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sean(doc)martin
11-16-2004, 06:40 PM
We can only partially comprehend the notion of God's existence. To do so, we must use human concepts to speak of God: "without beginning or end"; "eternal"; "infinite", etc. The Bible says that He has always existed: " . . . even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God" (Psalm 90:2). And, "Your throne is established from of old; Thou art from everlasting" (Psalm 93:2). Quite simply, God has no beginning and no end. So, where did God come from? He didn't. He always was.

To us, the notion of time is linear. One second follows the next, one minute is after another. We get older, not younger and we cannot repeat the minutes that have passed us by. We have all seen the time lines on charts: early time is on the left and later time is on the right. We see nations, people's lives, and plans mapped out on straight lines from left to right. We see a beginning and an end. But God is "beyond the chart." He has no beginning or end. He simply has always been.

Also, physics has shown that time is a property that is the result of the existence of matter. Time exists when matter exists. Time has even been called the fourth dimension. But God is not matter. In fact, God created matter. He created the universe. So, time began when God created the universe. Before that, God was simply existing and time had no meaning (except conceptually), no relation to Him. Therefore, to ask where God came from is to ask a question that cannot really be applied to God in the first place. Because time has no meaning with God in relation to who He is, eternity is also not something that can be absolutely related to God. God is even beyond eternity.

Eternity is a term that we finite creatures use to express the concept of something that has no end -- and/or no beginning. Since God has no beginning or end, He has no beginning. This is because He is outside of time.

This question is logically problematic. If everything needs a creator, than no matter what exists, it must have been created. Furthermore, to be created means that someone or something had to create it. But then, who created the creator and so on? Logically, this would mean there would be an infinite regression of creators and we would never be able to find the first, uncaused cause since, by definition (the questions says that "everything needs a creator") there wouldn't be any uncaused cause. This would mean that the sequence of creations is eternal. But, if it exists that there is an eternal regression of creators, then who created the infinite regression of creators? Remember, the question presupposes that all things need a creator -- even the eternal sequence of creators -- which becomes logically absurd. Furthermore, if there is an eternal regression of creators that are eternal, then the question is not answered. In fact, it cannot be answered since it weakness is that "all things need a creator." Of course, this only begs the question in that how did the process begin? Therefore, the question only raises the same problem it asks and it is a question that, by its own design, cannot be answered. Therefore, it is invalid.

The question is better phrased as a statement: "Everything that has come into existence, was brought into existence by something else." This is a more logical statement and is not wrought with the difficulties of the initial question. In the revised statement "Everything that has come into existence," implies that the thing that "has come into existence" did not already exist. If it did not already exist but then came into existence, then something had to bring it into existence because something that does not exist cannot bring itself into existence (a logical absolute). This pushes the regression of creators back to what we would call the theoretical "uncaused cause" since there cannot be an infinite regression of creators as discussed above and since in infinite number of creators would mean there was an infinite number of creations and created things including things that cannot be destroyed since they would constitute things that exist. If that is so, then the universe would have had an infinite number of created things in it and it would be full. But it is not full. Therefore, there has not been an infinite regression of creations.

By definition, the Christian God never came into existence; that is, He is the uncaused cause (Psalm 90:2). He was always in existence and He is the one who created space, time, and matter. This means that the Christian God is the uncaused cause and is the ultimate creator. This eliminates the infinite regression problem.

But some may ask, "But who created God?" But the answer is that by definition He is not created; He is eternal. He is the One who brought time, space, and matter into existence. Since the concept of causality deals with space, time, and matter, and since God is one who brought space, time, and matter into existence, the concept of causality does not apply to God since it is something related to the reality of space, time, and matter. Since God is before space, time, and matter, the issue of causality does not apply to Him.

Cracker oftheWhip
11-16-2004, 08:05 PM
So, God always existed? Why does he exist Doc?

Bragi
11-16-2004, 08:36 PM
Define "god". You're out there in la la land trying to explain this god thing, person, force, entity, power, being, whatever. Define god, then write your little manifesto of man in the sky mumbo-jumbo.

How can you religious nitwits think that the Earth and the Sun and Universe were "created" by some being. christians are the human equivalent of rabbits.

It just is. No all powerful being was behind it. Here's my idea of "god".

http://bluepoint.egenet.net/sagan/galaxy.gif

At least my god people can see. It kind of helps when you can see the thing you're talking about.

MOMUS
11-16-2004, 09:39 PM
Doc has a picture of god too.

http://www.ldstaiwan.com/english/images/jesus.jpg

sean(doc)martin
That was the picturethey had in the college I attended. Thanks I have been looking for that. :)
Notice how white and Aryan, basically non-Jewish Jesus is?

Originally Posted by IronWorker
[size=4]Dude, no one knows what Jesus looked like.[/size] His appearance is not described in the jewish Bible.

You saw the picture didn't you? Jesus was white.

http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.php?p=108187


[QUOTE=Bragi]Define "god".
It kind of helps when you can see the thing you're talking about.[/QUOTE]

Cracker oftheWhip
11-16-2004, 10:21 PM
[url="http://www.sexncrime.net/index.php?p=6"][color=black]God Proves That God Does Not Exist[/color] (http://www.sexncrime.net/index.php?p=6)[/url]
[font=arial][size=1][color=#0000ff]Philosophy & Religion[/color] (http://www.sexncrime.net/index.php?cat=5)
OMG @ 2:29 pm
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[font=arial][size=2][color=black]I studied theology and philosophy. We had to learn about all the great thinkers throughout the ages, and what they had to say about God. Basically there are 2 schools of thought: One says our lives are predetermined by a higher power, and the other one says that everything we do is up to us, without a higher power guiding us.

I have always found the arguments against the existance of a god far more convincing than the arguments for the existence of a god.

A smart man once said “extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.” In other words, I might take your word for it if you tell me it rained yesterday, but you’re gonna have to show me some proof if you’re going to claim it rained yesterday because a unicorn peed on a rainbow.

Basically those who claim there is a god don’t have one single convincing argument. Whenever I debate this stuff with them, the bottom line from their end is: “If there is no god, then where did all this come from?”

That is not an argument, it’s a question. And the question is illogical if you think it through.

Why do they ask that question? Because they can’t wrap their minds around the idea that all the stuff around us, the universe, has always existed. It was never created. It never started. It was always there.

Then the pro-god crowd replies: “That’s impossible! Nothing can have existed forever. It must have started at one point. It must have been created at some point. It must have been created by god!”

That’s when I ask them: “So, when was god created?”

And they reply: “God always existed. He was never created. He never started. He was always there.”

See the flaw in that logic?

There is absolutely no reason why there needs to be a god, because the definition of god itself is a paradox. If it is possible that something called “god” can exist forever, without ever having been created, then that very same possibility applies to something called “universe". So the very idea that god has existed “forever without being created", at the very same time eliminates the need for a god altogether.

It simply does not make any kind of sense to refuse to believe that the universe could have existed forever (no creator!), but at the same time believe that god could have existed forever.

Bottom-line: If you believe it is possible god existed forever, you just proved that god was completely unnecessary, because the universe could have just aswell existed forever, without there ever being a god creating it.
The debate continues at the link in the title.
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