http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1078408/Road-death-politician-got-drunk-gay-bar-hours-car-crash--targeted-saboteurs.html

Road-death politician got drunk in a gay bar hours before car crash... and may have been targeted by saboteursBy Daily Mail Reporter

Last updated at 12:58 PM on 17th October 2008


Sabotage: Austrian far-Right leader Jorg Haider died in a car crash last week after being nearly four times over the legal limit Austrian far-Right leader Jorg Haider's car may have been sabotaged before he crashed, it was claimed.
Haider died when his Volkswagen Phaeton veered off the road in the early hours of Saturday morning last week after a boozy celebration party for Austria's right wing leaders.

As throngs of right-wing crowds gathered for his funeral today, makers of the VW Phaeton limo he was driving insist their car is one of the safest in the world and should have survived the crash. VW spokesman Peter Thul claimed that someone with access to Haider’s car key could have manipulated the car’s electrics. The car giants have sent their own experts to examine the wreckage and search for signs it may have been sabotaged.

It has also been revealed that on the day of his death, Haider spent part of his last night drinking in a gay club called ‘Stadtkraemer.’ Police have told Haider's family he had a blood alcohol level of 1.8 pro mille - nearly four times Austria's 0.5 limit. Thul told The Sun: “It is a fact that Haider was going too fast, but such a speed on that curve is not a problem for the car’s physics.
“The Phaeton and Audi A8 are the safest of all. You’d need the key to manipulate the electronics, so someone at a garage

The Stadtkraemer – which translates to The City Shopkeeper – is a well known haunt for the Klagenfurt gay community and advertises itself on the Internet with the slogan: “Whether old or young, lesbian or gay, the restaurant is always cool.”

A fellow diner offered to drive Haider home because he looked the worse for wear, but the 58-year-old governor of the state of Carinthia turned him down.
Haider headed for the notorious gay establishment after his appearance at a night club, the public prosecutor in Klagenfurt confirmed.

He arrived at a quarter past midnight on Saturday morning, left thirty minutes later and was dead within half-an-hour.

Despite being married with two daughters, Haider was “outed” years ago by the Austrian and German press

Talk about something that's MIND BLOWING!!!

How the hell did they keep this shit a secret from the rest of the world all these years ASSUMING it's TRUE???? FAG BARS in the Austrian province of Carinthia???

There was a lady on Rense.com last night that that explained it was A. The City of London that WHACKED HIM (as most have speculated) B. the guys in the other Nationalist Party whose Haider's party is supposed to merge with WHACKED HIM.

Her site loaded with articles about the murder of Jorg Haider:

http://www.rumormillnews.com/

Kikes are very good at disseminating negative propaganda towards their enemies.

I'll need more proof than some jewrag to consider such a possibility for even a second.

The degenerate Kike's hatred knows no limits.

The Daily Mail like I have mentioned I believe two other times was once pro-BUF, pro-National Socialist, and pro-Fascist. Now, it is nothing like it was in the past. You can bet your bottom dollar that this very well could be a lie.

I totally agree. How many books have these Kikes wrote accusing Hitler and the Nazi's of being all Homo's???

But maybe this was the ROOT of the argument between Haider and the younger guy who now runs the Freedom Party and who the Jews are genuinely afraid of.

REMEMBER, Haider stuck a TRAITOROUS JEW in a high position in the Freedom Party that turned out to be Mossad. He did some really stupid things.

It's still VERY VERY WEIRD that this never came out about the guy INTERNATIONALLY until he was assasinated??? The way they are talking in this article, this deal about him being a queer was WIDELY KNOWN in Austria. If it was common knowledge in Austria, WHY are we only hearing about this NOW, around the world, when the guy is laying dead in a BOX???

It's still VERY VERY WEIRD that this never came out about the guy INTERNATIONALLY until he was assasinated??? The way they are talking in this article, this deal about him being a queer was WIDELY KNOWN in Austria. If it was so widely publicized in Austria, WHY are we only hearing about this NOW, around the world, when the guy is laying dead in a BOX???

Because it's all jewshit and Haider would have sued for libel and won.

Filthy kikes.

If true, that may explain why Haider suddenly supported Turkey´s bid to join the EU.
http://vnnforum.com/showpost.php?p=856069&postcount=53 (http://vnnforum.com/showpost.php?p=856069&postcount=53)

Sure doesn't seem like an in the closet HOMO but this thing about the EU is surprising. What kind of European Nationalist would support Turkey into the EU??? This guy had given some mixed signals over the last few years. More info. is certainly going to come out about this.

Thanks for that video.

If true, that may explain why Haider suddenly supported Turkey´s bid to join the EU.
http://vnnforum.com/showpost.php?p=856069&postcount=53


Ugh, first he chooses the jew Sichrovsky as his secretary-general then he supports Turkey's bid to join the EU?

I really should learn to do more research before I go off ranting and raving in someone's defense.

Because it's all jewshit and Haider would have sued for libel and won.

Filthy kikes.

Quite possibly. Its murky. There is an argument though that if you control the opposition as well as the inner party then your rule is safer..

These pictures while he wouldn't be convicted would unsettle a jury of honest men..

http://diepresse.com/home/politik/innenpolitik/347107/index.do?from=rss

The guy sure doesn't look nor act nor speak like a FAG in that video and then you show me those pictures!!! I hate to believe anything that English JEWSPAPER says about the guy but those pictures don't look good.

HEY, I feel most HOMO's are MENTALLY ILL. Supporting Turkey into the EU, if true on Haider's part, IS PURE MENTAL ILLNESS and is not compatable with European Nationalism.

But let's face it, do you really feel any of these European nationalist parties are going to get into 100% power through elections in even one of these small European nations???

Ugh, first he chooses the jew Sichrovsky as his secretary-general then he supports Turkey's bid to join the EU?

I really should learn to do more research before I go off ranting and raving in someone's defense.
Up untill I saw that video I´ve never heard that before either, I just remember that his party distanced itself from him a few years ago, I just always assumed that that was because of the normal clashes all nationalists seem to be plagued with.

Why am i not surprised. This movement attracts the worst types. I mean despite being a known homo, George Witzgall was getting positive reps for a while here. 2 more months and he probably would have become and NS chapter leader. One other "woman" here was exposed by an anti, some caught it others didn't.

It's still VERY VERY WEIRD that this never came out about the guy INTERNATIONALLY until he was assasinated???

good Point. It seems to me that if you're going to start a lie of this type, you'd do it right at his death, to make it seem like all the investigating into his death just happened to also turn up the fact that he's a faggot.

[B][U] But let's face it, do you really feel any of these European nationalist parties are going to get into 100% power through elections in even one of these small European nations???

Anton, don’t just stop at Europe consider anywhere I guess including the USA.

100%? Never.

51% of the votes is enough though for total control of the legislative house in a nation but then you have the upper body: House of Lords in the UK, guess the Senate in the USA to stall legislation.

Added to that in Europe you have the EU who oversees many of the functions that should rightfully be decided by the nations and the judicial bodies in the UK that follow EU legislation (or directives) as it takes priority over almost all UK law. The police follow the ‘law’.

Then you have various international bodies to prevent you trading, exporting and importing (including energy resources) the various nations where your money is stored (at least on their computer screens), government employees / the Civil service in the UK, labour unions..

A sea change in attitudes needs to happen out there in the wider population. Some of this is happening but somehow, somewhere the man on horseback needs to arrive, capture the imagination of many with simple truths and help make the political climate such that white people with a conscience will not adhere to the current Stockholm Syndrome mentality and the room for manoeuvre of those that bear our dreams ill is thereby limited.

Anyone I've taken one small comment and gone way off topic but at least in continental Europe I guess these parties are getting the right to be heard (however muffled) due to proportional representation. In the long run is that better than first past the post and winner takes all voting systems? Pray that in my life I one day find out.

I totally agree. How many books have these Kikes wrote accusing Hitler and the Nazi's of being all Homo's???

But maybe this was the ROOT of the argument between Haider and the younger guy who now runs the Freedom Party and who the Jews are genuinely afraid of.

REMEMBER, Haider stuck a TRAITOROUS JEW in a high position in the Freedom Party that turned out to be Mossad. He did some really stupid things.

It's still VERY VERY WEIRD that this never came out about the guy INTERNATIONALLY until he was assasinated??? The way they are talking in this article, this deal about him being a queer was WIDELY KNOWN in Austria. If it was common knowledge in Austria, WHY are we only hearing about this NOW, around the world, when the guy is laying dead in a BOX???


Yeah, but even totally disregarding the Hitler accusations (and I agree that they are BS), the presence of admitted ,open and notorious gays in the European racial right is unfortunately real, eg Khunen, Pym Fortuyn. Like the Jews, the fags also have their tentacles everywhere. Of course that does not prove that the accusations against Haider are true, but sadly it would not be the first time

Yeah, but even totally disregarding the Hitler accusations (and I agree that they are BS), the presence of admitted ,open and notorious gays in the European racial right is unfortunately real, eg Khunen, Pym Fortuyn. Like the Jews, the fags also have their tentacles everywhere. Of course that does not prove that the accusations against Haider are true, but sadly it would not be the first time

Even Petzner that sposedly the Jews are afraid of - first time I saw the man I thought he looked odd so I did a Google Image search on him to see if the journaille had picked an unfortunate photo of him as they like to do. The first image is him in semi macho mode, but I'm not an expert (thank God) but does he look (http://images.google.co.uk/images?q=Stefan%20Petzner&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi) free from the taint of homosexuality himself?? Looks like a fetish picture for those who like their men fresh out of Belsen.

I don't know whether or not Haider was a homosexual. I've yet to find any convincing evidence proving that he was.


These pictures while he wouldn't be convicted would unsettle a jury of honest men..


http://diepresse.com/images/uploads/b/e/3/347107/APA20071203134554.jpg


I don't find anything incriminating about those photos, especially considering that Haider was willingly posing for them. It just looks like he's in a club, he's had a few drinks and the music is loud so it's hard to lead a conversation.

What I do find unsettling about the photos, though, is the fashion of those young men. Two are niggered out and one is dressed like a flaming homo. I'd have expected Haider to keep better company.


Questionable sexual orientation aside, anyone who supports Turkey's bid to join the EU should be shot. That's just my opinion.

When I said 100%, I meant a Nationalist party having controlling majority in whatever legislative body the European nation happens to go by without having a coalition partner to water it's agenda down. The Freedom party was in the government of Austria but they were in coalition with the Conservatives. I know they definitely reduced immigration dramatically in that government. What happened since that government collapsed, I don't know but I can only assume it wasn't positive on the immigration and refugee front.

There are 900 and something asylum seekers in Carinthia right now and Haider was critisized for sticking them in a refugee center until their cases were heard and decided. That's a whole lotta asylum seekers for a little province up in the mountains like Carinthia so I assume Austria's asylum laws were loosened up since that Freedom Party/Conservative coalition government.

Personally, I don't feel elections are a viable option anymore for freeing Europe of the anti-white tyranny it exists under now.

I don't know about you, but I've never put my arm around a guy or have a guy with his arm around me, like is in those pictures of Haider drinking. I'm don't get touchy with guys even when I've had 12 beers in me. Why would I? I'm not a queer and haven't had any of those feelings in me my entire life. I do feel Homosexuality in most cases is a mental disorder that can be cured.

Anyway, if those guys were his son's, those pictures would be an entirely different story.

That first picture looks faggie to me. The second picture looks like a father and son but that isn't his kid. The third picture looks a little weird also with Haider's hand on that guy's waist.

The third picture looks a little weird also with Haider's hand on that guy's waist.


You have a point there. When I used to drink and party the arm would always go around the shoulders of a comrade as opposed to around his waist.

The waist should only be traversed if it belongs to an attractive woman.

Maybe it was photoshopped?

However, I do recall that William Pierce, while noting that the jews only approved of "democracy" when the results were in their favor, also rated Haider as basically a mere politician, on par with someone like Pat Buchanan; he looks good mainly because almost all others are just like the very lowest-class streetwalkers.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1078408/Road-death-politician-got-drunk-gay-bar-hours-car-crash--targeted-saboteurs.html

Road-death politician got drunk in a gay bar hours before car crash... and may have been targeted by saboteursBy Daily Mail Reporter

Last updated at 12:58 PM on 17th October 2008


Sabotage: Austrian far-Right leader Jorg Haider died in a car crash last week after being nearly four times over the legal limit Austrian far-Right leader Jorg Haider's car may have been sabotaged before he crashed, it was claimed.
Haider died when his Volkswagen Phaeton veered off the road in the early hours of Saturday morning last week after a boozy celebration party for Austria's right wing leaders.

As throngs of right-wing crowds gathered for his funeral today, makers of the VW Phaeton limo he was driving insist their car is one of the safest in the world and should have survived the crash. VW spokesman Peter Thul claimed that someone with access to Haider’s car key could have manipulated the car’s electrics. The car giants have sent their own experts to examine the wreckage and search for signs it may have been sabotaged.

It has also been revealed that on the day of his death, Haider spent part of his last night drinking in a gay club called ‘Stadtkraemer.’ Police have told Haider's family he had a blood alcohol level of 1.8 pro mille - nearly four times Austria's 0.5 limit. Thul told The Sun: “It is a fact that Haider was going too fast, but such a speed on that curve is not a problem for the car’s physics.
“The Phaeton and Audi A8 are the safest of all. You’d need the key to manipulate the electronics, so someone at a garage

The Stadtkraemer – which translates to The City Shopkeeper – is a well known haunt for the Klagenfurt gay community and advertises itself on the Internet with the slogan: “Whether old or young, lesbian or gay, the restaurant is always cool.”

A fellow diner offered to drive Haider home because he looked the worse for wear, but the 58-year-old governor of the state of Carinthia turned him down.
Haider headed for the notorious gay establishment after his appearance at a night club, the public prosecutor in Klagenfurt confirmed.

He arrived at a quarter past midnight on Saturday morning, left thirty minutes later and was dead within half-an-hour.

Despite being married with two daughters, Haider was “outed” years ago by the Austrian and German press

Talk about something that's MIND BLOWING!!!

How the hell did they keep this shit a secret from the rest of the world all these years ASSUMING it's TRUE???? FAG BARS in the Austrian province of Carinthia???

There was a lady on Rense.com last night that that explained it was A. The City of London that WHACKED HIM (as most have speculated) B. the guys in the other Nationalist Party whose Haider's party is supposed to merge with WHACKED HIM.

Her site loaded with articles about the murder of Jorg Haider:

http://www.rumormillnews.com/

At least the "fag" was out in real life doing something for Whites. You guys spend way too much time on this petty shit while the White Man's house is burning down. He was discreet assuming the story was true and not parading in Amsterdam like a jackass in drag demanding special rights.

He was 4x the legal limit of alcohol and 2x the speed limit. Can we put this conspiracy theory assassination bullshit to rest finally?


Being drunk off your ass and speed don't mix. It's not fucking particle physics. It's common sense.

Even Petzner that sposedly the Jews are afraid of - first time I saw the man I thought he looked odd so I did a Google Image search on him to see if the journaille had picked an unfortunate photo of him as they like to do. The first image is him in semi macho mode, but I'm not an expert (thank God) but does he look (http://images.google.co.uk/images?q=Stefan%20Petzner&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi) free from the taint of homosexuality himself?? Looks like a fetish picture for those who like their men fresh out of Belsen.


Yeah, there are quite a "creepy" poses there, and that is putting it kindly

At least the "fag" was out in real life doing something for Whites. You guys spend way too much time on this petty shit while the White Man's house is burning down. He was discreet assuming the story was true and not parading in Amsterdam like a jackass in drag demanding special rights.

Well Susan, it looks like the both of you like cock.

He was 4x the legal limit of alcohol and 2x the speed limit. Can we put this conspiracy theory assassination bullshit to rest finally?


Being drunk off your ass and speed don't mix. It's not fucking particle physics. It's common sense.They really should not allow people to be cops without a college degree.

It's kind of sad that we only acknowledge a man's existence after he's died.

None of you ever said a word about Haider until he kicked the bucket in a mysterious auto accident. Most of you never heard his name before he died and got famous on the internets.

I'd have to say by the look of things that the white race will be gone or negligible (2% of the world's population) before the turn of the next century.

I've know about Haider for over 10 years now and remember his victory in the year 2000 and his Freedom Party's entry into the Austrian government. What I never heard, is that the guy has been ACCUSED of being a closet homo and that he came out in favor of Turkey's entry into the EU in 2005. I still don't know if either accusations are true and have to look into them further.

IT's OBVIOUS the guy got WHACKED and I wouldn't believe a word about the supposive speed he was driving and his blood alcohol level from the JEWSPAPERS.

He was 4x the legal limit of alcohol and 2x the speed limit. Can we put this conspiracy theory assassination bullshit to rest finally?

Are you some sort of genius or something?

Who's telling you he was drunk and over the speed limit? The employees of his assassins.

They really should not allow people to be cops without a college degree.


... or an IQ below 120.

Well Susan, it looks like the both of you like cock.

I'm not interested in your Homoerotic fantasies. Perhaps a GOP forum may be more to your liking.

It's kind of sad that we only acknowledge a man's existence after he's died.

None of you ever said a word about Haider until he kicked the bucket in a mysterious auto accident. Most of you never heard his name before he died and got famous on the internets.

I'd have to say by the look of things that the white race will be gone or negligible (2% of the world's population) before the turn of the next century.

That's because they are only interested in gossip, insults and have no intention of doing anything off the internets. The WN fantasy world of Homosexuality, Pedophila and Transvestites. The only topics that garnish attention.

The last two White men left on an Iceberg off the coast of Greenland in 2065 will be calling each other Homo and Pedo.

He was 4x the legal limit of alcohol and 2x the speed limit. Can we put this conspiracy theory assassination bullshit to rest finally?...No. Here's why:
http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=81476
If it's true that he supported Turkey's "E.U." membership, it was people in his own ranks who disposed of him. If all that is true, then, good ridance

It's kind of sad that we only acknowledge a man's existence after he's died.

None of you ever said a word about Haider until he kicked the bucket in a mysterious auto accident. Most of you never heard his name before he died and got famous on the internets.

I'd have to say by the look of things that the white race will be gone or negligible (2% of the world's population) before the turn of the next century.


Yeah it will if young White women start to believe that WN is a "gay" thing.Its not enough that Sumner Redstone and company have gone out of their way to spread a myth of sexual prowress to Non-White males and have gone out of their way to sell faggotry and metrosexuality to White males. Conventional WN further sloshes fuel on the fire by having all these Lavender Moments
If its too high a standard to expect and demand that WN males like White pussy and White pussy only, we are wasting our time.

No. Here's why:
http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=81476
If it's true that he supported Turkey's "E.U." membership, it was people in his own ranks who disposed of him. If all that is true, then, good ridance

I guess he got hooked on Turkish bathhouses

They really should not allow people to be cops without a college degree.

I agree, I'm glad I have a college degree.

I thought defaming dead white men was strictly a jew 'thing' ...???

You post some hearsay with a few pictures of the guy obviously inebriated with a group of people and insinuate that he's a homosexual.

Get a Grip.

That's because they are only interested in gossip, insults and have no intention of doing anything off the internets. The WN fantasy world of Homosexuality, Pedophila and Transvestites. The only topics that garnish attention.

The last two White men left on an Iceberg off the coast of Greenland in 2065 will be calling each other Homo and Pedo.

They'll start the argument by calling each other a 'jew,' then they'll ramp up to accusing each other of being a pedo or a homo.

Not to worry, they'll thoroughly blog it through all 287 of their screen names.

They'll start the argument by calling each other a 'jew,' then they'll ramp up to accusing each other of being a pedo or a homo.

Not to worry, they'll thoroughly blog it through all 287 of their screen names.

Typical Goy Behavior

http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/2969/55894034wg1.gif

It's kind of sad that we only acknowledge a man's existence after he's died.

None of you ever said a word about Haider until he kicked the bucket in a mysterious auto accident. Most of you never heard his name before he died and got famous on the internets.

I'd have to say by the look of things that the white race will be gone or negligible (2% of the world's population) before the turn of the next century.




"I'll tell you a secret. The new man lives among us. Is that sufficient for you?
I saw the new man, fearless and grue-some. He scared me."

(A.Hitler to Rauschning)

If its too high a standard to expect and demand that WN males like White pussy and White pussy only, we are wasting our time.
On the other hand a racist fag does have his advantages, he would put the PeeCee media before a real dilemma, do they call him a nazi or do they praise this brave member of a protected minority. Of course I am joking, I agree, it´s absolutely idiotic to tolerate such types in our ranks.

What's mindblowing is that such a thread exists.

Not that i approve of it but homosexuality has been proven to be a natural phenomenon, even in insects and mamals, not some bullshit you decide to "take on". (well, maybe for some people in this age but still...)

Don't ask me how or why it happens but it does and since it cannot be controlled, as long as it stays away from public ordinary society i don't have a problem with it.

Only maniacs or americunts get pissed about what people do when they can't see/hear them and it doesn't influence their lives in any way.

* http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Americunts

What's mindblowing is that such a thread exists.

Not that i approve of it but homosexuality has been proven to be a natural phenomenon, even in insects and mamals, not some bullshit you decide to "take on". (well, maybe for some people in this age but still...)

Don't ask me how or why it happens but it does and since it cannot be controlled, as long as it stays away from public ordinary society i don't have a problem with it.

Where's your evidence for these claims?

Is gay marriage a common phenomenon among other mammals besides us? Have you ever met a dog that barked with a lisp? A tiger that had its cock and nipples pierced?

Only maniacs or americunts get pissed about what people do when they can't see/hear them and it doesn't influence their lives in any way.

* http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Americunts

I think a pretty strong case could be put together that male homosexuals do pose a threat to public health, among other things.

Europeans shouldn't wonder why Muslims are taking over their continent if they're willing to accept homosexuality as normal.

Where's your evidence for these claims?

Is gay marriage a common phenomenon among other mammals besides us? Have you ever met a dog that barked with a lisp? A tiger that had its cock and nipples pierced?


"Gay marriage" is an egalitarian revendication born from a standard established by a batshit insane religion to begin with.

Piercings started just like tatoos, it was a sign of the SOCIALLY outcast before being 'mainstreamed'; it has nothing do to with sexuality.


I think a pretty strong case could be put together that male homosexuals do pose a threat to public health, among other things.

Europeans shouldn't wonder why Muslims are taking over their continent if they're willing to accept homosexuality as normal.

I'm not saying it's normal. According to usual stats it's about 9% of any given population. It would be normal if it was 40/60 or 50-50.

It's a sort of gender disorder (well more like attraction disorder) that just seems to spawn here and there.

Fags aren't a threat to society, much less public health since they usually live very promiscuous lives. It's the hypocritical "good christian fathers" that go get pummeled in the ass by a condomless barebacker when their wives are asleep you should worry about.

What's mindblowing is that such a thread exists.

Not that i approve of it but homosexuality has been proven to be a natural phenomenon, even in insects and mamals, not some bullshit you decide to "take on". (well, maybe for some people in this age but still...)

Down's Syndrome is a natural phenomenon. As is the Negroid tendency to rape. Or psychopathy. Cancer is natural too. People with IQs below 80 are naturally occuring. So is the Jew. I think that's all the more reason to want to get rid of them. That's only natural, since making decisions is also natural to humans.

I'll add that I have never read of any cases of animals engaging in this abherrant sexual behaviour under normal conditions in the wild. In case you're wondering, animals in captivity are not under normal conditions in the wild.

Only maniacs or americunts get pissed about what people do when they can't see/hear them and it doesn't influence their lives in any way.

These words are typical of a Eurofag. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=eurofag They've been so indoctrinated into liberalism that its second nature to them. Their moral sense has been entirely suppressed. Even the "right wing" is full of the decadent thought Lechrac is espousing. Make no mistake, a lesser degree of decadence is still decadence. That explains why there are so many faggots flying the pink Swastika over there. It goes without saying that the only reason a faggot becomes involved with "Nazis" is the excitement, sexual or otherwise. That's why there is no room for faggots amongst us. There is no such thing as a genuine faggot.

I'll add that I have never read of any cases of animals engaging in this abherrant sexual behaviour under normal conditions in the wild. In case you're wondering, animals in captivity are not under normal conditions in the wild.


I'm not going to do the search for you. Use your brain at least for once.


They've been so indoctrinated into liberalism that its second nature to them. Their moral sense has been entirely suppressed. Even the "right wing" is full of the decadent thought Lechrac is espousing. Make no mistake, a lesser degree of decadence is still decadence. That explains why there are so many faggots flying the pink Swastika over there. It goes without saying that the only reason a faggot becomes involved with "Nazis" is the excitement, sexual or otherwise. That's why there is no room for faggots amongst us. There is no such thing as a genuine faggot.

What kind of bullshit is this ?

Wanna call me a freak/liberal ? Go ahead, i don't care, at the end of the day you're still the moron denying both nature and science...

Tell you the truth if you represent the ideal "wn influenced by christianity but not so much and if you don't believe all my shit you're evil", i'm kind of glad you're trying to label me out of "your circle".

"Gay marriage" is an egalitarian revendication born from a standard established by a batshit insane religion to begin with.

Gay marriage is an attack on traditional Western society and values.

I don't really get what your point here is -- it sounds like you're just trying to change the subject -- but marriage (between a man and a woman) existed long before Christianity.

Piercings started just like tatoos, it was a sign of the SOCIALLY outcast before being 'mainstreamed'; it has nothing do to with sexuality.

The point I was trying to make is that homosexuality shows every sign of being a counterculture; it's not just a question of, "oh poor me, I was born with the elusive 'gay gene' so you had better just tolerate me and my sexual perversions (and how about lowering the age of consent while you're at it so I can get down your son's pants?)."

I'm not saying it's normal. According to usual stats it's about 9% of any given population. It would be normal if it was 40/60 or 50-50.

What "stats"? The only people who claim homos are 9% of the population are homos themselves. Do you honestly believe that nearly 1 out of every 10 people you meet is a homosexual?

Not sure, but I think it was Kinsey that got the ball rolling on the 10% thing.

It's a sort of gender disorder (well more like attraction disorder) that just seems to spawn here and there.

I agree that it's a disorder. Unfortunately, we're not allowed to call it that anymore because of the pressure put on the psychiatric profession by the homosexual lobby.

Fags aren't a threat to society, much less public health since they usually live very promiscuous lives.

Uh? Their promiscuity combined with their unhealthy sexual activities is precisely why they're a threat to public health.

It's the hypocritical "good christian fathers" that go get pummeled in the ass by a condomless barebacker when their wives are asleep you should worry about.

I include them as homosexuals. Perhaps if Western societies were not as permissive as they now are, such men wouldn't pursue this behavior as obsessively as they do.

What's mindblowing is that such a thread exists.

Not that i approve of it but homosexuality has been proven to be a natural phenomenon, even in insects and mamals, not some bullshit you decide to "take on". (well, maybe for some people in this age but still...)

Don't ask me how or why it happens but it does and since it cannot be controlled, as long as it stays away from public ordinary society i don't have a problem with it.

Only maniacs or americunts get pissed about what people do when they can't see/hear them and it doesn't influence their lives in any way.

* http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Americunts
Most active homos were diddled as little boys, it is not natural, ask the Menendi twins.

I'll add that I have never read of any cases of animals engaging in this abherrant sexual behaviour under normal conditions in the wild. In case you're wondering, animals in captivity are not under normal conditions in the wild.

A distinction should be made between homosexuality and bisexuality. I can accept that it's "natural" for an animal to like having its genitals touched, and the hornier it is, the less sexually mature it is (i.e. children, teenagers), and/or the less natural its environment (e.g. captivity, the counterfeit world of television), the less likely it is to be discriminating when it comes to who/what is doing the touching. (That doesn't mean that just because it feels good one should do it, however.)

But homosexuality -- that is, screwing people of your gender exclusively -- IMO, there's nothing "natural" about that at all. That's a lifestyle decision, not a natural impulse.

If there really are people who are "born that way," then it's a birth defect. It's nothing that should be celebrated or treated as the moral equivalent of heterosexuality.

Most active homos were diddled as little boys...

I believe that to be true in a lot of cases. And that's why homos should not be allowed near children; if given the chance, they'll try to keep the cycle going.

I'm not going to do the search for you. Use your brain at least for once.

That was my way of saying that they do not exist, idiot. Animals which are differentiated by sex do not engage in such behaviours in the wild. I confidently do not only deny the positive, but make the negative case, because if they did, the evidence fort this would have been found by now.

What kind of bullshit is this ?

Why don't you use that sharp intellect of yours to explain to us all what is "bullshit" about it.

Wanna call me a freak/liberal ? Go ahead, i don't care,

You said:

Only maniacs or americunts get pissed about what people do when they can't see/hear them and it doesn't influence their lives in any way.

The idea that whatever does not harm others is permissible is a fundamental idea of liberalism. Since you hold to that idea, I think I'm justified in calling you a liberal.

at the end of the day you're still the moron denying both nature and science...


Exactly what have I denied about either nature or science? Let's hear it, genius.

Tell you the truth if you represent the ideal "wn influenced by christianity but not so much and if you don't believe all my shit you're evil", i'm kind of glad you're trying to label me out of "your circle".

I'm not influenced by Christianity. Indo-European cultures have condemned, prohibited and executed faggots without exception.

I never called you "evil" either. I called you a moral ignoramus and I called you decadent. I don't blame you either. How could a man raised in Belgium be any different?

This is just to distract from the fact he was probably murdered by JEWS.

Any articles from kosher news sources about that?

What "stats"? The only people who claim homos are 9% of the population are homos themselves. Do you honestly believe that nearly 1 out of every 10 people you meet is a homosexual?

Not sure, but I think it was Kinsey that got the ball rolling on the 10% thing.

The same "stats" which tell you all paedophiles are white, "blacks" aren't predominantly criminal, and no IQ differences exist amongst "races". You're right about kinsey. And Kinsey falsified all his data.

The actual figure is between 1-2%. Two out of one hundred men might be faggots. Judging from the number of faggots I encountered in my school years relative to the number of boys in those schools, that sound about right. Out of a class of around 100, I can think of around two or three faggots.

I called you a moral ignoramus and I called you decadent. I don't blame you either. How could a man raised in Belgium be any different?

So much for a guy who proudly announced he was an "ephebophile" (the pretty word for PEDOPHILE) multiple times.

Yet you have the nerve to claim i'm decadent and immoral because i tend to prefer the scientific argument over what ignorant fanatics yell ?

Holy shit, you have serious issues man.

The actual figure is between 1-2%.

That figure is also consistent with what Statistics Canada found in a census a few years ago where they asked about sexual orientation.

So much for a guy who proudly announced he was an "ephebophile" (the pretty word for PEDOPHILE) multiple times.

Once, actually, and the context was humorous. Furthermore, paedophilia refers exclusively to prepubescents, while ephebophilia categorically excludes prepubescents, therefore ephebophile is not a pretty word for paedophile. I'll tell you what is pretty word for pederast, however: homosexual.

Yet you have the nerve to claim i'm decadent and immoral because i tend to prefer the scientific argument over what ignorant fanatics yell ?

What "scientific argument"? You haven't given any scientific argument. You've made an empirical claim, and you have drawn whatever irrational ethical conclusions you like from it based upon your own liberal ethical presuppositions. Furthermore, ethical statements are never scientific.

For instance, so what if the behaviour is "natural"? How is the permissibility of "natural" behaviour a scientific fact?

You're a decadent because you accept the decadence of faggotry.

You're a decadent because you accept the decadence of faggotry.

It happened and still happens everywhere else in nature, therefore i don't have to accept jack shit and you saying it's "decadent" is just a failed application of the insane ideology you earned from christianity.

Remember in old greece and rome it was considered "noble" behavior to a certain extent.

Was it decadent by their age standards ? No. Was it wrong ? Maybe, nobody will never know anyway.

The world didn't wait for you and your stupid categorizations.

It happened and still happens everywhere else in nature,

For the last time, Eurofag: it does not occur amongst animals in their natural condition. It only occurs amongst animals in captivity. It does not occur, and it will never be found to occur as an hereditary trait in any species because it is anti-Darwinian.

therefore i don't have to accept jack shit and you saying it's "decadent"

Unhealthy behaviour is by definition decadent.

is just a failed application of the insane ideology you earned from christianity.

Please demonstrate how my judgment of faggotry has been influenced by Christianity.

Remember in old greece and rome it was considered "noble" behavior to a certain extent.

Oh for fuck's sake. Not that argument again. For the last time, Eurofag: faggotry was outlawed in the classical world until the subversiom of Roman culture in the third century. The Hellenes put faggots to death.

Was it decadent by their age standards ? No.

For the last time, Eurofag: faggotry was never an accepted practice in any traditional Aryan society. It's condemnation in Western Europe before the "modern age" had nothing to do with Chritianity and everything to do with Germanic and Celtic traditions. The Germans castrated faggots and buried them alive.

The world didn't wait for you and your stupid categorizations.

You're going to be spewing Boasian illogic next. Please note this for future reference. "Leshrac" is some day going to go "anti" on us.

The politician, who was married with two daughters but was rumoured throughout his career to be a closet homosexual, spent the last part of his night alive in Stadtkraemer, a popular gay club in Klagenfurt. He arrived at Stadtkraemer at a quarter past midnight after having visited another nightclub, and left thirty minutes later, the public prosecutor in Klagenfurt said. Here. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/austria/3217869/Haider-was-drinking-in-a-gay-bar-before-he-crashed.html)

Regardless of the arguments below homosexuality isn't going to go away anytime soon without some sort of medical breakthrough. Still I think two things are clear, firstly a homosexual man will not be a good leader of any party. He won't have the authority to lead if known and will be subject to the need for furtiveness and dishonesty and risk blackmail if it's not known. Secondly though as society breaks down as muslims and assorted rabble become higher proportions of the overall population then the overt intolerance for homos that Islam brings and the disdain in black culture will mean many homosexuals will move more consciously into a more western focused identity and therefore give their votes to white centric parties (at least those that don't suggest hanging or electro-shock therapy!)

Please note this for future reference. "Leshrac" is some day going to go "anti" on us.

Who is "us" ?

From the first time i've seen one of your posts you have constantly been engaged in flame wars and arguments with people, got close from getting banhammered TWICE for trying to shove your crap down Alex's throath and have the balls to say "us" (implying "this forum") ?

If there's a foundation taking care of people like you, COUNT ON ME !

Leshrac

What is the point of your emotional defense of queers? There is nothing harmless about faggotry the way it is being practiced today, with all the very politicized gay agenda issues, the crass gay parades and all that other bullshit that comes when you let fruits out of the closet.

Fags want to be like jews, wymin and niggers, another victim group that is fucking with what is left of white society.

Either you are naïve or you really are an enabler and an apologist for liberal decadence.

:confused: Is Leshrac bisexual?

For the last time, Eurofag...

For the last time, Eurofag: The Germans castrated faggots and buried them alive.

You're going to be spewing Boasian illogic next. Please note this for future reference. "Leshrac" is some day going to go "anti" on us.

Le Schreck's ("Leshrac") contributions to VNN has never been other than "ANTI".
He is asking us in his avatar if he is a WTF?
And let's answer him in the affirmativ!

Yes, you are a Weird Tumorous Fucker

:confused: Is Leshrac bisexual?

Lol not quite :p

I'm just tired of these bullshit threads where people who really don't have what it takes to pose as intellectuals shout out their "truth" and glorious "unavoidable conclusions".

I mean come on... Does anybody really thinks fags are going to "bring down our civilization and doom it for 50 generations because they do a ridiculous parade" ?

What have fags actually done to you ? Except a few stupid parades you didn't go to or bogus "legal combats" that make them look even more ridiculous and repulsive ?

Want to know why this movement is stagnate ? Because people keep engaging in hairsplitting, borderline psychotic debates on things that :

- Never affected them beyond an annoying tv commercial.
- Never concerned them to begin with.
- They were and will never be a part of.

Le Schreck's ("Leshrac") contributions to VNN has never been other than "ANTI".

You probably missed something...

Does anybody here speak German or knows how to translate some Austrian articles on the Haider assasination into English? I'm curious if the Austrian press is claiming he was drinking in a Fag Bar right before his death and that he was outed as a homo for years now???

All the articles we're looking at come from JEWSPAPERS in London and the Telegragh is owned by the NWO ROTHCHILD KIKES of London who are racial and ideological enemies of Haider and his Austrian Nationalist party. WHAT ARE THE AUSTRIANS saying about this all.

As far as HOMO's go, they have ZERO business running Nationalist parties. They simply can't be trusted because Homosexuality is mainly a MENTAL ILLNESS. Some can be cured and others can't. Some Homo's have a genetic defect in them and are simply just that way, but that doesn't mean have any business running Nationalist political parties in Europe.

Would you want the leader of your Nationalist political party to be married with 2 kids and sucking some guys dick on the side when he thought no one was looking and hope no one would tell??? GET F-ING REAL!!!

I really hope this ISN'T TRUE about Jorg Haider.

I mean come on... Does anybody really thinks fags are going to "bring down our civilization and doom it for 50 generations because they do a ridiculous parade" ?

The question is, whose side are the majority of fags on? It´s difficult to deny that they are not part of the problem, and apparently, as a group, they have quite a bit of money and they undeniably have substantial influence, as is evidenced by their sudden rise in media and political importance.

Is it possible that it was a bar that had a fag night, and he happened to be there on a night that wasn't fag night.

Not all fag bars are fag bars 7 days a week, but it would be easy to spin it that way.

What's mindblowing is that such a thread exists.

Not that i approve of it but homosexuality has been proven to be a natural phenomenon, even in insects and mamals, not some bullshit you decide to "take on". (well, maybe for some people in this age but still...)

Don't ask me how or why it happens but it does and since it cannot be controlled, as long as it stays away from public ordinary society i don't have a problem with it.

Only maniacs or americunts get pissed about what people do when they can't see/hear them and it doesn't influence their lives in any way.

* http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Americunts

Nice link. I'm going to enjoy reading the entry on Americunts. Oh, how I despise them.

Nice sig too!

Nice link. I'm going to enjoy reading the entry on Americunts. Oh, how I despise them.

Nice sig too!

Beware, Americans and Americunts are two different species :D

[B][U]Does anybody here speak German or knows how to translate some Austrian articles on the Haider assasination into English

I really hope this ISN'T TRUE about Jorg Haider.

Jörg Haider - Foto: LPD/Raunig

16.10.08 22:30
War Jörg Haider vor seinem Tod noch in einem Schwulenlokal?
Gerüchte und Mail an Staatsanwalt nicht bestätigt

Was JH in a homo-bar before he died?
Rumors and mail addressed to prosecuter could not be confirmed.

[/quote]
Die Rekonstruktion der letzten Stunden des Kärntner Landeshauptmannes Jörg Haider sorgt für Ungereimtheiten. So wollen ihn Augenzeugen in einer Klagenfurter Schwulenbar gesehen haben, was deren Besitzer aber dementiert.

Wie die Kärntner Tageszeitung (KTZ) berichtet, soll Haider am Samstag um 0.15 Uhr für etwa eine halbe Stunde im "Stadtkrämer", einem Szenelokal in Klagenfurt gewesen sein. Wie der ORF Kärnten berichtet, soll er mit einer Runde einen Geburtstag gefeiert haben.

Der Leiter der Staatsanwaltschaft Klagenfurt, Gottfried Kranz, bestätigt den Erhalt einer E-Mail, in der ein Besuch Haiders in einem "Klagenfurter Szenelokal" erwähnt wird. Ob dieses Lokal der Stadtkrämer war, bestätigt Kranz nicht.

Wie die "Kleine Zeitung" berichtet, sollen Gäste beobachtetet haben, wie ein Mann dem offensichtlich nicht mehr nüchternen Landeshauptmann anbot, ihn in dessen Klagenfurter Wohnung zu fahren. Der Gast holte sein Auto. Als er beim Lokal vorfuhr und Haider eingestiegen sollte, lehnte dieser dankend ab. Er fahre schon selbst - mit dem eigenen Wagen. Ursprünglich hatte es geheißen, Haider hätte sich nach einem offiziellen Termin in Velden auf den Nachhauseweg gemacht.

Hans-Peter Gasser, der Betreiber des Stadtkrämers, bestätigt den Besuch des Landeshauptmannes nicht. "Ich kann auch nicht bestätigen, dass er öfter bei uns zu Gast war", so Gasser. Allerdings hat Gasser am Freitagabend ein zweites Lokal, nämlich die Bar „Bem Vindo“ am Kardinalsplatz, eröffnet. An deren Eröffnung hat Haider teilgenommen, wie Wirt Hans-Peter Grasser in der "Presse" bestätigt.

Andere Augenzeugen berichten, Haider habe zuvor noch in seiner Klagenfurter Stadtwohnung beziehungsweise im Hotel Moser Verdino vorbeigeschaut.

Bereits gestern hat Stefan Petzner, Haiders Pressesprecher und Nachfolger als BZÖ-Obmann, die Medien gebeten, "jetzt und hier die Stopptaste zu drücken und die Berichterstattung betreffend des Unfalles abzuschließen". Haider habe gerne Feste gefeiert, sagte er. Für die Staatsanwaltschaft ist der Fall nun so gut wie abgeschlossen. Es gibt laut Kranz kein Fremdverschulden und keinen Drittbeteiligten.

Just translate the arial black part for you:

H-P Gasser, the owner of the bar, did not confirm a visit by Haider that evening.." I also can not confirm that he came here often"...

I'm relieved to find out that Leshrac isn't giving hummers while mumbling in Flemish or Walloon. :p

This is very old news. Nobody, except his wife, should care.

Just translate the arial black part for you:

H-P Gasser, the owner of the bar, did not confirm a visit by Haider that evening.." I also can not confirm that he came here often"...



Thanks Tuisto!!! So maybe all of this about Haider in the London JEWSPAPERS is just a bunch of KIKE DISINFO??? It's very possible it is. Keep on searching, if you can for AUSTRIAN NEWS on Haider and fill us in???

This is very old news. Nobody, except his wife, should care.

See, apart from Tuisto, the Eurofags consistently excuse faggotry. Queen Lampshade Maker is another one of them.

Le Schreck's ("Leshrac") contributions to VNN has never been other than "ANTI".

Now that I come to think of it, you're right.

http://www.iwatchstuff.com/2007/07/18/shrek-the-fifth.jpg

Those who are obsessed with the sexuality of other men tend to be latent, closet cases 10 times out 10.

Note Pedophile's avatar, two kids in a sexualized pose.

I'm willing to bet the house that the freaky individual who goes by the name of Sándor Petőfi on VNN is a sexual deviant, most likely a homosexual pedophile.

What an affected freak.


See, apart from Tuisto, the Eurofags consistently excuse faggotry. Queen Lampshade Maker is another one of them.



Now that I come to think of it, you're right.

http://www.iwatchstuff.com/2007/07/18/shrek-the-fifth.jpg

...Have you ever met a dog that barked with a lisp? A tiger that had its cock and nipples pierced?...I've seen poodles go around, in public, with their pubic fur shaved off. They don't even have the decency to wear ball bagsThey really should not allow people to be cops without a college degree.You don't really need one, to keep donuts in line

Those who are obsessed with the sexuality of other men tend to be latent, closet cases 10 times out 10.

That's a typically Freudian observation. Now, if only you'd make such observations of yourself, you'd have to conclude that you were a paedophile.

Note Pedophile's avatar, two kids in a sexualized pose.

Only someone with "child sex" on his mind could see that as a "sexualized pose".

I'm willing to bet the house that the freaky individual who goes by the name of Sándor Petőfi on VNN is a sexual deviant, most likely a homosexual pedophile.

What an affected freak.

Let's get something straight. You are a troll and most of us know it.

Those who are obsessed with the sexuality of other men tend to be latent, closet cases 10 times out 10.

Anyone else notice the irony in a person who defends faggotry using the accusation of faggotry as a smear? Inconsistency is the hallmark of a troll.

Note Pedophile's avatar, two kids in a sexualized pose.
.

A female putting her head on a male's shoulder is sexualized? What?!

A female putting her shoulder on a male's shoulder is sexualized? What?!

Yeah, he's a screwball alright.

A female putting her shoulder on a male's shoulder is sexualized? What?!

Why does a grown man have 2 children as his avatar pic?

http://www.ac-nancy-metz.fr/enseign/anglais/Henry/rabbitduck.gif

Rabbit or duck? If you've just been watching the little bunnies frolic on the meadow, you're likely to say "Rabbit!".

Dandy - a man who gives exaggerated attention to personal appearance

Dandy - a man who gives exaggerated attention to personal appearance

And the SS wore uniforms made by Hugo Boss.

http://www.germaniainternational.com/images/princewaldeckheader.jpg

Does that look like a man who doesn't give a lot of attention to his apperance?

Dandyism. What is the superior man? It is not the
specialist. It is the man of leisure and broad educa-
tion. To be rich and to love labor.

Baudelaire

His ideal of the greatness of the individual is derived
logically from his conception of an aristocratic society
under the triumvirate of the poet, the priest and the
soldier. "Before all, to be a great man and a saint for
one's self;" that, for Baudelaire, is the one ambition
worthy of a superior nature. He has indicated the prin-
cipal traits of the ideal "dandy" that he has sought un-
ceasingly. The dandy is not only the most elegant of
men, of the most original and discriminating tastes, which
he exercises in his habits, in the choice of his books or his
mistress; he is armed with a will superior to all obstacles,
opposing caprice with invincible energy, and correcting
in himself the inevitable faults of nature with all the
resources of art.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/Mussolini/photo_gallery/images/Benito_Mussolini_pc.jpg

Mussolini

http://www.kultunderground.org/Public/img/Drieu%204.jpg

Drieu La Rochelle

http://wsi.matriots.com/images/oswald_mosley.jpg

Mosley

http://www.acepilots.com/wwi/goering.jpg

Goering

All dandys.

Why does a grown man have 2 children as his avatar pic?

That you would even ask that question ...

http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/nazi/adolf-hitler/hitler_and_youth.jpg

http://www.fpp.co.uk/shop/Ealing/photos_misc/gallery_1/images/Hitler_girl.jpg

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScrapbook/HimmlerPhotos/PuppiHimmler.jpg

http://maggiesfarm.anotherdotcom.com/uploads/hitlerjugend.jpg

What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and reproduction of our race and our people, the sustenance of our children and the purity of our blood, the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe.

Does anybody here speak German or knows how to translate some Austrian articles on the Haider assasination into English? I'm curious if the Austrian press is claiming he was drinking in a Fag Bar right before his death and that he was outed as a homo for years now???

Imperfectly, Babelfish: http://babelfish.yahoo.com/

Regardless of the arguments below homosexuality isn't going to go away anytime soon without some sort of medical breakthrough.

Medical breakthrough? First of all, I firmly reject the idea, which has been heavily promoted by the homosexual lobby, that homosexuality has any sort of a genetic basis. I have not seen any persuasive evidence that this is the case, and actually much evidence to the contrary. I repeat my earlier point: How many faggots are born with a lisp? Not many, I'd wager. If homosexuality is to some extent, in some people, biologically predetermined, then it's a birth defect, and homosexuality ought to be treated as a pathology. (In China, they throw queers into mental institutions.)

Secondly, the goal is not to try to eradicate homosexuality itself. As long as people have genitals, homosexual behavior will, as you say, always be a part of the human equation, and frankly, I have better things to do with my time than try to police what people do in the privacy of their bedrooms. The goal is to eradicate -- or at least neutralize -- homosexuality as a socio-political movement. If John wants to swallow another man's semen in the privacy of his bedroom, that's for the most part his business (though I think he should have to pay a higher health insurance premium than heterosexuals do if he wants to engage in that sort of behavior, just like smokers are required to pay higher premiums than non-smokers); however, if John wants to be part of a socio-political movement who's explicit aim is to normalize and even openly promote his sexual perversion, and in particular propagandize my children through the schools and the mass media, then he has crossed the line and become a legitimate political target. Once John has crossed that line, it's no longer about what John does in the privacy of his bedroom, it's about the ideas that John represents and is trying to shove down my throat (or stick up my ass, as the case may be).

The fags and dykes who are part of the "gay rights" movement are trying to destroy Western society, and ultimately exterminate whites, every bit as much as Jews, feminists, leftists/liberals, and non-whites are. Queers should be opposed just as vigorously as we oppose any other group with an anti-white agenda.

Secondly though as society breaks down as muslims and assorted rabble become higher proportions of the overall population then the overt intolerance for homos that Islam brings and the disdain in black culture will mean many homosexuals will move more consciously into a more western focused identity and therefore give their votes to white centric parties (at least those that don't suggest hanging or electro-shock therapy!)

I've said this to several homos before. They just don't get it. I don't think queers, much like feminists, realize just how good they have it in the West. All they really care about is themselves, their hedonistic lifestyle, and what's good for them now. They've given little thought to the long term, and it has yet to dawn on them that we're all on this ship together and that if they poke holes in the hull, we're all going to drown (of course, it's not surprising that those who have chosen a lifestyle which raises their own sexual gratification above having children would have a short term view of things).

I mean, look: if any homo wants to oppose immigration (and there are certainly signs that some of them are waking up to the threats that will be posed by immigration to their lifestyle), then all the more power to him. But at best, I view such people in the same way that I view anti-Zionist Jews, black Muslims, and the like -- we may have some common objectives, but they're no friends of mine and an official alliance is out of the question.

Queers have spent at least the last 30 years trying to destroy the traditional concept of the family and forming alliances with Jews, feminists, leftists, and non-whites against the heterosexual white majority; I'm not about to forget that.

Igor, I have followed in the 'better' press the various elements that have cropped up in the gay inheritance debate (hair whorls, index finger, chromosomes etc ) but TBH who really has the inclination / stomach to look that deeply into it unless you happen to cover it as part of some post grad study? I keep an open mind but find it hard to countenance that any of us at some stage of puberty or whatever could suddenly be stricken with something so profound that wasn't there just waiting to be 'switched on'.

On the other side of things, I think that the homosexual political movement is an abhorrent thing and hope that like many radical things (good and bad) it is more a movement of youth and that like most people travelling through life they grow out of it. Where it exhibits itself I think all right think people should voice their disgust and not allow themselves to be brow beaten by tolerance arguments.

First article I saw on the Haider gay bar thing was via Google news and the link was some gay site called Pink News. I then looked further and found the Telegraph article. The comments on the gay site though were somewhat pro (http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-9328.html#) Haider.

I take some comfort in the fact that as a father of one girl and another due in January that in my family and that of their mother there is no history of homosexuality that I am aware of. If there was in her family it would seriously have made me question whether she should be the mother of my children..

Igor, I have followed in the 'better' press the various elements that have cropped up in the gay inheritance debate (hair whorls, index finger, chromosomes etc ) but TBH who really has the inclination / stomach to look that deeply into it unless you happen to cover it as part of some post grad study?

There's no need to look at it that deeply. I've already given you a few common sense reasons to doubt that one's sexual orientation is determined before birth. Does anyone claim that lisping or some of the feminine mannerisms encountered in some male homosexuals are inherited rather learned traits? Do lesbians cut their hair short and hate men because Mother Nature programmed them that way? If we can agree that these behaviors are learned rather than inherited, why is it so hard to accept that a sexual attraction to one's own gender might be a sexual perversion, just like fetishes that are aquired during puberty?

What about boys who get diddled by men who end up diddling boys when they grow up? Any causal connection?

You don't need a Ph.D. to form an opinion on this subject, any more than you need one to reach the conclusion that global warming, the holocaust, or Boasian anthropology are scams. God knows, most of the homosexuals going around claiming they were "born that way" haven't spent any time reading scientific journals to support their position.

I keep an open mind but find it hard to countenance that any of us at some stage of puberty or whatever could suddenly be stricken with something so profound that wasn't there just waiting to be 'switched on'.

Well, I don't agree. Let me ask you this: do you believe that it's possible to influence people towards homosexual behavior? What if I told children, teenagers, and young adults that bisexuality is cool, that it's what all their favorite bands/celebrities are doing, what their peers are doing, that it's forbidden and thus exciting and that it's a great way to rebel against their parents/authority figures? What if I told them that with homosexual sex, they can achieve lots of orgasms without having to worry about pregnancy? Could I succeed in this manner to convince at least some of them that they aren't "straight," or that they ought to at least try a homosexual encounter? If you answer in the affirmative, then I don't see how you can maintain that sexual orientation is something that's absolutely fixed at birth. If you answer in the negative, then logically, there can be no objection to allowing TV, magazine, and billboard adverstising to be filled with homoerotic material more than it already is, since there's no possibility that it could influence the behavior of anyone who isn't "born that way."

BTW, I'm not making anything up in the above scenario: this is exactly how homosexuality is being marketed to our young people at this very time. From what I've seen, the "marketers" are having a fair bit of success.

Another question: are bestiality, necrophilia, and incest sexual appetites that are also determined before birth? If people can accept the notion that homosexuals are "born that way" without breaking out in laughter, I don't see why we shouldn't take seriously the idea that people with a sexual interest in corpses, animals, or their relatives aren't also "born that way." And hey, if they're "born that way," then it's "natural," and if it's natural, then we shouldn't judge their behavior according to any outdated Christian norms, right, Leshrac? Seems logical enough to me. People marrying their pets? Why the hell not. Who are we to stand in the way of love?

On the other side of things, I think that the homosexual political movement is an abhorrent thing and hope that like many radical things (good and bad) it is more a movement of youth and that like most people travelling through life they grow out of it. Where it exhibits itself I think all right think people should voice their disgust and not allow themselves to be brow beaten by tolerance arguments.

But if you're going to accept the homosexual lobby's argument that homosexuals are "born that way," what rational basis is there for opposing the gay rights movement?

Just sharing the following thoughts/observations:

1. When it comes to race and gender, our masters tell us to ignore genetics, that race and gender are "social constructs." Being a "racist" means you reject the idea that race is largely a social construct (*). Being "sexist" means you reject the notion that gender is largely a social construct.

2. When it comes to homosexuality, our masters have stood the above policy on its head. Homosexuality is determined by genes, not by environment and/or by individual choice, we are told. Anyone who questions this notion is a "homophobe," and anyone who suggests that changing the environment might result in fewer homosexuals or that homosexuality is a vice or psychological disorder that can to some extent be controlled or cured is a "fascist," a "nazi," or "heterosexist."

(*) The one exception to this rule being that it's OK to say Jews are smarter than everyone else due to their genes.

Does anybody really thinks fags are going to "bring down our civilization and doom it for 50 generations because they do a ridiculous parade" ?

YES.

I was absolutely stunned to discover a few months ago that my old small-town Junior High School now had a GLBT (Gay-Lesbian-Bisexual-Transgendered) "club" that was put together by students and has the support of a number of the faculty members. Junior High School, that's 10 to 13 year olds; that's how old the kids are that these queers you're defending are going after.

White birth rates in most places are below replacement levels; do you really think that now's the time to be letting a bunch of queers try to convince pretty blonde-haired 10-year-old Lucy that she'd really be better off chewing carpet for the rest of her life than marrying her high school sweetheart (hopefully white) and raising a family?

I get all my fag news from VNN. I never knew this about Jorg.

Et tu, Jorgi?

It seems to me you lived your life like a candle in the wind.

Frankly my dear I don't give a damn.

I see dead people.

I think a pretty strong case could be put together that male homosexuals do pose a threat to public health, among other things.

New Bacteria Strain Is Striking Gay Men
By LAWRENCE K. ALTMAN
New York Times
January 15, 2008
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/15/health/15infe.html

A new, highly drug-resistant strain of the “flesh-eating” MRSA bacteria is being spread among gay men in San Francisco and Boston, researchers reported on Monday.

In a study published online by the journal Annals of Internal Medicine, the bacteria seemed to be spread most easily through anal intercourse but also through casual skin-to-skin contact and touching contaminated surfaces.

The authors warned that unless microbiology laboratories were able to identify the strain and doctors prescribed the proper antibiotic therapy, the infection could soon spread among other groups and become a wider threat.

The new strain seems to have “spread rapidly” in gay populations in San Francisco and Boston, the researchers wrote, and “has the potential for rapid, nationwide dissemination” among gay men.

The study was based on a review of medical records from outpatient clinics in San Francisco and Boston and nine medical centers in San Francisco.

The Castro district in San Francisco has the highest number of gay residents in the country, according to the University of California, San Francisco. One in 588 residents is infected with the new multidrug-resistant MRSA strain, the study found. That compares with 1 in 3,800 people in San Francisco, according to statistical analyses based on ZIP codes.

A separate part of the study found that gay men in San Francisco were about 13 times more likely to be infected than other people in the city.

The San Francisco researchers suggested that scrubbing with soap and water might be the most effective way to stop skin-to-skin transmission, particularly after sexual activities.

MRSA, for methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus, was once spread chiefly in hospitals. But in recent years, a number of healthy people have acquired it outside hospitals.

Nearly 19,000 people died in the United States from MRSA infections in 2005, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has reported.

The infection can cause unusually severe problems, including abscesses and skin ulcers. The bacteria can invade through the skin to produce necrotizing fasciitis, giving them the popular name of flesh-eating bacteria. They can also cause pneumonia, damage the heart and produce widespread infection through the blood.

Among gay men in the study, MRSA was spread by skin contact, causing abscesses and infection in the buttocks and genital area.

The new strain is closely related to earlier ones. Both are known as MRSA USA300.

The strain is much more difficult to treat because it is resistant not just to methicillin, but also many more of the antibiotics used to treat the earlier strains, said Dr. Henry F. Chambers, an author of the new study.

The new strain contains a plasmid called pUSA03.

“This particular clone is resistant to at least three other drugs, clindamycin, tetracycline and mupirocin,” Dr. Chambers said in a telephone interview.

Of the alternatives recommended by the C.D.C. and the Infectious Diseases Society of America, trimethoprim-sulfamethoxazole (Bactrim), clindamycin and a tetracycline, “this strain is resistant to two of those three,” he added. “In addition, the new strain is resistant to mupirocin, which has been advocated for eradicating the strain from carriers.”

I'd stay away from home, too

http://files.newsnetz.ch/story/1/4/3/14322731/9/1.jpg

FAO - Igor:

Well if some traits are found in a higher proportion in gay men than in the wider population and have a genetic basis then in some of these cases there is something deeper going on. The outwards affected mannerisms of gay men and women has to do with culture, the underlying cause of the same sex attraction is separate. Not all gays are the Quentin Crisp type.

I do not believe that you can take 10 men or ten women and socialise them into being gay. I guess in extremis certain people will bend (pun I guess, intended) such as in jail when the wolves are about but even these people I believe quickly revert to type once out.

I think that male and female homosexuality is qualitatively different and women being more fashion conscious might find it interesting to pose as a lipstick lesbian for a week or two of their lives (“gee Brittany kissing Madonna was so hot” or that hideous Jewish hag Bernhardt was called the most beautiful woman alive or something by Madonna and various other trend deluded women.)

In some tests of sexuality that I watched (on a Horizon programme I think)men responded overwhelmingly to images of heterosexual sex whereas women showed signs of arousal at monkeys, dogs and same sex activity. Men had the opposite reaction when shown male on male activity. In that sense women are cut from baser cloth.

Also, if the propaganda is fairly consistent across society why are rates so low in the general population?

On the point of the homosexual lobby I don’t think there’s too much that you can do to eradicate homosexuality as our understanding of it stands of this moment and to imagine myself as Emperor for a second I would not set up some police task force to investigate same sex activity provided that it is behind closed doors. I would though argue that counselling is appropriately available for children and adults afflicted and perhaps some of those can be redeemed. But you don’t want a situation where a guy has a wife and kids and yet is out in bathhouses and bringing that shit home. I think that sposedly black culture has this with the ‘down lo’ (or something) phenomenon.

As for the lobby, a government should say we pity you (although you don’t want it) but won’t allow you to encroach on wider society more than is necessary. No school based propaganda, no special rights that aren’t medically derived, no rights to ape normal society with short lived marriages or same sex adoption and the like. And specifically no right to drive a coach and horses laden with gaudily dressed men through society in the shape of ‘Pride’ marches or any similar activity. You have to change your behaviour to that of society, not 98% of people having to fit in with you..

I don't think that a more genetic based view of homosexuality plays right into the hands of the gay lobby because if science does come down on the side of genetics (keeping an open mind) then it can be stamped out...Interesting take here (http://www.slate.com/id/2194232/) and here (http://www.slate.com/id/2193841/). It would be nice to think (but horrific for some) that just as - I believe?- certain US states demand tests pre marriage that in white society these can be rolled out further to include a fuller picture of your genetic heritage (race, potential ailments etc) and that information can be made available to both parties before marriage. Some would be mandatory, the rest voluntary. Survival of the fittest via conscious decision. Just have to make sure the test process not outsourced to India..

And for light relief on the topic: Former Mr Gay UK jailed for killing and eating his lover....here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/3228711/Former-Mr-Gay-UK-jailed-for-30-years-for-cooking-and-eating-flesh-of-boyfriend.html)

I'd stay away from home, too

http://files.newsnetz.ch/story/1/4/3/14322731/9/1.jpg

One might almost say a marriage of convenience. Be interested to know what sort of bar they met in..

I'd stay away from home, too

http://files.newsnetz.ch/story/1/4/3/14322731/9/1.jpg

Unbelievable that this piece of shit clown is still able to insult the T.J.B.-executed including their families. :o
What kind of administrators would be lenient by this much abuse?

If I remember correctly, I insulted the homosexual Turkish bathhouse patron and his Battle-axe.
If you can prove that he wasn't both, I'll apologize publicly.
If not, you should be calling into question your own status, here, instead

Haider may have spent time in gay circles but if he did it was probably for political purposes. I don't believe that he was gay.

If I remember correctly, I insulted the homosexual Turkish bathhouse patron and his Battle-axe.
If you can prove that he wasn't both, I'll apologize publicly.
If not, you should be calling into question your own status, here, instead

http://i.bunte.de/img/HBnbzDPa.jpg

Have you seen pictures of his beautiful daughters?
She was most likely once beautiful like them.
To protect men like Haider will show in a woman's face.
To insult his family and his memory by way of your own despicable lasciviousness is unforgivable. :o

http://i.bunte.de/img/gen/3/H/HB3HITCN_Pxgen_r_630xA.JPG

Itz. a crock. Judenmedia trying to castigate a good nationalist. I have been to Klagenfurt Austria, the best people in the Carinthia area they speak like we speak here, but they have power.

Everybody knows Haider, so why would he show up at some gay bar? ... and just before an election too.

The Jews and the left - we know the tactics.

...Have you seen pictures of his beautiful daughters?Have you seen pictures of his daughter's doll? I guess she left it out too long, under direct sunshine:

http://i.bunte.de/img/gen/3/H/HB3HITCN_Pxgen_r_630xA.JPG

One might almost say a marriage of convenience. Be interested to know what sort of bar they met in..

Likely, in a leather bar, within the vicinity of the studio filming the "Rawhide" television series:

http://files.newsnetz.ch/story/1/4/3/14322731/9/1.jpg

YouTube - Rawhide - TV Series THEME

A nigger baby doll? Fuck Haider. Damned fag. I hope it was the Austrian right who offed him.

A nigger baby doll? Fuck Haider. Damned fag. I hope it was the Austrian right who offed him.

That is a real pic? If so, it is pathetic.

No surprise. It's one of Twisto's pics :cool:

YouTube - The Cramps - Ultra twist

A nigger baby doll? Fuck Haider. Damned fag. I hope it was the Austrian right who offed him.

Everything "dolls" and "dollfaces" seems to get to you. :lulz:

The percentage of people taking Haider for a fag and the percentage
of people on VNN taking Sandor (you :D) for a fag are about the same...
So you know what to expect from the VNN right, don't you, with or without nigger baby doll?
BTW kicking VNN's WNS the way you did should accelerate your demise.

No surprise. It's one of Twisto's pics :cool:

Don't hesitate to make the other pic visible too without having to click on my link!
Germans historically never had problems with integrating niggers like Americans do. Like it or not.

Don't hesitate to make the other pic visible too without having to click on my link!
Germans historically never had problems with integrating niggers like Americans do. Like it or not.

If you're trying to imply that the Third Reich was contemplating "integrating niggers", or saw in others' attempt to do so anything less than poison, you're wrong.

Goebbels:

Wenn die Franzosen von Zivilisation reden, so erinnern wir uns jener Negerbataillone, die sie während der Besatzungszeit an den Rhein und an die Ruhr schickten, um einem der ältesten Kulturvölker des Abendlandes eine Vorstellung von der in Paris ge-meinten Zivilisation zu vermitteln.

Hitler:

Not only because she is adding to the strength of her army in a constantly increasing measure by recruiting coloured troops from the
population of her gigantic empire, but also because France is racially becoming more and more negroid, so much so that now one can
actually speak of the creation of an African State on European soil. The contemporary colonial policy of France cannot be compared with
that of Germany in the past. If France develops along the lines it has taken in our day, and should that development continue for the next
three hundred years, all traces of French blood will finally be submerged in the formation of a Euro-African Mulatto State. This would
represent a formidable and compact colonial territory stretching from the Rhine to the Congo, inhabited by an inferior race which had
developed through a slow and steady process of bastardization.

Think further of how the process of racial decomposition is debasing and in some cases even
destroying the fundamental Aryan qualities of our German people, so that our cultural creativeness as a nation is gradually becoming impotent and we are running the
danger, at least in our great cities, of falling to the level where Southern Italy is to-day. This pestilential adulteration of the blood, of which hundreds of thousands of our
people take no account, is being systematically practised by the Jew to-day. Systematically these negroid parasites in our national body corrupt our innocent fair-haired girls
and thus destroy something which can no longer be replaced in this world.


At a time when only those were estimated as intelligent who knew how to safeguard and promote
their own egotistic interests, the army was the school through which individual Germans were taught not to seek the salvation of their nation
in the false ideology of international fraternization between negroes, Germans, Chinese, French and English, etc., but in the strength and
unity of their own national being.


The Jews were responsible for bringing negroes into the Rhineland, with the ultimate idea of
bastardizing the white race which they hate and thus lowering its cultural and political level so that the Jew might dominate.

For in a world which would be composed of mongrels and
negroids all ideals of human beauty and nobility and all hopes of an idealized future for our humanity would be lost forever.

In most cases nowadays a person acquires civic rights by being born within the frontiers of a State. The race or nationality to which he may
belong plays no role whatsoever. The child of a Negro who once lived in one of the German protectorates and now takes up his residence in
Germany automatically becomes a ‘German Citizen’ in the eyes of the world.


The French people, who are becoming more and more
obsessed by negroid ideas, represent a threatening menace to the existence of the white race in Europe, because they are bound up with
the Jewish campaign for world-domination. For the contamination caused by the influx of negroid blood on the Rhine, in the very heart of
Europe, is in accord with the sadist and perverse lust for vengeance on the part of the hereditary enemy of our people, just as it suits the
purpose of the cool calculating Jew who would use this means of introducing a process of bastardization in the very centre of the European
Continent and, by infecting the white race with the blood of an inferior stock, would destroy the foundations of its independent existence.

Rosenberg:

The Blacks at present still do not possess a strong power. The Myth of blood has also awakened here, and its strength will have swollen enormously within 50 years. Until then Nordic man has to ensure that Blacks no longer exist in his states. Neither can he permit any Yellow men, Mulattos or Jews in his state. This points up the problem of America.

Today, the very last few drops of the valuable blood are finally trickling away. Over vast stretches of the south, it has entirely disappeared and is now being replaced by African elements, as was once the fate of Rome. The port cities of Toulon and Marseilles transmit unceasingly the germs of bastardisation throughout the land. An ever more degenerate populace circumambulates the Notre Dame. Negroes and mulattos stroll about on arms of white women. An exclusively Jewish quarter has arisen with new synagogues. Arrogant and repulsive bastardlike creatures pollute the race of the still beautiful women who are drawn to Paris from the French provinces. It is a modern repetition of the tragedy which long overtook Persepolis, Athens, and Rome.

The hypocrisy of the present day exploiters of humanity is without question more degrading than those attempts at slavery which in the name of Christian love have so often plunged Europe into unrest and chaos. Thanks to the preaching of humanitarianism and the doctrine of human equality, every Jew, negro and mulatto can become a citizen of equal rights in a European state; thanks to the humanitarian concern for the individual, there are hosts of luxury institutions for the incurably sick and insane in European states; thanks to humanitarianism, the confirmed criminal is regarded as merely an unfortunate without any concern for the interests of the people as a whole, is let loose again into society at the first opportunity, and not hindered in his capacity of reproduction. In the name of humanity and freedom of spirit the pornographic journalist and every dishonourable scoundrel is allowed to trade in every imaginable brothel literature; thanks to humanity negroes and Jews may marry into the Nordic race, indeed even occupy important offices.

The future German Reich will evaluate this entire question from a new viewpoint and create corresponding life forms. This consideration is also involved in evaluating racial mixing. If a German voluntarily miscegenates with negroes, Orientals, half breeds or Jews, then he is in no case entitled to legal protection—not even for his legitimate or illegitimate children who, in turn, shall not be entitled to German citizenship.

If it were to allow Poland, Czechoslovakia and others of the so called Little Entente to drop away, and if it took in hand a policy of the exclusion of negroes and Jews, and if it established a frontier conditioned by its own population, then France could also have its own culture unhindered by Germany, and it would be a strong factor in European politics.

These experts on the liberation of women time and again find themselves, along with their enthusiastic followers, in an agreeable, united front with Democracy and Marxism, all of which aim at the decomposition and destruction of our race. From the right to absolute personal freedom necessarily follows the denial of racial barriers. Our emancipated women lay claim to the right to have sexual intercourse with blacks, Jews, Chinese. Women, as the chosen preservers of the race, can also become the destroyers of all foundations of the folkhood, if permitted to complete their emancipation.

The seething movement among the Black peoples is a direct consequence of the world war. On the shoulders of the directors of the Entente Powers is the monstrous crime of having mobilised blacks and the racially mixed against the German people. After having insulted Germany for decades in many ways, the Allies threw the insult by making war against a Reich of the White race. The greatest and most direct guilt undoubtedly involves France. After the war France occupied the Rhineland, the cradle of Europe’s culture, using black troops. The military delegates in the French parliament quite openly declared that the French were a people of a hundred million, and did not have at their disposal two armies, one White and one Black, but a single army. With this programmatic declaration, French policy has equated the Black race with the White and, as 140 years ago when France introduced the emancipation of the Jews, so it stands today at the head of the bastardisation of Europe through the Blacks. It will, if this goes further, scarcely still be regarded as a European state, but rather as a forerunner of Africa, led by Jews

This decline will continue if the religion of the blood is not vitally experienced, recognised, and realised in life. A consciously Nordic European raced America, purified of Blacks and Yellows and Jews, is a thousandfold stronger than an America disintegrated by this alien blood, even if it still possess great colonies and naval strong points. England’s world policy was possible not only because of its position as an island, but because the Saxons and Normans created a united people whose centre was racially pure. Today when, in London, the Jews of the City influence policy and provide proletarian leaders, British policy has already lost its consistency. If England’s house is not cleaned, then it will not avoid a catastrophe. And, as a result, the Chinese problem arises anew.

It can proceed with youthful strength to set up the new idea of the racial state, such as some awakened Americans have already apprehended, like Grant and Stoddard. They saw the necessity for the expulsion and resettlement of the Blacks and the Yellow men, the handing over of east Asiatic possessions to Japan, the working toward a Black colonisation in central Africa, and the resettlement of the Jews to a region where this entire group can find a place.

Denn, was
einmal Hochschwung und revolutionäres Absterben eines unerträglichen Zustandes war, wie im
18. Jahrhundert, ist in alle Niederungen eines entarteten sozial-politischen Lebens
hinabgestiegen. Mit der Judenemanzipation begann der Verrat an Europa, und die
Negeremanzipation, die heute grundsätzlich zugestanden ist und bereits durch schwarze
Staatssekretäre symbolisiert wird, ist ein neuer Schritt, der, wenn er weitere politische Ergebnisse
zeitigen wird, den Untergang einer ganzen großen Kultur herbeiführen muß.

In weiterer Konsequenz erleben wir heute die politische Emnanzipation des Negertums, und es
ist zum ersten Male in der Geschichte des ganzen europäischen Kontinents möglich gewesen, daß
ein Neger in der Regierung eines europäischen Großstaates gesessen hat. Diese Lehre einer
unbegrenzten Toleranz und Freiheit führte in der praktischen Anwendung auf sozialem Gebiet zu
einer wirtschaftlichen Skrupellosikeit, zum Verlust letzten Endes aller ethischen Normen, die das
Leben der Menschen jahrhundertelang zusammen banden. Das, was wir in diesen 14 Jahren der
Nachkriegszeit in Deutschland an Korruption erlebten, war nicht ein Zufall, sondern nur die
Folge der Anerkennung bestimmter Grundsatzlosigteiten des Daseins. Und wenn wir diese
Auswirkungen in furchtbarem Ausmaß auch in anderen Staaten feststellen können, wenn wir
sehen müssen,

Das politische Symbol dieses charakterlichen und politischen Verfalls war die Tatsache, daß ein
Neger vom Senegal nicht nur französischer Abgeordneter war, sondern auch Staatssekretär in der
französischen Regierung selbst. Es war das erstemal in der Geschichte aller Völker Europas, daß
ein Neger Regierungsmitglied eines europäischen Staates werden konnte. Dieser Neger fühlte
sich in der Abgeordnetenkammer so sicher, daß er bei einem Wortwechsel mit weißen
französischen Abgeordneten einige davon kurzerhand mit Boxhieben bediente und sie zum
Fenster hinauswarf. Frankreich unternahm aber nichts gegen diese Vertreter Afrikas, bemühte
sich,
[467]
im Gegenteil, in steigerndem Maße, nicht nur sein Land mit Emigranten aus allen Völkernaufzufüllen, sondern auch die farbigen Afrikaner weiter einzuexerzieren.

Und dieses Bündnis zwischen der jüdischen Börse, entarteten französischen
Spekulanten und den bewaffneten Negern, das ist heute das furchtbare Symbol eines nationalen
Verfalls, von dessen Größe selbst wir uns vielleicht

I'll add that I have never read of any cases of animals engaging in this abherrant sexual behaviour under normal conditions in the wild. In case you're wondering, animals in captivity are not under normal conditions in the wild.

abherrant = aberrant + abhorrent. I'll have to remember that one.

I don't know what you consider to be "normal conditions in the wild", but perhaps if you read up a bit on, say, the bonobos, one of our closest animal relatives, you can enlighten yourself. Here's an excerpt from a Scientific American article bonobos are queer (http://songweaver.com/info/bonobos.html):

"Perhaps the bonobo's most typical sexual pattern, undocumented in any other primate, is genito-genital rubbing (or GG rubbing) between adult females. One female facing another clings with arms and legs to a partner that, standing on both hands and feet, lifts her off the ground. The two females then rub their genital swellings laterally together, emitting grins and squeals that probably reflect orgasmic experiences. (Laboratory experiments on stump- tailed macaques have demonstrated that women are not the only female primates capable of physiological orgasm.)

Male bonobos, too, may engage in pseudocopulation but generally perform a variation. Standing back to back, one male briefly rubs his scrotum against the buttocks of another. They also practice so-called penis-fencing, in which two males hang face to face from a branch while rubbing their erect penises together.

The diversity of erotic contacts in bonobos includes sporadic oral sex, massage of another individual's genitals and intense tongue-kissing. Lest this leave the impression of a pathologically oversexed species, I must add, based on hundreds of hours of watching bonobos, that their sexual activity is rather casual and relaxed. It appears to be a completely natural part of their group life. Like people, bonobos engage in sex only occasionally, not continuously. Furthermore, with the average copulation lasting 13 seconds, sexual contact in bonobos is rather quick by human standards."




These words are typical of a Eurofag. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=eurofag They've been so indoctrinated into liberalism that its second nature to them. Their moral sense has been entirely suppressed.

moral nonsense: "you are wrong, I am right."

It goes without saying that the only reason a faggot becomes involved with "Nazis" is the excitement, sexual or otherwise. That's why there is no room for faggots amongst us. There is no such thing as a genuine faggot.

I love it when you talk dirty.

Yeah, he's a screwball alright.

Woops just noticed an error , I meant to say head on shoulder but you know what I meant.

abherrant = aberrant + abhorrent. I'll have to remember that one.

Dragging the lake for typos now, are we?

I don't know what you consider to be "normal conditions in the wild",

Normal conditions in the wild means exactly what it says, faggot. I'm sorry you never learned English.

Sensory confusion - witness the insect and the orchid - such as leads a cat to commit infanticide because her kitten resembles her prey, or a dog to mount a male who has recently copulated with a female because he carries her scent, are not "normal conditions", and being kept in a cage in a zoo, such as the bonobos on whom this research was conducted, is certainly not "in the wild". Neither dogs nor cats, however, are natural or wild, but bred and captive, and so anti-Darwinian behaviour is possible.

Why does this matter? Lock yourself in an enclosed space and have children gawk and scientists conduct experiments on you and see if you don't go batshit crazy.

but perhaps if you read up a bit on, say, the bonobos, one of our closest animal relatives, you can enlighten yourself.

Here's an excerpt from a Scientific American article bonobos are queer (http://songweaver.com/info/bonobos.html):

De Waal's "research" was conducted on Bonobos in a San Diego zoo. The man has never seen a wild Bonobo in his life. Studies conducted by Gottfried Hohmann and Barbara Fruthon on these elusive animals, which can only be found in small numbers the dense jungles of the southern regions of the DRC, contradict his "findings".

Is anyone surprised a Dutch faggot lile de Waal wouldn't have risked his life in an African war-zone?

Just examine the "scientists" who are reporting these "discoveries" the only evidence of which is their word. Robert Gramzay is a faggot. Simon LeVay is another. Marlene Zuk is a "feminist biologist". Bruce Bagemihl claims "western science has a lot to learn from aboriginal cultures". Joan Roughgarden was formerly known as John Roughgarden. I don't make this stuff up. But they do.

Margaret Mead, anyone?

moral nonsense: "you are wrong, I am right."

Tell me, do you have five nonsenses to complement your five senses? Firstly, the sequence of words was "their moral sense has been entirely suppressed." It must be clear to anyone that sense as I used it is not the sense which is a property of sentences, the antithesis of which is nonsense.

Secondly, no such statement, ""you are wrong, I am right" was made. Now it's time for a lesson in the philosophy of language. If a word X develops to refer to a set of phenomena, those phenomena are by definition X. Moreover, whatever meaning X has is given to it by its reference. The importance of this cannot be overstated. When a logomach comes along, observes that X has a negative meaning, and then proclaims that the phenomenon is not X, and that our judgement of it as being X is arbitrary and subjective, he is doing just that: playing games of words. Such is the case with a word like degenerate. It has traditionally, that is, since its inception, been used to refer to faggotry. Hence faggotry is by definition degenerate. Hence I am in fact right, and he is wrong. See, why is the word faggot offensive? Because it refers to faggots.

Thirdly, we must set the record straight: traditional values are not a "social construct" but hereditary and evolutionary. That is, much of a person's response to, and thus judgement of, behaviours is natural. Thus the normal response to your perversions is no more arbitrary than the normal response to smelling hydrogen sulphide.

Don't hesitate to make the other pic visible too without having to click on my link!
Germans historically never had problems with integrating niggers like Americans do. Like it or not.
Yeah, yeah, amongst most normal Germans nobody bats and eye when the word neger (http://dict.tu-chemnitz.de/dings.cgi?lang=en&service=deen&opterrors=0&optpro=0&query=neger&iservice=&comment) gets used, do that around a random selection of Anglos and hysteria is very likely to ensue.

Dragging the lake for typos now, are we?It's not clear which word you meant. If aberrant, why would you include an "h", unless you were thinking of abhorent? Thus, I'm not dragging the lake for typos, but mocking the word-confusion you had in your brain. I'm sorry you never learned English.

Normal conditions in the wild means exactly what it says, faggot. I'm sorry you never learned English.

Sensory confusion - witness the insect and the orchid - such as leads a cat to commit infanticide because her kitten resembles her prey, or a dog to mount a male who has recently copulated with a female because he carries her scent, are not "normal conditions", .

Idiot. We are discussing whether homosexual behaviors occur in the wild, now you muddy the waters with "sensory confusion". Who the fuck is to know whether the dog mounted another male because he believed his friend had magically turned female as a result of intercourse, or was horny because he smelled sex and found his recently copulating friend to be an attractive target, fully aware his friend was not, in fact, female. Observing homosexual behaviors in the wild is ill-defined and difficult enough without muddying the waters any further with your with "normal conditions."

Studies conducted by Gottfried Hohmann and Barbara Fruthon on these elusive animals, which can only be found in small numbers the dense jungles of the southern regions of the DRC, contradict his "findings".

Perhaps you are referring to Social grease for females? Same-sex genital contacts in wild bonobos (http://books.google.com/books?id=KXM3F59y1jkC&pg=PA294&dq=Gottfried+Hohmann+homosexual#PPA295,M1) by Barbara Fruth and Gottfried Hohmann (Homosexual behavior in Animals, p. 295): "If invited for a hug by another female, bonobo females add lateral movements which culminate in so-called genito-genital rubbing. Same-sex encounters between males include 'french kissing', fellatio, and genital massage (de Waal! and Lanting, 1997). Homosexual interactions are .. rather common amongst bonobos."

They even freakin cite de Wall: "Same-sex encounters between males include 'french kissing', fellatio, and genital massage (de Waal! and Lanting, 1997)."

You are a fraud and a waste of my time. It’s a pity so many others are besotted with your academic veneer. I’m not even bothering with the rest of your pathetic jewy post.

You are a fraud and a waste of my time. It’s a pity so many others are besotted with your academic veneer. I’m not even bothering with the rest of your pathetic jewy post.

*Pseudo academic.

Sandor Pedophile likes to use big words to try and pose as smart and worth listening. His word is truth and whoever should ever doubt it will be hammered with 100 tons of unrelated shit that will not prove his point but try to submerge you in fancy wording.

And, of course, ignorant hicks will team up because his bullshit conception of nature and sexuality closely ressembles the one professed by religious nuts.

Edit: Let me try it too :

Did you know Baudriard's work was based on the conception that society was built on the psychosociological basis that politics could be driven by the incoherent masses while remaining under the control of a deliberate will made of stand-alone entities planning the demoralization of the lower political bases ?

Such big words just to say that the ruling class wanted to sack the will of the working/voting class and that future ruling class "elites" would do just the same heh ? That's sandor jibberish for you.

The world -and especially internet- is PACKED FULL of retarded wannabes who want to sound tough and intelligent by using words they don't know how to properly use; Because, you know, speaking like a scientific hermit makes you look cool on the internetz !

It's not clear which word you meant. If aberrant, why would you include an "h", unless you were thinking of abhorent?

"Abhorent". It never fails. Every time someone polices the spelling of others, he misspells a word himself.

Thus, I'm not dragging the lake for typos, but mocking the word-confusion you had in your brain.

"Abhorent". Talk about confusion.

I'm sorry you never learned English.

Since you can't speak it, you couldn't know.

Idiot. We are discussing whether homosexual behaviors occur in the wild, now you muddy the waters with "sensory confusion".

Actually, in this paragraph we were discussing the meaning of the phrase "normal conditions in the wild", not "whether homosexual behaviors occur in the wild".

Who the fuck is to know whether the dog mounted another male because he believed his friend had magically turned female as a result of intercourse, or was horny because he smelled sex and found his recently copulating friend to be an attractive target,

We know a considerable amount about the functions of animal brains. It seems you are unaware of how easily the processing of sensory information breaks down because they have no conceptual thought. An example of this is the confusion effect, in which predators have difficulties targeting their prey in large homogeneous groups, since their brains have evolved to target single animals. They are so "stupid" that they cannot conceive of a herd as a group of individuals. All they see is the herd. We make us of knowledge of this sort of thing on many occasions, e.g. when a horse is fooled and finally conditioned into mounting a phantom mare. Relevant here is cross-species sex, which is either the result of sensory confusion or conditioning and the mere fact that any sort of stimulation of the genitalia is pleasurable; for obvious reasons, attraction to another species could never have evolved, and thus cannot be genetic. Amongst humans, sexual acts with negroids amount to the same thing: the negroid vaguely resembles a human, and the act is conditioned through means with which we are only too familiar.

fully aware his friend was not, in fact, female.


Dogs are not conscious, therefore dogs have no awareness of such categories as "male" and "female". They are merely responding to a stimulus in the way they are "programmed" to do. That stimulus, unfortunately, is being misinterpreted.

Observing homosexual behaviors in the wild is ill-defined and difficult enough without muddying the waters any further with your with "normal conditions."

It's not ill-defined at all. An attraction to a member of the same sex resulting in a sexual act. It's just not worth discussing, since it's an evolutionary impossibility.

Perhaps you are referring to Social grease for females? Same-sex genital contacts in wild bonobos (http://books.google.com/books?id=KXM3F59y1jkC&pg=PA294&dq=Gottfried+Hohmann+homosexual#PPA295,M1) by Barbara Fruth and Gottfried Hohmann (Homosexual behavior in Animals, p. 295): "If invited for a hug by another female, bonobo females add lateral movements which culminate in so-called genito-genital rubbing. Same-sex encounters between males include 'french kissing', fellatio, and genital massage (de Waal! and Lanting, 1997). Homosexual interactions are .. rather common amongst bonobos."

They even freakin cite de Wall: "Same-sex encounters between males include 'french kissing', fellatio, and genital massage (de Waal! and Lanting, 1997)."

What's your point? I'll say what I said again: de Waal conducted research on captive Bonobos, which was contradicted by Hohmann's research. Obviously, as your Google search "Gottfried+Hohmann+homosexual" suggests, you had never heard of the man before, much less read any of his work. De Waal's claims as to the docile, matriarchal and perverted Bonobos, in his own words, "female-dominated", without "warfare" and "hunting", and "having all this sex going on" which culminates in "the more homosexuality, the more peaceful the species” are false, if not falsified. The paper you so naively cited, in fact, does just this. Hohmann alleges just five "homosexual enounters" between males, or 4% of all such encounters, only one of which involved actual sex, in contrast to de Waals endless "homosexual" orgies. As for the "female genital rubbing", you jumped the gun without informing yourself that my discussion was about faggotry, not "female genital rubbing":

You're a decadent because you accept the decadence of faggotry.

Response:

It happened and still happens everywhere else in nature,

Retort:

For the last time, Eurofag: it does not occur amongst animals in their natural condition.

Anyhow:

“It’s nothing that really strikes me.” Certainly, he and his team observe female “g-g rubbing,” which is not seen in chimpanzees, and needs to be explained. “But does it have anything to do with sex?” Hohmann asked. “Probably not. Of course, they use the genitals, but is it erotic behavior or a greeting gesture that is completely detached from sexual behavior?”

A hug? “A hug can be highly sexual or two leaders meeting at the airport. It’s a gesture, nothing else. It depends on the context.”

Furthermore, all females who allegedly engaged in this behaviour copulated with males. So much for evidence of "homosexuality". Given that the frequency of such behaviour increases with age, and that it serves no Darwinian purpose, it can only be conditioned, not congential behaviour.

You are a fraud and a waste of my time.

You're a trolling faggot and a waste of our oxygen. Make no mistake, your time is coming, and it is coming soon.

It’s a pity so many others are besotted with your academic veneer. I’m not even bothering with the rest of your pathetic jewy post.

Because you can't.

Homosexuality may be genetic (or a genetic mistake) in that many Gays have female facial features.

Sandor Pedophile likes to use big words to try and pose as smart and worth listening.

His word is truth and whoever should ever doubt it

You spoke. I doubted. You proceeded to insult me for questioning the eternal truth of your words. What a hypocrite. It is impossible to doubt without making a truth claim of ones own. And you stick to your own as obstinately as anyone.

will be hammered with 100 tons of unrelated shit that will not prove his point

When have you ever proved any of your assertions?

but try to submerge you in fancy wording.

That you think the following is an example of "fancy wording" only goes to show how dull you are.

And, of course, ignorant hicks will team up because his bullshit conception of nature and sexuality closely ressembles the one professed by religious nuts.

Of course, anything which contradicts what this Eurofag read in his fag-rag is "bullshit" and anyone who rejects his religion of humanism is a "religious nutcase".

Edit: Let me try it too :



Did you know Baudriard's work was based on the conception that society was built on the psychosociological basis that politics could be driven by the incoherent masses while remaining under the control of a deliberate will made of stand-alone entities planning the demoralization of the lower political bases ?

Such big words just to say that the ruling class wanted to sack the will of the working/voting class and that future ruling class "elites" would do just the same heh ?

Your sentence doesn't say that. In fact, your sentence contradicts itself.

Such big words

What "big words"? It's just verbose and lacking in punctuation.

That's sandor jibberish for you.

I don't sound anything like that. Maybe to a Belgian, to whom any English sentence longer than five words is incomprehensible. Don't ever again try to write a sentence longer than that either.

retarded wannabes who want to sound tough and intelligent by using words they don't know how to properly use;

How could a Belgian possibly know about the correct or incorrect use of English words?

Belief in progress is a doctrine of the slothful, a doc-
trine of the Belgians. It is the individual who relies on
his neighbors to tend to his affairs. There can be no
progress (true, that is, moral)save in the individual
and by the individual himself. But the world is com-
posed of folks who can think only in common, in bands.
Thus the Belgian societies. There are also folks who can
amuse themselves only in droves. The true hero finds
his pleasure alone.

To add to the military metaphors: Soldier of the ju-
dicial press (Bertin). The poets of strife. The littera-
teurs of the advance guard. This habitude of military
metaphors denotes minds not military, but made for dis-
cipline, that is, for conformity, minds born domesticated,
Belgian minds, which can think only in society.

Baudelaire never ceases to amaze me. Incapable of thinking for themselves! He knew these Belgians.

Homosexuality may be genetic (or a genetic mistake) in that many Gays have female facial features.

If it is genetic, we have all the more reason to kill them all.

"Abhorent". It never fails. Every time someone polices the spelling of others, he misspells a word himself.
I threw that in as an example of a real typo I knoew you would pounce on you worthless jewy maggot.


Actually, in this paragraph we were discussing the meaning of the phrase "normal conditions in the wild", not "whether homosexual behaviors occur in the wild".
Actually, I was discussing "whether homosexual behaviors occur in the wild", so WE, as in you and I, were clearly not restricting ourselves to discussing your idiotic "normal wilderness conditions."


We know a considerable amount about the functions of animal brains. It seems you are unaware of how easily the processing of sensory information breaks down because they have no conceptual thought. An example of this is the confusion effect, in which predators have difficulties targeting their prey in large homogeneous groups, since their brains have evolved to target single animals. They are so "stupid" that they cannot conceive of a herd as a group of individuals. All they see is the herd. We make us of knowledge of this sort of thing on many occasions, e.g. when a horse is fooled and finally conditioned into mounting a phantom mare. Relevant here is cross-species sex, which is either the result of sensory confusion or conditioning and the mere fact that any sort of stimulation of the genitalia is pleasurable; for obvious reasons, attraction to another species could never have evolved, and thus cannot be genetic. Amongst humans, sexual acts with negroids amount to the same thing: the negroid vaguely resembles a human, and the act is conditioned through means with which we are only too familiar.

quit digging yourself a deeper hole, the current one is more than deep enough to bury yourself in. as if anyone is expected to read your pseudo-scientific drivel.

Dogs are not conscious,
dogs are not conscious? and you are a fucking retarded moron jewy POS that doesn't know the meaning of commonplace words.

therefore dogs have no awareness of such categories as "male" and "female". They are merely responding to a stimulus in the way they are "programmed" to do.
you talk as though you know something. this is very unfortunate.


It's not ill-defined at all. An attraction to a member of the same sex resulting in a sexual act. It's just not worth discussing, since it's an evolutionary impossibility.
I agree it is not ill-defined without your muddying of the waters. So do Hohmann and Fruthon, who call homosexual interactions among bonobos 'rather common'.

What's your point? I'll say what I said again: de Waal conducted research on captive Bonobos, which was contradicted by Hohmann's research. Obviously, as your Google search "Gottfried+Hohmann+homosexual" suggests, you had never heard of the man before, much less read any of his work.
I'm hoping that you haven't read his work since your claim that you "have never read of any cases of animals engaging in this abherrant sexual behaviour under normal conditions in the wild" is what initially provoked me to post a response. Of course, since your English is abherrant, it's quite possible you "read" it.

What's your point?
my point, buffoon, is that there are many documented cases of animals engaging in homosexual behavior in the wild, so stop talking out of your butt.

De Waal's claims as to the docile, matriarchal and perverted Bonobos, in his own words, "female-dominated", without "warfare" and "hunting", and "having all this sex going on" which culminates in "the more homosexuality, the more peaceful the species” are false, if not falsified.

who the fuck cares, that's not the point. can you understand what the point is? (hint: it has to do with the claim you made which started this discussion, and is repeated above, and that we have been discussing our past few posts.)

The paper you so naively cited, in fact, does just this.
again who cares, although you are probably wrong about this as about so much else that you write.

The Hohmann alleges just five "homosexual enounters" between males, or 4% of all such encounters, only one of which involved actual sex,
this is not possible since you "have never read of any cases of animals engaging in this abherrant sexual behaviour under normal conditions in the wild," then you brought up Hohmann as someone you read about who supposedly jibed with yr claim as regards bonobos.

in contrast to de Waals endless "homosexual" orgies. As for the "female genital rubbing", you jumped the gun without informing yourself that my discussion was about faggotry, not "female genital rubbing"

who gives a fuck you female genital.

Anyhow:

[I]“It’s nothing that really strikes me.” Certainly, he and his team observe female “g-g rubbing,” which is not seen in chimpanzees, and needs to be explained. “But does it have anything to do with sex?” Hohmann asked. “Probably not. Of course, they use the genitals, but is it erotic behavior or a greeting gesture that is completely detached from sexual behavior?”

yes, you say yr not concerned about female gental rubbing, and then you go on about it. now open your mouth wide so I can give you a good and proper asexual greeting gesture.

Furthermore, all females who allegedly engaged in this behaviour copulated with males. So much for evidence of "homosexuality".
ah yes their copulation with males means their same-sex genital stimulation does not qualify as homosexual behavior. itz so obvious, itz.

Given that the frequency of such behaviour increases with age, and that it serves no Darwinian purpose, it can only be conditioned, not congential behaviour.
you get the Darwin award.

I do not believe that you can take 10 men or ten women and socialise them into being gay.

Of a group of 10 boys, do you think it would be possible to lure 3 of them into bisexuality? And what if, out of those 3, one of them decides that he's not just "bi," but "gay"? And what if none of those 3 boys would have become bi or "gay" if they had never been lured into it? Do you think that's at least plausible?

If you can entice people who 50 years ago would not have been race mixers to race mix, then you can entice people who 50 years ago would not have been homosexuals to be homosexuals.

You remind me of the racialists who claim that children are born racist. Well, I don't believe that; I think a child is far more likely to accept an outsider as a peer than an adult is. But even if it were true, it's obvious by looking around that people can be "socialized" into not being racist.

The definition of perversion is "the act of turning or condition of being turned to what is wrong; change to what is unnatural, abnormal, or wrong." I maintain that homosexuality is a perversion. How do one's healthy sexual instincts become perverted? There's no simple, one-size-fits-all answer to that, but I believe that it is possible to be socialized, or rather, conditioned, into it. Pavlov managed to train dogs so that they drooled at the sound of a bell. Conditioning humans is a bit more complicated, but the basic principles are the same. People who don't have a strong sense of sexual identity (often people who grew up in broken or dysfunctional homes, without a proper pair of parents to emulate), of right and wrong when it comes to sexual matters (for example, people who were molested as children or teenagers, who grew up in very permissive, liberal households, or who were raised by sexual deviants, like bisexual actress Jodie Foster), or have some kind of an axe to grind with traditional morality (often people who grew up in very strict religious households), will fall prey more easily.

Comparing homosexuality to another perversion like necrophilia, one could ask the same question: How could someone's sexuality become twisted to the point of getting off on corpses? And yet, it happens (though not with anywhere near the same frequency as homosexuality, thank God). Surely no one is going to argue that necrophiles are "born that way"? So how did they get to be that way?

So far, no one has provided any good reason for why homosexuality should be treated as a special case that shouldn't be classed with all the other perversions.

Also, if the propaganda is fairly consistent across society why are rates so low in the general population?

You can't make that statement. There are no statistics that can reliably tell us what percentage of the population homosexuals have been in a given society over say, two or three centuries. Was there perhaps more homosexual activity in the Weimar Republic than when the Nazis were in power? I'm strongly inclined to think so, though I don't believe the data needed to prove it exist.

From what I see around me, there is a tremendous rise in bisexuality among tweens, teens, and young adults, and much as marijuana will lead some to try harder drugs, bisexuality is often the first step towards homosexuality. I'm positive that if you took a survey, most "gays" would tell you they went through a period of bisexuality before "discovering" that they were "gay."

And I say bisexuality is a "soft drug," but really, widespread bisexuality is just as problematic as widespread homosexuality. This is all part of the larger campaign of disintegrating people's identities, of eroding tradition, and of encouraging individuals to put their own selfish pursuits or their base animal instincts above having and raising a family.

If you have an agenda to normalize homosexuality, you're not going to start by taking the most loathsome AIDS-infected queers or the ugliest man-hating bulldykes and holding them up as paragons of the "gay" lifestyle. You might start, instead, by promoting female bisexuality, since few males or even females are likely to object (as you've pointed out, fewer females than males seem to be viscerally disgusted by homosexuality, and many men get hard-ons watching pretty girls getting it on with each other). After that, you start feminizing men; getting them to wear make-up, grow their hair long, wear earrings, pierce their nipples, etc. We've already seen that with pop stars ranging from Alice Cooper to Marilyn Manson. After that you start pushing male bisexuality. Once bisexuality becomes accepted (as it is fast becoming) and the lines have been sufficiently blurred, then you start pushing homosexuality full force: setting up "GLBT" clubs in junior high schools, producing TV shows aimed at tweens featuring homosexual characters (e.g. Buffy the Vampire Slayer), popularizing the wearing of rainbow-striped scarves and socks among teenage girls, etc. That's how it's done. You turn the heat up gradually so the frog doesn't realize it's being boiled.

I don't see the categories of "gay" and "straight" as black and white like you do. At one extreme, you'll have a straight man who literally wants to puke at the sight of two men kissing each other. At the other end, you'll have a fag who wants to puke at the sight of Miss October spreading her gams. In between these two extremes, there's a vast grey area, and I suspect that many who engage in homosexual activities fall somewhere into this middle.

Something that is not known to most people but that I was privy to because one of my wife's relatives is a fag hag and one of my childhood friend's sisters is a dyke is that fags will sometimes sleep with women when they're desperate and dykes will sometimes sleep with men when they're desperate. These people don't regard themselves as bisexual. It's also not unheard of for people to change sexual orientation after many years of claiming to be one thing. Homosexuality would be most accurately defined as a preference for the same sex, which can change over time, not as an absolute category.

In some tests of sexuality that I watched (on a Horizon programme I think)men responded overwhelmingly to images of heterosexual sex whereas women showed signs of arousal at monkeys, dogs and same sex activity.

The results of those tests contradict your earlier statement, "I do not believe that you can take 10 men or ten women and socialise them into being gay." If women show signs of arousal at images of same sex activity, then it's entirely within the realm of possibility to socialize them into being "gay" (especially when combined with a heavy dose of feminism).

Leaving aside the question of male homosexuality for a second: If we are agreed that women can be more easily influenced in this regard than men, isn't that a good enough reason in itself to start cracking skulls?

Well if some traits are found in a higher proportion in gay men than in the wider population and have a genetic basis then in some of these cases there is something deeper going on.

Traits like what? Higher/lower IQ? Broader noses? Smaller ears? Let's be brutally honest about what it is fags do, since the media rarely is so candid about it: they suck each other's cocks. They fuck each other up the ass. Sometimes they drink each other's urine, eat each other's shit, or insert foreign objects into their anuses. Beyond the lispiness and so on (which are not biologically based IMO), these are the only "traits" homos have which distinguish them from other men. You think a predilection for having another man shove his fist in your anus is an inherited trait? I say it's a perversion.

If you were to say that certain personality types were more likely to become homosexuals than others, I could accept that and would agree with it. And it's clear that personality and temperament are to a large extent inherited. But there isn't anything inherently "gay" about those personalities. I have known at least two individuals who have become "gay" that I am convinced would not have if we didn't have a culture that constantly talks about homosexuality and tells people it's an acceptable alternative to heterosexuality.

It's well established that many drug addicts have what you might call an addictive personality. If they weren't addicted to, say, heroin, they would move on to something else, like alcohol, cocaine, speed, or whatever. The problem is not the physical addiction to a particular substance; the problem is the psychological addiction, the person's addictive personality.

Fags aren't just like addicts, fags are addicts. Homosexuality is a vice.

Perhaps drug addicts were born with a predisposition towards addiction, but that doesn't mean they were "born to be heroin addicts," and if their lives had gone differently (less stress, different peer group, inability to access drugs, etc), there's a good chance they would not have become addicts. The same applies to homos.

From an article (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=950DE1DF1138F93BA25752C0A965948260) discussing a 1983 study on "addictive personalities":

The report finds that there are several ''significant personality factors'' that can contribute to addiction:

- Impulsive behavior, difficulty in delaying gratification, an antisocial personality and a disposition toward sensation seeking.

- A high value on nonconformity combined with a weak commitment to the goals for achievement valued by the society.

- A sense of social alienation and a general tolerance for deviance.

- A sense of heightened stress. This may help explain why adolescence and other stressful transition periods are often associated with the most severe drug and alcohol problems.

That could almost as easily be describing the traits associated with a "homosexual personality." It's worth noting that a very high percentage of fags and dykes also have drug and alcohol problems. Maybe the homosexuality and the substance abuse stem from the same personality disorder?

On the point of the homosexual lobby I don’t think there’s too much that you can do to eradicate homosexuality as our understanding of it stands of this moment and to imagine myself as Emperor for a second I would not set up some police task force to investigate same sex activity provided that it is behind closed doors.

In a prior post, I said the goal was to eradicate the homosexual lobby, not homosexuality itself, yet here you are conflating the two for some reason. But yes, I agree. There's also little we can do to eradicate child molestation but that doesn't mean for a second that we have to legalize it or that we can't take reasonable steps to minimize and prevent it. The issue here is whether we should have a society that condones homosexuality (like we do now), or one that doesn't. That's the only subject under discussion here.

I want dykes and fags to go back into their closets and stay there. I want them to keep their hands off my kids. That is all that I am advocating.

But you don’t want a situation where a guy has a wife and kids and yet is out in bathhouses and bringing that shit home.

Wouldn't be a problem if we closed down the bathhouses and cracked down on any other pick-up spots. That wouldn't be hard to do and was in fact the norm until the "gay rights" movement started picking up steam in the 1970's.

You're also ignoring the fact that men who lead double lives like this are more likely to be bisexual than "gay."

I don't think that a more genetic based view of homosexuality plays right into the hands of the gay lobby because if science does come down on the side of genetics (keeping an open mind) then it can be stamped out...

Perhaps it could lead to that, but the homosexual lobby isn't thinking that far ahead. Their reasoning goes something like: if homosexuality is genetically based, then condemning someone for being a homosexual is as bigoted as condemning someone for the color of their skin; after all, there's nothing you can do about the color of your skin. They're trying to elevate queers to a victim group comparable to blacks, browns, Jews, and women, and have largely succeeded. It's only a matter of time before queers get their own holocaust museums.

You say if we ever found this elusive "gay" gene, homosexuality would be stamped out, but you're wrong; in our current politically correct climate, homosexuality would not be stamped out, any more than the government would be willing to start re-implementing eugenics programs. These days, you're not even allowed to say that aborting retards might be a desirable thing, let alone suggesting that queers don't have the right to be born. The homosexual lobby is banking on this politically correct climate to continue, since obviously, it cannot thrive without it.

...keeping an open mind...

Hey, I have, or more accurately, had an open mind about this. I used to believe that homos were "born that way," just as I used to believe in the holocaust and the equality of races. But after a couple of decades of observing homos, I came to the conclusion that the theory doesn't really fit the facts, and that the people promoting it are doing so for political reasons, not because there's a scientific consensus. My 16-year-old niece -- who AFAIC is too young to know shit from chocolate -- goes around repeating that it's been "proven" that queers are "born that way"; she sure as hell didn't get that notion from reading science journals.

Interesting take here (http://www.slate.com/id/2194232/) and here (http://www.slate.com/id/2193841/).

I'll take a look at your links, but I remain skeptical about what scientists have to say about this in our current politically correct climate. Pick up any abnormal psychology textbook from the late 60's/early 70's and you'll see homosexuality listed as a disorder right alongside necrophilia and bestiality; the reason that has changed wasn't because of any scientific breakthrough, it was because of pressure from the homosexual lobby. Scientists and therapists who have said they believe homosexuality to be curable have been ridiculed, harassed, and intimidated almost as severely as revisionists or people doing race/intelligence research.

I'll grant you one thing, though: I have, on rare occasions, seen men that "looked" queer. It had nothing to do with how they were dressed or their mannerisms or body language; there was just something in their facial features that made them look queer. So I'm willing to consider the possibility that some homosexual men may have been "born that way." However, if such is the case, they are only a small fraction of the homosexual population.

The following is from the World Book Encyclopedia article on homosexuality. It's a surprisingly fair and balanced survey of what is currently known (and alleged) about this subject, and provides some useful definitions:

Homosexuality is sexual attraction chiefly to individuals of the same sex. People -- especially men -- who are homosexual are also called gay. Many female homosexuals call themselves lesbians. Scientists are not sure how many people are homosexual. Since the late 1940's, various estimates suggest that 1 to 10 percent of men and women are attracted chiefly to people of their own sex.

Some people are not entirely homosexual or heterosexual (sexually attracted chiefly to the other sex). Some individuals have homosexual experiences but marry people of the other sex and have children. Many people who consider themselves heterosexual have participated in homosexual acts at some time in their lives. People who are strongly attracted to members of both sexes are called bisexual. A person's primary sexual attraction is also called sexual orientation.

Young people may explore their sexual development with members of their own sex. For example, many young people masturbate (pleasurably handle their own sex organs). Boys may sometimes handle the sex organs of other boys. Girls may also stimulate each other. Such activity rarely develops into a homosexual orientation.

Some homosexual behavior results from unavailability of the other sex. For example, people in prison who spend long periods separated from the other sex may turn to same-sex partners. Such homosexual interest may not continue once other partners become available.

The causes of sexual orientation are not fully understood. Some experts believe all people are born with a potential to be bisexual. But most people develop a strong attraction primarily for sexual partners of one sex.

Most experts think that a number of factors can influence sexual orientation. Some researchers believe that sexual orientation results chiefly from biological factors. One such factor may be the effect of hormones on the developing brain of a fetus before birth. Some scientists also think particular genes (units of heredity) may be involved. Other researchers believe that sexual orientation is determined primarily by social and psychological factors. According to one theory, children learn through pleasurable sexual experiences to become increasingly attracted to one of the sexes or to both sexes.

As for the lobby, a government should say we pity you (although you don’t want it) but won’t allow you to encroach on wider society more than is necessary. No school based propaganda, no special rights that aren’t medically derived, no rights to ape normal society with short lived marriages or same sex adoption and the like. And specifically no right to drive a coach and horses laden with gaudily dressed men through society in the shape of ‘Pride’ marches or any similar activity. You have to change your behaviour to that of society, not 98% of people having to fit in with you.

We may not agree on the causes of homosexuality, but at least we agree on what needs to be done.

And for light relief on the topic: Former Mr Gay UK jailed for killing and eating his lover....here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/3228711/Former-Mr-Gay-UK-jailed-for-30-years-for-cooking-and-eating-flesh-of-boyfriend.html)

There was a similar case in Germany a few years ago. The guy's name was Armin Meiwes. I just read an old article about it. I'm going to go hug the toilet now.

http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/politik/2008/10/22/haider/oesterreich-tuschelt-ueber-sein-doppelleben.html

http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/politik/fotos/2008-10-22-joerg-haiders-doppelleben/haider-auf-party-10641555-mfbq,templateId=renderScaled,property=Bild,height=500.jpg

Expressing indifference, in earlier days:

http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/politik/fotos/2008-10-13-joerg-haider/woerthersee-10571716-mfb-quer,templateId=renderScaled,property=Bild,height=500.jpg

He must have married Benny Hill in drag, just to please mom:

http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/politik/fotos/2008-10-13-joerg-haider/jungpolitiker-haider-10571791-mfb-quer,templateId=renderScaled,property=Bild,height=500.jpg

Who are those grinning men with cute scarves?:

http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/fotos/2008/2008-10-11-joerg-haider-letzte-stunden/haider-party-letzter-abend-4-10563147-mfbq,templateId=renderScaled,property=Bild,height=500.jpg

MmmmmHmmm:

http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/politik/2008/10/17/haider-letztes-foto/haider-in-einer-szene-bar-10613373-mfbqf,templateId=renderScaled,property=Bild,width=900.jpg

Just listened to an 21 minutes interview with an Austrian emeritus police-man and expert for the section fighting terror in the eighties.

The interviewer introduced him as "Mr.S".

The following things transpire:

1. Mr S knew Haider very well and was present at several events
where Dr. Haider was present
2. Haider never got seriously drunk simply because of his tight time schedule
3. Haider would have had less than an hour to pump himself full with alcohol.
4. The time before the alcohol gets into the bloodstream must be considered.
5. Haider's body was cremated less than a week
after the so called accident in order to not being able to investigate,
what really had happened.
6. The hole above the driver's seat looks exactly like the one in a terror
attack in 1982 (Mr S. was part of the investigation team) in which the
person in the back seat was instantly killed .
A very powerful explosive in a film roll was placed just above the person
to be killed (on the roof). The two other people traveling
in the same car stayed without injury.
7. The only acceptable way to find out about the many incongruencies would be
an independent investigation without participation of those who serve
in one way or other the Austrian government.


Hathorne:
Itz. a crock. Judenmedia trying to castigate a good nationalist

The importance of this terrorist attack makes those who get out of control
over low nigger behavior or the viewing of a nigger-doll look pretty stupid, I'd say.

http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/politik/fotos/2008-10-13-joerg-haider/woerthersee-10571716-mfb-quer,templateId=renderScaled,property=Bild,height=500.jpg

Nice tatas.

Nice tatas.

So?
Finished taking your shit? :o

I think a pretty strong case could be put together that male homosexuals do pose a threat to public health, among other things.

Homosexual men boost increase in syphilis rate
By Joyce Howard Price
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
Published March 17, 2006

The syphilis rate among U.S. men soared 81 percent between 2000 and 2004, primarily as a result of increases in reported cases among homosexual males, federal health officials reported yesterday.

While the rate among men nearly doubled during that time -- from 2.6 per 100,000 to 4.7 -- the syphilis rate among women fell from 1.7 to 0.8 per 100,000 from 2000 to 2003. It remained stable in 2004, marking the end of a 13-year decline.

"The vast majority of the increase is attributable to a resurgence of syphilis among men who have sex with men ... syphilis rates continue to increase among [this group]," said Dr. J.F. Beltrami and other authors of a report from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's National Center for HIV, STD and TB Prevention.

They also pointed out that sexually active bisexual men "likely contribute to syphilis among women."

Of the nearly 8,000 cases reported in 2004, "approximately 84 percent occurred among men," they wrote, and the CDC estimates that nearly 65 percent of those cases resulted from men having sex with other men.

The authors also said reported increases in incidence of syphilis among homosexual behavior have been characterized "by high rates of HIV co-infection, high-risk sexual behavior and use of drugs such as methamphetamines."

"Syphilis increases have occurred among [homosexual and bisexual men] who have met sex partners in Internet chat rooms," the researchers said. They stressed the need for more study of how the Internet affects the spread of sexually transmitted diseases and how it might be used as an STD prevention tool.

A separate analysis in the CDC's Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report found that use of methamphetamines is also an HIV risk factor among heterosexual men. Using data from a large population-based study of heterosexuals aged 18 to 35 living in five northern California counties, researchers found that those who had recently used meth were more likely to "practice high-risk sex" than nonusers.

High-risk sex included having casual or anonymous sex partners, multiple sex partners and partners who used injectable drugs. While 15.5 percent of meth users said they had received drugs or money in exchange for sex, only 3.5 percent of nonusers said they had ever done so.

In the syphilis study, CDC investigators said that from 2001 to 2004, disease rates were higher among blacks and Hispanics than among whites. In 2003, the rate among blacks was 5.1 times higher than whites and was 5.6 times higher in 2004.

"But substantial increases occurred only among black men," not black women, the authors wrote.

By region, the South saw the highest increase in syphilis rates between 2003 and 2004: 16 percent. That marked the first time since 1991 that syphilis rates increased in that region of the country.

"In each region, [primary and secondary] syphilis rates among black men and women exceeded those of whites and Hispanics," they concluded.

The national rate of primary and secondary syphilis climbed 8 percent -- from 2.5 per 100,000 population to 2.7 -- between 2003 and 2004, marking the fourth consecutive annual rise in this sexually transmitted disease, which health officers are focused on eliminating.

So?
Finished taking your shit? :o

"Hugging the toilet" refers to puking, not shitting. :puke:

"Hugging the toilet" refers to puking, not shitting. :puke:

What an ugly expression!

Hugging is such a beautiful thing.

Why Isn't Homosexuality Considered A Disorder On The Basis Of Its Medical Consequences?
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/narth/medconsequences.html

I worked as an RN for several years during the eighties and nineties at Stanford University Medical Center, where I saw some of the damage homosexuals do to their bodies with some of their sexual practices. [...]

I have long been concerned about the serious medical consequences which result from the gay-affirming attitudes that predominate in the San Francisco Bay Area. For example, I knew personally a prominent dermatologist, a dentist, an engineer, and a hairdresser that died in their mid-forties of infectious diseases related to their homosexual behavior patterns. I know of many others that have died young as a result of living a gay lifestyle.

The co-author of my own medical reference book, Saunders Pocket Reference for Nurses, was the head of the surgery department at Stanford. She related case histories of homosexuals needing emergency surgery due to "fisting," "playing with toys," (inserting objects into the rectum) and other bizarre acts. I am certain--in light of my clinical experience, and since doing [a] considerable amount of studying about it since that time--that homosexuality is neither normal nor benign; rather, it is a lethal behavioral addiction...

As far as I know, there is no other group of people in the United States that dies of infectious diseases in their mid-forties except practicing homosexuals. This, to me, is tragic, when we know that homosexuality can be prevented, in many cases, or substantially healed in adulthood when there is sufficient motivation and help.

[T]here are lethal consequences of engaging in the defining features of male homosexuality--that is, promiscuity and anal intercourse.

[...]

The risk of anal cancer soars for those engaging in anal intercourse. According to one report, it rises by an astounding 4000%, and doubles again for those who are HIV positive.

Can anyone refute that anal intercourse tears the rectal lining of the receptive partner, regardless of whether a condom is worn, and the subsequent contact with fecal matter leads to a host of diseases?

Diseases to which active homosexuals are vulnerable can be classified as follows:

Classical sexually transmitted diseases (gonorrhea, infections with Chlamydia trachomatis, syphilis, herpes simplex infections, genital warts, pubic lice, scabies); enteric diseases (infections with Shigella species, Campylobacter jejuni, Entamoeba histolytica, Giardia lamblia, ["gay bowel disease"], Hepatitis A, B, C, D, and cytomegalovirus); trauma (related to and/or resulting in fecal incontinence, hemorroids, anal fissure, foreign bodies lodged in the rectum, rectosigmoid tears, allergic proctitis, penile edema, chemical sinusitis, inhaled nitrite burns, and sexual assault of the male patient); and the acquired immunodeficiency syndrome (AIDS).

Can anyone refute that increased morbidity and mortality is an unavoidable result of male-with-male sex--not to mention the increased rates of alcoholism, drug abuse, depression, suicide and other maladies that so often accompany a homosexual lifestyle? People with this whole cluster of behavior patterns are somehow "normal"?

My primary question is: why isn't homosexuality considered a disorder on the basis of its medical consequences alone?

A careful reading of the articles opposing reorientation therapy reveals their authors' rationale that they find such therapy to be "oppressive" to those who do not want therapy.

We know that Ronald Gold of the Gay Activist's Alliance, an openly gay man, was a member of the committee to remove homosexuality as a diagnosis in 1973. We know that gay activists were disrupting meetings, threatening doctors, and using other strong-arm tactics to get their way at that time.

We also know that homosexual activists like Dr. Richard Isay in the APA have pressed for resolutions to punish therapists for practicing reorientation therapy, and that threats of lawsuits appear to be the main reason the APA has not implemented his proposals.

We know homosexual advocates in the APA continue to suppress debate about Spitzer's new study documenting that sexual orientation can be changed (and to suppress debate about other supporting studies).

It seems to me the situation in this country will only get worse until the APA is held directly responsible for what is arguably their criminal negligence. In failing to reckon with serious medical consequences of the homosexual behavior pattern, they are harming our whole society, and especially the upcoming generation.

The recent decision by the American Academy of Pediatrics to endorse gay adoptions is yet another disturbing example of how the decision to "normalize" homosexuality by the APA has had a broad ripple effect.

What an ugly expression!

Hugging is such a beautiful thing.

I'd like to give the chick with the nice tatas a hug. :D

Baudelaire never ceases to amaze me. Incapable of thinking for themselves! He knew these Belgians.

If nothing else, the Belgians make good beer.

If you can entice people who 50 years ago would not have been race mixers to race mix, then you can entice people who 50 years ago would not have been homosexuals to be homosexuals.

You remind me of the racialists who claim that children are born racist. Well, I don't believe that; I think a child is far more likely to accept an outsider as a peer than an adult is. But even if it were true, it's obvious by looking around that people can be "socialized" into not being racist.

What I mean by socialisation is if none of us are any more likely than any other to become gay (not genetically wired) and if the propaganda that you speak of promoting homosexuality is well spread across society why aren’t more people susceptible?

In my school year I can think of only two people that quite obviously and quite early on showed signs of homosexuality that at least in one case later developed into the full blown thing (noticed on Friends Reunited search of my ex school colleagues that he’s now a flower arranger). This was obvious before the onset of puberty but became more obvious as that process developed.

I’m sure that there might be a ‘window’ during the process of puberty when some disorientation occurs (incubated sometimes by things such as same sex boarding schools) but at the end of the day it still resolves into a tiny fraction in an overall population.

Why aren’t more people ‘coming out’ if we are just tabula rasa before society’s bootprint on our character?

I’m not so sure about the race mixer analogy. I think a man to fu**ing a Thai for instance (as some nationalists on here have been busted on) is less against the grain that a man fucking a man. I could conceive it possible to ‘get wood’ in the former situation (although verboten) but a man? Never.

On your point of being socialised into not being racist that’s true but that trusty steed Kevin MacDonald has a very interesting chapter in Cultural Insurrections (Psychology & White Ethnocentrism and the subchapter Ethnocentrism and its Control) that makes a distinction between our implicit cognitive processing system and our explicit processing cognitive system.

The former is more core, the latter a more recent evolutionary development. So our more ancient subcortical brain is more inclined to more natural behaviour and the more recent prefrontal cortex to more conscious processing that takes into account our modern society and its taboos.

The more reflexive older brain makes us live more in white neighbourhoods, eat, drink, socialise white but the more recent PFC brain doesn’t allow us to interpret this as ‘white behaviour.’ So yes it seems society can place those taboos and that framework in susceptible minds but it can’t vanquish the impetus of the underlying inclination.

Perhaps a strong dose of mind-fuck a la the scene in Clockwork Orange with Malcolm McDowell might make someone have sexual attraction disorientation but I still think that sexuality is such a core part of human beings that it’s not tamperable with in quite that way.

As I said keeping an open mind.

From what I see around me, there is a tremendous rise in bisexuality among tweens, teens, and young adults, and much as marijuana will lead some to try harder drugs, bisexuality is often the first step towards homosexuality. I'm positive that if you took a survey, most "gays" would tell you they went through a period of bisexuality before "discovering" that they were "gay."

Sort of agree on this. I see more where I go out for a drink post my kickboxing class. In the regular bar there are some that turn up which would have been rarer than hen’s teeth in the past. They are younger than I (twenties as opposed to thirties) but then again this is a trendy neighbourhood so not sure. Maybe as the age-old gay taboo has lifted the closet opens. I also know of gay people too who have had sex with women but are now gay.. Perhaps one might argue that they attempted to follow society or their parent’s norms and then reverted to type.


The results of those tests contradict your earlier statement, "I do not believe that you can take 10 men or ten women and socialise them into being gay." If women show signs of arousal at images of same sex activity, then it's entirely within the realm of possibility to socialize them into being "gay" (especially when combined with a strong dose of feminism).

OK, I do think that women are somewhat different and I am mainly arguing from the male side I guess. But I still have known seen more male gays in my lifetime than women in my wider social network. One point made though in a book I read sometime past (pop science: Why Men Don’t Iron) is that homosexual rates are quite consistent globally. From your argument you might expect wild variations between more conservative societies and more liberal societies but (if memory serves) this is not the case. ‘Gay’ is a very similar proportion everywhere it’s tested for: 1% - 4% depending and with a margin of error factored in.

Traits like what? Higher/lower IQ? Broader noses? Smaller ears?

Like hair whorl patterns, index finger sizes, chromosomes, female type brains in males, hormone secretion etc (some elements of this in links supplied)

be brutally honest about what it is fags do

It’s a sad situation. While at college I worked in a restaurant and the deputy manager shared a house with his male tribe. I understand they had a cage in the sitting room and a whipping post. It’s repugnant and that was another point in the aforementioned book – the high levels of repugnance that people exhibit in questionnaires even when topped off with a ‘provided they keep it to themselves’. I think this shows an inbuilt horror of such things. I also think the way homosexuality plays out can be separated from the underlying trait itself so the inclination is inbuilt and the activity is developed.

It’s a weird western society – just rec’d a email from my girlfriend “Walking down Streatham High Road I just saw a female dwarf with a goatee beard.”

The issue here is whether we should have a society that condones homosexuality (like we do now), or one that doesn't. That's the only subject under discussion here. I want dykes and fags to go back into their closets and stay there. I want them to keep their hands off my kids. That is all that I am advocating.

We certainly agree on this up to the point of forcing them back into the closet. Won’t happen. I suspect you mean ‘keep a very low profile’. Obscenity laws might be a way to do this. No fucking in the hedgerows or parades, no books in the school library or pro sex-ed classes. No marriages, adoptions and the like. I still think that they’ll find a way to do what gay men do – be promiscuous) (internet and the like). Just penalties would apply if it encroached on normal society.

You say if we ever found this elusive "gay" gene, homosexuality would be stamped out, but you're wrong; in our current politically correct climate, homosexuality would not be stamped out

No one apart from perhaps a gay person wants a gay child. One doesn’t pour years of stress and money (as well as love) into something to end up in a biological cul de sac.

Therefore if a test is found people would utilise it and as more did the costs would become within reach for all. Positive eugenics.

My 16-year-old niece -- who AFAIC is too young to know shit from chocolate -- goes around repeating that it's been "proven" that queers are "born that way"

From my understanding I believe that the gay lobby in large part does actually adhere to the Kinsey theory – 10% but also that there’s a sliding scale – very straight< > very gay. Seems to be what you are arguing? They argue this to say ‘you are not so different than us’.

So maybe she has learned that but interpretations come after the facts. Paedophiles might argue they are born that way (let’s not get into that) but that doesn’t mean that we just say OK great, get on with it. I think your links as to various diseases and unhealthy living would be good ammunition in that argument just as an opener. As race and sex based biological science becomes even more mainstream ways to interpret this will be developed by elites to prevent upsetting the applecart. Similar to Goebbels and AH's points on arguing with Juden same applies I guess a lot of smoke and mud in your eye but hopefully we can cut through that and in this particular case I see no reason we can't, it's fairly simple and I think sensibilities in the wider population are on our side, especially if and when a genetic (or learned) element is found.

You know I think that bi-sexuality is even rarer than full blown homosexuality which is contra to what you are saying. I do believe as opposed to Kinsey and the rest that while there are fag hags and while some men may marry them (Elton John – Renata, Gest - Minnelli) that this is for a social reason and they aren’t ‘bisexual’ and that one is (in the majority of cases) oriented to same sex or opposite sex encounters.

Not sure what to make of your gay man on gay woman examples. If I was desperate I wouldn’t to paraphrase Woody Alan’s quip (who wd guess he’d be quoted here) consider that I’d doubled my chance of a date that evening.

I’ll look into the bi issue as having this discussion is making me formulate my views more explicitly - it’s not a subject I usually spend a lot of time on as you can imagine..

If nothing else, the Belgians make good beer.

Yum (http://www.belgo-restaurants.co.uk/) Belgos and Bierodrome. Probably enough to make a true 'Belgian' shudder though.

Mind you what is a true Belgian, seems the state of Belgium might not be with us for too much longer as outlined in occasional articles here: http://www.brusselsjournal.com

What I mean by socialisation is if none of us are any more likely than any other to become gay (not genetically wired) and if the propaganda that you speak of promoting homosexuality is well spread across society why aren’t more people susceptible?

On what data are you basing your supposition that not a lot of people are susceptible?

Are you asking me why we aren't all equally susceptible? If so, I already explained that in my post.

From Wikipedia:

Looking for a willing victim, Meiwes posted an advertisement at a website, The Cannibal Cafe, whose disclaimer mentions the distinction between reality and fantasy. Meiwes's post stated that he was "looking for a well-built 18 to 30-year-old to be slaughtered and then consumed". Bernd Jürgen Brandes responded to the advertisement. Bernd Jürgen Brandes was known for his interest in crossdressing. Many other people responded to the advertisement, but many backed out and none were forced to do anything they didn't want to do by Meiwes.

As is known from a videotape the two made when they met on December 25, 2001 in Meiwes' home in the small village of Roteburg, Meiwes amputated Brandes' penis and the two men attempted to eat the penis together before Brandes was killed. Brandes had insisted that Meiwes attempt to bite his penis off. This did not work, so Meiwes used a knife. Brandes apparently tried to eat some of his own penis raw, but could not because it was too tough and, as he put it, "chewy". Meiwes then sautéed the penis in a pan with salt, pepper, and garlic, but by then it was too burned to be consumed. According to journalists who saw the video (which has not been made public), Brandes may already have been too weakened from blood loss to actually eat any of his penis. Meiwes read a Star Trek book for three hours whilst his voluntary victim was bleeding to death in the bath. Meiwes apparently gave him large quantities of alcohol and pain killers, 30 sleeping pills and a bottle of Schnapps. Finally, he kissed him once and killed him in a room that he had built in his house for this purpose, The Slaughter Room. After stabbing Brandes to death in the throat, he hung the body on a meathook and tore hunks of flesh from it; he even tried to grind the bones to use as flour. The whole scene was recorded on the two-hour video tape. Meiwes ate the body over the next 10 months, storing body parts in his freezer under pizza boxes and consuming up to 20 kg of the flesh.

One doesn’t pour years of stress and money (as well as love) into something to end up in a biological cul de sac.

If that's the case, why are so many Western couples adopting non-white babies? Aren't non-white babies also a biological cul de sac?

You know I think that bi-sexuality is even rarer than full blown homosexuality which is contra to what you are saying.

Why do you think bisexuality is rarer than full blown homosexuality?

From Wikipedia:

Looking for a willing victim, Meiwes posted an advertisement at a website, The Cannibal Cafe, whose disclaimer mentions the distinction between reality and fantasy. Meiwes's post stated that he was "looking for a well-built 18 to 30-year-old to be slaughtered and then consumed". Bernd Jürgen Brandes responded to the advertisement. Bernd Jürgen Brandes was known for his interest in crossdressing. Many other people responded to the advertisement, but many backed out and none were forced to do anything they didn't want to do by Meiwes.

As is known from a videotape the two made when they met on December 25, 2001 in Meiwes' home in the small village of Roteburg, Meiwes amputated Brandes' penis and the two men attempted to eat the penis together before Brandes was killed. Brandes had insisted that Meiwes attempt to bite his penis off. This did not work, so Meiwes used a knife. Brandes apparently tried to eat some of his own penis raw, but could not because it was too tough and, as he put it, "chewy". Meiwes then sautéed the penis in a pan with salt, pepper, and garlic, but by then it was too burned to be consumed. According to journalists who saw the video (which has not been made public), Brandes may already have been too weakened from blood loss to actually eat any of his penis. Meiwes read a Star Trek book for three hours whilst his voluntary victim was bleeding to death in the bath. Meiwes apparently gave him large quantities of alcohol and pain killers, 30 sleeping pills and a bottle of Schnapps. Finally, he kissed him once and killed him in a room that he had built in his house for this purpose, The Slaughter Room. After stabbing Brandes to death in the throat, he hung the body on a meathook and tore hunks of flesh from it; he even tried to grind the bones to use as flour. The whole scene was recorded on the two-hour video tape. Meiwes ate the body over the next 10 months, storing body parts in his freezer under pizza boxes and consuming up to 20 kg of the flesh.


I think every adolescent teenager has fantasized about this in one form or another. My particular fantasy involved my penis being bitten off in tiny segments: first right in the middle of te head where its most tender, then biting the rest off right behind the ridge of the head; then a healthy mouthful of stalk.

Of course in my fantasy each of my nuts were slowly bitten in half as well. All the bits and pieces were spat into a saucepan. Naturally I was careful not to overcook them; I like it al dente.

Baudelaire

His ideal of the greatness of the individual is derived
logically from his conception of an aristocratic society
under the triumvirate of the poet, the priest and the
soldier. "Before all, to be a great man and a saint for
one's self;" that, for Baudelaire, is the one ambition
worthy of a superior nature. He has indicated the prin-
cipal traits of the ideal "dandy" that he has sought un-
ceasingly. The dandy is not only the most elegant of
men, of the most original and discriminating tastes, which
he exercises in his habits, in the choice of his books or his
mistress; he is armed with a will superior to all obstacles,
opposing caprice with invincible energy, and correcting
in himself the inevitable faults of nature with all the
resources of art.
.

Why are you using a gay writer like Baudelaire as an example for denigrating homosexuality.

Or have I mistaken him for another french gay writer.

evidence of homosexuality
http://www.pep-web.org/document.php?id=paq.023.0478a
Dracoulides points out two consequences of this early history. One is the intense hate-love of Baudelaire for his mother—his wish to murder her was sublimated in the form of poetry as well as in a dramatic sketch in which the woman is actually murdered.

The second consequence is Baudelaire's complete sexual incapacity in regard to women with the exception of one mulatto prostitute, who is described by contemporaries as obese, loathsome, and hideous. With his mulatto mistress, Baudelaire appears not only to have been potent, but also able to act out both his masochistic desires and, in a symbolic manner, his matricidal wishes. The latter culminated in an attack on the mulatto with a piece of furniture. He broke her head and after that he attempted suicide. The matricidal wishes in regard to his real mother found their symbolic expression in his poetry and in the draft of a play. The whole picture is rounded off by a description of Baudelaire's narcissistic and homosexual behavior

I also read a book called my uncle oswald by Roald dahl, where the protaganist after learning about artificial insemination from a Oxford cow famer goes around europe with his half persian female companion and armed with this condom contraption, trying to collect sperm from the greats of the 1930's. He was successful with everyone (monet, amusden, Churchill, the king of spain etc), but George Bernard Shaw who hated sex and Baudelaire who preferred boys.

Amazon.com: My Uncle Oswald: Roald Dahl: Books
The nameless narrator has revealed snippets of the lovable, lascivious Uncle Oswald's life in other collections, but this is the only novel--brief though it is--dedicated solely to the diaries of "the greatest fornicator of all time." Inspired by stories of the aphrodisiac powers of the Sudanese blister beetle, the palpable seductiveness of the lovely Yasmin Howcomely, and the scientific know-how of Professor A. R. Woresley, Uncle Oswald anticipates the concept of the Nobel sperm bank by some 40 years, flimflamming crowned heads, great artists, and eccentric geniuses into making "donations." The life of a commercial sperm broker has a few surprises even for a sophisticated bon vivant, and Dahl manages his signature sting-in-the-tail ending even in one of his lightest comic works.

Product Description
Uncle Oswald, the great rogue and fornicator, has discovered the world's most powerful aphrodisiac and a method of quick-freezing sperm. So with the help of the gorgeous Yasmin Howcomely, he sets out to preserve 51 living geniuses and crowned heads, from James Joyce to King Albert and Henry Ford.

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MR88QJEAL.jpg

https://epedia.pbwiki.com/f/Dahl.jpg

Baudelaire never ceases to amaze me. Incapable of thinking for themselves! He knew these Belgians.

Only those who know Baudelaire have the right to say:

"...et j'ai lu tous les livres" :)

I think every adolescent teenager has fantasized about this in one form or another. My particular fantasy involved my penis being bitten off in tiny segments: first right in the middle of te head where its most tender, then biting the rest off right behind the ridge of the head; then a healthy mouthful of stalk.

Of course in my fantasy each of my nuts were slowly bitten in half as well. All the bits and pieces were spat into a saucepan. Naturally I was careful not to overcook them; I like it al dente.

Why leave your fantasy unfulfilled? Visit Armin Meiwes when he gets out of jail. He'll make your dreams come true.

Why leave your fantasy unfulfilled? Visit Armin Meiwes when he gets out of jail. He'll make your dreams come true.


bastard turned vegetarian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armin_Meiwes
"Since entering prison, Meiwes has become a vegetarian and has joined a prisoners' group favoring Green Party politics.[4] [5]"

"Since entering prison, Meiwes has become a vegetarian and has joined a prisoners' group favoring Green Party politics.[4] [5]"

Can't say I'm shocked that a fudgepacking cannibal would be a Green Party supporter.

On what data are you basing your supposition that not a lot of people are susceptible?

Are you asking me why we aren't all equally susceptible? If so, I already explained that in my post.

From various sources quoted in Why Men Don’t Iron and general reading over the years.

Got WMDI down from the shelf. Some of the studies they reference:

Diamond M – ‘Homosexuality and Bisexuality in Different Populations’ Archives of Sexual Behaviour (1993) Vol 22 (4) p 291 - 310

Remafedi G ‘Demography of Sexual Orientation in Adolescents’ Paediatrics 1992

Kurt Freud on sexual response (think this was the guy on Horizon programme tested responses to stimuli, works with sex offenders etc)

Seidman SN ‘A review of Sexual Behaviour in the US’ American Journal of Psychiatry 1992

Whitam FL : Culturally Invariable Properties of Male Homosexuality : Tentative Conclusions from Cross Cultural Research, Archives of Sexual Behaviour

Quoting the 1-4% range -- “The implications of a finding that the incidence of homosexuality is similar in all societies and that it remains stable over time is of course of considerable theoretical importance. In short we are led away from the social structural interpretations towards the view that homosexuality is for whatever reasons a constant element in the spectrum of human sexuality.”

About 5 more.

Looked on Google Scholar and there’s a lot on HIV, bad living etc but don’t have time to trawl through all that for population figures.

Plus quick net trawl shows this list of surveys here: http://www.traditionalvalues.org/urban/two.php

If that's the case, why are so many Western couples adopting non-white babies? Aren't non-white babies also a biological cul de sac?



Why do you think bisexuality is rarer than full blown homosexuality?

I would guess that like Madonna and that beautiful but crazy Jolie character that many have them to supplement their already existing families. Like not leaving a carbon footprint or some zany liberal idea of '[have one, adopt one'. Balancing etc.

That a thing is one thing or another not on the sliding scale that you suggest VERY STRAIGHT <-> VERY GAY. I'm mainly referring to men here.

From various sources quoted in Why Men Don’t Iron and general reading over the years.

Got WMDI down from the shelf. Some of the studies they reference:

Diamond M – ‘Homosexuality and Bisexuality in Different Populations’ Archives of Sexual Behaviour (1993) Vol 22 (4) p 291 - 310

Remafedi G ‘Demography of Sexual Orientation in Adolescents’ Paediatrics 1992

Kurt Freud on sexual response (think this was the guy on Horizon programme tested responses to stimuli, works with sex offenders etc)

Seidman SN ‘A review of Sexual Behaviour in the US’ American Journal of Psychiatry 1992

Whitam FL : Culturally Invariable Properties of Male Homosexuality : Tentative Conclusions from Cross Cultural Research, Archives of Sexual Behaviour

Quoting the 1-4% range -- “The implications of a finding that the incidence of homosexuality is similar in all societies and that it remains stable over time is of course of considerable theoretical importance. In short we are led away from the social structural interpretations towards the view that homosexuality is for whatever reasons a constant element in the spectrum of human sexuality.”

About 5 more.

Looked on Google Scholar and there’s a lot on HIV, bad living etc but don’t have time to trawl through all that for population figures.

Plus quick net trawl shows this list of surveys here: http://www.traditionalvalues.org/urban/two.php

So you're giving me footnotes to journals that you haven't read, which may not even support your conclusion, from a book that I don't have access to.

Well, I guess that's it then. Who can argue with the evidence? If the authors of Why Men Don't Iron say that's the way it is, then it must be true. Case closed.

I would guess that like Madonna and that beautiful but crazy Jolie character that many have them to supplement their already existing families. Like not leaving a carbon footprint or some zany liberal idea of '[have one, adopt one'. Balancing etc.

That a thing is one thing or another not on the sliding scale that you suggest VERY STRAIGHT <-> VERY GAY. I'm mainly referring to men here.

I don't even understand what you're saying here, but that's OK. I've invested about as much time into this thread as I'm going to.

I’m not so sure about the race mixer analogy. I think a man to fu**ing a Thai for instance (as some nationalists on here have been busted on) is less against the grain that a man fucking a man. I could conceive it possible to ‘get wood’ in the former situation (although verboten) but a man? Never.

So what do you think of men who like she-males? They must have been born that way, too, uh?

On your point of being socialised into not being racist that’s true but that trusty steed Kevin MacDonald has a very interesting chapter in Cultural Insurrections (Psychology & White Ethnocentrism and the subchapter Ethnocentrism and its Control) that makes a distinction between our implicit cognitive processing system and our explicit processing cognitive system.

The former is more core, the latter a more recent evolutionary development. So our more ancient subcortical brain is more inclined to more natural behaviour and the more recent prefrontal cortex to more conscious processing that takes into account our modern society and its taboos.

The more reflexive older brain makes us live more in white neighbourhoods, eat, drink, socialise white but the more recent PFC brain doesn’t allow us to interpret this as ‘white behaviour.’ So yes it seems society can place those taboos and that framework in susceptible minds but it can’t vanquish the impetus of the underlying inclination.

What's interesting about this is that as much as MacDonald may dislike Freud, what he's suggesting here sounds a helluvalot like Freud's theories about the id, ego, and superego, at least in the manner that you've presented it. The only difference is that MacDonald seems to be tying it in to the physiology of the brain, which of course, Freud didn't have the means to do in his time.

From what you've described, the subcortical brain would be the id, while the prefrontal cortex would contain the ego and superego.

So you're giving me footnotes to journals that you haven't read, which may not even support your conclusion, from a book that I don't have access to.

Well, I guess that's it then. Who can argue with the evidence? If the authors of Why Men Don't Iron say that's the way it is, then it must be true. Case closed.

I gave you a link that referenced various surveys that came to a conclusion of low rates of homosexuality, I gave you a quote from the conclusion of a paper and the author and I gave you a few additional papers that suggest similar should you an inquiring mind wish to pursue an answer and test their viewpoints. I could sit here and type out long passages quoting those various reports but I won't.

You on the other hand in criticizing my citations haven't provided any supporting scientific evidence (apart from a tangential piece on addiction), therefore in the absence of any arguments it seems that it certainly is for you case closed.

On a side note - adoption of other children - I made the point that many people who do it do it because they already have their own kids. Therefore not a dead end in their own minds. Madonna and Jolie being prominent examples.

So what do you think of men who like she-males? They must have been born that way, too, uh?

What's interesting about this is that as much as MacDonald may dislike Freud, what he's suggesting here sounds a helluvalot like Freud's theories about the id, ego, and superego, at least in the manner that you've presented it. The only difference is that MacDonald seems to be tying it in to the physiology of the brain, which of course, Freud didn't have the means to do in his time.

From what you've described, the subcortical brain would be the id, while the prefrontal cortex would contain the ego and superego.

Freud rehashed and repacked wholesale and essentially the dichotomy between instinct and mind is what he based that stuff on. Richard Webster (Why Freud was Wrong : Sin, Science and Psychoanalysis) quoting another:

"Freud observes that the ego's 'three tyrannical masters are the external world, the super-ego and the id' but since this is saying little more than that man's consciousness is governed by his environment, his conscience and his innate instincts, it is hardly a great revelation"

Freud rehashed and repacked wholesale and essentially the dichotomy between instinct and mind is what he based that stuff on. Richard Webster (Why Freud was Wrong : Sin, Science and Psychoanalysis) quoting another:

"Freud observes that the ego's 'three tyrannical masters are the external world, the super-ego and the id' but since this is saying little more than that man's consciousness is governed by his environment, his conscience and his innate instincts, it is hardly a great revelation"

So when MacDonald re-packages the same concepts 70 years after Freud, suddenly it's a great revelation? BTW, you didn't answer me -- do you consider a man who's attracted to she-males to be gay or straight?

I gave you a link that referenced various surveys that came to a conclusion of low rates of homosexuality, I gave you a quote from the conclusion of a paper and the author and I gave you a few additional papers that suggest similar should you an inquiring mind wish to pursue an answer and test their viewpoints. I could sit here and type out long passages quoting those various reports but I won't.

You posted a paragraph that speculatively says that from 1 to 4 per cent of the population of a given area at a given time may be homosexual, however the authors chose to define that term. What is it that you think you've managed to prove by quoting this paragraph?

You on the other hand in criticizing my citations haven't provided any supporting scientific evidence (apart from a tangential piece on addiction), therefore in the absence of any arguments it seems that it certainly is for you case closed.

Would you like me to start dropping footnotes like you have? I can certainly do that.

Here are some right here:

[ii] Satinover, Jeffrey, Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth, Hamewith/Baker Books, 1996.

[v] See O'Leary, Dale, "Recent Studies on Homosexuality and Mental Health," http://www.narth.com/docs/recent.html. O'Leary gives a summary of health findings and references for specific studies.

[vii] Bayer, R. Homosexuality and American Psychiatry, Princeton University Press, 1987. Mr. Bayer chronicled the story of how homosexuality was removed as a diagnosis. It confirms that the APA did not officially investigate or study the issue thoroughly before it gave formal approval of the deletion of homosexuality from the DSMII.

[ix] Socarides, Charles, W., "Sexual Politics and Scientific Logic: The Issue of Homosexuality," The Journal of Psychohistory, 10:3, 1992, p. 309 Dr. Socarides explains that a task force within the APA itself concluded in 1973 that Hooker's study was full of methodological errors, and did not warrant her conclusions. See also, Joseph Nicolosi, "Clash of Worldviews: Interview with Michael Wertheimer", www.narth.com.

[xii] Spitzer, R.L, et. al, in "Symposium: Should Homosexuality Be in the APA Nomenclature?" American Journal of Psychiatry, 130:11, 1973 make no mention whatsoever of any health implications of homosexuality. Also, I asked Dr. Spitzer in an e-mail correspondence April 4, 2001, whether there was any chance the APA might change its policy in light of evidence that sexual orientation can be changed and the negative impact of homosexual practices upon lifespan. He acknowledged nothing about shortened lifespan, but gave a one-sentence reply that said there was no possibility that APA would change its policy on homosexuality at that time.

[xix] Spitzer, R.L, et. al, "Symposium: Should Homosexuality Be in the APA Nomenclature?" p.1215.

[xx] Spitzer, R.L, "Two Hundred Subjects Who Claim to Have Changed Their Sexual Orientation from Homosexual to Heterosexual," presentation made at the American Psychiatric Association, May 9th, 2001, in New Orleans, available from NYS Psychiatric Institute, New York, NY, 10032, phone (212) 543-5524.

[xxi] Rev. Dr. Earle Fox, former president of the chapter of Exodus Intl. whose members picketed the 2000 APA convention to protest the denial of therapy to those who want it (which resulted in Dr. Robert Spitzer's 2001 study on reorientation therapy), tells in "Homosexuality Wrongly a Civil Right," Delaware State News, January 13, 2002, how no one was disputing that sexual orientation could be changed until gay activists, Kirk and Madsen, in After the Ball: How America will Conquer It's Fear and Hatred of Gays in the 90's, Doubleday, 1989, outlined their plan to convince America gays were "born that way," and "beyond the realm of moral choice," p. 189.

Hope you find them helpful.

On a side note - adoption of other children - I made the point that many people who do it do it because they already have their own kids. Therefore not a dead end in their own minds.

So what are you suggesting? That a couple in which one of the partners has the elusive "gay" gene is doomed to only having homosexual children? Can you name a single family in which all of the offspring turned out to be homosexuals?

Your argument doesn't hold water. If a non-white baby isn't seen as a dead end, neither will a homosexual baby.

So when MacDonald re-packages the same concepts 70 years after Freud, suddenly it's a great revelation? BTW, you didn't answer me -- do you consider a man who's attracted to she-males to be gay or straight?

Freud’s terms relate to the banal dressed up in something grander. Once again so it sinks in - he repackaged something trite and everyday and pre-existing to him as with almost everything he put on paper it was begged, borrowed or stolen.

KMcD on the other hand makes us aware that a psychology consensus has come to understand how some of these important drivers play out in the human mind and in society. Not via anal retention or any other of Freud’s juvenile fantasies.

It has value and explanatory power because it enables us to comprehend how the current situation arose, is entrenched and to hold a mirror up to society and individuals to help people see this thus weakening the taboos that keep the whole situation in place.

It allows us to try and use these insights to our advantage and is a good starting point for propaganda and much more.

I just had a look and this chapter is actually online as much of that book is formed via various essays in the Occidental Quarterly. PDF here for any interested: www.theoccidentalquarterly.com/archives/vol6no4/MacDonald.pdf

These commentaries have diverted a thread on Haider’s alleged homosexuality and now we are going beyond a discussion of the innateness of homosexuality, its prevalence and how to socially manage it to sneering at Kevin MacDonald. I think the productive value of this series of responses is coming / has come to an end.

You posted a paragraph that speculatively says that from 1 to 4 per cent of the population of a given area at a given time may be homosexual, however the authors chose to define that term. What is it that you think you've managed to prove by quoting this paragraph?



Would you like me to start dropping footnotes like you have? I can certainly do that.

Here are some right here:



Hope you find them helpful.



So what are you suggesting? That a couple in which one of the partners has the elusive "gay" gene is doomed to only having homosexual children? Can you name a single family in which all of the offspring turned out to be homosexuals?

Your argument doesn't hold water. If a non-white baby isn't seen as a dead end, neither will a homosexual baby.

You asked for some of the sources I had to back up the the rates of homosexuality. So I dug some out. Therefore I'm not throwing citations at you I have provided something that you requested and thereafter sneered at. Curious.

I haven't said anything about a 'gay gene' I'm sure it's more complicated than that.

I have said that of those people I know of (vi the press) who have adopted foreign kids they already have their own children as you used this as an example of a dead-end.

I also said that a gay child is a dead end - because turkey basters aside they are...

Can't say I'm shocked that a fudgepacking cannibal would be a Green Party supporter.Most vegetarians still drink milk & cream... If a non-white baby isn't seen as a dead end, neither will a homosexual baby.Haider is dead proof that homosexuals are not dead end, in respect to reproduction

...BTW, you didn't answer me -- do you consider a man who's attracted to she-males to be gay or straight?...Straight, as long as he doesn't know it's a shemale.
Gay if he suddenly finds out, when she turns over and the cock flops out from beneath the dress, and he continues the session despite this

You asked for some of the sources I had to back up the the rates of homosexuality. So I dug some out. Therefore I'm not throwing citations at you I have provided something that you requested and thereafter sneered at. Curious.

The papers you have cited: you have read them? You have them in your possession?

From your introductory sentences, it certainly doesn't sound like you have read any of these papers or are in any way familiar with their content:

From various sources quoted in Why Men Don’t Iron and general reading over the years.

Got WMDI down from the shelf. Some of the studies they reference:

I haven't said anything about a 'gay gene' I'm sure it's more complicated than that.

Well then, tell me all about it. If you're so sure that this theory is true and that what I have proposed is wrong, you should be able to elaborate on it a bit more than to say "it's complicated."

I have said that of those people I know of (vi the press) who have adopted foreign kids they already have their own children as you used this as an example of a dead-end.

Your example assumes that a couple about to have a homosexual baby (if such a thing exists) don't have any other children, but that a couple about to adopt a non-white child do. Why would you make that assumption? You ever think of trying to compare apples to apples?

I also said that a gay child is a dead end - because turkey basters aside they are...

No more so than non-white children.

And for the third time, is a man who is attracted to she-males gay or straight? Was he born that way? Why won't you answer this question?

It allows us to try and use these insights to our advantage and is a good starting point for propaganda and much more.

Holy shit, dude, you don't have to try to sell me on MacDonald. I have his trilogy on Jews sitting on my bookshelf.

I was merely pointing out that what you were describing had a striking resemblance to some of Freud's theories. You don't have to get your panties in a knot over it.

These commentaries have diverted a thread on Haider’s alleged homosexuality and now we are going beyond a discussion of the innateness of homosexuality, its prevalence and how to socially manage it to sneering at Kevin MacDonald.

"Sneering" at MacDonald? Who "sneered" at MacDonald?

BTW, if you didn't want to discuss MacDonald, perhaps you shouldn't have dragged him into the thread.

I think the productive value of this series of responses is coming / has come to an end.

That's what I said a few posts back.

The papers you have cited: you have read them? You have them in your possession?

From your introductory sentences, it certainly doesn't sound like you have read any of these papers or are in any way familiar with their content:





Well then, tell me all about it. If you're so sure that this theory is true and that what I have proposed is wrong, you should be able to elaborate on it a bit more than to say "it's complicated."



Your example assumes that a couple about to have a homosexual baby (if such a thing exists) don't have any other children, but that a couple about to adopt a non-white child do. Why would you make that assumption? You ever think of trying to compare apples to apples?



No more so than non-white children.

And for the third time, is a man who is attracted to she-males gay or straight? Was he born that way? Why won't you answer this question?

Mr Alexander, this has become tedious.

Go back and read the previous posts again.

I said “I’m keeping an open mind” but I believe that there is something more going on as there seems to be various genetic elements to this.

I supplied a bunch of links which touched on some of these elements which you suggested you’d look at. I believe that people are gay or not gay.

You believe there’s a sliding scale of very straight through to very gay and suggest that propaganda can knock the people at one end of this line off into actually changing their sexual preferences. Your reasoning was that the ‘campy’ elements are not inherited. Hmm.

The environmentalist argument is everywhere on the retreat except it seems in certain corners of VNN.

The book I referenced quotes from the sources cited and one trusts or does not trust the veracity of an author. If every time you read a book you have to go to the cited publications and read that too or search the archives then God forbid you must read one full decent book a year.

There was also a link to a summation of some additional surveys which it also seems you also don’t want to engage with.

My example on gay children assumes no such thing just that one would prefer to put ones resources into that which best represents them and goes on to fulfil its destiny and not be a gay, Down’s Syndrome, Spina Bifida or any other sort of handicapped child. One can barely afford children at present and if you have the chance of testing to determine certain things and it is within your means I’m sure many parents would strongly consider it.

As to she-males there is no such thing in the sense that the biology is male. Therefore a male attracted to a she-male is a gay person with an additional kink or a straight person with some serious fuck up issues. Are she-males born that way? No firm idea, but I suspect yes there is an underlying biological element.

So when MacDonald re-packages the same concepts 70 years after Freud, suddenly it's a great revelation?

I have already answered this point but this is what I mean about sneering for its own sake.

Straight, as long as he doesn't know it's a shemale.
Gay if he suddenly finds out, when she turns over and the cock flops out from beneath the dress, and he continues the session despite this

LOL. I think most would still know though

One of my friends used to work at Lloyd's of London and they threw a leaving party for someone who had a Kissagram. Kissagram went down, guy got carried away copped a feel and knocked it out.

Why leave your fantasy unfulfilled? Visit Armin Meiwes when he gets out of jail. He'll make your dreams come true...There's no need to wait that long. There are methods which can be practiced which will make the penis edible, without the visit of Armin Meiwes
...Meiwes then sautéed the penis in a pan with salt, pepper, and garlic, but by then it was too burned to be consumed...That's going in the proper direction. The trouble is, he neglected continual addition of water, to keep the penis from burning. The penis stalk is made of material which shares a similar consistencey to ordinary grizzle found in steaks. To tenderize the stalk, you will need a pressure cooker with enough water to cover the stalk or the entire penis, if preferred. No salt should be added. Because, salt functions contrary to tenderizer. 45 minutes to an hour cooking, under pressure, should do. A bay leaf and a garlic clove should enhance the taste. You could even prepare it Mexican style, by adding chillies and chillie powder... My particular fantasy involved my penis being bitten off in tiny segments: first right in the middle of te head where its most tender, then biting the rest off right behind the ridge of the head; then a healthy mouthful of stalk...I would advise cooking the head of your penis, in a pressure cooker, also, after having divided it into steaks. The head is likely to share the consistencey of the squid's torso. The head has to hold blood- and vaginal pressure. therefore, if it was made like ordinary skin, it would not hold form. Because, skin is too stretchy ...
Of course in my fantasy each of my nuts were slowly bitten in half as well. All the bits and pieces were spat into a saucepan. Naturally I was careful not to overcook them; I like it al dente.You can have your nuts prepared by a gourmet who has knowledge of preparing Rocky Mountain Oysters

Even Petzner that sposedly the Jews are afraid of - first time I saw the man I thought he looked odd so I did a Google Image search on him to see if the journaille had picked an unfortunate photo of him as they like to do. The first image is him in semi macho mode, but I'm not an expert (thank God) but does he look (http://images.google.co.uk/images?q=Stefan%20Petzner&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi) free from the taint of homosexuality himself?? Looks like a fetish picture for those who like their men fresh out of Belsen.

Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1079772/Far-right-Austrian-leader-Jorg-Haider-gay-lover-reveals-successor.html?ITO=1490) - UK Right wing tabloid

Far-right Austrian leader Jorg Haider was my gay lover, reveals his successor!

By Daily Mail Reporter
22nd October 2008

Austria has been rocked after the male successor to right-wing leader Jorg Haider virtually admitted to having a gay affair with him.

Haider, 58, who was pictured cuddling a man in a gay bar where he had his final drinks before the death crash which claimed his life, was long suspected of leading a double existence during his years in power.

Now Stefan Petzner, 27, who recently replaced Haider as leader of the right wing party, Alliance for the Future of Austria, effectively outed himself as the far right leader’s gay lover while being interviewed on the country’s O3 radio channel breakfast show.
Enlarge Haider

Good friends: Joerg Haider, right, and his spokesman Stefan Petzner toast after a news conference in Vienna

'I had to go to him. I had to go to him,' Petzner said in his highly emotional interview as he recalled how he rushed to the hospital where the dead body of 52-year-old Haider was lying after his fatal crash in early October.

Admitting that he felt a 'magnetic attraction' for Haider, whom he met five years ago while working as a cosmetics correspondent for a newspaper, Petzner insisted: 'We had a relationship that went far beyond friendship. Jorg and I were connected by something truly special. He was the man of my life.'

He insisted that Haider’s widow, Claudia did not object to his relationship: 'She loved him as a woman. He loved her as a man. I loved him in a completely different and personal way. She understood that.'

But Petzner’s sister, Chrisitiane, 30, appeared to cast doubt on her brother’s story.

In a newspaper interview she said: 'Sometimes Claudia was jealous because Stefan would spend more time with her husband than she did.'
Austrian

Clearly embarrassed by the revelations, officials at the Alliance for the Future of Austria, yesterday attempted to limit the political damage to the party by cancelling forthcoming interviews with Petzner.

However their attempts to prevent his radio interview being rebroadcast were turned down.

There was speculation that as a result of his controversial interview, Petzner might soon find himself replaced as party leader.

Haider crashed his Volkswagen limousine while drunk and driving at more than double the speed limit while on his way his mother’s birthday party in the early hours of the morning earlier this month.
gay politician
haider

Last Saturday he was given the equivalent of a state funeral in Klagenfurt, the capital of the Austrian province of Carinthia where he was governor for more than a decade. More than 25,000 people attended.

Hours before he was buried it was revealed he drank a whole bottle of vodka in a seedy gay bar with an unidentified male 'friend'.

His party more than doubled its share of the vote in Austria’s general election at the end of September i n which the far right won 30 per cent.

The result prompted speculation that Haider would once again figure in Austrian national politics.
haider

Mountain guides wearing traditional dresses carry the coffin of controversial Austrian politician Joerg Haider at the cathedral in Klagenfurt

Allegations that Haider was either gay or bi-sexual were first published in Austria nearly a decade ago.

However the far right leader, who fathered two children with his wife Claudia, refused to discuss the allegations, fearing that they would alienate thousands of his ultra conservative followers.

Until yesterday conservative Austria had preferred not to dwell on the subject and allowed Haider to portray himself at least, outwardly as a traditional family man., although his party was nicknamed the 'Haider’s Boy Party' .

you called it Dykeward (what's up with the name?).

http://www.elektrojournal.at/bilder/d61/PetznerStefan.jpg

who'd a thunk a former "cosmetics correspondent for a newspaper" (wtf, reporting on the latest trends in eyeliner and technological breakthroughs in lipstick application??) who, at age 27, was Haider's designated successor to the Alliance party might, in fact, be his secret gay lover?

http://www.wir-sind-wir.at/30jahre/images/PETZNER.jpg

you called it Dykeward (what's up with the name?).

dike 1 also dyke
Chiefly British A low wall, often of sod, dividing or enclosing lands.

ward
The act of keeping guard or protective watch: watch and ward.
To avert, repel, or turn aside (danger, harm, an attack, an assailant, etc.) (usually fol. by off): to ward off a blow; to ward off evil.
Archaic. to protect; guard.

Unfortunate secondary association with the colloquial term for lesbian (!)

dike 1 also dyke
Chiefly British A low wall, often of sod, dividing or enclosing lands.

ward
The act of keeping guard or protective watch: watch and ward.
To avert, repel, or turn aside (danger, harm, an attack, an assailant, etc.) (usually fol. by off): to ward off a blow; to ward off evil.
Archaic. to protect; guard.

Unfortunate secondary association with the colloquial term for lesbian (!)

yeah I keep forgetting Brits have a slightly different langauge than us yanks; you say dyke here you mean lesbo. you say you want to smoke a fag in the states, well, you might not get what you expected.

Do you mean "lung cancer"?

Yes, Haider was, but who cares? He loved our people and dedicated himself to our service.

Why does a grown man have 2 children as his avatar pic?

YouTube - &quot;Aber Herr Otto Stuk, du look so jung...&quot;

Yes, Haider was, but who cares? He loved our people and dedicated himself to our service.
I think right now the question is whether he did more damage than good.

Mr Alexander, this has become tedious.

It certainly has.

Go back and read the previous posts again.

You do the same.

I said “I’m keeping an open mind” but I believe that there is something more going on as there seems to be various genetic elements to this.

As always, it's the guy who preaches "open-mindedness" who remains wedded to his ideas.

I supplied a bunch of links which touched on some of these elements which you suggested you’d look at.

And I certainly will, when I have the time. Have you read the article I linked to that discusses reorientation therapy?

I believe that people are gay or not gay.

An idiotic belief, since there are obviously people who engage in homosexual activity who are not "gay."

You believe there’s a sliding scale

Where did I use the term "sliding scale"?

A sliding scale is:

a scale of wages, prices, taxes, customs duties, or the like, that can be adjusted according to certain conditions.

I didn't use the term "sliding scale," and have no idea what a "sliding scale" might mean in the context of sexual orientation. The analogy I made was to a grayscale.

It's not that I would normally make a big deal of something like this, but you have consistently misrepresented things that I've written, and I'm starting to suspect that it's not mere sloppiness on your part.

of very straight through to very gay and suggest that propaganda can knock the people at one end of this line off into actually changing their sexual preferences.

I suggested propaganda was a factor among several. I certainly did not suggest, as you have dishonestly implied throughout this thread, that someone will watch a few episodes of "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy" or whatever pro-homo propaganda is on the idiot box and decide the very next day that he's "gay" (though such programs do send a clear message to suggestible viewers, including children and teenagers, that homosexuality is an acceptable and even desirable lifestyle).

Just out of curiosity: would you let your children watch such programs, Dykeward? If not, why not? If everything comes down to genetics as you seem to believe, it shouldn't really matter what your kids see on TV, should it?

Your reasoning was that the ‘campy’ elements are not inherited. Hmm.

I said quite a bit more than that, but since you obviously can't read...

The environmentalist argument is everywhere on the retreat except it seems in certain corners of VNN.

The "environmentalist argument" is on the retreat "everywhere" because it has been attacked relentlessly by "gay rights" advocates for the last 40 years. If it weren't for the efforts of the "gay rights" advocates, homosexuality would still be officially classified as a mental illness. Has that sunk into your head yet or do I need to repeat it a few more times?

The book I referenced quotes from the sources cited and one trusts or does not trust the veracity of an author.

The problem, Dykeward, is that you lied. You claimed you had read the material you cited when in fact you had not.

Here is what you wrote in post #148 (emphasis added):

I gave you a link that referenced various surveys that came to a conclusion of low rates of homosexuality, I gave you a quote from the conclusion of a paper and the author and I gave you a few additional papers that suggest similar should you an inquiring mind wish to pursue an answer and test their viewpoints. I could sit here and type out long passages quoting those various reports but I won't.

If every time you read a book you have to go to the cited publications and read that too or search the archives then God forbid you must read one full decent book a year.

Once again, the problem is that you lied.

When I first started noticing the contradictory statements in your posts (sometimes even within the same sentence), I attributed it to sloppiness or hazy thinking on your part. I know now that I should have attributed it to dishonesty.

You even employ the old liar's trick of keeping your statements as vague as possible to allow yourself plenty of 'wiggle room' should you get called on one of them.

My example on gay children assumes no such thing just that one would prefer to put ones resources into that which best represents them and goes on to fulfil its destiny and not be a gay, Down’s Syndrome, Spina Bifida or any other sort of handicapped child. One can barely afford children at present and if you have the chance of testing to determine certain things and it is within your means I’m sure many parents would strongly consider it.

You understand perfectly well the point I was trying to make. Don't play dumb.

As to she-males there is no such thing in the sense that the biology is male. Therefore a male attracted to a she-male is a gay person with an additional kink or a straight person with some serious fuck up issues.

In other words, you can't answer the question. Men who are attracted to she-males don't fit into your black-and-white conception of sexuality, just as bisexuals don't.

When an intellectually honest person is confronted with facts or phenomena that don't fit his theory, he either alters his theory or discards it. He doesn't try to discard or downplay the facts, or pretend that the phenomena don't exist. You are clearly not an intellectually honest person.

Are she-males born that way? No firm idea, but I suspect yes there is an underlying biological element.

I wasn't asking if she-males are "born that way." I was asking if the men who are attracted to them are. My, you are a slippery one, aren't you?

http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/politik/2008/10/23/joerg-haider-ko-tropfen/in-seinen-drinks-familie-will-obduktion-im-ausland.html

His widow wants to have his body sent to a foreign country for autopsy. Becuse, she doesn't believe the coroner's report:

...Witwe Claudia glaubt der Polizei nicht – sie will ihren Mann im Ausland obduzieren lassen...

Volkswagen Company reafirms the surviving family member's suspicions of foul play, by claiming that a Phaeton would have not veered from the road, at 142 kmh. Not even with a drunken person driving:

...VW schürt die Zweifel der Familie – mit der Aussage, der als sicher geltende Phaeton hätte auch bei Tempo 142 und mit einem betrunkenen Fahrer nicht aus der Kurve fliegen dürfen...

I have already answered this point but this is what I mean about sneering for its own sake.

If I was "sneering" at anyone, it was at you. Apparently, the hypocrisy of your response (i.e. praising MacDonald for repeating concepts that were only "banal" when Freud "stole" them more than 70 years ago) has gone over your head.

http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/8834

FFS. OK, I’m going to go through the routine of answering your churlish, ill willed and badly formulated points one last time, sum up and let others decide for themselves (if they have any interest or the will to live at this point) because I’m too tired of discussing this topic where the rewards are non-existent.

And I certainly will, when I have the time. Have you read the article I linked to that discusses reorientation therapy?

I read parts of a few articles on the Narth site yes, some stuff there to engage with and bookmarked the rest to go back to over the w/end.

So you tell me I’m firmly wedded to my ideas while dishonestly promoting myself as having an open mind.

So we’ve had a discussion on a thread over 5 or more days and yet you continue responding to the thread while not even looking at counter arguments via the suggested links.

And you have the cheek to suggest I'm intellectually dishonest! Glad I didn't attend your school.

Where did I use the term "sliding scale"?

At one extreme, you'll have a straight man who literally wants to puke at the sight of two men kissing each other. At the other end, you'll have a fag who wants to puke at the sight of Miss October spreading her gams. In between these two extremes, there's a vast grey area, and I suspect that many who engage in homosexual activities fall somewhere into this middle.

You posit a scale with at one end one extreme, at the other its pole opposite. In between are the grey areas. Now it’s you playing dumb because it’s quite clear that there are gradations here from one pole to the other.

An idiotic belief, since there are obviously people who engage in homosexual activity who are not "gay."

Que? Apart from a ‘testing’ phase around puberty or the unnatural circumstance of jail this argument holds no water. Overwhelmingly people engage in homosexual activity because they are guess what ...homosexuals. Who’d have thunk it, eh? What an outrage!

I suggested propaganda was a factor among several. I certainly did not suggest, as you have dishonestly implied throughout this thread, that someone will watch a few episodes of "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy" or whatever pro-homo propaganda is on the idiot box and decide the very next day that he's "gay" (though such programs do send a clear message to suggestible viewers, including children and teenagers, that homosexuality is an acceptable and even desirable lifestyle).

I have implied no such thing, I have gone on what you have told me. This is what you said:

What if I told children, teenagers, and young adults that bisexuality is cool, that it's what all their favorite bands/celebrities are doing, what their peers are doing, that it's forbidden and thus exciting and that it's a great way to rebel against their parents/authority figures? What if I told them that with homosexual sex, they can achieve lots of orgasms without having to worry about pregnancy? Could I succeed in this manner to convince at least some of them that they aren't "straight," or that they ought to at least try a homosexual encounter? ...... this is exactly how homosexuality is being marketed to our young people at this very time. From what I've seen, the "marketers" are having a fair bit of success.

This is your explanation for homosexuality! Great theory. Tell me as I have asked you before without receiving a satisfactory reply (then again don't bother) why if this is the case aren't more people gay? That big grey area you posit, they're all low-hanging fruit for the fruit community, no?

I wouldn’t consider a kid at school that exchanged saliva or a fumble with another same sex kid of the same age during puberty to be gay BTW. This is the only situation where I think this ‘propaganda’ might have any success.

Just out of curiosity: would you let your children watch such programs, Dykeward? If not, why not? If everything comes down to genetics as you seem to believe, it shouldn't really matter what your kids see on TV, should it?

Like my own upbringing, TV will be tolerated as an occasional evil. I have a two year old daughter and another one due at the beginning of 2009. I allow her to watch CBeebies (BBC kid's channel) and I don’t discern anything that is overtly harmful as of this time.

I look at TV as being a non productive, mind numbing use of time and would therefore encourage them to read a book or play or even watch a film. I don’t think that TV will make her gay in the way you suggest and from time to time my girlfriend watches rubbish similar to QEFTSG, so does my sister(s) and I don’t loudly object, those programmes are aimed at women and I don’t see my woman or eventually daughters batting for the other side because of them.

I would object later in my children’s lives because it is generally mind mush and instills propaganda in their malleable minds that I intend to do my best to prevent getting there. Propaganda of a multi racial world.

Originally Posted by Dykeward. Your reasoning was that the ‘campy’ elements are not inherited. Hmm.

I said quite a bit more than that, but since you obviously can't read...

Well here it is, that distillation of wisdom:

There's no need to look at it that deeply. I've already given you a few common sense reasons to doubt that one's sexual orientation is determined before birth. Does anyone claim that lisping or some of the feminine mannerisms encountered in some male homosexuals are inherited rather learned traits? Do lesbians cut their hair short and hate men because Mother Nature programmed them that way? If we can agree that these behaviors are learned rather than inherited, why is it so hard to accept that a sexual attraction to one's own gender might be a sexual perversion, just like fetishes that are aquired during puberty?

... I need say no more.

The "environmentalist argument" is on the retreat "everywhere" because it has been attacked relentlessly by "gay rights" advocates for the last 40 years. If it weren't for the efforts of the "gay rights" advocates, homosexuality would still be officially classified as a mental illness. Has that sunk into your head yet or do I need to repeat it a few more times?

Firstly full blown environmentalist arguments are on the retreat in every area of science that relates to man not just regarding sexual attraction.

Secondly as said before many gay groups support the environmentalist argument or at least oppose the pure 'born that way' genetic position.

To test this I looked on the two sites I know of. Peter Tatchell is an abrasive campaigning queer in the UK and is one of the best known representatives here for this movement. It was hard to know who to side with when he was beaten up some time past by Robert Mugabe’s minders while trying to perform a citizen’s arrest.

He opposes this position that you say the gay rights groups promote (pro genetic):

http://www.petertatchell.net/gay%20gene/gay%20gene%20index.htm

He argues genes may form a predisposition but that that culture and society and a range of environmental influences are important factors in whether this is expressed.

Secondly Stonewall argue for a midway point too a mix of both. Article here: http://www.stonewall.org.uk/scotland/information_bank/coming_out_and_sexuality/1867.asp

They quote John Money, Emeritus Professor of Paediatrics at John Hopkins University, Maryland, USA, summarises the current scientific crux:

“Homosexuality is multi-varied. There is certainly a genetic component but there is not enough data to state that it is an exclusive influence. Hormones that affect the foetus play a part.”

So neither of these groups in the UK is pushing a strong gay genetic argument as you suggest.

This is not to say that gay groups didn’t have a strong hand in changing the official classification of homosexuality as a disorder.

Additionally, people on VNN who have seen you pick up the torch and go to battle in defence of environmentalist explanations on this and other threads might have relished the irony of this statement:

You don't need a Ph.D. to form an opinion on this subject, any more than you need one to reach the conclusion that global warming, the holocaust, or Boasian anthropology are scams.

Franz Boas and his disciples were the prime movers in creating the environmentalist explanations in anthropology, sometimes to comical degrees. They created the philosophy that you now try to use in your reasoning lock, stock and barrel. They used a combination of deceit and muscle to drive out the earlier race and biological based explanations and others within the various academic associations made sure they stayed gone (the old book 'The Great Deceit', Veritas is very good on this).

These days even their current inheritor Gould wouldn't have the effrontery to try and argue what you are saying with a straight face. Here (http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:G6PVIYAC6bwJ:www.ghi-dc.org/publications/ghipubs/annual/al02.pdf+Franz+Boas+cultural+explanation&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=uk&client=firefox-a), here (http://dwax.org/franz-boas-and-rise-modern-culture) or here (http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/stalkers/jpr_gould_paid.html). So not only does Boas sit behind your arguments you also seem to think Freud sits behind some of KMac's current explanations. What next, are you going to explain the current economic climate by reference to Karl Marx or race based politics via Moses Hess?

The problem, Dykeward, is that you lied. You claimed you had read the material you cited when in fact you had not.

Here is what you wrote in post #148 (emphasis added):
Quote:
I gave you a link that referenced various surveys that came to a conclusion of low rates of homosexuality, I gave you a quote from the conclusion of a paper and the author and I gave you a few additional papers that suggest similar should you an inquiring mind wish to pursue an answer and test their viewpoints. I could sit here and type out long passages quoting those various reports but I won't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dykeward.
If every time you read a book you have to go to the cited publications and read that too or search the archives then God forbid you must read one full decent book a year.
Once again, the problem is that you lied.

When I first started noticing the contradictory statements in your posts (sometimes even within the same sentence), I attributed it to sloppiness or hazy thinking on your part. I know now that I should have attributed it to dishonesty.

You even employ the old liar's trick of keeping your statements as vague as possible to allow yourself plenty of 'wiggle room' should you get called on one of them.

Now it’s pretty offensive to me to be called a liar when I have been having what I considered to be a fair-natured conversation but this is lightened by the fact that a jackass is doing the name calling.

That is what I said in post #148 boy wonder, agreed but guess what. The “I gave you a link” post references those links in the previous post #143 where I said :


Got WMDI down from the shelf. Some of the studies they reference:

Diamond M – ‘Homosexuality and Bisexuality in Different Populations’ Archives of Sexual Behaviour (1993) Vol 22 (4) p 291 - 310

Remafedi G ‘Demography of Sexual Orientation in Adolescents’ Paediatrics 1992

Kurt Freud on sexual response (think this was the guy on Horizon programme tested responses to stimuli, works with sex offenders etc)

Seidman SN ‘A review of Sexual Behaviour in the US’ American Journal of Psychiatry 1992

Whitam FL : Culturally Invariable Properties of Male Homosexuality : Tentative Conclusions from Cross Cultural Research, Archives of Sexual Behaviour

Quoting the 1-4% range -- “The implications of a finding that the incidence of homosexuality is similar in all societies and that it remains stable over time is of course of considerable theoretical importance. In short we are led away from the social structural interpretations towards the view that homosexuality is for whatever reasons a constant element in the spectrum of human sexuality.”

About 5 more.

Looked on Google Scholar and there’s a lot on HIV, bad living etc but don’t have time to trawl through all that for population figures.

Plus quick net trawl shows this list of surveys here: http://www.traditionalvalues.org/urban/two.php

Long passages quoting (from) the various reports in the book that I mentioned in the earlier post.

I typed one short passage out in that earlier post and said I wasn't inclined to type more.

Are you really such a dullard or just playing the jester? I fear it is the former.

If my exasperated shorthand response caused you to forget the conversational thread then perhaps senility beckons.

Originally Posted by Dykeward.
My example on gay children assumes no such thing just that one would prefer to put ones resources into that which best represents them and goes on to fulfil its destiny and not be a gay, Down’s Syndrome, Spina Bifida or any other sort of handicapped child. One can barely afford children at present and if you have the chance of testing to determine certain things and it is within your means I’m sure many parents would strongly consider it.

You understand perfectly well the point I was trying to make. Don't play dumb.

Not dumb old chap, it’s a valid point no parent wants a gay child. Additionally, every parent wants their child to be as healthy and as ‘fit’ as possible.

Homosexuality is a dead end for the parents concerned in all but rare cases. Ironically it might not be for wider society though as one theory of homosexuality holds that fertility levels and procreative levels for the matriarchal family side of gay men exceeds the societal average.

Originally Posted by Dykeward.
As to she-males there is no such thing in the sense that the biology is male. Therefore a male attracted to a she-male is a gay person with an additional kink or a straight person with some serious fuck up issues.


In other words, you can't answer the question. Men who are attracted to she-males don't fit into your black-and-white conception of sexuality, just as bisexuals don't.

When an intellectually honest person is confronted with facts or phenomena that don't fit his theory, he either alters his theory or discards it. He doesn't try to discard or downplay the facts, or pretend that the phenomena don't exist. You are clearly not an intellectually honest person.

Where is the lack of an answer – as I consider she males to be men, men who are attracted to them are therefore likely to be gay people with a kink or perhaps gay men who haven’t fully come out.

I have earlier stated that I believe that there is a large biological element to being gay therefore there’s your answer.

I can also conceive that as the more ancient part of our brains can be tricked into conceiving of a thing with over sized artificial breasts and heavily made up as somewhat female that serious hetero fuck ups might also occasionally find them attractive.

As earlier mentioned seems some guys that used to post on here were busted a year or two ago after pictures were posted of them with Thai ‘women’ who looked decidedly odd specimens of womanhood.

Human variation is a wide ranging territory with the billions of people on earth. I’m not writing a scientific paper and you certainly aint as what you say seems to bear no relation to anything apart from your own experiences and a campaigning site to redeem homosexuals with a strong religious undercurrent.

How many she-males are there in the world? One in 100,000 maximum? How many people are attracted to them as a kink, no idea but infinitesimally small I would guess.

I can see that fetishes might divert people to do some odd stuff but in the vast majority of cases this is harmless S&M, or focuses on particular body parts, women as nurses and the like. In small amounts of cases people might want to cannibalise their partners or such outlandish things. You want to try to generalise from the extreme to the everyday but you just don’t manage to do it very well.

Originally Posted by Dykeward.
Are she-males born that way? No firm idea, but I suspect yes there is an underlying biological element.

I wasn't asking if she-males are "born that way." I was asking if the men who are attracted to them are. My, you are a slippery one, aren't you?

See above.


So really Igor we are back to square one. I hold that a fairly strong biological component will likely be found for homosexuality and that the links I supplied seem to support that.

So does a quick flick through www.NewScientist.com or Scientific American http://www.sciam.com/ and no doubt many other similar sites.

You ask me for links or references to what I am arguing yet all I receive in return is a link to a campaigning group that has a bias towards rescuing gay men from themselves.

Are the gay lobby that omnipotent that funding for all these scientific studies goes through their hands? Do they oversee the results before they allow them to be published? With some people everything moves to drumbeat of ‘the Jews’ with you it must be ‘the gays’. Jesus wept.


You also come up with the pretty crazy argument that people are successfully turning kids through a variety of propaganda techniques into being gay.... That might help you rationalise the situation with past acquaintances in your personal life but I'm not buying.

You won’t engage with the links whereby I show that scientific tests on men have shown that gay male brains are similar to womens, that other biological markers can be found in gay men in higher proportions than in the general society and that homosexuality is a fairly stable percentage in most societies that have been studied and not higher in more liberal pro gay nations where if your argument had any validity you would expect to see a higher rate. This ties in other areas in biology where new tests since the discovery of DNA, the outgrowth of disciplines such as neurobiology and the like enable us to look that much deeper than ever before.

If you didn't use the word 'dude' in your post I would assume you learned these views around the 60s: GLR thought similarly that you can reform homosexuality.

But all things considered you have the gall to call me intellectually dishonest!

Do me a favour, 'dude' go sell your snake oil to someone else.

Yes, Haider was, but who cares? He loved our people and dedicated himself to our service. :troll


The communist pack accused Hitler and his party after The NS victory in 1933 to be a homo-erotic companienship ("homoerotische Kumpanei").
Compared to "heterosexuell" politicians a la Berlusconi, Bush or Brown there were rather less than more males standing behind Haider.:cool:

Haider did not play his role as a heterosexuell man in public as quite a few of idiotic VNN hyenas are programmed to expect from politicians.
Charisma will attract men as well as woman to a leader, who will eventually become "the man in My life".
Jelinek, a communist cunt, is behind all the shameful homo-nazi-accusations.
VNNers falling for it are dubious creatures to say the least.

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/9/9a/Really_gay_propaganda.jpg

Yeah right some propaganda signs were totally not gay...

Yeah right some propaganda signs were totally not gay...

Still polluting VNN, Belgian cunt? :troll

Still polluting VNN, Belgian cunt? :troll
Just pointing some things out.

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/9/9a/Really_gay_propaganda.jpg

I don't really see anything homosexual about that poster, and I'll venture to say that neither did NS Germans.

What I do see is industry, strength, honour, brotherhood, purity, beauty and health.


You seem to be applying today's perverted, neurotic, degenerate, scatological judeo-mores to the psychologically sound Aryans of yesterday.

Just pointing some things out.

Is this before or after you sold drugs to earn a little extra cash?

Have you seen pictures of his daughter's doll? I guess she left it out too long, under direct sunshine:

http://i.bunte.de/img/gen/3/H/HB3HITCN_Pxgen_r_630xA.JPG



Likely, in a leather bar, within the vicinity of the studio filming the "Rawhide" television series:

http://files.newsnetz.ch/story/1/4/3/14322731/9/1.jpg

YouTube - Rawhide - TV Series THEME (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2_NMcKOBY8&feature=related)

Did he marry his grandma? She looks like that old bitty Prince Charlie dumped poor Lady Di for Actually him having his daughter tote that doll is almost more scary than the fag thing.
Even more scary than her Mum. Now it is true that when closetoids marry they tend to hook up with antedeluvian hags, Blax, Chinx, etc

YouTube - John Ryan - I Wish I Were A Fairy

Is this before or after you sold drugs to earn a little extra cash?

Are you qualified to judge what i do of my free time ?

At least i'm not whining and crying on a forum or spreading rumors...

...Now it is true that when closetoids marry they tend to hook up with antedeluvian hags, Blax, Chinx, etc...I would imagine that antideluvian hags tend to appeal more to mother-in-laws, compared to a glamourous, feminine type. The ball-busting, overbearing hag types tend to project a sense of duty, in keeping the family intact. While the feminine type could cause a feeling of insecurity for the mother-in-law, primarily, because of her attractiveness to other men, giving the impression that the marriage is hanging from a thread. Especially, if this type happens to be self-assertive.
One notices, however, the psychological castration of which these men suffer who end up in marriages with antideluvian battle axes, by the higher squeaked by these men when they open their mouths, compared to the lower octave tone of voice they project, in the conjugal bond with feminine type wives

From Homosexuality in America: Exposing the Myths (http://www.afa.net/homosexual_agenda/homosexuality.pdf):

Since AIDS and homosexuality are inseparably connected, homosexuals are active in promoting their cause in the world of medicine and science.

According to a recent report in the Washington Times scientists at the federally funded National Cancer Institute have put basic cancer research on the back burner in favor of hunting for a genetic link for homosexuality.65 The research is being led by a homosexual scientist – a fact that has gone largely unreported. 66

Molecular biologist Dean H. Hamer is the research leader and an acknowledged homosexual. Hamer has been a speaker for several pro-homosexual groups. He also appeared as a key expert witness for the legal coalition fighting Colorado’s Amendment 2, the state initiative to deny protected minority class status on the basis of sexual orientation. The director of the lesbian side of the research project is Angela M. L. Pattatucci, herself an acknowledged homosexual.67

The Washington Times reported that the genetic hunt involves four of the six researchers in the Institute’s Section on Gene Structure and Regulation in the Laboratory of Biochemistry. The story also indicated that NCI rejected repeated requests from the newspaper for budget information. However, the newspaper did report $419,000 in taxpayer money was spent on a controversial two-year study published in 1993. The research made a dubious genetic link for homosexuality. The report was enthusiastically embraced by homosexual activists.

[T]here is no scientific evidence which demonstrates that homosexuality is genetically endowed. It is true that some studies have been construed in the popular press as lending credence to the genetic cause theory.

A study from the National Cancer Institute conducted by Dr. Dean Hamer and others supposedly finds “a genetic link to homosexuality.” The study reported that families of 76 gay men included a much higher proportion of homosexual male relatives than found in the general population, with the frequency appearing on the mother’s side of the family tree.86 The research team focused on an examination of the X chromosome and discovered that “33 out of 40 pairs of brothers who were both gay had a similar genetic structure in the Xq28 area of the X chromosome.”87 Thus, some have concluded that there is a biological orientation to homosexuality.88 Several comments can be made regarding this conclusion.

First, some researchers argue that to link specific behavior with a specific gene “is generally considered highly unlikely by geneticists.”89 Dr. Joseph Nicolosi, director of the Thomas Aquinas Psychological Clinic, comments: Homosexuality is much more complex than mere behavior and includes many complex dimensions, including thoughts, feelings, fantasies, specific attractions and identity.90

A second comment to be made regarding the Hamer conclusion is, since it is the case that psychologists and ministers are treating homosexuality with success, then the genetic cause theory must be suspect. This is the argument of Dr. Charles W. Socarides, president of the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality.91

A third comment to be made regarding the Hamer conclusion is, there are criticisms to be made against the study itself. Robert H. Knight makes a number of criticisms of the study including:92 The small sample size,…the researchers’ bias that homosexuality is “a naturally occurring variation” of sexuality; the fact that no heterosexual control group was used; and the large number of exceptions that were recorded.93 According to Knight, 14 of the 80 who allegedly were homosexual did not have the marker, and Hamer offers no explanation for the deviation.

Additionally, there are a number of studies critical of biologic theories in general.94 Thus, it is unwarranted to argue for a genetic theory of homosexuality based on any supposedly conclusive studies.

Another theory claiming a physical basis of homosexuality is a theory based on the supposed differences in the brains of homosexuals and heterosexuals. In the August, 1991, issue of Science, Dr. Simon LeVay reported on the differences in the neuron group INAH3, which is next to the hypothalamus, between homosexuals and heterosexuals. He claimed that the neuron group was smaller in homosexuals. In his research, LeVay supposedly discovered from 41 autopsies that 19 subjects were homosexual (including one bisexual), having apparently died from complications of AIDS; 16 were presumed heterosexual men; and six were presumed heterosexual women.95 Though this research was heralded in the popular press as collaborating other research claiming a physical cause of homosexuality, it can be shown to be faulty. Grant and Horne comment:

"To say that this experiment is exceedingly dubious is a gross understatement. LeVay is attempting to tell us that he has found a difference between the brains of homosexuals and heterosexuals when he actually has no idea if there are really any heterosexuals in his group."96

They also point out that even homosexuals were critical of LeVay’s claims. The Bay Area Reporter accused LeVay of having “a sloppy control group” and of engaging in circular reasoning.97 Scientists also criticized his research. Dr. Paul Cameron wrote:

"Three out of the 19 homosexuals have a larger INAH3 than the mean size for “heterosexuals” (the second largest INAH3 belonged to a gay) and three of sixteen “heterosexuals” had a smaller INAH3 than the mean size for homosexuals…According to LeVay’s theory, three of the “heterosexuals” should have been homosexual, and three of the “homosexuals” should have been heterosexual. When you completely misclassify six of 35, you don’t have much of a theory."98

Thus, there is no reason to believe that homosexuality has anything to do with the hypothalamus.

A 1972 study by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control revealed that 50% of male homosexuals have had over 500 different sexual partners. For AIDS victims the average is 1,100 different sexual partners.

In one study, two homosexual researchers found that 73% of adult male homosexuals had had sex with boys age 19 or younger.

93% report anal sexual relations.

92% report oral/anal sexual activity.

17% report eating and/or rubbing themselves with the feces of their partners.

29% report urinating on or in their partners.

37% report sadomasochism.

42% report “handballing” or “fisting” where the hand or arm is inserted into the rectum of their partner.

32% report bondage.

12% report giving or receiving of enemas for sexual pleasure.

15% report sex with animals.

I suppose the ones who have sex with animals were also "born that way"?

Study indicating zoophiles (people with sexual attraction to animals) are disproportionately homosexual:
http://www.homosexinfo.org/Sexuality/Zoophilia

http://www.homosexinfo.org/Sexuality/Slang

COFFIN QUEEN: a homosexual who prefers to sodomize dead bodies.

Is this practice common enough among queers to require its own term?

Why do so many perversions, vices, and mental illnesses seem to converge in individuals who are homosexual?

From The Health Risks of Gay Sex (http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0075.html):

Common sexual practices among gay men lead to numerous STDs and physical injuries, some of which are virtually unknown in the heterosexual population. Lesbians are also at higher risk for STDs. In addition to diseases that may be transmitted during lesbian sex, a study at an Australian STD clinic found that lesbians were three to four times more likely than heterosexual women to have sex with men who were high-risk for HIV.

...by 1984, after the AIDS epidemic had taken hold, homosexual men were reportedly curtailing promiscuity, but not by much. Instead of more than 6 partners per month in 1982, the average non-monogamous respondent in San Francisco reported having about 4 partners per month in 1984.6

[...]

The data relating to gay promiscuity were obtained from self-identified gay men. Some advocates argue that the average would be lower if closeted homosexuals were included in the statistics.9 That is likely true, according to data obtained in a 2000 survey in Australia that tracked whether men who had sex with men were associated with the gay community. Men who were associated with the gay community were nearly four times as likely to have had more than 50 sex partners in the six months preceding the survey as men who were not associated with the gay community.10 This may imply that it is riskier to be "out" than "closeted." Adopting a gay identity may create more pressure to be promiscuous and to be so with a cohort of other more promiscuous partners.

Excessive sexual promiscuity results in serious medical consequences — indeed, it is a recipe for transmitting disease and generating an epidemic.11

Promiscuity among lesbians is less extreme, but it is still higher than among heterosexual women. Overall, women tend to have fewer sex partners than men. But there is a surprising finding about lesbian promiscuity in the literature. Australian investigators reported that lesbian women were 4.5 times more likely to have had more than 50 lifetime male partners than heterosexual women (9 percent of lesbians versus 2 percent of heterosexual women); and 93 percent of women who identified themselves as lesbian reported a history of sex with men.17 Other studies similarly show that 75-90 percent of women who have sex with women have also had sex with men.18

Among the difficulties in establishing the pathologies associated with lesbianism is the problem of defining who is a lesbian.61 Study after study documents that the overwhelming majority of self-described lesbians have had sex with men.62 Australian researchers at an STD clinic found that only 7 percent of their lesbian sample had never had sexual contact with a male.63

Not only did lesbians commonly have sex with men, but with lots of men. They were 4.5 times as likely as exclusively heterosexual controls to have had more than 50 lifetime male sex partners.64 Consequently, the lesbians' median number of male partners was twice that of exclusively heterosexual women.65 Lesbians were three to four times more likely than heterosexual women to have sex with men who were high-risk for HIV disease-homosexual, bisexual, or IV drug-abusing men.66 The study "demonstrates that WSW [women who have sex with women] are more likely than non- WSW to engage in recognized HIV risk behaviours such as IDU , sex work, sex with a bisexual man, and sex with a man who injects drugs, confirming previous reports."67

In view of the record of lesbians having sex with many men, including gay men, and the increased incidence of intravenous drug use among lesbians, lesbians are not low risk for disease.

[A] Dutch study, published in the Archives of General Psychiatry, did indeed find a high rate of psychiatric disease associated with same-sex sex.77 Compared to controls who had no homosexual experience in the 12 months prior to the interview, males who had any homosexual contact within that time period were much more likely to experience major depression, bipolar disorder, panic disorder, agoraphobia and obsessive compulsive disorder. Females with any homosexual contact within the previous 12 months were more often diagnosed with major depression, social phobia or alcohol dependence. In fact, those with a history of homosexual contact had higher rates of nearly all psychiatric pathologies measured in the study.78 The researchers found "that homosexuality is not only associated with mental health problems during adolescence and early adulthood, as has been suggested, but also in later life."79 Researchers actually fear that methodological features of "the study might underestimate the differences between homosexual and heterosexual people."80

The Dutch researchers concluded, "this study offers evidence that homosexuality is associated with a higher prevalence of psychiatric disorders. The outcomes are in line with findings from earlier studies in which less rigorous designs have been employed."81 The researchers offered no opinion as to whether homosexual behavior causes psychiatric disorders, or whether it is the result of psychiatric disorders.

A 1998 study in Seattle found that 10 percent of HIV-positive men admitted they engaged in unprotected anal sex, and the percentage doubled in 2000.86 According to a study of men who attend gay "circuit" parties,87 the danger at such events is even greater. Ten percent of the men surveyed expected to become HIV-positive in their lifetime. Researchers discovered that 17 percent of the circuit party attendees surveyed were already HIV positive.88 Two thirds of those attending circuit parties had oral or anal sex, and 28 percent did not use condoms.89

In addition, drug use at circuit parties is ubiquitous. Although only 57 percent admit going to circuit parties to use drugs, 95 percent of the survey participants said they used psychoactive drugs at the most recent event they attended.90 There was a direct correlation between the number of drugs used during a circuit party weekend and the likelihood of unprotected anal sex.91 The researchers concluded that in view of their findings, "the likelihood of transmission of HIV and other Sexually Transmitted Diseases among party attendees and secondary partners becomes a real public health concern."92

Social approval of gay sex leads to an increase in such behavior. As early as 1993, Newsweek reported that the growing media presence and social acceptance of homosexual behavior was leading to teenager experimentation to the extent that it was "becoming chic."115 A more recent report stated that "the way gays and lesbians appear in the media may make some people more comfortable acting on homosexual impulses."116 In addition, one of the goals of GLB advocates' quest for domestic partner benefits from employers is to motivate more gays and lesbians "to come out of the closet."117 If, as suggested above, being "out" results in a greater incidence of promiscuity, employer decisions to provide domestic partner benefits may have a negative impact on employee health. Indeed, giving gays and lesbians the social approval they desire may ultimately lead to an early death for employees who otherwise might have restrained their sexual behavior.

Research designed to prove that gays and lesbians are "born that way" has come up empty — there is no scientific evidence that being gay or lesbian is genetically determined.118 Even researcher Dean Hamer, who once hoped he had identified a "gay gene," admits "there is a lot more than just genes going on."119

[E]ndeavors to assess the actual practices and the health consequences of male and female homosexual behavior are hampered by imprecise definitions. For many, being gay or lesbian or bisexual is a political identity that does not necessarily correspond to sexual behavior. And investigators find that sexual behavior fluctuates over time:

[I]"[P]eople often change their sexual behavior during their lifetimes, making it impossible to state that a particular set of behaviors defines a person as gay. A man who has sex with men today, for example, might not have done so 10 years ago."120

Defining the terms becomes even more difficult when people who identify as gay or lesbian enter heterosexual relationships. Joanne Loulan, a well-known lesbian, has talked openly about her two-year relationship with a man: "'I come from this background that sex is an activity, it's not an identity,' says Loulan. 'It was funny for a while, but then it turned out to be something more connected, more deep. Something more important. And that's when my life started really going topsy turvy.'" While critics complain that "You can't be a lesbian and be having sex with men," Loulan sees no contradiction in the fact that she "adamantly refuses to call herself a bisexual, to give up the lesbian identity."121

Several high-profile lesbian media stars that have abandoned lesbianism further illustrate the difficulty in defining homosexuality. An article about the now defunct couple, Anne Heche and Ellen Degeneres, said, "Although the pair never publicly discussed the reason for their breakup, it has been heavily rumored that Heche decided to go back to heterosexuality."122 Heche married a man on Sept. 1, 2001.123

As recently as June 2000, pop-music star Sinead O'Connor said, "I'm a lesbian . . . although I haven't been very open about that, and throughout most of my life I've gone out with blokes because I haven't necessarily been terribly comfortable about being a lesbian. But I actually am a lesbian."124 Then, shocking the gay world that applauded her "coming out," O'Connor's sexual identity fluctuated again when she withdrew from participating in a lesbian music festival because of her marriage to British Press Association reporter Nick Sommerlad.125

Although women get most of the press coverage of fluctuating between same-sex and heterosexual relationships, men can experience similar fluidity. Gay author John Stoltenberg has lived with a lesbian, Andrea Dworkin, since 1974.126 And a 2000 survey in Australia found that 19 percent of gay men reported having sex with a woman in the six months prior to the survey.127

http://www.narth.com/docs/josrrev.html

June 5, 2008 - The Journal of Sexual Research (Vol. 44, Issue 3, 2007) reviewed Lesbian Women and Sexual Health: The Social Construction of Risk and Susceptibility by K.A. Dolan.

Dolan recruited 162 self-identified lesbian women from a large southeastern city for her study. All of them filled out a 50-page survey. Seventy of them completed a 1-2 hour face-to-face interview. She defined lesbianism using the subject's own self-definition. She did not exclude women who had had sex with men in the past, present or future.

According to the reviewer, "This fits with data indicating that a minority of women who identify as lesbian have had sex exclusively with women (only 47% in Einhom & Polgar, 1994). In that study, sex with men was common; 21% had had vaginal sex with a man in the past year; and 15% had sex in the prior year with a man who might have had sex with another man, thus confirming results from Cochran and Mays (1996) that lesbian women may experiment with their gay male friends."

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/331/14/923

[S]ince vaginal secretions and menstrual blood are known to be implicated in female-to-male transmission of the [HIV] virus, lesbians in relationships with seropositive women or who have multiple partners, including men or women of unknown HIV status, are routinely advised to use safe-sex practices.

http://www.homosexinfo.org/Change/HomePage

...most self-identified homosexuals pass through a bisexual phase in adolescence/youth.

...in a study of male homosexuals demonstrating a penile response indicative of predominant homosexuality, 20% could produce a penile response indicative of predominant heterosexuality when requested.

http://stevencwatts.newsvine.com/_news/2006/03/17/137765-homosexuality-nature-versus-nurture

[A] study by M. T. Saghir and E. Robins "found that 18 percent of homosexual men and 35 percent of homosexual women had lost their father by death or divorce before the age of ten." This, too, is no "smoking gun," but the percentage rate is far above average for children losing their parents. Other points include the high rate of childhood sexual trauma among women who become lesbians.

http://eatmorecookies.wordpress.com/2008/06/17/does-this-mean-the-liberal-media-cant-make-me-gay/

When will people in this country wake up to the FACT of important biological bases for homosexuality? To discriminate against our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters is akin to discrimination against people for any other genetic nonconformity, and it’s an affront to the principles of equality on which this nation was founded.

http://jrscience.wcp.muohio.edu/Research/HNatureProposalsArticles/queerbychoice.html

It is very silly of all you scholarly people to be conducting studies to find out why I'm queer. All you have to do is ask me. I have a hell of a lot more firsthand insight into the matter than you have. And I will tell you plainly: I am queer by choice. I used to be hetero so let me tell you, you het people have no clue what you're missing out on. I am certainly not the only one who feels this way.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3582

"As political and economic freedom diminishes" said Aldous Huxley in Brave New World, "sexual freedom tends compensatingly to increase." ... The state strips away your personal, economic and political freedom, yet grants you sexual freedom in return, boldly hailing itself as your liberator. ... The more crushing ideological censorship and political repression become, the more frantic the displays of "sexual freedom" get. Sex is freedom; freedom means sex, and only sex.

Somewhere along this thread, Dykeward alleged that a "low" rate of homosexuality would somehow disprove the idea that propaganda is a factor leading people into homosexuality. His argument is nonsense. What Dykeward would need to make his case isn't a low, but rather, constant rate of homosexuality throughout, say, 100 years. If the rate of homosexuality in a given population were to rise from, say, 1.5% to 3% within a 25 year period, that would still be a relatively "low" rate, but it would represent a doubling in the number of homosexuals.

Since estimates of the rate of homosexuality have varied from as little as 1% to as much as 10% in the last 70 years, it is clear that the data required for Dykeward to make his case simply don't exist.

Besides, nowhere in this thread did I argue for a "high" rate of homosexuality. In fact, I categorically reject the homosexual lobby's claim that 10% of the population is queer, and expressed that opinion early on in the thread.

And contrary to Dykeward's unsubstantiated claim that bisexuals are rarer than homosexuals, you can see that according to the researchers mentioned below, in America bisexual men are a larger group than homosexual men. This figure would be higher -- probably much higher -- if you were to include bisexual females.

In a recent review of studies conducted in the United States on sexual behavior, Seidman and Rieder estimated that 2 percent of men are currently exclusively homosexual and that an additional 3 percent are bisexual.11

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/331/14/923

From Homosexual Myths (http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/homomyth.html):

"People Are Born Gay."

Ann Landers said it, and millions of people believe it. The problem is, the data's not there to support it. There are three ways to test for inborn traits: twin studies, brain dissections, and gene "linkage" studies.(6) Twin studies show that something other than genetics must account for homosexuality, because nearly half of the identical twins studied didn't have the same sexual preference. If homosexuality were inherited, identical twins should either be both straight or both gay. Besides, none of the twin studies have been replicated, and other twin studies have produced completely different results.(7) Dr. Simon LeVay's famous study on the brains of dead subjects yielded questionable results regarding its accuracy. He wasn't sure of the sexual orientation of the people in the study, and Dr. LeVay even admits he doesn't know if the changes in the brain structures were the cause *of* homosexuality, or caused *by* homosexuality.(8) Finally, an early study attempting to show a link between homosexuality and the X- chromosome has yet to be replicated, and a second study actually contradicted the findings of the first.(9)

If the twin studies that showed that about half the identical twins examined shared the same homosexual orientation are trustworthy, then it seems likely that a prenatal factor is involved. But I never claimed that such a factor couldn't be involved, or that genetics don't influence a person's decision/compulsion to be homosexual; I just argued that homosexuality isn't predetermined, at least not in the majority of cases. The twin studies in question bear that out unequivocally.

A Finnish study involving a random sample of 6,001 female and 3,152 male twins, published in 2008, found the link between heredity and homosexuality to be even more tenuous, and that's allowing for a generous interpretation of its results:

http://www.narth.com/docs/isminor.html

Twin studies are favorites of mine because of the potential light they throw on the origins of same-sex attractions (SSA). The latest one (Santtila et al., 2008) is three times larger than any previous study - in fact, larger than all the rest put together.

Does this latest study teach us something new? Quick answer: No. It confirms the best recent studies, which tell us that genetic factors are minor; non-genetic factors are major.

The results ... do in fact, reinforce one conclusion drawn from previous studies. That is, if one identical twin--male or female--has SSA, the chances are only about 10% that the co-twin also has it. In other words, identical twins usually differ for SSA.

The authors believe prenatal hormonal theories as a cause of SSA do not hold up, because they should lead to greater similarity between identical twins, not less similarity as we see above. Also, we see a continuation of an already-established trend -- the more recent and better-conducted the study, the smaller the detected genetic influence on SSA.

Anyone who claims that homosexuality is a primarily inherited condition is treading on thin ice.

Researcher Sees Hair Whorl Direction As Indicator Of Genetic Basis For Homosexuality (http://www.narth.com/docs/whorl.html):

March 12, 2008 - Richard Lippa, Professor of Psychology at Cal State Fullerton, does research to find a genetic basis for homosexuality.

In one study, he claims he found that 21.3 [per cent?] of men at gay pride festivals had counterclockwise hair whorls; under 10% in the general population had clockwise whorls. Lippa appeared on the Tyra Banks show in October, 2007 to discuss his findings.

Lippa not only looks at hair whorls, but left- or right-handedness to discover patterns among homosexuals and heterosexuals. According to his study, approximately 13% more gay males are left-handed than heterosexual males; 11% of heterosexual males are left-handed. More lesbian woman (13%) are left-handed than straight women; 10% of heterosexual women are left-handed.

Interesting that the very guy whose research Dykeward cites as evidence that homosexuality is predetermined doesn't treat female homosexuality as though it's "qualitatively different" from male homosexuality in this study.

And maybe it's just me, but looking at "whorl" patterns at pride parades and comparing them to the "general population" doesn't exactly strike me as methodologically sound. Taking a random sampling of say, 1000 heterosexuals and 1000 homosexuals and comparing their "whorl" patterns would be a step in the right direction.

Lastly, if hair "whorls" are supposed to be an indicator of homosexuality, how do Lippa (and Dykeward) explain the approximately 80% of homosexual men at pride parades who don't have counterclockwise whorls, and the approximately 10% of the "general" population (who I suppose we are to assume are heterosexual) who do?

Lippa is currently working with two biologists on DNA research to discover if there is a gay gene or one that can prove that there is a bisexual gene.

Interesting that the very guy whose research Dykeward cites as evidence that homosexuality is predetermined doesn't deny the existence of bisexuality.

Ali Mushtaq, a member of the Cal State Fullerton Queer Straight Alliance, supports such research if it dispels stereotypes about gays. Mushtaq is conducting his own research on sociological factors. He believes that if studies show a genetic basis for homosexuality, the general public will have a more difficult time discriminating against gays.

As I have repeatedly said, the homosexual lobby supports the idea that queers are "born that way." Anyone who takes this position against all evidence to the contrary is either wittingly or unwittingly supporting the homosexual agenda.

He notes, however, that a genetic basis could be used to claim that homosexuals are "born deviant."

Well Ali, you can't have your jam (http://www.homosexinfo.org/Sexuality/Slang) and eat it too.

According to Lippa, men are more "biologically" determined than women, whereas women with high sex drives tend to desire both genders. "Women are more flexible and fluid than men, and tend to be bisexual," said Lippa.

Strange position for Lippa to take, considering that nearly the same number of dykes are left-handed in relation to heterosexuals as fags. If left-handedness is evidence of faggotry being predetermined, then it must also prove that lesbianism is predetermined, no? His statements are inconsistent.

Note that the same guy who Dykeward cites for evidence that homosexuality is predetermined states that women "tend to be bisexual."

And on the subject of female bisexuality, I'll repeat my earlier question: if our present environment of permissiveness and even tacit encouragement towards homosexuality can result in higher rates of homosexual activity among females, isn't that sufficient reason in itself to oppose such an environment?

The rest of the article speaks for itself:

A CNN report from 2007 quotes Dr. Douglas Abbott on Lippa's claims:

There is no evidence of a "gay gene," says Douglas Abbott, Ph.D., Professor of Child and Family Studies at the University of Nebraska.

Abbott points to studies that look at the sexual orientation of the offspring of gay people. "If homosexuality was caused by genetic mechanisms, their children would be more likely to choose same-sex interaction," he says. "But they aren't more likely, so therefore it can't be genetic."

For Abbott, the answer to the nature-vs.-nurture question is very clear. "I think the primary causes of same-sex behavior are environmental and personal choice and free agency," he says. "Can someone change their orientation? The definitive answer to that is, "yes."

Lippa's most recent research was published in Archives of Sexual Behavior, April, 2007.

No need to worry. Since experts tell us that sexual orientation is predetermined, there's no chance that a comic book with a homosexual superhero could confuse children about their sexuality. Or is there?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/5030518.stm

Batwoman hero returns as lesbian

Last Updated: Tuesday, 30 May 2006, 15:08 GMT

Comic book heroine Batwoman is to make a comeback as a "lipstick lesbian" who moonlights as a crime fighter, a DC Comics spokesman has confirmed.

Batwoman - real name Kathy Kane - will appear in 52, a year-long DC Comics publication that began this month.

In her latest incarnation, she is a rich socialite who has a romantic history with another 52 character, ex-police detective Renee Montoya.

52 will be published in the UK as a graphic novel by Titan Books in 2007.

The series is set in a world in which established superheroes Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman do not play a part.

The new-look Batwoman is just one of a wave of ethnically and sexually diverse characters entering the DC Comics universe.

Others include Mexican teenager Blue Beetle - who replaces the character's previous white incarnation - and the Great Ten, a government-sponsored team of Chinese superheroes.

Regular characters Firestorm and The Atom, meanwhile, have been reinvented as black and Asian heroes respectively.

The characters are part of a wider effort to broaden the make-up of comic-book creations in line with society as a whole.

Batwoman, who first appeared in July 1956, has not been seen since September 1979 when she was killed by the League of Assassins and the Bronze Tiger.

Hey fellas, great news! Getting fucked up the ass is a normal and healthy part of male sexuality. In fact, up to 60% of straight men want to get fucked up the ass by their wives or girlfriends. And to think that some of you unprogressive paranoid homophobic conspiracy wackos think there's a campaign underway to bisexualize the public...

Danes Told Anal Sex "Healthy" for Men
A Letter from Philip Jones to Henry Makow – April 7, 2008

Dear Henry,

Your latest article `Homophobic panic Grips Canada` was barely posted when Ekstra Bladet, a daily `News` Paper here in Denmark ran an article in Sundays edition entitled 'Anal Sex is healthy for men'. The author, a Danish `Sexologist` Mr Robert Lubarski, writes that `men should surrender themselves to their sexuality, and that it was time that the social spotlight was shone on the `Male Orgasm`.

He continues that 'Men who allow the accepted male role to dictate their habits in the bedroom are negatively affecting themselves' and that some men who have experienced Anal Sex worry that they might be Homosexual (a fair bet I think). He is concerned that today's man focus's too much on what he believes is his expected part to play sexually, instead of simply enjoying himself.

This self proclaimed Sexual Guru, has his wife to bugger him with a strap on dildo. He doesn't believe that a man who allows his girlfriend to sodomise him with said `strap on` is any less of a man, quite the contrary. He believes that if a woman is so repulsed by such a request from her `lover` that she leaves him, then she wasn't worthy of the man's affections anyway.

In the article, he recommends that all men experience the joys of Anal Sex, particularly the `receptacle` part in the `play`. According to Mr Lubarski, the Anus is a very important part of a mans sexuality, and likens it's sensitivity to a woman's clitoris. He advises that men `massage` their prostate gland through the Anus, and suggests that either the owner of the gland, or his girlfriend/wife might do so.

The `News` paper then smugly states that six months ago, in a `poll`, 60% of male readers stated they enjoyed anal stimulation, and 62% of female readers answered that they enjoyed giving their male partners the afore mentioned stimulation.

Zany indeed ! Of course, if a woman is `buggering` her man, thereby taking on the male role, then she effectively becomes the dominant partner. Don't tell me this `Freakzoid` Lubarski isn't aware of this fact.

Feminism is the ultra poison of our age. So much of the evil flows from it, it is one the Illuminati's premier vehicles for dispersal, and this latest piece of bile, if adopted/accepted by all those idiot men who can't see the wood for the trees, will be the final nail in the coffin of male patriarchy, soundly hammered in.

This article was printed in a Daily, where children and teenagers would have had easy access to this poison. Danish society along with most others in Western Europe is so far past the point of no return now, that for any decent minded person, the situation is intolerable. How on earth are parents expected to raise their children to be adults with a sound moral base, in a society which openly promotes and flaunts perversion and degradation as being `healthy` practice ?

And you think you have problems over there.

Philip Jones
The original article (in Danish) can be found at http://ekstrabladet.dk/sex_og_samliv/article991375.ece

Next thing you know, the same "experts" who tell us 10% of the population is born "gay" will be telling us that getting fucked up the ass is a good way to prevent prostate cancer.

From Report: Pedophilia more common among 'gays' (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27431):

In her thesis ... Reisman cited psychologist Eugene Abel, whose research found that homosexuals "sexually molest young boys with an incidence that is occurring from five times greater than the molestation of girls. …"

Abel also found that non-incarcerated "child molesters admitted from 23.4 to 281.7 acts per offender … whose targets were males."

"The rate of homosexual versus heterosexual child sexual abuse is staggering," said Reisman, who was the principal investigator for an $800,000 Justice Department grant studying child pornography and violence. "Abel’s data of 150.2 boys abused per male homosexual offender finds no equal (yet) in heterosexual violations of 19.8 girls."

Baldwin says his research not only "confirms that homosexuals molest children at a rate vastly higher than heterosexuals," but it found that "the mainstream homosexual culture" even "commonly promotes sex with children."

Larry Kramer, the founder of ACT-UP, a noted homosexual activist group, wrote in his book, "Report from the Holocaust: The Making of an AIDS Activist": "In those instances where children do have sex with their homosexual elders, be they teachers or anyone else, I submit that often, very often, the child desires the activity, and perhaps even solicits it."

A 1988 study detailed in Baldwin's report found that most pedophiles even consider themselves to be "gay." According to the study, "Archives of Sexual Behavior," some 86 percent of pedophiles described themselves as homosexual or bisexual. Also, the study found, the number of teenage male prostitutes who identify as homosexuals has risen from 10 percent to 60 percent in the past 15 years.

"How long will psychologists eagerly throw open the door to gay life for every sexually confused teenager?" writes Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D, on behalf of NARTH – the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality – a group that says it exists to "provide psychological understanding of the cause, treatment and behavior patterns associated with homosexuality, within the boundaries of a civil public dialogue."

From Homosexuality and child molestation: the link, the likelihood, the lasting effects (http://www.afajournal.org/archives/23060000011.asp):

Are children safe in the presence of homosexuals, or are they in danger of sexual abuse that may, in fact, lead them into the homosexual lifestyle?

[In 1972,] [a]ctivists in Chicago, representing the fledgling homosexual movement, demanded the “[r]epeal of all state laws prohibiting private sexual acts involving consenting persons,” and the “[r]epeal of all laws governing the age of sexual consent.”

Such homosexuals see society’s disapproval of adult-child sex as the transgression, rather than the adult-child sex itself. In The Age Taboo: Gay Male Sexuality, Power and Consent, lesbian author Pat Califia said, “Boy lovers and the lesbians who have young lovers…are not child molesters. The child abusers are priests, teachers, therapists, cops and parents who force their staid morality onto the young people in their custody.”

Moreover, for many homosexuals, this same-sex attraction to minors may stem from their own sexual experiences. Research shows that very often homosexuals had their own initial same-sex encounter with an adult while children. (See AFA Journal, May 1999.)

Writing in The Advocate, a magazine for homosexuals, Carl Maves agreed. “How many gay men, I wonder, would have missed out on a valuable, liberating experience – one that initiated them into their sexuality – if it weren’t for so-called molestation?” he said.

David Thorstad, a founding member of NAMBLA and former president of New York’s Gay Activists Alliance, says homosexual activists have supressed pedophilia in order “to sanitize the image of homosexuality to facilitate its entrance into the social mainstream.”

When pedophiles strike, the results are often disastrous. A recent review (Holmes and Slap, 1998) of the research on the molestation of boys, published in the prestigious Journal of the American Medical Association showed that adolescent boys who were abused by men were up to seven times more likely to identify themselves as homosexual or bisexual.

Furthermore, research also shows a strong link between the sexual abuse of a child and that child’s later pedophilia as an adult. At the Connecticut Correctional Institution, for example, clinical psychologist A. Nicholas Groth, director of the sex offender program, said 85% of the pedophiles were themselves sexually assaulted as youths.

This casts certain parts of the homosexual agenda in a more sinister light – such as the drive to lower the legal age of sexual consent and to expunge sodomy laws from the books. It might also cause parents to wonder why homosexual activists are tireless in their efforts to use the courts as a crowbar to pry open the doors of the Boy Scouts to homosexual troop leaders.

What will research show in ten years? Twenty years? Will we discover that we have handed over an entire generation, only to discover that homosexuality in this nation has doubled or tripled?

If it is true, as evidence suggests, that children can be recruited into the homosexual lifestyle, what will history say about a generation of adults that swallowed – hook, line and sinker – the lies fabricated by the very ones who abused their children?

http://www.cfacr.org/pages/article.php?aid=296

Jakii Edwards was raised by two lesbian parents. She does not think children should be raised by homosexual couples; it is not the same as having a mother and a father.

“But when a child lives in an environment where mom is kissing mom and daddy is kissing daddy, it leaves the child with voyeurism issues, with gender-identity issues — we question whether we have to be gay like mommy is gay or like daddy is gay.”

She feels that good intentions are not enough; children need both a mother and a father in a stable relationship. What hasn’t been looked at objectively is the turmoil faced by children in homosexual homes.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-480151/Gay-couple-left-free-abuse-boys--social-workers-feared-branded-homophobic.html

Gay couple left free to abuse boys - because social workers feared being branded homophobic
By PAUL SIMS
Last updated at 21:53 05 September 2007

A homosexual foster couple were left free to sexually abuse vulnerable boys in their care because social workers feared being accused of discrimination if they investigated complaints, an inquiry concluded yesterday.

Craig Faunch and Ian Wathey were one of the first homosexual couples in the country to be officially approved as foster parents.

They looked after 18 children in only 15 months.

With no previous convictions, they came across as respectable men who simply wanted to help boys with a variety of problems.

In reality, they were paedophiles, who repeatedly abused the children in their care.

Even when the mother of two of the children reported her suspicions to the council, officials accepted the men's explanations and did nothing.

Instead of banning children from staying with Faunch and Wathey, they sent youngsters with more serious problems to them. Between them, the couple abused four boys aged between eight and 14.

In a scathing report published yesterday, Wakefield Metropolitan District Council was condemned for treating the men as "trophy carers".

The children's charity Kidscape said those in charge of overseeing the safety of children in the care of Faunch and Wathey had allowed political correctness to override common sense.

The report, following an independent review of the case, said: "One manager described the couple as 'trophy carers' which led to 'slack arrangements' over placement.

"Another said that by virtue of their sexuality they had a 'badge' which made things less questionable.

"The sexual orientation of the men was a significant cause of people not 'thinking the unthinkable'.

"It was clear that a number of staff were afraid of being thought homophobic.

"The fear of being discriminatory led them to fail to discriminate between the appropriate and the abusive."

The report also accused the council of failing to carry out proper assessments before and after the children were placed with Faunch and Wathey.

"Issues arose in the first longer-term placement of two children, including potential indicators of child sexual abuse, which were inadequately investigated, understood or acted upon," it said.

"More children were then placed with Faunch and Wathey, some successfully, some with concerns which were again inadequately investigated, understood or acted upon.

"The practice of some social workers in this case was deficient."

The report's authors, led by former Surrey social services chief Brian Parrott, said they could not be sure that Faunch and Wathey were "predatory paedophiles" who became foster carers in order to have access to children.

They added: "Our criticisms are much more of those in middle management whose job it was to piece together what was really happening, to ask the right questions and to be critical and probing."

Wathey, 42, was jailed for five years in June last year after being convicted of four counts of sexual activity with a child and one offence of causing a child to watch sexual activity.

Faunch, 33, received a six-year jail sentence after he was found guilty of five charges of engaging in sexual activity with a child and two of taking indecent photographs of a child.

The couple, who lived together in Pontefract, West Yorkshire, were approved as foster carers by the council in August 2003.

Their victims included a 14-year-old boy with Asperger's syndrome, a form of autism, who had a mental age of seven and was forced by Wathey to watch gay pornography.

Another youngster with a "very troubled background" was only in their care for a few weeks before being abused by Faunch.

But social workers had been aware of "inappropriate" behaviour long before then.

Just eight months after they started as professional foster carers a mother of eight-year-old twins, who couldn't cope with raising them on her own, voiced concerns about them with social services.

While visiting the twins, the 34-year-old single mother was shown a picture taken by Faunch showing one of the boys going to the lavatory during a visit to Butlin's holiday camp in Skegness and discovered a similar snap had been taken of the other twin.

A social worker took the photograph and promised a full investigation.

But the court heard that not only did social services staff lose the photo, they decided against contacting police after accepting Faunch's explanation that he was trying to embarrass the boys into shutting the lavatory door.

Police later discovered that, days after the photos were taken, Faunch recorded an indecent video of the twins taking a shower. They began abusing the boys three months later.

Undetected, the offences continued over an 11-month period, Leeds Crown Court was told last year.

Police were called in to investigate the couple only after one of the abused boys told a woman he had been touched by one of the men.

Faunch abused all four boys and Wathey targeted one of them.

Judge Sally Cahill, QC, said neither had shown "empathy, remorse or any responsibility for their actions".

Yesterday's report said that the fostering panel which approved Faunch and Wathey accepted without hesitation their request to look after only boys on the basis that they didn't feel equipped to look after girls.

The report made 41 recommendations for overhauling the council's fostering process.

Last night, Michelle Elliott, a director of Kidscape, said: "Common sense went out of the window when they allowed political correctness to take over in this case.

"I don't care if you are homosexual or bisexual - if you are taking care of children you need to be vetted and subjected to the same investigation as anyone else.

"Child abuse knows no gender boundaries."

Elaine McHale, the council's corporate director of family services, said it would be "inappropriate" to comment on the report until after a meeting of the full council on September 12.

The fact that Haider was assassinated is crystal clear.

The filth of this thread and those who paticipated in it is a reflection of the murderers intention.

The murderers, joking bastards and especially those who gave the order will
meet justice.

VENDETTA, as the Italiens would say.

The fact that Haider was assassinated is crystal clear.

The filth of this thread and those who paticipated in it is a reflection of the murderers intention.

The murderers, joking bastards and especially those who gave the order will
meet justice.

VENDETTA, as the Italiens would say.

tuisto, do you think Haider had a tight ass?

tuisto, do you think Haider had a tight ass?

There are those clinging to the past and others to the future.

The ass is meaningful as point of release, the past, the stinking opening of hell, if you wish, while creation/future is located at the opposite side of the ass, known to be paradise with the fragrance of a rose.