The vile and evil Jew has finally got his pieces of silver with regards patriotic freedom fighter Ernst Zundel. "Democratic" Canada hopes to send him back to Germany on Tuesday :mad:

Europa Thread (http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=15696)

OK let's get our German comrades up to speed !

This is the last place they want to send Ernst Zundel ......


Deutsche nationalisten kameraden can now turn many thousands onto the streets.

I for one, will support a demo in Germany and will be there ........

Our good friend DSMRD will keep us notified, being as he is fluent deutsche and a member of the swiss PNOS party. ;)

Our thoughts are with Ernst Zundel.

It is time to start thinking about the so called 'European Court of Human Rights'. If ever there was a case of someone being denied their basic human rights, it is the case of Ernst Zundel. I suggest that a Europe wide petition be set up, and as many Europeans as possible encouraged to sign it.

Lets see those useless wankers at Brussels talk their way out of that! :mad:

I post a note from Paul Fromm Director of Canadians for Free Expression CAFE (http://www.canadianfreespeech.com/homepage.html) on the plight of Ernst Zundel.

This has been a terrible week for those who believe in free speech in Canada. On Thursday, Mr. Justice Pierre Blais brought down his decision finding it reasonable for the government to believe -- that's not the same thning as finding the case to be true -- that Ernst Zundel is a threat to Canada's national security because he is an honoured senior stateman in the "White supremacist movement." It's clear that it's Ernst Zundel's ideas -- his skepticism about the 6-million claim, etc. -- and his skills as a publisher and communicator are what have so annoyed the Canadian government and the Jewish supremacists who so relentlessly lobby and back them.

Judge Blais was in blatant conflict of interest judging evidence provided by the Canadian Security and Intelligence Agency (CSIS), Canada's spooks as he was the former boss of CSIS. He three times refused to recuse himself.

Blais also accused Zundel of "destabilizing" the German government and, therefore, being a threat to their national security. In the mind of this bullet-headed state apparatchiik, any opposition to a government is a threat to national security.

I was talking to Mr. Zundel about half an hour ago. He called me from prison. He will be deported to Mannheim, Germany on Tuesday. Normally, the flight number is revealed to relatives. Not so for Mr. Zundel. Neither relatives, friends or his own lawyers will be allowed to see him off. "National security," you know.

Ernst wants me to let all his supporters around the world know that the fight will go on. He has not given up. There is an arrest warrant for him in Germany and he faces up to five years in a German jail for prublishing his views. [Didn't someone say we fought WW II to help bring 'democracy' to Germany?] The Canadian act in this free speech drama is over. His persecutors are merely changing stages for the next act in the farce.

He also wants to thank all in Canada, the U.S. and elsewhere who helped with their donations, their letters to the authorities and their many cards and messages to him.

"Danke schoen" -- Ernst.

It makes me puke the way our corrupt state has degraded the term "national security" to mean anyone who challenges their immigration nonsense or the historical take on WW II so dear to their supremacist backers.

It's been a tragic week for the Dominion Canada, which once had a legal system firmly rooted in Common Law and a British sense of fair play.

Zundel to be flown to Mannheim, Germany-Tuesday

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Original Message -----
From: Paul Fromm
To: Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 1:50 PM
Subject: Zundel Faces Deportation Tuesday: Statement from Ernst Zundel's Lawyers


Zundel Faces Deportation Tuesday: Statement from Ernst Zundel's Lawyers



Dear Free Speech Supporter:



This has been a terrible week for those who believe in free speech in Canada. On Thursday, Mr. Justice Pierre Blais brought down his decision finding it reasonable for the government to believe -- that's not the same thing as finding the case to be true -- that Ernst Zundel is a threat to Canada's national security because he is an honoured senior stateman in the "White supremacist movement." It's clear that it's Ernst Zundel's ideas -- his skepticism about the 6-million claim, etc. -- and his skills as a publisher and communicator are what have so annoyed the Canadian government and the Jewish supremacists who so relentlessly lobby and back them.

Judge Blais was in blatant conflict of interest judging evidence provided by the Canadian Security and Intelligence Agency (CSIS), Canada's spooks as he was the former boss of CSIS. He three times refused to recuse himself.

Blais also accused Zundel of "destabilizing" the German government and, therefore, being a threat to their national security. In the mind of this bullet-headed state apparatchiik, any opposition to a government is a threat to national security.

I was talking to Mr. Zundel this afternoon. He called me from prison. He will be deported to Mannheim, Germany on Tuesday. Normally, the flight number is revealed to relatives. Not so for Mr. Zundel. Neither relatives, friends or his own lawyers will be allowed to see him off. "National security," you know.

Ernst wants me to let all his supporters around the world know that the fight will go on. He has not given up. There is an arrest warrant for him in Germany and he faces up to five years in a German jail for publishing his views. [Didn't someone say we fought WW II to help bring 'democracy' to Germany?] The Canadian act in this free speech drama is over. His persecutors are merely changing stages for the next act in the farce.

He also wants to thank all in Canada, the U.S. and elsewhere who helped with their donations, their letters to the authorities and their many cards and messages to him.



Paul Fromm

Director

Canadian Association for Free _Expression





Statement from Ernst Zundel's Lawyers



This statement concerns the pending deportation of 65 year old Ernst Zundel, who lived in Canada from 1958 to 2000, who has no criminal record in Canada and who faces no criminal charges in Canada.



Mr. Zundel has been in solitary confinement for 2 years and is about to be deported after a largely secret proceeding against him. The Crown and the presiding judge met secretly throughout his case, in the absence of Mr. Zundel and his lawyers. The Crown repeatedly presented evidence and made arguments to the judge in a Star Chamber type proceeding.

At the public proceeding, Mr. Zundel was told literally hundreds of times, when he asked for specific evidence of the case against him, that there was “nothing in the unclassified materials” . He was repeatedly blocked from asking questions of witnesses on the basis of “national security”.



The presiding judge made repeated serious errors, forgot submissions and repeatedly misstated the appropriate legal test about what evidence should be kept secret. The same judge then evaluated the secret evidence.



Mr. Zundel complained of reasonable apprehension of bias by that judge. The same judge rejected Mr. Zundel’s argument and later ordered him deported.



The Federal Court of Appeal rejected his appeal regarding bias. It appears that the Crown will not wait to see whether the Supreme Court of Canada will hear the further appeal Mr. Zundel has already filed on the bias issue. The Crown will deport him NOW.



The Supreme Court of Canada has been asked, in Mr. Adil Charkaoui’s case, to consider the constitutionality of the law which allows secret evidence by which Mr. Zundel is deported. The Crown will not wait until the Supreme Court decides whether to hear that appeal. If the law is ultimately ruled to be unconstitutional, Mr. Zundel will likely hear about it from a German jail cell.



Probably no one cares because Mr. Ernst Zundel is notorious and reviled. The powerful and the popular do not need to rely on the fairness of our legal system. The marginalized and the reviled do. Our system has failed Mr. Zundel. We should care. But we fear most of us don’t give a damn.



Mr. Zundel will not initiate any further court proceedings in Canada. His repeated request that Canadian courts recognize his rights to basic fairness and justice have been unanswered. He will not beg for those rights.



Mr. Zundel has gone through the entire security certificate process, unfair though it was, to a conclusion. He has no right to appeal or to judicial review. He has gone to every available level of court in Canada.



For 42 years, he has vigorously defended his freedom of _expression within the Canadian justice system. All legal avenues have now been exhausted, as has his faith in the Canadian justice system and this security certificate system, which has been characterized by a Canadian journalist, after witnessing part of Mr. Zundel’s proceeding, as a “frightening charade of justice”.





______________________________ ____________________________

Peter Lindsay Chi-Kun Shi

Below is my own personal response to Paul Fromm, sent a few minutes ago. I may be wrong, after all I am by no means a mastermind or legal begal.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Paul..

Sorry to intrude, as you don't know me or of me.

I am Sid Williamson from Brighton England. National Branck Co-ordinator for the White Nationalist Party (WNP), and Regional Organiser for the Spearhead Group.

The reason I'm contacting you, is because I have been following the atrocious way in which Ernst Zundel has been treated over the last couple of years. It is not only disgusting, but surely in breach of his basic human rights. Now I'm no authority on legal matters, but I do know there is a difference between Canada and Europe. The difference as I see it is the European Court of Human Rights. Up to now the only purpose this organisation has served is to get terrorists released from prison. I have an idea that, given their history, they SHOULD be of use in the case of Ernst Zundel. I would therefore suggest that you look into the possibility of refering his case to the European Courts. I know there are many here, including myself who would be interested in this case. And in the event of them not being of use, a Europe wide petition would be a realistic move forward.

Please give consideration to my idea, and remember, that under the Mastricht Treaty, the European courts have presidence over the sovereign courts of Germany and all other European nations courts.

I hope this provides you with a useful option in your moral persuit of justice for a man who has done nothing wrong.

Yours For Race & Nation.

Sid Williamson.

TORONTO (AP) - Canadian authorities prepared to deport Holocaust denier Ernst Zundel back to his native Germany, and authorities there said Monday he faces arrest on charges of inciting racial hatred on his return.

Zundel, author of "The Hitler We Loved and Why," has been held in a Toronto jail for two years while authorities determined whether he posed a security risk to Canadian society.

MORE (http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/w-na/2005/feb/28/022802215.html)

Darkzone




Dabei seit: August 2003
Herkunft: Spandau
Beiträge: 736



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ernst Zündel wird am Dienstag, dem 1. März 2005 in der Justizvollzuganstalt Mannheim, Herzogenriedstr. 111, 68169 Mannheim, Tel. 0621 3980 App. 217, erwartet.


__________________
Words like violence Break the silence

I wonder how much money has been wasted on Zundles defence? This is the same thing as Matt Hale and Chester Doles. A White Nationalist will never receive a fair trial. I do think donating to such things is sadly a waste of time.

[QUOTE=BrightonWNP]Below is my own personal response to Paul Fromm, sent a few minutes ago. I may be wrong, after all I am by no means a mastermind or legal begal.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Paul..

Sorry to intrude, as you don't know me or of me.

I am Sid Williamson from Brighton England. National Branck Co-ordinator for the White Nationalist Party (WNP), and Regional Organiser for the Spearhead Group.

The reason I'm contacting you, is because I have been following the atrocious way in which Ernst Zundel has been treated over the last couple of years. It is not only disgusting, but surely in breach of his basic human rights. Now I'm no authority on legal matters, but I do know there is a difference between Canada and Europe. The difference as I see it is the European Court of Human Rights. Up to now the only purpose this organisation has served is to get terrorists released from prison. I have an idea that, given their history, they SHOULD be of use in the case of Ernst Zundel. I would therefore suggest that you look into the possibility of refering his case to the European Courts. I know there are many here, including myself who would be interested in this case. And in the event of them not being of use, a Europe wide petition would be a realistic move forward.

Please give consideration to my idea, and remember, that under the Mastricht Treaty, the European courts have presidence over the sovereign courts of Germany and all other European nations courts.

I hope this provides you with a useful option in your moral persuit of justice for a man who has done nothing wrong.

Yours For Race & Nation.

Sid Williamson.[/QUOTE]


I can confirm that I have had a reply from Paul Fromm.

He will be talking to Mr Zundel's German lawyers about the possibility of using the European Court of Human Rights. He also took the time to ask me about the WNP and the Spearhead Group. I have told him in my own words and provided links to our websites.

Also I have informed Mr Fromm that there are thousands of nationalists in the UK, and possibly hundreds of thousands Europe wide. That most of us are aware of Mr Zundel's plight, and to let him know we will not forget about him.

For Race & Nation.

Sid.

The point of revisionism is not to assuage your conscience. The Jews are much more upset about revisionism (than about lowbrow racism/antisemitism) because it shows them to be liars, and does so in a way that engages the minds of intelligent people. Revisionism doesn't turn people into racists but it does erode Jewish influence.

I disagree with Abyss on his point. Hadding made this comment on the other Zundel thread in Europa. It was Revisionism that brought the figure of 4 million "murdered" in Auschwitz down to just over 1 million. They even had to change the plaque to place the new lower number.

Revisionism is not a waste of time - It is WORKING !

It Was 4 Million - Now Itz 1 1/2 Million !

http://www.heretical.com/miscella/ausplaq1.gifhttp://www.heretical.com/miscella/ausplaq2.gif

DEUTSCHE WELLE

01.03.2005

[SIZE=3]Canada Deports Neo-Nazi to Germany [/SIZE]

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/image/0,1587,1503916_6,00.jpg
[SIZE=1]Zündel faces arrest upon his arrival in Germany[/SIZE]

Right-wing extremist Ernst Zündel is due to arrive in Germany on Tuesday. Canada, his adopted home for two-thirds of his life, is extraditing him to face a German court in his country of birth for denying the Holocaust.

After Ernst Zündel spent two years in a Toronto jail, a federal judge in Ottawa decided the 65-year-old should be extradited to Germany for presenting both a national and an international security risk. Zündel -- who the German authorities will immediately arrest upon his arrival on Tuesday, Canadian Press reported -- is notorious for denying the Holocaust and propagating neo-Nazi and anti-Semitic ideas.

"Mr. Zundel's activities are not only a threat to Canada's national security but also a threat to the international community of nations," Federal Court Justice Blais Richter said in his decision last week. He described Zündel as a Hitler sympathizer determined to propagate the neo-Nazi movement and a "leader of international significance" among white supremacists.


more... (http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1504545,00.html)

[QUOTE=Abyss]I wonder how much money has been wasted on Zundles defence? This is the same thing as Matt Hale and Chester Doles. A White Nationalist will never receive a fair trial. I do think donating to such things is sadly a waste of time.[/QUOTE]
I wonder how much money has been wasted on Revisionism period. People think I hate Revisionism, I don't. I despise some Revisionists (ie Mark Weber and Ingrid Rimland/Zundel, who to me looks like a Jewess or Gypo.), that's all. I think too much has been thrown into the Revisionist cause really, and a lot of what has been spent was spent foolishly. Take David Irving for example. He spent all that time and money suing Debby the Lip when he could have used that money to do something along the lines of what Dr.Pierce tried to do,set up an Alternative media source. But I'm just an unwashed,unreconstructed Confederate so what do I know?
Best Regards,
Robert

But I'm just an unwashed,unreconstructed Confederate so what do I know?

...But we won't hold it against you :D

Zgram:

Word has just reached me that Ernst Zundel was taken in a special,
chartered (?) plane to Germany, where he reportedly landed at 10
p.m., German time, in Frankfurt.

There, he will be arrested for "Holocaust Denial" allegedly found on
the Zundelsite - and taken to the Mannheim Prison.

So, once again, this is a "cyber war" involving an American website?
Blue Ribbons to the fore!

That is all the information I have for now.

I am relieved to know Ernst is in Germany. When I learned that he
had left Toronto in a "special plane," in a violent snow storm at
that, my heart just about stopped.

I will report as soon as I know more.

Ingrid Zundel

zgrams@zgrams.zundelsite.org

[QUOTE=RebelRob]I wonder how much money has been wasted on Revisionism period. People think I hate Revisionism, I don't. I despise some Revisionists (ie Mark Weber and Ingrid Rimland/Zundel, who to me looks like a Jewess or Gypo.), that's all. I think too much has been thrown into the Revisionist cause really, and a lot of what has been spent was spent foolishly. Take David Irving for example. He spent all that time and money suing Debby the Lip when he could have used that money to do something along the lines of what Dr.Pierce tried to do,set up an Alternative media source. But I'm just an unwashed,unreconstructed Confederate so what do I know?
Best Regards,
Robert[/QUOTE]

Jibberish like that opens you up widely for strong suspicions that you are a GD kike.

[QUOTE=White Dragon]...But we won't hold it against you :D[/QUOTE]
Good of you White Dragon, much obliged. It's funny in a way that I'd be the thread curmudgeon, after all a prized possession of mine is a copy of The Holocaust on Trial that was a gift from the late Robert Frenz.Cheers White Dragon ;) .
Best Regards,
Robert

[QUOTE=Rounder]Jibberish like that opens you up widely for strong suspicions that you are a GD kike.[/QUOTE]
Well Glenn you got me. The cat's out of the bag now. Now you need to go to work and counter the Secret World Gov't I and my comrade Morty Zuckerbaum run out of his kiddie porn basement. It's up to you to save the world Rounder !!!
Careful though as you'll be facing my fleet of Nazi UFOs that I got as a Holocaust reparation from the Evil Nazis. The Bastards gassed my Uncle Irving 666 times so he collects 667 survivor's checks.Be afraid, be very afraid.
Best Regards,
Robert :D :rolleyes:
PS. Pray tell what's gibberish ? I just think money can be spent in better ways than civil suits in VERY unfriendly courts as Irving did. Pray tell what good did Irving's suit do him or anyone else? Frankly that money could have been spent in better ways.

TORONTO (CP) - Infamous Holocaust denier Ernst Zundel ended more than four decades in Canada on Tuesday when he was escorted onto a plane to Germany to face prosecution for spreading hate.

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/cpress/20050301/thumb.n030145a.jpg

Branded by a Federal Court judge as a risk to national security, Zundel was taken before daybreak from the jail where he had been held in solitary confinement for two years.


"He has been turned over to German authorities," Alex Swann, spokesman for Public Safety Minister Anne McLellan, told The Canadian Press.


Jewish groups were ecstatic.

MORE (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/cpress/20050301/ca_pr_on_na/zundel_deportation)

[QUOTE=White Dragon]I disagree with Abyss on his point. Hadding made this comment on the other Zundel thread in Europa. It was Revisionism that brought the figure of 4 million "murdered" in Auschwitz down to just over 1 million. They even had to change the plaque to place the new lower number.

Revisionism is not a waste of time - It is WORKING !

It Was 4 Million - Now Itz 1 1/2 Million !

http://www.heretical.com/miscella/ausplaq1.gifhttp://www.heretical.com/miscella/ausplaq2.gif[/QUOTE]

Here's the main problem: the number was changed from 4 million to 1.5 million. The focus is still on something terrible happening to Jews, not us. You are still dealing with an enormous number -- 1.5 million. Even if it's as low as 400,000 altogether in Europe, for someone that has a moral problem with killing Jews, this is evil.

Personally, I think that it's infinitely more important to get people to just not care about Jews being killed. If we could get rid of the guilt complex, we wouldn't be worrying about a number that no one can hope to accurately gauge and our cause would be much easier to advance. You don't hear about the Japanese constantly crying about raping and killing the Chinese. We can develop the same attitude towards the Jews.

An enormous amount of money was spent on getting advertisements in papers for Zundel. Did this do anything? Absolutely nothing! The only thing that happened was that money was wasted that could have been better spent elsewhere, assuming that these people agree with us.

[QUOTE=TylerD]Here's the main problem: the number was changed from 4 million to 1.5 million. The focus is still on something terrible happening to Jews, not us. You are still dealing with an enormous number -- 1.5 million. Even if it's as low as 400,000 altogether in Europe, for someone that has a moral problem with killing Jews, this is evil. [/QUOTE]
The importance of the change in the alleged death-toll is not that it makes the atrocity smaller; the importance of it is that it makes the whole story less credible. A more important fact in this regard is that in 1945 every concentration camp was said to have been a deathcamp where people were gassed. This was the fact that made a revisionist of Dr. Robert Faurisson.

Every significant change that people see in the Holocaust story makes the story as a whole less credible. People were made into soap? Oops, no they weren't. Human-skin lampshades? Sorry again. If the average person simply knew how much the mainstream version of the story had changed he would realize that a lot of lying had been going on.

[QUOTE=TylerD]Personally, I think that it's infinitely more important to get people to just not care about Jews being killed. If we could get rid of the guilt complex, we wouldn't be worrying about a number that no one can hope to accurately gauge and our cause would be much easier to advance. You don't hear about the Japanese constantly crying about raping and killing the Chinese. We can develop the same attitude towards the Jews.

An enormous amount of money was spent on getting advertisements in papers for Zundel. Did this do anything? Absolutely nothing! The only thing that happened was that money was wasted that could have been better spent elsewhere, assuming that these people agree with us.[/QUOTE]
I understand the logic that regards establishing the facts about how the Germans actualy treated the Jews as an irrelevant effort. I understand that some people think that instead of taking apart the Jewish Holocaust myth we should learn to love it. "Six million more!" they would have us all say. I do not however think that it is realistic to expect many people to take this attitude. Most of our people are too civilized for that. They are not wildmen like TylerD, and and are not going to be able to follow his lead into the wilderness with bowie-knife in hand.

The Holocaust Myth colors civilized people's notions of what kinds of people the Jews are, and what kinds of people the Germans (and by extension all White people) are. The Holocaust Myth leads our people to suppose that the Jews are a more civilized and compassionate people than we are--a better people than we are, in terms of civilized values.

Between the two approaches--getting civilized people to change their values, or persuading them that some of the facts that they have accepted are wrong--I think that the latter is a much, much easier task. It is a way to change people's assessment of the Jews without having to attack the very idea of civilization. Indeed, as long as you argue this way, the forces of civility are on your side.

Revisionists state quite plainly that Jews did die, many thousands did die in the concentration camps, due to typus infection. This holohoax is played out now in near religious terms. We still await scientific proof of a workable 'gas chamber' that was used in either Germany or Poland to murder these "millions" of people. We can't walk away from it - we must fight it, every lie, every half truth.

The Zundel case ( and cases ) have been very useful in pointing out the lies and half truths of the "exterminationists". Again, we still await scientific proof of a workable 'gas chamber' being used to murder "millions" of Jews either in Germany or Poland.

The "six million" has been proven to be a lie. They once said 4 million died, now they say maybe just over 1 million. How low will it go ?

Revisionism doesn't turn people into racists but it does erode Jewish influence.

The quote above is the crux of this matter. The holohoax is used by the Jews in near religious terms to hold down any nation or people who wish 'self-determination'. The Jews and Israel can have all the self-determination they want, but us poor saps, us poor goys have no equal right of self-determination.

Jewish-Zionist power is manifest in all Aryan nations. It is a influence we must erode before our people can be free. If we fail to erode this influence the Aryan people are doomed.

The Jews and assorted shabbos goy politicans are nashing at the teeth to regulate the internet. Ernst Zundel has taken on the holohoax....now it appears he will be taking on free speech on the internet now.


A spokeswoman for the Justice Ministry said Monday that Mannheim prosecutors were able to open a case against Zundel because his Holocaust-denying Web site is available in Germany.

MORE (http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/w-na/2005/mar/01/030104969.html)

[QUOTE=TylerD]Here's the main problem: the number was changed from 4 million to 1.5 million. The focus is still on something terrible happening to Jews, not us. You are still dealing with an enormous number -- 1.5 million. Even if it's as low as 400,000 altogether in Europe, for someone that has a moral problem with killing Jews, this is evil.

Personally, I think that it's infinitely more important to get people to just not care about Jews being killed. If we could get rid of the guilt complex, we wouldn't be worrying about a number that no one can hope to accurately gauge and our cause would be much easier to advance. You don't hear about the Japanese constantly crying about raping and killing the Chinese. We can develop the same attitude towards the Jews.

An enormous amount of money was spent on getting advertisements in papers for Zundel. Did this do anything? Absolutely nothing! The only thing that happened was that money was wasted that could have been better spent elsewhere, assuming that these people agree with us.[/QUOTE]

I agree 100% my friend and well said as always.The Chinese killed a 100 million of their own and didn't bat an eyelash. Also look at what the Indonesians did to East Timor . Many people have this idea that our struggle will be won through "intellectualism" and "debate" . It won't be . It's all very simple, for the muds to live and expand we Whites must die. Simple as that. Forget Ernst Zundel, we should be reading Garret Hardin.
Best Regards,
Robert

[QUOTE=Hadding]The importance of the change in the alleged death-toll is not that it makes the atrocity smaller; the importance of it is that it makes the whole story less credible. A more important fact in this regard is that in 1945 every concentration camp was said to have been a deathcamp where people were gassed. This was the fact that made a revisionist of Dr. Robert Faurisson.

Every significant change that people see in the Holocaust story makes the story as a whole less credible. People were made into soap? Oops, no they weren't. Human-skin lampshades? Sorry again. If the average person simply knew how much the mainstream version of the story had changed he would realize that a lot of lying had been going on.[/QUOTE]

You fail to understand people's perspective, much like the NA failed to understand that a banner saying LOVE YOUR RACE wouldn't be effective at a car race. People would just applaud those that made the changes for making any necessary modifications. Most people realize that history is not a science. It's by its very nature inaccurate and subjective. Numbers will be inaccurate and some stories will turn out to be untrue. I don't think they'll instantly point the finger at Jews collectively -- they'll say that a couple weren't truthful and that's that.

Another problem that you have to face is that of descendents of American soldiers that were told about the large numbers of dead or malnourished Jews, while captured GIs were in pretty good health, living in fairly nice quarters. I'm sure that most of us were shown numerous pictures of this as well. They had their parents, grandparents, or great-grandparents telling them about this. This will be an easier obstacle to overcome in the future just because most of the men that fought are dying or will be dead soon. At this point, you're telling people that their Dad, Grandpa, or Great-Grandpa is lying.


[QUOTE=Hadding]I understand the logic that regards establishing the facts about how the Germans actualy treated the Jews as an irrelevant effort. I understand that some people think that instead of taking apart the Jewish Holocaust myth we should learn to love it. "Six million more!" they would have us all say. I do not however think that it is realistic to expect many people to take this attitude. Most of our people are too civilized for that. They are not wildmen like TylerD, and and are not going to be able to follow his lead into the wilderness with bowie-knife in hand.

The Holocaust Myth colors civilized people's notions of what kinds of people the Jews are, and what kinds of people the Germans (and by extension all White people) are. The Holocaust Myth leads our people to suppose that the Jews are a more civilized and compassionate people than we are--a better people than we are, in terms of civilized values.

Between the two approaches--getting civilized people to change their values, or persuading them that some of the facts that they have accepted are wrong--I think that the latter is a much, much easier task. It is a way to change people's assessment of the Jews without having to attack the very idea of civilization. Indeed, as long as you argue this way, the forces of civility are on your side.[/QUOTE]

You can persuade them that some of the facts that they've accepted are wrong without them fundamentally altering the way they look at the world. We absolutely need them to change the way they look at the world, not have a few statistics altered. I have little doubt that Jews would coopt and moderate (in their favor) whatever new position that revisionists take if it somehow gained in popularity at all. Also, "civilized" people have had no problem with killing in the past.

The basic facts won't change:

1. The National Socialists did not like Jews.
2. The National Socialists targeted Jews.
3. The National Socialists put Jews in camps.
4. The National Socialists did this because they held certain racial views.
5. National Socialist Germany confiscated Jews wealth and property.
6. Many Jews died in the camps that they were involuntarily sent to.

People in this country -- and you can't dispute this -- put a huge value on private property and color-blind individualism. It doesn't matter that many are hypocrites regarding the latter but it's still the case. Do you believe that they won't think that that Germany was stealing the Jews property? You're expecting that most 'civilized people' wouldn't blink about 1-6 just because Jews happened to lie or distort things?

There are plenty of opportunities to show how "bad" Israel (Jews) are towards their neighbors. That is a case of exposing how bad they are, rather than just trying to rehabilitate NS Germany's reputation. However, the very people that seem to be receptive to this believe that Whites (Jews) are oppressing the poor brown people (Palestinians). They're not people that even remotely agree with us. You might even find a handful that agree with what some revisionists say but without them changing their core values, they'll always remain our enemies. That is why it's infinitely more important to focus on that.

[QUOTE=TylerD]
Another problem that you have to face is that of descendents of American soldiers that were told about the large numbers of dead or malnourished Jews, while captured GIs were in pretty good health, living in fairly nice quarters. I'm sure that most of us were shown numerous pictures of this as well. They had their parents, grandparents, or great-grandparents telling them about this. This will be an easier obstacle to overcome in the future just because most of the men that fought are dying or will be dead soon. At this point, you're telling people that their Dad, Grandpa, or Great-Grandpa is lying. [/QUOTE]Not at all, as long as Grampa only claims to have seen what he actually saw. The real problem here is in arguing with people who are merely repeating what some grampa said. There is no arguing with the secondhand venders of such stories because they don't know. Give me Grampa any day.

The stories of extermination in camps "liberated" by US and British soldiers can be refuted with mainstream sources that say that there was no extermination program in those places.



[QUOTE=TylerD]
You can persuade them that some of the facts that they've accepted are wrong without them fundamentally altering the way they look at the world. We absolutely need them to change the way they look at the world, not have a few statistics altered. I have little doubt that Jews would coopt and moderate (in their favor) whatever new position that revisionists take if it somehow gained in popularity at all. Also, "civilized" people have had no problem with killing in the past.

The basic facts won't change:

1. The National Socialists did not like Jews.
2. The National Socialists targeted Jews.
3. The National Socialists put Jews in camps.
4. The National Socialists did this because they held certain racial views.
5. National Socialist Germany confiscated Jews wealth and property.
6. Many Jews died in the camps that they were involuntarily sent to.

People in this country -- and you can't dispute this -- put a huge value on private property and color-blind individualism. It doesn't matter that many are hypocrites regarding the latter but it's still the case. Do you believe that they won't think that that Germany was stealing the Jews property? You're expecting that most 'civilized people' wouldn't blink about 1-6 just because Jews happened to lie or distort things?

There are plenty of opportunities to show how "bad" Israel (Jews) are towards their neighbors. That is a case of exposing how bad they are, rather than just trying to rehabilitate NS Germany's reputation. However, the very people that seem to be receptive to this believe that Whites (Jews) are oppressing the poor brown people (Palestinians). They're not people that even remotely agree with us. You might even find a handful that agree with what some revisionists say but without them changing their core values, they'll always remain our enemies. That is why it's infinitely more important to focus on that.[/QUOTE]
All of those points 1-6 were done by the US and other Allied governments to enemy aliens, which is what the Jews were to Germany. What is "targeted"? You mean like the fictional version of Kommandant Goeth in Schindler's List, taking potshots off his balcony? That is a very unclear word.

It is quite true that "civilized people have had no problem with killing in the past" but they need to feel that it is justified and necessary for uphlding civilization. Otherwise they will feel that they are doing something wrong. This is why it is necessary to show that Jews are not innocent, and that insight comes with revisionism.

I anticipated that you would say something to the effect that our people are too civilized and need to become a little less so. I believe that revisionsim shows among other things a major weakness of our civilization as it is, how easily the people and society as a whole are misled. There is apt to be some change in social views with this insight.

Any focus on Jewish misdeeds is going to be offset by the Holohoax counter-accusation as long as that myth is allowed to endure.

Above all revisionism is about truth, which is often the only weapon that we have. I can't see why anyone would want to throw that moral highground away. Moral claims do matter to our people; if they didn't (if everyone were like TylerD) the Holohoax would have been useless for the Jews as propaganda. Incidentally this is also why Chinese and Blacks are not much affected by it.

Er ist in der Einsamkeit, in der Dunkelheit und der Kälte seiner Gefängniszelle nicht allein. Mit ihm sitzt die Freiheit hinter Gittern.

Und wir werden da sein, wo die Freiheit ist!

Christian Worch

Mit den besten Grüssen an Christian Worch

[QUOTE=heaven above]Er ist in der Einsamkeit, in der Dunkelheit und der Kälte seiner Gefängniszelle nicht allein. Mit ihm sitzt die Freiheit hinter Gittern.

Und wir werden da sein, wo die Freiheit ist!

Christian Worch

Mit den besten Grüssen an Christian Worch[/QUOTE]


You mean -


It is not in the isolation, in the darkness and the cold weather of its prison cell alone. With it the liberty behind lattices sits. And we will be, where the liberty is! Christian Worch With the best greetings at Christian Worch

Wednesday, March 2, 2005 Updated at 8:24 AM EST

Associated Press

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Frankfurt — A German judge ordered white supremacist Ernst Zundel held in jail after arraigning him Wednesday on charges of denying the Holocaust and inciting hatred.

Mr. Zundel, who was deported from Canada on Tuesday, made no statement at the closed arraignment in the southwestern city of Mannheim, court spokesman Ulrich Krehbiel said.

German prosecutors accuse Mr. Zundel of decades of anti-Semitic activities, including repeated denials of the Holocaust – a crime in Germany.

Prosecutors obtained an arrest warrant for him in 2003. Because Mr. Zundel's Holocaust-denying Web site is available in Germany, he is considered to be spreading his message to Germans.

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Canadian authorities deported Mr. Zundel, 65, after a federal judge ruled that his activities were a threat to national and international security.

Born in Germany in 1939, he emigrated to Canada in 1958 and lived in Toronto and Montreal until 2001. Canadian officials rejected his attempts to obtain citizenship in 1966 and 1994. He moved to Pigeon Forge, Tenn., until he was deported to Canada in 2003 for immigration violations.

Mr. Zundel has operated Samisdat Publishing, a leading distributor of Nazi propaganda, since the 1970s. Over the past decade, he has been a key content provider for a Web site dedicated to Holocaust denial.

Canadian authorities had held him in solitary confinement since 2003 while determining whether they had grounds to deport him.

Mr. Zundel has claimed he is a peaceful man with no criminal record against him in Canada.

Rabbi Abraham Cooper, associate dean at the Simon Wiesenthal Center, a Los Angeles-based Jewish human-rights group, said Tuesday that Mr. Zundel's likely trial would help to educate younger generations in Europe who are increasingly unaware of the horrors of the Holocaust.

“Let's give him another 15 minutes of fame, if the trial can expose how Holocaust denial comes about,” Mr. Cooper said. “To cast the light of history and truth, and to be done so in a German court, is very important.”

The attached picture is of Ernst Zundel this morning,Wednesday,2nd.March 2005, in a police van in Mannheim, Germany. I think Zundels days of solitary are over :)
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050302.wzund0302/BNStory/International/

Zundel deportation to Germany goes World wide !

Here is a link from the BBC. There are also links from there to the USA, Reuters and the main Chinese newsagency.





http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4310087.stm

Got this from the RENSE site;


Do you realize that Paul(Fromm) was emailed that Ernst had arrived in Germany when he had arrived. The marvel of that is that we didn't know exactly when he had left on exactly what mode of transportation until half a day later.

THE PEOPLE ON SIDE IN GERMANY KNEW NEARLY THE MOMENT WHEN HE
ARRIVED! They are watching out for him.

dianekay@consolidated.net




http://www.rense.com/general63/eleter.htm



We have good comrades in Germany and they will not let Zundel rot in jail. After all, he is one of them !

[QUOTE=DSMRD]DEUTSCHE WELLE

01.03.2005

[SIZE=3]Canada Deports Neo-Nazi to Germany [/SIZE]

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/image/0,1587,1503916_6,00.jpg
[SIZE=1]Zündel faces arrest upon his arrival in Germany[/SIZE]
This is actually a file photo from 2003. The use of this photo creates the impression that EZ was greatly disturbed and showed it when he learned that he was to be deported. The misleading impression is aided by the fact that the photo is cropped so that you cannot see EZ's hand-gestures, which make it clear that he is asserting a point in an argument, not responding passively with shock to something that somebody said.