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   Nov

                          UFO UpDates Mailing List
                                  Nov 2004

  Nov 1:

   Re: Shielding & Harassment - Smith - James Smith [71]
   Re: Orb Study Site - LeClair - Aaron LeClair [21]
   Web-Links To Your Sites - Rich Reynolds [13]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Sparks - Brad Sparks [21]
   Re: The Official Report Black Hole - Sparks - Brad Sparks [32]
   Re: The Official Report Black Hole - Sparks - Brad Sparks [2]
   India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online - Daniel Guenther [13]
   Re: Flying Blankets Threaten Satellites - Colvin - Terry W. Colvin [49]
   Re: Orb Study Site - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [38]
   Re: Igor Returns - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [17]
   Mystery 'Big Bird' Legend In The News - Greg Boone [204]
   Gordon Cooper & The 'Space Aliens' - Lan Fleming [50]
   Limboids - Terry W. Colvin [65]
   Infrared Foo Fighters? - Terry W. Colvin [54]
   Re: Cops & Saucers: Law Enforcement & UFOs 1957 To - John Hayes [11]
   Isaac Asimov's Super Quiz - Greg Boone [7]
   Re: Gordon Cooper & The 'Space Aliens' - Oberg - Jim Oberg [35]
   Re: Orb Study Site - Smith - James Smith [10]
   Re: Cops & Saucers: Law Enforcement & UFOs 1957 To - Daniel Guenther
   [14]
   Re: Re: Gordon Cooper & The 'Space Aliens' - Hall - Richard Hall [12]
   Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online - - Don Ledger [2]
   Re: Limboids - King - Kyle King [67]
   Re: Igor Returns - Ledger - Don Ledger [18]
   Secrecy News -- 11/01/04 - Steven Aftergood [156]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Rudiak - David Rudiak [97]
   Re: Limboids - LeClair - Aaron LeClair [12]
   Re: Limboids - King - Kyle King [10]
   Re: Orb Study Site - LeClair - Aaron LeClair [3]

  Nov 2:

   Re: Shielding & Harassment - White - Eleanor White [176]
   Re: Orb Study Site - King - Kyle King [20]
   Re: Cops & Saucers: Law Enforcement & UFOs 57-81 - - Richard Hall [11]
   Re: Limboids - LeClair - Aaron LeClair [5]
   Re: Cops & Saucers: Law Enforcement & UFOs 57-81 - - Wendy Connors [36]
   Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online - - Rich Reynolds [4]
   Re: Limboids - Reynolds - Rich Reynolds [15]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Sparks - Brad Sparks [17]
   Re: Limboids - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [19]
   Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [8]
   James Randi's "$1 Million Challenge" - UFO UpDates - Toronto [119]
   Royal Observatory Shuts Eye On The Heavens - UFO UpDates - Toronto [58]
   U.S. Deploys Satellite Jamming System - UFO UpDates - Toronto [65]
   Human Races - UFO UpDates - Toronto [52]
   'Surrey Corridor' Out Of This World - UFO UpDates - Toronto [361]
   Plans 1 Through 8 From Outer Space - UFO UpDates - Toronto [231]

  Nov 3:

   Re: Human Races - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [50]
   Re: Human Races - Boone - Greg Boone [31]
   Re: Orb Study Site - LeClair - Aaron LeClair [14]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 44 - John Hayes [449]
   Re: Limboids - Dickenson - Ray Dickenson [25]
   Minority UFO Report - UFO UpDates - Toronto [87]
   SciScoop Reader Describes UFO Encounter - UFO UpDates - Toronto [41]
   Of Dolan Hynek & Oberg - Jerry Cohen [36]
   UFO Watchtower Points Eyes To Sky - UFO UpDates - Toronto [22]
   Re: Of Dolan Hynek & Oberg - Hall - Richard Hall [10]
   Re: Limboids - Reynolds - Rich Reynolds [60]
   Re: Orb Study Site - Chace - David Chace [19]
   Secrecy News -- 11/03/04 - Steven Aftergood [86]
   USAF Looks Into Teleportation - UFO UpDates - Toronto [73]
   Re: Shielding & Harassment - Smith - James Smith [54]
   HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings 11-03-04 - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO
   Research [342]

  Nov 4:

   Filer's Files #46 -- 2004 - George A. Filer [534]
   Re: Gemini 11 UFO? - Smith - James Smith [15]
   Re: Human Races - White - Eleanor White [5]
   Re: Orb Study Site - King - Kyle King [60]
   Re: Shielding & Harassment - Reynolds - Rich Reynolds [18]
   Re: Limboids - Dickenson - Ray Dickenson [31]
   Gen. Wesley Clark On UFOs - David Rudiak [18]
   Re: Shielding & Harassment - White - Eleanor White [116]
   Why Are India & China Tight-Lipped About UFOs? - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [48]
   Marketing Earth To Alien Civilizations - UFO UpDates - Toronto [185]
   Articles By William F. Hamilton III - UFO UpDates - Toronto [16]
   Re: Gen. Wesley Clark On UFOs - Chace - David Chace [41]
   Re: Orb Study Site - Taylor - Ellis C Taylor [34]
   Re: Human Races - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [22]
   Re: Limboids - Reynolds - Rich Reynolds [32]
   Re: Why Are India & China Tight-Lipped About UFOs? - Greg Boone [32]
   Re: Human Races - Shough - Martin Shough [17]
   Re: Human Races - Miller - Stuart Miller [45]

  Nov 5:

   Re: Limboids - King - Kyle King [41]
   NWSURC Recent Sighting Reports 10-31-04 - Barb Campbell [110]
   NWSURC Recent Sighting Reports - 11-03-04 - Barb Campbell [89]
   Second UFO Investigator Joins NWSURC - Barb Campbell [41]
   Re: Gemini 11 UFO? - Sparks - Brad Sparks [9]
   Re: Gen. Wesley Clark On UFOs - King - Kyle King [24]
   Audio History of Ufology Project - Wendy Connors [19]
   Re: Human Races - White - Eleanor White [17]
   Re: Shielding & Harassment - White - Eleanor White [63]
   Re: Time Running/Run Out? - Freeman - Kelly Freeman [34]
   Re: Gemini 11 UFO? - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [5]
   Graham Ennis's E-mail Address? - Giuliano 'Jimmy' Marinkovic [29]
   Re: Orb Study Site - Hatch - Larry Hatch [19]
   Re: Gen. Wesley Clark On UFOs - Hicks - Simon Hicks [5]
   Hopkinsville Goblins Make Good Halloween Story - Loren Coleman [145]
   Dugway's Expansion An Alien Concept? - UFO UpDates - Toronto [112]
   Chasing Aliens Perfectly Paranormal - Frank Warren [80]
   Re: Time Running Out? - Dickenson - Ray Dickenson [25]
   Re: Time Running Out? - Shough - Martin Shough [21]
   Re: Gen. Wesley Clark On UFOs - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [7]

  Nov 6:

   Re: Limboids - Reynolds - Rich Reynolds [17]
   Re: Gen. Wesley Clark On UFOs - Chace - David Chace [60]
   Re: Gemini 11 UFO? - Smith - James Smith [26]
   Re: Gemini 11 UFO? - Smith - James Smith [4]
   Re: Hopkinsville Goblins Make Good Halloween Story - Rich Reynolds [13]
   Re: Human Races - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [43]
   Re: Human Races - Wenger - Eric Wenger [43]
   Re: Time Running Out? - King - Kyle King [11]
   Re: Orb Study Site - King - Kyle King [62]
   Re: Dugway's Expansion An Alien Concept? - White - Eleanor White [10]
   Re: Gen. Wesley Clark On UFOs - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [5]
   Farmer's UFO Dream Becomes Reality - UFO UpDates - Toronto [39]
   Budd Hopkins' UFO Seminar NYC - 11-20-04 - Intruders Foundation [55]
   Alien Encounter In Bloomington Indiana - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO Research
   [600]
   Re: Gen. Wesley Clark On UFOs - Hicks - Simon Hicks [9]
   Re: Time Running Out? - Freeman - Kelly Freeman [17]
   Re: Time Running Out? - Freeman - Kelly Freeman [8]
   Re: Orb Study Site - Hatch - Larry Hatch [29]
   Signs Of Intelligent Life On Titan? - Colin Stevenson [9]
   Re: Limboids - King - Kyle King [18]

  Nov 7:

   Re: Limboids - Reynolds - Rich Reynolds [25]
   National Geographic's Search For Alien Life - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [63]
   Re: Signs Of Intelligent Life On Titan? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [7]
   Re: Limboids - Ledger - Don Ledger [17]
   Re: Signs Of Intelligent Life On Titan? - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [8]
   The Times Betty Hill Obituary - UFO UpDates - Toronto [60]
   'Inside' The 'USSR Majestic 12 Program' - Boris Shurinov [32]
   Re: Limboids - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [7]
   Cash-Landrun UFO Case - Terry W. Colvin [148]
   NSA/CSS UFO Documents Index - Terry W. Colvin [12]
   Anti-Hydrogen Propulsion - Terry W. Colvin [30]
   Re: Mexican Air Force FLIR Information - Sparks - Brad Sparks [9]
   UFO Watchers Visit Utah Desert - Frank Warren [12]
   Re: Human Races - Dickenson - Ray Dickenson [21]
   Largest Field Of Impact Craters Uncovered - Terry W. Colvin [35]
   UFO Archives For Sale Or Lease - Richard Hall [16]
   Re: Limboids - King - Kyle King [14]
   Re: Limboids - King - Kyle King [20]
   Subscriber Reminders - UFO UpDates - Toronto [18]
   Re: Limboids - Chace - David Chace [36]

  Nov 8:

   Re: Limboids - Reynolds - Rich Reynolds [10]
   Re: Human Races - Ledger - Don Ledger [12]
   Re: National Geographic's Search For Alien Life - - Nick Balaskas [33]
   Re: UFO Archives For Sale Or Lease - Chester - Keith Chester [27]
   Richard Hall - Rich Reynolds [11]
   Access To UK Secret Files Threatened By 'Asbestos' - UFO UpDates -
   Toronto [78]
   Re: Richard Hall - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [5]
   Re: National Geographic's Search For Alien Life - - Alfred Lehmberg [8]
   Re: Richard Hall - Reynolds - Rich Reynolds [5]
   Re: Human Races - Dickenson - Ray Dickenson [25]
   Re: Richard Hall - Groff - Terry Groff [22]
   Re: Signs Of Intelligent Life On Titan? - Nellesen - Don Nellesen [5]
   Re: Richard Hall - Hall - Richard Hall [3]
   Re: Access To UK Secret Files Threatened By - Greg Boone [20]
   Re: Beyond Roswell - Mantle - Philip Mantle [10]
   Secrecy News -- 11/08/04 - Steven Aftergood [108]
   Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online - - John Scheldroup [14]
   Re: Richard Hall - Hall - Richard Hall [11]
   Re: Richard Hall - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [15]
   Re: Richard Hall - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [7]

  Nov 9:

   UFO boom - Unidentified Foreign Object - Terry Groff [58]
   Re: Orb Study Site - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [13]
   Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online - - Terry Groff [7]
   Richard Hall - Alien Invasion 1966-67 - Larry Hatch [28]
   Re: Richard Hall - Matteson - Gary Matteson [9]
   Re: Richard Hall - Connors - Wendy Connors [37]
   Re: Limboids - Reynolds - King - Kyle King [18]
   Pilot's Estate Files Lawsuit - UFO UpDates - Toronto [141]
   Crank Calls Fear Over Freedom Act - UFO UpDates - Toronto [58]
   UFO Monthly? - Stuart Miller [13]
   On The 70th Anniversary of Carl - UFO UpDates - Toronto [47]
   UFOs In India's Heaven Of Culture & Arts! - UFO UpDates - Toronto [33]
   Birmingham University's New Crypto Dept - UFO UpDates - Toronto [8]
   Re: Richard Hall - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [16]
   Re: Richard Hall - Alien Invasion 1966-67 - Hall - Richard Hall [30]
   Re: Richard Hall - Alien Invasion 1966-67 - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [12]
   Re: Richard Hall - Wise - William M. Wise [6]
   I'm After The Aliens That Beat Up Bob - UFO UpDates - Toronto [74]
   Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online - - James Smith [10]
   Books For Sale By Richard Hall - Richard Hall [68]
   Re: Limboids - Reynolds - Rich Reynolds [9]
   Re: Signs Of Intelligent Life On Titan? - Stevenson - Colin Stevenson
   [14]
   Re: Birmingham University's New Crypto Dept - - Don Ledger [4]
   Re: Crank Calls Fear Over Freedom Act - Ledger - Don Ledger [14]
   Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online - - John Scheldroup [45]
   Kevin Randle? - Frank Warren [4]
   Re: Richard Hall - Alien Invasion 1966-67 - Hall - Richard Hall [5]
   Re: Richard Hall - Hall - Richard Hall [8]
   Re: Richard Hall - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [30]
   Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online - - Terry Groff [7]
   Re: Books For Sale By Richard Hall - Boone - Greg Boone [17]
   Re: Limboids - Reynolds - Rich Reynolds [16]
   Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online - - Kyle King [43]
   Re: Signs Of Intelligent Life On Titan? - Smith - James Smith [1]
   Re: Orb Study Site - LeClair - Aaron LeClair [3]
   Richard Hall Revised Book List - Richard Hall [65]
   Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online - - John Scheldroup [29]
   Re: Signs Of Intelligent Life On Titan? - King - Kyle King [23]
   Re: Direct PayPal Link to Dick Hall - Groff - Terry Groff [7]

  Nov 10:

   'Foreign Warplane' Caused UK Boom - UFO UpDates - Toronto [36]
   Re: Kevin Randle? - LeClair - Aaron LeClair [4]
   Re: Orb Study Site - King - Kyle King [41]
   Re: Books For Sale By Richard Hall - Hall - Richard Hall [6]
   Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online - - Terry Groff [19]
   Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online - - Kyle King [33]
   Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online - - Simon Hicks [2]
   Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online - - Barry Taylor [27]
   Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online - - Amy Hebert [23]
   Re: Richard Hall - Hall - Richard Hall [9]
   Re: Signs Of Intelligent Life On Titan? - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein
   [20]
   Where Were The Pros During Mexico City Flap? - Craig Parsons [35]

  Nov 11:

   NWSURC Recent Sightings & News 11-09-04 - Barb Campbell [269]
   Re: Signs Of Intelligent Life On Titan? - Stevenson - Colin Stevenson
   [35]
   Re: Where Were The Pros During Mexico City Flap? - - Greg Boone [24]
   Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online - - Josh Goldstein [10]
   Re: Signs Of Intelligent Life On Titan? - Stevenson - Colin Stevenson
   [17]
   Re: Secrecy News -- 11/10/04 - Aftergood - Steven Aftergood [142]
   Re: Kevin Randle? - Randle - Kevin Randle [21]
   Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term - Steven Kaeser [19]
   Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online - - James Smith [4]
   Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online - - James Smith [14]
   Re: Books For Sale By Richard Hall - Smith - James Smith [24]
   UFO Monthly - Stuart Miller [5]
   Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online - - James Smith [11]
   NASA Shoots For Mach 10 - Steven Kaeser [134]
   NSA/CSS UFO Documents Index? - Joshua Dease [6]
   Re: Kevin Randle? - Warren - Frank Warren [5]
   Re: Where Were The Pros During Mexico City Flap? - - Bruce Maccabee
   [23]
   Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online - - John Scheldroup [10]
   Southaven UFO Footage/Photos Needed - Scott Carr [15]
   Re: Signs Of Intelligent Life On Titan? - LeClair - Aaron LeClair [2]
   The UFO Guy Comes To Boise - Terry Groff [66]
   UFO Review Issue 6 November 2004 - Stuart Miller [33]
   Hall Files Tax-Deductible Contribution - Richard Hall [50]
   Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? - Greg Boone [8]
   Re: Where Were The Pros During Mexico City Flap? - - Steven Kaeser [17]
   We Are All Safer - The NTSB & Conspiracies - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [168]
   Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? - - Larry Cekander [12]
   Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? - - Steven Kaeser [6]
   Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online - - Kyle King [24]
   Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online - - Kyle King [29]
   Re: Kevin Randle? - Warren - Frank Warren [15]
   Re: Where Were The Pros During Mexico City Flap? - - Kyle King [8]
   Re: Kevin Randle? - Boone - Evolbaby@aol.com [9]
   Re: Where Were The Pros During Mexico City Flap? - - Greg Boone [16]
   Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online - - John Scheldroup [4]
   Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term - King - Kyle King [116]
   Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? - - David Rudiak [6]

  Nov 12:

   European Spacecraft Prepares To Orbit Moon - Frank Warren [57]
   Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? - Myers - Royce J. Myers
   III [14]
   Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term - Myers - Royce J. Myers III
   [6]
   Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online - - Larry Hatch [8]
   Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? - Boone - Greg Boone [13]
   Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? - Boone - Greg Boone [22]
   IBM's Thomas 'Pop' Watson Sr. & UFOs? - Greg Boone [13]
   Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term - - Colin Stevenson [23]
   Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? - - Aarom LeClair [3]
   Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [96]
   The Real Face on Mars - UFO UpDates - Toronto [22]
   Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - UFO UpDates - Toronto [262]
   Friedman-Shostak Debate Last Days OnLine - Terry Groff [21]
   Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? - - Steven Kaeser [27]
   UFO Centre Touches Down In Maidstone - UFO UpDates - Toronto [77]
   Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [8]
   Re: Where Were The Pros During Mexico City Flap? - - Rich Reynolds [19]

  Nov 13:

   Re: The Real Face on Mars - King - Kyle King [18]
   Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB - - Wendy Connors [18]
   Re: The Real Face on Mars - King - Kyle King [6]
   Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? - Smith - James Smith [2]
   Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? - Myers - Royce J. Myers
   III [14]
   Re: European Spacecraft Prepares To Orbit Moon - - Carol Buckallew [12]
   Scientist's Shocked At Mars' Methane Emissions - Greg Boone [40]
   Re: The Real Face on Mars - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [8]
   Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - White - Eleanor White [5]
   Re: Where Were The Pros During Mexico City Flap? - - Kyle King [31]
   Re: The Real Face on Mars - Scheldroup - John Scheldroup [17]
   More UFO Book Titles For Sale - Richard Hall [27]
   Re: Kevin Randle? - LeClair - Aaron LeClair [3]
   Ithaca NY UFOs - Larry Hatch [35]
   UFO Top Secrets Revealed? - Roy Hale [24]
   Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? - Allan - Christopher Allan
   [27]
   Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB - - Kyle King [19]
   Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB - - Larry Hatch [31]
   Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? - - Gildas Bourdais [10]
   Re: European Spacecraft Prepares To Orbit Moon - - Martin Shough [2]
   Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Reynolds - Rich Reynolds [3]
   Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB - - Wendy Connors [6]
   Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? - - Nick Balaskas [28]

  Nov 14:

   Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term - - Aaron LeClair [5]
   Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Reynolds - Rich Reynolds [3]
   Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB - - Kyle King [16]
   Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB - - John Harney [9]
   Re: The Real Face on Mars - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [17]
   Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB - - Mac Tonnies [18]
   CSI & UFOs - Greg Boone [43]
   Re: Kevin Randle? - Sanchez-Ocejo - Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo [1]
   Re: The Real Face on Mars - Hall - Richard Hall [4]
   Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Hall - Richard Hall [4]
   Faded Discs Major Donation Acquisition - Wendy Connors [36]
   Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB - - Bob Shell [13]

  Nov 15:

   Re: Kevin Randle? - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [3]
   Re: UFO Top Secrets Revealed? - Pope - Nick Pope [9]
   Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? - - Ed Gehrman [6]
   Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? - - Steven Kaeser [32]
   Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB - - Richard Hall [3]
   Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term - - Colin Stevenson [20]
   Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term - Boone - greg Boone [51]
   Re: The Real Face on Mars - Leclair - Aaronn Leclair [11]
   Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB - - Alfred Lehmberg
   [5]
   Re: European Spacecraft Prepares To Orbit Moon - - James Smith [5]
   Re: Kevin Randle? - LeClair - Aaron LeClair [1]
   Re: The Real Face on Mars - LeClair - Aaron LeClair [6]
   Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB - - Greg Boone [13]
   Re: NSA/CSS UFO Documents Index? - Colvin - Terry W. Colvin [7]
   Who Scrawled 'Hi' On Mars? - Greg Boone [9]
   Secrecy News -- 11/14/04 - Steven Aftergood [136]
   Re: Faded Discs Major Donation Acquisition - White - Eleanor White [16]
   Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB - - Larry Hatch [9]
   Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Hatch - Larry Hatch [15]
   Re: The Real Face on Mars - Hatch - Larry Hatch [9]
   Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online - - Barry Taylor [11]
   Oregon Diamond-Shaped UFO Caught On Video - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO
   Research [129]
   UFO Research Queensland News 11-04 - Sheryl Gottschall [191]
   Sociology Related To Anomalies - Chris Burns [38]

  Nov 16:

   UFO Programme 'Panic' Gripped Ministry - UFO UpDates - Toronto [85]
   UFO Webcam - UFO UpDates - Toronto [29]
   Chupacabra Discoverers United - UFO UpDates - Toronto [72]
   SMART-1 Arrives At The Moon - UFO UpDates - Toronto [65]
   Top Scientist Asks Is Life All Just A Dream? - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [79]
   Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Shough - Martin Shough [31]
   Fort's Extraordinary Year 1883 - Ray Dickenson [91]
   Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB - - Alfred Lehmberg
   [57]
   Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term - Boone - Greg Boone [39]
   Re: Kevin Randle? - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [9]
   Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB - - James Smith [22]
   Re: Faded Discs Major Donation Acquisition - - Wendy Connors [23]
   Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Rich Reynolds [26]
   Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term - Miller - Stuart Miller
   [31]
   Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - White - Eleanor White [20]
   NWSURC Recently Reported Sightings - 11-15-04 - Barb Campbell [149]
   Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Hicks - Simon Hicks [35]
   Aliens May Be Preparing Us For Ultimate Encounter - Frank Warren [35]
   Dan Ackroyd & MUFON? - Frank Warren [7]
   Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON? - Groff - Terry Groff [3]
   Ted Phillips' Tatra Investigation - Larry Cekander [57]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 46 - John Hayes [665]
   Irony - Alfred Lehmberg [5]
   Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Ray Dickenson [42]

  Nov 17:

   Re: UFO Webcam - LeClair - Aaron LeClair [6]
   Additions To The WHY? Files 11-15-04 - Geoff Richardson [8]
   Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term - - Aaron LeClair [5]
   Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - LeClair - Aaron LeClair [11]
   Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term - Hatch - Larry Hatch [12]
   Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Hatch - Larry Hatch [42]
   Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON? - Hicks - Simon Hicks [2]
   Re: UFO Programme 'Panic' Gripped Ministry - Pope - Nick Pope [26]
   Dr. John Mack Accident Prosecution - Stuart Miller [24]
   Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser
   [13]
   Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB - - Richard Hall [31]
   Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON? - Hall - Richard Hall [5]
   Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON? - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [14]
   Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON? - Warren - Frank Warren [5]

  Nov 18:

   Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Dickenson - Ray Dickenson [31]

  Nov 17:

   Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON? - Hicks - Frank Warren [5]
   Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB - - Alfred Lehmberg
   [133]
   Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON? - Warren - Frank Warren [13]

  Nov 18:

   Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Reynolds - Rich Reynolds [19]
   Re: Top Scientist Asks Is Life All Just A Dream? - - Bruce Maccabee [3]
   Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON? - King - Kyle King [20]
   Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON? - Kaeser - Aaron LeClair [5]
   Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON? - Conte - Carrie Conte [12]
   Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term - Miller - Stuart Miller
   [14]
   Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term - Miller - Stuart Miller [5]
   Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term - Miller - Stuart Miller
   [17]
   Secrecy News -- 11/17/04 - Steven Aftergood [117]
   Re: UFO Webcam - White - Eleanor White [9]
   Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON? - Groff - Terry Groff [7]
   Board An Alien Craft? - Greg Boone [14]
   New Photos At SOCEX Site - Eustaquio Andrea Patounas [4]
   The UFO Triangle Houston-Smithers-Terrace BC - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO
   Research [172]
   Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON? - Huff - Bob Huff [10]
   Re: Top Scientist Asks Is Life All Just A Dream? - - Aaron LeClair [7]
   Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON? - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [32]
   Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term - - Alfred Lehmberg [8]
   Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON? - Warren - Frank Warren [15]
   Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON? - LeClair - Aaron LeClair [5]
   Mack The Life - Will Bueche - John E Mack Institute [209]
   Secrecy News -- 11/18/04 - Steven Aftergood [95]
   Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON? - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [30]
   Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON? - Bueche - Will Bueche - John E Mack Institute
   [30]
   Another Salla Exo Paper - Stuart Miller [7]
   Ozone Hole Leaves Aliens Gasping - UFO UpDates - Toronto [58]
   Major Conference On Crashed UFOs - UFO UpDates - Toronto [115]

  Nov 19:

   Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON? - King - Kyle King [16]
   Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [10]
   Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON? - King - Kyle King [14]
   Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON? - Velez - John Velez [22]
   Re: UFO Webcam - LeClair - Aaron LeClair [16]
   Re: Board An Alien Craft? - LeClair - Aaron LeClair [11]
   Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON? - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [5]
   Re: Mack The Life - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [7]
   Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [3]
   Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Holman - Brett Holman [25]
   Down To Earth Newsletter - Roy Hale [8]
   'Hudson Valley UFO Sightings' Doc Duo Jailed - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [37]
   Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [4]
   Re: UFO Webcam - LeClair - Aaron LeClair [16]

  Nov 20:

   Hello! Is There Anybody Out There? - UFO UpDates - Toronto [84]
   Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Reynolds - Rich Reynolds [18]
   Re: Board An Alien Craft? - King - Kyle King [44]
   Of Cooper Oberg & Cohen - Jerry Cohen [33]
   Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Dickenson - Ray Dickenson [15]
   Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Hall - Richard Hall [11]
   Disclosure Australia Newsletter #18 - Diane Harrison [390]
   Re: Where Were The Pros During Mexico City Flap? - - Craig Parsons
   [170]
   Re: Ithaca NY UFOs - Barrow - Robert Barrow [265]
   HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 11-19-04 - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO
   Research [427]
   About That Alien Probe - Greg Boone [11]
   Shostack - Aaron LeClair [39]
   Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [10]
   Top Secret Black Triangles - UFO UpDates - Toronto [88]
   Re: Shostack - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [6]
   Re: Top Secret Black Triangles - Boone - Greg Boone [7]
   Re: Board An Alien Craft? - LeClair - Aaron LeClair [8]
   Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [6]
   Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [12]
   Re: Ithaca NY UFOs - Barrow - Larry Hatch [18]
   Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Harney - John Harney [10]
   Re: Ithaca NY UFOs - Sparks - Brad Sparks [17]

  Nov 21:

   Re: Shostack - White - Eleanor White [8]
   Just Letting You Know - Robert Frola [42]
   Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Hall - Richard Hall [15]
   Re: Shostack - Dickenson - Ray Dickenson [10]
   Software Firm Joins Search For Aliens - Terry W. Colvin [58]
   Re: Top Secret Black Triangles - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [10]
   Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [15]
   Man In Moon May Be Mayan - UFO UpDates - Toronto [79]

  Nov 22:

   Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Reynolds - Rich Reynolds [26]
   Secrecy News -- 11/21/04 - Steven Aftergood [115]
   Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Rimmer - John Rimmer [26]
   Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base? - Steven Kaeser [20]
   Re: Ithaca NY UFOs - Hatch - Larry Hatch [20]
   Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [8]
   Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [6]
   Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base? - - Diana Cammack [9]
   Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [38]
   Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base? - - Martin Shough [8]
   Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base? - King - Kyle King [13]
   Their Lid Is On - Alfred Lehmberg [65]
   Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Smith - James Smith [64]
   Re: Gemini 11 UFO - Smith - James Smith [2]
   Observations Of Apparent Exotic Propulsion - Bill Hamilton [11]
   APS Beats Up Bush's Moon-Mars Missions - Greg Boone [5]
   New Evidence For Localized Methane On Mars - Greg Boone [6]
   Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base? - - Don Ledger [5]
   Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - King - Kyle King [60]
   Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base? - - Nick Balaskas [29]
   Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Dickenson - Ray Dickenson [31]
   Re: Shostack - Allan - Christopher Allan [7]

  Nov 23:

   Enthusiasts Founded Center To Find Answers - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [180]
   UFO Encounters Possible At Mach 10+ - UFO UpDates - Toronto [80]
   Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base? - - Joe McGonagle [40]
   Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base? - - James Smith [6]
   Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base? - - Alfred Lehmberg [5]
   Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base? - Hall - Richard Hall [17]
   Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Rimmer - John Rimmer [40]
   Re: Gemini 11 UFO - Sparks - Brad Sparks [42]
   Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Groff - Terry Groff [13]
   Examine This! - Larry W. Bryant [157]
   Jeff Rense And His Anti-Semiticism - Stuart Miller [23]
   You Gotta Have Faith Building A UFO In China - Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
   [122]
   Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base? - Steven Kaeser [15]

  Nov 24:

   Spheres Over Tepoztlan Morelos Mexico - Scott Corrales [45]
   Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base? - King - Kyle King [4]
   Rense Responds To Anti-Semiticism Charge - UFO UpDates - Toronto [52]
   Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [49]
   Re: Gemini 11 UFO - Smith - James Smith [13]
   Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base? - King - Kyle King [30]
   U.S. Agencies Aware Of Mexican C26a Incident? - Geoff Richardson [13]
   Re: Shostack - White - Eleanor White [20]
   Re: HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - Vike - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO
   Research [426]
   Remote Viewing An Exciting New Technology - Nick Balaskas [73]
   Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base? - - John Scheldroup [6]
   365-24/7 UFO Radio Network? - Greg Boone [9]
   Happy Thanksgiving - Scott Corrales [4]
   Life Is Just A Dream/Many Worlds Hypotheses - Ray Dickenson [19]
   Thailand's Yee Peng Festival - Kyle King [10]
   Secrecy News -- 11/24/04 - Steven Aftergood [137]
   Serious 'Starchild' Problem - Lloyd Pye [133]

  Nov 25:

   NWSURC Recently Reported Sightings - 11-24-04 - Barb Campbell - NWSURC
   [106]
   Breaking Five Sightings In Houston BC - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO Research
   [9]
   Ray Bradbury 'We're the Alien Life' - UFO UpDates - Toronto [80]
   New Mysteries For Interlaken Theme Park - UFO UpDates - Toronto [75]
   Marfa Lights Article - UFO UpDates - Toronto [238]
   Found Devices Linked To Mysterious Booms - UFO UpDates - Toronto [44]
   Bigelow Space Module Flight Gets Okay - UFO UpDates - Toronto [87]
   Space Case Article On Mac Tonnies - UFO UpDates - Toronto [171]
   Researcher: 'We Are Not Alone' - UFO UpDates - Toronto [68]
   Re: Gemini 11 UFO - Sparks - Brad Sparks [104]
   Russian Ufological Archive For Sale - Nikolay Subbotin - RUFORS [16]
   Alien Abductions & Coffee Enemas - UFO UpDates - Toronto [87]
   Re: Thailand's Yee Peng Festival - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [15]
   Re: Space Case Article On Mac Tonnies - King - Kyle King [18]
   Re: Serious Starchild Problem - King - Kyle King [47]
   UFO UpDates Read In Russia - Larry Hatch [24]
   Re: Shostak - Sparks - Brad Sparks [11]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 47 - John Hayes [828]
   Re: Serious 'Starchild' Problem - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [26]
   Re: Shostack - Allan - Christopher Allan [40]
   Re: Space Case Article On Mac Tonnies - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [10]

  Nov 26:

   Re: Shostak - White - Eleanor White [18]
   Re: UFO UpDates Read In Russia - Hatch - Larry Hatch [9]
   Music & UFOs 6 Years On? - Roy Hale [10]
   Re: 365-24/7 UFO Radio Network? - LeClair - Aaron LeClair [14]
   Re: Music & UFOs 6 Years On? - Groff - Terry Groff [27]
   Re: Music & UFOs 6 Years On? - Matteson - Gary Matteson [13]
   Varginha Case Motion Picture In The Works - Scott Corrales [21]
   Good-Outcome UFO Abduction Stories? - James Smith [82]
   Re: Researcher: 'We Are Not Alone' - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [19]
   Re: Space Case Article On Mac Tonnies - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [4]
   Alien Abductions & Coffee Enemas - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [11]
   Re: Researcher: 'We Are Not Alone' - Allan - Christopher Allan [16]
   Re: Music & UFOs 6 Years On? - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [4]
   Submission Of Additional Ad For Review - Larry W. Bryant [28]

  Nov 27:

   The Dark Matters Radio Program - Don Ecker [30]
   Re: Serious 'Starchild' Problem - Pye - Lloyd Pye [15]
   Re: The Official Report Black Hole - Sparks - Brad Sparks [3]
   Re: Space Case Article On Mac Tonnies - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [17]
   Re: Music & UFOs 6 Years On? - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [15]
   Research Update From Faded Discs - Wendy Connors [34]
   Re: Researcher: 'We Are Not Alone' - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [4]
   All Things Pelican - Wendy Connors [30]

  Nov 28:

   Re: All Things Pelican - Weber - Bill Weber [23]
   Re: Good-Outcome UFO Abduction Stories? - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee
   [10]
   Re: 365-24/7 UFO Radio Network? - Boone - Greg Boone [37]
   UFO Group Says Sightings Up In Illinois - UFO UpDates - Toronto [76]
   Re: Submission Of Additional Ad For Review - Pope - Nick Pope [36]
   What Secrets Lie In Museum Vaults? - Greg Boone [19]
   Research Co-ordination On Jennings' UFO Doc - Larry W. Bryant [34]
   How Is UK Ufology Faring? - Roy Hale [31]
   Numerous Objects Over Houston British Columbia - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO
   Research [200]
   HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 11-27-04 - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO
   Research [342]
   Re: Submission Of Additional Ad For Review - - Alfred Lehmberg [15]
   Re: What Secrets Lie In Museum Vaults? - Rogerson - Peter Rogerson [5]

  Nov 29:

   Re: Alien Abductions & Coffee Enemas - Rogerson - Peter Rogerson [27]
   Re: All Things Pelican - King - Kyle King [3]
   Re: All Things Pelican - Connors - Wendy Connors [44]
   Re: What Secrets Lie In Museum Vaults? - Boone - Greg Boone [30]
   The Titan Bunny - Colin Stevenson [16]
   Ufology As A Science - Wendy Connors [76]
   Does Anyone Remember Billy Goodman? - Michael Christol [5]
   Paranormal Phenomena Assessment Study - Terry W. Colvin [17]
   John Ford's Southaven Footage? - Scott Carr [23]
   Re: How Is UK Ufology Faring? - Gevaerd - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO
   [11]
   First Quasi-Satellite Of Venus Discovered - Nick Balaskas [52]
   The Encyclopedic Sourcebook Of UFO Religions - Terry W. Colvin [92]
   Re: All Things Pelican - Weber - Bill Weber [17]
   Firestorm - A Review - Alfred Lehmberg [239]
   Re: First Quasi-Satellite Of Venus Discovered - - Don Ledger [6]
   Mexican UFO Video Article In Skeptic Magazine - James Smith [7]
   UFO Cult Names Eminem 'Honorary Priest' - Terry Groff [34]
   Re: First Quasi-Satellite Of Venus Discovered - - Alfred Lehmberg [44]

  Nov 30:

   Re: Alien Abductions & Coffee Enemas - White - Eleanor White [8]
   Re: Mexican UFO Video Article In Skeptic Magazine - John Rimmer [13]
   Re: What Secrets Lie In Museum Vaults? - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [3]
   Request Help - Bruce Maccabee [9]
   Re: How Is UK Ufology Faring? - Rimmer - John Rimmer [39]
   Re: Ufology As A Science - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [9]
   Re: Mexican UFO Video Article In Skeptic Magazine - Joe McGonagle [22]
   Secrecy News -- 11/29/04 - Steven Aftergood [104]
   Re: UFO Cult Names Eminem 'Honorary Priest' - Kyle King [16]
   The E.T. Equation Recalculated - UFO UpDates - Toronto [65]
   Aykroyd Expounds On His Belief In UFOs - UFO UpDates - Toronto [33]
   UK National Archives On UFOs - UFO UpDates - Toronto [565]
   How Britain And The US Keep Watch - UFO UpDates - Toronto [96]
   Re: First Quasi-Satellite Of Venus Discovered - - Kyle King [42]
   A New Lie Detection Technology? - Greg Boone [60]





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Nov > Nov 1

                     Re: Shielding & Harassment - Smith

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 11:31:58 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 07:19:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Shielding & Harassment - Smith


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 18:23:49 -0400
>Subject: Shielding & Harassment [was: Call To Action...]

>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:53:22 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>>Subject: Re: Call To Action - Canadian UFO Information Project

>>Seems like demonic forces.

>It's similar, but locked into the other half - the harassment
>by people - it's not that simple. More than that, our members
>have tried moving many times, all over the globe, with no
>cessation in either human or electronic harassment.

It is distressing that you are going through such harassment and
I, for one, do not discount your personal experiences but I
still have trouble with the source/motivation. I cannot see why
humans would devote such time and effort to queltshing YOU.
Humans seem motivated by money and power, but driving you into
the ground does not seem a very efficient expenditure of funds.
Blasting OBL or Kim Il Jun would seem better spent funds. Also,
how do you know that it is humans doing these bizarre control at
a distance activities? Did they send you a memo? I imagine they
are sending voices because that is relatively easy to do with
RF,let alone fancy tech we're talking about here. What do they
say? Is it abusive language? Or do they identify themselves? It
just seems like you are guessing that humans are involved.

I do not know ALL abductee stories, but have you
read any doing what you have experienced? It seems
like they are more into medical examines and less
"puppetry".

On the other hand, demonic/ghost/possession/poltergiest like
phenomena seem to correspond well with your "control"
experiences. Moving will not fix it because I have read that
these forces can move too. If I were you I would check out some
psychic and see if there is some curse or something. Maybe get
the home "blessed" or burn some incense!

>>You have ruled out subsonic acoustic effects which can be tuned
>>to particular organs?

>The 4-layer shield around my bed had a great deal of damping -
> being 4 layers, and the inner layer was conductive foam, which
>made the unit almost like an anechoic chamber. That, plus the 8-
>inch concrete walls, floors and ceiling, and fully enclosed
>balcony which meant two fully weatherproofed sets of windows
>sound from the outside would have had to pass through. The
>mattress and bedding also added to the sound deadening
>qualities.

It looks like you have got it covered! Inside the shield, do you
get any readings from a Trifield meter? Any elestrostatics?

>One trick they like to demonstrate (rarely) is while you are lying
>down, take one foot, and bend each toe slowly back as far as
>they can without breaking it. That is not an infrasound thing.

Okay.

>Neither is picking up objects in the enclosure, and repeatedly
>whacking you in the face with them.

>And the faked sounds - fake phone ringing, fake pager going off,
>fake alarm clock going off - continued unabated too.

If you had another person with you, does the phenomena stop?

This really sounds like a paranormal presence and not like a
tech device!

>>Do you have videos of these events with mutiple video camera
>>viewing the levitation?

>Not even a single video camera. That also points to this being
>deliberate. With a video camera running, one of two things
>happens:

>- the perps stop doing their thing until the tape runs out
>- the perps stop the camera

>Similarly, when I try sleeping with an audible/meter output EEG
>connected to my head, with a tape recording recording the
>audible indication, the perps will blast it with heavy static.
>At no other time does the EEG unit have a static problem. (By
>the way, that would be a nifty experiment for an abductee to
>do.)

>They occasionally yank my legs forward, landing me on the
>ground, as I am walking outside too. No chance of catching that
>with a camcorder. The ability to do that is described in Tim
>Rifat's book "Remote Viewing", as being a Russian psychic
>specialty.

Bizarre. I could only hope you can get someone to record you all
the time to hope to quell the phenomena.

>As far as being "propaganda", I know there is always lots of
>that floating around, but at the same time, I don't regard every
>Russian as a liar because they lived/live under a crooked
>government.

Right. But one must judge what is true and what is made up in
the cold war years.

>** You know what would be great - if CUFOS would lend a local
>paranormal investigation group one of their UFO abductee
>environmental monitor clusters - since they told me they have
>finished - and let the group analyze recorded data from such an
>instrument during periods of intense effects at my apartment, or
>of another target. There might be some important clues available
>there.

>Even if the perps shut down or made erratic such instrumentation
>- that itself would be an important clue.

>None of us can afford such a setup - every one of us gets it
>both barrels (electronic and conventional harassment) on the
>job, to drive us into poverty.

The other approach would be to solicit one of the new cable
shows which want to verify spooky phenomena. Maybe this will
increase public awareness, although you run some risk in being
on TV, it really seems you have little to lose at this stage.

>>Sorry, I cannot see how you can
>>say the tech exists. Maybe it does somewhere in the Universe,
>>but whether it does here and is used by the government is not
>>obvious to me. If this tech existed anywhere in the Universe,
>>then, since range seems unlimited, we would all be harassed by
>>these beings bent on cheap thrills or whatever.

>Well, the tech does exist and only certain people are being
>harassed. I can't explain that. I can't help hoping that more
>people will be targetted, not that I want anyone to go through
>this, but that is probably the only way this will ever come out
>into the open.

I can't see how it can be tech, but paranormal... yes. You don't
need to have everyone being harassed to get attention. There was
a movie I forget the name where some lady was harassed (raped)
by some invisible entity. They made that into a movie. I don't
see where the world was made a better place by the movie but at
least it increased public awareness.

>From an April 2002 on line survey, if the visitors were anything
>like typical, as many as one person in a hundred may be going
>through this right now. (1% said they had many of the symptoms.)

Holey cow!

>It may be that a _very_ large number of people are actually
>being harassed but are as yet unaware, thinking it's just
>incredibly bad luck. I can say that perhaps one in a hundred who
>pass by my picket sign do look at it very seriously, taking
>their time, but don't stop and talk. I think they are afraid of
>being seen as a 'wacko'. At this point, I can't know exactly
>what they are thinking about.

The problem is how to differentiate bad luck from demons/ New
World Order techies/ghosts/aliens/etc.

>The levitation and remote manipulation for most targets is not as
>exaggerated as has happened to me. Most common is having your
>arm or hand nudged while you are trying to do delicate or messy
>work. These nudges, if witnessed, would be seen as ordinary
>clumsiness, but "from the inside" it is unmistakeably a nudge.

But how do you know the nudge isn't just a random firing of your
own nervous system. I feel a random twinge sometimes and I have
though maybe it is a ghost or something, but if my eye twinges
successively, then I am sure its just my overworked eyes and not
a ghost or something. It is very hard to prove such twinges are
not generated by yourself.

>That's the "game" they play. They want to be _sure_ the target
>knows he/she is being targetted, but totally unable to prove it
>to anyone else.

Well, they seem to be effective.

>I think the government, or more properly, the New World Order,
>may well have developed it from the many ancient documents which
>are not widely read. I doubt that any of this advanced stuff is
>new at all. A hint of that is all the secrecy surrounding the
>Dead Sea scrolls. And who knows what's in the Vatican's
>basement?

Somehow, I think this unlikely. I prefer to think ghosts or
demons are doing it than that we consulted ancient texts to
build such devices.

>But I'm no scholar - just someone who wants to be left alone to
>go hang out in peace with squirrels in the park. (Where people
>walk up and let their dogs off a leash to scare them away, then
>calmly put the dog back on the leash and leave - sometimes two
>or three times in a single visit. Totally deniable as
>harassment. Get the picture?)

This is something else. This is not tech. Can you film these
people without them freaking out or camcorder breaking? Such
people HATE to be filmed. But if they are simply regular people
who have been guided by demons/ghosts/strange probabilty fields,
then they may be no different than you or me, but really be
pawns. But to what avail?? Demons clearly need no excuse except
to cause great pain and drive people to Hell. They also seem to
have infinite resources. Ghosts are similar except that they may
be bound to this plain out of shear spite and wish to do harm to
people or a particular person for some reason (they looked like
someone who harmed them,etc). The tech part can be probability
field related, but the motivation is totally obscure when this
could be used to gather immense wealth, they waste the efforts
on people with no wealth and power. Seems daft!

Good luck and keep up the fight!







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Nov > Nov 1

                        Re: Orb Study Site - LeClair

From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 12:20:29 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 07:21:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Orb Study Site - LeClair


>From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 17:26:15 -0500
>Subject: Re: Orb Study Site

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 16:02:41 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Orb Study Site

<snip>

>Bruce:

>Being an optical physicist, can you offer an explanation as to
>why the "orb" flashes are only visible from the front but there
>are no reflections in the mirror and no shadows? (seriously)

>No reflections, no shadows ===>VAMPIRES!

>Mmwwaahaha, Happy Halloween!


I just got in on this discussion. Only skimmed the other e-mails
about orbs. I lost interest in orbs years ago. But, here I am
eating and figured I'd give it a go while I eat.

In cases where orbs are out of focus dust, don't expect to see
reflection or shadow.

If you are refering to a case where the person sees a orb with
the naked eye and then takes a photo, then that would be
different. Orbs generally aren't seen with the naked eye,
neither are their shadows, due to the size of dust, dirt etc.
that is, in-part, responsible for their appearance on film.
There actually is a shadow and reflection you just can't see it
with the naked eye. The mirror that is reflecting the dust
doesn't have to focus like a camera does, therefore no orb
appearance since it is reflecting an un-distorted image.

Also, the mirror is at a different distance relative to the
focal point. In short, what is captured on film, isn't what the
room "sees" if you will. Next time you look into the mirror, see
if you can see dust fly by. Hopefully you have a somewhat clean
bathroom, or else I will look like a bigger fool than I already
am.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Nov > Nov 1

                           Web-Links To Your Sites

From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 11:24:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 07:25:33 -0500
Subject: Web-Links To Your Sites


We've set up a page for UFO (and related) web-links for media
access:

http://www.ufolab.us

We'll be promoting this site from our national media sites,
hoping that reporters check the links for stories and
information.

Please check your site there to make sure we have it listed
correctly, and send us your web-site address if you would like
it linked also.


Rich Reynolds
Director
InterAmerica, Inc.
Fort Wayne MediaWatch








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Nov > Nov 1

                         Re: Gordon Cooper - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 13:24:22 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 07:28:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Sparks


>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 00:21:17 -0700
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 13:39:41 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 13:38:40 +0000
>>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>>>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 18:33:54 -0500
>>>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

<snip>

>>>>BTW: In his attack on Cooper's book, Oberg has distorted what
>>>>Cooper wrote about photographs showing car license plates that
>>>>he said he took from orbit. Cooper did _not_ say the plates were
>>>>"readable" as Oberg claims. What Cooper actually said was, and I
>>>>quote:

>>>>"I was shown a few pictures - including some unbelievable
>>>>closeups of car license plates ..."

>>>>Cooper _never_ said the license plates were readable. Did Cooper
>>>>misremember some events? Perhaps. Everyone does. Including
>>>>Oberg.

<snip>

>>This is really desperate grasping at straws. Cooper clearly
>>implies that he could read the car license plates, otherwise why
>>say the purported space photos of the license plates at Area 51
>>were "unbelieveable closeups"?

>>In any case it is utterly ridiculous that Cooper could take
>>ultra-high resolution photos showing the rectangular shape of
>>car license plates from three hundred miles away through the
>>dirty distorted Gemini windows using only a shaky human
>>_hand- held_ camera and somehow avoid motion blurring the tiny
>>details, and at a grazing slant angle through three hundred plus
>>miles of murky atmosphere instead of looking straight down (when
>>atmospheric distortion is at a minimum). Simple calculation
>>shows that just to see the "squareness" of a car license plate,
>>a minimum of 4 x 2 pixels in resolution, without even being able
>>to read the letters, using the 1250 mm focal length I think I
>>read posted here, would be about 30 x 15 feet minimum
>>resolution, for fine five-micron film grain. This would make it
>>virtually impossible even to see an entire car, let alone
>>"unbelievable closeups of car license plates."

>The Questar telescope used as the telephoto had a 3.5 inch or 89
>mm aperature and a resolution of about 1 arc second. If photos
>were taken at Gemini 5 perigee (closest approach) of about 101
>miles, resolution in feet would be about 2.6 feet. That would be
>just about enough to resolve the presence of a car, but nowhere
>close to seeing a license plate.

>(To resolve the presence of a license plate would take a
>telescope aperature 15-20 times greater than the Questar scope.
>That's about Hubble size.)

>That 2.6 foot resolution would be perpendicular to the direction
>of travel, whose resolution would be limited by motion smear,
>about 25 feet for a 1/1000th second shutter speed.

We're in basic agreement but you are missing a critical piece of
data - the Gemini 5's orbital inclination of 32.61 degrees which
means the farthest north it could go was 32.61 degs north
latitude. But Area 51 Groom Lake is at 37.2 degs latitude.
That's about 4.6 degrees of latitude or about 320 miles away!
The alleged photo of Area 51 could not possibly have been taken
looking straight down so a perigee distance of only 101 miles
was not possible. A distance of 320 miles is a lot more
turbulent atmosphere to have to see through than looking
straight down.

And that is still assuming the alleged photo of Area 51 was
actually taken at the Gemini's closest approach at its most
northerly point. We don't have a date and time to check that. It
might have been at an even greater distance. We also don't know
that a good photo could have been taken with such a short
1/1,000 sec exposure that you assumed for illustrating the
point. It might have only been say 1/10 or 1/100 sec. Faster
film allowing for shorter exposures also tends to be coarser
grained and lower resolution that way.








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                 Re: The Official Report Black Hole - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 13:54:10 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 07:29:56 -0500
Subject: Re: The Official Report Black Hole - Sparks


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 21:30:19 -0300
>Subject: Re: The Official Report Black Hole

>>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 20:13:35 +0100
>>Subject: Re: The Official Report Black Hole

>>>From: Simon Hicks <slh.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:09:30 +0800
>>>Subject: The Official Report Black Hole

<snip>

>In the United States there was the October 20, 1969, memo from
>USAF General Carroll Bolender who had been very much involved in
>the development of the Lunar Excursion Module which worked
>successfully in July, 1969. He was asked to review Project Blue
>Book. He stated "Moreover, reports of unidentified flying
>objects which could affect national security are made in
>accordance with JANAP (Joint Army Navy Air Force Publication)146
>or Air Force Manual 55-11,and are not part of the Blue Book
>system".In discussing the fact that if BB was closed the public
>wouldn't have a place to report sightings......

>"However, as already stated, reports of UFOs which could affect
>national security would continue to be handled through the
>standard Air Force Procedures designed for this purpose". BB was
>not on the distribution list for either regulation. I spoke with
>Bolender who confirmed that there was a separate system which
>was concerned about national security situations such as a UFO
>flying down the runway at a SAC base where nuclear weapons were
>stationed.

>Dr. Hynek was very anxious to get a copy of the Bolender memo
>when I told him about it at a MUFON Conference in San Francisco
>about 1979. It apparently was a great surprise to him and
>indicated he had been left out of the system.


Long before Bolender in 1969 there were memos in the Blue Book
files from 1958-9 saying basically the same thing. These have
been available since the BB files went public in 1976 yet have
been ignored by historians such as Jacobs and ignored by Hynek
despite he and his staff go through all the BB files at CUFOS.
However Hynek was having regular monthly meetings with Major
(later Col.) Friend and his BB staff in 1959 and should have
known this (I think it may even be mentioned in one of the
meeting minutes but I would have to check to be sure and I have
no time to do that). Friend confirmed this off-tape when Tom
Tulien and I video interviewed him back in 2001. He said there
were UFO detections on classified sensor systems that were not
routed to BB and this was not just assumption based on his
knowledge of reporting procedures but that he knew there were
actual UFO cases like that.

The current successor AF reporting regulation is AF Instruction
10-206 of May 30, 2003, AF Operational Reporting System
(AFOREPS). Even though JANAP-146(E) was cancelled on May 11,
1996, JANAP-146 still survives on in other regulations that act
like it has never been cancelled. However anyone on the inside
would know these regs are not very important anyway, and know
that classified sensor systems have their own highly classified
compartmented reporting channels that supersede very general
reporting instructions. Most in fact are automatic systems that
feed classified data streams to predetermined recipients who can
do what they like with the data, so there is no "report" to
make, there are only analysts studying data. The JANAP-146-type
regs are really catch-all last-resort type regs for those who
are clueless and have no idea where to report things - most
would know exactly where to report within classified channels
and don't need JANAP- 146 to "help" them.








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                 Re: The Official Report Black Hole - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 14:08:44 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 07:30:54 -0500
Subject: Re: The Official Report Black Hole - Sparks


Correction:  The Friend interview was 2000 not 2001,
specifically March 18, 2000.








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                 India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online

From: Daniel Guenther <daniel_g.nul-online.de>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 21:13:42 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 07:34:29 -0500
Subject: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online


As reported at:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/oct/m03-002.shtml

a strange observation was made by Iindian scientists on a
research trip.

I found a photograph of the object which was taken by the group
online:

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1041011/asp/knowhow/story_3833729.asp

Please note an interesting link about Himachal Pradesh, India,
where the incident took place.

http://www.ibiblio.org/himachal/geography.html


Daniel G.

--
JTC - UFO sightings database
http://www.ufodb.net








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              Re: Flying Blankets Threaten Satellites - Colvin

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 14:12:54 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 07:39:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Flying Blankets Threaten Satellites - Colvin


Forwarding permission was given by William R. Corliss.

Science Frontiers, No. 156, Nov-Dec, 2004, p. 1

http://www.science-frontiers.com


ASTRONOMY

Flying blankets threaten satellites

A 1-meter telescope manned by astronomers on the Canary Islands
has discerned about 55 faint objects orbiting the earth.
Curiously, they appear rather punctually every 24 hours. These
objects are about 30 centimeters (1 foot) across and swing
around the earth in highly eccentric orbits.

Their unusual orbits could be explained if the objects were
film-like and extremely light-weight, with mass densities of
only about 50 grams/meter. By comparison, sheets of paper would
be far denser. According to space engineers, the most likely
earth-launched material with these characteristics is aluminized
Mylar sheeting. Such sheeting is added to satellites to protect
them from solar heat. Some of these sheets may have peeled off
the hundreds of weather, communication, and surveillance
satellites launched over the last half century.

However, there is no universal agreement as to the true nature
of these 'flying blankets'.

(McKee, Maggie; Flying Blankets Threaten Satellites - The New
Scientist, p. 14, August 14, 2004)

Comments. Wouldn't it be amusing if these orbiting "blankets"
actually represent an extraterrestrial mail drop? The SETI
program has been notably unsuccessful in picking up
intelligence-containing radio signals from outer space. So
unsuccessful in fact that some searchers for extraterrestrial
intelligence now favor sending hard-copy out into space; that
is, artifacts containing inscribed messages that would have
meaning to most intelligent entities that happened upon them.

(Rose, Christopher, and Wright, Gregory; Inscribed Matter As An
Energy-Efficient Means Of Communication With An Extraterrestrial
Civilization - Nature, 431:47, 2004)

Still other speculators venture that messages on "inscribed
matter" arrived on earth billions of years ago. These
extraterrestrial messages are encoded in DNA. A good place to
look for these messages, they say, is in the long stretches of
nonsense or "junk" DNA present in most genomes in huge
quantities. We haven't seriously looked at DNA with
extraterrestrial messages in mind. It may contain more than
blueprints for life forms! [Or life forms themselves could be
messages!]

(Davies, Paul; Do We Have To Spell It Out?  - The New Scientist,
p. 30, August 7, 2004)


[Science Frontiers is a bimonthly collection of digests of
scientific anomalies in the current literature. Published by the
Sourcebook Project, P.O. Box 107, Glen Arm, MD 21057. Annual
subscription: $8.00.]







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                        Re: Orb Study Site - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 16:15:41 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 07:41:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Orb Study Site - Maccabee


>From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 17:26:15 -0500
>Subject: Re: Orb Study Site

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 16:02:41 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Orb Study Site


>>>So if orbs are real 3D objects, they are only visible from the
>>>"front", and they don't reflect in a mirror. Nor do they cast
>>>shadows.

>Bruce:

>Being an optical physicist, can you offer an explanation as to
>why the "orb" flashes are only visible from the front but there
>are no reflections in the mirror and no shadows? (seriously)>

>No reflections, no shadows ===>VAMPIRES!

>Mmwwaahaha, Happy Halloween!

Rule of thumb (bloody thumb): vampire orbs have no shadows

But, serially.....

The dust particle which makes an orb image would probably be
less than 10 inches, maybe less than 5 inches from the lens and
much less than a millimeter in size. How far away is the mirror?
Many feet? The size of the flash bulb is much larger than the
size of the dust particle. Assume, for simplicity, that the dust
particle is a sphere. This is comparable to the sun and planets!
Since the sun is so much larger each planet has an umbra (where
no light shines) and a penumbra (which has some light).  The
umbra is shaped like a cone, with the base of the cone at the
planet and the apex being a distance from the planet , away from
the sun, where the umbra ends, after which there is only a
penumbra, which is missing only slightly dimmer than the
unblocked light of the sun.  Suppose that in the orb situation
the size of a flash bulb or flash tube is 10 mm (effective size)
and the dust particle is 0.1 mm (100 micron).  Suppose that the
dust particle is 100 mm (about 4 inches) from the flash.

The cone angle made by using 10 mm diameter as the base and
0.1mm as the diameter at 100 mm from the base is [(10 - 0.1)
mm]/100 mm = 9.9/100 =0.099 radians.

Projecting this cone beyond the position of the dust particle we
can find the point of the cone is at the distance which gives
the same angle when compared to the base, i.e. (10 mm)/(distance
to point) = 0.099. Hence the distance to the apex of the conical
shadow (umbra) is 10/.099 = 101.01 mm, that is, the shadow ends
only 1.01 mm beyond the dust particle.

But, you say, the presence of the dust particle blocks some
light from hitting the mirror.  Yes, but the amount is something
like the ratio of the area of the dust particle divided by the
area of the flash, in this case the ratio of the squares of the
diameter, (0.1)^2/10^2 = 1/10000.

This is such a small loss in total light as to be undetectable
in a photo of a flash orb as reflected in a mirror.

One _might_ see a flash orb effect in a mirror if the mirror
were within inches of a lens (and a dust particle between), but
then the flash itself would probably wipe out the picture,.

Now to get ready for... Halloween.....








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                         Re: Igor Returns - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 16:50:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 07:43:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Igor Returns - Maccabee


>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 23:08:22 +0100
>Subject: Re: Igor Returns

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 12:44:36 -0400
>>Subject: Igor Returns

>>Russian retired Air Force 'UFO' General returns to the news.

>Col. Gen. Igor Maltsev is in the news now as a result of
>>receiving an award from Saddam's government during March, 2003.

<snip>

>>So what, asks the puzzled reader, does this have to do with
>>UFOs?

>>Some may recall way back in 1990, during the time of the Belgian
>>UFO flap (e.g.,Nov. 89 - May 90) that there were also many
>>sightings reported in the former Soviet Union, (summer 1989,
>>including Voronezh in Sept., through spring '90).

>>The particular sightings of interest here occurred along the
>>area of the Pereslavl - Yuroslavl highway northeast (?) of
>>Moscow on March 21, 1990.>

<snip>

>>Recall that the person who reported the sighting to the press
>>was a man of considerable authority, then General in charge of
>>the Air Defense of Moscow... Col. General Igor Maltsev.

>I've not really looked into the UFO situation in the former
>Soviet Union, but there's some interesting information about
>this in some of the UK Ministry of Defence's UFO files.

>In 1967 several newspapers reported the fact that a Soviet Air
>Force Commission had been established to investigate UFOs. Our
>Scientific Attach=E9 in Moscow made discreet enquiries and the
>Pentagon asked if the UK had any information on this.

>A Reuters report stated that the Soviet Commission would be
>chaired by Major General A. P. Strolyarov, Soviet Air Force
>Technical Services (Retired). I can't recall what happened after
>this and don't think Strolyarov's involvement has been picked up
>on widely by ufologists. There's a brief reference in Paul
>Stonehill's book, The Soviet UFO Files, and some online
>references. The situation isn't helped by some confusion as to
>the correct spelling of his name: Strolyarov or Stolyarov. Try
>both on Google for more information.

This was at the time of the Condon/University of Colorado study
when, for a short time, you could talk openly about UFOs without
having a bag over your head.

We in the West learned that the Soviets, too, had a UFO study.
Dr. Felix Zigel and others were active in collecting early
Russian./Soviet UFO reports. There was a story in Soviet Life
magazine (in English). Looked like a "big thing."

Then in '69 the Condon study closed, Condon said it was all a
crock and UFOs and Project Blue Book went away. Surprising
coincidence: the newspaper stories from the FSU (Former Soviet
Union) panned UFO studies and researchers went underground, only
to emerge publicly nearly 10 years later. (Vladimir Azhazha was
cited as giving a UFO lecture in the FSU in 1976, I think.) Not
until the early 1980's was is legitimate to discuss the subject
again.








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                    Mystery 'Big Bird' Legend In The News

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 17:14:37 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 07:48:24 -0500
Subject: Mystery 'Big Bird' Legend In The News


Source: The Monitor - McAllen Texas

http://www.themonitor.com/SiteProcessor.cfm?Template=/GlobalTemplates/Details.cf
m&StoryID=4127&Section=Local

10-31-04

Feathered Friend? For Some, Legend Of Big Bird Remains A Mystery

Alma Walzer
The Monitor

McALLEN -- For decades, bird lovers have flocked to the Rio
Grande Valley to see a large variety of their feathered friends.
But in 1976, hunters scoured the area trying to win a reward for
the capture of a creature which became known to residents here
as Big Bird. For about two months in the mid-1970s, Big Bird --
 not the friendly tall, yellow bird that loves children on
Sesame Street -- terrorized Valley residents.

The 5-foot-tall bird was described as "horrible-looking,"
according to The Monitor's archives. Its wings were large
enough to be folded over its body and it had large, dark red
eyes attached to a gray, gorilla-like face. Its head was bald
and it made a loud, shrill sound through its 6-inch-long beak.

Tom Waldon claimed to have found its tracks on Jan. 2, 1976,
near his home in Harlingen. The three-toed tracks measured 8
inches across and pressed an inch and a half into the ground.

Three teachers from San Antonio claimed to have seen Big Bird in
that city as well, on Feb. 24, 1976. The trio later pointed to a
picture in a book of a pteranodon, an extinct giant flying
reptile, as being most like what they had seen. Some bird
experts told area residents that the bird was a lost condor or a
jabiru, a large Central American stork which can boast a 10-foot
wing span, big tracks and a featherless head. The jabiru has a
breeding ground about 250 miles south of McAllen, near Tampico,
Mexico, experts pointed out. But just as mysteriously as it
arrived, Big Bird seemed to disappear overnight. But for some
Valley residents, what exactly the Big Bird was is still a
mystery.

THE FIRST SIGHTINGS

The Big Bird sighting thought to be the first was Jan 1, 1976,
when Tracey Lawson, then age 11, and her cousin Jackie Davies,
then 14, were playing in Lawson's back yard near Harlingen.

The two girls say they saw the bird standing about 100 yards
away on an irrigation canal, according to the Atlas of the
Mysterious in North America.

Lawson went inside to get her binoculars, and when she returned,
she saw the bird staring back at her.

Big Bird was more than 5 feet tall, she said, and when she and
Davies ran inside to tell her parents, the adults did not
believe them.

On Jan. 8, 1976, The Brownsville Herald and the Valley Morning
Star ran a piece that told the story of Alverico Guajardo and a
strange "birdlike" creature which he claimed to have seen
outside his home one day earlier.

"I was scared," Guajardo said at the time. "It's got wings like
a bird, but it's not a bird. That animal is not of this world."

Guajardo said Big Bird had large wings but it never flew while
in his presence. Its eyes were as big as silver dollars and its
long, skinny beak was three or four feet long, he said.

It made a terrible noise, and although the sounds seemed to come
from the creature's throat, which pulsated as it made the noise
and its beak never moved, Guajardo said.

The Brownsville Herald

article indicated that reports of the large bird began shortly
after a number of cattle mutilations made the news in Cameron
County, but there was no proof that the bird had caused the
strange mutilations.

GROWING LEGEND,

GROWING FEAR

As more sightings of Big Bird were reported, its legend grew.
One Valley radio station offered a reward of $1,000 for the
capture of the bird, archives show.

Johnny Carson even joked about Big Bird on The Tonight Show. The
West German newspaper, Die Bild Zeitung, ran a story about the
bird on its front page on Jan. 15, 1976.

Tejano artists Raul Ruiz and Wally "The Taco Kid " Gonzalez
recorded songs about Big Bird.

It was official: Trying to spot Big Bird became more popular
here than searching for UFOs.

The almost daily reports of Big Bird sightings and the frenzy of
Valley hunters to trap the bird in an effort to claim the cash
prize prompted the Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission to issue
a warning.

"We have a number of species of birds that do exist in South
Texas in the Valley area," said commission officer Ed Dutch at
the time. "Many of them have wingspans up to perhaps 10 feet or
in excess of 10 feet, and some of them are on the rare
endangered species list."

The punishment for catching a protected bird could cost a hunter
$5,000, Dutch said.

The sightings of Big Bird were reported from every type of
person, including two San Benito police officers.

Patrolmen Arturo Padilla and Homero Galvan, traveling in
separate police cars, reported seeing a huge bird with a 15-foot
wing span gliding through the air.

"It's more or less like a stork or pelican-type of bird,"
Padilla said. "I've done a lot of hunting, but I've never seen
anything like it."

Padilla said the bird had a wingspan of about 15 feet. He said
he was willing to shoot it if

"It's a true story that happened in Starr County in the early
1980s ... There were reports of the bird killing cattle because
the ranchers were finding cattle mutilated and drained of their
blood." -- Javier, 27 eyewitness

he saw it again.

Big Bird was sighted along the river near Laredo as well, by
Arturo Rodriguez and his nephew Ricardo, as they were fishing on
the banks of the Rio Grande, newspaper archives show.

Television footage showing three-toed footprints, measuring 9
inches by 12 inches, and believed to have been left by Big Bird,
fed the fear felt by area residents.

When one eyewitness said he believed the bird was large enough
to easily scoop up a small child off the ground, parents began
to keep their children indoors, instead of allowing them to
venture outside to play.

Fear took a tighter grip on the Valley after Jan. 15, 1976, when
a Raymondville man told police officers he was attacked by the
bird.

"I felt some wind and looked up and this big bird attacked me,"
said Raymondville resident Armando Grimaldo, who was 26 years
old at the time.

Grimaldo's neighbors found him in his back yard shaking and
screaming, and reported that his shirt and jacket were torn.

A man from Eagle Pass said he was attacked as well, archives
show.

Francisco Magallanez's claim that he was attacked was given
some credibility by law enforcement officials, who said
Magallanez had marks on his shoulders. His physician, Dr. Arturo
Bates, told police the marks were made by some type of animal or
bird.

The Monitor reported that Magallanez, who was 21 years old at
the time, admitted he was drinking at the time of the attack.

EXPERT'S EXPLANATION

On Feb. 1, 1976, Texas A &M ornithologist Keith Arnold said he
believed Big Bird was a large Central American stork, which at
times has been observed as far north as Oklahoma, according to
The Monitor's archives.

The stork, also known as a jabiru, had a 10-foot wing span,
leaves large tracks and has a featherless head, Arnold said.

Arnold said he had examined a jabiru in 1973 when it was found
in a weakened state near Houston.

URBAN LEGEND

Big Bird became larger than life when the tales about it were
told over and over.

Some of the stories can be found in the Special Collections
Department in the library of the University of Texas-Pan
American.

For years, UTPA students have been asked to write down what they
know about local legends, and Big Bird has always been a
favorite. Because the students never intended for their stories
to be published, The Monitor will not print their full names.

Javier, 27, of Rio Grande City recalled the story which
connected Big Bird to the mysterious cattle mutilations.

"It's a true story that happened in Starr County in the early
1980s," Javier wrote. "There were reports of the bird killing
cattle because the ranchers were finding cattle mutilated and
drained of their blood.

"There was no explanation and people were shocked because the
cattle were supposedly mutilated using surgical instruments and
there were no tire tracks or foot prints near the dead cattle,"
Javier wrote. "After the bird disappeared, there were no more
reports of mutilated cattle."

A 49-year-old man from Olmito, who withheld his name from the
report given to a UTPA student named Yadira, said he had proof
the bird attacked him.

"He left a bar a little late and was about to get in his car
when he was attacked by a giant bird," Yadira wrote. "It cut him
up, so when he got home his wife bandaged him up."

"He told her the story but she didn't believe him," Yadira
wrote. "The next day the wife used his car and found bird
feathers on the seat and the floorboard."

Another UTPA student, Esequiel, said he was in sixth grade at a
Pharr elementary when he saw the bird for himself. His story is
also in the library collection.

"We were at recess and saw a huge bird-like object in the sky,"
Esequiel wrote. "My friend and I were the only ones who saw it,
even though there were a lot of students playing outside. "We
told a teacher about it and she said it was probably an
unexplained event like a UFO or something," Esequiel wrote.

LEGEND DIES

On Feb. 11, 1976, the legend of the magnificent winged bird
died. Some farm workers saw Big Bird in a fruit orchard about
two miles south of Alamo, and within an hour, about 50 people
had gathered to see the bird for themselves.

The bird stood quietly and watched the group of people walk
around, including a television reporter who filmed the bird.

The film showing a 4-foot tall silvery-blue bird was broadcast
around the state on Feb. 12 and Feb. 13, 1976, and the bird was
identified as a great blue heron by Don Farst, a curator at the
Gladys Porter Zoo in Brownsville.

Farst said the great blue heron was not uncommon in the Valley.

"They usually stay near the bay or in arroyos, feeding on small
snakes and lizards," Farst said at the time.

COINCIDENCE?

Just when we thought it was safe to go back outside, another big
bird made headlines.

On Feb. 17, 1976, The Brownsville Herald ran a story about a big
bird that died after it became entangled in a barbed wire fence
in Logan, Ind.

The bird, named Boomer by his owner William Brasier, had been
lost for four days before it was found dead in the fence line.

The 6-foot, 2-inch tall ostrich-like creature was a South
American bird that can run up to 40 miles an hour, but cannot
fly, Brasier said at the time.

Brasier believed Boomer got caught in the barbed wire while
trying to jump the four-foot fence to freedom.

---

Alma Walzer handles special assignments, investigative reporting
and politics for The Monitor. You can reach her at:
956-683-4422.









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                     Gordon Cooper & The 'Space Aliens'

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 18:25:06 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 08:16:38 -0500
Subject: Gordon Cooper & The 'Space Aliens'


One seriously misleading characterization of Gordon Cooper that
Oberg has repeatedly made is that Cooper relayed telepathic
messages from "space aliens" to NASA. Cooper never used the term
"space aliens", which is simply the tabloid terminology Oberg
uses to demean Cooper. It might also be construed from Oberg's
description that Cooper was personally channeling "space aliens"
and reporting what they told him to NASA. That is not the case.

What Cooper actually writes is that he became acquainted with a
woman named Valerie Ransone in 1978. She claimed to be in
telepathic contact with an extraterrestrial intelligence. He
became interested in a diagram she had drawn illustrating a flaw
in the space shuttle thermal system that her "contacts"
described to her. Cooper writes that he flew to Houston to tell
a NASA supervisor of Flight Operations about it. Cooper said the
supervisor, named Bennett James, discussed the matter with NASA
engineers who identified a real problem with the cooling
system's design. Maybe the NASA engineers were just humoring a
famous astronaut, but that would have no bearing on Cooper's
truthfulness.

Cooper spends two chapters discussing his relationship with
Ransone and a business venture that evolved from it aimed at the
development of unconventional technologies.

Whether or not Ransone was actually in contact with ETs is
irrelevant to whether Cooper was being essentially truthful. I
see no reason to believe he was not. He mentions the failure of
this new technology venture and various other weird stuff, like
the failed attempt to get a ride on a ET ship that Ransone's
"contacts" had offered to Cooper before (allegedly) changing
their minds. I suppose that if this incident can't be used to
prove that Cooper was insane or a liar, it might be used to
insinuate that he was extremely gullible. Maybe he was taken in
by Ransone to some extent, but Cooper gives no indication that
there was any money scam involved. My impression is that Cooper
was simply interested in exploring subjects like ESP, heedless
of the fatwahs Oberg's CSICOP colleagues have declared against
them. Cooper's closing remarks on this part of his life are:

"Today, I am unwilling to bet my life that the source of the
astute technological assistance and advice Valerie Ransone
provided from time to time originated from an extraterrestrial
source. The test pilot skeptic in me could never be 100 percent
convinced about her astral connections until I saw her climb
aboard an alien sacuer and take off. But until that happens, and
based on what I saw with my own eyes and was able to check out,
I am at least 80 percent certain that she is, as she claims,
able to tap into a source of higher intellligence not of this
planet."

Obivously, this is far from the 100% disbelief that would have
been necessary for Cooper to be awarded an honorary fellowship
from CSICOP, but in my opinion it's far from the gullible
crackpottery that Oberg apparently wants to tar him with.








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                                  Limboids

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 17:56:22 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 10:14:19 -0500
Subject: Limboids


Forwarding permission was given by William R. Corliss.

Science Frontiers, No. 156, Nov-Dec, 2004, p. 2

http://www.science-frontiers.com


Biology

Limboids

What, if anything, separates life from non-life? To be alive, it
is widely promulgated that such entities must metabolize,
reproduce, and evolve in the Darwinian sense. It is also
popularly believed that living matter is intrinsically different
from nonliving matter, although one no longer speaks of "the
breath of life" or of an "elan vital". Even so, knowing all we
now know, there does still 'seem' to be a fundamental gap
between life and non-life. Is this gap illusory or perhaps
filled by entities of which we are not yet aware?

Generally speaking, there is no known profound difference
between physical and biological phenomena. In non-living
entities, such as inorganic crystals, the energy ground states
are deep. In living systems, entities such as proteins, are
characterized by several shallow energy states. Proteins, many
exist in several different conformational states with nearly the
same energy levels. Life, as we know it, therefore, involves
macromolecules that are more "pliable," more malleable by weak
forces, such as those that might be imposed by the environment.
Some proteins such as prions, may change their shapes
spontaneously.

Despite these possibilities of easy manipulation of
macromolecules by small forces and spontaneous shape-shifting,
many scientists - the reductionists - are confident that all of
biology is describable by the extant laws of physics and
chemistry.

So, the apparent gap we discern between living and nonliving
matters seems primarily a matter of energy-well depths. This
being so, the gap does 'seem' to be bridgeable by reductionist
science.

(Stec, Boguslaw; "Living and Nonliving Matter," 'Science',
305:41, 2004.)

Comments. But humans and their instruments do not observe
everything. There may be an unappreciated limbo separating life
from non-life. This limbo could be occupied by entities that
we'll call "limboids." Science may not yet recognize this
hypothesized realm of the natural world because:

(1) The limboids are too small - smaller than the controversial
nonolife and still inaccessible to today's science.

(2) The limboids are too large for us to grasp intellectually or
instrument-wise.

F. Hoyle's fictional "black cloud" would be an example.

(3) The metabolisms of limboids are too slow and their lifetimes
too long (millions of years) for us to discern them. In other
words, they 'seem' inanimate. (This potential attribute was
suggested by P. Gunkel.)

(4) The lifetimes of limboids may be too short for us to
register them.

(5) The limboids live outside the ranges of our eyes and
instruments.

(6) The limboids may incorporate considerable dark matter and be
hard to detect. Conceivably some manifestations of dark matter
could exist in recognized visible organisms and perform
organizing functions that "breathe life" into inanimate matter!

Scientists have not seriously looked for limboids, but they may
have caught fleeting glimpses of them, and "laid them back in
the closet," as Omar mused poetically.


[Science Frontiers is a bimonthly collection of digests of
scientific anomalies in the current literature. Published by
the Sourcebook Project, P.O. Box 107, Glen Arm, MD 21057. Annual
subscription: $8.00.]








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                           Infrared Foo Fighters?

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 20:51:08 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 10:17:29 -0500
Subject: Infrared Foo Fighters?


Forwarding permission was given by William R. Corliss.

Science Frontiers, No. 156, Nov-Dec, 2004, pp. 3 & 4

http://www.science-frontiers.com


GEOPHYSICS

Infrared foo fighters?

During World War II, aircraft of all combatants were
occasionally accompanied at night by unstructured lights dubbed
"foo fighters." (SF#83) A substantial literature exists on these
strange and yet-to-be-explained luminous phenomena. But nowhere,
as far as we know, are there records of infrared foo fighters.
This is hardly surprising because suitable infrared search
equipment was rare until recent times.

Today, infrared video cameras are not only available but
actively employed in searching for drug-running aircraft flying
at night without lights.

In May 2004, a Mexican military aircraft on a routine drug-
interdiction mission over Campeche was, according to its crew,
shadowed by UFOs invisible to the naked eye but which were
clearly seen by infrared equipment.

The plane initially encountered one or two UFOs that were
detected in the infrared and on radar. The sighting lasted about
30 minutes, and during this time, a diverse number of UFOs were
seen, in various direction around the plane. (Ref. 1)

The Mexican government released the details of the encounter
which received heavy press coverage.

UFO skeptics weighed in with many explanations. Among them:

* Ball lightning (but there were no storms in the area)

* Meteors or reentering space junk (but such debris would hardly
loiter around an aircraft)

* Weather balloons (but these would not keep pace with a plane
at 200 miles per hour)

* Stealth aircraft from the U.S.

* Equipment artifacts.

The last suggestion appeared in the Skeptical Inquirer (Ref. 2)
and is the most reasonable of the lot. However, the objects were
also seen on radar - a fact not mentioned in the Skeptical
Inquirer. The Skeptical Inquirer also maintained that the
infrared targets moved at constant velocities in straight lines
consistent with equipment artifacts). The account in Ref. 1,
however, asserts that the UFOs flew 'around' the aircraft. These
contradictions must be resolved before we can go further.

(Ref. 1. Rodeghier, Mark; "Skeptical Failures down Mexico Way,"
*International UFO Reporter*, 28:12, Winter 2003/2004. Ref. 2.
Christopher, Kevin; "Mexican Air Force UFOs Likely Equipment
Artifacts," *Skeptical Inquirer*, 28:9, July/August 2004)

Comments. Note that our two references come from opposite sides
of the UFO controversy. Why hasn't night-vision equipment been
employed at the sites where nocturnal lights are frequently
observed visually, such as Marfa, Texas; Brown Mountain, North
Carolina; and the Australian outback?


[Science Frontiers is a bimonthly collection of digests of
scientific anomalies in the current literature. Published by the
Sourcebook Project, P.O. Box 107, Glen Arm, MD 21057. Annual
subscription: $8.00.]







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             Re: Cops & Saucers: Law Enforcement & UFOs 1957 To

From: John Hayes <webmaster.nul>
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 07:30:05 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 10:19:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Cops & Saucers: Law Enforcement & UFOs 1957 To

>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates <UFOUpdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 23:17:58 -0600
>Subject: Cops & Saucers: Law Enforcement & UFOs 1957 To 1981


Hi Wendy,

Don't forget to send me the info for this release when you have
it ready.

I'll even say please :-)

John Hayes

webmaster.nul

UFOINFO:- http://www.ufoinfo.com

Official Archives for UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian
UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine
plus archives of Humanoid Sighting Reports (Albert
Rosales), Filer's Files, Oz Files, UFO News UK.








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                          Isaac Asimov's Super Quiz

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 08:46:03 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 10:24:32 -0500
Subject: Isaac Asimov's Super Quiz


Isaac Asimov's Super Quiz - What Do UFOs Have To Do With It?


http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/entertainment/9915435.htm?1c

Mercury News posted this quiz. Supposedly tests one up to the
level of PhD.

I thought it funny that UFOs were mentioned.


Best,

Greg








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               Re: Gordon Cooper & The 'Space Aliens' - Oberg

From: Jim Oberg <joberg.nul>
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 08:00:24 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 16:05:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper & The 'Space Aliens' - Oberg


>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 18:25:06 -0600
>Subject: Gordon Cooper & The 'Space Aliens'

>He became interested in a diagram she had drawn illustrating a flaw
>in the space shuttle thermal system that her "contacts"
>described to her. Cooper writes that he flew to Houston to tell
>a NASA supervisor of Flight Operations about it. Cooper said the
>supervisor, named Bennett James, discussed the matter with NASA
>engineers who identified a real problem with the cooling
>system's design. Maybe the NASA engineers were just humoring a
>famous astronaut, but that would have no bearing on Cooper's
>truthfulness.

It has fundamental bearings on the believability of Cooper's
stories, aside even from the inconvenient fact that Cooper did
not provide a copy of this sketch in his book. Although
convenient for Cooper, James was dead by the time the book
appeared, but associates of his in the engineering office were
not, and I asked them about any late-in-development flaws in the
shuttle's thermal control system that needed correction. I also
checked the historical documentation of shuttle engineering
development in that period.

There is no record of any such design flaw, or of any
corrections made in any such thermal control systems.

A productive line of inquiry to establish credibility for this
story would be to locate such a flaw which was corrected in the
time period consistent with Cooper's activities in that regard.
In the absence of such indications - and my search suggests to
me that there WAS no such flaw or correction - then the current
reasonable presumption is that the story of the flaw is
baseless.

If Cooper met with Bennett James at all, the interpretation that
he was humored as a crackpot and graciously usher out of the
office is also plausible, as suggested by Fleming. I have no
issues with that hypothesis.

As to whether it's unfair of me to characterize the alleged
source of the information as 'space aliens', my only response is
- 'Lighten up.' They were supposedly from space, and they sure
were aliens. Why not track down the woman who said she got the
message, and provide an interview with her?

Maybe she has a copy of the sketch. Or maybe she and those
responsible for Cooper's book realized that the sketch would
obviously show, to any shuttle engineer, the delusional and
unrealistic nature of the original message - and further
undermine Cooper's reputation for sound space engineering
judgment. So it was better NOT to publish it, to leave
readers free to fill in with their own gullible imaginations.


Jim Oberg






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                         Re: Orb Study Site - Smith

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 09:20:58 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 16:07:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Orb Study Site - Smith


>From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 12:20:29 -0500
>Subject: Re: Orb Study Site

>If you are refering to a case where the person sees a orb with
>the naked eye and then takes a photo, then that would be
>different. Orbs generally aren't seen with the naked eye,
>neither are their shadows, due to the size of dust, dirt etc.
>that is, in-part, responsible for their appearance on film.

I have seen orbs with my naked eye. Method 1: On a sunny day
look near the Sun but have the main brightness of the Sun
blocked by some opaque object. You will be amazed at how many
"orbs" fly by. Of course, these are just dust, bugs, debris
reflecting the bright sunlight. Method 2: Illuminate using a
laser or bright light the area in front of your face but try to
avoid illuminating your face or the opposing wall. Amazing
numbers of "orbs" will appear especailly when you shake a towel,
or if you have dandruf, rub your head.

I am not the lucky one to see orbs without these encouragements.








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             Re: Cops & Saucers: Law Enforcement & UFOs 1957 To

From: Daniel Guenther <daniel_g.nul-online.de>
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 15:47:42 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 16:09:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Cops & Saucers: Law Enforcement & UFOs 1957 To


>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates <UFOUpdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 23:17:58 -0600
>Subject: Cops & Saucers: Law Enforcement & UFOs 1957 To 1981

BTW, there is an article on the CUFON website written by J. Allen
Hynek for the FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin at

http://www.cufon.org/cufon/hynek-fbi-leb.htm

You mentioned the famous Portage County case. By accident I just
re-read the details about the 'other' very famous police
officers ufo case from Exeter, New Hampshire on 3 Sep 65. Very
interesting first hand witness accounts at the NICAP 'case
directory' at:

 http://www.nicap.org/exeterdir.htm

What are the most prominent and interesting 'Law Enforcement'
UFO cases?


Daniel G.

--
JTC - UFO sightings database
http://www.ufodb.net








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              Re: Re: Gordon Cooper & The 'Space Aliens' - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 15:07:45 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 16:10:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Re: Gordon Cooper & The 'Space Aliens' - Hall


>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 18:25:06 -0600
>Subject: Gordon Cooper & The 'Space Aliens'

>One seriously misleading characterization of Gordon Cooper that
>Oberg has repeatedly made is that Cooper relayed telepathic
>messages from "space aliens" to NASA. Cooper never used the term
>"space aliens", which is simply the tabloid terminology Oberg
>uses to demean Cooper. It might also be construed from Oberg's
>description that Cooper was personally channeling "space aliens"
>and reporting what they told him to NASA. That is not the case.

>What Cooper actually writes is that he became acquainted with a
>woman named Valerie Ransone in 1978. She claimed to be in
>telepathic contact with an extraterrestrial intelligence. He
>became interested in a diagram she had drawn illustrating a flaw
>in the space shuttle thermal system that her "contacts"
>described to her. Cooper writes that he flew to Houston to tell
>a NASA supervisor of Flight Operations about it. Cooper said the
>supervisor, named Bennett James, discussed the matter with NASA
>engineers who identified a real problem with the cooling
>system's design. Maybe the NASA engineers were just humoring a
>famous astronaut, but that would have no bearing on Cooper's
>truthfulness.

>Cooper spends two chapters discussing his relationship with
>Ransone and a business venture that evolved from it aimed at the
>development of unconventional technologies.

>Whether or not Ransone was actually in contact with ETs is
>irrelevant to whether Cooper was being essentially truthful. I
>see no reason to believe he was not. He mentions the failure of
>this new technology venture and various other weird stuff, like
>the failed attempt to get a ride on a ET ship that Ransone's
>"contacts" had offered to Cooper before (allegedly) changing
>their minds. I suppose that if this incident can't be used to
>prove that Cooper was insane or a liar, it might be used to
>insinuate that he was extremely gullible. Maybe he was taken in
>by Ransone to some extent, but Cooper gives no indication that
>there was any money scam involved. My impression is that Cooper
>was simply interested in exploring subjects like ESP, heedless
>of the fatwahs Oberg's CSICOP colleagues have declared against
>them. Cooper's closing remarks on this part of his life are:

>"Today, I am unwilling to bet my life that the source of the
>astute technological assistance and advice Valerie Ransone
>provided from time to time originated from an extraterrestrial
>source. The test pilot skeptic in me could never be 100 percent
>convinced about her astral connections until I saw her climb
>aboard an alien sacuer and take off. But until that happens, and
>based on what I saw with my own eyes and was able to check out,
>I am at least 80 percent certain that she is, as she claims,
>able to tap into a source of higher intellligence not of this
>planet."

>Obivously, this is far from the 100% disbelief that would have
>been necessary for Cooper to be awarded an honorary fellowship
>from CSICOP, but in my opinion it's far from the gullible
>crackpottery that Oberg apparently wants to tar him with.

Lan,

I acknowledge that this is a pretty good rebuttal to the
accusations or insinuations made about Cooper. However, not
having read Cooper's book or all the pros and cons in past
posts here and elsewhere, and not having the time or interest
to do so, I will leave it to others to thrash this out.

It does seem clear that Cooper's memory was severely flawed
about his role in the Vandenberg landed saucer incident. On the
other hand, the description of the object by the cameraman sure
sounds like a technological obect of a UFO natrure to me,
windows and all!


 - Dick









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              Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 12:24:20 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 16:11:48 -0500
Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -


>From: Daniel Guenther <daniel_g.nul-online.de>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 21:13:42 +0100
>Subject: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online

>As reported at:

>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/oct/m03-002.shtml

>a strange observation was made by Iindian scientists on a research trip.

>I found a photograph of the object which was taken by the group online:

>http://www.telegraphindia.com/1041011/asp/knowhow/story_3833729.asp

>Please note an interesting link about Himachal Pradesh, India, where the incide
nt took place.

>http://www.ibiblio.org/himachal/geography.html


Didn't work for me. Wrong URL?

Don Ledger








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                             Re: Limboids - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 10:32:12 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 16:13:04 -0500
Subject: Re:  Limboids - King


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 17:56:22 -0700
>Subject: Limboids

>Forwarding permission was given by William R. Corliss.

>Science Frontiers, No. 156, Nov-Dec, 2004, p. 2

>http://www.science-frontiers.com

>Biology

>Limboids

>What, if anything, separates life from non-life? To be alive, it
>is widely promulgated that such entities must metabolize,
>reproduce, and evolve in the Darwinian sense. It is also
>popularly believed that living matter is intrinsically different
>from nonliving matter, although one no longer speaks of "the
>breath of life" or of an "elan vital". Even so, knowing all we
>now know, there does still 'seem' to be a fundamental gap
>between life and non-life. Is this gap illusory or perhaps
>filled by entities of which we are not yet aware?

<snip>

>(3) The metabolisms of limboids are too slow and their lifetimes
>too long (millions of years) for us to discern them. In other
>words, they 'seem' inanimate. (This potential attribute was
>suggested by P. Gunkel.)

>(4) The lifetimes of limboids may be too short for us to
>register them.

>(5) The limboids live outside the ranges of our eyes and
>instruments.

>(6) The limboids may incorporate considerable dark matter and be
>hard to detect. Conceivably some manifestations of dark matter
>could exist in recognized visible organisms and perform
>organizing functions that "breathe life" into inanimate matter!

>Scientists have not seriously looked for limboids, but they may
>have caught fleeting glimpses of them, and "laid them back in
>the closet," as Omar mused poetically.

<snip>

Hi Terry,

Excellent post and kudos to Mr. Corliss for his generosity.

This idea of what constitutes life has intrigued me for some
time.

I remember in geometry class, dimensions were illustrated this
way...

A point or line is one-dimensional

A square or polygon is two-dimensional

A cube or polyhedron is 3-dimensional

What comes next cannot be drawn or modeled in 3 dimensions, so
we can only create crude approximations or envision them in our
minds. We know mathematically that the 4th-dimensional cube or
tesseract exists, yet we have no ready means by which to show
it. The usual description goes like, "a cube with a cube at each
of its faces". This sounds good, and a "shadow" of it can be
drawn or modeled with sticks and Styrofoam, but the implications
of how such an object would behave in our perceivable 3-
dimensional world are completely hidden, since that aspect
cannot be modeled in anything less than 4 dimensions.

In the context of this thread, it is interesting that as we say
that we are alive, we explain this by describing the
components... mostly water, some minerals, proteins, and some
barely understood electro-chemical processes which seem to
result in a persistent sense of "being". Also, an entire
ecosystem of bacteria, virii, etc that either depend on the
host, or on which the host depends, or both.

In this context, I find the earth itself aptly described as a
life -form. Mostly water, minerals, proteins, electro-chemical
processes, beneficial and non-beneficial parasitic ecosystems,
etc.

Likewise, I find the idea that life could be related to the dark
matter very compelling, and the strong sense that as we cannot
accurately model in 3 dimensions what exists in 4, we very
likely could have life all around us that we simply are not
equipped to see, or detect.

Is it possible that the dark matter is connective tissue for a
life-form which is as vast as the universe itself? I don't mean
to sound new-age, and I'm obviously not the first to propose the
living earth idea, but is it possible that the universe is
alive, and that multi-timelines are an evolved process of
survival, and that the planets are merely organelles or sensors,
populated by smaller and smaller ecosystems? Is it possible that
dimensions are not finite, but a product of natural selection on
a cosmic scale? Is it possible that this evolution includes the
rise and fall of life forms in all dimensions and on all
timelines?

If the dark matter is truly the connective tissue of the cosmic
"dude", is it possible that clairvoyance, UFOs, abductions, etc
could all have at their root the natural mutations of this
cosmic dude, or by the inadvertent overlapping of dimensions,
and the crossing of timelines either through design or
misadventure?

If we could find the means to communicate in a direct and
universally comprehendible way, we might tap into knowledge of
which we cannot even imagine. We might also find an answer to
Prophecy, ESP, UFOs, abduction, etc. We may evolve right along
with the cosmic dude. Could the "fleeting glimpses" of dark
matter mentioned in the article be analogous to the similar
fleeting glimpses of UFOs, aliens, and other anomalous things in
our collective experience?

Limboids could be the very fabric of reality. I guess we'd be
some form of mutation. The discomforting question is whether we
represent an evolutionarily beneficial mutation, or a cancer.

Great thought-provoking post. Thank you.


Kyle







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                          Re: Igor Returns - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 12:46:06 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 16:16:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Igor Returns - Ledger


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 16:50:03 -0500
>Subject: Re: Igor Returns

>>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 23:08:22 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Igor Returns

>>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 12:44:36 -0400
>>>Subject: Igor Returns

>>>Russian retired Air Force 'UFO' General returns to the news.

>>Col. Gen. Igor Maltsev is in the news now as a result of

>>>receiving an award from Saddam's government during March, 2003.

><snip>

>>>So what, asks the puzzled reader, does this have to do with
>>>UFOs?

>>>Some may recall way back in 1990, during the time of the

><snip>

>>>Recall that the person who reported the sighting to the press
>>>was a man of considerable authority, then General in charge of
>>>the Air Defense of Moscow... Col. General Igor Malts

>In 1967 several newspapers reported the fact that a Soviet Air
>Force Commission had been established to investigate UFOs. Our
>Scientific Attach=E9 in Moscow made discreet enquiries and the
>Pentagon asked if the UK had any information on this.

>This was at the time of the Condon/University of Colorado study
>when, for a short time, you could talk openly about UFOs without
>having a bag over your head.

>We in the West learned that the Soviets, too, had a UFO study.
>Dr. Felix Zigel and others were active in collecting early
>Russian./Soviet UFO reports. There was a story in Soviet Life
>magazine (in English). Looked like a "big thing."

>Then in '69 the Condon study closed, Condon said it was all a
>crock and UFOs and Project Blue Book went away. Surprising
>coincidence: the newspaper stories from the FSU (Former Soviet
>Union) panned UFO studies and researchers went underground, only
>to emerge publicly nearly 10 years later. (Vladimir Azhazha was
>cited as giving a UFO lecture in the FSU in 1976, I think.) Not
>until the early 1980's was is legitimate to discuss the subject
>again.

Perhaps this was a case of the the Soviets mirroring the US
policy re UFOs and their possible tactical advantage, both
technology-wise and for some negative propaganda value. If
memory serves before that time Pravda posted a debunking piece
by Donald Menzel.

No doubt copies of the Condon Report were reviewed by the Soviet
authorities. Perhaps they saw incidents in the report where they
were responsible for a claimed UFO sighting and assumed that
other countries resources were responsible for additional
reports, but also were puzzled by many reports many that could
not have been current global technology. The Soviets had
something with which to measure the NATO side where the free
world was in the Dark about the Soviet bloc.

If that attitude still existed today we wouldn't be getting UFO
reports out of China, the worlds largest ongoing bastion of
Communism, but whose government and scientific community treats
the subject matter very seriously.


Don Ledger








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                          Secrecy News -- 11/01/04

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 12:18:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 16:18:43 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 11/01/04


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 96
November 1, 2004


**      PENTAGON ACKNOWLEDGES, COMBATS OVERCLASSIFICATION
**      RUMSFELD MEMO ON CLASSIFICATION POLICY
**      FEEDBACK ON KERRY AND BUSH AND SECRECY


PENTAGON ACKNOWLEDGES, COMBATS OVERCLASSIFICATION

Stung by charges that it improperly classified records such as
the Taguba report on abuse of Iraqi prisoners, the Department of
Defense has undertaken an initiative to combat
overclassification through increased oversight and training.

"We agree that there are issues related to excessive
classification," said Robert Rogalski, Director of Security,
Deputy Undersecretary of Defense (Counterintelligence and
Security) "and that's why we have processes in place to ensure
classified data can be reviewed and declassified."

"The over classification [of the Taguba report] was not done
with malfeasance, but as a result of the tempo of operations,
lack of training and oversight," he told Secrecy News.  "DoD
information is not classified or otherwise withheld from public
disclosure to protect the government from criticism or
embarrassment."

Mr. Rogalski outlined a new Pentagon initiative to address the
broader overclassification problem, which includes updated
classification guidance, improved training, and increased
internal and external oversight of classification decisions.

"We need to continue to aggressively pursue clarifying the
[classification] policies and educating the people who must
implement them," he said.

Further details of the DoD response to overclassification were
spelled out in an October 29, 2004 reply from Mr. Rogalski to a
query from Secrecy News posted here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2004/10/dod102904.pdf

The Pentagon initiative was praised by William Leonard, Director
of the Information Security Oversight Office.

"I am impressed by the ... actions undertaken by DoD," he wrote
in a final response to a complaint filed by FAS regarding the
overclassification of the Taguba report (SN, 05/07/04).

Both he and Mr. Rogalski noted that as of October 15, the
majority of the Taguba report has been formally declassified and
released (pursuant to a lawsuit filed by the ACLU).

See Mr. Leonard's October 29 letter here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2004/10/isoo102904.pdf


RUMSFELD MEMO ON CLASSIFICATION POLICY

"Information may only be classified if it meets the requirements
established by the President," wrote Secretary of Defense Donald
Rumsfeld in an unusual memo on classification policy that he
dispatched in September to all military commands.

"It is important to state that classifiers shall not: a) use
classification to conceal violations of law, inefficiency, or
administrative error; b) classify information to prevent
embarrassment to a person, organization, or agency; c) classify
information to prevent or delay the release of information that
does not require protection in the interest of national
security," Secretary Rumsfeld wrote, echoing the requirements of
the executive order on classification.

Overclassification is not a new problem.  So what made the
Pentagon send out such a reminder (and undertake the other steps
noted above) now?

Better ask the Pentagon, said ISOO director William Leonard, who
cautioned against being like the proverbial rooster who thinks
his crowing causes the sun to rise.

Pentagon officials would not engage the question directly on the
record.  But there seem to be several factors at work.

First, there was the controversy created by the classification
of the Taguba report on abuse of Iraqi prisoners and related
secrecy actions.  Thus, in his memo Secretary Rumsfeld
specifically called for "corrective action... at DoD components
that generate information related to detainees and prisoner
abuse...."

That basic concern was amplified at an August 24, 2004 hearing
of the House Subcommittee on National Security chaired by Rep.
Christopher Shays (R-CT).  Chairman Shays elicited the startling
remark from Pentagon official Carol Haave that perhaps 50% of
Pentagon information is overclassified.  (SN, 08/25/04).

In case anyone missed the point, it was prominently reiterated
in a Washington Post editorial on August 28 and in an Associated
Press story that ran on the Post Federal Page on September 3.

On September 16, Secretary Rumsfeld sent out his memo to all
commands. A copy was obtained by Secrecy News and is posted
here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/bush/secdef091604.pdf


FEEDBACK ON KERRY AND BUSH AND SECRECY

Secrecy News was perhaps too hasty in proclaiming the healing
power of declassification when it concerns the POW/MIA issue
(SN, 10/30/04). Quite a few readers wrote to express their
dissatisfaction with the Senate investigation of the matter led
by Senator John F. Kerry.

"There are thousands of documents still withheld and many still
classified and hidden," according to one researcher.  "The
POW/MIA Select Committee [chaired by Sen. Kerry] was a miserable
failure in accomplishing its objective in determining the fate
of America's POW/MIAs....  Please have your research assistants
make a less superficial inquiry into the subject matter you
report on."

"Opening up classified files does more harm than good because it
presents a flood of stuff that creates the impression of a great
release of information," contended another writer.  "[The Select
Committee material] was great in terms of volume, but a total
fraud in terms of quality. Little information of real value was
released. Just stuff to keep people occupied and out of the
way."

"I admire your work, enjoy your email missives, and I am also a
strong advocate of open and accountable government," wrote
another. "However, I have to call you on your mention of the
Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs as an example of government
transparency. It was in fact an egregious example of a well
orchestrated cover-up-in- plain-sight used to obfuscate the fact
that our government forsook thousands of POWs."

Others wrote in to express their agreement with Secrecy News.

"This one was excellent," affirmed one reader.  "Kerry deserves
credit for that work which only he and McCain could do.  The
POW/MIA issue was, indeed, a perfect issue for sunshine policies
and the point you have made is one that no one else would make."

"I'd endorse what you say about Kerry's record as an
investigator," wrote another, "both for the POW/MIA report and
also for his report with Senator Hank Brown on the Bank of
Credit and Commerce International which remains the single most
thorough and comprehensive document about what remains (for the
moment) the world's largest ever banking scandal."

The text of that 1992 report on the BCCI affair is here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1992_rpt/bcci/

On the other hand, "I thought you were too kind to Bush," wrote
another correspondent.

"I would take exception to your characterization of his policies
as within the parameters of the law and Constitution.  I think
the Supreme Court said clearly that his detention of Hamdi and
even the prisoners at Guantanamo was beyond any constitutional
or legal authority. This administration has been quick to come
up with novel but unsupported legal theories to justify whatever
actions they want to take.  We have seen this with their memos
on the Geneva convention (the most recent thing about allowing
the CIA to take prisoners out of Iraq for detention and
interrogation).  And Bush's 're-write' of the Presidential
Records Act can only be read as the work of someone who doesn't
care what the statute says."

"Well, we know how you're voting," wrote one psychic reader.



_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

Secrecy News has an RSS feed at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood.nul
voice:  (202) 454-4691







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   Nov > Nov 1

                         Re: Gordon Cooper - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul>
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 10:19:51 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 16:21:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Rudiak


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 13:24:22 EST
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 00:21:17 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 13:39:41 EDT
>>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

<snip>

>>>In any case it is utterly ridiculous that Cooper could take
>>>ultra-high resolution photos showing the rectangular shape of
>>>car license plates from three hundred miles away through the
>>>dirty distorted Gemini windows using only a shaky human
>>>_hand- held_ camera and somehow avoid motion blurring the tiny
>>>details, and at a grazing slant angle through three hundred plus
>>>miles of murky atmosphere instead of looking straight down (when
>>>atmospheric distortion is at a minimum). Simple calculation
>>>shows that just to see the "squareness" of a car license plate,
>>>a minimum of 4 x 2 pixels in resolution, without even being able
>>>to read the letters, using the 1250 mm focal length I think I
>>>read posted here, would be about 30 x 15 feet minimum
>>>resolution, for fine five-micron film grain. This would make it
>>>virtually impossible even to see an entire car, let alone
>>>"unbelievable closeups of car license plates."

>>That 2.6 foot resolution would be perpendicular to the direction
>>of travel, whose resolution would be limited by motion smear,
>>about 25 feet for a 1/1000th second shutter speed.

>We're in basic agreement but you are missing a critical piece of
>data - the Gemini 5's orbital inclination of 32.61 degrees which
>means the farthest north it could go was 32.61 degs north
>latitude. But Area 51 Groom Lake is at 37.2 degs latitude.
>That's about 4.6 degrees of latitude or about 320 miles away!
>The alleged photo of Area 51 could not possibly have been taken
>looking straight down so a perigee distance of only 101 miles
>was not possible.

I stated in my post that the 2.6 foot resolution was for looking
straight down at perigee, while my estimated 12-15 resolution
resolution was for an Area 51 shot at closest approach, also
assuming that film grain reduced maximum resolution by about 50%
(i.e. 3.8 feet resolution at perigee using 100 line/mm film). I
too used a 320 mile horizontal distance.

Cooper did not say he directly overflew Area 51, which, as you
say, was impossible given his orbit. But all he had to do to
photograph it was take slant shot to the north of his orbit.

>A distance of 320 miles is a lot more
>turbulent atmosphere to have to see through than looking
>straight down.

No it's not. That's Oberg's argument and it's false. If Cooper
was at an 180 mile altitude, as he said he was (also the number
given for photos shown in LIFE magazine the month after his
flight), then his elevation angle was about 27 degrees and he
would have been looking through only slightly more than double
the atmosphere than looking straight down. (Gemini 5's apogee
varied from 195 to 245 miles, so Cooper could conceivably have
been even higher than his stated 180 miles and looking through
slightly less atmosphere.)

That's a completely different story than being down at ground
level and looking through 320 miles of atmosphere _sideways_,
like looking at the sun at sunset. Then you're looking through
about 40 atmospheres and there can be a lot of turbulence and
atmospheric absorption.

To look at it another way, if you're down at sea level looking
sideways, every 4 miles is equivalent to about 1 air mass
looking straight up to infinity. Cooper was in the equivalent
situation to viewing objects 8 miles away vs. 4 miles. Objects
like buildings or airplanes do not become impossible to see at 8
miles when they were perfectly clear at 4 miles. That was
essentially Oberg's argument, but it's complete nonsense. The
fact of the matter is, the image of an object at 8 miles is
degraded only slightly compared to one at 4 miles.

>And that is still assuming the alleged photo of Area 51 was
>actually taken at the Gemini's closest approach at its most
>northerly point.

Agreed, but we also don't know that it wasn't. But for the sake
of argument, let's say he was one degree further south or 69
miles further away horizontally. If you assume he was 180 miles
high and do the math, this increases his overall distance by
only 17%. The theoretical resolution of the scope + film drops
slightly to about 16 feet.

Or assume he was 2 degrees from maximum north. That would
increase his overall distance by only 34% and drop his
resolution to about 19 feet.

Even in these less than optimal conditions, his optical system
would still be able to easily resolve large objects at the Area
51 base, such as the hangars and runway.

Cooper was quite capable of taking photos of the base even at
non-optimal distances, showing that a previously unknown base
existed there in the middle of nowhere. The isolation, secrecy,
large buildings, plus extra-long runway would have been a dead
giveaway to somebody like Russian intelligence that this was no
ordinary base. That would be a very good reason for the pictures
to be classified, which is what Cooper claimed happened.

Cooper's scenario is, at the very least, logical, and despite
Oberg's claims, Cooper was indeed capable of photographing the
base in enough detail to reveal it's existence. That doesn't
prove that Cooper's story is correct, but there is currently
nothing to contradict its veracity.

It should also be mentioned that Oberg himself claimed to have
viewed one shot from this experiment showing an area "north of
the Salton Sea" in southern California. The northernmost edge
of the Salton Sea is at about 33.5 degrees, or .9 degrees north
of Gemini 5's most northerly orbital point and Cooper's shot was
of a region still north of this.

One point here is that Cooper was shooting north and _off-
vertical_, contradicting another of Oberg's claim that
experimental protocal forbade Cooper from shooting anything but
vertical. In fact, if you do the math, the photo would have been
at least 20 degrees off-vertical, assuming Gemini 5 was at its
maximum northerly orbit when the shot was taken.

The Salton Sea is also due south of Area 51 by about 300 miles.
So all Cooper had to do to photograph it was tilt his camera
further north at the same time by about 40 degrees and shoot
another photo. If he could photograph north of the Salton Sea,
he could also photograph further north at Area 51. (Cooper said
in his book that aside from predetermined targets which were to
be shot straight down, they could take pictures of anything else
that looked interesting. There was nothing to prevent them from
shooting to the side, as photos like the Salton Sea area
demonstrate.)

Cooper never claimed he was deliberately trying to photograph
Area 51 - quite the opposite. He said in his book he had no idea
why the film was suddenly classified until 1997 when he was told
that he had accidentally photographed Area 51.

>We don't have a date and time to check that. It
>might have been at an even greater distance. We also don't know
>that a good photo could have been taken with such a short
>1/1,000 sec exposure that you assumed for illustrating the
>point.

>It might have only been say 1/10 or 1/100 sec. Faster
>film allowing for shorter exposures also tends to be coarser
>grained and lower resolution that way.

Oh get serious. Cooper had a large 89 mm aperature lens shooting
at optical infiinity in as bright a daylight as you can get.

Using my old 35 mm Minolta, I can _easily_ shoot outdoors in
bright sunlight at 1/1000th second with the aperature wide open
(~25 mm) with the meter set for 25 ASA film (very fine grain).

The whole purpose of the experiment was to test resolution of
telescopic photos from space of targets on earth for
intelligence purposes. Why "on earth" would Cooper use
ridiculously low shutter speeds like 1/10th or 1/100th second
and introduce large quantities of motion blur? As it was, even
at 1/1000th second, about 25 feet of motion blur would have been
introduced in the direction of travel, the main limitation on
resolution, not the optics or film grain.


David Rudiak








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   Nov > Nov 1

                           Re: Limboids - LeClair

From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 11:41:32 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 16:23:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Limboids - LeClair


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 17:56:22 -0700
>Subject: Limboids

>Forwarding permission was given by William R. Corliss.

>Science Frontiers, No. 156, Nov-Dec, 2004, p. 2

>http://www.science-frontiers.com

>Biology

>Limboids

>What, if anything, separates life from non-life? To be alive, it
>is widely promulgated that such entities must metabolize,
>reproduce, and evolve in the Darwinian sense. It is also
>popularly believed that living matter is intrinsically different
>from nonliving matter, although one no longer speaks of "the
>breath of life" or of an "elan vital". Even so, knowing all we
>now know, there does still 'seem' to be a fundamental gap
>between life and non-life. Is this gap illusory or perhaps
>filled by entities of which we are not yet aware?


Dunno. It seems to be like heat. Even what we call cold, or
freezing is heat/radiation. It's only by contrast that we see
cold as something different than heat.

In short, all things can be considered alive, just of a lesser
degree.

To quantify it, imagine an electron has a life magnitude of 1. A
human, a trillion or so. If electrons were inert, than it would
be = 0 degrees of life. Since a trillion zeros still equals 0,
than the so called building blocks of life have to be in someway
alive, (aware, or responds to the universe).

You can't get life from inert dead matter anymore than you can
build a sand castle without sand.








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                             Re: Limboids - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 15:51:03 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 17:01:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Limboids - King


>From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 11:41:32 -0500
>Subject: Re: Limboids

>>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 17:56:22 -0700
>>Subject: Limboids

>>Forwarding permission was given by William R. Corliss.

>>Science Frontiers, No. 156, Nov-Dec, 2004, p. 2

>>http://www.science-frontiers.com

>>Biology

>>Limboids

<snip>

>You can't get life from inert dead matter anymore than you can
>build a sand castle without sand.

Hi Aaron,

Indeed you can't. But since life did not always exist, obviously
it arose from "dead matter". The questions raised... "Is dead
matter inert, or is inert matter dead, or do we even know the
difference?"

We may yet find it possible to get what we perceive as life from
what we perceive as dead, or inert matter.


Best Regards,

Kyle






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                        Re: Orb Study Site - LeClair

From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 16:56:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 17:02:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Orb Study Site - LeClair


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 09:20:58 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
>Subject: Re: Orb Study Site

>>From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 12:20:29 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Orb Study Site

>>If you are refering to a case where the person sees a orb with
>>the naked eye and then takes a photo, then that would be
>>different. Orbs generally aren't seen with the naked eye,
>>neither are their shadows, due to the size of dust, dirt etc.
>>that is, in-part, responsible for their appearance on film.

>I have seen orbs with my naked eye. Method 1: On a sunny day
>look near the Sun but have the main brightness of the Sun
>blocked by some opaque object. You will be amazed at how many
>"orbs" fly by. Of course, these are just dust, bugs, debris
>reflecting the bright sunlight.

Yes. This is called the solar obliteration technique. I've done
it.

>Method 2: Illuminate using a
>laser or bright light the area in front of your face but try to
>avoid illuminating your face or the opposing wall. Amazing
>numbers of "orbs" will appear especailly when you shake a towel,
>or if you have dandruf, rub your head.

>I am not the lucky one to see orbs without these encouragements.

Haven't done this. No dandruff.








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   Nov > Nov 2

                     Re: Shielding & Harassment - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 17:28:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 04:55:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Shielding & Harassment - White


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 11:31:58 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Subject: Re: Shielding & Harassment

<snip>

>>>Seems like demonic forces.

Read below on that. I agree but there is lots to say on that
issue.

>>It's similar, but locked into the other half - the harassment
>>by people - it's not that simple. More than that, our members
>>have tried moving many times, all over the globe, with no
>>cessation in either human or electronic harassment.

>It is distressing that you are going through such harassment and
>I, for one, do not discount your personal experiences but I
>still have trouble with the source/motivation. I cannot see why
>humans would devote such time and effort to queltshing YOU.
>Humans seem motivated by money and power, but driving you into
>the ground does not seem a very efficient expenditure of funds.

We have trouble with that too, and I think the answer is that
this is clearly the work of a huge international organization.
Being an organization, you have a very large number of diverse
motives. At the top, it's greed for having God-like power over
the masses.

At the middle, it's the money and perks and sadistic thrills, if
the anonymous emails from the alleged middle managers are for
real. (They seem real to us.)

At the bottom, it's of course sadistic thrills, and we also know
from David Lawson's book, "Terrorist Stalking in America" that
the lower ranks often stay with it because they are basically
losers and finally they have something that is easy to do, and
the camraderie of their fellow perps is terrific.

** Very importantly, remember the leaders of the lower level
perps tell dreadful _lies_ about the target. Some of the lower
ranking people are religious zealots who believe the Lord has
commissioned them to "straighten sinners out."

When you look at it as a huge organization and a very large
array of diverse motives, it becomes much more understandable.

If you can't accept the idea of a shadow world government, then
you would have difficulty understanding the concept of
international harassment of one in a hundred people.

>Blasting OBL or Kim Il Jun would seem better spent funds.

The shadow world government, which I call the New World Order,
probably controls them and they are serving the secret NWO
plans.

> Also, how do you know that it is humans doing these bizarre
>control at a distance activities?

If you were targeted, you would see the unmistakeable signature
of nasty human intent. Even if the advanced electronics are
computer controlled on a day to day basis, humans still set up
the machines.

And of course human motive is very plain from the non-
 electronic half of all this.

>Did they send you a memo? I imagine they
>are sending voices because that is relatively easy to do with
>RF,

No - RF voice to skull requires a fairly high power density and
precise aiming. Moving around or going inside shielding doesn't
even cause a flicker in the voice to skull we receive. It
occurs out in the wilderness too, no visible source for miles.

>let alone fancy tech we're talking about here. What do they
>say? Is it abusive language? Or do they identify themselves? It
>just seems like you are guessing that humans are involved.

Some of our members do get perps talking to them via voice to
skull. My own V2S is intermittent faked noises.

>I do not know ALL abductee stories, but have you
>read any doing what you have experienced? It seems
>like they are more into medical examines and less
>"puppetry".

I agree - our stories are similar mainly in technology
performance level, not actual sequences of events. But I do
think that whatever helps unravel the abduction technology will
probably help us too.

>On the other hand, demonic/ghost/possession/poltergiest like
>phenomena seem to correspond well with your "control"
>experiences. Moving will not fix it because I have read that
>these forces can move too. If I were you I would check out some
>psychic and see if there is some curse or something. Maybe get
>the home "blessed" or burn some incense!

That has been tried. In one case, the priest threw up his hands
and said he could not complete the exorcism.

And by the way, I am a Christian. But I'm suspending judgement
on one possibility which would explain _all_ features of our
experience, all the advanced technology, and all of the
incredible co-opting of people to harass us, and all of the
incredible "glassy-eyed" responses by Joe Public.

It just may be that this is literally a move by Satan to take
over the entire world. This would explain the _motive_
perfectly. I really have a hard time believing that human beings
could accomplish this myself.

But since we have no way to prove that, I take the Christian
stance when it comes to fighting injustices: We activists do the
best we can with what we have, and we simply leave the outcome
to God.

You may be right about the demonic aspect, in other words.

>>>You have ruled out subsonic acoustic effects which can be tuned
>>>to particular organs?

>>The 4-layer shield around my bed had a great deal of damping -
>> being 4 layers, and the inner layer was conductive foam, which
>>made the unit almost like an anechoic chamber. That, plus the 8-
>>inch concrete walls, floors and ceiling, and fully enclosed
>>balcony which meant two fully weatherproofed sets of windows
>>sound from the outside would have had to pass through. The
>>mattress and bedding also added to the sound deadening
>>qualities.

>It looks like you have got it covered! Inside the shield, do you
>get any readings from a Trifield meter? Any elestrostatics?

I have tried a Trifield meter, and there are some readings in
all three settings, electrostatic, magnetic, and
electromagnetic.

But the problems in my place and many others who have tried this
are that these readings (a) could be from almost any source
(they aren't particularly strong) and (b) they are not in
definitive sync with the mind/body attacks.

One fellow in Mission, Texas had several detection meters
purchased for him by "The Power Hour" listeners. He _has_
videotaped _in_sync_ readings of various types, both RF and
ionizing (radioactivity). The problem is: When you take such
readings to government, and he actually got the U.S. Justice
Department to respond in court, they simply deny it. (And maybe
they are not directly responsible.)

He would be a terrific candidate for a CUFOS environmental
instrumentation study. (Hint, hint, any CUFOS members on
the list?)

>If you had another person with you, does the phenomena stop?

Generally, yes. On _rare_ occasions, the perps will demonstrate
their stuff to an unaware member of the public, probably because
they can't resist showing off. On two occasions about a month
apart, I was with some gals outside my workplace as they were
taking a smoke break. The perps transmitted very loud artificial
and out of season (late autumn) bird calls emanating from a
blank brick wall on a building in the next lot.

I had a close friend stay with me for two months in 2001. She is
an electronic technician and brought three of her own meters.

We both got plenty of sleep disruption, and the perps delighted
in causing us to wake up with a powerful urge to urinate at the
same time, almost every night. They also influenced us to
suddenly need to go for something in the kitchen.

But the most striking example was the day my glassed disappeared
from my closed shoulder bag while picketing, and when I got
home, she lost a huge quarter-pound ring of keys off a bare
table. No other person was in the apartment. She just turned her
back and they were gone. We felt everywhere, in case we were
being hypnotized to not see the keys.

When she and I drove to the optician a couple of days later, I
looked down and, in the quite warm truck cab, there were my glasses.
They were _ice_ cold, far colder than the December weather outside.
Suspecting they had been returned via another dimension, I held
them up and said to her, "Hyperspace!"

A few seconds later (and the truck was in motion all this time)
we heard a loud clunk on the floor of the cab under her knees,
and there were her missing keys.

We have stories from other targets that one will get voice to
skull transmissions or other bodily effects while someone they
are embracing feels nothing. Still other stories say that the
other person gets different effects, or, just a trace of
whatever effect the target is experiencing.

So generally yes, they limit witnesses almost perfectly, but
sometimes
they show off, too.

>This really sounds like a paranormal presence and not like a
>tech device!

Don't forget a possibility I'm convinced of, that devices which
can replicate natural paranormal effects probably exist. After
all, Robert Pavlita in Czechoslovakia after WW II demonstrated
inert shapes made of various materials capable of being
"charged" by a psychic and then being able to replicate
paranormal effects.

>Bizarre. I could only hope you can get someone to record you all
>the time to hope to quell the phenomena.

I sincerely echo your hope!

>>As far as being "propaganda", I know there is always lots of
>>that floating around, but at the same time, I don't regard every
>>Russian as a liar because they lived/live under a crooked
>>government.
>Right. But one must judge what is true and what is made up in
>the cold war years.

Well, Pavlita's work was witnessed by Western scientists
too.

>>** You know what would be great - if CUFOS would lend a local
>>paranormal investigation group one of their UFO abductee
>>environmental monitor clusters - since they told me they have
>>finished - and let the group analyze recorded data from such an
>>instrument during periods of intense effects at my apartment, or
>>of another target. There might be some important clues available
>>there.

>The other approach would be to solicit one of the new cable
>shows which want to verify spooky phenomena. Maybe this will
>increase public awareness, although you run some risk in being
>on TV, it really seems you have little to lose at this stage.

That's a good idea, however, the perps have a strong history of
pulling back when witnesses are present. Our collective
experience suggests that what would happen is that the perps
would simply focus on the zero visible evidence harassment
modes, such as sleep deprivation, fatigue inducement and memory
truncation on the job, and would only do bits of sabotage where
the cameras were not present. They can do arm/hand nudging on
camera, and all the audience would see was someone being clumsy.

Remember, production budgets are not huge and unlike ghost
phenomena where the ghosts don't seem to try to avoid witnesses,
it would probably take a long time, far more budget than
available, to get anything definitive.

I can't afford TV myself, so I don't really know what sort of shows
are on. If someone has suggestions and links to the show sites,
I'll be glad to suggest to our colleague in Mission Texas, the one
with the video tape of his small children squirming in pain while the
meter readings went up, that he try to get them to study them.

Myself, arm/hand nudging, "bee stings", powerful unquenchable
itching when trying to sleep or when trying to enjoy time in the
park, sleep deprivation and _massive_ fatigue, sometimes to the
point of literal collapse on the floor, for which doctors can
find no cause whatsoever, are my menu at the moment. None of
these would provide a convincing videotape, so I'm not a good
subject.

I do think that those of us who are not good subjects might
still produce interesting readings on the CUFOS-type setup,
though.

>I can't see how it can be tech, but paranormal... yes. You don't
>need to have everyone being harassed to get attention. There was
>a movie I forget the name where some lady was harassed (raped)
>by some invisible entity. They made that into a movie. I don't
>see where the world was made a better place by the movie but at
>least it increased public awareness.

Paranormal doesn't explain the solid half of the experience
which is non-stop conventional harassment by people, including
rumour campaigns and lies which never stop until the target's
career and marriage are totally destroyed. You can't explain
this experience by separating the advanced mind/body effects
from the harassment by people.

>The problem is how to differentiate bad luck from demons/ New
>World Order techies/ghosts/aliens/etc.

That _is_ the problem!

>>The levitation and remote manipulation for most targets is not as
>>exaggerated as has happened to me. Most common is having your
>>arm or hand nudged while you are trying to do delicate or messy
>>work. These nudges, if witnessed, would be seen as ordinary
>>clumsiness, but "from the inside" it is unmistakeably a nudge.

>But how do you know the nudge isn't just a random firing of your
>own nervous system.

That is easy. Some of the nudges _are_ but they are in the
minority. Most of the nudges involve _zero_ participation by the
target's own muscles. It is very easy to distinguish.

>I feel a random twinge sometimes and I have
>though maybe it is a ghost or something, but if my eye twinges
>successively, then I am sure its just my overworked eyes and not
>a ghost or something. It is very hard to prove such twinges are
>not generated by yourself.

No, it is easy, once you experience these zero muscle participation
nudges.

>>That's the "game" they play. They want to be _sure_ the target
>>knows he/she is being targetted, but totally unable to prove it
>>to anyone else.

>Well, they seem to be effective.

Incredibly. That is why I don't totally dismiss the Satanic
explanation. But Pavilta's work and all the government crimes
throughout history make me put my money (my "two coppers" which
is about all the perps have left me!) on a very elaborate human
organization. Certainly, as a Christian, I'm certain Satan is
their coach, though.

>>But I'm no scholar - just someone who wants to be left alone to
>>go hang out in peace with squirrels in the park. (Where people
>>walk up and let their dogs off a leash to scare them away, then
>>calmly put the dog back on the leash and leave - sometimes two
>>or three times in a single visit. Totally deniable as
>>harassment. Get the picture?)

>This is something else. This is not tech. Can you film these
>people without them freaking out or camcorder breaking? Such
>people HATE to be filmed.

I got one camera smashed by a really nasty guy who could
probably have made an omelet out of me on the spot. I was just
able to replace the camera.

I can't afford a camcorder or I would definitely try that. But
our collective experience is that when you carry a camcorder (my
friend in Texas does all the time) they still find ways to
harass when you are not facing them.

>But if they are simply regular people
>who have been guided by demons/ghosts/strange probabilty fields,
>then they may be no different than you or me, but really be
>pawns. But to what avail?? Demons clearly need no excuse except
>to cause great pain and drive people to Hell. They also seem to
>have infinite resources. Ghosts are similar except that they may
>be bound to this plain out of shear spite and wish to do harm to
>people or a particular person for some reason (they looked like
>someone who harmed them,etc). The tech part can be probability
>field related, but the motivation is totally obscure when this
>could be used to gather immense wealth, they waste the efforts
>on people with no wealth and power. Seems daft!

It's probably the most daft phenomenon in the history of the
entire universe!


Eleanor White









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   Nov > Nov 2

                          Re: Orb Study Site - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 16:32:19 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 04:56:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Orb Study Site - King


>From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 16:56:27 -0500
>Subject: Re: Orb Study Site

>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 09:20:58 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
>>Subject: Re: Orb Study Site

>>>From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 12:20:29 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Orb Study Site

>>>If you are refering to a case where the person sees a orb with
>>>the naked eye and then takes a photo, then that would be
>>>different. Orbs generally aren't seen with the naked eye,
>>>neither are their shadows, due to the size of dust, dirt etc.
>>>that is, in-part, responsible for their appearance on film.

>>I have seen orbs with my naked eye. Method 1: On a sunny day
>>look near the Sun but have the main brightness of the Sun
>>blocked by some opaque object. You will be amazed at how many
>>"orbs" fly by. Of course, these are just dust, bugs, debris
>>reflecting the bright sunlight.

>Yes. This is called the solar obliteration technique. I've done
>it.

>>Method 2: Illuminate using a
>>laser or bright light the area in front of your face but try to
>>avoid illuminating your face or the opposing wall. Amazing
>>numbers of "orbs" will appear especailly when you shake a towel,
>>or if you have dandruf, rub your head.

>>I am not the lucky one to see orbs without these encouragements.
>Haven't done this. No dandruff.

Hi Aaron and James,

My personal best technique is to take a ball of dust, etc from a
vacuum cleaner bag, and lightly shake it above and in front of the
camera. The best orb shots come from an area between 3 and 7 inches
from the lens(too close for the camera to focus) and with no lens hood
in place. This stuff contains such a diverse assortment of material,
that you may catch several different types of orb in one shot. I wasn't
so lucky, but with time I'm sure I'll get a good "gallery shot". Hair,
carpet fibers, cat dander, ash, etc. each react differently to bright
light, and the camera likewise reacts differently to them, producing a
range of effects, or orbs. I got a really nice image of a "shooting orb"
which was actually a perfectly still hair. The illusion of rapid
movement and motion blur is rather impressive, however.

These artifacts are commonplace and completely understood. To
treat them as anything more than just that is kooky.

To describe them as having feeding tubes, or being under
intelligent control is just absurd comedy.

Of course I could be wrong, but I really don't think so.

Best Regards,

Kyle








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             Re: Cops & Saucers: Law Enforcement & UFOs 57-81 -

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 22:42:38 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 04:58:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Cops & Saucers: Law Enforcement & UFOs 57-81 -


>From: Daniel Guenther <daniel_g.nul-online.de>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 15:47:42 +0100
>Subject: Re: Cops & Saucers: Law Enforcement & UFOs 1957 To 1981

>>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates <UFOUpdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 23:17:58 -0600
>>Subject: Cops & Saucers: Law Enforcement & UFOs 1957 To 1981

>BTW, there is an article on the CUFON website written by J. Allen
>Hynek for the FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin at

>http://www.cufon.org/cufon/hynek-fbi-leb.htm

>You mentioned the famous Portage County case. By accident I just
>re-read the details about the 'other' very famous police
>officers ufo case from Exeter, New Hampshire on 3 Sep 65. Very
>interesting first hand witness accounts at the NICAP 'case
>directory' at:

>http://www.nicap.org/exeterdir.htm

>What are the most prominent and interesting 'Law Enforcement'
>UFO cases?

Daniel,

The NICAP site, my favorite, is an excellent source of
information on specific cases of all serious types and
categories. My book The UFO Evidence, Vol. II, contains an
entire section on police cases, with a table, some detailed
summaries, and full documentation.

Yes, it's very expensive because it was intended for libraries.
Ask your local library to order it. Or if you belong to a group,
chip in a few dollars apiece and order it. See the Scarecrow
Press web site (www.scarecrowpress.com).


  - Dick








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                           Re: Limboids - LeClair

From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 18:05:28 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 05:00:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Limboids - LeClair


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 15:51:03 -0600
>Subject: Re: Limboids

>>From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 11:41:32 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Limboids

>>>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 17:56:22 -0700
>>>Subject: Limboids

>>>Forwarding permission was given by William R. Corliss.

>>>Science Frontiers, No. 156, Nov-Dec, 2004, p. 2

>>>http://www.science-frontiers.com

>>>Biology

>>>Limboids

><snip>

>>You can't get life from inert dead matter anymore than you can
>>build a sand castle without sand.

>Indeed you can't. But since life did not always exist, obviously
>it arose from "dead matter". The questions raised... "Is dead
>matter inert, or is inert matter dead, or do we even know the
>difference?"

I'm not convinced life hasn't always existed. I'm not convinced
that time is something linear, so the question above became
inert and dead for me years ago. I like models similar to David
Bohm's. Fred Alan Wolf deals quite a bit with similar questions
as the ones you are asking.







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             Re: Cops & Saucers: Law Enforcement & UFOs 57-81 -

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 16:25:24 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 05:04:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Cops & Saucers: Law Enforcement & UFOs 57-81 -


>From: Daniel Guenther <daniel_g.nul-online.de>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 15:47:42 +0100
>Subject: Re: Cops & Saucers: Law Enforcement & UFOs 1957 To

>>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 23:17:58 -0600
>>Subject: Cops & Saucers: Law Enforcement & UFOs 1957 To 1981

<snip>

>What are the most prominent and interesting 'Law Enforcement'
>UFO cases?


Hi Dan,

EBK will have details of the recordings on the compilation on
my website in a few days listing all 41 recordings and a
description of each.

However, here's a short list of some of the case recordings on
the disc:

Socorro, NM - 1964
Exeter, NH - 1965
Portage County (Ravenna, OH) -
St. Helen's, WA - 1981
Wanaque, NJ - 1966
Levelland, TX - 1957
Adrian, MI - 1957
Redmond, OR - 1959
Fulton County, IN - 1958
Minerva, OH - 1962
Washtenaw County, MI - 1966
Ashland, NB - 1967
Akron, OH - 1966
Tillamook, OR - 1967
Michigan City, IN - 1967
Los Alamos, NM - 1971
Tilton, NH - 1974
Lumberton, NC - 1975
Ventnor, NJ - 1976
Ocala, FL - 1978
Elmwood, WS - 1975
Erie County, OH - 1967
Sharon, MA - 1966
Milan, MI - 1966
Damon, TX - 1965
Minneapolis/St. Paul, MN - 1965

Best Always,
Wendy Connors
www.fadeddiscs.com








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              Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -

From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 22:15:22 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 05:09:29 -0500
Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To:  ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 12:24:20 -0400
>Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online

>>From: Daniel Guenther <daniel_g.nul-online.de>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 21:13:42 +0100
>>Subject: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online

>>As reported at:

>>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/oct/m03-002.shtml

>>a strange observation was made by Iindian scientists on a research trip.

>>I found a photograph of the object which was taken by the group
>online:

>>http://www.telegraphindia.com/1041011/asp/knowhow/story_3833729.asp

>>Please note an interesting link about Himachal Pradesh, India,
>where the incident took place.

>>http://www.ibiblio.org/himachal/geography.html

>Didn't work for me. Wrong URL?

Don:

The URL worked for me, using Internet Explorer 6.0, but not for
one of my guys, using a non-updated version of IE.

Rich Reynolds








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                           Re: Limboids - Reynolds

From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 22:38:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 05:11:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Limboids - Reynolds


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 10:32:12 -0600
>Subject: Re: Limboids

>>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 17:56:22 -0700
>>Subject: Limboids

>>Forwarding permission was given by William R. Corliss.

>>Science Frontiers, No. 156, Nov-Dec, 2004, p. 2

>>http://www.science-frontiers.com

>>Biology

>>Limboids

<snip>

>Great thought-provoking post. Thank you.

And without invoking quantum mechanics/theory, what about
Teilhard de Chardin or Lecomte du Nouy (even Spengler) where the
biology of the universe is intermingled with the mystical (dare
I say spiritual), and a kind of theology explains life in ways
that can account for things seen in the sky or paranormally?

The movie "The Incredible Shrinking Man" provided a view of Kyle
King's fabric of reality, but it was the Pre-Socratic Greek
philosophers and the great Schopenhauer that formulated the
concept of life infusing all things, even rocks.

I would go far afield to mention more here, but this web-site
might enlighten further Kyle and those who find that there are
more things in heaven and earth than dreamt.....

http://www.icpd.org/science/future.html


Rich Reynolds







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                         Re: Gordon Cooper - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 23:02:31 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 05:12:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Sparks


>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 10:19:51 -0800
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 13:24:22 EST
>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 00:21:17 -0700
>>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

>>>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>>Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 13:39:41 EDT
>>>>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

<snip>

>>>>In any case it is utterly ridiculous that Cooper could take
>>>>ultra-high resolution photos showing the rectangular shape of
>>>>car license plates from three hundred miles away through the
>>>>dirty distorted Gemini windows using only a shaky human
>>>>_hand- held_ camera and somehow avoid motion blurring the tiny
>>>>details, and at a grazing slant angle through three hundred plus
>>>>miles of murky atmosphere instead of looking straight down (when
>>>>atmospheric distortion is at a minimum). Simple calculation
>>>>shows that just to see the "squareness" of a car license plate,
>>>>a minimum of 4 x 2 pixels in resolution, without even being able
>>>>to read the letters, using the 1250 mm focal length I think I
>>>>read posted here, would be about 30 x 15 feet minimum
>>>>resolution, for fine five-micron film grain. This would make it
>>>>virtually impossible even to see an entire car, let alone
>>>>"unbelievable closeups of car license plates."

>>>That 2.6 foot resolution would be perpendicular to the direction
>>>of travel, whose resolution would be limited by motion smear,
>>>about 25 feet for a 1/1000th second shutter speed.

>>We're in basic agreement but you are missing a critical piece of
>>data - the Gemini 5's orbital inclination of 32.61 degrees which
>>means the farthest north it could go was 32.61 degs north
>>latitude. But Area 51 Groom Lake is at 37.2 degs latitude.
>>That's about 4.6 degrees of latitude or about 320 miles away!
>>The alleged photo of Area 51 could not possibly have been taken
>>looking straight down so a perigee distance of only 101 miles
>>was not possible.

>I stated in my post that the 2.6 foot resolution was for looking
>straight down at perigee, while my estimated 12-15 resolution
>resolution was for an Area 51 shot at closest approach, also
>assuming that film grain reduced maximum resolution by about 50%
>(i.e. 3.8 feet resolution at perigee using 100 line/mm film). I
>too used a 320 mile horizontal distance.

Sorry I didn't see you use a 320-mile figure, only saw the 101-
mile figure. I have to post hastily, on the fly.

>Cooper did not say he directly overflew Area 51, which, as you
>say, was impossible given his orbit. But all he had to do to
>photograph it was take slant shot to the north of his orbit.

>>A distance of 320 miles is a lot more
>>turbulent atmosphere to have to see through than looking
>>straight down.

>No it's not. That's Oberg's argument and it's false. If Cooper
>was at an 180 mile altitude, as he said he was (also the number
>given for photos shown in LIFE magazine the month after his
>flight), then his elevation angle was about 27 degrees and he
>would have been looking through only slightly more than double
>the atmosphere than looking straight down. (Gemini 5's apogee
>varied from 195 to 245 miles, so Cooper could conceivably have
>been even higher than his stated 180 miles and looking through
>slightly less atmosphere.)

Slightly more than 2x more atmospheric turbulence is a
significant degradation of resolution. NASA's website for
astronaut photo resolution also figures a typical 2x factor
degradation in resolution for typical slant angles that are not
straight down "nadir" shots.

I don't know why Oberg has to be dragged into this, it's just
about Cooper's claim to have taken photos of Area 51 with
"unbelievable closeups of car license plates." Clearly if the
best resolution was around 15 feet he couldn't even have seen a
car let alone the license plates, unless you call a one-pixel
dot a type of "seeing."

<snip>

>>And that is still assuming the alleged photo of Area 51 was
>>actually taken at the Gemini's closest approach at its most
>>northerly point.

>Agreed, but we also don't know that it wasn't. But for the sake
>of argument, let's say he was one degree further south or 69
>miles further away horizontally. If you assume he was 180 miles
>high and do the math, this increases his overall distance by
>only 17%. The theoretical resolution of the scope + film drops
>slightly to about 16 feet.

>Or assume he was 2 degrees from maximum north. That would
>increase his overall distance by only 34% and drop his
>resolution to about 19 feet.

<snip>

Agreed.







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                           Re: Limboids - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 23:46:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 05:15:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Limboids - Maccabee


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 17:56:22 -0700
>Subject: Limboids


>Forwarding permission was given by William R. Corliss.

>Science Frontiers, No. 156, Nov-Dec, 2004, p. 2

>http://www.science-frontiers.com


>Biology

>Limboids

>What, if anything, separates life from non-life? To be alive, it
i>s widely promulgated that such entities must metabolize,
>reproduce, and evolve in the Darwinian sense. It is also
>popularly believed that living matter is intrinsically different
>from nonliving matter, although one no longer speaks of "the
>breath of life" or of an "elan vital". Even so, knowing all we
>now know, there does still 'seem' to be a fundamental gap
>between life and non-life. Is this gap illusory or perhaps
>filled by entities of which we are not yet aware?

<snip>

>Comments. But humans and their instruments do not observe
>everything. There may be an unappreciated limbo separating life
>from non-life. This limbo could be occupied by entities that
>we'll call "limboids." Science may not yet recognize this
>hypothesized realm of the natural world because:

>(1) The limboids are too small - smaller than the controversial
>nonolife and still inaccessible to today's science.

>(2) The limboids are too large for us to grasp intellectually or
>instrument-wise.

>F. Hoyle's fictional "black cloud" would be an example.

>(3) The metabolisms of limboids are too slow and their lifetimes
>too long (millions of years) for us to discern them. In other
>words, they 'seem' inanimate. (This potential attribute was
>suggested by P. Gunkel.)

>(4) The lifetimes of limboids may be too short for us to
>register them.

>(5) The limboids live outside the ranges of our eyes and
>instruments.

>(6) The limboids may incorporate considerable dark matter and be
>hard to detect. Conceivably some manifestations of dark matter
>could exist in recognized visible organisms and perform
>organizing functions that "breathe life" into inanimate matter!

These speculations as to why "limboids" have not been discovered
parallel the comments I have made regarding the "search for the
intellecton", where the intellecton is defined as the minimum-
sized (whatever that "size" means) element of inteligence or
intellect. For example, I ask the question, what if an electron
is intelligent?

Would we ever know?

Only by its actions I suppose.

But what if it did something intelligent in a femtosecond. It's
action would be over before we could measure it.

What is an electron only did an intelligent act over a period of
millions of seconds. Would it be so slow as to be undetectable?
These comments wouldn't apply just to an electron, but to any
subunit (including complex combinations of atoms) that might
exhibit elementary intelligence. Is a protein that changes shape
"intelligent"? For further amusing details see:

http://brumac.8k.com/AbductionInLife/INTELLECTON.html







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                        Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 04:57:35 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 06:42:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper - Lehmberg


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 23:02:31 EST
>Subject: Re: Gordon Cooper

<snip>

>I don't know why Oberg has to be dragged into this, it's just
>about Cooper's claim to have taken photos of Area 51 with
>"unbelievable closeups of car license plates." Clearly if the
>best resolution was around 15 feet he couldn't even have seen a
>car let alone the license plates, unless you call a one-pixel
>dot a type of "seeing."


Seems to me it's seeing in fact. One pixel could be enough to
make such an identification... in context, of course, with the
pixels around it.

I have yet to read his book. Did Cooper ever say he could read
the license plate?


alienview.nul -:=A6:-
  www.AlienView.net








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                    James Randi's "$1 Million Challenge"

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 06:49:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 06:49:44 -0500
Subject: James Randi's "$1 Million Challenge"




Source: Alternative Science

http://www.alternativescience.com/james-randi.htm

09-12-04


James Randi's "$1 Million Challenge"

Most people have heard of the challenge by James Randi offering
$1 million to anyone who can demonstrate psychic powers.

On the face of it, Randi's challenge must be a good thing
mustn't it? There's a million dollars just sitting there waiting
to be picked up, and all anyone has to do to win it is perform
under controlled conditions the kind of claim we read about
every day in the newspapers - spoon bending, mind-reading,
remote viewing.

So doesn't the mere fact that no-one has won Randi's challenge
prove that such things are impossible? As usual in the murky
world of "skepticism", things are not exactly what they appear
to be.

Randi's $1M challenge was unveiled on 1st April 1996. You can
read its terms in full at the website of the James Randi
Educational Foundation (JREF) the organisation administering the
challenge.*

A quick glance through the provisions seems to show an eminently
reasonable and fair challenge. But now go back and look again a
little more carefully, this time with the kind of critical eye
that Randi brings to exposing cheats and frauds. What you find
are some ambiguities that are likely to make any serious
claimant uneasy to say the least.

The first such ambiguity is contained in the preamble where it
says, "Since claims vary greatly in character and scope,
specific rules must be formulated for each applicant."

This means, quite reasonably, that the rules for any particular
attempt cannot be finalised until a claimant steps forward and
announces what he or she is going to do - bend spoons, read
minds or walk on fire. But it also means that Randi will
fomulate the rules for each individual attempt at his challenge
on an ad hoc basis. And, of course, the claimant has to agree to
these ad hoc rules. If he or she does not agree, the contest
will not take place at all.

The second ambiguity is in Clause 4, which says that "Tests will
be designed in such a way that no "judging" procedure is
required. Results will be self-evident to any observer, in
accordance with the rules which will be agreed upon by all
parties in advance of any formal testing procedure taking
place."

This means, quite reasonably, that there will be no interminable
arguments by 'experts' over statistical measurements. Either the
spoon bends or it doesn't: either the claimant reads minds or he
doesn't. The written rules, agreed up front, will decide.

But it also means that there will be no objective, independent
judging or adjudication, by scientific criteria, carried out by
qualified professional scientists. Randi alone will say whether
the terms of the challenge have been met - whether the metal was
bent psychically, or the electronic instrument deflected by
mental power, or the remote image was correctly reproduced. In
the event that the claimant insists the written terms have been
met, but Randi disagrees, then it will be Randi's decision that
prevails.

Not only will Randi be the sole judge of whether the claimant is
successful, but even if a claimant appeals on scientific grounds
that he has met the agreed terms of the challenge, Randi will be
the sole arbiter of any appeal as well. Randi says there will be
"no judging". In reality, he is both judge and jury - not only
of the claimant's cause but of his own cause as well.

With these two major ambiguities in the rules it would not be
surprising if Randi never found a serious claimant to accept his
challenge. Any potential claimant who reads the rules carefully
will be concerned about two things.

First that the terms enable Randi to draw up specific rules that
are unwinnable - and hence that no claimant would agree to --
 and then enable him to claim that "no-one has won the prize".

Second there is Randi's own objectivity. His position can be
understood from his own writings such as this.

"The scientific community, too, must bear the blame. When a
Mississippi inventor obtained the signatures of some thirty
Ph.D.'s (most of them physicists) on a document attesting that
he had discovered a genuine "free-energy" machine (essentially a
perpetual motion device), and when the U.S. Patent office issued
a patent in 1979 to another inventor of a "permanent magnet
motor" that required no power input, there was little reaction
from the scientific community. The "cold fusion" farce should
have been tossed onto the trash heap long ago, but justifiable
fear of legal actions by offended supporters has stifled
opponents."

Click here for the real scientific facts:

http://www.alternativescience.com/cold_fusion.htm

"These absurd claims, along with the claims of the dowsers, the
homeopaths, the colored-light quacks and the psychic spoon-
 benders, can be directly, definitively, and economically tested
and then disposed of if they fail the tests."

It doesn't seem to have occurred to Randi that the thirty
Ph.D.'s who attested to the new machine might know a little more
about physics than he does.

Given uninformed and prejudiced views such as these, the concern
will be that Randi, as sole judge of success, will never accept
that paranormal phenomena have been demonstrated because his
position is that he knows on a priori grounds that the
paranormal is impossible and hence whatever the claimant has
demonstrated must be merely an unexplained trick of some kind.

I put these ambiguities in the rules to James Randi. He
dismissed them, saying only that I should "read the rules", and
suggesting that I am a "nitpicker" and "pedant".

Randi is a non-scientist who has announced that - by some
undisclosed but non-scientific means - he knows that such
anomalous claims are farcical and 'absurd', and should be
'tossed on the trash heap.'

The real facts are that Randi is doing exactly what he has
accused some scientists of: he has conducted no properly
designed experiments, has published no empirical results
(reproducible or otherwise) and has not submitted himself to any
peer-review process. Yet he expects us to accept his conclusions
as having some scientific significance and meriting attention.

Randi says, "There seems to be a certain quality of the human
mind that requires the owner to get silly from time to time.
Sometimes the condition becomes permanent, a part of the
victim's personality."

Here, at least, are words that no-one can disagree with.

* Find out what happened when a serious challenger applied to
take Randi's "challenge":

http://www.alternativescience.com/randi-retreats.htm



[UFO UpDates thanks Stuart Miller for the lead]








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                 Royal Observatory Shuts Eye On The Heavens

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 06:54:38 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 06:54:38 -0500
Subject: Royal Observatory Shuts Eye On The Heavens




Source: The Daily Telegraph - London


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;sessionid=3DIKIAVRRUFYJWBQFIQMFCM=
54AVCBQYJVC?xml=3D/news/2004/11/01/nproj01.xml&sSheet=3D/news/2004/11/01/ixh=
ome.html

11-01-04


Royal Observatory Shuts Eye On The Heavens

Roger Highfield
Science Editor


A projector depicted the heavenly patterns of light in the night
sky for the last time yesterday at the Royal Observatory in
Greenwich.

A search is now on for a buyer willing to pay around =A37,500 so
that the 39-year-old Spitz A3P projector can be dismantled,
upgraded and installed elsewhere before a =A315 million
refurbishment of the observatory's Victorian terracotta South
Building.

For another =A325,000, the museum will throw in the 24ft aluminium
dome, said Julia Orchard, who is taking sealed bids for the
projector until Nov 5. "We would prefer it to go somewhere where
it will be used," she said. Anton Vamplew, a planetarium
lecturer and guest astronomer on the children's TV programme
Blue Peter, used the projector to give the Caird Planetarium's
last replay of the night sky yesterday.

"It can show the Sun, Moon, planets and the stars, anything that
is visible to the eye," he said.

Now it will be removed to make way for a state-of-the-art
facility, which will open in 2007.

Many planetariums have gone for Hollywood voice-overs and
special effects, but the observatory still wants to use a human
presenter to explain the movements of the heavens.

"I went to the International Planetarium Society in Valencia
over the summer and a lot of planetariums said that, after
showing whizz-bang features, they have started putting on live
shows again because live is the way to go," Mr Vamplew said. "I
put up my hand and said we have been doing it for 39 years
because we know people like it."

Redevelopment will begin in earnest in the new year and the
National Maritime Museum, to which the observatory belongs, has
raised =A311 million of the =A315 million cost of its so-called Time
and Space project to triple the planetarium's size, establish
new galleries and visitor facilities and open up areas of the
observatory that were previously closed.

Peter Snow, the broadcaster, is leading a "Universal Appeal" to
raise the remaining =A34 million. "We are inviting everyone to
take part in one of the most adventurous undertakings in the
330-year history of the Royal Observatory," he said. "Our
ambition is to create a spectacular new environment in which
more and more people can appreciate the wonders of time and
space."

Roy Clare, the director of the National Maritime Museum, said:
"Visitors have already told us that they are excited by the
developments taking place at the Royal Observatory over the next
couple of years."

The museum is building a temporary, digital planetarium to
entertain visitors while the new facilities are being built.

The project has the blessing of Astronomer Royal Sir Martin
Rees, and the Astronomer Royal for Scotland, Prof John Brown.


[UFO UpDates thanks Stuart Miller for the lead]






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                    U.S. Deploys Satellite Jamming System

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 07:02:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 07:02:42 -0500
Subject: U.S. Deploys Satellite Jamming System




Source: CNN.Com

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/11/01/satellite.jamming.reut/index.html

11-01-04


U.S. Deploys Satellite Jamming System

WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- The U.S. Air Force quietly has put into
service a new weapon designed to jam enemy satellite
communications, a significant step toward U.S. control of space.

The so-called Counter Communications System was declared
operational late last month at Peterson Air Force Base in
Colorado Springs, Colorado, the Air Force Space Command said
Friday in e-mailed replies to questions from Reuters.

The ground-based jammer uses electromagnetic radio frequency
energy to knock out transmissions on a temporary and reversible
basis, without frying components, the command said.

"A reversible effect ensures that during the time of need, the
adversary's space-based capability to threaten our forces is
diminished," said Capt. Angie Blair, a spokeswoman. "Following
the time of need, the space-based capabilities used by the
adversary can return to its original state."

The device appears to have been put into service considerably
earlier than had been projected by the Air Force as recently as
February.

At that time, a long-range planning document, dubbed the
Transformation Flight Plan, said such a system would let the
United States by 2010 "deny and disrupt an adversary's space-
based communications and early warning" of attack.

U.S. military control of space is one of four missions spelled
out under a national space policy adopted by former president
Bill Clinton in 1996. The goal is to make sure U.S. forces have
unhindered access to space and space-based services and to deny
an enemy any similar benefits.

The U.S. military has experimented with a range of "anti
satellite" (ASAT) weapons, including lasers, to knock out enemy
craft by destroying them or damaging their sensors.

Theresa Hitchens, vice president of the private Center for
Defense Information in Washington, welcomed the new system on
the ground it would not create debris that could threaten global
use of space and would not destroy satellites, only jam them
temporarily.

"Unfortunately, it seems we are not going to limit our quest for
'space control' to benign systems," she said, citing the danger
of a space arms race.

The deployment was disclosed without fanfare late last month at
a technical conference of the American Institute of Aeronautics
and Astronautics in San Diego, California.

The system is operated by the 76th Space Control Squadron, a
unit created in 2001 to explore technologies for controlling
space, Brig. Gen. Larry James, vice commander of the Space and
Missile Systems Command told the conference.

The Air Force Space Command, in its e-mailed replies, said the
system was built from off-the-shelf commercial equipment, and
made up an antenna, transmitters and receivers that can be
loaded into a trailer and moved from place to place.

Three such systems had been delivered since late last year, the
command said. The program's budget for fiscal 2005 totaled $6.2
million, according to the Congressional Research Service.

The primary integrator was Northrop Grumman Corp.'s Mission
Systems business unit in Redondo Beach, California, said Joe
Davidson, a Space and Missile Center spokesman.

Citing "operational security" concerns, military officials
declined to discuss how the jammer worked but equated it with
traditional Air Force electronic warfare weapons that have been
used since World War II to deceive, disrupt, deny, degrade or
destroy targets.


[UFO UpDates thanks Stuart Miller for the lead]








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                                 Human Races

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 07:09:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 07:09:59 -0500
Subject: Human Races




Source: The Guardian - UK

http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/science/story/0,12996,1340665,00.html

11-01-04


Human Races

Leader
Monday November 1, 2004
The Guardian

When Indonesian archaeologists uncovered the remains of several
ancient skeletons in a remote island cave, the discovery was
hailed as introducing modern humans to an unfamiliar two-legged
cousin: Homo floresiensis. Here were signs that a different
species of human had evolved on an island in the Indian Ocean.
Equally surprising was the news that Homo floresiensis -
 nicknamed Florence, after her home on the island Flores - lived
as recently as 18,000 years ago, meaning that she existed at the
same time as our own ancestors.

But what most captured the world's attention was the tiny
features of the adult skeletons - just one metre tall, with
brains the size of a grapefruit, leading to comparisons with JRR
Tolkien's hobbits. The importance of this discovery, however, is
two-fold. The first is that, despite the pervasive spread of
human activity, there are still surprises out there. The second
and more weighty point is Florence confirms that Charles Darwin
and Alfred Russel Wallace were right.

Darwin and Wallace's theory of evolution argued that species
respond to their environment by adaptation. But there is little
evidence that modern humans - homo sapiens - themselves evolved
in that manner, and instead adapted the environment around them.
The existence of Florence and her fellow hobbits challenges any
dogmatic ideas of sapiens superiority, that human history is an
upwardly rising scale of bigger and brainier people. Instead we
are just one branch of a family tree that could as easily have
flourished along other limbs.

In the case of Florence, scientists think that her smallness is
an instance of a familiar effect of evolution: "island
dwarfing". A species cut off from its ancestors by a
geographical barrier often evolves by shrinking in size as a
means of survival. Assuming Florence descended from Homo
erectus, then Homo floresiensis downsized to adapt to
conditions. Darwin and Wallace would be delighted to see their
theories illustrated in a manner showing that humans are not
immune to natural selection.

This is bad news for creationists who insist on the literal
truth of the Bible. The existence of Florence shows the fact of
species diversity, and the difficulty of separating human from
ape on the evolutionary scale. Because Florence lived at the
same time as Homo sapiens, it shows we shared the planet with
other human species until relatively recently. But it also shows
how little we know of the details of the descent of humankind.
Florence lifts the veil a little, but there are many mysteries
hidden in other caves.


[UFO UpDates thanks Stuart Miller for the lead]







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                     'Surrey Corridor' Out Of This World

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 07:28:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 07:28:44 -0500
Subject: 'Surrey Corridor' Out Of This World




Source: The Vancouver Sun - British Columbia

http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/soundoff/story.html?id=f80235ab-64c
6-4a59-b632-45890135ae0d

10-29-04


'Surrey Corridor' Out Of This World

UFOs seem to favour a 3-km- wide strip running along the
high-voltage power lines


UFO enthusiasts call it the Surrey corridor - a three-
kilometre-wide strip of land that runs from New Westminster to
the U.S. border, along BC Hydro's high-voltage power lines.

It is here, they say, where you will find the greatest
concentration of UFO sightings and alien encounters in the
province.

"I have received numerous reports from inside this area, not
only of sightings, but abduction events," said Graham Conway,
vice-president of UFO*BC, who said anywhere from one-quarter to
one-third of all Unidentified Flying Object sightings in the
Lower Mainland take place in the corridor.

Last year alone, there were 304 UFO sightings in B.C., according
to Chris Rutkowski, a UFO researcher in Manitoba who collects
numbers from provincial groups like UFO*BC.

That made B.C. the number one province for UFO sightings in the
country, with more than twice the sightings of second-place
Ontario, which had 150. It was B.C.'s fifth year in top spot.

And UFO*BC is doing its best to keep track of it all.

The nine-year-old organization posts detailed reports on
sightings and abductions on its website, sends out a quarterly
newsletter to its 60 members and even maintains a toll-free
hotline where B.C. residents can report UFO sightings and alien
encounters.

It's been more than five years since The X-Files left Vancouver.

But when it comes to the things that go bump in the night - be
they aliens, ghosts or Ogopogo - B.C. seems to have no shortage
of people willing to investigate the unexplained.

In addition to UFO*BC, the province boasts organizations devoted
to the investigation of haunted houses and "cryptozoologists"
who specialize in gathering evidence about beings not yet
accepted by science, like the Sasquatch.

And polls suggest there are a lot of British Columbians willing
to believe in them.

A 2001 poll by Leger Marketing suggests British Columbians are
more likely to believe in aliens than most other Canadians.

In all, more than a third of B.C. residents - 36.1 per cent -
 said they believed in aliens, more than residents of any other
province except Alberta (40.7 per cent).

And that same poll found B.C. residents were far more likely to
report seeing a ghost, with 10.4 per cent of us saying we'd seen
one, well above the national average of 6.3 per cent.

What makes our belief in the paranormal so surprising is that,
by some measures, British Columbia is a province of non-
believers.

The 2001 census found that more than a third of us - 35.9 per
cent - have no religious affiliation at all, more than double
the national average of 16.5 per cent and higher than any other
province.

And British Columbians are less likely to believe in that most
self-interested of faiths - life after death - than anyone
else in Canada.

The Leger poll found just 53.3 per cent of us believe in an
afterlife, below the national average of 57.4 per cent and lower
than any other region of the country.

While our selective skepticism may seem strange at first, Barry
Beyerstein, a psychology professor at Simon Fraser University,
says it makes a certain degree of sense.

Beyerstein, chairman of the B.C. Skeptics Association, said our
eagerness to believe in aliens and ghosts may reflect a
spiritual hunger in people that is no longer being filled by
traditional religions.

"These are substitutes for the more traditional kinds of
religion that many people grow up with," he said. "We've left
behind some of our traditional, spiritual beliefs ... and we're
looking for no-hassle spirituality."

Not surprisingly, those who believe don't see it that way.

"I like to consider myself skeptical," said Heather Anderson,
director of the B.C. Ghosts and Hauntings Research Society, a
three-year-old organization.

Believing in ghosts, Anderson said, is simply a matter of
looking at the evidence.

Anderson's society collects reports of ghost sightings and
hauntings. And it also carries out its own "investigations".

One of the most elaborate, she said, was into a townhouse
complex near southeast Marine Drive in Vancouver.

According to Anderson, her group received a tip by e-mail in
2001 that the complex - which contained about 70 separate homes
- was haunted.

After talking to more people at the complex, she said, the group
found that people in seven separate homes had reported
paranormal activity - everything from hearing strange sounds to
seeing a strange white presence in photographs.

"We did some research on the land and found out some amazing
things," said Anderson.

A search of the Vancouver city archives turned up a report about
a tree that fell on a buggy in 1889 as it travelled along North
Arm Road, an early incarnation of today's Marine Drive.

Four of the buggy's occupants were crushed to death, while two
survived.

According to a story about the crash that appeared in the Daily
Colonist, many blamed the crash on a man named James Saint, who
lived near the site of the crash.

A few days before, Saint had apparently put burning coals inside
the trunk of the tree - a popular way at the time of felling
trees.

Anderson refused to provide an address for the complex, saying
its owners don't want it publicly identified.

While the Marine Drive complex is one of the most active
hauntings in the Lower Mainland, the haunting hotspot of the
Lower Mainland - the ghostly equivalent of the Surrey corridor
- is North Burnaby.

"Definitely Burnaby Heights," said Anderson. "That area just
seems to be so incredibly active."

A partial list of Burnaby hauntings on the group's website
includes a "phantom jogger" who appears and disappears in
Confederation Park, nun-like figures seen near Gilmore school at
night and the image of a little boy seen running through the
headstones in the Masonic cemetery.

There have also been several reports of hauntings at Ceperley
House, an old mansion in south Burnaby that now houses Burnaby
Art Gallery, Anderson said.

Members of her society were walking in the house's yard a few
years ago when several of them began to feel as if they were
being followed.

Anderson turned around and took a picture of the stairs behind
them.

When the photo was developed, Anderson said, she was shocked to
see a blurry, white figure in the centre of the frame.

"It seems to look like a lady walking down the stairs," said
Anderson.

In general, as one might expect, the most active areas for ghost
sightings are in the city's oldest areas.

"The old areas seem to be saturated with energy," said Anderson.
"There are more layers of history. ... [More] opportunities for
tragic things to happen."

Ahead Of The Curve

John Kirk, president of the B.C. Scientific Cryptozoology Club -
- which studies the existence of undocumented animals like the
Sasquatch and Ogopogo - is adamant that he shouldn't be lumped
in with people who believe in ghosts and aliens.

"We have absolutely no interested in the paranormal whatsoever,"
said Kirk. "Our entire investigations are based on the
principles of science. And we have arrived at conclusions rather
than beliefs."

According to Kirk, cryptozoologists are simply ahead of the
curve - accepting the existence of new species before
mainstream scientists do.

"We approach it completely from a biological [and] zoological
perspective," Kirk said. "And conservation."

Conservation?

"The habitat of the Sasquatch," he said. "It's incumbent on us
to make sure the habitats are secured."

The cryptozoology club was founded 15 years ago by a group of
people including Kirk, a writer, and Paul LeBlond, a retired
professor of oceanography at the University of B.C.

The club is focused primarily on three creatures: Sasquatch, a
hairy, upright animal that has been reportedly spotted across
North America; Ogopogo, a serpent-like animal believed to live
in Lake Okanagan; and Cadborosaurus, a creature like the Ogopogo
that members say inhabits the waters around Vancouver Island.

And while people commonly refer to "the Sasquatch" or "the
Ogopogo", Kirk says all three have been reported for so long
that there must be several of each.

"The story of Ogopogo is 300 years old," said Kirk. "You have to
have a viable breeding population."

While he believes in the existence of all three creatures, Kirk
- who has written a book called In The Domain of the Lake
Monsters - says he thinks the evidence for Ogopogo is by far
the strongest.

He claims to have seen the beast himself 11 times and to have
interviewed witnesses who claim to have had direct contact with
it - in one case being lifted straight out of the water.

And Kirk stresses that several people have taken photographs and
video of the monster - including a Kelowna resident who
supposedly took a lengthy video of the monster last August.

"The evidence for Ogopogo is pretty darn strong," he said.

Indeed, Kirk says there is far more evidence for Ogopogo than
for its more well-known cousin, the Loch Ness Monster in
Scotland.

"I've been to Loch Ness and I believe that nothing actually
lives there," said Kirk, saying he suspects instead that people
have simply seen "an unknown species of very large eels" that
travel through the lake as a shortcut between ocean waters.

Kirk feels he knows Ogopogo so well that he can give a
reasonable description of what it would look like: anywhere from
four to 25 metres long with a serpentine body and small legs on
its front and back that push it along.

"The front legs do a breast stroke and the rear legs do a push-
off kind of motion," he said.

And somehow - Kirk says he's not sure exactly how - it is able
to move its body in such a way as to create humps in the water.

"Whether it uses air bladders or whatever ... it's able to swim
in a hump or series of humps," he said.

And while he is less familiar with it, Kirk says the Sasquatch
is a hairy primate that grows to as high as 270-centimetres
(nine feet) tall and weighs about four times as much as the
average man.

It also smells really bad - like rotten eggs, according to some
reports.

The biggest problem cryptozoologists have is explaining why -
if such large creatures have existed for hundreds of years -
no one has ever found a dead one, or even a skeleton.

"The acidity of the soils in this province tend to lead to quick
disintegration of remains," said Kirk, saying that may explain
why a Sasquatch has never been found.

As for Ogopogo, Kirk points to the incredible depth of Lake
Okanagan - where, he says, temperatures drop to just below
freezing.

"In that kind of a climate, a carcass is fairly well preserved
and does not deteriorate and float to the surface," he said.
"They tend to sink down or be suspended in the water column."

Designed To Believe

Without more convincing evidence, Beyerstein says he can't
believe in things like ghosts, aliens and monsters.

But he understand why other people do: Our brains are designed
to believe.

"There's pretty good evidence from cognitive psychology that
magical thinking is the default mode," said Beyerstein. "That's
kind of the natural way our brains work. We come wired up to
believe this kind of thing."

In part, Beyerstein said, we believe in the supernatural because
it's nice to believe in something larger and more powerful than
ourselves.

"It's comforting to believe that there is justice in the
universe and it's meted out by some supernatural force," he
said.

Ghosts imply an afterlife, he said, which makes death - of
ourselves or loved ones - less scary.

And aliens suggest there is a wiser, more advanced society out
there than our own.

The motivation behind beliefs in monsters like Ogopogo and
Sasquatch is more complex, he said.

"Some of it is kind of a chip on the shoulder, wanting to prove
the experts wrong," he said. "[Or that] despite the fact we've
messed up the world and polluted it, there are some creatures
that are too smart for us and keep out of our clutches and ...
remind us that we aren't so smart after all."

A lot of paranormal belief can also be explained simply by the
human mind's desire to find patterns in the world.

Just as many of us see well-defined objects when we look at
clouds in the sky, Beyerstein said, we turn mysterious objects
in the water into a lake monster or the creaks of a house
settling into a ghost.

"Our minds are built to make sense out of vague and indistinct
stimuli and we do it all the time," he said. "We're pattern
detectors. ... And we are often so good at doing that that we
see patterns that aren't there."

More difficult to explain are those people who claim to have had
direct contact with paranormal creatures.

Kelowna resident Corina Saebels said she and a friend were
stargazing in a rural area just outside Kelowna around midnight
on July 31, 2003, when they saw a bright green, oval-shaped
craft hovering in the sky.

"At that point, I flashed on the light down the road ahead of us
and there were five sets of eyes staring at us," said Saebels.

She and her friend rushed back into her Jeep and drove home.

Saebels said she recalls the creatures having large, almond-
shaped dark eyes and bulbous heads.

As they were driving back home, Saebels said, she and her friend
looked at the clock and noticed it was several minutes past 1
a.m.

"It would be a little over an hour's missing time," said
Saebels. "We have no idea what happened. As far as we're
concerned, we were only out there five or six minutes tops and
we left."

The day after their experience, Saebels said, her friend had a
round circular burn mark on her back.

Saebels said she had large bruises on her chest and on one of
her feet.

"I've had strange medical things happen ever since," she said.

She now runs a support group in the Okanagan for others who
claim to have been abducted by aliens. The group - about eight
people - meets once a month, she said.

Saebels said she's no longer in contact with her friend and
wouldn't provide her name or contact details.

Conway of UFO*BC said he's met more than 350 people like Saebels
who claim to have had encounters with aliens or to have been
abducted.

"These people are not telling a story to me, they are reliving a
series of events and there is a great deal of emotional content
to what they're telling me," he said.

Beyerstein said he doesn't doubt that the majority of people who
claim to have had encounters with aliens or other creatures are
sincere.

But he said he thinks they are mistaken.

Beyerstein said research into such supposed abductees indicates
few are suffering from severe mental problems - such as
schizophrenia - that could cause hallucinations. But he said
there is some evidence that such people have highly suggestible
personalities and may be more prone to waking fantasies,
especially when they're sleep-deprived.

"There's a lot of research on what is known as fantasy-prone
personalities - people who experience what might be called
waking dreams," he said. "They have such rich fantasy lives and
they experience such visual imagery with all of their senses
that they sometimes have trouble distinguishing episodes of
reality from fantasy and they kind of waft back and forth
between them."

Of course, in some cases, explanations for the supernatural may
be more simple.

Elisha Moreno, a spokeswoman with BC Hydro, said high-voltage
power lines - like the ones along the "Surrey Corridor" where
so many UFO sightings take place - often give off strange
lights, especially on rainy days or if there is debris on the
insulating wires.

"It can be yellow. It can be blue. It can be blue-green," she
said. "When you have [electricity] travelling at a very high
voltage like that, there is some line loss that takes place.
It's a leakage current."

cskelton.nul

What British Columbians Believe:

B.C. residents are less likely to have traditional religious
beliefs ...

The percentage of people who say they have no religious
affiliation:

Canada: 16.5%

B.C.: 35.9%

Alberta: 23.6%

Prairies: 17.3%

Quebec: 5.8%

Ontario: 16.3%

Atlantic Provinces: 8.2%

Source: Statistics Canada, 2001 Census

The percentage of people who say they believe in life after
death:

Canada: 57.4%

B.C.: 53.3%

Alberta: 60.0%

Prairies: 59.6%

Ontario: 59.6%

Quebec: 54.0%

Atlantic Provinces: 59.8%

Source: Leger Marketing Poll, 2001

...but more likely to believe in some aspects of the
supernatural.

The percentage of people who say they've seen a ghost:

Canada: 6.3%

B.C.: 10.4%

Alberta: 7.1%

Prairies: 7.7%

Ontario: 6.8%

Quebec: 3.2%

Atlantic provinces: 4.8%

Source: Leger Marketing Poll, 2001

The percentage of people who say they believe in aliens:

Canada: 31.5%

B.C.: 36.1%

Alberta: 40.7%

Prairies: 33.0%

Ontario: 27.1%

Quebec: 3 4.2%

Atlantic provinces: 24.3%

Source: Leger Marketing Poll, 2001

B.C. WEB SITES ABOUT THE SUPERNATURAL:

UFO*BC

http://www.ufobc.ca/

British Columbia Ghosts and Hauntings Research Society

http://www.westghosts.org/bc/

British Columbia Scientific Cryptozoology Club

http://www.cryptosafari.com/bcscc/

B.C. Skeptics Association

http://www.seercom.com/bcs/index.cgi


c. The Vancouver Sun 2004


[UFO UpDates thanks http://www.anomalist.com &
 Richard Hendricks for the lead]






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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Nov > Nov 2

                     Plans 1 Through 8 From Outer Space

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 07:35:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 07:35:08 -0500
Subject: Plans 1 Through 8 From Outer Space




Source: The Corvallis Gazette-Times -  Corvallis, Oregon

http://www.gazettetimes.com/articles/2004/10/31/entertainment/columnists/rew=
ind/ginn.txt

10-30-04


Plans 1 Through 8 From Outer Space

Bad acting, worse special effects ... or possibly the end of the
world?

We were on a kick =97 an Ed Wood sort of kick. We'd just seen the
stunning DVD release of Tim Burton's film about the director of
such classics as "Plan 9 From Outer Space," and "Glen or
Glenda," and we just couldn't get enough. So we =97 my friend
Melissa and I =97 grabbed up a box set of Wood's original films
and dropped in on our old friend Doc Baxter to see if he was up
for our annual Halloween marathon. One way or another over the
past several years, our Halloween seemed inextricably linked
with Doc Baxter, and somehow a movie marathon was always
required to set things right.

Doc was happy to see us as we arrived at his humble, lab
equipment strewn home. Until, that is, we held up the box set.
He flinched and paled at the sight of it; his genial, if
slightly absent-minded smile, faded.

"Oh yes, =91Plan Nine,' bad effects, bad acting, bad dialogue. Oh
yes, very funny," Doc said, leading us into his living room,
where he collapsed onto his favorite leather wing-back chair.

"Plan 9," he said, then was silent for a minute. When he spoke
again, it was as a haunted man, full of remorse. "It was decades
ago, I was a young man then, recruited out of MIT to be part of
a special opps team for a top-secret agency. We ... fixed things
... covered up and erased traces of inconvenient truths. =91Plan
Nine' =97 well, that was one of our masterpieces, perhaps our
greatest success."

Melissa and I exchanged glances. "Plan Nine"? Aliens trying to
take over the world by raising an "army of the dead"?

"Doc, you're not trying to suggest ... that ... "

Doc shook his head. "I'm not trying to suggest anything. I'm
telling you straight out: It's a documentary. Or it would have
been if my team hadn't stepped in. Let's just say that one dark
night, security at Wood's editing room was compromised. What a
word that is, compromised. We got almost everything, all the
actual footage of flying saucers, the real zombies and all the
negative stock, too. I'm not proud of it now; we practically
stole that poor man's entire life that night. When he found out
what he'd done, he sort of went crazy. Started re-shooting
everything on the cheap with whatever budget he had left. That
was a bonus we hadn't even expected. The movie came out =97 and
every bit of it true =97 but now everyone thought it was some kind
of joke. Oh yes, very funny. America =97 the whole world =97 very
nearly destroyed by soulless zombies. It's a laugh a minute fun-
fest."

Doc fell into silence, staring somberly at the floor. We'd seen
Doc in many moods, usually as a genial tweed-clad, pipe-smoking
scientist who knew everything about everything. We'd also seen
him in lab coat mode, when he was blindly trying to learn things
humans were never meant to know. But we had never seen him like
this, so somber and sad.

"It wasn't the first time it had happened either," Doc said at
last. "When we saw how well the =91Plan Nine' ruse worked, we
helped Hollywood release a number of fictionalized accounts of
plots we'd covered up. It was the =91hide in plain sight' concept
carried to its most extreme. Hide the truth by making a movie
out of it."

Doc rose from the chair, turned the TV on and popped a DVD into
the player. "I'll show you what I'm talking about. I've got them
all right here. All these things actually happened. Now they're
just Hollywood footnotes, amusing little fables that no one
takes seriously."

The first film Doc showed us was "Invaders From Mars," a classic
little gem from 1953. It's the story of a young science whiz,
David Maclean (freckle-faced Jimmy Hunt) who wakes very late one
night to see a flying saucer land in a field behind his house.
His father investigates the landing, but disappears for several
hours. When he returns, he insists that nothing is wrong and is
very irritable and not like himself.

David tries to solve the mystery; why is his father so mean all
of a sudden? Where did he go for so long? What's the deal with
the strange little scar that has suddenly appeared on his
father's neck?

David tries to get help from all the adults he can think of and,
one by one, the adults are lured to the sandy field where they
promptly disappear, accompanied by eerie choral music that
sounds electronically modified. Finally, the army gets involved
for a thrilling climax in tunnels beneath the field as the army
confronts giant bug-eyed martians as well as the iconic image of
the "head" martian =97 literally a head =97 carried around in a
glass globe by the Martian drones. The Martian is described as
"mankind developed to his ultimate intelligence." Why it's a man
and not a Martian in the jar is never explained.

The film was shot in Eastman color, which does not age well at
all, so colors that once must have been vivid and exciting now
are mostly washed out and murky, but the movie still has a
certain power. I remembered seeing the movie as a child, and how
it scared the bejeebers out of me. That creepy music bores into
your primal brain and stays there, so that years later someone
that knows the movie can start trying to sing it, and you will
have no choice but to tell them to knock it off at once. The
American version of the film also ends on a note that was to
become a trademark of the 1950s science fiction film: the
question mark. The End, or is it? Cue the eerie music.

When the movie was over, Melissa and I exchanged knowing
glances. I said. "So what you're saying, Doc, is that =91Invaders
=46rom Mars' ..."

"Is real, yes. Fictionalized, but essentially all true."

Melissa said, "And you got the idea of covering up true stories
with Hollywood movies by seeing =91Plan 9 From Outer Space'?"

"Yes," Doc said, already knowing where we were going with this.

"But Plan 9 came out several years after =91Invaders,' right?"

Doc held up his hand, cutting us off. "Two words: time travel."

"Time travel?"

"Yes, time travel is the answer to nearly all of your
questions," he said, changing DVDs.

Next feature on the bill was "Killers From Space," a 1954 film
perhaps most notable for being directed by W. Lee Wilder,
brother of Billy Wilder, creator of such films as "Sunset
Boulevard" and "Some Like it Hot."

"Killers" is the tale of an atomic scientist, studying what
seems to be near daily nuclear explosions in New Mexico. While
flying an instrumentation run near one mushroom cloud, his plane
crashes. Staggering out of the desert a couple of days later, he
is a much changed man. How did he survive? Where has he been all
this time? And what's the deal with the strange scar on his
chest?

The scientist, played by Peter Graves, behaves strangely, as if
under control of another entity, and steals some classified
information. Captured, and under hypnosis, he relates a strange
story of how he survived, taken in to the underground lair of
aliens who then operated on him, restoring his life. The aliens
come from a world that is circling a dying sun, which has forced
them to evolve giant ping-pong ball eyes. Earth, it seems, is
the ONLY ONE that can support their race. To clear the Earth of
humans, the aliens are breeding an army of giant lizards,
spiders, grasshoppers and scorpions that, when unleashed, will
eat all humans until humans are no more. Needless to say, the
plan was perhaps, in retrospect, not as thought out as it should
have been.

"Don't be so sure about that," Doc said in answer to my joke.
"Half the big-bug movies of the '50s are just coverups of the
monsters that escaped from =91Killers From Space.' "

"Robot Monster" was next on the bill. Some say it rivals "Plan
9" for awfulness of acting, writing, directing and certainly
costume design. Doc got very grim, however, as we sat down to
watch. When the Robot Monster, or Ro-Man, as he is called, first
appeared on the screen =97 a deep sea diver helmet on top of a
bulky gorilla costume, Doc silenced our derision.

"Don't laugh. Don't you dare laugh. Humanity has never been
closer to the brink," he said. "Besides which, the real Ro-Man
was even dumber looking in person."

Ro-Man, a soldier unit from the planet Ro-Man, has been sent to
Earth to launch a pre-emptive strike against Hu-Mans, who, it is
feared, are the only race capable of challenging the might of
the science worshipping Ro-Mans. After vigorous applications of
his Calcinator Death Ray (one of the very worst kind of death
rays, Doc assured us), and attacks by dinosaurs created to
devour Hu-Man life ("Are you seeing any patterns here?" Doc
asked) The entire population of the world is down to eight
people, though we only see six of them in the movie.

Ro-Man is ordered by his leader, Great Guidance, to kill the
remaining Hu-mans. Contacting them via view screen, he kindly
offers them a choice between "a painless surrender death and a
horror of resistance death," but the plucky humans will have
none of it, preferring instead to fight to the last.

In the end, Ro-Man loses, undone by his lust for a human female;
but in a surprise ending, neither do the humans win. Great
Guidance destroys the whole planet, Ro-Man, Hu-Man and all.
Unless, of course, it was all just a dream, or is it? Cue the
eerie music.

" =91Robot Monster' is real?" Melissa asked. "All the cities
destroyed? Everyone killed except for one family? You don't just
cover something like that up with a movie. I'd think something
like that would've made the newspapers."

Doc smiled, touched a finger alongside of his nose: word to the
wise, "Don't believe everything you've never read," he said
mysteriously.

"But how ..."

"Time Travel," Doc said.

And so it continued throughout the afternoon, one invasion, one
plan for the destruction of humanity at a time. All of it true;
all of it diminished to cheap entertainment.

We watched "It Conquered The World" which should have been
impossible since it hasn't been released on DVD, about an alien
from Venus set to take over the world using flying amoeba brain
suckers that attach themselves to humans.

We watched "Invasion of the Body Snatchers," a genuinely creepy
classic about humans being replaced by soulless duplicates.

We watched "Atomic Submarine," in which earth is attacked by an
infuriatingly arrogant, one-eyed creature that is sinking ships
from its hiding place under the polar ice cap.

So many movies, so many coverups, and Doc right there at the
heart of it all. It was difficult to tie the mild mannered Doc
we knew to all of that subterfuge and derring-do.

As we finished the list with "Plan 9 From Outer Space," Doc
provided a running commentary on all the points that the film
had right, even if the footage had been poorly recreated. I
tried to picture a young Doc Baxter, racing around the world,
putting a stop to alien invasions, then creating cover stories
with his elite squad of science commandos. I wondered if we
could ever again be friends with Doc Baxter. True, his actions
had probably been necessary at the time to promote calm and
order, but know I felt uncomfortable around him; it was like,
"who is this man?" I realized that after all these years, I
never even knew him. Not even a little.

But as "Plan 9" finished, the strangest thing happened. A
humming sound began building in the room, and over in the
corner, next to the TV, the air began to glow and shimmer; the
air blurred into a void, and out of that void stepped a young
Doc Baxter. We knew right away it could be no one else.

Young Doc looked at the end of Plan Nine and smiled. Old Doc
smiled too, "I remember this scene like it was yesterday," he
said.

"You weren't supposed to remember it at all," young Doc
answered. "Looks like the treatments must have worn off at last,
probably triggered by this movie."

Then young Doc addressed Melissa and me. "And you, of course,
were never meant to know any of this either."

Then young Doc pointed some kind of device, like a TV remote, at
all three of us and he pushed a button. The whole world took on
that same shimmery blurred look, and a sickening vertigo fell
over me.

A moment later, it was like waking up, standing on the sidewalk
outside of Doc Baxter's house. I was gripped by the most
powerful feeling of Deja vu I'd ever experienced, and something
in my mind, like the most ridiculous notions about Doc Baxter I
could imagine. Only thinking about it now, later, am I able to
piece together the jumbled pieces of what must surely have been
a dream. It would have to be a dream; I don't know.

All I can say now, for sure, is this: As we approached Doc's
door, Ed Wood box set in tow, as I pushed the doorbell, I had
the strongest feeling that this should have been the end =97 of
something =97 but of course, it wasn't.

Or was it?

[UFO UpDates thanks http://www.anomalist.com & Richard Hendricks
 for the lead]






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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Nov > Nov 3

                         Re: Human Races - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:03:13 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 05:37:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Human Races - Balaskas


>Source: The Guardian - UK

>http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/science/story/0,12996,1340665,00.html

>11-01-04

>Human Races

>Leader
>Monday November 1, 2004
>The Guardian

>When Indonesian archaeologists uncovered the remains of several
>ancient skeletons in a remote island cave, the discovery was
>hailed as introducing modern humans to an unfamiliar two-legged
>cousin: Homo floresiensis. Here were signs that a different
>species of human had evolved on an island in the Indian Ocean.
>Equally surprising was the news that Homo floresiensis -
> nicknamed Florence, after her home on the island Flores - lived
>as recently as 18,000 years ago, meaning that she existed at the
>same time as our own ancestors.

Hi Everyone!

Species is defined as organisms that shares a distinctive form
and are capable of interbreeding. Although dogs come in a large
variety of sizes and assorted appearances, they can interbreed
and so by this simple definition they are all related or one
species. All humans are also one species.

>But what most captured the world's attention was the tiny
>features of the adult skeletons - just one metre tall, with
>brains the size of a grapefruit, leading to comparisons with JRR
>Tolkien's hobbits. The importance of this discovery, however, is
>two-fold. The first is that, despite the pervasive spread of
>human activity, there are still surprises out there. The second
>and more weighty point is Florence confirms that Charles Darwin
>and Alfred Russel Wallace were right.

Yes, there are still surprises out there. Science is always
catching up with facts and constantly evolving. I predict that
the next similar major discovery by science, although long known
or written about by the local cultures, is the discovery of
dinosaurs still alive today or just recently extinct. As for the
second point, Darwin's and Wallace's theories, although these
are accepted by many and is a popular view, they have still not
been proven to be correct by the facts.

>Darwin and Wallace's theory of evolution argued that species
>respond to their environment by adaptation. But there is little
>evidence that modern humans - homo sapiens - themselves evolved
>in that manner, and instead adapted the environment around them.
>The existence of Florence and her fellow hobbits challenges any
>dogmatic ideas of sapiens superiority, that human history is an
>upwardly rising scale of bigger and brainier people. Instead we
>are just one branch of a family tree that could as easily have
>flourished along other limbs.

Yes, species do respond to their environment by adaptation but
unfortunately for those who hold the same beliefs as Darwin and
Wallace, there is not a single scientifically proven example
that any new species indeed evolved this way. Anything else not
based on the actual facts, including the statement that "we
(humans) are just one branch of a family tree" is only a
scientific guess or a speculation at best.

>In the case of Florence, scientists think that her smallness is
>an instance of a familiar effect of evolution: "island
>dwarfing". A species cut off from its ancestors by a
>geographical barrier often evolves by shrinking in size as a
>means of survival. Assuming Florence descended from Homo
>erectus, then Homo floresiensis downsized to adapt to
>conditions. Darwin and Wallace would be delighted to see their
>theories illustrated in a manner showing that humans are not
>immune to natural selection.

The author of this 'Guardian' article interprets this news of
the discovery of humans of small stature in light of the current
and widely accepted world view but necessarily the true one.
Darwin's and Wallace's theories go well beyond natural
selection, a simple concept which pre-dates and held by others.
Their beliefs that evolution by natural selction to create new
species is not supported by this new discovery so I can't see
how Darwin and Wallace would be delighted unless they have since
changed their erroneous beliefs and appreciate that mankind are
making new findings which will lead them closer to the truth.

>This is bad news for creationists who insist on the literal
>truth of the Bible. The existence of Florence shows the fact of
>species diversity, and the difficulty of separating human from
>ape on the evolutionary scale. Because Florence lived at the
>same time as Homo sapiens, it shows we shared the planet with
>other human species until relatively recently. But it also shows
>how little we know of the details of the descent of humankind.
>Florence lifts the veil a little, but there are many mysteries
>hidden in other caves.


On the contrary, this is great news for the thinking person and
a vindication of the Bible which describes tall and short humans
co-existing in the distant past as there are now. The very short
Pgymies and the very tall Bushmen who occupy the same geographic
region certainly have had to adapt to the same environment but
Darwin's and Wallace's evolutionary cannot explain this simple
present day fact.

If it can be established that human/ET hybrids are a reality (as
mentioned in an overlooked ET document - The Bible - and written
about by some respected UFO abduction researchers) then humans
and these alien human-like creatures are very closely related
biologically and are by definition one species. If we were
separated millions or billions of years ago, this would be an
excellent example that proves Darwin and Wallace were wrong. If
humans and ETs have no biological relationship at all, then this
would be strong evidence of a Supreme Creator or God since the
"brushstrokes" of a common artist would then be apparent and
obvious to all.


Nick Balaskas







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Nov > Nov 3

                           Re: Human Races - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:12:22 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 05:37:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Human Races - Boone



>Source: The Guardian - UK

>http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/science/story/0,12996,1340665,00.html

>11-01-04


>Human Races

>Leader
>Monday November 1, 2004
>The Guardian

>When Indonesian archaeologists uncovered the remains of several
>ancient skeletons in a remote island cave, the discovery was
>hailed as introducing modern humans to an unfamiliar two-legged
>cousin: Homo floresiensis. Here were signs that a different
>species of human had evolved on an island in the Indian Ocean.
>Equally surprising was the news that Homo floresiensis -
>nicknamed Florence, after her home on the island Flores - lived
>as recently as 18,000 years ago, meaning that she existed at the
>same time as our own ancestors.

This is a very important find and supports my theory that we may
not be the apex of intelligence along not only the hominid line
but perhaps other offshoots along the track.

There's no telling what has evolved over the millenia and where.
There've been catastrophes we may not be aware of where other
civilizations and offshoots had flourished to who knows what
level of mental and technological developement.

We, like some insects alter our environments to suit our needs.

One is either the effect of the environment or cause over it.

Considering the growing evidence of civilizations found under
the seas and who knows what else buried under volcanic and wash
debris we should be flexible enough to entertain the possibility
that we've had or still do have cousins that don't fit the mold.

I recall in college studying anthropology and archaeology and
finding out that we don't have enough manpower dedicated to the
field research necessary to really know what's happened.

There are only a smattering of skeletons including the
dinosaurs. Finding a complete skeleton is a rarity. We often
find just teeth or vertabrae and then extrapolate and speculate.
And that's only on the surface of the planet. No telling what
the waters have covered.

The true picture of evolution on this planet is far from over
and I'ld bet we're due to some major suprises as the
technologies for survey and excavation improve.

Hold on to your hats, being an advanced civilization doesn't
necessarily mean global conquest. Could be just a few hundred
thousand beings with the right conditions went from bipedalism
to aircraft in a few thousand years where it's taken us millions
of years to go from stone knives and bear skins to DVDs.


Best,

Greg








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
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   Nov > Nov 3

                        Re: Orb Study Site - LeClair

From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:39:01 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 05:44:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Orb Study Site - LeClair


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 16:32:19 -0600
>Subject: Re: Orb Study Site

>>From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 16:56:27 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Orb Study Site

<snip>

>My personal best technique is to take a ball of dust, etc from a
>vacuum cleaner bag, and lightly shake it above and in front of
>the camera. The best orb shots come from an area between 3 and 7
>inches from the lens(too close for the camera to focus) and with
>no lens hood in place. This stuff contains such a diverse
>assortment of material, that you may catch several different
>types of orb in one shot. I wasn't so lucky, but with time I'm
>sure I'll get a good "gallery shot". Hair, carpet fibers, cat
>dander, ash, etc. each react differently to bright light, and
>the camera likewise reacts differently to them, producing a
>range of effects, or orbs. I got a really nice image of a
>"shooting orb" which was actually a perfectly still hair. The
>illusion of rapid movement and motion blur is rather impressive,
>however.

>These artifacts are commonplace and completely understood. To
>treat them as anything more than just that is kooky.

>To describe them as having feeding tubes, or being under
>intelligent control is just absurd comedy.

>Of course I could be wrong, but I really don't think so.


I know many people who think orbs are ghosts, they are just
ignorant to explainations of them. There are some orb like
photos that seem to indicate some kind of paranormal event. They
are hard to find amongst the dust orbs.

Any of you know of the "Entity case", where there is a photo
taken that is considered the only scientifically validated ghost
photo? The photo is of a reverse arc of light in the room.  I
was wondering if this could have been orb like, but moving. Any
comments on that photo? I re-found it several weeks ago, after
watching the movie that was showing on cable. But I just
relooked and couldn't find the photo again. Wish I knew what
keywords I used to find it the other times. If any of you want
to see the photo, I'll look harder for it, and provide a link.








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
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   Nov > Nov 3

                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 44

From: John Hayes <John.nul>
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 19:10:28 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 05:48:46 -0500
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 44

Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan.nul>
==========================

      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 9, Number 44
November 3, 2004
Editor: Joseph Trainor

E-mail: Masinaigan.nul
Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/


CASSINI FLYBY GRABS FIRST
CLOSE-UP PHOTOS OF TITAN

      The robot spacecraft Cassini had a close encounter
with Saturn's giant moon, Titan, last week and obtained
the first close-up photos of that strange icy world.
      On Tuesday, October 26, 2004, "the spacecraft was to
turn its cameras and other instruments toward the cloud-
shrouded moon...The maneuver was expected to bring Cassini
the closest to Titan since the spacecraft went into orbit
around Saturn on June 30," 2004.
      "The orbiter is carrying 12 scientific instruments,
including spectrometers, infrared cameras and radar
designed to pierce the moon's dense atmosphere and 'reveal
a whole new world,' said Charles Elachi, director of the
Jet Propulsion Laboratory" in Pasadena, California.
      "Titan is bigger than the planet Mercury.  It has an
atmosphere that is one-and-a-half times as dense as
Earth's and contains organic--meaning carbon-based
compounds."
      "'Titan is one of the most fascinating places in the
whole solar system,' says astronomer Antonin Bouchez of
Hawaii's W.M. Keck Observatory, who is not a Cassini team
member.  'It is a completely alien place, but it may be
the most Earth-like place we know, with beaches, lakes and
oceans.  That's what makes it interesting.'"
      "On Tuesday, the $3.27-billion international space
probe passed within 730 miles (1,168 kilometers), the
second largest moon in the solar system.  Jupiter's ice
moon, Ganymede, is the biggest."
      "At a Wednesday," October 27, 2004, "briefing at
NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif.,
scientists unveiled the first high-resolution images from
the Cassini-Huygens spacecraft's flyby of Titan.  The
images show a surface of bright and dark regions streaked
by unknown materials in some locales, and a lower
atmosphere with a few clouds."
      "'With the sun at our backs, we had an ideal view
down to the surface,' said mission imaging team chief
Carolyn Porco of the Space Science Institute in Boulder,
Colorado.  'We are still mystified and not quite sure what
we are looking at.'"
      "One surprise for scientists was that sensors
suggested Titan's dark and light regions are made of the
same stuff, a mixture of ice and naturally occurring tar,
despite their differences in brightness.  The find may
indicate that a coating covers Titan's surface, much like
the dust that coats Mars and obscures the chemistry in the
bedrock below."
      "Streaks seen in the surface images resemble features
on both Mars and Venus, said astronomer Antonin Bouchez of
Hawaii's W.M. Keck Observatory."
      NASA released more Cassini images on Thursday,
October 28, 2004.
      "The surface of Titan, Saturn's largest moon, looks
like a cracked eggshell, a windblown landscape dotted with
propane lakes, according to images that NASA released
Thursday."
      "'Titan is an extremely dynamic and active place,'
says mission scientist Jonathan Lunine of the University
of Arizona in Tucson."
      "Radar images of a 1,242-mile (1,987-kilometer) strip
of Titan, about 1 percent of the moon's surface, were
released at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena,
Calif.  They suggest that the surveyed strip has about a
dozen lake, including one the size of Lake Tahoe," on the
border of the USA's states of California and Nevada.
      "The new images indicate that winds in the atmosphere
reshape the surface, likely streaking frozen tars and oils
across the terrain.  Ridges 62 miles (104 kilometers)
long, but no taller than 165 feet (50 meters) suggest that
the cracks seen from space are from an ice 'eggshell'
covering the moon."
      "NASA scientists also report that volcanic eruptions
of ammonia and ice water reshape Titan's frigid surface."
(Editor's Note:  The surface temperature on Titan is minus
290 degrees on the Fahrenheit scale.)
      "'Titan is a place that is alive, in a geologic
sense,' says JPL chief Charles Elachi, who also heads the
Cassini radar team.  The mission, managed cooperatively by
NASA, the European Space Agency (ESA) and the Italian
Space Agency (ASI) is scheduled to explore Saturn and its
moons for at least four years, including 44 flybys of
Titan."
      "On Christmas Eve," December 24, 2004, "the
spacecraft will release the ESA's Huygens probe, which
will parachute onto Titan in mid-January," 2005.
      "Titan's temperature varies somewhat from region to
region, suggesting that it's blanketed with carbon-based
compounds.  'The place is just covered in the stuff,' says
mission scientist Ralph Lorenz of the University of
Arizona."  (See USA Today for October 26, 2004, "Saturn's
moon Titan comes into focus today," page 8D; for October
27, 2004, "Spacecraft zooms in on Saturn's big moon," page
10A; for October 28, 2004, "Cassini probe's first flyby of
Titan reveals some surprises," page 4D; and for October
29, 2004, "Titan's surface like an icy eggshell, images
show," page 4D.)


UFOs SIGHTED BY MANY IN
WESTERN PENNSYLVANIA

      On Saturday, October 23, 2004, at 12:34 a.m.,
eyewitness Carol reported, "My son woke me about 12:30
a.m. and said he observed a UFO across the street from our
house" in Belle Vernon, Pa. (population 1,211), located on
the east bank of the Monongahela River about 20 miles (32
kilometers) south of Pittsburgh.
      Carol's son said the UFO "was hovering over a wooded
area," she reported, "When I went to investigate his
sighting, I first thought it to be the moon.  It seemed
like a cluster of smaller lights, making it seem to be
somewhat circular in shape.  I'm still trying to believe
it is the moon."
      "At 1 a.m.," on Sunday, October 24, 2004, "I decided
to look back in the sky to see if it had moved around in a
period of time.  I figured, if it was the moon, I should
be able to tell better as time would pass.  At 1:05 a.m.,
just five minutes of me last checking on the object, it
was gone.  I stepped outside to see if it may have drifted
elsewhere, and the object was gone."
      Other UFO sightings were reported in the Pittsburgh
area.
      "At about 11:15 p.m. on Sunday night, October 24,
2004, residents throughout the Greater Pittsburgh area
reported a brilliant blue light moving across the sky,
then turned dark only to highlight for several minutes."
      "Witnesses concerned about the object illuminating
the sky reported their sightings to various agencies in
Pittsburgh.  It appears that the source of the object was
a brilliant meteor associated with the annual Orionid
meteor shower."
      Pennsylvania ufologist Stan Gordon reported, "One
witness I interviewed from Beaver County, located north of
Pittsburgh, said her bedroom lit up in blue light for four
to five seconds.  The light seemed slowly to brighten,
then faded away.  No sound was reported."
      "I contacted Peter Davenport of the National UFO
Reporting Center" near Seattle, Washington state, USA,
"who confirmed that he received numerous reports of the
event from several Northeastern states."  (Many thanks to
Jim Hickman, executive director of Skywatch International,
for the Belle Vernon report; and to Stan Gordon for the
Pittsburgh and Beaver County reports.)


LUMINOUS UFO SEEN BY A
COUPLE IN IRONTON, OHIO

      On Thursday, October 14, 2004, Josh Griffith and his
wife were driving in their truck in Ironton, Ohio
(population 11,211) when they spotted something unusual in
the southeastern sky.
      "I was in my truck talking to my wife, when she
suddenly said, 'What is that!?'  When I looked, I saw
something very bright like a star but much brighter, much
larger, moving over the horizon at an extreme rate of
speed.  When the object was about halfway across the sky,
it went completely black.  Then, at an instant (later),
the object was pulsating in a very dark and deep red--the
whole craft, not part of a light or a plane.  At first a
brilliant light, then pulsating reddish.  The altitude was
between 5,000 and 10,000 feet (1,500 to 3,000 meters).
The speed was unlike anything I have ever seen."
      Ironton is on Ohio Route 141, on the north bank of
the Ohio River about 20 miles (32 kilometers) northwest of
Huntington, West Virginia.  (Email Form Report)
(Editor's Note:  Ironton is just downriver from Point
Pleasant, West Virginia, the home of the entity known as
Mothman.)


WEST VIRGINIA POLICE
WATCH UFO OVER CAPITOL

      A police officer in Charleston, West Virginia
(population 53,421) claims to have witnessed, along with
other officers, a UFO hovering over the state Capitol
during late September 2004.
      "My name is William H. Fink.  I am a Sergeant with
the West Virginia Division of Protective Services, better
known as the Capitol Police for the state capital of West
Virginia.  I am a shift commander for the evening shift
which is how I encountered the following UFO."
      "It was Monday, September 20 (2004).  At about 7:30
p.m., another officer and I were walking from one building
to another when we both saw what looked like fireballs in
the sky.  At first sighting, there were two of them, and
they were not moving.  I watched them for a few seconds,
then ran back into the building to retrieve my binocular
camera.  I was able to take 12 photos of the UFO."
      "At one time, there were four of them in the sky, but
I could only get two photographed at a time.  I called the
rest of my shift outside and these things were observed by
four trained, experienced police officers, a security
guard supervisor, two carpet installers and a couple
walking the grounds."
      "We observed these things until 7:40 p.m.--a full ten
minutes.  The sun was almost below the mountains, and it
cast an orange glow on the objects as well as two
airliners that flew over at the same time.  It was clear
with noticeable ground winds and no sound.  The objects
began to move southwest until they faded out in the
glowing sun."
      "At times, one would circle the others as they
appeared to race each other--only to fade out at either
behind the building or in the setting sun.  As the
airliner flew over, one object seemed to race with it and
overtake it before fading."
      "I don't know if these were all the same object going
back and forth or if there was a whole group of them.  I
could not judge height, but it was considerably lower than
the airliners. (The airliners likely took off from Chuck
Yeager Airport in Charleston--W.M.F.)  Yeager refused to
talk to me, and I finally got the FAA (Federal Aviation
Administration--J.T.).  The man I spoke to at the FAA was
nice but not helpful."
      "In the October 6 (2004) edition of UFO Roundup,
there is a case very similar to mine.  It is entitled,
'Silver sphere sighted in Englewood, Colorado.'"  (Email
Report)


THREE UFOs SIGHTED IN
NORTHERN ARGENTINA

      "Several witnesses have added their names to the
statements made by councilman Rodrigo Garcia and district
administrative secretary Walter Nunez, who along with
hundreds of persons attending the start of the Popular
Loyalty Day celebrations" on Sunday, October 24, 2004,
"were treated to the sight of a luminous UFO fallen to the
ground near the city" of Rosario de la Frontera in
northern Argentina.
      "The phenomenon was seen from Rosario de la Frontera,
a city located 30 kilometers (18 miles)" south of Salta,
the provincial capital.  "It occurred at 7:55 p.m. and
caused a commotion."
      "'It was incredible, truly something out of the
ordinary,' explained a police officer, who was on duty in
the area and requested anonymity."
      "The eyewitnesses, who included Adrian Quiroga, a
correspondent for (the Argentinian newspaper) El Tribuno,
agreed that they first saw three large columns of smoke,
similar to the wake of jet aircraft, and which gave the
impression of a swift north-to-south movement."
      "However, they suddenly changed their course by 90
degrees and plummeted vertically, with light resembling
flames reported.  The objects then seemed to disappear."
      "Witnesses speculated that a meteorite could have
been involved, or else an alien spacecraft or space junk.
They agreed that 'if something fell, it was very near
Rosario de la Frontera,' although the majority reported no
likelihood of an impact on Earth since no sound was
heard."
      "Police units searched the area after the 'crash' to
no effect."
      "Sheriff Mario Paz, chief of Regional Unit 3, stated
that 'no area officer reported anything falling from the
sky.  Officially, we can say nothing happened.'"
      "'They resembled three incandescent balls that fell,
leaving behind a great quantity of smoke.  I've never seen
anything like it,' said Walter Nunez."
      "Victor Brazanovich, another witness, said that
'whatever it was, it put forth a large amount of white
smoke and, at the time it appeared, a yellowish color like
fire as it fell quickly.'"
      "Miguel Angel Fucho, who also observed the strange
event, stated, 'I was amazed to see contrails similar to
those of a jet aircraft, but there was no continuity to
their trajectory, because the object finally fell to
Earth.'"
      Rosario de la Frontera is located in southern Salta
province, about 500 kilometers (300 miles) northwest of
Buenos Aires, the capital of Argentina.  (See El Tribuno
for October 25, 2004.  Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales y
Guillermo Gimenez de Planeta UFO para esto articulo de
diario.)


FOSSILIZED HOBBIT FOUND
ON INDONESIAN ISLAND

      "Fans of The Lord of the Rings may be interested to
know that a remote Indonesian island has yielded the
remains of a pint-sized people--a surprising new human
species--that paleontologists say lived just 18,000 years
ago."
      "In fact, scientists have nicknamed the new creature
'Hobbit' after the diminutive folks in the famed J.R.R.
Tolkien trilogy.  Fiction aside, the discovery reported
today by an Australian paleonology team is a big deal,
challenging decades of human origins research."
      "Buried amid scattered stone tools and the bones of
pygmy elephants at Liang Bua cave on the eastern
Indonesian island of Flores were the skeletal remains of a
female belonging to the species that the discoverers have
formally named Homo floresiensis."
      Flores Island lies 500 kilometers (300 miles) east of
Jakarta, the capital of Indonesia.
      "In today's Nature journal, the team, led by Peter
Brown of Australia's University of New England, describes
the being as a human relative, or hominid, that stood less
than 40 inches (100 centimeters or 1 meter) tall.  Except
for a snout, she had a human face and a brain one-third
the size of ours.  She was older than 30, judging from her
worn teeth and bone structure.  Though like modern humans
in some respect, she also resembled ancient species."
      "'Probably this is one of the most important
discoveries in hominid paleontological history,' says
University of Pittsburgh paleontologist Jeffrey Schwartz.
'This is just about the wildest thing anyone could have
discovered."
      "Brown's team believes that Hobbit is an example of
island dwarfism, the widely observed tendency of isolated
species to evolve toward smaller sizes because they are
separated from mainland predators.  The scientists suggest
that the species started as an offshoot of Homo erectus, a
human ancestor dating to 1.8 million years ago, that
reached Flores by boat and eventually got smaller hunting
pygmy elephants and dodging Komodo dragons."
      "These beings must have been reasonably smart 'as
they were manufacturing sophisticated stone tools, hunting
pygmy elephants and crossing at least two water barriers
to reach Flores,' says study co-author Richard Roberts of
the University of Wollongong.  'The latter two activities
must surely have been group activities, which implies
communicative skills and use of language...all with a
brain the size of a grapefruit.'"
      "Indeed, the brain size of Homo floresiensis is most
like those of our ancestors who lived more than 3 million
years ago.  The ratio of brain size to body mass resembles
that of present-day" chimpanzees.
      "'The idea of linear progress is brain size
throughout human evolution has been the one steadily held
idea in the field for the last few decades,' says Rick
Potts, head of the Human Origins Program at the
Smithsonian Institution.  'This is a big shot at that
idea.'"
      "Since submitting the Nature paper, the discovery
team has uncovered parts of five to seven other
individuals of the same stature at the cave, Brown says."
(See USA Today for October 28, 2004, "Hobbit-size skull
holds surprises," page 1D.)
(Editor's Comment:  If there are Hobbits on Flores, does
that mean Saruman's tower is at the bottom of the Savu
Sea?)


SPY BLIMP SIGHTED AGAIN
IN NEW ENGLAND STATES

      The mysterious white spy blimp, seen recently over
the Massachusetts-Rhode Island stateline area, reappeared
during daylight hours on Saturday, October 23, and Sunday,
October 24, 2004.
      UFO Roundup correspondent Mary Lou Jones-Drown
reported, "I received dozens of reports the day after the
sightings.  Phyllis (a local teacher-J.T.) called and said
it was all her (high school) students were talking about."
      The blimp, described as "dull white with no markings
except a vertical red stripe on the tail (empennage--
J.T.)," was spotted during the early afternoon of
Saturday, October 23, 2004, over the Philipsdale and
Rumford sections of East Providence, R.I. (population
48,688), over the Agawam Hunt Club and Central Pond in
East Providence, and over a golf course just east of Route
114 near Six Corners in Rumford.
      The blimp was then seen in Rehoboth, Mass., 7 miles
(11 kilometers) east of Rumford, on Sunday, October 24,
2004.
      "One witness saw the white blimp hovering over the
millrace on Perryville Road (in Rehoboth), right at
treetop level.  When she went to get some binoculars, the
blimp turned northwest and headed for North Seekonk," Mary
Lou reported, "I have no idea what they were looking for
out there.  That's a heavily-wooded area, only a few
farms."
(Editor's Note:  The old mill on Perryville Road is
notorious for its ghost sightings.)
      "A family on Danforth Road saw the blimp pass over
their backyard at an altitude of 100 feet (30 meters).
The engine sound was very faint."
      Another sighting was over North Walker Street in
Taunton, Mass., 5 miles (8 kilometers) east of Rehoboth.
      The blimp was also sighted over the Three Mile River
in North Dighton and three miles (5 kilometers) to the
south, in Segregansett, Mass.
      On Monday, October 25, 2004, Mary Lou reported,
"Betty, a 58-year-old eyewitness, went outside to take her
wash off the line.  She lives on Hortonville Road in
Swansea, Mass. (just south of Rehoboth--J.T.)  She saw the
blimp just above the tops of the pine trees east of her
farmhouse.  It was moving very slowly, and there was
scarcely any engine noise."
      That afternoon, a woman and her brother, both in
their 80s, were raking leaves and cleaning up the yard of
their farmhouse on Hornbine Road in South Rehoboth.  "They
saw the white blimp coming up from the southeast.  When it
got to Hornbine Road, it turned away from them and began
moving southwest, towards Barrington, R.I.   The man, a
World War II veteran, said he remembered seeing Navy
blimps over Mount Hope Bay 60 years ago.  He thought the
white blimp was protecting the Brayton Point electrical
generating station" in Fall River, Mass. "from terrorist
attack.  The kids in Phyllis's class thought it had
something to do with the (Boston) Red Sox," which won the
2004 World Series a few days afterward.
      No sooner had the spy blimp left the area than
Rehoboth residents again began seeing and hearing black
helicopters.
      "We had a lot of sightings on Friday," October 30,
2004, Mary Lou reported.  "I heard loud helicopter engine
noise early that morning.  It sounded very close to the
house.  But when my husband and I went outside, we
couldn't see anything.  People living up behind the Palmer
River School, just north of Route 44, heard and saw the
helicopters.  There were two of them, both pitch black and
what they described as 'military.'  They were flying from
east to west over the woods, just over the treetops, 'very
low and slow' as if they were looking for something.
We've also heard a lot of high-flying jets in the
evening."
      Rehoboth was the site of black helicopter flaps
during the summer months of 2002 and 2003.  (Many thanks
to Mary Lou Jones-Drown for these news reports.)


FLASHING UFO SIGHTED IN
NOVA SCOTIA, CANADA

      On Wednesday, October 13, 2004, at 10 p.m., Dean
Murphy looked out the window of his home in Great Village,
Nova Scotia, Canada.  "It was a clear night," Dean
reported, "The object was moving west.  It was two
flashing lights in the sky, one on top of the other.  They
were orange lights.  One was slightly ahead of the other.
My guess is that the objects were 6 metres (20 feet) tall
and 10 metres (33 feet) wide.  I kept both of them in view
until they were out of sight."
      Great Village (population 620) is on Route 2, on the
north shore of Cobequid Bay, about 40 miles (64
kilometers) north of Dartmouth and Halifax, N.S.  (Email
Form Report)



      Well, that's it for this week.  Join us in seven days
for more UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the
planet Earth...and occasionally, Saturn...brought to you
by "the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup."  See you then!

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2004 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved.  Readers may post news items from UFO
Roundup on their Web sites or in news groups provided that
they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list
the date of issue in which the item first appeared.

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan.nul>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://www.ufoinfo.com/submit/sightings.shtml

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster.nul>

UFOINFO: http://www.ufoinfo.com

Official Archives for UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian
UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine
plus archives of Humanoid Sighting Reports (Albert
Rosales), Filer's Files, Oz Files, UFO News UK.
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   Nov > Nov 3

                          Re: Limboids - Dickenson

From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul>
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 19:12:43 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 05:49:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Limboids - Dickenson


>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 22:38:12 -0500
>Subject: Re: Limboids

>And without invoking quantum mechanics/theory, what about
>Teilhard de Chardin or Lecomte du Nouy (even Spengler) where the
>biology of the universe is intermingled with the mystical (dare
>I say spiritual), and a kind of theology explains life in ways
>that can account for things seen in the sky or paranormally?

Hi,

Any chance of clarifying "life" definitions?

While speculating on (even forecasting) energy-based beings
who're maybe more intelligent and individual than us, the type
of "life" with which _all_ matter might be said to be imbued is
surely a different thing?

I.e. a whole bunch of modern physics theorists, inc. Lee Smolin,
entertain ideas that our Universe may be "evolving" and that a
universal `force' or `influence' means that all matter might be
said to be interacting in this evolution. (Try Smolin's quote -
 "shared mysticism of the mathematical scientist is an
invention" in Google).

A third life-type, that which we humans normally limit our
discussions to, of material organic beings like ourselves, is a
more mobile, individual (and perhaps destructive) `life' than
#2, but it might well be a helpless plaything or even "food" to
type #1 (see "friend-foe.txt" Google).

De Chardin or du Nouy make me a bit restless. Even so, hope
Schopenhauer would've agreed that "science" is merely asking
questions in a form that might bring truthful answers. I.e _not_
the obsessive stamp-collecting and suppression of inquiry that
passes for today's establishment science - "badsci" in Google.


Cheers

Ray D

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Perceptions" http://www.perceptions.couk.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







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                             Minority UFO Report

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 05:59:02 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 05:59:02 -0500
Subject: Minority UFO Report




Source: Seattle Weekly - Washington

http://www.seattleweekly.com/features/0444/041103_news_ufo.php

11-03-04


Minority UFO Report

If something happens, the feds can't say Ricky Hubbard didn't
warn them.

by Rick Anderson


Ricky Hubbard comes rushing up the stairs to the bar with a TV
set cradled in his arms. He pauses at the top to catch his
breath. "You've got to see this, man!" he says, waving a hand
and ordering a drink. He goes to a table in the corner near an
electrical outlet. "The FBI, Homeland Security, nobody knows
what this is."

He puts the TV/VCR combo on the table and plugs it in. The small
screen flickers, then blue sky and fluffy jet trails appear.
Charlie Bailey, a bartender at the second-floor bar, Lowell's at
Pike Place Market, sits down. "He showed it to me earlier," she
says. "It is weird."

OK, watch this, says Hubbard, 52, a Seattle cab driver and
budding videographer. The day of the video is Aug. 8, Seafair's
hydroplane Sunday. There's a break in the boat races on Lake
Washington as the Blue Angels perform. The airspace over Seattle
is restricted. The sky is supposedly empty except for the famous
Navy aerobatic team.

"There, did you see it?" Hubbard says, excitedly tapping the
screen.

I lean forward, squint, and shake my head. "It happens fast,"
says Bailey.

Hubbard runs the videotape again. He shot it from a home he was
visiting that day atop Queen Anne Hill. The segment is about a
minute long. Hubbard wanted to catch the Angels in flight and
had missed the team's first two passes over the hill. So he held
the camera on the sky, constantly recording the dissipating jet
trails, waiting for the Navy jets to fly into his viewfinder.

"There!" Hubbard says. "See it that time?"

He doesn't tell me what to look for. But I think I see a white
dot streak across the screen. The Angels, in a wedge formation,
follow shortly.

"Yes, a white dot. You saw it? Oh man, thanks. I don't feel so
nutty now," says Hubbard, who is African American. "Black people
aren't supposed to see this freaky space shit. It's always
hillbillies."

Hubbard puts the tape on slow motion, forward and reverse. The
white dot of possible mass destruction flitters through the jet
trails, splits in two, re-fuses, then flies out of the picture.

"That was no plane. It was no bird, no flaw on the tape. It was
something out there chasing or flying along with the Blue
Angels, man!" says Hubbard. He didn't notice the blip until
viewing the tape in September and immediately decided to call
the government.

"I told the [directory assistance] operator I need to talk to
the Air Force because I got this thing on film chasing the
Angels, and he starts laughing and says, 'No way, dude. They'll
think you're crazy and lock you up!'"

But Hubbard reached an Air Force official who thought it was
important enough to refer Hubbard to the Navy, home of the
Angels. "I got the department in charge of the Blue Angels,"
Hubbard says. "And the guy tells me, 'If there was something up
there, we would have seen it.'"

Hubbard wasn't going away that easy. "I said, man, forget this!
I called the FBI and said, 'You guys need to see this.'" Come on
down, they said. Hubbard went to the Federal Building on Second
Avenue. He strolled toward security screeners with his TV set in
a bag on wheels. "They see a brother in braids come in with a
big-ass suitcase that looks like a bomb," says Hubbard, "and
everybody wants to hit the floor."

To boot, he tells screeners he's got pictures of a UFO. He
clears security nonetheless, only to learn the FBI is located in
its own building a few blocks away. In federal headquarters
already, he decided to stop at the offices of the Homeland
Security Department.

"They watched the thing go back and forth, like 50 times. 'Just
take it to the FBI,' they said. They didn't want to deal with
it," Hubbard recalls.

Finally, at FBI offices, an agent watched the white dot go back
and forth.

Maybe it's something, maybe not, said the agent. "I don't know
what to tell you," Hubbard remembers her saying. She took his
number and said they'd call.

A Seattle FBI spokesperson last week confirmed Hubbard brought
in the film. "We watched it," he says. "It was inconclusive."

Still, Hubbard thinks he did the right thing. It was an eerie
white blip in the edgy days of orange alerts. "I figured the
government should know," he says, dragging a finger across the
screen behind the dot. "Except, now I'm probably in their
files."

randerson.nul








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                   SciScoop Reader Describes UFO Encounter

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 06:04:10 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 06:04:10 -0500
Subject: SciScoop Reader Describes UFO Encounter




Source: SciScoop.Com - Exploring Tomorrow

http://www.sciscoop.com/story/2004/11/1/35128/6662

Posted on Tue Nov 2nd, 2004 at 01:02:55 PM PST

Section Ask SciScoop

SciScoop Reader Describes UFO Encounter


Over the weekend SciScoop received the following lightly-edited
and very interesting email:

Hello, my name is Paul Reason <drnw42150.nul> and I
live in Liverpool, England. I would like someone to give myself
and my wife Diane a logical explaination for what we have just
experienced early hours Sunday 17th October 2004 about 1 AM.

We were driving home from friends in Cheshire a rural of England
[near Tatton Hall], no lights on the road exept our car lights,
when suddenly from the left of our car a vapour appeared. I
instantly thought we were entering some kind of mist but the
vapour stayed in front of the car travelling equal speed,then
suddenly it started to spin. I naturally thought some kind of
vortex was forming and told my wife to slow the car down. The
spinning continued and I noticed some blue flashes in it, the
rest was just white but was not light.

The next we knew it went on top of the car and lit the front
bonnet up with light reflecting on the whole of windscreen some
sort of cabbage shape blueish ether effect. We both started to
panic as we entered a village which was lit up quite well. We
turned right, back into the dark countryside when it re-appeared
next to the car on the left hand side. It went up into the air
above the car so I opened my window and could see underneath
what appeared to be two rings, one large wreath looking one
[with some sort of a blue energy in it], and inside smaller
plasma [but not illumunous] like teardrop shapes chained
together spinning and individually wobbling. We did several
right turns over a streach of about 7 miles but it stayed right
in front of the car till we reaches the motorway. It eventually
ascended upwards into the clouds and i could see it vapourize
into a sheet.

My wife and I are very shaken by the incident. This is genuine
and was a very disturbing experience for us both. We would
appreciate it if there was a scientific explanation. I have also
reported the incident to NASA and other organisations.

Look forward to hearing from you.


 - Paul







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   Nov > Nov 3

                           Of Dolan Hynek & Oberg

From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen.nul>
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 05:57:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 06:12:09 -0500
Subject: Of Dolan Hynek & Oberg


Hello again to all UFO UpDates List-members & lurkers,

I've been vacationing this last year, stretching out and
enjoying retirement with some trips, etc. so I haven't posted or
been following the List much during that time. However, I've
returned with a pretty clear head and I've got, what I believe
are, a couple of fine essays to announce.

Recently, I was surfing the Web and came across Rich Dolan's
nicely constructed UFO website. There I came across an article
he had written that espoused the view that J. Allen Hynek may
have been a mole for the CIA. People have written about this
before and I had made one or two posts about why I felt it
wasn't true.

Being extremely interested in Dr. Hynek, I began to do some
research of my own, delving into back-issues of the old NICAP
Investigator. At my web site are a couple of new posts I'm in
the process of developing, which give additional information
further supporting my contention he was not a mole for anyone.
I'll be posting them here as well.

The first page basically deals with a bit of history and adds
some new facts into the mix - new for me, anyway. At the end of
the essay (or from the title), one can click to a "piece by
piece" dissection of Rich Dolan's article on same and find
answers to many of the points he raised within it.

Those interested can find this article at:

http://www.cohenufo.org/Hynek/hynk_mole2_cohn.htm

---

Oh yes, Errol just brought it to my attention that Jim Oberg had
posted a rebuttal, at Yahoo, criticizing my analysis at my site
regarding Gordon Cooper. Some of his criticisms were fair, but
others totally unfounded.

I've been working at composing an answer to all the points he
made in his rebuttal. My point by point response is geared
specifically to the items he mentions so, hopefully, it won't be
a super-long read. I'll post the URL when it's finished.

Thanks to those who took the time to read this.


Respectfully,

Jerry Cohen








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                      UFO Watchtower Points Eyes To Sky

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 06:55:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 06:55:03 -0500
Subject: UFO Watchtower Points Eyes To Sky




Source: NCBuy.Com

http://www.ncbuy.com/news/2004-11-02/1010977.html

11-02-04


UFO Watchtower Points Eyes To Sky

HOOPER, Colo. (Wireless Flash) -- The star-like objects seen
from a watchtower in Hooper, Colorado, may not be of this world.

The UFO Watchtower -- which owner Judy Messoline claims is "the
only one of its kind in the world" -- is a half dome with a 10-
foot lookout platform positioned to look for UFOs.

Messoline claims there have been 31 sightings of
extraterrestrial spacecraft from the tower since it was built in
2000 -- including one time when a large aircraft hovered over
the area, mysteriously causing all the yard lights in the area
to blow out.

Although Messoline can't explain why her small town is a hotbed
for UFO activity, it's not hurting her business, since thousands
of people visit the watch tower during the summer.

So far, she hasn't come in contact with any "little green men,"
but she's still holding out hope.

In Messoline's words, "I want one to land so I can get a really
good look."


[UFO UpDates thanks Stuart Miller for the lead]







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                      Re: Of Dolan Hynek & Oberg - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 13:39:34 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 09:55:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Of Dolan Hynek & Oberg - Hall


>From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 05:57:59 -0500
>Subject: Of Dolan Hynek & Oberg

<snip>

>Recently, I was surfing the Web and came across Rich Dolan's
>nicely constructed UFO website. There I came across an article
>he had written that espoused the view that J. Allen Hynek may
>have been a mole for the CIA. People have written about this
>before and I had made one or two posts about why I felt it
>wasn't true.

>Being extremely interested in Dr. Hynek, I began to do some
>research of my own, delving into back-issues of the old NICAP
>Investigator. At my web site are a couple of new posts I'm in
>the process of developing, which give additional information
>further supporting my contention he was not a mole for anyone.
>I'll be posting them here as well.

>The first page basically deals with a bit of history and adds
>some new facts into the mix - new for me, anyway. At the end of
>the essay (or from the title), one can click to a "piece by
>piece" dissection of Rich Dolan's article on same and find
>answers to many of the points he raised within it.

>Those interested can find this article at:

>http://www.cohenufo.org/Hynek/hynk_mole2_cohn.htm

<snip>

Jerry,

Rich Dolan, in his book, has Bob Low of the Colorado UFO Project
being a CIA spook and generally finds spooks under almost every
bed. I pointed out some of his paranoid reasoning in a review of
his book for the International UFO Reporter (CUFOS).

Sorry, I don't have the reference right at hand. It was a year
or two ago.


 - Dick Hall







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                           Re: Limboids - Reynolds

From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 08:41:47 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 10:00:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Limboids - Reynolds


>From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 19:12:43 +0000
>Subject: Re: Limboids

>>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 22:38:12 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Limboids

>>And without invoking quantum mechanics/theory, what about
>>Teilhard de Chardin or Lecomte du Nouy (even Spengler) where the
>>biology of the universe is intermingled with the mystical (dare
>>I say spiritual), and a kind of theology explains life in ways
>>that can account for things seen in the sky or paranormally?

>Any chance of clarifying "life" definitions?
>
>While speculating on (even forecasting) energy-based beings
>who're maybe more intelligent and individual than us, the type
>of "life" with which _all_ matter might be said to be imbued is
>surely a different thing?

>I.e. a whole bunch of modern physics theorists, inc. Lee Smolin,
>entertain ideas that our Universe may be "evolving" and that a
>universal `force' or `influence' means that all matter might be
>said to be interacting in this evolution. (Try Smolin's quote -
> "shared mysticism of the mathematical scientist is an
>invention" in Google).

>A third life-type, that which we humans normally limit our
>discussions to, of material organic beings like ourselves, is a
>more mobile, individual (and perhaps destructive) `life' than
>#2, but it might well be a helpless plaything or even "food" to
>type #1 (see "friend-foe.txt" Google).

>De Chardin or du Nouy make me a bit restless. Even so, hope
>Schopenhauer would've agreed that "science" is merely asking
>questions in a form that might bring truthful answers. I.e _not_
>the obsessive stamp-collecting and suppression of inquiry that
>passes for today's establishment science - "badsci" in Google.


Ray,

You dog you, dragging me into a discussion about life... what is
it? That's like asking for the nature of God... and there we
are... at the ultimate, existential question.

I threw in Teilhard and du Nouy because, while they speak of
things spiritual, their "philosophical theology" is tinged with
a biologic patina. (Spengler less so, but it's there
nonetheless.) And I won't get into Teilhard's "Mystical Body of
Christ" just yet.

When I was in college, a secular college (Wayne State
University), I got into debates with two friends who attended
the University of Detroit (a Catholic university).

I once said, in an almost Hinduistic way, that all things have
life; life to the extent of their value. They laughed, and
rightfully so. What a simplistic view. What value? To whom? Et
cetera.

In the case of life, sentient life, I take the view that human
beings (us) form the pinnacle of life - the view espoused by du
Nouy in Human Destiny.

The symphonies of Beethoven, the writings of Shakepeare, the art
of Michelangelo, the Pyramids, the Cathedral at Chartre, who can
compete with these human creations? They out-God God.

But that aside, what about less esthetic life? What is going on
with mischievous quarks? When atomic components act in uncertain
ways, but always so, what is the mechanism that provides the
deviant physical behavior?

Bell's experiment shows atomic particles acting in unison across
the universe (as it were), faster than the speed of light, and
in chaotic patterns, which nonetheless can be duplicated and
measured, to some extent.

Then Fritjof Capra, in The Tao of Physics, takes us back to
Teilhard, secularizing Teilhard's notions somewhat.

Schopenhauer's World as Will seems to posit that elements of
life have a tendency to blindness, irrationality, and evil
...which goes to your #3 being eaten by #1.

For me, sentient, creative life is the thing with which we deal
but I'm thinking that your view is that other life forms or
kinds of life, or the aspects of the "one life force" may be out
to do us in, heartlessly or with malevolent purpose.

And what about those miniscule particles which would appear to
be harmless but may have an intent that isn't? Like microbes or
bacteria or viruses? Or elements even less defined/known?

Du Nouy takes on your evolution view... you've read Human
Destiny I'm guessing. And God becomes the Omega point. But
Teilhard says we make up God - we are particles in the
biological Body of Christ.

And things beneath are as important as things above...things
obvious.

Life forms for me are those I contend with. Those subliminal to
my existence don't intrude in a way that I can deal with, so I
choose to ignore them... until I get the flu.

The "limboid" scenario is fascinating. It makes for a
multiplicity of life-kinds, and isn't that what Quantum theory
proposes with string theory and paralllel universes?

But what can we do about it? We who are destined to procreate or
make art, and die, not knowing who or what killed us.

We need to take this discussion to an open forum, where persons
like you (and others) can straighten me out. I'm obviously
flummoxed.


Rich








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   Nov > Nov 3

                         Re: Orb Study Site - Chace

From: David Chace <davidwchace.nul>
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 07:35:51 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:51:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Orb Study Site - Chace


>From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:39:01 -0500
>Subject: Re: Orb Study Site

<snip>

>I know many people who think orbs are ghosts, they are just
>ignorant to explanations of them. There are some orb like
>photos that seem to indicate some kind of paranormal event.
>They are hard to find amongst the dust orbs.

>Any of you know of the "Entity case", where there is a photo
>taken that is considered the only scientifically validated ghost
>photo? The photo is of a reverse arc of light in the room. I
>was wondering if this could have been orb like, but moving.
>Any comments on that photo?

The major difference in the 'Entity' case is that the balls of
light or orbs or streaks of light or whatever were actually seen
moving about the room by the people present at the time the
photos were being taken. They were not things that were
invisible to the eye that only showed up on film (as some form
of spirit communication, 'thoughtography', invisible energy
beings, Tesla globes, or whatever).

As I recall, the lights seen in the 'Entity' case appeared
somewhat different on film than what the people remembered
seeing with their eyes, but were nevertheless similar enough to
imply that the investigators had successfully captured
unexplained light phenomena on film. I might speculate that
these light phenomena were a form of plasma (ionized gas)
perhaps created by some mechanism unknown to science that could
be described as paranormal and related to hauntings and
poltergeists. There were certainly a lot of other unexplained
phenomena reported in that case.


David W. Chace








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                          Secrecy News -- 11/03/04

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:08:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:53:17 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 11/03/04



SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 97
November 3, 2004


**LIBRARIAN OF CONGRESS VISITS IRAN
**DEFENDING U.S. AIRSPACE (CRS)
**TED TAYLOR, 1925-1994


LIBRARIAN OF CONGRESS VISITS IRAN

Twenty-five years after the seizure of the American Embassy in
Tehran on November 4, 1979, a U.S. government official is back
in Iran this week on an unannounced visit, Secrecy News has
learned.

Dr. James H. Billington, the Librarian of Congress, is leading a
small delegation that is discussing prospects for exchanges with
Iranian national library.

The visit was engineered by the private organization Catalytic
Diplomacy at the request of the Library of Congress.  The
director of Catalytic Diplomacy, Jeremy J. Stone, had previously
(in 1999) organized a scientific exchange agreement between the
non-governmental National Academy of Sciences and the Iranian
Academy of Sciences.

Dr. Billington and his delegation are to return to the United
States late on Friday, November 5, and are expected to have
concluded a formal agreement on library exchange with Iranian
officials.


DEFENDING U.S. AIRSPACE (CRS)

"Protecting U.S. airspace may require improvements in detecting
aircraft and cruise missiles, making quick operational
decisions, and intercepting them," according to a newly updated
report from the Congressional Research Service.

"A number of options exist in each of these areas. A variety of
issues must be weighed including expediency, cost, and
minimizing conflicts with civilian aviation."

CRS policy prohibits direct public access to its reports.

But see "Homeland Security: Defending U.S. Airspace," updated
October 13, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/RS21394.pdf

A related CRS report "examines the strengths and limitations of
deploying unmanned aerial vehicles along the borders."  See
"Homeland Security: Unmanned Aerial Vehicles and Border
Surveillance," June 28, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/RS21698.pdf


TED TAYLOR, 1925-2004

Theodore B. Taylor, who designed the smallest and the largest
fission explosives in the U.S. arsenal and then became a critic
of U.S. nuclear weapons policy, died October 28.

"It troubles me more deeply than I can express that my country
continues to be prepared, under certain conditions, to launch
nuclear weapons that would kill millions of innocent
bystanders," he wrote in 1996.

"To me, this is preparation for mass murder that cannot be
justified under any conditions. It must therefore be considered
as human action that is out-and-out evil. The threat of nuclear
retaliation also is a completely ineffectual deterrent to
nuclear attack by terrorists or leaders of governments that need
not identify themselves or that are physically located in the
midst of populations that have no part in the initial attack or
threat of attack. In short, we humans must find alternatives to
retaliation in kind to acts of massive and indiscriminate
violence."

http://www.wagingpeace.org/articles/1996/07/00_taylor_nuclear-
power.htm

"I had a dream last night, about a new form of nuclear weapon," he
said in 1999, "and I'm not telling anybody what this is, because I'm
really scared of it."

http://www.wildnesswithin.com/dyson.html

Ted Taylor was remembered in this Washington Post obituary:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17358-2004Nov1.html

_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:
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_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood.nul
voice:  (202) 454-4691








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Nov > Nov 3

                     Re: Shielding & Harassment - Smith

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:01:35 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 15:07:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Shielding & Harassment - Smith


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 17:28:40 -0500
>Subject: Re: Shielding & Harassment

>We have trouble with that too, and I think the answer is that
>this is clearly the work of a huge international organization.
>Being an organization, you have a very large number of diverse
>motives. At the top, it's greed for having God-like power over
>the masses.

Directing people to do things for you is a sensible use of
power. Having the ability to levitate objects, simulate sounds,
cause physical manipulation in a person is not sensible. If
these guys aren't asking you to do something for them in
exchange for not harassing you then they are irrational. Even
terrorists have rationality although we may not agree with them.
If they got their hands on the tech you are talking about then
we are obviously doomed.

>At the middle, it's the money and perks and sadistic thrills, if
>the anonymous emails from the alleged middle managers are for
>real. (They seem real to us.)

But money must come from somewhere. It must be limited
and thus there is a law of diminishing returns coming into play
in that after they have ground you into the dirt, what is the
cost benefit ratio of continuing expensive psy ops on you.

>At the bottom, it's of course sadistic thrills, and we also know
>from David Lawson's book, "Terrorist Stalking in America" that
>the lower ranks often stay with it because they are basically
>losers and finally they have something that is easy to do, and
>the camraderie of their fellow perps is terrific.

>** Very importantly, remember the leaders of the lower level
>perps tell dreadful _lies_ about the target. Some of the lower
>ranking people are religious zealots who believe the Lord has
>commissioned them to "straighten sinners out."

Still, low level people cannot be completely controllable given
their nature, thus they must be able to escape with the tech or
methods for use in their own schemes and be catchable by
authorities.

>When you look at it as a huge organization and a very large
>array of diverse motives, it becomes much more understandable.

>If you can't accept the idea of a shadow world government, then
>you would have difficulty understanding the concept of
>international harassment of one in a hundred people.

Yeah, its hard to accept.

>>On the other hand, demonic/ghost/possession/poltergiest like
>>phenomena seem to correspond well with your "control"
>>experiences. Moving will not fix it because I have read that
>>these forces can move too. If I were you I would check out some
>>psychic and see if there is some curse or something. Maybe get
>>the home "blessed" or burn some incense!

>That has been tried. In one case, the priest threw up his hands
>and said he could not complete the exorcism.

>And by the way, I am a Christian. But I'm suspending judgement
>on one possibility which would explain _all_ features of our
>experience, all the advanced technology, and all of the
>incredible co-opting of people to harass us, and all of the
>incredible "glassy-eyed" responses by Joe Public.

>It just may be that this is literally a move by Satan to take
>over the entire world. This would explain the _motive_
>perfectly. I really have a hard time believing that human beings
>could accomplish this myself.

>But since we have no way to prove that, I take the Christian
>stance when it comes to fighting injustices: We activists do the
>best we can with what we have, and we simply leave the outcome
>to God.

>You may be right about the demonic aspect, in other words.

Well, I would not give up on exorcism/blessing/whatever because
whether it is straightly Satanic/demonic or inspired by such,
some help from the other side is in order. I don't know why it
requires a "special order" to get help from the good guys, but
apparently its needed.


>We both got plenty of sleep disruption, and the perps delighted
>in causing us to wake up with a powerful urge to urinate at the
>same time, almost every night. They also influenced us to
>suddenly need to go for something in the kitchen.

>But the most striking example was the day my glassed disappeared
>from my closed shoulder bag while picketing, and when I got
>home, she lost a huge quarter-pound ring of keys off a bare
>table. No other person was in the apartment. She just turned her
>back and they were gone. We felt everywhere, in case we were
>being hypnotized to not see the keys.

>When she and I drove to the optician a couple of days later, I
>looked down and, in the quite warm truck cab, there were my glasses.
>They were _ice_ cold, far colder than the December weather outside.
>Suspecting they had been returned via another dimension, I held
>them up and said to her, "Hyperspace!"

>A few seconds later (and the truck was in motion all this time)
>we heard a loud clunk on the floor of the cab under her knees,
>and there were her missing keys.

>We have stories from other targets that one will get voice to
>skull transmissions or other bodily effects while someone they
>are embracing feels nothing. Still other stories say that the
>other person gets different effects, or, just a trace of
>whatever effect the target is experiencing.

It is depressing that the powers demonstrated are so vast! I
have read reports of object disappearance and reappearance
related to ghosts (or demons if you want) and poltergiests. But
consider the ramifications. If true then the entire supply of
gold in Fort Knox is at risk. Diamonds or even large quantities
of cash money can disappear. Since this is not happening, we can
assume the forces doing it don't need these items implying it is
not humans. To be sure, if humans were involved, then at least a
few perps would want a pay raise using this method.

Also, it seems that these forces know all your thoughts and have
complete control of mental and physical processes. This seems
very much in line with demonic/ghost phenomena but if possible
by humans we again are left with the possibility of ALL secrets
being known by someone with this tech. If so, then launch codes
to nukes, bank account numbers, everything is easily accessable
and if humans are doing it, then they may again just want a pay
raise and do it in their free time. Is this happening? I have
not heard about it. Thus, although these secrets are accessed,
the forces or beings have no use for the data and are satisified
with just harassing people which fits in line with
ghosts/demons.

Nothing seems to tie into aliens who have separate kinds of
motivation from the actions you have described.

>Don't forget a possibility I'm convinced of, that devices which
>can replicate natural paranormal effects probably exist. After
>all, Robert Pavlita in Czechoslovakia after WW II demonstrated
>inert shapes made of various materials capable of being
>"charged" by a psychic and then being able to replicate
>paranormal effects.

Yes, but have they been replicated by non-NWO folk, the
veritable hoard of New-Agers out there. No.


>I can't afford TV myself, so I don't really know what sort of shows
>are on. If someone has suggestions and links to the show sites,
>I'll be glad to suggest to our colleague in Mission Texas, the one
>with the video tape of his small children squirming in pain while the
>meter readings went up, that he try to get them to study them.

Search on the Internet for new cable shows in this paranormal
type of area.

>Paranormal doesn't explain the solid half of the experience
>which is non-stop conventional harassment by people, including
>rumour campaigns and lies which never stop until the target's
>career and marriage are totally destroyed. You can't explain
>this experience by separating the advanced mind/body effects
>from the harassment by people.

I can't understand that either, it seems unlike anything I've
read, namely that demons or ghosts inspire other folk to do
rumor campaigns or put lies in other folks minds. I mean, it
seems like alot of trouble for them, and who knows, maybe this
is a new demonic policy?








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Nov > Nov 3

                HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings 11-03-04

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO Research <hbccufo.nul>
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 10:46:33 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 15:11:40 -0500
Subject: HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings 11-03-04


HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings

Release Date: Novemeber 3, 2004 , 2004

HBCC UFO Research Note: Well finally the John Tosti story is
darn near completely and ready to be posted. Still a few more
things to add to this story, but it should be complete really
quick. The reason why the delay in getting this story out is
that more has come in on this case which I wanted to add. So
please do stay tuned for a full report with links off of my site
to some footage, stills, etc. This is a very large report !


Houston, B.C. Four Seasons Park Light Follows Snow Mobiles

Date: December 1994
Time: 10:00 p.m.

Number of witnesses: 5
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Circular

Full Description of event/sighting: When I was 14, some friends
and I were snow mobiling around 4 seasons park in Houston B.C..
There were five of us and two snowmobiles. We had experienced
some strange events in that area before, but this one was the
freakiest and the one I remember the most. There were three of
us on one snowmobile, and two on the other. The larger of the
snowmobiles died on us in the middle of the ball field. The
other snowmobile was small and could not carry everyone, so one
of us, who was on the broken sled got on the other and got a
ride back to the house we were staying at on Jewel Road. The two
remaining, (myself and friend) decided that we would leave the
sled and start walking. We walked for what we felt was only a
couple of steps in the deep snow and then when we looked back
the sled was far away, like 100 meters.

We were both really confused at the moment and then we saw our
friend coming for us on the snowmobile, after she had dropped
off the other two. We immediately began running towards the
snowmobile. When we got to it we hopped on and started heading
back to the house. We were being followed by what we thought was
another sled and we were already freaked out by the walking
distance, so we were yelling at our driver to go faster. The
"sled" behind us kept right up and changed in color and size
very quickly. It started out as a regular white light which
resembled the headlight of a snowmobile, but as we went faster,
it grew larger and also changed to a deep red color. As soon as
we got out of the trees and closer to the houses it just
disappeared. We were all quite shaken up and all three of us saw
the same thing and could not explain it.

Additional Information:

Hi Brian,

I will try to answer your questions the best I can. The incident
happened on a clear night in December. I know that it was cold.
Not sure whether the moon was full or not. The light was south
west to us, we were heading north, it was behind us. It was
ground level, or just above, because we thought it was another
snow mobile at first. It started as a whitish light, like the
color of a headlight, it then it turned red and then it
disappeared. At first we though that it was another sled, and
that it had just turned around, however the trail was not wide
enough for it to turn around as quickly as the light changed
color. I can't remember any sound, but my friend who was with me
said that it was a screeching type sound. I am unsure of
texture, it was only a light and as for speed. It kept up with
the snowmobile and we were going quite fast, however I am unsure
of what the exact speed. Hope this answers your questions.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

--------------------

Vernon, B.C. Orbs Forming A Triangle

Date: October 3, 2004
Time: Between 4:00 and 5:00 p.m.

Hi Brian

I was watching the western sky, which had huge clouds on the
horizon drifting in a northern direction. The sun was behind
these clouds and the light was reflecting over the tops making
the clouds greyer on the bottom.

Underneath the biggest cloud were several small clouds about the
size and shape of a golf ball at arms length. I noticed one
cloud in particular as it was moving in the opposite direction
to the flow. It was a green-blue luminous bubble encircling the
cloud and inside were three dark orbs forming a triangle with
one at the top and two on the bottom. It immersed itself in
the cloud following behind which was large, flat, and smooth
compared to the fluffy clouds around. The bigger cloud
disintegrated faster than its local clouds.

Take care

Thank you to the witness for the report.

--------------------

Tokyo, Japan Four Discs - A Daylight Sighting

Date: October 19, 2004 ?
Time: 2:00 p.m.

Message: Hello, I was in Tokyo a couple weeks ago and in the
middle of the day saw these four discs that countless other
people saw. I am back home in NYC now and trying to google info
or articles about the possible sighting but I am not very good
at searching or can't find the newspapers or sites. Can you
please lead me to some websites that might have reported this
incident so I can read more about it. I think the date was Oct.
19 or the day before or after. Thanks.

Additional Information:

Hi there, here is the info you requested. Thanks for trying to
help out! Best.

Q. - Could you be kind enough to tell me what the weather
conditions were at the time of sighting. Was it sunny? Overcast?
Raining?

A. - Very bright and sunny but very high up there were clouds.
Not puffy clouds but thin stretched over a long distance-type
clouds. A typhoon was coming in a day or so but it was so bright
and blaring you wouldn't think so. I remember it being VERY
bright.

Q. - In what part of the sky was the UFO located? North, South,
East, West? On the horizon or straight overhead or somewhere in
between?

A. - Directly overhead.

Q. - Did the UFO move? How far and how fast? Describe its
movements in detail as best you can.

A. - People were looking up, so we did too (three of us
friends). They didn't appear to move for about a minute, but
rather were very still in the sky, high up. They slowly seemed
to be floating all together, mostly retaining the shape they
were in, which I describe below. They all of a sudden, two were
not there. I might have looked down or something, but when I
looked up again, I just saw one. I had to look hard and finally
saw a second one. The other two were totally gone. They were
still overhead but moving in a direction I can't determine. They
appeared to be hovering, yet moving slowly. Then both of those
two were also gone. We left. Many people saw this, as they were
stopping and staring and pointing. A security car with two
guards came by and stopped and looked as well. Soon one security
guard was on the radio/walkie talkie talking to someone and the
other had binoculars, looking.

Q. - Would you please describe the appearance of the objects,
size, shape, color and distance away from your location. Also
was there any sound heard ?

A. - There were four circular discs, they were very close to
each other and made up the four points/corners of what I would
consider a trapezoid shape in the sky, a square/tight, small
rectangle but with one or two sides longer/shorter than the
other two. They appeared to be all the same size and distance
from us, none seemed larger than the others. Shape was
completely round and appeared like discs, flat. They were
identical in shape and size, but one had more glare to it and
they seemed to be going in the direction that it was "facing,"
they all seemed otherwise smooth and shiny, and silver color.
The bright one was the only one I saw the entire time.

Q. - Describe the area in which you made the sighting. Is it
near an airport? An Air Force Base? A military or research
installation of any kind?

A. - In a large open space on top of a small hill in the middle
of Tokyo. There are two airports in Tokyo that I know of. One is
to the east and north of where we saw them. The other airport if
farther away and south.

Q. - Were there any aircraft near or in the area at the time of
the sighting ?

A. - NO

Q. - If you can add anymore to this event, this would be great.

A. - We were in the public gardens of the imperial palace, where
tourists and locals concentrate to enjoy the large garden where
you can sit on the grass, etc. We were leaving, it was around
2:00 p.m. or so. We noticed local, older people in their late
60's or early 70's looking up at the sky and pointing. Other
people started to look up, so there was a smattering of both
locals and tourists looking up at the sky and seeing this. I've
never had this kind of experience so only in hindsight did I
really think about strange it was what we saw. I was with two
friends, one is 65 and the other, 31, was carrying her 2 yr old.
We all saw the discs. I can't recall exactly, but we also
experienced earthquake tremors in the middle of the night during
the same week. A week after we left is when the big earthquake
occurred.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

HBCC UFO Research Note: If anyone else had witnessed this event,
would they please be kind enough to contact me with details on
this sighting. Thank you. Brian.

------------------------

Phoenix Arizona Golden Orbs And Mysterious Mushroom Cloud

Date: October 30, 2004
Time: Clip #1 10:21 a.m. - Clip #2 11:00 a.m.

When I first saw this object I thought it was balloons and
didn't pay much attention to it at first but I noticed this was
different. Upon closer review I realized this object was several
orbs lighting up in a sequence and turning off in another
sequence. That's why it looked like balloons reflecting
sunlight. It's not because I followed this object to the very
end of it's cycles. I should call this object Dr. Jeckyl and Mr.
Hyde because it took on two totally different formations, colors
and personalities.

It went West when I first taped it as golden orbs and East when
it turned a long white line of orbs. I taped it for 45 minutes
on and off. When in golden stage it shows two orbs on top that
lit up first and than bursts into five or six golden orbs and
back down to the two lit ones. It did this systematic routine
the whole time (20min). When I zoomed out and the object looked
like a little dot that looked like it was pulsating. The object
did turn to the West and the light show was still visible but
only from the back and side which was great because you could
see that this was actually a solid object with lights popping
out from its body. A little later the object rose to about twice
the altitude it was before, around 1000ft-3000ft. and only one
orb on the very top was lit. I could see something coming out
the bottom like a tail of some sort. Then it stopped, changed
direction and came back towards me.

Now the object is all white! I couldn't believe my good fortune.
I was seeing the golden object change shape and color and head
back my way. It moved about 5mph just like when it was in golden
stage but now it was being systematic again. Twisting and
turning over and over again doing the same thing the whole time
I taped it (20min). I don't know what else to say except you be
the judge because I don't want to be. This was too weird.
Speaking of weird... before all this happened I taped a flock of
about 20 orbs flying overhead for 4 seconds, up to nine orbs
making a half circle and leaving while making a straight line
and a weird mushroom cloud that started this weird morning.

Thank you to the gentleman for all of the clips and report.

Video clip and pictures are =A92004RichG.

Video clip #1 Phoenix Arizona Golden Orbs 3.56 mbs
Video clip #2 Phoenix Arizona Golden Orbs Turning White (clip 2)
3.63 mbs

Video clips can be viewed at:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D2026
------------------------

Kingsland, Texas Three Red Lights Blinking & Zipping Through The Sky

Date: October 30, 2004
Time: 8:45 p.m.

I saw something last night about 8:45 p.m. going east, didn't
have my camera with me and could have pinched myself for not.
The moon was a beautiful orange color (good for Halloween) I was
looking at it and I saw three red lights blinking and zipping
all over the area of the full moon, but not quiet as high as a
plane. I was close to my destination and had to get out of the
truck. When I got back in the truck to leave about 2 hrs later
they were gone. I cant think of anything going that fast. I see
something weird and don't have my camera with me. My bad luck.
There were just a few wispy clouds now and again, but clear when
I saw these.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

---------------------

UFO Around Maymount, Saskatchewan

Date: November 1, 2004
Time: 5:30 p.m.

Message: Spotted a UFO around Maymount, Sask on November 1, 2004
at 5:30 p.m. - 3 witnesses, 1 object seen.

A brilliant light low in the sky, seemed not to be moving,
watched it for several miles along highway 26 we were headed
north from Saskatoon to North Battleford, the light was to our
right, watched with misbelief, wondering what it could be, my
father got the camera out and ready to take a picture when it
disappeared, instantly, like they shut off the lights, nothing
left in the sky we looked for miles to find some sort of object,
jet stream and there was absolutely nothing.

I thought when and if I seen a UFO It would be very scary and
disturbing - Not the case, I, along with my parents were very
happy. I am 38 years of age, my parents are both 75.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

---------------------

Grande Prairie, Alberta Star Like Object

Date: November 2 2004
Time: 9:15 p.m.

Location of Sighting: Directly above the city of Grande Prairie.
Number of witnesses: 2
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Star like.

Full Description of event/sighting: Hi Brian.

My husband was outside having a cigarette when I heard him call
me. I went outside to see him pointing up at the sky. I looked
for a moment and could not see what he was pointing at. He said
he saw a star that was gently swaying back and forth and very
slowly moving from one location to another. I watched for a
moment and sure enough. There was something up there. It looked
to be at a very high altitude and it did not emit any flashing
lights. There was no sound. The sky was clear.

The way the object moved was as though it was scanning an area.
It appeared to hover close to another star and then slowly move
to another where it would hover and then it would go back to the
other star...then go to a different one. It was all very
strange.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

---------------------

Apollo Bay, Australia A Possible Missing Time Experience

My friends and I had a missing time experience on the way home
from a holiday at Apollo Bay (Australia)during the 4+ hour drive
we made a detour to visit a campsite in a secluded valley in the
Wombat State Forest. It was at least a 20 minute drive along
dirt roads into the place.

I can't remember the name of the place but I do recall that we
all felt uncomfortable at the site. The closest that I come to
describing it was that it felt like we were being watched by
someone with malicious intent. Another thing that stood out to
me was a large picture over the fire place in the dining hall.
It was of a close up painting of the head and shoulders of an
Aboriginal Elder.

We looked over the campsite to see if it would be usable by our
church youth group for their annual camp. Probably spent about
30 minutes there looking around and talking to the operator.
Then the four of us got back into the car and left the campsite.
We turned left out of the driveway and drove up the hill. The
next thing we knew we were coming out of the forest and onto the
Asphalt road about 18 Kilometers (about 11 miles) away from the
campsite. I turned to my friend in the backseat and asked "Do
you remember" he finished the sentence before I could "Turning
right at the "T" intersection?"

Everyone in the car had the same reaction to it; that is,
something strange just happened but we couldn't figure out what.

We've spoken about it a couple of times since then, I haven't
had a similar situation in terms of the missing time but the
feeling of being watched has returned a few times. I'm not able
to see a pattern in these feelings at all.

I used to have dreams that were too vivid to be just my
imagination. They were always in sepia tones (brown and white).
I would wake up in the night and open my eyes, I could see what
seemed to be a store room, it was like I was hiding behind some
shelving. The dreams would not go away if I closed my eyes at
all, I remember not being afraid but rather having a feeling
that I was intruding on something and that I shouldn't be there.

There is also a scar that I don't know the origins of on my left
cheek. It's been there for as long as I can remember, it reminds
me of an upside down teardrop, about 2mm wide at the top and 4
mm long. I know it's not an Acne scar as it's been there since
long before I ever had any acne.

I hope that this is of some interest to you. Sincerely.

Thank you to the person for this report.

----------------------

Books

UFO Defense Tactics: Weather Shield to Chemtrails - By:
Johnstone, A. K

Dr. Johnstone's book was selected by The Anomalous Book List, as
one of the ten best UFO books of 2002.

Description: The existence of UFOs is a phenomenon that
intrigues and captivates, yet it generates more skepticism than
acceptance. Witnesses of unconventional craft are often
disbelieved and even ridiculed. Belief in the existence of UFOs
is obviously not yet mainstream, but that may one day change.
Over the past few decades, reports of UFO sightings have
dramatically increased in North America. Further, these
sightings have been observed to be more blatant and even
menacing. Some reports even imply that these craft are
monitoring our planet.

Interestingly, many of these sightings have taken place over
military bases. In UFO Weather Shield, A.K. Johnstone, PhD.,
explores the details of numerous sightings from a scientific
viewpoint, including descriptions of craft, luminous sheaths and
fireballs. So what, if anything, is the United States government
doing about it? Johnstone suggests that military and government
agencies have the ability to manipulate weather
electromagnetically and with chemtrails to deter unconventional
craft. This hypothesis also explains erratic changes in the
weather in the last few years. Is the government creating a
weather shield to deter UFOs from entering the earth=92s
atmosphere? Take a look at the evidence.

To purchase the book, please visit:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D1934

Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO Research Home - Phone 250 845 2189
email: hbccufo.nul Website: http://www.hbccufo.com
Redirect: http://www.canadianufo.com HBCC UFO RESEARCH
Newsletter At:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HBCC_UFO_Newsletter/








   UFO UpDates
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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Nov > Nov 4

                          Filer's Files #46 -- 2004

From: George A. Filer <majorstar.nul>
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:34:21 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 05:51:52 -0500
Subject: Filer's Files #46 -- 2004


Filer's Files #46 -- 2004, Skywatch Investigations

George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern

Vice President of Skywatch International

November 3, 2004, Webmaster: Chuck Warren

We Are Not Alone In the Universe

The purpose of these files is to report the UFO eyewitness and
photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the
world and in space as reported each week. Many people claim it
is impossible for UFOs to visit Earth, I ask you only to keep an
open mind and watch the evidence we accumulate each week. These
Files make the assumption that extraterrestrial intelligent life
exists and my hypothesis is that of the over one hundred UFO
reports each week many represent factual UFO sightings in our
skies.

Saturn - Mystery Cylinder near rings. A large humanoid statue
has been found on Mars,

Researchers Detect Methane on Mars indicating life, and a tiny
new species of humanoids as been unearthed.

UFOs were seen over Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey,
Pennsylvania, Georgia, Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin, Missouri,
Utah, New Mexico, Washington, California, Canada, Mexico,
UK/England and Australia.

"President George Bush has won reelection in the largest turnout
of voters in the history of the United States and the first out
right majority since 1988. The people cast 125 million votes and
Bush won by almost 4 million votes. Senator Kerry has been
gracious in defeat in the hard fought election stating "We are
now required to work together for the good of our country."
However, Do not expect revelations from the White House about
UFOs."

Saturn - Mystery Cylinder near F Rings

A series of strange objects that could be spaceships have been
imaged by the Cassini NASA satelite near Saturn. There's
probably a mundane explanation for these objects but they often
appear very different
from asteroids.

This photo taken from 491,000 miles away, shows
a cylinder like object leaving a faint trail as it departs
Saturn's F ring. It is difficut to determine the distance
and size of the cylinder, but its surface seems relatively
smooth. N00023784.jpg

http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/images/raw/

Mars - Large Humanoid Statue

Norman Bryden writes, I have a new image with strong evidence of
intelligent design for you that has gotten a lot of attention.
At top left a structure looks to be a large humanoid statue with
folded hands and possibly a feminine quality to it when
enlarged. It reminds me of the statues of the Nefilim and the
Annunaki of ancient Samaria. This seems to be strong evidence of
more humanoid existence in our solar system, and could possibly
be a connection to Earth's history. Here is a portion of the
full image below and a description of the structures. In this
image from the Mars Global Surveyor there are three areas of
interest. Located near the upper left hand corner is a large
object that looks like a large statue of a humanoid figure. A
head and what looks like folded arms at chest level can be seen.
Near the lower left hand corner is a darker area of an object
that looks like a large square edged building or monument. In
the lower right hand corner is an area that appears to be the
outline of a large square platform.

All three areas appear to be connected by faint indications of
what looks like roads or paths. There are also other marks that
look like paths that lead to or away from the base of the
standing objects. On the full image, especially when enlarged
other strange objects, paths and areas can be seen that look
like they have been intelligently modified. Thanks to Norman
Bryden

MARS MGS IMAGE: HUMANOID STATUE, BUILDING AND PLATFORM *PIC* []

Researchers Detect Methane on Mars

A University of Michigan scientist is part of a European Space
Agency team that has detected methane gas on Mars, the clearest
indicator yet that there could be life there, said Sushil
Atreya, professor and director of the Planetary Science
Laboratory in the College of Engineering. "Biologically produced
methane is one of many possibilities," Atreya said. "Methane is
a potential biomarker, if a planet has methane we begin to think
of the possibility of life on the planet. On Earth, methane is
almost entirely derived from biological sources." Mars resembles
Earth more than any other planet in our solar system, and
studying its atmosphere gives us a greater understanding of our
own. How the methane got to Mars is the big question, and there
are several possible sources, Atreya said. The most exciting
scenario is that methanogens - microbes that consume the Martian
hydrogen or carbon monoxide for energy and exhale methane -
 dwell in colonies out of sight beneath the surface of the red
planet. "These are anaerobic so they don't need oxygen to
survive, if they are there," Atreya said. "If they are there,
they would be underground."

"While it's tantalizing to think there are living things on
Mars, we aren't in a position to say that is what is causing the
methane," Atreya said. A comet could have struck the planet,
which would leave methane behind, but that only happens once
every 60 million years or so, Atreya said. A more likely
scenario is hydrothermal process involving chemical interaction
between rock and water in aquifers below the Martian permafrost.
The instrument that sniffed out the methane is called a
planetary Fourier spectrometer, and it is one of seven
instruments on board the Mars Express spacecraft. The
spectrometer detected an average 10 parts per billion by volume
(ppbv) of methane on Mars, a small amount compared to the
approximately 1700 ppbv on Earth. The methane gas was
distributed unevenly over Mars' surface, which tends to support
the theory that an internal, on-site source, rather than a
comet, is the source generating the methane, said Atreya.

 Tiny New Species of Human Unearthed

NewScientist.com reports, "The remains of a tiny and hitherto
unknown species of human that lived as recently as 13,000 years
ago have been discovered on an Indonesian island. The discovery
has been heralded as the most important palaeoanthropological
find for 50 years, and has radically altered the accepted
picture of human evolution. The skull and bones of one adult
female, and fragments from up to six other specimens, were found
in the Liang Bua limestone caves on Flores Island, which lies at
the eastern tip of Java. The female skeleton, known as LB1 - or
by the  nickname "Ebu" - has been assigned to a new species
within the genus Homo - Homo floresiensis. Examination of the
remains shows members of the species stood just 1 meter tall and
had a brain no bigger than a grapefruit. Jaw-dropping Instead of
following a simple evolutionary path culminating in modern
humans - Homo sapiens - the discovery of LB1 suggests early
humans branched into many more forms than previously thought -
 some of which survived until very recently. The find also shows
that small-brained humans could evolve without losing much of
their intelligence.

 Bernard Wood, an anthropologist at George Washington University
in Washington DC, US. "The implications for the evolution of the
[human] brain are among the most interesting" It raises the
whole issue of what it is to be human, or a member of the genus
Homo," adds Chris Stringer at London'sNatural History Museum,
"And shows how little we really know about human evolution." []

Editor's Note: A three foot tall humanoid with large eyes and
little hair is frequently described by abductees and contactees.
This Time Magazine's artist's drawing of what the caveman is
thought to look like, but perhaps he looks more alien?

Massachusetts -- Disk

BURLINGTON -- The witnesses saw a Saucer like object with very
bright white lights flying slowly overhead on October 25, 2004,
before being lost in the trees. The witness was just leaving
work at 7 PM, and while driving he saw a VERY bright object in
the sky. The witness states, "I was able to view it for ten
minutes before the saucer was lost in the trees. There was some
sort of line in the middle, and at first I thought it might have
been a streetlight, but I noticed it was moving ever so slowly.
The lights were also WHITE, and not yellow, as most street
lights are. Thanks to Peter Davenport

MT. MORRIS -- Three witnesses saw the shape of an object that
appeared as a moving satellite on October 3, 2004, at 4 PM.
After a few moments there were some unbelievable movements of
the object, in a speed that seemed impossible even for an SR-71
Blackbird. At times it would pause and then move erratically in
movements that just made no sense and then at times seemed like
patterns of right angles repeating themselves. It would hover
and it would change colors that would pulse red, blue and white.
Then two other objects appeared along side doing similar
movements. These were not around as long as the first one. As
the sun started to rise and the stars started to disappear this
shiny circular object still appeared faintly. The object would
disappear and reappear when a normal aircraft would circle
around about once every 15 minutes. Then all of a sudden it was
gone and we were all left in shock because we know that what we
saw was not from this world. Thanks to Peter Davenport
www.nuforc.org

BELLE VERNON -- My son awakened me about 12:30 AM and said he
observed a UFO across the street from our house in a wooded
area. When I went to investigate his paranoid sighting, I first
thought it to be the moon. It seemed like a cluster of smaller
lights making it seem to be somewhat circular in shape. I'm
still trying to believe it was the moon. At 1:00 AM, I decided
to check back on the object in question to see how far it moved
in this period of time. I figured if it was the moon, I would be
able to tell better as time would pass. At 1:05 AM, just five
minutes after my last checking on the object, it was gone. I
stepped outside to see if it had drifted elsewhere and the
object was gone. Thanks to Jim Hickman director.nul-
international.org

Georgia - Round Multi Colored Lights

JASPER -- Three witnesses had a sighting round in shape, multi-
 colored lights that would fade, as if lights were being turned
off on October 25, 2004, at 12:36 AM.  The green, red, yellow
and blue lights were moving in a circular motion. This object
flew unlike an airplane or a star or anything in the sky like
this. We didn't really see it MOVE, however, it would sort of
"turn" by that I mean, it looked like it was leaning. Jasper is
about 65 miles from Atlanta. Standard aircraft were seen in the
sky at the time of the sighting but the objects movements were
very different. It was flying in the northwest, but not sure how
far up. The observer states, "You can see the lights going
around it....literally....and they are green, yellow, red, and
blue....very bright lights." They beamed down and then got very
dim but remained for an hour or so later. I have never
experienced anything like this before. I am going to try to
video tape it.

Thanks to Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO Research

Ohio - "UFOs, The Eye and the Camera"

Adrian Vance a former Editor of Popular Photography wrote the
book, "UFOs, The Eye and the Camera" that contained a series of
photos similar to George Ritter's in Ohio. On July 5, 1965, a
Barry Andersson took the above photo on the Russian River near
Anchorage, Alaska at 6 AM, with his 35 mm camera of a disc
shaped craft that he estimated to be 30 feet in diameter. Adrian
Vance writes, "This picture, with a focal-plane shutter, shows
that the disappearance-reappearance mechanism is one that takes
place in stages, and that the object begins to appear in the new
location while it is still dissolving in the old location or
locations. We use the word 'locations' since the Andersson
photograph also shows that the device can be in several places
at one moment, i.e. part in one spot, part in another and so
on." (Page 41). He goes on to speculate that, "The fact that
this machine can dissolve in space and spread itself over
several locations indicates that its operators have a very high
degree of technology. This picture demonstrates that the process
proceeds from one side of the object to the other, and that in
the interval of the Anderson photograph, 1/125 second, the
object was in six places. The fact that they have picked
operating cycles that are just beyond human vision indicates
that they understand the process in a war, and in terms, that I
have not read about before this writing." (Page 49).

FOSTORIA -- George Ritter is using a VHS camera that provides
multiple advantages to a single image camera. Many times during
George's filming the second frame of the film will show the
craft about 100 feet from the first position indicating speeds
of about 2000 mph or the possibility of disappearance-
reappearance mechanism. However, as Adrian Vance stated they may
be actually dissolving in one location and reappearing in
another. This action infers that the craft may be a type of time
machine. Adrian may be correct in his assumptions or that the
speed of the craft is so great they are not fully captured by
the camera. This video image seems to show an upward movement of
the craft. Thanks to George Ritter.


Michigan - Lights

LANSING -- The witnesses report seeing nine lights on October
26, 2004, at 8 PM that looked like this:
____________ \__________. It flew very fast and was pretty close
down to the earth. The witness states, "My friend and I were
walking in the Nature Center of Lansing, and there is this
clearing of trees, and we must have just been in the right place
at the right time when I looked up and saw it first." I grabbed
my friend and told him, "LOOK LOOK OMG DID YOU SEE THAT? He saw
the tail end of it! It was a short experience...very strange.
Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.nuforc.org

Wisconsin - Continuing UFO Encounters

FREDERIC -- Brian Vike reports: The events started at the
beginning of August 2004, at 10 PM, when he was telephoned by
Shawn, who stated his family was having continuing UFO
encounters 30 miles north of Frederic. Shawn reports seeing
lights and objects on a non-stop basis and was extremely worried
for his family's safety. When returning home he noticed a
strange light which was bouncing and zipping across the sky.
Shawn knowing this was really unusual pulled his vehicle off the
road and watched the light maneuvering all over the sky. He
drove home quickly and they managed to film it, but the light
shows up as only a speck.

Weeks later Shawn was out on the deck and saw a white, strange
maneuvering light that flickered in red, blue and green. He
grabbed a strong flashlight and blinked it off and on towards
the weird light. The light flashed back and seemed to respond to
his actions. He was totally surprised and then used his
daughter's red laser pointer to flash the object. The light
immediately turned solid red and signaled back just like what
Shawn was doing.

Later that night about 11 PM, the object came down over his
property and illuminated the area. A large circular orange ball
of light sat over their pond 500 feet away like a wiggling and
oscillating ball of Jell-O. At arm's length the object was the
size of a bowling ball."

The entire area was lit up due to the object's brightness. Shawn
grabbed his video camera and his wife grabbed her digital camera
and started taking photos. With the object still stationary over
the pond they looked through their view finders and saw only
blackness. They looked up and the object was still sitting there
shining brightly. His wife took twelve photos of the bright
light, but nothing showed up.

Shawn said , "He felt a large jolt of electricity surge through
his body which almost knocked him to the ground." He asked his
wife did she feel that, she said no. She asked him "Did you see
that? That thing shot a red light at you!"

The frightened couple ran back into the house. About 4 AM, they
got up enough nerve to peep out the window. It was still there,
it looked like a bright arc welder with bright flashes and beams
of bluish colored light was shooting out from the object. They
observed at least ten smaller lights sitting in the air and at
this point the wind blew up and literally shook the house. They
thought they were going to lose their home due to the strength
of the wind! They were unable to discern if there were separate
objects or one large craft with multiple lights. Shawn said that
he was getting more concerned and scared by the minute.

Three cars drove by on the highway past their home that was lit
up by the UFO, but the drivers didn't seem to notice. The whole
episode with the wind, lights and beams lasted for three hours.
It became so bad that Shawn, his wife and daughter covered the
window in their daughter's bedroom and huddled in the corner
because they were so scared. Eventually the wind died down and
Shawn looked out and saw the lights had disappeared. Feeling a
little relieved the couple sat in their daughter's room
discussing and wondering about what had just taken place. They
were unable to sleep due to their rattled nerves.

After forty-five minutes Shawn decided to take a look out the
window. His wife said "please don't." He slowly pulled the
curtain aside and saw an object in the shape of a half circle,
filled with tiny lights heading off towards the southeast. The
family was thankful it was all over and finally they could get
some sleep. Thanks to Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO Research

Missouri - Hovering Object

Saint Louis -- The witness was walking his dogs with his lady
friend on October 3, 2004, at 3:30 PM, in Jefferson Barracks
Park when they glanced up in a clear blue sky and noticed an
object flying south. It was a massive light source flickering
brightly to the right of the sun. Even after it passed to the
left of the sun there was still this very bright flashing light.
If it was a reflection from the sun, it would have long since
passed the point of reflection. The small object was well above
40,000 feet, and had no contrail. It began to slow down after it
crossed 2/3's of the sky, and came to a complete stop!

His friend had continued to walk on the trail and didn't see it
stop. He ran to catch up to his friend, but she was walking in a
wooded area blocking their view. He states, "I can't help but to
think that if I had stayed where I was originally, I could have
seen what happened to the object." Thanks to Peter Davenport
Director www.nuforc.org

Colorado - Cattle killings

Ron Regehr MUFON writes, "I read with interest the Associated
Press article regarding the bizarre killing of three cows at the
Osburn ranch. In the article, Deputy Folks is credited with
stating, "There were no visible marks on the cattle indicating
how they were killed." Further, the article claimed a state
veterinarian had been asked to investigate. Ron is attempting to
determine the status of the investigation, and if there have
been any further incidents, either at the Osburn ranch or in the
county? Thanks to Ron Regehr Utah State Director MUFON

New Mexico - Oval

ALBUQUERQUE -- At around 8 PM, on October 1, 2004, the witness
went outside on his porch to put out some trash and looked up
towards the Sandia Mountains  and saw an oval shaped dull
(fuzzy) white light speeding through the sky. He stood looking
for a few minutes, and ten minutes later he came back outside
with binoculars because he saw high flying planes that he could
not hear and he wanted to watch if they were circling the area.
He then saw two circular lights moving through or behind a small
cloud. The lights were smaller than the oval, round and moving
separately, kind of zig zagging and very fast. At around 9 PM,
directly overhead and much, much higher than the lights, I saw
what could have been a shooting star whip through the sky.
Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.nuforc.org

Washington - Slow Moving Triangle and Disk

PUYALLUP -- The observer walked outside, and saw a long triangle
shaped object with a light at the bottom at 8:15 PM, on October
24, 2004. The triangle was moving very slowly and without noise.
He got his digital camera and captured an image of an object
with a small light in the middle. When blown up, it looks like
there were two lights, but when passing overhead, only one was
visible. It continued to move slowly for 20 to 30 minutes until
it just looked like a star. I live next to an Air Force Base so
it could have been a B -1 bomber on a steady course. Thanks to
Peter Davenport Director www.nuforc.org

EATONVILLE -- The witness was taking photos of Mt. Rainier on a
clear day at the onset of sunset on October 2, 2004. He did not
see anything strange when he took the images but they showed up
on his computer screen when he down loaded the photos from his
Sony Cybershot digital camera. The digital images show one to
six craft hovering around Mt. Rainier. A photo taken from the
west side along Highway 706 going north into Eatonville has one
craft to the right. Taken between 6 to 6:15 PM, photo #2 shows
three to six definitely in a craft shape. One of the six is
possibly a bird, but the other five are craft. Thanks to Peter
Davenport Director www.nuforc.org

California - UFO Hovers Over Fault

SANTA CRUZ MOUNTAINS -- UFOs are sometimes identified as
"Earthquake Lights," but a recurring, long-duration and high
altitude craft hovering over the Santa Cruz Mountains does not
seem to fit that category. James Gilliland of ECETI.com, writes:
"At 7:30 on Thursday, October 21st a golden light was seen
hovering over the Santa Cruz Mountains. It was 30 degrees on the
horizon as being observed from the beach just south of Mt.
Madona. There were several witnesses including my brother, Jay
Gilliland. People were lined up observing the object which also
appeared several months ago in the same location. It was a
golden light which seemed translucent. There were no strobes,
nor red and green running lights which are standard on other
aircraft. It was a quarter the size of the moon. It hovered
directly over the fault line for around 20 minutes. The light
became brighter, changing from golden to bright white and then
just disappeared. These lights were too high to be Earthquake
lights that typically manifest close to the ground, along
stressed fault lines. They do not necessarily mean that an
earthquake is imminent. Thanks to ufojames.nul

MODESTO - R. David Anderson writes, "This bright ufo was above
the roof of my house on Saturday October 30th. It became very
bright and stayed stationary as I took this picture. After I
took the picture it quickly faded out. It was visible for about
20 seconds altogether. Since the object was stationary during
the entire time, this must be its true shape. It is very long in
the photo, but I am certain that this type of ufo is also able
to change shape. I am attaching the entire file so you can edit
it yourself from the original image.

Thanks to R. David Anderson

MEXICO -- Sixteen UFOs

ORIZABA AND CORDOBA, VERACRUZ.-- El Sol de Orizaba.
 Unidentified flying objects were seen in the sky around 8:30
a.m. causing great expectation among residents of Orizaba and
C=C3=B3rdoba on October 28, 2004. Hundreds of residents of the
C=C3=B3rdoba-Orizaba area were witnesses to a seldom-seen spectacle.
For several minutes, numerous unidentified flying objects were
witnessed in the skies as students saw some white dots that
resembled balloons. The unusual event also happened to attract
the attention of parents and teachers. A principal teacher of
the Constitucion de 1917 High School, said initially there were
5 or 7, that finally totaled 14 or 16.

"They were white, not shiny like stars. They moved in a circle
at first and then they headed single file toward Orizaba,"
remarked the witness, adding that both students and teachers
witnessed the event, which lasted some 25 minutes. Also, in
Orizaba, at the Carlos Cardenas Rojas primary school Mayor
Martin Cabrera Zavaleta headed a civic event when a student
asked that people look up. "First they were 6, then 9. Suddenly
they started moving while others remained fixed," said one
witness. Two of the strange objects moved toward one side and 6
toward the opposite side. One of them remained motionless and
finally all of them vanished. Translation (c) 2004. Scott
Corrales, Institute of Hispanic The Journal of Hispanic Ufology


UK - UFO CRASH AT WORLEY?

WORLEY -- The Manchester Evening News, reports an explosion
rocked the greater Manchester area on October 13, 2004, at 7:30
AM. UK ufologist Stephen F. Balon reports, "At first it was
thought an earthquake was the cause. The British Geological
Survey was contacted and said this had not disturbed any seismic
instruments." "Dozens of people living in Worley sent their
comments to the Manchester Evening News Web site to give their
explanations of what had happened," Balon added, I have been
investigating this case for days, and a UFO crashed in a woods
near the center of Worley and that the site was cordoned off by
police for a few days thereafter.  The Evening News states, a
woman driving home from work saw in the sky two fireball-type
objects with flames coming off them. I have collected reports
from dozens of individuals who saw these two objects in
different areas." A motorist pulled onto the hard shoulder due
to hearing the huge explosion. He said he saw smoke coming from
the woods near to where the (other) man had seen the police
looking around. Plainclothes police were walking in pairs near
the scene." "The last piece of the jigsaw in this case concerns
a lady in the town of Bury who on the day of the explosion saw
four RAF (Tornado fighter) jets flying at a very low level,
heading towards the Salford-Manchester area." Thanks to Stephen
F. Balon and UFO Roundup Vol. 9, # 4, 10/27/04, Editor: Joseph
Trainor http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/

Australia - Transparent Sphere

IPSWICH -- The witness reports, "October 2, 2004, at 10:30 PM, I
was at Royal Australian Air Force Base Amberley watching the
model planes and spotted a clear sphere in the direction of
Denmark Hill and the old control tower. The sphere seemed far
away and was traveling east in straight and level flight. Its
size was 3mm diameter as measured with the fingers at full arm's
length. Its height was about 20 degrees above horizon and was a
glass ball in that I could see the complete spherical outline
with the left side being slightly brighter. This agrees with the
location of the sun.

I spotted it while looking at a large model 1-2 meters across
from a distance of about 50 meters. I stopped following the
model (from left to right) and watched the sphere intently for
about 5-8 seconds and then I deliberately looked away while
closing and rolling my eyes.

I looked back; I could not see it straight away: It was a
perfectly clear sky. There was nothing to focus on anywhere, so
I strained and then I caught it (10 seconds later) again  It was
smaller and seemed further away and was blending into the blue
of the sky.

It only dawned on me then that I had my 35mm SLR and a 200mm
lens with me but I was unable to capture the object. My feelings
are as follows: It was not a balloon due to its straight and
determined flight path. I believe it was large, say three plus
meters across. This impression was formed due to my experience
of observing aircraft at altitude and distance (ex RAAF and keen
follower of Air Force displays) and my rather good view. It was
rigid, as if it was a solid globe structure. Its straight and
purposeful flight is what grabbed my interest.

The Greater UFO/ET Congress of 2004

Will be held November 6 and 7th 2004, 11:00 am to 3:00 PM
Saturday and Sunday at the Days Inn, Route 206 & NJTP Exit #7
North Bordentown NJ, 609-298-6100 For more information visit
www.DRUFO.org or phone Pat Marcattillio (609) -631-8955 or Tom
Benson (609)-883-6926 after 6:00 PM.

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   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Nov > Nov 4

                         Re: Gemini 11 UFO? - Smith

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:03:58 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 06:05:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Gemini 11 UFO? - Smith


I was looking at Bruce Maccabee's web site:

http://brumac.8k.com/Gemini_11/GEMINI_11.html

I wanted to know if anyone knew where the data was obtained that
conclusively showed the orientation of the Gemini capsule.

Also, reading the Gemini 11 transcript shows a trash dump at
about 2.5 hours earlier with an unknown departure velocity.

During Gemini 12, they watched trash bags go in the distance and
it took 3-4 orbits to disappear.

http://www.project1947.com/shg/condon/s3chap06.html#s8

Surely there is more than a remote chance that the Gemini 11
UFOs being the trash bags? It all seems to hinge on deduction of
UFO orbit inclination based on the Gemini capsule orientation. I
agree that the trash could not have plane changed nor did the
Gemini capsule, although early before the UFO photos, the
transcript shows them expermineting with the attitude thrusters.








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   Nov > Nov 4

                           Re: Human Races - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 16:27:01 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 06:12:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Human Races - White


>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:03:13 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
>Subject: Re: Human Races

<snip>

>>When Indonesian archaeologists uncovered the remains of several
>>ancient skeletons in a remote island cave, the discovery was
>>hailed as introducing modern humans to an unfamiliar two-legged
>>cousin: Homo floresiensis. Here were signs that a different
>>species of human had evolved on an island in the Indian Ocean.

<snip>

Why is it that these skeletons are a "new species", when pygmies
and midgets aren't?


Eleanor White








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                          Re: Orb Study Site - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:41:39 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 06:13:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Orb Study Site - King


>From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:39:01 -0500
>Subject: Re: Orb Study Site

><snip>

>I know many people who think orbs are ghosts, they are just
>ignorant to explainations of them. There are some orb like
>photos that seem to indicate some kind of paranormal event. They
>are hard to find amongst the dust orbs.

>Any of you know of the "Entity case", where there is a photo
>taken that is considered the only scientifically validated ghost
>photo? The photo is of a reverse arc of light in the room.  I
>was wondering if this could have been orb like, but moving. Any
>comments on that photo? I re-found it several weeks ago, after
>watching the movie that was showing on cable. But I just
>relooked and couldn't find the photo again. Wish I knew what
>keywords I used to find it the other times. If any of you want
>to see the photo, I'll look harder for it, and provide a link.


Hi Aaron,

I'd be very interested in seeing the image. It always amuses me
when I see a photo which someone claims includes something
paranormal.

When you sit on a pier and dangle your feet into the water, you
see how the water refracts the light and makes your legs look
bent at an impossible angle. When you have on a pair of
polarized sunglasses, and remove them in very bright sunlight,
you realize how much light was actually being completely hidden
from your view.

Likewise, a camera...a system of optics, timing and light-
sensitive material, will only record what remains after the
incident light travels through the atmosphere, the multiple
elements of the optics, and eventually comes to rest on the
light-sensitive material. In all this traveling, the light is
altered in color, brightness, contrast, and geometry, and is
split, inverted and recomposed. In other words, a photograph is
never a true depiction of what is before it, but merely a crude
representation. The better the camera, the more opportunities
for ambient light pollution, from the front of the camera as
well as the rear, due to more optical elements, single lens
reflex design, larger apertures and lens diameters, etc.

In examining a photograph, you must always remember that a
camera is not an eye. It is to the human eye what a typical MP3
file is to a digitally mastered full-fidelity recording. And
even the eye is not perfect.

Once you have had the time and interest to take a large number
of photographs, you learns that the system is imperfect, prone
to error, and rife with artifacts unintended, by both the
photographer and the manufacturer.

I believe that the best way to answer or address the claims
about orbs is to demonstrate that the particular artifacts are
easily reproducible, and provably not anomalous in nature,
except as to their spoiling an otherwise good photograph.

Another step which introduces artifacts, albeit only with regard
to film cameras, is the film and print processing. While working
with a commercial Cine processing machine, we occasionally had
to stop the film for mechanical reasons and pull it out and
place it in stop bath to halt the development process. While the
film sat in the buckets of stop bath, often sprocket holes or
film edges would form a shadow on adjacent film, and leave very
peculiar fogging effects on several negatives.

The host of potential "contaminants" in any photograph makes
claims of anomalous nature entirely unscientific, and impossible
to prove, since in every case, the anomaly is not visible to the
eye, does not reflect in a mirror, and appears as any number of
completely understood light artifacts of the photographic
processes themselves.

Show mw two photographs of the same scene with an orb in both
shots in the same location, and we'll talk. Show me a photo of
an orb reflected in a mirror, and I'll concede.

Just as a microscope can show you a world in a drop of water, a
camera can likewise amplify the tiny and mundane into something
very large, and it is only the perception of the photographer
which differentiates whether it is an annoying distraction, or
an anomalous apparition.

If you find the image, I'd like to take a stab at analyzing it.

Thanks for the post.


Best Regards,

Kyle









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                    Re: Shielding & Harassment - Reynolds

From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:42:53 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 06:16:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Shielding & Harassment - Reynolds


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:01:35 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Subject: Re: Shielding & Harassment

>>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 17:28:40 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Shielding & Harassment

<snip>

>>Paranormal doesn't explain the solid half of the experience
>>which is non-stop conventional harassment by people, including
>>rumour campaigns and lies which never stop until the target's
>>career and marriage are totally destroyed. You can't explain
>>this experience by separating the advanced mind/body effects
>>from the harassment by people.

>I can't understand that either, it seems unlike anything I've
>read, namely that demons or ghosts inspire other folk to do
>rumor campaigns or put lies in other folks minds. I mean, it
>seems like alot of trouble for them, and who knows, maybe this
>is a new demonic policy?

One of our fellows here suffered almost identical "symptoms"
experienced by Eleanor White and her comrades.

He was diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic, after being turned
in to city officials by a Lutheran priest he sought for help.

He was incarcerated for severals days.

Being a psychology major in college, I accepted the terminology
explaining his dilemma(s). I was wrong. He actually was subdued
by an anomalous experience that went away as fast as it came.

Since then - a few years ago - I'm thinking that he, and maybe
Ms. White), suffer(ed) the "possessions" rampant among the
Ursuline nuns of Loudun in 1634.

Ms. White's episodes are ongoing and apparently tangible, as
were the nuns, until they were "cleansed" by ecclesiastical
authorities.

Has anyone tried to determine the common denominator(s) among
those who are afflicted?


Rich Reynolds








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                          Gen. Wesley Clark On UFOs

From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul>
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:27:40 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 06:21:16 -0500
Subject: Gen. Wesley Clark On UFOs


During the 2003/2004 Democratic Presidential primaries,
candidate Gen. Wesley Clark spoke of his personal belief that
mankind would eventually achieve faster-than-light travel and
explore space.

What prompted Clark's radical remarks?

At a political rally for John Kerry in Reno, Nevada on Oct. 30,
2004, I asked Gen. Clark if he had ever been briefed on the
subject of UFOs when he was in the military.

Clark didn't deny it nor did he directly confirm it, instead
dropping carefully worded hints that UFOs were real.

He said that he had "heard a bit" in the military, that there
were indeed "things going on", and like his earlier faster-than-
light remarks, said we would have to develop our own
mathematics.

He even dropped a very broad hint about Roswell.

For the full story see:

http://www.roswellproof.com/Gen_Wesley_Clark_UFOs.html


David Rudiak








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                     Re: Shielding & Harassment - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 19:50:23 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 06:24:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Shielding & Harassment - White


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:01:35 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Subject: Re: Shielding & Harassment

<snip>

>>We have trouble with that too, and I think the answer is that
>>this is clearly the work of a huge international organization.
>>Being an organization, you have a very large number of diverse
>>motives. At the top, it's greed for having God-like power over
>>the masses.

>Directing people to do things for you is a sensible use of
>power. Having the ability to levitate objects, simulate sounds,
>cause physical manipulation in a person is not sensible. If
>these guys aren't asking you to do something for them in
>exchange for not harassing you then they are irrational. Even
>terrorists have rationality although we may not agree with them.
>If they got their hands on the tech you are talking about then
>we are obviously doomed.

I absolutely disagree with you on that, James. But that is my
Christian faith talking. I never even think about
"hopelessness", or hope. My job is to try to expose and stop
this. It is up to God whether or not that happens.

Obviously God permits _horrible_ things to happen to people all
the time. I don't understand why, however, I firmly believe He
has the power to expose and stop this.

>>At the middle, it's the money and perks and sadistic thrills, if
>>the anonymous emails from the alleged middle managers are for
>>real. (They seem real to us.)

>But money must come from somewhere. It must be limited
>and thus there is a law of diminishing returns coming into play
>in that after they have ground you into the dirt, what is the
>cost benefit ratio of continuing expensive psy ops on you.

The money comes from the central bank system, as I see it.
Virtually every country has a central bank, where money is just
printed, created out of nothing. And since the top of the
pyramid is made up of, in my view, the owners of these privately
owned, but apparently government, banks, they can create their
own money.

Secondarily, I have a suspicion that some of the proceeds of
crime, such as drug peddling, also help the criminal harassment
"pyramid."

I can't prove this, but at least these ideas show what is
possible.

>>** Very importantly, remember the leaders of the lower level
>>perps tell dreadful _lies_ about the target. Some of the lower
>>ranking people are religious zealots who believe the Lord has
>>commissioned them to "straighten sinners out."

>Still, low level people cannot be completely controllable given
>their nature, thus they must be able to escape with the tech or
>methods for use in their own schemes and be catchable by
>authorities.

That is a puzzle. I have actually heard them outside my apt.
door grumbling about some 'rule' the leaders lay on them. But
they either obey, or get out and remain silent. In very rare
cases, perps will talk directly to us. With one fellow in
California, one perp told him that he was arrested, and given
the choice of harassing the target, or being prosecuted for a
crime he had been caught at. In another case, a police officer
in Los Angeles told one of our members he had been badly burned
on his leg by a weapon wielded by one of these harassment gangs.

I haven't ever heard, and this is world wide, of a perp actually
leaving the harassment gang and blowing the whistle.

I can tell you first hand that early in my torture, I had a
level of all body pain demonstrated briefly to me that must
equal being burned alive. Mercifully the demos were short. (The
classic pattern is "twos" - they give their targets _two_ demos
of whatever they want to show off. Never just one, never three.)

Now if each gang member is given that pain demo, I _guarantee_
you they _will_ follow the rules.

Other options for control are showing the gang members torture/
snuff videos of other gang members who didn't keep silent.

What I'm saying is, when you are an utterly amoral, ruthless
criminal organization, which has such influence you can't be
touched by law enforcement, controlling your underlings is not
an insurmountable problem, especially when you have silent,
zero-trace-evidence technology.

>>When you look at it as a huge organization and a very large
>>array of diverse motives, it becomes much more understandable.

>>If you can't accept the idea of a shadow world government, then
>>you would have difficulty understanding the concept of
>>international harassment of one in a hundred people.

>Yeah, its hard to accept.

Try some regular listening, even just as background for other
activities, to some of these shows, particularly "The Power
Hour" and Alex Jones, listening info here:

http://www.multistalkervictims.org/patriotradio.htm

Both web and shortwave work, and in some cities, these shows are
carried by a few (brave) AM and FM stations. Microbroadcasters
also carry them.

You will recoil from the radio or PC at first, but over and
over, people call in who recoiled at first. They say they
independently checked the evidence presented and now realize
these shows for the most part give the "straight skinny". The
information comes from the hosts' own research, FOIA requests,
researcher-authors such as in the UFO community, and military
and government whistleblowers. It is a large picture but once
you get a few pieces of the puzzle together, you can see what is
happening behind the scenes. Some of the info is exaggerated, as
with any human endeavour. But not much of it.

Keep plenty of space between the facts the shows present and the
_opinions_ of the hosts. Some of their opinions are far from
sensible, but I listen because no other media outlets deliver
the information these shows do.

<snip>

>>You may be right about the demonic aspect, in other words.

>Well, I would not give up on exorcism/blessing/whatever because
>whether it is straightly Satanic/demonic or inspired by such,
>some help from the other side is in order. I don't know why it
>requires a "special order" to get help from the good guys, but
>apparently its needed.

I'm told Catholic exorcisms have to be approved by the Vatican,
a long shot for general use. However, when I read stories about
the demonically possessed, even though some of the effects taken
in _isolation_ are "like" what we go through, the overall
pattern is very different. More than that, the people who are
possessed are the perps, not us, and getting a perp to be
exorcised would take a miracle!

Attacked isn't the same as possessed, but, I'm sure some of us
would be only too glad to try exorcism. (Intense prayer really
does seem to help for short periods.)

If anyone on this List knows of an exorcist with a good track
record, and such a person would be interested in trying the
ritual on one of us, I'll try to help arrange a meeting with
someone in the volunteer's area.

One major problem is that when we go to _anyone_ who is not
aware of what is happening, they regard us as nut cases and
don't want to even talk with us. An exorcist with a reputation
to protect would be very likely to _not_ want to try exorcism
with us, based on experiences seeking other various avenues of
help.

<snip>

>>We have stories from other targets that one will get voice to
>>skull transmissions or other bodily effects while someone they
>>are embracing feels nothing. Still other stories say that the
>>other person gets different effects, or, just a trace of
>>whatever effect the target is experiencing.
>
>It is depressing that the powers demonstrated are so vast!

You know something? It doesn't depress my spirits. What it tells
me is that UFO-level technology is real, and we are some unknown
amount of time away from having it out in the open, where it can
be used for good purposes.

I don't think that overcoming the perps will be that difficult.

I believe that once the general public knows what is going on,
basically it's over for the perps.

>I have read reports of object disappearance and reappearance
>related to ghosts (or demons if you want) and poltergiests. But
>consider the ramifications. If true then the entire supply of
>gold in Fort Knox is at risk. Diamonds or even large quantities
>of cash money can disappear. Since this is not happening, we can
>assume the forces doing it don't need these items implying it is
>not humans. To be sure, if humans were involved, then at least a
>few perps would want a pay raise using this method.

This isn't happening in my view because the guys who own the
valuables are the ones running this harassment program.

>Also, it seems that these forces know all your thoughts and have
>complete control of mental and physical processes. This seems
>very much in line with demonic/ghost phenomena but if possible
>by humans we again are left with the possibility of ALL secrets
>being known by someone with this tech. If so, then launch codes
>to nukes, bank account numbers, everything is easily accessable
>and if humans are doing it, then they may again just want a pay
>raise and do it in their free time. Is this happening? I have
>not heard about it. Thus, although these secrets are accessed,
>the forces or beings have no use for the data and are satisified
>with just harassing people which fits in line with
>ghosts/demons.

My world view is that the perps, at the top levels, are the guys
who own the visible governments, including military forces. They
can get the launch codes, but you won't necessarily know it
because the top perps may not plan to launch any missiles.

>Nothing seems to tie into aliens who have separate kinds of
>motivation from the actions you have described.

The only tie I see is the possibility that some of the
technology was from recovered UFOs, and/or, directly from some
deal with the aliens.

However, I'll toss out an idea here: Maybe some cases of demonic
possession are cases of criminal alien possession, using their
advanced technology, if all the facts were to be known.
Question: Can aliens also be demonically possessed?

>>Don't forget a possibility I'm convinced of, that devices which
>>can replicate natural paranormal effects probably exist. After
>>all, Robert Pavlita in Czechoslovakia after WW II demonstrated
>>inert shapes made of various materials capable of being
>>"charged" by a psychic and then being able to replicate
>>paranormal effects.

>Yes, but have they been replicated by non-NWO folk, the
>veritable hoard of New-Agers out there. No.

How do you know the CIA's (for example) black project locker
isn't full of such devices? Pavlita stated that he was keeping
the secret because he wanted to develop his technology into
patented devices.

<snip>

>>Paranormal doesn't explain the solid half of the experience
>>which is non-stop conventional harassment by people, including
>>rumour campaigns and lies which never stop until the target's
>>career and marriage are totally destroyed. You can't explain
>>this experience by separating the advanced mind/body effects
>>from the harassment by people.

>I can't understand that either, it seems unlike anything I've
>read, namely that demons or ghosts inspire other folk to do
>rumor campaigns or put lies in other folks minds. I mean, it
>seems like alot of trouble for them, and who knows, maybe this
>is a new demonic policy?

As I suggested, this may be a major plan by Satan to take over
our entire species. All of our observations and experiences
would be covered by that possibility.


Eleanor White








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               Why Are India & China Tight-Lipped About UFOs?

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 07:12:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 07:12:58 -0500
Subject: Why Are India & China Tight-Lipped About UFOs?




Source: India Daily

http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/11-01m-04.asp

11-01-04

Why are Indian Space Research Organization (ISRO) and China
National Space Administration (CNSA) tight lipped about recent
encounters with UFOs?

Prem Hazarika
Special Correspondent


Indian sky has been the scene of numerous UFOs in recent days.
According to some of the Indian Space Research Organization
officials who are officially tight lipped there are lots of
excitement about this topic. Many are hinting that in 2012 there
will be an official landing in six different countries all over
the world. India is one of the six chosen. The UFOs are mainly
performing scouting missions to establish contacts with Indian
Government and military. India is being told on how to tackle
the nuclear, space technology and other advanced technologies.

India is definitely going to gain from these recent encounters.
One of the ISRO engineers recently spoke about India=92s most
advanced secret project on anti-gravity propulsion systems and
the fact that some scientists are in the process of studying
this advanced technology in a package form. When asked what he
really meant by =93package=94 form, his reply was readymade
technologies made easy for absorption and utilization instead of
invention.

In addition, Indian Air Force personnel also indicated some
interesting projects in Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, India=92s
premiere organization for avionic research, development and
production. Three of them were interesting on anti-gravity
propulsion and making crafts weightless. The stealth technology
project was also interesting =96 the mechanism of making flying
objects invisible real time.

It is true that ISRO engineers and technicians were in different
location of Himalayas and they are still doing something near
India China borders. It does not make sense that they are
preparing a spacecraft-launching site in Haimalayas. Then why
are they so eager to position themselves in Himalayas?

Interestingly Chinese Space Organization =96 CNSA (China National
Space Administration) has also undertaken similar activities on
the other side of Himalayas. Sources say they have undertaken
similar projects. And China is also one of the six nations where
such landings will take place in 2012.

For some reason, like USA and Russia (back then Soviet Union)
China is also backtracking on manned lunar exploration! In
Beijing, among some Government inner circles, there is a
profound rumor that China is being =93told=94 to abandon any manned
space journey above 100 miles from earth till 2012.


[UFO UpDates thanks Stuart Miller for the lead]








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                   Marketing Earth To Alien Civilizations

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 07:19:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 07:19:50 -0500
Subject: Marketing Earth To Alien Civilizations




Source: RedNova.Com

http://www.rednova.com/news/display/?id=99649

11-02-04


Marketing Earth To Alien Civilizations

It is sometimes said that the best form of advertising is
education. But what products would our global marketplace
tolerate at the borders of an encounter with another, perhaps
far different civilization? To get some perspective, an expert
entertains the question of how to advertise our presence to a
more universal demographic.

Astrobiology Magazine - Within the first month on Mars, the
rovers had captured Madison Avenue with fresh possiblities.
Earthlings had some new inspiration about what to do with robots
and wheels on another planet. Not just motivation, but drive.

But the advertisers had some tough choices. Driving on the red
planet wasn't going to be just for kids. In the public psyche,
were the rovers going to become a kind of next generation car -
the new Hummer, a less than sleek truck that in the hands of
Madison Avenue had been transformed from a heavy Army vehicle
into a symbol for sleek living?

Or were the rovers going to become like modern Magellans, the
role models behind the lone climber who in Marine recruiting
ads, can scale cliff faces? NASA had complicated all these
Madison Avenue calculations by choosing somewhat nautical brand
names - Spirit and Opportunity - neither of which exactly fit as
a flashy logo on a keychain. The campaign needed to be quick-to-
 the-punch, clear and concise. So soon after the rovers landed,
the first Mars ads took on the startling theme of an alien
carjacking. In the ad, the rovers were outfoxed by mischievous
martians who tipped their wheels, while mission control was
taking a soft drink break.

The winning image was a carjacking. Admittedly, marketing the
project had possibilities - and perhaps more importantly,
personality.

Personality may be exactly what makes anything alien seem more
familiar, like Mom and apple pie. In 1997, when the Sojourner
rover first took on Mars, the tiny car was the intrepid
challenger, a lone, slightly lonely, example of overcoming all
the odds. As Academy Award winning film-maker, James Cameron,
told Astrobiology Magazine, marketing the mothership may have
something to do with selling it against the odds: "The Sojourner
Rover became a character to millions of people, a protagonist in
a story. How long is it going to survive, could it perform its
mission? "

But Cameron went on to consider that marketing to the mothership
is a different campaign altogether, an alien venture: "I think
if we found intelligent communication, if the SETI Project said,
'Yeah, we definitely got an answer', I think people would react
differently to that. I think there'd be fear, there'd be
excitement. "

The question of how we might interact with another civilization
has historical and cultural examples to represent virtually
every side of the equation, both noble and humiliating. But few
have considered how our civilization might interact with another
one in the grand, universal marketplace. Astrobiology Magazine
asked an expert - Douglas Ryan, an executive at the prestigious
Chicago advertising firm, Young and Rubicam, about this broad
question: How to market to the mothership?

- - -

Astrobiology Magazine (AM): There is a line in the Carl Sagan
movie Contact, where Jodie Foster's character, Dr. Ellie
Arroway, tells her colleague to raise money in Hollywood,
because movies have been making so much money from aliens, it is
time for the movie industry to give back. Is the entertainment
interest in aliens a fad or a product of new film-making
technology only? Anything deeper to it than cultural
opportunism?

Douglas Ryan (DR): From the Native American manitou legends up
through little green men, our culture has always been fascinated
by the idea of unearthly life. As long as this fascination
continues, Hollywood will continue to use it to get us into
movie theaters. In our more primal existence, we cannot help but
dwell on the issue of sex. In our more philosophical existence,
we cannot help but dwell on the question of whether we are alone
in the universe. So I would venture that the likelihood of
Hollywood forgoing alien encounters as future material as
roughly equivalent to the likelihood of those same filmmakers
forgoing sex.

AM: There was much discussion about putting ads on the shuttle
and now the private SpaceShipOne. Would the space program become
like fielding NASCAR racing teams? Would it matter?

DR: While the standard history textbooks often try to enshrine
our human explorations in something more vaguely noble, the
truth is that most exploration can be explained in terms of a
search for commercial advantage. Some might say military
advantage was a greater driver, but those two were so closely
linked in the development of our civilization that it is hard to
separate them. Trade is what drove the early seaman to find
routes around the world. Spain did not underwrite Columbus for
the purpose of pure scientific advancement. If we were to speak
honestly, the U.S. space program was driven less by the
sentiments quoted in Kennedy's famous speech announcing the
mission to go to the moon, than it was on our desire to avoid
having the USSR claim extraterrestrial territories for their
own. In that spirit, allowing marketing ventures to be
associated with the space program would be consistent with
almost every large scale exploration ever undertaken. If the
spice industry could underwrite Vasco da Gama, why can't eBay
underwrite SpaceShipOne?

AM: From an advertiser point of view, are there calculations
made routinely about sponsoring risky enterprises? For instance,
a customer doesn't want its name associated with some kind of
Titanic event?

DR: Risk analysis is always part of the equation in evaluating
marketing sponsorships. In essence, it is no different than
buying TV advertising. Some advertisers have pulled out of ABC's
hit "Desperate Housewives" for fear of offending their consumers
with its dark humor. But the bigger problem for securing
marketing alliances could be on a less dramatic analysis of the
positive impact. How many people and what kind of people will
advertisers reach with the space program? From that perspective,
it's not clear the space program would be considered a
particularly attractive property.

AM: One of the reasons cited in the Presidential Space
Exploration Initiative ("Moon to Mars and Beyond") for going
into space was resource exploitation, mainly asteroid or lunar
mining. Some would say that resource exploitation (in the form
of the East India Company) was a central part of British
colonization to all parts of the globe, so the Sun never sat on
their influence. Is it a failure of space marketing not to have
identified an exploitable resource four decades after its
beginning?

DR: As ventures into space became more routine, there has been
increased questioning of why the program exists. Unfortunately,
this issue came to light after the latest shuttle tragedy. It is
not clear just what we have gotten from the space program. The
"Tang and Velcro" argument seems like small compensation for the
lives and billions of dollars spent in service of the space
program. It is reasonable to argue that in our modern economy,
intellectual property is an equally if not more viable resource
than lunar minerals. But even that argument is difficult to
establish. In fact, Dr. Austen Goolsbee, an economist at the
University of Chicago has done an analysis that suggests the
space program is a net drain on the productivity of U.S.
engineering resources. So the question of how we tangibly
benefit from the space program is likely to be asked more
forcefully in the future, and the "because it's there" response
is less likely to garner widespread public support.

AM: For imaginative purposes, suppose an alien civilization
contacts us and they have some rough equality, but different
technologies - something like a familiar trading partner. Is
this the optimal way to enter a contact scenario - where both
parties might see immediate benefits, and neither is in an
overlord position to the other?

DR: Absolutely. Consult your economics textbook for David
Ricardo's theory of comparative advantage. Also, the fact that
we have trouble managing overlord positions in our little world
would suggest the logistical challenges of doing so from another
part of the universe would be formidable.

AM: To speculate for a moment, so what's the technology that we
have that might be most valuable? In science fiction terms (or
conspiracy circles), they seem to want to breed with us.

DR: Biology is not my strong suit, but I would hazard a guess
that interbreeding with an extraterrestrial life form would be
many times more difficult than having a pig interbreed with a
fern. So what would we have? I don't really know, but I expect
it would relate to skills related to our adaptation to our
specific environment, e.g. food, chemical or drug production. We
are not likely to have more advanced technologies per se, but we
are likely to have different technologies based on who and where
we are.

AM: Are crop circles just another Nike swoosh?

DR: No, but just think how effective it would be if they were.
People have written movies and books about them. People go out
of their way to visit them. It is part of the cultural
vocabulary. Most consumer marketers would die for a logo as half
as effective as that.

Let me return to an earlier theme. Most human explorations can
be tied to the advancement, not of knowledge, but of commerce.
If some life form beyond earth were to pick up a communication
from us, odds are that it would be an ad. It is arguable that
the same situation would apply to an extraterrestrial
communication.

AM: If the aliens are contacting us for ad revenue, do you think
we are anywhere close to getting their core message?

DR: While we may not be getting their core message, we are
certainly falling right into a classic marketing strategy. Many
new products look to establish broad levels of awareness and
interest prior to communicating specific product or service
features. iPod ads said nothing about what iPods did, they just
showed dancing silhouettes that made people think they were
cool. As marketing hacks like to say, they got the buzz started.
It could be that the aliens have successfully pulled off the
greatest buzz campaign ever created. I can't wait to see what





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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Nov > Nov 4

                     Articles By William F. Hamilton III

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 07:26:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 07:26:46 -0500
Subject: Articles By William F. Hamilton III


Subscribers and readers may find the following articles
of interest:


ASTROGENESIS By William F. Hamilton III
http://www.geocities.com/xplorer2x/ASTROGENESIS.htm

The Intelligent Universe By William F. Hamilton III
http://www.geocities.com/xplorer2x/IU.htm

THE MULTIVERSE By William F. Hamilton III
http://www.geocities.com/xplorer2x/Multiverse.htm

THE CONTINUOUS CREATION PROCESS
By William F. Hamilton III
http://www.geocities.com/xplorer2x/creation.htm

SUPERLUMINAL INFOTONIC COMMUNICATIONS By
William F. Hamilton III
http://www.geocities.com/xplorer2x/Infotonic.htm







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   Nov > Nov 4

                    Re: Gen. Wesley Clark On UFOs - Chace

From: David Chace <davidwchace.nul>
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 04:41:28 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:37:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Gen. Wesley Clark On UFOs - Chace


>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:27:40 -0800
>Subject: Gen. Wesley Clark On UFOs

>During the 2003/2004 Democratic Presidential primaries,
>candidate Gen. Wesley Clark spoke of his personal belief that
>mankind would eventually achieve faster-than-light travel
>and explore space.

Clark's comments during those early days of the presidential
campaign had a very powerful impact on me. I immediately
thought, "Wouldn't it be great to have a president who shared my
basic beliefs about the possibility of faster than light travel
and humankind's destiny in the cosmos?" Indeed it would be nice
to have a president whose vision of the future was based in real
human experience rather than what some preacher may have told
him in church about bible prophecy.

And from Clark's full comments it was clear that he was not
na=EFve about the physics involved. He was NOT one of those people
who just wanted to throw out the special theory of relativity
for no good reason, nor was he ignorant of the implications of
special relativity. He mentioned that he had discussed and
argued the issue with physicists, so it was clear to me that he
was proceeding from a point of having a belief or faith in human
scientific and technological potential rather than merely being
ignorant about the physics. Indeed, he described this jokingly
as his "only faith-based initiative."

Stan Friedman often talks about fossilized physicists who are
stuck in the belief that extraterrestrial civilizations, even
those much older than ourselves, would find interstellar travel
just as difficult as we do today. The fossilized physicists,
however, base that belief more on their ignorance of the nature
of technological progress than on their knowledge of physics.

Clearly, being open to this possibility of faster than light
travel can make one more open to the possibility that some UFOs
are someone else's spacecraft. However, Clark knew that it was
not safe to discuss the subject of UFOs in his campaign (except
perhaps by dropping hints) if he wanted the support of one of
the two dominant parties. He was courageous enough just to
declare his optimism about our technological future. Too many
people in public life seem to consider beliefs about what
humanity may ultimately accomplish in the universe to be
politically irrelevant. They would prefer to leave those issues
to people's personal or religious beliefs if they even think of
them at all. Well, I think that if you are going to lead a
nation you need to have an idea about where you are leading it
to, and what it is that ultimately makes everything worthwhile.
The vision of humankind as a successful, starfaring species





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                         Re: Orb Study Site - Taylor

From: Ellis C Taylor <ellistayla.nul>
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 13:22:42 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:39:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Orb Study Site - Taylor


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 17:03:43 -0500
>Subject: Re: Orb Study Site

There is no doubt in my mind that there is far more to the orb
phenomena than dandruff, dust and optical illusions.

I think these pages may help to open some eyes and minds:

On my own site a photograph of several peculiar anomalies in a
2004 crop circle in Garsington, Oxfordshire England. The
photograph was analysed by Martin Keitel a respected figure in
crop circle research.

http://ellisctaylor.homestead.com/garsingtoncropformationphotoanalysis.html

I have many other photographs of peculiar anomalies taken on
both digital and 35mm film.

This website has some very intriguing examples though some, I
think, are probably dust etc

http://www.psychicinvestigators.net/index.html

An excellent article by Brian James on the orb phenomenon is on
his APRA site

http://www.apra.org.uk/

I have also seen some great photos taken by someone I know (a
photographer) whilst out walking with Jason Andrews in
Lincolnshire. Jason actually told him where and when to shoot
and afterwards was able to tell the photographer exactly what he
had photographed on each shot. In other words Jason was seeing
the phenomena before the camera. These photographs not only show
orbs in motion but there is also a misty figure. Jason's mum,
Ann Andrews, will be speaking in Nevada at the next conference.

Also Geoff Ambler of Contact International UFO Research has
taken some marvellous photos of very strange orbs and other
phenomena. Some might remember that his work was featured on the
front page of the much lamented UFO Reality magazine that hailed
from Glastonbury. Unfortunately I don't think his photos are
available on the web but there is a possibility they will be in
the future.


Best wishes

Ellis Taylor

www.ellisctaylor.com









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                         Re: Human Races - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:26:58 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:41:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Human Races - Balaskas


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 16:27:01 -0500
>Subject: Re: Human Races

>>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:03:13 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
>>Subject: Re: Human Races

><snip>

>>>When Indonesian archaeologists uncovered the remains of several
>>>ancient skeletons in a remote island cave, the discovery was
>>>hailed as introducing modern humans to an unfamiliar two-legged
>>>cousin: Homo floresiensis. Here were signs that a different
>>>species of human had evolved on an island in the Indian Ocean.

><snip>

>Why is it that these skeletons are a "new species", when pygmies
>and midgets aren't?


Hi Eleanor!

As I am not an authority on such matters, I did get much e-mail
from people who read my reply on this subject as well as some
timely e-mails by others who shared other better informed
comments on the discovery of this new human "species", Homo
Floresiensis. One of these other e-mails included a reference to
the web site below. Hope this helps.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2004/1028dwarf.asp

I am of the opinion that since that we know of only one planet
that harbours life - Earth - and there are known natural
mechanisms that are would have allowed these living organisms to
migrate to other worlds, all ET life we discover within our own
galaxy will prove to have been seeded over many years from our
own tiny pale blue planet.

I also suspect that we are as closely related to the many
humanoid type of ETs that are reported visiting our world as we
are to Homo Floresience. The physical similarities to us are just
too close to have been the result of independent evolution and
chance alone.

I would like to know your thoughts and the comments by others on
this list about humans and our place in the cosmos.


Nick Balaskas








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                           Re: Limboids - Reynolds

From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:29:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:44:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Limboids - Reynolds


>From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 22:37:58 +0000
>Subject: Re: Limboids

>>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 08:41:47 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Limboids

>>>From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 19:12:43 +0000
>>>Subject: Re: Limboids

>>>Any chance of clarifying "life" definitions?

>>You dog you, dragging me into a discussion about life.. what is
>>it? That's like asking for the nature of God... and there we
>>are... at the ultimate, existential question.

>Couldn't help myself - hoping for one of those wide-ranging
>UFOUpdates discussions with everyone having a shot - often
>throws up inspired/inspirational gems.

>Those questions of life/consciousness/intelligence nag a little,
>'cos I've seen POVs of at least two different groups.

>1) with a Voodoo-believing girl living a in Central American
>swamp (yes - really) and she allocated innate intelligence and
>self-consciousness to certain larger reptiles, like the old
>alligator who lived close by, but an "endowed" or loaned
>consciousness or intent to smaller cold-blooded animals. [which
>is why I normally woke up first and got rid of all toads, frogs,
>lizards and snakes from bedroom and verandah - because she
>opined it was a *sign* if she saw one first thing. But I always
>spoke politely to old alligator - from a good distance.]

>2) working in Europe with Nordics and noticing stone or wooden
>carvings in certain places that obviously rated respect. A
>Danish pal, when I asked about it, said "Well, officially these
>countries are christian, but as far as I'm concerned that was
>imposed at sword-point. We're really more inclined to the old
>ways, which give "life" and "intelligence" to rocks and trees,
>and their inhabitants - in the right places."

>And maybe both their instincts - if not their literal beliefs -
>would be more useful in the field than a soul-less `scientific'
>approach.

>I.e. wouldn't you be more likely to be in-tune with your
>surroundings - and your local wild-life?

>What d'you think?


Ray...

In a discussion with one of my media guys, about your previous
comments and those of Kyle King, we got intertwined with
Aristotle's theories about the soul. I tried to disabuse him of
the anima concept as it has little to do with the "limboid"
thesis, as I understand it.

We did get into the "life" of sub-atomic particles, which I
implied have a life as indicated by Heisenberg's "Uncertainty
Principle" - that is, when quantum artifacts are observed
(measured) they get goofy, and don't follow a pattern of
behavior which can be duplicated.

This mischievous behavior may be thought-related. Quantum
particles may know when someone is measuring (observing) them,
and "purposefully" acts outside any norm.

And the idea that "life forms" dormant for long periods of time,
being mistaken for dead (or lifeless), intrigues. Or elements
which move beyond perception so one can't know them.

The concepts of Pantheism and Panentheism address this somewhat,
but the "limboid" concept goes far beyond the evanescent aspects
of such life as delineated by the two Pans, into the tangible
elements perceived by the senses, which can be, I think,
measured in such a way as to determine if they have life
(sentient life) or not.

Does "dark matter" have life? Is it life? Is the Universe God?
Is God dead?

Well, I'm going far afield here, and need someone to rein me in,
with a clear, cogent overview of the "limboid" concept,
uncluttered by the detritus of hackneyed
philosophical/theological arguments -- only banal because they
have been debated to death, while "limboids" open the door to
innovative discussion...or not.


Rich Reynolds








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             Re: Why Are India & China Tight-Lipped About UFOs?

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:38:39 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 11:06:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Are India & China Tight-Lipped About UFOs?


>Source: India Daily

>http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/11-01m-04.asp

>11-01-04

>Why are Indian Space Research Organization (ISRO) and China
>National Space Administration (CNSA) tight lipped about recent
>encounters with UFOs?

>Prem Hazarika
>Special Correspondent

On the contrary, every person I've asked of Indian heritage are
everything except tight-lipped about UFOs.

From family members to friends they won't shut up about UFOs.

My first long duration conversation about UFOs with folks from
India happened way back in the 80's when I was at the WTC Twin
Towers. I took the day off to sight see and was waiting in line
at the elevator reading UFO Magazine I recall and there were two
Indian men and their kids in line behind me. I was thumbing
through the mag and they were jawin' it up a spell a might
powerful. Then one of them leaned forward and their conversation
stopped and the fellow in back said something and the fellow
staring at the mag said "Sidlee".

I asked him what he meant and he went on about their history and
religion and how these things weren't strange to them as they
were quite knowledgeable about them.

The same year I asked a cousin from India about UFOs and he went
on and on about how it was nothing new and how Earth was the
scene of several battle grounds of such craft. To them it was no
big deal, other than they hoped it wouldn't happen again, as
according to their folklore the last big battle was one mean
mammy-jammer.

To this very day I get a kick out of showing a Hindu or
Pakistani friend a UFO mag and watch them go into a tirade. Lots
of what, they say, uncannily goes hand-in-hand with present day
UFO stories.

What's scary is when I update them on recent UFO history they
get that glazed look in their eyes and get a mite unravelled.

Just take a few UFO mags and visit some folks from India. You'll
be in for quite a suprise. Same goes for Armenians, Orthodox
Jews and Muslims and old-timer Native Americans.


Best,

Greg








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                          Re: Human Races - Shough

From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul>
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 16:12:02 -0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 11:52:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Human Races - Shough


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 16:27:01 -0500
>Subject: Re: Human Races

>>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:03:13 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
>>Subject: Re: Human Races

><snip>

>>>When Indonesian archaeologists uncovered the remains of several
>>>ancient skeletons in a remote island cave, the discovery was
>>>hailed as introducing modern humans to an unfamiliar two-legged
>>>cousin: Homo floresiensis. Here were signs that a different
>>>species of human had evolved on an island in the Indian Ocean.

><snip>

>Why is it that these skeletons are a "new species", when pygmies
>and midgets aren't?

Hello Eleanor

As I understand it, a species is defined normally by a group
that has a stable form whilst breeding within itself. Dogs and
giraffes do not (typically, I believe!) breed with one another,
and there is no stable form of long-necked yellow spotted
canine.

In terms of the genus Homo there is at present believed
to be only one extant species - Sapiens - but there have been
others in the distant past, notably Erectus, and the argument
for defining Floresiensis as a new species seems to be that it
must have evolved from Homo Erectus, either before or coincident
with the emergence of Homo Sapiens, and become isolated.

It is thus not a previous form of Homo Sapiens but a parallel
twig in the shrub of evolution. Maybe if an extant group is
discovered in a jungle somewhere (not impossible apparently)
this can actually be tested.


Best Martin Shough







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                          Re: Human Races - Miller

From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 16:22:23 +0000 (GMT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 11:54:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Human Races - Miller


>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:03:13 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
>Subject: Re: Human Races


>>Source: The Guardian - UK


>http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/science/story/0,12996,1340665,00.html

>>11-01-04

>>Human Races

>>Leader
>>Monday November 1, 2004
>>The Guardian

<snip>

>On the contrary, this is great news for the thinking person
>and a vindication of the Bible which describes tall and short
>humans co-existing in the distant past as there are now. The
>very short Pgymies and the very tall Bushmen who occupy the
>same geographic region certainly have had to adapt to the
>same environment but Darwin's and Wallace's evolutionary
>cannot explain this simple present day fact.

>If it can be established that human/ET hybrids are a reality
>(as mentioned in an overlooked ET document - The Bible - and
>written about by some respected UFO abduction researchers)
>then humans and these alien human-like creatures are very
>closely related biologically and are by definition one
>species. If we were separated millions or billions of years
>ago, this would be an excellent example that proves Darwin
>and Wallace were wrong. If humans and ETs have no biological
>relationship at all, then this would be strong evidence of a
>Supreme Creator or God since the "brushstrokes" of a common
>artist would then be apparent and obvious to all.


Hi Nick,

You may be interested in the following. It is a brief extract
from a forthcoming interview in the next issue of UFO Review
(issue 6 - publication to be announced shortly) with, as far as
I'm concerned, a living god, namley Professor Chandra
Wickramasinghe. We were, naturally, talking about his life's
work, Panspermia.


SM: Is there anything that says in this that as we�ve evolved as
we have here, that intelligent Life elsewhere would be similar
to us or is there a chance it could be very, very different?

CW: I think on the basis of this theory, Life everywhere in the
universe is a connected process. Our Life is connected to the
most distant parts of the cosmos, so whilst Life in a distant
galaxy millions of light years away can be different from ours,
it will only be different in the way that an elephant is
different from a giraffe. The same genetic programmes that we
have here on the Earth would be distributed everywhere.

SM: Do you accept the theory of Gaia?

CW: Yes, I do. I�m a great believer and supporter of Lovelock�s
Gaia where the whole planet is an interconnected ecology. I
would go further than that. I would say that the whole universe
has to be regarded as a Gaia entity. There�s a connectedness
that goes all the way from the earth to the furthest reaches of
the cosmos.

SM: This leads on to more speculation. Do you regard this as
coincidental or arranged? Is it too neat to be coincidental?

CW: I have often worried about it, I�ve wondered about it. I
think if once you go along that route, you�ve got to accept the
possibility that the entire range of living systems in the
entire universe is an artificial construct of a creator.

SM: Is that a difficult theory to take on board?

CW: It is a difficult theory to take onboard in the context of
modern science. I myself think one cannot rule out that
possibility on logical grounds. We have human biochemists
nowadays who can do a lot of genetic manipulation. We can splice
genes from a bacterium to a fish and so on. We can even work out
the consequences of such a splicing. So to envisage a cosmic
intelligence that was able to work out all the consequences of
all the possible slicing of genes is not entirely beyond the
realms of logic.

SM: That would be directed Panspermia?

CW: That would be directed Panspermia directed across the cosmic
scene, yes.


Stuart Miller








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                             Re: Limboids - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:57:22 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 05:41:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Limboids - King


>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:29:18 -0500
>Subject: Re: Limboids

<snip>

>Ray...

>In a discussion with one of my media guys, about your previous
>comments and those of Kyle King, we got intertwined with
>Aristotle's theories about the soul. I tried to disabuse him of
>the anima concept as it has little to do with the "limboid"
>thesis, as I understand it.

>We did get into the "life" of sub-atomic particles, which I
>implied have a life as indicated by Heisenberg's "Uncertainty
>Principle" - that is, when quantum artifacts are observed
>(measured) they get goofy, and don't follow a pattern of
>behavior which can be duplicated.

>This mischievous behavior may be thought-related. Quantum
>particles may know when someone is measuring (observing) them,
>and "purposefully" acts outside any norm.

>And the idea that "life forms" dormant for long periods of time,
>being mistaken for dead (or lifeless), intrigues. Or elements
>which move beyond perception so one can't know them.

>The concepts of Pantheism and Panentheism address this somewhat,
>but the "limboid" concept goes far beyond the evanescent aspects
>of such life as delineated by the two Pans, into the tangible
>elements perceived by the senses, which can be, I think,
>measured in such a way as to determine if they have life
>(sentient life) or not.

>Does "dark matter" have life? Is it life? Is the Universe God?
>Is God dead?

>Well, I'm going far afield here, and need someone to rein me in,
>with a clear, cogent overview of the "limboid" concept,
>uncluttered by the detritus of hackneyed
>philosophical/theological arguments -- only banal because they
>have been debated to death, while "limboids" open the door to
>innovative discussion... or not.


Hi Rich,

You raise an intriguing point with the Uncertainty Principle.
Where I had always thought of the phenomenon of observation
affecting the observed was a purely mechanical thing, due to
reflecting or absorbing radiated particles in the "observation"
process.

You note an alternative which I had not considered, but which is
compelling... if the observed particles or process are _aware_
of the observer, then the unusual results could represent an
agenda.

As we humans often hide advances in technology from other
nations for security reasons, perhaps quantum particles are
protective of their true natures, and _sabotage_ our attempts at
detection and understanding for their perceived security. If
they know when they are being observed, their anomalous or
unexpected behavior is in line with what we humans might exhibit
under similar circumstances.

Combining this with Quantum entanglement, it is obvious that
there are processes which operate at faster than light speed,
and through no obvious or apparent physical mechanism. In this
light, could it be that entangled particles are simply _aware_
of one another, and act accordingly regardless of distance or
local forces? This would indicate a method of communication
which transcends any current technology, and which in fact
requires no complex transmit or receive equipment. This supports
the notion that the universe itself is intertwined on a quantum
level, and that the dark matter could well be a medium for
instantaneous thought transfer, or even material transfer, as in
the case of entangled particles.

If the universe is so intertwined, would it not constitute a
life form itself? We define life in terms of our own traits and
those of what we see around us. Could life be so ubiquitous that
we can't see the forest for the trees?

The answers to these questions would advance many fields...
communication, UFOs, physics, medicine (imagine being able to
entangle cancer cells on a molecular level and deactivate them
with no surgery), space travel, free energy, and local
transportation among many others.

Excellent post!


Kyle








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                   NWSURC Recent Sighting Reports 10-31-04

From: Barb Campbell <nwsurc.nul>
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:59:38 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 05:48:00 -0500
Subject: NWSURC Recent Sighting Reports 10-31-04


Northwest Saskatchewan UFO Research Center (NWSURC)

Recent Sighting Reports - Oct. 31, 2004


Bright Red Craft Witnessed At Close Range

Date: between 1953 and 1954
Time: unknown (daylight hours)
Location: near old cemetery, Maidstone
Witnesses: 1


The following is a verbal report told by the witness to Barb in
the late afternoon of Sunday, October 31, 2004:

It was sometime between 1953 and 1954, I was about 5 years old.
I was with my mother at the time and we were down by the old
cemetery area. I saw a strange craft flying really low to the
ground.

It flew above the trees then swooped down along the ground. I
don't think it knew I was there. I mean, I could have hit it
with a rock,it was that close!

I turned around quick and said "Hey mom. Did you see that?!" and
when I turned back around it was gone! Just like that. It had no
where to go. It just vanished.

She never did see it. But I will never forget it.

I have kept a drawing of it, somewhere in my things but don't
know where it is right now. I will draw it out for you. It's
something I will not forget.

(Witness draws a diagram - see below)

The craft was bright red and it had a black stripe in the middle
of it.

Question: Could you recall the size of the craft? How large was
it?

That I couldn't remember.

Question: Did the craft make any sound?

No.

Thank you to the witness

Diagram can be viewed at:

http://ca.geocities.com/nwsurc/ssr-04-01.htm

---

Cyclinder Craft Seen in Maidstone

Date: August 2003
Time: unknown (daylight hours)
Location: Maidstone
Witnesses: 1


The following is a verbal report told by the witness to Barb in
the late afternoon of Sunday, October 31, 2004:

It was down at the area, we all call the 'quonset'.

I saw a cyclinder shaped object traveling across the sky, above
the quonset. It was travelling between 400 - 500 miles per hour
and was about an eighth of a mile away.

I remember seeing a hatch or window on the side. And thought to
myself, how odd that something shaped like this, could fly. It
was almost like a missile.

Thank you to the witness

Diagram can be viewed at:

http://ca.geocities.com/nwsurc/ssr-04-02.htm

---

Sphere With Four Legs Seen Over Field

Date: Unknown
Time: unknown (daylight hours)
Location: Maidstone
Witnesses: 1


The following is a verbal report told by the witness to Barb in
the late afternoon of Sunday, October 31, 2004:

I remember a time when I had seen a huge sphere slowly gliding
close the ground, just over here.

(Points to a location of a field, northeast of the town of
Maidstone)

I thought to myself that perhaps it could be a weather balloon
but hadn't noticed anything dangling from underneath it, or
above it. I do remember that it had four legs along the bottom
of it.

It just sort of travelled along and then began to ascend.  It
was so light (color) that it just sort of melted into the clouds
and vanished.


(Witness drew diagram. See:

http://ca.geocities.com/nwsurc/ssr-04- 03.htm

Thank you to the witness

Diagram can be viewed at:


---

Rainbow Shaped Craft Seen Over Farm

Date: Unknown
Time: around 3am
Location: Maidstone
Witnesses: 1


The following is a verbal report told by the witness to Barb in
the late afternoon of Sunday, October 31, 2004:

I was outside one night around 3am in the morning, here at my
farm, when I happened to look up and see some lights. They sort
of looked like headlights, at first.

Then I noticed something very odd. There was movement between
those lights. And it was angling to one side and sort of
spinning and then it would change to the opposite angle and
spin.

This rainbow shaped object was huge and was just hovering low in
the sky. I was standing here in my yard and I could see it just
above the trees across the yard there. I'd say it was about
three quarters of a mile away.

I was so scared, that I could hardly move. But I finally did and
so I ran inside the house to fetch my rifle.

I came back out and it was still there.

The area where it hovered was where a couple of horses had been
found mutilated not long before. I was terrified.

The whole thing lasted about 10 to 15 minutes then it was gone.


(Witness drew diagram. See:

http://ca.geocities.com/nwsurc/ssr-04-04.htm


Thank you to the witness.

---

Barb's note: I'm currently investigating the horse mutilation
incident. A possible time frame may be available as a result.
Stay tuned for my update on this report.


Barb Campbell, NWSURC
Box 263
Maidstone Saskatchewan S0M 1M0
Ph:(306)893-4009
Northwest Saskatchewan UFO Research Center (NWSURC)
E-mail: nwsurc.nul
Web: http://ca.geocities.com/nwsurc







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                  NWSURC Recent Sighting Reports - 11-03-04

From: Barb Campbell <nwsurc.nul>
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:02:01 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 05:51:10 -0500
Subject: NWSURC Recent Sighting Reports - 11-03-04


Northwest Saskatchewan UFO Research Center (NWSURC)

Recent Sighting Reports - November 3, 2004


Update on Rainbow Shaped Craft Seen Over Farm: further talks
with the witness revealed sighting to have occured around 1994.
This report is under investigation by NWSURC and can be viewed
at:

http://ca.geocities.com/nwsurc/ssr-04-04.htm

---

Yellow Sphere Changes Its Appearance

Date: October 30, 2004
Time: 14:10
Duration: 8-10 minutes
Location: Saskatoon
Witnesses: 2

Report received via online form. Witness granted permission to
release name.

Description of sighting: My son called me back into the yard to
show me a yellow ball in the sky.We watched it cross the sky
rather quickly then it stopped. It seemed to stay in one place
for a few min's then it went up vertically. I saw it pass
through wispy clouds. I also saw birds flying in front of it.

It seemed to change colour to orange and change shape to a
cylindrical shape and back to a spherical a few times. Then we
lost sight of it.

Beata Van Berkom

Further details to report as follows:

Direction object was first seen: southeast, northeast

Direction object was last seen: northeast

Beata is absolutey certain of above directions and is familar
with location of sighting.

Beata reported this sighting to: spouse, family and friends

Characteristics: object changed color, (description revealed
object changed shape), hovered and ascended vertically,
(description revealed birds were seen flying infront of it.)

Weather conditions: calm and sunny


NWSURC thanks Beata for her sighting report!


---

Brilliant Light Seen Low In Sky

Date: November 1, 2004
Time: 5:30pm
Location: Maymont, around
Objects: 1
Witnesses: 3
 Report received via e-mail

Description of sighting: A brilliant light low in the sky,
seemed not to be moving, watched it for several miles along
highway 26 we were headed north from Saskatoon to North
Battleford, the light was to our right, watched with misbelief,
wondering what it could be, my father got the camera out and
ready to take a picture when it disappeared, instantly, like
they shut off the lights, nothing left in the sky we looked for
miles to find some sort of object, jet stream and there was
absolutely nothing.

I thought when and if I seen a UFO It would be very scary and
disturbing - Not the case, I, along with my parents were very
happy. I am 38 years of age, my parents are both 75.

Q: What color was the light? And did the color seem to change at
all?

A: The lights were very bright - same color as headlights would
be - but much more brilliant

Q: Would you say the light was smaller or larger than a star
would look in the sky?

A: The light was definitely way larger than any star

Q: Was the light flashing, blinking, twinkling or changing
appearance at all?

A: Maybe a little twinkling

Q: How low in the sky was the light? Was it on the horizon,
closer to the earth or above the horizon?

A: Above the horizon

Q: Did the light seem to be quite some distance away? Or did it
appear to be closer?

A: Closer

Q: Could you describe the conditions at the time of the
sighting? Was the sky clear? How about clouds? Were you able to
see stars in the sky around the light at all? Was it getting
dark by that time?

A: It was at 5:30 - no stars visible - a few clouds in the far
distance - the sky had a sort of pink tone of the setting sun

Q: The light was seen for several miles. Are you able to
estimate how much time that was? 10 minutes? More or less?

A: At least 5 miles

Thank you to the witness.

Special thanks to Brian Vike, HBCC UFO Research for refering
witness to NWSURC

---

Barb Campbell, NWSURC
Box 263
Maidstone SK S0M 1M0
Ph:(306)893-4009
Northwest Saskatchewan UFO Research Center (NWSURC)
E-mail: nwsurc.nul
Web: http://ca.geocities.com/nwsurc








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                    Second UFO Investigator Joins NWSURC

From: Barb Campbell <nwsurc.nul>
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:05:52 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 05:53:51 -0500
Subject: Second UFO Investigator Joins NWSURC


New Investigator On The Scene

Barb welcomes independent UFO investigator Dennis Eklund to
NWSURC.

Mr Eklund brings over 5 years experience in the field; having
served as former CCCRN co-ordinator for Saskatchewan. He
currently lives in Saskatoon and will prove to be a valuable
asset.

---

(Changes to "About" NWSURC)

Updated

NWSURC was formed by local Maidstone resident Barb Campbell,
October 21, 2004; out of the necessity of having a center which
could collect, research and investigate UFO sighting reports
within the province of Saskatchewan. The UFO Center is operated
from Mrs Campbell's home office and is nonprofit.

NWSURC began with Barb as the sole UFO investigator, then on
November 2, 2004, Dennis Eklund of Saskatoon joined forces to
offer his services as a UFO investigator also.

It is very possible that NWSURC will someday become an actual
group. A team of UFO investigators, who will volunteer their
time and services.

NWSURC will accept up to a maximum of three more UFO
investigators and will announce group status, when a total of 4
have been reached.

The office of NWSURC will collect sighting reports from within
Saskatchewan and will be compiling those reports into a database
on NWSURC's web site. When an onsite investigation is required
to be carried out, Barb will contact either the team or closet
available NWSURC UFO investigator.

NWSURC will collaborate with other UFO investigators from across
Canada and around the world, and will also include working with
Beata Van Berkom and Lois Baille, of Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network (CCCRN) and Fern Belzil, famous cattle
mutilation investigator from St. Paul, Alberta.

Stay tuned for further details on what's happening with NWSURC.


Barb Campbell, NWSURC
Box 263
Maidstone SK S0M 1M0
Ph:(306)893-4009
Northwest Saskatchewan UFO Research Center (NWSURC)
E-mail: nwsurc.nul
Web: http://ca.geocities.com/nwsurc








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                         Re: Gemini 11 UFO? - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:12:58 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 05:55:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Gemini 11 UFO? - Sparks


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:03:58 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
>Subject: Gemini 11 UFO?

>I was looking at Bruce Maccabee's web site:

http://brumac.8k.com/Gemini_11/GEMINI_11.html

>I wanted to know if anyone knew where the data was obtained that
>conclusively showed the orientation of the Gemini capsule.

I got the precise orientation angle data from NASA JSC in the
70's while it was still available and hadn't been destroyed like
so much of the manned spacecraft tracking, orbital, and event
data has been trashed.

>Also, reading the Gemini 11 transcript shows a trash dump at
>about 2.5 hours earlier with an unknown departure velocity.

>During Gemini 12, they watched trash bags go in the distance and
>it took 3-4 orbits to disappear.

http://www.project1947.com/shg/condon/s3chap06.html#s8

>Surely there is more than a remote chance that the Gemini 11
>UFOs being the trash bags? It all seems to hinge on deduction of
>UFO orbit inclination based on the Gemini capsule orientation. I
>agree that the trash could not have plane changed nor did the
>Gemini capsule, although early before the UFO photos, the
>transcript shows them expermineting with the attitude thrusters.

I've already explained the GT-11 case a frw years back after
having listed it as an Unknown for many years. Can't go into it
right now.








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                    Re: Gen. Wesley Clark On UFOs - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:17:05 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 05:58:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Gen. Wesley Clark On UFOs - King


>From: David Chace <davidwchace.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 04:41:28 -0800
>Subject: Re: Gen. Wesley Clark On UFOs

>>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:27:40 -0800
>>Subject: Gen. Wesley Clark On UFOs

>>During the 2003/2004 Democratic Presidential primaries,
>>candidate Gen. Wesley Clark spoke of his personal belief that
>>mankind would eventually achieve faster-than-light travel
>>and explore space.

>Clark's comments during those early days of the presidential
>campaign had a very powerful impact on me. I immediately
>thought, "Wouldn't it be great to have a president who shared my
>basic beliefs about the possibility of faster than light travel
>and humankind's destiny in the cosmos?" Indeed it would be nice
>to have a president whose vision of the future was based in real
>human experience rather than what some preacher may have told
>him in church about bible prophecy.

>And from Clark's full comments it was clear that he was not
>na=EFve about the physics involved. He was NOT one of those people
>who just wanted to throw out the special theory of relativity
>for no good reason, nor was he ignorant of the implications of
>special relativity. He mentioned that he had discussed and
>argued the issue with physicists, so it was clear to me that he
>was proceeding from a point of having a belief or faith in human
>scientific and technological potential rather than merely being
>ignorant about the physics. Indeed, he described this jokingly
>as his "only faith-based initiative."

>Stan Friedman often talks about fossilized physicists who are
>stuck in the belief that extraterrestrial civilizations, even
>those much older than ourselves, would find interstellar travel
>just as difficult as we do today. The fossilized physicists,
>however, base that belief more on their ignorance of the nature
>of technological progress than on their knowledge of physics.

>Clearly, being open to this possibility of faster than light
>travel can make one more open to the possibility that some UFOs
>are someone else's spacecraft. However, Clark knew that it was
>not safe to discuss the subject of UFOs in his campaign (except
>perhaps by dropping hints) if he wanted the support of one of
>the two dominant parties. He was courageous enough just to
>declare his optimism about our technological future. Too many
>people in public life seem to consider beliefs about what
>humanity may ultimately accomplish in the universe to be
>politically irrelevant. They would prefer to leave those issues
>to people's personal or religious beliefs if they even think of
>them at all. Well, I think that if you are going to lead a
>nation you need to have an idea about where you are leading it
>to, and what it is that ultimately makes everything worthwhile.
>The vision of humankind as a successful, starfaring species
>certainly is a vision that I would want my president to share.


Hi David,

Unfortunately, as of Nov. 2, 2004, 51% of voters think that the
best guy for the job is a guy who says he is doing _God's_ work,
and who believes that abortion is murder but executions and war
are justice, and who believes that people who live in the
"reality- based" community are just pessimists, and who believes
that his _gut_ is a better litmus test for what should be done
than the advice of counsel, and who believes that America's
definition of freedom is a gift from God that should be forced
on any country that does not agree (no matter the human toll),
and that his religions definition of marriage should be the only
one.

Do you think this administration has any interest in announcing
life on Mars? Do you think this administration would even think
of releasing or declassifying UFO data, if it exists?

Do you really think this administration intends to send men to
Mars, while cutting taxes, fighting multi-front wars, and still
balancing the budget?

You may be right, but you are in the apparent minority, and
likely an endangered species... in the US anyway. These are the
"interesting times" of which the old Chinese proverb speaks,
methinks.


Regards,

Kyle








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                      Audio History of Ufology Project

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:25:19 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 06:02:08 -0500
Subject: Audio History of Ufology Project


Greetings to Fellow Listarians,

Cops & Saucers: Law Enforcement and UFOs - 1957 to 1981 will be
the last compilation offered this year. I need to spend time
getting the back-log of recordings preserved and that's going to
take a few months.

Don't forget to get your compilations for Christmas stocking
stuffers for that Ufologist in your life - or for yourself <g> -
while I still have supplies available. Once I go into
preservation mode I won't have time to make copies, so supplies
at this time are very limited.

EBK has posted animated .GIFs of compilation titles on the UFO
UpDates front page and the SDI page. Thanks Errol!!

For you audiophiles in the crowd, please join Errol and I on
Strange Days... Indeed, this Saturday for some fun audio-clips!

Thank you to all who support the Audio History of Ufology
Project!


Best Always,

Wendy Connors
www.fadeddiscs.com








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                           Re: Human Races - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 17:01:16 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 06:06:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Human Races - White


>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:26:58 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
>Subject: Re: Human Races

<snip>

>I would like to know your thoughts and the comments by others on
>this List about humans and our place in the cosmos.

>Nick Balaskas

I'm guessing we're just another 'intelligent' species, out of
probably millions universe-wide. I'm also guessing we are partly
the product of natural processes, and partly the result of
tinkering by visiting ETs.

It would not be a surprise to me if we were 'planted' here by
some superior species a long time ago.

I would bet that the symmetrical head/spine/legs-wings-or- fins
pattern we see in all Earth's living creatures (where
substantial mobility is required) is the biological template for
the entire material ('our dimension') universe.

And I'm convinced that all creatures, even plants, have some
sort of indwelling soul. Near death experience reports make it
plain pets do. The First Nations ("Indian") people believe all
objects have souls. If that turned out to be true, that would
not surprise me.


Eleanor White








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                     Re: Time Running/Run Out? - Freeman

From: Kelly Freeman <Khfflsciufo.nul>
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 18:32:43 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 06:16:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Time Running/Run Out? - Freeman


>From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 13:59:56 +0000
>Subject: Time Running Out?

>Einstein Podolsky & Rosen set up an experiment aimed at
>clarifying 'quantum mystery' of entanglement. But it didn't. So
>Bell, a Scot, worked out the theoretical framework needed for
>verification or otherwise, and Aspect (French) later did the
>actual experiments.

>Maybe reluctantly Einstein said "It is possible that there exist
>emanations that are still unknown to us. Do you remember how
>electrical currents and unseen waves were laughed at?"


Hello Ray, EBK and List,

In case there are those who are not familiar with the phenomenon
of the Hundredth Monkey, I thought it would be appropriate to
relay the story as told by Ken Keyes, Jr. from his book, The
Hundredth Monkey. BTW, the book is not copyrighted.


"The Japanese monkey, Macaca fuscata, has been observed in the
wild for a period of over 30 years. In 1952, on the island of
Koshima, scientists were providing monkeys with sweet potatoes
dropped in the sand. The monkeys liked the taste of the raw
sweet potatoes, but they found the dirt unpleasant.

An 18-month old female named Imo found she could solve the
problem by washing the potatoes in a nearby stream. She taught
this trick to her mother. Her playmates also learned this new
way and they taught their mothers, too.

This cultural innovation was gradually picked up by various
monkeys before the eyes of the scientists. Between 1952 and
1958, all the young monkeys learned to wash the sandy sweet
potatoes to make them more palatable. Only the adults kept
eating the dirty sweet potatoes.

Then something startling took place. In the autumn of 1958, a
certain number of Koshima monkeys were washing sweet potatoes -
 the exact number is not known. Let us suppose that when the sun
rose one morning there were 99 monkeys on Koshima Island who had
learned to wash their sweet potatoes. Then it happened!

By that evening almost everyone in the tribe was washing sweet
potatoes before eating them. The added energy of this hundredth
monkey somehow created an ideological breakthrough!

But notice. The most surprising thing observed by these
scientists was that the habit of washing sweet potatoes then
spontaneously jumped over the sea. Colonies of monkeys on other
islands and the mainland troop of monkeys at Takasakiyama began
washing their sweet potatoes!....."


The implications are enormous. :)


Kelly









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                        Re: Time Running Out? - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 14:33:12 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 07:28:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Time Running Out? - King


>From: Kelly Freeman <Khfflsciufo.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 18:32:43 EST
>Subject: Re: Time Running Out?

>>From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 13:59:56 +0000
>>Subject: Time Running Out?

>>Einstein Podolsky & Rosen set up an experiment aimed at
>>clarifying 'quantum mystery' of entanglement. But it didn't. So
>>Bell, a Scot, worked out the theoretical framework needed for
>>verification or otherwise, and Aspect (French) later did the
>>actual experiments.

>>Maybe reluctantly Einstein said "It is possible that there exist
>>emanations that are still unknown to us. Do you remember how
>>electrical currents and unseen waves were laughed at?"

<snip>

>But notice. The most surprising thing observed by these
>scientists was that the habit of washing sweet potatoes then
>spontaneously jumped over the sea. Colonies of monkeys on other
>islands and the mainland troop of monkeys at Takasakiyama began
>washing their sweet potatoes!....."

>The implications are enormous. :)


Hi Kelly,

What an awesome observation. It would certainly begin to explain
the ubiquitous creation stories found throughout the world.
Perhaps pyramid building, agriculture, writing, language,
mummification etc. are all examples of this phenomenon. It would
also seem to support the notion that evolution is less a gradual
process and more abrupt at times.

Excellent post. I hope I can find a copy of the book.


Best Regards,

Kyle







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                   Alien Encounter In Bloomington Indiana

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO Research <hbccufo.nul>
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 20:50:44 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 07:54:53 -0500
Subject: Alien Encounter In Bloomington Indiana


An Alien Encounter In Bloomington Indiana - The John Tosti Story

Special Report

By Brian Vike
Director of HBCC UFO Research
http://www.hbccufo.com

All video clips and photos can be viewed at:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D2037

As Ufologists we hear many stories of unusual encounters and
sightings of exotic crafts flying through our day and night
skies. Every once in a while we come across a case that truly
defies explanation. This is one of those cases I am writing
about now. I was contacted recently and was sent a couple of
photos of something unusual. At least for now it remains
unexplained. At first the conversation started over the object
itself but what I didn't realize was, that there was a lot more
to come.

This story comes from a man by the name of John Tosti who
resides in the southern part of Bloomington, Indiana on acreage
in a rural setting and who has lived in the area for many years.
Back in his younger days he was an avid hunter and enjoyed being
in the outdoors. John would leave his home roughly around 4:00
to 5:00 a.m., before the sun had risen so he could get to the
back of his property in hopes of spotting game. One day as he
made ready to head out, John walked onto his front porch and
quickly noticed three bright spherical shaped lights which
appeared to be floating above the top of the trees.

One of the lights travelled to the west. This first light wasn't
moving erratically and was flying along rather slowly. The color
of the light was blue. The light at arms length was
approximately the size of a quarter and the other two lights the
size of a dime. These two were green and red and were moving
erratically around the blue light in a figure eight pattern.
They were slightly smaller than the blue lights. The objects
were low enough in altitude that they cast their light onto the
trees. An estimate of the distance away from the witness would
have placed the lights at around 100 yards away from him. John
said he watched them move along slowly for approximately three
to four minutes before they disappeared. He stood watching and
was totally baffled at the strange sight. John explained he had
never observed anything like this before. He said that he has
seen all types of different aircraft and helicopters and knows
what they sound and look like. These lights made no sound
whatsoever.

He eventually made his way back home. He woke up his fianc=E9e to
tell her what he had just witnessed. Still half asleep John's
fianc=E9e listened with a puzzled look on her face as she didn't
understand what he'd seen. He went into more detail about the
sighting and took her outside in the cool early morning. He
pointed in the direction where he saw the lights. They both
stood outside discussing it for a few minutes and eventually she
went back inside and back to bed. John sat down on the couch to
reflect on what he just had witnessed.

Later that day John talked with a couple of co-workers at the
construction site about different things. He made arrangements
with his close friend Jim to go out hunting the next day.

John woke up early the next morning ready for the days hunt. His
friend Jim pulled up at approximately 4:00 - 4:30 a.m. Both men
sat outside pulling on their gear and getting things prepared
for the hike to the back of the property. Once again John looked
skywards and was surprised to see the same lights were back in
the same area performing the same maneuvers. Jim sat there
observing, not saying much at all, then finally he turned to
John and asked, "what the heck is that ?"

John told his friend that he had no idea what these objects
were. He explained he had witnessed the very same thing a day
earlier. They both sat watching and looking at each other from
time to time and finally shrugged their shoulders and carried on
with what they had planned for the morning. Both turned on their
flashlights and headed off towards the back end of the property.

Both men were approximately mid-way through the property when
they came to a small creek which runs along the side of a hill.
John was the first to notice an orange/red glowing ball in the
distance in a forested area in the gully. Knowing there was
nothing back there to cause this light source he thought it
might have been the setting moon, as this was the first thought
that came to his mind. The men continued walking, went up the
hill and towards the bright colored ball of light which now they
saw was sitting in the gully. From their position on the hill
all of a sudden they saw the ball of light blink out. Now the
two hunters stood baffled, amazed, and nervous at what they both
had just seen.

As they looked toward the area where they saw the ball of light
there appeared two single lights. John's first thoughts were
that a couple of hunters were wearing a strap-on light band
around their heads, or miners with the light on their hard hats.
But two figures were down in the gully where the orange light
was. They were coming in the direction of John and Jim. Thinking
they may be hunters and not wanting to be mistaken for a wild
animal and being shot at, John told his friend Jim to get behind
one of the larger trees which was close to them. Both men laid
down on the ground staying silent and keeping out of sight from
the figures that were approaching their location. John would
peek around the tree to see if the figures were still heading in
their direction as they were able to hear the dry leaves
crackling and small branches snapping which indicated the two
unknowns were getting closer by the second. John guessed the
figures may have been 30 yards away at this point. He turned and
whispered to Jim telling him again to be very quiet as these
unknowns were getting very close and were heading straight for
the two men. Just as John finished speaking to his friend he
peered around the tree once more and the two figures were
standing right over top of them.

The approximately six foot tall figures came around the tree and
shone their lights down on the two men. John thought, "who are
these men, what are they doing on private property and what do
they want?" He was frightened! John was blinded for a moment
from the light. The next thing he knew, it was daytime. John
said when he became aware of his surroundings he was
approximately fifty feet away from where they were hiding. Both
of their guns were gone. They were nowhere to be seen. Jim was
approximately 50 yards away from John, across the creek in a
brier patch, waving to him.

John had a sharp pain in his nasal passage and a bloody nose
with blood trickling from his left nostril. He told me it felt
as if it was a dream because the two men had just been walking
through the area in the darkness only to witness a bright
glowing object and the two figures, then all of a sudden it is
daylight. He was really confused about what had taken place.

The fellows dazed, and confused, started looking around for
their guns. John noticed an unusual pile of leaves and went to
investigate. Under the leaves were the men's guns. He said they
had been covered over by something, or someone. The fellows
gathered up their gear and headed back home. When they got to
the barn on John's property they removed the items they had
taken out with them. Jim spoke up and said,"I don't know what
happened to you and I, but I don't want to discuss this ever
again." John told Jim, "don't worry about me talking about it as
I would not even know what to tell someone." John said "I don't
know what took place!"

John told me that he definitely had a missing time event; how
much time the two men lost, no one could determine due to them
still feeling confused and not looking at their watches. Like
John said, he never had given much thought about UFOs, Aliens,
Abductions or anything of that nature.

Below photos and video clip: On the back of John's neck there is
a large red scar. He believed something was inserted into the
back of his neck after his five hours of missing time. Both John
and his wife couldn't figure out why the baby monitor would go
crazy when it was passed over the scar on his neck. Also the
batteries would go dead. Still, they can't find an answer to
this. (Found on site)

Back home, John tried to explain to his fianc=E9e what he and his
friend Jim had experienced. Of course, John found it hard to
tell his story as he was still at a loss as to what had happened
to himself and his friend. After John told her what he was able
to remember, she was just as confused.

Later that evening John went to bed and after falling asleep he
began to have a series of nightmares about himself and Jim being
back in the area where the encounter had taken place, plus what
they went through. As the nights passed, John continued to have
the same nightmare about their experience.

Because these nightmares kept playing out night after night John
decided to seek out some help. As he told me, he did not know
who to turn to. He did not want to speak to his family members
about what happened as he thought they certainly would not
believe him and most likely wouldn't understand what he was
talking about. He waited, or put the whole issue off, for six
years. Eventually as the years passed, it was time to seek out
professional help from a qualified medical person.

He needed some answers!

John continued talking to his fianc=E9e about what took place.
Over the course of a year or more after the initial sighting,
and encounter, more sightings took place.

At this point in the conversation with John, he was asked how
his relationship with Jim was to date. John told me that the two
of them had pretty much drifted apart. He also went on to say
there were other friends who had been with him on other
occasions and they also had witnessed some of the lights/objects
John was seeing. These friends also started staying away from
him. John's fianc=E9e couldn't take it anymore and left due to the
high strangeness which was continuing to play out around their
home. The couple had a baby boy and John's fianc=E9e felt is
wasn't a good idea to bring the young child up in this type of
environment. John told me it was devastating for him to lose the
people who were the closest to him. The sad fact in this part of
the story is that John's fianc=E9e did not want to have any
contact with him after she left. John was not to have any
contact with "his" child. Legal proceedings were started by his
fianc=E9e to keep John away from his child, which I find extremely
sad. She thought that John was going crazy.

John gave examples of the things he was observing around him. As
he told me, he was seeing these lights/objects around his
property on a continuing basis. He witnessed these unknowns
pretty much over the same area on the acreage and he began to
chase after the objects down the country roads. John felt as if
these objects were leading him to certain spots on the property,
maybe setting him up for something yet to come. Even throughout
it all he still thought how beautiful the balls of lights were
and how they moved so gracefully through the sky. He was chasing
after them because he was hoping to find an answer to all of
this phenomena. Sometimes there was just one light, sometimes
there were two. John said as he chased these lights he would be
brought to an old farm where the unknowns would sit stationary
and eventually just disappear. It seems that John would be
constantly chasing these lights night after night to only see
them vanish before his eyes. (Note: the old farm mentioned above
is actually owned by the goverment).

Of course at this point in John's life he was living on his own.
He met a wonderful lady some months down the road after his
break up with his fianc=E9e. Early in their relationship John
figured he would share some of the things he had witnessed with
his new lady. John cared for his new found love. He wanted her
to see these things so she didn't think he was making up these
stories. It worked out well as she told John that she also had
seen something in the past but wasn't sure what it was. So she
had an interest in all of this.

The couple took a drive out on one of the country roads so John
would be able to let her see for herself the sights he'd been
observing for months. The two of them made their way down to the
old farm and sat there. John started to point out what appeared
to look like shooting stars, except these lights/objects would
come all the way down through the sky and stop over top of the
tree line and move diagonally either to the right or the left.
The lady sat there with her mouth wide open as she watched. She
didn't know what to say as she was in shock to actually see this
unfolding in front of her. John at this point is feeling much
better about the whole situation because he had been talking a
little about this, and now the new love in his life didn't
consider him to be crazy !!

They both watched the lights dance around the sky for
approximately an hour. Suddenly the interior lights of their car
started to flicker off and on. She mentioned to John that this
had never happened to her car before. Finally they decided to
head back home and talk about the event they had both witnessed.
Discussing the nights events, she decided it would be good if
they got a video camera so this could all be documented. She
told John that no one would believe us, we need proof in the
form of footage or still pictures. He certainly agreed that it
was a good idea to get a camera, if for nothing else than to
capture these objects and then show the footage to their other
family members. It was very important for them to believe John.

Susan bought a video camera on December 23, and that night John
ended up chasing a ball of light down the same country road to
the farm where the lights have been so visible on a constant
basis. He started filming two balls of light which were low over
the trees. After approximately fifteen minutes of filming them,
he thought he had enough footage to take back home to share with
his family.

He arrived at his house. Shut the vehicle off and walked inside.
Susan appeared to be upset about something. She turned to him
and asked "where have you been for about five hours". John was
shocked to hear this as he knew he had only been filming for a
short period of time. The couple ended up in an argument over
the length of time he'd been gone as Susan was only concerned
for her husband's well-being. She finally told him to look at
the clock. The time was 4:30 a.m.! John had left at 11:00 p.m.
and thought he was only gone for approximately fifteen minutes.
After he looked at the clock he realized why his wife was so
upset with him. "I just don't understand where the time has
gone" he said.

Eventually things calmed down and he asked his wife to look at
the video tape of what he had captured. Both of them settled in
to watch the video footage so he could prove to Susan that he
was only gone for the 15 minutes and not out doing something
else.

While viewing the tape he excused himself as he had to use the
washroom. As he was about to enter the bathroom his wife, Susan,
yelled out, "what is that?" John turned around to find out what
she was referring to. What she observed on the film was a red
"thing" which appeared on the upper portion of the TV screen. He
walked back and sat down beside her and they rolled the tape
back a little so they could replay it and watch for the red
"thing" that she had noticed. John describes this thing as being
wand or rod-like in shape. It went through his hand which was in
view of the camera. Inside the red rod there appeared to be a
white tube which extended down through and out the end of the
red rod. Once the white tube reached the end of the red rod the
entire apparatus moved rapidly back through John's hand. At that
very moment John recalled some type of cloth rubbing together
and his arm started to go numb. He immediately got up from the
couch and started pacing the floor coming to the realization
that something had happened to him when he was out taking
footage of the lights at the old farm house earlier that
evening. John was finding it very hard to have a good night's
sleep because of what had been going on. The couple just had a
baby girl and John was certainly worried about the unknown
lights around the home and wondering for the safety of his new
born child and his wife. Plus the lights were starting to show
up in the daylight hours which was really getting them all
stressed out.

One example he gave was when his mother-in-law was in one of the
rooms above the main floor of the home and saw a ball of fire
drop out of the sky and shoot lightening bolts at the home.
Another was of a shimmering blue/white light which constantly
showed up in the families backyard. John, not knowing what might
happen, would stay up all night until the sun rose the next
morning. He finally went to see his family physician to ask for
something that might help him get a good night's sleep.

The mother-in-law who saw the ball of fire shoot the lightening
bolts towards the home was a skeptic. She did not believe in
UFOs, or beings from elsewhere. Matter of fact, she had been
holding a cup of coffee when the bolts hit the side of the house
and becoming very frightened, she spilt the hot coffee all over
her chest. The lady was so scared that she dropped to the ground
and crawled underneath a table and stayed there until her
daughter and son-in-law came home. She had no idea what happened
and no rational explanation for it.

John and his wife were at another house on the property and had
witnessed an extremely bright flash and first thought electrical
lines might have fallen onto the residence as they could hear
the sound of an electrical rush of current or discharge. As they
entered the house the flash of light and the sound kept
repeating itself over and over as the couple walked through each
room looking for John's mother-in-law. Finally they found her
hiding underneath the table. Later she told her them that the
flash and sound seemed to be moving around the outside of the
home following John and Susan in and out of each room. The
couple could clearly see the flashing and hear the sound of high
voltage going through the roof as they made their way through
the different rooms.

As mentioned above John sought help so he might get a good
nights sleep. With all the visitations happening on a daily
basis, he wasn't sure if his family was going to be next, or
taken, or harmed in some way. It became so bad that he had his
family sleep/hide in the closet at night and he guarded the
door. John was worn out. He had lost an excellent job working in
construction, etc. He needed professional help at this time. He
talked to a lady (she was a director of Mental Health at one of
the local hospitals) in hopes he might get a little medication
to help him sleep through the night, thinking this may work or
at least help him to some degree. The lady suggested that John
and her go talk to a doctor to see what could be done for him,
in the way of some medication. The lady asked what was going on,
and John thought that just maybe if he told her she might have a
better understanding and know what exactly should be done for
him. She walked with John over to the hospital, (there are two
buildings on the property). At one of the buildings they
evaluate potential patients and at the other building patient
care is handled).

When the lady and John entered one of the buildings, they
immediately got into the elevator and the lady mentioned to John
we are just going up to see the doctor, plus you can tell him
what has been taking place at your home. When John and the lady
arrived at the fifth floor, the elevator doors opened. As he
stepped out he noticed two men dressed in white hospital
clothing approaching him. He was wondering what was going on as
the two men were looking directly at him which made him feel
very nervous. He then turned to ask the lady what was going on
when he saw her back step into the elevator as he watched the
elevator doors close. Feeling frightened at this point John
looked over to where one would push buttons for the elevator
which would take you to different floors in the hospital, but he
noticed that the elevator was operated by keys only. In other
words John was stuck, scared, with nowhere to go.

The two men took hold of John and said that they were going to
take him to have his vitals checked, etc.. While this is being
done John said to the men that he was just here to see the
doctor. One of the men who greeted John told him that the doctor
was not going to be back to the hospital until tomorrow morning
and informed him that he would have to spend the night at the
hospital.

Of course straight away John starts to question what is going
on. From the sounds of it the lady may have called ahead to the
hospital to have John committed for an evaluation, and the two
men did confirm this to John. Being cooperative John asked could
he please make a telephone call to his wife as she was going to
be worried sick about him because she had no clue that he would
be kept overnight. The hospital staff allowed John to call home
and talk to his wife. When Susan found out where her husband was
she was totally upset and surprised. He explained that there was
no way the hospital staff was going to let him out. He was
basically stuck there, at least until the next day. They had no
idea what would come after his meeting with the doctor.

John settled in for the night waiting until morning when the
doctor arrived to evaluate him. Susan also arrived at the
hospital with some of the video footage that they had taken of
the strange occurrences from around their home and explained to
the lady who got John into this pickle that he wasn't delusional
or crazy and everything he had told her was true. She pleaded
with the lady to allow her to show the doctor what was on the
videos.

The lady walked Susan over to the hospital and they waited in a
room to see the doctor. John, the lady and Susan would be
discussing the case. Before he was to meet with everyone he was
given a shot which made him lightheaded. He guessed it was a
sedative of some kind. When he was escorted into the meeting
room there were three doctors waiting. A TV and VCR were hooked
up so everyone would be able to view the tapes Susan had brought
with her. One of the tapes was placed into the VCR and everyone
watched for approximately 5 minutes. The video machine was then
turned off and the doctors consulted and looked at John and
said, Mr. Tosti, we are sorry but there is nothing we can do for
you. So they signed his release papers and John and Susan left
the hospital.

(Document found on site)

Caption for Above Medical Document: Medical record gives
evidence that John was indeed placed into a hospital for
possible treatment. Due to having the footage of what John's
family had filmed and the doctors viewing the tapes they came to
the conclusions that something was definitely happening over and
around the Tosti home.

Susan, John's wife recounted what took place after the trip to
the mental hospital

I am Johns wife, Susan. I'd like to talk a bit about what
happened after his trip to the mental hospital. We found out
what would happen if we sought help. John thought the best way
to stop what was happening to us would be to throw all of the
evidence away. Needless to say I didn't agree and we were having
a rather heated argument. In the midst of our quarreling a
blinding light shot through the window we were sitting next to.
It was just like a bolt of lightning and it sounded like 40,000
volts of electricity on the ceiling. However, there was a
blizzard occurring at the time so that definitely wasn't it.

We both jumped up and ran into the kitchen to get away from it.
As soon as we got to the kitchen it happened again. But this
time it came through the kitchen window we were closest to. So
we ran to the very back room of our house where there was an
outside door. We were going to exit the house. When we went to
open the door it came in through the window in the door at us.
Each time this happened the sound of electricity was deafening.
We thought a power-line had dropped on our house so we called
the power company to help us get out of our house. The snow
wasn't that deep yet and they made it. To our surprise they said
there wasn't a thing wrong.

However we did notice that the snow that had fallen so far had
holes melted in it as if there had been sparks falling all
around our house. That night we were terrorized and it continued
every night for about five days. We would first lose our
electricity. This always adds an extra element of terror. Then
you realize you are not alone. Bright blue strobe lights or
bright white lights from outside would light up our house and
sometimes we would see others in the house with us. One time
they were in my bedroom with me and one grabbed my leg and tried
to pull me off the bed. I didn't appreciate it too much. My
husband also saw a few others but he can tell you about them. I
was very scared and I didn't know how we were going to go on.
After the blizzard was over and the state of emergency in our
county was lifted things got better. But they were still there
above our house every night for the longest time and I never
knew when they were going to start terrorizing us again. It was
not a good time and I feel for anyone that has experienced this.

John has pulled together some eight to ten hours of footage of
these strange lights, etc. Also there is the medical form on
which it states that John was in the hospital at the time he
mentioned. Also since all the strangeness has been taking place
there, John's family have observed many helicopters flying close
and over the top of his home when they never showed up before.
He has footage and stills of the fly by. Because things were so
frightening and not sure what the government might or might not
do, John and his family talked to reporters who came to visit
their home and related their story to them. The idea was if the
information gets into the public eye then government officials
would leave them alone if this should ever be a problem. John
has filmed military jets flying low over the roads. After he
played back the video tape of the aircraft he could clearly see
a wobbling object of some kind which was flying directly below
one of the jet aircraft. Later that day he went over to a
friend's home and saw something with a shape flying over top of
his friends house above the tree line. He told me the camera was
set at a high shutter speed. Also military helicopters were
buzzing the families home on many occasions.

One of John's most memorable videos captured an object that was
a moon sized craft that was vertical in the sky and
approximately 200 to 300 feet off the ground. John could easily
see a number of separate lights on the bottom of the craft. As
the object started to lean towards John's direction or location
he was able to see a dome towards the back part of the craft as
the rim of the object became more visible. The dome portion of
it was a blue/white color. As the object started to pitch down
in front of John he turned on the vehicle's headlights to
brighten up the area. What he wanted to accomplish was to
provide some trees, the long grass etc.. which would show up on
the video and give some perspective to show just how low the
object was, and to give a good idea of what it looked like and
how it maneuvered. As soon as the lights from John's vehicle
were turned on, the craft flattened out and dropped down towards
the ground with the dome and other features clearly visible. All
of a sudden the bottom of the craft starts flashing until
eventually the whole craft starts to flash. As he watches, the
object starts to move to his left, which would have been towards
the south. Still visible by sight and camera, the object came to
a complete stop and hovers. From there it starts to change it's
form/shape and moves back to John's right and behind a tree.
=46rom there it releases two smaller objects which are red and the
other green. These two colored objects were round in shape.

As John watched the large object move again to his left/south he
lost sight of the two smaller ones. Keep in mind that he had
still been filming and caught the object changing it's form. As
it reached a point to his left the large craft started to flash.
As John zooms in on the large object the two smaller objects
reappeared. One of the smaller objects went to the top of the
craft while the other object positioned itself at the bottom. He
could clearly see there were three separate objects and that
none of them were attached to one another. This piece of footage
was shot on January 19, 1996. John estimates the craft to be
approximately 500 yards away from his location. He also
estimates (roughly) the object may have been some 35 feet in
diameter.

After all this being caught on film it was a relief for John to
be able to show his whole family that he was not crazy and was
certainly seeing all that he was talking about.

The unusual events that have taken place at the Tosti home are
still continuing to this day but it comes in patterns over a
period of time, then the sightings subside to some degree. When
the lights or sightings flare up John notices there are regular
military over flights of the area. Note from John Tosti about
the newspaper article

I thought we would send some more evidence pertaining to our
sightings and visitations. The article attached is from our
local newspaper in Bloomington called "The Herald Times". This
occurred when we were having many encounters. We obviously
weren't the only ones that saw strange occurrences. There is a
man who claims he witnessed a plane crash in the woods. This man
first saw landing lights of an airplane. Shortly thereafter he
saw a fireball and heard an explosion. Two other people also
heard the explosion. This site is only 3-4 miles from our house
with nothing in between but a lake and woodland. Department of
Natural Resources Officer Steve McClain concluded that someone
could have exploded a home-made bomb or gasoline but yet
"nothing out of the ordinary was found". There wasn't any
scorched earth or trees nor was there a strong odor of gas.
Seems to me that would have been very noticeable. Even if what
Officer McClain concluded was true( which I strongly doubt), it
doesn't explain the landing lights the man saw in the air and
the fireball with a huge explosion. Corp. Rick Wright said "The
man saw something. We just don't know what he saw."

An Update On Events taking place around the area where the Tosi
family lives right now.

The email, below, was from a close friend of John's: (October
2004).

I don't know if John told you about the last couple days, two
nights ago John noticed lights up in the sky, the dogs were
going nuts over here.

John and I live about 1 1/2 miles apart now, so when he or I see
something outside we can both usually see it from our places
unless their low to the ground.

But yesterday, there was 3 F-16's flying over town, 1 up front
and 2 behind, way below the required 10,000 feet level. They
were about 1500 feet off the ground, as I headed back home I
lost sight of them. When I got there, my neighbor said he heard
them, then saw them flying around in circles like they were
"looking or chasing" something, then about 10 minutes later
Alice heard a helicopter. I looked outside and saw it was a
Black Hawk with a gun port on the side. I called (name removed)
out to see it as well.

That is when I went to John's to work on sending you the photos,
and on the drive to Johns, 5 military vehicles came rushing down
the road in the opposite direction... 1 Humvee with a red light
on the dash, 3 troop carriers with the tarps pulled over them,
and another Humvee following. Johns wife saw a helicopter hover
over their house as well.

Interesting things going on around here as of late.

Other pictures and video footage of interest that John, Mark
and other folks have taken around Bloomington Indiana, or close
to John's location.

(photos found at site)

Did John catch the image of figures in a craft as he snapped
off a couple of quick photos ?

More photos and footage will be added as I go along with this
story, so please do check back from time to time.

HBCC UFO Research Note: I would like to extend my many thanks to
the Tosti family. It takes alot of courage to come forward and
tell about the ongoing events which has taken place around their
home in Bloomington, Indiana over the years. I would also like
to add that the strange lights/objects can still be seen from
time to time around the Tosti home. It hasn't ended ! Please
note all footage is =A92004 John Tosti.

Also I would like to thank Mr. Gabe Torok for all his help in
getting the video footage reformatted into a format that can
be viewed at my site.


Mr. Gabe Torok
GBBC Marketing
GBBC Photography
http://www.garden-bay-bc.com

Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO Research Home - Phone 250 845 2189
email: hbccufo.nul Website: http://www.hbccufo.com
Redirect: http://www.canadianufo.com HBCC UFO RESEARCH
Newsletter At:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HBCC_UFO_Newsletter/

HBCC UFO Research, Box 1091 Houston, British Columbia, Canada -
 VOJ 1ZO

-----------------

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Description: The existence of UFOs is a phenomenon that
intrigues and captivates, yet it generates more skepticism than
acceptance. Witnesses of unconventional craft are often
disbelieved and even ridiculed. Belief in the existence of UFOs
is obviously not yet mainstream, but that may one day change.
Over the past few decades, reports of UFO sightings have
dramatically increased in North America. Further, these
sightings have been observed to be more blatant and even
menacing. Some reports even imply that these craft are
monitoring our planet.

Interestingly, many of these sightings have taken place over
military bases. In UFO Weather Shield, A.K. Johnstone, PhD.,
explores the details of numerous sightings from a scientific
viewpoint, including descriptions of craft, luminous sheaths and
fireballs. So what, if anything, is the United States government
doing about it? Johnstone suggests that military and government
agencies have the ability to manipulate weather
electromagnetically and with chemtrails to deter unconventional
craft. This hypothesis also explains erratic changes in the
weather in the last few years. Is the government creating a
weather shield to deter UFOs from entering the earth=92s
atmosphere? Take a look at the evidence.

To purchase the book, please visit:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D1934








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                        The Times Betty Hill Obituary

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 09:46:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 09:46:15 -0500
Subject: The Times Betty Hill Obituary




Source: The Times Online - UK

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,60-1345990,00.html

11-06-04


Obituaries

Betty Hill

Social worker who became a sceptical expert on alien abduction
after a professed close encounter

In 1965 Betty Hill and her husband Barney found themselves
afflicted by nightmares, and Barney was suffering a rash on his
stomach. They sought medical advice and, after hypnosis,
conducted by a Boston psychiatrist, Dr Benjamin Simons, it was
suggested that the ailments were a consequence of the couple's
having suppressed their memories of being embarked in an alien
spaceship, where they conversed with - and were minutely
examined by - small, grey beings.

This incident was deemed to have occurred some four years
earlier, on September 19, 1961, as Hill and her husband were
driving to their home in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, after a
holiday in Montreal.

The Hills' experience was one of the first alien-abduction
stories to be recorded, publicised and scrutinised by sceptical
and sympathetic audiences. The Boston Traveller ran the story
for five consecutive days in October 1965. The next year it
became the subject of a bestselling book by John Fuller,
Interrupted Journey, and in 1975 Universal Studios made a
television film, The UFO Incident.

Although Betty Hill condemned much of UFO culture, until her
retirement in 1991 she travelled the world lecturing on her
experiences and promoting research into the existence of
extraterrestrial life forms. She felt that the subject was
becoming tainted with commercialism and, though she published
her own consideration of UFO and abduction investigation, A
Common Sense Approach to UFOs (1995), she declared that it was
not written for cultish alien enthusiasts.

Paradoxically, she even came to disparage the validity of
hypnosis, asserting that it was based on suggestibility - "when
somebody goes in for hypnosis for a UFO abduction," she said,
"they're going to get it" - and she disagreed with the methods
and findings of academics and scientists such as Budd Hopkins,
David Jacobs and John Mack.

She was also sceptical of the proliferation of abduction claims
in America, most of which she saw as copycat instances.

"In this country, they say three million people have been
abducted," she said. "Not once, but continuously. That means
three or four thousand people every night are being abducted. In
this country alone. I don't know how the planes get through."

She did, however, claim regularly to see UFOs herself, and had
recorded and photographed numerous purported landing sites.

Before the war Hill attended the University of New Hampshire.
She became a social worker specialising in adoption and training
foster parents.

She was also an active member of the National Association for
the Advancement of Colored People and a founding member of
Rockingham Community Action. Her marriage to her black husband
Barney was highly unusual America in its day. He died of a brain
haemorrhage in 1969. In the last years of her life Hill became
far more interested in tracing her ancestry than in UFOs.

Betty Hill, social worker, was born in 1919. She died on October
17, 2004, aged 85.


[UFO UpDates thanks Norman for the lead]






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                   'Inside' The 'USSR Majestic 12 Program'

From: Boris Shurinov <shurinov.nul>
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 00:23:34 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 09:53:25 -0500
Subject: 'Inside' The 'USSR Majestic 12 Program'


Today I received the following announcement signed by
Ryan S. Wood:

-----

David Pace
Inside The USSR Majestic 12 Program

Dr. David Pace will discuss his experiences with the Soviet UFO
Hierarchy, Scientific-Engineering and Medical as well as
governmental. First will be a discussion of the history and
genesis of the USSR's analogue to Majestic 12 program. The
second part of the talk will encompass Soviet/Russian UFO crash
retrievals and perspective on reverse science and engineering,
along with his firsthand knowledge and experience with the
Soviet analogues to America's Area 51. Specific examples of UFO
crashes will be presented along with his insights about the
reality of such events. Given Dr. Pace's experience, his
insights into the USA - USSR coordination and communications
around UFO events and technology constitute a true first in
Ufology.

-----

I was obliged to send my congratulations to Ryan S. Wood:


Dear Conference Chairman,

You have surprised me with your story about David Pace who "will
discuss his experiences with the Soviet UFO Hierarchy..." If you
need storytellers for your conference, let me know. We have, in
Russia, many liars ready to speak about Soviet/Russian UFO crash
retrievals and the Soviet analogues to America's Area 51.

I hope you understand why your and our debunkers are very glad.
I hope you understand why it is difficult to defend Roswell and
MJ-12.

Congratulations with "a true first in Ufology".


Boris Shurinov
President
The Ufological Society
Moscow







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                         NSA/CSS UFO Documents Index

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 21:56:04 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 12:34:57 -0500
Subject: NSA/CSS UFO Documents Index


The National Security Agency/Central Security Service
UFO Documents Index

http://www.nsa.gov/ufo/index.cfm

"The documents listed on this page were located in response to
the numerous requests received by NSA on the subject of
Unidentified Flying Objects (UFO).

In 1980, NSA was involved in Civil Action No. 80-1562,
 "Citizens Against Unidentified Flying Objects Secrecy v.
National Security Agency".

Documents related to that ligitation are marked with '*'.

'XXXXX' has been inserted in a title if a portion of the title
has been deleted prior to release."








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                          Anti-Hydrogen Propulsion

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 21:56:13 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 12:37:08 -0500
Subject: Anti-Hydrogen Propulsion


http://www.arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0410511

Controlled Antihydrogen Propulsion For NASA's Future In Very
Deep Space

by Michael Martin Nieto,
Michael H. Holzscheiter, Slava G. Turyshev.

12 pages, 3 figures, to be published in the Proceedings of the
2004 NASA/JPL Workshop on Physics for Planetary Exploration

To world-wide notice, in 2002 the ATHENA collaboration
at CERN (in Geneva, Switzerland) announced the creation
of order 100,000 low energy antihydrogen atoms. Thus,
the concept of using condensed antihydrogen as a low-weight,
powerful fuel (i.e., it produces a thousand times more
energy per unit weight of fuel than fission/fusion) for
very deep space missions (the Oort cloud and beyond) had
reached the realm of conceivability. We briefly discuss
the history of antimatter research and focus on the
technologies that must be developed to allow a future
use of controlled, condensed antihydrogen for propulsion
purposes. We emphasize that a dedicated antiproton source
(the main barrier to copious antihydrogen production) must
be built in the US, perhaps as a joint NASA/DOE/NIH project.
This is because the only practical sources in the world are
at CERN and the proposed facility at GSI in Germany.

We outline the scope and magnitude of such a dedicated
national facility and identify critical project milestones.
We estimate that, starting with the present level of knowledge
and multi-agency support, the goal of using antihydrogen
for propulsion purposes may be accomplished in ~50 years.

-----

Next step should be the controlled 'unmatter' propulsion, or
the controlled teleported antimatter propulsion, of course :-)








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               Re: Mexican Air Force FLIR Information - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 04:32:57 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 12:39:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Mexican Air Force FLIR Information - Sparks


>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>,
>Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 18:05:16 -0600
>Subject: Mexican Air Force FLIR Information

<snip>

>Another thing which is equally interesting is that of the FLIR
>elevation problems. Gyroscopes are stabilized with respect to
>the inertial frame of reference. In this case, we can assume
>that it is fixed to the Earth.

>However the SAFIRE II has two modes:

>One is a hybrid mode where the camera is stabilized against
>image vibration by the gyros, but more or less fixed to the
>aircraft attitude for lower-speed motion. That this is the mode
>which is active while these images is shot, is documented in the
>top-center of the images where you can see it says "INRPT", this
>'hybrid mode'.

>The second mode is denoted as "HDHLD", and this denotes
>inertially stabilized position servo mode. In the video, the
>images in question are shot with respect to the aircraft's
>attitude since it is in hybrid mode, but the camera is still
>stabilized against image vibration by the gyros.

This is double talk. Either the "hybrid mode" is gyro-stabilized
or is it is not. Which is it?

>So the assumptions concerning that the camera must have been
>relative to the mounting point on the fuselage, is hereby
>documented to be correct.

>It is common practice for pilots to crank a few degrees of flap
>so they can cruise a little slower while keeping the airplane
>leveled.

So what you are saying is that the Sun and Moon co-operated with
your flying oil well theory by jumping around by 10, 20 and 30
degrees in azimuth and 5+ degrees in elevation? The Sun (by
reflections) and Moon (directly imaged) were within 2 degrees of
correct astronomical position both elevation and azimuth in the
FLIR. Your continue to to evade these facts.....








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                       UFO Watchers Visit Utah Desert

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 07:04:21 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 12:43:50 -0500
Subject: UFO Watchers Visit Utah Desert


Source: KSL TV 5 - Salt Lake City, Utah

http://tv.ksl.com/index.php?nid=39&sid=131060

11-06-04

UFO Watchers Visit Utah Desert

UFO Watchers Visit Utah Desert


"WE're just about the truth and with Dugway more or less in our
backyard it's something to watch. Nobody really knows what
they're doing out there."

UFO watchers may have another place to ply their trade.... the
Utah desert!

Tonight at ten we'll show you why some people say strange things
are going on in the western part of the state...








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                         Re: Human Races - Dickenson

From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul>
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 14:33:30 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 12:44:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Human Races - Dickenson


>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 13:09:44 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
>Subject: Re: Human Races

>The recently published book 'Rare Earth' by astrobiologists
>Peter Ward and Don Brownlee present the sobering but solidly
>argued case that we, as an intelligent species, are unique
>in the universe and other ET civilizations are rare if not
>non-existent!

Hello Nick and List

That `rare earth hypothesis' assumes all life is exactly like
Earth-life, needing same temperatures, amounts of oxygen &
water, RNA/DNA reproduction-loops etc.

Analysis by Profs. Cohen & Stewart (in their more recent book
"Evolving the Alien") makes the point that "sufficiency is _not_
necessity" and that the "Rare Earth" hypothesis is virtually
saying "animals need legs exactly the right length to make their
feet reach the ground".

The professors' final quote - "Does `Rare Earth' envisage
_anything_ that has not already happened on this planet? No. For
most sciences, that might be acceptable, might even make sense.
But for a science of the alien?"

Their argument is that `astrobiology' is necessarily Earth-
oriented - narrow and negative. What they say is needed is
`xenobiology' - an entirely different thing.

[There's also a rebuttal of "Habitable Zones" - summed up at
"exosci.html" - scroll down to bottom]


Cheers

Ray D

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Perceptions" http://www.perceptions.couk.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





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                  Largest Field Of Impact Craters Uncovered

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 08:26:21 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 12:48:21 -0500
Subject: Largest Field Of Impact Craters Uncovered


Source: The New Scientist

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996611


11-07-04

Largest Ever Field Of Impact Craters Uncovered

Exclusive from New Scientist Print Edition.

The discovery of the largest field of impact craters ever
uncovered on Earth is the first evidence that the planet
suffered simultaneous meteor impacts in the recent past. The
field has gone unnoticed until now because it is partially
buried beneath the sands of the Sahara desert in south-west
Egypt.

Philippe Paillou of Bordeaux University Observatory in Floirac,
France, first noticed circular geological structures in the
Sahara last year, while analysing radar satellite pictures of
the area.

The structures turned out to be part of a huge field of 100
craters spread over 5000 square kilometres near the Gilf Kebir
plateau. The craters vary in diameter from 20 metres to 2
kilometres across. The previous largest known crater field
covers a mere 60 square kilometres in Argentina.

In February, Paillou led a joint Egyptian and French mission to
find the site and examined 13 of the craters, confirming that
they were the result of simultaneous impacts. But accurately
dating the field has been tricky. Paillou estimates that it is
roughly 50 million years old, relatively young in geological
terms.

The size of the field suggests that it could be the result of
two or more meteors disintegrating as they entered Earth?s
atmosphere, the first evidence of a multiple strike, he says.

"Because the field is so big, it can?t have been made by one
meteor," says Paillou. But more information is needed to
understand the event and its effects, and Paillou plans to
return to the area next month.


Jonathan Walter

Copyright Reed Business Information Ltd.








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                       UFO Archives For Sale Or Lease

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 16:07:32 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 12:50:00 -0500
Subject: UFO Archives For Sale Or Lease


All you skeptibunkers whose twisted world view leads you to
believe that we are profiteering on UFOs, take note. Due to
serious financial problems I have decided to sell off my UFO
collection - audiovisuals, books, journals, newsletters,
historical correspondence, newspaper clippings, case files, UFO
articles, documents, etc. - either as a whole or piecemeal.

My preference would be to find an individual, or group, or
consortium willing to pay me a small monthly salary to continue
as curator of the files, in return for which I would sign legal
papers turning over ownership, a will, and/or agreement on a
date certain for the files to be turned over. Barring that, I
will consider any offers, but they will have to be sufficient to
relieve me of my indebtedness or there will be no deal. Details
to be negotiated.


Richard Hall
Brentwood, Maryland








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                             Re: Limboids - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 10:15:47 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 12:51:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Limboids - King


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 21:41:57 -0400
>Subject: Re: Limboids

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 08:13:56 -0600
>>Subject: Re: Limboids

<snip>

>I can't see the point of talking about intergalactic travel as
>opposed to intragalactic travel... nearest other galaxy is about
>a million light years away. There are about 1000 stars within 55
>light years, 46 of which are quite similar to the sun. Much
>less of a problem.


Hi Stan,

Quite right. My more esoteric thoughts tend to the expansive,
perhaps to the exclusion of more local issues. My faux pas.....

I think the operative word here is travel. If a mechanism for
instantaneous relocation to another place was made practical,
the idea of distance would become quite obsolete, whether one
was "traveling" to the Marquesas, Mars, or the Magellenic Cloud.

If an alien intelligence has discovered such a mechanism,
likewise their "travels" here might me much less significant to
them than they are to us.

But I think you're right to focus on the neighborhood first.


Best Regards,

Kyle








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                             Re: Limboids - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 10:46:02 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 12:54:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Limboids - King


>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 09:47:21 -0500
>Subject: Re: Limboids

<snip>

>And while the mechanism of life, or the REAL reality is grist
>for discussion (here and elsewhere), I become practical when it
>comes to "flying saucers" -- er, I mean UFOs.

>Shoot one of them down if need be. The consequences be damned.

>But let's resolve the matter once and for all. And I know you
>agree.

>Meanwhile, with a dearth of real investigation by the UFO
>fellowship, new investigation I mean, we can debate the
>peripheral issues that attend to the phenomenon.

>And your insertions here are alway enlightening as far as I'm
>concerned.


Hi Rich,

Agreed, agreed, and agreed... and thanks again for your kind
comments.

I suppose it is my exposure to science fiction, particularly the
Star Trek, Twilight Zone, and Outer Limits series which stoked
my inability to separate the UFO puzzle from the esoteric study
of reality. While my feet are firmly embedded in the concrete of
practical existence and therefore desirous of similar concrete
truths or evidence to explain our mysteries, my head spends an
inordinate amount of time engaged in the attempt to wrap itself
around untestable and non-provable ideas.

That I don't see the two as separate things is probably a good
thing, but the discussion of the concrete stands a much better
chance of advancing our knowledge...and the debate...than the
discussion of esoterica.

To restate a point made by others in this List... back to UFOs!

Seen any good photos lately?


Best Regards,

Kyle








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                            Subscriber Reminders

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 13:07:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 13:07:35 -0500
Subject: Subscriber Reminders

Please, do not use Archive versions of List posts for your
responses.

The Archive software deliberately strips and replaces several
items in the headers of List messages posted there - which
renders them non-compliant to the List posting-protocol.

The same goes for responding to a direct Cc: you may have
received from the sender of a submission to the List. Please
used the version that comes to you via the List.

There have been several instances, lately, of Subject-line
hijacking, which makes following threads difficult. Stick
to the Subject: of the posts, please.

Also, the amount of quoting in responses is starting to creep up
again. The bare minimum, please. And we don't need seven or
eight sets of attribution headers either.

My thanks for your co-operation,

Errol Bruce-Knapp
Moderator
UFO UpDates - Toronto






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                            Re: Limboids - Chace

From: David Chace <davidwchace.nul>
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 09:55:52 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 13:10:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Limboids - Chace


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 21:41:57 -0400
>Subject: Re: Limboids

<snip>

>I can't see the point of talking about intergalactic travel as
>opposed to intragalactic travel... nearest other galaxy is about
>a million light years away. There are about 1000 stars within
>55 light years, 46 of which are quite similar to the sun. Much
>less of a problem.


The frequent use of the term "intergalactic" where
"intragalactic" or "interstellar" would arguably be more
appropriate is akin to the use of the pronunciation "nucular" in
place of "nuclear."

If one truly understands what intergalactic means,
astronomically speaking, then to use it in the context of a
discussion of hypothetical technologies under development is to
argue that we are on the verge truly dramatic leap in
technology.

Perhaps no civilization out there actually uses conventional
starships that navigate from nearest star to nearest star.

Perhaps quantum teleportation allows them to skip over that
stage of development and go straight from interplanetary travel
to intergalactic travel.

Similarly, wormholes or hyperspace travel, which bypass physical
distance, could accomplish the same thing.

Admittedly, that is not a very conservative position, and apart
from some UFO occupants allegedly stating that they come from
the Andromeda galaxy, there is little to no evidence to support
it.

Nevertheless, we really don�t know how space travel will develop
over the coming centuries and millennia. The Fish interpretation
of the Betty Hill star map, of course, points to a much more
conservative scenario.

In fact, the term "intergalactic" has come to mean, informally,
something like a space age equivalent of grandiose. Most people
who use it in discussion of UFOs and space travel seem ignorant
of their crime.

I appreciate the fact that George Lucas has never allowed it to
slip into his Star Wars films, which is quite an accomplishment
given the scope of that series.

Unfortunately, the term "parsec" was used by Han Solo in the
cantina sequence, in a manner that suggested it was a unit of
time rather than distance.


David W. Chace








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                           Re: Limboids - Reynolds

From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 13:10:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 07:51:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Limboids - Reynolds


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 10:46:02 -0600
>Subject: Re: Limboids

<snip>

>To restate a point made by others in this List... back to UFOs!

>Seen any good photos lately?

Speaking of photos, Kyle...

We have a nagative film strip from the 50s which shows a
v-formation of UFOs.

I don't know how to scan or reproduce the negative for insertion
at one of our web-sites for viewing here, but we're trying to do
that.

We can reproduce the photo, but I think the negative might prove
more valuable - for authentication.


Rich








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                          Re: Human Races - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 14:30:08 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 07:55:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Human Races - Ledger


>From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 14:33:30 +0000
>Subject: Re: Human Races

>>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 13:09:44 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
>>Subject: Re: Human Races

>>The recently published book 'Rare Earth' by astrobiologists
>>Peter Ward and Don Brownlee present the sobering but solidly
>>argued case that we, as an intelligent species, are unique
>>in the universe and other ET civilizations are rare if not
>>non-existent!

>That `rare earth hypothesis' assumes all life is exactly like
>Earth-life, needing same temperatures, amounts of oxygen &
>water, RNA/DNA reproduction-loops etc.

<snip>

>[There's also a rebuttal of "Habitable Zones" - summed up at
"exosci.html" - scroll down to bottom]

Hi Ray,

If memory serves Ward and Browlee were documented on Nova or
some other documentary regarding their theories, and I
remembered thinking then that, as you say, their theories were
homosapien egocentric. Their reasoning seemed much too narrow
for what we know life can do when put under pressure. Monkeys
and typewriters. The universe seems infinite, why not the
possibility of life?


Best,

Don Ledger








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              Re: National Geographic's Search For Alien Life -

From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 15:06:36 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 08:00:29 -0500
Subject: Re: National Geographic's Search For Alien Life -


>Source: PrNewswire.Com

>http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/11-05-20
04/0002359262&EDATE

>11-05-04


>National Geographic Channel's Series Naked Science Explores the
>Search for Alien Life

>WASHINGTON, Nov. 5 /PRNewswire/ - Are we the only intelligent
>species alive in the universe? Is it possible that the amazing
>chain of events that led to intelligent life on earth was truly
>unique? Today, some scientists are convinced we are in fact not
>alone, and that we are on the verge of finding other life forms
>that inhabit the cosmos.

>National Geographic Channel's Naked Science: "Alien Contact"
>explores the latest developments in the search for
>extraterrestrials on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 at 10 p.m.
>ET/PT. Viewers will hear from top scientists, planet hunters,
>and others convinced that life exists beyond our planet. Naked
>Science dares to explore the outer limits of their theories, and
>helps separate scientific fact from science fiction.

<snip>

Hi everyone!

A few weeks ago I purchased a National Geographic video at
Toronto's 'World's Biggest Bookstore'. The title was 'Phantom
Quest, The Search For Extraterrestrials' (1999, 30 minutes).

After the clerk/cashier noticed the subject matter of the video
when I went to pay for it, he took a moment to write something
on a piece of paper and then gave it to me along with the video.

It was Errol's radio show on UFOs! He told me if I was
interested in this subject, I should listen to 'Strange Days...
Indeed' on Saturday nights on CFRB 1010 AM to learn all about
ETs and UFOs. I thanked him and said I will. I did not say that
I too am a big fan of this radio show or that I have been an
occasional guest on it too.

With human knowledge increasing at an unprecidented rate and
yesterday's scientific facts now quickly being discarded as
outdated or erroneous beliefs, this latest National Geographic
exploration into the subject of ETs I suspect will not be the
final one either. If you really want to be informed about the
truth about ETs and UFOs, then like the bookstore clerk/cashier,
I too would like to encourage you to listen to Errol's 'Strange
Days... Indeed' on the radio or via your computer. When the
truth about ETs and UFOs eventually does come out and everyone
learns that we are not alone in the cosmos, you can then say
that you knew about this all along!

Since it has already been 7 years since Errol started 'Strange
Days... Indeed', I do not expect the big announcement regarding
the reality of ETs and UFOs anytime soon though.

For those living in the Toronto area, you are welcome to borrow
this earlier National Geographic video on ETs or any other
video, book or journal I have from my very large and growing
collection on UFOs and related subjects at York University.


Nick Balaskas








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                Re: UFO Archives For Sale Or Lease - Chester

From: Keith Chester <projectbluebook.nul>
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 18:25:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 08:03:14 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Archives For Sale Or Lease - Chester


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 16:07:32 +0000
>Subject: UFO Archives For Sale Or Lease

>All you skeptibunkers whose twisted world view leads you to
>believe that we are profiteering on UFOs, take note. Due to
>serious financial problems I have decided to sell off my UFO
>collection - audiovisuals, books, journals, newsletters,
>historical correspondence, newspaper clippings, case files, UFO
>articles, documents, etc. - either as a whole or piecemeal.

>My preference would be to find an individual, or group, or
>consortium willing to pay me a small monthly salary to continue
>as curator of the files, in return for which I would sign legal
>papers turning over ownership, a will, and/or agreement on a
>date certain for the files to be turned over. Barring that, I
>will consider any offers, but they will have to be sufficient to
>relieve me of my indebtedness or there will be no deal. Details
>to be negotiated.


Dear Mr. Hall,

I'm sorry to hear you are experiencing such financial
difficulties. I would very much be interested in correspondence,
documents, and any other related information to the World War II
era. My Foo Fighter research is at a crawl, between work and
other things, but I'm plugging away. I'm very passionate about
publishing my book and would be very grateful if you could trust
me with information from your files, especially regarding
Mr.Keyhoe's personal investigation of the subject; I am very
much interested in his information that did not make it into his
books, if any.

Any correspondence between you and Leonard Stringfield will be
of most importance. I am still in contact with Dell and she has
provided me with dates of his discharge. My book will be
dedicated in his memory.

I feel that I am probably the most knowledgeable on this
particular aspect of the UFO phenomenon and I hope you will
consider my request as both serious and respectful of the
material. All credit for anything I use will be given to you. I
will also take extra care not to misrepresent or misinterpret
any of the material that might be used.

I remember that you have microfilm. Please let me know what you
have.

In closing, I really don't know what all you have, but I think
you have a very good idea of what I'm seeking.


Thank you,

Keith Chester








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                                Richard Hall

From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 00:22:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 08:04:37 -0500
Subject: Richard Hall


Because Richard Hall has a financial need at the moment, perhaps
those who use UFO UpDates might contribute a few dollars to
cover any legal fees he has or may have to resolve his temporary
problem.

We're in for $100.

How about others who feel as we do that Mr. Hall should not have
to sell off his life's work to satisfy some debts?

Rich Reynolds
Director
InterAmerica, Inc.
Fort Wayne MediaWatch







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             Access To UK Secret Files Threatened By 'Asbestos'

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 08:25:54 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 08:25:54 -0500
Subject: Access To UK Secret Files Threatened By 'Asbestos'




Source: The Daily Telegraph - UK

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/10/25/nfiles25.xml

25-10-04


Access To Secret Files Threatened By Asbestos
By Ben Fenton

Up to 10 million pages of vital military secrets have been
rendered unusable by exposure to asbestos - and experts say the
contamination threatens the operation of the Freedom of
Information Act.

The 63,000 files include many nuclear secrets and the official
versions of events such as the sinking of the Belgrano in 1982
and the killing of IRA terrorists in Gibraltar by the SAS in
1988.

A decontamination expert said the cost of cleaning the files
would run into tens of millions of pounds and could take years
to complete.

The Ministry of Defence says the files have been removed from
the basement of the old War Office building in Whitehall to a
warehouse in west London while it works out how to deal with
them.

It has known about the contamination at least since spring last
year but the first meeting of a committee to decide how to make
the documents safe for people to read was held only last month.
The delay has alarmed watchdog groups. They fear that many files
will be excluded from public scrutiny for indefinite periods.

Under the Freedom of Information Act, which comes into force on
Jan 1, all such files can be subject to requests by members of
the public. Campaigners for open government fear that the
ministry will now be able to delay answering such requests.

Maurice Frankel, the chairman of the Campaign for Freedom of
Information, said: "This is a very serious problem and the
Ministry of Defence must give it priority, given that the
Freedom of Information Act is coming into full force
imminently."

Historians who have asked to see some of the files under less
sweeping open government codes have been told it is impossible
and that the ministry cannot say when "normal" procedures will
be resumed. Under the Freedom of Information Act, the ministry
is allowed only 20 working days before having to say whether a
researcher can see particular files.

Prof Matthew Jones, of Nottingham University, an expert on the
Cold War and Britain's nuclear history, said: "I find it
disturbing that the MoD may be able to use the excuse of
asbestos not to fulfil the requirements of the Act.

"These files are irreplaceable records of this nation's defence
and foreign policy during the 20th century."

A ministry spokesman said: "The immediate concern of those
responsible for the records has been to protect the health and
safety of staff and others.

"Therefore the records have been treated as potentially
contaminated with asbestos and sealed into plastic sacks which
were then packed into crates."

Bill Sanderson is a decontamination expert with experience of
cleaning hundreds of files belonging to the London Docklands
Development Corporation that were exposed to asbestos in 1993.

He said: "This is a very substantial undertaking. Unless
documents are thought to be very valuable, we would recommend
destroying them. That does not seem to be possible here."

Asked how much it would cost and how long it would take to
decontaminate all the files, he said he could only estimate
"many millions of pounds and possibly years".

Prof Peter Hennessey, of Queen Mary's College, London, an expert
in Whitehall secrecy, said: "Now that we know about this, they
cannot destroy the files under the Public Records Act. But I
gather that consideration was given to destruction in the first
instance.

"These are the crown jewels of the Cold War generation and we
owe it to that generation of people who did many serious and
secret things for their country to get this stuff out."

The ministry said that documents would not be destroyed unless
they had been transferred to "another medium" - scanned into
computers or microfilmed - for permanent preservation at the
National Archives.

A source at the National Archives said: "People are
understandably suspicious because the Government generally and
the MoD in particular do not have a very good record in handling
secrets."


[UFO UpDates thanks Stuart Miller for the lead]






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                         Re: Richard Hall - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 07:13:55 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 08:47:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Richard Hall - Lehmberg


>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 00:22:13 -0500
>Subject: Richard Hall

>Because Richard Hall has a financial need at the moment, perhaps
>those who use UFO UpDates might contribute a few dollars to
>cover any legal fees he has or may have to resolve his temporary
>problem.

>We're in for $100.

>How about others who feel as we do that Mr. Hall should not have
>to sell off his life's work to satisfy some debts?

Glad somebody else did this... I pledge a hundred... and not
restricted to legal fees... freakin' hookers and cheeseburgers
if required.


alienview.nul  -:=A6:-
   www.AlienView.net








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              Re: National Geographic's Search For Alien Life -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 07:21:53 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 08:49:40 -0500
Subject: Re: National Geographic's Search For Alien Life -


>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 15:06:36 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
>Subject: Re: National Geographic's Search For Alien Life

>>Source: PrNewswire.Com

>>http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=3D104&STORY=3D/www/story=
/11-05-2004/0002359262&EDATE

>>11-05-04

>>National Geographic Channel's Series Naked Science Explores the
>>Search for Alien Life

>>WASHINGTON, Nov. 5 /PRNewswire/ - Are we the only intelligent
>>species alive in the universe? Is it possible that the amazing
>>chain of events that led to intelligent life on earth was truly
>>unique? Today, some scientists are convinced we are in fact not
>>alone, and that we are on the verge of finding other life forms
>>that inhabit the cosmos.

>>National Geographic Channel's Naked Science: "Alien Contact"
>>explores the latest developments in the search for
>>extraterrestrials on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 at 10 p.m.
>>ET/PT. Viewers will hear from top scientists, planet hunters,
>>and others convinced that life exists beyond our planet. Naked
>>Science dares to explore the outer limits of their theories, and
>>helps separate scientific fact from science fiction.

<snip>

>Since it has already been 7 years since Errol started 'Strange
>Days... Indeed', I do not expect the big announcement regarding
>the reality of ETs and UFOs anytime soon though.

Seven years... it would seem that we all have history with one
another that may have gone unconsidered to date. One would
think there was a kind of strength in the chronicle extant
facilitating the announcment you allude to.


alienview.nul -:=A6:-
  www.AlienView.net








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                         Re: Richard Hall - Reynolds

From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 09:03:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 17:19:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Richard Hall - Reynolds


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 07:13:55 -0600
>Subject: Re: Richard Hall

>>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 00:22:13 -0500
>>Subject: Richard Hall

>>Because Richard Hall has a financial need at the moment, perhaps
>>those who use UFO UpDates might contribute a few dollars to
>>cover any legal fees he has or may have to resolve his temporary
>>problem.

>>We're in for $100.

>>How about others who feel as we do that Mr. Hall should not have
>>to sell off his life's work to satisfy some debts?

>Glad somebody else did this... I pledge a hundred... and not
>restricted to legal fees... freakin' hookers and cheeseburgers
>if required.

Alfred...

You such the libertine... and that's a compliment.

I'm hoping Mr. Hall provides a mailing address so monies can be
sent directly to him, and he can decide how best to use it.


Rich Reynolds








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                         Re: Human Races - Dickenson

From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul>
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 14:10:16 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 17:20:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Human Races - Dickenson


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 14:30:08 -0400
>Subject: Re: Human Races

>If memory serves Ward and Browlee were documented on Nova or
>some other documentary regarding their theories, and I
>remembered thinking then that, as you say, their theories
>were homosapien egocentric. Their reasoning seemed much too
>narrow for what we know life can do when put under pressure.
>Monkeys and typewriters. The universe seems infinite,
>why not the possibility of life?

Hello Don & List

Right, it seems logical that life possibilities are going to be
wide in an infinitely varied universe (about which we know
almost nothing).

Those 'rare earth' & 'habitable zones' hypotheses try to
restrict life to conditions _we_ find comfortable. I.e. around 1
atmosphere pressure, temperature range of 20 / 40 degrees (C)
centered on about +10 degrees C, only carbon-based / oxygen
mediated, only RNA/DNA copied, only photo-synthesis (plants) for
food-chain base, etc, etc.

Well, opening our eyes we find life on Earth living in so-called
'non-habitable zones' - hydrothermal vents on deep sea-beds for
instance:

http://www.ocean.udel.edu/deepsea/level-2/geology/vents.html

where Earth bacteria and our own cousins - mollusks and
invertebrates (who share DNA patterns with _us_ - see
"thefly.txt") are happy under huge pressures, without photo-
synthesis, without free oxygen, in water full of "poisonous"
chemicals which emerges at 400 degrees C (750 F). And that's
just here in our own back-yard!

Why does the establishment seem so scared of thinking logically?
Maybe the answer's in "exosci.html" somewhere?


Cheers

Ray D

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Perceptions" http://www.perceptions.couk.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







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                          Re: Richard Hall - Groff

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 08:23:15 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 17:21:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Richard Hall - Groff


>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 00:22:13 -0500
>Subject: Richard Hall

>Because Richard Hall has a financial need at the moment, perhaps
>those who use UFO UpDates might contribute a few dollars to
>cover any legal fees he has or may have to resolve his temporary
>problem.

>We're in for $100.

Even though I lost my job of 13 years about a month ago I'm
still willing to contribute $20 to the cause. I know it's a
paltry sum but every little bit helps.

100% of any donations made to UFO Tools from now until the end of
the year 2004 will also be forwarded to Mr. Hall.

http://terrygroff.com/ufotools/support_ufo_tools.html

Please note that these donations to UFO Tools are not tax
deductible.


Terry Groff

Webmaster
Dallas-Fort Worth MUFON
http://mufondfw.com

Webmaster
UFO TOOLS
http://terrygroff.com/ufotools/

Ringmaster
The UFO/UAP Research Webring
http://x.webring.com/hub?ring=ufologicalresear

"The flash of light you saw in the sky was not a UFO.
Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket
and refracted the light from Venus"
- Agent 'K'






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             Re: Signs Of Intelligent Life On Titan? - Nellesen

From: Don Nellesen <don01.nul>
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 09:12:03 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 17:22:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Signs Of Intelligent Life On Titan? - Nellesen


>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 14:08:57 +0000 (GMT)
>Subject: Signs Of Intelligent Life On Titan?

>Whilst playing arround trying to extract more detail from the
>recent Titan Radar Map I noticed this:

>http://www.colsweb.com/TitanRadarExtract.htm

>among other things.

>If the large scale b/w map has color reversal in a good graphics
>programme, to bring out details in the shadows, other
>interesting things can be noticed too on closer inspection.

>Kind wishes to all,

>Col


I do hope I have the proper formatting now.

I see a plus sign "+" with a few degrees of rotation.
Maybe Titan is pregnant?

Don Nellesen
(ASD) MUFON GA







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                           Re: Richard Hall - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 15:35:07 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 17:24:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Richard Hall - Hall


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 07:13:55 -0600
>Subject: Re: Richard Hall

>>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 00:22:13 -0500
>>Subject: Richard Hall

>>Because Richard Hall has a financial need at the moment, perhaps
>>those who use UFO UpDates might contribute a few dollars to
>>cover any legal fees he has or may have to resolve his temporary
>>problem.

>>We're in for $100.

>>How about others who feel as we do that Mr. Hall should not have
>>to sell off his life's work to satisfy some debts?

>Glad somebody else did this... I pledge a hundred... and not
>restricted to legal fees... freakin' hookers and cheeseburgers
>if required.

Amazing! This is a philosophical opponent of mine with whom I
have clashed sharply on this List!


 - Dick








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                 Re: Access To UK Secret Files Threatened By

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 12:45:21 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 19:01:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Access To UK Secret Files Threatened By


>Source: The Daily Telegraph - UK

>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/10/25/nfiles25.xml

>25-10-04

>Access To Secret Files Threatened By Asbestos
>By Ben Fenton

>Up to 10 million pages of vital military secrets have been
>rendered unusable by exposure to asbestos - and experts say the
>contamination threatens the operation of the Freedom of
>Information Act.

Oh! Let me step in here on this subject!

Not to toot my own horn but over 30 years ago I was sitting at
the feet of a reknowned archaeologist and he was discussing the
ancient curses of the Pharoah's tombs. I being a studious one
suggested to him that perhaps long dead bacteria, pollen etc.
newly exposed could be the source of these mysterious illnesses.
He wrote a paper and got an award for it.

I did culture samples several years later and found all kinds of
icky stuff on library books, files, folders. Later on and up to
this day whenever I or any of my pals do some exploring the
masks are mandatory. There're all kinds of combinations of
deadly design that alone the biological material might be
harmless but in a mixture with today's chemicals turn into a
gruesome brew.

To note, molds!

My advice, if you're gonna go digging around old files, tombs,
even the neighbor's basement or attic, make sure it's well
ventilated and you're wearing a darned filter mask.


Best,

Greg








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                         Re: Beyond Roswell - Mantle

From: Philip Mantle <philip.nul>
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:38:05 -0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 19:05:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Beyond Roswell - Mantle


For those List members still interested in the alien autopsy
film you might like to know that I have up-dated our web site:

www.beyondroswell.com

with an article from Special Effects Artist Rob Townshend
(credits includes Star Wars Special Edition & Lord of the
Rings). Rob's expertise in movie effects makes for interesting
reading.

Simply click the new autopsy material icon.

Thanks,

Philip









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                          Secrecy News -- 11/08/04

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:32:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 19:09:25 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 11/08/04


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 98
November 8, 2004


**      A NON-DISCLOSURE AGREEMENT FOR UNCLASSIFIED INFO
**      DOD ON CLASSIFICATION MARKING, INFORMATION SHARING
**      PROTECTING AIRLINERS FROM TERRORIST MISSILES (CRS)


A NON-DISCLOSURE AGREEMENT FOR UNCLASSIFIED INFO

In a momentous expansion of the apparatus of government secrecy,
the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) is requiring employees
and others to sign legally binding non-disclosure agreements as
a condition of access to certain categories of unclassified
information.

Up to now, non-disclosure agreements have only been used by
government agencies to regulate access to classified
information. In fact, they are one of the defining features of
the national security classification system, along with security
clearances and the "need to know" principle. As far as Secrecy
News could determine, such classification-like controls have
never before been systematically imposed on access to
unclassified information.

But now at DHS a non-disclosure agreement must be executed in
order to gain access to any one of a panoply of new and existing
categories of unclassified information, including:

"For Official Use Only (FOUO); Official Use Only (OUO);
Sensitive Homeland Security Information (SHSI); Limited Official
Use (LOU); Law Enforcement Sensitive (LES); Safeguarding
Information (SGI); Unclassified Controlled Nuclear Information
(UCNI); and any other identifier used by other government
agencies to categorize information as sensitive but
unclassified."

The proliferation of controls on unclassified information
signifies a massive increase in government secrecy, particularly
since the number of officials who are authorized to designate
information in one of these categories dwarfs the number of
officials who can create classified information.

And while the classification system operates according to
certain well-defined rules and limitations, including procedures
for review and challenge of classification decisions, the same
is not true of the "sensitive but unclassified" domain.
Furthermore, there is nothing like the Information Security
Oversight Office to monitor and oversee the restriction of
unclassified information.

(Some types of sensitive but unclassified information are not
specifically protected by statute and can still be successfully
requested under the Freedom of Information Act. But with Justice
Department encouragement, agencies take an expansive view of the
scope of the Act's exemptions and access is increasingly
uncertain.)

The DHS non-disclosure agreement is apparently the first such
document crafted in the Bush Administration. It represents a new
high water mark in the rising tide of official secrecy.

A copy of DHS Form 11000-6, Non-Disclosure Agreement for
Sensitive But Unclassified Information, dated August 2004, was
obtained by Secrecy News and is posted here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/dhs-nda.pdf


DOD ON CLASSIFICATION MARKING, INFORMATION SHARING

The Department of Defense is revising the way that it marks
classified documents in order to facilitate appropriate sharing
of classified information with allies.

"In support of homeland security and coalition warfare we have
an increased need to share data with our foreign partners,"
wrote Stephen A. Cambone, Under Secretary of Defense for
Intelligence. "Our ability to share in a timely manner will
determine our ability to leverage our unmatched capabilities."

A copy of his September 27, 2004 memo identifying various
technical changes in classification marking policy is posted
here (thanks to RT):

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/dod/dod092704.pdf

"Please ensure widest dissemination," Mr. Cambone wrote.
Consider it done.

Last April, Mr. Cambone circulated revisions to the Pentagon's
information security program that will be incorporated in a
forthcoming DoD regulation on the subject (DoD 5200.1-R). An
attachment provided interim guidance on safeguarding controlled
unclassified information categories like FOUO, LES, SBU, etc.

See (36 pages, 1.2 MB PDF file):

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/dod/dod041604.pdf


PROTECTING AIRLINERS FROM TERRORIST MISSILES (CRS)

U.S. government officials acknowledged last weekend that
thousands of shoulder-fired surface-to-air missiles once held by
Saddam Hussein's Iraq are missing, as reported by the New York
Times (11/6/04) and the Washington Post (11/7/04).

The threat to civilian aviation posed by such missiles (formally
known as Man-Portable Air Defense Systems or MANPADs) was
addressed in a recently updated report from the Congressional
Research Service.

See "Homeland Security: Protecting Airliners from Terrorist
Missiles," October 22, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL31741.pdf



_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.


OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:
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_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood.nul
voice: (202) 454-4691









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              Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -

From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:31:27 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 19:11:24 -0500
Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -


>From: Daniel Guenther <daniel_g.nul-online.de>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 21:13:42 +0100
>Subject: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online

>As reported at:

>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/oct/m03-002.shtml

>a strange observation was made by Iindian scientists on a
>research trip.

>I found a photograph of the object which was taken by the group
>online:

>http://www.telegraphindia.com/1041011/asp/knowhow/story_3833729.asp

>Please note an interesting link about Himachal Pradesh, India,
>where the incident took place.

>http://www.ibiblio.org/himachal/geography.html


Well I finally had a little time to work on it.

I enhanced the above image as best that I could using a PC.

http://home.centurytel.net/cty90143/jpeg/india/100_0213EL.JPG

I would have to guess to say probably spy satellite? I can see
what appear to be two solar array panels positioned vertically
which intersect one end of the satellite. Do we see what appears
to be a round thing in the middle and a shadow second round
shadow of some sorts, could this be a focal lens sticking out?

<G>

The little lights maybe some background distortion associated
with the enhancement of the image, not really sure, it took
quite a bit of time to get it out this clear and a couple
software programs.


John





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                           Re: Richard Hall - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 22:43:07 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 19:14:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Richard Hall - Hall


>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 09:03:44 -0500
>Subject: Re: Richard Hall

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 07:13:55 -0600
>>Subject: Re: Richard Hall

<snip>

>>Glad somebody else did this... I pledge a hundred... and not
>>restricted to legal fees... freakin' hookers and cheeseburgers
>>if required.

>Alfred...

>You such the libertine... and that's a compliment.

>I'm hoping Mr. Hall provides a mailing address so monies can be
>sent directly to him, and he can decide how best to use it.


That's Mr. Lehmberg! It is a very uncomfortable feeling for me
to become a charity case at Age 74 (as of December 25). It
damages my self-respect and depresses the hell out of me, but
due to circumstances entirely out of my control I have to
swallow my pride and accept, gratefullly, contributions from the
rapidly diminishing population that understands and appreciates
my work, even though they may not agree with my interpretations.


Richard H. Hall
4418 39th Street
Brentwood, MD 20722-1021








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                         Re: Richard Hall - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:46:42 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 19:18:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Richard Hall - Lehmberg


>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 09:03:44 -0500
>Subject: Re: Richard Hall

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 07:13:55 -0600
>>Subject: Re: Richard Hall

>>>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 00:22:13 -0500
>>>Subject: Richard Hall

>>>Because Richard Hall has a financial need at the moment, perhaps
>>>those who use UFO UpDates might contribute a few dollars to
>>>cover any legal fees he has or may have to resolve his temporary
>>>problem.

>>>We're in for $100.

>>>How about others who feel as we do that Mr. Hall should not have
>>>to sell off his life's work to satisfy some debts?

>>Glad somebody else did this... I pledge a hundred... and not
>>restricted to legal fees... freakin' hookers and cheeseburgers
>>if required.

>Alfred...

>You such the libertine... and that's a compliment.


I don't think it's inappropriate that the entire freakin' List
respond in the manner that it can. I don't know the details, but
I would suspect that Mr. Hall is in the situation that he is in
because he bought into the implied impartiality and honor of the
cultural mainstream, not to put too fine a point on it, and was
left high and dry when the fat-rats cashed in an waltzed down
the anchor chain to waiting yachts.

Hall's put his professional ass on the line for decades over the
right thing, an impeccable honor, and a widely respected
scholarship. He is _exactly_ what our society says it wanted,
and he should not be punished for standing tall and filling its
bill. This goes way beyond piteous welfare, folks. This is
justice.


alienview.nul -:=A6:-
  www.AlienView.net








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                         Re: Richard Hall - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:58:04 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 19:20:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Richard Hall - Lehmberg


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul, r.hall90.nul
>Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 15:35:07 +0000
>Subject: Re: Richard Hall

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 07:13:55 -0600
>>Subject: Re: Richard Hall

<snip>

>>Glad somebody else did this... I pledge a hundred... and not
>>restricted to legal fees... freakin' hookers and cheeseburgers
>>if required.

>Amazing! This is a philosophical opponent of mine with whom I
>have clashed sharply on this List!


I'm only astonished that you are astonished, Mr. Hall.  A good
man, a fine man, a brave man... you more than deserve any good
thing that comes your way. And your road apple contention that
Mr. Oberg is a gentleman is _small_ disagreement, Sir. <g>


alienview.nul  -:=A6:-
   www.AlienView.net








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                   UFO boom - Unidentified Foreign Object

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 18:04:34 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 04:56:52 -0500
Subject: UFO boom - Unidentified Foreign Object


Source: EDP24

http://new.edp24.co.uk/content/News/story.aspx?brand=EDPOnline&category=News&tBr
and=edponline&tCategory=news&itemid=NOED08%20Nov%202004%2017%3A55%3A31%3A097

http://tinyurl.com/4qvvu (same as above)

11-08-04

UFO Boom - Unidentified Foreign Object

Edward Foss

A suspected sonic boom heard across north-east Norfolk today was
not caused by a British aircraft, it was confirmed tonight.

The loud bang, heard at least from Sheringham to Halvergate near
Yarmouth, startled hundreds of people going about their daily
business at around noon.

But a Ministry of Defence spokesman said it was not a domestic
fighter that caused the incident, although he was unable to
confirm the source of the sonic boom.

"We believe there was a sonic boom, but it was not a British
aircraft that caused it," said Lt Col Stuart Green. "It was not
one of ours."

Whether the aircraft was European or American was not clear, but
they would be the most likely suspects. But it would have been a
military aircraft, as no civilian plane is capable of going fast
enough to make a sonic boom.

A spokesman for the UK Civil Aviation Authority said the now out
of service Concorde was the only civilian craft that had ever
been able to travel fast enough to create the phenomenon.

North Norfolk MP Norman Lamb described how he had been sitting
in his office in North Walsham when he heard an "incredible
boom".

"The building shook and like many people I was shocked. I
thought 'has there been some sort of gas explosion?'"

Mr Lamb said he felt the "disturbing" incident begged questions
that needed to be answered. He pledged to approach ministers for
an explanation.

Ben Dunnell, assistant editor of Aircraft Illustrated and
formerly from Norfolk, said sonic booms were rare in the UK.
"There are regulations governing supersonic flight, but it is
not clear what happened on this occasion."

When the sonic boom was heard, windows and homes shook while
some people were reported to have been running for cover.

"I heard this enormous explosion," said John Hilton, who was in
Stalham at the time. One or two people were very worried,
although most realised fairly quickly what it probably was. But
I don't feel things like this should be happening."

Police and RAF bosses received scores of calls from those
concerned at the explosion.

A sonic boom is a loud noise generated when an aeroplane travels
faster than sound waves, which move at approximately 750mph at
sea level. Pressure waves merge to form shock waves, which are
heard as sonic booms when they hit the ground.

Although there has been no official confirmation of the noise
being a sonic boom, a spokesman at RAF Coltishall said there had
been an assumption it was. He added that the Ministry of Defence
in London was handling the investigation into the incident.

A spokeswoman for Norfolk police said it was possible the noise
was a sonic boom and that the investigation was in the hands of
the RAF.

The noise was heard in Overstrand momentarily before it was
heard in Cromer, suggesting it came from an aircraft travelling
east to west.







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                        Re: Orb Study Site - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:40:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 05:04:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Orb Study Site - Maccabee


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 14:50:00 -0600
>Subject: Re: Orb Study Site

>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 02:50:00 -0800
>>Subject: Re: Orb Study Site

>>From: Ellis C Taylor <ellistayla.nul>

<snip>

>If you are out late in the evening and bring along your camera,
>take a few random shots with the flash, but instead of looking
>through the viewfinder, hold the camera at belt level. Watch the
>area ahead of you when the flash fires. You will usually see
>small reflections in the wash of light. You will typically find
>orbs in such a photograph. If you see no reflections, you will
>probably not have orbs. That's one way a person can roughly
>"predict" when another has imaged an orb. My camera has an LCD
>screen, so I can frame the shot and watch the scene at the same
>time. In my experiments, I was able to reliably predict when I'd >
>have a decent orb shot simply by watching for the telltale
>flashes I saw in the area immediately in front of the lens.

It may be easier to see reflections from tiny particles in front
of the camera lens if you hold the camera at eye level but look
past the camera...not through the view finder. The
backscattering reflection, which it what would be seen in this
case, is usually the strongest reflection from any object (other
than a grazing angle reflection which occurs when one looks at
the source of light).

Rods are generally small objects seen "backlighted" with the
forward scattering ("forward gloss") reflection being extremely
strong. This explains why people get good "rod" results by
photographing the sky while having the sun just barely blocked
by a roof or some other edge.










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              Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 18:57:43 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 05:06:10 -0500
Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -


>From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:31:27 -0600
>Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online

>>From: Daniel Guenther <daniel_g.nul-online.de>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 21:13:42 +0100
>>Subject: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online

>>As reported at:

>>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/oct/m03-002.shtml

>>a strange observation was made by Iindian scientists on a
>>research trip.

>>I found a photograph of the object which was taken by the group
>>online:

>>http://www.telegraphindia.com/1041011/asp/knowhow/story_3833729.asp

<snip>

>Well I finally had a little time to work on it.

>I enhanced the above image as best that I could using a PC.

>http://home.centurytel.net/cty90143/jpeg/india/100_0213EL.JPG

>I would have to guess to say probably spy satellite? I can see
>what appear to be two solar array panels positioned vertically
>which intersect one end of the satellite. Do we see what appears
>to be a round thing in the middle and a shadow second round
>shadow of some sorts, could this be a focal lens sticking out?

><G>

>The little lights maybe some background distortion associated
>with the enhancement of the image, not really sure, it took
>quite a bit of time to get it out this clear and a couple
>software programs.


I did a 1000% blow up using a lanczos filter and it sure looks
like balloons to me.

The 'dangles' appear to be balloons that have deflated but are
still attached to the rest

http://terrygroff.com/images/100_0213_1000.jpg


Terry








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                    Richard Hall - Alien Invasion 1966-67

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:58:54 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 05:08:32 -0500
Subject: Richard Hall - Alien Invasion 1966-67


Hello all:

Some months back, Dr. Hall and I discussed the relative sizes of
sightings waves due to his newest book:

Alien Invasion or Human Fantasy?
The 1966-1967 UFO Wave.

I had it that 1973 was the biggest year since the 1950s. After
working with this new book, for three months now, I'm about 2/3
of the way through. (Its slow going looking up coordinates etc.)

Already, 1967 has surpassed 1973 in my database! In short, I was
wrong.

This is not your typical junk-box collection of night lights and
similar, but one of the best single resources I ever came
across.

Once done in another month or so, I will have to generate new
*U* Database maps and statistics screens for my website to show
the differences.

If you don't have a copy of Alien Invasion, get one.

Richard Hall can provide the particulars:

Brentwood Press/Richard H. Hall
4418 39th Street Brentwood,
MD 20722-1021

Published July 2004, Fund for UFO Research (FUFOR) Washington,
DC.

Meanwhile, I'm sending a check in partial payment for books Sir
R. sent me for FREE in the past, including this one. I suggest
others do the same or better.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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                         Re: Richard Hall - Matteson

From: Gary Matteson <mystrius.nul>
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:23:38 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 05:12:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Richard Hall - Matteson


>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 00:22:13 -0500
>Subject: Richard Hall


>Because Richard Hall has a financial need at the moment,....

At this late date (at age 65) I am currently an advocate for
senior citizens. I believe in being of service.  My contribution
to help Mr. Richard Hall will be in tomorrow's mail with thanks
to Rich Reynolds for the kindly mention of need and the members
of UFO Updates encouragement.


Gary Matteson

Member: MUFON/CUFOS
MUFON SSD and Webmaster for MUFON-NE
http://www.geocities.com/sparky_from_nebraska/Unofficial_MUFON-NE






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                         Re: Richard Hall - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:00:12 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 05:17:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Richard Hall - Connors


Fellow Listarians,

Richard Hall has been my friend for a long while now. We
disagree on many points in Ufology, but agree on just as many.
He is, in fact, my mentor. OK, my Aristotle, in Ufology. I'm I
very proud to admit it!

Damn, but he's taught me a great deal and I hope I have been a
good student and fellow researcher.

You see, Dick is a living and walking history of where we, as
the interested masses in Ufology, began and currently reside.

I've read the criticisms directed against him on this List and
others. Although I grit my teeth and hold it at times, I know
Dick can well defend himself against anybody else's slings and
arrows.

I know the true story behind Dick's current woes and I was
saddened that he had to swallow his pride and go public for
help. I'm sorry you had to do this my friend. I know how
difficult it was to do.

As to everyone even mildly interested in Ufology as your
mountains of words on UFO UpDates attest, it is your time to
literally put up or shut up, as to how much Ufology means to
you.

Trust me, there are not many of the first Ufologists with us.
Dick is a fountain of knowledge, stories and humor. Send as much
as you can initially to Dick and remember each Christmas and
June 24 a nice monetary donation. If you're rich, a big cheque to
our living history of Ufology. The rest of us (we used to have a
middle class...sigh), go without a weeks worth of entertainment
and send the same whenever you use his vast published works to
enhance your own research.

Why?

Because he is the grandfather of Ufology just as Major Keyhoe
was the founder. Everyone has to bite the bullet and actually
follow through. This time, no choice... do it.

It'll make you feel Good and make your own research more
rewarding.


Wendy Connors
www.fadeddiscs.com







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                       Re: Limboids - Reynolds - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:30:34 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 05:18:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Limboids - Reynolds - King


>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 13:10:25 -0500
>Subject: Re: Limboids - Reynolds

><snip>

>Speaking of photos, Kyle...

>We have a nagative film strip from the 50s which shows a
>v-formation of UFOs.

>I don't know how to scan or reproduce the negative for insertion
>at one of our web-sites for viewing here, but we're trying to do
>that.

>We can reproduce the photo, but I think the negative might prove
>more valuable - for authentication.


Hi Rich,

I have had good success scanning negatives with my scanner. You
need to scan at a high resolution (600dpi plus) to get the image
large enough. In Photoshop, you have the option of _inverting_
the image, which will give a rough color-corrected positive from
the negative.

Once the image is approximately color-accurate, Brightness,
Contrast, Levels and Color Balance can all be finely adjusted.

I am still engaged in scanning the Brunswick book, but am hoping
to get a scanner which includes a negative carrier as well as a
faster scan rate. This should happen in the next two weeks.

If you find the negative too vexing, I'd be happy to scan it for
you. You should try it first though, as it should scan fairly
reasonably. If you get a good TIFF scan, and need additional
software, I can offer to process the image if you'll post it on
your web.

Best Regards,

Kyle







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                        Pilot's Estate Files Lawsuit

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 05:26:00 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 05:26:00 -0500
Subject: Pilot's Estate Files Lawsuit




Source: The Mobile Register - Alabama

http://www.al.com/news/mobileregister/index.ssf?/base/news/1099822565151290.xml

11-07-04


Pilot's Estate Files Lawsuit In Unexplained 2003 Air Crash

By Joe Danborn
Staff Reporter

Two years after Tommy Preziose's plane plunged 3,000 feet out
of the dusk into the Mobile-Tensaw Delta, federal investigators
still can't say whether it broke apart on impact with the marsh
or whether something slammed into it before it ever hit the
ground.

The eerie details of Preziose's final moments remain an enigma
and a source of contention within the National Transportation
Safety Board and have sparked a $76 million wrongful death
lawsuit against the federal government.

In an uprecedented finding, Butch Wilson, the veteran NTSB
investigator originally assigned to the case, said in a
preliminary report released in April that the plane collided
with an unknown object in mid-air. NTSB supervisors in
Washington, D.C., called Wilson's conclusion premature and began
their own investigation, which hasn't wrapped up.

One possible cause of the Oct. 23, 2003, crash that both Wilson
and the other NTSB officials ruled out was precisely the one
posed in the lawsuit, which was filed Oct. 25 in federal court
in Mobile. Lawyers for Preziose's estate claim air traffic
controllers steered him into the tornado-like wake of a FedEx
DC-10.

A document accompanying the lawsuit accuses Federal Aviation
Administration employees of failing "to provide adequate
vertical as well as horizontal separatioclearance from the
'heavy DC-10.'" They also did not issue "the required warnings
to Mr. Preziose of the clear and present danger of the wake
turbulence he would experience," the document claims.

Wilson's report, however, noted that the DC-10 was flying 1,000
feet higher than Preziose's Cessna 208B Cargomaster. Moreover,
the report said, the two planes never crossed paths. The
northeast-bound Cessna would have had to have been behind the
southbound DC-10 at some point to have been battered by the
disturbed air left by the larger plane.

"Radar data shows that the C-208 was not in a position to
encounter the wake turbulence from nearby DC-10," an NTSB update
declared in June.

Making a mystery:

While the preliminary report ruled out wake turbulence, it
touched off a mystery by concluding the Cessna collided with
something in mid-air. Wilson, who is based in Atlanta, had the
Air Force conduct tests to identify possible sources of nearly
three dozen red polymer smears found on the outside of the
fuselage. Those marks formed a large part of the theory that
helped make this one of the stranger investigations in the
agency's annals.

Wilson had the marks tested against a swatch of red fabric from
inside the plane, a piece of a red cargo bag, even a military
drone. Nothing matched. Ultimately, the markings and the severe
damage to the plane's engine helped convince him something
struck the plane, his report indicated.

No confirmed wreckage from any other plane has been found and no
other planes were reported missing at the time. Members of the
search crews who retrieved the relatively few large pieces of
the plane said it could not have come down in a softer spot --
 two or three feet of water atop 8 to 10 feet of "puff mud."

Nevertheless, Doug Hardy, an investigator for Pratt & Whitney
who examined the wreckage, said recently that the engine block
appeared to have slammed into something solid.

"It hit something hard," he said, "because the engine was split.
It actually came apart."

There was no evidence that the engine failed, he said.

Wreckage reclaimed:

By the time Wilson's account was posted, the wreckage had been
turned over to the United States Aircraft Insurance Group. After
the Mobile Register reported Wilson's findings, NTSB higher-ups
took the unusual step of reclaiming the plane's remains and
having it sent to the agency's academy in Ashburn, Va., for
further review. Keith Holloway, an NTSB spokesman, said last
week that investigators have completed computer simulations of
the crash. The agency is waiting on the chemical analysis of
samples from some 20 possible sources of the red marks, he said.

Wilson had been unable to identify the source of a chunk of
black metal embedded in one of the Cessna's wings. Investigators
have since decided it came from inside the cockpit.

Wilson's supervisors haven't disavowed his assessment -- a mid-
air collision. The problem they have with it, according to
Holloway, was that they felt it came too soon.

"That's a statement that is a conclusion," he said, "and we
aren't at a point in this investigation to make any type of
conclusion."

Wilson declined to discuss the case in detail.

Preziose, a 54-year-old who lived in Mobile, was an experienced
pilot familiar with the plane and the area. No one has suggested
that the mildly overcast skies were a factor, and the plane had
passed a routine maintenance check days earlier.

Flying for DHL Worldwide Express with the call sign Night Ship
282, Preziose took off from Mobile Downtown Airport at Brookley
with 420 pounds of business letters. Air traffic control
recordings and radar data indicated his ascent to his cruising
altitude of 3,000 feet was uneventful.

'I need to deviate':

Around 7:45 p.m., Wilson's report states, Preziose had the
second of two exchanges with an air traffic controller about the
location of the DC-10, acknowledging he saw it above him and
more than a mile away. Seconds later, he burst on the radio
repeating, "I needed to deviate." The transmission cut off when
he was saying it a fourth time, right about the time the plane
vanished from radar.

Preziose's sister, Moira Wade, is also a pilot and has visited
the crash site numerous times collecting debris from the plane.
She thinks her brother knew he would not survive and that his
last words were meant to give investigators a clue to what
happened, that he had to make an emergency maneuver to avoid
something.

The lawsuit suggests Preziose's words were a correction to the
air traffic controllers, that they should have sent him on a
different flight path. NTSB officials have not publicly
addressed the significance of the words.

Down in the Delta:

Preziose's remains were found amid the wreckage in Big Bateau
Bay in the W.L. Holland Wildlife Management Area, a locale
popular with hunters seeking ducks and boar. The spot is near
Spanish Fort and about a mile north of the Causeway.

Documents filed in Mobile County Circuit Court last fall on
behalf of Preziose's estate named FedEx and Cessna as potential
defendants, though the estate's lawyers apparently backed off
that course. Greg Breedlove, one of the lawyers for the estate,
downplayed the significance of the red marks.

"We believe that the markings were already on the plane before
the accident," perhaps from the Cessna being grazed by airport
ground equipment, he said last month.

Lawyers for the FAA had not filed a response to the lawsuit as
of Wednesday.

Holloway offered no timetable for the final report.
Investigators have been stretched particularly thin lately, he
said. It was only last week that the agency issued its report on
the Nov. 12, 2001, crash of American Airlines Flight 587, which
killed 265 people in the New York City borough of Queens. And
investigators also haven't released their findings on the April
24, 2003, crash at Brookley that killed pilot Marvin T.
Anderson, 44, of Atlanta.

As for what happened to Night Ship 282, "It's gonna be a while
before we have a conclusion on this investigation," Holloway
said.


[UFO UpDates thanks Stuart Miller for the lead]





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                      Crank Calls Fear Over Freedom Act

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 05:29:01 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 05:29:01 -0500
Subject: Crank Calls Fear Over Freedom Act




Source: The Daily Telegraph - UK

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;sessionid=LDV5IAVHUTXFNQFIQMGSM5OAVCB
QWJVC?xml=/news/2004/11/08/ninfo08.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/11/08/ixhome.html

11-08-04


Crank Calls Fear Over Freedom Act
By Ben Fenton

Academics are becoming increasingly concerned that their work
will be hampered rather than helped by the Freedom of
Information Act.

Fears are growing that a flood of requests from cranks and
obsessives seeking information about subjects such as UFOs and
the Royal Family will prevent civil servants from dealing with
normal inquiries from historians and other academics trying to
pursue their studies.

The Government has made no extra money available for the
introduction of the Act's full measures on Jan 1.

The Department of Constitutional Affairs has told all government
departments and the National Archives, which is expected to
handle the bulk of requests under the Act, that the new
legislation must be "resource-neutral".

As a result, any extra staff hours required to answer
information requests from the public must be found from within
existing budgets and no extra money will be available. Prof
Richard Aldrich, of Nottingham University, told a meeting of
historians and civil servants last week: "There is a real
concern among historians that insufficient resources are being
made available, especially to deal with requests for information
that does not exist.

"Freedom of Information is open to everybody, of course, which
means it is open to use or misuse by lobby groups such as those
who are interested in UFOs or the Royal Household or suchlike."

Addressing Lady Ashton, the minister responsible for the
introduction of the Act, he said: "I think there are real
possibilities that the serious, genuine, normal people like us
will be locked down by the lobby groups."

Lady Ashton was unaware of any resource issues affecting the
introduction and was sure the dedicated staff responsible would
be able to balance the needs of all groups.

Gill Bennett, the chief historian at the Foreign Office, told
the meeting that it was her experience that people who believed
in conspiracy theories would be hard to convince.

"Unless we take them round our shelves and show them, which we
obviously can't do, it is not easy to prove the non-existence of
secrets," she said.

Historians pointed to the enormous interest in the 1901 Census
which, when made available online at the National Archives in
2002, caused the website to crash.

Civil servants have interpreted the Act to say that they should
be "purpose blind" when considering requests to see secret
files. Sources at the National Archives in Kew privately confirm
that there is a concern about staffing levels and government
departments share their worries.

One departmental records officer, who asked not to be named,
said: "The fact is that nobody knows what will happen on the
first working day after Jan 1 and whether we get a ripple of
interest or a tidal wave. We can deal with one but not with the
other."

25 October 2004: Access to secret files threatened by asbestos


[UFO UpDates thanks Stuart Miller for the lead]








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                                UFO Monthly?

From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 10:11:39 +0000 (GMT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 05:32:12 -0500
Subject: UFO Monthly?


UFO Monthly gone? If not, where�s it hiding?

http://www.ufomonthly.com

UFO Monthly was a UK based on-line magazine set up by Gary
Heseltine and Russel Callaghan after the demise of UFO Magazine
UK.  A couple of months ago, Russel stepped down and Gary was
left to run the zine on his own. Over the last couple of weeks,
Gary had obviously been redesigning the site, presumably for a
re-launch, and had clearly put a lot of work into it.

However, for the last 4 or 5 days, the site has been down and
when you key the URL, you get the Home page of the host.

Anyone have any ideas?


Stuart Miller
http://www.uforeview.net/









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                       On The 70th Anniversary of Carl

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 05:37:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 05:37:09 -0500
Subject: On The 70th Anniversary of Carl




Source: The Planetary Society

http://planetary.org/news/2004/nye_sagan.html

11-09-04


On The 70th Anniversary of Carl Sagan=92s Birth
by Bill Nye

In the 1970=92s, two soon-to-be-world-renowned popularizers of
science crossed paths at Cornell University =97 where Carl Sagan
was a professor of astronomy and Bill Nye was an engineering
student. From his class with Carl, Bill came away with an
abiding passion for planetary exploration. Two decades later,
that passion led him to join the Board of Directors of The
Planetary Society. Today, as we announce the launch date for the
Cosmos 1 solar sail, Bill remembers Carl and his influence.

Sitting in Professor Sagan=92s astronomy class around the time the
Viking spacecraft landed on Mars, I felt myself become a
believer. It=92s our destiny to explore space and, if possible, go
out into it =97 the Cosmic Ocean.

Dr. Sagan often pointed out, "When you=92re in love, you want to
tell the world." Carl Sagan loved stars. He believed we should
enlarge our place among them. Living as he did during the Cold
War, rockets to space were always associated with what is
euphemistically called "defense." He was generally opposed to
space weapons. Instead, for him, space was the place to unite
humankind in a common quest to know ourselves and our place in
the Cosmos. To make sure this quest continued, he helped found
The Planetary Society 25 years ago this month.

In his lectures and writings, Dr. Sagan told the world that we
humans have been watching the stars around us ever since there
have been humans. He believed that we should do more than just
watch the sky; we should go there ourselves. For this, he
popularized the idea that we could navigate to the stars in a
way not unlike the way our ship-borne ancestors used the wind to
traverse the seas. We could sail using the pressure of photons
from the Sun to drive our ships among the planets. This long-
dreamed-of time is upon us. This spring, The Planetary Society
will launch the Cosmos 1 solar sail from a former Soviet
submarine using a rocket built for the Cold War. Cosmos 1 will
orbit in the nearby reaches of space between the Earth and our
Moon. To announce and celebrate the launch today, on the 70th
anniversary of Carl Sagan=92s birth, is a wonderful thing indeed.

You, as a Planetary Society member, are involved and deeply
connected with this launch and the exploration of space. Thanks
for your support.

To be a part of space exploration
Join The Planetary Society Today!:

https://planetary.org/JoinUs.html



[UFO UpDates thanks Stuart Miller for the lead]






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                  UFOs In India's Heaven Of Culture & Arts!

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 05:43:23 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 05:43:23 -0500
Subject: UFOs In India's Heaven Of Culture & Arts!




Source: India Daily

http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/11-08g-04.asp

11-08-04


Close Encounters - UFOs and Alien Presence In India's Heaven Of
Culture And Arts!

By Sudipta Guha
Special Correspondent

Country side village residents near Boalput in West Bengal are
reporting strange activities in the sky surrounding the Nobel
Laureate Rabindranath Tagore's heaven of cultire and arts - the
Vishwabharati University in Shantiniketan!

According to poor villagers, these are "Gods" from heavens who
really like to understand world's most spophisticated and
advanced culture of arts and litterature. UFO sighting, presence
of alliens in the area is being reported. According to sources,
the University is tight lipped about anything. However, it seems
something is going on there specially in the India-China
cultural center.

According to some, the aliens are trying to understand
creativity and excellence in arts and litteratire. The UFO
sightings in India specially in the Hamalayas has increased very
heavily in recent days.

UFO presence around Shantiniketan is not new. But the number of
UFOs now are so high that villagers are experiencing them every
day. Yound children are reporting seeing aliens.

Why are UFOs and aliens flocking towards Shantiniketan? The
answer may lie in what Shantiniketan is! It is the cultural
heaven of India for arts and litterature. India's all prominent
figures starting form Indira Gandhi to Nobel laurete Amartya Sen
as well world renowned film maker Satyajit Ray are students of
Vishwavharati University in Shatiniketan. It is the heart beat
of culture and arts in the east.


[UFO UpDates thanks Stuart Miller for the lead]








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                   Birmingham University's New Crypto Dept

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 05:55:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 05:55:03 -0500
Subject: Birmingham University's New Crypto Dept





"This is truly fabulous. This is one of the best wind ups I have
ever come across and whoever did it, congratulations as its
brilliant.

http://www.cryptozoology.bham.ac.uk/

Errr, apparently, Birmingham University have a new Cryptozoology
department."


Stuart Miller
http://www.uforeview.net







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                         Re: Richard Hall - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 05:01:30 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 06:07:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Richard Hall - Lehmberg


>From: Gary Matteson <mystrius.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:23:38 -0600
>Subject: Re: Richard Hall

>>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 00:22:13 -0500
>>Subject: Richard Hall

>>Because Richard Hall has a financial need at the moment,....

>At this late date (at age 65) I am currently an advocate for
>senior citizens. I believe in being of service. My contribution
>to help Mr. Richard Hall will be in tomorrow's mail with thanks
>to Rich Reynolds for the kindly mention of need and the members
>of UFO Updates encouragement.


Hot damn, but it's good to be a human being on days like this.

To really put a point on it, though, it is not 'need' being
accommodated so much as 'service' being recognized.

Hall was in at the very start of the modern era on this thing we
are all in (to one degree or another), provided, with no small
sacrifice I might add, the needed potting soil for an unblinking
look at it, and then facilitated the thinking and activity for
its greatest contributors.....

This is not hand-out... this is due.

Moreover - those who want a convenient way to recompensate Mr.
Hall can use my PayPal Account (minus only the fee PayPal
charges for the transaction) at:

http://www.alienview.net/help.html

Specify "For Richard Hall" during the transaction.


alienview.nul -:=A6:-
  www.AlienView.net








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              Re: Richard Hall - Alien Invasion 1966-67 - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 11:47:26 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 07:17:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Richard Hall - Alien Invasion 1966-67 - Hall


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:58:54 -0800
>Subject: Richard Hall - Alien Invasion 1966-67

>Some months back, Dr. Hall and I discussed the relative sizes of
>sightings waves due to his newest book:

>Alien Invasion or Human Fantasy?
>The 1966-1967 UFO Wave.

>I had it that 1973 was the biggest year since the 1950s. After
>working with this new book, for three months now, I'm about 2/3
>of the way through. (Its slow going looking up coordinates etc.)

>Already, 1967 has surpassed 1973 in my database! In short, I was
>wrong.

>This is not your typical junk-box collection of night lights and
>similar, but one of the best single resources I ever came
>across.

>Once done in another month or so, I will have to generate new
>*U* Database maps and statistics screens for my website to show
>the differences.

>If you don't have a copy of Alien Invasion, get one.

>Richard Hall can provide the particulars:

>Brentwood Press/Richard H. Hall
>4418 39th Street Brentwood,
>MD 20722-1021

>Published July 2004, Fund for UFO Research (FUFOR) Washington,
>DC.

>Meanwhile, I'm sending a check in partial payment for books Sir
>R. sent me for FREE in the past, including this one. I suggest
>others do the same or better.


Larry,

Thanks for the honorary PhD. I suppose that I have earned it!

Just to clarify who can order what and where:

Alien Invasion, the 1966-67 UFO Wave -

Fund for UFO Research,
P.O. Box 277, Mt. Rainier,
MD 20712.

$28.00. (Or see their web site:

http://www.fufor.com

for PayPal link.)


The UFO Evidence, Vol. II - Scarecrow Press

http://www.scarecrowpress.com

As I recall, you receive something like an automatic 15%
discount for ordering it online.

I also have a large collection of duplicate UFO books of my own
and an even larger collection belonging to Dr. John Carlson that
I am selling on his behalf and will receive 15% of each sale.

Anyone who would like to have a partial price list can e-mail
me privately at dh12.nul and I will send a list by MS Word
attachment. Inquiries about specific book titles available or
PayPal payments to me can be sent via this e-mail address. The
mailing address above is correct, except that Brentwood Press
does not have to be included. Thats the name of my (very) small
business.

My thanks to those of you who are showing me many kindnesses.
Various plans are being discussed that would preserve my files,
including some that would allow me to remain as curator of them
for a few more years and arrange for gradual transfer of
ownershiip and preservation thereafter.

 - Dick Hall








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             Re: Richard Hall - Alien Invasion 1966-67 - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:26:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 13:57:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Richard Hall - Alien Invasion 1966-67 - Kaeser


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 11:47:26 +0000
>Subject: Re: Richard Hall - Alien Invasion 1966-67

<snip>

>Just to clarify who can order what and where:

>Alien Invasion, the 1966-67 UFO Wave -

>Fund for UFO Research,
>P.O. Box 277, Mt. Rainier,
>MD 20712.

>$28.00. (Or see their web site:

>http://www.fufor.com

>for PayPal link.)

Hi Richard and list,

To clarify more, The Fund for UFO Research does not have a
PayPal link on it's web page, but I have been willing to use my
account to transfer funds as needed to the Fund to facilitate
Internet sales.

If anyone would like to purchase Richard's work, or any of the
other publications offered by the Fund, please forward a list to
me and I can generate a payment link in a reply message.


Steve Kaeser
Executive Committee
Fund for UFO Research








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                           Re: Richard Hall - Wise

From: William M. Wise <will.nul>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:08:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 13:58:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Richard Hall - Wise


Dr. Hall:

Would it be possible to send donations to you via your PayPal
account at dh12.nul? If so, this might be quite
convenient for other members of UFO UpDates as well.

Thanks much for your decades of work and take care,


William Wise








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                    I'm After The Aliens That Beat Up Bob

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 14:01:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 14:01:58 -0500
Subject: I'm After The Aliens That Beat Up Bob





Source: The Scotsman - Edinburgh

http://news.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=1294002004

11-09-04


I'm After The Aliens That Beat Up Bob...

Gareth Edwards

It was a terrifying close encounter which led to the only case
in British history of an alien sighting being the subject of a
criminal investigation.

Exactly 25 years later, the case is still open on forestry
worker Bob Taylor�s brush with mysterious alien spheres on
Dechmont Law.

Now, on the anniversary of the event, UFO enthusiasts are set to
descend on the site, to show that the truth really is out there.

They have arranged to visit the site today to meditate in
silence at the exact time of Mr Taylor�s encounter.

The event has been organised by paranormal investigator Ron
Halliday, chairman of Scottish Earth Mysteries Research, who
believes the encounter to be one of the most significant events
in the history of ufology.

It is certainly one of the best- documented, and to this day
defies rational explanation.

On November 9, 1979, at around 10.30am, Mr Taylor, then a
forestry worker employed by the Livingston Development
Corporation, parked his truck at the bottom of Dechmont Law.

He walked up the lower slope of the hill with his dog, and as he
emerged into a clearing saw a large, circular, sphere-like
object about 20 feet across.

Mr Taylor said it appeared to be made from a dark metallic
material with a rough texture like sandpaper.

As he approached the object, two spheres, each about three feet
wide with protruding metal spikes like old naval mines, dropped
from the object.

The two spheres rolled towards him and despite his dog barking
furiously, attached themselves to his trousers. There was an
acrid smell that caused him to choke and he felt a sensation of
being grabbed by the side of the legs and tugged forward.

The next thing Mr Taylor remembered was waking up with his head
pounding, a sore throat, and a bitter taste in his mouth. He
later calculated that he had been unconscious for at least 20
minutes.

"I was completely devastated afterwards," he recalled. "I
couldn�t walk and the doctor came to look at me. We went back
with the police and found all these marks where it had been."

The police found unusual indentations in the ground, ladder-
shaped marks where the craft was said to have stood, and marks
following the path of the mine-like objects.

They said they were "completely baffled" by the incident, which
was treated as an assault.

Now 87, Mr Taylor moved away from the area after the event, but
on the eve of the anniversary he revealed it was still in his
thoughts.

"I stand by every word of my account of the incident," he said.

"I told it as it happened and it�s as clear as yesterday. It is
the most amazing thing that ever happened to me.

"I know what I saw and it looked like a spaceship, a huge flying
dome. I�m not surprised there has been so much interest in it
over the years as it was such an incredible thing to happen."

Mr Halliday believes going back to the site on the anniversary
could yield some clues to the nature of the encounter, and has
not ruled out the possibility of once again making contact.

"We want to go back to the site to mark this anniversary and
perhaps by being there we will be able to make contact again
with whatever it was Bob Taylor saw," he said.

"It is possible that this was something from another dimension
which for a short period of time appeared in our world. That
fits with what Taylor saw, as he said the object appeared solid
but at brief moments was shimmering and partially transparent.

"Even sceptics believe he is telling the truth about what he
saw, and no explanation has been given to what it could have
been."

Mr Taylor�s encounter took place on the edge of the area known
as the Falkirk triangle, one of the most "visited" UFO hotspots
in the world. Around 300 UFOs are seen in Scotland each year,
the highest concentration of UFO sightings on the planet.







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              Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:53:17 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 14:06:54 -0500
Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -


>From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:31:27 -0600
>Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online

>>http://www.telegraphindia.com/1041011/asp/knowhow/story_3833729.asp

>Well I finally had a little time to work on it.

>I would have to guess to say probably spy satellite? I can see
>what appear to be two solar array panels positioned vertically
>which intersect one end of the satellite. Do we see what appears
>to be a round thing in the middle and a shadow second round
>shadow of some sorts, could this be a focal lens sticking out?

What would a spy satellite be doing at such a low 'orbit'? It
looks like it is a few feet off the ground (I mean you can see
the rocks in the background).

Do you know the speed it would be going to be in orbit? If you
are suggesting it is a crashed satellite, it is unlikely that
the remains would be anything less than a crater.

Unless you have defined "satellite" differently than I, I do not
think it could possibly be a satellite.

A balloon seems much more likely. Whether it is lost or a spy
craft or weather/science balloon, who can tell?








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                       Books For Sale By Richard Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 09:05:19 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 14:15:27 -0500
Subject: Books For Sale By Richard Hall


This is only a partial list, so people can query about other
titles they might be looking for:


UFO Book Prices
(Hardcovers)

Allingham, Cedric. Flying Saucers From Mars. NY: British Book
Centre, 1955. $12.00

Berlitz & Moore. The Roswell Incident. Grosset & Dunlap, 1980.
$4.00-$8.00

Bethurum, Truman. Aboard a Flying Saucer. Los Angeles: DeVorss,
1954. VG $12.00

David, Jay. Flying Saucer Reader. New American Library, 1967.
$7.00

Druffel, Ann. Tujunga Canyon Contacts. Prentice-Hall, 1980.
$13.00-$18.00

Edwards, Frank. Flying Saucers Serious Business. N.Y.: Lyle
Stuart, 1966. $8.00-$15.00;  $20-$24

Edwards, Frank. Flying Saucers Here and Now. N.Y.: Lyle Stuart,
1967. $8.00

Fawcett, Larry & Barry Greenwood. Clear Intent. Prentice-Hall,
1984. $7.00-$10.00; VG/VG $35.00; 1st Ed. $40-$50

Fuller, John. Incident At Exeter. NY: Putnams, 1966. $14.00-
$24.00

Fuller, John. Interrupted Journey. NY: Dial Press, 1966. $10.00-
$20.00; $30.00

Fuller, John. Aliens In the Skies. NY: Putnams, 1969. $15.00.-
$25.00

Gibbons, Gavin. They Rode in Spaceships. NY: Citadel, 1967.
$14.00

Good, Timothy. Above Top Secret. NY: Wm. Morrow, 1988. $7.00-
$20.00

Haines, Richard F.  Observing UFOs. Chicago: Nelson-Hall, 1980.
$25.00; $40.00-$50.00

Heard, Gerald. Is Another World Watching? Harper, 1951. $10.00

Keyhoe, Donald E. Flying Saucers From Outer Space. NY: Holt,
1953. $13.00; w/dj $15.00-$25.00

Keyhoe, Donald  E.  Flying Saucers: Top Secret. NY: Putnams,
1960. $10.00-$35.00

Klass, Philip J. UFOs-Identified. NY: Random House, 1968. $12.00

Lore, Gordon I.R. & Harold Deneault. Mysteries of the Skies:
UFOs in Perspective. Prentice-Hall, 1968. $15.00-$20.00; $24.00

Maney, Charles A. & Richard Hall. Challenge of Unidentified
Flying Objects, 1961. $25.00-$30.00; $35.00

Menzel, Donald H. & Lyle G. Boyd. The World of Flying Saucers.
NY: Doubleday, 1963. $8.00-$10.00

Michel, Aime. The Truth About Flying Saucers. NY: Criterion,
1956. $9.00-$15.00; $17.00-$20.00

Michel, Aime. Flying Saucers and the Straight Line Mystery. NY:
Criterion, 1958. $18.00-$20.00; $28.00-$40.00

Peters, Ted. UFOs: God's Chariots? Atlanta: John Knox Press,
1977. $35.00-$42.00

Ruppelt, Edward J. Report on Unidentified Flying Objects. NY:
Doubleday, 1956. $8.00; $10.00-$15.00

Sanderson, Ivan T. Uninvited Visitors. Cowles, 1967. 1st ed.
$22.00

Saunder, David R. & R. Roger Harkins. UFOs? Yes!  World Book,.
1968. $12.00-$20.00; $25.00-$30.00

Scully, Frank. Behind the Flying Saucers. NY: Holt, 1950.
$60.00-$100.00

Stringfield, Leonard R. Situation Red. NY: Doubleday, 1977. 1st
ed. $14.00

Vallee, Jacques. Challenge to Science. Chicago: Regnery, 1966.
$12.00-$14.00

Wilkins, Harold T.  Flying Saucers on the Attack. NY: Citadel,
1954. $35.00-$45.00

Wilkins, Harold T. Flying Saucers Uncensored. NY: Citadel, 1955.
$42.00-$45.00; $70.00-$80.00

Willcox, P.J. The UFO Question (Not Yet Answered). NY: Libra,
1976. $30.00-$50.00


-----









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                           Re: Limboids - Reynolds

From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 09:27:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 14:18:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Limboids - Reynolds


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:30:34 -0600
>Subject: Re: Limboids

>>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 13:10:25 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Limboids - Reynolds

>><snip>

>>Speaking of photos, Kyle...

>>We have a nagative film strip from the 50s which shows a
>>v-formation of UFOs.

<snip>

>If you find the negative too vexing, I'd be happy to scan it for
>you. You should try it first though, as it should scan fairly
>reasonably. If you get a good TIFF scan, and need additional
>software, I can offer to process the image if you'll post it on
>your web.


Kyle,

The negative is a black and white, approximately 35 mm - I'm not
sure what the camera was or much else about the thing... but
it's interesting... at least in its negative format.

I'll follow your instructions and see what I can do, and I'll
try to upload any scans to you, at your e-mail adress, to see
what you can do with the image.


Rich







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             Re: Signs Of Intelligent Life On Titan? - Stevenson

From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 14:34:04 +0000 (GMT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 14:22:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Signs Of Intelligent Life On Titan? - Stevenson


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To:  ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 07:59:51 -0800
>Subject: Re: Signs Of Intelligent Life On Titan?

<snip>

>Maybe I am lacking in imagination, vision, cosmic foo-foo or
>similar requirements. This looks like another piece of really
>really rotten real-estate to me.


Hi Larry and Listers

I've spun the image 180 degrees and cleaned it up a little so
take another look at

http://www.colsweb.com/TitanRadarExtract.htm

and be prepared to be very very surprised indeed. Does Titan
life love music?

MUFON seem to be interested and are taking a look.

Also added a montage of other areas of interest and cartoon for
a smile much needed these days.

Looking forward to the descent probe data early next year 2005
which could indicate past/present life on Titan?


Kind regards

Col








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                Re: Birmingham University's New Crypto Dept -

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 12:12:13 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 14:23:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Birmingham University's New Crypto Dept -


UFO UpDates - Toronto wrote:

>"This is truly fabulous. This is one of the best wind ups I
>have ever come across and whoever did it, congratulations as its
>brilliant.

>http://www.cryptozoology.bham.ac.uk/

>Errr, apparently, Birmingham University have a new Cryptozoology department."

>Stuart Miller
>http://www.uforeview.net


The beady-eyed Gray at the top left of their web page is an
intereting touch, Stuart. Took some courage to include it.


Don Ledger









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               Re: Crank Calls Fear Over Freedom Act - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 12:29:29 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 14:25:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Crank Calls Fear Over Freedom Act - Ledger

>Source: The Daily Telegraph - UK

>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;sessionid=LDV5IAVHUTXFNQFIQMGSM5OAVC
BQWJVC?xml=/news/2004/11/08/ninfo08.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/11/08/ixhome.html

>11-08-04

>Crank Calls Fear Over Freedom Act
>By Ben Fenton

>Academics are becoming increasingly concerned that their work
>will be hampered rather than helped by the Freedom of
>Information Act.

<snip>

More civil service complaints about extra workload. Boy that's
new. The paper pushers are always on about this. Note one calls
herself normal as opposed to the rest of us cranks. Read rather,
don't rock our dry, cushey inside job, away from the weather and
prying eyes.

Re the asbestos problem, I expect we will see more of that as
an excuse for not reviewing files. Asbestos caught on like PCBs
when it came to pushing the panic button.

34 years a civil servant working around asbestos and leaded
paint, running or pulling out cables in a musty old legislature
basement, and two years of installing or de-installing
transformers loaded with PCBs.


Don Ledger







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              Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -

From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:10:07 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 17:14:08 -0500
Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -


>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 18:57:43 -0600
>Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online

>>From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:31:27 -0600
>>Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online

<snip>

>I did a 1000% blow up using a lanczos filter and it sure looks
>like balloons to me.

>The 'dangles' appear to be balloons that have deflated but are
>still attached to the rest

>http://terrygroff.com/images/100_0213_1000.jpg


Terry very curious,

If I understand your observations correctly your telling me the
object/s in question are in fact balloons tied together?
Disturbing news Terry, and today started out so well too. <g>

This may come as a shock to some here but what if I'm convinced
that what I am looking at is a spy satellite, when we are both
using what seems to be the same picture, funny thing is we both
have arrived at different conclusions as to whats in that blurry
photo.

A question could arise that, when I began to blow up the
photo, did I have some fixed notion in my head that the object/s
in the photo were not balloons, rather a spy satellite?

What if upon first analyzing the photo in digital form, but now
lets say under different circumstances, that I were Hindu living
in India and like before, I already had this single fixed
thought of what the image shown might be.

As an Hindu Indian working at my PC, the only big difference
this time is my first impression will be slightly different. The
image while not a satellite nor are they tied balloons but
rather, what if the image were that of Mahatma Gandhi flying
overhead?

As strange as that may sound, I'm as devout a Hindi as you could
possibly imagine with every one of my spiritual corridors now
running full steam ahead. Let's say that I proceed to make a few
necessary photographic observations, then later on what should I
expect to see, well isn't imagination a wonderful thing.....

Now you might be asking what's in the image? Well, let me tell
you what's in the image. A few adjustments here and there such
as lighting, contrast, color, I'll wager that, no time later,
we'll have one ghostly Mahatma Gandhi blessing our country.


All Listers:

Survey.

Q: When you first were shown the picture from the Indian website
provided by Daniel, if you were never shown other enhanced
versions elsewhere, you made your first initial observation of
it - what were your first impressions as to what you thought the
object/s shown in photo might be? Now remember, forget that you
saw Terry's photo. <G>

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1041011/asp/knowhow/story_3833729.asp

[ ] UFO

[ ] Spy Satellite

[ ] Balloon's

[ ] Other

[ ] Don't Know








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                                Kevin Randle?

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 13:01:07 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 17:15:31 -0500
Subject: Kevin Randle?


Fellow Listerions,

Has anyone heard recently from, or about Kevin Randle and his
well-being?


Frank







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              Re: Richard Hall - Alien Invasion 1966-67 - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 19:35:52 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 17:16:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Richard Hall - Alien Invasion 1966-67 - Hall


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:26:51 -0500
>Subject: Re: Richard Hall - Alien Invasion 1966-67

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 11:47:26 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Richard Hall - Alien Invasion 1966-67

>>Just to clarify who can order what and where:

>>Alien Invasion, the 1966-67 UFO Wave -

>>Fund for UFO Research,
>>P.O. Box 277, Mt. Rainier,
>>MD 20712.

>>$28.00. (Or see their web site:

>>http://www.fufor.com

>>for PayPal link.)

>To clarify more, The Fund for UFO Research does not have a
>PayPal link on it's web page, but I have been willing to use my
>account to transfer funds as needed to the Fund to facilitate
>Internet sales.

>If anyone would like to purchase Richard's work, or any of the
>other publications offered by the Fund, please forward a list to
>me and I can generate a payment link in a reply message.

>Steve Kaeser
>Executive Committee
>Fund for UFO Research

To clarify the clarification, the last time I looked the Fund
web site had a PayPal link via my e-mail address. If it's still
there, feel free to use it. But Steve's offer is a good way to
go too.

 - Dick








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                           Re: Richard Hall - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 19:41:55 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 17:18:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Richard Hall - Hall


>From: William M. Wise <will.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>,
>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:08:37 -0500
>Subject: Re: Richard Hall - Wise

>Dr. Hall:

>Would it be possible to send donations to you via your PayPal
>account at dh12.nul? If so, this might be quite
>convenient for other members of UFO UpDates as well.

>Thanks much for your decades of work and take care,

>William Wise

William,

Yes, but please stop calling me doctor! I have no PhD. My
brother, Robert L. Hall, PhD, has been involved somewhat in UFO
research and there is sometimes confusion about it. I even get
called Robert Hall sometimes, which happened to me once on NBC
Evening News With Tom Brokaw.

Thanks for your thoughtfulness.


- Dick  (a.k.a., Richard Hall, B.A.)








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                         Re: Richard Hall - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 14:55:52 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 17:20:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Richard Hall - Balaskas


>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates <UFOUpdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:00:12 -0700
>Subject: Re: Richard Hall


>Fellow Listarians,

>Richard Hall has been my friend for a long while now. We
>disagree on many points in Ufology, but agree on just as many.
>He is, in fact, my mentor. OK, my Aristotle, in Ufology. I'm I
>very proud to admit it!

>Damn, but he's taught me a great deal and I hope I have been a
>good student and fellow researcher.

>You see, Dick is a living and walking history of where we, as
>the interested masses in Ufology, began and currently reside.

<snip>

Hi Wendy! Hi Everyone!

Many distinguished faculty members of the large university where
I work retire every year, and although they are replaced with
younger bright and enthusiastic professors, their special
knowledge and unique experiences collected over a lifetime are
lost, forever.

Fortunately, many of these retiring professors donate their rare
and valuable papers to the university which then makes them
available to all researchers. Although many of the donated items
are priceless and often the university does not have a big
budget to make such purchases, they can and do offer tax
receipts.

If Richard contacts the archives and special collection people
at some of the universities near his home, he may be able to
obtain a large tax receipt for the donation of his UFO papers
and get to use them any time he wishes too!

Thanks to researchers such as Arthur Bray, Wilbert B. Smith and
their families, the University of Ottawa has preserved an
exceptional collection of the history of UFOs and UFO studies in
Canada, including some unique "smoking gun" documents, which if
lost or destroyed, would not have encouraged many ufologists to
continue to strive to learn the whole truth or to attract new
investigators that take UFOs seriously and consider the subject
worthy of study.

Too bad we cannot archive Richard Hall himself so that his much
knowledge and wisdom can continue to enlighten us and direct
newcomers wanting to learning more about ETs and UFOs, a subject
that has a direct impact for all mankind.


Nick Balaskas








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              Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 14:11:06 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 17:21:57 -0500
Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:53:17 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
>Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online

>>From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:31:27 -0600
>>Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online

>>>http://www.telegraphindia.com/1041011/asp/knowhow/story_3833729.asp

>>Well I finally had a little time to work on it.

>>I would have to guess to say probably spy satellite?

<snip>

>What would a spy satellite be doing at such a low 'orbit'? It
>looks like it is a few feet off the ground (I mean you can see
>the rocks in the background).

<snip>

>A balloon seems much more likely. Whether it is lost or a spy
>craft or weather/science balloon, who can tell?

Please take a look at my blowup of the photo at:

http://terrygroff.com/images/100_0213_1000.jpg

It is 1000% using a lanczos filter. Sure looks like balloons to
me.


Terry








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                 Re: Books For Sale By Richard Hall - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:12:46 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 17:23:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Books For Sale By Richard Hall - Boone


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 09:05:19 -0500
>Subject: Books For Sale By Richard Hall

>This is only a partial list, so people can query about other
>titles they might be looking for:

Hi Richard Hall,

Did you try eBay at all? You may get a higher price from the
bidders there.

It always brings me to a boil to hear about another ufologist
strapped for cash. I've been beefing about this for about 10
years now. Unfortunately my suggestions and help often fall on
deaf ears. Sooner or later I'll get that inevitable email or
phone call about an honorable ufologist or scientist up against
the wall.

If I can help out I will. In the meantime there are a couple of
folks on this List I've talked to about this issue recently and
if all goes well there should be a change in these misfortunes.
It all depends on co-operation and keeping egos in check.

I wonder where the skeptibunkers get their endless cash flow
from?


Best,

Greg








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                           Re: Limboids - Reynolds

From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:31:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 17:27:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Limboids - Reynolds


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:30:34 -0600
>Subject: Re: Limboids

>>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 13:10:25 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Limboids

<snip>

>If you find the negative too vexing, I'd be happy to scan it for
>you. You should try it first though, as it should scan fairly
>reasonably. If you get a good TIFF scan, and need additional
>software, I can offer to process the image if you'll post it on
>your web.

I sent Kyle a digital photo of the negative referred to here.

I couldn't scan the negative, but took a photo with a flashlight
for illumination of the negative - okay, it's amateurish but it
worked - somewhat.

Kyle King - and I agree - doesn't see much to warrant us going
further with an effort to see if the negative portrays real
UFOs.

I have no idea where the negative strip came from, It was in a
box of UFO correspondence and other flying saucer detritus
accumulated over the years. (It was in an envelope dated 1955.)

I placed the negative and an inverted image at one of our
mediawatch web-sites:

http://www.mediawatch.us

for UFO UpDaters to see and evaluate for themselves.


Rich Reynolds






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              Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 14:35:44 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 17:29:38 -0500
Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:53:17 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
>Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online

<snip>

>Unless you have defined "satellite" differently than I, I do not
>think it could possibly be a satellite.

>A balloon seems much more likely. Whether it is lost or a spy
>craft or weather/science balloon, who can tell?

Hi James,

My suspicions on the image were confirmed on re-sampling and
adding a little contrast. It appears to be a cluster of 8 or 9
balloons, roughly tied together, and of which 2 0r 3 have
partially deflated and are hanging loosely beneath the main
cluster.

If this were a weather or instrument balloon, I would think that
the balloons would be of a uniform color. In this case, I detect
at least two colors (red/white), and perhaps as many as 5. They
do not appear to be transparent, as if fully inflated, but more
as if they are coming to rest after a very long journey through
the atmosphere, having lost a substantial portion of their
contents through the micro- porous rubber.

Like a pair of sneakers washing up on the beach of an
uninhabited island, it appears that the flotsam and jetsam of
the civilized world makes its way into some unusual places, to
be marveled upon by those not expecting to see it. One can only
envision the tortuous journey of the ill-fated balloon cluster,
perhaps a token of affection... the cluster contains at least
one red balloon and several white or near-white ones... to a
loved one. Perhaps the recipient was not moved by the gesture
and cast them to the heavens and forgot about them. Maybe it
flew out of the car en route to its original destination. There
is also the possibility that they are wayward souvenirs of a
political rally here in the 'States... there appears to be a
blue one or two... lost in the aftermath of political fervor and
forgotten. I guess you would call these prosaic explanations?
*LOL*

The description I read lent much more weight to the behavior of
the object than its appearance. When a cluster of helium
balloons reaches that awkward moment of neutral buoyancy, the
slightest breeze, or thermal updraft from sunlit rocks, can keep
the cluster barely above ground height, following the terrain
because it is almost too heavy to remain aloft... carried along
by the radiated warmth of the ground and prevailing
winds/breezes.

I believe the photograph depicts a balloon cluster, and that its
behavior was only anomalous in the sense that a balloon cluster
would not be expected to be in such a location. In more typical
surroundings, the behavior would not seem unusual at all.


Best Regards,

Kyle








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               Re: Signs Of Intelligent Life On Titan? - Smith

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:40:20 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 17:30:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Signs Of Intelligent Life On Titan? - Smith


>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 14:34:04 +0000 (GMT)
>Subject: Re: Signs Of Intelligent Life On Titan?

>I've spun the image 180 degrees and cleaned it up a little so
>take another look at:

>http://www.colsweb.com/TitanRadarExtract.htm

>and be prepared to be very very surprised indeed.

Rorschach would be proud!








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                        Re: Orb Study Site - LeClair

From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:41:16 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 17:33:15 -0500
Subject: Re:  Orb Study Site - LeClair


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:41:39 -0600
>Subject: Re: Orb Study Site

>>From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:39:01 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Orb Study Site

<snip>

>I'd be very interested in seeing the image. It always amuses me
>when I see a photo which someone claims includes something
>paranormal.

>http://www.wintersteel.com/The_Entity.html

>When you sit on a pier and dangle your feet into the water, you
>see how the water refracts the light and makes your legs look
>bent at an impossible angle. When you have on a pair of
>polarized sunglasses, and remove them in very bright sunlight,
>you realize how much light was actually being completely hidden
>from your view.

>Likewise, a camera...a system of optics, timing and light-
>sensitive material, will only record what remains after the
>incident light travels through the atmosphere, the multiple
>elements of the optics, and eventually comes to rest on the
>light-sensitive material. In all this traveling, the light is
>altered in color, brightness, contrast, and geometry, and is
>split, inverted and recomposed. In other words, a photograph is
>never a true depiction of what is before it, but merely a crude
>representation. The better the camera, the more opportunities
>for ambient light pollution, from the front of the camera as
>well as the rear, due to more optical elements, single lens
>reflex design, larger apertures and lens diameters, etc.


Nice theory, doesn't match the multiple eyewitness testimony
though.









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   Nov > Nov 9

                       Richard Hall Revised Book List

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 20:53:50 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 17:36:56 -0500
Subject: Richard Hall Revised Book List


This is the corrected book list. Ten books have already sold, so
I have deleted them. Also, I will add some more within the next
several days. Too much going on all at once right now.

A bit of promising news: A government contracting firm will have
some work for me in January. But that is still 2 months away.

---

UFO Book Prices
(Hardcovers)

[Add $1.50 for Media Mail postage in U.S. Inquire about overseas
postal rates. Personal checks, money orders, or PayPal in U.S.
International money orders or PayPal overseas.]


Richard H. Hall
4418 39th Street
Brentwood, MD 20722-1021

E-mail for PayPal payments or inquiries: dh12.nul


Mostly single copies except where indicated otherwise. Please
inquire about availability before sending payment.

Allingham, Cedric. Flying Saucers From Mars. NY: British Book
Centre, 1955. $12.00

Berlitz & Moore. The Roswell Incident. Grosset & Dunlap, 1980.
$8.00

David, Jay. Flying Saucer Reader. New American Library, 1967.
$10.00

Edwards, Frank. Flying Saucers Serious Business. N.Y.: Lyle
Stuart, 1966. (Multiple copies: $10.00, $15.00.)

Edwards, Frank. Flying Saucers Here and Now. N.Y.: Lyle Stuart,
1967. $9.00

Fuller, John. Incident At Exeter. NY: Putnams, 1966. $18.00
(Multiple copies.)

Fuller, John. Interrupted Journey. NY: Dial Press, 1966. $20.00

ibbons, Gavin. They Rode in Spaceships. NY: Citadel, 1967.
$15.00

Good, Timothy. Above Top Secret. NY: Wm. Morrow, 1988. $12.00

Haines, Richard F. Observing UFOs. Chicago: Nelson-Hall, 1980.
$25.00.

Heard, Gerald. Is Another World Watching? Harper, 1951. $12.00

Keyhoe, Donald E. Flying Saucers From Outer Space. NY: Holt,
1953. (Multiple copies. Reading copy $13.00; w/dj $15.00-
 $25.00.)

Keyhoe, Donald E. Flying Saucers: Top Secret. NY: Putnams, 1960.
(Multiple copies $10.00-$35.00.)

Klass, Philip J. UFOs-Identified. NY: Random House, 1968. $12.00

Maney, Charles A. & Richard Hall. Challenge of Unidentified
Flying Objects, 1961. $30.00

Menzel, Donald H. & Lyle G. Boyd. The World of Flying Saucers.
NY: Doubleday, 1963. $12,00

Michel, Aime. Flying Saucers and the Straight Line Mystery. NY:
Criterion, 1958. $20.00

Peters, Ted. UFOs: God's Chariots? Atlanta: John Knox Press,
1977. $35.00.

Ruppelt, Edward J. Report on Unidentified Flying Objects. NY:
Doubleday, 1956. (Multiple copies.$10.00-$15.00.)

Sanderson, Ivan T. Uninvited Visitors. Cowles, 1967. 1st ed.
$25.00

Saunders, David R. & R. Roger Harkins. UFOs? Yes! World Book,.
1968. $24.00

Stringfield, Leonard R. Situation Red. NY: Doubleday, 1977. 1st
ed. $20.00

Vallee, Jacques. Challenge to Science. Chicago: Regnery, 1966.
$14.00

Wilkins, Harold T. Flying Saucers on the Attack. NY: Citadel,
1954. $35.00

Wilkins, Harold T. Flying Saucers Uncensored. NY: Citadel, 1955.
$45.00

Willcox, P.J. The UFO Question (Not Yet Answered). NY: Libra,
1976. (Multiple copies. $30.00-$50.00.)









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              Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -

From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:29:43 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 17:40:56 -0500
Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:53:17 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
>Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online

>>From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:31:27 -0600
>>Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online

><snip>

>What would a spy satellite be doing at such a low 'orbit'? It
>looks like it is a few feet off the ground (I mean you can see
>the rocks in the background).

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1041011/asp/knowhow/story_3833729.asp

"UFO or spy satellite?"

"The geologists from the Space Applications Centre (SAC),
Ahmedabad, and Himachal Pradesh, who saw the object, assert that
it didn't behave anything like a balloon. But aerospace experts
who have seen a photograph of the object argue that wind
currents over the mountainous terrain and human perceptions of
objects in a vast open space may explain whatever the geologists
had observed. They also say that technology exists today to
build small unmanned flying vehicles."

>Do you know the speed it would be going to be in orbit?

http://collections.ic.gc.ca/satellites/english/anatomy/orbit/sunsynch.html

Generally, sun-synchronous orbits are medium or low orbits.

http://www.fas.org/spp/military/program/imint/

http://www.fas.org/spp/military/program/imint/warfighter.htm

Orbit:
470 Km
97.3 Deg. Inclination
Sun Synchronous

http://www.fas.org/spp/military/program/imint/at_950509.htm

Spysats: going higher?

- 5500 km x 500 km direct and retrograde-sunsynchronous Molniya
orbits that give high resolution at perigee and long dwell at
apogee. Argument of perigee could be adjusted to suit the needs
of the moment.

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/970613a.html

The orbital velocity at 5500.00 kilometers is 5.79 km/sec!
The orbital velocity at 500.00 kilometers is 7.61 km/sec!


Do you know the number of minutes to go around the earth ? <G>


John








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               Re: Signs Of Intelligent Life On Titan? - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:43:21 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 17:42:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Signs Of Intelligent Life On Titan? - King


>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 14:34:04 +0000 (GMT)
>Subject: Re: Signs Of Intelligent Life On Titan?

>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>>To:  ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 07:59:51 -0800
>>Subject: Re: Signs Of Intelligent Life On Titan?

><snip>

>>Maybe I am lacking in imagination, vision, cosmic foo-foo or
>>similar requirements. This looks like another piece of really
>>really rotten real-estate to me.

>I've spun the image 180 degrees and cleaned it up a little so
>take another look at

>http://www.colsweb.com/TitanRadarExtract.htm

>and be prepared to be very very surprised indeed. Does Titan
>life love music?

>MUFON seem to be interested and are taking a look.

>Also added a montage of other areas of interest and cartoon for
>a smile much needed these days.

>Looking forward to the descent probe data early next year 2005
>which could indicate past/present life on Titan?

Hi Colin,

In your analysis page you note that you did not enlarge the
image because you didn't want to introduce fuzzy logic.

Then after flipping the image 180 degrees, you note that you
have removed some spurious data.

This is interesting in that you are removing data you claim is
spurious in order to leave your interpreted Titan Man.

Your fuzzy logic is more troublesome to me than that of a
graphics programme. Photoshop has no agenda.

In fact, the source image you are using is a lossy, compressed,
pixelated version of the original. Your interpretation as to
what is spurious and what is not is suspect since the entire
image is spurious in terms of the original. Artifacts of the
compression algorithm which produced the JPG can allow for many
odd patterns and apparent geometries, but they do not accurately
depict what the radar imaging system recorded. A rough
estimation at best...certainly not enough to support
identification of details in a postage stamp size sample.

Good practice with the image editor, though.

The data will be available shortly. Hopefully we will learn
something useful, if not extraordinary.


Best Regards,

Kyle








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                 Re: Direct PayPal Link to Dick Hall - Groff

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 16:00:46 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 17:46:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Direct PayPal Link to Dick Hall - Groff


Dear List and concerned citizens,

I've placed a PayPal link on the UFO Tools website for donations
to Dick Hall. They go directly to Dick's PayPal account.

http://terrygroff.com/ufotools/index.html

Scroll down to the banner called "Richard Hall Relief Fund"


Thanks

Terry








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                      'Foreign Warplane' Caused UK Boom

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 06:04:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 06:04:15 -0500
Subject: 'Foreign Warplane' Caused UK Boom




Source: EDP24 - Norfolk, UK

http://new.edp24.co.uk/content/news/story.aspx?brand=3DEDPOnline&category=3D=
News&tBrand=3Dedponline&tCategory=3Dnews&itemid=3DNOED09%20Nov%202004%2019%3=
A28%3A41%3A087

11-09-04


Diplomatic Row Over Sonic Boom
Richard Batson

The aircraft that caused a sonic boom over North Norfolk was a
passing foreign warplane flying up the North Sea, it emerged
tonight.

But defence officials are staying tight-lipped over the identity
of the offending military pilot and his nationality.

People across a stretch of east and north Norfolk from
Sheringham to Halvergate heard Monday's big bang at about noon.

The window-rattling boom sparked fears it was huge gas
explosion, but it was later confirmed as a sonic boom caused by
an aircraft that was not British.

Ministry of Defence spokesman Lt Col Stuart Green said last
night the aircraft involved was from another country, and had
not been taking off, landing or involved in an exercise in
Britain.

The plane, whose nationality they were not revealing, was
passing by, up the North Sea, when it made the sonic boom =96
created by pressure waves from aircraft travelling faster than
sound.

The MoD's =93displeasure=94 over the incident was being relayed to
the country involved through diplomatic channels, probably
through military attach=E9s.

Lt Col Green said the MoD went to great lengths to prevent
British aircraft making sonic booms and did not take kindly to
other people who did it.

There were a handful of reports made to the local media and MP's
office today, about another alleged boom around 8am in the
Sheringham and Cromer areas.

But Lt Col Green said there had been no official reports of
other sonic booms, which were very rare events.








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                         Re: Kevin Randle? - LeClair

From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 01:46:45 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 06:06:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Kevin Randle? - LeClair


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 13:01:07 -0800
>Subject: Kevin Randle?

>Fellow Listerions,

>Has anyone heard recently from, or about Kevin Randle and his
>well-being?


He went to Iraq, or is he sick? Your question made me think
there might be somthing wrong with him that I haven't heard
about. I'm curious to hear any info too. Especially since we
been losing alot of people in this field of late.







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                          Re: Orb Study Site - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 17:50:35 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 06:10:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Orb Study Site - King


>From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:41:16 -0500
>Subject: Re: Orb Study Site

><snip>

>Nice theory, doesn't match the multiple eyewitness testimony
>though.

Hi Aaron,

When I said it amused me when I see a photo which someone claims
includes something paranormal, perhaps I was ambiguous. I am
perfectly willing to accept eyewitness accounts of odd events. I
believe that many people have seen something extraordinary for
which a definitive explanation remains elusive. My interest in
these subjects is more in the vein of eliminating some of the
noise from the signal, and helping to pare down the
possibilities until a clearly satisfying explanation remains. If
such an explanation does not make itself apparent, we have a
true mystery on which to focus.

I fully admit that the individuals you note quite possibly
encountered something anomalous. I simply regard the existing
photographic evidence as far below the threshold of proof of
anomalous entities.

The images I have seen to date do not look in any way anomalous,
except that they depict anomalous lighting or optical effects,
any of which are easily duplicated with mundane objects and
substances with a camera and a bright sun, flash, or external
light.

I have read of people who take literally hundreds of photographs
of typical life scenes...on the street, at the meeting, in the
garden, in the living room, at the wedding, etc. Then they cull
through them looking for the few that reveal the elusive orb or
mist or ecto or whatever. Then they display these greatest hits,
describing their anatomy, imbuing them with all manner of
mystical properties, all while discarding the huge volume of
photos with nothing remarkable in them.

My amusement at the claims often made about such photographs
lies in what is in the photograph rather than what the witnesses
saw. You would be correct if you deduced that I am implying that
what they photographed is not what they saw. That much is clear
from the photographs themselves.

There are great mysteries which we hope to solve. For many,
explanations remain elusive.

As I've said before, Orb-mist-ecto-etc photographs are not among
them.

But I'd still be interested in seeing the image you mentioned.
*S*


Respectfully,

Kyle








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                  Re: Books For Sale By Richard Hall - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 22:34:08 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 06:11:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Books For Sale By Richard Hall - Hall


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:12:46 EST
>Subject: Re: Books For Sale By Richard Hall

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 09:05:19 -0500
>>Subject: Books For Sale By Richard Hall

>>This is only a partial list, so people can query about other
>>titles they might be looking for:


>Did you try eBay at all? You may get a higher price from the
>bidders there.

Greg, I have been a seller on eBay for a couple of years, but
sales have dried up there, I suspect because of the lousy
economy for many people. Plus the listing fees have lately been
more than I can afford.

>It always brings me to a boil to hear about another ufologist
>strapped for cash. I've been beefing about this for about 10
>years now. Unfortunately my suggestions and help often fall on
>deaf ears. Sooner or later I'll get that inevitable email or
>phone call about an honorable ufologist or scientist up against
>the wall.

Yes, well I can only blame myself for not seeing the handwriting
on the wall and taking up some orthodox profession.







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              Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 17:27:12 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 06:12:19 -0500
Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -


>From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:10:07 -0600
>Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online

>>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 18:57:43 -0600
>>Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online

>>I did a 1000% blow up using a lanczos filter and it sure looks
>>like balloons to me.

>>The 'dangles' appear to be balloons that have deflated but are
>>still attached to the rest

>>http://terrygroff.com/images/100_0213_1000.jpg

>Terry very curious,

>If I understand your observations correctly your telling me the
>object/s in question are in fact balloons tied together?
>Disturbing news Terry, and today started out so well too. <g>

John,

Perhaps I should explain my initial approach to any kind of
event.

I think most ufologists agree that most sightings are either,
misidentifications of known events or objects, or, they are
hoaxes.

What we all want is difinitive proof, the best evidence, the
smoking gun.

If I examine a photgraph of an unusual object, I attempt to see
if that object can possibly be explained as a known object. If
it can, then it is not best evidence, even if the object is
actually an alien craft. I explain it as balloons. You explain
it as a spy satellite.

This is a good example of one of the fallacies of eyewitness
testimony. Here we are two fairly sane men looking at identical
objects and yet we are seeing two very different things. Again,
our opinions of what we see aren't necessarily best evidence
either.


Terry








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              Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 18:56:15 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 06:13:41 -0500
Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -


>From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:10:07 -0600
>Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online

<snip>

>All Listers:

>Survey.

>Q: When you first were shown the picture from the Indian website
>provided by Daniel, if you were never shown other enhanced
>versions elsewhere, you made your first initial observation of
>it - what were your first impressions as to what you thought the
>object/s shown in photo might be? Now remember, forget that you
>saw Terry's photo. <G>

>http://www.telegraphindia.com/1041011/asp/knowhow/story_3833729.asp

>[ ] UFO

>[ ] Spy Satellite

>[ ] Balloon's

>[ ] Other

>[ ] Don't Know

Hi John,

I think when most people are shown a photograph of balloons,
they tend to see balloons. If the photograph shows balloons in
an unusual setting, people tend to perceive the balloons as out
of place, and therefore tend to question their initial
perception. These scientists described exactly what they
saw...balloons. they were perplexed by the behavior, not the
appearance, of the object.

The cluster of balloons in the photograph are in a decidedly
weird place. The people that saw the balloons were absolutely
not expecting to see colorful balloon clusters floating around
in the Himalayas. Once the balloons began to show reactions to
wind and temperature, the movements were perceived as anomalous,
reinforcing the questioning of the initial perception. Also,
there may be something suspended from the cluster. A wad of
ribbon or bundle of shroud lines or a completely deflated
balloon could occasionally get caught in the rocks below, and
lend the cluster a kind of fits and starts motion like a fishing
sinker dragging along the bottom at the end of the line.

The guys could presumably have followed the object, but chose
otherwise. If they truly felt that it was of great scientific
interest, would they not have pursued this satellite or made a
more extensive photographic recording of the event? These were
scientists, correct?

It would be good to know the scale of the photograph. It is
difficult to tell if the far bank of rock is on the order of a
couple hundred feet away, or more like a thousand. The cluster
definitely appears to be very close to that far bank rather than
hovering some distance between the camera and the bank. More
information would help greatly.


Best Regards,

Kyle








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              Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -

From: Simon Hicks <slh.nul>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 10:34:56 +0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 06:15:13 -0500
Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -


>From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:10:07 -0600
>Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online

<snip>

>Q: When you first were shown the picture from the Indian website
>provided by Daniel, if you were never shown other enhanced
>versions elsewhere, you made your first initial observation of
>it - what were your first impressions as to what you thought the
>object/s shown in photo might be? Now remember, forget that you
>saw Terry's photo. <G>


Balloons






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              Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -

From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 11:23:11 +1100
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 06:17:50 -0500
Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -


>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 18:57:43 -0600
>Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online

>>From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:31:27 -0600
>>Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online

<snip>

>I did a 1000% blow up using a lanczos filter and it sure looks
>like balloons to me.

>The 'dangles' appear to be balloons that have deflated but are
>still attached to the rest

>http://terrygroff.com/images/100_0213_1000.jpg


Terry and Listers,

For those of you on this List seriously interested in UFOs,
take a good look at the great enhancement enlargement done by
Terry Groff in the URL shown above. Well done Terry.

These Orbs are genuine UFOs. They are not balloons and certainly
not "spy satellites" or anything mystical. I have been fortunate
to have witnessed and video taped this same type of UFO Orb on
four different occasions this year and for 50 minutes in 1999.

These types of UFOs have been seen and photographed quite a bit
this year in the USA, UK, Australia, possibly China, Mexico,
Indonesia and now India.

This type of Orb UFO in such groups have been named "Cluster
UFOs" by the Sky-watchers who have filmed them. And this is a
perfect description for them. This close association with one
another seems to be a common feature displayed by these types of
objects.

The different colours of these Orbs appears unique to this type
of UFO, and is the same as I and others have seen and filmed
them.

So take a good look at what some types of genuine UFO's actually
look like. They seem to be a 'critter' or self contained living
life form yet unidentified and seen and filmed by observers
around the world.

Follow links on my UFO web site for more on these UFO Orbs:

http://theozfactor.nucleardays.com


Barry Taylor








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              Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -

From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 02:51:14 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 06:20:24 -0500
Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -


>From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:10:07 -0600
>Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online

<snip>

>Q: When you first were shown the picture from the Indian website
>provided by Daniel, if you were never shown other enhanced
>versions elsewhere, you made your first initial observation of
>it - what were your first impressions as to what you thought the
>object/s shown in photo might be? Now remember, forget that you
>saw Terry's photo. <G>


>[ ] UFO

>[ ] Spy Satellite

>[ ] Balloon's

[X ] Other - According to the behaviors described by witnesses
and it's appearance, it is/was likely a crude LTA UAV. Knew it
before I ever saw the original photograph, knew it before I saw
your image, knew it before I saw Terry's image.

Not only does the US military have and use LTA UAV's (there have
been articles about them posted to this list), other countries
appear to be experimenting with the same technologies. The one
spotted in India could have been an amateur device because it
was so crude with little or no stealth, CC&D or adequate
propulsion. It does, however, appear to be equipped with
auditory sensors because the witnesses described it as appearing
to react when they shouted to the others.

Anyone could build one of these - any time, any where. Who needs
missiles or hijacked planes when you can make one of these,
attach a dirty bomb or biological agents and silently float them
any where you want them to go - smaller versions would not be
detected by radar. I have no doubts terrorists will be using
this and related technologies in the near future because I've
been researching these and similar technologies for the past 7
years. Haven't slept well since 911.

A. Hebert

PS - "Spy satellite"? <ROFL>








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Nov > Nov 10

                           Re: Richard Hall - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 22:41:23 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 06:22:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Richard Hall - Hall


>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 14:55:52 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
>Subject: Re: Richard Hall

>>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates <UFOUpdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:00:12 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Richard Hall

>>Fellow Listarians,

>>Richard Hall has been my friend for a long while now. We
>>disagree on many points in Ufology, but agree on just as many.
>>He is, in fact, my mentor. OK, my Aristotle, in Ufology. I'm I
>>very proud to admit it!

>>Damn, but he's taught me a great deal and I hope I have been a
>>good student and fellow researcher.

>>You see, Dick is a living and walking history of where we, as
>>the interested masses in Ufology, began and currently reside.

<snip>

>If Richard contacts the archives and special collection people
>at some of the universities near his home, he may be able to
>obtain a large tax receipt for the donation of his UFO papers
>and get to use them any time he wishes too!

<snip>

Nick,

Thanks for your suggestions and the kind comments. Tax write-
offs don't work for me because I have no taxable income to write
them off against. I was pretty much at the poverty level for
Maryland taxes last year. If I give my few remaining assets away
free, I have nothing left.


 - Dick








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             Re: Signs Of Intelligent Life On Titan? - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 21:53:56 -1000
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 06:25:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Signs Of Intelligent Life On Titan? - Goldstein


>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 14:34:04 +0000 (GMT)
>Subject: Re: Signs Of Intelligent Life On Titan?

>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>>To:  ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 07:59:51 -0800
>>Subject: Re: Signs Of Intelligent Life On Titan?

><snip>

>>Maybe I am lacking in imagination, vision, cosmic foo-foo or
>>similar requirements. This looks like another piece of really
>>really rotten real-estate to me.

>I've spun the image 180 degrees and cleaned it up a little so
>take another look at

>http://www.colsweb.com/TitanRadarExtract.htm

<snip>

Col,

You must be joking. When you posted your first image I saw the
vague outline of a plus sign or a cross. Now with your latest
images you seem to see some Titan insect shape or something. We
have evolved great pattern recognition software in our brains
but your raw image is so vague you can read whatever you want
from it.

This is almost as bad as George Filer's imaginary views of Mars.
Are you guys so desperate to find some proof of extraterrestrial
civilization that you read it into the most vague and anomalous
images? This is like trying to call the vague balloon like
object at a low altitude a satellite.

In my opinion, if MUFON is taking this seriously, that shows how
badly off they are. George Filer is the MUFON state director for
New Jersey yet he is letting his imagination run away with him.
It is sad that MUFON was going to be a serious scientific
investigation of the phenomenon but became an amateurish
exponent of flakiness.


Josh Goldstein








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                Where Were The Pros During Mexico City Flap?

From: Craig Parsons <filmseries.nul>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 23:32:21 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 06:29:37 -0500
Subject: Where Were The Pros During Mexico City Flap?


Hi,

Enjoy the List and have a question for you. First, let me say
that I'm not asking this as a debunker. I'm firmly in the
Stanton Friedman camp of open-minded, yet not gullible
curiosity.

With that in mind: While recently watching (again) a show
featuring the famous Mexican sightings (the early 90's ones), it
suddenly occured to me what I _wasn't_ seeing. Namely,
professionally shot footage.

The TV journalist (Jaime Maussan) who was in the forefront of
discussing the phenomena spoke about how there was hundreds, if
not thousands, of home video tapes of the UFOs. He personally
did several shows about it with panel discussions, etc.

So, here's the rub: With the UFOs showing up day after day over
Mexico City and hanging around for more than just a minute or
two, why didn't his station have a camera near the roof of their
studio (or even in the street) with a long sports lens and have
a crew ready to start filming?

As I watched this, that just hit me so strongly. I've worked in
the video production arena and first-off, with an on-going story
like this it seems incomprehensible that they didn't film
anything but just relied on amateur tapes.

Second, the lens used for covering sporting events are really
powerful and can zoom in on a a player that's on the other side
of the field and literally film just his eyes if that's what
they wanted. So, with that available, imagine the resolution
(and maybe a solution) of the UFOs in the sky. Finally, it's
absolutely common practice to have crews ready in mobile units
to react to a breaking newstory, so again, where were they?
Or.....

Did they in fact film these and I just haven't seen them? That
seems unlikely, too. So, the question is not about the presence
of the UFOs but the absence of news crews. I welcome your
thoughts on this. Thanks again for your terrific site.


 - Craig Parsons








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                   NWSURC Recent Sightings & News 11-09-04

From: Barb Campbell <nwsurc.nul>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 21:13:01 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 05:02:37 -0500
Subject: NWSURC Recent Sightings & News 11-09-04


Northwest Saskatchewan UFO Research Center (NWSURC)

Possible Abduction Of Saskatchewan Resident

Date: August 1985 circa
Time: 1pm - 5:30pm circa
Location: Vegreville & Vermillion, Alberta
Duration: 91 km
Objects: 1
Witnesses: 1, possibly 2

Report received via e-mail:

Description of sighting: I've forgotten the year but think it
was around 1985 or a bit later - I believe it was the year of
the big tornado on the outskirts of Edmonton. Also, some weather
balloon testing was being conducted over Alberta at the time and
consequently I think I convinced myself that my sighting might
not have been significant. But I don't think weather balloons
behave in such a manner.

I was driving home to Saskatoon from Edmonton on an August
Sunday, leaving around 11 am. I took the Yellowhead highway and
stopped to eat at Vegreville for about 45 minutes. The highway
wasn't busy and shortly after getting back on the road I was
feeling a little bored and restless so rolled the sunroof open
for some fresh air. Glancing up I was a bit shocked to see a
silvery-almost translucent appearing disc hovering above the car
and keeping right up to my speed. Though I was somewhat fearful
I was also excited at the prospect of seeing a UFO.

The object remained directly above the car for about 10 minutes
(I think) at which time it rose rapidly upward (got smaller to
the eye) and moved off to my left, maybe a half mile to a mile
or so. There, it shadowed me until I reached Vermillion, even
turning as I did relative to road direction. At one point I
thought I would lose sight of it in an approaching cloud bank
but it rose straight up and over it and then down again. With
Vermillion in view I spotted a van parked by the side of the
road.

A man with binoculars was standing near the vehicle looking at
grain elevators, I believed. As the object would likely have
proceeded across his field of view I was thinking he would be
witnessing it too, so I stopped to get some badly needed
confirmation. I noticed his license plates were from Quebec
about the same time as I asked if he'd seen the object. But
there was no acknowledgement other than that he looked in my
direction without uttering a word, and he was expressionless!
Feeling pretty unnerved and possibly that I was being viewed as
a nutcase - or not viewed at all, I turned and got out of there,
fast. I looked for the object but never saw it after that, and
the sky had gotten cloudier. I don't think it really struck me
until quite a bit later as to just how late in the afternoon it
was when I'd arrived at (left) Vermillion - and that shouldn't
have been the case! I've never been able to account for what I
now believe to be missing time; probably a couple of hours or
more.

Q: When you first seen the object above your car, how high up
would you say it would have been?

A: This is a tough one. I'm guessing it was only a couple
hundred feet above me at most.

Q: Was the sky clear and was it sunny at this time?

A: Mostly clear and sunny, maybe a bit hazy or some high cloud
surrounding - a beautiful late August day really.

Q: If the sun was present, where was it positioned at this time
- relative to the object? Or what direction would you say the
object was travelling?

A: The sun would have to have been pretty much overhead I guess
though I didn't notice it... I do remember it being pretty
bright when I peeled back the sunroof though, however there was
no mistaking the object... it was there...  and it was
surrounded by contrasty blue sky! I was heading pretty much east
by south east I think, and the object was always above the car
so it was going the same direction.

Q: Do you recall seeing birds near the area at all, or a plane?

A: Nothing. I remember thinking just how uneventful the passing
countryside was.

Q: Are you able to recall the size of the object or be able to
compare it to something else?

A: If you held a quarter about 4 inches from your eye, that was
the space it filled in relation to the sunroof opening. I'm
guessing the size would have been comparable to a jet, but round
of course.

Q: When refering to the object as a "disk", would this mean the
object seemed to be level flat on top and bottom? Or was it
completely rounded with ample body? Are you able to forward a
drawing of what you had seen?

A: I have attached a very poor drawing from memory. I remember
it seemed metallic and reflective or translucent. It did not
look like what I would perceive a balloon material would be
like, it seemed substantial and somewhat flat though as it moved
off to the left it's circular shape was maintined but a bit more
cigar-like I think. It definitely had body to it and would have
been capable of housing something. Judging by the precision
navigation and speed of it I believed it had to be occupied and
was being flown.

Q: You mentioned that you were aware of some weather balloon
testing going on. Could you explain how you knew this?

A: I heard about the testing on the television news beforehand.
I don't remember the details at all but it seems it was fairly
big news at the time.

Q: The object was keeping right up to your speed. Could you
recall how fast you were travelling?

A: I would have been going 60 mph or a little more. I remember
slowing down somewhat, for a few minutes after first sighting
the object. At one point I remember coming close to driving into
the ditch when it started to sink in that it had locked in on me
and that I was alone and possibly in danger.

Q: A trip from Edmonton to Vermillion should take approximately
2 hours, but you also stopped in Vegreville for a bite to eat
and that took you approx 45 minutes. This would mean that you
should have been in Vermillion around 1:45 or 2:00pm. You
believe you may have lost some time (a couple of hours) between
Vegreville and Vermillion? Would you say that you then
arrived/left Vermillion around 4pm or so instead?

A: It could have been even a bit later. I made a brief stop
after that, at Lloydminster for gas and arrived back in
Saskatoon at dusk. (About 8 pm I think) The funny thing was I
don't think it fully registered that I was getting back so late
until after I'd gotten home. Was I in a daze or something?

Q: How often have you made the same trip?

A: Not often, maybe three times before that and a few times
since.



Thank you to the witness.

Drawing can be viewed at:

http://ca.geocities.com/nwsurc/ssr-04-07.htm

Barb's note: Please contact NWSURC if you have encountered a
similar experience within the same area or if you were there on
that day and may have seen the same object.

-----

UFO Cruises Golf Course

Date: 1980s circa
Time: unknown
Location: Saskatoon
Objects: 1
Witnesses: 3

Report received via e-mail:

Description of sighting: I saw your article in the November 8, 2004
edition of the Saskatoon Star-Phoenix and decided to tell this UFO
story as I have told family and some friends about it, and although
it happened approximately 20 years ago, I still can't explain it.
Perhaps you can.

As I said it was about 20 years ago during the middle of summer in
Saskatoon. I was playing a round of golf with my father whose name
is (deleted). We were on the 18th hole tee box at Holiday Park Golf
Course, and we had another older gentleman playing with the two of
us making a threesome. I don't know the name of the third gentleman
playing with us, although I do remember that my father knew this
guy. I have asked him since if he remembers who the guy was that was
playing golf with us that time we saw the UFO, and my dad declines
to tell me, or he genuinely doesn't remember.

My father and this other guy had already hit their respective drives
down the fairway. I was standing up to my ball just about to hit it
when I hear this other guy who I will call (deleted), say to my
father, "there's a UFO for you (deleted)". He points up above my
head and I look up and see this roundish grey disk right above my
head about 100 feet up but coming towards us. It had no seams, it
seemed to be made of one piece of greyish colored material, no
flashing lights or anything like that, and it was revolving at a
slow speed, about one revolution every 2 seconds. It also tipped a
little every time it rotated. About the same amount every time. I
would estimate it's diameter to be about 6 to 8 feet. Despite the
fact that this in hindsight was something quite unusual, I never
felt any fear at all while I was looking at it. It seemed so
innocent and I know for sure that had (deleted) not said anything
when he saw it, I likely would never even have seen it, as it was
almost the exact same coloring as the sky. This was about one hour
before sunset and despite it being a clear, dead calm, blue sky day,
it looked on the horizon that there might be some rain later that
evening as the sky in the West looked a little more greyish blue
than the brilliant blue sky we had all that day. This object was the
exact color of this greyish blue sky.

As I continued to look at it, my mind raced going over all the
posibilities as to what this thing could possibly be. The next
really unusual thing about it was that despite it's size and because
it was dead calm, (no wind at all), this thing made absolutely no
noise. I distinctly remember "listening hard" in the dead calm
weather to attempt to hear even the faintest sound, but absolutely
nothing could be heard. It kept coming towards me, and it seemed
that almost immediately after I began to look at it, it started to
gain in elevation, such that about the time it was right over top of
me it began going straight up as opposed to continuing to travel
almost parrallel with the ground when I first saw it coming towards
us. After looking at it for probably a couple of minutes, and
finally determining I could not come up with a likely explanation
for what I was looking at, I asked my father, "what the hell is
that thing?" For anyone who knows my father they would understand
his response, which was, "how the hell should I know, stop gawking
at it and hit your damn ball... there's people coming up behind us
you know!!" Actually there was no one behind us, or ahead of us, or
beside us, or anywhere near us when this thing went over us. I
should explain that my father doesn't believe in "any of that
horseshit" as he puts it so eloquently. He simply ignored it almost
like he didn't want to confront the possibilities. Both him and
(deleted) just began walking down the 18th fairway towards their
balls.

Meanwhile I continue to watch this grey disk as it continued to
climb straight up. All the while it kept rotating at the same speed,
and continued with it's slight tilt once per rotation. I remember
watching it ascend until I could not see it any longer. When it got
too high to see with the naked eye, the only thing I could see was
the sun relecting off what must have been it's metallic surface when
it made it's tip during every rotation. About once every two seconds
I would see this flash. When I decided to hit my ball, I looked down
the fairway which has a dog-leg right about 300 yards down the 485
yard par 5 hole. My dad and (deleted) were just going out of site
behind a bluff of trees lining the right hand side of the fairway
just past the "dog leg". So however long it takes a person to walk
300-400 yards, that would be about the same length of time I watched
this thing ascend until out of site.

Since this happened I have listened to other reported descriptions
of UFOs and have never heard of anything described that seemed
similar to this thing. Usually everybody reports seeing UFOs at
night. This was in broad daylight. Usually there are reports of
flashing lights, and great speed. This showed no lights and was
moving at a horizontal speed of no greater than about 3 miles an
hour. It was weird to say the least and I don't think I will ever
know just what it was. Thought you might be interested in this
story.

Thank you to the witness.

-----

NWSURC In The News

The Star Phoenix Nov 8, 2004 (Saskatoon)
Article can be viewed:

http://ca.geocities.com/nwsurc/sp-nov8-04.htm

Meridian Booster Nov 7, 2004 (Lloydminster)
Article can be viewed at:

http://ca.geocities.com/nwsurc/touchdown.htm


-----

NWSURC Soon Moving To New Web Location

NWSURC has obtained a domain of its own and it should be up and
operational within a matter of a few days. The address will be
www.nwsurc.com

An announcement will be made on its current site and a link
given to redirect everyone over to new location when the time
comes.

Currently at Geocities location, NWSURC has been receiving so
many hits that the site has been shut down temporarily so often
for exceedings its bandwidth. Very annoying and not to mention,
difficult for those wishing to access the site.

-----

Other notes:

I had hoped to see NWSURC form into a group, but after Dennis
quit today I decided not to allow that to happen again. NWSURC
will be operated by myself alone.

Since others have learned of NWSURC's existence through the
newspapers, I have been receiving reports by phone and e-mail
and these will be posted once I have completed them. I am
particularly pleased about a story coming out of the Melfort
area. That report is arriving by mail, complete with maps and
diagrams.

I've also received email from the people in general stating that
they are really pleased to hear that a UFO research center has
been set up in Saskatchewan. And those who have visited the site
have commented on how well they liked the site and variety of
information provided. One person mentioned that the title was a
bit too dark and hard to see, so that was quickly lightened up!

NWSURC started a Canadian UFO Groups listing, where those who
are listed have their photo included. This allows people to put
a face to the names they keep hearing about.

Canadian UFO Groups currently listed are: HBCCUFO, NWSURC,
UFOROM, AUFOSG, AQU-QUA and UFOBC.

On Nov.4, NWSURC opened a discussion group in Yahoo Groups where
people can discuss UFO sightings, crop circles, alien abduction,
and animal mutilation and so on from anywhere around the world.
This discussion group is moderated by myself and Brian Vike from
HBCCUFO. The group can be found at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nwsurc/

Please note that the following numbers are no longer in service;
Ph: 1-775-871-4208 and Fax: 1-775-310-7059. All calls are to be
made to (306)893-4009.


Barb Campbell, NWSURC
Box 263
Maidstone SK S0M 1M0
Ph:(306)893-4009
Northwest Saskatchewan UFO Research Center (NWSURC)
E-mail: nwsurc.nul
Web: http://ca.geocities.com/nwsurc
Discussion Group:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nwsurc










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             Re: Signs Of Intelligent Life On Titan? - Stevenson

From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 11:58:25 +0000 (GMT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 05:07:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Signs Of Intelligent Life On Titan? - Stevenson


>From: Kyle King <kykylekingbsbcglobalet>
>To: <ufufoupdatesivirtuallystrangeet>
>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:43:21 -0600
>Subject: Re: Signs Of Intelligent Life On Titan?

<snip>

>In your analysis page you note that you did not enlarge the
>image because you didn't want to introduce fuzzy logic.

The JPJP image is enlarged for that area to twice original but
keeping the number of pixels the same so avoiding graphic
program insertion of fuzzy logic interpreted inintermediary
pixel fill.

>Then after flipping the image 180 degrees, you note that
>you have removed some spurious data.

>This is interesting in that you are removing data you >claim is
>spurious in order to leave your interpreted Titan Man.

I removed all dots from around the image to make
the image clearer and did not remove data from within
the interpreted image boundary.

>Your fuzzy logic is more troublesome to me than that of a
>graphics program Photoshop has no agenda.

Try this. Create a picture with a strip of two different colors
then increase the pixelization to increase the resolution.
Result - a band of different color between the two color strips.
That is a graphics program fuzzy logic which alters the data
first seen.

>In fact, the source image you are using is a lossy, compressed,
>pixelated version of the original. Your interpretation as to
>what is spurious and what is not is suspect since the entire
>image is spurious in terms of the original. Artifacts of the
>compression algorithm which produced the JPG can allow for many
>odd patterns and apparent geometries, but they do not accurately
>depict what the radar imaging system recorded. A rough
>estimation at best...certainly not enough to support
>identification of details in a postage stamp size sample.

The data used also shows on the NASA Tif. The image is by no
means small on Titan ground being very approximately 6 to 7
Kilometers across. If anyone is in the habit of neglecting data
over such a large area then can we interpret anything we see on
these NASA radar images at all unless we reduce 40x40 pixels
shown down to just one? If this is the case then all the NASA
radar image's are worthless.

>Good practice with the image editor, though.

>The data will be available shortly. Hopefully we will
>learn
>something useful, if not extraordinary.

I hope so, and do look forward to your interpretation of the raw
NASA data for this particular area and maybe the other area's of
interest when NASA make it available.

Now done a color artist impression of the finding at;

http://www.colsweb.com/Titan_Man1.gif

and added to

http://www.colsweb.com/TitanRadarExtract.htm

which increases awareness of what is shown on the NASA radar
strip/s Tiff and JPG image when they have the colors reversed -
 negative of the picture - in this particular area. There are of
course other area's too which could be worked up including upon
the very recent radar image of a Lava flow ( anomaly to right
approx middle ).


Kind wishes

Col









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             Re: Where Were The Pros During Mexico City Flap? -

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 06:59:47 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 05:08:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Where Were The Pros During Mexico City Flap? -



>From: Craig Parsons <filmseries.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 23:32:21 EST
>Subject: Where Were The Pros During Mexico City Flap?

<snip>

>With that in mind: While recently watching (again) a show
>featuring the famous Mexican sightings (the early 90's ones), it
>suddenly occured to me what I _wasn't_ seeing. Namely,
>professionally shot footage.

Well howdy Craig!

You've hit some great points there and I can only give you my
POV.

Asking for professionally shot footage of UFOs is like asking a
1 year-old child to eat without making a mess. The food don't
taste good unless it's been squashed and thrown and such.

People have the latest technologies in photography and will
still take footage or a pic with that inevitable thumb in the
frame, or a shot of the bride's foot or the grandma's elbow when
the cake candles are being blown out.

In professional video/photo you'ld expect more as you've pointed
out. Yet there's that suprise factor. When something unexpected
happens people get nervous. Even professionals. There's that
moment of hesitation to make sure you're actually believing what
you're seeing and then you've gotta calibrate your gizmos and
get what's left on camera.

As for the long duration stuff that perplexes me as well. If the
UFO pic or vid is too good, no one will believe it. Doesn't
matter how good it is.

Lotsa questions and that's the UFO biz. It's that Sisyphus
Syndrome I've often mentioned.


Best,

Greg







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   Nov > Nov 11

              Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -

From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 2:04:15 -1000
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 05:10:52 -0500
Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -


>From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 11:23:11 +1100
>Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online

<snip>

>For those of you on this List seriously interested in UFOs,
>take a good look at the great enhancement enlargement done by
>Terry Groff in the URL shown above. Well done Terry.

>These Orbs are genuine UFOs. They are not balloons and certainly
>not "spy satellites" or anything mystical. I have been fortunate
>to have witnessed and video taped this same type of UFO Orb on
>four different occasions this year and for 50 minutes in 1999.

<snip>

>Follow links on my UFO web site for more on these UFO Orbs:

>http://theozfactor.nucleardays.com


Barry,

You have amazing perception so that by looking at that fuzzy
enhanced image you are sure that it is not a cluster of balloons
but an orb UFO. Do you also see rods?

I looked at your website and to me it contains so much bunk
(just one example: the VRIL society and Nazi UFOs) that it is an
insult to serious UFO investigation.


Josh Goldstein








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             Re: Signs Of Intelligent Life On Titan? - Stevenson

From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 12:15:32 +0000 (GMT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 05:14:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Signs Of Intelligent Life On Titan? - Stevenson


>From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 21:53:56 -1000
>Subject: Re: Signs Of Intelligent Life On Titan?

<snip>

>You must be joking. When you posted your first image I saw the
>vague outline of a plus sign or a cross. Now with your latest
>images you seem to see some Titan insect shape or something. We
>have evolved great pattern recognition software in our brains
>but your raw image is so vague you can read whatever you want
>from it.

>This is almost as bad as George Filer's imaginary views of Mars.
>Are you guys so desperate to find some proof of extraterrestrial
>civilization that you read it into the most vague and anomalous
>images? This is like trying to call the vague balloon like
>object at a low altitude a satellite.

>In my opinion, if MUFON is taking this seriously, that shows how
>badly off they are. George Filer is the MUFON state director for
>New Jersey yet he is letting his imagination run away with him.
>It is sad that MUFON was going to be a serious scientific
>investigation of the phenomenon but became an amateurish
>exponent of flakiness.

Dear Josh

The data used also shows on the NASA Tif. The image is by no
means small on Titan ground being very approximately 6 to 7
Kilometers across. If anyone is in the habit of neglecting data
over such a large area then can we interpret anything we see on
these NASA radar images at all unless we reduce 40x40 pixels
shown down to just one? If this is the case then all the NASA
radar image's are worthless. Is that what you are saying?

I only said that MUFON were taking a look at it not that they
were saying it was for real. Ufologists will look at anything if
its approximately 7 kilometers in size I would think! Well, I
certainly would if it shouldn't be there.

No offense meant :-)

I enjoy looking at crop circles too.


Kind wishes

Col







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                  Re: Secrecy News -- 11/10/04 - Aftergood

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:08:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 06:02:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Secrecy News -- 11/10/04 - Aftergood


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 99
November 10, 2004


**      ARMY DOCTRINE ON COUNTERINSURGENCY OPERATIONS
**      SEEKING ALTERNATE SOURCES OF INFORMATION
**      STRATEGIC COMMUNICATION (DSB)
**      WAR WITHOUT A TAX INCREASE AND AN INEXPENSIVE PEACE


ARMY DOCTRINE ON COUNTERINSURGENCY OPERATIONS

A new Army doctrinal publication sets forth the principles of
U.S. military action in counterinsurgency operations.

It begins with a definition of terms and builds up to a detailed
treatment of intelligence, information operations and security
matters.

"An insurgency is organized movement aimed at the overthrow of a
constituted government through use of subversion and armed
conflict."

"Counterinsurgency is those military, paramilitary, political,
economic, psychological, and civic actions taken by a government
to defeat insurgency. It is an offensive approach involving all
elements of national power...."

The new Army field manual is unclassified. It is intended for
use in education and training; it is not an operational plan.

Nevertheless, the manual is not approved for public release. The
Army has blocked public access through military web sites.

But a copy was obtained by InsideDefense.com, which first
reported its development in August, and which courteously shared
a copy with Secrecy News.

See "Counterinsurgency Operations," FMI 3-07.22, US Army,
October 2004 (182 pages, 3 MB PDF file):

http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fmi3-07-22.pdf


SEEKING ALTERNATE SOURCES OF INFORMATION

The 9/11 Commission unanimously concluded that there was too
much secrecy in U.S. intelligence. Accordingly, as one of its 41
recommendations, the Commission called for declassification of
the intelligence budget "to combat the secrecy and complexity we
have described."

Now that's not going to happen. The bipartisan Commission
recommendation on budget disclosure, though endorsed by a
majority of the Senate (and even by then-Acting DCI John
McLaughlin), has been blocked by the Bush Administration, aided
by House Republicans. Far from combating inappropriate secrecy,
the Administration seems determined to bolster it.

Under the circumstances, Americans concerned with open,
accountable government need whatever new sources of reliable
information they can muster. Fortunately, such information is
easier to come by than ever before.

For those interested in defense policy, InsideDefense.com sells
primary source documents gathered by its team of Pentagon
reporters. A free weekly publication, The Insider, alerts
readers to new acquisitions, many of which (like the
Counterinsurgency manual above) have not been publicly released,
and which are available for purchase following a free initial
trial period. For the current issue see:

http://defense.iwpnewsstand.com/insider.asp

A new Coalition of Journalists for Open Government has been
established "to provide timely information on freedom of
information issues and on what journalism organizations are
doing to foster greater transparency in government." See their
web site here:

http://www.cjog.net/

A partial list of other organizations and web sites concerned
with secrecy-related issues may be found here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/secrecy.html


STRATEGIC COMMUNICATION (DSB)

A new study from the Defense Science Board on "Strategic
Communication" considers how the United States could more
effectively "communicate with and thereby influence worldwide
audiences."

"There is consensus... that U.S. public diplomacy is in crisis,"
says the DSB study, which recommends a series of steps that
could be taken to address the situation.

The report presents implicit criticism of the Bush
Administration, albeit in homeopathic proportions.

Thus it notes that "Good strategic communications cannot build
support for policies viewed unfavorably by large populations.
Nor can the most carefully crafted messages, themes, and words
persuade when the messenger lacks credibility and underlying
message authority."

Further, "Words in tone and substance should avoid offence where
possible; messages should seek to reduce, not increase,
perceptions of arrogance, opportunism, and double standards."

See "Report of the Defense Science Board Task Force on Strategic
Communication," September 2004 (111 pages, 1.8 MB PDF file):

http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/dod/dsb/commun.pdf


WAR WITHOUT A TAX INCREASE AND AN INEXPENSIVE PEACE

The Bush Administration's policy of cutting taxes while
launching a war in Iraq is extraordinary, but is it
unprecedented? Not quite.

"It seems hard to believe," wrote historian Otto Friedrich in a
history of Berlin in the 1920s, "but the incredible fact is that
Imperial Germany's conservative finance officials never levied a
single mark in extra taxes to pay the gigantic costs of World
War I."

"The German government planned, apparently, to recover its
expenses out of the reparations that the enemy would have to pay
once Hindenburg and Ludendorff had captured Paris."

But as it turned out, it was France that ended up demanding
reparations from Germany, with fateful consequences, not the
other way around. (O. Friedrich, "Before the Deluge," 1995
edition, p. 60).

One recalls the illusory assurances of the Bush Administration
that the rebuilding of Iraq would cost American taxpayers a
grand total of $1.7 billion.

"You're not suggesting that the rebuilding of Iraq is gonna be
done for $1.7 billion?" asked an incredulous Ted Koppel in a
2003 ABC News Nightline interview with Andrew Natsios, then-
administrator of the Agency for International Development (AID).

"Well, in terms of the American taxpayers' contribution, I do,
this is it for the US," Mr. Natsios replied.

"The rest of the rebuilding of Iraq will be done by other
countries who have already made pledges, Britain, Germany,
Norway, Japan, Canada, and Iraqi oil revenues, eventually in
several years, when it's up and running and there's a new
government that's been democratically elected, will finish the
job with their own revenues. They're going to get in $20 billion
a year in oil revenues. But the American part of this will be
1.7 billion. We have no plans for any further-on funding for
this."

The transcript of this April 23, 2003 Nightline interview was
quietly removed from the AID web site last year (as reported by
the Washington Post on 12/18/03). But a copy is preserved here
(thanks to BY):

http://www.fas.org/sgp/temp/natsios042303.html



_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

Secrecy News has an RSS feed at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood.nul
voice: (202) 454-4691








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                         Re: Kevin Randle? - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:11:46 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 06:06:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Kevin Randle? - Randle


I have returned from my duty in Iraq and was released from
active duty at the end of September... though we had things to
clean up. I am now, again, a member of the Iowa Army National
Guard and have been promoted to major.

For those of you keeping score at home, the situation in Iraq
bears little resemblence to the situation you see on television.
We had the opportunity to watch the three network news
broadcasts and found little in them that reflected our situation
and sometimes wondered where they were.

I have been taking it easy for the last few weeks, for those
interested, and have yet to move back into the UFO arena, though
I sometimes brush by it out of curiosity.

For those interested, Jesse Marcel was recalled to active duty
and now finds himself in Iraq. This is a stealth draft that has
gotten little media attention. He is stationed inside the Sunni
Triangle but not very close to some of the cities that you've
seen on the news. For the Marcels, we see the father in the
Pacific during World War II, Jesse Jr., around Vietnam and now
in Iraq.

Thanks for the concern about me.


Kevin D. Randle







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                   Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:45:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 05:20:53 -0500
Subject: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term


The financial problem facing ufology is a long term issue, and
my guess is that the problem will get far worse. While
popularity in the subject appears to be at an all time high, at
least as far as Internet traffic is concerned, this is very
diffuse and unorganized.

The "organizations" that have been involved in this research for
decades are seeing their support dwindle as the general public
goes to Internet sources for information (which is often
targetted to their particular interest).

It's a sad fact that many UFO publications sell fewer than 500
copies, unless they are picked up by a major publishing firm
that can market them properly, and often those sales barely
reach 100 copies. This barely covers the cost of printing,
storage, and distribution, so it isn't a money maker in any real
sense.

There are only a few people that have attempted to make a living
through their interest in UFOs, and it has proven to be very
limited.


Steve








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              Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:04:48 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 05:25:09 -0500
Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 14:35:44 -0600
>Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online

>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:53:17 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
>>Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online

>Like a pair of sneakers washing up on the beach of an
>uninhabited island, it appears that the flotsam and jetsam of
>the civilized world makes its way into some unusual places, to
>be marveled upon by those not expecting to see it. One can only
>envision the tortuous journey of the ill-fated balloon cluster,
>perhaps a token of affection... the cluster contains at least
>one red balloon and several white or near-white ones... to a
>loved one. Perhaps the recipient was not moved by the gesture
>and cast them to the heavens and forgot about them. Maybe it
>flew out of the car en route to its original destination. There
>is also the possibility that they are wayward souvenirs of a
>political rally here in the 'States... there appears to be a
>blue one or two... lost in the aftermath of political fervor and
>forgotten. I guess you would call these prosaic explanations?

How poetic!

Reminds me of the movie "The Gods Must Be Crazy" where someone
dropped a Coke bottle from an airplane which is found by a
remote African pygmy tribe.








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              Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:25:06 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 05:26:31 -0500
Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -


>From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:29:43 -0600
>Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online

>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:53:17 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
>>Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online

>>What would a spy satellite be doing at such a low 'orbit'? It
>>looks like it is a few feet off the ground (I mean you can see
>>the rocks in the background).

>"UFO or spy satellite?"

>"The geologists from the Space Applications Centre (SAC),
>Ahmedabad, and Himachal Pradesh, who saw the object, assert that
>it didn't behave anything like a balloon. But aerospace experts
>who have seen a photograph of the object argue that wind
>currents over the mountainous terrain and human perceptions of
>objects in a vast open space may explain whatever the geologists
>had observed. They also say that technology exists today to
>build small unmanned flying vehicles."

Okay, so you are just quoting the article and IT'S erroneous
belief that it could in any way possibly be a satellite. However,
it certainly SEEMED like you were stating that you believed
this to be the case. I guess I misintrepreted your true belief.

>>Do you know the speed it would be going to be in orbit?

I meant this rhetorically, but its nice that you have cranked
the numbers.

>The orbital velocity at 5500.00 kilometers is 5.79 km/sec!
>The orbital velocity at 500.00 kilometers is 7.61 km/sec!

Precisely!

>Do you know the number of minutes to go around the earth ? <G>

About 90 minutes for the circular orbit, more for the the
Molniya. Does it matter?

Oh. Now I get it! You are just being facetious with your
comments on the story and "analysis" of the image! It really is
just your sense of humor! I fell for it, didn't I?

Yes, pretty funny in retrospect! Keep the jokes coming! We need
all the humor we can get.








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                 Re: Books For Sale By Richard Hall - Smith

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:43:37 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 05:31:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Books For Sale By Richard Hall - Smith


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:12:46 EST
>Subject: Re: Books For Sale By Richard Hall

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 09:05:19 -0500
>>Subject: Books For Sale By Richard Hall

>I wonder where the skeptibunkers get their endless cash flow
>from?

Ha! Who's to say they are not doing about the same or slightly
better than Mr. Hall! I am as saddened by Mr. Hall's plight as
any of us.

The only people in this field that seem to have _any_ money are
spending more time on self-promotion than UFO research. If you
can appear on Coast-to-Coast enough, you can get some money via
the publicity.

Skeptics/debunkers, I would guess, are much less marketable than
all the UFO believers/researchers because the public will buy
the entertainment of UFOs and the paranormal but generally do
not want to shell out their dollars for debunking.

There are many more people that pay for seeing magicians than
people who tell how the magician's tricks are done.

Some people are entrepreneours. Most of us aren't.

I suppose if you constantly market yourself, do lectures, appear
on radio shows, write 100's of articles for magazines and
papers, you _might_ be able to make some money. If you don't do
this, then its highly unlikely you can ever make money. Even in
the off-chance of submitting to a government grant (somehow
related to UFOs), this requires a lot of work and self-promotion
and doesn't involve real UFO research.

Basically, it seems the best approach for the real world is to
do this research as a hobby, in your free time and do something
society will actually _pay_ you to do the rest of the time.








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                                 UFO Monthly

From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:28:37 +0000 (GMT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 05:40:03 -0500
Subject: UFO Monthly


The possible demise of UFO monthly at:

http://www.ufomonthly.com

was premature.

The site is now back up and running.


Stuart Miller








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              Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:55:17 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 05:36:21 -0500
Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -


>From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:10:07 -0600
>Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online

>Q: When you first were shown the picture from the Indian website
>provided by Daniel, if you were never shown other enhanced
>versions elsewhere, you made your first initial observation of
>it - what were your first impressions as to what you thought the
>object/s shown in photo might be? Now remember, forget that you
>saw Terry's photo. <G>

>http://www.telegraphindia.com/1041011/asp/knowhow/story_3833729.asp

>[ ] UFO

>[ ] Spy Satellite

>[ ] Balloon's

[X ] Other

I thought it likely to be balloons when looking at the original
picture, but really I thought it one more of the thousands of
UFO photos that will never be proven to be anything except
filler for a newpaper.


This is a much worse case than the Mexico City UFO flap, in
which we had lots of video, but it still did not make any
difference.  One video/ photo or a thousand. What does it take
to be taken seriously?

Either go get it or if it is still in flight, bring it down
first.








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                           NASA Shoots For Mach 10

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 10:32:22 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 05:39:03 -0500
Subject: NASA Shoots For Mach 10


Source: The Washington Post

Wednesday, November 10, 2004;

Page A01


With 'Scramjet,' NASA Shoots for Mach 10

By Guy Gugliotta
Washington Post Staff Writer

HAMPTON, Va. - They call it a "scramjet," an engine so
blindingly fast that it could carry an airplane from San
Francisco to Washington, D.C., in about 20 minutes - or even
quicker. So fast it could put satellites in space. So fast it
could drop a cruise missile on an enemy target, almost like
shooting a rifle.

Next week, NASA plans to break the aircraft speed record for the
second time in 7 1/2 months by flying its rocket-assisted X-43A
scramjet craft 110,000 feet above the Pacific Ocean at speeds
close to Mach 10 - about 7,200 mph, or 10 times the speed of
sound.

The flight will last perhaps 10 seconds and end with the
pilotless aircraft plunging to a watery grave 850 miles off the
California coast. But even if the X-43A doesn't set the record,
it has already proved that the 40-year-old dream of "hypersonic"
flight - using air-breathing engines to reach speeds above Mach
5 (3,800 mph) - has become reality.

Unlike rockets, which must carry oxygen with them as a
"combustor" to ignite the fuel supply, scramjets take oxygen
from the atmosphere, offering a huge savings in aircraft weight,
and researchers around the world would like to take advantage.

In northeast Australia, a scramjet team funded by the U.S. and
Australian armed forces will try for Mach 10 next year as a
first step in using a scramjet to put satellites in space. The
U.S. Air Force hopes to demonstrate within five years a
scramjet-driven cruise missile fast enough to drive explosives
deep into hardened targets. Other projects are moving forward in
France and Japan.

Under NASA's $250 million Hyper-X program, engineers at Langley
Research Center here and the Dryden Flight Research Center in
Edwards, Calif., designed and built three aluminum scramjet
aircraft, each one 12 feet long and weighing about 2,800 pounds
. Controllers aborted the first test flight in 2001 after the
rocket booster malfunctioned.

But the second, on March 24, reached Mach 6.83 (5,200 mph),
shattering the world speed record for air-breathing, non-rocket
aircraft, previously held by a jet-powered missile. The highest
speeds by manned aircraft were achieved by SR-71, the U.S. spy
plane known as the "Blackbird," capable of flying in excess of
Mach 3 (2,300 mph).

"The idea was to demonstrate these technologies," said Luat T.
Nguyen, deputy manager for the program that designed X-43A.
"We've done that. This is the first scramjet to work, and it is
the only one at this point."

Next week's third flight will test the limits of the X-43A.
Temperatures will be significantly higher: The leading edge of
the aircraft's nose will reach about 3,700 degrees Fahrenheit,
1,600 degrees hotter than during the March flight.

Also, Nguyen added, "it's more of a challenge to get it to
operate at Mach 10 rather than Mach 7. You want it to be robust
enough to give us the level of performance we're looking for,
and at Mach 10, the constraints are a little narrower."

Regardless of the outcome, however, the third flight will be the
last. The Hyper-X program ends, and there are no plans to
replace it. The next steps are largely up to researchers
elsewhere.

"What they have done is lay the foundation on how to go
further," Allan Paull, of Australia's University of Queensland,
the leader of the U.S.-Australia "HyShot" scramjet project, said
of NASA. "We live in a society of high tech that's built over
time. We went from the horse and cart to scramjets in 200
years."

Barring mechanical glitches or bad weather, the X-43A and its
Pegasus rocket booster will leave Dryden between 9:30 a.m. and 2
p.m. Pacific time, slung below the belly of a B-52B launch
aircraft.

About 50 miles off the California coast, the B-52 will drop the
craft at an altitude of 40,000 feet. The booster rocket will
ignite and bring the X-43A's speed close to Mach 10 at an
altitude of 110,000 feet. At that point, controllers will fire
two small pistons to jettison the rocket. Then they will open
the cowl covering the X-43A's air intake and light the engine.

Scramjets work on the same principle as all jet engines -
 igniting fuel in compressed air and aiming the expanding gases
to the rear to propel the aircraft forward. Standard turbojets
use fans to compress the air and can reach speeds of about Mach
2.2 (1,600 mph).

"Ramjets" can reach supersonic speeds of perhaps Mach 6 (4,600
mph) by using the plane's forward motion alone to bring air into
the combustion chamber. But the air must be slowed to subsonic
speed for ignition.

Scramjets (short for "supersonic combustion ramjets") are
ramjets that ignite fuel in air traveling at supersonic speeds,
a feat that NASA compares to "lighting a match in a hurricane."
For this to work, virtually the entire aircraft becomes an
enormous scoop, opening to receive the air and compressing it
before injecting a chemical called silane, which ignites in the
presence of air. The hydrogen fuel is added once the flame is
lighted.

Neither a ramjet nor a scramjet can operate from a standing
start. The Blackbird used a turbojet to reach high enough speeds
for its ramjet to work. The X-43A uses the rocket, and Nguyen
said Langley engineers predict the X-43A will reach a peak speed
of Mach 9.6 or Mach 9.7 before it burns all its liquid hydrogen
fuel and glides into the sea.

The X-43A will leave behind both a body of data and a practical
demonstration of an idea that aeronautical engineers have worked
on by fits and starts, through good and bad funding years, for
more than four decades.

"They put together a well-thought-out experimental process,
including ground tests, wind tunnel tests and flight," said
Charlie Brink, scramjet program manager for the Air Force
Research Laboratory at Ohio's Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.
"The coordination of all this [ground and flight] data to see
how it matched was spectacular. It provided a fundamental
baseline."

The Air Force's cruise missile program, known as "HyTech," is
developing a scramjet that burns hydrocarbon fuels - easier to
handle than liquid hydrogen. "The scramjet can travel hundreds
of miles in minutes to defeat time-critical targets," said Bob
Mercier, deputy for technology in the Air Force laboratory's
aerospace propulsion division. "In addition, the high speed
could improve penetration of hardened and deeply buried
targets."

Australia's Paull said in a telephone interview that HyShot
hopes to use scramjets to launch small satellites cheaply,
inserting them as the second stage of three-stage launch
vehicles. A rocket would get the spacecraft to scramjet speed,
and a third rocket stage would propel it once it gets above
Earth's atmosphere.

"Putting something into space and making it stay there are two
different things," Paull said.

It takes a speed of 25,000 mph to escape the pull of Earth's
gravity and get into orbit, "and we'd like to get 18,000 [mph]
from a scramjet," he added. "Can we do it? I don't know the
answer. If it doesn't work out, we'll just say, 'A rocket's the
best you can do, mate,' and pack it up."


c. 2004 The Washington Post Company








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                        NSA/CSS UFO Documents Index?

From: Joshua Dease <jdeasenasa.nul>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 12:08:19 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 05:41:52 -0500
Subject: NSA/CSS UFO Documents Index?


I tried to sort through some of the now declassified
information...

There were several items which had been struck through with
marker - does anyone know if there is any significant relevance
to these documents?


Josh Dease








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                         Re: Kevin Randle? - Warren

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:36:06 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 05:43:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Kevin Randle? - Warren


>From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 01:46:45 -0500
>Subject: Re: Kevin Randle?

>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 13:01:07 -0800
>>Subject: Kevin Randle?

>>Fellow Listerions,

>>Has anyone heard recently from, or about Kevin Randle and his
>>well-being?

>He went to Iraq, or is he sick? Your question made me think
>there might be somthing wrong with him that I haven't heard
>about. I'm curious to hear any info too. Especially since we
>been losing alot of people in this field of late.

Aaron, Et Al,

He did go to Iraq, and I believe there was an update shortly
after that and nothing since, hence the reason for my
question.....

Frank








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             Re: Where Were The Pros During Mexico City Flap? -

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 13:03:22 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 05:46:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Where Were The Pros During Mexico City Flap? -


>From: Craig Parsons <filmseries.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 23:32:21 EST
>Subject: Where Were The Pros During Mexico City Flap?

<snip>

>With that in mind: While recently watching (again) a show
>featuring the famous Mexican sightings (the early 90's ones), it
>suddenly occured to me what I _wasn't_ seeing. Namely,
>professionally shot footage.

>The TV journalist (Jaime Maussan) who was in the forefront of
>discussing the phenomena spoke about how there was hundreds, if
>not thousands, of home video tapes of the UFOs. He personally
>did several shows about it with panel discussions, etc.

>So, here's the rub: With the UFOs showing up day after day over
>Mexico City and hanging around for more than just a minute or
>two, why didn't his station have a camera near the roof of their
>studio (or even in the street) with a long sports lens and have
>a crew ready to start filming?

>As I watched this, that just hit me so strongly. I've worked in
>the video production arena and first-off, with an on-going story
>like this it seems incomprehensible that they didn't film
>anything but just relied on amateur tapes.

You have hit on a serious problem noted long ago: the official
"non-interest" of the major media.

During the late 80's and early 90's there were hundreds of
sightings in the panhandle area of Florida.

The Ed Walters sightings and photos attracted considerable
interest and occasionally documentary types and entertainment
media would do stories on the sightings However, between Nov.
1990 and July 1992 there were over a hundred sightings recorded
by people who did sky watching almost every night for several
years.

Non-local TV and others visited the area and were often able to
catch the red "bubba" object seen numerous times passing
throught the skies of Gulf Breeze. However, the local TV station
and other major local media (except for a small weekly
newspaper) studiously ignored the sightings even though
reporters were invited to accompany the skywatchers.

Many years earlier sightings in Norwood, Illinois, sightings
that involved a searchlight detecting some object hovering over
the area, were only briefly mentioned in media despite the
recurrent events over several days.

Perhaps the major media feel that if one of their reporters
becomes a witness this could spoil their "objectivity".








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              Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -

From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 12:05:09 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 05:48:49 -0500
Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 18:56:15 -0600
>Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online

>>From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:10:07 -0600
>>Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online

><snip>

>>Q: When you first were shown the picture from the Indian website
>>provided by Daniel, if you were never shown other enhanced
>>versions elsewhere, you made your first initial observation of
>>it - what were your first impressions as to what you thought the
>>object/s shown in photo might be? Now remember, forget that you
>>saw Terry's photo. <G>

>>http://www.telegraphindia.com/1041011/asp/knowhow/story_3833729.asp

><snip>

>I think when most people are shown a photograph of balloons,
>they tend to see balloons. If the photograph shows balloons in
>an unusual setting, people tend to perceive the balloons as out
>of place, and therefore tend to question their initial
>perception. These scientists described exactly what they
>saw...balloons. they were perplexed by the behavior, not the
>appearance, of the object.


Hi Kyle,

Here is a real survey.

If you want to see the results at any time just click on 'vote
now'.

It knows your IP address so you will get one vote only. To be
fair, I voted for spy satellite <g>This online survey tool
might be useful for List members, the easy wizard puts it all
together, no programming is involved.

http://www.coolsurveys.com/cgi-bin/cSurvey?ibsopo


John









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                     Southaven UFO Footage/Photos Needed

From: Scott Carr <sardonica.nul>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 13:14:29 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 05:52:08 -0500
Subject: Southaven UFO Footage/Photos Needed


Dear List

I'm currently involved in some in-depth research on alleged the
Southaven UFO crash. While I am already somewhat familiar with
the case and have found a great wealth of information online, in
various publications, and in this list's archives, I would be
very much grateful if anyone could point me towards somewhere
that I might acquite (even for a fee) any footage and/or photos
pertaining to the incident itself or subsequent research.

Also, I would be grateful for any witnesses or researchers
involved in the case should feel free to email me at:

sardonica.nul

Thanks in advance!

Scott C. Carr
Chief Editor, The Flying Saucer Gazette
www.erols.com/sardonica/










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              Re: Signs Of Intelligent Life On Titan? - LeClair

From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:15:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 05:53:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Signs Of Intelligent Life On Titan? - LeClair


>From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 21:53:56 -1000
>Subject: Re: Signs Of Intelligent Life On Titan?

>In my opinion, if MUFON is taking this seriously, that shows how
>badly off they are. George Filer is the MUFON state director for
>New Jersey yet he is letting his imagination run away with him.
>It is sad that MUFON was going to be a serious scientific
>investigation of the phenomenon but became an amateurish
>exponent of flakiness.

I left MUFON several years ago due to this sort of thing. Their
reputation has gone down hill, unfortunately.








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                         The UFO Guy Comes To Boise

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 13:19:59 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 05:56:07 -0500
Subject: The UFO Guy Comes To Boise


Source: Boise Weekly

http://www.boiseweekly.com/more.php?id=4832_0_1_0_M

11-10-04


Saucer Bureaucracy

The UFO guy comes to Boise
by Nicholas Collias

Robert Hastings has an important news flash for Idahoans. "Our
military," the speaker and researcher begins, "has not yet
developed any aircraft that can go 2,000 miles an hour in one
direction, stop on a dime and reverse direction."

Not a surprise?

This might be: thousands of craft with precisely those
capabilities have been spotted, tracked and sometimes forcefully
engaged while hovering surreptitiously around America's nuclear
weapons bases. You may not believe in it, but your government
does, and has for almost 50 years. Hastings can prove that part
beyond any reasonable doubt.

For almost 25 years, Hastings has made a living that sounds
almost too easy to be a real job. He relays, through lectures at
colleges and universities, piles of government data that is free
and easily available to any citizen with a home address and a
sense of curiosity. He also calls the people in the documents, be
they retired military personnel or FAA air traffic controllers,
to verify their stories. That's it. Consider him the Matthew
Lesko (that guy with the question marks on his suit) of UFOs. The
passkey to his world is the Freedom of Information Act of 1966.
This act allows Hastings, or anyone else, access to millions of
pages of previously classified information from the CIA, FBI and
all branches of the military-and at least 10,000 of the pages
relate, in no uncertain terms, to governmental encounters with
aircraft straight out of War of the Worlds.

"I don't pretend to know the rhyme or reason of the sightings, or
why a given area is more prone to them at a particular time than
others," he promises. "But the fact remains that flying discs, or
saucers or UFOs have demonstrated a decades-long interest in the
U.S. nuclear weapons program." Hastings first experienced this
phenomena in 1967, at the nuke stronghold of Malmstrom Air Force
Base in western Montana, when only a 17-year-old self-described
"Air Force brat." While hanging out in the air control tower one
evening, he was shocked to learn that five nearby UFOs were being
tracked on radar. Fighter jets were launched to intercept them,
but the craft performed a vertical ascent at speeds beyond any
human capability and escaped. From that moment, Hastings' path
was clear.

At age 23, he began interviewing retired military personnel about
UFOs, albeit merely "for my own curiosity." By age 30, he had
compiled enough documents and witness accounts that his attitude
had changed. "I began to conclude that this is a legitimate issue
for public awareness, despite the ongoing position of the
military intelligence and national security communities that the
public should be kept in the dark about it," he explains.
Hastings has spent the ensuing years formulating and continually
updating his lecture, "UFOs: The Hidden History," a 90-minute
slide show about the most striking and undisputable UFO
encounters from the 1950s to today-and rest assured, there are
many, many encounters still being reported today.

Attendees of Hastings' November 15 presentation at Boise State
will come away with an excess of the most scintillating type of
water cooler stories, including fighter/UFO dogfights, nuclear
launch sequences that mysteriously start themselves and UFO
crashes on government property. But even if you can't muster the
$1 entry fee, plan on hearing a lot more from Hastings and his
contacts in the near future. Peter Jennings Productions is
currently in production of a two-hour primetime documentary, set
to broadcast on ABC in early 2005, exclusively about military UFO
encounters and utilizing many of Hastings' interviewees.








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                      UFO Review Issue 6 November 2004

From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 19:54:32 +0000 (GMT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 06:00:10 -0500
Subject: UFO Review Issue 6 November 2004


Issue 6 of UFO Review (November 2004) is now ready and available
at:

http://www.uforeview.net

As usual, top left hand button marked "Current Issue". 5.5mb PDF
download

We bring you the usual controversial and stimulating mix. There
is an interview with Professor Chandra Wickramasinghe, who,
along with Sir Fred Hoyle is the leading modern day proponent of
the theory of Panspermia. Professor Wicramasinghe explains how
they started, why they became interested, how it developed, and
what opposition they met on the way. He gives his views on the
probablity of intelligent Life elsewhere and a number of other
insights. It was a privilege speaking to this gentleman and the
interview is fascinating.

And from the sublime we go to "round 2" in the Battle Of
Britain. Round 1 was the interview with Andy Roberts two issues
ago. Round 2 is an "answer" interview with his arch nemesis Max
Burns who eloquently gives his side of the dispute. "Dispute" is
an understatement. This interview is not for the faint of heart
as Max cuts a swathe through British Ufology. November is "Max
Month" as also being published is a follow up to his original
Notes From The Borderlands article.

Can there be room for more? You bet. There is a fascinating but
depressing article from Andrew Pike on the Science and Politics
of Mars, Roger Anderton writes about the Mysterious Origins of
Einstein and Kithra tells us about the Lost Land of Lyonesse.
And there's more still, imcluding a review of the Probe
conference in Blackpool in the UK in October.

Just in case you're getting giddy with the seriousness of it
all, there are the usual severe and rather wicked send-ups and
what passes for satire in the editor's tiny mind.

All at:

http://www.uforeview.net









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                   Hall Files Tax-Deductible Contribution

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 17:21:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 07:44:58 -0500
Subject: Hall Files Tax-Deductible Contribution

-----


John B. Carlson, Ph.D., Director
The Center for Archaeoastronomy


Dear Friends of Richard Hall and the Donald E. Keyhoe Archives,

Richard Hall, my long-term friend and fellow researcher in the
field of UFO studies, has recently told me that he is having
serious financial problems. This has forced him to consider the
possible sale of his personal UFO research library and papers.
All of you who know Dick are aware that he has an extensive and
unique research collection and also remains an active researcher
and compiler of the data. This agonizing decision would be a
true calamity for him and for the field if he is forced to part
with his research materials.

After talking this over with Dick, I have one possible solution
to the immediate problem that depends on someone or some
consortium of persons purchasing the collection (or providing
funds to purchase the collection) to be made as a tax-deductible
contribution to the Center for Archaeoastronomy of which I am
the Director. The Center for Archaeoastronomy is an IRS tax-
 exempt 501(c)3 not-for-profit research and educational
institute incorporated in the State of Maryland to promote
studies of the astronomical practices, celestial lore, mythology
and cosmologies of all ancient and contemporary indigenous
peoples.... essentially an anthropology of astronomy. You may
learn more about us at our web site:

http://www.archaeoastronomy.net

Dick Hall and I are neighbors and live less than two miles
apart. The arrangement we have discussed would be for ALL of his
materials to remain with him until such time that he would
choose to make other legally-documented arrangements. This
donation could be made in either of two ways: (1) the research
collection could be purchased from Dick and then donated to the
Center for an agreed upon appraised value as a charitable tax
deduction, or (2) the funds could be donated directly to the
Center which would then pay the full amount to Dick in exchange
for the collection which would remain in his custody.  In either
case, it is imperative to do this before the end of this
calendar year.

Please contact Dick Hall directly at <hallrichard99.nul>
to discuss the value of the collection and amount of the
donation. We both hope that some of you who might benefit from a
charitable tax-deductible donation for this tax year could step
forward to save the situation.

Thank you so much for your consideration,

John

John B. Carlson, Ph.D., Director
The Center for Archaeoastronomy
P. O. Box "X"
College Park, MD  20741-3022  USA
(301) 864-6637  office
http://www.archaeoastronomy.net

--









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                   Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports?

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 23:38:47 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 07:47:05 -0500
Subject: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports?

Hi,

Anyone got any papers or books where supposed crashed or
captured UFO/ET craft were recovered and there is material
analysis done on said remnants?

I know there are bits and pieces here and there but am unaware
of any comprehensive look at them.


Best,

Greg








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             Re: Where Were The Pros During Mexico City Flap? -

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 05:31:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 07:48:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Where Were The Pros During Mexico City Flap? -


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 06:59:47 EST
>Subject: Re: Where Were The Pros During Mexico City Flap?

<snip>

>In professional video/photo you'ld expect more as you've pointed
>out. Yet there's that suprise factor. When something unexpected
>happens people get nervous. Even professionals. There's that
>moment of hesitation to make sure you're actually believing what
>you're seeing and then you've gotta calibrate your gizmos and
>get what's left on camera.

>As for the long duration stuff that perplexes me as well. If the
>UFO pic or vid is too good, no one will believe it. Doesn't
>matter how good it is.

As we sit back and attempt to analyze this from data that is
very limited, I think it's a mistake to believe that everyone in
Mexico City saw these unusual lights in the sky. It's also a
mistake, IMO, to believe that everyone was interpreting them as
highly unusual and potentially alien craft.

We've seen several dramatic cases where professional
photographers at sporting events have scanned upwards from the
game to film meteors or other atmospheric events. They appear to
have been taken by surprise and simple scanned the camera up to
put the event in perspective with the game that they were
actually paid to photograph. While I think the possibility of
photographs has been raised by the increased use of digital
cameras and video cameras, I'm not convinced that this would
translate into more professional looking photographs.

Just a few thoughts on this Veterans Day.


Steve








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                 We Are All Safer - The NTSB & Conspiracies

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 08:07:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 08:07:51 -0500
Subject: We Are All Safer - The NTSB & Conspiracies




Source: http://cactus.eas.asu.edu/Partha/Columns/2002/03-25-ntsb.htm

03-25-02


We Are All Safer - The NTSB And Conspiracies
Partha Dasgupta

The opening line of the NTSB web page states "The National
Transportation Safety Board is an independent Federal agency
charged by Congress with investigating every civil aviation
accident in the United States and significant accidents in the
other modes of transportation =85 and issuing safety
recommendations aimed at preventing future accidents." Most of
us wholeheartedly agree that the NTSB lives up to its goals and
beyond. It is one of the few governmental agencies in the world
almost untainted with accusations of bureaucracy, inefficiency,
ineffectiveness, bias and the slew of such negativities hurled
at most major organizations.

The mission of the NTSB is short and succinct "to prevent
accidents and save lives in transportation". The NTSB lives up
to this mission by performing thorough, no-holds-barred
investigations over every mishap that happens in the US and
beyond its borders. These investigations leads to deeper
insights into the cause of accidents and eventually trends.
These trends lead to "recommendations" by the NTSB, which are
taken seriously=97and lead to changes in design, manufacture,
operation and training of transportation, notably aviation.

"We Are All Safer" is a publication of the NTSB that chronicles
the findings and recommendations and subsequent changes that
have happened as the board presided over the safety issues. It
is a fascinating read of major accidents and the conclusions.
=46rom windshear to aircraft seats, from alcohol impairment to
safety belts, from aircraft design to crew management, about 300
NTSB recommendations are implemented every year. These have
saved countless lives and have made travel significantly safer
for all of us.

In spite of the kudos and the respect the NTSB has garnered, no
organization staffed by people can be above controversy. On
October 31, 1999 at 1:20 am, Egypt Air flight 990 took off on a
clear dark night, from New York=92s JFK Airport, bound for a 10-
hour flight to Cairo. About 30 minutes into the flight as dinner
service was in full swing in the cabin, something went awfully
wrong. At 1:50am the plane was at 33,000 ft when it entered a
steep dive and reaching "negative G=92s" and sped up well beyond
its maximum design speed of 0.86 Mach. Soon thereafter, the
speed went to 0.99 Mach and the plane fell to 22,000 ft. Then
the plane pulled up, inflicting enormous G forces and climbed to
27,000ft where at 1:52am the stress broke the structures apart.
The wreckage was strewn on the ocean 60 miles of the
Massachusetts coast (International waters).

In spite of the accident being outside the jurisdiction of the
United States, the NTSB was commissioned to investigate along
with ECAA (the Egyptian Civil Aviation Authority). The result
was dubious at best. The NTSB released its final report on March
13, 2002. The 160-page document consists of a 70-page report
detailing every possible scenario along with charts, graphs and
investigation findings. The final conclusion is sinister=97the
plane was deliberately crashed by a suicidal "relief pilot", Mr.
El Battouti, who was a passenger on the flight, but was at the
controls with permission from the captain. The document also
contains 40 pages of transcripts of the cockpit voice recorder
and 34 pages of a scathing response from ECAA.

The response to the NTSB report, from ECAA is unflattering at
best. A section heading reads "The NTSB=92s Investigation Was
Marked By Procedural Irregularities and the Failure to Follow
Accepted Accident Investigation Standards" and includes a
comment stating "The NTSB=92s actions, unfortunately, resulted in
an extraordinary waste of time, effort, and resources=85".

The ECAA also published a 226-page report, with amazing amount
of technical depth, and thoroughness of investigations. The
technical content of the ECAA report in many ways outshines the
NTSB report. The conclusions are however different. According to
the ECAA there is no evidence that Mr. El Battouti did anything
detrimental; in fact his actions were consistent with trying to
recover from a bad situation. While not conclusive, the accident
has a high possibility of being caused by a simultaneous
mechanical failure of two of the three "Power Control Actuators"
that control the elevator surfaces. Both reports can be found at
the NTSB web site (www.ntsb.gov).

The wrestling between NTSB and ECAA smack of international
politics. The American agency absolves an American aircraft of
any malfunction and points the finger at an Egyptian crewmember
with murderous intentions. The Egyptian agency holds its citizen
above reproach and points the finger at the American aircraft.
However, if the story ended there, it would be a relief.

There are many other theories of this crash, a notable one is
from an outfit called the "Enterprise Mission". In their expose,
they present seemingly irrefutable evidence (based on NTSB
findings) that explain the crash not as a suicidal act or a
mechanical failure. The crash was a result of a desperate move
by the pilots to avoid a mid-air collision with a UFO. Radar
blips of some object near the aircraft further reinforce this
theory. The radar echoes are acknowledged by the NTSB report,
but dismissed as electrical noise.

TWA-800, a Boeing 747 took off from JFK bound for Paris in July
1996. The aircraft blew apart 10 minutes after takeoff. Almost
the entire plane was reconstructed from the debris and every
recoverable part was examined. The investigation was thorough,
very painstaking and expensive. The conclusion, contained in an
exhaustive 341 page report, was a "probably cause" of "an
explosion of the center wing fuel tank".

The controversy surrounding this conclusion is overwhelming. The
alternate theory is that a missile accidentally, or maybe
deliberately shot down the plane. The evidence presented by the
missile theorists is also thorough and painstaking. From
eyewitness reports to bullet-like holes in the fuselage, to many
other stories the evidence seems conclusive that the NTSB report
is flawed. Most of the evidence in the missile theory is
acknowledged in the NTSB report (which contains 736 eyewitness
reports). The NTSB offers alternate reasons for discounting the
alternate evidence. Somewhat disturbing is that a respected
journalist, Pierre Salinger, who bolstered the alternate theory,
was subsequently ostracized and character assassinated by his
fellow colleagues, lending credence to those who claim the
government and the mainstream media conspired a cover-up.

In recent times, airline accidents continue to be controversial.
United flight 73 was one of the four flights hijacked on the
infamous 9/11 attacks, in which two planes downed the World
Trade Center and one crashed the Pentagon. The official line is
that United 73 flew headlong into the ground while passengers
and hijackers had fistfights in the cockpit.

The alternate theorists point out too many inconsistencies in
the official explanation. The wreckage is concentrated in two
spots, eight miles apart. How did hat happen? The FBI has
refused to released the cockpit voice recorder transcripts
saying the "tape is too horrible" and would not contribute to
anything. Supposedly witnesses heard explosions before they saw
the plane come crashing down. Supposedly they saw another
"mystery jet". The amount of material culled by the theorists is
quite overwhelming. The conclusion? Many people believe that the
plane was either shot down by a military jet (to prevent it from
being used like the other three planes) or there was a bomb
aboard. Is there any truth to such theories? We will probably
never know.

Similar theories dog the official reasons extended for the crash
of American Airlines flight 587. A month after the World Trade
center tragedy, shortly after takeoff from JFK (gosh, is JFK
such a bad place?) the plane crashed into a residential suburb
of New York. Preliminary briefings from the NTSB, who have
studied the wreckage, interviewed 350 witnesses, examined the
flight recorders and worked very hard, is that the tail of the
plane fell off, or rather there was "separation of the vertical
stabilizer". Again, the naysayers do not believe that. "Yet
another cover up", they cry. There was a bomb on the plane. And
once again, they have evidence to back up the claims.

To take the side of such alternate viewpoints, they serve a very
important function=97the function of a hawkish, though
overbearing, watchdog. Governments and the military do lie.
There have been many admissions from the US government of past
lies (well after the perpetrators are gone). All of these
admissions are forced by evidence culled by the so-called
conspiracy groups (so named, as they see a conspiracy to cover
up, behind every governmental statement).

In spite of the few controversies the NTSB remains a jewel in
the crown of the US government. One of the 4 goals of the NTSB
is "To be the best managed agency in government in order to
facilitate the accomplishment of our other goals." Every time
you board a commercial aircraft in any part of the world, be
reassured that the flight will be a safe one. Dedication,
perseverance, people, technology, scientific rigor and a quest
for the truth have led to safety standards of historical
proportions. In spite of accidents, terrorism, UFO=92s, suicides,
weather, pilot error and other oddities, about 1.6 million
people check-in to airplanes every year, and about 300 fail to
check-out.

---

Partha Dasgupta is on the faculty of the Computer Science and
Engineering Department at Arizona State University in Tempe. His
specializations are in the areas of Operating Systems,
Cryptography and Networking. His homepage is at:

http://cactus.eas.asu.edu/partha


[UFO UpDates thanks Norm for the lead]









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                Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? -

From: Larry Cekander <larryroyc.nul>
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 05:07:12 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 23:33:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? -


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 23:38:47 EST
>Subject: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports?

>Anyone got any papers or books where supposed crashed or
>captured UFO/ET craft were recovered and there is material
>analysis done on said remnants?

>I know there are bits and pieces here and there but am unaware
>of any comprehensive look at them.


This link may interest you:

http://ufoevidence.conforums.com/index.cgi

Larry


=====
In 1985 an object landed in Colorado. Bob White recovered that
object and it didn't come from this planet...

http://ufoevidence.conforums.com/index.cgi

This metal matches nothing being manufactured on this planet.

For information booking Bob White or the Mobile Museum Bus for
your UFO event please contact us at one of these numbers.

1-417-272-9620
1-417-250-0543
1-417-739-2471









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                Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? -

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 08:13:19 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 23:39:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? -


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 23:38:47 EST
>Subject: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports?

>Anyone got any papers or books where supposed crashed or
>captured UFO/ET craft were recovered and there is material
>analysis done on said remnants?

>I know there are bits and pieces here and there but am unaware
>of any comprehensive look at them.

Greg, and list,

I would be interested in _any_ scientific analysis of debris
recovered from an alleged crash site. Unfortunately, the cases
that I can recall have no provenance beyond the claims of one
person, and many have been identified as hoaxes.


Steve








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              Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 07:35:38 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 23:41:28 -0500
Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -


>From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 12:05:09 -0600
>Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online

<snip>

>Hi Kyle,

>Here is a real survey.

>If you want to see the results at any time just click on 'vote
>now'.

>It knows your IP address so you will get one vote only. To be
>fair, I voted for spy satellite <g>This online survey tool
>might be useful for List members, the easy wizard puts it all
>together, no programming is involved.
>
>http://www.coolsurveys.com/cgi-bin/cSurvey?ibsopo


Hi John,

Surveys are decidedly un-scientific. Note the exit poll surveys
from the recent election, and their extreme deviation from the
actual election results.

Also, a survey sometimes nudges toward a certain response,
whether intended or not, and people tend to follow the nudge.

For example, I would have felt better about my vote if the word
balloons did not have a possessive apostrophe attached. See, if
I was picky I might have chosen Other out of grammatical spite
alone.

A 16th century survey of 10 scientists, which posed the question
... who's right, Brahe or Copernicus? Would likely have yielded
a 100% verdict for Brahe, unless the dissenting opinion of
Galileo were included to make it 90% for Brahe.

History reveals that the 10% opinion is sometimes the right one.

One reason why I try hard not to ridicule opinions expressed
here.

This photograph is not worthy of further study, just as I'm sure
the scientists involved have gone back to their glacier research
rather than hitting the talk-show circuit to discuss their
discovery.


Best Regards,

Kyle








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              Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 07:43:58 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 23:43:18 -0500
Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:04:48 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
>Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online

<snip>

>How poetic!

>Reminds me of the movie "The Gods Must Be Crazy" where someone
>dropped a Coke bottle from an airplane which is found by a
>remote African pygmy tribe.

Hi James,

A hilariously apt analogy. The Gods Must be Crazy was one of my
favorite old art-house flicks along with Koyaanisqatsi and the
midnight movie classic... and a UFO-related one at that... Rocky
Horror Picture Show.

It is amazing how a blurry photo can be interpreted as a cluster
of balloons by one interested observer, and as a sophisticated
surveillance device by another, and as an extraterrestrial or
inter-dimensional orb being by still another.

A Rohrschach test indeed.

The silence of our more distinguished UFO wonks is deafening on
this issues. Not even worth a guffaw, unless we count John
Sheldroup's tongue in cheek analysis.

I found an account of a potentially similar event here...

http://xo.typepad.com/blog/2004/01/ever_wondered_h.html

Oddly enough, there is no mention of the balloon being perceived
as a UFO, while a SpongeBob balloon might appear very
un-balloon-like at a distance.

But the interesting point is that it traveled many hundreds of
miles in just two days.

Our Himalayan cluster may have, and most likely did, come from
many hundreds of miles away as well.

Those who hope to find anomaly in photographs are biased at the
outset, and photographs are inherently anomalous when used as
proof of what is depicted in them. Photographs rarely disappoint
in evoking diverse interpretations.


Best,

Kyle








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                         Re: Kevin Randle? - Warren

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 07:37:39 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 23:45:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Kevin Randle? - Warren


>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:11:46 EST
>Subject: Re: Kevin Randle?

>I have returned from my duty in Iraq and was released from
>active duty at the end of September... though we had things to
>clean up. I am now, again, a member of the Iowa Army National
>Guard and have been promoted to major.

>For those of you keeping score at home, the situation in Iraq
>bears little resemblence to the situation you see on television.
>We had the opportunity to watch the three network news
>broadcasts and found little in them that reflected our situation
>and sometimes wondered where they were.

>I have been taking it easy for the last few weeks, for those
>interested, and have yet to move back into the UFO arena, though
>I sometimes brush by it out of curiosity.

>For those interested, Jesse Marcel was recalled to active duty
>and now finds himself in Iraq. This is a stealth draft that has
>gotten little media attention. He is stationed inside the Sunni
>Triangle but not very close to some of the cities that you've
>seen on the news. For the Marcels, we see the father in the
>Pacific during World War II, Jesse Jr., around Vietnam and now
>in Iraq.

>Thanks for the concern about me.

>Kevin D. Randle


Kevin,

Glad to know you've returned and you're okay! I wasn't aware that
Marcel was "tapped for service" in Iraq - unbelievable!

I for one would like to hear more about "what really is going
on" in Iraq opposed to what we are spoon fed from the corporate
controlled mainstream media (CCMM).

This might not be suitable for "List consumption," as it isn't
related to UFOs directly; however, it may be another example of
how the media manipulates the news we Americans consume, and "in
that sense" I deem it acceptable - of course the choice is
Errol's.

If not okay for the List Kevin, if you have time, and desire,
I'd like to hear your views off-List.


Thanks,

Frank








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             Re: Where Were The Pros During Mexico City Flap? -

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 08:00:52 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 23:46:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Where Were The Pros During Mexico City Flap? -


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 13:03:22 -0500
>Subject: Where Were The Pros During Mexico City Flap?

<snip>

>Perhaps the major media feel that if one of their reporters
>becomes a witness this could spoil their "objectivity".

Hi Bruce,

Discerning objectivity in today's major media is like discerning
a multi-kilometer carving of a horn-carrying man on bug-back
from an image of random terrain.

You really have to squint hard to convince yourself of either.


Best Regards,

Kyle







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                          Re: Kevin Randle? - Boone

From: Evolbaby.nul
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 09:19:27 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 23:48:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Kevin Randle? - Boone


>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:11:46 EST
>Subject: Re: Kevin Randle?

>I have returned from my duty in Iraq and was released from
>active duty at the end of September... though we had things to
>clean up. I am now, again, a member of the Iowa Army National
>Guard and have been promoted to major.

>For those of you keeping score at home, the situation in Iraq
>bears little resemblence to the situation you see on television.
>We had the opportunity to watch the three network news
>broadcasts and found little in them that reflected our situation
>and sometimes wondered where they were.

>I have been taking it easy for the last few weeks, for those
>interested, and have yet to move back into the UFO arena, though
>I sometimes brush by it out of curiosity.

>For those interested, Jesse Marcel was recalled to active duty
>and now finds himself in Iraq. This is a stealth draft that has
>gotten little media attention. He is stationed inside the Sunni
>Triangle but not very close to some of the cities that you've
>seen on the news. For the Marcels, we see the father in the
>Pacific during World War II, Jesse Jr., around Vietnam and now
>in Iraq.

>Thanks for the concern about me.


Thank goodness you're back safe Kevin!

Congrats on the promotion. Thanks also for the true to heart
realistic report from the front lines.

Yes there are stealth things going on and it's getting to feel
like the 'Nam days again. A large part of my day is back to
veteran support things. In my family it's been 200 + years of
this and you'd figure we'd be used to it by now. Not even.


Best,

Greg







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             Re: Where Were The Pros During Mexico City Flap? -

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 09:40:07 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 23:49:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Where Were The Pros During Mexico City Flap? -


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 13:03:22 -0500
>Subject: Where Were The Pros During Mexico City Flap?

>>From: Craig Parsons <filmseries.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 23:32:21 EST
>>Subject: Where Were The Pros During Mexico City Flap?

><snip>

>>With that in mind: While recently watching (again) a show
>>featuring the famous Mexican sightings (the early 90's ones), it
>>suddenly occured to me what I _wasn't_ seeing. Namely,
>>professionally shot footage.

<snip>

>You have hit on a serious problem noted long ago: the official
>"non-interest" of the major media.

<snip>

>Perhaps the major media feel that if one of their reporters
>becomes a witness this could spoil their "objectivity".

Actually Doc, It's not that the mainstream isn't interested,
they're not going to stick their necks out after seeing what
happens to those reporters who do.

Seems to me the more military/intelligence a guy is the more he
is allowed to get away with something. More on that story later.

Some of us news people are warned to shut up or shown what might
happen if we go against the grain. Problem with that is the
folks doing the threatening didn't take into account whom they
were threatening and what we really might be.

Sorta the mistake the weasle made when he cussed out the
rattler's tail for waking him up with it's noise and didn't see
the snake attached to it.


Best,

Greg








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              Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -

From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:49:28 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 23:54:51 -0500
Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:25:06 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
>Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online

>>From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:29:43 -0600
>>Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online

<snip>

>Oh. Now I get it! You are just being facetious with your
>comments on the story and "analysis" of the image! It really is
>just your sense of humor! I fell for it, didn't I?


Yep!

Bet I know where some have their goats tied up <chuckle>

John








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              Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:44:34 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 23:57:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term - King


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:45:56 -0500
>Subject: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term

>The financial problem facing ufology is a long term issue, and
>my guess is that the problem will get far worse. While
>popularity in the subject appears to be at an all time high, at
>least as far as Internet traffic is concerned, this is very
>diffuse and unorganized.

>The "organizations" that have been involved in this research for
>decades are seeing their support dwindle as the general public
>goes to Internet sources for information (which is often
>targetted to their particular interest).

>It's a sad fact that many UFO publications sell fewer than 500
>copies, unless they are picked up by a major publishing firm
>that can market them properly, and often those sales barely
>reach 100 copies. This barely covers the cost of printing,
>storage, and distribution, so it isn't a money maker in any real
>sense.

>There are only a few people that have attempted to make a living
>through their interest in UFOs, and it has proven to be very
>limited.


Hi Steve,

Science has never been a particularly lucrative endeavor. Trying
to buck the scientific status quo has in fact resulted in ruin
and worse throughout history.

Funding is the key however, and attracting funding is the
challenge.

One major hindrance to funding is the proliferation of pseudo-
scientific publications claiming irrefutable proof, the smoking
gun, never before seen data, and other hyperbolic claims not
necessarily supported by the content therein.

Another hindrance is the persistent feeling that the study of
UFOs is best left to the mad scientist types... the same types
who claim to have harnessed free energy or that the earth is
hollow or that we never really went to the moon.

The face of modern Ufology these days is Stan Friedman. In any
serious discussion of the subject, Stan is considered a seminal
figure. I have great respect for the work Stan has done. I do
also however see that Stan... to the general viewing public...
appears very much as one of those mad scientist, one who would
almost be expected to have some far-flung theory. He seems to
look the part of the obsessed conspiracy hound on a mission to
prove his wild-ass theories. This is the perception.

I do not agree with this perception, but I sincerely recognize
it and observe it in others.

The best hope of recent times was Greer's Disclosure Project. By
amassing a huge group of credible witnesses, and generating a
huge amount of anecdotal evidence, one would think that the
result would have been fairly effective. This was not however
the case.

To blame 9/11 for overshadowing the Disclosure message is to
miss a larger and less savory point. For all the anecdotes,
security clearances, wide-eyed accounts, and grainy photos or
redacted documents, there was still no definitive proof of just
what these people experienced. No real smoking gun came out of
all this collaboration. In short, it didn't live up to the hype.

I was listening intently the morning when the late Chuck
Schramek, my local radio news guy at the time (and devout UFO
believer/Hale Bopp Companion victim) reported live (after
convincing his bosses that it was a huge story) from the Natl.
Press Club where Hoagland was giving his Moon artifact press
conference. I remember thinking that this could finally be the
day that we hear the truth. Painfully, Chuck reported the
truth... a few grainy or blurry photographs, a bunch of pseudo-
scientific mumbo-jumbo and in the end, embarrassment that he
made the trip. It didn't live up to the hype. How do you think
his bosses felt after buying into this *newsgathering* trip? Now
ask again why no millionaires are ponying up with big bucks.

Perhaps the best way to attract serious scientific involvement,
and thereby serious funding, is to change the way Ufology is
publicized. Perhaps the Unidentified Flying Object should be
treated as Unidentified, rather than a denizen of some other
world, until we have peer-reviewed data to present in
authoritative science publications.

Perhaps the true science of Ufology should recede into the
background, and intentionally not publicize, so as to attract
only those truly interested in the truth, and not just a shot at
getting a book published.

Selling a book to fund research too often leads to embellishing
the data to make it more salable. This leads to disappointment
amongst the readers, and the veil of perceived illegitimacy
thickens.

Perhaps with the calm and quiet that an absence of hype would
bring, younger scientists might find the mysteries of UFOs to be
worthy of their time and interest... for its own sake as a
mystery to solve.

Perhaps when we reach the point when people do not roll their
eyes at the mention of UFOs, someone with the money will find it
worthy of more reasoned scrutiny.

At present lamentably, in the popular perception anyway, all UFO
researchers are placed in the same mix with the Nancy Lieders,
Billy Meiers, and Jose Escamillas of the world. Stan Friedman is
likely the most *legit* to the popular eye, and that just leads
back to the mad scientist perception. OF COURSE Stan believe
this stuff, is the consensus.

If you had several million dollars and no opinion on the UFO
question, would you build an NIDS? Who would you trust not to
squander the money on far-fetched, un-provable hypotheses? I
doubt many outside the field could answer that question.

If we allow the hype to die down, and the money-seekers flee the
sinking ship, then perhaps we could see the emergence of a
legitimate scientific effort to identify what is now
unidentified.

Perhaps a sea change is in order.

This is an interesting thread in light of Dick Hall's
difficulties. I have almost reverential respect for Mr. Hall,
and hate to think that he would have to sell off his life's work
to eat. On the other hand, the history of science reminds time
and again that those with the unpopular (i.e., un-funded) view
are often cast adrift, even when later proven right... typically
long after their death.

The past 10 years or so has seen many millionaires made, and
presumably some of them would be eager to invest in something a
little off the beaten track. The coin of Paul Allen's entre'
into the X-Prize fray is a good example. A low-profile approach,
much work done in secrecy, carefully released project updates,
and the result was a historic moment for us all, and a lucrative
future is assured.

On the obverse of this coin would be the example of Joe Firmage.
Hoist by his own petard as it were. Over-hyped from the
beginning, his message was obscured by its own fringe aspects,
and its over- funded, under-thought marketing plan.

Money doesn't make good science, and good science doesn't need
money. They can however peaceably co-exist to mutual benefit, if
the goal is to find answers to the questions rather than to try
to find support for pre-conceived answers.

If a younger, energetic, charismatic speaker were to emerge,
building momentum for a new approach to the UFO field, along the
lines of Brad Sparks' ideas perhaps, one day we might see some
answers, or at least more serious researchers getting involved,
and the veil of perceived illegitimacy might part, if not
dissolve completely.

As much as I enjoy Coast to Coast AM, and I rescheduled my
working life to accommodate it, the show represents a part of
the problem rather than the solution in my view.


Best Regards,

Kyle








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                Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? -

From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul>
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:17:36 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 23:59:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? -


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 23:38:47 EST
>Subject: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports?

>Anyone got any papers or books where supposed crashed or
>captured UFO/ET craft were recovered and there is material
>analysis done on said remnants?

>I know there are bits and pieces here and there but am unaware
>of any comprehensive look at them.

Greg,

I have a compilation of debris descriptions by Roswell
eyewitnesses plus miscellaneous testimony about debris analysis
(such as from Wilbert Smith) at:

http://www.roswellproof.com/debris_main.html


David Rudiak








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                 European Spacecraft Prepares To Orbit Moon

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:43:49 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:06:26 -0500
Subject: European Spacecraft Prepares To Orbit Moon


Source: The New Scientist

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=3Dns99996659

11-11-04

European spacecraft prepares to orbit Moon

Europe=92s first lunar spacecraft is set to go into orbit around
the Moon on Monday. SMART-1 has already reached the "gateway" to
the Moon, the region where its gravity starts to dominate that
of the Earth.

"For the first time, Europe has a mission which is now at the
fuzzy boundary between the Earth and the Moon," said Bernard
Foing, chief scientist at the European Space Agency (ESA), at a
briefing in London on Thursday.

On the night of Monday 15 November, SMART-1 will fire its
engines and begin manoeuvres that should place it in orbit
around the Moon.

Once the craft has spiralled down to reach its final close orbit
in January 2005, scientific investigations will begin. One goal
is to survey the Peak of Eternal Light, a mountaintop bathed in
permanent sunlight that keeps the temperature at a tolerable -
20=BAC, making it a favoured site for a manned lunar base.

The bright sunshine could provide astronauts with solar power,
and there might be plenty of useful water in craters nearby.
"The south pole is probably the place where we=92re going to
start," says Manuel Grande of the Rutherford Appleton Laboratory
near Didcot in Oxfordshire, UK, who is lead scientist for the
craft=92s X-ray spectrometer.

SMART-1 was launched in September 2003 and is the first of a
series of low-budget ESA projects called Small Missions for
Advanced Research in Technology, which will test new
technologies for bigger projects.


Ion drive

The spacecraft has a new kind of propulsion system: a highly
efficient ion drive. Solar panels generate electricity, which
heats and ionises xenon fuel. The ions are ejected, propelling
the craft in the opposite direction. The drive is ten times as
efficient as a traditional rocket, and has so far passed its
tests with flying colours.

=46rom January 2005, SMART-1 will study the Moon=92s surface
contours, map the distribution of different minerals, and
hopefully provide new clues to how the lunar surface evolved.

One key area it will study is the South Pole-Aitken basin.
Roughly 2500 kilometres wide and 13 kilometres deep, it is the
largest known impact crater in the solar system.

"It=92s deep enough to punch through the lower crust down into the
mantle," says Grande. "We=92re looking into the Moon=92s interior
and into its past."

The spacecraft=92s X-ray spectrometer will measure the spectra of
X-rays emitted from elements in the Moon's crust when solar X-
rays shine on its surface. It will be the first X-ray instrument
to create a global map of the main constituents of moon rock --
magnesium, silicon, aluminium and calcium.

This could help shed light on the Moon=92s origins. Scientists
believe the Moon probably formed when a Mars-sized body hit the
Earth during the birth of the solar system 4.5 billion years
ago. The collision sent vaporised rock and debris from both
bodies flying into space. Some went into orbit around the Earth
then solidified to form the Moon.








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   Nov > Nov 12

             Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? - Myers

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:05:04 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:08:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? - Myers


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 23:38:47 EST
>Subject: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports?

>Anyone got any papers or books where supposed crashed or
>captured UFO/ET craft were recovered and there is material
>analysis done on said remnants?

>I know there are bits and pieces here and there but am unaware
>of any comprehensive look at them.


Hi Greg,

About the only paper I know out there is from the much hyped
'Art's Parts' alleged Roswell debris:

http://www.ufowatchdog.com/howeufodebris.html

I want to say there was a paper published on some alleged UFO
debris from Aurora, Texas, but am not sure.  Didn't that metal
test in at 99.9999978% pure aluminum or something similar?

Also, NIDS completed a study on Bob White's supposed UFO metal
and published a paper at their site, which is still acitve in
spite of the doors being closed.

http://www.nidsci.org/index2.html


Regards,

Royce J. Myers III
UFOWATCHDOG.COM








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             Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term - Myers

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:11:39 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:11:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term - Myers


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:45:56 -0500
>Subject: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term

<snip>

>There are only a few people that have attempted to make a living
>through their interest in UFOs, and it has proven to be very
>limited.

Yes, it's been limited... for the honest researcher. The
sensationalistic idiots are the only ones making any money.



Regards,

Royce J. Myers III
UFOWATCHDOG.COM








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              Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:28:56 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:13:10 -0500
Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online -


>From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 2:04:15 -1000
>Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online

>>From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 11:23:11 +1100
>>Subject: Re: India's Balloon-Shaped Object Photo Online

<snip>

>>These Orbs are genuine UFOs. They are not balloons and
>>certainly not "spy satellites" or anything mystical. I have been
>>fortunate to have witnessed and video taped this same type of
>>UFO Orb on four different occasions this year and for 50 minutes
>>in 1999.

> <snip>

>>Follow links on my UFO web site for more on these UFO Orbs:

>>http://theozfactor.nucleardays.com

>Barry,

>You have amazing perception so that by looking at that fuzzy
>enhanced image you are sure that it is not a cluster of balloons
>but an orb UFO. Do you also see rods?

>I looked at your website and to me it contains so much bunk
>(just one example: the VRIL society and Nazi UFOs) that it is an
>insult to serious UFO investigation.


Hi Josh:

It looks like nobody wants to take me up on my simple
suggestion: Put down the cameras and pick up a cheap butterfly
net.

Not even a response. I guess that would spoil the fun.


Best

- Larry






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             Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 23:59:58 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:14:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? - Boone


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 08:13:19 -0500
>Subject: Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports?

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 23:38:47 EST
>>Subject: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports?

>>Anyone got any papers or books where supposed crashed or
>>captured UFO/ET craft were recovered and there is material
>>analysis done on said remnants?

>>I know there are bits and pieces here and there but am unaware
>>of any comprehensive look at them.

>I would be interested in _any_ scientific analysis of debris
>recovered from an alleged crash site. Unfortunately, the cases
>that I can recall have no provenance beyond the claims of one
>person, and many have been identified as hoaxes.


I was also at the 50th Anniversary of the Roswell Crash and
there was a big presentation of some debris analysis. What ever
became of that analysis in the long run? Was it properly peer
reviewed?

If I recall there was an issue regarding isotopic ratios that
raised quite a few eyebrows. When I passed that data on to a top
engineer friend of mine he basically said it was an open and
shut case of manufacturing and extraterrestrial origin. Yet he
didn't say ETs did the manufacturing. There's a catch there.

Could be the material was man made but not man made from
Earth materials.

Best,

Greg







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             Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:18:13 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:16:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? - Boone


>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:17:36 -0800
>Subject: Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports?

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 23:38:47 EST
>>Subject: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports?

<snip>

>Greg,

>I have a compilation of debris descriptions by Roswell
>eyewitnesses plus miscellaneous testimony about debris analysis
>(such as from Wilbert Smith) at:

>http://www.roswellproof.com/debris_main.html


Yes David! I found your site last niight and brother is it an
awesome piece of work! Huge kudos to you! I've emailed that URL
to everybody I know and was surprised how many folks I know were
either there at Roswell when it all happened or their parents or
grandparents etc. were there!

I should have known it. I had forgotten. Yes, and something did
come up surprising from one person. They work in advanced
materials and said that from the conflicting descriptions of
some of the debris it looks as though that some of the debris
had 'smart' technology applied to it. He says that some of the
new materials out here actually take on the consistency and
shape of the holder or viewer. It's part of camouflage
technology. The materials are designed so that the user can
manipulate it to conform to flight problems, sea problems
changes in temperature and stress etc.  No big thing to him on
that except that it didn't exist back in '47 so it's his
speculation.

Now something else came up. A famous person's name that I'll
list in a new thread. Stay tuned.


Best,

Greg







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                    IBM's Thomas 'Pop' Watson Sr. & UFOs?

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:48:30 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:18:11 -0500
Subject: IBM's Thomas 'Pop' Watson Sr. & UFOs?


Well, ain't this a surprise.

I grew up near IBM's main manufacturing plant in Dutchess County
New York. Saw many a strange site there too including a giant
boomerang craft that was hovering over the main plant one night.

So I'm looking around the web and came up with ol' Pop Watson's
name connected to all kinds of bad guys and good guys who were
in and around the original Flying Saucer days.

So just asking the List if anyone has done research on Pop
Watson and IBM and the UFO/Intelligence agencie thingie.

Just when you thought it was safe to walk away you step right
into more merde.


Best,

Greg








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                Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term -

From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:26:35 +0000 (GMT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:20:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term -


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:45:56 -0500
>Subject: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term

<snip>

>There are only a few people that have attempted to make a
>living through their interest in UFOs, and it has proven to be
>very limited.


Hi Steve and Listers

Hollywood make a fortune from UFO/ET oriented material so maybe
if Ufology goes the same way, as truth is most times stranger
than fiction, we could make the necessary income.

There is also a vast number of folk who enjoy a Sci-Fi read in
paperback, myself included, and during the 1980's we had the
books akin to 'Mysteries' by Colin Wilson etc which were so
popular that even I was eager for more awaiting the next batch
of publications of its ilk.

So, maybe instead of direct reporting of facts of UFO/ET there
could be a better way of presenting the material maybe using the
above. Clinical facts are okay, but most crave extended
hypothesis also, the more 'out there' the better.

ie; write the details like a Sci-Fi story but have all the facts
correct, as far as possible, then add paragraphs of hypothesis
after it in similar fashion with a clear line between giving a
mix of fact and fiction. Thus probably getting a wider reader
base.

I do read books like this now and find them a more enjoyable
read. Most times not putting the book down until l've read it
all.


Col







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                Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? -

From: Aarom LeClair <saucer.nul>
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 04:46:54 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:22:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? -


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 08:13:19 -0500
>Subject: Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports?

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 23:38:47 EST
>>Subject: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports?

>>Anyone got any papers or books where supposed crashed or
>>captured UFO/ET craft were recovered and there is material
>>analysis done on said remnants?

>>I know there are bits and pieces here and there but am unaware
>>of any comprehensive look at them.

<snip>

Yor best bet is to look into alien implants. So far nothing off
a craft that has been proving to be of ET origin.







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                Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:36:38 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:36:38 -0500
Subject: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB




Source: Alien Abduction And Research

http://www.abduct.com/worley/worley20.htm

02-28-04


Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB
Donald Worley - Alien Abduction Researcher

When young Dave Smith entered the forbidden room behind the
wall, he never suspected he had signed his own death warrant.
Dave, fresh out of high school, landed a job at the AVCO
Manufacturing Company in Richmond, Indiana in May of 1962.

The United States government had leased part of the plant and
the Indiana Ordinance Company was engaged in secret chemical and
explosive tests at the site that had Vietnam War applications.
Dave's employment was in the experimental section. Within this
part, beyond a wall, there was a laboratory-like room that was
off limits even to persons with Dave's security clearance.

Curiosity gnawed at Dave, and being an unafraid adventuresome
sort, he determined that he would breach this extreme security
if the opportunity presented itself. This soon happened and he
was able to slip into the room undetected. There were three
tables in the room and each had something on it with a covering
over it.

In the brief interval before he was rudely interrupted, Dave was
able to lift the cover on each table and be totally shocked by
what he saw. Three men in black suits came charging into the
room. Two grabbed Dave and the other one quickly took a device
from his pocket and pressed it to the lower back of Dave's head.
When Dave regained consciousness, he did not know where he was
or how much time had passed.

Due to the military uniforms the men wore he surmised that he
was in some kind of a military base. This later proved to be
Wright Patterson Air Fore Base at Dayton, Ohio which is some 45
miles southeast of Richmond. Then began a series of ordeals that
Dave would never forget.

Dave was subjected to violent, grueling interrogations that
seemed to never end. Needles were stuck into him and the shots
affected his mind and body. Finally he was allowed to recover
and then helicoptered back to his job at Richmond. Dave was
repeatedly warned that if he ever uttered one word about what he
had seen he and his family would suddenly become missing
persons.

What Dave's unbelieving eyes had beheld was clearly one of
government's greatest secrets. All three beings were similar and
appeared to have been injured with one looking like it had
suffered burns.

All were about three or three and a half feet long, slight
figured, and had no muscle tone. The skin was grayish brown and
when he touched one, its skin felt like rough leather. The
little entities had very large round heads, very big round black
eyes, a slit mouth, tiny, flat noses, tiny ears, and no facial
expression.

Their long arms reached down to their knees. The hands were
three digest and claw-like. Dave especially remembered their
feet which had three stubby webbed toes. Noticeable ridges stuck
out the bottom of the feet. They were dressed in one piece brown
jump suits that zipped up. On one suit he noticed an emblem that
looked something like a small bird.

During the month following Dave's ordeal he would often be taken
off his job and flown back to the AFB for repeat attention.
Fellow employees at the Richmond plant were aware of his
condition and repeatedly told his family that something was
being done to him by the government.

Several times one sister would receive calls to go get him in
Earlham Cemetery which lies at the west edge of Richmond. She
would find him there in a disoriented state. Strange men watched
the family home and even watched the grocery store that Dave
started later on.

In the early 1970s Dave was offered a series of better jobs as a
nuclear warfare specialist at other government facilities, but
he declined and left the Richmond job. Janet Smith, his young
wife, remembers that he had problems with a bleeding nose and
ears. Finally in 1975, he told Janet a few details about his
harrowing experiences, but her efforts to get more out of him
went unrewarded until 1980. He then made some crude drawings of
the beings and talked more about things.

In 1985 he developed a malignant tumor right where the CIA type
had placed the device that rendered him instantly unconscious.
Nothing could be done for Dave. He died in 1986 at the age of
43. His physicians wanted to do an autopsy to see why he had
died at that early age from that type of cancer. Heartbroken
Janet, still keeping the big secret, wanted no more of this
distressing business.

It was not until February 1992 that Dave's son Bob finally got
up the courage to come to my home and relate what had happened
to his father. He had told me many of the details on the phone
in two calls but had failed to appear form my in-dept
interrogation. He came despite the strong objections of his
mother. In memory of his father this embittered son wanted a
record to exist somewhere about what happened.


I, Donald L. Worley, an investigator/researcher with 38 years
experience who has handled many cases, do certify that the above
details are true and accurate as stated. In this account we see
just how ruthless certain elements in our government are in
protecting their most momentous secret. The names of the
principals in these events must remain unknown due to the
embittered families fear of their own government.


[UFO UpDates thanks Stuart Miller for the lead]






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                            The Real Face on Mars

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:54:00 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:54:00 -0500
Subject: The Real Face on Mars




Source: The Real Face on Mars

http://www.therealface.com/crowndecoration.html


09-30-04

The Real Face on Mars
by David Lee

The author is a designer of software and computerized systems.
For more than ten years, he worked at NASA-Langley and the Air
Force Human Resources Laboratory designing aircraft simulation
software. For the past ten years, he has designed machine vision
systems, including custom-designed vision software. He decided
to apply his knowledge of digital filtering and 3D modeling to
the latest images of the so-called "Face on Mars" and has
discovered new evidence that it is artificial.

<snip> [Many pictures & overlays that need to be seen --ebk]

Conclusion: I have shown that there is an elaborate symmetry in
this landscape about a single line. The likelihood that this
symmetry is a natural occurrence is so small, I think it is
likely that this is an artificial formation. At the very least,
I hope I have shown that more and better images should be made
available from the Mars Orbital Camera, so this can be studied
some more.


[UFO UpDates thanks Stuart Miller for the lead]








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                       Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:00:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:00:18 -0500
Subject: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI




Source: The BBC - Science & Nature: Space

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/space/spacechat/livechat/seth_shostak.shtml


Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI


Ben: Do you believe in extra-terrestrials?

Seth Shostak: "Well, Ben, if I didn't, I wouldn't continue to do
this work. It would be very frustrating to think that we're
looking for something that doesn't exist."

Duncan: How do you use radios to listen for aliens?

Seth Shostak: "The scheme that we use is to point very large
antennas in the directions of sun-like stars, and look for
signals that are clearly produced by a transmitter, and not
natural cosmic static."

Sara: What type of signals do you expect aliens to make?

Seth Shostak: "Well, Sara, I expect aliens to make all kinds of
signals, but the kind that we look for are so-called narrow-band
signals. These are at one particular spot on the radio dial.
These are the types of signals that would be most easy to detect
from great distances."

Vicki: Is there any possible chance we could encounter alien
life in our lifetime?

Seth Shostak: "I don't think we're going to encounter it face-
to-proboscis. I don't expect them to come here, and we're not
going there, but we might find a signal from them in the next
several decades."

Martin: Does the SETI dish transmit as well as receive?

Seth Shostak: "The Arecibo antenna does have a powerful
transmitter, but we don't use it. We're just trying to
eavesdrop."

Mike: Do you think any contact will be understandable to us,
will we recognise it?

Seth Shostak: "If they are being altruistic, and trying to
educate us, they may make their message simple for us. But
personally, I don't expect this. I suspect we'll not understand
their message."

Rob Sharp: If we're not alone, why all the sightings and no
contact?

Seth Shostak: "Most of the sightings can be explained as natural
phenomena or aircraft or balloons or other mundane stuff. I
still haven't seen any evidence that any of these sightings
involve alien spacecraft. I think the aliens exist - I just
don't think they're visiting."

Marcos Scriven: There is a screen saver which uses your PC while
you're not using it, to analyse SETI signals. Do you know if
anyone has turned up anything interesting using this method?

Seth Shostak: "There has been a lot of processed data, but it
will be a few years before they will know if SETI.nul has
turned up ET's faint whine."

Simon Zerafa: What are the chances that ET might be a machine
intelligence rather that biological?

Seth Shostak: "Personally, I think it's quite likely that the
bulk of the intelligence in the galaxy is not soft and squishy,
but rather, artificial."

Michael Somers: Do you think places like Stonehenge where
created by aliens?

Seth Shostak: "That would be a disservice to druid engineers!
I'm sure Stonehenge, the pyramids, and the lines in Peru, were
all made by clever humans."

Loz Herbert: If aliens were found, would it not be kept quiet
due to the potential mass hysteria?

Seth Shostak: "No I don't. The majority of folk believe that the
aliens are already here, and I don't see them rioting in the
street about that. Any discovery would be made public
immediately."

Neil Mackie: Has it been confirmed yet that life did exist on
Mars?

Seth Shostak: "Alas, Neil, not yet. There is some very
suggestive evidence, but a lot of controversy. We may not know
for sure for many years."

Steve: Is there any means for sending messages so that they
reach other planets more quickly than they do with radio waves?

Seth Shostak: "As far as we know, nothing can beat radio or
light for speed - Albert Einstein told us that, and so far
there's no reason to disbelieve him."

Kevin Mckay: Would aliens have to be water or carbon based?

Seth Shostak: "Not necessarily, but carbon is exceptional in its
ability to hook up with other atoms and make complex molecules,
and life, as you are undoubtedly aware, is mostly about complex
molecules."

Tania Jones: What would aliens look like?

Seth Shostak: "I haven't the slightest idea!"

Tony Stone: If the aliens are at a state to receive would they
not have been broadcasting themselves?

Seth Shostak: "The problem is, we've only been broadcasting for
half a century. So our signals haven't reached many star systems
yet."

Will: Do you think aliens are listening for us?

Seth Shostak: "That doesn't sound unreasonable to me, to use a
cautionary double negative!"

Vill: Seth, do you think that there is life as we know it?

Seth Shostak: "Yes, in the sense that I think that a lot of
extra-terrestrial life will be based on carbon chemistry the way
ours is, so in that sense, we know it."

Anthony Crolla: How did you get into this field of astronomy?

Seth Shostak: "I was a radio astronomer, and the techniques I
was using to study galaxies are exactly those required to listen
for ET."

Unlixes Neilstropp: Why is it so many scientists believe alien
life would be carbon based?

Seth Shostak: "Again, carbon is good at making complex
chemistry. There is also a lot of carbon around, and in any
liquid environment, you can expect it to start doing interesting
things."

James Carter: If you were listening to our radio/TV channels,
and watching for instance the events of World War 2, would you
contact Earth?

Seth Shostak: "I don't think that the aliens will be put off by
our petty problems any more than Columbus refused to discover
America because the American Indians were occasionally at war
with one another."

Bob Davies: Do we have a plan in the case of a 'Contact'
scenario?

Seth Shostak: "We do, but it's very simple. It merely states
that we should tell all the astronomers, tell the public, and
tell the government."

Michael Vigor: What are the future plans of the SETI project?

Seth Shostak: "The SETI Institute, where I work, is building a
new radio telescope called the Allen Telescope Array, and this
telescope will be 100 times faster than what we're doing today.
We're also starting experiments to look for flashing laser
pulses from other worlds."

Jill Newcombe: Can you give me some info on clubs and
organisations I can join?

Seth Shostak: "There are two possibilities that come to mind.
One is the SETI Institute's Team SETI, and the other is the free
screensaver - SETI.nul Check the SETI Institute's website:
http://www.seti.org for more information."

Jason Timmins: What about the 1976(?) signal?

Seth Shostak: "I think Jason is referring to the so-called 'Wow'
signal, (which by the way was 1977), however, every attempt to
find that signal again has failed, so we can't assume it was
ET."

Phil Elias: How can you be sure that aliens know about radio
waves and are able to detect them?

Seth Shostak: "The aliens will have the same physics we do, and
they'll surely discover this very efficient way of sending
information from one star to another."

Alex Locke: About radio waves - how could aliens hear our radio
signals amidst all the noise from the Sun?

Seth Shostak: "Surprisingly, Alex, the Sun actually makes weaker
radio signals than the BBC. So they could indeed sort out our
transmitters from the Sun's background noise."

Paul Pitchford: Seth, I am very sceptical and struggle to
believe that there is intelligent life forms out there. What
makes you think there is?

Seth Shostak: "If we are alone then that's extraordinarily
remarkable in such a vast universe.Personally, I don't think
we're that special."

A Muppet: Have we found *any* planets within the correct
distances from their suns to support life?

Seth Shostak: "There are a few, but they are giant planets, not
the kind of world ET would like to call 'home'. But we expect
that there are also many small planets that we cannot yet find.
The limitations of the techniques that we use can only find very
large planets."

Stuart Travers: In a "Star Trek" world, all the alien races walk
on two legs or something similar, what do you think the chances
of real ET's being like us are?

Seth Shostak: "Well, when I go to the local zoo, I find that
most of the critters walk on four legs, and most of the critters
in my house walk on six legs. So, it's not clear to me that ET
will only have two."

Chris Carter: Are you ever worried that programs such as SETI
might attract the attention of malevolent aliens?

Seth Shostak: "Well, keep in mind that we don't broadcast - we
only listen. So the aliens won't know that we're even doing
SETI.I think the likelihood of malevolent aliens existing is as
likely as me going into the backyard, rooting out the ants and
exterminating them! I don't think we're that interesting."

Marianne Oates: If you discovered life, Seth, what would be the
first thing you would do?

Seth Shostak: "Probably lose a lot of sleep! But for the next
week we would be busy verifying the signal and collecting as
much data as we could."

Anne Marigold: On the basis of 'nothing unites like a common
enemy' do you think proof of ETI would unite the people of the
world?

Seth Shostak: "It's a nice thought, but I'm somewhat sceptical!
I think there would be a lot of contention about who should have
access to the big radio telescopes in order to get this new
information."

Steve Norton: If a radio signal took fifty years to find a hit,
how long would it take us to travel to the destination?

Seth Shostak: "Radio signals travel at the speed of light, which
is at least ten thousand times faster than our best rockets.In
the future, we might be able to build rockets that could go at
ten percent of the speed of light, so it would take five hundred
years to get there."

ab3456: Will SETI ever stop?

Seth Shostak: "I certainly hope not. Remember, we're looking for
a needle in a haystack, and we've checked out a handful of hay,
so it's very early days to think about stopping."

Affro Em: Would mobile phone signals be heard by aliens?

Seth Shostak: "No. They're entirely too weak - in fact, we often
don't hear them properly here on Earth!"

Nastar: How far has the original Voyager probe reached and are
we still in contact with it?

Seth Shostak: "It's now ten thousand million kilometres from
earth, and we still receive signals from these craft."

Paul Smith1: Do you view "first contact" as an essential part of
this planet's future survival?

Seth Shostak: "I'm not so sure it's essential for our survival,
but I do think it will happen."

Farris Willson: Even if we had a contact how can we confirm it
was from ET and not a Pulsar or other different waves?

Seth Shostak: "The characteristics of the signal would betray it
as being sent by a transmitter and not by some noisy natural
source. For example, pulsars spread their radio energy all over
the dial, which is very inefficient. ET wouldn't do that."

Colin Finch: If contact is established, who agrees what we send
back?

Seth Shostak: "Good question, Colin. At the moment, there is a
proposal to require international agreement on any reply, but
frankly, we've been sending television signals into space for 50
years. So our reply is already out there."

Simon Stephens: Seth, do you believe that the American
government has covered up alien aircraft discoveries?

Seth Shostak: "No, I don't. No matter what you may think of the
American government, they're not that efficient!"

Ayasami Fukuno: Do you think Aliens have any special powers like
teleporting and stuff?

Seth Shostak: "Well, I'm sure they're more advanced than we are
- the ones we will hear. But they're stuck with the same physics
that we are. Teleporting might not be allowed by physics - even
for aliens!"

Matt: What do you think the chances are of a real 'Planet of the
Apes'?

Seth Shostak: "All I know is that our ancestors managed to wipe
out the Neanderthals and the apes are a lot further behind us,
in an evolutionary sense, than the Neanderthals were. So I
personally am not worried. But I am stocking up on bananas!"

Tricia: Why expend even more dollars on detecting intelligent
life in space when the fact of its existence can be of no
material benefit to us?  Is it that scientists such as yourself
are really philosophers at heart?

Seth Shostak: "I'll take that as a compliment! I think it's
mostly curiosity, in the same sense that Galileo did his work on
the basis of curiosity. We always want to know what's over the
next hill."

James2: Can you give a quick synopsis of what you have
discovered so far?

Seth Shostak: "Yes, we can - we have yet to find ET's signal,
period! But that may change tomorrow. In terms of the area that
we have covered, essentially, all of the sky has been looked at
with low sensitivity, but only 500 star systems have been
carefully scrutinised."

Vicky Webb: Seth, if a normal person would be scanning through
the radio channels could we hear signals from ETs?

Seth Shostak: "Unfortunately, Vicky, unless they've bought the
local AM radio station, they won't. You need a much larger
antenna than you're likely to have at home."

Paul Calderbank: If it takes 15 billion years to make a sentient
life form able to view the universe (i.e. us), how do you expect
any one else to be ahead of the game?

Seth Shostak: "Keep in mind that the earth has only been here
for four and a half billion years, so there are plenty of older
star systems, and consequently, I suspect,plenty of more
advanced societies."

BBC Host: That is all we have time for. Here is Bob with a final
word....

Seth Shostak: "I appreciate everyone's interest, and the very
good questions, and I hope you'll stay tuned, because we will!"


[UFO UpDates thanks Stuart Miller for the lead]





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   Nov > Nov 12

                  Friedman-Shostak Debate Last Days OnLine

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 06:48:18 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:02:48 -0500
Subject: Friedman-Shostak Debate Last Days OnLine


List,

For those of you who missed the debate on Coast to Coast AM
between Stanton Friedman and Seth Shostak, this is your last
chance to listen to, or download, the event from my website.

I'm going to leave the page up until Sunday morning (11/14/04)
so visit it while you can.

http://terrygroff.com/great_debate.html


Thanks

Terry Groff

Webmaster
Dallas-Fort Worth MUFON
http://mufondfw.com

Webmaster
UFO TOOLS
http://terrygroff.com/ufotools/

Ringmaster
The UFO/UAP Research Webring
http://x.webring.com/hub?ring=ufologicalresear

"The flash of light you saw in the sky was not a UFO. Swamp gas
from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and
refracted the light from Venus" --Agent 'K'








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                Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? -

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:47:47 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:08:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? -


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 23:59:58 EST
>Subject: Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports?

>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 08:13:19 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports?

<snip>

>I was also at the 50th Anniversary of the Roswell Crash and
>there was a big presentation of some debris analysis. Whatever
>became of that analysis in the long run? Was it properly peer
>reviewed?

>If I recall there was an issue regarding isotopic ratios that
>raised quite a few eyebrows. When I passed that data on to a top
>engineer friend of mine he basically said it was an open and
>shut case of manufacturing and extraterrestrial origin. Yet he
>didn't say ETs did the manufacturing. There's a catch there.

>Could be the material was man made but not man made from


Hi Greg,

Take a look at http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/debry.html

This is one write up of the event, which I attended as well, and
it turned out to be more circus than revelation. If you were
there, you will recall that the much hyped announcement was done
quickly, with little real information given, and the principals
were whisked out the back door to a car which took them to the
airport to leave the area. No questions were asked of the
researchers involved in the analsysis, and it turned out that
the work had been done by a research assistant who may not have
actually had permission to use the equipment. In the end, it
didn't really live up to the press announcements that had been
put out by Paul Davids, who produced the movie Roswell. But
don't get me wrong, I believe that Davids, and the others
involved, were entirely sincere in their efforts.

I also saw mention of "Art's Parts" in another response in this
thread, and Linda Howe has been discussing analysis of that
material in her presentations in the past few years. She was
also at the Roswell 50th, and I believe that she was concerned
about the announcement being made without proper scientific
foundation.

The bottom line is that I've heard of no further analysis of the
material, with the original analysis now called into question.
There are a number of write-ups related to this event, which
can be found on the Internet.


Steve







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                    UFO Centre Touches Down In Maidstone

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:13:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:13:33 -0500
Subject: UFO Centre Touches Down In Maidstone



Source: The Lloydminster Meridian Booster, Lloydminster, Alberta

http://www.meridianbooster.com/story.php?id=125695

11-07-04


UFO Centre Touches Down In Maidstone

A UFO research centre has landed in Maidstone and the sighting
reports are already beaming in.

Leo Pare
Lloydminster Meridian Booster

A UFO research centre has landed in Maidstone and the sighting
reports are already beaming in.

Until recently, Saskatchewan was the only province without a a
centre for people to report sightings of unidentified flying
objects, but Barb Campbell of Maidstone was determined to change
all that when she opened the Northwest Saskatchewan UFO Research
Centre.

"Everybody (spotting UFOs) has been having to make their reports
to B.C. or Alberta, or to the Manitoba group," said Campbell.
"So I figured why not set up a centre here in the province where
we can take all the reports and document them?"

The NWSURC office runs out of Campbell's home and is a non-
profit operation. As an independent researcher and investigator,
Campbell collects sighting reports in Saskatchewan and compiles
those reports onto a website. (http://ca.geocities.com/nwsurc).
Campbell said she has already had significant interest from
communities across the province and hopes to develop a larger
group of researchers and investigators in the near future.

Despite society's general skepticism regarding UFOs, she
strongly believes in their existence and says she has even had a
few sightings of her own.

"It's a big unknown and I don't expect any answers," she said.
"When I lived in the Bulkley Valley I saw what you would call an
unusual sighting, not your typical UFO shape. It was just a very
unusual spacecraft of some sort which was directly over my head
above the treeline."

Campbell was raised on a farm near Smithers, B.C., where she
experienced several sightings. She says UFO sightings are not as
uncommon as most people think, but witnesses are often hesitant
to come forward.

"We're just not hearing everyone's experiences. There are those
who are afraid to speak up for fear of being shunned by others
in their own community," she said. "Most, if not all, UFO
researchers respect anonymity. Names and other personal
information are withheld from the public.

"The one comfort witnesses have to know is that they are not
alone in having seen a UFO. There are witnesses all over the
world."

After a sighting is reported Campbell has a list of questions
she goes through with the witness or witnesses. She gathers
information on the circumstance of each sighting such as time,
duration, location, direction, weather conditions and a detailed
description of the object.

Campbell's research and investigations will collaborate with
other UFO investigators across the country and around the world.
She will also work with members of the Canadian Crop Circles
Research Network and Franz Berlin, a well-known cattle
mutilation investigator from St. Paul.

Since Campbell began the operation on Oct. 21, she has received
reports of two sightings.

On Oct. 30 Beata Van Berkom of Saskatoon, said she and her son
witnessed a �yellow ball in the sky.'

"We watched it cross the sky rather quickly then it stopped,"
said Van Berkom. "It seemed to stay in one place for a few
minutes then it went up vertically. I saw it pass through wispy
clouds.

"It seemed to change colour to orange and change shape to a
cylindrical shape and back to spherical a few times. Then we
lost sight of it."

On Nov. 1 an anonymous person claimed to have witnessed an
unusual sighting along Highway 26 near Maymont.

"A brilliant low light in the sky seemed not to be moving," said
the 38-year-old witness. "My father got the camera out and ready
to take a picture when it disappeared, instantly, like they shut
off the lights."

There have been four UFO sightings in the Maidstone area since
1963 in which witnesses reported seeing cylindrical, spherical,
rainbow and cigar shaped objects.


[UFO UpDates thanks Stuart Miller for the lead]







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             Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:54:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:15:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term - Kaeser


>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:11:39 -0800
>Subject: Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term

>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:45:56 -0500
>>Subject: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term

><snip>

>>There are only a few people that have attempted to make a living
>>through their interest in UFOs, and it has proven to be very
>>limited.

>Yes, it's been limited... for the honest researcher. The
>sensationalistic idiots are the only ones making any money.

Yes. And at some point you have to realize that the masses
really define what the subject is, which means it seems to be
drifting further and further from that of a pursuit of knowledge
from a traditional scientific perspective. As that occurs, how
do we ever expect to attract the interest of traditional
science, or should the genre just continue to exist as a belief
structure (which for many it has become).


Steve







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             Re: Where Were The Pros During Mexico City Flap? -

From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:11:38 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:24:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Where Were The Pros During Mexico City Flap? -


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 09:40:07 EST
>Subject: Re: Where Were The Pros During Mexico City Flap?

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 13:03:22 -0500
>>Subject: Where Were The Pros During Mexico City Flap?

>>>From: Craig Parsons <filmseries.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 23:32:21 EST
>>>Subject: Where Were The Pros During Mexico City Flap?

>><snip>

>>>With that in mind: While recently watching (again) a show
>>>featuring the famous Mexican sightings (the early 90's ones), it
>>>suddenly occured to me what I _wasn't_ seeing. Namely,
>>>professionally shot footage.

><snip>

>>You have hit on a serious problem noted long ago: the official
>>"non-interest" of the major media.

><snip>

>>Perhaps the major media feel that if one of their reporters
>>becomes a witness this could spoil their "objectivity".
>
>Actually Doc, It's not that the mainstream isn't interested,
>they're not going to stick their necks out after seeing what
>happens to those reporters who do.
>
>Seems to me the more military/intelligence a guy is the more he
>is allowed to get away with something. More on that story later.
>
>Some of us news people are warned to shut up or shown what might
>happen if we go against the grain. Problem with that is the
>folks doing the threatening didn't take into account whom they
>were threatening and what we really might be.
>
>Sorta the mistake the weasle made when he cussed out the
>rattler's tail for waking him up with it's noise and didn't see
>the snake attached to it.


Greg, et al,

We've been dealing with media, directly, for over 15 years (and
do consulting for various magazines and newspapers).

TV news reporters and News Directors love UFO stories, but for
television they require something more than an anecdotal
account. The medium is visual afterall.

Newspapers will take a skeptical view or a reportorial stance
depending upon the papers' biases about events.

UFOs excite viewers and readers. Media people know this and will
provide UFO accounts that are substantive. The video of a
strange "thing" in the skies over Fort Wayne, Indiana (seen
online at:

http//www.wildesociety.org

got coverage for several days locally and at CNN and other
national outlets.

So I don't think the canard that media is uninterested or
debunk-oriented holds true exactly.


Rich Reynolds
Fort Wayne MediaWatch








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                      Re: The Real Face on Mars - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:23:23 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:33:26 -0500
Subject: Re: The Real Face on Mars - King


>Source: The Real Face on Mars

>http://www.therealface.com/crowndecoration.html

>09-30-04

>The Real Face on Mars
>by David Lee

>The author is a designer of software and computerized systems.
>For more than ten years, he worked at NASA-Langley and the Air
>Force Human Resources Laboratory designing aircraft simulation
>software. For the past ten years, he has designed machine vision
>systems, including custom-designed vision software. He decided
>to apply his knowledge of digital filtering and 3D modeling to
>the latest images of the so-called "Face on Mars" and has
>discovered new evidence that it is artificial.

><snip>[Many pictures & overlays that need to be seen --ebk]

>Conclusion: I have shown that there is an elaborate symmetry in
>this landscape about a single line. The likelihood that this
>symmetry is a natural occurrence is so small, I think it is
>likely that this is an artificial formation. At the very least,
>I hope I have shown that more and better images should be made
>available from the Mars Orbital Camera, so this can be studied
>some more.

>[UFO UpDates thanks Stuart Miller for the lead]

List,

Did anyone else notice that this guy's "crown decoration" is
located at the presumed "chin" of the face, rather than the
head? Well, maybe it used to be on his head, but got blown down
to the chin by whatever large explosion caused the collapse of
one side of the face. My eyes are beginning that familiar
Cydonian roll.....

Besides not understanding the orientation of the formation, the
arbitrary use of lighting changes, topographical guesswork, and
reliance on extreme magnification of low-resolution images leads
me to conclude that his results are in large part what he set
out to find, and little more.

That may make for good entertainment, but it isn't science.

Does anybody of note really still believe that the face is a
construct of intelligence rather than of weather and time?

The whole Hoagland bilateral symmetry and feline aspect left me
a little giggly.


Kyle








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   Nov > Nov 13

             Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB -

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:30:22 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:36:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB -


>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers -
>Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:36:38 -0500
>Subject: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB


>Source: Alien Abduction And Research

>http://www.abduct.com/worley/worley20.htm

>02-28-04

What a crock of crap this entire story represents. I ought to
know and speak from experience. There were no alien bodies ever
taken to WPAFB. I devoted more time and money to researching
Project SIGN than anyone on the planet.

Truly informed researchers and specialists in the field of
Ufology know damn well that if any alien bodies have been
recovered in the early years, they would have been immediately
shipped off to the Lovelace Clinic in Albuquerque, NM. Not only
would security have been formidable, but it would have been the
only place on earth where an autopsy could be performed by
former members of the medical side of the AFSAB and that would
have been Col. William Lovelace. Even to this day his private
papers cannot be located, even by his own family.

Whoever wrote and tried to push this piece of garbage isn't a
qualified researcher in the field of Ufology. His promises are
pure bunk.


Wendy Connors
www.fadeddiscs.com







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                      Re: The Real Face on Mars - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:44:34 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:39:04 -0500
Subject: Re: The Real Face on Mars - King


>Source: The Real Face on Mars

>http://www.therealface.com/crowndecoration.html

>09-30-04

>The Real Face on Mars
>by David Lee

>The author is a designer of software and computerized systems.
>For more than ten years, he worked at NASA-Langley and the Air
>Force Human Resources Laboratory designing aircraft simulation
>software. For the past ten years, he has designed machine vision
>systems, including custom-designed vision software. He decided
>to apply his knowledge of digital filtering and 3D modeling to
>the latest images of the so-called "Face on Mars" and has
>discovered new evidence that it is artificial.

><snip>[Many pictures & overlays that need to be seen --ebk]

>Conclusion: I have shown that there is an elaborate symmetry in
>this landscape about a single line. The likelihood that this
>symmetry is a natural occurrence is so small, I think it is
>likely that this is an artificial formation. At the very least,
>I hope I have shown that more and better images should be made
>available from the Mars Orbital Camera, so this can be studied
>some more.

>[UFO UpDates thanks Stuart Miller for the lead]


List,

Ok... so I hadn't visited the guy's other pages. He thinks the
face is oriented upside down from the original. My bad.

Does that detail change anyone's mind?

Still just one man's Rohrschach analysis to me.


Kyle







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             Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? - Smith

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:48:52 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:39:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? - Smith


>From: Larry Cekander <larryroyc.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 05:07:12 -0800 (PST)
>Subject: Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports?

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 23:38:47 EST
>>Subject: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports?

>For information booking Bob White or the Mobile Museum Bus for
>your UFO event please contact us at one of these numbers.

Step right up folks! Come one, come all!  See the alien artifacts!


Sad, very sad.








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             Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? - Myers

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:09:56 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:44:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? - Myers


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:47:47 -0500
>Subject: Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports?

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 23:59:58 EST
>>Subject: Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports?

<snip>

>I also saw mention of "Art's Parts" in another response in this
>thread, and Linda Howe has been discussing analysis of that
>material in her presentations in the past few years. She was
>also at the Roswell 50th, and I believe that she was concerned
>about the announcement being made without proper scientific
>foundation.

>The bottom line is that I've heard of no further analysis of the
>material, with the original analysis now called into question.
>There are a number of write-ups related to this event, which
>can be found on the Internet.

Back in 2001, media promoter Chris Wyatt tried to breathe life
back into the Roswell chunk and was scheduled to hold a media
conference introducing the supposed piece of UFO crash debris.
He also had planned to do an InterNet UFO conference - only
$5.95, or something along those lines.

At first, it was made out to be some new discovery and Wyatt
gave me an 'exclusive' story on it. Things were fine and dandy
until it was revealed it was the same piece of metal from the
Roswell 50th that was introduced by Paul Davids and Derrel
Sims...


Regards,

Royce J. Myers III
UFOWATCHDOG.COM








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              Re: European Spacecraft Prepares To Orbit Moon -

From: Carol Buckallew <clbuckallew.nul-tel.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:57:03 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:46:51 -0500
Subject: Re: European Spacecraft Prepares To Orbit Moon -


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:43:49 -0800
>Subject: European Spacecraft Prepares To Orbit Moon

>Source: The New Scientist

>http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996659

>11-11-04

>European spacecraft prepares to orbit Moon

<snip>

This ought to be interesting since the European Space Agency
doesn't seem as stringent with information as NASA does.

For a lot of years people have seen steam or smoke coming from
the surface of the moon, along with a number of other strange
sightings, so just maybe, we will get a little info about that,
then again maybe not, we will see.

It sounds like this probe will be going pretty close to the
surface and they are looking for a place easier to colonize,
sounds good to me.

Take care.

Carol








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               Scientist's Shocked At Mars' Methane Emissions

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 13:36:43 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:49:13 -0500
Subject: Scientist's Shocked At Mars' Methane Emissions


Source: The Dallas Morning News

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20041112/news_1n12mars.html

11-12-04

Mars Methane Gas Could Be Sign Of Life
By Alexandra Witze
The Dallas Morning News

LOUISVILLE, Ky. -- Methane gas detected on Mars could be a sign
of extraterrestrial life, scientists announced yesterday.

But don't get ready for E.T. just yet. There are many possible
explanations for the methane, and tiny Martian critters are just
one.

Still, the detection of methane had scientists buzzing in
Louisville at a meeting of the American Astronomical Society's
Division of Planetary Sciences.

"I stand before you and tell you, quite honestly, I'm shocked by
these results," said Michael Mumma, an astrobiologist at NASA's
Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md.

Mumma and colleagues discovered unusually high levels of methane
at two places in Mars' atmosphere: above the Hellas Basin, a
giant impact scar in Mars' southern hemisphere, and Valles
Marineris, the great canyon system near the Martian equator.

Methane is a gas that, on Earth, is produced naturally by plants
and animals. On Mars, methane is much rarer. It isn't produced
in the atmosphere and would likely be destroyed there by
chemical reactions within a few hundred years.

So finding methane in the atmosphere suggests that something on
Mars' surface is producing it, Mumma said. The question is
whether that something is alive.

Last month, researchers from the European Space Agency announced
that the Mars Express spacecraft found three regions of Mars
with relatively high levels of atmospheric methane. Possible
sources include bacteria, hot springs and comets, the scientists
reported in the online edition of the journal Science.

Mumma's methane-rich regions aren't the same as those noted by
the Europeans, but some of the European measurements were taken
after a dust storm moved through Mars' atmosphere and possibly
affected the observations, he said.

A notorious 1996 announcement that a meteorite contained
fossilized Martian bacteria is now generally dismissed. The
methane discovery may reopen many debates.







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                     Re: The Real Face on Mars - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul>
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 13:22:42 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:20:49 -0500
Subject: Re: The Real Face on Mars - Tonnies


>Source: The Real Face on Mars

>http://www.therealface.com/crowndecoration.html

>09-30-04

>The Real Face on Mars
>by David Lee

<snip>

>Conclusion: I have shown that there is an elaborate symmetry in
>this landscape about a single line. The likelihood that this
>symmetry is a natural occurrence is so small, I think it is
>likely that this is an artificial formation. At the very least,
>I hope I have shown that more and better images should be made
>available from the Mars Orbital Camera, so this can be studied
>some more.

I agree that the Face should deserves to be seriously studied,
but I find this site's particular argument incredibly weak.

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot.nul)

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com

New book: "After the Martian Apocalypse"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/074348293X








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                 Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:42:32 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:23:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - White


>Source: The BBC - Science & Nature: Space

>http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/space/spacechat/livechat/seth_shostak.shtml

>Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI

<snip>

>Seth Shostak: "As far as we know, nothing can beat radio or
>light for speed - Albert Einstein told us that, and so far
>there's no reason to disbelieve him."

That statement alone is sufficient to discredit Seth Shostak.

I'm sure he knows about Alain Aspect's faster than light
interactions between photons travelling in opposite directions.


Eleanor White








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             Re: Where Were The Pros During Mexico City Flap? -

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 19:05:54 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:59:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Where Were The Pros During Mexico City Flap? -


>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:11:38 -0500
>Subject: Re: Where Were The Pros During Mexico City Flap?

>>><snip>

>Greg, et al,

>We've been dealing with media, directly, for over 15 years (and
>do consulting for various magazines and newspapers).

>TV news reporters and News Directors love UFO stories, but for
>television they require something more than an anecdotal
>account. The medium is visual afterall.

>Newspapers will take a skeptical view or a reportorial stance
>depending upon the papers' biases about events.

>UFOs excite viewers and readers. Media people know this and will
>provide UFO accounts that are substantive. The video of a
>strange "thing" in the skies over Fort Wayne, Indiana (seen
>online at:

>http//www.wildesociety.org

>got coverage for several days locally and at CNN and other
>national outlets.

>So I don't think the canard that media is uninterested or
>debunk-oriented holds true exactly.


Hi Rich and others,

I think Bruce makes a point in that the media does seem to treat
UFO stories with a non-commital if not bemused attitude. In my
town, the home of NASA's Manned Spaceflight Center and Mission
Control, UFO stories of the 'lights in the sky' or 'fireball'
variety are often reported as human interest pieces rather than
science stories. Compare the coverage of a solar eclipse with
that of a UFO story, and you'll get a sense of the point to
which Bruce was alluding.

The UFO story often ends with a group chat amongst the news
team, typically ending with something like, "Well, if they're
invading I sure hope they wait until after the game... <group
giggle>... now here's Bob with sports."

I don't think the media necessarily has an agenda here, but they
sure don't seem to want to be on the hook for supporting a
pro-UFO position yet they cover the stories because as you
mentioned, UFO stories are popular i.e., get good ratings.

The fact that they cover these stories is less important than
how they cover them.

Just as Coast to Coast seems willing to air any theorist or
conspiracist no matter how outlandish, and thereby diluting the
value of real UFO issues in the mixture of hyperbole and
irrationality often on display, the news media lend the same
reportage to UFOs as they do to the 'stupid robber' story or the
'dog with 2 legs' story, thereby diluting its value as a
potential scientific or military or astronomical event.

I'm not sure that the media should report things differently,
but I think Bruce's point was valid in terms of the objectivity
issue.


Best Regards,

Kyle








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                   Re: The Real Face on Mars - Scheldroup

From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 19:29:29 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 13:06:19 -0500
Subject: Re: The Real Face on Mars - Scheldroup


From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers - :>
Date: Friday, November 12, 2004 6:54 AM
Subject: UFO UpDate: The Real Face on Mars

>Source: The Real Face on Mars

>http://www.therealface.com/crowndecoration.html

>09-30-04

>The Real Face on Mars
>by David Lee


I did notice one mark beyond some apparent symmetry of what
could be a bird, but the author has not emphasized one
distinguishing mark adjacent to the bottom of the big horn on
the lefthand side of bigbirds head.

If you look at the straight line at the bottom of the big horn,
you can see what clearly resembles an inverted 'U'. Why did
the author not emphasise that? Maybe it just didn't fit
into the picture.

Egyption numerology says that it is a symbol to represent a
written numeral of 10 or base 10, see the second link, below.

http://www.therealface.com/images/headbadge/winged_creature_anim2.gif

http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/HistTopics/Egyptian_numerals.html


John







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                        More UFO Book Titles For Sale

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:38:14 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 13:13:15 -0500
Subject: More UFO Book Titles For Sale


HARDCOVER UFO BOOKS
(* One paperback)

These are relatively rare or unusual UFO books, in good to very
good condition, from the collection of Dr. John Carlson. One
copy each, so be sure to reserve by e-mail before ordering. Dust
jackets only if indicated. Shipped by Media Mail in U.S., $1.25
per book.

Richard Hall
PayPal to dh12.nul

Check or money order to:
Richard Hall
4418 39th Street
Brentwood, MD 20722-1021

(*) Mort Young, UFO: Top Secret (New York: Essandess Special
Editions, 1967). Trade paperback. $14.00

Desmond Leslie & George Adamski, Flying Saucers Have Landed.
(New York: British Book Centre, 1967. Nice dj. $15.00

Long John Nebel, Wayout World. New Jersey: Prentice-Hall, 1961.
Very good condition with a good dj. $18.00

Waveney Girvan, Flying Saucers and Common Sense. (New York:
Citadel Press, 1956). Nice dj. $18.00

Johannes von Buttlar, The UFO Phenomenon. (London: Sidgwick &
Jackson, 1979). Translated from the German by Nicholas Fry. Good
dj. $20.00

Gerald Heard, Is Another World Watching? (New York: Harper &
Brothers, 1951). First American edition. (Published in England
as The Riddle of the Flying Saucers.) $15.00








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                         Re: Kevin Randle? - LeClair

From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 02:40:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 13:15:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Kevin Randle? - LeClair


>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:11:46 EST
>Subject: Re: Kevin Randle?

>For those interested, Jesse Marcel was recalled to active duty
>and now finds himself in Iraq. This is a stealth draft that has
>gotten little media attention. He is stationed inside the Sunni
>Triangle but not very close to some of the cities that you've
>seen on the news. For the Marcels, we see the father in the
>Pacific during World War II, Jesse Jr., around Vietnam and now
>in Iraq.

>Thanks for the concern about me.


Is there an age limit on being active? Not you Kevin, but I mean
Jesse? I had no idea that they would call someone his age.

This was also news to vets I've talked with. This rare?







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                               Ithaca NY UFOs

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 04:35:15 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 13:21:27 -0500
Subject: Ithaca NY UFOs


Hello all:

I'm forwarding the message below in case anyone is interested. A
fellow "G-man" in New York state wrote in via my website, and
I'm simply passing this on FWIW, so I can attend to other
matters.

I will connect parties on-lIst or off, as you prefer. Be warned,
the fellow has an AOL email address. All I did by way of editing
was to limit line lengths, per List rules.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch

-----

Subject: NY UFO's
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:27:44 EST
From: Gmanxxx.nul
To: webmaster.nul


Mr. Hatch,

My name is Geoffrey "G*MAN" Howe. I have a mountain of evidence
(36 newsclippings alone) about a "flap" that happened in the
Ithaca, NY region of NY State in and around (starting?
continuing?) 1966-present.

Air Force Project Blue Book investigated this "flap", but
curiously when I received my Top Secret clearance from the USAF
in 1974, I could find no reference to this.

Furthermore, I was extensively questioned by the NSA about my
belief's regarding UFO's after reading Blue Book, and some
amazing things happened on my base, Shepherd AFB, Whititaha
Falls, TX.

This is the base with some of the highest level (no pun
intended)! of UFO sightings by both military and civilians
in the USAF, next to White Sands.

I have been seen by; Peter Robbins, Budd Hopkins, and Richard
Dolan re; my case. Interested? I could use a pro's help.

I have a huge amount of interviews, clippings, etc., to validate
my investigation.


Sincerely,

Geoffrey "G*MAN" Howe









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                          UFO Top Secrets Revealed?

From: Roy Hale <vinyl.lover10.nul>
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:39:27 -0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 13:23:28 -0500
Subject: UFO Top Secrets Revealed?


Hi All,

In July of this year, I received the below email, concerning a
new program on UFOs and Top Secrets?

This was from an ITV Bristol (UK) based production company.

Was anyone else in the UK approached for such a programme? As I
tried to contact this chap back,

And after 3 mails I gave up. Just a curious mind.

-----

Roy,

I am a researcher working at ITV West in Bristol. We are just
starting our second series of 'Top Secrets Revealed' which is
broadcast in the region. For this series we would like to do a
programme looking at the history of UFO's in the West. As I am
just starting the research for this I am in need of as much help
as I can get. The reason I have contacted you is because while
on the net I stumbled across your article 'Is this just
happening in Wiltshire'. this is exactly the sort of thing we
are looking for.

We are interested in stories of sightings as well as any stories
which can hint at any sort of Government or official cover up of
the activities of the Government in relation to the tracking and
monitoring of UFO's. I would be very interested in speaking with
you if you can spare the time.


Yours sincerely

Dale Owens








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             Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? - Allan

From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 14:34:03 -0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 13:25:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? - Allan


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:18:13 EST
>Subject: Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports?

>>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:17:36 -0800
>>Subject: Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports?

>>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 23:38:47 EST
>>>Subject: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports?

><snip>

>>Greg,

>>I have a compilation of debris descriptions by Roswell
>>eyewitnesses plus miscellaneous testimony about debris analysis
>>(such as from Wilbert Smith) at:

>>http://www.roswellproof.com/debris_main.html

>Yes David! I found your site last niight and brother is it an
>awesome piece of work! Huge kudos to you! I've emailed that URL
>to everybody I know and was surprised how many folks I know were
>either there at Roswell when it all happened or their parents or
>grandparents etc. were there!

>I should have known it. I had forgotten. Yes, and something did
>come up surprising from one person. They work in advanced
>materials and said that from the conflicting descriptions of
>some of the debris it looks as though that some of the debris
>had 'smart' technology applied to it. He says that some of the
>new materials out here actually take on the consistency and
>shape of the holder or viewer. It's part of camouflage
>technology. The materials are designed so that the user can
>manipulate it to conform to flight problems, sea problems
>changes in temperature and stress etc. No big thing to him on
>that except that it didn't exist back in '47 so it's his
>speculation.

>Now something else came up. A famous person's name that I'll
>list in a new thread. Stay tuned.


If the Roswell debris was thought to be of any value to science
presumably it would have been scientifically analysed in July
1947. Was it? Some prestigious institution would have been
involved. I await its report (if such exists) with great
interest.

Other possible (but very improbable) cases of UFO debris:

1. Maury Island (also summer 1947). The debris, according to Ray
Palmer, was analysed by the Univ of Chicago. But nothing unusual
was found. The case was officially written off as a hoax. Where
is this debris now? See Arnold & Palmer: "The Coming of the
Saucers"

2. The Ubatuba fragments (1957) , mentioned many times in the
literature and found to be '100 per cent pure magnesium'
Unfortunately there were no first-hand witnesses, and none have
ever been traced. Another likely hoax. The Condon Committee
virtually killed the case from a scientific viewpoint. Again,
what became of this magnesium?

3. Wilbert Smith's two cases of 'hardware' do not bear
examination. One was 3000 lb of "unidentified metal" his team
located near the St.Lawrence River. The other was fragments he
was allowed to handle; these were from a UFO supposedly shot
down by the US Navy near Washington. He then had to return them
to "a highly classified group", so he claims. The Condon Report
indicates that neither case has any validity as a UFO.

Has any purported UFO debris or wreckage stood the test of
science, and is it on public view?


CDA








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             Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB -

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:25:07 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 13:26:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB -


>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:30:22 -0700
>Subject: Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB

<snip>

>>Source: Alien Abduction And Research

>>http://www.abduct.com/worley/worley20.htm

<snip>

>Whoever wrote and tried to push this piece of garbage isn't a
>qualified researcher in the field of Ufology. His promises are
>pure bunk.


Hi Wendy,

His site includes a newspaper clipping stating that he is a
leading authority. I wonder where they got that from... Worley
himself?

The site as a whole is a grab bag for several absurd theories
and much of his writing seems to misunderstand even some of the
literature to which he refers.

If this guy qualifies as a leading authority, is it any wonder
that the media gives the subject a rather backhanded notoriety?

His research appears to consist chiefly of visiting fringe
pseudo-science websites and regurgitating what he picked up
without even fully reading or comprehending what he has read.

And how many other fringe elements will now quote Worley as an
authority to bolster their own outlandish claims?

Ridiculous, and detrimental to every serious researcher.


Best,

Kyle








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             Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB -

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 07:53:06 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 13:29:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB -


>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:30:22 -0700
>Subject: Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB

<snip>

>>Source: Alien Abduction And Research

>>http://www.abduct.com/worley/worley20.htm

<snip>

>What a crock of crap this entire story represents.

<snip>

Hello Wendy (and Royce and James and others)

There has been an amazing barrage of drivel on this List the
last few days or weeks; rods, orbs, flying saucer parts... I
forget what else. Cydonia?

I've gotten in the habit of hitting the delete key on sight of
certain names and topics. Somebody asked why the usual pundits
didn't chime in. It is my fear that the sheer volume of BS will
drive them away! That would be a terrible loss.

I sense a genuine mystery to UFOs. Our 5-watt enthusiasts can't
solve it, and may well do the exact opposite by driving away the
talent really needed.

As for rods and orbs, I still await an answer why they don't use
a butterfly net. Cydonia? Some people want to devote our space
program to that. If Cydonia were crawling with probes, and
having found nothing, they would be asking for bulldozers to dig
up ancient Martian sewers.

Meanwhile, Greg pointed out an article from the Dallas Morning
News: Excess methane on Mars! That is way more interesting. It
at least suggests the possibility of Martian microbes. Simple
bacteria maybe.... But! _If_ they can be proved to exist, it
would be the first extraterrestrial life ever discovered!

So. Go ahead weenies, catch rods and orbs on videos when
specimens should go into a net and onto the microscope slide.
Drag out Cydonia, Aztec, space alien bodies on ice and the rest
of it until you drive away the last sensible people willing to
look at UFO matters objectively. Keep it up and you may have the
whole tent to yourselves.





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   Nov > Nov 13

                Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? -

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 17:19:33 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 13:36:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? -


>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:09:56 -0800
>Subject: Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports?

>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:47:47 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports?

<snip>

>Back in 2001, media promoter Chris Wyatt tried to breathe life
>back into the Roswell chunk and was scheduled to hold a media
>conference introducing the supposed piece of UFO crash debris.
>He also had planned to do an InterNet UFO conference - only
>$5.95, or something along those lines.

>At first, it was made out to be some new discovery and Wyatt
>gave me an 'exclusive' story on it. Things were fine and dandy
>until it was revealed it was the same piece of metal from the
>Roswell 50th that was introduced by Paul Davids and Derrel
>Sims...


So what?

Do you mean that is was a piece of crap?

What do you know about it, about the analysis?

What happened to the scientist, Dr VernonClark, who performed
the analysis?

What happened to Chris Wyatt, his conference and his website
projectUfocommunity.com?






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              Re: European Spacecraft Prepares To Orbit Moon -

From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul>
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 17:35:21 -0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 13:37:50 -0500
Subject: Re: European Spacecraft Prepares To Orbit Moon -


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:43:49 -0800
>Subject: European Spacecraft Prepares To Orbit Moon

>Once the craft has spiralled down to reach its final close orbit
>in January 2005, scientific investigations will begin. One goal
>is to survey the Peak of Eternal Light, a mountaintop bathed in
>permanent sunlight that keeps the temperature at a tolerable -





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                Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Reynolds

From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:49:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 13:39:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Reynolds


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:42:32 -0500
>Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI

>>Source: The BBC - Science & Nature: Space

>http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/space/spacechat/livechat/seth_shostak.shtml

>>Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI

><snip>

>>Seth Shostak: "As far as we know, nothing can beat radio or
>>light for speed - Albert Einstein told us that, and so far
>>there's no reason to disbelieve him."

>That statement alone is sufficient to discredit Seth Shostak.

>I'm sure he knows about Alain Aspect's faster than light
>interactions between photons travelling in opposite directions.

As well as Bell's experiment which indicated that quantum
particles travel instantaneously, over vast distances.


Rich Reynolds







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             Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB -

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 11:41:25 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 16:55:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB -


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 07:53:06 -0800
>Subject: Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB  - Connors

>>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:30:22 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB

<snip>

>>Source: Alien Abduction And Research

>>http://www.abduct.com/worley/worley20.htm

<snip>

>What a crock of crap this entire story represents.

<snip>

>So. Go ahead weenies, catch rods and orbs on videos when
>specimens should go into a net and onto the microscope slide.
>Drag out Cydonia, Aztec, space alien bodies on ice and the rest
>of it until you drive away the last sensible people willing to
>look at UFO matters objectively. Keep it up and you may have the
>whole tent to yourselves.

Not so fast, Larry. You do want the database info from Robert
Gribble's NUFORC to add to your database, don't you?

Wendy Connors






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                Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? -

From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 23:53:54 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 16:58:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? -


>From: Aarom LeClair <saucer.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 04:46:54 -0500
>Subject: Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports?

>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 08:13:19 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports?

>>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 23:38:47 EST
>>>Subject: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports?

>>>Anyone got any papers or books where supposed crashed or
>>>captured UFO/ET craft were recovered and there is material
>>>analysis done on said remnants?

>>>I know there are bits and pieces here and there but am unaware
>>>of any comprehensive look at them.

><snip>

>Yor best bet is to look into alien implants. So far nothing off
>a craft that has been proving to be of ET origin.

Hi Guys!

Having had the privilege of being sent many suspected ET/UFO
physical (and even biological) artifacts, including many "alien
implants" from numerous sources for testing at appropriate
research/analysis labs here in Canada, we have failed to
establish conclusive proof that any of these artifacts were
artificial and of extraterrestrial origin. One notable possible
exceptions are the two Ubatuba Magnesium UFO specimens in the
possesion of Dr. Peter Sturrock, Emeritus Professor of Space
Science at Standford University.

For a few interesting accounts of other alleged flying saucer
debris recovered in the U.S. which Americans shared with their
Canadian colleagues, go to the Wilbert B. Smith web page below
and click on 'hardware'.

http://presidentialufo.com/top_secret_committee.htm

Among the many boxes of UFO related material from the Smith
collection at the University of Ottawa are also actual fragments
of the mysterious 3000 pound mass (thought by some to be slag)
that was discovered along shore of the St. Lawrence River in
1960 shortly after a sonic boom produced by an object falling
from the sky shook the area. I have an official report published
by the Canadian Government on the analysis done on this
mysterious mass which I can send a copy to you if you're
interested.

This weekend's Second Annual UFO Crash Retrieval Conference in
Las Vegas could reveal some new cases of recovered debris from
crashed UFOs.


Nick Balaskas








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                Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term -

From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 05:39:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:33:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term -


>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:11:39 -0800
>Subject: Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term

>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:45:56 -0500
>>Subject: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term
><snip>

>>There are only a few people that have attempted to make a living
>>through their interest in UFOs, and it has proven to be very
>>limited.

>Yes, it's been limited... for the honest researcher. The
>sensationalistic idiots are the only ones making any money.

I've spent more money than I will ever make in the paranormal.

Wonder how much your buddy Sean David Morten makes Royce? Make
more than Ed Dames? I'm waiting for SDM or his girlfriend to
slip up and call you a child molester in a more public way. Then
you could sue him for a million.







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                Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Reynolds

From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:49:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:36:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Reynolds


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:42:32 -0500
>Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI

>>Source: The BBC - Science & Nature: Space

>http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/space/spacechat/livechat/seth_shostak.shtml

>>Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI

><snip>

>>Seth Shostak: "As far as we know, nothing can beat radio or
>>light for speed - Albert Einstein told us that, and so far
>>there's no reason to disbelieve him."

>That statement alone is sufficient to discredit Seth Shostak.

>I'm sure he knows about Alain Aspect's faster than light
>interactions between photons travelling in opposite directions.

As well as Bell's experiment which indicated that quantum
particles travel instantaneously, over vast distances.


Rich Reynolds






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             Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB -

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 13:13:39 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:38:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB -


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 07:53:06 -0800
>Subject: Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB  - Connors

>>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:30:22 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB

><snip>

>>>Source: Alien Abduction And Research

>>>http://www.abduct.com/worley/worley20.htm

><snip>

>>What a crock of crap this entire story represents.

><snip>

>Hello Wendy (and Royce and James and others)

>There has been an amazing barrage of drivel on this List the
>last few days or weeks; rods, orbs, flying saucer parts... I
>forget what else. Cydonia?

>I've gotten in the habit of hitting the delete key on sight of
>certain names and topics. Somebody asked why the usual pundits
>didn't chime in. It is my fear that the sheer volume of BS will
>drive them away! That would be a terrible loss.

>I sense a genuine mystery to UFOs. Our 5-watt enthusiasts can't
>solve it, and may well do the exact opposite by driving away the
>talent really needed.

>As for rods and orbs, I still await an answer why they don't use
>a butterfly net. Cydonia? Some people want to devote our space
>program to that. If Cydonia were crawling with probes, and
>having found nothing, they would be asking for bulldozers to dig
>up ancient Martian sewers.

>Meanwhile, Greg pointed out an article from the Dallas Morning
>News: Excess methane on Mars! That is way more interesting. It
>at least suggests the possibility of Martian microbes. Simple
>bacteria maybe.... But! _If_ they can be proved to exist, it
>would be the first extraterrestrial life ever discovered!

>So. Go ahead weenies, catch rods and orbs on videos when
>specimens should go into a net and onto the microscope slide.
>Drag out Cydonia, Aztec, space alien bodies on ice and the rest
>of it until you drive away the last sensible people willing to
>look at UFO matters objectively. Keep it up and you may have the
>whole tent to yourselves.


Hi Larry,

Agreed and agreed. I just hope mine isn't one of the names whose
posts you regularly delete.

I predict that no one will come forward with an orb or rod in a
shoe box with airholes punched in it... net or no net.

I predict that the better among us will patiently wait and wade
through the drivel for the occasional shard of compelling info,
although I could be tragically mistaken.

The 'silence of the lords' on certain subjects speaks volumes
about the likely validity thereof.

Unfortunately, fools (like me) rush in while the lords do not...
not due to fear but for weariness at having to make the same
boring trip yet again.

Here's hoping that the needle in the haystack continues to draw
the best and brightest back to the List for some time.


Kyle







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             Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB -

From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 20:58:41 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:40:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB -


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:25:07 -0600
>Subject: Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB

>His site includes a newspaper clipping stating that he is a
>leading authority. I wonder where they got that from... Worley
>himself?

>The site as a whole is a grab bag for several absurd theories
>and much of his writing seems to misunderstand even some of the
>literature to which he refers.

>If this guy qualifies as a leading authority, is it any wonder
>that the media gives the subject a rather backhanded notoriety?

>His research appears to consist chiefly of visiting fringe
>pseudo-science websites and regurgitating what he picked up
>without even fully reading or comprehending what he has read.

>And how many other fringe elements will now quote Worley as an
>authority to bolster their own outlandish claims?

>Ridiculous, and detrimental to every serious researcher.

But not too ridiculous for his work to appear in that august
'scientific' - "MUFON's mission is the scientific study of UFOs
..." - publication, MUFON UFO Journal, where a rambling,
incoherent, unreferenced article by Worley appears in the
September 2004 issue. Admittedly, though, it's not the daftest
article in this issue. It almost seems as if there is some sort
of competition to see who can get the craziest article
published.


John Harney







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                     Re: The Real Face on Mars - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul>
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 13:05:54 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:43:48 -0500
Subject: Re: The Real Face on Mars - Tonnies


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:23:23 -0600
>Subject: Re: The Real Face on Mars

<snip>

>Does anybody of note really still believe that the face is a
>construct of intelligence rather than of weather and time?

The 'people of note' are scientists and choose not to 'believe'
anything. But yes, there are a number of credentialed scientists
working in disparate disciplines who think the Face - and other
objects in the Cydonia region - 'might' be evidence of
intelligent design and warrants future study. The foremost among
these is probably Mark J. Carlotto, author of The Martian
Enigmas.

I recommend the following site:

http://www.newfrontiersinscience.com

For many more:

http://www.mactonnies.com/cydonialinks.html


=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot.nul)

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com

New book: "After the Martian Apocalypse"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/074348293X







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             Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB -

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul>
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 13:14:18 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:46:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB -


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 07:53:06 -0800
>Subject: Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB

<snip>

>There has been an amazing barrage of drivel on this List the
>last few days or weeks; rods, orbs, flying saucer parts... I
>forget what else. Cydonia?

Larry,

While I agree that the latest 'enhancement' of the Face that
appeared on the List is indeed drivel, I disagree that the
question of possible ET artifacts on Mars is drivel.

Unlike anecdotal stories of alien corpses, the nature of the
features in the Cydonia region - and elsewhere - is amenable to
scientific study. It's a theoretically valid inquiry - are
certain formations on the Martian surface natural or artificial?

<snip>

>As for rods and orbs, I still await an answer why they don't use
>a butterfly net. Cydonia? Some people want to devote our space
>program to that. If Cydonia were crawling with probes, and
>having found nothing, they would be asking for bulldozers to dig
>up ancient Martian sewers.

There's no reason to devote a manned space program to Cydonia.
But if we're going to visit Mars in person eventually, I would
hope we would pay the region a careful visit.


=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot.nul)

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com

New book: "After the Martian Apocalypse"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/074348293X







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                                 CSI & UFOs

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 16:19:05 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:54:52 -0500
Subject: CSI & UFOs


I Told You So - The Heidi Game, CSI, & UFOs

I don't know how many times I've said that the public won't be
alarmed about UFOs until one day or night a UFO interrupts
either a popular TV show, the transportation of beer,
cigarettes, or snack foods.

No sooner said than done an incident of national emergency
erupted earlier this week when a CBS news exec decided to
interrupt the last few minutes of the popular crime drama, CSI
to announce the breaking news that Palestinian leader Yasser
Arafat had finally kicked the bucket.

The backlash from fans of the show who were left wondering
'whodunnit' was so severe that CBS fired the senior producer who
authorized the news announcement leaving viewers with such a
cliffhanger that CBS then had to rebroadcast the episode
uninterrupted later in the week.

It reminded me of another incident when I was a wee lad, my Pop
and every other Dad in the U.S. was watching a football game and
during the last few minutes NBC decided to end the broadcast to
show the film, Heidi. If I recall it was a Raiders/Jets game
with 1 minute left with the Jets ahead. The network cut to
Heidi, and as fate would have it the Raiders came from behind
and won.

I remember floors shaking as Dad and uncles and neighbors went
into a rampage. You would have thought it was Pearl Harbor
again. Even our stalwarth German Shepherd and I bolted for
safety. Thank goodness I was wearing my trusty PF Flyers
sneakers that advertised you could 'run faster, jump higher'.
Soon the neighborhood looked like one of those scenes from a
Frankenstein movie with villagers weilding torches and
pitchforks meandering through the hills.

My point being, people in the U.S. are unconcerned 'til their
creature comfort and play time is interrupted.

You want to cause a nationwide panic and rampage that would put
Earth on the map throughout the known Universe?

Here's all ya' gotta do, but batten down the hatches and keep a
good supply of fresh water and flashlights:

Interrupt any of the popular Soap Operas like General Hospital
and tell people that aliens from another world did it.

Within one week we'd be launching a fleet of starships from the
secret 'Shadow Government/Black Ops' bunkers targeted at
everything from Mars to Orion's Belt.


Best,

Greg







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                      Re: Kevin Randle? - Sanchez-Ocejo

From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami.nul>
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 16:19:57 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:57:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Kevin Randle? - Sanchez-Ocejo


>From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 02:40:06 -0500
>Subject: Re: Kevin Randle?

>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:11:46 EST
>>Subject: Re: Kevin Randle?

>>For those interested, Jesse Marcel was recalled to active duty
>>and now finds himself in Iraq. This is a stealth draft that has
>>gotten little media attention. He is stationed inside the Sunni
>>Triangle but not very close to some of the cities that you've
>>seen on the news. For the Marcels, we see the father in the
>>Pacific during World War II, Jesse Jr., around Vietnam and now
>>in Iraq.

>>Thanks for the concern about me.

>Is there an age limit on being active? Not you Kevin, but I mean
>Jesse? I had no idea that they would call someone his age.

>This was also news to vets I've talked with. This rare?


How old is Jesse Marcel?







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                      Re: The Real Face on Mars - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 22:07:36 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:59:16 -0500
Subject: Re: The Real Face on Mars - Hall


>From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 19:29:29 -0600
>Subject: Re: The Real Face on Mars

>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers - :>
>Date: Friday, November 12, 2004 6:54 AM
>Subject: UFO UpDate: The Real Face on Mars

>>Source: The Real Face on Mars

>>http://www.therealface.com/crowndecoration.html

>>09-30-04

>>The Real Face on Mars
>>by David Lee

>I did notice one mark beyond some apparent symmetry of what
>could be a bird, but the author has not emphasized one
>distinguishing mark adjacent to the bottom of the big horn on
>the lefthand side of bigbirds head.

>If you look at the straight line at the bottom of the big horn,
>you can see what clearly resembles an inverted 'U'. Why did
>the author not emphasise that? Maybe it just didn't fit
>into the picture.

>Egyption numerology says that it is a symbol to represent a
>written numeral of 10 or base 10, see the second link, below.

>http://www.therealface.com/images/headbadge/winged_creature_anim2.gif

>http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/HistTopics/Egyptian_numerals.html


If you look real hard, you will see an image of Elvis, just south
and east of the TBM Avengers lost in the Bermuda Rectangle in
1945.

 - Dick







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                  Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 22:15:14 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 10:01:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Hall


>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:49:11 -0500
>Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI

>>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:42:32 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI

>>>Source: The BBC - Science & Nature: Space

>>http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/space/spacechat/livechat/seth_shostak.shtml

>>>Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI

>>>Seth Shostak: "As far as we know, nothing can beat radio or
>>>light for speed - Albert Einstein told us that, and so far
>>>there's no reason to disbelieve him."

>>That statement alone is sufficient to discredit Seth Shostak.

>>I'm sure he knows about Alain Aspect's faster than light
>>interactions between photons travelling in opposite directions.

>As well as Bell's experiment which indicated that quantum
>particles travel instantaneously, over vast distances.


Not to mention UFOs, which travel instantaneously from ahead of
pursuing jet interceptors to behind them, emitting cries of
nyah, nyah, nyah!


 - Dick







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                   Faded Discs Major Donation Acquisition

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 15:23:34 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 10:03:13 -0500
Subject: Faded Discs Major Donation Acquisition


Greetings to Fellow Listarians:

I am very pleased to announce a major donation to the Audio
History of Ufology Project.

Mr. Robert Gribble, founder of NUFORC, has generously donated
his audio logs and recordings to Wendy Connors. Mr. Gribble, a
dedicated and distinguished Ufologist, spent many years taking
calls from the public, police, etc. and his audio archive
presents a chronological testament to Ufology's history.

The sheer volume of material Mr. Gribble donated, contain the
the contact information for the thousands of calls he received.
Some cases he investigated thoroughly and those cases contain
witness drawings, photos, news clippings and sighting data
information.

Each log entry corresponds with the audio interview of the
witness. The logs contain calls from all over the nation, but
the major concentration are those cases in the Pacific
Northwest. Of course the number of recordings are in the
thousands.

If this weren't enough to flabbergast any historical archivist,
such as myself, Mr. Gribble's materials are organized
chronologically with each entry listing the tape and track
number for easy access. A magnificent data archive of research.

There are literally hundreds and hundreds of cases virtually
unknown to the research field contained in Mr. Gribble's work
and archive and there are certainly some very intriguing
important cases that will be new to all of us.

Thank you, Bob, from all of us in the field of Ufology and those
who are dedicated to preserving the history. We are extremely
grateful.

Due to the expansiveness of the material, it will be next summer
before I will be in a position to begin listing, on UFO Updates,
various case information. Access to the Gribble collection is
open to serious researchers. Please give advance notice for
scheduling.


Wendy Connors
www.fadeddiscs.com








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             Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB -

From: Bob Shell <bob.nul>
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 18:00:28 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 10:11:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB -


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 07:53:06 -0800
>Subject: Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB

<snip>

>So. Go ahead weenies, catch rods and orbs on videos when
>specimens should go into a net and onto the microscope slide.
>Drag out Cydonia, Aztec, space alien bodies on ice and the rest
>of it until you drive away the last sensible people willing to
>look at UFO matters objectively. Keep it up and you may have the
>whole tent to yourselves.

This is precisely why I have to take five-year breaks from the
field of UFO research, and I really don't miss anything. Some of
the names change, for sure, but so far as what's being said it's
the same-old same-old.

We need some new ideas, people! We need to forget rods, orbs,
and countless other optical or electronic imaging artifacts and
look for the real mysteries, of which there are plenty.

We need some new ideas, people! We need to forget rods, orbs,
and countless other optical or electronic imaging artifacts and
look for the real mysteries, of which there are plenty.



Now I return to my lurk mode.


Bob Shell







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   Nov > Nov 15

                Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? -

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 18:39:16 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 07:43:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports? -


>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 17:19:33 +0100
>Subject: Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports?

>>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:09:56 -0800
>>Subject: Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports?

>>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:47:47 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Crashed UFO Materials Analysis Reports?

><snip>

>>Back in 2001, media promoter Chris Wyatt tried to breathe life
>>back into the Roswell chunk and was scheduled to hold a media
>>conference introducing the supposed piece of UFO crash debris.
>>He also had planned to do an InterNet UFO conference - only
>>$5.95, or something along those lines.

>>At first, it was made out to be some new discovery and Wyatt
>>gave me an 'exclusive' story on it. Things were fine and dandy
>>until it was revealed it was the same piece of metal from the
>>Roswell 50th that was introduced by Paul Davids and Derrel
>>Sims...

>So what?

>Do you mean that is was a piece of crap?

>What do you know about it, about the analysis?

>What happened to the scientist, Dr VernonClark, who performed
>the analysis?

>What happened to Chris Wyatt, his conference and his website
>projectUfocommunity.com?

>Who can answer these questions on this List?


Hi Gildas,

The entire episode at the Roswell 50th was little more than a
joke. In my opinion the principals involved in this tried to
rush through it as quickly as possible and get out of town.

Afterwards, the press and public were sent one way into the
lobby, while the others rushed out of a rear door to waiting
cars. I was there along with many others who watch this List,
and the event was a much-hyped failure.

Does that mean the research wasn't good? Well I found a site in
the UK that has the following write-up, which admittedly is
composed by a skeptic - this is clipped from:

http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk/abwatch/aw4.html


-----

Crashing and burning at Roswell

I don't suppose Pendred will be interested in the real facts
about Dr Russell Vernon-Clark's 'scientific' analysis of Derrel
Sims' 'Roswell Debris' either (see AW3 and Alien Encounters 16).

Pressed by Albuquerque physicist Dave Thomas, Vernon-Clark has
backed off a long way from his Roswell 50th claim that "these
tests have far less error than... even the most sophisticated
DNA testing performed today". Since the original presentation he
has corrected "huge arithmetical errors", admitted he failed to
use a control of known isotopic origin, explained the Ge-75
problem by suggesting that the testers had confused Ge-75 with
other elements with a mass of 75 (yes, they didn't know what
element they were analyzing), and acknowledged that "the data
and possible alternative explanations should have been examined
with much greater rigor prior to a public announcement".

-----

If one can't find a scientist who can do the job correctly and
is willing to stand by their findings, then there's not a lot we
could ever hope for. But given the way this was handled, there
were obviously flaws in the process.


Steve







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                 Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 14:16:59 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:12:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Hatch


>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:49:11 -0500
>Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI

>>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:42:32 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI

>>>Source: The BBC - Science & Nature: Space

>>http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/space/spacechat/livechat/seth_shostak.shtml

>>>Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI

>><snip>

>>>Seth Shostak: "As far as we know, nothing can beat radio or
>>>light for speed - Albert Einstein told us that, and so far
>>>there's no reason to disbelieve him."

>>That statement alone is sufficient to discredit Seth Shostak.

>>I'm sure he knows about Alain Aspect's faster than light
>>interactions between photons travelling in opposite directions.

>As well as Bell's experiment which indicated that quantum
>particles travel instantaneously, over vast distances.


Hello Rich:

Unless I have this very wrong, it is certain entangled
_properties_ of particles that propagate faster than light. I
refer to entities like 'spin'. The particles themselves stay
put, or travel at ordinary luminal/subluminal speeds.

This may sound like a technical quibble, but it is a very
important one. I would be astounded and very pleased if actual
particles, real physical things and not just their properties,
were proved to travel FTL.

Entanglement is an extremely interesting thing. Even for
properties to propagate FTL is amazing and counter-intuitive.

I can't fault Shostak for his statement above. His other
arguments are a separate issue.


Best

- Larry







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                       Sociology Related To Anomalies

From: Chris Burns <Thurstonoreggae.nul>
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 23:39:39 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:38:31 -0500
Subject: Sociology Related To Anomalies


List,

This is intended for List members who are interested in the
'contact' experience as a general theme, and to those interested
in sociological aspects of anomaly topics.

Hollywood is about to oust to the mainstream a subject that has
previously been kept mostly within the ghost/haunting research
community that has had an interesting reaction amongst the
subgroups of the ghost community, one that probably parallels
how the UFO community's subgroups felt about high strangeness
and/or abduction reports previous to the 1970s.

This might provide a rare opportunity to see how the public and
mainstream media react to a "new" topic concerning the unknown.

The subject is electronic voice phenomenon which purports to be
post-mortem contact via audio recordings, and the movie vehicle
is titled "White Noise", set to come out this January.

I've seen interesting public reactions to Spielberg's "Close
Encounters", which to me noticeably increased public interest in
UFOs, and Strieber's Communion - the book, not the movie -
which redefined the abduction experience in the public's mind.

But neither of these introduced anything new to the mainstream.
"White Noise" is unusual because it is being promoted via
trailers by stating the legitimacy of the actual phenomenon with
interviews of researchers and examples of (supposed) real-life
EVP recordings before mentioning the fictional film.  Whether
its just a brilliant campaign to promote the movie, or whether
there is a sincere agenda by the filmmakers to promote the
legitimacy of the phenomenon, it is noticeably working.

There is already a large buzz from those on movie fan websites
who previously had not heard of the topic, and audiences viewing
the trailer have definitely reacted to it, thinking initially
that it is a documentary.

Those who are interested in the theme of contact with an "other"
already know all about EVP, but even for those with no interest
in the subject, it might be an interesting gauge of sorts to see
how the public reacts to an anomaly topic that just by what
it proposes is occurring is guaranteed to rattle some cages.

Should be interesting.


Chris Burns







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   Nov > Nov 16

                        Chupacabra Discoverers United

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 07:30:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 07:30:09 -0500
Subject: Chupacabra Discoverers United




Source: WOAI-TV - San Antonio, Texaz

http://www.woai.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=AA3ED460-09FB-46CB-AAA5-27A
353AA1186

11-16-04

[Video available]

Chupacabra Discoverers United

Martha Trevino
News 4 WOAI

It's a relationship that's as wild as the creatures that brought
them together. What exactly are these creatures? A dog? A wolf?
The chupacabra? WOAI brings together an Elmendorf rancher and an
East Texas animal lover, so they can share their fascinating
finds.

Whatever they are, they're turning up more and more these days.
While we can merely speculate, two people have firsthand
knowledge of the critters.

Elmendorf rancher Devin MacNally started this chupacabra
phenomenon months ago when he shot a mysterious animal on his
property. East Texas animal lover Stacy Womack made another
mysterious discovery under her house.

News 4 WOAI took Devin to Lufkin to meet Stacy, so the two could
compare notes. It wasn't long before the two set to swapping
stories.

"See his didn't have quite the overbite, but it's so much the
same," said Stacy as the two compared notes.

"The ears are always what got me anyway," replied Devin. "But
see how much healthier mine is? It was pregnant."

Another peculiar coincidence...

"It only took a shot to kill mine, but it didn't make a noise,"
explained Devin. "It didn't move. It didn't do nothing. So I
thought that it was like a possum."

Stacey says almost exactly the same thing occurred with her
mysterious beast.

Stacy spent twenty years working with a veterinarian and as a
zookeeper for five years, so some of her expertise came in handy
on this visit.

She debunked the mange theory.

"This was not a secondary infection," she pointed out as she
examined the pictures. "This was scaly skin. There was no
secondary infection in this animal caused by mange."

"That's exactly what I said," said Devin. "But somebody looked
at it last week and said it's just a mangy coyote."

While Stacy has ruled out what she found as being a dog or a
coyote, she�s still not sure what it is.

The first round of DNA tests on the Elmendorf beast came back
inconclusive because the animal had been dead for too long.
Stacy�s hoping that new DNA tests will help explain the animal's
origin.

Both Stacy and Devin have had some interesting ideas on the
subject.

"I don't think it's an alien, but I wonder about that spaceship
[Space Shuttle Columbia] that blew up over here. Something might
have come out of it, and caused some type of genetic problem,"
Stacy theorized.

"Decontamination due to radiation or extreme heat," said Devin.

Although we didn't find out exactly what this mysterious
creature is, at least we know we haven't seen the last of them
yet. Both Stacy and Devin agree that there has to be more.

They also want to prove to the small town of Lufkin that Stacy
didn't just fall off the turnip truck.

"We're going to get a trap and see if we get it caught," she
said.

We'll let you know what happens.

Related Stories:

    * Another Opinion on the "Chupacabras"
    * East Texas Chupacabra
    * Another Texas Chupacabra?
    * Could it be a Chupacabra?
    * Chupacabra? Strange Animal Found in Elmendorf
    * Chupacabra? Exhuming the Elmendorf Beast
    * Elmendorf Chupacabra Really A Deer?
    * S.A. Zoo Weighs-In on Chupacabra Debate
    * Researchers Postpone Chupacabra Dig








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   Nov > Nov 16

                        Re: Kevin Randle? - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 08:41:59 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:39:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Kevin Randle? - Lehmberg


>From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 10:33:15 -0500
>Subject: Re: Kevin Randle?

>>From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 16:19:57 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Kevin Randle?

>>How old is Jesse Marcel?

>He was 11 in 1947, so 68/69 now.

I think it likely that he wanted to go, guys. He's a flight
surgeon and may have been interested in and concerned by the
prolonged chronic and acute effects of continuous combat on
military aviators. I'm certain he could have said no.

Idiosyncratic credit for his ufological testimony, too, I should
think. I'm sure he was in short supply, also, and much valued...
more credit.


alienview.nul -:=A6:-
  www.AlienView.net








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             Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB -

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:19:54 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:41:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB -


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:24:00 -0600
>Subject: Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB

>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 20:58:41 -0000
>>Subject: Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB

>>But not too ridiculous for his work to appear in that august
>>'scientific' - "MUFON's mission is the scientific study of UFOs
>>..." - publication, MUFON UFO Journal, where a rambling,
>>incoherent, unreferenced article by Worley appears in the
>>September 2004 issue. Admittedly, though, it's not the daftest
>>article in this issue. It almost seems as if there is some sort
>>of competition to see who can get the craziest article
>>published.

>...Closely followed by ardent reflex denialists who cherrypick
>the occurrences they deign to comment on?

A good point. It is not the best analysis method for skeptics to
pick/report the UFO cases that they can prove are something
prosaic and throw out any case that appears or is shown, after
analysis to not be explainable (at least by them). But it is
fairly typical of scientific research to not report negative.
This doesn't make it right either. Sadly, I do that all too
often. There are too many cases. If I say, "My analysis cannot
conclusively or to a high probability show that a particular
case is something prosaic", then where does that get us?
Nowhere, because it could just mean I am not imaginative enough
and/or have enough data to do the job. Basically, I am getting
to the point where all these cases are just interesting
entertaining stories, but of little use. They prove nothing
because they have been going on for decades. It used to be that
photos were SOMETHING, but even those are of dubious use.

I guess we got to ask ourselves, what is the point to UFO
research? If we just want to document cases for historical or
entertainment purposes, fine. There are enough to keep an army
of researchers busy.

But if we want to prove UFO are something like alien craft or
whatever, then compiling anecdotes seem to NOT be the way to do
it.








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   Nov > Nov 16

                Re: Faded Discs Major Donation Acquisition -

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 08:44:00 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:46:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Faded Discs Major Donation Acquisition -


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 15:54:54 -0500
>Subject: Re: Faded Discs Major Donation Acquisition

>>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates <UFOUpdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 15:23:34 -0700
>>Subject: Faded Discs Major Donation Acquisition

>>Greetings to Fellow Listarians:

>>I am very pleased to announce a major donation to the Audio
>>History of Ufology Project.

>>Mr. Robert Gribble, founder of NUFORC, has generously donated
>>his audio logs and recordings to Wendy Connors.

<snip>

>If Ufology should ever be re-defined as such, I suggest you
>don't want Wendy Connors' or Richard Hall's work, say, kept at a
>single location. It is very expensive to make photocopies, of
>course, but it is worth thinking about, given the political
>tension in the U.S. and elsewhere.


Eleanor,

A good suggestion. I cannot speak for anyone but myself. My Last
Will and Testament states where my archive materials will be
sent after my demise. The most important documents, etc. have
been duplicated and reside in several researchers collections
and the bulk of my archive has already been placed out of State.

As new material is preserved digitally, several copies are made
and stored in MP3 format as backups. Following duplication,
original media is sent to an out of State archive that maintains
my materials. The CD versions are used to make compilations,
etc. and people who collect the compilations are literally
scattered the world over.

Thus, even if a terrible tragedy were to befall the Audio
History of Ufology Project, 99.8% of the materials would be safe
and available. The Digital archive will go to the Modern Culture
Library at Ohio State University after I am gone. The originals
and duplicates will reside in another archive out of State.

So, researchers should have no fear about what happens to my
archive. Arrangements were made and the material will be
accessable to future generations of researchers.


Wendy Connors
www.fadeddiscs.com








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   Nov > Nov 16

                     Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI

From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:33:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:50:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 14:16:59 -0800
>Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI

>>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:49:11 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI

>>>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:42:32 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI

>>>>Source: The BBC - Science & Nature: Space

>>http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/space/spacechat/livechat/seth_shostak.shtml

>>>>Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI

>>><snip>

>>>>Seth Shostak: "As far as we know, nothing can beat radio or
>>>>light for speed - Albert Einstein told us that, and so far
>>>>there's no reason to disbelieve him."

>>>That statement alone is sufficient to discredit Seth Shostak.

>>>I'm sure he knows about Alain Aspect's faster than light
>>>interactions between photons travelling in opposite directions.

>>As well as Bell's experiment which indicated that quantum
>>particles travel instantaneously, over vast distances.

>Unless I have this very wrong, it is certain entangled
>_properties_ of particles that propagate faster than light. I
>refer to entities like 'spin'. The particles themselves stay
>put, or travel at ordinary luminal/subluminal speeds.

>This may sound like a technical quibble, but it is a very
>important one. I would be astounded and very pleased if actual
>particles, real physical things and not just their properties,
>were proved to travel FTL.

>Entanglement is an extremely interesting thing. Even for
>properties to propagate FTL is amazing and counter-intuitive.

>I can't fault Shostak for his statement above. His other
>arguments are a separate issue.


Larry,

I dug out my copy of Quantum Reality, by Nick Herbert and re-
read my heavily highlighted and red-pencilled sections of
Chapter 12: Bell's Interconnectedness Theorem.

I think the postulations by Bell, and Herbert, indicate that the
interactions of quamtum particles are non-local and do, indeed,
show that the particles - whatever they are - intrude on the
space and particles vast distances apart - faster than the speed
light.

Page 223 of the Ancor Press paperback (1985) says this:


"The mechanism for this instant interconnectedness is not some
invisible field that stretches from one part to the next, but
that a bit of each part's 'being' is lodged in the other. Each
quon leaves some of its "phase" in the other's care, and this
phase exchange connects them forever after.

What phase entanglement is we may never know, but Bell's theorem
tells us that it is no limp mathematical fiction but a reality
to be reckoned with."


The whole concept is hard to understand - for me. But I do get
the distinct impression that the interaction, recounted by Bell,
is real, tangible....not merely a tickle that occurs at less
than the speed of light and is without physicality.

But I could be wrong - and I would be wise to defer to your
view perhaps.

Thanks for the response.


Rich








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             Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term - Miller

From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:09:09 +0000 (GMT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:56:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term - Miller


>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 11:18:00 +0000 (GMT)
>Subject: Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term

>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:54:44 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term

>>>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:11:39 -0800
>>>Subject: Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term

>>>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:45:56 -0500
>>>>Subject: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term

 >><snip>


>Hi Steve and List

>I still fail to understand the need for science and scientist
>to get involved in UFO's and ET?

>Hasn't science and technology made enough mess of our planet
>via  capitast function to disregard them altogether? Who gave
>us the atom bomb so we could blow each other to smithereens?

>UFOs and ET are folklaw with ET furthering this belief in
>humans because they do not openly reveal themselves.
>Therefore if we want to have sensationalism why are you a
>critic of this?

>Folk enjoy what they do and are but it seems you like to be
>over critical and derive your enjoyment in that fashion. Why
>is that?

>Why do we have to prove beyond a doubt the existance of UFOs
>and ET anyway. We all get lots of pleasure not doing so as,
>probably, does ET.

>Most folk who put forward evidence of UFOs and ET are jumped
>on from a great height so most do not bother to do so
>anymore, me included.

>I will read UFO/ET books though if they are written in a way I
>personally find 'gripping'.


Hi Col

You are on the wrong List. Talk and opinions like the above are
heresy here.

You see, you want to have fun. You want to enjoy ufology as an
enquiring, honest human being. You simple minded, naive fool.

Serious ufology is for serious people who desire to be taken,
errr, seriously. Yet they cannot be taken seriously because they
propogate a subject that isn't serious. Yet, they wish to make it
so. Comments like yours just get in the way. Please refrain from
making any more observations like the above.

In future, if posting any further message to this List, avoid
the following words or phrases;

Synchronisity
Sedona
alien bodies
Life on Mars
New Ageism
Annuki
reptoids
Hollow earth
Stargate
etc.

These are not acceptable words and your usage of them is likely
to result in you "being jumped on from a great height."

Furthermore, your questioning of the need for scientific
involvement in ufology clearly marks you out as "not one of us",
for you cannot see the light. Scientific involvement will lead
to salvation, no, hold on, that's not a pc word either, err it
will lead to... darn and dam. What will it lead to?


Stuart Miller








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                 Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:46:04 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:02:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - White


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 14:16:59 -0800
>Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI

<snip>

>>>>Seth Shostak: "As far as we know, nothing can beat radio or
>>>>light for speed - Albert Einstein told us that, and so far
>>>>there's no reason to disbelieve him."

<snip>

>Unless I have this very wrong, it is certain entangled
>_properties_ of particles that propagate faster than light. I
>refer to entities like 'spin'. The particles themselves stay
>put, or travel at ordinary luminal/subluminal speeds.

>This may sound like a technical quibble, but it is a very
>important one. I would be astounded and very pleased if actual
>particles, real physical things and not just their properties,
>were proved to travel FTL.

Agreed. But when effects travel faster than light, that is a
crucial _pointer_ to more discoveries which may involve events
like, say, real physical things ducking into a different
dimension set, travelling FTL, then popping back out into the
dimension set we live in.

And for Seth Shostak not to at least mention this implication,
and just lump it all into his "nothing" term, is enough for me
to _seriously_ question his motives.

I'll try to say it better this time, but in our field, we know
that some scientific leading lights know very well about the
proven-beyond-doubt remote neurological influence technology,
yet go on national radio and tell the public they know nothing
about such technology.

I can't call that a lie, but I can call it "less than entirely
truthful."

Getting at UFO/ET truth requires, I believe, raising objections
to sweeping statements such as Seth Shostak's above.


Eleanor White







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   Nov > Nov 16

                NWSURC Recently Reported Sightings - 11-15-04

From: Barb Campbell <nwsurc.nul>
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:29:46 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:08:19 -0500
Subject: NWSURC Recently Reported Sightings - 11-15-04


Northwest Saskatchewan UFO Research Center (NWSURC)

Recently Reported Sightings - Nov.15, 2004

Double Sightings Back To Back In Maidstone

Date: November 12, 2004
Time: 8:00pm approx
Location: Maidstone
Objects: 1
Witnesses: 2

Report received via phone:

A witnessed called me today and said that both he and a friend
had been travelling the roads along the outskirts of the town of
Maidstone on Friday November 12th in the evening, when they had
encountered two different sightings.

While travelling in a northeasterly direction, both men observed
two white lights in the night sky. One light was sitting
directly above the other and appeared to be approximately 2000
feet above the other. The witness told me that he was fairly
certain the lower light was an airplane, as this light flashed.
Then within about 8 to 10 minutes, the top light simply
vanished. But the bottom light remained visible, as they drove
away.

30 to 45 minutes later, both men were travelling in the
northeasterly direction and had just come over a hill, when
suddenly a bright flash of light came over the horizon. One
turned to the other and said, "Did you see that?"

They stopped the truck to have a better look. Up in the sky a
blue ball of fire was travelling across the sky. In an instant,
another light was ejected from it. Then the blue ball of fire
just blew up infront of their eyes. The light it created was
like a flatline going across the sky. The ejected light was
shaped like a half of a horseshoe. It continued to travel to the
right before it blinked and then disappeared.

Thank you to the witness.


Strobing Light In Silver Park Follows Melfort Couple

Date: November 22 1999
Time: 5:30am
Location: Silver Park, Melfort
Objects: 1
Witnesses: 2

Report received via phone and through the mail:

Description of sighting: On Nov. 22 1999, we left Melfort on our
way to Regina for Agribition. At approximately 5:30am, we come
to the top of a hill at Silver Park. Looking in the distance
ahead, I noticed a light flashing, I'm guessing 40 to 50 miles
away. I took it to be some sort of transmitter, although I
hadn't noticed it before.

We were driving 50 to 55 mph, as we were worried about icy
roads. As (wife's name deleted) was driving, I kept watching and
mentioned to her that something strange was coming at us at a
very high speed and getting larger.

When we reached a point about 2 miles from the hill, the light
was parallel to us.

The strobing light lit up the field, truck, and road like it was
daylight. You (we) could not make out a shape of craft, or hear
a sound. It was about 100 feet off the ground.

As we're travelling south, the light went in reverse and stayed
along beside us for a mile or more.

After about 5 minutes, it just drifted north, and I watched it
go past the tower on the Silver Park hill.

I have talked to people at Air Shows, pilots and police, to see
what sort of craft would have a huge light, strobing, and what
they were doing at that time of the morning.

Drawing of map can be viewed at:

http://ca.geocities.com/nwsurc/silverpark-99.htm

Notes to mention from phone conversation:

- first spotted light was 20 degrees to the right

- trees mentioned are "large"

- the light was "half as big as a car"

- lights were "underneath"

- the light was "like looking into a welding arc"

- strobe was " second on, second off" type

- when light approached truck, it was "...angled...50 feet above
powerline level"

- witnesses had stopped at a little gas station to ask if the
attendant there had seen the light. The attendant did not happen
to notice any light.

Thank you to both witnesses.


Semi Circular Object In Saskatoon

Date: July or August 1995
Time: 6:30am
Location: Saskatoon
Objects: 1
Witnesses: 1

Report received via e-mail:

Description of sighting: Me and Various members of my family in
the Saskatoon and surrounding area have had UFO sightings. I had
a rather shocking experience in 1995 when I was only 8yrs old.
Because it was so long ago and because I was only 8, I'm now
very skeptic as to how real it actually was.

It happened in the summer, i can't remember if it was July or
august, but it happened during Summer holidays from school. It
was early morning around 6:30. I'm very sure of the time becuase
I was afraid that if I got up I'd wake up my parents and then
i'd be in trouble. And I think it was around the same time as
the Air Show becuase I kept trying to see out the window that
was to high for me to see out of regularly and there seemed to
be alot of Jets or other loud planes were flying about. I kept
trying to see out the window to see these planes.

The planes would come by every once in a while, never seemed to
be any specific intervals in between them, i actually don't
recall seeing to many of the planes but they were very loud.
After a while i think i got bored of them until i heard one that
was louder then the rest. I was able to pull myself up higher to
the window ledge and was very excited because it was alot
louder. However, this really loud one wasn't an airplane. From
what I remember the object roared like a jet and was semi-
circular, it wasn't a disk. I can't remember how big it was but
i'm sure it was bigger then a regular sized car. It was metalic
and very shiny. I remeber the sun reflected off of it and it
wasn't easy to look at , but it wasn't blinding either. The
object had no wings or tail. I saw this loud shiny object come
from east i think, it flew really fast and kind of did a turn
around vertically over my neighbors garage and sped off back
from the direction it came from. It really scared me and every
time I heard the sound of a jet or Plane made me shut my eyes
really tight.

As far as I know i'm the only one in my neighborhood that saw it
or heard it. I'm very sure though that there is no missing time
and whatever it was I saw(I'm skeptic as too if I saw anything)
was not a plane or a jet or any craft i'd ever seen before.
Thanks.

Thank you to the witness.


Update on "Yellow Sphere Changes Its Appearance"
October 30, 2004 in Saskatoon

I have received phone calls that the very same object was also
witnessed by several children in Martensville, on the very same
day.

Report can be viewed at:

 http://ca.geocities.com/nwsurc/ssr-04-05.htm

Barb Campbell
NWSURC Box 263
Maidstone SK S0M 1M0
Ph:(306)893-4009
Northwest Saskatchewan UFO Research Center (NWSURC)
E-mail: nwsurc.nul
Web: http://ca.geocities.com/nwsurc
Discussion Group:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nwsurc
Member of UFORA Research Alliance


Barb Campbell, NWSURC
Box 263
Maidstone SK S0M 1M0
Ph:(306)893-4009
Northwest Saskatchewan UFO Research Center (NWSURC)
E-mail: nwsurc.nul
Web: http://ca.geocities.com/nwsurc
Discussion Group:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nwsurc

Member of UFORA Research Alliance

[May be re-distributed provided credit is given to both the
 author & UFO UpDates]








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   Nov > Nov 16

                 Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Hicks

From: Simon Hicks <slh.nul>
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:25:03 +0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:11:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Hicks


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 14:16:59 -0800
>Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI

>>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:49:11 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI

<snip>

>>As well as Bell's experiment which indicated that quantum
>>particles travel instantaneously, over vast distances.

>Unless I have this very wrong, it is certain entangled
>_properties_ of particles that propagate faster than light. I
>refer to entities like 'spin'. The particles themselves stay
>put, or travel at ordinary luminal/subluminal speeds.


Larry,

I am at best an "armchair physicist" i.e. I have been reading a
couple of texts on the history of physics recently and that is
the most I have done in the field since high school. So, not
overly qualified.

However, from what I have read I would agree with your comment.

>I can't fault Shostak for his statement above. His other
>arguments are a separate issue.

It is my understanding that Einstein included information as
being restricted to light speed - hence his description of
quantum entanglement as being "spooky" because information about
the state of one entangled particle is instantaneously
"transmitted" (this may be an erroneous description but it is
the best I can do to describe the action) to the other particle,
regardless of their distance from each other.

Subsequently, Einstein was proven wrong when it came to
information being restricted to FTL travel - as you eluded to in
your post - as a result of the now numerous experiments that
have demonstrated the validity of quantum entanglement.

Therefore, it seems to me that there is the possibility of
information from distant places being able to travel faster than
light (instantaneously in actual fact). I guess at this point of
time we haven't got a handle on how to access this information
(some Remote Viewers may dispute this) - but more advanced
civilisations (if they are out there) may.

But we do know that information can travel FTL as is
demonstrated thru quantum entanglement. Hopefully it wont be too
long before we understand the mechanics of this phenomenon so
that we can tap into it's potential (and Seth will have a brand
new toy to play with).

As far as a concept involving quantum entanglement for
communication purposes is concerned, you may find the following
link of interest.

http://p2pnet.net/story/2927


All the best,

Simon







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   Nov > Nov 16

              Aliens May Be Preparing Us For Ultimate Encounter

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 22:54:51 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:13:36 -0500
Subject: Aliens May Be Preparing Us For Ultimate Encounter


Source: KBCI-TV Idaho News

http://www.kbcitv.com/x5154.xml?ParentPageID=x5157&ContentID=x59663&Layout=KBCI.
xsl&AdGroupID=x5154

November 15, 2004

UFO Expert: Aliens May Be Preparing Us For Ultimate Encounter

By Scott Logan

BOISE--UFOs are showing a keen interest in our nuclear weapons
facilities, says investigator Robert Hastings, who has spent
countless hours analyzing documents dealing with UFO sightings
at nuclear missile launch sites and research labs in the United
States over the past several decades.

"You have reference to these objects hovering, racing away at
blinding speed," he told Idaho 2 News. "There is no evidence we
have an aircraft that can do that or anyone else on earth."

Hastings, who has devoted countless hours researching UFOs and
the U.S. government's reaction to them, was in Boise for a
lecture and slide show Monday at Boise State University.

Hastings believes we are being visited by aliens who have
mastered a faster than light form of space flight. And he
speculates they have not openly revealed themselves to avoid
public panic.

"What they're doing is engaging in a decades long psychological
preparation process whereby slowly but surely people on earth
understand this is real, they're here," he said.

Hastings believes three UFOs with aliens on board did crash at
Roswell, New Mexico in 1947 and points to a 1950 memo to FBI
Director J Edgar Hoover saying three so-called flying saucers
had been recovered "each one occupied by three bodies of human
shape but only 3 feet tall "

And he says the spectacular UFO sighting earlier this year off
the Yucatan Peninsula were the real deal. But Hastings is not a
believer in the theory aliens and earthlings are working
together at Area 51, the top secret base in the Nevada desert,
as some suggest.

In the end, Hastings says what's missing - so far - is physical
evidence, but he says the story is far from over.









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   Nov > Nov 16

                            Dan Ackroyd & MUFON?

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 07:53:23 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:15:48 -0500
Subject: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON?


Fellow Listerions,

I saw Dan Ackroyd on Live With Regis And Kelly - yes I admit
watching to it. In the segment he mentioned doing something with
MUFON, but I didn't catch all of it.

Can anyone enlighten me as to his involvement?


Thanks,

Frank








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   Nov > Nov 16

                      Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON? - Groff

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:42:01 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:11:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON? - Groff


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 07:53:23 -0800
>Subject: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON?


>Fellow Listerions,

>I saw Dan Ackroyd on Live With Regis And Kelly - yes I admit
>watching to it. In the segment he mentioned doing something with
>MUFON, but I didn't catch all of it.

>Can anyone enlighten me as to his involvement?

Ackroyd is a huge supporter and lifetime member of MUFON.

http://mufon.com/akroyd.htm


Terry








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   Nov > Nov 16

                      Ted Phillips' Tatra Investigation

From: Larry Cekander <larryroyc.nul>
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 07:35:45 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:16:52 -0500
Subject: Ted Phillips' Tatra Investigation


The Museum of the Unexplained located in Reeds Spring Missouri
is seeking a sponsor or sponsors to fund on going research
projects both here and in Slovakia.

This is a fully tax deductible credit on your income tax for
this past year.

The Museum of the Unexplained is a 501c3 tax except research
group.

Ted Phillips, a well known UFO trace evidence expert for 35 plus
years, and associate of J.Allen Hynek was told a very strange
story.

http://cptr.us/tatra.html

July 23, 1970 Ted received a call from Don Richmond, a long time
investigator with the Aerial Phenomena Research Organization. He
told of his neighbor, Antonin Horak, who had an interesting
experience during World War II. Don briefly described the
discovery by Horak of an unusual artifact in a cave in
Czechoslovakia.

Ted contacted Jim and Corel Lorenzen, directors of the Aerial
Phenomena Research Organization, with our ideas. In short order,
they arranged for funding by Jackie Gleason and the project was
on.

Plans were made and a team was put together to try and locate
the Cave Tony had hidden in avoiding detection from the German
Army.

Before the team could get into the area Russia put the iron hand
on Czechoslovakia and the trip was delayed for 29 years.

Joe Firmage sponsored Ted on a trip to the area in the 90's. He
failed to locate the cave on those trips.

In 2001 The Museum funded a trip for Ted and a helper, Steve
Vilmer to try and locate the cave once again.

Myself and Ted had made a trip back to Colorado to talk to
Tony's only living relative in the United States and to get a
look at the original diary again and have her do more
translation.

With this new information in hand we sent Ted over for a 6 week
investigation to the area.

A week before they where to return home Steve literally fell
into the cave.

Everything mentioned as being left in the cave by Tony was there
as was the markings on the cave walls as described in the diary.

This is and extraordinary opportunity for someone with vision to
be involved in an actual case that could re-write history as we
know it today.

A sponsor will receive full credit for helping in the project
and regular up dates as the cases progress. Now is your chance
to be involved.

Contact the Museum of the Unexplained or Vice President, Larry
Cekander at:

larryroyc.nul

More information is available from Ted Phillips'
Center for Physical Trace Research:

http://cptr.us/tatra.html

Larry Cekander VP/Research Associate,
Ted Phillips Head of Research
Museum of the Unexplained.
Reeds Spring, Missouri
Research-Investigation-Education







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   Nov > Nov 16

                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 46

From: John Hayes <John.nul>
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:39:38 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:19:07 -0500
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 46


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan.nul>
==========================

      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 9, Number 46
November 17, 2004
Editor: Joseph Trainor

E-mail: Masinaigan.nul
Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/


A SHOOTDOWN IN INDIA?

      A MiG-21 jet interceptor of the Indian Air Force
crashed in that country's western desert Monday night,
November 8, 2004, and some Indian researchers think it
might have been shot down by a UFO.
      "A MiG-21 fighter aircraft of the Indian Air Force
crashed near IAF Nal air base in Bikaner on Monday night,
but the pilot ejected safely, official sources" in New
Delhi, India's capital, said on Tuesday, November 9, 2004.
      Bikaner is a large city in Rajasthan state, on the
eastern edge of the Great Indian Desert, located about 210
kilometers (126 miles) southwest of New Delhi.
      "The aircraft was on a routine sortie when it crashed
close to the air base at 9:40 p.m., an IAF spokesman
said."
      "The pilot of the aircraft, Flying Officer S. Mitra,
ejected safely, he added."
      "'No loss of life or injury to any person, or damage
on the ground, has been reported,' he said."
      "He said although a preliminary report suggests
engine failure as the cause of the accident, a Court of
Inquiry has been ordered to probe the case."
      According to Krishnari Bai Dharapurnanda, UFO Roundup
correspondent in India, ufologists there are wondering if
the MiG-21 was shot down by a UFO.
      "Rumours are flying about this incident," Krishnari
Bai reported, adding that some believe the Indian Air
Force picked up a UFO on radar as it was flying south from
the Sutlej River valley in the Himalayas.  The valley has
been the site of many UFO sightings in recent months.
(See UFO Roundup, volume 9, number 43 for October 27,
2004, "Villagers say aliens are building a base in the
Himalayas," page 2.)
      Mitra's MiG-21 was allegedly scrambled at IAF Nal to
intercept the object.  At 9:35 p.m., the Indian pilot
reportedly radioed, "I have the vimana (Hindi for UFO--
J.T.) in sight."
      From this point on, the rumors claim, the MiG-21
underwent a series of cascading systems failures.  First
the targeting system supposedly went off-line, rendering
the air-to-air missiles useless.  Then the electrical
firing system for the aircraft's 20-millimeter cannon
supposedly failed.  Finally, the Mig-21's two jet engines
simultaneously flamed out.
      The pilot then aimed the MiG-21 at the uninhabited
western desert, pulled the toggle and ejected, Krishnari
Bai speculated.
      "This is a very unusual incident," she added, "If
this was just a simple air crash, then why is the IAF
convening a Court of Inquiry?"  (See The Times of India
for November 12, 2004.  Many thanks to Daniel Wilson and
Krishnari Bai Dharapurnanda for this newspaper article.)


UFOs SEEN REPEATEDLY IN
RIDGECREST, CALIFORNIA

      "A bright, circular-shaped flying object was seen
soaring over the skies of the Indian Wells Valley," near
Ridgecrest, California (population 24,927) "late Saturday
evening," November 6, 2004, "startling at least five
eyewitnesses."
      "At around 10:45 p.m., as each of the three friends
new returning from a shared community event" looked on, "a
large object allegedly moving along the western end of the
valley caught their attention."
      "'It was neither a plane nor a rocket,' said long-
time Ridgecrest resident Bonnie Mathis Tuesday evening,"
November 9, 2004, "'It was very bright and diffused color
within the object could be detected upon closer
examination.  Whatever it was, it scared the crap out of
me.'"
      "In the three days since the incident, Mathis said,
she has been able to rule out that this was just a rocket
incident" that "had occurred that night for the lack of
flames or the absence of emergency support.  Nor did she
suspect the object to be a meteor since it was moving too
slowly."
      "'I've seen lots of meteor showers, and this was too
big and too slow to be a meteor,' said Mathis, adding that
the entire sighting lasted about a minute."
      "'My husband was driving the car, so my attention was
on the thing, whatever it was, for the entire time,' she
said, 'Towards the end of its trajectory, it just faded.
It didn't lose its intensity.  It just got smaller until
it crossed the horizon and got out of sight.'"
      "UFO investigator Peter Davenport, director of the
National UFO Reporting Center based in Seattle, Washington
(state--J.T.), said in a telephone conversation Tuesday
that over 100 UFO sightings for the North American
continent had been reported to his organization."
      "Among them was a report from a Newport Beach
(California) resident, which corroborated the Ridgecrest
eyewitnesses' report."
      "The individual described that he had seen a large
bright object moving across the skies Saturday at 10:45
p.m. and quickly made its way over the Pacific Ocean 'at
speeds no man-made object could move,' said Davenport."
      "Jerry Johnson, Mathis' friend, said Tuesday that she
had also witnessed 'a huge bright light moving westward.'"
      "Johnson added that she had perceived a greenish glow
around the object, a report that was corroborated by a
third friend, who produced a statement on conditions of
anonymity."
      "'I've seen lots of meteors in my life, and, at the
time I didn't think it was one, but in hindsight I don't
know what else it could be,' said Johnson."
      "Sgt. John Wheeler, who commanded the Ridgecrest
Police Department Sunday and Tuesday, said yesterday that
no such sighting reports had been filed with the RPD."
      "Naval Air Weapons Station-China Lake public affairs
officer Ron Keck said that Saturday night's sighting came
on the heels of at least three other instances reported by
NUFORC to have occurred in the Mojave Desert since the end
of September 2004."
      On Saturday, September 4, 2004, at 8 p.m., "two
lights were reported moving very swiftly and vertically
through the skies over Red Rock Canyon State Park.
Objects were moving with 90-degree turns, performing
looping and circling aerobatics" and remained in view "for
approximately 15 minutes.  Scared, the witness quickly
left the area, convinced the sighting was neither
satellites nor meteors."
      On Friday, September 17, 2004, at 1 a.m., "two
campers, who were enroute to a camping area east of
Ridgecrest on State Route 178 reported seeing two red
blinking lights circling a single white light right above
their vehicle.  After about five minutes, the light had
begun moving northward at 'an unbelievable speed and
vanished.'"
      On Thursday, October 28, 2004, at 3:35 a.m., "while
traveling northbound, a Ridgecrest resident reported an
orange object three times brighter than Venus to the
northwest of her location, just above the mountains.  As
the witness continued northbound for another quarter of a
mile, he noticed the object had moved behind a cirrus
cloud, at which point 'a large brilliant flash' took
place."
      "When pressing further on his itinerary, the man
reported that this unidentifiable object was hovering in
plain sight 1,000 feet (300 meters) away for about 20 to
30 seconds.  As he looked upon the object, a black dot on
top of it was momentarily apparent.  The witness concluded
that the object 'was of a size, color and speed the likes
of which' he had never seen before."
      Ridgecrest, Cal. is about 140 miles (224 kilometers)
north of Los Angeles.  (Many thanks to Jim Hickman,
executive director of Skywatch International, and Peter
Davenport, director of NUFORC, for this news story.)


CYLINDRICAL UFO SEEN IN
UNION HILL, NORTH CAROLINA

      On Friday, November 5, 2004, at 4:45 p.m., eyewitness
Robert C. "stopped by my sister's house" in Union Hill,
North Carolina "to bring some cat food.  While we were
standing on her front porch, talking, I heard the sound of
a small plane engine nearby, and I looked to see what kind
it was.  The sky that day was crystal clear, the weather
cool, the temperature in the low 50s, with a 10-mile-per-
hour breeze from the west-northwest."
      "When I looked up and to the southwest, I saw what
appeared to be a star.  Totally motionless.  What was
striking about it was that it was still daylight, and
there wasn't a cloud in the sky.  The object had a nimbus
around it like the halo that you see around a full moon in
winter."
      "I pointed it out to my sister, who said, 'Well,
maybe it's a star.'  The sun was still above the horizon,
so I know it wasn't a star.  I watched it for
approximately one minute, and then the nimbus started to
fade."
      "There were power lines in front of her house, and I
was using them to judge whether the object was moving.  It
began to turn slowly towards the south, and I could see
that it was a metallic cylinder, no protuberances, dull in
appearance as it didn't reflect the sun.  It faded away in
the south to the southwest in approximately one minute and
30 seconds."
      "I had a couple of other errands to run, so by the
time I started home, it was full dark.  I live in a rural
area, and I was traveling one of the back roads where
there aren't a lot of houses.  To my right, at treetop
level, I saw a blue flash" at 5:52 p.m.
      "I thought maybe I had seen a night light from a
house hidden in the woods.  I traveled for another three-
quarters of a mile and saw it again.  The road winds
around so I couldn't be sure of the direction I was
looking at.  When I came around a turn, the woods opened
back from the road a little, and I observed a neon blue
orb crossing the road (I went back later and found the
direction to be from west to east--R.C.) at treetop level
and at about the speed of a small plane coming in for a
landing (About stall speed, I'd guess--R.C.)  It was about
the size of a dime at arm's length, and I saw it for about
three seconds before I lost it in the trees."
      "When I got home at 6:13 p.m., I pulled my truck
under the carport.  As I was walking behind it, I looked
to the east, and, just north of east, I saw a star that I
thought was unusual.  I've been an avid sky and aviation
watcher since I was a child, and they just didn't look
right.  It appeared to be a star but it was 'shimmering.'"
      "At first I dismissed it as an atmospheric
distortion, and I started to go into the house, but
something didn't seem right.  So I went into the house and
got my binoculars."
      "As I watched the object, a small private plane came
from the south, traveled behind the object (navigation
lights occluded the object--R.C.), pretty much shooting
down the star theory.  The object appeared to be a
cylinder with blue lights on the right, red lights on the
left.  I couldn't tell if its pulsating appearance came
from rapid rotation or if it was multi-faceted and
blinking.  But even at a distance, it was quite beautiful.
I went back into the house a couple of times as it was so
cold and windy out."
      "The third time I came out, the object was quite
different in appearance.  It was changing magnitude
(dimmer and brighter--R.C.) and had turned a deep red
color.  Then it went back to its first (dull silver)
coloration.  I went back inside, and when I came out, it
was gone."
      "I was looking northeast in the general direction of
(the constellation) Cassiopeia when a bright flash
occurred at 6:33 p.m., and it was much like a lightning
strike close by.  But unlike lightning, it was in a small
section of the sky (two inches at arm's length--R.C.)  The
only thing I could see, for lack of a better term, was a
plasma cloud.  It was pale but distinctive and looked like
an elongated disk, kind of like looking at a spiral nebula
edge-on.  It disappeared almost immediately.  (Email Form
Report)


STAR-LIKE UFO SIGHTED IN
KENTWOOD, MICHIGAN

      On Tuesday, November 9, 2004, at 6:45 p.m., Mark S.
was outdoors in his hometown of Kentwood, Michigan
(population 45,255), five miles (8 kilometers) southeast
of Grand Rapids, when he spotted something strange in the
southern sky.
      "It was an object almost identical to the North Star
(Polaris--J.T.)," Mark reported, "It wasn't in the same
location.  It just had the same characteristics.  This
thing was very high!  It was moving way too fast to be a
plane.  There were no blinking lights.  The entire
sighting lasted from three to six seconds.  On the whole,
it looked like a star going out of sight."
      "I just saw it a few minutes ago!"  (Email Form
Report)


TWO UFOs SIGHTED IN
FORT WORTH, TEXAS

      On Friday, October 29, 2004, during the evening,
Janet Richey was driving on Eighth Street, near Interstate
Highways I-30 and I-35W, in Fort Worth, Texas (population
534,694) when "two big lights that were not blinking or
moving appeared."
      "The bright light on the left moved down in line with
the second light," Janet reported, "The second light on
the right then blinked like a strobe light, then
disappeared."
      "The other light moved along with my car as I turned
south and west," past the Greyhound Trailways bus depot
and the Terrant County Convention Center.  "The object was
outside my left window.  As I turned toward the right, the
object accelerated and moved from the back left of my
window to the front left. It seemed like it was following
me."
      "I parked my car and watched the light.  It did not
move.  I got out of my car and walked behind a building
toward my work facility.  When I came out from behind the
building on the other side, the object was gone."
      "The objects were bright lights.  They did not have
any blinking lights.  They were not planets.  I know what
Venus looks like, and it was not Venus.  They were too
bright and clear.  The objects were not airplanes because
they could remain still and then accelerate quickly.
Their shape is unknown--they were too bright to tell."
(Email Form Report)


MORE EVIDENCE OF WATER
ON PREHISTORIC MARS

      Mars rovers Spirit and Opportunity "continue to
uncover evidence of a watery past on the Red Planet, NASA
scientists say."
      "After months of climbing, the Spirit rover reports
that volcanic ash mixed with groundwater built the hills
near its January (2004) landing site."
      "Investigations by the rover Opportunity inside a
deep crater show water has cracked rocks on the Martian
surface, says mission science chief Steve Squyres of
Cornell University."
      "The rovers landed on Mars ten months ago to look for
signs of water, which scientists say would have had to
exist for life to have ever developed on the planet.
Despite power losses and some glitches, both rovers are
working well, mission controllers say."  (See USA Today
for November 8, 2004, "Mars rovers uncover more water
evidence," page 6D.)



 From the UFO Files...

1927: THE MEN WHO DREAMED
            OF REPTOIDS

      In his book, A Culture of Conspiracy, author Michael
Barkun writes, "In all likelihood, the notion of a shape-
changing serpent race (popularly known as Reptoids--J.T.)
came from the imagination of an obscure pulp-fiction
author, Robert E. Howard (1906-1936)...In August 1929, he
published a story in Weird Tales magazine called 'The
Shadow Kingdom,' in which the evil power was the snake-men
whose adversary, Kull, came from Atlantis."
      Barkun is only partly right about that...as we shall
see in a moment.
      What I find most curious about "The Shadow Kingdom"
is that it came to REH in a dream.  As Howard's
biographer, Lyon Sprague de Camp, points out in his book,
Dark Valley Destiny:The Life of Robert E. Howard, "Of the
three Kull stories that sold in Howard's lifetime, he
(REH) reported that they 'wrote themselves, without
planning on my part.'  He also said he had dreamed them
before he put them on paper.  All this may be true."
      Howard wrote "The Shadow Kingdom" in the spring of
1927, when, at age 21, he was a bookkeeping student at the
Commercial School of Howard Payne College in Texas.  But
he did not sell the story until 1928, and Weird Tales
editor Farnsworth Wright penciled it onto the schedule for
an August 1929 release.
      Yet, unknown to Robert, another American author was
also writing about Reptoids.  Here's a sample:
      "Now for the first time Tarzan was able to obtain a
good view of the snake-men and their equally hideous
mounts.  The conformation of the Horibs was almost
identical to man insofar as the torso and extremities were
concerned.  Their three-toed feet and five-toed hands were
those of reptiles.  The head and face resembled a snake,
but pointed ears and two short horns gave a grotesque
appearance that was at the same time hideous.  The arms
were better proportioned than the legs, which were quite
shapeless.  The entire body was covered with scales,
although those upon the hands, feet and face were so
minute as to give the impression of bare skin, a
resemblance that was further emphasized by the fact that
these portions of the body were a much lighter color,
approximating the shiny dead whiteness of a snake's
belly."
      "They wore a single apron-like garment fashioned from
a piece of very heavy hide, apparently that of some
gigantic reptile.  This garment was really a piece of
armor, its sole purpose being, as Tarzan later learned, to
cover the soft white bellies of the Horibs."
      "Upon the breast of each garment was a strange
device--an eight-pronged cross with a circle in the
center.  Around his waist each Horib wore a leather belt,
which supported a scabbard in which was inserted a bone
knife."
      That passage was from Tarzan at the Earth's Core, a
novel begun in 1927 by Edgar Rice Burroughs (1875-1950)
but not published until 1929.
      At the time Robert E. Howard was dreaming and writing
of Reptoids in Brownwood, Texas, Edgar Rice Burroughs was
in the process of moving his business office to a new
building on Ventura Boulevard in what was about to become
the new town of Tarzana, California.  He hired a new
business manager, Ralph Rothmund, formerly a paymaster at
an iron mine in Hibbing, Minnesota. Rothmund obtained a
dictaphone for Edgar and hired a group of secretaries who
turned their employer's words into finished copy.
      The result was three novels--Tarzan and the Lost
Empire, Tanar of Pellucidar, and a first for Edgar--a
team-up book, Tarzan at the Earth's Core, which brought
Lord Greystoke into the Pellucidar fantasy series.
      Unless he was a reader of Weird Tales, it's unlikely
that Burroughs knew who Robert E. Howard was.  But Robert
knew who Burroughs was.  He was an avid Burroughs fan who
had no fewer than 12 ERB novels in his personal library.
Curiously, most of these had to do with Mars, and REH paid
homage to his mentor Burroughs in his "interplanetary"
novel, Almuric.
      So here they were--REH in Texas and ERB in
California--each unaware of what the other was writing,
and they both came up with Reptoids.  Weird, huh?
      But not half as weird as Burroughs' links to the
occult in his early life.
      Edgar Rice Burroughs was born in Chicago on September
1, 1875, the fifth of six boys born to George Tyler
Burroughs and Mary Evaline Zieger.  The elder Burroughs
was a cavalry officer who fought on the Union side in the
American Civil War, a prominent Republican, a successful
businessman and the inventor of a workable electric-
powered automobile.
(Editor's Comment:  It's a shame that Burroughs'
environmentally-friendly "Electromobile" didn't catch on
when it was introduced at the Chicago World's Fair in
1893.  Unfortunately, the vehicle was too expensive to
build and market compared to gasoline-powered models.)
      "Early in 1891, when an epidemic of influenza broke
out in Chicago," Edgar's "parents sent him to Idaho where
his two older brothers, Harry and George, with a Yale
University classmate named Lew Sweetser, owned a ranch in
Cassia County," 50 miles (80 kilometers) southwest of
Pocatello.
      For a 15-year-old city kid like Edgar, the cowboy
life in Idaho was like a dream come true.  He learned to
rope, brand, ride and handle a pistol.  "Burroughs'
lifelong love of horses and cowboys dates from this
period.  He became an expert bronco-buster and met such
characters as 'Texas Pete,' whom he wrote into his western
novel, The Bandit of Hell's Bend. (1925)
(Editor's Note: Pete had a still on the ranch, which
produced a form of "mountain dew" the older Burroughs boys
dubbed "Old Eli" after their alma mater.)
      It was kind of exciting, too, for Edgar to ride into
Rexburg or Pocatello and catch a glimpse of Butch Cassidy
(birth name: Robert Leroy Parker), the Sundance Kid (birth
name: Harry Longbaugh), Harvey Logan, George "Flat Nose"
Curry, William "News" Carver or some other desperado of
the outlaw Wild Bunch.
      Many readers of Burroughs' "John Carter of Mars"
series have noticed the similarity between "the Martians"
and some of the prehistoric root races Madame Blavatsky
(birth name: Elena Petrovna von Hahn) wrote about in The
Secret Doctrine.  Where and when, they ask, was ERB
exposed to Madame Blavatsky?
      The answer: Idaho in 1891.
      Lewis H. Sweetser, the partner of George and Harry
Burroughs, was an ardent Spiritualist.  Most likely,
Madame Blavatsky's books were part of the ranch library.
"Yale classmate Lewis Hobart Sweetser later became
lieutenant governor of Idaho, business executive, writer
and lecturer.  He authored The Alexander Talisman and The
Inner Voice Reveals," wrote ERB biographer Robert W.
Fenton, "Sweetser for years had been interested in psychic
phenomena and revealed to Harry Burroughs in 1937 that he
had been receiving written messages from his wife, who had
died some years before."
      "In the 1939 Yale Class Record, Harry (Burroughs)
told of his own psychic experiences, which, he said,
included receiving messages from his wife, who had been
killed in an automobile accident."
      You can imagine Mary Zieger Burroughs' surprise in
August 1891 when the front door opened and in walked this
teenager wearing a Stetson hat, black leather vest, Levi
jeans, cowboy boots with spurs and a well-oiled .45
caliber Colt Single Action Army revolver riding low on his
hip.  Lifting his hatbrim, Edgar grinned and said, "Howdy,
Maw!"
      George Burroughs took one look and hollered, "You're
going to Phillips Academy!"
      Although naturally very bright and a voracious
reader, Edgar managed to flunk out of the prestigious prep
school in Andover, Mass. after just one semester.
(Editor's Note:  Edgar's classmate at Phillips Academy was
Hiram Bingham, who discovered the Incan ruins at Machu
Picchu in Peru in 1911 and was later a senator from
Connecticut.)
      "Convinced that his son needed the discipline of
military training," Burroughs sent Edgar to the Michigan
Military Academy at Orchard Lake," near Pontiac, in
September 1892.  After a rough start, Edgar fell under the
influence of the school's commandant, Captain Charles
King.
      Capt. King was an 1866 graduate of the U.S. Military
Academy at West Point, N.Y. and had an outstanding service
record in the Army.  He had served with Gen. George Crook
in "the Sioux War" in Montana in 1876, with Gen. Oliver O.
Howard in the pursuit of the Nez Perce Indians in Oregon
and Idaho in 1877, and was an aide to Gen. Nelson A. Miles
in Arizona in the 1880s.  He was also an author in his own
right.  Between 1880 and his death in 1933, King wrote 60
novels, dealing with the American Civil War and the Old
West, earning the title "America's Kipling."
(Editor's Note: "Sioux" and "Nez Perce" are commonly-used
names for, respectively, the Lakota and Namipu indigenous
peoples of the USA.)
      Inspired by Capt. King, Edgar dreamed of going to
West Point and becoming an officer in the U.S. Army.
Trouble was, to get into the military academy, you had to
be appointed by a member of Congress.  And the Illinois
delegation had already used up its quota of slots.  So
Edgar wrote to his brothers and Lewis Sweetser in Idaho,
asking if he could be appointed as a cadet from that
state.
      Idaho had made the appointment a competition.  Slots
went to the top scorers of a written exam.  Edgar took the
exam with 117 other Idaho teens.  Only the top 14 were
accepted, and Edgar wasn't one of them.
      So Edgar enlisted in the Army and was assigned to B
Troop of the Seventh Cavalry at Fort Grant in southern
Arizona.  Here he became friends with Carson Napier, a
cashiered British Army officer who had served in India and
was starting a new life in the USA.  "Carson
Napier...became the model for the hero of Burroughs'
popular Venus stories, written between 1931 and 1941."
(Editor's Comment:  Does anyone else think Carson was
hiding out in the Arizona desert from his ex-wives?)
      But then "Burroughs suffered severe dysentery and was
sent to the post infirmary where, to his dismay, it was
discovered that he had a heart murmur ( arrythymia--J.T.)
that would disqualify him for an army commission.  He
obtained an honorable discharge and returned to his
brother's cattle ranch in Idaho."
      After trying his hand at a couple of occupations,
Edgar returned to Chicago and went to work for his father.
"Encouraged by a regular salary of $15 per week, he
married his childhood sweetheart, Emma Centennia Hulbert,
in 1900."
      However, economic disaster seemed to catch the young
couple at every turn.
When their Idaho business failed in 1903, they moved to
Salt Lake City, Utah, where Burroughs found work as a
policeman for the Union Pacific Railroad.  "From 1904 to
1910, Burroughs held a succession of temporary jobs; he
was a timekeeper for a construction company, sold
lightbulbs to janitors and candy to drugstores," was an
office manager for Sears, Roebuck & Co. and promoted a
snake-oil medicine, "Alcola," reputed to cure alcoholism,
schizophrenia, psoriasis and Down's syndrome.
      Asked why he had turned to writing, Edgar replied, "I
had a wife and two babies, a combination that does not
work well without money."
      And money Edgar did not have.  He "pawned his wife's
jewelry to buy food, lunching daily on three ginger
snaps."
      However, while Edgar was down and out, at one point
selling pencil sharpeners in Chicago, some very strange
things were happening in the skies of the USA.
      On July 2, 1907, a "torpedo-shaped object" flew over
Burlington, Vermont and exploded over the downtown area.
      On October 25, 1908, a "mysterious airship" was seen
over the town of Ware, Massachusetts.  Five days later,
strange circular objects were sighted hovering over White
River Junction, Vermont.
      On October 31, 1908, undertakers John E. Flynn and
Philip S. Prophett saw a large black spherical object
hovering over a factory in Bridgewater, Massachusetts.
They watched for a couple of hours as the UFO played its
searchlight over the town's streets and buildings and then
flew east towards Plymouth, Mass.
      In July 1909, "a mysterious red light" appeared in
the sky over North Leominster and Princeton, Mass.
      On December 15, 1909, hundreds of people saw a silver
disc hover and fly at various speeds over Marlboro, Mass.
A handful saw the object land on the south shore of nearby
Lake Williams, and one man claimed he had heard
"nonsensical voices" coming from the craft.
      On December 22, 1909, a cigar-shaped object flew over
Willimantic, Connecticut, aiming its bright searchlight at
the downtown buildings.  It was seen by several dozen
witnesses, including Mayor John Shea.
      In January 1910, a very large, cigar-shaped UFO
appeared over Chattanooga, Tennessee and Huntsville,
Alabama.
      Indeed, it was right after this "Flap of 1909," that
Edgar decided to try his hand at writing.  But
surprisingly, it wasn't the Tarzan epic he'd been mulling
over since his student days at Philips Academy.  It was
something else entirely--an adventure set in outer space.
      "It was a Martian romance, replete with dried
riverbeds (and deserts that looked suspiciously like the
terrain around Fort Grant, Arizona--J.T.), the atmosphere
plant, incredible flora and fauna...and a swashbuckling
hero from Virginia named Captain John Carter."  And co-
starring Deejah Thoris, "the most beautiful woman on two
worlds."  (Five if you count Luna, Phobos and Deimos--
J.T.)
      "'Under the Moons of Mars' or A Princess of Mars, as
it was eventually titled, is the tale of a soldier who
falls into a trance in Arizona and wakes up on Mars.  Over
the years, more than a few readers have speculated that
Burroughs' characters and the plot of Princess had come to
him while in a trance of his own."
      As Burroughs biographer John Taliaferro pointed out,
"He never denied that he was a bit odd--he even encouraged
his eccentric image as beneficial to his authorial
mystique.  And there is no doubt that his mind was
unsettled at the time he wrote Princess.  'I had worked
steadily for six years without a vacation,' he said of the
period, 'and for fully half of my working hours of that
time I had suffered tortures from headaches.'  He
attributed his condition to a blow from the head, received
either in Idaho or during his stint as a railroad
policeman" in Utah.
      "Along with the headaches came intense nightmares,
'when I would see figures standing beside my bed, usually
shrouded,' (my emphasis--J.T.) he later revealed in a
letter to the Boston Society of Psychic Research."
      "Eventually the headaches subsided, but the
nightmares never did.  His children and both his wives
gave up counting, but never got used to, the occasions
when he woke them up with his nocturnal thrashings and
fulminations.  Tent and shipmates during World War II said
they were regularly treated to the same alarming
outbursts."
      When I read about the "figures standing beside my
bed, usually shrouded," the alarm bells went off.  In UFO
lore, Reptoids are notorious for wearing voluminous robes
with oversized hoods to conceal their scaly faces
      Was Edgar Rice Burroughs a contactee?
      Much of A Princess of Mars reads like a contactee
memoir, from John Carter closing his eyes in an Arizona
cave and then waking up jaybird-naked on Mars, to the last
scene where John, now inexplicably back on Earth, has a
psychic vision of Deejah Thoris and his hybrid toddler
son, Carthoris, in a Martian city, looking up into the
vastness of space.
      Now, did anyone else we know suffer from these odd
fits of somnambulism that Edgar seems to have had?
      Yes, indeed!  None other than Robert E. Howard, who
was writing about Reptoids at the same time as Edgar in
1927.
      According to L. Sprague de Camp, "Tom Ray Wilson, who
lived in Cross Plains (Texas) until 1924 became another
intimate" of REH.  "As a high school boy, Tom sometimes
drove Dr. (Isaac Mordecai) Howard (Robert's father--J.T.)
on his rounds while the doctor dozed in the back seat of
his car.  From time to time, Bob slept over at Tom's
house, but later Tom reported that he had been scared of
Bob because he always carried a hunting knife and often a
pistol and suffered from nightmares (my emphasis--J.T.).
So severe were these nightmares that Tom used to tie Bob's
toe to the bedpost with a piggin string lest, in his
sleep, he rise up and attack his roommate."
      In addition, Robert witnessed a UFO or "mystery
meteor" at the ranch of his uncle, William Oscar McClung,
in Crystal City, Texas in December 1910, when he was four
years old.  That's about the time that Edgar Rice
Burroughs began writing A Princess of Mars.
      I've been trying to figure out what could have
happened on Earth in 1927 that might have been of interest
to Reptoids or other extraterrestrials.  Charles A.
Lindbergh Jr.'s solo flight across the Atlantic?  Roald
Amundsen's trip to the South Pole?  The first "talking"
motion picture?
      When Al Jolson appeared onscreen and said, "You ain't
seen nothing yet, folks,"  was he referring to the coming
of the Reptoids?  (See the books Tarzan at the Earth's
Core by Edgar Rice Burroughs, Ace Books, New York, N.Y.,
1968, pages 198 and 199; A Culture of Conspiracy by
Michael Barkun, University of California Press, Los
Angeles, Cal., 2003, page 121; Tarzan Forever: The Life of
Edgar Rice Burroughs, Scribner, New York, N.Y., 1999,
pages 39 to 48, 57 to 66, and 231 to 233; The Big Swingers
by Robert W. Fenton, Prentice-Hall, New York, N.Y., 1967,
pages 13, 15, 21, 144 and 145; and Dark Valley Destiny:
The Life of Robert E. Howard by L. Sprague de Camp,
Catherine Crook de Camp and Jane Whittington Griffin,
Bluejay Books, New York, N.Y., 1983, pages 142, 143, 223,
224, 225 and 226.)

      Well, that's it for this week.  Join us next time for
more UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the
planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home-
-UFO Roundup."  See you next time.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2004 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved.  Readers may post news items from UFO
Roundup on their Web sites or in news groups provided that
they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list
the date of issue in which the item first appeared.

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan.nul>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://www.ufoinfo.com/submit/sightings.shtml

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster.nul>

UFOINFO: http://www.ufoinfo.com

Official Archives for UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian
UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine
plus archives of Humanoid Sighting Reports (Albert
Rosales), Filer's Files, Oz Files, UFO News UK.
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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Nov > Nov 16

                                    Irony

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:45:39 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:22:00 -0500
Subject: Irony


'UFO Nut' John Ford - a likely innocent - remains in jail, coming
up on a cruel decade, to protect the reputation of the convicted
criminal, John Powell.


 alienview.nul  -:=A6:-
   www.AlienView.net








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   Nov > Nov 16

                     Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI

From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul>
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:02:54 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:40:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI


Hello Eleanor, Rich, Larry, Simon and all,

Great discussion, and also had to re-read EPR & Bell & Aspect to
try to get it right.

It seems, roughly, that Bell wrote in advance the probabilities
of results _if_ cause of entanglement was "mundane" i.e. local -
light speed or less, via a "hidden variable"; and said any
"violation of his Inequalities" would mean the cause was
non-local (maybe universal) and f.t.l, in line with strict Q.M.
Alain Aspect, followed by others, produced many results
"violating the Inequalities".

[Don't let's forget mainstream science tried to ignore the issue
for about 30 years!]

Here's, just found,) up-to-date interpretation from:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-epr/

The Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen Argument in Quantum Theory May 10
2004 "it would appear from the Bell theorem that Einstein's
strategy of maintaining locality, and thereby concluding that
the quantum description is incomplete, may have fixed on the
wrong horn. Even though the Bell theorem does not rule out
locality conclusively, it should certainly make one wary of
assuming it. On the other hand... one should be wary of adopting
the other horn of the dilemma, affirming that the quantum state
descriptions are complete and "therefore" that the theory is
nonlocal."

And, astonishingly:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-entangle/

Quantum Entanglement and Information AUG 13 2001 "The
explanation favoured by Deutsch and others... roughly, is that
an entangled state of the sort that arises in the quantum
computation of a function, which represents a linear
superposition over all possible arguments and corresponding
values of the function, should be understood as a manifestation
of parallel computations in different worlds."

That last shows how far establishment science is willing to go
to avoid (or avoid publicly admitting) a reasonable conclusion:
that there is a universal f.t.l force, and that it can be seen
(and invoked), probably by gyroscopic "equivalence experiment"
(Gravity-B Probe), and by entanglement experiment.

Gravity-B is running now - but don't hold your breath.

Cheers
Ray D

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Perceptions" http://www.perceptions.couk.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






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   Nov > Nov 17

                          Re: UFO Webcam - LeClair

From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:49:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 06:53:37 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Webcam - LeClair


>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers -
>Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 07:25:01 -0500
>Subject: UFO UpDate: UFO Webcam

>Source: BBC Northeast Wales Weird Guide

http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/northeast/guides/weird/ufos/pages/dobshill_ufo.shtml

>11-06-03

>UFO Webcam

>There have been numerous close encounters in the vicinity of
>this highway webcam so keep a look-out overhead. If you see
>something, scroll over the photo and click the email icon to
>mail it to us at wales.northeast.nul

Too bad the web cam is shooting the road and not much sky. Good
idea though.

I been wanting to do sky watches of late but it is freezing
where I live. This doesn't always stop me, but it is very
painful to do. Web-cams make a nice substitute.








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   Nov > Nov 17

                    Additions To The WHY? Files 11-15-04

From: Geoff Richardson <geoff.nul>
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:44:16 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 07:03:02 -0500
Subject: Additions To The WHY? Files 11-15-04


There have been a number of updates and additions at "The WHY?
Files", including : Glenn Campbell briefly discusses Area 51 and
Bob Lazar (2 Audio files), files added to Abductions, Black
Triangles etc.. Too many to list here.

See full list of recent updates at:

http://www.thewhyfiles.net/whatsnew.htm


Geoff Richardson
www.thewhyfiles.net









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   Nov > Nov 17

                Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term -

From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:13:22 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 07:05:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term -


>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:09:09 +0000 (GMT)
>Subject: Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term

<snip>

>Furthermore, your questioning of the need for scientific
>involvement in ufology clearly marks you out as "not one of us",
>for you cannot see the light. Scientific involvement will lead
>to salvation, no, hold on, that's not a pc word either, err it
>will lead to... darn and dam. What will it lead to?


More clutter, yet more acceptance, more answers, yet more
questions. Some new ones and some old ones. Finally, a push
toward the governmeny to release alien-related info. - bodies,
wreckage etc.







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   Nov > Nov 17

                Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - LeClair

From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:24:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 07:07:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - LeClair


>From: Simon Hicks <slh.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:25:03 +0800
>Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI

>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 14:16:59 -0800
>>Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI

>>>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:49:11 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI

><snip>

>>>As well as Bell's experiment which indicated that quantum
>>>particles travel instantaneously, over vast distances.

>>Unless I have this very wrong, it is certain entangled
>>_properties_ of particles that propagate faster than light. I
>>refer to entities like 'spin'. The particles themselves stay
>>put, or travel at ordinary luminal/subluminal speeds.

>I am at best an "armchair physicist" i.e. I have been reading a
>couple of texts on the history of physics recently and that is
>the most I have done in the field since high school. So, not
>overly qualified.

>However, from what I have read I would agree with your comment.

>>I can't fault Shostak for his statement above. His other
>>arguments are a separate issue.

>It is my understanding that Einstein included information as
>being restricted to light speed - hence his description of
>quantum entanglement as being "spooky" because information about
>the state of one entangled particle is instantaneously
>"transmitted" (this may be an erroneous description but it is
>the best I can do to describe the action) to the other particle,
>regardless of their distance from each other.

<snip>

Eistein's idea's imply that nothing that travels slower than
light can travel up to or faster than light. Tacyhons may exist,
and they don't violate Einstein's ideas. Something could be born
faster than our light. It will seem other wordly though. And in
a sense, might be.

From what I've learned, there is currently 2 possibilities.
Faster than light information is being sent, or the seamless
whole idea. Seamless whole explains what is observed as faster
than light behavior without violating any of Einstein's
theories.







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   Nov > Nov 17

             Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:58:58 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 07:11:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term - Hatch


>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:09:09 +0000 (GMT)
>Subject: Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term

>>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 11:18:00 +0000 (GMT)
>>Subject: Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term

<snip>

>>I still fail to understand the need for science and scientist
>>to get involved in UFO's and ET?

<snip>

>>Folk enjoy what they do and are but it seems you like to be
>>over critical and derive your enjoyment in that fashion. Why
>>is that?

>>Why do we have to prove beyond a doubt the existance of UFOs
>>and ET anyway. We all get lots of pleasure not doing so as,
>>probably, does ET.

>>Most folk who put forward evidence of UFOs and ET are jumped
>>on from a great height so most do not bother to do so
>>anymore, me included.

>>I will read UFO/ET books though if they are written in a way I
>>personally find 'gripping'.

>You are on the wrong List. Talk and opinions like the above are
>heresy here.

>You see, you want to have fun. You want to enjoy ufology as an
>enquiring, honest human being. You simple minded, naive fool.

>Serious ufology is for serious people who desire to be taken,
>errr, seriously. Yet they cannot be taken seriously because they
>propogate a subject that isn't serious. Yet, they wish to make it
>so. Comments like yours just get in the way. Please refrain from
>making any more observations like the above.

>In future, if posting any further message to this List, avoid
>the following words or phrases;

>Synchronisity
>Sedona
>lien bodies
>Life on Mars
>New Ageism
>Annuki
>reptoids
>Hollow earth
>Stargate  etc.

>These are not acceptable words and your usage of them is likely
>to result in you "being jumped on from a great height."

>Furthermore, your questioning of the need for scientific
>involvement in ufology clearly marks you out as "not one of us",
>for you cannot see the light. Scientific involvement will lead
>to salvation, no, hold on, that's not a pc word either, err it
>will lead to... darn and dam. What will it lead to?


Thank you Col and Stuart (possibly others)

You have clarified your position on these matters much better
than I would have. Instead of me just guessing, you pretty much
spelled it out; UFOs as entertainment etc.

There are numerous forums for paranormal matters, many or most
completely unhampered by pretentions to logic or scientific
method. I hope that UpDates does not become one of those,
UpDates is rare.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch









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   Nov > Nov 17

                 Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:54:58 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 07:16:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Hatch


>From: Simon Hicks <slh.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:25:03 +0800
>Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI

>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 14:16:59 -0800
>>Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI

<snip>

>>>As well as Bell's experiment which indicated that quantum
>>>particles travel instantaneously, over vast distances.

>>Unless I have this very wrong, it is certain entangled
>>_properties_ of particles that propagate faster than light. I
>>refer to entities like 'spin'. The particles themselves stay
>>put, or travel at ordinary luminal/subluminal speeds.

>I am at best an "armchair physicist" i.e. I have been reading a
>couple of texts on the history of physics recently and that is
>the most I have done in the field since high school. So, not
>overly qualified.

<snip>

>It is my understanding that Einstein included information as
>being restricted to light speed - hence his description of
>quantum entanglement as being "spooky" because information about
>the state of one entangled particle is instantaneously
>"transmitted" (this may be an erroneous description but it is
>the best I can do to describe the action) to the other particle,
regardless of their distance from each other.

>Subsequently, Einstein was proven wrong when it came to
>information being restricted to FTL travel - as you eluded to in
>your post - as a result of the now numerous experiments that
>have demonstrated the validity of quantum entanglement.

>Therefore, it seems to me that there is the possibility of
>information from distant places being able to travel faster than
>light (instantaneously in actual fact). I guess at this point of
>time we haven't got a handle on how to access this information
>(some Remote Viewers may dispute this) - but more advanced
>civilisations (if they are out there) may.

>But we do know that information can travel FTL as is
>demonstrated thru quantum entanglement. Hopefully it wont be too
>long before we understand the mechanics of this phenomenon so
>that we can tap into it's potential (and Seth will have a brand
>new toy to play with).

>As far as a concept involving quantum entanglement for
>communication purposes is concerned, you may find the following
>link of interest.

>http://p2pnet.net/story/2927


Hello Simon:

My best understanding of this is that

1 Particles, anything with mass, cannot travel FTL.

2 Massless particles (photons..) travel AT the speed of light,
 perhaps of necessity.

3 Useful information can _not_ travel FTL.

How is this so, in view of Entanglement, which _is_ now commonly
accepted by physics?

It is particle 'spin', a quantum _property_ of two photons (or
whatever) that becomes entangled, rather than the entire
particle.

If I have this right, Spin is random and indeterminate
(undecided) until it is observed. If you observe the spin of a
particle, you force it into one of two states, spin 'up' or spin
'down'. Nobody can predict which of up or down will show.

Having done so, and if another particle is 'entangled', the spin
of THAT particle is instantaneously affected. .. I think it
assumes the opposite spin from the first particle / photon, not
sure of that.

In any case, a 'sender' will generate a series of random ups and
downs, (or ones and zeros if you prefer). Any receiver will get
a corresponding (but inverted) series of downs and ups (zeros
and ones).

Now, try and imagine sending a message that way.

Since no useful information is transmitted, Einstein is _not_
refuted! The Spooky Action at a Distance is still there, but the
strange otherworldly realm of the quantum prevents us, as if by
some hidden law, from making any use of it so far. I sincerely
wish it were otherwise.

The link you kindly gave above leads eventually to the Colossal
Storage Corp. page here:

http://colossalstorage.net/home.htm

Covered with US patent numbers, references to all sorts of
universities and scientists, the highly webmastered graphics,
and of course the appeal "We are actively looking for customers,
venture capital..." suggest a degree of caution to say the
least.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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   Nov > Nov 17

                      Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON? - Hicks

From: Simon Hicks <slh.nul>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:55:33 +0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 07:17:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON? - Hicks


>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:42:01 -0600
>Subject: Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON?

>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 07:53:23 -0800
>>Subject: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON?

>>I saw Dan Ackroyd on Live With Regis And Kelly - yes I admit
>>watching to it. In the segment he mentioned doing something with
>>MUFON, but I didn't catch all of it.

>>Can anyone enlighten me as to his involvement?

>Ackroyd is a huge supporter and lifetime member of MUFON.

>http://mufon.com/akroyd.htm


I am sure he has done a video or two with David Sereda as well:

http://www.ufonasa.com/








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   Nov > Nov 17

              Re: UFO Programme 'Panic' Gripped Ministry - Pope

From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 02:01:00 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 07:21:05 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Programme 'Panic' Gripped Ministry - Pope


>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers - >
>Date: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 12:17 PM
>Subject: UFO UpDate: UFO Programme 'Panic' Gripped Ministry

>Source: BBC News UK Edition

> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2826133.stm

>11-06-03

>UFO Programme 'Panic' Gripped Ministry
>By Dominic Casciani

>BBC News Online at the Public Record Office

>The truth may be out there but in 1972 the Ministry of Defence
>was agonising about a televised debate on UFOs, fearing it would
>encourage the British public to believe in little men from outer
>space.

>Documents released at the Public Record Office reveal official
>anxiety as to what would happen if the Royal Air Force took part
>in a BBC programme about unidentified flying objects.

>On one hand they feared they would fuel UFO hysteria - but on
>the other hand they feared conspiracy theorists would have a
>field day if they refused to take part in the show.

<snip>

We had a very similar debate in 1994, with a Network First ITV
documentary entitled "UFO UK". On balance, we felt the potential
benefits of taking part (an open approach might have defused
suggestions of a cover-up) outweighed the danger that our
participation would generate numerous crank calls and letters.

I duly took part and - after having been media trained in
various interview skills - became one of the few MOD desk
officers to have appeared on television, representing the
Department officially. This was normally the job of Press
Officers, but it was felt that questions might focus on specific
cases to such an extent that only the person having conducted
the investigation would be able to deal confidently with the
specifics of a particular incident.

The difficulty we ran into was consistency. Word got out that
we'd done this programme, and we were duly approached by the
producers of "Strange But True?". As far as I recall, we
declined to take part, leading to accusations of inequality of
treatment.

The relationship between any government UFO project and the
media, public and ufologists is fraught with difficulty. This
has always been the case. Ruppelt's "The Report on Unidentified
Flying Objects" illustrates some of the issues very well. Little
has changed.


Best wishes,

Nick Pope








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   Nov > Nov 17

                     Dr. John Mack Accident Prosecution

From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:39:51 +0000 (GMT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 07:28:09 -0500
Subject: Dr. John Mack Accident Prosecution


Yesterday, November 16th. was the first court date for the
appearance of the driver involved in the fatal accident
concerning Dr. Mack.

No charges were brought yet and the driver was not named. The
police strongly prefer that he is not named until charges are
brought. His identity is known however and he is believed to be
a 50 year old Chezch national.

He was remanded on bail again until January 11th. pending Crown
Prosecution Service (CPS) advice.

The CPS is the body in the UK responsible for bringing
prosecutions. They work hand in hand with the police. I must
stress that what follows is pure speculation.

Given it is over 6 weeks since the accident, and even in the UK
blood sample tesing doesn't take that long, then one can only
guess the reasons for the delay in bringing charges.

It may be that the circumstances of the accident are complicated
and require further legal consideration. It might possibly be
that the CPS are trying to go for a Dangerous Driving charge
which is a more difficult charge to bring and which considers
the element of intent.

I'm afraid the UK judicial process is the same as pretty much
elsewhere when it comes to speed and it is a case of playing a
waiting game. We'll get there.


Stuart Miller







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             Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 05:49:53 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 07:32:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term - Kaeser


>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:09:09 +0000 (GMT)
>Subject: Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term

>>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 11:18:00 +0000 (GMT)
>>Subject: Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term

>>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:54:44 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term

<snip>

>>I still fail to understand the need for science and scientist
>>to get involved in UFO's and ET?

>>Hasn't science and technology made enough mess of our planet
>>via capitast function to disregard them altogether? Who gave
>>us the atom bomb so we could blow each other to smithereens?

>>UFOs and ET are folklaw with ET furthering this belief in
>>humans because they do not openly reveal themselves.
>>Therefore if we want to have sensationalism why are you a
>>critic of this?

>>Folk enjoy what they do and are but it seems you like to be
>>over critical and derive your enjoyment in that fashion. Why
>>is that?

>>Why do we have to prove beyond a doubt the existance of UFOs
>>and ET anyway. We all get lots of pleasure not doing so as,
>>probably, does ET.

>>Most folk who put forward evidence of UFOs and ET are jumped
>>on from a great height so most do not bother to do so
>>anymore, me included.

>>I will read UFO/ET books though if they are written in a way I
>>personally find 'gripping'.

>You are on the wrong List. Talk and opinions like the above are
>heresy here.

>You see, you want to have fun. You want to enjoy ufology as an
>enquiring, honest human being. You simple minded, naive fool.

>Serious ufology is for serious people who desire to be taken,
>errr, seriously. Yet they cannot be taken seriously because they
>propogate a subject that isn't serious. Yet, they wish to make it
>so. Comments like yours just get in the way. Please refrain from
>making any more observations like the above.

>In future, if posting any further message to this List, avoid
>the following words or phrases;

>Synchronisity
>Sedona
>alien bodies
>Life on Mars
>New Ageism
>Annuki
>reptoids
>Hollow earth
>Stargate
>etc.

>These are not acceptable words and your usage of them is likely
>to result in you "being jumped on from a great height."

>Furthermore, your questioning of the need for scientific
>involvement in ufology clearly marks you out as "not one of us",
>for you cannot see the light. Scientific involvement will lead
>to salvation, no, hold on, that's not a pc word either, err it
>will lead to... darn and dam. What will it lead to?

Hi Stuart,

I think we'll have to nominate you for gate keeper..... <g>

In the end it all depends on what your goal in ufology is. If
you're really here because you're just curious and like the
subject, that's great. However, this all began as a quasi
scientific enquiry and some of the "old timers' in the crowd
would like to keep that focus.

Let me add that this 'List' is not a scientific List, per se. I
believe the subjects listed above are all fair game for
discussion, and I'm sure that Errol wouldn't want to limit
anyone's journey of self-discovery.


Steve








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   Nov > Nov 17

             Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB -

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 11:24:48 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 07:37:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB -


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 07:53:40 -0600
>Subject: Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 00:07:16 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB

>>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 07:53:06 -0800
>>>Subject: Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB

>>>There has been an amazing barrage of drivel on this List the
>>>last few days or weeks; rods, orbs, flying saucer parts... I
>>>forget what else. Cydonia?

<snip>

>>>Meanwhile, Greg pointed out an article from the Dallas Morning
>>>News: Excess methane on Mars! That is way more interesting. It
>>>at least suggests the possibility of Martian microbes. Simple
>>>bacteria maybe.... But! _If_ they can be proved to exist, it
>>>would be the first extraterrestrial life ever discovered!

>>It proves that they have cows on Mars.

My bad joke. Cows emit methane promiscuously; therefore... well,
you get the idea.

>>>So. Go ahead weenies, catch rods and orbs on videos when
>>>specimens should go into a net and onto the microscope slide.
>>>Drag out Cydonia, Aztec, space alien bodies on ice and the rest
>>>of it until you drive away the last sensible people willing to
>>>look at UFO matters objectively. Keep it up and you may have the
>>>whole tent to yourselves.

>>Amen, brother!

>Are 'cows', of some type, on Mars, _that_ difficult to accept?
>total Ufological justification is in the space covered by a
>grain of sand held at arms length, dudes! Behind that grain of
>sand are not just millions of stars, but billions of galaxies.
>And then there's the *time* involved. If the thought of all that
>'time' and 'space' and 'surface area' - where anything has
>happened, is happening, or will happen - doesn't buckle your
>knees, or justify the interest of the lettered curious,
>you're not holding your mouth right. <g>

>Again, I think you _true_ gentlemen miss the broad side of the
>barn by a sizable fraction of a parsec. That "tent" you allude
>to is the information void extant, and it will fill up with
>bodies complete with the courage, heart, or lack of good sense
>to go in there (in most cases). That persons you would _want_ to
>go in there are reluctant to do so is not the REMOTEST fault of
>the persons already in. They are merely an excuse for timidity,
>self-concern, and what some might call a lack of bravery.

<snip>

>Airily indicating that it is only the preponderance of "fruits
>and nuts (not your words)" which preclude appropriate
>participation of your preferred persons is, frankly, putting the
>cart before the horse. There's an irresistible vacuum on the
>inside of the "tent," boys, that is going to draw persons, such
>as myself, inside, as I can afford a lack of concern about such
>relative concepts as reputation, credibility, tenure, or even
>base employment. I just want the truth, as do you, as do many of
>us.

>What is that filter that keeps the "preferred person" out,
>guys? That's what should draw your attention. You would blame
>the special Ed student in the classroom for the lack of quality
>content in that classroom. The fault actually lies with the
>administration encouraging the 'classroom' to needlessly
>precipitate or generate, not providing for quality content and
>educators _in_ the tent or classroom, and, horrifically,
>actively punishing the preferred persons with the nads to enter
>the tent or classroom, at all. There's the enemy, because it
>makes _itself_ the enemy.

>It's not the fruits and nuts. It's allowing the needless
>generation of fruits and nuts out of whiny timidity, lack of
>individual resolve, and intellectual complacency. The bad
>working passionately while the good lack all resolve, and what
>foul beast slouches off to Bethlehem to be born? Fruits and nuts
>are a result, not a cause.

>It's about here, I feel, that a heartfelt "Amen" is more
>appropriate. Verily.


Friend Lehmberg,

We are talking about two sides of the same coin. Both of our
propositions are true, and one does not excuse the other. I have
been outspokenly critical of the cowardly scientists, but not
- important distinction - of scientific method (which many
scientists fail to practice). The fruitcakes ignore science
altogether, preferring to shoot from the hip and violate all
logic and common sense. Figuratively speaking, I prefer the New
York Times to the National Enquirer any day.

Of course scientists are negligent, but it is easy to see many
economic and social reasons why, including the behavior of the
`fruits and nuts' that makes it very difficult for scientists
to plunge in without receiving the sneering ridiicule of
uninformed colleagues. Recent case in point: the Rockefeller
panel that had the audacity to suggest that UFOs required more
scientific study; so ridiculed that they began backing away from
their very conservative position.

And let's not forget another significant contributor (there is
plenty of blame to go around): the limp, lame news media.
Whatever became of serious investigative reporting? I am not
referring here to sensational criminal trials and pop tart
shenanigans. Very serious scientific, political, and social
issues are out there badly in need of attention. The news media
of any consequence have badly missed the boat about UFOs. I have
some strong comments relative to all this in my report on the
1966-1967 UFO wave published by the Fund for UFO Research.


 - Dick








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                       Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON? - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 11:27:32 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 07:39:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON? - Hall


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 07:53:23 -0800
>Subject: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON?

>Fellow Listerions,

>I saw Dan Ackroyd on Live With Regis And Kelly - yes I admit
>watching to it. In the segment he mentioned doing something with
>MUFON, but I didn't catch all of it.

>Can anyone enlighten me as to his involvement?

>Thanks,

>Frank

Frank,

Last time I looked at the MUFON web site:

www.mufon.org

Ackroyd's picture and the story were there.


 - Dick








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   Nov > Nov 17

                      Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON? - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 07:28:53 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 07:47:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON? - Kaeser


>From: Simon Hicks <slh.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:55:33 +0800
>Subject: Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON?

>>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:42:01 -0600
>>Subject: Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON?

<snip>

>>Ackroyd is a huge supporter and lifetime member of MUFON.

>>http://mufon.com/akroyd.htm

>I am sure he has done a video or two with David Sereda as well:

>http://www.ufonasa.com/

To my knowledge, Dan Ackroyd has not actually been involved in
any UFO related documentaries, but I certainly could be wrong.
He is a Hollywood figure that expressed an interest in the
genre, and MUFON was very glad to bring him into the fold. He
bring his interest and stature to the field, but not any
specific expertise that I'm aware of.

I think it's great that he wants to be involved in the genre,
and I hope his support will help the field. On the other hand,
is the involvement of a Hollywood figure going to lend real
credibility to the subject as a serious area of study? It
certainly could help MUFON in attracting a few additional "Field
Investigators", but it's not likely to have a broader impact.


Steve








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   Nov > Nov 17

                      Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON? - Warren

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 07:26:40 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:16:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON? - Warren


>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:42:01 -0600
>Subject: Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON?

>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 07:53:23 -0800
>>Subject: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON?

>>Fellow Listerions,

>>I saw Dan Ackroyd on Live With Regis And Kelly - yes I admit
>>watching to it. In the segment he mentioned doing something with
>>MUFON, but I didn't catch all of it.

>>Can anyone enlighten me as to his involvement?

>Ackroyd is a huge supporter and lifetime member of MUFON.

>http://mufon.com/akroyd.htm

>Terry

Terry, Et Al,

Thanks Terry, I was aware of the membership; however, Ackroyd
was alluding to some "specific project" in conjunction with
MUFON; I believe he said it was "InterNet related."


Frank








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   Nov > Nov 17

                      Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON? - Hicks

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 07:49:29 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:13:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON? - Hicks


>From: Simon Hicks <slh.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:55:33 +0800
>Subject: Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON?

>>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:42:01 -0600
>>Subject: Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON?

<snip>

>>Ackroyd is a huge supporter and lifetime member of MUFON.

>>http://mufon.com/akroyd.htm

>I am sure he has done a video or two with David Sereda as well:

>http://www.ufonasa.com/

Simon, Et Al,

Thanks Simon! I wasn't aware of this very interesting web-site.
I wonder if this what what Ackroyd was alluding to.


Frank








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   Nov > Nov 17

             Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 08:05:38 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:16:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB -


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 11:24:48 +0000
>Subject: Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 07:53:40 -0600
>>Subject: Re: Alien Corpses Seen Near Wright Patterson AFB

<snip>

>We are talking about two sides of the same coin.

We would be, sir, if I was talking about that coin. But my
attention is dragged to pocket that coin finds itself in, or
even better the hand that enters that pocket for that coin.

>Both of our
>propositions are true, and one does not excuse the other. I have
>been outspokenly critical of the cowardly scientists, but not
>- important distinction - of scientific method (which many
>scientists fail to practice).

Well - most, being untrained, fail to practice science properly,
but that's not the point, really. Cowardly scientists are not
the issue either. All these guys are cowardly, timid, or
reluctant... for a reason. That's the issue. What (who) keeps
the giggle factor alive? We could also discuss how limited and
parochial science is, even inadequate, sometimes given its
adherence to a presumption of commonality in 'reality' and the
shortfalls of five very limited and narrow senses. Science, as
good a tool as it is or can be, still leaves a lot (hell, most)
without any overlap of explanation or rudimentary theory... big
cracks. The UFOs are in the cracks, hell, chasms of our
facilitated, systemic, and enforced ignorance.

>The fruitcakes ignore science
>altogether, preferring to shoot from the hip and violate all
>logic and common sense. Figuratively speaking, I prefer the New
>York Times to the National Enquirer any day.

You're still talking about a behavior that is a 'result' of
unrelieved ignorance and not a 'cause' of that ignorance. And
the Enquirer (another result not a cause) not infrequently
scoops the Times on major stories, one of the things that keeps
it's readership so high for so many years. No, sir - I don't
subscribe. [g].

Most of the persons I know interested in UFOs are not
scientists, and might shoot from the hip given they don't have
time to do anything else, but they don't violate 'all' logic and
common sense. In these accelerating times 'logic' seems an easy
rubric of authoritarians and 'common sense' becomes as relative
as anything else in an Einsteinian universe. These persons are
dealing with daily illogic and abject senselessness from
'government' and 'church' to a degree never before seen, I
think, and are dealing with it the best they can. Betrayed by
the education system extant, who are feeling the insentient heat
of the preceding two, these persons dismissed as "fruitcakes"
make their _own_ tools, Sir.

Being derisive of them is just like being derisive of Black
people and their use of Ebonics, when they were forced onto
their 'reservations' across the tracks, encapsulated to the
point where they are, of course, going to evolve their own
language patterns... and then be ridiculed for same.

>Of course scientists are negligent, but it is easy to see many
>economic and social reasons why,

...And so continue to facilitate same in an attack that misses
the target of the real issue in that easiness?

> including the behavior of the
>`fruits and nuts' that makes it very difficult for scientists
>to plunge in without receiving the sneering ridiicule of
>uninformed colleagues.

I think you're misplacing the horse in its relationship to the
cart, again, Sir. First there was the intellectual vacuum
fretfully avoided by scientists and leadership and then there
were the "fruits and nuts" of needs sucked into that vacuum.

>Recent case in point: the Rockefeller
>panel that had the audacity to suggest that UFOs required more
>scientific study; so ridiculed that they began backing away from
>their very conservative position.
>

Pussies! The ridicule is suspect. Perhaps it's time to show a
little stone, and put the hammer down. Persons who ridicule just
don't know what they're talking about. That ignorance might be
exposed at every opportunity. I think there would be less of it
if it was.

>And let's not forget another significant contributor (there is
>plenty of blame to go around): the limp, lame news media.

Please suffer my poetic explication at the end. That's the
hijacked mainstream I'm always ranting about. What's (Who's)
hijacked the mainstream?

>Whatever became of serious investigative reporting? I am not
>referring here to sensational criminal trials and pop tart
>shenanigans.

...Seems this is more mechanism for the foggily insentient
status-quo.

>Very serious scientific, political, and social
>issues are out there badly in need of attention.

Amen - and the worst are passionate while the best lack
courageous resolve. It's what happens when you punish positive
behavior (MacDonald?) and reward negative behavior (Klass!)?

>The news media
>of any consequence have badly missed the boat about UFOs.

They don't miss the boat - they don't even care to walk down to
the dock!

>I have
>some strong comments relative to all this in my report on the
>1966-1967 UFO wave published by the Fund for UFO Research.


Have you got a URL for that, sir? And please, call me Alfred.
 Oh hell, _you_ can call me Al! <g>


Faux Mainstreams
by Alfred Lehmberg
www.AlienView.net

Let's consider now the mainstream, thought reflective and
sincere, our limit on bad thinking - a buffer from our fear.
Supposed a mediation, a distillation of the facts, it's
portrayed as logical - the cure for"fakes and hacks". It's been
sold as medicine, protection from the fringe, the unwashed and
the ignorant, the deluded and unhinged.

It's the view that most will hold... because it is 'official'.
Other views are ridiculed, so, implode with their dismissal.
It's opposed to other views, which fade in sad distraction as
the mainstream is a jealous foe and a master of detraction! It
will leave no stone unturned to keep its upper hand, and many
that must challenge it are cursed, betrayed, or damned.

It owns the eyes and ears, we have, with which we watch our
day, and what's perceived depends upon the values it portrays.
But it pretends the common sense, the middle of the road, the
sober and the rational, and what, at last, sells soap. Of needs
I am suspicious of the track that it would take, the positions
it's presuming, and the point it seems to make.

And it's a point that satisfies... the folks with all the
'money' (?), those owners of the eyes and ears, which seems a
little funny. The mainstream should reflect a mean, an average
we could use to find our way from day to day - that path of
least abuse (?), but it's in fact duplicitous and hobbled by its
bias... which is prosecuted merrily by a few who would deny us.

"Deny us what?", some smirk and sneer (officious and
complacent). Well... deny us well nigh everything, you less
than perspicacious! We're denied a real world, with 'real'
people leading. We're denied the oversight of oversight that's
needed. We're denied the real deal on what our actions cost, on
who must pay for us to play, a measure for our loss. We are sold
a bill of goods, we're led by turgid glands, and we don't get
the pictures that occur in other lands, so we're denied a
picture of the way things really are. We're denied reality!
Now, isn't that bizarre!

Don't pretend to fool yourself the mainstream acts for you, the
hapless individual who is looking for some truth. It does in
fact mistrust you and will punish you, you know? It's a buttress
in the service of corrupted status quos. There is, in fact,
corruption of a type that startles you when you find it in the
fabric of existence, this is true. It's a cunning contravention
by a clan of psychopaths who support it with a covetous
persistence, not for laughs.

And it won't care that 'Christians' are allowed to prey on kids,
or keep the crooked cops corralled when up to their old tricks.
It is unaffected by injustice we endure... as the ENRONs of the
business world collude their bull manure. It is this bogus
mainstream that provides us all the pap that the talking heads
are drooling from their storage bins of crap. It's unimpressed
that children die, well up in to the millions! It shall not
see a "Death Row" as a place for black civilians. It won't admit
to slavery, and it won't admit to graft, and it won't admit that
it's remiss by practicing its craft.

The mainstream's not the mainstream when it won't reflect the
views of the people it confuses with an obfuscation's ruse! It
cannot be a mainstream if dismissing UFOs, as it's eighty in a
hundred that are thinking "someone knows." Our mainstream's a
betrayer of the truth that most would seek! The mainstream's
made the lap dog of some grand 'conspir-cracy'?

Our mainstream has been hijacked by some psychopathic thieves
that are busy with their passion as they prosecute their need.
It won't reflect the real mean; it means instead to make the
'mean'. And that is like a mirror made to fudge upon reflection,
where one can't see the blemishes one might find on close
inspection - where one perceives the fairest skin, no need to
wash ones face, and so suffers rot and blemishes one would view
with some distaste.


alienview.nul -:=A6:-
www.AlienView.net









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   Nov > Nov 17

                      Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON? - Warren

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 08:15:34 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:18:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON? - Warren


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 07:28:53 -0500
>Subject: Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON?

>>From: Simon Hicks <slh.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:55:33 +0800
>>Subject: Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON?

>>>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:42:01 -0600
>>>Subject: Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON?

><snip>

>>>Ackroyd is a huge supporter and lifetime member of MUFON.

>>>http://mufon.com/akroyd.htm

>>I am sure he has done a video or two with David Sereda as well:

>>http://www.ufonasa.com/

Steven, Et Al,

>To my knowledge, Dan Ackroyd has not actually been involved in
>any UFO related documentaries, but I certainly could be wrong.

In perusing Serada's site, it appears that Ackroyd has lent his
voice (literally) to one or more of videos offered there.

>He is a Hollywood figure that expressed an interest in the
>genre, and MUFON was very glad to bring him into the fold. He
>bring his interest and stature to the field, but not any
>specific expertise that I'm aware of.

Ackroyd, ooops "AYKROYD" (just realized I have been mis-spelling
his name) is a very intelligent and articulate man, and perhaps
his pro-UFO stance, along with his public persona will be his
contribution to the field.

>I think it's great that he wants to be involved in the genre,
>and I hope his support will help the field. On the other hand,
>is the involvement of a Hollywood figure going to lend real
>credibility to the subject as a serious area of study?

It didn't seem to hurt politics... or did it?

>It certainly could help MUFON in attracting a few additional "Field
>Investigators", but it's not likely to have a broader impact.

>Steve

Now that I am spelling his name correctly I believe Dan was
referencing his upcoming DVD, "Dan Aykroyd Unplugged On UFOs."
James Neff reviews it here:


http://www.rense.com/general58/unplg.htm

Frank











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   Nov > Nov 18

               Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Dickenson

From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:08:26 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 05:53:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Dickenson


>From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:24:51 -0500
>Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI

>Eistein's idea's imply that nothing that travels slower than
>light can travel up to or faster than light. Tacyhons may exist,
>and they don't violate Einstein's ideas. Something could be born
>faster than our light. It will seem other wordly though. And in
>a sense, might be.

Hi Aaron,

Definitely think you're right, from all evidence so far -

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/oct/m31-007.shtml

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/nov/m16-024.shtml

That is, whatever enables entanglement (and "gravity", see van
Flandern's "Speed of Gravity") is a faster-than-light force or
phenomenon which cannot be made of "matter" - the stuff of
protons and `electrons' that we're made of.

However the ftl force evidently can interact with protonic
matter. In fact the evidence is getting stronger that this
universal ftl force is that which holds "matter" together, and
enforces "gravity" - a shadow in that force.

Unfortunately GR and QM theoreticians have had to make their
calculations work by imagining "exchanges" of magic particles
which they need to empower each of their magic "forces" - so-
called strong and weak nuclear, electro-mag and "gravity".

Ockham's Razor says the establishment's contrived and
complicated cover-up is likely false. A universal f.t.l force
will easily and simply explain why establishment's "forces" are
mere effects, and how gravity is a shadow within an effect -
 "inertia". (Which is why "gravity" can't be quantumized - check
Richard P Feynman's exasperated comments).

Gravity-B is running now - don't hold your breath for timely or
truthful reporting though. But you could check "badsci.txt" for
Nigel Calder's expose on how reputations of top scientists (and
maybe politicians secret aims) are being protected by
suppression of real inquiry and cover-ups of real results.


Best wishes

Cheers

Ray D

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Perceptions" http://www.perceptions.couk.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






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   Nov > Nov 18

                Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Reynolds

From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:43:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 06:28:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Reynolds


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:54:58 -0800
>Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI

>1 Particles, anything with mass, cannot travel FTL.

>2 Massless particles (photons..) travel AT the speed of light,
> perhaps of necessity.

>3 Useful information can _not_ travel FTL.

>How is this so, in view of Entanglement, which _is_ now commonly
>accepted by physics?

>It is particle 'spin', a quantum _property_ of two photons (or
>whatever) that becomes entangled, rather than the entire
>particle.

>If I have this right, Spin is random and indeterminate
>(undecided) until it is observed. If you observe the spin of a
>particle, you force it into one of two states, spin 'up' or spin
>'down'. Nobody can predict which of up or down will show.

>Having done so, and if another particle is 'entangled', the spin
>of THAT particle is instantaneously affected. .. I think it
>assumes the opposite spin from the first particle / photon, not
>sure of that.

>In any case, a 'sender' will generate a series of random ups and
>downs, (or ones and zeros if you prefer). Any receiver will get
>a corresponding (but inverted) series of downs and ups (zeros
>and ones).

>Now, try and imagine sending a message that way.

>Since no useful information is transmitted, Einstein is _not_
>refuted! The Spooky Action at a Distance is still there, but the
>strange otherworldly realm of the quantum prevents us, as if by
>some hidden law, from making any use of it so far. I sincerely
>wish it were otherwise.

>The link you kindly gave above leads eventually to the Colossal
>Storage Corp. page here:

>http://colossalstorage.net/home.htm

>Covered with US patent numbers, references to all sorts of
>universities and scientists, the highly webmastered graphics,
>and of course the appeal "We are actively looking for customers,
>venture capital..." suggest a degree of caution to say the
>least.


Larry

Quantum "particles" are not particles in the usual sense of the
word.

Quarks, leptons, and newer constituents of the atom are either
waves or evanescent elementals which seem to have the property
of particles but are not particles.

"Massless particles" is an oxymoron.

No one knows what quantum artifacts are, but that they travel
over vast distances, abutting or "entangling" with other like-
artifacts, is not disputed.

The "spin" you allude to is actually the quantum particle -
not an attribute of the particle.

But if the whole thing flummoxed the great Einstein, how much
moreso are we, mere mortals, flummoxed by the concepts of
quantum.

As usual, you enlighten with your erudition, and I, for one,
find your explanations clearer than those in the quantum tomes
around here.


Rich Reynolds







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   Nov > Nov 18

             Re: Top Scientist Asks Is Life All Just A Dream? -

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:57:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 06:29:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Top Scientist Asks Is Life All Just A Dream? -


>Source: The Sunday Times - Britain

>http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1358588,00.html

>11-14-04


>Top Scientist Asks Is Life All Just A Dream?
>Jonathan Leake
>Science Editor

<snip>

>"This raises the philosophical question: could we ourselves be
>in such a simulation and could what we think is the universe be
>some sort of vault of heaven rather than the real thing. In a
>sense we could be ourselves the creations within this
>simulation."

As I wrote in my book Abduction In My Life, we are the
artificial intelligence.







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   Nov > Nov 18

                       Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON? - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:18:13 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 06:31:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON? - King


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 07:28:53 -0500
>Subject: Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON?

<snip>

>To my knowledge, Dan Ackroyd has not actually been involved in
>any UFO related documentaries, but I certainly could be wrong.
>He is a Hollywood figure that expressed an interest in the
>genre, and MUFON was very glad to bring him into the fold. He
>bring his interest and stature to the field, but not any
>specific expertise that I'm aware of.

>I think it's great that he wants to be involved in the genre,
>and I hope his support will help the field. On the other hand,
>is the involvement of a Hollywood figure going to lend real
>credibility to the subject as a serious area of study? It
>certainly could help MUFON in attracting a few additional "Field
>Investigators", but it's not likely to have a broader impact.


Hi Steve,

Dan Aykroyd - correct spelling - is a comic actor and
improvisational talent.

He is also a UFO buff... armchair variety... and has hosted at
least one 'unexplained mystery' tv show that I can recall.

His involvement is a double-edged sword. Since he is fondly
remembered as a satirist, lending his image to a UFO show can
tend to paint the field as a 'wink and a nudge' sort of area of
study.

Of course, the fact that he is a satirist doesn't mean he can't
be a respected member of the community, but it does allow others
the ability to see the field as fit for the likes of a funnyman.
No disrespect intended, but it would be the same if Ray Walston
had announced his belief in UFOs and went on the lecture
circuit. What promoter could resist the headline... *My Favorite
Martian* reveals belief in UFOs!! His involvement would have
been welcome... but detrimental at the end of the day.


Best Regards,

Kyle








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   Nov > Nov 18

                      Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON? - Kaeser

From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 11:40:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 06:34:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON? - Kaeser


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 07:28:53 -0500
>Subject: Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON?

<snip>

>To my knowledge, Dan Ackroyd has not actually been involved in
>any UFO related documentaries, but I certainly could be wrong.
>He is a Hollywood figure that expressed an interest in the
>genre, and MUFON was very glad to bring him into the fold. He
>bring his interest and stature to the field, but not any
>specific expertise that I'm aware of.


He's been involved in documentaries. Here's a new project he is
taking part in:

http://www.laufo.com/

There's more things he's done in the past.







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   Nov > Nov 18

                      Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON? - Conte

From: Carrie Conte <cconte1.nul>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 11:46:43 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 06:36:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON? - Conte


Hi List,

I am not sure why Dan Aykroyd was on Regis the other morning,
but I was sent an email regarding a new DVD he has done
regarding UFOs. This was taken from the UFO Store website
regarding his new DVD.

Dan Aykroyd Unplugged on UFOs - DVD  AVAILABLE Nov 21, 2004

http://theufostore.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=T&Product_Co
de=Ser-Dan-DVD&Category_Code=DVD&Product_Count=30

While I am not plugging for the UFO Store, the site above gives
some background information regarding Dan Aykroyd and his
interests in UFOs.


Best Regards,

Carrie Conte







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             Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term - Miller

From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:49:43 +0000 (GMT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 06:37:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term - Miller


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:58:58 -0800
>Subject: Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term


>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:09:09 +0000 (GMT)
>>Subject: Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term

>>>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 11:18:00 +0000 (GMT)
>>>Subject: Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term

><snip>

>Thank you Col and Stuart (possibly others)

>You have clarified your position on these matters much better
>than I would have. Instead of me just guessing, you pretty
>much spelled it out; UFOs as entertainment etc.

>There are numerous forums for paranormal matters, many or most
>completely unhampered by pretentions to logic or scientific
>method. I hope that UpDates does not become one of those,


Hi Larry,

I don't have much argument with what you've said here. Speaking
only for myself, I'd quibble about defining my interest in
Ufology as purely being for entertainment and would politely
suggest it goes a little deeper than that.

But we've been here before Larry. Sometimes it gets a bit
"restrictive" on the List and some of us find it a bit
intimidating. I was simply giving the penduluum a shove back in
the other direction.

Without people like you and the very valuable work that you
contribute, Ufology would be in a far sorrier state than it is
now. But there's room for all.

>UpDates is rare.

Never a truer word spoken.


Stuart Miller








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             Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term - Miller

From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:55:14 +0000 (GMT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 06:39:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term - Miller


>From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:13:22 -0500
>Subject: Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term

>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:09:09 +0000 (GMT)
>>Subject: Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term

><snip>

>>Furthermore, your questioning of the need for scientific
>>involvement in ufology clearly marks you out as "not one of
>>us",for you cannot see the light. Scientific involvement will
>>lead to salvation, no, hold on, that's not a pc word either,
>>err it will lead to... darn and dam. What will it lead to?

>More clutter, yet more acceptance, more answers, yet more
>questions. Some new ones and some old ones. Finally, a push
>toward the governmeny to release alien-related info. - bodies,
>wreckage etc.

Aaron,

On balance, probably right. So where is it then?

Try leaving a saucer(!) of milk for it outside one night and see
if it comes acreeping. We've tried everything else.


Stuart Miller








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             Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term - Miller

From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 17:17:25 +0000 (GMT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 06:53:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term - Miller


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 05:49:53 -0500
>Subject: Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term

>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:09:09 +0000 (GMT)
>>Subject: Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term

>>>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 11:18:00 +0000 (GMT)
>>>Subject: Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term

>>>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:54:44 -0500
>>>>Subject: Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term

><snip>

>I think we'll have to nominate you for gate keeper..... <g>

>In the end it all depends on what your goal in ufology is. If
>you're really here because you're just curious and like the
>subject, that's great. However, this all began as a quasi
>scientific enquiry and some of the "old timers' in the crowd
>would like to keep that focus.

>Let me add that this 'List' is not a scientific List, per se.
>I  believe the subjects listed above are all fair game for
>discussion, and I'm sure that Errol wouldn't want to limit
>anyone's journey of self-discovery.


Steve,

I more than take your point, which is the same one Larry was
making. I respect that. Neither do I want to change it.
Actually, neither could I even if I wanted to.

I wouldn't mind a little slack though once in a while. Col made
an appropriate point that I know others share.

I personally have very little interest in the subjects I listed.
If I did, I wouldn't be here. But neither is my interest
restricted soley to data, cases, detail. It cannot be. Perhaps
this is where I and the "old timers" part company but I cannot
see how a subject like this can be restricted to pure nuts and
bolts. I feel a much broader perspective has to be considered,
and when that consideration is proffered, I think it is then
that perhaps some of the more senior List members might object.

In the end, we're all on the same journey. Some of us like to
stop and admire the scenery on the way. That's my point really.


Stuart Miller








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                          Secrecy News -- 11/17/04

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:35:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 06:56:11 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 11/17/04


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 101
November 17, 2004


**      NGA PURSUES CONTROL OF UNCLASSIFIED SATELLITE IMAGERY
**      SECURITY GUARDS AND CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE (CRS)
**      AL QAEDA: STATEMENTS AND EVOLVING IDEOLOGY (CRS)
**      LINK ANALYSIS: CONNECTING THE DOTS
**      MELBA PHILLIPS, FAS CO-FOUNDER


NGA PURSUES CONTROL OF UNCLASSIFIED SATELLITE IMAGERY

The National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA) contacted a
private web site this week to advise that a one year old
commercial satellite image of the Iraqi city of Fallujah should
not have been publicly disclosed even though it is unclassified
and should not be further distributed.

John Young of Cryptome.org noted the incident and republished
the unclassified image in question here:

http://cryptome.org/fallujah-ban.htm

The private web site at http://gallery.colofinder.net/ that was
approached by NGA also retains the Fallujah image online.

The NGA asserts the right to limit disclosure of unclassified
satellite imagery based on a statute enacted in 2000 (10 USC
455), which entitles the Defense Department to withhold imagery
and related products under certain conditions, independent of
their classification status.

That statute is implemented by DoD Directive 5030.59. It
established the LIMDIS or Limited Distribution caveat for
controlling unclassified satellite imagery. See:

http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/dod/d5030_59.pdf

Other current imagery of Fallujah is available through
GlobalSecurity.org here:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/fallujah-imagery.htm


SECURITY GUARDS AND CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE (CRS)

Much of the burden of protecting the nation's critical
facilities against terrorist attack falls on approximately one
million security guards and other security personnel.

A new report from the Congressional Research Service examines
their adequacy to the task, including questions of training,
authority, salary, and more.

The Congressional Research Service does not permit direct public
access to its products. A copy of the new report was obtained by
Secrecy News.

See "Guarding America: Security Guards and U.S. Critical
Infrastructure Protection," November 12, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/RL32670.pdf


AL QAEDA: STATEMENTS AND EVOLVING IDEOLOGY (CRS)

Changes in the substance and presentation of al Qaeda public
statements over the past several years are briefly analyzed in
another new Congressional Research Service report obtained by
Secrecy News.

See "Al Qaeda: Statements and Evolving Ideology," November 16,
2004:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RS21973.pdf

A declassified Defense Intelligence Agency report on al Qaeda
released to Judicial Watch under the Freedom of Information Act
is described and linked here:

http://www.judicialwatch.org/3883.shtml


LINK ANALYSIS: CONNECTING THE DOTS

A new report prepared for the Defense Advanced Research Projects
Agency proposes a new information technology approach to the
essential intelligence task of identifying signals of interest
within enormous and growing volumes of data.

Intelligence analysts are "overwhelmed with intelligence reports
from many sources that may provide them with incomplete or
misleading information. There is a need for information
technology to help the analyst with identification of threat
cases, tracking and analysis of the data to confirm the emerging
threat."

"The approach taken here is one of link discovery by matching
transactional data stored in a relational database to a well-
defined scenario describing a threat situation. The Link
Analysis Workbench (LAW) is designed to find patterns
(scenarios) buried within vast quantities of large and noisy
datasets helping analysts find evidence to support the threat
described in the pattern."

See "Link Analysis Workbench," SRI International, September 2004
(1.3. MB PDF file):

http://www.fas.org/irp/eprint/law.pdf


MELBA PHILLIPS, FAS CO-FOUNDER

Physicist Melba Phillips, among the last of a vanishing
generation of activist scientists who founded the Federation of
American Scientists and fought the political battles of the
early cold war, died last week.

A 1947 policy statement on "military secrecy and security" that
she co-authored for the FAS leadership complained that the
personnel security practices of the Atomic Energy Commission
were "extra-legal, arbitrary, and often subversive of every
right of the individual in a democracy" (quoted by Jessica Wang,
American Science in an Age of Anxiety, p. 157).

FAS in its early years was sharply divided between liberal
anti-communists, who eventually became dominant, and popular
front liberals. Dr. Phillips was among the latter.

In 1952, she was summoned to testify before the Senate Judiciary
Committee's subcommittee on internal security, but she refused
to answer questions. She was subsequently fired from her
teaching position at Brooklyn College. In 1987, the College
formally apologized to her for its actions.

Melba Phillips is remembered in this Washington Post obituary:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A55728-2004Nov16.html


_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

Secrecy News has an RSS feed at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood.nul
voice: (202) 454-4691








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                           Re: UFO Webcam - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:21:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 06:58:11 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Webcam - White


>From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:49:18 -0500
>Subject: Re: UFO Webcam

>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers -
>>Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 07:25:01 -0500
>>Subject: UFO UpDate: UFO Webcam

>>Source: BBC Northeast Wales Weird Guide

>http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/northeast/guides/weird/ufos/pages/dobshill_ufo.shtml

>>11-06-03

>>UFO Webcam

>>There have been numerous close encounters in the vicinity of
>>this highway webcam so keep a look-out overhead. If you see
>>something, scroll over the photo and click the email icon to
>>mail it to us at wales.northeast.nul

>Too bad the web cam is shooting the road and not much sky. Good
>idea though.

>I been wanting to do sky watches of late but it is freezing
>where I live. This doesn't always stop me, but it is very
>painful to do. Web-cams make a nice substitute.

To avoid having to watch miles of videotape hoping there might
be a UFO there, is there a computer program available that can
analyze videotape and capture segments with possible UFOs? Such
captured segments would of course include some aircraft, but I
would think this would be a great adjunct to a UFO webcam.

If no such analysis program is available, is anyone interested
in working on one? I'd suspect that CUFOS might have some
interest in such a project. Betcha the U.S. government has one.


Eleanor White








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                      Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON? - Groff

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:14:17 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 06:59:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON? - Groff


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 07:26:40 -0800
>Subject: Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON?

>>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:42:01 -0600
>>Subject: Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON?

>>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 07:53:23 -0800
>>>Subject: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON?

>>>Fellow Listerions,

>>>I saw Dan Ackroyd on Live With Regis And Kelly - yes I admit
>>>watching to it. In the segment he mentioned doing something
with
>>>MUFON, but I didn't catch all of it.

>>>Can anyone enlighten me as to his involvement?

>>Ackroyd is a huge supporter and lifetime member of MUFON.

>>http://mufon.com/akroyd.htm

>Thanks Terry, I was aware of the membership; however, Ackroyd
>was alluding to some "specific project" in conjunction with
>MUFON; I believe he said it was "InterNet related."

>Frank

Hmmm, I'm not sure. Maybe I can find out.

I do know MUFON is in the process of bringing WUFOD (Worldwide
UFO Database) to the home website. WUFOD used to be hosted by
Ohio MUFON but those pages aren't there anymore.

I'll see if I can find out what Ackroyd was referring to.


Terry







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                            Board An Alien Craft?

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 05:13:11 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 07:06:40 -0500
Subject: Board An Alien Craft?


Well, if you got the invitation to board an alien craft, would
you?

I'll explain later why I'm posting this. You wouldn't believe it
right now.

There are several vintage tv shows that should have had an
episode where the main characters got abducted.

I Love Lucy, Get Smart, The Odd Couple, Beverly Hillbillies.

Just to name a few.

Bottom line is, would you have the guts to voluntarily board an
alien craft if invited?


Best,

Greg


["Its... Its... a _cookbook_!!"
 --To Serve Man - The Twiglight Zone - ebk]







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                          New Photos At SOCEX Site

From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex.nul>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 09:07:18 -0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:10:42 -0500
Subject: New Photos At SOCEX Site


New Photos At Society of Extraterrestrial Studies site:

http://www.socex.net/photos.htm

http://www.socex.net/photos1.htm

http://www.socex.net/photos2.htm








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                The UFO Triangle Houston-Smithers-Terrace BC

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO Research <hbccufo.nul>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:58:04 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:15:02 -0500
Subject: The UFO Triangle Houston-Smithers-Terrace BC


Source: The Interior News, Smithers, B.C.

www.interior-news.com

17-17-04

Feature story Page A8


The Truth Is Here

The UFO Triangle
Houston, Smithers, Terrace, British Columbia
by David Connop Price

The sun's first rays were creeping into the morning sky
September 22nd, when Beverly Evans saw a strange object in the
sky heading towards her. Little more than a hundred meters from
her car it changed direction, flying up and out of sight.

Beverly is not alone in seeing mysterious objects in the sky. So
many have been seen in the Houston-Smithers-Terrace region in
the last few years, that Houston Ufologist Brian Vike has called
the area the UFO capital of Canada.

Houston and Terrace have had the third and fourth highest number
of UFO sightings in Canada for the last two years. In 2003
Houston's 33 reported sightings were just one less than Toronto
and just 8 behind Vancouver, the leading city for UFO sightings.

The following are eye witness accounts of some of the events
that have some calling this area .... the UFO Triangle....

Mellow Yellow - Wednesday September 22nd 2004 6.40 a.m.

Beverly, a Telkwa resident, told her story to Brian Vike.
Beverly was on her way to work in Smithers as she came to the
Babine Lake Road turn, she saw a bright yellow-white light
coming in a downward motion from the Telkwa mountain range.

It crossed highway 16 about 100 meters ahead of her and at an
altitude of two-to-three telephone-pole lengths. As it passed
she noticed the object appeared round in shape and glowed light
green underneath.

Just as she thought it was going to crash, the object rose up
and disappeared into the clouds. The object made no sound and
left no trail. She reports the incident lasted 15-20 seconds and
that there were two vehicles behind her that may have seen the
same light.

Bright Light of Houston - August 11th, 2004 2.45 a.m.

Eddie Westgarde was having trouble sleeping and headed to the
kitchen for a glass of water. He noticed a strange light through
his kitchen window. "It was strange because the light that came
behind our place didn't seem like it was the moon, it seemed
like a different light and it "was kind of startling" said
Eddie.

"It was standing in behind the trees but it came through the
trees so you couldn't see any of the trees because of the light.
But there was heavy trees there and there shouldn't be light
coming through there".

The light wasn't high in the sky "it was right down more towards
the horizon". It went down there, disappeared in there." The
light caused no visible damage to Eddie's yard. "There's nothing
there, I couldn't see nothing around".

"It just seemed like an awful strange thing that the light can
shine through the trees".

The Pink Thing - April 8th 2004 11.20 p.m.

This bizarre phenomenon was seen by two different Smithers
residents. One reported sighting came from retired teacher Anne
Lauderdale. "I just went out to give my dog some dog biscuits
before I went to bed, he has a dog house right on the deck and I
just turned around and there was the thing in the sky" Anne
said. "It was a large pink spherical object, very bright pink, a
colour all the girls like."

"It was not above the mountain, it was hovering the ski hill
road and then it moved towards town in front of the mountain,
you could see it moving down the valley and it just sort of
disappeared. I only saw it for a few seconds I guess." "There
was no sound coming from the object nor did it have a tail", she
said. "But it did have a dark blue aura around it". Anne
believes it was at least the size of a big truck tire and "it
wasn't moving like a plane or anything like that."

Anne, 62, laughs saying "I haven't lost my marbles yet so I
wasn't imagining things!"

"I was fascinated. I'm like, what am I seeing here?" You know
its really strange".

The Pink Thing II - April 16th, 2004 10.45 p.m.

Eight days later Ruby Charlie, 42, saw something remarkably
similar. She said she saw a "big pink light" in the sky. At the
time she had not heard of Anne's sighting.

"I was going to work on graveyard (shift) and I seen it in the
sky on Biliter Road there", said Ruby, a house care worker at
Bulkley Lodge. The UFO was coming west above Biliter Road,
towards me. Then it backed up and disappeared,".

Ruby estimates the distance from her to the object was "a few
blocks" and it was "three tree lengths" up in the sky. It was
"about the size of the full moon".

The object made no sound but Ruby admits she may not have heard
anything because she was in her truck. She said the pink light
had no distinguishing features.

"I just couldn't understand what it was", said Ruby. " Then I
went to work and told one of my friends that I'd just seen a UFO
and she was jealous".

The Bulkley Valley Speed Ball - July 29th 2002 10.20 p.m.

Mike Hill, a Canfor employee in Houston, stepped from a forklift
to examine a phosphorescent-like white ball of light with yellow
undertones, which appeared to hover before slowly crawling
across the skyline.

Mike called out to two co-workers, who caught sight of the
glowing light. "I called them over because I wanted to prove
that I saw something and that I wasn't crazy", Mike explained.

The object grew a tail as it gained speed towards Tweedsmuir
Park and shot out of sight, ending the 20 second display.

"In my mind it looked like a meteorite, but it was like no
meteorite I had ever seen. I'd seen meteor showers before, but
they never looked anything like this. I really don't know what
it was," Mike concludes.

10.40 p.m. Dina Hanson, a teacher in Quick, saw a white ball of
light travelling silently in a south-westerly direction, from
Quick to Telkwa. Her son Ryan Hanson also saw the object.

10.45 pm. Gordon Stewart settled down to watch a movie after
spending the day on his Telkwa farm. The bay windows facing his
chair overlooked the valley. A bright light flashed by his field
of vision and he was astonished by its peculiarity and speed. He
walked onto the porch, where he was greeted by only silence and
a sky with light cloud cover.

Gordon, who used to drive 200-mph dragsters, estimated the speed
of the object at 650-miles per hour. "If you had blinked you
would have missed it", he said. From where he was sitting, the
light appeared the size of a pick up truck.

He woke his wife Joanna and upon sharing his description of the
round, white light with a yellowish hue, he learned his wife had
seen the same light in the same location a few months earlier.

"I didn't want to tell him because he'd think I was crazy",
Joanna recalled.

The flat trajectory and lack of sound would rule out a
meteorite. A comet was spotted the same night, but its glowing
green light, arc-shaped flight and Hudson Bay Mountain location
do not tally with Gordon's sighting.

Gordon called the RCMP and learned there was no air force
activity in the area. Central Mountain Air reported there was
one training flight aloft from 10.07 - 11.04 p.m. However a
Central Mountain Air spokesman saw no connection between the
occurrences.

She speculated that the tiny Cessna 185 would not emit a bright
light of that magnitude and its engines would be heard at a
close proximity.

Dina's observation in Quick shared many characteristics with
Gordon's. Their phenomenon also moved silently. But at a speed
exceeding the propulsion of a man made object. The description
of size, awe striking brightness and the white yellow hues of
light are similar too.

Dina's light was an elongated circle shape, whereas Gordon's was
round. Dina also noted a slight downward trajectory on the
object she saw, but Ryan contends that because the object was
moving away from them, it may just appear to be dropping because
of their perspective.

Although Gordon admits an open mind to the possibility of other
life forms existing in the universe, he talked himself through
the possible explanations and still came to the same conclusion.

"I knew I saw something out of the ordinary".

Ufologist, Brian Vike believes all these reports can be
classified as high-quality unexplained events. For example, he
thinks the pink object descriptions appear to rule out usual
suspects like aircraft, meteors and planets.

Hoaxes aren't common either, said Vike.

"I would say the percentage is pretty high that people are
credible and I'm not saying they're UFO's, some of the things
are very explainable, but the majority are credible."

Chris Rutkowski is the Research Co-ordinator for the Canadian
UFO Survey. He collects data on sightings across Canada and is
the repository for UFO reports received by the Government.

He said the activity in Smithers-Houston-Terrace area is "very
significant for the population."

While noting that sightings are down this year, Rutkowski said,
"We've had many dozens of reports from British Columbia,
particularly the Smithers-Houston-Telkwa area, compared to other
regions over the past number of years".

"In fact, for the past five years or so, it appears that British
Columbia has had far more than its share of UFO reports than we
would expect, based simply on population".

If, as the saying goes, the truth is out there, it may be right
here in B.C.'s Central Interior towns of Houston, Smithers and
Terrace.

The names Beverly Evans and Mike Hill are pseudonyms.






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                       Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON? - Huff

From: Bob Huff <bob.nul>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:26:44 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:19:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON? - Huff


>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:42:01 -0600
>Subject: Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON?

>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 07:53:23 -0800
>>Subject: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON?

>>Fellow Listerions,

>>I saw Dan Ackroyd on Live With Regis And Kelly - yes I admit
>>watching to it. In the segment he mentioned doing something with
>>MUFON, but I didn't catch all of it.

>>Can anyone enlighten me as to his involvement?

>Ackroyd is a huge supporter and lifetime member of MUFON.

>http://mufon.com/akroyd.htm


Hi,

Dan Ackroyd also has an interest in alien abductions.

Back in the mid-90s, Dan Ackroyd and Patrick Swayze used to
frequently visit an alleged alien abductee in Northern Virginia.
The abductee is one of the authors of the abductee book,
Connections.

According to her, she and Swayze had known of each other through
a series of abductions when Swayze was a teenager.


Best,

Bob







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             Re: Top Scientist Asks Is Life All Just A Dream? -

From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 03:48:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 11:53:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Top Scientist Asks Is Life All Just A Dream? -


Here's a big philosophical read. "What is the Nature of Universal
Truth".

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1358588,00.html

A lot of the ideas found on the link I provide are similar to
what was discussed in the link above for those interested.

http://www.cafemuse.com/sethnet/Inner_Laws.html#Universal_Truth

I recommend bookmarking it. It's very long.








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                     Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON? - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 06:46:45 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 11:55:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON? - Lehmberg


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:18:13 -0600
>Subject: Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON?

>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 07:28:53 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON?

<snip>

>Dan Aykroyd - correct spelling - is a comic actor and
>improvisational talent.

>He is also a UFO buff... armchair variety... and has hosted at
>least one 'unexplained mystery' tv show that I can recall.

>His involvement is a double-edged sword. Since he is fondly
>remembered as a satirist, lending his image to a UFO show can
>tend to paint the field as a 'wink and a nudge' sort of area of
>study.

>Of course, the fact that he is a satirist doesn't mean he can't
>be a respected member of the community, but it does allow others
>the ability to see the field as fit for the likes of a funnyman.
>No disrespect intended, but it would be the same if Ray Walston
>had announced his belief in UFOs and went on the lecture
>circuit. What promoter could resist the headline... *My Favorite
>Martian* reveals belief in UFOs!! His involvement would have
>been welcome... but detrimental at the end of the day.

Mr. King;

This seems more than a little dismissive, unproductive, and
inopportune. Seems to me you back-hand the interest of an
articulate, intelligent, and well connected individual out of
some hubris of institutional arrogance to some degree, at best
premature and at worst the worst kind of retrograde (and
unsuccessful in 5 decades) parochialism.

Give the man enough rope with which he might hang himself, will
you, and see what he does with it?  I for one welcome one Mr.
Aykroyd, 'A?

I have a feeling he's not the sort to make us pay for his
celebrity, could contribute significantly to positive attention,
and would be a wonderful magnet for just the kinds of funds the
field definitely needs, or maybe ya ain't been keepin' up with
current events (or been distracted by others?).

Elwood Blues is preferable, by an order of magnitude, to no
Elwood Blues... an example of a sample of one not being science
but all that science is not?

...I'm not sure what that meant either... <g>  The writing was
'automatic', sort of. Enough to say I think your criticality
lacks efficaciousness, and suggests an inappropriate and largely
unsupported philosophical, if not institutional, bias,
forgetting for a moment you have every right to it, and that I
have all respect _for_ it.

Mr. Aykroyd is likely just another of us sucked into the
cultivated information void and our numbers might be plussed
positively for his inclusion.  You can't fault the Elephant Man
for having an interest in Elephantiasis, Sir.

Hmmm... not sure what that meant either.  Zen... sort of. [g].


alienview.nul  -:=A6:-
   www.AlienView.net









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                Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 06:55:24 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 11:57:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term -


>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 17:17:25 +0000 (GMT)
>Subject: Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term

>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 05:49:53 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Ufology's Financial Problems Long Term

<snip>

>I personally have very little interest in the subjects I listed.
>If I did, I wouldn't be here. But neither is my interest
>restricted soley to data, cases, detail. It cannot be. Perhaps
>this is where I and the "old timers" part company but I cannot
>see how a subject like this can be restricted to pure nuts and
>bolts. I feel a much broader perspective has to be considered,
>and when that consideration is proffered, I think it is then
>that perhaps some of the more senior List members might object.

>In the end, we're all on the same journey. Some of us like to
>stop and admire the scenery on the way. That's my point really.

Wow - this puts it in a basket. Science restricts itself, by
definition, to such a narrow band... like watching science
channel through a pinhole and hearing one second out of a
hundred. We could be looking (be open) for ways to widen the
hole and hear more of the program.


alienview.nul -:=A6:-
  www.AlienView.net








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                      Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON? - Warren

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 07:27:51 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 11:58:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON? - Warren


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:18:13 -0600
>Subject: Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON?

>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 07:28:53 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON?

><snip>

>>To my knowledge, Dan Aykroyd has not actually been involved in
>>any UFO related documentaries, but I certainly could be wrong.
>>He is a Hollywood figure that expressed an interest in the
>>genre, and MUFON was very glad to bring him into the fold. He
>>bring his interest and stature to the field, but not any
>>specific expertise that I'm aware of.

>>I think it's great that he wants to be involved in the genre,
>>and I hope his support will help the field. On the other hand,
>>is the involvement of a Hollywood figure going to lend real
>>credibility to the subject as a serious area of study? It
>>certainly could help MUFON in attracting a few additional "Field
>>Investigators", but it's not likely to have a broader impact.

Steve, Kyle Et Al,

>Hi Steve,

>Dan Aykroyd - correct spelling - is a comic actor and
>improvisational talent.

My fault, I started the mis-spelling.

>He is also a UFO buff... armchair variety... and has hosted at
>least one 'unexplained mystery' tv show that I can recall.

It would seem he's making a transition from an "armchair
Ufologist" to one who is more active in the field.

>His involvement is a double-edged sword. Since he is fondly
>remembered as a satirist, lending his image to a UFO show can
>tend to paint the field as a 'wink and a nudge' sort of area of
>study.

I think the "wink and nudge" attitudes fade away immediately,
after listening and or reading about what Aykroyd has to say on
the subject; he's a very intelligent, articulate individual, and
is most knowledgible in the field of Ufology.

>Of course, the fact that he is a satirist doesn't mean he can't
>be a respected member of the community, but it does allow others
>the ability to see the field as fit for the likes of a funnyman.
>No disrespect intended, but it would be the same if Ray Walston
>had announced his belief in UFOs and went on the lecture
>circuit. What promoter could resist the headline... My Favorite
>Martian reveals belief in UFOs!! His involvement would have
>been welcome... but detrimental at the end of the day.

Again, I don't doubt that there will always be those who'll poke
fun at Aykroyd, or any comedian who publicly talks about UFOs;
however, I think at the end of the day, those who take the time
to listen to Aykroyd, will at the very least have more questions
for him-serious questions.


Respectfully,

Frank








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                     Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON? - LeClair

From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 11:31:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 12:00:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON? - LeClair


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 07:49:29 -0800
>Subject: Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON?

>>From: Simon Hicks <slh.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:55:33 +0800
>>Subject: Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON?

>>>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:42:01 -0600
>>>Subject: Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON?

><snip>

>>>Aykroyd is a huge supporter and lifetime member of MUFON.

>>>http://mufon.com/akroyd.htm

>>I am sure he has done a video or two with David Sereda as well:

>>http://www.ufonasa.com/

>Simon, Et Al,

>Thanks Simon! I wasn't aware of this very interesting web-site.
>I wonder if this what what Aykroyd was alluding to.


Jeff Rense interviewed those 2 atleast a few years ago on the
subject that is dealt with at:

http://www.ufonasa.com/

In another e-mail I linked to some newer Dan related stuff. I no
longer have the URL so I couldn't link it here as well.








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                                Mack The Life

From: Will Bueche - John E Mack Institute <info.nul>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 11:32:45 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 12:04:07 -0500
Subject: Mack The Life


Mack The Life - Memorial in Cambridge and San Francisco

Source: The Boston Phoenix
November 19 - 25, 2004
p. 24

Mack, The Life

In snubbing professor John Mack's memorial, 'official Harvard'
testifies to the power of his brilliant unconventionality

By
Harvey A. Silverglate

Unsurprisingly, nobody from "official Harvard" - the
administration of Harvard University or of its Medical School -
 took the podium in Memorial Church last Saturday to give Dr.
John Mack the kind of sendoff that this remarkable human being
deserved. Oh, plenty of people eulogized the man for his path-
breaking work as psychoanalyst, community psychiatrist,
humanitarian, medical and political activist, anti-nuke and
anti-war organizer, and Pulitzer Prize-winning author (for his
remarkable 1976 psychoanalytic biography of T.E. Lawrence, a/k/a
Lawrence of Arabia). Some even mentioned the adventurer-
clinician's most-controversial research into mysterious
phenomena such as alien abductions and communications with the
dead. But other than the Reverend Peter Gomes, who presided over
the service and thus indicated the esteem in which Dr. Mack was
held by Harvard's head clergyman, no one formally represented
the university Mack had served with distinction for four
decades.

It's no wonder official Harvard absented itself from Mack's
leave-taking, given what it had put him through in the mid '90s.
At that time, Harvard Medical School convened a committee to
review Dr. Mack's work, stacked it with his detractors, and
tried to withdraw his tenure - something unprecedented in the
university's 368-year history. The university ultimately
retreated in defeat in 1995, but the ugly incident hovered in
the background of the memorial service for this very un-Harvard
sort of genius, who died after being hit by a drunk driver in
London in late September, at age 74.

DR. MACK HAD an extraordinary career marked by outside-the-box
thinking even before he became interested, in 1990, in the
growing body of reports by seemingly sane people who claimed
they'd had encounters with alien beings. In the 1960s, he
started the modern psychiatry department at Cambridge City
Hospital, which became one of the nation's most respected
facilities for treating troubled children. In 1983, at Harvard,
he founded the Center for Psychology and Social Change, which
was recently renamed the John E. Mack Institute. Much of his
pioneering research was done under the umbrella of the John E.
Mack Institute, funded largely by Laurance Rockefeller, grandson
of the great oil tycoon. Mack became deeply involved in the
movement to rid humanity of nuclear arms, making numerous visits
to the world's nuclear powers. Because of his substantial role
in the work of International Physicians for the Prevention of
Nuclear War, he was invited to Oslo in 1985, when the
organization won the Nobel Peace Prize. His was a full and
useful life well-lived.

The sheer range of Dr. Mack's intellectual interests and
accomplishments may have played a big part in his trouble with
Harvard. It started in June 1994, when Medical School dean
Daniel Tosteson appointed emeritus professor Arnold Relman,
known for his conservative - indeed, rigid - views on medicine
and medical research, to head an administrative committee to
investigate Dr. Mack's research. This came shortly after Mack
published Abduction: Human Encounters With Aliens (Scribner's,
1994), in which he analyzed case studies of people who reported
experiences with apparent extraterrestrials. Rather than assume
the subjects - called "experiencers" - were hallucinating or
otherwise insane, Mack concluded that the reports were so
widespread and had such a profound impact on the lives of the
experiencers that possibly they were reporting a phenomenon that
deserved credence. In order to take it seriously, he pointed out
in his introduction to the book, one has to try to "participate
in a universe or universes that are filled with intelligences
from which we have cut ourselves off, having lost the senses by
which we might know them." He called for a new paradigm to
replace, or at least supplement, the narrow "materialist"
scientific method by which Western scientists try to understand
the physical world and universe. He suggested, in other words, a
new way of looking at reality and of understanding not only the
physical but also the spiritual world. In this sense, Mack
worked very much in the tradition of one of Harvard's greatest
psychologist-philosophers, William James.

But Harvard's narrower - and narrow-minded - thinkers looked at
Mack's approach as violating the medical school's professional-
research standards (although in fact it was their world-view
that he challenged). Given the opportunity either to renounce
his views or to resign from the faculty, Mack instead fought a
bitter battle with a committee that was obviously stacked
against him. The committee's report was scathing in its critique
of Mack, ignoring virtually everything that he and his lead
lawyer, Boston litigator Roderick MacLeish Jr., had produced not
only to support his work and his successful clinical results,
but to highlight his right, under principles of academic
freedom, to continue his research unhindered by the university.
(Disclosure: I served as an informal legal adviser to Mack at
the time.)

Several months after the investigative committee commenced its
work, which would ultimately take 15 months, word of this
extraordinary inquisition leaked out and spread like wildfire on
the then-fledgling medium of the Internet. In some academic and
legal circles, Harvard's investigation was viewed not as an
effort to uphold intellectual standards of excellence and
accuracy, but as something rooted in fear, ignorance, or
jealousy of Mack's pursuit of questions that more rigid minds
could not or would not comprehend.

The tug-of-war ended not with a bang but a whimper in July 1995,
when Dean Tosteson called Mack into his office, had a friendly
chat, and handed him a letter urging him to use care in his
research but reaffirming Mack's right, under academic freedom,
to pursue whatever subjects he wished. What began as an effort
to quietly strip Dr. Mack of his tenure and dismiss him from the
medical-school faculty (although Harvard denied that was its
intent) ended with a highly public victory for the intended
victim.

MACK'S BATTLE with Harvard came up repeatedly but obliquely at
the memorial service. Mu Soeng, a Buddhist scholar and
practitioner who led the assembly in a Buddhist chant, called
his friend "a very remarkable human being" who was "part of the
Harvard establishment" but who had the ability to "step outside
of it." Mack's son, Daniel John Mack, praised his father's
openness to new world-views and modalities of treatment, "even
at risk to his reputation." The famed psychiatrist (now on the
Harvard Medical School faculty) and writer Robert Jay Lifton, a
Mack comrade from the anti-nuclear movement, hailed his friend's
"arcane explorations of consciousness." Poet, lawyer, and
essayist Michael Blumenthal, who was a close friend, noted that
"some sought to mock and persecute John Mack for his goodness."
Harvard faculty colleague and friend Edward Khantzian referred
to the "controversial directions" in which Mack's interests had
taken him, and reported, to the knowing laughter of the
audience, that 10 days before Mack died he told Khantzian: "If
anybody asks, tell them I'm not crazy." A Mack in-law, Jon
Ingbar, quipped that "if John had been more careful, he would
have allowed his day job [at Harvard Medical School] to act as a
cover for his real interests." Raymond Mayo-Smith, educator and
board member of the John E. Mack Institute, noted that Mack
approached "with an open mind" those who reported alien
abductions or communications with the dead - phenomena, he added
pointedly, that "took courage" to explore. "How did he come
through the stress of those times?" asked Mayo-Smith
rhetorically. "He came through it stronger." Those in the
audience who knew Mack's history with the Tosteson/Relman
Committee understood full well it took real courage for him to
fight rather than quietly accept a deal to renounce his
controversial work.

People had come to the event to praise John Mack, not to bury
Harvard University. But it was noteworthy that nobody from
official Harvard offered a eulogy for this remarkable,
accomplished, long-time member of the faculty. "Harvard" is
quite capable of snubbing even the greatest minds if they don't
play the Harvard academic game. In Mack's case, the enlistment
of that ignoble tradition was compounded by Harvard's own
embarrassing defeat by this man, who challenged its narrow
thinking about the nature of knowledge itself.

Then again, Harvard's snub might have a much simpler explanation
- one that also accounts for its decision to go after Mack's
tenure in the first place - namely, professional jealousy. Most
members of the Harvard Medical School, while renowned as medical
researchers and practitioners, in the end make a rather modest
splash in the ocean of life. This is especially true of
psychoanalysts who, like Mack, came out of the conservative
Freudian movement and the Boston Psychoanalytic Institute. They
do not start community psychiatric centers for disturbed kids,
and distinguished research institutes that explore fields of
knowledge others fear to tread. They do not write Pulitzer
Prize-winning books and help start Nobel Prize-winning
organizations seeking to save the planet from nuclear holocaust.
They do not, in other words, shake up their world. Official
Harvard, with its $22 billion endowment, looked pretty small
last Saturday amid the large crowd of admirers who came to pay
their respects to a great and large man.

Harvey A. Silverglate, a regular contributor to "Freedom Watch,"
can be reached at has.nul

Issue Date: November 19 - 25, 2004

---
NOTE FROM THE JOHN E MACK INSTITUTE ABOUT A WEST COAST MEMORIAL:
---

The above article was about John Mack's Cambridge memorial
service. In addition to this service, a West Coast "Remembrance"
event is being planned for San Francisco on January 16. Like the
Cambridge memorial service it will be open to the public and
free of charge.

An alliance of Bay Area organizations including the
International Contact Support Network, the Insititute of Noetic
Sciences (IONS), the Bay Area Consciousness Network (BACN), the
Organization for Paranormal Understanding and Support (OPUS),
California MUFON, Bay Area UFO Expo, and Friendly Favors,
together with the Cambridge-based John E Mack Institute, are
planning this large-scale event in memory of Dr John Mack.

A 300-plus seat venue in Oakland has been selected, and program
information will be announced soon. Tentative speakers planned
for this two-hour event include

* Joe Firmage
* Stan Grof
* James O'Dea
* James Gilliland
* Rusell Targ
* Kathy Vaquilar or Ruben Uriarte
* June Steiner or Loyd Auerbach
* Daniel Sheehan
* possibly a member of John's family
* musical interludes TBD

WHERE: Oakland Asian Cultural Center, 388 9th Street, Oakland, CA

WHEN: Sunday January 16th at 2:00 PM

ADMISSION: FREE. Suggested donation of $10 to cover event
expenses are appreciated.

PARKING: Parking is available underground in the Pacific
Renaissance Plaza for $1.00 per hour.

MERCHANDISE: The out-of-print hardcover edition of Dr. Mack's
Passport to the Cosmos will be available as will the DVD of
Touched.

PLEASE RSVP: SEE INFORMATION AT
www.johnemackinstitute.org








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                          Secrecy News -- 11/18/04

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 12:09:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:41:27 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 11/18/04


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 102
November 18, 2004


**      WILL CONGRESS CRIPPLE INTELLIGENCE OVERSIGHT?
**      CLARKE TESTIMONY FROM 2002 DECLASSIFIED
**      MORE NGA WITHDRAWALS FROM THE PUBLIC DOMAIN
**      CYBERTERROR RUNS RAMPANT


WILL CONGRESS CRIPPLE INTELLIGENCE OVERSIGHT?

Congressional oversight of intelligence may be sharply
diminished as a result of ongoing negotiations between House and
Senate conferees over pending intelligence reform legislation,
the Los Angeles Times reported yesterday.

"Sen. John D. 'Jay' Rockefeller IV (D-W. Va.), a member of the
conference committee, said the Senate's chief negotiators had
accepted a House demand stripping out all congressional
oversight of the national intelligence director," wrote Mary
Curtius in the Los Angeles Times.

"Rockefeller said that he and Sen. Carl Levin (D-Mich.), another
committee member, thought such oversight was essential to ensure
the proper functioning of the intelligence community."

"All the oversight has been stripped out, and that is just
unacceptable," said Rockefeller, the top Democrat on the Senate
Select Committee on Intelligence.

See "White House Intervenes on Behalf of Intelligence Bill," by
Mary Curtius, Los Angeles Times, November 17:

http://tinyurl.com/4yqlz

The 9/11 Commission said that strengthening congressional
oversight, not stripping it away, was among its most important
recommendations (Final Report, p. 419).


CLARKE TESTIMONY FROM 2002 DECLASSIFIED

Classified testimony on the threat from Al Qaeda that was
presented by then-White House adviser Richard A. Clarke in 2002
to the Congressional Joint Inquiry into September 11 was
declassified and posted yesterday on the web site of the Senate
Intelligence Committee.

A copy of the declassified transcript (103 pages, 3 MB PDF file)
is here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2002_hr/061102clarke.pdf


MORE NGA WITHDRAWALS FROM THE PUBLIC DOMAIN

The National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA) paid the
public the courtesy today of announcing more withdrawals of
unclassified information from the public domain.

"The National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA) intends to
remove its Flight Information Publications (FLIP), Digital
Aeronautical Flight Information File (DAFIF), and related
aeronautical safety of navigation digital and hardcopy
publications from public sale and distribution," the agency
stated in a Federal Register Notice today.

"This action is taken to accomplish the following objectives:
safeguarding the integrity of Department of Defense (DoD)
aeronautical navigation data currently available on the public
Internet; preventing unfettered access to air facility data by
those intending harm to the United States, its interests or
allies; upholding terms of bi-lateral geospatial data-sharing
agreements; avoiding competition with commercial interests; and
avoiding intellectual property/copyright disputes with foreign
agencies that provide host-nation aeronautical data."

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2004/11/nga111804.html


CYBERTERROR RUNS RAMPANT

In a parody of official threat-mongering, the British
publication The Spoof wrote this week that a Member of Congress
was closing her office because of "a possible cyberterror
attack" that could harm her staff's computers or those of her
visitors.

Last month, Sen. Mark Dayton really did close his Senate office
citing a classified threat of terrorist attack.

"Rep. Lofgren told reporters in San Jose that Senate majority
leader Bill Frist briefed lawmakers on a 'top-secret
cyberintelligence report'," according to The Spoof. "She claimed
'I would not let my two children bring a GameBoy or an Xbox to
Capitol Hill before inauguration day'."

Unexpectedly, FAS and yours truly make a cameo appearance in The
Spoof spoof.

See "Congresswoman closes office over computer threat" by Robin
Berger, The Spoof, November 16:

http://tinyurl.com/45u4r



_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
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with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

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email:  saftergood.nul
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   Nov > Nov 18

                     Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON? - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 13:06:18 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:42:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON? - Balaskas


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 07:27:51 -0800
>Subject: Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON?

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:18:13 -0600
>>Subject: Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON?

<snip>

>It would seem he's making a transition from an "armchair
>Ufologist" to one who is more active in the field.

>>His involvement is a double-edged sword. Since he is fondly
>>remembered as a satirist, lending his image to a UFO show can
>>tend to paint the field as a 'wink and a nudge' sort of area of
>>study.

>I think the "wink and nudge" attitudes fade away immediately,
>after listening and or reading about what Aykroyd has to say on
>the subject; he's a very intelligent, articulate individual, and
>is most knowledgible in the field of Ufology.

>>Of course, the fact that he is a satirist doesn't mean he can't
>>be a respected member of the community, but it does allow others
>>the ability to see the field as fit for the likes of a funnyman.
>>No disrespect intended, but it would be the same if Ray Walston
>>had announced his belief in UFOs and went on the lecture
>>circuit. What promoter could resist the headline... My Favorite
>>Martian reveals belief in UFOs!! His involvement would have
>>been welcome... but detrimental at the end of the day.

>Again, I don't doubt that there will always be those who'll poke
>fun at Aykroyd, or any comedian who publicly talks about UFOs;
>however, I think at the end of the day, those who take the time
>to listen to Aykroyd, will at the very least have more questions
>for him-serious questions.

Hi Frank and Kyle!

In addition to what you will find in Dan Aykroyd's biograpahy,
such as the one in the web site below, it is interesting to also
note that Dan has strong religious beliefs and that he first
attended a Catholic seminary. Dan continued his studies at
Ottawa's Carleton University only after he was expelled from the
seminary.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000101/bio

Those who have religious beliefs take for granted that there are
advanced beings whose domain is not the Earth by some place in
the heavens. Scientists are slowly coming around to accepting
this view too, but it is they, along with the rest of the
skeptical and unreligious members of society that are not still
ready for the eventual "big announcment" about UFOs and ETs.

Dan has a strong interest in UFOs and the occult that goes back
to at least his years at Carleton. His close friend and fellow
comedian, the late John Belushi, is quoted as saying "When Danny
and I drive cross-country, we always look for UFOs.". This is
more than what many of us "armchair" ufologists even do!

In addition to the courses mentioned in his biography, it is
also important to mention that Dan also studied psychology at
Carleton where the late psychologist/ufologist Dr. Nick Spanos
also taught. Just like the untimely and suspicious death of
Harvard University psychiatrist/ufologist Dr. John Mack, Nick
also met a similar fate just as his research findings were
convincing his colleagues and other professionals that there was
something very real and worthy of study when it came to UFOs and
alien abductions.


Nick Balaskas







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                      Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON? - Bueche

From: Will Bueche - John E Mack Institute <info.nul>>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 13:33:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:46:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON? - Bueche


>From: Steven Steve Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 07:28:53 -0500
>Subject: Re: Dan Ackroyd & MUFON?

>To my knowledge, Dan Ackroyd has not actually been involved in
>any UFO related documentaries, but I certainly could be wrong.


The Aykroyd's father and great-grandfather were, according to
some websites, "avid collectors of PSI research," "his
grandfather was a member of the Society of Psychic Research at
the turn of the century."

Dan Aykroyd was to be the host of a SciFi Channel interview
series, Dan Aykroyd's Out There, which was being produced a few
years ago by Dan and his brother Peter.

Dan Aykroyd interviewed several alien and ufo researchers for
the program in Dec 2001, but none of it was finished nor shown -
production was suspended after only a half dozen interviews
or so - i.e. SciFi Channel did one of their now well known
turnabouts, before any of the shows had been completed.

I only know this because I know John Mack did one of the
interviews, and there's a nice polaroid of John and Dan here:

http://johnemackinstitute.org/passport/images/johnmackdanaykroyd2001nyc.jpg

The taping was done at a studio in New York. It would be nice
for these interviews to be aired one day, especially with John
now being passed away and all. I guess the rights may remain
with the Aykroyd's, or they may be owned by SciFi. Probably in
legal limbo or else we'd have seen some kind of
direct-to-home- video release, I expect.

Dan Aykroyd also attended a PEER event in 1999 when John Mack's
book Passport to the Cosmos was being released. I think that was
the first time he met Mack and the first time he met Budd
Hopkins. As I recall Dan stood up during the Q&A part of the
event and boldly asked the audience how many folks would - if
given a choice - prefer to have not had the alien contact
experience, and how many would have. So he wasn't shy, but also
was a totally normal guy.

...IMO he was great in Gross Point Blank, BTW.








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                           Another Salla Exo Paper

From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 11:07:26 +0000 (GMT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:49:33 -0500
Subject: Another Salla Exo Paper


He=92s back!

Dr. Michael Salla with another Exo paper;

The Emergence of =91Track Two=92 Galactic Diplomacy with
Extraterrestrial Races -- The Role of Private Citizens & Groups
in Establishing Communications & Agreements With
Extraterrestrial Races:

http://www.galacticdiplomacy.com/GD-Art-1.htm








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                      Ozone Hole Leaves Aliens Gasping

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:53:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:53:34 -0500
Subject: Ozone Hole Leaves Aliens Gasping




Source: The ABC Network - Australia

http://abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s1243990.htm


11-17-04


Ozone Hole Leaves Aliens Gasping
Heather Catchpole
ABC Science Online

Aliens might not leave telltale traces of ozone on planets
orbiting distant stars, say U.S. researchers, potentially making
the hunt for life in other solar systems even harder.

The researchers say that ozone, once thought to be a sure sign
of life on other planets, could be produced in other ways.

Graduate student Brian Thomas from the University of Kansas was
lead author of the research, which involved a NASA scientist.

It was published on the physics website arXiv, which is owned
and operated by Cornell University in Ithaca, New York.

The ozone research has implications for space missions set to
take off within 10 years in search of evidence for alien life by
analysing the atmospheres of extrasolar planets.

Missions such as the European Space Agency's Darwin mission and
NASA's Terrestrial Planet Finder will try to detect gases in
distant atmospheres by looking at the way light from the star
behind passes through the planet's atmosphere. Different gases
absorb certain wavelengths of light in characteristic ways.

Astronomers hope to detect ozone in these atmospheres, a gas
most scientists believe indicates oxygen, a by-product of life.

But the researchers said ozone could be produced without life.

They said this could happen if the planet's atmosphere was
originally rich in carbon dioxide, like the atmosphere of Venus,
and like Earth's atmosphere was before life evolved.

Carbon dioxide could react with nitrogen to make free oxygen,
leading to ozone production, the researchers said.

They used a mathematical model to calculate the amount of ozone
such a planet would create and found it could make up to four
times more ozone than currently found on Earth.

Marion Anderson, an Australian geologist from Monash University
in Melbourne, and part of the team that picked the landing site
for the Mars rover Opportunity, said the paper was interesting
and exciting.

Previously scientists had assumed that if there was any ozone
there must be life, Anderson told ABC Science Online. "This
paper is saying be careful about that."

While other scientists had also warned about using ozone as a
biomarker, she said this was the first paper to provide a reason
for being cautious.

Australian expert on extrasolar planets Dr Brad Carter, from the
University of Southern Queensland, agreed the finding would make
researchers more cautious.

"[But ozone was] absolutely the best of all the biomarkers," he
said. "I wouldn't go so far as to say we would throw it out."

Carter said oxygen was a highly reactive gas that if left to its
own devices would soon combine with something else.

"The only process we understand that produces a strong signature
of oxygen is life," he said.

"Sure we have to be careful but if you have enormous quantities
of oxygen and hence a very strong ozone signal, it's certainly
good evidence for life existing on a hypothetical extrasolar
planet."


[UFO UpDates thanks Stuart Miller for the lead]






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                      Major Conference On Crashed UFOs

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 15:00:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 15:00:55 -0500
Subject: Major Conference On Crashed UFOs




Source: Phenomena Magazine - UK

http://www.phenomenamagazine.com/0/editorial.asp?aff_id=3D0&this_cat=3DArea+=
51&action=3Dpage&obj_id=3D1994


11-18-04

Crash!
Major Conference On Crashed UFOs
Roswell Hits Las Vegas


By: Nick Redfern
By: US Editor-in-Chief

Organized by researcher and author Ryan Wood, the 2nd Annual UFO
Crash Retrieval Conference was a groundbreaking event with a
truly astonishing amount of new data revealed to what was a
certainly a large audience.

My own lecture kicked off the conference on the morning of
Saturday, 13 November (which itself followed a Friday night
meet-the-speakers/question-and-answer event), and was an
illustrated history of alleged crashed UFO reports spanning both
the decades and the globe. But it is the rest of the lectures
that I really want to discuss.

Jim Marrs gave a fascinating and in-depth presentation on a case
that many have seen fit to dismiss without question =96 the so-
called UFO crash at the town of Aurora, Texas just before the
dawning of the 20th century. So the story goes, states Jim:
"April 17, 1897, dawned clear and cool in North Texas when out
of the south came a large silver cigar-shaped object dropping
lower and lower as it approached the small hamlet of Aurora,
Texas, less than 20 miles northwest of Fort Worth. There it
struck a windmill and exploded scattering debris =96 and at least
one small body =96 in all directions." There can be no doubt that
aspects of the story stretch the imagination to the limit =96 such
as the townsfolk allegedly burying the "little man" in the local
graveyard =96 but Marrs presented what was certainly a large and
impressive array of interviews, newspaper clippings and data
that he =96 as a local to the area himself =96 had uncovered during
his career as a journalist and author. And while resolving this
case to everyone=92s satisfaction is unlikely given the fact that
it occurred more than a century ago, it seems that Marrs=92 work
has breathed new life into the case that might at least lead to
a new appreciation of the story and the possibility that there
might be something to it after all.

Arguably the most famous collector and disseminator of crashed
UFO stories was the Ohio-based researcher, Leonard Stringfield,
who died in 1994. Stringfield was the author of 2 books on UFOs
and he penned 7 "Status Reports" on his findings into the
crashed UFO controversy. Dr. Bob Wood presented a meticulously
researched paper that delved deep into the work of Stringfield,
analyzing his reports, cases, witness testimony and seeking out
corroboration for the accounts in question. If you are aware of
=96 and are interested in - Stringfield=92s crashed UFO legacy, then
I would urge you to obtain a copy of the official Proceedings
that accompany the conference, which contains the full text of
Bob Wood=92s (and indeed everyone else=92s) presentation.

My good friend Paul Kimball is a respected TV director and
producer living in Canada. I first met Paul in 2003 at Aztec,
New Mexico when we were both lecturing there. A friendly guy
with a great sense of humor, Paul focused his presentation upon
a case that he has been researching intently and that is the
subject of a new video production from Paul=92s company - Redstar
Films Ltd. That case is the notorious alleged UFO crash at
Aztec, New Mexico in 1948. Like the Aurora story of 1897, Aztec
has been variously dissected, championed, discarded, derided,
resurrected and promoted by a whole range of researchers. But
Paul =96 to his credit =96 recognized that the Aztec case was
certainly an intriguing one in spite of the controversy, stuck
to his guns and delved deep into the story and gave what I
consider to be the most entertaining lecture of the day. I=92ll be
reviewing his video on Aztec later this week.

Peter Robbins =96 co-author of the book, Left At East Gate
provided (as always) a first-class presentation on the famous
event at Rendlesham Forest, Suffolk, England, in December 1980,
when "something" was seen in the forest by numerous military
personnel. Meticulously researched, Peter=92s presentation was
hard-hitting, always on target and leaves me in no doubt that
whatever happened at Rendlesham it involved far more than
sightings of lighthouses, imagination-run-wild and
misidentification, as the skeptics would have us accept.

Grant Cameron of Canada delivered two lectures, one on his
investigation =96 and attempts to obtain =96 classified film footage
of UFOs held by the military and one on his research into
crashed saucers, which was impressively supported by both
official documentation and on-the-record testimony. Ron Regehr=92s
presentation was both unique and highly informative as it
related to his analysis of photographs related to the Roswell
controversy; and Chuck Wade gave a fascinating and very personal
lecture concerning his family=92s links with the Roswell story,
some of the key players in the case, and his current attempts to
try and locate and analyze debris from the crashes that may
still lie buried within the sands of the New Mexico desert.

David Pace looked at the seldom-discussed area of alleged UFO
crashes in the former Soviet Union; Linda Howe=92s lecture delved
back into the early days of UFO encounters near the White Sands
Missile Range, New Mexico, and revealed hitherto unknown data on
alleged =96 and hostile =96 UFO confrontations; Don Ledger presented
a talk on his in-depth research into the famous Shag Harbor UFO
crash case of 1967 (one that is the subject of an impressive
body of official documentation and that is also the subject of
Don=92s book, Dark Object); Paul Davids =96 Executive Producer and
co-Writer of the Showtime movie, Roswell =96 presented an
excellent overview of the Roswell story that was detailed,
personal, and highly revealing (particularly for those new to
the subject); and conference organizer Ryan Wood concluded the
event with a lecture on the controversial area of suspicious
deaths within the UFO subject.

Coupled with a large audience, a gala dinner (that was followed
by a keynote speech from Stephen Bassett, founder of Paradigm
Research Group), and with downtown Vegas only a short journey
away, this was a weekend that I would not have missed.

Ryan Wood intends making this a yearly event, and urges anyone
with information on the issue of crashed UFOs to contact him at
his website:


www.majesticdocuments.com

Those wanting to obtain high-quality DVDs of the conference
presentations and/or copies of the official conference
Proceedings, can do so at the website, too.


[UFO UpDates thanks Stuart Miller for the lead]









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   Nov > Nov 19

                       Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON? - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:40:19 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 07:21:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON? - King


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 06:46:45 -0600
>Subject: Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON?

><snip>

>Mr. Aykroyd is likely just another of us sucked into the
>cultivated information void and our numbers might be plussed
>positively for his inclusion.  You can't fault the Elephant Man
>for having an interest in Elephantiasis, Sir. <g>


Hi Alfred,

Refreshing, and on-target. I fully agree with your assessment.

Being one of 'Vic's' fans for some time, I think his intellect
more than honors the ufological environs. Cleverness and a quick
wit are always needed in this field. His contributions, even if
only monetary, would be more than is garnered from most. That he
is willing to publicly advocate as much reveals a quality we
could all admire.

The failed point of view to which I referred was not one which I
share, but sadly, one I have observed and to which I have been
subjected. My great lament is that it is a point of view that I am
loathe but resigned to suspect is rampant if recent events
inform.

I hope that I am wrong. If my post was less efficacious than it
could have been, perhaps I am still just pouting. Apologies...

Kyle







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   Nov > Nov 19

                     Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 13:48:43 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 07:28:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Tonnies


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 05:13:11 EST
>Subject: Board An 'Alien' Craft?

>Well, if you got the invitation to board an alien
>craft, would you?

Yes.

>I'll explain later why I'm posting this. You wouldn't believe
>it right now.

Let me guess - you got invited?

>There are several vintage tv shows that should have had an
>episode where the main characters got abducted.

>I Love Lucy, Get Smart, The Odd Couple, Beverly Hillbillies.

You forgot "Seinfeld"!

>Bottom line is, would you have the guts to voluntarily board an
>alien craft if invited?

Yes, I would. Definitely. Even if it meant that I might not come
back, even if I knew it might be dangerous.

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot.nul)

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com

New book: "After the Martian Apocalypse"

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/074348293X








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                       Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON? - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:48:54 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 08:37:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON? - King


>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 13:06:18 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
>Subject: Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON?

>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 07:27:51 -0800
>>Subject: Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON?

>>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:18:13 -0600
>>>Subject: Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON?

><snip>

>Hi Frank and Kyle!

<snip>

>In addition to the courses mentioned in his biography, it is
>also important to mention that Dan also studied psychology at
>Carleton where the late psychologist/ufologist Dr. Nick Spanos
>also taught. Just like the untimely and suspicious death of
>Harvard University psychiatrist/ufologist Dr. John Mack, Nick
>also met a similar fate just as his research findings were
>convincing his colleagues and other professionals that there was
>something very real and worthy of study when it came to UFOs and
>alien abductions.


Hi Nick and Frank,

Excellent post Frank, and I sincerely hope that time proves you
right. My pessimism is perhaps unwarranted, and colored by my
still aching psyche.

On the heels of the huge Monday Night Football bruhaha,
following up an electoral culture-shock beyond belief, maybe I'm
just seeing through dimmed shades. Again, I sincerely hope that
Mr. Aykroyd's voice helps to shed some much needed light.

Nick, the background info is fascinating, and explains both a
source of his humor as well as his interest in things 'beyond'.
Kudos.


Best Regards,

Kyle







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                      Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON? - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:31:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 08:41:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON? - Velez


>From: Will Bueche - John E Mack Institute <info.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 13:33:50 -0500
>Subject: Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON?

>>From: Steven Steve Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 07:28:53 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON?

>>To my knowledge, Dan Aykroyd has not actually been involved in
>>any UFO related documentaries, but I certainly could be wrong.

>The Aykroyd's father and great-grandfather were, according to
>some websites, "avid collectors of PSI research," "his
>grandfather was a member of the Society of Psychic Research at
>the turn of the century."

>Dan Aykroyd was to be the host of a SciFi Channel interview
>series, Dan Aykroyd's Out There, which was being produced a few
>years ago by Dan and his brother Peter.

>Dan Aykroyd interviewed several alien and ufo researchers for
>the program in Dec 2001, but none of it was finished nor shown -
>production was suspended after only a half dozen interviews
>or so - i.e. SciFi Channel did one of their now well known
>turnabouts, before any of the shows had been completed.

>I only know this because I know John Mack did one of the
>interviews, and there's a nice polaroid of John and Dan here:

>http://johnemackinstitute.org/passport/images/johnmackdanaykroyd2001nyc.jpg

>The taping was done at a studio in New York. It would be nice
>for these interviews to be aired one day, especially with John
>now being passed away and all. I guess the rights may remain
>with the Aykroyd's, or they may be owned by SciFi. Probably in
>legal limbo or else we'd have seen some kind of
>direct-to-home-video release, I expect.

>Dan Aykroyd also attended a PEER event in 1999 when John Mack's
>book Passport to the Cosmos was being released.

Hiya Will, All,

You wrote:

>I think that was
>the first time he met Mack and the first time he met Budd
>Hopkins.

I almost didn't respond to this post because I didn't wish to
betray any confidences I may not be aware of. Considering Dan
has been 'out' about his UFO interests I suppose it won't do any
harm.

In the late 70's when Dan was in New York City writing and
starring in Saturday Night Live, he and two other SNL cast
members whose names I will not mention, used to 'pal around'
occasionally with Budd Hopkins. Budd's relationship/acquaintance
with Dan goes back many decades now. In fact, about five years
ago Budd found out that Dan was in New York for some project or
other and he was trying (in vain) to get an invitation to Dan
(through his representatives) to spend a few hours at his studio
here in NY as his dinner guest.

I was psyched about it because I would have been invited and had
a chance to shake hands with one of my all time favorite funny-
men - not to mention my favorite 'Blues Brother!


Warm regards to all... back to lurking!  ;)

John Velez
Former Webmaster
Intruders Foundation







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                          Re: UFO Webcam - LeClair

From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 21:50:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:11:02 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Webcam - LeClair


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:21:15 -0500
>Subject: Re: UFO Webcam

<snip>

>To avoid having to watch miles of videotape hoping there might
>be a UFO there, is there a computer program available that can
>analyze videotape and capture segments with possible UFOs? Such
>captured segments would of course include some aircraft, but I
>would think this would be a great adjunct to a UFO webcam.

>If no such analysis program is available, is anyone interested
>in working on one? I'd suspect that CUFOS might have some
>interest in such a project. Betcha the U.S. government has one.


Not sure. I am always present with my camera in case I see
somthing strange I can zoom in, out, and follow the object etc.

My ultimate goal is to stake out at an alledged abductees house
with my cameras. None in my area according to MUFON last I
checked. Plus they don't give out that info they told me. I live
in Charlotte NC. If anyone out there knows of anyone that may be
having on-going abductions, and that they would be willing to
have someone sit out in their car parked near their home with a
cam-corder and camera. Let me know. This sort of thing doesn't
happen often enough, and if one were to catch a close encounter,
alien abduction on tape, this would be very good evidence. Hard
to fake one. If any abduction researchers out there are reading
this keep me in mind. Or, I could lend some cameras and my
camcorder with night vision to anyone that is able to do this
sort of thing.







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                     Re: Board An Alien Craft? - LeClair

From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 00:06:54 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:12:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft? - LeClair


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 05:13:11 EST
>Subject: Board An 'Alien' Craft?

<snip>

>Bottom line is, would you have the guts to voluntarily board an
>alien craft if invited?

Depends on my mood at the time and what their intentions would
be. Would it be greys, or somthing different?

Most likely I would say yes, but only if I could video tape it.
No point in going on board since I already met the aliens and
seen the craft since it is they that invite me right? I would
already know that they exist then and see no reason for an anal
probe, unless they agree that it is ok to video tape them, and
their craft etc. I wouldn't want the anal probe on tape though.

In short, yes, only if I could tape it, or get a piece of the
craft to bring back etc.







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                     Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON? - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 00:26:47 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:15:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON? - Maccabee


>From: Will Bueche - John E Mack Institute <info.nul>>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 13:33:50 -0500
>Subject: Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON?

>>From: Steven Steve Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 07:28:53 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Dan Aykroyd & MUFON?

>>To my knowledge, Dan Aykroyd has not actually been involved in
>>any UFO related documentaries, but I certainly could be wrong.

<snip>

>Dan Aykroyd interviewed several alien and ufo researchers for
>the program in Dec 2001, but none of it was finished nor shown -
>production was suspended after only a half dozen interviews
>or so - i.e. SciFi Channel did one of their now well known
>turnabouts, before any of the shows had been completed.

>I only know this because I know John Mack did one of the
>interviews, and there's a nice polaroid of John and Dan here:

>http://johnemackinstitute.org/passport/images/johnmackdanaykroyd2001nyc.jpg

>The taping was done at a studio in New York. It would be nice
>for these interviews to be aired one day, especially with John
>now being passed away and all. I guess the rights may remain
>with the Aykroyd's, or they may be owned by SciFi. Probably in
>legal limbo or else we'd have seen some kind of
>.direct-to-home- video release, I expect.

I was one of the interviewees for that aborted show. Aykroyd did
not interview me personally, however. The interviewer was the
producer or some such (I don't recall exactly). I think I was
interviewed in early January. 2002.







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                        Re: Mack The Life - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 00:27:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:17:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Mack The Life - Maccabee


>From: Will Bueche - John E Mack Institute <info.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 11:32:45 -0500
>Subject: Mack The Life

>Mack The Life - Memorial in Cambridge and San Francisco

>Source: The Boston Phoenix
>November 19 - 25, 2004
>p. 24

>Mack, The Life

>In snubbing professor John Mack's memorial, 'official Harvard'
>testifies to the power of his brilliant unconventionality

>By
>Harvey A. Silverglate

<snip>

>But Harvard's narrower - and narrow-minded - thinkers looked at
>Mack's approach as violating the medical school's professional-
>research standards (although in fact it was their world-view
>that he challenged). Given the opportunity either to renounce
>his views or to resign from the faculty, Mack instead fought a
>bitter battle with a committee that was obviously stacked
>against him. The committee's report was scathing in its critique
>of Mack, ignoring virtually everything that he and his lead
>lawyer, Boston litigator Roderick MacLeish Jr., had produced not
>only to support his work and his successful clinical results,
>but to highlight his right, under principles of academic
f>reedom, to continue his research unhindered by the university.
>(Disclosure: I served as an informal legal adviser to Mack at
>the time.)

I was asked by a lawyer (Sheehan?) to provide any help I could
at the time of Mack's 'trials and tribulations'. I sent a
package of writings that supported Mack's study of abductees by
arguing for the reality of unexplainable UFO sightings and how
they could be related to abduction cases.







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                    Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 00:27:38 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:18:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Maccabee


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 05:13:11 EST
>Subject: Board An 'Alien' Craft?


>Well, if you got the invitation to board an alien craft, would
>you?

>I'll explain later why I'm posting this. You wouldn't believe it
>right now.

>There are several vintage tv shows that should have had an
>episode where the main characters got abducted.

>I Love Lucy, Get Smart, The Odd Couple, Beverly Hillbillies.

>Just to name a few.

>Bottom line is, would you have the guts to voluntarily board an
>alien craft if invited?


Sure, well... maybe, if they promised to give me a nice, solid,
safe, unearthly momento of my visit (a chunk of unknownium, for
example); not just a lousy "I visited the Twilight Zone" T shirt







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                 Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Holman

From: Brett Holman <b.holman.nul>
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:55:16 +1100
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:21:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Holman


>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:43:12 -0500
>Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI

>Quantum "particles" are not particles in the usual sense of the
>word.

Well, they are particles in the usual sense of quantum
mechanics, so it's perfectly proper to describe them as such!

>Quarks, leptons, and newer constituents of the atom are either
>waves or evanescent elementals which seem to have the property
>of particles but are not particles.

If you are going to say they have the properties of particles
but aren't particles, you'd also have to say they have the
properties of waves but aren't waves either. They're both, or
neither ...

Actually, they are neither particles nor waves, but projections
of a state vector rotating through Hilbert space. (This may
require a re-definition of the word "actually", though!) The
truth is that trying to understand quantum mechanics in terms of
classical concepts like particles and waves can only get you so
far.

>"Massless particles" is an oxymoron.

No, it's not. Not in physics, anyway ...

>No one knows what quantum artifacts are, but that they travel
>over vast distances, abutting or "entangling" with other like-
>artifacts, is not disputed.

They do indeed entangle, and the strangeness and importance of
this should not be downplayed. But Larry is quite right, no
information can be transmitted by quantum entanglement. At
least, that's our best understanding today; future research may
change that.

>The "spin" you allude to is actually the quantum particle -
>not an attribute of the particle.

Hmm, no, spin is indeed an attribute of a particle - it can have
either spin up or spin down - and this can change for a given
particle. You may be thinking of the spin *number*, which is a
constant for a given type of particle. (Eg, electrons have spin
1/2, and so an individual electron can have either spin +1/2
or spin -1/2 - spin up or spin down.)


Brett Holman







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                          Down To Earth Newsletter

From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:52:25 -0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:25:27 -0500
Subject: Down To Earth Newsletter


Hi All,

If anyone would like to subscribe to the monthly e-mail
newsletter Down To Earth Magazine, then simply contact me at the
address, below, and key in SUBSCRIBE UFO DTE MAG as the Subject: .

dteufomag.nul

This month's has just been sent out, so newbie's will receive it.


Thanks,

Roy







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                'Hudson Valley UFO Sightings' Doc Duo Jailed

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:32:22 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:32:22 -0500
Subject: 'Hudson Valley UFO Sightings' Doc Duo Jailed




Source: The Journal News - White Plains, New York

http://www.nynews.com/newsroom/111904/b0119lauriolas.html

11-19-04


Husband and wife sentenced for theft

By Timothy O'connor
The Journal News

NEW YORK =97 A New Rochelle couple were sentenced to federal
prison yesterday for stealing more than $6 million from the
wife's employer.

Wendie Lauriola, 55, was sentenced to 54 months in prison by
U.S. District Judge Richard J. Holwell. Her husband Salvatore,
also 55, was sentenced to 44 months.

The Lauriolas fled to Costa Rica in June 2003 as the government
was preparing charges against them, federal officials said.

Wendie Lauriola stole the money over a 10-year period, much of
it winding up in the account of her husband's film-production
company, Lauri Enterprises, which produced such films as, UFO
File: The Hudson Valley UFO Sightings. Wendie Lauriola was the
sole employee of Troon Management company, a real estate
management firm owned by Noel Levine.

She forged Levine's signature on checks drawn on the firm's
account, admitting her crimes to Levine after he confronted her
with a forged canceled check for $15,000, according to a
criminal complaint filed in federal court in Manhattan. Wendie
Lauriola also admitted she used two forged checks for $200,000
each to pay for a new home for the couple in Charleston, S.C.

Last July, Westchester County police seized the Lauriolas' home
at 473 Quaker Ridge Road to satisfy a state court judgment that
found Salvatore Lauriola $4 million in debt to creditors.

The Lauriolas were arrested by border patrol agents as they
crossed the Mexican border into Arizona in January.

The couple pleaded guilty in May to conspiracy to defraud the
United States, bank fraud, and interstate transport of stolen
monies.

In addition to the prison sentences, the Lauriolas were also
ordered to pay $6.1 million in restitution.

Lawyers for the couple did not return calls seeking comment.







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                    Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 10:43:48 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:47:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Lehmberg


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 05:13:11 EST
>Subject: Board An 'Alien' Craft?

>Bottom line is, would you have the guts to voluntarily board an
>alien craft if invited?

Jeez Mr. Boone, I'd almost have to... just to honor the
shoulders on which I presently stand.


alienview.nul  -:=A6:-
   www.AlienView.net







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                          Re: UFO Webcam - LeClair

From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 21:50:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 14:07:10 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Webcam - LeClair


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:21:15 -0500
>Subject: Re: UFO Webcam

<snip>

>To avoid having to watch miles of videotape hoping there might
>be a UFO there, is there a computer program available that can
>analyze videotape and capture segments with possible UFOs? Such
>captured segments would of course include some aircraft, but I
>would think this would be a great adjunct to a UFO webcam.

>If no such analysis program is available, is anyone interested
>in working on one? I'd suspect that CUFOS might have some
>interest in such a project. Betcha the U.S. government has one.


Not sure. I am always present with my camera in case I see
somthing strange I can zoom in, out, and follow the object etc.

My ultimate goal is to stake out at an alledged abductees house
with my cameras. None in my area according to MUFON last I
checked. Plus they don't give out that info they told me. I live
in Charlotte NC. If anyone out there knows of anyone that may be
having on-going abductions, and that they would be willing to
have someone sit out in their car parked near their home with a
cam-corder and camera. Let me know. This sort of thing doesn't
happen often enough, and if one were to catch a close encounter,
alien abduction on tape, this would be very good evidence. Hard
to fake one. If any abduction researchers out there are reading
this keep me in mind. Or, I could lend some cameras and my
camcorder with night vision to anyone that is able to do this
sort of thing.





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                     Hello! Is There Anybody Out There?

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 06:59:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 06:59:37 -0500
Subject: Hello! Is There Anybody Out There?




Source: The Daily Herald-Tribune - Grande Prairie, Alberta

http://www.dailyheraldtribune.com/Z10_00bUFOs1119.lasso

11-19-04


Hello! Is There Anybody Out There?

by Neal Talbot
Herald-Tribune Staff

Girouxville - A loud humming noise breaks the silence of night,
causing Ron Cloutier's dogs to bark crazily, and announces the
arrival of Unidentified Flying Objects in the Girouxville
skyline.

The skin-tingling X-Files-like scene has haunted Cloutier over
the last five months, as he is awakened to watch strange lights
and shapes cutting through the darkness above his home.

The appearance of the unexplained objects has deeply shaken the
41-year-old oilfield trucker.

"It's really disturbing to witness something like this and not
know what it is," he said. "It's bothering enough to see this
once, but it happens all the time now... and it gives me the
creeps."

In hopes of having the objects identified, Cloutier has been
carefully recording their appearance with precise times and
dates through film, photos and his notebook since they began
appearing in mid-July. Thus far he has received no answers as to
what they may be.

The longtime UFO nonbeliever says he has seen up to four objects
in the sky at one time, appearing from the north, and moving
eastward until they all disappear.

Approximately 150 kilometres southwest of Cloutier's home,
Grande Prairie resident Beverly Kettner admits she too has
witnessed a UFO-like object move erratically through the night's
sky on at least three occasions.

"Over the last couple of months I've watched what first looked
to be a star dart across the sky and stop dead in its tracks,
start up again, then stop and then finally disappear," said
Kettner.

"It wasn't a plane, satellite or shooting star... it didn't
appear to be anything from this world."

Especially unsettling for Kettner is that her four-year old
daughter has recently discussed late-night conversations with
alien-like people. She says the girl describes the stereotypical
short, grey large-headed alien without having ever seen them on
television or read about them in storybooks.

The sightings reported by Cloutier and Kettner are part of a
record number of Albertans who have reported possible UFO
activity in 2004.

UFOlogy Research of Manitoba numbers show Alberta has already
broken last year's UFO sighting record of 76 with more than a
month left in the year.

Canadian UFO researcher Brian Vike says a growing social
acceptance to the unexplained has made Albertans more willing to
report potential sightings.

"The acceptance of UFOs into popular culture, increased media
attention, and the discovery of new planets in the galaxy have
all helped convince people it's OK to come forward with
unexplainable sightings," said Vike, who from his home in
Houston, B.C., maintains a website tracking Canadian UFO
sightings.

Vike points out Albertans have reported seeing triangular,
round, square and glowing flying objects, an unusual beam of
light enveloping an unidentified figure and claims of missing
and stopped time so far this year. Those reports come from
nearly every section of the province including metropolitan
Edmonton and Calgary.

Former High Prairie resident and UFOlogist Rick MacDonald points
to a 2001 poll by Leger Marketing suggesting 40.7 per cent of
Alberta residents believe in aliens - the highest of any
province - as an example that Albertans are starting to believe.

"More people then ever before are looking at the existence of
UFOs and aliens as a real possibility," said MacDonald, whose
Disclosure Project group claims Canadian and American
governments already know of alien existence.

"After watching UFO sightings on TV and reading sighting reports
from hundreds of Albertans on the Internet, disbelief is
dwindling."

The increased sightings and growing acceptance of UFOs are both
positive steps towards finally unveiling proof of
extraterrestrial life, says Alberta UFO Study Group member Jim
Moroney.

"There is now enough solid evidence from reputable people in
Alberta and across the globe to support the idea we are being
visited," said Moroney, who spent the last 18 years
investigating Alberta UFO sightings.

"It is now just a matter of time now before we'll be able to
prove the existence of UFOs."






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                Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Reynolds

From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:51:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 07:03:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Reynolds


>From: Brett Holman <b.holman.nul>
>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:55:16 +1100
>Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI

>>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:43:12 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI

>>Quantum "particles" are not particles in the usual sense of the
>>word.

>Well, they are particles in the usual sense of quantum
>mechanics, so it's perfectly proper to describe them as such!

>>Quarks, leptons, and newer constituents of the atom are either
>>waves or evanescent elementals which seem to have the property
>>of particles but are not particles.

>If you are going to say they have the properties of particles
>but aren't particles, you'd also have to say they have the
>properties of waves but aren't waves either. They're both, or
>neither ...

>Actually, they are neither particles nor waves, but projections
>of a state vector rotating through Hilbert space. (This may
>require a re-definition of the word "actually", though!) The
>truth is that trying to understand quantum mechanics in terms of
>classical concepts like particles and waves can only get you so

<snip>

Brett, and others...

I might refer you to Nick Herbert's "Quantum Reality" (a 1985
book) which makes the points I outlined.

(You can google Nick Herbert, as Larry Hatch has, to see his
ample credentials.)

The attributes of quantum "particles" make then neither waves
nor particles, and something totally foreign to description,
like God.

And "entanglement" doesn't mean, according to some Quantum
theorists (Fritjof Capra, Paul Davies, John Wheeler), an
intangible intertwining.

It (actually) means that the "particles" physically embrace.
(Freeman Dyson)

But I defer to your views, Brett, and Larry, since the "matter"
is still as mysterious and unexplained as "flying saucers."


As always, thanks for the enlightening response,

Rich Reynolds







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                      Re: Board An Alien Craft? - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:17:03 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 07:04:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft? - King


>From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 00:06:54 -0500
>Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft?

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 05:13:11 EST
>>Subject: Board An 'Alien' Craft?

><snip>

>>Bottom line is, would you have the guts to voluntarily board an
>>alien craft if invited?

>Depends on my mood at the time and what their intentions would
>be. Would it be greys, or somthing different?

>Most likely I would say yes, but only if I could video tape it.
>No point in going on board since I already met the aliens and
>seen the craft since it is they that invite me right? I would
>already know that they exist then and see no reason for an anal
>probe, unless they agree that it is ok to video tape them, and
>their craft etc. I wouldn't want the anal probe on tape though.

>In short, yes, only if I could tape it, or get a piece of the
>craft to bring back etc.

Hi Aaron and Greg,

I applaud your assumption that you_and your tape_would make it
back home. Watch out for the Kanamit ferry!! An anal probe could
be just a fancy meat thermometer.

Since videotape is faked all the time, and UFO parts would
likely be made of some really common mineral like silicon or
quartz, I think I'd agree only if I could choose 3 people to
witness my departure. Maybe a scientist, a policeman, and a
school teacher. None would know each other, and each would have
to witness my departure separately...they wouldn't know there
were other witnesses. They would be allowed to record the event
in any way they chose. They could each take an artifact if they
chose.

After I was gone, they would be free to choose what to do with
the information. Perhaps they would find each other, perhaps
not. Perhaps they'd be diagnosed as having had a group
hallucination. Perhaps they would convince lots of people that
what they witnessed really happened. Perhaps not. Perhaps the
artifacts would be of some exotic unearthly alloy which would
provide solid evidence. Perhaps it would just be a lump of
quartz or a device so advanced that it appeared to be something
completely inert and unimpressive...like a block of wood.

With all the evidence to date, and the many thousands of
sightees, abductees, contactees of every color, race, socio-
economic strata, etc., and yet the continuing marginalization of
the honest effort to prove the UFO hypothesis, what would it
take to prove to the world that I had actually left the earth
with ETs, and that I didn't just get snuffed and stuffed into a
freezer, to be shipped off to a storage facility for 16 years or
so? Or something like that.

Your videotape might convince some, but I think the ETs would
have to hold a press conference or something before the masses
would believe it.

And as James Smith has so vociferously pointed out, even if the
ETs wanted to do so, those in power would immediately take steps
to stop it or, if unsuccessful, produce reams of evidence to
prove that it was an elaborate hoax.

For my 3 witnesses *and myself should I return*, what would be
required for us to be able to convince the world that we were
telling the truth?

Without knowing the answer to that question, I think I'd go just
for the awesome visuals from the porthole... Kanamits or no.


Best Regards,

Kyle







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                           Of Cooper Oberg & Cohen

From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen.nul>
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:12:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 07:09:52 -0500
Subject: Of Cooper Oberg & Cohen


Hello again fellow List members,

Last month, in discussions resulting from Gordon Cooper's
passing, Alfred Lehmberg responded to a Jim Oberg post in which
Jim had mentioned a June 26th, 2003 article Jim had written as a
response to my web site treatment of Jim's In Search Of Gordon
Cooper's UFOs.

Alfred's post is located at:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/oct/m25-012.shtml


Jim's In Search Of... article was one of the original stimuli
for the creation of my site - URL at the bottom of this post.

Interestingly, I have been waiting for this response from Jim
since February 1998, when he first discovered my site's
existence but refused to engage in any real discussion regarding
same.

At long last we are finally able to see his criticisms of what I
wrote and I can respond to them on a point-by-point basis. If
anyone out there originally found my site a bit daunting to read
because of its length, I am now able to narrow that focus
specifically to what Jim has to say about it.

Those that take the time to read my response will find it puts
Jim's arguments regarding Gordon Cooper into sharp focus and
points out some of their major flaws. I believe you will find,
as Alfred said, the case Jim makes against Gordon Cooper isn't
nearly as strong as he would like us to believe.

Both Jim's criticisms and my response are located at:

http://www.cohenufo.org/obergsiterebut_7d.htm

For the sake of those comparing Jim's June 2003 criticism
against what I recently had to say about it, his original copy
is located at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UFORL/message/1778


Respectfully,

Jerry Cohen

http://www.cohenufo.org/







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                    Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Dickenson

From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul>
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 17:58:09 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 07:11:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Dickenson


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 05:13:11 EST
>Subject: Board An 'Alien' Craft?

>Bottom line is, would you have the guts to voluntarily board an
>alien craft if invited?

Greg, I hope I'd say "Yes" - regardless of whether occupants
were tentacled or humanoid or whatever.

But - it might not be a case of 'guts' - facing a known danger.

Has anyone ever had that back-of-the-neck feeling, in apparently
innocuous situation, that "elsewhere is a better place just
now"?

[not confrontation situs - e.g. once, having accidentally
(foolishly) gotten surrounded by a troop of wild baboons, each
one capable of ripping me apart, subconscious merely said "relax
- they're only folk, and as nervous as you are"]

Tend to heed those subconscious OKs or warnings, so it might
depend on the vibes.


Cheers

Ray D

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Perceptions" http://www.perceptions.couk.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Nov > Nov 20

                      Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:13:01 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 07:14:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Hall


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 10:43:48 -0600
>Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft?

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 05:13:11 EST
>>Subject: Board An 'Alien' Craft?

>>Bottom line is, would you have the guts to voluntarily board an
>>alien craft if invited?

>Jeez Mr. Boone, I'd almost have to... just to honor the
>shoulders on which I presently stand.

I think the first thing that needs to be said on this thread is
that, according to my extensive research and that of others, you
are not normally 'invited'. You are taken whether you like it or
not. So although it may be fun to speculate on how you would
react to confronting an alien who acts like a character in a
benign science fiction movie and politely invites you on board,
that is not the reality that 99% of experiencers have faced.

My research causes me to conclude that if I ever encountered a
landed UFO-craft at close range, I would - in the language of
American Civil War soldiers - skedaddle.


 - Dick







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Nov > Nov 20

                     Disclosure Australia Newsletter #18

From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul>
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 08:34:51 +1000
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 07:27:58 -0500
Subject: Disclosure Australia Newsletter #18


Hi Everyone,

The team in South Australia have been very busy gathering
information from the Australian Government with regard to UFO
files and reports. This newsletter is longer than usual but well
worth the read.

-----

Disclosure Australia Newsletter 18.
AUSTRALIAN SECURITY INTELLIGENCE
ORGANISATION UFO RELATED FILE LOCATED

In Newsletter 8 we reported that in response to a request for
any files held by ASIO on a number of early Australian UFO
groups, including the Queensland Flying Saucer Research Bureau,
ASIO=B9s response was "A check of our indices has failed to locate
any open or closed period records with respect to the above
named subject."

The reason we had included the Queensland Flying Saucer Research
Bureau in our request was because in 1958 Stan Seers, then
President of the Queensland Flying Saucer Research Bureau met
someone who introduced himself as from ASIO. This man was
looking for "hot" UFO information. ASIO contact with the group
was said to have been maintained until 1970.

On a random check of NAA Record Search on 8 November 2004 we
came across a new file which had recently been added to the
collection. File series number A6122. control symbol 2155,
series accession number 2004/00053526 is titled "Queensland
Flying Saucer Bureau Volume 1."

The access status of the file is shown as "Open with exception"
and the date of decision is 21 May 2004. Contents date range is
1959-1973. On checking the available NAA further information
link, we found that the Agency which held the file was ASIO,
Central Office. We find it odd that our request for any ASIO
file on the "Queensland Flying Saucer Research Bureau" failed to
turn up a file titled "Queensland Flying Saucer Bureau."
Naturally, we have ordered a copy of the file to see just
what it contains.


A CLOSER LOOK AT UFO REPORTS FROM PAPUA NEW GUINEA

In previous Newsletters the Disclosure Australia Project
has brought you:

*Previously unknown material found in Government archives
*Summaries of the contents of Government UFO files
*Lists of UFO reports made to Government agencies
*An analysis of some of the material we have found.

In this issue we continue our analysis role by focussing on
reports coming out of one geographic area, namely Papua New
Guinea which at the time, before its independence, was
administered by Australia.

At 1200hrs on 23 Aug 1953 Mr T. Drury, the then Deputy Director
of the Department of Civil Aviation (DCA) for Papua New Guinea,
was in Port Moresby. In the cloudless south-western sky he
noticed what seemed to be "cloud building up" which grew in
intensity for several minutes. Suddenly, an object appeared from
one side of this cloud and climbed fast in a north-west
direction. In size Drury said it seemed "slightly bigger than a
pin head."

The soundless object left a clearly defined vapour trail. It
"finally disappeared with a rapid gain of altitude." Drury had a
movie camera with him and filmed using a telephoto lens. The
film was examined both in Australia by the RAAF and in the USA.

The dramatic events of the reported June 1959 CE3 events at
Boianai, Papua New Guinea are well documented in the UFO
literature. What is far less known is the flow of UFO reports
from that region as documented in Federal Government files. In
this Newsletter we will concentrate on the years 1958-1960, and
supplement this with an attachment listing sightings between
1958 and 1971.

It all started with a memo from the Secretary, Department of
Territories (DOT) (1) to the Secretary, Department of Defence
(DOD) dated 17 Jun 1959 informing Defence of a "Reported
sighting of falling object." At 1900 hours on 24 May 1959 a UFO
was reported to the west of Baniara, which descended erratically
to the south-west. Brilliant blue in colour, alternating to red,
it disappeared at 2015 hours.

The DOT again wrote to the DOD on 4 Aug 1959 (2) recording a
number of other sightings in Papua. Copies of the memo were also
sent to the Department of Air (DOA); DCA; Department of National
Development and the CSIRO. Two internal DOT memos were attached.

It is understandable why copies should have gone to DOA and DCA,
but why CSIRO? We had previously located two CSIRO UFO files, so
we cross checked these. A copy of the 4 Aug 1959 DOT memo was
found on CSIRO file series A8520 control symbol HM1/30. The copy
had simply been filed on the CSIRO file titled "Miscellaneous
Enquiries -- General - UFOs" with no apparent action or further
analysis/comment undertaken. Also on the file were copies of six
other DOT memos containing reports from PNG; no action noted on
the file.

Who was the Department of National Development, and why was the
DOT forwarding them copies of UFO reports? National Australia
Archives "agency notes" on that Department indicated it was
created on 16 Mar 1950 for the planning and co ordinating the
development of national resources on a national basis. It was
abolished in 1972. We have no idea why UFO reports were being
sent to them.

Back to the reports in the 4 August 1959 DOT memos. Bishop Doyle
of Sideia reported that in Jun 1958 a round, pale blue object
the size of the Moon, was seen and emitted brighter light than
moonlight. It approached and hovered over the Mission. After
five minutes it moved north and disappeared in mid-sky.

In late Oct/early Nov 1958 at about 1900 hours a white light
travelled from north-west to south-east on two evenings. On the
second evening the light flashed on and off at two second
intervals.

In May 1959, nine school boys reported seeing a large, green
elliptical object moving rapidly across the sky.

On 13 Jun 1959 at 1815 hours, twenty boys reported a fast,
green, elliptical object travelling east to north-east.

Mr E Evenett of Samarai was at Giwa, 8 miles from Baniara in
Goodenough Bay on 26 Jun 1959. Some time between 1915 and 1930
hours he went outside to see an object approaching from the
north or north-east. It descended then hovered an estimated 500
feet above the ground at an angular elevation of 45 degrees. He
estimated it to be 60 feet long and in shape was described as
like a "rugger football." It had a "... kind of ring around it
with about four semi-domed portholes." " glow came from the
"portholes." After hovering for four minutes it disappeared
rapidly to the south.

Finally, on 27 Jun 1959 at 2030h hours, two men noted a half-
Moon sized object, in the western sky which moved slowly over a
ten minute period.

One of the accompanying memos went on to discuss the possibility
that Venus was unlikely to be the cause of the events. It closed
by stating that "The Regional Director, Attorney General=B9s
Department has been kept fully informed of these reports." From
the phrasing, this suggests ASIO was the agency informed. We do
know that other agencies were keeping files on "unidentified
aircraft" over PNG. For example:

*File series MT1131/1 control symbol A31/1/133 is titled
"Unidentified aircraft Papua & New Guinea." The date range is
1958-1959. The controlling agency at the time was The Department
of Army.

*File series A452 control symbol 1969/1630 is titled "Flights by
unidentified aircraft over Papua New Guinea." The date range is
1958-1970. The controlling agency was the Department of
Territories 1958-1968; the Department of External Territories
1968-1970.

It could simply be that ASIO, like other Government Departments,
was keeping an eye on "unidentified aircraft" over PNG.

Another of the attached memos told of yet more sightings: *27
Jun 1959. Baniara. At 1940 hours Mr R Smith and two others saw a
bright, white spherical light. It was initially stationary and
then slowly moved to the west. Red and green lights were seen on
the object. It cast light on the water. At 2025 hours a "bronze
coloured disc" was seen below and to the right of the light. It
was lost at 2045 hours below low cloud low in the west

*28 Jun 1959. Baniara. 1820 hours. Mr and Mrs Orwin saw the same
light as on the 27th. At 2001 hours it traversed a distance in
one minute which took 30 minutes the previous night. It was in
the western sky where it disappeared low down at 2115 hours.

*7 Jul 1959. At 0500 hours Mr R Smith noted a very bright light.
After 15 minutes an object like a falling star came from near
the object and shoot earthward at speed. Five minutes later
another falling star was seen. After a total of an hour it moved
westwards.

What is absent from these reported observations is any mention
of the 26 and 27 Jun 1959 Boianai CE3 events which do not
feature at all in the reports from the DOT.

It appears that it wasn=B9t until 12 Sep 1959 when Peter Norris of
the Victorian Flying Saucer Research Society (VFSRS) wrote to
the Directorate of Air Force Intelligence (DAFI) (3) that DAFI
became aware of the Father Gill sightings. Norris wrote "My
society has been undertaking investigations into the alleged
sightings of unidentified flying objects reported by the
Reverend W B Gill of Boianai Anglican Mission, Papua, New
Guinea." Norris wrote that Gill et al had reported humanoid
beings on the object and "...these sightings, once established
as authentic, appear to furnish the much-coveted proof that the
UFOs are intelligently guided machines. " Norris asked DAFI if
they had inquired into the Gill sightings and if so what were
their conclusions?

In an undated response letter, Squadron Leader Gilson from DAFI
replied "We have no official information on any sightings by
Gill in New Guinea, but we are now making inquiries into the
matter." (4)

By replies dated 20 Oct 1959 VFSRS gave DAFI Gill=B9s current
Victorian address (5) and on 16 Nov 59 (6) VFSRS forwarded a
copy of their 15 page report (7) on not only the Gill sightings
but others from PNG. VFSRS again asked DAFI if they had received
official information and could DAFI please respond to their
letter of 12 Sep 59=B9s questions re DAFI=B9s conclusions?

On the 25 Nov 1959 five of the main Australian UFO groups sent a
joint letter to the Right Honourable R G Menzies - providing a
copy of the VFSRS Gill report. The groups wrote that one
possible explanation was that the Gill sightings were caused by
a secret weapon of a foreign power. "We feel strongly that an
investigation should be made " (8)

On the 26 Nov 59 DAFI responded to VFSRS that "We have initiated
enquiry into Father Gill=B9s claims, but it is too early to have
reached any conclusions." (9) Despite two statements by DAFI
that they had initiated enquiries into Gill=B9s account, there is
no evidence on their files of any such enquiries.

Interestingly, out of all the time which DAFI could have chosen
to undertake their next action, DAFI chose 26 Nov to also write
to the DOD=B9s RAAF liaison in both London and Washington with a
question. The question was for the liaison staff in each country
to ascertain the latest views of the respective governments on
the issue of UFOs. (10)

Politics entered the scene at this point, on the 15 Dec 59 when
the Secretary for the DOD advised the Secretary of the DOA that
the Minister for Defence had received a letter from VFSRS. The
Secretary DOD asked for a report on the subject of Papuan UFO
reports which were received some months ago. (11)

On the 16 Dec 59 the DOD forwarded the PNG reports contained in
the 4 Aug 59 DOT memo to the Australian Embassy in Washington.
These reports were then for- warded to the "Aerospace Technical
Intelligence Centre" for evaluation (USAF).

The question arises as to whether DAFI in the DOD or some other
area in the DOD requested the evaluation? There are no copies of
correspondence from DAFI on this topic in the files we have
seen. The memo reference involved was W.183/59 and this isn=B9t
the style used by DAFI. It does appear that while DAFI was
dealing with questions re Father Gill=B9s report; someone else in
the DOD was dealing with the other PNG reports, seeking an
evaluation of their cause in the USA. Left and right hand
syndrome at work?

Although they had had Gill=B9s Australian address since October,
it wasn=B9t until 18 Dec 1959 that DAFI wrote to Father Gill, who
was by then in Victoria, asking if a Squadron Leader Lang could
interview him. (12)

On the day before Christmas, a reply came back from London to
the effect that 90% of all UK UFO reports could be explained
and that the remaining 10% "... only remain unexplained because
of lack of reliable information about them." (13)

Following the Secretary DOD=B9s request for a report, Squadron
Leader Lang interviewed Father Gill. On 8 Jan 1960 Sec DOA
forwarded a copy of this two page report to the Sec DOD. The
report, solely based on the interview, and lacking any attempt
to check with PNG sources, concluded "It seems probably that the
lights observed by Mr Gill were natural phenomena." With a
Defence orientation the memo concluded "In the light of our own
and overseas military experience, the reported sights by
Reverend Gill do not contain sufficient additional evidence to
warrant any firm opinion that illegal flights by alien countries
are being made over Australian Territory." (14) A copy of this
report was also sent to the Prime Minister=B9s Department on 8 Jan
1960. (15)

The Australian Embassy in Washington responded on 12 Jan 60
advising the latest position on UFOs of the US Government. They
referred to "Air Technical Intelligence Centre=B9s Special report
No 14." (16)

The VFSRS asked, once again (17) on 25 Jan 60 if DAFI had
reached any conclusion on the Gill sightings? DAFI replied on 22
Feb 60 "...although it is not possible to reach any positive
conclusion, we do not believe that the phenomena observed by the
Reverend Gill and his party were manned space vehicles." (18)

A memo dated 16 Feb. 60 (19) from the Office of the High
Commission for Australia in London revealed that it wasn=B9t only
the US Government who had been asked for an evaluation of the
58/59 Papuan reports. This memo from London referred to a DOD
letter of 16 Dec 59 ref 128.1.21 and advised "...the reports
have been studied by the Air Ministry, the representative of the
British Astronomical Association and the Royal Greenwich
Observatory." The Air Ministry=B9 statement included "I am
directed to regret that the investigations, except in two
instances, were inconclusive." The BAA suggested the reports of
May 59 and 13 Jun 59 were of meteors.

Of other reports they said "In fact I cannot reconcile the
descriptions with any known celestial phenomenon, and can only
assume that they are either wildly inaccurate, deliberately
falsified, or are bona-fide reports of known or unknown objects
of terrestrial origin." Greenwich observed "The only possible
astronomical explanation of these various reports would be that
they were of the planet Venus. However, some of the observers at
least appear to have been aware of this possibility and so this
seems an unlikely explanation."

The USAF response to what could have caused the Papuan reports
(in the 4 Aug 59 DOT memo) came in March 1960. Firstly, dated 4
Mar 60 (20) is a memo from the Washington RAAF Intelligence
Representative to DAFI. Secondly, dated 24 Mar 60 (21) is a memo
from the Sec DOD to the Sec DOA. Attached to both memos was a
two page report from ATIC, Dayton, Ohio, USA. Table one presents
their conclusions:

Table one

Date              Reporter       Location                Conclusion
June 1958       Doyle      Sideia     Insufficient information

Oct/Nov 58      Doyle                     Poss aircraft

May 1959              Doyle                       Prob meteor

24 May 1959   Orwin/Smith Baniara           Prob Sirius

13 Jun 59             Doyle                       Prob meteor

26 Jun 1959    Evenett    Samarai              Prob search light

27 Jun 1959     Doyle                       Prob Venus

27/28 Jun 1959 Smith/Orwin                  Prob Venus

On the 8 Mar 1960 the sec DOD forwarded a memo (22) to the Sec
DOA attaching the memo of 4 Aug 1959 from DOT. DOD advised DOA
that they had forwarded the matter to Head of Australian Joint
Services Staff (AJSS) in London and Washington for comment. This
is actually the first time details of these reports appears in a
DAFI referenced file as opposed to a DOD referenced file. This
supports the view that DAFI was dealing only with the Gill
sightings while someone else in the DOD was dealing with the
other 1958/59 Papuan reports. Why this should be so, when DAFI
was recognised as the lead area for the Government=B9s UFO
investigation, is not known from our reading of the files.

Finally, on 14 Mar 1960 the Sec DOD forwarded to the Sec DOA an
additional piece of correspondence from the AJSS in London. This
included a reply from Bristol University advising that although
one of their projects was flying large plastic balloons they
knew of no agency flying such balloons in the area of Port
Moresby PNG. (23).

Later reports

In total, the Disclosure Australia Project has extracted 49
distinct UFO reports from PNG for the period June 1958 to August
1971 from these files and these are listed in attachment one.
The 29 Jun 1970 Sepik River radar case stands out from the rest
as one of interest to us. The DAFI file has a single page
reporting this event, with no analysis and no follow up, yet it
is written off in the Annual Summary as "electro-meteorological"
what ever that means!

References
National Archives of Australia: NA of A

 (1) NA of A: A703, 580/1/1 Part 2 folio 8B.
 (2) NA of A: A703, 580/1/1 Part 2 folio 9.
 (3) NA of A: A703, 554/1/30 Part 1 folio 35A.
 (4) NA of A: A703, 554/1/30 Part 1 folio 36A.
 (5) NA of A: A703, 554/1/30 Part 1 folio 37A.
 (6) NA of A: A703, 554/1/30 Part 1 folio 38A.
 (7) NA of A: A703, 554/1/30 Part 1 folio 8B.
 (8) NA of A: A703, 580/1/1 Part 2 folio 19B.
 (9) NA of A: A703, 554/1/30 Part 1 unfolio numbered.
(10) NA of A: A703, 554/1/30 Part 1 folio 40A.
(11) NA of A: A703, 554/1/30 Part 1 folio 42A.
(12) NA of A: A703, 554/1/30 Part 1 folio 43A.
(13) NA of A: A703, 554/1/30 Part 1 folio 44A.
(14) NA of A: A703, 554/1/30 Part 1 folios 76 & 49A.
(15) NA of A: A703, 554/1/30 Part 1 folio 51A.
(16) NA of A: A703, 554/1/30 Part 1 folio 55A.
(17) NA of A: A703, 554/1/30 Part 1 folio 63A.
(18) NA of A: A703, 554/1/30 Part 1 folio 57A.
(19) NA of A: A703, 580/1/1 Part 2 folio 28C.
(20) NA of A: A703, 580/1/1 Part 2 folio 32A.
(21) NA of A: A703, 580/1/1 Part 2 folio 30A.
(22) NA of A: A703, 580/1/1 Part 2 folio 28A.
(23) NA of A: A703, 580/1/1 Part 2 folio 29A.


ANOTHER WOOMERA FILE LOCATED

After several months of waiting we have now been advised that
yet another Woomera file has been located and is accessible to
us. File series D250/3 control symbol 1956/483 is titled
"Reports on unidentified aircraft, strange occurrences Part 1"
and has been located in the Sydney office of the NAA. The date
range is shown as 1952 to 1958 and the owner of the file was the
Defence Support Centre, Woomera.

Previously we had located two Woomera UFO files
in the Adelaide office of the NAA:

1. WRE file number D174, control symbol SA 5281 titled "Unusual
Occurrences Flying Saucer at Woomera "covers the period 1952-
1955 and related a number of observations of UFOs made at
Woomera, South Australia during those years indicated. (See
Newsletter Three for full details) 2. Department of Supply file
number SA 5644/2/1

was a Department of Supply file held by the Weapons Research
Establishment at Salisbury and covers the years 1966-1974. The
title of the file is "Unidentified Flying Objects." (See
Newsletter Nine for full details.)

We have requested a photocopy of this latest file and will
report on it in due course.


RESEARCH LIBRARY ESTABLISHED

The Australian UFO Research Association has recently established
a library of UFO related books and symposium reports. A list of
the material in the library has been placed on the Disclosure
Project web site at:

http://disclosure.freewebpage.org

Access to this material is available to Australian UFO
researchers on a research basis. If you are researching a topic
or writing an article and wish to have us check a source for
you, then simply get in touch by e-mail to:

disclosureaustralia.nul

tell us what source you need checked and we will do so. For
example, you wish to check a report which is cited as appearing
in the book, Encounter Cases From Flying Saucer Review, by
Charles Bowen which you do not have a copy of but which is in
the AURA Library. You have no more details than that. We can
check the book, find the item, give you details and provide the
full reference to the case.

Contacting the Secretariat

As always, we welcome your comments on the material we present
in these Newsletters.

Our contact details are:

Secretariat:
Australian UFO Research Association
PO Box 786, North Adelaide,
South Australia 5006
disclosureaustralia.nul
http://disclosure.freewebpage.org/

--

The Australian UFO Research
Network Disclosure Project

Auspiced by the
Australian UFO Research Network
PO Box 738, Beaudesert,
Queensland 4285
auforn.nul
http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn


Regards,

Diane Harrison








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Nov > Nov 20

             Re: Where Were The Pros During Mexico City Flap? -

From: Craig Parsons <Filmseries.nul>
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:03:47 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 07:37:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Where Were The Pros During Mexico City Flap? -


>From: Craig Parsons <filmseries.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 23:32:21 EST
>Subject: Where Were The Pros During Mexico City Flap?


I opened a can of worms with my question.

I got several private emails about this as well as several
reactions from this List. I'm happy to say that the man who was
at the heart of this matter, Jaime Maussan, was gracious enough
to write to me directly.

His first email - below - has a bit of an edge to it, because I
think he thought I was just taking a cheap shot at him and this
production people in Mexico. I wasn't, and I told him as much in
my response back to him. Mr. Maussan wrote back with a very warm
and informative e-mail.

I feel like I gained some answers to my question and I hope
those reading this will agree that our correspondence serves
well the UFO issue in general and this incident in particular.

Mr. Maussan's first response - quoted with permission:

---

Craig:

Hello, this a personal answer from a professional journalist.


What you proposed in the message you send to the list is very
difficult to accomplish. The sightings are not every day,
sometimes they are, but some other times takes weeks or months
to have a good sighting...?

Do you know any professional who is willing to dedicate
professional cameras and crew to get this footage? For weeks or
months?

Why don=B4t you come to Mexico and bring your cameras, the Flap is
going on right now, very strong. I think you will have a good
chance.

Come, we help you.... probably you can be lucky.

If you do you will understand many things. How difficult is to
record this objects. How long you have to be watching the sky,
you will understand how painful is for your eyes.

You see is very easy to be a critic is very difficult to be the
producer of the evidences.

Ignorance is not a good advisor.

Besides after so many years we are now very good recording, we
have very good video, but for now we are not sharing until we
find a different attitude for the extraordinary work that the
mexican people are doing.

Sorry for my english.

Jaime Maussan

---

My answer to Mr. Maussan:

---

Dear Mr. Maussan,

Thank you for your email. It was quite a nice surprise to hear
from the journalist most closely involved with the Mexico UFO
sightings.

Let me first address your last point, namely, your apologizing
for your English. I assure you that your English was excellent
and candidly I should be the one apologizing to you for not
being able to respond your note in Spanish. At any rate, your
note was clear and well written and I greatly appreciate it.

Now, to your points and the questions I raised that triggered
them:

I do realize that my perception of your work on this subject is
likely biased, since I've only seen the video documentaries
about the subject that we're created by American producers. From
the tone of your note, I also think I offended you. For that I'm
very sorry. When I circulated my question on the Internet, I
really wasn't calling your motives or methods into question so
much as asking honestly where the footage was from Mexican news
agencies and other television production companies. That's all.
I asked that because on the videos and programs circulated here
in the US the impression is that the sightings occurred for
extended periods of time and on successive days.

Further, from the footage that is shown in these documentaries,
it appears that sizable crowds had time to form, point up into
the sky, aim their cameras and film for several minutes. So,
with that in mind, I asked why a television crew might not
capture at least some footage that - with the professional grade
cameras and long lenses - would go a long way to revealing what
these objects were. In my posting, I did offer the possibility
that perhaps there WAS professionally shot video and that I just
hadn't seen it.

I assure you that I DO know how difficult it can be to capture a
random and possibly short lived event. I also know how easy it
is on the documentaries I watched to distort the situation -
making it look like the UFOs were flying around Mexico City for
many minutes if not hours. However, news crews DO catch breaking
news stories, if not from the beginning, soon after they start.
So, my questions are asked not with a preconceived notion that
you somehow didn't do your job - not at all! In fact, I simply
wondered why there wasn't pro footage on the videos I've
watched.

It might interest you to know that my question sparked many
'answers' ... some of which were thoughtful and others just
laughable. Please be assured that I respect you and your work to
the degree I've been exposed to it. I've been told that (and
forgive me if this is NOT an appropriate analogy) that Americans
should look at you and your high standing in Mexican journalism
like we would Mike Wallace from our own 60 Minutes. Needless to
say, Mr. Wallace's esteem is unquestioned, so that comparison is
made just to give Americans a graphic illustration of how highly
you and your journalism are thought of in your country and
beyond. BUT ... that's another reason I asked my question.

You see, unlike Mike Wallace and the 60 Minutes bunch, YOU had
the courage to openly address this issue and produce shows about
it. Clips of those were included on the videos that I've
watched. I admire that honesty and candor, but again, in the
face of that it made me wonder why there wasn't pro footage.

Frankly, I thought, maybe the flaps were NOT as long or regular
as the videos made out. Or, that perhaps, you were a lone voice
and the powers that be in your television network wouldn't give
you the resources to have a crew available to shoot the UFOs.
Or - as I mentioned in my posting - you DID film something but it
wasn't included in the video. I know that in television
production, rare, one-of-a-kind footage is very valuable and so
I considered that maybe the producers of these videos didn't
want to pay the money for the real footage and settled for the
amateur stuff.

I realize that this email is running long - I hope you'll not be
annoyed by that, but take it as a sign of respect that I want to
make my motives behind my honestly asked question clear. As I
said earlier, the responses that others gave me ranged from
speculation that the Mexican government was covering up the
story to people thinking that the UFO flap wasn't really real at
all. So, there were both extremes of the issue.

Needless to say, YOUR response is the one I was looking for and
I'm honored that you took the time to write to me. If you don't
mind, I'd like to post your letter and my response on-line. But
of course, I'll only do that if I have your permission and if
so, I'll post both of them in full and without editing. Also, if
you'd like to read what others wrote to me both on-line and
through private emails, I'll be glad to forward them to you.
Thanks again for your kind note and your patience in reading my
long response.


Yours,

Craig Parsons

---

Mr. Maussan wrote again and I think you'll agree was informative
and gracious. I am fascinated and excited at his update on the
footage they have been able to get and his plans for it.

Mr. Maussan's second email:

---

Craig:

Thanks for your kind words.

I have become very sensitive around the criticism around the
videos recorded in Mexico regarding the UFO flap that we have
been seen in Mexico over the last 14 years.

What I did was to ask the mexican people to be aware and record
anything they detect in the sky.

My suprise was big.

Hundreds of people sent me videos.

Yes we didn=B4t have the experience to record them, but very soon
some of the people learned how to do it. The use of tripoid,
avoid the use of autofocus, how to discover this objects. Most
of the time they are very far away and difficult to locate.

The videos are better and better.

There are so many that are so interesting and unknown by the
american people and the rest of the world.

We are now using infrared cameras, we have discover that many
times the objects are not visible by the human eye, but they are
there, and that would explain many things.

Now there is a new phenomenum:

The digital camera is becoming as useful to obtain images from
extrange creatures as the video was to the ufos.

We have three cases photographed in Mexico over the last two
years. In two of this cases the beings were photographed without
the photographer knowing their presence. The third was
photographed by a 14 th years old girl, who had to be taken to
the hospital, after she did.

I have decided to attend the International UFO conference at
Laughlin, Nevada in march next year. I will present there some
of the most impressive evidences around this phenomenum there, I
hope the mexican people will get the recognition and respect
that deserves for the incredible work they have done.

In Mexico I present the evidences every week in my tv program,
at national level.

You can watch my show every week from 7 to 9 pm (8 -10 East. 5 -
 7 Pacific), at www.jaimemaussan.tv . In spanish.

Thanks Craig. My invitation for you to come and see all the
evidences we have, and witness this incredible reality is open.

Jaime Maussan

Yes you can publish this mail, your response and my first mail
if you wish.

-----







   UFO UpDates
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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Nov > Nov 20

                         Re: Ithaca NY UFOs - Barrow

From: Robert Barrow <robertbarrow.nul>
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 19:42:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 08:23:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Ithaca NY UFOs - Barrow


[Non-subscriber Post]

>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 04:35:15 -0800
>Subject: Ithaca NY UFOs

>I'm forwarding the message below in case anyone is interested. A
>fellow "G-man" in New York state wrote in via my website, and
>I'm simply passing this on FWIW, so I can attend to other
>matters.

>I will connect parties on-lIst or off, as you prefer. Be warned,
>the fellow has an AOL email address. All I did by way of editing
>was to limit line lengths, per List rules.

-----

>Subject: NY UFO's
>Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:27:44 EST
>From: Gmanxxx.nul
>To: webmaster.nul

>Mr. Hatch,

>My name is Geoffrey "G*MAN" Howe. I have a mountain of evidence
>(36 newsclippings alone) about a "flap" that happened in the
>Ithaca, NY region of NY State in and around (starting?
>continuing?) 1966-present.

>Air Force Project Blue Book investigated this "flap", but
>curiously when I received my Top Secret clearance from the USAF
>in 1974, I could find no reference to this.

>Furthermore, I was extensively questioned by the NSA about my
>belief's regarding UFO's after reading Blue Book, and some
>amazing things happened on my base, Shepherd AFB, Whititaha
>Falls, TX.

>This is the base with some of the highest level (no pun
>intended)! of UFO sightings by both military and civilians
>in the USAF, next to White Sands.

>I have been seen by; Peter Robbins, Budd Hopkins, and Richard
>Dolan re; my case. Interested? I could use a pro's help.

>I have a huge amount of interviews, clippings, etc., to validate
>my investigation.


>Sincerely,

>Geoffrey "G*MAN" Howe


Dear List Readers,

The last tidbit I ever expected to see on the UFO UpDates List,
as someone who prefers to read rather than contribute, was an
apparent reference via Mr. Hatch and "G*MAN" to the Ithaca - and
that would also include Newfield - New York UFO reports which
were particularly newsworthy in the mid 1960s.

While I'm afraid there's really nothing more that I can say or
do after relating the following, I guess it's time that I broke
my semi-silence on this situation, and there couldn't be a
better place than UFO UpDates to do so.

List participants who remember newstand magazines of the
seventies may recall Argosy Magazine's companion publication,
Argosy UFO. The July, 1977 issue includes my article, Story of
a Strange Alliance: How a Ufologist Came To The Aid Of The Air
Force. I believe this was the editor's title, as it's unlikely
my own choice would have been so self-serving. You see, the
Argosy UFO piece, in which I took great care to change names and
locations, was actually all about the Ithaca/Newfield UFO
reports referred to by "G*MAN." And the UFO researcher whom I
named "Mike Grant" was really myself.

In 1977, I still felt uncomfortable bringing certain things to
light, and made it clear from the article's opening lines that
these changes had been made. Nevertheless.....

One day, sometime in the mid-sixties (forgive me, time has
clouded my memory and files are hiding somewhere with sock
drawer fugitives), I received an unexpected phone call in
upstate NY from a stranger. Still a high school age teenager, I
had already been interested in UFOs for a few years and, though
I wasn't quite sure where he got my phone number, I had appeared
on local radio programs and had investigated the 1965 Northeast
power blackout a bit, so that wasn't really an enigma. What was
a mystery was his question - did I have any information on UFO
sightings in Newfield, near Ithaca? No, I had none. Then the man
wished to know whether I was familiar with a certain UFO
investigator in that area, whom he named. Again, no was my
response. The man thanked me and said goodbye.

The next day, I received another call, this time from somebody
with an all-too-similar calm, smooth voice, maybe with a slight
southern accent. He gave his name and identified himself as an
Air Force intelligence officer from Hancock Field in Syracuse.
In my article, I made him a captain for reasons even I have
forgotten, but I believe his actual rank was first lieutenant.
In any event, I'll refer to him as "Captain Todd," as I had in
my writing.

The officer casually informed me that he had been "working" in
this area for several weeks and had seen some of my letters to
local newspapers about UFOs. He appreciated my sincere approach
to the UFO topic - even though my most recent letter offered a
scathing attack on recent UFO 'explanations' hastily given out
by officials at Hancock Field about local sightings. Todd was
sure to emphasize, however, that the USAF at Hancock Field "is
not hiding anything."

Todd went on to tell me that, even though there were reports of
UFOs, landings, occupants and physical evidence in the
Newfield/Ithaca area, there were other Air Force officials - Blue
Book? - investigating on the scene and they felt that most of the
reports had no substance at all.

His particular concern, however, appeared to be a couple of
civilian UFO investigators who, like me, had connections with
major private UFO organizations. He expressed dismay, not that
they were questioning UFO witnesses, but that they were leading
the witnesses in questioning, injecting suggestive comments
about spaceships and aliens during the sessions. To my shock -
and remember, I was just a kid, some distance away from the UFO
activity in the Ithaca area - he asked if I would try to find
out more information about, particularly, one of these UFO
investigators. Further, Todd insisted that I _not_ tell the
private organizations about Air Force interest. He wanted me to
handle all of this "diplomatically."

What a dilemma this was more me, as no fan of the Air Force UFO
investigation, but intensely loyal to the goals of the civilian
UFO groups to which I belonged. Yet, because Captain Todd was
seemingly being up front with me and extremely kind with his
approach, I could only assume that what little assistance I
might provide - even as a teenage UFO geek - would be the best
way to go.

But Todd was stern about a couple of things that he wished me to
understand, implicitly. First, he forbade me to use his name at
all, and I was absolutely not to tell the major UFO
organizations or anybody at all that the Air Force had an
interest in this situation. Second, when I flat-out demanded to
know whether there was physical evidence where UFOs were said to
have landed, Todd insisted coldly that there was _no_ physical
evidence and there was _no_ landing scene to investigate. This
officer, if nothing else, seemed a debunking hardliner and my
comments about good historical UFO cases were all dismissed by
him.

After this initial forty minute conversation, Capt. Todd
informed me he was preparing a report on the supposedly tainted
civilian investigators  - for whom, I don't know - and as this,
the first of numerous phone conversations, ended, he gave me two
numbers where I could reach him - one was in error but the other
worked fine.

But I wasn't about to let this go by so easily. Among my
interests was the  - now defunct - NORAD installation at Hancock
Field, the SAGE (Semi-Automatic Ground Environment) building, a
windowless facility that housed the highest of high-tech
equipment for tracking who-knows-what entering the air space of
the United States. Call me a foolish kid, call me an idiot, but
I decided to bargain a little. I expressed to Capt. Todd that in
return for my services, wouldn't it be great if I could get into
the SAGE facility to see what that place is all about? To my
amazement, Todd said he thought that could be arranged!

Ultimately, I found that there apparently were some underhanded
things going on via some civilian investigators in the
Newfield/Ithaca area. An official of one of the major UFO
organizations, knowing only that I was looking into the
technique of certain investigators, repeated to me several times
during a phone conversation regarding one that he "is a weird
person, he's just weird." Indeed, that organization had received
other complaints about this member.

One Sunday evening, Todd phoned to tell me he was told that a
team of university scientists was coming to Newfield to conduct
a UFO investigation. For some reason, he found this difficult to
believe, though he was aware that a Project Blue Book consultant
had been there a few days before. A few hours later, I confirmed
that the team was coming and relayed this information to Capt.
Todd.

Now, here's the really, really peculiar part: Upon hearing that
the team was coming, the officer's voice became extremely
concerned and he explained to me again that he anticipated
complete and absolute secrecy regarding our contacts. "Neither I
nor the others at my office want to be associated with the
investigation in any way, at any time," he demanded. Then the
bombshell hit: "Bob, I want you to know something. I'm not even
supposed to be talking with you. The public information office
here at Hancock Field doesn't even know I am speaking with you."

By this time, I had come to realize that Todd was working with
at least two other people. One was a high-ranking NCO, and the
other a woman, perhaps an officer, or enlisted. I spoke with her
only once, but had numerous conversations with the sergeant.

As days went by, the civilian 'investigators' in question
decided to come to Syracuse to appear with local media and to
conduct public meetings about their 'findings'. I was asked to
appear with them on some program, but I obviously declined
because I wished to safeguard my own reputation in addition to
being in the uncomfortable position of checking these people
out. By now, first one, and then both major national UFO
organizations with whom these people had become affiliated were
burning angry over their affiliations and were taking steps to
distance themselves.

I spoke with reporters sent to cover the civilian investigators.
One told me of a meeting in which a few hand-picked and easily
influenced UFO witnesses were brought along, and he remarked
that one of the investigators just seemed "very weird" to him.

As things progressed, the civilian investigators in question
even formed their own UFO investigative organization and they
were soliciting membership fees. Capt. Todd, in his latest
conversations with me, began to lose his cool. He had become
extremely upset that the civilian group leaders were criticizing
his own investigations in the Ithaca/Newfield area, and he
seemed worried that his formerly low profile regarding the Air
Force investigation had surfaced.

I asked Capt. Todd, during a phone conversation in which he was
quite emotional and disturbed, what in the world was wrong.
"Trouble." he replied. "Wright-Patterson found out that (the
civilian investigators) were screaming about our investigation
in Newfield." So what, I wondered? "That's the problem," Todd
returned. "Wright-Patt called me and wanted to know why I was
down there."

"Didn't they know why?" I asked, now totally confused.

"I told them I was ordered to go," he shot back.

"I thought _they_ - Blue Book - ordered you to go," I
countered!

The phone conversation ended abruptly, he would not speak
further with me on this occasion. Capt. Todd, or First Lt.
Whomever, he was off the phone, click.

One of the newspaper reporters called me later in the evening to
tell me the university scientists had arrived and were staying
at a certain inn, being mobbed by the press and the curious.
However, when I called the inn, the clerk insisted that there
was no "mob scene" and that if scientists had arrived, he knew
nothing about them being there.

When I reinitiated contact with Capt. Todd later in the evening,
I discovered that, while the clerk at the inn was telling me
there were no scientists in town, as a matter of fact one of
those non-existent scientists was speaking with the captain on
the phone.

The scientists looked into the UFO situation, publicly claimed
disappointment with their findings and left town. The civilian
'investigators' cried foul to the press, seething particularly
about the formerly reclusive Capt. Todd's investigations, and
went about the business of raising funds for their new UFO
research group - perhaps unaware at this time that the New York
State Attorney General's Office was getting complaints about the
use of members' money and an investigation was underway.

Eventually, the civilian investigators, having already been
thrown out of the two major organizations, were brought up on
criminal charges by the State of NY and they were effectively
prosecuted for, if I recall the exact problem, scamming people
out of their money. They had also told some fantastic lies, even
claiming a veritable father-son relationship with Project Blue
Book personnel as they used their pied-piper personalities to
entwine the UFO faithful into parting with their cash.

As if a light switch was turned off, I instantly lost all
contact with Capt. Todd. He was just gone. However, the weeks
passed and suddenly, one winter's morning, someone claiming to
be an Air Force officer called my home while I was out. The name
was not taken and he did not call back.

A couple of weeks later, I phoned the Hancock Field phone number
that I knew so well by now. A familiar voice answered; it was
the sergeant whom I had spoken with many times. He confirmed
that Capt. Todd had transferred to a new assignment in some
other state about a month earlier. As we spoke, the NCO confided
that he very much wished he could give me his personal opinion
about the nature of UFOs, but felt it best not to do so. "But,"
he offered, "I'm sure my opinions would be much the same as
yours."


Postscript:  You, dear reader, probably believe this incredibly
convoluted story of confusion and intrigue has now ended. Not
true. A few days later, I received a phone call from the public
information office at Hancock Field in Syracuse. Wherever he had
gone, whatever he had become or was in the first place, the
mysterious Capt. Todd - rather, First Lt. Whomever - had not
forgotten his promise. He had asked the Sergeant to make
arrangements for me to tour the SAGE installation. After one
delay and questions of security complications due to the nature
of the tour, I gained my precious entrance into the world of
NORAD. The installation no longer graces the grounds of Hancock
Field, but I can say that it was a fantastic experience to watch
it work from the inside. I and what seemed primarily a group of
perhaps Japanese officials or scientists were guided through the
building, shown what were then giant freezer-sized computers and
ultimately the Big Room with The Big NORAD Screen on the wall
that we've all seen in those old movies. The radar, all the
officers, airmen and WAFs sitting at their duty stations, the
speaker-generated sounds of multiple voice communications coming
and going from all over the country and overseas as the huge
screen before us awaited friend and foe alike - well, it was all
pretty damned impressive.

And for me, something equally as impressive happened when I
first walked into the SAGE building. I was actually greeted by
the Sergeant, his name tag reading exactly who he had said he
was many months ago. No kid was this, either, he was a Chief
Master Sergeant, on the verge of retirement. The lines on his
face spoke of experiences of which most men can only dream.
Despite all of the confusion and of all the things that will
never be explained to my satisfaction regarding the
Ithaca/Newfield UFO reports, few could ever know what a comfort
it was to me just to see a name tag that wasn't a lie. Chief
master sergeant such-and-such (of course, I remember the real
names to this day) was real. Whatever I had experienced was
official and absolutely meaningful and real.

I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about the Ithaca/Newfield
reports over the years, which I personally believe have a basis.
Back then, I had to finish high school and then, in an era where
both the Rev. Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy were
assassinated as the USA slipped further into the turmoil of
Vietnam, the military draft began biting at my heels. With only
two college courses completed, a week before the final draft
notice arrived, I entered the Air Force as an enlistee. If
anybody thinks I was rewarded further for helping the enigmatic
young Air Force officer, my addendum would be that my Air Force
recruiter promised me photography school and I ended up training
as a medic. However, as a further note of interest to "G*MAN,"
and really the only additional bit of information I can offer
him, I, like he, was stationed at Sheppard Air Force Base, near
Wichita Falls, TX. I was trained in physical therapy at the
sprawling Medical Service School there and then worked in the
large Sheppard Hospital's physical therapy clinic for much of my
tour before operating my own clinic at a pilot training base in
Georgia. I probably departed Sheppard AFB about three years
before "G*MAN" got there.


Robert Barrow







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Nov > Nov 20

               HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 11-19-04

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO Research <hbccufo.nul>
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:33:21 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 08:30:41 -0500
Subject: HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 11-19-04


HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings

Release Date: November 19, 2004

Southern West Virginia 1930's Red Glowing Fireballs

Date: Spring of 1932 or 1933
Time: Evening

Hi Brian

My grandmother lived in rural southern West Virginia near a
small town nestled in the Appalachian foothills. There were very
few cars in those days so most people walked to and from town or
church often for miles along hilly paths or long stretches of
isolated dirt roadways night or day.

It was in the spring of around 1932 or 1933 that grandma, who
was in her 40's , had been returning to her home from town which
was just a couple miles away. It was near dusk when she found
herself on a particularly isolated stretch of road near a hill
the locals had dubbed "Water Tank Hill". At the time, she was
the only one on the road and as far as she knew the only one who
witnessed this event.

"Water Tank Hill" was known apparently then for its "ghost
lights". Evidently, at some point in time, these ghostly lights
were seen by various people as "red, glowing fireballs" which
would zig zag or bob along this hill and adjacent ridges. As
mysteriously as they would appear, they would disappear - then
reappear again in cycles.

Grandma had just started down the gentle slope in the road when
suddenly something shot out just in front and above her in the
sky from a ridge near the "infamous" Water Tank Hill. She said
it had so startled her that she actually "froze " in midstep.
The next thought in her mind was that she was looking at one of
the "ghost lights". Her description of it therefore fit what the
others had apparently been seeing during the nights - "red,
glowing" or "fireball".

The next second she realized it had to be something other than a
"ghost light" and that frightened her even more because she had
no explanation at all for what she was seeing. The red object
hovered (as I recall, it made no sound ) and she saw
"protrusions" from the object. When she was asked just what she
meant by that, her reply was 'well, like antennas or legs
sticking out from it". It therefore in her mind was "machine",
not "ghost" and this defied any concept of any machine she knew
about. I asked her if it somehow could've been an airplane, but
she shook her head emphatically 'no'.

She went on to say that once she saw these strange protrusions,
she ran like "a scared rabbit" the rest of the way home. She
didn't know if the object followed her for she was too afraid to
look up. Once she got inside the house and bolted the door (a
rare thing for one to do in those days, as people often left
their doors unlocked all hours), she wouldn't look out. My
grandma was not the person who was easily frightened. But what
she saw that spring night unnerved her for sometime.

It's just possible she was the only one who got a good look at
the "ghost lights " that made their appearances around this
hill.

From her description, I rather think that these lights were more
UFO related than will o' wisps or ghost-related.

Thank you

Thank you to the person for their report.

--------------------

Southern West Virginia 1930's Large" Ball Of White Light Overhead

Date: 1930's
Time: Approximately 9:00 p.m.

This possible UFO sighting occurred around the mid to late
1930's in southern West Virginia. It occurred about 3 miles
distant from the sighting my grandma had earlier in that decade
of a possible UFO.

James, whose brother had married into our family, was a no
nonsense kind of person. A hard worker, who raised a large
family, he was also known as one who was "afraid of nothing and
no one".

On the night this happened, James had left the church which let
out around 9:00 p.m. He had a long walk to his home down a
country road known as Saw Mill Road. Often, especially after
church services or revivals, groups of people would be walking
together on the road to their respective homes. Whether or not
James had such company for awhile isn't known, but he was
definitely by himself when this event happened. As to whether
anyone else in the area on their way home may have witnessed
something unusual in the skies that night is unknown.

At any rate, not too far from the church, the road had a steep
uphill grade. It was banked by a forest on one side and small
meadow below on the right. As James reached the top of this
hill, he began to feel uncomfortable. He wasn't afraid or
spooked by anything, but the feeling that overcame him caused
him to be wary. As we use to say "to put one's guard up". He
looked around as he walked, but saw nor heard anything unusual.

He had reached the bottom of the hill and had walked less than
five minutes further when something caused him to look behind
him. It was never made clear whether it was a sound, a flash of
light, or that feeling that someone was following that caused
him to do this.

But in doing so, what he saw was a "large" ball of white light
suspended very low and very near him. One thing he knew for
certain about this was - it wasn't the moon.

If James expressed sheer fear he never indicated it to his
family when telling the story. In fact, there was never any
indication that he was so frightened that he bolted.

His exact words were "the faster I walked, the faster it picked
up speed". The object kept right up with him. It never
attempted to overcome him or out distance him. Instead it
tagged along behind him on the long road like a wary dog for
approximately another mile.

When James reached the forks of the Saw Mill Road, the white
ball of light had suddenly disappeared. "I looked one second
and it was there. The next, it was gone." He had not witnessed
whether it sped away or just blinked out.

Someone in later years suggested that the white ball of light
might have been something like "swamp gas" or some such
phenomena as that. I find it difficult to believe that a ball of
"swamp gas" would tag along behind someone, making every twist
and turn of the road, for a mile or so as this one did.

As far as I know, James never offered an explanation himself as
to what he thought it might be. Given his character, I believe
he just told the events as they happened and somewhere in his
mind classified it as something that was profoundly out of the
ordinary in his life. Something as it turned out would never
happen again to him.

Thank you to the person for their report.

------------------

Oxford, U.K. Lights In The Night Sky

Date: August 1967
Time: Evening

Message: this is a report I've been wanting to submit since I
discovered your site, but since there were 2 other witnesses, I
really wanted to verify I had the facts right with them both. We
reckon it was August 1967, I was driving alone downhill on a
quiet road on the outskirts of Oxford, I spotted a single, quite
bright light to my right, it turned before reaching me, I then
saw a second light which did the same, being used to aircraft
night flying I knew there was something odd, (no nav. lights,
etc.) I saw them returning so I stopped & turned off the engine.
I could hear nothing but grew alarmed as they seemed to come
toward me! I rapidly drove the 5 miles home and dragged my two
sisters out, who were very keen to see what I was excited about
and returned to the spot, this must have taken 20mins + but they
were still there, slightly farther away..and there were three

I stopped, turned off the engine and we watched them circling
until they went beyond high ground, I actually tried to find
them again but had to call it a day, although I have submitted 5
sightings now, this was the one that really started it, and I
had 2 great witnesses, yet I've never been given a sensible
answer to what they were, we did try and report it, but we never
heard anything. The facts on this sighting are, if an aircraft
comes within 1/2 to 1 mile in a quiet area (they clearly went
below a known distance skyline in clear conditions) you will see
the nav. lights. We saw I single steady light from the front
only, and you will hear the engines, we heard absolutely
nothing, and believe me it was a quiet area.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

-----------------

Saskatoon, Saskatchewan Saucer Shaped Craft With Legs

Date: November 2002
Time: 11:50 a.m.

Number of witnesses: 4
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Saucer with legs.

Full Description of event/sighting: I was driving my son age 14
and my roommates twins age 9 to my sons basketball game. We were
driving down circle drive bridge going west when I looked up in
the sky and noticed a metal object in the sky. This object was
located above but just behind the Rona building not too high up.
I told the kids to have a look at this thing and we were all in
awe. The traffic light at Circle Drive and Miller Ave, it turned
red so then we had a better look. This object which I believe
was a UFO, was not moving, it was just sitting there idle in the
sky. It was a metal saucer shape with about 5 legs with these
large metal balls under the legs but not attached to the legs.
These balls were idle spinning very fast. It was almost like the
spinning balls were keeping the UFO in mid air with the force.
Then the balls started moving in a counter clockwise direction
(still spinning) underneath the object in a circle.

The balls were evenly spaced as they were circling underneath
and then the balls started to make a wider circle and then they
looked like they were going to move up into the underneath of
the object. The light turned green and we had to go so what ever
happened after that I'm not sure. I wanted to just sit there and
watch this thing till the end but my son was getting upset
because we were going to be late for his basketball game. An
hour later on our way home we kept our eyes on the sky but this
object was gone. I'm just thankful that I had other people with
me who saw this because when I tell people they don't believe
me, even my best friend thinks I'm cracked. Then about a month
or two ago I was reading an article in the Star Phoenix about
crop circles being reported at farms just outside the city.They
showed a picture of a crop circle where the crop was flattened
by something in a counter clockwise motion. As I was looking at
the circle, and the size of the circle, to me it sounds like the
object I seen could of made a crop circle like that. The way the
metal balls were spinning idle very fast and then the way they
were circling around the underneath of the object going in a
counter clockwise direction and the magnetic force feeling
people were having. I know there's no explanation for these crop
circles but this could be one of them to take into
consideration.

I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to tell
my story.

Thank you to the witness for the report and diagram of the
object.

-----------------------

Smithers, British Columbia Another Witness Sees Same Object

Date: September 22, 2004
Time: 6:40 a.m.

I took a telephone call from a witness who resides approximately
10 miles west of Smithers, B.C. in the area of Avalon. He stated
that he had picked up the Smithers Interior Newspaper on
November 17, 2004 and read the article on UFO sightings for
around the area. When the man read the report for September 22,
2004 he called to his wife and told her that he had witnessed
the very same thing on the same day and at the exact time. The
witness keeps a diary and his wife had entered the strange
sighting for that day in his book.

The gentleman was sitting in his home having his morning cup of
coffee and looking out his picture window. The fellow said he
has a great view of the surrounding area and can see for a long
way off into the distance. All of a sudden something in the sky
caught his attention which he thought it looked odd. As he
watched, this elongated/football shaped object moved across the
sky traveling slightly in a downward motion. The witness said it
took approximately 15 to 20 seconds before he lost sight of it.
The man also noted the object was not very high in altitude and
seemed to travel over the tree tops. The object traveled from
the southwest heading northeast. There was no trail or tail
following behind the object. The color of it was reported to be
a bluish green. The fellow told me is was really silent in his
home as his wife was still in bed and he had no radio or TV on.
He heard no sound from the object at all.

The witness felt the object was going to land or hit the Babine
mountains as it had gone into the cloud cover which was hanging
very low over the mountain range. He also called the Smithers
Airport after the event was over asking them if they had any
information on what he had observed, the airport employees
didn't know anything about it.

HBCC UFO Note: This same object was observed by a lady driving
into Smithers from her home in Telkwa, B.C. Her report can be
read at:
http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=18
85

Thank you to the witness for their report.

-----------------------

Kaufman County, Texas Red/Orange Ball Of light

Date: October 30, 2004
Time: Approximately 7:00 p.m.

Hi Brian

My grandson and I were out taking pictures right at sundown and
after on 10-30-04. I got him a camera/binocular 8x for his
birthday, (he's nine years old), and these are a couple pictures
he took. It was approximately 7:00 p.m. because the sun had
already gone down. I asked him where he took these pictures in
what direction, and he pointed behind my house which is south.
He said he took only these two because after the second one the
light disappeared. Earlier in the day, .about 1:00 p.m., a high
flying red balloon came over and he got a picture of it. When I
first saw it, I thought it was a red orb. I took a couple
pictures earlier in the year of a red orb in the clouds, but
this one was just a balloon. Anyway, he knows I send you
pictures and he wanted me to send you his.

Thank you to the person for sending the report and pictures.

------------------------

California - Deputy Sheriff Witnessed 4 To 6 Diamond Shaped
Objects

Date: October 30, 2004
Time: Approx: Midnight

Brian,

I have never been a believer in UFO�s, I�m still not sure if I
am. Let me tell you my story. I am a Deputy Sheriff in (removed)
California. On 10-30- 04, at about midnight, I was on patrol
driving down the main street of the city. I saw faint golden
glow in the western sky moving slowly. I pulled my vehicle into
a dark parking lot to get a better look. I saw 4 to 6 lights
almost diamond shaped traveling E/N in the sky. It didn�t look
any higher than the average aircraft would fly in the area (we
live close to a large Navy Air War Base). I noticed there was
no sound from the air craft which seemed impossible for the
altitude it was traveling. I watched it for about 15 minutes
until it disappeared into the eastern sky.

I wrote it off as something the Navy base was involved with, but
has bothered me since that time. Tonight (11-8-04) curiosity got
the best of me and I looked up a UFO website just for something
to do. I located a UFO sighting report dated 10-30-04, at 11:00
a.m. from Phoenix AR. I chuckled when I read the report because
it sounded like what I saw but I thought any story could sound
like mine. I saw that there were pictures I could look at so I
did. My heart almost stopped. The photographs were exactly what
I saw. I don�t know what to believe. I always thought UFO�s were
for crack pots.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

------------------------

Transcona, Winnipeg Manitoba Fireball Sighting

Date: November 3, 2004
Time: 6:30 a.m.

Message: From my Backyard, I witnessed a large Fireball
descending rapidly in the North-West Sky in Transcona, Winnipeg,
Manitoba on Wednesday November 3rd at 6:30 am. It was very
bright and some-what Green in Color, similar to a Street Signal
Light, but very Bright. It lit up the sky even when it went
behind low level clouds. I lost sight of it as it descended
below Houses on the Street. Do you know what this was? A
meteorite or Space Debris? Sincerely.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

--------------------

Granite Falls, North Carolina Disc Shaped Objects

Date: November 7, 2004
Time: Between 6:30 p.m. and 7:00 p.m.

Number of witnesses: 1
Number of objects: 2
Shape of objects: Disc

Full Description of event/sighting: I was on my way to the local
video store and a light in the sky caught my attention. I
looked up and to my left and there was a disc shaped object with
white lights similar to chasing lights on a Christmas tree going
all the way around this object with one red light on either side
of the object. It was moving faster than anything I've ever
seen in a straight line across the sky.

I continued to the video store and on my way back home, decided
to investigate further. The area that I saw this is fairly
rural with lots of hills and trees so I had a difficult time
finding it.

I drove to a part of the road that I was already on to an area
that I know that doesn't have so many trees and street lights.
 I found one object and another not too far from it that was
identical to the first. They seemed to be communicating with
one another by way of a white light that would come out of the
side of one and the other would respond. This went on for about
5 seconds. One of the objects flew away quickly while the other
seemed to hover motionless for just a couple of seconds. They
came back into close proximity once but didn't seem to be
communicating and appeared to be level with each other until one
of them moved in a straight line vertically a short distance
then just as quickly returned to a level position with the other
one.

I drove home because I didn't want to be stopped on the road for
long and other cars kept driving up behind me. I did stop for
no more than 5 minutes while I was watching them seemingly
communicate though.

I never felt any threat or fear of any kind (possibly out of
ignorance). There have been many times in my life that I've
wondered if a particular object was in fact a UFO.....this time
I was certain.

Thank you for taking the time to read this.

Thank you to the witness for their report.

---------------

Gardena, California V Shaped Craft

Date: November 13, 2004
Time: 8:38 p.m.

Number of witnesses: 2
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: V shaped craft.

Full Description of event/sighting: It was the night of 11-13-
04, My sister was having a birthday party for her daughter. My
brother and I were outside talking and looking up at the stars.
It was a clear evening, no clouds in sight. I saw something fly
overhead, I wasn't sure I was seeing it, so I asked my brother
to look. The object was in a V shape, and flew overhead as if
it were gliding, it made no sound, very quite. This craft
blended into the night sky, almost like camouflage. It had very
faint glowing lights, three or four on each bottom side of the
craft, with one at the tip of the V. My brother thought it was
geese flying over; I grabbed my binoculars to get a better look,
and could see the outline of the craft. It was shaped like a
"V", I had my brother take a look and he confirmed it.

In the past year, in the same city, on separate occasions I have
seen three different UFO's. I have seen a black triangle craft,
a sphere, and now the V shape craft.

Additional Information:

Hi Brian,

Thank you for your response.

No, I did not see any type of exhaust coming from the craft.

I did not see any aircraft following it, or in the general
surrounding area. I find it odd that there were no planes or
military aircraft within the airspace at the time of the
sighting. On a usual evening, we see commercial jetliners and or
commuter planes heading towards Hawthorne or LAX airport, yet
within a 15 min. time span, we did not see any. It was as if the
craft did not want to be seen.

Note: This craft did not fly on the same path that our
commercial aircraft fly.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

-----------------

Over Lake Ontario, Toronto Flashing Light

Date: November 14, 2004
Time: 7:00 p.m.

Hi Brian,

Well it was such a clear starry night here tonight, 7:00 p.m. I
went out to my deck to fill the bird feeders and had a smoke I
looked around the sky, I saw all the usual stars and then I
observed approx. over Lake Ontario (60km south east of here) a
flashing light. Because I had the tree line, it made it easier
for me to see that it wasn't a star or a plane. I waited for a
good 45 min. Then went in to eat dinner, my son's friend and his
girlfriend dropped in just before we sat down and I pointed it
out to them, well that was it the two of them watched for quite
some time and they said they could see it move up and the lights
were flashing reds, blue and yellow.

We kept going to check on it. It appears to be coming directly
across the sky slower than a satellite, but much faster than the
star formations move. Anyway the 26 year olds that were here
tonight were pretty convinced, and every time I get a chance to
show these UFOs to people, the more people I get to believe.

Something tells me we're going to have a lot of activity over
the next couple of months, so I'll keep my eyes open to the sky,
as always!

Additional Information:

It appeared to be over Lake Ontario, Toronto. Which is south,
south, east from me I'm on the Niagara Escarpment, north west.
It was at my tree line when we first noticed it, we watched it
slowly work its way up and then within a couple of hours it
seemed to be coming directly towards us.The lights were visibly
turning, and it would sway back and forth as it got higher in
the sky. Honestly, to the naked eye it may have appeared to be a
plane, but of course a plane couldn't possibly take that long to
come across the sky. And as I said I had new witnesses here who
were totally in awe.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

--------------

Vancouver, B.C. Lights

Date: November 15, 2004
Time: 5:20 p.m.

Hi Brian, I was looking at the Kat Kam last night and noticed
that cluster of lights was hanging in the sky again just to the
south of the Planetarium and just over UBC. The lights were
there from approx. Nov. 15, 04 - 17:20 until Nov. 16, 04 - 07:10.
To me it just appears to be a reflection from some group of
lights but although I scanned the whole photo I could not find
anything which would account for them. I�ve noticed that I will
sometimes get similar types of reflection since my windows have
double panes and the inner glass reflects onto the outer. But
if this was the case that group of lights should be there every
night. I tried checking back for the past two weeks and there
was nothing, it appears to be a one night appearance. I also
tried copying the shot and zooming in on the lights but it was
inconclusive as to just what they are. There doesn't appear to
be any structure around them. Anyway maybe if you are interested
you might take a look and see what you think.

Thank you to the person for the report.

Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO Research Home - Phone 250 845 2189
email: hbccufo.nul Website: http://www.hbccufo.com
Redirect: http://www.canadianufo.com HBCC UFO RESEARCH
Newsletter At:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HBCC_UFO_Newsletter/







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   Nov > Nov 20

                           About That Alien Probe

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 07:16:35 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 08:34:04 -0500
Subject: About That Alien Probe


Yes, you know that probe abductees describe round about their
south ends.

If I recall, the best cells to use for cloning come from the
digestive tract. Reason being they're tougher than the rest.

Certain cells don't grow old. Small intestine, heart tissue,
some glands. If one were to need cells for repair or patchwork
one might extract them from the organs and glands mentioned.

Probably why some cloned animals didn't 'take', was that the
parent cells didn't come from the more resilient cells.


Best,

Greg








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                                  Shostack

From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 07:29:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 08:41:53 -0500
Subject: Shostack


You can't beat the laws of physics. Seth should know, he's a
qualified astronomer.

http://www.ncbuy.com/news/2004-11-19/1011129.html

Shoot me if I'm ever as confident with our knowledge as he is.
Last I checked we still had things to learn in physics. Seth
have a T.O.E?

I thought I would start a 'Things that bug me/you about Seth'
list.

1. I recently listened to the Stanton/Seth debate.

He asked Stanton what progress has been made in Ufology? Have we
gained in our understanding in 50 years from it?

Um, have we gained from SETI?

2. SETI has no evidence that aliens are sending signals, yet
this doesn't bother him. He has a problem with the evidence - or
lack of - in ufology though. At least there is evidence to
bicker about.

It's as if he doesn't apply his own standards to his own field.

Decades and nothing to show for it in Seti, and he dares to pick
on ufology?

When is he going to realize that maybe, just maybe, he needs to
actually survey the skies for saucers, or crop fields for
possible ET activity, pastures, abductee's homes etc.

SETI knows that their chances increase in picking up radio
signals if they survey, yet they don't think to do that when it
comes to the possibilty of ET visitation?

3. Seth concludes that there is no chance of coming face to face
with aliens in the near future. Um, how does he know we haven't
already? If you conclude things you can't prove, that's blind
faith. And to the extent you arrogantly hold your position and
accuse others of insufficient evidence, all the while you not
having any? Well, that's not science is it? Someone put a leash
on his dogma please.

4. Seth told Stanton that the government cover-up was a
"convieniant out". To the suggestion that Seth should look into
ufology, he states "that is what ufologists are for". Is that
not a cop out?

To be continued... might add more later.

Feel free to add to my list. I know there is a lot more to be
said.







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                    Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 06:54:16 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 08:46:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Lehmberg


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:13:01 +0000
>Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft?

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 10:43:48 -0600
>>Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft?

<snip>

>>Jeez Mr. Boone, I'd almost have to... just to honor the
>>shoulders on which I presently stand.

>I think the first thing that needs to be said on this thread is
>that, according to my extensive research and that of others, you
>are not normally 'invited'. You are taken whether you like it or
>not. So although it may be fun to speculate on how you would
>react to confronting an alien who acts like a character in a
>benign science fiction movie and politely invites you on board,
>that is not the reality that 99% of experiencers have faced.

>My research causes me to conclude that if I ever encountered a
>landed UFO-craft at close range, I would - in the language of
>American Civil War soldiers - skedaddle.


Respectfully Sir, my experience on and off the aggregate
battlefield is to put the pedal to the floor, in hopes I can 'cut
that hog in half'. I'd try to avoid walking into the 'reactor
tube', but for reasons stated, I wouldn't skedaddle. I'm betting
Dr. MacDonald wouldn't have either.

As to having a choice in the matter, why should they ask
permission? We wouldn't.


alienview.nul -:=A6:-
  www.AlienView.net







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                         Top Secret Black Triangles

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 09:16:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 09:16:55 -0500
Subject: Top Secret Black Triangles




Source: KLAS-TV 8 - Las Vegas,  Nevada

http://www.klas-tv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2589794&nav=168XTKsN

11-18-04

[Video Report at site]


Top Secret Black Triangles

George Knapp
Investigative Reporter


Eyewitnesses all over the country are reporting glimpses of
something large, dark and mysterious in the skies above big
cities and busy highways. The crafts are often described as
triangular in shape, silent in their movements, and of unknown
origin, and they've been seen here in southern Nevada. It looks
like these mystery craft might be a secret military project, but
if so, why are they flying around in the open?

"Look at them, there's three or four of them." In 1997,
thousands of eyewitnesses watched in awe as a boomerang-shaped
formation of lights cruised slowly and silently over the city of
Phoenix. "They're lined up in a pattern." Witnesses first
thought these were separate lights, flying in formation, but
quickly realized the lights were all part of a single, gigantic
something.

Military officials were asked about the Phoenix lights but said
they hadn't seen anything. Months later, they explained that a
National Guard unit had been training with flares near the city.
The public didn't buy it.

Eight years earlier, the airspace over Belgium was repeatedly
violated by huge unidentified black triangles. Ten thousand
witnesses saw them. Several were photographed. The Belgian Air
Force dispatched F-126s to intercept and destroy the unknown
intruders, but the triangles performed maneuvers that seem
virtually impossible.

Dr. Colm Kelleher said, "They launched on several occasions top
of the line military aircraft against these things and they were
left in the dust. One minute they're overhead, and the next
they're over the horizon."

Dr. Kelleher is a research scientist who spent several years
with the National Institute for Discovery Science, or NIDS, a
private Las Vegas science organization. A four-year NIDS study
of the mystery triangles has found that these craft have been
seen for decades all over the world.

There were a daylight sightings in Russia in the 70s. In the
early 80s, there were hundreds of nighttime sightings in rural
New York. Belgium was inundated in the late 80s, but more
recently, the mystery triangles have really come out of the
closet and have been seen in every state, including Nevada,
flying low and slow over cities.

Dr. Kelleher describes, "These things are huge, football field
sized. Sometimes they are stealthy; sometimes flying with very
bright lights, disco-flashing lights -- red, green, blue, some
bright white lights. They're always silent."

NIDS now has a database of more than a 1,000 black triangle
reports, 17 of them from Nevada. The witnesses often say the
craft seem to float, like a blimp or airship, but they are also
capable of aeronautical magic.

"They were able to drop altitude 10,000-20,000 feet in a matter
of seconds. They went from a hovering position to several
thousand miles an hour, and this was caught on radar," said Dr.
Kelleher.

"It was heading straight north. The right edge was over that
tree." Las Vegas journalist Cateland White was in the backyard
of her southeast Las Vegas home last year when she saw a dark
behemoth fly over. She drew a picture and described, "It was
triangular shaped with rectangular reflectors. No interior light
at all. By the time it got out of sight, it was 5-8 minutes. It
was so slow, I couldn't figure out how it was staying in the
air."

White called the police, who connected her to Nellis Air Force
Base, which is the direction the triangle seemed headed. "The
man said, 'I don't want you to talk about this anymore, and
you're gonna forget it.' I said, 'Look buddy, I'm not drinking,
I'm not on drugs, something is headed for your base.' Then he
got real terse and said, 'Mam, I'm gonna tell you one more time
and this is the last time I'm gonna tell you. Forget what you
saw and don't tell anybody.' At that point, I was freaked,"
described White.

The frequent proximity of triangle sightings to air force bases
led NIDS to conclude two years ago that the craft must be part
of a secret military project. But in the two years since, the
triangles have become so prevalent over big cities and
interstate highways that the theory doesn't fit anymore.

Dr. Kelleher said, "Why would unacknowledged aircraft be flying
at 500 feet over populated areas? If you look at the B-2 and F-
117, prior to them being acknowledged, there was no flying over
populated areas. They flew in the desert. They flew at high
altitudes."

NIDS Investigations of the Flying Triangle Enigma:

http://www.nidsci.org/articles/8_25trireport.php



[UFO UpDates thanks Stuart Miller for the lead]







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                           Re: Shostack - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 08:15:38 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 14:57:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Shostack - Lehmberg


>From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 07:29:30 -0500
>Subject: Shostack

>You can't beat the laws of physics. Seth should know, he's a
>qualified astronomer.

<snip>

...who also uses, with confidence, Kal K. Korff as an
authoritative reference - when the mere suggestion is known
(...and widely!) as palpably ludicrous.


alienview.nul  -:=A6:-
   www.AlienView.net







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                   Re: Top Secret Black Triangles - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 09:25:43 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 15:01:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Top Secret Black Triangles - Boone


>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers -
>Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 09:16:55 -0500
>Subject: Top Secret Black Triangles

>Source: KLAS-TV 8 - Las Vegas,  Nevada

>http://www.klas-tv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2589794&nav=168XTKsN

>11-18-04

>[Video Report at site]


>Top Secret Black Triangles

>George Knapp
>Investigative Reporter


>Eyewitnesses all over the country are reporting glimpses of
>something large, dark and mysterious in the skies above big
>cities and busy highways. The crafts are often described as
>triangular in shape, silent in their movements, and of unknown
>origin, and they've been seen here in southern Nevada. It looks
>like these mystery craft might be a secret military project, but
>if so, why are they flying around in the open?

<snip>

Hi again! As someone who has seen these craft up close on
multiple occasions having grown up in the Hudson Valley all I
can say is:

They're ours! Jeez. Enough already.


Best,

Greg







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                     Re: Board An Alien Craft? - LeClair

From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 09:29:43 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 15:04:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft? - LeClair


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:17:03 -0600
>Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft?

>>From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 00:06:54 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft?

<snip>

>>In short, yes, only if I could tape it, or get a piece of the
>>craft to bring back etc.

>I applaud your assumption that you _and_ your tape would make it
>back home. Watch out for the Kanamit ferry!! An anal probe could
>be just a fancy meat thermometer.

I only assumed that it is possible that I might return. It is
worth the try.

>Since videotape is faked all the time,

Not that many fake alien vids, and none that I know of, of the
interior of an et craft. There is no up close video of craft
that is landed with alien beings just inches away. Very hard to
fake that in a convincing way.

>and UFO parts would likely be made of some really common
>mineral like silicon or quartz,

Isotopes would be different.







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                      Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 06:37:15 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 15:05:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Hatch


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 00:27:38 -0500
>Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft?

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 05:13:11 EST
>>Subject: Board An 'Alien' Craft?

>>Well, if you got the invitation to board an alien craft,
>>would you?

<snip>

>Sure, well... maybe, if they promised to give me a nice, solid,
>safe, unearthly momento of my visit (a chunk of unknownium, for
>example); not just a lousy "I visited the Twilight Zone" T shirt

Hi Bruce:

Even if they gave you a tee-shirt, there's a 50-50 chance they
would put it on you backwards.


Best

Larry







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                      Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 07:19:56 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 15:07:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Hatch


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:13:01 +0000
>Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft?

<snip>

>I think the first thing that needs to be said on this thread is
>that, according to my extensive research and that of others, you
>are not normally 'invited'. You are taken whether you like it or
>not. So although it may be fun to speculate on how you would
>react to confronting an alien who acts like a character in a
>benign science fiction movie and politely invites you on board,
>that is not the reality that 99% of experiencers have faced.

>My research causes me to conclude that if I ever encountered a
>landed UFO-craft at close range, I would - in the language of
>American Civil War soldiers - skedaddle.


Hi Dick:

I agree there are few (any?) credible cases of people being
invited on board voluntarily.

Given that entirely unlikely option, I would just be torn in
half. I would have to ask questions first:

* Will I be returned promptly and safely?
* Is it OK to smoke inside?
* Can I have take some unobtainium souvenirs?
* Can I use the john? [burp]


Best

- Larry








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                         Re: Ithaca NY UFOs - Barrow

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 08:05:50 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 15:11:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Ithaca NY UFOs - Barrow


>From: Robert Barrow <robertbarrow.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 19:42:13 -0500
>Subject: Re: Ithaca NY UFOs

>[Non-subscriber Post]

>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 04:35:15 -0800
>>Subject: Ithaca NY UFOs

>>I forward the message below in case anyone interested. "G-man"
>>in New York state wrote in via my website.

>>I will connect parties on-list or off, as you prefer..

<snip>

>>Subject: NY UFO's
>>Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:27:44 EST
>>From: Gmanxxx.nul
>>To: webmaster.nul

>>Mr. Hatch,

>>My name is Geoffrey "G*MAN" Howe. I have a mountain of evidence
>>(36 newsclippings alone) about a "flap" that happened in the
>>Ithaca, NY region of NY State in and around (starting?
>>continuing?) 1966-present.

>>Air Force Project Blue Book investigated this "flap", but
>>curiously when I received my Top Secret clearance from the USAF
>>in 1974, I could find no reference to this.

>>Furthermore, I was extensively questioned by the NSA about my
>>belief's regarding UFO's after reading Blue Book, and some
>>amazing things happened on my base, Shepherd AFB, Whititaha
>>Falls, TX.

>>This is the base with some of the highest level (no pun
>>intended)! of UFO sightings by both military and civilians
>>in the USAF, next to White Sands.

<snip>

Does G*MAN think Bluebook is a physical book - you can hold in
your hand?

>>I have been seen by; Peter Robbins, Budd Hopkins, and Richard
>>Dolan re; my case. Interested? I could use a pro's help.

>>I have a huge amount of interviews, clippings, etc., to validate
>>my investigation.

>The last I ever expected to see on the UFO UpDates List, as
>someone who prefers to read rather than contribute,
>was an apparent reference via Mr. Hatch and "G*MAN" to
>the Ithaca - and that would also include Newfield -
>New York UFO reports which were particularly newsworthy
>in the mid 1960s.

>I guess it's time that I broke my semi-silence on this
>situation, and there couldn't be a better place than UFO UpDates
>to do so.

<snip>

Hello Robert:

Since UFO UpDates is public, but G*MAN Howe is apparently not on
the List, I took the liberty of emailing your UFO UpDates
post to him at his AOL email address.

I will ask his permission to send you his actual address,
off-List, and of course pass it along depending.  I think he will
OK that.

I am still entering cases from Richard Hall's book (Alien
Invasion...) which catalogs many cases in the period 1966-67.
Anything new about Ithaca mid-60s UFO matters could well
dovetail into that.

Thanks for responding!


- Larry Hatch







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                     Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Harney

From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 19:20:08 -0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 15:14:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Harney


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:13:01 +0000
>Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft?

<snip>

>I think the first thing that needs to be said on this thread is
>that, according to my extensive research and that of others, you
>are not normally 'invited'. You are taken whether you like it or
>not. So although it may be fun to speculate on how you would
>react to confronting an alien who acts like a character in a
>benign science fiction movie and politely invites you on board,
>that is not the reality that 99% of experiencers have faced.

If you just take the raw data, i.e. the available UFO narratives
about alleged encounters with ETs, then you will find that many
of them are accounts of people being invited on board the craft
rather than being abducted. Timothy Good has compiled a
fascinating collection of such narratives in his book "Alien
Base" (Century, London, 1998).

It is only by arbitrarily rejecting such stories and accepting
only "abduction" reports that you can arrive at the 99% figure.


John Harney








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                         Re: Ithaca NY UFOs - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 14:21:14 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 15:17:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Ithaca NY UFOs - Sparks


>From: Robert Barrow <robertbarrow.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 19:42:13 -0500
>Subject: Re: Ithaca NY UFOs

<snip>

>I asked Capt. Todd, during a phone conversation in which he was
>quite emotional and disturbed, what in the world was wrong.
>"Trouble." he replied. "Wright-Patterson found out that (the
>civilian investigators) were screaming about our investigation
>in Newfield." So what, I wondered? "That's the problem," Todd
>returned. "Wright-Patt called me and wanted to know why I was
>down there."

>"Didn't they know why?" I asked, now totally confused.

>"I told them I was ordered to go," he shot back.

>"I thought _they_ - Blue Book - ordered you to go," I countered!

>The phone conversation ended abruptly, he would not speak
>further with me on this occasion. Capt. Todd, or First Lt.
>Whomever, he was off the phone, click.

Most likely the Lt. was with AFOSI, which has apparently been
tasked to monitor and disrupt UFO groups and investigators on a
low priority low-scale basis, on the grounds that UFO groups
interfere with the AF's mission and are a potentially subversive
national security threat. Notice that this contact between you
and the Lt. cost nothing, just a few hours of time spread over a
few months. This is how AFOSI typically develops 'contacts' for
counterintelligence, it's no different with UFO-related
contacts.

AFOSI does not answer to Wright-Pat (nor to Blue Book) and is
not bound by usual rules of communication through chain of
command.

The Newfield, NY, case, main sighting Oct. 24, 1967, is in the
Condon Report anonymously as Case 38, and mentions two locals
who hyped up claims of "800 sightings" and managed to arrange a
press conference with Hynek, two AF reps and 4 reporters.







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                            Re: Shostack - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 15:38:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:01:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Shostack - White


>From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 07:29:30 -0500
>Subject: Shostack

<snip>

>2. SETI has no evidence that aliens are sending signals,

I've seen and heard about enough government crimes in my short
63 years to put _zero_ faith in reports that SETI hasn't picked
up any alien signals yet. It may be true, but there is an equal
chance they _have_ and haven't told the public about such finds
yet. SETI-at-Home? Could be they only post data they know is
'clean'.


Eleanor White







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                            Just Letting You Know

From: Robert Frola <ufologist.nul>
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 07:26:55 +1000
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:03:43 -0500
Subject: Just Letting You Know


Hi All,

Just letting you know on the 1st March Diane Harrison & I will
be leaving Australia for a 9 week holiday from 1st March to 3rd
May

First stop: 2nd to 13th March Cairo. England 13th to 19th March
with a visit to Scotland. 19th ferry over to France on to Spain
and Italy, back to the UK on 30th March. Arrive LA on the 2nd
April and staying until the 23 April. Leave LA 23rd arrive New
Zealand 25th to 3rd May and back home.

Diane & I hope to catch up with many of the people we have
chatted to on the phone and over the Internet.

We have no set itinerary - we are free agents, just looking
forward to a break. If anyone would like Diane and I to drop in
for a visit just let us know your location we will be more than
happy to do so if possible.

While in the US we will be doing the tourist thing hopping to
visit Roswell and the Roswell museum plus many more sights and
as you all know we are well into UFO research so if you're
having a UFO meeting and it fits within our scheduled dates of
arrival in these countries UK - SCOT - FR - SP - IT - US - NZ
and you would like us to pop in just let us know when and where
we will try and be there.


Regards

Robert Frola
Editor
The Australasian UFOlogist Magazine
auforn.nul

Co-Editor
The Hard Evidence Magazine.
auforn.nul

National Director
The Australian UFO Research Network and UFO Hotline.
National Skywatch Director for Australia

Tel number 1800 77 22 88 a Free Call
Australian UFO Research Network -
http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn
E-mail auforn.nul

A non profit organisation
PO Box 738
Beaudesert 4285
QLD Australia
Tel/Fax 07 55 487205







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                      Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 21:33:59 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:05:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Hall


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 19:20:08 -0000
>Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft?

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:13:01 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft?

>>I think the first thing that needs to be said on this thread is
>>that, according to my extensive research and that of others, you
>>are not normally 'invited'. You are taken whether you like it or
>>not. So although it may be fun to speculate on how you would
>>react to confronting an alien who acts like a character in a
>>benign science fiction movie and politely invites you on board,
>>that is not the reality that 99% of experiencers have faced.

>If you just take the raw data, i.e. the available UFO narratives
>about alleged encounters with ETs, then you will find that many
>of them are accounts of people being invited on board the craft
>rather than being abducted. Timothy Good has compiled a
>fascinating collection of such narratives in his book "Alien
>Base" (Century, London, 1998).

>It is only by arbitrarily rejecting such stories and accepting
>only "abduction" reports that you can arrive at the 99% figure.


John,

Once again, you should read The UFO Evidence Vol. II before you
spout off about what raw (or other) data I have arbitrarily or
critically accepted or ignored. Timothy Good's `fascinating
narratives' notwithstanding, I engage in investigation and
analysis, not folklore or story telling. Tim Good, from my own
direct knowledge, accepts stories as valid from some pretty
shaky witnesses whom I happen to know soemthing about.

Presumably you are referring to so-called contactee stories. I
have in the past investigated dozens of those. How many have you
investigated? There are damn few (if any) credible polite
invitation stories. There are hundreds of credible abduction
stories. Witness credibility matters. There is a big difference
between raw data and investigated data.


 - Dick







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                          Re: Shostack - Dickenson

From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul>
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 21:34:11 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:07:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Shostack - Dickenson


>From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 07:29:30 -0500
>Subject: Shostack

>You can't beat the laws of physics. Seth should know, he's a
>qualified astronomer.

Aaron, couldn't agree with you more. Lots of evasion there.

Especially w.r.t. SETI's restriction to technology that advanced
civilizations will definitely _not_ be using, now or ever - e.g.
radio.

Hope you might agree with "setigift2" conclusions, and possible
reasons for SETI tardiness - outlined at "badsci.txt"


Best
cheers
Ray D

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Perceptions" http://www.perceptions.couk.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







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                    Software Firm Joins Search For Aliens

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 19:08:17 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:10:58 -0500
Subject: Software Firm Joins Search For Aliens


Source: Flying Saucer Review
        Vol 49/1, Spring 2004
        pp. 17&18

http://www.fsr.org.uk


Software firm joins search for aliens. But are they already
here?

A special report compiled by FSR

The following story broke on 22nd of March 2004, and in some
ways is very surprising, for Microsoft should be well aware that
in the next few decades computers will be ready to take us on to
the next stage of human, or human-computer, evolution. Soon,
computers will be in a position - perhaps with our help, or
perhaps not - to take computing into realms that were only
recently considered science-fiction. As a result, the subject of
consciousness - and where we could put it - should become much
better understood. Futurologists believe that in the next 100
years or less, computing will have the ability to transfer our
consciousness into software; or rather, into hardware-software,
and/or energy fields.

Consequently, we should acknowledge the possibility that aliens
more advanced than us have already mastered techniques which
will allow them to perform what to us would appear to be magic.
They may be able to communicate in ways far in advance of old-
 fashioned radio communication. They may have transferred their
consciousness into their environment and the wider environment
and, over millions or billions of years, involved in many
quantum leaps to something which will be completely foreign to
us and which we are unlikely to be aware of - unless they
occasionally present themselves to us as 'aliens'. Microsoft
might do better putting its money into research that looks for
other modes of communication.

In parallel, less advanced aliens may be using techniques that
we might recognise as being something of alien origin. These
techniques may have resulted in the wave of apparent alien
technology-oriented sightings that have persisted for the last
50 plus years. I saw "apparent alien technology" because that is
not always how it appears. We may be seeing their software too.
That software would of course be non-physical and might
represent an alien intrusion into our space-time frame. On the
other hand, some ufos may be physical craft from worlds that are
not much more advanced than ours, while others may represent an
interaction - intentional or otherwise - with an intelligence
millions or billions of years ahead of us.

The search for alien radio transmission can therefore probably
only lead us to know of the existence of aliens that are at a
similar technology level to us. By the time we get the signal,
though, the species behind it may have evolved considerably and
be using other techniques, and/or expanding its presence
exponentially across our galaxy.

The problem any species has with developing computers is that
progress towards mega advanced computing - involving perhaps a
species-computer 'life form' - can probably happen in quantum
leaps very rapidly, so much so that before they know it, they
have something on their hands which they had difficulty
envisaging in the first place. We may be only brief decades away
from that situation ourselves, or sooner if 'black' projects are
currently working on mega advanced computers. We would be
foolish indeed if we presumed they were not. PW, FSR.







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                  Re: Top Secret Black Triangles - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 08:20:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:15:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Top Secret Black Triangles - Maccabee


>Source: KLAS-TV 8 - Las Vegas, Nevada

>http://www.klas-tv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2589794&nav=168XTKsN

>11-18-04

>[Video Report at site]


>Top Secret Black Triangles

>George Knapp
>Investigative Reporter


>Eyewitnesses all over the country are reporting glimpses of
>something large, dark and mysterious in the skies above big
>cities and busy highways. The crafts are often described as
>triangular in shape, silent in their movements, and of unknown
>origin, and they've been seen here in southern Nevada. It looks
>like these mystery craft might be a secret military project, but
>if so, why are they flying around in the open?

>"Look at them, there's three or four of them." In 1997,
>thousands of eyewitnesses watched in awe as a boomerang-shaped
>formation of lights cruised slowly and silently over the city of
>Phoenix. "They're lined up in a pattern." Witnesses first
>thought these were separate lights, flying in formation, but
>quickly realized the lights were all part of a single, gigantic
>something.

>Military officials were asked about the Phoenix lights but said
>they hadn't seen anything. Months later, they explained that a
>National Guard unit had been training with flares near the city.
>The public didn't buy it.

George has done the typical "press thing" and combined two
reports: between 8 and 9 PM the UFO triangle flew southward and
passed over Phoenix.

Then at 10 PM (approx.) several people videotaped lights in the
sky that seemed to hover and seemed to outline a gigantic shape
(craft). However, my investigation turned up evidence that
suggests the 10 PM lights were distant flares.

Most news reports combined these two events into a single event,
which suggested that a huge triangle with bright lights had
passed over Phoenix and stayed in the vicinity for over an hour.







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                Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 08:20:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:17:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Maccabee


>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:51:50 -0500
>Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI

>>From: Brett Holman <b.holman.nul>
>>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:55:16 +1100
>>Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI

>>>Quantum "particles" are not particles in the usual sense of the
>>>word.

>>Well, they are particles in the usual sense of quantum
>>mechanics, so it's perfectly proper to describe them as such!

>>>Quarks, leptons, and newer constituents of the atom are either
>>>waves or evanescent elementals which seem to have the property
>>>of particles but are not particles.

>>If you are going to say they have the properties of particles
>>but aren't particles, you'd also have to say they have the
>>properties of waves but aren't waves either. They're both, or
>>neither ...

>>Actually, they are neither particles nor waves, but projections
>>of a state vector rotating through Hilbert space. (This may
>>require a re-definition of the word "actually", though!) The
>>truth is that trying to understand quantum mechanics in terms of
>>classical concepts like particles and waves can only get you so

>The attributes of quantum "particles" make then neither waves
>nor particles, and something totally foreign to description,
>like God.

>And "entanglement" doesn't mean, according to some Quantum
>theorists (Fritjof Capra, Paul Davies, John Wheeler), an
>intangible intertwining.

>It (actually) means that the "particles" physically embrace.
>(Freeman Dyson)

"Quantum particles" are subunits of matter or energy which obey
the rules of quantum mechanics.

The rules of quantum mechanics are embodied in equations which
allow one to calculate probable values of various observable
qualities (location, speed/momentum, energy) of the particles.

The probabilities depend upon the energies and momenta of the
particles. These probabilities "drive" the particles to behave
incertain statistical ways.

In some sense the probabilities act like forces that control
groups of particles (presumably they control individual
particles, but one can't measure all the attributes of a single
particle at particular time; all one can do is measure the
properties of a group - 'ensemble' - of particles and find the
statistical average values of the dynamical quantities
(speed/momentum, energy, location, etc.)







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                          Man In Moon May Be Mayan

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 13:55:00 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 13:55:00 -0500
Subject: Man In Moon May Be Mayan




Source; The South Bend Tribune - Indiana

http://www.southbendtribune.com/stories/2004/11/18/local.20041118-sbt-LOCL-B1-Ma
n_in_moon.sto

11-18-04


Man In Moon May Be Mayan

Student of ancient civilization's lore finds lunar connection to
carving

By Ken Bradford
Tribune Staff Writer

ELKHART -- Mike Berry saw it and knew it was important.

He just wasn't sure what it was.

"I just knew it was Mayan," he said.

Berry had been looking at photographs a friend had taken of the
moon.

On that day, for whatever reason, the dark pattern on the lunar
surface made a strong impression on him.

"It was a moment of recognition, a moment of affirmation," he
said.

And, for all he knows, maybe he's solved a Mayan riddle.

Berry, of Elkhart, isn't an astronomer or an archaeologist or a
historian.

But he's an intensely curious person who enjoys delving into the
unknown.

"I'm just a prolific reader," said Berry, a train engineer since
1978. He spends 10 to 12 hours a week reading, mainly about
history.

He knew a little bit about the Mayan culture from a trip to
Cozumel and Tulum in Mexico 30 years ago. His mother, Eleanor
Berry, had been a student of ancient civilizations, including
the Greeks, Egyptians, Mayans and Aztecs.

With the friend's moon photo in front of him, he began his
research online. Within an hour, he found his Mayan.

The moon figure was a dead-on match for the depiction of Lord
Pakal in the lost Mayan city of Palenque in southern Mexico.

His study of Palenque and Pakal opened another level of
intrigue.

The Mayans were known for their study of astronomy. It made
sense perfect sense to him that a tribute to their shaman-king,
who died in A.D. 683, would mirror the face they saw on the
moon.

But then, Berry found another path to explore.

Among archaeologists, Pakal is an intriguing figure.

Interest increased in 1952. After four years of digging through
debris in a secret passageway, Mexican archaeologist Alberto Ruz
Lhuillier found a sarcophagus that contained Pakal's bones.

The sarcophagus lid contained a drawing that has been
interpreted as Pakal, at the instant of his death, falling into
the underworld.

Some observers find the shape of the throne suspicious. To them,
it looks more like a rocket ship.

That interpretation got a lot of attention in 1968, when Swiss
author Erich von Daniken -- in "Chariots of the Gods" -- used
the Pakal figure as proof that ancient deities actually were
extraterrestrials.

Berry looks at the evidence and comes up with a completely
different conclusion.

He sees the scene as looking forward instead of backward. For
him, the lid is presaging the 1969 Apollo 11 landing on the
moon.

The Mayans, as a culture, kept a close touch with the
supernatural. Their kings, wizards and wise men used their
knowledge of the present to predict the future.

These seers created an elaborate calendar, suggesting when crops
should be planted and harvested and when wars should be fought.

They also predicted the significant events that would change
their world and ours, including the end of the world as we know
it in December 2012.

It would make sense, then, for the Mayans to be intensely
interested in mankind's greatest achievement, the Apollo 11 moon
landing.

And when he placed a photo of the sarcophagus drawing on top of
a moon map, Pakal's eye marks the exact spot of the 1969 lunar
landing.

He's interested in finding others who are interested in Lord
Pakal, the Mayan culture and the moon. His e-mail address is
michaelberry50.nul

"I know I'm going to get some ridicule and some non-believers,"
he said.

But he knows what he sees. And he knows you can see it too, if
you wish.






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   Nov > Nov 22

                Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Reynolds

From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 12:35:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:24:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Reynolds


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 08:20:55 -0500
>Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI

>"Quantum particles" are subunits of matter or energy which obey
>the rules of quantum mechanics.

>The rules of quantum mechanics are embodied in equations which
>allow one to calculate probable values of various observable
>qualities (location, speed/momentum, energy) of the particles.

>The probabilities depend upon the energies and momenta of the
>particles. These probabilities "drive" the particles to behave
>incertain statistical ways.

>In some sense the probabilities act like forces that control
>groups of particles (presumably they control individual
>particles, but one can't measure all the attributes of a single
>particle at particular time; all one can do is measure the
>properties of a group - 'ensemble' - of particles and find the
>statistical average values of the dynamical quantities
>(speed/momentum, energy, location, etc.)


What Dr. Maccabee's concise explanation of quantum mechanics
shows - which is relevant to UFO UpDates in a number of ways --
 is that there are mysteries at the cosmological level and, in
this instance, at the sub-micro level (the quantum level) of
reality, which are currently beyond us humans to comprehend.

This is what, if I understand him correctly, and I think I do,
Alfred Lehmberg (and a few other UFO UpDaters) tells us: do not
pooh-pooh, out of hand, things which seem weird or strange, or
even ridiculous, because we have no real idea of what reality,
the REAL reality, consists.

The nuts-and-bolts guys (Richard Hall, Kyle King, maybe even the
great Stan Friedman) want to get their hands on UFOs or what
UFOs seem to be. Their approach is quite worthy, and I subscribe
to the effort.

Yet, there are other phenomena which attends to the UFO mystery,
and those should not be overlooked in a zeal to exclude things
which appear irrational.

The incredible Carl Jung postulated other realities, and there
is an implication from Jesus/Christ that there are other
realities also: In my Father's house are many mansions....

So, I'm hoping that all views, the uncertainty principle of
quantum guiding thought and input here, continue to flow
forth...from which truth or secular revelation might
emerge....and the UFO mystery solved once and for all.

(The above was my Sunday, pre-Thanksgiving "sermon" -- sorry.)


Rich Reynolds







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   Nov > Nov 22

                          Secrecy News -- 11/21/04

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 12:29:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:35:39 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 11/21/04


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 103
November 21, 2004


**      NEW FALLUJAH IMAGERY
**      MORE ON NGA WITHDRAWALS FROM THE PUBLIC DOMAIN
**      SOME NEW CRS PRODUCTS
**      BELGRADE UNDERGROUND


NEW FALLUJAH IMAGERY

Although the government has sought to discourage distribution of
one year-old satellite imagery of the Iraqi city of Fallujah
because it is marked "limited distribution" (Secrecy News,
11/17/04), comparable or superior imagery from one week ago is
available to the public without restriction.

Space Imaging's IKONOS satellite acquired imagery of Fallujah on
November 14. One of the images, showing the southern section of
the city, is posted here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/fallujah.html

"I noticed some destroyed buildings, very little traffic except
for a US military convoy," one analyst said of the latest image.
"I also could see how difficult it must have been to go 'house
to house' in this maze of a town."


MORE ON NGA WITHDRAWALS FROM THE PUBLIC DOMAIN

The announcement by the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency
(NGA) last week that it will withdraw various categories of
information from the public domain (SN, 11/18/04) is beginning
to arouse concern from those who rely on government mapping
products.

"This is serious stuff, much moreso than the FOIA imagery
exclusion issues you raised some months ago," writes SN reader
K.

"Map librarians in particular are going to go absolutely
ape[crazy] when they read the fine print that 'ONCs, TPCs, etc.'
[i.e. navigation/planning charts] will be withdrawn from public
sale at FAA. These are basic elements of the international map
coverage held in government depository libraries all over the
country, and even throughout the world."

"Just so you know, the ONCs are 1:1,000,000 scale charts/maps
which are the only cartographic depiction of the entire world in
the English language at this scale. Concretely it is a set of
about 350 charts; there are other digital variants, both raster
and vector, which presumably would also be affected by this
recall. The vector variation of this product is called VMAP-0,
formerly 'Digital Chart of the World' and is the only public-
domain product of its kind covering the whole world.  The other
chart product mentioned, TPCs, is also a global scale product of
1:500,000 scale charts. It's twice as detailed as an ONC, and
therefore there are four times as many sheets (ca. 1200)."

"As much as I hate to admit it, NGA does have at least one
superficially valid argument for doing what it is suggesting--
the idea that their foreign partners are reluctant or refusing
to cooperate in supplying highly copyrighted (but not security-
restricted) data. It's true, and I could cite you a hundred
concrete examples."

"But there are alternative responses to the heavy-handed total
withdrawal from public access."

"As for their other cited reasons -- 'protecting their data
integrity' (as if someone is going to hack the NGA server and
mess with their map data) or even more dubiously, the veiled
'GWOT' [global war on terrorism] defense ('preventing unfettered
access to air facility data by those intending harm to the
United States') -- they are very troubling."

"If they really believe it, then the second Bush administration
needs to close down all our country's map libraries and shut
down the Internet."

For now, some of the unclassified NGA products that are to be
withdrawn from public access remain available from commercial
vendors such as East View Cartographic (click on "American
Military Mapping"):

http://www.cartographic.com/products/topographic/overview.asp


SOME NEW CRS PRODUCTS

War Powers Resolution: Presidential Compliance, updated November
15, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/man/crs/IB81050.html

U.S. Military Overseas Basing: Background and Oversight Issues
for Congress, November 17, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/man/crs/RS21975.pdf

Nuclear Weapons: Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty, updated November
8, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/crs/IB92099.pdf

Sudan: The Darfur Crisis and the Status of the North-South
Negotiations, October 22, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/man/crs/RL32643.pdf

Central Asia: Regional Developments and Implications for U.S.
Interests (PDF), updated November 12, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/man/crs/IB93108.pdf


BELGRADE UNDERGROUND

The existence of a huge secret underground complex in the
Serbian capital of Belgrade was disclosed earlier this month
following an investigation into the deaths of two soldiers who
were guarding its entrance.

More like a city than a mere bunker, the structure was reported
to occupy six levels over two square miles. It was built in the
1960s as a military shelter for Yugoslav officials.

See "Labyrinth City Under Dedinje" from the Belgrade newspaper
Vecernje Novosti, November 13, 2004 (translated by FBIS):

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/serbia/belgrade.html


_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

Secrecy News has an RSS feed at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood.nul
voice: (202) 454-4691






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   Nov > Nov 22

                     Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 18:17:52 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:38:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Rimmer


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 21:33:59 +0000
>Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft?

>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 19:20:08 -0000
>>Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft?

>>If you just take the raw data, i.e. the available UFO narratives
>>about alleged encounters with ETs, then you will find that many
>>of them are accounts of people being invited on board the craft
>>rather than being abducted. Timothy Good has compiled a
>>fascinating collection of such narratives in his book "Alien
>>Base" (Century, London, 1998).

>>It is only by arbitrarily rejecting such stories and accepting
>>only "abduction" reports that you can arrive at the 99% figure.

>Once again, you should read The UFO Evidence Vol. II before you
>spout off about what raw (or other) data I have arbitrarily or
>critically accepted or ignored. Timothy Good's `fascinating
>narratives' notwithstanding, I engage in investigation and
>analysis, not folklore or story telling. Tim Good, from my own
>direct knowledge, accepts stories as valid from some pretty
>shaky witnesses whom I happen to know soemthing about.

>Presumably you are referring to so-called contactee stories. I
>have in the past investigated dozens of those. How many have you
>investigated? There are damn few (if any) credible polite
>invitation stories. There are hundreds of credible abduction
>stories. Witness credibility matters. There is a big difference
>between raw data and investigated data.

Amazingly, John Harney and I have investigated a contactee
claim, that of Jim Cook, in Runcorn, England. I have also spoken
to a number of abductees, including one of the individuals
involved in the Aveley abduction case, in east London.

Both people seemed to have been equally convinced about the
reality of their claims, and I found neither one more or less
convincing than the other.

The simple statement "There are hundreds of credible abduction
stories" sounds like research by proclamation to me. Are
witnesses only to be considered credible if they have been given
the imprimatur of one of the official Abductionfinders General?

It is convenient for ufologists to attempt to re-write history
in order to bolster their pet 'scientific' ETH theories, but an
actual re-reading of history demonstrates that there is far less
of a distinction between 'abductees' and 'contactees' many
ufologists pretend.


John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of
its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to
live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies.
The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may
at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own
good will torment us without end for they do so with the
approval of their own conscience."  --C.S.Lewis.







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   Nov > Nov 22

                  Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base?

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 14:31:16 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:53:31 -0500
Subject: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base?


Official Proof of Moon UFO Mystery...Base? So close to home?

As most on this List are aware, my interests in this genre don't
extend to Alien artifacts on the Moon or Mars, but this is a
moon shot that is purported to be one of many recently released
by NASA and gives the impression of two large towers. I've not
seen any discussion of this on the Lists, but I may have simply
missed it. While there is an impression of depth, I'm not sure
if what is seen is actually light and shadow playing tricks on
the eye. Comments would be of interest.

One link shows two pictures and highlights the area in question:

http://pnahay.home.sprynet.com/ufo/nasaMoonPhotos.htm

Another shows the image on NASA s web site, without the
references to alleged towers:

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/SP-362/hrp78.jpg

NASA moon probe captures a mystery

I'm not an optical expert, so I m not able to make definitive
claims regarding these images, and they are indeed interesting
(just as the Tubes on Mars were).

Any comments would be of interest.


Steve






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                         Re: Ithaca NY UFOs - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 16:44:53 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:48:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Ithaca NY UFOs - Hatch


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 14:21:14 EST
>Subject: Re: Ithaca NY UFOs - Sparks

>>From: Robert Barrow <robertbarrow.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 19:42:13 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Ithaca NY UFOs

><snip>

>>I asked Capt. Todd, during a phone conversation in which he
>>was quite emotional and disturbed, what in the world was wrong.
>>"Trouble." he replied. "Wright-Patterson found out that (the
>>civilian investigators) were screaming about our investigation
>>in Newfield." So what, I wondered? "That's the problem," Todd
>>returned. "Wright-Patt called me and wanted to know why I was
>>down there."

>>"Didn't they know why?" I asked, now totally confused.

>>"I told them I was ordered to go," he shot back.

>>"I thought _they_ - Blue Book - ordered you to go,"
>>I countered!

<snip>

>Most likely the Lt. was with AFOSI, which has apparently
>been tasked to monitor and disrupt UFO groups and
>investigators on a low priority low-scale basis, on the
>grounds that UFO groups interfere with the AF's mission
>and are a potentially subversive national security threat.
>Notice that this contact between you and the Lt. cost
>nothing, just a few hours of time spread over a
>few months. This is how AFOSI typically develops 'contacts'
>for counterintelligence, it's no different with UFO-related
>contacts.

>AFOSI does not answer to Wright-Pat (nor to Blue Book)
>and is not bound by usual rules of communication through
>chain of command.

>The Newfield, NY, case, main sighting Oct. 24, 1967, is
>in the Condon Report anonymously as Case 38, and mentions
>two locals who hyped up claims of "800 sightings" and
>managed to arrange a press conference with Hynek, two AF
>reps and 4 reporters.


Hello Brad:

Nice catch, and observations.

I have Newfield,NY 1967 listed as:

#8682: 1967/10/24  21:30h 76:35W-42:21N  NAM USA NYK
NEWFIELD,NY:SCR TILTS:2 SQR WINDOWS/ODD LETTERING:
2 OIDS+INSTRUMENTS:
/r109 p179 [UFOs over the Americas, Lorenzen ]
/r210 The APRO BULLETIN. Year 67 Month 9

So APRO / Lorenzen was all over it.

My concern is whether or not the juicier details (windows,
lettering/insignias, humanoids and instruments) originated with
the hoaxers, or were reported independently of them.

In those days I take it, APRO was seen as somewhat incautious by
the more conservative NICAP and others.

Publishing details for /r109 and /r210 are on this page by
number:

http://www.larryhatch.net/USOURCE.html


Best

- Larry








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   Nov > Nov 22

                    Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 22:58:23 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:50:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Maccabee


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 07:19:56 -0800
>Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft?

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:13:01 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft?

<snip>

>>I think the first thing that needs to be said on this thread is
>>that, according to my extensive research and that of others, you
>>are not normally 'invited'. You are taken whether you like it or
>>not

<snip>

>>My research causes me to conclude that if I ever encountered a
>>landed UFO-craft at close range, I would - in the language of
>>American Civil War soldiers - skedaddle.

>I agree there are few (any?) credible cases of people being
>invited on board voluntarily.

>Given that entirely unlikely option, I would just be torn in
>half. I would have to ask questions first:

>* Will I be returned promptly and safely?
>* Is it OK to smoke inside?
*> Can I have take some unobtainium souvenirs?
>* Can I use the john? [burp]

True, alien abduction could be dangerous as well as... well,
scary.

But if I had to choose beween alien abductors and human
abductors (especially those with a guillotine fetish), I'd
probably choose the aliens.






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                    Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 22:58:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:52:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Maccabee


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To:  ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 06:37:15 -0800
>Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft?

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 00:27:38 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft?

>>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 05:13:11 EST
>>Subject: Board An 'Alien' Craft?

>>>Well, if you got the invitation to board an alien craft,
>>>would you?

<snip>

>>Sure, well... maybe, if they promised to give me a nice, solid, >
>>safe, unearthly momento of my visit (a chunk of unknownium, for
>>example); not just a lousy "I visited the Twilight Zone" T shirt

>Hi Bruce:

>Even if they gave you a tee-shirt, there's a 50-50 chance they
>would put it on you backwards.

Yes, wuld be amusing but not "probative evidence." Now, on the
other hand, if the T shirt has threads of of Unobtainium woven
into the matrix... or if, while wearing the T-shirt I could walk
through walls......

Then I'd take the shirt!







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   Nov > Nov 22

               Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base? -

From: Diana Cammack <cammack.nul>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 14:58:09 +0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:54:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base? -


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 14:31:16 -0500
>Subject: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base?

>Official Proof of Moon UFO Mystery...Base? So close to home?

<snip>

>I've not seen any discussion of this on the Lists, but I may have simply
>missed it. While there is an impression of depth, I'm not sure
>if what is seen is actually light and shadow playing tricks on
>the eye. Comments would be of interest.

>One link shows two pictures and highlights the area in question:

>http://pnahay.home.sprynet.com/ufo/nasaMoonPhotos.htm

>Another shows the image on NASA s web site, without the
>references to alleged towers:

>http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/SP-362/hrp78.jpg

<snip>

>Any comments would be of interest.


Where are the shadows, if these are actually rooted in the
ground? shouldn't the shadows be on the same side as those
shadows on the craters? Could the 'towers' be attached to the
photo-instrument instead, a protrusion(s) near the camera lens
that is sticking into the side(s) of the photo(s)?


Diana
Cape Town







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                    Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:38:39 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:57:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Lehmberg


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 18:17:52 +0000
>Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft?

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 21:33:59 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft?

>>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 19:20:08 -0000
>>>Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft?

>>>If you just take the raw data, i.e. the available UFO narratives
>>>about alleged encounters with ETs, then you will find that many
>>>of them are accounts of people being invited on board the craft
>>>rather than being abducted. Timothy Good has compiled a
>>>fascinating collection of such narratives in his book "Alien
>>>Base" (Century, London, 1998).

>>>It is only by arbitrarily rejecting such stories and accepting
>>>only "abduction" reports that you can arrive at the 99% figure.

>>Once again, you should read The UFO Evidence Vol. II before you
>>spout off about what raw (or other) data I have arbitrarily or
>>critically accepted or ignored. Timothy Good's `fascinating
>>narratives' notwithstanding, I engage in investigation and
>>analysis, not folklore or story telling. Tim Good, from my own
>>direct knowledge, accepts stories as valid from some pretty
>>shaky witnesses whom I happen to know soemthing about.

>>Presumably you are referring to so-called contactee stories. I
>>have in the past investigated dozens of those. How many have you
>>investigated? There are damn few (if any) credible polite
>>invitation stories. There are hundreds of credible abduction
>>stories. Witness credibility matters. There is a big difference
>>between raw data and investigated data.

>Amazingly, John Harney and I have investigated a contactee
>claim, that of Jim Cook, in Runcorn, England. I have also spoken
>to a number of abductees, including one of the individuals
>involved in the Aveley abduction case, in east London.

With all inappropriate filters removed and mind wide open,
interested only in the perceivable truth of the matter while
grinding no canted axes, I'm sure.

>Both people seemed to have been equally convinced about the
>reality of their claims, and I found neither one more or less
>convincing than the other.

Which really says nothing at all, on balance, and could even
be interpreted to say that your 'exhaustive' investigations into
this area, such as they are, have not discounted their verity.

>The simple statement "There are hundreds of credible abduction
>stories" sounds like research by proclamation to me.

No Sir. It is a proclamation made as a result of research. I'm
not surprised you don't (...can't, won't...) see the difference.

>Are witnesses only to be considered credible if they have been
>given the imprimatur of one of the official Abductionfinders
>General?

This insentient statement is as ironic as it is insulting given
your penchant for 'klasskurtzian' imprimatur from the other side
of the aisle.

>It is convenient for ufologists to attempt to re-write history
>in order to bolster their pet 'scientific' ETH theories,

Now we must pause for astonished guffaws, Sir, when we remember
how readily _you're_ lot would re-write the histories of
Roswell, Rendelsham, Trindade... et al, to facilitate _their_
pet theories. Verily, the irony breaker fuses in its box! <LOL>

>but an
>actual re-reading of history demonstrates that there is far less
>of a distinction between 'abductees' and 'contactees' many
>ufologists pretend.

Finishing with a statement as empty as the statements
preceding it. But consider, there may be more to be said in the
affirmative with regard to your alleged "lack of distinction"...
than your dodgy programming would allow, Mr. Rimmer. I suspect
it runs counter to your personal philosophy, retirement
portfolio, smirking hubris, and reflex arrogance... but it's a
bullet you're going to have to bite down on, I suspect, sooner
rather than later.

I promise not to say I told you so. We'll be too busy.

Contactees and other "Guys Named George" notwithstanding, it
_may_ be that... given the chance for a grain of 'some' truth at
the core of the contactee myth (fueling it), the credibility of
the contactee _might_ be 'elevated' by association with the
abductee instead of the way _you'd_ have it in the preceding:
the abductee 'tarnished' as a result of his association with the
contactee.

Forgetting for a moment my own biases (already compensated for,
thanks) yours carry neon signs, Sir, when they're not cloaked
and camouflaged with baiting sarcasm, too clever literacy, and
nuanced innuendo.


Have a good week.

alienview.nul -:=A6:-
  www.AlienView.net







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               Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base? -

From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 13:57:02 -0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 15:56:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base? -


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 14:31:16 -0500
>Subject: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base?

>Official Proof of Moon UFO Mystery...Base? So close to home?

>As most on this List are aware, my interests in this genre don't
>extend to Alien artifacts on the Moon or Mars, but this is a
>moon shot that is purported to be one of many recently released
>by NASA and gives the impression of two large towers. I've not
>seen any discussion of this on the Lists, but I may have simply
>missed it. While there is an impression of depth, I'm not sure
>if what is seen is actually light and shadow playing tricks on
>the eye. Comments would be of interest.

>One link shows two pictures and highlights the area in
question:

>http://pnahay.home.sprynet.com/ufo/nasaMoonPhotos.htm

>Another shows the image on NASA s web site, without the
>references to alleged towers:

>http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/SP-362/hrp78.jpg

>NASA moon probe captures a mystery

>I'm not an optical expert, so I m not able to make definitive
>claims regarding these images, and they are indeed interesting
>(just as the Tubes on Mars were).

>Any comments would be of interest.

Steven

These are clearly antennna-like foreground structures protruding
from whatever satellite platform is carrying the camera. In each
case the "tower" extends out of the frame, including the one
which appears in the centre of the image because if you look
closely you can see that this image is a mosaic of two prints.


Martin Shough








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             Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base? - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:08:32 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 15:58:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base? - King


>From: Diana Cammack <cammack.nul>
>To: <UFOUpdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 14:58:09 +0200
>Subject: Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base?

>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 14:31:16 -0500
>>Subject: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base?

>>Official Proof of Moon UFO Mystery...Base? So close to home?

><snip>

>>I've not seen any discussion of this on the Lists, but I may
>>have simply missed it. While there is an impression of depth,
>>I'm not sure if what is seen is actually light and shadow
>>playing tricks on the eye. Comments would be of interest.

>>One link shows two pictures and highlights the area in question:

>>http://pnahay.home.sprynet.com/ufo/nasaMoonPhotos.htm

>>Another shows the image on NASA s web site, without the
>>references to alleged towers:

>>http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/SP-362/hrp78.jpg

><snip>

>>Any comments would be of interest.

>Where are the shadows, if these are actually rooted in the
>ground? shouldn't the shadows be on the same side as those
>shadows on the craters? Could the 'towers' be attached to the
>photo-instrument instead, a protrusion(s) near the camera lens
>that is sticking into the side(s) of the photo(s)?


Hi Diana, and Steve,

Diana I think you've hit it. The artifacts are lit incorrectly
to be located on the moon surface, and since they both appear in
the same location in the mosaic images (coming from the extreme
right- side edge, the case for something protruding into the
camera field of view is strong indeed.

Steve, the image is very unusual, but the coincidence of finding
two separate artifacts that just happen to line up with the same
edge of the camera frame is pretty far-fetched.

On first glance, extraordinary... on second glance, annoying,
like the errant camera strap, botching an otherwise nice shot.


Best Regards,

Kyle






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                               Their Lid Is On

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:58:23 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 16:00:50 -0500
Subject: Their Lid Is On


Their Lid Is On
Alfred Lehmberg

Admitting I'm no prophet, or that brilliance isn't mine, I have
few facts, and I'm re-miss in knowledge I should find. Smarter
motes then me abound, as thick as fleas or flies, and battles
with their *facts* could leave me hammered in their eyes. But
then _they_ make assumptions so their 'blacks' and 'whites' make
sense, and their arguments get heavy, are encumbered - much
entrenched. And loath to leave the prominence that has framed
their 'reputation', they make prevarication or some senseless
refutation!

And then we have them where we've _found_ them, and we see their
posits smell. They stumble in their pitch black rooms; they're
ignorant as hell! They're not aware they _won't_ know more, and
treat themselves like Gods, they stand at last, complete ...
revealed (!)... as undisputed knobs.

They'd say "not so," but they're not looking! Their eyes are on
the ground! They cling to their mean insular; they push away
profound! They're satisfied with white bread, though it rots
them from within - they are trembling in their countenance...
uneasy in their skins.

They say their 'beads' incessantly in a litany construed to take
themselves from that which makes the hell they put us through.
So, pummeled by their nameless fear they wallow shameful
ethics... _made_ by them to hide their fear - destroying our
aesthetics! Cut and slash, they cling to hope (or faith which
was untested). Their arguments miasma, discredited and detested.
Confusions in their world view are the nightmares in our dreams;
we look around and see the mess - perceive _we're_ not so clean.
Their wounds now ooze an ichor 'cause they claim the wound's not
there, and will never let clean air to them, or let them heal
fair. Shambling in our cyberspace like zombies, living dead;
still they wish, exclusively, their dullest, whitest bread!

The lid is on, on God knows what! Can't they feel it pressing
down? Our spirit soars for reach and grasp, but we're mired to
the ground! We fight old wars that long ago misplaced some right
or wrong, and they elbow for position as they sing their
'righteous' song.

The lid is on, on god knows what! You can hear it in the air;
the whispers that there's life on Mars... a type that's
undeclared! Our permeated media is filled up to the _brim_ with
alien abductions, UFOs, and black clad men!

The lid is on, on god knows what! It's in the _planes_ we build.
Aurora just the tip of monstrous icebergs crammed, and filled!
What's the Hubble really seen? What HAS it found out there, and
why are _we_ , then, kept from truth, extant but undeclared?

The lid is on, ON god knows what. They keep up your
distractions. All evidence inconclusive, even _ours_ with their
detractions. Randi said, ironically, "[There are those one
shan't convince with a _monumental_ evidence that is rich, and
full, and dense. A believer's a believer and will _not_ relate
to facts that are counter to a fond belief - they're settled on
that track.]" I cover tiny smiles with the fingers of one hand,
thinking, that's an _apt_ description of the skepti-bunky's
stand!

It just may be... assumptions... made by _them_ are _so_
invalid. Assuming *They're* forthcoming? Then be disappointed,
Alice. Assume the 'News' plays heads up ball, and check into a
_home_, dementia's _consumed_ you, and you're senile to the
bone. Assume that your 'Religion' has your interests at its
heart, and be doomed to disappointment as you play your backward
part. Assume an honest 'Government', or an efficacious 'School',
and become the spineless charlatan, hapless loser, or a fool!


alienview.nul -:=A6:-
  www.AlienView.net







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                      Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Smith

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 10:33:40 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 16:02:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Smith


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:17:03 -0600
>Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft?

>And as James Smith has so vociferously pointed out, even if the
>ETs wanted to do so, those in power would immediately take steps
>to stop it or, if unsuccessful, produce reams of evidence to
>prove that it was an elaborate hoax.

Okay, now you have invoked my name on a topic I had hoped to let
pass by.

1) If you got anything useful (gizmos or materials), then of
course the government will "impound" them. It may be of use to
them to improve national security by understanding the
devices/materials to hopefully be able to build defenses against
the alien tech. Ideally, they could develop their own tech using
the alien tech, but thats too far out to hope for. Second,
national security would be helped by preventing definitive
evidence from being given to the public about alien existence,
since we have no defense against them, thus preventing likely
public panic.

If you just have the testimony of people or even videos
pictures, then those are easily discredited/faked/ignored.

2) Although all the nice extras you ask for are very agreeable,
its kind of unlikely. I mean I could ask for a billion dollars!
Face it, the abductors aren't going to do anything based on your
desires. In fact, they are going to do such horrendous things to
you that they have to black out your memories.

So what you must ask is simply, do you want to be put on the
abductee candidate list or not.

The pros to be an abductee are:

a) the minor possiblity (they might just erase all your
memories) of knowing for a fact that there are aliens and non-
Earth spacecraft buzzing around, justifying all of our seemingly
pointless effort on the topic.

b) you might get some useful artifact (highly unlikely) which
you might be able to keep if you don't tell anyone about it.

c) if you are exceedingly clever, you might get enough data to
prove to people that the event really happened (before you are
discredited by the powers that be).

The negatives to being abducted seem numerous.

a)You may have your memories wiped so well that at best it will
all seem like a dream (hardly satisfying).

b)You may have implants or other "treatments" that may cause
future (physically related) pain, illness, early death (any
healings reported or improved quality of life? No, none come to
mind).

c)The screwed up effects on the mind may cause mental problems,
suicide, divorce, depression, psychosomatic illnesses.

d) The exposure to alien bacteria/viruses may cause
unpleasant,unknown side effects.

e) If you do remember anything and say anything, you make your
self a target for the public/government.

f) You cannot lead a normal life.

g) You end up being monitored and targetted by the aliens for
the rest of your life. Even your offspring may be affected by
your choice since the abductors seem to be interested in multi-
 generational studies. The sins of the parents fall on the
children.

h) If you willingly go to them, you are aiding and abetting
criminals and invaders.

i) If you go willingly, you are violating US law.

j) If they do take your cells and clone them, you have ethical
problems of somehow being responsible for/tied to the clones.
This is almost a mental effect, but it seems alot more. The same
goes for any use of cells for reproduction. If you CHOOSE to
reproduce with the aliens, then that is not AS bad, although it
still seems wrong ethically to support this activity.

So after weighing the good and bad, although it is really
tempting to really know that alien UFOs exist since our current
reality is so boringly prosaic, I think it too risky and
dangerous to be abducted. Might as well jump out of an airplane
in the middle of the Pacific.








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   Nov > Nov 22

                          Re: Gemini 11 UFO - Smith

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 10:40:53 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 16:03:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Gemini 11 UFO - Smith


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:12:58 EST
>Subject: Re: Gemini 11 UFO?

>I've already explained the GT-11 case a frw years back after
>having listed it as an Unknown for many years. Can't go into it
>right now.

I understand that you found some other satellite/orbital debris
that matched the GT-11 observation. What object was it?







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   Nov > Nov 22

                 Observations Of Apparent Exotic Propulsion

From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22.nul>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:46:49 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 16:06:20 -0500
Subject: Observations Of Apparent Exotic Propulsion


Interesting paper passed on from 'stealthskater'...

Physicist Ed Halerewicz, Jr. wrote an article for, The Journal
Of Advanced Propulsion Methods, where he investigated the popular
notions of propulsion for the Flying-Triangle/Black-Triangle craft.

It should be directly accessible at:

http://tprints.ecs.soton.ac.uk/38/01/The_Triiangular_Craft_Issue.pdf

If not, go to:

http://www.joatp.org/

Click> on "Volume 5", then on Observations Of Apparent Exotic
Propulsion Technologies From Hectometer Sized Deltoid Aerial
Craft.








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   Nov > Nov 22

                   APS Beats Up Bush's Moon-Mars Missions

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 10:48:24 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 16:08:13 -0500
Subject: APS Beats Up Bush's Moon-Mars Missions


American Physical Society Beats Up Bush's Moon-Mars Missions

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4181187&sourceCode=RSS

NPR reports on this with audio clip.


Best,

Greg







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                 New Evidence For Localized Methane On Mars

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 10:55:28 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 16:09:04 -0500
Subject: New Evidence For Localized Methane On Mars


http://www.rednova.com/news/display/?id=105136

Story focuses on two Earth based, ground based observations of
the Red Planet. Of note is the evidence of localized underground
sources of methane and water vapor.


Best,

Greg







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               Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base? -

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 12:37:37 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 16:10:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base? -


UFO UpDates - Toronto wrote:

>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 14:31:16 -0500
>Subject: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base?

>Official Proof of Moon UFO Mystery...Base? So close to home?

<snip>

>One link shows two pictures and highlights the area in question:

>http://pnahay.home.sprynet.com/ufo/nasaMoonPhotos.htm

>Another shows the image on NASA s web site, without the
>references to alleged towers:

>http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/SP-362/hrp78.jpg

>NASA moon probe captures a mystery


Hi Steve,

Interesting, but they don't appear to cast shadows.

Don Ledger








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                  Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 11:09:16 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 16:12:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - King


>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 12:35:13 -0500
>Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI

<snip>

>So, I'm hoping that all views, the uncertainty principle of
>quantum guiding thought and input here, continue to flow
>forth...from which truth or secular revelation might
>emerge....and the UFO mystery solved once and for all.

>(The above was my Sunday, pre-Thanksgiving "sermon" -- sorry.)


Hi Rich,

Your comments are a welcome and much needed respite.
*Can't we all just get along*.

The inclusion of Bible verse is a very apt segway from the 'nuts
& bolts' position to the more spiritual or ethereal stance.

I keep stumbling over this weird deal about Ufology and religion
anyway, and your post brings it to light at a good time perhaps.

I am interested in UFOs because I really believe that there are
other intelligent beings in this great cosmos. If I believe
that, I think I have to accept the possibility that some might
stumble across us if they travel in space. When I think about
it, it's really a religious concept... we are not alone, we are
_or can be_ observed, there is a reason to exist (find those
other intelligent beings), the answer lies in the heavens. While
I don't feel religious per se about the field, I am forced to
realize that it is very near the same as believing that some
other intelligence created all I see and all that ever was
before, and all that ever will be forever. The respective logic
of it all seems irrelevant. I have no true logical basis on
which to rest my interest in UFOs. I've never seen one, and
there isn't one anywhere where I am able to touch one. There are
so many different descriptions of the craft, and so many
descriptions of the occupants, like denominations in a great
sect, with adherents who bicker and muse amongst themselves, all
trying to ascertain the truth.

The diversity of today's religious faiths is mirrored in
Ufology. We have Christian Science on one end and charismatic
evangelicals on the other. We have faiths that agree on 99% of
their beliefs, and wage war for the 1% disagreement. The
parallels are clear.

While I don't advocate or possess the brand of open-mindedness
that can accept any theory at all simply because it is possible,
I can engage in the debate without resorting to ridicule. I can
accept the existence of alternative independent thought, and try
to fully appreciate it.

I don't agree with Seth Shostak that SETI is the best way to
find whomever might be out there, but I fully accept and
appreciate his passion and devotion to the theory, and I excited
that he and his organization has devised a model which allows
anyone with a PC and a web connection to be passively engaged in
the hunt without a second thought. SETI has legitimized the idea
that lots of money, time and effort is being spent on this, and
it is ok. They have no more concrete proof than any in Ufology.
But they have a theory and they can apply science to their
theory, and they are doing it right now. Whether you agree with
them or not, you must see a lesson in there.

We are not what SETI is. Ufology requires something very like
faith. The science of it has yet to be fully realized or
applied.

Amongst the nuts and bolts, sea captains, noisy negativists and
Klasskurtzians, we may celebrate the diversity, and disagree
without invective. We may ridicule evidence without ridiculing
the presenter. Inform rather than deconstruct, as it were.

Indeed, to make this a place to which the many might fear to
tread, we should be building many mansions, and making a place
for them all.

Excellent post, Rich, and best of Thanksgiving blessings to you
all.


Kyle







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               Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base? -

From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 12:16:43 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 16:14:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base? -


>From: Diana Cammack <cammack.nul>
>To: <UFOUpdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 14:58:09 +0200
>Subject: Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base?

>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 14:31:16 -0500
>>Subject: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base?

>>Official Proof of Moon UFO Mystery...Base? So close to home?

><snip>

>>I've not seen any discussion of this on the Lists, but I may
>>have simply missed it. While there is an impression of depth,
>>I'm not sure if what is seen is actually light and shadow
>>playing tricks on the eye. Comments would be of interest.

>>One link shows two pictures and highlights the area in question:

>>http://pnahay.home.sprynet.com/ufo/nasaMoonPhotos.htm

>>Another shows the image on NASA s web site, without the
>>references to alleged towers:

>>http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/SP-362/hrp78.jpg

><snip>

>>Any comments would be of interest.

>Where are the shadows, if these are actually rooted in the
>ground? shouldn't the shadows be on the same side as those
>shadows on the craters? Could the 'towers' be attached to the
>photo-instrument instead, a protrusion(s) near the camera lens
>that is sticking into the side(s) of the photo(s)?

Hi Steven!

I agree with Diana that these alleged massive "towers" on the
Moon are actually protrusions of a boom-like structure (with a
helical cable around it) on the spacecraft itself.

Note that this identical boom-like structure appears in the
middle right part of the two pictures which were joined together
to produce the single image in your second URL.

An examination of other images in these same regions on the Moon
taken by different spacecraft do not show these massive "towers"
which would easily be visible in small telescopes used by
amateur astronomers who have observed the Moon for many years
before the start of the space age and would have reported them.

That said, there are plenty of other images, usually of much
smaller objects or transient phenomena on the Moon, that when
taken together with its many unique and unexpected physical and
chemical properties discovered during the Apollo era over three
decades ago presents a strong case, although not yet proven,
that our closest neighbour in space is a camouflaged ET
spacecraft or a modified natural world that was once used as a
base by ETs.

Check out NASA's lunar documents and scientific publications
(many of these are summarized in Don Wilson's well researched
book 'Secrets of Our Spaceship Moon') for much more compelling
evidence of possible ET activity on the Moon. Other "expert"
testimonies of artificial structures on the Moon found in Steven
Greer's book 'Disclosure' contain many misleading and
conflicting statements and thus provides a far less compelling
case for past or present ET activity on the Moon.


Nick Balaskas








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               Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Dickenson

From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 17:18:46 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 16:17:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI - Dickenson


>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 12:35:13 -0500
>Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 08:20:55 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Seth Shostak Talks ET And SETI

>>"Quantum particles" are subunits of matter or energy which obey
>>the rules of quantum mechanics.

>>The rules of quantum mechanics are embodied in equations which
>>allow one to calculate probable values of various observable
>>qualities (location, speed/momentum, energy) of the particles.

>The incredible Carl Jung postulated other realities, ...

>So, I'm hoping that all views, the uncertainty principle of
>quantum guiding thought and input here, continue to flow
>forth...from which truth or secular revelation might
>emerge....and the UFO mystery solved once and for all.

Hi Rich, Bruce & all

"The spacetime continuum may be considered as contrary to nature
in view of the molecular structure of everything which happens on
a small scale ... Perhaps the success of the Heisenberg method
[QM] points to a purely algebraic method of description of
nature, that is to the elimination of continuous functions from
physics ... At the present time however, such a program looks
like an attempt to breathe in empty space." Einstein quoted by
Lee Smolin and

"All these fifty years of conscious brooding have brought me no
nearer to the answer to the question, 'What are light quanta?'
Nowadays every Tom, Dick and Harry thinks he knows it, but he is
mistaken."  Einstein quoted by Lee Smolin

from Smolin -

"Of course, what is both wonderful and terrifying is that there
is absolutely no reason that nature at its deepest level must
have anything to do with mathematics. Like mathematics itself,
the faith in this shared mysticism of the mathematical scientist
is an invention of human beings... I have never heard a good a
priori argument that the world must be organized according to
mathematical principles." -- Lee Smolin in The Life Of The
Cosmos

So it would appear that QM "rules" aren't necessarily a true
description of nature (physics). Like other 'accepted' rules
before them, they're merely a "guess" that happens to work out -
after a whole lot of fiddling in last sixty or so years - to be
fairly accurate (statistically) - just now.

Such "rules" can only predict - they can't forbid.


Cheers

Ray D

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Perceptions" http://www.perceptions.couk.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






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                            Re: Shostack - Allan

From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 19:41:31 -0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 16:24:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Shostack - Allan


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 15:38:12 -0500
>Subject: Re: Shostack

>>From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 07:29:30 -0500
>>Subject: Shostack

><snip>

>>2. SETI has no evidence that aliens are sending signals,

>I've seen and heard about enough government crimes in my short
>63 years to put _zero_ faith in reports that SETI hasn't picked
>up any alien signals yet. It may be true, but there is an equal
>chance they _have_ and haven't told the public about such finds
>yet. SETI-at-Home? Could be they only post data they know is
>'clean'.

Are you saying that not only does the US government suppress
info on crashed saucers, but that it has evidence of alien
signals via SETI and is keeping this evidence under wraps?

Also, are other governments doing this or are you limiting
yourself to the US (and maybe assuming that no other country
possesses the knowhow to partake in SETI).


CDA






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                 Enthusiasts Founded Center To Find Answers

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:04:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:04:34 -0500
Subject: Enthusiasts Founded Center To Find Answers




Source: The Daily Nebraskan - Lincoln, Nebraska

http://www.dailynebraskan.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2004/11/18/419c668554214

11-18-04


Enthusiasts Founded Center To Find Answers

By Billy Defrain


They met where they could. At coffee shops, pizza parlor
basements and eventually a conference center.

They shared their research on paranormal phenomenon both in
Lincoln and abroad.

UFO sightings. Spontaneous human combustion. Bigfoot.

But it=92s been nearly 10 years since the Lincoln-based Fortean
Research Center has done any research.

Its founders and prominent members have found other callings,
other research and the responsibilities of family life.

But they still believe. They still search for the truth.

***

Before the fictional Fox Mulder investigated the unexplainable
on "The X-files," Charles Fort investigated the same strange
phenomenon in reality.

Born in Albany, N.Y., in 1874, Charles Fort was editing a Long
Island newspaper by age 19 and quit shortly after to hitchhike
around the world, eventually returning to New York and making
ends meet by freelancing with newspapers and writing 10 novels,
all of which he ended up burning for fuel.

After befriending magazine editor Theodore Dreiser, Fort=92s
interest in the paranormal was sparked. Dreiser encouraged Fort
to begin compiling strange events into a book. In 1916, Fort
received a small inheritance following an uncle=92s death, which
allowed him to delve full-fledged into his research.

The culmination of that research was four books. "Book of the
Damned" (1919) chronicled strange, inexplicable events like
raining frogs. "New Lands" (1923) was a scathing response to the
arrogance of astronomers who were his critics. "Lo!" (1931) told
of claims of teleportation and his research on psychic
abilities, and "Wild Talents," was finished just before his
death in 1932.

The era of Fortean research had begun.

"He was really intrigued by =91damned facts,=92 " said Ray Boeche,
founder and former director of the Fortean Research Center.

"Fort took possibly the best position you could take between
skeptic and advocate=85he looked at himself not as an explainer,
but a chronicler," he said.

***

Boeche founded the center in the early 1980s with Scott Colborn
to investigate similar unexplained phenomenon using Fort=92s
approach. Boeche said the two came together after reading a
column in Lincoln=92s newspaper, which mentioned a motorcycle
crash that happened when the victim ditched his bike when
Bigfoot crossed the highway in front of him.

"I had done a lot of fieldwork investigating the Bigfoot
sightings, cattle mutilations, hauntings," Boeche said. "Once
you stick your toe in the paranormal field, you have a lot of
things running your way =85 you may be the only person someone
with an unusual encounter may know to contact."

But Colborn and Boeche weren=92t the only people with an interest
in unusual encounters in Lincoln. Membership in the non-profit
group swelled, and the Fortean Research Center began publishing
a monthly newsletter of its findings, with documents culled from
government archives and libraries across the country, courtesy
of the Freedom of Information Act.

"Before the Internet kicked into its glory, it was harder to
find info on the UFO phenomenon," Colborn said. "The Fortean
Research Center was designed to research and collect data =85 we
had local groups that would meet and share information."

Colborn said the group met in local coffee houses or rented out
the Valentino=92s basement for its meetings, but increasing
interest in the group merited activities larger in scope. The
Fortean Research Center decided to organize conferences on
paranormal studies, drawing in some of the world=92s foremost
experts.

***

UFO expert Stanton Friedman and spontaneous human combustion
expert Larry Arnold are prominent researchers in their
respective fields.

"I=92m the original civilian investigator in the Roswell
incident," Friedman said from his California hotel room while
traveling from his Canadian home to lecture at a community
college.

"I take a clear-cut, unambiguous stance that some (UFOs) are
intelligently controlled spacecraft," he said.

Friedman spoke at a Fortean Research Center conference in the
late 1980s. The conferences were held in the University of
Nebraska-Lincoln=92s East Campus Clifford Hardin Center for
Continuing Education building.

Friedman earned his bachelor=92s and master=92s degrees in physics
before spending 14 years working on advanced nuclear research
and development. He said his interest in flying saucers first
came in 1958 and his first lecture of the subject was in 1967.

Since then he=92s traveled the United States and the world giving
lectures to colleges and groups much like the Fortean Research
Center.

"We=92re dealing with the most important story of the past
millennium," Friedman said, calling efforts to conceal UFO
evidence a "cosmic Watergate."

"None of the arguments made against UFOs stand up against a lot
of scrutiny," he said.

Friedman said it was likely alien contact would be within our
own galaxy, probably at the Zeta 1 and Zeta 2 Reticuli, two
stars similar to our sun that are 39 light-years from earth and
one eighth of a light-year from each other.

"Those two stars being so close, you have a greater incentive
for interstellar travel," Friedman said. "I presume the aliens
know some things we don=92t know and if they got a head start they
don=92t need a million years."

Friedman also said he admired what Fort had done for his area of
expertise.

"Charles Fort was a leader in collecting stories of the unusual
=85 people are unwilling to do what Fort did," Friedman said.
"You=92ve got to bring an ounce of realism to this whole picture.
I=92m an expert on flying saucers but I=92m open minded enough to
find it fascinating."

Larry Arnold has written the book "Ablaze!" which investigates
the phenomenon of spontaneous human combustion, where human
beings are apparently burned to ash without affecting their
surroundings. Arnold said he spoke about "the fascinating, hotly
debated issue of spontaneous human combustion" at Fortean
Research Center conferences in 1987 and 1991.

"Scott (Colborn) has become a good friend of ours. He=92s a
wonderful scholar and we=92ve appreciated his research over the
years," Arnold said.

Expanding on a childhood interest in UFOs and Bigfoot sightings,
Arnold said spontaneous human combustion =96 or as he calls it,
SHC =96 piqued his interest because of the lack of existing
research into the phenomenon. After spending the =9270s as an
electrical engineer, Arnold spent weeks digging through the
Library of Congress, the archives of the American College of
Physicians archives and the National Institute of Health.

Arnold said that when John Bentley died in his Pennsylvania home
in 1975, his only remains were a pile of ash and one half of his
leg. The incident firmly entrenched Arnold=92s belief in SHC.

"The only damage in the house was the hole that the body bored
through the floor," Arnold said.

Unsatisfied with official explanations of stray cigarette burns,
Arnold began his own research.

He said the mainstream theory explaining SHC is called the
"human wick effect" =96 that the body, once ignited, begins to
burn slowly in a self-contained blaze. Arnold, however, was not
prepared to accept this theory.

"It takes a lot of heat to render to get the body fat to have
its own self-sustaining combustion," he said. "Friends of ours
who barbecue have never walked away from their T-bone and had it
burned to powder =85 if skeptics have to go to such extremes to
dismiss SHC, then there=92s probably something to it."

Arnold has researched nearly 120 different theories explaining
SHC, with explanations ranging from body chemistry gone awry to
a simultaneous discharge of electrical energy in every cell of
the human body.

"There was something that seems to be credible that science was
ignoring," Arnold said.

***

For the Fortean Research Center, membership had grown to 230 by
the late =9280s, partly because of Colborn and Boeche=92s dedication
to research. Boeche said one of his and Colborn=92s major projects
was investigating a 1956 UFO landing at Bentwater Royal Air
Force base in England. Boeche and Colborn tracked down enlisted
men on the base at the time and recorded their recollections of
the incident.

"The deputy base commander described watching the lights, seeing
them through the forest, seeing =85 the trees where the craft had
scraped the trunks, seeing impressions on the gear," Boeche
said. "We were able to gather a lot of info on that and brought
the subject to the attention of (former Nebraska senator) Jim
Exon on the senate intelligence committee."

But much to the disappointment of Boeche and Colborn, no action
or discussion of their research followed.

"It was like everything went into a black hole," Boeche said.

The group=92s own demise can be explained much easier than the
phenomenon they investigated.

"At the time I was involved with the (center) I was the Nebraska
state director of the Mutual UFO Network and the Center for UFO
Studies. I just did not have time to keep things going anymore,"
Boeche said.

Colborn said he left the group in 1992 after the birth of his
first child. Lacking strong leadership and organization after
Colborn=92s departure, the group disbanded.

"It was a neat group and I think back with a lot of fondness,"
Colborn said.

Boeche also reflects positively on the group=92s work.

"It was a lot of fun. We met a lot of interesting people and we
got to poke around in some really interesting situations,"
Boeche said. "As long as you an keep an open mind that these
things are happening and people are experiencing something, the
search for that is a lot of fun."


[UFO UpDates thanks Stuart Miller for the lead]








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   Nov > Nov 23

                     UFO Encounters Possible At Mach 10+

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:08:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:08:44 -0500
Subject: UFO Encounters Possible At Mach 10+




Source: India Daily

http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/11-19g-04.asp

11-19-04

NASA�s "Scramjet" Engine Technology Ready For Mars Mission! UFO
Encounters Possible At Mach 10 And Above!

N.K. Subramanium
Special orrespondent

NASA created history when an unmanned experimental jet broke a
world record for speed on Tuesday, cruising over the Pacific
Ocean at just under 7,000 miles per hour in a NASA test of
cutting-edge "scramjet" engine technology. The Mach 10 above is
the speed at which UFOs move around claims UFO researchers. In
this speed range the space crafts can probably encounter some of
the UFO vehicles.

The X-43A aircraft flew at a speed of around Mach 9.6 -- nearly
ten times the speed of sound -- after a booster rocket took it
to around 110,000 feet and then separated. A modified B-52
airplane had carried the experimental plane and booster aloft.
It was the last of three test launches for the X-43A series and
its supersonic-combustion ramjet or "scramjet" engine. The
scramjet scoops up oxygen from the air rather than carrying
liquid oxygen in a tank like an ordinary rocket. Scramjet
technology, NASA has said, could open the way to cheaper, safer
and faster flights into the upper atmosphere, with smaller and
lighter craft. "I think it's easier than people think it is. We
can really do this stuff. I don''t mean to make it sound too
easy, but it's definitely doable," said Randy Voland, a senior
research engineer on the project, at a news conference after the
test. The eight-year, $230 million program got off to a rough
start in June 2001 when the first X-43A and its booster rocket
had to be destroyed in mid-air. The second attempt, in March of
this year, successfully reached a speed of Mach 7. That Mach 7
flight set the previous world record for a jet-powered vehicle,
NASA said.

The high-risk, high-payoff flight, originally scheduled for Nov.
15, took place in restricted airspace over the Pacific Ocean
northwest of Los Angeles. The flight was the last and fastest of
three unpiloted flight tests in NASA's Hyper-X Program. The
program's purpose is to explore an alternative to rocket power
for space access vehicles.

"This flight is a key milestone and a major step toward the
future possibilities for producing boosters for sending large
and critical payloads into space in a reliable, safe,
inexpensive manner," said NASA Administrator Sean O'Keefe.
"These developments will also help us advance the Vision for
Space Exploration, while helping to advance commercial aviation
technology," Administrator O'Keefe said.

Supersonic combustion ramjets (scramjets) promise more airplane-
like operations for increased affordability, flexibility and
safety in ultra high-speed flights within the atmosphere and for
the first stage to Earth orbit. The scramjet advantage is once
it is accelerated to about Mach 4 by a conventional jet engine
or booster rocket, it can fly at hypersonic speeds, possibly as
fast as Mach 15, without carrying heavy oxygen tanks, as rockets
must.

The design of the engine, which has no moving parts, compresses
the air passing through it, so combustion can occur. Another
advantage is scramjets can be throttled back and flown more like
an airplane, unlike rockets, which tend to produce full thrust
all the time.

"The work of the Langley-Dryden team and our Vehicle Systems
Program has been exceptional," said NASA's Associate
Administrator for Aeronautics Research J. Victor Lebacqz. "This
shows how much we can accomplish when we manage the risk and
work together toward a common goal. NASA has made a tremendous
contribution to the body of knowledge in aeronautics with the
Hyper-X program, as well as making history."

The flight was postponed by one day when repair of an
instrumentation problem with the X-43A caused a delay. When the
preflight checklist was resumed, not enough time remained to
meet the FAA launch deadline of 7 p.m. EST.

Today, the X-43A, attached to its modified Pegasus rocket
booster, took off from Dryden Flight Research Center at Edwards
Air Force Base, Calif., tucked under the wing of the B-52B
launch aircraft. The booster and X-43A were released from the B-
52B at 40,000 feet and the booster's engine ignited, taking the
X-43A to its intended altitude and speed. The X-43A then
separated from the booster and accelerated on scramjet power to
a brief flight at nearly Mach 10.


[UFO UpDates thanks Stuart Miller for the lead]






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   Nov > Nov 23

               Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base? -

From: Joe McGonagle <joe.nul>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 22:13:20 -0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:20:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base? -


>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 14:31:16 -0500
>>Subject: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base?

>>Official Proof of Moon UFO Mystery...Base? So close to home?

<snip>

>Interesting, but they don't appear to cast shadows.

This structure is part of the Cheese delivery system, see my
post about Lunar Cheese production at:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2001/dec/m13-009.shtml

Raw cheese is encapsulated in "shells" manufactured from the
tough surface rind and launched through the tube-like structure
which is perfectly orientated to launch the capsule on a re-
entry path to the South Atlantic.

The spiral structure is part of the mechanism used to raise and
lower the firing tube under the surface in order to hide it's
presence. It is very fortunate that it was captured on these
images, it must have either just launched, or been about to
launch a consignment of capsules.

Note the other inexplicable features in the image at:

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/SP-362/hrp38.jpg

A road can clearly be seen following the left hand side inside
rim of the the cheese quarry. If you look at the pear-shaped
quarry in the lower right of the image, you can see a fainter
track which extends around the outer rim of the upper-right
quadrant of the main cheese quarry. If you examine the small
crater at about 2 O'clock of the main cheese quarry, what looks
like a "blister" is clearly evident in the centre. This is
either pressurised accomodation for the employees, or possibly a
regional CCCC (Cheese Command and Control Centre). If you look
carefully at the image, you will notice a number of other
obviously man-made structures.

The reason why no shadow of the launch tube is evident is that
the shadow is carefully "erased" with the use of light
redirected along the path of the shadow using mirrors.

I would also like to point out that the recent Chinese interest
in the moon, and that of ESA is due mainly to my representations
to them in regard to this illicit industry - what other possible
reason could there be for revisiting the moon? In the knowledge
of imminent exposure, George Bush has declared his intention to
set up a permanent manned station there. This is so that if
these existing installations are prematurely disclosed, he can
say that he authorised early deployment of them in secrecy to
avert a new space-race.


Regards,

Joe









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               Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base? -

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 17:14:13 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:21:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base? -


>From: Diana Cammack <cammack.nul>
>To: <UFOUpdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 14:58:09 +0200
>Subject: Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base?

>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 14:31:16 -0500
>>Subject: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base?

>>Another shows the image on NASA s web site, without the
>>references to alleged towers:
>>http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/SP-362/hrp78.jpg

>Where are the shadows, if these are actually rooted in the
>ground? shouldn't the shadows be on the same side as those
>shadows on the craters? Could the 'towers' be attached to the
>photo-instrument instead, a protrusion(s) near the camera lens
>that is sticking into the side(s) of the photo(s)?

Yes, Diana, you are correct. The device is attached to the
Apollo. It is the gamma ray spectrometer.

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/expmoon/Apollo16/A16metric1580.gif

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/expmoon/Apollo16/A16_Orbital_gamma.html

Most amusing and typical example of today's advanced UFO
research!






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               Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base? -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 16:15:49 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:23:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base? -


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To:  ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 12:37:37 -0400
>Subject: Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base?

>UFO UpDates - Toronto wrote:

>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 14:31:16 -0500
>>Subject: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base?

>>Official Proof of Moon UFO Mystery...Base? So close to home?

><snip>

>>One link shows two pictures and highlights the area in question:

>>http://pnahay.home.sprynet.com/ufo/nasaMoonPhotos.htm

>>Another shows the image on NASA s web site, without the
>>references to alleged towers:

>>http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/SP-362/hrp78.jpg

>>NASA moon probe captures a mystery


>Interesting, but they don't appear to cast shadows.

Speaking of shadows, any speculation on these things? The
graphic with magnifying glass is at the bottom of the page.


http://www.alienview.net/tele9.html

alienview.nul  -:=A6:-
   www.AlienView.net








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             Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base? - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 23:08:27 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:43:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base? - Hall


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To:  ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 12:37:37 -0400
>Subject: Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base?

>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 14:31:16 -0500
>>Subject: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base?

>>Official Proof of Moon UFO Mystery...Base? So close to home?

><snip>

>>One link shows two pictures and highlights the area in question:

>>http://pnahay.home.sprynet.com/ufo/nasaMoonPhotos.htm

>>Another shows the image on NASA s web site, without the
>>references to alleged towers:

>>http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/SP-362/hrp78.jpg

>>NASA moon probe captures a mystery

>Interesting, but they don't appear to cast shadows.


This is as good a place as any to jump in and say how pleased I
am that several regulars have displayed commendable critical
thinking about the "Moon towers" baloney, instead of  slack-
jawed, uncritical belief that it shows evidence of aliens on the
moon.

I let out a silent groan when I first saw my good friend Steve
Kaeser's query about this, because it is indeed an ancient,
long-discredited story. It surfaced in the 1960s when I was at
NICAP, and my friend and colleague Dr. James McDonald checked it
out very carefully through the astronomy and science departments
at the University of Arizona, and after examining an array of
Moon photographs in that area they found serious flaws with it
representing actual strucures. Shadows, angles, etc., all wrong.

I have McDonald's detailed report in the Donald E. Keyhoe
Archives files, but don't have time right now to dig it out or
argue the (lack of) evidence any further.


 - Dick








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                     Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 23:28:05 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:45:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Rimmer


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:38:39 -0600
>Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft?

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 18:17:52 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft?

>>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 21:33:59 +0000
>>>Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft?

>>>Presumably you are referring to so-called contactee stories. I
>>>have in the past investigated dozens of those. How many have you
>>>investigated? There are damn few (if any) credible polite
>>>invitation stories. There are hundreds of credible abduction
>>>stories. Witness credibility matters. There is a big difference
>>>between raw data and investigated data.

>>Amazingly, John Harney and I have investigated a contactee
>>claim, that of Jim Cook, in Runcorn, England. I have also spoken
>>to a number of abductees, including one of the individuals
>>involved in the Aveley abduction case, in east London.

>With all inappropriate filters removed and mind wide open,
>interested only in the perceivable truth of the matter while
>grinding no canted axes, I'm sure.

With appropriate Lehmberg/English translating filters in
position, I shall try to answer this response.

>>Both people seemed to have been equally convinced about the
>>reality of their claims, and I found neither one more or less
>>convincing than the other.

>Which really says nothing at all, on balance, and could even
>be interpreted to say that your 'exhaustive' investigations into
>this area, such as they are, have not discounted their verity.

I never claimed to have 'exhaustively' investigated either the
Jim Cook or the Aveley cases. I was simply giving my impressions
of the people I have spoken to, and the accounts they gave me.

>>The simple statement "There are hundreds of credible abduction
>>stories" sounds like research by proclamation to me.

>No Sir. It is a proclamation made as a result of research. I'm
>not surprised you don't (...can't, won't...) see the difference.

I have certainly not seen 'hundreds' of credible abduction cases
- the point as issue is credible to whom? I have certainly read
of many cases where the experiencer/abductee gives an account
which suggests to me that they are not lying when they report
what they have perceived to be an abduction. But I do not find
these cases to be more or less indicative of an objective event
than the contactee cases.

>>Are witnesses only to be considered credible if they have been
>>given the imprimatur of one of the official Abductionfinders
>>General?

>This insentient statement is as ironic as it is insulting given
>your penchant for 'klasskurtzian' imprimatur from the other side
>of the aisle.

I would be interested if Mr Lehmberg could come up with any
example of an instance where I have called upon the authority of
Mr Klass or Mr Kurtz to approve my position (I assume this is
what the above statement means)

>>It is convenient for ufologists to attempt to re-write history
>>in order to bolster their pet 'scientific' ETH theories,

>Now we must pause for astonished guffaws, Sir, when we remember
>how readily _you're_ lot would re-write the histories of
>Roswell, Rendelsham, Trindade... et al, to facilitate _their_
>pet theories. Verily, the irony breaker fuses in its box! <LOL>

Well, if you want to re-open Trindade, I'm game, but I suspect
the rest of the UpDates List is getting pretty fed up with it by
now.

>>but an
>>actual re-reading of history demonstrates that there is far less
>>of a distinction between 'abductees' and 'contactees' many
>>ufologists pretend.

>Finishing with a statement as empty as the statements
>preceding it. But consider, there may be more to be said in the
>affirmative with regard to your alleged "lack of distinction"...
>than your dodgy programming would allow, Mr. Rimmer. I suspect
>it runs counter to your personal philosophy, retirement
>portfolio, smirking hubris, and reflex arrogance... but it's a
>bullet you're going to have to bite down on, I suspect, sooner
>rather than later.

<bleep><bleep><cough><splutter> Lehmberg/English translation filter
malfunctioning.

>I promise not to say I told you so. We'll be too busy.

>Contactees and other "Guys Named George" notwithstanding, it
>_may_ be that... given the chance for a grain of 'some' truth at
>the core of the contactee myth (fueling it), the credibility of
>the contactee _might_ be 'elevated' by association with the
>abductee instead of the way _you'd_ have it in the preceding:
>the abductee 'tarnished' as a result of his association with the
>contactee.

Unlike Mr Lehmberg, I see no reason to consider contactees
lesser creatures than abductees. It is surely just as likely
that the credibility of the abductee might be 'elevated' by
association with the contactee. If anybody is being 'tarnished'
by association, I am more likely to think it is the contactees,
whose largely positive and progressive - even hopeful - view of
interplanetary contact has been 'tarnished' by the dark and
negative nature of most (but not all) abduction accounts.

For the contactees, humanity was something which, with suitable
guidance, would become part of a great universal ideal. To most
abductees, humanity is something in a test-tube, probably to be
washed down some galactic drain.

>Forgetting for a moment my own biases (already compensated for,
>thanks) yours carry neon signs, Sir, when they're not cloaked
>and camouflaged with baiting sarcasm, too clever literacy, and
>nuanced innuendo.

Almost anything I say will be taken as 'biting sarcasm' by Mr
Lehmberg, but I'm glad that he thinks, unlike Mr Clark, that I
can be 'nuanced'!

>Have a good week.

I have other plans.


John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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                         Re: Gemini 11 UFO - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 18:46:50 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:47:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Gemini 11 UFO - Sparks


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 10:40:53 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
>Subject: Gemini 11 UFO

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:12:58 EST
>>Subject: Re: Gemini 11 UFO?

>>I've already explained the GT-11 case a frw years back after
>>having listed it as an Unknown for many years. Can't go into it
>>right now.

>I understand that you found some other satellite/orbital debris
>that matched the GT-11 observation. What object was it?

Because of the osculating orbit effect whenever space debris
separates or is dumped sideways in orbit, giving a lateral
delta-V, it creates a slightly changed orbital inclination. The
objects will then return to the same place in orbit not just
once every orbit but twice every orbit, at exactly 1/2-orbit
intervals. In general most objects will have some varying amount
of component delta-V in the lateral direction.

The "bogey" sighting and photography was at about 27 hrs 43 mins
Ground Elapsed Time on Sept 13, 1966, or 1:25 PM EST that day,
over the South Atlantic at about 10 W, 25 S. The "bogey" crossed
in front of the Gemini spacecraft's path, just as ejected debris
in an osculating orbit would do. A few hours earlier just such
debris had been dumped:

At 24 hrs 2 mins Ground Elapsed Time on Sept 13, 1966, (or 9:44
AM EST) the Gemini 11 crew opened the hatch for astronaut
Gordon's first spacewalk and in doing so they dumped out several
bags of garbage.

Given the Gemini's 88.6-minute orbital period, 2-1/2 orbits
later would be at exactly 27 hrs 43.5 mins Ground Elapsed Time,
precisely when the "bogey" was seen crossing paths, to within a
margin of error of plus-or-minus a few minutes for the
uncertainties in the "bogey" sighting time and the time of the
garbage dump.

There is a small possibility for astronaut Conrad's own
explanation from space when he first reported the "bogey" (they
were out of radio range at the time of the sighting). Conrad
told the ground it "could be anything from our ELSS to something
else" (Condon Report, Bantam, p. 198).

The spacewalk backpack or "ELSS" (Extra-vehicular Life Support
System) was ejected along with other junk cluttering the capsule
at 25 hrs 37 mins elapsed time. The "bogey" time might be as
late as 27 hrs 48 mins when the spacecraft went into the earth's
shadow. That would be a time interval of about 131 mins, and 1-
1/2 orbits is 133 mins for an osculating intersection of the
debris orbit with the Gemini orbit. But that is probably about 2
minutes too late and the ELSS would have have been dark and
invisible in the earth's shadow. Unless the ELSS time was
actually a few minutes earlier (I don't have the ground-air
transcript with timings to the second to try to double check,
and even then it depends on an astronaut reporting it to the
ground immediately and not after a few minutes delay).


Brad Sparks








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                      Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Groff

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 20:12:28 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:48:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Groff


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 10:33:40 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
>Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft?

>i) If you go willingly, you are violating US law.

If you are referring to the so-called "Extraterrestrial Exposure
Law" Title 14 section 1211, according to Snopes it was done away
with in 1991.

http://www.snopes.com/legal/graphics/et.jpg

The intention of the law is/was to prevent anyone from bringing
anything back from space after coming in contact with another
celestial body.

Snopes'  report is at

http://www.snopes.com/legal/et.htm

I find it odd however that Title 14 Section 1211 seems to be
"reserved"

http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_01/14cfrv5_01.html


Terry








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                                Examine This!

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci.nul>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 02:35:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:51:24 -0500
Subject: Examine This!


Examine THIS! - The Military's Psychiatric Attack Against
Whistleblowers, Dissidents, Et Al

By Larry W. Bryant

Recently, a Florida-based graduate student contacted me for
background material on U. S. military personnel's right to the
very same freedom of speech/press that she, you, and I enjoy
under the First Amendment to the Constitution. She's preparing a
series of articles as part of her degree requirements in "media
law" studies.

As I pored over my personal archives in a cursory effort to
extract some worthwhile material for her project, I chanced upon
a hitherto underappreciated datum that nevertheless retains its
relevance after the passage of decades. It consists of three
exposes of a retaliatory tactic fondly (and wantonly) employed
by the military Powers that Be whenever they feel endangered by
anyone under their authority daring to exercise his/her free-
speech rights on a matter of public concern.

Example No. 1. From the "Law" section of TIME magazine for April
6, 1966, we learn that then-Army Specialist Fourth Class Gerald
L. Schmidt won his appeal to the military's "supreme court," the
three-(civilian)-judge U. S. Court of Military Appeals in
Washington, D.C. His cause celebre had begun when he fired off a
letter of complaint to his congressman, who chose to forward it
to Schmidt's chain-of-command for resolution.

The complaint dealt with the weighty topics of poor chow and
crowded quarters at Fort Riley, Kans. For his boldness, young
Schmidt incurred the wrath of his unit's first sergeant - and
was compelled to undergo extra duty in menial labor. Punishment,
doncha know, for exercising his statutorially protected right to
communicate with a member of Congress.

The TIME article explains: "When he warned his company commander
that unless the persecution stopped he would inform the press,
he was charged with 'wrongful communication of a threat' and
'extortion.'" Despite the prosecution's lack of any evidence
showing such criminal intent on Schmidt's part, this
confrontation ended his career and caused him to spend several
months in the stockade. The unanimous USCMA decision of March 4,
1966, reversed the conviction. Opined Judge Ferguson: ". . .
when [discipline] is perverted into an excuse for retaliating
against a soldier for doing only that which Congress has
expressly said it wishes him to be free to do, this Court would
be remiss in its duty if it did not immediately condemn the
effort to persecute him and stand as a shield between him and
his superiors."

Alas, neither Ferguson nor his two colleagues used this
opportunity to condemn another, more subtle tactic aimed at
discouraging/reining in/punishing dissident personnel. Though
the TIME article neglects to mention this (now-
institutionalized) tactic, the court's decision does indeed
reveal it, in all its non-glory:

"This observation [of Schmidt's immaturity] is borne out and
made more certain by the results of a psychiatric examination,
conducted during and made part of the Article 32 investigation,
in which the appellant was diagnosed as having a 'Schizoid
Personality, chronic, moderate, manifested by serious mindedness
and eccentricity.'" (In other words, and as depicted by TIME's
photograph of Schmidt in post-Army civilian attire, he fits the
description of what passes for a "nerd" today. But even nerds
and psychotics retain basic civil liberty - right, Your Honor?)

Example No. 2. Picture this: a UFO researcher who happens to
reside in Roswell, N.M., which happens to be the world-famous
site of a U. S. Army-retrieved crash-landed "flying saucer" back
in July 1947. And the researcher also happens to be a former
Army sergeant first class by the name of Clifford E. Stone, who,
during the mid-eighties, was serving as an administrative NCO at
the New Mexico Military Institute in Roswell.

Stone's sin of commission? Focusing (albeit via his own time and
resources) on heretofore officially suppressed UFO-related
information in government files; he simply was getting too close
to UFOtruth for his own good.

When some of Stone's superiors learned of his zealous pursuit of
one or more "leaked" documents pertaining to such UFO-related
operations as "Project Snowbird" and "Project Sigma," they
(surprise!) chose to make an issue of it at his office. Among
other harassment tactics, they relieved Stone of his duty
position and branded him an incompetent - this coming from the
same officers who earlier had rated him an outstanding non-
commissioned officer. In the course of that retaliation, they
shipped him off to a nearby Army post to undergo - you guessed
it - an involuntary psychiatric exam (which, of course, failed
to reveal any psychosis in this Vietnam veteran). Shortly
thereafter (and just before his planned retirement date), he
received orders to report for duty in Europe.

After going public with his story, seeking the aid of the Army's
inspector general, and, basically, sticking to his
constitutional guns, Stone won some vindication. A "commander's
inquiry" conducted by his revamped chain-of-command concluded
that "The XO [executive officer] (indorser) overreacted to
Stone's UFO interest and congressional contact, and in so doing,
exhibited intolerance and bias against him. Reconstruction of
events . . . strongly suggests that action against Stone was not
originally intended as a 'relief' but merely as a means to
conveniently and quickly eliminate him as an 'embarrassment.'"

Were someone ever to compile a volume titled "Profiles in First
Amendment Courage," then the Stone affair doubtlessly would make
the list in the Top Ten category.

Example No. 3. Back in the late fifties, a young Army employee
at an installation in southeast Virginia earned the intolerance
and bias of HIS superiors. They became intolerant of his non-
job-related research, views, and conclusions as expressed in an
unpublished monograph he'd had the audacity to share with one or
more of his car-pool members.

Somehow, a copy made its way into the hands of someone with
enough authority (and bias) to commission a psychiatric
examination - not of its author but of its contents (which
dealt with a matter of worldwide public concern resonating to
this day). The examiner's report raised no notion that the
author posed a danger to himself or to others, but couldn't
resist making disparaging remarks about the author's motivation,
referring to him as "A self-appointed investigator of high
commands who does not desire anonymity but apparently is a
publicity and sensation seeker." It recommended that the
author's future expressive activity be scrutinized for any signs
of trouble: "I find no evidence of insanity or subversion.
However, because of his persistence in seeking out secret
material, he must be viewed with suspicion."

Of course, we have no signs that certain military officials ever
will renounce their reliance on forced psychiatric exams to help
stifle and/or punish their subordinates' exercise of free
speech/inquiry/dissent on public issues. We, the taxpayers, have
to pay for those unwarranted - nay, unconstitutional - exams,
and we should demand their immediate cessation. Accordingly,
I've crafted the following whistleblower-solicitation ad for
submission to selected military post/base newspapers; once I
prevail in the current First Amendment lawsuit of "Bryant v.
Rumsfeld, et al.," look for the ad to appear in, say, the Army
headquarters' newspaper called the "Pentagram":

Blow the Whistle on the Military's Psychiatric Retaliation
Against Whistleblowers

Supposing you've acquired hard evidence of waste/fraud/abuse
(and/or cover-up thereof) during the course of your military
duty, and decide to blow the whistle on that wrongdoing.
Warning: be prepared for retaliation. According to accounts now
arriving at the web site of verpa.org, certain military
officials would have no compunction about requiring you to
undergo a psychiatric exam, whereby the preordained results can
get you administratively dismissed from service. That such an
abuse of publicly funded mental-health resources can occur on
American soil is bad enough, but the felony gets compounded
whenever any servicemember falls prey to it, for that victim has
no legal right to sue its perpetrators for damages. If you (or
someone you know) have been victimized by (or have witnessed)
this psychiatric warfare against the bearer of bad news, now's
the time to - well - blow the whistle on the practice. The
more of you who decide to come forward with your evidence, the
better such veterans groups as VERPA can help bring about
reform. Contact: Larry W. Bryant at (703) 931-3341; e-mail:
overtci.nul .

In the meantime, you can support this call for reform by
protesting the federal government's (proposed) compulsory
"nationwide mental-health screening" project. Left to its own
devices, how long would it take for this project to emulate the
military's exploitation of psychiatric medicine for political
ends? And if we can't stop this Orwellian boondoggle in its
tracks, we at least should demand that its first candidates for
the screening process be the entire community of military
psychiatrists.








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   Nov > Nov 23

                     Jeff Rense And His Anti-Semiticism

From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 17:07:45 +0000 (GMT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:57:06 -0500
Subject: Jeff Rense And His Anti-Semiticism


List

The subject of Jeff Rense's anti-semiticism has come up as a
topic on this List on a few occasions before. Below, over the
years, are a few examples.

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1999/may/m21-001.shtml

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/sep/m04-027.shtml

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/sep/m05-005.shtml

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/mar/m04-015.shtml


Rense appears to split the differential by taking an anti-
Zionist line, which of course is different to anti-semiticism,
and has some arguably justifiable moans about Jewish influence
within Washington.

However, I think the following probably clinches the debate. No
doubt the excuse will be that it is an example of free speech
etc. but you usually find this rubbish in the darker corners of
the Net. You don't expect to find it on a so called major Web
site.

http://www.rense.com/general50/prott.htm

The irony here is that the author of this piece is called
Cassidy and is likely to be of Irish descent. With the suffering
the Irish have endured over the years, you'd think there would
be some semblance of empathy.


Stuart Miller







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                You Gotta Have Faith Building A UFO In China

From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami.nul>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 7:57:04 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:07:31 -0500
Subject: You Gotta Have Faith Building A UFO In China


Source: The Baltimore Sun - Mayland

http://www.baltimoresun.com

11-21-04

You Gotta Have Faith Building A UFO In China

Countryside inventor: He lacks money, formal education and an
understanding of the science of flight, but he has a lifelong
dream

By Gady A. Epstein
The Baltimore Sun

Du Wenda's UFO chassis, which is powered by an eight-cylinder
engine, was disassembled after its first test flight on Oct. 22,
in which it briefly rose 4 inches off the ground for five or six
seconds, Du said. (Gady Epstein/The Baltimore Sun)

DUANYUAN, China - Tucked away down an unpaved cart path, behind
a high brick fence, is about the strangest thing anyone could
expect to find in the middle of rural nowhere, short of a UFO -
an "experimental base" for building one.

Well, technically, it's not unidentified, and it's not flying,
but what Du Wenda is building here in eastern China is
indisputably an object.

Du, the son of a horse-cart driver, is founder and president of
the Global UFO Scientific and Technological Research Institute
of Xiao County of Anhui Province, which is an institute with a
single proposition: to make a flying saucer for earthbound
travel.

Lacking money, formal education and a full understanding of the
science of flight, Du has an unlikely proposition. Certainly,
the first test "flight," observed by fewer than 20 people just
before dusk Oct. 22 at his experimental base, did not conjure up
images of the Wright brothers at Kitty Hawk. The UFO-looking
saucer, with rotors powered by a used eight-cylinder engine,
rose about four inches off the ground for five or six seconds,
he said.

Du, 39, a former maintenance man, has spent $95,000 in 2 1/2
years, including his family's savings, investor contributions
and proceeds from the sale of a cow, but he remains undaunted.

"We are still thinking about ways to find more funds for this
because at a later stage, if we want to make this into a real
product, we have to buy aviation engines and aviation
materials," said Du.

"I don't believe you have to think that building a flying saucer
is that hard. What I'm building will have similar capabilities
as a UFO, but the speed will be much slower."

In the late 1950s, China's countryside became the setting for
Mao Tse-tung's disastrous Great Leap Forward, during which tens
of millions of farmers were exhorted to answer Mao's call to
help the country industrialize quickly by operating backyard
blast furnaces to produce steel.

Today, some farmers are committing their livelihoods to the
pursuit of seemingly impossible dreams, including in a few cases
the building of a homemade flying machine, typically a
helicopter or plane. It is a poignant quest to participate in a
booming, industrializing society that stillpasses most of them
by.

Du's is perhaps the most outlandish of those dreams, but his
experimental base could hardly be more modest. Until Du leased
the land this year, farmers hauled bales of cotton every year to
this 3-acre tract to sell to the township government.

Parts of Du's futuristic machine rest on concrete slabs where
cotton once was stored. The guts of his contraption - it was
disassembled after the Oct. 22 test - are surrounded by patches
of sweet potatoes, turnips, cabbages and carrots, which are
being grown to feed about 20 workers devoted to the flying
machine. The 17-foot-wide chassis and a main rotor sit next to a
spinach patch.

The crops are there in part as a replacement for cash, because
Du has been unable to pay his workers, and there is little
prospect of paying them soon. The workers who remain, along with
investors who have contributed about $50,000 to the project,
believe the machine could become a profitable product.

Some, like Xu Ying, describe their belief as faith, in a way
that hints at a search for meaning in the countryside. She quit
her small business manufacturing clothes and her husband quit
his accounting job at a state-owned company to work on Du's
flying machine not long after she heard about it from friends.
The couple invested $2,400.

"It's said to be the transportation tool of aliens," said Xu,
54. "So I thought this thing that aliens have, can we have them,
too?"

One a recent weekday, Xu and a few other workers were taking
calls from the Chinese news media, which, after a nationally
televised segment on the project, has swamped them with
coverage, all extremely skeptical.

"We do not like the satire, the way they say peasants are
building this UFO," Xu said. "Not only do they not support us,
they did not comfort us spiritually."

Xu and others have placed their faith in Du, a self-confident
figure who established a local reputation as an inventor almost
a decade ago, when he sold a patent for a bamboo-weaving machine
to a coal mine company for more than $20,000.

Du has dreamed of flying saucers since he read a comic book in
fifth grade that featured a UFO in a dogfight with an airplane.
(The UFO won.)A graduate of middle school and vocational school,
he has long read anything he could find on UFOs and on aviation.
Two years ago, he earned a Chinese patent for his flying machine
design, which includes horizontal rotors of differing sizes
spinning in opposite directions at differing speeds.

"The UFO will have three functions: moving on the ground, in the
air or under water," Du explained in an interview last week. It
will be useful for short-distance travel, he said, because it
would be unaffected by bad roads or traffic. China's annual air
show in Zhuhai invited him to show the saucer this week, and he
is taking a small demonstration model.

Unfortunately, the demonstration version, a Styrofoam and
plastic model on display at the institute's office in the Xiao
county seat, clearly demonstrates a fundamental obstacle
confronting Du: aerodynamics.

As a UFO institute employee powered up the toy, its propellers
whirring, it levitated off the ground and wobbled this way and
that during its brief demonstration flight. It seems it could
sell as a toy - an option Du is pursuing - but it fails as a
model for something larger. Thereis no question that a flying
saucer can fly, but the problem is that without adjustable flaps
like on a plane, or a tail rotor like on a helicopter, it is
inherently unstable.

Xu said she felt rattled by some of the criticism but still
believes in Du, noting that he has a patent. In fact, she
worries about competition.

"Do you think that publishing a story outside the country will
be bad for us?" Xu asked a visitor. "Because there are also
people who are working on the same kind of project outside of
the country. They might steal our technology."









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   Nov > Nov 23

                Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base?

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:47:57 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:10:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base?


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 16:15:49 -0600
>Subject: Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base?

>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 12:37:37 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base?

>>Interesting, but they don't appear to cast shadows.

>Speaking of shadows, any speculation on these things? The
>graphic with magnifying glass is at the bottom of the page.

Alfred, Don and all,

Thanks for the responses, which I'm also receiving off-List.

Several individuals have said that the "Towers" are actually
part of the Apollo space craft which took the picture, and the
appearance of object being far away and attached to the surface
is an optical illusion. I don't have all of the responses here
at work, but I'll try to compile a generic statement including
the information sent to me. One photo is also alleged to be a
composite of two pictures.

This is apparently not the first time that objects close to the
space craft were caught in a photograph and gave the illusion of
an unknown craft (or object) of some sort. These pictures are
being distributed in an effort to obtain support and funding for
further research.


Steve








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   Nov > Nov 24

                    Spheres Over Tepoztlan Morelos Mexico

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 09:06:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 07:36:25 -0500
Subject: Spheres Over Tepoztlan Morelos Mexico


INEXPLICATA
The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
November 23, 2004


Date: 11.20.04
Source: Planeta UFO

Mexico: Spheres Over Tepoztlan, Morelos

On Saturday, November 20, Mr. Salvador Guerrero videotaped four
translucent spheres in the town of Tepoztlan, state of Morelos.
He was in the company of Amado Marquez and Eduardo Ortega
engaged in routine skywatching. The forementioned gentlemen are
renowned UFO watchers and have provided extraordinary evidence
since 1991.

At approximately 4:45 p.m., the team became aware of a strange
sphere (the size of a ping pong ball) almost at grund level, and
they approached it to record evidence, making three videotapes
with different cameras. Subsequently, the object headed for a
tree bough and remained surprisingly motionelss, then moving up
and down with intelligent movement, according to Salvador
Guerrero. At one point [the object] was very close to his own
body, scant centimeters away, and it was then that he reached
out to touch it. Upon contact with his skin, the sphere emitted
a gelatinous fluid that caused burning and discomfort to the
witness, leaving a red mark on his flesh.

A total of four spheres were observed at approximate intervals
of 5 minutes between each sighting.

The translucent structure can be clearly seen in the video, as
well as how they reflected sunlight, their unusual movement and
the confusion of the witnesses, since a group of boy scouts,
children and schoolteachers at the Escuela Meztitla field had
joined the threesome.

Prof. Ana Luisa Cid Fernandez has been in contact with Salvador
Guerrero, who still reports discomfort to his hand. He has been
advised to see a physician to ameliorate the symptoms and obtain
a diagnosis as to what happened to his skin. Guerrero had
recorded similar phenomena before, but had never touched it.

As additional data, it is worth noting that soap bubbles are
sold in this country, as well as unbrekable bubbles. However,
these have no resemblance whatsoever with the Tepoztlan spheres,
neither in structure nor in motion.

The video was presented today on the "Los Vigilantes" program.
It will also be shown  next Thursday on The Omar Chaparro Show
and Sunday on "Los Grandes Misterios de Tercer Milenio"
(www.jaimemaussan.tv)


Translation (c) 2004 Scott Corrales IHU
Special Thanks to Ana Luisa Cid Fernandez








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             Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base? - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:14:02 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 07:37:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base? - King


>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 22:13:20 -0000
>Subject: Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base?

><snip>

>>Interesting, but they don't appear to cast shadows.

>This structure is part of the Cheese delivery system, see my
>post about Lunar Cheese production at:

<snip>


Hi Joe,

I'll never look at queso the same.

Kyle






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   Nov > Nov 24

                  Rense Responds To Anti-Semiticism Charge

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 09:38:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 09:38:46 -0500
Subject: Rense Responds To Anti-Semiticism Charge





Posted For The Record - Not For Discussion


Forwarded by a UFO UpDates Subscriber

Errol Bruce-Knapp
Moderator UFO UpDates - Toronto

-----

I thought in all fairness that Jeff Rense should know what is
being said about him. So, in turn, I asked him what he thought
and this is his reply:


Thanks for forwarding the usual Zionist-neocon-fascist
book-burners 'Update.'  Long-recognized as a zionist
dominated hangout, certain Updates regulars have, for
years, threatened and intimidated most anyone who
would dare try to defend honest inquiry and freedom
of speech.  These are some vicious brown-shirted
dirtbags.

The number of Updates posters who have
written about the threats and intimidation
they have had to endure is sickening.  The
Zionists have taken control of the Administration,
so why not a UFO message board?

Not only can't Mr. 'Miller' spell anti-semitism but
he probably doesn't know that most Jews aren't
even SEMITIC peoples to begin with...they are
Khazars in origin who adopted the Jewish
religion in the 9th Century.

For those who may have missed it: the average,
non-affiliated Jew is not now - and has never been -
the problem.  The problem lies squarely upon the
atheistic, supremacist, racist, organized Zionist
Jew (aided and abetted by millions of ignorant,
unwitting Christian Zionist dupes), who has historically
been a determined revolutionary out to dominate
his surroundings and subvert or exterminate anyone
who stands in his way.

The Jewish support of Rense.com is enormous
which particularly galls those who try to smear
the site as 'anti-semitic.' I wish I could post
the emails from authors and others who
hang around Updates describing how they
have been threatened by net thugs and
terrorists not to have anything to do
with rense.com or my program.

We support Jews Against Zionism / Torah
True Jews (that, of course, makes rense.com
'anti-semitic') and their heroic work at
JewsAgainstZionism.com.

Read more...
http://rense.com/general54/thank.htm

So, again, thanks for the 'Update' but
I've seen it all before. Terrorism takes
many forms and slander and libel are,
as you very well know, one of its
baseline tactics.







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   Nov > Nov 24

                    Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:26:10 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 12:11:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft? - Lehmberg


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 23:28:05 +0000
>Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft?

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:38:39 -0600
>>Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft?

>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 18:17:52 +0000
>>>Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft?

>>>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>>Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 21:33:59 +0000
>>>>Subject: Re: Board An Alien Craft?

>>>>Presumably you are referring to so-called contactee stories. I
>>>>have in the past investigated dozens of those. How many have you
>>>>investigated? There are damn few (if any) credible polite
>>>>invitation stories. There are hundreds of credible abduction
>>>>stories. Witness credibility matters. There is a big difference
>>>>between raw data and investigated data.

>>>Amazingly, John Harney and I have investigated a contactee
>>>claim, that of Jim Cook, in Runcorn, England. I have also spoken
>>>to a number of abductees, including one of the individuals
>>>involved in the Aveley abduction case, in east London.

>>With all inappropriate filters removed and mind wide open,
>>interested only in the perceivable truth of the matter while
>>grinding no canted axes, I'm sure.

>With appropriate Lehmberg/English translating filters in
>position, I shall try to answer this response.

Leading with a smirk! Good show! I guess you have nothing to
volley, then, at all. I make a gently sarcastic observation on
your dismissive lack of balance regarding a twitchy subject, and
your opening remark is an off topic affront regarding my
sensibility and the style of my explication regarding same. LOL!

>>>Both people seemed to have been equally convinced about the
>>>reality of their claims, and I found neither one more or less
>>>convincing than the other.

>>Which really says nothing at all, on balance, and could even
>>be interpreted to say that your 'exhaustive' investigations into
>>this area, such as they are, have not discounted their verity.

>I never claimed to have 'exhaustively' investigated either the
>Jim Cook or the Aveley cases. I was simply giving my impressions
>of the people I have spoken to, and the accounts they gave me.

Hence the apostrophes around the word 'exhaustive', Mr. Rimmer,
another gentle sarcasm to which you seem too conveniently
oblivious... not a little astonishing. I'd thought the Brits had
invented sarcasm. But that's ok... Sir. Your clear admission
that you really hadn't looked at all... almost makes up for your
other intellectual transgressions... almost.

>>>The simple statement "There are hundreds of credible abduction
>>>stories" sounds like research by proclamation to me.

>>No Sir. It is a proclamation made as a result of research. I'm
>>not surprised you don't (...can't, won't...) see the difference.

>I have certainly not seen 'hundreds' of credible abduction cases
>- the point as issue is credible to whom? I have certainly read
>of many cases where the experiencer/abductee gives an account
>which suggests to me that they are not lying when they report
>what they have perceived to be an abduction. But I do not find
>these cases to be more or less indicative of an objective event
>than the contactee cases.

A lovely paragraph, Sir, replete with a pirouette, a scuttle,
and a slight of literary hand that does not address charging
Richard Hall with research by proclamation. Allow me to drag you
back there by your skeptybunky scruff.

>>>Are witnesses only to be considered credible if they have been
>>>given the imprimatur of one of the official Abductionfinders
>>>General?

>>This insentient statement is as ironic as it is insulting given
>>your penchant for 'klasskurtzian' imprimatur from the other side
>>of the aisle.

>I would be interested if Mr Lehmberg could come up with any
>example of an instance where I have called upon the authority of
>Mr Klass or Mr Kurtz to approve my position (I assume this is
>what the above statement means)

The last time you did this you got 'spanked', sir. Your
assumption is, of course, conveniently incorrect.

'Klasskurtzian', as you are probably aware, is a word I coined
describing a canted axe-grinding focus, a dismissively partisan
word-view, and a shallow philosophy as ignorant as it is
cowardly, as biased as it is incomplete, and as destructively
retrograde as it is expansively derogatory. You are a poster-boy
for that word, Mr. Rimmer. Were it in the dictionary it would
have, next to it, a little picture of yourself.

I hope this was a little clearer.

>>>It is convenient for ufologists to attempt to re-write history
>>>in order to bolster their pet 'scientific' ETH theories,

>>Now we must pause for astonished guffaws, Sir, when we remember
>>how readily _you're_ lot would re-write the histories of
>>Roswell, Rendelsham, Trindade... et al, to facilitate _their_
>>pet theories. Verily, the irony breaker fuses in its box! <LOL>

>Well, if you want to re-open Trindade, I'm game, but I suspect
>the rest of the UpDates List is getting pretty fed up with it by
>now.

Oh, too true, Mr. Rimmer. You've gone out of your way, like some
ufological swift-boater, to make those solid cases dry as
tedious chalk dust. It won't address the issue of your accusing
others of the boundless revisionism you are yourself guilty of,
but we've come to expect that of you...replete with a pirouette,
a scuttle, and a slight of literary hand...

>>>but an
>>>actual re-reading of history demonstrates that there is far less
>>>of a distinction between 'abductees' and 'contactees' many
>>>ufologists pretend.

>>Finishing with a statement as empty as the statements
>>preceding it. But consider, there may be more to be said in the
>>affirmative with regard to your alleged "lack of distinction"...
>>than your dodgy programming would allow, Mr. Rimmer. I suspect
>>it runs counter to your personal philosophy, retirement
>>portfolio, smirking hubris, and reflex arrogance... but it's a
>>bullet you're going to have to bite down on, I suspect, sooner
>>rather than later.

><bleep><bleep><cough><splutter>Lehmberg/English translation filter
>malfunctioning.

Res ipsa locutor, Mr. Rimmer. Your response speaks for itself. I
wouldn't add a line.

>>I promise not to say I told you so. We'll be too busy.

>>Contactees and other "Guys Named George" notwithstanding, it
>>_may_ be that... given the chance for a grain of 'some' truth at
>>the core of the contactee myth (fueling it), the credibility of
>>the contactee _might_ be 'elevated' by association with the
>>abductee instead of the way _you'd_ have it in the preceding:
>>the abductee 'tarnished' as a result of his association with the
>>contactee.

>Unlike Mr Lehmberg, I see no reason to consider contactees
>lesser creatures than abductees. It is surely just as likely
>that the credibility of the abductee might be 'elevated' by
>association with the contactee. If anybody is being 'tarnished'
>by association, I am more likely to think it is the contactees,
>whose largely positive and progressive - even hopeful - view of
>interplanetary contact has been 'tarnished' by the dark and
>negative nature of most (but not all) abduction accounts.

>For the contactees, humanity was something which, with suitable
>guidance, would become part of a great universal ideal. To most
>abductees, humanity is something in a test-tube, probably to be
>washed down some galactic drain.

...replete with a pirouette, a scuttle, and a slight of literary
hand, again, Sir. You _must_ be sweating by now.

My writing indicated that there should be no ranking or judgment
similar to that which you imply, while your writing artfully
indicates that the bias and judgment is mine! LOL... You should
work for our Republican party, Sir. They use your brand of
duplicitous Newspeak with alacrity! "It was a bright cold day in
April, and the clocks were striking thirteen," Mr. Rimmer.

>>Forgetting for a moment my own biases (already compensated for,
>>thanks) yours carry neon signs, Sir, when they're not cloaked
>>and camouflaged with baiting sarcasm, too clever literacy, and
>>nuanced innuendo.

>Almost anything I say will be taken as 'biting sarcasm' by Mr.
>Lehmberg, but I'm glad that he thinks, unlike Mr. Clark, that I
>can be 'nuanced'!

You're _not_ stupid, Mr. Rimmer. More's the pity. Moreover --
 Mr. Clark is well aware of your penchant for canted nuance,
Sir, which is otherwise taken by him as patent nonsense, I'd
suspect.

>>Have a good week.

>I have other plans.

...So suffer your skeptibunky scurvy, then... just try to do it
more quietly, won't you? There's a good lad.



alienview.nul -:|:-
www.AlienView.net









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   Nov > Nov 24

                          Re: Gemini 11 UFO - Smith

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:07:53 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 12:12:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Gemini 11 UFO - Smith


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 18:46:50 EST
>Subject: Re: Gemini 11 UFO

>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 10:40:53 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
>>Subject: Gemini 11 UFO

>>I understand that you found some other satellite/orbital debris
>>that matched the GT-11 observation. What object was it?

So you think the object was not the Proton, as your earlier work
with Bruce Maccabee concluded it could not be, but rather  some
sort of debris dumped from the Gemini 11 to which we have no
orbital elements.

I think you are correct.

Is this the same object/satellite you made in mail exchanges
with Oberg?

From: James Oberg (jamesoberg.nul)
Subject: Re: Gemini 11 and Proton 3
Newsgroups: sci.space.history
Date: 2002-11-28 21:00:56 PST

"...During the mail exchanges, Brad Sparks indicated to me that
he had found a close approach with another US satellite...."







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   Nov > Nov 24

             Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base? - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 09:13:08 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:36:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base? - King


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 16:15:49 -0600
>Subject: Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base?

<snip>

>Speaking of shadows, any speculation on these things? The
>graphic with magnifying glass is at the bottom of the page.

>http://www.alienview.net/tele9.html



Hi Alfred,

Long shadows can be created by low sun angle, sloped terrain, or
really tall towers, or a combination of these.

Without any data to provide context, a firm conclusion cannot be
drawn from the photo on its own.

What would be really nice would be to have a pair of probes
orbiting the moon on parallel paths maybe a quarter of the
moon's diameter apart. If they were synched to take photos
simultaneously of the same spot from their respective locations,
we'd have real stereo pair images to analyze.

Another idea would be for a single probe to orbit along the same
path twice such that the sun angle would be to one side during
one pass and the opposite side on the next pass. Not as exacting
as the first idea, but wouldn't require the synching and
precision.

There have been so many truly odd photos of and from the moon,
it is very close cosmically speaking, and we have a pretty good
handle on its movement.

I for one would like to see some of these anomalies revisited...
Hoagland's shard, the castle in the sky, Sinus Medi, Mare
Crisium, etc. And a photo or two of Tranquility Base for those
who hold that we never went there in the first place would be
welcome as well.

Until we take a closer and more targeted look at these places,
the answers will remain elusive.

One could say that your photo makes a mountain out of a mole-
hill, but even a mole-hill requires a mole or two, doesn't it?


Best Regards,

Kyle








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   Nov > Nov 24

                U.S. Agencies Aware Of Mexican C26a Incident?

From: Geoff Richardson <geoff.nul>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 18:45:21 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:40:34 -0500
Subject: U.S. Agencies Aware Of Mexican C26a Incident?


Recently Bob Pratt reported that an undisclosed informant
claimed that U.S agencies were aware of the C26A incident as it
happened. The informant also claimed that U.S. agencies
continually monitor the Gulf of Mexico and did, in fact, alert
the Mexican Authorities about the unidentified craft.

Evidence, in the form of articles published by "Rocky Mountain
News" has come to light which confirms that, indeed, NorthCom
does continually monitor the U.S. borders and does work in
conjunction with other agencies, hence providing substance to
the informant's claims.

To read the articles in full see:

http://www.thewhyfiles.net/mexican3.htm


Geoff Richardson







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                            Re: Shostack - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:59:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:42:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Shostack - White


>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 19:41:31 -0000
>Subject: Re: Shostack

>>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 15:38:12 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Shostack

<snip>

>>I've seen and heard about enough government crimes in my short
>>63 years to put _zero_ faith in reports that SETI hasn't picked
>>up any alien signals yet. It may be true, but there is an equal
>>chance they _have_ and haven't told the public about such finds
>>yet. SETI-at-Home? Could be they only post data they know is
>>'clean'.

>Are you saying that not only does the US government suppress
>info on crashed saucers, but that it has evidence of alien
>signals via SETI and is keeping this evidence under wraps?

I don't know if SETI has evidence of alien signals or not. But
the endless stonewalling by government on UFO matters indicates
to me that _if_ they have such evidence, they aren't going to
let the public know about it.

To have SETI come up empty handed is an _ideal_ way to quash the
silly idea that UFOs are ET craft.

>Also, are other governments doing this or are you limiting
>yourself to the US (and maybe assuming that no other country
>possesses the knowhow to partake in SETI).

Well, the British government discovering 'asbestos' on paper
records which might shed new light on UFOs, and which will keep
these records out of sight for 'years', is another good example.
Such 'asbestos' could first be vacuumed out by workers in
protective suits, then researchers, also wearing protective gear
could simply scan or photocopy the 'contaminated' records to
make the information available quickly. And from the days when
asbestos was regarded as safe, many people handled lots of it
for brief periods without keeling over.

The cover up is so obvious that if all the government buildings
in Washington DC sported 20-foot-high signs saying "We are
covering up the truth about UFOs", it couldn't be any clearer.


Eleanor White







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   Nov > Nov 24

               Re: HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - Vike

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO Research <hbccufo.nul>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:25:57 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:45:11 -0500
Subject: Re: HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - Vike


HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings

Release Date: November 23, 2004

HBCC UFO Research Note: For the visitors who drop by my website.
There will be a change in the website address. The new address
will be http://www.hbccufo.org The site is found at
http://www.hbccufo.com. Mind you we will be changing over in the
next while. Everyone can access HBCC UFO Research at the two
above addresses. But eventually the site will be found at:
http://www.hbccufo.org

Thank you, Brian


Brewarina, Engonia NSW Australia Two Lights, Side By Side Like Headlights

Date:  Unknown
Time:  After dark

Number of witnesses: Many
Number of objects: 2
Shape of objects: Two lights, side by side like headlights

I can remember visiting the colorful outback in Brewarina and
having heard stories of mysterious lights after dark.

The stories I encountered had been told by three separate
people, upon different days and each story told of the same
chain of events. After I had heard these stories I asked quite a
few people in the area about these lights while I was there and
everyone seemed to have heard of them too. The local folk called
the mysterious lights "dim dim lights" and it's become like a
legend around those parts.

The dirt roads in the outback can be long and lonely to drive,
especially after dark. A driver will be going up the road when
all of a sudden a pair of lights appear visible from behind. It
appears as though another vehicle is coming along, and so the
driver thinks nothing of it.

Soon the lights begin to approach rather quickly. The driver
keeps a close eye in the rear view mirror and driver's side
mirror, wondering if this person behind them will overtake them
or ram right into them.Then suddenly the lights disappear. As if
they were never there.

Baffled the driver continues up the road.

Not long after a pair off lights are suddenly seen from the
left, approaching vertically in the distance. They are coming
rather fast and there is no road off to the left. No matter how
fast the driver goes, the lights remain vertical to the driver's
vehicle.

In no time at all the lights are so close the driver is certain
there will be a collision. Only at the time of impact, the
lights vanish.

The same thing happens a little further along, only from the
right.

I am curious to know if anyone else has encountered or heard of
these mysterious lights.

Thanks Brian!

Sincerely,

Thank you to the person for the report.

-----------------------

Over Burbank Los Angeles, California Jets Chase Object

Date:  1956
Time:  2:00 pm

Number of witnesses: 3
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Unknown

Full Description of event/sighting: As my brother and I were
pulling weeds in the front yard on Orange Grove near Laurel
Canyon Blvd, we saw a shinny dot in the sky hovering over the
mountains . As we studied it my grand father came outside with a
pair of binoculars and began to look also. He then turned on the
radio in the car to hear what was being said about it. As we
looked and listened we heard that the government had scrambled
jets after it out of Lockheed and as the jets appeared, the
object seemed to disappear. The jets continued to chase after it
over the mountains. We heard no more about it after that.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

-----------------

University of Maryland Grayish Silver Craft

Date:  1975
Time:  7:00 p.m.

Location of Sighting: University of Maryland - Route
Number of witnesses: 2
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Too large to describe.

Full Description of event/sighting: On or about late Summer 1975
after graduating from high school a girlfriend and I were
cruising around the University of Maryland main drag, Route 1.
It's a very busy highway and there was quite a bit of traffic,
so I know everyone on the road must have seen it. But as we were
driving all of a sudden this grayish silver craft flew over the
highway.  It literally covered the sky it was flying that low.
My girlfriend and I just sat there in awe and just kind of
looked at each other and went "whoa".  We were not drinking or
anything of the sort at the time.  I didn't notice any lights
from it because it was so large but the strange thing about it
was it just kind of floated across the sky, made absolutely no
sound and had this strange thing floating from it like wings,
not  stationary but floating.  I never knew after that if there
were any reports from the public as I am certain we were not the
only ones who saw it.  There were just too many people on the
road. I will never forget that experience.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

--------------------

McGregor Range Ft Bliss Texas Cigar Shaped Object

Date:  1983
Time:  5:00 a.m.

Number of witnesses: 2
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Cigar as looking from the side.

Full Description of event/sighting: I've sent a previous report
about a UFO when I was a child but I had seen another. I was a
drill Sgt in Ft Bliss Texas when I was required to take a
Trainee to the hand grenade range to be retested . We were on
the range when it was still dark but the moon and the stars were
very bright, so bright that we could see very well. The trainee
had been walking around and then approached me to bum a
cigarette, as I looked out of the window of the van I saw an
object about 100 feet off the desert floor moving to the west
toward white sands. This object had no lights and made no sound
and was as bigger than a blimp. It blocked out the stars and
moon and moved at about 10 mph .We watch it for about 30 minutes
until it disappeared toward New Mexico.

There is an airfield on Ft Bliss and El Paso International
Airport nearby I thought that we would hear something about it,
but we didn't and others laughed when I told them.

Thank you to the person for the report.

--------------

Possible Abduction Of Saskatchewan Resident

Date: August 1985 circa
Time: 1pm - 5:30pm circa
Location:  Vegreville & Vermillion, Alberta
Duration: 91 km
Objects: 1
Witnesses: 1, possibly 2

Report received via e-mail:

Description of sighting: I've forgotten the year but think it
was around 1985 or a bit later--I believe it was the year of the
big tornado on the outskirts of Edmonton. Also, some weather
balloon testing was being conducted over Alberta at the time and
consequently I think I convinced myself that my sighting might
not have been significant. But I don't think weather balloons
behave in such a manner.

I was driving home to Saskatoon from Edmonton on an August
Sunday, leaving around 11 am. I took the Yellowhead highway and
stopped to eat at Vegreville for about 45 minutes. The highway
wasn't busy and shortly after getting back on the road I was
feeling a little bored and restless so rolled the sunroof open
for some fresh air. Glancing up I was a bit shocked to see a
silvery-almost translucent appearing disc hovering above the car
and keeping right up to my speed. Though I was somewhat fearful
I was also excited at the prospect of seeing a UFO.

The object remained directly above the car for about 10 minutes
(I think) at which time it rose rapidly upward (got smaller to
the eye) and moved off to my left, maybe a half mile to a mile
or so. There, it shadowed me until I reached Vermillion, even
turning as I did relative to road direction. At one point I
thought I would lose sight of it in an approaching cloud bank
but it rose straight up and over it and then down again. With
Vermillion in view I spotted a van parked by the side of the
road.

A man with binoculars was standing near the vehicle looking at
grain elevators, I believed. As the object would likely have
proceeded across his field of view I was thinking he would be
witnessing it too, so I stopped to get some badly needed
confirmation. I noticed his license plates were from Quebec
about the same time as I asked if he'd seen the object. But
there was no acknowledgement other than that he looked in my
direction without uttering a word, and he was expressionless!
Feeling pretty unnerved and possibly that I was being viewed as
a nutcase--or not viewed at all, I turned and got out of there,
fast. I looked for the object but never saw it after that, and
the sky had gotten cloudier. I don't think it really struck me
until quite a bit later as to just how late in the afternoon it
was when I'd arrived at (left) Vermillion--and that shouldn't
have been the case! I've never been able to account for what I
now believe to be missing time; probably a couple of hours or
more.

Q: When you first seen the object above your car, how high up
would you say it would have been?

A: This is a tough one. I'm guessing it was only a couple
hundred feet above me at most.

Q: Was the sky clear and was it sunny at this time?

A: Mostly clear and sunny, maybe a bit hazy or some high cloud
surrounding--a beautiful late August day really.

Q: If the sun was present, where was it positioned at this time
- relative to the object? Or what direction would you say the
object was travelling?

A: The sun would have to have been pretty much overhead I guess
though I didn't notice it...I do remember it being pretty bright
when I peeled back the sunroof though, however there was no
mistaking the object...it was there... and it was surrounded by
contrasty blue sky! I was heading pretty much east by south east
I think, and the object was always above the car so it was going
the same direction.

Q: Do you recall seeing birds near the area at all, or a plane?

A: Nothing. I remember thinking just how uneventful the passing
countryside was.

Q: Are you able to recall the size of the object or be able to
compare it to something else?

A: If you held a quarter about 4 inches from your eye, that was
the space it filled in relation to the sunroof opening. I'm
guessing the size would have been comparable to a jet, but round
of course.

Q: When refering to the object as a "disk", would this mean the
object seemed to be level flat on top and bottom? Or was it
completely rounded with ample body? Are you able to forward a
drawing of what you had seen?

A: I have attached a very poor drawing from memory. I remember
it seemed metallic and reflective or translucent. It did not
look like what I would perceive a balloon material would be
like, it seemed substantial and somewhat flat though as it moved
off to the left it's circular shape was maintined but a bit more
cigar-like I think. It definitely had body to it and would have
been capable of housing something. Judging by the precision
navigation and speed of it I believed it had to be occupied and
was being flown.

Q: You mentioned that you were aware of some weather balloon
testing going on. Could you explain how you knew this?

A: I heard about the testing on the television news beforehand.
I don't remember the details at all but it seems it was fairly
big news at the time.

Q: The object was keeping right up to your speed. Could you
recall how fast you were travelling?

A: I would have been going 60 mph or a little more. I remember
slowing down somewhat, for a few minutes after first sighting
the object. At one point I remember coming close to driving into
the ditch when it started to sink in that it had locked in on me
and that I was alone and possibly in danger.

Q: A trip from Edmonton to Vermillion should take approximately
2 hours, but you also stopped in Vegreville for a bite to eat
and that took you approx 45 minutes. This would mean that you
should have been in Vermillion around 1:45 or 2:00pm. You
believe you may have lost some time (a couple of hours) between
Vegreville and Vermillion? Would you say that you then
arrived/left Vermillion around 4pm or so instead?

A: It could have been even a bit later. I made a brief stop
after that, at Lloydminster for gas and arrived back in
Saskatoon at dusk. (About 8 pm I think) The funny thing was I
don't think it fully registered that I was getting back so late
until after I'd gotten home. Was I in a daze or something?

Q: How often have you made the same trip?

A: Not often, maybe three times before that and a few times
since.

Thank you to the witness.

Drawing can be viewed at the NWSURC website.

Barb's note: Please contact NWSURC if you have encountered a similar experience
within the same area or if you were there on that day and may have seen the same
 object.

Barb Campbell, NWSURC
Box 263
Maidstone SK S0M 1M0
Ph:(306)893-4009
Northwest Saskatchewan UFO Research Center (NWSURC)
E-mail: contactus.nul
E-mail: sighting.nul
Web: http://www.nwsurc.com
NWSURC Forum: http://nwsurc.conforums3.com/

-----------------------

Studio City, California Triangular-Shaped UFO

Date:  1988 ?
Time:  N/A

I keep meaning to write to you about some of my experiences. The
most prominent one in recent decades was observing one night in
Studio City, California, a triangular-shaped UFO "attached" to
the antenna and lights at the CBS studio on Ventura Blvd. I was
coming down off Carpenter Street, a hill, and while waiting at
the light on Ventura, I was looking straight ahead at CBS.
Something about the lights on the pole...don't  know  how else
to describe the pole -- a metal pole with lights having to do
with their signal. Anyway, as I was looking, trying to figure
out what the heck was different about it, some of the lights
dis-engaged and began moving away.

That's when I saw the triangular shape. I followed it down to
Colfax Avenue and turned left going up Colfax a couple of blocks
and past where I lived. As, I tried to keep up with it, it
picked up speed and disappeared going north and over the Jr.
high school there. I was shaken, I tell you. At one point, I was
nearly under it and it was so obviously a black, large
triangular aircraft of some kind.

Addional Information For Above Report:

What I didn't make clear, perhaps, is that the thing attached to
the signal "antenna" at CBS was completely camoflauged. There is
very little traffic in the area, and particularly at midnight
when I was returning home late from a friend's house. But,
because I'd come down that hill many times before, I was used to
seeing it, so that night it appeared different to me, and while
I was trying to figure out what I was looking at, it dis-engaged
and moved away, traveling east very slowly. I almost had a heart
attack. It scares me to write or even think about it.

Also in 1990 my daughter and roommate saw a "round" UFO in the
same area across the street from out condo. It was  just sitting
over the house across the street. They came running in the
house, but by the time we got back outside it was gone.

There was no missing time in either of these events.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

--------------------

Mississauga, Ontario Star-Like Object Makes 90 Degree Turn

Date:  July 16, 2004
Time:  Approx  11:30 p.m.

Location of Sighting: North end of lake of bays  (near Huntsville Ontario)
Number of witnesses:  2
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Light in the sky similar to a bright star.

Full Description of event/sighting: I went outside onto the dock
to look at the night sky which is something I always do when I
get out of the city. This night happened to a very clear bug-
free night, I had been out on the dock lying down on an
overturned aluminum boat looking up of course hoping to see some
shooting stars of which I did see about 5 or 6  I did also see
lots of satellites  and quite a few planes with their flashing
red and green lights. I would say I had been out there for at
least an hour when I noticed something that was moving south in
a straight line it looked like a bright star but the unusual
thing about it was that it was flashing on and off I would say
it was about half second intervals at this point I said to
myself wow this is kind of strange then the object made a 90
degree turn east then continued in this direction for about 7 or
8 seconds then turned southwest for again about 7 or 8 seconds
at this point I knew I was seeing something very unusual and I
called my wife to come out and have a look at it.  During this
whole time it kept on flashing and changing directions numerous
times.

My wife was hesitant to come out but I insisted she had to get a
look at this object.  When she finally came out the object  was
still flying back and forth I kept pointing it out to her but
see really couldn't make it out too well although afterwards she
said she did see the light.

Afterwards I realized that she had turned on some lights in the
cottage on her way out and this must of night blinded.

I would have to guess that in total I had observed this object
for about ten minutes when I went to look up again the object
had gone, it just wasn't there anymore.

The object that I observed appeared to be very high up in the
sky as it looked like a bright star.

This object was by far the strangest thing I've every seen in
the night sky in my 49 years of sky gazing.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

----------------------

Aaron Provincial Park (Outside of Dryden, Ontario)

Date:  July 19, 2004
Time:  10:47 p.m.

Number of witnesses: 5
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Could not define.

Full Description of event/sighting: It was seen by one of the
five in our group, at first we thought it was a shooting star.
This object was higher than a plane and lower than a shooting
star and not a satellite. What grabbed our attention was the
speed it traveled across the whole sky in about 1 minute but not
only that, it would stop and take 90 degrees angles up and down
than the object shot straight out into space. I can not tell you
the shape of this object because it was to far away.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

--------------------

Toronto, Ontario Hovering Object

Date:  November 12, 2004
Time:  Approx.12:20 p.m.

Hi Brian,

I've got another daylight sighting with another witness over
Toronto, observed in Scarborough, Ontario. On Friday, November
12, 2004 at approx.12:20 p.m. facing southwest on a perfect
clear sky, observed a small round bright object with binoculars.
This object could only be seen with binoculars and not the naked
eye, it was that much higher. It appeared like the other high
sightings in the day that could have been Venus, Mars or any
other planet. This one moved after 5 minuets, very slowly to the
north and as luck would have it while this was happening I
grabbed another witness which I've never met before. As I sat
watching the object and used a hydro pole as a marker. I asked
the DHL courier driver if he had good eyes and his reply was
"yes". Then asked him, "do you want to see a UFO" and looked at
me strange and said "sure". I got up from sitting and instructed
him to sit were I was. I gave him the binoculars, pointed at the
hydro pole as the marker and "Yes" he too could see it. He could
see it moving very slowly in a northerly direction with it
stopping and going. Then a minute later, he said it disappeared.
He passed over the binoculars and he was right, nothing there. I
had him call our local UFO hotline after the sighting. Then he
gave me the envelop he was delivering and left shaking his head.
When he left, of course I'm out there again viewing and found it
again. The object was a full arms length over to central western
sky, viewed it for another 2-3 minutes. Checked the sky in
different spots for any other objects with no luck. Focused back
to the one object, gone!!!! Now, I'm wondering the other
sightings that I thought that might be planets seen in the day
may not have been planets. Again, one thing to note Nov.12, 2004
on a new moon and the investigator may be re-thinking of my
sightings as I have the witnesses call him.

Take care Brian, I'll continue to skywatch.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

-----------------

Caledon Ontario Object Making Small Quick Circular Patterns

Date:  November 22, 2004
Approx; 6:45 p.m.

Hi Brian,

This is just a reminder of what I saw again last night, I
thought I'd send this picture because this is the same UFO that
I see quite often. I haven't had a camera for a couple of weeks,
but you can be sure that this is what I saw again last night, it
was in the south sky around 6:45 p.m. and it was slowly making
its way to wards the west, its movements were small quick
circular patterns as it moved across the sky. There were many
stars in the sky last night and as most would notice, these have
rapidly flashing lights,not like a star. It appears there's
still some action going on in Ontario and I know from my
experiences that they visit throughout the winter as well. I'll
keep watching.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO Research Home - Phone 250 845 2189
email: hbccufo.nul Website: http://www.hbccufo.com
Redirect: http://www.canadianufo.com HBCC UFO RESEARCH
Newsletter At:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HBCC_UFO_Newsletter/

HBCC UFO Research, Box 1091 Houston, British Columbia, Canada -
 VOJ 1ZO

------------------------

Christmas Gift, Books
UFO Defense Tactics: Weather Shield to Chemtrails - By:
Johnstone, A. K

Dr. Johnstone's book was selected by The Anomalous Book List, as
one of the ten best UFO books of 2002.

Description: The existence of UFOs is a phenomenon that
intrigues and captivates, yet it generates more skepticism than
acceptance. Witnesses of unconventional craft are often
disbelieved and even ridiculed. Belief in the existence of UFOs
is obviously not yet mainstream, but that may one day change.
Over the past few decades, reports of UFO sightings have
dramatically increased in North America. Further, these
sightings have been observed to be more blatant and even
menacing. Some reports even imply that these craft are
monitoring our planet.

Interestingly, many of these sightings have taken place over
military bases. In UFO Weather Shield, A.K. Johnstone, PhD.,
explores the details of numerous sightings from a scientific
viewpoint, including descriptions of craft, luminous sheaths and
fireballs. So what, if anything, is the United States government
doing about it? Johnstone suggests that military and government
agencies have the ability to manipulate weather
electromagnetically and with chemtrails to deter unconventional
craft. This hypothesis also explains erratic changes in the
weather in the last few years. Is the government creating a
weather shield to deter UFOs from entering the earth�s
atmosphere? Take a look at the evidence.

To purchase the book, please visit:
http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1934





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   Nov > Nov 24

                  Remote Viewing An Exciting New Technology

From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 20:14:03 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:51:20 -0500
Subject: Remote Viewing An Exciting New Technology


Hi Everyone!

Thanks to a researcher at York University, Santa Claus will now
be able to see for himself which girls and boys on the UFO
UpDates list have been naughty or nice.

Below is a news article about an emerging new "alien" technology
that just a few decades ago only the CIA and their Russian
counterparts showed any interest (and had some success) in.
Unlike this new technology, they were experimenting with the
most advanced and complex computer known in the entire universe,
the human brain, which like a multifunction scientific
calculator, we all use less than its full potential during our
lifetime.


Nick Balaskas

----------

Story covered in the YFile

http://www.yorku.ca/yfile/archive/index.asp?Article=3638

SAME Enables Virtual Views Of Anywhere On Earth

Imagine having the ability to view, in real time, downtown
Paris, and to be able to identify cars driving on the street. In
fact, a virtual visit to the Eiffel Tower is now possible thanks
to a new groundbreaking technology developed by York University
Professor Vincent Tao.

Tao (left) has developed innovative satellite mapping technology
that enables users to visually zoom in on or fly over any place
on the planet in real time. Called SAME (an acronym for See
Anywhere Map Everywhere), it is an Internet-based technology
that provides 3-D imagery with ground resolution of a half-metre
to one metre close enough to identify automobile makes, for
example, but not the human face.

The most exciting possibilities for SAME are monitoring,
surveillance and mapping of critical infrastructure sites and
regions around the world, says Tao, Canada Research Chair (CRC)
in Geomatics Engineering and director of Yorks Geospatial
Information and Communication Technology Lab (GeoICT). He notes
that potential applications are broad, including defence,
emergency response, environmental monitoring, telecommunications
and urban planning.

Taos work in geomatics engineering utilizes geographic
information systems (GIS), remote sensing and positioning, and
navigation systems to develop geospatial information technology.
Modern geomatics is a Canadian invention that has spawned an
industry generating over $2 billion in products and services
annually, and employing a workforce of approximately 30,000. The
term geomatics was invented in Canada in the late 1980s and has
been adopted by most English speaking countries, says Tao. York
houses one of only four Geomatics Engineering programs in
Canada, and the GeoICT lab is one of the largest in North
America.

A familiar consumer application of geomatics is the dashboard-
 mounted map navigation systems in some automobiles, technology
that Tao was working on in 1996. Visualize that technology
employed in the near future on a global scale, says Tao, where
sensors monitoring traffic, weather, water and seismic
variations are all connected to a central processor. It would
provide an unparalleled opportunity to use that data for
disaster preparedness and relief.

York is an international leader in research on the Spatial
Sensor Web, a network that will synchronize these types of
sensor data for global sensing and monitoring. The programs are
funded by Taos Canada Research Chair award, the Canadian
Foundation for Innovation, Ontario Innovation Trust, Natural
Sciences Engineering Research Council, Geomatics for Informed
Decisions Network, Networks of Centres of Excellence, Centre for
Research in Earth Space Technology, Pre-Competitive Applied
Research Network (PRECARN), York University and government and
private sectors.

Tao will address the Partnership Group for Science and
Engineering <http://www.pagse.org/en/breakfasts/geomatics.htm>
(PAGSE) in Ottawa on Nov. 25. PAGSE is an umbrella group of 20+
science and engineering organizations operating under the
auspices of the Royal Society of Canada. Bringing together
government leaders with Canadas top scientists, the audience for
this event will include members of the House of Commons,
senators and media.








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   Nov > Nov 24

               Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base? -

From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:58:55 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:54:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base? -


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 14:31:16 -0500
>Subject: Official Proof Of Moon UFO Mystery Base?

>Official Proof of Moon UFO Mystery...Base? So close to home?


Problem solved by LanFleming.nul
Saturday, November 20, 2004 1:37 PM

http://www.surfingtheapocalypse.net/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?read=34957

I was hoping it was none other then our dreaded Soul Catcher.
<chuckle>


John






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                         365-24/7 UFO Radio Network?

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 00:03:40 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:55:41 -0500
Subject: 365-24/7 UFO Radio Network?


Again I've got several Ufologists with financing problems.

So I was shown an opportunity to develope a 24/7 365 radio
program network. So far it looks good. If anyone is interested
in doing their own program on the network let me know and I'll
give you the skinny so far. It's web-based at first but the
option for affiliate broadcast is there as well as long as
there's enough personality :)


Best,

Greg







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                             Happy Thanksgiving

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 09:39:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:56:46 -0500
Subject: Happy Thanksgiving


Happy Thanksgiving!!!


Don't forget: you've got to catch the Bird before you can eat
it!

--Scott









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                 Life Is Just A Dream/Many Worlds Hypotheses

From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 16:00:53 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 18:00:12 -0500
Subject: Life Is Just A Dream/Many Worlds Hypotheses


Query for List

In universe A, a computer scientist designs a virtual universe
(X) and its inhabitants [see TIERRA or "psyche storms"], and
with excellent parsimony writes code enforcing "self-
consistency" and "self-justification".

So each persona will feel 'right', imagine own 'flesh & blood',
feel 'pain', bleed when 'cut', starve when 'hungry' and
experience all the similarly "self-consistent" phenomena of a
"self-consistent" universe X.

Then a theoretical physicist claims their own 'reality' -
(universe A) - might also be a virtual construct.

He asks - "How could anybody decide, by examining experience or
experiment on universal phenomena, whether they themselves were
'real' or not?"

Does the brain hurt? Is it that code, trying to force "self-
consistency" and "self-justification" on you?


Cheers

Ray D

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Perceptions" http://www.perceptions.couk.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







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                        Thailand's Yee Peng Festival

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 13:39:43 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 18:02:13 -0500
Subject: Thailand's Yee Peng Festival


Hi List,

I came across this video, and thought to pass it along.

http://www.cbsnews.com/media/2004/11/23/video657282.rm

Quite an impressive sight, and while definitely IFOs, I wonder
if any UFO sighting reports will result. Some of those things
looked eerily familiar. <g>

I also wonder what it would look like from space, if it were
visible at all.

A bountiful holiday season to you all,


Kyle King







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                          Secrecy News -- 11/24/04

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 15:23:29 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 18:03:28 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 11/24/04


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 104
November 24, 2004


**      THE COLLAPSE OF INTELLIGENCE REFORM
**      CRS ON NAVY FORCE STRUCTURE
**      NAVY DIRECTIVE ON FOREIGN DISCLOSURE
**      MCCAIN ON BOEING TANKER LEASE
**      MANHATTAN PROJECT PHYSICIST ROBERT BACHER


THE COLLAPSE OF INTELLIGENCE REFORM

Psychoanalysis, wrote Viennese polemicist Karl Kraus, is itself
the mental illness that it proposes to cure.

Similarly, "intelligence reform" has now come to embody many of
the defects that it was presumably intended to rectify,
including irreconcilable priorities, lack of accountability, and
contempt for democratic decisionmaking.  Neither the unanimous
recommendations of the bipartisan 9/11 Commission nor the
subsequent months of public deliberation were sufficient to
dislodge the intelligence bureaucracy and it congressional
allies from their entrenched positions.

Yet the failure by Congress to approve an intelligence reform
bill also comes as a relief, because the final version of the
bill contained numerous unexamined and objectionable provisions
that were inconsistent with the 9/11 Commission recommendations.
 Among others, the bill endorsed the false claim that disclosure
of the intelligence budget total is inconsistent with national
security, a claim that is refuted annually by the United
Kingdom, Canada, the Netherlands and other countries, all of
which routinely publish their intelligence expenditures.

With the collapse of congressional deliberation, the White House
has stepped in energetically to fill the void, proposing a
massive expansion of CIA personnel.

"I direct you to implement within the CIA measures to...
increase, as soon as feasible, the number of fully qualified,
all-source analysts by 50 percent... [and to] increase, as soon
as feasible, the number of fully qualified officers in the
Directorate of Operations by 50 percent," President Bush wrote
in a November 23 memorandum to the Director of Central
Intelligence:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2004/11/wh112304dci.html

A second memorandum instructs the Attorney General to strengthen
the investigative capabilities of the Federal Bureau of
Investigation:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2004/11/wh112304ag.html

A third White House memorandum calls for an interagency review
of whether lead responsibility for conducting covert
paramilitary operations should shift from the Central
Intelligence Agency to the Defense Department:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2004/11/wh112304dos.html


CRS ON NAVY FORCE STRUCTURE

Several new reports from the Congressional Research Service
address aspects of U.S. Navy force structure.

"Navy-Marine Corps Amphibious and Maritime Prepositioning Ship
Programs: Background and Oversight Issues for Congress,"
November 15, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/man/crs/RL32513.pdf

"Navy Ship Deployments: New Approaches -- Background and Issues
for Congress," updated November 15, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/man/crs/RS21338.pdf

"Potential Navy Force Structure and Shipbuilding Plans:
Background and Issues for Congress," November 8, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/man/crs/RL32665.pdf


NAVY DIRECTIVE ON FOREIGN DISCLOSURE

U.S. Navy policy on the disclosure of classified information to
foreign governments is set forth in a new Secretary of the Navy
Instruction.

See SECNAVINST 5510.34A, "Disclosure of Classified Military
Information and Controlled Unclassified Information to Foreign
Governments, International Organizations, and Foreign
Representatives," October 8, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/navy/secnavinst/5510_34a.pdf


MCCAIN ON BOEING TANKER LEASE

In an unusually vigorous and confrontational display of
congressional oversight, Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) last week
described how U.S. Air Force officials and the Boeing
Corporation colluded on a contract to supply aerial-refueling
tanker aircraft that would have cost taxpayers unnecessary
billions of dollars.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2004/s111904.html

Sen. McCain placed in the Congressional Record a series of
internal Air Force email messages and other records of a sort
that is hardly ever seen in public, including embarrassingly
explicit efforts to manipulate press coverage of the proposed
tanker lease deal.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2004/s112004.html

These records "raise serious questions about the undue influence
that industry exerts on procurement decisions in the Pentagon,"
Sen. McCain said.


MANHATTAN PROJECT PHYSICIST ROBERT BACHER

Robert Bacher, a leading Manhattan Project physicist and later a
member of the Atomic Energy Commission, died last week.

http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-me-
bacher20nov20,1,1491299.story

As a member of the Tolman Committee, Bacher co-authored what was
in effect the first declassification guide pertaining to nuclear
weapons science, technology and production.

"Using a topical list of production and research activities in
the Manhattan project, the Committee assigned each subject to
one of three categories: information recommended for immediate
declassification; information whose declassification would be
conducive to the national welfare and to long-term national
security; and that not recommended for declassification,"
according to the official history of the Atomic Energy
Commission ("The New World, 1939/1946," by Richard G. Hewlett
and Oscar E. Anderson, Jr., p. 647).

"Before the end of 1946, the committee of reviewers held three
meetings and declassified about 500 documents. Scientists
outside the project were probably correct in dismissing this
accomplishment as an insignificant gesture, but they could not
have appreciated the amount of work the reviewers had devoted to
studying the great variety of complex technical categories and
preparing detailed guides."

Those initial declassification actions are reflected in the
Department of Energy's comprehensive compilation of "Restricted
Data Declassification Decisions, 1946 to the Present," January
1, 2001:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/doe/rdd-7.html



_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

To UNSUBSCRIBE, send a blank email message to
secrecy_news-remove.nul

OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:
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Secrecy News has an RSS feed at:
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_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood.nul
voice:  (202) 454-4691







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   Nov > Nov 24

                         Serious 'Starchild' Problem

From: Lloyd Pye <mailing_list.nul-uk.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 18:04:45 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 18:08:03 -0500
Subject: Serious 'Starchild' Problem


Hello to all of you:

First, I want to wish all Americans, Happy Thanksgiving! To the
rest of you, we all have something to be thankful for this year.

As you know if you've been to the new website:

www.starchild-uk.com

to see the slide show there, we have discovered two unknown,
previously unimagined aspects of the Starchild's bone: (1) what
seems to be highly durable fibers threaded throughout; and (2)
what seems to be dessicated marrow, or some other reddish
residue, in the cancellous holes that contained marrow when it
was alive. These are both certain to be historic finds,
regardless of whether they do or don't mean the Starchild is at
least partially of alien origin.

Thus, after six long years of frustrating struggle, we stand on
the verge of making world-class history at some point during the
next few months. Unfortunately, the closer we've drawn to
scientifically proving our supposition about possible alien
involvement, the less we are being helped to achieve that
monumental goal. This is a baffling contradiction, one I simply
don't understand. I work for all of you, in the stead of
everyone whom I assume would do what I do if you had the
opportunity. I would expect you all to help even more as we drew
closer to the final goal. Yet exactly the opposite has taken
place. The closer we get, the more help has dried up, to the
point where we are near blowing away. I'm being painfully
serious when I say that.

It's all about numbers, which is why I opened with how many of
you are on the Starchild mailing list - 1500. A few months ago,
when I last sent out a plea for help, we received $1500 in
contributions. You can all see the average. One person gave
$1000, four others gave the other $500. 5 out of 1500. You can
see that average, too. But the bottom line, the most crucial
number, is this: we are periously near to 0 (zero) in the
Starchild bank account, and if we don't get a serious infusion
of help by the end of the year, we will be forced to close up
shop for an indeterminate time, if not permanently. For sure the
momentum and goodwill we've established with some of the
research community in England will be lost. This would be a
tragedy I hope all 1500 of you will consider helping us to
avoid.

Again look at some numbers. If all 1500 of you gave $10, we'd
have $15,000 - nearly halfway to our total requirement of $40,000
dollars. (For a detailed breakdown of our needs, provided by
those willing to do the work, see the list below this letter.)
If all of you gave $20, we would have $30,000 - 3/4 of the way to
the $40,000 we need. And if you all gave $30, we'd have $45,000-
-the $40,000 we need with $5,000 left over for contingencies.
$30 from each of you would solve all the problems and allow us
to move ahead with full steam.

Naturally, not ALL of you are going to contribute even a dollar,
much less $30. Let's face it, when only 5 out of 1500 respond to
a well-justified plea for help, we obviously have a motivation
problem. That is just as obviously my fault. I simply have never
quite figured out how to motivate each of you to contribute to
the cause. But now it's down to do-or-die for all of us. Many of
you have been in this from the start, and many of you have
contributed along the way, many of you for substantially more
than $30. If not, I wouldn't be here writing you from London; I
would not have made it this far.

Assuming not everyone will contribute $30, that some of you will
have to take up slack from others who, for whatever reason,
simply cannot send even a minimal amount, if you can, PLEASE
send more, whether $50 or $75 or even $100 (or more if you can).
I don't know how else to say it. I don't know how to grovel any
more abjectly than this. I have put six long, grinding, often
humiliating years into this work, into getting this thing
scientifically evaluated, and now I have it on the verge of
success. I can't imagine what it will be like to have to pull
back and accept a defeat of this magnitude, all for lack of an
ability to motivate the 1500 of you on my mailing list.

I can do no more. It's up to you, each and every one of you, and
those you might forward this to. You all have to decide if you
want this to end knowing you DIDN'T help at the modest level I'm
asking all of you to contribute. You will notice, I hope, that
I've never asked you all to contribute a small amount before.
I've always felt that would be more like begging than asking for
your heartfelt contributions. But desperate times call for
desperate measures. This is as desperate as times are going to
get for the Starchild. I don't know how else to make you
understand this.

If you are willing to help, PLEASE send checks or bank drafts to
Belinda McKenzie, NOT ME, at the address below. (The PayPal
account on the website is usable as well.) Belinda is the
paymaster now, handling all the money from her Cognoscence
account. I'm just an employee and glad to be that to avoid the
taint of managing the money. See the list below for where your
money will be spent, and why, and know that not a penny will be
wasted or spent frivolously. All of us involved in this are
seekers of truth, that and nothing more. If you feel the same,
now is the time to put at least a
little money toward justifying those feelings. Send what you can to:

Belinda McKenzie  (b.mckenzie.nul)
83 Priory Gardens
Highgate, London
U.K.   N6  5QU   (that's 5 Queen Under)

Here are the tests we need and the procedures required, and what
they cost, with costs provided by those who will do the work.

1) Microtomography to reveal the bone's 3-D internal structure -
$800

2) Laser raman spectroscopy to characterize the Starchild's bone
and compare it with the human - $1000

3) Light element stable isotope ratios of oxygen, hydrogen,
carbon, sulphur, and nitrogen to provide more information about
diet and geographical provenance - $1200

4) Strontium and lead isotope ratios for the same elements as #3
in both Starchild and human ($800 each) - $1600

5) Electron probe/ion probe analysis OR laser ablation ICP
analysis to determine trace element concentrations and spatial
variability which might be related to the unusual bone strength-
-$3000

6) Electron microscopy and chemical microanalysis to compare the
grit particles on both skulls ($800 each) - $1600

7) MALDI-TOF to determine whether fibers or residue are fungi or
bacteria, organic or inorganic - $1500

8) A new DNA test using advanced techniques for recovery and
analysis of the Starchild's nuclear DNA - $10,000

9) Two weeks in northern Mexico for two qualified researchers to
seek out the village where the skulls were found, recovering
soil samples of the general area, visiting local experts, local
museums, etc., to try to get a clearer picture of the purported
provenance - $10,000

10) A clay model reconstruction of the Starchild's head - $3000

11) Consultancy fee for qualified guidance to and through the
maze of all the accumulated testing procedures - $5000

Total for all analytical tests and informational procedures:
$38,900 rounded off to $40,000. All prices verifiable if
requested, and any may be earmarked for individuals who may want
to pay for a particular test. In addition, any contributor moved
to pay for a particular procedure will be sent the bill on
request. We will make almost any kind of accommodation to
get our money problems resolved. Thank you.


Lloyd Pye
London  11/24/04






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   Nov > Nov 25

                NWSURC Recently Reported Sightings - 11-24-04

From: Barb Campbell - NWSURC  <contactus.nul>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 16:46:13 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 07:32:23 -0500
Subject: NWSURC Recently Reported Sightings - 11-24-04


Star-like Light Near Moon Suddenly Takes Off
Date: November 23, 2004
Time: 7:15pm
Location: Melfort
Objects: 1
Witnesses: 1


Report received via phone:

I received a call from a witness that he had been outside in his
yard lastnight at around 7:15pm, when he happened to look up at
the Moon. A few clouds had sort of positioned themselves before
it. The witness was marvelling at how fast the clouds were
travelling across the path of the Moon.

He noticed a star-like object shining brightly in the 11 o'clock
position in the sky, not far from the Moon. His attention was
almost going to shift when suddenly the light took off to the
east and disappeared behind the clouds. The witness says he
waited to see if the light would reappear on the other side but
it never did.

He also noted that during this observation, the clouds
travelling over the path of the Moon suddenly stopped moving.
Only briefly. It was as if everything was just suspended for a
moment and he had never seen that happen before.

Thank you to the witness.

---

Object Captured On Photo Leaves Twin Trails

On the evening of Friday August 20, 2004 in Saskatoon Sk. this
photo was taken of something that was cruising the sky very high
above Saskatoon. This was no hot air, or weather ballon, nor was
it any kind of jet. It was higher, and flying a little bit
faster than a jet. It was going overhead around 8:20 P.M. and
there were a few clouds in the air. I have never seen anything
like this before, but I would like to see it again. Or if
somebody can give a credible explanation of what this might be,
I am all ears.

[Photo can be viewed at http://www.nwsurc.com/ssr-04-14.htm ]

Thank you to the person who referred this report and thank you
to the witness.

Barb's note: Witness was contacted. The following photo was
analyzed today and the results revealed this to be a genuine
sphere. Spheres just like this one, have been photographed by
other witnesses and those results have also revealed what seems
to be black dense portholes with a contrail behind it. It is as
though the object were trying to simulate a jet's appearance - a
perfect "cloak" for broad daylight.

[Analysed photo, courtesy of Linda Moore can be viewed at:

 http://www.nwsurc.com/ssr-04-14.htm ]

Other spheres have been sighted over Saskatoon skies this year.

Here are just a few:

1) Sphere Photo

http://www.nwsurc.com/gallery1.htm

and story to photo

http://www.ufoinfo.com/sightings/canada/040628.shtml

2) August 6, 2004 report of bright white sphere:

http://www.ufoinfo.com/sightings/canada/040806a.shtml

3) October 30, 2004 report of yellow sphere changing its appearance:

http://www.nwsurc.com/ssr-04-05.htm

A special thanks to Linda Moore who has done a fantastic job at
enhancing these images!

---

Rings With Coloured Lights Throughout


Date: November 19, 2004
Time: evening
Location: Delisle
Objects: 6
Witnesses: 1


Report received via phone:

I received a call from a witness living in Delisle tonight.
Apparently, he had been seeing rings with twinkling coloured
lights in the night skies on and off, for the past couple of
months.

He described the lights as being "larger than the stars" and as
predominant as the "North Star".

The witness was standing outside as he gave a description to me.
At that particular moment, a light was located approximately 35
degrees Northeast, with 4 in the North and one other predominant
towards the West.

The witness said he could see the colours blue and red and they
were twinkling all the time. He even said that if he observed
these lights through his binoculars, the colours would bleed
together.

The lights have a ring around them and then there were other
lights within the ring, he said.

When I asked if he had noticed any movement, he told me that
after a period of time, they would sort of shift their position
a little.

Thank you to the witness.


Barb's note: The lack of movement seemed to suggest the lights
were stars. Observing a sky chart, it appears the witness may
have been observing the constellation Taurus in the Northwest,
Auriga in the North, and Lyra, predominant in the West.

To look at a star through binoculars, only distorts the image.
That's why the witness said "the colours would bleed together."

Please note that all reports are important. Even if we discover
the objects are stars or planes, etc. In instances such as
these, an answer can be given almost immediately after receiving
the report.

I would also like to thank Brian Vike of HBCCUFO for confirming
this report with me.


Barb Campbell - NWSURC
Box 263
Maidstone SK S0M 1M0
Ph:(306)893-4009
Northwest Saskatchewan UFO Research Center (NWSURC)
E-mail: contactus.nul
E-mail: sighting.nul
Web: http://www.nwsurc.com
NWSURC Forum: http://nwsurc.conforums3.com/
Member of UFORA Research Alliance







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   Nov > Nov 25

                    Breaking Five Sightings In Houston BC

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO Research <hbccufo.nul>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 20:35:07 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 07:34:07 -0500
Subject: Breaking Five Sightings In Houston BC


Breaking News In Houston, British Columbia Five Sightings

The skies over Houston, B.C. seem to have come alive as 5
objects have been reported. All this has taken place tonight,
November 24, 2004. My wife and I had a close friend down for the
evening and we also saw some of the strange goings on. A full
report coming quickly.

Still watching the skies tonight.


Brian
HBCC UFO Research








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   Nov > Nov 25

                     Ray Bradbury 'We're the Alien Life'

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 07:39:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 07:39:46 -0500
Subject: Ray Bradbury 'We're the Alien Life'




Source: The Fox News Channel - USA

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,139393,00.html

11-23-04

Ray Bradbury: 'We're the Alien Life'
By Catherine Donaldson-Evans
FOX News

NEW YORK =97 It might surprise you to know that legendary science
fiction and fantasy writer Ray Bradbury (search), who wrote
about traveling to Mars decades before NASA's Spirit rover got
there in the past year, thinks you're an alien.

Don't worry. The rest of us are too, according to Bradbury, who
spoke to FOX News' Neil Cavuto on Your World Tuesday. In other
words, we'll be the foreign beings exploring and eventually
settling on other, untamed planets, just like we did here on
Earth.

"We're the alien life," Bradbury, now 84, told FOX News. "Mars
is empty. It's only waiting for us =97 it's a threshold for future
generations. The future is vast, and we will become the
Martians."

Bradbury thinks the dwindling interest in space travel needs to
be rejuvenated by sending astronauts back to the moon.

"We should never have left the moon," he said. "We should go
back now. It should be the base for going back to Mars."

Bradbury said man's first landing on the moon's surface was
magical, an event that united the planet.

"The most wonderful night was the night we landed on the moon,"
Bradbury said. "The whole world celebrated. We were doing
something for the world =97 something peaceful. Instead of
destroying, we were building."

Cavuto asked Bradbury to respond to criticism that space travel
is too expensive an endeavor to pursue, especially in an age
plagued by terrorism.

"Well we're spending a billion dollars a day on armaments,"
Bradbury replied, referring to the U.S.-led war in Iraq. "All
we'd have to do is take that billion a day from armaments and
build rockets. Armaments do nothing for the future -- they
protect us, yes, but we have to have more than protection. We
have to have hope for the future. Space travel is the answer to
that."

Earlier this year, FOXNews.com interviewed Bradbury shortly
after NASA's six-wheeled robot, the Spirit rover (search),
landed on Mars and snapped breathtaking photographs of the
barren Red Planet.

-Interactive: Ray Bradbury, In His Own Words

Asked about his reaction to the rover's images of the Red
Planet, Bradbury said: "Well, the 12-year-old boy in me jumped
up and down and yelled. That's how I felt."

He told FOXNews.com that he'd been dreaming of traveling to Mars
since he was 8, and predicted humans would live there someday,
with the first ones going up about 50 years from now.

"We're going to become the Martians when we land there," he
said. "When we explore and build communities, we become the
Martians. That's a wonderful destiny for all of us ... Mars is
empty now. Five hundred years from now, it'll be full of
people."

But Bradbury is frustrated with the current progress of the U.S.
space program, saying it's been flagging for years after a
tremendous period of growth.

"We've let too much time go by," he told FOXNews.com. "We've
been busy with war instead of being busy with peace. And that's
what space travel is all about. It's all about peace and
exploration and wonder and beauty."

Bradbury said on "Your World" that more international
competition in space travel could help rekindle interest in our
program in the United States. No matter how it happens, he wants
it to become a priority again because he believes traveling to
other planets will help perpetuate the human race.

"This will guarantee the immortality of mankind," he told FOX
News Tuesday.

Bradbury has been one of the most influential, prolific and
respected contemporary writers of science fiction and fantasy.
In addition to "The Martian Chronicles" (search), published in
1950, Bradbury has written more than 500 creative works,
including the novels "Fahrenheit 451" (1953) and "Something
Wicked This Way Comes" (1962), along with hundreds of short
stories, among them "Zero Hour" (1947) and "Rocket Summer"
(1950). Many of his tales have been turned into films.

His newest book is titled "Bradbury Stories," a collection of
100 short stories written over 60 years.


[UFO UpDates thanks Stuart Miller for the lead]







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   Nov > Nov 25

                   New Mysteries For Interlaken Theme Park

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 07:49:45 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 07:49:45 -0500
Subject: New Mysteries For Interlaken Theme Park




Source: Swiss Info

http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/swissinfo.html?siteSect=3D108&sid=3D5345629

11-25-04,
=09

New Mysteries For Interlaken Theme Park
Dale Bechtel in Interlaken

Best-selling Swiss author Erich von Daniken has enlisted a group
of creationists, pseudo-scientists and ufologists to revive
interest in his Mystery Park.

The speakers took part in the World Mystery Forum that coincided
with the opening of a new exhibition, "Unsolved Mysteries", at
the Interlaken theme park.

"I wanted to create a place where scientists and laymen =96 as
long as they are reasonable and not crackpots =96 can come to
inform the public about their discoveries even if they don't fit
into the scientific model," von Daniken told swissinfo.

Von Daniken is perhaps the world's best-selling pseudo-
scientist, having written several popular books, including
Chariots Of The Gods, about unexplained phenomena.

He says the mysteries, which form the basis of his theme park,
could be evidence of man's prehistoric contact with
extraterrestrials.

The scientists and laymen were invited to expound their theories
on crop circles, the use of electricity in ancient Egypt and
visitations from the Sirius star system.

UFOs

Speakers included a lecturer from an American institute that
aims to have scientific evidence for the biblical Creation, and
a Swiss who has written a book on UFO sightings by the Swiss air
force.

The forum coincided with the start of the Unsolved Mysteries
exhibition, which showcases more than 300 objects of unexplained
origin and runs until March 7.

Visitors are asked leading questions such as: "Did seven-metre
high giants exist in the dinosaur era?" and "Have we been
visited by astronauts from distant galaxies?"

But the biggest question mark concerns the financial health of
the park since ticket sales began flagging about a year ago.

The opening of the park in the spring of 2003 was accompanied by
unprecedented media coverage, which helped draw thousands of
visitors each day during the first few months.

Success?

Von Daniken's project seemed destined to become a commercial =96
if not critical =96 success.

But management has now been forced to downgrade its forecast to
a minimum of 270,000 visitors by the end of the second full year
=96 a considerable drop from the 440,000 paying customers who came
in the first 12 months.

Von Daniken told swissinfo that the park was still financially
sound and that plans for new exhibits were going ahead.

"Of course, we will present new mysteries. We've also been
preparing another big exhibition on climate [change]," he said.

"I was in Egypt about six months ago filming another mystery
with a crew in a subterranean tunnel in Sakhara - pyramids near
Cairo."

New shows

He said this would be one of the highlights next year, along
with the climate exhibition.

"We have the money and we will produce new shows," he insisted.
"We will be innovative."

The 69-year-old writer still speaks about his theories with a
fiery passion, nearly 40 years after his first book, Chariots of
the Gods, hit the stands.

He told swissinfo about his most recent visit to Turkey where he
visited subterranean cities.

"Some of them have been known for 30 years but new discoveries
have been made," he explained.

"There are now 38 subterranean cities and some of them are
connected to each other.

"I was walking underground for seven kilometres and I asked
myself, 'who did it and what for?' Because there is nothing down
there. No bones or treasures. Nothing."

"It will be one of the new mysteries in the Mystery Park."

---

Audio & Video files at site

[UFO UpDates thanks Stuart Miller for the lead]









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   Nov > Nov 25

                            Marfa Lights Article

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 07:56:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 07:56:59 -0500
Subject: Marfa Lights Article




Source: MSNBC News

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6390119/

11-24-04


In Texas, Bright Lights, Small City

Mysterious lights in the desert have baffled scientists=97and
delighted tourists=97for more than a century

By Zofia Smardz


The sun was gone, the sky getting inky. The wind had started to
whip. (And even in the Texas desert, the winter wind can be
cold.) I hunkered deeper into my jacket and jiggled for warmth.
Behind me, my 16-year-old son loped restlessly back and forth,
lupine, waiting. Suddenly a long lanky arm thrust past my face.
"There's one!" he cried, pointing at the horizon. "And over
there!" his younger brother echoed a moment later.

Off in the distance, about a quarter-mile away, a bright,
starlike light glimmered into view just above the horizon,
followed quickly by a second one. As the first flickered out, a
third took its place, materializing out of nowhere. "Ooo,
another one!" I squealed, and again, as yet another twinkled
momentarily above the other two. All at once, they disappeared
together, as if an invisible hand had snuffed them out.

At my cries, the boys instantly dropped all airs of excitement.
"You don't have to say 'Ooo' every time, Mom," they muttered,
dripping with teenage sarcasm, and slid their eyes furtively
left and right, though there was no one else much around.

That was a mercy for the boys, as it spared them any humiliation
at maternal vocals. And it was a treat for all of us to have the
viewing station pretty much to ourselves. But it was a shame, I
thought, for all the people who weren't there, because on this
January night, the Marfa lights were putting on a spectacular
display. As we gawked, they blinked on and off, shifted
position, appeared high in the sky one moment, hugged the
horizon the next.

This time out, the lights were livelier than the first time we'd
seen them six months before=97at least it seemed so to me=97and much
closer to the descriptions I'd read of them. Still, my skeptical
husband couldn't help quipping: "I think the local chamber of
commerce just pays a few guys to go out there and stand around
with some really big flashlights."

An ongoing mystery

The Marfa lights=97spontaneous bursts of illumination that
materialize, year-round, on clear nights over the Chihuahuan
Desert in west Texas=97are a bona-fide unexplained natural
phenomenon. They've defied scientific rationalization for more
than a century. Are they swamp gases? Bent light? Electrostatic
discharges? Signal lights from alien spacecraft? Nobody knows
where they come from or why they appear when and where they do.
Oh, and they have their debunkers, who claim they're nothing
more than the headlights of cars driving down the Chinati
Mountains. Right.

Bottom line: They've stumped physicists and photographers and
engineers, some of the best minds of the nation, for years.

I just love it when that happens.

In the remote, remarkable desert-mountain region of far west
Texas, a wedge of country three hours south of El Paso and 1 1/2
hours north of Big Bend National Park and the Mexican border,
the Marfa lights are just about the premier tourist attraction
around. That is, of course, if you're looking to attract
tourists, which doesn't seem to be that high on the agenda of
the folks who live here. They seem fairly content to poke along
from day to day in the midst of some of the most spectacular
scenery in the continental United States, greeting interlopers
politely, warmly, but incuriously. They don't push anything on
you, and they don't try to market themselves.

Mostly, in fact, they talk about how little there is to do here.
"Well, we're not the big city," a staffer at my son's boarding
school in Fort Davis, Tex., mused modestly on our first trip a
year ago, helping us consider sightseeing possibilities. He gave
us a short list=97historic Fort Davis, the pre- and post-Civil War
U.S. Army post after which the town of Fort Davis is named; the
McDonald Observatory high on a peak in the Davis Mountains; the
scenic loop drive through and around said mountains; the local
history museum in Alpine. Then after a pause: "Oh, yeah, and I
guess there's always the Marfa lights."

A town lost in time

They're called the Marfa lights after the nearest town, a low-
lying little burg of 2,424 that supposedly got its name, in
turn, from a character in Dostoyevsky's Brothers Karamazov,
(that being the book the railroad executive's wife, who
suggested the moniker, was reading when she and her husband
passed through this railway watering stop in the late 1800s).
Marfa can make a few other claims to fame. It has one of the
most beautiful courthouses in Texas, it was the location of the
1956 Elizabeth Taylor-Rock Hudson-James Dean movie "Giant," and
it's home to the Chinati Foundation, a celebrated museum of
contemporary art begun on an old military base by the late
sculptor Donald Judd two decades ago.

Along with mile-high Fort Davis (pop. approximately 1,000) and
the appropriately mountainous Alpine (the "big city," with a
population of about 6,000), Marfa forms an equilateral triangle
enclosing a swath of desert terrain out of which rise majestic
volcanic mountain peaks, many higher than 6,000 feet. It's an
arid, otherwordly beauty=97like the landscape of the moon, or
Mars, maybe, but for the scrubby grasses and bushes, yucca and
cactus that stipple the flats and the mountainsides, and the
cottonwoods that hug the creek banks. There's sky=97blue as lapis
on glorious days or roiling with thunderheads on stormy
ones=97every way you turn. Desert though it is, the climate's
actually a draw; in the old days, wealthy merchants and
entrepreneurs from Dallas and Houston traveled to the Davis
Mountains to put up at the Limpia Hotel and enjoy the dry air
and pleasant breezes. Yes, the temperatures can reach 110
degrees in the shade, but as you've no doubt heard, when it's
this dry, you don't feel it.

What you do feel is the haunting nature of the place, the way it
launches you back to another time. A frontier time, when people
led hardscrabble lives and braved the wilderness and the
elements to make a home in an inhospitable place, where water
was scarce and other people scarcer.

The cattle ranchers who staked out vast tracts of scrubland for
their steers had to have what it takes to persevere here. Even
today, a handful of ranchers, descendants of the first settlers,
still control most of the land in and around Fort Davis. At
least that's what the elderly lady minding the desk one day in
the town's curio-filled Overland Trail Museum told me. (A dusty,
unpaved stretch of the local "overland trail," the San Antonio-
El Paso stagecoach road that ferried 19th-century travelers
between the two towns, still runs through the heart of Fort
Davis.) "They decide who gets to move in and who doesn't," she
said conspiratorially, as I leafed through a bin of old,
laminated turn-of-the-20th-century photos. My husband and I were
her only visitors that day. "That's why you don't see a
McDonald's or any chain stores around here," she said. "They
want to keep Main Street looking like it did 100 years ago."

She didn't sound exactly happy about that, but I was. None of us
missed McDonald's. And fast, I'm sorry, just isn't the mode in
these parts. "What's your hurry?" Betty Nunnally, the proprietor
of Starr's Emporium in Fort Davis, chided my menfolk when they
tried to pry me away from her eclectic shop on our most recent
trip. "You're in far west Texas now. You got to slo-o-o-w down."

Seems like the right prescription to me. Fits the spell of this
place. It tickles me that our cell phone doesn't work everywhere
down here, that the Limpia and its sister hostel, the Hotel
Paisano in Marfa, don't have phones in the rooms. I love that
you might see someone riding horseback down the highway, that
you can catch the occasional glint of spur on someone's cowboy
boots around town, that one of the oldest working dude ranches
is around the bend from Fort Davis. I savor the sense of having
stepped into another world, of being in a place that, while
modern enough, is still cut off from the narcissistic, plugged-
in present.

So I'm sure you'll understand my reaction when, after having
read that Marfa's experiencing a yuppie boomlet, I saw a couple
of bikers in full tight-shorted, speed-helmeted racing regalia
working the scenic loop the day we drove it last July. "Where
did you come from?" I screamed. (Don't worry, the car windows
were all up.) "Go away!"

Watching for lights

The Marfa lights have been around since at least 1883, when a
rancher by the name of Robert Reed Ellison supposedly first saw
them shining in the distance as he bedded down in the desert one
night. Ellison assumed they were Indian campfires. Only when he
rode out the next day to the area where he'd spotted them, he
found "Twilight Zone" music - no remains of any campfires.

Today, there's an official viewing area erected by the Texas
Department of Transportation, complete with telescopes and
restrooms. It's a little weird to have someone lay out the red
carpet for what some people think could be UFO landing lights,
but it's nice to be told where to have the best look-see.

Of course, "best" in this case is relative. In fact, it's
downright idiosyncratic. For they say that everyone sees the
Marfa lights differently. You can be standing right next to
someone who's ooh-ing and aah-ing and essentially see...
nothing. That was my experience the first time out: One of the
boys or my husband would point and say "There!" and I'd ask,
"Where?" I didn't see many that time, nor on our most recent
trip this summer, when the lights seemed sluggish and coy.

We can tell the folks back home we done seen the famous Marfa
lights -- not," cracked a woman in a group of Texas Junior
Leaguers who had descended on the viewing area in a chartered
tour bus. I could tell she was disappointed, and I wanted to
say, "Come back in the winter." Because I've got my own theory
of the lights, you see. I think the cold winter air makes them
brighter and friskier, more playful and powerful.

Or maybe it doesn't. Who knows? It's a mystery. And like the
place they haunt, a marvel.

West Texas and the Marfa Lights

GETTING THERE: There aren't any commercial airports in the
desert mountains, so you have to fly to Midland, Tex., then rent
a car to drive two hours into the mountains (the vistas make
every mile worth it once you hit Scenic Highway 17).

WHERE TO STAY: In Fort Davis, the historic Hotel Limpia (on the
town square, 800-662-5517, www.hotellimpia.com) is a charming
throwback to the frontier days of the Old West, with broad
porches, a Victorian lobby, wide corridors and high-ceilinged
rooms and suites. And it's a bargain: Double rooms start at $89
per night, less if booking online. On our last trip, my family
stayed in the hotel's cottage, a delightful 1940s two-bedroom
bungalow with original furnishings nestled in the shadow of
Sleeping Lion Mountain, for $139 a night. The Limpia's sister
hotel in Marfa, the Hotel Paisano (207 N. Highland St., 866-729-
3669, www.hotelpaisano.com), is equally beguiling, in more of a
Southwestern, Spanish-hacienda style. You can ask for the James
Dean room or the Rock Hudson or Elizabeth Taylor suites. Rooms
start at $79 per night.

Alpine offers the historic Holland Hotel (209 W. Holland Ave.,
800-535-8040, www.hollandhotel.net), in the middle of downtown,
with 14 rooms and suites starting at $45 per night double.

WHERE TO EAT: With its old-fashioned soda fountain, the Fort
Davis Drugstore on Main Street is great for breakfast and lunch;
I love the BLTs. If it's Mexican food you crave, head for La
Casita (1102 E. Avenue H) in Alpine. The ambiance isn't much,
but locals say the food is the best north of the border, and I'm
with them. Lunch for four is less than $30.

For dinner, Pop's Grill (Highway 17 just west of Fort Davis)
offers good down-home food at reasonable prices, although
there's no wine, as Jeff Davis County is dry. Dinner for four is
about $60. For a somewhat fancier but still moderately priced
meal, try Jett's Grill at the Hotel Paisano in Marfa, where
dinner with wine runs about $120. For a splurge, the Reata
Restaurant (203 N. Fifth St.) in Alpine serves great steaks;
dinner for four with wine was just under $200. Maiya's (103 N.
Highland Ave.), down the street from the Paisano in Marfa, will
deceive you into thinking you've stumbled into someplace on the
Upper West Side, with its avant-garde menu, chichi decor and New
York (or at least D.C.) prices; dinner with wine came to nearly
$350, including the tip. Good, though.

WHAT TO DO: The largely restored Fort Davis National Historic
Site (432-426-3224, Ext. 20, www.nps.gov/foda) is considered one
of the best remaining examples of a frontier military post. The
McDonald Observatory (17 miles from Fort Davis on Highway 118),
a major astronomical research facility, hosts constellation-
viewing "star parties" three nights a week, as long as the
weather is cloudless. Details: 432-426-3640,
www.as.utexas.edu/mcdonald/mcdonald.html.

In Marfa, the Chinati Foundation (1 Calvery Row, 432-729-4362,
www.chinati.org; $10) is a contemporary art museum that sculptor
Donald Judd founded in the late 1970s. Dedicated to permanent
installations of large-scale works, it features art by Judd,
Claes Oldenburg, John Chamberlain and others. The Scenic Loop, a
75-mile drive through the Davis Mountains, is full of surprises,
from Sawtooth Mountain to the cattle that just might be taking a
snooze in the middle of the road.

INFORMATION: Fort Davis Chamber of Commerce, 800-524-3015,
www.fortdavis.com; Marfa Chamber of Commerce, 800-650-9696,
www.marfacc.com; Alpine Chamber of Commerce, 800-561-3735,
www.alpinetexas.com.

c. 2004 The Washington Post Company

[UFO UpDates thanks Stuart Miller for the lead]





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   Nov > Nov 25

                  Found Devices Linked To Mysterious Booms

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 08:02:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 08:02:37 -0500
Subject: Found Devices Linked To Mysterious Booms




Source: Richmond Times-Dispatch - Virginia

http://www.timesdispatch.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=RTD/MGArticle/RTD_BasicA
rticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031779312113

11-23-04


Found Devices Linked To Mysterious Booms

Investigators trying to unravel the cause of mysterious North
Side explosion noises said this afternoon they found several
"pressure-producing devices" that could have been used to create
the booming heard over the past month.

Richmond Fire Capt. Mike Martin told reporters gathered on a
corner near Laburnum Avenue and Hermitage Road, a few blocks
west of a roped-off area, that several of the devices had been
found, above ground and below ground.

Police had the neighborhood cordoned during the morning,
blocking eastbound traffic on Laburnum and north-south traffic
from Laburnum to Wilmington Avenue on at least two side streets.
Police said the neighborhood was safe and there was no need for
evacuations.

"We found some items that are of a suspicious nature," Martin
said. "We have found evidence. It is a crime scene," he added,
referring to the areas where the objects were found.

He described the objects found as "sort of an explosive device,"
but "more of a pressure-producing device." He said the objects
are designed to create sound, and "damage if you are close to
it." He said it was possible but generally unlikely that the
items could be considered lethal.

They were found at "several locations in the general area,"
Martin said, but declined to give more specifics on the
locations.

Martin stressed that all investigative avenues are being kept
open, but that the devices found are being considered "some type
of contributing factor" to the explosion noises that have rocked
the neighborhood.

The pressure-producing devices, he said, would not create "a
crater," but rather a "large amount of noise." Asked to describe
the devices, Martin said they could be as small as four to five
inches in diameter, or up to a foot. He said he knew of no known
commercial applications for such equipment.


He indicated the items could have been home-made, but declined
to answer further questions about their nature, citing the
police investigation.

Martin said authorities had a meeting Monday night at which
numerous possible causes were brought up, and discussion at that
meeting led to the search this morning for the pressure devices.


[UFO UpDates thanks Stuart Miller for the lead]








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Nov > Nov 25

                    Bigelow Space Module Flight Gets Okay

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 08:12:07 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 08:12:07 -0500
Subject: Bigelow Space Module Flight Gets Okay




Source: Space.Com

http://space.com/news/bigelow_update_041124.html

11-24-04


Bigelow Space Module Flight Gets Government Okay
By Leonard David
Senior Space Writer

The U.S. Government has given payload approval to Bigelow
Aerospace permitting the entrepreneurial firm to launch its
inflatable space module technology.

Bigelow Aerospace of North Las Vegas, Nevada has blueprinted a
step-by-step program to explore the use of inflatable Earth
orbiting modules. Those modules would not only support made-in-
microgravity product development, but serve as the technology
foundation for eventual space tourist housing and use of similar
structures on the Moon and Mars.

The Federal Aviation Administration's (FAA) Associate
Administrator for Commercial Space Transportation (AST) has
given Bigelow Aerospace payload approval for flying its Genesis
inflatable module - one-third scale hardware crafted to lead to
a much larger space habitat dubbed the Nautilus.

Extensive review

The FAA-AST approval letter of November 17 regarding the Bigelow
Aerospace scale demonstration module comes after an extensive
review of the concept, including its construction, materials
used, shielding technology, the in-space inflation process to be
utilized, as well as the deorbiting of the test module.

"Obtaining the FAA-AST payload approval for Genesis is a first
of its kind," explained Mike Gold, corporate counsel for Bigelow
Aerospace in Washington, D.C. "This will go a long way to
establishing a good precedent for the inflatables," he told
SPACE.com.

"This is a first step=85but an important first step along the road
that Bigelow Aerospace is traveling," Gold added. To obtain the
"favorable payload determination" by the FAA-AST, a review
process took place over roughly an eight-month period, he said.

Gold said that the approval letter is not "rocket specific" and
carries no deadline date. The letter indicates, he said, that if
a launch operator applies to the FAA for license to launch a
vehicle carrying the Genesis payload, the favorable payload
determination will be incorporated in the review of the license
application.

Nascent space firms

"It's one small step for the FAA-AST, one giant leap for Bigelow
Aerospace," Gold said. He saluted the FAA-AST for helping
nascent space firms move forward and for taking a larger look at
the role entrepreneurs and new technologies can play in space.

Bigelow Aerospace is headed by Robert Bigelow, owner of the
Budget Suites of America Hotel Chain, among a roster of other
business ventures.

The current plan is to launch the Genesis payload on the private
booster, the Falcon V, a derivative of the still-to-fly Falcon 1
being built by Space Exploration Technologies Corporation
(SpaceX) in El Segundo, California.

The Genesis prototype hardware would be onboard the Falcon V's
maiden flight that is targeted for a November 2005 time frame.

Bigelow Aerospace also plans to loft a Genesis Pathfinder module
in April 2006, using a silo-launched Dnepr booster under
contract with ISC Kosmotras, a Russian and Ukrainian rocket-for-
hire company.

America's Space Prize: international contestants not precluded

Earlier this month, Bigelow Aerospace took the wraps off the $50
million "America's Space Prize". That contest, with a January
10, 2010 deadline, is designed to stimulate the building of
orbital, crew-carrying spacecraft that have the ability to dock
with a Bigelow Aerospace inflatable space habitat.

"We've gotten lots of interest from a variety of sources," Gold
said. "It has run the spectrum from small entrepreneurial groups
to interest from larger traditional aerospace companies."

There have been some gripes from would-be contestants not based
in the United States.

In the primary rules for the competition it states that the
contestant must be domiciled in the United States of America.
Furthermore, the contestant must have its principal place of
business in the U.S.

For one, if a spacecraft system is developed domestically in the
United States, a benefit is not dealing with International
Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) and export control issues
that can be "quite difficult and quite problematic," Gold
explained.

However, Gold added, those two prize rules should not be
construed as some kind of blanket prohibition on international
participation. "I would imagine that an international entity
would be able to easily establish a subsidiary of some kind that
would meet those two requirements."

"America's Space Prize in no way precludes international
participation. That's just not the case," Gold said.


[UFO UpDates thanks Stuart Miller for the lead]








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   Nov > Nov 25

                      Space Case Article On Mac Tonnies

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 08:20:07 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 08:20:07 -0500
Subject: Space Case Article On Mac Tonnies




Source: The Pitch - Kansas City, MO

http://www.pitch.com/issues/2004-11-25/news/strip.html

11-25-04


Space Case

Attention, aliens: Please return our science-fiction writer

Tony Ortega
tony.ortega.nul

The Strip wants to report an alien abduction.

No, this meat patty didn't see strange lights in the sky or
witness the kidnapping of a human being by space-hopping, big-
eyed, bulbous-headed, anal-probe-wielding extraterrestrials.

We didn't actually see the subject of the abduction get carried
off. But we're sure it happened all the same. And here's the
irrefutable evidence.

Subject name: Mac Tonnies

Age: 29

Last known residence: Apartment just off the Plaza

Hometown: Independence, Missouri

Background: Starts writing science-fiction in elementary school.
By the time he graduates from William Chrisman High School in
1994, he's completed enough short stories to fill a small book.
Illumined Black is published by a small press a couple of years
later when Tonnies is a sophomore in college. The young man's
future looks bright. The book carries positive cover blurbs from
established writers, such as cyberpunk pioneer Bruce Sterling,
and Booklist calls Tonnies a "surprisingly mature craftsman."

As Tonnies continues his college career, bouncing around before
finishing with a bachelor's degree at Ottawa University, he
continues to produce short stories but doesn't get many of them
published. Tonnies takes to the emerging world of Internet
writing like he was born for it.

His "Posthuman Blues" becomes one of Kansas City's best blogs,
filled with well-written, intelligent takes on offbeat news
items and humorous rants from a left-leaning political
perspective.

Evidence of Abduction: Tonnies returns to book publishing this
year not with another volume of short stories or a novel but
with After the Martian Apocalypse: Extraterrestrial Artifacts
and the Case for Mars Exploration.

The book, yet another in the cottage industry of speculative
musings about the "Face on Mars," is published by Paraview
Pocket Books, a 2-year-old paranormal-studies imprint of the
publishing giant Simon and Schuster. Paraview started as a
publish-on-demand house, a sort of Internet-based version of the
vanity press model of publishing. But when Simon and Schuster
turns Paraview into a more traditional publishing imprint in
2002, Tonnies is one of the beneficiaries. His book suddenly
gets a major press run and a big promotional push.

It's the latest in an ever-expanding genre that speculates about
signs of intelligent life on the planet Mars. Quick recap: After
a 1976 Viking image showed something on the surface of the
planet that had an uncanny likeness to a human face, NASA
examined the formation with its orbiting Mars Global Surveyor in
1998. Up close, the formation looked merely like a slightly
unusual mesa, and the Face on Mars controversy appeared to have
been firmly debunked. But "researchers," who by then had
invested years of their lives trying to prove the Face was an
artificial structure, spent several more years staring at pixels
of NASA images and claimed that the Face was still a face -- and
they demanded even closer inspection by scientists at NASA and
the Jet Propulsion Laboratory at California Institute of
Technology, whom they accused of intentionally trying to cover
up evidence.

Tonnies' book on the subject is smarter than most, proposing
startling histories for the Face while debunking the more
outlandish notions of out-there Mars prophets such as the
infamous Richard Hoagland. But the book's squishy nature -- it's
nearly impossible to nail down any outright statement of fact by
Tonnies that can be checked against a verifiable outside source
-- can be explained only by alien interference, this tenderloin
figures.

After all, what rational Show-Me Missourian would make
assumptions that a hill on Mars "might" betray signs of
artifice, which in turn "could" indicate ruins of an ancient
civilization, which "maybe" could have been wiped out by some
kind of ancient planetary cataclysm?

All that from a few grainy spacecraft photos.

This meat patty is especially intrigued by Tonnies' explanation
that much of his theorizing rested on the work of an actual
astronomer, a man named Tom Van Flandern, and his "exploded-
planet hypothesis." According to Van Flandern, Mars is actually
a former moon that orbited a much larger planet that exploded
hundreds of millions of years ago, its fragments forming the
asteroid belt that fills the space between the orbits of Mars
and Jupiter.

Tonnies speculates that this explosion wiped out the ancient
civilization that carved the Face. He also calls Van Flandern's
theory "frightening and cinematic" and "colorful," though he
gently suggests that it conflicts with "prevailing
interpretations."

But we figure space aliens prevented Tonnies from mentioning the
small detail that Van Flandern is actually a classic crank and
that his theory -- which forms the backbone of Tonnies' book --
 is dismissed by professional astronomers.

That's one of the things we learned in a conversation with Brian
Marsden, the prominent Harvard astronomer who arbitrates the
naming of new objects in the solar system. When night-sky
observers argue over who gets credit for discovering a new
comet, for example, it's Marsden who makes the call. Marsden
tells the Strip he knows Van Flandern well -- the two were
classmates at Yale in the 1960s. But when Van Flandern went to
the Naval Observatory after graduation, he developed "whacky
ideas," Marsden says, about gravitation and solar system
evolution -- ideas that other scientists don't take seriously.
(Van Flandern left the Naval Observatory in 1983.) Marsden
hinted that there was an odd story behind Van Flandern's turn
away from mainstream science, so we called up the man himself,
who today operates something he calls Meta Research.

Van Flandern, a pleasant 64-year-old guy, entertained this meat
patty with tales about having had several losses of faith after
graduating from college that led him to doubt mainstream
science. He turned against the medical establishment, for
example, when doctors couldn't treat his wife's schizophrenia
but Van Flandern (he says) cured her with megadoses of vitamins.
And Van Flandern regaled this rump roast with tales of how he
experimented with high doses not only on himself but also on his
kids, with hilarious results. He recalled that concerned school
officials sent his children home because they had broken out
with rashes after dad had dosed them so high with vitamins. Ah,
that's funny stuff.

We naturally also discussed his bizarre model of the solar
system's evolution; it involves a superspinning sun snapping off
pieces to produce planet pairs that later spontaneously
exploded, and other fun ideas. But we had to ask: If he's right
and everyone else is so wrong, how come there aren't busts of
him in the world's science museums? Persecution, he answered.
Anyone with an idea that runs contrary to the hallowed theories
of mainstream science gets hounded out of the fold.

"But you still have to go for it," he told this side of beef.
"I'm going to remain intellectually honest to the experimental
results, regardless of where it takes me."

We decided to ask University of Missouri-Kansas City
astrophysicist and cool guy Keith Ashman about Van Flandern's
theories. He didn't seem very impressed.

"This spinning sun idea was blown out of the water years ago.
The angular momentum doesn't add up," Ashman told us over beers
at Mike's Tavern a few weeks ago. (For a profile of the guitar-
playing Brit, see Kendrick Blackwood's "Big Bang," December 11,
2003.) Like other astronomers, Ashman is annoyed that he has to
fend off such nonscientific stuff, but we were buying the
alcohol, so he put up with it. "This is the frustrating part,"
he said. "We really do understand how the solar system formed.
We don't need shit blowing up." And Ashman didn't think much of
Van Flandern's complaints about persecution, either. "All of
them have stories of being suppressed -- but it's when they
stopped doing science," he says.

And Ashman didn't think much of Tonnies' speculation about
cover-ups at NASA and the JPL, both of which the iconoclastic
Ashman has his own experience with. "The vast majority of us are
anti-authoritarian, fiercely independent people who simply don't
do what we're told," Ashman said. Would scientists really sit on
information proving that ancient civilizations left artifacts on
Mars? "All of these cats know that anyone who got that would win
a Nobel, which is going for $1.3 million at the moment," Ashman
noted. "If any of them at JPL had ideas that an ancient
civilization left artifacts on Mars -- first of all, they'd be
down to the L.A. Times blabbing about it, and second, they'd be
putting in to be the principal investigator on the next mission
to Mars."

New evidence: When this chuck steak reported some of Ashman's
comments to the talented young "Tonnies," we suspect it was
actually his alien replacement who sent back this reply:

"I'm not claiming Mars was killed by an exploding planet. I
merely present the possibility and play with it, intellectually,
to see where it goes."

The Strip can only pray that eventually, whatever sick space
travelers have taken away the real Tonnies will some day return
him in one piece -- or at least with his frontal lobe restored.

Tony Ortega talks about this week's Pitch with KRBZ 96.5's Lazlo
after 4 p.m. Wednesday.


[UFO UpDates thanks Stuart Miller for the lead]








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Nov > Nov 25

                       Researcher: 'We Are Not Alone'

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 08:24:28 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 08:24:28 -0500
Subject: Researcher: 'We Are Not Alone'




Source: Mount Shasta News - Mount Shasta, California

http://www.mtshastanews.com/articles/2004/11/24/news/11notalone.txt

11-24-04


Researcher: 'We Are Not Alone'
By Michael Le Guellec

Stanton Friedman, nuclear physicist and lecturer on the topic of
UFOs, presented his arguments last Wednesday that some UFOs are
real.

During his lecture at the Kenneth Ford Theatre in Weed,
sponsored by the College of the Siskiyous Associated Student
Body, Friedman took a scientific approach by presenting facts
and information from government files along with countless
interviews he's conducted with civilians and military personnel
since the early 1950s.

Friedman presented his "anatomy of a cover-up" and provided a
step-by-step trail of government issued paperwork which he says
shows the absurdity of copious lies and deceit divulged to the
public to cover-up the existence of UFOs.

Friedman reviewed five major scientific studies with mountains
of evidence to support his conclusion of alien visits to Earth,
including the Roswell Incident, where the wreckage of two flying
saucers and the recovery of several alien bodies from New Mexico
were documented in a classified memo released by the US
government in 1950.

Having worked under security while doing nuclear research for 14
years, Friedman said he knows how easy it is for governments to
keep secrets.

As the only civilian investigator on the Roswell incident,
Friedman said he became aware of huge "black budgets" of UFO
technology related research by top military officials and
scientist, including the CIA and Operation Majestic 12, which
was created for the purpose of researching UFO's.

After 25 years of UFO research and many interviews, Friedman
said he visited 20 archives and read the original Operation
Majestic Five documents as well as Project Blue Book Special
Report 14, which gives detailed accounts of physical evidence
found since 1947.

"The challenge for us all is to recognize that, while our future
is in space, we are not alone," Friedman said. "Though we are
clearly a primitive society whose major activity is tribal
warfare, I hope we can qualify for admission to the 'Cosmic
Kindergarten."

Friedman noted the ignorance of data and the lack of research
for the "noisy negatives" who he said aren't interested in facts
and whose minds are made up.

"They are simply unaware of the real, non-tabloid evidence,"
said Friedman.

Friedman said that some UFOs are real, and he focuses on the
three percent of real sightings that are well documented.

Friedman has lectured in every state in America and 12 countries
around the world at the request of researchers and professional
groups and has been called to provide testimony to Congressional
hearings and appeared twice at the request of the United
Nations.

He's answered over 40,000 questions regarding UFOs and has
debated regarding the topic at Oxford University.

After providing his argument and evidence on UFOs on public
television, a poll revealed that 92 percent of the first 100,000
people who participated believed we are being visited by alien
beings.

Although Friedman takes a clear-cut stand that we are being
visited by UFOs, he does not believe the legendary Lemurians of
the majestic Mt. Shasta are among them.

Friedman's lecture at COS was an ASB function organized by Brian
Ramsey and ASB president and student trustee Nick Brown.

"Our goal is to have more interesting and unique ASB functions
held in the future," said Brown.


[UFO UpDates thanks Stuart Miller for the lead]








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Nov > Nov 25

                         Re: Gemini 11 UFO - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 03:08:59 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 16:04:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Gemini 11 UFO - Sparks


>Subj: UFO UpDate: Re: Gemini 11 UFO - Smith
>Date: 11/24/2004 9:13:13 AM Pacific Standard Time
>From: ufoupdates.nul
>Sent from the Internet (Details)

>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:07:53 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
>Subject: Re: Gemini 11 UFO

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 18:46:50 EST
>>Subject: Re: Gemini 11 UFO

>>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 10:40:53 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
>>>Subject: Gemini 11 UFO

>>>I understand that you found some other satellite/orbital debris
>>>that matched the GT-11 observation. What object was it?

>So you think the object was not the Proton, as your earlier work
>with Bruce Maccabee concluded it could not be, but rather some
>sort of debris dumped from the Gemini 11 to which we have no
>orbital elements.

Orbital elements for space debris from the Gemini would have
tracking errors much larger than the tiny differences with the
Gemini's orbit, and would be of no help whatsoever. Lots of
debris could not be tracked by NORAD in the 60's and lots that
could were not given orbital elements as it was regarded as a
waste of precious space tracking resources

>I think you are correct.

I hate being dragged into this discussion when I don't have
complete files and have no time to adequately devote to it. My
last posting had an error, due to haste, which lessens the fit I
am proposing. The Gemini 11's orbital period was actually 90.5
minutes and it was the Proton 3 that had the 88.6-min period.
(NORAD had tried to explain the astronaut sighting as the Soviet
satellite Proton 3, which was actually a total impossibility, as
Proton 3 was behind the earth, about 3,400 miles away, and was
in the wrong direction, behind the Gemini astronauts not in
front of them where they saw and photographed the "bogey." More
on this below and an explanation for the NORAD error.)

That means the garbage dump at 24h2m Ground Elapsed Time
corresponds to an osculating return to the Gemini 2-1/2 orbits
later at about 27h48m elapsed time, about 5 mins later than the
"bogey" sighting but within possible timing error (spacecraft
went into earth shadow at about 27h48m which would be the latest
possible time).

However, that is considering only the lateral motion given to
the garbage bags (and the spacewalk ELSS backpack ejected at
25h37m). Lateral motion introduces a slight change in orbital
inclination angle to the equator of the earth. But the garbage
bags were outgassed when the hatch was opened, apparently
upward. This would enlarge the orbits of the debris above the
Gemini's orbit very slightly, in addition to some lateral motion
that is inevitable. Enlargement of the debris orbits introduces
two tangency points just before and after each 1/2-orbit average
intersection interval where the debris orbits actually cross the
Gemini. How much before and after depends on some complex
modeling of the different possibilities, forward and backward
velocity as well as upward and lateral. But this helps further
open up the possibility that it was the ELSS backpack (larger
and more visible than the garbage bags, and an explanation that
astronaut Conrad himself suggested from orbit).


>Is this the same object/satellite you made in mail exchanges
>with Oberg?

From: James Oberg (jamesoberg.nul)
Subject: Re: Gemini 11 and Proton 3
Newsgroups: sci.space.history
Date: 2002-11-28 21:00:56 PST

"...During the mail exchanges, Brad Sparks indicated to me that
he had found a close approach with another US satellite...."

This was a misunderstanding. I told Oberg in the 70's that I was
trying to identify some possible candidate space objects and had
some ideas on how to do so, not that I had positively identified
any. I had found a few possibilities but the problem was that I
attempted to measure motion blur in the photographs so I might
be able to establish an estimate for the object's inclination.
But I found no apparent motion blur. The "bogey" was not moving
too fast relative to the Gemini. This enhances the debris
possibility. The other space objects then became irrelevant.

As I recall there is less than 10% possible motion blur (none
seen but that is a rough upper limit for motion blur being too
small to see; the <10% is of the object's dimensions). As a
crude estimate that might correspond to, say, less than 1.5
degs/sec angular velocity for a reasonable photograph exposure
setting in the bright sunlight. The garbage bags and ELSS
backpack were likely to have a relative crossing velocity of on
the order of 1 ft/sec. At a distance of 100 ft this would make
an angular velocity of only 0.6 degs/sec, not enough to produce
a noticeable motion blur (the angular size on the photos, about
0.5 deg sets the distance at 100 ft for 1/2 foot objects, the
ELSS was about 4 ft and would thus have been at about 400 ft, so
the angular velocity would be 4x less than even the previous
number).

NORAD came up with its Proton 3 explanation about a day after
the astronauts' sighting and there are no details, such as time
of encounter, only a distance (one report says 450 km another
says 401 km as I recall; Condon Report and a Lloyd Mallan
article). As I mentioned earlier the Proton 3 was actually about
3,400 miles behind the earth, as I was the first to discover
back in 1977 using NORAD and NASA orbital data. The Gemini
capsule was over the South Atlantic roughly midway between Rio
de Janeiro and southern Africa, heading east and looking
eastward. The Proton was behind them, off the southern tip of
South America south of the Falklands, heading northeast.

But about 6 orbits _later_ than the Gemini's "bogey" encounter
the Proton 3 would have had a much closer approach, to within
several hundred miles, at around 36h40m elapsed time into the
mission, over the South Pacific south of Tahiti. This may be the
encounter NORAD calculated, although still not quite as close as
claimed, and still behind the Gemini capsule not in front of it.
This was almost 9 hours after the "bogey" which had been radioed
to ground within 10 minutes so there is no possibility
whatsoever that the Proton 3 was actually the "bogey."

There are others who have software that can calculate and
graphically display these orbits, I do not. I am doing these
calculations in my head looking at some old data and I do not
want to spend any more time on this.

Let me remind everyone the Gemini 11 "bogey" has ZERO
Strangeness as far as UFO cases go. It did not suddenly jet out
into deep space or maneuver or zap the astronauts with a
paralyzing ray beam. Let's get real here. Its only element of
unexplainability is bureaucratic and not an unexplainability of
UFO behavior or construction, just the omission of NORAD to be
aware of a satellite encounter and its error in attributing it
to an impossibly located non-visible satellite, none of which
omissions even apply to Gemini's own space debris for reasons
I've already explained.


Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

Brad Sparks








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   Nov > Nov 25

                     Russian Ufological Archive For Sale

From: Nikolay Subbotin - RUFORS <info.nul>
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 14:14:23 +0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 16:12:21 -0500
Subject: Russian Ufological Archive For Sale


Hi!

Over the past 15 years I've collected a great electronic UFO
archive. It includes many exclusive materials.

I also have secret Russian documents from government and
military ufology research programs "Setka-AN", "Setka-MO",
"Raduga", "Gorixont" and others (over 1500 pages).

I have UFO-videos from Russia from 1999-2004 (some objects
were captured from 200-400 metres!).

I have databases of Russian UFO cases, audio-interviews with
researchers and other materials.

It's a great base for creating TV-programs, books, sites about
UFO research in Russia. If you're interested in buying these
materials, or want to co-create a TV-project - write me.


Regards,

Nikolay Subbotin
RUFORS








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                      Alien Abductions & Coffee Enemas

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 16:16:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 16:16:20 -0500
Subject: Alien Abductions & Coffee Enemas




Source: The New Haven Advocate - Connecticut

http://newhavenadvocate.com/gbase/Lifestyle/content?oid=oid:91687

11-25-04

Alien Abductions and Coffee Enemas
Or, the problem with being open-minded

by M.D and Steven Novella

I listened patiently as the UFO enthusiast explained how humans
were transplanted to the earth from another world by our alien
forebears.

"Then how do you explain the fact that humans share 98% of our
DNA with chimpanzees, and a genetic code will all life on
earth?" I asked.

"Well, I think you have to keep an open mind," was her starry-
eyed response.

People who believe odd things - that coffee enemas can cure
cancer, that the Loch Ness Monster exists, that art on the
dollar bill can explain secret conspiracies - are always telling
us to "keep an open mind."

To that, I reply: "Keep an open mind, sure - but not so open
that your brains fall out." In the endless sparring between
skeptics and believers, the "keep an open mind" rejoinder is the
favorite weapon in the believers' arsenal. It is their all-
purpose tool. But what does it really mean to be open-minded,
and is it the skeptics or the believers who are truly closed-
minded?

Having an open mind is a curious virtue: Everyone agrees that
open-mindedness is indeed a virtuous state, but it's most often
praised by those being decidedly closed-minded. Also, the most
open-minded people are those whom you would least suspect as
paragons of this particular virtue, skeptics. And those most
lacking open-mindedness are those most likely to admonish others
for not being so - true believers.

Let me explain.

Having an open mind means you don't dismiss claims to truth out
of hand. You analyze first. When you analyze a claim, you
consider all the relevant evidence and examine all the logic
involved, in a fair and unbiased manner, then grant tentative
acceptance or rejection. If new arguments or new evidence come
up, then you revise your opinion. Being open means that you
apply this standard fairly to all claims. Being open-minded does
not mean believing every claim, no matter how improbable -
 that's being gullible, not open.

This process of fair analysis, based upon logic and evidence,
leading to tentative conclusions, which are open to revision, is
part of science. It is also the very soul of true
open- mindedness.

By contrast, true believers adhere to a desired claim regardless
of evidence or logic. No argument is persuasive enough, and no
evidence (or lack thereof) is compelling enough to nudge them
from the perch of their belief. They are closed to the
possibility that Bigfoot might be a delusion, that crop-circles
are pranks, that coffee enemas don't cure cancer - that their
cherished belief might be wrong. Yet it is such believers who
most frequently claim the moral high ground of open-mindedness,
then condemn unbelievers for being closed-minded. They wish
others to accept their claims either without examining the logic
and evidence, or despite refutation from such examination.

The "open-minded" police often use the label of "closed-minded"
as a personal attack to dismiss the arguments of those who dare
to examine their claims. You do not believe I was abducted by
aliens, they argue, because you are closed-minded. (Could it be
because they lack credibility or any evidence to back up the
claim? Or because the claim is inherently ridiculous?) To them,
being abducted by aliens is an article of faith, much as
religious believers take certain beliefs on faith.

That's fine. People are entitled to their faith. It's an
important freedom, guaranteed in the Constitution. But personal
faith cannot be used to justify a scientific claim about the
factual state of nature. Scientific claims must be public, open,
and transparent - they cannot be based upon secret knowledge,
special talents, or unquestioned virtues. If you think aliens
have visited the planet, you must be prepared to offer evidence,
not just accuse other people of being closed-minded for not
believing you.

Science is also a cumulative process. At this point in history
we happen to be sitting on centuries of painstakingly
accumulated scientific knowledge. It would be both hubris and
folly to ignore all that has gone before. So while keeping an
open mind to new ideas and claims, it is to our advantage to
view such claims through the filter of established knowledge.
Believers would have us view new claims in an intellectual
vacuum, as if all claims were inherently equal.

So let me turn the tables and humbly ask you, dear reader, to be
truly open-minded. Adhere to the advice of T.H. Huxley, who
wrote, "A wise man apportions his belief to the evidence." Keep
your brains tucked safely inside your skulls. Be open but not
gullible. And remember, it is better to think than to believe.










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                 Re: Thailand's Yee Peng Festival - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 05:43:13 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 16:18:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Thailand's Yee Peng Festival - Lehmberg


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 13:39:43 -0600
>Subject: Thailand's Yee Peng Festival

>I came across this video, and thought to pass it along.

>http://www.cbsnews.com/media/2004/11/23/video657282.rm

>Quite an impressive sight, and while definitely IFOs, I wonder
>if any UFO sighting reports will result. Some of those things
>looked eerily familiar. <g>

>I also wonder what it would look like from space, if it were
>visible at all.

>A bountiful holiday season to you all,


On the whole this wholly captivating video _did_ provide an
excellent excuse, for those wishing it, to discount the
conclusions of scientific investigations from dozens of bravely
self-sacrificing men and women, the thousands of individuals
(including myself) who see unidentifiable objects decidedly
unlike birds, bolides, or blimps in their day and nighttime
skies, and the millions who rightfully believe that is unlikely
that we are alone in the universe in any sense, regardless.

Apart from that... it was an inspiring video on other levels.
Like those uniform blimps were a representation of an
intelligent individual desire to "slip the surly bonds of Earth"
and drift outwards to make contact with what we intellectualize
_must_ be out there?


alienview.nul  -:=A6:-
   www.AlienView.net








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   Nov > Nov 25

                Re: Space Case Article On Mac Tonnies - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 08:30:54 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 16:21:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Space Case Article On Mac Tonnies - King


>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers ->
>Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 08:20:07 -0500
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Space Case Article On Mac Tonnies


>Source: The Pitch - Kansas City, MO

>http://www.pitch.com/issues/2004-11-25/news/strip.html

>11-25-04

>Space Case

<snip>

>this meat patty

<snip>

>this tenderloin

<snip>

>This meat patty

<snip>

>this rump roast

<snip>

>this side of beef.

<snip>

>this chuck steak

Man,

What is this guy's fetish with meat? Might make sense if he was
from Nebraska (Omaha Steaks), but his incessant reference to
himself as a cut of beef makes it really hard to
take...seriously.

Is it supposed to be funny? Is he trying to cop a Hunter
Thompson-esque Gonzo persona?

I get that he wants his old Tonnies back, but the meat stuff
just annoys the hell out of me.

While his 'medium' isn't particularly '*well done', I hope it is
'rare'. <g>


Kyle








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                        Re: Serious Starchild Problem

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 09:47:01 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 16:24:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Serious Starchild Problem


>From: Lloyd Pye <mailing_list.nul-uk.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 18:04:45 -0500
>Subject: Serious Starchild Problem

>First, I want to wish all Americans, Happy Thanksgiving! To the
>rest of you, we all have something to be thankful for this year.

>As you know if you've been to the new website:

>www.starchild-uk.com

>to see the slide show there, we have discovered two unknown,
>previously unimagined aspects of the Starchild's bone: (1) what
>seems to be highly durable fibers threaded throughout; and (2)
>what seems to be dessicated marrow, or some other reddish
>residue, in the cancellous holes that contained marrow when it
>was alive. These are both certain to be historic finds,
>regardless of whether they do or don't mean the Starchild is at
>least partially of alien origin.

While it is always painful to find an area of research
under-funded, I am not surprised that Lloyd finds himself in a
pickle.

As the skulls in question are far more likely to be genetic
deformities than proof of alien intervention, what would all the
testing show? Unusual genetics? Strange fibrous tissue? Marrow
where marrow should be?

I suspect that if the $40,000 were raised and the tests
performed, we'd still be left with a genetic mutation...and no
closer to any proof of what caused the mutation.

Beside this paradox, one has to wonder how Lloyd got this far.
If his mail listers aren't willing to pony up the bucks for his
tests, isn't that the measure of the perceived validity of his
research? I doubt that his research only appeals to poor people.

When you depend on the whim of your readers to fund your
research, and cannot convince the scientific community to donate
or subsidize it, you run the risk of ending up in this
predicament.

Is it possible that his readers don't really want to know the
truth, but prefer to leave the mystery intact, so that the
discussion can continue without troublesome scientific facts
getting in the way?

Having seen some fairly extreme human genetic deformities,
including 3-fingered hands, enormous eyes, bulbous heads,
missing nose, slit for mouth, any of these could be pointed to
as evidence of alien involvement.

In the end, Lloyd Pye has spent 6 years trying to prove that
these deformities are of alien-assisted origin, while the tests
he desires would never be able to prove it. The tests might show
some genetic anomaly, or inclusion of unexpected tissue...just
as one would observe in a congenital deformity.

Of course, lost in all this angst over the reluctance of readers
to send money is the fact that these artifacts represent living
people. They had moms and dads, and their brief existence on
this planet is now fodder for a fund-raising exercise. These
unfortunate children deserve better, and they have provided for
Lloyd far beyond what their meager lifestyles provided while
they were living.

Sometimes, it is best to leave the dead behind and work to the
future.

I say let the Star-child fall from the heavens, and take its
rightful place alongside other strange genetic experiments of
nature, like gigantism, polydactyly, etc.

Lloyd will never be able to prove an extraterrestrial
connection. Not until we develop a test for just such a
connection.


Kyle







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   Nov > Nov 25

                         UFO UpDates Read In Russia

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 08:27:26 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 16:26:56 -0500
Subject: UFO UpDates Read In Russia


Dear readers:

While scouring the net, I chanced upon my name on this Russian
website. UFO UpDates is mentioned as the source:

http://www.try.md/view.php?gid=3D4&iid=3D1125

I quote the Russian text in case anyone thinks I was misquoted
or not:


19 ??????? ?. ?. ????????? ???????????? ??????,
????????? ???? ?????? ?????????? ??? ????? ????
(larry.nul) ????????? ? ?????????
???????? =ABUFO UpDates=BB ? ????? ??? ???????:

=93? ???? ???? ????????? ??????? ? ????????? ??????-????,
???? ??????????. ? ??? ????? ? ???? ?????? ??????,
?????? ???????. ????? ??? ???? ????????? ????? ? ?????,
????????????? ???????? ? ???? ????? ??? 60 ??. ??
????????? ??????. ??????? ? ??????? ????????? ??? ????
?????. ????? ??? ????????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??????
(50 ??.) ??? ????? ????, ?, ????????? ??? ???? ??
???????????, ? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? ??????
3-4 ?????. "


It looks like ??????? becomes October in our alphabet, and that
they still draw the letter 'R' backwards.

My name becomes '????? ????', and I hope they spelled it
correctly. (If I saw ????? ???? on a restaurant menu, I
wouldn't know it from soy beans.)

If more Russians are reading here, I wish to add that my lemon
tree has grown very nicely. One small branch is so heavy with
fruit that it almost touches the ground!

Someday, I will buy a simple digital camera.


Best wishes

????? ???? =3D Larry Hatch









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                            Re: Shostak - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 16:09:36 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 16:30:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Shostak - Sparks


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:59:36 -0500
>Subject: Re: Shostack

>>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 19:41:31 -0000
>>Subject: Re: Shostack

>>>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 15:38:12 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Shostack

<snip>

>>>I've seen and heard about enough government crimes in my short
>>>63 years to put _zero_ faith in reports that SETI hasn't picked
>>>up any alien signals yet. It may be true, but there is an equal
>>>chance they _have_ and haven't told the public about such finds
>>>yet. SETI-at-Home? Could be they only post data they know is
>>>'clean'.

>>Are you saying that not only does the US government suppress
>>info on crashed saucers, but that it has evidence of alien
>>signals via SETI and is keeping this evidence under wraps?

>I don't know if SETI has evidence of alien signals or not. But
>the endless stonewalling by government on UFO matters indicates
>to me that _if_ they have such evidence, they aren't going to
>let the public know about it.

>To have SETI come up empty handed is an _ideal_ way to quash the
>silly idea that UFOs are ET craft.

SETI has _not_ "come up empty handed" and has found more than
150 unidentified signals, most one-time only, but recently a
signal called SHGb02+14a has been found in the Arecibo radio
telescope recordings on three occasions. If there was a vast
conspiracy to do what you claim then why hasn't this news about
150 unidentified signals this latest mystery signal been
"quashed"???

The "silly idea" is your notion that the SETI project is a plot
by the government to cover up UFO's. That's the silliest thing
I've heard in a long time.







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   Nov > Nov 25

                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 47

From: John Hayes <John.nul>
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 21:23:25 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 16:34:29 -0500
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 47


My apology for the late delivery of UFO Roundup.
This is due to recurring migraine headaches - John
=====================================

Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan.nul>
==========================

      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 9, Number 47
November 24, 2004
Editor: Joseph Trainor

E-mail: Masinaigan.nul
Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/


LARGE TRIANGULAR UFOs
VISIT INDIA'S CITIES

      Hard on the heels of the mysterious MiG-21 crash in
the desert west of Bikaner came two sightings of very
large triangular UFOs in India.
      On Friday, November 5, 2004, employees at the Bhadha
Atomic Research Centre (BARC) in Trombay, a suburb of
Mumbai, India's largest city, saw a bright light beyond
the windows of the plant's Cirrus 40-megawatt heavy water
reactor building.  When they went outdoors, into the
parking lot, they saw "a large triangular UFO hovering
silently" overhead.
      The UFO then flew slowly over the plant grounds and
hovered above the building containing BARC's Dhruva 100-
megawatt heavy water reactor.  The object remained in view
"for several minutes, making no noise," before it
retreated in a northwesterly direction.
      "We think it may have been heading back to the
Himalayas," Krishnari Bai Dharapurnanda, UFO Roundup
correspondent in India, reported.
      The BARC plant was built in 1957 by Prime Minister
Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru and named in honor of Homi Bhadha,
India's leading nuclear scientist.  Canada provided the
Cirrus reactor in 1960, and India installed the Dhruva
100-megawatt reactor in 1985.
      That same Friday, "Swarooj R., a 21-year-old student
at the Bangalore Medical College, woke up early in the
morning at 5 a.m.  After brushing his teeth, he sat in
front of his computer and read some (email) messages sent
to him."
      "After doing this, he went outside onto his terrace
at around 5:45 a.m. to water some plants.  While doing so,
he looked up in the sky to see if he could see some stars,
but it was a cloudy morning."
      "But, in the corner of his eye, he noticed some
movement.  He noticed a large V-shaped or boomerang-shaped
object in the sky, which he observed for 10 seconds.  It
was black with circular lights emanating from vents
underneath.  When it was first spotted, it was about 60
degrees above the western horizon."
      "Swarooj said the craft looked a lot like the crafts
he'd seen on the Discovery and History Channels.  He also
described it as 'like a B-2 Stealth bomber, but with
yellow lights underneath and about the size of a Boeing
747 and moving at around the same speed as an average
jet.'"
      "Swarooj adds that until then he was always sceptical
of UFOs and, even though he knows that what he was was out
of the ordinary, he still is not sure if he should believe
in alien beings."
      He knows that "what he saw was too big to be a B-2
bomber and also wonders what a B-2 bomber would be doing
over Bangalore."
      Mumbai (formerly Bombay--J.T.) is on the Arabian Sea
700 kilometers (420 miles) south-southwest of New Delhi,
India's capital.  Bangalore is 500 kilometers (300 miles)
southeast of Mumbai.  (Many thanks to Prashant Solomon of
UFO India, Daniel Wilson and Krishnari Bai Dharapurnanda
for these news stories.)


LUMINOUS UFO SIGHTED BY
TEN IN SOISSONS, FRANCE

      "About ten people sighted an unusual phenomenon in
the sky" near the French sity of Soissons on Sunday,
November 7, 2004.
      "Two of them gave evidence: Micheline Blanchard lives
in Venizel with her daughter, Romane.  Mme. Blanchard
reported, 'I was in my garden, collecting my linen (from
the clothesline--J.T.).  It was between 7 p.m. and 7:30
p.m.  My daughter told me to look in the sky.  We saw
several big incandescent fragments, red-orange, going from
west to east.  There was one very big one ahead and
smaller ones behind.  I thought at once about a plane
falling to pieces while flying.  The sky was clear.  It
was a dark night in my garden.  I had time to study it for
a few seconds, and it was less furtive than a shooting
star, and I had time to think about what it could be.  I
did not see any trail.'"
      "'It followed a curve downward on the arc of a
circle.  It seemed very low and large.  Romane and I, who
have a scientific mind--we are quite sure it was a
meteorite.  The phenomenon disappeared out of our field of
vision and seemed to fall toward Acy or the Rochette
industrial district.'"
      "Benoit Verdun of Longpont was driving on the Route
Nationale 2 (RN-2) in the direction of Laon.  Near Laffaux
he saw the phenomenon.  'It was dark.  It was about 7 p.m.
when I saw several brilliant points going towards
Soissons.  The speed did not match that of a jetliner but
was more like a jet interceptor.  It was like a squadron
of four to five red or orange points, very close to each
other, which followed the same speed and trajectory and
flew horizontal to the RN-2.  That lasted for several
seconds, before ending in a sheaf of fireworks, slightly
downward.'"
      "Jean-Paul Tassin, president of the Soissons
Astronomical Association, refuted the idea of a satellite
leaving its orbit.  'They are followed by radar, and we
would have been warned.'"
      "The brilliant effects of the early evening could
have been made by planes at high altitude which would
receive the last beams of the sun and which could reflect
them."
      Soissons is a city in France's department (state) of
Aisne, located 110 kilometers (66 miles) northeast of
Paris.  (See the Agence France Presse news story for
November 8, 2004, "Mystery about incandescent objects in
the sky."  Merci beaucoup a Robert Fischer pour cette
article de journal.)


MOTORISTS SEE GIGANTIC
UFO NEAR CARDIFF, WALES

      On Thursday, October 14, 2004, at 10 p.m., Mark A.
was driving about four miles (7 kilometers) west of
Cardiff, South Wales, UK when he had a most unusual
encounter.
      "I was driving along a fairly busy road heading west
just outside of Cardiff city," Mark reported, "Something
caught my eye, so I pulled over.  I also noticed that
other people, about 15 other drivers, had done the same
and were now outside their vehicles looking up at what I
just couldn't believe.  At about 3,000 feet (900 meters)
was the largest flying object that I have ever seen.
Something like, say, the new Airbus A380, not yet in
service, or a Boeing 747, that would have been dwarfed by
it.  The crazy thing was--absolute silence!"
      "We stood dumbstruck as this thing moved slowly
through the air almost directly above us.  There was also
complete silence from everyone observing this amazing
event from the roadside.  Other drivers were now stopping,
and people were getting out of their cars to take a look."
      "I am a pilot and have a fairly good idea of how
motions of normal aircraft can 'trick' people into seeing
a UFO.  This was in no way normal.  There is an
international airport located about four miles (7
kilometers) west of the sighting site.  My next move was
to telephone the Control tower at the airport and ask if
anything unusual had just taken off.  Air traffic control
said that a (Boeing) 737 had just departed a few minutes
ago.  This object was too big and too silent to be a 737.
I then asked if they had anything on radar. 'Nothing,'
they said."
      Mark then called the Cardiff RAF base.  "Again,
'nothing.'  This thing was almost the size of a very large
container ship.  It didn't have any visible wings or any
other way of showing how it could stay in the air.  If I
saw it on the ground, I would bet money that it was not
able to fly."
      "The weather was good with ten miles' (16
kilometers') visibility.  There were light clouds at 500
feet (150 meters) and very light winds.  I watched this
object keep the same speed and height (altitude) and then
it passed behind some mountains to the northeast of
Cardiff."
      Two days later, on Saturday, October 16, 2004, Mark
added, "I saw a friend and told him about the sighting.
He was almost speechless when I started to describe the
same thing that he had seen moments after me.  He had been
out with a girl friend and was driving home when she
spotted the object from her passenger seat.  They both got
out of the car, along with the other road users who had
stopped their cars.  Almost a reconstruction of what had
happened five minutes ago (earlier, with Mark--J.T.), only
it was happening now to the northeast of Cardiff city.
His account is identical to mine in the size and height of
the object, speed (about 50 knots--M.A.).  I would love to
know what I and everyone else that night had seen."
(Email Form Report)


LUMINOUS SPHERICAL UFO
VISITS THE CANARY ISLANDS

      On Monday, November 1, 2004, at 6:20 p.m., eyewitness
O.U., an Italian citizen residing in the Canary Islands
(owned by Spain--J.T.), was interrupted by his secretary,
who pleaded with him to come quickly to the window.
      "My name is O.U., and I live and work on Lanzarote
(easternmost island in the group--J.T.)" the witness
reported, "Only a few minutes ago, my secretary stepped
out of the office and saw a strange sphere with a luminous
orange surface" flying above the buildings of downtown
Arrecife "and called me outside to see it."
      "The event lasted less than one minute.  Another
object in the sky, with a long orange tail, followed in an
even higher trajectory.  An airliner in flames? I
wondered.  I don't think so, and nothing was said on TV. A
meteorite?  It could be, but the trajectory of the object
flying above that fast does not lend credit to this
theory."
      The Canary Islands (Islas Canarinas en espanol--J.T.)
are in the Atlantic Ocean about 200 kilometers (120 miles)
west of Morocco.  (Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales y
Frederico Dezi de UFO Italia para esta historia.)


"DARK DAY" CAUSES UPROAR
IN SHENYANG, CHINA

      "Darkness at noon" caused an uproar among thousands
of people living in China's Liaoning province on Thursday,
November 11, 2004.
      "Day turned to night across Shenyang when a freak
cloud formation 8,000 meters (26,400 feet) deep (thick)
blanketed the northeastern city."
      "For over half an hour, noon was as black as
midnight.  Cars, buses and lorries (trucks in the USA--
J.T.)" turned on their headlights and "helped somewhat to
break up the darkness."
      "Tremendous lightning flashes accompanied the
phenomenon."
      "Convergence of two cloud fronts formed the 8,000-
meter-thick cloud overcast."
      "With the sky and sun effectively blotted out,
visibility was reduced to near zero, according to an
expert from the provincial capital's meteorological
bureau."
      "The marvelous spectacle was also sighted in many
other areas of Liaoning province and lasted for over half
an hour in some places, he said."
      "The meterologist warned that temperatures are likely
to plummet in the coming days."  (See China Daily for
November 12, 2004, "Noon turns to night as cloud blocks
out sun."  Many thanks to Michael Strainic for this
newspaper article.)


TRIANGULAR UFO SEEN IN
SANTA ANA, CALIFORNIA

      On Friday, November 12, 2004, at 6:30 a.m.,
eyewitness John Burns reported, "I was heading toward
Shelton Street in Santa Ana, California (population
337,977), trying to get to work when I saw a bright light
in the sky.  It was over the Santa Ana Zoo.  I was trying
to get to the freeway.  It was really bright, brighter
than a star.  It just caught my attention."
      "When I got close to it, there was a police
helicopter in front of it, just sitting there observing
it.  It's strange to see something like that this early in
the morning.  I want to know what the object was."
      "When I got closer to it, it was as if it looked like
a triangle-shaped object.  Can someone please help me?  If
I'd had my digital camera, I could have gotten a picture
of it, but unfortunately I didn't have it."
      Santa Ana is on Highway 241 about 20 miles (32
kilometers) southeast of Los Angeles.  (Email Form Report)


TWO UFOs SPOTTED OVER
SCOTTSDALE, ARIZONA

      On Monday, November 8, 2004, at 1 a.m., eyewitness
Joseph Campbell reported, "I was enjoying the night air as
I usually do every night from my patio, which faces the
southeast" in Scottsdale, Arizona (population 202,705).
"It's in the middle of a rather dark golf course.  I was
just sitting there and saw two very huge and very bright
lights appear in the distance, which did not move at all."
      "All of a sudden, another light appeared, which
formed a perfect triangle (with the other two--J.T.).  I
watched and, after ten minutes, all three disappeared
simultaneously.  They were the biggest and brightest
lights I have ever seen in the sky.  I am 44 years old and
enjoyed that for all of the 15 seconds or so that I
watched it.  Thanks for taking my comments."
      Scottsdale is on Arizona Highway 101 about 20 miles
(32 kilometers) northeast of Phoenix.  (Email Form Report)


SPHERICAL UFO SEEN IN
WEST PORTSMOUTH, OHIO

      On Thursday, November 11, 2004, at 9:54 p.m.,
eyewitness Steven Biars reported, "I attend evening
classes at my local college, and, as I was driving home
from class, I saw a bright light that appeared out of
nowhere in the sky" over West Portsmouth, Ohio (population
3,458).
      "It started out the size of a golf ball, appearing in
the northeast (as if there was an illuminated golf ball
right outside my vehicle--S.B.).  It was clearly much
larger than a star."
      "The object originally swelled to several times its
initial size, as if going from the size of a grape to the
size of a grapefruit.  Immediately after it swelled, it
disappeared completely."
      "A friend of mine saw several weird red lights in the
sky a few days later.  There have definitely been some
strange things happening in the sky here."
      "I estimate that the object was 700 to 800 feet (210
to 240 meters) up in the sky and 150 feet (45 meters)
wide.  I'm basing the altitude estimate on model rockets
that I've launched.  The object swelled and disappeared
over the course of roughly ten seconds.  It was almost
like an explosion of white light."
      West Portsmouth is on Ohio Route 73, just down the
Ohio River from Huntington, West Virginia.  (Email Form
Report)


GUNNING FOR THE "BLACK
HELICOPTER CROWD"

      "Since Sept. 11 (2001), the nation's attention has
been focused on possible threats from Islamic terrorists.
But homegrown terrorists have been steadily plotting and
carrying out attacks in unrelated incidents across the
nation, according to federal authorities and two
organizations that monitor hate groups."
      "None of the incidents over the past few years
matched the devastation of 9/11 or even the 1995 bombing
of the Oklahoma City federal building, which killed 168
and remains the deadliest act of terrorism against the
nation by a U.S. citizen."
      "But some of the alleged domestic terrorists who have
been arrested had ambitious plans.  The people and groups
range from white supremacists, anti-government types and
militia members to eco-terrorists and people who hate
corporations.  They include violent anti-abortionists and
black and brown nationalists who envision a separate state
for blacks and Latinos.  And they have been busy."
      "'Not a lot of attention is being paid to this,
because everybody is concerned about the guy in the
turban.  But there are still plenty of angry, Midwestern
white guys out there,' says U.S. Marshals Service chief
inspector Geoff Shank."
      "Shank, who is based in the Chicago area, says the
concerns about domestic terrorism range from anti-abortion
extremists who threaten to attack clinics and doctors to
some violent biker gangs that may be involved in organized
crime.  And the FBI said in June (2004) that eco-
terrorism--acts of violence, sabotage or property damage
motivated by concern for animals or the environment--was
the nation's top domestic terrorism threat."
      "Shank, whose unit mainly searches for fugitives,
including some wanted on domestic terrorism charges, led
the manhunt for Clayton Lee Waagner of Kennerdell, Pa.
Waagner was convicted in December (2003) of mailing
hundreds of threat letters containing bogus anthrax to
abortion clinics in 24 states.  During his trial in
Philadelphia, prosecutors documented Waagner's ties to the
Army of God, an extremist group that believes violence
against abortion providers is an acceptable way to end
abortion."
      "'There's been a very, very heavy focus nationally on
foreign terrorism since 9/11,' says Mark Potok of the
Southern Poverty Law Center in Montgomery, Ala., which has
tracked hate groups since 1971.  'The reality is that,
meanwhile, domestic terrorism has hummed along at quite a
steady clip.  It...still
poses a serious threat.'"
      "Among the incidents since 9/11:"
      "Last month (October 2004) in Tennessee, the FBI
arrested a man who agents say hated the federal (USA)
government and was attempting to acquire chemical weapons
and explosives to blow up a government building.
Demetrius 'Van' Crocker, 39, of McKenzie, Tenn.
(population 5,295) pleaded not guilty November 5 (2004).
His attorney, public defender Stephen Shankman, did not
return calls."
      "In May (2004), William Krar, 63, of Noonday, Texas
was sentenced to more than 11 years in prison after he
stockpiled enough sodium cyanide to kill everyone inside a
30,000-square-foot building.  Krar, described by federal
prosecutors, as a white supremacist also had nine machine
guns, 67 sticks of explosive and more than 100,000 rounds
of ammunition.  Investigators and the federal prosecutor
said they didn't know what Krar intended to with the
potentially deadly chemicals."
      "Krar's common-law wife, Judith Bruey, 55, pleaded
guilty to conspiracy to possess illegal weapons and was
sentenced to nearly five years."
      "During the 1990s, anti-government groups sprang up
all over the country, according to the Southern Poverty
Law Center and the Anti-Defamation League, which was
founded in 1913 to combat anti-Semitism and now monitors
hate groups.  Many formed militias to prepare for large-
scale resistance to the government, which the groups
blamed for the Randy Weaver siege at Ruby Ridge, Idaho, in
1992 and the Branch Davidian confrontation in Waco, Texas
in 1993."
(Editor's Comment:  Some Americans of the right-wing
persuasion believe that the SPLC and ADL are intelligence
assets of the State of Israel.)
      "Many of these group members believed the federal
government was secretly setting up concentration camps for
dissident Americans and was planning a takeover of the
United States by United Nations troops as part of a 'new
world order.'  Many also said that mysterious black
helicopters were conducting surveillance in the West,
according to the ADL."
      "'The 'black helicopter' crowd is still out there,'
says Wisconsin federal prosecutor Tim O'Shea, referring to
extremists who distrust and abhor the federal government."
      "Potok says the Southern Poverty Law Center
identified 751 hate groups last year, a six percent
increase over the 708 organizations it counted in 2002."
      "Mark Pitcavage, director of fact-finding for the
Anti-Defamation League, says incidents of domestic
terrorism often don't get much media coverage beyond the
local areas where they occur.  He says he was surprised
that the Krar case did not get wider attention.  'This was
the only case in U.S. history where we had a person in the
U.S. building an actual chemical weapon,' he says."
      "He cites two other cases.  In 1997, militia members
gathered in central Texas allaegedly to plan to attack a
military base on Independence Day.  They were arrested the
morning of July 4 (1997) near Fort Hood.  Three years
later, he says, three heavily-armed people described by
federal investigators as anti-government extremists shot
down a California Highway Patrol helicopter near the
California-Nevada border during a standoff with police."
      "Potok, director of the center's Intelligence
Project, which monitors hate groups, says, 'I don't mean
to minimize the work of groups with ties to Al-Qaeda.
Obviously, there's a huge external threat as well.  But,
there's a tendency to want to externalize the threat and
say the people who want to hurt us don't look like us,
don't worship the same god and don't have the same skin
color."
      "Earlier this year, the National District Attorneys
Association, which has about 7,000 members, held a first-
ever conference on domestic terrorism in Washington, D.C.
to help local prosecutors identify potential terrorist
groups."
      "'It was very well received,' says the association's
vice president, Robert Honecker, a prosecutor in Monmouth
County, N.J.  'They were appreciative of getting the
information and the knowledge so they would be prepared
should something happen in their jurisdiction.'"
      "Some of the alleged efforts by domestic terrorists
are chilling."
      "According to an FBI affidavit in the Tennessee case,
Crocker had inquired last spring about where he could
obtain nuclear waste or nuclear materials.  An informant
told the FBI that Crocker, who had 'absolute hatred' for
the government, wanted 'to build a bomb to be detonated at
a government building, particularly a courthouse, either
federal or state.'"
      "In September (2004), according to the affidavit,
Crocker told an undercover FBI agent 'it would be a good
thing if somebody could detonate a weapon of mass
destruction in Washington, D.C.' while both houses of
Congress 'were in session.'  Crocker allegedly told the
agent he admired Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party.  He said
'establishing a concentration camp for Jewish insurance
executives would be a desirable endeavor.'"
      "Crocker later bought what he thought was Sarin nerve
gas and a block of C-4 explosive from the undercover
agent, the affidavit says."
      "Authorities arrested Crocker last month (October
2004, during the FBI sweep--J.T.)  Pitcavage of the Anti-
Defamation League says such arrests thwart possible
attacks and show that U.S. law enforcement is effectively
fighting domestic terrorism."
      "'One of the measures of this is that the number of
people arrested for (plotting) terrorist acts is far
greater than the number of people arrested for carrying
out such attacks.  So we're arresting them before they can
carry out these acts, which is very important.  9/11
raised awareness generally among law enforcement.'"  (See
USA Today for November 15, 2004, "Domestic terrorism: New
trouble at home," page 1A and "Texas man had enough
cyanide to kill everyone in a high school gym," page 2A.)
(Editor's Comment:  It seems obvious to me what the
Israelis are trying to do here.  They hate Jesus Christ
and people who have accepted Jesus Christ as their
personal savior.  They can't do anything about it here in
the USA because of the First Amendment of the Bill of
Rights.  So they try to work around that by declaring
born-again Christians, ufologists, Forteans, paranormal
researchers and anti-New World Order types "terrorists"
and then using newspaper articles like the above to stir
up law enforcement against them.)


PLAGUE OF LOCUSTS
INVADES EGYPT

      "In an echo of the biblical plagues, millions of
locusts swarmed into northern Egypt on Wednesday,"
November 17, 2004, "for the first time in 50 years,
prompting authorities to order emergency pesticide
spraying to protect the region's important agriculture
industry."
      "Clouds of the red insects, up to 2 and 3/4 inches
(6.8 centimeters) long, flitted over Cairo.  Others hopped
around on rooftops.  By evening, the skies were clear."
      "Christian Pantenius, program coordinator of the
United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) in
Egypt, said the swarm was an offshoot of a serious locust
infestation in West Africa that was blown by strong winds
across the Sahara (desert).  He said locusts were also
spotted in Crete and Lebanon."
      "The organization described the insect clouds as a
'medium density swarm of locusts numbering several
million, if not a billion,' covering several square miles.
It also said big locust outbreaks generally last for
several years."
      "Pantenius said it was the first time locusts in such
numbers had hit the region around Cairo since the 1950s.
Small numbers of the ravenous insects were spotted in
Egypt during a locust plague that struck countries from
eastern to western Africa in 1986-1989."
      "He said the current swarm showed no sign of moving
farther south along the agriculturally rich Nile River
valley.  He predicted the swarm would head southeast
toward the Red Sea coast, which is an annual locust
breeding ground from November to March."
      "Locusts, which normally live two to six months, eat
their weight--about 0.07 ounces--in crops every day.  They
can travel as much as 120 miles (200 kilometers) in a day.
'People are very afraid that it may cause damage to
agricultural production, but to what extent the
agricultural sector could be damaged is difficult to say,'
Pantenius said."
      Egypt's "Agriculture Minister Ahmed el-Leithy said
the locusts appeared to pose no serious threat to Egypt's
crops 'because the swarms are continuing to move and are
not fully grown.'"
      "But he said 50 percent pest eradication teams had
been rushed out to spray pesticides in farm areas.
Farmers without pesticides set smoky fires and made loud
noises with machinery in the hopes of keeping locusts away
from their fields."
      "Huge swarms are still present in Mauritania and
Niger.  But the insects have also moved northward in
search of food in the Maghreb region of North Africa."
(See USA Today for November 18, 2004, "Swarms of locusts
descend on Egypt," page 17A.)


HUMANS WERE IN SOUTH
CAROLINA BEFORE THE
LAST ICE AGE

      "Artifacts found in a hillside along the Savannah
River" in Allendale County, South Carolina, "indicate that
modern humans inhabited North America as long as 50,000
years ago, a discovery that challenges long-held theories
on the migration of our ancient ancestors."
      "The find reported Wednesday," November 17, 2004, "by
archaeologist Albert Goodyear of the University of South
Carolina files in the face of the conventional scientific
view that homo sapiens--with the same bone structure and
brain size as today's people--moved into North America
within the past 12,000 years.  Until then, a 23,000-year-
long Ice Age was thought to have blocked travel across
Alaska's Bering Strait."
      "'Fifty thousand years ago is mind-boggling.  It
challenges a lot of theories,' Archaeology magazine's Eric
Powell says.  'All of our models of how humans migrated
will have to be reconsidered if this holds up,' he says."
      "Goodyear and his colleagues have been exploring the
ancient flint quarry in Allendale County, S.C. since 1998,
unearthing a hearth, flint blades and tool chips."
      "The age estimate of the deepest artifacts is based
on measures of radioactive carbon traces found in oak,
conifer, buckeye and other plants buried alongside them."
      "The report, awaiting publication and peer review in
a scientific journal, is certain to be controversial among
archaeologists because it means that the first people
raced across the globe after migrating from Africa 100,000
years ago."
      "North and South America had long been considered the
last continents settled by humans, but the find suggests
Asia was just a rest stop for humanity early on.  Goodyear
says the tools resemble those found in early human sites
in Asia from about the same period."
      "Recent evidence from sites in Chile and Oklahoma
have suggested that modern humans inhabited the Americas
as far back as 30,000 years ago.  They are thought to have
colonized Australia only 60,000 years ago and Europe about
45,000 years ago."
      "'Man is a traveler, an explorer,' Goodyear says, 'In
retrospect, it's almost absurd to insist that people could
never get into North America before the last Ice Age.'"
      "'The question is not the validity of the dates but
what is being dated,' says archaeologist Tom Dillehay of
Vanderbilt University in Nashville (Tennessee).  Skeptics
will likely argue that the simple flint blades are natural
in origin."
      "'At present, I don't think these new dates prove
anything.  It signals to us to keep the window of
opportunity and possibility cautiously open,' Dillehay
says."
      "If proved, the dates still leave open the question
of how people arrived in North America.  A number of
routes are possible:"
      "A land bridge between Siberia and Alaska may have
existed before the last Ice Age."
      "Boats may have brought coastal fishermen island-
hopping across the Bering Strait."
      "Early Australians may have kept going east."
      "The discovery will likely cause archaeologists to
dig deeper at flint sites across the continent, Goodyear
says.  'It may be we haven't found these before because we
haven't been looking.'"
      Commenting on the find, UFO Roundup editor Joseph
Trainor said, "It looks like Col. James Churchward (1850-
1936) has been proven right again."
      "In his 1931 book, The Children of Mu, Churchward
estimated that the first humans had arrived in North
America 50,000 years ago.  Churchward claimed that
explorers from Mu, also known as Lemuria, the lost
continent of the Pacific Ocean, discovered the Americas
around 50,000 B.C.  He wrote, 'The country they discovered
was America, as we call it today, and the particular spot
in North America where they landed was Mexico as we now
know it.  This was more than 50,000 years ago, and it
might have been tens of thousands of years before that.'"
(See USA Today for November 18, 2004, "Discovery puts
humans in S. Carolina 50K years ago," page 4A.  Also The
Children of Mu by James Churchward, Paperback Library, New
York, N.Y., 1931, page 21.)


NEW ENGLAND'S "LITTLE
ICE AGE" OF 1798

      The freak snowstorm that dropped up to 8 inches (20
centimeters) of snow on the New England states of the USA
last week is not without precedent.
      Carolyn Rzepecki, your editor's sister, reported, "We
had 6 inches (15 centimeters) of snow in our backyard" in
Pawtucket, Rhode Island.  "We weren't expecting it at all.
We just went out in the morning, and there it was."
      According to Erin Jordan, meteorologist with KDLH-TV
in Duluth, Minnesota, on November 21 "in 1798 a snowstorm
that lasted for four days moved into New England.  A foot
of snow (12 inches or 30 centimeters) fell in New York
City.  But that was nothing compared to the 3 feet of snow
(36 inches or 90 centimeters) of snow in Maine and New
Hampshire."
      "Some areas were snow-covered until May of the next
year," 1799, leading some New England newspapers to refer
to that winter as "the Little Ice Age."  (See the Duluth,
Minn. News-Tribune for November 21, 2004, "Today's weather
fact," page 6C.)


READER FEEDBACK:

REPTOIDS APPEAR IN LOVECRAFT

      Concerning the feature story in UFO Roundup, Volume
9, Number 46, "1927: The men who dreamed of Reptoids,"
Fortean researcher and Lovecraft scholar T. Peter Park
writes, "And then there's Howard Phillips Lovecraft (1890-
1937), let us not forget.  I wrote about HPL's history of
seeming repeated paranormal experiences in my article,
"H.P. Lovecraft: An Abductee?" in The Anomalist No. 9 for
Winter 2000/2001, pages 82 to 91."
      "HPL, of course, featured many reptoid and batrachian
aliens in many of his tales, most notably, 'The Shadow
over Innsmouth,' 'The Doom that Came to Sarnath' and 'The
Nameless City,' about taking over Robert E. Howard's
prehistoric serpent kingdom of Valusia."


REPTOIDS' FIRST PUBLICATION

      Concerning the same feature story, author W. Michael
Mott writes, "Mr. Trainor, I find the article particularly
interesting."
      "In my treatise, The Deep Dwellers, I pointed out in
great detail the literary contributions of R.E. Howard,
E.R. Burroughs and H.P. Lovecraft in regard to reptoids or
reptilian humanoids (and toad-like beings, as well--
W.M.M.) and their criteria probably being sources or
points from many media streams of thought in ufology and
conspiracy literature.  I also pointed out, however, that
these concepts had already been around for at least a few
thousand years and their presentation was merely an update
of archetypal forms (and probably some other archetypal
forms--W.M.M.) which had been around for some time."
      "The Deep Dwellers was written in 1999 and published
in Web-zines then.  It found publication in magazine form
in Nexus in 2000 and was included with the rest of the
content for Caves, Cauldrons and Concealed Creatures in
late 2000."
      "Looking in (Michael) Barkun's back index at
Amazon.com, I saw multiple mention of (David C.) Icke's
Children of the Matrix, which quotes from Caves, Cauldrons
and Concealed Creatures quite extensively, particularly in
terms of the topic.  However, I find no mention of my book
or the fact that the first referral to these creatures was
made there, at least two years prior to Barkun's
publication, and (obviously) even prior to Icke's Children
of the Matrix, which Barkun used as source material."
(Editor's Note: Mike is referring to Barkun's book, A
Culture of Conspiracy, which was published in 2003 and
which claimed that Robert E. Howard's short story, "The
Shadow Kingdom," published in the August 1929 issue of
Weird Tales, was the source of today's Reptoid reports.)


 From the UFO Files...

2004: PRISONER OF THE
           ALIENS

      Mack White is a Texas-based writer, cartoonist and
investigative journalist.  Recently he had a very strange
experience, which he wrote about in Weird magazine,
published in McAllen, Texas.
      Here it is, in Mack's own words:
      "I woke up and glanced at the clock.  It was nearly
three in the morning.  I had been asleep for about four
hours."
      "This had been my pattern of sleep for the past few
months.  Four hours of sleep, then--bang, wide awake.  It
usually took an hour or two before I could get back to
sleep."
      "I grabbed the remote, turned on the television and
began looking for something to watch--preferably something
that would lull me back to Dreamland.  An old, slow-moving
black-and-white film usually did the trick."
      "Instead, I found myself watching the late Stanley
Kubrick's final film, Eyes Wide Shut."
      "What was I thinking?  I had seen the film twice
before, and knew it was hardly one designed to lull a
person to sleep, let alone produce sweet dreams."
      "As many writers have noted, there are aspects to the
film which uncannily echo the accounts of purported CIA-
mind controlled sex slaves such as Candy Jones, Cathy
O'Brien and Brice Taylor."
      "For instance, as Adam Gorightly notes in his
article, 'An Interpretation of Kubrick's Eyes Wide Shut'
on Konformist.com, the use of masks in the film and the
manner in which the characters inexplicably change
personalities are strongly suggestive of the process of
trauma-based mind-control programming.  Gorightly further
notes that the recurrent rainbow symbolism in the film
seems to be a direct allusion to the way in which images
and themes from The Wizard of Oz are reportedly used as a
programming matrix for mind control victims."
      "Also, the film's key scene--the one in which Tom
Cruise crashes a Masonic-style sex magick ritual--readily
brings to mind the goings-on in Alex Jones' real-life
Bohemian Grove video.  In this surreptitiously recorded
video, world leaders in hooded robes are seen conducting a
mock human sacrifice in front of a giant statue of the
Babylonian child-eating owl-god Moloch."
      "Some have even suggested that Kubrick was murdered
for revealing Illuminati secrets, and that the final cut
of the film may not be the one he would have made had he
lived to finish editing it."
      "Ordinarily, these are things I do not like to think
about in the dead of night.  My day life is full enough of
such preoccupations.  But I thought I would watch the film
just long enough to catch Nicole Kidman's nude scene in
the beginning of the film, then change the channel to
something else."
      "However, I became absorbed in the film and watched
it almost in its entirety before falling back to sleep."
      "And the dream I had was far from sweet."
      "I found myself in a top-secret, underground, multi-
leveled, futuristic complex of some kind (Area 51?--J.T.),
walking past rows of white-coated technicians busily
working at strangely-shaped computer terminals."
      "Though there is no such scene in the film, it felt
like a continuation of Eyes Wide Shut.  Also, I was no
longer me.  I was in the mind of the Tom Cruise character.
And I had the sense that I was emerging from a trance."
      "I looked over the shoulder of one of the technicians
and read what was displayed on the computer screen.  It
was my file."
      Try to imagine Mack's growing horror, as he stares at
the screen.  First a face-front photo of himself appears,
then a side-profile photo--and he doesn't remember posing
for those photos.  Then up comes the fine print with all
the details of his life--full name, address, names of
parents and grandparents, educational background, work
history, medical history--you name it.
      "As I read the file, I realized with mounting horror
that I was being programmed as a Manchurian Candidate, to
perform some kind of dirty work for the New World Order."
      "I picked up a table and threw it over the railing
onto a lower level of the complex.  Then I started
throwing more furniture."
      "Then I ran down the steps to the lower level and
encountered a female technician.  Her chin, I noticed, was
pointed--like the Wicked Witch in The Wizard of Oz.  And
she was coming towards me with a hypodermic needle."
      "I knocked the needle out of her hand, then began
strangling her."
      "At this point, I realized I was dreaming--and made a
mental note to write down the dream when I woke up.  It
might make a good story, I thought."
      "As I squeezed the white-coated witch's neck, her
face turned blue and began to elongate, causing the chin
to become even more pointed.  Then her eyeballs turned red
and began spinning in their sockets.  Next, her mouth
opened, revealing sharp, predatory teeth and a snake-like
tongue that lashed out like a whip."
      "She was becoming something inhuman--and, I was
afraid, un-killable."
      "The dream was becoming too horrible.  I didn't want
to follow it through to the end, even if it did have the
potential for a good story.  I've got enough material to
work with, I decided--and forced myself to wake up."
      "The television was still on.  Eyes Wide Shut had
gone off, and now some other movie was on."
      "I got up to find a pen and paper, then wrote down
the dream.  Then I got back in bed and began watching
television again.  I changed the channel to an all-night
network news program."
      "A smiling blond anchorwoman was describing the
latest convenience to grocery shoppers."
      "I noticed that her chin was pointed."
      "Am I still dreaming? I thought."
      "But the question was only rhetorical.  I knew all
too well that this was the real world."
      After reading Mack's account, I had to wonder: was
this just a dream, or was it the fragmented memories of an
actual abduction experience?
      His description of the underground base--which might
be Area 51 in Nevada or Dulce, New Mexico or some hitherto
unknown desert base in Mexico's states of Coahuila or
Nuevo Leon--is quite similar to descriptions from people
claiming to have been abducted.
      Following Eyes Wide Shut, Tom Cruise starred in the
film The Last Samurai.  During the making of this film,
Cruise was nearly decapitated when a katanna (samurai
sword--J.T.) came within an inch of his neck.  Was it just
an accident?
      Then there's the strange story that appeared in the
November 23, 2004 issue of The National Enquirer, "Nicole
Kidman Mystery Illness."  At the premiere of her new film,
Birth, at the Loew's Lincoln Square Theater, the actress
was photographed with a mysterious red rash on both hands.
Could it have something to do with her role in Eyes Wide
Shut?
      Questions, questions...  (See Weird magazine of
McAllen, Texas for October 27, 2004, "The Beast System" by
Mack White, pages 14 and 15.  Also, The National Enquirer
for November 23, 2004, "Nicole Kidman Mystery Illness,"
page 1.)

      Well, that's it for this week.  Join us in seven days
for more UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the
planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home-
-UFO Roundup."  See you next time!

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2004 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved.  Readers may post news items from UFO
Roundup on their Web sites or in news groups provided that
they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list
the date of issue in which the item first appeared.

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan.nul>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://www.ufoinfo.com/submit/sightings.shtml

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster.nul>

UFOINFO: http://www.ufoinfo.com

Official Archives for UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian
UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine
plus archives of Humanoid Sighting Reports (Albert
Rosales), Filer's Files, Oz Files, UFO News UK.
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   Nov > Nov 25

                 Re: Serious 'Starchild' Problem - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 11:34:44 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 16:29:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Serious 'Starchild' Problem - Balaskas


>From: Lloyd Pye <mailing_list.nul-uk.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 18:04:45 -0500
>Subject: Serious Starchild Problem

<snip>

>Thus, after six long years of frustrating struggle, we stand on
>the verge of making world-class history at some point during the
>next few months. Unfortunately, the closer we've drawn to
>scientifically proving our supposition about possible alien
>involvement, the less we are being helped to achieve that
>monumental goal. This is a baffling contradiction, one I simply
>don't understand. I work for all of you, in the stead of
>everyone whom I assume would do what I do if you had the
>opportunity. I would expect you all to help even more as we drew
>closer to the final goal. Yet exactly the opposite has taken
>place. The closer we get, the more help has dried up, to the
>point where we are near blowing away. I'm being painfully
>serious when I say that.

Greetings Lloyd!

There was much interest among members of the medical community
and research scientists at DNA labs here in Toronto with the
small bone fragment of the "Starchild" skull I presented to
them.

In our exchange of e-mail correspondence and telephone calls
early in 1999, we agreed that with the money you had already
raised, a thorough analysis of the skull would be performed in
Dr. Ronald Pearlman's DNA labs (a distinguished scientist in
this field) here at York University. Dr. Pearlman was prepared
to allocate a full-time researcher for at least half-a-year to
the analysis of the skull, the findings of which would be
suitable for publication in a top refereed scientific journal.
Nothing further happened and the skull (or a replica of it)
continues on its fund raising world tour.

I just want to let you know that the interest in the skull among
members of the medical/scientific community here in Toronto is
still very high and their offer to have it properly tested still
stands. Yes, you can continue to arrange to have many unrelated
and unnecessary tests done on the skull, and these tests will
find unusual or unexpected things (such specialized tests always
do, even with common objects of known origin) but collectively
they will not bring us any closer to answering the ultimate
question, is this skull fully human or not.


Nick Balaskas







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                            Re: Shostack - Allan

From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 23:24:41 -0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 19:52:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Shostack - Allan


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:59:36 -0500
>Subject: Re: Shostak

>I don't know if SETI has evidence of alien signals or not. But
>the endless stonewalling by government on UFO matters indicates
>to me that _if_ they have such evidence, they aren't going to
>let the public know about it.

>To have SETI come up empty handed is an _ideal_ way to quash the
>silly idea that UFOs are ET craft.

>>Also, are other governments doing this or are you limiting
>>yourself to the US (and maybe assuming that no other country
>>possesses the knowhow to partake in SETI).

>Well, the British government discovering 'asbestos' on paper
>records which might shed new light on UFOs, and which will keep
>these records out of sight for 'years', is another good example.
>Such 'asbestos' could first be vacuumed out by workers in
>protective suits, then researchers, also wearing protective gear
>could simply scan or photocopy the 'contaminated' records to
>make the information available quickly. And from the days when
>asbestos was regarded as safe, many people handled lots of it
>for brief periods without keeling over.

>The cover up is so obvious that if all the government buildings
>in Washington DC sported 20-foot-high signs saying "We are
>covering up the truth about UFOs", it couldn't be any clearer.


Leaving aside UFOs, your ideas about SETI do not stand up.

Assume a group of radio astronomers discover signals that
suggest alien intelligence is contacting the earth. They would
probably be reluctant to admit this at first, and would pass the
information on to another group for their comments.

The second group would be in a similar position and would
undoubtedly seek advice from other scientists.  Thus the process
of analysing the signals could (and would) escalate and go on
for many months, maybe years,  with a lot of checking and
rechecking to see if  ETH was borne out by the data received. No
government need be involved at all.

I suspect there would be fierce debates over this SETI discovery
with scientists taking sides, much computer analysis and endless
discussion in learned journals.  Again, no government
involvement is required.

In fact science might well find itself in a position similar to
the Allan Hills 84001 meteorite (from Mars), which caused so
much dispute a few years ago.  In this case, however, the US
government went out of its way to publicise the discovery, not
cover it up!

Considering the importance of the SETI discovery, the computer
analysis would involve, most likely, scientists from many
countries, and there is no way they could all be 'silenced'
during the analysis period (particularly if other, more
definite, ETI signals were received during this time).

SETI discoveries cannot be kept 'under wraps'. Not for long
anyway. Nor can any government (US or other) hush it all up as
you suggest.  It would need an exceptionally well maintained
world-wide conspiracy to do this, something that is quite
plainly impossible to enforce.

So you can forget about a SETI 'cover-up'. It just could not,
and would not, work. Nor would any government try to cover it
up. Instead, they would want to be the first to 'get in on the
act'. And the scientists who first made the startling discovery
would be only too eager to get their names into the public
domain.

As for  'asbestos' and the UK Public Record Office, I can assure
you that  no amount of asbestos could cover up
the discovery of alien intelligence by SETI scientists.


CDA








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   Nov > Nov 25

               Re: Space Case Article On Mac Tonnies - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul>
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 15:26:01 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 19:54:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Space Case Article On Mac Tonnies - Tonnies


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 08:30:54 -0600
>Subject: Re: Space Case Article On Mac Tonnies

>>Source: The Pitch - Kansas City, MO

>http://www.pitch.com/issues/2004-11-25/news/strip.html

>>11-25-04

>>Space Case

><snip>

>>this meat patty

><snip>

>>this tenderloin

><snip>

>>This meat patty

><snip>

>>this rump roast

><snip>

>>this side of beef.

><snip>

>>this chuck steak

>Man,

>What is this guy's fetish with meat? Might make sense if he was
>from Nebraska (Omaha Steaks), but his incessant reference to
>himself as a cut of beef makes it really hard to take...seriously.

>Is it supposed to be funny? Is he trying to cop a Hunter
>Thompson-esque Gonzo persona?

>I get that he wants his old Tonnies back, but the meat stuff
>just annoys the hell out of me.

>While his 'medium' isn't particularly '*well done', I hope it is
>'rare'. <g>

Ortega's weekly column is called the Kansas City Strip.  Hence
the meat thing. One of the bad things about being Managing
Editor: No one edits _you_.

(If you think it's annoying, try reading a column like this
every week!)

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot.nul)

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com

New book: "After the Martian Apocalypse"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/074348293X








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                             Re: Shostak - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 18:36:17 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 04:41:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Shostak - White


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 16:09:36 EST
>Subject: Re: Shostak

<snip>

>>To have SETI come up empty handed is an _ideal_ way to quash the
>>silly idea that UFOs are ET craft.

<snip>

>The "silly idea" is your notion that the SETI project is a plot
>by the government to cover up UFO's. That's the silliest thing
>I've heard in a long time.

First, if you'll look above, you'll see I didn't say SETI _is_ a
plot to cover up UFOs. I said it is an ideal way to do so,
meaning if they wanted to, it's a great opportunity.

Secondly, anyone who has lived to maturity knows that history is
full of government cover ups.

I do feel that SETI _could_ be used to cover up the truth about
UFOs, and would give better than 50% odds it is being used as
such. No, I can't prove that, but when I consider SETI's lack of
definitive findings along side official revisions to Roswell's
explanations and the Phoenix Lights explanations as a couple of
examples, the likelihood gets stronger.

As to the 150 anomalous signals, I would bet there are probably
many others that are far more interesting which have not been
released. Since we are all in the dark, that's about all anyone
can do - speculate.


Eleanor White








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   Nov > Nov 26

                   Re: UFO UpDates Read In Russia - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 18:22:40 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 04:43:39 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO UpDates Read In Russia - Hatch


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 08:27:26 -0800
>Subject: UFO UpDates Read In Russia

>Dear readers:

>While scouring the net, I chanced upon my name on this Russian
>website. UFO UpDates is mentioned as the source:

 >http://www.try.md/view.php?gid=3D4&iid=3D1125

>I quote the Russian text in case anyone thinks I was misquoted or not:

>19 ??????? ?. ?. ????????? ???????????? ??????,
>????????? ???? ?????? ?????????? ??? ????? ????
>(larry.nul) ????????? ? ?????????
>???????? =ABUFO UpDates=BB ? ????? ??? ???????:

.. etc ...


I apologize for the endless question marks above.

They rendered into perfect Cryllic characters in my Firefox
browser, but turn to mush in an email.

The cryllic (Russian) characters are much more interesting to
look at, even if still perfectly incomprehensible.


Best

Larry Hatch









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                          Music & UFOs 6 Years On?

From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 03:38:56 -0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 05:02:45 -0500
Subject: Music & UFOs 6 Years On?


Hi All,

I first wrote this mail six years ago:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1998/oct/m27-012.shtml

As an update to the thread, are there still plenty of you guys
playing, or noodling with an instrument?

I am still at it, and will be releasing my new music site very
soon!

Look forward to the interesting answers!


Best,

Roy








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                  Re: 365-24/7 UFO Radio Network? - LeClair

From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 10:04:45 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 19:03:37 -0500
Subject: Re: 365-24/7 UFO Radio Network? - LeClair


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 00:03:40 EST
>Subject: 365-24/7 UFO Radio Network?

>Again I've got several Ufologists with financing problems.

>So I was shown an opportunity to develope a 24/7 365 radio
>program network. So far it looks good. If anyone is interested
>in doing their own program on the network let me know and I'll
>give you the skinny so far. It's web-based at first but the
>option for affiliate broadcast is there as well as long as
>there's enough personality :)


Yeh, I thought about doing one a couple years ago. The price to
run a show better these days?

As of now, I'm not too interested in running a show. I rather
just be a guest. It would be nice to hear a more challenging
show, unlike the paranormal shows that are out there now.

None of the radio hosts really challenge the claims put forth
and ask good questions of their guests (Strange Days... aside).

I would love to hear Sylvia Brown  answer why she charges around
700 dollars for a "psychic reading", and still hasn't tried to
do Randi's test. Or ask Sean David Morten about all his lies
etc.

You would never run out of things to say doing that sort of
thing - heh. Of course, deal with the important and legit stuff
too.







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                    Re: Music & UFOs 6 Years On? - Groff

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 09:12:27 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 19:05:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Music & UFOs 6 Years On? - Groff


>From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 03:38:56 -0000
>Subject: Music & UFOs 6 Years On?

>Hi All,

>I first wrote this mail six years ago:

>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1998/oct/m27-012.shtml

>As an update to the thread, are there still plenty of you guys
>playing, or noodling with an instrument?

>I am still at it, and will be releasing my new music site very
>soon!

>Look forward to the interesting answers!


Hi Roy,

Keep me posted as to when your site is ready.

In the mean time I'm going to take this opening to let everyone
know that I completed the film score to an independent film
entitled "Bobby Speaking".

It's the story of a boy in a man's body who dabbles in
electronics and accidentally invents a device that allows him to
travel through his TV to the other side. Needless to say he gets
in to all kinds of mischief as a result. In one scene you can
see yours truly encountering Bobby on one of his excursions as
I'm playing my bass guitar in a local club (The Bone, Deep Ellum
section of Dallas).

You can now buy your pre-distribution copy for only $5.99 plus
shipping at:

http://www.bobbyspeaking.com

But don't wait to long. After distribution begins the price will
be at the discretion of the distributor.

While you're at the site view a short trailer which includes
"Bobby's Theme".


Thanks,

Terry

P.S. During the filming, The director (Austin Wayne) had a
birthday scene in which the family sang "Happy Birthday" to a
little girl. You should have seen the look on Austin's face when
I told him he couldn't use "Happy Birthday" without permission.
He didn't know that it is still copyrighted by the Hill sisters.
That part of the scene was cut.







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                   Re: Music & UFOs 6 Years On? - Matteson

From: Gary Matteson <mystrius.nul>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 10:15:52 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 19:08:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Music & UFOs 6 Years On? - Matteson


>From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 03:38:56 -0000
>Subject: Music & UFOs 6 Years On?

>I first wrote this mail six years ago:

>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1998/oct/m27-012.shtml

>As an update to the thread, are there still plenty of you guys
>playing, or noodling with an instrument?

>I am still at it, and will be releasing my new music site very
>soon!

>Look forward to the interesting answers!


Hello Roy Hale,

I admit to having a 35 year history of experience with guitars
and mandolins, also, to not being particularly proficient at a
level worthy of mention.

Truthfully, been on stage and friendly with many, more capable
than I in music. About 5 years ago, I put all those tools away.

With grand kids coming into their own, my many instruments, more
so than myself, may be pulled out of retirement, to be of some
assistance in helping the grand kids begin and maintain their
interest in music making.


Best wishes for success with the music site.

Gary Matteson

http://www.geocities.com/sparky_from_nebraska/Unofficial_MUFON-NE








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   Nov > Nov 26

                  Varginha Case Motion Picture In The Works

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 11:29:54 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 19:10:37 -0500
Subject: Varginha Case Motion Picture In The Works


INEXPLICATA
The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
November 26, 2004


Source: La Nave de los Locos No. 29
Date: November 24, 2004

VARGINHA CASE MOTION PICTURE IN THE WORKS

A new movie production directly related to ufology is in the
works in Brazil. Director Regina Mattos Leao and her colleague
Wemerson Martins de Faria are currently filming a motion picture
devoted to the Varginha Incident, in which a number of girls
witnessed an alleged ET in a vacant lot of this Brazilian city.
The "little Martian" was allegedly captured by the military.

The directors have promised a movie based on "brainy" research,
with skeptics reserving their judgment in this regard until they
have seen it on screen. Mattos stated: "We will avail ourselves
of science fiction, we will tell the story with hitherto
unexplored emotion and action, yet without altering reality."

The project is supported by the Varghina Cultural Foundation as
well as the Secretariat of Tourism and Commerce

================================================================

Translation (c) 2004. Scott Corrales IHU
Special thanks to Daniel Zuniga








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                     Good-Outcome UFO Abduction Stories?

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 11:46:48 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 19:15:18 -0500
Subject: Good-Outcome UFO Abduction Stories?


Any reports of other happy ending stories about abductees or
even the standard UFO sightings? I don't mean the standard
awe-inspiring stuff. I mean beneficial outcomes such as
miraculous healings, life savings, or financial benefits (I seem
to recall one abductee told where some gold was buried).

Regarding the story below, it seems unlikely that if you had a
hole in your heart that you would be _alive_ let alone cured of
some disease.

--------------------------------------------

Source: The Beacon News - Aurora, Illinois

http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/beaconnews/city/a24ufo.htm

11-24-04


"UFO group says sightings are up in Northern Illinois Halloween
scare: Witnesses report lights in the sky

By Kim Smith

WILMINGTON =97 Four local children tell a tale of seeing a
rotating disc flying across their subdivision and over a nearby
cornfield before the object disappeared somewhere around Route
53.

The children tell their story so well that expert investigators
from the Mutual UFO Network say their story could not be made
up.

Investigators from the network, those who report witnessing
unidentified flying objects and members of the public attended a
special meeting this month at the Wilmington Public Library.

The group provided videotapes and hundreds of photographs taken
during what the UFO network's Illinois Section director, Sam
Maranto, is calling some of the most massive area UFO sightings
in recent history.

Two of the events took place Aug. 21 and Oct. 31 of this year
and were reportedly seen by hundreds of people in Frankfort,
Mokena, New Lenox, Tinley Park, Oak Forest, Orland Park, Orland
Hills, Matteson and possibly as far away as Hazel Crest.

The sighting reported by the children happened in Wilmington in
June and differs from the more recent events.

The more massive sightings were of a peculiar formation of three
red lights =97 not a disc =97 that were seen by hundreds of
witnesses.

One business owner said he was sitting outside with some friends
after the Chicago Bears football game when a neighbor yelled at
them to look up. They watched the three lights change formations
as they went from a northwest direction to the southeast in
about 20 minutes, he said. There reportedly was no sound.

He said the bright red lights turned white before disappearing.
Around 45 minutes later, a single red light appeared. He was
able to capture the light with his video camera.

The witness, who lives in Tinley Park, also viewed the return of
the lights on Halloween night. There were three of them again,
he said.

There is a video of the sightings available at the National UFO
Reporting Center Web site, at www.nuforc.org.

The reporting center takes the reports, and the Mutual UFO
Network does the actual investigations.

Maranto said the UFO incidents are investigated by individuals
certified in aviation, meteorology, physics, astronomy and other
scientific fields. Eyewitness testimonies, photos and videotapes
are analyzed.

The Halloween sighting happened around 8 p.m. and was viewed by
hundreds of trick-or-treaters, according to a preliminary Mutual
UFO Network report. On two streets alone, nearly 50 trick-or-
treaters were stopped with their eyes on the sky.

The group said the object was shaped like a triangle and was
more than 5,000 feet long. At the longest dimension, it
reportedly covered eight north and south blocks. Depending on
how it rotated, the object reportedly was 1,500 feet to 6,500
feet off the ground and hovered about 4,000 feet above the
ground.

This is not the first time there have been UFO sightings in the
Joliet area. A fiery pinkish-orange flash of light reportedly
was seen near Parker Road by drivers on Interstate 80 as well as
a New Lenox man parked in his driveway near Cedar Road in New
Lenox on Nov. 30, 1997. A rash of sightings were reported in the
fall of 1988.

Although there might be more sightings reported by more people,
Maranto said there is no reason to panic. He has heard the tales
of possible abductions, he said, but most of the stories he has
heard have had happy endings.

"I heard about a guy who had trouble getting around due to
severe multiple sclerosis who was abducted and came back. He
lost 30 pounds in one week and now moves like an antelope,"
Maranto said. "Another man in Indiana who had a hole in his
heart woke up to find a V-shape cut. He went to the doctor and
found he had been cured."









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                Re: Researcher: 'We Are Not Alone' - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 14:00:11 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 19:23:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Researcher: 'We Are Not Alone' - Friedman


>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers ->
>Date: Thursday, November 25, 2004 9:24 AM
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Researcher: 'We Are Not Alone'


>Source: Mount Shasta News - Mount Shasta, California

>http://www.mtshastanews.com/articles/2004/11/24/news/11notalone.txt

>11-24-04


>Researcher: 'We Are Not Alone'
>By Michael Le Guellec

>Stanton Friedman, nuclear physicist and lecturer on the topic of
>UFOs, presented his arguments last Wednesday that some UFOs are
>real.

>During his lecture at the Kenneth Ford Theatre in Weed,
>sponsored by the College of the Siskiyous Associated Student
>Body, Friedman took a scientific approach by presenting facts
>and information from government files along with countless
>interviews he's conducted with civilians and military personnel
>since the early 1950s.

<snip>

Believe it or not I spent more than 30 minutes with the writer,
one-on-one. He heard my lecture, and I gave him some written
material. There are, unfortunately, a number of factual
mistatements anyway.

However, I think the important point is that my program and my
views did not make me out as a mad scientist, as somebody on
this List complained a while back. As I recall, no basis was
given for that viewpoint.

Considering how many very complimentary letters I have from
college and professional groups to which I have spoken, and that
the very great majority of press coverage has not made me out as
a mad scientist, I wonder what the basis was for that view?? I
am sure I can find a number of nasty noisy negativists who take
that view, but I seriously doubt that they are in the majority
of the public as opposed to the tiny kingdom of debunkers.

Incidentally the College charged a 10$ admission fee... and we
still had a fine crowd.


Stan Friedman







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              Re: Space Case Article On Mac Tonnies - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 13:28:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 19:26:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Space Case Article On Mac Tonnies - Maccabee


>Source: The Pitch - Kansas City, MO

>http://www.pitch.com/issues/2004-11-25/news/strip.html

>11-25-04


>Space Case

>Attention, aliens: Please return our science-fiction writer

>Tony Ortega
>tony.ortega.nul

>The Strip wants to report an alien abduction.

>No, this meat patty didn't see strange lights in the sky or
>witness the kidnapping of a human being by space-hopping, big-
>eyed, bulbous-headed, anal-probe-wielding extraterrestrials.

This side of ham is the guy who wrote a substantially anti-
Phoenix lights article back in 1997(?). I agree with him on
part of it... but not all, and he didn't have to be so 'nasty'
about it.








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                 Alien Abductions & Coffee Enemas - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 15:04:00 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 19:35:36 -0500
Subject: Alien Abductions & Coffee Enemas - Maccabee


>Source: The New Haven Advocate - Connecticut

>http://newhavenadvocate.com/gbase/Lifestyle/content?oid=oid:91687

>11-25-04

>Alien Abductions and Coffee Enemas
>Or, the problem with being open-minded

>by M.D and Steven Novella

>I listened patiently as the UFO enthusiast explained how humans
>were transplanted to the earth from another world by our alien
>forebears.

>"Then how do you explain the fact that humans share 98% of our
>DNA with chimpanzees, and a genetic code will all life on
>earth?" I asked.

>"Well, I think you have to keep an open mind," was her starry-
>eyed response.

<snip>

>So let me turn the tables and humbly ask you, dear reader, to be
>truly open-minded. Adhere to the advice of T.H. Huxley, who
>wrote, "A wise man apportions his belief to the evidence." Keep
>your brains tucked safely inside your skulls. Be open but not
>gullible. And remember, it is better to think than to believe.

Good advice. One problem: what one person considers to be
'evidence' - i.e., "To me this is evidence of ..." -  another
person considers to be irrational 'belief' - i.e., "You believe
that is valid evidence, but I don't."

A lawyer once told me that in court a case is generally _not_
made on the physical evidence because that can be disputed by
the experts. If a case is made (one way or the other) it is
generally based on the circumstantial evidence. Consider the
recent Scott Peterson case leading to conviction or "O.J." who
wasn't convicted.






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                   Re: Music & UFOs 6 Years On? - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 15:11:22 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 19:41:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Music & UFOs 6 Years On? - Maccabee


>From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 03:38:56 -0000
>Subject: Music & UFOs 6 Years On?


>Hi All,

>I first wrote this mail six years ago:

>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1998/oct/m27-012.shtml

>As an update to the thread, are there still plenty of you guys
>playing, or noodling with an instrument?

>I am still at it, and will be releasing my new music site very
>soon!

>Look forward to the interesting answers!

I've been known to bend a keyboard every now and then... like
tomorrow for a birthday party. Have a CD and and trying to
place a new country song, She's The One. Country is unusual
for me; mostly classical and jazz type - piano, organ, synth).








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                   Submission Of Additional Ad For Review

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci.nul>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 15:27:03 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 19:44:14 -0500
Subject: Submission Of Additional Ad For Review


To:   Mr. Johnny Whitaker
      Director of Communications
      U. S. Air Force Academy, CO 80840

From: Larry W. Bryant
      3518 Martha Custis Drive
      Alexandria, VA 22302

Date: November 26, 2004


Once again, Mr. Whitaker, I hereby submit, for the Academy
"Spirit's" pre-publication review, another whistleblower-
solicitation advertisement, as quoted below. As you process
this submission, please note that, over the past few years, at
least one military newspaper has published my ads on similar
topics:

Blow the Whistle on the UFO Cover-up!

In early 2005, a 2-hour TV documentary produced by ABC news
anchor Peter Jennings will air nationwide. It will examine the
prospects for extraterrestrial intelligent life, and the
implications thereof to Earth's civilization. A substantial
portion of the show will focus on the "UFO problem." If you (or
someone you know) wish to contribute to the impact of this
ground-breaking event, now's the time to share your hard-core
evidence of the government's 58-year cover-up of the UFO
experience - said evidence to include deathbed confessions from
any persons who may have participated in that fraud upon the
public.


Contact: Larry W. Bryant at:
703-931-3341;
e-mail: overtci.nul








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                       The Dark Matters Radio Program

From: Don Ecker <decker0726.nul>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 13:19:28 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 07:53:01 -0500
Subject: The Dark Matters Radio Program


Greetings UFO UpDates List,

On Nov. 23 Stuart Miller posted an interesting message
concerning charges of anti-semitism, Jeff Rense and numerous
articles posted on Rense.com.

Errol Bruce-Knapp posted Rense's response to UFO UpDates with
the caveat that it was simply for informational purposes, not
discussion. Since this is Errol's List, I respect that but
this is an important topic in light of today's world.

On Saturday, November 27th on our radio program, Dark Matters,
Dwight Schultz and I will explore this topic. I invite you to
tune in. Your comments and questions will be welcome.

Dark Matters airs starting at 8:00 PM Pacific time, runs for
3 hours, and can be heard via the internet and on satellite.
Set your browser to:

http://www.realityradionetwork.com/

or your satellite receiver to

KU Band Dish or C Band Dish with KU Feedhorn
Digital KU Reciever

Telstar 5 KU Band
Transponder 5
Frequency: 11.836
Symbol Rate: 20770
FEC: 2/3
Vertical Polarization

Star 4 - PID: 63
Star 4 (Right Feed): GlobalStar Radio Networks (Various feeds)



Regards;

Don Ecker
UFO Magazine
www.ufomag.com









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                    Re: Serious 'Starchild' Problem - Pye

From: Lloyd Pye <mailing_list.nul-uk.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 22:07:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 07:57:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Serious 'Starchild' Problem - Pye


>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 11:34:44 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
>Subject: Re: Serious 'Starchild' Problem

>>From: Lloyd Pye <mailing_list.nul-uk.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 18:04:45 -0500
>>Subject: Serious Starchild Problem

><snip>

>>Thus, after six long years of frustrating struggle, we stand on
>>the verge of making world-class history at some point during the
>>next few months. Unfortunately, the closer we've drawn to
>>scientifically proving our supposition about possible alien
>>involvement, the less we are being helped to achieve that
>>monumental goal. This is a baffling contradiction, one I simply
>>don't understand. I work for all of you, in the stead of
>>everyone whom I assume would do what I do if you had the
>>opportunity. I would expect you all to help even more as we drew
>>closer to the final goal. Yet exactly the opposite has taken
>>place. The closer we get, the more help has dried up, to the
>>point where we are near blowing away. I'm being painfully
>>serious when I say that.

>There was much interest among members of the medical community
>and research scientists at DNA labs here in Toronto with the
>small bone fragment of the "Starchild" skull I presented to
>them.

>In our exchange of e-mail correspondence and telephone calls
>early in 1999, we agreed that with the money you had already
>raised, a thorough analysis of the skull would be performed in
>Dr. Ronald Pearlman's DNA labs (a distinguished scientist in
>this field) here at York University. Dr. Pearlman was prepared
>to allocate a full-time researcher for at least half-a-year to
>the analysis of the skull, the findings of which would be
>suitable for publication in a top refereed scientific journal.
>Nothing further happened and the skull (or a replica of it)
>continues on its fund raising world tour.

<snip>


Nick:

This is the first I've heard of the offer from Dr. Pearlman's
labs. I certainly would remember an offer like that!

However, be that as it may, we are now - and this is only for
the moment - locked in with researchers here, in England, who
have been very good to us to this point.

Also remember that we have already had very high-quality DNA
testing done on it - by two of the guys who worked on the
Kennewick Man skull - and know we must have more done now that
we have what could be organic material, in the cancellous holes.

We're moving slowly, but we _are_ moving, and it all seems to be
in the right direction. I just wish I knew how we got these
crossed wires with your Dr. Pearlman...


Lloyd







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                 Re: The Official Report Black Hole - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 04:15:03 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 08:01:53 -0500
Subject: Re: The Official Report Black Hole - Sparks


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: 10/31/2004 11:08:44 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Subj: Re: The Official Report Black Hole


>Correction: The Friend interview was 2000 not 2001, specifically
>March 18, 2000.

Correction on the correction. I checked the SHG interview list
prepared by Tom Tulien and the date of our interview of Col.
Friend was actually March 16 not 18, 2000.








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              Re: Space Case Article On Mac Tonnies - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 06:54:48 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 08:04:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Space Case Article On Mac Tonnies - Lehmberg


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 13:28:52 -0500
>Subject: Re: Space Case Article On Mac Tonnies

>>Source: The Pitch - Kansas City, MO

>>http://www.pitch.com/issues/2004-11-25/news/strip.html

>>11-25-04

>>Space Case

>>Attention, aliens: Please return our science-fiction writer

>>Tony Ortega
>>tony.ortega.nul

>>The Strip wants to report an alien abduction.

>>No, this meat patty didn't see strange lights in the sky or
>>witness the kidnapping of a human being by space-hopping, big-
>>eyed, bulbous-headed, anal-probe-wielding extraterrestrials.

>This side of ham is the guy who wrote a substantially anti-
>Phoenix lights article back in 1997(?). I agree with him on
>part of it... but not all, and he didn't have to be so 'nasty'
>about it.

I think most of these ignorant gadflies are prone to nastiness
as psychological shields and as distractions from that
ignorance. The rest are ignorant too, but parrot the party line
to prop up their conduits for more moldy bread and butter
already turned, or to justify their inability or lack of desire
to think outside the ticky-tacky little boxes they've been
programmed to believe they're comfortable in.

Mac has to live in that town, but were it me, I'd take him point
for point and burn him down... make smores with the glowing
embers. Ignorance is bad enough all by itself... explicated
ignorance is intolerable.

Real irony here when you consider it's Mac's reflexive detractor
who's the one a couple'a chops short of a mixed grill. Besides,
a space case always trumps the self-mired moron; however, clever
or articulate the moron.


alienview.nul -:|:-
  www.AlienView.net








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                   Re: Music & UFOs 6 Years On? - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 07:21:12 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 08:50:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Music & UFOs 6 Years On? - Lehmberg


>From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 03:38:56 -0000
>Subject: Music & UFOs 6 Years On?

>I first wrote this mail six years ago:

>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1998/oct/m27-012.shtml

>As an update to the thread, are there still plenty of you guys
>playing, or noodling with an instrument?

>I am still at it, and will be releasing my new music site very
>soon!

>Look forward to the interesting answers!

I take a lot of satisfaction from making music and have a CD-R I
give away to those who contribute to AlienViewsGroup. Two of the
pieces - rhythm tracks - were composed immediately afterwards,
and in one take, after seeing something unidentified in the sky:


http://www.alienview.net/FirstMT.ram (Crawling Sky)
http://www.alienview.net/3rdMT.ram  (Sky Lights)

There is also a 45 minute DVD of a music and art presentation...
as is there a computer (PC) presentation of same. The art and
music took off after getting interested in ufology and I really
seem to be in contact with something, at least minimally
creative, when I am writing, creating, or playing... thinking
about it.

http://www.alienview.net/help.html

alienview.nul -:=A6:-
  www.AlienView.net









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                      Research Update From Faded Discs

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 06:32:40 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 09:27:39 -0500
Subject: Research Update From Faded Discs


Interested Researchers,

A recording of the White Sands, NM Public Information Officer,
giving a statement regarding the incident of November 3, 1957,
has been recovered. It is interesting to note that the
ridicule/giggle factor is not present and the information
released to the public was fair and accurate; although
abbreviated for radio broadcast.

Other recording acquistions just seeing the light of day after
many decades are:

- George Van Tassel lecturing in 1957

- George Adamski lecturing in 1965

- Dr. Ivan T. Sanderson visiting researchers in 1959

With regard to the Woodrow Derenberger case.....

An interview of him by researchers two days following the
incident has been preserved and an interview with several other
witnesses that were not previously known, were also interviewed.
Although the witnesses are fully collaborating Derenberger's
sighting, they are not doing so with regard to his alleged CE
III, since they weren't in sight of Derenberger, but observing
the same object.

This is what I call an interesting historical road bump and once
again we get to go around the mulberry bush.

Did Derenberger fabricate his story, or is there actually many
elements of truth within the first 24 hours, before he began
expounding the experience from that point on?

Just goes to prove it is difficult to get some questionable
cases to go away and leave Ufology out of it.

It is always fun to go back into Ufology's history... you either
get reminded of your own time in Ufology, or if you're
relatively new to the field, it's a chance to go back and find
out what you've missed... which is a great deal!


Thank You

Wendy Connors
www.fadeddiscs.com








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                Re: Researcher: 'We Are Not Alone' - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 10:48:30 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 14:15:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Researcher: 'We Are Not Alone' - Friedman


>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 20:04:13 -0000
>Subject: Re: Researcher: 'We Are Not Alone'

>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers - :>
>Date: Thursday, November 25, 2004 1:24 PM
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Researcher: 'We Are Not Alone'


>>Source: Mount Shasta News - Mount Shasta, California

>>http://www.mtshastanews.com/articles/2004/11/24/news/11notalone.txt

>>11-24-04

>>Researcher: 'We Are Not Alone'
>>By Michael Le Guellec

>>Stanton Friedman, nuclear physicist and lecturer on the topic of
>>UFOs, presented his arguments last Wednesday that some UFOs are
>>real.

<snip>

>Four comments.

>1. Friedman is not the only civilian investigator of the Roswell
>Incident.

>2. Which "classified memo" was it that was released by the US
>goverment in 1950 admitting the discovery of two crashed-saucers
>and several alien bodies from New Mexico? And was it released
>then, or many years later?

>3. Where does Blue Book Special Report 14 give details of
>"physical evidence found since 1947"?

>4. What is Operation "Majestic Five"?

>My apologies to STF if the errors are due to the journalist.



Apologies noted. The reporter went overboard. He was friendly
and interested but not accurate about these and some other
items. The tone was good as I have noted. Not a large newspaper.








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                             All Things Pelican

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 07:51:23 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 14:17:17 -0500
Subject: All Things Pelican


All Things Pelican:

Skepti-bunkers, Pelicanists and CSICOPians give me a pain. Well,
not just me. Probably most of the known universe. I can tell
that's a fact because of the millions of coffee stains.

Every time I am assaulted in print or the airwaves by these
scientifically benign and genetically challenged individuals, I
have to clean any glass object in front of me. Such as the
computer's monitor, TV screen or inside the front window of my
car. Why? Because it seems like I am always enjoying a cup of
coffee when my eyes or ears lock on to pelican flappings. God,
my glass cleaner and paper towel expenses are enormous.

I think it's time to put the Patriot Act II in force against
these terrorists bent on destroying Ufology and those who are
interested in the subject. Maybe we could build a new wing at
Gitmo to house these human arachnids.

Better yet, this is the new America and values count. Let's burn
these heretics who tell us that our benevolent space brothers
didn't bring the blessed Jesus to us in our greatest time of
need and to wash away our sins. Let Bush R Leader assemble them
on sacred ground at the ranch. Praise be to the Lord that Karl
the Rove lights the fires, for he is the right hand of our
Leader.

How uplifting! Ufology will be saved! The masses will continue
to believe, as good corporate citizens faithfully adhere to the
Word. The old timers within Ufology will secure the most sacred
secrets and continue to provide guidance to the masses.

Pass the Offering Plate.


Wendy Connors
www.fadeddiscs.com

It's tough living in a Situation Red state these days.







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   Nov > Nov 28

                       Re: All Things Pelican - Weber

From: Bill Weber <wweber1.nul>
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 20:01:45 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 11:54:39 -0500
Subject: Re: All Things Pelican - Weber


>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 07:51:23 -0700
>Subject: All Things Pelican

>All Things Pelican:

>Skepti-bunkers, Pelicanists and CSICOPians give me a pain.
>Well, not just me. Probably most of the known universe. I can
>tell that's a fact because of the millions of coffee stains.

Calm down, Wendy. We all know how hard it is for you to put food
on your family and accept the love from your OBGYN, but it
sounds as though you've gotten into some dangerous, socialist
Canadian pharmacuticals. As you may already know, drug therapies
are replacing a lot of medicines as we used to know it.

We cannot flip flop. The correct strategy with skeptibunkees
is to be resolute, resolutely. If you don't stand for anything,
you don't stand for anything. Fight them on their ground,
rather than waiting for them to fight us on ours. We cannot let
terriers and rogue skeptics hold this List hostile - or hold our
allies hostile.

But when all is said and done, it really sounds to me as though
you're short on family values. As a great man once said,
"Families is where our nation finds hope, where wings take
dream." The American people wants a researcher that appeals to
the angels. As always, our priorities is our faith.


Best,

W

As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents,
more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some
great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach
their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron. -- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)









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             Re: Good-Outcome UFO Abduction Stories? - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 08:15:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 11:58:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Good-Outcome UFO Abduction Stories? - Maccabee


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 11:46:48 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
>Subject: Good-Outcome UFO Abduction Stories

<snip>

>Source: The Beacon News - Aurora, Illinois

>http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/beaconnews/city/a24ufo.htm

>11-24-04


>"UFO group says sightings are up in Northern Illinois Halloween
>scare: Witnesses report lights in the sky

>By Kim Smith

>WILMINGTON =97 Four local children tell a tale of seeing a
>rotating disc flying across their subdivision and over a nearby
>cornfield before the object disappeared somewhere around Route
>53.

>The children tell their story so well that expert investigators
>from the Mutual UFO Network say their story could not be made
>up.

>Investigators from the network, those who report witnessing
>unidentified flying objects and members of the public attended a
>special meeting this month at the Wilmington Public Library.

<snip>

>One business owner said he was sitting outside with some friends
>after the Chicago Bears football game when a neighbor yelled at
>them to look up. They watched the three lights change formations
>as they went from a northwest direction to the southeast in
>about 20 minutes, he said. There reportedly was no sound.

>He said the bright red lights turned white before disappearing.
>Around 45 minutes later, a single red light appeared. He was
>able to capture the light with his video camera.

Return of Bubba?

=46rom Nov 1990 throughJuly of 1992 there were numerous sighitings
of an, as-yet, unexplained light traveling through the skies of
Gulf Breeze, Florida,and nearby areas (including Pensacola). One
peculiar characteristic of this light was that it was first seen
as red and then would turn bright white just before
disappearing.

It was seen many times and was given the nickname Bubba.








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                   Re: 365-24/7 UFO Radio Network? - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 13:14:39 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 12:00:32 -0500
Subject: Re: 365-24/7 UFO Radio Network? - Boone


>From: Aaron LeClair <saucer.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 10:04:45 -0500
>Subject: Re: 365-24/7 UFO Radio Network?

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 00:03:40 EST
>>Subject: 365-24/7 UFO Radio Network?

>>Again I've got several Ufologists with financing problems.

>>So I was shown an opportunity to develope a 24/7 365 radio
>>program network. So far it looks good. If anyone is interested
>>in doing their own program on the network let me know and I'll
>>give you the skinny so far. It's web-based at first but the
>>option for affiliate broadcast is there as well as long as
>>there's enough personality :)

>Yeh, I thought about doing one a couple years ago. The price to
>run a show better these days?

>As of now, I'm not too interested in running a show. I rather
>just be a guest. It would be nice to hear a more challenging
>show, unlike the paranormal shows that are out there now.

>None of the radio hosts really challenge the claims put forth
>and ask good questions of their guests (Strange Days... aside).

>I would love to hear Sylvia Brown  answer why she charges around
>700 dollars for a "psychic reading", and still hasn't tried to
>do Randi's test. Or ask Sean David Morten about all his lies
>etc.

>You would never run out of things to say doing that sort of
>thing - heh. Of course, deal with the important and legit stuff
>too.

Hi Aaron,

Thanks!

Yet I wouldn't have psychics on this network. It's about UFOs
only. Just raw data for the public and for the professionals to
chew on. Nuts & bolts data from real researchers, scientists,
journalists without the hostile and antagonism and character
assassination.

Just the facts ma'am.

None of the "Space brothers coming to save humanity" nonsense.

I got so tired of UFOlogists I know crying the blues about not
making money and got tired of dedicated UFOlogists who do great
things but don't get the recognition nor financial help they
deserve. So I'm just looking at options to make these people
more self reliant where they can deal with the public one-on-one
instead of through a proxy once in a great while.

I often think of folks like Mr. Davenport and Mr. Filer who work
tirelessly and should be supported by the public.

Yes, broadcasting is a lot cheaper and higher quality nowadays
and with the new payment options and software management systems
it's danged near trouble-free. I have other options for
broadcasting but that's a secret right now so hold on to your
hat.

The coming few years are going to be dangerous to say the least.
The advance of new and suppressed and overlooked technologies is
going to determine the supremacy of the human race as we know
it. We all need to work fast to see that those technologies and
social changes are for the good, not evil.

UFOlogists had better team up, settle grudges and become the
constituency they had best become before it's too late. Each day
our freedoms are encroached upon under the color of 'National
Security' with broadcasters hit with ridiculous fines for
'obscenity' by the same people who relish in the terrors of war
and carnage.

It would be ashamed if we become an enslaved collective due to
ego-tripping.


Best,

Greg








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                   UFO Group Says Sightings Up In Illinois

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 12:04:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 12:04:34 -0500
Subject: UFO Group Says Sightings Up In Illinois




Source: The Beacon News - Chicago

http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/beaconnews/city/a24ufo.htm

11-2-04


UFO Group Says Sightings Are Up In Northern Illinois

Halloween scare: Witnesses report lights in the sky

By Kim Smith
Staff Writer


WILMINGTON =97 Four local children tell a tale of seeing a
rotating disc flying across their subdivision and over a nearby
cornfield before the object disappeared somewhere around Route
53.

The children tell their story so well that expert investigators
from the Mutual UFO Network say their story could not be made
up.

Investigators from the network, those who report witnessing
unidentified flying objects and members of the public attended a
special meeting this month at the Wilmington Public Library.

The group provided videotapes and hundreds of photographs taken
during what the UFO network's Illinois Section director, Sam
Maranto, is calling some of the most massive area UFO sightings
in recent history.

Two of the events took place Aug. 21 and Oct. 31 of this year
and were reportedly seen by hundreds of people in Frankfort,
Mokena, New Lenox, Tinley Park, Oak Forest, Orland Park, Orland
Hills, Matteson and possibly as far away as Hazel Crest.

The sighting reported by the children happened in Wilmington in
June and differs from the more recent events.

The more massive sightings were of a peculiar formation of three
red lights =97 not a disc =97 that were seen by hundreds of
witnesses.

One business owner said he was sitting outside with some friends
after the Chicago Bears football game when a neighbor yelled at
them to look up. They watched the three lights change formations
as they went from a northwest direction to the southeast in
about 20 minutes, he said. There reportedly was no sound.

He said the bright red lights turned white before disappearing.
Around 45 minutes later, a single red light appeared. He was
able to capture the light with his video camera.

The witness, who lives in Tinley Park, also viewed the return of
the lights on Halloween night. There were three of them again,
he said.

There is a video of the sightings available at the National UFO
Reporting Center Web site, at www.nuforc.org.

The reporting center takes the reports, and the Mutual UFO
Network does the actual investigations.

Maranto said the UFO incidents are investigated by individuals
certified in aviation, meteorology, physics, astronomy and other
scientific fields. Eyewitness testimonies, photos and videotapes
are analyzed.

The Halloween sighting happened around 8 p.m. and was viewed by
hundreds of trick-or-treaters, according to a preliminary Mutual
UFO Network report. On two streets alone, nearly 50 trick-or-
treaters were stopped with their eyes on the sky.

The group said the object was shaped like a triangle and was
more than 5,000 feet long. At the longest dimension, it
reportedly covered eight north and south blocks. Depending on
how it rotated, the object reportedly was 1,500 feet to 6,500
feet off the ground and hovered about 4,000 feet above the
ground.

This is not the first time there have been UFO sightings in the
Joliet area. A fiery pinkish-orange flash of light reportedly
was seen near Parker Road by drivers on Interstate 80 as well as
a New Lenox man parked in his driveway near Cedar Road in New
Lenox on Nov. 30, 1997. A rash of sightings were reported in the
fall of 1988.

Although there might be more sightings reported by more people,
Maranto said there is no reason to panic. He has heard the tales
of possible abductions, he said, but most of the stories he has
heard have had happy endings.

"I heard about a guy who had trouble getting around due to
severe multiple sclerosis who was abducted and came back. He
lost 30 pounds in one week and now moves like an antelope,"
Maranto said. "Another man in Indiana who had a hole in his
heart woke up to find a V-shape cut. He went to the doctor and
found he had been cured."


[UFO UpDates thanks The Norm for the lead]








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              Re: Submission Of Additional Ad For Review - Pope

From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 12:48:50 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 12:07:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Submission Of Additional Ad For Review - Pope


>From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci.nul>
>To: johnny.whitaker.nul
>Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 15:27:03 -0500 (EST)
>Subject: Submission Of Additional Ad For Review

 <snip>

>Once again, Mr. Whitaker, I hereby submit, for the Academy
>"Spirit's" pre-publication review, another whistleblower-
>solicitation advertisement, as quoted below. As you process
>this submission, please note that, over the past few years, at
>least one military newspaper has published my ads on similar
>topics:

>Blow the Whistle on the UFO Cover-up!

>In early 2005, a 2-hour TV documentary produced by ABC news
>anchor Peter Jennings will air nationwide. It will examine the
>prospects for extraterrestrial intelligent life, and the
>implications thereof to Earth's civilization. A substantial
>portion of the show will focus on the "UFO problem." If you (or
>someone you know) wish to contribute to the impact of this
>ground-breaking event, now's the time to share your hard-core
>evidence of the government's 58-year cover-up of the UFO
>experience - said evidence to include deathbed confessions from
>any persons who may have participated in that fraud upon the
>public.

>Contact: Larry W. Bryant at: 703-931-3341;
>e-mail: overtci.nul


Larry,

I wish you luck, but given the provocative tone of the
advertisement, would not be surprised if it's rejected.

A while ago in the UK, the late Graham Birdsall's UFO Magazine
ran a feature on a UFO sighting involving a witness on a Royal
Navy warship, HMS Manchester. Russel Callaghan approached "Navy
News" who ran an advertisement that read as follows:

HMS Manchester 1999. Did you see the UFO? Do you have
information? Confidentiality assured.

It then gave Russel's contact details.

The advertisement drew no responses, but there was no difficulty
in getting "Navy News" to publish it.

The text of your advertisement makes accusations that may be
seen as anti-military, and the text of your cover letter simply
alerts the magazine to the fact that there may be a problem.

If the advertisement is rejected, why don't you try something
along the following lines:


UFOs and the Military

Researcher studying the history of Project Blue Book, the USAF's
study into UFOs, would be interested to hear from any military
personnel who have had a UFO sighting or who have information
about Blue Book or related matters. All information will be
treated in the strictest confidence.


It sounds academic, it makes no accusations, and while you don't
get to have your say, I'd suggest it's far more likely to be
printed. I also suspect that your target audience is far more
likely to respond to something academic sounding.

I'd submit your advertisement under a cover note which said
little more than "Please see the attached".

Of course, you'd have to honor your promise of confidentiality,
but it may well be that you can negotiate with any respondents
on this point, and see if they are prepared to have their
information used in some way.


Best wishes,

Nick Pope








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                     What Secrets Lie In Museum Vaults?

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 13:39:43 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 12:11:23 -0500
Subject: What Secrets Lie In Museum Vaults?


I feel like that ending scene of "Raiders of the Lost Ark" where
the Ark was secreted away in a warehouse full of a sea of
unknown objects.

I've got a lead given to me from an engineering pal of mine of
what was found in the depths of a very famous museum.

Said objects defy any form of modern historical sequence and
these objects have yet to see the light of day.

Just one of these objects, already verified of it's age
overturns anything we have come to know as the developement of
technological devices.

I'm now going to pursue the contacts who didn't know there were
outlets for this information. I wouldn't do this had I not exact
descriptions and time and events that occured.

Cross your fingers, this one is gonna be a good one.

How does this tie in with UFOlogy? It goes hand in hand with
theories regarding early advanced civilization and could lead to
possible ET intervention of some sort. Could.


Best,

Greg







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                 Research Co-ordination On Jennings' UFO Doc

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci.nul>
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 15:30:13 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 12:15:35 -0500
Subject: Research Co-ordination On Jennings' UFO Doc


To:   Ms. Susan C. Schaefer
      Peter Jennings Productions
      New York, Ny

From: Larry W. Bryant
3518 Martha Custis Drive
Alexandria, Va 22302


Date: November 27, 2004


Referring to the below-quoted classified advertisement that I
plan to submit to one or more U. S. military weekly newspapers,
I presume that the production team assigned to Mr. Jennings'
project would be interested in being kept informed of any UFO-
cover-up-expose evidence coming my way as a result of the ad's
eventual publication.

Accordingly, would you please identify for me the name, phone
number, and e-mail address of the pertinent point-of-contact
within your office with whom I may coordinate the sharing of any
such forthcoming information? Thank you for this networking
opportunity to help present the greatest story ever (never)
told. -- Larry W. Bryant

Blow the Whistle on the UFO Cover-up!

In early 2005, a 2-hour TV documentary produced by ABC news
anchor Peter Jennings will air nationwide. It will examine the
prospects for extraterrestrial intelligent life, and the
implications thereof to Earth's civilization. A substantial
portion of the show will focus on the "UFO problem." If you (or
someone you know) wish to contribute to the impact of this
ground-breaking event, now's the time to share your hard-core
evidence of the government's 58-year cover-up of the UFO
experience -- said evidence to include deathbed confessions from
any persons who may have participated in that fraud upon the
public.


Larry W. Bryant
703-931-3341
overtci.nul






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                          How Is UK Ufology Faring?

From: Roy Hale <vinyl.lover10.nul>
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 23:08:24 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 12:22:06 -0500
Subject: How Is UK Ufology Faring?


List,

It has now been over a year since Graham Birdsall of Quest
International's UFO Magazine passed away.

How is UK Ufology faring since the closure of UFO UK Magazine?

Has the debate gone?

Have UFO sightings become less of a topic for discussion in the
UK?

How major a role did UK UFO magazine play in keeping UK UFO
research in the public mind?

How high is the readership for the USA and Brazilian UFO
Magazines?

Who will be writing the history of ufology? The sceptics, or the
people who have witnessed strange things, beings, craft etc.

Is the alien agenda a mere blur from past decades, where slick
design and colourful graphics inspired us to revel in a
beautiful mystery?

How many UK UFO groups are receiving regular sightings and
contact reports?

Is there a 'New Ufology'? An underground ufology, a mutation
caused by he fragmentation of mainstream ufology?

Who is still telling people that UFOs are not real, yet still
make their wares available in media circles, promoting their own
form of closet ufology?

Who now keeps the MoD on their toes in the UK, regarding UFO
sightings?

Isn't strange that those people lucky enough to film anything
decent in the UK, are put against the media faces of mainstream
ridicule, and then quit?

What does a psychologist know about video tape film? Aren t they
supposed to be looking at the mind and its workings?


Roy








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               Numerous Objects Over Houston British Columbia

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO Research <hbccufo.nul>
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 16:16:27 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 12:25:49 -0500
Subject: Numerous Objects Over Houston British Columbia


Houston, British Columbia Numerous Objects
Witnessed By Houston Residents

First Object Witnessed

Date: November 24, 2004
Time: 6:15 p.m.

On the evening of November 24, 2004, starting at 6:15 p.m. the
sky came alive with numerous objects being witness over the
small town of Houston, British Columbia. It was an exciting
night to say the least as it has been very quiet in the Pacific
Northwest of B.C. over 2004 compared with 2002 and 2003 when
northwestern B.C. was almost the UFO capital of Canada due to
the large amount of reported UFO sightings.

All of this changed as we made our way through 2004 with UFO
sightings dropping off dramatically compared to the two previous
years.

On Wednesday night things changed quickly. A close friend of
ours had just dropped in for a visit when the telephone rang, I
went and answered it. There was an excited lady on the other end
who was about to start off the evening's chain of events. She
and her husband were outside of their home which is located at
the west end of town. She reported they both watched an
extremely bright, fast moving light traveling over head from the
west heading towards the east over top of Mount Harry Davis.
They both were surprised at how fast the object traveled and
both of them not hearing a sound coming from it. Also as the
light moved across the sky it was seen dropping in altitude and
then rising back up again and it did this over and over as it
flew. The couple reported it to be traveling much faster than a
low flying aircraft, but not as fast as a meteor. There was no
tail or trail following behind the object as it moved through
the night sky. The color was reported to be white, red and
orange and due to the brilliance of the object no structure
could be seen. Also due to a very still night the smoke from
burning fire places and wood stoves at their location slightly
hampered getting a good look at the object. (seeing any
details).

As the bright object almost reached a point where the couple
would have lost sight of it in the eastern sky, two other
extremely bright lights sat stationary. As the original object
was about to disappear the two other lights began to move at a
high rate of speed moving in opposite direction and vanishing
within seconds.

Both of the witness stood stunned at what they just saw and told
me they had never seen anything like it before.

---------------------

Houston, British Columbia Second Object Witnessed

Date: November 24, 2004
Time: 7:20 p.m.

Another phone call came in and the witnesses said at 7:20 p.m.
they watched a craft with 5 lights on it fly southwest from the
micro wave tower on top Mount Harry Davis and over top their
home just off Highway #16 here in Houston, B.C.

Whatever the object was traveled at a high rate of speed not
making a sound. The witnesses stressed the craft moved so fast
they hadn't a chance to see any detail on it other than the
lights.

----------------------

Houston, British Columbia Third Object Witnessed

Date: November 24, 2004
Time: 7:40 p.m.

Seeing there were the two reports that had just came in, I
decided to dress warm and go outside to watch the sky for
myself. After about 15 minutes had past and not seeing anything,
plus the outside temperatures were not warm at all I came back
in and sat down in the living room with my wife and close
friend. We had turned off some of the lights in our home and
left the TV on as we sat chatting. The front room curtains were
opened wide which gives me an excellent view of Mount Harry
Davis.

As we all sat discussing and wondering what the objects might
have been, I gave out a loud yell and ran to the living room
window, followed by my wife and friend. There flying low over
the mountain was a large, bright orange light which was dropping
in altitude rapidly. As we all watched the objects seemed to
change direction slightly and was easily viewed following the
top contour of the mountain. (One reason we were able to see the
outline of the mountain was due to the moon being so bright and
lighting up all the surrounding areas). Eventually the object
dropped down behind the mountain towards the northeast and
disappeared. I am very comfortable saying what we saw at this
time was not an aircraft, what ever it was has the three of us
baffled.

------------------------

Houston, British Columbia Fourth Thing Witnessed

Date: November 24, 2004
Time: 7:50 p.m.

HBCC UFO Research: Still with something happening this evening
we all watched the skies just in case something else might take
place. I would pace the floor back and forth, running to the
telephone to inform some of my close friends as to what was
happening in the area and some of my friends went outside to
watch, just in case they were able to see something and to have
them report back if they had.

I came back to the living room window and looked out, off to the
right of the Micro Wave Tower on Mount Harry Davis I was able to
see a bright white ray, or beam of light which shone upwards. I
wasn't able to see what was causing this ray of light as the
source of it was coming up from behind the mountain. ( I
personally know that there are no roads behind the mountain,
just trees, some lakes, etc.. Also keeping in mind the mountain
has a fair bit of snow on it now and the temperatures at the
time of all the sightings was down to minus 8 Celsius. With
these condition, it is highly unlikely anyone would have been in
the area behind the mountain playing around)

When seeing the ray of light, I started my way through the
living room and was heading outside to be able to view this
better, rather than through a window. As I got to the kitchen
the telephone rang and I went and answered it. Both my wife and
friend were watching the ray of light, which all of a sudden
vanished.

---------------------------

Houston, British Columbia Fifth Object Witnessed

Date: November 24, 2004
Time: 8:00 p.m.

As I sat here on the telephone I suddenly heard my wife and
friend give out a yell. I immediately hung the phone and ran out
to see what they were going on about. Just ten minutes after the
ray of light went out, or disappeared and now on the left side
of the Micro Wave Tower on Mount Harry Davis a large, bright
white light was observed shooting skyward from the back side of
the mountain. My wife and friend said the light shot up in what
appeared to be bursts and eventually disappeared. The light went
to a high altitude before it was gone. I asked if they were able
to see any kind of smoke trail following the light, and none was
to be seen.

This pretty much was the end of the night's excitement as I sat
in the dark for a few hours watching the mountain.

HBCC UFO Research Note: In past years, in 2002 and 2003 a large
number of strange objects had been witnessed by Houston
residents. Many of these sightings taking place over Mount Harry
Davis. From Triangles, Boomerang shaped craft to lights zig
zagging and some hovering over the tower emitting sparks. One
interesting event took place at the base of the mountain and was
witness by the entire family. Report pasted below to give an
example of the strange things being seen over this mountain here
in Houston, B.C.

Sample report Below:

Houston, British Columbia Frightening Encounter (Sighting,
object hovering them moving up the side of Mount Harry Davis)

Date: December 8, 2003
Time: approx: 8:45 p.m.

I was stopped today in the mall and pulled off to the side. A
lady who I know very well wanted to tell me about something she
and her husband and two children witnessed on December 8, 2003
at approx: 8:45 p.m.

Her husband had just picked her up from a friends house and they
arrived back home shortly after. They pulled into their long
driveway only to see the two kids standing outside yelling and
pointed towards the mountain behind their home. The husband
stopped the car quickly and both parents jumped out in fear as
they had no idea what was wrong, thinking the worst. They almost
immediately noticed a white oval shaped object sitting
stationary over the back of their property.

colored object. A slight and annoying hum could be heard coming
from it. The Mother went over and grabbed the two children and
went into the house with them, Dad followed close behind. They
thought it would be safer than standing outside as they had no
idea what is was they were looking at. Once inside the home,
they proceeded to a back bedroom, closed the door behind them as
not to allow any light from inside the home to give away where
they were. (feeling frightened at this time)

But still curiosity was getting the best of them. So they
watched the object, still sitting in the exact spot from when
they first noted it. The family told me the trees which were
below it were all lit up in a white light, and for a good
distance around the area. After a total of approx: 4 minutes of
watching this unusual craft, it slowly started to move. As it
did so the witnesses claimed they could see sparks dropping off
the bottom side of it. The sparks were reported to be a white in
color. They told me that there was no quick moment to the
object, it just rose up rather slowly and as it reached the top
of the mountain this is where they lost sight of it. The craft
did not blink out, they thought it just crossed over the top and
maybe moved down the other side. They reported that whatever it
was, was huge.

The husband told me it was not a helicopter, no way !! He said
we were very close to this thing, and what noise it gave off was
minimal, except for this consent humming sound. The husband also
said area residents would have been blind not to see this as it
was so bright and large in size.

HBCC UFO Note: After I talked with the witness in the mall I
made arrangements and did go to visit the whole family earlier
today. I sat with all of them for a long period of time and I
can say this for certain. I believe they saw something really
strange as everyone was still very excited over what they saw
that evening. I also will be going back tomorrow to look around
the area where this object was reported to be hovering.

I also will be doing a live interview with CFBV/BVLD radio this
coming Monday and I am hoping that folks in the listening area
will come forward to report maybe seeing some of these strange
sights that took place on November 24, 2004 here in Houston,
B.C. I am still investigating the reported sightings.


Thank you to all the witnesses for their reports.


Brian Vike
Director HBCC UFO Research
Home - Phone 250 845 2189
email: hbccufo.nul
Website: http://www.hbccufo.com
Redirect: http://www.canadianufo.com HBCC UFO RESEARCH
Newsletter: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HBCC_UFO_Newsletter/

HBCC UFO Research
Box 1091 Houston
British Columbia
Canada - VOJ 1ZO







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               HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 11-27-04

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO Research <hbccufo.nul>
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 16:24:30 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 12:28:41 -0500
Subject: HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 11-27-04


HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings

Release Date: November 27, 2004


Dawson Creek, Northern B.C. Fluorescent Emerald Green Light

Date: Early 1970's
Time: Approx: 1:30 a.m.

This is my third sighting of what I am sure was not of this
planet in the last twenty-five years. The first was on our farm
6 miles from Dawson Creek in Northern BC. In the early 70's when
sitting with relatives approx. 1:30 in the morning. A large
fluorescent emerald green light came down on an angle stopped
and you could see a red light then shine below it and it came
straight down. The next day we went over to the field we were
sure it landed in and couldn't find anything. Four (non-
drinking) adults saw this. The two visiting from Alberta were
strong Pentecostals who do not believe in UFO's or any such
thing so I tried to explain it as a plane going down - which I
knew it wasn't and they said "You know that was no plane".

Thank you to the witness for the interesting report.

-----------------------

North Of Fort St. John Three Saucer Shaped Objects

Date: Early 1970s
Time: Early afternoon

I was going to an auction sale North of Fort St. John about 30
miles in quite a remote area. It was a cold bright day. Early in
the afternoon we could see the sun reflecting on something in
the sky. We pulled over and parked, and behind the only small
little cloud in the whole blue sky there were three saucer
shaped objects staying in one position. We sat at least 15 min.
and they did not move. There were no other vehicles or houses
around so I'm not sure if anyone else saw them. This would have
been in the early 70's.

Thank you to the witness for the interesting report.

-----------------

Picher Creek, Alberta Point Of Light

Date: October 1980
Time: 8:00 p.m.

Number of witnesses: 2
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Point of light.

Full Description of event/sighting: After reading an entry in
the 1970's from Lethbridge Alberta I thought I would share my
story as it seems very similar. I went along on a sheep hunting
trip with 3 other electricians that I was working with. We drove
west of Pincher Creek behind the Shell gas plant into a canyon
which was about 8 miles off the main road. Our truck broke down
and it was decided that 2 of us would stay with the broken truck
and 2 would walk back. Brian and I stayed with the truck which
was parked facing east. The night sky was brilliant and I
noticed what looked like a star bouncing around. I tried to
rationalize it. After watching it about 5 minutes I asked (name
removed) if he was watching it and he said he was.

This star/UFO was moving very fast, zipping back and forth doing
90 degree turns etc. I guessed that it was about 20 - 30 miles
away. It didn't get any closer to us. We watched it for at least
an hour and a half before I fell asleep...it was cold out -5
Celsius and we were in sleeping bags. Our partners showed up and
when I looked into the sky it was gone.

Last year in 2003 I shared this story with a very good friend of
mine that spends a lot of time in the area south of Pincher
Creek. He told me he has seen this light performance several
times now in the last few years. He has seen the object split
into 2 and sometimes 3.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

-----------------------

Aptos California, Santa Cruz County Large V Shaped Craft

Date: Approx 1984, late winter.
Time: Not known

Approx 1984, late winter, Aptos California, Santa Cruz County. I
was heading, I believe west. in the Rio Del Mar section on
Clubhouse Drive with 3 housemates. Through my driverside window
on the left, a large flying V was flying westward, over a house.
It was brown in color with an approx an 80 - 100 foot wingspan
(maybe larger), and was flying at an altitude of approx 80 - 100
feet. The craft was moving at maybe 3-5 MPH, and from the wings
and belly of the craft were white spotlights that were panning
the house and ground underneath. I slowed my Land Cruiser down
to watch, but didn't say a word to my passengers because it was
just too weird. At one point I decided to myself that it had to
be a military stealth bomber, which had just been brought
forward in the media as experimental aircraft. Moments later I
realized that it could only be a UFO because it was hovering so
slowly. I watched for about 20 seconds or so, and it kind of
disappeared when it reached a 45% angle in the sky.

Have there been any similar reported cases during this time
period and in this geographical area? Thanks

Thank you to the witness for the interesting report.

-----------------------

Smithers, B.C. Ball Of Fire Hovering Over Hudson Bay Mountain

Date: 1990s ?
Time: Between 11:00 p.m. & 12:30 a.m.

I made a call to a business in Smithers, British Columbia as I
was enquiring about a video program for my computer. I ended up
talking to a fellow and we discussed the program and got onto
talking about UFOs. This is when he told me he and his friends
had witnessed a very strange object sitting over Hudson Bay
Mountain one night some years back.

The witness said he and three friends were coming home from a
party one evening, all of the guys were still in high school at
the time. The man explained that it was a beautiful clear night
and they were driving west past St Joseph's Church when the
driver looked up onto Hudson Bay Mountain and could clearly see
what appeared to be a giant fireball sitting right over top the
mountain. The witness told me he looked away as he thought he
was seeing things, but once again the man young man looked up
and still saw the object over top the mountain.

He of course called out to his buddies to look at this strange
sight and they stop the vehicle and got out to observe the
object. As they all watched, it just sat hovering at
approximately 200 feet above the tree line. Eventually it
started moving, but at a very slow rate of speed. They were able
to watch the object for about 2 minutes in total, and heard no
sound. They felt if the object was that close they should have
heard some sound if it had of been an aircraft.

He described the color as being orange, yellow and green and
just a large ball of fire. The witness guessed the size to be
that of a normal sized car. The object moved down the
mountainside and towards the Twin Glacier at this slow travel.
All of a sudden the object, whatever it was shot off and over
the top of the mountain and was gone.

Thank you to the witness for the interesting report.

--------------------

Saskatoon, Saskatchewan A Triangle Rotating, Twisting and Turning

Date August 16, 2002
Time: Approx. 4:30 p.m

Our family was gathered in the back yard just sitting around
talking before lighting the BBQ. I wasn't even looking at the
sky, but something out of the corner of my eye caught my
attention, a white object, with no visible lights, was coming
towards us slowly from the north east.

My wife and I along with my two children just sat there in
amazement trying to figure out what it was as it came closer. It
was quite high up but yet not as high as the few scattered
clouds in the sky. But the object was large enough for us all to
see with the naked eye. We all knew it was no airplane as now it
had just stopped motionless, almost like it was trying to be
seen. My wife ran into the house and got the binoculars and
handed them to me. What I saw was a white globe, it looked
solid, but then started to kind of fade in and out, but moving
very slowly to the southeast. Of course by now my two boys, 11
and 13 where going nuts, yelling at me "let me see, let me see."
I handed the binoculars to my 13 year old, he was just silent,
then almost in a whisper he says "dad, it really is a UFO."

Then suddenly I noticed a dark object moving quite fast to the
west underneath the white object. Again looking through the
binoculars I tried to focus in on it. I still can't quite
describe what I saw. It was dark, it was not round, to me it
looked like it was changing shape as it was moving, it was very
confusing to me so I handed the binoculars to my wife and asked
her to try and describe what she saw. She described it
differently from what I thought I saw, but maybe it describes it
best. A triangle, rotating, twisting, turning, making it look
like its changing shape.

She gave the binoculars back to me, as I began to focus in on it
again, yet another object appeared just below the dark object,
so I focused in on that one. Now this one, I can describe, as
strange as it sounds, it reminded me as a Popsicle stick going
end over end, it was even brownish in colour. This was all
happening very quickly and I didn't want to miss anything. I
turned back to the part of the sky that the white object was
first seen, it was gone, then back to the area of the dark
trianglish object was, it was gone. They where all gone as
quickly as they appeared.

Then literally out of the blue (sky that is) another or the same
white globe appeared, this time larger, it sat motionless just
for a moment, as if it was waiting for us to see it, then
suddenly it took a very steep and fast decline from the sky to
the horizon north of the city.

We were all a bit in shock and trying to figure out what we just
saw. When you see things like this, you tend to not want it to
end, at least I didn't. Thinking it was all over, I was
searching the blue sky with the binoculars while listening to
everyone's comments. Then suddenly, a little light just appeared
exactly where I was looking. This was nothing like what we had
just witnessed, it was a sphere of light, very tiny, but you
could still see it with the naked eye. As soon as I pointed it
out to everyone, another would appear, then another right beside
it. One would disappear, another one or two would appear, all in
the same area, like they were dancing in and out of visual
contact. I would say at one given time, ten would be visible at
once. They didn't move much, it was like they were coming in and
going out, all at different times. There where a few clouds in
the sky at this time, but yet when one sphere went behind the
cloud, you could still see the glow. They were very high up, but
what a show. Again it was over as quickly as it begun, this
portion of the show was maybe 2 minutes. My family and I saw 4
different types of what people call UFOs in a very short period
of time.

We sincerely thank you for the service you are providing.

Thank you to the witness for the interesting report.

----------------

West Kootenay Region of British Columbia Large Bright Object

Date: March 29, 2004
Time: 2:00 a.m.

Number of witnesses: 2
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Large & bright - probably one.

Full Description of event/sighting: Both awake watching TV when
an extremely bright and large object went by the bedroom window.
Looked like it was flames (yellow mainly but blindingly bright)
but we decided it looked that way as it was passing behind a fir
tree outside our window. It traveled horizontally to the ground
and made no sound whatsoever. Saw reported sighting from an
airport but not naming it and think that it would have to have
been seen by the Castlegar Airport in B.C.

Additional Information:

It was partially overcast, not raining, not real clear and no
full moon that I recall. There was no tail or trail that we
could see. The object was traveling from West to East. Not good
at judging altitudes but laying in the same position on the bed
the next day and looking at the fir tree it had gone behind it
could not have been much above the tree tops traveling parallel
to the ground. Judging from the time the object stayed in view,
it would have had to be at least a few hundred feet long. Could
not tell the texture because of the extreme brilliance. Since
this was approx. 2 a.m. we were not looking for aircraft but
this could definitely not have been an aircraft and there was no
sound. We called the closest neighbor the next day but he said
he was sleeping and saw nothing. The object was visible long
enough for us both to say at the same time - "Holy crap, what is
that?" and then it was out of sight.

Thank you to the witness for the interesting report.

------------------------

Between Shelbourne And Alliston Ontario Black Ring Shaped Cloud

Date: November 3, 2004
Time: Between 12:00 p.m. and 3:00 p.m.

Message: Hello: I was intrigued to read about the UFO report for
November 22/23? 2004 for Caledon Ontario. It mentions the area
of Caledon being very active recently. This immediately perked
my memory of what I saw within the last month just north of the
Caledon area. I was driving along east highway 89 between
Shelbourne and Alliston Ontario which is about 30 Kilometres
north of Caledon(as the bird or UFO flies). It was mid afternoon
and the sky was absolutely blue and clear with the exception of
a little cloud formations near the horizon. To my front
left(NorthEast) as I was driving was a huge very black ring
shaped cloud all by itself. It must have been about 10-20
kilometres away from and looking at the map after, it seems to
have been just above the military base Borden. There was clearly
no source of smoke from the ground that would have or was
feeding this cloud. The ring must have been about 2 kilometers
thick with a diameter of 10 kilometres sighting between 2-5
kilometres in elevation.

Additional Information:

Hi Brian:

To answer some of your questions further: As far as date or time
I will have to try and get a job order pulled from the computer
at my workplace, this is the reason I was in the area that day,
this job order will have the date on it, from that I should be
able to get the approximate time as well (either way I will let
you know). As it stands right now I remember it being between 2-
6 weeks ago.

Because the cloud stood so much by itself in isolation and its
shape was very round and a big hole making it look like a ring
it struck me that it could not possibly be a 'cloud' , for this
reason that it was so strange I looked around in all directions
(in the sky and ground) for a possible link for a cause and
could not find anything (object) that would suggest a link to
this cloud object. The more I looked the stranger it seemed,
there wasn't even small 'atmospheric wisps' of other very small
clouds leading into or away from this cloud. Simply all by
itself in the clear blue sky. I don't remember seeing an
aircraft, I do remember wishing I had a camera. I looked at the
cloud for about 15 minutes while driving down #89 until my route
of travel took it out of my view.

The cloud didn't do anything, it just hung there standing still;
the atmospheric pressure was high that day, not cold but a nice
crisp day when nothing is moving very much. It seemed like it
would still be there if I came back and hour later.

Thank you to the witness for the interesting report.

--------------------------

Between Coquitlam And West Vancouver, B.C. Object Large Light

Date: November 25, 2005
Time: Between the hours of six and midnight .

Last night between the hours of six and midnight I saw what
appeared to be small aircraft flying back and forth between
Coquitlam and West Vancouver. Trouble is they only had a single
large steady white light in the nose and another in the tail,
along with as many as six white flashing strobe lights. I
checked several times with my binoculars but was unable to make
out any coloured lights or wings on these craft. Their speed and
altitude fitted right in with the rest of the air traffic flying
along that flight pattern. They may have been helicopters but I
can usually spot them right away and they always have the
appropriate lights. I checked several other planes and was able
to make out the fuselage but not on those ones. I guess they
were just more unknowns like the Yellow egg shaped object which
flew over a few weeks back.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

---------------------

Prince George, B.C. Bright Orange Light

Date: November 25, 2004
Time: Between 11:45 p.m. - 11:50 p.m.

Message: Hello Brian just dropping a quick note. Last night
somewhere between 11:45 p.m. - 11:50 p.m. November 25, I spotted
what possibly could be a UFO. I'm not 100 % certain yet what it
was, reason being is living here in Prince George you see alot
of aircraft coming and going so I can't say for certain I was
not looking at some airplane. But I will describe what I saw. I
was standing in my living room looking out my window. I saw a
orange object in the distance approaching from the Bulkley
Valley region, at first glance I thought it was a plane coming
in to land at the local airport, but what was odd about it was
as far as I'm aware of I don't think aircraft have big bright
orange lights on them. From were I was standing it looked like a
big orange ball of light. Any how I watched this light for a
matter of 5 minutes and it was hard to judge the height of this
craft in the sky, it being night. Plus I had no land marks to go
by. But what I had thought was landing was not because it
disappeared behind a cloud and I never saw it again. Maybe it
was nothing but an aircraft, but it just seemed odd at the time.

Thank you to the witness for the interesting report.

--------------------------

Phoenix, Arizona Possible Disc-Like Object Caught On Film (Video)

Date: November 25, 2004
Time: 1:39 p.m.

Date: November 25, 2004
Time: 1:42 p.m.

HBCC UFO Research Note: In the second clip for November 25,
2004, Time: 1:42 p.m. one can clearly see two objects in the sky
coming together. both video clips are very interesting indeed. I
will be holding off posting them to my website until the HBCC
UFO Research has been fully uploaded to the new hosting company.
hen I have posted the clips and photos I will re-post this
report with full credit to the person who took the footage and
links to where the footage can be found.

When we spoke a few days ago I was telling you how the last few
weeks the sightings seem to come to a complete stop. That
changed the other day as something streaked across the sky and
caught my attention. I ran into the house to grab my camera but
by the time I came out that object was gone but not for long. I
saw a white disc-like object hovering to the South of me about
3-5000' high. I immediately zoomed in and taped what you see on
the clip. The object is hovering in a horizontal position but
turns on its side and moved straight up extremely fast. It moved
behind the trees and I followed it through the leaves and
branches but eventually lost sight of it. I tried to follow the
projected path of the object through the tree but it never came
out where I thought it would. I also taped what you see on the
other clip in the same spot I saw the disc-like object. This
object came to a stop, hovered for a few seconds as if it was
waiting for the other object that came up next to it and then
they both went their different ways.

Thank you to the witness for the interesting report.

Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO Research Home - Phone 250 845 2189
email: hbccufo.nul Website: http://www.hbccufo.com
Redirect: http://www.canadianufo.com HBCC UFO RESEARCH
Newsletter At:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HBCC_UFO_Newsletter/

HBCC UFO Research
Box 1091 Houston
British Columbia
Canada - VOJ 1ZO







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Nov > Nov 28

                Re: Submission Of Additional Ad For Review -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 11:28:07 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 12:48:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Submission Of Additional Ad For Review -


>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 12:48:50 -0000
>Subject: Re: Submission Of Additional Ad For Review

>>From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci.nul>
>>To: johnny.whitaker.nul
>>Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 15:27:03 -0500 (EST)
>>Subject: Submission Of Additional Ad For Review

<snip>

>UFOs and the Military

>Researcher studying the history of Project Blue Book, the USAF's
>study into UFOs, would be interested to hear from any military
>personnel who have had a UFO sighting or who have information
>about Blue Book or related matters. All information will be
>treated in the strictest confidence.

>It sounds academic, it makes no accusations, and while you don't
>get to have your say, I'd suggest it's far more likely to be
>printed. I also suspect that your target audience is far more
>likely to respond to something academic sounding.

>I'd submit your advertisement under a cover note which said
>little more than "Please see the attached".

>Of course, you'd have to honor your promise of confidentiality,
>but it may well be that you can negotiate with any respondents
>on this point, and see if they are prepared to have their
>information used in some way.


I see where you're coming from on this, Sir. It's conventional
wisdom and easy to agree with. Very commendable. Sincerely.

But I have to remember that a half century of gentility,
collegiality, and professional behavior on our part has not
progressed ufology a pico-meter in that time. It may be that the
occasion approaches where we have to remove more of our blades
from our scabbards, if not brandish them outright, call the
spade a spade, and take some literary prisoners!

I have to stand with Mr. Bryant. It may be that his approach
would help break it loose for the collegiate professionals we
appreciate along with you, even if they have, in the aggregate,
been largely unsuccessful.


alienview.nul -:|:-
  www.AlienView.net









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   Nov > Nov 28

              Re: What Secrets Lie In Museum Vaults? - Rogerson

From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul>
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 17:33:44 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 12:50:46 -0500
Subject: Re: What Secrets Lie In Museum Vaults? - Rogerson


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 13:39:43 EST
>Subject: What Secrets Lie In Museum Vaults?

>I feel like that ending scene of "Raiders of the Lost Ark" where
>the Ark was secreted away in a warehouse full of a sea of
>unknown objects.

>I've got a lead given to me from an engineering pal of mine of
>what was found in the depths of a very famous museum.

<snip>

Seems like a classic friend of a friend story, like the tales of
locked hospital wards, secret bases etc. But its nice to see
museums getting in on the act.


Peter Rogerson








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   Nov > Nov 29

               Re: Alien Abductions & Coffee Enemas - Rogerson

From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul>
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 18:02:08 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 05:32:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Alien Abductions & Coffee Enemas - Rogerson


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 15:04:00 -0500
>Subject: Re: Alien Abductions & Coffee Enemas

>>Source: The New Haven Advocate - Connecticut

>>http://newhavenadvocate.com/gbase/Lifestyle/content?oid=oid:91687

>>11-25-04

>>Alien Abductions and Coffee Enemas
>>Or, the problem with being open-minded

>>by M.D and Steven Novella

>>I listened patiently as the UFO enthusiast explained how humans
>>were transplanted to the earth from another world by our alien
>>forebears.

>>"Then how do you explain the fact that humans share 98% of our
>>DNA with chimpanzees, and a genetic code will all life on
>>earth?" I asked.

>>"Well, I think you have to keep an open mind," was her starry-
>>eyed response.

><snip>

>>So let me turn the tables and humbly ask you, dear reader, to be
>>truly open-minded. Adhere to the advice of T.H. Huxley, who
>>wrote, "A wise man apportions his belief to the evidence." Keep
>>your brains tucked safely inside your skulls. Be open but not
>>gullible. And remember, it is better to think than to believe.

>Good advice. One problem: what one person considers to be
>'evidence' - i.e., "To me this is evidence of ..." -  another
>person considers to be irrational 'belief' - i.e., "You believe
>that is valid evidence, but I don't."

>A lawyer once told me that in court a case is generally _not_
>made on the physical evidence because that can be disputed by
>the experts. If a case is made (one way or the other) it is
>generally based on the circumstantial evidence. Consider the
>recent Scott Peterson case leading to conviction or "O.J." who
>wasn't convicted.

I imagine that for most of the scientific community what would
constitute evidence for the ETH would be sample of organic
tissuse having no genetic relationship to any terrestrial
organism, and probably based on some other complex organic
molecule rather than DNA. For evidence of an exotic (though not
necessarily ET) technology a manufactured article made of say
element 125 would be to say the least intriguing. I image a
multiple completely indepedent witness landing and occupant
report, backed up by several multi angled video recordigns,
CCTV, webcam, mobile phone images, still phots etc and physcla
traces would be very interesting.

The problem for those who support the ETH etc is that nothing
like this exists, only stories, ambigious so called physical
evidence and a handful of contentious photographs. The more
ufology relies on 40-60 year old alleged memories, and ever
wilder abduction tales the less the scientific community will
take you seriously.

But the real problem maybe that for many, perhaps most
ufologists, the subject is more akin to a religion rather than a
science. Just see how people react to crticial commentaries on
classic cases, with the usual denounciations of skeptibunker,
pelicanist etc of anyone who proposes a solution to a ufo case
which does not involve non human intelligences of some kind. A
reaction as though someone had challegned their deeply held
religious faith. I suppose the next step will be to denounce
sceptics as hybrids and burn them at the nearest stake. Peter
Rogerson







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   Nov > Nov 29

                        Re: All Things Pelican - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 11:48:38 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 05:34:45 -0500
Subject: Re: All Things Pelican - King


>From: Bill Weber <wweber1.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 20:01:45 -0500
>Subject: Re: All Things Pelican

>>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 07:51:23 -0700
>>Subject: All Things Pelican

>>All Things Pelican:

>>Skepti-bunkers, Pelicanists and CSICOPians give me a pain.
>>Well, not just me. Probably most of the known universe. I can
>>tell that's a fact because of the millions of coffee stains.

>snip>

>But when all is said and done, it really sounds to me as though
>you're short on family values. As a great man once said,
>"Families is where our nation finds hope, where wings take
>dream." The American people wants a researcher that appeals to
>the angels. As always, our priorities is our faith.

>As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents,
>more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some
>great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach
>their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned
>by a downright moron. -- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

Hi Bill,

Ouch! Right in the champagne unit... <g>


Kyle








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                      Re: All Things Pelican - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 10:50:41 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 05:37:40 -0500
Subject: Re: All Things Pelican - Connors


>From: Bill Weber <wweber1.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 20:01:45 -0500
>Subject: Re: All Things Pelican

>>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 07:51:23 -0700
>>Subject: All Things Pelican

<Snip>

>Calm down, Wendy. We all know how hard it is for you to put food
>on your family and accept the love from your OBGYN, but it
>sounds as though you've gotten into some dangerous, socialist
>Canadian pharmacuticals. As you may already know, drug therapies
>are replacing a lot of medicines as we used to know it.

Yeah, them dang Canadian's are a shifty lot if I ever saw one.
You don't know what they are putting in their pharmacuticals.
You don't want your grandma crossing the border to buy her heart
medication, because by the time the major American pharmacutical
companies send the drugs to Canada, they are magically tainted
and dangerous, thus can't be used by any grandma anywhere. Where
will it all end?

>We cannot flip flop. The correct strategy with skeptibunkees
>is to be resolute, resolutely. If you don't stand for anything,
>you don't stand for anything. Fight them on their ground,
>rather than waiting for them to fight us on ours. We cannot let
>terriers and rogue skeptics hold this List hostile - or hold our
>allies hostile.

Dang toot'n, Pal! We need to build Whack a Pelican machine to
begin training our children in this ever-ending war for truth,
justice and the Corporate way!

>But when all is said and done, it really sounds to me as though
>you're short on family values. As a great man once said,
>"Families is where our nation finds hope, where wings take
>dream." The American people wants a researcher that appeals to
>the angels. As always, our priorities is our faith.

Yeah. You're right. I'm a valueless cretin. I stupidly believe
in non-Bush things such as: Truth, Justice, Compassion for those
less fortunate; companies are built by blood and sweat of people
and they should share amply in the spoils because it is the true
American way; religion is a personal journey and not the journey
to be forced on my neighbors or involved in my politics; that
euthenasia by consent is more merciful than crippling or killing
young men and women in a war with Iraq that was not morally just
at the time it began; energy, environmental and homeland
security policies should be done openly with respect to the
citizen, than in back room agreements by those with hidden
agendas; not all people can be educated to the point of a
college degree and they should still equally share in the work
ethic that we once endeared and good paying jobs even if they
are not from a wealthy family; that our nations borders are open
to all if they come and apply legally; that one national
language prevents large scale chaos and puts everyone on an
equal playing field; that Capitalism, without regulation and
oversight, leads to totalitarianism; those whose have no home
should have one regardless of the logistics; that our relations
with our neighbors are congenial and not subversive where we can
learn and fine tune our own foreign relations; the UN is totally
broken and corrupt, thus needs to be torn down and rebuilt; that
all people everywhere have the right to expect their leaders to
ensure they have adequate food, clean water, medical care,
housing and clean affordable and abundant energy, before all
other interests...

Well, my values are not those of the nations new moral path
and I cry much during my prayers to the Goddess when my soul
needs comfort. I'm a heathen. <G>


Sigh...

Wendy Connors
www.fadeddiscs.com







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               Re: What Secrets Lie In Museum Vaults? - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 13:03:56 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 05:39:26 -0500
Subject: Re: What Secrets Lie In Museum Vaults? - Boone


>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 17:33:44 +0000
>Subject: Re: What Secrets Lie In Museum Vaults?

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 13:39:43 EST
>>Subject: What Secrets Lie In Museum Vaults?

>>I feel like that ending scene of "Raiders of the Lost Ark" where
>>the Ark was secreted away in a warehouse full of a sea of
>>unknown objects.

>>I've got a lead given to me from an engineering pal of mine of
>>what was found in the depths of a very famous museum.

><snip>

>Seems like a classic friend of a friend story, like the tales of
>locked hospital wards, secret bases etc. But its nice to see
>museums getting in on the act.


Peter Rogerson, yes, I know, I know, I know!!!

I hate the 'friend of a friend of a friend twice removed' stuff
and I thought much before posting but made sure I had a name and
background check first or I wouldn't have posted.

The thing that caught my attention was when I was younger and up
to this day I would get a call to examine some artifact. Only
reason being is I grew up around top anthropolgists and
archaeologists and they respect my opinion.

I was suprised at the volume of things dug up and how much of it
is damned near microscopic! Sometimes these specialists can lock
onto a tooth or a fragment and rebuild an entire skeleton. I
know how they do it but it still amazes me. I've seen
specialists take years to go over a handful of what looked like
dust or sand to me but through an expert's eyes were clues to
bigger things.

Not enough manpower nor money in these fields. Yet when it comes
to manufactured items, that calls on chemical as well as
metallurgists etc. Some items forged, as in metal forges, from
places history tells us people didn't have them.  Many many
anomalies that are sitting on shelves til better technologies
come along to determine their age and origins plus getting other
specialists to peer review. That's costly and time consuming.

Yet from what I'm told, some artifacts aren't so small and meet
the criteria of being far older than we've assumed mankind's
ability to produce back then.

One thing I've learned since college is that just wait a few
years and everything you've learned will be overturned. Things
just keep getting older the more we dig.


Best,

Greg








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                               The Titan Bunny

From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 22:06:28 +0000 (GMT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 05:43:02 -0500
Subject: The Titan Bunny


You may have heard of Titan Man riding an insect? Now we have
found the 'Titan Bunny' sat in the radio snow not very far away
from the 'Titan Man' on inverted color NASA Radar images;

http://www.colsweb.com/TitanBunny.htm

Also published is an inverted color (or negative) very large
image of the whole of the original NASA Radar image for folk to
hunt down other interesting animals :-)

http://www.colsweb.com/TitanRadarMapFromNASA_InvertedColors.jpg


a 1.4 MB download.

By the way. We use a method only known to us to initially find
these figures amoungst all the stray dots (called radio snow)
using a very special PC monitor which was originally discovered
by accident.


Happy hunting,

Col
colsweb.com







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                            Ufology As A Science

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 14:25:55 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 05:44:38 -0500
Subject: Ufology As A Science


Ufology, as a science, actually exists. Here is why it has grown
from a small group of open-minded people with an interest in the
subject to a massive number of people that spans into the
hundreds of millions worldwide.

All sciences focus on specific subjects of interest. Thus,
Physics, Astronomy, etc. are subjects of those groups who share
a common interest, whether amateur or professional, over time.

Ufology then has one of the prerequisites in being a science. It
is a subject of people and groups who share a common interest,
whether amateur or professional, over time. Thus, Ufology has
over half a Century of time that it has been a subject of common
interest.

Sciences are built upon a portion of those who share the common
interest. Those who actively participates and devotes the
majority of their time and efforts to the knowledge base. A
knowledge base that is always in flux as the sciences develop.

Built upon decades of databasing, trace collecting, on-site
investigation, recordings, photographs and witness statements,
from all professions and walks of life, that gives testament to
the legitimacy to Ufology being a dedicated science. This
massive knowledge base is always in flux as the science
develops.

For those groups interested in a scientific subject who may not
be able to devote the majority of their efforts to exploring the
subject in detail, each science teaches and informs at all
levels of interest the knowledge base, by lecture, published
works, recordings, etc. This allows for everyone interested to
participate in the advancement of the science by the
professional.

In Ufology there are only a few that actually make monetary gain
from their professional standing. Money has nothing to do with
being a professional in any science. Being a professional is
learning a large amount of information regarding the science and
then producing tangible data to add to the knowledge base. If
support monies are available from the interested group, it is
available to the sciences by individual or group contributions.
These are the patrons of science.

Within Ufology is a knowledge base that was painstaking
assembled by specialists in the subject for over half a Century.
It has been refined from raw data gathered by the professional
who ensured field investigation and professional reporting.
Professionals devoted to ensuring newsclipping files were
preserved for reference or who began the databases that today
hold hundreds of thousands of cases world-wide. Those
professionals specializing in giving legality to the science of
Ufology, maintain the documents. There are professionals
maintaining the trace elements from cases, etc. This knowledge
base is shared as in any science.

Ufology teaches and informs at all levels of interest the
knowledge base, by lecture, published works, recordings, etc.
This allows for everyone interested to participate in the
advancement of the science by the professional. If support
monies are available from the interested group, it is available
to the science by individual or group contributions. These are
the patrons of scientific Ufology.

Halls of Science literally means that each discipline developed
over time a structured system. This was in the form of research
centers and schools to teach future generations and maintain the
centers. Funding comes by govenmental needs or needs of
commerce. At the bottom end comes the funding by those
interested in the subject who buy books, attend lectures and
events. They stay informed and continue to participate by
supporting various researchers.

Ufology doesn't have a Hall of Science. Yet. It has evolved to
the stage that individual archives are being assembled and the
knowledge base is becoming more cohesive. Over time the
archivists, or historians of Ufology, will continue to integrate
the knowledge base into a research center. Specialists are
teaching the subject and Ufology, as a science, continues to
evolve.

I wonder who will command the first Chair of Ufology when it
comes. Perhaps you will be the one. Yes, you. With your eye on
the sky, wonder in your heart, your mind open and your God given
imagination intact.


Wendy Connors
www.faddeddiscs.com








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                     Does Anyone Remember Billy Goodman?

From: Michael Christol <spachopr.nul>
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 21:05:00 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 05:51:05 -0500
Subject: Does Anyone Remember Billy Goodman?


Greetings,

Does anyone remember Billy Goodman?

Billy preceded "Art Bell" and "George Norory" on Coast To
Coast late night.


Mike







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                    Paranormal Phenomena Assessment Study

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 21:19:38 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 05:56:18 -0500
Subject: Paranormal Phenomena Assessment Study


Source: The United States Department of Defense

http://www.defenselink.mil/pubs/foi/paranormal_briefing.pdf

WN-8019-ARPA

January 1973


Paranormal Phenomena -- Briefing On A Net Assessment Study

P. T. Van Dyke and M. L. Juncoas

It's a blast from the Cold War past, when some people worried
whether Soviet scientists would out-weird the West with such
otherworldly abilities as mind control.

The 33-page report discusses "possible military applications of
paranormal phenomena." For example, 'It would not be
conceptually difficult... to imagine the utility of
psychokinesis (if feasible) in disrupting the electrical systems
associated with an ICBM's guidance program.' The report warns
that if such phenomena exist, 'the thrust of Soviet research
appears more likely to lead to explanation, control and
application than is U.S. research.'








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                       John Ford's Southaven Footage?

From: Scott Carr <sardonica.nul>
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 23:29:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 05:58:46 -0500
Subject: John Ford's Southaven Footage?


Dear List

I'm currently in development of a paranormal television show
potentially for The Discovery Channel, an episode of which we
are considering focusing on The Brookhaven UFO Crash in Long
Island. As such, I've been searching for some time now for a
copy (for purchase, if necessary) of the VHS footage that was
sent to John Ford and which allegedly depicts, in Ford's own
words:

"By one of the firemen you could see a small gray body. The
strange thing about this body is that it had a huge head, twice
the size of a person, only about five feet tall and could only
weigh about 80 pounds. There were two more alien bodies at the
scene. One sitting up against a tree the other lying on the
ground, missing an arm. "

If anyone has a copy of this footage which they'd be willing to
share, or if anyone could point me in the direction of obtaining
it, I'd be eternally gratefull!

Thanks and Happy Holidays!!

--Scott C. Carr

Chief Editor, The Flying Saucer Gazette
www.erols.com/sardonica

Apocalypse fiction Magazine
www.apocalypseficiton.com







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                   Re: How Is UK Ufology Faring? - Gevaerd

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 07:24:16 -0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 06:03:59 -0500
Subject: Re: How Is UK Ufology Faring? - Gevaerd


>From: Roy Hale <vinyl.lover10.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 23:08:24 -0000
>Subject: How Is UK Ufology Faring?


>How high is the readership for the USA and Brazilian UFO
>Magazines?

Brazilian UFO Magazine has a monthly circulation of 44,000
issues in Brazil and in Portugal, and a few other Portuguese-
speaking countries. We estimate that we have about 100,000
readers monthly. This number excludes Brazilian UFO Magazine's
website readers, that can easily reach 15,000 per day.

Future plans include the release of an English version of the
magazine by April or May 2005.


Best regards,

A. J. Gevaerd, editor
Brazilian UFO Magazine
www.ufo.com.br











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                  First Quasi-Satellite Of Venus Discovered

From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 15:52:56 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 06:10:56 -0500
Subject: First Quasi-Satellite Of Venus Discovered


Hi Everyone!

We all know that the closest planet to us in space is Venus, the
Earth's 'twin' planet. This very bright celestial object is
sometimes seen in the sky at dawn or dusk and is often mistaken
for a UFO.

Although the Earth has a large natural satellite, the Moon, and
at least two known asteroid companions, Cruithne and 2002 AA29
(both objects co-discovered by astronomers/near Earth asteroid
dynamicists at York University), Venus and the Mercury were
believed to be the only two planets in our solar system without
moons or asteroid companions, until now.

Now astronomers, including Brasser and Innanan from York U. and
Wiegart who is now with University of Western Ontario, have
discovered that Venus has a small quasi-satellite of its own.
This object, 2002 VE68, has the same orbitial plane and orbital
period around the Sun as Venus has. Seen from Venus, this quasi-
satellite seems to orbit the planet once every Venusian year.

What is exciting about this new quasi-satellite of Venus is that
its highly elliptical orbit takes it as close to the Sun as
Mercury and as far away as the Earth. This near-Earth asteroid
would make an ideal future manned platform for studying the
inner solar system and could easily be resupplied from Earth or
from stations on or orbiting the other two inner planets.

If this quasi-satellite of Venus has indeed occupied it present
orbit for about 7000 years, then I suspect it would cast further
doubt that the planet Venus is a relatively newcomer to the
inner solar system, at least according to Velikovsky (author of
'Worlds in Collision') and his interpretation of certain
Biblical passages and other historical accounts regarding
catastrophies in ancient times.

The number of new worlds and smaller bodies discovered within
our own solar system has increased at a phenomenonal rate in
recent years. So has our understanding and amazement about them.
For example, just look at never before seen features on Titan,
Saturn's largest satellite and a world just a little smaller
than Mars. How many more surprises are we in for when the
European spaceprobe Huygens lands on this uncanningly Earth-
 like world in January.

http://spaceflightnow.com/cassini/041124titan.html

Our knowledge and understanding of our immediate backyard of
space is changing so rapidly that astronomy books more than a
decade or two old are now largely obsolete. Just imagine the
nearly infinite possibilities out there waiting to surprise and
amaze us among the many yet undiscovered planets orbiting
distant stars that are now believed to outnumber the number
stars in the entire universe.

Unfortunately, many of mankind's big questions still remain
unanwered, including the one that asks if we are alone in the
universe. Maybe the European Huygens flying saucer-shaped lander
will provide us with more compelling evidence in support of the
afirmative view.


Nick Balaskas






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                The Encyclopedic Sourcebook Of UFO Religions

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 09:52:04 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 07:03:57 -0500
Subject: The Encyclopedic Sourcebook Of UFO Religions


Encyclopedic Sourcebook of UFO Religions
From Austin Cline, Your Guide to Agnosticism / Atheism.

http://atheism.about.com/od/bookreviews/fr/EncycUFOs.htm

Guide Rating -

Recent years have seen a great deal of growth in what might be
called "UFO  religions." These are faith communities based not
upon gods or demons, but  rather aliens and flying saucers.
Followers of these religions haven't  exactly displaced
traditional religions, but their influence on society  has grown
- and who knows what the future might bring?

Summary

Title: The Encyclopedic Sourcebook of UFO Religions
Author: edited by James R. Lewis
Publisher: Prometheus Books
ISBN: 1573929646

Pro:
- Very comprehensive resource covering a wide variety of material and
  issues

Con:
- Expensive - not at all for the casual reader

Description:
-  Collection of scholarly essays about UFO religions

-  Explores psychological and sociological issues relating to UFO
   religious communities

-  Argues that there are common themes in all UFO religious movements


Book Review

It is a good idea for anyone interested in the study of religion
to gain a  better understanding of this particular religious
movement - one which has  so many similarities to traditional
religions but which is also an  outgrowth of modern society and
modern science. To that end, James R.  Lewis has edited a volume
of essays on these religious groups: The  Encyclopedic
Sourcebook of UFO Religions.

A noted expert in new religious movements, Lewis has created an
 authoritative resource for both scholars and students. The
title is  somewhat misleading, I think, because an
"encyclopedia" brings to mind a  comprehensive reference book,
alphabetically organized and detailing the  basic structure,
history, and beliefs of various religious groups. This  book
isn't like that.

It is "encyclopedic" because it covers an incredible amount of
ground and  the extensive appendices explain basic beliefs and
history to an amazing  degree. The "meat" of the book, however,
is in the nearly 400 pages and  twenty articles that address all
manner of issues relating to UFO  religions: the role UFOs play
in American society, how some of these  religions see the world
as a dangerous place, how believers react when  prophecies fail
to come true, etc.

Why have UFO religions become popular not just in America, but
also in  other places like Canada, Europe, and Taiwan? A great
deal of insight can  be gained from the study of the Cargo Cults
of the South Pacific. In these  religious movements, people look
forward to an "End Time" when current  inadequacies will be made
up for when "cargos" of Western consumer goods  are delivered.
This delivery is expected to be simultaneously a resurgence  of
material prosperity as well as a spiritual salvation or
liberation.

Followers of UFO religions have similar expectations. Current
ecological,  spiritual, and social problems will be resolved
once superior aliens  arrive and deliver to us not only their
superior technology, but also  their superior spiritual
abilities which will allow us to overcome hatred,  war, bigotry,
and so forth. Also like the Cargo Cults, the UFO religions  are
millennarian in nature, looking forward to a time when a lost
paradise  can be recreated on Earth.

Although their most prominent feature is belief in aliens and
UFOs, it  shouldn't be assumed that these religious groups are
entirely new in their  orientation. On the contrary, they
frequently incorporate much from other  religions.

It's unlikely that they would be so successful otherwise. Some
use beliefs  from Theosophy and American spiritualism. Others
make use of traditional  Christian and Jewish ideas.

Raelians, for example, believe that many past religious
teachers, like  Jesus and the Buddha, were actually sent by
aliens to teach humanity  things we should know at culturally
and historically appropriate times.  Rael himself (an
alien/human hybrid like Jesus) is simply the most recent  (and
final) prophet in a long line of prophets. Only now are we ready
to  understand that these teachers in the past weren't
representing gods but,  rather, beings from other planets -
 beings who plan to come to Earth soon  and complete their
revelation to and education of humanity.

This book is not for the casual reader or anyone with only a
passing  interest in UFOs and religion. It's expensive and it's
not always an easy  read. It is, however, the most comprehensive
and scholarly resource out  there in a single volume. So, for
those who do have a serious interest in  these issues, this is
probably a must-have book; for people with a more  casual
interest in the subject, I recommend Lewis' earlier book Odd
Gods,
which includes a section on several UFO religious groups.

c. 2004 About, Inc. All rights reserved. A PRIMEDIA Company.







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                       Re: All Things Pelican - Weber

From: Bill Weber <wweber1.nul>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:05:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:08:33 -0500
Subject: Re: All Things Pelican - Weber


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 11:48:38 -0600
>Subject: Re: All Things Pelican

>>From: Bill Weber <wweber1.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 20:01:45 -0500
>>Subject: Re: All Things Pelican

>>>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
>>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 07:51:23 -0700
>>>Subject: All Things Pelican

>>>All Things Pelican:

>>>Skepti-bunkers, Pelicanists and CSICOPians give me a pain.
Well, not just me. Probably most of the known universe. I can
tell that's a fact because of the millions of coffee stains.

>>snip>

>>But when all is said and done, it really sounds to me as
>>though you're short on family values. As a great man once said,
>>"Families is where our nation finds hope, where wings take
>>dream." The American people wants a researcher that appeals to
>>the angels. As always, our priorities is our faith.


>Ouch! Right in the champagne unit... <g>


Hi, Kyle,

The man is prolific, and it is possible to write on almost any
subject using nothing but Bushisms. I only changed them slightly
in order to form complete sentences. After a few more faith-
based legislative manipulations, we won't even have to worry
about that little detail.

What I do find striking after reading hundreds of his quotations
compared with an equal number of UpDates posts, is how what
scores points in his administration seems to be the exact
opposite of what is valued on this list. Maybe appeal for full
disclosure shouldn't be based on evidence, scientific method, or
logic. They don't like that sort of talk. We should argue
there's an alien tie-in to the rapture.


Best,

Bill








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                            Firestorm - A Review

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:19:08 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:10:50 -0500
Subject: Firestorm - A Review


Firestorm

Ann Druffel's Biography of Ufologist James McDonald

A Review By Alfred Lehmberg

Dr. James E. McDonald, seminal ufologist and a man of undeniably
objective science, was a man who might be observed at two,
seemingly disparate, levels. On one level he was exactly what
our suspect society stridently proclaims it prefers in its
citizenship: Intelligence, Courage, Self-Improvement, Civic
Involvement, Sterling Productivity -- he was an asset in every
form and a total benefit to humankind's elevation and
advancement on every level... On the other hand he was a hapless
fool, _however_ magnificent...

I think both observations are correct as strongly as I believe
that he can be congratulated and otherwise lauded at both of
these levels. At once, Dr. McDonald's story _is_ a hard lesson
and a much needed, certainly gainful, inspiration to us all.

This is what was drawn from Anne Druffel's powerful,
informative, and very well woven... excitingly readable...
biography of James McDonald, entitled "Firestorm".

Dr. McDonald, by way of introduction, was a good man, a kind
man, a renaissance man, and a family man; he was a man
instrumental, key actually, in elevating the status of aggregate
ufology to the level of seriousness that it remotely enjoys...
against _all_ odds... today. Yet, today, he is almost totally
unknown even by those with more than a passing interest in the
field.

This is a tragedy beyond debate. Ms. Druffel, in a near peerless
effort, would put that error aright.

Ms. Druffel portrays the Physicist James E. McDonald, accurately
it would seem, as a highly respected world class research
scientist and much beloved teacher, academic coach, and
educator. A renowned atmospheric physicist, he was a nascent
prototypical ecologist, an incisive social scientist, and a
master of diverse multiple subjects - a brilliant man in _every_
regard. He changed the minds of hostile governments, steered
academic boards, chaired lofty research sections, and headed
significant causes. Then he got interested in UFOs...

I've written before about an insidious social aspect of our
hijacked society I tentatively call the "Mothman Futility
Mechanism."  The sufferer of this mechanism is an otherwise
rational person innocently encountering an aspect of the 'highly
strange'. In a justifiably passionate investigation of that very
_real_ strangeness, this person is destroyed, in one way or
another, as a result of paying an awful and inevitable (...and
unfair!) 'penalty' for the pursuit of that enigma's teasing
challenge... imposed by that non-elected leadership mentioned
before. Such was Dr. McDonald.

Ms. Druffle writes a compelling cameo, indeed, for the
"Mechanism" in action. It is portrayed, exceptionally well, in
the heartbreaking (and heart broken) subject of her startling
biography.

This fine man, by step, increment, and seeming design was
progressively failed by society, its 'science', and by those
closest to him. He would pay more than most for his provoked
'transgression'. He would be (...perhaps deliberately!)
aggravated to suffer deeply un-mitigating depressions he found,
at last, that he could no longer endure. Indeed, Druffel
succinctly conveys how he would be inexorably driven over the
cliffs of the blackest despair. He would be goaded, lead
actually - drawn out on a precarious limb after years of
government duplicity, institutional subterfuge, and agency
chicanery... and then sawn off.

With great deliberation and at the nadir of this abject
hopelessness, he took his own life? Only perhaps...

His _was_ the kind of intelligent effort and efficacious
artifice the aforementioned agencies, institutions, and
governments would want to finesse for a managed failure and
conveniently thwarted success, one might suspect when reading
between Druffel's lines. Indeed, I recall that many of the major
players on the ufological scene have been documented as being
drawn down the same kinds of primrose path ending so tragically
for Dr. McDonald, a reason why his story is a pointed lesson for
the observer of it.

Vallee wrote about Linda Moulton Howe and Stanton Friedman being
played. Hynek and Ruppelt wrote about the many hundreds of
credible witnesses who initiate a report and then, abruptly,
don't follow up on their testimony. Dolan and Jacobs make
rationally credible cases for an unelected government's
ufological interference and manipulation... and worse things.

_Worse_ things, reader...

Given today's realities one could surmise many reasons why
someone of Dr. McDonald's caliber and propitious drive would
have to be 'stopped'... one way or another. The mechanisms used
against the good doctor are obvious and not so obvious, Druffle
more than intimates.

Not the least of these jealous mechanisms of a hostile
mainstream were the scurvy tactics of otherwise inexplicable
persons such as Philip Klass and Edward Condon et al, Druffel
informs _this_ reader. These were shallow men without
imagination and courage, at best. At worst, they were drunk on
their own baseless hubris and perhaps even cooperating drones
for the conjectured unelected leadership already mentioned.

Both were two-faced authoritarian murmurers with a predilection
for whisper campaigning, name-calling, hate mongering, and the
yellowest of yellow presses. _They_ were the hackish agents of
stupefying misrepresentation and the instruments of crass
deception or misinformation. _They_ were the blindsiding back-
shooters and the artless shadow-snipers. _They_ are the reason
the rest of us are reluctant to be bold!

These, and others like them (known and unknown), were the
cowardly hurdles that Dr. McDonald was compelled to clear.
_They_ were the cheaters. _They_ were the liars. _They_,
themselves (!), were what they were pretending to warn us
against.

Dr. McDonald, on the other hand Druffel writes, was only a
genuine scientist of the first water made aware, as a result of
his researches, that a significant number of UFO reports could
_not_ have prosaic explanations! He was intrigued. He was also
demonstrably and justifiably _aghast_ that his much revered
science, in the person of the military and the scientists it
employed, was not taking a remotely competent look at it. That
UFOs should be exhaustively investigated was abundantly obvious
to Dr. McDonald, along with few significant others. He
understood, all too clearly, that they were _not_ properly
investigated.

So, he readily took up, as a man who is not a coward _will_, the
campaign to bring mainstream science on line for that competent
investigation. We are well served, ultimately, that he did.

For his trouble, Druffel notes, he was "bait and switched",
drawn out over empty air with high-level and well connected
promises of financial support necessary for a quality
investigation (which, carrot-like, _never_ materialized), and he
(along with his family) was phone-tapped and threateningly
followed in _obvious_ ways. Concurrently, even as McDonald is
hobbled and persecuted in his _righteous_ study of the problem,
Edward Condon throws _away_ a half million dollars in government
grants for a negatively biased foregone conclusion regarding
UFOs... that he would later foist on the scientific community
and a hapless public, very nearly ruining the whole ufological
enterprise with his patent obfuscation of it, out of hand! The
bastard! Verily.

Condon and Klass, et al, were too little, too late for a
complete destruction of the nascent ufology, it seems, as
Druffel points out with ready alacrity. Condon was clearly and
auspiciously identified, by McDonald, even before the formal
'report' was released (!) as a duplicitous ax-grinder who
apparently had not even read the report which he chaired and for
which he was writing the conclusion!

McDonald also made decisively short work of Philip Klass'
ludicrous expository, too. Klass was, summarily, inarguably, and
effortlessly _dismissed_!

But for McDonald's sterling science, faultless logic, expansive
intelligence, and stalwart bravery, the bucket of cold water
that was poured on UFOs by these two might have snuffed out the
interest in them, altogether! McDonald was, truly, _key_ in
keeping them alive for subsequent generations. Druffel makes
this clear.

Oh, but what McDonald might have done with the half million
dollars that Condon just pissed away on his fake 'study'... I
don't think it unlikely that humanity couldn't already be living
expressive lives in the asteroid belt as a result... a living
ring of humanity around our sun... a glittering halo of
progressive humankind living between the orbits of Mars and
Jupiter. I digress...

Why was Dr. McDonald a fool, then? Everything expressed thus far
would seem to indicate that he was a fool's very antithesis, and
he was, good reader, he was.

But he was also a boy scout and a believer. Not a 'believer' in
the paranormal or a 'believer' in UFOs, but a believer in a
Government of the people, by the people, and for the people as a
working reality. He had a boy scout's confidence in an
institution of science that went where the data went and not
where it could, itself, be driven. He believed in _demonstrable_
right and the courage of _tested_ convictions, not easy
convenience, untested faith, and profitable complacency! He
believed in the rule of law, the rationality of due process, and
the efficacious profits of professional behavior; he believed in
the inevitable elevations and advancements discovered in frank
open-mindedness, and he believed in the certain ultimate rewards
found in a passionate investigation for the TRUTH... truth
though heavens fall...

McDonald's 'belief' was that his society was an accurate
reflection of the preceding. It was not then. It is not now.

Dr. McDonald, astonishingly (...even as he can't really be
blamed, one discovers!), believed he fought his scientific
battles on a field that was remotely _level_! The monumentally
magnificent _fool_, reader... forgetting for a moment that it is
exactly that kind of fool that _this_ writer, and Ms. Druffel I
suspect, aspire to be and always admire... the only
'foolishness' we'd insist upon! Fairness, Rationality,
Forthcoming-ness, Progressiveness, Consistency, Intelligence,
and Individual Respect one could take for granted!

That _any_ other path... is back-stepping inane insanity...

Apparent foolishnesses, all, given the state of the 'union'
today and half a century's ufological denial, extra-normal
dismissal, and thoughtlessly executed and canted denunciation by
profit taking pelicanists...

These were the presumptions Dr. McDonald held, writing off the
inconsistencies of science he witnessed as a monumental cock-up
of crass incompetence... not what it more than likely was... a
monumental cover-up of crafted duplicity!

...And one not in our best interests I'd suspect, nor, I
predict, would Ms Druffel. Those who 'have' would keep on
'having' _without_ regard to the sensibilities of those who
'have' not.

Would that McDonald had been better able to take stock of his
culture's duplicity, he might have proceeded along more
successful lines. Druffle points out a few occasions where
information held out on him by knowledgeable authority provoked
assumptions he was making regarding the veracity of professional
persons he was otherwise forced to deal with... more
encouragement outwards on that precipitous limb. These were the
officious anti-intellectuals and ethically bankrupt
authoritarian toads such as Klass, Condon, Menzel, a host of
intelligence operatives, wind-sensing (and passing!)
politicians, and timid academic functionaries... betrayers of
truth, all!

Verily -- Ann Druffel is clear that Dr. McDonald was a fine,
upstanding, and intelligent man of ethical consistency and rare
courage who was betrayed by persons closest to him... betrayed
when those persons _knew_ he was on the right track, _doing_ the
right thing, and doing it in _exactly_ the right way!

Where was the doctor's wife when he had the future by the
shirttails and enigma by the scruff? Where were his learned
colleagues who knew he was right (!) when McDonald was
blindsided by the convenient bias of pompous detractors who'd
have to scale a ladder to buff his shoe-tops? Where were his
friends? What had _they_ done in the aftermath to keep Dr.
McDonald alive, then and for the future?

Dr. McDonald's story is a hard lesson because we are reminded of
the prices that are sometimes demanded for the pursuit of human
advancement, and he is a wonderful inspiration when we recall
that his name will be remembered long after the names of Klass
and Condon and Menzel are less than ignoble dust.

In closing... this is a book of such power, intelligence, and
accuracy that it has compelled this writer to reassess all of
Ms. Druffle's past work in a new, more interested and attentive
light. It is that kind of book. Not to diminish the volume in
any way, it could be a dazzling film featuring Leam Neeson or
Russell Crowe. They might do Mac justice...

"Firestorm"! The very title of Ann Druffel's book is an
astonishing hint to just how close McDonald may have been to
putting us in the asteroid belt to which I'd alluded earlier...

Be that as it may, I am improved, fortified, and emboldened with
the reading of it. I'd suggest you would be, too. See:

http://www.5thworld.com/Firestorm/ for more details.


Read on!

alienview.nul -:|:-
  www.AlienView.net







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               Re: First Quasi-Satellite Of Venus Discovered -

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 11:49:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:13:09 -0500
Subject: Re: First Quasi-Satellite Of Venus Discovered -


>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 15:52:56 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
>Subject: First Quasi-Satellite Of Venus Discovered

>Hi Everyone!

>We all know that the closest planet to us in space is Venus,
>the Earth's 'twin' planet. This very bright celestial object is
>sometimes seen in the sky at dawn or dusk and is often mistaken
>for a UFO.

>Although the Earth has a large natural satellite, the Moon, and
>at least two known asteroid companions, Cruithne and 2002 AA29
>(both objects co-discovered by astronomers/near Earth asteroid
>dynamicists at York University), Venus and the Mercury were
>believed to be the only two planets in our solar system without
>moons or asteroid companions, until now.

>Now astronomers, including Brasser and Innanan from York U. and
>Wiegart who is now with University of Western Ontario, have
>discovered that Venus has a small quasi-satellite of its own.
>This object, 2002 VE68, has the same orbitial plane and orbital
>period around the Sun as Venus has. Seen from Venus, this quasi-
>satellite seems to orbit the planet once every Venusian year.

>What is exciting about this new quasi-satellite of Venus is
>that its highly elliptical orbit takes it as close to the Sun as
>Mercury and as far away as the Earth. This near-Earth asteroid
>would make an ideal future manned platform for studying the
>inner solar system and could easily be resupplied from Earth or
>from stations on or orbiting the other two inner planets.


Hi Nick,

Any information regarding the size of 2002 VE68. How close to
Earth's orbit does it come. I've often thought that someday we
would uses asteroids for research, hitching free rides on - or
in - them. Maybe others do.


Don Ledger







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                Mexican UFO Video Article In Skeptic Magazine

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 11:08:45 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:15:27 -0500
Subject: Mexican UFO Video Article In Skeptic Magazine


I am not really a self promoter but it is kind of exciting for
me to see my first article published (in the latest Skeptic
magazine). If you have read the e-version of my article on the
Skeptic site, it is pretty much the same (although I made a few
changes/added acknowledgements).

Too bad there's no money in this, but they are nice enough to
provide free copies of the magazine.






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                   UFO Cult Names Eminem 'Honorary Priest'

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 12:05:52 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:16:55 -0500
Subject: UFO Cult Names Eminem 'Honorary Priest'


Bestowed on a guy who wrote a song about killing his mother
(sic).

Terry

-----

Source: The Hip-Hop Daily News

http://www.sohh.com/thewire/read.php?contentID=6454

UFO Cult Names Eminem 'Honorary Priest'

Eminem's politically charged video for "Mosh" has earned him
recognition as "honorary priest" of the anti-violence UFO cult,
The Raelian Movement.

Besides taking the top chart position this week for his album,
Encore, Eminem is getting another top position as an "honorary
priest" of the Raelian Movement. The group's founder, Rael,
formerly known as Claude Vorilhon, has bestowed the title upon
Eminem for his anti-war video, "Mosh," which calls upon American
youth to stand up against the Bush administration's war on Iraq.

"This is wonderful," says Rael, who started the controversial
Raelian Movement in 1973 after he claimed to encounter a UFO.
"It will help reach millions of young people, who are otherwise
uninterested by politics because they see the lies and hypocrisy
coming from Washington, remember the truth about violence."

The core idea of the movement stemmed from the belief by Rael
and his followers that the ancient Hebrew concept "Elohim"
should have been translated as "those who came from the sky"
rather than "God." The Elohim - a group of aliens from another
planet - are believed by Raelians to be responsible for the
creation of life on earth.

"This title only given to public figures not afraid of
jeopardizing their careers for their standing up for peace,"
says Rael. "Rappers are never afraid of controversy and this is
a great example of freedom of speech, which, if the Bush
administration has its way with the Patriot acts, will be taken
away from US citizens."

Eminem's camp has not issued a response to his receipt of the
"honorary" title.







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               Re: First Quasi-Satellite Of Venus Discovered -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:41:44 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:58:02 -0500
Subject: Re: First Quasi-Satellite Of Venus Discovered -


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 11:49:52 -0400
>Subject: Re: First Quasi-Satellite Of Venus Discovered

>>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 15:52:56 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
>>Subject: First Quasi-Satellite Of Venus Discovered

>>Hi Everyone!

>>We all know that the closest planet to us in space is Venus,
>>the Earth's 'twin' planet. This very bright celestial object is
>>sometimes seen in the sky at dawn or dusk and is often mistaken
>>for a UFO.

<snip>

>Any information regarding the size of 2002 VE68. How close to
>Earth's orbit does it come. I've often thought that someday we
>would uses asteroids for research, hitching free rides on - or
>in - them. Maybe others do.


Hey Don... I wrote this in August, 2001.

I'm just wondering if this is not something that Humanity will
very tragically miss the point on. Must these near Earth
asteroids be only the "Planet Killers" we paint them to be?
These big rocks that sail down so close to Earth orbit seem to
me to be something else, entirely.

On the orbit simulations animator the reader can find at the
aforementioned NASA URL, the slowly tumbling potential bolides
resemble simple stones across an inky brook of interplanetary
space. They are merely places for humanity to more easily step
and stand as it strides away from the planet. They are habitat
in the form of eventual slingshots to the stars. They are huge
collections of concentrated wealth not taken from the bosom of
an abused planet mother. They are gift more than they are
threat!

They are a boon, and not a catastrophe. They are a blessing and
not a curse. They are an opportunity to excel and not an
impossible hurdle to crash over! They are salvation! They are
deliverance! They are redemption! Astonishingly, this is not
hyperbole.

I'm disgusted with an aggregate humanity that stands around
wringing its petulant little hands and whining every time one of
these things sails by. I'm embarrassed by an aggregate humanity
apparently oblivious to the wealth that they more than
abundantly indicate. Moreover, I'm angered by the non-elected
leadership allowed by an aggregate humanity that encourages this
kind of shortsighted cultural behavior!

What's everybody so worried about anyway, unless we just let
these asteroids smash into us like we were deer, stunned frozen
on the highway in approaching cosmic headlights... and then
that's just nature's way of letting us know how cowardly and
stupid we were... cheer up!

No, say what you want about Humanity, but it is life after all,
and life finds a way!

We were born to capture these things like they were wooly
mammoths. We were made to steer these things around the sky like
beasts of heavy burden. In that noble pursuit we've nothing to
lose and everything to gain for our boldness... besides, our
boldness will likely bring mighty forces to our aid!

Get real, people! This much maligned cloud looks to me to be
virtually all silver lining... if we want it to be. Read on!

alienview.nul  -:|:-
   www.AlienView.net






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                Re: Alien Abductions & Coffee Enemas - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 17:02:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 07:20:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Alien Abductions & Coffee Enemas - White


>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 18:02:08 +0000
>Subject: Re: Alien Abductions & Coffee Enemas

<snip>

>But the real problem maybe that for many, perhaps most
>ufologists, the subject is more akin to a religion rather than a
>science. Just see how people react to crticial commentaries on
>classic cases, with the usual denounciations of skeptibunker,
>pelicanist etc of anyone who proposes a solution to a ufo case
>which does not involve non human intelligences of some kind. A
>reaction as though someone had challegned their deeply held
>religious faith. I suppose the next step will be to denounce
>sceptics as hybrids and burn them at the nearest stake. Peter
>Rogerson

Or maybe that for some who believe UFOs are ET craft, it derives
from plain old common sense, based on decades of contemplating
the huge, ancient and complex universe and the way nature seems
to inhabit the most unlikely environments, including the vacuum
of the Moon.

The discovery of microbes on a 2-year old lander, for example.


Eleanor White








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              Re: Mexican UFO Video Article In Skeptic Magazine

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 22:29:55 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 07:21:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Mexican UFO Video Article In Skeptic Magazine


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 11:08:45 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
>Subject: Mexican UFO Video Article In Skeptic Magazine

>I am not really a self promoter but it is kind of exciting for
>me to see my first article published (in the latest Skeptic
>magazine). If you have read the e-version of my article on the
>Skeptic site, it is pretty much the same (although I made a few
>changes/added acknowledgements).

>Too bad there's no money in this, but they are nice enough to
>provide free copies of the magazine.

Blimey! I thought skepics got paid huge amounts of money by the
vast international organisation that is trying to cover up the
truth about UFOs!


John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of
its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to
live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies.
The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may
at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own
good will torment us without end for they do so with the
approval of their own conscience."  C.S.Lewis








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              Re: What Secrets Lie In Museum Vaults? - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 17:34:28 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 07:22:51 -0500
Subject: Re: What Secrets Lie In Museum Vaults? - Maccabee


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 13:39:43 EST
>Subject: What Secrets Lie In Museum Vaults?


>I feel like that ending scene of "Raiders of the Lost Ark" where
>the Ark was secreted away in a warehouse full of a sea of
>unknown objects.

>I've got a lead given to me from an engineering pal of mine of
>what was found in the depths of a very famous museum.

>Said objects defy any form of modern historical sequence and
>these objects have yet to see the light of day.

>Just one of these objects, already verified of it's age
>overturns anything we have come to know as the developement of
>technological devices.

>I'm now going to pursue the contacts who didn't know there were
>outlets for this information. I wouldn't do this had I not exact
>descriptions and time and events that occured.

>Cross your fingers, this one is gonna be a good one.

>How does this tie in with Ufology? It goes hand in hand with
>theories regarding early advanced civilization and could lead to
>possible ET intervention of some sort. Could.

Sounds like an interesting lead to follow, If "they" are here
now, they could have been here many years ago or even thousands
of years ago.








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                                Request Help

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 17:37:38 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 07:24:13 -0500
Subject: Request Help


I have been sent a miniDV from Britain.

Video was taken by a Samsung Digital VPO 80 400X and recorded on
Panasonic DVM 60 videotape.

My Sony mini-digital cam won't play it.

Can anyone play this and copy it onto VHS or S-VHS?

If so, answer privately with address so I can mail it to you.

Same request for another set of three video tapes, this time
taken on a Sony TRV 103 (NOT mini-DV format).

I have been asked to analyze these but can't play them.








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                   Re: How Is UK Ufology Faring? - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 23:04:29 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 07:27:34 -0500
Subject: Re: How Is UK Ufology Faring? - Rimmer


>From: Roy Hale <vinyl.lover10.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 23:08:24 -0000
>Subject: How Is UK Ufology Faring?

>It has now been over a year since Graham Birdsall of Quest
>International's UFO Magazine passed away.

>How is UK Ufology faring since the closure of UFO UK Magazine?

Pretty well disappeared.

>Has the debate gone?

Gone very much underground

>Have UFO sightings become less of a topic for discussion in the
>UK?

Probably

>How major a role did UK UFO magazine play in keeping UK UFO
>research in the public mind?

Hard to say. just how much is UFO research in the public mind at
the best of times? Certainly having a popular news-stand
magazine heightened the profile, but from a very low base.

>How high is the readership for the USA and Brazilian UFO
>Magazines?

I'm amazed at Mr Gevard's information about the Brazilian UFO
magazine. It seems that one of the essential ingredients for a
successful UFO magazine is that you publish in a language other
than English or French!

>Who will be writing the history of ufology? The sceptics, or the
>people who have witnessed strange things, beings, craft etc.

The same people who write all history - the winners!

>Is the alien agenda a mere blur from past decades, where slick
>design and colourful graphics inspired us to revel in a
>beautiful mystery?

Not quite sure what you mean here. There was very little 'slick
design and colourful graphics' in ufology in past deacdes. I've
been sorting through my crumbling prehistoric layers of old UFO
mags, and 'slick', 'design' and 'colourful' are not words that
immediately come to mind.

>How many UK UFO groups are receiving regular sightings and
>contact reports?

How many UK UFO groups are doing anything?

>Is there a 'New Ufology'? An underground ufology, a mutation
>caused by he fragmentation of mainstream ufology?

I don't think there has ever been 'mainstream ufology', it's
always been a fractious and fragmented world, as any glance
through UpDates shows (and indeed as any glance through the
aforementioned slowly fossilizing magazines reveals).

>Who is still telling people that UFOs are not real, yet still
>make their wares available in media circles, promoting their own
>form of closet ufology?

I presume this is the wicked pelicanists, is it - those two
naughty boys who write for Fortean Times?

>Who now keeps the MoD on their toes in the UK, regarding UFO
>sightings?

What evidence is there that the MoD is 'on their toes' in respect to UFO
sightings, with or without the help of ufologists?

>Isn't strange that those people lucky enough to film anything
>decent in the UK, are put against the media faces of mainstream
>ridicule, and then quit?

I can't recall anyone in the UK actually filming anything
decent, UFO-wise. I can recall any number of very doubtful bits
of film and video being shown uncritically on TV news
programmes.

>What does a psychologist know about video tape film? Aren t they
>supposed to be looking at the mind and its workings?

I don't see any reason why psychologists should be in any less
of a position to comment on videos and films than someone who,
from their email address, perhaps runs a record business, or
indeed, is a librarian.

(Off topic: a local newspaper in South London gave a prize for
the best punning shop name. The winner: a record store called
'Vinyl Resting Place')


John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm







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                     Re: Ufology As A Science - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 18:06:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 07:29:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Ufology As A Science - Maccabee


>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 14:25:55 -0700
>Subject: Ufology As A Science


>Ufology, as a science, actually exists. Here is why it has grown
>from a small group of open-minded people with an interest in the
>subject to a massive number of people that spans into the
>hundreds of millions worldwide.

I have recently posted on my web site an updated version of my
paper entitled "Still In Default", which picks up where Dr.
James McDonald left off some 30 years ago. Published here for
the first time are my "struggles" to have papers published in
the refereed scientific literature. I was successful... once...
quite by accident. But I was also told that my work was "inane"
and that UFO researchers are 99 44/100% kooks. Read all about it
at:

http://brumac.8k.com/Still%20In%20Default/Still%20in%20Default.html








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              Re: Mexican UFO Video Article In Skeptic Magazine

From: Joe  McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 00:46:24 -0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 07:30:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Mexican UFO Video Article In Skeptic Magazine


Hello James, List,

>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 11:08:45 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
>Subject: Mexican UFO Video Article In Skeptic Magazine

>I am not really a self promoter but it is kind of exciting for
>me to see my first article published (in the latest Skeptic
>magazine). If you have read the e-version of my article on the
>Skeptic site, it is pretty much the same (although I made a few
>changes/added acknowledgements).

>Too bad there's no money in this, but they are nice enough to
>provide free copies of the magazine.

Congratulations on losing your "journalistic virginity", I
remember feeling the same when I had a review of a (dot matrix)
printer published in Popular Computing Weekly (in 1987 I think).
I still have a copy somewhere!

I found the on-line version of your article at:

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic07-24-04.html

I see that you have duly credited Captain Alejandro Franz. It is
also interesting to note that NARCAP have singled out Captain
Franz for applause as to his handling of the case at:

http://www.narcap.org/news%20page/newspage.htm

"NARCAP applauds Captain Franz for his attention to detail as
well as his objectivity."

Sentiments that I entirely agree with. How long before Maussan
and his blind followers open their eyes and stop pushing this as
another "best case ever (and ever, amen)? Probably not until
Maussan has squeezed the last drop of journalistic mileage out
of it and moves on to the next "best case ever". So, there might
be "gold in them thar hills", if you are prepared to sacrifice
your objectivity (even if you can't sell the DVDs).


Regards,

Joe








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                          Secrecy News -- 11/29/04

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 19:59:02 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 07:31:48 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 11/29/04


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 105
November 29, 2004


**      UNIONS CHALLENGE DHS NON-DISCLOSURE AGREEMENT
**      TRACKING CIA OVERCLASSIFICATION
**      WEB WON'T LET GOVERNMENT HIDE


UNIONS CHALLENGE DHS NON-DISCLOSURE AGREEMENT

The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) policy that requires
employees to sign binding non-disclosure agreements for certain
types of unclassified information is "clearly illegal,"
according to an analysis by two major federal employees unions.

In a rare and potentially momentous expression of resistance to
official security policy, the National Treasury Employees Union
(NTEU) and the American Federation of Government Employees
(AFGE), which together represent more than 60,000 DHS employees,
asked the Department to immediately rescind the non-disclosure
agreement and the related directive that requires it.

"Our members fully appreciate the need to safeguard classified
and other highly sensitive information against unauthorized
disclosure, as do we," wrote NTEU President Colleen Kelley and
AFGE President John Gage in a November 23 letter to DHS
Secretary Tom Ridge.

"The Directive and Non-Disclosure Agreement, however, go well
beyond this legitimate purpose.  They cover a virtually
unlimited universe of information that is relevant to important
matters of public concern and whose disclosure would have no
adverse impact upon the national security."

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2004/11/nteu112304.pdf

"The possibilities for abuse inherent in a regime that
authorizes unlimited searches and provides supervisors unbridled
discretion to censor employee speech by simply stamping
documents 'for official use only' are obvious," wrote NTEU and
AFGE general counsels Gregory O'Duden and Mark Roth in a
detailed analysis of the policy.

Furthermore, "the Directive and Agreement violate both the First
and Fourth Amendments.  Therefore, we urge you to immediately
withdraw the Directive and stop the further dissemination of the
Agreement."  See their analysis here (1 MB PDF file):

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2004/11/nteu112304-gc.pdf

The DHS Directive, which was first reported by Secrecy News on
June 11, is posted here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/dhs-sbu.html

The DHS Non-Disclosure Agreement, first disclosed by Secrecy
News on November 8, is here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/dhs-nda.pdf

See also "Homeland Security Employees Required to Sign Secrecy
Pledge" by Spencer S. Hsu, Washington Post, November 16:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52977-2004Nov15.html


TRACKING CIA OVERCLASSIFICATION

"What should Congress and the people do about an intelligence
service they cannot trust?" asks author Thomas Powers in a
searching essay in the latest New York Review of Books
(12/16/04, not yet online).

The basic untrustworthiness of the CIA extends beyond fateful
matters of high policy, such as whether Iraq possessed weapons
of mass destruction, to the most mundane details of
classification policy.

Clearly, there are innumerable aspects of intelligence that are
properly and necessarily classified.  But just as clearly, CIA
habitually overclassifies, whether from an abundance of caution,
or out of bad faith, or simply due to error.

One recent instance of erroneous CIA overclassification was
spotted by arms control analyst and blogger Jeffrey Lewis.  He
noted that a table of historical Chinese nuclear weapons tests
that was censored in a recent CIA publication, Tracking the
Dragon, was published in full in another intelligence document.
 He provides copies of both for the reader's comparison.

See "Tracking the Dragon: Unneccessary Redactions" by Jeffrey
Lewis in his blog ArmsControlWonk.com, November 26:

http://tinyurl.com/3wwmt


WEB WON'T LET GOVERNMENT HIDE

When government agencies withhold information unnecessarily and
congressional overseers are dormant or complicit, members of the
public are left at a serious disadvantage.

But they are not entirely helpless.

That is the message of two news stories that were coincidentally
published today, and that both feature Secrecy News among
several other public interest initiatives to promote public
access to government information.

See "Web Won't Let Government Hide" by Ryan Singel, Wired News,
November 29:

http://www.wired.com/news/privacy/0,1848,65800,00.html

and "Activists Crawl Through Web to Untangle U.S. Secrecy" by
William Fisher, Inter Press Service News Agency, November 29:

http://tinyurl.com/6to4n




_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

Secrecy News has an RSS feed at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood.nul
voice:  (202) 454-4691









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                 Re: UFO Cult Names Eminem 'Honorary Priest'

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 19:27:00 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 07:32:46 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Cult Names Eminem 'Honorary Priest'


>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 12:05:52 -0600
>Subject: UFO Cult Names Eminem 'Honorary Priest'

>Bestowed on a guy who wrote a song about killing his mother
>(sic).

<snip>

>Eminem's politically charged video for "Mosh" has earned him
>recognition as "honorary priest" of the anti-violence UFO cult,
>The Raelian Movement.

<snip>

Hi Terry,

How odd that a group as ridiculous as the Raelians could garner
major publicity just by bestowing honorary priesthood on an
earthly star.

So much more odd that *news* of such a perverse exercise found
its way to this List.

Any outrage one might be tempted to afford such a ploy would be
wise to remember that we live under a regime that oversees
"legitimate murder" on a daily basis...and has achieved
something akin to deification in the process. In that light,
what's the big deal about Eminem or the Raelians? Such outrage
is a waste of time and space in this List.


Sincerely,

Kyle








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                       The E.T. Equation Recalculated

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 07:36:57 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 07:36:57 -0500
Subject: The E.T. Equation Recalculated




Source: Wired Magazine

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.12/life.html

Issue 12.12 - December 2004


The E.T. Equation Recalculated
By Frank Drake

Fifty years ago, those of us who dreamed about finding
extraterrestrials thought we knew where to look: planets with
temperatures somewhere between the freezing and boiling points
of water. Given warm little ponds, simple chemical reactions
would produce life, and evolution might eventually produce
intelligent creatures. While working at the National Radio
Astronomy Observatory in the 1950s, I tried to estimate the
number of planets in our galaxy with intelligent, technological
civilizations. The result has come to be called the Drake
equation (not by me, although it sure is nice). But I've
recently realized that the numbers we've been plugging in are
too small. We placed undue limitation on the kind of stars that
could support life, which restricted the variable R*. We
underestimated the number of possible life-sustaining planets
because we thought they had to be confined to a particular
orbit: within the continuously habitable zone, or CHZ. But our
math said that our own sun's CHZ was so narrow that Earth was
barely in it. Life, especially complex life, would be very rare;
one would be very small too.

What did we miss? Venus. It's not much closer to the sun than
Earth is, but the temperature there reaches 900 degrees
Fahrenheit. Every square inch of the surface radiates about 17
times as much energy as it gets from the sun. Blame the
greenhouse effect; Venus' thick carbon dioxide atmosphere
contains that energy. So, theoretically, a planet could be far
from a star and still have life, if the atmosphere was thick
enough to keep it warm. These "goldilocks" worlds, not too hot
or too cold, greatly enlarge the CHZ - Jupiter's moon Europa,
enveloped not by CO2 but by ice, may be an example.

Planets might not even need stars. No one has directly observed
a rogue planet, but we know they're out there; astronomers have
discovered more than 130 extrasolar planets, and their orbital
motion tells us that during the formation of a solar system,
extra planets get dumped into the star or kicked out of the
system. The castaways wander in the great empty spaces between
the stars, the orphans of the Milky Way. In theory, if the
rogue's crust contained radioactive elements, their decay could
keep the surface warm enough for life.

Eighty percent of the stars in our galaxy are small, faint red
dwarfs, what astronomers call M stars. They'd draw a planet so
close that tidal interactions would hold one face toward the
star, the way the moon faces Earth. At the center of the
dayside, temperatures would range from warm to broiling. On the
nightside, the air itself would be frozen into snowflakes -
 unless, as we think might be possible, powerful winds blew from
the dayside. Somewhere between twilight and noon would be what I
call a Camelot zone. It'll have good weather all the time and a
warm breeze, like a never-ending balmy evening.

We used to think N was about 10,000. Now I think it could be a
great deal larger. To find out, we must point our radio
telescopes at new targets. We have to look between stars - there
could be friendly rogues calling from the gossamer swath of the
Milky Way. There might be planets nestled near cold, tiny stars,
where intelligent creatures would have no concept of day or
night. And I wonder, do these Camelotians ever sleep?

Frank Drake (fdrake.nul) originated the idea of listening
for life on other worlds with radio telescopes. He is senior
director of the Center for the Study of Life in the Universe at
the SETI Institute in Mountain View, California.


[UFO UpDates thanks Stuart Miller for the lead]








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                   Aykroyd Expounds On His Belief In UFOs

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 07:49:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 07:49:35 -0500
Subject: Aykroyd Expounds On His Belief In UFOs




Source: MSNBC

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6612272/

11-30-04


Dan Aykroyd Is A Real-Life Grinch
But actor expounds on his belief in UFOs


By Jeannette Walls
MSNBC

Dan Aykroyd was a bit of a Grinch during his junket for
Christmas With The Kranks.

The star startled some when he launched into a tirade against
American consumerism =97 and then further baffled them when he
held forth on UFOs.

"Greetings and death to our enemies," Aykroyd began the
interview.

<snip>

A transcript of the interview is at DarkHorizons.com:

http://www.darkhorizons.com/news04/krank3.php

Then the "Ghostbusters" star got into the subject of extra-
terrestrials, saying "I'm the Hollywood consultant for
mufon.com, which is the Mutual UFO Network and I have in the
past two weeks have been sent just astounding home video of
these objects that are just winking in and out or our
atmosphere, coming and going like taxis.We are a data base if
any filmmaker or artist wants to treat this kind of material we
can open up our entire data base to them as a resource. You've
been hearing of these sightings in Carmite Yukon with these
ships 200 feet across. Two to three hundred people have seen
them Mounties have seen them. There's huge, massive mother ships
going up to the Yukon. They've been filmed and are on video.
Fifty-four percent of the world believes that there's something
inter-dimensional or extraterrestrial going on here. And the
rest.so we need sceptics. I invite you to go on the website and
look through the material.







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                        UK National Archives On UFOs

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:03:38 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:03:38 -0500
Subject: UK National Archives On UFOs




Source: The National Archives - UK

http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/rdleaflet.asp?sLeafletID=389

11-05-04


Research Notes 6

Research notes have been compiled by staff in The National
Archives and other government departments in the course of their
work to assist staff and researchers. They have been created
from a wide variety of sources and are related to specific
queries. Research notes should not be considered comprehensive
and it is likely that further information can be found by
undertaking bibliographic research and searching the Catalogue
(www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk).


Unidentified Flying Objects (UFOs)

Introduction - What is a UFO?

Since man first started looking up into the skies he saw things
he couldn't explain. For the last 50 years or so these things
have taken on the label 'UFOs.' Originally an abbreviation for
the US Air Force term 'Unidentified Flying Object', it has
become a synonym to most people for 'Alien Spaceship.' For the
Air Force, though, it is simply a term to refer to something in
the skies that the observer can see but not recognise. Usually
the explanation is less extraordinary than a flying saucer
manned by visitors from other worlds. Often a weather balloon or
natural phenomenon is the cause. However, there are cases on
record where no good common explanation was ever found.


UK History of UFOs

Elements of the secret history of the British Government's early
involvement in the UFO issue, giving an insight into the
politics and personalities responsible for shaping official
policy, can be found by studying the range of documents now
available at The National Archives.

The bulk of recorded history of UFO's in the UK occurs in the
post-war period, but to understand what happened and why, it is
useful to go back a little further. A mysterious wave of airship
sightings that took place over America in 1896 and 1897 ? the
first such sightings recorded ? were mirrored by a series of
sightings that took place in Britain, starting in 1909. These
so-called 'scareship? sightings occurred between 1909 and 1912.
With tension between Britain and Germany particularly high at
the time, the public perception was that these were sightings of
German airships carrying out reconnaissance missions. These
sightings mark the beginning of official interest in unexplained
aerial phenomena.

These sightings continued throughout 1913 and one consequence of
this was the strengthening of the Aerial Navigation Act of 1911.
A Bill was duly passed which set up prohibited areas. If these
were violated or if an airship failed to respond to signals from
the ground, it could then be shot down and to enable this to be
carried out, the War Office stepped up efforts to produce a gun
capable of bringing down an airship. The War Office continued to
investigate the 1913 sightings, but drew a blank.

Despite widespread public scepticism, the Government continued
to take the view that all sightings should be investigated. If
there is evidence that your airspace is being penetrated by
aerial craft one does not ignore the data. Whatever one's
personal beliefs, anyone within government and the military
cannot ignore evidence of this nature and must assume that they
are hostile. This philosophy underpins British official interest
in UFOs, and in a sense the War Office response to the
'scareship? mystery set the template for future official
investigations into UFOs.

Most UFO researchers are familiar with the 'Foo Fighter'
mystery, which involved strange balls of light and small,
metallic objects seen by both Allied and Axis pilots during the
Second World War. File AIR 14/2800 at the National Archives
contains one of the few surviving official British reports of
these objects, detailing how aircrew from Bomber Command's 115
Squadron saw some of these strange objects on bombing raids in
December 1943.

The year that ufology first really hit the headlines in the UK
was 1950. Prior to that there had, of course, been coverage, but
this largely concerned US sightings and the reporting was often
dismissive. But on 8 October 1950 two major newspapers started a
series of articles on the subject. The Sunday Express began to
serialise Gerald Heard's book The Riddle of the Flying Saucers
and the rival Sunday Dispatch, a London paper, ran extracts from
Frank Scully's Behind the Flying Saucers and Donald Keyhoe's The
Flying Saucers are Real.


Media and Establishment scutiny

But it was not just the media who were clamouring for answers
and pressing the Government for action. Some very senior
Establishment figures ? including Earl Mountbatten, Commander-
in-Chief of Fighter Command, Air Chief Marshal Sir Hugh Dowding,
and Sir Peter Horsley, Deputy Commander-in-Chief at HQ Strike
Command ? felt that something should be done and lobbied on the
subject. An Establishment figure whose interest in UFOs is less
well known is Sir Henry Tizard.

Best known for his pioneering work on the development of radar
technology prior to the Second World War and his various wartime
posts included Scientific Adviser to the Air Staff, Tizard had
followed the official debate about ghost rockets with interest
and was intrigued by the increasing media coverage of UFO
sightings in the UK, America and other parts of the world. Using
his authority as Chief Scientific Adviser at the MOD he decided
that the subject should not be dismissed without some proper,
official investigation. Accordingly, he agreed that a small
Directorate of Scientific Intelligence/Joint Technical
Intelligence Committee (DSI/JTIC) working party should be set up
to investigate the phenomenon. This was dubbed the Flying Saucer
Working Party.


The Flying Saucer Working Party

The Flying Saucer Working Party was set up in October 1950, but
operated under such secrecy that its existence was known to very
few. Nevertheless, there were two clues that such a study had
been carried out. One of these clues was obvious, but the other
was more obscure. The first clue was in the Secretary of State
for Air's response to Prime Minister Winston Churchill's famous
28 July 1952 memo in which he enquired 'What does all this stuff
about flying saucers amount to? What can it mean? What is the
truth? Let me have a report at your convenience'. The response,
dated 9 August 1952, began 'The various reports about
unidentified flying objects, described by the Press as 'flying
saucers', were the subject of a full Intelligence study in
1951'.

The second clue was in a minute dated 29 May 1959, written by an
official in S6 (a now defunct MOD division whose
responsibilities for researching and investigating UFOs were
latterly taken on by DS8, Sec(AS) and now DAS). This minute
contained a sentence which read ?The subject was reviewed by the
J.I.C. some years ago and their views agree with a more
extensive review carried out by the Americans?. This minute can
be found at the National Archives in file DEFE 31/118.

There was some considerable discussion and debate about the
terms of reference of the Flying Saucer Working Party. The final
version read as follows:

1. To review the available evidence in reports of 'Flying
      Saucers'.

2. To examine from now on the evidence on which reports of
      British origin of phenomena attributed to 'Flying Saucers'
      are based.

3. To report to DSI/JTIC as necessary.

4. To keep in touch with American occurrences and evaluation
      of such.

The five-man working party was headed by one of the MOD's
scientific intelligence branches, and all the members were
specialists in the field of scientific and technical
intelligence.

The working party's conclusions were set out in a document dated
June 1951 and bearing the designation DSI/JTIC Report No. 7. It
was entitled 'Unidentified Flying Objects' and classified
'Secret Discreet'. The report was made available at the National
Archives on 1 January 2002. Some of the key NA file references
containing the Report and related DSI/JTIC discussions are
<strong>DEFE 10/496</strong> , DEFE 41/74 and DEFE 41/75.

The report concludes that all UFO sightings could be explained
as misidentifications of ordinary objects or phenomena, optical
illusions, psychological delusions or hoaxes. The main body of
the report ends with the following statement: 'We accordingly
recommend very strongly that no further investigation of
reported mysterious aerial phenomena be undertaken, unless and
until some material evidence becomes available'.

The report was duly considered by the DSI/JTIC and it was
recommended that in view of its sceptical conclusions, it should
be regarded as a final report. It was further suggested that the
working party be dissolved with immediate effect. This was
agreed, thus bringing to an end the MOD's first UFO research
project.


Sightings continue

The Flying Saucer Working Party had been dissolved in 1951
amidst a frenzy of scepticism. However, this was soon to change.
During the period 1952 to 1957 there were a series of UFO
sightings involving the military, which forced the MOD to
rethink and then reverse its policy.

Such high-profile sightings, together with the increasing number
of reports from the general public, pushed the sceptics within
MOD onto the defensive. The Flying Saucer Working Party's
recommendation that UFO sightings should not be investigated was
overturned and by the mid-1950s two Air Ministry Divisions were
actively involved in investigating UFO sightings. The divisions
concerned were S6, a civilian secretariat division on the air
staff, and DDI(Tech), a technical intelligence division. Their
brief was to research and investigate the UFO phenomenon looking
for evidence of any threat to the UK.


Evidence

There are as many photographs of UFOs as there are of the Loch
Ness Monster, and they are of equal quality: blurs and
forgeries. Other physical evidence, such as alleged debris from
alien crashes, or burn marks on the ground from alien landings,
or implants in noses or brains of alien abductees, have turned
out to be quite terrestrial, including forgeries. The main
reasons for believing in UFOs are the testimony of many people,
the inability to distinguish science fiction from science, the
willingness to trust incompetent men telling fantastic stories,
the ability to distrust all contrary sources as being part of an
evil conspiracy to withhold the truth, and a desire for contact
with the world above. Belief in aliens in UFOs is akin to belief
in supernatural beings.


Your right to know extended

Details about UFO sightings, clinical trials, accident
investigations and Whitehall meetings are now systematically
being released to the public under plans to open up government.
Public access to information from government bodies is being
extended by the scrapping and amending of numerous pieces of
legislation, under the Freedom of Information Act which is
currently being phased in.

In 2002, the first tranche of hitherto secret information was
released when government departments published their own schemes
of legislation, which they plan to release to the public. The
material will be made available immediately on departmental
websites or through application by post.


The various documents available for dissemination at The
National Archives give a history of the British Government's
early involvement in the UFO issue, giving an insight into the
politics and personalities responsible for shaping official
policy.

The official reporting, analysis and recording of UFO sightings
commenced in the early 1950s, with substantial records at the
National Archives beginning in the early 1960s. At that time the
Air Ministry was made responsible for the collation of all
reports dealing with UFO's (certainly from the early 1960s). The
specific responsibility was delegated to A.I. (Tech)3 in the
deputy Directorate of Intelligence (Technical). All reports from
all sources are sent to A.I. (Tech)3 for examination, analysis
and classification. Reports on unidentified aircraft emanating
from sources other than RAF Fighter Command [where the majority
of reports were directed via police and civilians] were passed
to CIC Fighter Command for investigation.

A.I. (Tech)3 examined all UFO reports and attempted to obtain
substantiating evidence form Fighter Command, MET, MCA etc as
appropriate. All reports registered included the following
details: details of originator i.e. civilian, MET etc; address
of originator; preliminary classification of sighting i.e.
balloon, aircraft, missiles, astronomical phenomena, etc;
height, speed, shape, size, colour, date/time and locality of
sighting; plus other remarks.

Materials available at The National Archives tend to be dated
from 1960 to 1974. They generally consist of collections of
sightings as reported to the Ministry of Defence, by civilians
through, for example, the Royal Air Command and official
correspondence relating to these sightings. There is also
substantial information regarding the government's official UFO
policy through the years, including references to how and by
whom it was drawn up, and how it evolved etc, as well as
numerous references and correspondence between various
departments ? particularly the Ministry of Defence, RAF Fighter
Command and the Deputy Directorate of Intelligence (Technical).

The information included in the majority of files held at The
National Archives is focused on numerous specific UFO reports
and how they have been handled by the various relevant
departments ? either from civilians or airforce personnel. Where
the information is available, it tends to be officially
classified/categorised according to following criteria:

(a) Date, time and duration of sighting;
(b) Description of object;
(c) Exact position observer;
(d) How observed;
(e) Direction in which object was first seen;
(f) Angle of sight;
(g) Distance;
(h) Movements;
(j) Meteorological conditions during observations;
(k) Nearby objects;
(l) To whom reported (police, military organisations, the press etc);
(m) Name and address of informant;
(n) Any background on the informant that may be volunteered;
(o) Other witnesses;
(p) date and time of receipt of report; and
(q) Is a reply requested?

The following files, within AIR 2 and AIR 20 categories should
point you to the key collections of documented sightings through
the years as officially recorded by successive governments (in
approximately chronological order):

AIR 2/16918 features numerous sightings, with reports by members
of the public between 1961-1963; and likewise AIR 2/18115, 1967;
AIR 2/18116, 1967; AIR 2/18117 1967-1968; AIR 2/18183, 1968-
1969. AIR 2/18871 contains reports and newspaper cuttings
from1972, while AIR 2/18872 again consists of a collection of
civilian and other reports, 1972-1973; AIR 2/18873, 1972-1973;
and AIR 2/18874 likewise for 1974-1975. AIR 2/19125, which
opened this year, is essentially a collection of UFO sightings
as compiled by RAF Patrington ? referred as reports of unusual
occurrences (UFO). This includes a collection of reports from
civilians, police, and various flight personnel from RAF
Patrington etc and occurring between 1968 and 1973.

AIR 20 files include: AIR 20/11612 which again is a collection
of general UFO reports and policy statements, 1967-1968; AIR
20/9320 reports from Air Traffic Control (Code 9): and details
of Parliamentary question on unidentified flying objects 1957.
AIR 20/9320 includes details of Radar and Radio Countermeasures
(Code 61): Parliamentary question on UFO's 1957; AIR 20/9321
likewise Air Traffic Control (Code 9): Parliamentary question on
unidentified flying objects; Radar and Radio Countermeasures
(Code 61): Parliamentary question on unidentified flying
objects; and similarly for AIR 20/9322.

A subseries within AIR 20 includes: BJ 5/311, which features
documentation relating to meteorological aspects 1968-1970; and
DEFE 44/119 a collection of UFO reports and analysis, Jan 1951-
Dec 1951.


Ministry of Defence Archives

The Ministry of Defence archives
[www.mod.uk/contacts/army_records.htm and
www.foi.mod.uk/classes1.asp] includes updated information on
UFOs, including the Rendlesham documents about a UFO report in
Suffolk in 1980 ? which remains one of the most convincing UFO's
incidents to-date, and still remains unexplained. The so-called
Rendlesham File is a fat catalogue detailing the increasingly
despairing correspondence between the Ministry of Defence and
members of the public after the sighting of unexplained lights
in Rendlesham Forest, near the RAF base at Woodbridge, Suffolk,
in December 1980.


US Government sources

The US has long been considerably more active than the UK
government in recording and analysing UFO sightings through the
years. The U.S. Government Documents provide a valuable resource
for UFO information gatherers:

1. The Central Intelligence Agency has placed the full texts of
recently declassified documents concerning UFO's on line at the
CIA's Popular Document Collection: UFO's Fact or Fiction?
www.foia.ucia.gov/scripts/popdoc.asp

2. The National Security Agency has placed the full texts of
recently declassified documents concerning UFOs online at the
National Security Agency's UFO Documents Index.
www.nsa.gov:8080/docs/efoia/released/ufo.html

3. The Federal Bureau of Investigation has placed the full texts
of recently declassified documents concerning UFOs in PDF format
in the 'Unusual Phenomena' section of the FOIA Electronic
Reading Room. www.foia.fbi.gov/uo.htm

4. For extensive documentation of UFO investigations, the
researcher should consult the records of US Air Force Project
Blue Book, located in Record Group 341, at the National Archives
and Records Administration, Textual Reference Branch, College
Park, MD 20740-6001; telephone (301) 713-7250

5. RG 341.15 Records of Project Blue Book 1947-69

 o History: Established as Project Sign by a memorandum from
Maj. Gen. L.C. Craigie, Director of Research and Development,
Office of the Deputy Chief of Staff, Material, HQUSAF, to Lt.
Gen. Nathan F. Twining, Commanding General, Air Materiel Command
(AMC), USAF, 30 December 1947. Assigned to Technical
Intelligence Division, Intelligence Department, AMC, 22 January
1948; confirmed by Technical Instruction 2185, HQAMC, 11
February 1949, pursuant to a letter from Director of Research
and Development, Deputy Chief of Staff, Materiel, HQUSAF, 16
December 1948. Project Grudge terminated, December 1949.
Reactivated, 27 October 1951. Redesignated Project Blue Book,
March 1952. Air Technical Intelligence Center, transferred from
AMC to Office of Director of Intelligence, Deputy Chief of
Staff, Operations, 1952. Terminated by Secretary of the Air
Force announcement, 17 December 1969.

 o Textual Records: Records of the Aerial Phenomena Branch,
Technical Analysis Division, Air Technical Intelligence Center,
Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio, relating to the Air Force
study of unidentified flying objects (UFOs), consisting of case
files on alleged UFO sightings, 1947-1969 (61ft.); case files of
the 4602d Air Intelligence Service Squadron on alleged UFO
sightings, 1954-56; and records relating to the staffing and
organisation of the project, 1948-67. Records of the Office of
the Director of Special Investigations, Office of the Inspector
General, HQUSAF, consisting of reports of investigations of
alleged UFO sightings, 1948-68.

 o Motion Pictures (20 reels): Motion pictures received by the
Air Force during the project, and forming part of the Aerial
Phenomena Branch case files described above, 1950-67.

 o Sound Recordings (23 items): Interviews with individuals
conducted or acquired by the Air Force during the project, and
forming part of the Aerial Phenomena Branch case files described
above, 1955-67.

 o Photographs (8,360 images): Sightings of alleged UFOs,
forming part of the Aerial Phenomena Branch case files described
above, 1954-66 (PBB).

 o The Declassified Documents Reference System published by
Research Publications, Woodbridge, CT issued bimonthly on
microfiche with a hardcopy abstracts/subject index, is another
source worth examining. OCLC 16411767

Suggestions for further reading

There have been so many books on the subject of UFO's that a
comprehensive bibliography would not be practical here. In no
way should this be seen to detract from the other books to be
found in the ever-extending list of titles. This list is
alphabetical and includes all the major reference works.

 -  Adamski, George. Flying Saucers. Farewell.

 -  Azhazha, V. 'UFOs: Space Aliens?' Soviet Soldier 12 (Dec.
1991): 67-69.

 -  Beard, Robert Brookes. Flying Saucers, U.F.O's and
Extraterrestrial Life: A Bibliography of British Books, 1959-
1970. Swindon UK: R. Beard, 1971.

 -  Becker, Louise G. Unidentified Flying Objects: Selected
Reference (1966-1968). Washington: Library of Congress,
Legislative Reference Service, c1968.

 -  Berlitz, Charles. The Roswell Incident. New York: Grosset &
Dunlap, 1980.


 -  Blum, Howard. Out There: The Government's Secret Quest for
Extraterrestrials. New York: Simon & Schuster, 1990.

 -  Boikov, R. 'Paratroopers and UFOnauts.' Soviet Soldier 4
(Apr. 1991): 74-76.

 -  Brennan, Norman. Flying Saucer Books and Pamphlets in
English: A Bibliographic Checklist. Buffalo, NY: 1971.

 -  Carlson, David R. 'UFOs: The Air Force and the UFOs.'
Aerospace Historian 22, no.4 (Dec. 1974)

 -  Catoe, Lynn E. UFOs and Related Subjects: An Annotated
Bibliography. Washington: Air Force Office of Scientific
Research, Office of Aerospace Research, 1969.

 -  Condon, Dr. Edward U. Final Report of the Scientific Study
of Unidentified Flying Objects Conducted by the University of
Colorado under Contract to the United States Air Force (New
York: E.P. Dutton, 1969).

 -  Corso, Philip J. The Day After Roswell. New York: Pocket
Books, 1997.

 -  Dane, Abe. 'Flying Saucers: The Real Story.' Popular
Mechanics 172, no.l (Jan. 1995).

 -  Davidson, Leon. Flying Saucers: An Analysis of the Air Force
Project Blue Book Special Report No. 14. Ramsey NJ:
RamseyWallace Corp., 1966.

 -  Dolan, Richard and Vallee, Jacques: UFOs and the National
Security State: Chronology of a coverup, 1941-1973.

 -  Dudley, William, ed. UFOs (At Issue - Opposing Viewpoint
Series) (San Diego: Greenhaven Press, 1999).

 -  Frazier, Kendrick, (ed) The Ufo Invasion: The Roswell
Incident, Alien Abductions, and Governemnt Coverups (Promethues,
1997).

 -  Friedman, Stanton T. Crash at Corona: The U.S. Military
Retrieval and CoverUp of a UFO. New York: Paragon House, 1992.
OCLC 25632749.

 -  Good, Timothy. Above Top Secret: The Worldwide UFO Coverup.
New York: Morrow, 1987.

 -  Hall, Richard H. ed. The UFO Evidence (Unidentified Flying
Objects). Washington: National Investigations Committee on
Aerial Phenomena (NICAP), 1964.

 -  Haines, Gerald K. 'CIA's Role in the Study of UFOs, 1947-
1990' Studies in Intelligence 1, no. 1 (1997): 1-28 [Reprinted
in Intelligence and National Security 14, No. 2 (Summer, 1999):
26-49. _____. 'CIA's role in the Study of UFOs, 1947-1990: A Die
Hard Issue' Intelligence and National Security 14, no. 2 (Summer
1999): 26-48.

 -  Huyghe, Patrick. The Field Guide to Extraterrestials. New
York: Avon Books, 1996.

 -  Jacobs, David Michael. The UFO Controversy in America.
Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 1975. [Contains a review
of documents from Project Blue Book study files.]

 -  Jung, Carl G. Flying Saucers: A Modern Myth of Things Seen
in the Skies. New York: Harcourt, 1959.

 -  Keyhoe, Donald E. Flying Saucers From Outer Space. New York:
Holt, 1953. [Keyhoe was the founder of the National
Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena (NICAP) in 1956.
_____. Flying Saucers: Top Secret. New York: Putnam, 1960.

 -  Kinder, Gary. Light Years: An Investigation Into the
Extraterrestrial Experiences of Eduard Meier. New York: Atlantic
Monthly Press, 1987.

 -  Klass, Philip. UFOs: The Public Deceived. New York:
Prometheus Books, 1983.____, The Real Roswell Crashed-Saucer
Coverup. Amherst NY: Prometheus Books, 1997.

 -  Korff, Kal K. The Rosewell UFO Crash: What They Don't Want
You to Know. Amherst NY: Prometheus Books, 1997.

 -  Kurtz, Paul. The Transcendental Temptation: a Critique of
Religion and the Paranormal (Buffalo, N.Y.: Prometheus Books,
1986).

 -  Lorenzen, C.E. Great Flying Saucer Hoax. New York: William
Frederick, 1962.

 -  Mack, John E. Abduction: Human Encounters With Aliens. New
York: Scribners, 1994.

 -  McAndrew, James. The Roswell Report: Case Closed.
Washington: Headquarters, US Air Force, 1997.

 -  Menzel, Donald Howard World of Flying Saucers: A Scientific
Examination of a Major Myth of the Space Age. New York:
Doubleday, 1963.

 -  Page, Henrietta, M. Flying Saucers: A Bibliography. Aiken,
SC: Page, 1975.

 -  Peebles, Curtis. Watch the Skies!: A Chronicle of the Flying
Saucer Myth. Washington: Smithsonian Institution Press, 1994.

 -  Pendlow, Gregory W. and Donald E. Welzenbach. The CIA and
the U-2 Program, 1954-1974. Central Intelligence Agency, 1998.

 -  Pflock, Karl T. Roswell in Perspective. Washington: Fund for
UFO Research, 1994.

 -  Randi, James. Flim-Flam! (Buffalo, New York: Prometheus
Books,1982), ch. 4.

 -  Randle, Kevin D. Conspiracy of Silence. New York: Avon
Books, 1997. OCLC 35770870._____. A History of UFO Crashes. New
York: Avon Books, 1995._____. Project Blue Book Exposed. New
York: Marlowe & Co., 1997. OCLC 37047544._____. UFO Crash at
Roswell. New York: Avon Books, l991.?????.

 -  Schmitt, Donald R. The Truth About the UFO Crash at Roswell.
New York: M. Evans, 1994.

 -  Randles, Jenny. UFO Retrievals: The Recovery of Alien
Spacecraft. London: Blandford, 1995._____. UFOs and How to See
Them. New York: Sterling Publishing Company, 1992.

 -  Rodgers, Kay. Unidentified Flying Objects: A Selected
Bibliography. Washington: Library of Congress, 1976.

 -  Ruppelt, Edward J. Report on Unidentified Flying Obiects.
New York: Doubleday, 1956.

 -  Saler, Benson, Charles A. Ziegler, and Charles B. Moore. UFO
Crash at Roswell: The Genesis of a Modern Myth. Washington:
Smithsonian Instituiton Press, 1997.

 -  Sagan, Carl. Broca's Brain (New York: Random House, 1979),
ch 5. 'NightWalkers and Mystery Mongers: Sense and Nonsense at
the Edge of Science'.---Sagan, Carl. The Demon-Haunted World -
 Science as a Candle in the Dark, ch. 4, (New York: Random
House, 1995).---Sagan, Carl; Page, Thornton, UFO's: A Scientific
Debate, (Ithaca, N.Y.: Cornell University Press 1972).

 -  Shawcross, Tim. The Roswell File: Fifty Years On - The Most
Thorough Investigation Yet of the Biggest Alien Story Ever.
Osceola, WI: Motorbooks International, l997.

 -  Sheaffer, Robert. UFO Sightings: The Evidence (Buffalo, NY:
Prometheus Books, 1989).

 -  Spencer, John ed. The UFO Encyclopedia. New York: Avon
Books, l991.

 -  Stonehill, Paul. The Stonehill UFO Files: Paranormal
Encounters Behind the Iron Curtain. New York: Quadrillion Pub.,
1998. [Includes a list of UFO research organisations in Russia,
Ukraine and Uzbekistan.]

 -  Stover, Dawn. '50 Years After Roswell.' Popular Science 250,
no.6 (Jun. 1997): 82-88.Strieber, Whitley. Communion: The True
Story. New York: Morrow, 1987.

 -  Tacker, Lawrence J. Flying Saucers and the U.S. Air Force.
New York: Van Nostrand, 1960. [States the official Air Force
position as of 1960 and includes earlier Air Force statements on
UFOs.]

 -  Tarabrin, A. 'Star Wars or Star Peace?: Following the Traces
of Flying Saucers.' Soviet Soldier 1 (Jan. 1991): 68-70.

 -  Unidentified Flying Objects Bibliography, Newspaper
Clippings. Washington: Library of Congress, n.d. [Note: 4 volume
set of microfilm covering the period through 1966]

 -  United States. Congress. House. Committee on Armed Services.
Unidentified Flying Objects. 89th Cong., 2d sess., 5 April 1966.

 -  United States. Congress. House. Committee on Science and
Astronautics. Symposium on Unidentified Flying Objects. 90th
Cong., 2d sess., 29 July 1968.United States. Department of
Defense.[DOD UFO website.]

 -  United States. Department of the Air Force. 'Unidentified
Flying Objects and Air Force Project Blue Book.' USAF Fact Sheet
95-03.

 -  United States. Department of the Air Force. The Roswell
Report: Fact Versus Fiction in the New Mexico Desert.
Washington: GPO, 1995.

 -  United States. General Accounting Office. Results of a
Search for Records Concerning the 1947 Crash Near Roswell, New
Mexico. Washington: General Accounting Office, 1995.

 -  United States. Library of Congress, Science and Technology
Division, Science Reference Section. Unidentified Flying Objects
(UFOS). Washington: GPO, 1991.

 -  Vasilyev, V. 'Target: UFO.' Soviet Soldier 8 (Aug. 1991):
73-75.

 -  Walters, Edward and Bruce Maccabee. UFO's Are Real: Here's
the Proof. New York: Avon Books, 1997.

 -  Walters, Edward and Frances Walters. The Gulf Breeze
Sightinqs: The Most Astounding Multiple Sightings of UFO's in
U.S. History. New York: William Morrow, 1990.

 -  Warren, Larry. Left at East Gate: A First-hand Account of
the Bentwater-Woodbridge UFO Incident, its Cover-up, and
Investigation. New York: Marlowe & Co., 1997.

 -  Wilson, Jim. 'Roswell Plus 50. 'Popular Mechanics 174, no.7
(Jul. 1997): 48-53.

 -  Ziegler, Charles A. 'UFOs and the US Intelligence Community'
Intelligence and National Security 14, no. 2 (summer 1999).


Additional organisations worth noting:

1. http://www.ufoevidence.org - This is one of the Internet's
largest sources of research and information on the UFO
phenomenon, with over 2,000 articles, documents and resources.

2. The J Allen Hynek Center for UFO Studies (CUFOS) ?
http://www.cufos.org/index.html ? is an international group of
scientists, academics, investigators, and volunteers dedicated
to the continuing examination and analysis of the UFO
phenomenon. Our purpose is to promote serious scientific
interest in UFOs and to serve as an archive for reports,
documents, and publications about the UFO phenomenon.

3. SETI (Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence) Institute
SETI Institute/Space.com: Aims to explore, understand and
explain the origin, nature and prevalence of life in the
universe. http://www.seti-inst.edu/

4. Parascope Nebula: Nebula = the UFO news service of Parascope.
Attempts to winnow out the nonsense, naivete, and non-
information that it believes dominates UFOlogy
http://www.parascope.com/nebula.htm

5. Natural Identified Flying Objects:
http://www.unmuseum.org/ifonat.htm - has comprehensive section
on UFOs from a US perspective


[UFO UpDates thanks Stuart Miller for the lead]






   UFO UpDates
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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Nov > Nov 30

                      How Britain And The US Keep Watch

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:10:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:10:08 -0500
Subject: How Britain And The US Keep Watch




Source: Educate-Yourself - Costa Mesa, California

http://educate-yourself.org/cn/hownsalistensin27feb04.shtml

02-27-04


How Britain And The US Keep Watch On The World

By Phillip Knightley
The Independent - UK


=46rom the National Security Agency's imposing headquarters at
Fort Meade, Maryland, ringed by a double-chain fence topped by
barbed wire with strands of electrified wire between them,
America "bugs" the world.

Nothing politically or militarily significant, whether mentioned
in a telephone call, in a conversation in the office of the
secretary general of the United Nations, Kofi Annan, or in a
company fax or e-mail, escapes its attention.

Its computers - measured in acres occupied by them rather than
simple figures - "vacuum the entire electromagnetic spectrum",
homing in on "key words" which may suggest something of interest
to NSA customers is being conveyed.

The NSA costs at least $3.5bn (=A31.9bn) a year to run. It employs
at least 20,000 officers (not counting the 100,000 servicemen
and civilians around the world over whom it has control). Its
shredders process 40 tons of paper a day.

Its junior partner is Britain's Government Communications
Headquarters (GCHQ) at Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, the
eavesdropping organisation for which Katharine Gun worked. Like
NSA, GCHQ is a highly secret operation. Until 1983, when one of
its officers, Geoffrey Prime, was charged with spying for the
Russians, the Government had refused to reveal what GCHQ's real
role was, no doubt because its operations in peacetime were
without a legal basis. Its security is maintained by massive and
deliberately intimidating security.

Newspapers have been discouraged from mentioning it; a book by a
former GCHQ officer, Jock Kane, was seized by Special Branch
police officers and a still photograph of its headquarters was
banned by the Independent Broadcasting Authority, leaving a
blank screen during a World in Action programme. As with NSA,
the size of GCHQ's staff at Cheltenham, about 6,500, gives no
real indication of its strength. It has monitoring stations in
Cyprus, West Germany, and Australia and smaller ones elsewhere.
Much of its overseas work is done by service personnel.

Its budget is thought to be more than =A3300m a year. A large part
of this is funded by the United States in return for the right
to run NSA listening stations in Britain - Chicksands,
Bedfordshire; Edzell, Scotland; Mentworth Hill, Harrogate;
Brawdy, Wales - and on British territory around the world.

The collaboration between the two agencies offers many
advantages to both. Not only does it make monitoring the globe
easier, it solves tricky legal problems and is the basis of the
Prime Minister's statement yesterday that all Britain's bugging
is lawful. The two agencies simply swap each other's dirty work.

GCHQ eavesdrops on calls made by American citizens and the NSA
monitors calls made by British citizens, thus allowing each
government plausibly to deny it has tapped its own citizens'
calls, as they do. The NSA station at Menwith Hill intercepts
all international telephone calls made from Britain and GCHQ has
a list of American citizens whose phone conversations interest
the NSA.

The NSA request to GCHQ for help in bugging the diplomats from
those nations who were holding out for a second Security Council
resolution to authorise an attack on Iraq is unsurprising. Nor
is it surprising that both organisations wanted to provide their
political masters with recordings of private conversations of
high-ranking international diplomats.

It is not difficult. Listening "bugs" can be planted in phones,
electrical plugs, desk lamps and book spines. Given a clear line
of sight, one device enables someone to detect and and interpret
sound waves vibrating against the glass window panes of an
office.

Bugging the world is not the problem. The problem is avoiding
drowning in a sea of information. We should not be surprised
that GCHQ and NSA eavesdrop on us. We pay them to do it. We
should be asking: "Do they earn their keep?" And, unless we get
a few more whistle-blowers like Ms Gun, we will not know,
because both agencies surround themselves with a wall of
secrecy.

WHO DO WE BUG?

Although under domestic law GCHQ needs a warrant from the Home
Secretary to tap telephones in Britain, it can do so abroad
without such authorisation.

But the United Nations headquarters in New York is considered
sovereign territory, and placing a bug there would be illegal
under international law.

Intelligence services spy on hostile and friendly countries, the
latter mainly for commercial reasons, but also to gain an edge
in diplomatic negotiations. Nato allies are not always immune
from intelligence operations by Britain.

Staff working for the UN inspection teams in Iraq were convinced
they were under surveillance.

France, Germany and Russia complained of a rise in espionage
against them. There was intense activity directed at Jordan and
Syria, as well as Saudi Arabia, Yemen and Egypt.

Officials say the only shock about Katharine Gun's discovery of
an e-mail from the National Security Agency is that she was
surprised by it.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/politics/story.jsp?story=3D495514



[UFO UpDates thanks Stuart Miller for the lead]







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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Nov > Nov 30

               Re: First Quasi-Satellite Of Venus Discovered -

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 06:38:09 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 10:42:35 -0500
Subject: Re: First Quasi-Satellite Of Venus Discovered -


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:41:44 -0600
>Subject: Re: First Quasi-Satellite Of Venus Discovered

>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 11:49:52 -0400
>>Subject: Re: First Quasi-Satellite Of Venus Discovered

>>>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 15:52:56 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
>>>Subject: First Quasi-Satellite Of Venus Discovered

>>>Hi Everyone!

>>>We all know that the closest planet to us in space is Venus,
>>>the Earth's 'twin' planet. This very bright celestial object is
>>>sometimes seen in the sky at dawn or dusk and is often mistaken
>>>for a UFO.

><snip>

>>Any information regarding the size of 2002 VE68. How close to
>>Earth's orbit does it come. I've often thought that someday we
>>would uses asteroids for research, hitching free rides on - or
>>in - them. Maybe others do.

<snip>

>We were born to capture these things like they were wooly
>mammoths. We were made to steer these things around the sky like
>beasts of heavy burden. In that noble pursuit we've nothing to
>lose and everything to gain for our boldness...  besides, our
>boldness will likely bring mighty forces to our aid!

>Get real, people! This much maligned cloud looks to me to be
>virtually all silver lining...  if we want it to be. Read on!

>alienview.nul  -:|:-
>   www.AlienView.net

Hi Alfred, Don, Nick...

Alfred's prosaic contemplation on asteroids... sprinkled on
Nick's post on the Venus discovery, and stirred with Don's near-
hypothesis on their possible current use as 'ski-lifts' to the
solar system and beyond... tastes like a real potential purpose
for the emerging private, civilian space industry.

As Alfred points out, they could harbor a treasure trove of
resources, and would require the combined efforts of
astronomers, computational physicists, space engineers, and
adventurous 'spelunkers'. Fortunately, the aforementioned
industry has an abundance of all of these, and a share more.
Moneyed individuals are now also casting a serious gaze on space
travel, and they rarely 'if ever' do so out of philanthropic
motives alone.

An attempt to intercept and mine or at least survey such a rock
would provide opportunities in all aspects of space travel, from
effects of weird rotation, trajectory and telemetry
calculations, and experiment packages that could remain on the
body for retrieval on a subsequent near-pass, to searching for
remnants or building blocks of life, and evidence of prior
visitation.

From such a beginning, it wouldn't be long before missions were
sent to inhabit such a rock, to build shelters and food
production facilities, for a long-term trip into the cosmos...
to return like Nibiru, for a short jump back to home base, and
maybe even a crew rotation.

That all of this could be attempted by the private sector 'and
it could' would avoid Alfred's unelected regime, and would
answer only to the almighty dollar 'a stronger force than even
the most duplicitous unelected regime', especially once said
resources began to be exploited for profit.

If Paul Allen, Richard Branson, and a few other dreamers found
the group that could do this knocking on their doors, I suspect
that it would be not only possible, but a moral, and even
corporate imperative.

And even if aliens are not using asteroids and proto-moons to
move about, we would still be much further along in our
knowledge if we did.

Refreshingly upbeat posts, and provocative of great things.

Kudos to you three, and Best Regards to you all,


Kyle








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                       A New Lie Detection Technology?

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:40:39 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 10:45:24 -0500
Subject: A New Lie Detection Technology?


Well I saw this coming years ago. A new way for telling who's
naughty or nice.

If applied to abductees will it reveal they're imagining or
lying or just respond to what they feel to their viewpoint is
the truth?

When it comes to debunkers, will it reveal their true intention?

How will this new procedure stand up to more analysis and
application?

This is going to be fun to watch develope.

Best,

Greg

-----

Source: Reuters

http://www.alertnet.org/printable.htm?URL=/thenews/newsdesk/N29414549.htm

29 Nov 2004 18:29:42 GMT

Brain Scan Shows Differences In Truth, Lying

By Maggie Fox
Health and Science Correspondent


WASHINGTON, Nov 29 (Reuters) - Brain scans show that the brains
of people who are lying look very different from those of people
who are telling the truth, U.S. researchers said on Monday.

The study, using functional magnetic resonance imaging or fMRI,
not only sheds light on what goes on when people lie but may
also provide new technology for lie-detecting, the researchers
said.

"There may be unique areas in the brain involved in deception
that can be measured with fMRI," said Dr. Scott Faro, director
of the Functional Brain Imaging Center at Temple University
School of Medicine in Philadelphia.

"There may be unique areas in the brain involved in truth-
telling," Faro added at a news conference.

Faro and colleagues tested 10 volunteers. Six of them were asked
to shoot a toy gun and then lie and say they didn't do it. Three
others who watched told the truth about what happened. One
volunteer dropped out of the study.

While giving their "testimony," the volunteers were hooked up
both to a conventional polygraph and also had their brain
activity imaged using fMRI, which used a strong magnet to
provide a real-time picture of brain activity.

There were clear differences between the liars and the truth-
tellers, Faro's team told a meeting in Chicago of the
Radiological Society of North America.

"We found a total of seven areas of activation in the deception
(group)," he said. "We found four areas of activity in the
truth-telling arm."

Overall, it seemed to take more brain effort to tell the lie
than to tell the truth, Faro found.

Lying caused activity in the frontal part of the brain --- the
medial inferior and pre-central areas, as well as the
hippocampus and middle temporal regions and the limbic areas.
Some of these are involved in emotional responses, Faro said.

During a truthful response, the fMRI showed activation of parts
of the brain's frontal lobe, temporal lobe and cingulate gyrus.

Faro said the study was small and limited. Volunteers were not
asked to try especially hard to deceive the equipment, he said -
- noting that it has been documented that some people can fool a
polygraph using various techniques.

Using fMRI as a lie detector is expensive, but it may be
worthwhile in some cases -- such as trying to question a
terrorism suspect, or in a high-profile corporate crime case,
Faro said.







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                  Re: How Is UK Ufology Faring? - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 13:44:52 -0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 10:48:01 -0500
Subject: Re: How Is UK Ufology Faring? - McGonagle


>From: Roy Hale <vinyl.lover10.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 23:08:24 -0000
>Subject: How Is UK Ufology Faring?

>It has now been over a year since Graham Birdsall of Quest
>International's UFO Magazine passed away.

>How is UK Ufology faring since the closure of UFO UK Magazine?

>Has the debate gone?

Definitely not. The ufologyinuk list at:

http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/ufologyinuk

today has 862 registered members and averages in the order of
150 messages per month. This seems to have been unaffected
either way by the demise of UFO magazine. Also, Stuart Miller's
"UFO Review" at:

http://www.uforeview.net/

has filled the void left by UFO Magazine to some extent, though
I don't know what the circulation is.

>Have UFO sightings become less of a topic for discussion in the
>UK?

I doubt it, though it is difficult to judge the level of
discussion outside the ufology scene - I suspect that it was
never a major topic for discussion outside the scene in the last
15 years or so to start with. Within the ufological domain, it
appears to be "business as usual".

>How major a role did UK UFO magazine play in keeping UK UFO
>research in the public mind?

I suspect that it had only a minor impact outside of ufology. I
have however noticed that the media are finding it more
difficult to resource commentators about ufology, previously
they had an obvious point of contact, now they are resorting to
contacting internet web masters and individual ufologists for
referrals to local investigators.

>How high is the readership for the USA and Brazilian UFO
>Magazines?

>Who will be writing the history of ufology? The sceptics, or the
>people who have witnessed strange things, beings, craft etc.

The people who are willing to research the history in the first
place, whether they are sceptically inclined or not. Many
so-called "ufologists" are looking for the "quick fix" and can't
be bothered to research the history, which they regard as
irrelevant.

>Is the alien agenda a mere blur from past decades, where slick
>design and colourful graphics inspired us to revel in a
>beautiful mystery?

What "alien agenda"? If you know that there is one, then surely
there is no "beautiful mystery", you have already solved it?

>How many UK UFO groups are receiving regular sightings and
>contact reports?

I haven't noticed any decline, though it is more difficult to
find out about them. Previously, many local sightings would have
been given column space in UFO Magazine, now it tends to be via
the internet or by reading the local group publications.

>Is there a 'New Ufology'? An underground ufology, a mutation
>caused by he fragmentation of mainstream ufology?

If there is, it is very underground - I haven't tripped over it
yet.

>Who is still telling people that UFOs are not real, yet still
>make their wares available in media circles, promoting their own
>form of closet ufology?

I don't know, do you have any suggestions?

>Who now keeps the MoD on their toes in the UK, regarding UFO
>sightings?

As always, the regular correspondents with the MOD. There may be
one less now, but  there are still some left.

>Isn't strange that those people lucky enough to film anything
>decent in the UK, are put against the media faces of mainstream
>ridicule, and then quit?

I'm not sure what you are getting at here, do you have any
examples?

>What does a psychologist know about video tape film? Aren t they
>supposed to be looking at the mind and its workings?

Again, I'm not sure what you are getting at here - can you
provide more details about the psychologist that has been
evaluating British video footage?


Regards,

Joe








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                'The Forgotten' A Film About Alien Abduction

From: Sean Jones <Sean.Jones.nul>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 13:52:09 -0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 10:50:53 -0500
Subject: 'The Forgotten' A Film About Alien Abduction


Good Day All

I went to see a film which I thought was being advertised as a
horror film.

Much to my surprise it is about alien abduction. To which this
gives away a chunk of the film's plot.

If you get the chance, go and see The Forgotten.

Not only is it a good film, but there are many subtle things
which those interested in alien abduction will be very
interested, and amazed that it has been shown to mainstream
cinema audiences _without_ gloss or scorn.


Regards

Sean Jones
(now only an occasional poster <g>)








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                Re: Aykroyd Expounds On His Belief In UFOs -

From: Diana Cammack <cammack.nul>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 15:49:16 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 10:54:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Aykroyd Expounds On His Belief In UFOs -


>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>To: <- UFO UpDates Subscrbers ->
>Date: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 2:49 PM
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Aykroyd Expounds On His Belief In UFOs


>Source: MSNBC

>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6612272/

>11-30-04

>Dan Aykroyd Is A Real-Life Grinch
>But actor expounds on his belief in UFOs

>By Jeannette Walls
>MSNBC

<snip>

>http://www.darkhorizons.com/news04/krank3.php

<snip>

>You've been hearing of these sightings in Carmite Yukon with
>these ships 200 feet across. Two to three hundred people have
>seen them Mounties have seen them. There's huge, massive mother
>ships going up to the Yukon. They've been filmed and are on
>video. Fifty-four percent of the world believes that there's
>something inter-dimensional or extraterrestrial going on here.
>And the rest.so we need sceptics. I invite you to go on the
>website and look through the material.


Can someone point me to a link to the 'Yukon sightings'?

Thanks.

Diana








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             Re: UFO Cult Names Eminem 'Honorary Priest' - Groff

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 07:54:18 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 10:56:31 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Cult Names Eminem 'Honorary Priest' - Groff


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 19:27:00 -0600
>Subject: Re: UFO Cult Names Eminem 'Honorary Priest'


>>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 12:05:52 -0600
>>Subject: UFO Cult Names Eminem 'Honorary Priest'

>>Bestowed on a guy who wrote a song about killing his mother
>>(sic).

><snip>

>>Eminem's politically charged video for "Mosh" has earned him
>>recognition as "honorary priest" of the anti-violence UFO cult,
>>The Raelian Movement.

><snip>

>How odd that a group as ridiculous as the Raelians could garner
>major publicity just by bestowing honorary priesthood on an
>earthly star.

>So much more odd that *news* of such a perverse exercise found
>its way to this List.

<snip>

Hi Kyle,

If I hadn't posted it, someone else would have. If it wasn't
worthy of the list, Errol wouldn't have allowed it.


Terry








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                              The Bamboo Saucer

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 10:59:22 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:25:16 -0500
Subject: The Bamboo Saucer


Pardon if I've posted this before but an interesting flick I saw
years ago about UFOs was called, The Bamboo Saucer.

I'm sure it's out on VHS somewhere and if it comes out on DVD
I'll buy it.

I was mentioning this film one day to a retired Secret Service
agent I know and he brightened up and told me some interesting
things about the film. Him being security for many Hollywood
elite types he recalled how the film was a hot topic and had
according to him been banned for some time and then hit the
airwaves. I saw it first back in the mid 80s on late night tv.

Anyone recall this flick and it's history?

It was about a special mission to Red China to recover a saucer
that had been hidden in a Catholic mission by the peasants. The
Communist Party, Soviets and Americans were on a rush to reclaim
it deep in Chinese territory. However the Soviets and U.S.
arrived at the same time and joined forces as a Chinese
battalion was encroaching on their position.


Best,

Greg








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             Re: Aykroyd Expounds On His Belief In UFOs - Warren

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 10:19:52 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:28:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Aykroyd Expounds On His Belief In UFOs - Warren


>From: Diana Cammack <cammack.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 15:49:16 +0200
>Subject: Re: Aykroyd Expounds On His Belief In UFOs

>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>To: <- UFO UpDates Subscrbers ->
>>Date: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 2:49 PM
>>Subject: UFO UpDate: Aykroyd Expounds On His Belief In UFOs

>>Source: MSNBC

>>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6612272/

>>11-30-04

>>Dan Aykroyd Is A Real-Life Grinch
>>But actor expounds on his belief in UFOs

>>By Jeannette Walls
>>MSNBC

><snip>

>>http://www.darkhorizons.com/news04/krank3.php

><snip>

>>You've been hearing of these sightings in Carmite Yukon with
>>these ships 200 feet across. Two to three hundred people have
>>seen them Mounties have seen them. There's huge, massive mother
>>ships going up to the Yukon. They've been filmed and are on
>>video. Fifty-four percent of the world believes that there's
>>something inter-dimensional or extraterrestrial going on here.
>>And the rest.so we need sceptics. I invite you to go on the
>>website and look through the material.

>Can someone point me to a link to the 'Yukon sightings'?



Diana,

Here's a start:

http://www.ufobc.ca/yukon/


Regards,

Frank








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             Re: UFO Cult Names Eminem 'Honorary Priest' - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 10:39:04 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:30:37 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Cult Names Eminem 'Honorary Priest' - King


>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 07:54:18 -0600
>Subject: Re: UFO Cult Names Eminem 'Honorary Priest'

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 19:27:00 -0600
>>Subject: Re: UFO Cult Names Eminem 'Honorary Priest'

>>>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 12:05:52 -0600
>>>Subject: UFO Cult Names Eminem 'Honorary Priest'

>>>Bestowed on a guy who wrote a song about killing his mother
>>>(sic).

>><snip>

>If I hadn't posted it, someone else would have. If it wasn't
>worthy of the list, Errol wouldn't have allowed it.


Hi Terry,

Nothing personal, and your point is well-taken. I often forget
that the List is moderated, and thank goodness for that.

Guess I'm just cranky. Must be the weather. <g>

Regards,

Kyle








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               Re: Looking For Copy Of UFO Register - Castner

From: Mary Castner <castner.m.nul>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 11:07:26 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:32:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Looking For Copy Of UFO Register - Castner


Hello,

I am looking for a copy of UFO Register Vol 6, #2. If anyone has
a copy I will be glad to pay copy and postage costs.

Please contact me off-List.


Thanks much

Mary








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               Re: Chapala Jalisco Mexico Saucer-Shaped Craft

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO Research <hbccufo.nul>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:27:55 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:35:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Chapala Jalisco Mexico Saucer-Shaped Craft


Chapala Jalisco, M=E9xico Saucer Shaped Craft

Date:  September 11, 2004
Time:  3:30 p.m.

Here is the  anecdote:

On sep/11/2004 Chapala Jalisco, M=E9xico at about 15:30 pm. My
family and I  went to dinner to the real Chapala Hotel (Ajijic
Jalisco, Mexico). We ate and then went to table next to the
pool, and I saw an object with a shape like a saucer with an
American-ball inside. I said look an UFO and it moved up an down
nearly of surface of the lake, we saw too an exhaust coming from
the object and suddenly go down to the surface of  the lake and
it would navigate on the water for about 50 mts. then
disappeared.

Thank you to the witness for the interesting report and the
photos.

To view Photos:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D2102


Brian Vike
Director HBCC UFO Research
Phone 250 845 2189
email: hbccufo.nul
Website: http://www.hbccufo.com
Redirect: http://www.canadianufo.com
HBCC UFO RESEARCH Newsletter
: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HBCC_UFO_Newsletter/

HBCC UFO Research
Box 1091 Houston
British Columbia
Canada - VOJ 1ZO