I already read The Hobbit and I'm half-way through The Two Towers in the Lord of the Rings trilogy. I love the books: they're fascinating, entertaining, and clean. But I dont get why racialists promote them so much. I know racialism exists in Tolkien's books, but certainly not *racism*; in the traditional sense of the word. In my opinion Tolkien takes a sort of liberal approach in his series: Aragorn loves Arwen (whom is an elf), and the hobbits (which are half-breeds) are the heroes of the story. But, all negativity aside, I still enjoy the books.

What is your take?

I'm also about half way through The Two Towers. The trilogy is a fun read, the kind of read one savors page by page. I'm not a LOTR freak but I'll try and make some points relating to the LOTR's various themes and the messages I read in the books.

The LOTR can be seen as racialist works for a lot of reasons. I don't think that Tolkien was much of a racist. He is reported as saying that whatever he's trying to say in TLOTR is pretty much up to the individual reader to interpret. I read this sentiment as a white man disclaiming the racial nature of his work so as to avoid unwanted attention.

First, LOTR appeals almost solely to white readers. It is very much a work that the coloreds, that is the ones that can read such a long and complex book, will avoid. What appeal does the work have to non-whites? None. That says a lot. What nigger/gook/spic wants to read (or can) a fantasy novel of a thousand plus pages all about mythical white heroes?

The work is dominated by strong white male personas. And so it is mostly unappealing to girls. There is absolutely nothing misogynistic about LOTR, in fact women are vaunted and idolized, but let's face it, women don't want to read about a bunch of white guys on an epic quest. All the central characters are strong, honorable, decent white men. They are, in a word, the role-models that white men should strive to be.

Tolkien lived during a time of immense change in England. He saw his pastoral, simple, small-town life change to one of industry, greed, and environmental destruction. He also witnessed WWI, the first truly mechanized war and a nightmarish one at that. In the movies the orcs are often seen on screen and they are always hammering away in their forges and factories. Many people see LORT as more of a commentary on industrialization than as one on race.

The men of the West are besieged by a dark horde from the south and the east. Where do the real life immigrants into Europe and America (the West) come from? The middle east, Asia, Africa, ie the south and the eastern portions of the globe.

The humans, elves, and hobbits are constantly in danger of being overrun by the endless numbers of the enemy. White man is vastly outnumbered by the non-white horde. The books feature fair lands of green meadows and huge forests-white lands as opposed to the deserts and jungles of the third world.

I read once that Tolkien used the dwarves as an allegory for jews. They are reclusive, clannish, mistrusting, and concerned mostly with hording wealth in their mountain strongholds. Could be accurate.

The good guys represent light, white, and bright. They are also the far superior fighter and warrior, vanquishing numerically superior foes with ease and expertise. The bad guys are Black Riders, Dark Sauron on his throne brooding, Uruk-Hai born of mud in darkness. The eternal dichotomy of light vs. darkness.

The One Ring itself to me represents addiction. It could be money, women, drink, power, magic, anything and everything. It is the essence of dependence, or man's proclivity to become fixated on something to the point that his whole being is corrupted by that fixation. This then serves to distort and twist him to the point that he becomes a slave to the evil that always lurks in him.

Gollum is a central character in the book. I believe he represents what man can fall too if he gives himself over to his own lusts and passions. He represents the lack of self-control and self-discipline. He is what becomes of a white man who is manipulated by the forces that seek to destroy him. Depraved, insane, tragic, and foolish, Gollum is both the comedy and the emotion of the works.

LOTR came from a different time and place where whites had yet to be introduced to the wonders of diversity in their own nations. It is a warning to the dangers of unlimited industry, immigration, and hedonism, among other things. The good news is the white minority of warriors and fighters win in the end because a tiny insignificant like Frodo is forced to part with the thing he craves. It is a story of the white man being forced (Gollum bites off Frodo's finger to regain the ring) to part with his vice and his addiction to save his world and the world of his people from the murderous dark horde of mud beings invading and destroying everything that is good.

If I recall correctly, Tolkien had few kind words for Hitler, correct?




...

The reason racialists promote the LOTR is that it is one of the few, very few, modern works that is positive about White Heritage (In this case Anglo-Teutonic myth).

The work doesn't really go into much depth with negative racism, that is truth about non-White inferiority (In this case the Orcs, Haradim, etc.)



Many racialist interpretations (from a Jungian approach) state that Hobbits, Elves, Dwarves are just different White Nationalities in the story.

Expample of one such theory.

Elves = Nordics
Hobits = British
Dwarves = Meds.

Aragorn getting with Arwen would be like a Scotsmen getting with a Scandinavian, both are Occidental Causcasians so itz not miscegenation.

Almost all racialist theories about the Hobbits are that they represent the British, who are indeed a mixture of various Occidental Causcasian tribes: Saxonx, Picts, Welsh, Normans so on and so forth. Thatz why in the story they are half-breeds. (frankly I don't remember that part though.)

Hey also be sure to check out this thread.

Link: www.vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=4337


Sorry to be picky but there isnt a "British race" and so your lumping together of the Anglo-Saxons with the Scottish and Welsh is an historical and racial inaccuracy. There is no reason to segregate the Anglo-Saxons from other Teutonic peoples such as Scandinavians, Dutch and Germans.
I think that to draw such specific racial inferances from LOTR is a mistake. By all means view the work from a mythological perspective but not necessarily racial.

If I recall correctly, Tolkien had few kind words for Hitler, correct?




...

Absolutely correct.

Anyone with kind words for Hitler was locked up in a prison by Churchill in 1940-1945. After that a professor like Tolkien would lose his job in academia.

LOTR is more racist than Mein Kampf. Orcs are exterminated in a real holocaust.

Spearhead had a good article about it.

What a dumb thing to say. Fantasy of this type is VERY popular among women; in fact, slightly more popular among women than men. This is borne out by sales figures of fantasy books as well - slightly more women buy fantasy while slightly more men buy sci-fi. I'm a woman and I love LOTR. When I went to see it at the theatre the audience was mostly women.

BTW, some of the important heroes in LOTR are women. You'd know this, were you actually familiar with the series.

Hmm. I don't take kindly to being called dumb. Perhaps my broad generalization was inaccurate in your humble opinion. Seems all you do is point out how women are more extreme than we dumb white men take them to be. Apparently us white men are all wrong about women and you've elected yourself their spokesperson.

So women are more racist than men and enjoy LOTR more than men? News to me. Perhaps many women are into fantasy but it is highly debatable as to whether females are more into the 'old fashioned' mythic fantasy of yesteryears a la Tolkien. Why don't you recruit more of your girlfriends to VNN and show us just how racist real women are?

What makes LOTR's unique is that it is an epic motion picture almost conpletely void of Jewish influence. This was possible because Peter Jackson made the movie in remote New Zealand, and filmed all episodes simultaneously. If Hollywood had their say the probably would have made the elves black, and it would have been a box-office flop, like Matrix Revultions.

The women characters in LOTR is exactly how white women should be protrayed, brave an honorable. This is not to be confused with them being feminists.

Don't buy the regular version DVD's, get the extended ones. The extra material was not stuff they just wanted to get rid of, but needed to cut out to make the movies watchable in one theatre sitting. Trust me they add a lot to the storyline. Look forward to the "Return of the King" extended version in November.

[QUOTE=Auschwitz ...and the hobbits (which are half-breeds) are the heroes of the story.[/QUOTE]

I think the Hobbits are called "Halflings", not halfbreeds. As I understand it, the name refers to the fact that they are about half the size of Men.

Compare the term to the archaic word, "Foundlings", which (I think) was a term applied to babies found abandoned in the woods. I think there was also another term for babies substituted for other babies and placed in cribs for the mother to raise.

In the feminist jewed movie version this is a correct statement. There were even jews in the cast! (Orlando Bloom!)



Having a Jew in the cast of a movie is not always relevant. Bloom was cast as a white elf. He was even "nordicized" with a blonde wig and blue contacts.

All the teany-bopper white girls going bonkers over the Legolas character are not drooling over a Jew, but a Scandinavian-type.

I think the Hobbits are called "Halflings", not halfbreeds. As I understand it, the name refers to the fact that they are about half the size of Men.

Compare the term to the archaic word, "Foundlings", which (I think) was a term applied to babies found abandoned in the woods. I think there was also another term for babies substituted for other babies and placed in cribs for the mother to raise.

The switched babies were known as changelings. There was a scene in The Untouchables (Godfather?) where some bad guys go into a nursery full of Italian American babies and they switch around like 40 infants randomly. And none of the kids had any plastic ID wrist bands. Pretty amusing.

I think Kate Blanchette might be jewish too. Even so, the vast, vast majority of WN's have nothing but praise for LOTR's.

http://www.vnnforum.com/main/movie75.htm

Note the use of the adjectives "Occidental Caucasians", that would denote that they are similar/ the same as other Occidental Causasoid groups such as "Scandinavians, Dutch and Germans".

Genetically speaking, the majority of the inhabitants of the British Isles are quite different from Scandinavians(excepting the Danes, who are more similar to the English) or even the Germans. From a genetical point of view, the people of the British Isles have more in common with France, Spain and Belgium than Scandinavia(excepting the Danes.) In other words, Britons are more genetically similar to South/Central Western Europeans than Northern Europeans.

http://baz.perlmonk.org/haplogroups.jpg

I'm also about half way through The Two Towers. The trilogy is a fun read, the kind of read one savors page by page. I'm not a LOTR freak but I'll try and make some points relating to the LOTR's various themes and the messages I read in the books.

The LOTR can be seen as racialist works for a lot of reasons. I don't think that Tolkien was much of a racist. He is reported as saying that whatever he's trying to say in TLOTR is pretty much up to the individual reader to interpret. I read this sentiment as a white man disclaiming the racial nature of his work so as to avoid unwanted attention.

First, LOTR appeals almost solely to white readers. It is very much a work that the coloreds, that is the ones that can read such a long and complex book, will avoid. What appeal does the work have to non-whites? None. That says a lot. What nigger/gook/spic wants to read (or can) a fantasy novel of a thousand plus pages all about mythical white heroes?

The work is dominated by strong white male personas. And so it is mostly unappealing to girls. There is absolutely nothing misogynistic about LOTR, in fact women are vaunted and idolized, but let's face it, women don't want to read about a bunch of white guys on an epic quest. All the central characters are strong, honorable, decent white men. They are, in a word, the role-models that white men should strive to be.

Tolkien lived during a time of immense change in England. He saw his pastoral, simple, small-town life change to one of industry, greed, and environmental destruction. He also witnessed WWI, the first truly mechanized war and a nightmarish one at that. In the movies the orcs are often seen on screen and they are always hammering away in their forges and factories. Many people see LORT as more of a commentary on industrialization than as one on race.

The men of the West are besieged by a dark horde from the south and the east. Where do the real life immigrants into Europe and America (the West) come from? The middle east, Asia, Africa, ie the south and the eastern portions of the globe.

The humans, elves, and hobbits are constantly in danger of being overrun by the endless numbers of the enemy. White man is vastly outnumbered by the non-white horde. The books feature fair lands of green meadows and huge forests-white lands as opposed to the deserts and jungles of the third world.

I read once that Tolkien used the dwarves as an allegory for jews. They are reclusive, clannish, mistrusting, and concerned mostly with hording wealth in their mountain strongholds. Could be accurate.

The good guys represent light, white, and bright. They are also the far superior fighter and warrior, vanquishing numerically superior foes with ease and expertise. The bad guys are Black Riders, Dark Sauron on his throne brooding, Uruk-Hai born of mud in darkness. The eternal dichotomy of light vs. darkness.

The One Ring itself to me represents addiction. It could be money, women, drink, power, magic, anything and everything. It is the essence of dependence, or man's proclivity to become fixated on something to the point that his whole being is corrupted by that fixation. This then serves to distort and twist him to the point that he becomes a slave to the evil that always lurks in him.

Gollum is a central character in the book. I believe he represents what man can fall too if he gives himself over to his own lusts and passions. He represents the lack of self-control and self-discipline. He is what becomes of a white man who is manipulated by the forces that seek to destroy him. Depraved, insane, tragic, and foolish, Gollum is both the comedy and the emotion of the works.

LOTR came from a different time and place where whites had yet to be introduced to the wonders of diversity in their own nations. It is a warning to the dangers of unlimited industry, immigration, and hedonism, among other things. The good news is the white minority of warriors and fighters win in the end because a tiny insignificant like Frodo is forced to part with the thing he craves. It is a story of the white man being forced (Gollum bites off Frodo's finger to regain the ring) to part with his vice and his addiction to save his world and the world of his people from the murderous dark horde of mud beings invading and destroying everything that is good.

Great post! But where did you hear about the dwarves being an allegory for jewz? Just curious. And damnit, Ironworker, you're comparing apples and oranges. I fell for the "nordicized" Bloom as Legolas. I was watching some special on the movie (might have been one of the documentaries accompanying the dvd), and I saw Bloom on there (without the blonde hair and blue eyes) and didn't recognise him--I seriously thought it was that guy from "Dawson's Creek" in the movies. Couldn't believe it was Bloom. Meanwhile, I don't care what you do to a nigger, they are still going to be non-white. Lil-kim just looks freakish, as does Michael Jackson. But those jews can portray a believable white.

"Stand, Men of the West! Stand and wait! This is the hour of doom." --From Return of the King

When I heard that in the movie, it sent shivers down my spine. I couldn't believe something like that would be allowed in a movie nowadays. I just knew the niggers and jews would be whining. Does it get anymore obvious? The whole "men of the west" expression is used several times in the books. And just who are so-called men of the west?

It does make me suspicious how the movies can be so successful in this day and age. Definitely SOME jews must be involved and making some shekels from us goyim.

Anyone remember that LOTR-style essay on VNN a couple months ago? LOL! Something about a multicultural Middle-Earth. That was great. Read that and contrast it with the books--while not overtly racist, it's still WHITE literature and great reading.

iron worker is right, the female characters are important but not that important. for example, arwen is played up in the movie for the usual hollywood reasons. in the series she is symbolicly important because she repeats the "hybridization" between beren a man and Luthien an elf, that gave birth to elrond half elven and elros, father of the numenorean race. thus, the hybridization of arwen to the heir of isulder the numenorean, aragorn, marks the end of the third age just as the other marked the end of the first and beginnign of the second.

but that is a symbolic point, arwen appears onscreen for more time then she does in the books. ditto that Theoden's daughter. Eowyn? Another important character, and a little played up in the movie too: but I think they did well by playing her up. She adds to the racial feeling you get in the movie from the Rohanians. She plays the part of sister daughter and possible mate all very well. She is a human girl worth fighting and dying for. Her dramatic role in the leadup to the Battle of Helms deep was outstanding.

the discussion here about racist vs mythic interpretations is revealing. tolkein lived in an england with few aliens other than the perpetual jews. so his experience of life and "race" is very different from ours.

face it friends, we live in a unique time, when our homelands have been over-run, and our national identities delegitimatized by the cunning jews who have never been so powerful as now. all our previous social categories from nation to family to faith to folk have been warped as a consequence, and we are left in the detritus with few things to hold onto, apart from race. some folks especially conservative and Christian types are uncomfortable with this even though they see it and sense it and share in it to some extent. if they are honest they will learn.

And apart from that we also have a thirst for revenge and a desire for survival. Hang together and believe that we have a right to live and we will prevail.

I think the Hobbits are called "Halflings", not halfbreeds. As I understand it, the name refers to the fact that they are about half the size of Men.

Compare the term to the archaic word, "Foundlings", which (I think) was a term applied to babies found abandoned in the woods. I think there was also another term for babies substituted for other babies and placed in cribs for the mother to raise.
That explains it. I thought different because usually when the word "halfling" is used in fantasy it refers to half-breedism.

I didn't call you dumb. I said that your comment was dumb. Females rate the LOTR movies slightly higher than men do (9.0 average versus 8.8 for men; with females under 18 giving it the highest rating of any demographic group at 9.1):

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120737/ratings


It's not just my opinion. It's a fact. If women didn't like fantasy they wouldn't spend money on it.
We're not talking about the movies, we're talking about the books dumbass.

Furthermore, I wont deny that many women enjoy reading and watching fantasy, but I believe the majority of fantasy-fans goes to the male population. Lets face it: Most women would rather buy romance novels and watch soaps than fantasy.

What makes LOTR's unique is that it is an epic motion picture almost conpletely void of Jewish influence. This was possible because Peter Jackson made the movie in remote New Zealand, and filmed all episodes simultaneously. If Hollywood had their say the probably would have made the elves black, and it would have been a box-office flop, like Matrix Revultions.

The women characters in LOTR is exactly how white women should be protrayed, brave an honorable. This is not to be confused with them being feminists.

Don't buy the regular version DVD's, get the extended ones. The extra material was not stuff they just wanted to get rid of, but needed to cut out to make the movies watchable in one theatre sitting. Trust me they add a lot to the storyline. Look forward to the "Return of the King" extended version in November.
I dont think they deliberately kept non-whites out of the movies; especially since jews produced them! The real excuse is probably because they did most of their extras casting in new zealand.

If I recall correctly, Tolkien had few kind words for Hitler, correct?




...
We all make mistakes :D

"He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom."
-Gandalf

"Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger."
-Gildor Inglorion

Last of all Hurin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed; and it is sung that the axe smoked in the black blood of the troll-guard of Gothmog until it withered, and each time that he slew Hurin cried 'Aure entuluva! Day shall come again!' Seventy times he uttered that cry; but they took him at last alive..."
-J.R.R. Tolkien, The Silmarillion

"She should not die, so young and beautiful. At least, she should not die alone."
-Merry, on the Pelennor Fields

"Don't you know my name yet? That's the only answer. Tell me, who are you alone, yourself and nameless? But you are young and I am old. Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside."
-Tom Bombadil

"Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens."
-Gimli

"He should not vow to walk in the dark, who has not seen the nightfall."
-Elrond

"It's wisdom to recognize necessity, when all other courses have been weighed, though as folly it may appear to those who cling to false hope."
-Elrond

"It must often be so, Sam, when things are in danger: someone has to give them up, lose them, so that others may keep them."
-Frodo

"Dangerous!" cried Gandalf. "And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord."
-Gandalf

"It needs more to make a king than a piece of elvish glass, or a rabble such as this."
-the Mouth of Sauron

"I am glad you are here with me, Sam. Here at the end of all things, Sam."
-Frodo, on Mount Doom

The Nazgul they were; the Ringwraiths, the Enemy's most terribly servants; darkness went with them and they cried with the voices of death"
-J.R.R. Tolkien, Silmarillion

"A thing is about to happen which has not happened since the Elder Days: the Ents are going to wake up and find that they are strong."
-Gandalf

"Few can foresee whither their road will lead them, till they come to its end."
-Legolas

"Confusticate and bebother these dwarves..."
-Bilbo Baggins

"Behold, I am not Gandalf the Grey, whom you betrayed. I am Gandalf the White, who has returned from death. You have no colour now, and I cast you from the order and from the Council."
-Gandalf

"I will take the ring, though I do not know the way."
-Frodo

"The treacherous are ever distrustful."
-Gandalf

"'Hail, Gurtholfin, wand of death, for thou art all men's bane and all men's lives fain wouldst thou drink, knowing no lord or faith save the hand that wields thee if it be strong. Thee only have I now - slay me therefore and be swift, for life is a curse, and all my days are creeping foul, and all my deeds are vile and all I love is dead.' And Gurtholfin said: 'That will I gladly do, for blood is blood, and perchance thine is not less sweet than many a one's that thou hast given me ere now'; and Turambar cast himself then upon the point of Gurtholfin, and the dark blade took his life."
-Turin Turumbar

"Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends. I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies, but there is a chance of it. And he is bound up with the fate of the Ring. My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end; and when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many - yours not least."
-Gandalf

"To me! To me! Up Eorlingas, fear no darkness!"
-King Theoden

"Sleep! I feel the need of it. Yet my axe is restless in my hand. Give me a row of orc-necks and room to swing and all weariness will fall from me!"
-Gimli

"The wise speak only of what they know, Grima son of Galmod. A witless worm have you become. Therefore be silent, and keep your forked tongue behind your teeth. I have not passed through fire and death to bandy crooked words with a serving-man till the lightning falls."
-Gandalf

"Then suddenly out of the gloom came a sharp hiss. 'What has it got in its pocketses?'"
-Gollum

"And it is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world."
-Gandalf

"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."
-Bilbo Baggins

"This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise from their quiet fields to shake the towers and the counsels of the Great."
-Elrond

"They lie in all the pools, pale faces, deep deep under the dark water. I saw them: grim faces and evil, and noble faces and sad. Many faces proud and fair, and weeds in their silver hair. But all foul, all rotting, all dead. A fell light is in them."
-Frodo

"And he sang to them, now in the Elven tongue, now in the speech of the West, until their hearts, wounded with sweet words, overflowed, and their joy was like swords, and they passed in thought out to regions where pain and delight flow together and tears are the very wine of blessedness."
-J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the KIng

"Then let us start as soon as it is light tomorrow, if we can. The wolf that one hears is worse than the orc that one fears."
-Boromir

"What do you mean? Do you wish me a good morning, or mean that it is a good morning whether I want it or not; or that you feel good on this morning; or that it is a morning to be good on?"
-Gandalf

"I have no help to send, therefore I must go myself."
-Aragorn

"The one had leaves of dark green that beneath were as shining silver, and from each of his countless flowers a dew of silver light was ever falling, and the earth beneath was dappled with the shadows of his fluttering leaves."
-J.R.R. Tolkien, The Silmarillion

"Hill. Yes, that was it. But it is a hasty word for a thing that has stood here ever since this part of the world was shaped."
-Treebeard

"It's sunlight and bright day, right enough. I thought that Elves were all for moon and stars: but this is more elvish than anything I ever heard tell of. I feel as if I was inside a song, if you take my meaning."
-Sam

"Loud and clear it sounds in the valleys of the hills. Then let the foes of Gondor flee!"
-Boromir

"We have sworn, and not lightly. This oath we will keep. We are threatened with many evils, and treason not least; but one thing is not said: that we shall suffer from cowardice, from cravens or the fear of cravens. Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda."
-Feanor

"Of Course", said Gandalf. "And why should not they prove true? Surely you do not disbelieve the prophecies, because you had a hand in bringing them about yourself? You don't really suppose, do you, that all your adventures and escapes were managed by mere luck, just for your sole benefit? You are a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I am very fond of you; but you are only quite a little fellow in a wide world after all!"
-Gandalf

Jews are not one race in the books, but traitors like that adviser in Rohan.

The Orcs (stupid but strong, ugly, to be exterminated) are niggers.

Genetically speaking, the majority of the inhabitants of the British Isles are quite different from Scandinavians(excepting the Danes, who are more similar to the English) or even the Germans. From a genetical point of view, the people of the British Isles have more in common with France, Spain and Belgium than Scandinavia(excepting the Danes.) In other words, Britons are more genetically similar to South/Central Western Europeans than Northern Europeans.

http://baz.perlmonk.org/haplogroups.jpg

This wins the contest for the most confusing chart in VNN History... :eek:

This wins the contest for the most confusing chart in VNN History... :eek:

There's nothing confusing about it. Even if you are not acquainted with what haplogroups the different colors represent, it's easy to see what populations have similar genetic makeups just by comparing them.

[self-promotion]
Unfortunately, even a great place such as Middle Earth can be multicriminalized! Read these articles (http://www.vnnforum.com/main/2004b/41804haernemiddleearth.htm) from Middle Earth's future.
[/self-promotion]

Seriously though, I agree that it's a very racialist story. As for the elves and dwarves: elves are the perfect Aryans, and I don't think the dwarves are Jews, they are too honorable. More like they don't represent any particular race, they're just dwarves. Remember that elves, dwarves and orcs all come from Nordic mythology (the giants are orcs, live in the hotter climates in the south and are dumb, dirty and ugly). Tolkien studied Nordic languages. When you read his novel Silmarillion, which explains the world before LOTR, you see it's full of references to Asatro: for example, the main god is the king of the gods, and he is called Allfather, and he has a throne from which he can see the whole world; same as Oden.

Dwarves in Asatro are gold-loving creatures, proud and prickly, and they make great weapons; it was three dwarvish brothers who made Mjölner and Oden's spear that always hits its target. They don't represent anything special.

The Hobbits as has been pointed out live in an idyllic British countryside. They don't have a king and simply live in accordance with nature in their confederation of four regions. There appears to be some Ludditism here in that when Saruman arrives with the Orcs to enslave them they start building a dam, and the dam is destroyed in the rebellion.

The men are kings and other movers and shakers, as it has always been, and Tolkien saw no reason to change that into some weird fake message of women being the same as men. Why should he? I'm surprised women even came up to discussion in this thread.

I recommend Silmarillion, as it spans over centuries from when elves lived in a Western continent with the gods, to when they invade Middle Earth and take it from the Orcs (yes, the Orcs were there first, created by the evil god who Sauron serves), through endless wars up until the point when they can finally be defeated once and for all. Reading through that book the part where Hobbits go hiking to destroy Sauron with a ring it feels like a terribly bad way of ending the majestic wars, a deus ex machina.

(I've never thought the rings really represent anything other than a way for Tolkien to make sure that small creatures like the Hobbits can kill big nasty Sauron to make a good story.)

Interestingly, a continent rises in the waters to the west of Middle Earth in Silmarillion, a continent to which elves move. Their knowledge becomes superior to the Middle Earthen elves, and they help them out, only to become more and more tyrannic. There's a sentence in Silmarillion that goes something like: "First they came as brothers, then as advisers, and finally as conquerors."

To this western continent travels Sauron in his most handsome shape, and he makes himself the leader of the island. But because of his tyranny and dark magic the island sinks into the ocean, and his handsome shape is destroyed so he only looks hideous from then on. Now that I think about it, perhaps this western continent is supposed to be the United States or Britain, pestering Europe and finally destroying itself. It doesn't seem far-fetched, though you'd have to ask Tolkien to be sure, I suppose.

Oh yeah, the Silmarillions are the three most beautiful gems ever created, made by an elven king who is killed, and his sons fight endless wars to get them back when they have been lost. They are the ones who lead the invasion of Middle Earth, and they become far too despotic in time. To run away from the continent of the gods in the far west they kill sea elves in the harbor and take their ships, a fratricide for which they are forever cursed, which causes much grief. In the end the last Silmarillion is thrown into the sea by the last surviving brother; he regrets their bad behavior and doesn't want the treasure anymore. From then on the Silmarillion lights up the waves, and because of his sacrifice the weight of the fratricide is finally lifted from the Middle Earth elves' shoulders.

nice account of the Silmarillion Fredrik.

about the rings, dont you see a similarity to Wagner's Ring of the Niebelungen? To me Tolkein did something like what Wagner did, use Germanic mythic antecedents and his own incredible imagination to create a contemporary masterpiece on a grand scale.

Anybody who loves the LOTR would enjoy Wagner.

Jews are not one race in the books, but traitors like that adviser in Rohan.

The Orcs (stupid but strong, ugly, to be exterminated) are niggers.
Grima Wormtongue.

I think Saruman basically represents the treacherous jew who uses technology and a horde of orcs (niggers) to do his bidding.

The Ents, to me, represent the lemming whites who have been asleep for ages and have let saruman fuck up their forest; but eventually they saw the light and kicked his ass!

Yes,Grima Wormtongue. Thanks for that, I had forgotten his name.

Grima Wormtongue, Saruman, and Sauron all represent different kinds of jews.

Sauron was the king jew. He had no physical form but was able to pull all the strings.

http://home.comcast.net/~jk121764/tv.jpg

True. But women have been queens and regents and other movers and shakers, as well. To ignore this is to ignore history/reality.

Nobody said he did, or should. Women came up when Bragi claimed that only men like fantasy. I pointed out that his notion is ridiculous, since (for starters) women rate LOTR slightly higher than men do!

Yeah, there were 67 girls and 11,498 men who answered the poll. The girls didn't know what was going on so they were like "Lord of the what? Oh yeah, that dragon movie my boyfriend made me go see with him, it was great even though I fell asleep and can't remember what happened".

To make a long story short, the 67 girls rated it slightly higher than the men.

As usual Braggard is talking out of his rectum. The poll was answered by 17022 women, not 67. The latter number was clearly extricated by Bragi out of his own ass.

Clearly, many women do like LOTR.

Get a life, Bragi.

Ah come on sweet cheeks, can't ya' take a little joking around?

Don't be stuck up.

Yoda --- Gollum (greenish, pointy-eared, raggedy midget with a speech impediment)

Obi-Wan and Luke's lightsabers glow blue. Darth's lightsaber glows red. --- Gandalf and Bilbo's magic swords glow blue. The Balrog's magic sword flames red.

Obi-Wan Kenobi --- Gandalf

Princess Leia --- Galadriel

Darth Vader --- Saruman, the Black Riders

Emperor Palpatine --- Sauron

Obi-Wan digs Anakin's lightsaber out of an old wooden box, gives to Luke --- Bilbo digs his magic sword out of an old wooden box, gives to Frodo

Darth cuts off Luke's hand, which plunges into the abyss with Luke's lightsabre --- Gollum bites off Frodo's finger, which plunges into the abyss with the One Ring

Yoda foretells the future, and Luke must decide whether to help his friends or not. Yoda warns that he's seen only one possible future --- Galadriel foretells the future, and Sam must decide whether to help his friends or not. Galadriel warns that she's seen only one possible future.

Darth tries to convince Luke to join the dark side, thereby bringing order to the galaxy --- Saruman tries to convince Gandalf to join the evil wizards, thereby bringing order to Middle Earth

Mysterious figure throws back hood of robe to reveal that he's Obi-Wan --- Mysterious figure throws back hood of robe to reveal that he's Gandalf

Luke: "I shouldn't have come, I'm endangering the mission." (Because Darth can sense him) --- Glorfindel: "It is you, Frodo, and that which you bear that brings us into peril." (Because Sauron can sense the One Ring)

Luke watches from across a chasm as his mentor Obi-Wan duels with Darth Vader using blue and red lightsabers --- Frodo watches from across a chasm as his mentor Gandalf duels with a Balrog using blue and red flaming magic swords

Heroes are walking through a forest when they're suprised by ewoks, captured at spear-point, then taken to a village in the trees --- Heroes are walking through a forest when they're suprised by elves, captured at arrow-point, then taken to a village in the trees

more here: http://www.jitterbug.com/origins/lotr.html

"Changelings", yes, that's the word. Thanks.

The switched babies were known as changelings. There was a scene in The Untouchables (Godfather?) where some bad guys go into a nursery full of Italian American babies and they switch around like 40 infants randomly. And none of the kids had any plastic ID wrist bands. Pretty amusing.

Don't recall that scene. But it would be funny, (in principle.) :D

I loved the books, the movies were great, but not THAT great. Too much was edited out so it could be sold as an extended version DVD for 40.00

http://membres.lycos.fr/gorthaur/film/sauron.jpg

Sauron had a body. The Witch-King lost it though, I think because he lost that ring. Havent read them in a few years.

I see how one could easily read a glorious racial struggle into the movie, but I think some are too quick to hop onto anything with even the slightest possibility of telling the jew to fuck off.

Wheres Legolass88 when you need him anyway? I noticed he popped up again shortly after Diablo was banned.

I loved the books, the movies were great, but not THAT great. Too much was edited out so it could be sold as an extended version DVD for 40.00

http://membres.lycos.fr/gorthaur/film/sauron.jpg

Sauron had a body. The Witch-King lost it though, I think because he lost that ring. Havent read them in a few years.

I see how one could easily read a glorious racial struggle into the movie, but I think some are too quick to hop onto anything with even the slightest possibility of telling the jew to fuck off.

Wheres Legolass88 when you need him anyway? I noticed he popped up again shortly after Diablo was banned.

Fighting for the True North?

As a fervent Catholic, a veteran of the Somme, and a genuine scholar of Nordic cultures, Tolkien was not blind to these events. In 1938, Tolkien denounced the Nazis’ "wholly pernicious and unscientific race-doctrine." When German publishers Rütten and Loening wished to translate The Hobbit from English, they wrote him, inquiring whether his name was of "Aryan" origin. Tolkien’s reply dripped scorn:

I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is, Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people.

As he would write his son, Michael, in 1941 (then a cadet training for the British army):

...I have in this War a burning private grudge—which would probably make me a better soldier at 49 than I was at 22: against that ruddy little ignoramus Adolf Hitler... Ruining, perverting, misapplying, and making for ever accursed, that noble, northern spirit, a supreme contribution to Europe, which I have ever loved, and tried to present in its true light. Nowhere, incidentally, was it nobler than in England, nor ever more early sanctified and Christianized.

And I suppose that Winston Churchill and British Capitalism symbolized the "true" North???? :confused:

Fighting for the True North?

As a fervent Catholic, a veteran of the Somme, and a genuine scholar of Nordic cultures, Tolkien was not blind to these events. In 1938, Tolkien denounced the Nazis’ "wholly pernicious and unscientific race-doctrine." When German publishers Rütten and Loening wished to translate The Hobbit from English, they wrote him, inquiring whether his name was of "Aryan" origin. Tolkien’s reply dripped scorn:

I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is, Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people.

As he would write his son, Michael, in 1941 (then a cadet training for the British army):

...I have in this War a burning private grudge—which would probably make me a better soldier at 49 than I was at 22: against that ruddy little ignoramus Adolf Hitler... Ruining, perverting, misapplying, and making for ever accursed, that noble, northern spirit, a supreme contribution to Europe, which I have ever loved, and tried to present in its true light. Nowhere, incidentally, was it nobler than in England, nor ever more early sanctified and Christianized.

And I suppose that Winston Churchill and British Capitalism symbolized the "true" North???? :confused:


I suppose that settles it nicely than!

Theyre just a good read folks, nothing deeper to see here, move along.

Seriously, thanks for posting that OR, LOTR dorks are as annoying as costume fetish dorks who are as annoying as trekkies.

I loved the books, the movies were great, but not THAT great. Too much was edited out so it could be sold as an extended version DVD for 40.00
Indeed!

Christopher Lee protested the cutting of his scenes from Return of the King by not attending the premiere. I read about this before I saw it. When I saw the movie later I saw that there were a lot of unnecessary scenes they could've snipped instead of Lee's (like that long ass ending). The only reason why they cut out Lee's scenes, as well as other important scenes, was--as you said--so they could market the extended edition for $40.00.

The switched babies were known as changelings. There was a scene in The Untouchables (Godfather?) where some bad guys go into a nursery full of Italian American babies and they switch around like 40 infants randomly. And none of the kids had any plastic ID wrist bands. Pretty amusing.

That was Once Upon a Time in America...and I must confess I have a hard time seeing the hilarity in a bunch of criminal jews (is that a tautology?) switching White babies about.

About Orlando Bloom: have VNNF reached some sort of consensus as to the nature his ethnic affiliation? It has been said that that jewish civil rights activist (or whatever the hell he was) was not his father after all, but I've heard suspicious grumblings from some (I got doubts my own self - he looks somewhat...uhh...strange). Do we have a verdict?

That a man is fooled by propaganda and hates Hitler doesn't mean he can't be a racialist. And pretty much everybody living in those days were what today would be called racists. I remember reading a French article from the fifties which told of niggers running amok in Paris: it described them as having violence in their blood. That was in France, in the fifties, written by a journalist who there is almost no chance was a nazist, but he sure was racist all the same.

Come to think of fantasy LARP (Live-Action Roleplaying): go to any such event and you'll find girls there, yes, but the guys will be at least twice as many. That is of course because fantasy is about a magical medieval European world and about wars, both of which are topics guys enjoy more. (Doesn't even need explanation)

Now, when you look at a website for a LARP that is soon to be played, there will be certain occupations advertised there: they want so and so many warriors, scribes, peasants and so on. For the guys, the occupation that fills up immediately is warriors. Guys love to be warriors. For the girls, the occupation that fills up immediately is -- harlot. Of course, it's an environment where a girl has the perfect excuse to play the role of a slut and whore, so they'll jump at the opportunity. Just thought it fun to mention.

Sorry for going a bit off topic, but, Fredrik, isn't Ser Gregor a gem? I sooo hope he'll pull through. Same goes for the Hound.

That was Once Upon a Time in America...and I must confess I have a hard time seeing the hilarity in a bunch of criminal jews (is that a tautology?) switching White babies about.

About Orlando Bloom: have VNNF reached some sort of consensus as to the nature his ethnic affiliation? It has been said that that jewish civil rights activist (or whatever the hell he was) was not his father after all, but I've heard suspicious grumblings from some (I got doubts my own self - he looks somewhat...uhh...strange). Do we have a verdict?

Ah yes, that jewish production featuring the half jew white looking Jennifer Connelly.

I hardly impled hilarity. That is a bit stong a word. I said 'pretty amusing' and if you knew me better you'd know that 'pretty amusing' is a sort of cryptic sarcasm.

Orlando has been claimed by the jews. Head over to Jewhoo.com and Orlando "a red sun rises, blood has been spilt on this night" Bloom-feld has a huge write up where the handsome-because-of-his-Aryan-half Bloom identifies himself as a member of the tribe. Ask the jew, he's the final authority on who is or isn't his.

That was Once Upon a Time in America...and I must confess I have a hard time seeing the hilarity in a bunch of criminal jews (is that a tautology?) switching White babies about.

About Orlando Bloom: have VNNF reached some sort of consensus as to the nature his ethnic affiliation? It has been said that that jewish civil rights activist (or whatever the hell he was) was not his father after all, but I've heard suspicious grumblings from some (I got doubts my own self - he looks somewhat...uhh...strange). Do we have a verdict?
He looks more like a spaniard than a jew.

Ah yes, that jewish production featuring the half jew white looking Jennifer Connelly.

I hardly impled hilarity. That is a bit stong a word. I said 'pretty amusing' and if you knew me better you'd know that 'pretty amusing' is a sort of cryptic sarcasm.



Yes, that was overly prickly of me, wasn't it?


He looks more like a spaniard than a jew.

...must...keep...facetious...remark...to...myself.......must...not...incite...intraracial...hatred...

Tolkein, favored Nordic language. He was a linguist. Most of his themes, are nordic and European in nature. Very few if any blacks. As for the mixing of humans and elves. He simply did that to give his niece something to read. As far as he was concerned. He would have had no women, in his stories :D They were action stories originaly written to showcase his grasp of Nordic languages.

Sorry for going a bit off topic, but, Fredrik, isn't Ser Gregor a gem? I sooo hope he'll pull through. Same goes for the Hound.

Yay, someone who recognizes where my signature comes from! "All men must die."

Hmm, isn't it Ser Gregor Clegane who is the Hound? In that case that would be a trick question! Or is he The Mountain That Rides?

No, The Mountain must die! He's bad to the bone. The Hound may still have his uses though. He's rough and a bastard, but you can't help feel sorry for him, and besides, he hasn't really done much bad except serving his liege, which he didn't even like.

I'm only halfway through the third novel, I've gotten to the point where the Hound has duelled with Ser Beric who then comes to life again, and where Jon Snow has fled from the Wildlings. "You know nothing Jon Snow!" -- who wouldn't run away with a girlfriend who has that for a catchphrase? She oughtta get a spanking.

And Arya is still running around south of the riverlands, seems like she'll never get to her destination for as long as she lives. And the southerners have arrived at King's Landing, so I'm hoping for some feuding with lots of bloodletting. In the end the only Lannister I want to see still alive is Tyrion, the rest can go to hell and take the fool Stannis with them. Not a single leader in the whole series who is worthy to take the Iron Throne, except for Robb Stark, but he only wants the north. Right now everything is just getting darker and darker, with Daenerys gathering her forces in the east even, but it has to get brighter soon, I hope.

And by "the third novel" you mean the third actual book, or the third part of the series (which they had to publish as two separate volumes due to its "length" (an alternative interpretation is that they were just plain greedy))?

What are you two talking about? :confused:

(By the way, I think the main hobbit who plays Frodo is also a jew.)