Any of you NS Hitlerite anti-Christians care to reconcile Hitler's adoration for Wagner, his sponsorship of Bayreuth, the musical drama Parsifal with its Christian themes and symbolism, with your own simplisitic dismissal of Christianity as nothing more than a Jew scheme to drag Aryans down?

Any of you NS Hitlerite anti-Christians care to reconcile Hitler's adoration for Wagner, his sponsorship of Bayreuth, the musical drama Parsifal with its Christian themes and symbolism, with your own simplisitic dismissal of Christianity as nothing more than a Jew scheme to drag Aryans down?

Why sure, A.E., but you left out Lohengrin with it's own conflict between the Norse pagan past and christian present (present as in when it is set, but also when it was written). It's complicated, that is all. And, even though Der Fuhrer loved Parsifal (the only Wagner opera I don't get), it was the only one that he banned performance of (I believe) during the war. See, complicated?
I've noticed you mentioned Parsifal before - do you like it because it is Parsifal or because it is part of the larger Wagner works? As, in, do you like Wagner beyond Parsifal?

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Yes it is complicated which is why it deserves more than just a simple dismissal.

Ha, good observations Gott. You're a sharp tack in a drawer of dull ones. Of course I love Wagner beyond Parsifal.

Maybe you or the Craig Smith who has mentioned "Nietzche contra Wagner" could talk more about this? To illuminate others who may not be familiar with these tensions in Wagner's work?

Oh jeez....Nietzche. That big Nietzsche quote 'discussion' here a while ago really scared the stuffings out of me. Nietzsche is so dense that you can claim he meant just about anything, with the right quotation. That thread proved he was rabidly anti semitic as well as rabidly anti anti semitism - as long as the anti semitism came from professed christian...or something like that. It was a bit too deep for me.

I believe that Wagner and Nietzsche were initially personal friends and Nietzsche was a big Wagner booster, but then turned against him vehemently. But the turning against him was also deep in the going clinically insane portion of Nietzsche's life which might have had a lot to do with it.

Wagner was a very difficult man (what a sleazy sex life, and so really nasty to many other fine composers - Italian ones in particular), and in my youth I didn't like his music or him as a person. Now I love his music, but I still have to wonder about him as a person - and even more so about that awful second wife of his. Amazing that a woman so terrible could have been the daughter of a man so genuinely saintly as Franz Liszt. But...I also am wondering more and more, if the worst things said about Wagner are not somehow deeply caught up in the fact that jews control all information and the ways in which it is made accessible (or not) and presented. And of course he was passionately anti semitic and thus the kikes had their motive to paint him into the Hollywood monster he has become. But, while Wagner hated the jew, he sometimes had very close working and even personal relationships with specific jews - for instance Emanuel Levy, the head conductor at Bayreuth all through Wagner's lifetime or Carl Tausig the exceptionally great pianist who Wagner virtually 'stole' away from Liszt and loved almost as a son.

The Redemption and salvation of a man through the love of a woman who sacrifices everything for him are central concepts in Wagner's operas, and connected to it, the completely unquestioning and slave like devotion of the good women to their men might be part of Nietzsche's objections, and the deep spirituality so involved with renunciation. One problem I have with Parsifal is that the orchestral writing is so sparse or colorless that it seems kind of bloodless to me. Not just accepting of death but actively looking forward to it - to oblivion. Maybe these various examples of highly non-superman weakness, and his contradictory attitude to wards jews, are what turned Nietzsche against Wagner's work? There are a lot of Nietzsche experts on this forum though and they should kick in with more than my guesses. I have Nietzsche's thing on Wagner, and I have most of Cosima's letters (god, what a bitch) somewhere and will do some checking around to see what I can find out.

I know a bit more about the Wagner Schopenhauer relationship as Tristan und Isolde (one of my favorites) is much imbued with impulses so like those of this deeply nihilistic philosopher.

I'm pretty sure I didn't answer what you asked of me, kamerad....but I love Wager, and opera, so much that I was not going to miss a chance like this.

Oh, I was going to weigh in on that slug fest of yours over Marc Moran, but decided again't it as I didn't want to help keep it going. I really loved Marc's writings and miss them a lot. I understand having to bow to such obscene public pressures and I completely sympathize with him and with his family. I'm sure I would not have stood up any better - we are all so alone and small against the horrible and malevolent power of the jews and anyway, it is better to live to fight another day. Battles are not wars. I don't know the whole story, and no one else does either except Marc Moran. And it is nobody's business either. It is so tough to get the jew poison out of one's system...the belief in easy Television-show answers, the simple minded black and white about all issues, the ease with which we become addicted to totally indecent prying into other people's private lives, etc. One reason I so loathe the kikes is because of what they have done to privacy and decency. But I like Brock's stuff too:), just not about Marc Moran.
See you at the front.

Well, that was quite a reply about Wagner. I've been reading a bio about him for years, probably by some kike, cant recall who. I've listened to recordings for years and just went to Siegfried. I mention him in part because he and Nietzche were right at the nexus of many things that continue to plague and concern and fascinate us even today as is apparent from the convesations at this board. Such as the differences between Mediterranean and Nordic societies in Europe, such as sorting out Christianity, paganism, and atheism; such as our mixed feelings about women and their role in society; and such as nationalism versus some broader concept in politics. All of these themes are manifestly present and worth exploring.

It would help if some of the blowhards vociferously standing on their statements would devote more effort to exposition than cussing.

I look forward to more additions to this theme. Other comments?

Your comment about the theme of the redemptive love of woman- - which I definitely saw in Siegfried- reminds me of Bachofen.

I was introduced to Bachofen by a very excellent contributor to VNN who has not been in contact for a long time, one Dresden aka JCC. You know who that is? Est-ce que c'est toi? I've suspected this more than once.

JCC had some very pointed views on Nietzche.

If JCC is out there, know that you're missed.

Not much to add after the long reply by Gott here, but I will still weigh in. Nietzsche, as I understand it, loved Wagner's work that rested so heavily on Nordic mythology. And yet, he eventually came to despise Wagner since the composer wouldn't make a thorough break with Christianity, and since he lived so ... "flamboyantly" I believe is a good word. Also, he didn't like the people Wagner surrounded himself with.

Wagner did, however, do a great deal for nationalism, as those familiar with his work are aware. He planned for Nibelungenleid to light a nationalist fire which would spread all over the nation, but it would only be played once, after which the leader of the orchestra would grab the script and the notes and jump into a roaring fire. Quite dramatic; would have loved to see a show like that.

Ah, the Entrance of the Gods into Valhalla, and the Ride of the Valkyries! Great work. Perfect melody for that Apocalypse Now scene, too: tam-tam-taram-taa-tam, tam-taram-taa-tam, tam-taram-taaa! Also, Wagner was probably correct in stating that the Jews are incapable of creating something genuinely new on their own, that they are simply copying other races. (Heck, not even the Hollywood industry, which they use to such an extent, has ever been their creation, really. The only Jews I have ever seen who have broken the pattern are the ones involved in making the Simpsons.)


I also liked Moran's writings, he was real good at what he did. I learned a great deal from his style -- his two styles, I should say: the down-to-earth writing style and the comic style. I have saved those articles that can be found in VNN Articles now, but many are missing, like a comic interview with Satan, and another where the United States invades Hell to create a regime change. If anyone would have those or other late articles by him, I would like to see them again.

You have to be racially aware to "get" Wagner. Wagner's daughter (?), I believe, told Hitler he was the only one who interpreted the operas correctly.

Many of the racial metaphors are obvious, like the Jewish characters. However, I havn't heard any of Wagner's operas in their entirety, so maybe someone else can talk about the significance of the golden ring.

Also, what's the connection with the golden rings in Lord of the Rings? Easily interpreted as a racial-metaphor-drama, and given Tolkien's obvious awareness of the Ring Cycle, what gives?

His daughter in law - English by birth, I think.

The first Ring opera begins rather awesomely deep down on the bed of the Rhine river with 3 naked children of nature - the Rhine maidens - swimming around illuminated by the pulsating light that comes from a golden ring - the Rhine gold. An ugly, misshapen and crippled Nibelung/dwarf wanders through -Alberich - and is smitten by their beauty. They cruelly mock him for coming on to them. Since he is incapable of being loved, in a fury of hatred he settles for the magic ring and steals it, plunging them into despairing darkness. The Rhine gold is not a material object desired because it is valuable, but something that is a part of and a magic force of nature, and the Rhine maidens are not moral or immoral, but amoral, also forces of nature from before the invention of morality and all the other intermediary forces between man and nature, created by man.

The second scene introduces the Gods - who have a pretty amusing domestic situation with Wotan being nagged a lot by Fricka his wife (who was modeling on Wagner's first wife, Minna). Wotan has built Walhall/Valhalla for her (so she will shut up) and when the two brother giants he contracted to build it demand payment - he must give them the only really valuable thing he has, the Goddess Freia - of eternal youth and beauty and love (I named a black lab after her once). He has to pay because he is a God and Gods can't lie and cheat. But the minute they take Freia away, the Gods begin to grow old. The only answer is to trick Alberich out of the Rhine gold.

So, in the next scene Wotan and the really sharp, sarcastic and ironic God Loge (fire - as quick and sharp as - a wonderful tenor role) go down through the earth to where Alberich is now working the other Nibelungen as slaves. As Alberich was denied and is incapable of love (the jew) he has become a raging monster obsessed by wealth and power. With Loge's very clever help Wotan manipulates Alberich's absurd sense of self-importance (the jew again) to trick and catch him (by daring him that he can't transform himself into a mouse, and when he does Wotan grabs him) and force him to give up the gold ring.
Alberich curses anyone who has the ring with misery and death.

In the wonderful last scene, Wotan and Loge ascend back to the earth and reclaim Freia from the giants by giving them the Rhine gold in exchange. Immediately the two giant brothers fight and one kills the other - the curse of the ring is beginning.

Erda - the most ancient earth goddess (and an ex significant other of Wotan, I believe) - rises up from the depths to warn Wotan that a world built on such sleaze and treachery is doomed, but he won't listen. He was stuck because he had to have Walhall in the first place - things, stuff - and got out by stealing Alberich's gold, which he in turn had first stolen from the Rhine maidens because of bitterness and hatred.

A giant thunderstorm comes up and with his hammer, the God Donner smites it and as the air clears (the most incredible music here) a rainbow bridge appears, which spans from the mossy bank where the Gods are, across the Rhine river valley far below, to Walhall hovering in the air on the other side. Wotan leads Fricka and the other Gods across as the Rhine maidens sing (incredibly seductively) down below of their lost gold, and Loge gleefully and sarcastically predicts that the Gods are going to their doom. The music here is of unimaginable grandeur.

It is awe inspiring and gigantic and yet only the first and shortest opera of the four that make up the Ring. Das Rheingold sets forth all the exposition for what follows with Siegmund, Sieglinde, Siegfried, Brunnhilde, etc. It is, and always has been, totally impossible to stage, though people used to try. There are terrific etchings of production machines for doing the Rhine way down under water and the Rhine maidens swimming around suspended in the 'water' etc.

George Bernard Shaw wrote a long and famous book on the Ring operas (The Perfect Wagnerite, I think it is called) in which he makes a pretty good case that what they are saying is that we have sold our natural birthright for 20 pieces of silver and that nothing built on lies and trickery and slime values - like money - can ever stand. That before a decent world of love can arise the horrible world of corruption built on money must be destroyed - as it is destroyed at the end of the 16 hour Ring cycle. Gotterdammurung ends with the world on fire and then the Rhine overspilling its banks so the Rhine maidens can reclaim their gold and drag under the waves to drown, the last slimy operator who tried to get his hands on it.

It's heavy going in places because it was written over a 20 or so year period and Wagner felt the need to periodically remind the listener of all the givens with long and to many (like me for instance) fairly dry and boring narrative sections where characters retell each other the story. And, Wagner is super long winded always. He can't be cut though, because that is part of what makes him ...him.

If you want to try - start with a good recording of Walkure. That is the most accessible one and has some of the most sublime music and dramatic situations too. The Spring duet where Siegmund and Sieglinde rapturously run out into the night can make your knees knock it is so delirious. You don't even mind that they are long lost brother and sister, considering the music. And the whole Ride of the Walkure thing is in this one, and at the end, the exquisite scene where Wotan has to put his favorite daughter to perhaps eternal sleep because she disobeyed him in helping Siegmund (who is, by the way, Wotan's son). Brunnhilde must sleep surrounded by a ring of magic fire (the music is indescribably wonderful all through this duet - you have to be dead to not cry) that will forever remain unbroken unless and until a great hero dares all to pass through it and awaken her with a kiss.

That great hero turns up in the next opera - Siegfried. And he dares all, including fighting and killing a giant dragon, to pass through the flames and awaken Brunnhilde in the dawn duet at the end of it, which is another example of the most spectacularly great music in the ring. It is very hard to pull off as the tenor has been singing for 4 hours and is dead tired and the soprano just woke up and is in great shape.

Anyway, we need to reclaim our culture and that means hard work. The scale of the whole thing is astonishing and a spectacular example of what White Men used to accomplish. Funny - if that is the right word - how something as complicated and demanding at the Ring used to be part of all cultured person's general knowledge. It is ennobling and the antithesis of jew mockery and snide putting down of nobility and heroism, and it does what all great art does - makes us better people. Art is the mortal enemy of the jew, who can only subjugate us by dumbing us down and turning everything beautiful and noble into slime.

Wagner wrote the words too, and they are very closely wedded to the music. Follow with a libretto and it's much better.

Fred- alexa.com has a link to the mother of all internet archives, the "waybackmachine." they have a vnn archive of the old web page with the articles right up to last july. I havent checked the two MM essays you mention but it would be worth it to check this out yourself just to learn to use the archive. it's out there taking pictures of web pages every day. incredible the WWW!

re Siegfried, Gott sure is right about the last act. In Chicago a month or two ago, John Trealeaven was playing Siegfried and when big fat Jane Eaglen was awakened in the last act and started in on her stuff, Trealeven flagged badly after while. Then again I thought he was way to buffo all along. Not serious.

Woden was played by James Morris, that was no disappointment. The best was Mime, played by one very Italian American David Cangelosi. Outstanding, very much like the Gollum recreating in the movie LOTR series. He moved around quite a bit, and the voice was well matched. The reforging of Nothung was very exciting. I was imagining all these parallels to our thing. Ah well gotta go-

Any of you NS Hitlerite anti-Christians care to reconcile Hitler's adoration for Wagner, his sponsorship of Bayreuth, the musical drama Parsifal with its Christian themes and symbolism, with your own simplisitic dismissal of Christianity as nothing more than a Jew scheme to drag Aryans down?

Antiochus I am surprised by your choice of name considering that you are so pro christian.
Regarding Wagners sacred opera of Parsifal it is only ostensibly a christian passion play but if you pay close attention to the subtext and the overt symbolism then you would begin to realise that there is more to this music drama than meets the eye.
It is all about the religion of the Aryan blood. It is the blood that is central to the drama and Parsifal is the incarnation of the Aryan christ-the coming Kalki Avatara who will redeem the Aryan race from the threat of biological extinction through the blood poisoning brought about by miscegenation.
It is through the coupling of the Aryan king Amfortas and the Jew like Kundry that his blood is contaminated and that of his whole kingdom. Parsifal is the redeeming Aryan hero who restores the Aryan kingdom of Monsalvat to racial purity.
This is the reason why this opera was so beloved of Hitler and why he and other National Socialists regard Wagner is such high esteem. He was a prophet of race who expressed his concepts through music,poetry and drama and the occasional essay where he brought forth his themes of redemption and the wandering Jew.
Parsifal is the best kept secret in the canon of sacred Aryan works.