The Israelis are licking their lips thinking of all the tourist money that this "Oldest Christian Church" is going to bring them, but all it is is a mosaic with two fishes (no loaves) and an inscription they say "refers" to Jesus. It looks like any sort of pagan zodiac cult to me. And it just happens to be on the site of Armeggedon. Watch for a New Age Zionistic cult to spring up around this site.

Edit:
http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20051106/capt.jrl10611061316.mideast_israel_ancient_church_jrl106.jpg?

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20051106/capt.jrl11011061345.mideast_israel_ancient_church_jrl110.jpg?

A wild guess - he's pointing to an alpha and omega symbol?

The Israelis are licking their lips thinking of all the tourist money that this "Oldest Christian Church" is going to bring them, but all it is is a mosaic with two fishes (no loaves) and an inscription they say "refers" to Jesus. It looks like any sort of pagan zodiac cult to me. And it just happens to be on the site of Armeggedon. Watch for a New Age Zionistic cult to spring up around this site.

Edit:
http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20051106/capt.jrl10611061316.mideast_israel_ancient_church_jrl106.jpg?
I read Greek but I can't really tell what that says. I think I see theos, God. Do you have a better image of the inscriptions?

No, I don't have any other pix.

But here is Jesus in Greek, according to wikipedia.

Ιησούς

You have 3 major dialects Classical, Hellenistic and Koine/common Greek. The latter is what Christians use. I have not studied the first 2 but using the latter nothing in the pic really makes sense. However the second line from bottom, which looks like could say Lord Jesus or God Jesus. I can see Theos which means God but can be translated Lord. Also in lower case the IVXW could be loosely translated as Jesus. It has been 4 years since I seriously studied Greek.

However, Jesus was a common name at that time and it could refer to someone else or it could be something against Christianity. Seems like a Jew plot for cash if you ask me. There is nothing in that hunk of sand that should be any interest to Christians.

You have 3 major dialects Classical, Hellenistic and Koine/common Greek. The latter is what Christians use. I have not studied the first 2 but using the latter nothing in the pic really makes sense. However the second line from bottom, which looks like could say Lord Jesus or God Jesus. I can see Theos which means God but can be translated Lord. Also in lower case the IVXW could be loosely translated as Jesus. It has been 4 years since I seriously studied Greek.

However, Jesus was a common name at that time and it could refer to someone else or it could be something against Christianity. Seems like a Jew plot for cash if you ask me. There is nothing in that hunk of sand that should be any interest to Christians.


Something like Iuxo? He's never been called that before.

Something like Iuxo? He's never been called that before.
It doesn't say that. That X is a chi, and I think those four letters are probably either an abbreviation or a date. Abbreviations are common in ancient inscriptions.

It's not just theos but philotheos, god-loving, in the third line. In the fourth line is ten trape, "which he turned." It's hard to make sense of it without seeing the whole thing clearly.

The fish was the earliest Christian symbol. I CH TH U S, FISH, was an acronym: Iesus Christos Theou Uios Soter : Jesus Anointed Son of God Savior. The cross was a symbol of the cult of Isis when Christianity began, so it's not what you would look for on a Christian church.

It's ironic that Jews would be making money on a Christian church.

The fish was the earliest Christian symbol. I CH TH U S, FISH, was an acronym: Iesus Christos Theou Uios Soter : Jesus Anointed Son of God Savior
Actually the fish symbol came first and the acronym only came later, after the official doctrines about Jesus being son of God and saviour were adopted.

Abzug is closer to the mark. The fish is a zodiac symbol for Pisces. It's not particularly "pagan" though since all religions back then used the zodiac and astrology, including Jews and Christians. There are Jewish synagouges and Christian Churches from this time period with mosiacs depicting the twelve signs of the Zodiac. The Bible, both old and new testament, is chock full of astrological symbolism.

It's a fascinating topic; read up on the precession of the Equinox, which takes about 26,000 years to complete, and about every 2,100 years the Equinox moves into a new sign of the Zodiac, thus starting a new "age" (we are currently at the beginning of the age of Aquarius - which contra what the New Agers think, is not automatically a good thing) . Around the time of Christ the Equinox was moving from the earlier age of Aries (sign of the ram, sheep, or lamb, hence the Jesus as the "lamb of God" and "good shephard" symbolisms) into the new age of Pisces. Thus the adoption of the symbol of pisces, the fish, as a new symbol for the god of a new age.

Actually the fish symbol came first and the acronym only came later, after the official doctrines about Jesus being son of God and saviour were adopted.

Abzug is closer to the mark. The fish is a zodiac symbol for Pisces. It's not particularly "pagan" though since all religions back then used the zodiac and astrology, including Jews and Christians. There are Jewish synagouges and Christian Churches from this time period with mosiacs depicting the twelve signs of the Zodiac. The Bible, both old and new testament, is chock full of astrological symbolism.

I don't think anybody really knows anything about what Christianity was, as you say, before the doctrine that Jesus was the savior and Son of God. If you take the Gospels at face value, Jesus was attributed these characteristics from birth, so that you would be referring to a period that never occurred. If you think you have some better source about the life of Jesus I would like to know what it is.

Loaves and fishes were Christian symbols, but of not actually a symbol of Christ.

The fish symbol was Leviathan, the devil, or hell in mainstream Christian symbolism. Supposedly some Coptic Christians used it for something(?), but I think the fish is one of Talmudic changes that was "re"-introduced in the sixties to make monkeys out of Christians.

There was a middle Eastern cult that worshipped a goddess Attargartis (?) and they wore silver fish tokens around their necks.



I do not believe the cross was associated with Isis. There is an image of the Earth god Seb/Geb holding a cross and orb in one of Budge's books, I believe.

Or maybe you mean the ankh was a cross. So they say. My hunch is that the ankh was actually AN-KI, that is, heaven AN, symbolized by an egg and earth KI, symbolized by the cross.

the cross was a solar symbol in northern europe long before the Christ. like the hakenkreuz was as well.

The sun usually was represented by a seven rayed disc, among educated people with calendars and such.


From Haaretz:
Prison dig reveals church that may be the oldest in the world

By Amiram Barkat, Haaretz Correspondent, and AP

A mosaic and the remains of a building uncovered recently in excavations on the Megiddo prison grounds may belong to the earliest church in the world, according to a preliminary examination by the Israel Antiquities Authority.

One of the most dramatic finds suggests that, instead of an altar, a simple table stood in the center of the church, at which a sacred meal was held to commemorate the Last Supper.

Photographs of three Greek inscriptions in the mosaic were sent to Hebrew University expert Professor Leah Di Segni, who told Haaretz on Sunday that the use of the term "table" in one of them instead of the word "altar" might lead to a breakthrough in the study of ancient Christianity. It is commonly believed that church rituals based on the Last Supper took place around an altar. [Oh, they've been on about tables instead of altars since Vat II]

The excavation was begun prior to the issuing of building permits for a new wing of the Megiddo prison, which houses security prisoners. Some 60 inmates from the Megiddo and Tzalmon prisons took part in the excavation.

The site is close to Tel Megiddo, believed to be Armageddon of the New Testament book of Revelation.

The northern inscription mentions a Roman army officer who donated the money to build the floor. *The eastern inscription commemorates four women, and the western inscription mentions a woman by the name of Ekeptos, who "donated this table to the God Jesus Christ in commemoration."*
The mosaic also contains geometric patterns and a medallion with a fish design.

*"I was told these were Byzantine*," Di Segni said, "but they seem much earlier than anything I have seen so far from the Byzantine period. It could be from the third or the beginning of the fourth century."

A pottery vessel discovered at the site confirms Di Segni's dating, however she said the church's age can only be determined with certainty after excavators reach the level below the floor. "The problem is that in Israel we have no mosaic inscriptions from this period, and they will have to be compared with inscriptions from Antioch or Rome," she said.

Christian rituals were prohibited in the Roman Empire prior to the year 313 CE, and Christians had to pray in secret in catacombs or private homes. The earliest churches, dating from around 330 CE, are the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem, the Nativity in Bethlehem, and Alonei Mamre near Hebron. However, they contain only scant remains of the original structures, which were built by Emperor Constantine I.

The structure discovered at the Megiddo prison is a simple rectangular one lacking the later characteristics of churches, such as an apse facing east. *"I don't know if this structure can even be called a church*," Di Sengi said.

Other discoveries at the prison include dwellings from the Roman times and a ritual bath, which was sealed and built on top of during the Byzantine period, bearing out historical information about a Jewish site in this area, Kfar Othnai, which became a Christian site in the Byzantine period.

The excavation was directed by Yotan Tepper of the Israel Antiquities Authority.

Tourism Minister Avraham Hirchson [a jew who loves money] said [greedily that ] the discovery could greatly increase tourism to Israel.

"If we nurture [exploit] this properly, then certainly there will be a large stream of tourists who could come to Israel. There is great potential and together with the evangelical center in the north could bring great strides [lots of money] in tourism," he told Channel Two.

Loaves and fishes were Christian symbols, but of not actually a symbol of Christ.

The fish symbol was Leviathan, the devil, or hell in mainstream Christian symbolism. Supposedly some Coptic Christians used it for something(?), but I think the fish is one of Talmudic changes that was "re"-introduced in the sixties to make monkeys out of Christians.

There was a middle Eastern cult that worshipped a goddess Attargartis (?) and they wore silver fish tokens around their necks.



I do not believe the cross was associated with Isis. There is an image of the Earth god Seb/Geb holding a cross and orb in one of Budge's books, I believe.

Or maybe you mean the ankh was a cross. So they say. My hunch is that the ankh was actually AN-KI, that is, heaven AN, symbolized by an egg and earth KI, symbolized by the cross.
Leviathan was a seamonster, a relic of the Babylonian pantheon (Tiamat), not a mere fish.

My recollection from reading is that male devotees of the Cult of Isis wore linen, shaved their heads, and had a small cross tattooed on one temple of the head. The Ankkh is not a symbol of Isis but of the unity of Isis and Osiris. There is at least as much reason for the Cult of Isis to be associated with the cross as for Christianity, since a number of priests of Isis were crucified in Rome about the same time that Jesus was allegedly crucified in Jerusalem, during the reign of Tiberius.

Leviathan was a seamonster, a relic of the Babylonian pantheon (Tiamat), not a mere fish.

My recollection from reading is that male devotees of the Cult of Isis wore linen, shaved their heads, and had a small cross tattooed on one temple of the head. The Ankkh is not a symbol of Isis but of the unity of Isis and Osiris. There is at least as much reason for the Cult of Isis to be associated with the cross as for Christianity, since a number of priests of Isis were crucified in Rome about the same time that Jesus was allegedly crucified in Jerusalem, during the reign of Tiberius.


I think some pagan priests, maybe of Serapsis, actually used to crucify themselves as part of their sacrifices.

Fish - I got that from a scholarly book on Christian symbolism from the 19th c., the only fish he listed had the meaning of "the great fish", Leviathan. The sea monster was also used in hero cults, where the hero was shown escaping from the mouth of the fish. In Christianity it had a connection with Jesus as a new Jonah who tore open the gate of hell. Something that has been erased from Judeo-Christianity, I believe.

The other day I saw the six pointed star in a 1950s encyclopedia shown under magic charms as a "Hex symbol". We were so much wiser then.

Do you have a source for this Isis priest info?

the cross was a solar symbol in northern europe long before the Christ. like the hakenkreuz was as well.

I would like to see one scrap of physical evidence to support that, by which I mean: that the hakenkreuz was a solar symbol, or even occurs, in northern Europe "long before the Christ." Please show me one example of this. I have looked long & hard, for symbol-people keep saying it is so, but to this day I have found nothing better than north Italian examples from the Villanovan culture (1100 - 800BC; read: Celtic).

I think some pagan priests, maybe of Serapsis, actually used to crucify themselves as part of their sacrifices.

Fish - I got that from a scholarly book on Christian symbolism from the 19th c., the only fish he listed had the meaning of "the great fish", Leviathan. The sea monster was also used in hero cults, where the hero was shown escaping from the mouth of the fish. In Christianity it had a connection with Jesus as a new Jonah who tore open the gate of hell. Something that has been erased from Judeo-Christianity, I believe.

The other day I saw the six pointed star in a 1950s encyclopedia shown under magic charms as a "Hex symbol". We were so much wiser then.

Do you have a source for this Isis priest info?
I forgot to mention that the fish also has some significance in Graeco-Egyptian religion. Of all the creatures as which one may be reincarnated, according to the Hermetica, the fish is the lowest. The fish-symolism may have had something to do with the fact that Christianity's outreach was to the lowest in society.

If you mean the information about the crucifixion of the priests of Isis during the reign of Tiberius, that is in Tacitus' Annals. I can't remember where I read the details about their appearance--shaved head and cross tattoo on the temple. I would have cited the source if I could recall. Some details about their appearance are in Apuleius' The Golden Ass.

Of course the fish has relevance to lots of different religions and cults which developed in the area.

Lots and lots of people are dependent on fish/seafood for the majority of the protein in their diet in the Mediterranean and surrounding area, and they always have been.

So it's a very logical symbol to have been used as a basic symbol of 'life' by religious cults in the area, and one which 'would have made sense' to all types of people living in that area, on or around the Mediterranean.

If it was used by very early Christians and the early evangelists, it would help explain exactly why Christianity spread so quickly and took root in so many places in the area (at first); because fundamental to it were symbols which appealed to lots of different people on a very basic level.

I would like to see one scrap of physical evidence to support that, by which I mean: that the hakenkreuz was a solar symbol, or even occurs, in northern Europe "long before the Christ." Please show me one example of this. I have looked long & hard, for symbol-people keep saying it is so, but to this day I have found nothing better than north Italian examples from the Villanovan culture (1100 - 800BC; read: Celtic).

Well I saw swastikas on pre-Christian artifacts at a museum either in Oslo or Stockholm, can't recall which, but if I had to bet I would say Oslo. Maybe at the place they keep the Gokstad ship.

Pre-Christian in Norway or Sweden would mean pretty much right up to the time of King Olaf (1015).

I read up a little more on this and the design also appears on cups from the pre-Christian Anglo-Saxon Sutton Hoo hoard. But then again, that is AD not BC. Also in Greece Athena was depicted in dressings decorated with the swastika, but that would not necessarily suggest anything solar.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/britannia/anglo-saxon/suttonhoo/suttonhoo.html

So, yes it is a pre-Christian European symbol, but perhaps not literally before the Christ, except as a decoration for the Greeks, and in that case perhaps not necessarily a solar symbol.

Of course the fish has relevance to lots of different religions and cults which developed in the area.

Lots and lots of people are dependent on fish/seafood for the majority of the protein in their diet in the Mediterranean and surrounding area, and they always have been.

So it's a very logical symbol to have been used as a basic symbol of 'life' by religious cults in the area, and one which 'would have made sense' to all types of people living in that area, on or around the Mediterranean.

If it was used by very early Christians and the early evangelists, it would help explain exactly why Christianity spread so quickly and took root in so many places in the area (at first); because fundamental to it were symbols which appealed to lots of different people on a very basic level.

Fish also suggests something about astrology. Consider the popularity of Zoroastrianism and Mithraism prior to the Christ; the reputation of the Magi for astrology, and the "Epiphany" of Christ which alluded to his acclamation by the Magi.

Revilo Oliver suggests not only that these cults prefigured Christianity, but that perhaps it was Zoroastrianism, rather than Christianity, that was the first "Jew mind enslavement trick" perpetrated on Aryans. Though he admitted he lacked evidence for his hypothesis that the Magi were crypto-Jews, it's certainly possible considering their close relationship between kikery and Cyrus, who rebuilt the Second Jew Temple.

The Magi (being representatives of Zoroastrianism) appearing at the birth of Christ is no accident: it serves exactly the same purposes as the mentions of the Old Testament prophets and Christ in the Qu'ran (for example).

Funnily enough, the Mithra-cult rivalled the Christ-cult for popularity until the third or fourth centuries AD, even in Rome itself (where Mithra became known particularly as a protector of soldiers). That bloc is where a lot of Christian converts came from, especially after the Roman emperors went Christian themselves. It wasn't too much of a change; the outward elements of Christian worship and Mithraic worship weren't all that different.

I don't think anybody really knows anything about what Christianity was, as you say, before the doctrine that Jesus was the savior and Son of God. If you take the Gospels at face value, Jesus was attributed these characteristics from birth, so that you would be referring to a period that never occurred. If you think you have some better source about the life of Jesus I would like to know what it is.A "better source" than the Bible? Why should I have to provide a "better source" for a fictional character? If I were trying to disprove the existance of Santa Claus, would you demand that I provide a "better source" than the poem "Twas the Night Before Christmas"? What is this obsession with "sources" for things that by their very nature are anti-historical and incapable of being "sourced"? Do you realize the foolishness of what you are asking? If Jesus was attributed with everything you say he was, at birth, his story would be impossible to have happened in first century Jewish Palestine. It's a mishmash of Jewish and pagan myths, edited and reedited for polemical purposes in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th century times with the intent of winning religious arguments and gaining power, not with the intent of writing sober history.

Let's not worry about "sources" that were lies to begin with; common sense and logic are better tools for understading history, rather than regurgitating religious dogma that completely is unsupported by history - the history that wasn't deliberately forged or destroyed by 2,000 years of religious totalitarianism, that is. There are no contemporaneous historical sources (apart from forgeries inserted into Josephus, for example) for "Jesus of Nazareth" (a town that did not even exist then) and the Gospels contain impossibilities that demonstrate it was written by people who didn't even understand the basic geography of Palestine. The entire mess of the NT is a hodge podge thrown together hundreds of years after the alleged events to meet political purposes wildly at odds with anything remotely resembling sober history. The OT is for similar reasons not historical.

All this is obvious to anyone willing to examine the historical sources without wearing religious dogmatic blinders, but that's pretty rare these days unfortunately. It's much easier to "go with the flow" and accept religious myths as factual rather than suffer the grueling process of seperating historical wheat from religious chaff. It's like the Holocaust in that way; it's easier to just give up and "believe" rather than fight against the myth.

Here's a good a place to start as any: http://www.jesusneverexisted.com.

Well I saw swastikas on pre-Christian artifacts at a museum either in Oslo or Stockholm, can't recall which, but if I had to bet I would say Oslo. Maybe at the place they keep the Gokstad ship.

Pre-Christian in Norway or Sweden would mean pretty much right up to the time of King Olaf (1015).

I read up a little more on this and the design also appears on cups from the pre-Christian Anglo-Saxon Sutton Hoo hoard. But then again, that is AD not BC. Also in Greece Athena was depicted in dressings decorated with the swastika, but that would not necessarily suggest anything solar.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/britannia/anglo-saxon/suttonhoo/suttonhoo.html

So, yes it is a pre-Christian European symbol, but perhaps not literally before the Christ, except as a decoration for the Greeks, and in that case perhaps not necessarily a solar symbol.
WTF are we still bothering to discuss this? The swastika is all over the ancient world, long, long before Christ, and its solar nature is not disputed either. Sure, no one may have written down "this is a solar symbol" when they didn't have writing, such is the nature of symbolism! But references to the solar nature of the symbol go way back and weren't just invented yesterday by New Age hippies, nor is it "speculative" to point out some of the more obvious solar symbolism inherent in the swastika. Likewise the swastika is so ancient, and found all over the world, that I don't know why we are bothering to "debate" such a well documented subject. I don't know offhand about Northern Europe in particular, but Europe and the near east (Anatolia) and Asia have plenty of ancient swastikas in the archeological record. Anyone who claims not to be able to find sources for these hasn't bothered to look. Here's what a simple Google search turns up; these are not primary sources of course but anyone wanting to spend the leg work in the library can easily trace these back to their primary sources:

http://www.google.com/search?hs=yLy&hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial_s&q=swastika+ancient+origin+meaning&btnG=Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial_s&q=swastika+ancient+origin+meaning+archeology&btnG=Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial_s&q=swastika+archeology+solar&btnG=Search

Anyway, what is the big deal, even assuming for the sake of argument that there are no ancient swastikas in northern Europe? Or we really to believe that there was no cultural/religious/symbolic/mythical connection between Celts in northern Italy, and Germans north of the alps centuries later? That's absurd. There is no cultural dividing line between northerrn and southern Europe; moreover most people in northern Italy would hotly deny that they are in southern Europe at all and would see plenty of ancient cultural ties between themselves and people across the alps in France, Switzerland, Austria, etc. Just as anciently northern Italy was Celtic, it was more recently Germanic, as names such as Lombardy indicate.

Getting back to the fish....people seem to forget that many early Christians themselves admitted that the Christian story was an allegory, not to be taken literally. Its inner meanings were to be revealed to initiates, just like any other mystery religion of the late Roman Empire. Just like Mithraism. And like Mithraism, Christianity was astrotheological, and concerned with sidereal religion and with the precession of the Equinox. The world at that time was entering the Age of Pisces, represented by the fish (ie, the Zodiac symbol; Pisces = a fish). As a religion claiming to be the religion of the New Age of Pisces, it was natural for Christians to use the fish as their symbol. Linking this symbol into other analogies such as "fishers of men" was only natural; the shallower meaning of "fishers of men" has been remembered (because it is contained in the exoteric tradition of the Bible), the deeper, inner, hidden (esoteric) meaning in regards to the Age of Pisces has been accidentally or deliberately obscured.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial_s&q=astrotheology&btnG=Search

http://www.google.com/search?q=sidereal+religion&btnG=Search&hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial_s

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial_s&q=precession+of+the+equinox&btnG=Searchhttp://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial_s&q=precession+of+the+equinox&btnG=Search

I would like to see one scrap of physical evidence to support that, by which I mean: that the hakenkreuz was a solar symbol, or even occurs, in northern Europe "long before the Christ." Please show me one example of this. I have looked long & hard, for symbol-people keep saying it is so, but to this day I have found nothing better than north Italian examples from the Villanovan culture (1100 - 800BC; read: Celtic).Villanovan isn't Celtic, at least no one has been able to prove such, although it is said to be related to the Hallstat Culture, which can't be proven to be Celtic either (no writing, of course) although it is probably proto-celtic. In any case Villanovan came into Italy from the north, just like the later Celts and Germans.

Here's a Wiki article; again, just a secondary source, but it should point you in the right direction:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#Adoption_of_the_swastika_in_the_West

Pre-Christian European traditions

The swastika (also called a fylfot, a term coined in the 19th century from a 1500 reference to a figure used to fill empty space at the foot of stained-glass windows in medieval churches) appears as an ornament on many pre-Christian artefacts, drawn both clockwise and counterclockwise, within a circle or in a swirling form. The Greek goddess Athena was sometimes portrayed as wearing robes covered with swastikas. The "Ogham stone" found in County Kerry, Ireland is inscribed with several swastikas dating to the fifth century AD, and is believed to have been an altar stone of the Druids. The pre-Christian Anglo-Saxon ship burial at Sutton Hoo, England, contains gold cups and shields bearing swastikas.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Receboga.jpg

The "Hands of Gods" (reche boga), allegedly an old (pre-Christian) Polish symbol of Svarog.The swastika was also present in pre-Christian Slavic mythology. It was dedicated to the sun god named Svarog and called kolovrat. In the Polish first Republic the symbol of Swastika was also popular with the nobility. According to chronicles, Varangians prince Oleg who in the 9th century with his Rus Vikings had captured Constantinople, had nailed his shield to the cities gates, which had a large red Swastika painted on it. The several polish noble houses f.e. Boreyko, Borzym, Radziechowski from Ruthenia also had Swastikas as their coat of arms. The family had reached its greatness in the 14-15th centuries and their crest can be seen in many heraldry books produced at that time.

A "better source" than the Bible? Why should I have to provide a "better source" for a fictional character? If I were trying to disprove the existance of Santa Claus, would you demand that I provide a "better source" than the poem "Twas the Night Before Christmas"? What is this obsession with "sources" for things that by their very nature are anti-historical and incapable of being "sourced"? Do you realize the foolishness of what you are asking? If Jesus was attributed with everything you say he was, at birth, his story would be impossible to have happened in first century Jewish Palestine. It's a mishmash of Jewish and pagan myths, edited and reedited for polemical purposes in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th century times with the intent of winning religious arguments and gaining power, not with the intent of writing sober history.

Let's not worry about "sources" that were lies to begin with; common sense and logic are better tools for understading history, rather than regurgitating religious dogma that completely is unsupported by history - the history that wasn't deliberately forged or destroyed by 2,000 years of religious totalitarianism, that is. There are no contemporaneous historical sources (apart from forgeries inserted into Josephus, for example) for "Jesus of Nazareth" (a town that did not even exist then) and the Gospels contain impossibilities that demonstrate it was written by people who didn't even understand the basic geography of Palestine. The entire mess of the NT is a hodge podge thrown together hundreds of years after the alleged events to meet political purposes wildly at odds with anything remotely resembling sober history. The OT is for similar reasons not historical.

All this is obvious to anyone willing to examine the historical sources without wearing religious dogmatic blinders, but that's pretty rare these days unfortunately. It's much easier to "go with the flow" and accept religious myths as factual rather than suffer the grueling process of seperating historical wheat from religious chaff. It's like the Holocaust in that way; it's easier to just give up and "believe" rather than fight against the myth.

Here's a good a place to start as any: http://www.jesusneverexisted.com.Yes I had a pretty good idea that there was no such source, but you can't be sure what people might offer. On the other hand I am not sure, and you can't be sure, that there was not a real person named Jesus on whose life the Gospels are a fanciful elaboration. Next you're going to tell me that Apollonius of Tyana was not real.

Don't be so snooty next time.

The Magi (being representatives of Zoroastrianism) appearing at the birth of Christ is no accident: it serves exactly the same purposes as the mentions of the Old Testament prophets and Christ in the Qu'ran (for example).

Funnily enough, the Mithra-cult rivalled the Christ-cult for popularity until the third or fourth centuries AD, even in Rome itself (where Mithra became known particularly as a protector of soldiers). That bloc is where a lot of Christian converts came from, especially after the Roman emperors went Christian themselves. It wasn't too much of a change; the outward elements of Christian worship and Mithraic worship weren't all that different.

Which is exactly why I have thought it silly that Julian the Apostate repudiated Christianity and became... A Mithraist.

The Mithra cult was Persian (Aryan) rather than Jewish (nonwhite). Second, it wasn't exclusive: theoretically, you didn't have to repudiate your ancestors' Gods to worship Mithra, any more than you had to repudiate your ancestors' Gods to honor, say, Hercules.

At a site in Roman Britain, the community apparently brought the statues and paraphernalia of all the other Gods to the Mithra temple for safekeeping from the Xians. For example, the Diana temple's devotees would have been like girl scouts today. They were spunky but their parents knew it would be a tragedy if they tried to stand up to the Xians. The Mithra devotees especially included soldiers and bureaucrats. The equivalent of the sheriff and mayor almost certainly would have been Mithra devotees. So they tried to protect the worshipers of the other Gods.

Mithra temples have been found in which chained Mithra priests had been killed by the Xians by burning and/or burying.

Diocletian tried to support traditional Roman religion: the most common entity he put on coins was "The Genius of the Roman People" (like a minor God, in the sense of "I dream of Genie"), followed by Jupiter, Mars and Hercules (source: R. MacMullen) (Jupiter, Juno & Mars traditionally were the main Roman public Gods). Diocletian also was a Mithra devotee, so it wasn't just Julian.

It took me decades of experience as a political activist often trying to recruit among Xians, to come to the conclusion that Xianity MUST BE DESTROYED. Xianity is and always will be the biggest receptacle of race treason and enslavement to the Jew, and the worst psychic poison and paralysis.

CI is a bold and desperate attempt to whiten Xianity, but it's simply historically false. Besides, "Who wants to be a bunch of paranoid, murderous Jews?"

Martin Lindstedt's CI church defrocked and denounced him because of some communications emanating from jail which:

1. might have been forgeries.
2. seemed, as near as I could tell from the fragmentary quotes in the newspaper, to be logically inspired by the Old Testament.
3. might have been a ploy to get into the psych hospital, because of two murder attempts on Lindstedt in the county jail.

Why reinvent the wheel? Why not go with something that WORKED in the past, the Aryan (Roman/Hellenic/German) religion?

It's analogous to the argument for NS. NS worked. Why reinvent the wheel?

No, I don't have any other pix.

But here is Jesus in Greek, according to wikipedia.

??????Err alrighty than
no wonder they beleved in the greek mythology, they cant even prounaunce the name Jesus :box: