This is in response to this thread (http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=5496&page=3&pp=10) in which a "Greek" claims Meds have more testosterone than northern Europeans. The claim is self-evidently false, but since "Ptolemy" attempted to support it with specious reasoning and an appeal to Rushton, I'm responding. I'm not aware of any studies which directly compare testosterone levels across Europe, and I'm not going to attempt to aggregate this data myself. Instead, we'll compare rates of prostate cancer, a proxy for testosterone levels which Rushton himself uses:

Rushton (1989) proposes that the high rate of sexual activity in Negroids as compared with Caucasoids and Mongoloids may suggest that higher rates of testosterone in males may be involved but strong evidence for this hypothesis has not yet been adduced. The crucial supportive evidence lies in the incidence of cancer of the prostate across the three races. It has been known for a number of years that Negroids have higher rates of cancer of the prostate than Caucasoids who in turn have higher rates than Mongoloids. The significance of these racial differences is that an important determinant of cancer of the prostate is the level of testosterone.

It has been shown by Ghanadian, Puah, and O'Donoghue (1979) and Ahluwalia, jackson, and Jones (1981) that there are significantly higher levels of testosterone in patients with prostatic cancer than in healthy controls. Furthermore, the cancer never appears in castrated animals, and it can be treated by castration and by cyproterone, a testosterone blocking agent (Lupulsescu, 1983). The high incidence of prostatic cancer in Negroids therefore indicates a high level of testosterone.

http://www.mugu.com/cgi-bin/Upstream/lynn-testosterone?embedded=yes&cumulative_category_title=Race+and+Ethnicity&cumulative_category_id=Race


Here (http://europa.eu.int/comm/eurostat/Public/datashop/print-product/EN?catalogue=Eurostat&product=KS-08-02-015-__-N-EN&mode=download) is a map showing per capita deaths from prostate cancer in Europe:

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/349/prostatecancer.gif

Based on this data, it appears testosterone levels are highest in Sweden and lowest in Greece. Even if the prostate cancer / testosterone correlation isn't perfect, there is still a very strong trend suggesting testosterone levels are highest in Scandinavia and northwestern Europe, and lowest toward the Mediterranean.

Major screw up man. You just proved Ptolemy right.

You site a dated theory, since then, more info has been accumulated on prostate cancer.

according to the online magazine Prostate Health:

"Every study ever done shows that prostate disease depends on AGE and testosterone falls as we age. In fact, many studies have shown men with prostate diseases have low testosterone levels. But the fact remains that men under 50 rarely have prostate cancer when their testosterone is high, yet nearly all men will end up with prostate cancer in their 70’s when their testosterone is low. The prostate disease rates parallel the fall in testosterone."

"At the Tenous Cancer Research Institute in Wales11 researchers found low testosterone in prostate cancer patients using saliva testing."

"At the Moscow Medical Institute in Russia12 doctors studied the hormone levels of men over 60 and found those with prostate cancer have much lower testosterone levels and higher estrogen levels giving a very low testosterone to estrogen ratio."

http://prostate-health.net/prostate-book-7-androgens.asp

Being both Northern European (German and Irish) and Med (Italian), I'm not very biased towards the Nord/Med thing. I think both groups have their assets and liabilities.

However, I do tend to agree that stereo types tend to be more true than not......

and well, one can draw their own conclusions from that.

[QUOTE=Raphael]Major screw up man. You just proved Ptolemy right.

You site a dated theory, since then, more info has been accumulated on prostate cancer.

according to the online magazine Prostate Health:[/QUOTE]

Shut the fuck up you illiterate greaseball. "Prostate Health" is not an "online magazine". It's a site trying to sell some "Natural Formula" prostate cure. Unless you're into that sort of thing, I assume you found the site by doing a web search like this one (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22testosterone+levels%22+%22prostate+cancer%22&num=100) and ignoring the first 50 or so results. By the way, the first result (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4943564/) from that search is from an actual online news source (a Reuters story via MSNBC):

High testosterone levels linked to prostate risk

WASHINGTON - Men over 50 who have higher levels of testosterone have a higher risk of prostate cancer, U.S. researchers reported Sunday.

I'm not sure having an over-abundance of testosterone is necessarily a good thing. Negro male, if I am not mistake, produce much more testosterone that white males. This probably explains some of the aggressive behavior.

Isn't there an inverse relationship between testosterone and intelligence?

[QUOTE=Jim Crowe]I'm not sure having an over-abundance of testosterone is necessarily a good thing. [/QUOTE]

It has its plusses and minuses. This isn't about whether high testosterone is good or bad. I'm just setting the record straight.

Negro male, if I am not mistake, produce much more testosterone that white males.

Depends on what you mean by "much more". I don't know if Rushton would even describe it like that: I think the differences he claimed for T levels were fairly minor. I've seen at least one study that found no difference, but this isn't an issue I've investigated in depth.

This probably explains some of the aggressive behavior.

Low intelligence and lack of self control probably explain it better.

[QUOTE=western-nationalist]Isn't there an inverse relationship between testosterone and intelligence?[/QUOTE]

Of course not. Certainly not within a race. I assume you're thinking of Rushton's finding that sub-Saharans have high testosterone and low intelligence, and the opposite is true for northeast Asians. But whites don't fall exactly between these two groups on these measures. Whites are probably closer to blacks in testosterone levels, and closer to NE Asians in intelligence.

Within Europe, it so happens that Richard Lynn found that Sweden has one of the highest average IQs in Europe and Greece one of the lowest, so "an inverse relationship" isn't supported at this level. If you have any information showing an inverse relationship at the population level, feel free to present it.

[QUOTE=Charles Davenport]Of course not. Certainly not within a race. I assume you're thinking of Rushton's finding that sub-Saharans have high testosterone and low intelligence, and the opposite is true for northeast Asians. But whites don't fall exactly between these two groups on these measures. Whites are probably closer to blacks in testosterone levels, and closer to NE Asians in intelligence.

Within Europe, it so happens that Richard Lynn found that Sweden has one of the highest average IQs in Europe and Greece one of the lowest, so "an inverse relationship" isn't supported at this level. If you have any information showing an inverse relationship at the population level, feel free to present it.[/QUOTE]

Didn't Italy and Germany have the highest IQ's in Europe? anyway what about Europeans who alpine or central european?. Why is every country north of Italy, Greece and Spain considered "nordic", how about Alpines? , they're never mentioned. How exactly does one determine if a country is nordic anyway?.

[QUOTE=Raphael]Major screw up man. You just proved Ptolemy right.

You site a dated theory, since then, more info has been accumulated on prostate cancer.

according to the online magazine Prostate Health:

"Every study ever done shows that prostate disease depends on AGE and testosterone falls as we age. In fact, many studies have shown men with prostate diseases have low testosterone levels. But the fact remains that men under 50 rarely have prostate cancer when their testosterone is high, yet nearly all men will end up with prostate cancer in their 70’s when their testosterone is low. The prostate disease rates parallel the fall in testosterone."

"At the Tenous Cancer Research Institute in Wales11 researchers found low testosterone in prostate cancer patients using saliva testing."

"At the Moscow Medical Institute in Russia12 doctors studied the hormone levels of men over 60 and found those with prostate cancer have much lower testosterone levels and higher estrogen levels giving a very low testosterone to estrogen ratio."

http://prostate-health.net/prostate-book-7-androgens.asp[/QUOTE]
I'm sceptical about that research: I followed the link and it goes to a company that seems to be peddling anabolic steroids or the equivalent to prevent prostate cancer. Do bodybuilders have lower prostate cancer rates than the general male population?

Well, after reading many of those studies, they all pretty much concluded that no relationship was found to testosterone, or there are certain types of testosterone (there seems to be three types) that effect prostate more than the other.

The prostate study doesn't prove anything.

and why such dated studies??

[QUOTE=Raphael]Being both Northern European (German and Irish) and Med (Italian), I'm not very biased towards the Nord/Med thing. I think both groups have their assets and liabilities.

However, I do tend to agree that stereo types tend to be more true than not......

and well, one can draw their own conclusions from that.[/QUOTE]

But we all know why the Nordic countries have higher prostate cancer rates.

They live longer!!

Remember, women out live men, and since all Nordics are androgynous fems, they live the longest.

Rather be a "Cajun Man" and die happy at 65, than a feminine nordic vegan and die bitter @ 100.

[QUOTE=Ptolemy]But we all know why the Nordic countries have higher prostate cancer rates.

They live longer!!

Remember, women out live men, and since all Nordics are androgynous fems, they live the longest.

Rather be a "Cajun Man" and die happy at 65, than a feminine nordic vegan and die bitter @ 100.[/QUOTE]
LOL.........:D

High levels of testosterone yoked to high IQ, harnessed by self discipline and healthy social relationships, made the White man the golden mean of yesterday.

Today we still have the biologic stuff of success, but the discipline and social relationships are totally screwed up.

So that is what we should focus on rebuilding. We cant make much headway in that without assailing the Jews who are responsible for the state of social degeneration.

Soon if we dont rebuild discipline and society, the biologic stuff we be destroyed as well, never to be regained.

[quote=western-nationalist]How exactly does one determine if a country is nordic anyway?.[/quote]

Because it is in Northern Europe.

Don't start with this Alpine shit now. Cross-subtype racialism's getting to be a joke.

March of the Garden Gnomes: A History of the Alpine Race