Anybody know anything about them? Good, bad, indifferent?

http://www.equipped.org/pp/GR/EW_K01.JPG


http://www.kel-tec.com/su-16b_rifle.htm

http://www.equipped.org/Kel-Tec_SU-16_Review.htm

No Idea, but at first glance I'd say it's nothing if not innovative. I like the fact it can store two magazines and fold up like that, particularly the C model which can actually be fired while folded, and it's added "bi-pod" capability, that's just awesome.

He folded that baby up and carried it in his backpack. I like!

Thanks Steve now that's a rifle worth considering!

I have been considering getting an SU-16 with my tax refund. They have several different models. The "Charlie" model is the only one with a true folding stock, it will fire folded but it doesn't have a spot to store ammo. The best thing about them is that they take AR/M-16 magazines. Then there is the CA model which is California legal. They also have a "Delta" series which are short-barreled and apparently require ATF approval.

There is also the PLR-16 which I posted about in this thread: http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=29840
Basically an SU-16 with a short barrel (counts as pistol) and no stock.

If I do purchase one of these, I will post my experiences with it.

I wonder, would the 20/30 round m16 mags fit in the stock ya think? :confused:

They say the A and B models fit two 10rd. or one 30rd. magazine.

I purchased the SU-16 Charlie a few days ago. The Charlie model has a more composite stock, which allows the rifle to be fired with the stock pushed forward over the magazine and resting on the barrel. Only drawback is it can't hold extra mags in the stock. Kind of looks like some shit The Terminator would use.

It weighs five pounds. And with you being able to fold the stock forward and fire it, it is one compact mother. You could carry it around in a backpack.

The fold out bi-pod works well.

It also takes the 30 round AR-15 mags.

I don't what if it's just my rifle, having been used, or the rifle design itself, but I am very upset with it's performance.

It is powerful, and very easy to handle. And a whole shit load more accurate than the AK-47 I had. However, it has given me a big headache on reliability.

Constantly, constantly, constantly, getting cartridges stuck in the barrel. Also having a very big problem when cocking the rifle, with cartridges getting stuck in the magazine.

When I bought the rifle, I wanted bulk ammo. All they had at the gun shop in bulk was this cheap shit called Bear something or other. It's a laquered steel shell rather than brass. Having the previous owner of an AK-47, I had always purchased the cheap, laquered Wolf ammo shit and never had a problem with it. Of course, that was an Ak-47, and this is a rifle similiar to an AR-15 with everything much tighter. Being uneducated on the matter, I didn't even think about it.

The first day on the range with this cheap laquer shit I was getting a big headache. I was told by a few smarter guys that the problem was the ammo. The laquer can melt when the barrel gets hot, and once it cools the laquer gets stuck in the barrel. This causes ammo to stick in all sorts of different ways. It still pisses me off, because I only put about 50 rounds through it.

I cleaned the shit out of it. Totally field stripped it and cleaned every crack and crevice. Surprisingly, breaking the rifle down, the mechanisms appear very simple. I had to break down the M-16 while in boot camp and this SU-16 is no where near as complicated. Hell, I'd even compare it's simplicity with an AK-47.

Nevertheless, after having cleaned the shit out of it, and having purchased higher quality brass ammo, I took it out to the range today and it gave me the same shit. I got about 60 rounds in before it started doing that.

I can't figure it out. Is laquer still stuck in the barrel somewhere? Is it the magazines? Am I loading the magazines improperly? I don't know, but whatever it is, the constant jamming and rounds being caught in the barrel gives me a big ass headache, and turned a purchase that put a big ass smile on my face into buyer's remorse.

Again, I don't know if it's just mine.

All that being said, if this fucking thing wouldn't fuck with me the way it does, I'd consider it the ideal weapon. Extremely lightweight, extremely compact. Excellent at both long ranges with it's tight action and folding bi-pod, and rail system for easy mounting of scopes, and even more excellent at for close quarters with being able to fire the weapon with the stock folded.

Badass, badass, badass. Genius design. If it didn't give me shit, I could die a happy man having it.

I'm going to ask a few more educated guys to take a look at it and see what I'm doing wrong here. If it's fixable, my days of finger banging Mary Jane Rottencrotch are over, and I am marrying this weapon of composite plastic and steel! If not, going, going, gone, for probably less money than I paid for it. Goddamnit.

If you get one, get it new. You never know what kind of ammo the previous owner put through it. I'm starting to think just 60 rounds of laquered shit has fucked my rifle up for good. And who knows what the guy before me put in it. Or just get a trusty AK-47 (the perfect weapon for dumbasses like me).

That lacquer on the cheap Russian ammo can be a total bitch to get off. You may not have gotten it all off as a lot of solvents will not touch it. What may be happening is that the remaining lacquer in the chamber/barrel area is heating up and remelting once the gun gets hot and then causing your malfunctions. I would take a round of the Bear or Wolf stuff and test solvents to see which, if any, will cut through it. Once you find one, use that one on your piece. If all else fails, you can soak the barrel part (after removing all the plastic parts first!) in the solvent for a few hours to overnight and see if that does the trick. Since the SU-16 doesn't use a direct gas impingement system like the AR-15/M16 does, you should be able to do this without harming anything as long as you clean out the solvent thoroughly. I wouldn't bother with usual gun solvents, as they do not have the "oomph" to get the lacquer off, most likely. Try some carb cleaner or toluene (paint or hardware store) and see if that works. Did I mention to remove the plastic furniture? :D Toluene will dissolve that stuff post-haste. If all else fails, as a last resort, you can get some "Chem-Dip" parts and carb cleaner (comes in a big red, white and blue gallon can) at your local auto parts store. That stuff will remove anything. But be warned, the shit is noxious as hell and do not get any on your skin. Use special rubber gloves (latex will not do any good) and use it outside. The stuff is so powerful it may remove whatever finish is on the metal parts, so use at your own risk and test it in a hidden area first. Your experience is why I don't use Wolf in anything but an AK clone or SKS. I would bet the tolerances on the SU-16 chamber are a lot tighter than an AK. Sure, the AK suffers a little accuracy-wise, but it'll damn sure go bang when you pull the trigger.

The only other thing is that it might be the magazine (assuming you are using only one). If the jamming happens with different magazines, then yeah, it's probably that lacquer crap. If you try different mags and they work, then check the one that was jamming for damage to the feed lips, but since it only happens after 50-60 rounds, it probably isn't the mag.

I was wondering if there was any update on this? I'm thinking of selling off a brand new mini-14 to get one of these. I like the fact that it takes AR-15 mags, and that is the primary reason why I am looking at these (since I won't have to stock two different types of mags). I was also looking at Olympic Arms' 6.5" barrel K23P. But I am leaning towards the Kel-tec since it can be fired both folded and unfolded (kind of serving the same purpose as the OA K23P - but with a longer more accurate barrel).

Any, it would be interesting to see if you were able to resolve the issue (or if anyone else has a review of the SU-16s I'd appreciate it).

Well, I found out the rifle was actually brand new.

Did a lot of research on the net, and found the same fuck-up stories all of the place. Even published stuff from Kel-Tec saying that laquered ammo is the number one source of problems with the rifle.

Being that it was new, I suppose I could have sent it to the factory. Kel-tec has great customer service and warranty. However, I was unsure if they could even take care of it as it was technically an "operator's fault."

I just got so pissed and tired of dealing with it, I took it back to the assholes that sold it to me, gave them a story about "I just turned 21 and I'd rather have a pistol" and I traded it for a Glock 17. If they don't want properly inform customers about shit like that, fuck 'em, let it be their problem. Unfortunately, I lost about $250 on the deal due to the massive amount of shitty ammo and 30 round AR-15 magazines that I bought, but I just wanted the shit out of my hands.

That being said...would I buy another one? Eh....

I loved that fucking thing, and I think it is an extremely innovative rifle. Being able to pack a 5-pound rifle in your backpack on a camping trip? Fucking beautiful.

1. Very lightweight
2. Very accurate
3. Very little recoil (due to the spring being on the barrel rather than in the bolt area I believe)
4. Fold out bi-pods
5. folding stock with firing capability (and very little recoil)
6. Shit load cheaper than AR-15
7. Takes 30 round AR-15 mags
8. Built in rail for easy mounting of sighting accessories or flashlight (though this kind of defeats the purpose of such a beautifully lightweight rifle)

I'll just put it this way. Young and inexperienced, and I got burned. Therefore, I'm AK all the way from now on until I'm not a broke bastard anymore. I love the fact that the day I bought my AK for $300, I put 500 laquer rounds through it, did not clean it, put it in the closet for two months, took it back out to the range, and put almost another 250 through it without a hitch. I took much greater intricate care of my 5.56 Kel-tec, and it still didn't love me back after less than 100 rounds.

I'm young. I'm poor. Buying an "expensive" rifle that fucks with me on the first day turns my whole world upside down. Just too big of a headache. Can't do it.

That being said, I recommend this rifle.

Buy it new.

No shitty ammo.

Clean it, clean it, clean it.

Sorry to hear that, and thanks for the feedback.

I guess I will skip it. I have an Olympic Arms K7 Eliminator and really like it and have had no reliability problems. I really like the AR's because of their modularity. You can exchange uppers and lowers between different manufacturers. There will never be a problem finding parts for them. They have a Plinker Plus model that retails at only $599, that I believe is the cheapest quality AR-15 on the market - just a heads up for anyone looking for an AR in the future.

I have been looking at the Glocks and Springfield XD-45. I'm trying to make up my mind on it. I like the Glocks because the mags interchange with the Kel-Tec Sub 2000. But, now I wonder how reliable Sub 2000s are. I like the XD-45 because a compact high cap .45 is definitely interesting.

This is definitely not a cheap hobby. Especially when there are so many nice firearms on the market. I have looked at the Romanian AK's and like them also. I was suprised by how light and compact those were.

Is your AK a Romanian? The one I saw seemed to have some rust or discoloration on the reciever and didn't seem to be of the same quality as the AR's I have seen. I guess we get what we pay for, and $300 for a reliable rifle is a deal no matter how you look at it. I would probably pick up a $100 parts kit, though, so that if there is a ban in the future you would still have a duplicate of all parts in the gun in case it was needed.

I'm still kind of interested in the AKs, but the thing that kills me is the cost of the mags. It seems like a good idea to have a good number of mags stocked, which is a financial burden. Because of this, I have kind of promised myself that I would make my life easier by buying guns that take the same ammo and mags whenever possible. That was my interest in the SU-16, and the reason my Mini-14 has to go. I also have some SKS's that I think are really good value guns. I have never seen a more reliable, heavy duty gun for less than $200. The thing I like about them is that they are top loaded with stripper clips (which cost almost nothing), so to have a case of ammo preloaded and ready for use is not a cost factor. This would be a good companion rifle to an AK.

Hope you like your Glock 17. Give me any feedback you got on it, once you have had a chance to shoot it a bit.

-Magnus

Here are my criteria for choosing a firearm, be it rifle, shotgun or handgun, in order of importance:

#1 ) RELIABILTY -design has a proven track record - & individual gun has been tested
#2 ) Uses commonly available ammo ( i.e., NATO-5.56mm, 7.62mm, COMBLOC- 7.62 X 39mm,/. handguns- 9mm, 38/.357, .40 S&W, .45 ACP
Shotgun -12 or 20 gauge
#3 ) HIGH availabilty of spare parts and accessories.( AR-15, Ruger Mini-14, M1, M-14/M1-A, FN-FAL, AK-47, SKS, handguns -S&W Revolvers, Glocks, Gov't-style .45 ACP's, Browning Hi-Powers, etc. Shotguns -Rem 870, Winchester 1300, Win. model 12, Mossberg 500, and others.

#1 is ALWAYS RELIABILITY -I would rather have a .22 short, single-shot that works every time than the latest super-accessorized, high-powered, high ammo-cap. "glitter gun" that does not work every time.

I'm still kind of interested in the AKs, but the thing that kills me is the cost of the mags.

AK mags can be had for as little as $6-7 used. As long as they aren't completely rusty, they'll work. Pick up a copy of Shotgun News and skim through the ads. You'll see a ton of AK mags for sale and AK mags are cheap compared to AR mags, but even the latter are starting to come down in prices if you do a little digging. AK mags last forever because they're so heavily constructed. Again, comparing to AR mags, they are built like a brick shithouse. AR mags get finicky if you even look at the feed lips crosseyed. However, AK mags are the only place I would suggest going the bargain-basement route. The mag is a weak link in the AR system (the other big one being the direct gas-impingement system) and if you cheap out on the mags, it will bite you. Get good mil-spec mags with the green followers and you won't go wrong, provided you don't bash the hell out of them. As I said, they're getting cheaper, but still more expensive than AKs. Stay away from "USA" mags for the AR. They suck from start to finish. Been there done that. Look at it this way; you're spending several hundreds of dollars on a rifle. Compared to that, $150 for a half-dozen (which is about all you need, though more is nice) mil-spec thirty rounders isn't that much. If you have to, save up slowly and I'll repeat, avoid the temptation to cheap out on the mags.

what type of info do you want on the glock 17? I have one and have had little to no problems. I just recently put over 500 rounds through it. The only problem that I had was that after 250 rounds I had to let the gun cool down, but that happens with most if not all gun when a large number of rounds are shot. I would recomend this pistol over all the others that I have shot.