent enough time studying the
relevant Posts/material that are located in the UFO UpDates
Archives on the subject.

Sorry, I just don't have the time to do your homework for you,
Joe. You'll just have to plow through all the posts and ferret
out the pertinent portions for yourself. I can promise you that
it is _all_ there as EBK says, 'In glorious black and white' for
all to see/read. ;)

The reason why I became a member of this List back in 96 was
because EBK invited me to participate so that I could address
many questions that people had about the NOVA program and about
Budd. Greg Sandow joined in soon afterwards and made tremendous
contributions of valuable and pertinent information in direct
response to questions such as the ones you have posed. That is
why I bitched about, 'Oh no, this again!'

We've covered all this at least four or five times since the
program first aired in 1996. Please excuse me with being sick
and tired of having to respond to yet another round of the same
questions. As I stated in my previous post on this thread... I
absolutely refuse to do it. It would be a mind-numbing exercise
to repeat it all. Again!

I like and respect you, Joe. Please don't take any of my
comments personally or like I am being dismissive or
disrespectful. It's not that at all. I'm just (honestly) sick
and tired of repeating myself on this subject. Find it in your
heart to excuse me. Get ye to the Archive bro, it's all there.

My best to you,


John Velez,
Abductee
Former Webmaster Budd Hopkins' Intruders Foundation








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              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul>
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 15:55:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2004 22:08:40 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: Santiago Yturria <syturria.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 14:29:14 -0500
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 20:33:34 -0700
>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

<snip>

>It's now very clear Mr. Franz that your differences with Mr.
>Maussan are strictly personal, based on interest conflicts for
>reasons I don't know and, in the end, are not my concern. I'm
>aware that these conflicts of yours have been around for years
>and have also involved undesirable attacks against some Mexican
>airline pilots, colleagues of yours and air traffic control
>personal.

>Discussions and allegations on the Internet and television have
>defined the antagonistic posture you have towards Mr. Maussan,
>something that I suspect will continue without any posible
>reconciliation. However that's your personal situation and none
>of my business.

>What I will defend, against all attacks, is the legitimate
>status of the Mexican Air Force UFO case and all the elements
>involved - a case so important and trascendental that it opened
>the doors to direct communication with our military forces to
>discuss the intense UFO activity taking place in our country.
>Something indisputable and undeniable that you must agree placed
>Mexico at the top of Ufology, again.

<snip>

Dear Santiago:

I neither support nor reject Capt. Franz' oil well theory. I,
like many others, just want to hear what the researchers
involved have to share.

Captain Franz has put his cards (evidence and data) on the table
for everyone to review but you have not provided your evidence
(that I have seen) that refutes his claims other than expressing
your _beliefs_ about the case.

Instead of providing sound data to refute Capt. Franz' claims,
you attempt to attack his character and motives. Instead of
providing us with evidence, you call it all Capt. Franz'
personal vendetta against Jaime Maussan, the crew of the C26A,
the entire Mexican military, their equipment and the Mexican
Secretary of Defense.

Instead of discussing the major points of Capt. Franz' theory,
you give us political speeches.

Please present the evidence/data you have that refutes Captain
Franz' oil well theory - in English please.


A. Hebert








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   Oct > Oct 3

                        Dr. Joyce Brothers "Sightees"

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2004 22:36:45 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2004 22:36:45 -0400
Subject: Dr. Joyce Brothers "Sightees"




Source: The Seattle Post Intelligencer - Seattle, Washington

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/brothers/190592_joyce04.html

10-04-04


Mother should be proud of her generous son

By Dr. Joyce Brothers
Syndicated Columnist

<snip>

Dear Dr. Brothers: A few months ago my son and I were driving
home at night, and we saw a huge, triangular UFO. It was a very
exciting experience, and we both went home and drew a picture of
it to show to my husband and daughter. To our dismay, they just
laughed at us... although I must admit I might have done the
same. Since then I have been trying to find out what that was,
and have come to suspect it's part of a secret "black" project
of our government's. Now I never know whether to mention the
sighting to people I meet, as it tends to make others think you
are some "abducted by aliens" type nut. -- N.K.

Dear N.K.: This is so unfair; you are not that kind of nut at
all - you never even mentioned aliens! I am making light of
this because I, like everyone else, don't want to seem too
gullible or easily taken in by a possibly fraudulent claim.
Outside of those whose avocation is UFO-hunting, I think you are
right that many people will look askance at your story and
wonder about you. Others might agree that we might not be alone
or that the government does secretly test new technology, but
those aren't the people you are worrying about -- although in
some cases perhaps you should, since there are plenty of
hucksters and frauds out there.

Perhaps if you can approach the subject with humor and a smile
when people start talking about little green men, they will see
that you are not a fanatic. Then save your passionate
explorations of the subject for people who share your concerns,
or an Internet chat group of similar "sightees" who are in the
same position you are. They are a great peer group for you on
this mysterious subject.

Write to Dr. Joyce Brothers via King Features, 888 Seventh Ave.,
New York, NY 10019








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             Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 20:17:53 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2004 22:38:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 22:48:34 -0400
>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

<snip>

>It is my understanding that the "examiners" did not number and
>record the documents. Their job was to deterine what could be
>declassified and what has to be withdrawn (there are numerous
>pink withdrawal sheets). The numbering and recording had already
>been done by the Air Force before the release. (Stan can correct
>me on this if I am wrong.) Note that the tabulation of documents
>received by the archives listed every document that the AF
>released in this particular record group. However, the reference
>to any given document was not descriptive: it might say #
>1234567 or something like that. Not very helpful. Hence it was
>necessary to actually view each document in a 100% search in
>order to determine the content of the documents.

<snip>

>It was loosely between folders, as I recall, when Shandara found
>it. Then, in order to be certain to be able to find it again, (f
>I recall correctly over the last 20 some years) he put it into
>an adjacent folder. (still no pressure)

<snip>

>You can get the complete story elsewhere. The "true meaning " of
>the cryptic messages on postcards was not realized until after
>the document had been found.

>The implication is that someone put it there thinking that it
>would be found by Shandara/Moore and the fact of the intent to
>have it found was "documented" by the postard messages
>which, properly interpreted, referred to the number of the box in
>which the document was found.

>It is _presumed_ that it was one of the document examiners who
>placed the document. The archives would not allow us to learn
>the names of the document examiners, who were the only people
>allowed to bring virtually anything they wanted, including
>briefcases, into the "back room" of the archives where they had
>complete unmonitored access to the document boxes.

Hi Dr. Maccabee,

The semantics of what is an examiner is irrelevant to the point.
Someone was tasked with numbering the documents in order for
them to be archived. In that process, this document was missed,
or it was placed into the box later, after the numbering.

This argument has gone completely beyond the pale if you are
actually attempting to convince this List that a sheet of paper
stood on its edge between two file folders in a file box, with
no pressure exerted on it, and was then moved from its rightful
location by Shandera into a folder 'in order to be certain to be
able to find it again' and left there, with no pressure exerted
on it. If it were standing on edge with no external pressure,
why would he have needed to move it into a folder to find it
again. Surely such a sheet of paper would be easily found in it
original location. How could one miss it... standing alone with
nothing on either side to exert pressure to hold it upright?
Why, it should be the most easily noticed sheet of paper in the
box.

There is no point in arguing this increasingly ridiculous thread
any longer. It is obvious that an agenda is at work here that
precludes any logical argument against it. How this magical
sheet of paper avoided previous detection is beyond my
comprehension.

In that light, I fully concede the point... paper, like lens flare,
behaves differently in your world than in mine.


Regards,

Kyle







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                  Re: Dr. Joyce Brothers "Sightees" - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 23:44:26 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2004 05:57:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Dr. Joyce Brothers "Sightees" - Boone



>Source: The Seattle Post Intelligencer - Seattle, Washington

>http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/brothers/190592_joyce04.html

>10-04-04


>Mother should be proud of her generous son

>By Dr. Joyce Brothers
>Syndicated Columnist

><snip>

>Dear Dr. Brothers: A few months ago my son and I were driving
>home at night, and we saw a huge, triangular UFO. It was a very
>exciting experience, and we both went home and drew a picture of
>it to show to my husband and daughter. To our dismay, they just
>laughed at us...

<snip>

>Dear N.K.: This is so unfair; you are not that kind of nut at
>all - you never even mentioned aliens! I am making light of
>this because I, like everyone else, don't want to seem too
>gullible or easily taken in by a possibly fraudulent claim.

Okay I'm on the floor laughing with that 'Twilight Zone' theme
music running through my head.

Dr. Joyce Brothers responded with eloquence and honor to her
reader's post. Well balanced and coming from someone in her
profession it's a breath of fresh air.

What's making me laugh so hard is that years ago Dr. Brothers
moved into my area of the Hudson Valley just when the UFO
problem up there got hot. I'm sure if she's rubbed elbows with
the local folks she's read of or heard a tale or two because
just about everyone there has seen the big triangle/boomerang
aircraft. One day when someone called in to us at the city desk
of our newspaper to report a flying boomerang the wire editor
whirled around in his chair and said, "Maybe they should ask Dr.
Joyce Brothers?".

Maybe if we egged her on she'd let us know more.


Best,

Greg








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   Oct > Oct 4

              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: Santiago Yturria <syturria.nul>
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 23:10:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2004 06:03:21 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 15:55:30 -0500
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>From: Santiago Yturria <syturria.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 14:29:14 -0500
>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 20:33:34 -0700
>>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

><snip>

>>It's now very clear Mr. Franz that your differences with Mr.
>>Maussan are strictly personal, based on interest conflicts for
>>reasons I don't know and, in the end, are not my concern. I'm
>>aware that these conflicts of yours have been around for years
>>and have also involved undesirable attacks against some Mexican
>>airline pilots, colleagues of yours and air traffic control
>>personal.

>>Discussions and allegations on the Internet and television have
>>defined the antagonistic posture you have towards Mr. Maussan,
>>something that I suspect will continue without any posible
>>reconciliation. However that's your personal situation and none
>>of my business.

>>What I will defend, against all attacks, is the legitimate
>>status of the Mexican Air Force UFO case and all the elements
>>involved - a case so important and trascendental that it opened
>>the doors to direct communication with our military forces to
>>discuss the intense UFO activity taking place in our country.
>>Something indisputable and undeniable that you must agree placed
>>Mexico at the top of Ufology, again.

><snip>

>I neither support nor reject Capt. Franz' oil well theory. I,
>like many others, just want to hear what the researchers
>involved have to share.

>Instead of discussing the major points of Capt. Franz' theory,
>you give us political speeches.


With due all respect I didn't give you anything here Ms Hebert.
My response to Mr. Franz is directed to him in reference, not to
the footage itself, but, to the issues mentioned in my post that
I consider unfair and irrelevant.

For your information, the SEDENA case reports has been around
the Internet since May 2004. I suggest you take some time and
read the reports, information and evidences regarding this case.


You're welcome to draw your own conclusions,

Santiago Yturria








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             Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul>
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 02:59:11 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2004 06:16:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 20:17:53 -0500
>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 22:48:34 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

><snip>

>>It is my understanding that the "examiners" did not number and
>>record the documents. Their job was to deterine what could be
>>declassified and what has to be withdrawn (there are numerous
>>pink withdrawal sheets). The numbering and recording had already
>>been done by the Air Force before the release. (Stan can correct
>>me on this if I am wrong.) Note that the tabulation of documents
>>received by the archives listed every document that the AF
>>released in this particular record group. However, the reference
>>to any given document was not descriptive: it might say #
>>1234567 or something like that. Not very helpful. Hence it was
>>necessary to actually view each document in a 100% search in
>>order to determine the content of the documents.

><snip>

>>It was loosely between folders, as I recall, when Shandara found
>>it. Then, in order to be certain to be able to find it again, (f
>>I recall correctly over the last 20 some years) he put it into
>>an adjacent folder. (still no pressure)

><snip>

>>You can get the complete story elsewhere. The "true meaning " of
>>the cryptic messages on postcards was not realized until after
>>the document had been found.

>>The implication is that someone put it there thinking that it
>>would be found by Shandara/Moore and the fact of the intent to
>>have it found was "documented" by the postard messages
>>which, properly interpreted, referred to the number of the box in
>>which the document was found.

>>It is _presumed_ that it was one of the document examiners who
>>placed the document. The archives would not allow us to learn
>>the names of the document examiners, who were the only people
>>allowed to bring virtually anything they wanted, including
>>briefcases, into the "back room" of the archives where they had
>>complete unmonitored access to the document boxes.

>Hi Dr. Maccabee,

>The semantics of what is an examiner is irrelevant to the point.
>Someone was tasked with numbering the documents in order for
>them to be archived. In that process, this document was missed,
>or it was placed into the box later, after the numbering.

Kyle, Listers,

Having been to the archives myself, I would make the observation
that not always are documents numbered or indexed. I have seen
many file boxes with a number of files with only withdrawal
sheets in them, meaning you could compress all the file folders
to half or more the size of the box... meaning very loose
filing. I have seen others that were packed to the gills and
were almost difficult to remove folders.

Years ago I actually got to look at a record group accession
number list. You would have something vague like 12345 XYZ
command 1950-1960 Cables and letters 10 boxes or something like
that. As I recall their was no "detailed" specific breakdown of
each document that was accessioned from the various branchs of
service. At that point I was looking for some specific things,
but discovered real fast that unless you had a current security
clearence and some pressing need to access the files, you
weren't going to get near them, and literally going through by
hand was the only way you were going to find what you were
looking for. So then the option is to request a declassification
review, but you have to ask for a specific document in a
specific area and if you are not exact, the request will get
terminated fast. If_ they happen to find said document, then you
will wait anywhere from 2-6 years for the review to be finished.

Early on I was under the assumption that the various government
agencies faithfully deposited documents to the archive and found
out that not to be exactly true, and or that Service X or Agency
Y had in fact given the archives accession lists, BUT had not
actually done the transfer and the documents are still under
control of that service or agency. It was around that time the
archivist told me a story about there being other classified
archives that were not part of the NARA system - Presidential
librarys and various regional archives - where records are kept
as well. They are supposedly very, very limited access
archives. Apparently when you file a FOIA request they have
specific areas where they look for records and thsse classified
archives are not on the search list, hence they don't get
searched. Kind of like the AF public affairs office denying for
years that Stealth existed, until it was declassified and the
people in the public affairs office were cleared for the
information then they could say it did exist.. but up to that
point they weren't cleared for it, and they had no knowledge so
the party line was non-existance.

I have seen documents that were classified Top Secret but did
not have any kind of so called "control number" on them, yet now
everybody just has kittens because each and every document 'should
have a control number' so the absence of a control number means
they are fake. Not! I have seen documents from the Executive
branch of government that did not follow the rules of creation
for classified documents, yet, they were formerly highly
classified documents all the same, and considered such by
officials over the years.

>This argument has gone completely beyond the pale if you are
>actually attempting to convince this List that a sheet of paper
>stood on its edge between two file folders in a file box, with
>no pressure exerted on it, and was then moved from its rightful
>location by Shandera into a folder 'in order to be certain to be
>able to find it again' and left there, with no pressure exerted
>on it. If it were standing on edge with no external pressure,

Depends on if the box of files was full of withdrawl slips, or
was chock-full of documents. I have seen it both ways.

>why would he have needed to move it into a folder to find it
>again. Surely such a sheet of paper would be easily found in it
>original location. How could one miss it... standing alone with
>nothing on either side to exert pressure to hold it upright?
>Why, it should be the most easily noticed sheet of paper in the
>box.

Having seen archive boxes I could see how it could get missed.
As to the authenticity of said document I think Stan has
provided clear evidence that it appears to be real. Was it
planted? Did somebody in the AF crew deposit it there? We will
never really know, no matter how much debate happens on this
subject.


Cheers,

Robert








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   Oct > Oct 4

              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 03:06:33 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2004 06:22:54 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 16:34:40 -0400
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

<snip>

>Please, I'm begging you (and Jaime) press Major Soto to push for
>these tests to be performed by the Air Force. Without the
>results of these tests, (the calibration of the FLIR equipment
>and recordings of the oil well fires off the coast,) we're dead
>in the water.

Hey John, I'm not too up on Mexican law but, they may have to do
the tests because if I were a defense attorney and got wind of a
possible malfunction in equipment used to gather evidence I'd
use that to the hilt to get my clients off the hook.

If there's enough reasonable doubt that let's say the FLIR was
used to nail a guy in a boat full of dope and then during the
trial I say, " Your Honor, word is that there may be a problem
with the technologies used that pointed to my client's arrest!"

But then again, it's Mexico. Who knows.


Best,

Greg








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   Oct > Oct 4

                             UFO Review Issue 5

From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 12:47:27 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2004 08:22:14 -0400
Subject: UFO Review Issue 5


Issue 5 (October 2004) of UFO Review is now available at:

http://www.uforeview.net

Upper left hand button on web site marked "Current issue".

DSL/Broadband connection - about a one minute download.

Dial ups maybe about 10 minutes.

It's a PDF so you will need Acrobat.


In this issue;

Professor Chris Partridge, author of "UFO Religions" talks us
through the psychology of why people join, why people initate
cults and so on. Also, how to start your own religion in three
easy steps.

Kithra takes us through Cornish Cryptids  - some of the strange
beasts and legends of Cornwall in south west England. Some
interesting photos.

Don Ledger has kindly provided us with the transcript of his
Ozark presentation on the Shag Harbour incident - the case that
just won't go away and gets stranger by the month.

Fortean Corner - the weird case of The Wild Man of Biggleswade.

Sir Ian Rankin, author of "Doomsday Just Ahead" talks to us
about his unusual theories including the fact that the Earth's
magnetic field is not going to flip as many have predicted.
Instead, the Earth itself is going to spin round possibly by as
much as 180 degrees. Something to look forward to.

Regular contributor Sheryl Gottschall follows up her excellent
article "Challenges For The Volunteer Ufologist" with "More
Challenges For The Volunteer Ufologist"!

Silver In Those circles - The Southampton UFO group's visit to
Avebury

Plus, the usual irreverant send ups, cartoons, and generally
disrespectful tone.


Stuart Miller








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   Oct > Oct 4

                     Re: Tribute To Dr John Mack - Chace

From: David Chace <davidwchace.nul>
Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2004 06:09:55 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2004 20:02:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Tribute To Dr John Mack - Chace


>From: Chris Burns <Thurstonoreggae.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 18:43:04 EDT
>Subject: Re: Tribute To Dr John Mack

>>From: Brenda Denzler <denzlerb.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 20:20:25 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Tribute To Dr John Mack

>>=85However, I predict that within six months, someone
>>somewhere in UFO-land will stop seeking and start
>>"channeling John Mack" and giving us all kinds of "truth"
>>about UFOs, alien abductions, crop circles, mutes, the
>>government cover-up, and what *really* happened at
>>Roswell.

This seems almost inevitable, given the way these things tend
to go.  I'm used to it by now.

>Brenda and List,

>Sadly you are most likely right. We are already seeing some
>possible slight history revisions concerning John Mack from
>those claiming to have been an influence on his views,
>specifically in regard to the physical reality of the UFO
>phenomenon. I'll stick with only his writings for now to form

>an idea on what he did and did not believe in regard to UFOs.

In addition to his writings, we also have Dr. Mack's television
appearances, radio interviews, conference presentations and
things he may have said in private conversation, though
obviously the latter are hard to verify.  I believe I met him in
person at three events, as best I recall.  First at the 1993 Triad
UFO Research Conference in Bellevue, WA, then at the
CSICOP Conference on "Psychology of Belief" held in
Tukwila, WA in 1994 and also I was in the studio audience and
I think I spoke to him briefly after the show when he was on
KOMO TV 4's "Town Meeting" in Seattle hosted by Ken
Schram in 1994.  (You may notice that I didn't have to travel
very far for any of these appearances.)

When I first met Dr. Mack I was especially interested in what
he could tell me about the physical appearance of reptilians.
His comment was that in at least one case they seemed
"mechanical," "robot-like" and unemotional.  I asked him if
they were described as being more muscular than the Grays.
=46rom my own conversations with experiencers I was only
familiar with one or two instances of reptilians at this time, and
in one of those cases it was mentioned that they had the bodies
of professional body-builders, but of course with scaly skin.
Dr. Mack only said that the reptilians "may be" more muscular
than the Grays, but I don't think he had actually been told this
by any of the witnesses in the handful cases that he had come
across at that point.

Somewhere I have the notes I took during Mack's 1993
presentation at Triad.  I recall that he discussed what he
regarded as the implications of the UFO abduction
phenomenon, and broke down its impact on different areas of
knowledge.  He talked about what it meant for human identity,
spirituality and the human future.  He also was very clear in
mentioning that there was a physical, evidential component of
this phenomenon that would be good for "science buffs" to
study.  When he spoke on "Town Meeting" in 1994 I know he
referred specifically to "burned earth" and I think he also cited
this evidence at Triad.

I don't know if his position regarding the physical component
of the phenomenon changed significantly over the years.  He
talked about the subtle and elusive quality of the physical
evidence when confronted by skeptics on this point, and I think
that may have annoyed some of his "nuts and bolts"
colleagues.

Chris, I am sorry if I seem overly sensitive on this issue, but I
am not sure whom you were referring to when you mentioned
"possible slight history revisions" regarding Mack's take on the
physical evidence issue.

When I met Dr. Mack in person he seemed like a wise and
gentle teacher (polite even to his critics).  I am just a pup, by
comparison, and I don't have any illusions that I influenced his
position on UFOs, except maybe by being one of the people
who showed him that there was interest in the reptilians, and in
what the different alien types or species physically looked like.
I wish he had included more illustrations to go along with the
verbal descriptions of aliens in his books, as is my general
criticism of most of the UFO abduction literature.

David W. Chace








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             Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 08:17:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2004 20:04:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -


>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 02:59:11 EDT
>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

<snip>

>Having seen archive boxes I could see how it could get missed.
>As to the authenticity of said document I think Stan has
>provided clear evidence that it appears to be real. Was it
>planted? Did somebody in the AF crew deposit it there? We will
>never really know, no matter how much debate happens on this
>subject.


Hi Robert,

This last paragraph restates my point quite eloquently. Like a
genuine document... or a good forgery... the C-T memo 'appears
to be real, but 'we'll never really know'. Indeed.

This says to me... move on. This debate is one of semantics at
this point.

Thank you too for painting a word picture of the manner in which
the documents are archived. That helped cement my thoughts.

Best Regards,

Kyle









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             Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 10:57:49 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2004 20:07:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -


>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 02:59:11 EDT
>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

<snip>

>Having been to the archives myself, I would make the observation
>that not always are documents numbered or indexed. I have seen
>many file boxes with a number of files with only withdrawal
>sheets in them, meaning you could compress all the file folders
>to half or more the size of the box... meaning very loose
>filing. I have seen others that were packed to the gills and
>were almost difficult to remove folders.

<snip>

>Having seen archive boxes I could see how it could get missed.
>As to the authenticity of said document I think Stan has
>provided clear evidence that it appears to be real. Was it
>planted? Did somebody in the AF crew deposit it there? We will
>never really know, no matter how much debate happens on this
>subject.


Thanks for your comments. Based on what you have written I can
see that you have "been there, done that!"

The document itself is still there... I presume... and well
beyond ripe for testing. 16 or so years ago the going rate was
$3000 (if I recall correctly; a quote to the Fund for UFO
Research by an experienced examiner). Problem was, had to get
the document out of the archives. Perhaps now there are devices
that could be taken into the archives to test the document for
age (infrared scanning, whatever).








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              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: Santiago Yturria <syturria.nul>
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 10:10:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2004 20:13:32 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 03:06:33 EDT
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 16:34:40 -0400
>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

><snip>

>>Please, I'm begging you (and Jaime) press Major Soto to push for
>>these tests to be performed by the Air Force. Without the
>>results of these tests, (the calibration of the FLIR equipment
>>and recordings of the oil well fires off the coast,) we're dead
>>in the water.

>Hey John, I'm not too up on Mexican law but, they may have to do
>the tests because if I were a defense attorney and got wind of a
>possible malfunction in equipment used to gather evidence I'd
>use that to the hilt to get my clients off the hook.

>If there's enough reasonable doubt that let's say the FLIR was
>used to nail a guy in a boat full of dope and then during the
>trial I say, " Your Honor, word is that there may be a problem
>with the technologies used that pointed to my client's arrest!"

>But then again, it's Mexico. Who knows.


I would like to make a comment if I may. The alleged Merlin C26A
FLIR malfunctioning, bad readings due to a misadjustment or bad
calibration failures are just part of the debunking campaign on
the Mexican Air Force case. These allegations were invented
without asolid basis and there is no a hard evidence to sustain
these allegations.

Anyone that makes these allegations must prove first to have
been aboard the actual Merlin C26A and made a technical check of
both the FLIR and the Radar, with the appropiate equipment and
qualified technicians experts on both systems.

The authorized research team was the only one granted access to
the actual Merlin C26A and it's equipment for the evaluation
purposes of the investigation and it's results. These results
are contained in the report and the images included in the
official research video. Those who claim the alleged misaligment
of the C26A FLIR and RADAR without being aboard the airpline are
just making speculations that would have been inmediatelly
disqualified in any court of law as irrelevant and inmaterial
evidence.

So many false facts were invented as part of the debunking
campaign and each one of those inventions were already exposed.

There's an old saying well known in Ufology referenced to a top
goverment official during the early stages of the UFO cover-up
campaign that says: "Repeat a lie many times and the people will
finally belive it "


Santiago Yturria








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              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul>
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 13:54:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2004 20:18:28 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 20:33:34 -0700
>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

<snip>

>>Why Dr. Bruce Maccabee name was called last sunday as to be a
>'>hoaxer promoter'? See:
>>http://www.alcione.org/FRAUDES/FAM/CAMPECHE/Maussan092604.wmv

>Regarding this Mexico video case I have stated no conclusion
>publicly other than that the radar target seems to be
>unusual/unidentified. I have cautioned that it is premature to
>arrive at a conclusion regarding the video because the data
>which would confirm any hypothesis are not yet available. We are
>still waiting for an experiment I proposed months ago during a
>time of comparable weather (including wind direction, ground and
>upper altitude).

Hi, Bruce:

You are so right, this is an important and necessary experiment
to perform. We rarely get the opportunity to test hypotheses in
UFO cases but someday, someone is bound to get up there during
'comparable weather' and similar conditions to film those oil
well fires with a FLIR camera.

If the Mexican Air Force conducts this experiment and discovers
the objects they allowed Mr. Maussan to promote as UFO's to the
entire world were really misidentified oil well fires, do you
think they will ever share this information with the public? If
they had to admit they made a mistake, do you think the Mexican
Air Force (or any national military force, for that matter)
would be willing to come forth and set the record straight?

I seriously doubt they would release the results to you or
anyone if it supported Capt. Franz' oil well theory. Hopefully,
someone, someday will provide you will the footage you need to
complete and release your final analysis.


A. Hebert








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              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 12:02:23 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2004 20:20:45 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 16:34:40 -0400
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>The tests will serve two purposes; they will allow Bruce to
>determine if the 'objects' that were recorded on the FLIR
>equipment were flying _above_ the horizon line (and by how much
>altitude) and it will also eliminate once and for all the 'oil
>well fire' explanation that has been hanging like a stinking
>albatross around the neck of this investigation.

Do not prejudge the outcome. One possibility is as you state,
but you must be willing to accept the other possiblity that it
"proves" the "oil well fire" explanation. A serious investigator
would not bemoan an explanation as a "stinking albatross". It
currently has alot of data to support it which the tests would
help confirm or deny.

>Until the Mexican Air Force complies with Bruce's simple test
>requests, the question of the oil well fires will haunt the
>investigation.

Haunt? If an explanation makes sense and mostly covers the facts
to a high degree, its not haunting. Answers do not haunt!

>The only proof that will silence noisy debunkers
>with a personal axe to grind, like Mr. Franz.

I have observed enough close-mindedness on both sides of the UFO
issue to know that regardless of "proof", people will keep their
own ideas/opinions. How different this is from real science!

>Please, I'm begging you (and Jaime) press Major Soto to push for
>these tests to be performed by the Air Force. Without the
>results of these tests, (the calibration of the FLIR equipment
>and recordings of the oil well fires off the coast,) we're dead
>in the water.

What's Soto's email/snail mail address? I forwarded my request
as Dr. Maccabee asked through Maussan (with no feedback).

>Despite remarks on this List that dismiss this case as a 'passe'
>issue, it is very much alive and promises to be quite enlightening
>in the future.

I doubt it. Why the groundless enthusiasm? The only good thing
about this case was the willingness of the military to share
this data. However, I think they have learned their lesson. What
they should have done was intensively investigate it internally
prior to a public release. Only then could they hope to prevent
egg on their faces. What was their motivation in a public
release? Were they afraid and hoped to warn the public? Maybe
Franz is right in his assertions of Mexican military
incompetence. I have not wanted to consider this, because I
support the U.S. military. But I have been reading about the
Mexican government recently and it does seem very corrupt, maybe
that is somehow affecting their military.

>They speak with no knowledge or idea as to what
>has been recorded by the Mexican military on that FLIR document.

Why do you insult us? We can form theories and accumulate data
as to what was on this and any other UFO film, video,etc. Much
such data seems unexplainable either due to lack of time to
investigate or lack of interest or not enough data or maybe its
just not explainable. The oil well flare theory seems to be
pretty good so far for the Campeche case.








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              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 12:28:13 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2004 20:22:36 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 12:21:53 +1000
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>The study shown on the site above, would be better used to
>show why the oil wells were *not* filmed by the FLIR camera.

I looked at the site and found the images very informative, at
least from the perspective of obtaining more data on the size of
the oil platforms and the relative location of the flares.


>1. The FLIR camera is a Thermal Infrared imaging camera. Thermal
>being the operative feature. It registers low temperatures below
>body heat, electronically magnifies the readings which are then
>displayed on a cathode ray tube and made suitable for recording
>on normal video tape. A totally different type of infrared
>recording to the 35mm type that requires infrared sensitive film
>media and special lens filters.

Wrong. Although it detects a wide range of temperatures, with
high temperatures predominating, FLIR certainly doesn't just
register low temps below body heat!!! Simply put, its looking
for aircraft engines so why would it just be able to look at
body heat temps?

>2. The oil well flames are generally much longer then wide. A
>feature not seen to this extent in the Mexican footage.

>3. The oil well flames are usually blowing in the wind at an
>angle more toward horizontal then vertical upright. This is not
>seen in the FLIR footage.

Depends on the wind direction, speed and the direction the camera is
filming from, right?


>4. There is a large amount of smoke billowing from the stacks.
>This smoke would be hot near the flame and cooling progressively
>further from the flame. This heat would be shown by the FLIR
>camera up to some distance from the flame, but it is not.

Have you done an analysis of smoke temperature and cooling
rates? Get back when you have run your model. Also, note that
any smoke heat from smoke blown away from the camera would
probably add to the size of the flare image in a circular
manner. Conversely, smoke blown in the direction of the aircraft
would likely obliterate the flares although I cannot
conclusively say this because I do not have enough data on smoke
properties. I have viewed many Landsat images of the smoke
trails. Unsurprisingly, most trails are away from the coastline
(and aircraft path).


>5. The reflection of the flame on the water is used to explain
>the "Twins". The altitude of the aircraft would not show this
>water reflection so bright at this viewing angle.

I have had trouble with the reflection idea too. But considering the
magnification of the FLIR, it still may be possible to see it. I
was annoyed that the image site does not list the oil platforms
by name or location so I can't build a better geometry model of
the platforms.

>The lower illumination of the right hand (leading) 'twin' fades
>out to almost extinguish near the end of the 'twin' clip. If the
>lower illumination were reflection in the water from flame
>above, then it would not dim unless the upper 'flame' did. Which
>it does not. Enhanced footage of this, shows that heat remains
>even though this lower illumination fades out.

I need to look at this one. I did not pay attention to this part
of the FLIR video.

>6. The photos of the oil well complex shows many lights on the
>rigs other then the flames. There is no indication of any of
>these lights on the FLIR footage.

Tiny lights in the infrared spectrum (even in the visible one
too) compared to huge spheres of heat from large flow gas
burnoff. Even on FLIR extreme magnification, the pixel size is
not going to be enough to see such little light bulb
illumination.

>More work needs to be done on this case to even get close to the
>facts.

I think the oil well flare theory is doing a good job of
providing facts to explain this case.








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   Oct > Oct 4

                   Re: Lakenheath-Bentwaters 1956 - Shough

From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul>
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 20:38:11 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2004 20:26:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Lakenheath-Bentwaters 1956 - Shough


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 13:22:40 EDT
>Subject: Re: Lakenheath-Bentwaters 1956

>>>>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:48:41 +0100
>>>>Subject: Lakenheath-Bentwaters 1956

>>>>The "Lakenheath Collaboration" website was launched quite a while
>>>>ago now at:

>http://www.parcellular.fsnet.co.uk/Lakenheath.htm

><snip>

>>>I have a very simple bottom line and am surprised you
>>>do not, unless you are holding it in reserve.

>>Is the bottom line so obvious then? I'm not just being coy.

>The bottom line is the original and much vilified classic
>case has turned out to be absolutely confirmed.

Brad

Really? Well this is fascinating. Nobody else - of any
complexion - seems to think that anything of any note whatsoever
has occurred! I'd like to think that the sceptics and the
nonsceptics alike all find this bottom line too obvious to
bother mentioning, but somehow I just can't see it. I'm frankly
mystified. But then I guess I'm used to that state of mind, so
hey ho! ;-)


Best wishes

Martin








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   Oct > Oct 5

             Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -

From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 21:02:55 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 08:29:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 20:17:53 -0500
>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

<snip>

>There is no point in arguing this increasingly ridiculous thread
>any longer. It is obvious that an agenda is at work here that
>precludes any logical argument against it. How this magical
>sheet of paper avoided previous detection is beyond my
>comprehension.

Yes, the agenda is that some UFOs are real, i.e. "True UFOs", so
it is desirable to assert that at least some of the documents
which support this idea are genuine. This is known as "Saucer
Logic", the basic idea of which seems to be that you start with
what you want to believe then work backwards, rather than
starting with the evidence and working towards a rational and
coherent explanation. For another example of "Saucer Logic"
concerning the MJ-12 papers, see the item, "More on the new MJ-
12 documents" at:

http://www.martiansgohome.com/smear/v46/ss991010.htm

And for a real feast of "Saucer Logic" absurdity see

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/apr/m08-015.shtml


John Harney









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             Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 18:08:37 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 08:33:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -


>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 02:59:11 EDT
>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 20:17:53 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

>>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 22:48:34 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

>><snip>

>>>It is my understanding that the "examiners" did not number and
>>>record the documents. Their job was to deterine what could be
>>>declassified and what has to be withdrawn (there are numerous
>>>pink withdrawal sheets). The numbering and recording had already
>>>been done by the Air Force before the release. (Stan can correct
>>>me on this if I am wrong.) Note that the tabulation of documents
>>>received by the archives listed every document that the AF
>>>released in this particular record group. However, the reference
>>>to any given document was not descriptive: it might say #
>>>1234567 or something like that. Not very helpful. Hence it was
>>>necessary to actually view each document in a 100% search in
>>>order to determine the content of the documents.

<snip>

>>The semantics of what is an examiner is irrelevant to the point.
>>Someone was tasked with numbering the documents in order for
>>them to be archived. In that process, this document was missed,
>>or it was placed into the box later, after the numbering.

>Having been to the archives myself, I would make the observation
>that not always are documents numbered or indexed. I have seen
>many file boxes with a number of files with only withdrawal
>sheets in them, meaning you could compress all the file folders
>to half or more the size of the box... meaning very loose
>filing. I have seen others that were packed to the gills and
>were almost difficult to remove folders.

<snip>

>Having seen archive boxes I could see how it could get missed.
>As to the authenticity of said document I think Stan has
>provided clear evidence that it appears to be real. Was it
>planted? Did somebody in the AF crew deposit it there? We will
>never really know, no matter how much debate happens on this
>subject.


Right on Robert. Kyle, I gather that you don't have any idea how
the system works, so let me repeat some information that has
been published. I have in front of me a 52 page "Preliminary
Inventory of  the Records of Headquarters United States Air
Force (Record Group 341)". It was compiled in 1963 by The
National Archives. The volume of records is 9787 cubic feet.
(There have been additions since). A total of  480 entries are
listed ranging in size from one inch to 2342 feet.

  The CT memo was found in Box 189 of Entry 267 "Correspondence
and Other Documents Relating to Intelligence Activities Overseas
and in the Continental United States. 1945-54" 42 ft. Entry 268
is "Air Intelligence Reports With Supporting Documents Submitted
by Air Attaches and United States and Foreign Government
Intelligence   Agencies. 1942-53." 659 Ft.

At the Presidential Libraries there tend to be Finder's Aids
which list down to file folder titles making searching far
easier.I seem to recall 11 Aids for the NSC alone.at the
Eisenhower Library

The paper work came in in bulk. In general TOP SECRET Material
was somewhat segregated from Lower classification material.The
Archives staff broke it down into Archive Boxes (Low Acid, flip
top, etc. ) There was no detailed inventory. You want to know
what is there, you have to look at it all. in the subheading.
Obviously an inch thick entry is easier to deal with than one
that is 650 Ft.There is no index.

The declassifiers have a  Classification guide prepared by each
separate group. They have to  go through every document. If a
document must be kept classified, they remove it and put a
Withdrawal sheet in its place. At the Ike sometimes a box may
just have 3 withdrawal sheets each listing 10 or more documents
with very cryptic information such as 2pages, memo, TS, James
Lay to Robert Cutler, July 16, 1954 (See page E8 of my Final
Report on Operation Majestic 12). One requests mandatory
classification review. Typical response time several years ago
was running 2 years. This is the item that proves that James Lay
was taking care of things for Cutler as he had been instructed
to. Nobody had a copy of this item until I got mine, years after
discovery of the CTM.

I should also note yet once again that not all TOP SECRET
documents have TS Register numbers despite the false claims of a
number of people to the contrary. Some are in my Final
ReportAlso recall that Box 189 was first handled by
declassification guys(after sitting around since 1963) about 2
weeks after the death of the last surviving MJ-12 member, Jerome
Hunsaker, in September 1984 and handled again just before being
served to Jaime and Bill in July, 1985. I had discovered during
a trip to Washington, DC, in March of 1985,in conversation with
Archivist Ed Reese, that entry 267 was being classification
reviewed and also that the Senator Russell sighting, thanks to
Bob Todd, had been declassified. I kept checking and was finally
informed in June that they had finished with entry 267. Efforts
much latter to obtain the names of the reservists doing the
declassification were unsuccessful. Remember that the cryptic
messages mentioned Reese and Box 189.

Of course one must also note that Phil Klass paid me $1000. for
proving him wrong about the Pica Typeface by providing more than
10 NSC documents using the same type face, that the GAO did find
documents with the unusual security marking TOP SECRET
RESTRICTED, that the slant red pencil mark through TSR has
special significance, that Lay met with Ike on the date of the
CTM etc etc etc.

Stan Friedman









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                    Re: Nick Pope On UK Radio Show - Pope

From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 23:18:26 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 08:34:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope On UK Radio Show - Pope


I'll be a guest on James Whale's show on the Talk Sport radio
station this Wednesday night, between around 11pm and 1am.

I'll be discussing the latest news in ufology, taking questions
from callers and giving listeners the chance to relate details
of any UFO sightings they may have had.

Dr. Edgar Mitchell (Apollo 14 astronaut and author of The Way Of
The Explorer) will be calling in too.

Needless to say, I shall be using the show to pay tribute to
John Mack, discussing his life, his work and his legacy.

Talk Sport broadcasts at 1089/1053am. You can listen online at
the following url:

http://www.talksport.net/listen


Best wishes,

Nick Pope








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                    Astronaut Gordon 'Gordo' Cooper Gone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 22:33:01 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 08:36:01 -0400
Subject: Astronaut Gordon 'Gordo' Cooper Gone


http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041005/ap_on_re_us/obit_cooper_6

I remember as a kid the original 7 astronauts. Was big news
back then.

People would talk about them like they knew them personally and
many did. Gordon Cooper was one of them.

He stepped forward many times to discuss UFOs too.

He's gonna be missed.


Best,

Greg








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                         Gordo Cooper And John Mack

From: Gord Heath UFO*BC <gheath.nul>
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 22:25:49 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 08:37:59 -0400
Subject: Gordo Cooper And John Mack


On this day when Burt Rutan's SpaceShipOne has proven that
mankind's future in space is just beginning, we can share in the
joy of this achievement, and share in the sadness of the passing
of Gordon Cooper from this earth, one of the renowned Mercury
Seven Astonauts, who blazed the trail into space, five decades
ago.

Gordo will also be remembered as one of the astronauts who was
not afraid to speak of his experience in witnessing the landing
of a spaceship from another planet on a remote Air Force Base,
when he was a test pilot in the 1950s.

We can honor the achievements of Gordo Cooper and John Mack, who
died tragically a week ago, by following in their search for
truth and in their bravery in confronting the idea that mankind
is not the only intelligent species that occupies this part of
the galaxy.

This week, as Mount Saint Helens builds towards the crescendo of
a new volcanic eruption, my mind ponders the mystery of
synchronicity in the UFO phenomena. It was back in 1980 when I
remember experiencing a dream about an earthquake and an army
evacuation of stranded people by the army, while I slept on a
mountain in Glacier National Park. The dream synchronized with
the eruption of Saint Helen's, a thousand miles away.

A few years ago, I learned by reading in NUFORCs UFO database,
that the same day as I had a life-altering UFO encounter in
Surrey, British Columbia, in August 1999, another person in
Washington state had a similar encounter. Our connection was
that she had experienced a spiritual awakening when she was
stranded at the time of the Mount Saint Helens eruption in 1980.

I believe the reality of UFOs is that we are dealing with
phenomena that is connected with beings that are much more
advanced in many respects than we are. It makes it hard for us
to understand their motives and technologies, but the
experiences we have in our encounters must surely motivate us to
make our best efforts to understand what they want and why they
are here. Who knows, even the biggest smart asses amongst us may
have something to learn from them.

Here's to Cooper and Mack, and Keyhoe and Hynek and all the
others who have contributed to the study of these mysteries. Let
us go forth and carry the torch they have passed to us.


Gord Heath
UFOBC







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              Fleeing Villagers Mistook Disco Lights For Aliens

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 08:49:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 08:49:52 -0400
Subject: Fleeing Villagers Mistook Disco Lights For Aliens




Source: Ananova

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_1128290.html

10-04-04


Fleeing Villagers Mistook Disco Lights For Aliens

A Romanian village was left deserted after its inhabitants fled
in panic after mistaking disco lights in a nearby town for an
alien invasion.

Villagers in Cristinesti, eastern Romania, thought they were
under attack by aliens when they saw bright, multicoloured
lights in the sky and started leaving the village en masse.

But police who were called out to investigate discovered the
lights were coming from an open air disco in the town of Herta
near the Ukrainian border, the daily Adevarul reported.

They persuaded the villagers to eventually return to their
homes.

Costel Roman, one of the villagers, said: "Everybody was out on
the streets and wondering what to do if the aliens landed.

"We believed we were seeing UFOs and some old legends from
around here about clocks stopping, animals

going crazy and a previous UFO landing in the area suddenly came
to our minds. We were terrified."

He added: "We were so happy when we heard we had escaped an
alien invasion."







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   Oct > Oct 5

                   More News On The Death Of Dr. John Mack

From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 10:28:28 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 08:51:54 -0400
Subject: More News On The Death Of Dr. John Mack


Further enquiries about the situation have revealed the
following;

I have spoken to the coroners court who have told me that Dr.
Mack's death was due to chest injuries. This is slightly unusual
(but not sinister) as death caused by a Road Traffic Accident
usually results from multiple injuries.

The toxicology report on Dr. Mack is not yet available.

How the case proceeds from here depends very much on police
enquiries. Obviously, as the driver of the car was found to be
over the legal alcohol limit for the UK, he will be charged with
driving under the influence etc. Whether he is further charged
with causing death by dangerous driving depends upon the police
and what case they can build.

The driver is due to appear in court again in mid-November and
there will be more news then. The police would not give me the
exact date of the court appearance but strongly hinted at
November 15th. I will do my best to keep the List updated with
developments.


Stuart Miller








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              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 07:40:41 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 08:54:37 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: Santiago Yturria <syturria.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 10:10:50 -0500
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 03:06:33 EDT
>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 16:34:40 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>><snip>

>>>Please, I'm begging you (and Jaime) press Major Soto to push for
>>>these tests to be performed by the Air Force. Without the
>>>results of these tests, (the calibration of the FLIR equipment
>>>and recordings of the oil well fires off the coast,) we're dead
>>>in the water.

>>If there's enough reasonable doubt that let's say the FLIR was
>>used to nail a guy in a boat full of dope and then during the
>>trial I say, " Your Honor, word is that there may be a problem
>>with the technologies used that pointed to my client's arrest!"

>>But then again, it's Mexico. Who knows.

>I would like to make a comment if I may. The alleged Merlin C26A
>FLIR malfunctioning, bad readings due to a misadjustment or bad
>calibration failures are just part of the debunking campaign on
>the Mexican Air Force case. These allegations were invented
>without asolid basis and there is no a hard evidence to sustain
>these allegations.

>Anyone that makes these allegations must prove first to have
>been aboard the actual Merlin C26A and made a technical check of
>both the FLIR and the Radar, with the appropiate equipment and
>qualified technicians experts on both systems.

>The authorized research team was the only one granted access to
>the actual Merlin C26A and it's equipment for the evaluation
>purposes of the investigation and it's results. These results
>are contained in the report and the images included in the
>official research video. Those who claim the alleged misaligment
>of the C26A FLIR and RADAR without being aboard the airpline are
>just making speculations that would have been inmediatelly
>disqualified in any court of law as irrelevant and inmaterial
>evidence.

>So many false facts were invented as part of the debunking
>campaign and each one of those inventions were already exposed.

>There's an old saying well known in Ufology referenced to a top
>goverment official during the early stages of the UFO cover-up
>campaign that says: "Repeat a lie many times and the people will
>finally belive it "

Ok, good stuff, but I think we're missing the point of Mr.
Boone's contribution.

>>Hey John, I'm not too up on Mexican law but, they may have to do
>>the tests because if I were a defense attorney and got wind of a
>>possible malfunction in equipment used to gather evidence I'd
>>use that to the hilt to get my clients off the hook.

I think this is a real blockbuster. Put this together with
poorly trained, undermotivated, and so incompetent Mexican
military aviation systems operators and personnel and we begin
to have a real and unplanned disconnect.

To wit:

"...As a result of poor training and unmotivated incompetence,
Mexican military persons are seeing UFOs, and so are not
competent to monitor drug traffickers..."


alienview.nul -:=A6:-
www.AlienView.net








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   Oct > Oct 5

                                Gordon Cooper

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 07:41:43 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 08:55:37 -0400
Subject: Gordon Cooper


I've read several of the media accounts of Gordon Cooper's
death. Not one of them mentions a word about his outspoken views
on UFOs or his address to the UN on the subject.

Once again, the news media is heavily editing reality for mass
consumption.








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                        Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 08:03:39 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 15:17:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg


>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
>To: UFOUpdates <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 07:41:43 -0500
>Subject: Gordon Cooper

>I've read several of the media accounts of Gordon Cooper's
>death. Not one of them mentions a word about his outspoken views
>on UFOs or his address to the UN on the subject.

That's our job I guess...

>Once again, the news media is heavily editing reality for mass
>consumption.

Evil in action. Are we served?



alienview.nul  -:=A6:-
   www.AlienView.net

=0A






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                         Re: Gordon Cooper - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 09:25:55 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 15:19:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Kaeser


>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
>To: UFOUpdates <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 07:41:43 -0500
>Subject: Gordon Cooper

>I've read several of the media accounts of Gordon Cooper's
>death. Not one of them mentions a word about his outspoken views
>on UFOs or his address to the UN on the subject.

>Once again, the news media is heavily editing reality for mass
>consumption.

For those in this genre, this may be an issue, but Gordon Cooper
will be remembered by most for other reasons that are irrelevent
to his views on UFOs.

If you found this to be missing from a biography that would be
an issue, but I think it's unfair to complain that the media
fails to mention it in (what are in effect) obituary pieces that
highlight the factors in his life that most people remember.


Steve







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                        Mercury Astronaut Cooper Dies

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 15:25:23 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 15:25:23 -0400
Subject: Mercury Astronaut Cooper Dies




Source: Florida Today

http://www.floridatoday.com/!NEWSROOM/spacestoryN1005COOPER.htm

10-04-04

Space News

Mercury Astronaut Cooper Dies

Family, friends recall 77-year-old's passion for space, upbeat
attitude

By John Kelly

CAPE CANAVERAL -- Gordon Cooper, the youngest of the original
Mercury 7 astronauts who risked their lives to blaze the trail
that led to America's victory in the race to put men on the
moon, died Monday.

The fun-loving Air Force test pilot flew the last Mercury
mission in 1963 and commanded the eight-day Gemini 5 mission
that, when it happened in 1965, was the longest a human had
flown in space.

Cooper, 77, suffered cardiac arrest at his home in Ventura,
Calif.

Retiring from NASA in 1970, Cooper never relented as one of
space's biggest boosters.

Indeed, Cooper worked tirelessly for the Astronaut Scholarship
Foundation in Titusville to help raise more than $2 million that
put 188 kids through college to study science, math and other
subjects that might replenish the ranks of big thinkers who
could push America deeper into space.

Cooper frequently returned to Brevard County, the starting point
for his historic flights, to participate in charity events and
reunions with fellow astronauts and space workers.

Recently, at an event here on the 40th anniversary of John
Glenn's historic flight, Cooper said the private sector -- not
the government -- might recharge the space industry.

"Airplanes were not developed by the government, it was
developed by money put up by private citizens to win prizes,
maybe we need something along the same lines in space," he said.

Ironically, Cooper's death came on the same day as a $10 million
prize was won by a maverick aerospace company that is the first
private group to repeat what Cooper and his mates did four
decades ago.

Cooper's passing leaves just three survivors from the original
astronauts chosen in 1959: Walter Schirra, Scott Carpenter and
Glenn, the former U.S. Senator. Alan Shepard, Deke Slayton and
Virgil I. "Gus" Grissom preceded Cooper in death.

The seven men became the face of the America's young space
program, enjoying immense popularity that placed them in the
same league as rock stars, Hollywood actors and ballplayers.

"He truly portrayed the right stuff, and he helped gain the
backing and enthusiasm of the American public, so critical for
the spirit of exploration," NASA Administrator Sean O'Keefe
said.

Cooper made the last flight in Project Mercury, blasting off Pad
14 aboard Faith 7 in May 1963. In a career of firsts, that
flight brought him one unusual distinction: first to sleep in
space.

In the end, Cooper -- ever the perfect pilot -- nailed the
landing even though his automatic flight systems had failed. He
manually flew Faith 7 to splashdown a remarkable four miles from
the recovery ship.

Cooper's second space flight two years later, a two-man Gemini
mission with pilot Charles "Pete" Conrad, broke records for the
amount of time and distance traveled in space. Cooper racked up
225 hours orbiting the Earth over two flights.

NASA veterans recall that Gemini flight as a harrowing string of
technical crises, all of which Cooper and Conrad somehow worked
through with the ground team.

Friends remembered Cooper for his incredible skills as a pilot
and dedication to space flight. Perhaps more importantly, they
remembered his big smile, constant high spirits and his warmth.
A guy who could have turned into an egomaniac instead stayed
grounded and friendly.

"We seven were bonded like brothers, maybe even closer if that's
possible," Schirra said. "Gordon backed me up on my Mercury
flight very well and, in turn, I backed him up on his flight,
which went very well. He now has joined Pete Conrad in orbit."

John Glenn, on business Monday in Orlando, expressed surprise,
saying his old friend's health seemed to be improving the last
time he visited with the Coopers.

"Gordo was one of the most straightforward people I have ever
known -- what you saw was what you got," Glenn said. "Pride in
doing a great job, whatever his assignment, was his trademark.
You could always depend on Gordo. It's hard to believe that
Gordo will no longer be with us in person. I know he'll be with
us in spirit."

"He never said, 'You can't do it.' He was gung-ho on
everything," said Norris Gray of Melbourne, then the fire chief
and emergency operations officer at Kennedy Space Center.

Guenter Wendt of Titusville, known as the "pad leader" for his
work at KSC in the early days of the space program, remembers a
practical joke Cooper played on the press.

Typically, a fully-suited astronauts would walk out of a trailer
near the launch pad, then climb into a cage-like elevator to
ride up to the spaceship atop the rocket.

That day, "Gordo was sitting in the recliner chair, and he said,
'Hey, guess what we're going to do to them?'" Wendt recalled. "I
said, 'Hey, we're all going to get fired!' He said, 'Are you
chicken?' "

Wendt and his colleagues played along. Cooper walked out of the
trailer toward the pad, looking the rocket up and down. Then,
Cooper grabbed the sides of the elevator, shouting, "No, I am
not gonna go!"

An editorial in a trade magazine called for Cooper's demotion
and the workers' firing, Wendt said. "Ever since then. I dubbed
Gordo 'Private 5th Class.' "

George Jenkins of Merritt Island remembered meeting Cooper and
the rest of the Mercury 7 at Langley, Va., in 1959, as the
fledgling Space Task Group was just gearing up into what would
become the National Aeronautics and Space Administration.

An aspiring pilot preparing to go off to the Air Force, Jenkins
confided in the astronauts. Cooper and Grissom took him to the
base store to help him pick out the right uniforms and gear.

"They encouraged me in every way," Jenkins remembered. "So over
we go. They picked all my active-duty Air Force uniform items
for me. Gordo was like, 'No not this. Not this. This is it.'
They were very selective. That was one of the closer moments."

Years later, when Jenkins came to the Cape to manage the Mercury
Control Center, the astronauts remembered him. They always
waved, said hello, or took time to visit with workers.

"That was one tight-knit group," Jenkins said. "It's a sad day."

Cooper's interest in space exploration never waned. Four decades
after his flights, he often spoke of wishes to go to Mars, and
regularly told reporters, "I'd go back in a second."

Contact Kelly at 242-3660 or jkelly.nul

Staff writer Chris Kridler contributed to this report.






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              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 09:44:47 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 15:29:16 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: Santiago Yturria <syturria.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 10:10:50 -0500
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>I would like to make a comment if I may. The alleged Merlin C26A
>FLIR malfunctioning, bad readings due to a misadjustment or bad
>calibration failures are just part of the debunking campaign on
>the Mexican Air Force case. These allegations were invented
>without asolid basis and there is no a hard evidence to sustain
>these allegations.

I hate to be so hard on you but you are ignoring of any basic
analysis of the FLIR video. Even the most basic examination of
the FLIR elevation and azimuth readings, compared with the SUN,
Moon and aircraft body positions will indicate the error in the
FLIR calibration. I have gone a step farther and calibrated the
FLIR readings using landmarks from Landsat images. They confirm
the calibration error.

The FLIR video is not just pretty and impressive pictures of
UFOs but is the basic and pretty good data source for this
investigation. It seems like you are ignoring the data based on
some prejudiced view of the tape.

>Anyone that makes these allegations must prove first to have
>been aboard the actual Merlin C26A and made a technical check of
>both the FLIR and the Radar, with the appropiate equipment and
>qualified technicians experts on both systems.

To have been _aboard_ the aircraft? You are kidding right? We
have the tape and it had elevation and azimuth and latitude and
longitude and time on it. I have to be on board to make an
"allegation". Well, I am not making any allegation, I am simply
telling you the FACTS based on analyzing DATA that the Mexican
Air Force provided to us. Are you implying the FLIR tape was a
fake or tampered with such that we cannot rely on the data that
is on it?

>The authorized research team was the only one granted access to
>the actual Merlin C26A and it's equipment for the evaluation
>purposes of the investigation and it's results. These results
>are contained in the report and the images included in the
>official research video. Those who claim the alleged misaligment
>of the C26A FLIR and RADAR without being aboard the airpline are
>just making speculations that would have been inmediatelly
>disqualified in any court of law as irrelevant and inmaterial
>evidence.

Sadly, this "authorized research team" seems to have the same
capabilities resembling Inspector Clouseau, I wish they would be
more on the Sherlock Holmes level.

Speculations?!? Look at the FLIR video tape data and actually
analyze it!

>So many false facts were invented as part of the debunking
>campaign and each one of those inventions were already exposed.

What debunking? This is just basic facts examination.

You seem to have alot of respect for the guys on the aircraft
but an examination of the transcript during the FLIR video shows
that they are not the highly professional guys you portray. They
seem like regular guys who see something they they can't explain
and freak out about it.

I still cannot see any benefit of Mexico to release this video
before thorough internal analysis. Even after such analysis (and
an assumed UNKNOWN ID), what is the benefit to letting the
public know an uncontrolled set of objects can fly in Mexican
airspace? Sounds lame to me.








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               Re: Bigelow's Inflatable Space Modules - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 11:35:01 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 16:13:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Bigelow's Inflatable Space Modules - Ledger


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 17:44:03 -0500
>Subject: Re: Bigelow's Inflatable Space Modules

>>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 18:15:56 -0300
>>>Subject: Re: Bigelow's Inflatable Space Modules

>><snip>

>>>That should have read, constructed in Texas, Kyle. Whereever
>>>they were manufactured the inference was that safety was
>>>subordinate to some manufacturer's bottom line. This from
>>>memory, from a press release about 5 years ago, from NASANews.
>>>Also I think I've seen reference to this by Dr. Robert Zubrin
>>>[sp].

>>>These newer multi-layered, inflatable modules can take a hit
>>>by a marble sized meteoroid due to it's Kevlar construction and
>>>apparently some of them carry recyclable water in internal
>>>jacket as well.

>Just caught this online:

>http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n0409/27bigelow/

>Apparently JSC is a prime benefactor for Bigelow's group.
>Calling it a mini-Skunkworks is a significant allusion, I think.
>Hopefully we'll get a little of the fabrication business out of
>this one. :)

>Looks like Bigelow's idea is on the fast track!

Hi Kyle,

I've been away. Bigelow apparently wants to find out one way or
the other about what's flitting around up there. If you can't
beat 'em, join'em seems to be his philosophy. Or the heck with
them, I'll find out for myself.

Don Ledger








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             Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul>
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 11:16:24 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 16:15:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 21:02:55 +0100
>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents


>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 20:17:53 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

><snip>

>>There is no point in arguing this increasingly ridiculous thread
>>any longer. It is obvious that an agenda is at work here that
>>precludes any logical argument against it. How this magical
>>sheet of paper avoided previous detection is beyond my
>>comprehension.

>Yes, the agenda is that some UFOs are real, i.e. "True UFOs", so
>it is desirable to assert that at least some of the documents
>which support this idea are genuine. This is known as "Saucer
>Logic", the basic idea of which seems to be that you start with
>what you want to believe then work backwards, rather than
>starting with the evidence and working towards a rational and
>coherent explanation. For another example of "Saucer Logic"
>concerning the MJ-12 papers, see the item, "More on the new MJ-
>12 documents" at:

>http://www.martiansgohome.com/smear/v46/ss991010.htm

For those that went out to this link you will find an issue of
Saucer Smear dated in 1999. The issue was the reporting of Tim
Cooper failing a lie detector test, however because Tim is
protecting the source of the documents, this failure was within
reason according to the polygraph expert.

>And for a real feast of "Saucer Logic" absurdity see

>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/apr/m08-015.shtml

In this one you will find that Harney was demolished by Dick
Hall. Dicks bottom line was: "John Harney ought to examine his
own hidden premises that are leading him quite logically to a
very dubious conclusion. I think he is being irrational."


Cheers,

Robert








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                        CNN On Gordon Cooper - Hicks

From: Simon Hicks <slh.nul>
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 23:53:00 +0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 16:20:09 -0400
Subject: CNN On Gordon Cooper - Hicks


>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
>To: UFOUpdates <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 07:41:43 -0500
>Subject: Gordon Cooper

>I've read several of the media accounts of Gordon Cooper's
>death. Not one of them mentions a word about his outspoken views
>on UFOs or his address to the UN on the subject.

>Once again, the news media is heavily editing reality for mass
>consumption.


Actually, the CNN report at:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/10/04/gordon.cooper/index.html

included as one of the bylines the fact that he believed in a
UFO cover up and then goes on to expand on that further into the
story.

here is an excerpt:

In his post-NASA career, Cooper became known as an outspoken
believer in UFOs and charged that the government was covering up
its knowledge of extraterrestrial activity.

"I believe that these extraterrestrial vehicles and their crews
are visiting this planet from other planets, which obviously are
a little more technically advanced than we are here on Earth,"
he told a United Nations panel in 1985.

"I feel that we need to have a top-level, coordinated program to
scientifically collect and analyze data from all over the Earth
concerning any type of encounter, and to determine how best to
interface with these visitors in a friendly fashion."

He added, "For many years I have lived with a secret, in a
secrecy imposed on all specialists and astronauts. I can now
reveal that every day, in the USA, our radar instruments capture
objects of form and composition unknown to us."







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              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul>
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 12:51:23 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 16:23:41 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 12:02:23 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 16:34:40 -0400
>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>The tests will serve two purposes; they will allow Bruce to
>>determine if the 'objects' that were recorded on the FLIR
>>equipment were flying _above_ the horizon line (and by how much
>>altitude) and it will also eliminate once and for all the 'oil
>>well fire' explanation that has been hanging like a stinking
>>albatross around the neck of this investigation.

>Do not prejudge the outcome. One possibility is as you state,
>but you must be willing to accept the other possiblity that it
>"proves" the "oil well fire" explanation. A serious investigator
>would not bemoan an explanation as a "stinking albatross". It
>currently has alot of data to support it which the tests would
>help confirm or deny.

>>Until the Mexican Air Force complies with Bruce's simple test
>>requests, the question of the oil well fires will haunt the
>>investigation.

>Haunt? If an explanation makes sense and mostly covers the facts
>to a high degree, its not haunting. Answers do not haunt!

>>The only proof that will silence noisy debunkers
>>with a personal axe to grind, like Mr. Franz.

>I have observed enough close-mindedness on both sides of the UFO
>issue to know that regardless of "proof", people will keep their
>own ideas/opinions. How different this is from real science!

>>Please, I'm begging you (and Jaime) press Major Soto to push for
>>these tests to be performed by the Air Force. Without the
>>results of these tests, (the calibration of the FLIR equipment
>>and recordings of the oil well fires off the coast,) we're dead
>>in the water.

>What's Soto's email/snail mail address? I forwarded my request
>as Dr. Maccabee asked through Maussan (with no feedback).

>>Despite remarks on this List that dismiss this case as a 'passe'
>>issue, it is very much alive and promises to be quite enlightening
>>in the future.

Hello James, All

You wrote:

>I doubt it. Why the groundless enthusiasm? The only good thing
>about this case was the willingness of the military to share
>this data.

Groundless enthusiasm? You reveal how little you know of the
case and the FLIR document with that remark.

First, the real object of curiosity on the FLIR recording has
nothing to do with those lights! It is, in point of fact, the
_radar_ data that is being reported on the object that was
approaching the city of Carmen that is most intriguing of all
and which may 'possibly' be evidence for something _very
unusual_ to have been flying around in the sky that day. That is
why I refer to the FLIR lights discussion as an 'Albatross
around the neck of this investigation.' It has proven to be a
huge distraction from what may be real 'evidence' of the
presence of a "UFO" in the sky that day.

Everybody is so hung up on the lights that little or no
attention has paid to the fact that the object that was being
tracked approaching Carmen was flying in a most erratic fashion.
(Speeding up and slowing down as it flew.)

How is it you know nothing of this possible 'genuine unknown'
that was reported/observed/followed, by the radar operator? If
anyone is exhibiting 'groundless enthusiasm' for a theory it is
you I'm afraid. Your attention is in the wrong place. Why is
this object, the only one on the whole recording that may
possibly be a 'genuine UFO', not being discussed at all?

Everybody is so focused and exhibiting such 'tunnel-vision' on
those damned lights, that the genuine mystery/anomaly in the
FLIR recording, continues to go completely ignored by all the
"armchair commentators." (Such as yourself.)

I was working closely with Bruce for _weeks_ translating the
data that was being reported by the radar operator. Macabee's
investigation had settled around this object because; a. it's
movements proved to be most intriguing, and b. we were, (and
still are,) waiting for those tests to be performed by the
Mexican military before focusing any more time or attention on
the lights.

If there is any 'evidence' for a "UFO" on that FLIR recording,
it is the _radar_object_ not the lights! The shame of it all is,
the only recording we have of the radar target/object over
Carmen is an _audio_ recording of the data the radar man was
calling out. They do not make or save recordings of radar, only
the FLIR. Our mutual loss in terms of having any 'hard' evidence
in hand.

Now, if you want to spend your time in a way that may yield some
actual results, then focus your attention on the radar object
over Carmen and leave any discussion about the 'oil well fires'
until the Mexican military has conducted the test
flight/recording that Bruce requested. And, calibrated the FLIR
so that we know if and how much 'slack' and in which direction
up or down, may exist in the FLIR equipment. If the calibration
test shows that the lights were in fact 'above' the horizon, I
will await Mr. Franz's 'flying' oil well theory to follow on its
heels.

Right now, those lights mean diddly. The _radar object_ is where
everyone's attention needs to be focused. Let's all ask the
Mexican military to perform the tests, then after we have the
results in hand, we'll talk about em.

Welcome to the List, James. (I'm not familiar with your name so
I'm assuming you're new. If you've been around awhile, excuse
me, I've been away from the List recently.)

My best to all...


John Velez








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                          Re: Gordon Cooper - Pope

From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 18:26:09 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 16:27:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Pope


>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
>To: UFOUpdates <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 07:41:43 -0500
>Subject: Gordon Cooper

>I've read several of the media accounts of Gordon Cooper's
>death. Not one of them mentions a word about his outspoken views
>on UFOs or his address to the UN on the subject.

>Once again, the news media is heavily editing reality for mass
>consumption.

If you go to Google News and search on "Gordon Cooper and UFOs"
(use the plural) you'll find quite a selection of news reports that are now
mentioning his views on UFOs.

Here's a link to a transcript of an interesting interview with Gordon:

http://abcnews.go.com/onair/DailyNews/chat_cooper1121.html


Best wishes,

Nick Pope








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               Edgar Mitchell To Reveal New Evidence Of UFOs &

From: Stephen MILES Lewis <elfis.nul>
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 17:37:19 -0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 16:31:21 -0400
Subject: Edgar Mitchell To Reveal New Evidence Of UFOs &


Howdy Listers,

I'm sure most of you have seen this rumor floating around the
UFO Lists.

Any thots? Anyone going to this conference?

SMiles Lewis


Astronaut Edgar Mitchell To Reveal New Evidence Of UFOS And ETs

Edgar Mitchell, the sixth man to walk on the moon, is about to
reveal all about his experiences of UFOs and ETs at the Living
The Field Conference 2004 in London on 9th &10th October.

Not only will he be presenting new evidence that extra-
terrestrial life exists and has already made contact with earth,
but he will also be exposing the secret 'Men In Black' style
agency which has operated for decades to suppress this
information.

Edgar is not your average astronaut. As one of the crew of
Apollo 14, he was on a mission to explore outer space when,
suddenly, he had a life-altering insight: that everything in the
universe was forever connected. From that moment, he realized he
should be exploring inner space, not outer space. On his return,
he founded the Institute of Noetic Sciences to investigate
consciousness, and has since spearheaded this institute's
pioneering research into human consciousness.


http://www.wddty.co.uk/thefield/conference_about.asp








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                       Cooper Tales of UFO Encounters

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 10:45:44 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 16:33:43 -0400
Subject: Cooper Tales of UFO Encounters


Source: Los Angeles Times

http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-me-cooper5oct05,1,501394.story?coll=la-ne
ws-science

October 5, 2004


Leroy Gordon Cooper Jr., 77; One Of Mercury 7 Astronauts

By John Johnson
Times Staff Writer

Leroy Gordon "Gordo" Cooper Jr., one of the most colorful of the
Mercury 7 astronauts, whose exploits and foibles were made
famous in the book and movie "The Right Stuff," died Monday at
his home in Ventura. He was 77.

<snip>

In the book, Cooper also embarrassed some of his old NASA
colleagues with tales of UFO encounters and conspiracy theories.
Claiming that film that he shot from Gemini 5 had been
confiscated, he quoted President Johnson telling him, "Son, I
ordered it classified."

In 1978, he asked a U.N. panel to coordinate data on UFO
encounters "to determine how best to interface with these
visitors in a friendly fashion.









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                     Re: Tribute To Dr John Mack - Pope

From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 18:49:07 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 16:34:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Tribute To Dr John Mack - Pope


>From: David Chace <davidwchace.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2004 06:09:55 -0700
>Subject: Re: Tribute To Dr John Mack

<snip>

>In addition to his writings, we also have Dr. Mack's television
>appearances, radio interviews, conference presentations and
>things he may have said in private conversation, though
>obviously the latter are hard to verify.

<snip>

Here's a link to a review I wrote of the Intruders Foundation
conference held in New York on 6 May 2000:

http://www.intrudersfoundation.org/abduction_conference.html

The review was based on my detailed contemporaneous notes and
includes material on John Mack's presentation. I hope that List
members mourning John's passing will find this record of his
comments interesting.

The review also contains an account of a presentation by Budd
Hopkins. This may be of interest to List members who have been
discussing Budd's work with children who he believes may have
had alien abduction experiences.


Best wishes,

Nick Pope








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             Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 12:58:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 16:57:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 18:08:37 -0300
>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

<snip>

>Right on Robert. Kyle, I gather that you don't have any idea how
>the system works

<snip>

>Stan Friedman

Hi all,

My entry into this discussion was to assert a simple
observation. A sheet of creased paper, when placed into a file
box... horizontally or vertically, between other sheets of paper
or file folders... will tend to lose its creases over time. This
was my point in refutation of a statement to the contrary made
by Dr. Maccabee. My point has been refuted in a number of ways,
but not to my satisfaction. Creased paper in the midst of non-
creased paper tends to become non-creased paper over time. I
didn't think I was indicting the entire "MJ-12 is real"
community. Quite the contrary. If you look just a few yards down
the logical path thus far, it is easy to see that my point
actually leans in favor of authenticity. Be that as it may,
however...

Stan, I fully admit that I have never set foot in any of the
archives you have spent years perusing. I fully admit that the
C-T memo could be authentic. I fully admit that the lack of a
control number does not prove a fraud. I fully admit that the
Lay document appears to corroborate the C-T memo. All of this I
completely admit.

I applaud your $1000 win against Klass. He seems to think that
making bets replaces research. I have a lot more trouble with
his logic than with yours in most cases. That's why I don't post
to a skeptic's list.

But I cannot accept all these admissions as proof that the
documents are authentic. They are only tantalizing tiles in a
mosaic. They do not complete the picture in my mind.

I have never ridiculed your research, but I find several issues
with some of the statements made, and to which I felt compelled
to respond.

I try not to step into this List unless I feel somewhat
qualified. My work history was in litigation copying and
reprographics for over 10 years. I have experience with archival
file boxes, and the properties of paper in such conditions. I
have numbered documents myself with machine stamps and labels
for litigation, and have found un-numbered documents in file
boxes from time to time.

You can rightly assert that since I've never seen this box, or
this archive, then I am unqualified to form an opinion as to the
forces at work on this sheet of paper in this file box. I can
just as rightly assert that since neither of you typed this
document and placed it in this file box, then neither of you is
qualified to form an opinion as to the forces at work in its
origin. One can only speculate.

If the former is your assertion however, then I apologize for
posting my naive, uninformed opinion.

I remain as before, willing to accept the possibility of a
coverup of UFO information, but unconvinced that these documents
constitute proof. Tiles in a mosaic created by others, which we
are left to peruse and on which we expound.

My biggest problem with this line of research is this:

While it implies a completely nefarious agenda on the part of
the government, and demands a level of secrecy that boggles the
mind, it also presupposes that this same nefarious-agenda'ed
government is incapable of producing red herring evidence for
the benefit of those who would seek it out... just as one would
expect such a nefarious agenda to produce. Negative
propaganda...disinformation.

How better to cover up a real truth than by creating a false
truth to occupy those who seek to uncover it? Elegant, simple,
effective, and glaringly exemplary of government behavior in the
past... and the present. Our government has shown a startling
propensity for creating truths for the benefit of critics...and
ridiculing those that attempt to reveal the deception. One can
only guess at the ones that haven't yet been discovered.

I repeat that I have utmost respect for the work that you, Dr.
Maccabee and others do on a regular basis. But if you make what
I find to be a questionable leap of logic, and test it by asking
questions, am I inherently wrong because I haven't been there
and done that? And if my naive logic is wrong, does that
inherently make you right? If so, perhaps I am posting in the
wrong forum.

$1000 of Phil Klass' money doesn't prove that the MJ-12
documents are authentic. Though I fully agree that Mr. Klass was
wrong, as usual.

Bravo to you all, and I'll kindly butt out now. Next!


Best Regards,

Kyle







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              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 14:32:39 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 16:58:38 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 07:40:41 -0500
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>>From: Santiago Yturria <syturria.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 10:10:50 -0500
>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 03:06:33 EDT
>>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul>
>>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>>Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 16:34:40 -0400
>>>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>><snip>

<snip>

>Ok, good stuff, but I think we're missing the point of Mr.
>Boone's contribution.

>>>Hey John, I'm not too up on Mexican law but, they may have to do
>>>the tests because if I were a defense attorney and got wind of a
>>>possible malfunction in equipment used to gather evidence I'd
>>>use that to the hilt to get my clients off the hook.

>I think this is a real blockbuster. Put this together with
>poorly trained, undermotivated, and so incompetent Mexican
>military aviation systems operators and personnel and we begin
>to have a real and unplanned disconnect.

>To wit:

>"...As a result of poor training and unmotivated incompetence,
>Mexican military persons are seeing UFOs, and so are not
>competent to monitor drug traffickers..."

Thanks Al, you've added much needed info here.

I now recall how the Mexican Air Force was berated for not being
up to par or some such. If memory serves that came from Capt.
Franz?

Forgive me Capt. if I'm at error here.

What's important is either they're up to par or they're not. Add
to that some data that their equipment wasn't tuned correctly?
Sounds like a comedy of errors somewhere.

If things are that bad in Mexico regarding the men and material
used for drug interdiction and apprehension then there's no way
they should be able to introduce that data in court. President
Fox is an attorney if I recall. His Attorney General if memory
serves is or was a top knotch attorney too.

An honest mistake is an honest mistake. Yet since the incident
hasn't occured again and I'm sure there've been numerous flights
past the same location since this story broke months ago,
something need be looked into.

I don't think the Mexican Government is anywhere near
incompetent, I just think they're buried in so much corruption
from within and without that they're up to their ears in bad
guys. At least the folks there rose up against that 75 year
regime and have been making strides to the better. That country
is awash in natural resources and two gorgeous coastlines that
money couldn't buy. With some TLC they could turn Mexico into a
paradise in less than 10 years. Just from the sports fishing
industry alone! ( Yes I've heard from an LA Sherrif pal of mine
about those giant catfish down there :).

UFOs are big in Mexico. The people there aren't as afraid to
speak out like they are in other countries. The fact that the
Mexican Government was open enough to share this info with the
people is a sign of some change and courage that other countries
should take note of.  I live in Los Angeles and the Mexican
American community is helpful, pleasant, generous, hard working.
They speak openly of UFOs and other paranormal issues with
eloquence and rare insight.

Something is going on in Mexico and we can't chalk it all up to
goofing up.


Best,

Greg








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              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: Santiago Yturria <syturria.nul>
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 14:07:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 17:02:22 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 12:02:23 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 16:34:40 -0400
>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>The tests will serve two purposes; they will allow Bruce to
>>determine if the 'objects' that were recorded on the FLIR
>>equipment were flying _above_ the horizon line (and by how much
>>altitude) and it will also eliminate once and for all the 'oil
>>well fire' explanation that has been hanging like a stinking
>>albatross around the neck of this investigation.

>Do not prejudge the outcome. One possibility is as you state,
>but you must be willing to accept the other possiblity that it
>"proves" the "oil well fire" explanation. A serious investigator
>would not bemoan an explanation as a "stinking albatross". It
>currently has alot of data to support it which the tests would
>help confirm or deny.

The oil flames speculation is based on the alleged FLIR
disadjustments and a wrong calibration as well as the Radar
malfunctioning implying the FLIR camera was pointing to the
ground level all the time without moving up and down by the
operator during the incident even that the elevation levels were
reading in the FLIR screen counters.

This invention was made to support the speculation because the
actual Merlin C26A March 5, 2004 flying path was provided by the
Air Force for the civilian research purposes. This flying path
proves how long that Cantarell site was from the airplane, how
far the C26A flied from Ciudad del Carmen after it's turn in
direction northwest to Quintana Roo at 16:52:53. Have you seen
the maps and graphics Mr. Smith? I'm sure you have not seen
anything.

As this C26A flying path maps prove the REAL observation angles
during the incident and how far it was from that oil flames site
the debunker invented the FLIR disfunctioning and discalibration
story to justify the speculation. As the C26A radar detected
also a target to the front of the plane that is in direction
northwest and another target to the right that is in direction
to the west the debunker had to invent that radar was also
malfunctioning due to disadjustemts and erroneus readings
implying that radar was not accurate.

These false allegations have not any solid base since this
person have never been aboard the C26A, have never made a
technical check of the equipment, have never gained access to
the FLIR and radar to make his own technical evaluation and
judgement in order to conclude both systems are not accurate.

You know very well Mr. Smith that this meassurements are
strictly required in order to sustain any of those allegations,
alleged evidences that would have been dismissed inmediately in
any court of law. Therefore those statements without solid basis
are just inadmisible evidences derived by mere hypotesis, in one
word : inventions.   > >I have observed enough close-mindedness
on both sides of the UFO >issue to know that regardless of
"proof", people will keep their >own ideas/opinions. How
different this is from real science!

I'm sorry but real science is not the humankind panacea, not
anymore. We are living a new age in our evolution and as far as
I know real science in the exact sense of the term is not a
global definition. There are many interpretations and
manifestations that the word science define. Which one are you
referring to.

Besides to my knowledge the fundamental principle of science is
the continued proccess in experimentation, the research into new
ways of knowledge, a research without barriers that allow us to
discover unknown things that contribute to our evolution. Real
science must be open to change it's protocols all the time due
to new discoveries and advances and must have an open posture to
these changes to be made. That's the way I interpret real
science.

>I doubt it. Why the groundless enthusiasm? The only good thing
>about this case was the willingness of the military to share
>this data. However, I think they have learned their lesson. What
>they should have done was intensively investigate it internally
>prior to a public release.

You are wrong Mr. Smith. The Air Force did their own
investigation of the March 5,2004 incidents. Fow two months they
studied and analyzed the FLIR footage, the C26A official inform,
the crew interrogation sessions, the Campeche wheater conditions
report, the C26A equipment evaluation, the posible causes and
effects according to the military strategic scheme, all these
procedures in colaboration with their internal advisors. The
results concluded an event unknown in origin and nature, the
case was declared unexplained.

That was when Secretary of Defense took the decision to invite
the civilian research to colaborate in the investigation in the
legitimate interest to try to understand and define the nature
of this incident and the posible causes and effects to the
aerial security. This invitation was made at the end of April
2004 and the civilian research started.

Did you know this Mr. Smith? It's clear to me that you don't
know the facts and history of this case.

>What was their motivation in a public
>release? Were they afraid and hoped to warn the public? Maybe
>Franz is right in his assertions of Mexican military
>incompetence. I have not wanted to consider this, because I
>support the U.S. military. But I have been reading about the
>Mexican government recently and it does seem very corrupt, maybe
>that is somehow affecting their military.

Well excuse me Mr. Smith. Where do you live, in Mexico? What
solid evidences do you have to make such serious statements
about our armed forces? Who are you to judge the reputation of
our military personal. As far as I know you are not a military
expert, a military advisor or a foreign affaires consultant. You
are not a CIA or NSA member or even a US goverment official
neither you have the credentials that authorize you to make such
statements regarding our military institutions.

What I think is that you just read the newspapers and the
Internet sitting in your desk and watching the world's political
conflicts in wich case I will ask you this: Do you know the
actual level of reputation and credibility of your own US army
after the Iraq human rights and abuses were exposed by the media
? You talked about corruption and other serious implications,
are'nt these the acts recently exposed on tv and newspapers in
the US defining the US troups in Iraq? What do you have to say
to this? You must first review your domestic affaires in your
own country Mr. Smith before attemting to judge other countries
deficiencies.

>The oil well flare theory seems to be pretty good so far for the
>Campeche case.

Your posture is very easy to explain, at least for me. You are a
world's famous skeptic Mr. Smith and that's a fact. You have
been doing an extensive work following your principles and
beliefs and to me you are sincerely devoted to your vocation. As
a skeptic it's clear to me that you don't belive in the UFO
phenomena neither in the paranormal phemomena and will continue
with your work defining yourself as a scientist and objective
researcher. That's fine with me and I respect your posture.

But the true facts of the SEDENA case must be presented at all
time as well as the real official informations to prevent the
case elements to be distorted, missinterpreted or ignored.
That's what I ask and the motive of my clearification
statements. This was necesarely required. On the other hand it's
clear that our mutual postures will remain irreconciliable.


Santiago Yturria








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                          Re: Gordon Cooper - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 15:17:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 17:03:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - King


>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
>To: UFOUpdates <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 07:41:43 -0500
>Subject: Gordon Cooper

>I've read several of the media accounts of Gordon Cooper's
>death. Not one of them mentions a word about his outspoken views
>on UFOs or his address to the UN on the subject.

>Once again, the news media is heavily editing reality for mass
>consumption.

Hi Lan,

What troubles me more is that these things proverbially come in
threes which leads to an even more troubling question...
who's next?

It doesn't surprise me in the least that Cooper's more
controversial statements are not reported. In recounting his
accomplishments, those relating to his time as an astronaut are
those with which we are most familiar. They also help define him
as a patriot, a pioneer, a man with the right stuff. Obviously,
expressing belief in alien visitors and claiming to have
witnessed a UFO landing are not the comments that make for a
suitably sober retrospective. Telling, but not surprising.

I was personally shocked at his landing story. It seems like
huge news to me. If there was a big book or movie deal about it,
it would have been a media frenzy.

Best Regards, and my condolences as well to the friends and
family of Gordon Cooper, a great American and one of the few who
have seen the earth as might an alien visitor. What a liberating
perspective.


Kyle








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                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 40

From: John Hayes <John.nul>
Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 16:18:44 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 06:33:23 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 40


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan.nul>
==========================

      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 9, Number 40
October 6, 2004
Editor: Joseph Trainor

E-mail: Masinaigan.nul
Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/


FOUR ANGELS SIGHTED
OVER WICHITA, KANSAS

      On Tuesday, September 28, 2004, at 8:20 p.m., Luke M.
and his buddy, Jeff, were playing basketball in the
parking lot of the Trinity Wesleyan Methodist Church in
Wichita, Kansas (population 344,284) when they had a most
unusual experience.
      "I was playing basketball, the second time in the
day," Luke reported, "I was there with my friend Jeff.  We
were playing basketball to spend time until my friend was
done with church.  We hadn't seen my friend Glenda in a
couple of years.  The sighting happened maybe 10, 20
minutes before I saw her."
      "I was standing there in front of the basketball
goal, about to take another shot.  As I suddenly stepped
left, unknowingly, to see something strange in the sky.
The basketball goal faces north, in which I was facing
south to shoot hoops.  Anyway, I stepped to the left to
get the basketball goal out of my way, and I was puzzled
and awed at what I see in the maybe half-cloudy night sky.
I tried to tell my friend Jeff what I was seeing, but I am
in shock."
      "I nearly dropped my basketball when I saw a V-wing
formation of four angel/butterfly/moth-shaped things
flying through the sky.  They were flying like birds or
fighter jets do in a V-wing formation, with one on the
left of the formation and two on the right and one in the
middle or the front.  They were perfectly ordered, in
equal distance from each other for the entire time.  They
were maybe the size of a Lear jet or maybe a (Boeing) 747,
and at maybe an angle of 45 to 50 degrees up (above the
horizon--J.T.).  They were perfectly south, away from the
church, not gaining or losing altitude.  I saw them for a
total of maybe 10 to 15 seconds."
      "As for what they looked like, they looked like great
butterflies that were made completely of light.  You could
say that the entire content of their bodies was like a
lightning bug's lit-up butt but completely like a yellow
house (light) bulb and without any light radiating from
it.  (The bodies did not glow or have an aura--J.T.)  They
were no airplanes, and it was nothing like what people say
an alien craft looks like."
      "My friend Jeff, later on that night, said something
about the four objects maybe being 'angels coming to
collect people before the asteroid might hit today,'
referring to the Toutatis asteroid's 930,000-mile
approach" to Earth on Wednesday, September 29, 2004.
      "I then thought they actually did look like angels,
but I never thought an angel could have butterfly-like
wings.  I felt strongly all week that the coming of
Toutatis could bring me some sort of sign.  I didn't know
what it could be, though."
      "I know they were not airplanes because they were
made of light--for one--and were not shaped right, but
mainly that there were four objects flapping their wings
just like a butterfly, and airplanes cannot flap their
wings like a butterfly."
      "In conclusion, all I can say is that I saw what
clearly appeared to be four angels flying in the sky.  I
had already seen first-hand proof of supernatural
existence, but this is another solid-proof experience for
me.  This is the third time that I have been shown that
there is something out there.  I guess maybe I submitted
this (report) because I have never heard of anything like
this happening before, and I never thought it could
actually happen to me."
      Luke added, "I don't know what religion I am,
previously Christian, but now I don't know which religion,
for certain reasons.  The point is, I do believe in a God-
like presence (maybe in Bushi-do or Gnostic-type--L.M.),
and I do believe in ghosts, since I have had frequent
experiences with them."  (Email Form Report)
(Editor's Comment:  Reading Luke's report, the first thing
that popped into my head was The Four Horsemen of the
Apocalypse.  The quartet was seen at Cova da Iria in
Portugal on September 13, 1917 by the Fatima seers, Lucia
Abobora dos Santos, Francisco Marto and Jacinta Marto.  As
for an angelic presence in Kansas, who knows?  Maybe
they're having dress rehearsals for the Rapture.)


POLICE SEEK "MANIMAL"
IN ENTRE RIOS, ARGENTINA

      "Police and locals sought a 'strange creature' at
Colonia Elia in the eastern reaches of" Entre Rios
province in northeastern Argentina.
      "The police action came about when a neighbor
reported that a large person or a large animal caused
considerable damage in a henhouse behind his house, when
it killed several hens."
      "A footprint, hair and other traces were found at the
site, which gave the claim credibility."
      "Oscar Resteinor, a resident of the rural area,
reported to the Colonia Elia sheriff's office that for 20
days now he has been witnessing the presence of this
being, with clearly abnormal characteristics, prowling
around his house.  He claims that he has not been able to
identify if it's an animal or a person.  It also had
yellowish hair of considerable length, claw-like nails,
and it left large footprints, walking with its hind legs
like a human or a primate."
(Editor's Comment:  From the description, it sounds like a
Mapinguary, a large ape-like creature, known as "the
Bigfoot of South America.")
      "After the attack to his henhouse, Resteinor and his
family and neighbors began a watch in order to catch the
strange being, according to Analisis Digital," a Web site
in Buenos Aires.
      "The Entre Rios police admit to having found several
footprints and hairs measuring between 6 and 10
centimeters (2.5 to 4 inches) in length, as well as a claw
or fingernail embedded in a tree trunk."
      "Plaster casts were made of the footprints, which
were described as 'man-like' but larger and wider than
normal."
      Entre Rios is the Argentinian province bordering both
Brazil and Paraguay.  It's located 600 kilometers (360
miles) north of Buenos Aires.  (See the InfoBAE Web site
for September 28, 2004.  Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales y
Gloria Coluchi para estas noticias.)


NIGHT SAUCERS SPOTTED
IN ARGENTINA

      "The UFO phenomenon manifested itself last night
(Monday, September 27, 2004) when several drivers
traveling from Monte Hermoso to Bahia Blanca saw red and
white lights in the sky for several minutes, which later
vanished over the fields."
      "Drivers on their way back from Monte Hermoso to
Bahia Blanca reported having seen several flying saucers
on National Highway 3 and Route 229, which provides access
to the town of Punta Alta."
      "Carlos Ceria, a resident of Punta Alta and one of
the witnesses to the event, said he was 'driving on
Highway 3 when, to the left of the road, my family and I
observed two flying objects of great (luminous-S.C.)
intensity and whitish in color."
      "'Afterward, having turned onto Route 229, we also
saw red lights suspended in the air for 15 minutes, but
then seemed to turn off, as though there was a landing
strip on the field,' Ceria added."
      "Sources at the Traffic Police in Bahia Blanca," a
large city located 300 kilometers (180 miles) south of
Argentina's capital, Buenos Aires, "reported that 'many
people remarked about what had happened, but it isn't
something that can be investigated by the police.'"
      "'Several drivers phoned us last night to report that
they had seen UFOs at the 630-kilometer marker on National
Highway 3, in the location known as Bajo Hondo,' said the
police spokesman."  (See the InfoBAE Web site for
September 28, 2004, "UFOs reported in Monte Hermoso."
Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales y Gloria Coluchi para
estas noticias.)


MYSTERIOUS FIREBALL SEEN
BY MOTORISTS IN UK

      "Early morning motorists driving through Norfolk and
Cambridgeshire yesterday (Sunday, September 26, 2004)
could hold the key to finding out more about the meteorite
or fireball sighted over the region."
      "Around twenty motorists driving down the area's
roads from around 6:30 a.m. reported seeing the fireball,
which was described as having a bright glow followed by a
long trail of light."
      "They reported their sightings to Graham Barnard on
his Today in Norfolk early morning radio programme on BBC
Radio Norfolk."
      "Mr. Barnard told the EDP that around 20 callers rang
in from around 6:30 a.m. to report to presenter (announcer
in the USA--J.T.) Wally Webb" of having seen "a fireball
mainly in the sky above the west and south of the county."
      "'Callers had their own theories as to what it was,
ranging from a fireball, a firework, or, in the case of a
caller from the Thetford area, an aircraft on fire, but we
quickly put listeners' minds to rest that it wasn't an
aircraft,' said Mr. Barnard."
      "Yesterday the fireball was confirmed as being a
fireball or meteorite by Mark Lawick-Thompson, chairman of
the Norwich Astronomical Society."
      "He said the fireball could have broken up in the
atmosphere, and the fragments might have landed but, until
more detailed information about the sighting" was
gathered, "it was not possible to say if any fragments had
landed."
      "The last reported sighting of a fireball in East
Anglia was in Peterborough in 1991."
      "His view was shared by research scientist Vicky
Pearson who said the sighting had been reported early
yesterday morning in locations mainly in Southern England,
including Oxford and Poole in Dorset, but there had also
been sightings in the Midlands."
      "Miss Pearson, who is based at the Planetary and
Space Science Research Institute at the Open University in
Milton Keynes, said she had not received any of the
reported sightings in Norfolk and Cambridgeshire."
      "She said that, until more information is available,
it would not be possible to say if fragments had landed."
(Many thanks to Jim Hickman, Executive Director of
Skywatch International, for this news story.)


SILVER SPHERE SIGHTED
IN ENGLEWOOD, COLORADO

      On Sunday, September 26, 2004, at 6:15 p.m.,
eyewitness Stace reported, "I went outside" at her home in
Englewood, Colorado (population 31,727), a suburb of
Denver, "to see if I might catch a glimpse of the sphere
I've been seeing a lot of recently.  It was a very crisp,
clear evening, with a few high clouds drifting south to
north.  After just a few minutes, I noticed a bright,
stationary object sitting in the sky above and in front of
me--about 30 degrees east of the zenith."
      "I guessed right away that this was the same or a
similar orb as the one I've reported to NUFORC and MUFON
recently (and very similar to the one reported recently
over the Twin Cities in Minnesota--Stace)."
      "Through binoculars, it was a steady white sphere,
but to the naked eye it resembled a non-blinking bright
star or planet shining in the blue sky.  From my deck
chair, using the overhead wires as a guide, I confirmed
that the object was absolutely stationary, and remained so
for 20 full minutes, not moving at all.  Occasionally, a
wispy cloud passed through or behind where the object
sat."
      "At about 6:25 p.m., my 16-year-old daughter came
home, and I called her out and she looked at the object
through binoculars and said it looked just like a white
ball.  Her 19-year-old friend arrived at about 6:30 p.m.
and also came out and took a look at it through
binoculars.  We were discussing how strange it was that it
seemed that whenever I looked for the sphere, I saw it."
      "I looked up again after a few seconds of not
looking, and it had vanished.  We were all very surprised
that it had been shining so brightly, and then completely
disappeared.  The time was exactly 6:35 p.m."
      "The only thing I can determine may have led to it
vanishing is that the sun may have dipped far enough
behind the mountains that, if reflecting light, it very
quickly lost the light source.  However, according to the
Denver-area statistics, local sunset time was nearly 15
minutes later at 6:49 p.m."
      Stace estimated that the sphere's altitude was
between 15,000 and 20,000 feet (4,500 to 6,000 meters).
(Email Form Report)


LUMINOUS RED UFOs SEEN
BY A FAMILY IN GEORGIA

      On Saturday, September 25, 2004, eyewitness Kaye and
her family did some skywatching in Douglasville, Georgia
(population 20,065).  She reported, "Just wanted to tell
someone about something I and my whole family saw this
past Saturday night.  We were outside here in
Douglasville, Georgia, around the campfire.  We had my
husband's very powerful scope/night vision glasses.  When
you look into it, you can see millions of stars that you
can't see with the naked eye.  Every time you look up with
it, you can see a shooting star that no one else can see.
It's really awesome."
      "We have done this about three nights now.  On
Saturday night, when we were looking up, we saw a red
light dancing in the sky.  It looked just like a
'spotlight' they use for the openings of businesses so
everyone would come.  I looked away (from the scope),
thought I could see it in the sky, but I couldn't.  I
looked again (through the scope) and I continued to see it
whirl around and go in all directions.  It was almost too
fast to keep up with."
      "Sometimes there were two at once.  They could go in
all directions, turning and going around, then would even
stop and stand still.  We watched for about an hour,
letting everyone see it.  But what in the world--or out--
could it have been?"
      Douglasville, Ga. is on Route 8 about 20 miles (32
kilometers) west of Atlanta.  (Email Form Report)


SCINTILLATING UFO SEEN
IN A TORONTO SUBURB

      On Wednesday, September 29, 2004, eyewitness B.M. was
outdoors at his workplace in East York, Ontario, a suburb
of Toronto, Canada's largest city, when he spotted
something odd approaching from the south, flying over Lake
Ontario and then Danforth Avenue.
      "I had come outside for a breath of fresh air at work
and noticed in an otherwise clear, cloudless sky a
brilliant light in the distance, glowing and flashing
every colour of the rainbow--green, blue, red, purple,
white, yellow."
      "There were other lights on the object, near the end,
and these were flashing like them.  The object did not
move for over an hour, but just stayed in place, glowing
and radiating these colours.  Being that I was at work, I
could not watch it all night, but at last check it had
been there over an hour."  (Email Form Report)


DR. JOHN E. MACK DIES IN
LONDON TRAFFIC MISHAP

      Dr. John Edward Mack, the world's leading authority
on alien abduction, died Monday, September 27, 2004, when
he was struck by a car while in a crosswalk on Totteridge
Road in London.
      The vehicle was reportedly driven by a drunk driver.
      London police pronounced Dr. Mack dead at the scene
of the accident.
      Dr. Mack was in London as one of "several guest
speakers at the T.E. Lawrence Symposium in Oxford.  Dr.
Mack's afternoon presentation to the panel was so warmly
received that he was asked to stay and present an
additional evening talk, which again went well with a
positive response.  Afterward, he went to dinner with
friends."
      He was walking along Totteridge Road towards the
private home where he was staying when the mishap
occurred.  He was one week shy of his 75th birthday.
      Dr. Mack was born October 4, 1929 and graduated from
Oberlin College in Ohio in 1951.  He graduated cum laude
from Harvard Medical School in 1955, certified in adult
and child psychoanalysis.  "The dominant thread of his
life has been the explanation of how one's perception of
the world affects one's relationships.  He pioneered the
concept of worldview in early studies of dreams,
nightmares and teen suicides."
      In 1977, Dr. Mack wrote a detailed biography of T.E.
Lawrence, better known as "Lawrence of Arabia."  The book,
T.E. Lawrence: A Prince of our Disorder, won the Pulitzer
Prize for biography.
      Dr. Mack believed "that Western culture requires a
shift away from a purely materialistic worldview (which he
feels is responsible for the Cold War, the global
ecological crisis, ethnonationalism and regional conflict-
-L.C.) towards a transpersonal worldview which includes
certain elements of Eastern spiritual and philosophical
traditions."
      In 1990, Dr. Mack began a continuing study of 200 men
and women who had reported recurrent alien abduction
experiences.  He studied how their abductions "affected
the way they regarded the world, including a heightened
sense of spirituality and environmental concerns.  Dr.
Mack's interest in the spiritual or transformational
aspects of people's alien encounters, and his suggestion
that the experience of alien contact itself may be more
spiritual than physical in nature, 'yet nontheless real,'
set him apart from many of his contemporaries, such as
Budd Hopkins, who advocated the physical reality of
aliens."
      "In 1994, Dr. Mack published his findings in the book
Abduction.  Also "in 1994, the Dean of Harvard Medical
School appointed a committee of peers to review Dr. Mack's
clinical care and clinical investigation of the people who
had shared their alien encounters with him.  After 14
months of enquiry, and with growing questions from the
academic community (including Harvard law professor Alan
Dershowitz--L.C.) regarding the validity of Harvard's
investigation of a tenured professor, Harvard issued a
statement stating that the Dean had 'reaffirmed Dr. Mack's
academic freedom to study what he wishes and to state his
opinions without impediment,' concluding 'Dr. Mack remains
a member in good standing of the Harvard Faculty of
Medicine.'"
      In 1999, Dr. Mack published his second book on the
alien encounter experience, entitled Passport to the
Cosmos: Human Transformation and Alien Encounters.  This
book was "the culmination of his work with the
'experiencers' of alien encounter (to whom the book is
dedicated--L.C.)" and "a philosophical treatise connecting
the themes of spirituality and modern worldview."


MARS GLOBAL SURVEYOR
SENDS ULTRA-SHARP PHOTOS

      "Mars photos more than twice as sharp as normal,
revealing the tracks of the Mars rover Spirit and the
remains of an ancient flood, were released Tuesday,"
September 28, 2004, "courtesy of NASA's Mars Global
Surveyor spacecraft."
      "By compensating for blurring caused by the
spacecraft's motion as it orbits 235 miles (356
kilometers) over Mars.  Malin Space Science Systems
engineers are now able to take pictures that reveal
features as small as 5 feet (1.5 meters) across, much
better than the old 13-to-16-foot (4-to-5 meter)
resolution."
      "The new images clearly show the tracks left by
NASA's Spirit rover and 'megaripples' in sand left over
from an ancient flood in the Athabasca Vallis region of
Mars."
      "Arriving at the Red Planet in 1997, the Mars Global
Surveyor has nearly completed 25,000 mapping orbits of
Mars and is schedule to continue operating through 2006."
(See USA Today for September 29, 2004, "Mars Surveyor
sends super-sharp photos," page 6D.)



      Well, that's it for this week.  Join us in seven days
for more UFO, paranormal and Fortean news from all over
the planet Earth...and occasionally, Mars...brought to you
by "the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup."  See you next
time!

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2004 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved.  Readers may post news items from UFO
Roundup on their Web sites or in news groups provided that
they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list
the date of issue in which the item first appeared.

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan.nul>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://www.ufoinfo.com/submit/sightings.shtml

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   Oct > Oct 6

                          Secrecy News -- 10/05/04

From: Steven Aftergood<saftergood.nul>
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 12:08:23 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 06:35:17 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 10/05/04


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 87
October 5, 2004


**      SENATE APPROVES INTELLIGENCE BUDGET DISCLOSURE
**      ENERGY DEPT INCREASES INTELLIGENCE BUDGET SECRECY
**      A COUNTERINTELLIGENCE READER


SENATE APPROVES INTELLIGENCE BUDGET DISCLOSURE

In a notable departure from established practice, the U.S.
Senate endorsed disclosure of the national intelligence budget
total and rejected an attempt to preserve absolute budget
secrecy.

As part of the pending intelligence reform bill, the Senate
voted 55-37 to require annual disclosure of the total budget
request, the total amount authorized and the total amount
appropriated for national intelligence (not purely military or
tactical intelligence) beginning in fiscal year 2006, when
intelligence funds will be directly appropriated to the new
National Intelligence Director.

Opponents said the move would mean nothing less than the
destruction of U.S. intelligence.

"I have drawn the conclusion that basically this destroys the
[intelligence] network," said Sen. Conrad Burns (R-Mont).  "And
we wonder why we do not have human resources on the ground in
some areas in the world and, yes, even in our own country. I
will tell you, if this [budget information] is disclosed, this
will be one of the main reasons that we will have."

That is incorrect, supporters said.

"The idea that our enemies can somehow determine something about
our intelligence capability by knowing the total of what we
spend is simply not accurate," said Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D-WV).
"Year-to-year changes in any specific program will not move the
overall total number enough to give an adversary any indication
of how that money is being spent."

Significantly, the budget disclosure proposal was supported by
18 Republicans.  The last time the matter came to a vote in the
Senate (June 19, 1997), it won only one Republican vote, from
former intelligence committee chairman Sen. Arlen Specter.

See the October 4 Senate debate and vote on intelligence budget
disclosure here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2004/s100404.html

While a Senate majority has now endorsed regular annual budget
disclosure, the CIA and the Justice Department Office of
Information and Privacy continue to hold the strange view that
even 50 year old intelligence budget figures must not be
released.


ENERGY DEPT INCREASES INTELLIGENCE BUDGET SECRECY

The 9/11 Commission unanimously recommended that intelligence
budget secrecy should be reduced and that individual
intelligence agency budget totals should be disclosed annually.

But the Department of Energy has decided to do exactly the
opposite of what the Commission recommended.

Up to now, the DOE Office of Intelligence has been one of the 15
members of the U.S. intelligence community whose budget is
unclassified.  (The State Department's Intelligence and Research
Bureau is another.)

No longer.  Instead of serving as an example for other agencies,
DOE has decided to classify its intelligence budget, as if the
9/11 Commission had never existed.  For the first time in
decades, DOE is withholding all substantive information about
its intelligence program.  More than that, DOE is attempting
(improperly) to retroactively classify budget information that
it has previously declassified and published.

Why?  "The word came down from [Deputy Director of Intelligence]
McLaughlin that all budget information was to be treated as
classified," according to one official.

In response to a Freedom of Information Act request, DOE
released a heavily redacted version of its 2005 intelligence
budget request.  That document, as well the last several years
of uncensored DOE intelligence budget requests, may be found
here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doe/budget.html


A COUNTERINTELLIGENCE READER

A four-volume account of the history and evolution of U.S.
counterintelligence that was prepared for the now-defunct
National Counterintelligence Center (NACIC) is now available in
the public domain.

The encyclopedic 1500 page work begins with an account of
counterintelligence (CI) from the American Revolution to World
War II (volume 1), proceeds with a study of CI in World War II
(volume 2), continues with a survey of the post-WWII atom bomb
spies up to the latest espionage cases (volume 3), and concludes
with a look at current counterintelligence challenges from
China, Russia and elsewhere (volume 4).

The study, prepared over several years by multiple authors,
deals in part with well-trodden ground such as the Venona
intercepts. But it also includes extended treatments of much
more obscure topics, such as counterintelligence in the Civil
War, and official accounts of numerous individual espionage
cases that never made headlines, as well as a U.S. government
perspective on "counterintelligence in the turbulent 1960s and
1970s."

For its own peculiar reasons, the Central Intelligence Agency
refused to provide a copy of the document under the Freedom of
Information Act.  But NACIC's successor, the National
Counterintelligence Executive, agreed to release it.

See all four volumes of "A Counterintelligence Reader" edited by
Frank J. Rafalko here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/ops/ci/docs/index.html



_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

Secrecy News has an RSS feed at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood.nul
voice:  (202) 454-4691








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Oct > Oct 6

                   John Mack & Gordon Cooper A Duo Missed

From: Daniel Munoz - Notiovni <notiovni.nul>
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 16:03:30 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 06:41:27 -0400
Subject: John Mack & Gordon Cooper A Duo Missed


I'm very sad to post to say thank you to John Mack and Gordon
Cooper, two great friends of mine, whom I met in several
countries, and that thaught me the value of a good and brave
investigation...

Now, that I'm in Argentina for a TV series, I will remind every
single investigator here of the value of these two courageous men,
who really gave their lives to seeking the truth, being very close
to make it alive... But now they succeeded...

I'm sure they are going to be remembered as two of the greatest
examples of the real research: the one that is made from the
earth...

In memoriam, from a close friend of them both...

Thank you, my friends... Always keep in touch from beyond...

Daniel Munoz
www.notiovni.com
master.nul


Daniel Munoz
http://www.notiovni.com







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   Oct > Oct 6

              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 14:33:58 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 06:48:24 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 12:51:23 -0400
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>I doubt it. Why the groundless enthusiasm? The only good thing
>>about this case was the willingness of the military to share
>>this data.

>Groundless enthusiasm? You reveal how little you know of the
>case and the FLIR document with that remark.

I thank Bruce Maccabee for providing me a copy of the FLIR video
tape data transcription and the cockpit recording translation.
If you are in part responsible for the translation then I would
like to thank you for that work. This data set helped me to
analyze the multiple light section and also come to the same
conclusion he did. That the radar contact did not match the
multiple lights sighting. Since the most hype in the UFO
community and the world press was on the multiple lights
segment, then that allowed me to see that I would not be wasting
my time trying to get radar contact off oil well platforms. Thus
I was able to match the Landsat satellite images with the FLIR
multiple light segment to a high degree of satisfaction. I agree
that a nice test flight would confirm or deny this theory. If
the oil well platforms had been 50 degrees off or something I
would have been satisfied that they were not the cause. But we
have a very good match of a collection of flares, not just one
flare or two. This seems highly suggestive and cannot be
dismissed.

>First, the real object of curiosity on the FLIR recording has
>nothing to do with those lights! It is, in point of fact, the
>_radar_ data that is being reported on the object that was
>approaching the city of Carmen that is most intriguing of all
>and which may 'possibly' be evidence for something _very
>unusual_ to have been flying around in the sky that day. That is
>why I refer to the FLIR lights discussion as an 'Albatross
>around the neck of this investigation.' It has proven to be a
>huge distraction from what may be real 'evidence' of the
>presence of a "UFO" in the sky that day.

I assume that you are only interested in lights if they have
radar contact associated with them. The light you seem to be
interested in is from 16:52:54-16:59:14.

Here is what the translation says during that time.

16:52:52 VOICE A: Come, come.
         VOICE B: Go.
         VOICE A: Right, right.
         VOICE B: Here it goes! Here it goes!!
16:53:00 VOICE B: There it goes... there it goes!
16:53:03 VOICE A: What is it Juarez? Juarez what is it?
         VOICE B: It's a point.
         VOICE C: A point. It's there.
         VOICE D: It's there directly behind us.
16:53:10 VOICE C: Its correct, it's now at our 7 o'clock position at
                  10.5 miles distance.
16:53:16 VOICE C: It's course is, 2- 8- 3 with a speed of 3-3-4.
         VOICE D: More.
16:55:16 VOICE A: At least we have contact with it on the FLIR
                  and we've had Radar contact all the time.
16:55:22 VOICE B: What's its altitude - more or less, boss?
         VOICE A: I think it's at the same altitude as us.
         VOICE B: Aahh.
16:55:35 VOICE C: The FLIR angle is. (recto) pointing straight ahead.
         VOICE C: Exactly.
         VOICE A: It's above us
         VOICE C: That's right.
         VOICE B: Ah, that's why you couldn't see it.
16:55:45 VOICE D: I'm almost losing it on the Radar, it's almost
                  off the screen.
16:56:08 VOICE C: It's exactly one mile from Carmen. From Carmen.
         VOICE B: How many miles?
16:56:19 VOICE C: One or two miles from Carmen.
16:56:26 VOICE D: I don't have it on the screen but the Radar is
                  still marking the distance at 37 miles.
16:56:28 VOICE C: It's now over Carmen.
16:56:59 VOICE B: Well, then it's been lost.
         VOICE D: Here it comes.
16:57:02 VOICE C: It's passing by Carmen.
         VOICE D: It is still going.
16:57:19 VOICE D: What's it doing?
         VOICE C: It's turning.
         VOICE D: Is it turning right?
         VOICE C: Yes.
16:59:36 VOICE A: Just a light. It couldn't be distinguished
         VOICE B: It couldn't be determined if it was a plane or
                  something else.
         VOICE C: It is the same one that we saw awhile ago.
         VOICE D: Yes.

Bruce Maccabee said in his notes that the "recto" comment is
wrong, and it isn't pointing straight ahead but really at -132
or aftward.

I don't see anything impressive here. It seems like they have
found a aircraft on FLIR and radar and for some reason don't
bother to pursue it.

Did you find witnesses in Carmen who saw this object fly over?

>Everybody is so hung up on the lights that little or no
>attention has paid to the fact that the object that was being
>tracked approaching Carmen was flying in a most erratic fashion.
>(Speeding up and slowing down as it flew.)

Because the mutliple lights SOLD the UFO story to the media.
They wouldn't care about one fuzzy light which had verbal radar
data collected on it (and sparse is that data as seen above). If
you have more hidden radar data, I would appreciate it.

>How is it you know nothing of this possible 'genuine unknown'
>that was reported/observed/followed, by the radar operator?

Oh I knew, thanks to Bruce M's generous data.

>If anyone is exhibiting 'groundless enthusiasm' for a theory it is
>you I'm afraid. Your attention is in the wrong place. Why is
>this object, the only one on the whole recording that may
>possibly be a 'genuine UFO', not being discussed at all?

Because it isn't very interesting. We get fuzzy light videos all
the time. Now if you had some radar data recordings that would
be something else.

>Everybody is so focused and exhibiting such 'tunnel-vision' on
>those damned lights, that the genuine mystery/anomaly in the
>FLIR recording, continues to go completely ignored by all the
>"armchair commentators." (Such as yourself.)

Tsk-tsk. No need for your little insults. I have not called you
names. Go and show the data about the radar and lights. My guess
is that the radar error (since it was not recorded and since I
have not seen radar operator error estimates) will make the
light fall into the aircraft category. Go ahead and do the
analysis and show the data (as I have for the mutiple lights
section).

>I was working closely with Bruce for _weeks_ translating the
>data that was being reported by the radar operator.

Thanks!

>Macabee's
>investigation had settled around this object because; a. it's
>movements proved to be most intriguing,

I suppose (yawn).

>and b. we were, (and still are,) waiting for those tests to be
> performed by the
>Mexican military before focusing any more time or attention on
>the lights.

Real research in action.

>If there is any 'evidence' for a "UFO" on that FLIR recording,
>it is the _radar_object_ not the lights! The shame of it all is,
>the only recording we have of the radar target/object over
>Carmen is an _audio_ recording of the data the radar man was
>calling out. They do not make or save recordings of radar, only
>the FLIR. Our mutual loss in terms of having any 'hard' evidence
>in hand.

Yes, it is sad. I agree with you.

>Now, if you want to spend your time in a way that may yield some
>actual results, then focus your attention on the radar object
>over Carmen and leave any discussion about the 'oil well fires'
>until the Mexican military has conducted the test
>flight/recording that Bruce requested. And, calibrated the FLIR
>so that we know if and how much 'slack' and in which direction
>up or down, may exist in the FLIR equipment. If the calibration
>test shows that the lights were in fact 'above' the horizon, I
>will await Mr. Franz's 'flying' oil well theory to follow on its
>heels.

What alot of baloney. Yes, let's sit on our hands until the
military goes into action. Well, I think my Landsat data and
3D modelling do a damn good job explaining the multiple lights.
Others are gathering images/video of the area. This is good
work!

>Right now, those lights mean diddly. The _radar object_ is where
>everyone's attention needs to be focused. Let's all ask the
>Mexican military to perform the tests, then after we have the
>results in hand, we'll talk about em.

Yes, the radar object with light in the first part of the video
is the only UFO of interest although there are alot of FLIR
lights that no one has adequately explained yet and which do not
show up on Landsat images.

>Welcome to the List, James. (I'm not familiar with your name so
>I'm assuming you're new. If you've been around awhile, excuse
>me, I've been away from the List recently.)

Thanks for the welcome. I have been here a while but could
never get posting figured out, duh!







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   Oct > Oct 6

                 Thanks For The Dr John Mack Sympathy Notes

From: Will Bueche - The John Mack Institute <willbueche.nul>
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 15:22:49 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 06:56:02 -0400
Subject: Thanks For The Dr John Mack Sympathy Notes


Ladies and Gentlemen,

Thank you all for your many notes of sympathy, both those
received here on the UpDates List and those sent to the John
Mack Institute.

I've just, this afternoon, delivered to his family (sons and
former wife) a paper printout no less than a inch in height with
these kind comments of respect, sadness, and remembrance.

I don't know if his family cared for Dr Mack's fifteen years of
dedication to seeking the truth of these extraordinary "alien"
experiences, his passion for exploring the ways they touched
people's lives, but I know that your notes won't fail to touch
the hearts of his family.

So, just letting you know they've been delivered.








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              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 18:57:56 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 06:58:39 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 12:51:23 -0400
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 12:02:23 -0700 (PDT)
>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 16:34:40 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>>The tests will serve two purposes; they will allow Bruce to
>>>determine if the 'objects' that were recorded on the FLIR
>>>equipment were flying _above_ the horizon line (and by how much
>>>altitude) and it will also eliminate once and for all the 'oil
>>>well fire' explanation that has been hanging like a stinking
>>>albatross around the neck of this investigation.

>>Do not prejudge the outcome. One possibility is as you state,
>>but you must be willing to accept the other possiblity that it
>>"proves" the "oil well fire" explanation. A serious investigator
>>would not bemoan an explanation as a "stinking albatross". It
>>currently has alot of data to support it which the tests would
>>help confirm or deny.

<snip>

>Right now, those lights mean diddly. The _radar object_ is where
>everyone's attention needs to be focused. Let's all ask the
>Mexican military to perform the tests, then after we have the
>results in hand, we'll talk about em.

>Welcome to the List, James. (I'm not familiar with your name so
>I'm assuming you're new. If you've been around awhile, excuse
>me, I've been away from the List recently.)

>My best to all...


>John Velez

I say, I say, well hush my mouth and call me cornpone! (In my
best impersonation of that animated legend Foghorn Leghorn)

Thanks John V for putting the 'Oil Well Fires' into the proper
perspective.

Reminds me of a saucy joke from a WWII vet about three people in
a life raft. One sees a shark, one sees a mermaid and one sees
the sub that just sank their ship. With danger about they focus
on the mermaid and the joke goes downhill from there.

Point being that now that John V has put order into chaos we
need to stop looking at the mermaid and keep an eye peeled on
that shark.


Best,

Greg








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             Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 18:43:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 07:03:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -


>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 11:16:24 EDT
>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

<snip>

>>Yes, the agenda is that some UFOs are real, i.e. "True UFOs", so
>>it is desirable to assert that at least some of the documents
>>which support this idea are genuine. This is known as "Saucer
>>Logic", the basic idea of which seems to be that you start with
>>what you want to believe then work backwards, rather than
>>starting with the evidence and working towards a rational and
>>coherent explanation. For another example of "Saucer Logic"
>>concerning the MJ-12 papers, see the item, "More on the new MJ-
>>12 documents" at:

>>http://www.martiansgohome.com/smear/v46/ss991010.htm

>For those that went out to this link you will find an issue of
>Saucer Smear dated in 1999. The issue was the reporting of Tim
>Cooper failing a lie detector test, however because Tim is
>protecting the source of the documents, this failure was within
>reason according to the polygraph expert.

>>And for a real feast of "Saucer Logic" absurdity see

>>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/apr/m08-015.shtml

>In this one you will find that Harney was demolished by Dick
>Hall. Dicks bottom line was: "John Harney ought to examine his
>own hidden premises that are leading him quite logically to a
>very dubious conclusion. I think he is being irrational."


Hi Robert,

Thanks for your post. Dick Hall doesn't lose very many arguments
in my judgment. An admired student of logic, and an example of
the best reason I have for engaging in forums like this. He has
seen enough, heard enough, and held enough in his hands to have
a firm belief in what those things are saying. If it is a leap
of faith it is based on harder foundation than most leaps.

Even a hardened skeptic must calmly comprehend that someone who
has experienced the extraordinary through multiple methods, in
multiple forms, from multiple sources, simply cannot ignore the
implication of their totality. Even in the absence of one single
irrefutable case, the skeptic must allow for the circumstantial
to tell a story, whether he believes the story or not. If not,
he is not a skeptic but an advocate. I find Mr. Harney in this
category for the most part. He leaps in a direction near 180
degrees from Dick Hall. But either argument requires a leap.
While I lean in favor of the more speculative direction, I have
not made that leap.

If the polygraph of Tim Cooper was administered to determine
Cooper's level of deception regarding the provenance of the
documents he received, then it was fatally flawed from the
outset. His belated admission that his failure was due to his
protecting his source only confirms this. The results of such a
test are non-conclusive to the merits of the supposed provenance
of the documents. In fact, they allow only one firm conclusion,
again confirmed by Cooper. He is capable of appearing deceptive.
This clouds any further discussion of the provenance of the
documents in question. It provides support for neither the pro-
 nor the con- in this instance. It was a waste of time.

As for John Harney, I do not seek his acquiescence but I don't
dismiss it. For the record I disagree with him more than I
agree. I find Dick Hall and his arguments much more persuasive
in the main. I also tend to play the devil's advocate...as a
means of testing a hypothesis I find compelling, rather than as
a true opponent of the hypothesis. I learned this in Student
Congress, where a guy would bring up a seemingly negative
argument, but one for which he knew the speaker had a great
rebuttal, so that the speaker could address it effectively, thus
making his argument more persuasive, not less. A sneaky, but
time-honored debate tactic... but I am also just mistaken
sometimes. :)

I remain unconvinced of the provenance of the MJ-12 documents,
and no arbitrary ratings method or metering system will change
that.

What would change it would be nice to know, but my intellect
never tells me what it needs...I'm forced to look, watch,
listen, and speak until it feels complete. That moment has not
arrived at this point.

Something new is bound to pop up before long. The government
seems to be able to *find* supposedly non-existent documents
when expedient. Surely something new will wriggle out the other
end.

Regards,

Kyle









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              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 18:59:45 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 07:20:57 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 14:32:39 EDT
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

<snip>

>I don't think the Mexican Government is anywhere near
>incompetent, I just think they're buried in so much corruption
>from within and without that they're up to their ears in bad
>guys. At least the folks there rose up against that 75 year
>regime and have been making strides to the better. That country
>is awash in natural resources and two gorgeous coastlines that
>money couldn't buy. With some TLC they could turn Mexico into a
>paradise in less than 10 years. Just from the sports fishing
>industry alone! ( Yes I've heard from an LA Sherrif pal of mine
>about those giant catfish down there :).

>UFOs are big in Mexico. The people there aren't as afraid to
>speak out like they are in other countries. The fact that the
>Mexican Government was open enough to share this info with the
>people is a sign of some change and courage that other countries
>should take note of.  I live in Los Angeles and the Mexican
>American community is helpful, pleasant, generous, hard working.
>They speak openly of UFOs and other paranormal issues with
>eloquence and rare insight.

>Something is going on in Mexico and we can't chalk it all up to
>goofing up.


Hi Greg,

Indeed. Out of the ashes of long-standing laziness and paranoia
borne of corruption and malaise, we see a glimmer of free press
and open government... from Mexico. We see a government willing
to let its people know that it is not omniscient. A democracy is
being born, and we should applaud the mechanism, however clumsy
it might be on this issue. Their present is lamentably our past.
The democracy... not the clumsiness. :)

Kudos to Mexico for being more 'American' than America.

Regards,

Kyle









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   Oct > Oct 6

                         Indian Scientists Spot UFO

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 07:27:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 07:27:46 -0400
Subject: Indian Scientists Spot UFO




Source: The Times of India

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/874921.cms

10-06-04

Indian Scientist Spots UFO

AHMEDABAD--When a team of geologists went on an expedition to
the Himalayas, they were hardly prepared for an encounter of a
different kind. A scientist of the ISRO's Space Application
Centre here, who was part of the team, now claims that the team
members sighted an unidentified object at 14,500 feet that
"could be a UFO." ISRO is now studying photographs of the
'object' taken by team members.

Anil Kulkarni, a marine and water resources scientist at SAC,
said it could also be an object used for spying.

Members of the team, which also had professors from different
universities and students, were on a mission to study the
Samudra Tapu glacier.

Kulkarni says he is aware of some countries reportedly using
spying devices like satellites, balloons and even flying
objects. "We can confirm whether it is an object from outer
space or a spying device only after the photos are analysed by
experts and the other team members give their versions."

"It was around 6.45 am when one of the team members saw a
balloon-like white object. He warned others mistaking it for a
yeti. When we went closer, it was something different."








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   Oct > Oct 6

                Re: Bigelow's Inflatable Space Modules - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 19:28:49 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 07:29:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Bigelow's Inflatable Space Modules - King


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 11:35:01 -0300
>Subject: Re: Bigelow's Inflatable Space Modules

<snip>

>Hi Kyle,

>I've been away. Bigelow apparently wants to find out one way or
>the other about what's flitting around up there. If you can't
>beat 'em, join'em seems to be his philosophy. Or the heck with
>them, I'll find out for myself.


Hi Don,

Agreed. The desire for knowledge makes for strange bedfellows
when mutual need arises.

Let's hope that his ideas are exploited for the positive and
that the rewards are shared by all.

I wonder if Rutan's White Knight could be part of a system to
get Bigelow's modules into orbit. Launching from above most of
the atmosphere appears to mitigate many of the challenges of
pad-based launches.

Guys like Rutan, Bigelow and others are paving a very clear and
safe road to space that bypasses the bureaucratic sloth and
political expediency which often has plagued our manned
spaceflight program.

Certainly having private *observation posts* up there would lead
to some serious increases in information not controlled by the
gumment. Plus more eyes up there should increase observations of
odd phenomena. More of a containment problem if there is
something to hide.

How long before regulation space and spaceflight, and management
of the disclosure of data gathered thereby?

Worth every effort regardless, in my judgment.


Best Regards,

Kyle







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                         Re: Gordon Cooper - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 19:47:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 07:31:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Fleming


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 09:25:55 -0400
>Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 15:19:10 -0400
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Kaeser

>>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
>>To: UFOUpdates <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 07:41:43 -0500
>>Subject: Gordon Cooper

>>I've read several of the media accounts of Gordon Cooper's
>>death. Not one of them mentions a word about his outspoken views
>>on UFOs or his address to the UN on the subject.

>>Once again, the news media is heavily editing reality for mass
>>consumption.

>For those in this genre, this may be an issue, but Gordon Cooper
>will be remembered by most for other reasons that are irrelevent
>to his views on UFOs.

Because that's the way the news media have decided he ought to
be remembered, even though it's far from being the whole truth.

>If you found this to be missing from a biography that would be
>an issue, but I think it's unfair to complain that the media
>fails to mention it in (what are in effect) obituary pieces that
>highlight the factors in his life that most people remember.

Obituaries say stuff like "loving father, devoted husband," etc.
etc. These are supposed to be _news_ reports describing the
man's life, not obituaries.

Cooper's interest in UFOs and his personal experiences
concerning them were an important part of his public life. I
doubt very much that Cooper would have approved of this editing.
Otherwise, he wouldn't have risked his reputation by speaking
out on the subject of UFOs.

As for being unfair to the news media, which Jimmy Breslin
correctly characterizes as the "Pekinese of the press," that's
hard to do.








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                         Re: Gordon Cooper - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 19:56:39 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 07:32:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Fleming


>From: Simon Hicks <slh.nul>
>Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 23:53:00 +0800
>Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 16:20:09 -0400
>Subject: CNN On Gordon Cooper - Hicks

>Actually, the CNN report at:

>http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/10/04/gordon.cooper/index.html

>included as one of the bylines the fact that he believed in a
>UFO cover up and then goes on to expand on that further into the
>story.


This article does present a good forthright description of
Cooper's interest in UFOs. I'm glad to see it. I'll bet Billy
Cox of Florida Today would do the same if he were tasked to
write about Cooper.But it's too bad that this kind of
reporting is the exception rather than the rule.








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                   Local Resident Impresses Top UFO Expert

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO Research <hbccufo.nul>
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 18:19:09 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 07:35:53 -0400
Subject: Local Resident Impresses Top UFO Expert


Source: The Peace River Gazette - British Columbia

http://www.prrecordgazette.com/story.php?id=3D120487

10-05-04

Local Resident Impresses Top UFO Expert

Peace River Record Gazette =97 Canadian UFO (unidentified flying
objects) researcher Brian Vike called the Record-Gazette
following the publication in our issue of September 7, 2004
("Weird photo", page 1), of a picture taken by local resident
Bill Devitt (wrongly spelt as David in that issue). Vike made
some comments on the photo.

Vike heads an organization he has founded, the HBCC UFO
Research, to compile records of UFO sightings. He said Alberta
has the highest number of sightings than any other place and
last year in Airdrie, there were several sightings that made
news in the local newspaper, the Airdrie Echo, were reported to
his organization.

Devitt=92s photo made a big impression on him, he said. He also
contacted Devitt to discuss the circumstances in which the photo
was taken.

Vike, who is sought for interviews by media organizations across
North America and in other countries on the topic of UFOs, made
comments on the Airdrie sightings to editor Paul Wells of the
Airdrie Echo.

He believes the Peace River photo could yet be another case of
UFO sighting, though Devitt himself saw nothing actually until
the photo was commercially developed in town and printed.







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                 Interesting Nuclear Propulsion Systems Site

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 23:03:53 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 07:38:30 -0400
Subject: Interesting Nuclear Propulsion Systems Site


An engineer pal of mine sent me this link:

http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/O/OrionProj.html

It's a look at advanced propulsion systems.

I recall Mr. Friedman mentioning he had worked on advanced
propulsion systems way back in the 60's.

What's become of this type of research? Does Mr. Friedman or any
of the other scientists or researchers have papers or books on
the subject?

Thanks.


Best,

Greg








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             Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul>
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 01:34:57 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 07:40:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 12:58:59 -0500
>Subject:  Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 18:08:37 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

><snip>

>>Right on Robert. Kyle, I gather that you don't have any idea how
>>the system works

><snip>

>My entry into this discussion was to assert a simple
>observation. A sheet of creased paper, when placed into a file
>box... horizontally or vertically, between other sheets of paper
>or file folders... will tend to lose its creases over time. This
>was my point in refutation of a statement to the contrary made
>by Dr. Maccabee. My point has been refuted in a number of ways,
>but not to my satisfaction. Creased paper in the midst of non-
>creased paper tends to become non-creased paper over time. I
>didn't think I was indicting the entire "MJ-12 is real"
>community. Quite the contrary. If you look just a few yards down
>the logical path thus far, it is easy to see that my point
>actually leans in favor of authenticity. Be that as it may,
>however...

Hi Kyle, listers,

One wonders what the document looks like today in terms of the
creases... are they worn out, so to speak, or not? Not really
revelant to anything, nor will it prove or disprove anything,
just a curious thought.


Cheers,

Robert








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   Oct > Oct 6

                  1952 - Scoutmaster Claims UFO Zapped Him

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 07:44:50 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 07:44:50 -0400
Subject: 1952 - Scoutmaster Claims UFO Zapped Him




Source: The Palm Beach Post - Florida

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/wellington/content/neighborhood/wellington/epaper/2
004/10/06/npw14_posttime_1006.html

10-06-04


Scoutmaster Claims UFO Zapped Him With Fireball

By Eliot Kleinberg

Palm Beach Post Staff Writer

October 06, 2004

Readers: In honor of Halloween, Post Time's four October
segments will feature legends and tales of the unexplained in
the history of Palm Beach County. This week: UFOs.

As with most of the country, South Florida has had many reports
of sightings of unidentified flying objects. The most celebrated
might well be the case of D.S. "Sonny" DesVergers.

In August 1952, the 30-year-old hardware store clerk and Boy
Scout scoutmaster emerged burned and dazed from a wooded area
off Military Trail near Lantana Road. He claimed he had
encountered an alien spacecraft that zapped him with a fireball
which came out of a domed hatch.

 Post columnist Ron Wiggins revived the story in 1997, tracking
down two men who'd been in Sonny's troop.

The men said DesVergers was driving them home from a meeting
when he saw some strange lights. He made a U-turn, grabbed a
flashlight and machete from the trunk, and set off on foot,
telling the boys to call the sheriff's office if he wasn't back
in 10 minutes. They said they then saw circulating lights in the
trees and ran to a nearby home.

A half-hour later, a deputy found DesVergers. The scoutmaster
said he had looked up and had seen a silver disc that was 3 feet
thick and 30 feet across.

"I heard hinges open and then they shot at me," DesVergers said
in the 1952 article.

Air Force investigators later said the clerk had a reputation
for tall tales, but they couldn't account for scorching at the
site.

Next week: Another witness.







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   Oct > Oct 6

                 Skeleton In Brazilian Museum Might Be Alien

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 08:19:28 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 07:52:02 -0400
Subject: Skeleton In Brazilian Museum Might Be Alien


Brazilian UFO Magazine reports:

Skeleton in Brazilian museum might be of an alien being

The 350,000 inhabitants of the Brazilian city of Uberaba, State
of Minas Gerais, are very uneasy with a supposed alien skeleton
displayed in a local museum. The exhibition is at the Museum of
Natural History Wilson Estevanovic, a private institution which
also hosts the Astronomic Society of Uberaba and shows animals,
mummies, and several kinds of stones. Both institutions have the
common objective of taking culture and science to the city s
schools. The museum belongs to the Estevanovic family, whose
ancestors crossed the world with a circus in the end of the XIX
century. In every place the family has been, they have acquired
pieces, such as mummies, animal skeletons, fossils etc.

The Estevanovics went to Uberaba in 1956, and in 1997 they
founded the museum which today counts on more than 20,000
pieces. In the end of August, two directors of the institution
the attorney Wellington Estevanovic and the professor Carlos
Magno Estevanovic came to me and to the researcher Jos=E9 Eduardo
C. Maia reporting a very unusual piece in their collection
asking us to take a look. It was a strange embalmed skeleton
which has been with the family for 96 years. The directors
informed that the carcass called the attention of the local
community and that was the reason why they decided to show the
piece to the Brazilian UFO Magazine [www.ufo.com.br] thinking it
might be of an extraterrestrial being. We went to the place and
thoroughly examined the skeleton together with Wilson
Estevanovic Neto, another member of the Estevanovic family.
Estevanovic Neto is a researcher of the subject, restorer,
gemologist, and also an expert in the processes of
mummification.

Some doctors contacted by us have talked little about the
subject saying only that the bones do not seem to belong to a
human being due to anomalies like a huge head and a small body.
What was also surprising to the president of the Museum of
Natural History is the diameter of the head, which is of 97 cm.
In addition, the semi-mummified carcass seems to have belonged
to a hermaphrodite with six-fingered feet. We estimate that it
might be of a 10 to 12-year old pre-adolescent, as we could
verify through orthodontic studies. When alive, this being had
multiple anomalies. The most evident ones are the presence of
hydrocephaly and palate-labial fissure, that is, a primary
congenital malformation , he said to the Brazilian UFO Magazine.

Extraterrestrial creature?

According to him, students and other people who have already
seen the skeleton at the museum have no doubt it is of an
extraterrestrial creature. Some people felt sick at seeing the
carcass exposed while others got scared, but most of the
children felt excited. Despite the intense curiosity there is no
further information about the piece. The Estevanovic family does
not know where the piece comes from or how it was embalmed, but
they believe it occurred more than 200 years ago. The box in
which the skeleton was kept was opened in 1997 after the death
of Wilson Estevanovic, who revealed to his son, Wellington, the
secret it contained. Before that, it was only a sealed box ,
said the director of the institution.

The ufologist Maia estimates that the material is very valuable
and deserves profound studies. I haven t seen anything like this
before, except in movies or pictures. Now we have a skeleton
very different from a human one which we are going to study
carefully , he commented. According to information from other
researchers, Brazil has not the necessary conditions to perform
examinations in the carcass to verify if it is human or not,
since it is already mummified. Brazilian UFO Magazine
[www.ufo.com.br] has put up a team to further examine the
skeleton in detail, in order to determine its real nature. If
this is an alien structure, what could be concluded with serious
scientific research, then the world must know , said the
magazine s editor A. J. Gevaerd, founder on the Brazilian Center
for Flying Saucer Research (CBPDV).

The Estevanovic family has been very helpful opening all doors
of the museum to researchers, once they also want to see the
mystery solved. The biological sciences student of the
University of Bahia, Veruska Estevanovic, granddaughter of the
institution s founder concluded after studies on the origin of
the piece that the skeleton probably belongs to an
extraterrestrial being. Among other examinations, the carcass
underwent a morphoanatomic evaluation. In her report, Veruska
talks about the development of the skeleton in a more detailed
description: it has a palate-labial fissured skull with a
reduced palate and a slender and protuberant central structure
projected through the nasal cavity and two canine teeth on its
distal ends.

Eye orbits

The morphoanatomic analysis of the skeleton has indicated that
the distance between this structure and the upper maxilla is of
5 cm. The nasal cavity presents a crack at its base which is
interrupted by the projection of the palate-buccal structure ,
said Veruska to the Brazilian UFO Magazine [www.ufo.com.br]. The
upper maxilla is incomplete, with a central fissure directly
linked to the nasal cavity with only nine teeth. The lower
maxilla is smaller than normal anatomic patterns too long and
narrow on its horizontal axis holding only nine teeth. The eye
orbits are shallow, relatively far from one another, presenting
an ossified central structure, which is circular with a central
orifice and one ossified optical nerve.

Such body structure does not match the human anatomy. The
skeleton does not have the auditory pit, as well as the auditory
canal. The cranium presents typical cranial cracks and the front
region has two relevant protuberances. The carcass is divided in
head, trunk, and limbs without any known proportion. The cranium
s dimensions are 1 =BD time the chest. Veruska continues: The
creature presented a bone characteristic which allows us to
define at least two severe congenital abnormalities:
hydrocephaly and palate-labial fissure, that is, two syndromes
very known in the medical literature.

The skeleton certainly belonged to an individual with congenital
malformation or anomalies, which consist of developmental
failures in the occasion of the birth. In the universe of
congenital malformation, no classification of an isolate
nomenclature is universally accepted, that is, all of them are
limited. Each one is directed to a specific purpose in the study
of teratology branch of science that studies abnormal pre-birth
developments with principal emphasis with respect to already
known pathogenesis.

If human, the causes of congenital malformation in the skeleton
might be chromosome abnormalities, mutant genes, environmental
factors, multifactorial inheritance, or even a combination of
genetic and environmental factors combined with other unknown
causes , has declared Veruska Estevanovic to the Brazilian UFO
Magazine.



Photos at www.ufo.com.br/index.php?arquivo=3DnotComp.php&id=3D580



Report by Paulo de Carvalho Nogueira
Exclusive for the Brazilian UFO Magazine [www.ufo.com.br]
Translated by Eduardo Rado










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   Oct > Oct 6

              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 06:26:14 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 21:31:46 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: Santiago Yturria <syturria.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 14:07:35 -0500
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 12:02:23 -0700 (PDT)
>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>>Do not prejudge the outcome. One possibility is as you state,
>>but you must be willing to accept the other possiblity that it
>>"proves" the "oil well fire" explanation. A serious investigator
>>would not bemoan an explanation as a "stinking albatross". It
>>currently has alot of data to support it which the tests would
>>help confirm or deny.

>The oil flames speculation is based on the alleged FLIR
>disadjustments and a wrong calibration as well as the Radar
>malfunctioning implying the FLIR camera was pointing to the
>ground level all the time without moving up and down by the
>operator during the incident even that the elevation levels were
>reading in the FLIR screen counters.

No allegations needed., just the data. I can take the FLIR data
and match targets in Landsat images and calculate the azimuth
error. The Moon and Sun can provide azimuth and elevation eror.
They all match and there IS error, this is a fact, not subject
to debate. Regarding radar, I only have the transcript and no
radar contacts occurred during the multiple UFO segment. If you
have more radar data, then I am willing to modify my position
after examining it.

>This invention was made to support the speculation because the
>actual Merlin C26A March 5, 2004 flying path was provided by the
>Air Force for the civilian research purposes. This flying path
>proves how long that Cantarell site was from the airplane, how
>far the C26A flied from Ciudad del Carmen after it's turn in
>direction northwest to Quintana Roo at 16:52:53. Have you seen
>the maps and graphics Mr. Smith? I'm sure you have not seen
>anything.

Funny guy. Sorry, I have examined this a hell of a lot. Thanks
to the FLIR to provide the latitude and longitude. Also, this
enables a good approximation of the aircraft direction of
motion.

>As this C26A flying path maps prove the REAL observation angles
>during the incident and how far it was from that oil flames site
>the debunker invented the FLIR disfunctioning and discalibration
>story to justify the speculation. As the C26A radar detected
>also a target to the front of the plane that is in direction
>northwest and another target to the right that is in direction
>to the west the debunker had to invent that radar was also
>malfunctioning due to disadjustemts and erroneus readings
>implying that radar was not accurate.

I don't understand how you can be so wrong. It is sad really.

Perhaps you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the FLIR
data readout. Yes, before the turn, the radar detected something
and a light showed on the FLIR. An airplane? I don't know.
Certainly not the spectacular multiple UFO sequence.

Now can you clarify the radar statement you made because its not
clear what time you are talking about thus I cannot discuss it
adequately.

>These false allegations have not any solid base since this
>person have never been aboard the C26A, have never made a
>technical check of the equipment, have never gained access to
>the FLIR and radar to make his own technical evaluation and
>judgement in order to conclude both systems are not accurate.

It would have been nice if the military's investigation had
checked the calibration. Even at this late date, a general check
could be performed to statistically understand the error level.

I have and others have gotten emails from the FLIR manufacturer
clarifying its operation which discuss how INFLIGHT calibration
is needed. Whether the flight crew has done this is not clear,
but the FLIR video proves the FLIR azimuth and elevation are NOT
exact, but a number of degrees off (<10).

The radar is a big unknown to me. All I do know is that I have
not seen ANY data stored on that unit presented for our
examination.

>You know very well Mr. Smith that this meassurements are
>strictly required in order to sustain any of those allegations,
>alleged evidences that would have been dismissed inmediately in
>any court of law. Therefore those statements without solid basis
>are just inadmisible evidences derived by mere hypotesis, in one
>word : inventions.

Are you a lawyer? If the FLIR data readout can be calibrated
using known landmarks, etc, then in a court of law, that proves
the FLIR data readout inaccuracy.

>>I have observed enough close-mindedness on both sides of
>>the UFO issue to know that regardless of
>>"proof", people will keep their own ideas/opinions. How
>>different this is from real science!

>I'm sorry but real science is not the humankind panacea, not
>anymore. We are living a new age in our evolution and as far as
>I know real science in the exact sense of the term is not a
>global definition. There are many interpretations and
>manifestations that the word science define. Which one are you
>referring to.

Maybe, but the scientific method still holds.

>Besides to my knowledge the fundamental principle of science is
>the continued proccess in experimentation, the research into new
>ways of knowledge, a research without barriers that allow us to
>discover unknown things that contribute to our evolution. Real
>science must be open to change it's protocols all the time due
>to new discoveries and advances and must have an open posture to
>these changes to be made. That's the way I interpret real
>science.

Agreed. Right on! Break down the paradigms! Yes!

>>I doubt it. Why the groundless enthusiasm? The only good thing
>>about this case was the willingness of the military to share
>>this data. However, I think they have learned their lesson. What
>>they should have done was intensively investigate it internally
>>prior to a public release.

>You are wrong Mr. Smith. The Air Force did their own
>investigation of the March 5,2004 incidents. Fow two months they
>studied and analyzed the FLIR footage, the C26A official inform,
>the crew interrogation sessions, the Campeche wheater conditions
>report, the C26A equipment evaluation, the posible causes and
>effects according to the military strategic scheme, all these
>procedures in colaboration with their internal advisors. The
>results concluded an event unknown in origin and nature, the
>case was declared unexplained.

>That was when Secretary of Defense took the decision to invite
>the civilian research to colaborate in the investigation in the
>legitimate interest to try to understand and define the nature
>of this incident and the posible causes and effects to the
>aerial security. This invitation was made at the end of April
>2004 and the civilian research started.

Okay so they did some work. I did gather there was some "work".
I am glad it was so intensive that they mentioned and ruled out
the oil well flares. Well, I can't blame them, they can't think
of _everything_.

I just haven't seen their report. Pretty detailed?

Still, I haven't seen a good reason to release it to the public.
Do they want to get recruits, distract the public from the
wretched economy or politicians?

>Did you know this Mr. Smith? It's clear to me that you don't
>know the facts and history of this case.

I may not know all the details that you seem to know. I have
tried to read the amazing amounts of articles on the subject. I
have not read the final report of the Mexican Air Force which
documents all that they did to explain the case.

I am skeptical of a military that cannot fly over the same route
and capture the oil flare images on FLIR. This should have been
done during their initial investigation. As I said, if I had
been them, I would have done the best I could and when that
failed, bring in experts without going public.

I do not see a good reason to go public. Can you provide one?

>>What was their motivation in a public
>>release? Were they afraid and hoped to warn the public? Maybe
>>Franz is right in his assertions of Mexican military
>>incompetence. I have not wanted to consider this, because I
>>support the U.S. military. But I have been reading about the
>Mexican government recently and it does seem very corrupt, maybe
>>that is somehow affecting their military.

>Well excuse me Mr. Smith. Where do you live, in Mexico? What
>solid evidences do you have to make such serious statements
>about our armed forces? Who are you to judge the reputation of
>our military personal. As far as I know you are not a military
>expert, a military advisor or a foreign affaires consultant. You
>are not a CIA or NSA member or even a US goverment official
>neither you have the credentials that authorize you to make such
>statements regarding our military institutions.

No I live in the US. Do I need solid evidence about anything I
say? What is solid evidence? Can I quote books and magazine and
newspaper articles or do I have to be stationed everywhere to
offer a first hand view? I am no accredited person, as you say,
but I can read like anyone. I didn't want to criticize Mexico
and I am sure it MAY be doing the best it can, but it seems like
there is a horrible amount of corruption in the judiciary, law
enforcement and military which is the result of drug
lords/trafficing. Mexico has a hideous poverty rate and massive
exodus of people to the US to survive. Of course, most of the
people are NOT corrupt. But as is always the case, the few bad
apples screw up everything for everyone else. It drug lords want
to mess up on interdiction flights, then it doesn't take 100%
participation of the military to do this. All that needs to be
done is poor training or equipment.

>What I think is that you just read the newspapers and the
>Internet sitting in your desk and watching the world's political
>conflicts in wich case I will ask you this: Do you know the
>actual level of reputation and credibility of your own US army
>after the Iraq human rights and abuses were exposed by the media
>? You talked about corruption and other serious implications,
>are'nt these the acts recently exposed on tv and newspapers in
>the US defining the US troups in Iraq? What do you have to say
>to this? You must first review your domestic affaires in your
>own country Mr. Smith before attemting to judge other countries
>deficiencies.

You are right about us all living in glass houses. I am critical
of the US government/military sometimes too. But how is that
related to the Campeche case? Sure I can go into a tirade about
our deficiencies, but, fun though that may be, doesn't
accomplish anything.

>>The oil well flare theory seems to be pretty good so far for the
>>Campeche case.

>Your posture is very easy to explain, at least for me. You are a
>world's famous skeptic Mr. Smith and that's a fact. You have
>been doing an extensive work following your principles and
>beliefs and to me you are sincerely devoted to your vocation.

You flatter me , sir.  I don't think I am world famous. Also,
what I do is a hobby (especially as no money is in it, indeed it
is a money syphon) not a vocation. I am glad to have been able
to contribute a little to this case, but its somewhat like
solving a puzzle and that is part of the incentive for me. The
other part is the inherent desire we all should have to see that
truth is promulgated. All the hype about the multiple UFOs led
me to seriously examine the data, with the unfortunate results I
have found.

>As a skeptic it's clear to me that you don't belive in the UFO
>phenomena neither in the paranormal phemomena and will continue
>with your work defining yourself as a scientist and objective
>researcher. That's fine with me and I respect your posture.

Don't read too much into being a skeptic. Regarding paranormal
phenomena of all types, I have an open mind. I do what
experiments I can to reproduce the phenomena. If I can't, then
thats just my one data point. I cannot discount the probability
of ghosts, ESP, God, or UFOs. In fact, I do "believe" in all of
these phenomena with some faith. But when analyzing hard data
like the Campeche case, you don't NEED faith. You just look at
the facts, correlate as best you can, and use rational thought.
If then the phenomena cannot be explained, it remains (in this
case) a UFO. It can't even be placed in the "alien" category
(unless you can follow it back to its home or get samples of the
device showing off-world manufacture or even radar images of the
superstructure or something of that order.

Also, I am not really a scientist, but an engineer, but I
respect the scientific method.

>But the true facts of the SEDENA case must be presented at all
>time as well as the real official informations to prevent the
>case elements to be distorted, missinterpreted or ignored.
>That's what I ask and the motive of my clearification
>statements. This was necesarely required. On the other hand it's
>clear that our mutual postures will remain irreconciliable.

For one thing, there are only true facts. False facts are not
facts. I agree that each of us will believe what we want to
believe. I cannot "convert" you with my facts. But since Errol
was nice enough to provide a public record of our conjectures
and analyses then I felt incumbent to not let the matter rest on
your statements, which still seem obscure to me.

One thing still bothers me. Why do you think it is good that the
Mexican Air Force released this data (without a definite
conclusion)?








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Oct > Oct 6

              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 10:21:28 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 21:33:36 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 18:59:45 -0500
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 14:32:39 EDT
>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

><snip>

>>I don't think the Mexican Government is anywhere near
>>incompetent, I just think they're buried in so much corruption
>>from within and without that they're up to their ears in bad
>>guys. At least the folks there rose up against that 75 year
>>regime and have been making strides to the better. That country
>>is awash in natural resources and two gorgeous coastlines that
>>money couldn't buy. With some TLC they could turn Mexico into a
>>paradise in less than 10 years. Just from the sports fishing
>>industry alone! ( Yes I've heard from an LA Sherrif pal of mine
>>about those giant catfish down there :).

>>UFOs are big in Mexico. The people there aren't as afraid to
>>speak out like they are in other countries. The fact that the
>>Mexican Government was open enough to share this info with the
>>people is a sign of some change and courage that other countries
>>should take note of.  I live in Los Angeles and the Mexican
>>American community is helpful, pleasant, generous, hard working.
>>They speak openly of UFOs and other paranormal issues with
>>eloquence and rare insight.

>>Something is going on in Mexico and we can't chalk it all up to
>>goofing up.


>Hi Greg,

>Indeed. Out of the ashes of long-standing laziness and paranoia
>borne of corruption and malaise, we see a glimmer of free press
>and open government... from Mexico. We see a government willing
>to let its people know that it is not omniscient. A democracy is
>being born, and we should applaud the mechanism, however clumsy
>it might be on this issue. Their present is lamentably our past.
>The democracy... not the clumsiness. :)

>Kudos to Mexico for being more 'American' than America.


Thanks Kyle and kudos to you for pointing something out I'd
almost forgotten.

Years ago when President Fox was elected, several relatives of
mine of Mexican heritage jumped for joy. President Fox vowed to
end the corruption and appointed an attorney general who was a
military man yet an attorney who was feared for his keen mind
and fearless character.

Several lawyers I know including classmates and kin had heard of
them too and said that the corruption in Mexico and from the
U.S. were in for a good fight.

Maybe this UFO dislcosure by their government is their way of
continuing this effort. Maybe the best weapon against tyranny
and evil is honesty and courage. It would be funny to see Mexico
noted in history for honor and valor putting the rest of us to
shame. It's like I've said before on this list that every
country on Earth can't have some sort of secret black ops that
hushes up and hides all the UFO evidence. The country that sees
the value of openly discussing and disclosing the info might
turn the tables of commerce and power in a way we haven't seen
before. It's more than obvious the U.S. is frightened of
confronting this issue and at first called abductees and
witnesses and researchers 'crazy' and in retribution would
imprison them. Yet Dr. Mack proved they weren't insane and that
means a mandated look back at the treatment of these people.
Talk about a malpractice suit of cosmic proportions on the way!

So if we aren't 'nuts', we're due an apology and I mean a HUGE
apology from every news service and government service and I
don't mean when they get around to it, I demand it NOW.

So let's not forget that at least the Mexican Government kept
their word on that end.


Best,

Greg








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   Oct > Oct 6

              Re: Skeleton In Brazilian Museum Might Be Alien -

From: Bob Shell <bob.nul>
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 10:39:26 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 21:34:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Skeleton In Brazilian Museum Might Be Alien -


>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 08:19:28 -0300
>Subject: Skeleton In Brazilian Museum Might Be Alien

On Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 07:52  AM, A. J. Gevaerd wrote:

>Photos at www.ufo.com.br/index.php?arquivo=notComp.php&id=580

Hello A.J.,

It just looks like the skeleton of a deformed child to me.


Bob Shell







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               Re: Bigelow's Inflatable Space Modules - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 12:59:03 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 21:47:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Bigelow's Inflatable Space Modules - Ledger


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 19:28:49 -0500
>Subject: Re: Bigelow's Inflatable Space Modules

>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 11:35:01 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Bigelow's Inflatable Space Modules

>>I've been away. Bigelow apparently wants to find out one way
>>or the other about what's flitting around up there. If you can't
>>beat 'em, join'em seems to be his philosophy. Or the heck with
>>them, I'll find out for myself.

>Agreed. The desire for knowledge makes for strange bedfellows
>when mutual need arises.

>Let's hope that his ideas are exploited for the positive and
>that the rewards are shared by all.

If the past is any indication where Rutan's genius is concerned,
other's will take his innovations and run with them. Rutan
almost single handedly fostered the composite idea for aircraft
construction with his early homebuilt design the Vari-eze made
of foam and fiberglas. He expanded upon that but others really
pushed this medium to the point where many new commercial
designs and homebuilts and  military designs use partial or
total composite construction.

Some of the newer biz-jets are composites. The envelope has been
pushed to the point where several [relatively] low horsepowered
homebuits are pushing the P-51 and Sea Fury speed range. Right
now there are several hundred kitbuilt aircraft that are made
entirely of foam and fiberglas, and are extremely strong.

>I wonder if Rutan's White Knight could be part of a system to
>get Bigelow's modules into orbit. Launching from above most of
>the atmosphere appears to mitigate many of the challenges of
>pad-based launches.

I foresee others getting on the band wagon,  maybe even Gates,
now that venture capital stage has been gotten out of the way.

>Guys like Rutan, Bigelow and others are paving a very clear and
>safe road to space that bypasses the bureaucratic sloth and
>political expediency which often has plagued our manned
>spaceflight program.

Yeah it's no wonder that it's a $1,000.00 a pound to get
something into space via  NASA and the ESA etc..

>Certainly having private *observation posts* up there would
>lead to some serious increases in information not controlled by
>the gumment. Plus more eyes up there should increase
>observations of odd phenomena. More of a containment problem if
>there is something to hide.

>How long before regulation space and spaceflight, and
>management of the disclosure of data gathered thereby?

Oh no doubt the gov will horn in. They use safety as a wedge to
get their own way and expand from there.

>Worth every effort regardless, in my judgment.

Lord knows somebody has to do it. The "manned" exploration of
space has stagnated in the last 25 years or so.


Best,

Don Ledger









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              Re: keleton In Brazilian Museum Might Be Alien -

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 13:30:12 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 21:50:37 -0400
Subject: Re: keleton In Brazilian Museum Might Be Alien -


>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 08:19:28 -0300
>Subject: Skeleton In Brazilian Museum Might Be Alien

>Brazilian UFO Magazine reports:

>Skeleton in Brazilian museum might be of an alien being

>Photos at www.ufo.com.br/index.php?arquivo=notComp.php&id=580

>Report by Paulo de Carvalho Nogueira
>Exclusive for the Brazilian UFO Magazine [www.ufo.com.br]
>Translated by Eduardo Rado

What photos? Where? Maybe I missed something but when I went to
the English translation of the site all I got was a petition.

Could you post the exact page where these photos are so we don't
have to search around?

Also, if they have a skeleton only 200 years old, there should
be enough residual DNA material especially in the dental
cavaties to extract and examine. Don't know if that had been
done yet on this specimen.


Best,

Greg








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              Re: Interesting Nuclear Propulsion Systems Site -

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 17:51:48 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 21:54:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Interesting Nuclear Propulsion Systems Site -


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 23:03:53 EDT
>Subject: Interesting Nuclear Propulsion Systems Site


>An engineer pal of mine sent me this link:

>http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/O/OrionProj.html

>It's a look at advanced propulsion systems.

>I recall Mr. Friedman mentioning he had worked on advanced
>propulsion systems way back in the 60's.

>What's become of this type of research? Does Mr. Friedman or any
>of the other scientists or researchers have papers or books on
>the subject?

>Thanks.


In my paper "Star Travel? YES" ($4 from UFORI, POB 958,
Houlton, ME 04730-0958) I review a number of nuclear propulsion
programs. I worked at GE Aircraft Nuclea Propulsion Department
in Evendale, OHIO, 1956-1959. In 1958 we were spending $100,000,
that year and employed 3500 people of whom 1100 were engineers
and scientists. Jet engines were indeed operated on nuclear
power. At Aerojet General Nucleonics, in San Ramon, California
where I worked from 1959 to 1963, we did a large study on
Nuclear Fusion propulsion spending a few million government
dollars. We used the Deuterium-Helium 3 reaction which produces
about 98.5% of its energy in the form of energetic charged
particles as opposed to most of the energy in the DD reaction
going into neutrons. The charged particles can be exhausted by
interaction with electric and magnetic field.The amount of
energy carried by each particle is about 10 Million times as
much as a particle exhausted by a chemical rocket. There is an
excellent paper"Controlled Fusion Propulsion" Proceedings of the
33rd Symposium on Advanced Propulsion Concepts, Vol. 1, Gordon
and Breach, New York 1963 pp343-380.

Between 1966-1969 I worked for Westinghouse Astronuclear Lab. in
Large, PA. we ground tested fission nuclear rocket engines as
did Aerojet General, and Los Alamos. A host of systems were
tested..at the Nevada Test Site. The biggest had a power level
of 4400 Megawatts and was less than 7' in diameter. These would
all be used as upper stages, not for launch from the ground.

There was also a nuclear ramjet ground tested in the early 1960s
by LingTemco Vought and Livermore.

The Orion Pproject  was really small potatoes compared to these.

Almost all of the technical reports were classified.


Stan Friedman








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                    Lloyd Pye Lecture Brisbane Queensland

From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul>
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 08:22:45 +1000
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 22:04:25 -0400
Subject: Lloyd Pye Lecture Brisbane Queensland


Hi All,

Brisbane Queensland Lecture

Speakers: Lloyd Pye, USA

Date: 7th Oct, tonight

Hosted by AUFORN Queensland

For more information:

http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn/LLOYDPYE.html

Sponsored by NEXUS & THE AUSTRALASIAN UFOLOGIST
HARD EVIDENCE MAGAZINE

Venue Springwood Community Center
Springwood, Crn Vanessa Blv Cinderella Drive

Start: 7.30pm Doors open 7.00pm

Cost of Lecture $20

Don't forget  to pass this information on to your friends.


Regards Diane Harrison

Co-Editor
The Australasian UFOlogist Magazine
auforn.nul

Editor
The Hard Evidence Magazine.
auforn.nul

Australian Magazines dealing with Australian and World Wide
issues

Government issues, Health,New Technology,Space, Free Energy
UFOs, Paranormal, Hard Evidence Conspiracies

http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn

Earthlink Publishing (Aust) Pty Ltd
PO Box 738
Beaudesert 4285
QLD  Australia
Tel/Fax 07 55487205








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                          Filer's Files #42 - 2004

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul>
Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 16:11:10 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 23:09:46 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #42 - 2004


Filer's Files #42 - 2004, Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern
Vice President of Skywatch International
October 6, 2004, Webmaster: Chuck Warren

Hundreds of Sightings

The purpose of these files is to report the UFO eyewitness and
photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the
world and in space as reported each week. Many people claim it
is impossible for aliens to visit Earth, I ask you only to keep
an open mind and watch the evidence we accumulate each week.
These Files make the assumption that extraterrestrial
intelligent life exists and my hypothesis is that of the over
one hundred UFO reports each week many represent factual UFO
sightings in our skies. This week we show evidence of structures
on Mars,

UFOs were seen over Maine, Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey
Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Kentucky, Ohio, Michigan,
Wisconsin, Minnesota, Missouri, Arkansas, Texas, Colorado, New
Mexico, Arizona, California, Washington, Canada, Brazil,
Argentina, UK, Netherlands, France, Israel, and New Zealand

President Ronald Reagan. "Our differences worldwide would
vanish if we were facing an alien threat outside this world."

Secret Alien Bases on Mars and the Moon

Hundreds of planets have been discovered outside our Solar
System suggesting there are billions of planets. We can assume
that some of these planets contain galactic civilizations that
launch space ships capable of visiting Earth. My contacts at
NORAD indicate that Uncorrelated Targets are regularly tracked
entering and leaving our atmosphere. Uncorrelated targets are
those not recorded and tracked in the NORAD database. High
quality witnesses routinely report these uncorrelated targets to
UFO reporting agencies. In the 1950s, the Air Force estimated
that one third of the UFO reports from its aircrews and radars
were legitimate unknown flying objects. Obviously, they knew the
location of their own secret and classified aircraft thus their
and my estimates are that a third of the sightings are alien
craft. Filer's Files attempts to bring you the best available
sightings each week.

Carl Sagan and I.S. Shklovskii and their book "Intelligent Life
in the Universe" have written: "With the numbers we have
discussed, it seems possible that the earth has been visited by
various galactic civilizations many times (possibly every 10,000
years) during geological time. It is not out of the question
that artifacts of these visits still exist - although none have
been found to date - or even that some type of base is
maintained in the solar system to provide continuity for
successive expeditions. Because of weathering and the
possibility of detection and interference by the inhabitants of
the Earth, it might be preferable not to erect such a base on
the earth's surface." 1966, page 461.

The authors indicated the galactic visitors would most likely
place secret bases on Mars and the backside of the moon, to
avoid our civilization discovering their presence. A galactic
civilization studying Earth would soon learn that humans are
violent and war like. Camouflaging bases may be a standard
procedure. While I was stationed at Langley many of our
intelligence personnel regularly claimed that bases had in fact
been found on our Moon. The Brookings Report suggested that
religionists, especially Christians, along with scientists and
engineers would have difficulty accepting proof of artificiality
- which suggests that they would reject it if there was any way
they could do so.

Mars - Strong Indication of Alien Life

DENVER, COLORADO - Senior Space Writer Leonard David reports,
"Those twin robots hard at work on Mars have transmitted teasing
views that reinforce the prospect that microbial life may exist
on the red planet. Results from NASA's Spirit and Opportunity
Rovers are being looked over by a legion of planetary experts,
including a scientist who remains steadfast that his experiment
in 1976 proved the presence of active microbial life in the
topsoil of Mars.

"All factors necessary to constitute a habitat for life as we
know it exist on current-day Mars," explained Gilbert Levin,
executive officer for science at Spherix Incorporated of
Beltsville, Maryland. Levin made his remarks at the
International Symposium on Optical Science and Technology, the
49th annual meeting of Society of Photo-Optical Instrumentation
Engineers (SPIE).

Levin has a long-standing interest in time-weathered Mars and
the promise of life today on that distant and dusty world.
NASA's 1976 Viking mission to Mars was geared-up to look for
possible Martian life. And it was Levin's Labeled Release
experiment that made a provocative find: The presence of a
highly reactive agent in the surface material of Mars. Levin
concluded in 1997 that this activity was triggered by living
microorganisms lurking in the Martian soil - a judgment he
admits has not been generally accepted by the scientific
community. Now roll forward to 2004. Consider the findings of
Spirit and Opportunity, the golf-cart sized robots wheeling over
Mars at Gusev Crater and Meridiani Planum.

"Those rovers have been absolutely sensational, pouring out
thousands of images. Those images have lots of information in
them. And I've tried to deduce something in there relative to
life... and I think I found a lot," Levin told SPACE.com.

Editors Note: I talked to Dr. Levin and he is more convinced
than ever that there is microorganism life on Mars. I suggested
there may even be intelligent life. Look carefully at the Mars
Orbital Surveyor image below, do you see what Norman Bryden
found?

Mars Structures

Norman Bryden writes, "There are ball and dome like structures,
connected with rails and bridges. In places the entire landscape
is covered with panels and buildings that go up and around the
hills. There are towers of odd but symmetrical shapes that look
like what advanced cities of another planet look like in science
fiction books. There is scaffolding and huge areas completely
covered with structure. There are areas that look like parks,
water and trees. All kinds of roadways, ramps, corridors,
terraces and tunnels that cover the landscape preserving some of
the flow of the land, but are definitely structures and not
undisturbed landscape. This is definitely not an unmodified
landscape and is beyond any doubt intelligent in design rather
than most of the other landscapes. [] There are many thousands
of structures and many look like they are in good condition
indicating a recent history or are possibly currently inhabited.
Link to NASA image:

http://www.msss.com/moc_gallery/m07_m12/nonmaps/M11/M1103072.gif

Link to Specification:

Page:http://www.msss.com/moc_gallery/m07_m12/images/M11/M1103072.html

In this section to the right are tube and ramp structures. An
example of this can be seen by following the dark line from top
to bottom to the right of the center of the image. There are
also what look like large buildings to the right of the image
and in other places. The image is covered with structures.
Thanks to Norman Bryden.

Maine - Flying Triangle

LEWISTON -- It was about 11 PM, on September 15, 2004, as the
witness walked to his car, he heard a noise similar to a plane
and saw a low flying black object behind his house. He noticed
there were no red lights flashing and the three corners were lit
up in a regular light color and in the middle a light was
beaming down. There was a deep weird sound, that didn't sound
like a plane. He states, "I felt like I was in a movie." Behind
my house is probably about 4-5 miles of forest and hills. I
honestly believe that it was one (a UFO). Thanks to Peter
Davenport Director http://www.ufocenter.com/

Massachusetts - Disk

WALTHAM - The observer saw a disk-shaped object covered with
lights in the sky at 8 PM, on September 11, 2004. The object
was just hovering there for a number of minutes. The witness
states, "It was covered with lights and just hovered there."
Thanks to Peter Davenport Director http://www.ufocenter.com/

New York - Fast moving light

DARIEN CENTER -- Several people had three sightings of the same
object in a 15-minute period in southern sky on September 10,
2004. The craft was traveling at high-speed westward at 10:15
PM. It dropped in elevation from 30 degrees to 20 degrees, and
rapidly turned back toward the east, and faded away. The second
sighting occurred five minutes later, and a similar object was
again sighted in the southern sky at 40 degrees in elevation,
moving very fast toward the west, and faded out. It maintained
the same elevation with an azimuth scanned of about 45 degrees
from start to finish.

The third sighting was observed five minutes later, but nearly
overhead, traveling very fast toward the south. The elevation
spanned was about 60 degrees. This time the object was
noticeably brighter but made no noise, and did not change color.
It appeared as a point of off-white light, and slightly yellow
or gold colored. Each sighting duration was 3-4 seconds. Thanks
to Peter Davenport Director http://www.ufocenter.com/

New Jersey - Flying Triangle

VOORHEES -- At 4:25 AM, on September 16, 2004, the witness was
sitting in his living room and saw an object flying over the
tree line that looked like a *backward" triangle. The flat base
of the triangle in the front and the point in the rear was
moving WSW. There were three large red lights, one in each
corner of the triangle as well as a slow pulsing white light on
the bottom. It was cloudy and when the light pulsed on the
bottom the clouds directly over the object lit up white as well.
The witness states, "I went out on the balcony to get a better
look and there was no sound coming from it." "This was nothing
like I had ever seen. I immediately awakened my wife to tell her
about it. She insisted that I report it. I was so shaken after
seeing the object that I was unable to sleep at all until the
next evening. The witness lives about 20 minutes from the
Philadelphia International airport so he sees planes
frequently." Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
http://www.ufocenter.com/

Pennsylvania - Y Shaped White/Silver Craft

ZELIENOPLE - The witness reports, "We were traveling northbound
on Interstate 79 north of Pittsburgh at 4:45 PM, on September 6,
2004,in heavy traffic and we spotted a Y shaped white/silver
craft above the tree line west of the highway." At first we
thought it was some sort of remote controlled airplane because
it was making unbelievable circular maneuvers. However, it was
too large to be radio controlled. Also, the Y shape was unlike
any aircraft I have ever seen. The air show lasted for less than
20 seconds before we lost sight of the craft. Later, towards
the Zelienople exit, we saw the same craft traveling in a
straight pattern at a high rate of speed heading east toward the
Evan City.

The craft was 45 degrees above the horizon about 1/2 inch in
length. My boyfriend was surprised at the speed and size of this
craft. After we got home I had my son age 13, my boyfriend and
myself draw a picture of what we saw. We compared pictures. Each
was Y-shaped - similar to a Mercedes Automobile Logo, Thanks to
Peter Davenport Director http://www.ufocenter.com/

North Carolina - Rectangle

CHARLOTTE - A large rectangle shaped UFO was seen floating over
I-85 approaching the UNC Charlotte campus on September 17, 2004,
during heavy rush hour traffic. The observer says, "I was going
about 15 mph at 5:05 PM, and saw in the sky ahead of me about
1/2 mile away a large gray rectangle." I estimate its length as
long as a football field. It was gray with panels that were
somewhat reflective. It floated motionless and then drifted to
the right. I lost sight of it behind the tree line as I drove
along. I removed my sunglasses and watched it for ten seconds.
As I drove along toward the campus, there were several auto
accidents. I can't explain what I saw. Thanks to Peter Davenport
Director http://www.ufocenter.com/ HARLEYSVILLE - At 8:25 PM, I
saw lights above me arranged similar to a Mercedes logo, though
I could not see the shape of the ship. The lights appeared to be
approximately 2 miles above us at the 20 miles away. A friend of
mine witnessed the lights as well but discounted it, claiming it
must be a plane. When my friend went inside the lights came
closer to me at a rapid rate until they were a half-mile away.
It stayed at the same altitude, made a sharp 45-degree turn,
hovered in place for 20 seconds, until the lights went off. I
don't really believe in UFOs but what was it? Thanks to Peter
Davenport Director http://www.ufocenter.com/

Ohio - UFO Stops Traffic on Turnpike

TOLEDO-CLEVELAND - In the early morning hours calls started
coming into the radio station WTAM in Cleveland with Mike
Trivisonno, 1100 AM Dial, where people on the Ohio Turnpike
started seeing a UFO between Toledo and Cleveland on September
22, 2004, at 4 AM. The callers to the radio station said they
were seeing a huge circle with green, yellow, and orange lights.
Trucks and cars were pulling off the turnpike to observe the
object. At the same time a 12 to 15 fighter jets were allegedly
scrambled. People close to an air force base in Michigan (near
Lake Sinclair) said it reminded them of 911. The witness stated,
"Also, my husband, myself, and our neighbors, observed a lot of
military craft in the sky. We even saw two Black-Hawks fly over.
Thanks to Peter Davenport Director http://www.ufocenter.com/

FOSTORIA -- George Ritter continues to use his RCA VCR to
video tape UFOs moving over 100 feet in one thirtieth of a
second. This movement indicates a speed of 2045 mph. The Toledo
TV channel came out to interview George Ritter and televised
some of his videos as proof of the UFO visits. Thanks to George
Ritter.

FINDLAY - The witness was looking at the sky at 11:30 PM, on
September 11, 2004, and saw what looked like a strobe light move
left to right, then up and down. Because of the strange
maneuvers he called a friend and told him about the light. His
friend also saw the light move left to right and up and down
fast. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director

GERMANTOWN/FARMERSVILLE - The observer saw a band of red and
white lights at midnight on September 11, 2004 that moved slowly
up and down, to the left and right, within the same general
vicinity. They moved below tree line several times for about a
minute. A local newspaper reported a crop circle was found
nearby. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
http://www.ufocenter.com/

Michigan - Family Spots Flying Triangle

CORUNNA -- Looking east at 10 PM, just over the field we spotted
bright lights low on the horizon on September 9, 2004, and they
appeared to be heading towards us. As the lights moved closer
you could make out that the craft had three large, round, very
bright (non-flashing) white lights on the underside that formed
a triangle. The craft was very silent, flying low and moving at
a slow pace across the moonless sky. They state, "We went out in
the backyard to get a better look as it flew just about directly
overhead and we were able to see only a slight outline of the
craft due to the lights shining so bright." We lost sight of the
craft as it headed southwest in the general direction of
Lansing. Thanks to Peter Davenport, Director
http://www.ufocenter.com/

Wisconsin - High Altitude Fast Moving Light

RACINE - The witness writes, "My wife and I were out on our
patio tonight about 20 miles south of Milwaukee, at about 8:35
p.m., September 9, 2004, a beautiful night. She looked up at the
clear sky and said...its beautiful, look at all the stars! I,
then, noticed one light that was moving at a high rate of speed.
Its altitude was very high. I am an airline pilot with over
12,000 hours experience and I'm a First Officer flying passenger
jets for a regional air carrier. This was no aircraft. My wife
and I both watched the object as it moved from WSW to ENE....
and then it turned 90 degrees left (North) and maintained the
same rate of speed. It made the turn instantaneously. I mean
like a 90-degree turn that you would draw on a piece of paper.
No aircraft that I know about can do that. As a member of AMSAT,
I also know satellites and they don't make 90-degree turns
either. I would estimate that it's altitude at above 60,000
feet. In fact when it went by, I pointed and showed my wife and
said look honey a satellite...and then about 10 seconds later in
the blink of an eye...it turned 90 degrees and disappeared from
view within about 20 seconds. The luminosity of the object never
faded. There was no sound or trail as with a meteor or bolides.
In 21 years of flying professionally, I have never seen anything
like I saw tonight. Thanks to Peter Davenport
http://www.hbccufo.com/

((NUFORC Note: The International Space Station passed to the
south of Racine at 20:10 hrs. on this date, so if the time
estimate by the witness is correct, the object could not have
been the ISS. PD))

Kentucky - Flying Triangle

JACKSON -- At 9 PM, on September 6, 2004, a triangular object
was seen with a bright white light, plus red and blue flashing
lights The white flashing light was more brilliant than the
other two lights. The witness reported that, "One of the objects
seemed to be closer than the object on the right but both
objects were stationary, and not moving." They hovered in the
southwestern sky for a few hours. I watched them for three hours
then got bored and went to bed. At one point, a third object
joined the two and as suddenly as it appeared, took off to the
west at an incredible speed. The reason I thought the object to
be triangular was because the lights did not rotate in a circle.
Thanks to Peter Davenport http://www.ufocenter.com/

Missouri - Flying Triangle

PUXICO -- On September 9, 2004, at 9 PM, the observer walked out
on his back porch and noticed a bright light in the northwest.
He had seen this several times before, but didn't take the time
to look closely. This time he got his binoculars and saw the
object hovering but at times it bounced to the left or right and
up or down. When looking at it through the binoculars it was
triangle shaped and was blinking red, blue and white or yellow.
He states, "What was really strange was it looked like you were
looking through heat waves as it shimmered and seemed to be
spinning." It was very hard to watch. It was flying over a place
where there is only woods and a lake, and a place called Mingo
Swamp Wildlife Refuge. I watched for half an hour, got spooked
and went inside. Thanks to Peter Davenport
http://www.ufocenter.com/

Arkansas - Large Triangular Craft

FORT SMITH - The observer's home is at the top of a hill and a
few moments after dark on September 7, 2004, he heard a very
soft low humming sound. At 9:15 PM, it became a low rumbling
sound. He states, "As I looked in the direction of the sound, I
saw this huge craft approach very slowly, it was flying very low
at about 400 feet" This ship had a triangle shape and its lights
glowed from underneath and alternated in their light pattern as
it passed over me. I grabbed my flashlight and shined it up at
the thing as it flew slowly over our area. Someone else had to
see this huge craft, but it was so quiet and seemed to take
forever to go over the area. I was shocked and called loudly to
my Mom in the next room. She said, "She heard the rumbling or
hum that was unlike a normal engine propulsion sound." I then
grabbed my flashlight and ran off the porch to the street corner
to get a better look as it left our area. This ship or whatever
this was flew over the edge of town and out of my view. We have
also seen other sightings as well in our area in the last few
months. This thing was huge... my God what or who was flying
this ship? Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
http://www.ufocenter.com/

Texas - Flying Triangle and Boomerang Pictures

CORPUS CHRISTI -- My daughter (age 2) and I were sitting outside
at 11:40 AM, on September 6, 2004, when she pointed out some
airplanes. We have made this a game and play it daily. We live
close to Cabinis Field Airport and relatively close to NAS
Corpus Christi, so we see aircraft all the time. When she said
"airplane" I instinctively looked up and initially thought they
were two seagulls but as I watched, I realized there were two
metallic craft flying in formation. I stuck my head in the back
door and told my husband what we were watching and he came
outside. They flew like birds constantly in tight circular
patterns and formation. Their maneuvering patterns were too
difficult for an aircraft to perform. They flew below the few
clouds and as they turned toward us, the reflection of the sun
hitting the objects made them seem five times larger. They were
silvery white objects of triangular shape. They made no sound as
they flew over our heads. There were no vapor trails or
contrails coming off the craft either. Thanks to Peter Davenport
http://www.ufocenter.com/

KAUFMAN COUNTY - The witness was out taking a few pictures of
the sky on September 15, 2004, when he noticed a strange craft
going northwest at 3:16 PM. It was probably going 300 to 400 mph
so he took a picture with his Kodak camera. He states, "I
thought it was a black triangle at first but it looks like it's
got a straight backside and rounded on the front sides kind of
like a half moon." I'm sending you a copy of the main picture
and some enlargements; it was partly cloudy today with a slight
breeze, maybe 10mph. I saw one jet afterwards. Thanks to Brian
Vike, http://www.hbccufo.com/

KINGWOOD -- Two flying triangles with rounded edges and a
metallic surface were flying in a straight line to the north-
northwest at a fairly rapid pace on September 13, 2004, at 7:15
PM. The sunlight glinted off the objects as they slowly spun
around each other in half to full circles, while periodically
reversing directions. They flew in a straight line, maintaining
a steady speed. We lost sight of them when they flew beyond the
tree line. x. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
http://www.ufocenter.com/

COPPERAS COVE -- About 9:30 PM, on September 15, 2004, a glowing
and blurry elongated object was spotted flying in a SSW
direction at multiple velocities. It started moving back and
forth to the east and west. The movements were accompanied by
altitude adjustments, and rapid erratic changes in direction.
The object had mostly a reddish glow that at times appeared
yellowish. The object made numerous movements, would vanish then
reappear fifteen seconds later. I yelled for three other family
members to observe. Four witnesses observed the objects
maneuvers and started a long discussion on what they thought
this object could have been. The object did not move with the
characteristics of a standard aircraft or helicopter; and there
was no accompanying sound. Bottom Line: This was a UFO sighting
for sure. I have not previously witnessed any known objects
with its appearance or flight characteristics

Bill Clark writes, "I thought you might be interested in my new
website The Texas X Files." It has all my PhD research on why I
was expelled from the University of Texas at Austin for non
academic reasons - I had a 3.8 GPA), a semester short of getting
my PhD in Aerospace Engineering. Their letter of dismissal is
on my website, showing a computer program I wrote that found a
faster, safer, more efficient trajectory to Mars. I was
expelled right after I published a couple of speculative reports
in two Ufology journals on some of the applications of Celestial
Mechanics. My research covers a political analysis of UFOs,
aliens in the Bible, especially Leviathan in the Book of Job; a
hole new theory of Celestial Mechanics showing how UFO's work,
spaceship engineering applications; and lots more. Thanks to
Bill Clark http://celestialmechanics.org/

Colorado - Ghostlike Object

LITTLETON -- On September 6, 2004, a ghostlike object passed
almost directly overhead from northwest to southeast at 10:05
PM, covering an arc distance of 50 degrees in five seconds at
high altitude. The most notable feature of this object was its
ghostlike nature. It appeared similar to a telescopic view of a
nebula and had a diameter of about half that of the lunar/solar
disk. It was very faint but distinct. I was enjoying the crystal
clear dark sky and was looking straight up as it passed across
my line of sight. I followed it until I lost sight of it to the
southeast at about 45 degrees elevation. It was not a meteor and
was not brilliant like a fireball. It was a diffuse, ghostly
object that swiftly passed overhead. Thanks to Peter Davenport
Director http://www.ufocenter.com/

New Mexico - UFO Image

SANTA FE -- This picture was photographed by a colleague, by
chance. It was taken on September 20, 2004, at 9:20 PM. There
were lights in the sky from the celebration of the Sixth
Biennial of Young Art , and numerous photos were taken that
night. The photographer did not know what it was until he saw
the 17 photos he had taken. Those who looked at the photograph
realized that the object was of a massive size, with a metallic
center. It appeared that a wake could be seen behind the object.
More details are lacking. source: Thanks to Gustavo Coria -
Moderador de Rosario Watchers.
http://ar.groups.yahoo.com/group/RosarioWatchers/

Arizona - Orbs

GLENDALE -- I have had 2 sightings of 2 different objects in 3
days! At 1:30 PM, on September 6, 2004, I was outside working at
about 1:30 PM, and I looked up to watch a commercial jet liner-
passing overhead when I spotted a glowing "orb" (sphere?) behind
and above the jet. The object was glowing quite brightly. It was
hard to judge its altitude. The object was traveling
north/northeast and it was moving at least 10 times faster than
the commercial airliner which was headed due north. I heard no
sound from the object and it left no contrail and I saw no other
lights on it except for the glow from the object itself. It flew
a straight and level course until I lost sight of it. Thanks to
Peter Davenport Director http://www.ufocenter.com/

California - Glowing Object Videotaped

SONORA -- Between 20:00 and 21:15, at 9:45 PM, on September 9,
2004, fifteen glowing disc- or orb-like objects were seen
heading in various directions either together, or one behind the
other, or crossing each other's path. One glowing object in
particular flew no more than 200 yards overhead, heading to the
northeast. The object was huge, bright yellow or silver-white in
color, and moved very slowly at first as it was directly
overhead, then accelerated at incredible speed and rapidly
disappeared over the tree line and was videotaped by both
witnesses, one with a Sony Hi-8 Camcorder on a tripod, the other
with a hand-held Sony Digital Camcorder

Washington - Cigar and Low Flying Triangle

SEATTLE - Several observers spotted the UFO over West Seattle,
flying west on September 12, 2004, at 11:11 AM. Four people were
on the porch and sighted the object directly above us. Two
people saw it immediately and two did not, when all four were
aware of it, they went to the front door facing west. But the
UFO was not sighted, as it was traveling at a high speed, faster
than a commercial airliner or private plane. Only two people out
of four actually viewed the object, as the other two were not in
a good spot to see it. The UFO seems to be ruled out as a meteor
breaking up and displayed two sources of light, at either end of
the object. The form was seemingly cigar shaped. Thanks to Peter
Davenport Director http://www.ufocenter.com/

MARYSVILLE - The witness noticed a set of three white lights
just to the southeast of 67th Avenue on September 16, 2004, at
11:11 AM. He states, "I was on the cell phone speaking to a
friend describing the UFO and saw it was stationary over a
little farm house next to the road. Thanks to Peter Davenport
Director http://www.ufocenter.com/ Canada - Sighting on Base

PETAWAWA AIR BASE -- "Dave Curtis writes, " One cold night in
1977. as a teenager living on Canadian Forces Base Petawawa," I
was walking across a large open field on the base between
Dundonald Hall and the main gate with my friend Dave Nickle. I
had the feeling I was being watched. I looked up and saw a huge
illuminated object directly overhead. It was about 200 feet
straight up and was as big as a house! It was round like a
floating wagon wheel with a central hub and an illuminated outer
ring. Instead of spokes, it had other irregular shaped objects
that seemed to spiral outward towards the outer ring. Some parts
were black, but I couldn't see stars through it. It didn't make
a sound and I stared at it for probably 5 seconds. I was scared
and asked my friend to look up, by the time I could convince
him, it had gone. Last week, a similar object was described on a
UFO show that disappeared while he was running from it. Thanks
to Dave Curtis, Oakville Ontario Canada.

LONDON, ONTARIO - The witness saw a bright object hover above
the trees at 3:00 PM, on September 11, 2004, far off to the
north on a very clear night. The object was stationary, though
it weaved left and right in short jerky movements. It had white
and blue lights, and none were red like a passenger jet. There
was a strange high pitch sound. I can assure you from years of
observances at the night sky, I have never seen anything like
it. I was very shaken up by it.

Brazil - Flare Type Light --

ATIBAIA -- On September 11, 2004, at 3 PM, an amateur sky
watcher saw two flare like lights in the northeast sky that
dimmed to a star like appearance. The observer had been tracking
satellites when he saw the flares that lasted several seconds.
He was able to follow them until they disappeared on the
horizon, They flew on the same path, one slightly left of the
other. They looked like the two pointer stars to the Southern
Cross but were moving fast. I have not seen this ever before and
live at Lat.23.117S long 46.55W. Thanks to Peter Davenport
Director http://www.ufocenter.com/

UK/England - Flying Triangle

ANDOVER --I was letting my dog out early Sunday morning
September 12, 2004, about 5 AM, when it was just getting light.
I first noticed what looked like a satellite going east to west
but there were 2 side by side. Then going west to east came a
rapidly flashing red and white light. Then moved slowly and
silently, at about 500m altitude. As this pair crossed the sky
another came into view directly underneath the first at about
200m altitude, moving the same speed, in formation. This pair
drifted past followed by another three sets of pairs all going
the same direction. The strange thing was that I could see the
lights flashing down the side of the craft and on the back could
be seen two fixed lights that may have been exhausts? The
objects themselves were invisible. Thanks to Peter Davenport
Director http://www.ufocenter.com/

Netherlands - Two Fast Red Lights

KRIMPEN A/D IJSSEL - I was smoking a cigarette in my garden at
9:45 PM, on September 9, 2004, and I'm looking up and see two
red circle shaped lights moving very fast simultaneously to the
east. When they were gone after +/- 5 seconds I noticed two
planes in the sky were much smaller and apparently much further
away, but I didn't hear a sound when the lights were moving by.
It looked like the two lights belonged together and were a part
of something else, but unfortunately I couldn't see anything
else. What was it?? Thanks to Peter Davenport
http://www.ufocenter.com/ France - Disk

NICE -- On September 16, 2004 at 10:20 PM a disk at high
altitude with changing colors was observed for two minutes
flying over the Vendome Hotel . The bright light was flying from
west to east with bright flashing red, green, blue, and yellow
lights. The witness grabbed his camera and to his surprise after
he got home he found that he was successful in capturing it with
his camera. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
http://www.ufocenter.com/

Israel - Light

MITZPE RAMON - The witness reports seeing a light, brighter than
any star flying to the northeast at 7 PM, on Friday evening
September 10, 2004. There was no aircraft or Army training
around at the time. It flew slowly to the east and eventually
disappeared. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
http://www.ufocenter.com/ New Zealand - Sphere Meteorite?

TAURANGA - The witness was out having a cigarette on his deck at
1:30 AM on September 16, 2004, when he saw a light amber colored
object appear in the sky traveling south in a straight line.. It
seemed to go from a size similar to a very large star to a size
similar to the moon then back again. It also seemed to travel
through the clouds. I hope it was a meteorite because it freaked
me out a bit. Five years ago, I saw two strange lights in the
sky that definitely were not meteorites or Venus or car lights
or squid boats!. I also know quite a few people that have seen
strange lights. I think we need proper and absolute
investigation on behalf of the all the scientific community,
instead of one-half claiming alien spacecraft and the other
claiming holograms and every other excuse in the book. Thanks to
Peter Davenport Director http://www.ufocenter.com/


The Greater UFO/ET Congress of 2004

Will be held November 6 and 7th 2004, 11:00 am to 3:00 pm
Saturday and Sunday at the The Days Inn, Route 206 & NJTP Exit
#7 North Bordentown NJ, 609-298-6100 For more information visit
www.DRUFO.org or phone Pat Marcattillio (609) -631-8955 or Tom
Benson (609)-883-6926 after 6:00 PM.



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   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Oct > Oct 7

              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 19:33:32 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 07:59:31 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 14:33:58 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 12:51:23 -0400
>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

<snip>

>I thank Bruce Maccabee for providing me a copy of the FLIR video
>tape data transcription and the cockpit recording translation.
>If you are in part responsible for the translation then I would
>like to thank you for that work. This data set helped me to
>analyze the multiple light section and also come to the same
>conclusion he did. That the radar contact did not match the
>multiple lights sighting. Since the most hype in the UFO
>community and the world press was on the multiple lights
>segment, then that allowed me to see that I would not be wasting
>my time trying to get radar contact off oil well platforms. Thus
>I was able to match the Landsat satellite images with the FLIR
>multiple light segment to a high degree of satisfaction. I agree
>that a nice test flight would confirm or deny this theory. If
>the oil well platforms had been 50 degrees off or something I
>would have been satisfied that they were not the cause. But we
>have a very good match of a collection of flares, not just one
>flare or two. This seems highly suggestive and cannot be
>dismissed.

Unless the latitude and longitude data and the flir azimuth data
are _very_ wrong (as compared to what one would expect for a 1/2
million dollar system; flir+GPS+installation), there seems no
doubt that, after the plane made a right turn (starting at about
16:51:30) and headed generally eastward (after about 16:52:30),
the flir recorded lights were generally in the direction of the
oil field. Nevertheless, the oil field flame explanation is not
a "slam dunk" which is why I have requested (lo, these many
months) an experiment that might take half an hour to do
("manana... is soon enough for me" - old song; alternatively,
"right now is too soon to begin procrastinating").

>>First, the real object of curiosity on the FLIR recording has
>>nothing to do with those lights! It is, in point of fact, the
>>_radar_ data that is being reported on the object that was
>>approaching the city of Carmen that is most intriguing of all
>>and which may 'possibly' be evidence for something _very
>>unusual_ to have been flying around in the sky that day. That is
>>why I refer to the FLIR lights discussion as an 'Albatross
>>around the neck of this investigation.' It has proven to be a
>>huge distraction from what may be real 'evidence' of the
>>presence of a "UFO" in the sky that day.

John has it basically right here: we don't have enough data to
prove that that lights - at least some of them - were absolutely
not the oil field flares.... a proof which _should_ be possible
since (a little philosophy here) conventional objects obey
conventional physics, i.e., it should be possible to duplicate
the video (assuming the flares aren't turned off). Hence the
"ufoness" of the lights must be considered tentative. The radar
target, on the other hand, is (was) unusual.

>I assume that you are only interested in lights if they have
>radar contact associated with them. The light you seem to be
>interested in is from 16:52:54-16:59:14.

>Here is what the translation says during that time.

>16:52:52 VOICE A: Come, come.
>         VOICE B: Go.
>         VOICE A: Right, right.

<snip>

>16:57:02 VOICE C: It's passing by Carmen.
          VOICE D: It is still going.
>16:57:19 VOICE D: What's it doing?
>         VOICE C: It's turning.
>         VOICE D: Is it turning right?
>         VOICE C: Yes.
>16:59:36 VOICE A: Just a light. It couldn't be distinguished
>         VOICE B: It couldn't be determined if it was a plane
>                  or something else.
>         VOICE C: It is the same one that we saw awhile ago.
>         VOICE D: Yes.

>I don't see anything impressive here. It seems like they have
>found a aircraft on FLIR and radar and for some reason don't
>bother to pursue it.

>Did you find witnesses in Carmen who saw this object fly over?

This early version of the translation does not make it clear who
said what. A more recent version does. Furthermore, there was a
light that _might_ match the radar target that was detected for
a short time _before_ the right turn. (The transcription given
above consists of events after the turn when, as I said, the
lights were generally in the direction of the oil field. The
radar target direction was up to 30 deg away from the flir
direction when the radar target was over Cd.del Carmen.)

>>Everybody is so hung up on the lights that little or no
>>attention has paid to the fact that the object that was being
>>tracked approaching Carmen was flying in a most erratic fashion.
>>(Speeding up and slowing down as it flew.)

>Because the mutliple lights SOLD the UFO story to the media.
>They wouldn't care about one fuzzy light which had verbal radar
>data collected on it (and sparse is that data as seen above). If
>you have more hidden radar data, I would appreciate it.

>>How is it you know nothing of this possible 'genuine unknown'
>>that was reported/observed/followed, by the radar operator?

>Oh I knew, thanks to Bruce M's generous data.

The most recent translations show that the radar target
apparently suddenly appeared on the radar and the crew assumed
it was a small plane that had just taken off from some "hidden"
runway or that it had been flying low and moved into the radar
beam. The initial distance was about 5 mi (estimate) at
16:42:20. (Note: the mileages have been converted from nautical
to statute, except as noted below.)

The plane turned 30 deg to head toward the radar target and the
crew began a visual and flir search for it. By 16:42:50 the
target was directly ahead of the C-26 at a distance of about 3
mi. The plane was flying at about 230 mph and the radar gave the
target speed as 86 mph (75 kt).

30 seconds lated the distance was 2.4 mi and speed 75 mph.

24 seconds after that the distance was given as 2.46 mi but the
speed was still lower than the plane's speed: 111 mph.

(Why didn't the plane get even closer to it?)

At 16:44:04 the radar operator said that the speed changed
rapidly from 130 to 328 and then 245 mph. All this time the
distance remained the same.

Continuing, based on the radar operators reports:

-16:44:15   Its speed had increased to about 223 mph
-16:44:30   It was at 12:00 (directly ahead) at 2.4 mi
-16:44:52   It was 2.4 mi ahead traveling at about 203 mph in
            the direction 300 deg (essentially the same direction
            as the airplane)
-16:45:00   It was 2.4 mi ahead
-16:45:45   The radar operator reported that the radar was
            repeatedly showing the target at 12:00 with a speed
            of 237 mph in the direction 301deg
-16:46:42   It was 2.4 mi ahead, traveling along 302 deg
            and the radar operator stated the speed as (166 kt)
            190 mph but then corrected it to (207 kt) 236 mph
-16:48:25   It was 2.4 mi ahead

At this time the plane was about 48 mi from Cd. del Carmen.

The radar information indicates that the target remained ahead
of the plane at a fixed distance for about 4 minutes even though
it's speed seemed to change somewhat during that time. The next
data on the radar target was recorded after the right turn. The
target and the plane had been traveling northwest (about 300
azimuth) before the turn. After the turn the plane traveled
first due east and then east-northeast (82 azimuth) so, after
the turn the C-26 and the object were traveling in nearly
opposite directions.

-16:53:12  It was now behind the plane at 7:00, 12 mi away and
           traveling at about 380 mph, according to the radar,
           in the direction 2-8-3.
-16:55:45  It was near the end of the radar range, 37 mi away
           (31.8 nm)
-16:56:08  It was a few miles from Carmen
-16:56:17  It was one or two miles from Carmen
-16:56:26  It was not on the radar screen but the distance readout
           shows 43 mi (37 nm)
-16:56:28  It was over Carmen, which was about 48 mi behind the
           plane and about -150 deg azimuth relative to the
           direction of the plane. (The FLIR light detected at this
           time was at an azimuth of about -130 deg  azimuth. Hence
           it probably was not the radar target. )
-16:56:50  The target was lost.
-16:57:03  The radar operator reported "It's passing by Carmen. It
           is still there."
-16:57:19  The radar operator reported "It seems to be turning."
           Then radar lost it.

Estimates of the speed of the target _after_ the plane turned to the
right show values over 350 mph.

<snip>

>>Everybody is so focused and exhibiting such 'tunnel-vision' on
>>those damned lights, that the genuine mystery/anomaly in the
>>FLIR recording, continues to go completely ignored by all the
>>"armchair commentators." (Such as yourself.)

>Tsk-tsk. No need for your little insults. I have not called you
>names. Go and show the data about the radar and lights. My guess
>is that the radar error (since it was not recorded and since I
>have not seen radar operator error estimates) will make the
>light fall into the aircraft category. Go ahead and do the
>analysis and show the data (as I have for the mutiple lights
>section).

<snip>

>>If there is any 'evidence' for a "UFO" on that FLIR recording,
>>it is the _radar_object_ not the lights! The shame of it all is,
>>the only recording we have of the radar target/object over
>>Carmen is an _audio_ recording of the data the radar man was
>>calling out. They do not make or save recordings of radar, only
>>the FLIR. Our mutual loss in terms of having any 'hard' evidence
>>in hand.

>Yes, it is sad. I agree with you.

>>Now, if you want to spend your time in a way that may yield some
>>actual results, then focus your attention on the radar object
>>over Carmen and leave any discussion about the 'oil well fires'
>>until the Mexican military has conducted the test
>>flight/recording that Bruce requested. And, calibrated the FLIR
>>so that we know if and how much 'slack' and in which direction
>>up or down, may exist in the FLIR equipment. If the calibration
>>test shows that the lights were in fact 'above' the horizon, I
>>will await Mr. Franz's 'flying' oil well theory to follow on its
>>heels.

>What alot of baloney. Yes, let's sit on our hands until the
>military goes into action. Well, I think my Landsat data and
>3D modelling do a damn good job explaining the multiple lights.
>Others are gathering images/video of the area. This is good
>work!

>>Right now, those lights mean diddly. The _radar object_ is where
>>everyone's attention needs to be focused. Let's all ask the
>>Mexican military to perform the tests, then after we have the
>>results in hand, we'll talk about em.>

The radar target is unusual for the following major reason: it
was not seen visually nor by the flir even though it was only a
little over 2 miles away. Yet the radar was able to pick it up
and track it to a distance of about 47 miles. A crude estimate
based on the published sensitivity of that radar suggests that
the radar cross-section was many square meters. That suggests
that the object reflecting the radar was itself meters in size.
So why wasn't it seen? If another plane, then why didn't it
generate any heat? We don't have any flying object capable of
hundreds of mph speed that doesn't generate some heat (and has
some size).

As for the seemingly random speed changes, _perhaps_ that can be
attributed to the radar which can't "see" anything closer than
about 2 miles because of its pulse length. However, the speedup
of the object _after_ the plane turned to the right seems
unusual to me. For at least 4 minutes it paced the plane, hardly
an indication of an effort to avoid the plane. And then after
the plane was no longer chasing it, it "put the pedal to the
metal" and may have reached a speed twice that of the C-26
before going off the radar over Carmen city. Was this object
"playing" with the surveillance plane?

>Yes, the radar object with light in the first part of the video
>is the only UFO of interest although there are alot of FLIR
>lights that no one has adequately explained yet and which do not
>show up on Landsat images.


Which FLIR lights do you find inadequately explained?








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Oct > Oct 7

              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 21:17:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 08:01:35 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 10:21:28 EDT
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

<snip>

>Maybe this UFO dislcosure by their government is their way of
>continuing this effort. Maybe the best weapon against tyranny
>and evil is honesty and courage. It would be funny to see Mexico
>noted in history for honor and valor putting the rest of us to
>shame. It's like I've said before on this list that every
>country on Earth can't have some sort of secret black ops that
>hushes up and hides all the UFO evidence. The country that sees
>the value of openly discussing and disclosing the info might
>turn the tables of commerce and power in a way we haven't seen
>before. It's more than obvious the U.S. is frightened of
>confronting this issue and at first called abductees and
>witnesses and researchers 'crazy' and in retribution would
>imprison them. Yet Dr. Mack proved they weren't insane and that
>means a mandated look back at the treatment of these people.
>Talk about a malpractice suit of cosmic proportions on the way!

>So if we aren't 'nuts', we're due an apology and I mean a HUGE
>apology from every news service and government service and I
>don't mean when they get around to it, I demand it NOW.

>So let's not forget that at least the Mexican Government kept
>their word on that end.


Hi Greg,

Kudos graciously accepted. :)

Since tyranny and evil are neither honest nor courageous, I
think those traits serve as a litmus test at least, and the
seeds of rebellion at most. Revolutions often begin with someone
speaking up.

As for apologies and compensation, the US government has a
fairly piss-poor record on that issue. I strongly doubt that it
will change in the near future. There's a bunch of folks ahead
of you. The list of the persecuted in this nation's
history...past and present, is a disgrace. It continues today
for many if not all of them.

Luckily however, the opportunity for change is coming. As in
Mexico, a democracy is struggling to be reborn here, as well.

Hopefully the ashes of hasty, pre-emptive war will crumble away
to reveal a new America, no longer afraid to face the seemingly
unanswerable questions, but indeed afraid not to. No longer
willing to coerce cooperation, or ignore reasoned criticism, or
hide simple human truths from the governed. Pipe dreams?

Hopeful? Certainly. Odds? Astronomically against. About as
likely as you getting your apology, Greg. But it can be a start.
Mexico may seem like an odd place for a new democratic shift.
What is even more odd is the bright light it shines on how far
we've strayed.


Best Regards,

Kyle










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   Oct > Oct 7

              Re: Skeleton In Brazilian Museum Might Be Alien -

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 21:25:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 08:20:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Skeleton In Brazilian Museum Might Be Alien -


>From: Bob Shell <bob.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 10:39:26 -0400
>Subject: Re: Skeleton In Brazilian Museum Might Be Alien

>>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 08:19:28 -0300
>>Subject: Skeleton In Brazilian Museum Might Be Alien

>On Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 07:52  AM, A. J. Gevaerd wrote:

>>Photos at www.ufo.com.br/index.php?arquivo=notComp.php&id=580

>Hello A.J.,

>It just looks like the skeleton of a deformed child to me.


Hi Bob and A.J.,

Agreed, Bob. The image certainly does not appear to depict a
life form which would in any way constitute an evolutionary leap
forward. Advanced extra-terrestrial? Confidence is not high.


Best,

Kyle







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              Re: Skeleton In Brazilian Museum Might Be Alien -

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 21:29:45 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 08:21:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Skeleton In Brazilian Museum Might Be Alien -


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 13:30:12 EDT
>Subject: Re: Skeleton In Brazilian Museum Might Be Alien

<snip>

>Could you post the exact page where these photos are so we don't
>have to search around?


Hi Greg,

Here's the link...

http://www.ufo.com.br/?arquivo=notComp.php&id=580

Worked for me.....

Best,

Kyle







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                            U.S. DOD 'Fact Sheet'

From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 21:46:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 08:33:43 -0400
Subject: U.S. DOD 'Fact Sheet'


In 1968 we put together a little booklet of UFO clippings from
1948 to 1968 (which we resurrected recently for sale on eBay)
and for which we were excoriated by NICAP way back when because
we didn't include dates on the clippings.

In that booklet is a "fact sheet" from the Department of Defense
(circa 1956, maybe later) which we've reproduced for UFO UpDates
aficionados and placed online at:

http://www.fkbureau.org

We hope it's somewhat interesting, especially to UFO newbies.


Rich Reynolds
Fort Wayne MediaWatch








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   Oct > Oct 7

                 Watchdog Accuses Ministry Of Defence Of UFO

From: William Bolt <ab5sy.nul>
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 19:49:44 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 08:41:43 -0400
Subject: Watchdog Accuses Ministry Of Defence Of UFO


Received this in todays email but found it to be older then dirt
- Tue 3 Dec 2002

Some of you on the List may find the URL of interest.

Watchdog accuses Ministry of Defence of UFO cover-up

The Ministry of Defence tried to cover up one of the country's
most famous sightings of an Unidentified Flying Object, a
parliamentary watchdog said today.

Full article:

http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=453&id=1347432002










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              Re: Interesting Nuclear Propulsion Systems Site -

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 21:57:39 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 08:50:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Interesting Nuclear Propulsion Systems Site -


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 17:51:48 -0300
>Subject: Re: Interesting Nuclear Propulsion Systems Site

<snip>

>The Orion Pproject  was really small potatoes compared to these.

>Almost all of the technical reports were classified.


Hi Stan, and Greg,

According to what I read, Orion consumed 7 years and 11 million
dollars. It was classified also until Dyson, et.al. lobbied for
its declassification so funding could be sought.

One program goal was a 125-day round-trip to Mars with 8
astronauts and 100-tons of gear...while Apollo was still
struggling with getting 3 men up in the nose of a ballistic
missile.

I don't think it is fair to say it was *really small potatoes*.

The Air Force would have backed it in a second if it could have
been turned into a way to kill lots of people. Without that, it
was just a liability that carried the stigma of "atomic power".
The project was rendered moot by the Test Ban Treaty.

On wonders what you'd be up to now Stan, if the Treaty had not
existed.


Regards,

Kyle







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                           Extraordinary Phenomena

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 09:33:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 09:33:18 -0400
Subject: Extraordinary Phenomena




Source: The Western Mail - Cardiff, Wales

http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0200wales/tm_objectid=14726821&method=fu
ll&siteid=50082&headline=extraordinary-phenomena-name_page.html

10-07-04

Extraordinary Phenomena

Robin Turner


Although it is easy to be sceptical about strange phenomena such
as near-death experiences, the world is littered with examples
very difficult to explain away...

THE ANGELS OF MONS

Heavily outnumbered British soldiers were able to defeat a major
German advance at the Battle of Mons in Belgium in 1914.

After laying down a withering fire that beat back the enemy,
scores of Tommies reported receiving considerable assistance
from an angelic host that had descended from heaven.

URI GELLER

Despite much scoffing from sceptics, the Israeli-born spoon
bender continues to confound with his ability to make metal wilt
simply by rubbing it.

However, attempts to use his psychic powers to assist the
England football team in crunch matches, have proved less
successful.

UFOs

While there has never been any conclusive proof of visitors from
other planets, many people cannot accept that something as vast
as our galaxy - some 100,000 light years across - holds no other
life.

In recent years, much of the focus of UFO stories has switched
to alleged US Government collusion, amid tales of alien autopsy
and the popular X Files TV series.

CURSE OF THE MUMMIES

When novelist Mari Corelli published a warning in March 1923,
four months after the fabulous tomb of Tutankhamun was found,
that the curse of the mummies would be upon those who had
discovered it, few took notice.

But following the death of the dig's Welsh benefactor, Lord
Caernarvon, just a month later, and subsequent other tragedies,
tales of curses made by long-dead Egyptian Pharaohs still live
on.







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              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: Santiago Yturria <syturria.nul>
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 02:16:19 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 09:45:18 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 06:26:14 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>From: Santiago Yturria <syturria.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 14:07:35 -0500
>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 12:02:23 -0700 (PDT)
>>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>>Do not prejudge the outcome. One possibility is as you state,
>>>but you must be willing to accept the other possiblity that it
>>>"proves" the "oil well fire" explanation. A serious investigator
>>>would not bemoan an explanation as a "stinking albatross". It
>>>currently has alot of data to support it which the tests would
>>>help confirm or deny.

>>The oil flames speculation is based on the alleged FLIR
>>disadjustments and a wrong calibration as well as the Radar
>>malfunctioning implying the FLIR camera was pointing to the
>>ground level all the time without moving up and down by the
>>operator during the incident even that the elevation levels were
>>reading in the FLIR screen counters.

>I have and others have gotten emails from the FLIR manufacturer
>clarifying its operation which discuss how INFLIGHT calibration
>is needed. Whether the flight crew has done this is not clear,
>but the FLIR video proves the FLIR azimuth and elevation are NOT
>exact, but a number of degrees off (<10).

Mr. Smith. As I see that you insist on this point allow me to
ask you a question regarding an issue that I consider important
on this case.

But first, I suppose you are aware of the C26A flight altitude
during the incident? Just in case you don't all right, 10,500
fts. Now to the issue.....

Assuming you studied the FLIR footage as you claim, you may have
noticed the C26A left propeller at 17:16:33. The FLIR camera is
located underneath the aiplane. Do you know what would have the
camera's elevation angle been in order to film the plane's left
propeller along with the luminous object?

According to logic it must have been pointing upwards is'nt? So
at 10,500 fts. and the FLIR camera pointing upwards what do we
got? I hope you can comment on this.

As a bonus question, being the FLIR camera underneath the
airplane why the whole crew could'nt have a visual contact of
any of the luminous objects at any time even that all of them
tried thorugh the plane's windows?

But please don't tell me they were temporarily blinded or all of
them needed glasses.

>One thing still bothers me. Why do you think it is good that the
>Mexican Air Force released this data (without a definite
>conclusion)?

I may give you diferent answers according to the status of the
person in turn.

As an ufologist/ researcher this is the long awaited opening to
establish a direct information channel with the armed forces and
intelligence services to reinforce our study on this phenomena
in our country.

As a journalist to have access to goverment and military files
about all these incidents and have a more wide view of the
diferent perceptions on this phenomena not only from the people
but also from the official institutions.

As a simple civilian because this was a true act of democracy.


Santiago Yturria






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              Re: Skeleton In Brazilian Museum Might Be Alien -

From: A. J. Gevaerd - (Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 07:37:58 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 09:48:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Skeleton In Brazilian Museum Might Be Alien -


>From: Bob Shell <bob.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 10:39:26 -0400
>Subject: Re: Skeleton In Brazilian Museum Might Be Alien

>>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 08:19:28 -0300
>>Subject: Skeleton In Brazilian Museum Might Be Alien


>>Photos at www.ufo.com.br/index.php?arquivo=notComp.php&id=580

>It just looks like the skeleton of a deformed child to me.


Hello, Bob.

It certainly does. However, a few doctors that we consulted have
been very intrigued by the fact that, if it was a deformed
child, it has so many deformations that make it almost impossible
to be one human being.....

We are still gathering more info.


All the best,

A. J.








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              Re: Skeleton In Brazilian Museum Might Be Alien -

From: A. J. Gevaerd - (Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 07:43:13 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 09:51:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Skeleton In Brazilian Museum Might Be Alien -


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 13:30:12 EDT
>Subject: Re: Skeleton In Brazilian Museum Might Be Alien

>>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 08:19:28 -0300
>>Subject: Skeleton In Brazilian Museum Might Be Alien

>>Brazilian UFO Magazine reports:

>>Skeleton in Brazilian museum might be of an alien being

>>Photos at www.ufo.com.br/index.php?arquivo=3DnotComp.php&id=3D580

>>Report by Paulo de Carvalho Nogueira
>>Exclusive for the Brazilian UFO Magazine [www.ufo.com.br]
>>Translated by Eduardo Rado

>What photos? Where? Maybe I missed something but when I went to
>the English translation of the site all I got was a petition.

>Could you post the exact page where these photos are so we don't
>have to search around?

>Also, if they have a skeleton only 200 years old, there should
>be enough residual DNA material especially in the dental
>cavaties to extract and examine. Don't know if that had been
>done yet on this specimen.

Greg,

When you get to the opening page (the petition), on
www.ufo.com.br, click on the right up corner to get access to
the whole material in the site. It is where it says "Para
acessar o conte=FAdo regular, clique aqui".

For some reason the system is not directing to the exact page
when you first access it. Anyway, after you enter the site,
scroll down and you will see the photos, which are at this
address:

http://www.ufo.com.br/index.php?arquivo=3DnotComp.php&id=3D580

We are about to start DNA testing, but it is extremelly
expensive.


All the best,

A. J.








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              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 10:45:56 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 11:38:04 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 19:33:32 -0400
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 14:33:58 -0700 (PDT)
>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

<snip>

>Which FLIR lights do you find inadequately explained?

In order of priority:

#1.FLIR light is at 16:45:20, 16:45:27, 16:46:33 (all seem to be
the same light, it appears at other times too at various
magnifications).

Using Landsat IR images, I was able to match the location of the
lights with a known oil well flare set on the coastline at 92
deg, 10min, 10.94 sec long and 18 deg, 38 min, 39.81sec lat. I
have not seen this independently verified. If true, it would
confirm the FLIR ability to see IR at extreme distance.

#2 FLIR light at 16:51:27 to 31. I had first thought it was the
same as the 16:46:33 light but the calculations do not confirm
this (azimuth off by 40 deg). However, it does match the azimuth
of an oil platform in the Bay at 92 deg, 0min, 26.59 sec long
and 19 deg,22 min, 1.57sec lat (the NOHOCH-A platform). By
"match" I always mean within 1.5 deg of azimuth. Since this
seemed to be during the turn (?), we must consider the
possibility that error in the location data (infrequent enough
position update) may have caused the large azimuth error.
Personally, I doubt it, so its likely the oil platform.

3. FLIR lights at 16:45:08. They seem to be close to but not on
a river bank and are very bright. They show up during much of
the early footage, but the crew ignores them for some reason,
maybe because they are not airborne or moving? These lights do
not show up on the Landsat images. It would be nice if in situ
residents can drop by to explain whats there.

4. FLIR light at 16:44:59. From the Landsat image it seems to be
a riverbank location but the IR brightness doesn't show up on
the Landsat. It would be nice to have someone go to the site and
see why the bank was so bright. This may help understand other
FLIR lights.

5. FLIR lights at 16:42:55. Seems like lights in a town, but
Landsat doesn't show the lights. Very bright and ignored by the
crew (not moving or airborne). Again this would help us
understand FLIR. and maybe explain more of the lights.

6. FLIR lights at 17:15:09-17:15:34 seem like cloud tops and
Landsat data is not useful here.

7. FLIR lights at 17:23:00-17:23:42 cannot be explained and
Landsat data is not useful here.

8. FLIR lights at 17:26:32-17:28:06 are likely never to be
explained. They cannot be matched using Landsat data.

>... we don't have enough data to
>prove that that lights - at least some of them - were absolutely
>not the oil field flares.... a proof which _should_ be possible
>since (a little philosophy here) conventional objects obey
>conventional physics, i.e., it should be possible to duplicate
>the video (assuming the flares aren't turned off). Hence the
>"ufoness" of the lights must be considered tentative. The radar
>target, on the other hand, is (was) unusual.

I agree, the FLIR repeat flight would be ideal. But given the
circumstantial evidence, i.e. matching of individual flares as
well as their light patterns as opposed to just the general area
of flares (+-5 degrees), it is pretty convincing of some sort of
correspondance with oil well flares.

>This early version of the translation does not make it clear who
>said what. A more recent version does. Furthermore, there was a
>light that _might_ match the radar target that was detected for
>a short time _before_ the right turn. (The transcription given
>above consists of events after the turn when, as I said, the
>lights were generally in the direction of the oil field. The
>radar target direction was up to 30 deg away from the flir
>direction when the radar target was over Cd.del Carmen.)

Do you mean the FLIR light #2 I mention above?

>The most recent translations show that the radar target
>apparently suddenly appeared on the radar and the crew assumed
>it was a small plane that had just taken off from some "hidden"
>runway or that it had been flying low and moved into the radar
>beam. The initial distance was about 5 mi (estimate) at
>16:42:20. (Note: the mileages have been converted from nautical
>to statute, except as noted below.)

>The plane turned 30 deg to head toward the radar target and the
>crew began a visual and flir search for it. By 16:42:50 the
>target was directly ahead of the C-26 at a distance of about 3
>mi. The plane was flying at about 230 mph and the radar gave the
>target speed as 86 mph (75 kt).

>30 seconds lated the distance was 2.4 mi and speed 75 mph.
>24 seconds after that the distance was given as 2.46 mi but the
>speed was still lower than the plane's speed: 111 mph.
>(Why didn't the plane get even closer to it?)

>At 16:44:04 the radar operator said that the speed changed
>rapidly from 130 to 328 and then 245 mph. All this time the
>distance remained the same.
>-16:44:15  Its speed had increased to about 223 mph
>-16:44:30  It was at 12:00 (directly ahead) at 2.4 mi
>-16:44:52  It was 2.4 mi ahead traveling at about 203 mph in
>      the direction 300 deg (essentially the same direction
>      as the airplane)
>-16:45:00  It was 2.4 mi ahead
>-16:45:45  The radar operator reported that the radar was
>      repeatedly showing the target at 12:00 with a speed
>      of 237 mph in the direction 301deg
>-16:46:42  It was 2.4 mi ahead, traveling along 302 deg
>      and the radar operator stated the speed as (166 kt)
>      190 mph but then corrected it to (207 kt) 236 mph
>-16:48:25  It was 2.4 mi ahead
>
>At this time the plane was about 48 mi from Cd. del Carmen.

>The radar information indicates that the target remained ahead
>of the plane at a fixed distance for about 4 minutes even though
>it's speed seemed to change somewhat during that time. The next
>data on the radar target was recorded after the right turn. The
>target and the plane had been traveling northwest (about 300
>azimuth) before the turn. After the turn the plane traveled
>first due east and then east-northeast (82 azimuth) so, after
>the turn the C-26 and the object were traveling in nearly
>opposite directions.

>-16:53:12 It was now behind the plane at 7:00, 12 mi away and
>      traveling at about 380 mph, according to the radar,
>      in the direction 2-8-3.
>-16:55:45 It was near the end of the radar range, 37 mi away
>      (31.8 nm)
>-16:56:08 It was a few miles from Carmen
>-16:56:17 It was one or two miles from Carmen
>-16:56:26 It was not on the radar screen but the distance readout
>      shows 43 mi (37 nm)
>-16:56:28 It was over Carmen, which was about 48 mi behind the
>      plane and about -150 deg azimuth relative to the
>      direction of the plane. (The FLIR light detected at this
>      time was at an azimuth of about -130 deg azimuth. Hence
>      it probably was not the radar target. )
>-16:56:50 The target was lost.
>-16:57:03 The radar operator reported "It's passing by Carmen. It
>      is still there."
>-16:57:19 The radar operator reported "It seems to be turning."
>      Then radar lost it.

>Estimates of the speed of the target _after_ the plane turned to the
>right show values over 350 mph.

>The radar target is unusual for the following major reason: it
>was not seen visually nor by the flir even though it was only a
>little over 2 miles away. Yet the radar was able to pick it up
>and track it to a distance of about 47 miles. A crude estimate
>based on the published sensitivity of that radar suggests that
>the radar cross-section was many square meters. That suggests
>that the object reflecting the radar was itself meters in size.
>So why wasn't it seen? If another plane, then why didn't it
>generate any heat? We don't have any flying object capable of
>hundreds of mph speed that doesn't generate some heat (and has
>some size).

>As for the seemingly random speed changes, _perhaps_ that can be
>attributed to the radar which can't "see" anything closer than
>about 2 miles because of its pulse length. However, the speedup
>of the object _after_ the plane turned to the right seems
>unusual to me. For at least 4 minutes it paced the plane, hardly
>an indication of an effort to avoid the plane. And then after
>the plane was no longer chasing it, it "put the pedal to the
>metal" and may have reached a speed twice that of the C-26
>before going off the radar over Carmen city. Was this object
>"playing" with the surveillance plane?

Yes, it does seem like there are oddities about this
light/radar. It would have been nice in the military
investigation if they had taken the blackbox data of the
aircraft data. It would be nice to understand the radar error
sources and have some correlating radar data from separate
sources.


Thanks for the extra infomation/update!









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   Oct > Oct 7

                         UK UFO TV Show May Be Bogus

From: Matthew Williams <truthsee.nul>
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 16:59:16 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 16:39:33 -0400
Subject: UK UFO TV Show May Be Bogus


Warning to UFO researchers and abduction experiencers. Granada
TV are making a show called the Paul O Grady show. They are
telling people that this a serious show which will not make fun
of the people taking part.

They were very cagey with me over the phone, and said they did
not want experts on. Then I revealled that I knew that Paul O
Grady was none other than Lilly Savage who is a drag queen
comedy entertainer who is very well known but only in his woman
persona. When I stated that this was likely to be a wind up show
just like all of the rest of Mr O Grady's shows the production
assistant was keen to end the call!

So be carefull anyone out there, this program is very likely to
be damagaing to the subject or a wind up and piss take on the
guests who are gullible enough to go on.


ATB

Matthew Williams









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              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 12:25:29 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 16:46:59 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: Santiago Yturria <syturria.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 02:16:19 -0500
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 06:26:14 -0700 (PDT)
>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>But first, I suppose you are aware of the C26A flight altitude
>during the incident? Just in case you don't all right, 10,500
>fts. Now to the issue.....

Of course I know the altitude. I could not do any of the
calculations to correlate targets without it! But you are
too sanguine that there is one altitude. I am sure that
this is just the typical/average altitude during the video.
If only the military investigation had downloaded the
aircraft's blackbox and gotten a readout of all the
accurate data we need.

>Assuming you studied the FLIR footage as you claim, you may have
>noticed the C26A left propeller at 17:16:33. The FLIR camera is
>located underneath the aiplane. Do you know what would have the
>camera's elevation angle been in order to film the plane's left
>propeller along with the luminous object?

I would like to do the calculation you suggest but I do not have
a model of the aircraft nor measurements of the FLIR camera
relative to the aircraft, nor the FLIR gimbal axes relative to
the aircraft. I am at a disadvantage, Sir.

I cannot guess at the elevation. Since the FLIR is looking
almost directly to the left (-95 deg), then you must be looking
at the front of the blades (?). No elevation angle can be
deduced to any accuracy. Even azimuth would be very hard to
deduce..It is hard to "calibrate" using such fuzzy data.

It has been shown by Dr. Maccabee and I have confirmed it
independently that both the Moon and Sun elevation can be
derived from the FLIR video and show a error of a several
degrees. Also, using the aircraft bottom as the reference, it
has been shown that the azimuth is also in error by a few
degrees. Also, I have used Landsat ground targets (airfields,
river banks) to obtain similar elevation and azimuth calibration
corrections.

The most important thing to realize is that due to how the FLIR
works, errors in elevation at 90 degrees and -90 degree azimuth
are likely to be very low. The maximum error is estimated to be
at the 0 and 180 deg azimuth angles. Also, based on FLIR
operation/calibration a positive error offset for 0 azimuth
would be a negative error offset for 180 azimuth.

>According to logic it must have been pointing upwards is'nt?

No. Sorry. Incomplete or inaccurate data.

>So at 10,500 fts. and the FLIR camera pointing upwards what do we
>got? I hope you can comment on this.

Note, I never claimed that this particular FLIR light is a oil
well flare.

>As a bonus question, being the FLIR camera underneath the
>airplane why the whole crew could'nt have a visual contact of
>any of the luminous objects at any time even that all of them
>tried thorugh the plane's windows?

IR is different from visible light. Even an aircraft engine far
enough away can generate a clearly visible IR signature, but be
totally invisible to the naked eye. Also, the FLIR magnifaction
far exceeds the human eye. Who can see something better, one
with binoculars or with the naked eye?

>But please don't tell me they were temporarily blinded or all of
>them needed glasses.

Nonsense.

>>One thing still bothers me. Why do you think it is good that the
>>Mexican Air Force released this data (without a definite
>>conclusion)?

>As an ufologist/ researcher this is the long awaited opening to
>establish a direct information channel with the armed forces and
>intelligence services to reinforce our study on this phenomena
>in our country.

>As a journalist to have access to goverment and military files
>about all these incidents and have a more wide view of the
>diferent perceptions on this phenomena not only from the people
>but also from the official institutions.

>As a simple civilian because this was a true act of democracy.

Don't you trust your goverment and military to protect you from
UFOs be they alien or other governments? Do you not see that
releasing this data without an explanation does nothing to
insure national security. Indeed, it is surprising that panic
was not generated. Fortunately, the standard "science"
explanations muddled this disclosure to prevent pbulic hysteria.

The military should be there to protect the public from hostile
events as some UFOs may be. To shrug and give the public the
data without any explanation seems kind of irresponsible. They
should have formed a team and analyzed the threat level and kept
analyzing it until they could say it was a threat or not. This
was not what they did. They "gave up" and left the threat level
as ambiguous. Even if they had just released the video and said
it was proven to be ball lightning, then that is better than
leaving the cause open. I don't feel there is a public need to
know all this data. What is the public going to do about it? I
should think the military is the group that needs to know about
the phenomena and the public can find out AFTER the military has
the situation under control. Obviously they do not have the
situation under control thus we should not get any data.








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                   Mutilated Cows In La Pampa Argentina -

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 12:57:45 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 16:49:04 -0400
Subject: Mutilated Cows In La Pampa Argentina -


INEXPLICATA
The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
October 6, 2004

SOURCE: Planeta UFO
DATE: October 6, 2004

MUTILATED COWS IN LA PAMPA


At the rural estate known as "Hucal", located to the south of
the town of General Acha, La Pampa, a total of 3 mutilated
Aberdeen Angus cows were discovered on August 6, 12 and 26
respectively.

The animals were missing their udders, ears, eyes, entire tongue
and showed mutilations in their maxillaries. The incisions and
the state in which the animals were found were similar to the
ones in previous cases and which totalled some 1500 beef cattle
alone in the years 2002-2003.

In this case, the owners presented a complaint to the police
authorities of UR III, headquartered at the locality in
question.


Translation (C) 2004. S. Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology (IHU)
Special thanks to Raul Oscar Chaves








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                  Strange Creature in Entre Rios Argentina

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 13:08:34 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 16:51:18 -0400
Subject: Strange Creature in Entre Rios Argentina


INEXPLICATA
The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
October 6, 2004


Source: Cadena 3 (Television)
Date: October 6, 2004

Argentina: Strange Creature In Entre Rios

A farmer from Argentina's Entre Rios province reported that "a
strange animal having quasi-human characteristics" caused damage
to his henhouse and had been seen prowling the farm-- located in
the rural department of Colonia El=EDa-- on several occasions.

The complaint was made at the Colonia El=EDa sheriffs' office by
Oscar Resteinor, who claimed having witnessed the strange
creature's presence around his home for some twenty days.

According to the "El Diario" newspaper in Paran=E1, the alleged
creature had yellowish hair of considerable length, claw-like
hands and left very large footprints.

Criminalistics personnel from the Uruguay Departmental Precinct
collected samples at the site from one footprint - between
human and  animal - which included hair and other elements that
would lend credibility to the claim made by the rural producer.

Police elements found, upon reaching the sight, several large-
size prints measuring between 6 and 10 cm long, and including a
"claw-nail" stuck to a tree trunk.

Resteinor stated that relatives and neighbors stood nightly
guard around the house after having ascertained that the strange
creature had ripped through the henhouse roof and killed several
birds. Some locals claimed having seen an allegedly "light brown
animal" of considerable size fleeing from the site.

Last Saturday, around 20:30 hours, one of Resteinor's children
saw the creature prowling around the henhouse again. Accompanied
by a group of neighbors, the boy pursued the intruder, but the
strange creature got away.


Translation (C) 2004 Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special thanks to Guillermo Gimenez, Planeta UFO







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              Re: Interesting Nuclear Propulsion Systems Site -

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 14:20:48 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 16:59:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Interesting Nuclear Propulsion Systems Site -


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 21:57:39 -0500
>Subject: Re: Interesting Nuclear Propulsion Systems Site


>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 17:51:48 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Interesting Nuclear Propulsion Systems Site

><snip>

>>The Orion Pproject  was really small potatoes compared to these.

>>Almost all of the technical reports were classified.


>Hi Stan, and Greg,

>According to what I read, Orion consumed 7 years and 11 million
>dollars. It was classified also until Dyson, et.al. lobbied for
>its declassification so funding could be sought.

>One program goal was a 125-day round-trip to Mars with 8
>astronauts and 100-tons of gear...while Apollo was still
>struggling with getting 3 men up in the nose of a ballistic
>missile.

>I don't think it is fair to say it was *really small potatoes*.

>The Air Force would have backed it in a second if it could have
>been turned into a way to kill lots of people. Without that, it
>was just a liability that carried the stigma of "atomic power".
>The project was rendered moot by the Test Ban Treaty.

>On wonders what you'd be up to now Stan, if the Treaty had not
>existed.

Mea culpa. I see 3 zeros were left out by me in my comments.

At GEANP we spent 100 Million dollars in 1958 NOT $100,000. That
is why a much smaller expenditure over a much longer period of
time was referred to by me as small potatoes for the Orion
Project. I was not overjoyed at working on the use of nuclear
weapons for propulsion. I found straight nuclear fusion far more
appealing and much less risky.

I worked on a large number of cancelled  R and D programs.

Maybe even a record.

Please pardon the gaffe


Stan Friedman








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             Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -

From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 20:49:01 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 17:02:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 18:43:12 -0500
>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

>>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 11:16:24 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

><snip>

>>>Yes, the agenda is that some UFOs are real, i.e. "True UFOs", so
>>>it is desirable to assert that at least some of the documents
>>>which support this idea are genuine. This is known as "Saucer
>>>Logic", the basic idea of which seems to be that you start with
>>>what you want to believe then work backwards, rather than
>>>starting with the evidence and working towards a rational and
>>>coherent explanation. For another example of "Saucer Logic"
>>>concerning the MJ-12 papers, see the item, "More on the new MJ-
>>>12 documents" at:

>>>http://www.martiansgohome.com/smear/v46/ss991010.htm

>>For those that went out to this link you will find an issue of
>>Saucer Smear dated in 1999. The issue was the reporting of Tim
>>Cooper failing a lie detector test, however because Tim is
>>protecting the source of the documents, this failure was within
>>reason according to the polygraph expert.

Yes, but you somehow forgot to mention Saucer Smear's question
about this, which was: "So _why_ did Cooper agree to answer
these particular questions, if he knew ahead of time that he
would have to lie?"

>>>And for a real feast of "Saucer Logic" absurdity see

>>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/apr/m08-015.shtml

>>In this one you will find that Harney was demolished by Dick
>>Hall. Dicks bottom line was: "John Harney ought to examine his
>>own hidden premises that are leading him quite logically to a
>>very dubious conclusion. I think he is being irrational."

Demolished? He doesn't even address the argument I was
discussing. What he writes is quite irrelevant to the topic. He
starts by saying that my comments about Budd Hopkins "show
clearly that he doesn't know the man". But I did not make
coments about Hopkins, or even about what people have said or
written about him, but about what he has actually written
himself, and I argued that much of it does not make sense. I am
not concerned about his personality, his social skills, or even
his motivations.

Then he says: "I have reason to doubt that he (or some of his
colleagues) have any understanding of logic or scientific method
either." Really? What reason? Not much logic so far.

He says that he was a formal student of logic. So what? I have
an honours degree in philosophy but again, so what?

Then he writes: "One can reason entirely logically and reach
totally false conclusions if he/she has accepted false premises
in the process. This can be an example of self deception."

Perfectly true, but it implies that I have accepted false
premises. Why didn't he say what they are?

Then he writes: "Another form of self deception can occur when
someone reasons illogically. For example, assuming that both "x"
and "non-x" are true at the same time."

Yes, but that's exactly the main point I keep trying to make
when I comment on the activities of the UFO abduction
enthusiasts. Some of them describe themselves as
psychotherapists, but insist that abduction experiences are not
delusions. They insist that they are real, physical events. When
it is pointed out that physically abducting people is a very
serious matter which should be brought to the attention of law
enforcement agencies, their usual response is : "Don't be
silly."

So if that's not a good example of saying that "x" and "non-x"
are true at the same time then what is?

>Thanks for your post. Dick Hall doesn't lose very many
arguments
>in my judgment. An admired student of logic, and an example of
>the best reason I have for engaging in forums like this. He has
>seen enough, heard enough, and held enough in his hands to have
>a firm belief in what those things are saying. If it is a leap
>of faith it is based on harder foundation than most leaps.

What harder foundation?

>Even a hardened skeptic must calmly comprehend that someone who
>has experienced the extraordinary through multiple methods, in
>multiple forms, from multiple sources, simply cannot ignore the
>implication of their totality. Even in the absence of one single
>irrefutable case, the skeptic must allow for the circumstantial
>to tell a story, whether he believes the story or not. If not,
>he is not a skeptic but an advocate. I find Mr. Harney in this
>category for the most part. He leaps in a direction near 180
>degrees from Dick Hall. But either argument requires a leap.
>While I lean in favor of the more speculative direction, I have
>not made that leap.

<snip>

The problem is that if you "lean in favour of the more
speculative direction" then you get to the stage of accepting
some UFO incidents as "true UFOs" and stop researching or
investigating them any further. A good example of this is the
Trindade case (which has been discussed at great length on this
List), which certain ufologists had declared to have been
thoroughly investigated and to be a genuine UFO, so there was
nothing more to be said about it. Case closed. They were
somewhat annoyed when even superficial re-examinations of the
testimony and photographs revealed numerous inconsistencies and
implausibilities.



John Harney








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                     Regulation Of Civilian Space Travel

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 15:06:02 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 17:04:02 -0400
Subject: Regulation Of Civilian Space Travel


Hello List,

Per a recent thread here on the List regarding implications for
space travel, and in light of the successful completion of the
X-Prize challenge, this article caught my eye:

http://tinyurl.com/62pqy


Thanks to Slashdot for the lead.....

Best to all,

Kyle







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               Like US In 50s Why Is India Experiencing 1000s

From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex.nul>
Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 17:42:18 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 17:07:58 -0400
Subject: Like US In 50s Why Is India Experiencing 1000s


Source: India Daily

http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/10-07i-04.asp
10-07-04

Like America In Fifties, Why Is India Experiencing Thousands Of
UFOs?

Researchers say India to become most powerful nation!

Sumit Chatterjee
Special Correspondent


Thousands of UFO sighting in Northern India near the Himalayas
is surprising many including the Indian Government and military
personnel. In 1940 to 1960 similar thousands of UFO sighting was
experienced in America =96 the major superpower with Nuke
capabilities those days. According to some UFO researchers India
is on the verge of becoming most sophisticated nation in the
world and the extra terrestrial groups are likely to contact
Indian Government if not already done! When a country emerges as
major power, these groups contact the Government to let know the
order of the Universe. For example some UFO researchers say that
India is being briefed on possible usage of Nukes and space
exploration.

According to sources, the five members of the Security Council
all know the order of the Universe. The extra terrestrial bodies
set the rules and dictate what these countries can and cannot
do. India is now in the map of would be powerful nations! These
UFO sighting will go up in the next ten to fifteen years and
Indian military will learn a lot of them and from them.

A group of Indian scientists here are pouring over a bunch of
photographs they took in the northern Himalayas depicting a
mystery object that could be either of the two but are nowhere
near cracking the mystery.

"The object was about four feet in height with a red balloon and
many white ones. It hovered around for about 45 minutes some 200
metres from us. We were curious to know more and took
photographs," said Anil Kulkarni, a marine and water resources
scientist with the city-based Space Application Centre (SAC) of
the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO).

He was part of the team that spotted and photographed the object
during a just-concluded study trip to the northern state of
Himachal Pradesh, bordering China.

While camping in the Samudra Tapu glacier region, 14,500 feet
above sea level, near Chandratal, Kulkarni saw the curious
object at 7.00 a.m. Sep 27.

"There were balloons attached to this unusual object. It had
'legs' but we could not see the 'hands'. It was moving closer to
the hilltop. The object started moving in our direction when we
started walking towards it. But when our porters made a noise,
it moved away towards the hilltop," he said.

The object remained stationary for about five minutes after
reaching the hilltop, then moved away in another direction
before it disappeared, he added.

"Interestingly when it was exposed to the sun, it turned black
and in the shadow of the hill, it became white," the scientist
said.

In all probability, he opined, it was not a balloon as it was
moving against the wind.

It could also have been a spy device, a possibility that cannot
be ruled out in a border region.

"It is too early to say whether it was an espionage device. The
photographs have been submitted to ISRO and only a detailed
analysis by experts can tell us what it was," Kulkarni felt.








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                          Secrecy News -- 10/07/04

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 16:46:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 17:15:36 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 10/07/04


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 88
October 7, 2004


**      DOCUMENTING INTELLIGENCE REFORM
**      A LOOK AT THE FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE SURVEILLANCE ACT (CRS)
**      WE GET LETTERS (FROM ANNOYED READERS)


DOCUMENTING INTELLIGENCE REFORM

Intensive congressional deliberations on pending intelligence
reform legislation have left behind a fairly massive paper trail
of committee reports and floor statements.

It is a bit hard to imagine anyone actually reading through
these many hundreds of pages of material, and it is not certain
that one would profit from having done so, but here they are.

No fewer than five House Committee reports (with dissenting
views) on H.R. 10, the House Republican bill on intelligence
reform, and a report of the Senate Governmental Affairs
Committee on S.2845, the Senate intelligence reform bill that
was adopted on October 6, can all be found here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2004_rpt/index.html

The transcripts of the Senate floor debates on intelligence
reform, taken from the Congressional Record of September 27
through October 6, are posted here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2004_cr/index.html

As previously noted, the Senate bill that was approved October 6
would require annual disclosure of the national intelligence
budget total beginning in FY 2006, to the disappointment of
some.

"I am still sad about the vote that was against the position I
supported with regard to disclosing the aggregated top line of
intelligence," said Sen. Ted Stevens (R-Alaska) on October 6.

A Congressional Research Service report on "The National
Intelligence Director and Intelligence Analysis," September 30,
2004, is available here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RS21948.pdf


A LOOK AT THE FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE SURVEILLANCE ACT (CRS)

Two recent reports of the Congressional Research Service provide
an updated, in-depth review of the Foreign Intelligence
Surveillance Act, the statute that authorizes domestic search
and surveillance for counterintelligence and counterterrorism
purposes.

"The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act: An Overview of the
Statutory Framework and Recent Judicial Decisions," updated
September 22, 2004 (90 pages, 400 KB PDF):

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL30465.pdf

"Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act: Selected Legislation
from the 108th Congress," updated September 30, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL32608.pdf

As a matter of policy, CRS prohibits direct public access to
publications like these.  As a matter of policy, Secrecy News
disregards the CRS prohibition.


WE GET LETTERS (FROM ANNOYED READERS)

One Secrecy News reader complained that a recent Congressional
Research Service report on U.S. special operations forces (SN,
10/01/04) "is factually incorrect on numerous points, such as
the number of SEAL Teams."

"The fact that you have included this CRS Report for Congress on
your site causes me to question the veracity of all other
information contained in Secrecy News.  Consequently, please
cancel my subscription to your news letter."

This is ridiculous, of course.  Secrecy News is responsible for
its own errors, but not for those of the CRS (if indeed the CRS
was in error in this case).

But with remarkable frequency, people complain to us about the
contents of official government documents posted on the FAS web
site.

**  One careful reader noted a questionable passage in the newly
posted, but already immensely popular Counterintelligence Reader
(SN, 10/05/04):

The CI Reader stated in volume 2 on counterintelligence during
World War II:  "Although Washington had ample information
indicating that Japan would make an attack on Pearl Harbor, the
utilization of this information may best be described as
casual."

"The words 'on Pearl Harbor' are at variance with the best
historical judgments, and will be grist for the conspiracy mill.
As if it needed any.  God knows what else is in there," our
correspondent wrote.

**  Another correspondent advised that an official 1995 report
on White House security that is posted on the FAS web site
misrepresents a 1974 incident in which one Robert K. Preston
stole an Army helicopter and flew it towards the White House.

We do not "correct" the text of official reports, but since the
writer, a former Maryland State Police officer, was personally
involved in bringing down the rogue helicopter and his story
checked out, we added a parenthetical annotation providing his
first-person account of the incident.  See the 1995 report here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/ustreas/usss/t1pubrpt.html

**  Secrecy News (10/05/04) should not have said that the
Justice Department shares CIA's bizarre opposition to the
disclosure of 50 year old intelligence budget figures, one
Justice Department official objected, even though DoJ attorneys
are vigorously defending that Agency position in ongoing
litigation.

"To not see any difference between attorney and client here is
to either not completely understand the process or to not look,"
the official wrote.

**  Finally, we learn that someone at Hill Air Force Base in
Utah disapproves of the FAS web site and has taken steps to
block access by Hill AFB personnel.  (Military users make up a
significant fraction of the 70,000 daily visitors to the FAS web
site.)

"I returned to work today to find that Network Security has used
SmartFilter to block the FAS website on the grounds that it
contains 'Political/Religious' material," a Hill Air Force Base
employee wrote this week.

"I'm not at a loss for words, I'm just not using a few that have
come to mind concerning this matter," he added.


_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

Secrecy News has an RSS feed at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood.nul
voice:  (202) 454-4691






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              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 22:07:47 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 17:19:25 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 12:25:29 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>From: Santiago Yturria <syturria.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 02:16:19 -0500
>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 06:26:14 -0700 (PDT)
>>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>Don't you trust your goverment and military to protect you
>from UFOs be they alien or other governments? Do you not see
>that releasing this data without an explanation does nothing
>to insure national security. Indeed, it is surprising that
>panic was not generated. Fortunately, the standard "science"
>explanations muddled this disclosure to prevent pbulic
>hysteria.

>The military should be there to protect the public from
>hostile events as some UFOs may be. To shrug and give the
>public the data without any explanation seems kind of
>irresponsible. They should have formed a team and analyzed the
>threat level and kept analyzing it until they could say it was
>a threat or not. This was not what they did. They "gave up"
>and left the threat level as ambiguous. Even if they had just
>released the video and said it was proven to be ball
>lightning, then that is better than leaving the cause open. I
>don't feel there is a public need to know all this data. What
>is the public going to do about it? I should think the
>military is the group that needs to know about
>the phenomena and the public can find out AFTER the military
>has the situation under control. Obviously they do not have
>the situation under control thus we should not get any data.


Mr. Smith

This is just too horrendous for words, so much so that I can
only presume you must be in the military yourself or you're some
sort of disinformation agent or you're playing some sort of joke
on us. But serious, you cannot be.

Hostile? What was hostile about Campeche? Your government has
consistently, for over 50 years, maintained that UFOs do not
present a risk to the security of the United States and
obviously the Mexican government must feel the same way. Do
yourself an enormous favour and go and read up about the history
of UFOs and sightings in Mexico before you put your foot in it
any further.


Stuart Miller

You sound exactly like the sort of individual who, if the
President told you to go and cut your right foot off, you'd go
and do it. Don't tell the public?







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   Oct > Oct 7

             Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 16:11:07 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 21:13:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 20:49:01 +0100
>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 18:43:12 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

>>>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 11:16:24 EDT
>>>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

>>>>Yes, the agenda is that some UFOs are real, i.e. "True UFOs", so
>>>>it is desirable to assert that at least some of the documents
>>>>which support this idea are genuine. This is known as "Saucer
>>>>Logic", the basic idea of which seems to be that you start with
>>>>what you want to believe then work backwards, rather than
>>>>starting with the evidence and working towards a rational and
>>>>coherent explanation. For another example of "Saucer Logic"
>>>>concerning the MJ-12 papers, see the item, "More on the new MJ-
>>>>12 documents" at:

>>>>http://www.martiansgohome.com/smear/v46/ss991010.htm

>So if that's not a good example of saying that "x" and "non-x"

>The problem is that if you "lean in favour of the more
>speculative direction" then you get to the stage of accepting
>some UFO incidents as "true UFOs" and stop researching or
>investigating them any further. A good example of this is the
>Trindade case (which has been discussed at great length on this
>List), which certain ufologists had declared to have been
>thoroughly investigated and to be a genuine UFO, so there was
>nothing more to be said about it. Case closed. They were
>somewhat annoyed when even superficial re-examinations of the
>testimony and photographs revealed numerous inconsistencies and
>implausibilities.

As usual, John Harney is in full spin mood. Anybody looking for
a serious discussion of Trindade - in other words, one that Harney
has no part of - is urged to go to:

http://www.parcellular.fsnet.co.uk/trindex.htm

for a full account of this still puzzling case and a discussion
of the various theories about it.


Jerry Clark










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   Oct > Oct 8

                          Strange Red Light In Sky

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 06:05:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 06:05:52 -0400
Subject: Strange Red Light In Sky




Source: The Trinidad & Tobago Express

http://www.trinidadexpress.com/index.pl/article_news?id=41658706

10-08-04


Strange Red Light In Sky

An unidentified flying object (UFO) or a divine sign were just
two of the explanations residents of South Trinidad were last
night speculating on after a mysterious red beam of light
appeared in the sky.

The vertical red line, according to some eye-witnesses, was
noticed shortly after nightfall. Residents in Barrackpore and
Penal reported the sighting to the Express newsroom. One caller
from Scotts Road, Penal, was concerned that "something red was
falling from the sky".

Other reports suggested that the "light" appeared to be
suspended and remained at a particular point, although it seemed
to be wavering in intensity at times.

As word of the "light" spread many residents came out of their
homes to stare up into the cloudy night sky hoping to see it.

The image disappeared shortly after 7 p.m.








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   Oct > Oct 8

              Re: Why Is India Experiencing 1000s UFOs? - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 17:50:56 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 07:57:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Why Is India Experiencing 1000s UFOs? - Boone


>From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 17:42:18 -0300
>Subject: Why Is India Experiencing 1000s UFOs?


>Source: India Daily

>http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/10-07i-04.asp
>10-07-04

>Like America In Fifties, Why Is India Experiencing Thousands Of
>UFOs?

>Researchers say India to become most powerful nation!

>Sumit Chatterjee
>Special Correspondent


>Thousands of UFO sighting in Northern India near the Himalayas
>is surprising many including the Indian Government and military
>personnel. In 1940 to 1960 similar thousands of UFO sighting was
>experienced in America =E2=80=93 the major superpower with Nuke
>capabilities those days. According to some UFO researchers India
>is on the verge of becoming most sophisticated nation in the
>world and the extra terrestrial groups are likely to contact
>Indian Government if not already done! When a country emerges as
>major power, these groups contact the Government to let know the
>order of the Universe. For example some UFO researchers say that
>India is being briefed on possible usage of Nukes and space
>exploration.

Could it be because India has a growing nuclear arsenal?

Seems like these things show up whenever we start setting off
big ass explosions. The shockwaves are probably shaking the
dining room chandelier in the underground alien bases.

Hey, wasn't there a UFO flap over Iraq when they started their
nuclear program and Iran?

Wonder if there was a flap in Red China when they got the bomb.
Guess we'll never know because their reporters admit they're
government sponsored.


Best,

Greg








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   Oct > Oct 8

               Re: Regulation Of Civilian Space Travel - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 18:07:16 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 08:00:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Regulation Of Civilian Space Travel - Boone


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 15:06:02 -0500
>Subject: Regulation Of Civilian Space Travel


>Per a recent thread here on the List regarding implications for
>space travel, and in light of the successful completion of the
>X-Prize challenge, this article caught my eye:

>http://tinyurl.com/62pqy


>Thanks to Slashdot for the lead.....


Now I know for sure we're going to be a space-faring
civilization because the magic word was spoken:

Regulations.

Ever notice how everything is regulated except stupidity. It's
the only free unregulated commodity left.

Sure, the governments can regulate space exploration but they
still can't unclogg the congestion on the 101 freeway.

I can see it now, space driver's licenses, registration
stickers, "Baby On Board" signs and stuffed animals with suction
cups in the window of every spaceship.

Not to mention 'Space Cops' who'll buzz about and can only be
found at the orbital platform "Dunkin' Donuts".

Of course there'll be taxes in space. As if micro meteors
hurtling at mind numbing speeds and galactic radiation weren't
enough for the average Joe and Jane to worry about.

There'll be space flying tests too. Spaceships with 'Student
Pilot' stuck on the top along with an ad for low cost space
insurance.

Oh and don't forget 'Space Rage' - I've just coined that one.
That's where one astronaut cuts off another astronaut in the
space lanes.

As a cartoonist I think in terms like this so forgive me.

I say we go ahead and regulate space now. Don't wait for any
safety features or such nonsense. Everybody get their 'Space'
license and the DMV or better yet the DSV (department of space
vehicles) could make a small mint selling 'Astronaut Licenses'.
We wouldn't use them for 100 years as slow as we are into
conquering space but the revenue could be put to good use for
more Earthly things like repairing the potholes on our roads and
highways.

Aw heck, just when I thought I'd figured it all out I'd
forgotten about 'Space Jackings'. That's where one guy steals
another guy's space ship.

Dang it! Then there's 'Drunk Astro Piloting' or DUIs and DWIs.

Man, space travel is getting more depressing as I go on.

Hey, I've got an idea. Instead of wasting all this time on
trying to regulate civilan travel into infinity because we
surely couldn't put white and yellow lines all over creation,
let's try to regulate us humans so we'd be decent enough before
going where no one has gone before.

Aw shucks, I'm on Errol's UFO List. Maybe I should have said
going where alot of beings have already been.


Best,

Greg








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   Oct > Oct 8

             Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 20:23:29 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 08:08:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 20:49:01 +0100
>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 18:43:12 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

>>Thanks for your post. Dick Hall doesn't lose very many arguments
>>in my judgment. An admired student of logic, and an example of
>>the best reason I have for engaging in forums like this. He has
>>seen enough, heard enough, and held enough in his hands to have
>>a firm belief in what those things are saying. If it is a leap
>>of faith it is based on harder foundation than most leaps.

>What harder foundation?


Hi John,

The best example I can use is Christianity. The leap... that
Jesus was the actual, metaphysical son of God... requires much
more faith than believing in the possibility that processes and
activities occur in our time of which we are unfamiliar and
unaware. That occasionally, someone happens upon contact with
one of these processes or activities, and talks about it.

The harder foundation in my mind is accepting the premise that
when one sees something that confounds his accepted truth, he is
best served if he allows for any possibility, rather than
presuming a mundane but misunderstood explanation out of hand.
Both are valid lines of reason and both possess distinctly
helpful aspects. I simply see a more firm foundation for the
more open-minded approach. I do not believe in it, but I admit
that I lean that way intellectually. I feel that I am becoming
more and not less convinced.

What I was commenting on specifically was your tendency in my
opinion to engage with the skepticism out of hand rather than
with a sense of curiosity. Skepticism is healthy and required.
Too much of a good thing however warps it into something less
than good. This is true of either side of the debate, but you
were the subject of the post to which I was responding. You
believe in a terrestrial explanation for every unique
experience. The faith required for me to believe likewise is a
leap I cannot make. We agree on a lot besides this. :)

<snip>

>The problem is that if you "lean in favour of the more
>speculative direction" then you get to the stage of accepting
>some UFO incidents as "true UFOs" and stop researching or
>investigating them any further. A good example of this is the
>Trindade case (which has been discussed at great length on this
>List), which certain ufologists had declared to have been
>thoroughly investigated and to be a genuine UFO, so there was
>nothing more to be said about it. Case closed. They were
>somewhat annoyed when even superficial re-examinations of the
>testimony and photographs revealed numerous inconsistencies and

My position has been clear in every post I have submitted.

I am skeptical of almost every UFO photo I have ever seen. The
vast majority that are available are obvious hoaxes or just
misunderstood effects, and a few are seemingly not these
things... But I think it is possible that some place there is a
great well- guarded archive of things that are obviously not
from here. Knowing who holds it would explain many things, if it
exists.

I am skeptical of the Roswell incident, because there is so much
oddly conflicting data mixed into the already truly odd data
that any conclusions are fraught with caveat after caveat... But
I think it is possible that the government could have knowledge
about such things and am at least confident that if the
government had information about such things, that it would keep
it as secret as possible for as long as possible.

I think that many many people have had experiences of abduction
or paralysis, or terror, for as long as man has been sentient. I
think most such experiences are physiological rather than extra-
terrestrial in nature.....

But I think it is possible that some of the folks who claim
alien abduction experiences are telling the truth.

If you can reconcile these statements, you understand my
position. If you cannot, I'm not surprised. I find them
difficult to reconcile inside myself. For me therefore, the
cautious route is to presume nothing, and attempt to grasp the
implications. Let the facts lead where they will, and expand
paradigm only when the solution appears airtight. Possibilities
without proof... my intellect salivates at that stuff.

You and I are not very far apart. I agree with many of your
arguments. There is just a line beyond which you refuse to go,
and for me that line is a little constricting, intellectually.

Again, both viewpoints are valid and defendable to a
point...just different.


Cheers!

Kyle








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   Oct > Oct 8

              Re: Interesting Nuclear Propulsion Systems Site -

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 21:26:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 08:13:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Interesting Nuclear Propulsion Systems Site -


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 14:20:48 -0300
>Subject: Re: Interesting Nuclear Propulsion Systems Site

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 21:57:39 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Interesting Nuclear Propulsion Systems Site

<snip>

>>I don't think it is fair to say it was *really small potatoes*.

<snip>

>Mea culpa. I see 3 zeros were left out by me in my comments.

>At GEANP we spent 100 Million dollars in 1958 NOT $100,000. That
>is why a much smaller expenditure over a much longer period of
>time was referred to by me as small potatoes for the Orion
>Project. I was not overjoyed at working on the use of nuclear
>weapons for propulsion. I found straight nuclear fusion far more
>appealing and much less risky.

>I worked on a large number of cancelled  R and D programs.

>Maybe even a record.

>Please pardon the gaffe

Hi Stan,

Thanks for the clarification. I now see your point. $100 million
in '58... that's a major hunk of pot roast.

It is a shame about the cancelled projects.

Fusion...truly the power of the sun... would seem the obvious
better choice. Small, safe, self-contained, self-sustaining,
portable fusion power sources may one day change the world.

I'm sure that the projects you were involved in helped in many
ways to advance the science overall. Good thing about science is
it

I think space travel is going to be revolutionized by some
breakthrough involving cold-fusion, or gravity wave propulsion,
or something. The roads all seem to lead to a new paradigm
emerging.

I could be just dreaming, though. :)

Best Regards,

Kyle







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              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 21:45:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 08:25:23 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 12:25:29 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

<snip>

>Don't you trust your goverment and military to protect you from
>UFOs be they alien or other governments? Do you not see that
>releasing this data without an explanation does nothing to
>insure national security. Indeed, it is surprising that panic
>was not generated. Fortunately, the standard "science"
>explanations muddled this disclosure to prevent pbulic hysteria.

>The military should be there to protect the public from hostile
>events as some UFOs may be. To shrug and give the public the
>data without any explanation seems kind of irresponsible. They
>should have formed a team and analyzed the threat level and kept
>analyzing it until they could say it was a threat or not. This
>was not what they did. They "gave up" and left the threat level
>as ambiguous. Even if they had just released the video and said
>it was proven to be ball lightning, then that is better than
>leaving the cause open. I don't feel there is a public need to
>know all this data. What is the public going to do about it? I
>should think the military is the group that needs to know about
>the phenomena and the public can find out AFTER the military has
>the situation under control. Obviously they do not have the
>situation under control thus we should not get any data.

Hi James,

Forgive my speaking up, as I fully agree with you on all points
related to analysis of this case. There is absolutely more
information readily available... through Dr. Maccabee's simple
suggestions. No definitive conclusion is possible based on what
is now available.

On the final point however, I take issue.

Your thesis is that the Mexican government, faced with an event
for which they could not ascertain a mundane explanation and
releasing this information to the public, acted in contradiction
of its responsibility to protect its people.

You further state that a more suitable course would have been to
provide the information to the military to "get under control".

I find this a fair estimation of what is happening here in the
US. The real UFO cases are swallowed up by the military under
the auspices of "national security", and when no reasonable
explanation is found, the matter is stashed away in archive
boxes to be found much later, if at all.

I would submit that this is the truly contradictory course. In a
democracy, full disclosure is supposed to be a given. When we
entrust our security to a group of men, we at least expect those
men to tell us the truth, and a transparent truth at that. A
true democracy provides for secret technology and secret plans,
but it does not provide for secret ignorance, or secret
inability to understand the phenomena.

If our government does not know what UFOs really are, they are
absolutely required to say so...exactly so we the people can
protect ourselves armed with the knowledge that our government
is not all-powerful. We deserve to know where our government is
strong, but we also deserve to know where it is weak.

Since our government has never stated categorically what all the
UFOs really are, two inferences are to be drawn. Either they do
not know and don't want to admit it, or they know and don't want
to admit it. They are obviously very interested in some of them.

In either case, the failure to disclose constitutes a complete
contradiction of the Constitutional dictates of open government.

We are left to our own ideas on UFOs here, and the ideas spew
forth with no comment from official sources. We get no answers.
We are potentially being visited and the government is
clueless...

Why do we not panic in the street? It is because the majority
believe the government does know, and is not telling. If this is
true, then everything is ok, but they owe us an explanation. If
it is not true, then our security is an illusion, and our
ability to do something about it is stifled because we don't
know that there's something to be worried about. Our government
keeps us ignorant of our vulnerability for our own good?

If Mexico has decided that it should not be a secret when the
government is baffled, and that when the government is baffled,
it pays to make it public and enlist the help of the governed,
then they have passed us on the democracy evolution timeline.
They're not all sheep wanting to be made to feel safe and
secure. They want, expect, demand the truth. Credit President
Fox and his mandate.

Mexico in this small instance, represents a quantum leap in
democratic theory over the peculiar brand of democracy practiced
here currently.

What other hazards are there that our government hides from us
because they don't understand them? What else is kept from us
for our own good...to prevent panic in the street? Is this
right?

Whatever the outcome of this case, the Mexican government has
done a remarkably good, right, and dare I say it...sane thing.

My two and a half cents worth... :)

Regards, and I applaud your excellent analysis of the case thus
far. If Dr. Maccabee's suggestions are enacted, you and the rest
of us will be uniquely able to test its accuracy. A rare
opportunity, that.


Kyle








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Oct > Oct 8

              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 21:45:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 08:26:42 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 12:25:29 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

<snip>

>Don't you trust your goverment and military to protect you from
>UFOs be they alien or other governments? Do you not see that
>releasing this data without an explanation does nothing to
>insure national security. Indeed, it is surprising that panic
>was not generated. Fortunately, the standard "science"
>explanations muddled this disclosure to prevent pbulic hysteria.

>The military should be there to protect the public from hostile
>events as some UFOs may be. To shrug and give the public the
>data without any explanation seems kind of irresponsible. They
>should have formed a team and analyzed the threat level and kept
>analyzing it until they could say it was a threat or not. This
>was not what they did. They "gave up" and left the threat level
>as ambiguous. Even if they had just released the video and said
>it was proven to be ball lightning, then that is better than
>leaving the cause open. I don't feel there is a public need to
>know all this data. What is the public going to do about it? I
>should think the military is the group that needs to know about
>the phenomena and the public can find out AFTER the military has
>the situation under control. Obviously they do not have the
>situation under control thus we should not get any data.

Hi James,

Forgive my speaking up, as I fully agree with you on all points
related to analysis of this case. There is absolutely more
information readily available... through Dr. Maccabee's simple
suggestions. No definitive conclusion is possible based on what
is now available.

On the final point however, I take issue.

Your thesis is that the Mexican government, faced with an event
for which they could not ascertain a mundane explanation and
releasing this information to the public, acted in contradiction
of its responsibility to protect its people.

You further state that a more suitable course would have been to
provide the information to the military to "get under control".

I find this a fair estimation of what is happening here in the
US. The real UFO cases are swallowed up by the military under
the auspices of "national security", and when no reasonable
explanation is found, the matter is stashed away in archive
boxes to be found much later, if at all.

I would submit that this is the truly contradictory course. In a
democracy, full disclosure is supposed to be a given. When we
entrust our security to a group of men, we at least expect those
men to tell us the truth, and a transparent truth at that. A
true democracy provides for secret technology and secret plans,
but it does not provide for secret ignorance, or secret
inability to understand the phenomena.

If our government does not know what UFOs really are, they are
absolutely required to say so...exactly so we the people can
protect ourselves armed with the knowledge that our government
is not all-powerful. We deserve to know where our government is
strong, but we also deserve to know where it is weak.

Since our government has never stated categorically what all the
UFOs really are, two inferences are to be drawn. Either they do
not know and don't want to admit it, or they know and don't want
to admit it. They are obviously very interested in some of them.

In either case, the failure to disclose constitutes a complete
contradiction of the Constitutional dictates of open government.

We are left to our own ideas on UFOs here, and the ideas spew
forth with no comment from official sources. We get no answers.
We are potentially being visited and the government is
clueless...

Why do we not panic in the street? It is because the majority
believe the government does know, and is not telling. If this is
true, then everything is ok, but they owe us an explanation. If
it is not true, then our security is an illusion, and our
ability to do something about it is stifled because we don't
know that there's something to be worried about. Our government
keeps us ignorant of our vulnerability for our own good?

If Mexico has decided that it should not be a secret when the
government is baffled, and that when the government is baffled,
it pays to make it public and enlist the help of the governed,
then they have passed us on the democracy evolution timeline.
They're not all sheep wanting to be made to feel safe and
secure. They want, expect, demand the truth. Credit President
Fox and his mandate.

Mexico in this small instance, represents a quantum leap in
democratic theory over the peculiar brand of democracy practiced
here currently.

What other hazards are there that our government hides from us
because they don't understand them? What else is kept from us
for our own good...to prevent panic in the street? Is this
right?

Whatever the outcome of this case, the Mexican government has
done a remarkably good, right, and dare I say it...sane thing.

My two and a half cents worth... :)

Regards, and I applaud your excellent analysis of the case thus
far. If Dr. Maccabee's suggestions are enacted, you and the rest
of us will be uniquely able to test its accuracy. A rare
opportunity, that.


Kyle








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Oct > Oct 8

              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 09:43:31 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 11:14:45 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 22:07:47 +0100 (BST)
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 12:25:29 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>Don't you trust your goverment and military to protect you
>>from UFOs be they alien or other governments? Do you not see
>>that releasing this data without an explanation does nothing
>>to insure national security. Indeed, it is surprising that
>>panic was not generated. Fortunately, the standard "science"
>>explanations muddled this disclosure to prevent pbulic
>>hysteria.

>>The military should be there to protect the public from
>>hostile events as some UFOs may be. To shrug and give the
>>public the data without any explanation seems kind of
>>irresponsible. They should have formed a team and analyzed the
>>threat level and kept analyzing it until they could say it was
>>a threat or not. This was not what they did. They "gave up"
>>and left the threat level as ambiguous. Even if they had just
>>released the video and said it was proven to be ball
>>lightning, then that is better than leaving the cause open. I
>>don't feel there is a public need to know all this data. What
>>is the public going to do about it? I should think the
>>military is the group that needs to know about
>>the phenomena and the public can find out AFTER the military
>>has the situation under control. Obviously they do not have
>>the situation under control thus we should not get any data.

>This is just too horrendous for words, so much so that I can
>only presume you must be in the military yourself or you're some
>sort of disinformation agent or you're playing some sort of joke
>on us. But serious, you cannot be.

Yes, I was a little hesitant to make the above statement because
it is not popular at all with UFOlogists. I am not military, I
am just a guy, hopefully with as much "regular guyness" like
yourself. I suppose there might be disinformation going on in
the world on just about everything, but it certainly is a murky
thing to try to pierce. For instance, how can I say that the
release of the FLIR video was not part of a disinformation
campaign to damage the reputations and credibility of the UFO
community and the UFO "concept" in general. I mean, if I was
suspicious of everything the military or governement does then
that must be a distinct possiblity. I think it is a possibility
but I rather just look at the evidence and try to make heads or
tails of it.

So in summary, I am serious.

>Hostile? What was hostile about Campeche? Your government has
>consistently, for over 50 years, maintained that UFOs do not
>present a risk to the security of the United States and
>obviously the Mexican government must feel the same way. Do
>yourself an enormous favour and go and read up about the history
>of UFOs and sightings in Mexico before you put your foot in it
>any further.

I am familiar with the "history" and the official stance of the
US government on UFOs. If the military, such as NORAD, could
show us their uncorrelated targets without giving away the farm
on their capabilties AND told us they are bolides or radar
anomalies, then great! I would be happy to examine the data they
provide. I do not think this was the approach of the Mexican
government (and if you can cite a report or article which I can
be elucidated I would appreciate it). Any unidentified object
flying over the airspace of a country must be considered hostile
especially post 9-11. I am amazed that the Mexican Air Force
could think thy were doing a public service by saying,
essentially:

"Hi everyone! We filmed these potentially hostile invaders but
couldn't be sure, I mean they didn't shoot at us or anything so
could all you experts help us! Here's the film!"

I am bursting with confidence!

>You sound exactly like the sort of individual who, if the
>President told you to go and cut your right foot off, you'd go
>and do it. Don't tell the public?

I really don't know what this is supposed to mean and how it
relates to this issue. Do I trust the military or government
COMPLETELY? No!!! But as a society we have delegated the
authority to protect our country from potential harm either by
foreign enemies with weird weaponry or aliens with same. This
was delegated to the military. Sure it would be nice to have
oversight, but do you want every person to make decisions on how
to protect the country? You would end up with 50% voting for
shooting down UFOs and 50% wanting to make peace with them.

In representative democracy, you vote in others to run the
government. Let them do their job!

Also, if the President told me to go cut off my right foot
because it would save _your_ life, then maybe I would do it!
Would you?








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Oct > Oct 8

                 Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 11:44:00 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 11:44:00 -0400
Subject: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof




Source: The Triangle - Drexel University Student Newspaper
        Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

http://www.thetriangle.org/news/2004/10/08/SciTech/Credible.Ufo.Witnesses.Not.Su
fficient.Proof-747233.shtml

10-08-04


Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof

The Iron Skeptic
By Aaron Sakulich


In the modern era, there are literally thousands of people who
claim to have been abducted by UFOs. They replaced the
"contactees" of previous years, who were usually happy to talk
to their alien friends. It was from the late 1960s onward that
UFOs began to take on a more sinister air.

Though they would have you believe otherwise, it is easy to
pinpoint the beginning of the abductee craze: Betty Hill. She
and her husband were driving down a long, dark road and were
"abducted". They described small, gray aliens with heads shaped
like light bulbs, the now common staple of pop culture.

Later, it was learned that Betty Hill had a previous interest in
UFOs and that the whole thing was a product of her overactive
imagination. Yet as soon as word of her "spacenapping" by "the
grays" got out, they became a common theme in American UFO
stories. I say American because of an interesting division: In
America, the aliens that abduct people are usually the small,
evil gray folks. In Europe and elsewhere, they are almost
universally reported as tall, blond and benign. Evidence of two
alien races vying for our attention or subtle indicator of
cultural bias of made-up stories? If you guessed #1, you guessed
wrong.

I would love nothing more than to describe in detail the
hundreds of cases I've read about and debunk them one by one as
the products of hoaxes, practical jokes, hallucinations or cries
for attention; however, it may be better to speak of them
generally. Let me be absolutely clear about this: UFOs exist.
They exist as strange atmospheric phenomena, classified
aircraft, weather balloons or rare weather patters. A person who
sees a UFO is probably telling the truth, and the event might
have occurred. A person who claims to have been abducted by
aliens is lying, hallucinating, or on the receiving end of a bad
joke. There are no other options.

Generally, it starts like this: When alone somewhere, be it
driving down a dark and lonely road or sleeping alone in a
backwoods home, the abductee senses something is wrong. This is
called the Oz Factor. Animals act irregularly, senses are dulled
or sharpened, people do things they wouldn't do otherwise, time
slips by. Things just take on a dream-like quality.

Then something bizarre happens. If at home, bright lights shine
in through the windows and the house begins to shake. If in a
car, the radio fails and the engine dies just as a huge, glowing
craft appears overhead. Then the abductee either walks to the
UFO as if mesmerized, floats up to it by magic, is carried in
physically by aliens, or blacks out. When they get inside the
ship (or wake up in there), they are strapped to a table, and
creatures perform a series of medical tests on them.

They eventually black out and wake up wherever they had been
when they started (although sometimes their cars are many miles
away from where the abduction began), confused and frightened. A
lot of times they have had their memories of the experience
"erased".

The next day, they have the nagging feeling something is wrong,
and often they find strange marks, bruises or rashes on their
bodies. Strange things occur around their house, such as
poltergeists, strange noises in the night, animals acting oddly,
and so on and so forth. If they remember the abduction, they're
too afraid to tell anyone until a few days later. If they don't
remember it, usually it only comes out during hypnosis sessions.

It's interesting to note that the abductee may have a long
record of reporting ghosts, levitating, being a psychic or other
paranormal phenomena. UFO enthusiasts claim this to be a sign
that strange occurrences happen to these people throughout their
lives for some special reason. I say it's evidence that their
insanity is not a recent thing, but a lifelong malady. Other
than physical marks, evidence of such abductions is extremely
rare, and although I'm no prizefighter, I'm sure it's easy to
rough yourself up enough to leave some evidence of your own.

These "cases" all hinge on one basic thing: the credibility of
the abductee. If you read books on UFOs, you'll notice that
every story begins with "a credible witness said that..." or
"there's no reason not to believe this person." I know you
expect a certain objectivity from me, but allow me a moment to
editorialize. When I was in high school, I had a friend who was
a pretty good guy. Got good grades, went to church, the whole
nine yards. Anyone would describe him as a credible witness.
However, he claims that he can open and close doors with the
power of his mind (which is impossible). I have a friend at
Drexel who is an all around decent person. Good grades, very
attractive, intelligent, sociable; everything you'd want in a
witness. When she gets bored, she goes to the emergency room of
the hospital and complains of various illnesses. The first three
times, her friends rushed to her bedside and stayed with her for
a day or two until she got better. The fourth time, we knew
something was up and didn't go. Instead of a couple of days, it
took her only an hour or so to recuperate, about the amount of
time she needed to figure out that we weren't going to pay her
any attention.

I don't tell these stories to illustrate my poor choice of
companions. I tell it to make this clear: These two people are
perfectly normal in every possible way and under any
circumstances would be considered "credible" or "honest"
witnesses. If they were to report a UFO tomorrow, surely the UFO
community would be delighted that such upstanding members of the
community had made a sighting.

However, once you get to know them, these two people are clearly
insane. I've never taken so much as a single psychology course,
yet I can easily identify that they are suffering from some
pretty advanced mental diseases. You don't need to be the next
Freud; this is common sense.

I tell this story to illustrate a point: Almost all tales of
abduction hinge on how credible the witness is. They have little
evidence if any, so it's basically their word. Since I
personally know several people that appear perfectly credible at
first glance but that I know to be stark raving mad, I hope the
UFO community will forgive me for not believing their analysis
of what is and is not "credible". Think about it. You probably
know a lot of people just like the ones I know. When you see the
phrase "credible witness" sneer. There's no such thing when
fantastic claims of extraterrestrial skullduggery are being
made.

I don't mean to say that all alien abductees are liars. Perhaps
someone slipped a pound of LSD into their coffee. Perhaps
they're schizophrenic and haven't been diagnosed. Perhaps they
were the victim of an elaborate prank. Perfectly normal, decent
people can make these claims and not be filthy liars. While I
want to make clear that alien abductions never, ever happen,
those that make such claims should not be mistreated. They may
believe what they say happened did, and through no fault of
their own are buying into this pseudo-scientific mumbo-jumbo.

For instance, this is a case that's not quite rare but not
common either: A woman stumbles into her home several hours
later than expected. She's shaking, terrified, as if something
horrible has happened. She's covered in bruises, cuts, and the
like. Eventually she tells a tale of being abducted by aliens
and undergoing bizarre and painful medical experiments. Doctor
visits confirm that she has been roughly mistreated and sexually
assaulted.

Does this mean that she was abducted by aliens? Absolutely not.
Was she sexually assaulted? Yes. The mental and psychological
damage during a sexual assault is so great that, as a defense
mechanism, it's not unheard of for a person's subconscious to
alter the experience into something more palatable to the
victim. This doesn't happen all the time, and it's not any black
mark against the victim. It is, however, several billion times
more likely to occur than being kidnapped by aliens.

This is just an example. If their story really is a fabricated
defense mechanism against trauma, this fabrication must be
uncovered to get to the true event, otherwise the person can
never be properly treated by psychologists. If the person was
the victim of a terrifying prank, this deception must be
uncovered or else real threats, such as post-traumatic stress
disorder, can arise from a false threat.

There is absolutely no hard evidence that these events occur.
While the stories make good ghost stories with which to spook
the young, and even myself sometimes, to accept them at face
value as so many do is both foolish and possibly dangerous for
the mental health of the "abductee". There is no reason,
absolutely no reason, to think that all alien abductions cannot
be explained as a combination of lies, hoaxes, creepy practical
jokes, exaggerations of mundane occurrences, psychological
issues or cries for attention.



Aaron Sakulich is a senior majoring in materials science and
engineering.








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Oct > Oct 8

                   Re: Gordo Cooper And John Mack - Oberg

From: Jim Oberg <joberg.nul>
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 09:33:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 11:52:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordo Cooper And John Mack - Oberg


>From: Gord Heath UFO*BC <gheath.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 22:25:49 -0700
>Subject: Gordo Cooper And John Mack

>Gordo will also be remembered as one of the astronauts who was
>not afraid to speak of his experience in witnessing the landing
>of a spaceship from another planet on a remote Air Force Base,
>when he was a test pilot in the 1950s.

>We can honor the achievements of Gordo Cooper and John Mack, who
>died tragically a week ago, by following in their search for truth

A search for truth should have already uncovered the fact that
Cooper never witnessed any such thing - his story, at least in
the later forms, was only that he had seen the film before it
disappeared. And THAT story, as investigation has indicated, was
significantly removed from the actual events.

I cut a lot of slack for anybody who puts his fanny on top of an
Atlas missile, so Cooper deserves the right to say whatever he
wants. My only cautionary message is that people seeking
historical truth ought to perform some more research, rather
than assume that personal courage is always a reliable indicator
of authentic story telling.

Good intro/overview essay:

http://www.edmitchellapollo14.com/wwwboard/messages/2885.html

"The Hunt for Cooper's UFOs" - 1984:

http://www.zip.com.au/~psmith/cooper.html

and

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1997/feb/m04-009.shtml

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1997/feb/m04-010.shtml

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1997/feb/m04-007.shtml

Cooper errors in McDivitt story- he couldn't even relate a
documented story correctly)

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Cooper+McDivitt+accurate&hl=en&safe=off&rnum=1
&selm000505103036.13656.00000615%40ng-bh1.aol.com

Confiscated 'Area-51' Photos  - his version inconsistent with
everyone else's:

http://www.space.com/sciencefiction/phenomena/cooper_questioned_000929.html

Cooper's business disasters - $millions lost, including his
own, and sadly, lots of money from people who assumed that his
space heroism made him a trustworthy financial advisor:

http://www.zip.com.au/~psmith/projects.html

AMAZON on 'Leap of Faith' - read the readers' comments

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0061098779/qid=1097189028/sr=8-1/r
ef=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-6217389-8238223?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Oberg's Letter to Paula Zahn  - Dec 29, 1999:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=oberg+STS+UFO&start=30&hl=en&safe=off&rnum=34&
selm=19991230143206.16052.00000087%40ng-fn1.aol.com


Jim Oberg








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Oct > Oct 8

              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 11:28:09 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 18:39:29 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 21:45:26 -0500
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 12:25:29 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>Don't you trust your goverment and military to protect you from
>>UFOs be they alien or other governments? Do you not see that
>>releasing this data without an explanation does nothing to
>>insure national security. Indeed, it is surprising that panic
>>was not generated. Fortunately, the standard "science"
>>explanations muddled this disclosure to prevent pbulic hysteria.

>>The military should be there to protect the public from hostile
>>events as some UFOs may be. To shrug and give the public the
>>data without any explanation seems kind of irresponsible. They
>>should have formed a team and analyzed the threat level and kept
>>analyzing it until they could say it was a threat or not. This
>>was not what they did. They "gave up" and left the threat level
>>as ambiguous. Even if they had just released the video and said
>>it was proven to be ball lightning, then that is better than
>>leaving the cause open. I don't feel there is a public need to
>>know all this data. What is the public going to do about it? I
>>should think the military is the group that needs to know about
>>the phenomena and the public can find out AFTER the military has
>>the situation under control. Obviously they do not have the
>>situation under control thus we should not get any data.

>I find this a fair estimation of what is happening here in the
>US. The real UFO cases are swallowed up by the military under
>the auspices of "national security", and when no reasonable
>explanation is found, the matter is stashed away in archive
>boxes to be found much later, if at all.

I don't know what you mean by "real UFO cases" being snapped up
by the military. In the past, people have been spooked by the
government minions into not talking about a case and taking
photos and debris into a black hole of investigation. In this
age, people can disseminate their "real UFO cases" on the
Internet. If the military doesn't have an explanation today for
a case, then some day they might. A certain level of trust is
required by the public that the military does its job. If the
public does not want to trust the various departments, then
feedback must be provided to their elected representative.

>I would submit that this is the truly contradictory course. In
a >democracy, full disclosure is supposed to be a given. When we
>entrust our security to a group of men, we at least expect
those >men to tell us the truth, and a transparent truth at
that. A >true democracy provides for secret technology and
secret plans, >but it does not provide for secret ignorance, or
secret >inability to understand the phenomena.

Full disclosure is not useful to our system. You state it
correctly that we must entrust these people, but you are wrong
to think that they must always tell the truth even when it
violates security. Also, telling nothing is another recourse,
better than lying. For instance, if the phenomena is a potential
threat, our secret weapons or psychologically useful, then
security interests would not be served by releasing the data.

We are not really a true democracy, we are too primitive for
that, but a democratic republic with a representative form of
government. So we entrust our elected representatives to make
decisions for us. They pass the laws that control the behavior
of the bureauocracy. So if the govenrment doesn't measure up,
send them letters or vote them out.

>If our government does not know what UFOs really are, they are
>absolutely required to say so...exactly so we the people can
>protect ourselves armed with the knowledge that our government
>is not all-powerful. We deserve to know where our government is
>strong, but we also deserve to know where it is weak.

If the government knows that UFOs are aliens but cannot do
anything about them, then what can you do about it with a
shotgun? How would you behave differently if the government made
this statement? Why do you need such a statement? You can simply
act as though they had made the statement. While it would be
nice to know the governemnt's weaknesses, if we know, then so do
our enemies. If they said all UFOs are prosaic, would you
believe them? Not likely. Even saying they are unknown is
dangerous in that it suggests a weakness in detection, imaging,
analysis capabiltiies, etc. Their statement that they are no
threat seems to be a lie to me, but what else can they say?

>Since our government has never stated categorically what all the
>UFOs really are, two inferences are to be drawn. Either they do
>not know and don't want to admit it, or they know and don't want
>to admit it. They are obviously very interested in some of them.

Really, they can't make such blanket statements. They can only
really assess threats (bogus though I feel their public
statement is). If they are our weapons, they would not disclose
them. If they want others to think they are our weapons, then
they would not disclose them. If they unknown, but they hope to
someday know what they are and be able to classify the threat
level of them, then they would not disclose them.

>In either case, the failure to disclose constitutes a complete
>contradiction of the Constitutional dictates of open government.

Again, the security of the nation is at stake. Should we have
full disclosure on NORAD tracking and spy satellite imagery?
This would expose our capabilties and put us at an unnecessary
disadvantage in the game of survival we have going on right now
on Earth.

>We are left to our own ideas on UFOs here, and the ideas spew
>forth with no comment from official sources. We get no answers.
>We are potentially being visited and the government is
>clueless...

Why do we need answers? Is it a selfish reason to just know the
answer to this age old mystery? We don't really need the
government to participate in that kind of thing. There is enough
data out there. People think that the government saying
something would answer it all. But its likely they have biases
and not all the data either.

The main reasons I see for us to know about this is when it
personally affects our lives. If you are an abductee or have
lost cattle due to this kind of phenomena, then I would be
scared witless first, then try to build my own defenses. I
wouldn't depend on the government. If they can't track the
things with NORAD and bring them down or keep them out, then
they can't do squat, so its left up to each person to defnd
themselves. Davenport's passive radar idea is an excellent start
in having an unbiased data source. Concepts to defend against
these things are also out there.

>Why do we not panic in the street? It is because the majority
>believe the government does know, and is not telling. If this is
>true, then everything is ok, but they owe us an explanation. If
>it is not true, then our security is an illusion, and our
>ability to do something about it is stifled because we don't
>know that there's something to be worried about. Our government
>keeps us ignorant of our vulnerability for our own good?

They don't owe us an explanation if it violates our security. If
our security is an illusion, what makes you think it would help
matters to let everyone know this? If the military has done the
best it can but cannot protect us against 1000+ year advanced
technology, then we are screwed. If they are just waiting for
the invasion, what are they going to do, tell us to get plastic
sheeting and duct tape and lots of water?

>If Mexico has decided that it should not be a secret when the
>government is baffled, and that when the government is baffled,
>it pays to make it public and enlist the help of the governed,
>then they have passed us on the democracy evolution timeline.

You are entitled to your opinion of course. I think it just
shows how lame the government is to pass the buck onto the
public when they have such lack of leadership and intelligence
that they can't answer the questions themselves (a blue-ribbon
panel, a Skunk -works, a swank team of Mensa types, who ever). I
mean its been fun analyzing this FLIR video, but it is very
scarey that a lowly guy like me can do something the 6 figure
types missed.

>They're not all sheep wanting to be made to feel safe and
>secure. They want, expect, demand the truth. Credit President
>Fox and his mandate.

The purpose of government is to create stability, either in
reality or in fiction.

>Mexico in this small instance, represents a quantum leap in
>democratic theory over the peculiar brand of democracy practiced
>here currently.

Rather, it represents one more sign of a government in tatters
with stability through poverty and corruption. The US has its
share of the same I am afraid, but it seems more stable.

>What other hazards are there that our government hides from us
>because they don't understand them? What else is kept from us
>for our own good...to prevent panic in the street? Is this
>right?

Alot. Some aren't even hidden. Global warming, genetic
manipulation of food, nanomachines, asteriods, antimatter in our
solar system, many diseases.  But it seems that panic is not
good for a stable society, so lets try to minimize it. Let the
non-governmental groups pose the problems and solutions and have
government address them. If it fails, then that's all you can
do. What are you going to do, start a new government?

>Whatever the outcome of this case, the Mexican government has
>done a remarkably good, right, and dare I say it...sane thing.

Well, all I can say is that they provided an interesting and
exciting video which it was nice I could finally apply satellite
images to and help explain. Never could do that before
(satellite images take too long to film to image a potential
travelling UFO).

>Regards, and I applaud your excellent analysis of the case thus
>far. If Dr. Maccabee's suggestions are enacted, you and the rest
>of us will be uniquely able to test its accuracy. A rare
>opportunity, that.

Thanks. However, I am satisified with the excellent
circumstantial results. I am not holding my breath for the test
to ever take place. I see no motivating force. Neat UFO stories
are more valuable than mundane explanations. Even the military
would look bad if it was mundane as oil flares.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Oct > Oct 8

              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 17:41:16 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 18:41:46 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 09:43:31 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 22:07:47 +0100 (BST)
>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 12:25:29 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>>Don't you trust your goverment and military to protect you
>>>from UFOs be they alien or other governments? Do you not see
>>>that releasing this data without an explanation does nothing
>>>to insure national security. Indeed, it is surprising that
>>>panic was not generated. Fortunately, the standard "science"
>>>explanations muddled this disclosure to prevent pbulic
>>>hysteria.

>>>The military should be there to protect the public from
>>>hostile events as some UFOs may be. To shrug and give the
>>>public the data without any explanation seems kind of
>>>irresponsible. They should have formed a team and analyzed
>>>the threat level and kept analyzing it until they could say
>>>it was a threat or not. This was not what they did.
>>>They "gave up" and left the threat level as ambiguous. Even
>>>if they had just released the video and said it was proven
>>>to be ball lightning, then that is better than leaving the
>>>cause open.

>>>I don't feel there is a public need to know all this data.
>>>What is the public going to do about it? I should think the
>>>military is the group that needs to know about
>>>the phenomena and the public can find out AFTER the military
>>>has the situation under control. Obviously they do not have
>>>the situation under control thus we should not get any data.

>>This is just too horrendous for words, so much so that I can
>>only presume you must be in the military yourself or you're
>some sort of disinformation agent or you're playing some sort
>>of joke on us. But serious, you cannot be.

>Yes, I was a little hesitant to make the above statement
>because it is not popular at all with UFOlogists. I am not
>military, I  am just a guy, hopefully with as much "regular
>guyness" like  yourself.

Your tone in this reply is different to your previous message.
The reason for my reaction is very clear to me. Intended or not,
you came over as being totally trusting in the military and the
government to be honest and truthful with its population and to
always do what's best for them/us.

Without wishing to descend into some dark conspiratorial rant,
the evidence shows that certainly, in the subject of ufology,
governments, with some exceptions, have lied and acted very
dishonestly and indeed criminally as well.

People in the States spend small fortunes and inordinate
ammounts of time trying to get hold of supposedly declassified
documents, only to be met with obstruction and hindrance.

That is one of the two main points about the recent Mexico case.
Unless it can be shown at some later date that the Mexican
government had some ulterior sinister motive for releasing the
film, then their actions are seen as ultruistic and in sharp
contrast to the behaviour of their northern neighbours. Their
actions shocked us, quite frankly, and raised hopes that others
might follow their example.

>I suppose there might be disinformation going on in the world
>on just about everything, but it certainly is a  murky thing
>to try to pierce. For instance, how can I say that the
>release of the FLIR video was not part of a disinformation
>campaign to damage the reputations and credibility of the UFO
>community and the UFO "concept" in general. I mean, if I was
>suspicious of everything the military or governement does then
>that must be a distinct possiblity. I think it is a
>possibility but I rather just look at the evidence and try to
>make heads or tails of it.

Although I accused you of possibly being a disinformation agent,
I think a little too much is made of this. Lets be totally
cynical and suggest that the recent Mexican sighting was a hoax
perpetuated by some government with the intention of what? To
let us chase our tails for a few months and then make us all
look foolish? Other than those folk who have put in a lot of
work, who's going to be put out? The public have already
forgotten the sighting and ufologists, well used to being mucked
about, will just shrug their shoulders and put it down to yet
more experience. There will be major disapointment, but what's
new? In the end we will all have had a jolly good time
discussing it and watching the film and arguing amongst
ourselves. Fabulous entertainment!

>So in summary, I am serious.

>>Hostile? What was hostile about Campeche? Your government has
>>consistently, for over 50 years, maintained that UFOs do not
>>present a risk to the security of the United States and
>>obviously the Mexican government must feel the same way. Do
>>yourself an enormous favour and go and read up about the
>>history of UFOs and sightings in Mexico before you put your
>>foot in it any further.

>I am familiar with the "history" and the official stance of
>the US government on UFOs.

It was the Mexican history of UFO activity that I was drawing
your attention to, not the American history. That country has a
special place in UFO history. So far, there's been no mass
stampedes. Well, none that have got out of hand.

>If the military, such as NORAD, could show us their
>uncorrelated targets without giving away the farm on their
>capabilties AND told us they are bolides or radar anomalies,
>then great!

The presumption here then is that it wouldn't be great if they
told us that it wasn't bolides but extraterrestrial craft
instead. What would your take on that be?

>Any unidentified object flying over the airspace of a country
>must be considered hostile especially post 9-11.

Then perhaps now is the time for the government of the United
States to change the tape. My comment about them declaring for
the last 50 years that they are not interested in UFOs because
they present no threat was of course meant cynically though as
I'm sure you know, that is indeed what they have persisted with.
So, any unidentified plane or flying object containing a person
of middle eastern extraction is a threat. Any flying object
possibly containing a life form from another planet isn't. Well
I for one can sleep better tonight then.

<snip>

>I really don't know what this is supposed to mean and how it
>relates to this issue. Do I trust the military or government
>COMPLETELY? No!!! But as a society we have delegated the
>authority to protect our country from potential harm either by
>foreign enemies with weird weaponry or aliens with same. This
>was delegated to the military. Sure it would be nice to have
>oversight, but do you want every person to make decisions on
>how to protect the country? You would end up with 50% voting
>for  shooting down UFOs and 50% wanting to make peace with
>them.

Nobody is asking for oversight or control. What we are asking
for is to be told about what's been going on.

>In representative democracy, you vote in others to run the
>government. Let them do their job!

Yes, but we don't ask them to treat us like idiots and to lie to
us when it is patently obvious something is going on up there.

Indirectly though, the slant of your previous post raises an
interesting point, or would do if there was a debate on about
how best to tell the people and what affect it all might have.
You would appear to want to follow a very restrictive approach,
presumably believing that such an acknowledgement of intelligent
life from elsewhere would send the world running for the
bunkers. Well, I can tell you from my own personal experience
that you would not get such a debate going on this List because,
stimulating though such a debate might be, no one is interested.
I've tried. We can't think that far ahead. We're more interested
in finding out from which thread this particular screw fell out
of from the saucer and then taking it to a laboratory and
testing it. Approaches to the question of disclosure and the
problems associated with it are frankly either of little
interest to this List or beyond the philosophical capabilities
of most regular contributors. Pity.


Stuart Miller







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   Oct > Oct 8

              Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 11:58:10 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 18:43:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof -


>Source: The Triangle - Drexel University Student Newspaper
>       Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

>http://www.thetriangle.org/news/2004/10/08/SciTech/Credible.Ufo.Witnesses.N=
ot.Sufficient.Proof-747233.shtml

>10-08-04

>Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof

>The Iron Skeptic
>By Aaron Sakulich

<snip>

>Aaron Sakulich is a senior majoring in materials science and
>engineering.

...Off hand, I'd say there's more to 'heaven' and 'Earth' than
is dreamt of in this undergrad's nascent philosophy... All the
same dismissing arguments re-invented as if they were made the
first time here.


alienview.nul-:=A6:-
   www.AlienView.net







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   Oct > Oct 8

             Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -

From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 19:41:59 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 18:47:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 16:11:07 -0500
>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 20:49:01 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

>>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents
>>The problem is that if you "lean in favour of the more
>>speculative direction" then you get to the stage of accepting
>>some UFO incidents as "true UFOs" and stop researching or
>>investigating them any further. A good example of this is the
>>Trindade case (which has been discussed at great length on this
>>List), which certain ufologists had declared to have been
>>thoroughly investigated and to be a genuine UFO, so there was
>>nothing more to be said about it. Case closed. They were
>>somewhat annoyed when even superficial re-examinations of the
>>testimony and photographs revealed numerous inconsistencies and
>>implausibilities.

>As usual, John Harney is in full spin mood.

I believe that any unbiased person who consults the Archive of
this List will agree that I am more "spinned" against than
spinning.

>Anybody looking for >a serious discussion of Trindade - in
>other words, one that Harney has no part of - is urged to go to:

>http://www.parcellular.fsnet.co.uk/trindex.htm

>for a full account of this still puzzling case and a discussion
>of the various theories about it.

Not a full account - that would fill a very large book - but a
very interesting and detailed examination by Martin Shough of
the points raised by a number of people and gathered together
and discussed by Tim Printy. I agree it should certainly be read
carefully by anyone interested in the Trindade case.


John Harney








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   Oct > Oct 9

                 Majestic 12 & The US History Channel Sunday

From: Ryan S. Wood <majesticdocuments.nul>
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 13:41:20 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 08:46:16 -0400
Subject: Majestic 12 & The US History Channel Sunday


www.majesticdocuments.com

www.ufoconference.com

Majestic 12 & The US History Channel - Sunday

This Sunday, October 10th at 10 PM ET/PT and 8 PM MT the History
Channel will air one hour documentary titled: Majestic Twelve:
UFO Cover-up? as part of their Conspiracies? Program Series. Dr.
Robert and Ryan Wood were interviewed for the program as well as
Stan Friedman. We at majestic documents.com were not informed of
the content or direction nor allowed to review the material for
errors and omissions and are unclear about other interviews and
opinions that may be presented.

I'm hopeful, that the program will accurately represent the
overwhelming credible evidence that the Majestic Twelve
extraterrestrial UFO program is real, ongoing and compelling,
said Ryan S. Wood, President of www.majesticdocuments.com.

Historically, network documentaries about UFOs have gone out of
their way to present a balanced view even though the evidence
does not warrant such fairness. I can only conclude they are
ignorant and fearful of being embarrassed or ridiculed. Said
Wood.

Majestic 12 Is All about Crashed UFOs

Eleven top investigators will present their latest findings at
the 2nd Annual UFO Crash Retrieval Conference this November 12-
14 at the Sunset Station Hotel and Casino in Las Vegas (888-786-
7389). Conference attendees can anticipate the latest hard data
on numerous crashed UFOs, off-world artifacts held in secret
government facilities, the strange truth behind the Roswell
controversy, presidential knowledge of UFO retrievals, UFO
secrets of the former Soviet Union and much more. The Conference
will also present for the first time ever a catalog of every
credible UFO crash known to civilian investigators--some 50
incidents in all, from a dozen nations.  See
www.ufoconference.com for talk abstracts and speaker
biographies.

This years conference speakers include investigative journalists
Jim Marrs and Linda Moulton Howe, Washington lobbyist Stephen
Bassett, British UFO expert Nick Redfern, presidential historian
Grant Cameron, Russian UFO insider Dr. David Pace, Canadian
researcher Don Ledger, filmmaker Paul Davids, author Peter
Robbins and forensic document experts Ryan Wood and Dr. Robert
Wood. Speaker abstracts: Speaker biographies:

Free Gift With Conference Registration

Registration:

Sign up for the conference ($159) before October 15 and choose
one of the following special gifts: The Majestic Documents Book
(200 pages), The Secret CDROM (complete 90 min presentation
about the documents and their authenticity), Last years
Conference Proceedings or a VHS copy of the 60 minute TV
documentary aired on the Science Fiction Channel called The
Secret.

If you need more information or would like to talk with me
personally please call 720-887-8239.


Sincerely,

Ryan S. Wood
Conference Chairman

rswood.nul
14004 Quail Ridge Drive
Broomfield, CO 80020
FAX: 720-887-8239









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   Oct > Oct 9

                   Re: Gordo Cooper And John Mack - Heath

From: Gord Heath  - UFO*BC <gheath.nul>
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 13:45:29 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 08:55:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordo Cooper And John Mack - Heath


>From: Jim Oberg <joberg.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 09:33:08 -0500
>Subject: Re: Gordo Cooper And John Mack

>>From: Gord Heath UFO*BC <gheath.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 22:25:49 -0700
>>Subject: Gordo Cooper And John Mack

>>Gordo will also be remembered as one of the astronauts who was
>>not afraid to speak of his experience in witnessing the landing
>>of a spaceship from another planet on a remote Air Force Base,
>>when he was a test pilot in the 1950s.

>>We can honor the achievements of Gordo Cooper and John Mack, who
>>died tragically a week ago, by following in their search for truth

>A search for truth should have already uncovered the fact that
>Cooper never witnessed any such thing - his story, at least in
>the later forms, was only that he had seen the film before it
>disappeared. And THAT story, as investigation has indicated, was
>significantly removed from the actual events.

>I cut a lot of slack for anybody who puts his fanny on top of an
>Atlas missile, so Cooper deserves the right to say whatever he
>wants. My only cautionary message is that people seeking
>historical truth ought to perform some more research, rather
>than assume that personal courage is always a reliable indicator
>of authentic story telling.

<snip>

Thank you Jim for your efforts to place my poor recall of
Cooper's alleged Edwards incident into proper historical
perspective. I should know better than to comment on incidents I
can only vaguely recall from second-hand references.

I do think his stand was courageous, even if he wasn't always
the most reliable source for information. From your website
research, it does seem he made efforts to clarify statements
that were mis-attributed to him.

I reckon Cooper is getting a chuckle out of this somewhere in
the wild blue yonder.







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   Oct > Oct 9

                     Re: Hopkins' Technique - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 00:44:46 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 09:06:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique - McGonagle


>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul>
>Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 16:50:24 -0400
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

>>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 13:38:28 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

>>Thanks to those who have responded to my posts. There are a few
>>things which I should address.

>>Firstly, to those complaining effectively that this has all been
>>discussed before, etc., the topic might have been discussed, but
>>as far as I can see, the specific examples of his technique that
>>I am critical of have not been:

>Then _obviously_ you have not spent enough time studying the
>relevant Posts/material that are located in the UFO UpDates
>Archives on the subject.

>Sorry, I just don't have the time to do your homework for you,
>Joe. You'll just have to plow through all the posts and ferret
>out the pertinent portions for yourself. I can promise you that
>it is _all_ there as EBK says, 'In glorious black and white' for
>all to see/read. ;)

<snip>

Hello John, List,

With due respect to John, in spite of spending a great deal of
time searching for previous posts alluding to the specific
points that I raised, I haven't found them. If John says that
they are definitely there, then I think I have to accept what he
says - I have no reason to doubt him. I do know that there is a
problem with the search engine, posts that I know do exist did
not appear in the results. Threads that I have checked include:

Nightwatch Online - Discussion with Velez
Budd Hopkins And The Big Lie
Hypnotic Abuse
Mad Max: Beyond the Blunderdome
Hopkins' 1996 NOVA Pre-Airing Comments
Abductee Files/Our Children

Plus a great many others, most of which were spurious returns
from the search engine.

However, If I can't find them, then presumably others are having
difficulty doing so as well. In light of that, it seems valid to
continue the thread - those that are tired of it don't have to
take part.

Regards,

Joe








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                     Re: Hopkins' Technique - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 01:00:03 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 09:07:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique - McGonagle


>From: Kelly Freeman Khfflsciufo.nul
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 07:30:59 EDT
>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

>>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 13:38:28 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

<snip>

>>1.Hopkins insistance that Ryan construct a story about the
>>alien image, in spite of the fact that Ryan clearly did not
>>recognise the image. This is an overt example of leading a
>>witness, surely? Furthermore, it isn't dependent on how the
>>producer edited the final programme, no matter how the show was
>>cut, Hopkins still did this.

<snip>

Thanks for the reply Kelly:

>As far as point #1 is concerned, Hopkins had every right to
>suspect something unusual was happening with the child due to
>the testimony of his parents, as outlined in Hopkins' response
>to the NOVA program. I would simply view Hopkins' technique as
>an attempt to "ferret out" information based upon what the
>parents of the child had told him.

In response to Kelly's assertion that the testimony of the
parents automatically gave Hopkins the right to "ferret out"
information, it is a lot more complex than that IMO, and I had
hoped not to drift into that area. Given that we don't know the
long-term effects that an induced belief in alien abduction may
cause, how can we know whether the cost/benefit equation works
in favour of the child in this situation? Also, I expect that
many list-members are aware of a very insidious illness known as
"Munchausen by proxy" or as it is preferred to be called here in
the UK "Fabricated or induced illness by carers". Although this
illness normally involves physical symptoms or descriptions of
symptoms, there are recorded cases of psychological illness
being fabricated or encouraged. There was a working party set up
by the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health to improve
the detection and treatment of such cases, the report can be
found at:

http://www.rcpch.ac.uk/publications/recent_publications/FII.pdf

I am not accusing the parents of any experiencer or the
therapists of inflicting any such illness, but it has to be a
factor to be taken into consideration when assessing reported or
suspected abduction of children by aliens. With physical
examples of this illness, it is usually very difficult to
detect. With psychological cases, it is even harder. There are
reported instances of collusion by both parents_and_children.
Under these circumstances, detection is nigh near impossible.

Looking at Hopkins' technique in the context of such an illness,
it is patently risky to say the least - without extended contact
with a family, there is no way for him to detect any evidence of
such illness.

>Furthermore, are any of us certain that the child didn't
>actually recognize the alien image, or was it just a case of the
>child not_ wanting_to_ remember the image of the alien? I would
>suggest that perhaps the child could have been in a state of
>denial not only due to the nature of the experience, but because
>of the possibility that his "captors" may have instructed him
>not to tell anybody.

No, it isn't possible to be certain either way, but which is
logically more likely - that when the kid shook his head to
signify that he didn't recognise the image, he had never seen
anything like it before, or the convoluted scenario that you
describe?

>I might also add that if the child had "made-up" a story, what
>are the chances that it would fit the common scenario of an
>actual abduction? If these particular points were made in an
>earlier post, or somewhere in the archives regarding this
thread,
>I must have missed them. If they were, they need to be
>emphasised again.

To be fair, it wasn't really a close match to the typical
abduction scenario. It was actually closer to my suggested
scenario of a child falling asleep on the floor and wakening up
in their bed.

>And, as with most everyone else on this List, I was deeply
>saddened to hear of the passing of Dr. John Mack, and may his
>family please accept my condolescences and prayers. May his soul
>rest in peace and truth, and may his pioneering efforts towards
>the understanding of the abduction phenomenon be heard
>throughout.

Please don't read anything in to my lack of expression of
condolence following the death of John Mack, I just thought it
would seem pretentious, having only ever seen him once.


Regards,

Joe








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   Oct > Oct 9

                     Re: Hopkins' Technique - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 01:11:38 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 09:10:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique - McGonagle


>From: David Chace <davidwchace.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 20:36:40 -0700
>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

>>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 13:38:28 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

><snip>

>>1. Hopkins insistance that Ryan construct a story about the
>>alien image, in spite of the fact that Ryan clearly did not
>>recognise the image. This is an overt example of leading a
>>witness, surely?

>The child apparently had no conscious recollection of the alien
>image, but it is still reasonable for Hopkins to seek further
>information about any subconscious memories or associations the
>child may have had with the image. As long as Hopkins does not
>give clues about what kind of story he is looking for, I do not
>think this can be regarded as leading the witness in the sense
>of contaminating the child's testimony. The child will come up
>with whatever he comes up with. Of course, you then go on to
>address this issue with points 2 and 3.

My issue really was that the persistence in using the image of
the Alien was in itself leading. It attracted attention to
something which the child seemed to have no prior knowledge of,
making it seem significant to the child because of Hopkins'
obvious interest in it.

>>2. Hopkins' encouragement of Ryan when the story starts to
>>follow a line that he wants it to take and Ryan looks to him
>>for some kind of cue, eg, the removal of a sleeping person
>>from their bedroom and Hopkins' remark "That's a good
>>story".

>It's possible, of course, that Hopkins always gives positive
>feedback of this sort regardless of what the child comes up
>with. Maybe that's just his way of relating to children.

>>3. Hopkins again overtly encourages a particular story-line
>>with his remark "That's right." in direct response to Ryan's
>>comment "I bet somebody took me". There is again no signs
>>of any editing of this segment.

>Again, this may just be Hopkins' way of relating to children,
>or, you may very well be right that the narrative was taking the
>direction Hopkins had been expecting it would so he offered
>encouragement. It is impossible to tell.

I would agree that under normal circumstances, it is desirable
and natural to provide encouragement. My criticism is that in an
interview situation, the interviewer needs to be hyper-cautious
that any encouragement is not leading in any way, and that
children are very good at detecting when something is pleasing
to an adult.

Interestingly, I discovered during my trawl of the UpDates posts
that John Velez conceded that Hopkins' technique was leading in
this instance (or at least a similar one?), at:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1997/jul/m20-013.shtml

He did however qualify his comment by saying that neither he
himself, or other clients of Hopkins' which he had spoken to had
been led by Hopkins. Perhaps this was just a bad example of
Hopkins' work, but unfortunately, it is the only example that I
am able to observe personally.

While I do not agree with Hopkins' methods, I do not doubt that
he is well intentioned - he really thinks that he is doing some
good. I am criticising his technique, not his morality. No doubt
witch doctors thought trepanation was helping their clients in
the past. Recently there was a trepanised skull discovered in
the UK, which appears to have been a successful and possibly
life-saving operation, though this is unlikely to be the usual
outcome of such surgery.

Regards,

Joe








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   Oct > Oct 9

             Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 18:48:10 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 09:12:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 19:41:59 +0100
>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 16:11:07 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

>>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 20:49:01 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

>>As usual, John Harney is in full spin mood.

>I believe that any unbiased person who consults the Archive of
>this List will agree that I am more "spinned" against than
>spinning.

Actually, I doubt it. My point was not to start a pointless
argument with you - your views are set in concrete and not
dislodgeable even by nuclear device - but simply to point to the
absurdity of your pretense about the state of the Trindade case.

Sort of reminds me of the wry advice of Vermont Sen. Aiken, when
he saw the quagmire that the Iraq - er, I mean Vietnam - war
would become. He urged the U.S. to "declare victory and go
home." That famous quote somehow came to mind when I read what
you were trying to do.


Jerry Clark









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             Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul>
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 22:27:32 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 09:14:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 19:41:59 +0100
>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

<snip>

>Not a full account - that would fill a very large book - but a
>very interesting and detailed examination by Martin Shough of
>the points raised by a number of people and gathered together
>and discussed by Tim Printy. I agree it should certainly be read
>carefully by anyone interested in the Trindade case.

Whenever I here the Printy word, I recall and listers will
recall the issues with Printy's math... i.e. 'Gee, I was able to
correctly duplicate how person x was able to do 2 plus 2 = 9, so
if I {meaning Printy} can duplicate it, the math is/must be
right.'


Cheers,

Robert








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              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 23:38:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 09:16:41 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 11:28:09 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

<snip>

>>>Don't you trust your goverment and military to protect you from
>>>UFOs be they alien or other governments? Do you not see that
>>>releasing this data without an explanation does nothing to
>>>insure national security. Indeed, it is surprising that panic
>>>was not generated. Fortunately, the standard "science"
>>>explanations muddled this disclosure to prevent pbulic hysteria.

Don't I trust my government? James, you must be joking.

>>>The military should be there to protect the public from hostile
>>>events as some UFOs may be. To shrug and give the public the
>>>data without any explanation seems kind of irresponsible. They
>>>should have formed a team and analyzed the threat level and kept
>>>analyzing it until they could say it was a threat or not. This
>>>was not what they did. They "gave up" and left the threat level
>>>as ambiguous. Even if they had just released the video and said
>>>it was proven to be ball lightning, then that is better than
>>>leaving the cause open. I don't feel there is a public need to
>>>know all this data. What is the public going to do about it? I
>>>should think the military is the group that needs to know about
>>>the phenomena and the public can find out AFTER the military has
>>>the situation under control. Obviously they do not have the
>>>situation under control thus we should not get any data.

You say that some UFOs may be hostile. This infers that you
believe that some UFOs may be alien or at least advanced enemy
craft. If this is so, on what do you base this inference? What
data can you point to which supports the thesis that any UFOs
have exhibited hostile intent?

>I don't know what you mean by "real UFO cases" being snapped up
>by the military. In the past, people have been spooked by the
>government minions into not talking about a case and taking
>photos and debris into a black hole of investigation. In this
>age, people can disseminate their "real UFO cases" on the
>Internet. If the military doesn't have an explanation today for
>a case, then some day they might. A certain level of trust is
>required by the public that the military does its job. If the
>public does not want to trust the various departments, then
>feedback must be provided to their elected representative.

Real UFOs is used here as one possibility, to illustrate the
folly of secrecy where UFOs are concerned. My statement could
have said the reverse and still disclosure is not counter to
national security. If the military hides info on UFOs, there
must be a reason.

>Full disclosure is not useful to our system. You state it
>correctly that we must entrust these people, but you are wrong
>to think that they must always tell the truth even when it
>violates security. Also, telling nothing is another recourse,
>better than lying. For instance, if the phenomena is a potential
>threat, our secret weapons or psychologically useful, then
>security interests would not be served by releasing the data.

>We are not really a true democracy, we are too primitive for
>that, but a democratic republic with a representative form of
>government. So we entrust our elected representatives to make
>decisions for us. They pass the laws that control the behavior
>of the bureauocracy. So if the govenrment doesn't measure up,
>send them letters or vote them out.

Full disclosure is not useful and OUR country is not a democracy
because it is not OUR system anymore, and the system doesn't want
or need OUR opinion anymore. Bush or Kerry... any real difference?
Dean offered something that did create panic... inside the beltway.
Dean had to be knocked out so the choices would both be safe.
Nothing too radical... team players. Everyone can applaud Nader
because he has no chance to win. You can safely stick up for the
little guy with Nader. And so it goes. Ignorance bliss... wisdom
folly.

>If the government knows that UFOs are aliens but cannot do
>anything about them, then what can you do about it with a
>shotgun? How would you behave differently if the government made
>this statement? Why do you need such a statement? You can simply
>act as though they had made the statement. While it would be
>nice to know the governemnt's weaknesses, if we know, then so do
>our enemies. If they said all UFOs are prosaic, would you
>believe them? Not likely. Even saying they are unknown is
>dangerous in that it suggests a weakness in detection, imaging,
>analysis capabiltiies, etc. Their statement that they are no
>threat seems to be a lie to me, but what else can they say?

If IBM couldn't build the next revolution, what could two guys
in a garage do with a few parts and an idea?

If Keck and Arecibo can't locate a new planet, what can a few
hundred amateurs do with home telescopes and PCs?

If the phones, radio & cell towers are out in a disaster, what
can a few ham operators do with antique tubes and homemade
antennas?

If NASA can't put men in space without them dying too often,
what can 20 people in the Mojave Desert do with rubber, paper
and glue?

Your logic would dictate that letting a condemned man know the
time and date of his execution would be cruel and inhumane. The
law says exactly the opposite. Would you slip into his cell in
the night and lop off his head to lessen his anxiety? Is this
right?

>Really, they can't make such blanket statements. They can only
>really assess threats (bogus though I feel their public
>statement is). If they are our weapons, they would not disclose
>them. If they want others to think they are our weapons, then
>they would not disclose them. If they unknown, but they hope to
>someday know what they are and be able to classify the threat
>level of them, then they would not disclose them.

The government cannot make such blanket statements. How about a few
blanket statements...

Mission Accomplished
No Child Left Behind
It's a tax cut for everyone
It will be a Cakewalk
We Know Where the WMD are
I am not a Crook

What history books and newspapers do you read?

>Again, the security of the nation is at stake. Should we have
>full disclosure on NORAD tracking and spy satellite imagery?
>This would expose our capabilties and put us at an unnecessary
>disadvantage in the game of survival we have going on right now
>on Earth.

You believe that the US announcing that they have no idea what
UFOs are would expose a vulnerability to our enemies? As I
previously noted, democracy provides for secrets, but only when
it is absolutely essential. Admitting that they have a little
info but still no definitive conclusion, and are willing to
share what they have with the community, perhaps with
sensitivity to some classified info, would energize the nation,
inspire world cooperation, set an example that ignorance is not
bliss.

>Why do we need answers? Is it a selfish reason to just know the
>answer to this age old mystery? We don't really need the
>government to participate in that kind of thing. There is enough
>data out there. People think that the government saying
>something would answer it all. But its likely they have biases
>and not all the data either.

This paragraph is logically incomprehensible. If our elected
leaders are systematically lying to us, we should know. If they
know something we should know, they should tell us. If the
government has information which would shed light, the data will
speak for itself.

>The main reasons I see for us to know about this is when it
>personally affects our lives. If you are an abductee or have
>lost cattle due to this kind of phenomena, then I would be
>scared witless first, then try to build my own defenses. I
>wouldn't depend on the government. If they can't track the
>things with NORAD and bring them down or keep them out, then
>they can't do squat, so its left up to each person to defnd
>themselves. Davenport's passive radar idea is an excellent start
>in having an unbiased data source. Concepts to defend against
>these things are also out there.

This is an argument against your own thesis.

>They don't owe us an explanation if it violates our security. If
>our security is an illusion, what makes you think it would help
>matters to let everyone know this? If the military has done the
>best it can but cannot protect us against 1000+ year advanced
>technology, then we are screwed. If they are just waiting for
>the invasion, what are they going to do, tell us to get plastic
>sheeting and duct tape and lots of water?

If we are screwed, is it your position that we are best served
the blue pill, lest we not enjoy our last days? An interesting
turn on representative republican doctrine.

>You are entitled to your opinion of course. I think it just
>shows how lame the government is to pass the buck onto the
>public when they have such lack of leadership and intelligence
>that they can't answer the questions themselves (a blue-ribbon
>panel, a Skunk -works, a swank team of Mensa types, who ever). I
>mean its been fun analyzing this FLIR video, but it is very
>scarey that a lowly guy like me can do something the 6 figure
>types missed.

This is an argument against your own thesis.

>The purpose of government is to create stability, either in
>reality or in fiction.

The purpose of our government is to establish justice, ensure
domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote
the general welfare, and secure the blessings and liberties for
its people and its posterity.

When protecting the people from anything, the end does not
always justify the means. When a representative democratic
republic practices deceit in the name of national security, the
supposed control we think we have becomes an illusion. Do you
feel safe with our current military-industrial-oil-legislative-
judicial system? Do you trust them to tell you the truth when it
counts, if the policy is not to tell the truth when it counts?

>Rather, it represents one more sign of a government in tatters
>with stability through poverty and corruption. The US has its
>share of the same I am afraid, but it seems more stable.

A government in tatters. An odd assessment.

>Alot. Some aren't even hidden. Global warming, genetic
>manipulation of food, nanomachines, asteriods, antimatter in our
>solar system, many diseases. But it seems that panic is not
>good for a stable society, so lets try to minimize it. Let the
>non-governmental groups pose the problems and solutions and have
>government address them. If it fails, then that's all you can
>do. What are you going to do, start a new government?

Panic stems from ignorance not knowledge.

>Well, all I can say is that they provided an interesting and
>exciting video which it was nice I could finally apply satellite
>images to and help explain. Never could do that before
>(satellite images take too long to film to image a potential
>travelling UFO).

<snip>

>Thanks. However, I am satisified with the excellent
>circumstantial results. I am not holding my breath for the test
>to ever take place. I see no motivating force. Neat UFO stories
>are more valuable than mundane explanations. Even the military
>would look bad if it was mundane as oil flares.

Satisfied with the circumstantial. Comforting perhaps.


Hi James,

Well, I agree that holding ones breath waiting for the tests is
not the wisest option.

Cheers!

Kyle







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   Oct > Oct 9

              Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof -

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 07:41:00 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 09:18:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof -


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 11:58:10 -0500
>Subject: Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof

>>Source: The Triangle - Drexel University Student Newspaper
>>       Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

>>http://www.thetriangle.org/news/2004/10/08/SciTech/Credible.Ufo.Witnesses.Not.
Sufficient.Proof-747233.shtml

>>10-08-04

>>Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof

>>The Iron Skeptic
>>By Aaron Sakulich

><snip>

>>Aaron Sakulich is a senior majoring in materials science and
>>engineering.

>...Off hand, I'd say there's more to 'heaven' and 'Earth' than
>is dreamt of in this undergrad's nascent philosophy... All the
>same dismissing arguments re-invented as if they were made the
>first time here.

Incredibly, I agree with Mr Lehmberg. A very poor effort.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm








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   Oct > Oct 9

                      New Electro-Magnetic Effects Maps

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 06:06:42 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 09:25:06 -0400
Subject: New Electro-Magnetic Effects Maps


Hello Everyone:

I haven't been ill or hiding, just working (as usual) on my UFO
sightings maps. I apologize if I haven't responded properly to
messages aimed my way.

Aside from landings and trace cases which we all like, I find
electro-magnetic effects highly interesting. Here is something I
can chew on at least, due to my electronics background.

Whether EME effects are intentional or just side effects
(possibly either or both) is immaterial for the moment. These
cases give us at least a small chance of getting a grip on the
physical properties of UFOs.

In general, I learned that EME cases were pretty rare prior to
the 1950s. From 1947 thru 1953, listings here average 5 or 6 per
year.

Then, Blammo! In 1954 we have 61! This falls back and another 73
occur in 1957. Relative quiet again until the mid 1960s, busy
years with 85 cases in 1967 alone. After another hiatus I see 81
in 1973. The years 1973-1978 were all high for EME cases, then
they petered out up to the present.

I found some oddities. For days of the week (all years combined)
I found the highest counts on Monday, Wednesday and Friday.
Tuesdays, Thursdays and weekends were the slowest. [ Shades of
College class schedules!] If these were college pranks mostly, I
would expect the opposite, i.e. M-W-F slowest (hardest classes)
and T-TH-Weekends highest due to free time.

To get a better handle on this, I created three
new UFO sightings maps, showing only EME cases:

North America:
http://www.larryhatch.net/EMENAM.html

South America:
http://www.larryhatch.net/EMESAM.html

Europe:
http://www.larryhatch.net/EMEEUR.html

The 3 continents have their own peculiarities as mentioned in
the brief text to the right of each map.

Please take a look if you have time, and point out any obvious
errors. I just put up the new maps pages and would like things
tidy before search engines come spidering. The new pages plus
other Thematic Maps are on this revised menu:

http://www.larryhatch.net/THEMEMAPS.html



Best wishes and thanks

- Larry Hatch








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              Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 08:40:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 15:07:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof -


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 07:41:00 +0100
>Subject: Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 11:58:10 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof

>>>Source: The Triangle - Drexel University Student Newspaper

>>>http://www.thetriangle.org/news/2004/10/08/SciTech/Credible.Ufo.Witnesses=
.Not.Sufficient.Proof-747233.shtml

>>>10-08-04

>>>Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof

>>>The Iron Skeptic
>>>By Aaron Sakulich

>><snip>

>>>Aaron Sakulich is a senior majoring in materials science and
>>>engineering.

>>...Off hand, I'd say there's more to 'heaven' and 'Earth' than
>>is dreamt of in this undergrad's nascent philosophy... All the
>>same dismissing arguments re-invented as if they were made the

>Incredibly, I agree with Mr Lehmberg. A very poor effort.


Dammit! I hate it when you do that.

The reader is reminded that this, even astonished, acquiescence
is a small loss-leader pursuant to merely appearing balanced and
rational for a future skirmish. I suspect, not altogether
sincere. Evidence planting, actually. Real irony given we're
going to shake hands on the other side of "all this." and pound
a healthy mead... me because being right won't matter, and you
because being wrong matters not. It'll _all_ be good!

And a few more of those for the guy that didn't like 'em... !!!

alienview.nul -:=A6:-
www.AlienView.net








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              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 08:23:43 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 16:13:37 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 17:41:16 +0100 (BST)
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 09:43:31 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>Yes, I was a little hesitant to make the above statement
>>because it is not popular at all with UFOlogists. I am not
>>military, I am just a guy, hopefully with as much "regular
>>guyness" like yourself.

>Your tone in this reply is different to your previous message.
>The reason for my reaction is very clear to me. Intended or not,
>you came over as being totally trusting in the military and the
>government to be honest and truthful with its population and to
>always do what's best for them/us.

I am sort of torn on the issue of trust in the government. The
idea of accountability appeals to me in that I understand,
through hard experience, human nature and its apparent
predominate tendency to be selfish and lazy and "do bad" and
maintain the status quo.

Look at the complacent culture at NASA that destroyed two
Shuttles. Look at the disfunctional culture in the intelligence
agencies resulting in 9-11. On the other hand, we have to trust
the government somewhat because of hope that since it is their
job to do certain things, then they SHOULD be doing those
things. Do I have the time to check everyhting the government is
supposed to be doing and making sure they are doing it?

The Environmental Protection Agency for instance is supposed to
regulate air discharges of chemicals by industry. They publish
copious data. Do I know the data is right? No. Do I think THEY
know the data is right? No. Do I think they have analyzed it
right in making threat assessments right? No. DO I trust them?
Yes/no. Since they are doing _anything_ I can assume it is better
than nothing. Also, the human tendency to "hope" makes me want
to believe that they are really doing their job. But, human
nature implies they are screwing something up.

Trust is a lazy way out of the problem for most of us. We
realize that it is highly unlikely to change the
system/organiztion/human nature and hope that the better
elements in organizations will somehow do the right thing. We
would like to not operate daily in fear, paranoia.

So I guess it just comes down to choice in the matter of
trust. So no further discussion is required since each person
must make the decision themselves.

>Without wishing to descend into some dark conspiratorial rant,
>the evidence shows that certainly, in the subject of ufology,
>governments, with some exceptions, have lied and acted very
>dishonestly and indeed criminally as well.

Yes, it does seem so. But I trust they are operating based on
national security interests. The good of the many outweigh the
good of the few.

>People in the States spend small fortunes and inordinate
>ammounts of time trying to get hold of supposedly declassified
>documents, only to be met with obstruction and hindrance.

I do not know the motivation. I can only guess that besides the
typical human tendency to be asses, it may be due to poor
document storage, filing, indexing.

Why not get data from the former Soviet Union? I am sure its
easier to get and just as trustworthy as the US documents right?

>That is one of the two main points about the recent Mexico case.
>Unless it can be shown at some later date that the Mexican
>government had some ulterior sinister motive for releasing the
>film, then their actions are seen as ultruistic and in sharp
>contrast to the behaviour of their northern neighbours. Their
>actions shocked us, quite frankly, and raised hopes that others
>might follow their example.

Yeah, it was surprising. But as I said, releasing video of
unknown/ possibly hostile invaders was dumb! Still, I appreciate
it from an analysis viewpoint because it was fun.

>>I suppose there might be disinformation going on in the world
>>on just about everything, but it certainly is a murky thing
>>to try to pierce. For instance, how can I say that the
>>release of the FLIR video was not part of a disinformation
>>campaign to damage the reputations and credibility of the UFO
>>community and the UFO "concept" in general. I mean, if I was
>>suspicious of everything the military or governement does then
>>that must be a distinct possiblity. I think it is a
>>possibility but I rather just look at the evidence and try to
>>make heads or tails of it.

>Although I accused you of possibly being a disinformation agent,
>I think a little too much is made of this. Lets be totally
>cynical and suggest that the recent Mexican sighting was a hoax
>perpetuated by some government with the intention of what? To
>let us chase our tails for a few months and then make us all
>look foolish?

The idea of hoax (or more likely intentionally putting out some
UFO video which could be easily explained, ultimately) would be
to create in the public's mind the meme that if this great grand
UFO video is explainable then _all_ UFO videos especially those
taken over Mexico city, are explainable. So, in the future, when
_real_ UFOs fly by, they are more easily dismissed. I am not
saying that this is what the Mexican Air Force did, but to be
charitable, it would imply snakiness of a high order. Othewise,
I am left with a bumbling Mexican Air Force, llike Scotland
Yard, that is hoping for a handout of answers by dumping the
vidoe in the lap of Sherlock Holmes.

>Other than those folk who have put in a lot of
>work, who's going to be put out? The public have already
>forgotten the sighting and ufologists, well used to being mucked
>about, will just shrug their shoulders and put it down to yet
>more experience. There will be major disapointment, but what's
>new? In the end we will all have had a jolly good time
>discussing it and watching the film and arguing amongst
>ourselves. Fabulous entertainment!

I do not think the public has forgotten about it. It captured
their imagination in a odd way. Sure it is on the "back burner"
of their mind, but when the term UFO is used, surely one of the
first associations is this video clip (the multiple ones, mind
you).

>It was the Mexican history of UFO activity that I was drawing
>your attention to, not the American history. That country has a
>special place in UFO history. So far, there's been no mass
>stampedes. Well, none that have got out of hand.

Yes, I am not sufficiently educated of Mexican UFOs.

Regarding panics, the only ones I could find relating to aliens
were in Chile in 1944 and Ecuador in 1949 (5 dead). In India I
seem to recall panics relating to UFOs. Basicly, no obvious mass
panics yet. But could this be due to the meme planted into the
society that they are prosaic phenomena?

>>If the military, such as NORAD, could show us their
>>uncorrelated targets without giving away the farm on their
>>capabilties AND told us they are bolides or radar anomalies,
>>then great!

>The presumption here then is that it wouldn't be great if they
>told us that it wasn't bolides but extraterrestrial craft
>instead. What would your take on that be?

Yes, that would be very bad for them to do. The reason is that
if they truly know that the objects are alien craft AND they
have no way to deal with them (shooting them down or shielding
against them), then this would truly have a major impact on
society (9-11 economic effects or Internet bubble would be
nothing!). The major message would be of hopelessness.
Personally, I think it amazing if they could fight >1000 yr
advanced technology which it is likely the craft would be if
they exist at all. If they could fight them, then why tell us
about it? Just DO IT! But they won't because they can't fight
them without blowing up the planet.

>>Any unidentified object flying over the airspace of a country
>>must be considered hostile especially post 9-11.

>Then perhaps now is the time for the government of the United
>States to change the tape. My comment about them declaring for
>the last 50 years that they are not interested in UFOs because
>they present no threat was of course meant cynically though as
>I'm sure you know, that is indeed what they have persisted with.
>So, any unidentified plane or flying object containing a person
>of middle eastern extraction is a threat. Any flying object
>possibly containing a life form from another planet isn't. Well
>I for one can sleep better tonight then.

Oh, I think they know the UFOs are a threat, if they know they
are aliencraft (or time travellers, or hyperdimensional or
angels/devils/ghosts or alien lifeforms). They have to tell the
public that they are no threat! What do you want them to do?
Say, yes these are a threat but we can't do anything about them.
Panic time. Stock market crash, etc.

>>I really don't know what this is supposed to mean and how it
>>relates to this issue. Do I trust the military or government
>>COMPLETELY? No!!! But as a society we have delegated the
>>authority to protect our country from potential harm either by
>>foreign enemies with weird weaponry or aliens with same. This
>>was delegated to the military. Sure it would be nice to have
>>oversight, but do you want every person to make decisions on
>>how to protect the country? You would end up with 50% voting
>>for shooting down UFOs and 50% wanting to make peace with
>>them.

>Nobody is asking for oversight or control. What we are asking
>for is to be told about what's been going on.

You can find out for yourself what is going on. Maybe you don't
want to know the truth after you find out. But if you can't
trust the government, then why do you want to know what THEY say
is going on? Based on an assumption that the government cannot
be trusted, if I were you I would just find out the truth
myself, if you really want to know. I am still not clear why you
want to know.

>>In representative democracy, you vote in others to run the
>>government. Let them do their job!

>Yes, but we don't ask them to treat us like idiots and to lie to
>us when it is patently obvious something is going on up there.

We ask them to govern. But they define the term and its scope
and if it means not telling us truths we don't want to know then
they are doing their job.

>Indirectly though, the slant of your previous post raises an
>interesting point, or would do if there was a debate on about
>how best to tell the people and what affect it all might have.

A good thing to layout.

>You would appear to want to follow a very restrictive approach,
>presumably believing that such an acknowledgement of intelligent
>life from elsewhere would send the world running for the
>bunkers.

Of no. If the government had made first contact and the aliens
were nice fellows who just wanted to do us a good turn, then I
am all in favor of disclosure/truth. I doubt the panic of such
knowledge would be very great. But although I know a little
about human nature, I know little about alien nature. Who knows
their motivations? If cattle mutilations and human abductees are
the norm for them, then they can take a flying leap! These are
hostile forces. That they might have affected nuclear sites,
damaged aircraft are bad signs. That they enter our airspace
without permission, with potential for triggering nuclear war,
was not nice. That they can run rings around us shows they can
flip us the bird and even rape our women if they want! And what
do we have, stone knives and bear skins or at best, HAARP and
chemtrails. We are certainly doomed if they are hostile alien
craft. Public disclosure should only occur in that case if we
have another Lewinsky situation with a President (not Bush
though).

>Well, I can tell you from my own personal experience
>that you would not get such a debate going on this List because,
>stimulating though such a debate might be, no one is interested.
>I've tried.

If the debate is just for debate sake, then yes it isn't
worthwhile. But is you want to generate white paper and back it
up with a psychological basis and sociological analysis and send
it to your elected reps, then that seems more productive and a
bunch of rants, etc.

>We can't think that far ahead. We're more interested
>in finding out from which thread this particular screw fell out
>of from the saucer and then taking it to a laboratory and
>testing it.

And having the screw conficated by the government or lost or
switched with a terrestrial screw or the lab personnel fired by
mysterious folk.

>Approaches to the question of disclosure and the
>problems associated with it are frankly either of little
>interest to this List or beyond the philosophical capabilities
>of most regular contributors. Pity.

No worries mate! At least we can chat about it. Maybe some
lurkers can be envigorated into posting!








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Oct > Oct 9

              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 09:20:24 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 16:16:52 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 23:38:24 -0500
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 11:28:09 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>Don't I trust my government? James, you must be joking.

No I am not joking. It does seem hard to trust the governments.
If I sound wishywashy on this it is for good reason and I can
only explain it as best I can.

How can you have peace of mind without trust? If I did not trust
that my world was "safe" thanks to my government/bureauocracy
then why would I leave home every day? I would just hunker down
in my bunker. Anyway, its not like we can do anything about
improving the quality of the government. Voting for candidates
that seem the same is dumb. Sending in letters to them
accomplishes nothing, unless I am a corporation/individual who
has made hefty campaign contributions. I have tried to change it
and given up because of the flaws in the system due to the
inherent nature of humans (which usually does not show up on
organizational charts or vision statements). Perhaps you have
some grand plan that can fix everything. Good luck. I find it
all very tiring.

Has the government screwed things up time and time again? Yes.
Have they fixed their systems through ISO9000 or continuous
quality improvement or Congressional mandate? No, although these
actions have been done. Humans and their foibles always get in
the way. It seems like it needs to be a multigenerational scheme
to fix the broken parts, but unfortuantely, based in the
stupidity/vapidity of the public (e.g. popularity of real-TV and
Howard Stern, etc) we seem to be going downward rather than
upward.

Even with the current messed up organizations in the goverment,
it is STILL their job to protect us from enemies (alien, or
otherwise). They get paid by the taxpayers to do this. There
should be congressional oversight to ALL these orgs. If you
really feel that they are failing to so their job, then go ahead
and lobby Congress. Davenport's passive radar should provide the
evidence to show that vehicles are invading our airspace. I
suppose other non-governmental data could be gathered to also
make the case that it appears that we are not being protected. I
am surprised that cattle ranchers have not lobbied like hell to
demand protection.

So , I have some trust that there are some people in the
organizations that want to do the right thing and hope they are
successful.

>You say that some UFOs may be hostile. This infers that you
>believe that some UFOs may be alien or at least advanced enemy
>craft. If this is so, on what do you base this inference? What
>data can you point to which supports the thesis that any UFOs
>have exhibited hostile intent?

I am not going to the books and do all the research to quote
cases/dates. If you need it, then maybe I can try to did this up
next month when I have more time.

For one thing if they are craft, they are operating in our
airspace, violating it, maybe without a radar reflection or
even with it, it may be too late because they are so fast, maybe
with radiation emissions that could harm commercial aircraft
passengers. So they can hit or cause dangerous evasive actions
by commercial jets. Longterm effects of exposure to "alien"
craft radiation are bad in some reported cases. Okay, this
covers just flying in the airspace.

Reports of affecting nuclear silo sites, landing and emitting
radiation during close encounters, human abductions, cattle
mutilations, showing up on NORAD radar and causing increased
chance of nuclear war, causing military jets to scramble and put
pilots at risk to intercept.

These are just cases I have read and I have not investigated
each one. But since there are repeated cases from different
observers, then this enhances the likelihood they are not ALL
just urban myths.

I should have thought it pretty obvious though that
UFOs must be assumed hostile.

>>I don't know what you mean by "real UFO cases" being snapped up
>>by the military. In the past, people have been spooked by the
>>government minions into not talking about a case and taking
>>photos and debris into a black hole of investigation. In this
>>age, people can disseminate their "real UFO cases" on the
>>Internet. If the military doesn't have an explanation today for
>>a case, then some day they might. A certain level of trust is
>>required by the public that the military does its job. If the
>>public does not want to trust the various departments, then
>>feedback must be provided to their elected representative.

>Real UFOs is used here as one possibility, to illustrate the
>folly of secrecy where UFOs are concerned. My statement could
>have said the reverse and still disclosure is not counter to
>national security. If the military hides info on UFOs, there
>must be a reason.

Yes the reason is likely that they cannot do anything about them
because their tech is too advanced.

>>Full disclosure is not useful to our system. You state it
>>correctly that we must entrust these people, but you are wrong
>>to think that they must always tell the truth even when it
>>violates security. Also, telling nothing is another recourse,
>>better than lying. For instance, if the phenomena is a potential
>>threat, our secret weapons or psychologically useful, then
>>security interests would not be served by releasing the data.

>>We are not really a true democracy, we are too primitive for
>>that, but a democratic republic with a representative form of
>>government. So we entrust our elected representatives to make
>>decisions for us. They pass the laws that control the behavior
>>of the bureauocracy. So if the govenrment doesn't measure up,
>>send them letters or vote them out.

>Full disclosure is not useful and OUR country is not a democracy
>because it is not OUR system anymore, and the system doesn't want
>or need OUR opinion anymore. Bush or Kerry... any real difference?
>Dean offered something that did create panic... inside the beltway.
>Dean had to be knocked out so the choices would both be safe.
>Nothing too radical... team players. Everyone can applaud Nader
>because he has no chance to win. You can safely stick up for the
>little guy with Nader. And so it goes. Ignorance bliss... wisdom
>folly.

You are wrong. If everyone was responsible and educated then we
could fix the country because it is by definition OURS. But I
don't think this is possible because WE have been neutered into
segmented opposing forces, thus OUR power is nullified. I
personally have no hope in our system because the public is
stupid (loves Howard Stern, real TV, sports, etc).

>>If the government knows that UFOs are aliens but cannot do
>>anything about them, then what can you do about it with a
>>shotgun? How would you behave differently if the government made
>>this statement? Why do you need such a statement? You can simply
>>act as though they had made the statement. While it would be
>>nice to know the governemnt's weaknesses, if we know, then so do
>>our enemies. If they said all UFOs are prosaic, would you
>>believe them? Not likely. Even saying they are unknown is
>>dangerous in that it suggests a weakness in detection, imaging,
>>analysis capabiltiies, etc. Their statement that they are no
>>threat seems to be a lie to me, but what else can they say?

>If IBM couldn't build the next revolution, what could two guys
>in a garage do with a few parts and an idea?

Did they need IBM to make a statement to get them to do it? No.

>If Keck and Arecibo can't locate a new planet, what can a few
>hundred amateurs do with home telescopes and PCs?

Did the amateurs need the professionals to tell them to do it? No.

>If the phones, radio & cell towers are out in a disaster, what
>can a few ham operators do with antique tubes and homemade
>antennas?

Does the government need to tell them to do it for them to do
it? No. Likely these guys would do the right thing despite what
the governemnt says.

>If NASA can't put men in space without them dying too often,
>what can 20 people in the Mojave Desert do with rubber, paper
>and glue?

Did NASA make some statement that made Rutan do it? No.

>Your logic would dictate that letting a condemned man know the
>time and date of his execution would be cruel and inhumane. The
>law says exactly the opposite. Would you slip into his cell in
>the night and lop off his head to lessen his anxiety? Is this
>right?

Why do you need the government to tell you to start exercising
your creativity? If they said something anyway, would you
believe them? If you think a disaster is looming, then do
something about it. Don't just wait for the goverment to save
you.

>>Really, they can't make such blanket statements. They can only
>>really assess threats (bogus though I feel their public
>>statement is). If they are our weapons, they would not disclose
>>them. If they want others to think they are our weapons, then
>>they would not disclose them. If they unknown, but they hope to
>>someday know what they are and be able to classify the threat
>>level of them, then they would not disclose them.

>The government cannot make such blanket statements. How about a few
>blanket statements...

>Mission Accomplished
>No Child Left Behind
>It's a tax cut for everyone
>It will be a Cakewalk
>We Know Where the WMD are
>I am not a Crook

>What history books and newspapers do you read?

Really, these are lame examples of political propaganda and are
irrelevant to the discussion.

>>Again, the security of the nation is at stake. Should we have
>>full disclosure on NORAD tracking and spy satellite imagery?
>>This would expose our capabilties and put us at an unnecessary
>>disadvantage in the game of survival we have going on right now
>>on Earth.

>You believe that the US announcing that they have no idea what
>UFOs are would expose a vulnerability to our enemies?

Yes, because if they are from another countrym, then they would
know that their tech is working and cannot be pierced by our
radar /etc.

>As I previously noted, democracy provides for secrets, but only when
>it is absolutely essential. Admitting that they have a little
>info but still no definitive conclusion, and are willing to
>share what they have with the community, perhaps with
>sensitivity to some classified info, would energize the nation,
>inspire world cooperation, set an example that ignorance is not
>bliss.

I doubt it. The better approach would be to find experts and
bring them in and work on the problem until it can be solved.
There IS a solution. It just takes bright minds to find it. This
is not a nationwide radio trivia contest! This is serious stuff!

>>Why do we need answers? Is it a selfish reason to just know the
>>answer to this age old mystery? We don't really need the
>>government to participate in that kind of thing. There is enough
>>data out there. People think that the government saying
>>something would answer it all. But its likely they have biases
>>and not all the data either.

>This paragraph is logically incomprehensible.

Maybe I am not clear enough in my wording. I will try to
clarify.

1) Why do you really want to know what UFOs are? You need a
profound reason to justify asking the goverment for an
explanation. Not just fluff. That is why my answer would be,
because they may be hostile.

2) Why do you care what the goverment SAYS UFOs are? If you
can't trust the government, then it doesn''t matter what they
say (although it in reality does matter because they CAN cause a
massive panic of at least the stock market). If you do trust the
government, then they may lie (UFOs are no threat) for your own
good (prevent panic). Or they may tell the truth (UFOs are no
threat). In any event, it makes no difference unless they have
to make a negative report.

3) Thus, I say that you must take the initiative to answer your
own questions using innovative means (and hopefully lots of
funding from rich people).

>If our elected
>leaders are systematically lying to us, we should know.

You can never know because you cannot ever trust anyone.

>If they
>know something we should know, they should tell us.

Unless, they knew something that would cause the fall (although
likely temporary) of our society.

>If the
>government has information which would shed light, the data will
>speak for itself.

Maybe, but then if we don't trust them, they could be making it up.

>>The main reasons I see for us to know about this is when it
>>personally affects our lives. If you are an abductee or have
>>lost cattle due to this kind of phenomena, then I would be
>>scared witless first, then try to build my own defenses. I
>>wouldn't depend on the government. If they can't track the
>>things with NORAD and bring them down or keep them out, then
>>they can't do squat, so its left up to each person to defnd
>>themselves. Davenport's passive radar idea is an excellent start
>>in having an unbiased data source. Concepts to defend against
>>these things are also out there.

>This is an argument against your own thesis.

Well, I am developing my thesis. It says trust the government,
because you can't make any difference with it anyway sop you
might as well have a little hope that some of the people are of
the right stuff _and_ answer your own questions without being
spoon-fed by the government.

>>They don't owe us an explanation if it violates our security. If
>>our security is an illusion, what makes you think it would help
>>matters to let everyone know this? If the military has done the
>>best it can but cannot protect us against 1000+ year advanced
>>technology, then we are screwed. If they are just waiting for
>>the invasion, what are they going to do, tell us to get plastic
>>sheeting and duct tape and lots of water?

>If we are screwed, is it your position that we are best served
>the blue pill, lest we not enjoy our last days? An interesting
>turn on representative republican doctrine.

What is this blue pill? Viagra or something? If we are screwed
then it will happen some year or maybe never, but why worry
about it? If you are worried about it, do something about it on
your own. But beware that shooting down these things may make
them mad, and if they are ours, then YOU would be in a little
trouble.

>>You are entitled to your opinion of course. I think it just
>>shows how lame the government is to pass the buck onto the
>>public when they have such lack of leadership and intelligence
>>that they can't answer the questions themselves (a blue-ribbon
>>panel, a Skunk -works, a swank team of Mensa types, who ever). I
>>mean its been fun analyzing this FLIR video, but it is very
>>scarey that a lowly guy like me can do something the 6 figure
>>types missed.

>This is an argument against your own thesis.

Really, you are right! Still, I think it is a lame way to do
business. Holding out your hat to get free public analysis, when
they could have easily done it with an internal team of people
brought in to analyzed the data. Heh, at least they would have
gotten paid! So maybe they aren't as lame as I thought, they got
FREE technical analysis. Pretty clever!

>>The purpose of government is to create stability, either in
>>reality or in fiction.

>The purpose of our government is to establish justice, ensure
>domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote
>the general welfare, and secure the blessings and liberties for
>its people and its posterity.

Salute!

>When protecting the people from anything, the end does not
>always justify the means.

Is this also in the Constitution?

>When a representative democratic
>republic practices deceit in the name of national security, the
>supposed control we think we have becomes an illusion. Do you
>feel safe with our current military-industrial-oil-legislative-
>judicial system? Do you trust them to tell you the truth when it
>counts, if the policy is not to tell the truth when it counts?

As I said, I just have hope and trust in the percentage of
people in governement that are good. This does not apply to all
the government.

You trust them when you can, verify when you can. But we dod not
have time to follow up on every truth/lie statement.

Trust saves alot of time and trouble for the masses.

>>Rather, it represents one more sign of a government in tatters
>>with stability through poverty and corruption. The US has its
>>share of the same I am afraid, but it seems more stable.

>A government in tatters. An odd assessment.

Odd? They don't even have resources enough to do a comprehensive
and conclusive analysis of the Campeche UFO sighting. Case
rested.

>>Alot. Some aren't even hidden. Global warming, genetic
>>manipulation of food, nanomachines, asteriods, antimatter in our
>>solar system, many diseases. But it seems that panic is not
>>good for a stable society, so lets try to minimize it. Let the
>>non-governmental groups pose the problems and solutions and have
>>government address them. If it fails, then that's all you can
>>do. What are you going to do, start a new government?

>Panic stems from ignorance not knowledge.

This is an oversimplification. Panic stems from fear and
hopelessness. Anouncing that UFOs are hostile alien craft which
we cannot defend against is not going to fill the public with
warm fuzzy feelings. I predict such a course would result in
massive crime waves, suicides, etc.






   UFO UpDates
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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Oct > Oct 9

                       Re: Hopkins' Technique - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul>
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 13:05:07 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 16:21:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique - Velez


>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 00:44:46 +0100
>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 16:50:24 -0400
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

>>>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 13:38:28 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

<snip>

>Hello John, List,

>With due respect to John, in spite of spending a great deal of
>time searching for previous posts alluding to the specific
>points that I raised, I haven't found them. If John says that
>they are definitely there, then I think I have to accept what he
>says - I have no reason to doubt him. I do know that there is a
>problem with the search engine, posts that I know do exist did
>not appear in the results. Threads that I have checked include:

>Nightwatch Online - Discussion with Velez
>Budd Hopkins And The Big Lie
>Hypnotic Abuse
>Mad Max: Beyond the Blunderdome
>Hopkins' 1996 NOVA Pre-Airing Comments
>Abductee Files/Our Children

>Plus a great many others, most of which were spurious returns
>from the search engine.

>However, If I can't find them, then presumably others are having
>difficulty doing so as well. In light of that, it seems valid to
>continue the thread - those that are tired of it don't have to
>take part.

Joe,

The search engine at the Archive works on _e-mail_addresses_.
Try doing a search on: jvif.nul and then check out all
the posts that come up with 'NOVA' in the header.

There were many research people who participated that are no
longer members of this List. John Powell, John Stepkowski, Peter
Brookesmith and too many others to list here all participated in
discussion about that NOVA program. Everything connected to it,
John Mack, Budd Hopkins, myself and the other abductees were all
systematically 'taken apart' and discussed to 9th degree.

Try a search using my old e-mail add'y. It 'should' kick out a
_load_ of posts relating to NOVA and other related topics.
And... if you wish to discuss it here - yet again, you have my
blessing. What you do with your time and energy is entirely your
prerogative.;)


Best, happy hunting at the Archive...

John Velez
Participant in NOVA segment on Abduction, 1995-6







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Oct > Oct 9

              Re: Why Is India Experiencing 1000s UFOs? - Allan

From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 18:04:49 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 16:23:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Why Is India Experiencing 1000s UFOs? - Allan


>From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 17:42:18 -0300
>Subject: Why Is India Experiencing 1000s UFOs?


Source: India Daily

http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/10-07i-04.asp
10-07-04

>Like America In Fifties, Why Is India Experiencing Thousands Of
UFOs?

>Researchers say India to become most powerful nation!

>Sumit Chatterjee
Special Correspondent

>Thousands of UFO sighting in Northern India near the Himalayas
>is surprising many including the Indian Government and military
>personnel. In 1940 to 1960 similar thousands of UFO sighting was
>experienced in America - the major superpower with Nuke
>capabilities those days. According to some UFO researchers India
>is on the verge of becoming most sophisticated nation in the
>world and the extra terrestrial groups are likely to contact
>Indian Government if not already done! When a country emerges as
>major power, these groups contact the Government to let know the
>order of the Universe. For example some UFO researchers say that
>India is being briefed on possible usage of Nukes and space
>exploration.

>According to sources, the five members of the Security Council
>all know the order of the Universe. The extra terrestrial bodies
>set the rules and dictate what these countries can and cannot
>do. India is now in the map of would be powerful nations! These
>UFO sighting will go up in the next ten to fifteen years and
>Indian military will learn a lot of them and from them.

>A group of Indian scientists here are pouring over a bunch of
>photographs they took in the northern Himalayas depicting a
>mystery object that could be either of the two but are nowhere
>near cracking the mystery.

Oh dear, oh dear. What a shambles from India Daily.

Why do US sightings stop at 1960? Has this writer got any
credentials whatever on the subject? (Forget all those post-1960
sightings, folks)

Who are the UFO researchers that claim "India is on the verge of
becoming the most sophisticated nation in the world"? Has
India's government already been contacted by ETs? If so, this
makes at least two such countries who have been contacted, since
we know the US has already (presumably pre-1960!) Which country
will be next?  Any suggestions?

Where are these numerous photographs that Indian scientists are
"poring over"? Are they going to show them to the public at
large?

Any abductions or crashes in India yet? With 1000s of UFOs India
must surely have a 'Roswell' by now.

But who is this guy Sumit Chatterjee, and does he know what he
is talking about?

Better still, why has India suddenly got involved with UFOs at
all, or were they just trying to beat Pakistan to this
announcement,
as they did over nuclear weapons a few years back?

CDA








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Oct > Oct 9

              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul>
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 20:41:59 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 16:25:32 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: Santiago Yturria <syturria.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 02:16:19 -0500
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 06:26:14 -0700 (PDT)
>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

<snip>

>Assuming you studied the FLIR footage as you claim, you may have
>noticed the C26A left propeller at 17:16:33. The FLIR camera is
>located underneath the aiplane. Do you know what would have the
>camera's elevation angle been in order to film the plane's left
>propeller along with the luminous object?

>According to logic it must have been pointing upwards is'nt? So
>at 10,500 fts. and the FLIR camera pointing upwards what do we
>got? I hope you can comment on this.

Hi Santiago,

Is the attitude of the plane - i.e. straight and level - known
during the relevant time? Does the flight track allow you to
rule out the possibility that it was banked slightly?


MS








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   Oct > Oct 9

             Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -

From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul>
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 21:03:47 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 16:27:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 16:11:07 -0500
>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 20:49:01 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

>>The problem is that if you "lean in favour of the more
>>speculative direction" then you get to the stage of accepting
>>some UFO incidents as "true UFOs" and stop researching or
>>investigating them any further. A good example of this is the
>>Trindade case (which has been discussed at great length on this
>>List), which certain ufologists had declared to have been
>>thoroughly investigated and to be a genuine UFO, so there was
>>nothing more to be said about it. Case closed. They were
>>somewhat annoyed when even superficial re-examinations of the
>>testimony and photographs revealed numerous inconsistencies and
>>implausibilities.

>As usual, John Harney is in full spin mood. Anybody looking for
>a serious discussion of Trindade - in other words, one that Harney
>has no part of - is urged to go to:

>http://www.parcellular.fsnet.co.uk/trindex.htm

>for a full account of this still puzzling case and a discussion
>of the various theories about it.

Hello Jerry,

Thankyou for bringing this to the list's attention at a timely
moment. I've just expanded and reorganised this material and a
new site is at:

http://trindade-island.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk

I did point it out to John a few days ago.

Best wishes,

Martin Shough








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   Oct > Oct 9

                  Hoax UFO Sighting To Be Recreated For Art

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 16:38:57 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 16:38:57 -0400
Subject: Hoax UFO Sighting To Be Recreated For Art




Source: The North-West Evening Mail -
        Barrow in Furness, Cumbria, UK

http://www.nwemail.co.uk/news/viewarticle.aspx?id=143262

10-09-04


Hoax UFO Sighting To Be Recreated For Art

A former Ulverston teacher credited with taking the first UFO
photograph in Britain has revealed it was a schoolboy prank.

In February 1954 a picture resembling a UFO floating over
Coniston, taken by 14-year-old Stephen Darbishire, from Torver,
caused a national sensation.

The teenager claimed he had been on the fells with his cousin
when he photographed a UFO.

Now Mr Darbishire, a 63-year-old well-known South Lakeland
artist, says it was all a hoax.

At the time, confronted by the national media, he was too
terrified and went along with the deception.

Today another former Ulverston schoolboy, artist Julian Claxton,
was planning to re-stage how Mr Darbishire created his famous
hoax UFO photograph.








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                       Re: Hopkins' Technique - Miller

From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 21:39:47 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 16:44:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique - Miller


>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 01:11:38 +0100
>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

>>From: David Chace <davidwchace.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 20:36:40 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

>>>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 13:38:28 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

>><snip>

>While I do not agree with Hopkins' methods, I do not doubt
>that he is well intentioned - he really thinks that he is
>doing some good. I am criticising his technique, not his
>morality. No doubt witch doctors thought trepanation was
>helping their clients in the past. Recently there was a
>trepanised skull discovered in the UK, which appears to have
>been a successful and possibly life-saving operation, though
>this is unlikely to be the usual outcome of such surgery.


A message to Mr Rimmer and Mr Harney,

In his two or three posts on this thread, Joe has achieved more
in a couple of weeks in pursuing his point than you two have in
the countless number of years of abuse, lies, and denegration of
people's mental state.

You could probably learn a thing or two from him. It probably
helps that he doesn't illogically hate Hopkins as you do.


Stuart Miller








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                        Re: Hopkins' Technique - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 20:46:29 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 17:13:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique - Hall


>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 01:11:38 +0100
>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

>>From: David Chace <davidwchace.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 20:36:40 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

>>>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 13:38:28 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

>>>1. Hopkins insistance that Ryan construct a story about the
>>>alien image, in spite of the fact that Ryan clearly did not
>>>recognise the image. This is an overt example of leading a
>>>witness, surely?

>>The child apparently had no conscious recollection of the alien
>>image, but it is still reasonable for Hopkins to seek further
>>information about any subconscious memories or associations the
>>child may have had with the image. As long as Hopkins does not
>>give clues about what kind of story he is looking for, I do not
>>think this can be regarded as leading the witness in the sense
>>of contaminating the child's testimony. The child will come up
>>with whatever he comes up with. Of course, you then go on to
>>address this issue with points 2 and 3.

>My issue really was that the persistence in using the image of
>the Alien was in itself leading. It attracted attention to
>something which the child seemed to have no prior knowledge of,
>making it seem significant to the child because of Hopkins'
>obvious interest in it.

>>>2. Hopkins' encouragement of Ryan when the story starts to
>>>follow a line that he wants it to take and Ryan looks to him
>>>for some kind of cue, eg, the removal of a sleeping person
>>>from their bedroom and Hopkins' remark "That's a good
>>>story".

Joe,

Please excuse me if I have missed something, because I have far
more urgent matters to deal with right now. If you are still
taking the transcript as an authoritative source, you are
operating from a false premise. The program as aired did NOT
reflect what actually transpired. The session was drastically
edited in a very unfair and biased manner deliberatley to debunk
abductions (and Budd).


  - Dick








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               Re: Hoax UFO Sighting To Be Recreated For Art -

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul>
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 14:49:18 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 18:04:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Hoax UFO Sighting To Be Recreated For Art -


>Source: The North-West Evening Mail -
>        Barrow in Furness, Cumbria, UK

http://www.nwemail.co.uk/news/viewarticle.aspx?id=143262

>10-09-04

>Hoax UFO Sighting To Be Recreated For Art

>A former Ulverston teacher credited with taking the
>first UFO
>photograph in Britain has revealed it was a
>schoolboy prank.

>In February 1954 a picture resembling a UFO  over
>Coniston, taken by 14-year-old Stephen Darbishire,
>from Torver, caused a national sensation.

I was always a little dubious of Leonard Cramp's analysis of the
alleged saucer, which seemed to show that Darbishire's photo
showed an object structurally identical to Adamksi's famous
"scout ships."


=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot*yahoo.com)

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com

New book: "After the Martian Apocalypse"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/074348293X








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              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 19:00:47 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 10:21:52 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 09:20:24 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

<snip>

Hi James,

I am not sure how to read your posts. You seem to make my point
as often as your own in subsequent passages, and to an end that
suggests that maintaining the status quo is ludicrous, but doing
anything else is only more ludicrous. I simply do not agree.

When engaged in a discussion of theories and theses, one thing
to keep in mind is that theorizing and thesis-writing is never
wrong, regardless of position. Intercourse is to be encouraged.
I don't agree with Alfred Lehmberg terribly often, but I refrain
from telling him or anyone here that they are wrong. Your
disagreement is sufficient without telling me that I am wrong to
believe what I believe. You garner no respect with such
rhetoric. And I simply do not agree.

I trust the government people that I contact on a regular
basis... the over- worked, invisible thousands that we need to
get anything done any more. I do not trust the triumvirate to
which we have quietly ceded our judgment. The Corporations...
the Bureaucracy... and the Military. Contact me off-list if
you'd prefer more details on this as they do not belong in this
List.

I think we're all grown up now and can handle the ultimate
truth, whether it is that they have known all along about
aliens, or have no idea, or have some idea, or have a few
bodies, or have a space ship... whatever. I think if such an
announcement was made tomorrow, thieves would keep on stealing,
and cops would keep on catching them, and we'd keep on going to
work, and smoking crack... whatever. You may believe that such a
revelation... whatever that revelation... would cause panic in
the streets. I simply do not agree.

You seem to be a nihilist, which in my mind is a hopeless man
trying desperately to rationalize his hopelessness by stating
that hope is futile because change is impossible, thereby
furthering his hopelessness. I simply do not agree.

The blue pill (as opposed to the red pill)was the one in the
Matrix, which if taken, would return you to your comfortingly
familiar yet illusory reality (the Matrix)and you'd forget that
you ever were outside it... in the real world.

Great work on the Campeche case, though. :)

Best Regards,

Kyle







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                              Edward U. Condon

From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 22:52:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 10:24:11 -0400
Subject: Edward U. Condon


In 1967, I had a small magazine which attempted to remove Edward
U. Condon from the Air Force sponsored UFO study because he had
been considered a "security risk" some years earlier and had his
security clearances removed.

Our attempt was not exactly fruitful but did have a smallish
impact, which you may see by going to one of our web-sites:

http://query.homestead.com

and seeing the responses we got from the Air Force, NSA, and
other government agencies.


Rich Reynolds
Fort Wayne MediaWatch








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               HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 10-09-04

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO Research <hbccufo.nul>
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 22:40:40 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 10:33:35 -0400
Subject: HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 10-09-04


HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings

Release Date: October 9, 2004

DisneyWorld in Orlando, Florida UFO

Date: May 2, 2004
Time: Daytime

This photo was taken at DisneyWorld in Orlando, Florida May 2,
2004. When the photo was taken, I didn't notice anything at all
in the sky.

I can also send a photograph if you like. The picture was taken
with a disposable 35mm camera.

Thank You,

Additional Information:

Thanks for taking the time to respond Brian.

I don't recall much about the day because we spent 3 or 4 days
in Orlando with 21 other family members. The vacation also
doubled as a family reunion, complete with 3-day cruise (which
was awesome!) We had the film developed in Orlando before we
came back home because we figured the airport x-ray would ruin
our film and vacation pictures. So, I didn't notice anything in
the picture until we returned home.

As you can imagine with that many family members, days went by
in a blur. I'm afraid I can't really ad much more than that.

The picture was taken with a disposable 35mm camera so I don't
have a negative to make a duplicate from. I can go to a print
shop and make a copy or make a copy from my scanner/printer if
you wish. We made doubles of all photos so if I can find the
duplicate I'll just send it. If I can't find the duplicate,
please let me know how to proceed.

Thanks again and hope you get to feeling better!

Thank you to the witness for the report and photo.

-----------------------

Long Beach, California Orbs

Date: September 11, 2004
Time: Approx: 12:15 p.m.

I live in Long Beach CA.and got some interesting pictures with
my cell phone camera. This spectacle in the sky toke place on
Saturday 9/11/2004 about 12:15 pm. I was at Wilson high school
with the my wife, son and half of his Pop Warner football team.
We were getting ready to caravan to his game in a near by city.
I was the first to see a white ball of light just sitting high
in the sky. I realized it was not moving at all. The sky was
partially cloudy but the clouds did seem unusually spotty.

I told my wife and some other parents to look at the ball of
light and just then two more appeared in close proximity to the
first. I then saw a plane fly past them but at a closer distance
to us. The objects began to move slowly side by side. Then they
began to fade away and reappear in different spots in the sky. I
then noticed a 4th one appear and follow the other lights. I
then pulled out my camera phone a snapped a couple of shots.
Since there were so many small clouds it was very hard to see
them with the naked eye as they moved around the sky behind the
clouds. This lasted for 10-15 minutes while they seemed to be
putting on a show for us. We all had to leave to make the game
on time but while I was getting in the passenger side door my
son yelled "look, now there is big one coming closer" I looked
up and saw what seemed to be a long line of orbs grouped very
close. I snapped a picture right before we pulled off not
knowing what I snapped.

When I looked at the downloaded photos the white orbs were hard
to see because of the poor quality of the camera phone and the
clouds in the sky. What I realized after viewing the photos and
inversing the colors, was there were over 10-15 white orbs
hidden all over the sky behind the clouds. Some of them actually
were in groups of three. I sent these pictures for you to see
and maybe someone can filter them to bring the orbs or whatever
they were out more. Thank You, for your time. P.S your web site
is awesome and I go on it everyday.

Thank you to the witness for the report and pictures.
Enhancements will be done shortly.

--------------------------

Wolverhampton, England Triangle

Date: September 26, 2004
Time: Approx 8:30 p.m.

Looking North-West in a clear sky, my friend and I observed
three 'star-like' point sources of light around magnitude 0
(Vega). The lights formed a triangle in the sky and were
stationary for a minute or so. Unfortunately, we had no
reference and could not estimate the distance to or between
them. The triangle was then joined by four other lights of
similar but variable magnitude that initially moved in an
sweeping manner around the triangle. All lights then formed a
stationary circle in the sky which then broke and lights went
below visible horizon. Having seen the video footage, it would
seem that our sighting was very similar to that seen in Phoenix
on September 26th!

Thank you to the witness for the report.

---------------------------

Phoenix Arizona Orbs In Reverse

Date: September 26, 2004
Time: 3:01 p.m.

Hello Brian. Long time no story. I hope things are going well. I
saw that you were posting stories again so I waited to send you
this clip until then.

On this day it was rather breezy as you can see through the
trees but I did manage to show what this orb did on it's own.
The winds were at my back heading East approximately 10mph as I
taped this. The altitude of the object was at least over 10K ft.
moving South like it was on a pogostick, as you can see on
video. I taped it for a few minutes bouncing upwards and
stopping, upwards and stopping. You can see through the tree how
it did this and than it took off on the last "bounce" heading to
the Northwest at a high rate of speed. At the time I didn't know
what happened. I actually thought it was another object passing
by and I thought I should follow it thinking the other object
was going to be where I left it. I couldn't follow it because it
was so fast and when I went back to find the original object it
was gone. That is when I realized it might be the same object
taking off. I played it back on the TV and noticed that it was
the same object I was recording. Pretty cool.

Hope you are doing well and give my best please.

Thank you to the gentleman for all of the clips and report.
Video clip and pictures are =A92004RichG.

Video clip Phoenix Arizona Orbs In Reverse 3.14mbs

Video Clip can be viewed at:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D19
25

----------------------

HBCC UFO Research Note: I posted a story on the return lights
over Phoenix/Estrella Arizona on September 26, 2004. The below
reports, footage and pictures is a conformation from another
witness (Rob Kritkausky) who saw and filmed the event.
Phoenix/Estrella Lights Return Yet Again - Confirmation From
Another Witness

Brian:

Wanted to send you a confirmation of a sighting you have posted
for Sept 26th in Phoenix. I had documented the same
objects/object as Rich, but from about 30 miles away and
somewhat closer to the event.(video attached)

Perhaps more importantly, we were able to capture what seems to
be a process of formation or multiplication by these lights. In
this second video, I have isolated this single amber light which
starts to initiate some type of spinning off to its right and
the spinning seems to increase until another light appears where
the motion was taking place.(video attached) We should be able
to learn more from a closer comparison of the two videos and we
will certainly update you if any important data is obtained.

Thanks and keep up the fine work.

Thank you to the gentleman for all of the clips and report.

Video clips and pictures are =A9Rob Kritkausky. Please visit
online Rob Kritkausky's website at:

http://www.worldblend.net

Video clip #1 Phoenix/Estrella Lights Confirmation From Another Witness=
 1.63mbs
Video clip #2 Phoenix/Estrella Lights Confirmation From Another Witness=
 2.70mbs

Both clips can be found here:
http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D19
27

The two stills below are taken from Video Clip #2.

These two video clips, report and pictures are a confirmation of
a sighting HBCC UFO Research posted for Sept 26, 2004 in Phoenix
Arizona. This report can be found on my site by clicking on this
link here:
http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D18
92

-----------------------

Outside Of Denver Colorado Orb

Date: September 26, 2004
Time: 12:30 p.m.

We were pursuing one of our favorite pastimes; kite flying, when
my wife said what is that?

She pointed out a distant, bright white, sphere that appeared to
hover, jump a good distance quickly up and down and from side to
side, fly in a straight line and then repeat the action. After
about 5 minutes of this rather strange activity it flew North
West at a fairly rapid pace.

The object was about the diameter of a pencil eraser held at
arms length so it must have been fairly high. I doubt that we'd
have noticed it if it hadn't put on such an interesting aerial
ballet. It was almost like it did not want to be missed.

Regrettably we did not have a camera with us. There were a
number of other people at the West end of the park but, We don't
know if they saw anything, or not.

If they were looking North West I doubt that they could have
missed its sky dance. My wife was pretty excited - this was her
first experience in this vein.

Keep up the great work Brian

Thank you to the witness for the report.

---------------------------

Kaufman Texas, Object Trailing What Appears To be Smoke ?

Date: September 26, 2004
Time: 6:00 p.m.

Hi Brian

I thought I'd send you this, though it's not a sighting, but
just a random shot of the sky here in Kaufman Texas. It was
around 6:00 p.m. when I took this with clear sky on 09-26-04.
Has an interesting shape plus a distortion trail of some sort
seems like. I sent you another on this date (09-26-04) that
looks like a egg with a hole in it. I don't know if you got that
one or not, let me know if you didn't, I'll resend it. It was a
clear picture and I definitely wanted you to see it.

Later my friend.

Photos can be viewed at:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D19
33

Thank you to the witness for this report.

------------------------

Sumner, Washington Two UFO Sighting Reports
Date: October 2, 2004
Time: 5:15 p.m.

Orting, WA. Few blocks from town, around 5:15pm, sky clear and
blue for miles. Looked up and seen something white (couldn=92t
tell what shape) maybe partially triangular with a short white
contrail in the back. Seemed to be heading North toward Sumner,
figured it was a plane. Watched it for approx 2-3 minutes=85looked
away for maybe 5 seconds, looked back and it and the contrail
was completely gone. No sight of either one- anywhere=85no fading
contrail, nothing.

Additional Information:

Sumner, Washington

Hi Brian,

It's Sunday October 3rd, 2004 and the white light I told you
about in my report last night is out in the sky tonight as well.
 It's still moving....I locked the telescope on it and I believe
that proves the thing is definitely moving all about but seems
to stay within a large area but zips sometime slow or quickly
and does loops...sometimes it almost looks as though it drops
but I'm not sure really how to tell if that's what it's
doing...Have you heard of anyone else seeing this in the
Puyallup, Orting, Federal Way, Tacoma areas? Thanks



Thank you to the witness for the reports.



-----------------------


New York Chemtrail And Object

Date: October 04, 2004 Time: Approx: 8:00 a.m.

Brian, this is the best I could do to bring the two objects up
in the picture.I used the adjustment features to alter the image
so they could be seen. There is one large one and a very small
bright one.I wanted to get a good chemshot this AM at 8 o`clock
today.

I was surprised to see the two items show up when I downloaded
the camera. Quality is poor as I`m still filming with a cheap
digital camera,someday I`ll get a state of the art model. Hope
you find these interesting.

Photo can be viewed at:
 http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D1
924

Thank you to the witness for the report and picture.

-----------------------------

Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania Disc Shaped Objects

Date: October 6, 2004
Time: 1:00 p.m.

Number of witnesses: 1
Number of objects: 2
Shape of objects: Disc shape
Full Description of event/sighting: I was stopped at traffic
light facing east. I saw an object that seemed to floated up to
my left. It was like a butterfly in that the reflection was
there than was not. It climbed like it was moving away. At this
point the traffic light changed and as I started to move another
object zoomed in to this other object. This one was larger than
the first one. At this point I was past the line of sight. It
was a clear sunny day with just a slight breeze. Also the second
object was moving in a downward direction towards me.

Additional Information:

1. The weather was perfectly clear sky

2. Direction was East N.E., First object was to my left The
second was on the right. Angle of sight was .nul+                   =


3. Appearance was silver/white and silver. The white was
reflection from sun? Shape was disc and size was like a coin.
Distance seemed to be far but also close.

4. There is a Distribution center for navy near by.

5. I was able to view objects for @ 1:00 min , like I said I was
in traffic at a stop light , when the light turned green I had
to go. I am not entirely sure what I saw but it sure did get
my attention. I thought a second object sort of dropped down out
of no where.

Thank you to the witness for this report.

----------------

Advertise Your UFO/Paranormal Book Or Product On The HBCC UFO
Research Website. See site for details.

Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO Research Home - Phone 250 845 2189
email: hbccufo.nul Website: http://www.hbccufo.com
Redirect: http://www.canadianufo.com HBCC UFO RESEARCH

Newsletter At: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HBCC_UFO_Newsletter/






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                    Peter Robbins Interview Tonight 10/10

From: Greg Bishop <exclmid.nul>
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 13:38:32 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 21:38:44 -0400
Subject: Peter Robbins Interview Tonight 10/10


Dear UpDates List,

Peter Robbins, author of Left At Eastgate, will be interviewed
from 8-10PM PST tonight, Sunday, October 10th. Peter's recent
investigations have included research into the questionable
circumstances surrounding the death of James Forrestal. We will
talk about these subjects and more on "Radio Misterioso" hosted
by Greg Bishop, which can be heard at:

www.killradio.org.

Greg Bishop is the author of the forthcoming book, "Project
Beta: How U.S. Intelligence Created An Alien Conspiracy Under
the Guise of National Security" which is the story of physicist
Paul Bennewitz and the disinformation campaign he was subjected
to in the early 1980s.








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                         Oliver Cromwell's Moonshot

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 07:37:07 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 08:33:46 -0400
Subject: Oliver Cromwell's Moonshot


Source: The Independent - London

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/story.jsp?story=570495

10-10-04

Cromwell's Moonshot: How One Jacobean Scientist Tried To Kick Off The
Space Race

By Steve Connor
Science Editor

More than 300 years before the Soviet Union launched its Sputnik
satellites and American astronaut Neil Armstrong stepped on to
the Moon, England had its own ambitious space programme.

It came in the shape of a 17th-century clergyman who drew up
plans for a spaceship powered by wings, springs and gunpowder, a
leading science historian will reveal this week. According to
Professor Allan Chapman of Oxford University, it was the first
serious attempt at a manned flight to the Moon.

The man behind the lunar mission was Dr John Wilkins, scientist,
theologian and brother-in-law of Oliver Cromwell. In 1640, as a
young man of 26, Dr Wilkins wrote a detailed description of the
machinery needed to communicate and even trade with beings from
another world.

"It was the first serious suggestion of space flight based on
the best documentary evidence available to them at the time,"
said Professor Chapman, who will present his findings tomorrow
night at a public lecture at Gresham College, London.

Although earlier philosophers and poets had written about
visiting the Moon, the writings of Dr Wilkins were in an
altogether different league, Professor Chapman believes. Wilkins
lived inwhat he describes as the "honeymoon period" of
scientific discovery, between the astronomical revelations of
Galileo and Copernicus, who showed a universe with other,
possibly habitable worlds, and the later realisation that much
of space was a vacuum and therefore impassable.

According to Dr Wilkins, the gravitational and magnetic pull of
the Earth extended for only 20 miles into the sky. If it were
possible to get airborne and pass beyond this point, it would be
easy to continue on a journey to the Moon. Inspired by the
discovery of other continents and the great sea voyages of
explorers such as Francis Drake and Walter Raleigh, Wilkins
conceived an equally ambitious plan to explore space.

"Partly the argument was religious. As well as being a
scientist, Wilkins was a theologian, and the argument was that
if God had made worlds then it's within divine providence to put
beings on them," Professor Chapman said.

Dr Wilkins drew up plans for what he called a flying chariot
powered by clockwork and springs, a set of flapping wings coated
with feathers and a few gunpowder boosters to help send it on
its way.

"Of course his approach did not work because he based it on the
premise that the Earth's pull only went up 20 miles and if you
crossed that 20 miles, you could float after that," he said.

By the 1660s, the idea began to fall apart with the work of
Robert Boyle and Robert Hooke, who demonstrated the nature of
the vacuum that would stretch between the Earth and the Moon.

"He also came to realise that magnetism and gravity are not the
same thing. So there was not going to be what Wilkins described
as a 'sphere of magnetic virtue' 20 miles around the Earth which
once you break through that will allow you to float out into
space," Professor Chapman said.

Wilkins also had some other peculiar ideas of space travel that
would make it easy to travel the quarter of a million miles to
the Moon. He believed, for instance, that in space, men would
not have much need for food.

"In space we wouldn't need to eat because the reason why we need
to eat on Earth is that the pull of gravity pulls food through
our bodies and constantly empties our stomachs," Professor
Chapman explained.

Unfortunately, Wilkins never had the chance to test his
theories, and what Professor Chapman terms the Jacobean Space
Programme was grounded.

--

Joe McNally :: Flaneur at Large






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               Re: Hoax UFO Sighting To Be Recreated For Art -

From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 16:06:51 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 08:35:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Hoax UFO Sighting To Be Recreated For Art -


>Source: The North-West Evening Mail -
>  Barrow in Furness, Cumbria, UK

>http://www.nwemail.co.uk/news/viewarticle.aspx?id=143262

>10-09-04

>Hoax UFO Sighting To Be Recreated For Art

>A former Ulverston teacher credited with taking the first UFO
>photograph in Britain has revealed it was a schoolboy prank.

>In February 1954 a picture resembling a UFO floating over
>Coniston, taken by 14-year-old Stephen Darbishire, from Torver,
>caused a national sensation.

>The teenager claimed he had been on the fells with his cousin
>when he photographed a UFO.

>Now Mr Darbishire, a 63-year-old well-known South Lakeland
>artist, says it was all a hoax.

>At the time, confronted by the national media, he was too
>terrified and went along with the deception.

>Today another former Ulverston schoolboy, artist Julian Claxton,
>was planning to re-stage how Mr Darbishire created his famous
>hoax UFO photograph.

Surprise, surprise!

Of course we all knew he was too young at 13 to have faked it
(see writings of Desmond Leslie & Leonard Cramp).

And of course he could not have copied the photo from "FS Have
Landed" because he assured people that he had not seen this book
at the time.

But what he did was to start with the Adamski photo in a
magazine called "Illustrated", published October 1953, which he
admitted at the time he had indeed seen. Stephen was a skilled
artist and photographer, even at age 13.

The daftest part of Stephen's story was where he claimed he was
visited by 'secret agents'. Until then I was willing to accept
the photos (there were in fact two) as possibly genuine.

The moral here is that if you want to remain a credible witness,
do not introduce 'Men-in-Black' yarns into your story. Take note
Mr. Rex Heflin.

So Andy Roberts & Dave Clarke: Yes you were right after all. And
Stephen owes Prince Philip an apology.


CDA








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                       Re: Hopkins' Technique - Harney

From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 17:28:16 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 08:37:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique - Harney


>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 21:39:47 +0100 (BST)
>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

>>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 01:11:38 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

>>While I do not agree with Hopkins' methods, I do not doubt
>>that he is well intentioned - he really thinks that he is
>>doing some good. I am criticising his technique, not his
>>morality. No doubt witch doctors thought trepanation was
>>helping their clients in the past. Recently there was a
>>trepanised skull discovered in the UK, which appears to have
>>been a successful and possibly life-saving operation, though
>>this is unlikely to be the usual outcome of such surgery.

>A message to Mr Rimmer and Mr Harney,

>In his two or three posts on this thread, Joe has achieved more
>in a couple of weeks in pursuing his point than you two have in
>the countless number of years of abuse, lies, and denegration of
>people's mental state.

Could you give some examples of my "abuse, lies and denigration
of peole's mental state"? Or is this just another example of the
vulgar abuse you direct at anyone who doesn't share your bizarre
opinions on UFOs and abductions?

>You could probably learn a thing or two from him. It probably
>helps that he doesn't illogically hate Hopkins as you do.

I have made similar criticisms to those made by Joe McGonagle
some years ago, shortly after Hopkins's book "Witnessed" was
first published. I entirely agree with his criticisms of
Hopkins's interviewing techniques, so what's your problem?

I don't hate Hopkins - I've never met him - I simply disapprove
of his anti-scientific, irrational approach to UFO abduction
reports.


John Harney








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              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 17:53:44 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 08:39:39 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 08:23:43 -0700 (PDT)
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 17:41:16 +0100 (BST)
>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 09:43:31 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

<snip>

>Look at the complacent culture at NASA that destroyed two
>Shuttles. Look at the disfunctional culture in the
>intelligence agencies resulting in 9-11.

As it happens, I don't blame NASA for the shuttle losses. Of
course they made mistakes and are accountable, no question, but
with the best will in the world, where human beings are involved
and where you have something as complicated as a space flight,
mistakes will occasionally occur.

Likewise with the Intelligience commmunity and 911. Yes, they
should have put the pieces together but could anyone really have
foretold what happened and genuinely believed it?

>I do not know the motivation. I can only guess that besides
>the typical human tendency to be asses, it may be due to poor
>document storage, filing, indexing.

No to the first point, maybe partially yes to the second, but
principally because although the documents may be legally
available, they would rather you didn't see them. Previous posts
on this subject have highlighted just how precise one has to be
when filing a FOI request. How commendable and trustworthy is
that of a government that deliberately tries to subvert its own
legal processes?

>Yeah, it was surprising. But as I said, releasing video of
>unknown/ possibly hostile invaders was dumb!

and

>I am left with a bumbling Mexican Air Force, llike Scotland
>Yard, that is hoping for a handout of answers by dumping the
>vidoe in the lap of Sherlock Holmes.

There seems to have been a fair degree of abuse aimed at the
Mexican government and military since this thread started and
quite frankly, it is inappropriate. Bumbling? Dumb? Where would
you like me to start in reeling off the list of "mistakes" made
by the American military, the greatest and best equipped force
in the world? Lets start with the many widows of English
servicemen killed by so called friendly fire in Iraq and the
Gulf. That level of incompetence is just unimaginable. The list
is endless and the perceived moral superiority over your near
neighbours in misplaced.

And before anyone leaps back to my first paragraph as a
rejoinder, somehow the Brits and other forces stationed out
there have managed to avoid killing many Americans.

>Yes, that would be very bad for them to do. The reason is that
>if they truly know that the objects are alien craft AND they
>have no way to deal with them (shooting them down or shielding
>against them), then this would truly have a major impact on
>society (9-11 economic effects or Internet bubble would be
>nothing!). The major message would be of hopelessness.
>Personally, I think it amazing if they could fight 1000 yr
>advanced technology which it is likely the craft would be if
>they exist at all. If they could fight them, then why tell us
>about it? Just DO IT! But they won't because they can't fight
>them without blowing up the planet.

We're back to the main point again and I suspect this is where
you part company with the majority on this List. Is it really
reasonable, at this point in time and considering what has gone
on before, to assume that alien craft are hostile? There is very
little evidence to support that other than a few pilots who have
gone missing chasing UFOs. There is much more evidence to
suggest that their intentions, while maybe not friendly, are
neither hostile either. But this, regardless of which way it
bends, is what you would want to keep from the public? Lets
personalise this. Would you want to know? And if not, why not?

<snip>

>Based on an assumption that the government cannot
>be trusted, if I were you I would just find out the truth
>myself, if you really want to know. I am still not clear why
>you want to know.

I would be happy to find out the truth for myself. I'm sure I
can do a far better job than all the researchers that have gone
before me. By the way, could you tell me where to look? You make
it sound quite easy.

And, why do I want to know? Again, I find myself questioning
your seriousness. Do you not think that confirmation of the
existence of intelligent life elsewhere would not be the
greatest and most significant announcement and event ever to
befall mankind? I do.

Stuart Miller








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                        John Mack UK Service 10-13-04

From: Dave Haith <visions.nul>
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 20:02:36 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 08:43:19 -0400
Subject: John Mack UK Service 10-13-04


The cremation of John Mack will take place at 11.30 am on
Wednesday Oct 13, 2004 at Hendon Crematorium in Holders Hill
Road, London, NW7 1NB.

There will be an informal, non-denominational service with
personal tributes to John.

His lawyer son, Kenny, offers an open invitation to anyone who
knew and respected his father.

Holders Hill Road is the B552 and the nearest underground
station is Mill Hill East which is about 25 minutes walk to the
north east.

Could others distribute this information via other internet
groups please?


Regards
Dave Haith







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                What Do 9/11 & Heaven's Gate Have In Common?

From: Stephen MILES Lewis <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 14:27:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 08:50:05 -0400
Subject: What Do 9/11 & Heaven's Gate Have In Common?


What do 9/11 and Heaven's Gate Have in Common: Author John Gray,
the "911 Truth Movement", Saudi Billionaire Adnan Khashoggi,
Heaven's Gate and the 911 hijackers.

Here is an excerpt from a recent article by ParaPolitical
Investigative Journalist, Daniel Hopsicker's Mad Cow Morning
News ...

COINTELPRO 911: John Gray and Saudi Genesis
October 6 2004-Venice,FL. by Daniel Hopsicker
"The One-Two Punch of Love"

<snip>

Even as one of the best-selling authors of all time continues to
spread money around to 9/11 'Truth Movement" principals, his
business partner Michael Roy Fugler continues to pursue his
lawsuit against one of only a few investigative journalists
challenging the government's official story with eyewitness
evidence. Wow. How unlucky is that? Is it just a coincidence?

The answer is almost too obvious for words. No one was bothering
to hide the pathetic flailing-about of third-rate scrubs denied
more glamorous employment in their chosen field.

John Gray also has strange and so-far unexplained connections to
two Middle Eastern men "of interest" in the 9/11 investigation,
both of whom reside in San Diego.

The first is a Saudi Professor who housed two of the hijackers,
cited recently by Senator Bob Graham, Chairman of the Joint
Congressional Intelligence Committee Hearings, as evidence of
involvement in the attack by people working for the government
of Saudi Arabia.

The second is an Iranian exile, running a network used to
infiltrate hundreds of Middle Eastern men illegally into the
United States, according to court documents. And it is likely
that the Saudi Professor also belongs to this ring. Consider the
following:

Until moving to California Iranian Sam Koutchesfahani had been a
retainer to the Shah. He's been one busy expatriate ever since.
Faster than you can say "Savak" he was running a network used to
infiltrate Middle Eastern men into the U.S., while also finding
time to hang out with the Heaven's Gate cultists, 39 of whom
died in his mansion in the wealthy San Diego suburb of Rancho
Santa Fe, in March of 1997.


"Can't we see the replay before we decide?

Is it coincidence that a man running a ring slipping Middle
Eastern men into the U.S. also rented out a 'safe house' to
cultists ramping up for a launch towards Hale Bopp and the Level
Above Human?

We know what they'd say on NFL Sunday: "You make the call."

But anyway you slice it, its a small world. Even John Gray knew
cult leader Marshall Applewhite, apparently, back in Houston,
Texas. where both lived in the 60's and 70's. Even the Heaven's
Gate cult's Internet Service Provider may have links to
Khashoggi's fine family' of companies, all of whom carry the
code word Genesis in their name. We call them, collectively,
"Saudi Genesis."

Our mind protested the conclusion staring us in the face. After
all, John Gray is the best selling author in the Solar System,
responsible for annual revenues totaling more than the budgets
of countries with seats at the United Nations.

He would certainly have been heavily scrutinized by dozens of
journalists. If he knew the dopey Applewhite, wouldn't it have
surfaced before now?

Similarly, the Heaven's Gate cult was the news for several weeks
when it occurred seven years ago. What could remain hidden after
that kind of media attention?

Apparently...a lot.


"It's like Iowa, but with a beach."

But first, here's a brief introduction into the intrigue we will
soon see swirling in San Diego...

The clue which would eventually lead to a 'protected' network
came from researcher Kelly Cooke http://researched.blogspot.com/
who tipped us to a man we'd never heard of before, Sam
Koutchesfahani.

While it was our first exposure to Koutchesfahani, TV news crews
had made his mansion so recognizable after the Heaven's Gate
mass suicide that neighbors voted to change the name of their
street to deter lookie-loos.

Sam, too, we discovered, has since changed his name.

Sam is from an Iranian family close to the Shah of Iran, stated
wire service reports. He'd moved to San Diego after the Shah was
deposed. Sam's San Diego network, we learned, paid bribes to
dozens of college and university instructors for bogus student
transcripts then used to help insert hundreds of middle eastern
men, most of whom were anything but students, into the U.S.
under the guise that they were.

Sam and the Unnamed Saudi were clearly both in the same
business. A connection seems obvious. The flying school
patronized by the San Diego terrorists, for example, was run by
another Iranian exile, Fereidoun Sorbi.

Has this not occurred to the FBI? They've said nothing about the
network, so it appears they've "overlooked" it in their
"massive" investigation into the biggest crime in US history.
Another case of FBI bungling?

No, unfortunately. The silence owes something to the fact both
men were the FBI's "own."

Like Rudi Dekkers, both Saudi Professor Abdullah Shaikh and
Iranian 'facilitator' Sam Koutchesfahani were confidential
informants for the FBI's San Diego office. And "colleagues" of
the Professor were named in court documents as having been paid
off by Koutchesfahani. The 9/11 Commission Report hinted the two
hijackers living with the Saudi Professor arrived via this
connection.

But there's more... The Saudi 'Professor', now retired, taught
at a bogus 'University' in San Diego, we discovered, run by the
same people who awarded "Dr." John Gray" his - we almost said
bogus but stopped ourselves - his much-disputed 'PhD.'

How amazing is that? Saudi 'Professor' Abdullah Shaikh is so
well protected by the Bush Administration that they wouldn't
even let the FBI serve a subpoena to compel his testimony before
the Intelligence Committee investigation into the 9/11 attack,
even though it was the only subpoena issued by the congressional
inquiry.

The Senate Intelligence Committee would have had better luck
calling the "Make A Wish" Foundation.

"That was a smoking gun," Graham said, although inexplicably no
one in the media was paying him any attention. "The reason for
this cover-up goes right to the White House."

"You're not cleared for any of that information."

We were entering territory considered "too sensitive" for the
American people to know about. We were mucking around on the
edges of the 27 blank pages in the Congressional Intelligence
Report.

It was all very "Hush Hush."For example,while the Saudi
Professor's case is discussed in the text of the 9/11 Commission
Report, he is not mentioned once by name.

"Hamzi and Midhar finally found a room to rent in the house of
'an individual' that they met at a mosque in San Diego," the
report says. "According to the 'homeowner'...

The 9/11 Commission report of this story sets a new record, we
realized while reading it, for most lies packed into a single
sentence in a government document. A high degree of difficulty
was involved. Its like participating in a "record drug bust in
Florida."

There's a lot of stiff competition for the title.

"The housemate who rented the room to Hazmi and Mihddar (two of
the 19 hijackers) is an apparently law-abiding citizen," lied
the report, "with long- standing friendly contacts among local
police and FBI personnel....who saw nothing unusual in (their)
behavior to prompt him to report to his law enforcement
contacts."

FBI counter intelligence informant Abdussattar Shaikh hosted two
of the hijackers while providing more than enough information
for San Diego field agents to request an investigation.

But FBI headquarters refused the plea from a San Diego FBI agent
to investigate the two hijackers-in-training. They increasingly
seem to us to have been operating on some other agenda which has
not yet been fully explained to the American people. Because
incompetence only cuts it as an explanation for so long.

At some point questions of the FBI's "motive" must begin to be
asked.

A comet, sure! But with a spaceship in its tail!

Is there anything about author Gray, other than his association
with Khashoggi, which suggests his truthfulness might be in
question?

Read the entire article here:

http://www.madcowprod.com/mc6712004.html








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                          Jane Goldman Investigates

From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 22:15:43 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 08:52:22 -0400
Subject: Jane Goldman Investigates


UK ufologists may wish to be aware that the second series of
Jane Goldman Investigates will begin on Tuesday October 12 at
10.30pm on Living TV.

The second series will cover subjects ranging from UFOs to
poltergeists and from voodoo and exorcism to mediumship.

I had lunch with Jane and her producer some months ago, to
discuss what UFO stories might be featured. I confess that I'd
lost track of this until I saw the promotional material for the
new series. As will be seen from the link below, the first
episode covers UFOs. Featured stories include Bob White's "UFO
object", Alan Godfrey's supposed alien abduction and the animal
mutilation mystery:

http://www.livingtv.co.uk/janegoldman/synopses.html


Best wishes,

Nick Pope








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                   NASA Redefines Boundary Of Space After

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 09:02:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 09:02:15 -0400
Subject: NASA Redefines Boundary Of Space After




Source: The Watley Review

http://watleyreview.com/2004/100504-3.html

Volume 2, Issue 34, October 5, 2004


NASA Redefines Boundary of Space After SpaceShipOne Flights

In an apparent fit of institutional pique following
SpaceShipOne's successful claim on the X-Prize, NASA has
unexpectedly raised the official boundary of space to 150 miles
above the Earth's surface.

"Obviously, going into outer space is a major endeavor which
really ought to be left in the hands of our planet's only
capable space agency; namely us," said NASA Administrator Sean
O'Keefe. "We congratulate the fine engineering which went into
the production of this novelty plane dubbed 'SpaceShipOne,' but
must point out with regret that it hasn't reached space yet by
our standards."

SpaceShipOne is a privately funded, manned rocket ship powered
with laughing gas and rubber fuel built by Scaled Composites. It
reached the edge of suborbital space Monday - nearly 70 miles
high - to claim the $10 million Ansari X Prize, intended to spur
private spaceflight. However, now that NASA has raised the
boundary for space, SpaceShipOne is officially nothing more than
a high-flying airplane.

"Well, let me tell you one thing: we're not giving back the
prize money," said SpaceShipOne designer Burt Rutan. "We owe
Paul Allen a lot of money, and frankly I don't want to mess with
someone who's on Bill Gates' speed-dial list." Billionaire Allen
earned his fortune with Microsoft, and reportedly invested over
$20 million in the SpaceShipOne project.

"That price tag alone should be a warning sign to people," said
O'Keefe. "Twenty million? That would barely cover the cost of
the food on a typical NASA Space Shuttle flight."

NASA has come under heavy criticism recently for continuing to
invest heavily in its aging fleet of Space Shuttles, which are
notoriously expensive to operate and have experienced serious
safety problems, including the loss of two shuttles to
accidents.

"It's no coincidence that NASA set the "new" boundary of space
just below the average altitude of typical Space Shuttle
flights," said Rutan. "I would bet that, if we managed to reach
an altitude of 150 miles, NASA would raise the boundary to 151."

It is unclear what effect the NASA announcement will have on the
future of SpaceShipOne, or newly-founded company Virgin
Galactic's plans to purchase a fleet of the craft to offer
tourists brief visits to what was formerly considered outer
space.

"I think we're going to move ahead with the plans anyway," said
Virgin CEO Richard Branson. "I'll bet that people willing to pay
$100,000 for a 20-minute flight that brings you back to the
point you left from aren't going to be conversant with
trivialities such as the legal definition of space."

-----

The History of The Watley Review:

http://watleyreview.com/EditorsDesk.html


[UFO UpDates thanks 'Norman' in Toronto for the lead]








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                     Mexican Air Force FLIR Information

From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 18:05:16 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 09:05:02 -0400
Subject: Mexican Air Force FLIR Information


Hello all,

Any information hereby given, is the opinion of Tim Wescott, and
not necessarily that of FLIR Systems Inc. Because, although he
worked for FLIR Systems for nearly 10 years, he now runs his own
company. See:

http://www.wescottdesign.com


Tim Wescott
tim.nul
Senior Systems Engineer. (1994-2003)
FLIR Systems Incorporated,
Portland OR (www.flir.com)
Resume: http://www.wescottdesign.com/tims_resume.html

Tim Wescott was system architect and software lead for FLIR's
next generation of thermal imaging equipment. This effort
included selecting the DSP chip used on 12 boards in the system,
designing and coding the data acquisition and control algorithms
for lens controllers, gyros, optical dither stages and
focus/field of view mechanisms, working with the mechanical
engineering team to insure the mechanisms will meet the control
system goals, and designing the image processing architecture.

Tim Wescott was control system architect and software lead for
the Star SAFIRE II product, which features enhanced line-of-
sight stability over its predecessor. This effort included
overall control algorithms for the gimbal as well as designing
software and critical analog components of a DSP-based gyroscope
control board that allowed for significantly improved noise and
DC offset performance.

Tim Wescott worked on the control algorithms concerning the
gyroscopes, the lenses and the optical dither stages as well as
the FOV/focus mechanism. If anyone knows all there is to know
about the SAFIRE-II is Tim Wescott.

Information regarding the Mexican Air Force FLIR video from
march 05, 2004:

Tim Wescott estimates, that the oil flares in question (AKAL-J,
AKAL-C and NOHOCH-A) is detectable by the SAFIRE II on the given
distance, due to the size of the flares if the weather
conditions is good. He adds; that the conditions in the FLIR
video appeared to be good.

Another thing which is equally interesting is that of the FLIR
elevation problems. Gyroscopes are stabilized with respect to
the inertial frame of reference. In this case, we can assume
that it is fixed to the Earth.

However the SAFIRE II has two modes:

One is a hybrid mode where the camera is stabilized against
image vibration by the gyros, but more or less fixed to the
aircraft attitude for lower-speed motion. That this is the mode
which is active while these images is shot, is documented in the
top-center of the images where you can see it says "INRPT", this
'hybrid mode'.

The second mode is denoted as "HDHLD", and this denotes
inertially stabilized position servo mode. In the video, the
images in question are shot with respect to the aircraft's
attitude since it is in hybrid mode, but the camera is still
stabilized against image vibration by the gyros.

So the assumptions concerning that the camera must have been
relative to the mounting point on the fuselage, is hereby
documented to be correct.

It is common practice for pilots to crank a few degrees of flap
so they can cruise a little slower while keeping the airplane
leveled.

Reference source:

JREF Forums-Mexican Airforce films UFOs

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40244


Regards,

Capt. Alejandro Franz
director.nul








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               Franz' Mexican Air Force FLIR Video Transcript

From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 18:22:36 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 09:29:31 -0400
Subject: Franz' Mexican Air Force FLIR Video Transcript


Hello all,

I am working on the Mexican Air Force FLIR video transcript
including translation and timing.

I was told the -mexicoDODstream.wmv- archive is a copy from the
original DVD and is the same that was sent directly to many
scientists, skeptics and investigators.

Transcript and translation:

Parts 1 through 6 include timing.

Translation only:

Parts 7 through 10 only translation.

http://www.alcione.org/CAMPECHE/

My next new theory: The plot and cover-up.

Any comments are welcome also I would like to have some help
from those members who speak spanish here in the list and could
detect any mistake.


Regards,

Capt. Alejandro Franz
director.nul








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              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:43:05 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 09:43:01 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 19:00:47 -0500
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 09:20:24 -0700 (PDT)
>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>I am not sure how to read your posts. You seem to make my point
>as often as your own in subsequent passages, and to an end that
>suggests that maintaining the status quo is ludicrous, but doing
>anything else is only more ludicrous. I simply do not agree.

I am sorry if I have made myself unclear. I do not frequently
discuss these kind of theories. I prefer straightforward
analysis of cases.

I can try again if it is okay with you, but I think we should
move the discussion to a different thread because it is no
longer really just Campeche, but the broader issue of
"disclosure".

>When engaged in a discussion of theories and theses, one thing
>to keep in mind is that theorizing and thesis-writing is never
>wrong, regardless of position. Intercourse is to be encouraged.
>I don't agree with Alfred Lehmberg terribly often, but I refrain
>from telling him or anyone here that they are wrong. Your
>disagreement is sufficient without telling me that I am wrong to
>believe what I believe. You garner no respect with such
>rhetoric. And I simply do not agree.

I was not aware that I was insulting you. If I did this, then
please know that I do not mean to insult you. Of course, we all
have different opinions. You can believe whatever you want to
believe, and I can believe you have reached a wrong conclusion,
but I do not mean you are not allowed to believe anything you
want. What I mean is that I think you are wrong in your
conclusions. Or perhaps wrong in your analysis. If you think I
cannot make this kind of statement, then I am baffled. I suppose
I can just present all the argument and facts at my disposal and
hope readers can infer the right and wrong answer. I think there
is a right and wrong answer, right? I mean, we don't live in a
foggy grey world of maybes?

>I trust the government people that I contact on a regular
>basis... the over- worked, invisible thousands that we need to
>get anything done any more. I do not trust the triumvirate to
>which we have quietly ceded our judgment. The Corporations...
>the Bureaucracy... and the Military. Contact me off-list if
>you'd prefer more details on this as they do not belong in this
>List.

Some people in Corporations, Bureauocracy and Military are good.
I agree that the worst seem to drift to the top, but I would not
think they are a cohesive mass of yes men. It sounds like you
write them all off because of the bad percentage. Maybe this is
the safest approach. I tend to have a little more hope in the
surviving good folk.

>I think we're all grown up now and can handle the ultimate
>truth, whether it is that they have known all along about
>aliens, or have no idea, or have some idea, or have a few
>bodies, or have a space ship... whatever. I think if such an
>announcement was made tomorrow, thieves would keep on stealing,
>and cops would keep on catching them, and we'd keep on going to
>work, and smoking crack... whatever. You may believe that such a
>revelation... whatever that revelation... would cause panic in
>the streets. I simply do not agree.

I think that you can only speak, at most, for the enlightened
small percentage group of people you are familiar with. This is
a seriously small database upon which you can extrapolate social
groups.

>You seem to be a nihilist, which in my mind is a hopeless man
>trying desperately to rationalize his hopelessness by stating
>that hope is futile because change is impossible, thereby
>furthering his hopelessness. I simply do not agree.

I am somewhat bothered by catagorizations and pigeon holes. If I
were truly as you state, I would have killed myself a long time
ago. The problem I am having in this discussion is that very
self-evident truths seem to not be held, at least by you and
perhaps by others reading this conversation.

1) For a variety of reasons, which we can go on at great length
to list and debate, any disclosure other than the statement that
there is no problem, no threat is going to destroy our society.
If disclosure is required, it will happen because something big
enough has already happened to justify it.

2) If you want to force disclosure, then gather the data
yourself of all the dangerous actions and threats of the
phenomena that has happened to Earth citizens. Present this to
Congress and the Press. I am afraid that if this does force the
powers that be's hand, we may be in alot of trouble (or maybe
just the people trying to force the hand).

When I say that we may be able to defend ourselves against these
objects (if they are alien craft), then that is not a sign of
hopelessness. I merely say that this is a risky proposition
since you are taking on the role of delegated authorities whose
job is to take action.

>The blue pill (as opposed to the red pill)was the one in the
>Matrix, which if taken, would return you to your comfortingly
>familiar yet illusory reality (the Matrix)and you'd forget that
>you ever were outside it... in the real world.

Interesting. I never read the book or saw the movie.

>Great work on the Campeche case, though. :)

Thanks. If only more people appreciated it!








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   Oct > Oct 11

                              Are UFOs Hostile?

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:55:04 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 09:44:31 -0400
Subject: Are UFOs Hostile?


This is an offshoot from the Campeche thread.

I am surprised that it may be a widely held belief that UFOs are
not a threat or hostile. Is this true? I am sure each of us has
read maybe as many as 1000 cases and can recall hostility in
many reports with only a small fraction of benevolent cases.

IMPORTANT
Hostility implies intent, so we must assume for the discussion
that the UFOs are consciously directed. Obviously if they are
some natural phenomena, they may not be hostile, but may be a
threat or dangerous.

Also, we are limited, based on veracity, on the cases. We
weren't there, so we mainly rely on witness testimony. But there
have been many profound cases over the past 40 years.

Here is a swag at some classes of hostility.
1) Infringing on airspace.
2) Affecting nuclear missile sites.
3) Affecting aircraft operation negatively.
4) Discharging radiation at humans.
5) Damaging crops and other property
6) Implanting devices in humans against consent
7) Abducting humans (kidnapping)
8) Raping humans
9) Terrorizing humans.
10) Not using their technology to prevent
large scale deaths

Cases of benevolence
1) Most contactee stories of enlightened messages
2) Messages in the sky to influence events
3) Some Biblical stories of positive influence
(at least on one side!)

Any thoughts or other ideas on this subject?









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              Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof -

From: Dave Morton <Marspyrs.nul>
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:55:07 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 09:46:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof -


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 11:58:10 -0500
>Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 18:43:49 -0400
>Subject: Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof -


>>Source: The Triangle - Drexel University Student Newspaper
>>       Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

>>http://www.thetriangle.org/news/2004/10/08/SciTech/Credible.Ufo.Witnesses.N=
>ot.Sufficient.Proof-747233.shtml

>>10-08-04

>>Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof

>>The Iron Skeptic
>>By Aaron Sakulich

<snip>

>>Aaron Sakulich is a senior majoring in materials science and
>>engineering.

>...Off hand, I'd say there's more to 'heaven' and 'Earth' than
>is dreamt of in this undergrad's nascent philosophy... All the
>same dismissing arguments re-invented as if they were made the
>first time here.

And just another "cry for attention" from a debunker accusing
abductees of "crying for attention."

I guess he was jealous of all the media attention given to the
thousands of abductees - not to mention their product
endorsements, book and movie deals, T-shirts, first-class air
travel, etc. (I'm joking).

Is he typical of today's college students? I hope he doesn't go
to work for NASA after graduation. That anti-UFO, anti-abductee
article was the most far-fetched glob of goo I've read in a
while.


Dave Morton







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                             Antonio Villas-Boas

From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 20:21:43 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 09:49:57 -0400
Subject: Antonio Villas-Boas


In the 1970s this writer struck up a friendship with a
Department of Defense translator, with whom I communicated for
several years about a project he was interested in getting
funded.

At one point the translator told me an interesting story, which
I followed up on to some extent, sending the story told and my
initial inquiry to Jacques Vallee (I have the certified receipt
from Mr. Vallee), Lucius Farish, and (maybe) Jerry Clark, among
others.

The story told involved Antonio Villas-Boas.

UFO UpDate readers can find my original paper at:

http://mediae.homestead.com

The paper(s) there are the exact copies of the material I put
together, and are filled with references that have been set
aside long ago by the UFO community. However, the Villas-Boas
case still resonates with some.

Because of personal exigencies, I never pursued the matter
further, leaving it to others to ferret out the truth or non-
truth of the story I was told.

I have the name of the DOD translator, whom I tried to contact
several times in the late 1970s, but to no avail, even checking
for him through his mentioned children, with no success.

I'll not divulge the name here, but can provide it for
verification - that he actually was a DOD employee of a rather
high ranking - to bonafide UFO experts: Stanton Friedman, Jerry
Clark, Richard Hall, and a few others.


Rich Reynolds
Fort Wayne MediaWatch









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                          PRG/X-Conference Request

From: Stephen G. Bassett <Disclosure2003.nul>
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 02:13:49 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 10:31:52 -0400
Subject: PRG/X-Conference Request



PRG
Paradigm Research Group



The second X-Conference is now set for April 22-24, 2005. PRG would be
most grateful if you would consider placing a linked banner on the front
of your website to help promote the conference. The link would be:

http://www.x-conference.com.

Some banner options can be found at:

http://www.paradigmclock.com/X-Conference/banner.htm

If you are able to place a banner up, please let me know and
I'll get a thank you link up on the X-Conference website at that
same location.

Thanks

Steve Bassett

________________________________________________________

Paradigm Research Group
E-mail: ParadigmRG.nul
URL: www.paradigmclock.com
Cell: 202-431-2459
4938 Hampden Lane, #161
Bethesda, MD 20814
_________________________________________________________

1st Annual Exopolitics Expo - The X-Conference
Hilton Washington DC North/Gaithersburg
www.x-conference.com
Tapes/DVDs available at: www.lostartsmedia.com







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               Re: Hoax UFO Sighting To Be Recreated For Art -

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 09:14:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 10:37:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Hoax UFO Sighting To Be Recreated For Art -


>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 16:06:51 +0100
>Subject: Re: Hoax UFO Sighting To Be Recreated For Art

>>Source: The North-West Evening Mail -
>>Barrow in Furness, Cumbria, UK

>>http://www.nwemail.co.uk/news/viewarticle.aspx?id=143262

>>10-09-04

>>Hoax UFO Sighting To Be Recreated For Art

>>A former Ulverston teacher credited with taking the first UFO
>>photograph in Britain has revealed it was a schoolboy prank.

>>In February 1954 a picture resembling a UFO floating over
>>Coniston, taken by 14-year-old Stephen Darbishire, from Torver,
>>caused a national sensation.

>So Andy Roberts & Dave Clarke: Yes you were right after all. And
>Stephen owes Prince Philip an apology.

Why are you singling out Roberts and Clarke? Weird. Listfolk new
to this subject no doubt get the impression that R&C have been
taking on furious Darbishire-photo believers and suffering
slings and arrows in their fierce defense of an unpopular truth.
I especially love that "after all." A nice touch, even if it is
devoid of any discernible substance beyond the merely
rhetorical.

In reality:

Generations of ufologists, including (gasp!) ETH proponents,
have been skeptical of Darbishire's photograph - if they even
remember it, that is. Darbishire's supporters were pro-Adamski
types, who saw his photo as validation of Adamski's scoutcraft
photos. To the rest of us, Darbishire's was a hilariously
transparent fake. To start with, the support structure is
plainly visible to the eye.

What next? Roberts and Clarke prove that the earth is round
"after all"?


Jerry Clark










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              Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof -

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 11:08:15 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:00:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof -


>From: Dave Morton <Marspyrs.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:55:07 EDT
>Subject: Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof


>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 11:58:10 -0500
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Subject: Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof -


>>>Source: The Triangle - Drexel University Student Newspaper
>>>       Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

>>>http://www.thetriangle.org/news/2004/10/08/SciTech/Credible.Ufo.Witnesses.N=
>>ot.Sufficient.Proof-747233.shtml

>>>10-08-04

>>>Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof

>>>The Iron Skeptic
>>>By Aaron Sakulich

><snip>

>>>Aaron Sakulich is a senior majoring in materials science and
>>>engineering.

>>...Off hand, I'd say there's more to 'heaven' and 'Earth' than
>>is dreamt of in this undergrad's nascent philosophy... All the
>>same dismissing arguments re-invented as if they were made the
>>first time here.

>And just another "cry for attention" from a debunker accusing
>abductees of "crying for attention."

>I guess he was jealous of all the media attention given to the
>thousands of abductees - not to mention their product
>endorsements, book and movie deals, T-shirts, first-class air
>travel, etc. (I'm joking).

>Is he typical of today's college students? I hope he doesn't go
>to work for NASA after graduation. That anti-UFO, anti-abductee
>article was the most far-fetched glob of goo I've read in a
>while.


>Dave Morton

Dave Morton, thanks for the laugh of the day :) I need that!

You've also got to understand today's media conglomerates
though. That sarcastic, condescending, antagonistic talk show
host thingie is big business. This kid who wrote that article
knows the dilly-yo!

I'm sure those governmental contractors will snap this guy up so
fast there'll be friction burns on his 'Dr. Denton's'.

I guess being a generalizing, non specific, opinionated blowhard
is the latest way to get chicks and jobs nowadays.


Best,

Greg








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              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 11:50:55 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:02:23 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 20:41:59 +0100
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>>From: Santiago Yturria <syturria.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 02:16:19 -0500
>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>Assuming you studied the FLIR footage as you claim, you may have
>>noticed the C26A left propeller at 17:16:33. The FLIR camera is
>>located underneath the aiplane. Do you know what would have the
>>camera's elevation angle been in order to film the plane's left
>>propeller along with the luminous object?

>>According to logic it must have been pointing upwards is'nt? So
>>at 10,500 fts. and the FLIR camera pointing upwards what do we
>>got? I hope you can comment on this.

>Hi Santiago,

>Is the attitude of the plane - i.e. straight and level - known
>during the relevant time? Does the flight track allow you to
>rule out the possibility that it was banked slightly?

It is likely that the airplane was "left-right level" (no
"roll"). However there could have been "yaw".... a slight turn
of the plane into a wind and there probably also was "pitch"...
a slight front-back tilt angle angle with the nose higher than
the tail.








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                       Re: Hopkins' Technique - Harney

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 13:03:09 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:05:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique - Harney


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 17:28:16 +0100
>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 21:39:47 +0100 (BST)
>>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

>>>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 01:11:38 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

>>>While I do not agree with Hopkins' methods, I do not doubt
>>>that he is well intentioned - he really thinks that he is
>>>doing some good. I am criticising his technique, not his
>>>morality. No doubt witch doctors thought trepanation was
>>>helping their clients in the past. Recently there was a
>>>trepanised skull discovered in the UK, which appears to have
>>>been a successful and possibly life-saving operation, though
>>>this is unlikely to be the usual outcome of such surgery.

>>A message to Mr Rimmer and Mr Harney,

>>In his two or three posts on this thread, Joe has achieved more
>>in a couple of weeks in pursuing his point than you two have in
>>the countless number of years of abuse, lies, and denegration of
>>people's mental state.

>Could you give some examples of my "abuse, lies and denigration
>of peole's mental state"? Or is this just another example of the
>vulgar abuse you direct at anyone who doesn't share your bizarre
>opinions on UFOs and abductions?

>>You could probably learn a thing or two from him. It probably
>>helps that he doesn't illogically hate Hopkins as you do.

>I have made similar criticisms to those made by Joe McGonagle
>some years ago, shortly after Hopkins's book "Witnessed" was
>first published. I entirely agree with his criticisms of
>Hopkins's interviewing techniques, so what's your problem?

>I don't hate Hopkins - I've never met him - I simply disapprove
>of his anti-scientific, irrational approach to UFO abduction
>reports.


John,

I'm not sure that until someone else comes along with a better
method that you can call Hopkin's unscientific. Is this as
opposed to the "scientific" method that psychology uses? For
example the Stanford Experiment method?

Freud's method was probably considered unscientific in his day.
Someone has to be a leader while science stumbles around trying
to find the courage to follow. It's a learning process. Where
did you actually discover Hopkin's irrational approach? How do
you know it's irrational? Have you been present at  one of the
sessions?
Don Ledger







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              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 09:16:42 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:07:36 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 17:53:44 +0100 (BST)
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 08:23:43 -0700 (PDT)
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>Look at the complacent culture at NASA that destroyed two
>>Shuttles. Look at the disfunctional culture in the
>>intelligence agencies resulting in 9-11.

>... I don't blame NASA for the shuttle losses. Of
>course they made mistakes and are accountable, no question, but
>with the best will in the world, where human beings are involved
>and where you have something as complicated as a space flight,
>mistakes will occasionally occur.

>Likewise with the Intelligience commmunity and 911. Yes, they
>should have put the pieces together but could anyone really have
>foretold what happened and genuinely believed it?

Yes, it all could have been predicted and prevented. We have the
technology to perform what if computer simulations. We can
predict the probability of events happenings, the outcome of the
events and how best to prevent the event. My interactions with
NASA and the intelligence community show a very backward
organizational culture which doesn;t use these type of tools
because of human biases.

How could you have read the Columbia investigation report and
not seen how human failings, not science/technology, destroyed
it?

>>I do not know the motivation. I can only guess that besides
>>the typical human tendency to be asses, it may be due to poor
>>document storage, filing, indexing.

>No to the first point, maybe partially yes to the second, but
>principally because although the documents may be legally
>available, they would rather you didn't see them. Previous posts
>on this subject have highlighted just how precise one has to be
>when filing a FOI request. How commendable and trustworthy is
>that of a government that deliberately tries to subvert its own
>legal processes?

I sympathize with the irritation of having to go through such
bureaucratic hoops. I have tried to obtain data from NASA using
FOIA. Sometimes I am successful, sometimes not. I feel that the
times I am not is due to bureaucratic mishandling rather than
stonewalling. I suppose messing with the military would be
worse.

>>Yeah, it was surprising. But as I said, releasing video of
>>unknown/ possibly hostile invaders was dumb!
>>I am left with a bumbling Mexican Air Force, llike Scotland
>>Yard, that is hoping for a handout of answers by dumping the
>>vidoe in the lap of Sherlock Holmes.

>There seems to have been a fair degree of abuse aimed at the
>Mexican government and military since this thread started and
>quite frankly, it is inappropriate. Bumbling? Dumb? Where would
>you like me to start in reeling off the list of "mistakes" made
>by the American military, the greatest and best equipped force
>in the world? Lets start with the many widows of English
>servicemen killed by so called friendly fire in Iraq and the
>Gulf. That level of incompetence is just unimaginable. The list
>is endless and the perceived moral superiority over your near
>neighbours in misplaced.

>And before anyone leaps back to my first paragraph as a
>rejoinder, somehow the Brits and other forces stationed out
>there have managed to avoid killing many Americans.

Why are you bringing up the US military? It did not release a
UFO video!! When I criticize the Mexican Air Force, it is
because of the release of UFO footage without conclusive
analysis. What does friendly fire have to do with it? I am sure
ALL military organizations make mistakes during combat. But this
Mexican UFO footage release was not during combat or a war. It
was apparently done with no real pressure.

>>Yes, that would be very bad for them to do. The reason is that
>>if they truly know that the objects are alien craft AND they
>>have no way to deal with them (shooting them down or shielding
>>against them), then this would truly have a major impact on
>>society (9-11 economic effects or Internet bubble would be
>>nothing!). The major message would be of hopelessness.
>>Personally, I think it amazing if they could fight 1000 yr
>>advanced technology which it is likely the craft would be if
>>they exist at all. If they could fight them, then why tell us
>>about it? Just DO IT! But they won't because they can't fight
>>them without blowing up the planet.

>We're back to the main point again and I suspect this is where
>you part company with the majority on this List. Is it really
>reasonable, at this point in time and considering what has gone
>on before, to assume that alien craft are hostile? There is very
>little evidence to support that other than a few pilots who have
>gone missing chasing UFOs. There is much more evidence to
>suggest that their intentions, while maybe not friendly, are
>neither hostile either.

I have started a separate thread to deal with this issue. I will
simply say here that many cases come to mind of hostile actions.
Of course they haven't blown up cities yet. But depending on the
reliability you place on witness testimony, there are many cases
of grievous lawbreaking activites. I agree that most UFOs are
likely prosaic objects, but the ones that SEEM alien or mostly
hostile. The neutral ones are those seen above/outside our
airspace, the friendly ones are very few (if you tie crop
circles to UFOs you may suggest that attempting to communicate
is peaceful, except that they are damaging/destroying crops in
the process-which shows disregard for human property, and
perhaps inducing genetic changes in the crops which have long
term, maybe unfavorable, consequences). I may take the time to
list all the hostile cases, but the overall groups are clear.

1) Any unauthorized incursion of a country's airspace is hostile.
2) Human abductions are hostile.
3) Cattle mutilations are hostile.
4) Implants are hostile.
5) Bizarre medical/sex experiments are hostile.
6) Radiation emissions at people is hostile.
7) Affecting pilots/aircraft is hostile.

>But this, regardless of which way it
>bends, is what you would want to keep from the public? Lets
>personalise this. Would you want to know? And if not, why not?

I think I will start another thread on "UFO Disclosure
Scenarios". I can only think of a few with positive outcomes and
most have negative outcomes. SInce we do not know the one that
will occur, I vote to act on the safe side.

>>Based on an assumption that the government cannot
>>be trusted, if I were you I would just find out the truth
>>myself, if you really want to know. I am still not clear why
>>you want to know.

>I would be happy to find out the truth for myself. I'm sure I
>can do a far better job than all the researchers that have gone
>before me. By the way, could you tell me where to look? You make
>it sound quite easy.

I did not say it was easy. I said we have some ways to do this.
Build Davenport's device, and track them down. If this is not
possible, then go to a flap area and shoot them down.

>And, why do I want to know? Again, I find myself questioning
>your seriousness. Do you not think that confirmation of the
>existence of intelligent life elsewhere would not be the
>greatest and most significant announcement and event ever to
>befall mankind? I do.

I think you are an optimistic person. Look at this planet's
history of having new races meet. Not pleasant, especially for
the less advanced one. I can't even see where we would benefit
if the alien's crashed and we exmained their tech. For >1000 yr
advanced tech, we could not even figure out how to build the
TOOLS to replicate the machines, even if we could figure out how
the machine worked.

I think if we knew the life was safely across the gulf of space
which they would not be able to travel, then it may be okay to
learn of this. I do not think we should communicate with them
though because we would be painting a target on our world. But
this is SETI, not UFOs. If UFOs are alien craft, then public
confirmation of this would definitely crash our society.








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                       Re: Hopkins' Technique - Miller

From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 17:19:09 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:08:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique - Miller


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 17:28:16 +0100
>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 21:39:47 +0100 (BST)
>>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

>>>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 01:11:38 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

>>>While I do not agree with Hopkins' methods, I do not doubt
>>>that he is well intentioned - he really thinks that he is
>>>doing some good. I am criticising his technique, not his
>>>morality. No doubt witch doctors thought trepanation was
>>>helping their clients in the past. Recently there was a
>>>trepanised skull discovered in the UK, which appears to have
>>>been a successful and possibly life-saving operation, though
>>>this is unlikely to be the usual outcome of such surgery.

>>A message to Mr Rimmer and Mr Harney,

>>In his two or three posts on this thread, Joe has achieved
>>more in a couple of weeks in pursuing his point than you two
>>have in the countless number of years of abuse, lies, and
>>denegration of people's mental state.

>Could you give some examples of my "abuse, lies and
>denigration of peole's mental state"? Or is this just another
>example of the vulgar abuse you direct at anyone who doesn't
>share your bizarre opinions on UFOs and abductions?

No. I did so a couple of weeks back and I'm not doing it again.
However, could you please give me some examples of the vulgar
abuse I direct at others and indeed examples of my bizarre views
on UFOs etc?

>>You could probably learn a thing or two from him. It probably
>>helps that he doesn't illogically hate Hopkins as you do.

>I have made similar criticisms to those made by Joe McGonagle
>some years ago, shortly after Hopkins's book "Witnessed" was
>first published. I entirely agree with his criticisms of
>Hopkins's interviewing techniques, so what's your problem?

I think most people who may have read my post would have
understood the point I was making, but it is no surprise that
you don't and so I will spell it out here. Joe was able to
discuss this subject critically, in a probably less than
sympathetic environment, and did so in an effective manner
without resorting to abuse and ridicule (as you do). In short,
he got his points over without baiting anyone and without
attracting in return a bucketful of aggressive responses (as you
do).

So I make my point again; you could probably learn a thing or
two from him.

>I don't hate Hopkins - I've never met him - I simply
>disapprove of his anti-scientific, irrational approach to UFO
>abduction reports.

Irrational as it may be to hate someone you've never met, I beg
to differ. I would suggest you do hate him and the evidence is
there for all to see. An irrational sceptic? Surely not.


Stuart Miller







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                          UFO Disclosure Scenarios

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 09:22:55 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:11:43 -0400
Subject: UFO Disclosure Scenarios


This is another thread born of the Campeche thread.

I thought it would be useful to list the variety of scenarios
regarding UFO disclosure. The idea is that since we do not know
how the disclosure would handled or what said, what I want to
know is:

What is the outcome for each scenario.

Off the top of my head, most scenarios seem fatal - at least
temporarily - to our society and a few seem favorable - (some
have no effect at all.

I would hope this has already been done. If anyone has a
reference to this kind of work, please let me know.

The purpose is to see why disclosure is "safe".








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                       Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Harney

From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:59:37 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:12:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Harney


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:55:04 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>Subject: Are UFOs Hostile?

>This is an offshoot from the Campeche thread.

>I am surprised that it may be a widely held belief that UFOs are
>not a threat or hostile. Is this true? I am sure each of us has
>read maybe as many as 1000 cases and can recall hostility in
>many reports with only a small fraction of benevolent cases.

If you believe that some UFOs are highly advanced alien
spacecraft, then you also have to believe that they are not
hostile; otherwise we would not be here to argue about them.


John Harney






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                 Re: NASA Redefines Boundary Of Space After

From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 19:37:31 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:47:01 -0400
Subject: Re: NASA Redefines Boundary Of Space After


>Source: The Watley Review

>http://watleyreview.com/2004/100504-3.html

>Volume 2, Issue 34, October 5, 2004

>NASA Redefines Boundary of Space After SpaceShipOne Flights

>In an apparent fit of institutional pique following
>SpaceShipOne's successful claim on the X-Prize, NASA has
>unexpectedly raised the official boundary of space to 150 miles
>above the Earth's surface.

Although the above story is a spoof, Lord Hill-Norton asked a
question in Parliament in 1998 that prompted an interesting
reply concerning definitions of terms such as "outer space" and
"deep space". Click on the following link and tab down to the
heading "Airspace: Definition":

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199798/ldhansrd/vo981019/text/81019w0
1.htm

The question arose in the margins of Lord Hill-Norton's interest
in the role of the Deep Space Tracking Facility at RAF Feltwell
(Google search on "Hill-Norton and Feltwell" for links).


Best wishes,

Nick Pope








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              Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof -

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 13:48:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 15:15:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof -


>From: Dave Morton <Marspyrs.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:55:07 EDT
>Subject: Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 11:58:10 -0500
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Subject: Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof -

>>>Source: The Triangle - Drexel University Student Newspaper
>>>       Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

>>>http://www.thetriangle.org/news/2004/10/08/SciTech/Credible.Ufo.Witnesses.N=o
t.Sufficient.Proof-747233.shtml

>>>10-08-04

>>>Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof

>>>The Iron Skeptic
>>>By Aaron Sakulich

><snip>

>>>Aaron Sakulich is a senior majoring in materials science and
>>>engineering.

>>...Off hand, I'd say there's more to 'heaven' and 'Earth' than
>>is dreamt of in this undergrad's nascent philosophy... All the
>>same dismissing arguments re-invented as if they were made the
>>first time here.

>And just another "cry for attention" from a debunker accusing
>abductees of "crying for attention."

>I guess he was jealous of all the media attention given to the
>thousands of abductees - not to mention their product
>endorsements, book and movie deals, T-shirts, first-class air
>travel, etc. (I'm joking).

>Is he typical of today's college students? I hope he doesn't go
>to work for NASA after graduation. That anti-UFO, anti-abductee
>article was the most far-fetched glob of goo I've read in a


Some of the more entertaining aspects of Sakulich's articles are
the responses in the Triangle forum.

To a previous article called "UFO 'science' investigations
debunked":

http://www.thetriangle.org/news/729532.html

even James Oberg gave the author a light-hearted pasting about
his amateurish debunking attempts. Frank Warren provided
Sakulich with a new orifice with which to spew more pearls of
'wisdom' as did Robert VanDerClock. Yes they are most
entertaining.


Terry








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                        Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:51:04 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 15:17:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Boone


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:55:04 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>Subject: Are UFOs Hostile?


>This is an offshoot from the Campeche thread.

>I am surprised that it may be a widely held belief that UFOs are
>not a threat or hostile. Is this true? I am sure each of us has
>read maybe as many as 1000 cases and can recall hostility in
>many reports with only a small fraction of benevolent cases.

>IMPORTANT
>Hostility implies intent, so we must assume for the discussion
>that the UFOs are consciously directed. Obviously if they are
>some natural phenomena, they may not be hostile, but may be a
>threat or dangerous.

<snip>

>Here is a swag at some classes of hostility.
>1) Infringing on airspace.
>2) Affecting nuclear missile sites.
>3) Affecting aircraft operation negatively.
>4) Discharging radiation at humans.
>5) Damaging crops and other property
>6) Implanting devices in humans against consent
>7) Abducting humans (kidnapping)
>8) Raping humans
>9) Terrorizing humans.
>10) Not using their technology to prevent
>large scale deaths

<snip>

>Any thoughts or other ideas on this subject?

Gee James, I can't think of any hostile UFO incidents of note
unless we do stretch our imaginations and add ancient religious
texts as UFO stories. In that case, hell yeah they're hostile!
Throwin' plagues and burning entire cities and other grisly
stuff would in my book be hostile, but that's only if we stretch
the imagination.

I, on the other hand find UFOs probably #99 on a list of 100
hostile things to run into. Higher on that scale would be things
like drunk drivers, ex wives, mothers-in-law, crackheads,
Republicans, Democrats, over enthusiastic UFO believers and
debunkers, and the most dangerous critter ever to plague
mankind:

Teething toddlers with a thing for kneecaps.

Ain't no monster worse than one of them diapered menaces on a
rampage.

Seriously. If UFOs had blown up cities, mutilated cows, run cops
off the road, made women pregnant with mutant babies, it
wouldn't bat an eye of the press. Yet you let just one UFO
interrupt the daily soap operas or NASCAR broadcast or even
worse an episode of Jeopardy, then you would definitely see a
new definition of hostility. Not from the UFOs but from the
angry legions of couch potatoes.

Nothin' says fun like a tv spud with a gun!


Best,

Greg








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              Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof -

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:00:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 15:18:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof -


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 11:08:15 EDT
>Subject: Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof

<snip>

>I guess being a generalizing, non specific, opinionated blowhard
>is the latest way to get chicks and jobs nowadays.


Hi Greg,

Twould qualify him for the White House as well, if recent events
inform. :)


Best,

Kyle








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                           The New 'Klasskurtzian'

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:07:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 15:21:38 -0400
Subject: The New 'Klasskurtzian'


The New 'Klasskurtzian'
By Alfred Lehmberg

October 10's History Channel Documentary by Kathleen Quinn
regarding "MJ-12" was a remarkable program. I detected an even-
handedness and balance rarely seen on television about
ufological issues.

I won't be getting into the details of Quinn's doc other than to
say that Dr. [immaterial] Joe Nickel, bless his little corn-fed
traditionalistic's coal black patrician heart, is credited with
putting a true face on the total irrationality that is the whole
of CSICOP's "Klasskurtzian" 'shtick'... pardon the newly coined
word. It's meaning can be drawn, easily, from its context with
the forthcoming.

And, in a quick sidebar, you know what? Klasskurtzianism _is_
about ideologically canted and authoritarian storm-troopers from
the biased realms of CSICOPia, after all! Thank you, Doctor
Rudiak!

"Ufologists are, at best, irresponsible," implies an 'earnest'
Dr. [immaterial] Joe Nickel towards the end of the hour long
program. Stanton Freidman is derelict. Richard Dolan is
reckless. Richard Hall is an elder scoundrel from an even deeper
strata of irresponsibility. Jerry Clark lacks accountability. So
do a lot of men and women seriously investigating the single
most important eventuality of our time.

The preceding radical seditionists are not 'dependable' persons,
Nickel feels. They are without 'responsibility'. They _have_ no
'liability'... Stop! Nickel's (et al) stuffy pontification is
_so_ much prolapsed and expulsive nonsense... steaming monkey
droppings from high up in the canopy. Get to cover!

Moreover, our [immaterial] doctor implores that, "the public
should be outraged"! Not because critical information is
withheld from interested individuals for spurious and
manipulative reasons by an autocratic and authoritarian elite!
No. But that Ufologists, those radical funsters and seditious
gamesters, actually _threaten_ America's culture and society by
making, "a lot of [us] distrust [our] government" and by
"causing invalid suspicions" with regard to currently
'worshipped' "historical figures"! And there we have the dieing
CSICOPian philosophy completely contained in its moldy nutshell
of reproductionist tediousness.

To wit, their "Prime Directive": At all costs to sense and
sensibility, maintain the status quo. End of line.

That's it. That's all they've got. Everything else is stentorian
proclamation, stretched assumption, and pompously insentient axe
grinding.

Pushing 60, a good citizen taxpayer, combat veteran, and
intelligent patriot... I find it repugnant to the _extreme_ that
'Governments' can not earn distrust, or that 'historical
figures' are beyond the suspicions they themselves provoke!
...Even our own governments and historical figures...
_especially_ our own governments and historical figures!

That's not the America I served in a highly decorated military
career. That's not the America I described to my immigrant wife
and only son! That's not the America I internalized in the
freaking Cub Scouts, boys and girls!

Some figures of history have _more_ than earned our suspicion,
and governments, _abundantly_, our distrust, then AND now! If
that is not obvious in extremis... than you're just not keeping
up with current events, you're chewing window sills lathered in
wet lead paint, or you know the truth and _choose_ to turn away.

...Misleading, mislead, or mentally ill... "M" cubed. Sound
familiar? Feel it deviate your septums, skeptibunky spawn,
CSICOPian caperers, and "klasskurtzian" sycophants!

Forget for a moment that it is just _that_ recognition of
provoked 'mistrust', and the 'suspicions' that justifiably
arise, which _provide_ for an enlightening reexamination,
revision, or more realistic result for an evolving human
condition, at _all_! Understand first, reader, that the doctor
[immaterial] Joe Nickel exposes the CFInistic or CSICOPian
"prime directive" in a few chosen words that won't respect
individual sensibility and insensiblely supports a status quo
continuing only to discredit _itself_ as it shortchanges _you_
on a plethora of levels.

"Mistrust of government is dangerous and without support". I
paraphrase the [immaterial] doctor. "Suspicions regarding the
'respected' are dangerous and unsubstantiated." Is it _any_
wonder which side of the bullhorn our Dr. [immaterial] Nickel
prefers to be?

No. Weigh the pros and cons as they were ladled out in last
night's surprisingly credible and balanced treatment of the
mystery surrounding the controversial MJ-12 documents to see for
yourself which is more 'nourishing'. Mistrust of government _is_
justified. Suspicion with regard to historical figures is _not_
without support. Friedman and Dolan were just more convincing,
less presumptive, and more authoritative than Kurtz, Klass, or
Nickel, who were _less_ than authoritative, _entirely_
assumptive, and _profoundly_ less convincing. The former were
credible while the latter were "klasskurtzian," to use that word
one more time.

Verily, and in a manner similar to Dan Rather's "Bush Memo"
imbroglio, even if the MJ-12 documents _are_ fakes... they're
the likely truth, I'm betting. MJ-12 _is_ a reality. Suspicion
_is_ validated. Mistrust _is_ appropriate.

Together they are the true skeptics very _soul_... and an
apparent klasskurtzian antithesis.

alienview.nul -:=A6:-
  www.AlienView.net







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              Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof -

From: Greg Boone Evolbaby.nul
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 15:38:19 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 21:13:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof -


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:00:59 -0500
>Subject: Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof


>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 11:08:15 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof

><snip>

>>I guess being a generalizing, non specific, opinionated blowhard
>>is the latest way to get chicks and jobs nowadays.

>T'would qualify him for the White House as well, if recent events
>inform. :)


ROFLMAO Kyle!

The article should have appeared in the 'Faber College' gazette
or something. Referring to the fictional college from the movie
'Animal House'.


Greg








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                       Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 17:21:39 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 21:26:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Ledger


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:51:04 EDT
>Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile?

>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:55:04 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>>Subject: Are UFOs Hostile?

>>This is an offshoot from the Campeche thread.

>>I am surprised that it may be a widely held belief that UFOs
>>are not a threat or hostile. Is this true? I am sure each of us
>>has read maybe as many as 1000 cases and can recall hostility in
>>many reports with only a small fraction of benevolent cases.

>>IMPORTANT

>>Hostility implies intent, so we must assume for the discussion
>>that the UFOs are consciously directed. Obviously if they are
>>some natural phenomena, they may not be hostile, but may be a
>>threat or dangerous.

><snip>

>>Here is a swag at some classes of hostility.
>>1) Infringing on airspace.
>>2) Affecting nuclear missile sites.
>>3) Affecting aircraft operation negatively.
>>4) Discharging radiation at humans.
>>5) Damaging crops and other property
>>6) Implanting devices in humans against consent
>>7) Abducting humans (kidnapping) 8) Raping humans
>>9) Terrorizing humans.
>>10) Not using their technology to prevent
>>large scale deaths

><snip>

>>Any thoughts or other ideas on this subject?

>Gee James, I can't think of any hostile UFO incidents of note
>unless we do stretch our imaginations and add ancient religious
>texts as UFO stories. In that case, hell yeah they're hostile!
>Throwin' plagues and burning entire cities and other grisly
>stuff would in my book be hostile, but that's only if we stretch
>the imagination.

>I, on the other hand find UFOs probably #99 on a list of 100
>hostile things to run into. Higher on that scale would be things
>like drunk drivers, ex wives, mothers-in-law, crackheads,
>Republicans, Democrats, over enthusiastic UFO believers and
>debunkers, and the most dangerous critter ever to plague
>mankind:

>Teething toddlers with a thing for kneecaps.

>Ain't no monster worse than one of them diapered menaces on a
rampage.

>Seriously. If UFOs had blown up cities, mutilated cows, run
>cops off the road, made women pregnant with mutant babies, it
>wouldn't bat an eye of the press. Yet you let just one UFO
>interrupt the daily soap operas or NASCAR broadcast or even
>worse an episode of Jeopardy, then you would definitely see a
>new definition of hostility. Not from the UFOs but from the
>angry legions of couch potatoes.

>Nothin' says fun like a tv spud with a gun!

James and Greg,

Perhaps hostile is the wrong word. "Indifferent" might be a
better word where the objects interact and inadvertently destroy
or damage an aircraft for instance. Greg look up Frederick
Valentich a pilot in Australia who was badgered on Saturday,
October 11, 1978 by a UFO while in contact with Flight Service
at Moorabbin Airport in Melbourne while over the Bass Straits en
route to King Island in a Cessna 182.

Additionally there is the Ercoupe aircraft incident over water
from the Dominican Republic to Puerto Rico on June 28,1980. In a
similar incident to Valentich's a 30 year old pilot Jose Luis
Maldonado Torres and his passenger a student pilot, were
badgered by a UFO that continuously place itself in front of his
aircraft forcing Torres to turn away from his intended line of
flight. He got disoriented and eventually declared himself lost.
His radio transmissions were picked up by and Iberian Airliner,
Flight 967 from SD to Madrid Spain. He was also monitored and
tracked by a USAF radar station on Puerto Rico. He was last
heard from while traveling at 300 degrees [northwest] away from
Puerto Rico at an altitude of only 1,500 feet. The latter is an
extremely low for a plane flying across a large body of water.
Like Valentich the pilot and passenger were never seen or heard
from again and no trace was ever found of the aircraft.

That's just two.


Don Ledger








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                        Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Smith

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:26:28 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 06:50:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Smith


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:59:37 +0100
>Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile?

>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:55:04 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>>Subject: Are UFOs Hostile?

>>I am surprised that it may be a widely held belief that UFOs are
>>not a threat or hostile. Is this true? I am sure each of us has
>>read maybe as many as 1000 cases and can recall hostility in
>>many reports with only a small fraction of benevolent cases.

>If you believe that some UFOs are highly advanced alien
>spacecraft, then you also have to believe that they are not
>hostile; otherwise we would not be here to argue about them.


I am not one to put aliens on a timetable. If they are waiting
for some reason or doing planned harvesting or whatever, I have
trouble predicting their behavior. However, they do not appear,
based on a large number of cases, to respect our rights.








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                        Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 15:31:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 06:56:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - King


>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:55:04 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>>Subject: Are UFOs Hostile?

><snip>

Hi James,

Let's take these one at a time.

>>Here is a swag at some classes of hostility.
>>1) Infringing on airspace.

>From outer space, any space looks like any other.

If aliens are visiting, they seem to appear in a variety of
places, among them military airspace. You perceive this as
hostile where no intent is implied.

>>2) Affecting nuclear missile sites.

If an alien intelligence has the capability to render our
nuclear forces impotent, and has done nothing but to harmlessly
demonstrate such a capability, there is no hostility implicit in
such a demonstration. Only your perception.

>>3) Affecting aircraft operation negatively.

An alien intelligence might be as ignorant of our technology as
we are of its own, and might not know what effects are imparted
by their mode of transportation, power source, exhaust, etc. Or,
they might not care.

>>4) Discharging radiation at humans.

Our government has exposed service men, civilians, and islanders
to horrible radiation, and this was not considered hostile...
 quite the contrary. Perhaps aliens think it is an acceptable
practice based on observation. Or more likely, it is
anunintentional thing... people in the wrong place at the wr ong
time. UFOs certainly don't irradiate huge crowds or cities at a
time. They typically appear where people are scarce, as if they
really just don't want to interact very much.

>>5) Damaging crops and other property

If you believe that the crop circle phenomenon relates to the
UFO phenomenon, you provide no evidence. Your perception of
hostile intent is based on a faulty premise. Some crop circles
were man-made. Perhaps aliens think it is an acceptable practice
based on observation. Even farmers do not characterize circles
as an indication of hostile intent.

>>6) Implanting devices in humans against consent

Without knowing the ultimate purpose of the implants, one can
only perceive hostility. Our government conducted secret studies
involving disease and chemicals on its own people and did not
consider this hostile... quite the contrary. Perhaps aliens think
it is an acceptable practice based on observation.

>>7) Abducting humans (kidnapping)

See above response. Presumably the abductees are returned to
their place with no ransom being paid, no conditions being met,
voluntarily and with little or no obvious agenda. Not exactly a
textbook example of kidnapping. Law enforcement officials are
rarely contacted.

>>8) Raping humans

This is an area of speculation that deserves more study. It is
premature in the extreme to conclude that alien visitors are in
fact raping human beings. If so, there is little evidence that
the practice is widespread. It is also possible that aliens
think it is an acceptable practice based on observation,
although I think it is unlikely.

>>9) Terrorizing humans.

Perception only...  many people who report UFO sightings and
experiences perceive no hostility at all, and don't feel
terrorized. Those that do feel terrorized are reacting to their
perceptions, not necessarily reacting to real intent. If their
mere 'alien' presence constitutes terrorizing in your mind, then
you are just being bigoted. They can't help how they might look
or be perceived, regardless of intent.

>>10) Not using their technology to prevent
>>large scale deaths

So you say they can kill our nukes, and that's bad. Now you say
if they don't kill our nukes, that's bad. You can now blame the
aliens for human disasters whichever way the whip comes down.
Clever. You now say that refusing to interfere in our affairs
constitutes hostility... most contradictory.

James, I find your thesis that aliens constitute a hostile enemy
to be woefully inadequate, and dangerous in its reliance on
perception.

Your position would require a *shoot first-ask questions later"
mentality which might be popular in today's White House, but
falls well short of the progressive human status to which we
aspire.

Best,

Kyle








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                     Re: The New 'Klasskurtzian' - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 15:40:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 06:58:41 -0400
Subject: Re: The New 'Klasskurtzian' - King


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:07:34 -0500
>Subject: The New 'Klasskurtzian'

<snip>

>Verily, and in a manner similar to Dan Rather's "Bush Memo"
>imbroglio, even if the MJ-12 documents _are_ fakes... they're
>the likely truth, I'm betting. MJ-12 _is_ a reality. Suspicion
>_is_ validated. Mistrust _is_ appropriate.

>Together they are the true skeptics very _soul_... and an
>apparent klasskurtzian antithesis.

Alfred, you speak the truth. Today perhaps more than ever.


Kyle








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                    Re: The New 'Klasskurtzian' - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 15:37:13 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 07:04:00 -0400
Subject: Re: The New 'Klasskurtzian' - Connors


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:07:34 -0500
>Subject: The New 'Klasskurtzian'


The New 'Klasskurtzian'
By Alfred Lehmberg

>October 10's History Channel Documentary by Kathleen Quinn
>regarding "MJ-12" was a remarkable program. I detected an even-
>handedness and balance rarely seen on television about
>ufological issues.

>I won't be getting into the details of Quinn's doc other than
>to say that Dr. [immaterial] Joe Nickel, bless his little corn-
>fed traditionalistic's coal black patrician heart, is credited
>with putting a true face on the total irrationality that is the
>whole of CSICOP's "Klasskurtzian" 'shtick'... pardon the newly
>coined word. It's meaning can be drawn, easily, from its context
>with the forthcoming.

<snip>

You mean intelligent people actually listen to mental rubes like
Joe Nickel orally salivate their synaptic malfunctions?

Not me. A Pelicanist or CSICOPian genetic near-miss, involved in
any media presentation, is not worth the time to stop, look or
listen. I mean, I _do_ have standards! <G>

Glad I missed the MJ-12 documentary. As a matter of fact, I miss
all of them now, since these media-meatheads think it's
impossible to do a program without inserting some brain-dead
bozo with a conflicting view or they will lose objectivity.

As a person interested in Ufology, I want to view documentaries
that are pro-Ufology without a Plug Nickel thrown in to ruin the
experience. Documentarians can then make a documentary that is
all anti-Ufology if they want to pretend to offer balance.

Watching these new, so-called documentaries, on ufological
topics is like watching Sagann's Cosmos with a religious zealot
thrown in to present the Creation theory side of things just so
the program has "balance."


Jeez...

Wendy Connors
www.fadeddiscs.com








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                   Re: Oliver Cromwell's Moonshot - Oberg

From: Jim Oberg <joberg.nul>
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:17:10 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 07:11:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Oliver Cromwell's Moonshot - Oberg


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 07:37:07 -0700
>Subject: Oliver Cromwell's Moonshot

>Source: The Independent - London

>Cromwell's Moonshot: How One Jacobean Scientist Tried To Kick
>Off The Space Race

My sincere thanks to Terry Colvin for relaying this item, which
helped define how little I really knew about space history
esoterica =96 because when I posted it around the 'space history'
web, I got this illuminating and astonishing reply from my
associate Pat Flannery replied:


"I don't know why they are saying this is a new discovery;
Wilkins and his moonflight plans get more than half a page in
Ron Miller's, The Dream Machines, under the years 1638 and 1648;

Here are some excerpts from his work, The Discovery Of A World
In The Moone:

http://e3.uci.edu/clients/bjbecker/ExploringtheCosmos/week2d.html

when he wasn't trying to catapult himself out of the atmosphere,
he was trying to develop ways to write new languages:

http://www.flong.com/dakadaka/images/wilkens.gif

build transparent beehives, plot the course of an invisible
planet, and graphically represent grammar:

http://www.adh.brighton.ac.uk/schoolofdesign/MA.COURSE/AFE/18.gif

Why does this look scarily like explosives surrounding a
Plutonium sphere? Was he working on a proto-Orion drive?

More on this singular individual can be found here:

http://kelty.rice.edu/375/lectures/wilkins0331.html

http://www.crockford.com/wrrrld/wilkins.html

The last is by Jorge Luis Borges... a man who - like Wilkins - I
always suspected of having far too much time on his hands."


Jim Oberg








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                   Re: Oliver Cromwell's Moonshot - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:56:10 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 07:14:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Oliver Cromwell's Moonshot - Hatch


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 07:37:07 -0700
>Subject: Oliver Cromwell's Moonshot

>Source: The Independent - London

>http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/story.jsp?story=570495

>10-10-04

>Cromwell's Moonshot: How One Jacobean Scientist Tried To Kick
>Off The Space Race

<snip>


Thanks Terry:

That is hilarious!

- Larry Hatch









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                     Remember Ufo Hoax Of '47? He Did It

From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex.nul>
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 19:48:17 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 07:21:42 -0400
Subject: Remember Ufo Hoax Of '47? He Did It


Source: Wisconsin State Journal

http://www.madison.com/archives/read.php?ref=wsj:2004:10:11:389414:LOCAL/WISCONS
IN

10-10-04


Remember Ufo Hoax Of '47? He Did It

Autumn Grooms
La Crosse Tribune
Black River Falls

Nearly six decades later, Bob Huntley is
still reluctant to talk about the extraterrestrial prank he
pulled in 1947 on the people of Black River Falls.

He was just trying to create a little summertime excitement, he
explained last week in a telephone interview from his home in
Lexington, Va.

It wasn't supposed to turn into a federal case.

But when a remarkably realistic-looking flying saucer landed on
a field on the day of a big game, that's just what it became.

The Civil Air Patrol flew in an inspector from Milwaukee.

The FBI showed up.

"That was when I really freaked out," said Huntley, 76, after
initially declining to be interviewed.

His cover was blown recently when a cohort sent a letter to the
newspaper detailing the events of July 10, 1947.

"Of course it was a hoax, but its perpetrators have remained
anonymous for some 57 years," wrote La Crosse attorney John
McDonald. "I thought it best to clear up the mystery, to give
credit where credit is due before those who created the saucer
all pass into the great beyond from whence the saucer came."

So though he'd rather let the whole ordeal fade into oblivion,
Huntley shared his recollections of the flying saucer story.

He was 17 at the time. He spent the early part of the month
working after-hours at his grandfather's woodworking and sign-
painting shop in Black River Falls.

The outside of the saucer was made of sign board, and the inside
of balsa wood, with an engine made of old motor and engine
parts, and a photoelectric bulb from an old motion picture
player.

With help from three buddies - Bud Bowler and cousins John and
Dan McDonald - Huntley "crash-landed" the saucer in a location
that was sure to be noticed. The saucer was 4 inches high, 15.5
inches in diameter and weighed a pound and a half.

It was Sigurd Hanson, Black River Falls' city electrician, who
discovered the saucer in the grass at the Jackson County
fairgrounds as he, George Dickie and Aleck Gunderson installed
lighting on the baseball diamond, according to an old edition of
the La Crosse Tribune.

The night before, Huntley and the group of young men had used
shovels to dig up a landing strip for the saucer.

"We had to pick a place where we knew the disc would be found,
and we knew there was a ball game scheduled the next evening,"
Huntley said.

"... (Sig Hanson) was a fine gentleman, and I am very sorry for
whatever awkwardness I must have created," Huntley said of the
city electrician, who now is dead.. "A 17-year-old kid doesn't
think on those terms."

While the town wondered about the flying saucer, rumors
flourished. The Tribune published an Extra edition about the
discovery on July 11, 1947, proclaiming, "Flying Saucer Found on
Black River Grounds."

McDonald said it was "fear, in capital letters and put it in
quotes," that led him to remain quiet about the incident for all
these years. Huntley agreed. "I had no desire to be arrested by
the FBI or to be incarcerated by the Army or anything."

McDonald said the idea to confess came about when he was
cleaning his garage and came across some memorabilia. Among the
items was a Sunday, July 13, 1997, edition of the Tribune with a
headline that read, "BRF boasts own 50-year 'mystery.'"

The story told how the saucer was a hoax that no one had owned
up to. There was speculation as to who was behind the hoax, and
names including Sig Hanson and his son, Jim, who was studying
electrical engineering at UCLA and was home for the summer, were
mentioned.

"I thought (Huntley) should really get credit for it," McDonald
said last week.

The reason for the hoax?

"It was just a way to bring excitement into a small town,"
Huntley said.

Huntley said the saucer was taken to the University of
Minnesota. Officials no doubt discovered quickly that it was not
from outer space, Huntley said. "You're not going to find an RCA
bulb in a spacecraft."

"The last I heard," he said, "it ended up in an Army proving
grounds someplace in Nebraska, maybe Omaha. That was the last I
heard of it."








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                        Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Hicks

From: Simon Hicks <slh.nul>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 08:04:15 +0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 07:29:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Hicks


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:59:37 +0100
>Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile?

>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:55:04 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>>Subject: Are UFOs Hostile?

>>This is an offshoot from the Campeche thread.

>>I am surprised that it may be a widely held belief that UFOs are
>>not a threat or hostile. Is this true? I am sure each of us has
>>read maybe as many as 1000 cases and can recall hostility in
>>many reports with only a small fraction of benevolent cases.

>If you believe that some UFOs are highly advanced alien
>spacecraft, then you also have to believe that they are not
>hostile; otherwise we would not be here to argue about them.


Try convincing any farm animal with that argument...










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                    Mysteries Of Space And Sky Conference

From: Dr. Peter Resta <spr100.nul>
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 21:02:11 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 07:37:54 -0400
Subject: Mysteries Of Space And Sky Conference


Mysteries Of Space And Sky Conference

UFO-related, one day conference outside of Annapolis, Md.
October 30 2004

Annapolis is close to Baltimore & D.C.

Cost depends on residence  - $25.00 if outside of
Anne Arundel County, Maryland

Registration at the door by check only if not paid in advance
9:45 AM

Line up: Beginning at 10 am


Speakers

Keynote: Mysteries of Space & Sky: Past is Present
S. Peter Resta. Ph.D. - conference organizer

Roswell? Yes! - Capt. Robert Durant
(US NAVY, Retired)

Abductions: Who's Involved and Why?
Anna Jamerson

UFOs, Science, and the New Millenium
Rob Swiatek

Men in Black: Just a Halloween Fairy Tale?
Sue Swiatek

The Evolving Mars Story: Evidence for a Former Civilization?
Tom Van Flandern, Ph.D.

---

Registration Information:

Gloria Lighthizer
Anne Arundel Community College
410-777-2055








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                        Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 01:36:24 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 07:42:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Gates


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:59:37 +0100
>Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile?

>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:55:04 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>>Subject: Are UFOs Hostile?

>>This is an offshoot from the Campeche thread.

>>I am surprised that it may be a widely held belief that UFOs are
>>not a threat or hostile. Is this true? I am sure each of us has
>>read maybe as many as 1000 cases and can recall hostility in
>>many reports with only a small fraction of benevolent cases.

>If you believe that some UFOs are highly advanced alien
>spacecraft, then you also have to believe that they are not
>hostile; otherwise we would not be here to argue about them.

Apparently somebody would like to believe that if UFOs are
highly advanced alien spacecraft, then you apparently have to
believe that they are not hostile.

Of course the truth simply is that many so called highly
advanced civilizations, using highly advanced technological
devices can be hostile...depends on the intent.


Cheers,

Robert







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                   Re: The New 'Klasskurtzian' - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 06:52:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 08:26:44 -0400
Subject: Re: The New 'Klasskurtzian' - Lehmberg


>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 15:37:13 -0600
>Subject: Re: The New 'Klasskurtzian'

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:07:34 -0500
>>Subject: The New 'Klasskurtzian'

>The New 'Klasskurtzian'
>By Alfred Lehmberg

>>October 10's History Channel Documentary by Kathleen Quinn
>>regarding "MJ-12" was a remarkable program. I detected an even-
>>handedness and balance rarely seen on television about
>>ufological issues.

>>I won't be getting into the details of Quinn's doc other than
>>to say that Dr. [immaterial] Joe Nickel, bless his little corn-
>>fed traditionalistic's coal black patrician heart, is credited
>>with putting a true face on the total irrationality that is the
>>whole of CSICOP's "Klasskurtzian" 'shtick'... pardon the newly
>>coined word. It's meaning can be drawn, easily, from its context
>>with the forthcoming.

><snip>

>You mean intelligent people actually listen to mental rubes like
>Joe Nickel orally salivate their synaptic malfunctions?

Wow! I'm not sure what you said there, but I'm stangely aroused!
<LOL>

But seriously, consider that he and Dr. McCaca are state of the
art frontmen for their rag-time band. It must be like the Bush
administration over there. <LOL>

>Not me. A Pelicanist or CSICOPian genetic near-miss, involved in
>any media presentation, is not worth the time to stop, look or
>listen. I mean, I _do_ have standards! <G>

Oh - no argument there. Periodically, I enjoy a short game of
"Whack-a-mole," by way of explanation for my indulgence, and Dr.
[immaterial] Nickel came across as especially petulant, arguing
to accept falsehood for the purpose of continuance of the old
paradigms and the stability they pretend. I hadda swing on
him. <g> Friedman, Dolan, and Rodeghier were a pleasure to
listen to, too.

In a sidebar, I hope Stan Friedman comments on the CSICOPian
intimation that he put the documents in the archives, himself.

I'd have their heads off and their literary necks for field
toilets if they'd said that about me. In dueling days I'd have
met them on the street, make no mistake.

>Glad I missed the MJ-12 documentary. As a matter of fact, I miss
>all of them now, since these media-meatheads think it's
>impossible to do a program without inserting some brain-dead
>bozo with a conflicting view or they will lose objectivity.

You may be right... but then I remember the audience is not you
and me but the larger, distracted, and otherwise employed
(innocently uninformed) fence-sitter. It was a wonderful
vehicle to them, I suspect.

>As a person interested in Ufology, I want to view documentaries
>that are pro-Ufology without a Plug Nickel thrown in to ruin the
>experience. Documentarians can then make a documentary that is
>all anti-Ufology if they want to pretend to offer balance.

I think that there is going to be more of that, and soon. It's
a component of the aggregate acceleration of all things.

>Watching these new, so-called documentaries, on ufological
>topics is like watching Sagann's Cosmos with a religious zealot
>thrown in to present the Creation theory side of things just so
>the program has "balance."

Well this one was fairer than that. Both camps were allowed
time, it seemed to me, to state their best cases as well as they
could. Sitting in that audience jury and trying to maintain a
degree of the detached for a just vote ("Papa Joe" can convince
me, his audience, anytime... the moment he betters the arguments
of his opposition), but there is no _way_ I'm going to find for
the klasskurtzian reflexive authoritarian over the guileless
reflective authoritative. Ufology's half of the scale was way
overbalanced. Joe Nickel wouldn't be able to get back if he's
palmed a freaking Buick on his side.

>Jeez...

I'll see your "Jeez", and raise you an "Arrgh, me hearties."
<LOL>

alienview.nul -:=A6:-
www.AlienView.net








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                        Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 07:12:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 08:33:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - King


>From: Simon Hicks <slh.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 08:04:15 +0800
>Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile?

>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:59:37 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile?

>>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:55:04 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>>>Subject: Are UFOs Hostile?

>>>This is an offshoot from the Campeche thread.

>>>I am surprised that it may be a widely held belief that UFOs are
>>>not a threat or hostile. Is this true? I am sure each of us has
>>>read maybe as many as 1000 cases and can recall hostility in
>>>many reports with only a small fraction of benevolent cases.

>>If you believe that some UFOs are highly advanced alien
>>spacecraft, then you also have to believe that they are not
>>hostile; otherwise we would not be here to argue about them.

>Try convincing any farm animal with that argument...

Hi Simon,

Based on observation of what humans do to farm animals, perhaps
the aliens offer a preferred 'solution*', from the animal's
perspective. Think what a farm animal must feel about humans.

Best,

Kyle








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   Oct > Oct 12

                          UFOs in Culhuacan Mexico

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 10:09:31 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 10:56:54 -0400
Subject: UFOs in Culhuacan Mexico


INEXPLICATA
The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
October 12, 2004


Source: Grupo ArgusPR
Date: 0ctober 11, 2004

Mexico: UFOs in Culhuacan

Alfonso Salzar, an aviation technician and consultant to noted
researchers, was the first person to report sightings in the
vicinity of Culhuacan. Apparently [the object sighted] was a
spherical object with a ring around it, similar to the planet
Saturn. Many people turned out to witness the heavenly
phenomenon. The strange object moved very slowly toward Cerro de
la Estrella at around 18:30 hours.

Minutes later, at 18:50 hrs., Salvador Guerrero shot video of a
spherical luminous object heading toward the north. He said that
the UFO emerged from a cloud bank, flew very slowly and at times
appeared to be suspended motionlessly.

Subsequently, at 19:00 hrs., Ana Luisa Cid videotaped a very
large luminous object in the northern reaches of Mexico City.
The video is brief becaus there was a camera malfunction. The
image issued a strong vibration and stopped working. "At first,"
says Ana Luisa, "I thought the battery had run out... but in
fact I don't know what happened, because the camera was
inoperable afterward; perahaps it was all a coincidence. I don't
know, but the vibration was indeed captured on tape."

Numerous reports were also received from persons who were seeing
strange objects in different parts of the city.

As an additional item of information, the National Seismological
Service reported earth tremors with a magnitude of 3.8 on the
Richter scale in Oaxaca and Guerrero.

"Mexico is a country with seismic regions," says Ms. Cid. "We
know that low intensity treamors occur daily. Perhaps there is
no direct relation with the UFO phenomenon, but I believe this
to be important information to be considered within the scope of
an investigation."

NOTE: Photos courtesy of Prof. Ana Luisa Cid. All Rights
Reserved.

===============================================================
Translation (c) 2004 Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special thanks to Jose Martinez, Grupo ArgusPR.








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                        Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 10:31:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 07:40:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - King


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 09:11:14 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile?

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:51:04 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile?

>>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:55:04 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>>>Subject: Are UFOs Hostile?

>>>I am surprised that it may be a widely held belief that UFOs are
>>>not a threat or hostile. Is this true? I am sure each of us has
>>>read maybe as many as 1000 cases and can recall hostility in
>>>many reports with only a small fraction of benevolent cases.

>>I, on the other hand find UFOs probably #99 on a list of 100
>>hostile things to run into. Higher on that scale would be things
>>like drunk drivers, ex wives, mothers-in-law, crackheads,
>>Republicans, Democrats, over enthusiastic UFO believers and
>>debunkers, and the most dangerous critter ever to plague
>>mankind:

>>Teething toddlers with a thing for kneecaps.

>Ha-ha!  But what I mean is hostile in general, not hostile to
>you personally.

Hi James, Greg, others,

Greg restates a point I make in another post. Humans are much
more hostile on a daily basis than UFOs or their occupants.

Keep this in mind as well...  since we do not know with certainty
that UFOs are extra-terrestrial in origin, it is quite possible
that the hostile actions you note were and are perpetrated by
our own military. History would suggest that this is neither a
novel concept, nor one our military would inherently avoid.

In fact, many people take false comfort in believing that UFOs
are military craft of American origin. If their belief is
accurate, what do you make of your list of hostilities, and of
them, which would seem more likely to be human behavior, based
on observation of human history. I submit that the American
government have perpetrated each of the hostile acts you list,
and many on our own people.

Another view is that some UFOs are alien, and some are military.
If this is so, there is much evidence to suggest that the
hostile events are military and the non-hostile ones are real.

If aliens have hostile intent and have the superior technology
to back it up, and are visiting Earth, why the need for secrecy?
Why no... Shock and Awe? If they have hostile intent, why would
some encounters indicate otherwise? Do they have bad moods?

At any rate, my fear of walking down certain notable streets
here in Houston is more deeply based on possible hostility from
humans, rather than from an alien.

Betty Cash, a woman injured and perhaps eventually killed by
injuries she sustained during a UFO encounter, made no judgment
as to the motives of the UFO or its occupants. She certainly did
not ascribe hostile intent. She believed she was just in the
wrong place at the wrong time. She did however, find hostility
in the reaction to her claim that the UFO she saw was *chased"
by a bunch of military helicopters. She was called a liar by the
military, and was left unable to confirm her story by those she
felt certain would be able to explain.

If you walk into a bank, and the guard pulls his revolver and
points it in your direction, you might find this a hostile act.
Only when he fires, and the bank robber whom you did not see
falls harmlessly to the floor behind you, do you realize that
the hostile intent was for your benefit. Perhaps we're just not
seeing the bank robber. You feel protected while the robber
feels the hostility. A matter of perception.

Man... just the thought of a toddler gnawing on my
kneecaps... Geez Greg, that really brought back some parental
memories best left forgotten. <LOL>


Best Regards,

Kyle








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                Re: 'UFO' Spotted Near Fort Wayne - Reynolds

From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 10:40:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 07:44:09 -0400
Subject: Re: 'UFO' Spotted Near Fort Wayne - Reynolds


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 11:47:11 -0300
>Subject: Re: 'UFO' Spotted Near Fort Wayne

>>Source: WISH TV - Channel 8 - Indianapolis, Indiana

>>http://www.wishtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2416065&nav=0Ra7RsUo

>>10-11-04

>>[Image - Video Frame Grab]

>>'UFO' Spotted Near Fort Wayne

>Without seeing the whole video, I suspect this is a short
>duration contrail.


We have the full video clip of the WANE-TV story, with image of
'UFO'.

We can upload it to a server where UFO UpDate readers might
access it.

Let me know where to send it, and I'll do so.

Rich Reynolds
Fort Wayne MediaWatch







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                        Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 11:21:17 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 07:47:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - King


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 07:28:25 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile?

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 15:31:59 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile?

>>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:55:04 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>>>Subject: Are UFOs Hostile?

<snip>

>>James, I find your thesis that aliens constitute a hostile enemy
>>to be woefully inadequate, and dangerous in its reliance on
>>perception.

>I am sorry you don't like it. It seems pretty sound so far.
>Don't color your perception with a preconcieved notion of
>friendly aliens. Aliens that don't give a damn about us are
>about as bad as aliens that wish to harm us.

>>Your position would require a *shoot first-ask questions later"
>>mentality which might be popular in today's White House, but
>>falls well short of the progressive human status to which we
>>aspire.

>Ah, Progressive's! I should have known. I think you should focus
>on species survival (OURS not theirs).

Hi James,

If aliens can read our minds, divine our laws, stop our weather,
rape us at will, shower us with radiation on a whim, kill our
nukes, how is it that our species has survived so long? What
have we done right to earn continued existence?

You argue on one hand that aliens don't care, and that this lack
of caring constitutes hostility. Then you argue that they should
know all our laws, respect our borders, and obey our moral
imperatives. If the aliens don't care, why would they waste the
time to learn about our laws or morals?

If they are as omnipotent as you ascribe, I think they'll have
much more of a problem with people of your ilk than mine.

I'm not sure what your phrase *Progressives...should have known*
is supposed to imply. Do you think that using the word
progressive implies membership in some kind of group, or do you
just like to label things with which you don't agree? The former
reveals an ignorance of language, while the latter reveals a
common refuge from intellectual discourse. I am at a loss to
discern which is the case.

If you posted your list of hostilities in order to generate
discussion, which was its stated aim, is any argument which does
not agree with yours invalid? Or were you simply baiting those
with a contrary opinion into the trap of being labeled and
dismissed?

It is at this point in the discussion where I make my adieus.
Once the labelling begins, the discussion is over.


Best Regards,

Kyle







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                          Secrecy News -- 10/12/04

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 12:03:23 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 07:49:59 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 10/12/04


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 89
October 12, 2004


**      HONORING JOSEPH DARBY
**      SCOPE OF FOIA EXEMPTION FOR SATELLITE IMAGERY LIMITED
**      CONGRESS ENDORSES MEDIA BLACKOUT ON MILITARY COFFINS
**      ILLNESSES AT NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY TO BE PROBED
**      DEFENSE SCIENCE BOARD ON INFORMATION SHARING
**      HILL AIR FORCE BASE REMOVES BLOCK ON FAS WEB SITE


HONORING JOSEPH DARBY

U.S. Army Specialist Joseph Darby displayed exemplary courage in
exposing the human rights abuses perpetrated at Abu Ghraib
prison and is to be commended "for standing up for what is
right," according to language in the 2005 Defense Authorization
Act adopted by the House and Senate on October 9.

"The need to act in accord with one's conscience, risking one's
career and even the esteem of one's colleagues by pursuing what
is right is especially important today," Congress found.
"Specialist Darby deserves the Nation's thanks for speaking up
and for standing up for what is right."

"It is the sense of Congress that (1) the Secretary of Defense
should make every protection available to Army Specialist Joseph
Darby and others who demonstrate such courage; and (2)
Specialist Darby should be commended appropriately by the
Secretary of the Army."

The congressional language did not spell out why Darby would be
in need of protection, or why acting in accord with one's
conscience is "especially important today."

See Section 1094 of the FY 2005 Defense Authorization Act here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2004/hr4200conf.html#1094

Previously undisclosed portions of the Taguba report on Abu
Ghraib were made available last week by the Center for Public
Integrity (www.publicintegrity.org).


SCOPE OF FOIA EXEMPTION FOR SATELLITE IMAGERY LIMITED

Congressional conferees narrowed the scope of a new Freedom of
Information Act exemption for certain categories of commercial
satellite imagery and related products.

As revised, the exemption would apply only to imagery whose sale
to non-government customers is already prohibited "for reasons
of national security."

The original version of the proposed exemption became somewhat
controversial (SN, 09/07/04) because it would have apparently
encompassed a vastly broader set of imagery and imagery-derived
products.

See the final language in section 914 of the 2005 Defense
Authorization Act here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2004/hr4200conf.html#914


CONGRESS ENDORSES MEDIA BLACKOUT ON MILITARY COFFINS

The Department of Defense was correct to prohibit news media
coverage of the transfer of coffins of U.S. military personnel
killed in Iraq or their arrival at Dover Air Force Base,
Congress declared in the new Defense Authorization Act.

The DoD policy serves to protect the privacy of the families and
friends of the deceased, Congress indicated.

Furthermore, "It is the sense of Congress that the Department of
Defense policy regarding no media coverage of the transfer of
the remains of deceased members of the Armed Forces ... is
consistent with United States constitutional guarantees of
freedom of speech and freedom of the press."

Critics of the DoD policy argue that photographs of flag-draped
coffins could not possibly infringe on individual privacy, and
that the prohibition on news media coverage tends to obscure the
human costs of the war in Iraq.

The news media blackout has recently been challenged in
litigation by journalism professor Ralph Begleiter, assisted by
the National Security Archive and the law firm Jenner & Block.

See the new congressional provision in section 1082 of the 2005
Defense Authorization Act here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2004/hr4200conf.html#1082


ILLNESSES AT NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY TO BE PROBED

Employees of the National Security Agency seem to have a
disproportionately high incidence of illnesses, prompting
Congress to seek a study of the matter.

"The [defense authorization] conferees are concerned with
continued reports of work related illnesses among the National
Security Agency (NSA) employees at Fort Meade, Maryland. The
conferees direct the Secretary of Defense to undertake an
epidemiological study and health hazard evaluation related to
NSA buildings at Fort Meade."

See the report language from the 2005 Defense Authorization Act
here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2004/hr4200conf.html#nsasick


DEFENSE SCIENCE BOARD ON INFORMATION SHARING

The importance of information sharing in ensuring homeland
security is the subject of an extended rumination from the
Defense Science Board, which reviewed the obstacles to sharing
and proposed some largely familiar solutions.

The DSB found, unsurprisingly, that "classification procedures
encourage over-classification and inhibit efficient,
standardized processes such as tear sheets for declassifying and
sharing information."

The new DSB report called among other things for increased
reliance on "sensitive but unclassified" networks for
information sharing. Such sharing does not extend to public
disclosure, and the public is relegated to the role of passive
spectator in homeland security rather than stakeholder.

See "DoD Roles and Missions in Homeland Security," Volume II-B,
Information, Sharing and Analysis Panel Report, dated September
2004 (1.6 MB PDF file):

http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/dod/dsb/homelandv2b.pdf


HILL AIR FORCE BASE REMOVES BLOCK ON FAS WEB SITE

Last week, employees at Hill Air Force Base in Utah found that
their access to the Federation of American Scientists web site
had been blocked on grounds that it contained objectionable
"political/religious material" (SN, 10/07/04).

But within a day, the block was lifted in response to employee
complaints.

"Fas.org is now open and available to be accessed," Hill AFB
network security wrote.

"They were very helpful and it appears they resolved the issue
promptly," one such employee wrote to Secrecy News.

A UPI story on the matter didn't hurt either.  See "Military
Base Blocks Anti-Secrecy Website," United Press International,
October 7:

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20041007-053853-8375r.htm



_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

Secrecy News has an RSS feed at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood.nul
voice:  (202) 454-4691








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                       Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 12:48:32 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 07:54:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Sparks


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 15:31:59 -0500
>Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile?

>>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:55:04 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>>>Subject: Are UFOs Hostile?

<snip>

>>>4) Discharging radiation at humans.

>Our government has exposed service men, civilians, and islanders
>to horrible radiation, and this was not considered hostile...
>quite the contrary. Perhaps aliens think it is an acceptable
>practice based on observation. Or more likely, it is
>anunintentional thing... people in the wrong place at the wr ong
>time. UFOs certainly don't irradiate huge crowds or cities at a
>time.

<snip>

Hi Kyle,

Normally I agree with many of your keen observations but here I
must respectfully and totally disagree. Without going into all
your responses basically the upshot is that you have set things
up so that the aliens cannot possibly demonstrate hostility
except possibly by killing "huge crowds." That just isn't
reasonable. By that reasoning only Osama bin Laden has
demonstrated "hostility" because he killed 3,000 on 9-11, and
other terrorists with smaller body counts haven't displayed
"hostility." You are "blaming the victim" in making excuses for
the aliens.

James has articulated a good list of hostility signs and
indicators and I just don't buy your alien-apologist responses.
They have no business messing with our business. I think if you
really dug down and studied the hostility incidents such as say
Ft. Itaipu, Brazil, Nov. 4, 1957, you would find basically
military attack, which is a classic sign of hostility. Assuming
of course these incidents are true and factual, just taking them
at face value indicates hostility.


Brad Sparks








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                        Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Smith

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 13:25:40 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 08:03:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Smith


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 07:12:20 -0500
>Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile?

>>From: Simon Hicks <slh.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 08:04:15 +0800
>>Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile?

>>Try convincing any farm animal with that argument...

>Based on observation of what humans do to farm animals, perhaps
>the aliens offer a preferred 'solution', from the animal's
>perspective. Think what a farm animal must feel about humans.

Law abiding humans don't steal other people's cattle, cut out
rectums/eyes/tongue and then drop the cattle right back where it
was taken. Oh yes, first they electrify them.

The SPCA and PETA should come down hard on aliens/UFOs. I agree
that it is not nice to torture animals and I would prefer that
we grew our meat in Petri dishes instead of having to kill
animals. But I think most cow killings are supposed to be done
humanely with a bullet shot in the head. Anyway, we should hold
these supposedly advanced aliens to a little more progressive
standard. Otherwise, they will want _our_ rectums.








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                        Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Smith

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 13:45:21 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 08:05:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Smith


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 07:19:52 -0500
>Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile?

>>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 01:36:24 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile?


>>If you believe that some UFOs are highly advanced alien
>>spacecraft, then you also have to believe that they are not
>>hostile; otherwise we would not be here to argue about them.

>Apparently somebody would like to believe that if UFOs are
>highly advanced alien spacecraft, then you apparently have to
>believe that they are not hostile.

>Of course the truth simply is that many so called highly
>advanced civilizations, using highly advanced technological
>devices can be hostile...depends on the intent.

>If you gauge intent by observing behavior, it is at least
>premature to claim hostile intent. Any cities been vaporized
>since 1947?

Your definition of hostile behavior requires very extreme
actions. Disregarding ancient stories of cities leveled by alien
craft, you are right, there are no recent stories. But what is
needed is to expand your definition of hostile behavior.

>For every report of abduction or animal mutilation, there are
>dozens of reports which do not include any hint of hostile
>intent.

For every kidnaping/murder (or rape) report, there are 100's of
just kidnapings with no murder (or rape). So the perps can't be
so bad , in general.

>If an advanced civilization has been visiting here for
>centuries, they seem to have little interest in killing us,
>eating us, or otherwise wiping us off the mortal coil.

I am only observing their behavior and assuming that they can
log onto the Internet. How many "Abduct Me and Anal Probe Me"
web sites are there? They obviously don't care about our
feelings, need, wants or desires. Their purpose is unclear, but
they must need the "herd" to not be spooked. Why blast us to
kingdom come if we have some resource they had to travel
lightyears to get? You know how costly spacetravel is? It is not
commercial for us to go anywhere in the solar system because
even if we found a asteroid of solid gold, the cost of space
travel is enormous and it wouldn't be worth it. The only likely
thing they need is biological, so why kill the host? Eating us?
How primitive! They probably have figured out how to sythesize
directly from the Sun. But maybe interesting biological blends
(for some purpose) is what they want.

>If they have been observing us for that time, it is a wonder we
>haven't been exterminated for our inability to get along with
>our own kind, let alone our perception that anything out of the
>ordinary constitutes a threat.

No, we are a resource to them. They don't care about us getting
along or any of our behavior, they likely think we are just
strengthening the "herd" by "culling/wars".

>We've been allowed to create
>weapons that threaten our very existence. We pose a much greater
>and demonstrated threat to ourselves than any *alien race* has
>demonstrated thus far.

I agree that the threat has not been "demonstrated". And if they
do their jobs well enough, it will never be "demonstrated". Just
a herd of complacent humans and the alien parasites quietly
sucking away what they value (whatever that is).

Given this scenario, aliens would likely prevent global war and
killer asteriod scenarios to prevent loss of their "stock".








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                Re: 'UFO' Spotted Near Fort Wayne - Reynolds

From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 14:04:29 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 08:07:19 -0400
Subject: Re: 'UFO' Spotted Near Fort Wayne - Reynolds


I've contacted WANE-TV to see if they can put the UFO segment
online at their website, for download as a streaming video. (I'm
awaiting a call-back.)

Meanwhile, I've uploaded the news segment, consisting of the
video and interviews about it (around 3 minutes in length), to a
website we have:

http://www.wildesociety.org

The download will take a very long time via broadband and
especially for those with dial-up; the file is 89 megs in size,
but it's the complete WANE news segment as aired.


Rich Reynolds
Fort Wayne MediaWatch











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                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 41

From: John Hayes <John.nul>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 20:11:14 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 08:10:33 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 41


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan.nul>
==========================

      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 9, Number 41
October 13, 2004
Editor: Joseph Trainor

E-mail: Masiniaigan.nul
Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/


"ALIEN INVASION" SENDS
VILLAGERS FLEEING IN
ROMANIA

      "A Romanian village was left deserted after its
inhabitants fled in panic after mistaking disco lights in
a nearby town for an alien invasion."
      "Villagers in Cristinesti, in eastern Romania,
thought they were under attack by aliens when they saw
bright, multi-colored lights in the sky and started
leaving the village en masse."
      "But police who were called out to investigate
discovered the lights were coming from an open-air disco
in the town of Herta, near the Ukrainian border, the daily
(newspaper) Adevarul reported."
      "They persuaded the villagers to eventually return to
their homes."
      "Costel Roman, one of the villagers, said, 'Everybody
was out on the streets and wondering what to do if aliens
landed.  We believed that we were seeing UFOs, and some
old legends from around here about clocks stopping,
animals going crazy and a previous UFO landing in the area
suddenly came to our minds.  We were terrified.'"
      "He added, 'We were so happy when we heard we had
escaped an alien invasion.'"  (See the Romanian newspaper
Adevarul for October 5, 2004, "Fleeing villagers mistook
disco lights for aliens."  Many thanks to Jim Hickman,
executive director of Skywatch International for this news
story.)

INDIAN SCIENTIST SEES A UFO
IN THE HIMALAYAS

      "A space scientist claims to have come across an
unidentified flying object during a scientific expedition
in Himachal Pradesh" state in northern India.
      "Dr. Anil V. Kulkarni of ISRO's Space Application
Centre saw the object on the morning of (Monday) September
27 (2004) while leading the expedition in the Samudra Tapu
glacier region near Chandratal" in the Himalayas "4,200
metres (14,000 feet--J.T.) above sea level.  Other members
of the team also witnessed the unusual object."
      "The sighting had been reported to authorities in
Kullu-Manali and New Delhi, and the Ahmedabad Space Centre
is analysing the photographs.  While Kulkarni says it's
unlikely that the object he saw was a weather balloon
(though it looked like one--Dinesh C. Sharma), a member of
his team felt the 'UFO' could be an espionage device."
      "'We saw the bright white object moving towards our
camp at about 7 a.m.  It moved down the hilltop
(mountainside in the USA--J.T.) towards the bottom.  Eight
persons from our party moved towards it, but the object
kept moving towards us.  Then some porters made a noise,
and it started retreating in the same direction without
turning around.  After a while, it turned and started to
move towards the hilltop,' said Kulkarni on his return
from Kullu-Manali."
      "He said, 'The background was rocky, so we could see
the white object very clearly.  It was about 0.9 to 1.3
metres (3 to 4 feet) tall, and balloons were attached to
the head.  One was red and the rest were white.  It had
what looked like two legs, and it looked as if it was
floating a few inches above the ground.'"
      "Since it was early morning, there was mountain
shadow in the region.  'The moment it came into contact
with solar radiation (sunlight) its colour changed to
black.  Then it took off vertically and moved along the
ridge for about three to four minutes in a southerly
direction.  Soon after, the colour changed back to white,
and it moved towards our camp.  It remained stationary
overhead for three to four minutes and moved towards a
northerly direction and disappeared,' the scientist said."
      "Kulkarni rules out the possibility of the object
being an experimental balloon."
      "'The object moved in a slanting direction without
touching the hill.  It also changed colour and was moving
in a direction different to the prevailing wind.  All this
suggests that the object could not have been a weather
balloon,'" he added.
      On Tuesday, October 5, 2004, at 10:20 p.m., a UFO was
seen over the city of Jaipur, in India's Rajasthan state.
Eyewitness Sanket Sharma reported, "I'm an amateur
astronomer and have been studying the skies for years.  I
have formed a habit of looking at the skies for a few
minutes every night when I park my car.  I was in for a
surprise today (Tuesday, October 5, 2004) when, after
parking the car, I looked up in the sky and found a rather
big object with several lights below it.  It came from a
northeasterly direction and went straight towards the
southwest.  It was not moving very fast."
      "It was shaped like a triangle or boomerang with
lights installed along the edges.  Some of the lights were
focused in different directions like it was searching for
something.  I ran inside and called out my mom and dad,
but unfortunately, by the time they had come, it was gone.
I saw it for a good five to six seconds."
      "The body (fuselage) seemed black, and it was shaped
like a triangle, a boomerang or an American Stealth bomber
with about six to eight bright lights along the edges.  I
cannot estimate its height and speed precisely, but it was
extremely low for a flying machine."
      Jaipur is about 200 kilometers (120 miles) southwest
of New Delhi, the capital of India.  (See the Hindustan
Times for October 2, 2004, "A balloon, a spy-sat or a
UFO?"  Many thanks to Prasant Solomon of UFO India and Jim
Hickman, executive director of Skywatch International, for
this newspaper article.  The Jaipur sighting was an Email
Form Report.)


SASKATCHEWAN FAMILY
SEES A UFO NEAR THE
BIG DIPPER STARGATE

      On Wednesday, August 25, 2004, at 11 p.m., eyewitness
T.M. reported, "We were houseboating on Tobin Lake" in
northern Saskatchewan province, Canada, "and were docked
for the night.  It was about 11 p.m., and we were sitting
by a campfire when I had a brief but unforgettable
experience."
      "I had been living down south for many years and was
excited about the bright stars and was looking for the Big
Dipper (constellation Ursa Major --J.T.) when I saw an
extremely bright star and said to my group, 'Wow!  That
star is really bright!  Look...now it's moving.'  And by
the time they looked, it had zipped out of sight."
      "What I saw was a bright light that was a bit
brighter than any star and moved slowly from east to west
and then abruptly stopped and went super-fast due north."
      "There is no way, first of all, that any plane could
have moved that fast, and not to mention that there aren't
too many planes or jets in northern Saskatchewan.  I am
submitting this late because I can't get it out of my mind
and am hoping someone else has seen something similar."
      Tobin Lake is on Provincial Highway 35, located about
120 miles (200 kilometers) northeast of Saskatoon.  (Email
Form Report)
(Editor's Note:  Amateur astronomer Ted Anderson also
reported "heavy UFO activity" near the stargate in Ursa
Major during August 2004.)


DAYLIGHT DISC SIGHTED IN
HARLOW, ESSEX, UK

      On Thursday, October 7, 2004, at 11:30 a.m., Pat
Campion was outdoors at her home in Harlow, Essex, UK and
reported, "Whilst viewing a normal plane up high in the
sky" to the south "another object came into view, which at
first appeared to be a plane but had no vapour stream
(condensation trail or contrail  in the USA--J.T.) as it
crossed the path of the plane I was first observing. Then,
as a small cloud, which obscured my view for about five
seconds, had passed by, the object vanished
unexplainably."
      Pat described the object as "Grey, circular, at a
height of 30,000 feet (9,000 meters) similar to a plane."
      "I never reported on anything before, and this makes
me feel a bit silly, but I know what I saw.  If it was an
aeroplane, then it was no ordinary plane.  It looked like
no other."
      "The closest likeness I can relate it to is observing
a satellite in the clear night sky and, just as it passes
over, the thing disappears.  It was a clear sunny day with
a blue sky and only a few clouds, and the object was a bit
larger than a satellite, and I did not have to strain my
eyes to see it."  (Email Form Report)


SAUCER IN THE BRONX

      On Friday, October 1, 2004, at 5:46 a.m., Richard
A.L. reported, "I was standing on the platform of the
Buhre Avenue train station" in the Pelham Bay section of
the Bronx, one of the five boroughs of New York City
"waiting for the Number 6 train.  I was facing east,
looking up into the stars as it was a clear, crisp
morning, still dark out.  As I was looking up, I noticed a
small, silver, round disc moving very, very slowly.  Then,
after a few seconds, it shot upward very quickly, then
disappeared into the sky."  (Email Form Report)


TRIANGULAR UFO SIGHTED
OVER BOISE, IDAHO

      On Monday, October 4, 2004, at 9:50 p.m., Brad Mather
reported, "I caught an object in my peripheral vision,
coming over the house.  Turned about 40 degrees very
quickly (two-and-a-half to three seconds--B.M.)  I lost
sight of the object in the trees.  Left no 'tail' like
meteors do.  Could have been a high skimmer but not like
any meteor I've ever seen.  I was curious if anybody else
saw it."
      Brad described the UFO as "three points of light,
triangular, would 'fit' inside the full moon.  No
describable body. (Maybe) three separate objects?
Traveled in a straight line (but) nothing to gauge
altitude or velocity by."  (Email Form Report)


NEW CATTLE MUTILATION
REPORTED IN ARGENTINA

      A new case of cattle mutilation was reported in a
rural area south of General Acha, a small city in
Argentina's La Pampa province.
      "At the rural estate known as Hucal, located south of
General Acha in La Pampa (province), a total of three
Aberdeen Angus cows was discovered on" three separate
days--Friday, August 6; Thursday, August 12; and Thursday,
August 26, 2004.
      According to Planeta UFO, "the animals were missing
their udders, ears, eyes, entire tongues and also showed
mutilations in their maxillaries (jawbones--J.T.).  The
state in which these animals were found are similar to
those previous cases" in La Pampa province "and which
destroyed 1,300 beef cattle during 2002 and 2003."
(See Planeta UFO for October 6, 2004, "Mutilated cows in
La Pampa."  Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales y Raul Oscar
Chaves para estas noticias.)


CROP CIRCLE DISCOVERED
IN NOYAN, QUEBEC, CANADA

      "A crop circle formation measuring 20 metres (66
feet) in diameter" was discovered in Noyan, Quebec
province, Canada.  It was the fourteenth crop circle
formation found in Canada during 2004.
      "The crop circle was first reported (Saturday)
September 11, 2004 in Le Canada Francais newspaper,"
reported Paul Anderson of Canadian Crop Circle Research
Network.  "There was a radial lay of plants from the
centre outward to the edge of the circle.  An
investigation by CCCRN is now in progress."  (Many thanks
to Paul Anderson of CCCRN for this news story.)



MYSTERIOUS HORSE DEATHS
REPORTED IN MINNESOTA

      The mysterious deaths of 11 horses in Madelia,
Minnesota (population 2,340) has veterinarians puzzled.
      "Veterinarians and university researchers are still
trying to determine why 11 of Ann Hoppe's 32 horses
suddenly died last week."
      "'That's the hardest part,' Hoppe said, 'The
(veterinarians) were just absolutely dumbfounded...They
thought they would find obvious signs when they got into
the autopsy.  They haven't found that yet.'"
      "On (Monday) Sept. 27 (2004), three of Hoppe's horses
became ill.  Veterinarians from New Ulm (population
13,594) couldn't determine the cause of the sickness.  The
next day, those horses and eight others died.  The vets
concluded that some kind of poison was responsible because
of the quick onset of symptoms."
      "Hoppe said the veterinarians suggested white
snakeroot as a culprit, but other officials aren't so
sure."
      Madelia, Minn. is just west of Highway 15 in Watonwan
County, located about 103 miles (165 kilometers) southwest
of Minneapolis.  (See the Duluth, Minn. News-Tribune for
October 6, 2004, "Death of 11 horses remains mystery.")


MERCURY 7 ASTRONAUT
GORDON COOPER DIES

      "Gordon Cooper, one of the (USA's) original Mercury 7
astronauts died Monday," October 4, 2004, NASA announced.
He was 77.
      "Cooper flew the sixth and final flight of the
Mercury program--in a spacecraft known as Faith 7--in May
1963, becoming the first astronaut to sleep in space
during more than 34 hours and 22 orbits of the Earth."
      "Cooper's death leaves only three living Mercury
astronauts: John Glenn, Scott Carpenter and Wally Schirra.
These men, selected in spring 1959 as the inaugural class
of astronauts, were instant celebrities, girding to win
the space race against the Soviet Union."
      In 1951, Cooper, then a U.S. Air Force fighter pilot
stationed in Germany, witnessed the speedy overflight of a
silver daylight disc UFO.
      NASA did not release a cause of death for Cooper, who
lived in Ventura, California.  He is survived by his wife,
Susan, and two daughters."
      "In a statement released by" NASA, "National
Aeronautics and Space Administration chief Sean O'Keefe
praised Cooper and extended condolences to his family."
      "'As one of the original seven Mercury astronauts,
Gordon Cooper was one of the faces of America's fledgling
space program,' O'Keefe said, 'He truly portrayed the
right stuff, and he helped gain the backing and enthusiasm
of the American public so critical for the spirit of
exploration.'"
      "The youngest of the Mercury group, Cooper completed
a 1963 flight that was more than three times longer than
any American mission before it."
      "In 1965, he and astronaut Charles Conrad Jr. flew an
eight-day mission," Gemini V, "beset with problems."
      "Cooper left NASA and retired from the Air Force in
1970.  He worked in a number of industries, including as
vice president for research and development for the EPCOT
theme park" in Florida.  (See the Duluth, Minn. News-
Tribune for October 5, 2004, "Original Mercury 7 astronaut
Gordon Cooper was first to sleep in space," page 5A.)


SPIRIT AND OPPORTUNITY
STILL ALIVE AND ROVING

      "NASA's Mars rovers have lasted longer than expected,
but the space agency won't let them rest on their
laurels."
      "Already on the second extension of their mission,
rovers Spirit and Opportunity have lasted so long that
mission scientists have left NASA's Jet Propulsion
Laboratory in Pasadena, California and returned to their
own institutions, working via telephone and video
conferences and remote networking."
      "Since landing on opposite sides of Mars in January
(2004), both six-wheel robots have found evidence of water
in the planet's past--including new discoveries of rocks
with polygon-shaped fractures that could indicate two eras
of water activity in a crater named Endurance."
      "The rovers are still capable of work, and
controllers may even have Opportunity leave Endurance
Crater soon via a 25- to 30-degree slope dubbed 'escape
hatch.'"
      "The rovers together have sent 50,000 images to
Earth."  (See USA Today for October 11, 2004, "Mars rovers
keep going and going...," page 7D.)



SPY BLIMP APPEARS OVER
WASHINGTON, D.C.

      "A whale-sized naked white blimp hovered over the
nation's capital last week, testing high-tech surveillance
gear and unnerving some Washingtonians."
      "'It didn't have any markings on it.  I didn't know
what it was doing,' said Amy Marks, who lives in
Washington and works for the National Organization for
Women.  'It was pretty strange.'"
      "The Army leased the 178-foot (54-meter) airship from
the American Blimp Corp. and mounted sensors and infrared
and electro-optical cameras on it, to test its utility to
detect possibly threatening ground movements."
      "The blimp could provide real-time images for the
surveillance of pipelines, shipping channels and ports,
according to an Army statement.  It also could help catch
or deter anyone planting roadside explosives."
      "'What we're looking at is just a proof of concept,'
said Navy Commander Mike Giauque, who's working on the
project with the Army's Air, Space and Missile Defense
Office in Huntsville," Alabama.
      "Cameras and sensors that provide security for U.S.
troop encampments in Iraq and Afghanistan are mounted on
platforms or small, tethered balloons."
      "Mounting the cameras and sensors on blimps, Giauque
said, would give the system much more range.  'You
wouldn't just have your sensor sitting outside your camp--
it would give you that mobility.'"
      "James Thiele, the president of American Blimp, which
is based in Hillsboro, Oregon, said he hoped the
military's interest was a sign of the long-ignored blimp's
renaissance in military circles.  It has been proposed for
border-security patrols, too, and it could be used in
urban counterterrorism surveillance, although the Army has
no plans for domestic use."
      "Unlike helicopters and other aircraft, blimps can
remain in the air for several days while consuming little
fuel, Thiele said.  They're all but immune to puncture
wounds because they're so big and the pressure of the
helium that keeps them afloat is so low."
      "When you combine some of the unique characteristics
of an airship with the new surveillance technology, it's
got a pretty incredible potential,' Thiele said."
(Editor's Comment:  You also get scenes straight out of
Michael Moorcock's 1973 science fiction novel, The Warlord
of the Air.  Blimps could conceivably take over the New
World Order's 24/7 aerial surveillance duties, freeing up
the black helicopters for a combat role.)
      "'Since 9/11, there's certainly been a more open mind
about any technology that works,'" Thiele added.
      "The blimp, which also cruised over Chesapeake Bay to
test its utility in shipping surveillance, heads to
Huntsville next for further tests."  (See the Duluth,
Minn. News-Tribune for October 3, 2004, "Spy blimp test
makes some Washingtonians jittery," page 19A.)



Report From the Editor

      If you haven't seen it yet, don't miss Sky Captain
and the World of Tomorrow.  This CGI-fest is truly "the
movie for the nerds, by the nerds."  It has the look and
feel of a "lost sci-fi film" from the 1930s.  Among the
scenes that me laugh were the miniaturized elephant
(similar to a scene in Dr. Cyclops, 1940); the underwater
wreck of the S.S. Venture (from King Kong, 1933); and the
partially-submerged dinosaur on Dr. Totenkopf's island
(primordial Dagobah in The Empire Strikes Back, 1980).
      The Day After Tomorrow is now out on DVD, joining
Fahrenheit 911 and Scooby Doo 2: Monsters Unleashed on the
shelves.  I can't decide which scene is funnier--Attorney
General John Ashcroft trying to sing like Mel Torme, or
Scooby on the dance floor at the Faux Ghost.


 From the UFO Files...

1908: RAGGEDY ANNE
            IN SPACE

      I came across this odd little case while researching
the UFO flap in the USA's six New England states during
October 1908.  Just three days before a black spherical
UFO was sighted in Bridgewater, Massachusetts by John E.
Flynn and Philip S. Prophett, there was this strange
disappearance in Walpole, Mass., just 14 miles (23
kilometers) to the northwest.
      Here it is:
      "Tired and bedraggled after their all-night search,
the 250 men who beat the bushes in this vicinity returned
today (October 28, 1908) without finding a trace of pretty
little three-year-old Emma Schneider, who disappeared
yesterday (October 27, 2004).  In spite of the fact that
they are pretty well exhausted, the search was revived
again."
      "The sympathy of the whole town has been evoked for
John and Emma Schneider, parents of the child.  The little
one is a great favorite, and the townspeople took her
strange disappearance to heart and promise to remain on
the hunt until she has been located, no matter how long
this may take."
      "All yesterday morning, the little girl played about
the yard of her house on Norfolk Street" in Walpole, Mass.
"with her (Raggedy Anne) doll, toys and kitten.  In the
afternoon, a group of gypsies passed the place, yet Mrs.
Schneider thought nothing of it.  A short while later, she
looked for little Emma, who could not be found.  Then the
frantic mother ran and gave the alarm.  The town and
church bells were rung, calling out the entire populace."
      "When the facts of the case became known, search was
immediately begun, and a body of men, thinking perhaps the
little one had strayed into the cedar swamp near the
house, scattered and went through it, going over every
inch of ground without finding a single clew that gave an
inkling as to the whereabouts of the child."
      "Early today (October 28, 1908), in another part of
the forest was found a little kitten crying and straying,
thoroughly bewildered.  This gave a ray of hope as it was
thought that the child had carried her pet with her.  The
search was renewed with renewed vigor but nothing
resulted."
      "While the woods were being searched by the
volunteers, the police officers of the town started off
after the gypsies.  They trailed them (south) for some
distance and arrived at the conclusion that they were
camped somewhere in Mansfield.  The chances are that the
camp will be visited sometime today, although the
searching of the woods, too, will be continued."
      "When the little girl was last seen, she had on blue
(denim) overalls, such as children wear while playing,
black shoes and no hat.  She is described as having blue
eyes and light hair.  On her there is a scratch received
in playing."
      Just as hopes of finding the girl began to fade, Emma
made a startling reappearance.
      "After a search all night Tuesday and the greater
part of today (October 28, 1908), Emma Schneider, 3 years
old, was found in a swamp about a mile and a half from her
home.  The child was suffering somewhat from hunger and
exposure but was otherwise all right."
      "Her tiny face wan and white from 34 hours' exposure
in the dismal cedar swamp where she had strayed, Emma
Schneider, 3 years old, was returned to her anguished
mother at three o'clock yesterday afternoon (October 28,
1908) by Fireman William Donohue, who found the child
after an all-night and all-day search by the (Walpole)
police and fire department and 300 citizens."
      "Around the mother and the big fireman crowded the
army of searchers, and the weeping woman clasped her child
to her breast and covered the little upturned face with
kisses, hats were thrown in the air, and a mighty cheer
burst forth.  In her moment of supreme joy, the mother
fainted."
      "Until the child recovers from her fright and
exhaustion, how she came to be lost in the cedar swamp
cannot be told, and even then her baby prattle may not
fully explain the mystery."
      Emma's beloved doll, Raggedy Anne, remained missing.
      As I pointed out in my Fortean Studies article on the
1908 UFO flap, "The day before Emma Schneider went
missing, two boys, Charles Kirby and Edward Murphy, both
aged nine, became lost in the woods in Holliston, Mass.
The boys were found after three hours by local police
officers and 50 volunteers.  This party searched a wooded
area three times as large and far more rural than Emma's
neighborhood in Walpole.  Yet somehow little Emma managed
to elude her 300-man search party for 34 hours."
      The Emma Schneider case properly belongs to a
category that Fortean researcher Bob Rickard calls Taken
Away and Brought Back (TABB).  There is no real proof that
she was abducted by aliens.
      But I can't help but wonder if Emma, at age 72,
having taken her grandchildren to see the premiere of Star
Wars in 1977, experienced a strange inexplicable feeling
of deja vu as she watched the movie.
     One other thing--Walpole, Mass. is also famous for the
disappearance of Peter Rugg and his daughter in the
Eighteenth Century.  Rugg has entered Bay State folklore
as "the man who'll never return."  But this wasn't a TABB
case.  Pete and his daughter were "taken away"...period!
(See Fortean Studies - Volume 3, "Monkey Business: The New
England UFO Flap of 1908" by Joseph Trainor, John Brown
Publishing, London, 1996, pages 270 and 271.  See also the
Attleboro, Mass. Sun for October 28, 1908, "Hundreds
Search All Night for Little Girl," and for October 29,
1908, "Walpole Child is Found in Swamp;" and the
Pawtucket, R.I. Times for October 29, 1908, "Child Found,"
page 2.)

      Well, that's it for this week.  Join us in seven days
for more UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the
planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home-
-UFO Roundup."  See you next time!

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2004 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved.  Readers may post news items from UFO
Roundup on their Web sites or in news groups provided that
they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list
the date of issue in which the item first appeared.

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan.nul>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://www.ufoinfo.com/submit/sightings.shtml

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UFOINFO: http://www.ufoinfo.com

Official Archives for UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian
UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine
plus archives of Humanoid Sighting Reports (Albert
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   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Oct > Oct 13

                   Re: The New 'Klasskurtzian' - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 18:53:29 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 08:20:41 -0400
Subject: Re: The New 'Klasskurtzian' - Friedman


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 06:52:14 -0500
>Subject: Re: The New 'Klasskurtzian'

>>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 15:37:13 -0600
>>Subject: Re: The New 'Klasskurtzian'

>>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:07:34 -0500
>>>Subject: The New 'Klasskurtzian'

>>>The New 'Klasskurtzian'
>>>By Alfred Lehmberg

>>>October 10's History Channel Documentary by Kathleen Quinn
>>>regarding "MJ-12" was a remarkable program. I detected an even-
>>>handedness and balance rarely seen on television about
>>>ufological issues.

>>>I won't be getting into the details of Quinn's doc other than
>>>to say that Dr. [immaterial] Joe Nickel, bless his little corn-
>>>fed traditionalistic's coal black patrician heart, is credited
>>>with putting a true face on the total irrationality that is the
>>>whole of CSICOP's "Klasskurtzian" 'shtick'... pardon the newly
>>>coined word. It's meaning can be drawn, easily, from its context
>>>with the forthcoming.

><snip>

>>You mean intelligent people actually listen to mental rubes like
>>Joe Nickel orally salivate their synaptic malfunctions?
>
>Wow! I'm not sure what you said there, but I'm stangely aroused!
><LOL>
>
>But seriously, consider that he and Dr. McCaca are state of the
>art frontmen for their rag-time band. It must be like the Bush
>administration over there. <LOL>
>
>>Not me. A Pelicanist or CSICOPian genetic near-miss, involved in
>>any media presentation, is not worth the time to stop, look or
>>listen. I mean, I _do_ have standards! <G>
>
>Oh - no argument there. Periodically, I enjoy a short game of
>"Whack-a-mole," by way of explanation for my indulgence, and Dr.
>[immaterial] Nickel came across as especially petulant, arguing
>to accept falsehood for the purpose of continuance of the old
>paradigms and the stability they pretend. I hadda swing on
>him. <g> Friedman, Dolan, and Rodeghier were a pleasure to
>listen to, too.
>
>In a sidebar, I hope Stan Friedman comments on the CSICOPian
>intimation that he put the documents in the archives, himself.

<snip>

I can't somment until I see the program. The US History Channel
isn't shown here in Canada. My son taped it for me and I should
see it by next week. I like that Klasskurtzian term.

Based on the time Nickel and I were on with Errol one Saturday
night, he surely wasn't scientific... not surprising since his 3
degrees are in English.

It will be interesting to see his response to the new hard cover
book, The Braxton County Monster: The Coverup of the Flatwoods
Monster Revealed, by Frank Feschino, Jr.

I wrote the foreward and epilogue, taking note of Joe Nickel's
labelling the monster a 6' Barn owl.

Official pub date is October 16. I do have some copies available
now at $30.+ 3.50 for shipping from me at:

POB 958,
Houlton, ME
04730-0958




Stan Friedman







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Oct > Oct 13

               HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 10-12-04

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO Research <hbccufo.nul>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 22:20:35 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 08:25:48 -0400
Subject: HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 10-12-04


HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings

Release Date: October 12, 2004



Western Australia Needle Marks And "Hair Twists"

A friend of mine does have visitor experiences and has a rather
interesting side effect when it happens. I have pictures of a
tiny knot of hair which appears on his left temple after an
experience. Is this a well known phenomenon??

Additional Information:

Hi Brian

My friend is a private person and would like to remain
anonymous.

The occurrence happens on average once every 10 days. What he
does understand is that the position of the occurrence and the
nature of the experience leads him to think that the objective
is input and output of information, visuals and focus of
attention and control. Having numerous conversations with my
friend and his large number of diverse experiences leads me to
think (not believe) his stories are genuine.

He has been to doctors and psychiatrists about his experiences
including MRI and TLE tests, brain function tests all are
normal. I believe the hair twists are of an unknown origin. I
definitely don't think he can do them himself because the hair
is so intertwined and in a tiny ball. My friend thinks that
visitors may be doing this and has related stories of a needle
poked into his head by the beings mostly on the left side. He
has shown me many such "hair twists" and he always cuts them off

I have asked him permission to report this occurrence and he
agreed, and I will ask him if he wants to elaborate himself but
he is weary to do so.

Attached are some more macro shots I took yesterday (same one).

Thanks.

I would like to thank the person for the report and photos. Also
for granting me permission to post.

--------------------------

Over New Brancepeth, Durham, England Morphing Object

Date: 1997
Time: Approx 11:00 p.m.

Number of witnesses: 2
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Varying

Full Description of event/sighting: It started out as a big
star, it did not move in any direction for the 15 minutes I
observed it but it changed in appearance several times before
fading away. First it looked like a big star surrounded by
millions of normal stars and a few thin whisps of cloud. It grew
and I thought it was a meteor coming straight towards me. I
panicked at first but when it reached the size of a golf ball
held at arms length away from my eyes it stopped growing, a
black spot appeared in the middle and grew until a ring of light
was left. This morphed into three separate lights in a
triangular formation. They then morphed back together in a shape
which I can only best describe as a mushroom. Then it faded
away. It lasted 15 minutes approx was witnessed also by my
girlfriend at the time, it did not move - it just came towards
us, I guess maybe 1 to 2 miles away in the sky but plainly
visible, put on this peculiar display and then faded away where
it had came from.! Supernova? No - UAP (Unidentified Aerial
Phenomenon).

Thank you to the witness for the report.

--------------------

Versailles, Kentucky Strange Twinkling Star Like Object

Date: Ongoing in September, 2004
Time: Evening
Dear Sir,

My wife and I noticed a strange twinkling star like object in
the sky starting around early September this year. We watched it
over a period of about 3 hours and it did not move in a
progression with the other stars. It maintained it's same
position in the sky as we used markers for where we were
standing and the tree line on the street to see if it had moved.
It is very bright ( at least -1 magnitude). It has a very rapid
twinkling. We got out the 10x50 binoculars and observed it over
the next few nights. Always in the same area. After observations
of about 2 weeks it seemed to slowly retrograde across the sky.

That is when we were assured that it wasn't a star at all. We
set up our cheap telescope ( cheap optics) but couldn't bring
out very much detail about the object. It has a blue and yellow
coloring in the center. Not mixed together but independently
swirling around. On the outside edge of the object bright green
almost like sparklers spinning around the outer edge of it at
around a 2 hz rate. When I saw the picture of the Amarillo TX
light picture; my wife and I agreed that it is close to what we
see. For over one week there seemed to be a grid of at least 5
equidistant from each other. These objects were compared through
optics against known stars as a way to check for any atmospheric
aberrations. or the optics themselves. A sixth one was found to
be a star. Only one is still visible. But has moved to a
different position.

Has anyone been able to id what these lights are?

Thank you to the witness for the report.

--------------------------

Coquitlam, B.C. Rectangular Shaped Cloud

Date: September 25, 2004
Time: Approximately 8:40 a.m.

On September 25/04, while driving in a westerly direction on
United Way in Coquitlam at approximately 8:40 a.m. I was looking
at the clouds and a rectangular shaped cloud caught my eye as it
was different from all of the others. When I looked at it, it
moved as quickly as a plane into a nearby cloud which was about
8 lengths away. The other clouds did not move like the
rectangular cloud, the others were slowly floating. The
rectangular cloud definitely was not a plane.

Has anyone else witnessed a rectangular fast moving cloud?

Thank you to the witness for the report.

--------------------------

Along the New York State Thruway

Date: October 6, 2004
Time: 1:30 p.m.

Number of witnesses: 1 to my knowledge
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Thin, I could not tell if it was a rectangle,
circle, etc...
Full Description of event/sighting: I was driving southbound on
I-87 of the NYS Thruway between the Catskill and Saugerties
exits when approaching a straight stretch of the road I noticed
what appeared to be three birds (hawks) flying about 100 feet
above an area of trees to the left of the highway. About a half
mile away I noticed one of the "birds" was interacting in an odd
way. The "bird" made a quick upward motion then descended. It
continued this pattern about three more times in between the
birds (I'm sure they were birds). Something interesting, when it
peaked before descending, it gave off a bright shine, similar to
tin foil under a bright light. Within 1/8th of a mile of the
activity the bird or object made a swift and quick descend into
the trees and that was the last I saw of it.

The rises and descends were all at a 90 degree angle. I have
never seen a bird perform moves like this, especially ones the
size of a hawk.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

--------------------------

Mile 98 on the Alaska Highway out of Fort St. John, British Columbia

Date: October 6th, 2004
Time: 8:00 p.m. PST

Reporting sighting October 6th, 2004 at 8:00 pm Pacific Standard
Time.

Sighting was about l4 Kilometers east of Mile 98 on the Alaska
Highway out of Fort St. John, British Columbia

My son (name removed) has a farm in a secluded area, with no
electricity (has generator for electricity which was not running
at the time) The interior of the house was lit by propane lights
and there were no outside lights on. My son (name removed) was
sitting out on the deck petting his dog on a clear night. The
stars were visible. He looked down to open a chocolate bar
wrapper when the light hitting his glasses made him look up. He
yelled Dad; Dad get out here now there is something in the sky.
I bolted out the door which probably took me 5 seconds and it
was no longer visible. He pointed up in the sky and he said Dad
right up there where those stars are there was a big light
shining down on me pulsating with different colors and it was up
really high and it took off across the sky and disappeared. As
he was explaining this to me all of the sudden as we were
looking up a light the size of a pin head appeared and grew and
pulsated to a very large size. This all happened in a few
seconds. As the other members bolted out the door it disappeared
and took off across the sky. This was l00 times faster than any
satellite moving across the sky. The rest of the household saw a
moving object leaving the area.

I am 66 years old and in all my years of looking in the skies I
have never seen anything like this.

Thank you to the witness for this report.

HBCC UFO Research Note: I will be calling the witnesses to see
what else there may be to the sighting. It is an interesting one
for sure.

----------------------

Phoenix, Arizona Weird White Object

Date: October 10, 2004
Time: 11;44 a.m.

I taped something that I have seen before posted on your site. I
think it was taped in MN. as well. This object took on the shape
of a (W) or (M). It was breezy but the object was not going with
the wind. The object was pretty high and I was happy I even
spotted it. It was over 10K ft. in my estimation and heading due
North. Winds were West at 5-15 mph. I taped it for a few minutes
until it disappeared behind the house. The other objects that I
saw posted on your website had a lot of color, this was white.
Any ideas as to what this may look like to you?

Thank you to the gentleman for all of the clips and report.

Video clip and pictures are =A92004RichG.

Video clip Phoenix, Arizona Weird White Object 5.96 mbs

To view clip:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D1941

-----------------------------------

Phoenix, Arizona Barbell UFO - October 2004

Date: October 10, 2004
Time: 11:31 a.m.

Hi Brian,

Hope all is well,

Jeff Willes here at www.ufosoverphoenix.com. Today I videotaped
the Barbell UFO at about 11:45. It was partly cloudy and about
78 This time it was next to the moon, It was moving vary slow.

I taped it for about 30 min. at one point I taped it in neg art
mode on the cam. And as you see it is vary weird. It moved to
the east a little before it was gone. I will be sending the clip
of it, and a clip of it in neg mode, both shot on about 50x.
This will be the 4th time I have taped this craft in just 3
months. I will be putting up some stills of this thing on my web
site as well.

Talk soon. Jeff.

Thank you to the gentleman for all of the clips and report.

Video clips and pictures are =A9Rob Kritkausky. <p>Please visit
online Rob Kritkausky's website: http://www.worldblend.net

Video clip #1 Phoenix, Arizona Barbell UFO - October 2004 4.92 mbs
Video clip #2 Phoenix, Arizona Barbell UFO - October 2004 4.92 mbs

View clips and pictures:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D1945

------------------------

Wardsville, Ontario White/Orange Hovering Light

Date: October 11, 2004
Time: 9:00 p.m.

White/orange hovering light, approx:: 3000 ft in the air. It was
motionless for about 5-10 min. in the east. At 50 degrees
horizon. Its glow de-creased, it began to move about 100
mph...and flew over my house..It was silent...2 white wing
lights and a red nose light in the form of a triangle
silhouette....Wardsville..Ont. 9:00 p.m..Oct.11 2004

I sent along a picture. last night..take care

Thank you to the witness for the report.

----------------------

Books

UFO Defense Tactics: Weather Shield to Chemtrails - By:
Johnstone, A. K

Dr. Johnstone's book was selected by The Anomalous Book List, as
one of the ten best UFO books of 2002.

Description: The existence of UFOs is a phenomenon that
intrigues and captivates, yet it generates more skepticism than
acceptance. Witnesses of unconventional craft are often
disbelieved and even ridiculed. Belief in the existence of UFOs
is obviously not yet mainstream, but that may one day change.
Over the past few decades, reports of UFO sightings have
dramatically increased in North America. Further, these
sightings have been observed to be more blatant and even
menacing. Some reports even imply that these craft are
monitoring our planet.

Interestingly, many of these sightings have taken place over
military bases. In UFO Weather Shield, A.K. Johnstone, PhD.,
explores the details of numerous sightings from a scientific
viewpoint, including descriptions of craft, luminous sheaths and
fireballs. So what, if anything, is the United States government
doing about it? Johnstone suggests that military and government
agencies have the ability to manipulate weather
electromagnetically and with chemtrails to deter unconventional
craft. This hypothesis also explains erratic changes in the
weather in the last few years. Is the government creating a
weather shield to deter UFOs from entering the earth=92s
atmosphere? Take a look at the evidence.

To purchase the book, please visit:
http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D19
34

Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO Research Home - Phone 250 845 2189
email: hbccufo.nul Website: http://www.hbccufo.com
Redirect: http://www.canadianufo.com HBCC UFO RESEARCH
Newsletter At:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HBCC_UFO_Newsletter/








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   Oct > Oct 13

                Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor?

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 20:46:37 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 08:33:29 -0400
Subject: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor?


Source: The Charleston Gazette - North Carlina

http://wvgazette.com/section/News/Today/2004101137

10-12-04


Author follows the trail of the Braxton County Monster

By Rusty Marks
Staff writer

Frank Feschino Jr. didn't plan on becoming a UFO researcher when
he first heard about the Braxton County Monster.

"I'm not a writer, I'm an artist," the 45-year-old author said
in a telephone interview from his home in Daytona Beach, Fla.

"I didn't start out with the intention of writing a book."

But the book, "The Braxton County Monster: The Cover-Up of the
Flatwoods Monster Revealed," has just been published by Quarrier
Press in Charleston. Feschino will talk about the book and his
work trying to uncover the mystery of the famed monster at 4
p.m. Sunday at the Charleston Civic Center as part of the West
Virginia Book Festival. The festival runs from 9 a.m. to 6 p.m.
Saturday and noon to 6 p.m. Sunday, and all events are free.

The "monster" he writes about was first seen on a Flatwoods
hillside on Sept. 12, 1952, by Kathleen May and a group of local
boys who went up the hill to investigate the crash of a
fireball. According to May and other witnesses, the group came
upon a 12-foot metallic creature perched under a tree. The
creature spewed oil on May's clothing, and the being emitted a
noxious mist that made those who came in contact with it sick.

Within hours, a local newspaper reporter broke the story of the
strange event, the National Guard was called in, and Flatwoods
was suddenly the UFO capital of the world.

Feschino first heard about the Flatwoods Monster while visiting
Braxton County relatives in 1990. Intrigued by the story, he
began asking local people what they remembered about the
monster. Initially viewed with suspicion, he was eventually able
to piece together what happened in Flatwoods on that night.

He quickly discovered how badly the story had been distorted in
the press over the past 40 years. "I don't think there are two
stories about the Flatwoods Monster that are the same," he said.

Feschino interviewed Kathleen May and her son, Fred, original
witnesses to the strange sighting. He also won the confidence of
a former National Guard colonel who was called in to keep order
after the sighting, and the newspaper reporter who broke the
original story.

But that was just the beginning. Feschino tapped into the
records of Project Blue Book, an Air Force project that
attempted to explain UFO sightings in the 1950s and '60s. He
found an entire roll of microfilm dedicated solely to the events
of Sept. 12-13, 1952.

"A lot of the old documents were faded," he recalled. "I had to
figure out with a magnifying glass what they said. Then I had to
put it all together.

"To put this story together was like a big, gigantic puzzle."

Feschino discovered that UFOs were spotted all over the eastern
United States on the night the Flatwoods Monster was seen,
including sightings in Washington, D.C.; Virginia; Maryland and
Tennessee. Government officials explained the hundreds of
individual sightings as a single meteor, but Feschino didn't
believe that a single meteor could be seen in so many different
places, at different times, and going in different directions.
He smelled a government cover-up.

Feschino believes the events that led to the crash of the
Braxton County Monster began several hours earlier, over the
ocean. "Every story has a beginning, a middle, and an end," he
said. "Flatwoods was the end of the story."

Feschino argues the Braxton County Monster was in fact the
occupant of a damaged UFO that crashed after a dogfight over the
Atlantic Ocean.

A few weeks before the Sept. 12 UFO sightings, in July,
researchers say UFOs were spotted over Washington, D.C. UFO
researchers say they have records that the military scrambled
jets to intercept the objects, which were violating United
States airspace.

Feschino thinks something similar happened on the night of Sept.
12. UFOs were spotted over the ocean, he says, and fighters were
sent to intercept them, resulting in massive aerial battles.

Several fighter planes were destroyed in the fights, but some
UFOs were hit as well, Feschino asserts. One of them crash-
landed in Flatwoods, and the UFOs seen later on Sept. 12 and the
next night were attempts to rescue the downed craft.

Feschino was able to re-create a possible scenario for the night
of Sept. 12 by carefully plotting each and every UFO sighting
reported that night, then tracing them all backwards. He
compared the sightings with official explanations of the events,
and says he talked to military sources who were familiar with
the incident. "I had to read between the lines of the government
cover-up," he said.

That the government would try to hush up the possible existence
of aliens and the loss of dozens of U.S. warplanes is not
surprising to Feschino. At the time, the United States was
locked in the Cold War, and more UFOs were seen in 1952 than any
other year.

"The country was panicking," he said. "People were starting to
realize the Russians were capable of flying over the country and
dropping atomic bombs. Then, all of a sudden, there are UFO
sightings over the Capitol."

Feschino's book will be released to stores on Saturday. It will
be available locally at Taylor Books in Charleston and B. Dalton
at the Town Center mall. The book may also be ordered by calling
Quarrier Press at 342-1848.

To contact staff writer Rusty Marks, use e-mail or call 348-1215.








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Oct > Oct 13

                      Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 07:43:23 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 09:20:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Lehmberg


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 12:48:32 EDT
>Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile?

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 15:31:59 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile?

>>>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>>Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:55:04 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>>>>Subject: Are UFOs Hostile?

><snip>

>>>>4) Discharging radiation at humans.

>>Our government has exposed service men, civilians, and islanders
>>to horrible radiation, and this was not considered hostile...
>>quite the contrary. Perhaps aliens think it is an acceptable
>>practice based on observation. Or more likely, it is
>>anunintentional thing... people in the wrong place at the wr ong
>>time. UFOs certainly don't irradiate huge crowds or cities at a
>>time.

><snip>

>Normally I agree with many of your keen observations but here I
>must respectfully and totally disagree. Without going into all
>your responses basically the upshot is that you have set things
>up so that the aliens cannot possibly demonstrate hostility
>except possibly by killing "huge crowds." That just isn't
>reasonable. By that reasoning only Osama bin Laden has
>demonstrated "hostility" because he killed 3,000 on 9-11, and
>other terrorists with smaller body counts haven't displayed
>"hostility." You are "blaming the victim" in making excuses for
>the aliens.

>James has articulated a good list of hostility signs and
>indicators and I just don't buy your alien-apologist responses.
>They have no business messing with our business. I think if you
>really dug down and studied the hostility incidents such as say
>Ft. Itaipu, Brazil, Nov. 4, 1957, you would find basically
>military attack, which is a classic sign of hostility. Assuming
>of course these incidents are true and factual, just taking them
>at face value indicates hostility.


Thoughts provoked by the thread.....

I think one of the factors I find most exciting about a
conjectured ET hypothesis is that they would be a group standing
outside and un-beholden to the predatory and authoritarian,
elected and non-elected Human "leadership cabal" we already
_know_ is there. Aliens are the ultimate sedition, Dolan points
out.

Additionally, it would seem that these ETs are documented as
more likely to approach humanity on an individual basis, and
would seem to eschew formal contact with agency, institution, or
government. Perhaps these aliens might hold a cultural
leadership style with so many flaws, ruptures, inconsistencies,
injustices, infidelities, duplicities, and atrocities as our own
as non-representative of a nature of individual humanity they
may have been watching for thousands, if not millions of years.

Perhaps this slower individual approach would more calmly (in
the aggregate) and more acceptably 'internalize' a disclosure
event pursuant to preferable 'change-over' outcomes, where as a
no-notice 'external' (and inaccurately spun) disclosure would
provide for the most strife and turmoil. We've weathered these
sea changes before; we'd do it again.

Lastly - thank your diety of choice for 'progressiveness' or
there'd be more rat-tails in out hotdogs, we'd still be
providing the sons of the Manor Lord with more of our daughters
for sport sex, and more abused children would be sweating 14
hour work days... Oh, and we wouldn't even be having this
conversation.

alienview.nul -:=A6:-
www.AlienView.net







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Oct > Oct 13

             Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor? -

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:10:40 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 10:58:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor? -


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 20:46:37 EDT
>Subject: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor?

>Source: The Charleston Gazette - North Carlina

>http://wvgazette.com/section/News/Today/2004101137

>10-12-04

>Author follows the trail of the Braxton County Monster

>By Rusty Marks
>Staff writer

>Frank Feschino Jr. didn't plan on becoming a UFO researcher when
>he first heard about the Braxton County Monster.

>"I'm not a writer, I'm an artist," the 45-year-old author said
>in a telephone interview from his home in Daytona Beach, Fla.

>"I didn't start out with the intention of writing a book."

>But the book, "The Braxton County Monster: The Cover-Up of the
>Flatwoods Monster Revealed," has just been published by Quarrier
>Press in Charleston. Feschino will talk about the book and his
>work trying to uncover the mystery of the famed monster at 4
>p.m. Sunday at the Charleston Civic Center as part of the West
>Virginia Book Festival. The festival runs from 9 a.m. to 6 p.m.
>Saturday and noon to 6 p.m. Sunday, and all events are free.

<snip>

>But that was just the beginning. Feschino tapped into the
>records of Project Blue Book, an Air Force project that
>attempted to explain UFO sightings in the 1950s and '60s. He
>found an entire roll of microfilm dedicated solely to the events
>of Sept. 12-13, 1952.

Oh? And what roll number is that?

<snip>

>Feschino thinks something similar happened on the night of Sept.
>12. UFOs were spotted over the ocean, he says, and fighters were
>sent to intercept them, resulting in massive aerial battles.

Just what Ufoology needs, more dramatic, totally imaginative
science fiction. Where is the evidence of these `massive aerial
battles'?

>Several fighter planes were destroyed in the fights, but some
>UFOs were hit as well, Feschino asserts. One of them crash-
>landed in Flatwoods, and the UFOs seen later on Sept. 12 and the
>next night were attempts to rescue the downed craft.

Where are the reports of UFOs?

<snip>

>Feschino's book will be released to stores on Saturday. It will
>be available locally at Taylor Books in Charleston and B. Dalton
>at the Town Center mall. The book may also be ordered by calling
>Quarrier Press at 342-1848.

>To contact staff writer Rusty Marks, use e-mail or call 348-1215.

One-sentence book review: Utter paranoid nonsense.

 - Dick







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   Oct > Oct 13

                        Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Smith

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 10:57:49 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 16:39:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Smith


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 10:31:34 -0500
>Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile?

>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 09:11:14 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>>Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile?


>Greg restates a point I make in another post. Humans are much
>more hostile on a daily basis than UFOs or their occupants.

Obviously, at least by our definition and knowledge. However,
there are many missing persons in the world and we cannot guess
if they are abducted and used for some heinous purposes by UFOs
or just prosaicly missing. Because we do not know something
horrible is going on, does not make it better than what we
humans are doing. Humans activites are blasted on the news every
day. This is mainly because there are so many humans and human
behavior is inside the paradigm which allows broadcast. Henious
events that may be attributable to UFOs and aliens may not get
into the media (next on FrontLine... UFOs kidnap people... I
doubt it would happen).

>Keep this in mind as well... since we do not know with certainty
>that UFOs are extra-terrestrial in origin, it is quite possible
>that the hostile actions you note were and are perpetrated by
>our own military. History would suggest that this is neither a
>novel concept, nor one our military would inherently avoid.

I agree that we don't know what UFOs are right now. The whole
reason I brought it up was regarding disclosure. If we can show
by the large number of cases out there that UFOs are hostile and
we assume they are alien and cannot be controlled, regulated or
defended against, then that is the ultimate reason for
nondisclosure. Filling the public's minds with the official idea
that there are such beings out there would necessarily create a
response (in some) of hopelessness, suicide, panic and general
lawlessness. Also, a general economic slump/collapse. I do not
think disclosure is worth the price in human life. But you see,
a long as this ONE possibility exists, then the government
should have an out, at least by us. They already know the truth,
but we don't. But if we press them and get this ONE disasterous
answer, then society is screwed.

>In fact, many people take false comfort in believing that UFOs
>are military craft of American origin. If their belief is
>accurate, what do you make of your list of hostilities, and of
>them, which would seem more likely to be human behavior, based
>on observation of human history. I submit that the American
>government have perpetrated each of the hostile acts you list,
>and many on our own people.

Their belief is good in that it favors societal stability and
adherence to the accepted paradigm. Now there are arguments that
sometimes it is very good for a society to break the paradigms.
Unfortunately this usually requires mass deaths (US broke
Japan's paradigm by nuclear bombing , the Allies broke Germany's
by carpet bombing Dresden, China broke paradigms in their
Progroms-Great Leap Forward, etc). Advanced US military vehicles
fit nicely and even give society pride and awe. If the UFOs are
truly military (only) and the perps of the heinous acts I list
truly the governments responsiblity, then I think they
constitute an act of War against the people and it would be high
time to do what Jefferson proposes regarding cleansing
revolutions. However, unless we can get independent confirmation
using device like Davenport's project and others that could be
built with enough money from UFO sugardaddies (do such exist),
then we can only look at the caseload and see that hostile acts
are taking place.

>Another view is that some UFOs are alien, and some are military.
>If this is so, there is much evidence to suggest that the
>hostile events are military and the non-hostile ones are real.

I do not think I have seen this evidence. Little hairy glowing
eyed floating dwarves that harass farmhouses and resist shotgun
blasts do not sound like military operations. If they did this
to any of the many enemies of the US then, it might be US
military issue dwarves. To use our advanced military tech to
abduct non-enemy US humans and do little experiments on them and
place implants seems unlikely. If they were doing it to
Islamofascists or North Korean leaders then I might think it
more likely our military.

>If aliens have hostile intent and have the superior technology
>to back it up, and are visiting Earth, why the need for secrecy?
>Why no... Shock and Awe? If they have hostile intent, why would
>some encounters indicate otherwise? Do they have bad moods?

Secrecy, as I said, I suspect is due to their needs for some
reasource which I am afraid is either biological (inside
_humans_, genes, viruses, some ever changing mutating part of
our biology) or cultural (to stimulate their world). Hostility
does not require them to kill us all. If they need _humans_,
then they would not want to spook the herd. If they don't need
us then you are right, they can kill us all long ago.

>At any rate, my fear of walking down certain notable streets
>here in Houston is more deeply based on possible hostility from
>humans, rather than from an alien.

Only because you know this danger due to excellent media and
cultural coverage.

>Betty Cash, a woman injured and perhaps eventually killed by
>injuries she sustained during a UFO encounter, made no judgment
>as to the motives of the UFO or its occupants. She certainly did
>not ascribe hostile intent. She believed she was just in the
>wrong place at the wrong time. She did however, find hostility
>in the reaction to her claim that the UFO she saw was *chased"
>by a bunch of military helicopters. She was called a liar by the
>military, and was left unable to confirm her story by those she
>felt certain would be able to explain.

I feel sorry for Ms. Cash. But she should really have blamed the
UFOs. They purposely landed in a HUMAN road and blasted
radiation at the car and occupants, with the full knowledge of
cancer casuing nature of this. Any court of law would find this
death ruled as murder. We do not know the intent, but at least
it is willful neglect. In fact, given the higher standard we
SHOULD hold aliens (given their "advanced" nature), it should be
considered hostile. Yes, blame the military who were likely
trying to pursue the alien craft. And when they can't back her
up without creating a world wide panic in asserting alien craft
are blasting radiation at people and we can't stop them, she
gets angry. Yes, it is enough to make you angry, but this is
another the good of the many outweigh the good of the few or the
one.

>If you walk into a bank, and the guard pulls his revolver and
>points it in your direction, you might find this a hostile act.
>Only when he fires, and the bank robber whom you did not see
>falls harmlessly to the floor behind you, do you realize that
>the hostile intent was for your benefit. Perhaps we're just not
>seeing the bank robber. You feel protected while the robber
>feels the hostility. A matter of perception.

Yes, well it seems that you should put your family first in line
to the benovelent aliens to be abducted. Do you want your
parents or children to have alien implants with all their
reported side-effects or alien abduction experiences with all
their heinous repressed memories. I hope you don't volunteer
just because you think the aliens are really doing us a favor!
They are only here to help us!

I can't believe it, you must be kidding right? Sure you can have
your opinion, but it is really unnerving me!






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                        Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Smith

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 11:24:28 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 07:49:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Smith


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 11:21:17 -0500
>Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile?

>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 07:28:25 -0700 (PDT)
>>Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile?

[From bottom]
>It is at this point in the discussion where I make my adieus.
>Once the labelling begins, the discussion is over.

You labelled me a nihilist. If that is not a provocative label
then I don't know what is. But I do not hold it against you, I
try to clarify my position.

>If aliens can read our minds, divine our laws, stop our weather,
>rape us at will, shower us with radiation on a whim, kill our
>nukes, how is it that our species has survived so long? What
>have we done right to earn continued existence?

As I have said in some more recent emails but you likely haven't
seen them yet, humans have something they want and they want to
continue collecting it. But they don't want to ask permission,
likely because they know we would refuse.

>You argue on one hand that aliens don't care, and that this lack
>of caring constitutes hostility. Then you argue that they should
>know all our laws, respect our borders, and obey our moral
>imperatives. If the aliens don't care, why would they waste the
>time to learn about our laws or morals?

They don't care. They should care if they were good aliens. But
since they seems to have ignored our laws and opinions, then we
must assume they are BAD aliens.

>If they are as omnipotent as you ascribe, I think they'll have
>much more of a problem with people of your ilk than mine.

Sounds kind of insulting but I will let it pass. If they are
GOOD aliens, they will accept all people and hope to improve
those that have wrong ideas using various benign persuasive
techniques (not mind control). If they are bad aliens, they
don't care about my or your ideas or opinions, they will do with
you as they will. I think this is the same for how
Islamofascists would treat Progressives/Liberals and
Conservatives, only I think the Islamofascists would simply kill
both with swords.

>I'm not sure what your phrase *Progressives...should have known*
>is supposed to imply. Do you think that using the word
>progressive implies membership in some kind of group, or do you
>just like to label things with which you don't agree? The former
>reveals an ignorance of language, while the latter reveals a
>common refuge from intellectual discourse. I am at a loss to
>discern which is the case.

Progressives/Liberals in the past have strived to better society
and help the poor, oppressed and downtrodden in ways some
Conservatives might not have. It is open to debate on the
effectiveness of their policies, but their impetus have pushed
for action when none might have occurred. However, recently, it
has become clear that these Progressives/Liberals have selected
new kinds of groups to support (in addition to the old groups).
These groups include terrorists, murderers, rapists, hard
criminals and drug dealers. Under the concept that "its not
their fault, but it is Society's" and that they must be given
leniency, hard cirminals are walking the streets, terrorists are
being defended/apologized for and legalization of crimes is
being advocated. You don't find many Conservatives supporting
this kind of policy, yet it is easy for Progressives because of
their Moral neutral stance and desire to help misunderstood
people.

Now you can see that when you stated your "Progressive" stance,
I found myself more able to understand your worldview and
perspective. You think aliens are simply misunderstood and we
should not judge them (moral neutrality) and they are probably
right anyway so we should support them. But of course the other
aspect which is part of the Progressive/Liberal perspective is
that it is the GOVERNMENT's fault for peoples actions and not
the people (or aliens).

So I do not judge you. Many people are Progressives/Liberals.
Fine. It just doesn't seem to encourage our society's survival.

>If you posted your list of hostilities in order to generate
>discussion, which was its stated aim, is any argument which does
>not agree with yours invalid? Or were you simply baiting those
>with a contrary opinion into the trap of being labeled and
>dismissed?

No, you obviously can have any opinion. Hopefully, it will help
me flesh out my own ideas, since I really haven't given this ANY
thought before, but it seems pretty important now.

I am not labelling you. You said progressive and it rang a bell
and I then could see how it all fit together with your other
statements which seemed hard to understand. But it makes sense
for Progressives/Liberals to believe your viewpoint. I had not
thought there could even be such an idealogical difference based
on the weird topic, but amazingly so!








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                    Re: UFO Disclosure Scenarios - Smith

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 11:32:25 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 07:51:33 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Disclosure Scenarios - Smith


I have added one more outcome to the list (B-2, C-5)

----------------------------
OUTCOMES

A. No Effect on Society/Country

Scenario A-1:
UFOs are all prosaic phenomena, all data released by the
government prove this, any data that does not follow this
paradigm is discreditted. Result is UFOlogist mass outcry.
However, the majority of the public behave as usual with no
danger of paradigm failure.
[Comment: This is essentially the current state of affairs.]

B. Positive Effect on Society/Country

Scenario B-1:
UFOs are positive and benevolent alien craft. Trade relations
are announced as established. Possible Earth refuel/supply base.
Can boost economy/jobs.
[Comment: based on observed cases, this is scenario can be ruled
out]

Scenario B-2:
UFOs are military craft. All other reports are prosaic or
discredited. US public takes pride in advanced powers of
the US.


C. Negative Effect on Society/Country

Scenario C-1:
All UFOs (excluding prosaic ones) are secret US craft. They had
hoped to keep it secret to keep the technology from non-US
hands. Other UFO reports are prosaic or discreditted. Since the
enemy now knows what these craft are, they can send spies to
uncover the construction plans. Also, use of this vehicle to
conduct unauthorized survelliance of antiUS forces is now
restricted by treaties/World-wide outcry. This would not only
reduce national security and increase the chances of attacks on
the US.

Scenario C-2:
All UFOs are prosaic phenomena or staged or planted as part of a
psychological operations strategy. Purpose is to make anti-US
forces think US has secret weaponry and thus keep them in check.
Perhaps more indepth psy-op purpose, but I am not knowledgable
enough to speculate. However, public knowledge makes this method
ineffective and national security is damaged.

Scenario C-3:
Non-prosaic UFOs are really alien craft. We have no ability to
stop them. We don't even know what their intentions are, but
many hostile acts have occured. Many cases are presented, some
of which show clear hostility. Since there is no recourse, the
public would panic. Definite economic disaster and mass
riots/crime.

Scenario C-4:
Non-prosaic UFOs are time travelers/ghosts/angels
demons/hyperdimensional beings. We have no ability to stop them.
We don't know what their intentions are, but many hostile acts
have occured. Many cases are presented, some of which show clear
hostility. Since there is no recourse, the public would panic.
Definite economic disaster and mass riots/crime. Cultural shock
due to paradigm damage.

Scenario C-5:
UFOs are military craft from other countries (!). Other UFOs are
prosaic or discreditted. Working on response to counter them,
but only a medium probability of stopping them. Public panic
level seems to be medium although the economic market is
damaged.







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                  Re: 'UFO' Spotted Near Fort Wayne - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 10:53:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 07:52:44 -0400
Subject: Re: 'UFO' Spotted Near Fort Wayne - King


>From: Peter Davenport - National UFO Reporting Center <director.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 09:51:41 -0700
>Subject: Re: 'UFO' Spotted Near Fort Wayne

<snip>

>My vote is for a contrail.

Hi Peter,

Agreed. When I was waiting for a glimpse of Comet Hale-Bopp a
few years back, I saw just this kind of effect. A white *bar*
appeared in the western sky as the sun was just above the
horizon before dusk. At first, I thought this was the comet.
After about 2 minutes, I realized that it was a jet whose
contrail was made incredibly bright by the sun.

Funny I never thought it was a UFO... it appeared too, organic,
I suppose. Looked like a bright smoke trail or something. I
could never see the craft that made the contrail, but it
eventually faded. The comet made its appearance a while later,
but that spectacular display made me forget completely the
contrail until you mentioned it, and the conditions required. It
did look amazingly like the cited video.


Best Regards,

Kyle








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                        Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 11:40:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 07:54:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - King


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 12:48:32 EDT
>Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile?

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 15:31:59 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile?

<snip>

>>>>4) Discharging radiation at humans.

>>Our government has exposed service men, civilians, and islanders
>>to horrible radiation, and this was not considered hostile...
>>quite the contrary. Perhaps aliens think it is an acceptable
>>practice based on observation. Or more likely, it is
>>anunintentional thing... people in the wrong place at the wr ong
>>time. UFOs certainly don't irradiate huge crowds or cities at a
>>time.

><snip>

>Normally I agree with many of your keen observations but here I
>must respectfully and totally disagree. Without going into all
>your responses basically the upshot is that you have set things
>up so that the aliens cannot possibly demonstrate hostility
>except possibly by killing "huge crowds." That just isn't
>reasonable. By that reasoning only Osama bin Laden has
>demonstrated "hostility" because he killed 3,000 on 9-11, and
>other terrorists with smaller body counts haven't displayed
>"hostility." You are "blaming the victim" in making excuses for
>the aliens.

>James has articulated a good list of hostility signs and
>indicators and I just don't buy your alien-apologist responses.
>They have no business messing with our business. I think if you
>really dug down and studied the hostility incidents such as say
>Ft. Itaipu, Brazil, Nov. 4, 1957, you would find basically
>military attack, which is a classic sign of hostility. Assuming
>of course these incidents are true and factual, just taking them
>at face value indicates hostility.


Hi Brad,

I don't mind disagreement. Generally it's a good way to learn.
And if everyone agreed with me, I'd post elsewhere. :)

I believe this...

We are attempting to apply human motivations and ideologies to a
race which we don't even know exists, but which we assume has
incredibly different capabilities.

We can't mimic their technology, we don't know how they travel
or communicate but they must be driven by the same Cro Magnon
instincts with which we are endowed?

Simplistic, ethnocentric, and typically arrogant. Very human.
But safe. Until we attempt to express our outrage at their
hostility. Say we pluck one out of the sky for violating our
airspace...would they perceive us as protecting our
airspace...or just hostile? Would they *understand*, or send in
the fleet for a quick end of the world lightshow?

The human attitude you display practically ensures our
destruction if we act on it, and if your suppositions about
their capabilities are true.

Aliens may be many things, but they are inherently not human.
Why jump to the conclusion that they even know what land
ownership, or sovereign airspace, or radiation burns are? They
might not understand emotion at all. They may not understand our
language, or even have voices to utter an insult. They might not
even know what an insult is, or what violating a country's
airspace is. They may not understand politics, or Cold Wars.

I would suspect that they would find us tedious, dangerous to
ourselves, wasteful, curious little creatures. Too primitive to
be worth the time to try to communicate directly, but unable to
avoid the occasional contact in doing whatever they do here.

I could be wrong, but I don't think one can logically deduce
hostile intent based on the thousands of sightings to date, and
our present status as a non-destroyed civilization.

You can call indifference hostile, but I don't see it that way
at all.

I could be wrong.

I find it humorous that I could be called an apologist for
aliens, when we don't even know for sure that they exist. They
haven't demonstrated enough hostility for us to know for sure.
If they came all this way to kill us off or rape us one by one,
then as James says, we are doomed, and nothing we can do will
stop it. I find this conclusion nihilistic, and not based on the
reality with which we are faced.

Most engaging argument, until the labels come out. Apologist,
Progressive. Human labels for derided beliefs. I'm also a
pelicanist, and a liberal,
and a conservative, and a meat-eater.

Maybe I'm an alien. :)

Best Regards,

Kyle








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                     Re: UFO Disclosure Scenarios - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 11:51:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 07:55:45 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Disclosure Scenarios - King


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 12:56:17 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>Subject: Re: UFO Disclosure Scenarios

>Thinking about this, if even one negative effect can occur, this
>seems like justification enough to us all to not disclose this
>information.

>------------------
>I am going to do this backwards. Basically, I will first
>describe the outcome, then devise scenarios that fit the
>outcomes.

>---------------
>OUTCOMES

<snip>

Hi James,

You missed one...

Scenario NOW - Mexican officials reveal that they have
encountered a UFO and have no explanation. They do not announce
that there is a prosaic explanation. They release the available
data to the UFOlogy community to attempt to explain the data.
UFOlogists discuss, TV shows play the video for all viewers, no
panic ensues, no complete explanation is found to date, the best
theory found to date is untested, and paradigm continues
unfazed. Some think it is oil flares, and some think it is alien
craft. Each is satisfied with their conclusion.

The government revealed its lack of knowledge, yet no panic
occurred.


Best Regards,

Kyle







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                      Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Dickenson

From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 17:53:27 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 07:59:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Dickenson


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 13:25:40 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile?

>Law abiding humans don't steal other people's cattle, cut out
>rectums/eyes/tongue and then drop the cattle right back where
>it was taken. Oh yes, first they electrify them.

James, "law abiding humans" do all that and more - to fully
self-conscious beings right here on Earth, in the name of
authoritarian "science".

http://www.perceptions.couk.com/authority.txt

is a very mild example.

What does that say about relative "hostility" of ETs vs. humans?


Cheers

Ray D








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                India UFOs & The Coming Global Supersilliness

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:08:23 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 08:03:07 -0400
Subject: India UFOs & The Coming Global Supersilliness


Source: India Daily

http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/10-13h-04.asp

10-13-04

Sources in the Government and UFO researchers opine like
America, India is on the verge of gaining military and civilian
technologies from extraterrestrial visitors! Another major
superpower?

Sumit Chatterjee
Special Correspondent


According to some UFO researchers and think-tanks all over the
world, India's recent experiences with countless UFO near the
Himalayas are significant. India is one of the nations in the
world with largest number of technocrats and education is
regarded as one of the major pride in every Indian family.
According some inner circles in the Government and the defense
establishments, India is on the verge of gaining technologies
for civilian and military purposes from the extra-terrestrial
cultures. Some strongly feel India and America are the two
champions of free speech and democracy. And that is why they may
have chosen India to lead the world to the order of the
Universe. According to many the order of the Universe is to live
peacefully, share knowledge and be spiritually elevated. And
India is just ready to lead the world towards that. Which other
nation can gain futuristic technologies and not gobble up the
world?

India's Air Force, Navy and Army will gain immensely from these
technologies. The main theme of these technologies is anti-
gravity driven vehicles and spatial motion control in 3D. Some
say America thirty years back was offered vehicles and
spacecraft that ran based on anti-gravity. America's biggest
secret research is on that. The Stealth technology that makes a
flying vehicle invisible to radar or similar electronic eyes is
also from the extra-terrestrial know how, researchers say.

India may gain immensely from these technologies and become a
super power. Indian technocrats and dedicated military personnel
will be able to harness these technologies and bring peace to
the world. India is probably the only country that spiritually
inclined. That makes a big difference. Those who have a close
encounter with extra-terrestrial being say they are spiritually
elevated and the energy levels are very high from those beings.
It is also said that final frontier of science and technology
will come from integration of human spirituality and modern
science and technologies.

India is also learning about the order of Universe - the
common courtesy and the law of the Universe. Some say year 2012
is when they will land on earth. And for that matter India is
one of the chosen countries for pilot projects.







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                   Re: UFO Disclosure Scenarios - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 11:16:06 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 08:09:30 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Disclosure Scenarios - Gehrman


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 12:56:17 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>Subject: Re: UFO Disclosure Scenarios

>Thinking about this, if even one negative effect can occur, this
>seems like justification enough to us all to not disclose this
>information.

>------------------
>I am going to do this backwards. Basically, I will first
>describe the outcome, then devise scenarios that fit the
>outcomes.

>---------------

>OUTCOMES

<snip>

James, EBK, List,

Scenario C-5:
The creatures have lived on earth and evolved on earth and are
what Ivan Sanderson called "Invisible Residents" who probably
live under the sea:

"That they are for the most part over-civilized and quite mad
is, in my opinion an open ended question but quite probable.
 Perhaps we will never be able to cope with them until we, too,
all go quite mad, and it looks as of now as if we were doing our
level best to achieve this presumably enviable estate."

                    --Ivan Sanderson -Invisible Residents, 1970


---









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                    Re: Mitchell To Reveal New Evidence -

From: Adrian Carlyle-Gordge <carlyleg.nul>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 13:40:00 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 08:12:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Mitchell To Reveal New Evidence -


>From: Stephen MILES Lewis <elfis.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 17:37:19 -0000
>Subject: Edgar Mitchell To Reveal New Evidence Of UFOs & ETs?

>Astronaut Edgar Mitchell To Reveal New Evidence Of UFOS And ETs

>Edgar Mitchell, the sixth man to walk on the moon, is about to
>reveal all about his experiences of UFOs and ETs at the Living
>The Field Conference 2004 in London on 9th &10th October.

<snip>


Hello all,

Does anyone know if Edgar Mitchell ended up divulging any new
information?

Thanks for your time.

Adrian

Adrian Carlyle-Gordge
Network Support
Room 113, Robson Hall
Faculty of Law
University of Manitoba
(204) 474-6463







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                 Re: 'UFO' Spotted Near Fort Wayne - Yturria

From: Santiago Yturria <syturria.nul>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 15:30:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 08:20:45 -0400
Subject: Re: 'UFO' Spotted Near Fort Wayne - Yturria


>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 14:04:29 -0500
>Subject: Re: 'UFO' Spotted Near Fort Wayne

>I've contacted WANE-TV to see if they can put the UFO segment
>online at their website, for download as a streaming video. (I'm
>awaiting a call-back.)

>Meanwhile, I've uploaded the news segment, consisting of the
>video and interviews about it (around 3 minutes in length), to a
>website we have:

>http://www.wildesociety.org

>The download will take a very long time via broadband and
>especially for those with dial-up; the file is 89 megs in size,
>but it's the complete WANE news segment as aired.


Hello Rich,

Thank you for posting the link to the WANE TV UFO report. I just
see the report and find this kind of burning falling object very
familiar with other cases with the same characteristics and we
called them UFO meteors because of the shape. Many theories
about them and it seems they keep appearing.

Of all these cases documented on video the most spectacular one
in my opinion is the filmed by Helene Solberg in Asker, west of
Oslo Norway. This object is seen moving very low and slow but
more like flying than falling. Intriguing footage.

Here is the link to the video for all of you to see.

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article442072.ece


Santiago






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                          Filer's Files #43 - 2004

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 18:40:31 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 09:46:14 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #43 - 2004


Filer's Files #43 - 2004, Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern
Vice President of Skywatch International
October 13, 2004, Webmaster: Chuck Warren

Many Flying TrianglesThe purpose of these files is to report the
UFO eyewitness and photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily
basis around the world and in space as reported each week. Many
people claim it is impossible for aliens to visit Earth, I ask
you only keep an open mind and watch the evidence we accumulate
each week. These Files make the assumption that extraterrestrial
intelligent life exists and my hypothesis is that of the over
one hundred UFO reports each week many represent factual UFO
sightings in our skies. UFOs were seen over New York, New Jersey
Pennsylvania, North Carolina, South Carolina, Ohio, Tennessee,
Illinois, Texas, Colorado, AArizona, California, Washington,
Canada, Argentina, India, and Australia. Astronaut Gordon Cooper
and Dr. John Mack. MD.

In the last couple weeks Ufology has lost two courageous men who
were willing to speak out about the UFO phenomenon; Astronaut
Gordon Cooper and Dr. John Mack. MD. It is often difficult for
men with successful careers to stand up to ridicule and put
their reputations up to the glare of publicity in a
controversial subject. They were brave great men and will be
sorely missed. We send our condolences to their families and
friends.

We all have only a relatively small time on Earth. I encourage
you to take some time to smell the flowers, watch the gorgeous
sky, and spend time with your loved ones.


Mars - European Space Agency Lakes

Norman Bryden writes, Here is another image from the European
Space Agency what clearly looks like liquid bodies of water on
the surface in and around this crater on Mars.

This color image from the ESA is of the Beagle 2 landing site. After
seeing what clearly looks like deep blue liquid water on Mars near the
Beagle 2 landing site and knowing NASA ignores this strong evidence, one
can't help but wonder if the loss of the Beagle 2 was intentional. NASA
was responsible for the communications to the Beagle 2. This deep blue is
not like the light colored blue spherical formations recently seen in the
Mars Rover images. This is a very dark blue, like water, that swirls in
and arAound the crater where one would expect to see the collection of
water. There are many images of what looks like large bodies of water, both
standing and running in rivers and streams on Mars. There are also many
images of other indications of life including vegetation and even higher
forms of life. NASA has been in denial of extraterrestrial evidence for
many years and is doing science a great disservice by way of this denial.
Their actions actually prevent the advancement of science and exploration.
Our planet could grow and become the space age civilization it was meant
to Abe if we could divert the resources used for destruction of our world
to the advancement of knowledge and science, and benefit us all if only
NASA and our leadership had a vision of progress rather than a vision of
war that resides today in the echelon of government. We must get past the
injustice done to humanity and evolve to meet the universe with open eyes.
The accumulation of evidence explicitly indicates Mars currently has life.
Thanks to Norman Bryden.

http://www.esa.int/export/mex_mm/images/17_LAN_1.jpg

Thanks to the European Space Agency Mars satellite.

[Image]

New York - Trio of Lights

BUFFALO/WILLIAMSVILLE - At first sight, there were three cross
shaped lights hovering in the sky and shifting positions
slightly to the left and right on September 16, 2004, at 9:30
PM. After five minutes, two of them drifted below the tree line
about a mile away. The third one remained in sight. At this
point, a jet passed by my bedroom window on the opposite side,
and much closer than the lights making the usual noises
associated with a jet. A family member brought me a pair of
binoculars, but it became a more visible cross shape with no
definable object behind it. At this point, the light moved up
into the sky slightly, then to the right, then left, before
dropping straight down behind the same tree line the others had
gone behind. Also, after two of the lightsA disappeared, there
appeared to be another distant light behind and to the right of
the remaining light. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director,
http://www.ufocenter.com/

New Jersey - Flying Triangle

BRICK - The witness reports was traveling north on Old Hooper
Road on September 16, 2004, around 9:15 to 9:20 PM, and looked
to the west and saw what he thought was a tower. He kept
watching for a few miles and did notice movement but noticed
another car stop on the side of the road to look. He also found
a place to stop and watch. The craft started to move very
slowly, then started to speed up and fly toward the witness. He
states, "The craft flew overhead with a strange light pattern,
he had never seen before. I watch the skies at night, so I know
the aircraft that go to Newark, NYC or Philly airports. I looked
closely at the craft and it was clearly a black flying
trianglAe. I quickly turned off the car's engine and I could
hear a low hum, that was different from any other aircraft I
have heard in the past. I should have paid more attention to the
light pattern and copied it down. It is difficult to judge the
size and height. Normally, I can do this, however this thing was
difficult to judge. It is possibly from Mc Guire Air Force
base.Editor's Note: Mc Guire Air Force Base has started
receiving the new C-17 airlift aircraft that looks and sounds
different than the newly retired C-141. However, its four jet
engines are louder than a hum. Thanks to Peter Davenport
Director, http://www.ufocenter.com/


Pennsylvania - Cross

COATESVILLE -- The craft in the shape of a cross moved across
the sky in a flash at incredible speeds at 7 PM, on September
20, 2004. It was there, then suddenly it was gone. A few seconds
later it flew back, stopped for a few minutes. The witness
states, "I could see the lights as it spun, then it darted off
leaving a red trail behind it." Thanks to Peter Davenport
Director, http://www.ufocenter.com/

LEBANON  -  Jed sent the following email: "Living close to a
military training facility [the GAP] in Pennsylvania, for years,
I have observed many military flares that turn different colors
and drop downward turning other colors. On the night of
September 23, 2004, I saw something that wasn't a flare. I was
and driving home eastward from the vet after a dog emergency at
3:45 A.M. In the eastern sky between Orion's belt and Sirius I
saw an orange-yellow light much like a modern dusk to dawn
'sunlight' lamp. The road I was traveling was a basic back road
with many turns and twists so I know it wasn't a reflection. It
flew moved to the right then left [faster than anything I've
ever seen] then back to its original location, then repeated the
same movement back to its original location then dropped
downward at what looked like the same distance of the right to
left movements then stayed stationary. The size of the light was
larger than any planet or star, say 3 to 5 times greater than
the diameter of Sirius.

I continued to follow the object as it became difficult to keep
in sight upon entering the city. I found the fastest road back
to the east and re-sighted the light that was slowly heading to
the east-southeast. The light was now traveling at a fast steady
speed, which would be considered 'normal' to a jet plane at say
30,000 feet. Thanks to Jed


North Carolina - Gigantic Cigar

TRYON - The observer was in his upstairs apartment and saw a
bright light outside on September 20, 2004, at midnight. He
opened his door to get a better look and the light went out. He
realized there were three remaining lights. two were blinking
red lights at each end of a monstrous aircraft and there was
also a light that looked like it could have been a cockpit of
some sort because it gave off a light such as one that you would
see inside a house. This object was very close to the ground
about 150 yards and so huge that if it were an airplane it would
have made a very noticeable sound. The witness watched in
amazement as the object slowly moved across the sky at a very
low level in mountainous terrain, so it was way too low for a
blimp or anything like that to be flying there. Thanks to Peter
Davenport Director, http://www.ufocenter.com/


South Carolina - Lights Moving Closer

MYRTLE BEACH -- It was dark and cloudy on the beach on September
16, 2004, at 8:15 PM. All of a sudden I noticed three blinking
lights in the sky staying still, then all of a sudden they
started moving out to sea. One of the blinking lights moved over
to another then back to its original position. If you were to
draw straight lines to each they would have formed a right
triangle. After they were out of viewing distance, another
single blinking light came across the sky. Three times this UFO
let off a light that lasted about five seconds each time and it
was an orange, reddish glow that only shot upwards. That was it,
but I remember during all of this it was cloudy with no stars
visible. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director,
http://www.ufocenter.com/


Ohio - Cigar and Flying Triangles

CANTON -- It was Sunday, September 19, 2004, at 4:35 PM, it was
a clear day very sunny, beautiful day. I was walking from the
garage to the house and looked up and noticed a bright silver or
aluminum colored cigar or blimp shape object in about a 45
degree angle going really fast across the sky from the N.E. to
the S.W. for approximately 10 to15 seconds. The sun was really
shining on the object and that caught my eye. I was home by
myself, there was none of my neighbors outside at that time. It
was something I have never seen before. It was not a plane. It
went really fast, no trail, and made no sound. I as thinking
about this all day and hope someone else may have seen this
object, which would help you. Thanks to Peter Davenport
Director, http://www.ufocenter.com/


Columbus -- Glowing Disk UFO seen in Columbus on September
20,2004, at 7:30 PM, that began traveling backwards nearly
instantly. I cannot confirm exactly what it is that I saw. It
was flat however, with no limbs of any sort such as wings found
on an airplane. I could slightly tell the shape was reminiscent
of a disk or saucer. It began its journey in the near proximity
of the moon. As it neared larger cloud formations I could at
times see that it was going behind them. The only clouds present
in the sky weAre the high cirrus clouds, yet like I said
earlier, I could roughly discern a shape. As it came from behind
a cloud, it had lost its glow and then its shape was much more
clearly prominent. It was then a dull metallic hue. Moments
later it vanished from sight.

Its descent across 1/4 of the sky had taken no more than two
minutes. Keep in mind that this was not traveling away from me.
It kept its size and girth throughout and seemed to be traveling
in an arc or semicircle around my location. I frantically
searched the dusk sky for the object but I could no longer see
it. I was resigned to thinking I had hallucinated, I walked away
defeated all the while fighting the urge to run into a nearby
restaurant and shout, "Did you see the UFO?" A quick glance
caught me offA guard as I realized that the object was back in
the sky and glowing, but it was suddenly traveling in the
opposite direction. A plane cannot suddenly begin traveling the
exact opposite direction in mid flight? I really did see a UFO
tonight.

BROOKPARK -- Driving home from work on 480 West at approx. 11:45
PM, on September 22, 2004, I was talking on the phone and looked
up at a bright light that caught my attention. I was driving
west just passing Ridge Rd. and saw the triangle in a banking
maneuver. It was quite clearly back dropped against the sky, and
I saw the VERY bright lights at each point with a subdued
somewhat pulsating red light in the center. It was straight-
ahead and only a couple miles up. I was too fixated on the craft
to notice whether aAnybody else was also observing it. It banked
to the south and traveled at a relatively slow rate, while I was
able to keep watching it out the window.I could make out the
low, thin profile and the lighting beneath it. As I was still
viewing it, I passed a tree line at the same elevation obscuring
the view, and as I cleared the tree line, it was no longer
visible. I have seen the Triangle type before in the late 80s on
my way home to Connecticut, where it was amazingly low over the
highway traveling at an exceedingly slow speed. The entire
highway was apparently watching it as well, as we were creeping
along and there was no place to pull over for the people stopped
on the side of the highway. Last nights sighting wasn't quite as
dramatic, but having been in the Marine Corps, there was no
mistaking it for a conventional aircraft or other natural
phenomenon. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director, [
http://www.ufocenter.com/ ]http://www.ufocenter.com/

WOOSTER/MANSFIELD -- At 7:30 PM, on September 28, 2004, the
witness was driving due west toward Mansfield on US route 30,
the witness noticed an intense RED light ahead, at an altitude
of about 3000 feet. The light disappeared behind a cloud, and
never reappeared. A few seconds later, another intense RED light
appeared right behind the first one, and disappeared behind the
same cloud. A few seconds later, another intense light, but this
one farther north, and farther away, appeared for a few seconds,
and dAisappeared. A few seconds later, almost directly overhead,
another intense red light appeared, motionless, for a few
seconds, then disappeared. These lights continued to appear and
disappear for 3 to 5 minutes, randomly, all over the sky. The
witness reports, "I lost count of them after ten and they made
no noise, and only a couple of them appeared to move. There WAS
a jet airliner flying southwest in the vicinity, so I was able
to get some perspective of altitude, speed, and color. Thanks to
Peter Davenport Director, http://www.ufocenter.com/


FOSTORIA - George Ritter continues to take video of UFOs flying
over the farm next door. Pictures of these UFOs have been taken
by a several different types of cameras. I plan on visiting
George and attempting to film some UFOs myself next week.

[Image]

Tennessee - Giant Flying Triangle

MUFON's Kim Shaffer writes, On October 3rd, I received a report
from a man who related the following story. "He was driving home
from work on a rural road at 05:30 on Saturday, October 2, 2004,
when he saw what he thought was a fire in the distance. As he
drove he saw the "fire" several other times and when he arrived
at an intersection near his home, he stopped and exited his car
to see if he could determine what he was now also hearing. A
deep throbbing hum preceded the giant triangular object as it
rose from behind trees and moved toward the witness. He started
to run but realized there was nowhere to run. As he stood in the
road, a massive craft 300 feet long moved closer and he saw
three large domes filled with a turbulent reddish orange fiery
light.Each dome was larger than his car and he could have easily
thrown a stone and hit the craft. The witness also reported that
the craft was slightly reflective and metallic, also having rib-
like structures running the width of the craft, being most
defined along the center of the craft. This witness also
described the sound as passing throughout his body, seeming to
burn, tingle and give him a sensory overload. He was unable to
adequately describe the feelings. The hair on his head and arms
stood straight up. As the craft passed over him, it turned 90
degrees to the west, without banking, and moved quickly behind
trees and hills.

The witness awoke the next morning with a nosebleed and a
metallic taste in his mouth. He also had some abnormal hair
loss, felt sick and weak, had a skin irritation on his face and
back not unlike a sunburn. We have documented his physiological
condition, which has improved since last Saturday. After several
interviews, we have determined that this witness has a loss of
15 minutes on his watch that had not malfunctioned before the
sighting or since. He has agreed to follow-up consultations with
my ASD, Dr. Melvin Redfern DCH and myself so that we may help
him resolve issues of anxiety and find answers to the possible
missing time. It should also be noted that the sincerity of the
witness is without question. Further updates can be found as
they become available on the Tennessee MUFON web site at
http://www.mufontennessee.org/ Thanks to Kim Shaffer MUFON
Tennessee State Director (Eastern)

Illinois - What could it be?

CHICAGO - The witnesses arrived in the city on September 18,
2004, at 6:31 AM, just after daybreak and were standing in front
of our shop and noticed strange looking clouds. Both of us
stared at the same place in the sky for a minute and commenting
to each other it was a strange feeling about that one particular
spot that kept making us glance up to that point in the sky. I
joked that there was probably a UFO up there that we couldn't
see with our eyes, but could more or less sense. I got our
camera and snapped a couple of pictures of the cloud bank and
sure enough when I downloaded them to the computer something
showed up, There seemed to be a presence up there getting our
aAttention. The object was not visible to the naked eye, but
showed up on the image. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director,
http://www.ufocenter.com/v

Texas - Flying Triangle Hovers Over School

AUSTIN - Around September 18, 2004, for two nights, an amateur
astronomer noticed lights above his house that didn't belong
there . When he focused his binoculars on them, he estimated
their altitude at about 500' - 1000'. The object was not
obviously solid, and appeared nearly the same color as the sky.
As it flew overhead it had the shape of a "dim" triangle with a
light at each point and one light in the center. It was slightly
darker, but remained a close match to the sky color. The craft
hovered over BedichekA Middle School at William Cannon and South
1st for at least five minutes. Then, it accelerated to 500 mph
or faster and flew off without changing altitude. It was
observable for another 5 to 6 seconds, as it came directly over
my house towards the west. When it flew over there was
absolutely no sound, but strangely the air became thick and
humid, and there was a barely detectable "electrical" smell.
Thanks to Peter Davenport Director, http://www.ufocenter.com/
Colorado - Huge Disk

GRAND JUNCTION - The observer states, "I was hunting and just as
the sun was going down I looked at the horizon and noticed two
airliners' reflections from the setting sun on September 19,
2004, at 7:15 PM. Flying above the airliners was the reflection
a huge object. Looking through my binoculars it did not seem to
have a defined solid appearance, but was flat with a slight dome
shape to it. It was flying at about the same speed as the
airliners. It was much larger than the airliners. I was trying
to underAstand what I was seeing when three jet fighters banked
over Grand Junction but none were in any kind of formation one
of the fighters that banked over GJ got on a straight course
towards the huge object and hit his after burners flying west,
the other fighters did not follow. I watched this pursuit and
the huge object just faded out closer to Green River, Utah. I
kept watching the horizon after the huge object disappeared and
saw a much smaller object hovering in the same spot. I thought
this was a star buAt then another fighter flew over GJ heading
directly for this object and the object disappeared. All this
took place in 15 minutes. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director,
http://www.ufocenter.com/


ENGLEWOOD -- On September 26, 2004, at 6:15 PM, eyewitness Stace
reported, "I went outside in our suburb near Denver, to see if I
might catch a" glimpse of the sphere I've been seeing a lot of
recently. It was a very clear evening, with a few high clouds
drifting north when I noticed a bright stationary object about
30 degrees east of the zenith.

Through binoculars, it was a steady white sphere like a planet
shining in the blue sky. From my deck chair, using the overhead
wires as a guide, I confirmed that the object was absolutely
stationary, and remained so for 20 full minutes, not moving at
all.  At about 6:25 PM, my 16-year-old daughter came home, and I
called her out and she looked at the object through binoculars
and said it looked just like a white ball. Her 19-year-old
friend also saw it, just before it vanished at 6:35 p.m." Stace
estimated that the sphere's altitude was between 15,000 and
20,000 feet, Thanks to MUFON.

Arizona - Lights

Cave Creek --My wife and I observed from our balcony in Cave
Creek several stationary lights over southwest Phoenix last
night and were wondering if anyone else had reported the same
thing. They were appearing for about an hour after 9 PM, on
September 7, 2004, sometimes in horizontal clusters of 2 or 3,
and then would mysteriously fade out of site. There seemed to be
a pattern at some points where one would dissappear in one
location, while another would appear in another location. They
were completely stationary for the most part, however, a few
would move ever so slighty closer to the ground. We observed
through binoculars for quite awhile, but could not see any more
detail. The color of light from where we are appeared similar to
the orange glow of a street light, but through the binoculars
appeared to be oscilllating from green to red to blue - similiar
to the atmospheric effect one observes with stars. My wife had
suggested that perhaps they were hot air balloons, but in my
thinking the lights were aglow for too long a period. (E-mail
report)California - Images of UFOsMODESTO - R. David Anderson
writes, "I'm sending you some of the recent pictures which I
have shot at night." I have been getting more string of pearls
types of UFO pictures and other shapes. I have included some
"string of pearls" UFO pictures. When UFOs change shape as these
ones do, it gives you a different perspective on the dynamics of
these elusive objects. that the string of pearls UFO pictures
make for good contrast when they are featured side by side.
Thanks to R. David Anderson. please see http://www.ufobase.net/


Washington - Close-up Sighting of Black TriangleSEATTLE -- Gary
Val Tenuta writes, "In November 1993, on a Sunday night about
9:30 PM, I was driving next to the main Boeing Aircraft facility
northbound, and noticed three unblinking red lights low in the
sky. They were moving in unison, very slowly across my field of
vision from east to west. In all that time I'd seen plenty of
airplanes and helicopters flying low in this area. Then, only
about two blocks away from being directly under the flight path
of these lights, I still could not make out what they were
attached to. However, from their slow, steady movement, in
unison, I was pretty sure all three of them were attached to a
single object. They were about to enter the airspace above
Boeing Field to my immediate left. At this point I was convinced
it was a single, low-flying craft of some kind and I knew there
was something very odd here.

I pulled my car off to the side of the road and rolled down the
window to get a better look. But the craft was now directly
overhead so I had to get out of the car to see it. I opened the
car door and stepped out as the craft passed slowly and directly
over my head at an estimated altitude of less than 500 feet and
perhaps only 150 feet above me. I could see it was a gigantic
black triangle. It was just one big, three-sided, cookie-cutter-
straight-edged, black, geometric shape; a triangle with one
large, round unblinking red light at each of its three corners,
flat up against the underside of the craft. I could clearly see
a huge dense black silhouette against this gray cloud cover
ceiling.It flew past me and was now over Boeing field about
seventy-five to a hundred feet above one of the main Boeing
hangars flying at five miles per hour. It's heading west. It
appears to be about the size of a football field." The object
didn't make a sound! Not even a hum, a rumble" or anything. It
had just passed a few miles to the east directly over hundreds
of cars on the freeway. I watched it until I couldn't see it
anymore. All the way home I just kept asking myself, "What the
hell was that?" I'm still wondering."

That weekend, I told my ex-wife about it. She is a cocktail
waitress and has conversations with customers. She was told by a
Boeing employee, there is an underground manufacturing facility
where they build a huge triangular craft. Boeing made big news
in 2002 when a story hit the press that they were experimenting
with anti-gravity propulsion. So, just what did I see? Was it an
alien craft or a secret military craft? I don't know. Thanks to
Gary Val Tenuta Everett, WA

POULSBO - Bangor Naval Sub Base - The witness spotted a strange
light looking westward from the eastern shore of the Kitsap
peninsula on September 16, 2004 at 9 PM. He saw a light in the
sky that was moving in an erratic fashion relative to the stars.
The light would move left and right and up and down in small,
seemingly uncoordinated actions. The light would change colors
and emit green to red to orange lights. There was light emitted
from the corners of the object at 45-degree angles relative to
the ground. AnA aircraft looked as if it flew within a few
hundred feet of the object and after passing the object, both
the aircraft and the light disappeared. Thanks to Peter
Davenport Director, http://www.ufocenter.com/


LAKE WASHINGTON - The observer pulled up in front of his home in
Leschi on September 18, 2004 at 7:45 PM., and saw unusual lights
over the I-90 Floating Bridge near Seattle. He got out his
binoculars and observed the craft as it headed north over Lake
Washington, finally disappearing behind some trees. The lights
were in a triangular configuration of the lights, which swooped
down from above and then turned north. The observer said, "With
the binoculars, I was able to discern a dark triangular shape
which " was completely silent, flying low and slow at maybe 500
feet at about 50 knots. I have never seen anything like this:
there are always a lot of planes flying west over our house and
then turning south to land at Boeing Field, but these planes are
much higher and you can always hear the jet noise. As this
unknown craft got farther up the lake, I was observing the tail
of the craft and noticed flashing white, red and yellow lights
somewhat like "disco" lights. I estimate that this craft was
about the size of a 737. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director,
http://www.ufocenter.com/

TROUT LAKE - Around September 21, 2004, a 48-year-old female,
who owns a house and property on the lake, witnessed an
interesting light on three separate nights about 3:45 AM.  Its
white light appeared suddenly and seemed to reflect color, as
would a prism.

The light assumed about the same position and maintained it for
a while and then moved fluidly and gracefully in a curved path.
The light seemed within ten miles and was low on the horizon.
There was no detectable sound, although on one occasion the
coyotes were agitated and barking. It disappeared suddenly and
completely. There are many odd lights in the middle of the night
in this area lately? This light does not seem to fit any
category I've witnessed before?Argentina - Fireballs Down Trees

Patagonian Forest -- Ultimas Noticias reports that on September
26, 2004, inspectors discovered trees occupying a space
equivalent to a city block in the forest near Ushuaia had been
uprooted, piled pointing south. INFOBAE.com says, the first
explorers to reach the site, thought an aircraft had collided,
but there was no fuselage lost among the branches. Locals told
of having seen fireballs plunging from the sky days earlier,
which--according to them--could have been the answer to the
mystery. But none of Athe trees are burned.  In the northern
part of the site, the tree trunks have been severed at a height
of six to seven meters, which validated for several witnesses
the theory that the impact had been a meteorite, a UFO, or
satellite-- falling from the sky.  Thanks to: Scott Corrales,
Translation (c) 2004.

ARGENTINA - Night Saucers

Bahia Blanca -- The UFO phenomenon was seen on September 27,
2004, when several drivers traveling to Bahia Blanca saw red and
white lights in the sky for several minutes, which later
vanished over the fields. Drivers on their way back from Monte
Hermoso to Bahia Blanca reported having seen several flying
saucers on National Highway 3 and Route 229 near Punta Alta.

Carlos Ceria, a resident of Punta Alta and one of the witnesses
to the event, said "he was 'driving on Highway 3 when, to the
left of the road, my family and I observed two flying objects of
great luminous intensity and whitish in color.  Afterward,
having turned onto Route 229, we also saw red lights suspended
in the air for 15 minutes, but then seemed to turn off, as
though there was a landing strip on the field, Ceria added.
Sources at the Traffic Police in Bahia Blanca, a large city
located 180 miles south of Buenos Aires, reported that "many
people claimed to have seen UFOs, but it isn't something that
can be investigated by the police. Several drivers phoned us
last night to report that they had seen UFOs on National Highway
3, in the location known as Bajo Hondo, said the police
spokesman. (See the InfoBAE Website 9/282004, "UFOs reported in
Monte Hermoso.) Thanks to Scott Corrales y Gloria Coluchi

Australia - Objects Rise Up

St. Clair, NEW SOUTH WALES -- On September 30, 2004, in the
Penrith area, at around 6:05 PM, the 16 years old daughter and
42 year old mother of Indonesian decent spotted a reddish/orange
dot with a faint white center dormant in the sky. A second
object came from underneath at 90 degrees and met with the other
object and they started moving at the same speed to the left and
disappeared into a cloud. They tried getting images with the
daughter's digital camera and the mother's camera phone, but
they did not pick up the objects. They had another sighting when
the daughter was 10 years old.

At 8:45 PM, they spotted them again, but this time another
witness my friend/neighbor also spotted the object in the EXACT
same position, except this time the one on the left headed
further out west at a fast speed, and the other one was heading
on an angle towards the ground. At 9:22 PM the witness reports,
"We saw six more very bright objects come from the ground, and
they split up! It was amazing! Some neighbor's saw them and we
agreed it was an amazing sight, some headed back towards the
ground, some went left, right and everywhere. I have pictures of
a pretty bad quality on my camera phone but I do not have a way
to upload them." Thanks to Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO
Research. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director,
http://www.ufocenter.com/


India - Experiencing UFO Sightings Sumit Chatterjee, Special
Correspondent October 07, 2004

Thousands of UFO sighting in Northern India near the Himalayas
is surprising many including the Indian Government and military
personnel. In 1940 to 1960, thousands of UFO sighting were
experienced in America - the major superpower with Nuke
capabilities in those days. According to some UFO researchers,
India is on the verge of becoming the most sophisticated nation
in the world and the extra terrestrial groups are likely to
contact the Indian Government, if not already done! When a
country emerges as majoAr power, these groups contact the
Government to let it know the order of the Universe. For
example, some UFO researchers say that India is being briefed on
possible usage of Nukes and space exploration. According to
sources, the five members of the Security Council all know the
order of the Universe. The extra terrestrial bodies set the
rules and dictate what these countries can and cannot do. India
is now a would be powerful nation! These UFO sighting will go up
in the next ten to fifteen years and the Indian military will
learn a lot from them. A group of Indian scientists here are
pouring over a bunch of photographs they took in the northern
Himalayas depicting a mystery object but are nowhere near
cracking the mystery.white ones. It hovered around for about 45
minutes some 200 meters from us. We were curious to know more
and took photographs," said Anil Kulkarni, a marine and water
resources scientist with the city-based Space Application Centre
(SAC) of the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO). He was
part of the team that spotted and photographed the object during
a just-concluded study trip to the northern state of Himachal
Pradesh, bordering AChina.While camping in the Samudra Tapu
glacier region, 14,500 feet above sea level, near Chandratal,
Kulkarni saw the curious object at 7.00 a.m. September 27, 2004.
"There were balloons attached to this unusual object. It had
'legs' but we could not see the 'hands'. It was moving closer to
the hilltop. The object started moving in our direction when we
started walking towards it. But when our porters made a noise,
it moved away towards the hilltop," he said. The object remained
stationary for about five minutes after reaching the hilltop,
then moved away in another direction before it disappeared, he
added.

"Interestingly when it was exposed to the sun, it turned black
and in the shadow of the hill, it became white," the scientist
said. In all probability, he opined, it was not a balloon as it
was moving against the wind. It could also have been a spy
device, a possibility that cannot be ruled out in a border
region. "It is too early to say whether it was an espionage
device. The photographs have been submitted to ISRO and only a
detailed analysis by experts can tell us what it was," Kulkarni
felt.

http://www.skywatch-international.org/skywatch_membership_application.pdf
http://www.skywatch-international.org/skywatch_membership_application.pdf
Visit The Skywatch-International Web Site
http://www.skywatch-international.org/


The Greater UFO/ET Congress of 2004

Will be held November 6 and 7th 2004, 11:00 am to 3:00 pm
Saturday and Sunday at the The Days Inn, Route 206 & NJTP Exit
#7 North Bordentown NJ, 609-298-6100 For more information visit
www.DRUFO.org or phone Pat Marcattillio (609) -631-8955 or Tom
Benson (609)-883-6926 after 6:00 PM.


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   Oct > Oct 14

             Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor? -

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 20:14:07 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:17:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor? -


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:10:40 +0000
>Subject: Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor?

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 20:46:37 EDT
>>Subject: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor?

>>Source: The Charleston Gazette - North Carlina

>>http://wvgazette.com/section/News/Today/2004101137

>>10-12-04

>>Author follows the trail of the Braxton County Monster

>>By Rusty Marks
>>Staff writer

>>Frank Feschino Jr. didn't plan on becoming a UFO researcher when
>>he first heard about the Braxton County Monster.

>>"I'm not a writer, I'm an artist," the 45-year-old author said
>>in a telephone interview from his home in Daytona Beach, Fla.

>>"I didn't start out with the intention of writing a book."

>>But the book, "The Braxton County Monster: The Cover-Up of the
>>Flatwoods Monster Revealed," has just been published by Quarrier
>>Press in Charleston. Feschino will talk about the book and his
>>work trying to uncover the mystery of the famed monster at 4
>>p.m. Sunday at the Charleston Civic Center as part of the West
>>Virginia Book Festival. The festival runs from 9 a.m. to 6 p.m.
>>Saturday and noon to 6 p.m. Sunday, and all events are free.

<snip>

>>Feschino thinks something similar happened on the night of Sept.
>>12. UFOs were spotted over the ocean, he says, and fighters were
>>sent to intercept them, resulting in massive aerial battles.

>Just what Ufoology needs, more dramatic, totally imaginative
>science fiction. Where is the evidence of these `massive aerial
>battles'?

>>Several fighter planes were destroyed in the fights, but some
>>UFOs were hit as well, Feschino asserts. One of them crash-
>>landed in Flatwoods, and the UFOs seen later on Sept. 12 and the
>>next night were attempts to rescue the downed craft.

>Where are the reports of UFOs?

><snip>

>>Feschino's book will be released to stores on Saturday. It will
>>be available locally at Taylor Books in Charleston and B. Dalton
>>at the Town Center mall. The book may also be ordered by calling
>>Quarrier Press at 342-1848.

>>To contact staff writer Rusty Marks, use e-mail or call 348-1215.

>One-sentence book review: Utter paranoid nonsense.


Simple question Dick. Have you read the book? Have you
researched the events of Sept. 12, 1952?


Stan Friedman







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                              Christmas Ufology

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 17:15:40 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:18:47 -0400
Subject: Christmas Ufology


Fellow Listarians,

It is that time of year when Santa will soon be making his
appearance in the proverbial UFO!

If you need stocking stuffers for that Ufologist in you life the
following MP3 compilations are available with guaranteed
delivery if orders are received by December 1st. Remember,
postage to anywhere in the world is included in the donation.

1. The First Ufologist: Major Donald E. Keyhoe - An Audio
Retrospective. 10+ hours, 20 recordings. $20 USD.

2. Flying Saucers and Four Guys Named George: Adamski, Van
Tassel, Hunt Williamson and King. 16.5 hours, 25 recordings. $25
USD.

3. ETH: Dr. James E. McDonald (and others). 11+ hours, 20
recordings. $20 USD.

4. CE IV: Audio History of Alien Abduction and Animal
Mutilation. 25.5+ hours, 56 recordings. $30 USD.

5. Project Magnet: Wilbert B. Smith and Canada's Search for
Flying Saucers. 6+ hours, 16 recordings. $20 USD.

6. High Strangeness: Men in Black, Flatwoods Monster, Mothman
and Hairy BiPeds in UFOs. 7+ hours, 14 recordings. $20 USD.

7. Ufology: A Primer in Audio - 1938 to 1959. 8+ hours, 101
recordings. $20 USD.


All 7 Compilations Special: $125 USD.

Why read stuffy old UFO books when you can hear the history on
your computer or MP3 player?

PayPal accepted. Just use my email address or mail check/MO to:


Wendy Connors
P.O. Box 8552
Albuquerque, NM 87198

Jingle Bells, Jingle Bells...Ho-Ho-Ho! Thank You for supporting
the Audio History of Ufology Project!

www.fadeddiscs.com








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                    What's New With The Bob Lazar Story?

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 19:20:25 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:20:36 -0400
Subject: What's New With The Bob Lazar Story?


Hi Honorable Listers,

The name Bob Lazar came up in a conversation and I found this
post on this List from Mr. Campbell.

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/jun/m22-012.shtml

I was wondering if there'd been any updated news on the adventures
of Bob Lazar.

Only thing I know is that they put out one cool as heck model
kit based on his info.


Best,

Greg








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             Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor? -

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 20:30:10 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:22:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor? -


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 20:46:37 EDT
>Subject: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor?

>Source: The Charleston Gazette - North Carlina

>http://wvgazette.com/section/News/Today/2004101137

>10-12-04


>Author follows the trail of the Braxton County Monster

>By Rusty Marks
>Staff writer

>Frank Feschino Jr. didn't plan on becoming a UFO researcher when
>he first heard about the Braxton County Monster.

<snip>

The above article was in the Charleston Gazette, in Charleston, West
Virginia, not North Carolina


Stan Friedman








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                       The Official Report Black Hole

From: Simon Hicks <slh.nul>
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:09:30 +0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:30:34 -0400
Subject: The Official Report Black Hole


While reading Hynek's UFO Report the other day, it struck me
that there have been many cases where the military witness has
allegedly filed a report of their experience with
superiors/intelligence.

Has _any_ attempt been made to track these reports as to where
in the hierarchy these reports are sent? Any sort of
paper/contact/report trail established i.e. not only filing
cabinets but also eyes and ears exposed to the reports on their
way to their ultimate resting place?

I realise this would be a very difficult exercise within even
the most mundane of bureaucracies and in the most recent of
timeframes. However, you just never know what may turn up if you
have a go.


Regards

Simon








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                        UFO Sightings Pick Up In Ohio

From: Kenny Young <ufo.nul>
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 05:20:59 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:32:18 -0400
Subject: UFO Sightings Pick Up In Ohio


Multiple OHIO Sightings
Summary Update

By
Kenny Young

In the days after taking a number of unusual rumors and odd
reports of strange activity from the northeastern Ohio area in
the last week of September, UFO sighting reports have continued.
While future updates are pending on a report that North Olmsted
police officers have taken a sequence of unusual UFO
photographs, a female talk-show radio host from Case Western
Reserve University has reported having several photographs of a
two tube-shaped or blimp-like objects seen in the Cleveland area
surrounded by approaching jets. One of the objects reportedly
'vanished' while under observation. Evaluation of these photos
are pending.

Separately, incoming UFO sighting reports were received by the
Cincinnati UFO Hotline at a frequency and rate that was felt to
be of some surprise; one report of a female caller claiming two
witnesses to mutli-colored, lighted objects visually spied near
Westfield, Indiana in late September. Another caller reported
three witnesses to an object near Tiffin, Ohio, while other
callers reporting unusual activity in Southern Ohio along the I-
75 corridor from Dayton south to Springboro/Franklin.

At 10:22 p.m. on Thursday evening, Oct. 7, 2004, a female caller
to the Cincinnati UFO Hotline (513-588-4548) sought to report
unusual lights seen near Springboro, Ohio. The witness was
contacted around 10:30 p.m. and said that the sighting took
place around 2-hours earlier, about 8:30 p.m.

She said that while riding as a passenger in a car near
Springboro, Ohio, driving on Clearcreek / Franklin Road and
crossing a bridge over Interstate-75, she looked to the south in
the vicinity of Middletown and spotted 1 very bright light. She
sid this was a huge light, yellowish orange in color and
composed of two smaller lights inside of the bright light. The
object hovered for what she thought could have been two minutes
with no motion detected as she observed it. She said the driver
did not see the object nor did she mention it until the object
'dimmed out' and vanished completely.

"I should think that other people saw this," she said, while
adding that it was seen over I-75 to the south of her location.
The object was seen clearly and estimated to be lower than an
airplane. There were no trees obstructing her view and the
object was seen out over the open highway, causing her to
believe there would be other witnesses.

The witness thought to have seen the same thing about a month
ago in the same area, and at that point gathered some
information online about earlier sightings near Springboro.

"This was some kind of huge light and it wasn't a plane," she
said. "plane lights just don't 'go out' and the lights were much
larger than lights on a plane.

The witness said that she lives near the Wright Brothers Airport
and easily recognizes airplane headlights.

A second report of UFO activity from the Southern Ohio area was
received by a man from the Dayton, Ohio area.

A retired policeman contacted the Cincinnati UFO Hotline (513-
588-4548) to report a UFO sighting. The 51-year old officer, who
had spent 21-years on force, called to report observing a red
and blue light source that had appeared in Dayton, Ohio skies at
least 2 nights in a row.

The object was first seen beginning early during the morning of
October 4 around 2:30 a.m., first observed to the east of his
residence. The officer said that the object held a fixed
position in this same location until at least 4:30 a.m. when he
quit watching, having gone to bed. The officer said that again
the next morning (Oct. 5th), the object had reappeared in the
same place and at that point, he guessed it to be a star.

However, the officer said that on the third morning of October
6th, the object was not there in the same location at the same
time of day, nor was it there last night or this evening. He
affirmed that he has been looking in the same place at the same
time of day.

The retired officer lives on east end of Dayton, the object was
viewed on the two consecutive nights in the eastern skies from
2:30 a.m., viewed near the WHIO TV tower on Wilmington Pike, to
the east of his vantage point.

He characterized the object as a blue and red light source that
held an estimated 400 foot elevation. The object seemed to
flicker like a star, but was lower than any other star and much
larger. He said it almost appeared to rotate. He attempted to
view the object through binoculars on the second night but could
not ascertain any detail, guessing it to be holding position at
some distance.

On Sunday, October 10, a man near Ft. Wayne, Indiana videotaped
something in the sky The object, according to UFO researcher
Roger Sugden, had a sound explanation. It was an airplane.
However, an Assistant Professor of Geosciences as IPFW and an
astronomer at the Ft. Wayne Astronomical Society weren't so
sure, offering quite different explanations. Those stories can
be viewed at
the following links:

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/usworld/news-article.aspx?storyid=25686

http://www.wishtv.com/global/story.asp?s=2416065&ClientType=Printable

October 11, 2004

'UFO' Spotted Near Fort Wayne

Fort Wayne - A resident here got out his video camera and caught
an object moving through the sky at a high rate of speed on
Sunday.

Brandon McBroom used the family videocam to tape a strange
looking object in the Sunday sky. He pulled over in the
Croninger Elementary parking lot and pointed the camera north-
northwest.

WANE-TV took the tape around town Monday to the experts. "That's
not a meteor. It's too slow," said Roger Sugden, Assistant State
Director with Mutual UFO Network. "High altitude aircraft. If
 you've seen them at sunset, they're pretty far away. People
don't know what they're looking at. You'll see a white line
that's moving real slow, that's the contrail and in front is the
aircraft."

But Christopher Crow, Assistant Professor of Geosciences at
IPFW, thinks this is a meteor. "Whatever that is, it's coming
down at a very fast  speed. That's what's causing it to heat up
- the friction in the atmosphere to the  point where it's
creating plasma, giving off flames," said Crow.

"My first inclination is it's not a meteor," said Chris
Highland, who is from the Fort Wayne Astronomical Society. His
opinion is different from  the other two. "I'm more inclined to
think this is space junk, like an empty booster or a fuel tank,"
said Highland.


End of article

--
UFO Research
http://home.fuse.net/ufo
Cincinnati UFO Hotline 513-588-4548
Kenny Young







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                    Re: UFO Disclosure Scenarios - Smith

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 09:00:19 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:34:12 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Disclosure Scenarios - Smith


>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 11:16:06 -0700
>Subject: Re: UFO Disclosure Scenarios

>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 12:56:17 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>>Subject: Re: UFO Disclosure Scenarios

>>OUTCOMES

<snip>

>Scenario C-5:
>The creatures have lived on earth and evolved on earth and are
>what Ivan Sanderson called "Invisible Residents" who probably
>live under the sea:

>"That they are for the most part over-civilized and quite mad
>is, in my opinion an open ended question but quite probable.
> Perhaps we will never be able to cope with them until we, too,
>all go quite mad, and it looks as of now as if we were doing our
>level best to achieve this presumably enviable estate."

>          --Ivan Sanderson -Invisible Residents, 1970


Yes, I forgot about that one. I liked that book when I read it
long ago. As I recall, he postulates animals that buzz around
the skies and under water. I think the outcome if it were
animals would likely be public outrage that they have not been
"controlled" by our government, much like other hostile animals.

I did not recall his speculation of co-evolving Earth residents
operating UFOs. Sure there is alot of discussion elsewhere of
underground civilizations. In any event, the outcome of that
kind of announcement would be public panic because the
government apparently could not control the menace.

Thanks, I will add these to the list!

This brings up the point that it seems if the UFOs are _any_
type of uncontrollable (at least by human abilities) and
sentient nature, then a governmental announcement of the facts
would be foolish because it would cause panic/etc. Only in the
case of controllable phenomena using our tech would it make
sense to announce facts that aliens/whatever _are_ UFOS. But
obviously since we do not seem to have controlled the skies or
stopped the hostile UFO events, this scenario must not be the
case.








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                        Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Smith

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 09:08:43 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:35:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Smith


>From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 17:53:27 +0100
>Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile?

>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 13:25:40 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>>Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile?

>>Law abiding humans don't steal other people's cattle, cut out
>>rectums/eyes/tongue and then drop the cattle right back where
>>it was taken. Oh yes, first they electrify them.

>James, "law abiding humans" do all that and more - to fully
>self-conscious beings right here on Earth, in the name of
>authoritarian "science".

>http://www.perceptions.couk.com/authority.txt
>is a very mild example.

>What does that say about relative "hostility" of ETs vs. humans?

Look, "law abiding" means "not stealing" among other things.

I agree that things like Project Ultra and similar projects are
very bad. However, if the participants have been given every
right/explanation/compensation then they can participate in ANY
heinous experiment they want. When we are not given choices,
that is fundamentally wrong.

Really, we should hold any "advanced" alien race to a much
higher standard of ethics or morality. Given that they have
acquired vast information, knowledge, they should have been able
to deduce proper behavior. If not then they are essentially
hostile. Our level of behavior, while inconsistent amongst the
population, is generally based on basic laws/codes that seem
applicable through the Universe. If aliens fundamentally ignore
or worse diagreee with these laws/codes then they are hostile
(at least with reference to us).








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                    Re: UFO Disclosure Scenarios - Smith

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 09:33:26 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:36:27 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Disclosure Scenarios - Smith


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 11:51:27 -0500
>Subject: Re: UFO Disclosure Scenarios

>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 12:56:17 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>>Subject: Re: UFO Disclosure Scenarios

>>OUTCOMES

<snip>

>>You missed one...

>Scenario NOW - Mexican officials reveal that they have
>encountered a UFO and have no explanation. They do not announce
>that there is a prosaic explanation. They release the available
>data to the UFOlogy community to attempt to explain the data.
>UFOlogists discuss, TV shows play the video for all viewers, no
>panic ensues, no complete explanation is found to date, the best
>theory found to date is untested, and paradigm continues
>unfazed. Some think it is oil flares, and some think it is alien
>craft. Each is satisfied with their conclusion.

>The government revealed its lack of knowledge, yet no panic
>occurred.

Yes, I was trying to figure out how to catagorize this event.
The announcement was of ignorance.

If it had been possible for external bodies to prove using the
data that the FLIR UFOs were alien craft, then the public would
raise Cain as to why the military was not doing anything about
them. The military would be forced to state that they can do
nothing about alien craft because they are too advanced. Tthen
the public will panic of a threat will exist to the society
which cannot be protected againt. This would be clear if other
data is released (not even by the government) showing the
hostile behavior of UFOs.

If the government had released all UFO data they had about every
case that they ever came across and professed ignorance, hoping
that someone else would do their work, then I am sure that
enough data would exist to state whether UFOs are alien craft or
not. Included I am sure would be many obvious hostile cases. The
result would be public outcry and panic about not being
protected by the government against these aliens.

But the result now is either ambiguity or definite prosaic
explanation. This has the complex outcome of showing the public
that _most_ UFOs are likely this (generalization), and inference
of incompetence with regards ot the Mexican military/governement
for not being able to do this work themselves or at least form a
blue ribbon panel of PhDs and technical experts to examine it
rather than to have to fall back on mostly unpaid UFOlogists of
unknown credentials.

So I have to think a little more how to catagorize this.








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                Re: 'UFO' Spotted Near Fort Wayne - Reynolds

From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 08:36:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:41:24 -0400
Subject: Re: 'UFO' Spotted Near Fort Wayne - Reynolds


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 10:53:09 -0500
>Subject: Re: 'UFO' Spotted Near Fort Wayne

>>From: Peter Davenport - National UFO Reporting Center <director.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 09:51:41 -0700
>>Subject: Re: 'UFO' Spotted Near Fort Wayne

><snip>

>>My vote is for a contrail.

>Agreed. When I was waiting for a glimpse of Comet Hale-Bopp a
>few years back, I saw just this kind of effect. A white *bar*
>appeared in the western sky as the sun was just above the
>horizon before dusk. At first, I thought this was the comet.
>After about 2 minutes, I realized that it was a jet whose
>contrail was made incredibly bright by the sun.

>Funny I never thought it was a UFO... it appeared too, organic,
>I suppose. Looked like a bright smoke trail or something. I
>could never see the craft that made the contrail, but it
>eventually faded. The comet made its appearance a while later,
>but that spectacular display made me forget completely the
>contrail until you mentioned it, and the conditions required. It
>did look amazingly like the cited video.


Hey, fellows...

If you see the on-air video (or the original), you'll find the
"object" looks considerably different than what is depicted by
the still at the WISH-TV or WANE-TV websites.

I put the whole news segment online at:

http://www.wildesociety.org

as the download file. While that file is huge (89 megs), I think
you can download the first few megs, where the object is shown
clearly.

If not, let me know, and I'll provide a better still image of
the thing at one of our websites.


Rich Reynolds
Fort Wayne MediaWatch







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                    Conference Will Be Out Of This World

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:44:06 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:44:06 -0400
Subject: Conference Will Be Out Of This World




Source: The Edmonton Sun - Alberta

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/EdmontonSun/News/2004/10/14/668285.html

10-14-04

Conference Will Be Out Of This World

Keith Bradford
Edmonton Sun

Jim Moroney doesn't talk about his "experience" when he gives
lectures on health and safety. Heck, he didn't even tell his own
kids about it until they were in their late teens.

Then again, discussing an alien encounter - or worse, being
abducted - doesn't generally make for great small talk.

"In some ways you feel like you are an Eskimo trying to explain
what a desert is like," said Moroney, executive director of the
Alberta Municipal Health and Safety Association and an expert on
alien abductions.

"Most people have a feeling of isolation. When you look at some
of the psychology work that has been done, the biggest thing is
that our society really doesn't accept these (encounters) can be
possible.

"These people really don't want to talk to anyone about it in
most cases - even a therapist."

Moroney, one of three speakers at a UFO conference being held at
the University of Alberta on Saturday, said his own experience
happened about 20 years ago just south of Winnipeg.

"I was just getting out my (car) to stretch my legs when I saw a
craft. It wasn't from this world, that's for sure," he said.

"There wasn't any sound - it just hung motionless. There were
lots of bright lights ... It was rather disturbing."

The experience turned Moroney into a believer and he now
investigates province-wide sightings as a member of the Alberta
UFO Study Group.

He said he hasn't had a sighting since that day - and has never
had the chance to meet any little green men.

But his work with a couple of reclusive Albertans who claim to
have been abducted in the last few years has convinced him that
might not be a bad thing.

"Some of these experiences can be rather difficult," said
Moroney, 44. "People say they've been taken by a being into a
ship and medical procedures have been done.

"They say the experiences do bother them. It's upsetting. It's a
situation that's beyond their control."

Moroney said he's convinced an apparent increase in UFO
sightings - in Alberta and worldwide - is a sign that aliens are
trying to help. "They are concerned about what's happening in
the world."

The UFO conference, which includes talks about cattle
mutilations and Alberta sightings, starts at 8:30 a.m. Saturday
at the University of Alberta conference centre.

Tickets are $10.








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                         US "President Is An Alien"

From: Joel Carpenter <crediblesport.nul>
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:14:48 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:47:57 -0400
Subject: US "President Is An Alien"

Source: Salon.Com

http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/archive.html?blog=/politics/war_room/2004
/10/13/mars/index.html

10-13-04

This Just In: The President Is An Alien

Bush campaign manager Ken Mehlman was deep into his pre-debate
spin with a group of reporters in Tempe this afternoon when he
was asked about the bulge on Bush's back. "I didn't see it, I
didn't pay attention to it, "Mehlman said. "I was amused to hear
that someone thought it was a transmitter."

Mehlman kept saying he doesn't know what people saw in the suit,
and he started joking about whether his own suit had a bulge. A
reporter cut him off and asked: "Who knows what it is?" Mehlman
responded: "I do not know. I will try to find out and tell you."

Pressed for a "legitimate explanation," Mehlman said: "The
President is an alien. You heard it here first. The President is
an alien. That's your quote of the day. He has been getting
information from Mars. The shock of the debate will be the
president's alien past will be exposed, which is why that box is
there."

When Mehlman was done laughing, War Room asked him why the White
House or the Bush-Cheney campaign won't come clean about what
caused the bulge. "I have to tell you, I really don't know the
answer to the question. We will try to find out the answer. I
honestly don't know the answer to that question. I did not
notice the box. As a guy that buys suits off the rack, I'm used
to suits that don't fit right. If I were in your business, I'd
be able to get tailored suits."

We'll be waiting for Mehlman to get back to us. In the meantime,
we also put the question to Bush-Cheney spokesman Steve Schmidt
and RNC Chairman Ed Gillespie: Why not put the story to rest by
saying what caused the bulge? Both men laughed, Schmidt said
"Stop.", and then they walked away.


-- Tim Grieve









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                        Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Smith

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 07:50:01 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:55:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Smith


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 11:40:24 -0500
>Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile?

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 12:48:32 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile?

>>James has articulated a good list of hostility signs and
>>indicators and I just don't buy your alien-apologist responses.
>>They have no business messing with our business.

>We are attempting to apply human motivations and ideologies to a
>race which we don't even know exists, but which we assume has
>incredibly different capabilities.

Lets assume for the sake of argument that an advanced alien race
is visiting us. We are not talking about 10 years advanced but
>1000 yrs. For such creatures to be advanced they have to be
able to think, acquire information, perform rational thought.
Doing these things would enable them to understand OUR
motivations and ideologies. I don't expect them to adopt our
motivations and ideologies. However, they SHOULD show respect
for us based on the principle of how would they like it if a
race >1000yr advanced beyond them started acting "hostile".

Hostility is an observed behavior pattern. It may be that all
the alien hostile acts are well meant (I doubt it). But we can
only base our judgements in this society on observations.

>We can't mimic their technology, we don't know how they travel
>or communicate but they must be driven by the same Cro Magnon
>instincts with which we are endowed?

No, but these guys would be "advanced", meaning, hopefully, that
they "care". If they don't "care" then they can be considered
hostile because you never know when they will pick you out to do
a little experiment on (much like a lab researcher and a mouse).

>Simplistic, ethnocentric, and typically arrogant. Very human.
>But safe. Until we attempt to express our outrage at their
>hostility. Say we pluck one out of the sky for violating our
>airspace...would they perceive us as protecting our
>airspace...or just hostile? Would they *understand*, or send in
>the fleet for a quick end of the world lightshow?

I would hope that if we could really pluck one out of the sky,
they would be very impressed with our abilities, given our
antique technoogy level. Anyway, they aren't going to blast us
because they apparently _need_ us. Nice planets are hard to come
by in the Universe and I am sure they could use it for
colonization purposed if they needed it. But they don't need it,
they need US. The problem I have is that we have no say in this
relationship. Give us a choice!

>The human attitude you display practically ensures our
>destruction if we act on it, and if your suppositions about
>their capabilities are true.

Nonsense! If they need us, they will not destroy us. I do not
know why they need us.

>Aliens may be many things, but they are inherently not human.
>Why jump to the conclusion that they even know what land
>ownership, or sovereign airspace, or radiation burns are?

You vastly underestimate their reasoning powers. And their
ability to read the Internet, the closest thing we have to a
collective mind.

>They might not understand emotion at all.

They might not _have_ emotions. But you vastly underestimate
them to think they cannot understand emotions, even if only
technically and not experientially.

>They may not understand our
>language, or even have voices to utter an insult.

Please, this is ludicrous! We are talking about _advanced_
aliens. Even if the aliens themselves have not taken the time to
learn our language, you can be sure that their amazingly neat
computers and natural language/AI processing have long ago
figured out _all_ our languages.

Who knows or cares if they can talk? Actions speak louder than
words anyway.

>They might not
>even know what an insult is, or what violating a country's
>airspace is. They may not understand politics, or Cold Wars.

They can learn by reading the Internet or simply deducing based
on observing human behavior to know what is important or not. I
can't see how you can limit their understanding so much. If they
were natives of some South Sea island or retarded, then you
might have a case. But these guys _should_, given 1000 yr +
tech, be able to handle easily the simple concepts of a species.

Considering the vast computing powers duplicated over many
vehicles and planets, all they need is raw data to analyze. They
should have gotten that by now with all their invasive data
search and seizures.

>I would suspect that they would find us tedious, dangerous to
>ourselves, wasteful, curious little creatures. Too primitive to
>be worth the time to try to communicate directly, but unable to
>avoid the occasional contact in doing whatever they do here.

Yes, the primitives, the mice, useful only for the alien's
nefarious (or good) purposes, but certainly not with our
permission. Obviously the aliens have not taken human
sensitivity training courses.

>I could be wrong, but I don't think one can logically deduce
>hostile intent based on the thousands of sightings to date, and
>our present status as a non-destroyed civilization.

Logically, you look at the long list of cases and say to
yourself, " Is this a hostile act?". It is amazing that you can
shrug off the cases so easily. Well, I suppose we should just
ignore them and might as well ignore _all_ UFO cases. Why
bother? The aliens have our best interests in their grey hearts!
Lets just have a good time, like the cows in the field (before
milking or slaughter)!

We are not destroyed as I have said because they need us for
some reason, no that we are given a choice.

>You can call indifference hostile, but I don't see it that way
>at all.

If you were having a heart attack and people just walked by for
whatever reason (you are black or ugly or whatever), then I
think you would believe the indifference WAS hostile!

>I could be wrong.

>I find it humorous that I could be called an apologist for
>aliens, when we don't even know for sure that they exist.

You are a defender of aliens, upholder of their rights,
protector of alien freedoms!

>They
>haven't demonstrated enough hostility for us to know for sure.

"Enough"??!! Is one case "enough"? Is one death "enough"?
Or do we need 1000000?

>If they came all this way to kill us off or rape us one by one,
>then as James says, we are doomed, and nothing we can do will
>stop it.

Well, given their tech. I doubt we _can_ stop them if they
really want to anal probe you. But we can put up a heck of a
fight! (Unless one likes that sort of thing).

>I find this conclusion nihilistic, and not based on the
>reality with which we are faced.

>Most engaging argument, until the labels come out. Apologist,
>Progressive. Human labels for derided beliefs. I'm also a
>pelicanist, and a liberal,
>and a conservative, and a meat-eater.

Labels don't help too much, but DO sometimes help understanding.
Name calling is what I do not like. Apologist is really a person
that makes up excuses for someone. In this case, you are making
up excuses for alien hostility. I explained my stance on the
word progressive in another email.

>Maybe I'm an alien. :)

No way! Otherwise I would have been blasted with hostility by
now!








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                Re: 'UFO' Spotted Near Fort Wayne - Reynolds

From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 11:24:04 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:58:06 -0400
Subject: Re: 'UFO' Spotted Near Fort Wayne - Reynolds


>From: Santiago Yturria <syturria.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 15:30:09 -0500
>Subject: Re: 'UFO' Spotted Near Fort Wayne

>>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 14:04:29 -0500
>>Subject: Re: 'UFO' Spotted Near Fort Wayne

>>I've contacted WANE-TV to see if they can put the UFO segment
>>online at their website, for download as a streaming video. (I'm
>>awaiting a call-back.)

>>Meanwhile, I've uploaded the news segment, consisting of the
>>video and interviews about it (around 3 minutes in length), to a
>>website we have:

>>http://www.wildesociety.org

>>The download will take a very long time via broadband and
>>especially for those with dial-up; the file is 89 megs in size,
>>but it's the complete WANE news segment as aired.

>Thank you for posting the link to the WANE TV UFO report. I just
>see the report and find this kind of burning falling object very
>familiar with other cases with the same characteristics and we
>called them UFO meteors because of the shape. Many theories
>about them and it seems they keep appearing.

>Of all these cases documented on video the most spectacular one
>in my opinion is the filmed by Helene Solberg in Asker, west of
>Oslo Norway. This object is seen moving very low and slow but
>more like flying than falling. Intriguing footage.

>Here is the link to the video for all of you to see.

>http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article442072.ece

Santiago and others...

I've placed a clearer, undoctored still image of the object
spotted over Fort Wayne, Indiana last weekend at one of our
web-sites:

http://pinevalley.homestead.com

NASA claims it was a returning-to-earth booster rocket, but that
explanation is disputed by others.

Rich Reynolds
Fort Wayne MediaWatch







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             Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor? -

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:41:50 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:59:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor? -


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 20:14:07 -0300
>Subject: Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor?

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:10:40 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor?

>>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 20:46:37 EDT
>>>Subject: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor?

>>>Source: The Charleston Gazette - North Carlina

>>>http://wvgazette.com/section/News/Today/2004101137

>>>10-12-04

>>>Author follows the trail of the Braxton County Monster

>>>By Rusty Marks
>>>Staff writer

>>>Frank Feschino Jr. didn't plan on becoming a UFO researcher when
>>>he first heard about the Braxton County Monster.

<snip>

>>One-sentence book review: Utter paranoid nonsense.

>Simple question Dick. Have you read the book? Have you
>researched the events of Sept. 12, 1952?

Okay, the reason I posted this story was because it brought back
memories of when I was a wee lad about 3 or 4 years old.

In those days folks just adopted anybody into their family. My
family when there's a big get together looks like a U.N.
Assembly meeting. It's because my great grandfather had a rule
that anyone was welcomed as long as they had manners. From every
race and religion I've got kin and it's funny!

Reason I'm mentioning this is because I recalled two things of
an eerie nature. People were very rural back then and there was
always a 'cousin' that stayed so far back in the hills you had
to truck in daylight to reach them. They were an unusual lot
with unusual abilities. Looked kind of 'odd' too.

One event that comes to mind is while on a trip through the
Carolinas my aunt took me to some relatives in the Black
Mountains. They're Cherokee folk. Our ancestors meandered
through a vast cavern system throughout the east coast. I
remember being awakened late night or early morning to meet an
old medicine man of some sorts in a cave. Lemme tell you I
kicked and screamed as he was very odd looking. Brown, wrinkled
with big ears that were pointed. I'm not supposed to be talking
about this mind you but what the heck.

All I gathered was this gent was very, very old and special for
some reason. Then a few years later during Christmas shopping my
mom and aunts took me to the Montgomery Ward to look at toys.
Suddenly I started into a fit to be tied. We'd run across a
floor model toy of some lizard man thing called the 'Great
Garloo' if I recall and can spell correctly and I turned the
store out screaming and kicking. To them it was funny.

Let's say for example strange visitors from whereever did
intermingle with us during the course of human history. Yet
today's aesthetics push them into the hidden areas. Stories of
persons of great strength and unusual abilities permeate our
collective histories. That's up until the gun was invented and
flourished.

Recently scientists discovered a new species of ape in Africa.
Big critters that build ground nests and the locals call 'Lion
Killer'. How'd a 6 foot tall primate escape our view with all
our new fangled technologies?

Recently I talked to some doctors who read comic books growing
up with stories of strange mutations and such like the popular
'X Men'. That was the one comic book I couldn't read. Too
oddball for me. Yet they told me that in their years of work
they'd seen births and anomalies that the medical community
keeps silent about! It's to protect the families' reputation or
some such. The variations on a theme are sometimes too horrid to
describe. Some from toxins, radiation, nutrition. I guess the
closest thing we've seen publicly are the mutations that occured
during the Soviet Chernobyl aftermath. Quite gruesome to say the
least. The doctors told me that at any given time, what the new
revelations in genetics has brought forth is that any one of us
could begin to exhibit mutations of a dynamic nature. They just
don't know when or what.

There's lots of woods, caves, and mountains to explore gang. I
think one day we may well find that there are more things in
heaven and earth than is beyond our understanding.

Best,

Greg








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                          Secrecy News -- 10/14/04

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 11:35:32 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:01:52 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 10/14/04


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 90
October 14, 2004


**      US COVERT ACTION IN BOLIVIA, 1964-1966
**      FINAL REPORT OF THE IRAQ SURVEY GROUP
**      INTELLIGENCE REFORM IN AFRICA
**      SAUDI ARABIA: TERRORIST FINANCING ISSUES (CRS)
**      US SPACE PROGRAMS: CIVILIAN, MILITARY AND COMMERCIAL (CRS)
**      POSTPONEMENT OF ELECTIONS (CRS)


US COVERT ACTION IN BOLIVIA, 1964-1966

Last month, the U.S. government quietly acknowledged and
described a CIA covert action program in Bolivia during the
Johnson Administration.

The acknowledgment came in the form of an "editorial note" that
was published in the latest volume of the official State
Department series Foreign Relations of the United States, 1964-
 1968, on South and Central America and Mexico.That volume also
described the CIA's clandestine role in the 1964 election in
Chile.

A contemporary CIA document cited in the "editorial note"
described the program as follows:

"The basic covert action goals in Bolivia are to foster
democratic solutions to critical and social, economic, and
political problems; to check Communist and Cuban subversion; to
encourage a stable government favorably inclined toward the
United States; and to encourage Bolivian participation in the
Alliance for Progress."

"The main direction and emphasis of C[overt] A[ction] operations
is to force Communists, leftists, and pro-Castroites out of
influential positions in government, and to try to break
Communist and ultra-leftist control over certain trade union,
student groups, and campesino organizations."

The editorial note was approved for publication by an
interagency High Level Panel that reviews historical covert
actions for possible acknowledgment in the FRUS series.

"That editorial note is the text of the statement approved by
all three [High Level Panel member] agencies--State, CIA, NSC--
 to acknowledge the covert action," one official explained to
Secrecy News.

Remarkably, the editorial note provided budget figures for the
CIA program in Bolivia, which peaked at $545,342 in fiscal year
1964.

This is surprising since the CIA has consistently refused to
declassify such figures on its own.Even today the Agency argues
in federal court, with legal support from the Justice Department
Office of Information and Privacy, that such historical budget
information must be withheld from disclosure. But there it is.

See the High Level Panel editorial note on CIA covert action in
Bolivia, published in late September, here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/advisory/state/bolivia.html


FINAL REPORT OF THE IRAQ SURVEY GROUP

The final report of the Iraq Survey Group (the Duelfer report)
documenting the search for prohibited weapons in Iraq was
published October 6 by the Central Intelligence Agency on its
web site.

But the CIA edition of the document was posted in an awkward
format -- three monstrous files of 50 to 75 Megabytes each --
 that practically guarantees the report will go unread by all
but a committed few.

Now a much more digestible html version of the report is
available from GlobalSecurity.org here:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/report/2004/isg-final-
 report/


INTELLIGENCE REFORM IN AFRICA

Imposing the discipline of democracy on intelligence and
security services is a continuing challenge even in societies
that have a longstanding commitment to democratic governance. It
is vastly more difficult in emerging and aspiring democracies.

The prospects for intelligence reform in several Africa
countries are surveyed in a new publication of the Global
Facilitation Network for Security Sector Reform in the United
Kingdom.

See "Providing Security for People: Enhancing Security Through
Police, Justice, and Intelligence Reform in Africa," edited by
Chris Ferguson and Jeffrey O Isima, September 2004:

http://www.gfn-ssr.org/edocs/gfn060_pfsp2.pdf


SAUDI ARABIA: TERRORIST FINANCING ISSUES (CRS)

A new report of the Congressional Research Service "reviews
allegations of Saudi involvement in terrorist financing together
with Saudi rebuttals, discusses the question of Saudi support
for religious charities and schools (madrasas) abroad, discusses
recent steps taken by Saudi Arabia to counter terrorist
financing (many in conjunction with the United States), and
suggests some implications of recent Saudi actions for the war
on terrorism."

See "Saudi Arabia: Terrorist Financing Issues," October 4, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/man/crs/RL32499.pdf


US SPACE PROGRAMS: CIVILIAN, MILITARY AND COMMERCIAL (CRS)

An updated overview of U.S. space-related activities is provided
by the CRS in "U.S. Space Programs: Civilian, Military and
Commercial," September 28, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/spp/civil/crs/IB92011.pdf


POSTPONEMENT OF ELECTIONS (CRS)

Another new CRS report considers the legality of postponing
elections for federal office.

"Because of the fear of possible terrorist attacks which could
be directed at election facilities or voters in the States just
prior to or during the elections in a presidential election
year, attention has been directed at the possibility/authority
to postpone, cancel or reschedule an election for federal
office."

"The United States Constitution does not provide in express
language any current authority for a federal official or
institution to 'postpone' an election for federal office," the
CRS notes.But that is the beginning of the discussion, not the
end.

See "Postponement and Rescheduling of Elections to Federal
Office," October 4, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/RL32623.pdf

CRS policy prohibits direct public access to reports like these.


_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

Secrecy News has an RSS feed at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:saftergood.nul
voice:(202) 454-4691








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   Oct > Oct 15

                     Re: UFO Disclosure Scenarios - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:19:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 07:22:24 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Disclosure Scenarios - King


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 09:33:26 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>Subject: Re: UFO Disclosure Scenarios

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 11:51:27 -0500
>>Subject: Re: UFO Disclosure Scenarios

>>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 12:56:17 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>>>Subject: Re: UFO Disclosure Scenarios

>>>OUTCOMES

><snip>

>>>You missed one...

>>Scenario NOW - Mexican officials reveal that they have
>>encountered a UFO and have no explanation. They do not announce
>>that there is a prosaic explanation. They release the available
>>data to the UFOlogy community to attempt to explain the data.
>>UFOlogists discuss, TV shows play the video for all viewers, no
>>panic ensues, no complete explanation is found to date, the best
>>theory found to date is untested, and paradigm continues
>>unfazed. Some think it is oil flares, and some think it is alien
>>craft. Each is satisfied with their conclusion.

>>The government revealed its lack of knowledge, yet no panic
>>occurred.

>Yes, I was trying to figure out how to catagorize this event.
>The announcement was of ignorance.

>If it had been possible for external bodies to prove using the
>data that the FLIR UFOs were alien craft, then the public would
>raise Cain as to why the military was not doing anything about
>them. The military would be forced to state that they can do
>nothing about alien craft because they are too advanced. Tthen
>the public will panic of a threat will exist to the society
>which cannot be protected againt. This would be clear if other
>data is released (not even by the government) showing the
>hostile behavior of UFOs.

>If the government had released all UFO data they had about every
>case that they ever came across and professed ignorance, hoping
>that someone else would do their work, then I am sure that
>enough data would exist to state whether UFOs are alien craft or
>not. Included I am sure would be many obvious hostile cases. The
>result would be public outcry and panic about not being
>protected by the government against these aliens.

>But the result now is either ambiguity or definite prosaic
>explanation. This has the complex outcome of showing the public
>that _most_ UFOs are likely this (generalization), and inference
>of incompetence with regards ot the Mexican military/governement
>for not being able to do this work themselves or at least form a
>blue ribbon panel of PhDs and technical experts to examine it
>rather than to have to fall back on mostly unpaid UFOlogists of
>unknown credentials.

>So I have to think a little more how to catagorize this.

Hi James,

Fair enough. While there is a fundamental disagreement in our
respective views, I don't doubt or question the logic of your
arguments... only the conclusions drawn.

You have laid out a carefully crafted set of premises from which
one is able to clearly align themselves one way or the other,
and for that you deserve kudos.

Whichever conclusion is justified in the end, the discussion has
yielded some good documentation useful for either or any
viewpoint.

I understand as well the reasons for presuming hostile intent
from actions. As I have stated, they are primordial, natural
reactions. We are not so far removed from that primordial
reality because there is so much we still just don't know. We
learn new things almost frighteningly often, and paradigms are
being reborn almost daily in a number of converging fields. With
diligent efforts, you are right that we will be able to
individually involve ourselves in the search for UFOs, and to be
able to privately (non-government) visit near-space, and
monitor and track incoming objects. If that doesn't hasten the
understanding of these objects, I can't think of anything better
that would, except full disclosure by the govt, a possibility
against which you convincingly argue. And better understanding
is what we would all agree is the desirable outcome of this
increased observational capability, no? So, there is some
agreement in our positions. We deserve and strive to know more
and, government disclosure not forthcoming, we strive to find
out on our own.

I hope the answer is provided in our lifetimes. I hope too that
if that is to be, our worst fears are proven unfounded.

Kudos for an excellent series of posts! But I hope you're wrong.
:)

With Respect,

Kyle







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                    Re: US "President Is An Alien" - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:28:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 07:23:40 -0400
Subject: Re: US "President Is An Alien" - King


>From: Joel Carpenter <crediblesport.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:14:48 -0400
>Subject: US "President Is An Alien"

<snip>

>Pressed for a "legitimate explanation," Mehlman said: "The
>President is an alien. You heard it here first. The President is
>an alien. That's your quote of the day. He has been getting
>information from Mars. The shock of the debate will be the
>president's alien past will be exposed, which is why that box is
>there."

<snip>

>-- Tim Grieve

Hey Tim,

Geez... I don't mind James and his hostile alien thread, but now
their just outright insulting the aliens.

Bush an alien... riiiight. That'll probably get us incinerated
all by itself.

For shame... :)


Kyle








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              Re: India UFOs & The Coming Global Supersilliness

From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 20:34:44 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 07:26:10 -0400
Subject: Re: India UFOs & The Coming Global Supersilliness


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:08:23 EDT
>Subject: India UFOs & The Coming Global Supersilliness

>Source: India Daily

>http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/10-13h-04.asp

>10-13-04

>Sources in the Government and UFO researchers opine like
>America, India is on the verge of gaining military and civilian
>technologies from extraterrestrial visitors! Another major
>superpower?

>Sumit Chatterjee
>Special Correspondent

I repeat: who is this guy?

>According to some UFO researchers and think-tanks all over the
>world, India's recent experiences with countless UFO near the
>Himalayas are significant. India is one of the nations in the
>world with largest number of technocrats and education is
>regarded as one of the major pride in every Indian family.
>According some inner circles in the Government and the defense
>establishments, India is on the verge of gaining technologies
>for civilian and military purposes from the extra-terrestrial
>cultures. Some strongly feel India and America are the two
>champions of free speech and democracy. And that is why they may
>have chosen India to lead the world to the order of the
>Universe. According to many the order of the Universe is to live
>peacefully, share knowledge and be spiritually elevated. And
>India is just ready to lead the world towards that. Which other
>nation can gain futuristic technologies and not gobble up the
>world?

>India's Air Force, Navy and Army will gain immensely from these
>technologies.

Just like American forces have up to now.

>The main theme of these technologies is anti-
>gravity driven vehicles and spatial motion control in 3D. Some
>say America thirty years back was offered vehicles and
>spacecraft that ran based on anti-gravity. America's biggest
>secret research is on that. The Stealth technology that makes a
>flying vehicle invisible to radar or similar electronic eyes is
>also from the extra-terrestrial know how, researchers say.

>India may gain immensely from these technologies and become a
>super power.

Better hope Pakistan does not gain them first.

>Indian technocrats and dedicated military personnel
>will be able to harness these technologies and bring peace to
>the world. India is probably the only country that spiritually
>inclined. That makes a big difference. Those who have a close
>encounter with extra-terrestrial being say they are spiritually
>elevated and the energy levels are very high from those beings.
>It is also said that final frontier of science and technology
>will come from integration of human spirituality and modern
>science and technologies.

>India is also learning about the order of Universe - the
>common courtesy and the law of the Universe. Some say year 2012
>is when they will land on earth. And for that matter India is
>one of the chosen countries for pilot projects.

Again we hear from this Sumit Chatterjee. Perhaps it should be
Sumit Chatterbox.

So the ETs "may have chosen India to lead the world to the
order of the Universe".

But haven't they been doing just that with the USA during the
preceding 5 decades?

I am desperately awaiting the year 2012.

But woe betide the ETs if they land in Kashmir by mistake,
because if they do, they might find Pakistani, rather than
Indian, troops arrive first to greet them.

CDA

Watch out all you Americans. India will soon be the focus of all
the abductions & crashes that have hitherto been almost totally
focussed on the US.

The US cannot expect to be the focus of the ETs forever!


CDA








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                      Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Dickenson

From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul>
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 20:55:22 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 07:27:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile? - Dickenson


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 07:50:01 -0700 (PDT)
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Subject: Re: Are UFOs Hostile?

>Hostility is an observed behavior pattern. It may be that all
>the alien hostile acts are well meant (I doubt it). But we
>can only base our judgements in this society on observations.

James, that sounds OK but analysis shows it's just not so.
Context is all.

Both you and I have probably been in male groups (gang, college
or military etc) where tough joshing, graveyard humor and
`break-a-leg' philosophy (hidden sympathy) would all be observed
as deeply "hostile" by a gently-reared outsider.

And how about an alien society which for a million (or ten M)
years has been bio-engineering even intelligent animals to be
_grateful_ to go under the knife (for experiment or food)? Would
they even _think_ about our thoughts?

Note: only a generation or so ago self-centered doctors were
injecting children with curare (a paralizing drug) before
serious surgery. The children were _not_ anesthetised and would
have experienced agonies under those knifes but the doctors
never thought to ask them - and in those days kids didn't
question what adults did!

{As tiny tot I remember having a tooth yanked without anesthetic
because school dental nurse put me in wrong line. It all seemed
pretty normal - if painful - to me!)

It's important to remember that real aliens are _not_ mammal-
like, or insect-like, or reptile-like or even fish-like - those
are all Earth animals (but we don't know how _they_ feel about
us). Aliens are something-else-like -  there's no way we can
know how they think.

Context is everything.

Cheers

Ray D








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                  Re: The Official Report Black Hole - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 15:33:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 07:31:15 -0400
Subject: Re: The Official Report Black Hole - King


>From: Simon Hicks <slh.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:09:30 +0800
>Subject: The Official Report Black Hole

>While reading Hynek's UFO Report the other day, it struck me
>that there have been many cases where the military witness has
>allegedly filed a report of their experience with
>superiors/intelligence.

>Has _any_ attempt been made to track these reports as to where
>in the hierarchy these reports are sent? Any sort of
>paper/contact/report trail established i.e. not only filing
>cabinets but also eyes and ears exposed to the reports on their
>way to their ultimate resting place?

>I realise this would be a very difficult exercise within even
>the most mundane of bureaucracies and in the most recent of
>timeframes. However, you just never know what may turn up if you
>have a go.


Hi Simon,

Even the easily-accessible literature is rife with military
cases where the evidence... film, audio, photos, etc., vanished
mysteriously. Sometimes even the mere report seems to disappear.

The Disclosure Project includes several example of official
reports that seem not to officially exist.

I guess the FOIA is a dead-end too, since many of these events,
if true ET cases or military craft, would be kept secret for
reasons of national security.

If you believe the witnesses then the government and
specifically the military seemingly has no problem ridiculing
the informants by silence, or by announcing that a particular
story is hogwash.

One day, maybe someone will get inside that huge warehouse where
all the proof is held... like the one at the end of Raiders of
the Lost Ark... and get a few mementos. One of those Dulce
'flash-guns' would be pretty cool, or a chunk of element 115, or
a piece of Roswell memory metal. Something to stoke the fires a
little. It's about time for a tantalizing new revelation, isn't
it? Even the disinfo guys appear to have fallen asleep.

Alas, highly unlikely in my estimation. It will more likely be
up to us to take advantage of the new technologies filtering
down to us mortals, in a diligent effort to produce evidence to
better support a grounded theory on these events. My guess is
that we will find some new phenomena to add to the mystery, and
perhaps answers to some existing ones.

Whatever impetus for disclosure that prompted leaking of the
MJ-12 documents - if they are genuine - it appears to have
fallen out of favor, or at least out of sight for the time
being.

Like finding new planets, or new asteroids, the public having
access to new technologies at mortal prices will hopefully usher
in a new wave of information outside the bureaucracy. Applied to
the UFO field, the chances for discovery are good, as some truly
gifted minds are involved even now. Given the tools, we may be
at the threshold of a renaissance in ufology. An industrial
revolution of detection, monitoring, imaging, even attempts to
communicate is becoming more possible every day. With the
present focus on homeland security, a case could easily be
made that this is analogous to the plane spotters from the WWII
days (a home-spun, low-tech DEW line), and an adjunct to the Ham
radio community, already accepted as a fundamental part of our
disaster and emergency apparatus, and fully civilian. This kind
of unified study could even unite the SETI and Ufology crowds
for the synergistic potential of such a collaboration. At least
both communities could tap into huge existing respective
communities of folks interested in helping answer the ET
question. Strength in numbers. Ufology could gain from studying
the sociological structure of the SETI.nul movement. An
existing model for widespread participation in analyzing data.

As the cost of high-tech gear falls further and further into the
reach of 'regular Joes', the answers we seek may not require any
help from the military or academia at all.

An ambitious vision, but it must start somewhere. Poring over
archives and rehashing old cases is obviously suffering from
diminishing returns. New revelations about old cases generally
add little substance to the debate, except as fodder.

We may find that 99% of UFOs are known and little-known natural
phenomena, but even that is valuable. By easily and confidently
culling out the newly known, we would be able to focus on the
truly unknown cases, and that should net some progress.

Wherever the answers lie, they do not seem forthcoming from our
present authorities. Even asking seems to just close more doors.


Regards,

Kyle









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                        Re: Christmas Ufology - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 15:41:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 07:32:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Christmas Ufology - King


>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates <UFOUpdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 17:15:40 -0600
>Subject: Christmas Ufology

>Fellow Listarians,

>It is that time of year when Santa will soon be making his
>appearance in the proverbial UFO!

>If you need stocking stuffers for that Ufologist in you life the
>following MP3 compilations are available with guaranteed
>delivery if orders are received by December 1st. Remember,
>postage to anywhere in the world is included in the donation.

<snip>

>All 7 Compilations Special: $125 USD.

>Why read stuffy old UFO books when you can hear the history on
>your computer or MP3 player?

>PayPal accepted. Just use my email address or mail check/MO to:

>Wendy Connors
>P.O. Box 8552
>Albuquerque, NM 87198

<snip>

Hi Wendy,

Wow! I'm glad I waited to purchase. Getting all 7 sets for $125
is a steal.

I want the whole lot. It's far easier to get even an interested
teenager to listen to a CD than read a book. And the CDs last a
good bit longer, as well!

A great way to use my 20GB mp3 jukebox, too!

Kudos! And a Merry X(file)-Mas to you,


Kyle








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             Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor? -

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 20:04:43 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 07:36:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor? -


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 20:14:07 -0300
>Subject: Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor?

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:10:40 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor?

>>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 20:46:37 EDT
>>>Subject: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor?

>>>Source: The Charleston Gazette - North Carlina

>>>http://wvgazette.com/section/News/Today/2004101137

>>>10-12-04

>>>Author follows the trail of the Braxton County Monster

>>>By Rusty Marks
>>>Staff writer

>>>Frank Feschino Jr. didn't plan on becoming a UFO researcher when
>>>he first heard about the Braxton County Monster.

>>One-sentence book review: Utter paranoid nonsense.

>Simple question Dick. Have you read the book? Have you
>researched the events of Sept. 12, 1952?

Simple question, Stan. Have you any evidence of vast aerial
battles over the Atlantic between UFOs and jet interceptors in
September 1952? Follow-up question: Are you seriously defending
this book?

 - Dick

P.S. The Donald E. Keyhoe Archives (and the official records and
documents compiled for 1952) contain extensive information about
1952 sightings and related news reporting. Nothing about the
wild fantasies that you appear to be accepting.








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             Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor? -

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 22:33:32 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 07:41:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor? -


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 20:14:07 -0300
>Subject: Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor?

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:10:40 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor?

>>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 20:46:37 EDT
>>>Subject: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor?

>>>Source: The Charleston Gazette - North Carlina

>>>http://wvgazette.com/section/News/Today/2004101137

>>>10-12-04

>>>Author follows the trail of the Braxton County Monster

>>>By Rusty Marks
>>>Staff writer

>>>Frank Feschino Jr. didn't plan on becoming a UFO researcher when
>>>he first heard about the Braxton County Monster.

>>>"I'm not a writer, I'm an artist," the 45-year-old author said
>>>in a telephone interview from his home in Daytona Beach, Fla.

>>>"I didn't start out with the intention of writing a book."

Maybe you should stick to art.

>>>But the book, "The Braxton County Monster: The Cover-Up of the
>>>Flatwoods Monster Revealed," has just been published by Quarrier
>>>Press in Charleston. Feschino will talk about the book and his
>>>work trying to uncover the mystery of the famed monster at 4
>>>p.m. Sunday at the Charleston Civic Center as part of the West
>>>Virginia Book Festival. The festival runs from 9 a.m. to 6 p.m.
>>>Saturday and noon to 6 p.m. Sunday, and all events are free.

><snip>

>>>Feschino thinks something similar happened on the night of Sept.
>>>12. UFOs were spotted over the ocean, he says, and fighters were
>>>sent to intercept them, resulting in massive aerial battles.

He 'thinks' that does he?

>>Just what Ufoology needs, more dramatic, totally imaginative
>>science fiction. Where is the evidence of these 'massive aerial
>>battles'?

I don't understand why responses to this message were posted
before it was, but yes, I repeat the question.

>>>Several fighter planes were destroyed in the fights, but some
>>>UFOs were hit as well, Feschino asserts. One of them crash-
>>>landed in Flatwoods, and the UFOs seen later on Sept. 12 and the
>>>next night were attempts to rescue the downed craft.

'Feschino asserts.' A serious illness of the internet is that
people 'assert' all sorts od crazy things without evidence.

>>Where are the reports of UFOs?

>>>Feschino's book will be released to stores on Saturday. It will
>>>be available locally at Taylor Books in Charleston and B. Dalton
>>>at the Town Center mall. The book may also be ordered by calling
>>>Quarrier Press at 342-1848.

>>>To contact staff writer Rusty Marks, use e-mail or call 348-1215.

>>One-sentence book review: Utter paranoid nonsense.

>Simple question Dick. Have you read the book? Have you
>researched the events of Sept. 12, 1952?


So far I have been given no reason to pay any attention
whatsoever to alleged events for which there is not the
slightest evidence in historical records.

 - Dick









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               HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 10-14-04

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO Research <hbccufo.nul>
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 20:08:03 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 07:43:56 -0400
Subject: HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 10-14-04


HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings

Release Date: October 14, 2004



East bound I-80 near Daton Ohio Football Shaped Object

Date: 1981
Time: 10:00 p.m.

Number of witnesses: 1
Number of objects: 1

Shape of objects: Central vertical football shape with 3
horizontal tubes at 120 degrees apart extending from the center
with 1/3 smaller vertical football shapes on the end with large
cat eye shaped white lights on each one.

Full Description of event/sighting: Traveling home to
Middlefield Ohio on Interstate 80 after visiting a seminary in
Fort Wayne, Indiana, on a cloudy, winter night I saw what I
thought were the lights of a jet traveling eastbound on the
south side of the highway. I watched for at least 10 minutes.
The plane seemed to rise in altitude and at one point seemed to
bounce up and the lights seemed to suddenly flash much brighter
for an instant and then dim to the brightness of landing lights.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

---------------------

Outside Death Valley And Las Vegas Objects Performing
Unbelievable Maneuvers

Date: 2000 ?
Time: Approx: 11:20 a.m.

Number of witnesses: 2
Number of objects: 2
Shape of objects: Silver, rounded.

Full Description of event/sighting: A sighting that I had was
about four summers ago when me and my mom were on our way to
Vegas to visit family. On the way there, past death valley and
about 1-2 hours away from our destination, we noticed two silver
objects really high up in the sky above us and the mountains to
our left. They were performing unbelievable maneuvers, high
speed accelerations across the horizon and break neck turns that
simply no man made jet could do, and I'm very into the design
and structure of aircraft and aircraft themselves. These two
objects were whipping around, darting around each other, flying
around each other, ascending to extreme altitudes and falling
back down across the sky with the other right on its tail. Some
of the turns they pulled would kill an average man, it was
absolutely amazing. My mom was driving and asked me to keep an
eye on them as she too tried to keep her fix on them. Coming up
on the freeway we noticed that four police and highway patrol
vehicles were stopped and parked on the right shoulder of the
road. All the officers were standing outside their cars with
binoculars watching everything that was going on. The whole even
that I witnessed lasted about nine minutes. Is it possible they
were man made, some sort of test? We wondered that, but it was
just too incredible and too fast to be human.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

------------------

Sky Over Thousand Oaks, California Round, Sphere Of Light.

Date: Approx: 2002
Time: Approx: 2:00 a.m.

Number of objects: 1
Number of witnesses: 2
Shape of objects: Round, sphere of light.

Full Description of event/sighting: This is actually the second
sighting of the kind I've had but this was the most profound. I
stayed the night at my friends house and the power ended up
going out over most of Ventura County around 1-1:30 a.m.. We
weren't exactly tired so we decided to go outside and check
stuff out. When we got out side we were out on the street trying
to see how far the power outage ranged and were in company of
one of his cats. After a few minutes of talking we noticed a
very bright, illuminated object slowly cruising the sky back
over behind his house high in the sky over what looked like the
area of Agoura or Moorpark. This light gave off a slight pulse
and was as far as we both could see moving slow and giving off a
orange yellow light. Sometimes a bit of blue could be seen, but
it still moved very slow and very precise. We debated what it
could be, maybe a plane or a UFO, but it was just so ominous, it
had such a feeling to it that made you uncomfortable.

Then, as we both were fixed on it, it immediately shot off in
the opposite direction from which it was heading, and it was
gone. Stupified, we couldn't believe what we had witnessed. One
second it was slowly cruising, the next- gone, and it moved so
fast you could actually see its image drag across the sky. After
that, it definitely left a very eerie feeling.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

----------------

Camarillo, California Glowing Sphere

Date: 2002 ?
Time: 7:36 p.m.

Number of witnesses: 2
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Glowing Sphere, radical reaction of speed and flight.

Full Description of event/sighting: This story is a Prelude to
the one you posted of mine on the 13th of October- I did say it
was the second incident of the kind but the most profound,
however it is very creepy I had two very similar encounters
within the same year.

This time, I was in Camarillo, up north of Thousand Oaks, where
I live. I was at my Dad's house, getting ready to have some
dinner with the family. My Aunt was there as well, and we both
went outside, her to have a cigarette and me to get some air. We
both made small talk when we noticed a light in the sky hovering
over the western most part of the city, in the opposite
direction of the Camarillo Airport. We watched it for a bit, and
as before it was very similar. Glowing, orange-yellow light
pulsating with sometimes a bit of blue. But, before any thought
could be taken into the object sped forward, halted, sped
completely backwards, than once more forwards at longer length
than the first attempt to flee, and than rocketed off backwards
and disappeared. Again, it moved so fast it appeared to drag its
image across the sky. This occurred all within a matter of
minutes, but the reaction of the UFO happened in only 1-2
seconds, and it was simply gone. The Second incident, happened
almost 4 months later.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

------------------

Colorado Springs Objects Moving Around Like A Humming Bird

Date: August/September/October ?
Time: Evening

I think you might find this of interest! I live in Colorado
Springs and for the last four months I have been seeing these
same objects every night usually five or six of them. They move
around like a humming bird. Twice I have seen them up close
about a mile away It was a very bright light red on top blue on
bottom white in the middle when it would start moving the lights
would switch places on each accession right before it left a
white and green beam shot out of the bottom then it shot
straight away till it looked like a regular star. one sighting
looked to be over Norad the other looked like it was over
Shriever air force base.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

------------------------

Mazarron, Murcia, Spain Triple Sighting Of Unusual Clouds

Date: August 8, 2004
Time: 1:45 - 2:00 p.m.

Ref. The recent sightings list at Rense.Com.
25.9.04 Coquitlan, BC.

I have had a triple sighting of similar clouds here in Spain. I
did send in a poor hurried report to you, but have re typed it
with more accurate information. I have since the original
report, been able to give the height of the mountain to the
east, over which two of the clouds came, so low, that I only saw
them as the rounded the top, and there was no space between the
mountain and the lower cloud. They continued across the valley
at this height. Linda Franklin

Thursday 8th August 2004. Mazarron, Murcia, Spain.

Between 13.45 and 14.00. Hot day, temperatures in high 20�s C,
light breeze, enough to stir the leaves, clear blue skies. No
clouds to the north, east or south, Clouds forming to the south
west, up and over the distant hills, and moving to the west.
These hills start at about four miles south, and run down the
coast southward.

 Walking the dog up the road, in a northwest direction I noticed
a bright white cloud ahead. It caught my notice, as there were
no other clouds visible in the sky. It was intensely white.

I walked to within 150 yards of the end of this road, where at
the end there are a line of trees, all about 40 to 50 feet high.
This cloud seemed to be very close behind the trees and low.
Half of it was below the top quarter of the trees, the remainder
in clear view. It was swirling like clouds do, changing shape
and forming tails that broke off into small pieces of cloud,
move away, and seemed to go back into the main cloud. Then the
cloud seemed to evaporate a little and re build it�s self again.
I watched for two or so minutes, and it disappeared totally. I
turned back to home, but glanced back about 15 seconds later and
the cloud was back again in the same spot.

On reaching home, I took my binoculars and went up onto the roof
of the block of apartments. I estimate the deck to be about 65
feet high.

There are three blocks in a row all of about the same size, from
the roof you can only see the roof of the next block. There sure
enough was the cloud, but it must have been higher than it�s
original position as it appeared to be a few feet higher then
the top of the roof of the next block, and was quite close. It
was doing as I previously described, shrinking, fading enlarging
and disappearing. It did not drift in any direction, but
remained in roughly the same spot, suddenly to vanish
completely.

There were no other clouds in the sky remember. Suddenly a round
cloud, appeared over the top of the hill to the west, a mile
from here, it looked about half an inch across, remained
stationary there for about a minute, then vanished.

The cloud re appeared in the original spot above the building
within seconds of this.

The cloud evaporated again, and the round cloud appeared over
the same hill slightly to the right and lower than before. It
changed shape, ending up seeming to stand on end in a curved
line, and just vanished.

It reappeared over the end of this line of hills three miles
away to the north, remaining stationary. It did not appear to
change shape, and seemed a little bigger than when it was
closer.

I then noticed a large cloud appearing from behind the line of
hills to the north, in direct line with the round cloud. It came
slowly in a straight line, stopping a distance away from the
round cloud. Neither moved as I watched for about a minute.

When the cloud came over the hill it must have been very low, as
I only saw it as it came over the top. It seemed flat. Both the
circular and the flat cloud remained stationary during the rest
of the sighting.

 When I glanced back in the to centre of the valley to my
amazement there were ten or more small clouds over various parts
to the west of the valley, some below and some above the top
line of the hills to the north. These cloudlets changed shapes,
evaporated or grew larger, some starting with a small dot of
white, and developing into small clouds about the size of my
little finger nail. The cloud over the roof was back again in
the original position.

 I became aware of a large cloud coming over the hills to the
east, eight miles or more from here. It too must have been very
low, as I only saw it as it came over the top of the hill. It
slowly came in a straight line across the middle of the valley,
between me and the hills that run north to east, four or five
miles away.The hill is between 1500 and 1800 meters high. It was
followed about 15 seconds later by an identical cloud, at the
same height as before, and on the same flight line as the first.
They were travelling at the same slow speed and kept the same
distance. The first one at its closest point was between me and
the hills to the north east, and would have been about two or
two and a half miles from me at this point, and there was about
two inches of sky between its bottom edge and the tops of the
hills It seemed to be about 14 inches long and about half this
width. These clouds looked like two slices of bread, they seemed
rectangular in shape, the front edges being straight. I was not
able to see he backs. Both the tops and the bottoms were flat,
as were the sides. There was not movement within the clouds, and
they appeared a little bumpy, so that a quick glance from below
they would look like clouds. The first cloud reached a point
almost level with me and all four clouds simultaneously began to
evaporate

There was not a cloud to be seen. After a few minutes the
original cloud re appeared.

I had to leave at this point. Sighting lasted 25 minutes. On the
roof

At 18.00 hours I had to go out, and the cloud was once again
over the trees at the end of the road. I did not have time to
observe it, and it was gone when I returned an hour later. There
were no other clouds in the sky anywhere.

I would like to add the following points.

The area was heavily populated with Holliday makers, most of
whom would have been on the beaches, with their backs to the
clouds. However one beach faces the hill to the east, over which
the clouds appeared, and they would have passed directly
overhead. There was no report of anyone having seen them.

Assuming that they had travelled in an straight line before I
saw them, they would have passes between the city of Cartagena,
and St Havier air base/airport.

Cartagena is the H.Q of the Spainsh Navy, and their are radar
stations one the hills surrounding the city, and St. Havier is
the Airforce Training base, and a civil  airport. Even they
would have shown up on the screens. My Spanish is not good
enough to make enquiries. The one that travelled from the North
would have passed close to the Army tracking Station thirty
miles from here.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

-----------------------
Boyceville Wisconsin More Circular/Disc Shaped Objects.

Date: August 31, 2004
Time: Between 10-11:00 a.m.

Number of witnesses: 1
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: More circular/disc shaped.

Full Description of event/sighting: I was driving at the time
with my daughter, headed into town. I looked up to see a
chemtrail that was in the sky when I spotted something just a
short distance below the chemtrail. The sun was reflecting off
it as it was just so bright. You couldn't miss is sitting there.
I watched it slowly head upwards in the sky towards the
chemtrail. I told my daughter (who is 7) to look and I pointed.
Of course being a child see was looking everywhere except to
where I was pointing. As it moved upwards it became dimmer and
dimmer then it totally just disappeared. There were no clouds in
that area for it to duck behind.

What made me report this was I just saw the John Tosti picture
and noticed to in that picture the chemtrails and the similarity
of the objects. This is not the first time I have seen something
like this. The first time was back in February when some jets
were spraying. I actually pulled over to the side of the road to
watch this object moving back and forth, in and out of clouds.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

----------------------
San Antonio Texas Yellowish Orange Glowing Object

Date: September 21, 2004
Time: 8:25 p.m.

On Sept. 21, 2004, my wife and I were sitting in my truck
outside the dance studio where our daughter was attending her
Tuesday night practice. It was 8:25 p.m. and dark by then with a
few dark, heavy thunderclouds starting to gather. The parking
lot of the dance studio is rather small so we could see a couple
of other parents in their cars as well.

My wife and I were talking and listening to the radio when I
looked out to the north of San Antonio area and I saw a
yellowish orange glow at a fairly low altitude flying in our
direction. I use the word glowing because it was not bright or
intense but more like a fire flame from the end of a rocket. It
was bigger than aircraft lights when you see one approaching an
airport. This fire light was about 3 times as big as that. I
didn't have to direct my wife's attention because she noticed it
about a second after I did. We immediately got out of the truck
to get a better look and I told my wife it looked like a plane
or helicopter in distress. The yellow orange glowing light
seemed to be dripping off its source and falling. Like candle
wax when a candle is tipped on its side, but in big chunks that
reacted or hung like rubber before detaching and falling. It was
dripping the glowing light but as soon as this light would
separate from its source it would I assume cool down and we
couldn't tell if it disintegrated or kept falling to the ground.

The object kept flying towards our location and suddenly the
glow extinguished itself. The time frame elapsed from the we saw
the glowing object until it extinguished itself was about 20
seconds. The dance studio is close to the intersection of SW
Military and Roosevelt Ave in the southwest part of San Antonio.
There is a big Wal-Mart and various businesses in the area so
light from these businesses shines upwards. I mention this
because when the fire/glow extinguished itself, we were still
able to see the oval object as it kept flying in the sky and
disappeared behind a dark thundercloud. The object made a slight
change in direction and then moved upward as if it was starting
to ascend. The light from the businesses was being reflected off
the object as it moved into the cloud.

My wife immediately called 911 to report the sighting and 911
dispatch connected her to the San Antonio Airport. SAT told her
no aircraft were in distress and they showed nothing in the air
in that area of the city. They San Antonio Airport then gave her
the number to a small airfield about a mile from our location,
"Stinson Airfield" and the Stinson air control also told us they
had no reports of aircraft in distress or any sightings reported
from other aircraft in the area.

Three other witnesses were as perplexed as we were about this
glowing firelight that was dripping part of itself as it moved.
I am curious if you have had similar sightings in Texas or
Canada like this. This object was moving too slow to be
considered a meteor and no sound was heard if this was a low
flying aircraft.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

---------------------

Coquitlam, B.C. Blue Light Over Burke Mountain

Date: September 25/26 2004
Time: 10:00 p.m.

The weekend you were here visiting your dad, on the Saturday
night around about 10 PM. I was looking over towards Coquitlam
and wondering if I could see your dads house from my place. I
saw a single blue light appear near the Hydro lines which run
along Burke Mountain about 1/4 mile east of the gun club. It
vanished before I could grab my binoculars and take a look.
About five minutes later I saw a streak of yellow light flash
from west to east above Burke, possibly meteteorite. To fast to
tell how far away it was. Re the rectangular cloud mentioned in
the one report. I did see something similar one day, don't
remember what time of the day it was but do remember seeing a
rectangular cloud which was just unusual enough to catch my eye.
Very sharply defined edges, I checked it with the binoculars but
couldn't see anything other that the unusual shape. It drifted
behind some other clouds and vanished. I don't think it was
anything but who knows. The white W reported looks similar to
those things I was seeing during the summer.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

---------------------

Pelham Bay, Bronx Small Silver Disc

Date: October 1, 2004
Time: 5:46 a.m.

On October 1, 2004 at 5:46 am I was standing on the Buhre Ave
train platform it was still dark out, early morning, I was
looking up at the sky and just noticed a small silver like disc
moving very slowly across the sky. I though is that a plane, a
star, then it zoomed upward in an instant and was gone.

Additional Information:

I live in the Pelham Bay Section of the Bronx, The Buhre Ave
train station is on the six line one stop before the last stop
before Pelham Bay Park, its an outside station. What I sent you
already is all that I witnessed, a round silver shaped object at
a distance round moving really, really slow...then shot quickly
upwards into the sky, it happened so fast on October 1, 2004
5:56 a.m.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

----------------------

Mesa, Arizona Tiny White/Light Colored Object

Date: October 10, 2004 Time: 11.44 a.m.

Hi Brian,

(Name removed) here - I saw with interest the video of the
object you saw on October 10 11.44 a.m. over Phoenix.

I too saw something similar in the skies at around that time,
although I believe I was further from the object than is shown
in your video.

It appeared to me to be a tiny white/light colored object that I
am estimating was at least 10k feet, although it could honestly
have been as high as 50k ?

I noticed also that there was a westerly/south westerly wind,
but this object did not change its position in the sky, and
appeared from my location in East Mesa to be WSW / WbySW from
me, at about 30 degrees inclination.

It was only just visible to me with the naked eye, and difficult
to resolve without sunglasses.

As I observed it 2 military aircraft passed within 10 degrees of
arc of, flying west to east, one followed by the other about 30
seconds later.

Both seemed to me to be between 5 and 10 thousand feet, and
neither produced a contrail. An airliner then passed at what
seemed to be cruising altitude, and only a very short contrail.

The object was, as I say, static in the sky from my position,
and was obscured from time to time by some cloud, but reappeared
in the same position when the cloud had passed.

It remained in position for at least 10 minutes, although my
Video camera was not able to resolve it at all even with maximum
zoom.

I would be interested to learn your location for the purposes of
triangulation, so we might work out if indeed this was the same
object, and if so, give us some indication of its position.

I very much look forward to hearing from you,

Kind regards.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

--------------------------

Warrington Cheshire Bright White Circular Lights

Date: October 13, 2004
Time: 7:15 a.m.

Number of witnesses: 3
Number of objects: 2
Shape of objects: Bright white circular lights.

Full Description of event/sighting: Upon leaving our home in
Warrington, Cheshire at 7:15 am to take my wife to the hospital
my youngest son pointed to the horizon, almost in the direction
of the rising sun, and we noticed 2, almost star like, white
with a tinge of orange lights slowly moving down passing the
landscape to out of sight. There is what looks like a jet plane
further up in the atmosphere in which they would have got a
brilliant view of the objects. We watched for a short while to
see if we could see anything on the objects, like flashing
lights, to make it show like something that could be man made
but there seemed nothing. No chemtrail either followed the
objects has they made there descent. I've never seen anything
like this before, especially seeing 2 objects that seemed to
stay in some kind of formation. Because of the distance I
couldn't give a much more detailed description but I can attach
snapshot for you to examine if you want. Please get back to me
for this as I wouldn't know who or where to send it to. If
there's any questions that need to be asked please call. I will
help as much as I possibly can.

Yours Sincerely.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

----------------

Books

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Johnstone, A. K

Dr. Johnstone's book was selected by The Anomalous Book List, as
one of the ten best UFO books of 2002.

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disbelieved and even ridiculed. Belief in the existence of UFOs
is obviously not yet mainstream, but that may one day change.
Over the past few decades, reports of UFO sightings have
dramatically increased in North America. Further, these
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menacing. Some reports even imply that these craft are
monitoring our planet.

Interestingly, many of these sightings have taken place over
military bases. In UFO Weather Shield, A.K. Johnstone, PhD.,
explores the details of numerous sightings from a scientific
viewpoint, including descriptions of craft, luminous sheaths and
fireballs. So what, if anything, is the United States government
doing about it? Johnstone suggests that military and government
agencies have the ability to manipulate weather
electromagnetically and with chemtrails to deter unconventional
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To purchase the book, please visit:
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34

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email: hbccufo.nul Website: http://www.hbccufo.com
Redirect: http://www.canadianufo.com HBCC UFO RESEARCH
Newsletter At:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HBCC_UFO_Newsletter/








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Oct > Oct 15

              Re: What's New With The Bob Lazar Story? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 00:44:25 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 08:14:49 -0400
Subject: Re: What's New With The Bob Lazar Story? - Hatch


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 19:20:25 EDT
>Subject: What's New With The Bob Lazar Story?

>Hi Honorable Listers,

>The name Bob Lazar came up in a conversation and I
 >found this post on this List from Mr. Campbell.

>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/jun/m22-012.shtml

>I was wondering if there'd been any updated news on
>the adventuresof Bob Lazar.

>Only thing I know is that they put out one cool as
>heck model kit based on his info.

Hello Greg:

I Googled up "Bob Lazar" and the first link said: "Bob Lazar and
the Physics of Element 115"

I sure don't want to miss out on the physics of Element 115, so
I clicked on the link:

http://www.boblazar.com/

where I read:

"This Bob Lazar website is returning to the Internet on April
30th, 2004 with New and Updated Material."

There is an email link on the otherwise dark page.

Maybe he is busy with more profitable new elements and forgot
all about his website.


Best

- Larry







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Oct > Oct 15

                 Re: US "President Is An Alien" - Stevenson

From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 09:57:43 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 08:16:41 -0400
Subject: Re: US "President Is An Alien" - Stevenson


>From: Joel Carpenter <crediblesport.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:14:48 -0400
>Subject: US "President Is An Alien"

>Source: Salon.Com

http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/archive.html?blog=/politics/war_room/2004
/10/13/mars/index.html

>10-13-04

>This Just In: The President Is An Alien

>Bush campaign manager Ken Mehlman was deep into his pre-debate
>spin with a group of reporters in Tempe this afternoon when he
>was asked about the bulge on Bush's back. "I didn't see it, I
>didn't pay attention to it, "Mehlman said. "I was amused to hear
>that someone thought it was a transmitter."

<snip>

Hi Joel and Listers

The box is quite obviously a free energy devise which provides
the necessary power source picking up the life giving energy
called ORR from the words spoken by George Bush thus also being
a perpetual motion machine demonstrated live on TV.

I think more of this new technology should be shown.


Col
http://www.colsweb.com








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Oct > Oct 15

                                Alienware UK

From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 12:39:31 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 08:18:05 -0400
Subject: Alienware UK


List,

I thought this set of new range of PCs were quite smart!

http://www.alienware.co.uk/

I have nothing to do with this company, but I wish I had one of
their PCs!


Roy









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   Oct > Oct 15

             Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor? -

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 10:27:48 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 11:55:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor? -


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 22:33:32 +0000
>Subject: Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor?

>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 20:14:07 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor?

>>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:10:40 +0000
>>>Subject: Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor?


>>>One-sentence book review: Utter paranoid nonsense.

>>Simple question Dick. Have you read the book? Have you
>>researched the events of Sept. 12, 1952?

>So far I have been given no reason to pay any attention
>whatsoever to alleged events for which there is not the

Dick,

I think you are saying that you haven't read The Braxton County
Monster: The Cover-Up Of The Flatwoods Monster Revealed,
nor done the research. There is a great deal of evidence in the
historical record. Surely you are not saying "don't bother me
with the facts, my mind is made up"??

I visited Flatwoods and the site, reviewed Frank's work, talked
to some key witnesses, dug out lots of published info. Looked at
Blue Book material.

That is why I wrote the foreward and the epilogue and even
mentioned you favorably in the former.

Absence of evidence in your files doesn't mean there is no
evidence.

Read the book, then complain.

You might even read more info on my website or on Frank's:

http://www.flatwoodsmonster.com


Stan Friedman








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Oct > Oct 15

                       Re: Christmas Ufology - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 08:32:57 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 11:59:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Christmas Ufology - Connors


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 15:41:36 -0500
>Subject: Re: Christmas Ufology

>>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates <UFOUpDates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 17:15:40 -0600
>>Subject: Christmas Ufology


>>It is that time of year when Santa will soon be making his
>>appearance in the proverbial UFO!

>>If you need stocking stuffers for that Ufologist in you life the
>>following MP3 compilations are available with guaranteed
>>delivery if orders are received by December 1st. Remember,
>>postage to anywhere in the world is included in the donation.

><snip>

>>All 7 Compilations Special: $125 USD.

>>Why read stuffy old UFO books when you can hear the history on
>>your computer or MP3 player?

>>PayPal accepted. Just use my email address or mail check/MO to:

>>Wendy Connors
>>P.O. Box 8552
>>Albuquerque, NM 87198

><snip>


>Hi Wendy,

>Wow! I'm glad I waited to purchase. Getting all 7 sets for $125
is a steal.

>I want the whole lot. It's far easier to get even an interested
teenager to listen to a CD than read a book. And the CDs last a
good bit longer, as well!

>A great way to use my 20GB mp3 jukebox, too!

Hi Kyle,

Thank you for supporting my humble and meager audio history of
Ufology project. I think you'll have a great Christmas,
especially getting to escape into Ufology's audio land when the
old Christmas movies on the TV get a tad much. <G>

I'm hard at work on new compilations for 2005 Kyle. Here's a
sneak peek:

Cops and Saucers: Law Enforcement and UFOs - 1957 to 1981.

The Great Flying Saucer Flap: 1965 - 1967.

Flying Saucer Poop on Giant Rock: The Contactees (Volume 2).

Lots of recordings on these nobody has heard or knew existed
before, so should be exciting!

And the "Beat goes on" keeping the audio history alive. <G>


Best Always,

Wendy Connors
www.fadeddiscs.com







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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Oct > Oct 15

              Re: India UFOs & The Coming Global Supersilliness

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 11:54:03 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 12:00:37 -0400
Subject: Re: India UFOs & The Coming Global Supersilliness


>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 20:34:44 +0100
>Subject: Re: India UFOs & The Coming Global Supersilliness

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:08:23 EDT
>>Subject: India UFOs & The Coming Global Supersilliness

>>Source: India Daily

>>http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/10-13h-04.asp

>>10-13-04

>>Sources in the Government and UFO researchers opine like
>>America, India is on the verge of gaining military and civilian
>>technologies from extraterrestrial visitors! Another major
>>superpower?

>>Sumit Chatterjee
>>Special Correspondent

<snip>

>>The main theme of these technologies is anti-
>>gravity driven vehicles and spatial motion control in 3D. Some
>>say America thirty years back was offered vehicles and
>>spacecraft that ran based on anti-gravity. America's biggest
>>secret research is on that. The Stealth technology that makes a
>>flying vehicle invisible to radar or similar electronic eyes is
>>also from the extra-terrestrial know how, researchers say.

>>India may gain immensely from these technologies and become a
>>super power.

>Better hope Pakistan does not gain them first.

Hey, wait a minute!

India, Pakistan, UFOs, high tech space craft....

Isn't this how that episode of Star Trek titled 'Space Seed' and
the flick 'Star Trek II: The Wrath Of Khan' started???

Madman with his cronies try to take over the world in the '90's
and when routed out they steal a high tech space ship, go into
hibernation and then 200 years later they're revived by Capt.
Kirk and they try it again?

Something fishy is goin' on here :)


Best,

Greg








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   Oct > Oct 16

                  Holes Shot Through Mutant Monster & Story

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 11:25:35 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 06:41:18 -0400
Subject: Holes Shot Through Mutant Monster & Story


Soruce: The Daily Sentinel -  Nacogdoches, Texas

http://www.dailysentinel.com/news/newsfd/auto/feed/news/2004/10/15/1097814973.18
121.9557.4630.html

10-15-04


Expert Says Mystery Beast Is A 'mangey Coyote'

By Johnny Johnson
The Daily Sentinel

Nacogdoches, Texas - As it turns out, volatile chemicals from a
top secret experiment aboard the space shuttle Columbia were
probably not responsible for producing some kind of mutant
killer deer-dog that is running around deep East Texas sucking
the blood from goats.

Anyone who logs onto the Internet and runs a Google Image search
for "Coyote" and "mange" may see some animals that look
surprisingly like the strange looking "Pollok Mystery Beast"
killed Friday in Angelina County.

But SFA forestry professor and deer expert Dr. James Kroll
didn't need the World Wide Web to help him identify the creature
- he sees them fairly regularly.

"That thing's a mange coyote," Kroll said. "I've been seeing a
lot of them lately. We've even photographed some."

When a coyote loses all its hair it will typically end up with
scabs all over its body and its skin turns a bluish color, which
according to Kroll is why some locals and especially old-timers
refer to "mange" as "the blues."

"It's perplexing to me that most people did not know it," Kroll
said. "People were calling me asking 'Have you seen that thing
that's a cross between a kangaroo and a rat?' I don't know what
to say - people love that kind of stuff."

On Thursday, The Daily Sentinel received several calls of
"mystery beast" sightings throughout Nacogdoches and Shelby
counties.

"Periodically we get a bad case of mange that runs through them
pretty badly and knocks the population down," he said. "I'm
sorry it's not something more exotic than that, but that's all
there is to it. I've seen them dozens of times."

Kroll also said sightings of similar-looking animals could
happen all over the state and even the nation, as coyotes can be
found just about anywhere in America.

As for the so-called experts who have been puzzled by the
origins of the beast, Kroll said he can't help but question
their titles.

"I hope they are not really 'experts' who have anything to do
with wildlife," he said. "Because if they are, I'm worried."









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   Oct > Oct 16

              Re: India UFOs & The Coming Global Supersilliness

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 13:17:47 -0300
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 06:44:15 -0400
Subject: Re: India UFOs & The Coming Global Supersilliness


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 11:54:03 EDT
>Subject: Re: India UFOs & The Coming Global Supersilliness

>>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 20:34:44 +0100
>>Subject: Re: India UFOs & The Coming Global Supersilliness

>>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:08:23 EDT
>>>Subject: India UFOs & The Coming Global Supersilliness

>>>Source: India Daily

>>>http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/10-13h-04.asp

>>>10-13-04

>>>Sources in the Government and UFO researchers opine like
>>>America, India is on the verge of gaining military and civilian
>>>technologies from extraterrestrial visitors! Another major
>>>superpower?

>>>Sumit Chatterjee
>>>Special Correspondent

><snip>

>>>The main theme of these technologies is anti-
>>>gravity driven vehicles and spatial motion control in 3D. Some
>>>say America thirty years back was offered vehicles and
>>>spacecraft that ran based on anti-gravity. America's biggest
>>>secret research is on that. The Stealth technology that makes a
>>>flying vehicle invisible to radar or similar electronic eyes is
>>>also from the extra-terrestrial know how, researchers say.

>>>India may gain immensely from these technologies and become a
>>>super power.

>>Better hope Pakistan does not gain them first.

>Hey, wait a minute!

>India, Pakistan, UFOs, high tech space craft....

>Isn't this how that episode of Star Trek titled 'Space Seed'
>and the flick 'Star Trek II: The Wrath Of Khan' started???

>Madman with his cronies try to take over the world in the '90's
>and when routed out they steal a high tech space ship, go into
>hibernation and then 200 years later they're revived by Capt.
>Kirk and they try it again?

>Something fishy is goin' on here :)

I remember a time, just a few years ago, when there was
puzzlement on this List about why there didn't seem to be any
UFO reports out of India.

India seems to be a mixture of high technology, industry,
medieval living conditions, and industrial revolution.
Nonetheless in 50 years it will be India and China driving the
world's economy-if they aren't already.

Their people will be trying to explain away UFOs as their
governments' super-secret aircraft technology. I know it
rankles, but that's the way things are.


Don Ledger








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             Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor? -

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 12:58:58 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 06:46:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor? -



>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 10:27:48 -0300
>Subject: Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor?

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 22:33:32 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor?

<snip>

>Dick,

>I think you are saying that you haven't read The Braxton County
>Monster: The Cover-Up Of The Flatwoods Monster Revealed,
>nor done the research. There is a great deal of evidence in the
>historical record. Surely you are not saying "don't bother me
>with the facts, my mind is made up"??

>I visited Flatwoods and the site, reviewed Frank's work, talked
>to some key witnesses, dug out lots of published info. Looked at
>Blue Book material.

>That is why I wrote the foreward and the epilogue and even
>mentioned you favorably in the former.

>Absence of evidence in your files doesn't mean there is no
>evidence.

>Read the book, then complain.

>You might even read more info on my website or on Frank's:

>http://www.flatwoodsmonster.com


After looking at the artist's interpretations of ol' Flatty, I
can recall seeing those images before. Also somewhere in the
back of my mind a similar image from art history studies.
Something from way back.

What intrigues me off the bat is I know folks from that part of
the country. Got kinfolk there. When I went to the news
clippings section of the site:

http://sites.eoi.com/folder5715/index.cfm?id=79363&fuseaction=browse&pageid=27

I noticed that it had the most realistic reaction that people
would have:

They came, they saw, they hauled ass!

Notice no pretense about how such and such stood valiantly
against the alien menace, nope, just good ol' fashioned human
fear took over.

Next thing, the folks showed up with shotguns. Pretty much the
way folks were back then. Didn't read about any hounds showing
up but I'll buy the book and any papers published on it.

Notice also how the strange overpowering smell was there the
next day? Hallucinations don't leave traces over a duration. If
I know my Virginnies right at that time of year you have 'Indian
Summers' still. Lotsa dew too.

What could that thing have been? I dunno. Coulda been just a
scared critter a long way from home with a can of 'anti-human'
defense spray on him or a gizmo of some sort.

Definitley worth looking into and teaches a lesson that there
are some good stories worth researching. Obviously Freschino did
a lot of homework and did a better service to the public than
the government did.


Best,

Greg








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                      New Mars Probe To Launch In 2005

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 13:30:37 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 06:49:29 -0400
Subject: New Mars Probe To Launch In 2005


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6239184/

By Leonard David
Senior space writer
Updated: 3:20 p.m. ET Oct. 13, 2004

DENVER - The next spacecraft destined for Mars is rapidly coming
together here on Earth - an interplanetary probe that carries
the most powerful instruments ever sent to the Red Planet.

NASA's Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter, or MRO, is being readied for
sendoff next year. The huge spacecraft carries a suite of
instruments, including a camera system able to provide ultra-
close-up images of Mars' surface, and a sounder to probe for
water that might linger beneath the planet's surface.

MRO is a crucial link to a wave of upcoming robotic landers
slated to dot Mars in coming years.

But more so, MRO stamps the passport for human visitation
rights, road-mapping Mars to help resolve where expeditionary
crews can best land, sustain their presence and continue the
quest to unravel the past and present state of affairs on Mars.

Workers here at Lockheed Martin Space Systems have been building
the orbiter for well over a year and have reached the final
assembly stage.

With an unyielding launch window of August 2005, the pace of
integrating spacecraft hardware, checking out software,
installing science instruments and readying the spacecraft for
"shake and bake" launch and space cruise simulations is at full-
speed.

Ship and shoot

Science instruments onboard MRO emphasize the spacecraft's
roster of key jobs at Mars: the High Resolution Imaging Science
Experiment (HiRISE), Context Camera (CTX), Mars Color Imager
(MARCI), Compact Reconnaissance Imaging Spectrometer for Mars
(CRISM), Mars Climate Sounder (MCS) and the Shallow Radar
(SHARAD).

The MRO project is managed for the NASA Science Mission
Directorate in Washington by the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in
Pasadena, Calif. Lockheed Martin Space Systems, Denver, is prime
contractor for the project.

"MRO takes us another step forward in Mars exploration," Kevin
McNeill, Lockheed Martin's program manager for the orbiter, told
Space.com. "It is by far the biggest thing that we will have put
into orbit around Mars."

Not too far away from where MRO is being geared up, so too is
its launch vehicle - an Atlas 5, also built by Lockheed
Martin. Nothing like an "all in the family" Mars mission for the
aerospace firm. This will be the first interplanetary mission
hitched to an Atlas since 1973.

Target date for MRO's shipment from Lockheed Martin to Cape
Canaveral, Florida is early May, with the launch window to shoot
for Mars opening next Aug. 10 and extending through Aug. 30.

No wonder the tempo of work is quickening.

"On any given day there are a lot of different things happening
here on the spacecraft," McNeill said.

Balancing act
Assembly and testing of MRO has not been without problems. Like
many spacecraft projects, it becomes somewhat a balancing act,
depending on what hardware appears on time versus tardy
shipments of, say, science instruments, or glitches in pulling
together flight-ready software, McNeill said.

There is the ongoing saga of "workarounds," juggling schedules,
parts problems and keeping options open, McNeill noted. "One
thing we've not fought as much are issues like mass and power.
You don't want to be sitting there a year out from launch trying
to find 50 kilograms to take out. Fortunately, we haven't had to
do that."

All this is business as usual, McNeill remarked. Contrasted to
other spacecraft building, in some ways things have gone much
smoother for the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter, he said.

One MRO item that made the spacecraft builders breathe a little
harder was how complex the new command and data handling system
for the Mars orbiter turned out to be. Lockheed Martin invested
a considerable amount of company funds toward its development,
McNeill added.

Testing: what it's all about
"Fundamentally, they are one-of-a-kind spacecraft. You make your
plans. You do your best to execute your plans. And then you work
around things. We're in the latter stage right now," explained
Tim Gasparrini, a mechanical engineering and test manager for
MRO within Lockheed Martin's Flight Systems.

Gasparrini said MRO's "open architecture" allows access to
nearly all parts of spacecraft hardware, making it easier to
work in and around the craft. "The assembly you have to do =E2=80=A6
but the testing is what it's really all about."

The philosophy is that "no single failure on the spacecraft can
take out the mission,' Gasparrini told Space.com.

One MRO challenge has been the requirement for rotating the
camera system plus or minus 30 degrees to the side. Then there's
need to have the spacecraft's gigantic solar arrays follow the
sun while the craft's high gain antenna keeps Earth in its
crosshairs - adding up to a unique dance of hardware while MRO
orbits the Red Planet.

Feel of flying
Shortly after launch next year, MRO will deploy both its large
high-gain antenna and set of solar arrays. "We're in that
configuration all the way through cruise," McNeill said. There
are no deployments at the planet, he continued, except for the
Italian Space Agency's shallow radar sounding instrument. It
will probe below the Martian landscape to search for underground
layers of ice, rock and, perhaps, melted water.

After liftoff, the spacecraft will cruise toward Mars, taking
about seven months to arrive at the red planet.

"So we'll be flying in the configuration similar to what we're
in at Mars. You get everything deployed immediately. You don't
have to worry about the long-term storage effects on mechanisms
that need to later deploy. Also it gives you the feel of flying
the vehicle," Gasparrini explained.

In order to be captured into orbit around Mars, the spacecraft
performs an insertion burn using its main engines. That Mars
Orbit Insertion burn takes about 25 minutes, gulping most of the
fuel carried onboard.

Brake time
The capture orbit achieved will be highly elliptical. In order
to round out the elongated orbit, MRO is to use atmospheric
friction in a process called aerobraking.

MRO flies backwards so air flow during aerobraking hits the back
end of the spacecraft, the back of the solar arrays, and the
back of the high gain antenna =E2=80=93 with all elements able to
withstand temperature increases due to aerobraking, Gasparrini
said.

Dipping in and out of the thin martian atmosphere will last for
about six months, eventually placing the spacecraft into an
orbit for science operations.

On orbit at Mars, MRO's data rate link to Earth is astounding:
Three times faster than a high-speed residential telephone line.
Ten to twenty times more data will be relayed from MRO than
previous Mars missions - more data than all prior planetary
missions combined.

"We are like 15 DSLs (digital subscriber lines). So we're
talking about an incredible transmission rate of information
coming down," McNeill pointed out.

The orbiter will also establish a crucial service for future
spacecraft, becoming the first installment of an "interplanetary
Internet." In addition, the mission will also test an
experimental optical navigation camera that will serve as a
high-precision interplanetary lighthouse to guide incoming
spacecraft as they near Mars.

Observational bridge
The cameras onboard will pinpoint Mars terrain in zoom-lens
fashion, as well as produce wide-swath, high-resolution
pictures, and even use a fish-eye lens to track changes in
Martian weather and variations in the planet's atmospheric
ozone.

MRO can image objects on Mars as small as a dinner plate. Given
that ability, unprecedented views of the Martian real estate are
expected, including obstacles that could ruin the day of an
incoming lander or impede the progress of a future rover.

=46rom the standpoint of exploring Mars like never before, MRO is
a must-have spacecraft. It is an observational bridge to help
lay to rest perplexing questions about the Red Planet, such as
whether or not life was once - or is now - alive and well
there.

MRO's primary and relay mission requirement is to operate for
5.4 years. But it has the built-in chutzpah to keep on keeping
on for a decade. Cost of the spacecraft, its booster, mission
operations and scientific work for 10 years is in the $700
million range.

With so much riding on MRO, failure of the spacecraft is
something nobody wants to consider, McNeill concluded. "Failure
can happen =E2=80=A6 but failure really isn't an option when you
consider the rest of the planned exploration of Mars in the next
decade," he said.

c. 2004 Space.com. All rights reserved. More from Space.com.








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                  Re: 'UFO' Spotted Near Fort Wayne - Olmos

From: Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos <ballesterolmos.nul>
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 19:47:28 +0200 (CEST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 06:51:28 -0400
Subject: Re: 'UFO' Spotted Near Fort Wayne - Olmos


>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 11:24:04 -0500
>Subject: Re: 'UFO' Spotted Near Fort Wayne

>I've placed a clearer, undoctored still image of the object
>spotted over Fort Wayne, Indiana last weekend at one of our
>web-sites: <http://pinevalley.homestead.com>

(snip)

Pity that the clip had to be deleted from the site. I have not
been able to see the video and cannot form an opinion from the
published shot, as it can be either a meteor, a contrail or a
reentry. I will appreciate any more accurate diagnostics from
someone who has watched the entire video clip.

By the way, NASA reports the reentry of a rocket booster for
October 10, 2004 in its catalog of space decays:

______________________________________________
Catalog Query For Decay Date Response
2004/10/15 18:34:35 Session time remaining: 01:57:47

Query return total: 1Query Date: 2004/10/15 18:34:37

From: 2004/10/10
Through: 2004/10/10

Decay Date: Descending Order

IntID/Name   CatNo Source period   Incl Apogee Perigee      RCS
------------ ----- ------ ------ ------ ------ ------- --------

2004-039B    28425 PRC      87.4   63.0    147     139  46.2000
CZ-2D R/B                 Launched (2004/09/27) Decayed [2004/10/10]


=A9 2004 National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA). All rights
reserved.
________________________________________

Unfortunately, nothing is recorded about time or location.

Regards,
V-J







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              Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information Project

From: Victor Viggiani <zland.nul>
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 15:32:25 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 06:56:35 -0400
Subject: Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information Project


A Call to Action

Want to engage yourself in the disclosure process?

Want to encourage an elected representative or a journalist to
do something about the need for ETI Disclosure?

Now there is a way.

Reach dozens of journalists, investigative TV and radio
programs, news rooms, Cabinet Ministers and elected
representatives.

For the first time in Canada and quite possibly anywhere else
on-line, the Canadian UFO Information Project:

http://www.ufocanada.net/caninf.html

now provides Direct Access to:

A comprehensive Fax and E-mail contact list of all Canadian
Members of Parliament and all Senate representatives.

Individual contact to the Prime Minister, key Cabinet Ministers
by portfolio, Leader of the Opposition and more&

Contact listings to all media outlets throughout Canada
Newspapers Journalists - Television Radio Magazines. Access to
American electronic media, newspapers and magazines is also
available at:

http://www.newsdirectory.com/

A listing of and contacts for all major media ownership
companies and boards of directors of in Canada.

A compendium of resource material and SUGGESTED CONTENT i.e. e-
mail/faxes for citizens to use or modify when contacting any of
the groups listed above.

Direct Access is now available for anyone to make their views
known to government officials and media about the state of the
ETI disclosure issue.

The time has long since passed for the UFO research community
and those with an interest in anomalous events to be solely
immersed in data collection, conferences focusing on
phenomenology and endless debate about oil fires and hoaxes.

It is time to act. It is time to politicize the essence of what
we do.

No other constituent but the individual has the capacity to
alter the perception of elected officials and journalists to the
essence of the ETI issue.

Individuals must act. Become engaged.

We must recruit the help of journalists to perform their
rightful duty in a free society; publish the truth. We must
encourage and enlist the support of our elected representatives
to speak and demand the truth in the halls of our democratic
institutions.

As long as we, the citizens within a democratic social order
remain silent, the ETI issue will remain politically inert and
the substance of mockery. If the ETI issue means anything it
means we must identify it as the most important and yes
enigmatic, historical, social and geo-political event of our
times.

To do anything less is to denigrate the intense nature the ETI
issue; to consign it to the ridicule and denial used by media
and government.

Go to:

http://www.ufocanada.net/caninf.html

and engage yourself.

Future Plans for The Canadian UFO Information Project:

-Documentation on NORAD Jets Scrambled to Chase Unknown Targets

-RCMP Officer Documents UFO Sighting

-Access to American House of Representatives, Congress and other
elected officials.

If you already have or plan to write an MP, journalist or a
media outlet let us know. Or if you wish to enquire about ways
to communicate your views, contact us at:


The Canadian UFO Information Project
Mississauaga Ontario Canada

E-mail zland.nul










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             Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor? -

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 13:47:34 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 07:18:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor? -


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 20:04:43 +0000
>Subject: Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor?

>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 20:14:07 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor?

>>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:10:40 +0000
>>>Subject: Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor?

>>>>Author follows the trail of the Braxton County Monster
>>>>By Rusty Marks Staff writer

>>>>Frank Feschino Jr. didn't plan on becoming a UFO researcher when
>>>>he first heard about the Braxton County Monster.

>>>One-sentence book review: Utter paranoid nonsense.

>>Simple question Dick. Have you read the book? Have you
>>researched the events of Sept. 12, 1952?

>Simple question, Stan. Have you any evidence of vast aerial
>battles over the Atlantic between UFOs and jet interceptors in
>September 1952? Follow-up question: Are you seriously defending
>this book?

>- Dick

> P.S. The Donald E. Keyhoe Archives (and the official records
and documents compiled for 1952) contain extensive information
about 1952 sightings and related news reporting. Nothing about
the wild fantasies that you appear to be accepting.


For the entire month of September 1952, and FWIW, I have only
one sighting listed in the Atlantic:

#2926: 1952/09/26 23:20h d=55m 35:00W 41:00N OCN ATL AZR
400mi NW/AZORES:BBK#2126:UID:C124 CREW PACED/2 GRN NLTS:
NO SHIP or PLANE:/r185
/r136 GROSS,L:UFOs a HISTORY-1952/ Book # 5  Pg 55.

For the precise date 12SEPT52, I have 2 listings:

Flatwoods and some small place in Pennsylvania.

The heaviest activity was in the previous summer of course.


Best

- Larry Hatch








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   Oct > Oct 16

             Re: What's New With The Bob Lazar Story? - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul>
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 13:56:05 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 07:20:01 -0400
Subject: Re: What's New With The Bob Lazar Story? - Tonnies


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To:  ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 00:44:25 -0700
>Subject: Re: What's New With The Bob Lazar Story?

<snip>

>I Googled up "Bob Lazar" and the first link said:
>"Bob Lazar and the Physics of Element 115"

>I sure don't want to miss out on the physics of
>Element 115, so I clicked on the link:

>http://www.boblazar.com/

>where I read:

>"This Bob Lazar website is returning to the Internet
>on April
>30th, 2004 with New and Updated Material."

>There is an email link on the otherwise dark page.

>Maybe he is busy with more profitable new elements
>and forgot all about his website.

That's an improvement on the previous message: "This site has
been hacked to death" - accompanied by a nice CGI image of a
crashed "sport model" saucer.


Mac Tonnies (macbot*yahoo.com)

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com
Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com
New book: "After the Martian Apocalypse"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/074348293X








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             Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor? -

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 21:11:09 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 07:21:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor? -


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 10:27:48 -0300
>Subject: Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor?

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 22:33:32 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor?

>>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 20:14:07 -0300
>>>Subject: Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor?

>>>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>>Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:10:40 +0000
>>>>Subject: Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor?

>>>>One-sentence book review: Utter paranoid nonsense.

>>>Simple question Dick. Have you read the book? Have you
>>>researched the events of Sept. 12, 1952?

>>So far I have been given no reason to pay any attention
>>whatsoever to alleged events for which there is not the

>I think you are saying that you haven't read The Braxton County
>Monster: The Cover-Up Of The Flatwoods Monster Revealed,
>nor done the research. There is a great deal of evidence in the
>historical record. Surely you are not saying "don't bother me
>with the facts, my mind is made up"??

>I visited Flatwoods and the site, reviewed Frank's work, talked
>to some key witnesses, dug out lots of published info. Looked at
>Blue Book material.

>That is why I wrote the foreward and the epilogue and even
>mentioned you favorably in the former.

>Absence of evidence in your files doesn't mean there is no
>evidence.

>Read the book, then complain.

Send me a copy and I'll read it. And as you well know, I have
done lots of research. None of it supports the wild tale claimed
in the write-ups of this book as presented on this List. (See
also below.)

>You might even read more info on my website or on Frank's:

>http://www.flatwoodsmonster.com

When I look at this site, all I find is someone promoting a book
in rather sensational prose and trying to relieve my pocketbook
of its few remaining centavos. The blurb it contains describes
something akin to the War of the Worlds `panic' happening all
along the East coast in September 1862. What baloney! How could
that possibly escape all press coverage and be totally absent
from the historical record?


 - Dick








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   Oct > Oct 16

                         Men In Black Meetings Fake

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 07:26:23 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 07:26:23 -0400
Subject: Men In Black Meetings Fake




Source: The Triangle - The Student Newspaper At Drexel University

http://www.thetriangle.org/news/2004/10/15/SciTech/men-In.Black.Meetings.Fake-75
4711.shtml


10-15-04

Men In Black Meetings Fake
The Iron Skeptic

By Aaron Sakulich

The paranormal, specifically the UFO phenomenon, is a subject
that scientists must acknowledge as being of particular interest
to their fields. This is mainly a question of defense: A lot of
UFO reports are hoaxes, misidentifications, or some other easily
explainable problem. The public, however, has a considerable
interest in the subject, and if scientists do not debunk and
demystify the bumper crop of hogwash related to this subject,
they may find the line between science and fantasy irreparably
blurred. Even these seemingly useless hoaxes, tricks, and mass
hysterias can yield valuable data for scientists in the fields
of psychology and sociology.

Some things, such as "lights in the sky" may also have a value
to physicists, meteorologists, and other 'hard' scientists. One
thing associated with UFOs that will never, ever, give up any
hard scientific data is the phenomena of the so-called "Men In
Black."

Basically, it goes like this: If you see a UFO and talk about
it, eventually some men wearing dark suits, perhaps acting
oddly, will call on you and threaten that you'd better stay
quiet. Some believe these men to be government agents, some to
be harmless cranks, and some to be alien visitors or travelers
from other dimensions.

Other than incredible stories, there is no hard evidence to show
that these men are anything other than regular flesh-and-blood
human beings. I'm sure that disappoints all the computer
scientists itching to get their hands on a remote-controlled
robot built from alien technology, but it should delight
scientists working on the mind: Stories of Men In Black can
surely point you to some interesting case studies in mental
disorders.

Men In Black encounters fall into basically four categories. The
first doesn't involve actual contact. Threatening phone calls,
letters, faxes, or e-mails that warn a person not to go public
about their UFO encounter. There is no proof that these are
anything other than misguided pranks or regular people that want
to suppress a story for some reason.

The second category involves Men In Black meeting a person face-
to face, but acting like regular people. In these cases, there
is nothing to suggest anything more fantastic than some person,
fashionably attired, is trying to keep a witness from going
public. In some cases, they con the witnesses into giving up
rolls of film, physical evidence, or other "proof." Some stories
of these encounters are surely to prop up hoaxes ("Of course I
don't have proof, I gave it to that man I can't prove exists!"),
or are actually benign encounters, be it from actual UFO
investigators, government agents, or curious parties. Sometimes
the Men In Black threaten the witness if they don't stay quiet,
but these threats are never carried out. Other intimidation
tactics, such as a large, dark car carrying Men In Black driving
slowly past a witness's house late at night, are occasionally
used.

The third category is when the Men In Black show up and they act
really weird. In one case, a Man In Black claimed to have a
stomachache and, not quite understanding a woman's advice for a
home remedy, took a bowl of jelly and drank it like soup. In
many cases, the Men In Black move stiffly and talk with stilted,
robotic voices. In some cases they're missing unimportant body
parts, such as eyebrows, fingernails, or lips.

Sometimes they're either too tan or too pale, or have oddly
colored hair or eyes. In many cases they speak with odd accents,
use archaic terminology or the wrong words, or are dressed in
fashions that are decades out of date. I admit that, if these
stories are true, the men in them are acting pretty weird, but
it's not anything that a person with a little bit of acting, a
little bit of sleight-of-hand, and a little bit of makeup can't
do with ease. If you suck down a bowl of jelly like soup,
chances are you're just a nut, not a spaceman.

The fourth category involves Men In Black that don't just act
weird, but act impossibly weird. In one case (so the story goes,
anyway) a car carrying two Men In Black that had been harassing
a man simply vanished into thin air when police approached it.
In one, objects passed through the Men in Black as though they
were holograms. In some cases, they have psychic abilities, move
instantly from one place to the next, or put people into a
hypnotic trance using only their eyes.

In the first and second categories, it's safe to say that the
only possibilities are that the witness is either making the
whole thing up or that the Men In Black that visited them are
just regular people. Sure, they may try to steal from the
witnesses, they may threaten them, and they may act like jerks,
but that's not something unheard of in the course of human
history.

In the third and forth categories, it becomes more and more
likely that there are some serious mental disorders at play.
Either the witnesses are flat-out making the stories up, are
exaggerating details that seem sinister only if you assume the
Men In Black are not human beings, or the witnesses are on the
receiving end of an elaborate prank being perpetrated by some
very disturbed people.

In fact, a portion of those that study UFOs, "Ufologists" if you
will, claim that these Men In Black act weird on purpose. They
pretend to be robots, pretend to be unfamiliar with basic things
all people recognize, or pretend to be more than human for a
specific reason. Usually that reason is because they are
government agents trying to discredit the witness; they know
that if the witness gives an accurate account of their weird
behavior, people will think them crazy, thus protecting the
government's top-secret something-or-other that the witness saw
hovering in the skies.

With this in mind, I ask you which is more likely: A handful of
mentally disturbed individuals fabricate incredible encounters
with the agents of visitors from another planet, or the
government is engaged in a wide-scale conspiracy to shut up
people by sending secret agents pretending to be robots to talk
to them?

In one case, a man named Craig Weitzel saw a grounded "UFO" with
a "spaceman" in a "silver suit" nearby, so he took a picture of
it. Then, a very angry Man In Black came to his home and took
his camera and film. Weitzel reported this to many UFO groups,
who were very interested. The catch is that Weitzel was in the
Air Force, and all this occurred at Kirkland Air Force Base's
Manzano weapons site. I'm sure that, in this one instance, the
Man In Black was a regular, human government agent, and I
wouldn't have blamed him for roughing that dumbass Weitzel up a
little.

The fact that the Men In Black act weird, but inconsistently
weird, seems to me to be a major clue. The Men In Black that
seem to be robots rarely do it in the same way: Sometimes they
talk in stilted monotone; sometimes they walk without moving
their knees or elbows; in one case the Man In Black's voice
slowed down like a cassette tape and he claimed his "energy was
getting low"; In another case, a Man In Black's pants rode up
just enough to make a wire going from his sock into his skin
below the knee visible.

These are all easily done (the first ones by acting, the last
with a wire and a bit of superglue.) If they were actually all
robots, it makes sense that they would all show the same
irregularities.

It doesn't make sense that if aliens were able to build a
sophisticated moving robot in a human form, they'd leave off
such simple trivia as fingernails, lips, and eyebrows. But it's
very easy for a person with a little bit of free time and some
makeup to make it look like they don't have them. Men In Black
are as human as you or I, when they exist at all. There is
absolutely no doubt in my mind that some UFO sightings,
specifically ones that spot "lights in the sky" and not "big
metal spacecraft" have scientific merit and ought to be
investigated.

The phenomena of Men In Black has two scientific values:
Debunking cases will counteract the blending of science and new-
age hocus pocus, and investigating claims will eventually expose
derangements and psychoses sufficient to write a thousand
textbooks on abnormal psychology.

-----

Aaron Sakulich is a senior majoring in material science and
engineering.







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   Oct > Oct 16

                         Re: Alienware UK - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul>
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 14:20:17 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 07:27:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Alienware UK - Tonnies


>From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 12:39:31 +0100
>Subject: Alienware UK

>I thought this set of new range of PCs were quite smart!

>http://www.alienware.co.uk/

>I have nothing to do with this company, but I wish I
>had one of their PCs!

I read a neat article in "Wired" about how the Air Force is
interested in these machines. There was an awkward moment as
the guy from Alienware and the AF brass looked over the "alien
head" logo ;-)


Mac Tonnies (macbot*yahoo.com)

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com
Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com
New book: "After the Martian Apocalypse"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/074348293X








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   Oct > Oct 16

                  Re: Men In Black Meetings Fake - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 07:00:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 08:04:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Men In Black Meetings Fake - Lehmberg


From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers ->
Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 6:26 AM
Subject: UFO UpDate: Men In Black Meetings Fake

>Source: The Triangle - The Student Newspaper At Drexel University

>http://www.thetriangle.org/news/2004/10/15/SciTech/men-In.Black.Meetings.Fa=
ke-754711.shtml

>10-15-04

>Men In Black Meetings Fake
>The Iron Skeptic

>By Aaron Sakulich

If iron suggests the rigid, inflexible, dense, and insentient,
then yes: the "iron skeptic" is by all means appropriate.

alienview.nul  -:=A6:-
   www.AlienView.net









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   Oct > Oct 16

                          Ray Fowler's New Website

From: Raymond Fowler <eveleth.nul>
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 23:04:17 -0230
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 08:06:40 -0400
Subject: Ray Fowler's New Website


Hi,


Just a note to let you know that i now have my own website.


http://raymondfowler.cjb.net/


Best,

Ray Fowler








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   Oct > Oct 16

               Re: Holes Shot Through Mutant Monster & Story -

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 05:03:33 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 08:12:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Holes Shot Through Mutant Monster & Story -


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 11:25:35 EDT
>Subject: Holes Shot Through Mutant Monster & Story

>Soruce: The Daily Sentinel -  Nacogdoches, Texas

>http://www.dailysentinel.com/news/newsfd/auto/feed/news/2004/10/15/1097814973.1
8121.9557.4630.html

>10-15-04

>Expert Says Mystery Beast Is A 'mangey Coyote'

>By Johnny Johnson
>The Daily Sentinel

>Nacogdoches, Texas - As it turns out, volatile chemicals from a
>top secret experiment aboard the space shuttle Columbia were
>probably not responsible for producing some kind of mutant
>killer deer-dog that is running around deep East Texas sucking
>the blood from goats.

- - -

Well [burp!]  I'm sure glad to hear that.

- Larry













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               Re: Holes Shot Through Mutant Monster & Story -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 07:16:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 08:20:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Holes Shot Through Mutant Monster & Story -


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To:  ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 05:03:33 -0700
>Subject: Re: Holes Shot Through Mutant Monster & Story

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 11:25:35 EDT
>>Subject: Holes Shot Through Mutant Monster & Story

>>Soruce: The Daily Sentinel -  Nacogdoches, Texas

>>http://www.dailysentinel.com/news/newsfd/auto/feed/news/2004/10/15/1097814=
973.18121.9557.4630.html

>>10-15-04

>>Expert Says Mystery Beast Is A 'mangey Coyote'

>>By Johnny Johnson
>>The Daily Sentinel

>>Nacogdoches, Texas - As it turns out, volatile chemicals from a
>>top secret experiment aboard the space shuttle Columbia were
>>probably not responsible for producing some kind of mutant
>>killer deer-dog that is running around deep East Texas sucking
>>the blood from goats.

>Well [burp!]  I'm sure glad to hear that.

>- Larry


...Little early to be huffin' suds, ain't it, Mr. Hatch?

alienview.nul  -:=A6:-
   www.AlienView.net







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               Re: Holes Shot Through Mutant Monster & Story -

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 05:43:14 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 15:43:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Holes Shot Through Mutant Monster & Story -


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 07:16:40 -0500
>Subject: Re: Holes Shot Through Mutant Monster & Story

>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 05:03:33 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Holes Shot Through Mutant Monster & Story

>>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 11:25:35 EDT
>>>Subject: Holes Shot Through Mutant Monster & Story

>>>http://www.dailysentinel.com/news/newsfd/auto/feed/news/2004/10/15/109781=
4973.18121.9557.4630.html

>>>Expert Says Mystery Beast Is A 'mangey Coyote'

>>>By Johnny Johnson, The Daily Sentinel

>>>Nacogdoches, Texas - As it turns out, volatile chemicals from a
>>>top secret experiment aboard the space shuttle Columbia were
>>>probably not responsible for producing some kind of mutant
>>>killer deer-dog that is running around deep East Texas sucking
>>>the blood from goats.

>>Well [burp!] I'm sure glad to hear that.

>>- Larry

>...Little early to be huffin' suds, ain't it, Mr. Hatch?

> alienview.nul -:=A6:-
> www.AlienView.net

Hello Alfred:

Actually, its a bit late. I work a swing shift these days, and
the bars are closing when I leave the electronics workplace.

In an odd sort of way, its still 'Friday night' here. That
illusion is shattered when the leaf blowers ruin the peace and
quiet. The Sun coming up doesn't help the ambiance either.

As a child, I liked knowing that I could stay up 3 hours later
than the poor kids back East.


- LH







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   Oct > Oct 16

                    Re: Men In Black Meetings Fake - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 09:53:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 15:47:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Men In Black Meetings Fake - King


>Source: The Triangle - The Student Newspaper At Drexel University

>http://www.thetriangle.org/news/2004/10/15/SciTech/men-In.Black.Me
>etings.Fake-754711.shtml


>10-15-04

>Men In Black Meetings Fake
>The Iron Skeptic

>By Aaron Sakulich

<snip>

>...there is no hard evidence to show that these men are anything
>other than regular flesh-and-blood human beings.

<snip>

>Stories of Men In Black can surely point you to some interesting
>case studies in mental disorders.

<snip>

>...There is no proof that these are anything other than misguided
>pranks or regular people that want to suppress a story for some
>reason.

<snip>

>In these cases, there is nothing to suggest anything more fantastic
>than some person, fashionably attired, is trying to keep a witness
>from going public.

<snip>

>Some stories of these encounters are surely to prop up hoaxes
>("Of course I don't have proof, I gave it to that man I can't prove
>exists!"), or are actually benign encounters, be it from actual UFO
>investigators, government agents, or curious parties.

<snip>

>If you suck down a bowl of jelly like soup, chances are you're just
>a nut, not a spaceman.

<snip>

>In the first and second categories, it's safe to say that the
>only possibilities are that the witness is either making the
>whole thing up or that the Men In Black that visited them are
>just regular people.

<snip>

>In the third and forth categories, it becomes more and more
>likely that there are some serious mental disorders at play.

<snip>

>With this in mind, I ask you which is more likely: A handful of
>mentally disturbed individuals fabricate incredible encounters
>with the agents of visitors from another planet, or the
>government is engaged in a wide-scale conspiracy to shut up
>people by sending secret agents pretending to be robots to talk
>to them?

<snip>

>I'm sure that, in this one instance, the Man In Black was a
>regular, human government agent, and I wouldn't have blamed him
>for roughing that dumbass Weitzel up a little.

<snip>

>It doesn't make sense that if aliens were able to build a
>sophisticated moving robot in a human form, they'd leave off
>such simple trivia as fingernails, lips, and eyebrows.

<snip>

>Men In Black are as human as you or I, when they exist at all.

<snip>

>The phenomena of Men In Black has two scientific values:
>Debunking cases will counteract the blending of science and new-
>age hocus pocus, and investigating claims will eventually expose
>derangements and psychoses sufficient to write a thousand
>textbooks on abnormal psychology.

<snip>

List,

Man, this guy Sakulich is a major buzz-kill.

If you take out all the qualifying statements, assumptions,
statements of fact without support, 'likely's, 'surely's, etc.,
one is left with a guy saying, "Don't believe that crap, there's
no proof! Believe _my_ crap... there's no proof, but it allows
me to type Iron Skeptic with a straight face, and get
published."

Stick to your 3 dimensional Materials, Aaron. Your grasp of the
theoretical, and how to argue it, could use some work.

The article title is a great example. How even a college
newspaper can justify such a headline in light of the complete
lack of evidence for it in the article, makes me question the
journalistic integrity of such an institution.

Where's my bong...

Is he trying to convince us, or himself? Anal probe victim?


Regards,

Kyle








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                           Re: Alienware UK - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 10:13:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 15:48:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Alienware UK - King


>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 14:20:17 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Re: Alienware UK

>>From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 12:39:31 +0100
>>Subject: Alienware UK

>>I thought this set of new range of PCs were quite smart!

>>http://www.alienware.co.uk/

>>I have nothing to do with this company, but I wish I
>>had one of their PCs!

>I read a neat article in "Wired" about how the Air Force is
>interested in these machines. There was an awkward moment as
>the guy from Alienware and the AF brass looked over the "alien
>head" logo ;-)


Hi Mac,

Alienware and Voodoo are two of the premiere custom-PC builders
out there.

Interesting that PC performance is now compared to alien tech,
or magic. No one seems too surprised, and there's even a rather
odd legitimacy to it, or these shops wouldn't be so successful.

As we discuss aliens and their tech, it is funny that these
companies tap into the mindset that with computers, UFOs and
magic can be used as selling points. Tongue in cheek to be sure,
but interesting. Even the Air Force isn't put off by the
allusion.

If you get a chance to see one of these machines in person,
especially the interior wiring job on a Voodoo machine, you will
understand one reason why these PCs cost a small fortune. Simply
incredible attention to detail, and as different from your
typical beige box as any alien gizmo or shaman's totem could be.

Alienware's top box is called the "Area-51" by the way.
*chuckle*

Reminds me of that American Computer Co.'s alleged back-
engineered chip from a few years ago...the transfer capacitor or
trans-cap. Not as advertised as it turned out, though.

These new computers however are definitely science-fact!

And just visualize a cube-farm at the Pentagon lined up with
these smashing cases. I think morale might even get a little
boost. :)


Regards,

Kyle








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                Scientists Use Square Bacteria For ET Studies

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 12:10:01 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 15:51:28 -0400
Subject: Scientists Use Square Bacteria For ET Studies


It's Hip To Be 'Square'
Scientists Use Square Bacteria For ET Studies


http://english.pravda.ru/science/19/94/379/14440_bacteria.html

Scientists Make Use Of Square Microbes

10-14-04

A team of Australian scientists headed by Mike Dyall-Smith
(Melbourne) has succeeded in cultivating unique bacteria with
rectangular and square shaped cells.

Majority of bacteria cells are spherical or rod-like in
appearance. However, microbes that have cells with right angles
aren't exactly bacteria. They belong to a very old, recently
found form of life. They are the so-called "Walsby's square
bacteria", named after Anthony Walsby, a British microbiologist
who had first discovered them in a hypersaline pond near the Red
Sea in 1980.

These creatures belong to the most general type of cells found
in saline lakes. There, they connect with one another thus
forming a two-dimensional mosaic. This effect in turn is
responsible for the lake"s distinctive pink color.

Dyall-Smith has told that the microbes were very hard to
cultivate, since they seem to "dislike" agarous gel which is
usually used for bacterial cells' cultivation in labs. Instead,
the culture needs to be hypersaline: at least 18% salt, which is
roughly the same concentration as in soy sauce.

According to him, successful isolation and cultivation of square
bacteria is a very important step in understanding the role they
play in saline lakes' ecosystems.

It was also discovered that the microbe is also extremely
tolerant to magnesium chloride. This makes it the perfect
organism for studying what life might be like in
extraterrestrial corners of the solar system, such as the
magnesium-rich brines on Jupiter's moons Europa and Ganymede.







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                        UK UFO Sighting July 27 2004

From: Joachim Koch <lists.nul>
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 18:43:20 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 15:53:32 -0400
Subject: UK UFO Sighting July 27 2004


Hello List,

We would like to announce a remarkable sighting of unknown
flying objects on July 27, 2004, in the Vale of Pewsey,
Wiltshire, South England.

We provide detailed background information and 19 photographs at
our updated website.

http://www.kochkyborg.de

Please click on 'Project Toliman' in the nav section.

Greetings from Berlin, Germany,

Joachim Koch

----------------------------
Breaking news about
Project Toliman of July, 26, 2004 at:
http://www.kochkyborg.de
----------------------------








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                             GSA Bluebook Films

From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 12:13:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 15:55:05 -0400
Subject: GSA Bluebook Films


In December 1977 we got a letter from the General Services
Administration with a list of Blue Book, movies, audio tapes,
and stills of UFOs for sale to the public.

I have put the letter and listings online at one of our web-
sites:

http://www.interamerica.us

The list might prove interesting to those seeking concrete
information of what Blue Book had, or at least some of what they
had in their files.

We also have other government materials and correspondences from
various UFO icons, such as Donald Keyhole, Eileen Buckle, Lucius
Farish, and others.

Let me know if any might be of interest to you.


Rich Reynolds
Fort Wayne MediaWatch








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                 Re: New Mars Probe To Launch In 2005 - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 12:52:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 15:57:31 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mars Probe To Launch In 2005 - King


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 13:30:37 EDT
>Subject: New Mars Probe To Launch In 2005

<snip>

>MRO's primary and relay mission requirement is to operate for
>5.4 years. But it has the built-in chutzpah to keep on keeping
>on for a decade. Cost of the spacecraft, its booster, mission
>operations and scientific work for 10 years is in the $700
>million range.

>With so much riding on MRO, failure of the spacecraft is
>something nobody wants to consider, McNeill concluded. "Failure
>can happen =E2=80=A6 but failure really isn't an option when you
>consider the rest of the planned exploration of Mars in the next
>decade," he said.

>c. 2004 Space.com. All rights reserved. More from Space.com.

Hi Greg,

Failure isn't really an option... .. This isn't exactly as
reassuring as Gene Krantz' famous rejoinder to my eye...  almost
as if an out has been left.

I certainly hope that they got this one built right. A $700
million high-profile failure might just get us out of the Mars-
 mission business for good. Hmmm... hope that isn't the _real_
goal.

Our recent history of manned... and unmanned... spaceflight has
obviously been less than _stellar_. Since we used to be in a
space race and never lost an astronaut to the vacuum, perhaps
the lack of competition has led to complacency. One hopes that
we do not fall victim to our own undue sense of infallibility,
or that we haven't already.

Shuttles, Hubble, Beagle 2, Stardust... among many others...
point to failure as being at least an option, and at times
seemingly an objective.

If MRO fails however, we may see a different Mars _agenda_. Too
expensive, too little results... too many other priorities, etc,
etc. Our current administration's embarrassing intimacy with
faith and Pseudo-Christian ideals might lead to such arguments
as "searching for life on other planets is folly anyway" ... as
with "global warming is not real but a scare-tactic against our
precious environmentally friendly _wink_ SUVs" or "tinkering
with politics in the middle east might hasten our _biblical
destiny_". Hmmm.

Stardust for example reveals a lack of sweating the details that
leaves me somewhat aghast. Sensors installed correctly but
designed upside down? The guy with the screwdriver got it right,
while the brainiac with the slide-rule was smoking crack...
wacky! Who lost his job over that little faux pas? At the least,
the data retrieved from its collector disks now can be
questioned, if not rendered unusable due to contamination.

Odd that the best success to date of up-close Martian
observation, the Rovers, are notably designed NOT to look for
life signs. And like expensive Energizer bunnies, they just keep
going and going...  spewing forth photo after photo that raise
questions which they are ... by design... ill-equipped or unable
to answer. My brain itches mightily on that one. How simple it
would have been to place a couple of life-detecting tools. They
piled on the cameras, to be sure, and yet we still don't even
know what color the sky is there. In retrospect, what could have
been gained by now if these hardy golf-carts had been equipped
to detect and analyze signs of life? A wasted opportunity times
two in my opinion. Why send anything to Mars that lands there
and tools around, but cannot tell us if it's muddy, or if the
sky is blue, or if there are germs, or direct methane and
ammonia sources, etc? No, we garner more data on these questions
from probes flying overhead. Sheesh.

At any rate, cheers to MRO, and Godspeed. May ye fare better
than thy more infamous brethren.

'Failure is really not an option'... ? Sheesh.

Best Regards,

Kyle








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                           Fort Wayne UFO Sighting

From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 13:11:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 16:00:39 -0400
Subject: Fort Wayne UFO Sighting


We've been able to put the WANE-TV newscast segment about the
alleged UFO sighting/video online - as a streaming video,
playable in Windows Media Player and other video viewers.

Heres's the URL:

http://www.reasonablehosting.com/rrrgroup/ufo.html

Or go to:

http://www.widlesociety.org for a link to the video.


Rich Reynolds
Fort Wayne MediaWatch









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               Re: Holes Shot Through Mutant Monster & Story -

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 15:53:05 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 16:02:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Holes Shot Through Mutant Monster & Story -


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 05:43:14 -0700
>Subject: Re: Holes Shot Through Mutant Monster & Story

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 07:16:40 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Holes Shot Through Mutant Monster & Story


>>>Well [burp!] I'm sure glad to hear that.


>>...Little early to be huffin' suds, ain't it, Mr. Hatch?

>> alienview.nul -:=A6:-
>> www.AlienView.net

>Hello Alfred:

>Actually, its a bit late. I work a swing shift these days, and
>the bars are closing when I leave the electronics workplace.

>In an odd sort of way, its still 'Friday night' here. That
>illusion is shattered when the leaf blowers ruin the peace and
>quiet. The Sun coming up doesn't help the ambiance either.

>As a child, I liked knowing that I could stay up 3 hours later
>than the poor kids back East.

Wait a dang-tootin' minute!

This story was about coyotes and weird experiments, not?

Sounds like another case of 'Wyle E. Coyoteitis'. ACME is the
cause of all this. Foolin' all them overzealous coyotes into
buying and using their products thinking they can catch road
runners, wascally wabbits and other normally peaceful
herbivores.

Betcha' that next thing ACME will try to sell them is a cure-all
for mange!


Best,

Greg








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               Re: Holes Shot Through Mutant Monster & Story -

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 15:29:28 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 11:18:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Holes Shot Through Mutant Monster & Story -


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 05:43:14 -0700
>Subject: Re: Holes Shot Through Mutant Monster & Story

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 07:16:40 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Holes Shot Through Mutant Monster & Story

<snip>

>>...Little early to be huffin' suds, ain't it, Mr. Hatch?

>Actually, its a bit late. I work a swing shift these days, and
>the bars are closing when I leave the electronics workplace.

>In an odd sort of way, its still 'Friday night' here. That
>illusion is shattered when the leaf blowers ruin the peace and
>quiet. The Sun coming up doesn't help the ambiance either.

>As a child, I liked knowing that I could stay up 3 hours later
>than the poor kids back East.


Hi Larry and Alfred,

A fine example of relativity. It's always beer-thirty...
somewhere. :)

Kyle








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   Oct > Oct 17

                        Re: GSA Bluebook Films - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 21:56:34 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 11:20:07 -0400
Subject: Re: GSA Bluebook Films - Hall


>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 12:13:24 -0500
>Subject: GSA Bluebook Films

>In December 1977 we got a letter from the General Services
>Administration with a list of Blue Book, movies, audio tapes,
>and stills of UFOs for sale to the public.

>I have put the letter and listings online at one of our web-
>sites:

>http://www.interamerica.us

>The list might prove interesting to those seeking concrete
>information of what Blue Book had, or at least some of what they
>had in their files.

>We also have other government materials and correspondences from
>various UFO icons, such as Donald Keyhole, Eileen Buckle, Lucius
>Farish, and others.

>Let me know if any might be of interest to you.


Rich,

The GSA/National Archives letter is helpful. However, it
reflects only a portion of the Project Blue Book Files that they
have on microfilm.

Also, please get Major Keyhoe's name correct. See my web site:
www.hallrichard.com

Richard Hall








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   Oct > Oct 17

                             NIDS 'Deactivates'

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul>
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 02:29:34 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 11:28:45 -0400
Subject: NIDS 'Deactivates'


Found on the NIDS web site

http://www.nidsci.org/

recently:

-----

"We at the National Institute for Discovery Science have come to
a time in which a decision must be made as to the direction of
the Institute. We have labored long and hard, coming to the
conclusion to place NIDS in an inactive status.

The reasons for this decision are as follows:

We have not had the need to do any major investigative work for
well over two and-a-half years.

In view of that fact we decided to reduce our staff.
Our administrator, Colm Kelleher, has taken a position outside
of Nevada to do cancer research. Colm's ambition has always been
to do cancer research and was employed in this field prior to
his employment with NIDS. We are sorry to see him leave.

It is unfortunate that there isn't more activity, as there was
in the past, that warrants investigation. However, we will still
retain our Secretary/Receptionist who will remain at NIDS to
answer your calls. Her name is Mary Allman and can be reached at
(702) 798-1700. She will be talking daily to Mr. Bigelow's
assistants Janice and Donna.

Should substantial activity occur with a need for investigation
then NIDS will be reactivated with new personnel."

-----

Apparently the famous/infamous skinwalker ranch has produced no
tangible information in at least the last 2.5 years either...
which kind of goes along with a story I heard awhile back that
the activity at the ranch pretty well ended in the 1999 - 2000
time frame and literally dropped down to flat line with very
very occasional happenings.


Cheers,

Robert







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                   PRG/X-Conference Press Release 10-13-04

From: Stephen G. Bassett <ParadigmRG.nul>
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 02:41:37 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 11:30:40 -0400
Subject: PRG/X-Conference Press Release 10-13-04


PRG
Paradigm Research Group

Press Release - October 13, 2004
The X-Conference

Washington, DC - Paradigm Research Group announced today the 2nd
Annual Exopolitics Expo - the X-Conference - is scheduled for
April 22-24, 2005 at the Hilton Washington, DC
North/Gaithersburg. See: www.x-conference.com.

The 1st X-Conference, held April 16-18, 2004, brought together
in the Washington area the most powerful group of speakers ever
assembled to focus on the governmental, political and media
aspects of 50+ years of extraterrestrial related phenomena and
state sponsored deception, disinformation and denial. The 2004
event was very well received by 650 attendees. X-Conference 2005
will expand on this success with an equally powerful assemblage
of speakers, who collectively hold enough knowledge of
government involvement with extraterrestrial-related phenomena
and the imposed truth embargo to end the cover-up tomorrow. All
it would take is for political leaders and journalists to pay
attention.

Conference producer, Stephen Bassett, stated, "Once again the
political media as well as congressional members and staff will
have the opportunity to obtain in an extended weekend a basic
understanding of how and why the United States government
sequestered from the American people the full truth of an
extraterrestrial presence about the planet since at least the
mid-1940's." He added, "The X-Conference is not just an event,
it is an affirmation of truth to power. It is a mechanism of
disclosure -the process, underway in earnest since the end of the
Cold War, leading to formal acknowledgment by the United States
government of extraterrestrial beings engaging the planet."

Over the next two months speakers will be selected around a
number of conference themes and the schedule will be posted
to the conference website. The 2004 X-Conference included
25 speakers from 5 countries with 9 PhD/MDs.

The schedule, which is subject to change, now includes:

Fri/Sat/Sun: 16 extended lectures, 3 panel/Q&As, 10 lecture/Q&As
Friday/Saturday: documentary film showings
Friday Evening: Speakers' Cocktail Party
Saturday: Special Presentation - Stephen Bassett
Saturday Evening: Banquet, Keynote Address, PRG Awards
Sunday Evening: X-PPAC Fund Raiser Cocktail Party

During the Saturday evening banquet, PRG Awards for
"Journalistic Courage," "Political Courage," and "Lifetime
Achievement," among others will be presented.

The Hilton Washington DC North/Gaithersburg is a 3 Star, 3
Diamond hotel with unlimited free parking, metro access,
conference facilities for 1500, banquet facilities for 400+ and
is equidistant from all three major airports (Reagan, Dulles,
BWI).

Paradigm Research Group was founded in 1996 to support the work
of research/activist organizations addressing the science and
politics of extraterrestrial-related phenomena.

[Note: PRG Executive Director, Stephen Bassett, will be speaking
at the National UFO Conference (www.nufoc.org) October 29-31,
2004 and the UFO Crash Retrieval Conference
(www.majesticdocuments.com) November 12-14, 2004.]

Contact: Stephen Bassett
         202-215-8344 (new number)
________________________________________________________

Paradigm Research Group
E-mail: ParadigmRG.nul
URL: www.paradigmclock.com
Phone: 202-215-8344
4938 Hampden Lane, #161
Bethesda, MD 20814
_________________________________________________________

2nd Annual Exopolitics Expo - The X-Conference
Hilton Washington DC North/Gaithersburg
www.x-conference.com
Tapes/DVDs available at: www.lostartsmedia.com








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                HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings 10-17-04

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO Research <hbccufo.nul>
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 01:41:24 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 12:11:42 -0400
Subject: HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings 10-17-04


HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings

Release Date: October 17, 2004


Kalum River Bridge, Terrace British Columbia Triangle Of Red Lights

Date: July ? / 83
Time: Approx: 11:00 p.m.

Location of Sighting: Approx; a mile west past
Kalum River Bridge Terrace, B.C. area.
Number of witnesses: 1
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Three red lights in a triangle shape.

Full Description of event/sighting: Me and five friends liked to
go fishing. we'd light a fire and enjoy an evening at the
river...I looked up into the sky across the Skeena River
(southwesterly direction) and there was three red lights in a
triangle. At first I thought it was a plane..But it did a zig
zag flight pattern...I was just about to point it out to my
friends. When whoosh it was just gone. I got to say " Did you
see that ?"

As far as I know I was the only one that seen whatever it was.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

-----------------------

Buffalo, New York Rotating Lights - UFO

Date: 1994

Hi Brian,

Me again...I thought I would go right to my most enjoyable
sighting, the one that made me find your site in the first
place, and then I'll write you later about the rest. Which I
found out how my latest sighting was considered a Close
Encounter of the First Kind. I have had three of those, two of
which I seen just this past summer.

Now, the first time I noticed my rotating lights was in 1994.
There is actually three of them, the brightest one, I call the
Mamma. Each one is located very far apart, in a triangular
pattern. These again, at that time, would move. My boyfriend,
now my husband, was able to witness them too. They would move
about a mile to one side, hang out, and then go back to their
original position. This would go on all night, and they would
never change position, the same as a star would as the world
turns. They are always in the same place every time I want to go
look at them.

I moved from that area, but I was able to easily find them. They
don't really move anymore, just brilliant rotating action of
beautiful colors. They do not twinkle, they most defiantly
rotate their colors. First it's like, (I don't remember the
order of the colors, but I'll find out tonight), would start off
with a blue, red, green, and then a huge spot light white. When
I tried to look at it through binoculars, all I get is a very
dense orange ball, with a dark lining. I plan on going out with
my digital camera tonight and try to get pictures of it, and
maybe anything else I happen to spot.

One time, I said in my mind, while watching it, I thought,
"Please show me something amazing, I am no longer afraid, just
show me something:" All of sudden, a white, almost shooting
star, shot right from it..it was really cool. I thanked it, and
went inside.

Another thing I witnessed a couple years ago, which scared me
half to death, I was out watching the stars, as usual, and I was
about to go inside, when I happen to look straight up above me,
and there was a circler object, dark inside, but a ring around
it, it was orange (it reminded me of a hula hoop) It scared me
so much I went inside, and it was a very long time before I
could go back outside to look again.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

-----------------------

Buffalo, New York Orange Ring - UFO

Date: 2003
Time: 3:30 a.m.

Hi Brian, me again=85..

So where was I. I=92ll tell you, since I=92ve been writing you; more
and more things come to me that I have long forgotten. They were
small sightings, but still quite interesting.

Now, I left off with that orange ring. A few times last summer I
caught what I called revolving spotlights. I=92ve noticed them at
all hours. The last time I noticed them it was about 3:30 in the
morning. We had a family party that day and the last of our
guests were on the porch when I decided to go lay on a lounge
chair in the backyard to go stargazing. When I noticed the spot
light. See=85it was not one of those spotlights that come from a
grand opening at some store, that is what it resembled. But if
that were the case, there would have been some kind of source
from the ground where it was coming from. There never was. A
cloud always covered the source in which the light came. It was
above my head at this time. A nice big whitish cloud, and the
light would go around the whole cloud. Starting at one point and
go around, like a spot light.

I used to see so much at this point I would drag my husband out
to look around. We would see a lot of little cool things but the
thing that got to him the most, and till this day, he hasn=92t=92
gone out since, was the quick moving black object. We would
about to call it a night when just above our house was this
enormous black object. The size of a passenger plane, but it was
flying to low, so low if there were writing on the bottom of it,
we would have been able to read it just fine. It was long and
sleek, almost flat. It was so close and so fast, our ears should
have blown out from the noise, but there was none, total
silence. A thin line of soft red lighting, lined the bottom.

It was flying so fast you could barely keep your eye on it.

All I remember saying was, =93Holy Crap, Holy Crap, look at that,
Oh my God=94 I tried to keep up with it and see were it was
heading, and at the end all I noticed was a very faint light and
it seem to descended straight done very slowly and just
disappeared. My husband was like, =93o.k. that=92s it, I have seen
enough, I=92m going inside=94=85it blew him away. It made him very,
very uncomfortable.

He believes in it too, he has seen something a long time ago
that woke him up. A long time ago, in basic training, he was out
in the field one night, getting ready to call it a night. He
just happened to look up over by some trees when he noticed
three triangles, very close by, making no sound. As if it sensed
he had noticed them, in sync, all three turned side ways, (they
were paper thin) and shot off, and disappeared.

Thank you to the witness for the report and great diagrams.

Diagrams can be viewed at:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D19
65



------------------------

Eastern Shore of Maryland "V" Formation

Date: August 2004

Message: I am writing to let you know that I saw an almost exact
same formation of lights flying as Rich did in Arizona over the
Eastern Shore of Maryland one night in August 2004.

There was no noise and the lights appeared to be flying about
the height of a commercial airliner (or lower).

I watched "V" formation fly south to north and disappear in the
horizon. It's speed was difficult to determine, but clearly much
faster than a commercial aircraft.

At one point, one of the lights changed position in the
formation, clearly indicating to me that it was a UFO .

Thank you to the witness for the report.

----------------------------

Fort St. John, British Columbia Torpedo/Worm Shaped Object

Date: October 1, 2004
Time: 5:30 p.m.

Number of witnesses: 2
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Torpedo

Full Description of event/sighting: While washing dishes in the
evening I was looking out my window which faces due west. It was
a very pleasant evening with only a couple of large clouds to
the northwest backlit by the evening sun. There were two jet
trails crossing from the northeast to the southwest from two
jets that had passed earlier. This is a regular route for them.
I noticed a worm shaped object slowly travelling from southeast
to the northwest. It was as brilliant as a welding arc and was
travelling in a straight line. I called my husband to come and
see this thing. He did and said it looked like a torpedo. It had
no wings and was narrower at both ends. There were "sparkles" at
the back end of it. We watched it until it passed behind a cloud
and we waited for it to emerge following what we believed would
be it's trajectory but it never emerged. The sky was otherwise
clear and light blue. The whole incident lasted about 3 minutes.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

-----------------------------

Kansas USA Looked And Sounded Like A Small Plane

Date: October 14, 2004
Time: 8:45 p.m.

Location of Sighting: Small city airport.
Number of witnesses: 1
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Looked & sounded like a small twin engine plane.

Full Description of event/sighting: While parked at airport sky
watching heard the sound of a small twine engine plane and soon
saw it approach the airport from the north. It flashed its
lights four times and then dimmed them each time afterward. the
fourth time it just disappeared right there. It was about 2000
feet up, perhaps less.Franticly began searching the sky for
signs of it. About 30.000 or more feet above it saw a red light,
associated for some reason, with a jet plane due to its speed
crossing the night sky heading south. Don't know, if this
sighting was a UFO in your definition, but it was in mine. Also
noted 2 employees noting the presence of me and my car prior to
the sighting. One inside near the side doorway and another
outside in a hanger. Remember this is the same airport where a
local farmer in the past noted strange lights above his fields
at night that he noted left prior to dawn heading toward.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

------------------------

Phoenix Arizona UFOs Bizarre Lights - Two Video Clips

Date: October 14, 2004
Time: Two clips - #1 (1:14 a.m.) #2 (1:24 a.m.)

HBCC UFO Note: The two video clips are of the same object, just
taken from two different locations.

It's Rich here from Phoenix once again with some very
interesting clips. As you know the Presidential Debate was here
yesterday. The last time the President was here there was a lot
of unidentified flying objects so I decided to camp out in the
backyard for a while just to see if anything would happen. Well
it didn't, at first. So I decided to go to bed around 10:00 p.m.
but could not sleep or get sleepy. Around 11:45p.m. my dog was
starting to moan and yap as if something was getting his
attention. I figured he would stop but he kept it up for 10
minutes and I decided to check out what was bugging him. He was
staring out the back door as if something was there but when I
opened the door he was hesitant about going out so I went
outside first to see what's up. I turned on the lights out back
and saw nothing but I did catch something flying across the sky
extremely fast with a formation of lights unlike any plane I
have ever seen. It happened so fast I didn't remember if it made
any sound or what I was really looking at. About five minutes
later I not! iced an orange light rushing across the sky low in
the horizon.

The craft was moving to the East relatively fast and there were
no blinking lights. It went behind the trees and I lost sight of
it. About 5 minutes later coming from the East was a very bright
formation of lights low in the sky probably less than 10K ft.,
easily. I zoomed in with my video camera and noticed a V
formation of lights but not looking like a plane or several
planes in formation. Oh yeah, No sound! None whatsoever. It
looked like the classic V formation I have seen reported for
years on UFO documentaries and UFO websites. Of course I decided
to stay outside excited as I was just to see if it would come
back. It did come back, 9 more times. Every sequence exactly the
same. Over and over. I was up till 2:30 taping it every time it
came by just to document it. The object was the same object with
the orange glow but that was the front of it. By the time it
made its rounds it was going over my house. So ! I was looking
at the bottom and the side of it when it was close. I called
Luke Airforce Base today to see if they were doing extra fly
overs for security reasons because the President was in town.
But they said no. I asked if anyone reported seeing anything
weird in the sky and they said no as well. I can't believe that.
It was huge and flew around at least 10-15 times in exactly the
same route. The object did pass over my area 10 times while I
was outside and almost every time the object seemed to take on a
different shape but had many lights and made no noise. It looked
like a city in the sky! Here's a few clips. #4 is what it looked
like coming my way from about 20 miles or so and clip #3 is what
it looked like by my house. Hope all is well and have a great
night.

Thank you to the gentleman for all of the clips and report.

Video clip and pictures are =A92004RichG.

Video clip #1 Phoenix, Arizona Bizarre Lights 3.51 mbs
Video clip #2 Phoenix, Arizona Bizarre Lights 2.95 mbs

Video clip can be viewed at:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D1959

--------------------------

Ville De Gatineau, Quebec Cigar Shaped Craft - Two Reports

Date: October 14, 2004
Time: Midnight

Location of event: Zenith on the right over my house.
Number of witnesses: 3
Number of objects: 1
Shape of object: Cigar shaped like a comet.

It was midnight on October 14th when I looked out and saw a
luminous object that had the shape of a comet. It was about one
or 2 kilometers away in straight view. This is the 4th time I
see this in less than 2 years, always in the same spot. I
already contacted a local UFO group (www.ovni.ca) about it.

A previous sighting that happened on January 26th 2004 is well
documented. This phenomenon usually starts around 11 pm and ends
around 20 minutes after midnight, always at the same spot and
always in the shape of a comet, some kind of cloud shaped like a
cigar that is not moving and is up in the sky above my house. I
saw a small group of lights in a straight formation behind a
cloud and another group in V formation of 5 lights not far from
last night's phenomenon. I tried to take digital pictures of the
event but it was too dark outside. I had other sightings
previously that are investigated now. This one is simply
unexplainable.

I went to your website to see if other people have reported this
phenomenon.

Thank you to the witness for the report. Also I would like to
extend my deepest thanks to my friend who done the translation
from French to English for me.

--------------------------

South Of Great Falls, Montana Numerous Elliptical Lights

Date: October 15, 2004
Time: 6:55 a.m.

Number of witnesses: 2
Number of objects: 5-6
Shape of objects: Elliptical

Full Description of event/sighting: I am not sure I can even
describe it. It had rained all night and was still raining, so
I drove her to school. It was pitch dark, rainy, and maybe a
little cloudy (hard to tell in the dark). We are driving down a
coulee . Right in the bottom, suddenly these six elliptical
"lights", all in a row, about windshield height, appear out of
nowhere. I thought they were faintly yellow. My 16 year old
daughter thought they were white---not really bright, sort of
like headlights in the fog brightness, but different shape. We
both braced because we thought we were going to hit something.
 Then, just as suddenly, they seemed to go over us and were gone
briefly. They reappeared one more time as we went up the hill
and then we never saw them again. What do you think it was ?

Thank you to the witness for the report.

--------------------

San Antonio, Texas Was It A Meteorite

Date: October 15, 2004
Time: 11:18 p.m.

Looking north from my home( above garden ridge).
Number of witnesses: 1
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Round

Full Description of event/sighting: I was sitting on a bench in
my front yard and noticed what looked like a flare coming down
and towards me. It was yellowish orange but not a typical
falling star (much bigger) but streaked in that manner. It
lasted only a second or two.

I thought it may have been a meteorite that actually crashed.
But saw another report on your sight from san Antonio with
similar characteristics, so I posted my sighting.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

--------------------

Kat Cam Captures Two Possible UFOs Vancouver B.C.

HBCC UFO Note: A friend in Vancouver British Columbia sent me a
couple of pictures which she happened across which were taken
from the Kat Cam which is located in Vancouver, B.C. You can
also visit the website http://www.katkam.ca/ to watch for
yourself and maybe get lucky and see something.

I have posted two of the pictures of interest. Click on full
report to view.

Thank you to the person for sending along the pictures.

Photos can be viewed at:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D1971

---------------------
Books

UFO Defense Tactics: Weather Shield to Chemtrails - By:
Johnstone, A. K

Dr. Johnstone's book was selected by The Anomalous Book List, as
one of the ten best UFO books of 2002.

Description: The existence of UFOs is a phenomenon that
intrigues and captivates, yet it generates more skepticism than
acceptance. Witnesses of unconventional craft are often
disbelieved and even ridiculed. Belief in the existence of UFOs
is obviously not yet mainstream, but that may one day change.
Over the past few decades, reports of UFO sightings have
dramatically increased in North America. Further, these
sightings have been observed to be more blatant and even
menacing. Some reports even imply that these craft are
monitoring our planet.

Interestingly, many of these sightings have taken place over
military bases. In UFO Weather Shield, A.K. Johnstone, PhD.,
explores the details of numerous sightings from a scientific
viewpoint, including descriptions of craft, luminous sheaths and
fireballs. So what, if anything, is the United States government
doing about it? Johnstone suggests that military and government
agencies have the ability to manipulate weather
electromagnetically and with chemtrails to deter unconventional
craft. This hypothesis also explains erratic changes in the
weather in the last few years. Is the government creating a
weather shield to deter UFOs from entering the earth=92s
atmosphere? Take a look at the evidence.

To purchase the book, please visit:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D1934

Brian Vike
Director HBCC UFO Research
Home - Phone 250 845 2189
email: hbccufo.nul
Website: http://www.hbccufo.com
Redirect: http://www.canadianufo.com HBCC UFO RESEARCH
Newsletter At:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HBCC_UFO_Newsletter/








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   Oct > Oct 17

                            Pierre Salinger Gone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 05:20:10 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 12:13:04 -0400
Subject: Pierre Salinger Gone


Pierre Salinger Gone? Didn't He Do Some UFO Research?

Veteran journalist Pierre Salinger passed away last night.

If I recall, wasn't he one of the few mainstream journalists
that ventured into the UFO field of research?

I'm not sure and a quick search on the web points to some stuff
but I'm asking as I'm sure you guys would know more with the
correct references.


Best,

Greg








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   Oct > Oct 17

                  New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 05:54:01 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 12:15:05 -0400
Subject: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO


Source: ProfindPages

http://www.profindpages.com/news/2004/10/17/MN441.htm

10-17-04

Close encounter with green UFO in New Mexico

As many of our readers already know, we occasionally publish
reports on UFO sightings and Paranormal events. One of our
readers, Daniel Quintanilla, kindly sent us details of his
unusual sighting.

As Daniel points out in his letter, many people still consider
UFO sightings as something of a joke and our site is often
criticized for these reports. However, the only way to discover
the truth is keep an open mind and judge the situation for
yourself, on the evidence presented.

Whilst it is true that many stories "stretch" the imagination,
we think you will find that Daniel's story is not in this
category and describes an event that is hard to explain. But
perhaps, more importantly, it is a story that serves no purpose
to tell if it wasn't true.

It was in the summer of 2002. My brother was going to get
married in Las Vegas. He was flying out from Kansas City,
Missouri. Me and my mom decided to drive from Houston to Las
Vegas. It was a 36 hour drive, non-stop and I was the only one
driving. My mother was in the passenger seat, and my two sisters
were in the back seats.

It was our first time going to Las Vegas, but it wasn't my first
time to drive long distance. Anyway, we arrived at New Mexico,
and we were driving on Interstate 10, it was like between 2:00am
and 3:00am and we were in the middle of New Mexico. It was dark,
so dark you could barely see the mountains and the highway was
just 2 lanes. To my left you could see Mexico, it was like a
border line or something.

While I was driving everyone was asleep, I was getting sleepy
myself, but I managed to drive. My car was the only one on the
road, I was surprised not to even see any semi-trucks. Anyway,
while I was driving, in the far distance I happened to spot a
neon green circle light in the sky, I thought it was a traffic
light or something, but I thought to myself "In the highway?"
But as I got closer it seemed as though it was still far away.
It was just hovering in the air in one spot.

Suddenly, it came so fast that it was on top of the roof of my
van, on the passenger side were my mom was asleep. It didn't
touch the van, it was just following next to me, I would have to
say that it was about 2 feet above my roof. The "thing" was like
11" or 16" in diameter.

It followed me for like 3 seconds, then it took off fast. At the
time I didn't want to say anything, since everyone was asleep,
but when I looked at my mom, she was awake and we looked at each
other and I asked her if she saw what I think she saw, she said
"yes, what was that?" I was like, I have no idea. I asked her
why didn't she video tape it, because we had a video camera with
us, because we were taping our road trip. She said she didn't
want to say anything, just like I didn't want to say anything
too.

Then I was thinking, this is New Mexico and we were not too far
from Roswell. Until this day me and my mother haven't told
anyone about what we saw, because it will be all just a joke to
them, but we take it very seriously.

This area is indeed quite a hotspot for unusual events and we
have published many articles connected with this region.

We would like to thank Daniel Quintanilla for sharing his story
with us and look forward to hearing from other readers who may
have experienced similar events.








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   Oct > Oct 17

                      Re: NIDS 'Deactivates' - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 10:51:54 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 12:16:52 -0400
Subject: Re: NIDS 'Deactivates' - Lehmberg


>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 02:29:34 EDT
>Subject: NIDS 'Deactivates'

>Found on the NIDS web site

>http://www.nidsci.org/

>recently:

>-----
<snip>

>Should substantial activity occur with a need for investigation
>then NIDS will be reactivated with new personnel."

>-----

>Apparently the famous/infamous skinwalker ranch has produced no
>tangible information in at least the last 2.5 years either...
>which kind of goes along with a story I heard awhile back that
>the activity at the ranch pretty well ended in the 1999 - 2000
>time frame and literally dropped down to flat line with very
>very occasional happenings.


It may be that, with regard to UFOs, a watched pot _won't_ boil.
Be that as it may, I'm sure this news will re-energize the
garden variety 'klasskurtzian' to new levels of trollishly glad
capering - unjustified and obnoxiously strident denial...
despite a preponderance of historical, photographic, quality
anecdotal, physical, and personal evidence to the contrary,
blithely ignored by same.

Pity. It remains, there's a population of us who know what we've
seen, regardless.


alienview.nul -:=A6:-
  www.AlienView.net








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   Oct > Oct 17

                      Re: GSA Bluebook Films - Guenther

From: Daniel Guenther <daniel_g.nul-online.de>
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 17:53:30 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 12:18:29 -0400
Subject: Re: GSA Bluebook Films - Guenther


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 21:56:34 +0000
>Subject: Re: GSA Bluebook Films

>>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 12:13:24 -0500
>>Subject: GSA Bluebook Films

<snip>

BTW, I never found _any_ website that gives specific details
about the Project Blue Book Files. A market gap?


Daniel G.

--
JTC - UFO sightings database
http://www.ufodb.net








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   Oct > Oct 18

                       Re: NIDS 'Deactivates' - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 12:25:43 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 00:01:17 -0400
Subject: Re: NIDS 'Deactivates' - Boone


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 10:51:54 -0500
>Subject: Re: NIDS 'Deactivates'

>>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 02:29:34 EDT
>>Subject: NIDS 'Deactivates'

>>Found on the NIDS web site

>>http://www.nidsci.org/

>>recently:

>>-----
><snip>

>>Should substantial activity occur with a need for investigation
>>then NIDS will be reactivated with new personnel."

>>-----

>>Apparently the famous/infamous skinwalker ranch has produced no
>>tangible information in at least the last 2.5 years either...
>>which kind of goes along with a story I heard awhile back that
>>the activity at the ranch pretty well ended in the 1999 - 2000
>>time frame and literally dropped down to flat line with very
>>very occasional happenings.

>It may be that, with regard to UFOs, a watched pot _won't_ boil.
>Be that as it may, I'm sure this news will re-energize the
>garden variety 'klasskurtzian' to new levels of trollishly glad
>capering - unjustified and obnoxiously strident denial...
>despite a preponderance of historical, photographic, quality
>anecdotal, physical, and personal evidence to the contrary,
>blithely ignored by same.

>Pity. It remains, there's a population of us who know what we've
>seen, regardless.

ROFLMAO, Alfred!

"Watched pot won't boil."?

Remember earlier this year when John Velez posted that he was
going to take a hiatus and I responded saying that soon as he
did aliens would land on the White House lawn or something and
like a day or two later the Campeche Mexican UFO story broke?

I say we all 'fake' that we're going to retire and watch the
entire population of the Universe suddenly show up looking for
the nearest 99 cent store.


Best,

Greg







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   Oct > Oct 18

               Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO -

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 16:30:29 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 00:03:27 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO -


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 05:54:01 -0700
>Subject: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO

>Source: ProfindPages

>http://www.profindpages.com/news/2004/10/17/MN441.htm

>10-17-04

>Close encounter with green UFO in New Mexico

>As many of our readers already know, we occasionally publish
>reports on UFO sightings and Paranormal events. One of our
>readers, Daniel Quintanilla, kindly sent us details of his
>unusual sighting.

>As Daniel points out in his letter, many people still consider
>UFO sightings as something of a joke and our site is often
>criticized for these reports. However, the only way to discover
>the truth is keep an open mind and judge the situation for
>yourself, on the evidence presented.

>Whilst it is true that many stories "stretch" the imagination,
>we think you will find that Daniel's story is not in this
>category and describes an event that is hard to explain. But
>perhaps, more importantly, it is a story that serves no purpose
>to tell if it wasn't true.

>It was in the summer of 2002. My brother was going to get
>married in Las Vegas. He was flying out from Kansas City,
>Missouri. Me and my mom decided to drive from Houston to Las
>Vegas. It was a 36 hour drive, non-stop and I was the only one
>driving. My mother was in the passenger seat, and my two sisters
>were in the back seats.

>It was our first time going to Las Vegas, but it wasn't my first
>time to drive long distance. Anyway, we arrived at New Mexico,
>and we were driving on Interstate 10, it was like between 2:00am
>and 3:00am and we were in the middle of New Mexico. It was dark,
>so dark you could barely see the mountains and the highway was
>just 2 lanes. To my left you could see Mexico, it was like a
>border line or something.

>While I was driving everyone was asleep, I was getting sleepy
>myself, but I managed to drive. My car was the only one on the
>road, I was surprised not to even see any semi-trucks. Anyway,
>while I was driving, in the far distance I happened to spot a
>neon green circle light in the sky, I thought it was a traffic
>light or something, but I thought to myself "In the highway?"
>But as I got closer it seemed as though it was still far away.
>It was just hovering in the air in one spot.

>Suddenly, it came so fast that it was on top of the roof of my
>van, on the passenger side were my mom was asleep. It didn't
>touch the van, it was just following next to me, I would have to
>say that it was about 2 feet above my roof. The "thing" was like
>11" or 16" in diameter.

>It followed me for like 3 seconds, then it took off fast. At the
>time I didn't want to say anything, since everyone was asleep,
>but when I looked at my mom, she was awake and we looked at each
>other and I asked her if she saw what I think she saw, she said
>"yes, what was that?" I was like, I have no idea. I asked her
>why didn't she video tape it, because we had a video camera with
>us, because we were taping our road trip. She said she didn't
>want to say anything, just like I didn't want to say anything
>too.

>Then I was thinking, this is New Mexico and we were not too far
>from Roswell. Until this day me and my mother haven't told
>anyone about what we saw, because it will be all just a joke to
>them, but we take it very seriously.

>This area is indeed quite a hotspot for unusual events and we
>have published many articles connected with this region.

>We would like to thank Daniel Quintanilla for sharing his story
>with us and look forward to hearing from other readers who may
>have experienced similar events.

Frank,

My skeptical hackles rose immediately, based on internal
evidence. Look at a map. How can you be in the middle of New
Mexico on I-10 and see the Mexican border?

How could his mother be expected to videotape something that
arrived abruptly (when she supposedly was sleeping) and stayed
only 3 seconds?

And why does he talk like a 'Valley Girl'?


Dick








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   Oct > Oct 18

                           Betty Hill Passes At 85

From: Loren Coleman <lcoleman.nul>
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 23:19:27 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 00:27:42 -0400
Subject: Betty Hill Passes At 85



http://www.rense.com/general58/betty.htm


Betty Hill Passes
Away At Age 85
October 17, 2004

Betty Hill, the Grandmother of Ufology, passed away this
morning, October 17, 2004, at the age of 85. Betty struggled
with cancer for the past year.

I would like to thank everyone who sent cards and letters to
Betty. She will be missed by many.....


Avis Ruffu
friend of Betty's







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   Oct > Oct 18

                    UFOs Over Sierra La Ventana Argentina

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 13:38:31 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 00:30:48 -0400
Subject: UFOs Over Sierra La Ventana Argentina


INEXPLICATA
The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
October 17, 2004


Source: CIUFOS-La Pampa
Date:  October 14, 2004

UFOs Over Sierra La Ventana

During the course of research carried out by CIUFOS-La Pampa in
Sierra de la Ventana, Buenos Aires province, it was possible to
obtain these photographs which show unidentified flying objects.

The first image corresponds to photos taken at the specific
place that lends its name to the site (a natural window
formation amid a rocky formation).

At the time that the images were taken, a sort of sharp and
penetrating sound was perceived; the sound diminished and lost
intensity. In the belief that the sound could have come from a
jet aircraft, an uncommon event in the area, an unsucessful
effort was made to see one.

Upon developing the film, one picture shows an oval-shaped
object, reddish in color, turning left and ascending (from the
standpoint of the witnesses) having a Cirrus-Stratrus cloud
layer as a background as well as the "window" alluded to
earlier.

The second photograph corresponds to another image made from the
upper part of the Ventana system proper. An effort was being
made to shown the slopes and access road to the complex. Here
can be seen, in upper left corner, a form similar to an inverted
soup bowl with a cloud like ("cumulus") aspect; the well-
defined, rounded left profile can be made out along with its
domed upper section and an inverted depression (upward) in its
lower section.

This "cloud" is in turn shadowed by a cloud formation present at
the time and which can be seen above the slopes.

These photos were taken in March 2004 at the Ventana Complex.

Photos courtesy of Ra=FAl Oscar Chaves, CIUFOLaPampa
Reproduction permitted with acknowledgement of the source.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Translation (c) 2004 Scott Corrales
Special thanks to Raul Oscar Chaves










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   Oct > Oct 18

             Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor? -

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 14:51:50 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 00:38:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor? -


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 21:11:09 +0000
>Subject: Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor?

>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 10:27:48 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor?

<snip>

>>I think you are saying that you haven't read The Braxton County
>>Monster: The Cover-Up Of The Flatwoods Monster Revealed,
>>nor done the research. There is a great deal of evidence in the
>>historical record. Surely you are not saying "don't bother me
>>with the facts, my mind is made up"??

>>I visited Flatwoods and the site, reviewed Frank's work, talked
>>to some key witnesses, dug out lots of published info. Looked at
>>Blue Book material.

>>That is why I wrote the foreward and the epilogue and even
>>mentioned you favorably in the former.

>>Absence of evidence in your files doesn't mean there is no
>>evidence.

>>Read the book, then complain.

>Send me a copy and I'll read it. And as you well know, I have
>done lots of research. None of it supports the wild tale claimed
>in the write-ups of this book as presented on this List. (See
>also below.)

Yes, Dick, I am well aware that you have done lots of research.
But how much of it deals with Flatwoods? I checked and Frank
references more than 70 newspaper articles about events of Sept.
12, 1952. Are you claiming that you have read, reviewed and
evaluated all of them? Did you interview the newspaperman most
connected with the case, A.Lee Stewart Jr.? Did you interview
Colonel Dale Leavitt who headed the WV National Guard group at
the site that very evening? Frank did long interviews with both.
Did you review the Blue Book Files? Frank did. Did you talk to
other first hand witnesses? Listen to Ivan Sanderson's
discussion with Long John Nebel that I believe is on one of
Wendy Connors

CDs?

You mentioned Don Keyhoe and NICAP. NICAP didn't exist in 1952.
Keyhoe does discuss the case as does Jerry Clark in his
Encyclopedia. Did you actually check the Keyhoe papers for his
correspondence etc about the case?

Weren't you the one complaining about people not buying your
book. Would it be your intention to review Frank's book? It has
had interesting favorable reviews by John Schuessler and
Drs.Bruce Maccabee and Robert M. Wood already...

>>You might even read more info on my website or on Frank's:

>>http://www.flatwoodsmonster.com

>When I look at this site, all I find is someone promoting a book
>in rather sensational prose and trying to relieve my pocketbook
>of its few remaining centavos. The blurb it contains describes
>something akin to the War of the Worlds `panic' happening all
>along the East coast in September 1862. What baloney! How could
>that possibly escape all press coverage and be totally absent
>from the historical record?


> - Dick

It was well covered up with meteor explanations and nobody prior
to Frank has spent much effort digging.It was easy. It was 1952
not 1862. Roswell also barely made the historical record until I
got involved even though there were loads of articles not noted,
for example, by Ted Bloecher in his UFO Wave of 1947 volume. He
of course called it a hoax without talking to any witnesses ,
doing a thorough search, etc. How much coverage did the very
important Corona elint satellites get when launched in 1960?
The answer is none until NRL went public in 1995.

For those who wonder what the fuss is all about I have a few
copies available for the Hardcover book from me at UFORI,POB
958, Houlton, ME 04730-0958 for $33.50 including Priority mail
postage. Or call toll free at 877-457-0232.


Stan Friedman









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   Oct > Oct 18

                   Interest In Valparaiso Chile UFO Grows

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 14:03:53 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 06:52:29 -0400
Subject: Interest In Valparaiso Chile UFO Grows


INEXPLICATA
The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
October 17, 2004

Source: El Mercurio De Chile (www.mercuriovalpo.cl)
Date: Friday, October 15, 2004

Chile: Interest In Valparaiso UFO Grows

Ufologist Rodrigo Fuenzalida to visit Valparaiso to conduct
research

UFO experts will arrive in Valaparaiso to study a series of
claims involving UFOs in our region

According to Andres Rives, a UFO imagery expert and computer
operator for a major local organization, the image taken by
photojournalist Manuel Aguirre "is not the reflection of some
object. I dismiss the possibility of any light effect or
reflection. It is an independent source of light."

The expert said that we are facing something very strange and
intriguing. "It appears to be a distant nocturnal light (NL).
Upon cleaning it with computer filters, the lights stand out. By
manipulating the photo a little, we realize that the object has
a rhomboidal shape. Objects like this have been seen in Russia,
Mexico and the USA."

Interest in the photographs published by "El Mercurio de
Valaparaiso" this week, showing an alleged UFO in the hills, is
still evidenced by ufologists. Christian Riffo, president of
OVNIVISION, stated yesterday that the images  "were amazing" and
that we were facing a major news story.

He said that research will continue on the photos obtained by
photojournalist Manuel Aguirre in order to discard any light
effect or the accidental effect of the camera flash employed to
photograph "the spaceship".

TVN's morning program--"Buenos dias a todos"--hosted Rodrigo
Fuenzalida, sociologist and director of the Ufological
Investigations Group (AION, in Spanish), who presented this case
to the country, arousing the curiosity of the show's staff.

The expert stated that the alleged UFO is not a "light
reflection" or the reflection of a luminous object. "In
conversation with the  photo editor and the protagonist himself,
the possibility of manipulation as part of a hoax has been
dismissed. However, the theory of a lens flare or a possible
reflection of some source of light was discussed."

"The problem," he continued, "arises when we search for luminous
sources in a manner symmetrical to the alleged UFO. But we
beleive that the contribution of researching the site where the
events occurred will shed more definite light on this new
ufological problem," said Fuenzalida at his website:

www.aion.cl.

AION's leader shall travel to Valparaiso tomorrow with his team
to investigate the event "on site".

The ufologist explained that engineers and designers with the
GraphMedia corporation have made some approximations to the
phenomenon using computer filters, generating interesting data
on the body in question."

The sequence of filters created by engineer Miguel Cueto
contribute some interesting information: they show a body that
does not resemble any of the structures that exist in the area.


Translation (c) 2004 Scott Corrales
Special thanks to Liliana Nunez O.


From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
To:
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 14:03:53 -0400
Subject: Chile: Interest in Valparaiso UFO Grows


INEXPLICATA
The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
October 17, 2004

Source: El Mercurio De Chile (www.mercuriovalpo.cl)
Date: Friday, October 15, 2004

Chile: Interest In Valparaiso UFO Grows

Ufologist Rodrigo Fuenzalida to visit Valparaiso to conduct
research

UFO experts will arrive in Valaparaiso to study a series of
claims involving UFOs in our region

According to Andres Rives, a UFO imagery expert and computer
operator for a major local organization, the image taken by
photojournalist Manuel Aguirre "is not the reflection of some
object. I dismiss the possibility of any light effect or
reflection. It is an independent source of light."

The expert said that we are facing something very strange and
intriguing. "It appears to be a distant nocturnal light (NL).
Upon cleaning it with computer filters, the lights stand out. By
manipulating the photo a little, we realize that the object has
a rhomboidal shape. Objects like this have been seen in Russia,
Mexico and the USA."

Interest in the photographs published by "El Mercurio de
Valaparaiso" this week, showing an alleged UFO in the hills, is
still evidenced by ufologists. Christian Riffo, president of
OVNIVISION, stated yesterday that the images  "were amazing" and
that we were facing a major news story.

He said that research will continue on the photos obtained by
photojournalist Manuel Aguirre in order to discard any light
effect or the accidental effect of the camera flash employed to
photograph "the spaceship".

TVN's morning program--"Buenos dias a todos"--hosted Rodrigo
Fuenzalida, sociologist and director of the Ufological
Investigations Group (AION, in Spanish), who presented this case
to the country, arousing the curiosity of the show's staff.

The expert stated that the alleged UFO is not a "light
reflection" or the reflection of a luminous object. "In
conversation with the  photo editor and the protagonist himself,
the possibility of manipulation as part of a hoax has been
dismissed. However, the theory of a lens flare or a possible
reflection of some source of light was discussed."

"The problem," he continued, "arises when we search for luminous
sources in a manner symmetrical to the alleged UFO. But we
beleive that the contribution of researching the site where the
events occurred will shed more definite light on this new
ufological problem," said Fuenzalida at his website:

www.aion.cl.

AION's leader shall travel to Valparaiso tomorrow with his team
to investigate the event "on site".

The ufologist explained that engineers and designers with the
GraphMedia corporation have made some approximations to the
phenomenon using computer filters, generating interesting data
on the body in question."

The sequence of filters created by engineer Miguel Cueto
contribute some interesting information: they show a body that
does not resemble any of the structures that exist in the area.


Translation (c) 2004 Scott Corrales
Special thanks to Liliana Nunez O.








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                    Re: Men In Black Meetings Fake - Pope

From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 21:01:25 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 06:54:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Men In Black Meetings Fake - Pope


>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers ->
>Date: Saturday, October 16, 2004 12:26 PM
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Men In Black Meetings Fake

>Source: The Triangle - The Student Newspaper At Drexel University

>http://www.thetriangle.org/news/2004/10/15/SciTech/men-In.Black.Meetings.Fa
ke-754711.shtml

>10-15-04

>Men In Black Meetings Fake
>The Iron Skeptic

>By Aaron Sakulich

<snip>

>Some things, such as "lights in the sky" may also have a value
>to physicists, meteorologists, and other 'hard' scientists. One
>thing associated with UFOs that will never, ever, give up any
>hard scientific data is the phenomena of the so-called "Men In
>Black."

<snip>

Irrespective of what one thinks of this article, I would urge
caution when looking at the so-called "Men In Black" phenomenon.

This subject has been covered previously on this List and these
previous posts set out my views on some of the more prosaic
explanations that I believe may account for some MIB sightings:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/feb/m09-014.shtml

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/feb/m11-017.shtml


Best wishes,

Nick Pope








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   Oct > Oct 18

                      Re: Pierre Salinger Gone - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 14:53:23 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 06:56:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Pierre Salinger Gone - Hatch


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 05:20:10 EDT
>Subject: Pierre Salinger Gone

>Pierre Salinger Gone? Didn't He Do Some UFO Research?

>Veteran journalist Pierre Salinger passed away last night.

>If I recall, wasn't he one of the few mainstream journalists
that ventured into the UFO field of research?

>I'm not sure and a quick search on the web points to some stuff
>but I'm asking as I'm sure you guys would know more with the
>correct references.

Hi Greg:

Maybe its just me, but the well known name of Pierre Salinger
just doesn't ring any bells with respect to UFO research. As
Press Secretary, he might have made some passing remarks. If he
did UFO research, he may have kept it quiet for predictable
reasons.

Best

- Larry









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   Oct > Oct 18

                   Canadians Tell Their Abduction Stories

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 21:36:58 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 07:00:16 -0400
Subject: Canadians Tell Their Abduction Stories


Source: The Edmonton Journal, Alberta

http://www.canada.com/edmonton/edmontonjournal/news/story.html?id=92c37edb-1db9-
4df0-acb5-3a5a4bba1c00

10-17-04

Night Sky Holds Terrifying Memories For Alien Abductees

Jeff Holubitsky

EDMONTON -- The two men didn't want their names used for fear of
ridicule, but they had a story to tell.

It haunts their dreams and has forever changed the way they look
into the night sky, said the men, who came, as did about two
dozen others, to the first conference of the Alberta UFO Study
Group on Saturday afternoon.

Around 2 a.m. on April 29, 1997, the two men were driving
between Valleyview and Grande Prairie when a bright red light
approached them from above, one of the men recalled.

The wind around them picked up, they fell unconscious, and awoke
in a space ship, he said. "I remember I was fighting them and I
kicked one between the legs, but they didn't have no testicles,"
one of the men said.

He said he looked at his friend, who had some sort of golden
apparatus in his mouth.

"Then they probed me," he said, with tears beginning to well in
his eyes.

"I remember it as clear as yesterday."

He said he blacked out and when he regained consciousness he was
back in his car, speeding down the same highway in the wrong
direction. It took them more than six hours to make a 45-minute
trip.

Physically, the former bull rider said he felt as sore as if
he'd competed in a rodeo the night before.

"I was quiet for two or three weeks, then I started to remember
it," he said. "I still have dreams."

The men came to the rented room at University of Alberta
Conference Centre, as others did, with an intense or personal
interest in unexplained phenomena. They gathered to share
experiences, philosophies, conspiracy theories, even skepticism,
at the day-long event organized by Jim Moroney, a health and
safety inspector with his own life-changing story to tell.

The executive director of the Alberta Municipal Health and
Safety Association says he was driving from Edmonton to Ontario
several years ago when he stopped his car near Winnipeg.

Moroney discounts theories that he might have temporarily fallen
asleep on his feet. He maintains he was completely awake and
standing next to his car to get some fresh air when a UFO
appeared -- a big bright object that hovered above him for six
or seven seconds before disappearing.

"It was probably about 20 feet above me," he said. " I still get
shaky talking about it, but the air underneath it was dead."

He's uncomfortable recounting the story in public. "It would be
silly to say that I wouldn't be nervous some people would be
prejudiced against me because of my ideas on these phenomena,"
he said.

But like others at the conference, he believes there needs to be
serious study into unexplained stories shared by so many people
around the globe.

"We have to invite skepticism into this because it is only
through challenging this through scientific means and really
being honest about these challenges, that we'll filter out a
body of evidence that is irrefutable one way or the other."

Former pilot Ken Burgess, who investigates UFO sightings for the
group, isn't about to speculate about the strange object he saw
above a plane he was flying. He's angered by tales of little
green men, because they damage serious inquiry into the subject.
But he knows he saw what he saw.


He has talked to people who have reported all kinds of objects
in Alberta's skies. Some sightings have been as recent as last
month -- giant flying black triangles above St. Albert.

"I just take the information and try to track it down," he said.
"Did they pick it up on radar or did anyone else see it?"

The conference also heard from Fern Belzil, one of the world's
top authorities in cattle mutilation. In the past eight years,
the 80-year-old rancher from St. Paul has investigated more than
100 cases, the last ones just a few weeks ago.

Since the mad-cow crisis, farmers have generally kept quiet when
their cattle or other animals are found with lips, tongues,
udders, genitals, noses, eyes and rectums removed with surgical
precision.

Showing slide after slide of mutilations, he insists he can
instantly see differences between inexplainable injuries and
those caused by predators or maggots.

Belzil is not certain what is happening to the animals.

"A lot of arrows point towards aliens," he said. "But we have no
proof."


jholubitsky.nul

c. The Edmonton Journal 2004








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               Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO -

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 21:42:22 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 07:02:59 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO -


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 16:30:29 +0000
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO

>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 05:54:01 -0700
>>Subject: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO

>>Source: ProfindPages

>>http://www.profindpages.com/news/2004/10/17/MN441.htm

>>10-17-04

>>Close encounter with green UFO in New Mexico

>>.. Daniel Quintanilla, kindly sent us details of his
>>unusual sighting.

<snip>

>>.. Anyway, we arrived at New Mexico,
>>and we were driving on Interstate 10, it was like between 2:00am
>>and 3:00am and we were in the middle of New Mexico. It was dark,
>>so dark you could barely see the mountains and the highway was
>>just 2 lanes. To my left you could see Mexico, it was like a
>>border line or something.

<snip>

>>Suddenly, it came so fast that it was on top of the roof of my
>>van, on the passenger side were my mom was asleep. It didn't
>>touch the van, it was just following next to me, I would have to
>>say that it was about 2 feet above my roof. The "thing" was like
>>11" or 16" in diameter.

<snip>

>My skeptical hackles rose immediately, based on internal
>evidence. Look at a map. How can you be in the middle ofNew
>Mexico on I-10 and see the Mexican border?

>How could his mother be expected to videotape something that
>arrived abruptly (when she supposedly was sleeping) and stayed
>only 3 seconds?

>And why does he talk like a 'Valley Girl'?


Hi Dick, Frank:

The only short stretch where I-10 adjoins the Mexican border is
just West and North of El Paso, TX- hardly an unpopulated area.

Nowhere is I-40 just two lanes, two in each direction with a
median strip perhaps.

I've seen tales like this before. One of them in a weekly UFO
e-report named highways, towns, mountains etc. that were all
hundreds of miles apart.

I wonder if some of this stuff comes from people just trying to
bait ufologists, or lure them into some kind of trap. It could
be as simple as a school project to show how gullible we are.
Websites and publications that buy in can then be held up as
'proof' what idiots we are.

The 'valley-girl' talk could be a purposeful veneer of
authenticity if this has any merit.

Then again, it could be some guy who really talks like that,
and - unsurprisingly - cannot read a map.


Best

- Larry








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   Oct > Oct 18

                    Re: Betty Hill Passes At 85 - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul>
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 21:49:30 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 07:04:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Betty Hill Passes At 85 - Tonnies


>From: Loren Coleman <lcoleman.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 23:19:27 -0400
>Subject: Betty Hill Passes At 85

>http://www.rense.com/general58/betty.htm

>Betty Hill Passes Away At Age 85
>October 17, 2004

>Betty Hill, the Grandmother of Ufology, passed away this
>morning, October 17, 2004, at the age of 85. Betty struggled
>with cancer for the past year.

<snip>

First John Mack and Gordon Cooper... It seems ufology is losing
some interesting people in a very short span of time. Stay
healthy, everybody.

See:

http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com

for a drawing based on the Hill abduction case.



=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot*yahoo.com)

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com

New book: "After the Martian Apocalypse"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/074348293X








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   Oct > Oct 18

                          The Passing Of Betty Hill

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 23:22:14 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 07:05:34 -0400
Subject: The Passing Of Betty Hill


Such a sad day. Ufology lost a great lady of courage, compassion
and humor. She now shines with the stars and will terribly
missed.

Wendy Connors
www.fadeddiscs.com







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               Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO -

From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul>
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 00:24:39 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 07:06:44 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO -


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 16:30:29 +0000
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO

>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 05:54:01 -0700
>>Subject: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO

>>Me and my mom decided to drive from Houston to Las
>>Vegas. It was a 36 hour drive, non-stop and I was the only one
>>driving. My mother was in the passenger seat,

>>It was our first time going to Las Vegas, but it wasn't my first
>>time to drive long distance. Anyway, we arrived at New Mexico,
>>and we were driving on Interstate 10, it was like between 2:00am
>>and 3:00am and we were in the middle of New Mexico. It was dark,
>>so dark you could barely see the mountains and the highway was
>>just 2 lanes. To my left you could see Mexico, it was like a
>>border line or something.

>>While I was driving everyone was asleep, I was getting sleepy
>>myself, but I managed to drive....

<snip>

>>It followed me for like 3 seconds, then it took off fast. At the
>>time I didn't want to say anything, since everyone was asleep,
>but when I looked at my mom, she was awake and we looked at each
>>other and I asked her if she saw what I think she saw, she said
>>"yes, what was that?" I was like, I have no idea. I asked her
>>why didn't she video tape it, because we had a video camera with
>>us, because we were taping our road trip. She said she didn't
>>want to say anything, just like I didn't want to say anything
>>too.

>My skeptical hackles rose immediately, based on internal
>evidence. Look at a map. How can you be in the middle of New
>Mexico on I-10 and see the Mexican border?

>How could his mother be expected to videotape something that
>arrived abruptly (when she supposedly was sleeping) and stayed
>only 3 seconds?

>And why does he talk like a 'Valley Girl'?

Why does he talk like a 'Valley Girl'? Because most young people
these days talk like valley girls. Now consider the following
possibilities.

I-10 creeps up the Rio Grande in the vicinity of El Paso passing
within a mile or two of the border at some points. Only 15 miles
north of El Paso, I-10 crosses the Texas/N.M. border, which is
indeed in the middle of N.M.

Mr. Valley Girl might be a Texas steer without the sharpest pair
of horns. Being 3 in the morning and already dead tired doesn't
help sharpen his horns either. Maybe he thought he was already
in N.M. when he was near El Paso, but he wasn't. Far fetched?
Consider that a majority of his generation can't even locate
Europe on the map.

Or maybe he was west of Las Cruces on I-10, which parallels the
border at a distance of about 30-40 miles. But Mr. Valley Girl
probably isn't the fastest jackrabbit in the desert. Maybe he
thinks he can see the border, even if he can't.

As for Valley Mom being asleep, he said he thought she was
asleep, but she wasn't. She saw the event too, even if it lasted
only a few seconds. As for his bewilderment that she didn't
videotape it, I think we've already established that maybe the
guy was as slow as a Texas armadillo.

Point is, the guy probably didn't work as a NASA rocket
scientist in Houston, and that may explain a lot. I agree this
isn't an el primo report but I certainly wouldn't dismiss it out
of hand.


David Rudiak








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                   Re: Betty Hill Passes At 85 - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 06:37:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 09:34:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Betty Hill Passes At 85 - Lehmberg


>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 21:49:30 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Re: Betty Hill Passes At 85

>>From: Loren Coleman <lcoleman.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 23:19:27 -0400
>>Subject: Betty Hill Passes At 85

>>http://www.rense.com/general58/betty.htm

>>Betty Hill Passes Away At Age 85
>>October 17, 2004

>>Betty Hill, the Grandmother of Ufology, passed away this
>>morning, October 17, 2004, at the age of 85. Betty struggled
>>with cancer for the past year.

><snip>

>First John Mack and Gordon Cooper... It seems ufology is losing
>some interesting people in a very short span of time. Stay
>healthy, everybody.

>See:

>http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com

>for a drawing based on the Hill abduction case.


Still -- Crass klasskurtzians caper gleefully around their
secret idea burning fires and prepare to offer this as either
evidence or metaphor for the decline (death) of the whole field,
I'm betting. I look forward to shoving their smug
pontifications up beaky noses as time goes on... and in the near
term, I suspect. Acknowledged acceleration to the aggregate sea
change of our world-view remains immanent.

alienview.nul -:=A6:-
  www.AlienView.net







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                  Re: The Passing Of Betty Hill - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 07:02:32 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 09:37:36 -0400
Subject: Re: The Passing Of Betty Hill - Lehmberg


>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates <UFOUpdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 23:22:14 -0600
>Subject: The Passing Of Betty Hill

>Such a sad day. Ufology lost a great lady of courage, compassion
>and humor. She now shines with the stars and will terribly
>missed.


You were too gracious to mention this, Wendy, or remind folks
about it, so I will.

Betty Hill, along with her inordinately courageous husband,
Barney, had a credible story to tell. Hours of their
reflections, interviews, and testimony are contained, along with
other related historic audio recordings (25 hours plus), on a
compact disc that Wendy has produced. That disc can be procured
here:

http://www.fadeddiscs.com/ceiv.html

if the reader is interested in Betty and Barney Hill's story.
This is probably a good place to start. The history is real and
none of the names were changed to protect the innocent.

And no apologies here. I'd only hope someone would tell my
small tale after I'm gone... that I could go down in our history
as one of the more stalwart individuals to have lived... brave,
in-your-face individuals like Betty and Barney Hill... they are
minor gods in _my_ personal ufological pantheon.

...oh, and don't make too much out of the metaphor, 'K? ...K.


alienview.nul -:=A6:-
  www.AlienView.net








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                    Re: The Passing Of Betty Hill - Koch

From: Joachim Koch <lists.nul>
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 14:27:18 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 09:39:19 -0400
Subject: Re: The Passing Of Betty Hill - Koch


Very often when I looked up to the stars I was reminded of the
dramatic abduction of Betty and Barney and the important
information Betty had received.

Now she can draw the real map...

Good bye, Betty.

Joachim Koch


----------------------------
Breaking news about
Project Toliman of July, 26, 2004 at:
http://www.kochkyborg.de
----------------------------








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   Oct > Oct 19

                    Can Anyone Identify This Battleship?

From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:00:21 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 08:04:20 -0400
Subject: Can Anyone Identify This Battleship?


Hi Listers,

Can anyone identify this Battleship?

http://www.colsweb.com/Marsdam.gif

( 96 KB approx )

It seems to be of modern type class to me.

Does anyone know of one similar, which is missing?


Kind regards,

Col








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                  Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 11:46:22 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 08:06:52 -0400
Subject: Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS - Kaeser


>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 14:41:38 +0100 (BST)
>Subject: More On The Closure Of NIDS

>Source:

>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/2271/

>The End of the National Institute for Discovery Science (NIDS)

>Elizabeth Dane
>July 2004

>I recently sat down for lunch with a former staff member of the
>National Institute for Discovery Science (NIDS). As a long time
>follower of the UFO field, over the years I had often heard
>stories and read rumors on message boards posted by
>conspiratorial minded Ufologists that NIDS was a front for the
>CIA; that NIDS had in its possession a crashed alien spacecraft;
>that NIDS was privy to secrets regarding alien technology; and
>many others.

<snip>

The passing of NIDS is really of no surprise, given the funding
source. As I understand it, Robert Bigalow (who is the funding
source for NIDS) is heavily involved in the Hotel industry,
which was severely impacted by 9/11 as fewer people were
traveling around the world. The fact that NIDS has had to change
focus and do more with less has been discussed by some in the
past.

Robert Bigalow has a long history in working with UFO groups,
and I believe that he formed NIDS to counter what he perceived
to be an inability of the three primary UFO groups to provide
good leadership in seeking a scientific solution to the mystery.
Unfortunately, the amount of money that he could throw into this
bottomless pit became limited and it probably never really had
the independence that it would have needed to survive.

One hopes that that information compiled by NIDS and the reports
that written and submitted to NIDS remain available to UFO
researchers. As far as others in ufology pursuing this mystery
from a scientific perspective, I would hope that occurs (but I'm
not holding my breath).


Steve








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               Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO -

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 09:21:44 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 08:20:07 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO -


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 09:39:48 -0400
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 16:30:29 +0000
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO

>>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 05:54:01 -0700
>>>Subject: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO

>>>Source: ProfindPages

>>>http://www.profindpages.com/news/2004/10/17/MN441.htm

>>>10-17-04

>>>Close encounter with green UFO in New Mexico

>>>As many of our readers already know, we occasionally publish
>>>reports on UFO sightings and Paranormal events. One of our
>>>readers, Daniel Quintanilla, kindly sent us details of his
>>>unusual sighting.

>>>As Daniel points out in his letter, many people still consider
>>>UFO sightings as something of a joke and our site is often
>>>criticized for these reports. However, the only way to discover
>>>the truth is keep an open mind and judge the situation for
>>>yourself, on the evidence presented.

><snip>

>>>We would like to thank Daniel Quintanilla for sharing his story
>>>with us and look forward to hearing from other readers who may
>>>have experienced similar events.

>>My skeptical hackles rose immediately, based on internal
>>evidence. Look at a map. How can you be in the middle of New
>>Mexico on I-10 and see the Mexican border?

>>How could his mother be expected to videotape something that
>>arrived abruptly (when she supposedly was sleeping) and stayed
>>only 3 seconds?

>>And why does he talk like a 'Valley Girl'?

>I wonder how Hector Quintanilla would evaluate this sighting. Of
>course, you all know who Hector was.

>Don't you?

Bruce, Dick,

After a thorough investigation, Hector would have surmised that
his namesake obviously drove through some toxic swamp gas which
caused him to hallucinate, and he really only saw venus in the
distance.....


Frank








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   Oct > Oct 19

                          The Passing Of Betty Hill

From: Gary Matteson <mystrius.nul>
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 13:01:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 08:22:51 -0400
Subject: The Passing Of Betty Hill


I met Betty Hill in Rochester, N.Y. when she spoke at the last
MUFON Symposium held there. I regret not knowing Betty longer
than only those few brief moments.

Betty Hill was/is a character purely New Hampshire; she is
singular in nature but rich in the number of people who cared
for and about Betty, such that, I would want the same gift for
everyone of good heart and mind.


Gary Matteson







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               Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO -

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 14:51:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 08:28:18 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO -


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 09:11:03 -0700
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 16:30:29 +0000
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO

<snip>

>>My skeptical hackles rose immediately, based on internal
>>evidence. Look at a map. How can you be in the middle of New
>>Mexico on I-10 and see the Mexican border?

>Playing "devil's advocate," perhaps geography is not his strong
>suit."

>>How could his mother be expected to videotape something that
>>arrived abruptly (when she supposedly was sleeping) and stayed
>>only 3 seconds?

>I got the impression she witnessed the whole event, after he
>(Quintanilla) realized she wasn't sleeping.

>>And why does he talk like a 'Valley Girl'?

>Like, the article didn't divulge his age.....

>Kidding aside, all there is without further investigation, is
>words on a paper. Is this a young man's creative imagination, or
>an actual event not described with great accuracy, but
>apparently in his own words. (Valley Girl lingo). :)

>Separately, I have contacted the editor on some erroneous
>information published in another UFO related article some time
>back, and he seemed genuinely interested in the "validity" of
>the copy that appears on his web-site; in this instance, it's a
>declaration from one of "his readers," and of course can only be
>taken at "face value."


Hi Frank, Dick, others,

Upon further research this afternoon, it would appear that green
balls of light are not an uncommon sight in New Mexico. As the
sightee noted specifically a "neon circle light", it was interesting
to find several similar sightings from New Mexico, and more
interesting to find Dick Hall's name associated therewith. See these
links...

http://tinyurl.com/3myh7
http://www.aztecufo.com/ufo-oral_history/oral7.htm
http://ufos.about.com/library/weekly/aa080597.htm

While I still feel that this case leaves a lot of unanswered
questions, the above references seem to show that the sightee's
experience is not unique for the area involved.

Curioser and curioser... I wonder of the sightee had read any of
these accounts prior to his experience?


Best Regards,

Kyle








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               Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO -

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 15:49:27 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 08:30:05 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO -


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 09:39:48 -0400
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 16:30:29 +0000
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO

<snip>

>I wonder how Hector Quintanilla would evaluate this sighting.
>Of course, you all know who Hector was.

>Don't you?

Hi Bruce,

I think many or most will recall Lt. Colonel H.Q. as head of
Bluebook for years.

How would he evaluate the Valley Guy sighting?

I'm pretty sure he would have pounced on the inconsistencies
Dick pointed out for one thing.


best

- Larry








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   Oct > Oct 19

                    Anne Strieber Recovering From Stroke

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 08:34:54 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 08:34:54 -0400
Subject: Anne Strieber Recovering From Stroke




Source: Whitley Strieber's Unkown Country

http://www.unknowncountry.com/news/?id=4202

10-19-04


Anne Strieber Recovering From Stroke

At 9:30 PM on Saturday, October 16, Anne Strieber experienced a
subarachnoid hemorrhage. This is caused by the bursting of an
aneurysm in the brain and is usually asymptomatic until the
stroke takes place. There was no warning.

Anne received excellent care very quickly, thanks to fast and
effective support at the Kaiser-Permanente Sunset Hospital in
Los Angeles. She is now continuing her recovery at another
hospital, where she has been transferred because of her highly
specialized needs, and is receiving expert care there, too.

She is in surprisingly good condition, given the seriousness of
her disease, and there is reason to hope that she might make a
full recovery. Your prayers and healing thoughts are needed, and
very welcome.

This website will function on a reduced news schedule at this
time. Mysterious Powers will be on hiatus pending Anne's return.
Available shows will remain on the site, as will her last diary
entry, until she returns and continues her work.

A message from Whitley Strieber: "Thank you from the bottom of
my heart for all the prayers, good wishes and support. In the
dangerous and desperate hours of Saturday night, fans of Coast
to Coast AM rushed to our aid with effective and crucially
important help, and we are eternally grateful to Art Bell for
making that happen."

"Please keep your prayers and healing coming. Prayer works, and
I am convinced that your prayers are working for us."









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                 Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 06:58:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 09:52:43 -0400
Subject: Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS - Lehmberg


>From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 10:49:51 -0500 (CDT)
>Subject: Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS

>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 14:41:38 +0100 (BST)
>>Subject: More On The Closure Of NIDS

>>Source:

>>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/2271/

>>The End of the National Institute for Discovery Science (NIDS)

><snip>

>>My acquaintance confided that largely unknown to outsiders, NIDS
>>fell prey to a variety of internal problems: poor management,
>>lack of direction, lack of creativity, lack of funding, a
>>negative company culture, poor hiring decisions, and low morale
>>fueled by annual layoffs. This was compounded by the elusive
>>nature of the field of study. In one example, when my
>>acquaintance, newly hired, asked for direction, the response
>>given was to "spend a couple of hours a day surfing the web for
>>items of interest." (!)

><snip>

>>It is time for the UFO community to stop speculating on the
>>research being conducted at the National Institute for Discovery
>>Science and devise new research projects of their own.

>That's odd. I presented a list of such projects to the UFO
>community (and, in fact, NIDS itself) several years ago. I was,
>of course, ignored.

>To refresh some memories, here it is again:

<snip>

I think it's enough that these questions remain, after having
been repeatedly asked and as _often_ ignored, that is proof
positive of a duplicitous mainstream, it's unwillingness to deal
with the potential of the questions rationally provoked by the
preceding questions, and that we hold too dear to a murky past
slipping through our fingers as we turn our backs on a future
approaching even as we escalate our irrational denial of it.


alienview.nul  -:=A6:-
   www.AlienView.net







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             Quintanilla Redux [was: New Mexico Close Encounter

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 08:00:04 _0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 10:01:34 -0400
Subject: Quintanilla Redux [was: New Mexico Close Encounter


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 15:49:27 -0700
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 09:39:48 -0400
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO

<snip>

>>I wonder how Hector Quintanilla would evaluate this sighting.
>>Of course, you all know who Hector was.

>>Don't you?

>I think many or most will recall Lt. Colonel H.Q. as head of
>Bluebook for years.

>How would he evaluate the Valley Guy sighting?

>I'm pretty sure he would have pounced on the inconsistencies
>Dick pointed out for one thing.


<snip>

The proceeding is based on experienced conjecture, so I think it
holds the necessary water...

I'm going to suggest something very uncomfortable. I mean no
offense, and I'm otherwise loath to offend polite sensibility
(sincerely!) but I don't think that Hector Quintanilla is being
considered through the proper filter of the times in which he
lived. A proper filter puts a different spin on the validity of
Quintanilla's testimony as regards the existence of UFOs, his
criticism of Hynek, and his contribution to the history of
ufology.

The times to which I refer were very heavily influenced by
institutional racism, significantly unequal professional playing
fields, and a speciously unfair cultural advantage of some
members in the culture over others. By way of example, I once
had a very white, blue-eyed Italian, West Point second
lieutenant tell me in the late seventies, during a helicopter
live fire exercise at an aerial gunnery range in Germany, that
he'd been _mentored_ against expecting to be a General officer
in the Armed Forces simply because his name ended in a VOWEL.
This officer was even of some positive notoriety: he kicked the
winning field goal in an Army/Navy grudge game...

Every year that one goes back in the history of the American
Armed Forces, one discovers further retreat from the
(comparative) egalitarian reality enjoyed today. This is
forgetting that the Armed Forces lead the way to social reform
(for pragmatic reasons... the military _has_ to work). This
writer was a proud part of that reform, despite the
pragmatism... but I digress...

Speaking with some experience in the matter I'd suggest that a
Latin (Mexican?) American of _any_ stripe (and wearing _any_
uniform) in the late 50's and early sixties of American society,
was seen as a second class citizen by the contrived mainstream.
This is, in no way, to denigrate the performance, capability,
and intelligence of Lt. Colonel Quintanilla, quite the contrary.
That an individual of color operating in a "white capacity" of
that time had to put out 150 percent of effort to maintain 75
percent of the consideration of that capacity is _small_
hyperbole!

An officer of color had to be more steadfast than steadfast. He
- _he_ exclusively, there _were_ no women, essentially - had to
be more efficient than _merely_ efficient. An officer of color
could be _too_ intelligent and innovative and become an
embarrassment to inferior 'superior' officers. That officer of
color had to be more loyal than staunchly loyal... and therein
is found the root of his ironic invalidity as a ufological
witness.

Heading up the latter Project Blue Book was not a choice
assignment, by any means. It was a dead end at best - an
opportunity where one had every occasion to piss off the
principals. At worst? It was likely seen as career death...

Quintanilla would not have volunteered for Blue Book - it would
have been thrust upon him after a string of white officers "more
capable" had found some way to weasel out. Quintanilla would
have had no weasel room. With his career at stake from the
'gitty-up' because of his color, he would follow his orders with
a smile on his face and his resolute chin set. He would also
try diligently to adhere to the party line. Quintanilla knew
which way the wind blew. That he was where he was, at all, is
stark evidence of that.

At the time, UFOs were evolving into a very politically
incorrect line of inquiry. The mode of investigation had become
slapdash and biased on the side of the resolute negativist
prosecuting a narrow focused program of "reasonable" ufological
denial. It was up to Quintanilla to prove that UFOs were a non
issue that did not warrant further costly investigation. It
fell to Quintanilla to get the fledgling Airforce out of the
uncomfortable business of UFOs.

Privy to a bit more of the big picture than the rank and file
citizen of the time and on direction of his suspiciously
motivated superiors, Quintanilla would have prosecuted that
distorted picture with _rare_ diligence if he wanted to keep a
position and rank so meaningful to him. He might swallow pride
and he might even compromise ethical principles, but he would be
able at the same time to rationalize his contribution as the
performance of his assigned and implied duty, which it assuredly
was. Quintanilla _is_ the innocent in all of this - a man
under inordinate stress, and at the whim of his white ticket-
puncher.

I've seen Quintanilla on black and white TV since I was a kid,
testifying negatively on the subject of UFOs, and I always get
the impression that he is stonewalling, effectively and
believably, with some uneasy knowledge of the greater reality,
but stonewalling none the less. Additionally, even as a kid
growing up in a family not overtly racist, I idly wondered why
they had given such an 'important' position to a 'Mexican'...
ashamed to say, but I digress.

Quintanilla did not seem comfortable, at any rate, calling the
suspected black cat, white... but he was just the man for the
job. Nobody worked harder than Quintanilla did to achieve what
he had achieved as a career officer. I imagine that he was not
going to let something he didn't have the time or inclination to
believe himself (alien space invaders!) torpedo his hopes and
dreams and the hopes and dreams of his entire family, extended
and otherwise! He would testify the same to the end of his life
from embarrassed _inertia_ or perhaps from a sense of historical
consistency to facilitate the "National Security..."

No - before one takes Lt. Colonel Quintanilla's negative
testimony to the contributory level of Ruppelt, Hynek, and
Vallee (or even use Quintanilla to discredit the reputations of
those three), one must filter him through those times when men
of color had to provide ample and inordinate demonstration that
they were predictable and dependable company men (squared or
even cubed to revisit the earlier small hyperbole). One must
also add to validity's equation how loath Quintanilla would
understandably be to give up hard won gains for an ethereal no-
win like UFOs.

At the end of the filtering and the reasonable addition of
psychosocial baggage Quintanilla must have carried, one might
begin to conclude that Quintanilla's contribution to the
'reasonable' dismissal of ufology had axes to grind that are
difficult to talk about, consider, and finally accept. The
racism and bigotry that Quintanilla undoubtedly experienced as
an Airforce officer is enough to mask his feelings, cloud his
judgment, and make his testimony less than reliable. Doing his
duty, between the rock and the invariable hard place men of
color were more subject too then, Hector Quintanilla was just
another unrecognized and unappreciated victim of bigotry and
racism that continues in a form not all that reduced from what
it was then, today. He was a, I think reluctant, transmitter of
mainstream propaganda, to wit: "We are, too, Alone..."

So his testimony, in the unappreciated aggregate, may be
questionable for reasons no one has ever considered before. He
was not going to risk his career on a horse that was to be shot
before it left the starting gate. It made much more sense to
follow the lead of conflicted superiors, do his duty (even
protect the national security), but parrot the accepted party
line and qualify the usual propaganda he did not seem all that
comfortable professing on black and white (but mostly white) TV.

more:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/mar/m11-010.shtml

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/mar/m08-017.shtml

alienview.nul _:=A6:-
 www.AlienView.net









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   Oct > Oct 19

                   UFO Expert To Speak At University Event

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 07:59:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 10:05:05 -0400
Subject: UFO Expert To Speak At University Event


Source: Asbury Park Press - New Jersey

http://www.app.com/app/story/0,21625,1083999,00.html

10-19-04

UFO Expert To Speak At University Event

WEST LONG BRANCH: The Monmouth University Student Activities
Board will offer a lecture by Robert Hastings entitled "UFOs:
The Hidden History" at 8 p.m. Monday in the Student Center,
Anacon Hall. The event is free and open to the public.

Hastings, an independent UFO researcher and lecturer, will
present a 90-minute slide show illustrating that the U.S.
government has allegedly covered up the existence of UFOs.
Hastings will attempt to prove his theory by citing evidence in
recently declassified government documents.

Hastings has spoken at more than 500 colleges and universities
since 1981.


-- Carol Gorga Williams








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                Woman Who Gained Fame With UFO Narrative Dies

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 10:09:31 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 10:09:31 -0400
Subject: Woman Who Gained Fame With UFO Narrative Dies




Source: The Portsmouth Herald - New Hampshire

http://www.seacoastonline.com/news/10192004/news/43685.htm

10-19-04

Woman Who Gained Fame With UFO Narrative Dies

By Kathleen D. Bailey
kbailey.nul

PORTSMOUTH - A Portsmouth woman who helped bring the topic of
life on other planets out of its particular closet in the 1960s
died Sunday of cancer. She was 85.

Although not everyone believed Betty Hill�s story of alien
abduction, it opened a national dialogue on the possibility of
unidentified flying objects. She has been called the Grandmother
of UFO-logy.

As the story has been told, Hill and her husband, Barney, were
driving home from a Canadian vacation in 1961 when they saw a
moving light in the sky. As it moved closer, they saw it was
some kind of aircraft, and Barney saw figures moving inside. The
object moved directly over their car, according to Betty, and
they heard a sound like a tuning fork before they grew drowsy.
When they regained consciousness, they found themselves near
Ashland, N.H., with no memory of the previous two hours.

Through hypnotherapy, the couple remembered being taken on board
the craft and undergoing tests before taking a tour of the
vessel. Betty was shown a "star map," which she later drew. It
matched a cluster of previously unknown stars discovered years
later in the 1970s.

Were they fakes? At the time of the "abduction," an unidentified
flying object was picked up by radar at Pease Air Force Base in
Newington. Shiny circles about the size of a silver dollar
appeared on the surface of the couple�s car trunk. The missing
two hours have never been accounted for. And, perhaps most
importantly, the Hills� separate accounts never wavered, even
under hypnosis, but remained remarkably alike.

The adventure brought media attention to the postal worker and
his social worker wife. They appeared on national television.
John Fuller documented their experience in his book,
"Interrupted Journey." The former Look magazine published a two-
part excerpt of the book in 1966. "Interrupted Journey" became a
TV movie in 1975, with James Earl Jones playing Barney and
Estelle Parsons playing Betty.

After Barney�s death in 1969, Betty continued to travel and
speak on her experiences. After visiting several continents, she
retired from public life in 1991.

Peter Davenport, of Seattle, Wash., director of the National UFO
Sighting Registration Center, said he was saddened to learn of
Hill�s death.

"I consider her and her husband pioneers in the UFO movement,"
he said in a phone interview.

The Hills were "salt-of-the-earth" people, he added, and that
was what made them credible to an otherwise skeptical public.
"They were credible, common-sense people."

And, he said, they were the first to make their experience
public and document it with interviews. "They are to the
abduction phenomenon what Lindbergh was to ocean flying," he
said.

"They were brave enough to step forward and make public the
facts of their alleged interactions with aliens," he said.

Peter Geremia, of Rye, director of the New Hampshire MUFON
(Mutual UFO Network), agreed. "Before the Hills, the UFO
movement was considered the area of a fringe element, kooks," he
said in a phone interview. "It was written up in what we would
now call tabloids. After the Hill abduction and investigation
and research, the �abduction scenario� took on a whole new
credibility. We found the same thing going on worldwide. It
wasn�t just �crazy kooks�."

But Hill remained prominent even as her cause grew more
commonplace. People could relate to her, Geremia said. "She was
so articulate, explaining what was happening. It was like
watching your own grandmother up there, but she had all the
facts and figures."

Hill was a successful advocate for the UFO community precisely
because she was so normal, both Davenport and Geremia
maintained.

"She was a tremendous asset to the state of New Hampshire
because of her work with young children," Geremia said,
remembering Hill�s career as a social worker.

"She was a wonderful gal," Davenport said.







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   Oct > Oct 19

                       Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 09:15:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 10:17:16 -0400
Subject: Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS

>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 06:58:56 -0500
>Subject: Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS

>>From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 10:49:51 -0500 (CDT)
>>Subject: Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS

>>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>>>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 14:41:38 +0100 (BST)
>>>Subject: More On The Closure Of NIDS

>>>Source:

>>>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/2271/

>>>The End of the National Institute for Discovery Science (NIDS)

>><snip>

>>>My acquaintance confided that largely unknown to outsiders, NIDS
>>>fell prey to a variety of internal problems: poor management,
>>>lack of direction, lack of creativity, lack of funding, a
>>>negative company culture, poor hiring decisions, and low morale
>>>fueled by annual layoffs. This was compounded by the elusive
>>>nature of the field of study. In one example, when my
>>>acquaintance, newly hired, asked for direction, the response
>>>given was to "spend a couple of hours a day surfing the web for
>>>items of interest." (!)

>><snip>

>>>It is time for the UFO community to stop speculating on the
>>>research being conducted at the National Institute for Discovery
>>>Science and devise new research projects of their own.

>>That's odd. I presented a list of such projects to the UFO
>>community (and, in fact, NIDS itself) several years ago. I was,
>>of course, ignored.

>>To refresh some memories, here it is again:

><snip>

>I think it's enough that these questions remain, after having
>been repeatedly asked and as _often_ ignored, that is proof
>positive of a duplicitous mainstream, it's unwillingness to deal
>with the potential of the questions rationally provoked by the
>preceding questions, and that we hold too dear to a murky past
>slipping through our fingers as we turn our backs on a future
>approaching even as we escalate our irrational denial of it.



Fellows,

Yeah! And most folks don't want to know the truth because they
are afraid of an uncertain future, and therefore cling to an
imaginary but comforting past.

Best Regards,

Kyle






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               Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO -

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 11:22:36 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 11:03:27 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO -


>From: Brenda Denzler <denzlerb.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 15:46:47 -0400
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 09:39:48 -0400
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO

>>I wonder how Hector Quintanilla would evaluate this sighting. Of
>>course, you all know who Hector was.

>>Don't you?

>Oooh! Me! Me! Me! I know! I know!

>He was the successor to Ruppelt at Project Blue Book!

>(Do I get a gold star on my report card today, Bruce?)

Sorry, Brenda, but you will have to stand in the corner for not
doing your homework. Ruppelt left Blue Book in August of
1953.Quintanilla became Head of BB in 1963. There were a bunch
of other directors between Ruppelt and HQ: Friend Hardin,
Gregory etc. Check out Jerry Clark's fine encyclopedia article
about Project Blue Book.


Stan Friedman








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                    Moonbeam: Canada's Answer to Roswell?

From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows.nul>
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 09:24:05 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 19:44:00 -0400
Subject: Moonbeam: Canada's Answer to Roswell?



The Moonbeam Connection

It predates the Men Without Hats song, but the lyrics are still
appropriate:

                You, you were on a moonbeam
                Me, I was on a star
                Gee everything was blue, blue-green
                Because everything was far

Not that far away, but far enough, is the town of Moonbeam,
Ontario. It's just east of Kapuskasing and about a two-hour
drive northwest of Timmins in the Canadian Shield along Highway
11.

It's also the new Canadian Mecca for UFOs.

The town doesn't come by this reputation lightly. It may, in
fact, be the only place in the world named because of a UFO.
Even Roswell can't claim that.

According to Melanie Bergeron of the Moonbeam Economic
Development Council (MEDC), the town may have been named because
unusual lights have been reported in the area since early in the
1900s. When incorporated in 1922, the name Moonbeam seemed
appropriate for that reason and also because of the late-night
reflections off nearby beautiful, blue-green Remi Lake. The town
itself was named for Moonbeam Lake and Moonbeam Creek, both east
of the townsite near the hamlet of Strickland. Tales are told
that pioneers in the area often saw flashing lights in the skies
and what they called "moonbeams" falling down near the creek.

In 1969, Rene Brunelle, then Ontario Minister of Lands and
Forests, was routinely interviewed by reporters about various
events and issues. During one interview, he was quoted as making
a comment about Neil Armstrong walking on the Moon that year,
pointing out (probably half in jest) that the town of Moonbeam
had a connection to the story attracting attention around the
world.

An area resident sent Brunelle a letter relating the story of
how Moonbeam got its name and describing some of the UFO
sightings reported in the region over the years. He advised:

The initial scientific conclusion which can be drawn is that the
UFO's are glowing electromagnetic plasmas produced by corona
effects, due to faulty conditions on nearby power transmission
lines.

However, he also noted that residents argue that:

... these objects were around before the power lines were built.

They advise that the majority of sightings occur in November
after some snow has fallen. The consensus (for some unknown
reason) is that they will reappear this year on the night of
November 23rd.

They describe the UFOs as flattened domed disks, 15 to 20 feet
in diameter, appearing with a roaring noise and coloured from
red to orange. At these times, radio and television are blanked
out by static. Some residents use welder's Polaroid goggles to
look at the UFO's claiming this gives them a better view of the
"moonship" and its alien occupants.

The original author of the letter has not been located, but the
original document has been discovered in provincial archives and
serves as proof that something may have been seen near Moonbeam
for many years.

On a clear summer night in about 1970, at 11:30 pm, an area
resident had just dropped off a hitchhiker on a road near
Moonbeam when he saw a pale green object hanging in the sky an
estimated 100 feet away and about 1,000 feet in the air. The
egg-shaped object, which he initially thought was an aircraft of
some kind, was about 50 feet long and 20 feet wide. It seemed to
bounce up and down in the sky and was definitely not behaving
like a plane, apparently "defying the laws of gravity."

"I was afraid to drive under it," the witness said. Frightened,
he turned off the engine and watched it in eerie silence. "It
was so unbelievable," he added.

After watching it for about a full minute, the light vanished
abruptly, leaving no trace.

However, that same week, a newspaper account described how some
other people leaving a movie theatre at about 11:30 pm one night
had seen a strange light in the sky as well.

Since then, stories have continued the circulate that odd lights
and craft have been repeatedly seen in the area. One farm in
particular along Moonbeam Creek has a reputation for attracting
UFOs, apparently. Brunelle's informant noted:

The other startling fact is that these ships always land and
take off from the same places. Four such spots along the creek
were show to me, with one being just due west... Had these been
plasmas generated by storms or hydro lines, they would have been
discharged upon touching earth.

Examination of the ground at these places show the rock to be
stained brownish-black with some crumbling as if due to exposure
to intense heat. Geiger counter readings go off the meter scale
in the centre of the areas indicating possible use of controlled
nuclear propulsion.

He added, ominously: "I wonder about the possible effects on the
cattle grazing over this land."

Unfortunately, the records of such tests, studies or scientific
readings cannot be located, so there is no way to verify these
claims. When Bergeron visited the area this year, she found
brownish-black stains on some white stones, without any obvious
explanation, although she was not at a location where objects
had been reported.. She did, however, speak with the land owner,
who did admit that unusual objects and lights had been seen near
the creek in recent years.

The connection with hydro and transmission lines is tenuous at
best, but even here is a claim to fame for Moonbeam, for just a
few kilometres away from the town is a major scientific
installation. An array of radar towers part of a worldwide
network called SuperDARN is based there, consisting of a myriad
of T-shaped antennas designed to monitor solar storms and other
elements of "space weather."

Yet another strange phenomenon in the area is "forest rings,"
not related to "crop circles" but seemingly as mysterious.
Within the boreal forest of dense stands of black spruce,
tamarack and pine standing in moist, peaty ground are thousands
of perfectly round rings. Visible only from the air, the rings
of lighter-coloured growth were discovered when geologists
examined aerial photographs. Some geologists suggested they
signaled diamond-bearing kimberlites (rare igneous, blue-tinged
rocks). One believes the circles could be giant, natural
batteries. A prevailing theory is that they were caused by an
unusual fungus which affected the vegetation as it grew radially
away from a central spore. Most of the rings are less than 300
metres across, but one is more than two kilometres wide. More
than 2,000 have been found in a band that stretches from Lake
Nipigon in Ontario to Matagami, Quebec, including a cluster on
Anticosti Island in the St. Lawrence River.

It has been discovered that the soil within the rings is rich in
carbonates, leading to a theory that electro-chemical processes
in the earth can act as a natural battery in the ground that is
slowly and continually discharging. A mineral such as iron could
act as a negative charge at a circle's centre and comes into
contact with positively-charged carbonate soil that produces
acidic conditions. This in turn eats away at the soil, forming a
ring of organic compounds that suppress tree growth.

With these and other "out of this world" elements, the town has
always had an affinity for space-related themes. In the 1970s,
astronaut Eugene Cernan visited the town on a public relations
tour through Ontario.

In 1990, when nearby towns were erecting monuments and other
edifices that symbolized their community as tourist attractions,
the Moonbeam town council decided that something a bit out of
the ordinary might be preferable. Some people wanted a statue of
something to represent the area's wildlife, but eventually it
was decided to build a "full scale" model of a flying saucer.
For a cost of about $25,000, a fibreglass UFO was constructed,
complete with flashing lights around its rim, and erected on the
edge of town.

Not far away, a hiking trail was developed around Remi Lake,
with guideposts marking the way. It was decided that the trail
needed a mascot to help visitors enjoy their visit, so Kilo the
alien was born. He (or perhaps she) now greets tourists as they
enter the area.

This past summer, a movie production company began shooting a
documentary on Yonge Street, starting at the Toronto waterfront
and heading north into rural Ontario. When they reached
Moonbeam, they were so impressed with the stories of UFOs and
aliens visiting the area that they are now working on a
documentary about Moonbeam itself.

This coincided, oddly enough, with more UFO sightings.  Early in
August 2004, the owner of the Moonbeam Golf Course woke up at
2:30 am to let his dog outside. When he looked out, he saw two
large lights in the sky. He thought at first they were on a
helicopter, but he couldn't hear any sound that would indicate
there was a plane or copter in the area. Thinking they might be
a reflection off nearby lights, he walked away from his house
and found the UFOs did not change position or shape. Frightened,
he went back inside his home and watched the lights hanging
stationary in the sky for another 15 to 20 minutes before
nervously heading back to bed. In the morning, there was no sign
that anything extraterrestrial had visited the site.

When he mentioned his sighting to others, he learned that a few
days earlier, a couple living near the golf course had also seen
a strange light in the sky that hovered for awhile, then
vanished abruptly.

Spurred by this growing accumulation of strange stories and
occurrences, the MEDC decided to further promote the UFO
connection. A website has been developed and a "UFO Hotline" has
been designated for local residents to call and share their
stories. Archives are being scoured for earlier records of UFO
sightings and word has gone out that the MEDC is interested in
hearing from witnesses.

Moonbeam is off the beaten track, but because of this might
certainly be a place for aliens to land without being seen by
too many Earthlings. Skeptics can argue that stories of lights
in the sky and dancing moonbeams are probably just fanciful
notions and figments of people's imaginations. But to those who
have seen the lights and know the stories, Moonbeam could very
well replace Toronto as the center of the universe.

For more information, go to the Moonbeam Community UFO Project
website:

http://www.dravidia.com/moonbeamufo/








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               Re: Can Anyone Identify This Battleship? - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 09:25:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 12:20:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Can Anyone Identify This Battleship? - King


>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:00:21 +0100 (BST)
>Subject: Can Anyone Identify This Battleship?

>Can anyone identify this Battleship?

>http://www.colsweb.com/Marsdam.gif

>It seems to be of modern type class to me.

>Does anyone know of one similar, which is missing?


Hi Colin,

Is there more info on the image... scale, location, etc?

A better question might have been, "Does anyone see anything odd
in this photo?", rather than "can anyone identify this
battleship?". If you had not outlined the subject, I would not
have known to what you were referring.


Regards,

Kyle







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                Re: UFO Expert To Speak At University Event -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 09:35:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 12:23:34 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Expert To Speak At University Event -


>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates" <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 07:59:51 -0500
>Subject: UFO Expert To Speak At University Event

>Source: Asbury Park Press - New Jersey

>http://www.app.com/app/story/0,21625,1083999,00.html

>10-19-04

>UFO Expert To Speak At University Event

>WEST LONG BRANCH: The Monmouth University Student Activities
>Board will offer a lecture by Robert Hastings entitled "UFOs:
>The Hidden History" at 8 p.m. Monday in the Student Center,
>Anacon Hall. The event is free and open to the public.

>Hastings, an independent UFO researcher and lecturer, will
>present a 90-minute slide show illustrating that the U.S.
>government has allegedly covered up the existence of UFOs.
>Hastings will attempt to prove his theory by citing evidence in
>recently declassified government documents.

>Hastings has spoken at more than 500 colleges and universities
>since 1981.

The first time I was on Strange Days... Indeed, years ago,I
talked about a fellow I'd seen on the college circuit, alluded
to above, who'd re-lit the smoldering ashes of my interest in
UFOs. On the show I couldn't recall his name. That man was...
Robert Hastings.

I heard his presentation and listened to the answers he gave to
questions at the end of his talk... Around ten years later I'm
_still_ having a ufological epiphany!

Good work Mr. Hastings. I'm well served. Like a ufological
Johnny Appleseed, you sow (sowed in me, sir!) a rational
interest in UFOs for generations of young persons. Your
contribution is _more_ than merely commendable.


Thank you, Sir!

alienview.nul -:=A6:-
  www.AlienView.net







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   Oct > Oct 19

                       Re: Quintanilla Redux - Shough

From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:52:41 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:02:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Quintanilla Redux - Shough


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 08:00:04 _0500
>Subject: Quintanilla Redux [was: New Mexico Close EncounterWith Green UFO]

>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 15:49:27 -0700
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO

>>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 09:39:48 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO


<snip>



Hello Alfred

I just wanted to say that I thought this was an insightful
perspective. Reading your piece I recognised something I'd felt
myself about Quintanilla, on an intuitive level, without being
able articulate why. Very interesting.


Martin Shough






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                  Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS - Miller

From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:38:31 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:12:02 -0400
Subject: Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS - Miller


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 11:46:22 -0400
>Subject: Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS

>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 14:41:38 +0100 (BST)
>>Subject: More On The Closure Of NIDS

>>Source:

>>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/2271/

<snip>

>The passing of NIDS is really of no surprise, given the
>funding source. As I understand it, Robert Bigalow (who is
>the funding source for NIDS) is heavily involved in the Hotel
>industry,which was severely impacted by 9/11 as fewer people
>were traveling around the world. The fact that NIDS has had to
>change focus and do more with less has been discussed by some
>in the past.

>Robert Bigalow has a long history in working with UFO groups,
>and I believe that he formed NIDS to counter what he perceived
>to be an inability of the three primary UFO groups to provide
>good leadership in seeking a scientific solution to the
>mystery. Unfortunately, the amount of money that he could
>throw into this bottomless pit became limited and it probably
>never really had the independence that it would have needed to
>survive.

>One hopes that that information compiled by NIDS and the
>reports that written and submitted to NIDS remain available
>to UFO researchers. As far as others in ufology pursuing this
>mystery from a scientific perspective, I would hope that
>occurs (but I'm not holding my breath).

Like many others, I had a great respect for NIDS, regardless of
the negative comments in the quoted piece. But I think, like a
lot of other things in ufology, and possibly Life as well, we
took it for granted. When you think about it, it really was
quite fantastic that a man of money was prepared to put some of
it into this subject and to do so in a properly organised and
scientific manner. So can I say a big public thank you to Mr.
Bigelow for his commitment and effort and express my regrets and
sorrow that it was felt neccessary to close it down.

And talking of things unappreciated, can I laud the efforts of
Loy Lawhon of "About" at http://ufos.about.com/. For a
commercial site, banner ads and all, this is really not a bad
effort.


Stuart Miller








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             Re: Can Anyone Identify This Battleship? - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 11:40:36 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:12:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Can Anyone Identify This Battleship? - Balaskas


>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:00:21 +0100 (BST)
>Subject: Can Anyone Identify This Battleship?

>Hi Listers,

>Can anyone identify this Battleship?

>http://www.colsweb.com/Marsdam.gif

>It seems to be of modern type class to me.

>Does anyone know of one similar, which is missing?

Hi Colin!

Personally, I do not see a battleship. Like in Rorschach ink
blot tests, different people see different things.

There are now many more images of what seem to be lakes of
liquid water (possibly brackish water which has a lower freezing
point) on Mars. Below is one of the earliest such lakes that
have been identified. With a little imagination one can see what
looks like a lake freighter in the middle of this Martian lake.

http://palermoproject.com/Mars_Anomalies/MartianLake.html

Unlike the monster size "battleship" in your Mars lake photo
which is many time bigger than the largest ship ever built on
Earth and thus not likely to be an artificial artifact, the
"lake freighter" in this other Mars lake photo could still prove
to be a large Martian ship.

Paul Martin turned over ownership of his fleet of lake
freighters to his son before becoming Canada's Prime Minister.
Maybe you should ask Martin if one of his ships are missing.
 ;o)


Nick Balaskas








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                        Re: Miss Betty Gone? - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 11:55:05 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:25:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Miss Betty Gone? - Boone


This didn't hit me til I read this obit and heard from folks
back home in New England area.

Like folks in the south we show respect by referring to ladies
of honor with an affectionate 'Miss'.

I recall seeing the magazine covers as a kid with 'Miss' Betty
and 'Mr.' Barney on the covers.

Did these two people change history or what?

If you read the obit below you'll notice Miss Betty was well
known before her abduction adventure. If you'll also notice the
article doesn't use the words 'alleged' or 'supposed'. When good
folk say something happened you don't sass back and question
them.

I've got me a feeling that there ain't no debunkers in Heaven
which means the devil gets just what he deserves.


Best,

Greg

-----


Source:

http://www.seacoastonline.com/news/10192004/obituari/43777.htm

Eunice E. Hill

PORTSMOUTH - Eunice Elizabeth Barrett Hill, 85, succumbed to
lung cancer peacefully in her sleep on Oct. 17, 2004. She was
born in Newton on June 28, 1919, the oldest of five children, to
Raymond Barrett and his wife, Florence Rollins Barrett. Her
childhood years on the Barrett family farm in Kingston nurtured
a lifelong love of animals and gardening. After graduating from
Sanborn Seminary in 1937, she attended the University of New
Hampshire in Durham for two years. She left college to marry her
first husband, Robert Stewart, of Kittery, Maine, with whom she
raised three children, Marie, Kenneth and Constance.

After parting from Mr. Stewart she returned to her studies at
UNH, where she majored in social service. She graduated with
honors in 1958 and later participated in graduate studies. She
was a member of the Alpha Kappa Delta sociology honor society.

Professionally, she built a career with the state of New
Hampshire as a child welfare worker, advancing to the rank of
supervisor. She trained foster parents in behavior management
and health care and also worked in the area of adoption. She
took a special interest in her wards and followed many of them
throughout their lives, taking pride in their achievements. When
asked what she would most like to be remembered for, she
responded, "as a damn good social worker."

In 1960, after a six-year courtship, she married the late Barney
Hill of Philadelphia, Pa. Together, they became social
activists, fighting for the cause of civil and human rights and
social justice. They represented the Unitarian-Universalist
Church in Portsmouth as envoys to the United Nations; were
active in the NAACP, where Betty served as assistant secretary
and community coordinator; and were founding members of the
Rockingham County Community Action Program. They campaigned for
Lyndon Johnson and were invited guests at his presidential
inauguration.

They gained worldwide notoriety after a UFO encounter in New
Hampshire's White Mountains on Sept. 19, 1961. Their case is
recognized as the first publicized and best-documented UFO
abduction in the United States.

In 1995, she published the book, A Common-Sense Approach to
UFOs. Although she officially retired from the UFO field in
1991, occasionally she acquiesced to a symposium presentation or
television interview. In 2002 she was the honored speaker at the
Mutual UFO Network's annual symposium in Rochester, N.Y. More
recently she, her daughter and her niece were filmed for a
presentation on the History Channel.

Her husband, Barney Hill, and her daughter Rose Marie Stewart
Norton of York, Maine, predeceased her. She was also predeceased
by her brother, Robert Barrett.

She leaves her daughter and loving caretaker Constance Jean
Stewart Zukowski and her husband, Paul, of North Little Rock,
Ark.; and her son, Kenneth James Stewart of San Jose, Calif.
Also, she leaves her niece and loving caretaker, Kathleen
Florence Miller Marden and her husband, Charles Francis, of
Stratham; her grandchildren, Tamera Starratt Miller and her
husband, Steve, of Cabot, Ark., Charles Calvin Starratt and his
wife, Sylvia, of Maumell, Ark., and Susan Starratt Downs and her
husband, Timothy, of West Farmington, Ohio. She also leaves her
sister-in-law, Velva, of Atkinson; her sisters, June Barrett
Lazos and her husband, Alexander, of Haverhill, Mass., Janet
Barrett Miller of Kingston, and Norma Barrett Sears Coats and
her husband, Ward, of Petersburg, Tenn.; and several
grandchildren, great-grandchildren, nieces, nephews and
grandnieces and grandnephews.

Funeral arrangements are being handled by Brewitt Funeral Home.

HILL - Eunice Elizabeth Hill, 85, of Portsmouth, died Sunday,
Oct. 17, 2004, following an illness. Calling hours will be held
from 2 to 4 p.m. and 6 to 8 p.m. on Wednesday, Oct. 20, 2004, at
Brewitt Funeral Home, 14 Pine St. in Exeter. A funeral service
will be held at 10 a.m. on Thursday, Oct. 21, 2004, at Brewitt
Funeral Home. A private burial will take place at Greenwood
Cemetery in Kingston.








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   Oct > Oct 19

                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 42

From: John Hayes <John.nul>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 19:33:52 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:30:26 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 42


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan.nul>
==========================

UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 9, Number 42
October 20, 2004
Editor: Joseph Trainor


CYLINDRICAL RED UFO SEEN OVER TRINIDAD

"An unidentified flying object (UFO) or a divine sign were just
two of the explanations residents of South Trinidad were
discussing last night (Thursday, October 7, 2004) speculating
after a mysterious red beam of light appeared in the sky."
(Editor's Note: Trinidad is a large island in the Caribbean Sea
just north of South America.) "The vertical red line, according
to some eyewitnesses, was noticed shortly after nightfall.

Residents in Barrackpore and Penal reported the sighting to the
Express (newspaper)."

"One caller from Scotts Road, Penal, was convinced that
'something red was falling from the sky.'" "Other reports
suggested that the 'light' appeared to be suspended and remained
in a particular position, although it appeared to be wavering in
intensity at times."

"As word of 'the light' spread, many residents came out of their
houses to stare up into the cloudy night sky, hoping to see it."

"The image disappeared shortly after 7 p.m." (See the Trinidad
and Tobago Express for October 8, 2004, "Strange red light in
sky." Many thanks to Jim Hickman, executive director of Skywatch
International for this newspaper article.)


THREE UFOs SIGHTED IN FRING, NORFOLK, UK

On Friday, September 24, 2004, at 11:30 p.m., N. Davies
reported, "At Fring, northwest Norfolk, a friend and I saw a
very large triangular shape made up of three white lights
travelling across the sky. I could not say what height they
were, but they almost looked as if they were in space."

"They were heading south across The Wash, the northwest Norfolk
coastline. The triangle kept the shape for a couple of minutes,
and then one of the lights accelerated ahead without breaking
formation. After about three minutes of perfect visibility, the
first light faded, and when the two other lights behind reached
the same spot in the sky, they faded, too."

"There were no clouds blocking my view at this point," he
reported, adding that the objects were "very possibly in space."
(Email Form Report)


HIGH-FLYING UFO SPOTTED IN NORTH PORT, FLORIDA

On Tuesday, October 12, 2004, at 1:26 a.m., eyewitness John Cox
reported, "While awaiting a satellite pass, under CAVU (Ceiling
and Visibility Unlimited--J.T.) conditions, I observed a
satellite-looking object approching from the south-southwest,
bearing 150 degrees, at an elevation of about 20 degrees above
the horizon.

Knowing the ISS (International Space Station--J.C.) to be on the
opposite side of Earth at the time, I immediately began detailed
observation of the object as it was exhibiting behavior unlike a
'normal' satellite."

"The object was probably cylindrical or rectangular.

There was a distinct orange-yellow glow about the center object,
similar to that of a High Pressure Sodium Vapor street lamp in
the fog. The object and the surrounding glow encompassed an area
of the sky slightly smaller than a U.S. dime (10-cent coin--
J.T.) at arm's length. It passed noiselessly, left no after-
image, trail or smoke. It did not pulse, blink or strobe, and
traveled across the sky not unlike a satellite--only faster."

"The object appeared to this experience satellite- watcher to be
in LEO (low Earth orbit--J.T.) or higher, either generating a
re-entry plasma sheath or else skimming the (atmosphere's)
tropopause."

North Port, Fla. (population 22,797) is on Highway 41 about 35
miles (56 kilometers) south of Sarasota. (Email Form Report)


MYSTERY BOOM RATTLES MANCHESTER, UK

"A mystery explosion rocked Greater Manchester today,"
Wednesday, October 13, 2004.

"Police and fire services received dozens of calls from the
public about the blast, which happened at 7:30 a.m."

"But, despite efforts by both services to locate the source,
nothing was found."

"Fire services spokesman Ian Bailey said: 'We had people calling
from a wide area--Chorlton, Fuxton, Farnworth and Walkden,
saying they had heard a large explosion. But we have not
responded to any incident which could explain the blast. Some of
the control room officers at our headquarters in Pendlebury also
heard it.'"

"A police spokesman said: 'We have not been able to find any
explanation, and there is no problem with high explosives.'"

The British Geological Society was also contacted. "Though some
of their earthquake sensors were triggered, it said that it
might have been too shallow to register on their instruments."

"Another possibility is that the blast could have come from old
mine workings. There are abandoned shafts" not far from
Manchester "and at Agecroft, where a pit (mine) closed at the
beginning of the 1990s.

"Lynn Hall of Sherwood Drive, Pendlebury, said: 'At 7:25 this
morning, I was locking the door of my house, and my husband,
Carl, was waiting for me to come out. He said: 'Did you hear the
loud bang?' He kept mentioning it because it was so loud.'"

"One caller to a radio station has claimed that she saw
something falling from the sky, but fire brigade spokesman Paul
Duggan said: 'If it had been a meteorite, we could have expected
to have found a crater--which we haven't--when it is in the
middle of a golf course or field.'" (See Manchester Online for
October 13, 2004, "Riddle as massive blast rocks houses." Many
thanks to Robert Fischer for this news story.)


MOTHMAN STAR INJURED IN RIDING ACCIDENT

Hollywood film actor Richard Gere, who starred in the 2002
feature film The Mothman Prophecies, suffered an injury last
week as a result of a horseback riding incident on his estate in
Westchester County, N.Y. (population 923,500).

Gere, 55, was the latest in a long line of entertainment
industry people involved in the making of The Mothman Prophecies
to have been killed or injured. The unusually high incidence of
mortality has some Fortean researchers speculating about "the
Mothman Curse." Gere turned up at the New York City premiere of
his new film, Shall We Dance? with his left wrist in a cast and
was accompanied by his wife, Carey Lowell. Gere's co- star,
actress Jennifer Lopez, also attended the premiere, wearing a
silver-and-white Michael Kors evening gown. The horse-riding
accident took place at Gere's estate in Westchester. "The actor
was not angry at his horse, which stayed near his master while
he was unconscious on the ground. Gere fell to the ground as a
result of a loose saddle. The horse's foot got caught in the
strap, causing it to buck."

Upon regaining consciousness, Gere "had to endure a painful walk
back to his house."

Curiously, the mishap took place the same weekend that actor
Christopher Reeve, 52, died suddenly of heart failure. Reeve,
who portrayed Superman in four films between 1978 and 1986, was
paralyzed in 1995 as a result of a spinal injury he sustained
after falling from his horse.

Gere was the first of the leading actors in The Mothman
Prophecies to sustain injury since the release of the film in
2002. In the movie, Gere portrays John Klein, a reporter for the
Washington Post, who is mysteriously drawn to Point Pleasant,
West Virginia after his wife dies and encounters all sorts of
strange Fortean phenomena, seemingly controlled by the weird
entity called Mothman. The actor first achieved widespread
recognition for his work in the 1982 film, An Officer and A
Gentleman. More recently, he starred in the Oscar-winning movie,
Chicago, which was released in January 2003. (See the magazine
Star for October 25, 2004, page 3.)


PENTAGON TO INTRODUCE SPY BLIMPS IN THE USA

"Army officials turned to towers and unmanned blimps equipped
with networked sensors to help protect troops in Iraq and
Afghanistan, senior officials said this week." "The towers and
unmanned blimps, called aerostats, worked so well at detecting
and identifying enemy forces and objects that Defense Department
officials want to buy more of them."

"'We couldn't have gotten the funding if it wasn't successful,'
said Brig. Gen. Jeffrey Sorenson, director of Army Systems
Management at the Office of the Assistant Secretary of the Army
for Acquisition, Logistics and Technology."

"Sorenson spoke (Thursday) October 7 (2004) at a Pentagon media
briefing."

"Army officials obtained $38 million in Fiscal 2004 for 22
towers and aerostats for surveillance use in Iraq and
Afghanistan. The 84-foot (25-meter) towers 15-meter (50-foot)
aerostats used by the Rapid Aerostat Initial Deployment (RAID)
system to monitor the perimeters of the service's bases there,
said Col. Kurt Heine, project manager of the Joint Land Attack
Cruise Missile Defense Elevated Netted Sensor" program, which
"oversees the force protection effort."

"The RAID system consists of towers, aerostats, sensors and an
operations center. The towers and aerostats carry an electro-
optical and infrared sensor that detects enemy forces and
objects at day or night. The sensor obtains the images, then
transmits them via a radio frequency to an operations center,
which sends them into a network of warfighters and analysts for
review and action, Heine said."

"The towers and aerostats provide soldiers and commanders with a
more precise capability than unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) and
manned aircraft because they do not require human operators,
need less maintenance and fly lower. But they do not stand or
fly as high as aircraft, Sorenson and Heine said."

"They said towers, aerostats, UAVs, blimps and aircraft each
possess technology advantages and disadvantages. They said they
give commanders options for any force protection mission."

"Army officials experimented with a manned blimp equipped with
the RAID system" two weeks ago "over Washington D.C. for a
homeland defense mission. They spent $500,000 to lease a blimp
and an aircrew that conducted a 24-hour flight over the Pentagon
for security and also supported a joint-force perimeter mission,
Sorenson and Heine said."

Although the "spy blimp" is reportedly now in Huntsville,
Alabama for further flight tests, UFO Roundup has received
reports from elsewhere in the USA about mysterious blimp flights
overhead.

On Friday, October 8, 2004, high school students in the Rumford
section of East Providence, R.I. (population 48,638) claimed to
have seen "a mysterious white blimp" flying on either side of
the Massachusetts-Rhode Island state line.

"That was all the kids were talking about," said teacher P.D.,
"They described it as a large, low-flying white blimp with no
markings except a vertical red stripe at the rear of the tail
(empennage--J.T.). They saw it in Seekonk, North Seekonk,
Attleboro Falls, Plainville and West Wrentham in Massachusetts,
and in Rumford and Six Corners (sections of East Providence--
J.T.), Barrington and Tiverton in Rhode Island. Some thought it
had something to do with the (New England) Patriots or the
(Boston) Red Sox. But most didn't know what it was." (Editor's
Note: The same region of southern New England reported several
black helicopter sightings during the summers of 2002 and 2003.)

On Thursday, October 14, 2004, around 9 p.m., eyewitnesses on
the beach in Geneva State Park, 11 miles (19 kilometers) west-
southwest of Ashtabula, Ohio, (population 20,962) spotted "two
or three white blimps over Lake Erie, heading east and moving
very slowly." The witnesses said they had the mysterious objects
in view for three to four minutes.

(Editor's Note: Ashtabula is one of the most notorious UFO
hotspots in Ohio.) (See the Baltimore Sun for October 8, 2004,
"Blimps return to guard troops." The Rhode Island and Ohio
sightings were email reports.)

(Editor's Comment: This is the most Orwellian scheme of the New
World Order yet--using spy blimps to perform 24/7 surveillance
of the USA's civilian population.)

Well, that's it for this week. Join us in seven days for more
UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the planet Earth,
brought to you by "the paper that goes home- -UFO Roundup." See
you next time!

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2004 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved. Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup on
their Web sites or in news groups provided that they credit the
newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in
which the item first appeared.

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan.nul> or use
the Sighting Report Form at:

http://www.ufoinfo.com/submit/sightings.shtml

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Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster.nul>

UFOINFO: http://www.ufoinfo.com

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UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine
plus archives of Humanoid Sighting Reports (Albert
Rosales), Filer's Files, Oz Files, UFO News UK.
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   Oct > Oct 19

              Re: redible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof -

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 12:32:17 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:37:27 -0400
Subject: Re: redible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof -


>Source: The Triangle - Drexel University Student Newspaper
>        Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

>http://www.thetriangle.org/news/2004/10/08/SciTech/Credible.Ufo.Witnesses.N=
ot.Sufficient.Proof-747233.shtml

>10-08-04

Good Day Fellow Listerions,

My response to young Mr. Sakulich:

Dear Mr. Sakulich,

Once again I see you have put pen to paper concerning the UFO
phenomenon, this time in particular "abductees," and once again
although being a "senior majoring in materials science and
engineering," you have me pondering the quality of the teachings
you are receiving, furthermore; since you=92ve been given the
privilege of writing in your student newspaper, one would hope,
particularly "because you are a product of academia," and your
voice is heard across the internet, in association with "The
Triangle," that you would take the time to research your subject
matter thoroughly.

I realize "Materials Science" is the focus point for the
study/research of various materials, i.e., metals, ceramics,
electronic materials; also this involves chemistry, physics, and
electronics. That said, along with the fact that you are a
senior, one would assume that you would have the basic grasp of
the scientific method as a whole, however; this is the second
time, (that I=92m aware of) that you have provided evidence to the
contrary, moreover; one could also imagine, that because your
articles appear in "The Triangle," you would have a little
"journalistic credo" in regards to "accurate data" you present;
again your writings suggest just the opposite.

For example you wrote:

"In the modern era, there are literally thousands of people who
claim to have been abducted by UFOs."(I=92ll assume by "modern
era" you mean from the early 60=92s up to date).

A Roper poll indicated the number to be in the millions, and
that is just for this country. Communion author Whitley Strieber
has stated that he has received 250,000 letters describing alien
abductions=97the point being is that the "alien abduction
phenomenon" is much larger then you indicate, and is worldwide.

In your second paragraph you wrote: "Though they would have you
believe otherwise, it is easy to pinpoint the beginning of the
abductee craze: Betty Hill...." I would certainly like to
know who "they" are! Moreover, Betty and her husband Barney Hill
were not the first account of "alien abduction". You continue by
writing, "She and her husband were driving down a long, dark
road and were "abducted". They described small, gray aliens with
heads shaped like light bulbs, the now common staple of pop
culture."

As what we see is becoming routine with you, you=92ve once again
got your facts wrong! First, the Hills were coming home from a
vacation in Niagra Falls, driving down Route 3, south of
Lancaster, N.H; second, their description of the aliens was
"They look more like us, like actual people..." not  "with
heads shaped like light bulbs"

In your third paragraph you wrote: "Later, it was learned that
Betty Hill had a previous interest in UFOs and that the whole
thing was a product of her overactive imagination."

An "overactive imagination" is certainly what comes to mind when
reading your article. Betty Hill was a very active and respected
member of her community. She has an academic background, and was
a supervisor in the New Hampshire Welfare Department.

In addition to her experience being recounted under hypnosis,
she also passed a lie detector test given to her by famed
attorney, "F. Lee Bailey."

Also in your third paragraph you wrote: "In America, the aliens
that abduct people are usually the small, evil gray folks. In
Europe and elsewhere, they are almost universally reported as
tall, blond and benign. Evidence of two alien races vying for
our attention or subtle indicator of cultural bias of made-up
stories? If you guessed #1, you guessed wrong."

Again, one has to wonder which tabloid you get "your facts"
from. Although "grays" have been reported in many abduction/UFO
cases, "aliens" have had varied descriptions, and geography
doesn=92t play a part in it.

For example:

Floyd Dillon (1928 Yakima Washington) described the occupant
in his encounter as "a man dressed in a dark blue uniform who
could pass as an Italian in this world."

The eldest of two brothers (Amos [near Colusa Ca. 1974-1977])
who is one of the few living members of the Cortina Indian tribe
described "the alien" in his encounter as "a humanoid with long
hair and a large nose."

Antonio Villas Boas (1957 Brazil) described his abductors in
uniform with helmets; he said they were his height with their
helmets on.

Hilda Musch, a leading Dutch hypnotherapist reports that the
group of abductees she has worked with (80 people) affirms
similar descriptions as that of their American counterparts,
i.e., small gray beings.

Students at the Ariel school in Ruwa, Zimbabwe described the
being in their encounter as, "a small man, about one meter in
height, with a scrawny neck, long black hair, and huge eyes. "

The list goes on and on, but the point is that the descriptions
on a worldwide basis, of aliens, whether they be of a "close
encounter," or an "abduction" are as varied as the descriptions
of the craft themselves.

In your fourth paragraph you wrote: "I would love nothing more
than to describe in detail the hundreds of cases I've read about
and debunk them one by one as the products of hoaxes, practical
jokes, hallucinations or cries for attention; however, it may be
better to speak of them generally."

Based on your previous consistent erroneous statements of facts
regarding the UFO phenomenon, and continuing with "abductee
occurrences," I find it hard to believe you have read "hundreds
of cases" about alien abduction!

Also in your fourth paragraph you stated:" UFOs exist. They
exist as strange atmospheric phenomena, classified aircraft,
weather balloons or rare weather patters. A person who sees a
UFO is probably telling the truth, and the event might have
occurred."

What you have described are "IFOs," not something that defies
"conventional explanation."

You ended that paragraph by writing, "A person who claims to
have been abducted by aliens is lying, hallucinating, or on the
receiving end of a bad joke. There are no other options.

The ignorance that permeates through that statement has me
baffled that you have attended any classes that involve science
at all.

In your fifth paragraph you wrote: "Generally, it starts like
this: When alone somewhere, be it driving down a dark and lonely
road or sleeping alone in a backwoods home, the abductee senses
something is wrong. This is called the Oz Factor. Animals act
irregularly, senses are dulled or sharpened, people do things
they wouldn't do otherwise, time slips by. Things just take on a
dream-like quality."

The term "Oz Factor" was borne by Jenny Randles, and her
definition as stated in "The Little Giant Encyclopedia of UFOs"
is as follows:

A Set of symptoms described by close encounter witnesses that
suggest they have entered an altered state of consciousness.
Includes distortion to the passage of time and apparent
disappearance of ambient sounds, such as bird songs.

The "Oz Factor" (by definition) attributes nothing to animal
behavior, or what someone may or may not do, or sense of
"wrong." It merely states there is a perceived state of altered
consciousness based on the "distortion of the passage of time,
as well as the disappearance of 'ambient sounds', using bird
songs as an example." Moreover, although there have been
abductions reported in remote areas, there have been reports
from downtown Manhattan as well. There have been reports of
people taken from apartment buildings in addition to being taken
from groups. Finally, most abductees don=92t "sense anything
wrong" until after the event, as most don=92t initially "remember"
the event.

In your sixth, seventh and eighth paragraphs which you continue
your generalization of the abduction experience and validate
your narrow view of the subject.

In your ninth paragraph you wrote: "It's interesting to note
that the abductee may have a long record of reporting ghosts,
levitating, being a psychic or other paranormal phenomena."

Since you haven=92t given any examples, I=92ll offer some: In the
Boas, Hill and Walton cases=97three very prominent accounts=97there
weren=92t any previous "paranormal events" reported such as those
you=92ve mentioned, (with the exception of UFO reports before,
during and or after the event). Moreover, abductees come from
all walks of life=97they=92re accountants, lawyers, doctors etc.

In your tenth paragraph you wrote: These "cases" all hinge on
one basic thing: the credibility of the abductee. If you read
books on UFOs, you'll notice that every story begins with "a
credible witness said that..." or "there's no reason not to
believe this person."

Based on the balderdash that oozes from your pen one has to
question the source of "your information." Methinks it
originates close to the checkout counter at your local market.
Please name "one" book that has a story in it that begins with
the afore mentioned statements.

In your thirteenth paragraph, you wrote: "Almost all tales of
abduction hinge on how credible the witness is. They have little
evidence if any, so it's basically their word."

Once again you are incorrect; there have been UFO reports
associated with abductions, physical trace evidence of a craft,
physical trace evidence on and in the bodies of the abductees,
multiple eyewitnesses, medical conditions, e.g., PTSS, lie
detector tests, hypnosis.

The rest of your article unfortunately continues in the same
manner filled with generalizations and innuendo with very little
basis in fact. I=92m afraid your articles, at least in regards to
Ufology, including the "abduction phenomenon," have only offered
evidence of your ignorance on these subjects; your laziness,
inability or aversion to doing proper research; it further
indicates your insularity. Finally it brings question to your
interest in anything to do with science, and if in fact you=92ve
absorbed any of what you=92ve been studying. My advice is to seek
a career in politics =97 you=92re a natural for it!


Frank Warren
Frank-warren.nul









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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Oct > Oct 19

                      Re: Quintanilla Redux - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:46:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 18:10:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Quintanilla Redux - Lehmberg


>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:52:41 +0100
>Subject: Re: Quintanilla Redux

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 08:00:04 _0500
>>Subject: Quintanilla Redux [was: New Mexico Close EncounterWith Green UFO]

<snip>

>I just wanted to say that I thought this was an insightful
>perspective. Reading your piece I recognised something I'd felt
>myself about Quintanilla, on an intuitive level, without being
>able articulate why. Very interesting.

Thank you, Sir. A related subject concerns the recent FLIR
brouhaha in Campeche and the attitude regarding Mexican
professional persons and the less than competent execution of
their duties... missing the obvious after many months of similar
experience... too abundant credulity of their highest military
authorities and government functionaries... etc... with regard
to UFOs.

"...Just like a buncha taco-benders and superstitious
Indians...eh?" - to put a fine point on it, and with all respect
(and apologies) to my bravely competent Mexican friends to the
South. Bigotry exists for all our efforts to stamp it out,
thrives in the expanding gulf between the haves and the
have-nots, and provides a consoling if fraudulant _buffer_ to
protect privileged sensibilities evolved in the denial of the
patent realities behind the generation of those bigotries. UFOs
won't be immune to that.

Thanks again.

alienview.nul -:=A6:-
  www.AlienView.net







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   Oct > Oct 19

              Re: Can Anyone Identify This Battleship? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:01:52 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 18:11:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Can Anyone Identify This Battleship? - Hatch


>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:00:21 +0100 (BST)
>Subject: Can Anyone Identify This Battleship?

>Can anyone identify this Battleship?

>http://www.colsweb.com/Marsdam.gif ( 96 KB approx )

>It seems to be of modern type class to me.
>Does anyone know of one similar, which is missing?

>Kind regards,

>Col

The blue line looks more like a huge distorted coffin shape to
me.  Apart from that, I see what looks like rough irregular rim
of a crater or other natural features.

- Larry







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                Re: Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:08:29 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 18:13:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 12:32:17 -0700
>Subject: Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof

<snip>

>My response to young Mr. Sakulich:

>Dear Mr. Sakulich,

<snip>

>My advice is to seek a career in politics =97 you=92re a natural for it!

>Frank Warren
>Frank-warren.nul

Kudos, Frank!!!

And I could recommend a political party that seemingly was
_made_ for a guy like Sakulich. When a "true believer" like him
runs up against the "reality-based" community, he starts to look
like an eccentric, or worse, a candidate. I imagine he also
believes that global warming is a hoax, and that Saddam Hussein
instigated 9/11.

It used to be the college students who fomented rage against the
machine. Poor Aaron heralds the new paradigm...student as pundit
for the machine. Events like Tiananmen Square and Kent State
would never happen with guys like this. Progress?

Odd though, his dismissive manner reminds me so much of Nancy
Lieder that I get this odd involuntary lip-curl...ick.

My suspicion? He's an alien disinformation agent, probably with
a persecution complex. <joking>

Get help Aaron, there's still time to undo the harm that has
befallen you... take a real science course quick, and pay
attention! <not joking>








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                   Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:15:38 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 18:15:51 -0400
Subject: Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS - Hall


>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:38:31 +0100 (BST)
>Subject: Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS

>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 11:46:22 -0400
>>Subject: Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS

>>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>>>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 14:41:38 +0100 (BST)
>>>Subject: More On The Closure Of NIDS

>>The passing of NIDS is really of no surprise, given the
>>funding source. As I understand it, Robert Bigalow (who is
>>the funding source for NIDS) is heavily involved in the Hotel
>>industry,which was severely impacted by 9/11 as fewer people
>>were traveling around the world. The fact that NIDS has had to
>>change focus and do more with less has been discussed by some
>>in the past.

>>Robert Bigalow has a long history in working with UFO groups,
>>and I believe that he formed NIDS to counter what he perceived
>>to be an inability of the three primary UFO groups to provide
>>good leadership in seeking a scientific solution to the
>>mystery. Unfortunately, the amount of money that he could
>>throw into this bottomless pit became limited and it probably
>>never really had the independence that it would have needed to
>>survive.

<snip>

>Like many others, I had a great respect for NIDS, regardless of
>the negative comments in the quoted piece. But I think, like a
>lot of other things in ufology, and possibly Life as well, we
>took it for granted. When you think about it, it really was
>quite fantastic that a man of money was prepared to put some of
>it into this subject and to do so in a properly organised and
>scientific manner. So can I say a big public thank you to Mr.
>Bigelow for his commitment and effort and express my regrets and
>sorrow that it was felt neccessary to close it down.

<snip>

Stuart,

Sure, you can exercise free speech and say it (thank you to
Bigelow), but the truth of the matter is that the woman who
characterized NIDS on this thread had it exactly right. I was
one of those in on the original Bigelow-UFOs thing even before
NIDS came along, and he was basically the problem. Many good
people tried to work with him or for him, and the typical result
was very shoddy treatment, being lied to, manipulated, and laid
off without decent notice or pay.

In the interest of full disclosure, I personally clashed with
Bigelow and incurred his hatred when I walked out of a key
meeting in disgust at his arbitrariness and unfair treatment of
people. He hates my guts, and - well - I consider him to be a
nouveau riche, manipulative egomaniac who thinks he knows more
than anyone else simply because he became wealthy buying and
selling real estate.


 - Dick








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                         Re: Miss Betty Gone? - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:19:24 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 18:16:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Miss Betty Gone? - Hall


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 11:55:05 EDT
>Subject: Miss Betty Gone?

>This didn't hit me til I read this obit and heard from folks
>back home in New England area.

>Like folks in the south we show respect by referring to ladies
>of honor with an affectionate 'Miss'.

>I recall seeing the magazine covers as a kid with 'Miss' Betty
>and 'Mr.' Barney on the covers.

>Did these two people change history or what?

>If you read the obit below you'll notice Miss Betty was well
>known before her abduction adventure. If you'll also notice the
>article doesn't use the words 'alleged' or 'supposed'. When good
>folk say something happened you don't sass back and question
>them.

>I've got me a feeling that there ain't no debunkers in Heaven
>which means the devil gets just what he deserves.

>Best,

>Greg

Greg,

Don't you mean `Miz?' My father was from Georgia and my mother
from Virginia. I served in the Air Force in Texas and
Mississippi, and went to college in Louisiana.


 - Dick








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                   Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 18:30:32 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 18:44:17 -0400
Subject: Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS - Boone


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:15:38 +0000
>Subject: Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS

>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:38:31 +0100 (BST)
>>Subject: Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS

<snip>

>Stuart,

>Sure, you can exercise free speech and say it (thank you to
>Bigelow), but the truth of the matter is that the woman who
>characterized NIDS on this thread had it exactly right. I was
>one of those in on the original Bigelow-UFOs thing even before
>NIDS came along, and he was basically the problem. Many good
>people tried to work with him or for him, and the typical result
>was very shoddy treatment, being lied to, manipulated, and laid
>off without decent notice or pay.

>In the interest of full disclosure, I personally clashed with
>Bigelow and incurred his hatred when I walked out of a key
>meeting in disgust at his arbitrariness and unfair treatment of
>people. He hates my guts, and - well - I consider him to be a
>nouveau riche, manipulative egomaniac who thinks he knows more
>than anyone else simply because he became wealthy buying and
>selling real estate.

I don't know what went on at NIDS. All I can say is after
reading this thread it sounds like typical 'GIA: Government In
Action'.


Best,

Greg








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                         Re: Miss Betty Gone? - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:45:41 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 06:51:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Miss Betty Gone? - King


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 11:55:05 EDT
>Subject: Miss Betty Gone?

>This didn't hit me til I read this obit and heard from folks
>back home in New England area.

>Like folks in the south we show respect by referring to ladies
>of honor with an affectionate 'Miss'.

>I recall seeing the magazine covers as a kid with 'Miss' Betty
>and 'Mr.' Barney on the covers.

>Did these two people change history or what?

>If you read the obit below you'll notice Miss Betty was well
>known before her abduction adventure. If you'll also notice the
>article doesn't use the words 'alleged' or 'supposed'. When good
>folk say something happened you don't sass back and question
>them.

>I've got me a feeling that there ain't no debunkers in Heaven
>which means the devil gets just what he deserves.

<snip>

Hi Greg,

As a poor Southern boy myself... born in Dallas and raised in
Houston... I too grew up calling the ladies Miss and the men Mr.

Considering the facts of her life, Miss Betty's calmly
intelligent and reassuringly rational demeanor should be a wake
up call for anyone who really thinks that this field is
nonsense.

She had dignity and courage in a difficult time, and no argument
has ever succeeded in refuting her simple, yet remarkable story.
She never made more of it than there was, and there was plenty.

I am sure too, that my affection for Estelle Parsons is in large
part due to her portrayal of Miss Betty back in 1975. The same
goes for James Earl Jones, whose desire to portray Mr. Barney
led to the film. That they so closely resembled the Hills really
brought the story home to me, a lad of 15 at the time. It was
one of the stories that got me hooked on UFOs, along with a few
books. *smile*

Even Alfred's Klasskurtzians left Miss Betty pretty much alone.
I wonder what Aaron Sakulich thinks of her story?

Best Regards, and Godspeed to Betty Hill,


Kyle








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                   Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 23:04:13 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 06:52:56 -0400
Subject: Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS - Hall


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 18:30:32 EDT
>Subject: Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:15:38 +0000
>>Subject: Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS

>>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:38:31 +0100 (BST)
>>>Subject: Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS

><snip>

>>Stuart,

>>Sure, you can exercise free speech and say it (thank you to
>>Bigelow), but the truth of the matter is that the woman who
>>characterized NIDS on this thread had it exactly right. I was
>>one of those in on the original Bigelow-UFOs thing even before
>>NIDS came along, and he was basically the problem. Many good
>>people tried to work with him or for him, and the typical result
>>was very shoddy treatment, being lied to, manipulated, and laid
>>off without decent notice or pay.

>>In the interest of full disclosure, I personally clashed with
>>Bigelow and incurred his hatred when I walked out of a key
>>meeting in disgust at his arbitrariness and unfair treatment of
>>people. He hates my guts, and - well - I consider him to be a
>>nouveau riche, manipulative egomaniac who thinks he knows more
>>than anyone else simply because he became wealthy buying and
>>selling real estate.

>I don't know what went on at NIDS. All I can say is after
>reading this thread it sounds like typical 'GIA: Government In
>Action'.

Greg,

I don't understand your point here at all. Government has/had
nothing to do with Bigelow or NIDS, unless you believe the
charges that it was some kind of disinformatioin effoirt - which
I don't. It's much simpler than that.


 - Dick








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   Oct > Oct 20

             Re: Can Anyone Identify This Battleship? - LeClair

From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 19:28:31 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 06:54:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Can Anyone Identify This Battleship? - LeClair


>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:00:21 +0100 (BST)
>Subject: Can Anyone Identify This Battleship?

>Hi Listers,

>Can anyone identify this Battleship?

>http://www.colsweb.com/Marsdam.gif

>( 96 KB approx )

>It seems to be of modern type class to me.
>
>Does anyone know of one similar, which is missing?


It's a giant kazoo.








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                         Re: Miss Betty Gone? - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 19:04:28 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 06:56:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Miss Betty Gone? - King


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:19:24 +0000
>Subject: Re: Miss Betty Gone?

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 11:55:05 EDT
>>Subject: Miss Betty Gone?

<snip>

>Don't you mean `Miz?' My father was from Georgia and my mother
>from Virginia. I served in the Air Force in Texas and
>Mississippi, and went to college in Louisiana.


Hi Dick, and Greg,

I don't think I ever heard the term "Miz" until Women's Lib...
sometime in the late 60s or early 70s. I heard an older black
teacher say something like "Mizrez" once, but I figured it was a
"black thing". Of course, she was "colored" back then. :)

If I was addressing a married woman for the first time, I was
taught to say "Missus so and so" (with the last name). But if it
was a woman our family knew, it was Miss Irene, or Miss Anne, or
Miss Betty, and the husband was Mister Bob or Mister Harold. And
of course they were all ma'ams and sirs otherwise.

Looking back, it seems very Southern (read dubiously formal).
Unfortunately, I never knew a "Colonel", but both my ex-wives'
families had Southern Colonels in the family. I was never sure
if it really meant anything or not. No one could say for sure.

Totally unrelated, but List-ish, all my older family members
were staunch non-UFO believers except my mother's father. He was
a voracious reader of science fiction, and we talked about UFOs
a lot during summer vacations I spent with him in Dallas.


Best Regards,

Kyle








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                   Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 19:29:21 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 06:57:28 -0400
Subject: Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS - King


>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:38:31 +0100 (BST)
>Subject: Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS

>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 11:46:22 -0400
>>Subject: Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS

>>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>>>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 14:41:38 +0100 (BST)
>>>Subject: More On The Closure Of NIDS

>>>Source:

>>>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/2271/

<snip>

>And talking of things unappreciated, can I laud the efforts of
>Loy Lawhon of "About" at http://ufos.about.com/. For a
>commercial site, banner ads and all, this is really not a bad
>effort.


Spot on, Mr. Miller! I have spent a good deal of time perusing
the UFO offerings at about.com. I was impressed by the quantity
as much as the quality, and have answered a few questions by
sifting through the resource they provide. For a poor guy, they
have a wealth of fairly comprehensive information... for free!

Double kudos to Mr. Lawhon!


Best,

Kyle







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                     Little Green Men Adore Ontario Town

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 07:01:06 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 07:01:06 -0400
Subject: Little Green Men Adore Ontario Town




Source: The Winnipeg Sun

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/WinnipegSun/News/2004/10/20/676900.html

10-20-04

Little Green Men Adore Ontario Town
Seeks status as UFO capital

By Dean Pritchard,
Staff Reporter


The small town of Moonbeam, Ontario, may want to change its name
to Roswell North as it gears up a tourism campaign to become the
UFO capital of Canada. The town of 1,300, about 330 kilometres
northwest of Sudbury, launched a website last week where local
residents can share stories of mysterious lights in the sky and
flying saucer sightings.

"It's growing bigger and bigger each day," said Michel
Guilbault, a consultant working with the town on a number of
UFO-related projects.

"Something's happening, I couldn't say what. I'm not exactly a
believer but I think it could happen."

Local lore has it the town was named Moonbeam after several
residents reported seeing strange, unexplained lights in the sky
as early as the 1900s.

Moonbeam has been trading on its "spacey" reputation since the
early '90s when, instead of the standard animal mascot, the town
erected a fibreglass flying saucer statue - complete with
flashing lights - outside the town limits.

A recently unearthed letter to then-minister of lands and
forests Rene Brunelle written in 1969 has only heightened
interest in all things extra-terrestrial.

The letter described several sightings of red and orange
flattened domed disks measuring 15 to 20 feet (five to seven
metres) in diameter.

"When we found that letter we thought that was an interesting
story, why not collect information on UFO phenomena? So we
decided to do an E.T. related project in tourism," Guilbault
said.

The town's UFO-inspired projects include newly opened nature
trail hikes, led by an alien mascot and plans for a UFO museum.

In the past year, the town has documented a dozen UFO sightings
from credible witnesses, Guilbault said.

'It's been like a snowball'

"These are all trusted people. It's been like a snowball."

Winnipeg UFO expert Chris Rutkowski said Moonbeam may have
earned bragging rights as Canada's most notable space alien hub.

"I have to agree there are some things going for them that other
places don't have," he said.

"It may be the only place in the world named after a UFO. Not
even Roswell can say that."

And while the town can't claim the most UFO sightings of any
other centre, it appears to have the longest history of
sightings, Rutkowski said.






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                   Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul>
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 02:13:02 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 07:03:23 -0400
Subject: Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS - Gates


>From: Bryan Daum <bryandaum.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 22:24:44 -0700
>Subject: Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS

>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 14:41:38 +0100 (BST)
>>Subject: More On The Closure Of NIDS

>>Source:

>>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/2271/

>>The End of the National Institute for Discovery Science (NIDS)


>>Elizabeth Dane
>>July 2004

>>I recently sat down for lunch with a former staff member of the
>>National Institute for Discovery Science (NIDS). As a long time
>>follower of the UFO field, over the years I had often heard
>>stories and read rumors on message boards posted by
>>conspiratorial minded Ufologists that NIDS was a front for the
>>CIA; that NIDS had in its possession a crashed alien spacecraft;
>>that NIDS was privy to secrets regarding alien technology; and
>>many others.

>>Now that my acquaintance was no longer in their employ, I
>>pressed for answers to these wild claims. As I suspected,
>>nothing could have been further from the truth. Many in the UFO
>>community looked to NIDS to "solve" the UFO problem. Some seemed
>>to spend more time and energy gossiping about what NIDS was
>>investigating, what NIDS should be investigating, or what
>>information NIDS was hiding, than doing any original research of
>>their own.

><snip>

>>Otherwise, indeed they will be waiting a very long time for NIDS
>>to share their research results =97 not, however, because NIDS is
>>keeping them secret (which has always been the accusation), but
>>because it is no longer conducting original research of any
>>kind.

>I found the report of Elizabeth Dane you submitted quite
>enlightening. But the Elizabeth Dane was a ship entering Antonio
>Bay (The Fog) - so is there such a person or just a monicker?
>The reputed report of hers was interesting and well thought
>through. Where did it really come from?

Bryan, Listers,

Perhaps from an ET dressed as an anciet pirate, who as it comes
through the time space doorway tells the started onlookers at
the NIDS ranch that it is time for somebody to pay...
preferably in Klingon coinage. :)

>I have corresponded with Colm Kelleher in the last month asking
>why there was never a final on "the ranch" investigation and in
>fact why the only "report" I ever saw was that of a reporter
>visitor. That the investigation was apparently so unique
>updates or a final were in order. He implied there was still
>ongoing investigation and protection of the site was likely the
>cause of the NIDS silence. That the organization ends now is
>quite disheartening.

I find it interesting that there was an implication that serious
work was still being conducted at the ranch, not to mention NIDS
unloading the Flying triangle report not long ago, BUT even with
all the implications and reports one could reasonably conclude
that NIDS had decided to fold in May or June of this year (about
when Dr. Cornet got hired on, then promptly laid off 3 or 4
weeks later)

If you believe all the ranch stories you would think that this
would be prime investigative ground... or so one would think. As
I mentioned earlier I was told that the ranch activity pretty
well died off in late 99 or early 2000 and their has been very
little if any activity going on. So other then the occasional
press reports and Knapps article (which for the most part was a
rehash of earlier articles by David Perkins and others) there
apparently wasn't any "new" information about the ranch.
Supposedly NIDS had atleast one or two full time paid
investigators that lived near the ranch. They were probably
laid off as well.

>I wonder if the ranch is for sale again?

One never knows....

Cheers,

Robert







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                 Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS - Bourdais

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:12:16 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 07:06:43 -0400
Subject: Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS - Bourdais


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 18:30:32 EDT
>Subject: Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:15:38 +0000
>>Subject: Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS

>>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:38:31 +0100 (BST)
>>>Subject: Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS

><snip>

>>Sure, you can exercise free speech and say it (thank you to
>>Bigelow), but the truth of the matter is that the woman who
>>characterized NIDS on this thread had it exactly right. I was
>>one of those in on the original Bigelow-UFOs thing even before
>>NIDS came along, and he was basically the problem. Many good
>>people tried to work with him or for him, and the typical result
>>was very shoddy treatment, being lied to, manipulated, and laid
>>off without decent notice or pay.

>>In the interest of full disclosure, I personally clashed with
>>Bigelow and incurred his hatred when I walked out of a key
>>meeting in disgust at his arbitrariness and unfair treatment of
>>people. He hates my guts, and - well - I consider him to be a
>>nouveau riche, manipulative egomaniac who thinks he knows more
>>than anyone else simply because he became wealthy buying and
>>selling real estate.

>I don't know what went on at NIDS. All I can say is after
>reading this thread it sounds like typical 'GIA: Government In
>Action'.

Greg,

This reminds me of a recent, peculiar incident.

A couple of years ago, the FAA granted NIDS the exclusivity of
pilot's sightings. It was a slap in the face of NARCAP!
Especially knowing that Jacques Vallee was both with NIDS and
NARCAP.

Where are these reports going to go? To NARCAP? Were there
reports, anyway?

And what about the secret abduction files sold to NIDS?

In short, what about NIDS archives?


Gildas Bourdais








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                       Valparaiso Chile UFO Explained

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 07:39:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 07:09:29 -0400
Subject: Valparaiso Chile UFO Explained


INEXPLICATA
The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
October 20, 2004

Source: Www.Aion.Cl
Date: October 19, 2004

Chile: Valparaiso UFO Explained

After having met with the author of the photographs obtained on
Sunday, October 10 from Paseo 21 de Mayo in this city, and
having replied exactly - under the same conditions of time,
location, camera employed and accessories - we can state with
absolute certainty that the Valaparaiso "UFO" was nothing more
than unfortunate sequence of reflections.

The foregoing is stated based on a series of interviews of the
parties involved, observations of the image and subsequent
visits to the exact site at which the photos were taken.

In order to verify the information, we held a meeting on
10.14.04 at 16:20 hrs. with photographer Manuel Aguirre from "El
Mercurio de Valaparaiso", author of the images, and after having
seen them for over 20 minutes on a computer we realized that
some small lights appear on the first three images taken. This
heightened doubts on the actual presence of this phenomenon over
the hills of Vi=F1a del Mar (at the Nueva Aurora sector, as had
been claimed) and rather confirmed the interpretation of the
event as a reflected luminous event.

In order to dispel all doubt, we decided to meet on Thursday the
14th at the exact site from where the images were taken and at
the same time: we reached Paseo 21 de Mayo in Valparaiso at
20:00 hrs to begin the photo session under the same original
conditions, which is to say, using the same photo camera and its
accessories, the same location, same time ( (20.26 and 20.27
hrs. and landscape (Esmeralda School Ship in Molo de Abrigo).

After having taken the first photos, our original suspicions
were fully confirmed. A "flotilla" of UFOs appeared in the
environs of the location in question. All pointed to the
published photos being little more than "lens flares" - in other
words, reflections of luminous objects against the camera lens--
 something that isn't new, but on the contrary very common, in
many cases involving so called nocturnal lights and daytime
disks.

We wish to thank the professionalism and integrity of Manuel
Aguirre, the author of the images, in accepting the visual
error, given that from the start he defended them strongly,
leaving those interested in the subject even more confused. His
concern in clarifying the case, as well as to provide us with
his time for doing so, are signs of his acknowledgement of the
incorrect interpretation. This is worthy of admiration and
respect.

We therefore request yet again taht anyone who is a witness or
protagonist to such an event comply with formal research
procedures to avoid confusing the community (whether pro or
against ufology) given that similar events produce a negative
image of those who wish to ascertain the truth about the
subject.


Translation (c) 2004. Scott Corrales, IHU
Special thanks to Enrique Silva and Victor Vial AION









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   Oct > Oct 20

                     UK 'FOIA' Set To Launch January 1st

From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:00:23 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 07:14:44 -0400
Subject: UK 'FOIA' Set To Launch January 1st


Great News for Ufologists Everywhere

The UK is finally, and very belatedly, getting its own FOI which
comes into affect on January 1st. Initial estimates a few weeks
ago suggested that the cost of a search could be as high as =A3500
a time - approximately $900 US, which would obviouly be
extremely prohibitive.

As a result of approaches from various sources, the government
has relented and is now saying that most searches will be free.
This is a staggering turnaround and one most warmly welcomed and
appreciated.

-----

Source: The Telegraph - London

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;sessionid=3D0A5K2AARJUFF3QFIQMGSM=
5OAVCBQWJVC?xml=3D/news/2004/10/19/nfoi19.xml&sSheet=3D/news/2004/10/19/ixho=
me.html

10-19-04

Access to official files will be free of cost
By
Andrew Sparrow
Political Correspondent

Most people who use the Freedom of Information Act to obtain
official files will not have to pay, the Government said
yesterday.

Lord Falconer, the Constitutional Affairs Secretary, revealed
that Whitehall departments will only be able to charge if the
cost of retrieving and collating the information requested is
more than =A3600.

Other public bodies will only be allowed to charge if the cost
of complying with a FoI Act application is more than =A3450.

Lord Falconer announced the two figures in an attempt to dispel
claims that prohibitive costs would make it hard for people to
take advantage of the Act when it comes into force on Jan 1 next
year.

In a speech to the Society of Editors conference in Newcastle,
Lord Falconer said the Government wanted access to information
to be mostly free because it wanted to change the culture of
official dissemination.

"We don't want cost to deter people from asking about the policy
discussions that influence their children's education, the way
hospitals treat and care for their parents or the way police
patrol their neighbourhoods," he said.

Lord Falconer told the conference that the =A3450 limit was
equivalent to the average cost of an official working for two
and a half days. The =A3600 limit was equivalent to an official
spending three and a half days collating paperwork.

All people who use the FoI Act will, however, have to pay the
costs of copying, printing or posting their documents.

Under the Act, anyone will be able to apply for information held
by more than 100,000 public bodies. Authorities will have to
reply within 20 days.

Some categories of information will be exempt. But Lord Falconer
said the Government was genuinely committed to promoting
openness.

"Greater access to information will improve the dialogue between
public bodies making decisions and the people affected by them,"
he said.

Maurice Frankel, the director of the Campaign for Freedom of
Information, said he was "surprised" by how generous the
Government's charging arrangements were.










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                         Famous UFO 'Abductee' Dies

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 07:25:26 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 07:25:26 -0400
Subject: Famous UFO 'Abductee' Dies




Source: CBC News - Canada

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2004/10/19/BettyHill_041019.html

19-10-04


Famous UFO 'Abductee' Dies

PORTSMOUTH, N.H. - Betty Hill, the woman known as "the first
lady of UFOs," has died of lung cancer in New Hampshire at the
age of 85.

Hill and her late husband gained notoriety in the 1960s when
their story of being abducted by extra-terrestrials came to
light. Barney Hill died in 1969.

The Hills arrived home from a trip to Canada in 1961 only to
notice that the dress Betty had been wearing was torn and tear-
stained, both their watches had stopped and they had no memory
of a two-hour section of the drive.

Three years later, under hypnosis, the Hills recalled being
kidnapped and examined by aliens. A leaked transcript of their
hypnosis session was eventually published in a Boston newspaper.

Short extra-terrestrials with big eyes

The Hills said their car had stalled in the middle of the road
in New Hampshire's White Mountains when life forms took them
into their space craft. They described the beings as resembling
short, bald humans with big eyes and high foreheads.

Their story became the focus of a 1966 bestseller, Interrupted
Journey , and a television movie called UFO Incident starring
James Earl Jones and Estelle Getty.

The Hills travelled across the U.S. to give speeches and made
many radio and TV appearances recounting their experience.

Betty Hill retired from UFO lecturing in her 70s. In 1995, she
published a book called A Common Sense Approach to UFOs.

Hill donated most of the money she earned from telling her UFO
story to various charities.

Outside of her lecturing life, Hill worked as a social worker
for the state of New Hampshire, specializing in adoptions.

In recent years, she has complained about the deluge of UFO
sightings and abduction reports. She said she doesn't believe
they're all true, because planes wouldn't be able to fly through
the air if so many alien aircraft were hovering around.

Written by CBC News Online staff







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                       Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS

From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:13:54 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 07:27:08 -0400
Subject: Re:  More On The Closure Of NIDS


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:15:38 +0000
>Subject: Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS

>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:38:31 +0100 (BST)
>>Subject: Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS

<snip>

>>Like many others, I had a great respect for NIDS, regardless
>>of the negative comments in the quoted piece. But I think,
>>like a lot of other things in ufology, and possibly Life as >
>well, we took it for granted. When you think about it, it
>>really was quite fantastic that a man of money was prepared >
>to put some of it into this subject and to do so in a
>>properly organised and scientific manner. So can I say a big
>>public thank you to Mr. Bigelow for his commitment and
>>effort and express my regrets and sorrow that it was felt
>>neccessary to close it down.

><snip>

>Sure, you can exercise free speech and say it (thank you to
>Bigelow), but the truth of the matter is that the woman who
>characterized NIDS on this thread had it exactly right. I was
>one of those in on the original Bigelow-UFOs thing even before
>NIDS came along, and he was basically the problem. Many good
>people tried to work with him or for him, and the typical
>result was very shoddy treatment, being lied to, manipulated,
>and laid off without decent notice or pay.

>In the interest of full disclosure, I personally clashed with
>Bigelow and incurred his hatred when I walked out of a key
>meeting in disgust at his arbitrariness and unfair treatment
>of people. He hates my guts, and - well - I consider him to
>be a nouveau riche, manipulative egomaniac who thinks he
>knows more than anyone else simply because he became wealthy >
>buying and selling real estate.


Dick,

I cannot but acknowledge and bow to your direct experience of
the man.

Most self-made, successful people are as you describe Mr.
Bigelow. Unfortunately, one needs those character defects in
order to succeeed. I take comfort from the conclusion that I
must be a balanced, pleasant individual for how else am I to
explain my continuing state of pecuniary defficiency?


Stuart Miller








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                  Re: Famous UFO 'Abductee' Dies - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 10:01:09 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 22:36:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Famous UFO 'Abductee' Dies - Friedman


>Source: CBC News - Canada

>http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2004/10/19/BettyHill_041019.html

>19-10-04


>Famous UFO 'Abductee' Dies

>PORTSMOUTH, N.H. - Betty Hill, the woman known as "the first
>lady of UFOs," has died of lung cancer in New Hampshire at the
>age of 85.

<snip>

>Their story became the focus of a 1966 bestseller, Interrupted
>Journey , and a television movie called UFO Incident starring
>James Earl Jones and Estelle Getty.

>The Hills travelled across the U.S. to give speeches and made
>many radio and TV appearances recounting their experience.

<snip>

>Written by CBC News Online staff

It should be noted that CBC's "As it Happens" 6:30PM - 7:30PM also
carried a story which included replaying a tape of Betty being
interviewed in the late 1970s. That was Estelle Parsons not
Estelle Getty playing Betty in NBC's "The UFO Incident"
broadcast in about 1975.

Stan Friedman







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                 Re: Can Anyone Identify This Battleship? -

From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 14:11:12 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 22:38:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Can Anyone Identify This Battleship? -


>From: Aaron LeLeClairsaucer.nul>
>To: <ufufoupdatesivirtuallystrangeet>
>Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 19:28:31 -0400
>Subject: Re: Can Anyone Identify This Battleship?


>>From: Colin Stevenson <cocolswebtbtopenworldom>
>>To: ufufoupdatesivirtuallystrangeet
>>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:00:21 +0100 (BSBST
>>Subject: Can Anyone Identify This Battleship?

>>Can anyone identify this Battleship?

>>hthttp/wwwwwocolswebom/MaMarsdamigif

>>It seems to be of modern type class to me.

>>Does anyone know of one similar, which is missing?

>It's a giant kazoo.

Is there a sub class or designation number of the Kazoo class
Battleships ?

My reply would have been that my Mother in Law is not anywhere
near Mars :-)

The other explanation would have been that Martians are really
bad Ice Sculptors


Col







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                 Re: Can Anyone Identify This Battleship? -

From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 14:24:27 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 22:41:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Can Anyone Identify This Battleship? -


>From: Kyle King <kykylekingbsbcglobalet>
>To: <ufufoupdatesivirtuallystrangeet>
>Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 09:25:33 -0500
>Subject: Re: Can Anyone Identify This Battleship?

>>From: Colin Stevenson <cocolswebtbtopenworldom>
>>To: ufufoupdatesivirtuallystrangeet
>>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:00:21 +0100 (BSBST
>>Subject: Can Anyone Identify This Battleship?

>>Can anyone identify this Battleship?

>>hthttp/wwwwwocolswebom/MaMarsdamigif

>>It seems to be of modern type class to me.

>>Does anyone know of one similar, which is missing?

>Is there more info on the image... scale, location, etc?

>A better question might have been, "Does anyone see anything
>odd in this photo?", rather than "can anyone identify this
>battleship?". If you had not outlined the subject, I would
>not >have known to what you were referring.

Hi Kyle and Listers

Answer to your first question is that there is. The graphic
shown is lightened from a NASA source and sent to me from a dear
friend who wishes to remain anonymous for the present.

Bearing in mind recent NASA ESA etc data in regard to water and
methane there is nothing much else unusual in the picture at
all.


Kind regards

Col







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               Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO -

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 09:36:28 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 22:42:43 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO -


>From: Brenda Denzler <denzlerb.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 15:46:47 -0400
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 09:39:48 -0400
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Close Encounter With Green UFO

>>I wonder how Hector Quintanilla would evaluate this sighting. Of
>>course, you all know who Hector was.

>>Don't you?

>Oooh! Me! Me! Me! I know! I know!

>He was the successor to Ruppelt at Project Blue Book!

>(Do I get a gold star on my report card today, Bruce?)

Maybe a bronze star. Ruppelt stopped being director or BB in
1953. Hector began about 10 years later. There were several in
between.







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                 Re: Can Anyone Identify This Battleship? -

From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 15:15:59 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 22:45:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Can Anyone Identify This Battleship? -


>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 11:40:36 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)
>Subject: Re: Can Anyone Identify This Battleship?

>>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:00:21 +0100 (BST)
>>Subject: Can Anyone Identify This Battleship?

>>Can anyone identify this Battleship?

>>http://www.colsweb.com/Marsdam.gif

>>It seems to be of modern type class to me.

>>Does anyone know of one similar, which is missing?

>Personally, I do not see a battleship. Like in Rorschach ink
>blot tests, different people see different things.

>There are now many more images of what seem to be lakes of
>liquid water (possibly brackish water which has a lower freezing
>point) on Mars. Below is one of the earliest such lakes that
>have been identified. With a little imagination one can see what
>looks like a lake freighter in the middle of this Martian lake.

>http://palermoproject.com/Mars_Anomalies/MartianLake.html

>Unlike the monster size "battleship" in your Mars lake photo
>which is many time bigger than the largest ship ever built on
>Earth and thus not likely to be an artificial artifact, the
>"lake freighter" in this other Mars lake photo could still prove
>to be a large Martian ship.

>Paul Martin turned over ownership of his fleet of lake
>freighters to his son before becoming Canada's Prime Minister.
>Maybe you should ask Martin if one of his ships are missing.
> ;o)


>Nick Balaskas

Hi Nick and Listers

I take your point about logical assumptions from interference
patterns. I ounce had a photo of an Aliens Hand in the tree's
which turned out to be a Handbag at closer inspection so maybe
NASA could do the same to disprove my assumption on the point
raised :-)

Re; your picture link given. They are not ships as they have no
Funnels at all that l can see.

Where there is smoke from a Funnel there must be fire and the
radar dome, Gun Turrets and rocket launchers on my Ship would
seem to indicate this. Are you sure you have interpreted the
scale correctly? Or maybe the USA (?) do things bigger and
better than we ever thought.


Kind regards

Col







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                Re: Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 11:45:43 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 22:49:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information


>From: Victor Viggiani <zland.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 15:32:25 -0400
>Subject: Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information Project

>Want to engage yourself in the disclosure process?

>Want to encourage an elected representative or a journalist to
>do something about the need for ETI Disclosure?

Don't you want to first assess the dangers of ETI disclosure?
Why promote, nay, force our elected officials into doing
something that may cause chaos in our society? "Disclosure"
sounds so positive and "good"... too bad the dark side is being
ignored by UFO enthusiasts and promoters. Well, good luck, say
I! Make life more interesting than it already is with terrorists
everywhere! Heh, who wants a peaceful and safe world? Or at
least one that seems that way!

<snip>

>The time has long since passed for the UFO research community
>and those with an interest in anomalous events to be solely
>immersed in data collection, conferences focusing on
>phenomenology and endless debate about oil fires and hoaxes.

Actually, the time has long since past when the UFO research
community got its act together and started to do peer reviewed
research which people can sit up and take notice of rather than
the mish-mash we have today. That the oil rig burnoff flames
have not been generally accepted by the "UFO community" is a
sign of the sorry state of affairs the "peer review" we have at
this time.

>It is time to act. It is time to politicize the essence of what
>we do.

>No other constituent but the individual has the capacity to
>alter the perception of elected officials and journalists to the
>essence of the ETI issue.

>Individuals must act. Become engaged.

>We must recruit the help of journalists to perform their
>rightful duty in a free society; publish the truth. We must
>encourage and enlist the support of our elected representatives
>to speak and demand the truth in the halls of our democratic
>institutions.

First, build up the respectability of the UFO field by creating
peer review journals that analyze cases that have good merit to
show that UFOs are really ET. Don't expect journalists to do
anything but sensationalize things, its how they sell papers.
Truth! You (or at least society) can't handle the truth. What
kind of people do you think make up society anyway? These people
are generally poorly educated, listen to/watch Howard Stern and
sports. Don't weigh them down with this burden which you are
demanding of the government! What you should do, if you really
think its necessary, is ask for funding to research the topic
(after showing the good, peer reviewed data and the potential
threats of the phenomena). However, even then I would hope the
funding is secret and results released after assessment of
consequences.

>As long as we, the citizens within a democratic social order
>remain silent, the ETI issue will remain politically inert and
>the substance of mockery. If the ETI issue means anything it
>means we must identify it as the most important and yes
>enigmatic, historical, social and geo-political event of our
>times.

The citizens can complain if they are being bothered by UFOs,
etc., of course. But really, it is the UFO research communities
responsibility to gather quality data and present the case to
the media and government (if YOU dare take on the responsiblity
of panic induced deaths caused by the realisation that we can't
STOP UFOs and their obvious hostile behavior!).

>To do anything less is to denigrate the intense nature the ETI
>issue; to consign it to the ridicule and denial used by media
>and government.

Maybe ridicule is the safest way for the situation to be dealt
with. Perhaps mockery and ridicule is Society's way to handle
this no-win situation, at least on a socio-psychological basis.







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                   Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS - Smith

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 13:48:56 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 22:52:46 -0400
Subject: Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS - Smith


>From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 10:49:51 -0500 (CDT)
>Subject: Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS

>That's odd. I presented a list of such projects to the UFO
>community (and, in fact, NIDS itself) several years ago. I was,
>of course, ignored.

<snip>

Yes, you have a very nice list and indeed many more such ideas
come to mind.

But the main problem is money and time. Who is going to fund
this kind of effort? Do you have to hide the research under a
more conventional name in order to get funding through standard
government sources or is there another anomaly sugar daddy out
there or do we have to wait for anomaly enthusiasts to retire
from their REAL jobs (who hopefully NOW have both the free time
and money) to do the work gratis?

You have to pay the bills. So how is this done. And if it is
done who will believe it unless we have some mechanism of hard-
core peer review like the conventional paradigm scientific
journals?

It takes alot of work to get funding for any project. Who out
there in the UFO community is ready to do this? Few. For most
this is a hobby and a money/time sink, although it is very
interesting to us.

Regarding the ball lightning research idea, that could be done
within the convenetional paradigm funding method, even possibly
by the military. But then again, most of the UFO community has a
distinct distrust of the military and also the government in
general.

The earthquake ideas may get funding by non-US sources, but then
I think they are already doing work in that area.

I think the psychological related ideas can even get standard US
funding because they CAN presume its all not really
UFOs/ET/Real. Fits into the paradigm so it gets funding.








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                        First Space Ship One And Now

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 15:54:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 23:15:52 -0400
Subject: First Space Ship One And Now


List,

Per this story...

http://tinyurl.com/6qcu8

If anyone wondered if projects like the Ansari X-Prize might
usher in a new era of private, civilian space exploration,
here's tangible proof.

Leveraging the InterNet, and a large collective of 250 motivated
young minds, a new satellite is being readied for launch next
May. From idea to clean-room in a year!

Simply incredible. Godspeed to SSeti, and hopefully the sky just
got a little closer. Catchy name, too. :)


Kyle







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                     Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings?

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 18:33:01 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 23:17:06 -0400
Subject: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings?


I can't say why the topic of changelings came up, it's not
appropriate at this moment but it is pertinent to the subject of
abductions and visitations.

I'm wondering if any of you has covered this subject in depth in
books, papers, video etc.


Thanks,

Greg








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                 Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 20:14:22 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 23:20:20 -0400
Subject: Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS - Friedman


>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:13:54 +0100 (BST)
>Subject: Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:15:38 +0000
>>Subject: Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS

>>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:38:31 +0100 (BST)
>>>Subject: Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS

><snip>

>>>Like many others, I had a great respect for NIDS, regardless
>>>of the negative comments in the quoted piece. But I think,
>>>like a lot of other things in ufology, and possibly Life as >
>>well, we took it for granted. When you think about it, it
>>>really was quite fantastic that a man of money was prepared >
>>to put some of it into this subject and to do so in a
>>>properly organised and scientific manner. So can I say a big
>>>public thank you to Mr. Bigelow for his commitment and
>>>effort and express my regrets and sorrow that it was felt
>>>neccessary to close it down.

>><snip>

>>Sure, you can exercise free speech and say it (thank you to
>>Bigelow), but the truth of the matter is that the woman who
>>characterized NIDS on this thread had it exactly right. I was
>>one of those in on the original Bigelow-UFOs thing even before
>>NIDS came along, and he was basically the problem. Many good
>>people tried to work with him or for him, and the typical
>>result was very shoddy treatment, being lied to, manipulated,
>>and laid off without decent notice or pay.

>>In the interest of full disclosure, I personally clashed with
>>Bigelow and incurred his hatred when I walked out of a key
>>meeting in disgust at his arbitrariness and unfair treatment
>>of people. He hates my guts, and - well - I consider him to
>>be a nouveau riche, manipulative egomaniac who thinks he
>>knows more than anyone else simply because he became wealthy >
>>buying and selling real estate.

>I cannot but acknowledge and bow to your direct experience of
>the man.

>Most self-made, successful people are as you describe Mr.
>Bigelow. Unfortunately, one needs those character defects in
>order to succeeed. I take comfort from the conclusion that I
>must be a balanced, pleasant individual for how else am I to
>explain my continuing state of pecuniary defficiency?


Bob Bigelow supported, generously, some of my research back in
the early 1990s. He did everything he said he would when he said
he would do it. He wanted to be a fly on the wall for some of
the trips - he was. He responded rapidly to requests. Yes, he was
a hard-nosed business man. But he did provide quite a bit of
money to MUFON, CUFOS and FUFOR. From what I hear he stopped
when some of those involved decided he should have no voice in
how the money was to be spent, just send checks. It appears the
groups cut off their noses to spite their faces.

He got Art Bell started by sponsoring Dreamland Sunday nights on
a Las Vegas Radio station. Lots of interesting guests. He pulled
the plug after many months because he didn't want to repeat
guests. His labor relations policies apparently left something
to be desired. He certainly did more good than bad.

Lots of people hated Admiral Hyman Rickover who developed the
nuclear navy. He is still one of my heroes.


Stan Friedman








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   Oct > Oct 20

                            Betty Hill Obituaries

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 20:29:28 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 23:22:34 -0400
Subject: Betty Hill Obituaries


I was surprised last night when As It Happens, a CBC Radio Prime
time show broadcast and interview done with Betty back in the
1970s. They played it straight.

On Wednesday, October 20,the Toronto Globe and Mail newspaper
carried a big obituary with 2 pictures, one taken for a friendly
article by Bram Eisenthal, last year showing Betty and an alien
bust. The other was an old one of Betty and Barney.

The headline was pretty silly: "Her UFO Saga spawned a cult".
This isn't substantiated by anything in the article. The tone is
actually pretty good. They quote me at some length, though I am
not sure if it was from Bram's article last year or from some
telephone interviews I have done in the last couple of days.
None, so far as I can recall were with the  Globe and Mail.
Unfortunately they also called me Dr. Friedman three times... I
suppose I will hear about that.

I also talked about Betty on Coast to Coast for a few minutes
Monday night and offered copies of my last couple of hundred
booklets, The Zeta Reticuli Incident, by Terence Dickinson,
about the star map work by Marjorie Fish, for $5 - from me at
POB 958, Houlton, ME 04730-0958.(including Shipping). I suspect
they will go rapidly. Canadians only $6.25 from 79 Pembroke
Cres, Fredericton, NB E3B 2V1. I have seen it on the Internet.
Ink costs for printing would be excessive.

Betty and Barney were special people indeed.


Stan Friedman









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               HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 10-20-04

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO Research <hbccufo.nul>
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 16:50:38 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 23:25:38 -0400
Subject: HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 10-20-04


HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings

Release Date: October 20, 2004

I would like to add a comment to this newsletter. I have the
John Tosti Story almost finished up. This is a major report.
Also I have another large report I am working on called the
Cannon Airforce Base UFO Incident. Another major story with
updates. Both these reports will be released very soon. The John
Tosti story will also have footage, still photos, a medical
record or documents, etc. Excellent story everyone will want to
read.

Take care
Brian - HBCC UFO Research

-----

Spring Hill Ranch, Telkwa Hi Road In Smithers B.C. Strange Craft

Date: Between 1970 & 1983
Time: ?

I grew up on Spring Hill Ranch on the Telkwa Hi Road in Smithers
during mid 1970 till 1983. I live in Saskatchewan now.

I can remember an encounter I had on the ranch sometime between
those years, while I was fetching the horses out in the pasture.
The area was well treed and I was walking along the fence line
heading back toward the house, when I just had the notion to
look up. Not far above the tree line, above my head was the
strangest looking aircraft I had ever seen. There was absolutely
no sound to it at all, which amazed me, for one. The other thing
which really sticks out in my memory is the design of it.
Everything backwards. It had two sets of wings. The front set
was smaller than the back set and the wings faced inwards.
Normally wings are designed the opposite way. I don't know how
long it was there before I had noticed it. But when I did look
up, it was there for maybe thirty seconds before it took off and
disappeared into thin air. I never saw it again and never heard
of any other report like it. I do remember hearing an account of
how (name removed) and (name removed) (who lived at opposites
ends of the Bulkley Valley) had seen the same UFO one time.

Sincerely,

Thank you to the witness for the report.

-----------------------

One Person's UFO Experiences Around The United States

Hi Brian,

This a good thing that you are doing. So much is happening with
other people, that if we can compare notes, just maybe the
puzzle will lead to some insight.

I have had sightings since I was around 10 years old. So far
it's been 4X's. I'm not making this up. I live in northern New
Jersey in busy area, and as far as I know, I have not be
abducted, no lost in time. But they want me to know they are
here.

My first was with my Dad closing over a bridge at the Passaic
River in Clifton, we noticed cars pulled over and people looking
up at the sky. It was over a factory on the river, there was
something oblong with flashing red and green lights. we did not
stop, but continue crossing the bridge, we didn't understand
what people where looking at because It looked like part of the
building until we had a better view of the entire building and
guess what! There was no oblong section with flashing lights, it
was gone just like that, so my dad and I were puzzled by that, I
was 10 then and it always stayed with me. What was that? In time
my Dad forgot, but I didn't.

Much later we moved to Lake Hopatcong, NJ. It was 1975, I was in
my twenties, leaving with a date from my home, when I noticed a
bright star or plane as I thought, following us along Rt. 80
heading east, it was keeping pace with us and I commented it to
my friend, we half paid attention to it, thinking you know how,
stars seem to look like it moves with you. When we reached to
our destination, we both got out of the car and looked up to our
surprise it was still there and then all of a sudden 2 other
stars appeared (by now we know it's no longer a star) and forms
a triangle and a bigger object (it might have be oblong) comes
down slowly and stays above the 3 in that formed a triangle, and
the whole things glows very brightly, then the larger object
goes back up and disappears and the other ships in unison shoots
out in 3 different directions and they too disappear! The
display took less then a few seconds. My friend and I were
dumbfounded. We never reported it because who would believe it!
I actually felt privileged to witness such a thing! It happened
in a city called Parsippany, which years later I moved to and is
still living here!

The 3rd experience was strange, I was driving in a remote area
with my son who at the time was about 3. A low flying plane
comes out from over the trees, it looked like it almost touch
the trees, and we go on to the highway (again Rt. 80), but this
time it's way up west near Alamuchy. The plane was weird because
it made no sound and is flying with its wings straight up and
down, vertically, not horizontally, and then I notice all the
cars around me are going slow and also watching it.

It flew right next to me, for a while then crossed in front
flying along the highway then goes back the other directions out
of site. It was late at night about 11:00 p.m., at first I
thought it was a glider but no glider can fly in that position,
unless it was turning, for that matter I don't know if any plane
can fly in that position and never turn it's wings horizontal,
either!

#4 Happen just this year in May. My friend was driving us home
from a weekend business trip it was about 10:30 p.m. we were
tired and out of conversation at that point so to entertain
myself I started to watch the planes headed for Newark airport,
we were on Rt. 280 in East Orange headed west when I spotted a
plane crossing the highway and turning around above the trees,
It was partially hided, and heading back in the direction it
came from.

Then it slowed up ahead of our car, do planes slow down? Anyway
it kept pace with us along the highway and as us turned off to
exit, it made a quick turn with us. My alarm went off! I watched
it as it again kept pace and when another plane came near, it's
lights dimmed, almost wasn't visible, after it passed the other
plane, (which looked like a regular plane, sounds and all, just
to compare the difference between them) the UFO then brightened
up and that's when I told my companion about the strange plane
and told her to watch it. We were just coming to a traffic light
and when we stopped it stopped! It just stayed put, right in
front of us, above the intersection, not moving! As we moved, it
again kept pace and turn down the street I lived, before we
turned as to let me know it knew where we were going.

I didn't see it after I got out of the car but it spooked me!
Now my friend didn't pay it no mind because she thought it just
was a star and they look like they move with you! She was very
tired, I thought she would have been a witness to it, she didn't
believe me when I told her it was following us from the highway!
I told her stars don't make quick turns to keep pace with you
and also pass you up! It acted with intelligence. I have never
read any others experience as I, have you?

I would appreciate any input you have on it. I always felt like
I was different from others, I grew up with interest in
metaphysics and have learned to trust my intuition, which is
very keen. Which I now understand those who have UFO experiences
also have the same interests as I.

I would like to thank the witness for the report.

---------------------------

Steamboat Springs Colorado White Orb

Date: March 11, 2004
Time: 2:30 p.m.

I was on spring break for my last semester of college we were
driving back from Steamboat Springs Colorado and I was taking
lots of pictures with my friends 4 megapixel Canon Powershot
camera. I am one for details, I was looking through the pictures
several times after I downloaded them to my laptop and noticed
something peculiar in more than one of the photos. In this photo
if you zoom in with your (+) viewer you can see a perfectly
round white orb up over the road ahead. A first glance it looks
like a white dot about 200 feet above the road in the distance
but when you zoom in on the dot it is perfectly round looking
liking a large round white ball just sitting their in mid air. I
am not really sure that this is something wrong with the camera
because I looked through the other photos and have not seen
anything similar.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

------------------------------

Scarborough, Ontario White Round Object

Date: September 21, 2004
Time: Approx.10:22 a.m. -10:25 a.m.

On September 21, 2004 at approx.10:22 a.m. -10:25 a.m. in
central Scarborough, Ontario I witnessed a white round object
travelling from the west at the distance of about 1-2 kms max.
The background was a absolutely clear blue sky with patches of
cloud and a heck of alot of puffy, white chemtrail lines and
even included "X"s. (Crisscross) Watching the object for about a
minute, I pulled out my binoculars to view better. Brian, as I
viewed the object with a amazement behind it to the west were
smaller objects (6-7) higher and dispersed west of the larger
one closer to me. First multiple sighting this year, continued
to observe the closer object. This strange object appeared
coined shaped with brilliant white colour, no intense light. You
could almost classify it like a large orb. After 2 minutes of
viewing with binoculars, I called a Fed X courier driver across
the street to view.

Within 10 seconds where I pointed straight south of us he too
could see the white round object with the naked eye. I passed
the binoculars to him watch, he had problems to focus through
and passed them back to me. We watched the object for another 2
minutes travelling east over near the shoreline of Lake Ontario.
This object travelled in a straight line above the lakeshore
from west to east. What's also interesting is a large grayish-
white jet flying in from the northwest towards the southeast
towards the UFO. The jet was dispensing one hell of a chemtrail
and talk about rainbows just behind the jets trail. This jet
looked military with a longer wings span, travelling about the
same altitude as the UFO.

We watch the UFO continue east as the jet intersected behind the
UFO's flight path. The jet was slightly turning more to a
southeast away from the object. Makes you wonder if chemtrails
are used to blanket crisp clear blue skies in obstructing vision
of UFO's. The good news is I snapped a picture, the bad news is
it's a disposable. But at least I have a witness, and it's his
first sighting. The speed of the UFO seem that like a Cessna,
and lasted about 5-7 minutes. Today, September 22 at approx:
11:00 a.m. noticed low flying black military helicopter over
head flying due south and turning east. Interesting stuff over
here Brian.One thing to note was September 21, 2004 is on a new
quarter moon.

Take care. P.S.as soon as the picture is developed I'll send it
to you.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

------------------------

Scarborough, Ontario UFO Sightings & Strange Occurrences Continue

Date: September 27, 2004 (various)
Time: Various

Hi Brian, you must be busy with all the activity happening
everywhere! But mainly, I've seen more sightings around the
Scarborough area at work. On September 27, 2004 a bright
medicine capsule shape, On October 6, 2004 at 12:10 p.m. a small
bright object moving south and stops, than moves west, stops,
then travels east and gone. Also in Scarborough on Oct.12 at
12:15 p.m. to the south approx.over shoreline of Lake Ontario a
round red object flying east to west until over half of Toronto
turn north. I observed with the binoculars and the perfect
roundness and it's movements where very strange. On Oct.15,2004
we had a 4-5 minute outage in a small radius of Scarborough, I
had a feeling earlier there was going to be an outage and the
day before on October 14, 2004 in Toronto. This outage on
October 15, 2004 also happened in our place of work on October
15, 2003. That day, the power was out for 4 hours until the
hydro trucks came.

During that outage the lights above me at work were on at 20-30%
above my working station only and no where else in the building.
When I would step outside the lights would go off. When I
stepped back in they would come back on (only in my area).
Here's the kicker, after 2 hours into the outage my supervisor
needed something in the warehouse. As we walked the lighting
above cascaded brightly flickering as we walked under the
florescent lights them until we stopped in the given area of the
warehouse. They were flickering so bright the boss looked up and
asked "what's wrong with the lights"and my reply was " I don't
know, power outage"

I had to play stupid. Was there something around me or was I the
source. Incredible, even today I can't believe what I've seen
and experienced. Is this of what a sensitive is all about, now
people at work are starting to be afraid of what I've shown them
(UFO's) and the lights today still are flickering above me now
and again. Some are spooked of the goings on here at work. I'm
not fired yet, but talk of these strange happenings may be going
on with upper management. We have had alot of outages in just
our bldg. Sometimes in sections, maybe faulty wiring who knows.
I'm very curious about the activity in Northern Ohio on Sept.22,
sounds to me they had half the military on their feet that day.
Is it possible this relates to my multi-sighting on Sept.21,
2004? Looks to me ET is moving closer to the wake up of the
masses each day, too many daylight sightings are happening
everywhere.

Take care and any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

-----------------------

Mesa, Arizona Unusual Maneuvering Light !

Date: October 2004
Time: Approx: 11.00 a.m.

Hi Brian,

Many thanks for your mail.

I personally have had a number of sightings, as has my father,
but this is the first time we have ever caught anything like
this on film. It was about two weeks ago, the fact that there
were lights in the sky here in Mesa wasn't unusual, however the
pattern of these light, which doesn't tend to be displayed in
the footage was so bizarre. Also right at the end, you will see
the object move rapidly to the left. No plane on the planet can
do this at such an angle.

Furthermore, two days ago, we watched a white speck in the sky
at about 11.00 a.m. am, it didn't move for over 1 hour, we tried
to film it but it was too small, but it wasn't a cloud.

Finally, and we have footage of this also, two days preceding
the video, we noticed that surrounding the clouds for about an
hour, was an incredible amount of color, like looking through a
prism. The guy who films the footage, is (name removed), who
also runs our design company. (name removed) is a trained
Geologist and he was stunned by what was happening in the sky,
the colors etc. Don't know how relevant that is, but I do have
footage capturing the sky if you would like to see it.

Anyways, excuse the long email, keep up the good work.

Regards

Thank you to the witness for the report and stills from the
footage.

Pictures can be viewed at:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=19
77

HBCC UFO Research has viewed the video footage and what can be
seen it really bizarre.

------------------------------

Phoenix Arizona Orbs Close To Aircraft Video Clips

Date: October 15, 2004
Time: Two video clips - (5:10 p.m. & 5:12 p.m.)

The clips I am sending you are ok but somewhat interesting
anyway. I noticed the chemtrail activity has picked up again in
the last 2 days and so have the sightings. The chemtrails and
the sightings go hand in hand as we all know but I did catch 2
orbs flying next to each other and two other orbs a few minutes
later coming from the opposite direction.

The first set of orbs were casually gliding across the sky but
in a straight line towards the North. As they passed overhead an
airplane flies right between them as you can see (barely) on the
clip. I have several clips where there are orbs flying right
next to planes and this time there were two of them. About five
minutes later a plane comes from another direction and another
set of orbs did the same thing. That's interesting no matter
what anyone says. These weren't balloons of any kind because
they moved in a perfectly straight line South to North and
didn't change the distance between each other the whole time I
saw them which was about 10 minutes. The winds that day were
heading East and the objects were approximately 7-10K ft.high. I
thought this was an interesting sighting only because the planes
go between these two sets of orbs two different directions
minutes apart.

Thank you to the gentleman for all of the clips and report.

Video clip and pictures are Copyright 2004RichG.

Video clip #1 Phoenix Arizona Orbs And Aircraft 2.94 mbs
Video clip #2 Phoenix, Arizona Two Orbs Close Together 5.90 mbs

To view video clips:
http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1973

--------------------------

Chilliwack To Langley B.C. Round Sphere, Cloud Or What ?

Date: October 16, 2004
Time: Daytime

Message: Hello

This afternoon returning to Langley BC from a Soccer game in
Chilliwack, I was taking pictures through the car window. One of
the photos I took had a perfectly round sphere just above the
tree line on top of a hill. I can't tell you if it moved or did
any thing as I did not know it was in the photo until I put them
on My Computer. Do you want me to send it? If so how do I email
it to you?

Additional Information:

Attached is the photo I took yesterday. At the time I took it I
had no idea there was an object above the hill or we would have
stopped to watch it. It may be nothing, sure looks strange. I
will be checking the area when we go to my Grand Son's next game
in Chilliwack.

Thank you to the witness for the interesting photo and report.

To view these unusual pictures:
http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=19
78

---------------------------

Garden Bay, B.C. Sphere Of Light

Date: October 20, 2004
Time: Approx: 6:40 a.m.

Good Morning Brian....

I have an interesting story to tell. Every morning when we wake
up we open the patio doors so our cats can go outside (and graze
on the grass). My wife comes and tells me one of our cats did
not come back and she can't find him, so I get my flashlight and
go out to the back yard just as he's coming in. I looked up as
an extremely bright star caught my eye.

I realized that it was moving about the same speed as an
aircraft, but it was one total sphere of light, although the
shape was not distinguishable. It was travelling from South-west
to North-east, silently. I had about a 10 second view before it
disappeared behind the trees so I ran to the front yard and saw
it again for about 4 seconds before it "blinked" out. This was
today, Oct. 20, 2004 at 6:40 a.m. (approx.)

I saw the object approach and retreat, without any change in its
brightness, speed, or flight path. There was absolutely no
sound. Elevation at which it travelled was not discernible, but
it was below the sporadic cloud cover.

You would think that with all my cameras, I would have had one
handy enough to grab to snap at least one picture, but
unfortunately, that was not the case.

Had this object passed during daylight, chances are excellent
that no one would have noticed it. I'll try and do better next
time...

Thank you to the witness for the report.

Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO Research Home - Phone 250 845 2189
email: hbccufo.nul Website: http://www.hbccufo.com
Redirect: http://www.canadianufo.com HBCC UFO RESEARCH
Newsletter At:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HBCC_UFO_Newsletter/








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   Oct > Oct 21

                          More UFOs In Indian Skies

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 06:30:05 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 06:30:05 -0400
Subject: More UFOs In Indian Skies




Source: The India Daily

http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/10-09h-04.asp

10-09-04


More UFOs on Indian sky =96 what is happening on the Indian side
of Himalayas? Are they planning to land? Close Encounters? Are
they building a base?

Sumit Chatterjee
Special Correspondent

More Indian Military personnel and local natives are coming
forward in Himalayas Tarai area (Indian side) and are reporting
extremely unusual activities with many UFO sightings all around
the day. Some Helicopter pilots are complaining about
sophisticated jamming. A young boy in Nepal drew a picture of
what seems to be a Extra terrestrial Flying Object. He saw it
with many friends while playing in the ground. The boys report
that these vehicles have no sound, can take off vertically and
can float without effect of gravity. These vehicles can also
disappear all on a sudden. Some of Indian Air Force pilots are
secretly reporting seeing strange flying objects near Himalayas
around the Chinese border. A Tibetian monk recently in India
said that these activities are going on since 1998 Indian Nuke
test and the number is growing every day.

According some scientists of Indian Geological Survey, UFOs and
strange beings are visiting a specific 100 square kilometers
regularly since last eighteen months. North of Himachal Pradesh
is experiencing very specific sightings. Among the local people
there is a rumor that =93they=94 will land somewhere there in the
next seven years. Some UFO researchers say that beings from K-9
constellation will land on the earth and expose themselves
finally in 2012. Is this then the final preparation of landing
that even Mayans predicted thousands of years back?

One thing for sure, some one has told Indian Government and the
military to stay tight lipped. The military personnel are
talking privately and keep saying that for national security
reasons nothing more can be said. But at least one of them has
come out and said it is definitely UFO.

There are every indication that some landing base is being built
under the hard rocks of Himalayas. The area chosen is tough
terrain and is in no man=92s land buffering between India and
China.

Another interesting thing is also happening. Around this area
extremely increased Indian and Chinese army activities are seen.
It is so active that in any other times one could have said that
India and China is going on war at that spot.

Does India and China know something that they are not talking
about?

Recently an artificial lake was created in China very close to
Indian border. The lake threatened massive flood on the Indian
side. India and China both refused to inspect the area properly.
And all on a sudden local Chine-Indian people report the lake is
no longer there. Whatever residue of the lake is there is there
is no longer a threat to Indian villages. What really happened?
What caused an artificial lake of that size and who took care of
fixing it?

Chinese officials are perplexed at this happening. But India was
never worried. Neither was China worried about the flood. Why?

People in that area are reporting that large and small UFOs are
being seen all the time. Chinese and Indian military is telling
people that these are spy vehicles.

Why should spy vehicles appear all on a sudden? Why should
Indian local people start seeing UFOs near the Himalayas all the
time? Why are these vehicles disappearing so fast?

Some in Indian Space Research Organization secretly are saying
that these UFOs are definitely planning and building a solid
landing site with the help of Indian and Chinese Government.
Time will say what the real story is!







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   Oct > Oct 21

                      Re: Betty Hill Obituaries - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 23:40:36 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 06:32:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Betty Hill Obituaries - Boone


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 20:29:28 -0300
>Subject: Betty Hill Obituaries

>I was surprised last night when As It Happens, a CBC Radio Prime
>time show broadcast and interview done with Betty back in the
>1970s. They played it straight.

>On Wednesday, October 20,the Toronto Globe and Mail newspaper
>carried a big obituary with 2 pictures, one taken for a friendly
>article by Bram Eisenthal, last year showing Betty and an alien
>bust. The other was an old one of Betty and Barney.

>The headline was pretty silly: "Her UFO Saga spawned a cult".

<snip>

I've noticed the rapid number of articles from the various wire
services and like about Betty Hill. I've even gotten some emails
from news colleagues I hadn't heard from in years with an obit
they got somewhere. I then send them the official obit link and
they're suprised to find out how educated and socially active
Betty Hill was. Shook them to their shoes as any arguments about
her character get shot down noting that she and Barney were
notables _before_ their abduction story hit the mains.

In regard to photos. I noticed the one photo AP is using is the
one of Betty and Barney where Betty is standing over Barney's
shoulder whilst he is reading something. In the background to
the left and top is a decoration of a black cat and pumpkin. In
the off center at the top is a cropped bubble light from the
ceiling.

I think that now that people can read the real Betty Hill they
realize she was far more a responsible woman, mother, wife,
citizen and top-notch professional in her fields.

I'ld sure have liked to have seen the look on her abductor's
faces when she gave them some lip back.


Best,

Greg








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   Oct > Oct 21

                   Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS - Gates

From: Robert Gate s<RGates8254.nul>
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 01:24:35 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 06:36:50 -0400
Subject: Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS - Gates


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 23:04:13 +0000
>Subject: Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 18:30:32 EDT
>>Subject: Re: More On The Closure Of NIDS

<snip>

>>I don't know what went on at NIDS. All I can say is after
>>reading this thread it sounds like typical 'GIA: Government In
>>Action'.

>Greg,

>I don't understand your point here at all. Government has/had
>nothing to do with Bigelow or NIDS, unless you believe the
>charges that it was some kind of disinformatioin effoirt - which
>I don't. It's much simpler than that.

Greg, Dick, Listers,

The alleged stories were to the effect that NIDS was actually
doing contract work for some agency in the government. As I
recall no proof in the form of govt contracts could be found...
however the story went that it was through one of the other
Bigelow companys/interests or whatever.

The most plausable sounding of the alleged stories was that an
individual on the NIDS board was passing along copies of NIDS
developed information to particular entities in the government,
i.e. no money exchanging hands, just passing along copies of
findings and information of interest. This particular story has
been passed around and was supposedly told by a NIDS connected
person.

In essence we had two stories that may or may not be true. At
this stage I would assume they are not true.

The more plausable thought is that in the early 90s Robert
Bigelow was really interested in the subject, did quite a bit of
funding to UFO groups and investigators and even bought a ranch
in Utah. After 911, the economy, especially in Vegas slowed
down, not to mention that Bob appeared to have gotten interested
in other projects and put money in that direction.

In essence, it appears that NIDS died because Bob didn't want to
put additional money into it, especially when they tell us they
haven't developed any new information for 2.5 years... in
essence say the last useful information apparently came in in
early 2002. I would imagine that there was some thought in May
or June that NIDS might do something, hence the idea of hiring
Bruce Cornet, however that apparently fizzled leading to the
layoff of Bruce.

According to Elizabeth's story the operation of NIDS consisted
of people like Colm and staffers keeping a low profile and not
attracting the attention of Bob as supposedly that was not liked
or cared for. It could be implied that NIDS staffers, in
essence, had a paid, free-ride, trips to the ranch in Utah,
other locations, not to mention conferences and apparently
didn't come up with anything for 2.5 years.

So bottom line, picture in your mind the end of Raiders of the
Lost Ark where the Ark, in a shipping crate, is being wheeled
into a giant warehouse full of various other shipping crates
stacked high. Likewise NIDS is apparently being wheeled into the
warehouse and being put into storage.


Cheers,

Robert








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Oct > Oct 21

                Re: Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information

From: Erik Landahl <landahl1.nul>
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 22:26:56 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 06:38:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 11:45:43 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>Subject: Re: Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information Project

>>From: Victor Viggiani <zland.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 15:32:25 -0400
>>Subject: Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information Project

>>Want to engage yourself in the disclosure process?

>>Want to encourage an elected representative or a journalist to
>>do something about the need for ETI Disclosure?

>Don't you want to first assess the dangers of ETI disclosure?
>Why promote, nay, force our elected officials into doing
>something that may cause chaos in our society? "Disclosure"
>sounds so positive and "good"... too bad the dark side is being
>ignored by UFO enthusiasts and promoters. Well, good luck, say
>I! Make life more interesting than it already is with terrorists
>everywhere! Heh, who wants a peaceful and safe world? Or at
>least one that seems that way!

<snip>

>Truth! You (or at least society) can't handle the truth. What
>kind of people do you think make up society anyway? These people
>are generally poorly educated, listen to/watch Howard Stern and
>sports. Don't weigh them down with this burden which you are
>demanding of the government! What you should do, if you really
>think its necessary, is ask for funding to research the topic
>(after showing the good, peer reviewed data and the potential
>threats of the phenomena). However, even then I would hope the
>funding is secret and results released after assessment of
>consequences.

<snip>

>The citizens can complain if they are being bothered by UFOs,
>etc., of course. But really, it is the UFO research communities
>responsibility to gather quality data and present the case to
>the media and government (if YOU dare take on the responsiblity
>of panic induced deaths caused by the realisation that we can't
>STOP UFOs and their obvious hostile behavior!).

<snip>

Mr. Smith,

Are you being serious or facetious in your comments about the
need for governmental secrecy to prevent societal chaos? Those
of us who believe in attempting to maintain representative
democracy in our respective nations would like to know.


Kind regards,

Erik Landahl








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   Oct > Oct 21

                               4400's Landing

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 06:43:59 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 06:43:59 -0400
Subject: 4400's Landing




Source: The New York Post

http://www.nypost.com/entertainment/32319.htm

10-21-04


4400's Landing

October 21, 2004 -- It's official. There will be another season
of The 4400, the record holder for the highest-rated debut in
basic cable history.

The 4400 became a surprise hit for USA in July, premiering to
7.4 million total viewers, eclipsing previous record holder "The
Dead Zone by 1 million.

The six-hour series, which starred Joel Gretsch and Peter
Coyote, chronicled UFO abductees who returned to Earth with
mysterious powers.

Production on a new set of 13 episodes will begin in February in
anticipation of a June launch, officials said.

Most of the original cast is expected to return.

=97 Post wire services








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   Oct > Oct 21

                      Re: Betty Hill Obituaries - Koch

From: Joachim Koch <lists.nul>
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 12:18:49 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 06:48:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Betty Hill Obituaries - Koch


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 20:29:28 -0300
>Subject:Betty Hill Obituaries

>I also talked about Betty on Coast to Coast for a few minutes
>Monday night and offered copies of my last couple of hundred
>booklets, The Zeta Reticuli Incident, by Terence Dickinson,
>about the star map work by Marjorie Fish, for $5 - from  me at
>POB 958, Houlton, ME 04730-0958.(including Shipping). I suspect
>they will go rapidly. Canadians only $6.25 from 79 Pembroke
>Cres, Fredericton, NB E3B 2V1. I have seen it on the Internet.
>Ink costs for printing would be excessive.
>

Hello List, Hello Stanton,

You sent this booklet to me years ago (thank you again) and
according to my understanding it represents a rather
conservative point of view because it discusses and rules out
every solution other than Zeta Reticuli.

After all these years,I wonder why you don't distribute the
booklet for free to those on this List who have a special
interest in this incident?

Completely for free for all and easy to access are our 'New
Discoveries in Betty Hill's Star Map'. I have written
previously, on this List, that if you count one to one according
to what Betty originally said, you come to the fact that it must
not necessarily have been a 'star map' that Betty saw.

After having thoroughly analyzed what Betty had said and what is
presented in Fuller's book and what she said later in the first
TV documentaries (we have the texts on the website) we came to
the conclusion that it would be impossible that she could
identify the location 'where the earth was' in a map with
distant star systems (without planets shown!) and because 'the
leader' knew this - he had asked her about her astronomical
knowledge before - it is not very reliable that he would have
shown her something so complicated as a star map naturally is
rather than something she could identify much easier as a
starter - her own planetary system.

If the sceptics would give in here and would concede this
possibility, we easily could start anew!

Amazingly, we found out by pure astronomical analysis that the
positions of the inner and middle planets and some of the major
and very interesting planetoids (asteroids) in our planetary
system one month around the time the abduction took place match
completey the famous 'Betty Star Map' pattern. And it would be
something Betty could verify and crosscheck and understand with
her own abilities later on.

Please make up your own mind by visiting our website at:

http://www.kochkyborg.de

and click there on 'Betty Hill Case'.

I feel a little bit uneasy and I don't want to violate the rules
of piety by writing the above so shortly after her passing. But
Stanton's selling advertisement of this old conservative though
fine illustrated and well printed booklet forced me to tell you
again about our new discoveries in Betty Hill's star map.


Regards,

Joachim Koch



-----------------------------------------
Breaking news about Project Toliman see:
http://www.kochkyborg.de
The latest of German Crop Circle Research
Requests for lectures under:
protoliman.nul
-----------------------------------------








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   Oct > Oct 22

                          Filer's Files #44 - 2004

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul>
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 15:15:40 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 08:03:03 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files  #44 - 2004


Filer's Files #44 - 2004, Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern
Vice President of Skywatch International
October 20, 2004, Webmaster: Chuck Warren

Flying Cylinders

The purpose of these files is to report the UFO eyewitness and
photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the
world and in space as reported each week. Many people claim it
is impos sible for aliens to visit Earth, I ask you only to keep
an open mind and watc h the evidence we accumulate each week.
These Files make the assumption that extraterrestrial
intelligent life exists and my hypothesis is that of t he over
one hundred UFO reports each week many represent factual UFO
sight ings in our skies. Jupiter - Cylinder UFO and amazing
artifacts on Mars.

UFOs were seen over Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey
Pennsylvan ia, Florida, Tennessee, Illinois, Texas, Colorado,
California, Washington, Canada, Mexico, UK, Poland, and Kuwait.
Betty Hill dies at 85.

Saturn --C ylinder Image Captured by Cassini Huygens Satellite

N000583.jpg was taken on October 18, 2004 and received on
Earth October 19, 2004. The camera was pointing toward SATURN at
approximately 3,842,595 kilometers away, and the image was taken
using the UV1 and CL2 filters. This image has not been validated
or calibrated. A validated/calibrated image will be archived
with t he NASA Planetary Data System in 2005. Full-Res:
N000583.jpg ht
tp://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/images/raw/raw-images-
details.cfm?feiIm ageID3D24788 Photo was rotated 90 degrees.
Thanks to JPL.


Intelligent life on Mars.

We are not certain that this life is still functionin g, but we
are finding artifacts almost daily that were left at some point
in time by intelligent life forms. A 1960 Brookings Institute
report entiled Proposed Studies on the Implication of Peaceful
Space Activi ties for Human Affairs urges NASA to seek to
control any evidence of extraterrestrial life for reasons of
public security, because societies have disintegrated when they
had to associate with previously unfamiliar societies espousing
different ideas and a way of life. NASA was f ormed in 1958, in
the height of the Cold War, when advances in space were used to
protect the United States. < /DIV> NASA is responsible to the
government rather than to the people. No laws compel it to share
information openly with the public. < /DIV> The revealing of
previous civilizations on Mars will likely be handled very
slowly.

 NASA and President Clinton announced in August of 1996, the
possibility of microfossils had been found in meteorite ALH84001
organisms on a ro ck 600,000 years old from Mars. This is
relatively recent and would be a good chance for life to
continue. Recently, evidence of water sp;on the Planet has been
confirmed. Scientists believe where there is water there is
life.

Our research appears to have found evidence of:We have found a
series of pyramids, faces, paper thin rock, and writing similar
to those found on Earth in Egypt and Mexico. These connections
indicate some sort of communication between the two planets. We
can speculate that astronauts visited Mars some 4000 years ago
or their data was carried h ere either by Martians or other
space travelers. The similarities of design and structure seem
much too complicated to be by chance.

Wonderful Wopmay

This three-dimensional view from the navigation camera on NASA's
Mars Exploration Rover Opportunity shows an unusual, lumpy rock
informally named Wopmay on the lower slopes of Endurance Crater.
Opportunity took the frames that make up this image on the
rover's 250th martian day, or sol, on Oct. 6, 2004. Later,
Opport unity investigated the rock with instruments on its
robotic arm.

Th e rock's informal name refers to Wilfrid Reid Wop May, a
Canadian bush pilot. Scientists believe that the lumps in
Wopmay, like traits of Escher and other rocks dotting the bottom
of Endurance Crater, may be related to cracking and alteration
processes, possibly caused by expo sure to water. The area
between intersecting sets of cracks appears to hav e eroded in a
way that shaped the lumpy appearance. Wopmay measures
approximately 1 meter (3.3 feet) across.

Note: At the top right portion of the rock t here appears to be
several faces both large and small. The chin of a face rests on
the X. Image thanks to JPL.


Mars - Paper Thin Rock?

Kevin McCartney writes, I have an image for your Mars section. I
ha ve seen all the so-called artifacts from the rovers posted on
yours and other s ites. I'm not necessarily convinced by what I
have seen, but I was doing some of my own investigation of the
images on the NASA Rovers site. I happened across this one and
it peaked my interest. First, I don't know that I h ave seen a
thin flat rock that is perfectly rectangular like this one. So a
s I zoomed in, it appeared to have two (2) rows of writing or
text across t he bottom of the object. Stranger, it appears the
writing is in a cursive font and written in familiar language.
Obviously this one has been there for a while as it is buried in
dirt, so NASA can't say it was a tag from the Spirit rover.
Unfortunately like the others, the image resolution is to o low
to get a good look when you zoom in21 But, maybe you could give
me you r thoughts. Thanks, I really enjoy your site... keep up
the go od work Original photo number:
P145583524EFF3500P2552L7M1.jpg Thanks to Kevin McCartney, Stow,
Ohio


Massachusetts - Strobing Lights

THREE RIVERS -- The witness was sit ting outside talking to a
lady friend on September 26, 2004, at 8:30 PM, whe n he noticed
a star like object hanging very low in the sky. It sat above th
e trees strobing, pulsing and shifting from blue to green, to
red t o white to orange. It appeared to be rotating, so he
waited 15 minut es and determined it was moving. The witness
went next door and got his fr iend Mike to witness the object.
He's a skeptic so the first thing out of hi s mouth was That's
an airplane. The witness told him how long he ha d been
watching, and his friend agreed, That's not an airplane21  It
was at that point that another witness became involved. We
watched this thing as it moved, pulse shifted in color, and
looked at times like it was splittin g itself apart in separate
lights. It then dropped behind the trees as tw o possible
fighter jets moved in on its position. Then it took off leavin g
a trail of white light in its passing. Thanks to Peter Davenport
Director , www.ufocenter.com

New York - Light

MIDDLE ISLAND - The observer saw a b right light in the sky on
September 26, 2004, at 10:15 PM that was moving lik e an
airplane. The light was not blinking and it was moving in a
straight li ne across the night sky from the west to east. The
observer didn't hear an y engine noises and there were no clouds
in the sky. He states, When i t got into the center of the clear
sky, it suddenly disappeared and was compl etely gone from my
view. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director, www.u focenter.com

BATAVIA - The observer was exiting the NewYork Th ruway and
observed for several seconds a tear dropped shaped
fireball/craft enveloped in what looked like butane-colored
light/flame. It was a buta ne colored craft/fireball descending
from SE to SW across sky on September 26, 2004, at 8:05 PM.  It
left no trail and descended from above to beneath the cloud
deck. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director, www.u focenter.com New
Jersey -- Sphere

HIGHWAY 287 -- A friend called me while on the road to tell me
about bright lights in the sky that hovered, then disappeared
rapidly. On September 23, 2004, at 8:50 PM. He said, He saw
stationary multicolored blinking lights in the sky for a few
seconds, then they moved off at a great speed, leaving a trac
er. Since my friend has about ZERO imagination, I believe he saw
something strange. P.S. He called me because of my flight
experience and military background. Thanks to Peter Davenport
Director, www.ufoce nter.com

Pennsylvania - Three Lights

PHILADELPHIA --On September 26, 2004, at 10:15 PM the couple had
just finished dinner at the Moshulu Restaurant that is located
on board a sailing ship in the Delaware River and went up to the
upper deck to sit. I was looking over the edge of the boat, and
my friend asked me, Wh at is that? We spotted three lights,
flying in a triangle shape, and thoug ht it could be an airplane
coming into the nearby Philly airport. The lights were south of
where we were. Other planes were also flying that night. It be
came apparent that it wasn't a single plane when the two lights
at the botto m of the formation seemed to weave, move around,
and perhaps changes positio ns. The upper light may have also
moved, but the bottom two were definitely moving. The formation
was moving west. We continued to watch, as they < /DIV> seemed
to move either further away, or became lost in clouds. We could
see that the upper light was a bright white, the bottom two were
dimme r or smaller, and of a different hew. It looked different
from any of th e planes. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director,
www.ufocenter.com

STRATTANVILLE -- The witness opened the door to let in the dog
and noticed a bright o range light hanging in the sky to the
west on September 24, 2004, at 8:19 PM. It was really bright. He
watched it for about ten minutes and the light disappeared but
came back into sight with four flashing strobe lights t hat flew
slowly to the east, then up and out of sight. It was a clear
dark night. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director,
www.ufocenter.com Florida - Diamond

BRANDON - A married couple were enjoying their spa when they saw
object(s) flying in tight formation on September 27, 2004, at
6:30 PM. The lights were on the underside of an odd shaped
craft. They had just spent three rough days when Hurricane J
eanne came through their area on Sunday. They are familiar with
seeing all si zes of airplanes, satellites, the ISS and
occasionally a shooting star. The witness reports, My husband
pointed out either several smaller objec ts flying in a tight
formation or one big object with sharp edges silhouet ted with
multiple lights on the underside, all in a tight but sort of
flexi ble pattern. It was flying at about the speed that most
big airliners would be flying, but at lower altitude. It was
flying west from Orlando toward t he Gulf of Mexico. The object
changed more to the southwest, but stayed in a tight formation,
which is why without our eyeglasses, we are not certai n if it
was one large object or several smaller ones. It almost looked
like how geese fly but these had lights on them. Our first
thought was that it might be something like like the Flying
Angel's small fighter jets flying in a nighttime formation up
very high. Thanks to Peter Dave nport Director,
www.ufocenter.com

Tennessee - Flying Triangle

MURFREESBORO - A D elta shaped object was seen flying toward
Nashville on September 27, 2004, a t 11 PM. The witnesses heard
the dogs barking so they went outside to investigate. They saw
two lights turning in formation. At first, they thought these
lights were landing lights, but one light made a slight m otion
separate from the second. The lights moved northwest and
appeared to merge. Then, they noted the craft was Delta shaped
with about six headlights on the underside of the Delta. A low
roar or possible sound was heard as the craft flew northwest out
of view. Thanks to Peter Davenpor t Director, www.ufocenter.com

Wisconsin - Light

THORP - The observers are a married couple in their late 50's
who report seeing thr ee to four huge circles of light in the
western sky, but bright as the moon on September 29, 2004, at
8:20 PM. There were three moon size lights in a horizontal row
along WSW horizon that was visible for only seconds. They
appeared again seconds later and disappeared again. They seemed
five or so miles away and their color was off-white and the
shape of each light wa s circular. When the lights reappeared
they both saw them. The witne sses claimed, We have never seen
anything like it before21 Thanks to Peter Davenport Director,
www.ufocenter.com

Texas - Maneuvering Sphere
MEMPHIS - The witness was traveling from Childress to Memphis
when he saw a small bright circle in the western sky above the
setting sun on September , 2004 at 7 PM. It was very bright like
a st ar. It just hung there for a few minutes. Then it
disappeared. Soon it reappeared with a short tail like it was a
jet beginning to leave a contrail; however, it was very short
and then disappeared. Then I saw another one and the same thing
happened. A long light bloomed into a lo ng streak. He states, I
saw the shiny sphere before it started doing maneuvers. Thanks
to Peter Davenport Director, www.ufocenter.co m

Idaho - UFO

MARSING -- We saw a UFO in the clear au tumn night traveling
across the sky in a SE direction toward an Air Force Ba se. The
craft was see at around 10:10 PM, near Homedale, Idaho on
September , 2004. My son saw it f irst because he has seen them
before around the Jordan Valley, Oregon area and reporte d it on
this site earlier this year.

The night sky was clear and no other aircraft was seen. It was
moving in a southeast direction at a low altitude but at some
distance away. It ha d flashing lights in sequence but they
couldn't distinguish the shape. Once my so n and husband and
hired hand arrived home here in Marsing, they called me ou tside
to witness it. When it lit up again it was still headed
southeast ; towards Mountain Home Air Force Base and that was
the last time we saw it It was incred ible to see such a site.
Thanks to Peter Davenport Director, www.ufocente r.com

Arizona - Flying Triangle

PHOENIX - The witnesses state, We were d riving on 60 West in downtown
Phoenix to our hotel room on September 28, 2004, at 8:15 PM, when my
fiancC3A9 and I saw a HUGE triangle object hoveri ng near the Phoenix Airport.
The object had about 25-50 red LED style lights fading on and off slowly. On
each tip of the triangle, there was a white light . There was no noise, it
was silent. It appeared to be hovering or moving at a real slow pace. There
were two airplanes flying around the craft appear ing to inspect the huge
UFO. The planes looked like ants compared to the hu ge craft. As we drove along
the highway, we lost sight of it near Dunlap Avenue. Traffic on the highway
appeared to take notice too as we slowed down to 55 mph. A police car was
next to us observing the UFO with us. We ha d our digital camera with us and
were able to take photos and video of the UF O. Because it was night, the
photos and video are blurry, but you can clea rly make out the object's shape
with the red lights hovering over Phoenix, AZ. Unreal.

((NUFORC Note: We have looked at the photos, and although th ey
are ambiguous, they do look to be somewhat interesting.
Strangely, NUFO RC has received no other report about the
alleged event. PD)) Thanks to Pe ter Davenport Director,
www.ufocenter.com

40 MI S. OF PHOENIX -- (Six bright lights .)

On September 23, 2004, at 9:30 PM six bright, golden lights
similar to the Phoenix lights of 1997, danced across the desert
sky were seen separate and perfectly angled from one another.
Two of the lights we re vertical to one another and appeared to
be separated by at least a thousand feet. The other 4 lights, if
connected, would have made a perfect square. < /DIV> I could not
tell the distance at all. It was a clear night over the de sert.

The lights could have been five miles away, or 30 miles. The
ligh ts then disappeared, sometimes two at a time, sometimes
one. Then, they wo uld immediately appear maybe a mile to the
west of where they had just been seconds before. Again perfectly
spaced from one another. At one point, one of the lights
vanished and immediately like a strobe effect, they moved across
the sky for maybe half a mile, then vanished. The lights would a
ppear for about 5 seconds, then vanish for 10 minutes, then show
again. I hav e been an airline pilot for over a decade and have
never seen anything like this. There were no beacons, no
navigation lights. These things did not appear to be helicopters
for they moved to smoothly through the sky with no vibration on
the lights, and much too quickly.

Could it have been military? Possible. But, an aircraft we are
not privy to know about. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director,
www.ufoce nter.com

California -- Cylinder UFO

MODESTO -- R. David Anderson writes, This ufo has been getting
closer. Those utility wires run almost at the border of the
property line of my back yard . Between shots the UFO completly
fades from view for a few minutes, then it suddenly reappears in
another location a little more to th e west each time. Those
power lines are directly west of my yard, wherea s the sequoia
tree in the first picture is to the southwest ( in my neighbor's
ya rd ) So the UFO would appear suddenly as a very bright
object, ( bri ghter than Venus ) staying at this intensity for
about 10 seconds, and then sudde nly lift upwards and fade out
in one motion. This is how this UFO al ways appears and leaves.
It just fades out and is gone.

Thanks to R. David Anderson

Washington - Sphere Over Base

BREMERTO N NAVAL BASE -- OK, I'm giving this report for my
friend who called me as he was watching this event through a
monocular On September 21, 2 004, at 8:40 PM. I will give you
his email address also but for some reason he hasn't reported
this as of yet. I'm urging him to and I'm sure he will, but for
now here is the information I have.

He lives in view of the Bremerton shipyard approximately a mile
north from the water. He told m e tonight that this was the
third time he has seen this in the last couple of months. What
was described to me was two balls of light, one bigger than the
other, both hovering over the water and changing colors rapidly
from blue to red to green to white then staying white and pulsa
ting, then going back to rapidly changing colors. One would move
slowly to th e left and then come back. The other stayed there,
hovering and moving to the left then right then holding
position. The bigger one finally moved off to the left then
vanished instantly, the smaller one stayed there until fi nally
moving off and getting smaller, then gone. I was on the phone
with him while he was describing this to me. The first time he
called me afte r seeing these same objects was a couple months
ago and I can get the det ails of that sighting, also. On both
previous sightings he ran into the hous e to get his binoculars
or monocular and when he returned to the deck they w ere gone.
Tonight, he had the monocular with him and watched the whole
time . I could tell he was quite impressed with what he was
seeing and kept sayi ng God, what is that, I don't know but it's
not helicopters or military planes, I'll tell you that much.
Then, they were gone and our conver sation basically ended a
minute or so later. I told him I would send a l ink to your
website and also report the incident myself. He agreed on Septe
mber 27, 2004, at 7:40 PM. So, since I have actually sent a
picture of someth ing in to you before, I decided to report this
first, and then let you purs ue an email conversation with him
if you wish. Thanks to Peter Davenport Dire ctor,
www.ufocenter.com

SNOQUALMIE PASS/BLEWETT PASS --The wife and I were returning
from mushroom hunting in the Blewitt Pass/Snoqualmie pass area
on Saturday afternoon on September 27, 2004, about 7:45 PM. We
stopped by a river to fish around 7pm, and I decided to rest a
bit, and have a smoke brea k and watch my wife fish the river.
The sun was going down over th e mountains, and the sky was
clear. There were some faint stars becoming visible and I looked
up towards the northeast, over a mountain and saw an unusual
looking 'star'. I say 'unusual' because it wasn't a 'whitish'
color but more of a whitish/bluish color, about half t he size
of the North Star.

I watched this object for a minute, and then realized it was
movin g very slowly, appearing to be coming towards us. It was
difficult to est imate the distance or altitude of the 'star',
but I would guess it to be at a round 7500 AGL, and I can't even
guess at the distance. I am a commercial pil ot and have been
flying for close to 30 years, so I know what aircraft and other
types of objects look like. Anyway, about two minutes later, the
object got brighter, again with a bluish tint, and it appeared
to be coming toward us. There was no noise, and at this time, I
yelled to my wife t o come look at this object. She came over,
and quickly ran to our SUV to get my binoculars. I stood
watching the object while she was lookin g through the
binoculars, saying...Oh my God2121...

I got a look through the binoculars and could make out what
looke d to be a perfectly round, translucent 'orb', with lights
around the oute r 'edge', if there is such a thing, on a round
object. About this t ime, the hairs on the back of my neck were
standing straight out, and I got this very uncomfortable feeling
of being 'watched'. I was probably mumbling something while
watching this thing for another minute, and then, suddenly, it
shot straight up and disappeared. It was one of most unusual
objects my wife or I have ever witnessed. T here was no noise
from the craft, and where we were fishing, there was no so und
at all. We could not even hear the sound of the river, since the
water was so low, it was dead silent. I would estimate that we
watched it for about 4 to 5 minutes total. The sky was clear at
the time and no other aircraft were flying in the area. Thanks
to Peter Davenport Director, www .ufocenter.com
Canada -Teardrop

GLECHIEN - Three identical bright white objects with contrails
were seen reentering the atmosphere on September 27, 2004, at
7:30 PM. The couple grabbed binoculars, and the objects appeared
to be extre mely high up and moving fast in a shallow descent
towards earth with two contrails coming from the rear at 45-
degree angles. Then, two more iden tical objects appeared at an
equal distance apart. All were traveli ng in the same direction
from north to the west towards the sun. They resembl ed
ballistic missiles reentering the atmosphere, or what I would
imagine ballistic missiles entering the atmosphere would look
like. Thanks to P eter Davenport Director, www.ufocenter.com

BRADLEY CREEK, BC -- On September 27, 2004, at 1 PM, a white
round object quickly moved, stopped and hovered overhead
changing direction, then disappeared. My father witnessed a
round white object approaching quickly from the west to the
east. Brought to my brother's and my attention, we watched it
slow, stop and basically do a n erratic change of direction,
resembling say a square, directly overhead . We watched that for
about 30 seconds, when I went for my binoculars and wh en I came
back it was gone. My brother and father said it just vanished.
Tot al time viewed was 2 minutes, maybe slightly longer.

FORT S T. JOHN, BC -- While washing dishes in the evening
October 1, 2004, the witness was looking out the window at 5:30
PM. It was a pleas ant evening with only a couple of clouds
backlit by the evening sun.  There were two jet trails crossing
from the northeast to the southwest from t wo jets that had
passed earlier. This is a regular route for them.&n bsp; I
noticed a worm shaped object slowly traveling from southeast to
the northwest. It was as brilliant as a welding arc and was
traveling in a straight line. I called my husband to come and
see this thing. sp; He did and said it looked like a torpedo. It
had no wings and was narrower at both ends. There were sparkles
at the back end of it.  We watched it until it passed behind a
cloud and we waited for it to emerg e following what we believed
would be its trajectory, but it never emerge d. The whole
incident lasted about three minutes.

Thanks to Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO Research Home - Phone
250 845 2189 email: hbc cufo40telus.net Website:
http://www.hbccufo.com Redirect: http://www.canadianufo.com HBCC
UFO RESEARCH Newsletter


Mexico: UFO Flotilla Over Port

VERACRUZ -- Planeta U FO reports that Ricardo Antonio LC3B3pez
Morales, describes the sighting of a UFO flotilla aro und 11:30
a.m. on October 19, 2004, with a duration of 45 minutes. They
were semi-spherical shining objects that changed color.

A police squad car and a commercial airliner were also present
on the site. He claims that cellular phones were affected and
animals reacted to the passing of the strange objects.. The
following are fragments of the e-mail sent by Mr.

Morales to UFO researcher Ana Luisa Cid:

I was checking my e-mail accounts when I suddenly heard all of
the dogs in my neighborhood barking (including my own). First I
thought it w as some kids who, as always, were taunting the
dogs, but then I noticed my neighbors going outside to see what
was going on. I saw how one of them stared at the sky and began
to say, jokingly: Look, a flight ducks 21 to which I replied:
Those aren't ducks, it's a fleet of UFOs.

 After some 10 minutes of watching the phenomenon, a police
squad car came arou nd during its normal watch, stopped, and its
occupants got out of the unit to see what was happening. They
witnessed the phenomenon and began transmit ting over their
radio to request backup. At the same time, I took out my cell
phone to call a friend who's a helicopter pilot and who also
believes in UFOs and also works for the police aviation unit so
that he would t ake a spin around the area for a look. To my
surprise, my cell phone didn't wo rk (and I had just charged the
battery). I kept trying and the text: LOW BA T or NO SIGNAL
AVAILABLE kept appearing. The same

happened to the squad car--its radio wouldn't work.

They were 23 semi-spherical objects, silver-col ored, flying in
a nearly tight formation. The lead object changed color and th e
others would do the same. When they changed color, the objects
changed formation to form a soccer-goal type formation.



The objects shifted from green to red and began spinning faster
(just looking at them made me feel sick). After spinning for a
minute, they broke formation and vanished into the air, b ut
left us a little reminder of their presence: an odor of burnt
leather or something that was truly unbearable. After that
moment, the police were able to call their base to request
assistance; I phoned my friend but couldn' t get a signal My
cell phone no

longer works like it did before; it can be inferred that the
magnetic field from the objects affected it -- aside from having
stolen my credit, they short-circuited it, since it tu rns on by
itself after being shut off.

The squad car number was 087 Central Se ctor. When I spoke to
the police station to make a report, I was told that no squad
car with that number had been on the scene and that no report
had been f iled over the sighting (a code of silence?)
Translation (c) 2004. Scott Corrales, Institute of Hispanic

Ufol ogy.

UK/England - Cross Shape

KENT - The witness saw two objects rise up into the sky o n
September 29, 2004, at 5:45 PM, and after a short while one
moved away while the other stayed in the same place. He called
to his family and they go t out the binoculars and they watched
as one turned on to its side. This craf t was a cross shape and
it started to rise slowly. The other one stayed uprig ht and it
was a saucer shape with a quite high dome and what appeared to b
e legs. We continued to watch and it moved to the side rising up
an d disappeared with the two objects moving together and then
apart. Tha nks to Peter Davenport Director, www.ufocenter.com

DUNSTABLE -- On September 24, 2004, at midnight as we were
walking home I noticed an object that appeared to be flying
sideways . I carried on walking and thought nothing more of it.
I then noticed a humming noise behind me. I turned and saw the
teardrop shaped object about 15 meters above me. I began to run;
the next thing I saw was a smaller teardro p object drop out of
the craft. I ran into my house and hid. During the nights that
followed I still could see the object, I told my friend but she
does not believe me. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director,
www.ufocenter.com

Poland - Six bright sphere lights seen above Warsaw

WARSAW sp; -- On September 27, 2004, at 7:40 PM, I went to the
balcony to smoke a cigarette and as always I looked into the
skies. About 19:40 (CET) I sa w six bright, orange lights moving
across the sky with a huge speed. It is hard to say what was the
altitude of these objects. They were moving from east to south.
The objects we re seen for about five to six seconds and they
just flew into space. Some people on the street shouted: Did
you see that? So th ey must have spotted the lights, too. The
craft did not fly in any kind o f formation; there was no sound
or other unusual activity. There were some aircraft in the
vicinity, so they may have observed the lights, too. Th anks to
Peter Davenport Director, www.ufocenter.com

Kuwait - Light

KUWAIT CITY -- On September 27, 2004, at 7:40 PM, the witness
noticed a red small light northeast of the city that flew and t
hen came back brighter. It wasn't moving then it suddenly turned
off. The witness waited for two minutes, but that is all he saw.
Thanks to Peter Davenport Director, www.ufocenter.com


BETTY HILL DIES:

One of the great ladies of Ufology passed away October 17, 2004,
at the age of 85. Betty struggled with cancer for the past year.
I once had a wonderful dinner and conversation with Betty who
was vivacious and full of wonderful stories. She showed me many
of the photos she had obtained through the years of UFOs. The
legendary 1961 abd uction event of Betty and her late-husband B
arney Hill is what Betty is best known for, but she had many
other exc iting stories. She was a spirited and special person
who I will grea tly miss.

The Greater UFO/E T Congress of 2004

Will be held November 6 and 7th 2004, 11:00 am to 3:00 pm
Saturday and Sunday at the T he Days Inn, Route 206 & NJTP Exit
237 North Bordentown NJ, 609-298-6100 For more information visit
www. DRUFO.org or phone Pat Marcattillio (609) -631-8955 or Tom
Benson (609)-883-69 26 after 6:00 PM.


PLEASE DONATE TO KEEP THESE FILES COMING

Dear Readers - Filer's Files has been brought to you free
on a weekly basis for seven years. As of January 2004,
requesting a donatio n of 2424 per year to enable me to continue
with Filer's Files. T hese files cannot exist without your
help. Donations can be sent to: https://www.payp al.com/cgi-
bin/webscr for majorstar40aol.com

You may use Paypal, Visa, American Express, or Master Charge.
 You can also mail your check to George Filer, 2 Jackson
Road, Medford, NJ 08055 .

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL. ; A MUFON membership
includes the Journal and costs only 2445.00 per year.s p; To
join MUFON or to report a UFO go to http://www.mufon.com/.  T o
ask questions contact MUFONHQ40aol.com or HQ40mufon.com. The
MUFON Journal is now acce pting qualified advertising, please
call 1 (303) 932-7709 for more information.

Filer's Files is copyrighted 2004 by George A. Filer, all rights
reserved. Readers may post the COMPLETE files on their Web
Sites if t hey credit the newsletter and its editor by name and
list the date of issue. sp; These reports and comments are not
necessarily the OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
Majorstar40aol.com. Sending ma il automatically grants
permission for us to publish and use your name.  Please state
if you wish to keep your name or e-mail confidential. CAUTION,
MOST OF THESE ARE INITIAL REPORTS AND REQUIRE FURTHER
INVESTIGATION.

Regards,

George A. Filer

www.GeorgeFiler.com/







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   Oct > Oct 22

              Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof -

From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 08:43:49 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:59:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof -


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:08:29 -0500
>Subject: Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof

>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 12:32:17 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof

><snip>

>>My response to young Mr. Sakulich:

>>Dear Mr. Sakulich,

><snip>

>>My advice is to seek a career in politics =97 you=92re a natural for
>it!


>Kudos, Frank!!!

>And I could recommend a political party that seemingly was
>_made_ for a guy like Sakulich. When a "true believer" like him
>runs up against the "reality-based" community, he starts to look
>like an eccentric, or worse, a candidate. I imagine he also
>believes that global warming is a hoax, and that Saddam Hussein
>instigated 9/11.

>It used to be the college students who fomented rage against the
>machine. Poor Aaron heralds the new paradigm...student as pundit
>for the machine. Events like Tiananmen Square and Kent State
>would never happen with guys like this. Progress?

>Odd though, his dismissive manner reminds me so much of Nancy
>Lieder that I get this odd involuntary lip-curl...ick.

>My suspicion? He's an alien disinformation agent, probably with
>a persecution complex. <joking>

>Get help Aaron, there's still time to undo the harm that has
>befallen you... take a real science course quick, and pay
>attention! <not joking>


Dear Kyle and Frank (and others):

I've corresponded with Mr. Sakulich, who seems to be a fine
fellow, taking the stance about UFOs (and related phenomena)
which is held by the skeptical younger set (and many oldsters
also I'm afraid).

Several responses from UFO aficionados (to my e-mail address)
about a few of my posts here indicate that many have stopped
visiting UFO Updates or other UFO forums because of the nasty
colloquys, between UFO icons and those who are more interested
in a heated back-and-forth rather than finding out what UFOs
have been and are.

Mr. Sakulich presents a cogent summary of the anti-UFO set...
those who haven't seen something strange in the sky (or on the
ground) or those who haven't studied the topic.

Frank Warren's step-by-step rebuttal of Mr. Sakulich's
presentation, while not thorough, was a nice offset, and it
should evoke responses from those who believe in UFOs or know
things that newbies don't - no matter how tiresome it is to
repeat, ad nauseum, ad eternum. ad infinitum, the arguments and
stories replete within the UFO history.

I, for one, love the "clarifications" of Stanton Friedman,
Richard Hall, Jerry Clark, et alii, even though I've heard them
many times before.

UFOs, like philosophy, theology, and other unresolved
existential issues, should invite all comers, even those who
doubt. Bashing them for their non-belief creates a stasis, which
I don't think will help resolve the UFO mystery... but I could
be wrong.


Rich Reynolds
Fort Wayne MediaWatch








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   Oct > Oct 22

                          Betty Hill's Conclusions

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 09:55:04 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 11:00:39 -0400
Subject:  Betty Hill's Conclusions


I'm still reeling from Miss Betty's passing so I'll try to
gather what little wits I've left to bring this topic to the
table.

I recall Miss Betty stating somewhere that her conclusion was
her abductors weren't aliens but from a civilization 25,000
years ahead of us.

I know I've read that quote in one of the multiple obits and
stories that have emerged since her passing.

For those of you who'd interviewed her in depth what did she
make of her abductors? If they weren't aliens what were they?
Was she suggesting time travellers of some sort or a human like
colony more terrestrial or originating terrestrially and having
gone on to other star systems and returning?

Makes sense either way to me.


Best,

Greg








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   Oct > Oct 22

                Re: all To Action - Canadian UFO Information

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 10:08:29 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 11:04:30 -0400
Subject: Re: all To Action - Canadian UFO Information


>From: Erik Landahl <landahl1.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 22:26:56 -0700
>Subject: Re: Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information Project

>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 11:45:43 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>>Subject: Re: Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information Project

<snip>

>Mr. Smith,

>Are you being serious or facetious in your comments about the
>need for governmental secrecy to prevent societal chaos? Those
>of us who believe in attempting to maintain representative
>democracy in our respective nations would like to know.


Dear Mr. Landahl,

I get asked the same question alot by others.

Yes, I am serious, not I am not being facetious.

No I am not a government disinformation specialist, although to
the best of my knowledge there is no way to prove this.

No, I am not an alien either but dittos on proving it.

I have pointed out in separate threads about "Are UFOs Hostile?"
and "UFO Disclosure Scenarios" that there are some circumstances
where panic and chaos will occur if "Disclosure" is perfomed by
the government.

Since the only way to know which Scenario would occur, it would
be necessary for the government to be forced to "Disclose".
However, when this is done, then the wheels are set into motion
and cannot be stopped. A negative Scenario "Disclosure" would
likely result in negative consequences. How many lives are worth
the "Disclosure" statement by the government? Will you now rest
peacefully knowing you were right even though less enlightened
souls would be out there doing a "Heaven's Gate" or other forms
of disrupted social behavior? Can you trust the government
whatever it says, even if it backed you up 100%?

My point is that there is really no reason for the government to
disclose anything, its not in there best interests and, as they
see it, its not in the best interest of a stable social fabric.
Also, inherently, it is impossible to know if they are telling
you the truth, you must simply trust them. Is that enough?

Therefore, rather than wait for hand-outs by the government of
whatever they choose to release for whatever reason, we as UFO
researchers, should gather our own data, stuff some more
organization and discipline and technical tools into the work.
It seems that the old days had some higher quality
organizations, APRO, NICAP, MUFON, but organizations die or
wither with time. Excellent work by Ray Stanford and all the
tools he brought to bear during Project Starlight also hale from
those days, have they been duplicated? Given our technology
advancements, have we stretched beyond Mr Stanford's
groundbreaking work, I don't think so. Using lasers and multi-
 spectral cameras and passive radar, we could ignore the
government and issue our own press releases (if we dare). On the
other hand, if we care about the effects on society, we may
choose to NOT disclose even if we find out the Truth.

My main problem is that some ufologists seem to ignore the
effects certain pronouncements would have on society. They seem
to accept the risk, even if that may mean unknown death counts.


Regards,

James







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   Oct > Oct 22

                               Web-Site Links

From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 09:26:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 11:06:28 -0400
Subject: Web-Site Links


Because we have been dealing with media for over 15 years, many
reporters and media people of all stripes check out our web-
sites, from a number of cities around the country where media
people we've showcased over the years have ended up, including
New York, Atlanta (CNN), Miami, Chicago, San Francisco, etc.

Many are predisposed to check even our esoteric sites
(fkbureau.org, quandary.net, and arcanum.ws, to name a few).

Therefore, if any List readers have a web-site that they might
like linked from our web-sites, please drop me a line at
rrrgroup.nul with your site's web address, and we'll add it
to the appropriate sites.

We can list a significant number of sites.

Rich Reynolds
InterAmerica, Inc.
Fort Wayne Mediawatch
PMB 150, 619 E. Dupont Road
Fort Wayne, IN 46825
260-637-9810







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   Oct > Oct 22

                            Betty Hill Credible?

From: Bryan Daum <bryandaum.nul>
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 09:40:15 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 11:11:52 -0400
Subject: Betty Hill Credible?


I met Betty Hill twice in the late '70s. She was nice but maybe
not credible.

On the first occasion of meeting her she was speaking at the
Pease Air Force Base library where she told her story and spoke
of her local group of interested persons reporting sightings and
etc. in the New Hampshire/New England area. She lived nearby in
Portsmouth maybe ten blocks from my home. Sometime, maybe a year
or more after hearing her presentation I saw 'my' UFO.

I was a junior officer copilot stationed at the base living in
town with my wife when, hurried to leave for my aircraft
commander and friend's house for a barbecue when I saw it while
letting the dog out. It was so odd as it wasn't a 'Flying
Saucer' - it was a large box. I yelled for my wife to come quick
but she was doing her make up... and arrived at the door too
late. I told no one for quite a while, afraid of ridicule or
worse. There was nothing in the paper about others seeing the
same thing. Much later I discussed it with my wife and decided
that I would cruise by Betty Hill's home where I found her
working in her garden. I got out of the car and walked up to the
fence and said hello and asked her if she had heard of such a
box like thing (this was long before the Internet!).

She got real "wide eyed" and said, "Oh, yes! I even seen (she
may have said heard) of some that flap their wings!" -And she
was serious. I thought she was just real crazy and quickly got
into my car and drove away. Before getting out of service I
finally talked to the base's semi-official go to person.

I filed my report via the net years later:

http://www.nuforc.org/webreports/020/S20008.html

This is how I came to this group, in fact, Colm Kelleher,
personally recommended this site when I wrote him dissatisfied
with the NIDS list that was up for a while. I've been reading
this list for quite some time now.

I have never seen another UFO but I'll never think about things
the same. I wonder how many others see something once and find
their thinking changed for ever? How I would love to see one of
the Black Triangles once.

Respectfully,

Bryan









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   Oct > Oct 22

                          Secrecy News -- 10/21/04

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 11:45:39 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 11:13:34 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 10/21/04


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 92
October 21, 2004


**      WHITE HOUSE DISPUTES CIA ON INTEL BUDGET DISCLOSURE
**      CIA CONCEDES RELEASE OF 1963 AGENCY BUDGET
**      WHITE HOUSE OPPOSES NEW CLASSIFICATION REVIEW BOARD
**      NEW RELEASES ON NSA, NUCLEAR WEAPONS
**      DEFINING CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE (CRS)


WHITE HOUSE DISPUTES CIA ON INTEL BUDGET DISCLOSURE

The White House has taken a stand against intelligence budget
disclosure which is directly at odds with the CIA's recent
endorsement of the move.

The 9/11 Commission recommendation to require annual disclosure
of the total national intelligence budget, which was adopted by
the Senate and opposed by the House, has become a prominent
point of contention as House and Senate conferees attempt to
reconcile their competing intelligence reform bills.

The White House elevated the issue by signaling its opposition
to disclosure in a letter to the conferees this week.

"Disclosing to the nation's enemies, especially during wartime,
the amounts requested by the President, and provided by the
Congress, for the conduct of the nation's intelligence
activities would harm the national security," wrote national
security adviser Condoleezza Rice and OMB Director Joshua Bolten
on October 18. See:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2004/10/wh101804.pdf

But the CIA contradicted this White House claim, telling
Congress last month that the Senate's budget disclosure proposal
"would make some sense" and "would [not] be a major security
threat."

"If there is a separate appropriation for the National Foreign
Intelligence Program, as distinct from the current arrangement
where that appropriation is buried in the larger Defense
Department bill, I think it would make some sense to declassify
the overall number for the foreign intelligence program," then-
Acting Director of Central Intelligence John E. McLaughlin said
at a hearing of the Senate Governmental Affairs Committee on
September 8. See:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2004/09/s090804.html

Likewise, 9/11 Commissioners Kean and Hamilton identified budget
disclosure as one of "a few critical issues" in a letter to
House and Senate conferees.

"We believe the overall budget number should be unclassified,"
they wrote. "The benefits of transparency for congressional
oversight and public review are significant" and evidence of
justification for classification is lacking. See their October
20 letter here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2004/10/kh102004.pdf


CIA CONCEDES RELEASE OF 1963 AGENCY BUDGET

The Central Intelligence Agency, which claims that all of its
historical budget figures must be withheld to protect
intelligence sources and methods, conceded yesterday that it has
in fact declassified and released the CIA budget total for
fiscal year 1963.

The release appeared in a 1965 CIA document entitled "Cost
Reduction Program," located at the National Archives by Prof.
David Barrett of Villanova University, and introduced in a FAS
lawsuit to challenge the CIA opposition to budget disclosure.

The 1963 budget figure was correctly cited as $550 million,
affirmed CIA Deputy Chief Financial Officer Cynthia Stockman.
But other budget figures for 1964 to 1966 in the same document
are not correct, she said. See her October 20 declaration here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/foia/1947/stockman.pdf

The 1965 "Cost Reduction Program" report, which was declassified
by CIA in 1990, would not be released today, said R. Bruce
Burke, the CIA Associate Deputy General Counsel for Information.
See his declaration here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/foia/1947/burke.pdf

Notwithstanding the release of the 1963 budget figure, the CIA,
with legal support from the Justice Department Office of
Information and Privacy, argued vigorously that no other
historical intelligence budget information should be disclosed.
Their 25 page memorandum filed yesterday in opposition to the
FAS lawsuit seeking budget disclosure is here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/foia/1947/cia102004.pdf


WHITE HOUSE OPPOSES NEW CLASSIFICATION REVIEW BOARD

The proposal by Senators Trent Lott (R-Miss.) and Ron Wyden (D-
OR) to establish an Independent National Security Classification
Board, which was adopted by the Senate in its intelligence
reform bill, has drawn White House opposition as an unacceptable
affront to executive branch prerogatives.

"The Administration supports the extension of the Public
Interest Declassification Board but opposes section 226 of S.
2845, which would rename the Board as the Independent National
Security Classification Board and create a Congressional right
to appeal classification decisions made by an executive agency
with respect to national security information," wrote
Condoleezza Rice and Joshua Bolten in their October 18 letter to
the House-Senate conferees.

"The authority to make such decisions is clearly vested in the
President and his designated subordinates under the
Constitution." See their letter here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2004/10/wh101804.pdf

Background on the proposed new Board and related issues may be
found in "Secrecy vs. Openness: New Proposed Arrangements for
Balancing Competing Needs," Congressional Research Service,
updated October 12, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/RS21895.pdf


NEW RELEASES ON NSA, NUCLEAR WEAPONS

Notable new releases under the Freedom of Information Act
include historical items on the National Security Agency and on
nuclear weapons.

"The Origins of the National Security Agency, 1940-1952" was
obtained under the FOIA by TheMemoryHole.org and is available
here:

http://www.thememoryhole.org/nsa/origins_of_nsa.htm

Declassified documents on nuclear weapons policy, including
background on a 1958 nuclear weapons accident near Savannah
River Georgia, are available from The Nuclear Information
Project here:

http://www.nukestrat.com/


DEFINING CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE (CRS)

The protection of critical infrastructure is said to be a
central concern of the Bush Administration's homeland security
strategy. But this is an elusive goal in part because the term
lacks a stable definition.

"The meaning of 'critical infrastructure' in the public policy
context has been evolving for decades and is still open to
debate," according to a particularly thoughtful new report from
the Congressional Research Service.

"Since the 1980's, the number of sectors included under that
definition has generally expanded from the most basic public
works to a much broader set of economic, defense, government,
social and institutional facilities."

This is problematic, since "ambiguity about what constitutes a
critical infrastructure could lead to inefficient use of limited
homeland security resources."

So, for example, "private sector representatives state that they
need clear and stable definitions of asset criticality so they
will know exactly what assets to protect, and how well to
protect them. Otherwise, they risk protecting too many
facilities, protecting the wrong facilities, or both."

See "Critical Infrastructure and Key Assets: Definition and
Identification," Congressional Research Service, October 1,
2004:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/RL32631.pdf



_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

Secrecy News has an RSS feed at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood.nul
voice: (202) 454-4691







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                    Re: Betty Hill Obituaries - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 14:25:49 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 11:15:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Betty Hill Obituaries - Friedman


>From: Joachim Koch <lists.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 12:18:49 +0100
>Subject: Re: Betty Hill Obituaries

>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 20:29:28 -0300
>>Subject:Betty Hill Obituaries

>>I also talked about Betty on Coast to Coast for a few minutes
>>Monday night and offered copies of my last couple of hundred
>>booklets, The Zeta Reticuli Incident, by Terence Dickinson,
>>about the star map work by Marjorie Fish, for $5 - from  me at
>>POB 958, Houlton, ME 04730-0958.(including Shipping). I suspect
>>they will go rapidly. Canadians only $6.25 from 79 Pembroke
>>Cres, Fredericton, NB E3B 2V1. I have seen it on the Internet.
>>Ink costs for printing would be excessive.


>You sent this booklet to me years ago (thank you again) and
>according to my understanding it represents a rather
>conservative point of view because it discusses and rules out
>every solution other than Zeta Reticuli.

>After all these years,I wonder why you don't distribute the
>booklet for free to those on this List who have a special
>interest in this incident?

Why should I? I should really raise the price and offer mint
copies at special prices. Maybe on E-Bay? They did cost me
money. Postage isn't free. When they are gone, they are gone.

>Completely for free for all and easy to access are our 'New
>Discoveries in Betty Hill's Star Map'. I have written
>previously, on this List, that if you count one to one according  to
what Betty originally said, you come to the fact that it must
>not necessarily have been a 'star map' that Betty saw.

>After having thoroughly analyzed what Betty had said and what is
>presented in Fuller's book and what she said later in the first
>TV documentaries (we have the texts on the website) we came to
>the conclusion that it would be impossible that she could
>identify the location 'where the earth was' in a map with
>distant star systems (without planets shown!) and because 'the
>leader' knew this - he had asked her about her astronomical
>knowledge before - it is not very reliable that he would have
>shown her something so complicated as a star map naturally is
>rather than something she could identify much easier as a
>starter - her own planetary system.

>If the sceptics would give in here and would concede this
>possibility, we easily could start anew!

>Amazingly, we found out by pure astronomical analysis that the
>positions of the inner and middle planets and some of the major
>and very interesting planetoids (asteroids) in our planetary
>system one month around the time the abduction took place match
>completey the famous 'Betty Star Map' pattern. And it would be
>something Betty could verify and crosscheck and understand with
>her own abilities later on.

>Please make up your own mind by visiting our website at:

>http://www.kochkyborg.de

>and click there on 'Betty Hill Case'.

>I feel a little bit uneasy and I don't want to violate the rules
>of piety by writing the above so shortly after her passing. But
>Stanton's selling advertisement of this old conservative though
>fine illustrated and well printed booklet forced me to tell you
>again about our new discoveries in Betty Hill's star map.

>Joachim Koch

I read your work years ago and again more recently, Joachim.
There was a great deal of arbitrariness in the selection of
asteroids.

I find Marjorie's work far more carefully done.

The Hipparchos data showing that ZR1 and ZR2 are only 1/8th of a
light year apart only underlines their specialness as the
closest to each other pair of sunlike stars and a billion years
older than the sun.

Remember, too, that all the pattern stars are sun-like and in a
plane and that all the sun-like stars in the 3D volume of space
are in the pattern... hardly a coincidence. I also think that
there were some problems in translation. I think the subject was
stars not asteroids or planets


Stan Friedman







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                Re: Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information

From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 17:13:45 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 11:28:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 11:45:43 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>Subject: Re: Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information Project

<snip>

>Don't you want to first assess the dangers of ETI disclosure?
>Why promote, nay, force our elected officials into doing
>something that may cause chaos in our society? "Disclosure"
>sounds so positive and "good"... too bad the dark side is being
>ignored by UFO enthusiasts and promoters.

Well, as a member of a group of at least thousands of this
planet's citizens who are experiencing 100% deniable attacks by
technology which is at the UFO performance class, 24/7, for
years, for life, with some of our members driven to suicide, I
want UFO truth exposed _now_!  It's decades overdue, in my
opinion.

Whether or not the scum who torture us received help from ETs
(or UFO crashes) or not.

At the very least, full UFO disclosure would end, once and for
all, the chronic denial by officials that technology which can
do what we report exists.

In a broader view, the government personnel who know the full
truth are _no_ better than we are, and they are not freaking
out. As Jessie Marcel urged, give the people what they actually
own, and _do_it_now_!


Eleanor White








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               Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings? - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 17:27:12 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 15:57:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings? - White



>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 18:33:01 EDT
>Subject: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings?

>I can't say why the topic of changelings came up, it's not
>appropriate at this moment but it is pertinent to the subject of
>abductions and visitations.

Think how much further ahead abduction investigations might be
if NIDS had had a channelling (remote viewing) department.


Eleanor White








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                       Any 'Unsung' Heroes In Ufology?

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 17:35:47 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 16:01:43 -0400
Subject: Any 'Unsung' Heroes In Ufology?


The Unsung Heroes Of Aviation & Space Flight...

Any 'Unsung' Heroes In Ufology?

Well, in my secret identity I'm also an aircraft, space flight
afficianado. I've noticed many posts here about our space
programs and astronauts.

So one fellow I asked about the 'unsung' heroes of these fields
is good ol' Al Bowers of NASA. He then put up a list of people
he felt deserved the recognition of the public. His list brought
back memories of when I was a kid meeting astronauts and pilots
and ground technicians and such. Brought a tear to m' eye. Back
then it was common to have rubbed elbows with some of these
folks and if you're lucky you can run into some of the
contemporaries at shows or conventions. Many of these folks
still around are probably fans of your works. Take some time at
your next convention to say howdy and double check those fan
letters.

Al's List:


Mark Drela: who's developed and forgotten more techgnology than
I will ever know

Bruce Carmichael: for lifetime accomplishment in laminar flow

Peter Selinger: who is the walking soaring encyclopedia

Ilan Kroo: mentor to the future

Mike Selig: for drive in airfoil development

Dan Somers/Richard Eppler/FX Wortman/Dieter Althaus: airfoil
development

Paul MacCready: for knowing what to do from all the crazy ideas
he has

John McMasters: trying to make sense of outrageous ideas

Ludwig Prandtl: for turning aeronautics into the science it is
today

RT Jones: America's mad scientist

The Schweizer brothers: for making soaring available to the
common American

Mike Riggs: for the first production high aspect ratio hang
gliders

The Horten brothers: duh

Jack Northrop: belief in the way the future should be

Mark Maughmer: chair to the International Sailplane Development
Panel

John Bosworth: flight research engineer to over 800 X-plane
missions (and who hasn't gotten a promotion in over a decade for
his contribution)

Gary Krier: research test pilot of the FIRST digital fly-by-wire
aircraft (talk about courage!)

Mark "Forger" Stucky: flying everything from hang gliders to the
SR-71A including the F-18 HARV and the Eclipse F-106 aero-tow
inbetween

Col Joe Kittinger: for development of bailout techniques upto
103,000 ft msl

The Wright brothers: duh

Col Joe Lanni: chief test pilot of the F/A-22 and wing commander
at Edwards AFB

John Young: going to the Moon TWICE

Gene Cernan: going to the Moon TWICE

Jim Lovell: going to the Moon TWICE and doing it the hard way
one time

Dick Ewers: NASA Research pilot who flew Vietnam, the first gulf
War, and has walked away from TWO crashes and still takes time
to talk to the Boy Scouts

Joe Wilson: NASA (ret) for his wealth of knowledge of handling
qualities

Joe Pahle: NASA engineer and researcher of 20+ years in
controls, and Sunday school teacher

Vance Brand: astronaut and friend, who thinks everyone is better
than he is

Gordon Fullerton: who made the transition from test pilot to
astronaut and back


Another short list:

Freedom 7 05may61 Shepard
Libert Bell 7 21jul61 Grissom

Friendship 7 20feb62 Glenn
Aurora 7 24may62 Carpenter
Sigma 7 03oct62 Schirra
Faith 7 15may63 Cooper


Gemini 3 23mar65 Grissom Young
Gemini 4 03jun65 McDivitt White
Gemini 5 21aug65 Cooper Conrad
Gemini 6A 15dec65 Schirra Stafford
Gemini 7 04dec65 Borman Lovell
Gemini 8 15mar66 Armstrong Scott
Gemini 9A 03jun66 Stafford Cernan
Gemini 10 18jul66 Young Collins
Gemini 11 12sep66 Conrad Gordon
Gemini 12 11nov66 Lovell Aldrin


Apollo 7 11oct68 Schirra Eile Cunningham
Apollo 8 21dec68 Borman Lovell Anders
Apollo 9 03mar69 McDivitt Scott Schweickhart
Apollo 10 18may69 Stafford Young Cernan
Apollo 11 16jul69 Armstrong Collins Aldrin
Apollo 12 14nov69 Conrad Gordon Bean
Apollo 13 11apr70 Lovell Swigert Haise
Apollo 14 31jan71 Shepard Roosa Mitchell
Apollo 15 26jul71 Scott Wordon Irwin
Apollo 16 16apr72 Young Mattingly Duke
Apollo 17 07dec72 Cernan Evans Schmitt

Skylab 2 25may73 Conrad Kerwin Weitz
Skylab 3 28jul73 Bean Garriot Lousma
Skylab 4 16nov73 Carr Gibson Pogue

Apollo Soyuz 15jul75 Stafford Brand Slayton


STS-1 Columbia 12apr81 Young Crippen
STS-2 Columbia 12nov81 Engle Truly
STS-3 Columbia 22mar82 Lousma Fullerton
STS-4 Columbia 27jun82 Mattingly Hartsfield
STS-5 Columbia 11nov82 Brand Overmeyer Allen Lenoir

STS-51l Challenger 29jan86 Scobee Smith Resnik Onizuka McNair
Jarvis McAuliffe

STS-107 Columbia 16jan03 Husband McCool Chawla Anderson Brown Clark Ramon

And that's just for starters. I'd better quit. We'll be here all
day...

Al Bowers







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                          Aliens UFOs And The Bible

From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 20:00:27 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 16:02:52 -0400
Subject: Aliens UFOs And The Bible


Hi Everyone!

This Sunday, October 24, Gary Bates of AIG will be doing a
special presentation on 'Aliens, UFOs and the Bible' from
Australia.

Everyone can watch this and other very fascinating and related
live presentations from Friday to Sunday on their computers, if
they have an Internet connection, or listen to them on shortwave
radio.

Complete details can be found at:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/events/details.aspx?Event_ID=2559

I plan to attend some of the presentations that will originate
from Orangeville, Canada (a short drive by car northwest of
Toronto) in person this weekend.


Nick Balaskas






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                     Out of the Blue video Is Excellent

From: Trevor Page <webmaster.nul>
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 20:40:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 16:03:42 -0400
Subject: Out of the Blue video Is Excellent


Just wanted to pass along that I just received my DVD copy of
Out of the Blue (from Amazon.ca) and this 2 hour video is the
best thing I've ever seen on the subject.

No skeptibunkies, no fluff, just a good push to prove "our"
point of vue. The production values are top-notch, the use of
archive footage is effective and put the government and air
force in a defensive position.

If you have to show something to your friends and family and
want to make an impact on them then this one is for you! I'm
ordering copies for my family for Christmas. Price on Amazon.ca
was less than $18 Canadian, a real bargain.


Trevor Page
HBCCUFO.com Website developer







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                       Re: Gordon Cooper - Scheldroup

From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 20:37:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 16:05:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Scheldroup


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 15:17:24 -0500
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
>>To: UFOUpdates <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 07:41:43 -0500
>>Subject: Gordon Cooper

>I was personally shocked at his landing story. It seems like
>huge news to me. If there was a big book or movie deal about it,
>it would have been a media frenzy.

And... anyone out there has a copy of the Gordo film saucer
landing at Edwards AFB back in 1957, can you kindly send the
original or copy to me so I can let the world take a peak at
it?

You need not worry that I'm gonna profit from, sell, or make a
deal, I am not interested. It will be digitally scanned then I
will upload it to internet sites for all the world to see or
they will draw their own conclusions.

Send the film to me by anonymous mail, but make sure it has no
return address.

I promise to you that the box will be burned that the film or
photos came shipped in.


John Scheldroup
406 E. 9th St.
Superior, WI 54880






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                       Shatner Wants To Go Into Space

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 11:13:27 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 16:06:13 -0400
Subject: Shatner Wants To Go Into Space

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/10/22/branson.space/index.html

Neat story on celebs willing to fork over $200 + grand to fly on
Virgin's commercial orbital flight.


Best,

Greg








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                      Re: Betty Hill Credible? - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 11:21:01 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 16:07:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Betty Hill Credible? - Boone


>From: Bryan Daum <bryandaum.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 09:40:15 -0700
>Subject: Betty Hill Credible?

>I met Betty Hill twice in the late '70s. She was nice but maybe
>not credible.

What?

The woman was college educated, underwent a battery of tests and
a lie detector test if I recall and passed. So either every
criteria modern science uses to validate sanity and truthfulness
is wrong or she was telling the truth from her viewpoint and
corroborated by her husband.

Look at what you've said about your own sighting. You worried
about ridicule. Betty and Barney may have too yet they mustered
up enough courage to overcome their fears and warn the rest of
humanity about something that has been validated umpteen times
over and still growing.

Everything the psychiatrists, military, press throw at abductees
has worn thinner than a belly dancer's last veil.


Best,

Greg








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                Re: Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 12:22:43 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 16:10:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 17:13:45 -0400
>Subject: Re: Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information Project

>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 11:45:43 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>>Subject: Re: Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information Project

<snip>

>>Don't you want to first assess the dangers of ETI disclosure?
>>Why promote, nay, force our elected officials into doing
>>something that may cause chaos in our society? "Disclosure"
>>sounds so positive and "good"... too bad the dark side is being
>>ignored by UFO enthusiasts and promoters.

>Well, as a member of a group of at least thousands of this
>planet's citizens who are experiencing 100% deniable attacks by
>technology which is at the UFO performance class, 24/7, for
>years, for life, with some of our members driven to suicide, I
>want UFO truth exposed _now_! It's decades overdue, in my
>opinion.

I sympathize with your plight. But what can I say? I agree that
this kind of information (harassing citizens using the methods
you describe- not really UFOs or even aliens, but actually the
kind of tech you would expect of ET UFOs or aliens ~1000 yr
advanced) SHOULD be released. It is an outrage if the government
or its representatives are harassing you or these other
citizens. Especially since the harassment seems motiveless and
perverse. I advocate the release of this kind of data because it
seems like the scenarios for public harm are slight, national
security moderate (but tough, screw them I say rather than have
them get their little benefits(?)at the expensive of hurting
citizens), and public good is improved.

The problem I think you and your harassed fellows is that you
cannot find the bastards and back them into a corner and beat
them up! Its always the elusive remote operation and untraceable
perpetrator. Even motiveless! Why torture people for no obvious
gain? Mind control (if it can have a "good" motive) would be
better used to make CEOs/government leaders make the right
decisions or make terrorists/law breakers NOT do bad things. But
the harassors do not seem interested in this kind of work. Why
harass citizens in no place of power or knowledge? If it REALLY
must be done for some unknown reason, why not use test subjects
that are not likely to complain or report such as "expendables"
like illegal immigrants or the thousands of people that
"disappear" each year?

There are alot of questions I have with this harassment concept.
It does seem to happen and can be documented (at least the
subjective effects) but most of the time it seems more like
demonic forces than UFOs or the government. Sure, if the
government wanted to spend millions of dollars to harass a
person they could, and could likely be untraceable, but the
motivation is what bothers me. What is implied is that either
the particular person is very special in some unknown way (I am
sorry but this is generally not true, most of us are rather
unimportant) or that they just randomly want to test torture
people to test their equipment.

This is much like the idea of the government testing their UFO-
like triangles over populated areas. I don't think so. Wouldn't
they NOT want to do this? Sure a little field testing may be
valuable to them, but not at the level we are talking about as
seen in reports.

So I do not really think the government is doing this kind of
testing, but if you can gather evidence this is happening
(suitable to provide your Congressman or network TV), then go
for it! I would think that adequate directional EM monitoring,
motion sensing video recorders, acoustic monitoring, EEG should
be able to provide data. If the frequencies are beyond our tech
to monitor and can be done at a distance then we are screwed and
likely no one will believe you. This almost matches the alien
abduction problem.

My notion is that this harassment is less related to UFOs and
prosaic human agents (criminal or govern.) and more related to
some sort of paranormal activity. Perhaps ghosts, poltergeists,
demons, or some unnamed psychokinetic force.

>Whether or not the scum who torture us received help from ETs
>(or UFO crashes) or not.

Yes, it should be reported because of the human abuse. But if
UFO aliens are doing these harassing things AND the government
cannot do anything about it to prevent it, don't you think the
public would be put into a panic if the government made such a
pronouncement? Maybe it would make matters worse because rather
than have a very small group of harassed,tormented people, you
would have EVERYONE freaking out because they could be next and
there is no way to stop it. How many would commit suicide then?

>At the very least, full UFO disclosure would end, once and for
>all, the chronic denial by officials that technology which can
>do what we report exists.

You presume the government knows and participates in the
harassment activities. Perhaps they either do not know what is
going on, or have no control of it. Why assume the worse, namely
that the government is the evil-doer? Sure it has many problems,
but I do not see the facts that say the government has this
technology. If they disclosed something, who would believe them?
Maybe they made it up? Maybe they release only stuff that makes
them look good? Maybe they release only stuff that makes others
look bad or even discredit the harassed people/UFO concept?

>In a broader view, the government personnel who know the full
>truth are _no_ better than we are, and they are not freaking
>out. As Jessie Marcel urged, give the people what they actually
>own, and _do_it_now_!

Again, you assume they know something about what is going on. If
they know something secret, then its likely they have a good
rationale (maybe not right by OUR standards, but good enough for
them) to maintain secrecy. Also, you are assuming they are not
freaking out. Who knows what nightmares they have? Perhaps they
have compartmentalized their work (like Clinton) to allow them
to function normally. Perhaps psych pre-screening permits
selection of the right people to be exposed to the data and
secrets rather than run the risk of unstable people freaking
out.








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                    Re: More UFOs In Indian Skies - Allan

From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 08:53:08 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 16:11:55 -0400
Subject: Re: More UFOs In Indian Skies - Allan


>Source: The India Daily

http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/10-09h-04.asp

>10-09-04

>More UFOs on Indian sky - what is happening on the Indian side
>of Himalayas? Are they planning to land? Close Encounters? Are
>they building a base?

>Sumit Chatterjee
>Special Correspondent

<snip>

>Some in Indian Space Research Organization secretly are saying
>that these UFOs are definitely planning and building a solid
>landing site with the help of Indian and Chinese Government.
>Time will say what the real story is!

Time will indeed.

I have never heard of the K-9 constellation. In fact there is no
constellation starting with a 'K'. Certainly if the ETs
(presumably from K-9) really did create and then soak up a whole
lake (!) between India and China, this far surpasses anything
they have done in the US or UK, and deserves serious attention.
There need never be a water shortage anywhere, ever again.

One thing seems certain now. Mr Sumit Chatterjee (or Chatterbox)
intends to stay on the UFO scene for some time yet.


CDA







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                      UFO Flotilla Over Veracruz Mexico

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 11:09:57 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 16:25:00 -0400
Subject: UFO Flotilla Over Veracruz Mexico


INEXPLICATA
The Journal of Hispanic Ufology

MEXICO: UFO FLOTILLA OVER VERACRUZ

Source: Planeta UFO
Date: October 19, 2004

Ricardo Antonio Lopez Morales, a resident of the port of
Veracruz, describes the sighting of a UFO flotilla around 11:30
a.m. and with an approximate duration of 45 minutes.

He describes them as semi-spherical shining object sthat changed
color; a police squad car and a commercial airliner were also
present on the site. He claims that cellular phones were
affected and animals reacted to the passing of the strange
objects..

The following are fragments of the e-mail sent by Mr. Morales to
UFO researcher Ana Luisa Cid:


"I was checking my e-mail accounts when I suddenly heard all of
the dogs in my neighborhood barking (including my own). First I
thought it was some kids who, as always, were taunting the dogs,
but then I noticed my neighbors going outside to see what was
going on. I saw how one of them stared at the sky and began to
say, jokingly: "Look, a flight ducks!" to which I replied:
"Those aren't ducks, it's a fleet of UFOs."

"After some 10 minutes of watching the phenomenon, a police
squad car came around during its normal watch, stopepd, and its
occupants got out of the unit to see what was happening. They
witnessed the phenomenon and began transmitting over their radio
to request backup. At the same time, I took out my cell phone to
call a friend who's a helicopter pilot and who also believes in
UFOs  and also works for the police aviation unit so that he
would take a spin around the area for a look. To my surprise, my
cell phone didn't work (and I had just charged the battery). I
kept trying and the text: LOW BAT or NO SIGNAL AVAILABLE kept
appearing. The same happened to the squad car--its radio
wouldn't work."

"They were 23 semi-spherical obejcts, silver-colored, flying in
a nearly tight formation. The lead object changed color and the
others would do the same. When they changed color, the objects
changed formation to form a soccer-goal type formation. 30
minutes later I saw an airplane taking off from the local
airport, which was the regular AEROMEXICO flight from Veracruz
to Miami, a Boeing B-737-900."

"The objects shifted from green to read and began spinning
faster (just looking at them made me feel sick). After spinning
for a minute, they broke formation and vanished into the air,
but left us a little reminder of their presence: an odor of
burnt leather or something that was truly unberarable. After
that moment, the police were able to call their base to request
assistance; I phoned my friend but couldn't get a signal.
Instead another recording came on about my minutes having been
exhausted (I had just purchased a 200 peso card the week
pefore). My cell phone no longer works like it did before; it
can be inferred that the magnetic field from the obejcts
affected it -- aside from having "stolen" my credit, they short-
circuited it, since it turns on by itself after being shut off.

The squad car number was 087 Central Sector. When I spoke to the
police station to make a report, I was told that no squad car
with that number had been on the scene and that no report had
been filed over the sighting (a code of silence?)..."


================================================================
Translation (c) 2004 Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special thanks to Ana Luisa Cid








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               Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings? - Smith

From: James Smith <1002.nul>
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 16:26:27 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 06:52:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings? - Smith


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 17:27:12 -0400
>Subject: Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings?

>Think how much further ahead abduction investigations might be
>if NIDS had had a channelling (remote viewing) department.


Well, they could also have used psychics, dowsers, Ouija boards,
seances, lucid dreaming (astral projection?, out-of-body
experiences), astrology, numerology, ESP.

But I think Ufoology has enough problems with credibility
without aggravating it with reliance on methods that have yet to
be verified, at least better than UFOs/abductions.

The sorry state of Ufoology (since the 70's) makes one think
that if there is an active governmental policy to make UFOs the
butt of jokes and not taken seriously by regular folk, then they
have been very effective.oOne wonders how they really do it.

Is it the subtle monetary nudge that cancels or does not fund
anything UFO related? Is it phone calls to media from
governmental types (that doesn't seem to stop the disgusting
programming on cable which would be in a Conservative
Administration in their best interest to promote)? Surely it
isn't the Men in Black? Is it simply the meme placed into
society that these are likely ours and the rest are just
unexplained natural phenomena or hoaxes or the product of
demented minds?







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   Oct > Oct 23

               Re: Any 'Unsung' Heroes In Ufology? - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 23:26:59 -0300
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 06:54:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Any 'Unsung' Heroes In Ufology? - Friedman


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 17:35:47 EDT
>Subject: Any 'Unsung' Heroes In Ufology?

>The Unsung Heroes Of Aviation & Space Flight...

>Any 'Unsung' Heroes In Ufology?

>Well, in my secret identity I'm also an aircraft, space flight
>afficianado. I've noticed many posts here about our space
>programs and astronauts.

>So one fellow I asked about the 'unsung' heroes of these fields
>is good ol' Al Bowers of NASA. He then put up a list of people
>he felt deserved the recognition of the public. His list brought
>back memories of when I was a kid meeting astronauts and pilots
>and ground technicians and such. Brought a tear to m' eye. Back
>then it was common to have rubbed elbows with some of these
>folks and if you're lucky you can run into some of the
>contemporaries at shows or conventions. Many of these folks
>still around are probably fans of your works. Take some time at
>your next convention to say howdy and double check those fan
>letters.

>Al's List:


<snip>

As far as I can tell neither astronaut Young nor Astronaut
Cernan landed on the Moon twice. Each landed once and got close
without landing once.


Stan Friedman








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   Oct > Oct 23

                         Re: Web-Site Links - Groff

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 23:09:41 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 06:56:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Web-Site Links - Groff


>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 09:26:35 -0500
>Subject: Web-Site Links

>Because we have been dealing with media for over 15 years, many
>reporters and media people of all stripes check out our web-
>sites, from a number of cities around the country where media
>people we've showcased over the years have ended up, including
>New York, Atlanta (CNN), Miami, Chicago, San Francisco, etc.

>Many are predisposed to check even our esoteric sites
>(fkbureau.org, quandary.net, and arcanum.ws, to name a few).

>Therefore, if any List readers have a web-site that they might
>like linked from our web-sites, please drop me a line at
>rrrgroup.nul with your site's web address, and we'll add it
>to the appropriate sites.

>We can list a significant number of sites.

>Rich Reynolds

Hi Rich,

Perhaps you could provide us links to your sites so that we
might visit them.


Thanks
Terry Groff

Webmaster
Dallas-Fort Worth MUFON
http://mufondfw.com

Webmaster
UFO TOOLS
http://terrygroff.com/ufotools/

Ringmaster
The UFO/UAP Research Webring
http://x.webring.com/hub?ring=ufologicalresear

"The flash of light you saw in the sky was not a UFO. Swamp gas
from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and
refracted the light from Venus" --Agent 'K'








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   Oct > Oct 23

                      Stereotypical UFOs & Researchers

From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul-realitycheck.com>
Date: 23 Oct 2004 10:54:30 -0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 07:01:05 -0400
Subject: Stereotypical UFOs & Researchers


Sightings that do not fit the stereotypical descriptions of
UFOs (i.e. saucer-shaped, triangular-shaped, etc.) are often
dismissed and/or ignored by UFO organizations, UFO researchers
and investigators because they do not fit neatly into any
category nor do they reflect what most people currently believe
about UFOs.

These types of sightings actually tell us more about UFOs than
the typical saucer or triangular shaped UFO sighting - if you
think outside the box (excuse the pun).


A. Hebert








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             Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings? - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 09:26:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 17:25:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings? - Lehmberg


>From: James Smith <1002.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 16:26:27 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>Subject: Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings?

>>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 17:27:12 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings?

>>Think how much further ahead abduction investigations might be
>>if NIDS had had a channelling (remote viewing) department.

>Well, they could also have used psychics, dowsers, Ouija boards,
>seances, lucid dreaming (astral projection?, out-of-body
>experiences), astrology, numerology, ESP.

>But I think Ufoology has enough problems with credibility
>without aggravating it with reliance on methods that have yet to
>be verified, at least better than UFOs/abductions.

>The sorry state of Ufoology (since the 70's) makes one think
>that if there is an active governmental policy to make UFOs the
>butt of jokes and not taken seriously by regular folk, then they
>have been very effective.oOne wonders how they really do it.

>Is it the subtle monetary nudge that cancels or does not fund
>anything UFO related? Is it phone calls to media from
>governmental types (that doesn't seem to stop the disgusting
>programming on cable which would be in a Conservative
>Administration in their best interest to promote)? Surely it
>isn't the Men in Black? Is it simply the meme placed into
>society that these are likely ours and the rest are just
>unexplained natural phenomena or hoaxes or the product of
>demented minds?


The preceding seems to be a wounded verbal shuffle regarding the
perception of dodgy relevancy in that which is generated to fill
the informational void - not having to be there in the first
place - vis a vis the exploration of paranormal subjects.

Richard Hall and John Velez have expressed similar sentiments
about related subjects. The invective is the customary (and
understandable) outrage contained in the "scurrilous woo-woos
detracting from their idealized (but very parochial) Ufology"
explication they do so earnestly and with such conviction. It is
speech filled with off the mark and misplaced passion, I think -
angry indignation for a fringe loopy-ness they intimate is
predominantly responsible for the aggregate disrespect the study
of UFOs seems to garner from the 'mainstream'. I think they miss
the proverbial broad side of the barn by the obligatory parsec.
It is a position that defines an attitude missing the point.

The 'fringe', unfortunately, is the only reality seemingly
_available_ for most, and it is inhabited by adherents to
strange beliefs and alternate philosophies  - not _all_ bad!
They do; however, in the aggregate, earn every bit of the
skepticism and challenged veracity they generate, facilitated
and habituated, as they are, by a few slick hucksters, clever
con-men, and strident scalawags of extreme sociopathy, but, as
they are in the vast minority, actually, these persons just
pointed out are not the issue.

More at issue - but not 'there', _yet_ - are the rank and file
'believers' or adherents to these beliefs and philosophies,
those that (perhaps) innocently support the hucksters, con-men,
and scalawags: these persons who give those 'scabrous' their
power and influence, and without whom those 'slick-mouthed' are
impotent and powerless. Why do these persons believe the
scabrous scurrilous? That's the point Jerry Clark, John Velez,
or Richard Hall, respectfully, can't seem to address, put their
finger on, or even admit exists.

Forget that the Ufology suggested by persons such as Velez and
Hall does not - and cannot - exist in any real form for them.
The ,too revered, peer review, two-color science of legeslated
limitation, and rigid critical thinking they'd employ has failed
them because they are ironically _alone_ on that sheet of
'investigative music'. Verily, the mainstream that they support
and otherwise give credit to... has no respect for them (in my
view), shall not validate them, and is arbitrarily closed to
them. It shall not credit them in any way. It cannot!

Examples of attitude: Velez and Hall consider this pursued
mainstream as mentor, friend, and ally while it, in turn,
considers them _its_ hostile enemy!   What stupefying irony.
Erroneously thinking that they are on the same team with it,
these gentlemen give blithe obeisance to its assumed rationality
and pursue its appreciated favor when, rationally, that favor
can _never_ be returned... (!) because the moment that it _does_
it ceases to be the 'mainstream' that it has become: A hijacked
and therefore corrupted and invalidated mechanism for
manipulation. There is nothing main-stream about the mainstream,
honored reader. It has ALWAYS been manipulated to pursue a
hidden agenda. It has always been a fabricated lap-dog of the
REAL villain in this piece.

Why _do_ people believe?  This is airily dismissing anything Dr.
Shermer has to say on the subject? Derisively accused, once, of
being a ufological believer, Margaret Mead (at her death in 1978
the most renowned anthropologist in the world) countered that
the only thing she 'believed' about UFOs was that they
_remained_ [suspiciously] unidentified! And that is the crux of
the matter tied with an iridescent bow!

For all the massive evidence (encompassing facets of the
personal, photographic, historical, physical, and _quality_
anecdotal) regarding UFOs, UFOs remain bereft of identification,
or the simple _admission_, that they even exist. This denial
(not limited to just the ufological by the way) creates the
informational void that the "information hungry" abhor and must
endeavor to fill - any way they can!  Here is the crux of the
matter, the crotch that deserves the combat boot.  Who created
the 'informational void' all must agree is there!

Human nature is revolted by the vacuum this lack of quality
information precipitates. Nature abhors the vacuum in turn and
all know the imperative of nature to fill a vacuum, even if the
vacuum is educational, informational or intellectual. Into this
knowledge void of many individuals pours the Heavens Gate Cult,
the Urantians, Raelians, Unarians, and even the Sean David
Mortons or the antithesis Andy Roberts...  Christianity, Islam,
and other religious memes satisfy many others the exact same
way... Is the 'information void' created (directly) by any of
the preceding?

No. These groups and individuals (assuming, for a moment, their
lack of veracity) only take unethical ADVANTAGE of the
aforementioned "void". It was there at the start.  From where
does the information "void", then, come?

Rather predictably, the information void is a function of the
duplicity and obfuscation busily perpetrated by a society that
functions predominately for the benefit of the few against (and
at the expense of) the manipulated many. The information void is
a toxic byproduct of a corrupt culture that cannot maintain its
spurious status quo unless it controls the flow of that
information it regards as 'threatening'. The information void is
a result, then, of a contrived system more concerned with the
individuals that manipulate it (them) than it is with the
individuals that empower it (you and me)!

Information that is at 'cross purposes' to the system's
continuance is buried, otherwise covered up, or discredited to
insure that system's survival. Clearly, the 'system' (as it
stands) should _not_ survive. If heaven _can_ fall, it _should_
come down!  Yea and verily.

Into this conjectured "void" flows the concerned individual's
ardent desire to "know" and "understand", and for many, any
philosophical roughage will do. ...At least until something
better comes along - something that assembles more pieces in the
big picture than is gotten 'officially'. Something along the
lines of what Hall, Clark, and Velez would rationally cobble
together for us, presumably if they were allowed to unfettered.

To sum up, the garden variety innocent individuals of our
society are set up by that society, then, as easy pickings for
the fringe dwelling sociopaths that society conveniently
tolerates (...and may even generate!) to mask its complicity in
that ignorance, an ignorance that facilitates the ongoing agenda
(...conspiracy... uh huh, yes... sorry...) to deceive. Scum
lining up to fleece the prefabricated gullible, but scum that
wouldn't even be there if they couldn't line up to profitably
but erroneously fill the informational void they have _not_
created!

This is why the preferable attitude of persons like Velez and
Hall are off target, off the mark, and missing the broad side of
the cosmic barn. Their rage and justified angers are poorly
aimed. It is a rage that does not concern itself with the actual
reasons for the aggregate ignorance, but concerns itself instead
with that which _is_ created, sometimes even innocently, to
abrogate the ignorance already _there_ but not addressed!

People believe loopy conjectures only because otherwise quality
information is not forthcoming! That the long and short of it.
If quality information was made available... the tolerated
social criminals that advantage themselves as a result of its
(unconscionable!) absence, and at which Velez and Hall expend
their efficacious energies... could not exist. Verily, if the
mainstream actually _reflected_ the prerequisites and the
prerogatives of the main stream, the dissembling fringe
provoking their petulant ire would disappear in the puff of
smoke it otherwise resembles! It would not even be _around_ to
cause them such "sturm und drang".

To recap, respected stalwarts like Velez and Hall concern
themselves with the symptoms of the disease that seemingly
infuriates them but not the disease itself. The 'disease' is the
unelected leadership that practices its unending and reflexive
denial - handily providing for an informational void at the
_start_. The 'symptom' is that which is generated to counter
the, obviously specious, denial, as bizarre as that counter-
action may be... to _fill_ that informational void.

Truly, more bizarre is the angst and ire of some that
indolently, complacently, fatuously, ...and smugly... aim their
articulate guns off target and then spew invective and express
surprise when they don't hit same.  That's a hoot.

Before one can get a really good 'smirk' going about "remote
viewing" (et al), this is to say, one needs to ask Jimmy Carter
about his experience with same.  This goes for an aggregate
outlook on paranormal subjects. Additionally, they might
consider that there is decidedly _more_ to heaven and earth,
that perception is, at best, _minimal_ through a minimum of 5
weak senses, and that one finger pointed _still_ must leave
three fingers remaning and 180 degrees in accusatory opposition.


alienview.nul  -:=A6:-
   www.AlienView.net








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   Oct > Oct 23

                          NY Times Betty Hill Obit

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 10:42:25 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 17:28:08 -0400
Subject: NY Times Betty Hill Obit


NY Times Betty Hill Obit... You Be The Judge

Source: The New York Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/23/national/23hill.html?ex=1099195200&en=e4d7a7db
a1c791ab&ei=5006&partner=ALTAVISTA1

October 23, 2004

Betty Hill, 85, Figure in Alien Abduction Case, Dies

By Margalit Fox

Published:

Betty Hill, whose assertion that she was carried off by
otherworldly beings in 1961 inspired a national obsession with
alien abduction that remains a staple of American popular
culture, died on Sunday at her home in Portsmouth, N.H. She was
85.

The cause was lung cancer, her niece Kathleen Marden said.

Mrs. Hill was not the first person to tell of an alien
encounter. But her account was the first to capture the public
imagination on a grand scale, defining a narrative subgenre that
has flourished in the decades since.

Mrs. Hill's account was the subject of a book by John G. Fuller,
"The Interrupted Journey: Two Lost Hours 'Aboard a Flying
Saucer' " (Dial, 1966). In 1975 it became a television movie,
"The UFO Incident." The film starred Estelle Parsons as Mrs.
Hill and James Earl Jones as her husband, Barney, who also said
he was abducted.

The incident, the Hills said, occurred on the night of Sept. 19,
1961. Driving in the White Mountains of New Hampshire, they saw
a light that seemed to grow larger and larger. Back home, they
found what appeared to be shiny spots on the car's exterior.
They could not account for a two-hour segment of their trip.

The Hills later saw a psychiatrist, who put them under hypnosis.
Gradually, a narrative of the couple's lost hours emerged. They
recounted many times that a group of short gray-skinned beings
stopped their car and took them aboard a waiting spaceship.
There, the Hills said, they were subjected to rigorous medical
examinations that included inserting a long needle into Mrs.
Hill's navel.

The account fit squarely in the Western narrative tradition.
With a dark night, ghostly apparitions and sexual undercurrent,
it had many Victorian gothic hallmarks, and it shared the common
Western folklore theme of being spirited off and ravished by an
otherworldly creature.

In the Hills' account, these traditional elements were
transplanted to a modern but no less anxious time, the height of
the cold war, when many people gazed nervously skyward.

"It's not unlike the Leda and the swan myth," said Terry
Matheson, a professor of English at the University of
Saskatchewan and the author of "Alien Abductions: Creating a
Modern Phenomenon" (Prometheus, 1998). "The alien comes in,
probes women in a distinctly sexual way for purposes that are
equally inscrutable, but which may, we're told, make sense down
the road."

Mrs. Hill was born Eunice Elizabeth Barrett on June 28, 1919, in
Newton, N.H. A graduate of the University of New Hampshire, she
was a social worker for many years. Besides her niece, survivors
include three sisters, two children and three grandchildren. Mr.
Hill died in 1969.

The Hills' cultural legacy includes films ("Close Encounters of
the Third Kind"), television programs ("Roswell") and books,
like those by Whitley Strieber and John Mack, that treat alien
abduction as a plausible phenomenon.








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   Oct > Oct 23

                           Rutan Photographs UFOs?

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 12:35:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 17:30:40 -0400
Subject: Rutan Photographs UFOs?


Rutan Photographs UFOs as he reaches for the "X" prize?

Watch the whole flight and use the "Angle Selection" dropdown
menu to change camera angles. View inside and outside the craft
as the mission is being flown. The video provided by the X
Prize Foundation, at the following URL:

http://channelevents.aol.com/research/xprize/index.adp

At 4 minutes 2 seconds into the film, at or near apogee, a
white dot appears at the top of the cabin and transitions slowly
right to left. Relative movement indicates that the object is
stationary; however, at 4 minutes 16 seconds there appears
another white dot, aft of the rocket motor, that moves in a
quick streak top right to bottom left - blink and you miss it.

If it is a star, why are we seeing only one? Is it Venus or
Jupiter? What was the fast moving object? Not a hint of any
other stars in the black airless sky. Birds? No. Swamp gas?
no. Bolides and rocket boosters? Maybe.

Anybody have any ideas?


alienview.nul -:=A6:-
  www.AlienView.net









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              Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof -

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 14:38:12 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 17:33:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof -


>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 08:43:49 -0500
>Subject: Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:08:29 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof

>>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 12:32:17 -0700
>>>Subject: Re: Credible UFO Witnesses Not Sufficient Proof

<snip>

>I've corresponded with Mr. Sakulich, who seems to be a fine
>fellow, taking the stance about UFOs (and related phenomena)
>which is held by the skeptical younger set (and many oldsters
>also I'm afraid).

>Several responses from UFO aficionados (to my e-mail address)
>about a few of my posts here indicate that many have stopped
>visiting UFO Updates or other UFO forums because of the nasty
>colloquys, between UFO icons and those who are more interested
>in a heated back-and-forth rather than finding out what UFOs
>have been and are.

>Mr. Sakulich presents a cogent summary of the anti-UFO set...
>those who haven't seen something strange in the sky (or on the
>ground) or those who haven't studied the topic.


Dear Rich, Et Al,

Speaking only for myself Rich; first my criticisms (in "my"
rebuttal) were directed at Mr. Sakulich's writings, not his
character. I have no problem with skepticism, I deem it to be
healthy in matters that one is not familiar with. I have to
disagree with your assessment of his article; however, in order
for Mr. Sakulich to present a cogent summary of anything, he
would have to present facts supporting his mind-set; I'm afraid
his articles regarding Ufology have much to erroneous
information in them to use that particular adjective!

>Frank Warren's step-by-step rebuttal of Mr. Sakulich's
>presentation, while not thorough, was a nice offset, and it
>should evoke responses from those who believe in UFOs or know
>things that newbies don't - no matter how tiresome it is to
>repeat, ad nauseum, ad eternum. ad infinitum, the arguments and
>stories replete within the UFO history.

My rebuttal was thorough, but there "was room" to embellish my
position further, although I didn't deem it necessary. Also,
using the verb "believe" in association with the  term "UFOs"
doesn't make any sense; it would be the same as saying "I
believe in the 'Empire State Building'"; both are factual things
and to say you believe in them is more then redundant. I do
agree that it gets tiresome to repeat the same (UFO) history
over and over, but for the "Aaron Sakulich's" in the world, it
seems necessary.

>I, for one, love the "clarifications" of Stanton Friedman,
>Richard Hall, Jerry Clark, et alii, even though I've heard them
>many times before.

>UFOs, like philosophy, theology, and other unresolved
>existential issues, should invite all comers, even those who
>doubt. Bashing them for their non-belief creates a stasis, which
>I don't think will help resolve the UFO mystery... but I could
>be wrong.

Again, to be clear, I have written responses to two of Mr.
Sakulich's articles, and I certainly don't think I was "bashing
him"; criticizing yes, and I pointed out why, every step of the
way.  I took/take issue with his obvious "lack of research" of
his chosen subject matter, evidenced by all the erroneous
material he presented, as well as his "unscientific" approach to
the subject.


Respectfully,

Frank Warren








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                Research Shows How False Memories Are Formed

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 17:39:39 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 17:39:39 -0400
Subject: Research Shows How False Memories Are Formed




Source: Science Daily

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/10/041022104848.htm

=09
10-22-04

Researcher Shows How False Memories Are Formed

False memories are the controversial subject of hotly contested
arguments about the validity of repressed memories that can
surface years after a traumatic event and about the credibility
of eyewitness accounts in criminal trials.

Because memories are imperfect under ordinary circumstances =97
forming, storing and retrieving them, with great variations in
factors influencing those processes =97 it is unlikely that a one-
answer-fits-all will settle those controversies soon.

But a group of researchers from various disciplines at
Northwestern University literally have peered into the brain to
offer new evidence on the existence of false memories and how
they are formed.

Published in the journal Psychological Science, the new study
used MRI technology to pinpoint how people form a memory for
something that didn=92t actually happen.

"Our challenge was to bring people into the laboratory and set
up a circumstance in which they would remember something that
did not happen," said Kenneth A. Paller, professor of psychology
and co-investigator of the study. (Brian Gonsalves, who was a
doctoral student of Paller=92s and who now is a post-doctoral
fellow at Stanford University, is the first author of the
paper.)

"We measured brain activity in people who looked at pictures of
objects or imagined other objects that we asked them to
visualize. Later we asked them to discriminate what they
actually saw from what they imagined," Paller said.

Extending upon considerable Northwestern research on what
happens in the brain when people remember versus forget, the
researchers were interested in what happens differently in the
brain when false memories are produced.

"We learned that the particular parts of the brain critical for
generating visual images are highly activated when people
imagine images such as those we presented to our study
participants," said Paller

Many of the visual images that the subjects were asked to
imagine were later misremembered as actually having been seen.

"We think parts of the brain used to actually perceive an object
and to imagine an object overlap," said Paller. "Thus, a vividly
imagined event can leave a memory trace in the brain that=92s very
similar to that of an experienced event. When memories are
stored for perceived or imagined objects, some of the same brain
areas are involved."

Take a real life example in which a police interrogator asks if
you saw a particular person at a crime scene. That induces
putting that person in your imagination and possibly corrupts
later questioning.

"Just the fact of looking back into your memory and thinking
about whether an event happened is tantamount to imagining that
event happening," Paller said. "If I ask you if something
happened, you imagine it happening. Later on =97 a day or a year
later =97 if I ask about that event, you have the tough judgment
of deciding what happened and what was imagined."

It is important to know that memory is fallible, Paller said.
"We know that we forget quite a bit, but we=92re not always in
touch with the idea that our memories can sometimes can be
misleading."

For this procedure of measuring brain activity, people lay down
in an MRI machine as they looked at a screen with a series of
words, all concrete nouns, and pictures, and they wore head
phones to hear what was being said. They were instructed to
generate a visual image corresponding to each object that was
named. For half the words, a photographic image of the object
was presented. The subjects were told to make no response to
photos, but only to look at each one while waiting for the next
word.

They were told to make a size judgment about the objects they
were to imagine. For example, if the word was cat, they were
told to imagine the cat and decide if a cat is generally bigger
or smaller than a video monitor.

The memory test was administered outside the scanner and began
approximately 20 minutes after the scanning. Subjects heard a
randomly ordered sequence of spoken words. One-third
corresponded to photos they had seen, one-third to objects they
had only imagined and one-third they had neither seen nor
imagined. For each word, subjects decided whether or not they
had viewed a photo of the named object during the study phase.

Three brain areas (precuneus, right inferior parietal cortex and
anterior cingulate) showed greater responses in the study phase
to words that would later be falsely remembered as having been
presented with photos, compared to words that were not later
misremembered as having been presented with photos. The words
leading to false memories also tended to be slightly more
concrete, on average, than those that did not. Presumably,
people could generate a visual image more easily for the more
concrete words.

"At any rate, the remarkable finding is that brain activity
during the study phase could predict which objects would
subsequently be falsely remembered as having been seen as a
photograph," Paller said.

The flip side is that memory for viewed photographs was often
correct. People gave many correct responses for objects they
indeed viewed. Brain activity produced in response to viewed
pictures and measured with functional MRI also predicted which
pictures would be subsequently remembered. Two brain regions in
particular =97 the left hippocampus and the left prefrontal cortex
=97 were activated more strongly for pictures that were later
remembered than for pictures that were forgotten. These two
brain areas have previously been understood to play a central
role in memory.

The new findings directly showed that different brain areas are
critical for accurate memories for visual objects than for false
remembering =97 for forming a memory for an imagined object that
is later remembered as a perceived object. The neuroanatomical
evidence furthermore sheds light on the mental mechanisms
responsible for forming accurate memories versus false memories.

"In the case of the false remembering emphasized here, the false
memories were created when vivid visual imagery was engaged and
a mental image was produced," Paller said. "These mental images
left a trace in the brain that was later mistaken for the trace
that would have been produced had that object actually been
seen."

Listed as on the study, the co-investigators are Brian
Gonsalves, post-doctoral fellow, Stanford University, and
Northwestern researchers Paul J. Reber, associate professor of
psychology, Darren R. Gitelman, associate professor of
neurology, Todd B. Parrish, associate professor or radiology, M.
Marsel Mesulam, Ruth and Evelyn Dunbar Professor, and Kenneth A.
Paller, professor of psychology. The Northwestern researchers
are affiliated with the department of psychology, the Institute
for Neuroscience, the Cognitive Neurology and Alzheimer=92s
Disease Center, the department of neurology, the department of
radiology and the Feinberg School of Medicine.


Editor's Note: The original news release can be found here:

http://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/stories/2004/10/kenneth.html







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                          Re: Gordon Cooper - Oberg

From: Jim Oberg <joberg.nul>
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 18:46:04 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 08:22:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Oberg


>From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 20:37:20 -0500
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Scheldroup

>And... anyone out there has a copy of the Gordo film saucer
>landing at Edwards AFB back in 1957, can you kindly send the
>original or copy to me so I can let the world take a peak at it?

If you read my report at:

http://www.zip.com.au/~psmith/cooper.html

you will see I identify the report as case 4715.

I ordered my own copy of the report and the film images from the
National Archives in college Park, Maryland - and got it.

Have you tried that, or is there some reason you won't?


Jim Oberg











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                      Re: Betty Hill Credible? - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul>
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 16:47:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 08:24:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Betty Hill Credible? - Hebert


>From: Bryan Daum <bryandaum.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 09:40:15 -0700
>Subject: Betty Hill Credible?

<snip>

>I have never seen another UFO but I'll never think about things
>the same. I wonder how many others see something once and find
>their thinking changed for ever? How I would love to see one of
>the Black Triangles once.

(Below is my original reply to this post but my outgoing mail
was messed up and Errol only got the last paragraph which he
graciously posted to the List anyway as "Stereotypical UFO's And
Researchers".)

Dear Bryan:

In my research, I collect reports of what are called "high
strangeness sightings" and your report is in my files (from
NUFORC). I began studying these types of sightings (that most
UFOlogists ignore) because of my own high strangeness sighting.
What I saw in 1997 changed my thinking and my life forever. It
led me to do 7+ years of intense research and the two books I'm
writing. You are not alone. I know how it feels to see something
so strange even those who study UFO's, abductions, etc. do not
believe you.

Even Peter Davenport never filed my initial report in the NUFORC
data bank. I called him a few minutes after the thing I saw
hovering behind my house disappeared and left a message on his
answering machine (he was out of town). A few days later, I sent
him a more complete report with a picture I drew via E- mail. I
think Peter may have dismissed my sighting as a
misidentification because it was so strange and bizarre -
 definitely not your typical 'flying saucer'. It wasn't until he
realized there were other witnesses that night that he knew my
report was genuine.

I don't blame Peter. I probably wouldn't believe these things
exist if I hadn't seen one with my own eyes. If I had never seen
one of these high strangeness objects and someone told me they
saw one and described it, I probably wouldn't believe them
either. Instead of automatically dismissing or ignoring these
types of reports, I began collecting them. These objects come in
all shapes, sizes and colors yet exhibit surprisingly similar
behaviors. And this, I think, may be the key to their origins
and intentions.

What bothers me most is how reports of this nature may be
frequently ignored or dismissed by UFO organizations,
researchers, investigators, etc. Just because they seem too
bizarre or resemble natural objects seen in the sky, on the
ground or in the water does not mean they cannot exist. After
all, what better way to hide in plain sight than to pretend to
be a cloud, a star or a rock (roach, lizard, snake, bird, the
moon, airplanes, helicopters, kites, balloons, planets,
satellites, yea even the Virgin Mary...).

Sightings that do not fit the stereotypical descriptions of
UFO's are often dismissed and/or ignored by mainstream UFOlogy
because they do not fit neatly into any category nor do they
reflect what most people currently believe about UFO's. These
types of sightings actually tell us more about UFO's than the
typical saucer or triangular shaped UFO sighting - if you think
outside the box (excuse the pun).


Sincerely,

A. Hebert








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               Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings? - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 02:35:33 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 08:25:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings? - Boone


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 17:27:12 -0400
>Subject: Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings?

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 18:33:01 EDT
>>Subject: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings?

>>I can't say why the topic of changelings came up, it's not
>>appropriate at this moment but it is pertinent to the subject of
>>abductions and visitations.

>Think how much further ahead abduction investigations might be
>if NIDS had had a channelling (remote viewing) department.


Thanks Eleanor White, but I said 'changelings' not 'chanelling'.


Best,

Greg








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                Re: Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information

From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 17:46:00 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 08:28:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 12:22:43 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>Subject: Re: Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information Project

<snip>

>There are alot of questions I have with this harassment concept.
>It does seem to happen and can be documented (at least the
>subjective effects) but most of the time it seems more like
>demonic forces than UFOs or the government.

We absolutely agree with you. Although not zero, the likelihood
of direct ET/UFO involvement is small.

My point was that by releasing information that UFO-class
technology _exists_ erases all the denial about the technology
used to torture people to their deathbed or suicide.

As to motive, we suspect that the covert organization which is
"doing" us is the New World Order, the oligarchy formed of the
world's most wealthy, and most greedy, and most mentally ill.
Within each layer of the organizational chart, no doubt there
are many different motives.

At the top, the ultra-wealthy want total control. At the street
level, author David Lawson infiltrated these harassment gangs in
the U.S. and Canada and found that the harassers are told lies
(the target is a drug dealer, prostitute, pedophile) and they
believe they are doing a really positive civic service that
those pesky laws don't permit. Members are also very much
motivated by the approval of their co-harassers. Many are losers
who don't do well in the workplace or socially.

That book is quoted in a ten-page review and makes fascinating
reading apart from its seriousness:

http://www.raven1.net/terstalk.htm

>I would think that adequate directional EM monitoring,
>motion sensing video recorders, acoustic monitoring, EEG should
>be able to provide data. If the frequencies are beyond our tech
>to monitor and can be done at a distance then we are screwed and
>likely no one will believe you. This almost matches the alien
>abduction problem.

The direct attack signals are not stopped by multi layer
shielding, and just like ghost hauntings, where sometimes you
get EM effects and sometimes you don't, we don't get
synchronized (with the effects) EM readings most of the time.
Remote physical manipulation and occasionally levitation is also
part of the syndrome, so like the effects observed around UFOs
and abductions, this is much more than conventional EM
technology. Much more like "psychic attacks", described in books
like "Psychic Discoveries Behind the Iron Curtain" or Tim
Rifat's "Remote Viewing."

The advanced electronics are indeed very much like abductions.

I'm happy to report, and this might have implications for
_abduction_ _research_ too, that one of our members acquired an
expensive thermal imaging camera (as used with ghost research)
and discovered that he has two slightly cooler than surrounding
dots on his forehead.

We're trying to see what can be made of that, and if the less
expensive semi-infrared cameras like Sony's NightShot will work
too.

** On abduction research, we know that often, per Anne Druffel's
book "How to Defend Against Alien Abduction", abductees have
premonitions that an abduction is going to happen. I wonder what
would result from comparing a thermal image without the
premonition with one taken during a premonition period. Also, a
thermal imaging video of the abductee in bed, say, waiting for
the sensed abduction.

Our problem is that a main thrust of the non-electronic
harassment is to destroy our ability to earn a living, and these
scum _succeed_ brilliantly. They destroyed my engineering career
and I ended up working as a security guard (still harassed on
the job) for 3 years until I could just retire on early Canada
and US Social Security.

>My notion is that this harassment is less related to UFOs and
>prosaic human agents (criminal or govern.) and more related to
>some sort of paranormal activity. Perhaps ghosts, poltergeists,
>demons, or some unnamed psychokinetic force.

A solid half of our torment is non-electronic and non-
paranormal. "Gang stalking" by the networked harassment clubs
described in the book review above, the title for which is
"Terrorist Stalking in America". The author researched both the
U.S. and Canada and found that these "clubs" are literally
everywhere, and hand off a target to other clubs when the target
travels or moves.

Remember, these people think they are carrying out "justice"
which the laws on the books prevent happening. The author found
extensive "criminal record" binders on the targets, complete
with photos and faked rap sheets.

Anyway, that solid half of non-electronic, non-paranormal
activity takes it well out of the "poltergeist" realm.

>>Whether or not the scum who torture us received help from ETs
>>(or UFO crashes) or not.
>Yes, it should be reported because of the human abuse. But if
>UFO aliens are doing these harassing things AND the government
>cannot do anything about it to prevent it, don't you think the
>public would be put into a panic if the government made such a
>pronouncement?

No. The government people who know the full truth aren't
panicking. Neither are those of us who are convinced in the ET
presence.

> Maybe it would make matters worse because rather
>than have a very small group of harassed,tormented people, you
>would have EVERYONE freaking out because they could be next and
>there is no way to stop it. How many would commit suicide then?

Personally, UFOs are so well known that I don't believe anyone
would commit suicide over being told they are ET craft.

>>At the very least, full UFO disclosure would end, once and for
>>all, the chronic denial by officials that technology which can
>>do what we report exists.

>You presume the government knows and participates in the
>harassment activities.

Having dealt with them for years, and learning about their
atrocities directly from the survivors of MKULTRA and other
programs, I have no doubt they at least know about it. My world
view is that the New World Order owns all visible governments.

>Perhaps they either do not know what is
>going on, or have no control of it. Why assume the worse, namely
>that the government is the evil-doer?

I really don't care if the visible governments are doing it or
not. But they are accepting _generous_ pay cheques and have made
oaths to serve and protect the public good. Just telling is to
see a good psychiatrist when they have thousands of complaints
on file and ample evidence of conventional electronics which can
silently destroy lives, is _criminal_. They are _not_ doing
their jobs!

>>In a broader view, the government personnel who know the full
>>truth are _no_ better than we are, and they are not freaking
>>out. As Jessie Marcel urged, give the people what they actually
>>own, and _do_it_now_!

>Again, you assume they know something about what is going on. If
>they know something secret, then its likely they have a good
>rationale (maybe not right by OUR standards, but good enough for
>them) to maintain secrecy. Also, you are assuming they are not
>freaking out. Who knows what nightmares they have? Perhaps they
>have compartmentalized their work (like Clinton) to allow them
>to function normally. Perhaps psych pre-screening permits
>selection of the right people to be exposed to the data and
>secrets rather than run the risk of unstable people freaking
>out.

I simply have to say I disagree with you on the paragraph above.


Eleanor White








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             Re: Research Shows How False Memories Are Formed -

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 17:03:35 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 08:29:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Research Shows How False Memories Are Formed -


>Source: Science Daily

>http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/10/041022104848.htm
>10-22-04

>Researcher Shows How False Memories Are Formed

Interesting as this may be for the psycho-social set, one might
ask another question:

How are _genuine_  memories taken and formed by the human mind?


Best

- Larry








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                        Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 08:20:38 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 11:50:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg


>From: Jim Oberg <joberg.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 18:46:04 -0500
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 20:37:20 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Scheldroup

>>And... anyone out there has a copy of the Gordo film saucer
>>landing at Edwards AFB back in 1957, can you kindly send the
>>original or copy to me so I can let the world take a peak at it?

>If you read my report at:

>http://www.zip.com.au/~psmith/cooper.html

>you will see I identify the report as case 4715.

>I ordered my own copy of the report and the film images from the
>National Archives in college Park, Maryland - and got it.

>Have you tried that, or is there some reason you won't?


Uh huh... yeah, yeah... sure, sure.....

The reader concerned with the real history of this ufological
brouhaha might want to visit the following URL for some more
reasonable thinking on the subject...

http://www.cohenufo.org/ocr.1a.html

Posner is not the last word on JFK, folks, and James Oberg
is far from the last word on Gordon Cooper. Special thanks to
Jerry Cohen.

alienview.nul -:=A6:-
  www.AlienView.net








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             Re: Research Shows How False Memories Are Formed -

From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 16:28:33 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 11:52:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Research Shows How False Memories Are Formed -


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 17:03:35 -0700
>Subject: Re: Research Shows How False Memories Are Formed

>>Source: Science Daily

>>http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/10/041022104848.htm
>>10-22-04

>>Researcher Shows How False Memories Are Formed

>Interesting as this may be for the psycho-social set, one might
>ask another question:

>How are _genuine_  memories taken and formed by the human mind?

You obviously haven't read it very carefully. The team
investigated the differences between the formation of true and
false memories and reported:

"The new findings directly showed that different brain areas are
critical for accurate memories for visual objects than for false
remembering - for forming a memory for an imagined object that
is later remembered as a perceived object. The neuroanatomical
evidence furthermore sheds light on the mental mechanisms
responsible for forming accurate memories versus false
memories."


John Harney








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             Re: Research Shows How False Memories Are Formed -

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 08:27:07 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 12:00:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Research Shows How False Memories Are Formed -


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 17:03:35 -0700
>Subject: Re: Research Shows How False Memories Are Formed

>>Source: Science Daily

>>http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/10/041022104848.htm
>>10-22-04

>>Researcher Shows How False Memories Are Formed

>Interesting as this may be for the psycho-social set, one might
>ask another question:

>How are _genuine_ memories taken and formed by the human mind?



Larry,

Below are sources of memory research.

Terry

-----

BEHAVIORAL SCIENCE UPDATE FOR BEH 311

UPDATE #7
DATE: 17 June 02
NAME: Terry W. Colvin


Topic: "False Memory Syndrome"
Chapter 13: Social Psychology in Action: Legal, Medical, and
Organizational Applications


Quote: "The great mass of people... will more easily fall victim
        to a big lie than to a small one." -Adolf Hitler

WWW Site #1: Pickrell, J., Loftus, E., & Schwarz, J. (2001, June
13). False Memories Easily Created, Researchers Discover.
Retrieved June 16, 2002 from:


http://unisci.com/stories/20012/0613011.htm

Almost one-third of the people shown a fake print ad depicting a
visit to Disneyland and meeting and shaking hands with Bugs
Bunny later said they recalled or knew the event happened to
them. Bugs Bunny is a Warner Bros. cartoon creation, not a Walt
Disney Co. creation. Memory is susceptible and moldable. This
process applies not only to people having a false memory
implanted by a therapist or eyewitnesses to an accident.
'Knowing' is having no real memory, but certain it happened. For
example, having their umbilical cord cut at birth or their
foreskin circumcised soon after. Confabulation is likely. The
ripple effect in the false advertising study above meant those
30 percent were more likely to associate seeing Bugs Bunny with
Mickey Mouse or marching in the Main Street Electrical Parade.


WWW Site #2: Blakeslee, B. (2000, September 19). Brain-Updating
Machinery May Explain False Memories.

Retrieved June 16, 2002 from:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2000/sep/m20-004.shtml

or

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/09/19/science/19MEMO.html

Two people who witness the same event will often recall, years
later, different memories.

An old memory pulled into consciousness is pulled apart,
updated, and then new proteins are made to put the memory back
into long-term storage. These new proteins reflect each person's
life experiences, not the memory itself. Memory engineering may
be possible to erase traumatic memories and better understand
how false memories are implanted. Newly formed memories are
unstable and gradually these short-term memories are turned into
long-term memories. A disruption can occur through a bump on the
head, an electric shock or certain drugs. Memory is unstable for
about six hours and open to manipulation. Fear conditioning in
rats involved a tone associated with an electric shock. A new
test a day or so later retrieved the fear memory by using the
tone, but a drug to block protein synthesis stopped the rats
from recalling the pain. It is unknown if older memories can be
manipulated. Evolution allows memories to change from inputs of
new information, but memories must be reliable to guide
behavior. These findings may permit the recall of a traumatic
memory and then a drug to disrupt the consolidation of that
memory. Weaving incorrect as well as correct information to
create false memory places a person at risk of believing their
memories are wholly reliable.


WWW Site #3: Mak, A. (2001, February 20). Recovered Memories;
Banking on Memories. Retrieved June 16, 2002 from:

http://tsw.odyssey.on.ca/~balancebeam/courts/memories.htm

Recovered Memory Therapy (RMT) was introduced into North America
by Gloria Steinem's Swiss analyst, Alice Miller and began to
circulate in therapeutic circles in the mid eighties. "Memory
enhancement" or recovered memories were popularized by two
lesbian writers and soon adopted by people with low self-esteem,
eating disorders, anger towards their fathers, and other mid-
life problems and recovered hidden memories of incest,
especially by gays and lesbians. Pastoral counselors were soon
recovering memories of Satanic cult ritual abuses (SRA). In
Canada a son or daughter would accuse their parents of sexual
abuse in early childhood. Over 227 Canadian court cases were
lodged and 160 resulted in acquittals, and those convicted had
lawyers unfamiliar with this new type of accusation. By the late
eighties tens of thousands of unhappy men and women in North
America, mostly in their thirties, believed that their mid-life
problems resulted from repressed memories of sexual abuse in
childhood. This 'quack' therapy was soon exported to other
English-speaking countries and some Western European countries.
Police and judiciary up until about 1995 accepted the big lie.
No absolute proof exists that these were repressed memories
although several researchers have tried to do studies.
Therapists and social workers are accused of fostering quackery.
The syndrome is defined as a condition where a traumatic
experience is objectively false but in which the person
intensely believes, per the U.S. False Memory Syndrome
Foundation, Britain's False Memory Society, and other false
memory societies. These organizations were formed to protect the
interests of parents accused by their
children of abuse.

Resource Type Selected: Article__x__Book____Magazine____
Other____(specify)


Source Citation: Medway, G. J. (2001, November). Satan in
Suburbia. Retrieved June 17, 2002 from
http://217.206.205.129/articles/152_satanicpanic.shtml


Why was this source selected (importance or value/interest to
you)? This article was of interest because recovered memories
have fascinated me since the early 1980s. False memory syndrome
is one topic of many investigated by Fortean Times magazine. It
is a monthly magazine of "news, reviews, and research on strange
phenomena and experiences, curiosities, prodigies and portents."

Brief summary of source: Following the Satanic Ritual Abuse
(SRA) panics is tracing the origins of a modern witch hunt. In
1996, London psychotherapist Valerie Sinason in a National
Health Service study concluded that Satanic child abuse was
confirmed by the repetitive identical elements recounted by her
patients. However, child sacrifice, a common story element, has
neither been corroborated by dates and places of sacrifice or by
the discovery of remains. Some believers in SRA cite "historical
Satanism", but these too when researched are rife with
exaggerations and outright lies. Satanic organizations like the
Church of Satan exist and are legal. There is no law against
wearing black robes and intoning "Hail Satan!" The modern
revival of Paganism is not Satanic as they have their own
ethics, including doing no harm. 'Born Again' Christians, former
practicing Satanists, in the 1970s wrote of (adult) sex orgies
and slitting a cockerel's throat, and nary a word about child
abuse or human sacrifice. The tone changed with psychiatrist
Lawrence Pazder's book, Michelle Remembers, and the second phase
of the Satanic panic occurred in 1983 at Manhattan Beach, a
suburb of Los Angeles. Allegations of abuse at the McMartin Pre-
School were elicited from the children through repeat
interviews. All the Pre-School staff were accused of child
molestation and all were acquitted by 1990, after the most
expensive legal case in American legal history. From 1984, media
sensationalism about the new crime of SRA and California
psychotherapist Catherine Gould's 'indicators' of SRA spread
around the world leading to other pre-school cases. Seizing on
earlier cases the authorities and public were gripped by SRA
panic in the USA, Britain, Holland, Australia, and elsewhere.
Authorities in Britain took dozens of children into protective
custody; some yet to be returned, all based on the 'Satanic
indicators' acquired from U.S. sources. Writers on Satanism
repeated details without authenticating them, lead to police
investigations, children taken from parents, prosecutions,
prison sentences, and ruined careers (and lives.)

Implications of this information for Social Psychology: Social
workers, counselors, psychotherapists, the authorities and the
general public must develop critical thinking when considering
recovered memories. These stories are tragicomedies if just
sexual testing by aliens, extraterrestrial or otherwise; past
lives experiences, in the womb experiences, and abuse by
Satanic-cult members. Recovered memories planted by therapists
and others lead to unjust accusations, investigations, and
prosecutions for sex crimes that never occurred.

Presentation Strategy: To inform my peers of the dangers of
circumstantial evidence and the natural appeal to emotions when
alleged sex crimes against children are in the courts. Creating
memories in the distant past is easily done if childhood
'amnesia' is considered. Children before age three are almost
non-verbal; therefore, putting words in their mouths and in
their memories is relatively easy. Guided memory in repetitive
interviews, hypnosis, and the enticement of toys and other gifts
has been used to get circumstantial testimony from children.
This testimony has put parents, friends, and pre-school workers
in prison.

Evaluation: on time____appropriate topic____substantive____
summary____oral____








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Oct > Oct 24

             Re: Research Shows How False Memories Are Formed -

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 08:39:51 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 12:08:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Research Shows How False Memories Are Formed -


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 17:03:35 -0700
>Subject: Re: Research Shows How False Memories Are Formed

>>Source: Science Daily

>>http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/10/041022104848.htm
>>10-22-04

>>Researcher Shows How False Memories Are Formed

>Interesting as this may be for the psycho-social set, one might
>ask another question:

>How are _genuine_  memories taken and formed by the human mind?



False Memory Syndrome
Satanic Ritual Child Abuse
Terry W. Colvin
BEH 405 - Learning and Cognition
Professor - Dr. Loyd Ray Ganey Jr.
August 26, 2002


False Memory Syndrome
Satanic Ritual Child Abuse

Memory is poorly understood. Episodic memory is less understood
than semantic memory. The former is emotion and relationship
driven and more prone to recall distortion over long periods of
time than the semantic memory. We must keep in mind how fragile
and malleable is memory. False memory syndrome (FMS) is a
complex issue and has never been proven to exist. It does not
appear in the DSM-IV (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual). The
"syndrome" was declared to exist by the False Memory Syndrome
Foundation (FMSF). Some members have offered compensated
"expert" testimony for accused pedophiles. One member, Dr. Ralph
Underwager, believes pedophilia an acceptable life-style.
Another Foundation member, Dr. Michael Persinger, admits there
is no proof that FMS exists (Rickard, 1991).

Whenever you hear the impressive word "syndrome" thrown around
in a medical (or pseudo-medical) context, there is a high
likelihood that someone or some group is trying to mislead you.
"Syndrome" in the dictionary refers to the symptoms surrounding
a disease. So, just which disease are we discussing here? Is
there a False Memory Disease? True, I have become cynical, over
the years, regarding most self-selected abuse claims. One
exception is the McMartin children case. I am NOT a believer in
the Great Satanic Conspiracy, and I certainly have no bias
against occultism and the paranormal. Many "ritual abuse"
claimants have turned out to be outrageous liars. I strongly
encourage further reading of the notorious story of Lauren
Stratford. In recent years unsupported claims of ritual abuse
are routinely discounted and scoffed at.

Yes, I do believe pseudo-memories exist. There is no evil
psychiatrist conspiracy contrary to the FMS party line. Where
the FMSF blames the therapists for pseudo-memories, I blame
their "patients," who usually belong to a class of
women wedded to victimization fantasies.

Childcare workers involved often had their lives either
destroyed or marred, despite the fact their case never even made
it to trial. Local law enforcement, social workers, and
Christian group activists, among others, benefited from pursuing
these cases. For example, former U.S. Attorney General Janet
Reno was elected as Dade County District Attorney in 1978.
Convictions were overturned and charges dropped after
allegations of child sexual abuse, child pornography, forcing
children to take drugs, animal mutilations, and satanic rituals
could not be proved.

Brain Processes and Memory

Two people, who witness the same event, will often recall, years
later, different memories. An old memory pulled into
consciousness is pulled apart, updated, and then new proteins
are made to put the memory back into long-term storage. These
new proteins reflect each person's life experiences, not the
memory itself. Memory is unstable for about six hours and open
to manipulation. These findings may permit the recall of a
traumatic memory and then applying a drug to disrupt the
consolidation of that memory. Weaving incorrect as well as
correct information to create false memory places a person at
risk of believing
their memories are wholly reliable (Blakeslee, 2000).

Legal Implications

George Franklin was convicted in 1990 for murder of an eight-
year-old girl in 1969, the jury relying heavily on his
daughter's unreliable "repressed memory". His conviction was
overturned by a federal judge. Prosecutors abandoned pursuing a
retrial when Franklin's daughter falsely accused her father of a
second murder. The tsunami of "recovered" unpleasant repressed
memories peaked in the U.S. in the early 1990s. It divided and
damaged families and a source of polarized debate among
psychiatrists. Few of these therapists were medically qualified.
The False Memory Syndrome Foundation founded in Philadelphia in
1992 soon had a membership of 18,000 families; the British False
Memory Society founded the following year had 900 families
(Brahams, 2000).

Lawsuits originally directed at parents and family members
accused of child sexual abuse have, more recently, been directed
at therapists who helped patients recover memories later found
to be false. The issue has been polarized by labeling the
memories either false, recovered, or discovered. The devil is in
the details. Adding to this mix are counter transference
problems, disturbed therapists, and therapists who have been
victims of personal trauma. "Truths" in the therapist's
consultation room does not equal "facts" in the courtroom.
Judicial scrutiny may inspire (or force) higher standards of
education and training and more explicit ethical guidelines for
mental health professionals. This highly controversial
phenomenon hinges on what occurs inside the head "and"
what occurs outside the head (Sadoff, 2001).

Satanic Child Abuse*

Updating the Fortean Times (FT) 'Satanic Child Abuse' file is a
major case from New Zealand and news of four continuing cases.
Satanic ritual abuse is endemic in almost every English-speaking
territory, an indicator of culture rather than a global
conspiracy of the times. Peter Ellis, 35, a worker at
Christchurch [New Zealand] Civic Childcare Centre was sentenced
to ten years for 16 indecency charges, "obviously correct", per
the judge. Robert Kelly of the Little Rascals day-care centre in
Farmville, North Carolina was sentenced to 12 consecutive life
sentences for some of the 183 pedophilia charges. One tale had
children being fed to tanks full of hungry sharks. Kelly
Michaels of the Wee Care Day Nursery in Maplewood, New Jersey
was released from prison after serving four years of a 47-year
sentence. An appeal court ruled she had not had a fair trial.
She was alleged to have raped children with cutlery, licked
peanut butter off their genitals, and forced them to eat 'cakes'
of her feces, all this over three years in a busy church nursery
(Dash, 1993/1994).

Following the Satanic Ritual Abuse (SRA*) panics is tracing the
origins of a modern witch hunt. Child sacrifice, a common story
element, has neither been corroborated by dates and places of
sacrifice or by the discovery of remains. The modern revival of
Paganism is not Satanic as they have their own ethics, including
doing no harm. Allegations of abuse at the McMartin Pre-School
in Los Angeles were elicited from children through questionable
repeat interviews. Staff were accused of child molestation and
all were acquitted by 1990, after the most expensive legal case
in American legal history. Writers on Satanism repeated details
without authenticating them, leading to police investigations,
children taken from their parents, prosecutions, prison
sentences, and ruined careers (and lives) around the English-
speaking world (Medway, 2001). * Note: SCA and SRA are used
interchangeably in the literature.

Satanic child abuse (SCA) is a powerful fantasy spurred on by
evangelicals and welfare workers, disturbing much of society.
Alleged are organized groups of perverts and degenerates who go
beyond mere sexual abuse to murder and heresy (i.e., subversion
of 'good' Christian values. Evidence of cult activities is
lacking so we must go to the children for answers. Children's
ideas are vague and unquantifiable, or free fantasizing, or
malicious lying, or attempting to please the interrogator, or a
combination of these. Adult welfare workers deny 'coaching'
although personal beliefs in a Satanic conspiracy strongly taint
their work. Fundamentalists and na=EFve social workers may have
united in an unintended holy alliance (Rickard, 1991).

Recovered or False Memories

Skeptic magazine began in 1992, and has closely followed the
debate of recovered memories versus false memories of childhood
sexual abuse. British researchers at University College London
studied 236 adults with recovered memories showing many are of
true past events. Common belief is once more overturned. A
substantial ratio of these memories has been corroborated.
[British] therapists in most cases do not use aggressive or
suggestive techniques to trigger these memories; they come up
just as a matter of course during therapy. The study interviewed
108 "qualified" therapists about the 236 patients (Gibson,
2000). A false memory does not exist in pure form. Nor can we
very easily discriminate a false memory from a true memory. Both
contain fact and fiction. The difficulty is in how false
memories differ between children and adults. A tapestry of false
memories is woven from recovered memories of abuse, radical
feminism, new age movement, junk science, and conspiracy theory.
Understanding false memories remains in a state of flux. True,
partly true, false, and partly false memories defy definition
whether we are using brain imaging techniques, statement
validity analyses, or fuzzy-trace analyses (Howe, 2002).

Discussed are the physiological constructs of memory development
relating to a child's ability to recall alleged abuse
accurately. No single place for memory storage in the brain is
now widely accepted. Memory is shared by several brain regions,
including the hippocampus. Infant memory is affected by the
myelin sheathing of brain neurons, fairly complete by age two,
but some sheaths develop into adolescence. The corpus callosum
is one of the last parts of the brain to myelinate. One function
of the corpus callosum is to transfer information from one brain
hemisphere to another. Pure animism lives in the cognition of
young children. All things both animate and inanimate can think
and feel. Source amnesia, imagination, suggestibility, and
because memory is reconstructive leads to false memories.
Counselors should abstain from detailed querying of a child
until after official investigative interviews are completed.
This may avoid encouraging false or distorted recall (Hunter,
2001).

Bugs Bunny does not belong in Disneyland. This character belongs
to Warner Brothers. In a study 120 participants read Disneyland
advertisements. Half the ads gave general theme park information
and half mentioned Bugs Bunny. One-third of the participants
exposed to Bugs Bunny ads "remembered" these events as a
personal experience. Many added to the false memory by linking
Bugs to other Disneyland experiences not cited in the ad.
'Knowing' is having no real memory, but certain that it
happened. For example, having their umbilical cord cut at birth
or their foreskin circumcised soon after. Confabulation is
likely (Kline, 2001).

Aristotle's fixed image of memory of a "form" pressed in wax
solved the Platonic problem of the existence of "forms" without
the presence of the material object. Memory is now more
political with debates about false memory syndrome and Holocaust
deniers. Memories are made, not impressed. Can a nation remember
badly? The "Cadbury World" theme park in Birmingham [United
Kingdom] offers more than just a history of chocolate in an all-
too-sweet recollection. The great days of empire and energy are
not muted by the "real" events of the colonial experience. The
latest studies of memory have sparked a dialog between humanists
and scientists (McOuat, 2001).

Recovered Memory Therapy

Stocks' article hints that social workers should not assist
clients to recover memories, banning common treatments as
hypnosis, dream interpretation, analysis of flashbacks, and
support groups for survivors. Stocks makes a blanket request
that social workers avoid memory work. Stocks implies there is a
broad technique known as "recovered memory therapy"; there is
not. Research shows that recovered memories are as likely to be
accurate as those never forgotten. Therapists know patients
often decompensate when therapy is not attuned to the patient's
reality. This means working with memories and even splits in the
client's understanding of his or her self. Ann W. Aukamp's
letter is followed by three more letters with similar comments
(Aukamp, 1999).

Two experiments with subjects studying word lists in
collaborative perceived group recall (PGR) tests show that false
memories can be socially transmitted. Semantic associates (e.g.,
dream) would result in recalling a critical word (e.g., sleep)
that was not presented. Instead of reporting these false
recognized words as only familiar or "known," subjects reported
"remembering" such words. Warning subjects that fellow subjects
may introduce false information reduce false memory. Overall
findings showed that the subject's personal belief that the
false information occurred was the driving force
instead of public conformity (Basden, 2002).

Recovered Memory Therapy (RMT) was introduced into North America
by Gloria Steinem's Swiss analyst, Alice Miller, and began to
circulate in therapeutic circles in the mid eighties. "Memory
enhancement" or recovered memories were popularized by two
lesbian writers and soon adopted by people with low self-esteem,
eating disorders, anger towards their fathers, and other mid-
life problems and recovered memories of incest. Pastoral
counselors were soon recovering memories of Satanic cult ritual
abuse (SRA). Therapists and social workers are accused of
fostering quackery. The syndrome is defined as a condition where
a traumatic experience is objectively false but in which the
person intensely believes (Mak, 2001).

Alien Abduction Side-Show

Our evangelical culture and untested personal testimony is at
the core of irrationalism in America. The prevalence of
psychiatric therapy focuses on giving subjective and anecdotal
accounts an air of normality. A marriage of psychology and
religion leads inevitably to hysteria of satanic ritual abuse
(recovered memories) and by extension abduction and
experimentation by aliens. Irrationalism and piety are of no
concern if no harm occurs to yourself or others (Kaminer, 1999).
My look into the rumors that Budd Hopkins took sexual advantage
of "abductees" resulted in my hunch that all such accusations
are groundless. Although Hopkins has no formal training in
psychiatry his lying or self-deluded accusers fit the "blame the
shrink" category. Conclusions

The compelling need to protect children from sexual molestation
is mirrored by the need to reign in the wilder statements
elicited from children. Although False Memory Syndrome is not
recognized by medical science, the encouragement of critical
thinking among social workers, counselors, psychotherapists, the
authorities, and the general public is necessary to prevent
recurrences of abuses to childcare workers, the children, and
the families of all involved.

These stories are tragicomedies if just sexual testing by
aliens, extraterrestrial or other; past lives experiences; in
the womb experiences; and abuse by Satanic-cult members.
Recovered memories planted by therapists, innocently or not, and
the manipulations of patients have lead to unjust accusations,
investigations, and prosecutions for sexual abuse and other
crimes
that never occurred.

The pre-school and nursery satanic ritual abuse hysteria in the
U.S. in the 1980s and in the United Kingdom in 1990 and beyond
were fed, it seems, on ancient fears of devils, strangers, and
child abduction; all common in folklore. These panics collapsed
under the sheer weight and the preposterous nature of
allegations. The five major UK scares resulted in 69 children
being made wards of the court. Nine adults were imprisoned on
charges of child abuse not including ritual abuse, and three
more still face similar charges. One social service chief has
resigned (Rickard, 1991).

Child sacrifice, a common story element, has neither been
corroborated by dates and places of sacrifice or by the
discovery of remains (Medway, 2001). Some believers in Satanic
Ritual Abuse cite "historical Satanism", but these too when
researched are rife with exaggerations and outright lies.
Satanic organizations like the Church of Satan exist and are
legal. The modern revival of Paganism is not Satanic as they
have their own ethics, including worship of nature and doing no
harm. The first outbreak of Satanic panic occurred in 1983 at
Manhattan Beach, a suburb of Los Angeles. The McMartin Pre-
School case is the best known of SRA in America. From 1984,
media sensationalism about the new crime of SRA and California
psychotherapist Catherine Gould's 'indicators' of SRA spread
around the world leading to other pre-school cases. Seizing on
earlier cases the authorities and public were gripped by SRA
panic in the U.S., Britain, Holland,
Australia, New Zealand, and elsewhere (Medway, 2001).

Everyone must guard against the dangers of circumstantial
evidence and the natural appeal to emotions when alleged sex and
SRA crimes against children are in the courts. Creating memories
in the distant past is easily done if childhood "amnesia" is
considered. Children before age three are almost non-verbal,
therefore, putting words in their mouths and in their memories
is relatively easy. Guided memory in repetitive interviews,
hypnosis, and the enticement of toys and other gifts has been
used to get circumstantial testimony from children. This
testimony has put parents, friends, and pre-school workers in
prison.

References
Aukamp, A.W., Fournier, R.R., Weeks, B.L., & Boumgarden, J.
(1999, September). Letters in response to "Recovered Memory
Therapy: A dubious practice technique". Social Work, 44, 484.

Basden, B.H., Basden, D.R., & Reysen, M.B. (2002, Summer).
Transmitting false memories in social groups. The American
Journal of Psychology, 115, 211-311.

Blakeslee, B. (2000, September 19). Brain-Updating machinery may
explain false memories. Retrieved June 16, 2002 from:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2000/sep/m20-004.shtml

or

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/09/19/science/19MEMO.html

Brahams, D. (2000, July 29). "Repressed memories" and the law.
The Lancet, 356, 358.

Dash, M. (1993/1994, December/January). Bedeviled. Fortean
Times, 72, 47-49.

Gibson, S. (2000). Recovered or false memories? Skeptic, 8, 19.

Howe, M.L. (2002, Summer). The truth about false memories. The
American Journal of Psychology,115, 308-314.

Hunter, D.A., & Ballard, M.B. (2001, Fall). Memory development
in children: Implications for children as witnesses in
situations of possible abuse. Journal of Counseling and
Development, 79, 398-404.

Kaminer, W. (1999). Sleeping with extra-terrestrials: The rise
of irrationalism and perils of piety. New York, NY: Pantheon
Books, a division of Random House, Inc.

Kline, H. (2001, November/December). Are you remembering events
that never occurred? Psychology Today, 34, 16.

Mak, A. (2001, February 20). Recovered memories: Banking on
memories. Retrieved July 16, 2002 from:

http://tsw.odyssey.on.ca/~balancebeam/courts/memories.htm

McOuat, G. (2001, April). Memory. Canadian Journal of History,
36, 202-205.

Medway, G.J. (2001, November). Satan in suburbia. Retrieved July
17, 2002 from:

http://217.206.205.129/articles/152_satanicpanic.shtml

Rickard, Bob. (1991, Spring). Satanic child abuse mania. Fortean
Times 57, 54-57.

Sadoff, R.L. (2001, July). Recovered memories of child sexual
abuse: Psychological, social, and legal perspectives on a
contemporary mental health controversy. The American Journal of
Psychiatry, 158, 1174-1175.


TABLE OF CONTENTS

INTRODUCTION ................................... 1
BRAIN PROCESSES AND MEMORY ..................... 3
LEGAL IMPLICATIONS ............................. 4
SATANIC CHILD ABUSE ............................ 5
RECOVERED OR FALSE MEMORIES .................... 6
RECOVERED MEMORY THERAPY ....................... 8
ALIEN ABDUCTION SIDE SHOW ...................... 9
CONCLUSIONS ................................... 10
REFERENCES .................................... 13

ABSTRACT
False memory syndrome is based loosely on a concept not peer
reviewed in professional psychiatric circles. Satanic ritual
child abuse is only one type of recovered memories. Recovered
memories planted by therapists and/or through manipulation by
the patient have destroyed and marred lives.







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Oct > Oct 24

             Re: Research Shows How False Memories Are Formed -

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 08:44:17 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 12:11:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Research Shows How False Memories Are Formed -



Terry W. Colvin
Western International University
BEH 490 - Contemporary Issues
Professor - Dr. Loyd Ray Ganey Jr.
September 30, 2002

Bennett, C. (2001, August). Manchurian Candy. Fortean Times 148,
34-39. The world knew Candy Jones as one of the most successful
American fashion models of the 1940s; however, she led a secret
life as a "Manchurian Candidate" agent for the U.S. intelligence
services during the Cold War. Her life is analyzed in this tale
of multiple personality, conspiracy, and hypnotic mind control
and fantasy life.

Carroll, R.T. (2002, March 24). the Skeptic's Dictionary: mind
control (brainwashing). Retrieved September 4, 2002 from
http://www.skepdic.com/mindcont.html

Mind control is defined as the partial successful control of the
thoughts and actions of another without his or her consent. True
mind control exists only in fantasy. Mind control misperceptions
range from the family raising children to nation-state
propaganda. One definition of mind control is controlling
another person. Total hypnosis or electronically programming a
person to carry out your commands without their knowledge is a
clear case of mind control. Such "Hollywood" fiction is not
imitated in real life. The following are not types of mind
control: advertising; quid pro quo sexual seduction; behavioral
feedback through self-discipline, workshops, and clinics; date
rape drugging; sympathy towards your kidnapper; some recruiting
for religious, spiritual, or New Age groups; the Chinese
"brainwashing" of captured Americans and others in the Korean
War; creation of Voodoo zombies; and harassment with infrasound
or electromagnetic pulse generators. Fear or force to coerce
people is no longer effective when that threat diminishes or
disappears. You can "vote" with your feet. Even those who
believe they have been abducted and now are controlled by aliens
are treated by therapists for their fantasies or delusions,
notwithstanding the work of John Mack, an MIT professor. Tinfoil
hats provide no protection. Critical thinking does.

Fuselier, G.D. (1999, July). Placing the Stockholm Syndrome in
perspective. Retrieved September 5, 2002 from
http://proquest.umi.com/ and FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin

In 1973 an escaped convict took four bank employees hostage in
Stockholm, Sweden. After 131 hours the ordeal ended but the
hostages reported no ill will towards their captors and stated
they feared the police. Psychologists call this the Stockholm
Syndrome. This coping mechanism is also called Survival
Identification Syndrome, Common Sense Syndrome or simply
transference. Three components occurring singly or in
combination are negative feelings by the hostage towards
authorities, positive feelings by the hostage towards the
captor, and the hostage taker reciprocating. This syndrome is
the exception rather than the rule. The FBI's Hostage/Barricade
System (HOBAS) database shows no aspect of Stockholm Syndrome by
92 percent of the victims. Most hostages feared death and
accepted that law enforcement was on their side, although some
were naturally frustrated by the pace of negotiations.
Misconceptions abound from the alleged consensual sex a female
hostage had with one of her captors. Negative feelings toward
police stem from the often slow pace of negotiations and the
danger of an impending police assault. A positive feeling by
some hostages towards captors is a natural sympathy for the
underdog and rationalization that the captors aren't such bad
people. Hostage takers may show compassion towards one or more
of the hostages. Fiction, film, and the media distort the
reality of the rarity of this phenomenon.

Hagart, J. (2002, July 3). The Short Introduction to Jim
Hagart's Subliminal World. Retrieved September 29, 2002 from
http://www.subliminalworld.com/SHORT.HTM

"The Site is primarily intended to help bring the subject of
semi-subliminal advertising to the attention of consumers who
might otherwise never give any thought to advertising material
that attempts to manipulate their ideas and behaviour.
 Additionally the examples are presented in order to refute the
continual protestations of advertising professionals that there
is no such phenomenon as subliminal advertising. They know damn
well there is. However, they also know it is not truly
subliminal in nature, it is actually semi-subliminal. They
therefore continually draw attention to old history and never to
their own actions."

Leaders: The future of mind control; Neuroscience. (2002, May
25). Retrieved September 5, 2002 from http://proquest.umi.com
and The Economist

By 2012 scientist scanning a person's brain may be able to
predict not only a tendency to mental sickness, but also
tendency to depression or violence. Neural implants may speed up
reflexes or increase intelligence. Brain-related ills from
paralysis to shyness will be treated by neuroscience without a
public debate over the ethical limits. They are only restrained
by standard codes of medical ethics and experimentation. Society
sees no distinction between treatment and enhancement of the
brain. A public debate on these limits is long overdue.
Government bans and public statements will not stop rogue
scientists performing experiments.

Melechi, A. (2000, September). Truth in Small Doses. Fortean
Times 137, 40-44. Western doctors, scientists, and intelligence
agencies have long sought the holy grail of a drug that would
make criminals, spies, and subversives incapable of lying. This
is the history of the search to discover a 'truth serum'.
Webster's Dictionary in the 1930s (second edition) defined truth
serum as "a drug administered to induce temporary truthfulness."
Similar to confessions given under scopolamine, mind control
revelations remain an uneasy mix of part fact, part folly, and
part paranoia.

Mind Control. (1997). Turner Original Productions. Color, 50
minutes. Narrator: Donald Sutherland.

A provocative look into the world of espionage and the
controversial techniques employed by the government agencies to
gain access and control of people's minds. We'll examine
recently declassified CIA files which expose a shocking secret
program which for years practiced brainwashing to program
assassins and obtain information. Hear from doctors and
participants and see never-before-seen film footage of these
secret mind control sessions.

Ostrander, S. & Schroeder, L. (1970). Psychic Discoveries Behind
the Iron Curtain. Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice-Hall, Inc.

Manipulating the consciousness with telepathy and guiding him in
trance are key methods in Soviet research to subliminally
control behavior. The psyche lies outside the sphere of physical
science or knowledge. Even the Oxford dictionary fails to list
any item in this book such as "brain control" or "mind patrol"
under their psychic headings. A point of semantic fact is that
occult simply means 'hidden.' Basic science is the search for
knowledge and the application of science or technology is
concerned with research. The basic science scientists are
philosophers and the applied scientists are technicians. The
three areas of existence are the spiritual, the scientific, and
what used to be called the metaphysical but today is called
psychic.

Sargant, W. (1957). Battle for the mind. Garden City, NY:
Doubleday & Company, Inc.

The author is a leading physician in psychological medicine. His
purpose is not the truth or falsity of any religion or political
belief, rather the physiological mechanisms involved in the
fixing or destroying of such beliefs in the human brain. The
basic technique used by evangelists, psychiatrists, and brain-
washers is to find a man's worry or anxiety, inflame the fear or
guilt, stress the brain and nervous system, and after collapse
in the chaos of uncertainty the subject may be susceptible to
new patterns of behavior and thought. This technique is used by
snake-handling cults, Chinese Communists in leadership training
courses, by the police of many nations, and revivalists. "Mind-
drugs" to help the mentally ill and how to avoid indoctrination
and how to consolidate changes in belief and behavior are
included.

Schrag, P. (1978). Mind Control. New York, NY: Pantheon
Books/Random House, Inc. His previous work, The Myth of the
Hyperactive Child, on new ways to control children in today's
America is extended in this book on more "therapeutic" methods
of control. Our tens of millions of prescriptions for
tranquilizers has "progressed" to electroshock, psychotropic
drugs, behavior modification, psychosurgery, brain implants,
electronic surveillance, and the organizing of personal
information to institutionalize people outside of institutions.
The extreme outcome could be a whole country with drugged
behavior, endless manipulations, and loss of some freedoms.

Sheaffer, R. (2001, November/December). Conspire this! Retrieved
September 5, 2002 from http:proquest.umi.com and The Skeptical
Inquirer

Mark Phillips and Cathy O'Brien hosted a paranoia convention on
alleged shadowy organizations as the Illuminati, the New World
Order, and the MKULTRA S

See:

http://www.trance-formation.com/

Speakers elaborated on British royalty deriving from
extraterrestrial lizards, "chemtrail" are unlike normal jet
contrails and are either government efforts to forestall global
warming or mass vaccination against an unknown threat,
alternative medicine blocked by organized medicine conspiracy
(AMA), and these are just a few of the topics.

Singer, M.T. (1995). Cults in Our Midst. Retrieved September 18,
2002 from:

http://www.factnet.org/singer.htm?FACTNet

Dr. Singer summarizes fifty years of work on the subject. In the
1950s, as a senior psychologist in the laboratory of psychology
at the Walter Reed Army Institute of Research, she worked with
Dr. Robert Jay Lifton and others who were studying prisoners of
war from the Korean War. It was there that she first encountered
the forms of coercive persuasion, or thought reform programs,
that not only prisoners of war but also civilians in a variety
of milieus had been exposed to. By the 1960s Dr. Singer states,
"I began to hear from families who had missing members --
 usually the missing person was young, between eighteen and
twenty-five years old, and had become involved with one or
another of the cultic groups that were just taking hold in those
years. The family, and others who knew the person, told about a
sudden change in personality, a new way of talking, a
restriction of emotions, a splitting from family and the past.
Not all cults are religious, as some people think. Their reasons
for existing may concern religion, life-style, politics, or
assorted philosophies. Myriads of false messiahs, quacks, and
leaders of cults and thought-reform groups have emerged who use
Orwellian mind-manipulation techniques. They recruit the
curious, the unaffiliated, the trusting, and the altruistic.
Promised utopias, but they have also described their downsides,
which might be called negative utopias. In 1949, George Orwell
wrote about the negative utopia he feared would evolve, perhaps
by 1984. Others before him, such as Daniel Defoe, Aldous Huxley,
and Jack London, had also written about negative utopias where
critical thinking had been almost totally abolished.

Staples, B. (2002, February 1). EnterPatty Hearst, and Some
Other Ghosts From the 60's. Retrieved September 5, 2002 from
http://proquest.umi.com/ and The New York Times

Patty Hearst participated in two bank robberies, sprayed a
street with gunfire to cover two SLA shoplifters, and helped
make several taped messages that spouted SLA rhetoric. The U.S.
Attorney General, William Saxbe, called her "nothing but a
common criminal." Her wealthy family spent a great deal of money
to set her apart from other SLA soldiers. The legal team which
included F. Lee Bailey, lived in 35 rooms in a ritzy San
Francisco hotel during the four-month trial. Her brainwashing
defense failed. Jurors believed she acted on her own and could
have escaped, sentencing her to seven years in prison for bank
robbery. She served 22 months before President Jimmy Carter
commuted her sentence. Once again money and influence twisted
justice. In 2001 Patty Hearst received a full pardon from
President Clinton on his last day in office, one of 140 pardons
and 36 commutations.


Tobias, M.L., Lalich, J. (1994). Captive Hearts, Captive Minds.
Retrieved September 15, 2002 from:

http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing18.html

Cults may be large or small. What defines them is not their size
but their behavior. In addition to the larger, more publicized
cults, there are small cults of less than a dozen members who
follow a particular "guru"; "family cults," where the head of
the family uses deceptive and excessive persuasion and control
techniques; and probably the least acknowledged, the one-on-one
cult. The one-on-one cult is a deliberately manipulative and
exploitative intimate relationship between two persons, often
involving physical abuse of the subordinate partner. Other one-
on-one cults may be found in boss/employee situations, in
pastor/worshipper milieus, in therapist/client relationships, in
jailor/prisoner or interrogator/suspect situations, and in
teacher/student environments including academic, artistic, and
spiritual situations. For example, a school professor, a yoga
master, a martial arts instructor, or an art mentor. Since the
upsurge of both public and professional interest in the issue of
domestic violence, there has been some recognition to the link
between mind control and battering, that is, manipulative
techniques similar to those found in cults. Warning indicators
are early verbal and/or physical dominance,
isolation/imprisonment, fear arousal and maintenance, guilt
induction, contingent expressions of "love", enforced loyalty to
the aggressor and self-denunciation, promotion of powerlessness
and helplessness, pathological expressions of jealousy, hope-
instilling behaviors, and required secrecy.

Woo, E. (1999, April 4). CIA's Gottlieb ran LSD mind control
testing: Scientist, who died at 80, oversaw invention of devices
for assassination and gave 'acid' to human guinea pigs.
Retrieved September 5, 2002 from http://proquest.umi.com and The
Los Angeles Times

The CIA's Sidney Gottlieb, a Bronx-born biochemist, and
concocted espionage tools such as disappearing inks, poison
darts, and toxic handkerchiefs. Gottlieb and associates in
MKULTRA took LSD "trips." Coffee randomly laced with LSD was
served to unsuspecting co-workers and then reactions were
observed. Testing soon extended outside the Agency to drug
addicts, prostitutes, prisoners, and mental patients. These
people were unlikely to complain. A CIA-sponsored brothel in San
Francisco became the epicenter of the LSD explosion. Lysergic
acid diethylamide or LSD was discovered by Dr. Albert Hofman, a
Swiss chemist, in 1943. From the early 1950s to 1972, the Agency
conducted 149 mind control experiments, 25 on unwitting
subjects. When halting the psychedelic experiments Gottlieb
concluded, "too unpredictable in their effects on individual
human beings =85 to be operationally useful."









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   Oct > Oct 24

               Re: Any 'Unsung' Heroes In Ufology? - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 12:36:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 12:52:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Any 'Unsung' Heroes In Ufology? - Maccabee


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 17:35:47 EDT
>Subject: Any 'Unsung' Heroes In Ufology?

>The Unsung Heroes Of Aviation & Space Flight...

>Any 'Unsung' Heroes In Ufology?

>Well, in my secret identity I'm also an aircraft, space flight
>afficianado. I've noticed many posts here about our space
>programs and astronauts.

>So one fellow I asked about the 'unsung' heroes of these fields
>is good ol' Al Bowers of NASA. He then put up a list of people
>he felt deserved the recognition of the public. His list brought
>back memories of when I was a kid meeting astronauts and pilots
>and ground technicians and such. Brought a tear to m' eye. Back

<snip>

>Gemini 3 23mar65 Grissom Young
>Gemini 4 03jun65 McDivitt White
>Gemini 5 21aug65 Cooper Conrad
>Gemini 6A 15dec65 Schirra Stafford
>Gemini 7 04dec65 Borman Lovell
>Gemini 8 15mar66 Armstrong Scott
>Gemini 9A 03jun66 Stafford Cernan
>Gemini 10 18jul66 Young Collins
>Gemini 11 12sep66 Conrad Gordon
>Gemini 12 11nov66 Lovell Aldrin


Two of these men are UFO witness... although they appear to not
be aware of that.

Conrad/Gordon, Gemini 11 saw and photographed a never-identified
something traveling near their spacecraft in Sept, 1966.

This was discussed and incorrectly identified in the Condon
report. NASA considers it unidentified. For more info see:

http://brumac.8k.com

and scroll down








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             Re: Research Shows How False Memories Are Formed -

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 08:41:23 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 12:47:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Research Shows How False Memories Are Formed -


FALSE MEMORY SYNDROME

Terry W. Colvin
Western International University
BEH 405 - Learning and Cognition
Professor - Dr. Loyd Ray Ganey Jr.
July 22, 2002


Aukamp, A.W., Fournier, R.R., Weeks, B.L., & Boumgarden, J.
(1999, September). Letters in response to "Recovered Memory
Therapy: A dubious practice technique". Social Work, 44, 484.

Stocks' article hints that social workers should not assist
clients to recover memories, banning common treatments as
hypnosis, dream interpretation, analysis of flashbacks, and
support groups for survivors. Stocks makes a blanket request
that social workers avoid memory work. Stocks implies there is a
broad technique known as "recovered memory therapy"; there is
not. Research shows that recovered memories are as likely to be
accurate as those never forgotten. Therapists know patients
often decompensate when therapy is not attuned to the patient's
reality. This means working with memories and even splits in the
client's understanding of his or her self. Ann W. Aukamp's
letter is followed by three more letters with similar comments.

Basden, B.H., Basden, D.R., & Reysen, M.B. (2002, Summer).
Transmitting false memories in social groups. The American
Journal of Psychology, 115, 211-311.

Two experiments with subjects studying word lists in
collaborative perceived group recall (PGR) tests show that false
memories can be socially transmitted. Semantic associates (e.g.,
dream) would result in recalling a critical word (e.g., sleep)
that was not presented. Instead of reporting these false
recognized words as only familiar or "known," subjects reported
"remembering" such words. Warning subjects that fellow subjects
may introduce false information reduce false memory. Overall
findings showed that the subject's personal belief that the
false information occurred was the driving force instead of
public conformity.

Blakeslee, B. (2000, September 19). Brain-Updating machinery may
explain false memories. Retrieved June 16, 2002 from
http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2000/sep/m20-
004.shtml or
http://www.nytimes.com/2000/09/19/science/19MEMO.html

Two people, who witness the same event, will often recall, years
later, different memories. An old memory pulled into
consciousness is pulled apart, updated, and then new proteins
are made to put the memory back into long-term storage. These
new proteins reflect each person's life experiences, not the
memory itself. Memory is unstable for about six hours and open
to manipulation. These findings may permit the recall of a
traumatic memory and then applying a drug to disrupt the
consolidation of that memory. Weaving incorrect as well as
correct information to create false memory places a person at
risk of believing their memories are wholly reliable.

Brahams, D. (2000, July 29). "Repressed memories" and the law.
The Lancet, 356, 358.

George Franklin was convicted in 1990 for murder of an eight-
year-old girl in 1969, the jury relying heavily on his
daughter's unreliable "repressed memory". His conviction was
overturned by a federal judge. Prosecutors abandoned pursuing a
retrial when Franklin's daughter falsely accused her father of a
second murder. The tsunami of "recovered" unpleasant repressed
memories peaked in the U.S. in the early 1990s. It divided and
damaged families and a source of polarized debate among
psychiatrists. Few of these therapists were medically qualified.
The False Memory Syndrome Foundation founded in Philadelphia in
1992 soon had a membership of 18,000 families; the British False
Memory Society founded the following year had 900 families.

Dash, M. (1993/1994, December/January). Bedeviled. Fortean
Times, 72, 47-49.

Updating the Fortean Times (FT) 'Satanic Child Abuse' file is a
major case from New Zealand and news of four continuing cases.
Satanic ritual abuse is endemic in almost every English-speaking
territory, an indicator of culture rather than a global
conspiracy of the times. Peter Ellis, 35, a worker at
Christchurch [New Zealand] Civic Childcare Centre was sentenced
to ten years for 16 indecency charges, "obviously correct", per
the judge. Robert Kelly of the Little Rascals day-care centre in
Farmville, North Carolina was sentenced to 12 consecutive life
sentences for some of the 183 pedophilia charges. One tale had
children being fed to tanks full of hungry sharks. Kelly
Michaels of the Wee Care Day Nursery in Maplewood, New Jersey
was released from prison after serving four years of a 47-year
sentence. An appeal court ruled she had not had a fair trial.
She was alleged to have raped children with cutlery, licked
peanut butter off their genitals, and forced them to eat 'cakes'
of her feces, all this over three years in a busy church
nursery.

Gibson, S. (2000). Recovered or false memories? Skeptic, 8, 19.

Skeptic magazine began in 1992, has closely followed the debate
of recovered memories versus false memories of childhood sexual
abuse. British researchers at University College London studied
236 adults with recovered memories showing many are of true past
events. Common belief is once more overturned. A substantial
ratio of these memories has been corroborated. [British]
therapists in most cases do not use aggressive or suggestive
techniques to trigger these memories; they come up just as a
matter of course during therapy. The study interviewed 108
"qualified" therapists about the 236 patients.

Howe, M.L. (2002, Summer). The truth about false memories. The
American Journal of Psychology,115, 308-314.

A false memory does not exist in pure form. Nor can we very
easily discriminate a false memory from a true memory. Both
contain fact and fiction. The difficulty is in how false
memories differ between children and adults. A tapestry of false
memories is woven from recovered memories of abuse, radical
feminism, new age movement, junk science, and conspiracy theory.
Understanding false memories remains in a state of flux. True,
partly true, false, and partly false memories defy definition
whether we are using brain imaging techniques, statement
validity analyses, or fuzzy-trace analyses.

Hunter, D.A., & Ballard, M.B. (2001, Fall). Memory development
in children: Implications for children as witnesses in
situations of possible abuse. Journal of Counseling and
Development, 79, 398-404.

Discussed are the physiological constructs of memory development
relating to a child's ability to recall alleged abuse
accurately. No single place for memory storage in the brain is
now widely accepted. Memory is shared by several brain regions,
including the hippocampus. Infant memory is affected by the
myelin sheathing of brain neurons, fairly complete by age two,
but some sheaths develop into adolescence. The corpus callosum
is one of the last parts of the brain to myelinate. One function
of the corpus callosum is to transfer information from one brain
hemisphere to another. Pure animism lives in the cognition of
young children. All things both animate and inanimate can think
and feel. Source amnesia, imagination, suggestibility, and
because memory is reconstructive leads to false memories.
Counselors should abstain from detailed querying of a child
until after official investigative interviews are completed.
This may avoid encouraging false or distorted recall.

Kaminer, W. (1999). Sleeping with extra-terrestrials: The rise
of irrationalism and perils of piety. New York, NY: Pantheon
Books, a division of Random House, Inc.

Our evangelical culture and untested personal testimony is at
the core of irrationalism in America. The prevalence of
psychiatric therapy focuses on giving subjective and anecdotal
accounts an air of normality. A marriage of psychology and
religion leads inevitably to hysteria of satanic ritual abuse
(recovered memories) and by extension abduction and
experimentation by aliens. Irrationalism and piety are of no
concern if no harm occurs to yourself or others.

Kline, H. (2001, November/December). Are you remembering events
that never occurred? Psychology Today, 34, 16.

Bugs Bunny does not belong in Disneyland. This character belongs
to Warner Brothers. In a study 120 participants read Disneyland
advertisements. Half the ads gave general theme park information
and half mentioned Bugs Bunny. One-third of the participants
exposed to Bugs Bunny ads "remembered" these events as a
personal experience. Many added to the false memory by linking
Bugs to other Disneyland experiences not cited in the ad.
'Knowing' is having no real memory, but certain that it
happened. For example, having their umbilical cord cut at birth
or their foreskin circumcised soon after. Confabulation is
likely.

Mak, A. (2001, February 20). Recovered memories: Banking on
memories. Retrieved July 16, 2002 from
http://tsw.odyssey.on.ca/~balancebeam/courts/memories.htm

Recovered Memory Therapy (RMT) was introduced into North America
by Gloria Steinem's Swiss analyst, Alice Miller, and began to
circulate in therapeutic circles in the mid eighties. "Memory
enhancement" or recovered memories were popularized by two
lesbian writers and soon adopted by people with low self-esteem,
eating disorders, anger towards their fathers, and other mid-
life problems and recovered memories of incest. Pastoral
counselors were soon recovering memories of Satanic cult ritual
abuse (SRA). Therapists and social workers are accused of
fostering quackery. The syndrome is defined as a condition where
a traumatic experience is objectively false but in which the
person intensely believes.

McOuat, G. (2001, April). Memory. Canadian Journal of History,
36, 202-205.

Aristotle's fixed image of memory of a "form" pressed in wax
solved the Platonic problem of the existence of "forms" without
the presence of the material object. Memory is now more
political with debates about false memory syndrome and Holocaust
deniers. Memories are made, not impressed. Can a nation remember
badly? The "Cadbury World" theme park in Birmingham [United
Kingdom] offers more than just a history of chocolate in an all-
too-sweet recollection. The great days of empire and energy are
not muted by the "real" events of the colonial experience. The
latest studies of memory have sparked a dialog between humanists
and scientists.

Medway, G.J. (2001, November). Satan in suburbia. Retrieved July
17, 2002 from
http://217.206.205.129/articles/152_satanicpanic.shtml

Following the Satanic Ritual Abuse (SRA) panics is tracing the
origins of a modern witch hunt. Child sacrifice, a common story
element, has neither been corroborated by dates and places of
sacrifice or by the discovery of remains. The modern revival of
Paganism is not Satanic as they have their own ethics, including
doing no harm. Allegations of abuse at the McMartin Pre-School
in Los Angeles were elicited from children through questionable
repeat interviews. Staff accused of child molestation and
acquitted by 1990, after the most expensive legal case in
American legal history. Writers on Satanism repeated details
without authenticating them, leading to police investigations,
children taken from their parents, prosecutions, prison
sentences, and ruined careers (and lives) around the English-
speaking world.

Rickard, Bob. (1991, Spring). Satanic child abuse mania. Fortean
Times 57, 54-57.

Satanic child abuse (SCA) is a powerful fantasy spurred on by
evangelicals and welfare workers, disturbing much of society.
Alleged are organized groups of perverts and degenerates who go
beyond mere sexual abuse to murder and heresy (i.e., subversion
of 'good' Christian values. Evidence of cult activities is
lacking so we must go to the children for answers. Children's
ideas are vague and unquantifiable, or free fantasizing, or
malicious lying, or attempting to please the interrogator, or a
combination of these. Adult welfare workers deny 'coaching'
although personal beliefs in a Satanic conspiracy strongly taint
their work. Fundamentalists and na=EFve social workers may have
united in an unintended holy alliance.

Sadoff, R.L. (2001, July). Recovered memories of child sexual
abuse: Psychological, social, and legal perspectives on a
contemporary mental health controversy. The American Journal of
Psychiatry, 158, 1174-1175.

Lawsuits originally directed at parents and family members
accused of child sexual abuse have, more recently, been directed
at therapists who helped patients recover memories later found
to be false. The issue has been polarized by labeling the
memories either false, recovered, or discovered. The devil is in
the details. Adding to this mix are counter transference
problems, disturbed therapists, and therapists who have been
victims of personal trauma. "Truths" in the therapist's
consultation room does not equal "facts" in the courtroom.
Judicial scrutiny may inspire (or force) higher standards of
education and training and more explicit ethical guidelines for
mental health professionals. This highly controversial
phenomenon hinges on what occurs inside the head "and" what
occurs outside the head.








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   Oct > Oct 25

                          Re: Gordon Cooper - Koch

From: Joachim Koch <lists.nul>
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 16:10:49 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 06:57:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Koch


>From: Jim Oberg <joberg.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 18:46:04 -0500
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>I ordered my own copy of the report and the film images
>from the
>National Archives in college Park, Maryland - and got it.


Hello Jim,

I am just updating my Edwards report because some of the links
do not work anymore.

So I would like to put a link to your website. But please tell
me: where can I find the film images on the web?


Thank you.

Joachim Koch

-----------------------------------------
GERMAN CROP CIRCLE RESEARCH
Breaking news about Project Toliman see:
http://www.kochkyborg.de
Requests for lectures under:
protoliman.nul
-----------------------------------------








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             Re: Research Shows How False Memories Are Formed -

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 08:50:03 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 07:01:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Research Shows How False Memories Are Formed -


Topic: Narcotics Hypocrisy
Chapter 14: "Directions for Society"
Chapter 15: "Some Points on Theory and Research"


Quotes:

"Take me, I am the drug; take me, I am hallucinogenic."
 --Salvador Dali

"Marijuana is... self-punishing. It makes you
acutely sensitive, and in this world, what worse punishment
could there be?" --P. J. O'Rourke

"Which is better: to have Fun with Fungi or to have Idiocy with
Ideology, to have Wars because of Words, to have Tomorrow's
Misdeeds out of Yesterday's Miscreeds? --Aldous Huxley

WWW Site #1: Bourne, P. (2000). Frontline: drugs wars:
interview: Peter Bourne.
Retrieved August 19, 2003, from:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/drugs/interviews/bourne.html

Dr. Bourne was tapped by Governor Carter to set up drug
treatment programs in Georgia. He states that Dr. Jerome Jaffe's
work was much admired. He states that we would be better off
today if treatment had been widely available. Treatment stopped
addicts from 'infecting' potential addicts much like limiting
infectious disease. Wean the farmers away from growing drug
crops through crop substitution. Only penalize the major
traffickers. Marijuana is not seen as a serious public health
problem.


WWW Site #2: Homer, A., Dillon, D. (2000, January 11). Web of Addictions.
Retrieved August 19, 2003, from:

http://www.well.com/user/woa/

I feel like my own grandpa when I say things like I am about to
say, but "back in '95 when Andy and I started the Web of
Addictions, there wasn't a whole lot of information available on
the Internet." It's true. I remember talking about how easy it
was to find directions for making methamphetamine in your
bathtub, but how hard it was to find out about recovery methods
or treatment centers. C. Everett Koop was one of the most
popular and outspoken Surgeons General the United States has
ever had. He resigned that post nearly 11 years ago, but has
continued to affect the health of America and the world in other
positions. A true "far-thinker", Koop is behind one of the most
viewed and trusted medically oriented web sites:

http://www.drkoop.com

The site is comprehensive and thorough. Among the topics tackled
are alcoholism, smoking, and drug abuse. Each is approached in a
simple Q & A format, and most topics will branch off into
related areas of interest.


WWW Site #3: Bandura, A. (2003, August 19). Information on Self-
Efficacy. Retrieved August 19, 2003, from:

http://www.emory.edu/EDUCATION/mfp/efficacy.html

Self-efficacy is expectations that focus on beliefs about their
capabilities to organize and execute the behaviors required to
achieve the outcome. Belief in our own capacity is paramount.
Our self-concept and the nature of the self, in Bandura's
theory, play a role in goal setting. Optimism and hope tend to
encourage health. Pessimists had twice as many infectious
illnesses and had an equal number of visits to their doctors.
Optimists survive cancer longer than pessimists. The skepticism
of mainstream scientists has been against the idea that
pessimism could advance the progression of cancer. Rats
implanted with tumors and previously given helplessness training
had a lower rejection rate than rats implanted with tumors and
previously not given helplessness training. This effect should
be even more dramatic in humans. Optimism encourages health
through improved immune response and awareness that better
health-promoting behaviors is good for body and soul. Optimists
do not rationalize setbacks, failures, and adversity as personal
attacks. Alcohol to excess, smoking nicotine, and some drug-
taking are indicators of a negative approach to life. Self-
efficacy prepares us for success. It influences the choices we
make, the effort we put forth, how long we persist in the face
of obstacles, & how we feel
about it.

Resource Type Selected: Article____Book_____Magazine____
Other___X___(web site)


Source Citation: Jaffe, J. (2000). Frontline: drug wars:
Interviews: Dr. Jerome Jaffe. Retrieved August 19, 2003, from:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/drugs/interviews/jaffe.html


Why was this source selected (importance or value/interest to
you)? The hypocrisy of the establishment in condoning alcoholism
was self-evident in Vietnam in the 1960s and 1970s. I witnessed
punishment as the tool of choice and little done to educate and
rehabilitate.

Brief summary of source: Interview: (Q) What happened when you
first went to the Pentagon to talk about heroin use amongst the
troops in Vietnam? (A) I told the assembled generals and the
colonels that they needed a program of testing, so that people
who were actively addicted to heroin would not be just put on
the airplane and sent back and discharged, but would be treated
in Vietnam. The news media was saying that maybe fifteen or
twenty percent of the servicemen in Vietnam were addicted to
heroin. There were suggestions in Congress for civilly
committing all of these people. The idea of 150 untreated heroin
addicts trained in combat, coming in every day, was not one that
made people feel comfortable. Our plan was, "We'll test people
when they leave. Those people who haven't used heroin will get
on the plane, and those people who have will be our guests in
Vietnam for a little longer, while we make sure they've had at
least some treatment." (Q) To the military, this was basically
mollycoddling. This was being soft on the addicts. Under the
Code of Military Justice then, if you were found using heroin,
it was a court-martial offense. So in order to institute a
program of universal testing, you had to change that. The
president simply ordered the change in the Code of Military
Justice. If you tested positive, it was no longer a court-
martial offense. Later, we were able to reverse some of the bad
conduct and dishonorable discharges that people had received
simply as a result of having used drugs. This wasn't to
encourage drug use, but there was no point in destroying
peoples' lives for that kind of offense. To get a program like
that up and running within two-and-a-half weeks, in retrospect,
was quite unbelievable. The logistics were tremendous. They
built detoxification facilities in Vietnam. They built special
places where you could collect the urine, and they did it all in
a couple of weeks. The new development of urine testing made it
feasible to test the roughly 1,000 people who were leaving
Vietnam every day. Testing had an immediate effect. As people
learned that heroin use was no longer something that could not
be detected, the tendency to use it dropped. The word got out
very quickly that there is no way to leave this place if you're
using heroin. And so, the soldiers would stop. The only people
who would show up as positive at the point of departure would be
those people who were really addicted, who couldn't stop. There
were also people who had been so isolated from the others, and
who didn't hear about the testing, but I have a feeling they
were exceedingly few. What that demonstrated was that even
though heroin remained available and cheap, that sort of
intervention could still reduce the extent of heroin use. We
found that, of those people who were addicted in Vietnam, there
was only a five-percent relapse rate over the first year after
returning home. I think, at most, there might have been a ten-
to-fifteen percent relapse over three years. This was totally
counter to everything everybody had expected, at least in the
beginning. (Q) Was your primary mission to deal with heroin? (A)
Heroin was the serious drug problem at the time. In 1971, 1972,
there was very little cocaine use. It might have been on the
distant radar screen, but there was almost nobody seeking
treatment. Marijuana was also a problem in terms of drug use,
but there was virtually
nobody seeking treatment.


Implications of this information for Humanistic Psychology: The
establishment continues to focus on incarcerating hundreds of
thousands of drug users, even the casual marijuana smoker. A
'War on Drugs' benefits a huge infrastructure of prisons, larger
police forces, more lawyers, and the myriad of support services
(e.g., food, education, and health).

Presentation Strategy: To inform my peers that the acceptance of
alternate lifestyles does not lead to an always harmonious
society. Unlike alcohol users, drug users tend to outgrow their
need for drug depression and stimulation except for the
addictive personalities.

Evaluation: on time____appropriate topic____substantive____
summary____oral____








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   Oct > Oct 25

                       Re: Gordon Cooper - Scheldroup

From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 12:35:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 07:03:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Scheldroup


>From: Jim Oberg <joberg.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 18:46:04 -0500
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 20:37:20 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Scheldroup

>>And... anyone out there has a copy of the Gordo film saucer
>>landing at Edwards AFB back in 1957, can you kindly send the
>>original or copy to me so I can let the world take a peak at it?

>If you read my report at:

>http://www.zip.com.au/~psmith/cooper.html

>you will see I identify the report as case 4715.

>I ordered my own copy of the report and the film images from the
>National Archives in college Park, Maryland - and got it.

>Have you tried that, or is there some reason you won't?


Thank you for the article Jim, and I did read it.

"THE SECOND HUNT"

"Bittick estimated that the object lay about a mile away when
they got off the first shot, though when first seen he put it at
no more than 500 yards off."

"dome on top, and had square holes or panels around the dome."
"Gettys thought that the holes were circular, not square."

"Gettys -- who still does not believe the '"weather balloon"
explanation -- was there; Cooper, contrary to legend, played no
role at all."


Cooper was their?... ever hear Cooper say he was their, I
recall him saying "I saw a film"?

Bittick and Gettys see small holes a mile away, couldn't tell if
it was a weather balloon?

Bittick know this was a weather balloon? What about Bittick?
did he tell McDonald it was a weather balloon?

How many weather balloons you think these two guys see before
Jim, do them even know what one looks like?. <g>

"Air Force said it had been a weather balloon (as the witnesses
had been told the very day of their sighting) and had the
evidence to prove it."

Major Col. thinks its best we try out the new shiny weather
balloon today... Jim need a camera?


John








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             Re: Research Shows How False Memories Are Formed -

From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 14:58:07 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 07:05:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Research Shows How False Memories Are Formed -


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 16:28:33 +0100
>Subject: Re: Research Shows How False Memories Are Formed

>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 17:03:35 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Research Shows How False Memories Are Formed

<snip>

>"The new findings directly showed that different brain areas are
>critical for accurate memories for visual objects than for false
>remembering - for forming a memory for an imagined object that
>is later remembered as a perceived object. The neuroanatomical
>evidence furthermore sheds light on the mental mechanisms
>responsible for forming accurate memories versus false
>memories."

I've noticed that the more emotionally charged and event is the
more accurate it is. Often details that aren't really relevant
are harder to recollect. The mind then fills in the gap, via
imagination so a more or less linear and rational scenario
appears in the mind/intellect. In a sense, we create, or
recreate the past from the present. The more distant the past,
the harder it is to be accurate, due to each time you remember,
you have a chance of not recieving all the data from the
subconscious mind, and having the imagination fill in the gaps.
There's a lot more to say on this, whole books can be written on
the subject and more.

There is of course a more metaphysical way of looking at this.
It calls forth the many worlds theory. That is that there are
probable pasts, that we pull from in the present. It is from the
belief that time is linear and that there is but one universe
that we all share that recollections can be disputed. Eistein's
theories indicate that my time, isn't another's time. Time and
space are linked (space-time) therefore if time is relative to
the observer, so must be space. *Its like we all have chests
boards, and we play together on generally agreed upon rules. We
play over the phone, and in different parts of the world. Our
space and time is different (time-zones). Those that don't play
and postion their chess pieces in the accepted order, are
considered mistaken, or crazy.* Sorry if this seems kooky, but
we are all use to dealing with kooky matters, so I didn't think
it would hurt. Hope I made sense.


*The analogy came from Norman Firedman's, Bridging Science And
Spirit








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   Oct > Oct 25

                                 Link Pages

From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 14:32:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 07:08:41 -0400
Subject: Link Pages


While we are creating our AION.INFO page, I've added most of the
web-links sent to us from our UFO UpDates request to several of our
sites, and all of them at:

http://fortnightly.ws

Fortnightly is read by our local media people (and some far-
flung media folks) and also various governmental agencies, since
the site has, in the past, been used to needle bureaucrats.

I've also included links to the WANE-TV UFO video/story; the GSA
list of (some) Blue Book films, stills, and audio tapes; our
attempt to get Edward U. Condon removed from the 1968 Colorado
UFO study; plus the information from a DOD staffer in the 70s
who told us that the VIllas-Boas episode was CIA induced.

(We have room for more links, if any of you are interested.)


Rich Reynolds
Fort Wayne MediaWatch








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               Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings? - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 16:37:03 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 07:10:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings? - White


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 02:35:33 EDT
>Subject: Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings?

<snip>

>Thanks Eleanor White, but I said 'changelings' not 'chanelling'.


I saw that later. Artificially induced dyslexia is one of the
catalogue of effects our "friends" hit us with. This is a
classic example of how they destroy your ability to hold an
information based job.


Eleanor White








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                     CCRN News: Formation Reports #15-20

From: Paul Anderson <paulanderson.nul>
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 14:18:30 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 07:12:04 -0400
Subject: CCRN News: Formation Reports #15-20


CCCRN NEWS
E-News from the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

October 18, 2004

http://www.cccrn.ca

_____________________________


FORMATION REPORTS #15-20 - BRITISH COLUMBIA,
SASKATCHEWAN AND ONTARIO

A late-season rash of six more formations, with preliminary
reports, plus an update on the previous cattle corn circle at
Noyan, Quebec...



Waterloo, Ontario

Dumbbell in cattle corn (8-9 feet tall), approximately 65 metres
(215 feet) long. Found October 17 by a couple looking for a lost
greyhound dog. Near location of the two previous Breslau
formations. Most stalks bent at the ground, often with roots
exposed, others bent and broken as high as between first and
second nodes. Both circles in formation have clockwise lay, with
additional multi-directional lay in parts of larger circle. A
few isolated single standing stalks. In close proximity to a
hydroelectric station and transformers. Initial ground photos
are posted on the web site. Investigation in progress by CCCRN
Ontario. This is the twentieth reported formation for 2004.


Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan

Partial ring in wheat, approximately 7.6 metres (25 feet)
diameter. Found October 7 by farmer while harvesting. In
deteriorated condition, may be several weeks old. Stalks bent
about 8 inches above the ground. Photos and diagrams coming
soon. Investigation in progress by CCCRN Saskatchewan. This is
the nineteenth reported formation for 2004.


Assiniboia, Saskatchewan

Eight circles in wheat, ranging from approximately 3 metres (10
feet) to 16 metres (53 feet) diameter. Found October 6 by farmer
while harvesting. Four circles with clockwise lay and four
counterclockwise. Photos and diagrams coming soon. Investigation
in progress by CCCRN Saskatchewan. This is the eighteenth
reported formation for 2004.


Chilliwack, British Columbia

Long "T" and other separate small rectangular shapes in cattle
corn, estimated to be approximately 76 metres (250 feet) to 90
metres (300 feet) long, based on aerial photos. Found October 1
by Laurel Leaman-Konrad and Jo Slingerland (CCCRN British
Columbia) while flying over area searching for previously
rumoured "ankh" formation (not found). Not able to be
investigated on ground before field harvested. Two other odd
"pathways" cutting across two opposite corners of field. Initial
aerial photos are posted on the web site. Investigation in
progress by CCCRN British Columbia. This is the seventeenth
reported formation for 2004.


Breslau, Ontario #2

Circle in cattle corn (8-9 feet tall). Found late September by
farmer (exact date not known). Haphazard lay, with bent and
broken stalks, similar to first Breslau formation but about
twice as large (to be surveyed). Other stalks again "severed"
through nodes and blackened. Most cobs again eaten by raccoons
and deer and blackened. Approximately 0.4 kilometres (0.25
miles) from first formation, on opposite side of woodlot in an
adjacent field, and apparently in alignment with the woodlot and
first formation. Investigation in progress by CCCRN Ontario.
This is the sixteenth reported formation for 2004.

Addendum: according to a preliminary examination by CCCRN
scientific consultant Mervyn Erb (agricultural consultant), who
also visited the formation, while there is a lot of latter
damage from raccoons and deer opportunistically feeding on cobs
on the flattened plants (and dragging some stalks around in the
process), the initial flattening of plants in the formation
itself and node anomalies were not caused by animals, wind
storms / brittle snap, root worm, core borers, drought stress or
people, in his opinion. The blackening of broken stalks, severed
nodes and cobs is definitely from opportunistic fungus (a common
occurrence).


Breslau, Ontario

Oval in cattle corn (8-9 feet tall), approximately 23 metres (76
feet) long. Found late September by farmer (exact date not
known). On side of sandy knoll, generally oval in shape but more
roughly circular on lower side and "kidney-shaped" on higher
side. Haphazard lay, with bent and broken stalks lying on top of
each other in various directions, laying primarily uphill on the
lower side and downhill on the higher side. Some stalks bent or
broken at the base, others about 2-3 feet above the ground and
blackened. A few lines of unaffected single standing stalks.
Cavities / splits in some stalk nodes (similar to previous corn
formations in BC). Other stalks "severed" through nodes and also
blackened (similar to previous corn formations in BC). Most cobs
eaten by raccoons and deer and again also blackened. In close
proximity to power poles and a woodlot. Initial ground photos
are posted on the web site. Investigation in progress by CCCRN
Ontario. This is the fifteenth reported formation for 2004.

Addendum: according to a preliminary examination by CCCRN
scientific consultant Mervyn Erb (agricultural consultant), who
also visited the formation, while there is a lot of latter
damage from raccoons and deer opportunistically feeding on cobs
on the flattened plants (and dragging some stalks around in the
process), the initial flattening of plants in the formation
itself and node anomalies were not caused by animals, wind
storms / brittle snap, root worm, core borers, drought stress or
people, in his opinion. The blackening of broken stalks, severed
nodes and cobs is definitely from opportunistic fungus (a common
occurrence).


Update - Noyan, Quebec Corn Formation

The corn circle near Noyan, Quebec has been further examined by
Denyse Aita (CCCRN Quebec) and Nancy Talbott (BLT Research
Team). First found August 24 by farmer. In cattle corn (9-10
feet tall), approximately 27 metres (89 feet) diameter. Offset
centre. Plants flattened radially outward from centre to outside
edge, never seen before in a corn formation. Cavities / splits
in some stalk nodes. Additional photos and diagrams coming soon.

____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent
free to your e-mail

To subscribe or unsubscribe, send an e-mail with either
Subscribe CCCRN News or Unsubscribe CCCRN News in the subject
line to: cccrnnews.nul

c. CCCRN, 2004








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   Oct > Oct 25

                          Re: Gordon Cooper - Oberg

From: Jim Oberg <joberg.nul>
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 17:37:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 07:13:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Oberg


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 08:20:38 -0500
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg

>The reader concerned with the real history of this ufological
>brouhaha might want to visit the following URL for some more
>reasonable thinking on the subject...

>http://www.cohenufo.org/ocr.1a.html

>Posner is not the last word on JFK, folks, and James Oberg
>is far from the last word on Gordon Cooper. Special thanks to
>Jerry Cohen.

I have responded to Cohen's arguments at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UFORL/message/1778

but this is all a diversion from the primary question:

Has anybody ever ordered their own copy of 'the report that
Cooper says doesn't exist' from the Blue Book section of the
National Archives?

Does anybody intend to?


Jim Oberg








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             Re: Research Shows How False Memories Are Formed -

From: Peter Rogerson <peter.rogerson3.nul>
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 00:10:17 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 07:17:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Research Shows How False Memories Are Formed -


>From: Terry Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 08:41:23 -0700
>Subject: Re: Research Shows How False Memories Are Formed

>FALSE MEMORY SYNDROME

>Terry W. Colvin
>Western International University
>BEH 405 - Learning and Cognition
>Professor - Dr. Loyd Ray Ganey Jr.
>July 22, 2002

<snip>

Terry,

Thanks for that interesting list, which reminds us how
controversial recovered memory techniques are in non ufological
contexts.

Hypnotic regression and similar procedures don't just produce
tales of people being abducted through solid walls into
invisible ufos but also tales of abuse by Satanic cults for
which no independent evidence is ever forthcoming, tales of
being secretly used without conscious knowledge as CIA mules,
past life regressions and future life progressions.

Rather than assuming the literal truth of a variety of, to say
the least, massively implausible events, the simplest
explanation for all this is that these techniques really operate
by setting free the imagination and the story telling ability.

In all of these cases these stories are usually collaborative
efforts by the _experiencers_ and the investigators. The
building blocks of the stories may come from many different
sources, including actual anomalous personal experiences
particularly those connected with sleep phenomena, and may well
express both personal and collective needs and fears.


Peter Rogerson
A member of the Reality Based Community









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                          CI: Bioastronomy And SETI

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul>
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 23:10:45 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 07:18:33 -0400
Subject: CI: Bioastronomy And SETI


Cydonian Imperative
10-25-04

Europe leads space race to hunt down ET

"It is a view that astronomers would die for: a shimmering,
blue, alien world with oceans and continents and vegetation
changing colour with seasons. A vision like this, across the
galactic void, would be unambiguous proof of the existence of
extraterrestrial life."

Or so it seems. Something tells me we can count on NASA/JPL to
conjure all sorts of bogus scenarios that don't require organic
processes, if its decades-long dealings with probable life on
Mars are any indication. So I'm glad the Europeans are leading
this effort, which I predict will meet with spectacular success.

Viewed in a brighter light, JPL's refusal to acknowledge
evidence of life on Mars is very likely reflects a political
necessity to retain control of the Mars research budget. Since
it's doubtful we'll be sending probes to other star systems in
the near future, JPL has little or nothing to lose by conceding
the existence of extrasolar life (as opposed to life in our own
solar system).

As always, mainstream science is perfectly comfortable with the
idea of extraterrestrial life - but it demands that ET life
behave according to a set of carefully predetermined rules. For
example, radio-SETI presumes intelligent aliens exist, but its
elite takes conspicuous pains to distance them from us; contact,
if it occurs, will presumably come in the form of
electromagnetic transmissions - not something as potentially
disturbing as actual visitation or the
discovery of tangible artifacts.

For links/images, see:

http://cydonianimperative.blogspot.com

or

http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com/2004_10_01_posthumanblues_archive.html#109868
233865514420

-end-

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot.nul)

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com

New book: "After the Martian Apocalypse"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/074348293X








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             Betty Hill Remembered For Hospitality & Social Work

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 07:56:20 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 07:56:20 -0400
Subject: Betty Hill Remembered For Hospitality & Social Work




Source: The Union Leader - Manchester, New Hampshire

http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_showfast.html?article=3D45905

10-21-04


Betty Hill Remembered For Hospitality, Social Work
by
Peg Warner
Union Leader Correspondent

EXETER =97 Steve Garboski never knew Betty Hill.

But as someone who once worked with abused and neglected youth
at the St. Charles Children=92s Home in Rochester, he appreciated
that she had been a social worker.

The retiree, who divides his time between Strafford and Los
Angeles, happened to be in New Hampshire for his father=92s
memorial service and learned that Hill had died. He got on his
motorcycle and enjoyed the fall foliage, then stopped for her
calling hours at Brewitt Funeral Home.

"It=92s a beautiful day for a ride, and she was such a good
citizen," he said. "I would have loved to have met her."

Hill, who died of cancer at age 85 Sunday at her Portsmouth
home, will likely best be remembered for the account she and her
second husband, Barney Hill, gave of being abducted by aliens
while traveling through the White Mountains in 1961.

That report led to a book and a movie and, for better or worse,
more reports of alien abductions and the UFO movement, which
Hill herself would disavow in a 1996 interview as having
attracted "too many kooks."

But she was more than that experience, as visitors to the
funeral home recalled yesterday.

Family members at the funeral home yesterday did not want to be
interviewed, but Muriel Kohloff, 89, who met Hill through Hill=92s
sister, remembered her more for her annual New Year=92s
breakfasts. Those continued until about 10 years ago, according
to Kohloff=92s daughter, Nancy Bilodeau.

Kohloff also recalled that the event that made her famous was
not central to her day-to-day life, although she wouldn=92t shy
away from the topic when it came up.

"She was a wonderful person," said Kohloff.

Hill, who was born in Newton and raised in Kingston, will be
buried privately at Greenwood Cemetery in Kingston after a
funeral this morning at the funeral home.


[UFO UpDates thanks http://www.anomalist.com & Richard Hendricks
 for the lead]







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   Oct > Oct 25

                        Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 07:12:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:37:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg


>From: Jim Oberg <joberg.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 17:37:44 -0500
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 08:20:38 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg

>>The reader concerned with the real history of this ufological
>>brouhaha might want to visit the following URL for some more
>>reasonable thinking on the subject...

>>http://www.cohenufo.org/ocr.1a.html

>>Posner is not the last word on JFK, folks, and James Oberg
>>is far from the last word on Gordon Cooper. Special thanks to
>>Jerry Cohen.

>I have responded to Cohen's arguments at:

>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UFORL/message/1778

>but this is all a diversion from the primary question:

>Has anybody ever ordered their own copy of 'the report that
>Cooper says doesn't exist' from the Blue Book section of the
>National Archives?

>Does anybody intend to?


One man's diversion is another man's insistence on relevance,
Mr. Oberg, and your obfuscatory (on balance) reply to Mr. Cohen
at the above URL is a reply made in an attempt to have the last
word in a venue where you just couldn't compete. It is hardly a
rebuttal, Sir. It is a dancing pirouette of fatuous meme
parsing, irrelevant point taking, and does not detract from
Cohen's assertions one sliced smidgeon of a solitary scintilla.
I suspect close study would demonstrate that it is _entirely_
fallacious, probably contrived, and certainly assumptive.

One only has to review the last paragraph of your leaping
fandango to see that, at the denouement? You got nothin'!

"What still puzzles me, though, is that after all of Cohen's
defiant defense of all of Cooper's statements, on another part
of his website he waffles: "I believe the probability that ex-
astronaut Gordon Cooper is telling the truth regarding, at the
minimum his early sightings, is extremely high." What does he
mean by "at the minimum" - that Cooper may not be telling the
truth about his later sightings? The inquiry continues.."

Only a partisan hack would squeeze the intimation of inadequacy
from it that you imply here. Read just a little from Cohen to
discover that your closing point lands on empty air, like the
points in the rest of the piece. A more constant observer than
the distracted audience you otherwise facilitate (and mislead)
can see that you are literally flailing all the way through it.
Let the reader be the judge. It's a little like a debate between
GWB and JFK. Only an ideologue perceives "shrubbers" as a winner
on _any_ level, in three debates. The truly rational must, of
needs, vote the Cohen ticket.

Perhaps you and Mr. Cohen could debate the issue on SDI some
evening?


alienview.nul -:=A6:-
  www.AlienView.net









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   Oct > Oct 25

             Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings? - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <reso9b90.nul>
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:55:48 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:40:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings? - Goldstein


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 16:37:03 -0400
>Subject: Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings?

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 02:35:33 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings?

><snip>

>>Thanks Eleanor White, but I said 'changelings' not 'chanelling'.

>I saw that later. Artificially induced dyslexia is one of the
>catalogue of effects our "friends" hit us with. This is a
>classic example of how they destroy your ability to hold an
>information based job.


Eleanor,

I rspectfully feel you have not been taking your medicine lately
<g>. Did you understand anything from the recent posts by Terry
Colvin?

In one of your recent posts you had a link to your website where
you described how you became enamored with the "US patriot
militia movement" and believed their rampant paranoia about the
US government, the UN, etc. Timothy McVeigh felt just the same
way.

The Southern Poverty Law Center has done very honorable work
since the 1960s. They have received great honor for their work.

You still have failed to provide any factual evidence of the US
government participating in any attempts at mind control since
the Church Committee hearing in the 1970s.


Josh Goldstein








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   Oct > Oct 25

             Re: Research Shows How False Memories Are Formed -

From: Cathy Reason <CathyM.nul>
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 14:07:52 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:43:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Research Shows How False Memories Are Formed -


>From: Peter Rogerson <peter.rogerson3.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 00:10:17 +0100 (BST)
>Subject: Re: Research Shows How False Memories Are Formed

>Rather than assuming the literal truth of a variety of, to say
>the least, massively implausible events, the simplest
>explanation for all this is that these techniques really operate
>by setting free the imagination and the story telling ability.

I think we need to unpack this a little.

There are two, more or less incompatible approaches to studying
perception and memory, which are usually referred to as the
constructivist and the Gibsonian. The latter assumes that
perception is pretty much determined by the stimulus array in
the external world, the former regards perception as a kind of
narrative or story which is constructed largely independently of
the external world.

Most of what you'll find in the popular press about false and
recovered memory derives from work by cognitive psychologists,
who are overwhelmingly constructivists. Cognitive psychology has
its origins in the artificial intelligence research of the
1960s, although constructivism itself is considerably older. So,
cognitive psychology is really derived from computer science.

The Gibsonian approach is more recent, and is much more
evolutionary and biological in its orientation, and is
correspondingly far more influential in neuroscience and
biology.

It's the constructivist approach which tells us that memory is
"fragile and malleable". The Gibsonian approach tells us that
this apparent malleability and fragility is most likely to be an
experimental artifact. So, how we interpret the evidence for
false memory very much depends on which approach we adopt -
which in turn depends on whether we favor computer science or
biology.

Unfortunately, psychologists - especially in the US - are often
not educated about the Gibsonian approach, with the result that
many psychologists have never even heard of it and don't realize
the extent to which psychology is based on constructivist
assumptions. Which brings us to the following example:

>In all of these cases these stories are usually collaborative
>efforts by the _experiencers_ and the investigators. The
>building blocks of the stories may come from many different
>sources, including actual anomalous personal experiences
>particularly those connected with sleep phenomena, and may well
>express both personal and collective needs and fears.

This works fine as a constructivist narrative, but that's all it
is - a narrative. It depends critically on the asumption that
perception and memory are processes of construction which
operate largely independently of the real world - which makes
the following sign-off:

>Peter Rogerson
>A member of the Reality Based Community

more than a little ironic ;-)


Cathy

[Catherine Reason]









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               Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings? - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:37:32 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 07:38:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings? - King


>From: Josh Goldstein <reso9b90.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:55:48 +0000
>Subject: Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings?

>>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 16:37:03 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings?

>>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 02:35:33 EDT
>>>Subject: Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings?

>><snip>

>>>Thanks Eleanor White, but I said 'changelings' not 'chanelling'.

>>I saw that later. Artificially induced dyslexia is one of the
>>catalogue of effects our "friends" hit us with. This is a
>>classic example of how they destroy your ability to hold an
>>information based job.

>I rspectfully feel you have not been taking your medicine lately
><g>. Did you understand anything from the recent posts by Terry
>Colvin?

>In one of your recent posts you had a link to your website where
>you described how you became enamored with the "US patriot
>militia movement" and believed their rampant paranoia about the
>US government, the UN, etc. Timothy McVeigh felt just the same
>way.

>The Southern Poverty Law Center has done very honorable work
>since the 1960s. They have received great honor for their work.

>You still have failed to provide any factual evidence of the US
>government participating in any attempts at mind control since
>the Church Committee hearing in the 1970s.

Hi Josh, and Eleanor,

To my mind, and in my experience, the best mind control agent
yet employed by mankind is fear. Fear allows us to give up our
rights in the name of security, mistrust our neighbors, place
blind faith in some dubious "authority", and kill what we don't
understand. Fear breeds paranoia, and at this particular time in
history, paranoia seems to be what is desired by the authority.
Every day we are reminded of the unseen enemy lurking perhaps in
our own midst. We are being conditioned. Remember the "commie
under every bed"? Meet the new boss... same as the old boss.
Welcome to the Monkey House.

Whether Eleanor's belief is the truth or a paranoid delusion,
the result is the same. Asking her to produce evidence to back
her fears is no different than asking a Christian to produce
evidence to back her faith, except that there are more rational
reasons to fear than to have faith.


Regards,

Kyle








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                       Re: Gordon Cooper - Scheldroup

From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:24:48 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 07:40:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Scheldroup


>From: Jim Oberg <joberg.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 17:37:44 -0500
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 08:20:38 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg

>Has anybody ever ordered their own copy of 'the report that
>Cooper says doesn't exist' from the Blue Book section of the
>National Archives?

>Does anybody intend to?


Jim, I found something rather interesting that I think you
should look at:

http://www.edwards.af.mil/moments/docs_html/50s-toc.html

See anything unusual?

Not counting 1950 we seem to be missing one year, care to guess
which one? All the sudden by golly! Look at the first story to
hit 1958, just a coincidence or was Cooper right all along <G>


John






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                 Continuing Encounters In Frederic Wisconsin

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO Research <hbccufo.nul>
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:52:26 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 07:44:30 -0400
Subject: Continuing Encounters In Frederic Wisconsin


Frederic, Wisconsin Continuing UFO Encounters

Date: Events started at the end of July,
      beginning of August 2004
Time: Events started roughly at 10:00 p.m.

HBCC UFO Research was contacted by way of telephone late one
evening. A fellow by the name of Shawn, asked me for some help
as he and his family were going through a number of unusual
experiences, seeing lights/objects which were happening around
them on a non stop basis. Shawn was extremely worried for his
families safety as any parent would be. His story is below.

Shawn said he and his family have property approximately 30
miles north of Frederic in Wisconsin. But this first incident
took place before they had moved into their new home. One night
Shawn decided to drive to the local bar to pick up some pizzas
for him and his family for dinner. When returning home on the
one and a half mile drive he noticed a strange light which was
bouncing and zipping across the sky. Shawn knowing this was
really unusual, pulled his vehicle off the road and into a
gravel pit, turned off the vehicles headlights and sat and
watched the light for a short while. After watching this weird
light maneuvering all over the sky he decided to drive home
quickly to tell his wife, also thinking if the light was still
visible he and his wife might get some video footage of it. The
couple grabbed the video camera and headed back outside, and
sure enough the light was still moving about the night sky. They
managed to film it, but later on after reviewing the video on
the TV, Shawn told me the light shows up as only a speck. He
mentioned that what he used to shoot the footage wasn't
professional equipment so the object wasn't showing up very good
at all. Plus capturing night footage isn't that easy to begin
with.

They recently had purchased the home and it wasn't long after
that, that strange lights started showing up in the skies. It
was only approximately three weeks after the family settled into
their home when Shawn was out on the deck and he again saw this
strange light. He said it was primarily white and then would
flicker a range of colors, red, blue and green and running all
around the white light. He says it would zig zag through the sky
and come to a dead stop. He also mentioned that at one point he
grabbed a strong flashlight and blinked it off and on in the
direction of the weird light. All of a sudden the light flashed
back, or Shawn said the light seemed to respond to him actions.
He thought, no way, this wasn't happening. He was totally
surprised and went back into the home and asked for his
daughter's laser pointer. He brought the pointer outside and
shone it across the road to where he could see the beam clearly
on the trees. Shawn then moved the laser up the trees and just
above where the strange light was sitting in the sky. When the
red laser light hit the object Shawn tuned the pointer off and
on a couple of times until he saw a reaction from the mysterious
light which immediately turned a solid red and flickered off and
on just like what Shawn was doing with the lazar pointer.

After seeing this, he told his family that it was time to head
into the house as this was getting just a little freaky for
them. I asked him what distance he felt the light was away from
his location at the time he pointed the laser at it. His best
"guess" would have put the light at maybe four miles away.
Seeing the light was so far from him Shawn was asked if he
believed it had actually responded to the laser. He said yes, as
later that night the object came down over the property.

While going about their business inside the home Shawn and his
wife noticed that something orange was illuminating through
their picture window at the east side of the house. Normally it
is pitch black and you can't see anything. Shawn went to the
window to see what was causing the whole area outside to be lit
up. Just outside was a large circular orange ball of light. He
described it as being similar to a ball of Jell-O that someone
may have punched, as the object was wiggling and oscillating. He
said at arms length the object would have been roughly the size
of a bowling ball.

He gave a description of the area where the orange ball of light
was sitting. He said they live on a pine plantation and his home
sits in a notched out area amongst the pine trees. On the east
side from his home are six or seven rows of pine trees which
have been spaced to allow for better growth. On the back side of
the rows of trees there is a pond. This is where the circular
orange object was sitting stationary, just over top of the pond,
behind the rows of pine trees. He and his wife were looking
through the spaced trees to see the object, it was that low.
Another point Shawn made was since it was a plantation the lower
branches of the trees are limbed which exposes the trunks and
this gave them a great view of the object. He said the "thing"
was really close, maybe 500 to 600 feet away at the most. The
couple were observing this at approximately 11:00 p.m./midnight.
The entire area had been lit up due to the object's brightness.
Shawn grabbed his video camera and his wife grabbed her digital
camera and started taking photos. With the object still
stationary over the pond Shawn looked through the view finder on
the camera, but saw only blackness. He looked up with his naked
eye and the object was still sitting there shining brightly.

His wife took approximately twelve photos of the orange object
that night but later after looking at the photos, nothing showed
up. It was almost as if her camera stopped functioning properly.

Shawn said all of a sudden he felt a large jolt of electricity
surge through his body which almost knocked him backwards to the
ground. Both him and his wife panicked after this took place. He
asked his wife did she feel that, she said no. At the same time
his wife asked him "did you see that?"  Shawn said what??????
She replied ... "that thing shot a red light at you."  He'd
missed seeing the shot of red light because he was busy trying
to look through the view finder of the camera.

The frightened couple ran back into the house. As Shawn and his
wife made their way upstairs and being visibly shaken up their
daughter woke and saw her distressed parents and she got upset.
They finally got their daughter settled down and back in bed and
to sleep. They were still thinking about what had happened and
Shawn decided to have a peep out the window. There, again......
was the same light. While he was watching it Shawn said it
looked as if someone was striking metal with an arc welder as
the flashes from the object were extremely bright. Also beams of
bluish colored light were shooting out from the object and
across the families yard. As they watched, looking off to the
side of the home they observed what appeared to be at least ten
of these similar but smaller lights sitting in the air. Shawn
said at this point the wind blew up and literally shook the
house and for a while they thought they were going to lose their
home due to the strength of the wind. When they saw the ten lit
up objects they had no idea if they were all separate objects or
one large craft with the different lights on it. It was just to
hard to determine Shawn said and he was getting more concerned
and scared by the minute.

Shawn said the beams of light were so intense that they lit up
the valley. It was approximately 4:00 - 4:30 a.m. when this was
taking place and he said three cars drove by on the highway past
their home and under the beams of light which were lighting up
the entire area. None of the people driving the vehicles seemed
to notice what was happening because Shawn said not a brake
light came on, nor did the cars slow down even a little. He was
concerned and mentioned to his wife, "don't these people see
what is going on". The whole episode with the wind, lights and
beams lasted for approximately three hours off and on during
this time. It became so bad that Shawn, his wife and daughter
covered the window in their daughters bedroom and huddled in the
corner because they were so scared to look outside.

Eventually the wind died down and Shawn felt he just had to have
a look out the window and he noticed all of the lights had
disappeared. It looked as if whatever was out there had finally
gone. Feeling a little relieved the couple sat in their
daughter's room discussing and wondering about what had just
taken place. Both weren't able to sleep due to their nerves
still rattled, and not wanting to leave their daughter's side
they remained in her room.

It was finally silence around them and after about forty five
minutes Shawn decided to take one last look out the window. His
wife said "please don't". He slowly pulled the curtain aside and
saw an object in the shape of a half circle, filled with tiny
lights heading off towards the southeast. The family was
thankful it was all over and finally they could get some sleep.

On another evening one of Shawn's friends came over for a visit,
this friend of his has been witness to a number of unusual
happenings around this families home. But on this one particular
night Shawn was inside talking with his friend's girlfriend and
his buddy was outside watching the sky. Finally his friend
walked into the house and said you have to come outside and see
what is happening in the sky. When they all went outside and to
the west of the home they could see something strange which had
a red ball of light at the top and on the bottom. The body of
the object was white which extended out leaving the red balls of
light sitting in the middle of whatever it was. Shawn's friend
told him to look towards the back of the object and a bit in the
distance. Looking through a good pair of binoculars Shawn
looked, and could see a red colored pyramid shaped object and
the object they first observed seemed to be towing the pyramid
behind it. As the objects moved towards the east they dropped
down behind the tree tops and they all could hear what sounded
like a jet aircraft for a brief period of time. Whatever these
things were, both had been silent the whole time they were
traveling across the sky.

Shawn's wife Robin added her comments to what has been going on
at and around their home over the weeks that have gone by. She
said they have gone through the process of shock and being
overwhelmed to acceptance and as she told us, they will never be
able to understand what has been going on. Robin said it is just
really bizarre !

She added that being a Christian lady, the unexplainable chain
of events has really rocked her world. You think all that you
have learned, been taught and believed and yet we don't know
what is real anymore. Robin said this was the hardest part for
her, not knowing.

Shawn also said that he asked a few people around the area if
they have ever witnessed any strange lights and all of the
people he spoke to said no and walked away. One person did say
he had seen some unusual lights, but went on to say that he
doesn't even bother looking up anymore. Shawn didn't want to
pursue it any further as he did not want to be known as the
crack pot in the community as he was the new fellow in town.

HBCC UFO Research Note: There is a lot more to this experience
than I have written here. So much in fact that a fellow
investigator by the name of Sam Maranto and colleagues
(Illinois, MUFON) will be driving to the families home and
spending a couple of days with them to carry out interviews and
an investigation. We all are hoping that they will be fortunate
enough to get a glimpse of what the family is witnessing. I am
sure once they finish up their work with the family they will
have a full report.

My deepest thanks to Shawn and his family for coming forward to
tell their story and sharing it all with us.


Brian Vike
Director HBCC UFO Research
Home - Phone 250 845 2189
email: hbccufo.nul
Website: http://www.hbccufo.com
Redirect: http://www.canadianufo.com
HBCC UFO RESEARCH
Newsletter At:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HBCC_UFO_Newsletter/







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   Oct > Oct 26

                   Re: Rutan Photographs UFOs? - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 15:35:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 07:48:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Rutan Photographs UFOs? - Lehmberg


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 12:35:26 -0500
>Subject: Rutan Photographs UFOs?

>Rutan Photographs UFOs as he reaches for the "X" prize?

>Watch the whole flight and use the "Angle Selection" dropdown
>menu to change camera angles. View inside and outside the craft
>as the mission is being flown. The video provided by the X
>Prize Foundation, at the following URL:

>http://channelevents.aol.com/research/xprize/index.adp

>At 4 minutes 2 seconds into the film, at or near apogee, a
>white dot appears at the top of the cabin and transitions slowly
>ight to left. Relative movement indicates that the object is
>tationary; however, at 4 minutes 16 seconds there appears
>nother white dot, aft of the rocket motor, that moves in a
>uick streak top right to bottom left - blink and you miss it.

>it is a star, why are we seeing only one? Is it Venus or
>upiter? What was the fast moving object? Not a hint of any
>other stars in the black airless sky. Birds? No. Swamp gas?
>No. Bolides and rocket boosters? Maybe.

>Anybody have any ideas?


Wow! Subsequent watching proves that there is a lot more
activity aft of Rutan's space craft after it feathers the wing
and begins its re-entry. These streaking objects don't appear to
be coming from the rocket motor, which has been shut down for
some minutes... damn strange!

alienview.nul  -:=A6:-
   www.AlienView.net







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                         Re: Gordon Cooper - LeClair

From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 17:09:22 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 07:51:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - LeClair


Anyone see the "Sightings" interview with Cooper? He discusses
the event in some detail. I no longer have it on tape and won't
say what's on it due to False Memory Syndrome!! I will just
leave it at that. The weather balloon doesn't fit if you watch the
interview.








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                   The Black Vault Site Update - 10-25-04

From: John Greenewald <john.nul>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 00:35:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 07:57:07 -0400
Subject: The Black Vault Site Update - 10-25-04


The Black Vault
Site Update for October 25, 2004

NORTHRIDGE (BlackVault) - October 25, 2004 - Throughout the past
couple of months, The Black Vault has made monumental
achievements in it's never ending trek to be #1. It's statistics
are further proving this point, with last month being the second
biggest month this year, and this month (October) set to break
that record!

To give you all an update on myself, for the past 2 months I
have been working at Weller/Grossman Productions on three
documentaries set to air on The History Channel. These will
start airing at the end of November, which I will send out a
later, more accurate, air date so you can all watch them!

The work has been quite an exciting experience for me! This is
not The Black Vault Television which many of you have asked
about, but entering this business only takes me one step closer
to achieving that goal. I want you all to know I have never lost
sight of that, and have slowly been taking steps closer to
making this happen.

The Black Vault Radio - I have received many letters regarding
The Black Vault Radio and the weekly show. I am very happy to
say that even though we will not be heard on CRN anymore, The
Black Vault Radio will start recording again this week, and
start airing new shows online, and more networks to syndicate
will come on board soon (still working on those details.) I have
been fortunate enough to obtain a sponsorship to build my own
radio studio at home, where I can record and broadcast from
home.

Many remember The Black Vault Radio Network, well that too will
be coming back to reality! The Black Vault Radio Network will,
in time, start broadcasting on-demand radio shows for all to
listen. Again, this is a work in progress, and the details will
be sent out once they are finalized.

I will say this - The Black Vault Radio Network will be a hit!
We have some radio hosts coming on board that will deliver
quality broadcasts that will become the best in the business.
Keep a watch out for this fantastic new feature...

I appreciate all of your continued support. You have made The
Black Vault one of the heaviest hit sites on the internet, and
every day more and more people flock to The Black Vault. Keep
spreading the word - and more information to come soon!









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   Oct > Oct 26

                   Mexican Air Force FLIR Lights Altitude

From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 15:08:01 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 07:59:44 -0400
Subject: Mexican Air Force FLIR Lights Altitude


Hello all,

There is still a controversy about how and why the FLIR's video
lights filmed by Mexican Air Force C26A crew on march 05, 2004
seem to be at the same altitude of 11,500 ft level flight.

Objects located over the earth's surface at a great distance and
closer to the horizon are seen at or almost the same level or
altitude.

Here is an explanation for people with little or none, low
flying experience, or aeronautical knowledge.

http://www.alcione.org/ARTIF_HORIZON/


Regards,

Capt. Alejandro Franz








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               National UFO Conference - John Greenewald M.C.

From: John Greenewald <john.nul>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 01:45:43 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 08:28:46 -0400
Subject: National UFO Conference - John Greenewald M.C.


John Greenewald to be Master of Ceremonies at NUFOC 2004

NORTHRIDGE (BlackVault) - October 25, 2004 - The Black Vault is
very proud to announce that creator John Greenewald, Jr. will be
the Master of Ceremonies at this years National UFO Conference
(NUFOC) event in Hollywood, California.

Held this Halloween weekend at the Renaissance hotel, Greenewald
will be joined by some of the top speakers from around the globe
- including Richard Dolan, Dr. Robert Wood, Stephen Bassett,
Peter Davenport, Leslie Kean and many more.

The event will be nothing short of extraordinary. At the beautiful
grounds of the Renaissance Hotel, right next to the popular
destination "Hollywood and Highland," the speakers will be sharing
their research to the public.

"This is one of the most amazing locations for a UFO conference
to be held," said Greenewald. "The rooms are unbelievable, the
conference halls are stunning and the atmosphere will only add
to making this one of the most attended conferences each year!"

For more information, visit NUFOC's website at:

http://www.nufoc.org {http://www.nufoc.org}

Or to register by phone call 858-625-0399.

This is a must see event!







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               Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings? - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 08:00:54 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 08:30:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings? - Boone


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:37:32 -0500
>Subject: Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings?

>>From: Josh Goldstein <reso9b90.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:55:48 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings?

>>>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 16:37:03 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings?

>>>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>>Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 02:35:33 EDT
>>>>Subject: Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings?

>>><snip>

>>>>Thanks Eleanor White, but I said 'changelings' not 'chanelling'.

>>>I saw that later. Artificially induced dyslexia is one of the
>>>catalogue of effects our "friends" hit us with. This is a
>>>classic example of how they destroy your ability to hold an
>>>information based job.

>>I rspectfully feel you have not been taking your medicine lately
>><g>. Did you understand anything from the recent posts by Terry
>>Colvin?

>>In one of your recent posts you had a link to your website where
>>you described how you became enamored with the "US patriot
>>militia movement" and believed their rampant paranoia about the
>>US government, the UN, etc. Timothy McVeigh felt just the same
>>way.

>>The Southern Poverty Law Center has done very honorable work
>>since the 1960s. They have received great honor for their work.

>>You still have failed to provide any factual evidence of the US
>>government participating in any attempts at mind control since
>>the Church Committee hearing in the 1970s.

>Hi Josh, and Eleanor,

>To my mind, and in my experience, the best mind control agent
>yet employed by mankind is fear. Fear allows us to give up our
>rights in the name of security, mistrust our neighbors, place
>blind faith in some dubious "authority", and kill what we don't
>understand. Fear breeds paranoia, and at this particular time in
>history, paranoia seems to be what is desired by the authority.
>Every day we are reminded of the unseen enemy lurking perhaps in
>our own midst. We are being conditioned. Remember the "commie
>under every bed"? Meet the new boss... same as the old boss.
>Welcome to the Monkey House.

>Whether Eleanor's belief is the truth or a paranoid delusion,
>the result is the same. Asking her to produce evidence to back
>her fears is no different than asking a Christian to produce
>evidence to back her faith, except that there are more rational
>reasons to fear than to have faith.


Yes, all well and good, but what's this got to do with
'changelings'? Referring to the 2nd definition listed below.

Main Entry: change=B7ling
Pronunciation: 'chAnj-li[ng]
Function: noun
Date: 1537
1 : archaic : TURNCOAT
2 : a child secretly exchanged for another in infancy
3 : archaic : IMBECILE
- changeling adjective

c. 2001 by Merriam-Webster, Incorporated
Merriam-Webster Privacy Policy







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   Oct > Oct 26

                               Fort Wayne UFOs

From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 08:36:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:40:43 -0400
Subject: Fort Wayne UFOs


After the recent 'flap' about the WANE-TV video showing a UFO -
see it at:

http://www.wildesociety.org

there have been other sightings - one last weekend - 10/23 -
reported by WANE-TV again, but attributed to a meteor shower
- which didn't meet the sighting descriptions.

That aside, a friend of mine, a co-owner of Fort Wayne Reader,
a weekly newspaper here - saw a strange object in the sky near
his workplace two weeks ago.

He viewed the object for 45 minutes or so, until it shot off. He
had fellow workers observe it with him.

Now this isn't an unsophisticated guy. He has some familiarity
with the UFO phenomenon and his paper did a piece on the topic a
few months ago.

I asked him if he'd write up his experience so I could share it
with UFO UpDates readers. He declined, saying he didn't want his
name attached to a UFO sighting... and this in 2004!

Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.


Rich Reynolds
Fort Wayne MediaWatch








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   Oct > Oct 27

                          Re: Gordon Cooper - Oberg

From: Jim Oberg <joberg.nul>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 08:44:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 07:13:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Oberg


>From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:24:48 -0500
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>From: Jim Oberg <joberg.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 17:37:44 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

<snip>

>>Has anybody ever ordered their own copy of 'the report that
>>Cooper says doesn't exist' from the Blue Book section of the
>>National Archives?

>>Does anybody intend to?

>Jim, I found something rather interesting that I think you
>should look at:

>http://www.edwards.af.mil/moments/docs_html/50s-toc.html

>See anything unusual?

>Not counting 1950 we seem to be missing one year, care to guess
>which one? All the sudden by golly! Look at the first story to
>hit 1958, just a coincidence or was Cooper right all along <G>


Have you asked the base history office if they concentrated on
certain boxes, or are you just stabbing in the dark for anything
that can look 'coincidental'?

Order the May '57 case file, and share your impressions of it.

If you like, I can put you in touch with the AF officer who was
the case officer, Hubert Davis.


Jim







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                          Re: Gordon Cooper - Oberg

From: Jim Oberg <joberg.nul>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:14:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 07:15:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Oberg


>From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 17:09:22 -0400
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - LeClair


>Anyone see the "Sightings" interview with Cooper? He discusses
>the event in some detail. I no longer have it on tape and won't
>say what's on it due to False Memory Syndrome!! I will just
>leave it at that. The weather balloon doesn't fit if you watch the
>interview.

Aaron, there's no dispute over the description Cooper repeatedly
gave in the 1990's. It's clearly an account of a mechanical
vehicle that touched the ground and then rose up into the sky.

One question I would have about such an account - if real,
presumably the vehicle left marks on the ground. Yet as far as I
know, Cooper did not walk over and look for them, nor does he
describe anyone else doing so.

The disconnect is between Cooper's narrative and the accounts of
others, particlarly Geddes, one of the photographers, and of
Davis, who wrote the report for the Blue Book file, and of James
McDonald, who presented the original incident to the 1968
congressional UFO hearings without mentioning either Cooper OR
any landing.

The disturbing aspect of the Cooper version is that he's on
record as making many other claims about his career that are
discordant with all other witnesses, such as:

1. He saved the space shuttle program from a fatal design flaw
by passing on a telepathic warning from space aliens.

2. His Gemini-5 capsule was pelted with meteorites and left with
its outer hull punctured in many places as if an ice-pick has
been driven into it (it's on exhibit at Space Center Houston and
there are no such injuries to it - nor do any 'space debris'
scientists have any recollection of such impacts).

3. He reports seeing hand-held image she took from Gemini-5 that
showed readable license plates on cars down on Earth - when the
actual pictures from the actual camera he refers to barely make
out city blocks and airfields.

4. His made-for-TV narrative of Jim McDivitt's Gemin-4
UFO encounter includes about twenty factual errors in
a thirty second story, when compared against McDivitt's
own story.

5. He was passed over for command of a moon landing, he claims,
because of 'office politics', when all historical accounts are
consistent that he was considered not trustworthy to perform
adequately in command of such a complex mission, and was offered
a secondary, simpler mission to Skylab, which he rejected
angily, and quit NASA.

6. He exploited the popular culture notion that as an astronaut
he was a trustworthy advisor and advocate regarding technology,
by talking people and groups into investing more than two
million dollars into development projects he got involved with.
Everyone involved (including himself - he was sincere) lost it
all. Yet no mention of these episodes appears in his
(auto?)biography, and he was still trying to raise more of other
people's money to the end, for new investment projects.

These are all verifiable, documented disconnects, that at the
very least raise serious questions about how much should be
believed - and how much Cooper actually intended people to
believe - about some of his stories, which were offered for
entertainment at UFO conventions and TV shows he was invited to.


James Oberg







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   Oct > Oct 27

                 Avrocar vs. Weather Balloon At Edwards AFB

From: Joachim Koch <lists.nul>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 16:52:50 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 07:19:58 -0400
Subject: Avrocar vs. Weather Balloon At Edwards AFB


>From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:24:48 -0500
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>Jim, I found something rather interesting that I think you
>should look at:

>http://www.edwards.af.mil/moments/docs_html/50s-toc.html

>See anything unusual?

>Not counting 1950 we seem to be missing one year, care to guess
>which one? All the sudden by golly! Look at the first story to
>hit 1958, just a coincidence or was Cooper right all along <G>

So if this was an Avrocar then the Weather Balloon explanation
would be - another lie? Maybe it was not a Weather Balloon but a
MOGUL Balloon? And the MOGUL Balloon crash of July 4th 1947 was
in reality a crash of an Avrocar with test dummies on bord??

:-))

Joachim Koch

-----------------------------------------
GERMAN CROP CIRCLE RESEARCH
Breaking news about Project Toliman see:
http://www.kochkyborg.de
Requests for lectures under:
protoliman.nul
-----------------------------------------







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                     Sheaffer Slams UFO UpDates Readers

From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows.nul>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:02:38 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 07:24:04 -0400
Subject: Sheaffer Slams UFO UpDates Readers


UFO UpDates Readers "Incapable Of Distinguishing Logical From
Illogical Thought"


CSICOPian Robert Sheaffer has authored an article about the
Mexican UFO video, explaining it as that of oil well flares.
After reviewing the case and suggested explanations, he notes
that:

"By their reaction, the "leaders" of Ufology have shown
themselves incapable of distinguishing logical from illogical
thought, and science from pseudoscience. The lesson of the
Mexican Infrared UFO video illustrates once again the inability
of the UFO movement to perform critical thinking."

The September issue of the Skeptical Inquirer, in which this
article appears, is now online at:

http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-09/campeche.html








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                          Secrecy News -- 10/26/04

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 12:13:41 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 07:25:28 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 10/26/04


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 93
October 26, 2004


**      HOUSE/SENATE INTEL REFORM BILLS: A COMPARATIVE ANALYSIS (CRS)
**      POSTPONEMENT OF STATE ELECTIONS (CRS)
**      GOVERNMENT ACTIVITIES TO PROTECT THE ELECTRIC GRID (CRS)
**      SENATE INTEL COMMITTEE REORGANIZATION (CRS)
**      UN CONVENTION AGAINST TORTURE (CRS)
**      INVENTION SECRECY UP SLIGHTLY IN 2004


HOUSE/SENATE INTEL REFORM BILLS: A COMPARATIVE ANALYSIS (CRS)

The significant disparities between the House and Senate
versions of legislation to reform the U.S. intelligence
bureaucracy are mapped out in a new report from the
Congressional Research Service.

Given that the published version of the House bill alone fills
more than 600 pages, not many people -- not even members of
Congress -- are likely to read the whole thing.

But at 91 pages, the CRS review is somewhat more digestible.

CRS policy prohibits direct public access to CRS publications.

But see "H.R. 10 (9/11 Recommendations Implementation Act) and
S. 2845 (National Intelligence Reform Act of 2004): A
Comparative Analysis," updated October 21, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL32635.pdf


POSTPONEMENT OF STATE ELECTIONS (CRS)

The possible postponement of elections due to terrorist attack
or other emergency is addressed in yet another new CRS report
(the third to address the subject, by our count).

"Due to the possibility of an emergency or disaster, including
the threat of a terrorist attack, occurring immediately before
or during a scheduled election, some states have enacted
statutes providing for the temporary postponement of elections
in their respective states, precincts, districts, or counties.
This Report summarizes seven state statutes that provide a
mechanism for the postponement of certain elections."

See "State Election Laws: Overview of Statutes Regarding
Emergency Election Postponement Within the State," September 22,
2004:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/RS21942.pdf


GOVERNMENT ACTIVITIES TO PROTECT THE ELECTRIC GRID (CRS)

"The electric utility system is vulnerable to outages caused by
a range of activities, including system operator errors, weather
related damage, and terrorist attacks," according to another new
Congressional Research Service report.

"This report provides a description of initiatives within the
Federal Energy Regulatory Commission and the Departments of
Energy, Homeland Security, and Defense to protect the physical
transmission infrastructure."

See "Government Activities to Protect the Electric Grid,"
October 20, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/RS21958.pdf


SENATE INTEL COMMITTEE REORGANIZATION (CRS)

Earlier this month, the Senate adopted a resolution that will
modify the organization and procedures governing intelligence
oversight.

Among the dozen or so changes, the eight-year term limit on
intelligence committee membership is eliminated, and the size of
the committee is reduced from 17 to 15.  The resolution also
amends slightly the procedures for publicly disclosing
classified information (which have never been used).

The provisions of the resolution are summarized by the CRS in
"S.Res. 445: Senate Committee Reorganization for Homeland
Security and Intelligence Matters":

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RS21955.pdf


UN CONVENTION AGAINST TORTURE (CRS)

The United Nations Convention Against Torture, which has been
conditionally ratified by the United States, recognizes no
circumstances under which torture could be permitted.

But this clarity of principle has been lacking in some quarters
of the Bush Administration.

A recent CRS study examines how US policy comports with the
requirements of the UN Convention.

See "U.N. Convention Against Torture (CAT): Overview and
Application to Interrogation Techniques," June 16, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL32438.pdf


INVENTION SECRECY UP SLIGHTLY IN 2004

The total number of patent secrecy orders imposed on patent
applications under the Invention Secrecy Act of 1951 rose
slightly last year to 4,885.  Most originated in previous years.
 There were 124 new secrecy orders added during the year.

The Invention Secrecy Act is one of two laws under which the
government asserts a right to restrict the disclosure of
privately generated information on national security grounds.
 (The other law is the Atomic Energy Act.)  The
constitutionality of this practice has never been tested.

While the large majority of secret inventions are produced by
government contractors or with government funding, some are not.
Secrecy orders imposed on private individuals or businesses who
developed their idea without government sponsorship are termed
"John Doe" secrecy orders.

Last year, there were 61 new "John Doe" secrecy orders, up from
51 the year before.

A tabulation of the latest statistics on invention secrecy,
released under the Freedom of Information Act, is here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/invention/stats.html

In its FOIA response, the US Patent and Trademark Office
observed that the Federation of American Scientists web site
makes invention secrecy information available and suggested
helpfully if incongruously that "you may wish to consult that
site" in the future.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/invention/stats.pdf



_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

Secrecy News has an RSS feed at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood.nul
voice:  (202) 454-4691







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   Oct > Oct 27

                        New Radio Show Out Of Alabama

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO Research <hbccufo.nul>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:55:29 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 07:27:43 -0400
Subject: New Radio Show Out Of Alabama


New Radio Show Out Of Alabama

Hi List

Hope all is well everyone.

I was about to walk out the door this morning when I received a
call from a radio host at WKAV 1080:

http://www.wkac1080.com/

who asked if I would do a weekly show with them. I said yep. It
will be darn interesting to see what comes from the area in the
way of reports.

I will be on air every Friday morning early to give the latest
updates from Alabama and other areas.


Take care

Brian








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                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 43

From: John Hayes <John.nul>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 19:20:23 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 07:30:39 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 43


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan.nul>
==========================

      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 9, Number 43
October 27, 2004
Editor: Joseph Trainor

E-mail: Masinaigan.nul
Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/


A UFO CRASH AT WORLEY?

      UK ufologist Stephen F. Balon is hot on the trail of
what may be the biggest UFO story in the British Isles
since the saucer crash at Boyle, Ireland in 1995.
      On Wednesday, October 13, 2004, at 7:30 a.m., a
massive explosion rocked the greater Manchester area in
UK.  According to Balon, "the explosion was heard as far
west as the Isle of Man, as far north as Rochdale and as
far south as Timberly."
      The initial report "appeared in the Manchester
Evening News, about an explosion that centred in the
village of Worley, near Manchester," Balon said, "At first
it was thought an earthquake was the cause.  The British
Geological Survey was contacted and said this had not
disturbed any seismic instruments."  (See UFO Roundup,
volume 9, number 42 for October 20, 2004, "Mystery boom
rattles Manchester, UK," page 5.)
      "Dozens of people living in Worley sent their
comments to the Manchester Evening News Web site to give
their explanations of what had happened," Balon added,
"What has come from this case is nothing short of
incredible.  I have been investigating this case for days,
and there is no doubt about what happened here."
      Balon claims that a UFO crashed in a wood near the
center of Worley and that the site was cordoned off by
uniformed and plainclothes police for a few days
thereafter.
      "A second article was published in the Manchester
Evening News in which a woman driving home from work saw
in the sky two fireball-type objects with flames coming
off them.  I have collected reports from dozens of
individual people who saw these two objects in different
areas."
      "Also, a report from Jodrell Bank (observatory) said
in the Manchester Evening News that it was a bolide or
meteor that caused the explosion.  The bolide was the size
of 'a hazel nut or a tennis ball,'" an astronomer said.
      "I got a report from a witness on the Isle of Man,
100 miles (160 kilometers) away," Balon said.
      "Also, a man out walking his dog on the day of the
incident saw uniformed police officers walking around a
wood in the centre of Worley.  Also, a man stopped his car
near the (motorway M60) exit for Worley.  Another motorist
pulled onto the hard shoulder due to hearing the huge
explosion.  He said he saw smoke coming from the wood near
to where the (other) man had seen the police looking
around.  Plainclothes police were walking in pairs near
the scene."
      On Friday morning, "October 15, 2004, a local man
said, 'There were dozens of police all over Worley centre,
and the park (parking lot in the USA--J.T.) was full of
police vehicles."
      "The last piece of the jigsaw in this case concerns a
lady in the town of Bury who on the day of the explosion
saw four RAF (Tornado fighter) jets flying at a very low
level, heading towards the Salford-Manchester area."
      The similarities to the Boyle case are amazing.  In
1995, a daylight disc crashlanded north of a lake in
Boyle, County Roscommon, Ireland.  NATO troops and Gardai
(Irish national police--J.T.) immediately surrounded and
cordoned off the crash site.  Five extraterrestrial
survivors were reportedly captured.
      The "Boyle Five" were taken to Shannon International
Airport, near Dublin, and then airlifted to the USA, where
they were reportedly incarcerated at Camp Condon, a P.O.W.
facility for captured aliens.
      "So, did they find something in the wood so strange
that there has been nothing about this incident on TV,
radio or in the newspapers?" Balon asked, "One has to ask-
-has a D Notice been put on this case" by UK's Ministry of
Defence?
      Stephen F. Balon is a former DIGAP member who has
been involved in research into UFOs, the paranormal, crop
circles and anomalies for over 40 years.  Balon is a noted
lecturer who has appeared on TV several times and was a
colleague of the late Arthur Tomlinson.  Together they
investigated the Ilkely Moor UFO case.  Balon has also
written extensively on the Silpho Moor UFO case.  (See the
Manchester Evening News for October 13, 2004 and for
October 14, 2004, "What did this woman see in the sky?"
page 1.  Many thanks to Stephen F. Balon and John Hayes
for this news story.)


VILLAGERS SAY ALIENS
ARE BUILDING A BASE
IN THE HIMALAYAS

      Mountain villagers in the Tarai region of India's
Himachal Pradesh state claim that UFOs have been seen "by
day and by night" near the high-altitude glaciers of the
Himalayas and that "aliens are building a very large
underground base up there."
      Since Sunday, October 10, 2004, UFOs, ranging in size
from "very large cylindrical objects of a dull silver
colour" to "small speedy discs," have been seen over the
glaciers north of Chini, about 40 kilometers (25 miles)
from India's border with China.  UFOs seen at night were
said to "glow red and gold."
      "More Indian military personnel and local natives are
coming forward in the Himalayas' Tarai area and are
reporting many exceedingly abnormal activities and UFO
sightings all around the clock."
      "Some (Indian) helicopter pilots are complaining
about sophisticated jamming."
      "A young boy in Nepal drew a picture of what appears
to be an extraterrestrial flying object.  He saw it while
playing with many friends on the ground.  The boys
reported that these vehicles have no sound, can take off
vertically, and can float in defiance of gravity.  These
vehicles can disappear all of a sudden," reported Sumit
Chatterjee.
      "Some of the IAF (Indian Air Force--J.T.) pilots are
continually reporting seeing strange flying objects in the
Himalayas near the Chinese border."
      "A Tibetan (Buddhist) monk who recently visited India
said these activities have been going on since 1998."
      "According to a scientist of the Indian Geological
Survey, UFOs and strange beings are visiting a 100-square-
kilometer portion of the Tarai.  Visits have occurred
frequently during the past 18 months.  The northeastern
region of Himachal Pradesh has experienced many varied
sightings."
      Chatterjee added, "Among the local people is a rumour
that 'they' will land here in the next seven years.  Some
Indian ufologists say that beings from Sirius will land on
Earth and publicly reveal themselves in 2012."
      "Is this the final prophecy of the landing that the
Mayans predicted centuries ago?"
      "The military personnel are talking privately but
maintain that for national security reasons nothing more
can be said.  But at least one of the officers has come
out and said bluntly that these are UFOs."
      "There are many indications that a large underground
base is now being built within the hard andesite (bedrock)
of the high Himalayas.  The construction is going on in
the high terrain close to the No Man's Land between India
and China."
      "Another interesting thing--increased Indian and
Chinese army activity has been seen in the region."
      But the strangest report comes from the Chinese side
of the border.  A Chinese armored brigade, outfitted with
T-80 main battle tanks, was ordered to proceed to the
border from the People's Liberation Army (PLA) base in
Niuke.  But when the tanks got to Zhada, they got a real
surprise.
      "Recently an artificial lake was created in China"
west of Zhada, "very close to the Indian border.  "The
lake" filled the Langchui River (called the Sutlej River
on the Indian side--J.T.) valley and "threatened to flood
the Indian side.  India and China both refused to
investigate the incident.  Then, all of a sudden, the
local Chinese people reported that the lake was no longer
there.  Whatever remained of the lake was no longer a
threat to the Indian villagers.  What really happened?"
Chatterjee asked, "What caused an artificial lake of this
size?  And who took care of removing the problem?"
      "It appears that the aliens melted a glacier and
created the temporary lake to prevent those Chinese tanks
from reaching the border," said Krishnari Bai
Dharapurnanda, a UFO Roundup correspondent in India.
"There are many rumours at the Indian Space Research
Organisaton (ISRO).  They say these UFOs are definitely
planning and building a fortress in the Himalayas for a
purpose known only to the aliens themselves."
      In China, UFO Roundup correspondent Chen Jilin
reported, "No news is coming out of the Langchui Valley.
It is a military region with very tight security.  But the
rumour is, the Extraterrestrials are active in the region
with the collusion of the (Chinese Communist) Party and
New Delhi, to ward off an attack from the Anglo-Americans
and the Israelis."  (See India Daily for October 9, 2004,
"More UFOs in Indian skies."  Many thanks to Sumit
Chatterjee, Krishnari Bai Dharapurnanda and Chen Jilin for
this news story.)


FLOTILLA OF 23 SILVER UFOs
SEEN IN VERACRUZ, MEXICO

      On Tuesday, October 19, 2004, at 11:30 a.m., a
flotilla of 23 silver crescent-shaped UFOs flew over the
port city of Veracruz, 350 kilometers (210 miles) east of
Mexico City.
      "Ricardo Antonio Lopez Mendez, a resident of
Veracruz, described the sighting of a flotilla of UFOs,
which flew and hovered over the seaport city at 11:30 a.m.
The crescent-shaped UFOs, which were of a brilliant silver
color, remained in view for approximately 45 minutes."
      According to Mexican ufologist Ana Luisa Cid,
"Eyewitnesses described several semi-spherical objects
which changed colors.  They were seen by both a police
patrol and a commercial jetliner while over the city.
Cell phones were affected, and animal reacted violently to
the passage of the mysterious objects."
      Eyewitnesses in El Centro, the main plaza of
Veracruz, first noticed a strange formation flying
parallel with a major thoroughfare, Sra. Cid reported.
"They saw the objects fly over their street.  One said,
'Look!  A flight of ducks."  But his friend replied,
'Those aren't ducks.  That's a flotilla of UFOs!'"
      "Ten minutes after the initial sighting, a police
patrol, Car 87, entered El Centro, viewed the phenomena
and attempted to radio their central headquarters.  They
were unable to raise the police dispatcher.  At the same
time, a woman witness attempted to use her cell phone.
She finally managed to get through to her friend, a
helicopter pilot who believes in UFOs.  The pilot told her
that a commercial pilot had also seen the objects and had
radioed the tower at the airport."
      The UFOs were reportedly seen by the crew of an
AeroMexico Boeing 737, which had just taken off for the
flight across the Gulf of Mexico to Miami, Florida, Sra.
Cid added.
      "There were 23 objects, semi-spherical, of a color
silver, which flew in a V formation.  The objects actually
changed color throughout the flight.  At the moment they
changed color, to red or to green, they changed their
position within the formation.  The objects changed from
green to red, doing it each time more and more rapidly.
The objects finally broke formation and disappeared in all
directions."  (Muchas gracias a Raquel Garza, Jaime
Hernandez y Ana Luisa Cid para estas noticias.)


UNUSUAL BLUE MIST TRAILS
COUPLE IN CHESHIRE, UK

      On Sunday, October 17, 2004, at around 1 a.m.,
eyewitness P.R. and his wife, D.R., were driving home to
Liverpool through rural Cheshire when they had a very
strange and unique experience.
      "I would like someone to give me and my wife a
logical explanation for what we experienced during the
early morning hours of Sunday, 17 October.  We were
driving home from friends in Cheshire, a rural area with
no lights on the road except for our car, when suddenly,
from the front of our car, a blue vapour appeared.  I
instantly thought we were entering some kind of mist, but
the vapour stayed in front of the car, travelling at an
equal speed, and then suddenly it started to spin."
      "I initially thought some kind of vortex was forming
and told my wife to slow the car down.  The spinning
continued, and I noticed some blue in it.  The rest was
white but not light."
      "The next we knew, it went on top of the car and let
the front bonnet ( hood in the USA--J.T.) up, with
cabbage-shaped blue forming on the windscreen.  Some sort
of cabbage-shape ether effect.  We both started to panic
as we entered a village which was lit up quite well.  We
turned right, back into the dark countryside, when it
appeared next to our car on the left.  It went up into the
air above the car, so I opened my (side) window and could
see what appeared to be two rings, one large wreath-
looking one and inside, a smaller plasma-like teardrop
shapes clustered together, spinning and decidedly
wobbling."
      "We done several right turns over a stretch of seven
miles (11 kilometers), but it stayed right in front of the
car until we reached the motorway.  My wife and I were
very shaken by the incident.  It accelerated upwards into
the clouds, and I could see it vapourize into a sheet."
      "This is genuine, and we would appreciate a
scientific explanation.  I have also reported this
incident to the authorities."  (Email Form Report)


STRANGE UFO MYSTERY
IN GREELEY, COLORADO

      On Friday, October 15, 2004, at 4:30 p.m., two
witnesses in Greeley, Colo.(population 76,930), a city
located 42 miles (67 kilometers) north-northeast of
Denver, spotted a triangular UFO.
      "I thought it was a flight of birds at first," the
33-year-old male witness reported, "Looking closer, I saw
the triangular object hovering over a row of trees near a
cornfield.  I was driving east and the object was to the
south.  Putting my attention back to the road, and then
looking back after briefly talking about it for 15 seconds
with my passenger (female, age 27), the object vanished."
      "We couldn't find it anywhere."
      Just a few hours after this sighting, a mysterious
act of vandalism was committed in Greeley.
      "A window was shattered in a building where a Judaic-
Christian group meets, and the pastor called it a hate
crime.  Vandals threw rocks through at window at
Celebration Congregation, where a 'messianic congregation'
meets.  On its Web site, the group says it meets in a
'Jewish context.'"
      "Police Lt. Carl Alm said investigators weren't sure
if it was a hate crime."
      UFO Roundup editor Joseph Trainor commented, "To the
best of my knowledge, this is the first time we've ever
had a UFO sighting and a hate crime in the same community
on the very same evening."  (See USA Today for October 19,
2004, "Across the USA--Colorado," page 7A.  Many thanks to
Jim Hickman, executive director of Skywatch International,
for this UFO report.)


WOMAN SPOTS A UFO IN
OCEAN BEACH, CALIFORNIA

      On Saturday, October 16, 2004, at 9 p.m., eyewitness
E.D. "was studying in my balcony and saw a light.  It was
really bright and sort of flashing.  Then I watched it
moving back and forth, then right and left.  It kept
changing colors and would sometimes seperate into two
objects and then rejoin (together).  It had bright lights
falling off into like fireworks.  Then it would disappear
and come back in a different color.  All different colors-
-mostly white, yellow, red and blue.  It changed size and
brightness and moved about like it had a brain."
      "I ran down to my neighbor's house" in Ocean Beach,
Cal. "and asked him to come back and look at it to make
sure that I was not crazy.  He came up to my balcony, and
it was still there--only it was in a different spot now.
But it was doing the same thing."
      "Then he left and came back to look at it, and it was
gone.  I kept staring, and then it got really bright and
shot off like a comet.  It had a tail of sparks and
lights, but it wasn't falling.  It was just traveling in a
straight line."
      "This is so strange.  What could it be?  I don't even
believe in aliens and spaceships.  Can somebody tell me
what this is?"  (Email Form Report)


STATIONARY UFO SIGHTED
IN PAX, WEST VIRGINIA

      On Monday, October 18, 2004, at 1 a.m., eyewitness
Barbara Wright reported, "There was an object that looked
like a star but was emitting colors of red, green and
blue" over her house in Pax, W.V. (population 80).
      "The object did not move" around the sky "but
appeared through my binoculars as having short jerky
movements, as though I was nervous holding the binoculars,
but I just put them against the window I was looking out
of, so this was not the case.  I woke my husband who also
observed the UFO."
      "We looked at the other stars to see if this might be
ice crystals.  This was a clear, crisp, starry night.  We
are in the mountains of West Virginia.  It is very dark
around us outside--no lights to hinder the night view of
the sky."
      "I called my mother this morning (Tuesday, October
19, 2004) and informed her of what I saw, and she informed
me that the pastor of our church had seen the same object
Sunday (October 17, 2004) at 5 p.m."
      "The object looked like it was rotating in a circular
motion, due to the lights we saw of blue, green and red.
I called the local paper who informed me of no satellites
or meteors in the area, and of no one earlier reporting an
object in the sky."
      "We observed the UFO for 20 to 30 minutes.  We went
outside to observe from our porch but heard no noise."
(Email Form Report)


TEENS SEE A NIGHT SAUCER
IN MILWAUKIE, OREGON

      On Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 8:30 p.m., teen
eyewitness J.O. and her three friends were hanging around
outdoors on Harrison Street in Milwaukie, Oregon
(population 20,490), a suburb just south of Portland, when
they spotted something unusual in the sky.
      "I was chatting with some friends when something
caught my eye," J.O. reported, "I looked up past the
treeline and said, 'What is that?'  It was behaving in
such an odd way, not going forward in a way that an
aircraft is expected to.  And going lower than I would
expect, also."
      "My friends were all terrified and confused in the
same way I was.  And then it disappeared--completely
vanished."
      "There were three bright lights shining off the
vehicle, which were shining in a forward arc.  This was
the first weird thing as it was obviously a circular
craft.  There was an odd, eerie cast to the lights."
(Email Form Report)


MASSIVE CROP CIRCLE FLAP
BREAKS OUT IN CANADA

      A massive crop circle flap has broken out in Canada,
with startling new formations appearing in the provinces
of Ontario, Saskatchewan and British Columbia.
      According to Paul Anderson of Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network (CCCRN), the first recent circle--the
fifteenth in Canada for 2004--appeared just outside
Breslau, Ontario.  "It was an oval in cattle corn standing
8 to 9 feet (2.4 to 2.7 metres) tall, approximately 23
metres (76 feet) long.  Found in late September by a
farmer on the side of a sandy knoll, generally oval in
shape but more roughly circular on the lower side and
'kidney-shaped' on the higher side.  Haphazard lay, with
bent and broken stalks lying on top of each other in
various directions, lying pointing uphill on the lower
side and downhill on the higher side.  Some stalks bent or
broke at the base; others about two to three feet (0.6 to
0.9 metres) above the ground and blackened.  A few lines
of unaffected single standing stalks.  The formation was
in close proximity to power lines and a woodlot.  Stalks
severed at the nodes were often blackened.  (Corn) cobs
eaten by raccoons and deer were also blackened."
      A second formation was found in Breslau on the other
side of the woodlot.  It was also "a circle in cattle corn
8 to 9 feet (2.4 to 2.7 metres) tall.  Haphazard lay, with
bent and broken stalks, about twice as large as the first
Breslau formation.  Other stalks again 'severed' through
nodes and blackened.  Approximately 0.4 kilometers (a
quarter-mile--J.T.) from the first formation, on the
opposite side of the woodlot in an adjacent field,
apparently in alignment with the woodlot and the first
formation."
      "According to a preliminary examination by" Dr.
Mervyn Erb, an agronomist and consultant to CCCRN in their
investigations, "the initial flattening of plants in the
formation itself and node anomalies were not caused by
windstorms, brittle crop, root worms, core borers, drought
stress or people.  The blackening of the broken stalks,
severed nodes and cobs is definitely from opportunistic
fungus, a common occurrence."
      In Chilliwack, British Columbia (population 60,186),
about 30 miles (48 kilometers) east of Vancouver, CCCRN
investigated "a lone T and other separate small
rectangular shapes in cattle corn, estimated to be
approximately 75 metres (250 feet) to 90 metres (300 feet)
long, based on aerial photos."
      The Chilliwack formation--the seventeenth in Canada
in 2004--"was found Friday, October 1, 2004 by Laurel
Leaman-Konrad and Jo Slingerland of CCCRN-British
Columbia."  The two Canadian cerealogists "were flying
over the area searching for a previously rumoured 'ankh'
formation, which was not found.  The field was harvested
before they could do a ground investigation.  Two other
odd pathways cutting away two opposite corners of the
field" were also found.
      In Assiniboia, Saskatchewan (population 2,653),
located 60 miles (100 kilometers) southwest of Regina, a
formation appeared, consisting of "eight circles in wheat,
ranging from approximately 3 metres (10 feet) to 16 metres
(53 feet) in diameter.  It was found Wednesday, October 6,
2004 by the farmer while harvesting.  Four circles had a
clockwise lay, and four circles were counterclockwise."
This case is under investigation by CCCRN-Saskatchewan.
      In Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan (population 32,973),
located on Provincial Highway 1 about 30 miles (48
kilometers) west of Regina, a "partial ring in wheat,
approximately 7.6 metres (25 feet) long, was found
Thursday, October 7, 2004, by a farmer while harvesting.
The circle is now in a deteriorated condition and is
thought to be several weeks old.  Stalks were bent at
about 20 centimetres (8 inches) above the ground."
CCCRN-Saskatchewan is investigating.
      In Waterloo, Ontario (population 77,949), located
about 40 miles (64 kilometers) west of Toronto, "a couple
looking for a lost Greyhound dog" found "a dumbbell in
cattle corn 8 to 9 feet (2.4 to 2.7 metres) high,
approximately 65 metres (215 feet) long.  Found Sunday,
October 17, 2004, near the location of the previous
Breslau, Ont. frmations.  Most stalks were bent at the
ground, often with the roots exposed.  Others were bent or
broken as high as the first or second nodes.  Both
formations had a clockwise lay, with additional multi-
directional lay in the larger circle" of the "dumbbell."
This was the twentieth crop circle formation found in
Canada in 2004.  (Many thanks to Paul Anderson of CCCRN
for these news reports.)


From the UFO Files...

1961: UNFORGETTABLE
           BETTY HILL

      One of the key figures of Twentieth Century ufology
passed away in New Hampshire last week.  Betty Hill
succumbed to cancer at her home on Monday, October 18,
2004.  She was 85.
      Born in 1919, Betty was a 41-year-old housewife in
Portsmouth, N.H. when she had her UFO experience, which
opened the door to the phenomenon we know call "alien
abduction."
      Betty and her husband were living in Portsmouth in
September 1961.  Barney Hill, 39, "worked as a mail-sorter
in Boston, commuting the 120-mile (193-kilometer) round
trip each day.  Betty was a social worker for the state of
New Hampshire.  Both were very active in civil rights
campaigning and were on their church's United Nations
Committee."
(Editor's Note:  Liberal churches in the USA formed these
committees to combat the right-wing John Birch Society.
During the early 1960s, the JBS organized local committees
called TRAIN--To Restore American Independence Now--which
lobbied for the USA's withdrawal from the United Nations.)
      "In mid-September 1961," Betty and Barney "drove to
Canada for a short break from their hectic schedule.  The
weather reports spoke of a hurricane moving along the
(USA's) East Coast.  They decided on an all-night drive
home to avoid the impending storm."
      At 9 p.m. on September 19, 1961, the Hills "had
dinner in Colebrook, N.H. and then continued their journey
southbound on U.S. Highway 3."
      At a place called Indian Head, "near Lancaster, N.H.,
just west of the White Mountains, Betty noticed a bright
light near the moon, and getting brighter.  However, the
light didn't go away, and they stopped their car to see it
better."
      "Looking through binoculars, Barney thought it was an
aircraft (he was an avid 'plane watcher'--P.B.) and
suggested various types it might be.  They drove on
slowly, but now the light seemed to be closer."
      "Betty looked through the binoculars and said she
could see a huge craft with a double row of windows.  They
stopped again.  Barney took the binoculars and walked
towards the light, which had dropped to tree height, until
he was only 50 feet (15 meters) from it."
      "Through binoculars he now saw an object 'like a big
pancake' with a row of windows; 'at least a dozen'
occupants, dressed in Nazi-style (black) uniforms, were
visible.  Suddenly, irrationally convinced he was about to
be captured, he fled back to the car in terror."
      "Later, the couple heard two sets of beeping sounds
as they drove home.  They reached Portsmouth in daylight,
having taken seven hours to cover the last 180 miles (300
kilometers) of their trip."
      "Betty reported the sighting to Pease Air Force Base"
in New Hampshire.  Curiously, the very same night, USAF
airmen operating the tower radar at Pease "confirmed that
radar had shown an 'unknown' in the air at the time the
Hills had had their encounter."
      Betty also "began avidly to read all she could about
UFOs; within a week she reported their experience to NICAP
(National Investigating Committee for Aerial Phenomena,
the forerunner of today's MUFON--J.T.)."
      "From 29 September to 3 October (1961) she had a
series of nightmares in which she saw a group of humanoids
blocking U.S. (Highway) 3; she and Barney were then led
aboard the UFO they had seen, and they were medically
examined."
      "In late October (1961), in a session with NICAP
investigators, Barney realized that the journey from
Colebrook had taken two hours longer than it should have
done.  There seemed to be 'missing time' after the UFO
sighting."
      "Barney began to suffer from ulcers, high blood
pressure and exhaustion from his grueling commuting and
developed a ring of warts around his groin.  He had
psychiatric treatment for a year from summer 1962 and
eventually asked his therapist to arrange regressive to
settle the question of what had really happened on 19
September 1961.  He began hypnosis with Dr. Benjamin Simon
of Boston in December 1963 and was soon joined by Betty."
      Like her husband, Betty "told approximately the same
story under hypnosis.  They had been roadblocked by
humanoids with large eyes, no nose, and slitted, lipless
mouths.  Once on board the UFO, each was given a medical
examination.  A long needle was inserted into Betty's
navel; she was told this was a pregnancy test.  Barney had
a circular instrument applied to his groin."
      "After her examination, Betty was shown a star map
with no legend on it."  The female alien pointed out her
home star system and then pointed to Earth's sun, which
appeared to be "out in the boonies," well off the
established star trade routes.  Betty was "told she would
not remember the experience."
(Editor's Note: And indeed she didn't.  It was not until
Betty began her hypnotherapy sessions with Dr. Simon in
1964 that she began to remember.)
      Betty's "star map" proved to be the most
controversial point in the Hill case.
"Ohio schoolteacher Margaret Fish used beads of a string
to construct configurations of the stars shown in the map
Betty Hill remembered being shown by the aliens, and found
a pattern indicating that they had come from Zeta
Reticuli, about 3.7 light years (21.8 trillion miles--
J.T.) from Earth.  Charles W. Atterberg of Florida did
much the same thing--and found a totally different set of
stars.  Then astronomers Carl Sagan and Steven Soter used
computers to check the positions of the 15 stars that
Margaret Fish had said matched Betty's map.  This produced
a configuration that bore 'little similarity' to the Hill
star map."
      Yet, over the years, the abducting aliens, often
called Greys, have come to be known as Zeta Reticulans.
      Dr. Simon, one of Boston's most prestigious
physicians and a thoroughgoing materialist, "noted that
Betty's account under hypnosis precisely matched the
content of her dreams and concluded that the Hills had had
an imaginary experience caused by fear after a genuine
close encounter with a UFO."
      Dr. Simon wrote: "Hypnosis is the pathway to the
Truth as it is felt and understood by the patient.  The
Truth is what he believes to be the truth, and this may or
may not be consonant with the ultimate non-personal
truth."
      Still plagued by ill-health, Barney died of a
cerebral hemorrhage in 1969.  Betty remained a resident of
New Hampshire for the following 35 years.  "Betty Hill
continued to believe in the reality of her abduction."
During interviews from the 1970s to the 1990s, Betty
admitted that she had had occasional visual encounters
with UFOs, but she would not say if she had had meetings
with extraterrestrials since that fatal day in September
1961.
      Betty Hill now knows the answer to the continuing UFO
mystery.  (See the book UFO: The Complete Sightings by
Peter Brookesmith, Barnes & Noble Books, 1995, pages 74
and 75.)

      Well, that's it for this week.  Join us in seven days
for more UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the
planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home-
-UFO Roundup."  See you next time.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2004 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved.  Readers may post news items from UFO
Roundup on their Web sites or in news groups provided that
they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list
the date of issue in which they item first appeared.

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan.nul>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://www.ufoinfo.com/submit/sightings.shtml

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   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Oct > Oct 27

                         Re: Fort Wayne UFOs - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:21:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 07:32:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Fort Wayne UFOs - King


>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 08:36:12 -0500
>Subject: Fort Wayne UFOs

>After the recent 'flap' about the WANE-TV video showing a UFO -
>see it at:

>http://www.wildesociety.org

>there have been other sightings - one last weekend - 10/23 -
>reported by WANE-TV again, but attributed to a meteor shower
>- which didn't meet the sighting descriptions.

>That aside, a friend of mine, a co-owner of Fort Wayne Reader,
>a weekly newspaper here - saw a strange object in the sky near
>his workplace two weeks ago.

>He viewed the object for 45 minutes or so, until it shot off. He
>had fellow workers observe it with him.

>Now this isn't an unsophisticated guy. He has some familiarity
>with the UFO phenomenon and his paper did a piece on the topic a
>few months ago.

>I asked him if he'd write up his experience so I could share it
>with UFO UpDates readers. He declined, saying he didn't want his
>name attached to a UFO sighting...  and this in 2004!

>Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.


Hi Rich,

Yes, and the sentiment that leads people to deny a sighting is
more prevalent today than ever before.

As jobs grow more scarce, one must try to be as normal as
possible. Standing out is not perceived as good these days.
Protecting ones livelihood is more important than wondering
about something odd in the sky.

As perception is now portrayed to be more important than
reality, one must bend to the popular perception or be judged
against it, regardless of the validity of the perception. No one
wants to be perceived as a kook, even if they know they are not
one.

As corporations, governments, and the military strive to create
the perception that everything is wonderful, and we are the
best, and we are always right, there's little room for unknowns,
and especially unknowns that intimate that we have a weakness
that we cannot address.

None of these entities wants the people to believe we are under
a threat from which we cannot be protected, even if that is the
truth.

So stories are shown on the news... Fort Wayne, Campeche, etc...
which are easily explained, so that those that have seen real
evidence are cast as imagineers, and the stories that are truly
unexplained are swept under the mat for reasons of national
security.

My question...

If the government's responsibility is to provide for our
defense, and finds a threat for which there is no defense, why
should that government stand at all? Is the perception of safety
is only that, why should we pay taxes for a government defense
establishment which is impotent against the highest threat?
Isn't that taxation without representation? If we are paying to
build an army that they know cannot defend us, isn't the
government just a sham anyway? And isn't their policy of secrecy
of these issues just to further the sham, and to line the
pockets of those most involved?

When the truth is what the government decides it is, that isn't
democracy, it is what we went to war in Europe to fight.

In America, we face the same threat. Our government is
reinventing reality for our own good.

As you said, Rich, the more things change, the more they stay
the same.

If only Ike had seen the third leg of his military-industrial
complex... the religious right... he's have had a lot more to
say, but we'd probably still be right where we are.

What is most amazing to me is that we are fighting primarily
against a religious fanaticism, while we employ religious
fanaticism to justify it.

We are right, we are doing God's work, we cannot fail, we must
prevail.

Our words or theirs? Try BOTH.


Best Regards,

Kyle








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                        Re: Fort Wayne UFOs - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:32:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 07:33:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Fort Wayne UFOs - Hebert


>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 08:36:12 -0500
>Subject: Fort Wayne UFOs

>After the recent 'flap' about the WANE-TV video showing a UFO -
>see it at:

>http://www.wildesociety.org

It appears to be a contrail (as many have already indicated)
caused by a jet.

I have videotaped these 'objects' for years for the IFO Database
because people have begun posting similar images of contrails on
the internet, in magazines, etc. calling them "UFO's" or
"chemtrails".  I have spent a lot of time filming all kinds of
contrails so I know how they look in videos, photographs and
video stills.  The person that filmed this contrail almost seems
to  deliberately avoid allowing the viewer to see the objects in
the foreground because they provide a better perspective of how
the object behaved, how fast/slow it was moving and how far away
it was.  Once in a while, you catch a glimpse of two objects in
the foreground which show the object to be moving very slow - as
a contrail will do in the sky.

We need to focus on UFO's not IFO's if we are ever going to find
some answers.


A. Hebert








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               Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings? - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 14:19:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 07:34:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings? - King


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 08:00:54 EDT
>Subject: Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings?

<snip>

>>>>>Thanks Eleanor White, but I said 'changelings' not 'chanelling'.

<snip>

>Yes, all well and good, but what's this got to do with
>'changelings'? Referring to the 2nd definition listed below.

>Main Entry: change=B7ling
>Pronunciation: 'chAnj-li[ng]
>Function: noun
>Date: 1537
>1 : archaic : TURNCOAT
>2 : a child secretly exchanged for another in infancy
>3 : archaic : IMBECILE
>- changeling adjective
>
>c. 2001 by Merriam-Webster, Incorporated
>Merriam-Webster Privacy Policy

Hi Greg,

Please excuse the tangent. Didn't mean to muddy things up.

On changelings, I lean to the argument that the entire subject
is a myth conjured to abet the torment of killing a deformed
child. Since life is sacred, the only moral justification for
killing a crippled child was to declare them non-human.

Remember, white slave owners used exactly this justification
here in the free USA, for slavery. All men are created equal,
but blacks aren't men, ergo slavery is not unconstitutional, and
perhaps not even immoral.

Martin Luther was a visionary with a vivid imagination, which
seems almost redundant, but imagination was used to solve a
problem.

When a couple bore a deformed child, one could say the couple
was being punished by God. When people of power bore such
children, this was not a palatable explanation. The myth was
altered to exonerate the parents. The Devil himself came in the
night, replaced the perfect child with an inhuman monstrosity.
This solved two problems. First, no one had to feel the shame of
killing a child(human). Second, no aspersion was cast on the
parents. Neat and tidy. Reinforces ones hatred for Satan(evil),
and requires no troubled conscience over the solution. In fact,
the sin would be to allow such an abomination to survive.

Now, completely aside from this whole idea is the fact that from
a purely pragmatic perspective, it is a proper instinct which
can be observed in every other species as well. Survival of the
fittest is not served by allowing the crippled to live, much
less to reproduce. Likewise, in those days, medicine was a
crippled infant itself. Often, medical treatment was more
harmful than rest and fluids. One could ill-afford the cost, or
the emotional stress of having a crippled child treated as a
normal one.

The church simply provided a comfortable means of justifying
what nature...or natural selection...already dictated.

They would say that it was more civilized. No society could
allow children to be killed. So they're not children. God says
so. And no couple deserves blame for bearing such a child,
because they bore a perfect child. It was Satan himself who
switched them. God says so.

The Brothers Grimm are to be commended for marketing the myth,
and bringing it into the popular culture of the day, even if it
is simply a device of man. Of course, I could be incorrect in
this assertion.

It is a fascinating subject, at any rate. Thanks for the post.


Best Regards,

Kyle









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   Oct > Oct 27

                       Sheriff Probes Mutilated Cattle

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 07:37:29 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 07:37:29 -0400
Subject: Sheriff Probes Mutilated Cattle




Source: The Craig Daily Press - Craig, Colorado

http://www.craigdailypress.com/section/frontpage_lead/storypr/14291

Sheriff Probes Mutilated Cattle

By Amy Hatten

Wednesday, October 20, 2004

The Moffat County Sheriff's Office is investigating the
mutilation and killing of three area cows.

Two steers and one heifer in a herd owned by Jacque Osburn
mysteriously have been killed and their genitals removed between
Oct. 10 and 16, Moffat County Sheriff's deputy Courtland Folks
said.

"Possibly it could have been done for some type of worship with
the organs," Folks said. "It's something that makes livestock
owners uncomfortable."

Osburn said the cattle that was in a pasture near the Craig-
Moffat County Airport already had been sold to a buyer. She
estimated a loss of up to 1,300 pounds of meat and a personal
financial hit of up to $2,400.

Folks said no visible marks were present on the cattle to
determine how they were killed, but the department is contacting
the state's veterinary services to conduct further
investigation.

Osburn said incidences of livestock mutilation were rampant in
the area about 20 years ago, but this is the first time that any
of her cattle have been mutilated. Osburn said she has a "small
cattle operation" of about 200 head. She has moved the calves in
her herd to a different pasture.

"I guess if it's going to happen anytime, it's going to happen
around Halloween," she said. "I hope it's not the start of
something, but you never know."

Osburn said she has started to circulate word of the incident to
other ranchers, so they can watch their livestock.

Law enforcement is looking for leads in the case, and anyone who
has seen suspicious activity in the livestock fields should call
the sheriff's office, Folks said.

Folks said livestock mutilation wasn't unheard of in Moffat
County, though it is rare.

"It's a little more common when you get closer to the larger
areas," he said.

If charged, a person could face a minimum of a misdemeanor
charge of animal cruelty, said Amy Fitch, 14th Judicial District
chief deputy district attorney.

Osburn said she wouldn't be as outraged by the incident if a
person needed the meat for survival. Instead, she has pictures
of the dead animals with only their sexual organs removed.

Insurance will cover the costs of the animals if it is proved
that the animals were shot, hit by lightning, drowned or hit by
a vehicle, she said.

"It's scary," she said. "People feel pretty immune from crime
when out here, but we're not. It wasn't a good trick, and it
sure as hell wasn't a treat."

Amy Hatten can be reached at 824-7031 or
ahatten.nul








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                Re: Stereotypical UFOs & Researchers - Harney

From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 21:23:50 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 07:39:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Stereotypical UFOs & Researchers - Harney


>From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul-realitycheck.com>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: 23 Oct 2004 10:54:30 -0000
>Subject: Stereotypical UFOs & Researchers

>Sightings that do not fit the stereotypical descriptions of
>UFOs (i.e. saucer-shaped, triangular-shaped, etc.) are often
>dismissed and/or ignored by UFO organizations, UFO researchers
>and investigators because they do not fit neatly into any
>category nor do they reflect what most people currently believe
>about UFOs.

>These types of sightings actually tell us more about UFOs than
>the typical saucer or triangular shaped UFO sighting - if you
>think outside the box (excuse the pun).

I have just completed some web pages on a rather unusual
sighting, which occurred during World War 1. There was a short
article about it by Gordon Creighton titled "The Aldeburgh
Platform" in Flying Saucer Review many years ago, but this is a
rather more detailed treatment. It is on the Magonia Extra web
site at:

http://magonia.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/ald01.htm


John Harney








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               Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings? - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 19:38:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 07:41:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings? - King


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 08:00:54 EDT
>Subject: Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings?

<snip>

>Thanks Eleanor White, but I said 'changelings' not
>'chanelling'.

<snip>

Hi Greg and List,

While not specifically changeling-related, I found several
interesting accounts at this site:

http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/abduct.html

Good perspective on the abduction phenomena of which changeling
accounts are a subset.


Best,

Kyle







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                Re: Mexican Air Force FLIR Lights Altitude -

From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 23:53:36 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 07:42:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexican Air Force FLIR Lights Altitude -


>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 15:08:01 -0700
>Subject: Mexican Air Force FLIR Lights Altitude

<snip>

>There is still a controversy about how and why the FLIR's video
>lights filmed by Mexican Air Force C26A crew on march 05, 2004
>seem to be at the same altitude of 11,500 ft level flight.

>Objects located over the earth's surface at a great distance and
>closer to the horizon are seen at or almost the same level or
>altitude.

>Here is an explanation for people with little or none, low
>flying experience, or aeronautical knowledge.

>http://www.alcione.org/ARTIF_HORIZON/

<snip>

Hi Capt. Franz!

One clear night while working from the summit of the 2000 metre
high Asir mountains of Saudi Arabia near the northern border of
Yemen and east of the Red Sea, I noticed a mysterious stationary
horizontal string of faint lights to the west. They were very
high above the wadi below. I pointed out these UFOs to
colleagues who, like me, had never seen them before and could
not figure out what they could be.

Well, after checking a map, I was able to convince myself that
these UFOs were simply the lights from distant Port Sudan to the
west of the Red Sea over 300(?) kilometers away. Yes, like the
lights in the FLIR video, this string of lights were seen
straight ahead and well above the clouds and rugged terrain
below and they certainly did seem be at the same elevation as I
was but they proved to be simply the lights from a very distant
city along the horizon that was invisible to me in the dark.

Although I did see this stationary string of faint lights again
from the same mountain top on a few occasions afterwards when
the sky was dark and very clear, most other nights the lights of
Port Sudan were not visible at all, probably obscured in the
haze along the horizon over the Red Sea.

Everyone, including experienced observers of the sky can be
confused by familiar objects seen under unfamiliar conditions.


Nick Balaskas








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   Oct > Oct 27

                         Re: Gordon Cooper - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 02:39:14 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 07:43:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Ledger


>From: Jim Oberg <joberg.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 17:37:44 -0500
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 08:20:38 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg

>>The reader concerned with the real history of this ufological
>>brouhaha might want to visit the following URL for some more
>>reasonable thinking on the subject...

>>http://www.cohenufo.org/ocr.1a.html

>>Posner is not the last word on JFK, folks, and James Oberg
>>is far from the last word on Gordon Cooper. Special thanks to
>>Jerry Cohen.

>I have responded to Cohen's arguments at:

>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UFORL/message/1778

>but this is all a diversion from the primary question:

>Has anybody ever ordered their own copy of 'the report that
>Cooper says doesn't exist' from the Blue Book section of the
>National Archives?

>Does anybody intend to?


I'll order it Jim. Is it available to a Canadian? How much,
incidentally?


Don Ledger








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             Re: Franz' Mexican Air Force FLIR Video Transcript

From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 00:26:11 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 07:45:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Franz' Mexican Air Force FLIR Video Transcript


>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 18:22:36 -0600
>Subject: Franz' Mexican Air Force FLIR Video Transcript

Hello all,

The Mexican Air Force FLIR video transcript including
translation and timing parts 1 to 10 is finished.

Voice identification in this transcript is very difficult. We
don't have any certainty that the persons involved and marked in
this communications transcript as V1, V2, V3, V4, etc.. are
corresponding exactly to specific persons. I apologize for any
inconvenience that this may cause.

A cut of about three hours in the video from 13:29:11 local time
to 16:42:20 may indicate the landing of the airplane and the
replacement of some of the crew members. Further analysis may be
needed as there are voices and names that do not correspond to
the three original names of the crew members in the news
interview.

Mexican Air Force FLIR Video Transcript:

http://www.alcione.org/CAMPECHE/

Videos recorded by myself Sept. 03 and 04 and october 19th,
2004.

http://www.alcione.org/CANTARELL_SEP_2004/

Regards,

Capt. Alejandro Franz
director.nul








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                      Spielberg's Black Triangular UFO?

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 04:54:14 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 07:47:16 -0400
Subject: Spielberg's Black Triangular UFO?


Lo and behold, I'm sitting here watching the 'Director's
Edition' of 'Close Encounters Of The Third Kind'.

It's a two-disc DVD with a 'Making Of' documentary on the second
disc.

What caught my ear was director Spielberg's discussing the
original design of the mother ship seen at the film's climax.
What suprised me was that according to Spielberg, the original
design was of a massive black triangular shape for the ship.

Since the film debuted in late 1977 I figured that design
concept may have been done or discussed far earlier in '76 or
'75 yet the black triangle phenomenon hadn't hit the mainstream
til the mid to late '80's.

Anyone else catch this tidbit or look into it?


Best,

Greg








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               Re: Sheaffer Slams UFO UpDates Readers - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 07:39:59 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 08:05:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Sheaffer Slams UFO UpDates Readers - Boone


>From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:02:38 -0500 (CDT)
>Subject: Sheaffer Slams UFO UpDates Readers

>UFO UpDates Readers "Incapable Of Distinguishing Logical From
>Illogical Thought"


>CSICOPian Robert Sheaffer has authored an article about the
>Mexican UFO video, explaining it as that of oil well flares.
>After reviewing the case and suggested explanations, he notes
>that:

>"By their reaction, the "leaders" of Ufology have shown
>themselves incapable of distinguishing logical from illogical
>thought, and science from pseudoscience. The lesson of the
>Mexican Infrared UFO video illustrates once again the inability
>of the UFO movement to perform critical thinking."

>The September issue of the Skeptical Inquirer, in which this
>article appears, is now online at:

>http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-09/campeche.html

Chris, just consider the source :)


Best,

Greg








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               Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings? - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 07:50:41 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 08:06:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings? - Boone


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 19:38:09 -0500
>Subject: Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings?

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 08:00:54 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings?

><snip>

>>Thanks Eleanor White, but I said 'changelings' not
>>'chanelling'.

><snip>

>Hi Greg and List,

>While not specifically changeling-related, I found several
>interesting accounts at this site:

>http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/abduct.html

>Good perspective on the abduction phenomena of which changeling
>accounts are a subset.


>Best,

>Kyle

Thanks Kyle, as usual you're ahead of the pack.

Yes, the abduction stories do contain aspects of the changeling
syndrome.

It coincides with what I'm going to have to call the 'Quiet
Children'. As I mentioned in another thread I had asked several
doctors I know about 'mutations' and how they're handled. Same
as gross deformaties and there's a 'silence' or 'quiet' amongst
physicians to protect the families. Not only that but the causes
of these deformities. Growing number caused by chemical wastes
and apparently food processing. Petrochemicals primarily. Sure
nuclear radiation but not nearly as much as chemical.

It's sort of a hush-up problem that's been going on for
centuries but prior deformities were due to genetics and
nutrition. Seems as soon as we whup one problem another one
springs up.

In the old days the churches kept these children. Now I
understand they still do and some very generous families as
well.

Something is afoot here and it's an eggshell walk for sure.


Best,

Greg








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                        Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 07:15:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 08:48:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg


>From: Jim Oberg <joberg.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:14:55 -0500
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 17:09:22 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - LeClair

>>Anyone see the "Sightings" interview with Cooper? He discusses
>>the event in some detail. I no longer have it on tape and won't
>>say what's on it due to False Memory Syndrome!! I will just
>>leave it at that. The weather balloon doesn't fit if you watch the
>>interview.

>Aaron, there's no dispute over the description Cooper repeatedly
>gave in the 1990's. It's clearly an account of a mechanical
>vehicle that touched the ground and then rose up into the sky.

>One question I would have about such an account - if real,
>presumably the vehicle left marks on the ground. Yet as far as I
>know, Cooper did not walk over and look for them, nor does he
>describe anyone else doing so.

>The disconnect is between Cooper's narrative and the accounts of
>others, particlarly Geddes, one of the photographers, and of
>Davis, who wrote the report for the Blue Book file, and of James
>McDonald, who presented the original incident to the 1968
>congressional UFO hearings without mentioning either Cooper OR
>any landing.

>The disturbing aspect of the Cooper version is that he's on
>record as making many other claims about his career that are
>discordant with all other witnesses, such as:

>1. He saved the space shuttle program from a fatal design flaw
>by passing on a telepathic warning from space aliens.

>2. His Gemini-5 capsule was pelted with meteorites and left with
>its outer hull punctured in many places as if an ice-pick has
>been driven into it (it's on exhibit at Space Center Houston and
>there are no such injuries to it - nor do any 'space debris'
>scientists have any recollection of such impacts).

>3. He reports seeing hand-held image she took from Gemini-5 that
>showed readable license plates on cars down on Earth - when the
>actual pictures from the actual camera he refers to barely make
>out city blocks and airfields.

>4. His made-for-TV narrative of Jim McDivitt's Gemin-4
>UFO encounter includes about twenty factual errors in
>a thirty second story, when compared against McDivitt's
>own story.

>5. He was passed over for command of a moon landing, he claims,
>because of 'office politics', when all historical accounts are
>consistent that he was considered not trustworthy to perform
>adequately in command of such a complex mission, and was offered
>a secondary, simpler mission to Skylab, which he rejected
>angily, and quit NASA.

>6. He exploited the popular culture notion that as an astronaut
>he was a trustworthy advisor and advocate regarding technology,
>by talking people and groups into investing more than two
>million dollars into development projects he got involved with.
>Everyone involved (including himself - he was sincere) lost it
>all. Yet no mention of these episodes appears in his
>(auto?)biography, and he was still trying to raise more of other
>people's money to the end, for new investment projects.

>These are all verifiable, documented disconnects, that at the
>very least raise serious questions about how much should be
>believed - and how much Cooper actually intended people to
>believe - about some of his stories, which were offered for
>entertainment at UFO conventions and TV shows he was invited to.


So, Sir, if I am to understand you. Gordon Cooper was first an
unprincipled panderer, rank charlatan, and self-serving liar...
actually beneath the concern, consideration, and contempt that a
rational person should have for him?


alienview.nul  -:=A6:-
   www.AlienView.net







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             Roswell Wreckage At 2nd Annual UFO Crash Retrieval

From: Ryan S. Wood <majesticdocuments.nul>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 05:48:14 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 12:31:42 -0400
Subject: Roswell Wreckage At 2nd Annual UFO Crash Retrieval


Bonus Presentations Announced For 2nd Annual UFO Crash Retrieval
Conference

Roswell Wreckage On Site!

Paul Kimball founder of Redstar Films will give a presentation
about the 1948 Aztec UFO crash retrieval. In his new documentary
he takes a fresh look flying saucer story, which has resurfaced
thanks largely to the efforts of researcher Scott Ramsey. The
film re-examines the long-held view that the Aztec story was a
fraud perpetrated by con men Silas Newton and Leo Gebauer. His
presentation will discuss new evidence that may corroborate the
story first recounted in Frank Scully's book Behind The Flying
Saucers. This evidence includes new witnesses, the secret radar
bases that the skeptics long denied existed, some facts about
Newton and Gebauer that the skeptics don't want to talk about,
and a critical look at the relevance of the alleged diary of
Silas Newton, purportedly shown to Roswell / Aztec skeptic Karl
Pflock by an anonymous source.

Paul has won multiple scholarships and awards - Paul graduated
from Acadia in 1989 with an Honors Degree in History and
Political Science, and in 1992 from Dalhousie with an LL.B. A
former Program Administrator at the Nova Scotia Film Development
Corporation and consultant for Salter Street Films, Paul co-
founded Redstar Films Limited in 1999. Paul resides in Halifax,
Nova Scotia, Canada.


A Fresh Look At General Rameys Telex of 1947 - Ron Regehr

The presentation will focus on the most sophisticated analysis
of General Rameys memo with 85% of the words clearly determined
including competing opinions. Other surprising details are that
there were two photographers of the office debris not counting
the photos of the weather officer. The exact time of day is
computed via solar angle on one of the six Ramey office
photographs.

Ron Regehr has spent a long career in aerospace and interest in
UFOs. He has held security clearances in the defense industry;
an early task was responsibility for designing the electrical
interface between the S-IVB and S-II and S-I stages of the
Apollo Moon rocket. He also developed requirements for the first
United States Space Station - Skylab, while working closely with
astronauts, NASA headquarters and his employer, Douglas. For the
next 25+ years, Regehr was an integral part of the DSP (Defense
Support Program) team, responsible for developing not only the
specifications of the DSP spy satellite itself, but also the
ground data-processing software and interfaces.


See Roswell (Plains of Saint Augustine) Wreckage at the
Conference - Chuck Wade

Mr. Wades presentation is a first hand account of a considerable
amount of debris of unknown origin, which came from the Foster
Ranch near Corona, New Mexico. Mac Brazel came to Corona to
request my father to go out to the ranch and see what was there.
My father declined. A couple of years later Mac's son, Bill
Brazel, showed some of this debris in my father's bar in Corona,
and shortly thereafter "the Government" came and confiscated
this debris. In March 2004, Art Campbell who was a presenter at
the 1st annual UFO Crash Retrieval Conference Art discussed some
very unusual parts and pieces that he has, that may be from the
1947 UFO crash on the Plains of Saint Augustine in New Mexico.
Art and I became friends and discussed sharing a "dig" at the
Plains of Saint Augustine in June 2004. This "dig" came off
beautifully. We were successful in retrieving a few pieces of
metal foil (one piece about 50sq. in., and one piece that has
two "seamed" edges), and a shard of "wax." We are in the process
of having the metal foil pieces analyzed. The results of the
analysis will be presented.


For Conference Registration:

Sign up for the conference ($169) and choose one of the
following special gifts: The Majestic Documents Book (200
pages), The Secret CDROM (complete 90 min presentation about the
documents and their authenticity), Last years Conference
Proceedings or a VHS or DVD copy of the 60 minute TV documentary
aired on the Science Fiction Channel called The Secret.

If you need more information or would like to talk with me
personally please call 720-887-8171.


Sincerely,

Ryan S. Wood

Conference Chairman
rswood.nul

14004 Quail Ridge Drive
Broomfield, CO 80020
FAX: 720-887-8239









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   Oct > Oct 27

                          Re: Gordon Cooper - Oberg

From: Jim Oberg <joberg.nul>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 08:49:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 12:36:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Oberg


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 07:15:37 -0500
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg

>So, Sir, if I am to understand you. Gordon Cooper was first an
>unprincipled panderer, rank charlatan, and self-serving liar...
>actually beneath the concern, consideration, and contempt that a
>rational person should have for him?


Let's try a thought experiment, Alfred. How much of your own
life savings would you have loaned to any of the investment
schemes championed by Cooper? Or did you? As a rational person,
in theory, would you have written him a check for $10,000 on his
sincere promise you would make back $20,000 within three years?
What do you think of the rationality of the retired pilots and
aerospace workers who actually DID so in the 1980s?

Even if you were not in a position to invest your own money, had
you been asked by somebody who was, WHAT would you have advised
them regarding whether they should trust Cooper's judgment and
claims? What would you have said?

Another experiment that can reach verifiable conclusions
regarding the credible that Cooper UFO tales deserve:

I first posted this idea in September 1998

The question we are faced with is this: how accurate are the
stories told by Gordon Cooper if they can't be verified by any
other sources?

Cooper has given one case in which his account CAN be compared
against other records, and a calibration of his narrative
accuracy can be made from this.

On the FOX TV "Paranormal Borderlands" (hosted by Jonathan
Frakes), interview with astronaut Gordon Cooper conducted by
Yolanda Gaskins, Cooper talked about the "McDivitt UFO" of 1965.

Cooper: "To my knowledge, the only thing that was ever seen on
any of our space flights - and believe me, all of us would like
to have seen something - was on Jim McDivitt's Gemini-7 mission
where they saw this glint of something metallic off in the
distance. And he reported, and nobody had it listed on the
ground, so he tried to get a picture of it. But the sun
unfortunately was glinting off of it so bright, all you got was
a glint, there was no detail of what it was. But never any
further sighting of it."

The following factual problems (in my interpretation - and I
solicit discussion) can be extracted from this story:


1. "....Jim McDivitt's Gemini-7 mission...." Actually, it was
Gemini-4, in June 1965.
              --Frank Borman commanded Gemini-7 December 1965.

2. "... where they saw...." Actually, only he (McDivitt) saw
anything, his co-pilot Ed White was asleep.

3. "...this glint..." McDivitt has given extensive descriptions
of his sighting and has never to my knowledge used the word
"glint" or any other term which would imply a sunlight
reflection off the object. He has talked about sun glare on the
dirty Gemini window, however.

4. "...of something metallic..." McDivitt has never to my
knowledge used this or any synonymous term to describe the
nature of the object's composition, he has refused to speculate
on this feature.

5. "... off in the distance...." McDivitt explicitly stated that
he could not tell the object's distance.

It was either a small object close up or a large object far off,
in his own words, but he properly has testified that its range
was impossible to determine.

6. "And he reported, and nobody had it listed on the ground, so
he tried to get a picture of it." McDivitt saw and attempted to
photograph the object while he was out of range of tracking
sites (that is, his attempt to photograph did NOT come after he
reported it and was told nobody had it listed), and by the time
he was back in contact, the object was no longer visible. This
sequence of events is completely garbled.

7. "...nobody had it listed on the ground..." Hours after the
report, ground specialists tried to see what they had records
("lists") of that might correlate with the sighting. A "Pegasus"
satellite was   suggested. Later, the Gemini-4's own booster
rocket in a nearby criss-crossing orbit was also suggested (by
me, based on advice from NORAD in Cheyenne Mountain). So it's
not true that there was nothing on "lists", but that was a long
post facto analysis.

8. "But the sun unfortunately was glinting off of it so bright..."
McDivitt has never described sunlight glinting off the object.

9. "..., all you got was a glint..." You didn't even get that:
there was no photograph of the object that turned out. McDivitt
was satisfied that the shots he had quickly fired off did not
work and he has repeatedly testified to that effect.

10. "...there was no detail of what it was...." McDivitt
described it visually in quite a bit of detail: beer-can
shaped, with an arm sticking out. Turns out, that's the same
length/diamter ratio as the booster stage of his own mission,
possibly with separation straps attached (as seen in photographs
from other missions).

McDivitt does not think it was his own booster stage.

In conclusion, I have identified ten major factual errors in
this brief oral passage from Cooper's memory. If this is as good
as his other testimony is, then the need for independent
verification becomes even more critical. Any attempt to
understand the events of the Gemini-4 encounter based solely on
Cooper's verbal description would, when compared with McDivitt's
original testimony, be doomed to failure.

I humbly solicit a rational discussion of this interpretation
and this conclusion.


James Oberg








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                          Re: Gordon Cooper - Oberg

From: Jim Oberg <joberg.nul>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 08:59:43 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 12:38:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Oberg


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 02:39:14 -0300
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Ledger

>I'll order it Jim. Is it available to a Canadian? How much,
>incidentally?

Without appearing uncooperative, I'd like to suggest that investigators
do this exercise ab initio, without input from me, so their results can
be seen as totally independent -- who knows, somebody might later
accuse them of getting 'set up' by a disinformation campaign.

Since I obtained my copy in the 1980's I also really can't tell
what current prices or procedures may be. I don't see any issue
for non-U.S. purchasing.

The images showed what has been verbally described - a desert
horizon with a white blob that under magnification takes on a
variety of shapes. But as I recall there were also measurements
of the viewing angle to successive shots of the object which
maintained altitutde and angle rate over the course of the
shots.

I got photocopies of the images. For a higher price, it's possible that
film copies, of higher quality, could also be purchased.

I look forward to seeing the results of these acquisitions.

By the way, I found additional relevant interviews. In 2000, I
contacted Fred Stoliker, who had served with Cooper in that
period. He wrote me: "Gordon Cooper, after he finished Test
Pilot School, was assigned to the

Performance Engineering Branch of the Flight Test Division....

At that time, I was the Assistant Chief, Flight Test Engineering
Division....

In 1957, the test community at Edwards was closely inter-related
- people exchanged info freely at an informal level. Cooper may
have picked up his information at that time. I do not care to
speculate on where, when,or how Cooper became aware of the "UFO"
information. All I can truthfully say is that I was not
personally aware of any UFO incidents."








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                          Re: Gordon Cooper - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:26:05 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 12:40:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Hall


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 07:15:37 -0500
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>From: Jim Oberg <joberg.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:14:55 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>>From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 17:09:22 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - LeClair

>>>Anyone see the "Sightings" interview with Cooper? He discusses
>>>the event in some detail. I no longer have it on tape and won't
>>>say what's on it due to False Memory Syndrome!! I will just
>>>leave it at that. The weather balloon doesn't fit if you watch the
>>>interview.

>>Aaron, there's no dispute over the description Cooper repeatedly
>>gave in the 1990's. It's clearly an account of a mechanical
>>vehicle that touched the ground and then rose up into the sky.

>>One question I would have about such an account - if real,
>>presumably the vehicle left marks on the ground. Yet as far as I
>>know, Cooper did not walk over and look for them, nor does he
>>describe anyone else doing so.

>>The disconnect is between Cooper's narrative and the accounts of
>>others, particlarly Geddes, one of the photographers, and of
>>Davis, who wrote the report for the Blue Book file, and of James
>>McDonald, who presented the original incident to the 1968
>>congressional UFO hearings without mentioning either Cooper OR
>>any landing.

>>The disturbing aspect of the Cooper version is that he's on
>>record as making many other claims about his career that are
>>discordant with all other witnesses, such as:

<snip>

>>These are all verifiable, documented disconnects, that at the
>>very least raise serious questions about how much should be
>>believed - and how much Cooper actually intended people to
>>believe - about some of his stories, which were offered for
>>entertainment at UFO conventions and TV shows he was invited to.

>So, Sir, if I am to understand you. Gordon Cooper was first an
>unprincipled panderer, rank charlatan, and self-serving liar...
>actually beneath the concern, consideration, and contempt that a
>rational person should have for him?

No, Alfred. What he clearly is suggesting (in polite language)
is that Cooper was a flake - -at least at a certain stage of his
career. This is news to me too, but not impossible. Oberg gave
numerous specific, checkable examples. I don't have time to
checl them but I hope someone does.

This interpretation is not impossible. I knew a certain Air
Force fighter pilot with a distinguished career whose later New
Age regurgitations became an embarassment to MUFON. Being a good
fighter pilot, or skilled astronaut, does not necessarily make
one a clear thinker. Aging also can affect memory in odd ways,
as has been discussed here on this List.

So ad hominem reactions to Oberg are not appropriate. Check his
facts.


 - Dick








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                         Re: Gordon Cooper - LeClair

From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 10:50:20 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 06:50:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - LeClair


>From: Jim Oberg <joberg.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:14:55 -0500
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 17:09:22 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - LeClair

>>Anyone see the "Sightings" interview with Cooper? He discusses
>>the event in some detail. I no longer have it on tape and won't
>>say what's on it due to False Memory Syndrome!! I will just
>>leave it at that. The weather balloon doesn't fit if you watch the
>>interview.

>Aaron, there's no dispute over the description Cooper repeatedly
>gave in the 1990's. It's clearly an account of a mechanical
>vehicle that touched the ground and then rose up into the sky.

Ok, thanks for clearing that up for me. I really wasn't sure of
your position, but now I am. .

>One question I would have about such an account - if real,
>presumably the vehicle left marks on the ground. Yet as far as I
>know, Cooper did not walk over and look for them, nor does he
>describe anyone else doing so.

>The disconnect is between Cooper's narrative and the accounts of
>others, particlarly Geddes, one of the photographers, and of
>Davis, who wrote the report for the Blue Book file, and of James
>McDonald, who presented the original incident to the 1968
>congressional UFO hearings without mentioning either Cooper OR
>any landing.

>The disturbing aspect of the Cooper version is that he's on
>record as making many other claims about his career that are
>discordant with all other witnesses, such as:

>1. He saved the space shuttle program from a fatal design flaw
>by passing on a telepathic warning from space aliens.

>2. His Gemini-5 capsule was pelted with meteorites and left with
>its outer hull punctured in many places as if an ice-pick has
>been driven into it (it's on exhibit at Space Center Houston and
>there are no such injuries to it - nor do any 'space debris'
>scientists have any recollection of such impacts).

>3. He reports seeing hand-held image she took from Gemini-5 that
>showed readable license plates on cars down on Earth - when the
>actual pictures from the actual camera he refers to barely make
>out city blocks and airfields.

>4. His made-for-TV narrative of Jim McDivitt's Gemin-4
>UFO encounter includes about twenty factual errors in
>a thirty second story, when compared against McDivitt's
>own story.

>5. He was passed over for command of a moon landing, he claims,
>because of 'office politics', when all historical accounts are
>consistent that he was considered not trustworthy to perform
>adequately in command of such a complex mission, and was offered
>a secondary, simpler mission to Skylab, which he rejected
>angily, and quit NASA.

>6. He exploited the popular culture notion that as an astronaut
>he was a trustworthy advisor and advocate regarding technology,
>by talking people and groups into investing more than two
>million dollars into development projects he got involved with.
>Everyone involved (including himself - he was sincere) lost it
>all. Yet no mention of these episodes appears in his
>(auto?)biography, and he was still trying to raise more of other
>people's money to the end, for new investment projects.

>These are all verifiable, documented disconnects, that at the
>very least raise serious questions about how much should be
>believed - and how much Cooper actually intended people to
>believe - about some of his stories, which were offered for
>entertainment at UFO conventions and TV shows he was invited to.

Thanks for 1-6. I'm not aware of the validity of the statements
and will look into it in the near future. I'm a little
uncomfortable taking part in discussions that are implying a
recently deceased person is a liar or incompetent.

Some are still mourning, and Cooper isn't here to defend himself
like he was not long ago. I always try to focus on the good
things one has done right after their death, if possible. I'll
pick back up on the discussion after looking into 1-6. By that
time, the mourning period will have been lifted and I will have
educated myself on the issues you raised.

One more thing to the List. Has anyone here interviewed Cooper
in person? I never met him. My parents say they met either him,
or Shepard in the 70s <heh>. I was a child then. Oh well.








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   Oct > Oct 28

                Re: Spielberg's Black Triangular UFO? - Burns

From: Max Burns <max.burns.nul>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:07:55 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 06:52:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Spielberg's Black Triangular UFO? - Burns


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 04:54:14 EDT
>Subject: Spielberg's Black Triangular UFO?

>Lo and behold, I'm sitting here watching the 'Director's
>Edition' of 'Close Encounters Of The Third Kind'.

>It's a two-disc DVD with a 'Making Of' documentary on the second
>disc.

>What caught my ear was director Spielberg's discussing the
>original design of the mother ship seen at the film's climax.
>What suprised me was that according to Spielberg, the original
>design was of a massive black triangular shape for the ship.

>Since the film debuted in late 1977 I figured that design
>concept may have been done or discussed far earlier in '76 or
>'75 yet the black triangle phenomenon hadn't hit the mainstream
>til the mid to late '80's.

>Anyone else catch this tidbit or look into it?


Greg, EBK, and listers.

Greg I have seen a number of FT reports - at least three -
dating back to the 50's, 60's and the 70's. If thats any help.


Max







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              Re: Sheaffer Slams UFO UpDates Readers - LeClair

From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 11:34:01 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 06:54:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Sheaffer Slams UFO UpDates Readers - LeClair


>From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:02:38 -0500 (CDT)
>Subject: Sheaffer Slams UFO UpDates Readers

>UFO UpDates Readers "Incapable Of Distinguishing Logical From
>Illogical Thought"

>CSICOPian Robert Sheaffer has authored an article about the
>Mexican UFO video, explaining it as that of oil well flares.
>After reviewing the case and suggested explanations, he notes
>that:

>"By their reaction, the "leaders" of Ufology have shown
>themselves incapable of distinguishing logical from illogical
>thought, and science from pseudoscience. The lesson of the
>Mexican Infrared UFO video illustrates once again the inability
>of the UFO movement to perform critical thinking."

>The September issue of the Skeptical Inquirer, in which this
>article appears, is now online at:

>http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-09/campeche.html

I almost forgot it was an article about a UFO event. All the,
"I'm a critical thinker neener neener" and ufologist bashing
side-tracked me. What do you all think of the comment that most
UFO photos are balls of light? True or false?








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   Oct > Oct 28

               Re: Sheaffer Slams UFO UpDates Readers - Myers

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 08:48:06 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 06:56:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Sheaffer Slams UFO UpDates Readers - Myers


>From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:02:38 -0500 (CDT)
>Subject: Sheaffer Slams UFO UpDates Readers

>UFO UpDates Readers "Incapable Of Distinguishing Logical From
>Illogical Thought"

>CSICOPian Robert Sheaffer has authored an article about the
>Mexican UFO video, explaining it as that of oil well flares.
>After reviewing the case and suggested explanations, he notes
>that:

>"By their reaction, the "leaders" of Ufology have shown
>themselves incapable of distinguishing logical from illogical
>thought, and science from pseudoscience. The lesson of the
>Mexican Infrared UFO video illustrates once again the inability
>of the UFO movement to perform critical thinking."

>The September issue of the Skeptical Inquirer, in which this
>article appears, is now online at:

>http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-09/campeche.html


Nice to know I'm part of the "UFO movement". It never ceases to
amaze me how many people will stick a label on this topic and
try to brush off those involved as nothing more than petty
cultists standing in line for their cup of Kool Aid. That, or we
we're all lumped together for no other reason than to make it
so, even when we disagree with a case.

Really, should we expect anything less? As I've said, this field
will always be guilt by association... no matter how meager the
association truly is.

Regards,

Royce J. Myers III
UFOWATCHDOG.COM









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                        Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 11:46:41 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 07:45:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg


>From: Jim Oberg <joberg.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 08:49:40 -0500
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 07:15:37 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg

>>So, Sir, if I am to understand you. Gordon Cooper was first an
>>unprincipled panderer, rank charlatan, and self-serving liar...
>>actually beneath the concern, consideration, and contempt that a
>>rational person should have for him?

>Let's try a thought experiment, Alfred.

<snip>

I'll take that as a yes, then, and that's Mr. Lehmberg, Sir.

Thanks.

alienview.nul  -:=A6:-
   www.AlienView.net







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                    Interesting News For Cryptozoologists

From: Peter Rogerson <peter.rogerson3.nul>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 18:26:17 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 07:47:15 -0400
Subject: Interesting News For Cryptozoologists


Any of you cryptozoologists on this update should find this of
interest:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3948165.stm

Is this the first fossil of an orang pendek?


Cheers Peter








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                      'Hobbit' Joins Human Family Tree

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 07:51:37 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 07:51:37 -0400
Subject: 'Hobbit' Joins Human Family Tree




Source: BBC News

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3948165.stm

10-27-04


'Hobbit' Joins Human Family Tree

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3948165.stm

Scientists have discovered a new and tiny species of human that
lived in Indonesia at the same time our own ancestors were
colonising the world.

The three-foot (one-metre) tall species - dubbed "the Hobbit" -
 lived on Flores island until at least 12,000 years ago.

The fact that little people feature in the legends of modern
Flores islanders suggests we might have to take tales of
Leprechauns and Yeti more seriously.

Details of the sensational find are described in the journal
Nature.

The discovery has been hailed as one of the most significant of
its type in decades.

Australian archaeologists unearthed the bones while digging at a
site called Liang Bua, one of numerous limestone caves on
Flores.

The remains of the partial skeleton were found at a depth of
5.9m. At first, the researchers thought it was the body of a
child. But further investigation revealed otherwise.

Wear on the teeth and growth lines on the skull confirm it was
an adult, features of the pelvis identify it as female and a leg
bone confirms that it walked upright like we do.

"When we got the dates back from the skeleton and we found out
how young it was, one anthropologist working with us said it
must be wrong because it had so many archaic [primitive]
traits," said co-discoverer Mike Morwood, associate professor of
archaeology at the University of New England, Australia.

King of the swingers?

The 18,000-year-old specimen, known as Liang Bua 1 or LB1, has
been assigned to a new species called Homo floresiensis. It was
about one metre tall with long arms and a skull the size of a
large grapefruit.

The researchers have since found remains belonging to six other
individuals from the same species.

LB1 shared its island with a golden retriever-sized rat, giant
tortoises and huge lizards - including Komodo dragons - and a
pony-sized dwarf elephant called Stegodon which the "hobbits"
probably hunted.

Chris Stringer, head of human origins at London's Natural
History Museum said the long arms were an intriguing feature and
might even suggest H. floresiensis spent much of its time in the
trees.

"We don't know this. But if there were Komodo dragons about you
might want to be up in the trees with your babies where it's
safe. It's something for future research, but the fact they had
long arms is at least suggestive," Professor Stringer told BBC
News Online.

Studies of its hands and feet, which have not yet been
described, may shed light on this question, he added.

H. floresiensis probably evolved from another species called
Homo erectus, whose remains have been discovered on the
Indonesian island of Java.

Homo erectus may have arrived on Flores about one million years
ago, evolving its tiny physique in the isolation provided by the
island.

What is surprising about this is that this species must have
made it to Flores by boat. Yet building craft for travel on open
water is traditionally thought to have been beyond the
intellectual abilities of Homo erectus.

Legendary creatures

Even more intriguing is the fact that Flores' inhabitants have
incredibly detailed legends about the existence of little people
on the island they call Ebu Gogo.

The islanders describe Ebu Gogo as being about one metre tall,
hairy and prone to "murmuring" to each other in some form of
language. They were also able to repeat what islanders said to
them in a parrot-like fashion.

"There have always been myths about small people - Ireland has
its Leprechauns and Australia has the Yowies. I suppose there's
some feeling that this is an oral history going back to the
survival of these small people into recent times," said co-
discoverer Peter Brown, an associate professor of archaeology at
New England.

 The last evidence of this human at Liang Bua dates to just
before 12,000 years ago, when a volcanic eruption snuffed out
much of Flores' unique wildlife.

Yet there are hints H. floresiensis could have lived on much
later than this. The myths say Ebu Gogo were alive when Dutch
explorers arrived a few hundred years ago and the very last
legend featuring the mythical creatures dates to 100 years ago.

But Henry Gee, senior editor at Nature magazine, goes further.
He speculates that species like H.floresiensis might still
exist, somewhere in the unexplored tropical forest of Indonesia.

Textbook rewrite

Professor Stringer said the find "rewrites our knowledge of
human evolution." He added: "To have [this species] present
12,000 years ago is frankly astonishing."

Homo floresiensis might have evolved its small size in response
to the scarcity of resources on the island.

"When creatures get marooned on islands they evolve in new and
unpredictable courses. Some species grow very big and some
species grow very small," Dr Gee explained.

 The sophistication of stone tools found with the "hobbit" has
surprised some scientists given the human's small brain size of
380cc (around the same size as a chimpanzee).

"The whole idea that you need a particular brain size to do
anything intelligent is completely blown away by this find," Dr
Gee commented.

Because the remains are relatively recent and not fossilised,
scientists are even hopeful they might yield DNA, which could
provide an entirely new perspective on the evolution of the
human lineage.


[UFO UpDates thanks /Norm/ for the lead]








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                         Re: Gordon Cooper - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 11:00:37 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 08:02:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Rudiak


>From: Jim Oberg <joberg.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 08:59:43 -0500
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 02:39:14 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Ledger

>By the way, I found additional relevant interviews. In 2000, I
>contacted Fred Stoliker, who had served with Cooper in that
>period. He wrote me: "Gordon Cooper, after he finished Test
>Pilot School, was assigned to the

>Performance Engineering Branch of the Flight Test Division....

>At that time, I was the Assistant Chief, Flight Test Engineering
>Division....

>In 1957, the test community at Edwards was closely inter-related
>- people exchanged info freely at an informal level. Cooper may
>have picked up his information at that time. I do not care to
>speculate on where, when,or how Cooper became aware of the "UFO"
>information. All I can truthfully say is that I was not
>personally aware of any UFO incidents."

I fail to see how this is "relevant." All the man says is that
he personally had no knowledge of the incident. He further
admits that Cooper might have had personal knowledge even if he
didn't. How exactly does this add to our understanding of what
happened?

(This is another example of how Oberg loves to pad his material
with worthless information. I guess we're supposed to be
impressed that he contacted this guy, even if his witness
doesn't know a damn thing about what occurred.)

Since something obviously _did_ happen, even if this witness was
unaware of it, about all I deduce from this is that people at
the base _didn't_ necessarily exchange information all that
freely about all matters.

As an example of how UFO incidents can get "erased," none of the
well-documented "UFO" incidents at Edwards, such as the Blue
Book unknown cases of July 1947 or the multi-UFO overflight
radar/visual/jet-intercept/"UFO officer" case of 1965, not to
mention the 1957 incident, is mentioned anywhere in either the
base daily logs or the base newspaper.


David Rudiak








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                          Re: Gordon Cooper - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 13:07:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 08:04:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - King


>From: Jim Oberg <joberg.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 08:49:40 -0500
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

<snip>

>In conclusion, I have identified ten major factual errors in
>this brief oral passage from Cooper's memory. If this is as good
>as his other testimony is, then the need for independent
>verification becomes even more critical. Any attempt to
>understand the events of the Gemini-4 encounter based solely on
>Cooper's verbal description would, when compared with McDivitt's
>original testimony, be doomed to failure.

>I humbly solicit a rational discussion of this interpretation
>and this conclusion.


Hi Mr. Oberg,

Another aspect of this discussion, and of astronauts in general,
regards the psychological effects of going to space.

It seems that some astronauts were profoundly affected by both the
trips to space themselves, as well as the gargantuan publicity
these trips generated for the astronauts on their return.

Since many astronauts have described space travel as a spiritual
experience, and since many of them were not exactly publicity
seekers but rather somewhat reclusive and private prior to becoming
astronauts, perhaps the spiritual epiphany and the almost god-like
admiration people had for the early astronauts combined in Mr. Cooper
in a way that made him feel like a messenger, or at least less
dismissive of seemingly outlandish ideas and theories.

You note that he invested his own money in some of the ventures. This
would suggest that he was sincere, as you assert. Yet the stories he
told to secure investment by others reveal that he was somewhat
deluded or incorrect about their specifics and conclusions.

This seeming paradox would make more sense if he was truly believing
in paranormal events...a result of his space travel...but was caught
up in the almost religious fervor afforded the words of an astronaut,
and fell victim to his own publicity.

This would make a discussion of his stories very difficult, in terms
of separating the wheat from the chaff, no matter how much wheat might
be in the mix.

Have astronauts had counseling or therapy for their post-space travel
lives? Are they expected to return to normal, even in the face of the
perceived unreality of space coupled with the unrealistic expectations
of the public as to their experiences and status?

I'm not suggesting that Gordon Cooper is a insane or a charlatan. I
think it is obvious that his perceptions are far from those of others
involved, and yet his motives seem completely sincere.

This would seem to indicate a more profound disconnect than those you
mentioned, but those you mentioned could easily result if the
experience were combined with the publicity as I described.

Another interesting note is that only the early astronauts, the
military test pilot types would have had the truly profound experiences.
Once Skylab, the Shuttle, etc, began to take regular people into space,
the elan of the astronauts began to fade. Those original astronauts are
still much-revered as the pioneers they were, however.

Just a few thoughts on this very intriguing subject.


Best Regards,

Kyle







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             Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor? -

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 18:37:02 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 08:09:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Braxton County Monster A UFO Crash Survivor? -


I understand that somewhere on the Internet, the question has
been raised (by Dick Hall?) as to the source of supposed Blue
Book Files about the Flatwoods case.

On Page 118 Frank notes that he was using Project Blue Book
T1206 Tape 15, 2000-2167.

His helpful librarian in Florida obtained a copy of the reel and
Frank did an enormous amount of work to decipher the print on
the pages... sometimes washed out.

Maybe Dick can report to UFO UpDates since he lives not too far
from the Archives.

Of course the Blue Book explanation was "Meteor"... despite all
the details showing what was observed in many locations was not
a meteor.


Stan Friedman








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                        Re: Gordon Cooper - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 20:27:47 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 08:11:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Friedman


>From: Jim Oberg <joberg.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 08:59:43 -0500
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper


>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 02:39:14 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Ledger

>>I'll order it Jim. Is it available to a Canadian? How much,
>>incidentally?

>Without appearing uncooperative, I'd like to suggest that investigators
>do this exercise ab initio, without input from me, so their results can
>be seen as totally independent -- who knows, somebody might later
>accuse them of getting 'set up' by a disinformation campaign.

>Since I obtained my copy in the 1980's I also really can't tell
>what current prices or procedures may be. I don't see any issue
>for non-U.S. purchasing.

>The images showed what has been verbally described - a desert
>horizon with a white blob that under magnification takes on a
>variety of shapes. But as I recall there were also measurements
>of the viewing angle to successive shots of the object which
>maintained altitutde and angle rate over the course of the
>shots.

>I got photocopies of the images. For a higher price, it's possible that
>film copies, of higher quality, could also be purchased.

>I look forward to seeing the results of these acquisitions.

>By the way, I found additional relevant interviews. In 2000, I
>contacted Fred Stoliker, who had served with Cooper in that
>period. He wrote me: "Gordon Cooper, after he finished Test
>Pilot School, was assigned to the

>Performance Engineering Branch of the Flight Test Division....

>At that time, I was the Assistant Chief, Flight Test Engineering
>Division....

>In 1957, the test community at Edwards was closely inter-related
>- people exchanged info freely at an informal level. Cooper may
>have picked up his information at that time. I do not care to
>speculate on where, when,or how Cooper became aware of the "UFO"
>information. All I can truthfully say is that I was not
>personally aware of any UFO incidents."


I had a number of conversations with Gordon and he is in my
documentary, UFOs ARE Real. I read his book Leap of Faith and
I admire him. But it is clear that he was gullible about some
people.

For example, he accepted Guy Kirkwood as having been an AF
pilot. Guy introduced Linda Howe to Gordon. Linda thought,
therefore, that Guy was legitimate. She used his phony story in
the first Sightings program. It took me quite a while to
convince her that Guy was a fraud.

Gordon also refers to "Dr. Dan Fry" as an engineering executive.
He had no degrees and had been a technician. One might say his
judgement was questionable.


Stan Friedman








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                       Re: Gordon Cooper - Scheldroup

From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:07:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 08:16:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Scheldroup


>From: Jim Oberg <joberg.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 08:44:14 -0500
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>Have you asked the base history office if they concentrated on
>certain boxes, or are you just stabbing in the dark for anything
>that can look 'coincidental'?

Jim, I'll save you the writing time today, I got the response
back from Edwards.

I cannot quote verbatim as emails are also private, but as you
suspected the mix-up in years was caused from missing, yet not
noticed, blocks which were ordered by date - a little eye
trickery - but toward the end of the column dates were such that
nobody noticed it.

I'm sure they will correct it somehow and include "57"

Mainly the confusion with "57" seems to be a result of sudden
but new content that was not house-kept, or put together by
date-order - probably a result of some deadline not kept.


Zero Airspeed at Full Thrust (Nov. 28, 1956)

T-38 First Flight (April 10, 1959)

One Week and Two New Warfighters (April 21 - 23, 1956)

Two Warfighters in One Package (April 27, 1956)

Triumph and Tragedy (Sept. 27, 1956)

Flying Saucers at Edwards? (April 1958)

The Ace in the Hole (Feb. 17, 1959)


John








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               HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 10-27-04

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO Research <hbccufo.nul>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 20:37:57 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 08:19:44 -0400
Subject: HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 10-27-04


HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings

Release Date: October 27, 2004



Shenango Township Two Officers Report Strange Object Hovering in Sky

Date: ?
Time: ?

I clipped a five paragraph long newspaper article from the
Lancaster New Era back in the early 1980s, while I was still in
high school.

HBCC UFO Research Note: I am looking into the sighting report
and I am asking anyone who may have information on this case
would they please be kind enough to contact me here at HBCC UFO.
Thank you, Brian

Thank you to the person for the clippings.

Clipping can be found here:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1993

------------------------

Las Vegas Nevada Either Individual Spheres Or One Giant Sphere

Date: 1997
Time: Approx: 8:00 p.m.

Number of witnesses: 1
Number of objects: 5-6
Shape of objects: Either individual spheres or one giant sphere.

Full Description of event/sighting: Well, to tell you the truth
I never really knew what I was witnessing at the time. But now
that I've really looked into the "Arizona Lights" that have been
reported alot in the last 6 years, and even a case in 1997, the
same year I witnessed my encounter, I'm more confident to share
what I saw. When I saw what I saw, I always run through what I
know about military aircraft, make, model, etc. And nothing
could match this. Being a strong believer in UFO's and
everything that goes with it, I am quick to go through every
possible instance before I make the assumption that I am in fact
witnessing something extraterrestrial. This is my encounter.

It was warm night, around 8:00 p.m. and I was visiting family in
Las Vegas, in the more residential areas away from all the
lights and signs and I was at the time a riding passenger in my
cousins truck, heading back to his house. As we came through
town I noticed 5, and later 6 bright white illuminated lights
hovering in the sky over the mountains in an arc like shape. My
cousin, didn't even notice them, my reason to that is because at
the time I was younger and I sat lower in the seat, and he is
and was well over 6 feet tall and his visual range would have
been less compared to mine due to the size of the truck and
interior. As I watched, they were just so still, absolutely
still. Not one of them flashed, or twinkled. They were not
planes or even helicopters in a hover mode, they were perfectly
still, and constantly illuminated.

But here comes the interesting part. They were in fact moving,
I noticed that shortly after, however they were all moving
together, much like if they were really a giant ship and I could
only see the rim where some lights were, since they formed and
arc. Each light was symmetrically placed and evenly parted from
each other; So I didn't know what I was looking at, either 6
smaller craft, or one LARGE craft. And by large, I mean this:
The 6 craft spanned out over about 1 mile to 1 and a quarter
miles worth of desert, and were at least 1,000 feet up. Even the
smaller ones would be large in that standard, but if you look at
the possibility it could be a giant ship, than what a giant it
was. But also, as I said the lights moved all together,- another
reason why I believe it could have been one giant craft, because
they all moved together rotating from a fixed location, i.e. if
you were to take a Frisbee and rotate around so that it was
spinning, you'd see different faces of the outer edges, so as
this object turned gently and slowly, one light would disappear
from the right, and another would appear to the left.

After comparing what happened in Arizona to my experience I knew
that there was a connection, however the daylight film of them
says a different story, for there is no giant craft, just 6-7
lights equally parted from each other.

I never talked about this such encounter in exception for one
time.

Thanks.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

------------------------

Thousand Oaks, California Round Silver Object

Date: August, 1999
Time: Around 4:30

Location of Sighting: On 101 Freeway towards Simi Valley.
Number of witnesses: 2
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Round Silver Object.

Full Description of event/sighting: This is actually two
sightings:

The First: In July, my dad, his brother, and a friend of theirs
were in the spa together, when my Uncle (my dad's brother)
noticed and illuminated silver like object up in the sky over
thousand oaks, stationary, and gently moving. He saw it, as well
as his friend and my dad, but they really didn't think too much
of it. However it did stick around for a long time below the
clouds.

Sighting Two: Two months later, me and my dad were driving
towards Camarillo on the 101 freeway, towards Simi Valley just
past Thousand Oaks, when I spotted a silver object hovering
above in the sky just below the gray rain clouds. This is how I
spotted it so easily, since it was almost rain season we were
experiencing some storms and the sky was covered in thick gray
clouds, which made the silver object stand out pretty vividly. I
watched it, and got my dad's attention who noticed it as well.
He said that it looked oddly similar to what he had seen two
months prior. It hovered softly below the clouds, and stuck
around for a bit. And almost as if it noticed it had been
spotted, it darted away and disappeared.

Thank you to the witness for the reports.

-----------------------

Fairbanks, Alaska Circular Object

Date: September 9, 2004
Time: 12:30 am-3:00 am

Location of Sighting: Fairbanks, Ak
           Department of Wildlife Management
Number of witnesses: 2
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Circular

Full Description of event/sighting:

My Girlfriend and I went out to grab something to eat, a bite at
Taco Bell. We got our food and drove North on University Avenue
then East on College Road. As we drove I happened to notice and
point out a light in the sky that emanated a glow somewhat like
a flash light being shined through a crystal. Otherwise it
looked like a normal star. We stopped at a Field adjacent to the
Department of Wildlife Management still facing North. Two radio
towers stood in front of us approximately 2 miles away. Directly
above the radio towers the light could be seen just very far
away. I thought it important to note because we were able to see
the light slowly move south of the blinking radio tower. We were
astonished at this point because the light began shine even
brighter. The object appeared to be moving West towards our
location. It then decreased in brightness and repeated getting
brighter then dim again. We sat for about an hour and a half
watching the very distant light move very slowly!

South then West towards my location. My girlfriend was getting
very scared at this point, but I convinced her to stay put. The
light then stopped moving and began to get dimmer and smaller
until it vanished completely. We sat in our seats astonished and
dumb founded for a about 40 minutes. My girlfriend who was a
staunch UFO skeptic was shaken for days.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

---------------------------

Kaufman County, Texas Mega Sprayer

Date: October
Time: Daytime

Hi Brian

I usually wouldn't send you anything that wasn't UFO related,
but I'm not completely sure if this is a jet or something else,
I'll let you decide. Nevertheless, if any of your readers have a
problem whether most of these white lines in the skies are
contrails or Chemtrails, let them view this clip. This is
definitely a switch-off, switch on sprayer. Contrails are not
made this way as you know. What's bothering me is this spray has
got to be displacing the oxygen we breathe and that's sad our
governments would allow this to happen to their own citizens.

Thought this might be of some interest to you.

Thank you to the witness for the report, pictures and video
footage.

Video clip Kaufman County Texas Mega Sprayer - Footage 7.98 mbs

To view footage:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1991

---------------------------------

McLean, Saskatchewan Farmer Sees Unusual Objects

Date: October 10, 2004 (?)
Time: Between 7:00 p.m. - 10:00 p.m. (Lights witnessed)

Number of witnesses: 1
Number of objects: 3
Shape of objects: Sparkling Light
Full Description of event/sighting: At approx 7:00 p.m. working
fields, began to shut down combine as work was completed, just
begging to get completely dark, noticed blinking light noticed
in north - northeast moving in easterly direction.

Believed to be satellite but object became stationary and
hovered in sky.

Lights seemed to be sparkling. Object would hover for moment and
then circle area. Object at times would vertically drop in
stationary position.

Additional Information:

I called the witness today at his home and he was kind enough to
give me some more detail on what he had witnessed.

The gentleman went on to tell me that it just turned 7:00 p.m.
and dark out, so the farmer turned off his combine, got out and
proceeded to walk back to his house. He could hear Geese flying
overhead so he looked up, but the man could not see the birds
due to it being to dark out. But while gazing at the sky he
noticed what he thought was a green colored satellite traveling
across the sky. The fellow didn't think alot about it, believing
this was a plane or satellite until it came to an abrupt stop in
the sky and sat stationary. Thinking this is rather odd the man
stood watching and was surprised to see the object moving in a
circular motion and continued this maneuver for sometime. At
times the object would shoot off in different directions and
disappeared. It eventually returned to the exact location from
where it came from. The farmer said, he did not know of any
aircraft that was able to move so quickly and carry out these
amazing maneuvers.

Still observing this event, the object moved rapidly again
across the sky and was gone. After a couple of minutes the
fellow started walking once again towards his home and still
thinking about the unusual sight he was witness to, he stopped,
turned around and looked up once again to see the green light in
the western part of the sky. The light/object was doing the very
same thing all over again until it shot quickly to the northeast
and at this point he was able to see a number of other lights
which were positioned around the larger green light. The farmer
did mention that the multiple dimmer lights seemed to flicker
and reminded him of Christmas lights.

The witness ended up pulling out his watch and the time was now
7:21 p.m. and he decided he had better stop watching the lights
and head straight back to the farm house. As he approached his
home the man took one more look before heading indoors. All the
lights had disappeared that he had been observing, but in place
of these lights was one large one, which he referred to as a
star-like light in the sky which he had not noticed before. This
star-like object seemed to move side to side and quiver.
Something else which he felt strange, was when the star-like
object dropped many thousands of feet he believes, only to rise
back up quickly into the same position it started from. Finally
the witness called it a night, went into his home and later to
bed.

The farmer did contact the airport to request any information on
the sighting, also to see if anyone else reported what he was
witness to. No reports have been filed as of yet that we know
of. HBCC UFO found out about this sighting through the airport
as they telephoned me.

One last thing, a neighbor who lived down the road a ways was
outside and did observe the lights in the sky that evening but
didn't pay much attention to them.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

------------------------

Phoenix, Arizona Incredible Video Footage - Three Clips

HBCC UFO Research Note: The clips Rob Kritkausky has been kind
enough to provide for us all to view are really amazing. I would
recommend everyone view the clips either on my site or at Rob's
website.

Brian:

Last time the president was in Phoenix (Aug. 19th, I believe) we
happened to document, what some have described as, one of the
more profound UFO videos of all times.

One would assume the arrival of the president would generate a
higher level of attention and readiness for anything anomalous
that might show up in our airspace.

Needles to say, when the president came to town a few days ago
for the debate, we made sure that we kept our eyes open for
anything unfamiliar. On both the nights of Oct. 13th and 14th ,
we did get some video of what was perceived to be a very large
object traveling close to our location and at what time seemed
to pass right overhead. I know you had received a few similar
reports, so I wanted to confirm the event by submitting
another. I will update you shortly with some more info/footage
on this event.

Video clip #1 Phoenix Arizona Amazing Lights 3.95 mbs

Video clip #2 Phoenix Arizona Large Object Moving Over The
Phoenix Skies 3.48 mbs

Video clip #3 Phoenix Arizona Four Points Of Light & Large Light
In Center 2.83 mbs

Video Clips can be found at:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1995

Regards,
Rob

Thank you to the gentleman for all of the clips and report.

Video clips and pictures are c. Rob Kritkausky.
Please visit Rob Kritkausky's website at:

http://www.worldblend.net

---------------------

Kaufman County, Texas Orb Around Jet Airliner

Date: October 15, 2004
Time: Approx: 3:00 p.m.

Hi Brian

I was trying to catch up with this jet when this orb showed up
and was outrunning me and I had the advantage, (I thought, lol).
This orb did some fantastic maneuvering in 2.2 seconds as you
will see on the clip I'm sending you. I'm also sending you a
slideshow of clips in case you can't exactly see what it's
doing. I didn't go frame by frame until it made at least a 90
degree turn to the left and never stopped. This all happened on
10-15-04 at about 3:00 p.m. here in Kaufman Texas.

Later my friend.

Thank you to the witness for the report, pictures and video footage.

Video clip Kaufman County, Texas Orb Around Jet Airliner -
 Footage 766 kb.

Video footage can be viewed at:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1999

-------------------------

Kaufman County, Texas Fast Moving Object Caught On Film

Date: October 15, 2004
Time: 2:00 p.m.

Hi Brian

I was taping this jet about 2:00 p.m. on 10-15-04 when this
object zoomed past. As you can see, this thing goes behind the
tree, so it's not a small object. At one point it appears to be
barbell shaped. It was mostly clear today with little wind so I
don't think it was something blowing in wind. Thought I'd send
you pictures for a slideshow to see what you think. This thing
wasn't slow by any means. If you decide to post this, let me
know and I'll send you the clip. We've all been sick for a
couple weeks here now and I haven't been doing much, but I do
have a few things for you to look at.

Later my Friend.

Thank you to the witness for the report, pictures and video
footage.

Video clip Kaufman County Texas Fast Moving Object Caught On
Film 616 kbs

To view video clip:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1990


Brian Vike
Director HBCC UFO Research
Home - Phone 250 845 2189
email: hbccufo.nul
Website: http://www.hbccufo.com
Redirect: http://www.canadianufo.com
HBCC UFO RESEARCH Newsletter At:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HBCC_UFO_Newsletter/








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Oct > Oct 28

                         Re: Gordon Cooper - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 23:21:15 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 08:25:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Rudiak


>From: Jim Oberg <joberg.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 08:49:40 -0500
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 07:15:37 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg

>Another experiment that can reach verifiable conclusions
>regarding the credible that Cooper UFO tales deserve:

>I first posted this idea in September 1998

>The question we are faced with is this: how accurate are the
>stories told by Gordon Cooper if they can't be verified by any
>other sources?

Another question we are faced with is how accurate are the
stories told by James Oberg about Gordon Cooper? In at least one
case I checked out in detail, the answer is not very.

This concerns Obergs "narrative" at space.com:

http://www.space.com/sciencefiction/phenomena/cooper_questioned_000929.html

about Cooper's claim that he accidentally
photographed Area 51 from Gemini 5 and that the film was
confiscated and classified on order of President Johnson. I
found that Oberg was right about only one thing and dead wrong
or lied about two dozen other things.

If I have the time and people are interestred, I will go into
great and nauseating detail about this in later posts. But this
should give you a good taste of Oberg's lies, distortions, and
general inability to get his facts straight:

1. Oberg claimed that Cooper's claimed photos would have been
at an altitude of no more than 150 miles "at most."

FACT: Gemini 5's apogee, or orbital high point, varied between
195 and 245 miles (as a few minutes search on the Net will
verify). Cooper said he took the photos from an altitude of 180
miles and LIFE Magazine published orbital photos a month after
the mission (from another camera) also said to be taken at 180
miles altitude. Where did Oberg get 150 miles?

2. Oberg further compounded his altitude "mistake" by claiming
the following: "Gemini-5 never got higher than about 20 degrees
on the southern horizon, barely above the mountains for only a
few seconds."

FACT: Even adopting Oberg's fallacious 150 miles "at most," this
translates into about 23 degrees not 20, even after taking into
account about 2 degrees decrease because of Earth's curvature.
Cooper and LIFE's 180 miles translates into about 27 degrees. It
could have been even higher than that based on actual apogee
figures. Further, Oberg's statement that this was "barely above
the mountains for only a few seconds," is complete scientific
rubbish. The mountains near Area 51 would _never_ have obscured
the view even after Oberg's low-balling of the altitude and
elevation angle, not even remotely close. In fact, Gemini 5
would have had to have been flying about 10 times lower than it
really was for the mountains to have limited the view. Did Oberg
even bother to consult a topo map?

3. To add even further to this nonsense, Oberg wrote, "As
viewed from his spacecraft, that would be far out near Earth's
horizon, lost in the dust and haze of the thick atmosphere."

FACT: To begin with, Gemini 5's angle above the horizon of 27+
degrees (or even Oberg's bogus 20 degrees), is not "far out near
Earth's horizon." Sheesh! His statement that the base couldn't
be photographed because it would be "lost in the dust and haze
of the thick atmosphere" is knee-slapping laughable, total bunk,
especially his inflated rhetoric about how "thick" the
atmosphere supposedly would have been. At an angle of 27 degrees
the effective atmospheric mass would only be about double that
of looking straight down. This increased air mass alone would
have reduced visibility only a few percent. This is a far
different situation from when one is down near ground level
looking _sideways_ at a distant objects such as a mountain
range, where increased "dust and haze" can become significant
factors. At sea level, there is 1 air mass for about every 4
miles of sideways view. Thus looking at buildings 20 miles away
would be looking through 5 air masses, e.g., yet unless there
are other atmospheric conditions causing poor viewing, the
buildings can easily be seen. Oberg never established that there
were any other atmospheric conditons that might cause obscuring
"dust and haze" such as a forest fire raging near Area 51, a
dust storm, or cloudy conditions. The fact of the matter is on
any reasonably clear day, the base would have been easily
visible from Gemini 5's high vantage point, despite Oberg's
absurd "thick atmosphere" claim. (snicker)

4. One of Oberg's "expert witnesses" claimed Cooper's camera
shots were taken at only 1/50th of a second shutter speed.

FACT: Cooper's Zeiss Contarex camera had a maximum 1/1000th
shutter speed, which was the only sensible speed to use in order
to limit motion blur in the direction of travel. At 1/50th of a
second (more likely 1/60th second), there would have been about
500 feet of motion blur, whereas at 1/1000th it would have been
reduced to about 25 feet in the direction of motion.

Incidentally, Oberg himself estimated that the resolution of the
photos he claimed to have viewed was maybe 50 feet, proving that
a much faster shutter must have been used. This was one of
several instances where Oberg contradicted himself and also
didn't do simple common-sense fact checking. "1/50th second" is
such a slow shutter speed that most photographers wouldn't use
it even standing still, much less traveling at 25,000
feet/second! That alone should have been a big red flag to Oberg
that something was badly wrong with his expert witness' number.

5. The same expert witness also claimed the focal length of the
camera was "several thousand inches."

The focal length of the optical system Cooper used (Questar
telescope as a telephoto) was 1250 inches, according to
Questar's technical specs. This was exactly as Cooper remembered
it too. How about that? Cooper was exactly right; Oberg's expert
witness was wrong - again.

6. Oberg had the expert witness claiming that the complete
optical system Cooper used was "a 35-mm Questar with a Zeiss
'Contarex' lens" and that this was "a 'cataoptic system' (folded
optics)."

FACT: The first part is completely backwards. The optical system
was a 35 mm Zeiss Contarex camera body with a Questar telescope
used as a telephoto in place of a usual Zeiss lens. The correct
term for the Questar telescope is not "cataoptic" but
CATADIOPTRIC. It does _not_ mean "folded optics." (All
reflecting telescopes use "folded optics.") It means it is an
optical system that uses both reflective and refractive optical
devices, in this case the primary and secondary mirrors plus a
corrective refracting lens in front. The most familiar example
of a catadioptric scope is the Schmidt telescope.

Did Oberg's expert witness or Oberg make these mistakes? I don't
know. But it is one more indication that either the expert
witness wasn't up to snuff or Oberg as a supposed
science/technical writer was incredibly sloppy with his quoting
and fact-checking.

Items 1, 2, and 3 above are either flagrant lying by Oberg or
scientific incompetence. Items 4, 5, and 6 might be considered
more nitpick errors. But they are a good indication of how
inaccurate Oberg tends to be with his "facts" and how his expert
rebutall witnesses are not infallible in their statements. Keep
Oberg's deliberate lies and/or fact-ineptitude in mind when he
tries to slam Gordon Cooper for truly trivial, nitpick-type
errors. Also remember that Cooper below was speaking off-the-
cuff in recounting McDivitt's UFO sighting. In contrast Oberg
had plenty of time to think and research his "narrative" in his
space.com hatchet job on Cooper. What's his excuse for his
"mistakes?"

In addition to these clear-cut factual "mistakes," here are a
couple of examples of where Oberg completely misrepresented what
Cooper said in his book "Leap of Faith" in order to ridicule
him:

1. President Johnson ordered Cooper never to divulge the film's
contents.

FACT: Complete confabulation by Oberg. What Cooper _actually_
said was that he asked Johnson why the film was confiscated on
board the aircraft carrier and Johnson told him that he had
personally ordered it. Cooper said he still did not know why
this was done and it wasn't until 1997 that the man who
confiscated the film finally told him it was because he
photographed Area 51. I don't know if any of this part of
Cooper's story is true (and neither does Oberg), but I can state
with certainty that Oberg lied about what Cooper claimed. (One
part that is historically true is that Cooper appeared before
Congress and met with Johnson 2-1/2 weeks after his Gemini 5
flight.)

2. Insinuated Cooper called his camera "supersecret" and that he
said the experiment was always classified.

FACT: More confabulation. Cooper _never_ remotedly suggested
that the camera/telescope combo was considered secret or that
the experiment was always classified. In fact, he said exactly
the opposite. The military implications of being able to take
high quality telescopic photos of targets from orbit was
obvious, so it was discussed _before_ the mission whether the
experiment was to be classified. Cooper specifically said they
decided _not_ to classify, and that is why he was surprised and
angry when the film was suddenly confiscated and then
classified. He also claimed Johnson told him that he personally
ordered the classification.

3. Oberg claimed that Cooper said he flew directly over Area 51
and that was impossible given the actual orbit.

FACT: What Cooper actually said in his book was only that he
accidentally took photos of Area 51, not that he overflew it.
The photos could easily have been taken looking to the side,
such as the Gemini 5 photo of the Baja peninsula on the cover of
LIFE magazine the following month taken from a similar distance,
altitude, and angle as Cooper could have done for Area 51.
Remarkably, Baja was not "lost in the dust and haze of the thick
atmosphere." (giggle)

4. Oberg claimed that Cooper would never have shot Area 51 from
the side since Cooper said the experimental protocol called for
shooting targets only straight down, even according to Cooper's
memory.

FACT: Preselected targets were to be shot straight down
(presumably the reason for this would be that they were closer
and one would get maximum resolution that way). But Cooper added
that besides the assigned targets, they were encouraged to
experimentally shoot pictures of whatever they thought
interesting. Thus, contrary to what Oberg asserts, there was
nothing to prevent them from taking side shots. What's
especially ironic here, is that Oberg in his space.com article
even mentions two such photos which he claimed to have
personally viewed at the NASA film library. One was of Elephant
Butte reservoir in New Mexico and the other was a region north
of the Salton Sea in California. Both shots would have been
north of Gemini 5's orbit, and thus would have had to be taken
from the side instead of straight down. Oberg was contradicting
himself. LIFE magazine also published another Salton Sea area
photo which clearly showed that such a photo would have had to
be taken from the side. It is also interesting to note that Area
51 is due north of the Salton Sea (by about 300 miles).
Photographing Area 51 involved nothing more than pointing the
camera further to the north (probably first tilting the nose of
the spacecraft) and shooting.

5. Regarding the Salton Sea and Elephant Butte photos which he
said he viewed, Oberg added "There were no runways, no mystery
buildings, no UFOs."

FACT: This was Oberg insinuating two things: 1) That buildings
and runways at Area 51 could not have been resolved, and 2)
Trying to further ridicule Cooper by making it sound like Cooper
said he photographed "mystery buildings" and "UFOs" at Area 51.
First, Cooper's high-qualtity camera/telephoto system was more
than up to the task of resolving the large hangars and runways
at Area 51, and thus determining whether a base was there.
(Remember, the resolution in the direction of motion was limited
to about 25 feet by motion blur. Perpendicular to this, optics
of the Questar telescope, 1 minarc resolution, would have
limited resolution to 12-15 feet at the given distance.) Second,
Cooper never suggested he photographed "mystery buildings" or
"UFOs." Here is a direct quote from "Leap of Faith" as to what
he _actually_ said regarding his knowledge of Area 51:

"Area 51 was where top-secret black-budget research,
development, and flight testing, perhaps using reverse
technology from captured extraterrestrial vehicles, was rumored
to be taking place despite official denial that it even existed.
To this day I have no idea what they were - or are - doing out
there because I never talked to anyone who admitted to working
at Area 51. .As for Area 51, I _hope_ [emphasis by Cooper] the
air force is conducting experimental flights with highly unusual
aircraft - even saucers with revolutionary propulsion systems. I
would hope we are getting that kind of value for our money and
effort, and that kind of help from advanced civilizations."

Note that all Cooper says here is that he'd heard the rumors
about Area 51, just like everybody else. He didn't know if they
are true, but hoped they were. Does anyody see anything here
about Cooper claiming to have photographed flying saucers or
mysterious buildings?

Did Oberg get anything right? Yes, he zinged Cooper on one
thing. Cooper said the photos they took were so clear they could
read license plates with them. Oberg correctly pointed out that
would be impossible. But was Cooper speaking literally or
metaphorically? If metaphorically then he was exaggerating or
embellishing for effect. If Cooper meant the statement
literally, then he was either lying or suffering the effects of
age (or maybe having his ghost writer or editor putting words in
his mouth). But I want to emphasize that this was the _only_
thing clearly wrong with Cooper's Area 51 "narrative," a far
better record of accuracy than Oberg can claim.

>Cooper has given one case in which his account _can_ be compared
>against other records, and a calibration of his narrative
>accuracy can be made from this.

Oberg has also made statements that _can_ be checked against other
records and a "calibration of his narrative accuracy can be
made" as well. As I can be seen in my abridged list above, Oberg
falls flat on his face in the "narrative accuracy" department.

Besides Oberg's Cooper/Area 51 "narrative," Listers might be
interested in some of the other screw-ball claims Oberg has made
right here on UFO Updates. E.g., several of us got into a debate
with Oberg back in Dec. 2001 on X-15 test pilot Bob White's
"UFO" sighting. A summary of Oberg's misrepresentations, lies,
and fantasy space science was in the following post by me:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2001/dec/m03-006.shtml

Among the absurd things Oberg said were:

1. The X-15 flew "straight up" at a speed of 3600 mph. Actually
it was the _horizontal_ component of the velocity that was 3600
mph; the vertical component was much less, the X-15 flying with
its nose tilted up obliquely, not "straight up." Oberg, the
self-proclaimed aerospace expert, didn't seem to know the
difference, even though this is a high school level physics
mistake.

2. He further claimed White's X-15 cut its engines at 25 miles
and coasted another 40 miles "straight up." Well 25 + 40 = 65
miles, right? But White's X-15 only reached 60 miles. That's a
math error at the grade school level.

3. In other places, he said the X-15 typically cut its engines
at 160,000 feet (30 miles) or 200,000 feet (38 miles). So which
was it, 25, 30, or 38 miles for White's flight? White's flight
set an X-15 altitude record, so it's unlikely Oberg's 25 mile
figure was correct. Where did he get it?

4. To try to explain how an ice crystal from the engine in the
rear of the plane could drift forward against the residual
"breeze" caused by the X-15's hypersonic flight, Oberg dropped a
suggestion that White maneuvered the X-15 to extreme positions,
i.e. the X-15 was flying sideways or backwards before re-entry!
This was complete nonsense, not to mention suicidal. The only X-
15 to have ever turned to such extreme positions, for unknown
reasons, was the very last one, flight 199, which also happened
to be the only fatal flight of the X-15. Needless to say, the
pilot lost control and the plane crashed.

5. "The X-15 at is high point is moving at most only a few
hundred feet per second." This was another Obergian "at most"
statement that is a complete fabrication and off by an order of
magnitude. The reason he probably lied about this and grossly
low-balled the velocity was another clumsy attempt to salvage
his ice crystal hypothesis, along with backward flying X-15.

Yep, Oberg really made these claims. Go check out the link and
see for yourself.

>On the FOX TV "Paranormal Borderlands" (hosted by Jonathan
>Frakes), interview with astronaut Gordon Cooper conducted by
>Yolanda Gaskins, Cooper talked about the "McDivitt UFO" of 1965.

>Cooper: "To my knowledge, the only thing that was ever seen on
>any of our space flights - and believe me, all of us would like
>to have seen something - was on Jim McDivitt's Gemini-7 mission
>where they saw this glint of something metallic off in the
>distance. And he reported, and nobody had it listed on the
>ground, so he tried to get a picture of it. But the sun
>unfortunately was glinting off of it so bright, all you got was
>a glint, there was no detail of what it was. But never any
>further sighting of it."

>The following factual problems (in my interpretation - and I
>solicit discussion) can be extracted from this story:

Everybody please note just how trivial most of these "factual
problems" are and remember that Cooper was making these
statements while being interviewed. When you are being
interviewed, there is no time to carefully check your facts. It
is easy to make unintentional mistakes.

In contrast, most of Oberg's "mistakes" are far from trivial. If
anything, they seem deliberate and calculated to advance an
agenda. As a writer, Oberg also has the luxury of time to
double-check his work for accuracy. So what's Oberg's excuse for
his many whoppers?

>1. "....Jim McDivitt's Gemini-7 mission...." Actually, it was
>Gemini-4, in June 1965.
>    - Frank Borman commanded Gemini-7 December 1965.

Yawn! An extremely minor mistake. Has nothing to do with the
basic narrative.

>2. "... where they saw...." Actually, only he (McDivitt) saw
>anything, his co-pilot Ed White was asleep.

Double yawn. The man used "they" instead of "he." Nail him to
the cross.

>3. "...this glint..." McDivitt has given extensive descriptions
>of his sighting and has never to my knowledge used the word
>"glint" or any other term which would imply a sunlight
>reflection off the object. He has talked about sun glare on the
>dirty Gemini window, however.

More much ado about absolutely nothing.

>4. "...of something metallic..." McDivitt has never to my
>knowledge used this or any synonymous term to describe the
>nature of the object's composition, he has refused to speculate
>on this feature.

Another nitpick.

>5. "... off in the distance...." McDivitt explicitly stated that
>he could not tell the object's distance.

>It was either a small object close up or a large object far off,
>in his own words, but he properly has testified that its range
>was impossible to determine.

Note how Oberg contradicts himself here with what he says below
when he tries to claim that McDivitt probably saw his own
booster. If that's the case, then Oberg himself is claiming
that the object wasn't small and close but large and "off in the
distance." Apparently it's OK for Oberg, but not for Cooper.

>6. "And he reported, and nobody had it listed on the ground, so
>he tried to get a picture of it." McDivitt saw and attempted to
>photograph the object while he was out of range of tracking
>sites (that is, his attempt to photograph did NOT come after he
>reported it and was told nobody had it listed), and by the time
>he was back in contact, the object was no longer visible. This
>sequence of events is completely garbled.

Yet another yawner. All I see here is that Cooper got the
sequence of events wrong, but the events themselves are correct.

>
>7. "...nobody had it listed on the ground..." Hours after the
>report, ground specialists tried to see what they had records
>("lists") of that might correlate with the sighting. A "Pegasus"
>satellite was suggested. Later, the Gemini-4's own booster
>rocket in a nearby criss-crossing orbit was also suggested (by
>me, based on advice from NORAD in Cheyenne Mountain). So it's
>not true that there was nothing on "lists", but that was a long
>post facto analysis.

Nothing wrong with Cooper's "narrative" here. "Nobody had it
listed on the ground" even if this happened after McDivitt
photographed it. The object was never identified by NASA, just
like Cooper said.

>8. "But the sun unfortunately was glinting off of it so bright..."
>McDivitt has never described sunlight glinting off the object.

Again so what?

>9. "..., all you got was a glint..." You didn't even get that:
>there was no photograph of the object that turned out. McDivitt
>was satisfied that the shots he had quickly fired off did not
>work and he has repeatedly testified to that effect.

"All you got was a glint" and "no photograph of the object...
turned out" is basically saying the same thing using different
words. Nothing definite could be see in the photos.

>10. "...there was no detail of what it was...."

>From context, Cooper was talking about the photos and the fact
that no detail could be seen in them.

>McDivitt
>described it visually in quite a bit of detail: beer-can

Note how Oberg slyly inserts McDivitt's eyeball testimony here
to try to discredit Cooper. But Cooper was talking about the
photos, wasn't he?

>shaped, with an arm sticking out. Turns out, that's the same
>length/diamter ratio as the booster stage of his own mission,
>possibly with separation straps attached (as seen in photographs
>from other missions).

>McDivitt does not think it was his own booster stage.

But Oberg does, therefore case close.

>In conclusion, I have identified ten major factual errors in

In conclusion, Oberg has taken several minor errors and tries to
blow them up into "TEN MAJOR FACTUAL ERRORS!!!!" Stop the
presses!

Fact is, Cooper's basic narrative was correct. McDivitt saw
something he couldn't identify, tried to take pictures of it,
but they didn't come out, whether or not it was because the
object was "glinting" is unimportant. Ground control could
indeed not identify it, whether this happened before or after
the photos is unimportant as is the length of time spent. Also
unimportant is Cooper getting the number of the mission wrong or
using the plural "they" or thinking McDivitt described the
object as "glinting" or "metallic."

Now let me describe what real "major mistakes" are. "Major
mistakes" are when an "aerospace expert" claims the X-15 flew
"straight up," backwards, and ten times slower than it really
did. "Major mistakes" are when same self-proclaimed "orbital
mechanics expert" can't be bothered to get basic information on
altitudes, elevation angles, and visibility over mountain ranges
correct. "Major mistakes" are creating mythical, impenetrable
"thick atmosphere" that camera lenses can't penetrate, falsely
claiming experimental protocol would not allow side shots,
citing "expert witnesses" whose testimony is obviously incorrect
or badly misquoted by same writer. "Major mistakes" are
deliberately misrepresenting Cooper's remarks, such as Oberg's
phony claims that Cooper said Pres. Johnson ordered him never to
divulge the films contents, or that Cooper said his camera was
"supersecret" and the project was always classified, or that
Cooper claimed to have photographed UFO's at Area 51 or directly
overflown it.

>this brief oral passage from Cooper's memory. If this is as good
>as his other testimony is, then the need for independent
>verification becomes even more critical. Any attempt to
>understand the events of the Gemini-4 encounter based solely on
>Cooper's verbal description would, when compared with McDivitt's
>original testimony, be doomed to failure.

>I humbly solicit a rational discussion of this interpretation
>and this conclusion.

I also "humbly solicit" a rational discussion of why James Oberg
has such a hard time being honest when he attacks Cooper (or in
other cases like the X-15 where he also seems to so facilely
invent his "facts," no matter how absurd).

Did Cooper lie in his basic Area 51 "narrative?" Maybe, but I
have yet see anything written by Oberg or anybody else that
clearly shows this to be the case. On the other hand, it is
quite clear that Oberg routinely resorts to confabulation,
distortion, and hyperbole in an attempt to discredit Cooper.
Oberg is an attack dog propagandist with an obvious axe to
grind, not some "humble" journalist trying to get at the truth.

Given Oberg's long history of flagrant spin-doctoring and
character assassination, whose "narratives" do you think would
be more believable in a court of law - Cooper or Oberg?


David (oh so humble) Rudiak








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Oct > Oct 28

              Re: Sheaffer Slams UFO UpDates Readers - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 05:23:58 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 08:30:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Sheaffer Slams UFO UpDates Readers - Connors


>From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:02:38 -0500 (CDT)
>Subject: Sheaffer Slams UFO UpDates Readers


>CSICOPian Robert Sheaffer has authored an article about the
>Mexican UFO video, explaining it as that of oil well flares.
>After reviewing the case and suggested explanations, he notes
>that:

>"By their reaction, the "leaders" of Ufology have shown
>themselves incapable of distinguishing logical from illogical
>thought, and science from pseudoscience. The lesson of the
>Mexican Infrared UFO video illustrates once again the inability
>of the UFO movement to perform critical thinking."

A real critical thinker would know two things:

First, there are no leaders in Ufology, just some damn fine
intelligent people who are very independent and tend to be the
movers and shakers by consistent contribution based upon
critical thinking and not opinion.

Secondly, Sheaffer isn't a critical thinker because a truly
critical thinker wouldn't make such insipidly stupid statements.
Especially in print where actual intelligent people might read
them.


Wendy Connors
www.fadeddiscs.com







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Oct > Oct 28

                        Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 08:05:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 11:26:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 20:27:47 -0300
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>From: Jim Oberg <joberg.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 08:59:43 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 02:39:14 -0300
>>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Ledger

<snip>

>I had a number of conversations with Gordon and he is in my
>documentary, UFOs ARE Real. I read his book Leap of Faith and
>I admire him. But it is clear that he was gullible about some
>people.

>For example, he accepted Guy Kirkwood as having been an AF
>pilot. Guy introduced Linda Howe to Gordon. Linda thought,
>therefore, that Guy was legitimate. She used his phony story in
>the first Sightings program. It took me quite a while to
>convince her that Guy was a fraud.

>Gordon also refers to "Dr. Dan Fry" as an engineering executive.
>He had no degrees and had been a technician. One might say his
>judgement was questionable.


That said, and forgetting for a moment that I could be accused
in a small way of the same "gullibility of sincerity" as Colonel
Cooper, and for similar reasons I'm betting  - the "Knowledge
Void" _shall_ be filled - it remains that Cooper made statements
that make him either bravely and completely forthright, or a
liar pandering for personal gain. Which?

I submit that Mr. Oberg is not the one to pronounce,
unchallenged, on the verity of the Colonel and that his
revelation of revisionist 'new' thinking on Cooper's character
is not born out in almost 50 years, otherwise! Moreover, it is
"news" to Richard Hall, is a failure to remember that this is
what Mr. Oberg 'does'  - debunk UFOs and the people associated
with them - and that the humble civility he professes in this
enterprise is a disingenuous presumption at best and a
disservice to truth at worst.

Cooper is a liar - or not. That's the issue after we sweep the
hints and innuendoes and conjecture away.....

Great suffering ZOT, but if you'd told me in 1965 that I'd be
defending the honor of a genuine American Hero (on more levels
than just 222 hours of space time) in 2004, you could have
knocked me over with an underhanded seed-pearl!


alienview.nul -:=A6:-
  www.AlienView.net







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   Oct > Oct 28

                US Agency Aware Of Mexican C26A UFO Incident?

From: Geoff Richardson <geoff.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 14:30:33 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 11:29:30 -0400
Subject: US Agency Aware Of Mexican C26A UFO Incident?


On the 14th October I received a report via Email from Bob
Pratt, retired journalist and UFO reporter.

The source of the information included in the report wishes to
remain anonymous but maintains that agencies in the U.S. were
aware of the Mexican C26A incident as it happened. See:

http://www.thewhyfiles.net/mexican2.htm


Geoff Richardson
The WHY? Files
www.thewhyfiles.net









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                Re: Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 10:08:30 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 11:37:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 17:46:00 -0400
>Subject: Re: Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information Project

>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 12:22:43 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>>Subject: Re: Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information Project

<snip>

>>There are alot of questions I have with this harassment concept.
>>It does seem to happen and can be documented (at least the
>>subjective effects) but most of the time it seems more like
>>demonic forces than UFOs or the government.

>We absolutely agree with you. Although not zero, the likelihood
>of direct ET/UFO involvement is small.

>My point was that by releasing information that UFO-class
>technology _exists_ erases all the denial about the technology
>used to torture people to their deathbed or suicide.

If such tech doesn't exist, they can't release info about it.

If some tech really exists and is used usually for tactically
good reasons although unfortunately sometimes it has fallen into
the hands of a few bad people who abuse the tech, then the
government is not going to announce the existence of it. It
would wish to maintain a tactical advantage. Hopefully, the good
guys would seek out and stop the bad guys using the tech because
it threatens the security.

If there are no good guys and they are simply fiendishly abusing
the citizens, then they are not going to release any data that
we can believe anyway.

I once read all the journal articles and patents about EM
influences on brains and nervous systems. You don't need to get
the government to release documents to show that it is very
possible to remotely broadcast voices into people's "minds" as
well as affect them in other ways (headaches, bad feelings). My
interest in the 70-80's was to learn about direct neural
learning or experiencing for productive purposes, but obviously
this tech can be turned to bad uses. The major proponents of the
tech faded away, I could never find out exactly why, but
suspected the negative health effects of EMF on the body was a
drawback, although some impact due to the government use and
military of these could be there. However, with these methods
proper shiedling techniques can eliminate the signal. You are
proposing that they are using unshieldable waves/fields. This is
not part of our current tech.

>As to motive, we suspect that the covert organization which is
>"doing" us is the New World Order, the oligarchy formed of the
>world's most wealthy, and most greedy, and most mentally ill.
>Within each layer of the organizational chart, no doubt there
>are many different motives.

>At the top, the ultra-wealthy want total control. At the street
>level, author David Lawson infiltrated these harassment gangs in
>the U.S. and Canada and found that the harassers are told lies
>(the target is a drug dealer, prostitute, pedophile) and they
>believe they are doing a really positive civic service that
>those pesky laws don't permit. Members are also very much
>motivated by the approval of their co-harassers. Many are losers
>who don't do well in the workplace or socially.

>That book is quoted in a ten-page review and makes fascinating
>reading apart from its seriousness:

>http://www.raven1.net/terstalk.htm

Yes, most people will not believe this kind of thing can go on.
But we can't believe alot of things, like serial murder, child
/baby rape, slavery, Satanic/cult acitvities. So although I
cannot discount your theory, it seems hard to prove. If someone
could infiltrate the gang, then they can't be all
powerful/smart, thus it seems that they can be stopped by those
being tortured. If they are so clever to do the complicated and
sophisticated harassments, then it also seems likely that they
would eventually be able to deduce that the harassed is not the
bad person they were made out to be. Are you saying that you
personally have been "hit" by a random selection or for some
other reason?

>>I would think that adequate directional EM monitoring,
>>motion sensing video recorders, acoustic monitoring, EEG should
>>be able to provide data. If the frequencies are beyond our tech
>>to monitor and can be done at a distance then we are screwed and
>>likely no one will believe you. This almost matches the alien
>>abduction problem.

>The direct attack signals are not stopped by multi layer
>shielding, and just like ghost hauntings, where sometimes you
>get EM effects and sometimes you don't, we don't get
>synchronized (with the effects) EM readings most of the time.
>Remote physical manipulation and occasionally levitation is also
>part of the syndrome, so like the effects observed around UFOs
>and abductions, this is much more than conventional EM
>technology. Much more like "psychic attacks", described in books
>like "Psychic Discoveries Behind the Iron Curtain" or Tim
>Rifat's "Remote Viewing."

I read the "Iron Curtain" book when it came out in the 70's. I
do not know how much of that book was Soviet propaganda and how
much was 'real'. It sounded neat. But I haven't seen any
spin-offs based on the tech (psycotronic generators)in that book.

Another detection method may be to monitor random number
generators since probabilities seem to shift under paranormal
'fields'.

Another shield concept that may be of use is random noise
generation over a broad spectrum.

>The advanced electronics are indeed very much like abductions.

>I'm happy to report, and this might have implications for
>_abduction_ _research_ too, that one of our members acquired an
>expensive thermal imaging camera (as used with ghost research)
>and discovered that he has two slightly cooler than surrounding
>dots on his forehead.

Has he been MRI-ed to look for implants? Are these like that all
the time or when under attack?

>We're trying to see what can be made of that, and if the less
>expensive semi-infrared cameras like Sony's NightShot will work
>too.

>** On abduction research, we know that often, per Anne Druffel's
>book "How to Defend Against Alien Abduction", abductees have
>premonitions that an abduction is going to happen. I wonder what
>would result from comparing a thermal image without the
>premonition with one taken during a premonition period. Also, a
>thermal imaging video of the abductee in bed, say, waiting for
>the sensed abduction.

>Our problem is that a main thrust of the non-electronic
>harassment is to destroy our ability to earn a living, and these
>scum _succeed_ brilliantly. They destroyed my engineering career
>and I ended up working as a security guard (still harassed on
>the job) for 3 years until I could just retire on early Canada
>and US Social Security.

I am sorry this happened. It is all too easy for evildoers to
get away with these kind of non-alien, non-electronic attacks.
Credit card fraud, identify theft and countless other evils are
too easy to do.

>>My notion is that this harassment is less related to UFOs and
>>prosaic human agents (criminal or govern.) and more related to
>>some sort of paranormal activity. Perhaps ghosts, poltergeists,
>>demons, or some unnamed psychokinetic force.

>A solid half of our torment is non-electronic and non-
>paranormal. "Gang stalking" by the networked harassment clubs
>described in the book review above, the title for which is
>"Terrorist Stalking in America". The author researched both the
>U.S. and Canada and found that these "clubs" are literally
>everywhere, and hand off a target to other clubs when the target
>travels or moves.

>Remember, these people think they are carrying out "justice"
>which the laws on the books prevent happening. The author found
>extensive "criminal record" binders on the targets, complete
>with photos and faked rap sheets.

>Anyway, that solid half of non-electronic, non-paranormal
>activity takes it well out of the "poltergeist" realm.

This is truly aweful.

>>Yes, it should be reported because of the human abuse. But if
>>UFO aliens are doing these harassing things AND the government
>>cannot do anything about it to prevent it, don't you think the
>>public would be put into a panic if the government made such a
>>pronouncement?

>No. The government people who know the full truth aren't
>panicking. Neither are those of us who are convinced in the ET
>presence.

Oh, well. We must agree to disagree. I don't know enough of the
right kind to government people to judge their mental level.
Most civilian people who believe in ET seem to naively feel that
ET is good so they will obviously not panic. But how many cases
have we read of the UFO observers PANICKING based on the
behavior of the phenomena toward them.

>> Maybe it would make matters worse because rather
>>than have a very small group of harassed,tormented people, you
>>would have EVERYONE freaking out because they could be next and
>>there is no way to stop it. How many would commit suicide then?

>Personally, UFOs are so well known that I don't believe anyone
>would commit suicide over being told they are ET craft.

Its not the fact that they are ET craft that would make people
kill themselves, its the added announcement that they are
hostile and we cannot stop them that might do this.

>>You presume the government knows and participates in the
>>harassment activities.

>Having dealt with them for years, and learning about their
>atrocities directly from the survivors of MKULTRA and other
>programs, I have no doubt they at least know about it. My world
>view is that the New World Order owns all visible governments.

I do not have such first had knowledge. I know you are right
that the government has done this in the past and this is based
on documented evidence. It would be disappointing if they are
still doing it, but I can't see them confessing it if they are
doing it now. You would need to capture one of the perps. Same
for ET. It does seem that the government knows something or at
least wants to hide what it doesn't know, but I can't say that
they have an explanation of UFOs.

>>Perhaps they either do not know what is
>>going on, or have no control of it. Why assume the worse, namely
>>that the government is the evil-doer?

>I really don't care if the visible governments are doing it or
>not. But they are accepting _generous_ pay cheques and have made
>oaths to serve and protect the public good. Just telling is to
>see a good psychiatrist when they have thousands of complaints
>on file and ample evidence of conventional electronics which can
>silently destroy lives, is _criminal_. They are _not_ doing
>their jobs!

Yes, the government likes to pass the buck or ignore problems
rather than deal with them. This is very bad. I have not figured
out how to change this and have given up.








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                Re: Spielberg's Black Triangular UFO? - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 10:44:22 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 11:38:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Spielberg's Black Triangular UFO? - Boone


>From: Max Burns <max.burns.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:07:55 +0100
>Subject: Re: Spielberg's Black Triangular UFO?


>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 04:54:14 EDT
>Subject: Spielberg's Black Triangular UFO?

>>Lo and behold, I'm sitting here watching the 'Director's
>>Edition' of 'Close Encounters Of The Third Kind'.

>>It's a two-disc DVD with a 'Making Of' documentary on the second
>>disc.

>>What caught my ear was director Spielberg's discussing the
>>original design of the mother ship seen at the film's climax.
>>What suprised me was that according to Spielberg, the original
>>design was of a massive black triangular shape for the ship.

>>Since the film debuted in late 1977 I figured that design
>>concept may have been done or discussed far earlier in '76 or
>>'75 yet the black triangle phenomenon hadn't hit the mainstream
>>til the mid to late '80's.

>>Anyone else catch this tidbit or look into it?


>Greg, EBK, and listers.

>Greg I have seen a number of FT reports - at least three -
>dating back to the 50's, 60's and the 70's. If thats any help.

Thanks Max!

Yes, I vaguely recall stories of such shaped ships going back a
ways. Glad to have my memory refreshed.

A local UFO hunter pal of mine here in Hollywood also told me
that Billy Meier had detailed info regarding triangular shaped
UFOs.

I'll have to do some studying.


Best,

Greg








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                       CE III Holds Up After 27 Years?

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 10:47:49 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 11:40:53 -0400
Subject: CE III Holds Up After 27 Years?


After 27 years how does this most famous of UFO movies hold up?

Considering we know more about UFOs today does the film still
have that pizazz?

I for one am stunned at how well it covers so many areas. I
guess it's one of those films that can't be re-made because of
the acting charm.

So for all of you who've been in the trenches the question is
posed.


Best,

Greg








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                    Re: NY Times Betty Hill Obit - Warren

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 08:51:00 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 11:44:59 -0400
Subject: Re: NY Times Betty Hill Obit - Warren


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 10:42:25 EDT
>Subject: NY Times Betty Hill Obit

>NY Times Betty Hill Obit... You Be The Judge

>Source: The New York Times

>http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/23/national/23hill.html?ex=3D1099195200&en=
=3De4d7a7dba1c791ab&ei=3D5006&partner=3DALTAVISTA1

>October 23, 2004

>Betty Hill, 85, Figure in Alien Abduction Case, Dies

>By Margalit Fox


<snip>


Hello Listers,

My response to Mrs. Fox:

Dear Mrs. Fox,

In reading your piece on Betty Hill and her unfortunate passing,
found here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/23/national/23hill.html

I felt compelled to bring to light some items you omitted in
describing their so-called "Western narrative". In "your"
account of their experience (Betty as well as her husband
Barney), you wrote:

"they saw a light that seemed to grow larger and larger. Back
home, they found what appeared to be shiny spots on the car's
exterior. They could not account for a two-hour segment of their
trip.

The Hills later saw a psychiatrist, who put them under hypnosis.
Gradually, a narrative of the couple's lost hours emerged. They
recounted many times that a group of short gray-skinned beings
stopped their car and took them aboard a waiting spaceship.
There, the Hills said, they were subjected to rigorous medical
examinations that included inserting a long needle into Mrs.
Hill's navel."

Your extremely short version of the events that occurred on
Sept. 19, 1961 for those who aren't familiar with the Hill case
certainly leaves much to the imagination. Highlighting missing
time, seeing a psychiatrist and undergoing hypnosis without
filling in "all that happened" that night certainly makes it
more plausible to the average reader, (in my view), that their
experience might have been concocted out the sub-conscious minds
as the readers of some novel with a "Western narrative spin" if
you will.

What you omitted however, would certainly give the reader a
broader view of the facts, and allow said reader to draw their
own conclusions from a more complete picture of the events,
which the Hills experienced so many years ago. In a letter,
written on Sept. 26, 1961, describing their experience, Betty
Hill wrote:

" . . . About midnight on Sept. 20th we were driving in a
National Forest Area, in the White Mountains in N.H. This is a
desolate uninhabited area. At first we noticed a bright object
in the sky, which seemed to be moving rapidly. We stopped our
car to observe it more closely with our binoculars. Suddenly it
reversed it flight from the north to the southwest and appeared
to be flying in a very erratic pattern. As we continued driving
and then stopping to watch it, we observed the following flight
pattern: the object was spinning and appeared to be lighted only
on one side, which gave it a twinkling effect.

As it approached our car we stopped again. As it hovered in the
air in front of us, it appeared to be pancake in shape, ringed
with windows in front through which we could see bright blue-
white lights. Suddenly, two red lights appeared on each side. By
this time my husband was standing in the road, watching closely.
He saw wings protrude on each side and the red lights were on
the wing tips.

As it glided closer he was able to see inside the object, but
not to closely. He did see several figures scurrying about as
though they were making some hurried type of preparation. One
figure was observing us through the windows. From the distance
this was seen, the figures seemed to be about the size of a
pencil [held at arms length], and seemed to be dressed in some
type of shiny black uniform.

At this point my husband became shocked and got back into the
car, in a hysterical condition, laughing and repeating that they
were going to capture us. He started driving the car=97the motor
had been left running. As we started to move we heard several
buzzing or beeping sounds, which seemed to be striking the trunk
of our car.

We did not observe this object leaving, but we did not see it
again, although about 30 miles south we were again bombarded by
those same beeping sounds.

The next day we made a report to an Air Force officer who seemed
interested in the wings and the red lights. We did not report my
husband's observation of the interior as seems to be too
fantastic to be true.

At this time we are searching for any clue that might be helpful
to my husband, in recalling whatever it was he saw that caused
him to panic. Every attempt to recall leaves him very
frightened. This flying object was at least as large as a four
motor plane, its flight was noiseless and the light from the
interior did not reflect on the ground. There does not appear to
be any damage on our car from the beeping sounds.

We both have been quite frightened by this experience, but
fascinated. We feel a compelling urge to return to the spot
where this occurred in the hope that we may again come in
contact with this object. We realize this possibility is slight
and we should, however, have more recent information regarding
developments in the last six years..."

The afore mentioned account given by Betty was written just 5
days after the event while everything was fresh in her mind.
Most importantly these events occurred in a "conscious state, "
and weren't not part of their missing time period, and or
recalled under hypnosis.

You mentioned that the Hills "later saw a psychiatrist," but
failed to mention that this took place "years later" after
experiencing ongoing physical and psychological problems from
their horrifying ordeal.

I think it significant to note that the Hills made a report to
"Pease Air Force Base," (the next day) which provoked great
interest; consequently that report prepared by Major Paul W.
Henderson, was then forwarded to Project Blue Book at Wright
Patterson Air Force Base. The Hills' report of their encounter,
along with all Project Blue Files are now housed at the National
Archives and Records Administration in College Park, MD.

One month after the event, Walter Webb on the staff of the
"Hayden Planetarium" at Boston, as well as a member of the
Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory in Cambridge, MA
interviewed the Hills for 6 hours on behalf of the National
Investigations Committee On Aerial Phenomenon (NICAP) to which
he was a scientific advisor, and part time field investigator.
After the Hills recounted their experience to Webb, he wrote in
his report the following:

"It is the opinion of this investigator, after questioning these
people for over 6 hours and studying their reactions and their
personalities during that time, that they were telling the
truth, and the incident occurred exactly as reported... Although
their occupations do not especially qualify the witnesses as
trained scientific observers, I was impressed by their
intelligence, apparent honesty, and obvious desire to get at the
facts and to underplay the more sensational aspects of the
sighting..."

There are many more examples of credentialed individuals echoing
the sentiments of Mr. Webb; the synopsis being that these were
very intelligent, educated respected individuals without
ulterior motives, whose only desire was to learn just what
happened to them that night while driving home. All of this was
derived from "conscious events."

The hypnosis you referred to was conducted over two years later
by noted psychiatrist and neurologist, "Dr. Benjamin Simon."
Simon wrote the introduction to Fuller's book, "Interrupted
Journey." In it he wrote:

"...To me the story is a partial documentation of fascinating
human experience in an unusual setting connected with what are
popularly called 'Unidentified Flying Objects...'"

Fuller writes, "Dr. Simon was convinced that the Hills were not
lying, not psychotic, and were not hallucinating."

So in the end Mrs. Fox, in looking at a broader picture of the
facts surrounding the events which occurred, obviously there is
much more to the Hills' story then just some imaginative
concoction with a "Western narrative" instigated by "Cold War"
fears of the time.


Respectfully,

Frank Warren








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               Re: Spielberg's Black Triangular UFO? - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:53:13 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:08:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Spielberg's Black Triangular UFO? - Ledger


>From: Max Burns <max.burns.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:07:55 +0100
>Subject: Re: Spielberg's Black Triangular UFO?

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 04:54:14 EDT
>>Subject: Spielberg's Black Triangular UFO?

>>Lo and behold, I'm sitting here watching the 'Director's
>>Edition' of 'Close Encounters Of The Third Kind'.

>>It's a two-disc DVD with a 'Making Of' documentary on the
>>second disc.

>>What caught my ear was director Spielberg's discussing the
>>original design of the mother ship seen at the film's climax.
>>What suprised me was that according to Spielberg, the original
>>design was of a massive black triangular shape for the ship.

>>Since the film debuted in late 1977 I figured that design
>>concept may have been done or discussed far earlier in '76 or
>>'75 yet the black triangle phenomenon hadn't hit the mainstream
>>til the mid to late '80's.

>>Anyone else catch this tidbit or look into it?

>Greg, EBK, and listers.

>Greg I have seen a number of FT reports - at least three -
>dating back to the 50's, 60's and the 70's. If thats any help.

I have one RCMP report of a family who watched one maneuver over
the Minas Basin [head of the Bay of Fundy] on a crisp, clear
night, December 3, 1973. It was described as a broadbased
triangle with green changing to blue lights around the base of
the object. They watched it for some 15 minutes before calling
the mounties.

From: Maritime UFO Files [1998] Pg.99


Don Ledger








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             Re: Spielberg's Black Triangular UFO? - Richardson

From: Geoff Richardson <geoff.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:51:31 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:14:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Spielberg's Black Triangular UFO? - Richardson


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 10:44:22 EDT
>Subject: Re: Spielberg's Black Triangular UFO?

>>From: Max Burns <max.burns.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:07:55 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Spielberg's Black Triangular UFO?

<snip>

>I'll have to do some studying.

The history of "Black Triangles" plus a regularly updated data
base of sightings is available at:

http://www.thewhyfiles.net/trianlge.htm

See also - "V-Shaped craft"


Geoff Richardson
www.thewhyfiles.net









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                          Re: Gordon Cooper - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 15:53:08 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:17:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Hall


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 08:05:08 -0500
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

<snip>

>Cooper is a liar - or not. That's the issue after we sweep the
>hints and innuendoes and conjecture away.....

Only in your black and white universe, Mr. Lehmberg.
Gullibility, memory decay, and the other reasonable hypotheses
suggested do not make Cooper a liar. Nor is it either-or hero or
fraud. Oberg (er, Mr. Oberg) presented some allegedly factual
things that strongly suggest memory problems and/or poor
judgment. These are checkable claims. Reasonable discussion does
not warrant ad hominem attacks.

In a separate post, David Rudiak makes a number of very
reasonable sounding criticisms of Mr. Oberg's claims which I
hope he (Oberg) will answer. Too bad Rudaik did not stop with
his rather impressive critiqiue of Oberg's claims and avoid the
unnecessary name calling, particularly `liar' which he
alternately charged outright and suggested alternative
interpretations for the alleged misstatements or factual errors.
That only detracts from his arguments and degrades the
discussion.

>Great suffering ZOT, but if you'd told me in 1965 that I'd be
>defending the honor of a genuine American Hero (on more levels
>than just 222 hours of space time) in 2004, you could have
>knocked me over with an underhanded seed-pearl!

Nowhere do I see anybody attacking Cooper's honor. Straw man
argument.


 - Dick








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               Re: CE III Holds Up After 27 Years? - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 10:57:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:20:31 -0400
Subject: Re: CE III Holds Up After 27 Years? - Lehmberg


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 10:47:49 EDT
>Subject: CE III Holds Up After 27 years?

>After 27 years how does this most famous of UFO movies hold up?

>Considering we know more about UFOs today does the film still
>have that pizazz?

>I for one am stunned at how well it covers so many areas. I
>guess it's one of those films that can't be re-made because of
>the acting charm.

>So for all of you who've been in the trenches the question is
>posed.

I'd sure welcome a sequel... Roy Neery coming back to tell us
what it was, what it means, and how it works.....




alienview.nul  -:=A6:-
   www.AlienView.net









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              Re: US Agency Aware Of Mexican C26A UFO Incident?

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 15:58:44 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:21:57 -0400
Subject: Re: US Agency Aware Of Mexican C26A UFO Incident?


>From: Geoff Richardson <geoff.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 14:30:33 +0100
>Subject: US Agency Aware Of Mexican C26A UFO Incident?

>On the 14th October I received a report via Email from Bob
>Pratt, retired journalist and UFO reporter.

>The source of the information included in the report wishes to
>remain anonymous but maintains that agencies in the U.S. were
>aware of the Mexican C26A incident as it happened. See:

>http://www.thewhyfiles.net/mexican2.htm

Not surprising at all that the U.S. DEA would be tracking this
event. That, of course, makes this a prime target for an FOIA
request. Who is going to do that?


 - Dick








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              Re: Spielberg's Black Triangular UFO? - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 11:18:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:23:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Spielberg's Black Triangular UFO? - Lehmberg


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:53:13 -0300
>Subject: Re: Spielberg's Black Triangular UFO?

>>From: Max Burns <max.burns.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:07:55 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Spielberg's Black Triangular UFO?

<snip>

>>Greg I have seen a number of FT reports - at least three -
>>dating back to the 50's, 60's and the 70's. If thats any help.

>I have one RCMP report of a family who watched one maneuver over
>the Minas Basin [head of the Bay of Fundy] on a crisp, clear
>night, December 3, 1973. It was described as a broadbased
>triangle with green changing to blue lights around the base of
>the object. They watched it for some 15 minutes before calling
>the mounties.

>From: Maritime UFO Files [1998] Pg.99


Don -

Linda Howe had some new things to say vis a vis Shag Harbor on
Strieber's last Saturday show... did you have a chance to review
it?

alienview.nul  -:=A6:-
   www.AlienView.net








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                         Re: Gordon Cooper - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 13:21:32 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:26:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Ledger


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 20:27:47 -0300
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>From: Jim Oberg <joberg.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 08:59:43 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

<snip>

>I had a number of conversations with Gordon and he is in my
documentary, UFOs ARE Real. I read his book Leap of Faith and I
admire him. But it is clear that he was gullible about some
people.

>For example, he accepted Guy Kirkwood as having been an AF
>pilot. Guy introduced Linda Howe to Gordon. Linda thought,
>therefore, that Guy was legitimate. She used his phony story in
>the first Sightings program. It took me quite a while to
>convince her that Guy was a fraud.

>Gordon also refers to "Dr. Dan Fry" as an engineering
>executive. He had no degrees and had been a technician. One
>might say his judgement was questionable.

Stan, Jim,

Even the movie from the  book The Right Stuff portray Cooper as
a maverick. Can I suggest that  Cooper's resigning after being
offered Sky Lab instead of a Moon mission was more in keeping
with his inability to put up with NASA's BS and that
organization's using these missions as a club to beat the
astronauts into submission. Could it be that Cooper wouldn't
play the political game, i.e. being controlled by those who
didn't have to hang their asses over the edge. The latest
Columbia disaster comes to mind or the MIR missions.

Many suffer from gullibility. Being an astronaut doesn't make
you immune.


Don Ledger








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               Re: Sheaffer Slams UFO UpDates Readers - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 13:43:32 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:20:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Sheaffer Slams UFO UpDates Readers - Ledger


>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates <UFOUpdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 05:23:58 -0600
>Subject: Re: Sheaffer Slams UFO UpDates Readers

>>From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:02:38 -0500 (CDT)
>>Subject: Sheaffer Slams UFO UpDates Readers

>>CSICOPian Robert Sheaffer has authored an article about the
>>Mexican UFO video, explaining it as that of oil well flares.
>>After reviewing the case and suggested explanations, he notes
>>that:


>>"By their reaction, the "leaders" of Ufology have shown
>>themselves incapable of distinguishing logical from illogical
>>thought, and science from pseudoscience. The lesson of the
>>Mexican Infrared UFO video illustrates once again the inability
>>of the UFO movement to perform critical thinking."

>A real critical thinker would know two things:

>First, there are no leaders in Ufology, just some damn fine
>intelligent people who are very independent and tend to be the
>movers and shakers by consistent contribution based upon
>critical thinking and not opinion.

>Secondly, Sheaffer isn't a critical thinker because a truly
>critical thinker wouldn't make such insipidly stupid statements.
>Especially in print where actual intelligent people might read
>them.

>Wendy Connors
>www.fadeddiscs.com

Hi Wendy,

I was going to jump in on this but you said it all in fewer
words than I could.

Sheaffer didn't even get the details straight re Capt. Frans, an
ally on this matter.


Don Ledger










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                    Re: NY Times Betty Hill Obit - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:59:02 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:22:45 -0400
Subject: Re: NY Times Betty Hill Obit - Boone


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 08:51:00 -0700
>Subject: Re: NY Times Betty Hill Obit

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 10:42:25 EDT
>>Subject: NY Times Betty Hill Obit

>>NY Times Betty Hill Obit... You Be The Judge

>>Source: The New York Times

>>http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/23/national/23hill.html?ex=1099195200&en=e4d7a7
dba1c791ab&ei=5006&partner=ALTAVISTA1

>>October 23, 2004

>>Betty Hill, 85, Figure in Alien Abduction Case, Dies

>>By Margalit Fox

<snip>

>One month after the event, Walter Webb on the staff of the
>"Hayden Planetarium" at Boston, as well as a member of the
>Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory in Cambridge, MA
>interviewed the Hills for 6 hours on behalf of the National
>Investigations Committee On Aerial Phenomenon (NICAP) to which
>he was a scientific advisor, and part time field investigator.
>After the Hills recounted their experience to Webb, he wrote in
>his report the following:

>"It is the opinion of this investigator, after questioning these
>people for over 6 hours and studying their reactions and their
>personalities during that time, that they were telling the
>truth, and the incident occurred exactly as reported... Although
>their occupations do not especially qualify the witnesses as
>trained scientific observers, I was impressed by their
>intelligence, apparent honesty, and obvious desire to get at the
>facts and to underplay the more sensational aspects of the
>sighting..."

>There are many more examples of credentialed individuals echoing
>the sentiments of Mr. Webb; the synopsis being that these were
>very intelligent, educated respected individuals without
>ulterior motives, whose only desire was to learn just what
>happened to them that night while driving home. All of this was
>derived from "conscious events."

>The hypnosis you referred to was conducted over two years later
>by noted psychiatrist and neurologist, "Dr. Benjamin Simon."
>Simon wrote the introduction to Fuller's book, "Interrupted
>Journey." In it he wrote:

>"...To me the story is a partial documentation of fascinating
>human experience in an unusual setting connected with what are
>popularly called 'Unidentified Flying Objects...'"

>Fuller writes, "Dr. Simon was convinced that the Hills were not
>lying, not psychotic, and were not hallucinating."

>So in the end Mrs. Fox, in looking at a broader picture of the
>facts surrounding the events which occurred, obviously there is
>much more to the Hills' story then just some imaginative
>concoction with a "Western narrative" instigated by "Cold War"
>fears of the time.


Well said Frank Warren! You sure put Ms. Fox in check!

If you notice, the professionals from the fields whose standards
are used by the government and the press to establish
credibility validate the Hill's story and character.

Yet that's all tossed out the window by some media person who
for some reason knows more than the experts.

In retrospect I'm glad I got out of mainstream news years ago. I
recall it was full of so many mobsters, intelligence agents,
spies, hoodlums and strongarms than any other business outside
of the movie industry.

Our enemies in ufology are the same as the rest of the world,
irresponsible journalism and media manipulation.

Doesn't Mr. Stanton Friedman have a catch phrase that goes,

"Don't bother me with the facts, my mind's made up!"

That he uses to describe his ongoing antagonists "The Nasty
Noisy Negativists" .


Best,

Greg








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               Re: Spielberg's Black Triangular UFO? - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 14:04:39 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:26:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Spielberg's Black Triangular UFO? - Ledger


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 10:44:22 EDT
>Subject: Re: Spielberg's Black Triangular UFO?

>>From: Max Burns <max.burns.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:07:55 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Spielberg's Black Triangular UFO?

>>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 04:54:14 EDT
>>Subject: Spielberg's Black Triangular UFO?

>>>Lo and behold, I'm sitting here watching the 'Director's
Edition' of 'Close Encounters Of The Third Kind'.

>>>It's a two-disc DVD with a 'Making Of' documentary on the second disc.

>>>What caught my ear was director Spielberg's discussing the
>>>original design of the mother ship seen at the film's climax.
>>>What suprised me was that according to Spielberg, the original
>>>design was of a massive black triangular shape for the ship.


>>>Since the film debuted in late 1977 I figured that design
>>>concept may have been done or discussed far earlier in '76 or
>>>'75 yet the black triangle phenomenon hadn't hit the mainstream
>>>til the mid to late '80's.

>>>Anyone else catch this tidbit or look into it?

>>Greg, EBK, and listers.

>>Greg I have seen a number of FT reports - at least three -
>>dating back to the 50's, 60's and the 70's. If thats any help.

>Thanks Max!

>Yes, I vaguely recall stories of such shaped ships going back a
>ways. Glad to have my memory refreshed.

>A local UFO hunter pal of mine here in Hollywood also told me
<that Billy Meier had detailed info regarding triangular shaped
>UFOs.

>I'll have to do some studying.

Greg, you had better read up on Billy Meier while you are at it.
He's considered a hoaxter by many researchers including your's
truly.


Don Ledger








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              Re: Sheaffer Slams UFO UpDates Readers - Yturria

From: Santiago Yturria <syturria.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:28:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:28:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Sheaffer Slams UFO UpDates Readers - Yturria


>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates <UFOUpdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 05:23:58 -0600
>Subject: Re: Sheaffer Slams UFO UpDates Readers

>>From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:02:38 -0500 (CDT)
>>Subject: Sheaffer Slams UFO UpDates Readers

>>CSICOPian Robert Sheaffer has authored an article about the
>>Mexican UFO video, explaining it as that of oil well flares.
>>After reviewing the case and suggested explanations, he notes
>>that:

>>"By their reaction, the "leaders" of Ufology have shown
>>themselves incapable of distinguishing logical from illogical
>>thought, and science from pseudoscience. The lesson of the
>>Mexican Infrared UFO video illustrates once again the inability
>>of the UFO movement to perform critical thinking."

>A real critical thinker would know two things:

>First, there are no leaders in Ufology, just some damn fine
>intelligent people who are very independent and tend to be the
>movers and shakers by consistent contribution based upon
>critical thinking and not opinion.

>Secondly, Sheaffer isn't a critical thinker because a truly
>critical thinker wouldn't make such insipidly stupid statements.
>Especially in print where actual intelligent people might read
>them.

I agree with you Wendy, but most important to mention is the
fact that Sheaffer in complicity with John Lester Miller who
falsified the March 5 ,2004 meteorological conditions report for
the Campeche area in order to explain and justify the object's
invisibility to the C26A crew.

Quoting Lester Miller statements:

"These images were viewed though one of the worst atmospheric
conditions possible. Hot, humid, and partly cloudy at a land and
sea interface, during the thermal instability of sunset or
sunrise. This represents one of the most difficult atmospheric
conditions for accurate imaging. These conditions seriously
impair the quality of the images in the visible and even reduce
the quality in the infrared. In these stressing atmospherics, it
is no surprise that there was nothing visible to the eye and the
images are blurred and altered in the infrared. The smaller
images below the main images could be reflections from water or
ground (common in the infrared) or even mirages. All of these
phenomena are typically observed in such conditions. The bending
of the light in the atmosphere going though multiple dynamic
layers of varying indexes of refractions also call into question
the angular indications."

This report is false and complemented with fallacies. The
authentic official meteorological report was presented on
national television on May 16, 2004 by Mr. Humberto Hernandez
Unzon, sub-manager of the mexican official agency Servicios
Meteorologicos Nacionales. According to the report the
meteorological conditions were perfect that day. I published
this information on May 18, 2004. See:

http://www.rense.com/general53/emem.htm

John Lester Miller not only lied about the atmospheric
conditions but also concluded saying this:

"The supposed radar UFOs were in the opposite direction, ahead
of the aircraft. Some of them were probably trucks on the
Yucatan Highway."

This statement is so naive that it don't deserves my comment.

I find ironic that Sheaffer tried to deceive his own skeptic
collagues at CSICOP presenting this report based on false facts.
Certainly an embarrasing issue inside the skeptic community.


Santiago








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                          Re: Gordon Cooper - Oberg

From: Jim Oberg <joberg.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:31:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:30:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Oberg


>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul>
>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 23:21:15 -0700
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Rudiak

>Given Oberg's long history of flagrant spin-doctoring and
>character assassination, whose "narratives" do you think would
>be more believable in a court of law - Cooper or Oberg?

I'm grateful to Mr. Rudiak's fact-checking and identification of
mis-statements and careless mis-estimations, which are useful to
push my own arguments closer toward full accuracy. It is an
iterative process.

Now, let's keep out eyes on the ball and not be distracted -
what is there about Cooper's testimony that makes it worthy of
belief? How does it help us better understand the UFO
phenomenon?

And when - ever - have the UFO stories associated with his name
ever met Hynek's Criterion for a usable UFO report: a report of
unusual aerial apparition that has no apparent prosaic
explanation even after careful examination by experienced
investigators.

As we've seen, no such examination has ever occurred except my
own (well, perhaps James McDonald can be added to the short
list, but he found no landing) - and the hostility of many
enthusiasts to anyone making such examinations is an evident
factor in dissuading such a process. So perhaps we've seen
another case of what I call the 'Celebrity Exemption': if a UFO
story is associated with a famous person, it is too useful for
propaganda purposes to risk tarnishing it with a thorough
investigation, lest it lose value as a PR gimmick.


Jim Oberg







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                          Secrecy News -- 10/28/04

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 13:16:43 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:32:32 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 10/28/04


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 94
October 28, 2004


**      HAS THE INTEL BUDGET TOTAL EVER BEEN "PUBLICLY IDENTIFIED"?
**      NITZE: MASTER OF THE GAME
**      STEM CELL RESEARCH (CRS)
**      WEIRD SCIENCE: TELEPORTATION PHYSICS


HAS THE INTEL BUDGET TOTAL EVER BEEN "PUBLICLY IDENTIFIED"?

A three year old Freedom of Information Act lawsuit seeking
disclosure of historical intelligence budget figures from 1947
to 1970 has bogged down into a semantic dispute over whether the
intelligence budget total has ever been "publicly identified."

In a poorly drafted September 22, 2004 declaration, then-Acting
Director of Central Intelligence John E. McLaughlin stated under
oath that "The aggregate intelligence budgets and the total CIA
budgets have never been publicly identified, both to protect the
classified nature of the intelligence programs themselves and to
protect the classified intelligence methods used to transfer
funds to and between intelligence agencies."

That sentence as written is false -- aggregate intelligence
budgets for 1997 and 1998 were previously released in response
to prior FOIA litigation. Citing the error, FAS moved the court
to strike the McLaughlin declaration from the record.

CIA responded that the sentence was taken out of context and
that it should be understood to mean that *Congress* has never
publicly identified intelligence budget information.

"Former Acting DCI McLaughlin's averment ... is contained within
a paragraph that describes how Congress, not the Executive
branch, has historically treated aggregate and agency-specific
intelligence budget figures as being secret," attorneys for the
CIA wrote.

FAS replied last week with a citation showing that the 1997 and
1998 intelligence budget totals had been "publicly identified"
by Congress in the Congressional Record.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/foia/1947/sa102204.pdf

Unfair! shrieked the CIA and Justice Department lawyers this
week in an unusual surreply.

The information in the Congressional Record "'publicly
identified' nothing more than aggregate intelligence budget
figures that defendant [CIA], not Congress, had already
'publicly identified' years earlier," they told the court.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/foia/1947/cia102604.pdf

So in other words, according to government attorneys, when
Acting DCI McLaughlin used the term "publicly identified" it
must only be understood to mean "disclosed by Congress for the
first time."

It is encouraging to note that even some current CIA employees
view the Agency's handling of this case with dismay.

"I was terribly disappointed with McLaughlin's declaration," one
CIA official with relevant expertise said. "That's what happens
when there are too many lawyers in the picture trying to think
up ways to say no, even when they don't make any sense."

"Shame on you for wasting valuable government resources," said
another message. "Think of the hours all those high-priced
lawyers spent in meetings to come up with those lame
declarations."

"The judge may think you're a pest, but that's nothing compared
to what some in CIA think you are," said a third message from a
CIA official.

"CIA lawyers are pretty smug about judges agreeing with them in
info disclosure cases, but at least you've given them a run for
their money, not to mention getting this issue a lot of
Attention."


NITZE: MASTER OF THE GAME

The role of the late Paul Nitze in defining U.S. policy on
nuclear weapons throughout the Cold War is traced in a new
documentary collection from the National Security Archive, with
a thoughtful introduction by William Burr and Robert Wampler.

"Nitze's life in public service... placed him at the center of
practically every significant decision or debate about U.S. Cold
War strategy and nuclear weapons policies," they observe.

"All in all, it is a remarkable record of determined and
unflagging engagement publicly and behind the closed doors of
government with the key problem of the Cold War era: how to
respond rationally to the fact of nuclear weapons without giving
in to either despair or unfounded optimism about the security
dilemmas they created."

After the Cold War, as noted by Bill Hartung in a letter to the
Washington Post today, Nitze was willing to consider even the
unilateral abolition of nuclear weapons. Some 15 ago, he
endorsed a petition advanced by then-FAS President Jeremy J.
Stone to eliminate tactical nuclear weapons from U.S. naval
vessels.

See "'The Master of the Game': Paul H. Nitze and U.S. Cold War
Strategy from Truman to Reagan," October 27:

http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB139/index.htm


STEM CELL RESEARCH (CRS)

The use of embryonic stem cells to aid the development of cures
to various diseases has been a subject of presidential politics,
given the candidates' disparate views on the issue.

The Congressional Research Service provided a dispassionate
assessment -- for Congress, not for the general public -- in
"Stem Cell Research," updated August 13, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/spp/civil/crs/RL31015.pdf

A related CRS report entitled "Cloning: A Select Chronology,
1997-2003," updated August 19, 2003 is here:

http://www.fas.org/spp/civil/crs/RL31211.pdf


WEIRD SCIENCE: TELEPORTATION PHYSICS

The Air Force Research Laboratory has paid for and published a
new study on "teleportation physics," referring to the
disembodied transport of objects across space.

The author strives to distinguish his subject from the fictional
Star Trek "transporter" concept, and notes that "we are still
very far away from being able to ... teleport human beings (and
even simpler biological entities such as cells, etc.) and bulk
inanimate objects...."

But after fifty pages of opaque physics, he concludes with an
endorsement of remote viewing, psychokinesis and spoon bending
by psychic Uri Geller.

"During a talk that he gave at the U.S. Capitol building, Uri
caused a spoon to curve upward with no force applied, and then
the spoon continued to bend after he put it back down and
continued with his talk," he reports.

"There are numerous supporters within the U.S. military
establishment who comprehend the significance of remote viewing
and PK [psychokinesis] phenomenon [sic], and believe that they
could have strategic implications," he notes.

And he repeats a warning that "foreign adversaries could exploit
micro- or macro-PK to induce U.S. military fighter pilots to
lose control of their aircraft and crash."

Given the looming ESP gap, the author recommends that "A
research program improving on and expanding, or implementing
novel variations of, the Chinese and Uri Geller-type experiments
should be conducted in order to generate p-Teleportation
phenomenon [sic] in the lab."

The report concludes with a ten-page bibliography on
teleportation physics and a distribution list that amounts to
something like a "who's who" in "alternative science."

See "Teleportation Physics Study" by Eric W. Davis, Air Force
Research Lab Special Report, Edwards Air Force Base, August
2004, distribution unlimited (1.7 MB PDF file):

http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/teleport.pdf



_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

Secrecy News has an RSS feed at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood.nul
voice: (202) 454-4691








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                          Re: Gordon Cooper - Oberg

From: Jim Oberg <joberg.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:36:43 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:34:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Oberg


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 08:05:08 -0500
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg

>...it remains that Cooper made statements
>that make him either bravely and completely forthright, or a
>liar pandering for personal gain. Which?

>Cooper is a liar - or not. That's the issue after we sweep the
>hints and innuendoes and conjecture away.....

Uh, haven't we advanced beyond the black/white dichotomy, or the
fallacy of the false dilemma? In my own experience, arguers who
demand a 'false dilemma' are... well, I don't want to offer a
false dilemma of my own, but let's just say it's not evidence of
mature reasoning in action.

Did Cooper, or did he not, write that he saved the space shuttle
program from a fatal design flaw by relaying a telepathic
message from space aliens? Look it up in his book. And tell us
if you think the story is true, or not. Don't lie about it.


Jim Oberg







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                           Reporters Under Threat

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 14:02:07 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:35:48 -0400
Subject: Reporters Under Threat


That's the issue at hand.

Hopefully C2C will do a show or two or three where reporters and
editors will come forward explaining if they'd ever been
threatened if they covered UFO stories.

You only need a credible handful to get to the bottom of it.


Best,

Greg








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                        Black Triangles Mr. Friedman?

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 14:03:04 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:36:46 -0400
Subject: Black Triangles Mr. Friedman?


Question to Mr. Friedman regarding the Black Triangles.

Have you researched and published a paper on the subject?


Best,

Greg








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              Re: US Agency Aware Of Mexican C26A UFO Incident?

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 14:08:44 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:43:15 -0400
Subject: Re: US Agency Aware Of Mexican C26A UFO Incident?


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 15:58:44 +0000
>Subject: Re: US Agency Aware Of Mexican C26A UFO Incident?

>>From: Geoff Richardson <geoff.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 14:30:33 +0100
>>Subject: US Agency Aware Of Mexican C26A UFO Incident?

>>On the 14th October I received a report via Email from Bob
>>Pratt, retired journalist and UFO reporter.

>>The source of the information included in the report wishes to
>>remain anonymous but maintains that agencies in the U.S. were
>>aware of the Mexican C26A incident as it happened. See:

>>http://www.thewhyfiles.net/mexican2.htm

Hi Dick, All,

>Not surprising at all that the U.S. DEA would be tracking this
>event. That, of course, makes this a prime target for an FOIA
>request. Who is going to do that?

If someone who is knowledgeable in such matters is willing to
walk me through the procedure, I will do it.

There also has to be US satellite surveillance data on the event
that has not yet come to light. And you know that NORAD had to
have been tracking the "flying oil wells" long before any of the
rest of them, US DEA or Mexican military!

The truth of this incident isn't going to be twisted and made to
'go away' as easily as the usual suspect armchair debunkers
would like.

Anybody want to teach me how to file a FOIA request? I'll do all
the labor and leg work ffrom there.


Sincerely,

John Velez








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                       Re: Gordon Cooper - Scheldroup

From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 13:04:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:39:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Scheldroup


>From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:07:18 -0500
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>From: Jim Oberg <joberg.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 08:44:14 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>Have you asked the base history office if they concentrated on
>>certain boxes, or are you just stabbing in the dark for anything
>>that can look 'coincidental'?

>Jim, I'll save you the writing time today, I got the response
>back from Edwards.

I have one more follow-up to this story, I just got an email
from the Director of Base History at Edwards - if you open up
one of the articles you will find who he is.

Sorry that email address is not public and will remain private
by me.

I am told that the Base history project was not carried through
far enough or long enough to cover that year '57', not to say
that nothing happened that year, when actually if one looks at
other decades compared to it, the 50s were largely considered
busier then most even by today's standards.

To conclude that there were plenty of great moments to research
in the "Golden Age of Flight", but what we find here is a case
of not enough personnel or time to cover them all.

Thanks again to the good people at Edwards AFB for their insight
for clearing up these matters of concern with '1957', some of us
really appreciated that help. Anyone interesting in Aerospace
museums and Flight History will find the Edwards website to be
very informative.

I hope they get around to expanding the Flight History project
even more then what it is and I'm sure young people may even
find it helpful in selecting their own future career goals.

http://www.edwards.af.mil/moments/docs_html/50s-toc.html


John






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             Re: Interesting News For Cryptozoologists - LeClair

From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 14:13:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:45:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Interesting News For Cryptozoologists - LeClair


>From: Peter Rogerson <peter.rogerson3.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 18:26:17 +0100 (BST)
>Subject: Interesting News For Cryptozoologists

>Any of you cryptozoologists on this update should find this of
>interest:

>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3948165.stm

>Is this the first fossil of an orang pendek?

That came to mind when I first read it earlier today. I linked
another article about it below. It doesn't look likes it's a
orang pendek. Too human I think. O.P.s are a little bigger.

A lot of new discoveries of late. Here are some links to just
*some* very interesting finds. Sorry for the long urls. Copy and
paste them.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/10/1027_041027_homo_floresiensis.ht
ml

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3730574.stm

http://www.wusatv9.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=34268

http://woai.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=EBC8FC7B-ED5D-46A5-8DA4-3C6F6C3
1975E










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                        Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 13:31:31 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:46:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 15:53:08 +0000
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 08:05:08 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

><snip>

>>Cooper is a liar - or not. That's the issue after we sweep the
>>hints and innuendoes and conjecture away.....

>Only in your black and white universe, Mr. Lehmberg.

Come now, Mr. Hall, this smacks a little more of your irritation
with me, personally, than my inability to perceive the verity of
anything Mr. Oberg might contribute. Be that as it may, it may
be that this may be another situation where a "Republican"
stands gloating to the side because he's gotten a couple of
"Democrats" to fuss at one another. Good show, Sir.

Mr. Oberg has not been remotely balanced ufologically to date
and for years. I think you perform a disservice to intimate that
he does. But then, that's part and parcel of my criticism with
your approach, as you might surmise. Lead, follow, or get out of
the way, Sir.

>Gullibility, memory decay, and the other reasonable hypotheses
>suggested do not make Cooper a liar. Nor is it either-or hero or
>fraud.

Black and white sensibility notwithstanding, Mr. Hall, at the
denouement, things tend to fall one way or the other. Cooper was
not suffering dementia when he reported watching a UFO land and
witness footage being taken of same. He lied, or he didn't,
Sir. Attaching baggage to that needlessly complicates the issue
at hand. Cooper is credible, on balance, or he is not.

>Oberg (er, Mr. Oberg) presented some allegedly factual
>things that strongly suggest memory problems and/or poor
>judgment. These are checkable claims. Reasonable discussion does
>not warrant ad hominem attacks.

And again, Mr. Hall, I'd ask you to point out where I make that
transgression. Sneering ("...er, Mr. Oberg.") at my demand for
formal civility in a contentious discussion seems to be more
personal attack that anything I've leveled at Mr. Oberg.

>In a separate post, David Rudiak makes a number of very
>reasonable sounding criticisms of Mr. Oberg's claims which I
>hope he (Oberg) will answer. Too bad Rudaik did not stop with
>his rather impressive critiqiue of Oberg's claims and avoid the
>unnecessary name calling, particularly `liar' which he
>alternately charged outright and suggested alternative
>interpretations for the alleged misstatements or factual errors.

It may be that Dr. Rudiak has a little less problem calling a
spade a spade than you do, Sir. Or maybe he's not over
conflicted with personal issues, as you seem to be.

>That only detracts from his arguments and degrades the

I remind you, Sir, that the discussion has not progressed a
nanometer in 50 years for all the professional gentility of your
arguments. It may be time to try something different. Dr.
Rudiak seems just what the Doctor ordered, for my money, at any
rate. Go Doc!

>>Great suffering ZOT, but if you'd told me in 1965 that I'd be
>>defending the honor of a genuine American Hero (on more levels
>>than just 222 hours of space time) in 2004, you could have
>>knocked me over with an underhanded seed-pearl!

>Nowhere do I see anybody attacking Cooper's honor. Straw man
>argument.

Nonsense, Sir, your argument appears to be the fallacious one,
based as it is on an ignorance you presume regarding Mr. Oberg's
motives, motives that can be extrapolated from his past
performance. The attack on Cooper's honor and credibility seems
obvious to me and others. Oberg's 'revision' was "news to
[you]," after all. Where's the straw man there? My last
paragraph, a true and honest accounting, stands.


alienview.nul -:=A6:-
  www.AlienView.net







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                      Project FOTOCAT News October 2004

From: Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos <ballesterolmos.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 20:40:43 +0200 (CEST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:51:10 -0400
Subject: Project FOTOCAT News October 2004


Project FOTOCAT News, October 2004
Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos, Project Manager
Anomaly Foundation (not-for-profit), Spain

http://www.anomalia.org


NUMBER OF REPORTS IN CATALOG
Up to month-end October 2004, FOTOCAT sums up 4,917 entries.
Slowly --but surely- the catalog continues to add report after
report  covering years, countries, waves from 1900 to the
present day.

FOTOCAT REPORT #1 RELEASED
"The Year 1954 in Photos" is the first FOTOCAT-derived product.
It is an essay on the 101 photographic cases collected for the
wave year of 1954. Fruit of a large bibliography search and
thanks to an impressive international cooperation, this paper
achieved the most exhaustive compilation of photographic cases
for this interesting period of the UFO history. I advise
interested readers to have access to the full paper,
that can be consulted on-line at:

<http://www.anomalia.org/fotocat1954.pdf>

The paper will appear in the forthcoming book by the Italian
researcher Giuseppe Stilo, "Il quinto cavaliere dell=92Apocalisse"
(The Fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse), to be published by UPIAR
(Turin), 2005. The article was originally written in English. A
Spanish version has been produced, with reproductions of the
actual photographs of the period. Publication is expected in
.nul=EDa, the CD journal of the Anomaly Foundation, end 2004. An
up-dated English version containing the actual photographs is in
progress, and it will be submitted for publication to a major
journal. A French translation is also envisaged.

WHO HAS COOPERATED LATELY?
In addition to the many regular coworkers and correspondents,
quoted by name in prior editions of this news bulletin, a number
of people have sent bits and pieces of new information. I thank
German ufologist Daniel Guenther for making available his case
catalog, a good selection of international UFO sightings, with a
number of photographic events. Also to US citizens Roderick B.
Dyke (Archives for UFO Research), Mike Brumfield (author), and
Rich Reynolds (MediaWatch).

Ole Henningsen, the old-time UFO researcher from Denmark, has
surfaced a photograph that was taken by a US journalist during a
naval military exercise in the North Sea in 1952, plus some
interesting correspondence related to the UFO event. Now this
documentation is part of the FOTOCAT files.

FOTOCAT is starting a regional project with Chile. With the able
assistance of university student Marcos Gonz=E1lez, from the CIFOV
group, a wide review of the Chilean photographic UFO cases is in
place. I expect that the present count of 126 entries for Chile
will increase considerably when this project is finished.

EUROPE IN FOTOCAT
Out of the 4,900+ cases currently catalogued by the FOTOCAT
Project, 1,929 (39%) belong to European countries. The
geographical distribution of reports by nation follows:

Spain   504=09
France  304=09
Great Britain 280=09
Italy   203=09
Sweden  154=09
Poland  75=09
Germany 49=09
Russia  49=09
Switzerland 48=09
Belgium 40=09
Norway  39=09
Romania 33=09
Turkey  23=09
Denmark 17=09
Portugal 16=09
Yugoslavia 13=09
Netherlands 9=09
Greece  8=09
Austria 8=09
Hungary 6
Ireland 6
Finland 5
Malta   5
Ukraine 4
Croatia 4
Bulgaria  4
Cyprus  3
Azerbaijan 3
Czechoslovakia 3
Andorra 2
Estonia 2
Kazakhstan 2
Georgia 2
Iceland 2
Greenland 1
Lithuania 1
Macedonia 1
Slovenia  1

Local UFO researchers will now be able to find out whether
FOTOCAT is representing or nor a cross-section of the actual
photographic cases reported in their respective countries. If
any serious discrepancy is found between this tally and the
actual number of known cases (and I anticipate it well might
happen!), I will appreciate being informed in order to add the
missing cases and to complete the picture.

AN OFFER TO EUROPEAN RESEARCHERS
My gross estimate is that FOTOCAT records at least 50% of all
UFO photographic cases published in the literature. Still much
work remains to be done, however as it stands today it
represents the largest single collection of worldwide UFO and
IFO events where an image has been obtained. With the intention
to check the accuracy of the catalog, in terms of date,
location, witness name, and other details, as well as to
increase the coverage for Europe, I am offering any interested
researcher a copy of the corresponding national section of
FOTOCAT. The purpose is to have it returned with due
modifications and additions so that, at the end of the checking
process, any collaborator who volunteers may have an extensive
sample of the historical scope of the UFO-photo phenomena in a
given country.

Those interested can write to FOTOCAT Project at:

fotocat.nul








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                         Re: Gordon Cooper - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:30:24 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:52:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Rudiak


>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 23:21:15 -0700
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>From: Jim Oberg <joberg.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 08:49:40 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper


>5. The same expert witness also claimed the focal length of the
>camera was "several thousand inches."

>The focal length of the optical system Cooper used (Questar
>telescope as a telephoto) was 1250 inches, according to
>Questar's technical specs. This was exactly as Cooper remembered
>it too. How about that? Cooper was exactly right; Oberg's expert
>witness was wrong - again.

Correction:  Instead of "inches" it should be milllimeters. Thus
the expert claimed the F.L. was several thousand mm while Cooper
pegged it at 1250 mm, which was the correct value.

If the regular 35 mm camera lens was 50 mm in F.L., the Questar
telescope would thus effectively act like a 25X telephoto lens.
Area 51 taken from a distance of about 320 miles with a 25X
telephoto would be the equivalent of taking the photo from a
distance of 13 miles sans telephoto.  The secret base there with
its large hangars and extra-long runway would be easily visible.


David Rudiak








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              Re: CE III Holds Up After 27 Years? - Scheldroup

From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 14:27:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:54:31 -0400
Subject: Re: CE III Holds Up After 27 Years? - Scheldroup


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 10:47:49 EDT
>Subject: CE III Holds Up After 27 years?

>After 27 years how does this most famous of UFO movies hold up?

>Considering we know more about UFOs today does the film still
>have that pizazz?

>I for one am stunned at how well it covers so many areas. I
>guess it's one of those films that can't be re-made because of
>the acting charm.

>So for all of you who've been in the trenches the question is
>posed.


Nick Balaskas has an interesting picture that he should send to
you Greg.

CE, and Taken, I'm just fascinated with to see what role the
military has portrayed in these movies when if not equally or
more curious then the roles of small humanoid aliens. The cloak
of secrecy and how to fool the public really adds to some
suspense.

In the end of the movie where Dreyfus makes contact with
friendly aliens when later it turns out that the aliens are like
small children, but don't want a few military personnel to tag
along, they really want Dreyfus!, now look who's the fool and
the little ordinary guy wins. <G>

The story plot also tells us that our aliens are friendly and
our military is not quite, but what if in real life those two
roles are switched the other way around?.

Could it be that our military today is in a real sense concerned
about an invasion force so overwhelming with all its
supersciences in technology, the only edge we humans might have,
has to be a cloak of secrecy to study it over long periods of
time.

It certainly does open up some cause to wonder, if enough
reported sightings lately are seen at or been nearby military
installations, then why should we not wonder if this is about a
survey for potential in military strengths and weakness?

If the military concerns have an ounce of truth, then we are in
for big trouble. I think what the public needs to know would
only be cause for increase what the military does not know. In
this instance would you really want all of these questions being
presented to the general public when if the military is still
looking for answers themselves?.

Concerns for widespread panic could really slow down the
military show and even speed up so called good intentions of our
alien minds if its known wide spread panic ensues back on Earth.

Everyone that can think should be led to believe that Aliens are
just friendly quiet invaders whom upon arrival to earth are
studying, surveying, sampling, kidnapping, and just what our US
military might practice shortly before it invaded a foreign
country...


Serious things that we should not be blinded about...


John






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                               Orb Study Site

From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 15:37:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:55:26 -0400
Subject: Orb Study Site


Hi -

I have no idea how valid this site is, but claims to be one
that covers current day "orb" research:

http://www.orbstudy.com


Eleanor White








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                         Re: Gordon Cooper - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 13:39:55 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:57:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Rudiak


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 15:53:08 +0000
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 08:05:08 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>In a separate post, David Rudiak makes a number of very
>reasonable sounding criticisms of Mr. Oberg's claims which I
>hope he (Oberg) will answer. Too bad Rudaik did not stop with
>his rather impressive critiqiue of Oberg's claims and avoid the
>unnecessary name calling, particularly `liar' which he
>alternately charged outright and suggested alternative
>interpretations for the alleged misstatements or factual errors.
>That only detracts from his arguments and degrades the
>discussion.

Dick,

I normally refrain from labeling people "liars" unless they have
a long track record of the sort of behavior that Jim Oberg
routinely exhibits. One can't routinely make the sort of
"mistakes" that Oberg makes unless one is totally incompetent or
deliberately lying.

How else can you explain his utterly absurd X-15 statements such
as the X-15 flying backwards or an order of magnitude too slow?
Oberg is supposed to be an aerospace expert, not some typical
Internet bozo who barely passed grade school. The latter type
mistakes one can attribute to ignorance or stupidity. But in
Oberg's case they are obviously deliberate and designed to
advance an argument.

The same goes for many of Oberg's many "mistakes" in the Area 51
Gordon Cooper story. Oberg was obviously trying to lowball
Cooper's altitude and confuse the reader about the true
visibility of Area 51 from orbit. This included his ridiculous
statements that the base would barely be visible above the
mountain tops for only a few seconds and the atmosphere being
too "thick" to see through. These are out and out, ridiculous
lies. How can such "mistakes" be made innocentally by a science
writer and aerospace expert?

He also several times grossly misrepresented what Cooper really
said in his book "Leap of Faith," even claiming Cooper said the
exact opposite of what is actually in the book. How does one do
that accidentally? It was obviously all designed to make Cooper
like bad and set him up for ridicule.

What I gave here on UpDates was only a partial list of Oberg's
deceptions on the Area 51 Cooper story.

Now contrast this with the rather benign and inconsequential
"mistakes" Cooper made in recounting the McDivitt Gemini 4 UFO
sighting when being interviewed, such as confusing Gemini 4 with
Gemini 7 or saying the object "glinted" when McDivitt didn't use
that term or sayiing the object was seen "off in the distance"
when McDivitt didn't specify a distance. So what? These are
truly innocent errors (or simply differences of interpretation),
the type anyone might make speaking impromptu from memory in
front of camera without time for reflection. Even James Oberg
would probably make such mistakes.

But look at what Oberg did. He tried to inflate these minor
errors and semantic quibbles of interpretaion into "big
mistakes." Some of the mistakes weren't even mistakes, were
they? It was Oberg trying to spin them into mistakes. For
example, Cooper indicated that no detail could be seen in the
photos McDivitt took, which was correct. Oberg changed the
subject to McDivitt's eyeball impressions of the object, which
did have some detail. But that wasn't what Cooper was talking
about

>>Great suffering ZOT, but if you'd told me in 1965 that I'd be
>>defending the honor of a genuine American Hero (on more levels
>>than just 222 hours of space time) in 2004, you could have
>>knocked me over with an underhanded seed-pearl!

>Nowhere do I see anybody attacking Cooper's honor. Straw man
>argument.

Nonsense. Oberg has repeatedly insinuated that Cooper was a
liar, fool, and/or mentally incompetent. Have you read his
stuff? How can you possibly think Oberg hasn't been attacking
Cooper's honor in order to discredit Cooper's UFO stories? That
is what Obeg does for a living or some perverse hobby.

I honestly don't know how much truth is in Cooper's stories. But
I can recognize a dirty tricks propagandist at work when I see
one. The fact that Oberg has to resort to such tactics suggest
to me that there was probably a whole lot of truth in what
Cooper had to say. The strength of a case is often indicated by
how ferociously and dishonestly the debunkers attack it.


David Rudiak








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             Re: Franz' Mexican Air Force FLIR Video Transcript

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:56:05 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 18:13:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Franz' Mexican Air Force FLIR Video Transcript


>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 00:26:11 -0600
>Subject: Franz' Mexican Air Force FLIR Video Transcript

>Hello all,

>The Mexican Air Force FLIR video transcript including
>translation and timing parts 1 to 10 is finished.

>Voice identification in this transcript is very difficult. We
>don't have any certainty that the persons involved and marked in
>this communications transcript as V1, V2, V3, V4, etc.. are
>corresponding exactly to specific persons. I apologize for any
>inconvenience that this may cause.

SNIP

>Mexican Air Force FLIR Video Transcript:

>http://www.alcione.org/CAMPECHE/

Kurt and Alejandro Franz are to be complimented on their
complete transcript and translation of the FLIR video.

The Mexican Air Force should have provided a transcript but
didn't.

Their work represents many hours of dedicated effort, as anyone
who has attempted a similar transcription (and translation!) can
attest.








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                  Re: Black Triangles Mr. Friedman? - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 21:22:30 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 18:15:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Black Triangles Mr. Friedman? - Hall


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 14:03:04 EDT
>Subject: Black Triangles Mr. Friedman?

>Question to Mr. Friedman regarding the Black Triangles.

>Have you researched and published a paper on the subject?

>Best,

>Greg

Greg,

I have. It's called, UFO Sightings In The New Millennium, and
can be ordered from the Fund for UFO Research

http://www.fufor.com

It includes a table and some commentary about dark triangular
UFOs starting in 2000.


 - Dick








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                Re: Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information

From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 17:30:56 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 18:16:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 10:08:30 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>Subject: Re: Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information Project

<snip>

>You are proposing that they are using unshieldable waves/fields.
>This is not part of our current tech.

I'm saying that shielding which stops EM signals of sufficient
frequency (well above ELF) to carry out even some of the effects
we experience does nothing to stop the harassment effects.
That's not proposing, that is by experiment. We have several
engineers on board, myself included, and I've been a ham radio
operator for 50 years. I know my total-bed-enclosing shielding
stopped all local, powerful commercial signals completely,
radio, TV, cell phone, yet stopped none of the surgically
precise and often repeated remote manipulation of both body
parts and objects inside the enclosure.

More than that, levitation and remote manipulation, which happen
daily to many of us, can not be done with conventional
electromagnetic signals anyway.

So I am saying the technology exists, even though mainstream
science has not admitted to it. It definitely _is_ within the
technology not yet disclosed. Therefore I say again, revealing
UFOs are ET craft with technology similar to what we are hit
with would be a great benefit to humanity to know about, and
significantly help us expose the criminals who are hoarding it.


Eleanor White









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                          Re: Gordon Cooper - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 21:51:57 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 18:18:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Hall


>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 13:39:55 -0700
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 15:53:08 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 08:05:08 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>In a separate post, David Rudiak makes a number of very
>>reasonable sounding criticisms of Mr. Oberg's claims which I
>>hope he (Oberg) will answer. Too bad Rudaik did not stop with
>>his rather impressive critiqiue of Oberg's claims and avoid the
>>unnecessary name calling, particularly `liar' which he
>>alternately charged outright and suggested alternative
>>interpretations for the alleged misstatements or factual errors.
>>That only detracts from his arguments and degrades the
>>discussion.

>I normally refrain from labeling people "liars" unless they have
>a long track record of the sort of behavior that Jim Oberg
>routinely exhibits. One can't routinely make the sort of
>"mistakes" that Oberg makes unless one is totally incompetent or
>deliberately lying.

<snip>

>>>Great suffering ZOT, but if you'd told me in 1965 that I'd be
>>>defending the honor of a genuine American Hero (on more levels
>>>than just 222 hours of space time) in 2004, you could have
>>>knocked me over with an underhanded seed-pearl!

>>Nowhere do I see anybody attacking Cooper's honor. Straw man
>>argument.

>Nonsense. Oberg has repeatedly insinuated that Cooper was a
>liar, fool, and/or mentally incompetent. Have you read his
>stuff? How can you possibly think Oberg hasn't been attacking
>Cooper's honor in order to discredit Cooper's UFO stories? That
>is what Obeg does for a living or some perverse hobby.

>I honestly don't know how much truth is in Cooper's stories. But
>I can recognize a dirty tricks propagandist at work when I see
>one. The fact that Oberg has to resort to such tactics suggest
>to me that there was probably a whole lot of truth in what
>Cooper had to say. The strength of a case is often indicated by
>how ferociously and dishonestly the debunkers attack it.


David,

Okay, so now you are accusing him of being worse than a liar; a
deliberate disinformation propagandist. You characterize his
comments as `tactics.'

Why not incompetence (as you alternatively suggest), or more
simply a skeptical mindset (such as I have encountered many
times) so that he makes too many false assumptions because he is
too cocksure of his position and doesn't think it is necessary
to spend the time to check his facts more carefully?

Your rebuttal comments to his statements are very good. Your
personal characterizations of him and his motives and honesty go
beyond facts and into your own, somewhat mind-made-up, theories
about why he makes those statements. That's a different breed of
cat.

I have disagreed with and argued with Jim Oberg many times over
the years, as I am sure he would confirm, but I don't demonize
him or consider him dishonest or a liar or a disinformation
person just because he and I disagree. I think he is mistaken,
quite badly in some instances, but I think it is an all-too-
common mistake (politically and humanly in general) to conclude
that people who see things differently than you do are dishonest
liars with a secret agenda.


 - Dick








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                        Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:59:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 18:19:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg


>From: Jim Oberg <joberg.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:36:43 -0500
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Oberg

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 08:05:08 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg

>>...it remains that Cooper made statements
>>that make him either bravely and completely forthright, or a
>>liar pandering for personal gain. Which?

>>Cooper is a liar - or not. That's the issue after we sweep the
>>hints and innuendoes and conjecture away.....

>Uh, haven't we advanced beyond the black/white dichotomy, or the
>fallacy of the false dilemma? In my own experience, arguers who
>demand a 'false dilemma' are... well, I don't want to offer a
>false dilemma of my own, but let's just say it's not evidence of
>mature reasoning in action.

>Did Cooper, or did he not, write that he saved the space shuttle
>program from a fatal design flaw by relaying a telepathic
>message from space aliens? Look it up in his book. And tell us
>if you think the story is true, or not. Don't lie about it.

I guess you thought you were making points, but unfortunately
for you, you've just proved my case. Is Cooper a pandering
scoundrel, or not. Don't lie about it... your agenda in this
matter is pretty clear. Moreover, where was this similar
insulting criticism while Cooper was alive and healthy?

...And I wouldn't make to much of my seeming predilection for
black and white dichotomies as proffered by Mr. Hall, Sir. I
suspect he's going to come to soon, realize you're using him to
advance _your_ specious and back-stepping argument, and calmly
eat your literary face for it. Have a _nice_ evening.

alienview.nul -:=A6:-
  www.AlienView.net







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                          Re: Orb Study Site - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 17:03:43 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 18:20:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Orb Study Site - King


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 15:37:17 -0400
>Subject: Orb Study Site

>I have no idea how valid this site is, but claims to be one
>that covers current day "orb" research:

>http://www.orbstudy.com


Hi Eleanor,

It is a rather fun site. I am in the process of creating a site
with many very similar photos, along with explanations for each.
I'll post a link when it's done. In the meantime, I'm having a
dickens of a time scanning the Brunswick book for uploading to a
password-protected site as well.

Your referenced site was quite an inspiration for me.

Regards,

Kyle








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                        Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 17:38:19 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 05:29:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 21:51:57 +0000
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 13:39:55 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 15:53:08 +0000
>>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 08:05:08 -0500
>>>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

<snip>

>I have disagreed with and argued with Jim Oberg many times over
>the years, as I am sure he would confirm, but I don't demonize
>him or consider him dishonest or a liar or a disinformation
>person just because he and I disagree. I think he is mistaken,
>quite badly in some instances, but I think it is an all-too-
>common mistake (politically and humanly in general) to conclude
>that people who see things differently than you do are dishonest
>liars with a secret agenda.


That's just it Mr. Hall! I don't think it's likely that Mr.
Oberg is playing by your egalitarian rules, does not have your
egalitarian sensibilities, and does not show your egalitarian
spirit.

I'll know a tree by its fruit, Sir, and please show me one, just
one, apple of ufological pro over the numberless cons he's
proffered over the years. It may be that sometimes, just
sometimes (?), demonization is appropriate. Consider Philip
Klass.


alienview.nul -:=A6:-
  www.AlienView.net







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                          Re: Gordon Cooper - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 22:49:08 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 05:33:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Hall


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:59:12 -0500
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>From: Jim Oberg <joberg.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:36:43 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Oberg

>>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 08:05:08 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg

>>>...it remains that Cooper made statements
>>>that make him either bravely and completely forthright, or a
>>>liar pandering for personal gain. Which?

>>>Cooper is a liar - or not. That's the issue after we sweep the
>>>hints and innuendoes and conjecture away.....

>>Uh, haven't we advanced beyond the black/white dichotomy, or the
>>fallacy of the false dilemma? In my own experience, arguers who
>>demand a 'false dilemma' are... well, I don't want to offer a
>>false dilemma of my own, but let's just say it's not evidence of
>>mature reasoning in action.

>>Did Cooper, or did he not, write that he saved the space shuttle
>>program from a fatal design flaw by relaying a telepathic
>>message from space aliens? Look it up in his book. And tell us
>>if you think the story is true, or not. Don't lie about it.

>I guess you thought you were making points, but unfortunately
>for you, you've just proved my case. Is Cooper a pandering
>scoundrel, or not. Don't lie about it... your agenda in this
>matter is pretty clear. Moreover, where was this similar
>insulting criticism while Cooper was alive and healthy?

>...And I wouldn't make to much of my seeming predilection for
>black and white dichotomies as proffered by Mr. Hall, Sir. I
>suspect he's going to come to soon, realize you're using him to
>advance _your_ specious and back-stepping argument, and calmly
>eat your literary face for it. Have a _nice_ evening.

Alfred Lehmberg (does that meet your protocols; please address
me as Sir Richard Hall, a.k.a. Richard Coueur de Leon
henceforth).

Can you not see that you are totally avoiding answering a very
direct and pertinent question? Did Cooper or did he not say
crazy things? That is directly related to the interpretations
under discussion about gullibility, memory problems, sloppy
thinking, et al.

Who is engaging in obfuscation and misdirection here?


- Dick

P.S. Jim Oberg is not and could not `use me' in any way
whatsoever. By your implication, I have no understanding of
things that you see ever so clearly. And quite wrongly.








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                         Re: Gordon Cooper - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 18:33:54 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 05:37:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Fleming


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:26:05 +0000
>Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 12:40:50 -0400
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Hall

<snip>

>No, Alfred. What he clearly is suggesting (in polite language)
>is that Cooper was a flake - -at least at a certain stage of his
>career. This is news to me too, but not impossible. Oberg gave
>numerous specific, checkable examples. I don't have time to
>checl them but I hope someone does.

<snip>

>So ad hominem reactions to Oberg are not appropriate. Check his
>facts.


Is Oberg the only person who's allowed to make ad hominem
attacks on this List? As someone whom he attacked here with
malicious and false accusations that I was the sort of person
who engaged in email harassment, I have no sympathy for Oberg
whatsoever.

Ad hominem attacks are _precisely_ what Oberg has used against
Gordon Cooper for years (not to mention a lot of other people).
Oberg has indeed been trying to portray Cooper as a "flake," as
you correctly observe. That's certainly an ad hominem attack,
and he's been doing it over a time span of 20 years.

Toward the beginning of an Omni article he wrote in the 1980's,
"In Search of Gordon Cooper's UFOs," Oberg claimed that when
Cooper spoke at the U.N. about UFOs, Cooper was greeted with "an
embarrassed silence" by the audience. See:

http://www.zip.com.au/~psmith/cooper.html

A few years ago, I asked Oberg directly in another online forum
how he knew that Cooper was greeted by silence and that their
silence was "embarrassed". Oberg never respoonded.

Jerry Cohen, whose excellent rebuttal to some of Oberg's more
ancient accusations against Cooper, also pointed out the lack of
evidence that Oberg could have known about the mental state of
the U.N. audience.

It appears that the "embarrassed silence" was just another of
Oberg's malicious fictions. Oberg made sure to point out that he
sent Cooper his insulting article "for comment" presumably
wanting the readers to be surprised and suspicious that Cooper
broke off contact with him after receiving it. It doesn't
particularly surprise me. People often break off contact with
someone who insults them. Oberg needs to work on his
interviewing technique.

BTW: In his attack on Cooper's book, Oberg has distorted what
Cooper wrote about photographs showing car license plates that
he said he took from orbit. Cooper did _not_ say the plates were
"readable" as Oberg claims. What Cooper actually said was, and I
quote:

"I was shown a few pictures - including some unbelievable
closeups of car license plates ..."

Cooper _never_ said the license plates were readable. Did Cooper
misremember some events? Perhaps. Everyone does. Including
Oberg.








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                Re: Black Triangles Mr. Friedman? - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 21:33:56 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 05:39:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Black Triangles Mr. Friedman? - Friedman


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 14:03:04 EDT
>Subject: Black Triangles Mr. Friedman?

>Question to Mr. Friedman regarding the Black Triangles.

>Have you researched and published a paper on the subject?

No, I have not written a paper or anything else about black
triangles. That is why they are in my gray basket. Interesting,
but no real conclusion on my part other than that they might be
ours or alien... not very useful.


Stan Friedman







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               Re: Spielberg's Black Triangular UFO? - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 19:56:25 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 05:40:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Spielberg's Black Triangular UFO? - Tonnies


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 14:04:39 -0300
>Subject: Re: Spielberg's Black Triangular UFO?

<snip>

>Greg, you had better read up on Billy Meier while you are at it.
>He's considered a hoaxter by many researchers including your's
>truly.

Although the book is a complete bore, Kal Korff's tome on the
subject at least demonstrates that Meier used models. Like Don,
I also think he's a total fraud, but at least he used to be a
pretty good one. (Some of his newer "beamship" photos are
incredibly lame.)


=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot.nul)

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com

New book: "After the Martian Apocalypse"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/074348293X








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                     Farmer's UFO Dream Becomes Reality

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 05:43:57 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 05:43:57 -0400
Subject: Farmer's UFO Dream Becomes Reality




Source: China View

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2004-10/29/content_2152515.htm

10-29-04


Farmer's UFO Dream Becomes Reality

BEIJING, Oct. 29 (Xinhuanet) -- A "UFO" - or flying saucer -
built by a farmer will be part of the Zhuhai International
Aviation Exposition due to open in Guangdong Province on Sunday.

Du Wen, 39, set up the Huanyu UFO Technology Research Institute
in Xiao County, Anhui Province, in April and has quickly
expanded to a staff of 27, including an aviation expert.

"I became interested in UFOs when I was a primary school
student," he said.

"After reading a number of magazine articles, I believed a UFO
was a superior form of transport to an airplane."

After graduating from secondary school, Du worked as a truck
driver, miner and mechanic, but never gave up his dream of
building a UFO.

In 2002, Du set aside a small amount of money for his family's
food expenses and invested his savings in his dream.

The first UFO produced by Du and his colleagues made a short
flight 10 centimeters above the ground last Monday.

Du said he would focus on building a manned UFO that could carry
three or four people for military purposes.

The cost will be "several hundred thousand yuan."

Du has already spent more than 400,000 yuan (US$48,192) on the
UFO project and he said a lack of money was still the biggest
obstacle to pursuing his dream.

Huang Xiyan, president of a local biological technology company,
has given Du's company about 200,000 yuan as financial aid.

Huang, a former physical education teacher, also offered Du
scientific help.

The 41-year-old businessman said he would continue to support
the UFO research.

"I watched a TV interview on Du in May and I was really moved to
see a person strive for his ideal at any cost," he said.

"It has never occurred to me when my investment in this company
will be rewarded, but I'm sure success will come soon."


[Shanghai Daily News]








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                    Re: Secrecy News -- 10/28/04 - Hicks

From: Simon Hicks <slh.nul>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 13:14:03 +0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 05:48:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Secrecy News -- 10/28/04 - Hicks


>From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
>To: <secrecy_news.nul>
>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 13:16:43 -0400
>Subject: Secrecy News -- 10/28/04

<snip>

>WEIRD SCIENCE: TELEPORTATION PHYSICS

>The Air Force Research Laboratory has paid for and published a
>new study on "teleportation physics," referring to the
>disembodied transport of objects across space.

>The author strives to distinguish his subject from the fictional
>Star Trek "transporter" concept, and notes that "we are still
>very far away from being able to ... teleport human beings (and
>even simpler biological entities such as cells, etc.) and bulk
>inanimate objects...."

>But after fifty pages of opaque physics, he concludes with an
>endorsement of remote viewing, psychokinesis and spoon bending
>by psychic Uri Geller.

>"During a talk that he gave at the U.S. Capitol building, Uri
>caused a spoon to curve upward with no force applied, and then
>the spoon continued to bend after he put it back down and
>continued with his talk," he reports.

>"There are numerous supporters within the U.S. military
>establishment who comprehend the significance of remote viewing
>and PK [psychokinesis] phenomenon [sic], and believe that they
>could have strategic implications," he notes.

>And he repeats a warning that "foreign adversaries could exploit
>micro- or macro-PK to induce U.S. military fighter pilots to
>lose control of their aircraft and crash."

>Given the looming ESP gap, the author recommends that "A
>research program improving on and expanding, or implementing
>novel variations of, the Chinese and Uri Geller-type experiments
>should be conducted in order to generate p-Teleportation
>phenomenon [sic] in the lab."

>The report concludes with a ten-page bibliography on
>teleportation physics and a distribution list that amounts to
>something like a "who's who" in "alternative science."

>See "Teleportation Physics Study" by Eric W. Davis, Air Force
>Research Lab Special Report, Edwards Air Force Base, August
>2004, distribution unlimited (1.7 MB PDF file):

>http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/teleport.pdf


Is this the official recognition of PSI that seems to have
been coming for some time?










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                                   Mr. UFO

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 05:56:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 05:56:09 -0400
Subject: Mr. UFO





Source: The Sonoma Index-Tribune - Sonoma, California

http://www.sonomanews.com/articles/2004/10/28/news/top_stories/news05.txt

10-29-04


Mr. UFO

By Tiffany Malehefski Special to the Index-Tribune

Sonoma is not alone.

Every now and then, signs of life from another world can be
spotted on its quiet horizon, hovering silently, long enough for
a handful of people to see, before vanishing out of sight.

Sonoma resident Jim Ledwith has seen them. Maybe you have too.

"There are quite a few sightings in Sonoma," says Ledwith, a
self-described "ufologist" with a passion for things not from
this earth.

He has visited Area 51- an "infamous" UFO site north of Las
Vegas - and subsequently got arrested there.

He has read hundreds of books and articles and has previewed
countless programs dedicated to the topic of UFOs and little
green men.

"It's kind of been a wild ride of sorts," he said.

Ledwith has attended trainings sponsored by the Center for Study
of Extraterrestrial Intelligence, a nonprofit organization
dedicated to furthering the understanding of alien life forms.

On Fridays, he meets with two other extraterrestrial enthusiasts
for sushi as they chat about their experiences.

Last month he took his findings to the classroom, presenting for
the first time a four-hour Sonoma Valley Adult School class
dedicated to the topic of UFOs. The class was well received, and
Ledwith is planning to hold another one soon.

When he's not chasing down little green men, he works in real
estate out of a law office in San Rafael. He is also an avid
train collector - he's been honing the hobby since childhood -
 and he loves gardening in his fruit orchard.

But it's the conviction that alien life has been making pitstops
on this planet for eons that really gets Ledwith's motor
running. It is an interest that has spanned most of his life.

It all began on a sunny Saturday in July.

The year was 1952 and a 7-year-old Jim Ledwith was on vacation
with his family on Long Island, N.Y.

Meanwhile, 240 miles away, eight unidentified flying objects
were seen floating above the nation's capitol in Washington,
D.C. The sighting procured significant media coverage and
subsequently left an impact on Ledwith that he remains unable to
shake.

He carries a black-and-white photo from that family vacation,
which is actually a printout his father was able to make
recently, from an 8mm film.

The photo shows Ledwith, his mother and siblings sitting smiling
on a grassy field. In the sky above them, a white blur, no
bigger than the eraser head on a pencil, floats in the
background.

Ledwith, part believer, part skeptic, isn't jumping to
conclusions yet, but he can't deny the image's serendipity.

"Even if it's just a piece of lint, what a coincidence," he
says.

It is not surprising that Ledwith, like so many others, has made
the trek to Roswell, N.M. - a haven for extraterrestrial
enthusiasts the world over.

He and his wife decided to visit the notorious town in 1995.
They visited Roswell's well-known UFO museum, located inside an
old movie theater.

With the obvious tourist draw in Roswell being its rumored alien
activity, visitors are usually given guide books by the hotel
that maps out various locations where sightings are most likely
to occur.

Ledwith and his wife chose a marker number from the guide and
sat on the hood of their car, taking in the stars and waiting to
see if they would spy what so many others have claimed to have
seen.

They wouldn't have to wait long.

From what seemed like out of nowhere a large black object
stealthily made its way toward Ledwith and his wife.

"It wasn't motorized. It had to have had an internal combustion
engine," Ledwith says.

"It sounded like a tank, low on the ground, and moving very
fast."

They would never know for sure what it was because no sooner had
they seen the foreign craft, they hopped back into the car and
sped off.

"We took off like scared rabbits," Ledwith said.

They never took a picture, and didn't even have a video camera
to record the encounter, which wound up being more of an asset
than a loss.

They also went to scout out Area 51, which is where the U.S.
government stages its most top-secret projects and test-drives
its most experimental aircraft, such as Lockheed Martin's Skunk
Works or the Stealth bomber.

Some believe it is also where the government test-drives alien
aircraft. Area 51 is a hotbed of alien activity, according to
Ledwith.

While they had satiated their desire to sight aliens, Ledwith
wanted to drive the perimeter of the Nellis Air Force Range and
Nuclear Test Site, which is part of Area 51.

Ledwith just wanted to touch the chain-link fence that surrounds
the site. He never had any intention of entering, and even if he
had, any plans to do so would have been quickly squashed.

After only a matter of minutes, an unidentified Jeep Cherokee
approached the couple and unidentified agents apprehended them.

They were detained for more than three hours in separate cells
and questioned by the agents who never revealed what branch of
the government was making the arrest.

Their car was searched.

Nothing was found, no camera, no video recorder.

"That saved our butts," Ledwith says.

The couple was released and given a small souvenir with which to
remember the incident: a typed letter bereft of letterhead,
names or phone numbers, firmly instructing them to leave the
premises immediately.

It was frightening, fun and something he'd rather not repeat.

Ledwith isn't necessarily out to set the record straight and
blow the cover off what some believe is the government's best
kept secret.

For now, he prefers to keep his "ufology" a passion that he
thinks many find engaging.

"I don't think I'm going to be the Messiah who is going to bring
this message," Ledwith says. "I've just been invited to this
party."

-----

[UFO UpDates thanks Greg Boone for the lead - Greg wrote:

"Stories like this one are worth their weight in gold."]









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   Oct > Oct 29

                        Gordon Cooper: No Mercury UFO

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 06:04:24 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 06:04:24 -0400
Subject: Gordon Cooper: No Mercury UFO




Source: Space News

http://www.space.com/sciencefiction/phenomena/cooper.html

Gordon Cooper: No Mercury UFO
By Robert Scott Martin

Staff Writer
posted: 06:37 pm ET
10 September 1999

Pioneering astronaut Gordon Cooper denies being the first
astronaut to see a UFO while in orbit, but stands by his reports
of a strange encounter over Germany in the 1950s.

Cooper flatly denied the long-standing claim, repeated over the
years by various authors including UFOlogical saints Allen Hynek
and Jacques Valley, that he saw a greenish object with a red
tail move past his Mercury 9 spacecraft in 1963.

"No, somebody made a lot of money selling =85 lies on that one,"
Cooper, the sixth American in space, told Art Bell on the
syndicated "Coast to Coast" talk radio show Thursday night. "It
was totally untrue, sorry to say."

However, the retired air force colonel, who once lectured the
United Nations on the reality of UFOs, still holds an
"unshakable" belief in extraterrestrial intelligence, thanks
largely to personal experience.

"On one occasion, I saw some strange vehicles that we assumed
were UFOs," he told Bell.

In the encounter, which took place over Germany in the early
1950s, Cooper saw "flights of fighters flying by in the same
sort of formation we flew, moving east to west." The U.S. Air
Force base scrambled its own pilots, including Cooper, who
remembers the objects as looking "just like saucers -- they were
metallic looking, but we couldn't really get close enough to see
more than that. You couldn't see any wings on them."

At the time, Cooper entertained the possibility that the craft
might be a new Soviet design, but "looking back now," he
suspects "it was some kind of extraterrestrial vehicle."

He also stood by his belief that he saw a UFO land at Edwards
Air Force Base in California in 1957. Although Cooper had been
filming the base with a camera crew at the time, the film, which
he handed over to a high-ranking officer from Washington, has
never emerged.

Area 51 and the lost Gemini photographs

After another round of filming - this time in orbit aboard
Gemini 5 - Cooper ran into trouble with the authorities when
they confiscated film he took from space. However, in contrast
to UFO legend, this film did not contain photographic proof of
an alien encounter.

Instead, he had ran afoul of the authorities for taking pictures
of the "top secret" Nevada military base known familiarly as
"Area 51".

"I found out fairly recently that one of the reasons it got
confiscated was I had inadvertently =85 overflown Area 51," while
taking test photos, he said.

Cooper had no comment on the Great Face on Mars.

"That's one of the reasons you need to send a manned mission to
Mars, to study that stuff closer," he told Bell, gently
criticizing today's NASA and recent presidential administrations
for lacking the "bravery" to build on previous generations'
space advances.


[UFO UpDates thanks 'Norm' for the lead]






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   Oct > Oct 29

                        Wilhelm Reich's Space Contact

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 06:14:08 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 06:14:08 -0400
Subject: Wilhelm Reich's Space Contact




Source: Space.Com

http://www.space.com/sciencefiction/phenomena/reich_816.html

16 August 1999


Wilhelm Reich's Contact With Space
By Robert Scott Martin
Staff Writer

On January 28, 1954, Wilhelm Reich "happened accidentally to
observe two bright yellow-orange lights moving in front of a
mountain range toward a lake." The encounter was the opening
salvo of a "war" with UFOs that would occupy the final phases of
Reich's troubled medical and scientific career.

At the time, Reich, a trained psychoanalyst who had once
belonged to Sigmund Freud's inner Vienna circle, was already
facing what he called "emotional and physical misery" caused by
his more terrestrial battle with the U.S. Food & Drug
Administration over the use of "orgone," a controversial form of
ambient "life energy" he claimed to have discovered.

Reich found an inexhaustible range of uses for his discovery,
touting orgone as everything from the secret of antigravity to a
tool for weather control, especially rainmaking. Most
importantly, he found that he could use orgone to "interfere"
with UFOs.

But to the FDA, orgone simply did not exist, rendering Reich's
orgone-based therapies prosecutable under quackery statutes.
Even today, four decades after the controversy, Reichian
therapists claim to be able to manipulate the energy for a wide
variety of healing effects, including the cure for cancer,
without resorting to drugs, radiation or chemicals. Instead,
Reichians work to build up a current of orgone within the
patient's vicinity in order to strengthen and heal the
underlying life force itself.

Nevertheless, Reich's legal fight with the FDA ended with his
death in prison after defying a federal injunction against the
use of orgone for medical purposes.

Whatever the official status of his medical theories, Reich
expected a response when he wrote to the U.S. Air Force about
his UFO sighting. He reasoned that "the U.S. Air Force is the
natural organization in the Western world responsible" for
dealing with such phenomena because "it operates in the
atmosphere and watches the frontier upward toward outer space."
When the military didn't deal with his report to his
satisfaction, Reich took matters into his own hands.

The encounter and the Air Force

In his letter to the Air Force, reproduced in his last book,
Contact With Space, Reich described his sighting as "a brightly
shining light" moving from west to east through the forest
outside Rangeley, Maine. A second, similar phenomenon soon
joined the first, both moving steadily in front of Spotted
Mountain. He concluded that the objects were not stars due to
their course and the mountain intervening between their apparent
motion and the sky, but the possibility that they were military
vehicles or other objects of a terrestrial type did not seem to
occur to him.

At around the same time, Reich's secretary, Ilse Ollendorff,
also reported seeing "a similar, but brighter and bigger,
because closer, object." Like the aerial phenomena observed by
Reich, Ollendorff's sighting hovered in front of a mountain, but
then "was seen rising once vertically upward, settling down
again and then disappearing."

The Air Force, for its part, was either unaware of Reich's
running battle with the FDA, or was intrigued enough by his
encounter to overlook the controversy. Lt. Steven J. Hebert,
stationed at the Presque Isle Air Force Base, wrote back telling
Reich that the "subject officer notified this organization to
take whatever action necessary, since this unit is interested in
investigating unidentified aerial phenomena."

Hebert enclosed a copy of Technical Information Sheet Form A,
the Air Force's UFO reporting questionnaire, for Reich and
Ollendorff to fill out and return. As Contact With Space
ruefully notes, Reich received the letter only five days before
the FDA obtained the injunction forbidding the distribution of
orgone equipment as medical devices.

Reich returned the questionnaire along with a copy of a short
essay, "Survey on Ea," providing background on other unusual
occurrences around the Orgonon research facility, including the
revelation that friends had told Reich "of saucers having been
seen over Orgonon in 1951." However, he had taken little
personal interest in the reports until 1953, when his discovery
of Keyhoe's book made him wonder whether UFOs - or, in his
terminology, "Enigma Alpha" or "Ea" - might be propelled by
orgone.

The Air Force did not reply, perhaps put off by the impenetrable
nature of the "basic orgonometric equations" included as an
appendix to "Survey on Ea." In the book, Reich includes a rather
coyly self-important note saying "not all can be revealed" about
his relationship with the Air Force, but there is no evidence in
Contact With Space that Reich was in communication with the
military until October, a full six months later.

Instead, during that time, Reich writes that he busied himself
with appealing the FDA injunction and preparing a research trip
to Arizona, where he hoped to investigate the role played by
orgone reactions in the formation of deserts.

Watching for hostile signs in the sky

In looking toward space to explain his sighting, Reich showed
himself to be anything but an uncontaminated witness. Like most
U.S. citizens in the 1950s, exposed to years of speculation that
flying saucers were not native to the Earth, Reich already
believed that unknown aerial phenomena were, in his words, most
likely "contacts with visitors from outer space."

Reich was familiar with Donald Keyhoe's groundbreaking 1953 book
Flying Saucers from Outer Space, leaving him predisposed to look
for extraterrestrial explanations for the unknown lights weaving
across the sky near his Maine research facility. Moreover, the
fact that he had seen 'War of the Worlds' only three weeks
before reporting his sighting was also likely a contributing
factor - as Reich called the film "a rather realistic approach
to the planetary emergency," it evidently made quite an
impression.

Furthermore, the cultural climate of the 1950s not only
predisposed Reich to look beyond the Earth, but to look for
evidence that his UFOs were engaged in "warlike" behavior.

The threat of war was in the air, both in Reich's embattled
personal life and in the broader political framework. The Keyhoe
book popularized several apparently hostile encounters between
Air Force pilots and unidentified aerial phenomena, while no
less a personage than General Douglas MacArthur would warn only
a year after Reich's sighting that "all countries on Earth will
have to unite to ... make a common front against attack by
people on other planets."

With that in mind, the Austrian refugee, who had fled to the
United States from the Nazis, considered it not only a
scientific but a patriotic duty to alert Air Force Intelligence
to the encounter at once.

This policy of full disclosure was typical to Reich, who had
taken care to keep the White House informed about developments
in orgone research since 1951. While his critics point to this
as another symptom of what long-time skeptic Martin Gardner
called Reich's "paranoid egoism," Reich himself seems to have
considered the matter a "major responsibility" and seems to have
downplayed the potential uses of his encounter as a self-
promotional vehicle.

Just before the war with the UFOs

In May, however, Reich made an accidental discovery that a few
Air Force officers, including General Harold Watson, chief of
intelligence at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, would find very
interesting.

As Reich was scanning the sky with a "cloudbuster," a device he
had designed to draw orgone out of the sky in order to induce
rain, he saw a star "fade out" in the presence of three other
witnesses. He pointed the cloudbuster pipes at a second blinking
light, which also faded in brightness. Meanwhile, the first star
reasserted itself once the cloudbuster was pointed away from it.

Reich repeated the experiment three more times in quick
succession, reporting identical effects each time. As it was
scientifically impossible that his device could have interacted
with actual stars - even in orthodox Reichian literature, the
cloudbuster's range was measured in kilometers, not lightyears -
- he concluded that his device had interfered with two UFOs.

Having concluded that his cloudbuster could also function as a
"spacegun," Wilhelm Reich began to outfit his Arizona expedition
as though preparing for a war with outer space.

In October 1954, Wilhelm Reich was under siege. Not only had the
Food and Drug Administration stripped him of his livelihood, but
almost daily UFO sightings were leaving his friends and family
exhausted and frightened.

"There is no doubt that I am at war" with the UFOs, Reich wrote
hours after four bright pulsating lights hovered for hours over
Orgonon, his research facility in rural Maine. "What seemed only
a possibility one year ago is certainty now."

The UFOs had been menacing Orgonon since Reich began experiments
with super-charging his "cloudbuster" weather-control device
with small amounts of radioactive material. Reich had learned in
May that the cloudbuster not only apparently pulled rain out of
clouds, but also drained energy from lights in the sky, making
it, in his words, a "spacegun" effective against UFOs.

Like the cloudbuster, the Austrian psychiatrist turned "natural
scientist" was convinced, UFOs operated on orgone, an ambient
energy source that interacts with life and organic matter.
Reich's claims to the contrary, the FDA had determined that
orgone did not exist, and so had obtained an injunction against
any medical treatment purporting to effect cures through orgone
manipulation.

However, Reich stayed devoted to the reality of his discovery.
He trained the "spacegun" on two aerial objects as they hovered
ominously over Orgonon, causing both to retreat. One
"disappeared after weakening, waning and blinking, leading Reich
to conclude triumphantly that "tonight, for the first time in
the history of man, the war waged for ages by living beings from
outer space upon this Earth... was reciprocated."

As above, so below. On that same day, Reich informed the
authorities in Portland that he would resume his orgone-oriented
publishing efforts. This defiance would lead to his death in
prison less than three years later.

An odd meeting with Air Force Intelligence

Reich, convinced that the aliens were waging their "war" against
Earth by poisoning its orgone, creating deserts, decided to test
his spacegun in the drought-wracked wastes north of Tucson, AZ.
According to his final book, Contact With Space, it had not
rained in Tucson for 5 years, making the desert a perfect
proving ground for both the cloudbuster's rainmaking and UFO-
weakening abilities.

Meanwhile, in order to share his findings with the Air Force,
Reich sent his assistant William Moise ahead to Wright-Patterson
Air Force Base in Dayton, Ohio. As Reich bitterly noted, Orgonon
"had received no direct help from the Air Force, financial or
otherwise," but he remained eager to keep the military posted on
the extraterrestrial-combat uses of orgone.

Moise, however, got a guarded reception at Wright-Patterson.
General Harold Watson, chief of Air Force Intelligence, had
initially seemed eager to speak with Moise about Reich's claim
to have "disabled" two UFOs, even insisting that Moise could
arrive late in the day and the two men could "continue the
conference after supper."

Travelling cross-country, Moise was concerned that accidental
factors could get in the way of the meeting and confirmed his
appointment with Watson twice. Still, by the time he got to
Dayton, Watson was unavailable due to "unexpected important
business."

Instead, a "Dr. W. H. Byers" and Harry Haberer greeted Moise at
the base. Moise hated Byers on first sight, calling him "a man
with a flabby handshake and eyes that don't look at you." As
Watson had expressed concern that a group from the CIA would be
visiting that week, it is a tantalizing possibility that Byers
was a member of that delegation. Haberer, meanwhile, is known to
UFO research as "a crack Air Force public relations man."

Moise refused to talk to the two men and instead waited until
the next day, when he briefed the base's deputy commander, who
reportedly became "excited" by the revelation of a weapon
against UFOs. Haberer and Byers were apparently less impressed,
but took notes.

The battle of Tucson begins

According to Reich, the Air Force continued its tacit interest
in his work, sending numerous jets to fly by his cloudbusting
experiments but making no overt gestures because the spacegun
was "hot because it wasn't official, and the reason it wasn't
official was because it was so hot."

When his group arrived in Tucson from heavily-wooded Maine on
October 19, they were shocked by the Arizona desert, which was
apparently much more severe than it is today. "We were impressed
by the bare ground, giving a general impression of whiteness,
hardness," Reich wrote. "The river beds had all been dry for
about 50 years... no prairie grass was to be seen anywhere."

Over the next few weeks, the party - composed of Reich, his
daughter Eva and son Peter, Moise and another assistant --
 suffered almost immediately from dehydration, exhaustion and
general discomfort, all of which they attributed to poisonous
"deadly orgone radiation." However, harassment from UFOs was
sporadic but persistent, leading Reich to theorize that the
"thirsty" aerial phenomena were actively fighting his rainmaking
efforts.

The researchers fought back throughout November, apparently
encouraging a rich growth of winter prairie grass but no rain.
Transportation difficulties had forced Reich to leave his supply
of radioactive material behind at Orgonon, leaving the
cloudbusters at a sharp disadvantage against the UFOs. Without
the radioactive charge, Reich's team could only annoy the lights
in the sky but not hinder their inscrutable activity in any real
sense.

Meanwhile, the UFOs kept making the researchers miserable. One
of Reich's assistants suffered a "breakdown" while training his
cloudbuster on the sky, forcing him to return to his family for
a month of recuperation. In his absence, Reich speculated that
the man had drawn too much poisonous orgone from a lurking alien
object.

By December 7, Reich decided it was time to strengthen his hand
by sending for his radioactive hole card, two radium needles
charged with orgone. After a plane trip marked by misadventure
and bad weather, the needles arrived a week later.

"A planetary Valley Forge"

Once Reich had his radium, he was ready to retake the offensive
against the UFOs and the desert simultaneously.

"On December 14, about 16:30 hours, a full-scale interplanetary
battle came off," he wrote. "A battle which would have appeared
incredible as well as incomprehensible to anyone who knew
nothing about the (UFO) problems or who adhered to the illusion"
that neither UFOs nor orgone existed.

First, the Orgonon team had to shake off "a special kind of
deadly orgone attack" that left them "in very bad shape...
sick... dulled, somehow out of balance." A "tremendous black
cloud, looking like smoke from a huge fire" grew over Tucson,
eventually taking on an angry reddish-purple coloration and
triggering readings of 100,000 counts per minute on Reich's
geiger counter. All of the researchers "suffered from nausea,
quivering, pain in the upper abdomen and discoloration of
movements," while "about a dozen Air Force planes of various
kinds" flew over the team's camp.

Matters of orgone, beneficial or poisonous, aside, Reich's
description of the event is reminiscent of a nuclear bomb test:
a strong military presence, radiation, smoke, queasiness.
However, it is unlikely that the government would set off a bomb
apparently targeted directly on Tucson, a thriving regional
center of commerce.

Reich brought his radium needles into contact with the
cloudbusters and started firing away at the cloud to dissipate
its power. The operation took about 20 minutes, at which time
the cloud had broken up and the geiger count returned to normal.

It rained three weeks later. In the meantime, Reich's journal is
filled with dozens of UFO sightings - "red-white-blue
pulsations," "yellow pulsations," "silvery disks," "green-yellow
steady" - on which to train his spacegun sights. Most "grew
fainter," were "extinguished" or "blinked out." The grass
covering the desert grew to a height of "several inches to a
foot deep," encouraging local ranchers to drive cattle into the
region in herds.

After a brief side trip to Jacumba, CA, the team headed home to
Maine at the end of April, 1955. "Our job in Arizona was done,"
Reich said.

He was dead 18 months later, and all available copies of his
books were burned by court order. Only a few copies survived,
forcing his scattered disciples to rely on private printings of
his works - including Contact In Space - for direction.








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Oct > Oct 30

                        Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 08:15:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 07:39:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 22:49:08 +0000
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:59:12 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>>From: Jim Oberg <joberg.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:36:43 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Oberg

>>>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 08:05:08 -0500
>>>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg

>>>>...it remains that Cooper made statements
>>>>that make him either bravely and completely forthright, or a
>>>>liar pandering for personal gain. Which?

>>>>Cooper is a liar - or not. That's the issue after we sweep the
>>>>hints and innuendoes and conjecture away.....

>>>Uh, haven't we advanced beyond the black/white dichotomy, or the
>>>fallacy of the false dilemma? In my own experience, arguers who
>>>demand a 'false dilemma' are... well, I don't want to offer a
>>>false dilemma of my own, but let's just say it's not evidence of
>>>mature reasoning in action.

>>>Did Cooper, or did he not, write that he saved the space shuttle
>>>program from a fatal design flaw by relaying a telepathic
>>>message from space aliens? Look it up in his book. And tell us
>>>if you think the story is true, or not. Don't lie about it.

>>I guess you thought you were making points, but unfortunately
>>for you, you've just proved my case. Is Cooper a pandering
>>scoundrel, or not. Don't lie about it... your agenda in this
>>matter is pretty clear. Moreover, where was this similar
>>insulting criticism while Cooper was alive and healthy?

>>...And I wouldn't make to much of my seeming predilection for
>>black and white dichotomies as proffered by Mr. Hall, Sir. I
>>suspect he's going to come to soon, realize you're using him to
>>advance _your_ specious and back-stepping argument, and calmly
>>eat your literary face for it. Have a _nice_ evening.

>Alfred Lehmberg (does that meet your protocols; please address
>me as Sir Richard Hall, a.k.a. Richard Coueur de Leon
>henceforth).

With respect, Sir, this seemed a little juvenile, is more than a
little insulting, and would seem to be more an attack on the man
than on what that man might have to say. Ad hominem by any other
name must smell as sweet.

>Can you not see that you are totally avoiding answering a very
>direct and pertinent question?

The directness and pertinence of the question is an
interpretation of your own, Sir. I do not share it.

>Did Cooper or did he not say crazy things?

It appears I'm not the only one willing to engage in these
bothersome dichotomies... be that as it may, Sir, Mr. Oberg is
charged to leap my hurdles, not me his. It remains what is
'crazy' and what is not, Mr. Hall.

>That is directly related to the interpretations
>under discussion about gullibility, memory problems, sloppy
>thinking, et al.

Interpretations late in coming, suspect in motivation, and
with a predictable axe to grind.

>Who is engaging in obfuscation and misdirection here?

Just based on our private communication? That would appear
to be you, Sir.

>- Dick

>P.S. Jim Oberg is not and could not `use me' in any way
>whatsoever. By your implication, I have no understanding of
>things that you see ever so clearly. And quite wrongly.

Another collection of items on which we must respectfully agree
to disagree, Sir.

alienview.nul -:=A6:-
  www.AlienView.net






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                          Re: Gordon Cooper - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 13:31:01 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 07:45:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Hall


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 17:38:19 -0500
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 21:51:57 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 13:39:55 -0700
>>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 15:53:08 +0000
>>>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>>>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 08:05:08 -0500
>>>>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>I have disagreed with and argued with Jim Oberg many times over
>>the years, as I am sure he would confirm, but I don't demonize
>>him or consider him dishonest or a liar or a disinformation
>>person just because he and I disagree. I think he is mistaken,
>>quite badly in some instances, but I think it is an all-too-
>>common mistake (politically and humanly in general) to conclude
>>that people who see things differently than you do are dishonest
>>liars with a secret agenda.

>That's just it Mr. Hall! I don't think it's likely that Mr.
>Oberg is playing by your egalitarian rules, does not have your
>egalitarian sensibilities, and does not show your egalitarian
>spirit.

>I'll know a tree by its fruit, Sir, and please show me one, just
>one, apple of ufological pro over the numberless cons he's
>proffered over the years. It may be that sometimes, just
>sometimes (?), demonization is appropriate. Consider Philip
>Klass.

Well, you've got me there. I would have a hard time finding a
kind word to say about Klass, whom I consider (based on a long
interaction with him) intellectually dishonest. Still, I don't
buy into the `Klass is a secret Government agent' notion. He is
just a totally close-minded, nasty, character-attacking jerk.

Oberg is a gentleman. He has contributed helpful information in
various discussions, most recenty re: Cooper. He has correctly
found space launch activity explanations for some cases in the
past. He is mistaken about a lot of things. So what?


 - Dick







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                      UFO Over Orizaba & Cordoba Mexico

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 09:36:22 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 07:49:17 -0400
Subject: UFO Over Orizaba & Cordoba Mexico


INEXPLICATA
The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
October 29, 2004


Source: El Sol de Orizaba
Date: October 28, 2004

Mexico: UFO's Over Orizaba And Cordoba, Veracruz

Unidentified flying objects were seen in the sky around 8:30
a.m. causing great expectation among residents of Orizaba and
C=F3rdoba.

Hundreds of residents of the C=F3rdoba-Orizaba area were witnesses
to a seldom-seen spectacle. For several minutes, numerous
unidentified flying objects were witnessed in the skies above.

It all started a little after 8:00 a.m. as students from a
school who were meeting for their morning assembly saw some
white dots in the sky that resembled balloons. The unusual event
also happened to attract the attention of parents and teachers
and some people on the street. A principal teacher of the
Constitucion de 1917 high school located on Avenida 11, said
that the objects were 5 or 7 at first, and finally totalled 14
or 16.

"They were white, not shiny like stars. They moved in a circle
at first and then they headed single file toward Orizaba,"
remarked the witness, adding that both students and teachers
alike witnessed the event, which lasted some 25 minutes. Also in
Orizaba, at the Carlos Cardenas Rojas primary school in Colonia
Cidosa, mayor Martin Cabrera Zavaleta headed a civic event when
one of those present asked that people look up to some balloons
in the sky.

"First they were 6, then 9. Suddenly they started moving while
others remained fixed," said one witness. Two of the strange
objects moved toward one side and 6 toward the opposite side.
One of them remained motionless and finally all of them
vanished.

Professors, parents, students, reporters and municipal
authorities were witnesses to the extraordinary event that was
also seen at other schools and sites without anyone being able
to find a satisfactory explanations. Phone calls were received
at this news room inquiring about the phenomenon. No authority
offered an explanation for this unusual event.

Witness differ somewhat about the time and duration of the
event. Some state that the alleged UFOS were seen at
approximately 8:30 a.m. for some 20 to 25 minutes. Others in
Orizaba state that the saw the objects for litte more than 25
minutes.


Source: www.elsoldeorizaba.com.mx


Translation (c) 2004 Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology (IHU)
Special thanks to Ana Luisa Cid Fern=E1ndez






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                          Re: Gordon Cooper - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 13:38:40 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 07:51:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Hall


>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 18:33:54 -0500
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:26:05 +0000
>>Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 12:40:50 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Hall

>>No, Alfred. What he clearly is suggesting (in polite language)
>>is that Cooper was a flake - -at least at a certain stage of his
>>career. This is news to me too, but not impossible. Oberg gave
>>numerous specific, checkable examples. I don't have time to
>>checl them but I hope someone does.

>>So ad hominem reactions to Oberg are not appropriate. Check his
>>facts.

>Is Oberg the only person who's allowed to make ad hominem
>attacks on this List? As someone whom he attacked here with
>malicious and false accusations that I was the sort of person
>who engaged in email harassment, I have no sympathy for Oberg
>whatsoever.

>Ad hominem attacks are _precisely_ what Oberg has used against
>Gordon Cooper for years (not to mention a lot of other people).
>Oberg has indeed been trying to portray Cooper as a "flake," as
>you correctly observe. That's certainly an ad hominem attack,
>and he's been doing it over a time span of 20 years.

>Toward the beginning of an Omni article he wrote in the 1980's,
>"In Search of Gordon Cooper's UFOs," Oberg claimed that when
>Cooper spoke at the U.N. about UFOs, Cooper was greeted with "an
>embarrassed silence" by the audience. See:

>http://www.zip.com.au/~psmith/cooper.html

>A few years ago, I asked Oberg directly in another online forum
>how he knew that Cooper was greeted by silence and that their
>silence was "embarrassed". Oberg never respoonded.

>Jerry Cohen, whose excellent rebuttal to some of Oberg's more
>ancient accusations against Cooper, also pointed out the lack of
>evidence that Oberg could have known about the mental state of
>the U.N. audience.

>It appears that the "embarrassed silence" was just another of
>Oberg's malicious fictions. Oberg made sure to point out that he
>sent Cooper his insulting article "for comment" presumably
>wanting the readers to be surprised and suspicious that Cooper
>broke off contact with him after receiving it. It doesn't
>particularly surprise me. People often break off contact with
>someone who insults them. Oberg needs to work on his
>interviewing technique.

>BTW: In his attack on Cooper's book, Oberg has distorted what
>Cooper wrote about photographs showing car license plates that
>he said he took from orbit. Cooper did _not_ say the plates were
>"readable" as Oberg claims. What Cooper actually said was, and I
>quote:

>"I was shown a few pictures - including some unbelievable
>closeups of car license plates ..."

>Cooper _never_ said the license plates were readable. Did Cooper
>misremember some events? Perhaps. Everyone does. Including
>Oberg.

Lan,

Yes, Oberg has made mistaken, inaccurate - whatever - comments.
All well and good. Nor do I insist that you should like him. But
how do you explain Cooper's own statements in his book and other
public comments? He sounds pretty flaky. Oberg didn't make him
say those things.


 - Dick







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              Re: US Agency Aware Of Mexican C26A UFO Incident?

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:30:44 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 07:53:15 -0400
Subject: Re: US Agency Aware Of Mexican C26A UFO Incident?


>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 14:08:44 -0400
>Subject: Re: US Agency Aware Of Mexican C26A UFO Incident?

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 15:58:44 +0000
>>Subject: Re: US Agency Aware Of Mexican C26A UFO Incident?

>>>From: Geoff Richardson <geoff.nul>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 14:30:33 +0100
>>>Subject: US Agency Aware Of Mexican C26A UFO Incident?

>>>The source of the information included in the report wishes to
>>>remain anonymous but maintains that agencies in the U.S. were
>>>aware of the Mexican C26A incident as it happened. See:

>>>http://www.thewhyfiles.net/mexican2.htm

>>Not surprising at all that the U.S. DEA would be tracking this
>>event. That, of course, makes this a prime target for an FOIA
>>request. Who is going to do that?

How credulous people are! Come on guys! You need to have at
least a little skepticism. Oh, yes, if it will prove your theory
then even anonymous data sources are fine as well as aprocryphal
stories and urban legends.

>There also has to be US satellite surveillance data on the event
>that has not yet come to light. And you know that NORAD had to
>have been tracking the "flying oil wells" long before any of the
>rest of them, US DEA or Mexican military!

I have gone through the satellite data available. You are not
going to get spy satellite photos and it is unlikely they were
imaging that area anyway (alot of work in Iraq, Afganistan,
North Korea,etc). I did not check the French Spot satellite, but
if they have images (unlikely), then they are going to cost you
alot of money. One Landsat image costs around $500. You will
need good resolution and there are not that many sources of that
kind of satellite image. There are DMSP (this is the military's
satellite) satellites and they did capture images fairly close
to the time period in question, but unfortunately the resolution
is pretty poor. They will likely show the oil platform burn off
flares though. It costs ~$50 for an image.

I did not shell out for it because I felt the Lansdat image
resolution was much better and gave me the data I needed, IR of
the area to enable correlation with FLIR video images.

The following DMSP data seems the closest one of use. Date: Mar
6, 2004 , Current time (GMT): 2004-03-06 00:58:51, Satellite:
F14, night:

http://spidr.ngdc.noaa.gov/dmspimg/200403/F14200403060058.1.ols.vis.png

The following has the database search engine:

http://spidr2.ngdc.noaa.gov/spidr/

>The truth of this incident isn't going to be twisted and made to
>'go away' as easily as the usual suspect armchair debunkers
>would like.

If I can do computer/image analysis in my chair then does this
mean I am a measily armchair debunker? My mind is open to the
possibility of the lights being something other than flares, but
considering the data that has been correlated so far, it seems
that any other possiblity is VERY unlikely.

>Anybody want to teach me how to file a FOIA request? I'll do all
>the labor and leg work ffrom there.


Good luck.






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                Re: Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:53:22 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 07:56:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 17:30:56 -0400
>Subject: Re: Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information Project

>I'm saying that shielding which stops EM signals of sufficient
>frequency (well above ELF) to carry out even some of the effects
>we experience does nothing to stop the harassment effects.
>That's not proposing, that is by experiment. We have several
>engineers on board, myself included, and I've been a ham radio
>operator for 50 years. I know my total-bed-enclosing shielding
>stopped all local, powerful commercial signals completely,
>radio, TV, cell phone, yet stopped none of the surgically
>precise and often repeated remote manipulation of both body
>parts and objects inside the enclosure.

Given that the effects are surgically precise, it is hard to
accept that any tech can do this. Precision requires proximity.
It sounds more like demonic/ghost beings (aka possession) and
less like people. Not that I have had any experience with such,
but I have read enough stories to see the similarity.

You have ruled out subsonic acoustic effects which can be tuned
to particular organs?

>More than that, levitation and remote manipulation, which happen
>daily to many of us, can not be done with conventional
>electromagnetic signals anyway.

Do you have videos of these events with mutiple video camera
viewing the levitation?

>So I am saying the technology exists, even though mainstream
>science has not admitted to it. Sorry, I cannot see how you can
say the tech exists. Maybe it does somewhere in the Universe,
but whether it does here and is used by the government is not
obvious to me. If this tech existed anywhere in the Universe,
then, since range seems unlimited, we would all be harassed by
these beings bent on cheap thrills or whatever.

>It definitely _is_ within the technology not yet disclosed.

Given the hypothesis of captured alien tech, then this is
possible, although I am still doubtful we have the science to
understand 1000+ year advanced tech and that 1000+ year advanced
aliens are dumb enough to crash every other day it seems.

>Therefore I say again, revealing
>UFOs are ET craft with technology similar to what we are hit
>with would be a great benefit to humanity to know about, and
>significantly help us expose the criminals who are hoarding it.

If the public is made aware that they could be hostilely
attacked in the manner you are by UFOs/ET/aliens and that the
government can't do anything to stop it, then I think this will
have more negative impacts on society than benefits. If the
government somehow has gotten this tech from UFOs or aliens,
then I don't see why they would ever reveal it. Really, I don't
see how aliens are so stupid as to give us such tech or for them
to crash and us to get the tech there or that we can figure out
such tech. More likely that the government has figured out how
to do it themselves, but even that seems more unlikely than
demons or ghosts.







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                        Re: Orb Study Site - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 20:34:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 07:58:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Orb Study Site - Maccabee


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 17:03:43 -0500
>Subject: Re: Orb Study Site

>>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 15:37:17 -0400
>>Subject: Orb Study Site

>>I have no idea how valid this site is, but claims to be one
>>that covers current day "orb" research:

>>http://www.orbstudy.com


>It is a rather fun site. I am in the process of creating a site
>with many very similar photos, along with explanations for each.
>I'll post a link when it's done. In the meantime, I'm having a
>dickens of a time scanning the Brunswick book for uploading to a
>password-protected site as well.

>Your referenced site was quite an inspiration for me.

This appears to be a site dedicated to the analysis of what I
call "Flash Orbs".... typically round images found in flash
photos (but also in other photos where a lot of light can
illuminate the atmosphere close to the lens).

Various ghost sites also feature such orbs and the "original" is
the "orbsite": www.orbsite.com., where we learn that we are
being watched by "beings" thousands of years old that the
government won't tell us about. (The orbsite is now rather
dated... seems that nothing has been updated since 1999.)

For some orb sanity try:


http://brumac.8k.com/orb1.html








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               HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 10-29-04

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO Research <hbccufo.nul>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 18:08:03 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 08:04:08 -0400
Subject: HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 10-29-04


HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings

Release Date: October 29, 2004


Halifax, Nova Scotia Night Sky Become Like Day

Date: Late 1990s
Time: 11:00 p.m.

Location of Sighting: Driving East on the
                      TransCanada Highway in Newfoundland
Number of witnesses: 3
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: No Shape, Just a Strange Phenomenon!

Full Description of event/sighting: I was with my parents and we
were driving home from GrandFalls NL around 11:00 p.m. at night,
I was in the back seat sleeping when I heard my mother scream
and my father shouted at the same time. I thought we were going
to die from all the commotion, when I arose I forgot it was late
night because of how light it was outside, I asked my mother
what was wrong and my father replied, ("For the love of Jesus,
look at the sky!").

I said, "So it's light out!". Then he asked me to look at the
clock in the dashboard, Then I remembered it was getting dark
when we left GrandFalls. I replied,"Oh my GOD!", as I was
shaking and trying to wake up out of my confusion the sky grew
brighter and brighter. I was in the Canadian military at the
time and still am to this day, but I know that wasn't any type
of Gov't aircraft. The light lasted for about two or three
minutes then faded out again. Being from Newfoundland I know
what Northern lights are but this was no "Aurora Borealis". In
Newfoundland, for those who are not from there we have a segment
of radio airtime daily called "Open Line" where normal everyday
people call in to give comments and state concerns about
everything from the government to the poor conditions of our
highways. That next morning several calls were made about the
sky lighting up the night before, nobody had seen anything but
the sky go from dark with a few stars to bright as daytime
without the sun. I was a non believer of UFO's, and I am darn
sure if the Gov't knew or had anything to with them the gov't
would be trying to make money off of them ( Cause that's what
Govt's do best) and it would become exposed. When I look back on
that experience that night I get shivers up my back and that is
the truth. I am no longer a disbeliever to the supernatural and
unknown entities, neither are my parents.

All I know is that, in a universe this big we are a spec of dust
compared to the galaxies and supernovas out there. I have
questioned faith and god at times thinking that the bible was
mistranslated and that maybe there was a race of superior beings
to ours, it's questions like these that make me ask myself who,
why and how.

I am definitely, positively,honestly telling no BS story, this
is fact that those occurrences did take place, my parents may be
divorced and living apart ,I know they can agree on what they
saw late that night.

It definitely freaks me out.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

---------------------

Northeast Oregon, Six Daytime Orbs In A "V" Formation

Date: July 21, 2004
Time: 3:30 - 4:00 p.m. ?

I believe it was August (actual date for the jet fighter to
collide was July 21, 2004) when two US fighter Jets were
reported to have collided over Oregon and the Columbia River
near a military reserve in Northeast Oregon. This is time of our
sighting of 7 UFOs.. Please read my description of events.

My 7.75 yr son and I were playing Frisbee in our back yard on a
very clear blue sky afternoon. I believe it was about 3:30-4:00
p.m. not sure exact time. My son says "Dad, what is that star in
the sky?".

I look up to the Eastern sky from our East Portland, Oregon
residence near the entrance of the Columbia River Gorge. Out of
the River Gorge were 6 Orbs.. glowing like stars in the
daylight. They seemed to hover ..then float.. then in "V"
formation moved out of Gorge at about 1,500 ft altitude moving
slowly and gracefully to the south. It appeared they were
following the Sandy River gorge from its mouth into the Columbia
River. They flew along the beginning of the foothills to the
south. They rapidly split into 2's.. The "froze" in the sky.
Totally still.. they were still in V formation. Then two groups
split off main group. then broke off singularly and elevated to
individual altitudes.. as if they placed up a "WALL".. in the
sky. At different altitudes they darted into new positions. as
if a pattern of some form of Hieroglyphic sign in the sky. Their
positions were varied from approx 2500 to 45,000 ft altitude in
placement. THEN THEY FROZE IN POSITION. They did not move at
all. They were totally silent.. And simply "FROZE" in position
in the sky. Their glow was bright white as if you were looking
directly into the sunlight's center.

The one lead which was stationery at approx 35-40,000 ft
remained in absolute position as a commercial passenger airliner
flew right past in its path going from south to north. The ORB
"NEVER" budged a fraction from the jetstream.

This event lasted almost 15 minutes. My son and I both witnessed
it and we pointed it out to a neighbor who said "Wow!.. their
really hard to see they are so bright". The sun was at our backs
as we witnessed these craft in a clear blue afternoon sky in the
east.

Suddenly they darted... . into patterns of 2 again. Then my son
said.. "Look Dad there is SEVEN". Another craft whizzed into
them and then all darted directly UP!... and Vanished in the
blue sky straight up.

I told my son.. let's go inside to see the TV.. I feel something
has happened. We went inside and Found the Newsflash of the two
fighter jets crashing at the time of our sighting.

This is quite real. An event which must be known I believe. I
believe that the two fighters were "intercepting" the UFOs.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

-----------------------

Hood River, Oregon Fireball

Date: October 13, 2004
Time: 6:45 a.m.

Number of witnesses: 1
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Fireball.

Full Description of event/sighting: fireball traveled across the
sky didn't die out until it had traveled across the sky. Looked
like a meteor, however no mention of it in the news. This was
definitely a fireball, that eventually burned out.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

----------------------------

Ft. Myers, Florida Another Unusual Cloud Formation

Date: August 16, 2004
Time: 7:30 a.m.

I was so elated to see this photo! Referring to photo on my
site:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D1978

Finally, after searching everywhere on the Net, I've found
something that so closely resembles what I first saw three days
after Hurricane Charlie. I don=92t think this is just a smudge on
the glass. Here's why:

On August 16th, I was heading back to work for the first time
since my co-workers and I prepped the place as best we could
before heading on to our homes on the afternoon of Aug. 12th.
I'm an Administrative Assistant for a well-known engineering
firm.

I take the same route into work every day, at the same time of
day every day (7:30 am), and this particular morning was no
exception. I was facing west at a major intersection, waiting to
take the left (south) turn. As I'm sitting at the light waiting
to make my turn I looked above the line of cars to the sky and
there, very large and very clear, was this sphere, peeking out
from the middle of a cumulus. It seemed as if the cumulus
cloaked it or wrapped "arms" around it somehow. It had five
rings that I could see that encircled it, each one graduating in
width to accommodate the circumference before the cumulus
blocked the view. It reminded me of the images of Saturn, the
way the rings circled it, only they went top to bottom in a
stacked formation instead of concentric ones. The whole thing
seemed to be made of the same "stuff" as the cloud that
enveloped it, which is to say sort of wispy and puffy. I could
even make out drifts at the bottoms of the rings, which reminded
me of the vapor that can be seen coming from dry ice, yet
somehow the whole thing held together and had a sense of
solidity. There was no movement that I could discern. It just
hung there.

It was enormous, but I have no way of gauging how large it
actually was, except to say a jetliner would be dwarfed next to
it. From its position in the sky I estimated it to be somewhere
over Sanibel and Captiva Islands, the two worst hit areas
nearest Ft. Myers. Light seemed to reflect off its surface, as
it was catching the rising sun, yet the rings had shadowed
places beneath them, suggesting an internal light. It was white
in color, but with nuances that would allow it to blend
perfectly into the surrounding cover.

I kept an eye on it, never thinking to look around to see if
anyone else saw it. Of course I cursed my luck at having taken
my camera out of the car only that morning. The traffic light
changed all too soon and I was forced to move, but as I headed
south I could still see it in my passenger side window and I
kept it in view until a buffer wall blocked further observation.
I sped up, hoping to catch the next light on green and did so.

Three minutes later I parked at work and got anxiously out,
immediately looking to the direction I'd seen it in. There were
some clouds, but none looked like the one I'd spent the last
five minutes watching.

Well, we'd just had a hurricane a few days earlier and it would
be no surprise to see some pretty amazing cloud formations,
right? Sure. Except I saw it a second time.

The second sighting was after Hurricane Frances and this time my
seven year old daughter was with me.

We were taking her to school, the first day back after being out
the whole previous week. There were still trees down everywhere
and some folks still didn=92t have power reconnected since
Charlie's destructive visit. The time was approximately 7:15
a.m. The sun was coming up in a beautiful blaze of corals and
oranges, very dramatic.

We were traveling east and I glanced out my window northwards as
we approached an intersection. There it was again, only this
time I estimated its position to be over Port Charlotte, the
worst hit county in our immediate area, some 20 miles north. It
took on the beautiful tinge of the sunrise, yet still suggested
some type of internal light. The sphere itself seemed so smooth.
Once again the cumulus partially obscured the lower half of it.

I pointed it out to my daughter as we reached the intersection,
asking if she saw it. I asked her what it looked like to her and
she said a ball with rings going around it. She said it looked
pretty, "like that planet".

Just like before we watched it all the way to her school until
such time as we had to turn away from it in order to turn into
the school. By the time we'd parked and gotten out, yes, it was
gone. Again.

She and I sat down later that evening in different rooms and
drew what we saw, although neither of us could really do it
justice. I have been searching since then, trying to find
something that made sense. This picture is the closest I've
seen, with the exception of a photo of a cloud formation that is
said to form over the Mt. St. Helens area in the spring, but
that photo lacked that definition, that solidness, that the
thing I saw had.

Have you heard of any other sightings of cloud-like anomalies in
the South Florida area? I was ready to dismiss it before as just
one of those freak things, but now I'm not so sure.

If you like, I can scan and send the drawings my daughter and I
drew of it.

Thank you for your time.

Thank you to the witness for this report.

--------------------------

Estancia Valley, New Mexico Multi-Light Object

Message: Hi,

Been looking at some of the info on your site and just wanted to
report what we have been seeing in the Estancia Valley of New
Mexico.

For some time now we have been seeing on a fairly regular basis
a multi-light object, blinking quickly and rotating in some what
stationary position. It is primarily red, green and white in
light pattern blinking. We have seen objects come from it,
plains avoid it and the objects come zipping up to it and
disappearing. It's heading is 28 1/2 degrees East of magnetic
North.

It does move, but very slowly in comparison to earth's rotation.
Please note we are in Albuquerque Sunport Flightpath and are
very familiar with night time air traffic.

Does anybody out there know what this is?

Thank you to the witness for the report.

---------------------

Phoenix Arizona Colorful Light Show

Date: October 1, 2004
Time: 3:34 a.m.

I have this interesting video clip I would like to share with
you. I just watched this new show on SciFi channel called Proof
Positive and in the first segment of the show was a family that
was followed by a bright light in the sky as they travelled down
the West coast on a road trip. The wife video taped the object
and it morphed into some odd shapes. When I saw her video I saw
exactly what I taped one morning while walking my dog. I could
not believe it. All along I thought it was a trick of the lens
or something having to do with taping lights at night but it was
not.

Thank you to the gentleman for all of the clips and report.

Video clip and pictures are =A92004RichG.

Video clip #1 Phoenix Arizona A Colorful Light Show 2.86 mbs
Video clip #2 Phoenix Arizona A Colorful Light Show 2.87 mbs

Video clips can be viewed at:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D2021

--------------------------------

Kaufman County, Texas Bizarre Image & Cloud Formation As An Angel

Date: October 19, 2004
Time: 4:20 p.m. (second image captured following day)

Hi Brian

On 10-19-04 at 4:20 p.m. (Tuesday) I was out in my front yard
taking some pictures. It was a nearly clear day with lots of
blue sky, just a perfect day to be outside. I had noticed this
one cloud kind of drifting toward me from the west. Didn't pay
to much attention to it right at first till it got nearly
directly overhead, and then it started taking on a form that
looked to me like an angel with wings and a torch in her left
hand. Her right hand was up like she was waving, her hair was
long, part of it was draped across the front of her and part was
like the wind was blowing it across her wings. I thought, well,
I'll just take her picture. As I was looking at it, I was
bringing up my camera to snap it, the "torch"started lighting up
with different colors. I snapped it in time to get the multi-
colored torch! That's not all the story! I was out the following
day at sundown snapping pictures. As I was downloading the
pictures later, I noticed a light in one of them.I enlarged it
and to my surprise it was a white cross (crucifix) in the
clouds! I'm sending you the pictures to see what you think, I
penciled in an extra one on the angel to show you what I saw. I
thought these were extraordinary and you might want to see
them.:)

Thank you to the person for sending the report and pictures.

Pictures can be found at:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D2011

---------------------------

Jasper, Georgia Round Multi Colored Lights

Date: October 25, 2004
Time: 12:36 a.m.

Number of witnesses: 3
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: round.

Full Description of event/sighting: round in shape, with multi
colored lights that would fade, as if lights were being turned
off. The lights would go in circular motion. It seemed as though
there were green, red, yellow and blue lights. This object would
move, but not like an airplane, and yet, not still like a star.
Have never witnessed anything like this. If anyone in the North
Ga area has seen this, please contact me, as I would like to
hear more about this.

Additional Information.

Could you please describe the weather conditions at the time of
the sighting. Was it Overcast? on some occasions...however, when
a cloud would move, you could still see it. Raining? A clear
night? on some occasions Full moon?

In what part of the sky was the UFO located? North, my dad says
in the NW part of the sky South, East, West? On the horizon or
straight overhead or somewhere in between?

As the UFO moved? How far and how fast? Describe its movements
in detail. We didn't really see it MOVE, however, it would sort
of "turn" by that I mean, it looked like it was leaning

Describe the appearance of the UFO: shape, oval, saucer shape
(may sound "cheesy", but its the only way to describe it size
maybe the size of a large airplane in total weight?? I guess ,
distance not sure how far up or away from me it was, color cant
tell color, too far away and too high up and it was at night,
texture not sure of this either, sound. Draw a picture of it if
at all possible. oh goodness I cannot draw at all on the
computer...

Describe the area in which you made the sighting. Is it near an
airport? well I am about 65 miles from Atlanta, Georgia.. An Air
Force Base? A military or research installation of any kind?
there is an military base in Atlanta as well

Also were any aircraft seen in the area at the time of the
sighting ? Yes, you can definitely tell the difference though,
when an airplane goes through the sky and just looking at this
"object". Its in the NW, but not sure how far up... you can see
the lights going around it... literally... and they are green,
yellow, red, and blue... very bright lights, then like I said
they will beam down and then get very dim...we can go out
there...and it will still be there an hour or so later, then...
boom, its gone... the next time we go out. This is about all I
can tell you about it. I have never experience anything like
this before. I am going to try to video tape it, however, my
video recorder battery is charging right now... so I will do the
best I can for you.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

----------------------------

Ottawa, Ontario Anomaly That Looked Like A Missile?

Date: October 27, 2004
Time: 6:45 p.m.

Number of witnesses: 2
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Anomaly that looked like a Missile?

Full Description of event/sighting: Hi Brian, Sky: partly cloudy
illuminated by the full moon.

In a field close to Ottawa, looking East in the vicinity of the
moon, I noticed a strange line of smoke heading straight up, I
can't say if it came from the ground because when I saw it was
already in midair. The line started just in the middle of the
course between the ground and the vanishing point. It was very
visible due to the moonlight. I showed it to my son and asked
what he saw. Sure enough he saw the same thing. I took a peak in
my pocket, found my small monocular (Don't leave home without it
) and look closer to that "Anomaly", keeping my thought for
myself passed the mono to my son, he thought out loud what I was
keeping for myself, It Look like a missile to him too... We
could see a pale line of light atop the smoke and it looked like
a burning thrusters...

We could not see anything else but the smoke and the orangey
white line. It went up for a moment and when it reached approx:
between 30 to 40 degree in elevation the trail stopped and we
could not see anything after that. I did not see any explosion
of any kind it just vanished leaving the trail behind for a
while. Although it was far away I know IT WAS NOT a plane, we
could not see any kind of lights, and it was going Up in a
pretty straight line. I saw few commercials planes going to the
airport of Ottawa as usual and a least one flying over, ordinary
traffic for that time of the night. Some of the planes were
coming from a eastern direction, I would guess that someone else
must have seen it too. I hope they come forward. I don't know
exactly the direction, it was East for sure and to the left of
the moon but I can't say if it was NE or SE, I would have to go
back with my compass. We were puzzled for a while, we have seen
so many "Anomalies" that I have to shake myself to react and
report them. If only more people would just look above more
often they would realize that a lot is going on at night and in
the plain sight of daylight. Keep watching!

God bless you all.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

----------------------

Portland, Oregon Odd Cloud

Date: October 27, 2004
Time; 6:07 p.m.

To Brian Vike,

I have not had much contact with you recently, so I thought I'd
take time to show you a picture that I took while driving home
from work today, 10-27-04, at 6:07 pm local time.

It was taken from my slow moving car with the window rolled
down, 1/50th second exposure, f3.5, iso 50, optically zoomed to
about 6x normal viewing, about 230mm lens equivalent. The
picture is nothing very special, it is dim due to waning
daylight and focus is not that good. I am looking almost due
north in the photo.

The sky was very nearly cloudless at this particular time. The
photo center area shows an odd cloud which had moments earlier
appeared as a "new" cloud with very crisply defined edges,
unlike any "naturally formed" clouds that I am familiar with,
and so I wanted to photograph it. The color of the cloud was
very blue also.

I was careful to notice if any birds or planes were in the shot.
There were none. I must add that I am several hundred feet up in
the air on a high bridge crossing a large river. There is part
of a blurred cyclone fence rail in the lower foreground, that
was adjacent to the road I was travelling on.

The three dark inclusions that you see were not directly
visible, but I could almost feel their presence, and I know that
sounds odd, but it is true.

The picture I email with this note is straight from the camera.
I have looked at it with increased contrast & brightness, and
also with a solarizing filter applied, and there is a definite
aura surrounding each of these dark spots, colored green with
the solarizing filter.

What a coincidence that Jeff Rense has an article about
fluorine/fluoride on his website today written by Jim Phelps. I
wonder if these objects are surrounded by an aura of fluorine
gases, among some others. Sure makes you stop and think about
it.

Thank you to the person for sending the report and pictures.

Picture can be seen at:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D2012

Brian Vike
Director HBCC UFO Research

Home - 250 845 2189
email: hbccufo.nul
Website: http://www.hbccufo.com
Redirect: http://www.canadianufo.com
HBCC UFO RESEARCH Newsletter:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HBCC_UFO_Newsletter/









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                      Something Inexplicable In The Sky

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 08:16:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 08:16:15 -0400
Subject: Something Inexplicable In The Sky




Source; The Korea Herald

http://www.koreaherald.co.kr/SITE/data/html_dir/2004/10/30/200410300034.asp

10-30-04


Something Inexplicable In The Sky
By John Scott Marchant

In prehistoric times, if you happened to see something
inexplicable in the sky, the best way to share the experience
would have been to scratch its likeness on the walls of your
cave. Fast forward to the year 2004, where the Internet and a
rampant mass media rule the roost, and it seems that every
weirdo, crackpot, cultist and conspiracy theorist is sharing
their, or somebody else's, UFO sighting with the world.

But for American David Ritchie, head of a project team that
produced "The World Internet UFO Directory," the phenomenon of
UFOs runs deeper than simply being the exclusive domain of "X-
Files" Fox Mulder-types who want to believe.

"The UFO phenomenon is not the providence of extremists and
fringe people," he said. "A lot of well-respected researchers
and theorists work on this phenomenon."

According to Ritchie, 51, an editor with Lingua Forum, the huge
amount of new information about the UFO phenomenon (especially
sightings in Asia) available on the Internet was the main reason
for producing the book.

"We thought there was a real need for an overview of this
information and to show Internet users where to find it," he
said. "There are also new interpretations of the UFO phenomenon.
Some reports appear to be consistent with projected capabilities
of nanotechnology using microscopic machines."

For those not up on their science lingo, nanotechnology is the
ability to manipulate individual atoms and molecules to build
machines or create materials from the ground up. With
applications in medicine, computers and automobiles, it's a
revolutionary technology that reportedly has the ability to give
humans godlike powers.

Heavy stuff indeed, but nanotechnology was the furthest thing
from Ritchie's mind one evening in late 1996 when he saw a UFO
flying over Incheon, 2 kilometers north of Inha University.

"I observed the object from the rooftop of a small office
building," he recalled. "It appeared to be a cluster of white,
or very pale yellow lights illuminated from within. It had no
insignia or other identifying markings. It was silent and
hanging motionless in the sky."

Alone at the time, Ritchie compared the object to the size of a
traffic helicopter. Estimating its height to be about 500m off
the ground, he watched it for about 10 minutes before having to
go indoors.

"That was the last I saw of the object," he said. "There was
nothing threatening or frightening about the object. It was
merely flying and unidentified."

With numerous UFO sightings being documented over South and
North Korean skies, one of the most famous incidents also
occurred in late 1996 and is featured in the book.

At 7:20 a.m. on Nov. 22, police stations in Seoul were inundated
by phone calls from frantic residents reporting "a yellowish-
green globe with a golden slit in the lower hemisphere" hovering
over the downtown area. Captured on film by TV news channel YTN,
the object floated in a westerly direction for 10 minutes,
passing over the Han River before reaching Incheon, where it
"flew away at high speed."

YTN later reported that the object's flight pattern was
identical to one taken by seven silvery-white teardrop shaped
UFOs that flew over Seoul heading north on Sept. 7, 1995.

Still, not all UFOs over Korea have been on sightseeing tours.
Ritchie describes a Korean War battlefield encounter in the
"Iron Triangle" near Chorwon as an interesting story, but one
that could not be substantiated well enough for inclusion in the
book.

Occurring in early spring 1951, Francis P. Wall - at the time a
private first class in the U.S. Army - reported seeing what
appeared to be a jack-o-lantern moving across the mountain
range, stopping to hover over a village that was being shelled
by U.S. artillery.

"Suddenly, this object approached us," he said in an interview
with the Center for UFO Studies in 1987. "And it turned a blue-
green brilliant light. The light was pulsating."

Wall claimed that after firing on the UFO with armor piercing
rounds from his M-1 rifle, it went "wild," moving erratically
from side-to-side, making a sound like a diesel engine of a
locomotive revving up.

"And then we were attacked," he said. "We were swept by some
form of ray that was emitted in pulses. You would feel a
burning, tingling sensation all over your body, as though
something was penetrating you."

Three days later, all of the troops involved in the incident
were evacuated after suffering from dysentery and an extremely
high white blood cell count. At the time of the interview, Wall,
now retired and disabled, was plagued by periods of
disorientation and memory loss.

Dismissing suggestions that UFOs seen in Korea are really North
Korean secret weapons, Ritchie offers no explanation for their
occurrence, but believes that they may be the result of "hot
spots" caused by proton beams being shot through the atmosphere.
"I couldn't speculate on who controls the proton beams," he
said.

Containing several hundred alphabetically listed references to
studies about UFOs on the Internet, the book is a convenient
reference for those who would like to know more about what
Ritchie describes as a "fascinating phenomenon." Priced at
15,000 won, "The World Internet UFO Directory" is available at
all major bookstores.


js_marchant.nul









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   Oct > Oct 30

                       Why Time Flows In One Direction

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 13:17:21 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 13:17:21 -0400
Subject: Why Time Flows In One Direction




Source: PhysOrg.Com

http://www.physorg.com/news1734.html

10-26-04


Scientists Zero In On Why Time Flows In One Direction

The big bang could be a normal event in the natural evolution of
the universe that will happen repeatedly over incredibly vast
time scales as the universe expands, empties out and cools off,
according to two University of Chicago physicists.

"We like to say that the big bang is nothing special in the
history of our universe," said Sean Carroll, an Assistant
Professor in Physics at the University of Chicago. Carroll and
University of Chicago graduate student Jennifer Chen are
scheduled to post a paper describing their ideas at:

http://arxiv.org/

Thursday evening.

Carroll and Chen's research addresses two ambitious questions:
why does time flow in only one direction, and could the big bang
have arisen from an energy fluctuation in empty space that
conforms to the known laws of physics?

The question about the arrow of time has vexed physicists for a
century because "for the most part the fundamental laws of
physics don't distinguish between past and future. They're time-
symmetric," Carroll said.

And closely bound to the issue of time is the concept of
entropy, a measure of disorder in the universe. As physicist
Ludwig Boltzmann showed a century ago, entropy naturally
increases with time. "You can turn an egg into an omelet, but
not an omelet into an egg," Carroll said.

But the mystery remains as to why entropy was low in the
universe to begin with. The difficulty of that question has long
bothered scientists, who most often simply leave it as a puzzle
to answer in the future. Carroll and Chen have made an attempt
to answer it now.

Previous researchers have approached questions about the big
bang with the assumption that entropy in the universe is finite.
Carroll and Chen take the opposite approach. "We're postulating
that the entropy of the universe is infinite. It could always
increase," Chen said.

To successfully explain why the universe looks as it does today,
both approaches must accommodate a process called inflation,
which is an extension of the big bang theory. Astrophysicists
invented inflation theory so that they could explain the
universe as it appears today. According to inflation, the
universe underwent a period of massive expansion in a fraction
of a second after the big bang.

But there's a problem with that scenario: a "skeleton in the
closet," Carroll said. To begin inflation, the universe would
have encompassed a microscopically tiny patch in an extremely
unlikely configuration, not what scientists would expect from a
randomly chosen initial condition. Carroll and Chen argue that a
generic initial condition is actually likely to resemble cold,
empty space-not an obviously favorable starting point for the
onset of inflation.

In a universe of finite entropy, some scientists have proposed
that a random fluctuation could trigger inflation. This,
however, would require the molecules of the universe to
fluctuate from a high-entropy state into one of low entropy-a
statistical longshot.

"The conditions necessary for inflation are not that easy to
start," Carroll said. "There's an argument that it's easier just
to have our universe appear from a random fluctuation than to
have inflation begin from a random fluctuation."

Carroll and Chen's scenario of infinite entropy is inspired by
the finding in 1998 that the universe will expand forever
because of a mysterious force called "dark energy." Under these
conditions, the natural configuration of the universe is one
that is almost empty. "In our current universe, the entropy is
growing and the universe is expanding and becoming emptier,"
Carroll said.

But even empty space has faint traces of energy that fluctuate
on the subatomic scale. As suggested previously by Jaume Garriga
of Universitat Autonoma de Barcelona and Alexander Vilenkin of
Tufts University, these flucuations can generate their own big
bangs in tiny areas of the universe, widely separated in time
and space. Carroll and Chen extend this idea in dramatic
fashion, suggesting that inflation could start "in reverse" in
the distant past of our universe, so that time could appear to
run backwards (from our perspective) to observers far in our
past.

Regardless of the direction they run in, the new universes
created in these big bangs will continue the process of
increasing entropy. In this never-ending cycle, the universe
never achieves equilibrium. If it did achieve equilibrium,
nothing would ever happen. There would be no arrow of time.

"There's no state you can go to that is maximal entropy. You can
always increase the entropy more by creating a new universe and
allowing it to expand and cool off," Carroll explained.


Source: University of Chicago







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   Oct > Oct 30

                          Re: Orb Study Site - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 10:06:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 13:19:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Orb Study Site - King


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 20:34:15 -0400
>Subject: Re: Orb Study Site


<snip>

>For some orb sanity try:

>http://brumac.8k.com/orb1.html


Hi Bruce,

Your orb analysis is excellent. For a purely analytical look at
the orb phenomenon, there is no better place to start.

My project is more in a humorous vein. Using normal household
objects and substances, I was able to amass a nice group of
classic orb shots.

I did make one discovery which sheds some light on the subject.

In several of my images, I was shooting across a room which had
a mirrored wall opposite the camera location. In each case, some
of the particles are visible from the front by the camera flash,
and visible from behind in the reflected light from the mirror.
But whenever an orb is visible, it is not reflected in the
mirror.

This led me to spend a lot of time taking photos of falling
talcum powder, cat dander and ash in front of the mirror.

So if orbs are real 3D objects, they are only visible from the
"front", and they don't reflect in a mirror. Nor do they cast
shadows. Obviously they are not real 3D objects, or at least not
the real 3D objects they appear to be, but light flares off tiny
specks close to the camera, as your site describes.

They do however look really cool sometimes.

I hope some of the proponents of orbs start shooting into
mirrors. On further "reflection", They too might become
"enlightened". *S*


All the Best,

Kyle









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   Oct > Oct 30

                         Re: Gordon Cooper - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 10:31:53 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 13:21:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Fleming


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 13:38:40 +0000
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper


>Lan,

>Yes, Oberg has made mistaken, inaccurate - whatever - comments.
>All well and good. Nor do I insist that you should like him. But
>how do you explain Cooper's own statements in his book and other
>public comments? He sounds pretty flaky. Oberg didn't make him
>say those things.


But you're _not_ really talking about Coopers 'own statements';
you're talking about what are mostly Oberg's misrepresentations
of them on this List.

Some of Oberg's distortions and outright - um - 'mistakes' have
already been pointed out here. But you really should read
Cooper's book so you can see what Cooper actually wrote rather
than getting it filtered by Oberg.








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   Oct > Oct 30

                        Know The Story Of Noah's Ark?

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 12:04:48 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 13:26:53 -0400
Subject: Know The Story Of Noah's Ark?


Yes, I know this isn't UFO stuff, yet it is important to note how
these scientists achieved results. Who knows what secrets the
past has regarding the oceans and skies and space.


Best,

Greg

-----

Source: Asia One - Singapore

http://newpaper.asia1.com.sg/top/story/0,4136,75238,00.html

Know The Story Of Noah's Ark?

So, Was There A Flood?

Four years ago, scientists thought they had found the place to
settle the Noah flood debate: A farmer's house on a bluff
overlooking the Black Sea.

It was built about 7,500 years ago just before tidal waves
inundated the homestead, submerged the coastline and turned the
freshwater lake into salty sea.

Some believed the rectangular site of stones and wood could help
solve the age-old question of whether the Black Sea's flooding
was the event recounted in the Biblical story of Noah.

That story told of a calamitous flood occurring over 40 days and
nights.

Scientists had largely dismissed it, believing the Black Sea
filled up gradually with gently rising waters.

That wisdom was rocked, however, when two scholars claimed
several years ago that the Black Sea's flooding was more recent
- and so rapid and widespread that it forced people to move as
far away as mainland Europe.

Scientists who visited the underwater site off the northern
Turkish coastal town of Sinop last year couldn't arrive at any
conclusions.

The settlement, about 100m underwater, was 'contaminated' by
wood that had drifted in, foiling any attempt to accurately date
the ruin, and thus the flood.

'We were not able to get a smoking gun,' said Mr Robert Ballard,
the underwater explorer and discoverer of the Titanic.

But the trip was successful, and the scientists are preparing to
publish their findings early next year.

Mr Ballard heralded the work of Hercules, an underwater
excavator used for the first time.

The 2.1m robot dug around the ruins and retrieved artefacts
using pincers outfitted with sensors that regulated the pressure
they exerted - much like a human hand.

Mr Fredrik Hiebert, an archaeology fellow at National
Geographic, said Hercules' success ushers in a new era in ocean
archaeology. 'We now have the technical capabilities to excavate
scientifically in underwater environments.'

The team also used high-definition cameras, a new Internet
bandwidth and satellite hookups to link scientists and
schoolchildren live to the mission - the first time such
technology had been used simultaneously.

On another leg of the journey, the team explored a 1,500-year-
old trading vessel they say is the best preserved ship of the
Byzantine period ever located.

Scientists were especially interested in this site, dubbed
'Shipwreck D', because the Black Sea's unique, oxygen-less water
leaves everything on the bottom mostly intact.

Shipwreck D is so well-preserved that cord tied in a V-shape at
the top of the ship's wooden mast is still clearly visible.

Researchers noted the ship's planks were coated with a substance
believed to be wax, which shows that the merchants were
transporting honey, said Ms Cheryl Ward, a maritime
archaeologist at Florida State University.

Hercules found six amphoras - slender, carrot-shaped shipping
jars. The sediment in them will be analysed for traces of pollen
to solidify the honey theory.


Trading Boom

Ms Ward, 43, thinks the boat was one of hundreds plying the
Black Sea during the 5th and 6th centuries, when Rome ordered
more taxes to be collected from its eastern province.

The edict spawned a boom in local production and trading among
communities across the Mediterranean and north to the Crimea.

'It's like the early '90s Silicon Valley takeoff (when) everyone
had a lot of great ideas,' Ms Ward said. 'It proves we're part
of a longtime continuum of humanity.' - AP.








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   Oct > Oct 30

                                Igor Returns

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 12:44:36 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 13:30:54 -0400
Subject: Igor Returns


Russian retired Air Force 'UFO' General returns to the news.

Col. Gen. Igor Maltsev is in the news now as a result of
receiving an award from Saddham's government during March, 2003.

He and another retired general, Achelov, received awards from
Iraqi Defense Minister Sultan Hasham Ahmed, according to the
Washington Times (Sat. Oct 30). This was about the time that,
according to other reports, Russian "spetznaz" forces were
spiriting explosives, etc. out of Iraq.

When interviewed in April 2003 Gen. Ahelov wouldn't say why he
was awarded but that he didn't go to Baghdad to "drink coffee."

So what, asks the puzzled reader, does this have to do with
UFOs?

Some may recall way back in 1990, during the time of the Belgian
UFO flap (e.g.,Nov. 89 - May 90) that there were also many
sightings reported in the former Soviet Union, (summer 1989,
including Voronezh in Sept., through spring '90).

The particular sightings of interest here occurred along the
area of the Pereslavl - Yuroslavl highway northeast (?) of
Moscow on March 21, 1990.

These sightings involved numerous reports by Soviet military and
an airborne 'chase' that included radar and visual observations.
For a brief summary see THE UFO EVIDENCE Vol. II, page 51

I recall this sighting event because 'back in those days' I was
at the cutting edge of learning information about UFO sightings
in Russia. I learned of this sighting from the Soviet press,
after translation.

According to the press story, about 100 military observers had
reported this event.

Recall that the person who reported the sighting to the press
was a man of considerable authority, then General in charge of
the Air Defense of Moscow... Col. General Igor Maltsev.








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                         Re: Gordon Cooper - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 13:39:41 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 13:57:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Sparks


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 13:38:40 +0000
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 18:33:54 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

<snip>

>>BTW: In his attack on Cooper's book, Oberg has distorted what
>>Cooper wrote about photographs showing car license plates that
>>he said he took from orbit. Cooper did _not_ say the plates were
>>"readable" as Oberg claims. What Cooper actually said was, and I
>>quote:

>>"I was shown a few pictures - including some unbelievable
>>closeups of car license plates ..."

>>Cooper _never_ said the license plates were readable. Did Cooper
>>misremember some events? Perhaps. Everyone does. Including
>>Oberg.

<snip>

This is really desperate grasping at straws. Cooper clearly
implies that he could read the car license plates, otherwise why
say the purported space photos of the license plates at Area 51
were "unbelieveable closeups"?

In any case it is utterly ridiculous that Cooper could take
ultra-high resolution photos showing the rectangular shape of
car license plates from three hundred miles away through the
dirty distorted Gemini windows using only a shaky human
_hand- held_ camera and somehow avoid motion blurring the tiny
details, and at a grazing slant angle through three hundred plus
miles of murky atmosphere instead of looking straight down (when
atmospheric distortion is at a minimum). Simple calculation
shows that just to see the "squareness" of a car license plate,
a minimum of 4 x 2 pixels in resolution, without even being able
to read the letters, using the 1250 mm focal length I think I
read posted here, would be about 30 x 15 feet minimum
resolution, for fine five-micron film grain. This would make it
virtually impossible even to see an entire car, let alone
"unbelievable closeups of car license plates."









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                  Re: The Official Report Black Hole - Pope

From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 20:13:35 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 16:29:39 -0400
Subject: Re: The Official Report Black Hole - Pope


>From: Simon Hicks <slh.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:09:30 +0800
>Subject: The Official Report Black Hole

>While reading Hynek's UFO Report the other day, it struck me
>that there have been many cases where the military witness has
>allegedly filed a report of their experience with
>superiors/intelligence.

>Has _any_ attempt been made to track these reports as to where
>in the hierarchy these reports are sent? Any sort of
>paper/contact/report trail established i.e. not only filing
>cabinets but also eyes and ears exposed to the reports on their
>way to their ultimate resting place?

<snip>

In the United Kingdom, procedures for investigating UFO reports
from military personnel have varied over the years. During my
tour of duty on the Ministry of Defence's UFO project, no
distinction was made between reports from the public and reports
from the military. They were reported to the same office and
investigated in the same way.

However, this was not always the case, and on some occasions in
the history of the project, reports from Service personnel were
handled separately, by the Defence Intelligence Staff.
Ufologists carrying out research in the UK's National Archives
need to take this into account. They also need to be imaginative
in carrying out their research, looking beyond references to
"UFOs" and checking files with titles such as "Unorthodox
Aircraft".


Best wishes,

Nick Pope








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               Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings? - Pope

From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 20:56:57 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 16:31:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings? - Pope


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 18:33:01 EDT
>Subject: Anyone Got Any Info On Changelings?

>I can't say why the topic of changelings came up, it's not
>appropriate at this moment but it is pertinent to the subject of
>abductions and visitations.

>I'm wondering if any of you has covered this subject in depth in
>books, papers, video etc.

Jacques Vallee covers this in his book, Dimensions, and I cover
it in, The Uninvited. The appropriate extract can be read at
the link below:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0440234875/ref=pm_dp_ln_b_6/104-62
45370-9406334?v=glance&s=books&vi=reviews

These two previous UFO UpDates postings may also be of interest:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/feb/m28-019.shtml

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/mar/m03-009.shtml


Best wishes,

Nick Pope








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                        Re: Orb Study Site - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 16:02:41 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 16:33:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Orb Study Site - Maccabee


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 10:06:44 -0500
>Subject: Re: Orb Study Site

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 20:34:15 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Orb Study Site

><snip>

>>For some orb sanity try:

>>http://brumac.8k.com/orb1.html


>Hi Bruce,

>Your orb analysis is excellent. For a purely analytical look at
>the orb phenomenon, there is no better place to start.

<snip>

>This led me to spend a lot of time taking photos of falling
t>alcum powder, cat dander and ash in front of the mirror.

>So if orbs are real 3D objects, they are only visible from the
>"front", and they don't reflect in a mirror. Nor do they cast
>shadows. Obviously they are not real 3D objects, or at least not
>the real 3D objects they appear to be, but light flares off tiny
>specks close to the camera, as your site describes.

Way to go! Experiment.

Never occurred to me to try a mirror reflection since none of
the reports I had received involved mirrors - other than flash
reflections in mirrors.








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                          Secrecy News -- 10/30/04

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 16:53:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 17:30:27 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 10/30/04


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 95
October 30, 2004


**      KERRY ON OPENNESS AND SECRECY
**      BUSH ON OPENNESS AND SECRECY


KERRY ON OPENNESS AND SECRECY

Though it has gone largely unremarked by supporters and
opponents alike, John Kerry has an extraordinary Senate record
as an investigator and overseer of some of the government's most
controversial, complex and secretive activities.

He has repeatedly exposed abuses of the government secrecy
system, and has often prevailed in overcoming unwarranted
secrecy.

One high point of his Senate career is his chairmanship of the
Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs, which culminated in a 1200
page final report in 1993.

Perhaps it is a sign of the anemic state of American democracy
that this monument of government accountability is out of print
and forgotten.But it is a remarkable document -- lucid,
passionate and decent.

Among other things, the Committee report is a testament to the
power of openness and declassification and to clarify and to
heal.

The Kerry Committee's achievements included "the most rapid and
extensive declassification of public files and documents on a
single issue in American history" as of 1993.

A decade before the 9/11 Commission wrestled with the White
House over access to the President's Daily Brief, members of
Senator Kerry's committee sought and gained limited access to
PDBs in the first Bush Administration.

"Nothing has done more to fuel suspicion about the government's
handling of the POW/MIA issue than the fact that so many
documents related to those efforts have remained classified for
so long," the Kerry Committee report concluded.

"The Committee believes that its legacy will be that it removed
the shroud of secrecy which for too long has hidden information
about POW/MIAs from public scrutiny."

Though it pulled few punches and displayed a willingness to find
fault with individuals and agencies inside and outside of
government (and to praise others, such as then-Secretary of
Defense Dick Cheney), Senator Kerry's Committee was still able
to function effectively on a bipartisan basis.

Of course, the policies of a hypothetical President Kerry cannot
be reliably predicted based on the practices of Committee
Chairman Kerry.

But it is noteworthy that as a Senator, Kerry demonstrated an
exceptionally vivid understanding of the pitfalls of executive
branch secrecy and the essential function of government
accountability in a democracy.

The executive summary of the 1993 Report of Senator Kerry's
Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs may be found here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1993_rpt/pow-exec.html


BUSH ON OPENNESS AND SECRECY

The documented increase in government secrecy under President
Bush is partly driven by the heightened state of security
associated with military action and the threat of terrorism.But
it also reflects a seeming disdain for public deliberation and
official accountability that predates September 11, 2001.

The President's secrecy policies are within the parameters of
the law and the Constitution -- with the exception of the
refusal by the CIA and the Justice Department to release
historical intelligence budget information, which violates the
Constitutional statement and account clause, we believe.

But Bush Administration secrecy places a premium on strong
executive branch authority at the expense of congressional
oversight, freedom of information and even such mundane things
as making the President available to answer questions from the
press. As a result, the character and the possibilities of
citizenship in our democracy are increasingly constrained.

In a small but telling example, the telephone directory for the
Department of Defense, which for many years used to be for sale
at the Government Printing Office Bookstore, has been deemed
"for official use only" in the Bush Administration and is no
longer available.A wall between the public and its government
that did not previously exist has now been erected.

(The White House's own telephone directory is also stamped "for
official use only," though it may be purchased by anyone for $35
from the private Bureau of National Affairs.Meanwhile, the
Department of Energy, which handles information and materials as
sensitive as any in government, makes its telephone directory
available on the web.)

Many of the Bush Administration's official policies and
pronouncements on secrecy may be found here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/bush/index.html

A recent, mostly critical discussion of Bush Administration
secrecy policy is presented in "Groups raise concerns about
increased classification of documents" by Gregg Sangillo,
National Journal, October 23:

http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/1004/102704nj1.htm




_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

Secrecy News has an RSS feed at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:saftergood.nul
voice:(202) 454-4691







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                           Re: Igor Returns - Pope

From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 23:08:22 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 10:37:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Igor Returns - Pope


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 12:44:36 -0400
>Subject: Igor Returns

>Russian retired Air Force 'UFO' General returns to the news.

>Col. Gen. Igor Maltsev is in the news now as a result of
>receiving an award from Saddam's government during March, 2003.

<snip>

>So what, asks the puzzled reader, does this have to do with
>UFOs?

>Some may recall way back in 1990, during the time of the Belgian
>UFO flap (e.g.,Nov. 89 - May 90) that there were also many
>sightings reported in the former Soviet Union, (summer 1989,
>including Voronezh in Sept., through spring '90).

>The particular sightings of interest here occurred along the
>area of the Pereslavl - Yuroslavl highway northeast (?) of
>Moscow on March 21, 1990.

>These sightings involved numerous reports by Soviet military and
>an airborne 'chase' that included radar and visual observations.
>For a brief summary see THE UFO EVIDENCE Vol. II, page 51

>I recall this sighting event because 'back in those days' I was
>at the cutting edge of learning information about UFO sightings
>in Russia. I learned of this sighting from the Soviet press,
>after translation.

>According to the press story, about 100 military observers had
>reported this event.

>Recall that the person who reported the sighting to the press
>was a man of considerable authority, then General in charge of
>the Air Defense of Moscow... Col. General Igor Maltsev.

I've not really looked into the UFO situation in the former
Soviet Union, but there's some interesting information about
this in some of the UK Ministry of Defence's UFO files.

In 1967 several newspapers reported the fact that a Soviet Air
Force Commission had been established to investigate UFOs. Our
Scientific Attach=E9 in Moscow made discreet enquiries and the
Pentagon asked if the UK had any information on this.

A Reuters report stated that the Soviet Commission would be
chaired by Major General A. P. Strolyarov, Soviet Air Force
Technical Services (Retired). I can't recall what happened after
this and don't think Strolyarov's involvement has been picked up
on widely by ufologists. There's a brief reference in Paul
Stonehill's book, The Soviet UFO Files, and some online
references. The situation isn't helped by some confusion as to
the correct spelling of his name: Strolyarov or Stolyarov. Try
both on Google for more information.


Best wishes,

Nick Pope








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               Shielding & Harassment [was: Call To Action...]

From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 18:23:49 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 10:42:01 -0500
Subject: Shielding & Harassment [was: Call To Action...]


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:53:22 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>Subject: Re: Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information Project

<snip>

>Given that the effects are surgically precise, it is hard to
>accept that any tech can do this. Precision requires proximity.
>It sounds more like demonic/ghost beings (aka possession) and
>less like people. Not that I have had any experience with such,
>but I have read enough stories to see the similarity.

It's similar, but locked into the other half - the harassment
by people - it's not that simple. More than that, our members
have tried moving many times, all over the globe, with no
cessation in either human or electronic harassment.

>You have ruled out subsonic acoustic effects which can be tuned
>to particular organs?

The 4-layer shield around my bed had a great deal of damping -
 being 4 layers, and the inner layer was conductive foam, which
made the unit almost like an anechoic chamber. That, plus the 8-
inch concrete walls, floors and ceiling, and fully enclosed
balcony which meant two fully weatherproofed sets of windows
sound from the outside would have had to pass through. The
mattress and bedding also added to the sound deadening
qualities.

Infrasound spreads like crazy too, and others would have noticed
things happening to them in the apartment building.

One trick they like to demonstrate (rarely) is while you are lying
down, take one foot, and bend each toe slowly back as far as
they can without breaking it. That is not an infrasound thing.

Neither is picking up objects in the enclosure, and repeatedly
whacking you in the face with them.

And the faked sounds - fake phone ringing, fake pager going off,
fake alarm clock going off - continued unabated too.

>>More than that, levitation and remote manipulation, which happen
>>daily to many of us, can not be done with conventional
>>electromagnetic signals anyway.

>Do you have videos of these events with mutiple video camera
>viewing the levitation?

Not even a single video camera. That also points to this being
deliberate. With a video camera running, one of two things
happens:

- the perps stop doing their thing until the tape runs out
- the perps stop the camera

Similarly, when I try sleeping with an audible/meter output EEG
connected to my head, with a tape recording recording the
audible indication, the perps will blast it with heavy static.
At no other time does the EEG unit have a static problem. (By
the way, that would be a nifty experiment for an abductee to
do.)

They occasionally yank my legs forward, landing me on the
ground, as I am walking outside too. No chance of catching that
with a camcorder. The ability to do that is described in Tim
Rifat's book "Remote Viewing", as being a Russian psychic
specialty.

As far as being "propaganda", I know there is always lots of
that floating around, but at the same time, I don't regard every
Russian as a liar because they lived/live under a crooked
government.

** You know what would be great - if CUFOS would lend a local
paranormal investigation group one of their UFO abductee
environmental monitor clusters - since they told me they have
finished - and let the group analyze recorded data from such an
instrument during periods of intense effects at my apartment, or
of another target. There might be some important clues available
there.

Even if the perps shut down or made erratic such instrumentation
- that itself would be an important clue.

None of us can afford such a setup - every one of us gets it
both barrels (electronic and conventional harassment) on the
job, to drive us into poverty.

>>So I am saying the technology exists, even though mainstream
>>science has not admitted to it.

>Sorry, I cannot see how you can
>say the tech exists. Maybe it does somewhere in the Universe,
>but whether it does here and is used by the government is not
>obvious to me. If this tech existed anywhere in the Universe,
>then, since range seems unlimited, we would all be harassed by
>these beings bent on cheap thrills or whatever.

Well, the tech does exist and only certain people are being
harassed. I can't explain that. I can't help hoping that more
people will be targetted, not that I want anyone to go through
this, but that is probably the only way this will ever come out
into the open.

>From an April 2002 on line survey, if the visitors were anything
like typical, as many as one person in a hundred may be going
through this right now. (1% said they had many of the symptoms.)

It may be that a _very_ large number of people are actually
being harassed but are as yet unaware, thinking it's just
incredibly bad luck. I can say that perhaps one in a hundred who
pass by my picket sign do look at it very seriously, taking
their time, but don't stop and talk. I think they are afraid of
being seen as a 'wacko'. At this point, I can't know exactly
what they are thinking about.

The levitation and remote manipulation for most targets is not as
exaggerated as has happened to me. Most common is having your
arm or hand nudged while you are trying to do delicate or messy
work. These nudges, if witnessed, would be seen as ordinary
clumsiness, but "from the inside" it is unmistakeably a nudge.

That's the "game" they play. They want to be _sure_ the target knows
he/she is being targetted, but totally unable to prove it to anyone else.

>>It definitely _is_ within the technology not yet disclosed.
>
>Given the hypothesis of captured alien tech, then this is
>possible, although I am still doubtful we have the science to
>understand 1000+ year advanced tech and that 1000+ year advanced
>aliens are dumb enough to crash every other day it seems.

Again, the starting point is it is happening. I can't explain
it.

I can't even begin to understand the human criminals involved in
this, never mind possible alien criminals too.

>>Therefore I say again, revealing
>>UFOs are ET craft with technology similar to what we are hit
>>with would be a great benefit to humanity to know about, and
>>significantly help us expose the criminals who are hoarding it.

>If the public is made aware that they could be hostilely
>attacked in the manner you are by UFOs/ET/aliens and that the
>government can't do anything to stop it, then I think this will
>have more negative impacts on society than benefits. If the
>government somehow has gotten this tech from UFOs or aliens,
>then I don't see why they would ever reveal it. Really, I don't
>see how aliens are so stupid as to give us such tech or for them
>to crash and us to get the tech there or that we can figure out
>such tech. More likely that the government has figured out how
>to do it themselves, but even that seems more unlikely than
>demons or ghosts.

I think the government, or more properly, the New World Order,
may well have developed it from the many ancient documents which
are not widely read. I doubt that any of this advanced stuff is
new at all. A hint of that is all the secrecy surrounding the
Dead Sea scrolls. And who knows what's in the Vatican's
basement?

But I'm no scholar - just someone who wants to be left alone to
go hang out in peace with squirrels in the park. (Where people
walk up and let their dogs off a leash to scare them away, then
calmly put the dog back on the leash and leave - sometimes two
or three times in a single visit. Totally deniable as
harassment. Get the picture?)


Eleanor White








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                         Re: Orb Study Site - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 17:26:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 10:44:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Orb Study Site - Hebert


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 16:02:41 -0400
>Subject: Re: Orb Study Site

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 10:06:44 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Orb Study Site

>>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 20:34:15 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: Orb Study Site
>><snip>

>>>For some orb sanity try:

>>>http://brumac.8k.com/orb1.html

<snip>

>>So if orbs are real 3D objects, they are only visible from the
>>"front", and they don't reflect in a mirror. Nor do they cast
>>shadows.

Bruce:

Being an optical physicist, can you offer an explanation as to
why the "orb" flashes are only visible from the front but there
are no reflections in the mirror and no shadows?  (seriously)

No reflections, no shadows ===>VAMPIRES!

Mmwwaahaha, Happy Halloween!


A. Hebert <grinning wickedly>







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                Re: The Official Report Black Hole - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 21:30:19 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 10:46:23 -0500
Subject: Re: The Official Report Black Hole - Friedman


>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 20:13:35 +0100
>Subject: Re: The Official Report Black Hole

>>From: Simon Hicks <slh.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:09:30 +0800
>>Subject: The Official Report Black Hole

>>While reading Hynek's UFO Report the other day, it struck me
>>that there have been many cases where the military witness has
>>allegedly filed a report of their experience with
>>superiors/intelligence.

>>Has _any_ attempt been made to track these reports as to where
>>in the hierarchy these reports are sent? Any sort of
>>paper/contact/report trail established i.e. not only filing
>>cabinets but also eyes and ears exposed to the reports on their
>>way to their ultimate resting place?

><snip>

>In the United Kingdom, procedures for investigating UFO reports
>from military personnel have varied over the years. During my
>tour of duty on the Ministry of Defence's UFO project, no
>distinction was made between reports from the public and reports
>from the military. They were reported to the same office and
>investigated in the same way.

>However, this was not always the case, and on some occasions in
>the history of the project, reports from Service personnel were
>handled separately, by the Defence Intelligence Staff.
>Ufologists carrying out research in the UK's National Archives
>need to take this into account. They also need to be imaginative
>in carrying out their research, looking beyond references to
>"UFOs" and checking files with titles such as "Unorthodox
>Aircraft".

>Best wishes,

>Nick Pope

In the United States there was the October 20, 1969, memo from
USAF General Carroll Bolender who had been very much involved in
the development of the Lunar Excursion Module which worked
successfully in July, 1969. He was asked to review Project Blue
Book. He stated "Moreover, reports of unidentified flying
objects which could affect national security are made in
accordance with JANAP (Joint Army Navy Air Force Publication)146
or Air Force Manual 55-11,and are not part of the Blue Book
system".In discussing the fact that if BB was closed the public
wouldn't have a place to report sightings......

"However, as already stated, reports of UFOs which could affect
national security would continue to be handled through the
standard Air Force Procedures designed for this purpose". BB was
not on the distribution list for either regulation. I spoke with
Bolender who confirmed that there was a separate system which
was concerned about national security situations such as a UFO
flying down the runway at a SAC base where nuclear weapons were
stationed.

Dr. Hynek was very anxious to get a copy of the Bolender memo
when I told him about it at a MUFON Conference in San Francisco
about 1979. It apparently was a great surprise to him and
indicated he had been left out of the system.


Stan Friedman








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             Cops & Saucers: Law Enforcement & UFOs 1957 To 1981

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 23:17:58 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 10:50:53 -0500
Subject: Cops & Saucers: Law Enforcement & UFOs 1957 To 1981


Greetings to Fellow Listarians,

Cops and Saucers: Law Enforcement and UFOs - 1957 To 1981, is
now available for those collecting the Audio History of Ufology
series.

This is Volume 8 in the on-going research series and contains 41
recordings and over 12 hours running time in MP3 format.

Many of these recordings have never been released or known to
exist before and some are golden oldies that haven't been heard
in decades.

From Levelland, Texas to Portage County and everything in
between and beyond, it is the largest single source of research
case recordings dealing with UFOs and law enforcement ever
produced.

A donation of $25 for the preservation project is requested. You
can PayPal your donation using my email address or send a check
to:

Wendy Connors
P.O. Box 8552
Albuquerque, NM 87198

Donation includes postage and handling to anywhere in the world.
Visit my website for other available titles in the series.

Why just read about the case when you can listen to the people
who were involved!


Wendy Connors
www.fadeddiscs.com







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   Oct > Oct 31

                         Re: Gordon Cooper - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 00:21:17 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 10:53:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Rudiak


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 13:39:41 EDT
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 13:38:40 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 18:33:54 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

><snip>

>>>BTW: In his attack on Cooper's book, Oberg has distorted what
>>>Cooper wrote about photographs showing car license plates that
>>>he said he took from orbit. Cooper did _not_ say the plates were
>>>"readable" as Oberg claims. What Cooper actually said was, and I
>>>quote:

>>>"I was shown a few pictures - including some unbelievable
>>>closeups of car license plates ..."

>>>Cooper _never_ said the license plates were readable. Did Cooper
>>>misremember some events? Perhaps. Everyone does. Including
>>>Oberg.

><snip>

>This is really desperate grasping at straws. Cooper clearly
>implies that he could read the car license plates, otherwise why
>say the purported space photos of the license plates at Area 51
>were "unbelieveable closeups"?

>In any case it is utterly ridiculous that Cooper could take
>ultra-high resolution photos showing the rectangular shape of
>car license plates from three hundred miles away through the
>dirty distorted Gemini windows using only a shaky human
>_hand- held_ camera and somehow avoid motion blurring the tiny
>details, and at a grazing slant angle through three hundred plus
>miles of murky atmosphere instead of looking straight down (when
>atmospheric distortion is at a minimum). Simple calculation
>shows that just to see the "squareness" of a car license plate,
>a minimum of 4 x 2 pixels in resolution, without even being able
>to read the letters, using the 1250 mm focal length I think I
>read posted here, would be about 30 x 15 feet minimum
>resolution, for fine five-micron film grain. This would make it
>virtually impossible even to see an entire car, let alone
>"unbelievable closeups of car license plates."

The Questar telescope used as the telephoto had a 3.5 inch or 89
mm aperature and a resolution of about 1 arc second. If photos
were taken at Gemini 5 perigee (closest approach) of about 101
miles, resolution in feet would be about 2.6 feet. That would be
just about enough to resolve the presence of a car, but nowhere
close to seeing a license plate.

(To resolve the presence of a license plate would take a
telescope aperature 15-20 times greater than the Questar scope.
That's about Hubble size.)

That 2.6 foot resolution would be perpendicular to the direction
of travel, whose resolution would be limited by motion smear,
about 25 feet for a 1/1000th second shutter speed.

When I took film grain into account, the resolution could be
degraded slightly perpendicular to the motion. I assumed a fine
grain film capable of resolving 100 lines/mm. When I worked that
out it came to 3.8 feet maximum resolution.

The 12-15 foot figure in my post referred to resolution at Area
51 at closest approach, the actual distance depending on the
altitude of the spacecraft, but about 3 to 4 times further away
than looking straight down at perigee. That's not good enough to
see license plates, but more than enough to resolve hangars
hundreds of feet in size and the superlong runway on the dry
lake bed half a dozen miles in length.

Thus despite the smokescreen Oberg tried to throw up, the base
at Area 51 would have been easily seen with optical system and
camera Cooper was using.

To get some idea just how wrong Oberg is about this, click on
the following link to see a photo of the Groom Lake/Area 51
region taken by Tom Mahood:

http://www.serve.com/mahood/nellis/gallery/groomair.jpg

This photo was taken from a plane north of Groom Lake rather
than south, as Cooper would have been. The distance to the base
is probably in the neighborhood of 30 miles. Several white dots
in the picture represent large buildings at the base.

Remember than this low-res jpeg is at least an order of
magnitude lower resolution than Cooper's film was probably
capable of. Cooper's telephoto would also have brought the base
in about twice as close, Cooper would have had a much higher
vantage point, ~30 degrees instead of Mahood's ~3 degrees, and
Mahood was actually looking through several times the air mass
that Cooper would have been looking through. Remarkably the base
still does not disappear in Mahood's photo despite all that
"thick atmosphere" that Oberg claimed would obscure Cooper's
view in "dust and haze." Oberg's claim is pure scientific BS.

Again the point is Cooper had a very good view and his telephoto
optical system was capable of taking very high quality images of
the base at Area 51. There is nothing here to contradict
Cooper's story.

I would like to point out that Cooper's license plate tale was
the ONLY thing clearly wrong with Cooper's Area 51 story in his
book. Oberg was certainly right to point it out.

But everything else Oberg wrote to debunk Cooper's Area 51 story
was either dead wrong, confabulated, self-contradictory,
unverifiable, or gross misrepresentations of what Cooper
actually said. I found about 2 dozen instances of this in
Oberg's space.com article.

That's two dozen "mistakes" for Oberg vs. only one for Cooper.
Anybody care to guess who I find more believable?


David Rudiak








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                            Time Running/Run Out?

From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 13:59:56 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 11:02:38 -0500
Subject: Time Running/Run Out?


Einstein Podolsky & Rosen set up an experiment aimed at
clarifying 'quantum mystery' of entanglement. But it didn't. So
Bell, a Scot, worked out the theoretical framework needed for
verification or otherwise, and Aspect (French) later did the
actual experiments.

Maybe reluctantly Einstein said "It is possible that there exist
emanations that are still unknown to us. Do you remember how
electrical currents and unseen waves were laughed at?"

http://online.itp.ucsb.edu/online/colloq/aspect1/oh/41.html

From Aspect himself "Instantaneous change! Faster than light
signalling?"

Review at:

http://www.spaceandmotion.com/Wolff-Einstein-EPR-Experiment.htm

"1. They link events at separate locations without known fields
or matter."

"2. They do not diminish with distance; a million miles is the
same as an inch."

"3. They appear to act with speed greater than light."

Apparent conclusion #1 -
* there is a force acting on quantum level (on particles) which
is instantaneous over arbitrary distances *

Strangely the establishment let the dust gather over this
discovery.

Later: Allais Effect

http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf074/sf074a05.htm

"The result obtained by Allais (1954) concerning the shift of
the oscillation plane of the pendulum during eclipse was
observed again by G. Jeverdan in 1961 and then later in 1970 was
observed again by Allen and Saxl (1971)."

In 1999 NASA noisily previewed test of "Allais Effect" - of total
eclipses on Foucault pendulums.

http://www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/link=/headline_universe/eclipse_gravity.html

"Noever [NASA] doesn't expect to find proof to support Allais,
but believes such a theory must be investigated."

Note - NASA commonly announces "mysteries" they can later debunk
with mundane causes. Didn't seem to work in this case!

In correspondence - with Noever - I recommended using gyroscopes
instead of pendula (more sensitive) but NASA's protocols seemed
'conservative' - i.e. not aimed at best detection of anomalies:

http://www.perceptions.couk.com/uef/ansci4.html#tom

After the eclipse - which also 'produced/caused' waves of
earthquakes from Greece, Turkey to Taiwan, Japan with thousands
of fatalities - there was one 'wait and see' article from NASA:

http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/ast12oct99_1.htm

then deafening silence!

Think we can ignore subsequent claims of "atmospheric cooling =
gravity change" and "ground cooling = tilt" 'cos either would
take much too long (not instantaneous) and produce only tiny
effects - nowhere near actual results.

Apparent conclusion #2 - * there is a force acting on macro
level (on gyroscopes, pendula and whole continents) which is
instantaneous over astronomical distances - and theoretically
'universal' *

By definition all advanced beings in Galaxy/Universe should know
this force and be modulating it for real-time comms - as we
modulate e.m.r for 'slow radio/TV' - and be manipulating it for
their own purposes (as we manipulate nuclear for propulsion &
energy etc).

More importantly, _all_ advanced beings using that force would
have instantaneously been made aware of an anomalous "blip" -
among constant beacons and data streams - at 5:29:45am on July
16, 1945, from Trinity Site in New Mexico, U.S.A - later to be
followed by others.

This fact is likely not news to some powerful agencies - maybe
for decades

http://www.perceptions.couk.com/reports.txt

Find "Eisenhower"


Cheers

Ray D

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Perceptions" http://www.perceptions.couk.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






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   Oct > Oct 31

                                Beyond Betty

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 08:56:24 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 11:23:01 -0500
Subject: Beyond Betty


Source: Foster's Sunday Citizen - New Hampshire

http://www.fosters.com/October_2004/10.31.04/news/sun_1031b.asp

10-31-04


Beyond Betty: Region Rich In UFO Lore
by James Baker

Staff Writer

It was late one Thursday morning, and Peter Geremia had to keep
his comments brief. An old friend was going to be buried in
Exeter in a short while, and he didn't want to be late for the
service.

"Betty Hill was a great lady," said Geremia, director of the New
Hampshire chapter of the Mutual UFO Network.

"She had a way about her that credibility not only to her own UFO
experience, but to the entire UFO phenomenon."

Hill, 85, a Portsmouth resident who died recently after a battle
with lung cancer, became an international celebrity in the early
1960s when she and her husband Barney claimed to have been
abducted by aliens in the White Mountains while returning home
from a trip to Canada. Their story became public when a Boston
newspaper published transcripts of her encounter related while
she was under hypnosis.

Geremia said that despite Betty Hill's credibility, he doubts
whether her death will have an impact on whether people believe
in UFOs.

"Her abduction gained a great deal of notoriety, but there have
been many other UFO incidents - many of them right here in New
England."

On July 24, 1951, 10 years before the Hills' alleged encounter,
New Hampshire's first recorded UFO sighting took place in
Portsmouth when two military personnel reported seeing a gray,
200-foot-long tubular object with fins at one end flying at 2,000
feet at a speed of approximately 1,000 miles per hour.

Over the course of the next 50 years, at least 50 more sightings
were reported in the Granite State, none more famous than the one
that took place in Exeter on Sept. 3, 1965.

Details of the incident were recorded in Project Blue Book, a
21-year Air Force documentation of the UFO phenomenon. Starting
in 1948, the group investigated 12,600 reports, eventually
assuming the role of official debunker of UFO's for the U.S.
government before disbanding in 1969.

During its existence, Project Blue Book was unable to explain 701
reports, including the Exeter sighting, which later became the
subject of the book, "Incident at Exeter" by John G. Fuller.

At approximately 2 a.m., 18-year-old Norman Muscarello was
hitchhiking home when he first noticed an unusual light in the
sky. As the light drew closer, Muscarello could see an
elliptical-shaped object he later described to authorities as
being 90 feet in diameter with a row of red lights around it.

As the object hovered above him, Muscarello took the opportunity
to run to a nearby house. Finding nobody home, Muscarello flagged
down a passing car driven by a middle-aged couple who drove him
to the Exeter Police Station.

At about 3 a.m., Muscarello and Exeter Police Officer Eugene
Bertrand returned to the scene where the incident began. As the
two men walked into an open field in the direction of a horse
corral, an object began to rise from behind two pine trees,
lighting the whole area with a reddish hue.

After hovering for a short period of time about 100 feet above
the ground, the object suddenly took off at a rapid rate of speed
and disappeared in the blink of an eye.

Bertrand, who had been in the Air Force for four years and knew
military aircraft, would later insist the object was like nothing
he had ever seen before.

Neighboring Maine and Massachusetts have had their fair share of
UFO sightings as well. Dating back to March 1945 through 2001, 64
sightings were reported in Maine to the National UFO Reporting
Center, none of which were adequately explained by authorities.

In nearby Newburyport, Mass., two sightings were reported in
recent years, neither of which were explained.

On Dec. 23, 1998, a witness reported seeing two green fireballs-
one directly above the other-that descended perpendicular to the
horizon before disappearing below the tree line.

Ten months later, another witness reported having observed a very
bright light over the water where the Merrimac River meets the
Atlantic Ocean. The light, which the witness described as being
three times brighter than the brightest star in the sky, moved
slowly from left to right about 30 degrees above the horizon
before suddenly vanishing.

Are each of these sightings evidence that alien civilization
exists and is visiting earth?

That depends on who you ask.

Kenneth Olum, a research professor at the Institute of Cosmology
at Tufts University in Medford, Mass., says he's skeptical about
any reports from people who claim they've observed a UFO.

"These reports should not be treated as reliable evidence.
Effects in the atmosphere can create these odd sightings, and in
many cases, that's what people are seeing."

But the scientist in him won't allow Olum to categorically say
that aliens don't exist.

"On the contrary, the mathematical odds would strongly suggest
there are alien civilizations out there, but they're not here
observing us," he said.

Meet the new boss

David Jacobs would disagree. He's never met Betty Hill, but has
interviewed many like her.

An associate professor of history at Temple University, Jacobs
began researching the controversy over unidentified flying
objects in America back in the mid 1960s.

The author of numerous books on the subject, Jacobs has conducted
more than 900 hypnotic regressions with individuals who claimed
to have been inducted.

In an interview with Omni magazine several years ago, Jacobs
discussed his third book, The Threat: What the Aliens Really
Want And How They Plan to Get It.

In the book, Jacobs concludes through feedback he received from
his subjects that aliens are not only visiting earth, but are
here on a specific mission.

"What we have here is an abduction program, a breeding program,
which accounts for all the reproductive activity that we see, and
a hybridization program, which is why people (in regression
hypnosis) see hybrids all the time -as babies, as toddlers, as
adolescents, and then as adults.

"And then finally, I think this is all leading to an integration
program in which ultimately these hybrids, who look very human,
will be integrating into this society. And who will eventually, I
assume, be in control here because they do have superior
technology and superior physiological abilities that we do not
have. We would therefore become sort of second class citizens."

As sure as Jacobs is of his theory, other experts believe
regression hypnosis is unreliable at best, and offer no proof
that aliens exist.

In a recent telephone interview, Pamela Freyd, executive director
of The False Memory Syndrome Foundation in Philadelphia, said
people can sincerely and truly come to believe things that may or
may not be true.

"Our findings suggest alien abductions are the product of
similarly based practitioners who ask their clients leading
questions during therapy.

"Memories are reconstructed from bits and fragments and
reinterpretations; they're not videotape. In other words,
hypnosis is not a reliable tool and memory is not a fixed thing .
People can recall what they want to recall or what they're
encouraged to recall, even if the events never occurred."

Having said that, Freyd said she would never totally discount the
possibility of the existence of alien life.

"I think it would be wonderful if it were true. Unfortunately
right now, science fiction movies are our best bet for a close
encounter."

The search goes on

Actually, the best hope for a conclusive answer may lie in the
research being done at the SETI (Search for Extraterrestrial
Intelligence) Institute in Mountain View, California.

In the past there have been several unexplained intriguing
signals detected in SETI experiments.

The most famous of these was the "Wow" signal picked up at the
Ohio State University Big Ear Observatory on the night of Aug.
15, 1977.

As on every other night, Big Ear was searching the skies for an
alien signal and recording its observations. But as he was going
over the printout sheet, Jerry Ehman, a professor at Franklin
University in Columbus, Ohio, noticed a string of characters and
numbers reading, "6EQUJ5.

Not only was the signal extremely strong, researchers concluded
it almost certainly came from outside the Earth.

In the ensuing 27 years, numerous attempts to relocate the "Wow"
signal have been made but to no avail. But that won't dissuade
scientists from continuing the search.

In a 2002 issue of the Astrophysical Journal, veteran UFO signal
hunter Robert Gray had this to say when asked about the
possibility of life being, "out there."

"Over the last half century, scientists have developed a theory
of cosmic evolution that predicts that life is a natural
phenomenon likely to develop on planets with suitable
environmental conditions. Scientific evidence shows that life
arose on Earth relatively quickly, suggesting that life will
occur on similar planets orbiting sun-like stars.

"Additionally, one should keep in mind that we are only one
planet around a very ordinary star. There are roughly 400 billion
other stars in our galaxy and nearly 100 billion other galaxies.
It would be extraordinary if we were the only thinking beings in
all these enormous realms."








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                     Nevada Day Celebrate The UFO State

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 11:28:17 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 11:28:17 -0500
Subject: Nevada Day Celebrate The UFO State




Source: The North Lake Tahoe Bonanza - Nevada

http://www.tahoebonanza.com/article/20041029/OUTDOORS/110290015

10-29-04

Nevada Day: Celebrate The UFO State

This Sunday, Oct. 31, the state of Nevada will be 140 years old.
As you may know, it suffered a premature birth in 1864.

The normal rules and conditions for statehood were not followed.
The United States invaded the Nevada Territory because Nevada
had WMDs, "wide mineral deposits" of gold and silver.

The Comstock Lode was discovered in 1859, and Virginia City
became the original "Income Village" of Nevada.

The following is a brief history of Nevada's connection with
astronomy and space exploration. It's just a little bit shorter
than the long version.

It was in Virginia City that Virginia Lee "Jennie" James was
born on May 16, 1864 on the side of Mount Davidson.

So who was Jennie James, and what was her contribution to
astronomy? In 1889 she became the mother of Edwin Hubble in the
state of Missouri.

And Edwin Hubble was the most celebrated astronomer of the 20th
century. He is the "Hubble" in the Hubble Space Telescope.

A 1907 Nobel Laureate in Physics also lived in Virginia City as
a child in the 1850s. He was Albert Michelson who with Edward
Morley performed the famous Michelson-Morley experiment that
established the speed of light as a fundamental constant.

In more modern times, at least one person crossing Nevada
noticed that it greatly resembled the desolation of the moon in
certain places.

It was because of this that Apollo astronauts used Nevada in the
1960s as a training site for future manned explorations of the
moon.

The area used, appropriately known as Lunar Crater Volcanic
Field, covers more than 100 square miles in southern Nevada.

Admittedly, the above is not much to brag about. But in one
"outer space" field, depending upon whom you talk to, Nevada for
once ranks right at the top of all the states in the Union.
Nevada is known throughout the world as the UFO State.

Consider the fact that Highway 375 north of Las Vegas, between
Tonopah and Ash Springs, was designated as the "Extraterrestrial
Highway" by Governor Bob Miller in 1996.

It received this honor because of the high incidence of UFOs
appearing in its night skies. As far as I know, Nevada is the
only state with a designated Extraterrestrial Highway.

It is also the state that houses the worst kept top-secret, the
notorious Area 51.

Area 51, a part of the Nellis Air Force Base in southern Nevada,
didn't officially exist until recently.

This is where the government supposedly hides all of its
captured aliens, flying saucers and spaceships.

Of course, this is all nonsense, but you can be arrested for
taking pictures of the area.

Signs around Area 51 warn that "Use of Deadly Force (is)
Authorized"; apparently, you can lose more than a few dollars by
being curious in the area.

So what other state can compete with Nevada for recognition as
the UFO State?

The answer is New Mexico. A UFO crashed (really) just in time
near the slowly- being-boarded-up and abandoned city of Roswell
in 1947.

The crash changed everything. The boards are down for one thing
and Roswell is doing quite well now.

It draws thousands of devotees and curious tourists to its
annual UFO/Alien festivals, and the Roswell International UFO
Museum and Research Center throughout the year. Roswell makes
money from UFOs.

But, that doesn't matter. We know that the aliens recovered from
the crash near Roswell are being kept in Area 51, Nevada! Happy
birthday, Nevada, the UFO State.