If you carry a handgun concealed -what is overall best choice -a snubby revolver, or a small auto -say in .32 or .380 caliber?
I like the flatness and compactness of the small auto myself..what are the advantages, if any of a revolver?

I'd go with the .38 snub. Revolvers are inherintly more reliable.

32s and 380s are women's guns man. I assume that you are not female. Neither of them is really powerful enough. Snub nosed guns are for women also.

Revolvers are less likely to jam, require less maintenance and do not leave empty cases. They have a longer barrel in a gun of the same length. However they have too low capacity and are too slow to reload. If one is left handed one has to change hands to reload them. They are less well-balanced, they 'hang forward' in the hand due to their shape, and they have a heavier trigger pull. With a few exceptions they cannot be effectively silenced. They are bulky. I recommend a 9mm semi-automatic, or if you insist on a revolver then a .357.

http://www.bondarms.com/ifirearms.htm

How about a .410 derringer?

They call it a snakeslayer, but I'm sure a double barrelled helping of double ought will work just fine for human snakes.

32s and 380s are women's guns man. I assume that you are not female. Neither of them is really powerful enough. Snub nosed guns are for women also.

Revolvers are less likely to jam, require less maintenance and do not leave empty cases. They have a longer barrel in a gun of the same length. However they have too low capacity and are too slow to reload. If one is left handed one has to change hands to reload them. They are less well-balanced, they 'hang forward' in the hand due to their shape, and they have a heavier trigger pull. With a few exceptions they cannot be effectively silenced. They are bulky. I recommend a 9mm semi-automatic, or if you insist on a revolver then a .357.

Listen to people who know what their talking about here-Charles apparently does.

I've carried a concealed weapon for 40 years and here's the low down.

32/380= real waste of time- dangerous trash,38=maybe you'll survive,maybe not.9MM better than 38 but not by much.Wheel gun or auto-Charles already covered that.

My choice is a Glock 45-packs a hit to make sure YOU survive,and enough ammo the make up for any mistakes you might make, if any.Sure it's a bit heavy,but you get use to it soon, and you'll be damn glad you did when the shit hit the fan.

Don't worry unnecessarily about concealment.I carried a Colt 45/1911 for years and years everywhere, and nobody ever noticed anything.

The real secret of carrying a gun is actually knowing how to use it; and practice ,practice ,practice.Shoot it at least once or twice a month or more for a couple of hundred rounds in a variety of distances,lighting and weather.

I've shot it out with more than a few bad guys and live to bury all of them;mainly because of "mussel memory" .I was use to drawing and shooting in seconds, without aiming or thinking,just reaction.Almost all of the gang bangers I had trouble with had all kinds of super guns and bullets and crap but no real knowledge or ability to actually get the job done.

If you carry a gun; you certainly better know damn well how to use it, and use it better than most.

My personal choice is for the auto.

Don't take the 9mm bashers too seriously. Contrary to popular (though horribly misinformed) belief, the .45 is NOT some magical round that will produce one shot stops. To be honest, ALL pistol rounds pretty much suck as manstoppers. But if you use modern hollowpoints from one of the brand name companies, you'll be fine, so long as you do your part by practicing regularly so you can place those rounds where they'll count.

Virtually all of the modern hollow point offerings, regardless of 9mm, .40, or .45, expand to just about the same width in the target, and penetrate damn near the same amount. 9mm practice ammo is cheap, meaning more range time for the money, meaning you'll be able to get better with less money if you want to. .40 is nearly half again as expensive as 9mm, and .45 is nearly twice the cost, depending on where you go.

Go to a gun forum and ask this question, as well. www.thefiringline.com and www.thehighroad.com are both great sites.

After doing your homework on this, you should consider going to a range that rents guns and renting whatever you're interested in. Shoot them all, take notes, and just go with whatever feels right. If it doesn't feel right to you, it probably isn't.

At any rate, kudos for deciding to carry concealed. It's more than about 99% of the current crop of neutered White sheep are willing to do to protect themselves.

Those automatics are just to small. I don’t think 45 is the way to go since he is looking for a small easily concealable gun. If you have small hands a good Taurus 38 special with hollow points will give you all the knockdown you need. They are cheap, small, reliable and reasonably accurate. With a concealed gun you are not going to go to a competition shoot and hit targets at 100 yards. Also contrary to science fiction all robbers are not wearing $2,000 worth of Kevlar and can bench-press a Toyota. When the bullets start flying people will scatter. 99% of the time if you use a concealed weapon it will be within 10 feet. I can assure you getting hit with a 38 special hollow point (even the cheap Wal-mart stuff) will turn your attacker the other way. Get a hammerless gun that can handle +P ammunition. Purchase a good home defense load and it will give you the knockdown.

If you do want superior knockdown in a small weapon and have the money go buy a Glock in the 45 gap caliber. These can be purchased in small, medium to large frame. If you have large hands you may want to go with the medium frame. Snag free, easy to conceal and reliable. Sure it may cost you around $500 for a new one but if it saves your life could you put a price on that? Many people pay that much every month to 6 months for health or life insurance.

If you have a Glock you can use if for concealed personal-defense, target practice and home defense.

If you have some extra money get a Glock, if you are on a tight budget get a hammerless Taurus 38 special and a box of self defense loads.

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http://www.gunblast.com/Glock37.htm

What would be a good small firearm for women to carry? I am sure that the women who read this forum and are interested in self-defense would appreciate some information in this area.

In addition to all the previous advice, I'd like to add that you can finder smaller versions of most of the standard service pistols in real calibers (9mm/40S&W/45ACP/357SIG) , and in some cases they are equal in size and lighter than small pistols like the Walther PPK. The SIG Sauer P239 is small and very easy to shoot, and can be found in all of the above, excluding .45. The smaller Glocks are all excellent as well. But remember to get the pistol that fits your hand the best.

Also, I have read that with modern ballistics tecnology, 9mm/40/45 perform almost identically, on testing gelatin at least.

ETA: The Browning Hi-Power is a very shootable pistol that also carries well because of the slim frame and relatively short grip. It's chambered in 9mm and is well worth checking out.

what are the advantages, if any of a revolver?

If you have a misfire with a revolver just pull the triger again;
with an auto you will have to eject the defect round by hand.

It depends upon your proficiency with semi-autos. If you're not that familiar with them you might want to get a .38, because if you have an auto and get a stovepipe or failure to feed or something and you don't know the drill, you're in trouble. It takes some work to become proficient with semi-autos on your own.

There are some good loads in .38, like Glasers which are very effective. The old 158-grain semi-wadcutter hollowpoint in +P is good, or some of those wazoo +P hollow points--can't remember which.

I don't think I'd want to risk it with just five or six rounds though.

There used to be a 2-inch in .44 cal that Charter Arms made. I'm sure Son of Sparta remembers.

Yeah, if anyone has a .32, make sure you use regular hard ball, because at least they'll penetrate. This has been studied before. .32 hollow points don't penetrate for shit. If I had to defend myself with a .32 I'd empty the clip.

Anyway, there are plenty of good little 9mm autos now.

I'd recommend a trusty S & W 38 Special. I think the average gun battle is around 3 or 4 rounds, so a 15 round clip isn't a big plus unless you subscribe to the "pray and spray" method. Automatics are fun to shoot but as far as betting my life on one, no thanks.

Nobody wants to comment on the .410 shotshell derringer, helloooo?

I can comment on my BOND ARMS derringer. The Cowboy model w/no trigger guard. It is chambered for the 410 and 45 cal long colt. Not alot of grip to hold on to, but it's a very reliable, easy to conceal powerhouse. I generally keep two slugs in it. A 2 and a half inch shell in a 3 inch barrel. Nasty. I'm glad I haven't had to fire it in anger. I loaded it up with 45 long magnums once, it stung my hand so bad I was dancing, then everyone at the range had to try it. Once was enough.

If you are going to do that why not get a 44 special by Taurus? It will shoot shot shells, which are equal to a 410, and you can shoot five instead of two. Also you can shoot regular ammunition. It is small and easy to conceal and handles great without the added recoil most small guns pack. It is good on double taps.

Nobody wants to comment on the .410 shotshell derringer, helloooo?

Or you could buy a good Taurus. About 95% of the quality (in some cases better and you don’t support S&W’s anti-American policies). It also has a warranty that is better than S&W’s. Only parts are warranted with S&W, however parts and labor are warranted with Taurus.
I'd recommend a trusty S & W 38 Special.

The derringer is much easier to conceal than a revolver. Also, I have never seen a .44 sp shotshell, .44 mag yes, but never a .44 sp. That being said the .410 can also fire slugs and buckshot. I used to carry a .410/.45 derringer under my carseat as an anti-nigger device. One barrel I kept loaded with the buck, the other with a slug.

But a nice .44 revolver can't be beat for serious work. A 1911 in .45 ACP is also a good choice. No need to spray and pray if you can hit what you aim at.

If you carry a handgun concealed -what is overall best choice -a snubby revolver, or a small auto -say in .32 or .380 caliber?
I like the flatness and compactness of the small auto myself..what are the advantages, if any of a revolver?

Easy to reload with a bag of bullets. No need for preloaded clips. Cheaper, with fewer moving parts and easier to clean.

And a lot better to play Russian Roulette with.

Wal-Mart sells them in CCI they are listed as 44 Mag/Sp shotshells. Like the 38/357, you can shoot them in either gun.

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The derringer is much easier to conceal than a revolver. Also, I have never seen a .44 sp shotshell, .44 mag yes, but never a .44 sp.

Only thing with those, it is little better than birdshot. Sure you might put an eye out but you are not going to have any stopping power at all. I would guess they are about a size 7 or 8 shot. Which is a quail, dove, skeet shot.

I know this may not be a problem to some people here but in the sticks shotshells are great for snakes and such. Especially if you work around older houses like I do you run across the occasional rat and they kill with the first shot and don’t do any damage or go to far.

A good Glaser round is nice if you want the shotshell type.


I just saw you are in Kentucky also. Shotshells should be good for you as well.


Only thing with those, it is little better than birdshot. Sure you might put an eye out but you are not going to have any stopping power at all. I would guess they are about a size 7 or 8 shot. Which is a quail, dove, skeet shot.

A good Glaser round is nice if you want the shotshell type.


Glaser is actually a bullet, a very lethal one, not to be confused with a shotshell, a totally different animal.

A Glaser is a hollow jacket filled with snakeshot.

Duh, we were talking about over penetration. However at 10 feet snake shot to the face will stop your attacker. No VNNF’er would pursue a random attack if their prey sprayed them with snakeshot.

Random attackers don’t have a personal vendetta that they are trying to pursue so they want to attack and leave without harm. If you fire a weapon 9 times out of 10 that is enough to stop an attacker. If you fire in a populated area you will run the risk of shooting an unintended victim.


Here is something you should consider also. If you carry an auto over a revolver you can’t shoot shotshells. Also I have heard that Glasers don’t cycle well either. I know there is some VNNF’er who has the perfect gun that cycles every round, but the people I know say automatics don’t cycle Glasers.



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Glaser is actually a bullet, a very lethal one, not to be confused with a shotshell, a totally different animal.

A Glaser is a hollow jacket filled with snakeshot.

Duh, we were talking about over penetration. However at 10 feet snake shot to the face will stop your attacker. No VNNF’er would pursue a random attack if their prey sprayed them with snakeshot.


Duh? Glasers don't over-penetrate. That's part of the reason they're called Safety Slugs. They essentially don't ricochet either.

Why in the FUCK would anyone use snakeshot on a human?

They don’t penetrate body armor either, which is what hordes of thugs on PCP are wearing while carrying HK 308’s when they attack someone at random. :rolleyes:
Duh? Glasers don't over-penetrate. That's part of the reason they're called Safety Slugs. They essentially don't ricochet either.

Why would anyone want to use snakeshot on a snake?:confused:

Snakes eat bugs and rats.
Why in the would anyone use snakeshot on a human?

If you are a woman, you need to understand that many perpetrators will not be impressed by the gun in your hand. They will think that you do not have the courage to use it. They may even laugh and taunt you as they "call your bluff" before they lunge at you. My advice is to think now what the intentions are of any one breaking into your home. Think now of what they would do to yourself and/or your children if they get their hands on you. Robbery? If someone is breaking and entering to rob you while you are home, they have no intention of letting any witnesses live through it. Never doubt this. Make up your mind now that if this ever happens, you will shoot to kill. No hesitation, no internal debates. Just aim and pull the trigger. And do not take for granted that just because they are down they are out. Keep your gun trained on them from a safe distance. Yell at the children to get out of the house and run for help. Think of your children and in your coldest voice tell the son of a bitch if he moves he is dead. Set your mind to this now, and then if the time ever comes you won't even think about it. You will do what needs to be done. Never ever feel remorse for having to shoot someone who is intent on doing major harm to you and/or your children. The son of a bitch has no right. Never forget that.

I don't think we're talking about a strictly home defense gun here. More concealed carry.

That said, why in the hell WOULD anyone want to rely on snake shot to stop a human? Has anyone thought that maybe, just maybe, some crazed or drunk or stoned criminal might become ENRAGED at being shot by something that will do little more than agitate him?

All reputable sources on the issue advise using pistol rounds that get at least 12 INCHES of penetration and expands reliably. Any modern, brand name hollowpoint will fit the bill here. Most reputable sources on the subject dismiss snake shot as next to useless.

As for overpenetration, by the time a hollowpoint has expanded and is done popping out the backside of your attacker, I doubt it will have much force to do any serious harm to someone beyond. If you are cheap, though, and don't get a hollowpoint that still expands despite clothing, you could be screwed.

I saw that in a movie also it is funny. Do you think a random attacker will stand there and be shot while still coming? Only a nutcase would think people get wound up on drugs and go out attacking, if they got their drugs they have what they want. If they are hitting you up for drug money they are hurting and don’t want to be hurt anymore. When you fire a gun an attacker will run. Turn off Jewvision and get back to reality.

Wait this is the internet, I am sure someone here has been assaulted by a gang of Negroes and had to shoot their 110 round ak and they still kept coming.
Has anyone thought that maybe, just maybe, some crazed or drunk or stoned criminal might become ENRAGED at being shot by something that will do little more than agitate him?

Then they refer you to a gun or round in which they have stock. Don’t believe anything the gun mags write because they get paid to write what makes the most money, not what gives you bang for your buck.
All reputable sources on the issue advise using pistol rounds that get at least 12 INCHES of penetration and expands reliably.

Most, actually 100% of the gun magazine reputable sources dismiss the Phoenix Arms gun as a waste of money and time. They will claim it is worthless. However there is an article online about a man who bought a cheap one and fired it 1,000 times in the space of 2 days without malfunction. My cousin owned a gun store and he sold them for $39.00 each. I personally know 4 people who bought them and I was one of them. Not a single one jammed, misfired or was off center. They functioned flawlessly.

Take your advice from people with actual experience and not gun nuts that think I you don’t own an $800 pistol you are wasting your money.

Sometimes gun nuts remind me of High School peer pressure. Kids would buy $300 Negro shoes when my $12.00 sneakers gave me the same service.

I get so sick of listening to people quote gun magazines like the authors know what they are talking about. They are paid to write what makes money. If not they would praise cheap surplus and many cheaper guns such as Norinco and such.


Would I rather have a Glock over a Raven? Sure, could I get a Glock on a budget of $40.00? No.
Most reputable sources on the subject dismiss snake shot as next to useless.

A reliable gun for $39.00?

Yes, the Raven by Phoenix Arms is a reliable 25 auto that sells for around $39.00 (in 1998 I don’t know the current price of such a gun). The one that I owned shot without flaw. I never had a single misfire and it was accurate to about 25 feet, which is great for a pocket pistol. It was smooth, hammerless and had a reliable safety. I bought a Lorcin at the same time and it was worthless. However the Raven was an excellent gun.

Of course I wouldn’t say it would equal a Glock or an S&W, however you couldn’t find either of the latter for $39 either.

My mom bought a set of them consecutively numbered and she loved them. My best friend bought one after I talked him into it and he said he never had a misfire or hang.

The man I bought them from (my cousin) owned a gun store and he had about 10 of them and he said he never had a single misfire even after firing several hundred rounds though a couple of them in a day or so.

If you are on a budget and need some protection that is an excellent weapon, however if you have the scratch get a Glock. Even if you have a Glock it is a nice weapon to have around for $39.00.

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A reliable gun for $39.00?

Keep in mind I am talking about a quick reliable gun for under $50. I am not saying it is the best or the end all be all, however if you have a $50 laying around I can’t think of a better value gun wise.






Make: Phoenix Arms Model: HP22 Action: Single Action Caliber: .22 LR
Rating:
Review: I think the HP22 is a great, affordable 22 pistol. Ive shot thousands of rounds thru mine, with only one problem. The magazine release came loose after about 3000 rounds. I contacted the manufacturer, explained the problem, they said they could send me the part, or send the gun in for repairs. I was very happy to see that they were willing to send out the part. I didnt like the idea of spending $35 to ship, to get a $3 part replaced. Plus I perfer to work on my guns myself. But what I liked most about this pistol is that its an affordable alternative to any of the other target 22s out there. You do get what you pay for. But I feel like Ive gotten a lot more than what I paid for with this pistol. I have several friends with some big name manufacturers 22s, and have plenty of problems with them. Which by the way every one of them spent more than double what I paid for the HP22. If your one of the people here complaining about yours, just let me know how much you want for it.

Make: Phoenix Arms Model: HP22A Action: Single Action Caliber: .22
Rating:
Review: My wife and I attended a gun show in the midwest where we were introduced to the Phoenix Arms HP22A with a 5" barrel. She owns a scoped Browning Buckmark and wanted an inexpensive, non-scoped pistol to enjoy on the range. We purchased the HP22A went to the range. The weapon is small and my wife weighs 110 pounds at 5' 3" so it fit her hand perfectly. We fired 200 rounds with one malfunction that could be classed as a weapon fault. The extracted casing hung up in the slide. A quick, short rack of the slide and she was shooting again. Two or three other malfunctions were shooter related. Accuracy was not that good at 25 yards but she was on the target 80% of the time. The double safety was not a problem as we did not use the fire-block safety on the range. She had no complaints about the trigger pull and pronounced it as a "sweet shooting gun" although rounds 9 and 10 are a little tough to load in the magazine, especially with small fingers. She finally took to loading only eight rounds. I, however, ad a major problem with the dis-assembly and re-assembly after cleaning. The slide spring tends to bend on re-assembly. I finally had to cut a small thin piece of plastic to insert above the spring to hold it in place while assembling the barrel to the frame and then pulling the plastic strip out as the barrel is seated. I used this piece of plastic after 10 tries to assemble and once went looking for the spring after it launched itself across the room. She loves the piece and would recommend it for any of the ladies just starting to enjoy shooting.

Make: Phoenix Arms Model: Raven Action: Single Action Caliber: .25
Rating:
Review: I have 2 Raven .25 that I bought together for $90.Both guns were new unfired in the box.Both guns had bad feeding and stovepiping with UMC,WIN,FED so I tossed them in a draw .A few weeks latter a friend bought a new Beretta 21a .25 on my advice and was having feeding problems like my Ravens.I switched the mag from my .25 Beretta and the gun worked fine."Ah ha! "I said as I ordered a cheap pack of 10 raven mags .I manually worked the guns with the new mags till I found the 2 mags I needed.Went out to shoot 30 rounds from one gun and 20 rounds from the other without a hitch.What was a surprise was the accuracy of these Ravens at 30 feet .Now I have a car and a office gun both have a safety.Good deal.

Make: Phoenix Arms Model: hp22 Action: Single Action Caliber: .22 LR
Rating:
Review: Never had a problem with this gun. Well over 1000 rounds and one jam due to somebody elses limp rist (stove pipe). Would have gave it a 5 star but field stripping is a pain. Great plinking gun!
http://www.handgunreview.com/make.asp?make=Phoenix%20Arms


Lorcin L-22:

"Some of our shooters liked the way the Lorcin L-22 felt in the hand, but we wouldn't pay any amount of money for a gun that self-destructs in a couple of hundred rounds. Stay away from this one."
May 1996


Phoenix Arms HP-22:

"Our shooters didn't like that Phoenix Arms HP-22's magazine interlock, and it was a pain in the butt to reassemble. But, due to its steel construction and reliable functioning, we do think it is worth considering as an inexpensive plinker."
May 1996

Lorcin L-25:
"The Lorcin L-25's best attribute was that it didn't bite the shooter's hand. Though adequate in most areas, feeding problems and inferior accuracy prevents us from recommending it."
June 1993


Phoenix Arms Raven:

"For a gun of this type, the Phoenix Arms Raven isn't bad. The malfunctions we encountered were well within a pistol's normal break-in period, and its overall performance was acceptable for its intended use. Its durability will be limited due to its alloy construction, but for less than $75 that's to be expected."
February 1993


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/more/rating.html

Those automatics are just to small. I don’t think 45 is the way to go since he is looking for a small easily concealable gun. If you have small hands a good Taurus 38 special with hollow points will give you all the knockdown you need. They are cheap, small, reliable and reasonably accurate. With a concealed gun you are not going to go to a competition shoot and hit targets at 100 yards. Also contrary to science fiction all robbers are not wearing $2,000 worth of Kevlar and can bench-press a Toyota. When the bullets start flying people will scatter. 99% of the time if you use a concealed weapon it will be within 10 feet. I can assure you getting hit with a 38 special hollow point (even the cheap Wal-mart stuff) will turn your attacker the other way. Get a hammerless gun that can handle +P ammunition. Purchase a good home defense load and it will give you the knockdown.

If you do want superior knockdown in a small weapon and have the money go buy a Glock in the 45 gap caliber. These can be purchased in small, medium to large frame. If you have large hands you may want to go with the medium frame. Snag free, easy to conceal and reliable. Sure it may cost you around $500 for a new one but if it saves your life could you put a price on that? Many people pay that much every month to 6 months for health or life insurance.

If you have a Glock you can use if for concealed personal-defense, target practice and home defense.

If you have some extra money get a Glock, if you are on a tight budget get a hammerless Taurus 38 special and a box of self defense loads.


http://www.gunblast.com/Glock37.htm

I was with my brother today when he traded in his glock 40 for a hamerless ruger 357 sunbbed nose, he was torn between the Taurus and Ruger 357. The Ruger is an awesome gun and very conceable, the reason my brother made the trade is because the glock 40 is too bulky and hard to conceal in the summer, but he did have good words to say about the glock 40. The Ruger was selling in the high 400 range the Taurus was in the lower 400, if things go right in the next few weeks I think I might get the Taurus, does that seem like a reasonable price for it?

If I bought a Taurus I would shoot as many rounds as I could afford though it and that way if something was going to break it would be at the range and I could get the problem fixed before it mattered. Get it fixed for free on the range then had a guaranteed reliable gun when it counts.

I was in a gun store this week and they had a Taurus Stainless 41 magnum for $369 snub nose, and a Taurus 38 (5 shot) snub nose revolver blued steel for $199. They had a 44 special snub nose stainless and 5 shot for $399. All of these were good deals, that should give you an idea.

For some reason 357 caliber is more expensive. In Ashland they said a medium frame Glock in the 40 caliber will run $500 out the door new. Glocks are rare trade ins around here. You are lucky to see a used Glock once a year and then they are $475 or more. So far in 2006 I have seen one used Glock in the desert camo, it was the compact size and it was $475. No one around here trades them in. They trade S&W’s all the time though. I saw two S&W medium frame stainless 9mm’s 15 round for $325 each today. I probably could have gotten them both for $600 plus tax but didn’t have the money or need for them.

I like Taurus and they have an excellent lifetime warranty. Even if you buy the gun used they will replace a part if it is a factory defect.

Depending on location, here S&W is king and so is Ruger. However no one likes a Taurus so the used ones are usually cheap. Ruger is a good gun and I have no complaints about how well they function, but in my opinion they cost to much. You can find an S&W or a Taurus that is identical to whichever Ruger for about 20-30% less.

The Ruger has a nice 22 target pistols, however the Browning version of it is superior and about half the price. That is the way with most Ruger guns. The only Ruger guns you get the best value for the money (again in my opinion) is the Redhawk or the blackhawk. I haven’t seen anyone match them for quality and price combined.

This is just me, but if I were to purchase a ruger those would be the only two guns I would purchase.

Taurus on the other hand produces fine weapons for fair prices and I have never know of anyone that has owned one that has had anything but praise for both the quality and price.


That is the rundown on used and new gun prices in Ashland. Don’t even ask about Princeton, I wouldn’t finance my house to buy a gun there. The last gun store I visited didn’t have anything under $400 and nothing I would pay over $150 for.


I was with my brother today when he traded in his glock 40 for a hamerless ruger 357 sunbbed nose, he was torn between the Taurus and Ruger 357. The Ruger is an awesome gun and very conceable, the reason my brother made the trade is because the glock 40 is too bulky and hard to conceal in the summer, but he did have good words to say about the glock 40.

The Ruger was selling in the high 400 range the Taurus was in the lower 400, if things go right in the next few weeks I think I might get the Taurus, does that seem like a reasonable price for it?

I think that gun battles use a lot of rounds. Also shotgun shells lack accuracy, range, penetration and power at distance. Snub nosed pistols also lack accuracy and power.

I'm going to do something I don't usually do and agree with Doc Martin.

The Phoenix Arms Raven .25 is a very reliable pistol. I own one and it has shot every round I put into it without fail, both FMJ and HP. I paid $55 for mine, which is probably too much, but I don't regret it.

That said, I would NEVER depend upon my Raven as a primary weapon. I carry it ONLY as a last ditch backup to my primary firearm, which is usaully a Glock 26 9mm or S&W 99 .40cal. The .25 round is too weak.

Yes, I agree but for the money (on a budget) it is a quick gun to get until a person can do better. And of course in a life or death situation it is better than nothing.


On your S&W 99 how is the trigger pull? I saw one in a pawnshop last week and it had a really difficult trigger pull. It was so stiff it was almost like the trigger was jammed or something.




That said, I would NEVER depend upon my Raven as a primary weapon. I carry it ONLY as a last ditch backup to my primary firearm, which is usaully a Glock 26 9mm or S&W 99 .40cal. The .25 round is too weak.

On your S&W 99 how is the trigger pull? I saw one in a pawnshop last week and it had a really difficult trigger pull. It was so stiff it was almost like the trigger was jammed or something.
Mine is the compact S&W 99, not the 990 or similar models. It is the mini licensed copy of the Walther P99. It is double action on the first shot (with a decocker) and single action on subsequent shots. The DA trigger pull is equivalent to most common revolvers, and the SA pull is less than 1 pound (my estimate). If the trigger pull DA is excessive then the gun may need repair.

Duh? Glasers don't over-penetrate. That's part of the reason they're called Safety Slugs. They essentially don't ricochet either.

Why in the FUCK would anyone use snakeshot on a human?

I for one am very curious as to how a carjacker might react to a face full of snakeshot. I find the image amusing.

Shit in... shit out. It may not be the gun.

http://www.ruagammotecusa.com/brands.cfm


Ammo is like a Hallmark card... when you REALLY care, send THEM the very best!

Either can be useful. The .38 snubby or .32/380 ACP you have with you is better than the .500 S&W you left at home. ANY hole you put into an attacker is better than wishing you had a gun! Personally I carry an auto, but have also USED a small revolver to defend my life, so I an speaking from personal experience, not wishful thinking.

The snake shot is not much good past ten feet for ANY use, but at very close range (car jacking) a face full MIGHT be useful to blind your attacker. Depends on if you are that cool, that accurate, that skilled. Don't kid yourself, 99.9% of the people out there are not, including the ones here. Plus if you are caught and it got out you intended to maim your attacker "for fun", you will be in prison so fast you won't believe it.

Think you are God's gift to gunning? Go to your local IPSC/IDPA shoot and try it. Can you pull the gun from the holster and get six aimed shots off in three seconds or less? I can and I'm not all that fast. Yes, with an electric timer and hands over my head. Alot of shooters go to pieces when being timed and watched, but "if they were on the street they would kick butt!!" Yeah, right. You can't handle the pressure of being watched and timed, but fighting for your life makes you better under pressure? Pardon me while I laugh.

ALL guns can jam, Glocks, revolvers, etc. If you think YOUR gun can't jam, it just means you don't shoot enough. I personally have seen three Glocks blow up. When Glock blow, they are completely trashed. When a 1911 blows (I had one do so while I was shooting it, probably a high primer) NOTHING was serious damaged! After knocking what was left of the case out of the barrel, I continued to shoot. Does this mean the 1911 is better than the Glock? Of course! Does this mean you should get rid of your Glock and get a 1911? Of course not! Wait until the Glock breaks (if you shoot it, it will) and THEN buy a 1911! Why don't Glock owners know any good gunsmiths? Because when a Glock breaks, they buy a 1911.

OK, only SLIGHTLY kidding!! If you like Glocks, than carry a Glock, but don't buy into the BS that Glocks are the end all and be all of handguns that so many Glockheads claim. They DO break. When they break it WILL be a pain to detail strip and get parts for. When they blow, they are normally completely trashed. They can't handle lead (the polygonal rifling will clog and then the pressures build until the gun explodes) so you have to use only jacketed ammo, which makes it less than optimal for survival/back country/out of country use that some of us subject our guns too and you use what you can get, or do with out. YMMV.

Summery:
The gun you have WITH YOU is better than the gun you left at home.

Use the best FACTORY hollow point/Glazer/defensive ammo you can get, not snake shot.

If it was made by humans it WILL break, at the worst possible moment of course.

PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE! Join your local ISPC/IDPA/shooting club and LEARN!

Buy a quality holster to carry your gun, not some piece of floppy crap.

BUY AMMO! RELOAD! With the demonrats getting in and the price of copper/zinc/lead going sky high, there has never been a better time to learn to reload and stockpile all you can of powder, primers, cartridge cases, as well as loaded ammo. It isn't going to get less expensive and may get banned competely.

If you think the idea of ammo getting banned is far fetched, just look at the ammo bans introduced by the deamonrats already. The Commie-fornia $1 per bullet tax bill (just think what that will do to a box of .22s!), the serial number all cases and bullets bills, the powder trace tag bills, primers that go bad after a few months/years bills, the UN ammo bans.

Hope this helps.

I for one am very curious as to how a carjacker might react to a face full of snakeshot. I find the image amusing.

Christ, man! No way.

Snakeshot if for snakes. Why carry some useless little thing like that when your life is at stake?

I would prefer something you can attach a silencer to.

I would prefer something you can attach a silencer to.
...:rolleyes:

.380 two-tone by Hi-Point. Load it up with hydra-shocks and its the cheapest, most dependable pistol you can pack in small-caliber. I've owned three, had three stolen and didn't hurt in the wallet for it. First time I was out $60 +ammo, second $100 and the third was around $90. I think they hover at the $130 mark now though. Hi-point is a good brand except I wouldn't waste my time on the carbine. Its a decend trunk gun but I mean, its a 9mm carbine...I weapon I've never understood.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/164198_thumb.jpg

I'm in the process of getting a gun permit. In jersey, it takes 4 to 6 weeks.

I'm looking for 357 magnum, either short barrel or a long one which is for accuracy and distance. Still though, the price range has triple in a decade.
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&productId=14797&tabselected=buynow&parent_category_rn=&isFirearm=Y
Price: $830.00 *

*Suggested Retail, Dealer Sets Actual Pricing

http://www.haguesgunrange.com/sales/handguns/sw/m629.jpg

or this one:629 Classic (.44 Magnum/.44
S&W Special)

Have you considered Taurus? They are about half the price of a S&W and from what I have seen the same quality or better. I have never known of a Taurus to misfire. I know they are made in Brazil but S&W has cut American gun consumers throats so many times that I would rather buy Chinese guns than support those wretches.

Personally I would get an Air-weight hammerless in the Taurus, for the money and the feel it can’t be beat. Pick one up someday and you will see.

One advantage of the 357 is you can plink with cheap 38’s while 44 special ammo costs more than 44 magnum ammo (at least here).


http://www.guntechinc.com/H_605SS.jpg
Taurus 605, 357 Mag ($375.00)

Compare

http://www.guntechinc.com/637.JPG
S&W 637, 38 SPL ($425.00)

http://airbornecombatengineer.typepad.com/photos/weapons_fireams/taurusti357mag651sh2c.jpg

http://www.impactguns.com/store/media/taurus/taurus_444_rgbull_8.jpg

The 44 Colt Anaconda was quite an impressive shot for me, but the problem with it is it takes a lot of training to really draw it quick and not miss the silhouette.

Long barrels are more accurate at longer ranges so I stay away from snub nose types.

The good ol' .45 acp is my fav. Fits the needs all around, imo. Excellent sidearm.

thanks for the tip, ya'll


I need to look into best suitable firearm I’m comfortable with. I want a pistol that stops the target dead on with one bullet while still have cartridges .

I was just talking to my neighbor, and he's getting a firearm too. He said, ghettos gangs have guns, why can’t I?... Good for him- Were locked and load!

The best gun is the one you have one you. The 45 acp just never impressed me at all. I like the 40 S&W much better, shot side by side the 40 outperformed the 45 like daylight and dark.

One huge problem with the 45 (unless you have the new thousand dollar Kimber) is the ability to conceal it. Unless one walks around in 100 degree weather with a coat on to hide said 45 I just don’t see carrying one concealed very easy.

A good mini-glock in the 40 S&W or a 38 airweight is all anyone would ever need in a real world situation. Provided he or she can shoot. If you hit your target with a 38 +P or 40 S&W I guarantee they won’t still walk towards you. The iron clad California bank robbers are not people we see everyday or every decade.



The good ol' .45 acp is my fav. Fits the needs all around, imo. Excellent sidearm.

This is personal preference here, but I wouldn't get a Glock smaller than a Glock 23. The 'subcompact' guns from Glock really hamper your ability to hold the gun properly and get satisfactory accuracy, especially 'under stress' when you already have enough shit to worry about.

If I had to pick between either a subcompact Glock 40 or a 38 snubby, I'd pick the 38 every time. It also has the added benefit of a 'point and click' interface that helps if there happens to be a misfire.

Any reviews on the Bersa 380? I'm looking for a gun for a woman. Please, no comments about loads or how it's a "mouse" gun, just anyone that has had experience with it or knows anyone that does. I know what to load it with, thank you.

Bersa has improved their quality control immensely since the late 80s. The reports that I am hearing are positive, across the board. They are much lighter than pistols of similar size and type (Makarov, Walther), and they are accurate.

As long as the user understands the limitations of the 9mm kurz, I would not hesitate to recommend a Bersa. The only downside is that magazines are phenomenally expensive! Spare factory mags are forty bucks! Don't be tempted by the cheaper ProMags, though- they are not sufficiently durable and dependable.

The best carry gun is one you can hit the target with. If you're not comfortable with heavy recoil, then a .22LR is better that a .45ACP. While I definitely think the Colt 1911A1 is the finest carry handgun in existence, a Ruger MkII is an excellent choice for a less experienced shooter. Six or eight long rifles into the chest cavity will dissuade even the most resolute car jacker.

http://www.geocities.com/xavierbreath2/RugerMKII4inchBullBarrel.jpg

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/6811/glock26mainql7.jpg

For a womans conceal carry I like the glock 26. 9mm holding 10 rounds
It is very small and is only a little over 6oz when loaded. It fits a womans small hands nicely.

9mm is a small enough round to give light recoil. Again, the best firearm is one that you can hit the target with, but if it is so big or heavy you leave it at home its worse than missing your target.

http://www.glockworld.com/glock_subcompact.htm
stats here

Okay ... I'm trying to decide what gun I want for Christmas ... I have a few that I have picked out .... and I want pearl grips ;-/

So which one should I get --

http://san1.atlanta.gbhinc.com/GB/085678000/85678474/pix50997750.jpg
Taurus 85

http://san1.atlanta.gbhinc.com/GB/085255000/85255654/pix1373474171.jpg
Colt Mustang 380 --- I REALLY like this one

http://san1.atlanta.gbhinc.com/GB/085372000/85372191/pix1521689953.jpg
Bersa Thunder 380

http://san1.atlanta.gbhinc.com/GB/085570000/85570551/pix1728116796.jpg
S&W Lady Smith

I'd say get the Colt. It and the Smith will hold value better than the others, and Colt autoloaders are a smooth joy to shoot.

You should narrow the field down to a few based on caliber, style and aesthetics. (it looks like you have) then fire them all at the range. What fits best in your hand, what has a recoil you can live with, price, what are you most accurate with and what will suit your needs the best for your intended use.

I would rank them on all that, plus more on a 1-10 scale to find your best compromise.

Hmmm I really want that Colt 380 .... :cool:

Do some damage bwaharhahar ... :rolleyes:

Okay ... I'm trying to decide what gun I want for Christmas ... I have a few that I have picked out .... and I want pearl grips ;-/

So which one should I get --


I would say get the Taurus but not the one you pictured. Here are my reasons. They are cheap, accurate, reliable, durable, and have an excellent warranty that exists to the lifetime of the gun not just the owner. This means you can buy a used Taurus and if it hasn’t been beaten with a hammer you can send it back to the factory for free repairs.

Unlike S&W, which holds value, Taurus is actually increasing in value. You may buy a new one now, keep it for a couple years and actually get more than you paid for it if you decide to sell it.

Now why I say not the one you pictured. Rubber grips are better if not as pretty as pearl grips. It is to fancy for a carry gun, you should get an airweight which is durable and makes a great carry gun. They feel like a few quarters in your pocket and if you have something heavy you won’t be carrying it. For a female the airweight is the best way to go. And remember just because something feels good in your hands in the gun shop doesn’t mean it is going to feel good in your pocket 12 hours a day. get a gun you would carry.

If you carry a handgun concealed -what is overall best choice -a snubby revolver, or a small auto -say in .32 or .380 caliber?
I like the flatness and compactness of the small auto myself..what are the advantages, if any of a revolver?

For up close and personal, a revolver is best every time.
A revolver will never jam and .38 special has killing power.
You can also leave a revolver loaded for long periods of time without having to worry about spring compression in the magazine.
There will also be no spent brass at the scene, which gives the ZOG troopers less physical evidence to work on.
.32 in auto has less hitting power than a .22. Look it up. .32 and .25 are useless calibres.
The smallest self-loading pistol calibre to consider is 9mm, but that is significantly inferior to .38.
A pistol is not an offensive weapon.
It is something you draw to either (a) kill yourself to prevent capture, or (b) as a weapon of last resort at close quarters.
In such situations, reliability and killing power are the primary considerations.
Go for a .38 with the longest barrel you think is appropriate to your concealment situation. The longer the barrel the more time the powder spends burning behind the projectile, so the more killing power it has.

For up close and personal, a revolver is best every time.
A revolver will never jam and .38 special has killing power.
You can also leave a revolver loaded for long periods of time without having to worry about spring compression in the magazine.
There will also be no spent brass at the scene, which gives the ZOG troopers less physical evidence to work on.
.32 in auto has less hitting power than a .22. Look it up. .32 and .25 are useless calibres.
The smallest self-loading pistol calibre to consider is 9mm, but that is significantly inferior to .38.
A pistol is not an offensive weapon.
It is something you draw to either (a) kill yourself to prevent capture, or (b) as a weapon of last resort at close quarters.
In such situations, reliability and killing power are the primary considerations.
Go for a .38 with the longest barrel you think is appropriate to your concealment situation. The longer the barrel the more time the powder spends burning behind the projectile, so the more killing power it has.

Why are .25 and .32 worse than 38 special?
What about .380/9mmkurz?
Why is 9mm worse than .38?

You said look it up but most gun sites do not have reliable and truthful information.

Also if the magazine spring is compressed for long periods of time(magazine full for a long time) will it weaken and fail.

9x19mm is not "worse than .38". In it's best loadings it ranks alongside the better .40 and .45s.

Why are .25 and .32 worse than 38 special?
What about .380/9mmkurz?
Why is 9mm worse than .38?

You said look it up but most gun sites do not have reliable and truthful information.

Also if the magazine spring is compressed for long periods of time(magazine full for a long time) will it weaken and fail.

.25 and .32 are have very small projectiles with little powder behind them. A .38 is larger with much more stopping power.

You cant always tell by the diameter of the projectile, for instance .223 is what is used in ar15/m16 but you know it is superior to a .25 which has a larger diameter bullet.

Also if the magazine spring is compressed for long periods of time(magazine full for a long time) will it weaken and fail.

Spring cycling (loading and unloading) is what weakens springs. I have had pistol and rifle magazines loaded for several years with no failures.

One extreme case was my fathers 1911, he lost a magazine...found it in a closet with some ammo...the spring had been compressed for at least 20 years. The magazine and the ammo worked fine.

TwistedCross nailed the question about ammo, it is about powder...how much velocity a projectile can acheive with the amount of propellant (gunpowder).

The 9mm has a smaller case..it can only hold so much powder, and the bullet sizes are limited. A .38 can hold more powder and handle a heavier bullet. Same with the .32 and .25...small cases = small amount of powder. They work and work well. but if you have a choice and can handle the recoil of a heavier round I would go for it.

All that being said...I have on occasion carried a "pocket .25" (small colt), usually in the summertime. I practice with it regularly and use hollowpoints....is it my first choice? NO but it serves its purpose.

I made a mistake in my previous question,

Let me repeat it.

Why are .25 and .32 worse than .22lr?
What about .380/9mmkurz?

I made a mistake in my previous question,

Let me repeat it.

Why are .25 and .32 worse than .22lr?
What about .380/9mmkurz?

Actually a 25 auto has an advantage over a 22lr, which is why they are still being made and are popular. They have a centerfire primer instead of a rimfire primer, which makes them more reliable. They also have a larger diameter bullet. They do have less penetration but unless a person is being attacked by zombies or a group of bikers that plan to fight to the last breath, I don’t see someone continuing the fight amidst a hail of 25 auto bullets bouncing off his skull.

The fact is a lot of people get killed with very small caliber weapons. A 25 auto while underpowered will likely be on your person. Also a lot of kwaps carry a 380 for a backup gun. I think the 380 is the most useless caliber ever made but it is popular with a lot of people.

There is a huge misconception about carry guns. The most important thing is you have a gun on your person. Unless you are entering drug covens or expecting swat to nail you on the street any caliber gun will stop any assault you encounter. People think you need a gun that will be able to reach out 50-100 feet. The fact is if the attacker is more than 5-10 feet from you then you will go to prison. If you can’t hit someone at 5-10 feet with a small caliber or a snub nose weapon then you don’t need a gun in the first place.



Also when it comes to penetration, I took a 25-auto pocket pistol out once and shot a 2x4 at 21 feet. Not only did I hit the 2x4 but every round fully penetrated it. If you can hit a 2x4 you can hit a person. If the round will penetrate a 2x4 it will penetrate a person as well.

Actually a 25 auto has an advantage over a 22lr, which is why they are still being made and are popular. They have a centerfire primer instead of a rimfire primer, which makes them more reliable. They also have a larger diameter bullet. They do have less penetration but unless a person is being attacked by zombies or a group of bikers that plan to fight to the last breath, I don’t see someone continuing the fight amidst a hail of 25 auto bullets bouncing off his skull.

The fact is a lot of people get killed with very small caliber weapons. A 25 auto while underpowered will likely be on your person. Also a lot of kwaps carry a 380 for a backup gun. I think the 380 is the most useless caliber ever made but it is popular with a lot of people.

There is a huge misconception about carry guns. The most important thing is you have a gun on your person. Unless you are entering drug covens or expecting swat to nail you on the street any caliber gun will stop any assault you encounter. People think you need a gun that will be able to reach out 50-100 feet. The fact is if the attacker is more than 5-10 feet from you then you will go to prison. If you can’t hit someone at 5-10 feet with a small caliber or a snub nose weapon then you don’t need a gun in the first place.



Also when it comes to penetration, I took a 25-auto pocket pistol out once and shot a 2x4 at 21 feet. Not only did I hit the 2x4 but every round fully penetrated it. If you can hit a 2x4 you can hit a person. If the round will penetrate a 2x4 it will penetrate a person as well.

Ok so the .25acp has less penetration than the .22 but it is bigger right?
What about the .32? It is bigger and has more penetration than both the .22 and .25 right?

Why is the .380 the most useless round? What round should be used instead to do its purpose better?

Ok so the .25acp has less penetration than the .22 but it is bigger right?
What about the .32? It is bigger and has more penetration than both the .22 and .25 right?
The 32 is bigger but I wouldn’t say for sure it has more penetration than a 22lr. Also the advantage of a 22lr over both 32 and 25 is cost, availability and Varity. There are many different types of 22lr’s rounds but there is only a handful of 25’s and 32’s and both are difficult to come by these days. I think the only gun store around here that carries 32’s has to special order them.

Why is the .380 the most useless round? What round should be used instead to do its purpose better?
I don’t like it. Cost is one thing. I guess like the 45 auto it is a personal thing. For a backup gun it is good but I think there are better calibers such as the 9x19 and the 9x18. They make some nice pocket 9x19’s these days. I carried a $32 25 auto Raven for years and it never failed me. Also it was always on my person. The only thing I didn’t like about it was it didn’t have a hammer so I couldn’t carry it chambered. Dad’s had a hammer that could be safely carried chambered and at half cock, that is the gun he carried for around 2 decades.

Also on both guns we left the magazines fully loaded and they never failed. Dad still has his 25 auto and the magazine is still fully loaded and it functions flawlessly. I miss the days of $30 nickel plated 25 auto’s.

One of the most important things is availability. You want a cartridge that can be easily found. The top on the list of handgun cartridges is 22lr, 38sp, 9mm & 40 S&W. There may be plenty of others but they will not have the Varity and are not as popular. One of my favorite rounds is the 44spl and I have to drive 60 miles to find a place that stocks it.



Here is a large picture of the 380-32 acp. Click the link.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/07/.380-32_ACP.jpg/799px-.380-32_ACP.jpg


Here you can compare size on handgun rounds.
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/2/2f/400px-Comparitive_handgun_rounds.jpg
Common handgun cartridges. Left to right: 3 inch 12 ga magnum shotgun shell (for comparison), size "AA" battery (for comparison), .454 Casull, .45 Winchester Magnum, .44 Remington Magnum, .357 Magnum, .38 Special, .45 ACP, .38 Super, 9 mm Luger, .32 ACP, .22 LR
http://www.answers.com/topic/list-of-handgun-cartridges

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/9/93/400px-CartridgeComparison.jpg

I made a mistake in my previous question,

Let me repeat it.

Why are .25 and .32 worse than .22lr?
What about .380/9mmkurz?

Get hold of a book called Survival Guns.
It has a table of almost every calibre. The table has a lot of information, which includes the impact energy delivered by each calibre.
In revolvers .44 magnum is the ultimate calibre, but far too large for a concealed carry, so .38 special is a satisfactory compromise.
.25 and .32 are next to useless. Too small, too light, too slow.
9mm has only half the stopping power of .45 ACP.
This is why .45 ACP will go through the front plate of a nigger's skull and kill it with 100% reliability, but 9mm does not have that level of reliability.
9mm will deliver an instant kill only if it strikes heart or brain, unlike .45 ACP which will deliver an instant kill with any torso hit within 25 metres of the muzzle.
Shoot someone with 9mm and the bastard will probably be able to return fire and kill you, even if he is bleeding to death from a lung hit.
.223, for example, delivers only one third of the impact energy to the target that 7.62x51mm provides, which is one of the reasons why the M16/AR15 are fishtank ornaments or mouse guns. I speak from the perspective of a former soldier who has had to fire a weapon in anger.
One of the worst decisions the US military made was to scrap the M14 and adopt the M16 mouse gun.
Another really bad decision was to switch from .45 ACP to 9mm in pistols.
The US military now has rifle and pistol calibres that are not man killers.
This makes a grunt's life really difficult and unnecessarily dangerous.
When a grunt shoots someone he wants to kill the bastard instantly. To do anything else risks the grunt's life because the target may be functional enough to return fire.

I have been reading your posts and I must say your knowledge of guns is straight out of a gun magazine and impeccably terrible. Aren’t guns banned in Australia?

Get hold of a book called Survival Guns.
It has a table of almost every calibre. The table has a lot of information, which includes the impact energy delivered by each calibre.
There are much better books, get one on reloading or the like they show not only different calibers but different loads and slugs.

In revolvers .44 magnum is the ultimate calibre, but far too large for a concealed carry, so .38 special is a satisfactory compromise.
So what about the 500S&W, 460 Magnum or the 454? All these dwarf the 44 magnum. The 38 sp with the right load will be more than satisfactory.

.25 and .32 are next to useless. Too small, too light, too slow.
9mm has only half the stopping power of .45 ACP.
Ok then why have so many people been killed with 25 autos? Why have even the most worthless of Negroes been able to kill people with cheap low caliber guns? A 25 auto with plain Wal-Mart ammo will crack through a 2x4 at 21 feet, unless you have a body part that is tougher than a seasoned 2x4 I think it will penetrate any part of a person.

This is why .45 ACP will go through the front plate of a ni--er's skull and kill it with 100% reliability, but 9mm does not have that level of reliability.
so you are saying a person can shoot a 9mm directly into the skull of a Negro and not kill it?

The 45 acp isn’t famous for it’s penetration it is famous for it’s knockdown power meaning it puts a lot of energy into a large space on the target. It is huge and bulky. I have seen you sing the praises of carrying a 45 auto but who does? Even the gun writers that praise it don’t carry it. Cops and feds who can carry a gun in the open don’t carry 45 auto’s for a reason. They are heavy, they can only hold 8+1 rounds, they don’t have penetration, they are not as accurate as newer calibers and they are just not as effective as modern calibers. The 40 S&W will do everything a 45 acp will do and more.

9mm will deliver an instant kill only if it strikes heart or brain, unlike .45 ACP which will deliver an instant kill with any torso hit within 25 metres of the muzzle.
No the 45 caliber will not do all of that. You don’t know the dynamics of getting shot. A person can get shot in the leg and sever an a artery and die within a few seconds of blood loss. If shot in the torso by any gun you can hit the spleen, lung, kidney, intestines, liver or heart. All these hits will stop the average person.

Shoot someone with 9mm and the ------ will probably be able to return fire and kill you, even if he is bleeding to death from a lung hit.
I don’t know what planet you are from but on earth a shot to the lung will put anyone down. People don’t return fire after being hit in the lungs. First of all your lungs fill up with air and blood. Not only do you have the immediate pain but extreme asphyxiation, which comes faster than holding you breath. It is possible to live after being shot in the lungs but I haven’t seen anyone who will keep coming with 9mm hollow points ripping through their lungs.

.223, for example, delivers only one third of the impact energy to the target that 7.62x51mm provides, which is one of the reasons why the M16/AR15 are fishtank ornaments or mouse guns. I speak from the perspective of a former soldier who has had to fire a weapon in anger.
Where are you going to shoot the 7.62? It will over penetrate the target and go through the wall behind it and the kid behind the wall. Also they are usually twice as long as a 223 and twice as heavy. You don’t have a good second shot as the gun climbs out of control on rapid fire. You can’t shoot it in an area with homes or people. It is to heavy to carry and maneuver effectively. You can’t carry a third of the rounds you can with a 223.

There is a reason people went to the 223. It delivers more firepower in short distances where most battles take place. The 7.62 is a great caliber if you are in a hidden place playing the sniper roll but to carry one and face the enemy it is not the best idea which is why those large calibers were abandoned by soldiers.

Just so you know soldiers weren’t forced to take these weapons they begged the military for something better. After they got overrun in Korea while carrying high caliber guns because they couldn’t lay the proper amount of ammo down they asked for something that could put more rounds in more targets.

One of the worst decisions the US military made was to scrap the M14 and adopt the M16 mouse gun.
Have you ever carried an M-14? It is massive compared to the M-16. I can imagine someone trying to maneuver an M-14 in a building or heavily wooded area. Also you would be to worn out from lugging the thing to make effective shots and you could only carry a third of the rounds. This would be great if you faced your enemy from a hilltop at 500 yards but most battles take place at a couple hundred feet where firepower and maneuverability are the key elements.

Another really bad decision was to switch from .45 ACP to 9mm in pistols.
The US military now has rifle and pistol calibres that are not man killers.
This makes a grunt's life really difficult and unnecessarily dangerous.
When a grunt shoots someone he wants to kill the bastard instantly. To do anything else risks the grunt's life because the target may be functional enough to return fire.
Ok again I don’t know what planet you live on but 9mm’s kill and they have killed a lot of people. Get the proper round and they deliver a lot of penetration, knock-down and they will rip apart anyone who gets struck by one.

Also what is the deal with you love for these heavy guns? Who is going carry a 45ACP 1911 around on a hot day? You can’t conceal one easily, they are heavy after a couple hours and everyone I know who has tried to carry one takes it off the first chance they get.

Also Bob Mundon took a 38sp a snub nose and hit a 10-inch balloon at 200 yards. Sure he is extremely above average but if he can make a head shot with a factory gun and ammo at 600 feet surely the average person could do the same at 50 feet. The 38sp or 9mm with the right ammo will penetrate anything you need in a pistol situation. Sure if you have a body armor clad sniper with a 300 Win Mag at 1,000 yards shooting at you any pistol caliber won’t help. But I guarantee a 9mm won’t bounce off anyone’s skull anytime soon.

the M16 is a pray and spray weapon, the M14 is a reach out and touch and is very accruate. It's select fire function was pretty useless because firing the weapon on full auto make it impossible to control. it's a far better sniper gun or a survival gun that can penetrate hiding places than it is when confronting SWAT teams and the like.

In fact, I believe I read once where they shipped in conversion kits to keep the M14 from firing in full auto.

the M16 is a pray and spray weapon,
All guns are pray and spray in the hands of unqualified users. The 223 is an accurate round up to several hundred yards. If a person can’t shoot a larger caliber won’t make a difference.

Here is an example. I can acquire targets with a better group with a $50 Marlin 22 than some people I know (who have been shooting for decades) can with a 30-06. I know how to make a gun accurate and customize it for my own use. What is the point of putting a large bullet downrange in the dirt?

the M14 is a reach out and touch and is very accruate.
Yes it is but for up close combat which is where most combat takes place it doesn’t lay down enough rounds and can’t be controlled in rapid fire (not full auto). You double tap is almost impossible and to maneuver the gun in a building just isn’t going to happen.


it's a far better sniper gun or a survival gun that can penetrate hiding places than it is when confronting SWAT teams and the like.

It is a better sniper weapon but not overall survival weapon. In a survival situation you must be ready for any situation. While the M-14 is great for shooting at long ranges it is not something you want to carry and you can only carry a very limited amount of ammo.

It is unlikely you will engage targets over a couple hundred yards unless you are a sniper waiting for days to hit a certain person. If you are under fire the 223 is a much better weapon as you can hit your target accurately (if you can shoot) and you can lay down enough firepower to engage multiple targets. It has little recoil so firing several times isn’t a problem.

Another reason the M-14 isn’t a good survival gun is because it is easily mucked up in mud, dirt and heavy dust. I have seen people get them muddy and they have failed. I have seen even on the torture test where they dropped on in mud and it failed. The M-16 has a flap that protects the internal parts from mud and dust. The AK well we all know how it performs in all sorts of situations.

What is the deal with people and these huge guns? If you want to shoot someone from a long distance get a 300 Win Mag or a 7mm magnum. Then you can engage targets at over a thousand yards. How about just getting a 50 cal and nail people at 3,000 yards.

There is a reason people don’t do this. It is not practical. The people you idolize in your avatar carry AK-47’s for a reason. They are durable and reasonably accurate at short ranges.

There is a huge misconception about carry guns. The most important thing is you have a gun on your person.

Got that right doc, even a cheap, small caliber weapon, that you can shoot and shoot well, will keep you safe and secure. Nothing wrong with smaller caliber carry weapons....the key is training and shooting your weapon often.

I have seen you sing the praises of carrying a 45 auto but who does?

I do, in Winter time full sized .45, several friends carry the Commander (smaller) sized .45's pretty flat and easy to conceal...although summer time I currently have a 5 shot Taurus .357.
Note: here in PA open carry is legal...I open carry about 1/2 the time.

The best bullet/gun debate is never ending and pretty pointless....Whatever gun you decide to carry, make sure it works...make sure it is reliable, make sure you have good quality ammo...and make DAMN sure you shoot and become proficient at it.

Yes the M16 is an accurate gun but the theory behind it's adoption was that patrol teams would make contact at relatively close range and the more bullets that were fired, the more likely casualities would result. This is why the ammo is so light, so they they can carry so much of it, as it would be needed when spraying and praying.

Got that right doc, even a cheap, small caliber weapon, that you can shoot and shoot well, will keep you safe and secure. Nothing wrong with smaller caliber carry weapons....the key is training and shooting your weapon often.



I do, in Winter time full sized .45, several friends carry the Commander (smaller) sized .45's pretty flat and easy to conceal...although summer time I currently have a 5 shot Taurus .357.
Note: here in PA open carry is legal...I open carry about 1/2 the time.

The best bullet/gun debate is never ending and pretty pointless....Whatever gun you decide to carry, make sure it works...make sure it is reliable, make sure you have good quality ammo...and make DAMN sure you shoot and become proficient at it.

Personally, I would only carry a .45 or a .40 cal for self defense. I had both until the pigs got my Ruger P90. Also, what I so like about the .45 is that it's subsonic right out of the box and a good silencer would make it my weapon of choice on nigger hunting safaris.

45+stopping power+subsonic velocities=one excellent weapon.

the .45 with a good silencer should the the weapon of choice for the discriminating White Nationalist Revolutionary ;)

Why are we even talking about M-14’s in the first place? The question was about 38 snub noses and small autos to carry. Who is going to be carrying around a 4-foot long sniper rifle to restaurants and convenience stores? Apparently the original poster wanted a gun to keep in the pocket not to shoot people at a thousand yards.

This is exactly what I am talking about when I speak of gun nuts, a lot of impractical information. How are you even going to conceal an M-14? What does it even have to do with a carry gun?

How are we on illegal suppressed 45’s? You get caught with one and it is 20 years in Federal Prison. All that should be on another thread.

Ok here is the thing, the majority of people gun writers and citizens alike carry a 38 snubby and for good reason. It is small, carries adequate power and is easy to carry.

Yes in the winter you may carry a 45 but what about in the summer when it is shorts and t-shirts?

I have been reading your posts and I must say your knowledge of guns is straight out of a gun magazine and impeccably terrible. Aren’t guns banned in Australia?
No, they are not.
Modern weapons are, but we are still allowed to possess 19th century technology such as bolt and lever action if the rifles and shooters are licensed.
I have been shooting for 42 years and spent about a decade with the Australian Army, so my knowledge is not out of magazines.
You are obnoxious.

There are much better books, get one on reloading or the like they show not only different calibers but different loads and slugs.
Yes, but a book on reloading will not discuss the merits of different weapons.

So what about the 500S&W, 460 Magnum or the 454? All these dwarf the 44 magnum. The 38 sp with the right load will be more than satisfactory.
Possibly, but they do not exist here in Australia. Those calibres are outside my frame of reference.

Ok then why have so many people been killed with 25 autos? Why have even the most worthless of Negroes been able to kill people with cheap low caliber guns? A 25 auto with plain Wal-Mart ammo will crack through a 2x4 at 21 feet, unless you have a body part that is tougher than a seasoned 2x4 I think it will penetrate any part of a person.
That has not been my experience.
On paper, a .25 has less hitting power than a .22.

so you are saying a person can shoot a 9mm directly into the skull of a Negro and not kill it?
That is correct.
The thickness of the forehead bone of the negro skull has been known to stop 9mm and .38.

The 45 acp isn’t famous for it’s penetration it is famous for it’s knockdown power meaning it puts a lot of energy into a large space on the target. It is huge and bulky. I have seen you sing the praises of carrying a 45 auto but who does? Even the gun writers that praise it don’t carry it. Cops and feds who can carry a gun in the open don’t carry 45 auto’s for a reason. They are heavy, they can only hold 8+1 rounds, they don’t have penetration, they are not as accurate as newer calibers and they are just not as effective as modern calibers. The 40 S&W will do everything a 45 acp will do and more.
The only people here who use 40 S&W are the New South Wales state police.
Licensed pistol shooters here are limited to .38 or smaller. Heaven forbid we might be able to outgun the police.:rofl

No the 45 caliber will not do all of that. You don’t know the dynamics of getting shot. A person can get shot in the leg and sever an a artery and die within a few seconds of blood loss. If shot in the torso by any gun you can hit the spleen, lung, kidney, intestines, liver or heart. All these hits will stop the average person.
Er, I do know the dynamics.
I have fired a few shots in anger courtesy of the army and I know what happens when someone is hit.
Take into account the adrenalin factor.

I don’t know what planet you are from but on earth a shot to the lung will put anyone down. People don’t return fire after being hit in the lungs. First of all your lungs fill up with air and blood. Not only do you have the immediate pain but extreme asphyxiation, which comes faster than holding you breath. It is possible to live after being shot in the lungs but I haven’t seen anyone who will keep coming with 9mm hollow points ripping through their lungs.
I have two good friends who were shot through a lung, continued to fight and are still around to tell the tale.
One was shot in Stalingrad by a 7.62x54 and lost a lung. The other took a 7.62x39 in Vietnam and lost half a lung.
Both continued to fight and the younger of the two did not at first realise that he had been hit.
Adrenalin will do that.

Where are you going to shoot the 7.62? It will over penetrate the target and go through the wall behind it and the kid behind the wall. Also they are usually twice as long as a 223 and twice as heavy. You don’t have a good second shot as the gun climbs out of control on rapid fire. You can’t shoot it in an area with homes or people. It is to heavy to carry and maneuver effectively. You can’t carry a third of the rounds you can with a 223.
YOu appear to have no combat experience whatsoever. If you did, you would not say such things.
You also indulge in the American stupidity of putting a weapon on automatic and spraying like an undisciplined nigger gangster, then wondering WTF you run of ammunition.
A well-trained infantry rifleman works on the basis of one shot one kill.
Every round you fire has to be replaced by the supply system. A supply system can be disrupted and you become vulnerable while being resupplied.
Ammunition should be expended sparingly, very sparingly.
That is one of the signs of a well trained and well disciplined soldier.

There is a reason people went to the 223. It delivers more firepower in short distances where most battles take place. The 7.62 is a great caliber if you are in a hidden place playing the sniper roll but to carry one and face the enemy it is not the best idea which is why those large calibers were abandoned by soldiers.

.223 is not a man killer.
I know people who have put multiple 5.56mm rounds into men and watched them keep on running.
I had the good fortune to use an FN FAL L1A1, so I did not have to worry about whether or not my rounds would kill.

Just so you know soldiers weren’t forced to take these weapons they begged the military for something better. After they got overrun in Korea while carrying high caliber guns because they couldn’t lay the proper amount of ammo down they asked for something that could put more rounds in more targets.

Really!
I suppose that would be why US soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq are begging and screaming for the army to take M14s out of mothballs?
Take a look at the news wire pix sometime. There are plenty of M14s turning up over there and the word is that US soldiers are screaming for M14s to replace their mouse guns.

Have you ever carried an M-14? It is massive compared to the M-16. I can imagine someone trying to maneuver an M-14 in a building or heavily wooded area. Also you would be to worn out from lugging the thing to make effective shots and you could only carry a third of the rounds. This would be great if you faced your enemy from a hilltop at 500 yards but most battles take place at a couple hundred feet where firepower and maneuverability are the key elements.

No, I carried an FN FAL L1A1. I believe that it is about the same weight, perhaps slightly heavier.
If your weapon is too heavy, you are not fit enough.
If you cannot conduct minor infantry tactics such as fire and movement with a real rifle then you are not well enough trained and you are not fit enough.

Ok again I don’t know what planet you live on but 9mm’s kill and they have killed a lot of people. Get the proper round and they deliver a lot of penetration, knock-down and they will rip apart anyone who gets struck by one.
Yes they have and they do, but not on a reliable basis.
A 9mm MIGHT kill you. A .45 WILL kill you.

Also what is the deal with you love for these heavy guns? Who is going carry a 45ACP 1911 around on a hot day? You can’t conceal one easily, they are heavy after a couple hours and everyone I know who has tried to carry one takes it off the first chance they get.

Because I insist on a weapon that will do the job, which is to kill the enemy with the first shot.
Anyone who thinks that a Colt or an M14 is 'too heavy' is not up to combat fitness.
After a couple of days in the bush with a 40kg pack, an FN rifle, a spare belt for the M60, perhaps a claymore or a spare battery for the radio the rifle should be as light as a twig.
In my regiment even the girls in the HQ support staff had no difficulty handling an FN rifle, or an M60 in the bush.
Are you saying that they are fitter and stronger than you?

Also Bob Mundon took a 38sp a snub nose and hit a 10-inch balloon at 200 yards. Sure he is extremely above average but if he can make a head shot with a factory gun and ammo at 600 feet surely the average person could do the same at 50 feet. The 38sp or 9mm with the right ammo will penetrate anything you need in a pistol situation. Sure if you have a body armor clad sniper with a 300 Win Mag at 1,000 yards shooting at you any pistol caliber won’t help. But I guarantee a 9mm won’t bounce off anyone’s skull anytime soon.

Frankly, I am surprised that (a) a .38 round travelled 200 metres and that (b) it hit a target smaller than the USS Kittyhawk.
Anyone who tries for a head shot at anything more than point blank range is an idiot. Pumped full of adrenalin you will be shaking like a leaf and unable to aim accurately. Shoot for the largest target, the torso.
People who like to show how clever they are by going for difficult headshots at range will end up dead.

Pumped full of adrenalin you will be shaking like a leaf and unable to aim accurately. Shoot for the largest target, the torso.
People who like to show how clever they are by going for difficult headshots at range will end up dead.

Here you contradict everything about the one shot one kill. Under fire a person can’t leisurely take the time to aim precisely and make shots. You are walking patrol and all of the sudden gunfire breaks out. A person will not be singing somewhere over the rainbow while they take careful aim and acquire the target.

Also large calibers don’t function well in sand and mud. But no one is talking about sniper rifles or walking the beat in the military, we are talking about carrying a pistol in your pocket in public places. The 45 acp is not good for this as the only to conceal one is in the winter and if you have to take off your coat the gun is exposed.

The original poster wants to know about carrying small caliber weapons. I am sure with an M-14 you will defeat someone carrying a 38sp. But if the M-14 is in the trunk of the car or in a safe at home the 38sp will be victorious every time. I don’t know of anyone who carries an M-14 into the Kwicky mart.

Here you contradict everything about the one shot one kill. Under fire a person can’t leisurely take the time to aim precisely and make shots. You are walking patrol and all of the sudden gunfire breaks out. A person will not be singing somewhere over the rainbow while they take careful aim and acquire the target.

A well trained and disciplined soldier will still do a fair job of it.
I was referring specifically to a civilian on a street pulling out a pistol to save their life.
Shoot for centre of mass. Anything else is suicidal folly.

Also large calibers don’t function well in sand and mud. But no one is talking about sniper rifles or walking the beat in the military, we are talking about carrying a pistol in your pocket in public places. The 45 acp is not good for this as the only to conceal one is in the winter and if you have to take off your coat the gun is exposed.

I have spent a lot of time in the bush with an FN rifle and I have never, ever, got mud or dirt in it.
Perish the thought!
That is a sign of a poorly trained soldier.
I agree with you about .45 being too big for concealed carry, if one is referring to a Colt.
There are, however, smaller .45 pistols.
For such situations I prefer a revolver, so I would carry either a .38 or better a .357 with the heaviest projectile I could arrange.
A revolver will not jam and .38 or .357 will kill. If you need the 17 shots (or whatever it is) in the magazine of one of those dreadful 9mm Glocks you are dead meat anyway.
The number of police here in Australia who have shot themselves in the feet with Glocks is pitiful.:krofl

The original poster wants to know about carrying small caliber weapons. I am sure with an M-14 you will defeat someone carrying a 38sp. But if the M-14 is in the trunk of the car or in a safe at home the 38sp will be victorious every time. I don’t know of anyone who carries an M-14 into the Kwicky mart.

True, but it does create a wonderful mental picture.:D

YOu appear to have no combat experience whatsoever. If you did, you would not say such things.
You also indulge in the American stupidity of putting a weapon on automatic and spraying like an undisciplined nigger gangster, then wondering WTF you run of ammunition

Derrick, besides what you may see on TV or in news sources, full auto weapons don't exist here in the states for the masses. There are a few hundred thousand or so legally owned full auto ...and require special licensing/fees. The prices of the legal full auto weapons are through the roof and out of reach for the average shooter.

The best we can get are semi-auto versions of battle and assault rifles. So fire discipline with your semi-auto is the norm for any serious rifleman.

I too am a fan myself of the .308 (7.62 Nato) round and I have several civilian (semi-auto only) FAL rifles. But that is for a different discussion...we are talking about handguns here for personal defense.

Yes in the winter you may carry a 45 but what about in the summer when it is shorts and t-shirts?

Doc, you must have missed the second sentence, in summer when the clothing is lighter I routinely carry a 5 shot Taurus .357...almost the same size as a .38. Real nice carry piece btw.

Doc, you must have missed the second sentence, in summer when the clothing is lighter I routinely carry a 5 shot Taurus .357...almost the same size as a .38. Real nice carry piece btw.
I did, good choice. Of course anyone reading any of my gun posts here will know what a huge fan of Taurus I am.

About 9mm’s bouncing off the heads of Negroes I would have to see several stories to back that up. Sure there is probably an urban legend floating around, contact Ripley’s for all sorts of strange survival shots.

I do know from experience that a 22lr will drop a 700-pound hog with one shot. That is through the skull. I also know that it will drop a calf with one shot and this is a calf that can smash a car door with it’s skull. I don’t think some darkie is going to deflect a 9mm.

About taking a lung shot and still fighting, adrenaline won’t do that. They taser people who are on adrenaline rushes and knock them down.

The tales you are telling can only be found in superhero comic books.

A well trained and disciplined soldier will still do a fair job of it.
So if you are going to be calm and take the right shot then it doesn’t matter what caliber you have. Either a person is going to be calm or not. Under actual fire no one is calm except in the movies.

I was referring specifically to a civilian on a street pulling out a pistol to save their life.
Shoot for centre of mass. Anything else is suicidal folly.
Then why bring up an M-14? A gut shot, or even a shot in the leg can swiftly kill. If you are calm then you only need one shot. If you have to aim for center mass and hope for the best then carry a gun that has several rounds.


I have spent a lot of time in the bush with an FN rifle and I have never, ever, got mud or dirt in it.
Perish the thought!
That is a sign of a poorly trained soldier.
Carrying a rifle and actually being in battle crawling through mud in the rain and whatever are two completely different things. I have gotten dust and mud in a rifle while it hung in a gun rack in my truck. Unless you carry a rifle over your head it will get dirty in actual combat.

A revolver will not jam and .38 or .357 will kill. If you need the 17 shots (or whatever it is) in the magazine of one of those dreadful 9mm Glocks you are dead meat anyway.
Revolvers have several things to go wrong and yes they do jam. The cylinder has to cycle and anything that prevents that can be considered a jam. The firing pin can snap as I have seen on S&W’s.

Dave Sveginy (SP?) who just won several world championships did it with an out of the box Glock with a few modifications. He didn’t even have $800 in his gun and he beat people using $3,000 guns. If you tune them up a Glock is just as accurate as any high dollar gun.

The number of police here in Australia who have shot themselves in the feet with Glocks is pitiful.:krofl
There is a vid on VNNF of a Negro fed who shot himself in the foot in front of school children. I never give Kwaps much credit, one of the things is to keep your finger off the trigger of a Glock when it is chambered. Aside from that you can throw a Glock off a building and it won’t fire unless you actually pull the trigger.

Here is something else, a Glock has less moving parts than an average revolver and a lot less to go wrong. They are also more durable to mud, dust, weather and just about anything else you can throw at it.

In my life I have had $800 revolvers malfunction and I have only had 2 automatics malfunction and one of them was a $20 Lorcin.

Your arguments are classic Guns and Ammo arguments.

The anti-Glock argument.

The revolver is more reliable argument.

The high caliber Fal over the 223 argument.

The under power of the 9mm.

People taking shots to the lungs and still fighting.

Let’s not forget the classic 45 acp argument.

All of these things could have been lifted off the pages of Guns and Ammo magazine (I know I have a subscription) by writers paid to promote substandard guns. I have literally read everything you have said in guns and ammo magazine.

If you can’t hit anything with a Glock, an FAL isn’t going to help matters any.

I am not questioning where your heart is in terms of racism but I believe your firearms knowledge is limited to someone who got a subscription to Guns and Ammo and you are just quoting what they say. The arguments you make are so cliché and old.

About 9mm’s bouncing off the heads of Negroes I would have to see several stories to back that up. Sure there is probably an urban legend floating around, contact Ripley’s for all sorts of strange survival shots.

I do know from experience that a 22lr will drop a 700-pound hog with one shot. That is through the skull. I also know that it will drop a calf with one shot and this is a calf that can smash a car door with it’s skull. I don’t think some darkie is going to deflect a 9mm.

Hehehe....

The officers said Tillie came out to the vehicle holding a blue steel 9 mm semi automatic and dropped the weapon when ordered to do so. Officers said they found Alexis huddled on the floor under the steering wheel, covered in blood, surrounded by spent cartridge casings, a spent bullet on the floor and teeth on the seat. There were bullet holes in the windshield and blood inside.

http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071205/METRO/712050396

(Couldn't resist.)

Personally I prefer a hammerless 357 stub nose as a back up weapon or even as a primary weapon. It gives you the availability of choosing both .38 Cal or .357 Loads to fit your preferences and needs. A wheel Gun will rarely ever jam where a semi auto may jam or could jam when needed most. The trade off is lower capacity of ammunition to send down range and a bit of a slower reload time than a Semi-Auto, But the trade off for absolute reliability is the single strength of a Wheel Gun over a Semi-Auto. Thats my .02 Cents on the matter.