Ugh! My daughter is not quite 9 years old and she is hyper emotional, talks back constantly to me and can't get it through her thick selfish head that I am her mother and she can't act this way. She obeys her father when he is around but I have little to no control over her. I know I wouldn't dare get away with her behavior when I was her age. Believe me I have tried both ends, trying to be nice and communicate with her and then just putting my foot down and saying no. I am at the point to give up and let her be and let her dad deal with her. My son is not like this at all and actually stops what he is doing when he is told to stop and doesn't throw fits. I don't know if a)it's how she was brought up b) she is a girl and independently acting this way because of her genes c) being my first child angry with me from having another child.


I know there are some wise and mature parents here and I will take any advice - even if you want to PM that's fine.

Thanks

I can interpret that her father is seldom there.
If that wasn't the case, your daughter might calm down

Threaten to hang her upside down by her feet and cover her head with a bag of vicious, starving rats.

Barring that, lock her in a shed and feed her only oatmeal and water. Gag her so the neighbors won't hear her screams.

If that doesn't work, beat her with a leather belt until her back bleeds.

Seriously though, you are going to have to get loud and aggressive until the little bitch-in-training learns that you are the boss. And keep her away from the TV or limit her to a couple of hours of approved material-preferably a rented movie or some healthy kids' stuff. And make sure her teachers at the public schmuel aren't brainwashing her with ZOG filth.

And get a man around the place to give her a sense of masculine discipline. These single female parent kids are destined to be a generation of basket cases.

Ugh! My daughter is not quite 9 years old and she is hyper emotional, talks back constantly to me and can't get it through her thick selfish head that I am her mother and she can't act this way. She obeys her father when he is around but I have little to no control over her. I know I wouldn't dare get away with her behavior when I was her age. Believe me I have tried both ends, trying to be nice and communicate with her and then just putting my foot down and saying no. I am at the point to give up and let her be and let her dad deal with her. My son is not like this at all and actually stops what he is doing when he is told to stop and doesn't throw fits. I don't know if a)it's how she was brought up b) she is a girl and independently acting this way because of her genes c) being my first child angry with me from having another child.


I know there are some wise and mature parents here and I will take any advice - even if you want to PM that's fine.

Thanks
Well, in the first place being very emotional is not a disciplinary problem. If she is disobedient, that is a concern.

You seem to expect obedience automatically because you are the mother, but it doesn't work that way. There is a science to discipline. As Jethro implied, the father is the ultimate disciplinarian (the one whose wrath the child will fear) and you are in effect your husband's representative. He must support your decisions for them to be effective. Does your husband back you up every time or does he cave in and revoke your decisions under pleading from the girl?

Assuming that your husband is supporting your disciplinary efforts, the only way it can be true that you have little to no control over daughter is, if you are not using the power that you do have in a logical manner. What punishments and incentives do you use? Do you adhere to the conditions of these punishments and incentives consistently and award them consistently when those conditions are met?

...As Jethro implied, the father is the ultimate disciplinarian (the one whose wrath the child will fear) ...Jethro didn't imply using the instillment of fear. He implied that the child was probably reacting to an unnatural situation. That being one parent was absent from the otherwise normal both parent household. Jethro does not approve of violence or any other scare tactic to remedy an undesireable circumstance between parents and children.
We Whites no longer live in the Stone Age and should bear our responsibilities accordingly :mad:

1 Believe me I have tried both ends, trying to be nice and communicate with her and then just putting my foot down and saying no.
2 I don't know if a)it's how she was brought up b) she is a girl and independently acting this way because of her genes c) being my first child angry with me from having another child.


I know there are some wise and mature parents here and I will take any advice - even if you want to PM that's fine.

Thanks
As to the first, being nice and stern alternately may be confusing to her. Try to make note of the particular situations in which you are nice and those in which you are stern. Given any certain scenario that calls for discipline, if you are nice on one occasion and stern on another, she may notice that you are inconsistent when you do not notice it. She may be reacting to that instability. Also, you may want to get together with your husband and try to establish a consistent pattern of interaction with your daughter, regarding both rewards and punishments (i.e., however she behaves, whether she is around father or mother or both, she gets the identical treatment). You and your husband try to match responding behavior so your daughter always knows what will happen. Tough things to do, though.

As to the second,(a) it may have something to do with the way she was brought up. You and your husband may have unconsciously led her to behave that way, as I alluded to above. Also, she may have picked up that behavior from watching some other children.

(b)It may be partly genetic, but that would be difficult to decipher because behavioral genetics is a very subtle thing to study.

(c)Hard to say whether the other child's existence has anything to do with it. I'd not worry about that too much. Focusing on that may lead to the other child's feelings getting badly hurt one day, although unintentionally.

Good luck, though. Hopefully someone else will give you some better advice than mine.

I can interpret that her father is seldom there.
If that wasn't the case, your daughter might calm down

Yes, he does work a lot and does travel. I don't blame him for not being here because of work, it does seem when he is here he seems too tired for the kids but he does spend time with them. He has a lot of his shoulders.

Threaten to hang her upside down by her feet and cover her head with a bag of vicious, starving rats.

Barring that, lock her in a shed and feed her only oatmeal and water. Gag her so the neighbors won't hear her screams.

If that doesn't work, beat her with a leather belt until her back bleeds.


As a parent I think we have all had those type of thoughts. Actually she loves oatmeal and eats it almost every morning.

Seriously though, you are going to have to get loud and aggressive until the little bitch-in-training learns that you are the boss. And keep her away from the TV or limit her to a couple of hours of approved material-preferably a rented movie or some healthy kids' stuff. And make sure her teachers at the public schmuel aren't brainwashing her with ZOG filth.

And get a man around the place to give her a sense of masculine discipline. These single female parent kids are destined to be a generation of basket cases.

Yes, this is obvious. I don't want to say that I am loud or aggressive because I don't want that interrerpted that I beat her or anything like that, but I been known to get "loud" but I feel she senses that I am losing my control and she seems to take advantange of this. She knows me and knows my limits and she knows exactly what buttons to push. She is tough.

I do have a man, he just works a lot and seems I have the burden of raising the kids, and if you couldn't tell already, I'm the only parent that is racist. Regarding TV, I don't let the kids watch it unless I put in a movie of my choice. But I do admit turning it on some days when I need break - but not more than an hour.
Also some of her friends come from these single female parent homes, and I understand from a first hand persepective that these girls are going to grow up in with a disadvantage - I'm worried about them, I think the worst - they may grow up to be race mixers. And I have limit her time with them, but the her bad attitude did not start when she started playing with them. She has always been rebellious since she was little and something along the way (prehaps confusion) just keeps reinforcing the fact she feels that she act this way to me.

I would like to answer all the posts but I do need to take her somewhere.

I do appriecate the input. :)

Yes, he does work a lot and does travel...That's unfortunate that irresponsible capitalism holds families hostage against their existance.
Now, we know where the initial problem lies. As in tuning up a car, families need tune ups, also. for a motor vehicle to run right, you have to bring it to at least its original condition. Once you get your family to a point where the father is present at a reasonable amount of time, things should get better. Daughters are closer to their fathers, as sons are to their mothers

Jethro didn't imply using the instillment of fear. He implied that the child was probably reacting to an unnatural situation. That being one parent was absent from the otherwise normal both parent household. Jethro does not approve of violence or any other scare tactic to remedy an undesireable circumstance between parents and children.
We Whites no longer live in the Stone Age and should bear our responsibilities accordingly :mad:
All child-discipline is at bottom based on fear of punishment. In the beginning it has to be corporal punishment because this is all that can make an impression and be understood by a small child. There should be a gradual substitution of noncorporal punishments, but at bottom it is all rooted in fear--fear of pain, fear of being deprived of something, etc. Fear is synonymous with respect. I am not talking about the kind of fear that you would have of someone who is unpredictable and dangerous. Discipline is a systematic use of fear in such a way that it is clearly understood how the feared consequence is to be avoided, and the habit of avoiding the feared consequence is cultivated. As the proper behavior is embraced the fear of punishment becomes abhorrence of disobedience.

Implicit in Jethro's idea that the general absence of the father is "an unnatural situation" that leads to a breakdown in discipline, is the assumption that the father is the principal figure in discipline, or at least more suited to that role than the mother, and I agree with that. We may no longer live in the Stone Age but humans really haven't changed very much.

I do have a man, he just works a lot and seems I have the burden of raising the kids, and if you couldn't tell already, I'm the only parent that is racist. Regarding TV, I don't let the kids watch it unless I put in a movie of my choice.... Also some of her friends come from these single female parent homes, and I understand from a first hand persepective that these girls are going to grow up with a disadvantage - I'm worried about them, I think the worst - they may grow up to be race mixers. And I have limit her time with them, but the her bad attitude did not start when she started playing with them. She has always been rebellious since she was little and something along the way (prehaps confusion) just keeps reinforcing the fact she feels that she act this way to me.

I would like to answer all the posts but I do need to take her somewhere.

I do appriecate the input. :)
It is apparent that, in addition to his absence, your husband is less particular than you are about how the children turn out, which may leave you without much support for some of your policies. If Dad doesn't support your policies then they may be viewed by the girl as lacking authority. You need to get Dad to support what you are doing unequivocally.

You also mention that you get upset and lose control and the girl enjoys a feeling of power because of this. Obviously this is something that you need to change. Maybe calling Dad at work in those moments would take the stress off you.

Well, in the first place being very emotional is not a disciplinary problem. If she is disobedient, that is a concern.

True. She expresses her objections with lots of screaming and crying, sometimes she is just crying uncontrollably.


You seem to expect obedience automatically because you are the mother, but it doesn't work that way. There is a science to discipline. As Jethro implied, the father is the ultimate disciplinarian (the one whose wrath the child will fear) and you are in effect your husband's representative. He must support your decisions for them to be effective.

Haven't look at it that way before. He is the head of the house, and yes, I fall behind him the pack order. To our children we are seen as equal but the Father is the stronger one. My husband and I have discussed and do back each other. If he says "NO" I don't turn around and say "YES" and so it goes, we will let each other know if a child is trying to pull on over on us and yes they have tried - esp my daughter - and she will get in trouble.

Does your husband back you up every time or does he cave in and revoke your decisions under pleading from the girl?
He does not cave in and she knows better to pull that with him. He is a strong man or else I wouldn't still be married to him my only complaint is that he is not racist and I wrestle with this because I wasn't racist before I became married and he has seen me change a lot in our marriage, he knows how I feel and what I think and he respects it to a degree. He isn't all "I love diversity" either. So I can't leave him because of that, it's not fair to him or our children nor to me because I do love him.

Assuming that your husband is supporting your disciplinary efforts, the only way it can be true that you have little to no control over daughter is, if you are not using the power that you do have in a logical manner. What punishments and incentives do you use?

punishments = grounding which means no friends, maybe no activites (if they are planned for the day), cleaning room.

incentives = lots of praise "proud of you for behaving the way you did" , "I like it when we can talk like this". Sitting with her and doing something together with her - like a craft - which I admit I have been slack because I have been feeling tired and sick with this pregnancy and haven't felt like doing much.

Do you adhere to the conditions of these punishments and incentives consistently and award them consistently when those conditions are met?

I would say typically yes. I don't wavier from one extreme to the next frequently. I would consider myself consistent, but not perfectly consistent.

As to the first, being nice and stern alternately may be confusing to her. Try to make note of the particular situations in which you are nice and those in which you are stern. Given any certain scenario that calls for discipline, if you are nice on one occasion and stern on another, she may notice that you are inconsistent when you do not notice it. She may be reacting to that instability. Also, you may want to get together with your husband and try to establish a consistent pattern of interaction with your daughter, regarding both rewards and punishments (i.e., however she behaves, whether she is around father or mother or both, she gets the identical treatment). You and your husband try to match responding behavior so your daughter always knows what will happen. Tough things to do, though.

Generally speaking, that does happen, sometimes my husband will just send her to her room - almost his way of not dealing with, which isn't punishment because she will be busy with her art and writing.

As to the second,(a) it may have something to do with the way she was brought up. You and your husband may have unconsciously led her to behave that way, as I alluded to above. Also, she may have picked up that behavior from watching some other children.

(b)It may be partly genetic, but that would be difficult to decipher because behavioral genetics is a very subtle thing to study.

(c)Hard to say whether the other child's existence has anything to do with it. I'd not worry about that too much. Focusing on that may lead to the other child's feelings getting badly hurt one day, although unintentionally.

Good luck, though. Hopefully someone else will give you some better advice than mine.


I appreicate your advice. It is tough to be a parent and a White parent in a divershity world. We do talk and she understands my concerns for her and that other people aren't all the same and White people stick with White people and marry other White people and blacks and mexicans are to be avoided, she also has picked up these type of conversations are between her and I only. I wonder if this has led to some type of insecurity because Dad doesn't talk about what Mom talks about. She perceives that this is a sore subject for her Dad and Mom and doesn't understand why. Mom is right, of course, why is it a problem for Dad (she wonders). My own mother applauds me telling her to only marry White....thinks if I tell her too much she may rebel against me and do the opposite. I can't win!!! anyway....I know this subject has turned a little but I suppose its on my mind and been bothering me for sometime.

True. She expresses her objections with lots of screaming and crying, sometimes she is just crying uncontrollably.

This seems to be your only complaint, and as long as she does what is required of her anyway, it isn't really a disciplinary problem.

If the crying and screaming is a tactic to get what she wants then you should just learn to ignore it.

Do you think that her screaming and crying is purely manipulative or does she show signs of being troubled, such as declining performance in school?

This seems to be your only complaint, and as long as she does what is required of her anyway, it isn't really a disciplinary problem.

If the crying and screaming is a tactic to get what she wants then you should just learn to ignore it.

Do you think that her screaming and crying is purely manipulative or does she show signs of being troubled, such as declining performance in school?

I say purely manipulative....she does well with her work, she is very bright and can read chapter books and create beautiful drawings and she picks up new things quite easily but she does seem to "act" emotionally younger than she is. I know some of her friends seem mature and can relate to things on a different, higher level, but my daughter seems so immature at times - I'm sure I have been accused of sheltering my daughter by the zoglings around here but I don't know if it neccessary has to do with that.

I also been thinking about this and it helps to go back and forth with you all on this forum about this topic - even if it is a personal - I wonder if it I have interrupted her relationship with her father somehow. Prehaps with my racist views she has a "disrespect" for her father because he doesn't agree with mom about jews, blacks, other non-white entities.....my pride can get in the way, it's hard to admit as a mother/wife that I may be doing something wrong. Maybe I somehow made my daughter think poorly of her father and has affected her relationship with him compound with his absence around the house -- she may just be taking her frustations out on me. Oh it's complicated!

I found her a girls sewing machine at a garage sale and she is looking forward to see if it will work. I have gone through 2 different "kids" sewing machines for her - the first one didn't work and the 2nd one her friend's little sister broke - I was so pissed and gave that girl a lecture about touching stuff in my house, those girls think I am the meanest mom....because I am ;)

All child-discipline is at bottom based on fear of punishment. In the beginning it has to be corporal punishment because this is all that can make an impression and be understood by a small child. There should be a gradual substitution of noncorporal punishments, but at bottom it is all rooted in fear--fear of pain, fear of being deprived of something, etc.
Your second sentence is not true. You are making too much of a generalization. There are indeed many small children who will only be impressed by corporal punishment, but some who do not ever need it. There are a few examples in my family. One was spanked once when she was 4 for walking off my g-mother's property. She to this day believes that it was not necessary, and she is probably correct, given who she is. The other, her sister, never was hit in any way. Both were never trouble makers, so much, and were excellent students and are now very successful in their careers. I have met a few guys who have the same life experience. It all depends upon the temperament of the child, as well as the type of punishment used. As long as the non-corporal punishment is effective and is used consistently, corporal punishment may never be necessary. Small children differ in many qualities; some are noticeably more reasonable than others. Those who seem reasonable enough to where corporal punishment is not warrented will probably never need it.

I can honestly say, without being the least bit acerbic, that this is the most engaging thread I've read in weeks.

Toni,

What's in her diet? Is she getting a lot of sugary, processed foods at school or at home? You may have to pack her a lunch instead of letting her buy school lunch. also, are there vending machines at her school.

We have the same problem with our 7 year old daughter. I'm a real bastard in the discipline department. She is unable to manipulate me, though she tries. She screams, "I hate you," and I just laugh and say, "That's your choice. I love you no matter what, but you can hate me if you want." If she's really bad, I'll say, "Go to your room, I don't want to listen to this crap." and I'll carry her to her room and lock her in.

She can manipulate my wife, but not me. After another failed attempt to manipulate me, she'll do a 180 and beg forgiveness, completely of her own volition. I forgive her, of course.

I too am not around as much as I'd like. I leave when the family is sleeping, I get home in the dark. My daughter appreciates little kindnesses from me, like when I make her Ramen noodles (a forbidden treat, the wife considers them poison)

Our daughter gets hot lunch once a week, and rents a movie on Friday night -- if she's good, and if she does her minimal chores. Lately her chores have been picking tomatoes and helping me plant garlic. If she does over her minimal chores, I pay her 4 dollars an hour.

When we do stuff together like plant garlic, she asks me very difficult questions, like, "Where did the world come from." We are atheists, but she has a Christian girl on her bus who told her God created the world. I said, "if that's so, who created God? How could God 'always be there?'" She really racked her brain over that one. She also asked how the money system worked, and I explained the federal reserve to her. She dropped her garlic bulbs, ran inside and got a notebook and pen and drew a graph of the Federal Reserve machinations for me. Her conclusion was that buying junk at Walmart and Kohls just gave the jews too much power, and took it away from us. I told her it's understandable to want to buy things, but always to remembre who's getting your money when you do.

One last thing to try, Toni. We take our daughter on five mile walks almost every night. If she refuses to go, we take away her hot lunch and movie, so she goes. I think this burns off excess bratty energy. Also, some people might think we are setting her up for eating disorders, but we have made her weight conscious and pressure her to go on 5 mile walks "or you'll be fat like the girl next door." She eats healthy and goes to gymnastics too, but she is also aware of the whole fat thing (how could she not, it's all around us) and we teach her to deal with it by going on five mile walks and doing gymnastics (as opposed to starving and puking).

I think it's better to explain this stuff to the kid long before she has to deal with it. Our kid is being mentally prepared for all or most of the ugliness and pitfalls of what's ahead of her in the teen years -- obesity, race mixing, consumerism. On the one hand, we keep her on a tight leash; on the other hand, we don't shelter her from knowledge of the world.

Rob

Kievsky-
Great post! It sounds like you're doing an excellent job as a dad. There is only one thing I'm going to call into question, which is your headline about sugar. Limiting refined sugar intake is a very important thing to do for a variety of reasons, but the belief that it has a causal relationship to hyperactivity is largely dismissed by the medical profession, I'm pretty sure.

I remember back in the '70's, I guess I was about 5 or 6, my mom suddenly went crazy because she started hearing all these things on tv about inattention and behavioral problems linked to sugary diets. I had been diagnosed with ADD not long before that and when the diagnosis started to make the psych field rounds in its early days. All of a sudden it was absolutely NO SUGAR CEREAL or anything else sugar laden before school or when I got home to study. My attention span didn't get any better, and of course my mom did not notice this and continued the ban. During that time I was prescribed Ritalin (a wee bit more of a stimulant than a bowl of Cocoa Puffs, I believe)! Strictly for attention span, I wonder if some sugar doesn't actually help. Drinking a glass of orange juice before taking standardized tests is often suggested.

A few years ago, as I was sitting in my doctor's waiting room, I picked up a medical journal (I don't recall which offhand - JAMA, it seems) and read an article about new medical research which discredits the old research on this topic. I asked my doctor if he knew about it, and he said that he never believed it and told his patients it was flawed after he read the original research. I have heard this quite a few times since then. I think the controversy is about dead at this point.

So if anyone wants to decrease sugar in their own or child's diet, it's a good thing, but it should be done for the right reasons.

Toni,

What's in her diet? Is she getting a lot of sugary, processed foods at school or at home? You may have to pack her a lunch instead of letting her buy school lunch. also, are there vending machines at her school.



Thank you Kievsky for your long and thought out reply. Just knowing that you tend to go through the same thing with your daughter gives me comfort that I am not alone.

About sugar, I am conscientious about food. My main "beef" is carbs. White flour that breaks down into simple sugar is bad. Real food like milk, cheese, beef is good. She actually had some digestive problems with slow bowel movements that is quite common in children, so I have been told. She eats oatmeal with honey, cinnamon in the mornings, sometimes I make them french toast or have some toaster sturdel available. Yes she does go to school (although homeschooling her would be my preference) and she does eat school lunches. If I do pack her a cold lunch it is a peanut butter sandwich, with fruit or pudding cup. We are on a limited budget and healthy foods like veggies and fruits are expensive and it seems that esp at the end of the month, the hot lunches come in handy. No vending machines there. The fare is pretty standard meat, bread, fruit or veggie, milk.

We have the same problem with our 7 year old daughter. I'm a real bastard in the discipline department. She is unable to manipulate me, though she tries. She screams, "I hate you," and I just laugh and say, "That's your choice. I love you no matter what, but you can hate me if you want." If she's really bad, I'll say, "Go to your room, I don't want to listen to this crap." and I'll carry her to her room and lock her in.

My daughter wouldn't pull that with my husband but she sures does to me...I have heard "You hate me" many times...I tell her that's not true and she knows it. When she does calm down she does apologize or acknowledge she was wrong.

She can manipulate my wife, but not me. After another failed attempt to manipulate me, she'll do a 180 and beg forgiveness, completely of her own volition. I forgive her, of course.
Yes, I believe this is all part of the act with my daughter, but what can you do? You can't still be mad at her.

I too am not around as much as I'd like. I leave when the family is sleeping, I get home in the dark. My daughter appreciates little kindnesses from me, like when I make her Ramen noodles (a forbidden treat, the wife considers them poison) I know you have a tough schedule. I know my husband thinks he needs to spend time with the homested. I sometimes find out that my husband will do that with my daughter - buy her chocolate bars or let her do something I wouldn't say yes to in the first place. Not often (that I am aware of because he is hardly home) I think this is his way for treating his guilt and/or he thinks I'm "too rough" on our daughter.

Our daughter gets hot lunch once a week, and rents a movie on Friday night -- if she's good, and if she does her minimal chores. Lately her chores have been picking tomatoes and helping me plant garlic. If she does over her minimal chores, I pay her 4 dollars an hour.

That's great! The garden was a good place for my daughter this summer, although she found her friends to be more interesting after awhile. (Lots of kids running around this neighborhood).

When we do stuff together like plant garlic, she asks me very difficult questions, like, "Where did the world come from." We are atheists, but she has a Christian girl on her bus who told her God created the world. I said, "if that's so, who created God? How could God 'always be there?'" She really racked her brain over that one. She also asked how the money system worked, and I explained the federal reserve to her. She dropped her garlic bulbs, ran inside and got a notebook and pen and drew a graph of the Federal Reserve machinations for me. Her conclusion was that buying junk at Walmart and Kohls just gave the jews too much power, and took it away from us. I told her it's understandable to want to buy things, but always to remembre who's getting your money when you do.

One last thing to try, Toni. We take our daughter on five mile walks almost every night. If she refuses to go, we take away her hot lunch and movie, so she goes. I think this burns off excess bratty energy. Also, some people might think we are setting her up for eating disorders, but we have made her weight conscious and pressure her to go on 5 mile walks "or you'll be fat like the girl next door." She eats healthy and goes to gymnastics too, but she is also aware of the whole fat thing (how could she not, it's all around us) and we teach her to deal with it by going on five mile walks and doing gymnastics (as opposed to starving and puking).

I think it's better to explain this stuff to the kid long before she has to deal with it. Our kid is being mentally prepared for all or most of the ugliness and pitfalls of what's ahead of her in the teen years -- obesity, race mixing, consumerism. On the one hand, we keep her on a tight leash; on the other hand, we don't shelter her from knowledge of the world.

Rob


Thank you for the sound advice. She was in gymnastics but now she does ice-skating, not quite so physical but we can't afford both activites. Her father does a great job talking to her about financial matters, she understands saving and money. Actually it is a running joke in our house that my husband secertly makes my daughter tag along with me to the store so I don't spend so much. She is frugel. I make her buy her own things she wants with her own money - even at garage sales. We buy extras at birthdays and christmas but even with that we don't go in debt doing it.

I probarbly need to address the obesity topic, if not directly. She is not fat, she is petite but she does love desserts and chocolate. I think focusing on the exercise aspect and going on long walks will help in the long run.

Gosh, I can sit here and type for an hour about her and about teaching religion and jews to our children but alas, I need to get off my ass and do something around this house.

Thanks again

I say purely manipulative.... -- she may just be taking her frustations out on me. Oh it's complicated!

Since she is not particularly troubled, the best thing is to practice ignoring her outbursts.

Your second sentence is not true. You are making too much of a generalization. There are indeed many small children who will only be impressed by corporal punishment, but some who do not ever need it. There are a few examples in my family. One was spanked once when she was 4 for walking off my g-mother's property. She to this day believes that it was not necessary, and she is probably correct, given who she is. The other, her sister, never was hit in any way. Both were never trouble makers, so much, and were excellent students and are now very successful in their careers. I have met a few guys who have the same life experience. It all depends upon the temperament of the child, as well as the type of punishment used. As long as the non-corporal punishment is effective and is used consistently, corporal punishment may never be necessary. Small children differ in many qualities; some are noticeably more reasonable than others. Those who seem reasonable enough to where corporal punishment is not warrented will probably never need it.

The only way that I can make sense of the claim that the four-year old girl hadn't needed the spanking is if her disobedience had been rooted in poor communication, and therefore deserved no punishment.

I am sure that there are differences in the amount and severity of corporal punishment required by different children, but I am skeptical that it is a disciplinary method that should be foregone completely. A brief physical pain has the advantage over psychological punishments that it is executed quickly so that the reason for it is more likely to be apparent to an immature mind.

One of the common arguments against corporal punishment is that it allegedly causes the children to become more likely to engage in violence as adults, but this raises the question of whether children forced to endure timeouts develop manipulative, passive-aggressive tendencies. I can't really see that as preferable.

The only way that I can make sense of the claim that the four-year old girl hadn't needed the spanking is if her disobedience had been rooted in poor communication, and therefore deserved no punishment.
My grandmother just wasn't watching her closely enough.

I am sure that there are differences in the amount and severity of corporal punishment required by different children, but I am skeptical that it is a disciplinary method that should be foregone completely. A brief physical pain has the advantage over psychological punishments that it is executed quickly so that the reason for it is more likely to be apparent to an immature mind.
Sure, there are times when it is useful, even necessary.

One of the common arguments against corporal punishment is that it allegedly causes the children to become more likely to engage in violence as adults, but this raises the question of whether children forced to endure timeouts develop manipulative, passive-aggressive tendencies. I can't really see that as preferable.
I'd rather someone not fold my socks right than beat me over the head with a tire iron.

wow, lots of good advice and thanks toni for a good discussion topic, even if it pains you.

here are my simple rules for parental disciple

1. mom and dad = united front. Means, no hollering at each other in front of kids; no undermining the other parent's decisions. Consult when possible, and when not possible, support the other parent's unilateral decisions rather than show cracks in the united front.

2. good discipline is calm, firm, and consistent. dont make it so you have to get mad to do discipline. discipline as calmly as possible. make it firm-- dont plead. act like you expect them to obey. pleading or worrying about sounding nice, shows a lack of resolve on your part. you may have to "act" more confident than you feel, but just do it. dont sound angry, sound firm. (that speech is almost verbatim from my dog's former schutzhund trainer's advice to my wife for controlling our rottweiler. works on obstinate kids as well as obstinate dogs!)

about consistency: make simple rules and follow them. if they test you at a weak moment, show your resolve. change your rules as much as necessary, but beyond that as rarely as possible.

3. I'm not against spanking in principle, but I dont see it as very effective past toddler stage. Anyhow you want to ingrain principles of behavior and self control that will extend beyond your immediate physical presence and corporal punishment will not achieve that in my opinion. My wife has been a liberal spanker, but not me. I've done it a few times, pretty much only when the child exhibited a behavior dangerous to themselves or their sibling which required an immediate and memorable correction (my mother said "when the toddler runs out in the street they get a spanking"), but I absolutely loathe doing it. To me it shows a failure to devise or employ more effective methods of oral control.

Toni,

What's in her diet? Is she getting a lot of sugary, processed foods at school or at home? You may have to pack her a lunch instead of letting her buy school lunch. also, are there vending machines at her school.

We have the same problem with our 7 year old daughter. I'm a real bastard in the discipline department. She is unable to manipulate me, though she tries. She screams, "I hate you," and I just laugh and say, "That's your choice. I love you no matter what, but you can hate me if you want." If she's really bad, I'll say, "Go to your room, I don't want to listen to this crap." and I'll carry her to her room and lock her in.
.......
One last thing to try, Toni. We take our daughter on five mile walks almost every night. If she refuses to go, we take away her hot lunch and movie, so she goes. I think this burns off excess bratty energy. Also, some people might think we are setting her up for eating disorders, but we have made her weight conscious and pressure her to go on 5 mile walks "or you'll be fat like the girl next door." She eats healthy and goes to gymnastics too, but she is also aware of the whole fat thing (how could she not, it's all around us) and we teach her to deal with it by going on five mile walks and doing gymnastics (as opposed to starving and puking).

I think it's better to explain this stuff to the kid long before she has to deal with it. Our kid is being mentally prepared for all or most of the ugliness and pitfalls of what's ahead of her in the teen years -- obesity, race mixing, consumerism. On the one hand, we keep her on a tight leash; on the other hand, we don't shelter her from knowledge of the world.

Rob

If Rob and his spouse are half as good of parents as they've always sounded to me, they're a grand success. Just wish we could get another youngun out of that union somehow?

She obeys her father when he is around but I have little to no control over her.

Some intelligent replies, I dont think.

Obviously the onset of adrenarchy, a big cuddle and a rational non patronizing explanation from dad works every time. This is a crucial formative time for her and any one, particularly a Woman should remember how traumatic this era can be.

She loves her mom but right now what she needs is a man in her life so come on dad be her knight in shining armour ;)

My grandmother just wasn't watching her closely enough.


Sure, there are times when it is useful, even necessary.


I'd rather someone not fold my socks right than beat me over the head with a tire iron.
I suspect that the passive-aggressive substitute for beating you in the head with a tire-iron would be something rather more severe than folding your socks wrong. You'd be framed on some bogus charge.

Yeah, I was being a little facetious there.

Toni,What's in her diet? Is she getting a lot of sugary, processed foods at school or at home? You may have to pack her a lunch instead ...Good point.
That's part of that family "Tune up" needed, before one looks further into the problem.

1- Caffeine & sugar based beverages (Coca cola) are known to cause aggression in children.

2- Dwelling within a certain proximity to cell phone antennas are also a suspected source of disturbance

3- Certain medication can also cause disorders

wow, lots of good advice and thanks toni for a good discussion topic, even if it pains you.

here are my simple rules for parental disciple..............



AE,

Thank you for take on the subject. Has this forum renamed you Socrates, yet? It would fit. ;)

Thanks for the reminder about being firm. While back we adopted a stray dog from the humane soceity and I trained him to do all sorts of tricks (lay down, sit, shake) while working with him my neighbor, who trains dog for hunting, stated he wanted to give me some advice. That is exactly what he said about not "asking" the dog to sit...but "telling" the dog to sit, to stay firm in my voice, absolute and with resolve w/ confidence in my voice. This helped emmensly. My view of the dog changed and he became more obeident. I joking told him it took me 8 years to figure that out with my own kids. That was about a year ago and I have made some changes to that regard. I don't ask for something to be done or something to stop, I don't hint or use maniuplative language (like my mom still does) to request something to be done. I am forward and direct with my children. Maybe I didn't learn this soon enough with my daughter and has lend itself over to confusion with her.
Oh - the dog, he's gone, he was a runner and I was so tired of chasing him and he would not be trained to stay when the door was open. He still had a lot of "stray" in him, lucky he was adopted within 3 days after I gave him up, he was a full breed Brittany and would make an excellent hunting dog - if he had a shock collar on him so he wouldn't take off running :(.

As for the united front, I agree, but when conversations come up and we disagree, sometimes the children hear. I don't bitch and bicker about little things, except his driving but usually I will stand my ground about what concerns me - racial matters, if it is appropriate time and place.

Good point.
That's part of that family "Tune up" needed, before one looks further into the problem.

1- Caffeine & sugar based beverages (Coca cola) are known to cause aggression in children.

2- Dwelling within a certain proximity to cell phone antennas are also a suspected source of disturbance

3- Certain medication can also cause disorders

1 - She has limited sugar and no caffeine, unless in its in chocolate. I don't allow caffeine beverages.

2- Didn't know this about cell phone antennas - you mean the phones themselves or towers? However my cell usually stays in the van, I hardly have it sitting out on a table.

3 - She currently isn't on any medication and I am not planning to put her on anything.

Kievsky hit something on the head that would help us out - exercise. She has a lot of energy, I remember her stopped taking naps when all the other little toddlers still had nap time, she can go to bed late and get up early and go all day without sitting down. She isn't hyper, she is constanly on the go and thus she needs constant physical exercise and/or brain stimulation. She gets bored too easily.

Since she is not particularly troubled, the best thing is to practice ignoring her outbursts.

Ya, my husband thinks she'll just grow out of it. I want her to learn how to control her emotions, its not healthy to carry on the way she does, she is going to get an ulcer before she is twenty if she doesn't stop. Thanks:)

AE,
Thank you for take on the subject. Has this forum renamed you Socrates, yet? It would fit. ;) .

That's a real compliment and one I surely dont deserve. But, I do intend to help make this "forum" something like the famous Athenian one where citizens of the same political unit-- our White nation-- can engage in useful discussion.


Thanks for the reminder about being firm. ........ I am forward and direct with my children. Maybe I didn't learn this soon enough with my daughter and has lend itself over to confusion with her. .........

Maybe so, and so much more the reason to stick with it. Firm, consistent, calm.


As for the united front, I agree, but when conversations come up and we disagree, sometimes the children hear. I don't bitch and bicker about little things, except his driving but usually I will stand my ground about what concerns me - racial matters, if it is appropriate time and place.

You should stand your ground, but you should also have an agreement, in principle, not to bicker in front of the kids. I'm not talking submission here, just agreement to disagreee-- in private. This is a constant struggle in my house but one in which since this has been implemented, results have been apparent and both parents now understand the importance.

I'm not talking about agreeing about everything, mostly just not fighting and hollering in front of them. Of course you're a lady so I'm sure you dont nag or henpeck your lucky husband. Though all couples have disagreements from time to time and people are entitled to a fair hearing of their concerns. But, there is one area where there should be much uniform agreement and that is RULES. The rules have to be set and maintained by both parents. That's where the united front is the MOST important. We've all seen our parents fight and that didnt hurt us. What hurts is when we think we can play one parent off another to stay out late, get candy, whatever the childish whim is. That's what you have to nip in the bud by absolutely united agreement on rules. As you will see from the examples that follow, simple rules make life easier for parents, but simple rules wont get followed unless both parents uphold the rules uniformly.

here's my idea of rules for little kids just for examples.

1-- no food or dessert or candy or sugary drinks after night-time toothbrushing.
2-- take your dirty shoes off at the door and dont track inside.
3. No TV (insert as many limitations as possible... )
4. homework before play
5. make your bed every morning
6. pick up dirty clothes and put them in hamper not on the floor
7. always flush the toilet
8. brush teeth every night before bed
9. dont talk to strangers/ mind your own business
10. do what your mother/father says-- dont appeal to me to reverse his/her decisions.

Those are major ones that have emerged so far which need reminding enough that they popped into my head right away!