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Abzug Hoffman
June 1st, 2006, 12:30 PM
Is this a trick of the Jews???

Ancient Greek Book To Published

By NICHOLAS PAPHITIS, Associated Press Writer

ATHENS, Greece - A collection of charred scraps kept in a Greek museum's storerooms are all that remains of what archaeologists say is Europe's oldest surviving book — which may hold a key to understanding early monotheistic beliefs.

More than four decades after the Derveni papyrus was found in a 2,400-year-old nobleman's grave in northern Greece, researchers said Thursday they are close to uncovering new text — through high-tech digital analysis — from the blackened fragments left after the manuscript was burnt on its owner's funeral pyre.

Large sections of the mid-4th century B.C. book — a philosophical treatise on ancient religion — were read years ago, but never officially published.

Now, archaeologist Polyxeni Veleni believes U.S. imaging and scanning techniques used to decipher the Judas Gospel — which portrays Judas not as a sinister betrayer but as Jesus' confidant — will considerably expand and clarify that text.

"I believe some 10-20 percent of new text will be added, which however will be of crucial importance," said Veleni, director of the Thessaloniki Archaeological Museum, where the manuscript is kept.

"This will fill in many gaps, we will get a better understanding of the sequence and the existing text will become more complete," Veleni told The Associated Press.

The scroll, originally several yards of papyrus rolled around two wooden runners, was found half burnt in 1962. It dates to around 340 B.C., during the reign of Philip II of Macedon, father of Alexander the Great.

"It is the oldest surviving book, if you can use that word for a scroll, in western tradition," Veleni said. "This was a unique find, of exceptional importance."

Greek philosophy expert Apostolos Pierris said the text may be a century older.

"It was probably written by somebody from the circle of the philosopher Anaxagoras, in the second half of the 5th century B.C.," he said.

Anaxagoras, who lived in ancient Athens, is thought to have been the teacher of Socrates and was accused by his contemporaries of atheism.

Last month, experts from Brigham Young University in Utah used multi-spectral digital analysis to create enhanced pictures of the text, which will be studied by Oxford University papyrologist Dirk Obbink and Pierris, and published by the end of 2007.

"We were now able to read even the most carbonized sections, as there were pieces that were completely blackened and nobody could make out whether there were letters on them," Veleni said.

The scroll contains a philosophical treatise on a lost poem describing the birth of the gods [!?!!] and other beliefs focusing on Orpheus, the mythical musician who visited the underworld to reclaim his dead love and enjoyed a strong cult following in the ancient world.

The Orpheus cult raised the notion of a single creator god — as opposed to the multitude of deities the ancient Greeks believed in — and influenced later monotheistic faiths.

"In a way, it was a precursor of Christianity," Pierris said. "Orphism believed that man's salvation depended on his knowledge of the truth."

Veleni said the manuscript "will help show the influence of Orphism on later monotheistic religions."

The Derveni grave, about five miles northwest of Thessaloniki, was part of a rich cemetery belonging to the ancient city of Lete.

"It belonged to a very rich man, a Macedonian nobleman, warrior and athlete who had a lot of very important and valuable artifacts in his grave," Veleni said. Finds included metal vases, a gold wreath and weapons.

Abzug Hoffman
June 1st, 2006, 12:40 PM
From Wikipedia: The most famous story in which he figures is that of his wife Eurydice. Eurydice is sometimes known as Agriope. While fleeing from Aristaeus, she was bitten by a serpent which brought her to her death. Distraught, Orpheus played such sad songs and sang so mournfully that all the nymphs and gods wept and gave him advice. Orpheus went down to the lower world and by his music softened the hearts of Hades and Persephone (the only person to ever do so), who agreed to allow Eurydice to return with him to earth. But the condition was attached that he should walk in front of her and not look back until he had reached the upper world. In his anxiety he broke his promise, and Eurydice vanished again from his sight. The story in this form belongs to the time of Virgil, who first introduces the name of Aristaeus. Other ancient writers, however, speak of Orpheus' visit to the underworld; according to Plato, the infernal gods only “presented an apparition” of Eurydice to him. Ovid says that Eurydice's death was not caused by fleeing from Aristaeus but by dancing with Naiads on her wedding day.

The famous story of Eurydice may actually be a late addition to the Orpheus myths. In particular, the name Eurudike ("she whose justice extends widely") recalls cult-titles attached to Persephone. The myth may have been mistakenly derived from another Orpheus legend in which he travels to Tartarus and charms the goddess Hecate.

Angle
June 2nd, 2006, 08:54 AM
Orphism dates back to at least 600BC. The oddest thing about antiquity is the preponderance of strange and stupid cults.

Herman van Houten
June 2nd, 2006, 09:15 AM
Read the translation here:

http://persephones.250free.com/derveni-trans.html

Abzug Hoffman
June 2nd, 2006, 05:56 PM
Anyone can see that any Christian author of old (not a Zionist judeo-Christian "Rabbi Yashuah" bastard) picking over the Bible and explaining what it means makes loads more sense than this pagan and his Orphic cult.

Christianity is so far above this pitiful religion it ain't funny!

Abzug Hoffman
June 2nd, 2006, 06:07 PM
If this is the same book the article mentions - I fail to see how a mother god, Moira, getting torn by a phallic god of some sort - Zeus? - and giving birth to everything suggests a single creator. It suggests a Holy Family to me. And anyway, isn't Orpheus the God of this cult? He appears to be a man that became a God, if they call that monotheism I'd like to see the dictionary they used!

FranzJoseph
June 2nd, 2006, 06:35 PM
The manuscript is a mess.

Easier to read Moby Dick which Melville came right out and said was an Orphic allegory. The white whale is the hebrew god yahweh, the bad guy. The descent of Orpheus is Captain Ahab. Etc.

You cannot use texts like this to figure out what the Orphics believed because it was a Mystery School. It was designed to throw off the people not ready for initiation. Whatever an outsider can read will be disinformation until the key (what means what) is provided. That's why cults like this were all called "gnostic", in this case meaning the knowledge you need to unravel the riddles.

G. I. Gurdjieff (spelling of his name varies) used to throw off his unserious students with malarky like "Humans are really food for the Moon." His was a Christian Mystery School, and Gurdjieff's nameday is still celebrated on the Russian Orthodox calender.

So even Christian Mystery Schools use the same devices as the ancients for certain things. For writing a great deal wilder than Orpheus, try Gurtjieff's Beelzebub's Tales To His Grandson. Spooky and wonderful. I think my affinity for it is that it was published the year I was born, 1950.

Angle
June 2nd, 2006, 08:12 PM
Orpheus refused to worship any god but Apollo (god of the sun). That's where monotheism comes in.

FranzJoseph
June 3rd, 2006, 01:32 AM
The Orphic hymn to Nemesis is especially appealing. She was lifted from the Egyptian goddess of justice Ma'at, but is probably more familiar to us as the Blind Lady Justice we see in most American courthouses.

Hymn to Nemesis (Ma'at)
http://www.sibyllineorder.org/images/in_divider.gif
Nemesis I call,
Almighty Queen
whose piercing sight sees all the deeds of mortals,
Eternal and much revered.
who alone judges the deeds of mortals.

Wise counselor,
who changes the course of the human heart,
forever transforming,
working without rest.

Every mortal knows Your influence,
men groan beneath the weight of Your righteous chains.

You know the thoughts in every mind,
and the soul ruled by lawless lust,
unwilling to obey reason, is judged by You.

Divine Equity,
Yours is the power to see and hear and rule.

Come, Holy Goddess, and listen to my prayer,
and take these mystics under Your protection.

Far avert form us,
Oh Nemesis,
dire and hostile impious counsels, arrogant and base.

And give us beneficent aid in our hour of need,
And abundant strength lend to our powers of reason.

Aryan Lord
June 3rd, 2006, 01:56 AM
Orphism dates back to at least 600BC. The oddest thing about antiquity is the preponderance of strange and stupid cults.

And how exactly does that differ from today?:rolleyes:

Aryan Lord
June 3rd, 2006, 01:59 AM
Anyone can see that any Christian author of old (not a Zionist judeo-Christian "Rabbi Yashuah" bastard) picking over the Bible and explaining what it means makes loads more sense than this pagan and his Orphic cult.

Christianity is so far above this pitiful religion it ain't funny!

In what way is the submission to a vengeful,bloodthirsty and psychotic Semitic `god` with a long history of mental illness who condemns people to everlasting torments a more superior belief system to any of our authentic Aryan beliefs and spiritualities?

FranzJoseph
June 3rd, 2006, 02:02 AM
And how exactly does that differ from today?:rolleyes:

It don't. The really dumbest cult actually started around 600 BC. Yahweh the Mighty Hebe who preferred sheep to girls. It's been downhill ever since.

Aryan Lord
June 3rd, 2006, 02:04 AM
It don't. The really dumbest cult actually started around 600 BC. Yahweh the Mighty Hebe who preferred sheep to girls. It's been downhill ever since.

Absolutely.:D

Abzug Hoffman
June 4th, 2006, 09:40 AM
In what way is the submission to a vengeful,bloodthirsty and psychotic Semitic `god` with a long history of mental illness who condemns people to everlasting torments a more superior belief system to any of our authentic Aryan beliefs and spiritualities?


Condemns BAD people to everlasting torments. Actually, they condemn themselves! It's hardly God's fault. Christians were tougher, that's why they had the scariest hell. The scariest hell MADE them tougher. Now nobody believes in hell and look what has happened.

Being fed to crocodiles or burned up quickly in a pit, whatever happened in pagan hell was too merciful, that's all there is to it. But some of those Greeks had to suffer eternal tortures in hell, at least the heathens had that part right.

Aryan Lord
June 4th, 2006, 09:52 AM
Condemns BAD people to everlasting torments. Actually, they condemn themselves! It's hardly God's fault. Christians were tougher, that's why they had the scariest hell. The scariest hell MADE them tougher. Now nobody believes in hell and look what has happened.

Being fed to crocodiles or burned up quickly in a pit, whatever happened in pagan hell was too merciful, that's all there is to it. But some of those Greeks had to suffer eternal tortures in hell, at least the heathens had that part right.

But Abzug who is `god` to condemn anyone? One only has to look at his track record in the Old Testament to realise that he is a nut job.He commits acts of genocide and murders people when he has a flash of uncontrollable temper and expects people to worship him.I would say that by any standards he is mentally ill.
Secondly are all those billions of people throughout the world and throughout the ages to be condemned,not because they were `bad`[whatever that means] but because they never heard the `gospel`?
If he truly `loved` mankind he would not have waited thousands of years to send his `saviour`! Clearly he is a sadistic bastard and a Jewish one at that!
Aryan man requires no `saviour` for he has commited no `sin` because he has no `commandments` to keep.God dwells within our blood.

Abzug Hoffman
June 4th, 2006, 01:56 PM
Aryan man requires no `saviour` for he has commited no `sin` because he has no `commandments` to keep.God dwells within our blood.

If you have no commandments to keep, neither do you have any right or wrong, any law and order or cultural heritage to transmit. Your grandfather would probably be the first to tell you, you belong to the same 'culture' as the monkeys and the pigs. No wonder you can't understand the concept of God! You have blood, but something is missing from you.

Aryan Lord
June 4th, 2006, 02:31 PM
If you have no commandments to keep, neither do you have any right or wrong, any law and order or cultural heritage to transmit. Your grandfather would probably be the first to tell you, you belong to the same 'culture' as the monkeys and the pigs. No wonder you can't understand the concept of God! You have blood, but something is missing from you.


You go ahead and keep the commandments of your Moses and serve your Jewish `god` but I as an Aryan require no Jew to tell me what is `right` and `what` is wrong just as I need no book of Hebrew fairytales to guide me.
I have heard and answered the call of the blood and the gods dwell in me as they do in any awakened Aryan.
That is something that you patently cannot and will not understand.

Abzug Hoffman
June 5th, 2006, 11:10 AM
You go ahead and keep the commandments of your Moses and serve your Jewish `god` but I as an Aryan require no Jew to tell me what is `right` and `what` is wrong just as I need no book of Hebrew fairytales to guide me.
I have heard and answered the call of the blood and the gods dwell in me as they do in any awakened Aryan.
That is something that you patently cannot and will not understand.


Well, you go ahead and join your pitiful little tribe, and learn your nature worship and be like a red or black man, maybe yellow. I hear the red men like to sit around and take drugs and go beautiful places in the sky, the Home of the Sun or the East Wind or something, and there's a beautful girl up there, too, and they have loads of fun adventures inside their heads in the old wigwam. To those who say this sounds like fairy tales, oh how little you know!