From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 1 12:45:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA07622; Mon, 1 May 2000 12:44:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 12:44:29 -0700 Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 15:40:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Jim Uban Message-Id: <200005011940.PAA25050@world.std.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Greg Watson's e-mail update & SMOT refunds Cc: uban@world.std.com, gowatson@ozemail.com.au, gowatson@hotmail.com Resent-Message-ID: <"aqcmW3.0.qs1.RwT3v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14898 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Freenrg-bees & Vorts, Unfortunately, Greg Watson seems to have gone incommunicado again. At least, as far as responding on my request for SMOT refunds. After he gave (at least) two refunds (Stefan & Nick), I went ahead and sent him the info for refunding my SMOTs purchase. Greg responded that he would get the funds out ASAP, but now he has gone silent. I last heard from him on Apr 15. And that was from the now reported discontinued email address of "gowatson@ozemail.com.au". My followup emails were to both his addreses, but with no reply. Hopefully, Greg will continue to follow through with refunds to requestors. But, if there is no reply from him soon, I'm afraid this sort of delay and diversion simply raises my suspicions once again. Two years of this has worn down my patience. Jim > On Sat, 29 Apr 2000, Michael Randall wrote: > Subject: Greg Watson's e-mail update > > Hi All, > > Gregory Watson gowatson@hotmail.com asked to tell he me to tell others (SMOT > purchasers) that he is not using the gowatson@ozemail.com.au email address > anymore. > > Regards, Michael From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 1 18:42:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA15018; Mon, 1 May 2000 18:42:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 18:42:18 -0700 X-Originating-IP: 213.6.16.18 X-URL: http://www.mail2web.com/ Subject: WaterCar ! Pictures and test report ! Sender: "harti@harti.com" From: "harti@harti.com" Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 21:41:48 -0400 To: "jlnlabs@egroups.com" CC: "ou-builders@egroups.com" , "freenrg-l@eskimo.com" , "newman-l@emachine.com" Reply-To: harti@harti.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Mailer: JMail 3.7.0 by Dimac (www.dimac.net) Message-Id: <200005012141948.SM00283@m2w012.mail2web.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from Quoted-Printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA15000 Resent-Message-ID: <"aEbPp2.0.Zg3.v9Z3v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14899 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: An inventor from the Philipines has built a car that really runs only on water: Uses 40 Watts and 4 Liters of water for 500 Kilometers ! Sorry, just German text, but have a look at the pictures at the link down there ! Best regards, Stefan. Original Message: ----------------- From: Stefan Farwick farwics@uni-muenster.de Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 17:40:27 +0100 Subject: Wasserauto ================================= Das Wasserauto von Daniel Dingle ================================= Anfang 1999 wurde im deutschen Fernsehen in N3 das Wasserauto von Daniel Dingle, welches nur mit Wasser anstatt Benzin fahren soll, 3 Minuten in einem Beitrag gezeigt. Als mir mein Bekannter von dem Wasserauto erzählt hat, habe ich es anfänglich nicht geglaubt. Nachdem ich mir mehrfach eine Kopie des Filmes angeschaut hatte, wich meine Skepsis. Meinem untenstehenden Bekannten gab ich die Adresse von dem Erfinder Daniel Dingle mit auf seine Reise zu den Philippinen. Reisebericht von meinem Bekannten Wolfgang Czapp: Im Dezember 1999 bis April 2000 lebte ich auf den Philippinen. Im Januar 2000 besuchte ich Daniel Dingle in Manila im Industrial Technology Development Institute. Es empfing mich Ernesto S. Luis, PhD. Er organisierte das Treffen mit Daniel Dingle, der dann mit seinem Wasserauto vorfuhr. Es war ein 1.6i Toyota Corolla. Das Wasserauto benötigt kein Benzin, sondern fährt mit Wasser. Es benötigt rund 4 Liter Wasser auf 500 km. Wasser wird in Wasserstoff und Sauerstoff mit einer Spannung zerlegt, die Daniel Dingle nicht genau angeben wollte. Dieses Wasserstoff-Sauerstoffgemisch wird dem Motor zugeführt. Daniel Dingle sagte, dass das System 3 Ampere bei 12 Volt aus der Autobatterie und der Lichtmaschine aufnimmt. Dies entsprechen rund 40 Watt. Mit diesen 40 Watt kann das Auto eine Geschwindigkeit bis zu 200 km/h erreichen. Die Leerlaufdrehzahl beträgt 500 Upm. Ich roch auch an dem Auspuff. Das Abgas war geruchlos. Es kamen nur ein paar Wassertropfen heraus. Das Auto zusammen mit Herrn Dingle und Herrn Ernesto habe ich gefilmt. 4 Bilder zum Wasserauto kann man unter http://www.s-line.de/homepages/keppler/wasserauto.htm anschauen. Im Frühjahr ist das Wasserauto mehrmals im philippinischen Fernsehen gekommen. Laut einem philippinischen Fernsehbericht soll Anfang 2001 die Serienproduktion auf den Philippinien beginnen. Ich habe erfahren, dass auch viele große weltweite Firmen wie z.B. VW, der deutsche Tüv u.s.w. bei Dingle vorgesprochen haben. Eigene Anmerkung: Den NDR-Fernsehbericht habe ich auf Videocassette. Zusätzlich besteht Kontakt zum Kameramann, der ebenfalls die Funktionstüchtigkeit des Autos bestätigt. Bilden Sie sich Ihre eigene Meinung. Ich hoffe, es war von Interesse. Gruß Stefan Farwick ------------------------------------------------------------------- This message has been posted from Mail2Web http://www.mail2web.com/ Web Hosting for $9.95 per month! Visit: http://www.yourhosting.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 2 02:29:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA16079; Tue, 2 May 2000 02:28:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 02:28:41 -0700 Message-ID: <390E9FC4.A0499C0D@ens.ascom.ch> Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 11:28:36 +0200 From: Christian Korfmacher Organization: Ascom X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: de-CH,en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: "freenrg-l@eskimo.com" Subject: Re: WaterCar ! Pictures and test report ! References: <200005012141948.SM00283@m2w012.mail2web.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"DkMJK3.0.7x3.9_f3v"@mx1> To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14900 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hello all, If you do a short calculation you will find out that it is impossible to get enough energy out of 4 liters of water. Assume a car consuming 10 l of gasoline per 100km, this gives 50 l for 500km with an thermal energy content of roughly 1638 MJ. (Gasoline 42Mj/kg, density 0.78kg/l). To get the same energy in Hydrogen gas you need about 151 m^3. (Hydrogen 10.8MJ/m^3, density 0.0899kg/m^3) Unfortunately this amount of Hydrogen gas weighs about 13.6 kg. I think it is pretty hard to get 13kg of Hydrogen gas from 4kg of water !! I always prefer a quick estimate on such figures before I jump on the wagon. Regards, Christian Korfmacher "harti@harti.com" wrote: > > An inventor from the Philipines has built > a car that really runs only on water: > Uses 40 Watts and 4 Liters of water > for 500 Kilometers ! > > Sorry, just German text, > but have a look at the pictures > at the link down there ! > > Best regards, Stefan. > SNIPPED message From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 2 05:21:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA03378; Tue, 2 May 2000 05:21:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 05:21:07 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: WaterCar ! Pictures and test report ! Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 22:20:20 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <200005012141948.SM00283@m2w012.mail2web.com> <390E9FC4.A0499C0D@ens.ascom.ch> In-Reply-To: <390E9FC4.A0499C0D@ens.ascom.ch> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id FAA03337 Resent-Message-ID: <"PUKD8.0.hq.pWi3v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14901 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 02 May 2000 11:28:36 +0200, Christian Korfmacher wrote: [snip] >I think it is pretty hard to get 13kg of Hydrogen gas from 4kg of water >!! > >I always prefer a quick estimate on such figures before I jump on the >wagon. Here however you make the assumption that it is the normal chemical energy of water that you are dealing with. If that were the case, the car would only get around the corner before the battery ran flat. If true at all, then we must be looking at an unusual energy source. Mills' hydrinos comes to mind, as it could well yield 50 - 100 times the amount of energy one would get from normal combustion. For this to be true, one would need to ensure lots of free O and H atoms during the combustion process, and few or no molecules. O and H have very similar first ionisation energies, so O atoms may well be able to "cooperate" with H atoms in three particle collision hydrino formation reactions. This reaction is not normally seen because combustion usually takes place via a free radical process between molecules. If however the temperature during combustion can be kept high enough to ensure lots of atoms iso molecules, then the free radical process is avoided, and hydrino formation could make the running. Furthermore, UV released during hydrino formation could help to split more molecules into atoms resulting in a self-bootstrapping process. Perhaps the presence of some form of catalyst in the cylinder would also help to split the molecules (e.g. noble metals?) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 2 05:35:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA07069; Tue, 2 May 2000 05:35:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 05:35:16 -0700 From: "Phillip Brost" To: Subject: RE: WaterCar ! Pictures and test report ! Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 07:31:40 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"9Dn662.0.Mk1.4ki3v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14902 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Is there more information on this vehicle (preferably in English). Currently all I have seen are the pictures of the good doctor and pictures of his car. Not to be cynical, but I could post pictures of my car that runs on beer. :) If you have any other links to information they would be greatly appreciated. -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au] Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2000 7:20 AM To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: WaterCar ! Pictures and test report ! On Tue, 02 May 2000 11:28:36 +0200, Christian Korfmacher wrote: [snip] >I think it is pretty hard to get 13kg of Hydrogen gas from 4kg of water >!! > >I always prefer a quick estimate on such figures before I jump on the >wagon. Here however you make the assumption that it is the normal chemical energy of water that you are dealing with. If that were the case, the car would only get around the corner before the battery ran flat. If true at all, then we must be looking at an unusual energy source. Mills' hydrinos comes to mind, as it could well yield 50 - 100 times the amount of energy one would get from normal combustion. For this to be true, one would need to ensure lots of free O and H atoms during the combustion process, and few or no molecules. O and H have very similar first ionisation energies, so O atoms may well be able to "cooperate" with H atoms in three particle collision hydrino formation reactions. This reaction is not normally seen because combustion usually takes place via a free radical process between molecules. If however the temperature during combustion can be kept high enough to ensure lots of atoms iso molecules, then the free radical process is avoided, and hydrino formation could make the running. Furthermore, UV released during hydrino formation could help to split more molecules into atoms resulting in a self-bootstrapping process. Perhaps the presence of some form of catalyst in the cylinder would also help to split the molecules (e.g. noble metals?) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 2 06:02:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA17439; Tue, 2 May 2000 06:01:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 06:01:49 -0700 Message-ID: <390ED14F.C733C028@dove.net.au> Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 22:29:59 +0930 From: gsawyer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: harti@harti.com CC: "jlnlabs@egroups.com" , "ou-builders@egroups.com" , "freenrg-l@eskimo.com" , "newman-l@emachine.com" Subject: Re: WaterCar ! Pictures and test report ! References: <200005012141948.SM00283@m2w012.mail2web.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"45YaW3.0.OG4.z6j3v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14903 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Although it is in German, I saw enough to not detect any great depth of technical detail in the article, even the slower readers of English, would have picked up the thrust of the text, 500km range, 4 Ltrs of Water, 3 amps at 12 volts, 40 watts - HEY that is close to my level of current drain in my Hydro experiments ! :-) It will be interesting to see if they do actually go into production in 2001 though. Regards. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Glenville T. Sawyer Alternative Energy Experimenter: http://www.gsawyer.mtx.net Located at Kapunda, in South Australia's Historical Corridor. ------------------------------------------------------------------- To JOIN ENERGY 21 NEWSGROUP and MAILING LIST energy21-subscribe@listbot.com energy 21 website URL www.energy21.org Another Great South Australian Web-Site - From S.A's Riverland ------------------------------------------------------------------- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 2 14:03:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA13650; Tue, 2 May 2000 14:02:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 14:02:20 -0700 X-Originating-IP: 213.6.0.6 X-URL: http://www.mail2web.com/ Subject: Fw: Re: WaterCar ! babelfish translate Sender: "harti@harti.com" From: "harti@harti.com" Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 17:00:22 -0400 To: "jlnlabs@egroups.com" CC: "ou-builders@egroups.com" , "freenrg-l@eskimo.com" , "newman-l@emachine.com" Reply-To: harti@harti.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Mailer: JMail 3.7.0 by Dimac (www.dimac.net) Message-Id: <200005021700345.SM00272@libra.softcomca.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from Quoted-Printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA13597 Resent-Message-ID: <"3YuDV.0._K3.Q9q3v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14904 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Original Message: ----------------- From: William Beaty billb@eskimo.com Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 10:44:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: WaterCar ! babelfish translate Translated by http://babelfish.altavista.com The water auto of Daniel Dingle At the beginning of of 1999 became on the German television in N3 the water auto of Daniel Dingle, which is to drive only with water instead of gasoline, 3 minutes shown in a contribution. When my acquaintance told me of the water auto, I did not believe it initially. After I had looked at myself a copy of the film several times, my skepticism yielded. I gave the address of the inventor Daniel Dingle to my following acquaintance on its journey to the Philippines. Report on a journey of my acquaintance Wolfgang Czapp: In December 1999 until April 2000 I lived on the Philippines. In January 2000 I visited Daniel Dingle in Manila in the Industrial Technology development of institutes. It received me Ernesto S. Luis, PhD. it organized the meeting with Daniel Dingle, which moved forward then with its water auto. It was a 1.6i Toyota Corolla. The water auto needs no gasoline, but drives with water. It needs approximately 4 litres water on 500 km. Water is divided into hydrogen and oxygen with a voltage, which did not want to indicate Daniel Dingle exactly. This hydrogen oxygen mixture is supplied to the engine. Daniel Dingle said that the system takes up 3 ampere with 12 V from the car battery and the generator. This correspond approximately 40 Watt. With these 40 Watts the auto can achieve a rate up to 200 km/h. The idling speed amounts to 500 Upm. I smelled also at the exhaust. The exhaust gas was odorless. Came only a few water drops out. I filmed the auto as well as Mr. Dingle and Mr. Ernesto. one knows 4 pictures to the water auto under http://www.sline.de/homepages/keppler/wasserauto.htm look at. In the spring the water auto came several times in the Philippine television. According to a Philippine television report is start 2001 those Series production on the Philippinien begin. I experienced that also many large world-wide companies e.g. VW, which German Tuev etc. called on Dingle. Own note: I have the NDR Fernsehbericht on video cassette. Additionally contact exists to the cameraman, who likewise acknowledges the efficiency of the auto. Form your own opinion. I hope, it was from interest. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L ------------------------------------------------------------------- This message has been posted from Mail2Web http://www.mail2web.com/ Web Hosting for $9.95 per month! Visit: http://www.yourhosting.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 2 14:28:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA24097; Tue, 2 May 2000 14:27:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 14:27:48 -0700 From: UNIR2B1NM@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 17:27:09 EDT Subject: 200 MPG--Not a joke, a NECESSITY! To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com CC: jham@iahf.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5 for Windows sub 1 Resent-Message-ID: <"a31m71.0.Pu5.KXq3v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14905 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greetings-- The case for *trasitioning* to alternative energy, and HOW TO DO IT: As long as experiments are ongoing--and until alternatives are universally available and accepted--we'll still be *driving* and *buying gas*. Even the same people who are researching FE are simultaneously making the opposition richer...and yes, there *is* opposition (remember Tesla, Pogue, Edwin Gray, Tom Ogle, Meyer...). However, if we address first things first, FE efforts could be enhanced financially and sociologically. Indications are that any *existing* vehicle’s gas mileage could be increased up to 10X! Realizing this potential would set the stage for FE; in fact, it might be *prerequisite* for it (as I argue below). Ford Motors, Shell Oil, et al have documented efficiencies from 171 to 377 MPG (see erols.com/byronw); the key is a PURE VAPOR fuel intake system. Although engines are known to run on FUMES ONLY, conventional carburetors and fuel injectors WASTE fuel by spraying non-combustible, *liquid* gasoline into the cylinders. This alone causes pollution...but instead of allowing SANE fuel systems that would prevent it, they add catalytic converters to oxidize the fuel AFTER your engine has wasted it; thus, reducing emissions WITHOUT REDUCING GASOLINE SALES. That's right--the auto/oil/government oligopoly knowingly & needlessly PERPETRATES pollution, then uses it as a pretext for bulldozing private property rights via the so-called Environmental Protection Agency! Throughout the 1900's, some 2000 fuel saving patents--including 240 patented gasoline VAPORIZERS--have been barred from the market. This is easily understood, as the 'government' receives 70 cents for each gallon of gas sold, and the oil industry receives 50 billion annually for every cent of gas price increase. What, then, does this portend for radical energy alternatives, unless we first devote ourselves to creating a device that's so readily accessible and efficacious as to ignite a public movement that's *too big* to suppress?! I believe the entire public, including their conventional cars and fuel, can be enlisted in a snowballing energy revolution! The aforementioned innovators didn’t have the internet--we do! We’re setting up a web page at: . The email address is to be . Or, if you're interested in hands-on participation, please contact me as directed below. After perusing dozens of patents, I see opportunities for novel-yet-superior vaporization devices, both heat and ultrasonic, to be developed and shared IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN (rather than patented, sold, and *shelved*). Now that they're jerking us around again WRT fuel prices, the right device could start a pandemic of vehicle modifications. By also curtailing vehicular pollution, this would epose the environmental racket and disempower the EPA. Motivated and unified by self-interest, and galvanized by access to the right FUEL VAPORIZER, the People would collectively: * reduce their individual fuel expenses, * depress the PRICE of gasoline, * de-fund a chief revenue resource for big, regulatory ‘government’ * reduce the concentration of wealth into the oil industry, whose bosses manipulate markets, legislation, and WARS, * balance the US trade deficit with OPEC, * and OPEN THE WAY FOR ALTERNATIVE ENERGIES BY MAKING THE ALL-POWERFUL, ULTRA-CONSERVATIVE OIL INDUSTRY *LESS LUCRATIVE*. Moreover, reducing public gas consumption would enhance the environment by * lessening air pollution and * reversing the incessant proliferation of petroleum effluents (thus reducing cancer rates and the need for pharmaceuticals, which are also made from petrochemicals). I’ve recently done a number of talk radio shows on the subject with Mr. Byron Wine, who has personally known inventors and witnessed devices that attained over 200 mpg with *heavy* cars. In response to these broadcasts, an army of mechanics, machinists, engineers, NASA scientists, etc. is now amassing worldwide. PLEASE HELP by searching “Pogue carburetor” on the web, or “vapor” & “carburetor” at . A modicum of brainstorming could lead to a design that every backyard tinkerer could assemble from off-the-shelf parts. (This is the only way to effect change--exclusive purveyors have a 100 yr. history of suppression). Lite Shop Talk-------------------------------------------------------------------------- The lowest-tech approach is to vaporize gasoline using engine heat. For example, the Wright bros.’ carburetor (on display in Kitty Hawk NC) dripped gasoline onto a hot surface, and the engine drew only the fumes. This kind of meager trickle is all any engine needs, or can even use! In a Coleman lantern, gasoline is pressurized from below and heated in a tube stuffed with wadding...liquid goes in at the bottom, 100% vapor comes out the top. Automotive analogs involve gasoline tubing heated by the exhaust pipe, steel wool used as liquid retardant / flame suppresser, and vapor venturi at the air intake. This approach might require starting the car with the existing system, then disabling it (via switching or valving) once the car were warmed up. Conceptually, my favorite approach is ULTRASONIC: nebulization is *instantaneous*, control is electronic, a *variety* of fuels can be accommodated, vapor density would be consistent, and mixture with intake air can be precisely & automatically regulated by vacuum & thermal sensors. As soon as logistics can be arranged, I hope to accept an invitation to a dedicated ultra-sonics lab; however, anyone who can conduct experiments first should do so. Among the values to be determined (for *regular-grade* gas) are: * minimum frequencies (MHz) for effecting vaporization without cavitation (for safety), * optimal height of the tubular, vertical liquid gasoline reservoir for propagation of a standing wave (for maximal efficiency), * power curve for transducer wattage vs. vapor output * power curve for vapor output (in terms of wattage) vs. CFM of engine intake air Regards, Russ Rosser UNIR2B1NM@aol.com H) 256-546-5945 C).256-490-4158 c/o 304 Old Camp Rd. Gadsden AL 35904 From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 2 14:33:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA25723; Tue, 2 May 2000 14:32:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 14:32:33 -0700 From: UNIR2B1NM@aol.com Message-ID: <22.53e7326.2640a342@aol.com> Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 17:31:46 EDT Subject: Re: 200 MPG: Don't hit 'Reply' To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5 for Windows sub 1 Resent-Message-ID: <"F-B1k2.0.pH6.mbq3v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14906 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ...please. Address replies to my personal contact #'s, repeated below. Thanks. Russ Rosser UNIR2B1NM@aol.com H) 256-546-5945 C).256-490-4158 c/o 304 Old Camp Rd. Gadsden AL 35904 From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 2 16:51:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA10029; Tue, 2 May 2000 16:50:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 16:50:43 -0700 From: wiltbank@facstaff.wisc.edu Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 18:50:25 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Water-car in English Resent-Message-ID: <"Vm4qu2.0.ZS2.Ids3v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14907 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In English: ================================= the water auto of Daniel Dingle ================================= at the beginning of of 1999 became on the German television in N3 the water auto of Daniel Dingle, which is to drive only with water instead of gasoline, 3 minutes shown in a contribution. When my acquaintance told me of the water auto, I did not believe it initially. After I had looked at myself a copy of the film several times, my skepticism yielded. I gave the address of the inventor Daniel Dingle to my following acquaintance on its journey to the Philippines. Report on a journey of my acquaintance Wolfgang Czapp: In December 1999 until April 2000 I lived on the Philippines. In January 2000 I visited Daniel Dingle in Manila in the Industrial Technology development of institutes. It received me Ernesto S. Luis, PhD. it organized the meeting with Daniel Dingle, which moved forward then with its water auto. It was a 1.6i Toyota Corolla. The water auto needs no gasoline, but drives with water. It needs approximately 4 litres water on 500 km. Water is divided into hydrogen and oxygen with a voltage, which did not want to indicate Daniel Dingle exactly. This hydrogen oxygen mixture is supplied to the engine. Daniel Dingle said that the system takes up 3 ampere with 12 V from the car battery and the generator. This correspond approximately 40 Watt. With these 40 Watts the auto can achieve a rate up to 200 km/h. The idling speed amounts to 500 Upm. I smelled also at the exhaust. The exhaust gas was odorless. Came out only a few water drop. I filmed the auto as well as Mr. Dingle and Mr. Ernesto. one can look at 4 pictures to the water auto under http://www.sline.de/homepages/keppler/wasserauto.htm. In the spring the water auto came several times in the Philippine television. According to a Philippine television report is start 2001 those Series production on the Philippinien begin. I experienced that also many large world-wide companies e.g. VW, which German Tuev etc. called on Dingle. Own note: I have the NDR Fernsehbericht on video cassette. Additionally contact exists to the cameraman, who likewise acknowledges the efficiency of the auto. Form your own opinion. I hope, it was from interest. Greeting Stefan Farwick So there's the translation (rough). Thank Altavista's Babelfish. I think water, lye, and aluminum, which will chemically react to make hydrogen, with water injection to keep the engine cool (hydrogen's HOT!) and increase efficiency would be a interesting way to run a car, but if this works, I guess it would be too. I'm not sure using electricity to split water would get more power than just using it to run a motor, however. George Wiseman has a neat book, actually more than one probably, which deal with using water/hydrogen as a fuel. He's at http://www.eagle-research.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 3 05:28:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA15068; Wed, 3 May 2000 05:27:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 05:27:45 -0700 Message-ID: <003101bfb4fb$10deefa0$048ca7ca@globalfreeway.com.au> From: "John Conran" To: References: Subject: Re: Water-car in English Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 22:28:18 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"mz56w.0.2h3._i14v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14908 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: That link to the car pictures produces an error page. Is this another sign from the big boys? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2000 9:50 AM Subject: Water-car in English > In English: > > ================================= the water auto of Daniel Dingle > ================================= at the beginning of of 1999 became on the > German television in N3 the water auto of Daniel Dingle, which is to drive > only with water instead of gasoline, 3 minutes shown in a contribution. > When my acquaintance told me of the water auto, I did not believe it > initially. After I had looked at myself a copy of the film several times, > my skepticism yielded. I gave the address of the inventor Daniel Dingle to > my following acquaintance on its journey to the Philippines. Report on a > journey of my acquaintance Wolfgang Czapp: In December 1999 until April > 2000 I lived on the Philippines. In January 2000 I visited Daniel Dingle in > Manila in the Industrial Technology development of institutes. It received > me Ernesto S. Luis, PhD. it organized the meeting with Daniel Dingle, which > moved forward then with its water auto. It was a 1.6i Toyota Corolla. The > water auto needs no gasoline, but drives with water. It needs approximately > 4 litres water on 500 km. Water is divided into hydrogen and oxygen with a > voltage, which did not want to indicate Daniel Dingle exactly. This > hydrogen oxygen mixture is supplied to the engine. Daniel Dingle said that > the system takes up 3 ampere with 12 V from the car battery and the > generator. This correspond approximately 40 Watt. With these 40 Watts the > auto can achieve a rate up to 200 km/h. The idling speed amounts to 500 > Upm. I smelled also at the exhaust. The exhaust gas was odorless. Came out > only a few water drop. I filmed the auto as well as Mr. Dingle and Mr. > Ernesto. one can look at 4 pictures to the water auto under > http://www.sline.de/homepages/keppler/wasserauto.htm. In the spring the > water auto came several times in the Philippine television. According to a > Philippine television report is start 2001 those Series production on the > Philippinien begin. I experienced that also many large world-wide > companies e.g. VW, which German Tuev etc. called on Dingle. Own note: I > have the NDR Fernsehbericht on video cassette. Additionally contact exists > to the cameraman, who likewise acknowledges the efficiency of the auto. > Form your own opinion. I hope, it was from interest. Greeting Stefan Farwick > > So there's the translation (rough). Thank Altavista's Babelfish. I think > water, lye, and aluminum, which will chemically react to make hydrogen, > with water injection to keep the engine cool (hydrogen's HOT!) and increase > efficiency would be a interesting way to run a car, but if this works, I > guess it would be too. I'm not sure using electricity to split water would > get more power than just using it to run a motor, however. George Wiseman > has a neat book, actually more than one probably, which deal with using > water/hydrogen as a fuel. He's at http://www.eagle-research.com > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 3 05:49:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA22985; Wed, 3 May 2000 05:49:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 05:49:12 -0700 From: "Phillip Brost" To: Subject: RE: Water-car in English Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 07:45:34 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"sG9Ia.0.2d5.8124v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14909 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thank you for the translation. This paper seemsto be Long on promise short on fact, but I trully hope it works. -----Original Message----- From: wiltbank@facstaff.wisc.edu [mailto:wiltbank@facstaff.wisc.edu] Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2000 6:50 PM To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Water-car in English In English: ================================= the water auto of Daniel Dingle ================================= at the beginning of of 1999 became on the German television in N3 the water auto of Daniel Dingle, which is to drive only with water instead of gasoline, 3 minutes shown in a contribution. When my acquaintance told me of the water auto, I did not believe it initially. After I had looked at myself a copy of the film several times, my skepticism yielded. I gave the address of the inventor Daniel Dingle to my following acquaintance on its journey to the Philippines. Report on a journey of my acquaintance Wolfgang Czapp: In December 1999 until April 2000 I lived on the Philippines. In January 2000 I visited Daniel Dingle in Manila in the Industrial Technology development of institutes. It received me Ernesto S. Luis, PhD. it organized the meeting with Daniel Dingle, which moved forward then with its water auto. It was a 1.6i Toyota Corolla. The water auto needs no gasoline, but drives with water. It needs approximately 4 litres water on 500 km. Water is divided into hydrogen and oxygen with a voltage, which did not want to indicate Daniel Dingle exactly. This hydrogen oxygen mixture is supplied to the engine. Daniel Dingle said that the system takes up 3 ampere with 12 V from the car battery and the generator. This correspond approximately 40 Watt. With these 40 Watts the auto can achieve a rate up to 200 km/h. The idling speed amounts to 500 Upm. I smelled also at the exhaust. The exhaust gas was odorless. Came out only a few water drop. I filmed the auto as well as Mr. Dingle and Mr. Ernesto. one can look at 4 pictures to the water auto under http://www.sline.de/homepages/keppler/wasserauto.htm. In the spring the water auto came several times in the Philippine television. According to a Philippine television report is start 2001 those Series production on the Philippinien begin. I experienced that also many large world-wide companies e.g. VW, which German Tuev etc. called on Dingle. Own note: I have the NDR Fernsehbericht on video cassette. Additionally contact exists to the cameraman, who likewise acknowledges the efficiency of the auto. Form your own opinion. I hope, it was from interest. Greeting Stefan Farwick So there's the translation (rough). Thank Altavista's Babelfish. I think water, lye, and aluminum, which will chemically react to make hydrogen, with water injection to keep the engine cool (hydrogen's HOT!) and increase efficiency would be a interesting way to run a car, but if this works, I guess it would be too. I'm not sure using electricity to split water would get more power than just using it to run a motor, however. George Wiseman has a neat book, actually more than one probably, which deal with using water/hydrogen as a fuel. He's at http://www.eagle-research.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 3 07:50:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA04260; Wed, 3 May 2000 07:50:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 07:50:11 -0700 Message-ID: <39102EFB.C2BF518E@csrlink.net> Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 09:51:55 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-NECCK (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Water Car Links Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------13C30F9E19F24ED53FEFC337" Resent-Message-ID: <"9jQPs1.0.S21.Yo34v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14910 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --------------13C30F9E19F24ED53FEFC337 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.s-line.de/homepages/keppler/impressum.html (german) http://www.s-line.de/homepages/keppler/2frame.htm (English) --------------13C30F9E19F24ED53FEFC337 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  http://www.s-line.de/homepages/keppler/impressum.html  (german)

http://www.s-line.de/homepages/keppler/2frame.htm  (English) --------------13C30F9E19F24ED53FEFC337-- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 3 10:49:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA01771; Wed, 3 May 2000 10:48:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 10:48:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 10:48:51 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: tv@juno.com cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: What happened to the gravity capacitor man ? In-Reply-To: <20000425.180954.-228545.0.tv@juno.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"CjMPy2.0.aR.9Q64v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14911 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 25 Apr 2000 tv@juno.com wrote: > > Did the gravity capacitor man ever come back after April 1st ? Not a peep. > Apparently it was just another hoax as we suspected ? Without any evidence besides email reports, it's hard to tell either way. It's "not proved", and we'll just have to wonder. The guy could have got involved with others who convinced him to go secretive. It could have been a case of pathological science, and he figured out his mistake (although it's a bit hard to mistake seeing a device hover in the air.) Or it could be a hoax. Unless "s" makes contact again, we don't know the situation, and we'll just have to tolerate the ambiguity. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 3 20:13:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA07616; Wed, 3 May 2000 20:12:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 20:12:48 -0700 From: wiltbank@facstaff.wisc.edu Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 22:12:35 -0500 X-Sender: wiltbank@facstaff.wisc.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: 200 MPG--Not a joke, a NECESSITY! Resent-Message-ID: <"h-jav2.0.Ls1.jgE4v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14912 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Ford Motors, Shell Oil, et al have documented efficiencies from 171 to 377 >MPG (see erols.com/byronw); the key is a PURE VAPOR fuel intake system. Yes, absolutely. In my area, Madison Wis., some high school students won a contest or something by making a car that got somewhere the the 200's, I think (something high, at least). So those of you who may be skeptical--he's telling the TRUTH! >Throughout the 1900's, some 2000 fuel saving patents--including 240 patented >gasoline VAPORIZERS--have been barred from the market. I don't know about this. That's a very high number. Were they all banned under the "National Security" excuse, or what? >What, then, does this portend for radical energy alternatives, unless we >>first devote ourselves to creating a device that's so >readily accessible and efficacious as to ignite a public movement that's >>*too big* to suppress?! Here's where I can help. Understand first that I am not paid by George Wiseman or anything. I have purchased one of his books, and found it to be fairly good, although the instructions less than lucid for someone unfamiliar with automobile engine and fuel systems. Anyway, I'm going to plug him again, because he is SELLING actual, physical FUEL SAVER KITS. Or instructions if you can do it yourself. You don't have to wait for promises of a revolution, just buy the thing. There's a carburetor enhancer, or a fuel injection optimizer, depending on what car you have. I never have bothered, because it just doesn't really get me excited, but with how much I drive around now, maybe it would be worth it. They're cheap, and if you don't get gains, you can always ask for a refund. George Wisman has been around for quite a while, answers his email, and won't disappear once he has your money. If you are really interested in the "fuel saving" thing, I would highly suggest going to http://www.eagle-research.com and ordering some fuel-saving stuff. I think you'll be glad you did. Again, I am not being paid or pressured in any way for saying this. Anyway, happy hunting, John Wiltbank - _ _- --__ _-- __-==___ ____________ __-'_-'| ----__ ___________ http://jump.to/the.future _-- _- | '--_| _______ Beat traffic. To a pulp. \___- ww | /. \| \> /| From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 3 20:48:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA24214; Wed, 3 May 2000 20:47:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 20:47:57 -0700 Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 22:47:50 -0500 (CDT) From: Zack Widup X-Sender: w9sz@bluestem To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: 200 MPG--Not a joke, a NECESSITY! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"2HpL53.0.Fw5.iBF4v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14913 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 3 May 2000 wiltbank@facstaff.wisc.edu wrote: > >Ford Motors, Shell Oil, et al have documented efficiencies from 171 to 377 > >MPG (see erols.com/byronw); the key is a PURE VAPOR fuel intake system. > > Yes, absolutely. In my area, Madison Wis., some high school students won a > contest or something by making a car that got somewhere the the 200's, I > think (something high, at least). So those of you who may be > skeptical--he's telling the TRUTH! > > >Throughout the 1900's, some 2000 fuel saving patents--including 240 patented > >gasoline VAPORIZERS--have been barred from the market. > I have copies of several patents by Pogue and Tucker for carburetor designs which use vaporization. There is nothing to stop me or anyone else from building one for my own car. I don't know about marketing them. But I've had the idea that some day I'm going to buy a beater car and put a Pogue or Tucker carburetor on it just to see what I can do with it. - Zack From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 3 21:14:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA02222; Wed, 3 May 2000 21:14:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 21:14:25 -0700 Message-ID: <001d01bfb53d$2dae66a0$18b422cf@a9o0z0> From: "Alik S" To: Subject: Re: 200 MPG--Not a joke, a NECESSITY! Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 20:21:33 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"255fd2.0.YY.WaF4v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14914 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Just out of curiosity, has anyone ever tried using ultrasonic atomizers to vaporize fuel in 100mpg schemes ? Alik S. -----Original Message----- From: Zack Widup To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Thursday, May 04, 2000 3:50 AM Subject: Re: 200 MPG--Not a joke, a NECESSITY! >On Wed, 3 May 2000 wiltbank@facstaff.wisc.edu wrote: > >> >Ford Motors, Shell Oil, et al have documented efficiencies from 171 to 377 >> >MPG (see erols.com/byronw); the key is a PURE VAPOR fuel intake system. >> >> Yes, absolutely. In my area, Madison Wis., some high school students won a >> contest or something by making a car that got somewhere the the 200's, I >> think (something high, at least). So those of you who may be >> skeptical--he's telling the TRUTH! >> >> >Throughout the 1900's, some 2000 fuel saving patents--including 240 patented >> >gasoline VAPORIZERS--have been barred from the market. >> > >I have copies of several patents by Pogue and Tucker for carburetor >designs which use vaporization. There is nothing to stop me or anyone >else from building one for my own car. I don't know about marketing them. >But I've had the idea that some day I'm going to buy a beater car and put >a Pogue or Tucker carburetor on it just to see what I can do with it. > >- Zack > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 3 22:40:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA31481; Wed, 3 May 2000 22:40:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 22:40:26 -0700 From: UNIR2B1NM@aol.com Message-ID: <61.343d012.26426726@aol.com> Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 01:39:50 EDT Subject: Re: 200 MPG--Not a joke, a NECESSITY! To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5 for Windows sub 1 Resent-Message-ID: <"zk5k92.0.jh7.9rG4v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14915 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 00-05-04 00:15:05 EDT, you write: >Just out of curiosity, has anyone ever tried using ultrasonic atomizers to >vaporize fuel in 100mpg schemes ? I saw at least two patented methods by browsing "ultrasonic"/"evaporation"/"carburetor". I spoke to the inventor of #4038348 who, in the latter '70's, successfully interposed a cylindrical transducer between his carb jets. This is an *inefficient* application, but almost *any* method of ALLOWING gas to vaporize more completely increases mileage. The question is what device will be simple & efficacious enough to start a mass trend throughout the population. Although ultrasonics holds great promise, HEAT (much lower tech) is not out of the question. Pogue supposedly licked the problem of correct vapor mixing under varying driving conditions. I believe a historical note about the Pogue carburetor is going up on our new website ; something abou it saving our WWII tanks in Europe by lessening the need of re-fueling. (Of course, the idea was TOO GOOD for *public* consumption). Please contribute ideas to supermpg@egroups.com --Russ From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 3 23:18:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA08469; Wed, 3 May 2000 23:17:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 23:17:21 -0700 From: UNIR2B1NM@aol.com Message-ID: <38.5730cf3.26426fc9@aol.com> Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 02:16:41 EDT Subject: Re: 200 MPG--Not a joke, a NECESSITY! To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5 for Windows sub 1 Resent-Message-ID: <"N3gpU2.0.B42.kNH4v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14916 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, John-- In a message dated 00-05-03 23:13:34 EDT, you write: >I don't know about this. That's a very high number. Were they all banned >under the "National Security" excuse, or what? George Wiseman's latest newsletter explicates various methods used to suppress such ideas, for purposes of global domination! I'm aware of instances ranging from scary phone calls to putative murder. Already, after only 5 talk radio shows, my virtual phone answering service (BellSouth 'Memory Call') is obviously being monitored--the system is sluggish and messages are being witheld at least a day before I can access them (a phone co. CS person has agreed that this is probable). The most decorated naval officer of WWII (also a law PhD) personally told me that in the '70's, a Shell Oil rep informed him that if he & his associates didn't desist from selling the Shelby carburetor, which typically tripled one's gas mileage, "we can't be responsible for the health of you & your family". You see, folks, this is an issue of FREEDOM and PATRIOTISM--we *must* disempower these conspirators who corrupt our 'government', plunder our wealth and imperil our environment in their war against progress. Forget political solutions--let's BUILD something that's easily duplicable and too good for the avg. car owner to pass up! >In my area, Madison Wis., some high school students won a >contest or something by making a car that got somewhere the the 200's, >...George >Wiseman is SELLING actual, physical FUEL SAVER KITS. Or >instructions if you can do it yourself. My recollection was that GW's kits yield 3X mileage at best, not 200mpg--so let's puruse self-contained, total vaporizers for fuel, to retrofit into engines' air intake ducts. Thanks. --Russ From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 4 00:23:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA23464; Thu, 4 May 2000 00:22:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 00:22:49 -0700 Message-ID: <20000504072215.21194.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [63.27.227.156] From: "Timothy Flytch" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: 200 MPG--Not a joke, a NECESSITY! Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 00:22:15 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"bepFA.0.Xk5.9LI4v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14917 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is not meant to be sarcasm... Just an honest (if dumb) question... But it seems that if all we need to do is vaporize gasoline... What about just using a gas that is already a vapor??? Propane??? Butane??? Or??? And if you could get 200+ mpg from gasoline then why can't you get such high mph from these??? Timothy... ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 4 02:06:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA25669; Thu, 4 May 2000 02:06:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 02:06:34 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: 200 MPG--Not a joke, a NECESSITY! Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 19:05:44 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20000504072215.21194.qmail@hotmail.com> In-Reply-To: <20000504072215.21194.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id CAA25597 Resent-Message-ID: <"14BVi2.0.rG6.PsJ4v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14918 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 04 May 2000 00:22:15 PDT, Timothy Flytch wrote: >This is not meant to be sarcasm... Just an honest (if dumb) question... But >it seems that if all we need to do is vaporize gasoline... What about just >using a gas that is already a vapor??? Propane??? Butane??? Or??? And if you >could get 200+ mpg from gasoline then why can't you get such high mph from >these??? This is an excellent question (e.g. LPG, LNG, CNG )! Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 4 04:24:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA07038; Thu, 4 May 2000 04:24:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 04:24:24 -0700 From: dave.tingley@juno.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 07:23:06 -0400 Subject: Re: 200 MPG--Not a joke, a NECESSITY! Message-ID: <20000504.072309.932.1.dave.tingley@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 Resent-Message-ID: <"Fwm-J2.0.lj1.dtL4v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14919 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: yes. this guy has... http://www.raptor-tech.com/ Dave On Wed, 3 May 2000 20:21:33 -0000 "Alik S" writes: > Just out of curiosity, has anyone ever tried using ultrasonic > atomizers to > vaporize fuel in 100mpg schemes ? > > Alik S. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 4 06:30:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA19627; Thu, 4 May 2000 06:29:21 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 06:29:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 08:29:13 -0500 (CDT) From: Zack Widup X-Sender: w9sz@bluestem To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: 200 MPG--Not a joke, a NECESSITY! In-Reply-To: <001d01bfb53d$2dae66a0$18b422cf@a9o0z0> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"GMDw2.0.Yo4.kiN4v"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14920 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 3 May 2000, Alik S wrote: > Just out of curiosity, has anyone ever tried using ultrasonic atomizers to > vaporize fuel in 100mpg schemes ? > > Alik S. I don't think an atomizer will actually vaporize the fuel. You will end up with an emulsion, just as you do with a standard carburetor. The only way to vaporize fuel is to heat it. The designs I've seen in the patents use either exhaust gas heat or electric heat to truly vaporize the fuel. If I remember correctly, Tucker's design draws air up through a porous stone such as pumice saturated with gasoline to atomize it, then draws the atomized air-fuel mixture into a chamber to heat it. Zack From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 4 07:57:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA02256; Thu, 4 May 2000 07:56:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 07:56:27 -0700 From: UNIR2B1NM@aol.com Message-ID: <68.330c95f.2642e970@aol.com> Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 10:55:44 EDT Subject: Re: 200 MPG--Not a joke, a NECESSITY! To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5 for Windows sub 1 Resent-Message-ID: <"-h6XO1.0.5Z.P-O4v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14921 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi-- Thanks to all for a few substantive data. In a message dated 00-05-04 03:23:17 EDT, you write: >This is not meant to be sarcasm... Just an honest (if dumb) question... But >it seems that if all we need to do is vaporize gasoline... What about just >using a gas that is already a vapor??? Propane??? Butane??? Or??? And if you >could get 200+ mpg from gasoline then why can't you get such high mph from >these??? They have far less BTU; even I believe the BTU of gasoline is actually under-rated in order to perpetuate the vehicluar status quo. What would constitute a proper, empirical BTU test? One in which gasoline were maximally vaporized...and *hot*--physicist professor Don Novac, who invented a 100 & 200 MPG carb retrofits, said that gasoline BTU varies w/temperature. IOW, the best test would be in an engine running on hot, compressed, *pure* gasoline VAPOR. And where do find such data? --in VAPOR CARB TESTS! E.g., Ford Motors' *worst*-case test of the Pogue carburetor achieved 171 mpg. Besides documentation in the automotive sphere, I know of one 'apples & apples' comparison between gasoline & propane, published on a Coleman lantern box. Compared to propane, gasoline *vapor* burns 20% brighter, and equal money's worth of gasoline burned 500% longer BACK WHEN PROPANE WAS ~$.70/GAL (instead of $2+) AND GAS WAS ~1.30! Even assuming equal liquid volumes of these fuels, you'd have a 600% margin, so a 20 mpg propane vehicle should get min. 120 mpg with gasoline. Factoring in the price difference, an additonal ~3X, you'd be up around 360 mpg; which Shell Oil documented in '69 (with a '59 Opel) in their publication, _Economy of the Gasoline Engine_. Whatever the technicalities are, the experiential data speak for themselves. Please see erols.com/byronw, and peruse the patents, searching "vapor" "carburetor" and "fuel" at patents.ibm.com ...and let's start prototyping. We're trying to get the bugs out of our new web page, egroups.com/groups/supermpg and new email list, supermpg@egroups.com). Thanks. Russ Rosser UNIR2B1NM@aol.com (‘You & I are to be one in Him’) H) 256-546-5945 C).256-490-4158 c/o 304 Old Camp Rd. Gadsden AL 35904 From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 4 08:28:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA15439; Thu, 4 May 2000 08:27:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 08:27:24 -0700 Message-ID: <39119614.C069DE13@harti.com> Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 17:24:04 +0200 From: Stefan Hartmann Organization: Hartmann Multimedia Service X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [de]C-CCK-MCD QXW03200 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "jlnlabs@egroups.com" , "ou-builders@egroups.com" , Free Energy , Newman-L Mailing List Subject: Microwave electrolysis overunity ! X-Priority: 1 (Highest) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Bqus-1.0.um3.RRP4v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14922 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.oxyhydrogen.com/ This is also a new elctrolysis application, where the mechanical output of the motor is higher than the lectrical power needed to drive the microwave pulses ! -- Best regards, Stefan Hartmann. -- Hartmann Multimedia Service, Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498 email: harti@harti.com info@ccard.net http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB ! From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 4 09:06:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA31848; Thu, 4 May 2000 09:05:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 09:05:39 -0700 Message-ID: <39119FEA.B63A5C8E@info2000.net> Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 10:06:02 -0600 From: Ted Reply-To: tsleber@info2000.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: 200 MPG--Not a joke, a NECESSITY! References: <38.5730cf3.26426fc9@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"96aNT.0.Xn7.I_P4v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14923 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Russ, The GEET plasma fuel processor is a total vaporizer. It will operate on any hydrocarbon source.(I saw it run on a mixture of soda pop, coffee,used oil,water and Sunlite liquid dish soap). It's simple to build. I built my first one in a couble of hours for less than twenty bucks. The GEET people have been running a Chevy Suburban on their system for a couple of years now. Look at www.GEET.com . Have a successful day, Ted From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 4 17:26:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA06590; Thu, 4 May 2000 17:20:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 17:20:04 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Microwave electrolysis overunity ! Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 10:19:15 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <39119614.C069DE13@harti.com> In-Reply-To: <39119614.C069DE13@harti.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA06550 Resent-Message-ID: <"FeJEI3.0.pc1.qEX4v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14924 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 04 May 2000 17:24:04 +0200, Stefan Hartmann wrote: >http://www.oxyhydrogen.com/ > >This is also a new elctrolysis application, >where the mechanical output of the motor >is higher than the lectrical power >needed to drive the microwave pulses ! > >-- > >Best regards, Stefan Hartmann. Has this actually been built, or is it just a pipe-dream? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 4 17:27:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA08956; Thu, 4 May 2000 17:26:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 17:26:36 -0700 Message-ID: <39121467.20BD0A4A@harti.com> Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 02:23:03 +0200 From: Stefan Hartmann Organization: Hartmann Multimedia Service X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [de]C-CCK-MCD QXW03200 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Free Energy , Newman-L Mailing List , "jlnlabs@egroups.com" Subject: Re: PMsquare difference versus VACEs ! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"bcKkw1.0.jB2.vKX4v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14925 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: Stefan Hartmann Date: Thu May 4, 2000 11:09pm Subject: Re: PMsquare difference versus VACEs ! > A toroidal electromagnet or PM's with keepers show ~no interaction in my > tests. > I also tried 2 "U" or semicircular shaped alnico magnets arranged for > internal fields. This was the basis of all the "VACE" (Virtual Amperian > current element) a year ago on freenrg and before. > -Dave D. Hi Dave, as I wrote before: PMsquare is an effect of B-field difference flux density IN AIR ONLY in front and in the back of the PMsquare ! To get real forces you need to have the flux of the PM react to the flux of the static field in an AIRgap ! Only then there will be forces on the runner magnets. If you "enclose" the flux of the PM inside iron core pieces as in your VACE elements, then the airgap flux of the static stator field can not interact anymore with it in the airgap and there is no differential flux density generated between the front and the back of the VACE ! This also should be shown by a FEMM or QF simulation ! Maybe Dave Squires can try to simulate this again with iron core pieces between the PM magnets inside the circle arrangement instead of air with FEMM. Dave will there be any force then ? I guess not. Regards, Stefan. -- Best regards, Stefan Hartmann. -- Hartmann Multimedia Service, Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498 email: harti@harti.com info@ccard.net http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB ! From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 4 17:30:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA26039; Thu, 4 May 2000 17:28:08 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 17:28:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <391214B9.17FEAEA9@harti.com> Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 02:24:25 +0200 From: Stefan Hartmann Organization: Hartmann Multimedia Service X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [de]C-CCK-MCD QXW03200 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Free Energy , Newman-L Mailing List , "jlnlabs@egroups.com" Subject: Re: PMsquare difference versus VACEs ! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4FOde2.0.dM6.HMX4v"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14926 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: Stefan Hartmann Date: Thu May 4, 2000 11:20pm Subject: Re: PMsquare difference versus VACEs ! > > If you "enclose" the flux of the PM inside iron core pieces > as in your VACE elements, then the airgap flux of the static stator > field can not interact anymore with it in the airgap and there is > no differential flux density generated between the front and the back > of the VACE ! This also should be shown by a FEMM or QF simulation ! > > Maybe Dave Squires can try to simulate this again with iron core > pieces between the PM magnets inside the circle arrangement instead > of air with FEMM. > Dave will there be any force then ? I guess not. > > Regards, Stefan. I wanted to add: It is also pretty logical that in a VACE there is no force, because the forces all cancel out already in the iron core pieces ! So if you look at he VACE as a whole body, thie body will not move, because its inner force vectors already cancel each other. The static field "penetrating" the VACE will NOT interact differently before and behind the VACE, so there is no force generated onto the VACE. Just only if you use airgaps, then both fluxes can interact and propell the runner magnets ! -- Best regards, Stefan Hartmann. -- Hartmann Multimedia Service, Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498 email: harti@harti.com info@ccard.net http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB ! From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 4 18:14:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA22584; Thu, 4 May 2000 18:12:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 18:12:53 -0700 Message-ID: <391214E5.6DBAC808@harti.com> Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 02:25:09 +0200 From: Stefan Hartmann Organization: Hartmann Multimedia Service X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [de]C-CCK-MCD QXW03200 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "jlnlabs@egroups.com" , Free Energy , Newman-L Mailing List Subject: Re: FEMM and PMsquare simulations Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"GkhBI2.0.bW5.G0Y4v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14927 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: Stefan Hartmann Date: Thu May 4, 2000 11:40pm Subject: Re: FEMM and PMsquare simulations --- In ou-builders@egroups.com, "Dave Squires" djsquires@p... wrote: > I read the manual some more on FEMM. > When all else fails read the instructions!! > > It is necessary to define the line integral > OUTSIDE the element you want to measure the > stress tensor force on. This avoids discontinuities > at different permeability boundaries. So I did > this again and found that with neodymium magnets > there is a small force of 175 N/m over a half inch. > Who can translate that to say pounds or ounces of > real force? Is it 175*(0.5/39.37)*K = ? > If you use ceramic magnets then forget it with > neodymium magnets as the moveable element. Then > the force is very small and the other way. This > means it is likely zero or so close it doesn't matter. Hi Dave, please try again the simulation with 4 Neodymn PMs stacked as before, not circular ! Also leave a 1 cm space between upper and lower 2 runner PMs. You will see, that you will get a much stronger force then ! In the circular version you posted, you can see, that the flux density before and behind the circular arrangement is not very big, so the forces are logically pretty small ! If you compare this to the "angel shaped color" setup (earlier setup) you can see, that the flux density differences before and behind the runner stack is much longer into the static field and this creates more force on the runner stack ! Also a 90 degrees rotated "v" form of the stack seems to generate even more thrust, due to my last experiments. So don´t just put the upper and lower 2 runner PMs not in parallel, but a few degrees out of parallel ! Regards, Stefan. > Dave Squires -- Best regards, Stefan Hartmann. -- Hartmann Multimedia Service, Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498 email: harti@harti.com info@ccard.net http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB ! From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 4 23:12:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA29581; Thu, 4 May 2000 23:11:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 23:11:30 -0700 From: "Alex P" To: Subject: The [alleged] 200 MPG Car Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 01:01:42 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Disposition-Notification-To: "Alex P" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA29517 Resent-Message-ID: <"5keDC1.0.1E7.GOc4v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14928 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greetings all, In the recent talks about "supermpg" cars, I got to thinking ... If in fact such a "supermpg" car (i.e. >100mpg), and this car is as safe and reliable as existing cars, how would it *not* be a profitable venture to sell these cars in today's "low" mpg market? For existing motor companies ... sure, I suppose in the long run it *may* be a bad idea, but what about a new (gasp!) motor company? Granted, it would take a fair amount of money to start such a company... but shoot, that's relatively easy to come by these days! Let me know what you think! Alex Papadimoulis Halogen Studios Entertainment From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 01:19:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA26813; Fri, 5 May 2000 01:19:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 01:19:12 -0700 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: The [alleged] 200 MPG Car Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 04:32:27 -0400 Message-ID: <20000505083227843.AAA354@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"TE6cm.0.sY6._Fe4v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14929 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Greetings all, > >In the recent talks about "supermpg" cars, I got to thinking ... > >If in fact such a "supermpg" car (i.e. >100mpg), and this car >is as safe and reliable as existing cars, how would it *not* >be a profitable venture to sell these cars in today's "low" >mpg market? For existing motor companies ... sure, I suppose >in the long run it *may* be a bad idea, but what about a new >(gasp!) motor company? Granted, it would take a fair amount >of money to start such a company... but shoot, that's relatively >easy to come by these days! > >Let me know what you think! > >Alex Papadimoulis >Halogen Studios Entertainment We talked about this on the Vortex with regard to electric cars, and came to the conclusion that doing the engineering, testing, and getting the regulatory approval for every part of a body/chassis combo would take years and serious money. If you consider that expense along with that of developing an entirely original IC engine that was free of patent entanglements, etc., you are looking at really big money. Even all the old Eastern European auto manufacturers have either been bought up or destroyed by the big guys. Conversions of already made cars would be the only practical way to go, and that can be done cheaply enough, as Pantone, Wiseman, and others have shown. If you organized franchised conversion outlets with qualified technicians and a guarantee at a reasonable cost, that might be a good endeavor. You could reduce costs by buying parts in bulk, etc. and standardize the installation prodecures over a large number of makes and models. Sort of a MufflerMan idea, only for carbs. In fact, you may broker a deal with an already established third party, after market company like MufflerMan, and see if they would be willing to offer this type of service. I think Pantone and Wiseman have already gotten a start on this concept, but they really don't have any financial backing to push it into overdrive. I'm not sure that they would really want or care to get into that type of investor relationship either, but you could approach them, I suppose. They have a large number of years of experience at it. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 06:14:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA19431; Fri, 5 May 2000 06:13:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 06:13:06 -0700 Message-ID: <001601bfb693$aba79e80$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> From: "Sam Garza" To: References: Subject: Re: The [alleged] 200 MPG Car Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 09:13:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Resent-Message-ID: <"kXo7l2.0.Sl4.XZi4v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14930 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is exactly what I am doing I am developing a modular vehicle that you can drive on land, water or fly up in the air. With an onboard laptop PC for navigation and collision avoidance it will eventually sell for less than a Honda Accord. The amphibious version will be far less and the land only or water only will be still less. I call it an Aircycle. I have been developing it for 15 years. It goes down the road on 3 wheels, on the water on float/skis which make it idiot proof except for suicide running into something on purpose. It will be licensed on the street as a motorcycle which sidesteps all the regulatory red tape of cars with crash testing and smog regulation and its low center of gravity makes it more roll proof than 4 wheel cars. I worked for IBM for 13 years during which I concepted and drove into plan the world's best mechanically packaged PC. It was written up by all the trade journals because you could take it apart and put it back together in less than 1 MINUTE!!!! And if they had done all I tried to get IBM to do it would have been less than 30 seconds!!! Anyway this is the design philosophy behind my vehicle the Aircycle. Gone will be the foul language of mechanics because of bashing their fingers or not being able to get something apart easily. It will not have the thousands of parts of today's automobile. Gone will be the tons of steel to carry around 1 or 2 150-200 pound people. When you add VTOL capability it will be more amazing than the Jetson's vehicle which only flew. This vehicle can run around with all 3 capabilities ready to operate on a moments notice. I have been trying to interest people in getting together on this project for most of the last 12 years. I have about a dozen ordinary people, friends and family that have invested but so far not enough to reach critical momentum. When I put the amphibian out hopefully this year It will start to rock and roll though, with or without investors, on the Aircycle's own merits. I have let about a dozen people drive it on land and about a half dozen drive it on the water. I have built 2 full size prototypes. The first confirmed the concept and had retractable float/skis. The second had retractable wheels with the float/skis closer to the body and greatly enhanced stability in the water. But you had to get out and wade around in the water to retract the wheels. The third prototype will have cockpit retractable wheels so as you drive down a boat ramp you can be retracting the wheels while you are taxiing away from the no-wake zone and be ready to rumble as soon as you are clear. Since you have the wheels with you, you can come out of the water anywhere there is a gentle enough slope or at other boat ramps which could be across a river or lake or miles upriver. This third prototype will be used to make the molds off of for the fast build body which will weigh less than 400 pounds including the engine for the land only and when you add the float/skis and rudder it will still be under 500 pounds. The engine will not be the traditional piston engine although you could use them but they are too expensive, unreliable and heavy. It will use a Tesla Turbine which only spins and weighs less than 100 pounds and has over a hundred Hp and costs a fraction what an I.C. engine does. Its only wearable parts are the bearings and seals. It will be good for millions of miles as it is all stainless steel and nothing touches except the bearings and seals. This vehicle will be sold at licensed distributorships all over the world, which will cost less than a Taco Bell or Burger King franchise to get into business with but which will require very high ethics of conduct to keep in the year to year license renewal (such as no dissatisfied customers that were not referred to me if necessary). I call it a Taco Bell or Burger King vehicle as 1-30 people will manufacture them in cities all over the world to one set of prints. This business will not be a run of the mill business either I have been gathering ideas for years how to have the best company in the world while building the best vehicle in the world. Its top line, its bottom line, its only line will be WWJD (What Would Jesus Do) with both customer and employee. I am sick of the cheap wimpy Christianity that is rampant in the world. Since "The love of money is the root of all evil" what better way to demonstrate REAL CHRISTianity than in business!!! Gone will be used car salesmen (liars) Since the only parts that wear on the Aircycle are bearings and brakes you will be able to check them out on equipment like PCs that can now notify of aging bearings on hard drives so too can you check the engine or wheel bearings. The Aircycle has no transmission. The brakes are all disk brakes which can be sight checked so no worries about any major failures in the used Aircycle business that will eventually develop. Employees will be covered by all necessary insurance and taught how to get out of debt and stay out of debt and will be kept abreast of all the latest natural health benefits with rewards for practicing them as well. ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex P To: Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 1:01 AM Subject: The [alleged] 200 MPG Car > Greetings all, > > In the recent talks about "supermpg" cars, I got to thinking ... > > If in fact such a "supermpg" car (i.e. >100mpg), and this car > is as safe and reliable as existing cars, how would it *not* > be a profitable venture to sell these cars in today's "low" > mpg market? For existing motor companies ... sure, I suppose > in the long run it *may* be a bad idea, but what about a new > (gasp!) motor company? Granted, it would take a fair amount > of money to start such a company... but shoot, that's relatively > easy to come by these days! > > Let me know what you think! > > Alex Papadimoulis > Halogen Studios Entertainment > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 06:52:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA29782; Fri, 5 May 2000 06:51:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 06:51:16 -0700 From: "Peter Fred" To: "Freenrg-L" Subject: An increase in weight and antigravity Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 09:48:13 -0400 Message-ID: <000501bfb698$8f559ca0$84eeffcc@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"mWIqs2.0.FH7.K7j4v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14931 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I would like to make the case, as I have done before, that gravity is a heat-related phenomena. If we discount the Cavendish balance experiment we have mostly mathematical proof that gravity is related to mass. My heat-related theory can use the ubiquitous starlight not the ubiquitous unseen and unfound dark matter to account for higher-than-expected rotation curves and the recently observed "acceleration of the universe." With the new CMB studies a flat universe seems warranted. But with mass-centric gravity theories of Newton and Einstein a flat universe will require the belief that 70 % of the universe should reside in the vacuum. This is getting a little loony tunes isn't it. To talk less on theory and more on experiment, let me say that I have finally observed an increase weight using heat in the laboratory. Here is a brief description of the basic idea behind my theory "The central organizing principle of the Ordered Freedom theory is that the gravitational force found inside a spherical body is a manifestation or a consequence of the way heat flows through a spherical body in the steady state. The purpose of this force is to provide the necessary thermal resistance so that unit area heat flux flowing through that body will vary inversely as the square of the radius. If the heat flux does not vary in this way, a violation of the principle of the conservation of energy would occur." If my theory is correct then it makes producing gravity a lot easier than the way that has to be done with de Aquino's method where a 63 % decrease in weight was observed using what could be described as an "EM theory that relates mass to temperature." Without university resources and at about a tenth of the power a that de Aquino used, I have observed a 2.9 % decrease. With 2250 watts flowing upwards through a convex-up hollow, copper hemisphere I have now observed a 0.41 % increase in weight. This observation should obviate those criticisms made in the past that my 2.9 % decrease was due to spurious heat effects. In closing I would like show a quote from a believable source that UFO's are propelled by pushing heat through a sphere: In his book "Fire in the Sky", Walton would later describe his perceptions as he allegedly first regained consciousness: "I regained consciousness lying on my stomach, my head on my right forearm. Cold air brought me instantly awake. I looked up in time to see a light turn off on the bottom of a curved, gleaming hull... Then I saw the mirrored outline of a silvery disc hovering four feet above the paved surface of the road. It must have been about forty feet in diameter because it extended several feet off the left side of the road... For an instant it floated silently above the road, a dozen yards away. I could see the night sky, the surrounding trees, and the highway center line reflected in the curving mirror of its hull. I noticed a faint warmth radiating onto my face. Then, abruptly, it shot vertically into the sky, creating a strong breeze that stirred the nearby pine boughs and rustled the dry oak leaves that lay in the dry grass beside the road. It gave off no light, and it was almost instantly lost from sight. The most striking thing about its departure was its quietness..." This quote is from http://www.anw.com/fire/GPriceReport.htm My site is now at http://members.iglou.com/nfred/ De Aquino's work can be found at http://members.aol.com/jnaudin509/systemg/index.html Regards Peter Fred From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 09:05:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA05940; Fri, 5 May 2000 09:03:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 09:03:47 -0700 Message-ID: <3912E330.86FF842D@csrlink.net> Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 11:05:20 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-NECCK (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: H2OPower@listbot.com Subject: [Fwd: AW: Water Car]Inventors address and phone Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------9251F5D18F572C891CA5AD77" Resent-Message-ID: <"p6Eeg.0.SS1.X3l4v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14932 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------9251F5D18F572C891CA5AD77 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HI All, I emailed the german and he sent me the following info: --------------9251F5D18F572C891CA5AD77 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from msheas02.msh.de (msheas02.msh.de [212.4.227.2]) by uplink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA18842 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 18:07:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rolfkepp (a01-014.dialin.msh.de [212.4.224.14]) by msheas02.msh.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA29928 for ; Thu, 4 May 2000 00:05:49 +0200 Reply-To: From: "Gute Ideen von Rolf Keppler" To: "Mike Johnston" Subject: AW: Water Car Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 00:08:23 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <39102AC0.82D97AAB@csrlink.net> X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 It ist the best if you contact the inventor directly Dr.Ernesto S. Luis Industrial Technology Development Institute Development Science Bicutan Science Complex Taguig, Metro Manila, Philippines Fax 00632 - 837 3167 / 837 0032 Tel. - 837 2071 It ist difficult to get the rights, because Luis has not the money for a patent for the whole earth, I think. Mit freundlichen Grüßen von Rolf Keppler Spreuergasse 24 D-70372 Stuttgart Tel.: 0711 55 93 87 Fax: 089 2443 54 701 keppler@n.zgs.de http://www.s-line.de/homepages/keppler *** -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- *** Von: Mike Johnston [mailto:enki@csrlink.net] *** Gesendet: Mittwoch, 3. Mai 2000 15:34 *** An: keppler@n.zgs.de *** Betreff: Water Car *** *** *** Hi, *** In looking at the pictures and description of the water car on your *** site I was curious as to where to get more information. Such as *** schematics, etc.. *** Thank You, *** MJ *** *** --------------9251F5D18F572C891CA5AD77-- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 11:20:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA23568; Fri, 5 May 2000 11:19:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 11:19:39 -0700 From: HLafonte@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 14:18:43 EDT Subject: Simple formula for o/u ? To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, energy21@listbot.com, jlnlabs@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_e8.3fc4183.26446a83_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 102 Resent-Message-ID: <"fQsga2.0.Ul5.u2n4v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14933 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_e8.3fc4183.26446a83_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A rod shaped rotor with a cylinder shaped magnet at each end. Like poles on the rotor ends. Two air coils, one at each end, one in repulsion, one in attraction. As rotor rotates, coil in repulsion inputs voltage to circuit, coil in attraction reduces voltage to circuit. Voltage in circuit stays stable, forces cancel each out. When rotor is in line with coil centers, attraction air coil goes to open circuit and sends it's voltage spike to repulsion coil. Repulsion coil now repels rotor around as attraction coil is now just copper wire open circuit with no magnetic field. Formula> attraction/repulsion air coils in cancellation, attraction magnetic field energy sent to repulsion field. (testing will tell) See attached Thanks, Butch LaFonte --part1_e8.3fc4183.26446a83_boundary Content-Type: image/gif; name="butch.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="butch.gif" R0lGODlhbAK8AfcAAAAAADk5OUpKSlpaWnNzc3t7e4yMjJycnL29vf8AAP97AP97e/+cnP+9 vf////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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ryzISU7ZkZ88ryZX+VdT3nKcshzmN335zB0qc5uXs+Y55yXOed5LXf88uT4XujmDXnSOaxzp Rvf20lGudKdbcedRLx7RqX51rHvV6lnnetcjuXWvjzd3Yf/5vMh+9qOhPedjV7vX2d72ipsd 7m2X+9zjbne8Iy3vEq/73tH+dr9bGvCBd3vfCT9owx9e7YlXfJAZ3/izDx7yYp884SVfecpe HvNh1/zmH/p4z9M99MkF/egX/l9600cS9an/++pZv7TOvz7yrpe9kGhf+7/jHpK31/3se188 3v/e98JXU+yJT/fgH38yyVd+7pvfH+Y/f/jSZ070qT/966/G+Nm3+/a5H7Tvv9764UfJ+Mnf +vOTxfzpRz/7a+J99+cd/t9ff/zhXv/j49/+yN+/SvTff/4DQL0TwN+bv977PwLsPvtDwATs PgaEvAdsQAcMPwOUQMyrwMqLQAv0Ow28vw0kPwy0vA9MvxDEuxIcwdE7wcVDwf3rQKpzQRaE QBgsuhmMQRkMPRW0wdrLwaWrQR3cPB8MuSD8wQscQr4jwhHkwZZTQiQUPib0OCNsQtOLwnij QilM/kErFLwrRMInBLgu3MLn+8IqBEMwzMIVM0MylD0xrDQ0TMMdbMPYWkM35D45PMM5vENe sTk4xMMD3MPP40NATLu488NALEBCxKJDLEQnPEJFbERB1LdEdETiq8NyokRJbMFIpJBMvMTm 20T/8EROVD5LtCBQDMVOLMWfQUVTPEUsU8VVlD5XlIxYfMUwnEWzsEVarMX8GsVcjEFeHA9c 7MXskzvQwYijehd0MRfLOYADcJuIqRh5eaAHOgkEIkZhvMabCKWUEJpCsZ2O8RIE4BJFgZve OYmzSZu1wRFsXMewoBFmTBNjNLteWRtjtBh24ZLdOce6kxUxYUd/rAkzupkbQezGQskdbpRH Yqy799mdf2xItAkUfTTHGGEXg0RIiSy/vkMgh9zIlnjGGrnIeBQet6lIkAQZk5yXcHwfjlxJ trkILnGbgQwUfFSUomlGe3RJaDTJtAsUW3lEltxIWVHHkBxK38ERcIRGuSlHojzJb7QYmPxJ oJSRGEFGjMGYH7GIZiSXmvzIaKzKYwyTAoiYp4RKsixLszxLtExLtVxLtmxLt3xLuIxLuZxL uqxLu7xLvMzL5ggIAAA7 --part1_e8.3fc4183.26446a83_boundary-- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 11:53:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA32636; Fri, 5 May 2000 11:52:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 11:52:09 -0700 Message-ID: <39130AA1.88D609E5@csrlink.net> Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 13:53:37 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-NECCK (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael S. Johnston" Subject: Address for the water car institute's website! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"PU_CK3.0.kz7.OXn4v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14934 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, In researching Role's Hydrogen powered car I tried to find Dr. Ernesto with no luck. However I did find the: Industrial Technology Development Institute Development Science Bicutan Science Complex Taguig, Metro Manila, Philippines Fax 00632 - 837 3167 / 837 0032 Tel. - 837 2071 Here is the address for the main page of their website. http://www.esprint.com/~phil/Institutions/itdi.htm It is a government run institution. If this is a fake then it is certainly a well researched one! I emailed the institute's director for info on Dr. Luis and the water car. I'll let you know the results. MJ P.S.: If this turns out to be real I claim dibs on the story. I'm a writer and I gotta make a living somehow. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 15:01:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA08798; Fri, 5 May 2000 14:59:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 14:59:32 -0700 Message-ID: <39133691.EE62D58C@csrlink.net> Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 17:01:06 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-NECCK (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ceo@oxyhydrogen.com CC: "Michael S. Johnston" Subject: Your Device Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"tNUVI1.0.N92.3Hq4v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14935 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi CEO, I guess the first question is ; have you built a motor such as the one you describe and, if so, does it work? Second, is there a schematic for this device? Third, are there any sources you can list for the information that you use in your description (such as the temperature at which water disassociates, susceptibility to microwave radiation, etc..)? Thanks, MJ P.S.: I will be sharing whatever information that you may supply with some friends of mine. ;-) From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 18:02:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA07590; Fri, 5 May 2000 18:01:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 18:01:19 -0700 Sender: crusoe@eskimo.com Message-ID: <39131C65.32A863CA@worldnet.att.net> Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 14:09:25 -0500 From: Daniel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14-15mdk i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: An increase in weight and antigravity References: <000501bfb698$8f559ca0$84eeffcc@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Cark2.0.Ps1.Uxs4v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14936 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Peter Fred wrote: > > I would like to make the case, as I have done before, that gravity is a > heat-related phenomena. If we discount the Cavendish balance experiment we > have mostly mathematical proof that gravity is related to mass. My > heat-related theory can use the ubiquitous starlight not the ubiquitous > unseen and unfound dark matter to account for higher-than-expected rotation > curves and the recently observed "acceleration of the universe." With the > new CMB studies a flat universe seems warranted. But with mass-centric > gravity theories of Newton and Einstein a flat universe will require the > belief that 70 % of the universe should reside in the vacuum. This is > getting a little loony tunes isn't it. > > To talk less on theory and more on experiment, let me say that I have > finally observed an increase weight using heat in the laboratory. Here is a > brief description of the basic idea behind my theory > > "The central organizing principle of the Ordered Freedom theory is that the > gravitational force found inside a spherical body is a manifestation or a > consequence of the way heat flows through a spherical body in the steady > state. The purpose of this force is to provide the necessary thermal > resistance so that unit area heat flux flowing through that body will vary > inversely as the square of the radius. If the heat flux does not vary in > this way, a violation of the principle of the conservation of energy would > occur." > > If my theory is correct then it makes producing gravity a lot easier than > the way that has to be done with de Aquino's method where a 63 % decrease in > weight was observed using what could be described as an "EM theory that > relates mass to temperature." > > Without university resources and at about a tenth of the power a that de > Aquino used, I have observed a 2.9 % decrease. With 2250 watts flowing > upwards through a convex-up hollow, copper hemisphere I have now observed a > 0.41 % increase in weight. This observation should obviate those criticisms > made in the past that my 2.9 % decrease was due to spurious heat effects. Wouldn't the 2 results be the same? How do you mitigate thermal effects/ convection? In order to prove it, you'd need to do the exp in a vaccuum, I reckon your weight changes would disappear in the absence of air. Even a small bell jar would suffice. As Air inside the jar decreases, I'll bet your weight effects do too. ;) Realize also that the shape of the object being heated affects the convection currents around it, and thus whether it appears to gain or lose weight. So spheres may show decreases, while cones, or other shapes may show increases due to differences in convection. The only way to prove your theory is to perform it in a vaccuum. Daniel From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 23:53:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA09701; Fri, 5 May 2000 23:53:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 23:53:20 -0700 From: "Peter Fred" To: Subject: RE: An increase in weight and antigravity Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 02:50:47 -0400 Message-ID: <000001bfb727$69406a60$47efffcc@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <39131C65.32A863CA@worldnet.att.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"3SHDm3.0.UN2.W5y4v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14937 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: crusoe@eskimo.com [mailto:crusoe@eskimo.com]On Behalf Of Daniel Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 3:09 PM To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: An increase in weight and antigravity P > weight was observed using what could be described as an "EM theory that > relates mass to temperature." > > Without university resources and at about a tenth of the power a that de > Aquino used, I have observed a 2.9 % decrease. With 2250 watts flowing > upwards through a convex-up hollow, copper hemisphere I have now observed a > 0.41 % increase in weight. This observation should obviate those criticisms > made in the past that my 2.9 % decrease was due to spurious heat effects. Wouldn't the 2 results be the same? With the increase in weight configuration where hot air is underneath a convex-up, hollow copper hemisphere, you got to claim that this hot air will produce a decrease in weight. This is what makes hot air balloons rise. But I get an INCREASE in weight. But then you say that this increase in weight is do to a convection effect? The only convection that I would believe that would occur would be the hot air that would flow over the outer curved surface of the hollow hemisphere when it was in the convex-up configuration. But this convection effect which would be better termed a "air foil effect" would create a force that would produce a DECREASE in weight. You ask "Wouldn't the 2 results be the same?" . I would like to know how? Incidentally for the convex-down configuration studied with the hollow aluminum hemisphere, convection effects or air foil effects would produce a force that would produce an increase in weight. But as has been stated an decrease in weight or force was observed with the hollow aluminum hemisphere? I have seen you are interested in the Faile effect. I have spent many hours talking physics with Sam over the ten years I lived near him. I am the one that took picture at his site where he is seen holding his box http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/7919/trnsph.htm) I have seen most of his transparency devices and with most of them I could observe the transparency effect. However I do not like the effect or the theory that is used to explain it. I would love to be able to dismiss it as an optical illusion or some other spurious effect. But I can not muster the arguments to dismiss the effect that I can believe in. Sam like me is on a limited budget. He is doing the best he can with the resources he has to examine and experiment with his effect. I can not summarily dismiss his effect because he has not done this or that experimentally with it. Since Sam does not have a computer and it is hard to communicate with him using snail mail, I would be glad to answer any question you may have about his work. Although my memory is not so good and I had a hard time paying attention to the many efforts he made to study his effect. Regards Peter Fred PS By the way, while our views about physics are at the opposite ends of the Earth, Sam has finally admitted to me in the last two years that he now believes that I have a valid effect and decent theory. He has told me that what, in particular, turned him over to my side was the way my theory unexpectedly can resolve the solar neutrino problem. He was also impressed with my prediction that I made to him 1988 that there would be very little experimental evidence forthcoming to establish the reality of the ubiquitous unseen dark matter. How do you mitigate thermal effects/ convection? In order to prove it, you'd need to do the exp in a vaccuum, I reckon your weight changes would disappear in the absence of air. Even a small bell jar would suffice. As Air inside the jar decreases, I'll bet your weight effects do too. ;) Realize also that the shape of the object being heated affects the convection currents around it, and thus whether it appears to gain or lose weight. So spheres may show decreases, while cones, or other shapes may show increases due to differences in convection. The only way to prove your theory is to perform it in a vaccuum. Daniel From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 6 00:34:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA17468; Sat, 6 May 2000 00:33:46 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 00:33:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20000506073304.94798.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [63.27.225.151] From: "Timothy Flytch" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: simple solution sought... Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 00:33:04 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"OkSBU.0.rG4.Nhy4v"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14938 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Even though this is not directly OU... I am seeking the cheapest and/or easiest way to produce gas pressure??? Steam generator/boiler??? Gas generator??? or??? Any and all opinions are welcome either on or off list Thank you, Timothy... ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 6 00:39:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA16882; Sat, 6 May 2000 00:37:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 00:37:49 -0700 Message-ID: <20000506073714.40104.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [63.27.225.151] From: "Timothy Flytch" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The [alleged] 200 MPG Car Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 00:37:14 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"O9hCq2.0.h74.Bly4v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14939 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Sam, How can I get more information??? Do you have a web page??? I am truly interested in seeing this Aircycle... Thank you, Timothy... >This is exactly what I am doing I am developing a modular vehicle that you >can drive on land, water or fly up in the air. With an onboard laptop PC >for >navigation and collision avoidance it will eventually sell for less than a >Honda Accord. The amphibious version will be far less and the land only or >water only will be still less. I call it an Aircycle. I have been >developing >it for 15 years. It goes down the road on 3 wheels, on the water on >float/skis which make it idiot proof except for suicide running into >something on purpose. It will be licensed on the street as a motorcycle >which sidesteps all the regulatory red tape of cars with crash testing and >smog regulation and its low center of gravity makes it more roll proof than >4 wheel cars. > >I worked for IBM for 13 years during which I concepted and drove into plan >the world's best mechanically packaged PC. It was written up by all the >trade journals because you could take it apart and put it back together in >less than 1 MINUTE!!!! And if they had done all I tried to get IBM to do it >would have been less than 30 seconds!!! Anyway this is the design >philosophy >behind my vehicle the Aircycle. >Gone will be the foul language of mechanics because of bashing their >fingers >or not being able to get something apart easily. It will not have the >thousands of parts of today's automobile. Gone will be the tons of steel to >carry around 1 or 2 150-200 pound people. When you add VTOL capability it >will be more amazing than the Jetson's vehicle which only flew. This >vehicle >can run around with all 3 capabilities ready to operate on a moments >notice. >I have been trying to interest people in getting together on this project >for most of the last 12 years. I have about a dozen ordinary people, >friends >and family that have invested but so far not enough to reach critical >momentum. When I put the amphibian out hopefully this year It will start to >rock and roll though, with or without investors, on the Aircycle's own >merits. I have let about a dozen people drive it on land and about a half >dozen drive it on the water. > >I have built 2 full size prototypes. The first confirmed the concept and >had >retractable float/skis. The second had retractable wheels with the >float/skis closer to the body and greatly enhanced stability in the water. >But you had to get out and wade around in the water to retract the wheels. >The third prototype will have cockpit retractable wheels so as you drive >down a boat ramp you can be retracting the wheels while you are taxiing >away >from the no-wake zone and be ready to rumble as soon as you are clear. >Since >you have the wheels with you, you can come out of the water anywhere there >is a gentle enough slope or at other boat ramps which could be across a >river or lake or miles upriver. This third prototype will be used to make >the molds off of for the fast build body which will weigh less than 400 >pounds including the engine for the land only and when you add the >float/skis and rudder it will still be under 500 pounds. The engine will >not >be the traditional piston engine although you could use them but they are >too expensive, unreliable and heavy. It will use a Tesla Turbine which only >spins and weighs less than 100 pounds and has over a hundred Hp and costs a >fraction what an I.C. engine does. Its only wearable parts are the bearings >and seals. It will be good for millions of miles as it is all stainless >steel and nothing touches except the bearings and seals. > >This vehicle will be sold at licensed distributorships all over the world, >which will cost less than a Taco Bell or Burger King franchise to get into >business with but which will require very high ethics of conduct to keep in >the year to year license renewal (such as no dissatisfied customers that >were not referred to me if necessary). I call it a Taco Bell or Burger King >vehicle as 1-30 people will manufacture them in cities all over the world >to >one set of prints. This business will not be a run of the mill business >either I have been gathering ideas for years how to have the best company >in >the world while building the best vehicle in the world. Its top line, its >bottom line, its only line will be WWJD (What Would Jesus Do) with both >customer and employee. I am sick of the cheap wimpy Christianity that is >rampant in the world. Since "The love of money is the root of all evil" >what >better way to demonstrate REAL CHRISTianity than in business!!! Gone will >be >used car salesmen (liars) Since the only parts that wear on the Aircycle >are >bearings and brakes you will be able to check them out on equipment like >PCs >that can now notify of aging bearings on hard drives so too can you check >the engine or wheel bearings. The Aircycle has no transmission. The brakes >are all disk brakes which can be sight checked so no worries about any >major >failures in the used Aircycle business that will eventually develop. >Employees will be covered by all necessary insurance and taught how to get >out of debt and stay out of debt and will be kept abreast of all the latest >natural health benefits with rewards for practicing them as well. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Alex P >To: >Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 1:01 AM >Subject: The [alleged] 200 MPG Car > > > > Greetings all, > > > > In the recent talks about "supermpg" cars, I got to thinking ... > > > > If in fact such a "supermpg" car (i.e. >100mpg), and this car > > is as safe and reliable as existing cars, how would it *not* > > be a profitable venture to sell these cars in today's "low" > > mpg market? For existing motor companies ... sure, I suppose > > in the long run it *may* be a bad idea, but what about a new > > (gasp!) motor company? Granted, it would take a fair amount > > of money to start such a company... but shoot, that's relatively > > easy to come by these days! > > > > Let me know what you think! > > > > Alex Papadimoulis > > Halogen Studios Entertainment > > > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 6 17:04:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA10891; Sat, 6 May 2000 17:03:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 17:03:32 -0700 Message-ID: <3914B205.52EE0415@harti.com> Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 02:00:05 +0200 From: Stefan Hartmann Organization: Hartmann Multimedia Service X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [de]C-CCK-MCD QXW03200 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "jlnlabs@egroups.com" , Free Energy , "ou-builders@egroups.com" , Newman-L Mailing List Subject: Dingle watercar video. X-Priority: 2 (High) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"h17UI3.0.1g2.IBB5v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14940 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, I did get today the short 3 minute video tape of the Dingle watercar. It is not very technical, but you can see, that on the water battery system there is printed "High voltage". So it seems it runs on a high voltage electrolysis process. You can see the inventor pouring water into the electrolysis cell and that is it. Then only you can see him drive around with his car. I hope I will soon get a copy of the tape, that the vsisitor Mr. Czapp has made, when he was in the Philipines. This tape should be much more interesting and technically better. But I will do in a few days a digital Online copy of this tape in ASF format. Stay tuned. Regards, Stefan. -- Best regards, Stefan Hartmann. -- Hartmann Multimedia Service, Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498 email: harti@harti.com info@ccard.net http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB ! From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 6 17:22:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA16107; Sat, 6 May 2000 17:21:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 17:21:22 -0700 Message-ID: <3914B604.99A7371B@harti.com> Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 02:17:09 +0200 From: Stefan Hartmann Organization: Hartmann Multimedia Service X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [de]C-CCK-MCD QXW03200 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Free Energy , Newman-L Mailing List , "ou-builders@egroups.com" , "jlnlabs@egroups.com" Subject: Troy Reed and Dennis Lee motors ?! X-Priority: 1 (Highest) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Frlo73.0.1x3.-RB5v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14941 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, today I also saw the video tape: "The race to zero point" There was shown the second prototype running motor of Troy Reed. He started the motor by powering it with the 110 Volts AC grid and then pulled the plug and then the motor went on and then he powered a 110 Volts incand. bulb. (Maybe around 50 to 100 Watts bulb). The motor-generator of him kept on turning and lighting up this bulb. Unfortunately they did show this only pretty short time, maybe 10 seconds, so one could not see, if the motor would run down only to his flywheel stored power... But Troy said it would run on and he had it on a moveable table and drove it around the room, so you could see, that there was no hidden energy cell or cable around the table. Unfortunately this report about this motor was pretty short on the tape. 2. Then there was also shown Dennis Lee with a machine, I guess it was a combination of a heat pump and a heat motor, that did run on its own energy by cooling down the environment and also lighting up a few bulbs coupled to a generator. It also was only shown for a short segment, so there was not much background info given, but it did work. But I don´t know, if there was any battery used still to power any part of the machine, or if it really worked just by cooling down the environment as claimed... Does anybody have seen this bigger machine of Dennis Lee on one of his recent shows ? Is this somehow faked or does it really seem to work as claimed ? (Does he still use any batteries in this machine to start it or to drive it ??) BTW, Joe Newman was also shown with a quite big FAN motor running a big FAN blade (almost I guess about 1 meter diameter !), but it did run pretty slow and the input and output measurements again were not very convincing. Just his old DC and RF amperemeters and we know the RF current is not producing any heat inside the coil. So this was not such a good demo of Newman. Well I will probably soon post a few clips out of this tape. Stay tuned. -- Best regards, Stefan Hartmann. -- Hartmann Multimedia Service, Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498 email: harti@harti.com info@ccard.net http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB ! From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 6 18:53:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA11938; Sat, 6 May 2000 18:52:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 18:52:34 -0700 Sender: crusoe@eskimo.com Message-ID: <391479E9.4D1346F9@worldnet.att.net> Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 15:00:41 -0500 From: Daniel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14-15mdk i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: An increase in weight and antigravity References: <000001bfb727$69406a60$47efffcc@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"xEgLJ3.0.Fw2.XnC5v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14942 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Peter Fred wrote: > > Wouldn't the 2 results be the same? > Well I have posited a reasonable explanation, and I still think you have yet to rule convection out. We're talking a variation of fluid dynamics here, and in some cases, depending on the shape of an object, the kinds of forces experienced may change. So yes, different shapes may yield different results. The only real way to test would be in a vaccuum chamber. Also realize that flipping an object over is no proof, due to chance, it may just be they yield the same effect. Ideally, one would test all sorts of shapes, configurations, in air and in vaccuum. > I have seen you are interested in the Faile effect. I have spent many hours > talking physics with Sam over the ten years I lived near him. I am the one > that took picture at his site where he is seen holding his box > http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/7919/trnsph.htm) > > I have seen most of his transparency devices and with most of them I could > observe the transparency effect. > > However I do not like the effect or the theory that is used to explain it. > I would love to be able to dismiss it as an optical illusion or some other > spurious effect. But I can not muster the arguments to dismiss the effect > that I can believe in. Sam like me is on a limited budget. He is doing the > best he can with the resources he has to examine and experiment with his > effect. I can not summarily dismiss his effect because he has not done this > or that experimentally with it. If you can give me more info about lighting conditions, or what the viewing conditions were like, I'd appreciate it a lot. This one seems possible. And it may be explainable inside the current framework of physics. I fear your thermodynamic idea may have a harder time. > > Since Sam does not have a computer and it is hard to communicate with him > using snail mail, I would be glad to answer any question you may have about > his work. Although my memory is not so good and I had a hard time paying > attention to the many efforts he made to study his effect. > > Regards > > Peter Fred > > PS > > By the way, while our views about physics are at the opposite ends of the > Earth, Sam has finally admitted to me in the last two years that he now > believes that I have a valid effect and decent theory. He has told me that > what, in particular, turned him over to my side was the way my theory > unexpectedly can resolve the solar neutrino problem. He was also impressed > with my prediction that I made to him 1988 that there would be very little > experimental evidence forthcoming to establish the reality of the ubiquitous > unseen dark matter. > > How do you mitigate thermal effects/ convection? > > In order to prove it, you'd need to do the exp in a vaccuum, I reckon > your weight changes would disappear in the absence of air. > > Even a small bell jar would suffice. As Air inside the jar decreases, > I'll bet your weight effects do too. ;) > > Realize also that the shape of the object being heated affects the > convection currents around it, and thus whether it appears to gain or > lose weight. So spheres may show decreases, while cones, or other shapes > may show increases due to differences in convection. > > The only way to prove your theory is to perform it in a vaccuum. > > Daniel From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 6 22:37:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA16886; Sat, 6 May 2000 22:37:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 22:37:04 -0700 Message-ID: <003a01bfb7e7$c1972620$7aa270d1@markross> From: "sparky" To: References: <20000506073304.94798.qmail@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: simple solution sought... Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 21:47:02 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"ELRDd1.0.e74._3G5v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14943 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The answer depends on many things. such as, how much pressure, how much volume. Do you want it continuously or part time? Can you use electricity? And so on. Maybe tell what you what you want to use it for. Also where you live. Is there lots of sun light, do you have natural gas? what does it cost? I do not think anyone can give you a answer with the information you gave. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Timothy Flytch" To: Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 11:33 PM Subject: simple solution sought... > Even though this is not directly OU... I am seeking the cheapest and/or > easiest way to produce gas pressure??? Steam generator/boiler??? Gas > generator??? or??? > > Any and all opinions are welcome either on or off list > Thank you, > Timothy... > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 6 23:28:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA01052; Sat, 6 May 2000 23:27:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 23:27:53 -0700 From: "Peter Fred" To: Subject: RE: An increase in weight and antigravity Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 02:25:19 -0400 Message-ID: <000001bfb7ed$049885e0$27efffcc@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <391479E9.4D1346F9@worldnet.att.net> Resent-Message-ID: <"_IBWI3.0.HG.fpG5v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14944 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Is it just chance that my basic formula i.e. g(r) = (Q'/M)8 pi r can predict the surface gravity of earth and moon at above the 90 % level? Is it just chance that the horizontal component of downward gravitational force of the little ball can predict the force measured in a Cavendish balance experiment at 92 % level in one case and at 87 % in an other? Is it just chance that center-of-mass coordinates can predict the secular advance of Mercury's perihelion at 97 % of the observed value? And a modification of center-of-mass coordinates predict the secular advance of Venus at 90 % and that of Earth at 83 %? (where GR can predict Venus at 98 % and the Earth at 76 %). Are my temperature measures indicating that heat can conduct better downwards as opposed to upwards just a random chance event? With my theory I can marshal the arguments that the gravitational force acts to resist the flow of heat into or out of a sphere? I perform two kinds of experiments that indicate that this is so. With one of my experiments I use heat to get an increase in weight. It is a rare thing that heat effects can produce an increase in weight. Yet you feel justified to summarily reject my results as just a random chance event. I am describing my work to this freenrg newsgroups with the hopes someone will attempt to replicate my work. There are a lot of pathological skeptics out there and I need all the replications I can get. Liquid helium with or without a vacuum can crawl up the walls of a container. I have observed this phenomena with liquid nitrogen in air. Podkletnov got a 2 % change of weight of his test mass when it was not in a vacuum. Saxl got a 5 % increase in weight of torsion pendulum during a solar eclipse. De Aquino has observe a 63 % decrease in weight of a 35-kg torrus. These anomalies at least raise the possibility that the purpose of the "gravitational force is to resist the radial flow of heat." Starlight is almost as ubiquitous as the unseen and unfound dark matter is reputed to be. My theory can use this easily observed phenomena to possibly account for the recently found evidence that the universe is accelerating and that 70 % of it has to now exist in the vacuum. The mass-centric gravity theories are in deep trouble. They very give little insight as to how to produce gravity in the laboratory or how to comprehend the propulsion mechanism of a UFO. My temperature measures, which heat has a harder time conduction upwards as opposed to downwards, go a long way to prove my case that the gravitational force acts to resist the radial flow of heat in sphere. Carrying out this experiment is a lot easier to do than to attempt to see if a hollow sphere can use the gravitational force to resist the flow of heat. There has got to be somebody in this newsgroup that would be willing to carry out this simple experiment and which could open up the flood gates to a better way to view astronomy and cosmology as well as to provide a better way to go from A to B. Regards Peter Fred >Wouldn't the 2 results be the same? > > Well I have posited a reasonable explanation, and I still think you >have yet to rule convection out. We're talking a variation of fluid >dynamics here, and in some cases, depending on the shape of an object, >the kinds of forces experienced may change. So yes, different shapes may >yield different results. > The only real way to test would be in a vacuum chamber. > Also realize that flipping an object over is no proof, due to chance, >it may just be they yield the same effect. Ideally, one would test all >sorts of shapes, configurations, in air and in vacuum. >Peter Fred -- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 7 00:16:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA12712; Sun, 7 May 2000 00:15:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 00:15:22 -0700 Message-ID: <20000507071449.30633.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [63.27.227.138] From: "Timothy Flytch" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: simple solution sought... Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 00:14:49 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"pEs5Y3.0.X63.9WH5v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14945 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well sparky, Yes... I have an efficient air driven engine design that I'm trying to power... I have several Ideas such as; using it in a car, or a generator for home power ... But I have no idea as to what to use for creating the pressure to run it??? So I was hoping to get some brain storming type of Ideas from this list??? For some uses I can foresee the availability of all of these and for some only one or two may be even possible... This "air pressure engine" could easily be build to work with a very wide range of gases... Flammable or not...Or maybe even fluids??? But I am out of my field when it comes to generating pressure... So am seeking other to give simple ideas to see if it will at lest point me in one direction??? I know that for my current needs... The engine only needs about 3cfm @ 30 psi... Timothy... >The answer depends on many things. such as, how much pressure, how much >volume. Do you want it continuously or part time? Can you use electricity? >And so on. Maybe tell what you what you want to use it for. Also where you >live. Is there lots of sun light, do you have natural gas? what does it >cost? I do not think anyone can give you a answer with the information you >gave. >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Timothy Flytch" > > Even though this is not directly OU... I am seeking the cheapest and/or > > easiest way to produce gas pressure??? Steam generator/boiler??? Gas > > generator??? or??? > > > > Any and all opinions are welcome either on or off list > > Thank you, > > Timothy... ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 7 01:14:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA23504; Sun, 7 May 2000 01:13:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 01:13:53 -0700 Message-ID: <007801bfb7fb$97cafc40$44c8fea9@oemcomputer> From: "Anna M*" To: References: <000001bfb7ed$049885e0$27efffcc@default> Subject: Re: An increase in weight and antigravity Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 01:09:35 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"s4vyl2.0.9l5.1NI5v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14946 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Excuse me, but your theory is very much like that of David Dennard's claiming that light repulses gravity. I feel a bit disturbed by it. Are you both doing the same research or? Best Regards, Anna ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Fred" To: Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 11:25 PM Subject: RE: An increase in weight and antigravity > Is it just chance that my basic formula i.e. > > g(r) = (Q'/M)8 pi r > > can predict the surface gravity of earth and moon at above the 90 % level? > Is it just chance that the horizontal component of downward gravitational > force of the little ball can predict the force measured in a Cavendish > balance experiment at 92 % level in one case and at 87 % in an other? Is > it just chance that center-of-mass coordinates can predict the secular > advance of Mercury's perihelion at 97 % of the observed value? And a > modification of center-of-mass coordinates predict the secular advance of > Venus at 90 % and that of Earth at 83 %? (where GR can predict Venus at 98 % > and the Earth at 76 %). Are my temperature measures indicating that heat > can conduct better downwards as opposed to upwards just a random chance > event? > > With my theory I can marshal the arguments that the gravitational force acts > to resist the flow of heat into or out of a sphere? I perform two kinds of > experiments that indicate that this is so. With one of my experiments I use > heat to get an increase in weight. It is a rare thing that heat effects can > produce an increase in weight. Yet you feel justified to summarily reject > my results as just a random chance event. > > I am describing my work to this freenrg newsgroups with the hopes someone > will attempt to replicate my work. There are a lot of pathological skeptics > out there and I need all the replications I can get. > > Liquid helium with or without a vacuum can crawl up the walls of a > container. I have observed this phenomena with liquid nitrogen in air. > Podkletnov got a 2 % change of weight of his test mass when it was not in a > vacuum. Saxl got a 5 % increase in weight of torsion pendulum during a > solar eclipse. De Aquino has observe a 63 % decrease in weight of a 35-kg > torrus. These anomalies at least raise the possibility that the purpose of > the "gravitational force is to resist the radial flow of heat." > > Starlight is almost as ubiquitous as the unseen and unfound dark matter is > reputed to be. My theory can use this easily observed phenomena to possibly > account for the recently found evidence that the universe is accelerating > and that 70 % of it has to now exist in the vacuum. > > The mass-centric gravity theories are in deep trouble. They very give > little insight as to how to produce gravity in the laboratory or how to > comprehend the propulsion mechanism of a UFO. > > My temperature measures, which heat has a harder time conduction upwards as > opposed to downwards, go a long way to prove my case that the gravitational > force acts to resist the radial flow of heat in sphere. > > Carrying out this experiment is a lot easier to do than to attempt to see if > a hollow sphere can use the gravitational force to resist the flow of heat. > There has got to be somebody in this newsgroup that would be willing to > carry out this simple experiment and which could open up the flood gates to > a better way to view astronomy and cosmology as well as to provide a > better way to go from A to B. > > Regards > > Peter Fred > > > > >Wouldn't the 2 results be the same? > > > > Well I have posited a reasonable explanation, and I still think you > >have yet to rule convection out. We're talking a variation of fluid > >dynamics here, and in some cases, depending on the shape of an object, > >the kinds of forces experienced may change. So yes, different shapes may > >yield different results. > > The only real way to test would be in a vacuum chamber. > > Also realize that flipping an object over is no proof, due to chance, > >it may just be they yield the same effect. Ideally, one would test all > >sorts of shapes, configurations, in air and in vacuum. > >Peter Fred > > -- > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 7 05:00:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA25108; Sun, 7 May 2000 05:00:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 05:00:34 -0700 Message-ID: <39155A1A.D9FCD1E2@harti.com> Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 13:57:14 +0200 From: Stefan Hartmann Organization: Hartmann Multimedia Service X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [de]C-CCK-MCD QXW03200 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "jlnlabs@egroups.com" , "ou-builders@egroups.com" , Free Energy , Newman-L Mailing List Subject: Dennis Lee RealVideo clips, is it real ? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"gIduD.0.D86.YhL5v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14947 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, I just watched the more technical video clips in RealVideo Player from Dennis Lee: http://216.156.95.40/mike/Neg+coil.ram http://216.156.95.40/mike/nutrino.ram http://216.156.95.40/mike/Laser.ram How are they doing the negative power onb the bulb with just an oscillator circuit ? Is it some kind of phase angle magic, so they fool the poer meter or are they really drawing real power and somehow reflecting it back to the grid ?? How does this nutrino rod battery work ? How do they do the laser camera ? Is this for real or are these just tricks ?? Here are 2 other longer shows of him. He is a pretty good speaker, but I would not yet buy anything from him... If it is all for real, one should probably wait, until the products are sold on the markets and not just sign up a "spooky" dealership.. http://216.156.95.40/mike/Tech1ram.ram http://216.156.95.40/mike/Tech2ram.ram P.S.: Just start these URLs directly in your RealVideo Player under Open URL. -- Best regards, Stefan Hartmann. -- Hartmann Multimedia Service, Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498 email: harti@harti.com info@ccard.net http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB ! From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 7 05:52:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA09011; Sun, 7 May 2000 05:52:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 05:52:13 -0700 Message-ID: <39156635.4A5C6CF@harti.com> Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 14:48:53 +0200 From: Stefan Hartmann Organization: Hartmann Multimedia Service X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [de]C-CCK-MCD QXW03200 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "jlnlabs@egroups.com" , Free Energy , Newman-L Mailing List , "ou-builders@egroups.com" Subject: Dennis Lee Tesla coil power transfer ? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"C6Ooj.0.dC2.yRM5v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14948 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, at: http://216.156.95.40/mike/Neg+coil.ram they also show a Tesla coil sending power to a receiver. Is this just done via the One wire Avramenko plug or how do they do it ? -- Best regards, Stefan Hartmann. -- Hartmann Multimedia Service, Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498 email: harti@harti.com info@ccard.net http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB ! From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 7 06:02:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA12616; Sun, 7 May 2000 06:01:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 06:01:45 -0700 Message-ID: <002d01bfb824$7e042ec0$b28ca7ca@globalfreeway.com.au> From: "John Conran" To: References: <39102EFB.C2BF518E@csrlink.net> Subject: Re: Water Car Links Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 23:02:24 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002A_01BFB878.4ED60B60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"sGekD.0.w43.uaM5v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14949 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BFB878.4ED60B60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What the hell does a hollow Earth theory have to do with free energy. Is it somehow plugged in from the outside? mandrake ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mike Johnston=20 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2000 11:51 PM Subject: Water Car Links http://www.s-line.de/homepages/keppler/impressum.html (german)=20 http://www.s-line.de/homepages/keppler/2frame.htm (English)=20 ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BFB878.4ED60B60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

What the hell does a hollow Earth theory have to do with free = energy.
 
Is it somehow plugged in from the outside?
 
mandrake
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Mike = Johnston=20
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2000 = 11:51=20 PM
Subject: Water Car Links

 http= ://www.s-line.de/homepages/keppler/impressum.html =20 (german)=20

http://www.s-l= ine.de/homepages/keppler/2frame.htm =20 (English)

------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BFB878.4ED60B60-- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 7 07:34:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA10658; Sun, 7 May 2000 07:34:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 07:34:12 -0700 From: "Peter Fred" To: Subject: RE: An increase in weight and antigravity Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 10:31:34 -0400 Message-ID: <000201bfb830$f23eb4c0$79efffcc@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <007801bfb7fb$97cafc40$44c8fea9@oemcomputer> Resent-Message-ID: <"Z1Za81.0.Pc2.ZxN5v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14950 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Anna M* [mailto:pantheon@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 4:10 AM To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: An increase in weight and antigravity Excuse me, but your theory is very much like that of David Dennard's claiming that light repulses gravity. I feel a bit disturbed by it. Are you both doing the same research or? Best Regards, Anna I believe my theory is a lot different than David Dennard's. Like me, however, I believe he is not a trained theoretical physicists. It is my belief that the person who comes up with a theory that successfully challenges the in-place, mass-centric gravity theory of Newton and Einstein will not be a Ph.D. in physics or astronomy. I take it as no accident that both Copernicus and Darwin were amateurs. I believe that a theory that successfully challenges the in-place theory must be built up on new enlightened fundamentals. Once these are selected it takes years to discover their implications. Also I believe that it is too hard on the ego for a Ph.D. to come to grips with the possibility that all that knowledge that he has paid good money and given many years to learn is useless. I have completed all the course work for a Ph.D. in psychological statistics. I had every reason to realize that what I had learned was practically useless. But it took me ten years to finally do it. It was then, after this period was over, that I then decided to start over again and build a new theory up from basics. >From what little I know of D. Dennard's theory it champions the whirlpool. My theory only deals with light in a secondary way. What I concentrate on with my theory is heat flowing through a sphere in the steady state. This heat, as with the planets, is derived from light that comes from the sun. Or to put it another way my theory deals with conduction not radiation. Radiation is just a means to produce the conduction in a body like a planet whose radiogenic heat or thermonuclear heat is comparatively very low. With my theory I able to put my money where my mouth is. I can demonstrate it in the laboratory. Making heat flow through a sphere experimentally is a pretty simple thing to do. With my limited resources I believe I am just able to do this. - > Is it just chance that my basic formula i.e. > > g(r) = (Q'/M)8 pi r > > can predict the surface gravity of earth and moon at above the 90 % level? > Is it just chance that the horizontal component of downward gravitational > force of the little ball can predict the force measured in a Cavendish > balance experiment at 92 % level in one case and at 87 % in an other? Is > it just chance that center-of-mass coordinates can predict the secular > advance of Mercury's perihelion at 97 % of the observed value? And a > modification of center-of-mass coordinates predict the secular advance of > Venus at 90 % and that of Earth at 83 %? (where GR can predict Venus at 98 % >snip > I am describing my work to this freenrg newsgroups with the hopes someone > will attempt to replicate my work. There are a lot of pathological skeptics out there and I need all the replications I can get. > > g > Regards > > Peter Fred > > >http://members.iglou.com/nfred/ > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 7 10:10:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA06070; Sun, 7 May 2000 10:10:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 10:10:15 -0700 Message-ID: <3651091.957719383192.JavaMail.imail@magic.excite.com> Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 10:09:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Geoffrey Tilga To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Dennis Lee Tesla coil power transfer ? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 4.4.209.254 Resent-Message-ID: <"xdGbi.0.lU1.sDQ5v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14951 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi- I had the fortune to see Dennis Lee and his travelling road show personally in Rochester, NY about five years ago. If PT Barnum wanted an annex to his freak show for 'scientific' entertainment, this would be it... Inventor George Wiseman has documented material on this man, and he is completely right. www.eagle-research.com, email: wiseman@eagle-research.com I would take what I see here with a very large grain of salt. At his meeting, he was selling 'dealerships' for a supposed "free energy" device for twenty thousand dollars. To my knowlege, no one ever received a 'machine', or a penny for their franchise. The 'franchise' could be a thinly disguised securities offering in abstract legalese-it wonders me why the Securities and Exchange Comission has not nailed Lee for "selling" what amounts to unregistered securities. If it looks like a dog, barks like a dog, and bites like one-its a dog in spite of Jesuitical legalisms on the contract Mr. Lee offers you to sign with payment of your money... Large MultinationalCorporations engage in public disinformation and espionage(patent application theft,et.cetra) like nations do. Is Lee being protected for the reason that he is the best 'negative' advertising I have ever seen to broadcast the message to the uninformed public that 'alternative energy' research is a crackpot scheme not worthy of serious attention-like astrology and fortunetelling? This is a speculative hypothesis, but my relatives who are in the brokerage/accounting professions told me he was offering what amounted to the sale of unregistered securities, the 'franchise' being a thinly disguised legalism to disarm the fools who would buy into such perpetual promises... Anyway, this is my $.02 worth. What would PT Barnum think of my thinking this way? felis catus 5/07/2000 On Sun, 07 May 2000 14:48:53 +0200, freenrg-l@eskimo.com wrote: > Hi, > > at: > > http://216.156.95.40/mike/Neg+coil.ram > > they also show a Tesla coil sending > power to a receiver. > > Is this just done via the One wire Avramenko plug > or how do they do it ? > > -- > > Best regards, Stefan Hartmann. > -- > Hartmann Multimedia Service, > Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany > Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498 > email: harti@harti.com info@ccard.net > http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB ! > _______________________________________________________ Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 7 11:41:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA01308; Sun, 7 May 2000 11:40:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 11:40:41 -0700 Message-ID: <001701bfb852$db061060$bb9a10cf@drosigno> Reply-To: "David Rosignoli" From: "David Rosignoli" To: References: <3914B604.99A7371B@harti.com> Subject: Re: Troy Reed and Dennis Lee motors ?! Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 14:34:17 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"IqIs41.0.HK.eYR5v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14952 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > Does anybody have seen this bigger machine of Dennis Lee on one of his > recent shows ? > Is this somehow faked or does it really seem to work as claimed ? > (Does he still use any batteries in this machine to start it > or to drive it ??) > I saw Dennis Lee perform his shows on 2 occasions in Philadelphia. In the first instance, he was peddling the heat pump concept. For some reason, he later stopped that. He showed a rather large (my guess about 6' long by 3' wide) thermal panel, acting just like the coils in an air conditioner or refrigerator. However, he claims to have the "world's most efficient heat pump". When he attempted to operate a device (I don't remember what it was), it was only for a short time, and not very impressive. Dennis Lee has demo'ed a bunch of stuff, including lamps with rechargeable batteries, a tesla coil that coul illuminate a fluorescent lamp from 30 feet away, a Brown's Gas generator (this was a pretty cool device to see in operation) - including having him run his fingers into the flame quickly to see no harm would come to them, and a few other devices. Overall, nothing that Dennis Lee has presented has been all that impressive, with the possible exception of the Brown's Gas generator. He comes across sounding like a con man/self-prescribed evangelist. Personally, I wouldn't buy a thing from him. I've been disappointed to see his claims of converting cars and homes to this thermal pump concept go up in smoke. As far as the "Race to Zero Point" video is concerned, have you seen the segments on the Hutchison Effect? There have been segments on broadcast TV (i.e., TDC and FOX) that showed this effect. But, then again, it could be all faked. That's the problem with having no replications. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 7 19:55:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA02383; Sun, 7 May 2000 19:49:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 19:49:38 -0700 Message-ID: <39161DB1.E81DED3F@csrlink.net> Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 21:51:45 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Water Car Links References: <39102EFB.C2BF518E@csrlink.net> <002d01bfb824$7e042ec0$b28ca7ca@globalfreeway.com.au> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------4C7A10E9D9F8D00C6A9746C9" Resent-Message-ID: <"5AV513.0.8b.2jY5v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14953 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --------------4C7A10E9D9F8D00C6A9746C9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi John, Well, nothing. But on this gentleman's website there are pictures of the alleged water car from manilla. Those links were for his a) main page and b) his only english language page. MJ John Conran wrote: > What the hell does a hollow Earth theory have to do with free > energy. Is it somehow plugged in from the outside? mandrake > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mike Johnston > To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com > Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2000 11:51 PM > Subject: Water Car Links > http://www.s-line.de/homepages/keppler/impressum.html > (german) > > http://www.s-line.de/homepages/keppler/2frame.htm (English) > --------------4C7A10E9D9F8D00C6A9746C9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi John,
   Well, nothing. But on this gentleman's website there are pictures of the alleged water car from manilla. Those links were for his a) main page and b) his only english language page.
MJ

John Conran wrote:

What the hell does a hollow Earth theory have to do with free energy. Is it somehow plugged in from the outside? mandrake
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2000 11:51 PM
Subject: Water Car Links
  http://www.s-line.de/homepages/keppler/impressum.html  (german)

http://www.s-line.de/homepages/keppler/2frame.htm  (English)

--------------4C7A10E9D9F8D00C6A9746C9-- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 7 21:58:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA14773; Sun, 7 May 2000 21:58:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 21:58:05 -0700 Message-ID: <20000508045732.28120.qmail@web4405.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 21:57:32 -0700 (PDT) From: harvey norris Subject: jpeg files To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"SEGsE.0.gc3.Tba5v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14954 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A I know this sounds like a stupid question, because I've thought I seen it done before by others, but is it okay to send a jpeg file as mail on the discussion list? Appreciate a reply off list __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 8 00:36:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA14463; Mon, 8 May 2000 00:35:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 00:35:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20000508073502.30007.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [172.129.117.176] From: "Mehmet Boysal" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: sound waves could replace compressors! Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 01:35:02 MDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_26097dba_77226ba8$50c563b8" Resent-Message-ID: <"F1Ftg3.0.tX3.Bvc5v"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14955 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_26097dba_77226ba8$50c563b8 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed << Hi Timothy and all list members: Here is an answer to your quest Re: simple solution sought... I have been on the list its about 4 yrs. Its interesting to see how the creativity of the people flows and changes like the seasons of the year. Out of my very large collection of bookmarks here is a site that I found it very, very interesting, and I think you'll find it too, that deals "How to produce air pressure out of sound" This site its all about a sound to power invention and research that is already been done, but they won't allow it to go into the hands of common people. Here is a small clip from that website: Researchers in acoustics have long wondered whether sound waves could replace mechanical components in devices such as compressors, combustion engines, and pumps; now a team of researchers in Virginia has answered - with a very loud, YES! Below text belongs to attached picture, on this email: Acoustic compressors replace most of the mechanical parts in conventional compressors with standing sound waves. During one acoustic cycle, the pressure oscillates from high (red) to low (blue). In the first part of the cycle (upper image), low pressure in the narrow portion of the resonator closes the discharge (upper) valve and opens the intake (lower) valve. Allowing low-pressure gas into the resonator. In the second part of the cycle (lower image), high pressure in the narrow portion of the resonator closes the intake valve and allows high-pressure gas to flow through the discharge valve. Because they use no oil and have few moving parts, acoustic compressors are expected to be clean and reliable. Here is the address to that website: http://www.macrosonix.com/020098pt.htm Hey folks somebody got to do these experements, because we know that work id done and is for real. I hope some one can make the posible math about this resonant sound to mechanical energy conversion, it could be enormusly high overunity posibility.? Enjoy the site folks, and you Timothy, I hope you'll find it inspiring all these ideas... Mehmet.>> >From: "Timothy Flytch" >Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com >To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com >Subject: Re: simple solution sought... >Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 00:14:49 PDT > >Well sparky, >Yes... >I have an efficient air driven engine design that I'm trying to power... I >have several Ideas such as; using it in a car, or a generator for home >power ... But I have no idea as to what to use for creating the pressure to >run it??? So I was hoping to get some brain storming type of Ideas from >this >list??? For some uses I can foresee the availability of all of these and >for >some only one or two may be even possible... This "air pressure engine" >could easily be build to work with a very wide range of gases... Flammable >or not...Or maybe even fluids??? But I am out of my field when it comes to >generating pressure... So am seeking other to give simple ideas to see if >it >will at lest point me in one direction??? >I know that for my current needs... The engine only needs about 3cfm @ 30 >psi... > >Timothy... > >>The answer depends on many things. such as, how much pressure, how much >>volume. Do you want it continuously or part time? Can you use electricity? >>And so on. Maybe tell what you what you want to use it for. Also where you >>live. Is there lots of sun light, do you have natural gas? what does it >>cost? I do not think anyone can give you a answer with the information you >>gave. >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Timothy Flytch" > >> > Even though this is not directly OU... I am seeking the cheapest and/or >> > easiest way to produce gas pressure??? Steam generator/boiler??? Gas >> > generator??? or??? >> > >> > Any and all opinions are welcome either on or off list >> > Thank you, >> > Timothy... > >________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------=_NextPart_000_26097dba_77226ba8$50c563b8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="res-lows.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="res-lows.gif" R0lGODdh+gCWAPcAAP///8bGxkJCQpxra8alnJxrWq1zWqVzWpSEe617WqV7 WqVzSqVzQkIpCMa1nKWEUqV7Oca9raWESt7WxtbOrUI5EIRzCJyMELWlEHNr AK2lGLWtCLWtAK2lAKWlnJyclJSUjNbWxhgYEKWlAFJSACkpAKWtAIyUGIyc CHOEGHuUCGN7CFpzAHOUADlKAFqEGGNrWnN7awgQADFzABgxEEK1IRh7AAgp AGucY2OcWhiUCAhKAAh7ABAYECE5IQgQCBApEACMAABzAABSAAA5AAAYAAAI AACMCAB7CABSCIS1jEKlUggxEGu1exAxGDGtUjmlWgClMTGtWkKtaxClSjGt 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Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 03:18:39 MDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"VkYEQ3.0.YQ4.FQe5v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14956 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: <> >Hi All, >today I also saw the video tape: >"The race to zero point" > >There was shown the second prototype >running motor of Troy Reed. > >He started the motor by powering it with the 110 Volts AC grid >and then pulled the plug and then the motor went on >and then he powered a 110 Volts incand. bulb. >(Maybe around 50 to 100 Watts bulb). > >The motor-generator of him kept on turning and lighting up this bulb. >Unfortunately they did show this only pretty short time, maybe 10 >seconds, >so one could not see, if the motor would run down only to his flywheel >stored power... >But Troy said it would run on and he had it on a moveable table and >drove it around the room, so you could >see, that there was no hidden energy cell or cable around the table. >Unfortunately this report about this motor was pretty short on the tape. > >2. Then there was also shown Dennis Lee with a machine, I guess >it was a combination of a heat pump and a heat motor, that did run on >its own energy >by cooling down the environment and also lighting up a few bulbs coupled >to a generator. > >It also was only shown for a short segment, so there was not much >background info >given, but it did work. But I don´t know, if there was any battery used >still to power any part of the machine, >or if it really worked just by cooling down the environment as >claimed... > >Does anybody have seen this bigger machine of Dennis Lee on one of his >recent shows ? >Is this somehow faked or does it really seem to work as claimed ? >(Does he still use any batteries in this machine to start it >or to drive it ??) > >BTW, Joe Newman was also shown with a quite big FAN motor running a big >FAN blade >(almost I guess about 1 meter diameter !), >but it did run pretty slow and the input and output measurements again >were not very convincing. >Just his old DC and RF amperemeters and we know the RF current is not >producing any >heat inside the coil. So this was not such a good demo of Newman. > > >Well I will probably soon post a few clips out of this tape. >Stay tuned. > >-- > >Best regards, Stefan Hartmann. >-- >Hartmann Multimedia Service, >Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany >Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498 >email: harti@harti.com info@ccard.net >http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB ! > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 8 07:54:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA20987; Mon, 8 May 2000 07:54:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 07:54:10 -0700 Message-ID: <3916D440.1B92406D@harti.com> Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 16:50:40 +0200 From: Stefan Hartmann Organization: Hartmann Multimedia Service X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [de]C-CCK-MCD QXW03200 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Free Energy , Newman-L Mailing List , "ou-builders@egroups.com" , "jlnlabs@egroups.com" Subject: Dennis Lee fraud... X-Priority: 2 (High) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"xRhnB2.0.n75.HKj5v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14957 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, here are a few first hand reports of people I know from the web who have been there.... Also look into: http://www.phact.org/e/z/leelee.htm Yes, Dennis Lee seems to be just a sales man and seems not to have any idea of the technical functioning of his motors, at least, when it comes to electronics and physics.. He is just selling "snake oil" for the "dummies"... so beware ! If he really would have a free energy machine, he would already sell it after all those years. -------- Original Message -------- <> Dear Stephan; I have been involved in the BWT thing for about 5 years now and have never seen anything he has that worked. Some of the things do have merit and I have gone a long way in the pursuit of the low temperature phase change generator. However my unit is made to use ammonia as the heat conducting medium . I have this about 2/3 done but don't know when I'll get back to it . I have been very much involved in electronic healing therapies that work so good it is hard to get away from. You are welcome to any information I can give you. Best wishes Bob >Hi All, >today I also saw the video tape: >"The race to zero point" > > >2. Then there was also shown Dennis Lee with a machine, I guess >it was a combination of a heat pump and a heat motor, that did run on >its own energy >by cooling down the environment and also lighting up a few bulbs coupled >to a generator. > >It also was only shown for a short segment, so there was not much >background info >given, but it did work. But I don´t know, if there was any battery used >still to power any part of the machine, >or if it really worked just by cooling down the environment as >claimed... > >Does anybody have seen this bigger machine of Dennis Lee on one of his >recent shows ? >Is this somehow faked or does it really seem to work as claimed ? >(Does he still use any batteries in this machine to start it >or to drive it ??) > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 8 10:31:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA16472; Mon, 8 May 2000 10:30:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 10:30:13 -0700 MR-Received: by mta SOCCER; Relayed; Mon, 08 May 2000 13:29:06 -0400 (EDT) MR-Received: by mta GOSIP; Relayed; Mon, 08 May 2000 13:25:06 -0400 (EDT) Alternate-recipient: prohibited Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 12:41:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 Subject: Re: simple solution sought... In-reply-to: <20000507071449.30633.qmail@hotmail.com> To: freenrg-l Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Posting-date: Mon, 08 May 2000 13:29:00 -0400 (EDT) Importance: normal Priority: normal UA-content-id: E2672ZYLLJ9L7M X400-MTS-identifier: [;60923180500002/4709017@ODNVMS] A1-type: MAIL Hop-count: 2 Resent-Message-ID: <"5a4OF2.0.A14.acl5v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14958 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Timothy, A couple of cool off the wall sugestions for developing pressure. 1) Sublimating Dry Ice 2) Liquid Nitrogen and something I have always wanted to try 3) Small pieces of Sodium in water Bill webriggs@concentric.net Briggs@XLNsystems.com > Even though this is not directly OU... I am seeking the cheapest and/or > easiest way to produce gas pressure??? Steam generator/boiler??? Gas > generator??? or??? > > Any and all opinions are welcome either on or off list From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 8 14:49:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA10312; Mon, 8 May 2000 14:47:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 14:47:57 -0700 Message-ID: <3917351A.986331B8@harti.com> Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 23:43:54 +0200 From: Stefan Hartmann Organization: Hartmann Multimedia Service X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [de]C-CCK-MCD QXW03200 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: letters@forbesdigital.com, dchurbuck@forbes.com, sjohnson@forbes.com, rglitman@forbes.com, mnoer@forbes.com, keaches@forbes.com, deisenbacher@forbes.com, dsmith@forbes.com, "jlnlabs@egroups.com" , "ou-builders@egroups.com" , Free Energy , Newman-L Mailing List , eric@phact.org Subject: Nonsense Article... X-Priority: 1 (Highest) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"zygy63.0.-W2.COp5v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14959 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Re: The Alchemists Of Energy By Robert L. Park http://www.forbes.com/forbes/00/0515/6511117a.htm Robert L. Park has not the slightest notion of what he writes about. Better next time choose a better suited writer for this topic. I had a good laugh ! :) -- Best regards, Stefan Hartmann, c/o webmaster of www.overunity.com -- Hartmann Multimedia Service, Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498 email: harti@harti.com info@ccard.net http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB ! From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 8 17:44:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA24519; Mon, 8 May 2000 17:43:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 17:43:48 -0700 Message-ID: <20000509004315.3544.qmail@web4404.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 17:43:15 -0700 (PDT) From: harvey norris Subject: TEC Web Pages Update To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"fDjCi1.0.0_5.4zr5v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14960 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/LaGrangeLn/teslafy/Homepage.html (Tesla Electric Co) updated with l mwo scope form of two inductors delivering two different freq from the same magnetic field Snapshots in Time of a MWO Process Pg 1 http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/LaGrangeLn/teslafy/analomous.html shows attempts at rectification of scalar signal Uncohered Scope forms (AC Coupling) Pg 2 http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/LaGrangeLn/teslafy/Uncohered.html updated with scope form showing multi traces in attempt to create former MWO oscillations contains water discharge info from messageboard leading up to needle glow discharge exp. Hillbilly Scope Pictures/showing anomalous effects Pg 3 http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/LaGrangeLn/teslafy/anomolous.html updated with vhs player/digital interface scope form of estimated 21 high freq spikes/60 hz cycle, process driven at wall voltage input. This is how the mwo process is viewed on that time frame. An est. 3ms is left on its sweep on this pause frame shot. The coil system pictures are poor /these will be replaced when digital interface is back online. http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/LaGrangeLn/teslafy/PATRIOTICH.html Oscillations above and below potential Pg 4 I am quite sure these were taken with the inductor in the correct orientation to recieve magnetic flux change through space. It shows the interference effects of the longitudinal vibration on the conventional one. When the inductor is turned at 90 degrees to the conventional angle the signals move toward the zero potential axis to intersect producing a scalar form..The 4 shots show what is seen at different sweep rates with the inductor in the conventional orientation. Triple Capacity MWO Method http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/LaGrangeLn/teslafy/triple.html Pictures showing the newest MWO technique. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 9 11:48:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA09033; Tue, 9 May 2000 11:46:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 11:46:17 -0700 From: HLafonte@aol.com Message-ID: <94.41eb857.2649b6c3@aol.com> Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 14:45:23 EDT Subject: Bending metal and overunity? To: energy21@listbot.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, jlnlabs@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_94.41eb857.2649b6c3_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 102 Resent-Message-ID: <"YWV3d3.0.2D2.up56v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14961 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --part1_94.41eb857.2649b6c3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit See attached drawing, collapsing fields due to flux splitting, cause coils to increase attraction counter clockwise, but decrease attraction clockwise if switched on in proper sequence. Comments? 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ddpNjNbT5E3oc9yzLNy6RbpOOdNtrq6/RBRv/mbeIs9BmU5yTmd1Xmd2bmd3fmd4jmd5nmd6 zoiAAAA7 --part1_94.41eb857.2649b6c3_boundary-- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 9 22:47:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA14160; Tue, 9 May 2000 22:46:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 22:46:35 -0700 Message-ID: <002901bfba44$a98a0340$f9a270d1@markross> From: "sparky" To: References: Subject: Re: simple solution sought... Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 21:57:06 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"EsS2b3.0.4T3.wUF6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14962 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I tried the small piece of sodium in water about 1960. The sodium skated around on top of the water like crazy. Then it got redhot on the bottom. I was looking down at it in the pan of water and then the hydrogen and oxygen that was being released from the water blew up in my face making my whole face red. :P I would be VERY, VERY carful when doing this expirement. Caution! Do not put face over the expirement! I would wear goggles on if I were you! Do not do expirement unless crazy or young! And! Wear a helmet! d:o)) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Briggs 614-752-0199" To: "freenrg-l" Sent: Monday, May 08, 2000 8:41 AM Subject: Re: simple solution sought... > Timothy, > > A couple of cool off the wall sugestions for developing pressure. > > 1) Sublimating Dry Ice > 2) Liquid Nitrogen > > and something I have always wanted to try > > 3) Small pieces of Sodium in water > > Bill > webriggs@concentric.net > Briggs@XLNsystems.com > > > Even though this is not directly OU... I am seeking the cheapest and/or > > easiest way to produce gas pressure??? Steam generator/boiler??? Gas > > generator??? or??? > > > > Any and all opinions are welcome either on or off list > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 00:59:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA13374; Wed, 10 May 2000 00:58:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 00:58:46 -0700 Message-ID: <20000510075813.58728.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [63.27.227.96] From: "Timothy Flytch" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: simple solution sought... Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 00:58:12 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"vn9HS1.0.tG3.rQH6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14963 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >No, not table salt, pure metallic sodium Na. >A tiny bit in water: plop, POP, fizz fizz. >Too much: KABOOOOOOOOMMMMMM, your school starts taking bids for a new >science >wing to be built to fill in the hole in the ground where the old one was. >Bill #8^O Thanks for the help Bill, I think I'll leave that one alone though... even though it dose sound promising... %Seventeen isotopes of sodium are recognized. Metallic sodium is priced at about $250/kg (99.95%). On a volume basis, it is the %cheapest of all metals. Sodium metal should be handled with great care. It should be kept in an inert atmosphere and contact with %water and other substances with which sodium reacts should be avoided. All I have come up with is just steam... At home I can use a satellite dish antenna to make a simple steam boiler... Mobile I could use a kerosene steam generator... But I don't like the idea of having to wait 15 min just to run a five minute trip to the store... The only other thing I have come up with is a common air compressor... Not very efficient ... or is it??? I have not the experience to determine this... That is why I'm asking for help... I'm seeking the now... A real solution for the "car" I have on my drawing board right now... The frame/body is all composite... the running gear is from a gulf cart... the engine is a Tesla design... I'm not ashamed to say I'm over my head when it comes to generating pressure... But the car is easy... I have done this kind of work before while building aircraft... I just know, I do not! want to carry 200 lb of batteries, or any for that matter... Any and all help is greatly appreciated!!! Timothy... ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 02:30:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA31756; Wed, 10 May 2000 02:28:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 02:28:22 -0700 Message-ID: <39192AEB.E937F7AA@harti.com> Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:24:59 +0200 From: Stefan Hartmann Organization: Hartmann Multimedia Service X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [de]C-CCK-MCD QXW03200 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "jlnlabs@egroups.com" , Free Energy , Newman-L Mailing List , "ou-builders@egroups.com" Subject: Troy Reed contact ? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"S85G1.0.2m7.rkI6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14964 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi, does anyone has the phone number of Troy Reed from Oklahoma ? Some friends are in the USA in this moment and want to contact him and want to have a look at his new magnet motor. Please send a private email back. Thanks ! -- Best regards, Stefan Hartmann. -- Hartmann Multimedia Service, Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498 email: harti@harti.com info@ccard.net http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB ! From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 02:38:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA02677; Wed, 10 May 2000 02:36:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 02:36:47 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.20000510093815.008b6c34@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: vinny@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 05:38:15 -0400 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: Vinny Pinto Subject: Re: simple solution sought... Resent-Message-ID: <"NSoR41.0.kf.lsI6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14965 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Folks: When I was a kid (1950's), every hobby store sold sodium cannons. These were little cast iron gizmos with two chambers at the back. You put a small amount of pure sodium metal in one chamber, and water in the other, then packed a cannonball into the barrel on top of the two sealed chambers. You then pulled a string to allow the water and sodium in the two sealed chambers to mix, and BOOM! Wanna mention that sodium is so reactive that it is very caustic -- burns the skin easily! Sodium is rather dangerous to work with and to store! --Vinny At 09:57 PM 5/9/00 -0800, you wrote: >I tried the small piece of sodium in water about 1960. The sodium skated >around on top of the water like crazy. Then it got redhot on the bottom. I >was looking down at it in the pan of water and then the hydrogen and oxygen >that was being released from the water blew up in my face making my whole >face red. :P I would be VERY, VERY carful when doing this expirement. >Caution! Do not put face over the expirement! I would wear goggles on if I >were you! Do not do expirement unless crazy or young! And! Wear a helmet! >d:o)) >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Bill Briggs 614-752-0199" >To: "freenrg-l" >Sent: Monday, May 08, 2000 8:41 AM >Subject: Re: simple solution sought... > > >> Timothy, >> >> A couple of cool off the wall sugestions for developing pressure. >> >> 1) Sublimating Dry Ice >> 2) Liquid Nitrogen >> >> and something I have always wanted to try >> >> 3) Small pieces of Sodium in water >> >> Bill >> webriggs@concentric.net >> Briggs@XLNsystems.com >> >> > Even though this is not directly OU... I am seeking the cheapest and/or >> > easiest way to produce gas pressure??? Steam generator/boiler??? Gas >> > generator??? or??? >> > >> > Any and all opinions are welcome either on or off list >> > > Vinny Pinto vinny@mindspring.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 06:00:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA20786; Wed, 10 May 2000 05:59:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 05:59:08 -0700 Message-ID: <39194F7B.5B714C46@csrlink.net> Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 08:01:00 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: energy21 , "Michael S. Johnston" Subject: Re: Slavek's universe References: <20000506.220043.-136123.6.maxwell48@juno.com> <00e201bfb809$903d0dc0$44c8fea9@oemcomputer> <3915E23C.D4A2BBE9@sympatico.ca> <017001bfb8c6$fef57dc0$e8befea9@oemcomputer> <3917570F.88E96A95@sympatico.ca> <037d01bfb99c$142d19c0$86ccfea9@oemcompu ter> <39189D18.C0BB9BD3@sympatico.ca> <00ab01bfba55$882e85c0$e0cffea9@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4xSJo.0.h45.RqL6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14966 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi, Hopefully you won't mind my jumping in here for a moment. > I personally think that the basic code will dictate an universal pattern. If > > subatomic structures are crystalline, universe must have the same > properties. It may seem globular from the outside ( we are the outside > observers, remember ) > but it must be then stringy and crystalline inside. Did anyone read the story about there being much more magnetism present in interstellar space than was previously thought? This means that there is even more evidence that everything is energy. > > . > I am really impressed with your vision. > I see the universe from the outside as the spinning spiral in an orb. > Recycling itself indefiniatly. Yet flat and static in a perfect equilibrium. > Sort of a fountain. Sort of like an atom. Or individual atoms within an object. If there is a universal magnetic field then everything else must exist within that field and be a kind of expression of that greater field. You have first, the universal field, then galactic fields, then fields particular to a solar system within each galaxy, then fields particular to planets within each solar system, then fields belonging to objects on the planet such as the varying properties of the chemical elements, then each atom within each element is energetic in nature so the microcosm reflects the macrocosm.Hmmmm, I know that concept has been around for a while but I never thought of it like that before. By this logic then how can you work with energy with the existing methods? I mean electrodynamics provides formulas for working with individual electromagnetic fields but there is no such thing! Each field is only a concentrated expression of the greater field and if you don't take this into consideration you will always have flawed math which limits a limitless phenomenon. For example why don't permanent magnets wear out after you have drawn electricity from them? Because they are drawing directly from the universal field. Just a couple of thoughts MJ > > Anna > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Slavek Krepelka" > To: "energy21" > Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 4:19 PM > Subject: Re: Oxyhydrogen Corporation and Brown gas > > > energy21 - http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/1135 > > > > Hi Anna. > > > > Anna M* wrote: > > > > > energy21 - http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/1135 > > > > > > You may be right. How very simple! > > > The beehive Universe. Let's find the Queen mother now. > > > > I think you have misunderstood a bit. I do not claim that solar, galactic > and > > consequent structures can be crystalline, so to speak. It certainly does > not > > look like it from earth. > > > > > Slavek, I think you have discovered something > > > far greater than people are willing to admit. > > > > That is to be seen, but thanks. > > > > > The whole theory begs of course now more questions: > > > > It is not quite all. I have interrelated just about all known phenomena, > at > > least as known to me. Very simple. One just has to throw most > post-Newtonian > > explanation of whys into gutter. Math is OK, it works, although with > Constant > > fudge factors and Ideal gases, and Nonelastic collisions etc. The > correct > > key is Harmonics. Plain and simple "music" of the universe. > > > > > Is Universe flat and static then or expanding? > > > > Big Bang is philosophically insupportable, from these reasons. > > > > It created its own space and time, therefore there was no time and space > in > > which it could occur before it created them. Sort of chicken and egg. > > > > Negative numbers do not represent reality in a true sense. Electron is as > much > > matter as positron. Therefore both are, in their absolute value, a > positive > > existing phenomena. Negative numbers relate to debt. Ever since physicists > > borrowed this nonsense from bankers and accountants, the physics bogged > down. > > > > Universe is claimed to be some 13 bil. years old. Hubble can see that far > in any > > direction and sees generally the same universe 1 bil light years afar as > 13 bil. > > light years afar. Since the light from so far away came in here in 13 bil. > > years, the galaxies at that distance got there instantly, as there is not > time > > left in the calculation for their travel there from the original > singularity of > > BB. Also, such a scenario again places earth at the center of the > universe. > > > > This one is hard for most people, but the geometry of the expansion speeds > is > > wrong. Take an angle of lets say 5 degrees between two vectors of either > > accelerating or linear velocity, and you will realize that although the > rate of > > arrowheads travel away from their common source is same as rate between > the two > > arrowheads themselves, the speed at distance is entirely different in the > two > > directions. The geometry denies BB. > > > > The whole construct rests on Einstein's postulate of timelessness of a > photon. I > > would consider a postulate to be a rather weak proof, especially from a > man who > > was wrong with his practical explanations elsewhere as well. The photon is > a > > wave phenomenon and there is no known wave phenomenon (except for the > postulated > > photon) which would not tire down during its propagation. The arguments > against > > tired light like "there is not enough intergalactic dust, the dust would > scatter > > and diffuse the light" are funny. They do not take into consideration that > > photon propagates at the speed of its wave frequency ratio, therefore that > it > > possesses active wave, therefore that it measures time as much as anything > else. > > The thing is as valid clock as cesium crystal. Its time is its rate of > > propagation. When photon exits glass into air or vacuum, it actually > accelerates > > from a lower to a higher speed. Where does it take the energy to do so? > Where > > does that energy dissipate to? > > > > > Does it have the beginning? > > > > I seriously doubt it. What would be the reason? The law of energy > conservation > > says that universe is timeless in the duration of its existence. That Law > comes > > from experience. (Over unity falls under that law as well. Only that the > > orthodoxy is blind to the fact of what constitutes energy) > > > > > You know, it would take a lot to get used to the idea that atoms are not > > > round. > > > > But they are. They are stringy on magnetic level, but on el. force level, > they > > are composed of globes. Every quark pair retains helical el. force field, > which > > in its near center becomes dense and turbulent. The stringiness is the > structure > > of this turbulence, while the outer shell is globular. You could claim > > stringiness as well as globular structure. It depends on what part of > nucleon or > > a valence bond one concentrates, whether the magnetic or the electric. > > > > > The old model is so embedded in our minds, that I doubt whether > > > crystalline structured Universe could be even imagined with ease. > > > > Not necessarily universe, but definitely subatomic structures. By the way, > I > > would not be at all surprised if the universe came to crystaline structure > on a > > scale not comprehansible to us. But I have nothing to speculate on here. > > > > > Circle > > > seems much more natural because of the horizon effect. > > > > But the circle is still there. Even in the stringy part. That is why I > described > > it on a ping pong ball the way I did. > > > > > We have round planets, stars, moons, holes, you name it. > > > The sky above has a dome look and the earth looks round too. > > > Beehive demands the 3d visualization and you know that we can only see > in > > > 2d. > > > > This may seem like bragging Anna, but I am fitter by trade and I can see > not > > only three dimmensionally, but I can see those three dimmensions in their > > dynamic relations as well. I can run a steam engine in my head with all > its > > bells and whistles. You could actually call it four dimensionally. I can > run a > > moovie of a beehive in my head with my eyes open with the bees swarming > all over > > the honeycombs. There are quite few people who can do this. > > > > > But I like your proposition and have a feeling that this is going to be > the > > > new physics theory of the 21 century. After all , a circle limits, > while a > > > crystalline structure allows for unlimited growth. > > > > If it is correct, then it would be swell. If it is bull, then I'd rather > not see > > it there. > > > > > About Time Travel. > > > Such travel would be possible only into the past, at best to the moment > of > > > our birth. A person cannot travel to the past when he was not born yet. > > > And a future travel would have to take a traveler throughout the > countless > > > parallel universes. Very complicated. On a top of it, our atomic > structure > > > would not allow us to move at the speed contrary to our time spin. > > > We would have to drink first a tonic similar in the effects to the one > that > > > Dr. Jekyll took to become Mr. Hyde in order to change this electronic > spin > > > In one word, to change our bodily hydrogen to hydrino. Otherwise the > moment > > > we would begin the time travel, we would just fall apart. > > > > This is something I did not really speculate on, as I have my head full of > the > > energy phenomena problems. May be one of these days. > > > > > Thanks for your theory. I just send it to few other groups. I will send > you > > > the feedback when I get it. > > > > Thanks again. But I expect only silence and possibly slander. Anything > positive > > will be a bonus then. > > > > > BTW, how would you explain gravity and magnetism in your scenario? Are > they > > > the same then? > > > > They are not the same, but they are two different interactions of the > same. The > > magnetism is a chimera, sort of, as electric (Orgone) becomes magnetic at > > particular densities conditioned by prevalent direction of particular > > polarization of el. force. This reduces density of electric part which > again > > allows again greater density of magnetic. This is why magnetic interaction > is > > much stronger then electric. The magnetic also requires el. current in its > mass. > > Without it, magnetic does not happen. > > > > Gravitation is caused by strictly electric, without particular > polarization > > regards to its mass. This one is geometrically intermingled. (This is why > > magnetization of permanent magnets happens.) Newton has it in his > gravitational > > postulate: "All masses attract all other masses" etc. This can be > calculated in > > two ways, and the difference between these two ways and what really > somehow > > works spells out loud and clear that two gravitational fields shift toward > each > > other, carrying their masses along. It is a question of the Law of Action > and > > Reaction and a simple behavior of transverse waves when they intermingle. > I > > actually owe a credit to one Lee Pugh, who has come to similar conclusion > from a > > few letters exchanged between Faraday and Maxwell, and from some Ampers' > > write-up. How? Beats me. I knew about it on microscopic level at the time, > but > > he has brought it to my attention on macroscopic level. > > > > > Anna > > > > Snip. > > > > Regards Slavek. > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe, write to energy21-unsubscribe@listbot.com > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Advertisement: > > What kind of shoes do you want? Check out Zappos.com, the World's > > Largest Shoe Store, and get a FREE $10 GIFT CERTIFICATE. FREE > > shipping and no sales tax on all U.S. orders! > > http://www.listbot.com/links/zappos > > ______________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, write to energy21-unsubscribe@listbot.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Advertisement: > What kind of shoes do you want? Check out Zappos.com, the World's > Largest Shoe Store, and get a FREE $10 GIFT CERTIFICATE. FREE > shipping and no sales tax on all U.S. orders! > http://www.listbot.com/links/zappos From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 06:36:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA00945; Wed, 10 May 2000 06:36:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 06:36:05 -0700 Message-ID: <39195832.36F71003@csrlink.net> Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 08:38:13 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael S. Johnston" Subject: A device for you Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------87CFD5BFBD839BE328E25C90" Resent-Message-ID: <"bYjGD.0.dE.4NM6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14967 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --------------87CFD5BFBD839BE328E25C90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Here's a quickie perpetual motion device for y'all to debate on. MJ [Image] --------------87CFD5BFBD839BE328E25C90 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------F8DBCB966A8254822B9E990C" --------------F8DBCB966A8254822B9E990C Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi,
   Here's a quickie perpetual motion device for y'all to debate on.
MJ
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smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA08940; Wed, 10 May 2000 06:52:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 06:52:14 -0700 Message-ID: <00be01bfba86$5363d9e0$a59afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Anna M*" To: , "energy21" , "Michael S. Johnston" References: <20000506.220043.-136123.6.maxwell48@juno.com> <00e201bfb809$903d0dc0$44c8fea9@oemcomputer> <3915E23C.D4A2BBE9@sympatico.ca> <017001bfb8c6$fef57dc0$e8befea9@oemcomputer> <3917570F.88E96A95@sympatico.ca> <037d01bfb99c$142d19c0$86ccfea9@oemcompu ter> <39189D18.C0BB9BD3@sympatico.ca> <00ab01bfba55$882e85c0$e0cffea9@oemcomputer> <39194F7B.5B714C46@csrlink.net> Subject: Re: Slavek's universe Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 06:47:42 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"7EsNy3.0.WB2.DcM6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14968 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike, I think we are quite in agreement on this. You wrote: : > By this logic then how can you work with energy with the existing methods? I > mean electrodynamics provides formulas for working with individual > electromagnetic fields but there is no such thing! Each field is only a > concentrated expression of the greater field and if you don't take this into > consideration you will always have flawed math which limits a limitless > phenomenon. For example why don't permanent magnets wear out after you have > drawn electricity from them? Because they are drawing directly from the > universal field. Basically universe is holografic and each fragment, that means also our minds is an expression of totality. Crystalline structure is almost a must here, won't you agree? Anna From: "Mike Johnston" To: "energy21" ; "Michael S. Johnston" Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 5:01 AM Subject: Re: Slavek's universe > Hi, > Hopefully you won't mind my jumping in here for a moment. > > > > I personally think that the basic code will dictate an universal pattern. If > > > > subatomic structures are crystalline, universe must have the same > > properties. It may seem globular from the outside ( we are the outside > > observers, remember ) > > but it must be then stringy and crystalline inside. > > Did anyone read the story about there being much more magnetism present in > interstellar space than was previously thought? This means that there is even > more evidence that everything is energy. > > > > > . > > I am really impressed with your vision. > > I see the universe from the outside as the spinning spiral in an orb. > > Recycling itself indefiniatly. Yet flat and static in a perfect equilibrium. > > Sort of a fountain. > > Sort of like an atom. Or individual atoms within an object. If there is a > universal magnetic field then everything else must exist within that field and > be a kind of expression of that greater field. You have first, the universal > field, then galactic fields, then fields particular to a solar system within > each galaxy, then fields particular to planets within each solar system, then > fields belonging to objects on the planet such as the varying properties of the > chemical elements, then each atom within each element is energetic in nature so > the microcosm reflects the macrocosm.Hmmmm, I know that concept has been around > for a while but I never thought of it like that before. > By this logic then how can you work with energy with the existing methods? I > mean electrodynamics provides formulas for working with individual > electromagnetic fields but there is no such thing! Each field is only a > concentrated expression of the greater field and if you don't take this into > consideration you will always have flawed math which limits a limitless > phenomenon. For example why don't permanent magnets wear out after you have > drawn electricity from them? Because they are drawing directly from the > universal field. > Just a couple of thoughts > MJ > > > > > Anna > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Slavek Krepelka" > > To: "energy21" > > Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 4:19 PM > > Subject: Re: Oxyhydrogen Corporation and Brown gas > > > > > energy21 - http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/1135 > > > > > > Hi Anna. > > > > > > Anna M* wrote: > > > > > > > energy21 - http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/1135 > > > > > > > > You may be right. How very simple! > > > > The beehive Universe. Let's find the Queen mother now. > > > > > > I think you have misunderstood a bit. I do not claim that solar, galactic > > and > > > consequent structures can be crystalline, so to speak. It certainly does > > not > > > look like it from earth. > > > > > > > Slavek, I think you have discovered something > > > > far greater than people are willing to admit. > > > > > > That is to be seen, but thanks. > > > > > > > The whole theory begs of course now more questions: > > > > > > It is not quite all. I have interrelated just about all known phenomena, > > at > > > least as known to me. Very simple. One just has to throw most > > post-Newtonian > > > explanation of whys into gutter. Math is OK, it works, although with > > Constant > > > fudge factors and Ideal gases, and Nonelastic collisions etc. The > > correct > > > key is Harmonics. Plain and simple "music" of the universe. > > > > > > > Is Universe flat and static then or expanding? > > > > > > Big Bang is philosophically insupportable, from these reasons. > > > > > > It created its own space and time, therefore there was no time and space > > in > > > which it could occur before it created them. Sort of chicken and egg. > > > > > > Negative numbers do not represent reality in a true sense. Electron is as > > much > > > matter as positron. Therefore both are, in their absolute value, a > > positive > > > existing phenomena. Negative numbers relate to debt. Ever since physicists > > > borrowed this nonsense from bankers and accountants, the physics bogged > > down. > > > > > > Universe is claimed to be some 13 bil. years old. Hubble can see that far > > in any > > > direction and sees generally the same universe 1 bil light years afar as > > 13 bil. > > > light years afar. Since the light from so far away came in here in 13 bil. > > > years, the galaxies at that distance got there instantly, as there is not > > time > > > left in the calculation for their travel there from the original > > singularity of > > > BB. Also, such a scenario again places earth at the center of the > > universe. > > > > > > This one is hard for most people, but the geometry of the expansion speeds > > is > > > wrong. Take an angle of lets say 5 degrees between two vectors of either > > > accelerating or linear velocity, and you will realize that although the > > rate of > > > arrowheads travel away from their common source is same as rate between > > the two > > > arrowheads themselves, the speed at distance is entirely different in the > > two > > > directions. The geometry denies BB. > > > > > > The whole construct rests on Einstein's postulate of timelessness of a > > photon. I > > > would consider a postulate to be a rather weak proof, especially from a > > man who > > > was wrong with his practical explanations elsewhere as well. The photon is > > a > > > wave phenomenon and there is no known wave phenomenon (except for the > > postulated > > > photon) which would not tire down during its propagation. The arguments > > against > > > tired light like "there is not enough intergalactic dust, the dust would > > scatter > > > and diffuse the light" are funny. They do not take into consideration that > > > photon propagates at the speed of its wave frequency ratio, therefore that > > it > > > possesses active wave, therefore that it measures time as much as anything > > else. > > > The thing is as valid clock as cesium crystal. Its time is its rate of > > > propagation. When photon exits glass into air or vacuum, it actually > > accelerates > > > from a lower to a higher speed. Where does it take the energy to do so? > > Where > > > does that energy dissipate to? > > > > > > > Does it have the beginning? > > > > > > I seriously doubt it. What would be the reason? The law of energy > > conservation > > > says that universe is timeless in the duration of its existence. That Law > > comes > > > from experience. (Over unity falls under that law as well. Only that the > > > orthodoxy is blind to the fact of what constitutes energy) > > > > > > > You know, it would take a lot to get used to the idea that atoms are not > > > > round. > > > > > > But they are. They are stringy on magnetic level, but on el. force level, > > they > > > are composed of globes. Every quark pair retains helical el. force field, > > which > > > in its near center becomes dense and turbulent. The stringiness is the > > structure > > > of this turbulence, while the outer shell is globular. You could claim > > > stringiness as well as globular structure. It depends on what part of > > nucleon or > > > a valence bond one concentrates, whether the magnetic or the electric. > > > > > > > The old model is so embedded in our minds, that I doubt whether > > > > crystalline structured Universe could be even imagined with ease. > > > > > > Not necessarily universe, but definitely subatomic structures. By the way, > > I > > > would not be at all surprised if the universe came to crystaline structure > > on a > > > scale not comprehansible to us. But I have nothing to speculate on here. > > > > > > > Circle > > > > seems much more natural because of the horizon effect. > > > > > > But the circle is still there. Even in the stringy part. That is why I > > described > > > it on a ping pong ball the way I did. > > > > > > > We have round planets, stars, moons, holes, you name it. > > > > The sky above has a dome look and the earth looks round too. > > > > Beehive demands the 3d visualization and you know that we can only see > > in > > > > 2d. > > > > > > This may seem like bragging Anna, but I am fitter by trade and I can see > > not > > > only three dimmensionally, but I can see those three dimmensions in their > > > dynamic relations as well. I can run a steam engine in my head with all > > its > > > bells and whistles. You could actually call it four dimensionally. I can > > run a > > > moovie of a beehive in my head with my eyes open with the bees swarming > > all over > > > the honeycombs. There are quite few people who can do this. > > > > > > > But I like your proposition and have a feeling that this is going to be > > the > > > > new physics theory of the 21 century. After all , a circle limits, > > while a > > > > crystalline structure allows for unlimited growth. > > > > > > If it is correct, then it would be swell. If it is bull, then I'd rather > > not see > > > it there. > > > > > > > About Time Travel. > > > > Such travel would be possible only into the past, at best to the moment > > of > > > > our birth. A person cannot travel to the past when he was not born yet. > > > > And a future travel would have to take a traveler throughout the > > countless > > > > parallel universes. Very complicated. On a top of it, our atomic > > structure > > > > would not allow us to move at the speed contrary to our time spin. > > > > We would have to drink first a tonic similar in the effects to the one > > that > > > > Dr. Jekyll took to become Mr. Hyde in order to change this electronic > > spin > > > > In one word, to change our bodily hydrogen to hydrino. Otherwise the > > moment > > > > we would begin the time travel, we would just fall apart. > > > > > > This is something I did not really speculate on, as I have my head full of > > the > > > energy phenomena problems. May be one of these days. > > > > > > > Thanks for your theory. I just send it to few other groups. I will send > > you > > > > the feedback when I get it. > > > > > > Thanks again. But I expect only silence and possibly slander. Anything > > positive > > > will be a bonus then. > > > > > > > BTW, how would you explain gravity and magnetism in your scenario? Are > > they > > > > the same then? > > > > > > They are not the same, but they are two different interactions of the > > same. The > > > magnetism is a chimera, sort of, as electric (Orgone) becomes magnetic at > > > particular densities conditioned by prevalent direction of particular > > > polarization of el. force. This reduces density of electric part which > > again > > > allows again greater density of magnetic. This is why magnetic interaction > > is > > > much stronger then electric. The magnetic also requires el. current in its > > mass. > > > Without it, magnetic does not happen. > > > > > > Gravitation is caused by strictly electric, without particular > > polarization > > > regards to its mass. This one is geometrically intermingled. (This is why > > > magnetization of permanent magnets happens.) Newton has it in his > > gravitational > > > postulate: "All masses attract all other masses" etc. This can be > > calculated in > > > two ways, and the difference between these two ways and what really > > somehow > > > works spells out loud and clear that two gravitational fields shift toward > > each > > > other, carrying their masses along. It is a question of the Law of Action > > and > > > Reaction and a simple behavior of transverse waves when they intermingle. > > I > > > actually owe a credit to one Lee Pugh, who has come to similar conclusion > > from a > > > few letters exchanged between Faraday and Maxwell, and from some Ampers' > > > write-up. How? Beats me. I knew about it on microscopic level at the time, > > but > > > he has brought it to my attention on macroscopic level. > > > > > > > Anna > > > > > > Snip. > > > > > > Regards Slavek. > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > To unsubscribe, write to energy21-unsubscribe@listbot.com > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Advertisement: > > > What kind of shoes do you want? Check out Zappos.com, the World's > > > Largest Shoe Store, and get a FREE $10 GIFT CERTIFICATE. FREE > > > shipping and no sales tax on all U.S. orders! > > > http://www.listbot.com/links/zappos > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe, write to energy21-unsubscribe@listbot.com > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Advertisement: > > What kind of shoes do you want? Check out Zappos.com, the World's > > Largest Shoe Store, and get a FREE $10 GIFT CERTIFICATE. FREE > > shipping and no sales tax on all U.S. orders! > > http://www.listbot.com/links/zappos > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 09:48:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA20131; Wed, 10 May 2000 09:47:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 09:47:47 -0700 Message-ID: <001201bfba9f$353fc000$0a00a8c0@skot> From: "skot" To: "fr" Subject: Sam Garza Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 09:45:53 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Resent-Message-ID: <"FBKOa2.0.Sw4.pAP6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14971 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A You have a virus which is trying to use a 3D activex control in you signature ( it hit this list about two weeks ago ). Check your email signature. scottb From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 10:34:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA10884; Wed, 10 May 2000 10:33:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:33:15 -0700 From: UNIR2B1NM@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 13:31:09 EDT Subject: Water car inventor... To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com CC: alik@intergate.bc.ca (Alik S), bill@basselectronics.com, Charlie_Hodgson@s2systems.com (Charlie Hodgson), cliff_harris@earthlink.net (Cliff Harris), dachieri@theoffice.net (Dante Chierico), eadams1@pilot.infi.net (E. Adams), ellisrosser@mindspring.com, farmerbrow@webtv.net, gclayton@fly2.ca (Geraldine Clayton), gsawyer@dove.net.au (Glenville Sawyer), housed@indiana.edu (David House), jdo@ucalgary.ca (Jorg D. Ostrowski), jham@iahf.com, jkk@gwi.net (Jim Ketchum), johnhoffman@webtv.net, joowdrum@freewwweb.com.Jeffery.Lyn.Woodrum, LibbeyD@coned.com (Libbey,David G.), maplegrove@ckt.net (Dave Turcotte), MikeSeiler@aol.com, mjvenuto@cs.millersv.edu (Michael J. Venuto), mksboysal@hotmail.com (Mehmet Boysal), nichols@cybrtyme.com (David Nichols), nusara@samart.co.th (Nusara Ratanaprakarn), Patriot573@cs.com, rcsnyder@yahoo.com (Bob Snyder), richard@adnc.com, rocketrobert@home.com (Robert Moore), root@mail.bcsupernet.com (Patrick), shipent@wehandleit.com (Al Toth), the_beercan@yahoo.com, tim@polyhedra.com, thomas131@jps.net (Thomas), tsleber@info2000.net (Ted Leber), w9sz@prairienet.org (Zack Widup), wiltbank@facstaff.wisc.edu (John Wiltbank), yore@rsg.org (Pete Yore) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 101 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id KAA10279 Resent-Message-ID: <"wcUt7.0.sf2.RrP6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14972 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: (Mike Johnston), obtained the Water Car inventor's personal contacts: Dr. Ernesto S. Luis Industrial Technology Development Institute Development Science Bicutan Science Complex Taguig, Metro Manila, Philippines Fax 00632 - 837 3167 / 837 0032 Tel. - 837 2071 ...along with the following note: << It's difficult to get the rights, because Luis hasn't the money for an international patent, I think. >> Hi, Mike! I have a suggestion... I've recently attracted an amazing number and calibre of mechanics, machinists, engineers, partent holders, NASA scientists, etc. to the cause of *collectively* developing, sharing, and globally promulgating such potentially world-changing innovations UNIVERSALLY and FREELY! 100 years of bureaucratic/mega-corporate SUPRESSION of all who aspire to be the exclusive purveyors of such technologies (see the attached, George Wiseman's latest e-newsletter!) redounds to an inescapable conclusion: either we'll ALL have them, or NONE of us will. At issue is whether R & D participants might benefit *initially and directly*--vainly hoping for patents & royalties--or *indirectly and eventually*, when SOCIETY, on which all quality of life depends, has been GENERALLY improved by the technology. Free, universal disclosure of a gasoline reducing device is the only way to make it too big to suppress. The only way the inventor can enhance his own life--and that of his progeny--is to spark a spontaneous, broad-based, grass-roots effort to make the device available. Promulgating the design would effect such a MASS MOVEMENT through normal market forces, thereby: * depressing the PRICE of gasoline by reducing fuel demand, * de-funding a chief revenue resource for big, regulatory ‘government’ * reduce the concentration of wealth into the oil industry, whose bosses manipulate markets, legislation, and WARS, * balancing trade deficits with OPEC, * and OPENING THE WAY FOR ALTERNATIVE ENERGIES BY MAKING THE ALL-POWERFUL, ULTRA-CONSERVATIVE OIL INDUSTRY *LESS LUCRATIVE*; as well as: * lessening air pollution and * reversing the environmental release of petroleum effluents (thus reducing cancer rates and the need for pharmaceuticals, which are also made from petrochemicals). Inventors are either IGNORANT of the proven futility of seeking exclusivity for such technologies, or each thinks he'll be the first EXCEPTION...but the fact is thus: either the inventor will NEVER profit from his idea, or the WORLD might profit *immeasurably* from it. This makes it *unconscionable* to withold an idea or device of such global and historic portent. Therefore, whoever contacts this Phillipino gentleman--please suggest that the world has far too much at stake to *wait* for patent monies to be amassed, followed Big Brother's capricious decision as to whether & WHEN to grant a patent, followed by its *inevitable* exclusion from the market! NM, Russ Rosser UNIR2B1NM@aol.com (‘You & I are to be one in Him’) H) 256-546-5945 C).256-490-4158 c/o 304 Old Camp Rd. Gadsden AL 35904 From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 10:57:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA22113; Wed, 10 May 2000 10:56:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:56:27 -0700 Message-ID: <006901bfbaa9$2052cd40$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> From: "Sam Garza" To: References: <001201bfba9f$353fc000$0a00a8c0@skot> Subject: Re: Sam Garza Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 13:56:52 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Resent-Message-ID: <"5n9Xp.0.QP5.BBQ6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14973 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: How do I check my email signature? ----- Original Message ----- From: skot To: fr Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 12:45 PM Subject: Sam Garza > You have a virus which is trying to use a 3D activex control > in you signature ( it hit this list about two weeks ago ). > Check your email signature. > > scottb > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 11:06:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA27170; Wed, 10 May 2000 11:05:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:05:55 -0700 Reply-To: "Sparky" From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Freenrg-L" Cc: Subject: EVERYONE READ THIS! VIRUS SPREADING ON FREENRG Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 14:04:11 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"VK2cl.0.Le6.3KQ6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14974 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Look folks... An email virus is being spread on Freenrg-l. It's been pointed out by Skot, but no one seems to be paying attention. It continues to spread. The following people may still be infected. Anyone using Outlook on windows 95 who even clicked over the message and had it appear in the view pane (you didn't have to open it) is infected. Here are the names of people who posted material with the virus. Note that autoreplying to a message propagates the virus, although the replying party may not be infected. Sam Garza Mike Johnston John Conran Robert Michael Randall Patient Zero seems to be this guy Robert, billc9@prysm.net. I don't think this was done intentionally, but the result was that several people on this list are infected. It will continue to happen until we all take action. First, the virus seems to append itself as a signature. So diable that in outlook. Second, do not send html or reply with html. The payload seems to cause your computer to not boot on the first of the month after 5pm. If the virus keeps appearing, I will begin to contact the ISP's of the offending posters. If there was a guy on my street firing a gun in the air I'd call the cops, even if he wasn't pointing it at me... Here is the source code to the virus. I took the liberty of adding a few CR's to make it more ledgible. It will tell you all you need to know. Hey, did I mention how much this pisses me off? No? Ok, this pisses me off. Really. Virus Source Code. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 11:15:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA00759; Wed, 10 May 2000 11:14:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:14:31 -0700 Message-ID: <3919997C.F50AF7BB@csrlink.net> Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 13:16:44 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Sam Garza References: <001201bfba9f$353fc000$0a00a8c0@skot> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FFw52.0.mB.6SQ6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14975 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Skot, You are right. I got it back in the reply to my original post. I looked at it. I got a note from CORAL saying it was theWScript/kak.worm virus The page source on that post does have the kak in it. MJ skot wrote: > You have a virus which is trying to use a 3D activex control > in you signature ( it hit this list about two weeks ago ). > Check your email signature. > > scottb From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 11:58:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA23373; Wed, 10 May 2000 11:56:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:56:45 -0700 Message-ID: <3919A35F.694E1CFE@csrlink.net> Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 13:58:56 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "freenrg-l@eskimo.com" Subject: The Virus Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"X8vIV2.0.bi5.h3R6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14977 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, I sent the virus back in text form (so it's dead)but the red highlight didn't come through..sorry. At any rate it's pretty obvious where the virus parts are. Another weird thing happened. I got a "notice" from one CORAL@burr-brown.com warning me that I was infected with a virus. I sent a thank you note for the warning to that address and got an undeliverable/this person does not exist message back! I traced the path of that original CORAL message and found >From - Wed May 10 12:42:35 2000 Return-Path: Received: from u2.bbrown.com ([192.30.147.97]) by uplink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA12478 for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 12:45:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coral.bbrown.com by u2.bbrown.com with SMTP (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA09745; Wed, 10 May 2000 09:44:39 -0700 Received: by coral.bbrown.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.6 (890.1 7-16-1999)) id 072568DB.005C3DBC ; Wed, 10 May 2000 09:47:31 -0700 X-Lotus-Fromdomain: BB1 From: "CORAL" To: Mike Johnston Message-Id: <072568DB.005C3D3A.00@coral.bbrown.com> Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 09:47:29 -0700 Subject: Virus Report to Sender Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mozilla-Status: 8003 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: f06f58a0ca82f9b6b87140c12b59dd35 So there it is for what it's worth. I think that when you post text+html you get 2 copies of the virus per mail. MJ From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 12:28:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA06895; Wed, 10 May 2000 12:27:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 12:27:10 -0700 Message-ID: <004601bfbab5$776c5ae0$0a00a8c0@skot> From: "skot" To: Subject: Re: Sam Garza Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 12:25:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Resent-Message-ID: <"Au8NK1.0.Xh1.EWR6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14978 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm using outlook express, in the signature is in "Tools | Stationary" then the signature button. It may or may not be visible from there. If your Internet Explorer security is set to medium or higher it should not affect you. The setting which allows it to run is "Script ActiveX controls NOT marked safe for scripting" scottb -----Original Message----- From: Sam Garza To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 10:55 AM Subject: Re: Sam Garza >How do I check my email signature? > >----- Original Message ----- >From: skot >To: fr >Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 12:45 PM >Subject: Sam Garza > > >> You have a virus which is trying to use a 3D activex control >> in you signature ( it hit this list about two weeks ago ). >> Check your email signature. >> >> scottb >> >> > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 14:23:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA31625; Wed, 10 May 2000 14:21:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 14:21:10 -0700 From: HLafonte@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 16:57:46 EDT Subject: Solid state version flux splitter To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, energy21@listbot.com, jlnlabs@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_a6.428b184.264b274a_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 102 Resent-Message-ID: <"TiBZf.0.sj7.4BT6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14979 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --part1_a6.428b184.264b274a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit See attached solid state version. It's works on same basic principle as stated in last post. Thanks, Butch LaFonte --part1_a6.428b184.264b274a_boundary Content-Type: image/gif; name="solsplit.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="solsplit.gif" R0lGODlhJgJpAfcAAAAAAAAA//8AAP97e/+cnP+9vf////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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(8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA17158; Wed, 10 May 2000 14:53:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 14:53:55 -0700 Message-ID: <391A5756.F6F7ACE@layo.com> Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 23:46:46 -0700 From: Gerald Nefkens Organization: layo france X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sparky CC: Freenrg-L , billb@eskimo.com Subject: Re: EVERYONE READ THIS! VIRUS SPREADING ON FREENRG References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"QZJgJ3.0._B4.nfT6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14980 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi I have 12 partitions in W_98, all 2 Giga and are forbidden to use one of them (H:) by windows stating that the disk is full. Can that be caused by a virus ? I emptied it then reformated under Dos but it stays full the system says. Today another disk (partition I:) says the same ! Any ideas, norton and McCaffee dont find a thing Gerard France Keith Nagel wrote: > > Look folks... > > An email virus is being spread on Freenrg-l. It's been pointed out > by Skot, but no one seems to be paying attention. It continues to From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 15:36:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA06912; Wed, 10 May 2000 15:36:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 15:36:08 -0700 From: tgrimes1@juno.com To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 17:44:56 -0400 Subject: HTML & spread of virii Message-ID: <20000510.183229.-405123.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 5-11 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 Resent-Message-ID: <"vgN3H3.0.sh1.NHU6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14981 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Virii can be spread through HTML e-mails, as has been shown in this list. HTML e-mail is a nuisance not just for that reason, but for others that have already been presented on this list. It is not my intention to rehash the debate, the only important thing it that the consensus seemed to be that HTML e-mail posts are not kosher. So why can't everyone just post plain text messages?!?!? No HTML, no risk of infection. -Tom Grimes mailto:tgrimes1@juno.com ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 15:51:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA15015; Wed, 10 May 2000 15:50:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 15:50:58 -0700 From: "Ryan Schilder" To: Subject: RE: A device for you Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 17:53:33 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01BFBAA8.A8635F20" X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Importance: High In-Reply-To: <39195832.36F71003@csrlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: <"qaF7x.0.Tg3.HVU6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14982 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BFBAA8.A8635F20 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0007_01BFBAA8.A867F300" ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01BFBAA8.A867F300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't know if this message had an attachment (cause my NAV 2000 deleted it) but if it did, it contains the virus WScript.KakWorm . Check your system Its memory resident, stealth size and self-encrypting. Be careful Ryan -----Original Message----- From: Mike Johnston [mailto:enki@csrlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 5:38 AM To: Michael S. Johnston Subject: A device for you Hi, Here's a quickie perpetual motion device for y'all to debate on. MJ ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01BFBAA8.A867F300 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I = don't know if this=20 message had an attachment (cause my NAV 2000 deleted it) but if it did, = it=20 contains the virus WScript.KakWorm . Check your system Its memory = resident,=20 stealth size and self-encrypting. Be careful
 
Ryan
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Johnston=20 [mailto:enki@csrlink.net]
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 5:38 = AM
To: Michael S. Johnston
Subject: A device for=20 you

Hi,
   Here's a quickie = perpetual motion=20 device for y'all to debate on.
MJ
=
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iiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKK KKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooo oAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiig AooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKAP/9k= ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BFBAA8.A8635F20-- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 19:19:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA11902; Wed, 10 May 2000 19:19:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 19:19:13 -0700 Message-ID: <391A0B15.969C7B0A@csrlink.net> Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 21:21:25 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: HTML & spread of virii References: <20000510.183229.-405123.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"lxKbd2.0.tv2.XYX6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14983 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi, Good idea. I have converted to plain text. MJ tgrimes1@juno.com wrote: > > Virii can be spread through HTML e-mails, as has been shown in this > list. HTML e-mail is a nuisance not just for that reason, but for others > that have already been presented on this list. It is not my intention to > rehash the debate, the only important thing it that the consensus seemed > to be that HTML e-mail posts are not kosher. So why can't everyone just > post plain text messages?!?!? > > No HTML, no risk of infection. > > -Tom Grimes > > mailto:tgrimes1@juno.com > > ________________________________________________________________ > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 19:28:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA15899; Wed, 10 May 2000 19:27:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 19:27:24 -0700 Message-ID: <391A0D00.901EBF64@csrlink.net> Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 21:29:36 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: A device for you References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"yU1NW1.0.Fu3.BgX6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14984 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Ray, As far as I can tell the original DIDN'T have the virus but the reply I got and replied to did. I cut it out and can't find it anymore. Hopefully it's gone now. MJ > Ryan Schilder wrote: > > I don't know if this message had an attachment (cause my NAV 2000 > deleted it) but if it did, it contains the virus WScript.KakWorm . > Check your system Its memory resident, stealth size and > self-encrypting. Be careful > > Ryan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Johnston [mailto:enki@csrlink.net] > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 5:38 AM > To: Michael S. Johnston > Subject: A device for you > > Hi, > Here's a quickie perpetual motion device for y'all to > debate on. > MJ > [Image] From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 20:44:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA18059; Wed, 10 May 2000 20:43:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 20:43:42 -0700 From: "Alex P" To: Subject: Me ... Skeptical [re: supermpg cars] Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 23:50:58 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Disposition-Notification-To: "Alex P" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA18010 Resent-Message-ID: <"0ACFl1.0.3Q4.knY6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14987 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi all, I have been searching and searching ... reading archives upon archives of freenrg regarding the SuperMPG cars. The only some-what legitimate source that I have found was an article from Argosy (1977) talking about the Oglemobile. What I mean is that there was not good enough verification IMHO. Everything else, GEET et alli, seem to sell instructions and offer no solid evidence of their products working. I do apologize, I know this has been discussed in freenrg time and time again, but I am still at a loss. Has any one seen first-hand such a SuperMPG car? What I am going to do is buy a 1987 Caprice Classic and mod it. I'm not a master mechanic, but I am a quick learner and don't think I'd have difficulty doing this. Any suggestions as to what I need to do to achieve SuperMPG (i.e. 100+mpg). I'm willing to dump money into this project. Whose technology should I use? Does anyone have plans for the Ogle "box"? What about the success of the Pouge carb? I will, of course, document this project from start to finish on a web site. But I do need suggestions ... Thanks in Advance!!! Alex Papadimoulis Halogen Studios Entertainment From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 21:24:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA04005; Wed, 10 May 2000 21:24:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 21:24:15 -0700 Message-ID: <20000511042341.73063.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [63.28.94.138] From: "Timothy Flytch" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: HTML & spread of virii Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 21:23:40 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"gtiNJ3.0.Q-.kNZ6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14988 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: For one thing Tom... This is over my head... Can you define what is html and what is just plane text??? Or more to the point what could I be doing wrong??? Please??? This all make me feel like an idiot... But I just don't have any experience... And yes rip me apart... Use me as a bad example... maybe we will learn a little :) Timothy... > > Virii can be spread through HTML e-mails, as has been shown in this >list. HTML e-mail is a nuisance not just for that reason, but for others >that have already been presented on this list. It is not my intention to >rehash the debate, the only important thing it that the consensus seemed >to be that HTML e-mail posts are not kosher. So why can't everyone just >post plain text messages?!?!? > > No HTML, no risk of infection. > > -Tom Grimes > >mailto:tgrimes1@juno.com > >________________________________________________________________ >YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! >Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! >Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 23:27:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA06567; Wed, 10 May 2000 23:26:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 23:26:27 -0700 Reply-To: "Sparky" From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Freenrg-L" Subject: VIRUS ALERT! THE NAMES OF THE DAMNED Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 02:24:40 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"ff9BZ2.0.Wc1.GAb6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14990 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: These souls are amongst the lost... sparky [markross@xyz.net] Arlo Gingerich [arlo@mindless.com] Sam Garza [sgarza@americanengr.com] Mike Johnston [enki@csrlink.net] John Conran [drakeman@globalfreeway.com.au] Robert [billc9@prysm.net] Michael Randall [vrand01@earthlink.net] And who knows what others will follow their dreadful path to self destruction and hairy palms. So what part of "STOP SENDING THE FUCKING VIRUS TO THE LIST" don't you folks understand? K. PS: For those of you playing at home, try the Security tab under the Internet Options in the Control Panel, and disable or prompt scripting and active-x controls. Hmmm, now YOU dear reader can see it as well. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 06:22:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA10513; Thu, 11 May 2000 06:21:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 06:21:59 -0700 Message-ID: <005001bfbb4b$f6864840$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> From: "Sam Garza" To: References: <39195832.36F71003@csrlink.net> <003501bfba98$a1328060$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> <007101bfbaf7$093e0090$6bb87018@cr601605a> Subject: Re: A device for you (ACTIVE X) !!! Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 09:22:30 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Resent-Message-ID: <"wTK7e2.0.9a2.tFh6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14992 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a resend to see if I am catching on to the plain text method. How do you attach an active x control? All I did was reply to this email from Mike Johston. I noticed that an attachment was indicated by a paper clip but there was no attachment. Was the attachment invisible because it was a virus? ----- Original Message ----- From: Arlo Gingerich To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 11:14 PM Subject: Re: A device for you (ACTIVE X) !!! Please refrain from attaching ACTIVE X controls to your posts!! ----- Original Message ----- From: Sam Garza To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 11:58 AM Subject: Re: A device for you Have you made this quickie perpetual motion device and does it drip water across? Reason I am asking is that even though the water levels are not level the oil creates pressure so that the pressure at the bottom of each vessel should be the same. If that has anything to do with the water slide. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Johnston To: Michael S. Johnston Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 8:38 AM Subject: A device for you Hi, Here's a quickie perpetual motion device for y'all to debate on. MJ From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 09:12:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA01821; Thu, 11 May 2000 09:11:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 09:11:10 -0700 Message-ID: <382777003.958061462968.JavaMail.root@web431-mc.mail.com> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 12:11:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Goldes To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Me ... Skeptical [re: supermpg cars] CC: mjs@ap.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 207.44.219.207 Resent-Message-ID: <"wXAiu2.0.MS.Tkj6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14993 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tom Ogle was exposed as a fraud after years of conning people. Mark ------Original Message------ From: "Alex P" To: Sent: May 11, 2000 3:50:58 AM GMT Subject: Me ... Skeptical [re: supermpg cars] Hi all, I have been searching and searching ... reading archives upon archives of freenrg regarding the SuperMPG cars. The only some-what legitimate source that I have found was an article from Argosy (1977) talking about the Oglemobile. What I mean is that there was not good enough verification IMHO. Everything else, GEET et alli, seem to sell instructions and offer no solid evidence of their products working. I do apologize, I know this has been discussed in freenrg time and time again, but I am still at a loss. Has any one seen first-hand such a SuperMPG car? What I am going to do is buy a 1987 Caprice Classic and mod it. I'm not a master mechanic, but I am a quick learner and don't think I'd have difficulty doing this. Any suggestions as to what I need to do to achieve SuperMPG (i.e. 100+mpg). I'm willing to dump money into this project. Whose technology should I use? Does anyone have plans for the Ogle "box"? What about the success of the Pouge carb? I will, of course, document this project from start to finish on a web site. But I do need suggestions ... Thanks in Advance!!! Alex Papadimoulis Halogen Studios Entertainment ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 10:02:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA26746; Thu, 11 May 2000 10:01:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 10:01:35 -0700 From: UNIR2B1NM@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 13:00:49 EDT Subject: Re: Me ... Skeptical [re: supermpg cars] To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 101 Resent-Message-ID: <"9ESnM3.0.bX6.lTk6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14994 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 5/11/00 11:11:54 AM Central Daylight Time, mg3545@mail.com writes: << Tom Ogle was exposed as a fraud after years of conning people. >> Please divulge your evidence and warrant fir this conclusion. Tx. --Russ From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 11:40:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA09462; Thu, 11 May 2000 11:39:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 11:39:26 -0700 Message-ID: <385791447.958070355326.JavaMail.root@web303-mc.mail.com> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 14:39:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Goldes To: UNIR2B1NM@aol.com Subject: Re: Me ... Skeptical [re: supermpg cars] CC: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 207.44.219.226 Resent-Message-ID: <"3S_cE3.0.lJ2.Uvl6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14995 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Department of Transportation (DOT) had a project for some years evaluating claims such as Ogle's. As I recall he claimed a vapor carb with 200 mpg and was exposed by one of their investigations. I was on a talk show in San Francisco with the fellow who headed the program - it was back in the 1970's or early 80's and I can't recall his name. If you contact DOT in Washington DC they might be able to give you actual data. Under the Freedoom of Information Act, this sort of stuff is now available. Our firm tracked these kinds of claims looking for a breakthrough that was genuine. We never found any that were real. Most were inventors delusion, but we found a few that were fraudulant ourselves. Mark ------Original Message------ From: UNIR2B1NM@aol.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Sent: May 11, 2000 5:00:49 PM GMT Subject: Re: Me ... Skeptical [re: supermpg cars] In a message dated 5/11/00 11:11:54 AM Central Daylight Time, mg3545@mail.com writes: << Tom Ogle was exposed as a fraud after years of conning people. >> Please divulge your evidence and warrant fir this conclusion. Tx. --Russ ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 11:57:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA17720; Thu, 11 May 2000 11:56:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 11:56:20 -0700 From: UNIR2B1NM@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 14:47:42 EDT Subject: Water Car, gasoline, and $$. To: rocketrobert@home.com (Robert Moore) CC: alexp@halogenstudios.com (Alex P), alik@intergate.bc.ca (Alik S), bill@basselectronics.com, byronw@erols.com, Charlie_Hodgson@s2systems.com (Charlie Hodgson), cliff_harris@earthlink.net (Cliff Harris), dachieri@theoffice.net (Dante Chierico), dave.tingley@juno.com, eadams1@pilot.infi.net (E. Adams), ellisrosser@mindspring.com, farmerbrow@webtv.net, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, gclayton@fly2.ca (Geraldine Clayton), gsawyer@dove.net.au (Glenville Sawyer), housed@indiana.edu (David House), jackie@sweetliberty.com, jdo@ucalgary.ca (Jorg D. Ostrowski), jham@iahf.com, jkk@gwi.net (Jim Ketchum), johnhoffman@webtv.net, joowdrum@freewwweb.com.Jeffery.Lyn.Woodrum, knuke@lcia.com (Michael T Huffman), LibbeyD@coned.com (Libbey,David G.), maplegrove@ckt.net (Dave Turcotte), MikeSeiler@aol.com, mjvenuto@cs.millersv.edu (Michael J. Venuto), mksboysal@hotmail.com (Mehmet Boysal), nichols@cybrtyme.com (David Nichols), nusara@samart.co.th (Nusara Ratanaprakarn), Patriot573@cs.com, rcsnyder@yahoo.com (Bob Snyder), richard@adnc.com, root@mail.bcsupernet.com (Patrick), rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk), sgarza@americanengr.com (Sam Garza), shipent@wehandleit.com (Al Toth), the_beercan@yahoo.com, tim@polyhedra.com, thomas131@jps.net (Thomas), tsleber@info2000.net (Ted Leber), w9sz@prairienet.org (Zack Widup), wiltbank@facstaff.wisc.edu (John Wiltbank), yore@rsg.org (Pete Yore) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 101 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id LAA17218 Resent-Message-ID: <"23NZ5.0.aK4.I9m6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14996 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: << I saw a news story about the water car. I video taped the short story, it was video footage from the Phillipines and the inventor demonstrating the car. I might be able to help finance his project. >> So you received my email w/the inventor's personal contact info... My first question is whether this is a *retrofit* (electrolyzer; transformer, pulse generator, etc.) for *existing* engines, which is paramount for instigating a *mass movement*. If so, great--we can forget gasoline altogether! However, if it requires expensive & elaborate modifications or an entirely new engine--when a gas-powered alternative might be much more accessible--then *diverting* resources from the latter would violate my philosophy of putting FIRST THINGS FIRST, or TRANSITIONING from petrochemicals in *tenable* phases. A new water-toy for the elite won't upset NWO timetables because people won't become indignant if their gov'ts deprive them of something they can't afford anyway. We need to rally the global *mainstream* to demand their natural RIGHT to the full efficiency of the fuel they buy, by providing them a *simple & inexpensive* means of extracting that 100+ mpg efficiency! So WRT finances, pls remember our need of test eqpt. for empirically researching the 'cracking' gasoline w/ultrasound, and/or to help me accept the invitation to the ultrasonics lab in PA. If this methodology proved successful, the requisite device would be compact & self-contained, and require the least alterations of drivers' extant lifestyles & routines. NM, Russ Rosser UNIR2B1NM@aol.com (‘You & I are to be one in Him’) H) 256-546-5945 C).256-490-4158 c/o 304 Old Camp Rd. Gadsden AL 35904 From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 14:04:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA15641; Thu, 11 May 2000 14:03:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 14:03:17 -0700 From: tgrimes1@juno.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 16:42:57 -0400 Subject: Re: HTML & spread of virii Message-ID: <20000511.165944.-455621.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1,3-5,7,9-11,14-15,25-26,31-35 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 Resent-Message-ID: <"e6uYQ1.0.4q3.K0o6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14997 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 10 May 2000 21:23:40 PDT "Timothy Flytch" writes: > For one thing Tom... This is over my head... Can you define what is html and > what is just plane text??? Or more to the point what could I be doing > wrong??? Please??? > This all make me feel like an idiot... But I just don't have any experience... > And yes rip me apart... Use me as a bad example... maybe we will learn a > little :) NO, I'm NOT going to "rip you apart"! I don't even remember who introduced the virus in the first place, so I can't target anyone. Not only that, but I'm sure the introduction was unintentional. Plain text is like this message: no fancy fonts, no colors, no borders, etc. Just plain old letters, numbers, and symbols. HTML, on the other hand, can be considered a program in itself. It displays text, but it also can define special formatting and run script (which is how the virus can into being). Plain text is absolutely innocuous because it is all interpreted as data. HTML can spread virii because it can cause parts of the "message" to run on the host machine just like a program. HTML is not all bad, it is very useful in designing interactive documents, creating special effects, e-commerce, etc. However, it is not the most appropriate format for this list. Most e-mail programs (Internet Explorer, Netscape, Outlook, etc.) allow you to specify whether you want to send your e-mail in HTML or plain text format. Since I am not familiar with all programs, I cannot give explicit directions that will work with all of them. Usually, a little searching will reveal the right way to disable HTML. -Tom Grimes mailto:tgrimes1@juno.com ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 14:30:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA28009; Thu, 11 May 2000 14:29:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 14:29:18 -0700 From: HLafonte@aol.com Message-ID: <5f.51230b7.264c7ffb@aol.com> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 17:28:27 EDT Subject: Re: [jlnlabs] What is flux splitter? To: jlnlabs@egroups.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, energy21@listbot.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 102 Resent-Message-ID: <"KNy9O2.0.Or6.jOo6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14998 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 5/11/00 3:06:05 PM Central Daylight Time, herman@antioch-college.edu writes: > What is a "flux splitter"... please John, If you have seen the signal splitters on cable TV cables, well, this does the same thing to magnetic fields but in a different way. The device takes the magnetic field and divides it into two equal parts that take two separate paths. The "magnetic flux" first takes the path of less resistance and goes thru the iron bar that does not have the air gap. After the gap is closed the flux divides in half and goes in both directions around the iron loop. (See drawings) When the field starts to decrease in the first bar, the coil tries to maintain the field strength. I am forming bars now by hand for testing. Thanks, Butch From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 14:48:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA04549; Thu, 11 May 2000 14:47:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 14:47:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: bilb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 14:47:23 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: fr Subject: VIRUS HALTED: messages over 10K will bounce In-Reply-To: <001201bfba9f$353fc000$0a00a8c0@skot> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"9CltT2.0.-61.ufo6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14999 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To halt the spread of this Microsoft Email virus, I've set FREENRG-L to reject any message over 10K in size. The virus plus a message header is just a hair over 10K (and past messages have been over 15K). This is a temporary measure, since it will also reject long messages and small GIF/JPG attachments. I receive copies of the bounced messages, so I'll keep tabs on any new victims. Perhaps it would be a good idea to add a new FREENRG-L rule: no HTML messages. Use HTML only for private email. On a list service, one virus can spread to many people instantly. Also, HTML messages are at least twice as large as normal, which slows things down and bloats both the archives and your inbox. ................................freenrg-L.................................... William Beaty bilb@eskimo.com EE/Programmer/exhibit-designer/science-nerd Moderator: FREENRG-L VORTEX-L TAOSHUM-L WEBHEAD-L http://www.eskimo.com/~bilb/freenrgl/flist.html Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com voice:206-781-3320 From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 16:50:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA00750; Thu, 11 May 2000 16:49:10 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 16:49:10 -0700 (PDT) From: "Alex P" To: Subject: RE: Me ... Skeptical [re: supermpg cars] Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 19:56:19 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <385791447.958070355326.JavaMail.root@web303-mc.mail.com> Disposition-Notification-To: "Alex P" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id QAA00714 Resent-Message-ID: <"s5zqw.0.bB.pRq6v"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15000 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: So have you found *any* that are real? I'm trying to get a hold of RPI (Raptor-Tech.com), their product claims 1500% increase ... but who knows. Alex Papadimoulis Halogen Studios Entertainment alexp@halogenstudios.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Goldes [mailto:mg3545@mail.com] > Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 2:39 PM > To: UNIR2B1NM@aol.com > Cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Me ... Skeptical [re: supermpg cars] > > > The Department of Transportation (DOT) had a > project for some years > evaluating claims such as Ogle's. As I recall he > claimed a vapor carb with > 200 mpg and was exposed by one of their > investigations. I was on a talk > show in San Francisco with the fellow who headed > the program - it was back > in the 1970's or early 80's and I can't recall > his name. If you contact DOT > in Washington DC they might be able to give you > actual data. Under the > Freedoom of Information Act, this sort of stuff > is now available. Our firm > tracked these kinds of claims looking for a > breakthrough that was genuine. > We never found any that were real. Most were > inventors delusion, but we > found a few that were fraudulant ourselves. Mark From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 16:51:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA25985; Thu, 11 May 2000 16:50:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 16:50:49 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [jlnlabs] What is flux splitter? Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 09:49:55 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <1nhmhsgfelhjd637glapn7tisjl58n9oso@4ax.com> References: <5f.51230b7.264c7ffb@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <5f.51230b7.264c7ffb@aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA25912 Resent-Message-ID: <"n5zTP1.0.tL6.MTq6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15001 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 11 May 2000 17:28:27 EDT, HLafonte@aol.com wrote: [snip] >tries to maintain the field strength. I am forming bars now by hand for You don't happen to have been born on Krypton do you ;)? >testing. >Thanks, >Butch Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 17:25:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA09080; Thu, 11 May 2000 17:24:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 17:24:31 -0700 Message-Id: <200005120023.KAA08490@turbo.turboweb.net.au> X-Mailer: Eudora Pro 1.1 for Newton Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 19:32:00 +1000 To: "freenrg-l@eskimo.com" From: Allan Alderson Subject: Re: simple solution sought... Resent-Message-ID: <"r57yD.0.iD2._yq6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15002 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 10 May 2000 00:58:12 PDT, Timothy Flytch wrote: > >Any >and all help is greatly appreciated!! [snip] If you don't need too much pressure, try blowing up a large truck tyre to a couple hundred psi at a service-station. - Allan. ---- ---- ---- ---- Reply with a 'text-only' message. adsaa@turboweb.net.au From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 17:30:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA11269; Thu, 11 May 2000 17:30:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 17:30:10 -0700 Message-ID: <001701bfbba9$860c3f80$6bb87018@cr601605a> From: "Arlo Gingerich" To: Subject: test Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 20:32:16 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Resent-Message-ID: <"nPtZq.0.-l2.H2r6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15003 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: yes. it really is. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 18:29:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA02491; Thu, 11 May 2000 18:29:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 18:29:01 -0700 Message-ID: <008601bfbbb3$779a3c40$961b56c3@avd> From: "Aris" To: References: <20000510075813.58728.qmail@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: simple solution sought... Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 03:42:58 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"WUJ3I1.0.mc.Tvr6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15004 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > All I have come up with is just steam... At home I can use a satellite dish > antenna to make a simple steam boiler... I suppose, for making steam, you use a fluid which boils at a low temperature? Anyway how does this turbine look like? Maybe you can reverse it and use propellors to generate pressure. Perhaps a very good, cheap, clean and efficient alternative for current! Sounds interesting, so please tell me (us) more?! Regards, Aris. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 18:46:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA10042; Thu, 11 May 2000 18:45:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 18:45:10 -0700 Sender: crusoe@eskimo.com Message-ID: <391B0FD2.8C6E0E7A@worldnet.att.net> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 14:53:54 -0500 From: Daniel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14-15mdk i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: A device for you (ACTIVE X) !!! References: <39195832.36F71003@csrlink.net> <003501bfba98$a1328060$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> <007101bfbaf7$093e0090$6bb87018@cr601605a> <005001bfbb4b$f6864840$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"2e5wZ2.0.pS2.c8s6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15005 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sam Garza wrote: > > This is a resend to see if I am catching on to the plain text method. > How do you attach an active x control? All I did was reply to this email > from Mike Johston. I noticed that an attachment was indicated by a paper > clip but there was no attachment. Was the attachment invisible because it > was a virus? > MJ You're not sending the ActiveX component, the virus is.... That god I use Netscape on Linux.... ;) From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 20:54:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA27177; Thu, 11 May 2000 20:53:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 20:53:27 -0700 Message-ID: <391B72B0.4DA6D992@csrlink.net> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 22:55:44 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "freenrg-l@eskimo.com" Subject: the virus Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4Fz5Z3.0.Ye6.t0u6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15006 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You sent it again, as did arlo and sam. Quit RE:ing!!!! MJ From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 21:32:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA09150; Thu, 11 May 2000 21:31:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 21:31:26 -0700 Message-ID: <391B7B95.39B40372@csrlink.net> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 23:33:42 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jlnlabs Subject: Free Energy/Perpetual motion in one neat pkg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"KhLY33.0.tE2.Uau6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15007 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The idea is to make the concept of free energy accessible to everyone. This design isn't really free energy as it would conform to the conservation of energy principle but yet it should put out way more energy than what is required to run it. Even so it is something that anyone could build quite easily and inexpensively (in a small version). It consists of a series of water filled tanks which are suspended over each other. The quantity of water in the tanks could be whatever you want it to be. Imagine 8000 gallons per tank. The water drains from tank to tank. The rate at which it drains is controlled by the diameter of the pipe it feeds through. The water above the drain is the pressure head which does work. In this case it turns a turbine which is hooked to a generator. After the turbine the water pours onto a water wheel. We used the pressure head to turn the turbine. Now we use the weight of the water to turn the water wheel. The wheel is hooked up to another generator. For each tank in the series we have this setup. On the final one the water wheel supplies power to a suction pump at the top of the first tank. This sucks the water that is passing through the system back up into the top tank to go through again. The wheel that powers the pump can do so either electrically or mechanically. If you enclose the whole system to prevent the loss of water to evaporation it should run forever (or until the parts wear out. What do you think? MJ P.S. I'll email a diagram to anyone who wants one or you can see it in the archives section of my listbot list From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 21:59:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA18416; Thu, 11 May 2000 21:59:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 21:59:03 -0700 Sender: crusoe@eskimo.com Message-ID: <391B3D4F.AD110E20@worldnet.att.net> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 18:07:59 -0500 From: Daniel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14-15mdk i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Free Energy/Perpetual motion in one neat pkg References: <391B7B95.39B40372@csrlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"WBkYj.0.bV4.M-u6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15008 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: No it won't, each generator will consume some of the energy, and waste it as heat.... Slowly it will stop, and no longer turn... From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 22:11:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA23895; Thu, 11 May 2000 22:11:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 22:11:07 -0700 From: Keasy@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 01:10:25 EDT Subject: Re: Free Energy/Perpetual motion in one neat pkg To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 105 Resent-Message-ID: <"POGqt.0.Gr5.h9v6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15009 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 5/11/00 9:32:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time, enki@csrlink.net writes: > The idea is to > make the concept of free energy accessible to everyone. This > design > isn't really free energy as it would conform to the conservation > of > energy principle but yet it should put out way more energy than > what is > required to run it. > Even so it is something that anyone could build quite easily and > inexpensively (in a small version). > It consists of a series of water filled tanks which are > suspended > over each other. The quantity of water in the tanks could be > whatever > you want it to be. Imagine 8000 gallons per tank. The water drains > from > tank to tank. The rate at which it drains is controlled by the > diameter > of the pipe it feeds through. The water above the drain is the > pressure > head which does work. In this case it turns a turbine which is > hooked to > > a generator. > After the turbine the water pours onto a water wheel. We used > the > pressure head to turn the turbine. Now we use the weight of the > water to > > turn the water wheel. The wheel is hooked up to another generator. > For each tank in the series we have this setup. On the final > one the > water wheel supplies power to a suction pump at the top of the > first > tank. This sucks the water that is passing through the system back > up > into the top tank to go through again. The wheel that powers the > pump > can do so either electrically or mechanically. > If you enclose the whole system to prevent the loss of water to > evaporation it should run forever (or until the parts wear out. > What do you think? > MJ I don't mean to be a naysayer, but theory says the amount of power you get from all the gererators/turbines as the water goes down through the tanks is exactly the same as the power required to lift the water from the bottom back up to the top tank. So if there were no mechanical losses/friction of any kind it would run forever, but you would get no useful power out. Ken From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 22:47:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA02233; Thu, 11 May 2000 22:46:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 22:46:29 -0700 Message-ID: <20000512054552.1539.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [63.27.227.28] From: "Timothy Flytch" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: HTML & spread of virii Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 22:45:51 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"f6xQ73.0.oY.qgv6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15010 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thank you Tom, That helps :) >From: tgrimes1@juno.com >Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com >To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com >Subject: Re: HTML & spread of virii >Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 16:42:57 -0400 > >On Wed, 10 May 2000 21:23:40 PDT "Timothy Flytch" >writes: > > For one thing Tom... This is over my head... Can you define what is >html and > > what is just plane text??? Or more to the point what could I be doing > > wrong??? Please??? > > This all make me feel like an idiot... But I just don't have any >experience... > > And yes rip me apart... Use me as a bad example... maybe we will learn >a > > little :) > > NO, I'm NOT going to "rip you apart"! I don't even remember who >introduced the virus in the first place, so I can't target anyone. Not >only that, but I'm sure the introduction was unintentional. > > Plain text is like this message: no fancy fonts, no colors, no borders, >etc. Just plain old letters, numbers, and symbols. HTML, on the other >hand, can be considered a program in itself. It displays text, but it >also can define special formatting and run script (which is how the virus >can into being). Plain text is absolutely innocuous because it is all >interpreted as data. HTML can spread virii because it can cause parts of >the "message" to run on the host machine just like a program. HTML is >not all bad, it is very useful in designing interactive documents, >creating special effects, e-commerce, etc. However, it is not the most >appropriate format for this list. > > Most e-mail programs (Internet Explorer, Netscape, Outlook, etc.) allow >you to specify whether you want to send your e-mail in HTML or plain text >format. Since I am not familiar with all programs, I cannot give >explicit directions that will work with all of them. Usually, a little >searching will reveal the right way to disable HTML. > > -Tom Grimes > >mailto:tgrimes1@juno.com > >________________________________________________________________ >YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! >Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! >Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 23:20:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA10063; Thu, 11 May 2000 23:20:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 23:20:06 -0700 Message-ID: <20000512061918.79757.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [63.27.227.72] From: "Timothy Flytch" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: simple solution sought... Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 23:19:18 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"yzd1u.0.6T2.CAw6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15011 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From: Allan Alderson >On Wed, 10 May 2000 00:58:12 PDT, Timothy Flytch wrote: > > > >Any > >and all help is greatly appreciated!! > [snip] > >If you don't need too much pressure, try blowing up a large truck tyre to >a couple hundred psi at a service-station. > > - Allan. Thank you Allan... I thought of this... Most of the local(within 30 miles) service stations only go to 80psi... I did find one that is up to 160 psi... I have not ruled this out... maybe using a small gas powered pump as a long trip boost... But I would still have to fill the tank at home most of the time... I think if I stopped by my local gas station (there is only one in town) too much they would either charge me or stop offering air to the public :( Timothy... ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 00:37:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA27199; Fri, 12 May 2000 00:37:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 00:37:08 -0700 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Me ... Skeptical [re: supermpg cars] Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 03:50:38 -0400 Message-ID: <20000512075038218.AAA261@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"hlhWS.0.pe6.aIx6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15012 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mark writes: >The Department of Transportation (DOT) had a project for some years >evaluating claims such as Ogle's. As I recall he claimed a vapor carb with >200 mpg and was exposed by one of their investigations. I was on a talk >show in San Francisco with the fellow who headed the program - it was back >in the 1970's or early 80's and I can't recall his name. If you contact DOT >in Washington DC they might be able to give you actual data. Under the >Freedoom of Information Act, this sort of stuff is now available. Our firm >tracked these kinds of claims looking for a breakthrough that was genuine. >We never found any that were real. Most were inventors delusion, but we >found a few that were fraudulant ourselves. Mark Hi Mark, I notice that DOT hasn't shut down GEET or Wiseman's operation, in your opinion, is there something real there, or have you not had a chance to verify those yourself? Both seem to have quite a few testimonials from people. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 05:51:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA01606; Fri, 12 May 2000 05:50:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 05:50:32 -0700 Message-Id: <200005121251.e4CCpOc06410@bigbox.plug-in.com.br> From: "Marcelo Puhl" Organization: Computec Ltda To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 23:32:54 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: VIRUS HALTED: messages over 10K will bounce Reply-to: mark@plug-in.com.br Priority: normal References: <001201bfba9f$353fc000$0a00a8c0@skot> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12) Resent-Message-ID: <"aHg0f3.0.-O.Ou_6v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15013 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > Perhaps it would be a good idea to add a new FREENRG-L rule: no HTML > messages. Use HTML only for private email. On a list service, one virus > can spread to many people instantly. Also, HTML messages are at least > twice as large as normal, which slows things down and bloats both the > archives and your inbox. > B R A V O ! ! ! Marcelo Puhl mark@plug-in.com.br ------------------------------------------- Get paid to surf the WEB ! Ganhe dinheiro enquanto surfa na Internet ! http://alladvantage.com/go.asp?refid=DTJ608 ------------------------------------------- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 06:17:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA11442; Fri, 12 May 2000 06:17:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 06:17:11 -0700 Message-ID: <003701bfbc14$76ed6360$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> From: "Sam Garza" To: References: Subject: Re: Free Energy/Perpetual motion in one neat pkg Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 09:17:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Resent-Message-ID: <"0Jp1x3.0.do2.NH07v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15014 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There is one way this might work and that is to use what Victor Schauberger found out and that is that water will build tremendous momentum if allowed to spiral. Western traditional mechanical engineering has used pressure to generate speed but that is like sending water through a 1/4 mile drag strip everytime you want to have it work for you. Victor did something very interesting in that he found out what happened after the water went out the drain of a bathtub. It continues to twist. I have read where water turbines developed by him developed 3 times the power in 1/3 the space of our turbines. Let me explain the Physics principles behind his discoveries. First turbines are inertial engines by that I mean what speeds them up the best is the speed of the water striking the blades not pressure. Pressure speeds water up to get away from the pressure and if you allow the water time to accelerate before it hits the turbine blades a lot more work will be done by the turbine. Water moving at 30 feet a minute will do 3 times the work of water moving at 10 feet a minute. Now next principle. When water starts spiraling it accelerates inwardly. It develops centripetal force. Example-the water in the bathtub starts out in a larger circle and then as it accelerates it draws into a tighter circle until it is very tight and moving very fast in the direction of the whirlpool's point. Also as it develops speed it starts developing suction which makes the noise that scared all 6 of my children. Now one more thing this water will continue to accelerate if it goes through a pipe that has a tightening spiral shape. In fact the pipe has no resistance to flow in this shape. Now let me tell you a simple way to do this. Get a flat coil of copper tubing and pull it out into a spiral by just hanging on to the ends and pulling perpendicular to the slat coil like you were pulling a axle through the coil so that the coil could spin around the center. Like a Kudu antelope's horns. Now let the water run down this pipe and it will mo-o-o-ve. Then let it hit the turbine. Now next part of this system. You need a cheap turbine. Build a Tesla Turbine. It is just a bunch of flat plates with holes near the center with 1/16" spaces between the plates for exhaust which also by the way, while it is spinning, it has the water spiraling inwardly toward the exhaust. Alright lets go do it. First make a straight tube the length of the Kudu spiral tub and let water run down them and see the difference in water speed coming out the bottom then make the TT (Tesla Turbine). I am going to go do this. Yee Haw. Thanks for the idea. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 1:10 AM Subject: Re: Free Energy/Perpetual motion in one neat pkg > In a message dated 5/11/00 9:32:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time, enki@csrlink.net > writes: > > > The idea is to > > make the concept of free energy accessible to everyone. This > > design > > isn't really free energy as it would conform to the conservation > > of > > energy principle but yet it should put out way more energy than > > what is > > required to run it. > > Even so it is something that anyone could build quite easily and > > inexpensively (in a small version). > > It consists of a series of water filled tanks which are > > suspended > > over each other. The quantity of water in the tanks could be > > whatever > > you want it to be. Imagine 8000 gallons per tank. The water drains > > from > > tank to tank. The rate at which it drains is controlled by the > > diameter > > of the pipe it feeds through. The water above the drain is the > > pressure From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 08:18:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA05965; Fri, 12 May 2000 08:17:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 08:17:12 -0700 From: Charlie Hodgson Reply-To: Charlie_Hodgson@s2systems.com Organization: Society for Real Time To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Tesla Turbine Plans- where to get? (was: RE: Free Energy/Perpetual motion in one neat pkg) Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 11:30:34 -0400 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain References: <003701bfbc14$76ed6360$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> In-Reply-To: <003701bfbc14$76ed6360$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00051211300900.27502@cougar> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id IAA05889 Resent-Message-ID: <"TS2it3.0.-S1.t127v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15015 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 12 May 2000, Sam Garza wrote: > Now next part of this system. You need a cheap turbine. Build a > Tesla Turbine. It is just a bunch of flat plates with holes near the center > with 1/16" spaces between the plates for exhaust which also by the way, > while it is spinning, it has the water spiraling inwardly toward the > exhaust. Where can I get plans for the Tesla Turbine? Charlie From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 09:26:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA03307; Fri, 12 May 2000 09:25:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 09:25:41 -0700 MR-Received: by mta EUROPA; Relayed; Fri, 12 May 2000 12:24:24 -0400 (EDT) MR-Received: by mta GOSIP; Relayed; Fri, 12 May 2000 12:16:20 -0400 (EDT) Alternate-recipient: prohibited Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 12:14:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 Subject: Re: Me ... Skeptical [re: supermpg cars] In-reply-to: To: freenrg-l Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Posting-date: Fri, 12 May 2000 12:24:00 -0400 (EDT) Importance: normal Priority: normal UA-content-id: E2673ZYLPHQ3O2 X400-MTS-identifier: [;42422121500002/4724389@ODNVMS] A1-type: MAIL Hop-count: 2 Resent-Message-ID: <"Qequw1.0.ap.5237v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15016 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Alex, I am in a position to test some of these devices this summer. I am part owner in a business that sells & assembles kit cars, mostly the Hummer replicas. So I have insider access to an auto shop. I am arranging for a test vehicle, a full size 1992 Chevy pickup truck. I got on the Raptor Tech e-mailing list, they sent out what looks like an automatic reply that looks like this: Bill webriggs@concentric.net Briggs@XLNsystems.com ----------------------- Thank you for your interest in the Raptor Technologies Product line. I know the Web site is a little vague. We are still swimming through some red tape and as soon as possible we will post more detailed information. The Raptor products are not yet ready for shipping but are expected to ship some time this year. We are very exited about all of the tests so far. We have doubled, tripled and even quadrupled the gas mileage on the test vehicles. We will also have our products tested by one or more independent sources. Your Name and Email address will be added to our Contact Database (unless you request that it not be) and when we have more information we will send it right out to you. Thank you, Mont Tobiasson VP Raptor Technologies, Inc. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 09:57:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA17299; Fri, 12 May 2000 09:56:22 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 09:56:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <383722031.958150563625.JavaMail.root@web302-mc.mail.com> Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 12:56:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Goldes To: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman), freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Me ... Skeptical [re: supermpg cars] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 207.44.219.198 Resent-Message-ID: <"zH7S21.0.BE4.mU37v"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15017 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Knuke, DOT, insofar as I am aware, discontinued their program some years back. Our firm has not investigated either system. I just suggest healthy skepticism after all the claims we did check out - none of which survived careful tests and open minded evaluation. The most encouraging work was by inventor Jimmy Lee and his firm Zenion. His ionizing air cleaners and many other ion inventions are now sold by The Sharper Image. He holds several patents including one describing a system to ionize the air intake of an internal combustion engine. It is not simple, although it takes very little energy. He achieved more than 70 mpg on his wife's Chevy Nova before discovering the valves melted from the excess heat. Now that he is earning enough from his other inventions he will undoubtedly make his diesel engine version practical. He originally had it on a VW diesel pickup and got 130 mpg. However, the valves could not take the heat. He now backs the system way off to get a modest gain. The ionization also cleans the diesel exhaust remarkably well. Considering that a single diesel engine produces air pollution equivalent to 500 gasoline car engines, that is also an important achievement. Incidently, he was a protege of Townsend (TT) Brown, the father of ionization technology, and helped Brown eliminate the high ozone output which made impractical his ion fan - patented in 1928 - a fly would die from ozone if it flew one/third of the distance across the front of the fan. This is one of the keys to all of Jim's ion inventions. Mark Chairman & CEO Magnetic Power Inc. ------Original Message------ From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Sent: May 12, 2000 7:50:38 AM GMT Subject: Re: Me ... Skeptical [re: supermpg cars] Mark writes: >The Department of Transportation (DOT) had a project for some years >evaluating claims such as Ogle's. As I recall he claimed a vapor carb with >200 mpg and was exposed by one of their investigations. I was on a talk >show in San Francisco with the fellow who headed the program - it was back >in the 1970's or early 80's and I can't recall his name. If you contact DOT >in Washington DC they might be able to give you actual data. Under the >Freedoom of Information Act, this sort of stuff is now available. Our firm >tracked these kinds of claims looking for a breakthrough that was genuine. >We never found any that were real. Most were inventors delusion, but we >found a few that were fraudulant ourselves. Mark Hi Mark, I notice that DOT hasn't shut down GEET or Wiseman's operation, in your opinion, is there something real there, or have you not had a chance to verify those yourself? Both seem to have quite a few testimonials from people. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 10:00:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA20388; Fri, 12 May 2000 09:59:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 09:59:48 -0700 Message-ID: <385481572.958150776145.JavaMail.root@web312-mc.mail.com> Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 12:59:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Goldes To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Me ... Skeptical [re: supermpg cars] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 207.44.219.198 Resent-Message-ID: <"1Ae0I2.0.P-4.3Y37v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15018 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Never heard of Raptor... Mark ------Original Message------ From: "Alex P" To: Sent: May 11, 2000 11:56:19 PM GMT Subject: RE: Me ... Skeptical [re: supermpg cars] So have you found *any* that are real? I'm trying to get a hold of RPI (Raptor-Tech.com), their product claims 1500% increase ... but who knows. Alex Papadimoulis Halogen Studios Entertainment alexp@halogenstudios.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Goldes [mailto:mg3545@mail.com] > Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 2:39 PM > To: UNIR2B1NM@aol.com > Cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Me ... Skeptical [re: supermpg cars] > > > The Department of Transportation (DOT) had a > project for some years > evaluating claims such as Ogle's. As I recall he > claimed a vapor carb with > 200 mpg and was exposed by one of their > investigations. I was on a talk > show in San Francisco with the fellow who headed > the program - it was back > in the 1970's or early 80's and I can't recall > his name. If you contact DOT > in Washington DC they might be able to give you > actual data. Under the > Freedoom of Information Act, this sort of stuff > is now available. Our firm > tracked these kinds of claims looking for a > breakthrough that was genuine. > We never found any that were real. Most were > inventors delusion, but we > found a few that were fraudulant ourselves. Mark ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 11:30:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA30775; Fri, 12 May 2000 11:30:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 11:30:01 -0700 Message-ID: <20000512182926.72453.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [63.28.80.36] From: "Timothy Flytch" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: simple solution sought... Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 11:29:26 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"bPGbT1.0.iW7.ds47v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15019 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >I suppose, for making steam, you use a fluid which boils at a low >temperature? Thank you Aris, I had not thought of this... I had only thought of an open loop... What kind of fluid would you suggest??? >Anyway how does this turbine look like? Maybe you can reverse it and use >propellors to generate pressure. Perhaps a very good, cheap, clean and >efficient >alternative for current! Sounds interesting, so please tell me (us) more?! It is not tesla's turbine... but rather his simple reciprocating piston engine he used on his earthquake machine... The vehicle is a HPV/hybrid electric that I have been working on since 1992... Inclosed two seat three wheeler... My original design incorporated two small cobalt selenium motors... But I don't like the almost 100 lbs of batteries as it makes it hard to peddle... Timothy... ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 11:34:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA32643; Fri, 12 May 2000 11:34:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 11:34:37 -0700 From: HLafonte@aol.com Message-ID: <50.544526e.264da894@aol.com> Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 14:33:56 EDT Subject: Re:Flux Splitter Irons-Annealing (From Butch) To: jlnlabs@egroups.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 102 Resent-Message-ID: <"WDM2l1.0.yz7.yw47v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15020 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 5/12/00 8:48:54 AM Central Daylight Time, infinitenergy@hotmail.com writes: > Iron is of course still "magnetic" after it has been bent, and the actual > magnetic strength is not reduced much. It is the lesser known, dissipative > factor of coercivity that creeps up from behind and can sometimes cause > heating losses that are surprisingly large. Magnetically annealed iron is the > magnetic equivalent of purified copper in the electronic world. The energy > conductivity in either case is maximized, because the imperfections that > cause resistive waste are minimized. > > -Graham > Graham, Thanks for the post! I will include this process in my research and development. Regards, Butch LaFonte From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 11:46:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA06858; Fri, 12 May 2000 11:45:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 11:45:51 -0700 Message-ID: <002101bfbc42$62589860$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> From: "Sam Garza" To: References: <383722031.958150563625.JavaMail.root@web302-mc.mail.com> Subject: Mark Goldes Question Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 14:46:26 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Resent-Message-ID: <"10i9L2.0.3h1.V557v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15021 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: How could I get in touch with Jimmy Lee? ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Goldes To: Michael T Huffman ; Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 12:56 PM Subject: Re: Me ... Skeptical [re: supermpg cars] > Hi Knuke, > > DOT, insofar as I am aware, discontinued their program some years back. Our > firm has not investigated either system. I just suggest healthy skepticism > after all the claims we did check out - none of which survived careful tests > and open minded evaluation. > > The most encouraging work was by inventor Jimmy Lee and his firm Zenion. > His ionizing air cleaners and many other ion inventions are now sold by The > Sharper Image. He holds several patents including one describing a system > to ionize the air intake of an internal combustion engine. It is not > simple, although it takes very little energy. He achieved more than 70 mpg > on his wife's Chevy Nova before discovering the valves melted from the > excess heat. Now that he is earning enough from his other inventions he > will undoubtedly make his diesel engine version practical. He originally > had it on a VW diesel pickup and got 130 mpg. However, the valves could not > take the heat. He now backs the system way off to get a modest gain. The > ionization also cleans the diesel exhaust remarkably well. Considering that > a single diesel engine produces air pollution equivalent to 500 gasoline car > engines, that is also an important achievement. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 11:47:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA07975; Fri, 12 May 2000 11:47:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 11:47:05 -0700 From: "Kevin Weaver" To: Subject: RE: VIRUS HALTED: messages over 10K will bounce Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 13:45:12 -0500 Message-ID: <000201bfbc42$34966c40$0200a8c0@home> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"NBsxm1.0.Ly1.b657v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15022 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: William Beaty [mailto:bilb@eskimo.com] > Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 4:47 PM > To: fr > Subject: VIRUS HALTED: messages over 10K will bounce > > > > To halt the spread of this Microsoft Email virus, I've set FREENRG-L to > reject any message over 10K in size. The virus plus a message header is > just a hair over 10K (and past messages have been over 15K). This is a > temporary measure, since it will also reject long messages and small > GIF/JPG attachments. > > I receive copies of the bounced messages, so I'll keep tabs on any new > victims. > > Perhaps it would be a good idea to add a new FREENRG-L rule: no HTML > messages. Use HTML only for private email. On a list service, one virus > can spread to many people instantly. Also, HTML messages are at least > twice as large as normal, which slows things down and bloats both the > archives and your inbox. > > This is a good idea but could stop alot of messages. I think you can have the mail server strip any and all HTML "Hyper text markup language" from all e-mail running through the server w/o it bouncing any messages back. Alot of larger networks are doing this now days to prevent .vbs scripts and the such from entering there system. Sorry to bother and keep up the good work Kevin Weaver > ................................freenrg-L......................... > ........... > William Beaty bilb@eskimo.com > EE/Programmer/exhibit-designer/science-nerd > Moderator: FREENRG-L VORTEX-L TAOSHUM-L WEBHEAD-L > http://www.eskimo.com/~bilb/freenrgl/flist.html > Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com voice:206-781-3320 > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 12:13:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA20368; Fri, 12 May 2000 12:12:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 12:12:49 -0700 Message-ID: <391C4A26.5A4A2B55@csrlink.net> Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 14:15:02 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Free Energy/Perpetual motion in one neat pkg References: <391B7B95.39B40372@csrlink.net> <391B3D4F.AD110E20@worldnet.att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"IXG6R3.0.9-4.mU57v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15023 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Daniel, You must have misunderstood something. Daniel wrote: > > No it won't, each generator will consume some of the energy, and waste > it as heat.... Ok, but what energy do you mean? I'm talking about water flowing downhill. It's a gravity thing. > > Slowly it will stop, and no longer turn... You mean it will stop gravity from pulling the water downhill? Will it just levitate there then or fly off into space ? You really should look at the diagram. MJ From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 12:17:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA22846; Fri, 12 May 2000 12:17:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 12:17:01 -0700 Message-ID: <391C4B29.36A01BD3@csrlink.net> Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 14:19:21 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Free Energy/Perpetual motion in one neat pkg References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"qeHZN1.0.pa5.iY57v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15024 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Keasy, Well that is why I put the pump at the top. If you pump all of the air out of the pipe then air pressure forces the water up for you (Like a Barometer). Uses much less power than pumping up from the bottom. MJ Keasy@aol.com wrote: > I don't mean to be a naysayer, but theory says the amount of power you > get from all the gererators/turbines as the water goes down through the tanks > is exactly the same as the power required to lift the water from the bottom > back up to the top tank. > So if there were no mechanical losses/friction of any kind it would run > forever, but you would get no useful power out. > > > Ken From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 12:37:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA12865; Fri, 12 May 2000 12:36:07 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 12:36:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <391C4F87.89E39A01@csrlink.net> Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 14:37:59 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael S. Johnston" Subject: An Oxymoron For You Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"yqRLz.0.w83.bq57v"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15025 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, Q: What do you do for a living? A: I SELL FREE ENERGY devices. MJ From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 12:39:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA02778; Fri, 12 May 2000 12:38:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 12:38:34 -0700 Message-ID: <200005121437530870.01627158@mail.texas.net> In-Reply-To: <391C4A26.5A4A2B55@csrlink.net> References: <391B7B95.39B40372@csrlink.net> <391B3D4F.AD110E20@worldnet.att.net> <391C4A26.5A4A2B55@csrlink.net> X-Mailer: Calypso Version 2.40.41.05 Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 14:37:53 -0500 From: "Edwin Wise" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Free Energy/Perpetual motion in one neat pkg Resent-Message-ID: <"tkYXw1.0.Ih.vs57v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15026 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 5/12/00, at 2:15 PM, Mike Johnston wrote: > You must have misunderstood something. Nah, Daniel got it right. >Daniel wrote: >> >> No it won't, each generator will consume some of the energy, and waste >> it as heat.... > >Ok, but what energy do you mean? I'm talking about water flowing >downhill. It's a gravity thing. Gravity is adding energy to the system; that's what you are getting out from the generator. But, to make the water flow back "uphill" takes energy out. When you start this fluidic device, what is MOST likely to happen is... it will quickly reach a state of equilibrium and stop moving. Motion only comes through imbalance... and once the balance has been achieved, ultimately, motion stops. To get a perpetual state of imbalance, without pumping extra energy into the system to achieve it, is one goal of perpeutual motion... the impossible one. What is more likely to work is to find a source of energy that keeps the system moving; this is where the zero-point energy and other such cosmic "taps" come into play, and I think these guys have a much better chance of success. >> Slowly it will stop, and no longer turn... > >You mean it will stop gravity from pulling the water downhill? Will it >just levitate there then or fly off into space ? >You really should look at the diagram. Come now, of course not. But gravity is pulling the oil downhill, everything... and all of these pieces are trying to find their state of lowest energy... settling into a bowel, as it were. Edwin From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 13:06:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA13280; Fri, 12 May 2000 13:06:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 13:06:01 -0700 Message-ID: <391C569B.A6953A84@csrlink.net> Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 15:08:11 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Free Energy/Perpetual motion in one neat pkg References: <391B7B95.39B40372@csrlink.net> <391B3D4F.AD110E20@worldnet.att.net> <391C4A26.5A4A2B55@csrlink.net> <200005121437530870.01627158@mail.texas.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"zB5Uz1.0.PF3.eG67v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15027 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Edwin, OIl? What oil? Are we talking about the same thing here? The diagram with the oil and water was a desktop toy kind of thing. I mean the OTHER one I posted a description for with no diagram! Did you guys think I meant the oil/water thing? hahahahahah oh that's good! I'm sorry hehehe, no wonder you were talking that way, ok I get it now. The oil and water one was just a little experiment. I still have to make one when I get around to it. I thought maybe a couple drops of liquid dish detergent in the water to break the surface tension might help. MJ Edwin Wise wrote: > > On 5/12/00, at 2:15 PM, Mike Johnston wrote: > > > You must have misunderstood something. > > Nah, Daniel got it right. > > >Daniel wrote: > >> > >> No it won't, each generator will consume some of the energy, and > waste > >> it as heat.... > > > >Ok, but what energy do you mean? I'm talking about water flowing > >downhill. It's a gravity thing. > > Gravity is adding energy to the system; that's what you are getting out > from the generator. But, to make the water flow back "uphill" takes energy > out. When you start this fluidic device, what is MOST likely to happen > is... it will quickly reach a state of equilibrium and stop moving. > > Motion only comes through imbalance... and once the balance has been > achieved, ultimately, motion stops. To get a perpetual state of imbalance, > without pumping extra energy into the system to achieve it, is one goal of > perpeutual motion... the impossible one. What is more likely to work is to > find a source of energy that keeps the system moving; this is where the > zero-point energy and other such cosmic "taps" come into play, and I think > these guys have a much better chance of success. > > >> Slowly it will stop, and no longer turn... > > > >You mean it will stop gravity from pulling the water downhill? Will it > >just levitate there then or fly off into space ? > >You really should look at the diagram. > > Come now, of course not. But gravity is pulling the oil downhill, > everything... and all of these pieces are trying to find their state of > lowest energy... settling into a bowel, as it were. > > Edwin From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 13:11:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA15766; Fri, 12 May 2000 13:10:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 13:10:29 -0700 From: Keasy@aol.com Message-ID: <5a.513ab72.264dbf0a@aol.com> Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 16:09:46 EDT Subject: Re: Free Energy/Perpetual motion in one neat pkg To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 105 Resent-Message-ID: <"CgFdJ3.0.6s3.qK67v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15028 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 5/12/00 12:17:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time, enki@csrlink.net writes: > > Well that is why I put the pump at the top. If you pump all of the > air out of the pipe then air pressure forces the water up for you (Like > a Barometer). Uses much less power than pumping up from the bottom. > MJ > Sounds ok, but unfortunately theory says the work (or energy) required to lift water is m x g x h, where m x g is the weight and h is the height it is raised. That is the absolute minimum; any pump has losses and requires more. In the case of the pump at the top it requires just as much work to maintain a vacuum that raises the water as does to push the water up from the bottom. Ken From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 13:16:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA17993; Fri, 12 May 2000 13:15:14 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 13:15:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <003a01bfbc4e$d6f95a40$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> From: "Sam Garza" To: References: <391C4F87.89E39A01@csrlink.net> Subject: Re: An Oxymoron For You Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 16:15:38 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Resent-Message-ID: <"daBD7.0._O4.EP67v"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15029 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What kind of free energy devices? ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Johnston To: Michael S. Johnston Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 2:37 PM Subject: An Oxymoron For You > Hi All, > > Q: What do you do for a living? > > A: I SELL FREE ENERGY devices. > MJ > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 13:25:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA20001; Fri, 12 May 2000 13:23:13 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 13:23:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <005301bfbc4f$bfb658a0$b2d666ce@default> From: "Chris O'Barr" To: Subject: Re: Free Energy/Perpetual motion in one neat pkg Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 16:22:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"vt-kO3.0.Ju4.fW67v"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15030 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You could use gravity insead of a pump if you could get it to spin around on a fulcrum when all the water drained to the bottom. I can think of some ways to do this... but it wouldn't be free energy :-( -----Original Message----- From: Edwin Wise To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Friday, May 12, 2000 3:39 PM Subject: Re: Free Energy/Perpetual motion in one neat pkg > >On 5/12/00, at 2:15 PM, Mike Johnston wrote: > >> You must have misunderstood something. > >Nah, Daniel got it right. > >>Daniel wrote: >>> >>> No it won't, each generator will consume some of the energy, and >waste >>> it as heat.... >> >>Ok, but what energy do you mean? I'm talking about water flowing >>downhill. It's a gravity thing. > >Gravity is adding energy to the system; that's what you are getting out >from the generator. But, to make the water flow back "uphill" takes energy >out. When you start this fluidic device, what is MOST likely to happen >is... it will quickly reach a state of equilibrium and stop moving. > >Motion only comes through imbalance... and once the balance has been >achieved, ultimately, motion stops. To get a perpetual state of imbalance, >without pumping extra energy into the system to achieve it, is one goal of >perpeutual motion... the impossible one. What is more likely to work is to >find a source of energy that keeps the system moving; this is where the >zero-point energy and other such cosmic "taps" come into play, and I think >these guys have a much better chance of success. > >>> Slowly it will stop, and no longer turn... >> >>You mean it will stop gravity from pulling the water downhill? Will it >>just levitate there then or fly off into space ? >>You really should look at the diagram. > >Come now, of course not. But gravity is pulling the oil downhill, >everything... and all of these pieces are trying to find their state of >lowest energy... settling into a bowel, as it were. > >Edwin > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 13:32:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA24686; Fri, 12 May 2000 13:30:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 13:30:37 -0700 Message-ID: <200005121529440360.000FF80B@mail.texas.net> In-Reply-To: <003a01bfbc4e$d6f95a40$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> References: <391C4F87.89E39A01@csrlink.net> <003a01bfbc4e$d6f95a40$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> X-Mailer: Calypso Version 2.40.41.05 Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 15:29:44 -0500 From: "Edwin Wise" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: An Oxymoron For You Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Resent-Message-ID: <"4EqGN1.0.d16.jd67v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15031 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 5/12/00, at 4:15 PM, Sam Garza wrote: >What kind of free energy devices? Apparently, the type you have to pay for! >----- Original Message ----- >From: Mike Johnston >To: Michael S. Johnston >Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 2:37 PM >Subject: An Oxymoron For You > > >> Hi All, >> >> Q: What do you do for a living? >> >> A: I SELL FREE ENERGY devices. >> MJ >> From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 13:39:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA26169; Fri, 12 May 2000 13:38:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 13:38:49 -0700 Message-ID: <004501bfbc52$279cf080$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> From: "Sam Garza" To: References: <5a.513ab72.264dbf0a@aol.com> Subject: Re: Free Energy/Perpetual motion in one neat pkg Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 16:39:21 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Resent-Message-ID: <"7rISm1.0.bO6.Ol67v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15032 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I understand where you are coming from I was a Physics major in college. But I have a question for you where does a magnet get its energy to lift heavy iron objects? The answer is from the zero point or the ether which ever you prefer. Now where does water get the energy to spiral inwards while accelerating again the answer is the zpe. This is not perpetual motion this is a transducer that converts one form of energy into another. Tesla was told by his professor in Europe that he could not generate electricity from water through a water wheel as that was perpetual motion ha ha what a laugh. With Shauberger's transducer (the Kudu spiral) I think we got a shot. After all who lifted the water up from the ocean to flow down from the mountains? Sounds like perpetual motion to me, but it has been happening for almost 6000 years. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 4:09 PM Subject: Re: Free Energy/Perpetual motion in one neat pkg > In a message dated 5/12/00 12:17:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > enki@csrlink.net writes: > > > > > Well that is why I put the pump at the top. If you pump all of the > > air out of the pipe then air pressure forces the water up for you (Like > > a Barometer). Uses much less power than pumping up from the bottom. > > MJ > > > Sounds ok, but unfortunately theory says the work (or energy) required to > lift water is m x g x h, where m x g is the weight and h is the height it is > raised. That is the absolute minimum; any pump has losses and requires more. > In the case of the pump at the top it requires just as much work to maintain > a vacuum that raises the water as does to push the water up from the bottom. > > Ken > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 13:50:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA29949; Fri, 12 May 2000 13:49:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 13:49:25 -0700 Message-ID: <200005121548430130.0021590A@mail.texas.net> In-Reply-To: <004501bfbc52$279cf080$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> References: <5a.513ab72.264dbf0a@aol.com> <004501bfbc52$279cf080$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> X-Mailer: Calypso Version 2.40.41.05 Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 15:48:43 -0500 From: "Edwin Wise" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Free Energy/Perpetual motion in one neat pkg Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Resent-Message-ID: <"SljX_.0.rJ7.Lv67v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15033 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 5/12/00, at 4:39 PM, Sam Garza wrote: >I have a question for you where does a magnet get its energy to lift heavy >iron objects? Good damn question... but we *do* know it takes that same amount of energy to seperate them again; though there have been a number of clever systems that attempt to reduce the separation energy and maintain an imbalance. >accelerating again the answer is the zpe. This is not perpetual motion this >is a transducer that converts one form of energy into another. Tesla was Yup, transducers are the way to go; tapping in to the hidden mysteries of our universe, to squeeze it like a lemon. >all who lifted the water up from the ocean to flow down from the mountains? >Sounds like perpetual motion to me, but it has been happening for almost >6000 years. Umm, I would be willing to hazard a guess that water has been flowing in the evaporation and rainfall cycle a heck of a lot longer than 6,000 years. And... sunshine pumps this machine. It's like a giant nuclear battery feeding energy into the chaotic system that is our planet. Heck, you could call solar cells "free energy" systems... but in truth, they are just transducers such as mentioned above. Edwin From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 14:51:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA21964; Fri, 12 May 2000 14:50:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 14:50:14 -0700 Message-ID: <391CF967.ED2DC0C2@layo.com> Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 23:42:47 -0700 From: Gerald Nefkens Organization: layo france X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com CC: Robert Moore , Alex P , Alik S , bill@basselectronics.com, byronw@erols.com, Charlie Hodgson , Cliff Harris , Dante Chierico , dave.tingley@juno.com, "E. Adams" , ellisrosser@mindspring.com, farmerbrow@webtv.net, Geraldine Clayton , Glenville Sawyer , David House , jackie@sweetliberty.com, "Jorg D. Ostrowski" , jham@iahf.com, Jim Ketchum , johnhoffman@webtv.net, joowdrum@freewwweb.com.Jeffery.Lyn.Woodrum, Michael T Huffman , "Libbey,David G." , Dave Turcotte , MikeSeiler@aol.com, "Michael J. Venuto" , Mehmet Boysal , David Nichols , Nusara Ratanaprakarn , Patriot573@cs.com, Bob Snyder , richard@adnc.com, Patrick , Robin van Spaandonk , Sam Garza , Al Toth , the_beercan@yahoo.com, tim@polyhedra.com, Thomas , Ted Leber , Zack Widup , John Wiltbank , Pete Yore Subject: Re: Water Car, gasoline, and $$. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"fL1TV.0.0N5.Mo77v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15034 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi I wonder the 'inventor' did just what is explained on our site ! http://www.layo.com And more I wonder why he didn't inform us ! Gerard France UNIR2B1NM@aol.com wrote: > > << I saw a news story about the water car. I video taped the short > story, > it was video footage from the Phillipines and the inventor demonstrating > the car. I might be able to help finance his project. >> > > So you received my email w/the inventor's personal contact info... > > My first question is whether this is a *retrofit* (electrolyzer; transformer, > pulse generator, etc.) for *existing* engines, which is paramount for > instigating a *mass movement*. If so, great--we can forget gasoline > altogether! However, if it requires expensive & elaborate modifications or > an entirely new engine--when a gas-powered alternative might be much more > accessible--then *diverting* resources from the latter would violate my > philosophy of putting FIRST THINGS FIRST, or TRANSITIONING from > petrochemicals in *tenable* phases. A new water-toy for the elite won't > upset NWO timetables because people won't become indignant if their gov'ts > deprive them of something they can't afford anyway. We need to rally the > global *mainstream* to demand their natural RIGHT to the full efficiency of > the fuel they buy, by providing them a *simple & inexpensive* means of > extracting that 100+ mpg efficiency! So WRT finances, pls remember our need > of test eqpt. for empirically researching the 'cracking' gasoline > w/ultrasound, and/or to help me accept the invitation to the ultrasonics lab > in PA. If this methodology proved successful, the requisite device would be > compact & self-contained, and require the least alterations of drivers' > extant lifestyles & routines. > > NM, Russ Rosser > > UNIR2B1NM@aol.com (‘You & I are to be one in Him’) > > H) 256-546-5945 > C).256-490-4158 > > c/o 304 Old Camp Rd. > Gadsden AL 35904 From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 17:25:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA02832; Fri, 12 May 2000 17:24:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 17:24:20 -0700 Sender: crusoe@eskimo.com Message-ID: <391C4E6B.29553E34@worldnet.att.net> Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 13:33:15 -0500 From: Daniel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14-15mdk i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Free Energy/Perpetual motion in one neat pkg References: <391B7B95.39B40372@csrlink.net> <391B3D4F.AD110E20@worldnet.att.net> <391C4A26.5A4A2B55@csrlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"LRfii1.0.5i.p2A7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15035 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Johnston wrote: > > Hi Daniel, > You must have misunderstood something. > > Daniel wrote: > > > > No it won't, each generator will consume some of the energy, and waste > > it as heat.... > > Ok, but what energy do you mean? I'm talking about water flowing > downhill. It's a gravity thing. > > > > Slowly it will stop, and no longer turn... > > You mean it will stop gravity from pulling the water downhill? Will it > just levitate there then or fly off into space ? > You really should look at the diagram. That is a old design for a PPM that has failed many times > MJ We know that no generator, and no pump is 100% efficent at converting waterflow to work, and work to waterflow. Some is lost as heat... So as the first generator powers the second pump, you're experiencing losses. Over time, less and less water will be pumped out of the bottom tank to the top. No matter what you try, it will never circulate forever. I have seen plans just like yours, and they've failed. Heck, if it was that simple, everyone would have a ppm. If you want, I can work out the math, but it is much much less than 100% efficient... Daniel Joyce From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 17:31:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA04935; Fri, 12 May 2000 17:30:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 17:30:45 -0700 Sender: crusoe@eskimo.com Message-ID: <391C4FD3.147315CE@worldnet.att.net> Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 13:39:15 -0500 From: Daniel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14-15mdk i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Free Energy/Perpetual motion in one neat pkg References: <5a.513ab72.264dbf0a@aol.com> <004501bfbc52$279cf080$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ZzYc53.0.0D1.r8A7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15036 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sam Garza wrote: > > I understand where you are coming from I was a Physics major in college. But > I have a question for you where does a magnet get its energy to lift heavy > iron objects? The answer is from the zero point or the ether which ever you > prefer. Now where does water get the energy to spiral inwards while > accelerating again the answer is the zpe. This is not perpetual motion this > is a transducer that converts one form of energy into another. Tesla was > told by his professor in Europe that he could not generate electricity from > water through a water wheel as that was perpetual motion ha ha what a laugh. > With Shauberger's transducer (the Kudu spiral) I think we got a shot. After > all who lifted the water up from the ocean to flow down from the mountains? > Sounds like perpetual motion to me, but it has been happening for almost > 6000 years. No it's not. Evaporation will stop as soon as the sun dies. The only reason why water rises then drops is due to external power, the sun in this case... ;) And Actually, If you consider lifting a object with a magnet, that system is going from a state of high energy (seperated bar and magnet ) to low energy ( joined bar and magnet ). To seperate the 2 would take the same amount energy as you got out. So net effect is zero, zilch, etc. It has nothing to do with ZPE, or ether, or what have you. It has to do with the fact that for certain nuclei, having ordered poles is a low-energy state/metastate. This is the usual interplay of T, S, U and all the other thermodynamic variables. Again, you're playing by the third law, Everything Goes to Hell Sooner or Later... ;) From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 17:59:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA12384; Fri, 12 May 2000 17:59:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 17:59:08 -0700 From: Bmd2323@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 20:58:28 EDT Subject: Re: Tesla Turbine Plans- where to get? (was: RE: Free Energy/Perpetual motion... To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 105 Resent-Message-ID: <"gU8CF3.0.P13.SZA7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15037 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You can get plans from the Tesla Engine Builders Association AKA TEBA. They've got a website (can't remember the address should be able to find it using hotbot) and once you join the club (about $35/yr) they'll send you a membership packet which contains plans for a turbine and explains how it works and how much horsepower it generates. Brian Drake From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 19:11:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA01215; Fri, 12 May 2000 19:10:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 19:10:49 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bailey@shell14.ba.best.com Message-Id: Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 19:10:00 -0700 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com (Freengr List) From: Patrick Bailey Subject: THE SECOND INTERNATIONAL ANTIGRAVITY RESEARCH CONFERENCE, June 24-26 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"BrRSe1.0.tI.ecB7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15038 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: THE SECOND INTERNATIONAL ANTIGRAVITY RESEARCH CONFERENCE June 24-26, 2000 Reno, Nevada See the New Conference Announcement: http://www.padrak.com/agn/AGNCONF00.html ---------------------------------------- THE PROGRAM: SATURDAY, JUNE 24, 200O 9:30 MEET AT PIONEER CASINO DELI AREA FOR BADGES (RESERVATIONS: (775)324-7777)) 10:30 INTRODUCTION (JIM COX) 11:00 HISTORY/DEMO OF ELECTROGRAVITATION (200 KV DC TEN FOOT DIA. DEVICE!) BY DAVID ROSIGNOLI, PENNSYLVANIA, USA 12:00 LUNCH BREAK (Sandwiches, Laithwaite video) 1:00 PROGRESS IN INERTIAL PROPULSION-PART 1 (SPIN ANOMALIES AND GYRO THRUST ACTION) By Jim Cox RENO, NEVADA, USA. 2:00 TEST RESULTS OF deAQUINO GRAVITY NULLIFICATION EXPERIMENT BY STEVE BURNS LEXINGTON, MASSACHUSETTS, USA 3:00 BREAK (RICHARD FOSTER--GYROTHRUST PIONEER--video BATON ROUGE, LOUISIANA, US) 3:30 SUPERSYMMETRY, AND QUANTUM LEVEL METRIC DISTORTION BY DAVID SCHROEDER FALMOUTH, MASSACHUSETTS 4:3O: DISCUSSION 4:45 END OF DAY'S SESSIONS 6:00 DINNER AT RENO "THE AERO CLUB" RESTAURANT AT Flint and California Streets. SUNDAY, JUNE 25, 2000 12:30 AGENDA REVIEW 1:00 INERTIAL PROPULSION PROGRESS PART II: VERTICAL THRUST FROM GRAVITY LOADED INERTIAL OSCILLATOR--JIM COX 2:00 PROPELLANTLESS ELECTROMAGNETIC PROPULSION (RF TOROIDAL COIL PENDULUM TESTS) BY DR. STAVROS G. DIMITRIOUS ATHENS, GREECE 3:00 OVERVIEW OF RUSSIAN INERTIAL PROPULSION DR. ALEX. FROLOV ST. PETERSBURG, RUSSIA 3:45 BREAK 4:00 UPDATE ON HAMEL TECHNOLOGY BY STEVEN DUFRESNE VANIER, ONTARIO, CANADA 4:45 END OF DAY'S SESSIONS 6:00 BARBECUE AT IDLEWILD PARK MONDAY, JUNE 26, 2000 10:30 AGENDA REVIEW 11:00 SURPRISE SPEAKER 12:00 LUNCH BREAK (TOM BEARDEN VIDEO) 1:00 GYROTHRUST WORKSHOP--JIM COX *THEORY *EXPERIMENTS/DEMO'S *PATENT LITERATURE *NEW DESIGNS 3:00 GRAVITO-INERTIAL LIFT WORKSHOP--JIM COX *THEORY *EXPERIMENTS/DEMO'S *REFERENCE/PATENT LITERATURE *NEW DESIGNS 5:00 PANEL DISCUSSION 6:00 END OF CONFERENCE From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 23:50:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA31834; Fri, 12 May 2000 23:49:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 23:49:36 -0700 Message-ID: <001201bfbca9$6046a280$8d1b56c3@avd> From: "Aris" To: References: <20000510075813.58728.qmail@hotmail.com> Subject: Who wants to do help designing/building something? Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 03:59:45 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"WjWF83.0.Gn7.-hF7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15039 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear friends, Last weeks I've been eating a lot of nuts. One conclusion I ate, was that designing a web-cad-cam prodution unit might be a very good and interesting investment. I have a good feeling about this thought! Regards, Aris. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 00:48:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA11255; Sat, 13 May 2000 00:48:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 00:48:23 -0700 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Who wants to do help designing/building something? Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 04:01:54 -0400 Message-ID: <20000513080154156.AAA259@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"W0EyK3.0.ml2.7ZG7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15040 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Aris writes: >Dear friends, > >Last weeks I've been eating a lot of nuts. > >One conclusion I ate, was that designing >a web-cad-cam prodution unit might be a >very good and interesting investment. > >I have a good feeling about this thought! > > >Regards, >Aris. Hi Aris, That's not a bad idea. It would just require an internet front end to an existing cad/cam program. One of the biggest hassles I've run into with attempting to share information with other engineers is that we all use different cad/cam programs which output different datasets. Conversion programs are either expensive or not available for all the various platforms, or they just don't work very well. If I drew them on the internet, the person on the other end could interact without all the hassles. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 05:00:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA15148; Sat, 13 May 2000 05:00:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 05:00:20 -0700 Message-ID: <391D4306.E55D09F4@harti.com> Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 13:56:54 +0200 From: Stefan Hartmann Organization: Hartmann Multimedia Service X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [de]C-CCK-MCD QXW03200 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "jlnlabs@egroups.com" , "ou-builders@egroups.com" , Free Energy , Newman-L Mailing List Subject: More info on Daniel Dingle watercar X-Priority: 2 (High) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Lvn212.0.bi3.KFK7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15041 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, I spoke yeasterday with Mr. Czapp, who has visited Daniel Dingle and his watercar in the Phillipines and also did a short about 5 Minutes videotape when he was there. Dingle did experiment with "dead" car batteries when he started and tried to recharge them with High Voltage pulses. Then he discovered, that it puts out a lot of H2 and O2 gas and worked on from there. The first unit was also an old car battery pulsed with High voltage. Now he has a new bigger "unit" with more plates in it. The effect seems to be, according to Mr. Czapp, that the plates need to have a coating, so that the current can not directly flow and that is acts more like a high voltage capacitor, thus "enourmous" current flow is prevented. Maybe it needs the right dielectric between the plates and the water , so it does not consume so much power... I will get a copy of the Czapp video tape next week probably. Stay tuned. Regards, Stefan. -- Best regards, Stefan Hartmann. -- Hartmann Multimedia Service, Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498 email: harti@harti.com info@ccard.net http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB ! From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 05:06:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA17396; Sat, 13 May 2000 05:06:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 05:06:33 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: More info on Daniel Dingle watercar Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 22:05:42 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <391D4306.E55D09F4@harti.com> In-Reply-To: <391D4306.E55D09F4@harti.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id FAA17364 Resent-Message-ID: <"W3Fcu.0.dF4.8LK7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15042 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 13 May 2000 13:56:54 +0200, Stefan Hartmann wrote: [snip] >The effect seems to be, according to Mr. Czapp, that the plates >need to have a coating, so that the current can not directly flow >and that is acts more like a high voltage capacitor, thus "enourmous" >current flow is prevented. Maybe it needs the right dielectric between >the plates >and the water , so it does not consume so much power... [snip] Then perhaps it would work better if he drained the battery, and replaced the electrolyte with distilled water? (See Stan Meyer). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 09:19:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA05896; Sat, 13 May 2000 09:18:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 09:18:56 -0700 Message-ID: <391D7F7F.1EE44FBE@harti.com> Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 18:14:55 +0200 From: Stefan Hartmann Organization: Hartmann Multimedia Service X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [de]C-CCK-MCD QXW03200 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "jlnlabs@egroups.com" , "ou-builders@egroups.com" , Free Energy , Newman-L Mailing List Subject: High Voltage electrolysis experiments... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"tPmF23.0.1S1.m1O7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15043 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, today I tried to use my high voltage fluorescent driver circuit to generate a HV electrolysis, but when powering it with a 12 Volts battery and just putting 2 electrodes from the HV terminal output in a water bath, there was no electrolysis observed, although the HV driver puts out about 1200 Volts positive DC pulses at about 25 Khz acrosss the output terminals. When putting the electrodes into the water bath, the HV driver draws about 450 mA at 12 Volts = 5.4 Watts input power. Now I just connected an 8 Watts 30 cm long fluorescent tube to the gound output terminal of the HV side and then from the other side of the fl tube to the cathode in the water bath. Now I see quite some bubles being generated at this cathode and the fl tube lights brightly up and the input current at the 12 Volts input goes down to about 400 mA= 4.8 Watts of input power. Okay the difference in Wattage seems to be better impedance matching. But now the questionis , why is there only an electrolysis WITH the fl tube inserted. It also matters, at which output terminal you connect the Fl tube between. If you connected it between the positive output and the anode of the water bath, then there is no real effect and the fl tube does not light up. Generelly it seems that an electrolysis needs a threshold current density to occur. When I put the electrodes of this HV driver directly between a small water bubble WITHOUT the fl tube, the small water bubble starts to heat up and also electrolysis happens and steam and H2 and O2 builds up and the water is also getting pretty hot. But when I put the electrodes in a big water bath as above, nothing happens. There the current density of the HV current is just to small to heat up the whole water and so there is also no electrolysis. In the small water bubbles example, there the water converts to steam and thus the current tracks becomes smaller and smaller and thus it heats up more and more and also electrolysis starts up. So I guess electrolysis can be optimized by using just Water steam between 2 DC pulsed HV electrodes. It could be tried by boiling water and put 2 electrodes into s pressurized steam container, but I guess this could be pretty dangerous experiment ! You do it at your own risk. Anyway, if you take the cathode of the fl driver and put a needle to it and put the anode into the water bath and the hold the needle into the water and then pull it slowly out, you will also generate some surface electrolysis there, where the water tension still touches the needle and a small cuurent channel is created. There the water begins to boil and to electrolyse, but it is just only 1/10th of a millimeter above the surface, when the needle still touches the water. So I am still puzzled, why just only with the fl tube inserted there is only some good electrolysis happening....? Maybe via the fl tube one can reach higher current densities inside the water or maybe also the plasma inside the fl tube plays any role ? Please let me know your view. Thanks ! Regards, Stefan. -- Best regards, Stefan Hartmann. -- Hartmann Multimedia Service, Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498 email: harti@harti.com info@ccard.net http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB ! From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 10:05:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA18076; Sat, 13 May 2000 10:04:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 10:04:59 -0700 Message-ID: <391D7DAE.3A951B5B@csrlink.net> Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 12:07:10 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: An Oxymoron For You References: <391C4F87.89E39A01@csrlink.net> <003a01bfbc4e$d6f95a40$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9JcJv2.0.HQ4.wiO7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15044 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Sam, I (me) don't sell anything. It is a joke. An oxymoron is two conflicting words, usually of opposite meaning that are used in a statement to mean something else. For example; Army Intelligence. This one is the conflict between the words SELL and FREE. If it is free energy than what business does anyone have trying to sell it? See? MJ Sam Garza wrote: > > What kind of free energy devices? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mike Johnston > To: Michael S. Johnston > Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 2:37 PM > Subject: An Oxymoron For You > > > Hi All, > > > > Q: What do you do for a living? > > > > A: I SELL FREE ENERGY devices. > > MJ > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 10:17:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA21438; Sat, 13 May 2000 10:16:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 10:16:39 -0700 From: tgrimes1@juno.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 13:12:55 -0400 Subject: Re: High Voltage electrolysis experiments... Message-ID: <20000513.131304.-451885.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-3,7-8,19-25 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 Resent-Message-ID: <"UhhyR2.0.tE5.stO7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15045 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >So I am still puzzled, why just only with the fl tube inserted there is >only some good electrolysis happening....? [etc.] Do you suppose that the tube has the effect of smoothing out the pulses generated by the HV source? It seems to me that 25 kHz is a bit too rapid to produce electrolysis, since there seems to be a short delay between when current is applied to a cell and when bubbles form. This is totally conjecture, but I have an idea why the sequence of tube and cell is important. If the positive terminal is grounded, that is, if the negative terminal is negative with respect to ground, then maybe the cell conducts when the tube is connected to the negative terminal of the HV source because it smooths the output waveform before it "gets to" the cell. But when the tube is connected to the positive side, the water cannot conduct the rapidly pulsed electricity and acts like a very large resistor. In short, my idea is that the resistivity of water is proportional to the frequency of the current. I know this is pure conjecture and that it may quite possibly be wrong, but it also may be close to the truth. Just my two cents worth. -Tom Grimes mailto:tgrimes1@juno.com ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 10:35:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA27342; Sat, 13 May 2000 10:35:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 10:35:33 -0700 Message-ID: <391D84E3.6704F882@csrlink.net> Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 12:37:55 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Free Energy/Perpetual motion in one neat pkg References: <5a.513ab72.264dbf0a@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"llEF31.0.4h6.a9P7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15046 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Keasy, Hmmm, maybe you are right. I'm just going to have to work it out and post it. Sigh. MJ Keasy@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 5/12/00 12:17:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > enki@csrlink.net writes: > > > > > Well that is why I put the pump at the top. If you pump all of the > > air out of the pipe then air pressure forces the water up for you (Like > > a Barometer). Uses much less power than pumping up from the bottom. > > MJ > > > Sounds ok, but unfortunately theory says the work (or energy) required to > lift water is m x g x h, where m x g is the weight and h is the height it is > raised. That is the absolute minimum; any pump has losses and requires more. > In the case of the pump at the top it requires just as much work to maintain > a vacuum that raises the water as does to push the water up from the bottom. > > Ken From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 10:48:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA32458; Sat, 13 May 2000 10:47:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 10:47:34 -0700 Message-ID: <391D87B4.D6531E9E@csrlink.net> Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 12:49:56 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Water Car, gasoline, and $$. References: <391CF967.ED2DC0C2@layo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vSKb_3.0.2x7.rKP7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15047 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Gerald, I have been reading up on aluminum and you might have a point in that device on your site. I don't think all of the math is right but aluminum actually has a higher affinity for O2 than H2 does (170 kcal per mole as opposed to 135 Kcal per mole) once you take the oxidation layer off of the aluminum it could strip O2 from water without any added energy. Interesting. MJ Gerald Nefkens wrote: > > Hi > I wonder the 'inventor' did just > what is explained on our site ! > http://www.layo.com > > And more I wonder why he didn't inform us ! > Gerard > France > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 10:52:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA02577; Sat, 13 May 2000 10:52:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 10:52:18 -0700 Message-ID: <391D88CA.1B92D3E7@csrlink.net> Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 12:54:34 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Free Energy/Perpetual (Daniel's Response References: <391B7B95.39B40372@csrlink.net> <391B3D4F.AD110E20@worldnet.att.net> <391C4A26.5A4A2B55@csrlink.net> <391C4E6B.29553E34@worldnet.att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"aSlEK2.0._d.HPP7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15048 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Daniel, It doesn't have to be 100 percent efficient. I'm going to do the whole explanation. I'll do the math. I'm going to look at the recovery side first. Maybe I am wrong, so let's find out. MJ Daniel wrote: > > That is a old design for a PPM that has failed many times > We know that no generator, and no pump is 100% efficent at converting > waterflow to work, and work to waterflow. Some is lost as heat... > > So as the first generator powers the second pump, you're experiencing > losses. Over time, less and less water will be pumped out of the bottom > tank to the top. No matter what you try, it will never circulate > forever. > > I have seen plans just like yours, and they've failed. Heck, if it was > that simple, everyone would have a ppm. > > If you want, I can work out the math, but it is much much less than > 100% efficient... > > Daniel Joyce From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 12:02:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA20477; Sat, 13 May 2000 12:01:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 12:01:39 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.20000513190255.008cecb8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: vinny@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 15:02:55 -0400 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: Vinny Pinto Subject: A Goodbye and Thank You Resent-Message-ID: <"nTL7E.0.s_4.IQQ7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15049 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Folks: Over the next 24 hours I will be unsubscribing from this list and one or two others to which I belong. The sheer volume of e-mail is simply too overwhelming -- too much of a good thing -- and is interfering with my research and experiments. I may , however, come "back to the well" and re-join briefly from time to time, as my time allows, in order to share information, ask questions and be exposed to new persepectives. I want to thank you all very much for your roles in this list and for conservations we have had. I appreciate this list and its citizens very much! I will continue to be available via e-mail at my home e-mail address. I wish you all the best and offer my thanks! in grace and peace, --Vinny vinny@mindspring.com Vinny Pinto vinny@mindspring.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 12:38:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA29469; Sat, 13 May 2000 12:37:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 12:37:24 -0700 Message-ID: <391DA170.A3C8B1A7@csrlink.net> Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 14:39:44 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: A Goodbye and Thank You References: <2.2.32.20000513190255.008cecb8@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"bJDSt3.0.LC7.pxQ7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15050 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Vinny, Nicely said. Bye. Good Luck, have fun, etc... MJ Vinny Pinto wrote: > > Hi Folks: > > Over the next 24 hours I will be unsubscribing from this list and one or two > others to which I belong. The sheer volume of e-mail is simply too > overwhelming -- too much of a good thing -- and is interfering with my > research and experiments. I may , however, come "back to the well" and > re-join briefly from time to time, as my time allows, in order to share > information, ask questions and be exposed to new persepectives. > > I want to thank you all very much for your roles in this list and for > conservations we have had. I appreciate this list and its citizens very much! > > I will continue to be available via e-mail at my home e-mail address. I > wish you all the best and offer my thanks! > > in grace and peace, > --Vinny > vinny@mindspring.com > Vinny Pinto > vinny@mindspring.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 13:31:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA09186; Sat, 13 May 2000 13:30:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 13:30:46 -0700 Message-ID: <391DAD0B.6814B6AC@csrlink.net> Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 15:29:15 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael S. Johnston" Subject: How to get water to flow uphill Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"70Xoc1.0.RF2.rjR7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15051 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, I'd like to see if the water tower drawing has any chance whatsoever of working in the real world. The drawing represents the furthest that I could take the idea relying solely on the capacity of my own brain. Normally I could have done better but after that accident I had a lot of brain damage and so I can only function at about an IQ of 145 now. Sad I know, just think about what I could have done... Let's take a look at the various components of the Water Tower device that I mailed in to the lists. I didn't think that there would be this much debate about the more obvious features of it but since there has been ok, I'll put up or shut up. Either way will be a surprise to me as I haven't worked it out yet either. First I want to consider the fuel return system. This would consist of the catch basin under the last water wheel, the tube/pipe that stretches from the catch basin up to the pump at the top of the tank (at the top of the system) and the pump itself. In the responses that I got to the original post the main argument has been that it takes just as much power to get the water back to the top as what you could get out of it on the way down. This is true. I don't have any problem with that statement. Unfortunately, in the context it is used, it ignores the fact that there are quite a few ways to modify the way in which you apply or create power. That is the problem. In this case you have a given quantity of water that you want to move from point a to point b at a specific rate of flow. To do this a certain amount of work, in the form of an upward push or pull, is necessary. We don't have to worry yet about what the water has done or can do on it's way down from the holding tank. That can be addressed later. For now let's just figure out the easiest way to get the water up there. So how do we do it? Do we create a race of cyborg slaves to run up and down several flights of steps with teacups full of water? Or maybe we could form an old fashioned "bucket brigade"? Or perhaps we could stretch a rope from the catch basin back to the tank on top and let the water "wick" it's way up? Or we could pump it. I guess we'll work with pumping it because that is the way I designed it. Besides you'd have to feed the cyborgs anyway. The main objections have been that pumping it requires a lot of energy. I agree. If the pump was in the catch basin at the bottom it would have to pump up against the column of water in the tube/pipe and the taller the column was the more the water in it would weigh and the harder it would have to pump and the more energy that would be required to get it up to where you want it to do your work. This argument is, as I said, valid. It is very simple. However it totally misses the point. That is really it's major drawback. I designed this whole thing to be simple enough that anyone who has ever taken high school physics could understand it. But apparently some people don't. Oh well, if I have to explain it point by point I will. If we take our basic physics books and turn to the section that deals with the properties of gasses we will learn about air pressure. The way that we can use air pressure to help us move the water is in there. We see that air pressure is 14.7 pounds sq/in. This means that air is pushing on everything and unless there was an equal force pushing back you would either explode or implode. Let's consider a barometer. From studying it we learn that if a long vertical tube is inserted into a liquid and the air is pumped from the top of the tube the liquid will be pushed up into the tube by the force of the air pressure pushing on the surface of the water in the vessel below (the catch basin). The liquid will rise until the pressure in the remaining air in the tube is equal to the air pressure outside the tube at that height. If there is no air remaining in the tube the liquid will rise as far as the pressure on the surface below will allow it to. In other words if there is 10 pounds pushing from below then 10 pounds of liquid will rise into the vacuum tube. To actually figure out the amount of push you can get from below you need to do some math. We need to multiply standard air pressure by the surface dimensions of the catch basin (in inches). Let's do an example. If our catch basin is ten feet by five feet our problem would look like this: (14.7 lb/in2)(120")(60")= 105,840 pounds of pressure pushing down on the surface of the catch basin. How can we use this force? Can we use it? Sure we can! Does anyone know about hydraulics? Well that is sort of like this except in reverse. We are going from a large area to a small one. We do have a closed system from the basin up to the pump which sucks the air out of the pipe/tube. So then whatever force is exerted on the surface of the water in our basin would be transmitted equally to all parts of the system, including the water in the tube, due to the lack of air pressure within the tube. By this reasoning a column of water could enter the tube and rise up into the tube as far as it can until it is exerting a force of 105,840 pounds back down. Depending on the diameter of the tube this could be quite high! For example, a cubic foot of water weighs 67 pounds. If we had a pipe with a diameter of twelve inches we could divide the 105,840 pounds of pressure by 67 pounds per cubic foot and see that we could support a column of water 12 inches wide by 12 inches high (a rough cubic foot) 1579.7014 feet into the air, just by maintaining that vacuum! You can put quite a few water wheels in 1579.7014 feet of space. So if, by this method, we figure how high we want to raise the water and build our catch basin with the proper dimensions and get a pump that can move water at the rate we need then your pump would technically be working no harder at raising the water and pumping it through itself than it would be if it were simply transferring water between two tanks that were both on the ground. By using air pressure to help us we have effectively negated the forces of gravity! See? I'm not making any great revelations here. I am simply using undeniably known physical laws. In this case it does indeed require energy to run the pump that moves water uphill. The advantage is that by using air pressure to help us we can use a pump that requires much LESS energy than otherwise. Are we ok with the fuel recovery system now? I hope so! Next Installment: The holding tank and first turbine. MJ P.S: For a real world example, this process is used to unload ships and railcars full of sand or grain. A pipe is put into the material and a blower motor sucks air out of the pipe. The material is transferred this way. You'd be surprised how fast you can move 50,000 pounds of grain. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 13:37:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA10974; Sat, 13 May 2000 13:36:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 13:36:23 -0700 Message-ID: <10964080.958250176037.JavaMail.imail@magic.excite.com> Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 13:36:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Matt Reply-To: To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Energyidea Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 142.165.111.101 Resent-Message-ID: <"P5ggE3.0.Lh2.6pR7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15052 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi I was wondering if it would be possible to use the Ion rocket to power an engine. Considering that they run for a long time they might actually be feasible. The plans for the rocket are on bill beatys website and are dubbed the "Electronic Rocket" If you could discharge the capacitator into the water slowly the waters has resistance and will heat up. It's possible that you could use this to power a steam engine. The electrons flowing from the end might also meet resistance and heat up the water as well. Because these rockets run a long time on a single couple second charge from a VDG (Van Degraff Generator) you could have a drive shaft and just leave it running. To get it going you just have to put it in gear and off you go. According to the site if you made it with the proper materials this thing would run for a century. Providing you gave it a longer and more powerful charge. But think no more gas prices you just buy the car fully charged and then never worry about gas again. Also it wouldn't be contributing to the ever increasing amount of pollution either. If this worked it would partialy save the enviroment as well as the ozone layer. ___________________________________________________________ ------------------In Christ,-Matt-------------------------- Matthew.Carter@Excite.com ___________________________________________________________ I am not ashamed to bear witness of Christ my Savior _______________________________________________________ Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 14:03:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA17887; Sat, 13 May 2000 14:02:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 14:02:57 -0700 Sender: crusoe@eskimo.com Message-ID: <391D70BD.31F65C1E@worldnet.att.net> Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 10:11:57 -0500 From: Daniel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14-15mdk i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Free Energy/Perpetual (Daniel's Response References: <391B7B95.39B40372@csrlink.net> <391B3D4F.AD110E20@worldnet.att.net> <391C4A26.5A4A2B55@csrlink.net> <391C4E6B.29553E34@worldnet.att.net> <391D88CA.1B92D3E7@csrlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"c1Twc.0.ON4.0CS7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15053 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Johnston wrote: > > Hi Daniel, > It doesn't have to be 100 percent efficient. I'm going to do the > whole explanation. I'll do the math. I'm going to look at the recovery > side first. Maybe I am wrong, so let's find out. > MJ > If you want it to run forever, it needs to be at least 100% efficient ( Energy of the falling water = Energy needed to bring the water back to the top ). If it's only 90% efficient, then it won't cycle forever ( note, all electric motors and generators lose about 5-10% of the power as heat ). From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 14:35:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA26082; Sat, 13 May 2000 14:34:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 14:34:59 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Energyidea Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 07:34:16 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <06irhssr0fpaibek6fbsn84q79urbo815h@4ax.com> References: <10964080.958250176037.JavaMail.imail@magic.excite.com> In-Reply-To: <10964080.958250176037.JavaMail.imail@magic.excite.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA26050 Resent-Message-ID: <"LpBrv1.0.MN6.3gS7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15054 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 13 May 2000 13:36:16 -0700 (PDT), Matt wrote: >Hi >I was wondering if it would be possible to use the Ion rocket to power an >engine. Considering that they run for a long time they might actually be >feasible. The plans for the rocket are on bill beatys website and are >dubbed the "Electronic Rocket" If you could discharge the capacitator into >the water slowly the waters has resistance and will heat up. It's possible >that you could use this to power a steam engine. The electrons flowing from [snip] Hi Matt, First, the "Electronic Rocket" is not supposed to be an ion rocket, but an anti-gravity device. Second, if it were an ion rocket, then it would require a power supply, and the whole concept of using it to produce power would be pointless. However, if it is genuinely an anti-gravity device, and taps into some hitherto unknown power source, then it may be possible to extract energy from it (see TT Brown's patents). If so, then the simplest way of doing so would be to place a pair of them on opposite ends of a beam that forms a capstan. The axle of the capstan could then be used to drive an electrical generator directly, without any intermediary lossy conversion steps. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 14:38:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA27564; Sat, 13 May 2000 14:38:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 14:38:44 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Water Car, gasoline, and $$. Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 07:38:01 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <8nirhs0vhfeepf73l829b7e3p8mq34tqg8@4ax.com> References: <391CF967.ED2DC0C2@layo.com> <391D87B4.D6531E9E@csrlink.net> In-Reply-To: <391D87B4.D6531E9E@csrlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA27537 Resent-Message-ID: <"Q8Am21.0.bk6.ZjS7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15055 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 13 May 2000 12:49:56 -0400, Mike Johnston wrote: > >Hi Gerald, > I have been reading up on aluminum and you might have a point in that >device on your site. I don't think all of the math is right but aluminum >actually has a higher affinity for O2 than H2 does (170 kcal per mole as >opposed to 135 Kcal per mole) once you take the oxidation layer off of >the aluminum it could strip O2 from water without any added energy. >Interesting. >MJ [snip] Correct, and this might make aluminium a useful energy carrier, but not a primary energy source. Try working out the cost of aluminium as a fuel, compared to the cost of gasoline. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 14:39:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA27614; Sat, 13 May 2000 14:38:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 14:38:50 -0700 Message-ID: <391DBCEB.F3B28A68@csrlink.net> Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 16:36:59 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: energy21 Subject: [Fwd: Spider-web sensor reveals a flat universe] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------31085810A2F3B4E76439BB7D" Resent-Message-ID: <"5UpUl.0.Nl6.fjS7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15056 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------31085810A2F3B4E76439BB7D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------31085810A2F3B4E76439BB7D Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from www-onlab.jpl.nasa.gov (www-onlab.jpl.nasa.gov [137.78.99.25]) by uplink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA25217; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 21:33:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (jplnews@localhost) by www-onlab.jpl.nasa.gov (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA26368; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 18:33:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 18:33:20 -0700 (PDT) From: JPLNews@jpl.nasa.gov Subject: Spider-web sensor reveals a flat universe Reply-To: news-owner@www.jpl.nasa.gov To: undisclosed-recipients:; Message-ID: X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 MEDIA RELATIONS OFFICE JET PROPULSION LABORATORY CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION PASADENA, CALIF. 91109 TELEPHONE (818) 354-5011 http://www.jpl.nasa.gov Contact: Michelle Viotti (818) 354-8774 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE April 26, 2000 SPIDER-WEB SENSOR REVEALS A FLAT UNIVERSE Inspired by the elegant efficiency of spider webs, researchers at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL), Pasadena, Calif., have designed a tiny, web-shaped sensor that maps faint structures in the early universe, reinforcing theories that the cosmos is flat in its geometry. (A NASA news release describing the overall results may be found at ftp://ftp.hq.nasa.gov/pub/pao/pressrel/2000/00-067.txt .) Carried on an internationally sponsored balloon experiment called BOOMERANG (Balloon Observations of Millimetric Extragalactic Radiation and Geophysics), the dime-sized sensor known as a "micromesh bolometer" is a prime example of NASA's success in developing miniaturized, high-performance technologies for space missions. "Just as spiders spin their webs with the least amount of silk possible, we were able to eliminate 99 percent of the material used by conventional bolometers," said Dr. James Bock, who led in the detector's development at JPL's Microdevices Laboratory. "The supporting material for our detector even has the same thickness as a strand in a spider's web -- about one micron thick, or one hundred times finer than a human hair." Using advanced micro-machining techniques, each section of the sensor's web was designed to be smaller than the millimeter wavelength of radiation streaming in from the cosmic microwave background. Created when the first atoms formed in the early universe, the cosmic microwave background has cooled a thousand times from its original temperature -- comparable to the hot surface of the Sun -- to the cold, faint radiation seen today. While the cosmic microwave background is almost perfectly uniform in all directions, the sensitivity of JPL's bolometer allows scientists to capture temperature variations of only 100- millionths of a degree (0.0001 C) in just a few seconds of observing time. "That's sensitive enough to detect the heat given off by a coffee maker all the way from the Moon," said Bock. By measuring one small patch of sky after another over several days of observation, the bolometers plot a map of the cosmic background radiation, providing a snapshot of the universe when the radiation formed about 300,000 years after the Big Bang. At this time, regions with a higher density of matter and energy left a record in the background radiation. Wherever dense regions existed, they left a faint imprint of slightly higher temperatures. These fluctuations in the background serve as a kind of fingerprint, allowing scientists to discriminate between theories of cosmic development. With the bolometer's high level of sensitivity, the BOOMERANG project was able to reveal density patterns in the young universe that are consistent with an inflationary theory of cosmic development. This theory proposes that, in the first moments after the Big Bang, the universe went through a period of extreme, exponential inflation. The theory further predicts a "flat" geometry for the universe, because the immense stretching of space during an inflationary period would have removed any initially strong curvature in the smaller and denser early universe. "Think of it this way," explains Bock. "If we were to balance on a large ball, we would certainly feel the curvature beneath our feet. Expand that ball to the size of the Earth, and we experience that space as flat. Now think about blowing up that ball to a cosmic scale, and you can imagine how inflation would vastly flatten the visible universe." To test cosmic development theories even further, future JPL bolometers will fly on the European Space Agency's Far Infrared and Submillimetre Telescope (FIRST) and Planck missions, both scheduled for launch in 2007. Using bolometers with 10 times higher performance, Planck is expected to provide the definitive map of variations in the cosmic microwave background, while FIRST will survey some of the earliest galaxies. In the meantime, scientists will be studying the BOOMERANG map over the next few years to gain a better understanding of the nature and composition of matter in the universe. The BOOMERANG results were obtained through a balloon experiment in 1998 that carried JPL's bolometer in a sensitive receiver 36 kilometers (23 miles) above the atmosphere in Antarctica. Because Antarctica provides 24-hour sunlight and winds that blow in a circular pattern around the continent, the balloon experiment was able to maintain continuous measurements over a 10-1/2 day period. The scientific results will be published in the April 27 issue of Nature. Information on the BOOMERANG project can be found at http://www.physics.ucsb.edu/~boomerang and http://oberon.roma1.infn.it/boomerang . For images of JPL's micromesh bolometer and its results, see http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/pictures/boomerang . The BOOMERANG Project was led by Dr. Andrew Lange of the California Institute of Technology and by Dr. Paolo DeBernardis of the University of Rome La Sapienza. Primary funding for BOOMERANG was provided by the National Science Foundation and NASA in the United States; the Italian Space Agency, the Italian Antarctic Research Programme and the University of Rome La Sapienza in Italy; and the Particle Physics and Astronomy Research Council in the United Kingdom. The Department of Energy's National Energy Research Supercomputing Center provided high-level computer analysis of the data. The Microdevices Laboratory is a state-of-the-art research and technology-development facility in the Center for Space Microelectronics Technology at JPL. Funding for the micromesh bolometer came from JPL's Technology and Applications Programs Directorate. JPL is managed by Caltech on behalf of NASA. ##### 4/26/00 MV #00-40 --------------------------------------------------------------- You are subscribed to JPL's news mailing list. To unsubscribe, please send an e-mail to JPLNews@jpl.nasa.gov and in the body of the message include the following line. unsubscribe news Please do not reply to this e-mail. For help, send a message to listmaster@www.jpl.nasa.gov. --------------31085810A2F3B4E76439BB7D-- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 14:47:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA31328; Sat, 13 May 2000 14:47:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 14:47:16 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: High Voltage electrolysis experiments... Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 07:46:33 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20000513.131304.-451885.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> In-Reply-To: <20000513.131304.-451885.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA31303 Resent-Message-ID: <"4PHuY2.0.Pf7.ZrS7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15057 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 13 May 2000 13:12:55 -0400, tgrimes1@juno.com wrote: >>So I am still puzzled, why just only with the fl tube inserted there is >>only some good electrolysis happening....? >[etc.] > > Do you suppose that the tube has the effect of smoothing out the pulses >generated by the HV source? It seems to me that 25 kHz is a bit too >rapid to produce electrolysis, since there seems to be a short delay >between when current is applied to a cell and when bubbles form. [snip] You might also like to experiment with the size of the electrodes in the water, and with a second fl tube on the other side of the water as well. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 14:49:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA32479; Sat, 13 May 2000 14:49:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 14:49:27 -0700 Message-ID: <391DCD1A.673E5E55@harti.com> Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 23:46:02 +0200 From: Stefan Hartmann Organization: Hartmann Multimedia Service X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [de]C-CCK-MCD QXW03200 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Free Energy , Newman-L Mailing List , "ou-builders@egroups.com" Subject: Testatika principle found ? X-Priority: 2 (High) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"kmcKf3.0.Hx7.btS7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15058 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Graham, bravo,congratulations ! I guess you found the way, how the Methernitha Testatika works ! Imagine using an high Voltage electret or as in the Testatika 2 rotating charged discs with segments. They also have a big crystal diode there, maybe these are also 2 diodes combines. By the way, how do crystal diodes exactly work ? Is it a metal to crystal effect ? How much current can flow through a quartz crystal ? Probably not much, right ? Isn´t the crystal SiO2 ? Anyway. this circuit down here is very interesting. I have played with an Avramenko plug and you are quite right, it just only needs the changing voltage potential ! How the changing voltage potential is generated, does not matter at all ! If it is just done via "INFLUENCE" via a mechanical switch, this is alright and really needs no power ! I will try this soon and measure input power into the C1 capacitor (if it is driven by a HV power supply) and output power from C2. If output power from C2 is higher, we would already have an OU system. Did you also try it with lower voltages ? I guess it only works with higher voltages above 500 Volts up. The Testatika could be working in the KiloVolts range and use the different big capacitors (Leydner Jars) to step down the voltage via a capacitive transformer effect. There is also a mechanical HV driver motor in the Testatika, that drives the 2 discs and also a "magnetic switcher", this is probably also something like your Reed relay switch to commutate the routing for the capacitive transformer effect. Graham, keep up the good work and dream again these nice things ! :=) Regards, Stefan. . > > *** > Finally, I built one last circuit that puzzled me for a long time. I built it after I started reading Tom Bearden's papers. It appeared to me in a dream. > > +---+--- > - | | > ----| ^d | | > | * s1 - | Ne > =c1 /*--+ =c2 | > | * - | 3 > ----| ^d | 3 > - | | > +------- > > The left side of this circuit is a capacitor connected across the two open contact points of a SPDT reed relay (s1). The center (toggling) contact of the reed relay connects to the center of the diodes of the "Avramenko plug". This charges a capacitor t hat is discharged by the Ne lamp in series with a 47K resistor. > > Diodes d can be single 1N4948 but I found it was better to use many in series, like a chain of 10 diodes in series for each "d" in the schematic. > > c1 was a 0.1 uF 25kV oil capacitor charged to about 600 volts maximum. The oil capacitor was used because it has very low leakage and will stay charged for a long time. > > Diodes d were 1N4948. c2 was 0.047uF 630V polypropylene dielectric. > > Brushing a magnet over the reed switch (to toggle it) would make the neon bulb flash. A switched coil that actuated the reed switch much faster than this was used and a lot of energy came out for the size of this circuit. c1 did not discharge very quick ly, it became obvious that c2 was getting more charge on it than c1 contained. > > While under certain circumstances this circuit will measure over unity, (Tom Bearden says it will do this, too) solid state switches don't work to substitute for s1. Read Bearden, he can say why better than I can. One needs a physical disconnection/conn ection at s1 to get this effect. I have used MOSFETS and other things to try and substitute for s1, but the results are not good, the extra charge seems to get lost in them. > > With mechanical switching I have noted o/u in some setups, but capacitive coupling between c1 and c2 can destroy the free energy effect and run down source capacitor c1. > > Apparently Mr Bearden has applied for a patent of this circuit, or one like it. He calls it "step charging" the capacitor, as each "click" of the relay notches up the charge on c2 by an increment. > > Bearden also notes that step charging has been mathematically shown in graduate physics texts to be able to charge a capacitor without entropy - that is, without the disordering (loss) of the original charging potential. This circuit has been mathematic ally shown to be capable of o/u, apparently, but no one yet has gotten around the mechanical switch and made it solid state. Even Mr Bearden has not been able to, but that is no grounds for discouragement. > > In the circuit, one can see that there is never even a physical complete circuit between the plates of c1. How, then, will it ever discharge? The charge "spray" (as Bearden calls it) is rectified by the diodes without any electron flow. This charges c2 without discharging c1. I personally will testify to this, I have seen it myself. This effect only occurs when the capacitive coupling between c1 and c2 is broken. > > If the output of c2 could feed a coil that spun a disc with magnets on it, and the magnets turned and flew by the reed switch so as to trigger it many times, maybe this circuit would be capable of self sustained o/u action. The reed switches are only go od to about 500 volts though, and the output of this circuit is proportional to the square of c1's voltage. > > -Graham > > > Original Message: > > Dear Graham: > > I take the liberty of talk directly to you as in the lists almost all > are interested in another type of projects. > Have you done any test on the Avramenko plug? > I've done these test to see if the cap really charges and it does. I > used a ignition > coil,a 3N3055 and a 555 oscillator in a simple setup and a pot to vary > the frequency. > What I want to find someone more equiped than me (and with more knows) > to se from where the power come from to charge the cap as there is no > actual > ground connection to explain a normal functioning. > Please allow me a little asci drawing to refresh the plug: > > ---|>|--- > HV | __|__ > HF --------------¦ ____ > sin or pulsed | | > ---|<|--- > > I'm not an artist, obviously. If this cap is charging for free then will > not be very difficult > to extract energy from that with the right circuit via switchs or > something else. > > Any comments are welcome of course. Thanks for your time. > > Juan de la Cruz Barrios > > PS: I really enjoy yours post, please keep the good work. -- Best regards, Stefan Hartmann. -- Hartmann Multimedia Service, Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498 email: harti@harti.com info@ccard.net http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB ! From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 15:41:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA12753; Sat, 13 May 2000 15:40:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 15:40:37 -0700 Message-ID: <004f01bfbd2c$371b2600$0892f426@Dabney.com> From: "Red Leader" To: References: <10964080.958250176037.JavaMail.imail@magic.excite.com> Subject: Re: Energyidea Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 17:40:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"1aElj3.0.A73.VdT7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15059 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Matt wrote: > I was wondering if it would be possible to use the Ion rocket to power an > engine. Considering that they run for a long time they might actually be > feasible. The plans for the rocket are on bill beatys website and are > dubbed the "Electronic Rocket" . . . I could think of all sorts of uses for this device. Unfortunately, nobody has been able to verify whether it actually works or not. --- Emmett Hawkins "Red Leader" --- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 16:26:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA23492; Sat, 13 May 2000 16:25:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 16:25:22 -0700 Message-ID: <20000513232449.517.qmail@web4403.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 16:24:49 -0700 (PDT) From: harvey norris Subject: Re: High Voltage electrolysis experiments... To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"Sb9Xv.0.yk5.YHU7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15060 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- tgrimes1@juno.com wrote: > >So I am still puzzled, why just only with the fl > tube inserted there is > >only some good electrolysis happening....? > [etc.] I have found gas tubes beneficial for producing high freq effects where the tube is connected to a terminal end polar capacity. > Do you suppose that the tube has the effect of > smoothing out the pulses > generated by the HV source? It seems to me that 25 > kHz is a bit too > rapid to produce electrolysis, since there seems to > be a short delay > between when current is applied to a cell and when > bubbles form. I have used high voltage, high freq at a predicted 31,250 hz to produce small amounts of electrolysis. This occured on the crumpled aluminum foil going into the water as shown in the needle glow discharge picture. > This is totally conjecture, but I have an idea why > the sequence of tube > and cell is important. If the positive terminal is > grounded, that is, if > the negative terminal is negative with respect to > ground, then maybe the > cell conducts when the tube is connected to the > negative terminal of the > HV source because it smooths the output waveform > before it "gets to" the > cell. But when the tube is connected to the > positive side, the water > cannot conduct the rapidly pulsed electricity and > acts like a very large > resistor. In short, my idea is that the resistivity > of water is > proportional to the frequency of the current. I am in total agreement here, at higher freq.s the skin effect predominates so that current will travel over the surface of the water. I have actually stuck by finger in the water in similar high voltage 440 inputs made to water cells not like the needle glow disharge. I could then disharge a neon to another person merely by touching the glass to them with the other hand. Concerning high voltage electrolysis see needle glow discharge linked to the following page Snapshots in Time of a MWO Process Pg 1 http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/LaGrangeLn/teslafy/analomous.html click on previous selection at end of page. This was a poor digital camera picture which was later printed and scanned for the web page, and then rejected for poor quality. The input was 464 ACvolts@est 40 ma. Later problems were found in the actual analogue amperage measuement, so this is an estimate. That particular process involved a thirty fold series resonant rise of voltage past that what the 440 transformer inputed. This voltage rise may have been in excess to that quoted figure since inside the second stage was another predicted voltage rise obtained by making a 31,250 hz electrical standing wave on each side of the water vessel. I did not obtain spectacular discharges like this at the lower wall voltage input, and nonlinearities of amperage consumption were noted at the higher voltage input. What I am trying today is to repeat these observations at wall input, without the 31,250 hz coil system attached. May forward a jpeg picture to the list if good pictures result. HDN __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 17:51:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA08919; Sat, 13 May 2000 17:50:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 17:50:47 -0700 Message-ID: <391DEAE5.89A4735B@csrlink.net> Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 19:53:09 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Water Car, gasoline, and $$. References: <391CF967.ED2DC0C2@layo.com> <391D87B4.D6531E9E@csrlink.net> <8nirhs0vhfeepf73l829b7e3p8mq34tqg8@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"J0ySw2.0.GB2.dXV7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15061 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Robin, True. But in the design that is on the LAYO page the inventor uses a mig welder to feed aluminum wire into a container of water where it arcs near a rotating cylinder. The arc strips away the oxidation from something (either the wire or the cylinder or both) and H2 gas is produced as the Al reacts with water and liberates O2 from it. The O2 latches onto the Al to form a compound which precipitates to the bottom of the vessel. If you collect this residue it is easily converted back into aluminum. That is the principle anyway. I hadn't really commented on it before very much but that little bit of info at least confirmed that it would work at that level. I'm still not sure about 1)the amount of electricity they are using 2) the manner in which the electricity is produced and 3)the mpg that is claimed for the vehicle. Have you ever looked at it? MJ Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > On Sat, 13 May 2000 12:49:56 -0400, Mike Johnston wrote: > > > > >Hi Gerald, > > I have been reading up on aluminum and you might have a point in that > >device on your site. I don't think all of the math is right but aluminum > >actually has a higher affinity for O2 than H2 does (170 kcal per mole as > >opposed to 135 Kcal per mole) once you take the oxidation layer off of > >the aluminum it could strip O2 from water without any added energy. > >Interesting. > >MJ > [snip] > Correct, and this might make aluminium a useful energy carrier, but not a > primary energy source. Try working out the cost of aluminium as a fuel, > compared to the cost of gasoline. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 18:58:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA22872; Sat, 13 May 2000 18:58:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 18:58:05 -0700 From: DEADWATE@aol.com Message-ID: <46.54f115b.264f621e@aol.com> Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 21:57:50 EDT Subject: Re: High Voltage electrolysis experiments... To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 101 Resent-Message-ID: <"KGWu22.0.Cb5.iWW7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15062 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A flourescent tube is basically a mercury rectifier, half wave. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 19:01:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA24067; Sat, 13 May 2000 19:01:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 19:01:08 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Water Car, gasoline, and $$. Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 12:00:14 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <391CF967.ED2DC0C2@layo.com> <391D87B4.D6531E9E@csrlink.net> <8nirhs0vhfeepf73l829b7e3p8mq34tqg8@4ax.com> <391DEAE5.89A4735B@csrlink.net> In-Reply-To: <391DEAE5.89A4735B@csrlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA24033 Resent-Message-ID: <"LEV8d1.0.yt5.aZW7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15063 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 13 May 2000 19:53:09 -0400, Mike Johnston wrote: [snip] > I'm still not sure about 1)the amount of electricity they are using >2) the manner in which the electricity is produced and 3)the mpg that is >claimed for the vehicle. > Have you ever looked at it? [snip] I looked at the layo page and ran some simple calculations, but found the data to be apparently self contradictory, so I gave up on it until they get their act together. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 19:03:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA25097; Sat, 13 May 2000 19:03:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 19:03:13 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: High Voltage electrolysis experiments... Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 12:02:20 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <46.54f115b.264f621e@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <46.54f115b.264f621e@aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA25066 Resent-Message-ID: <"1ogWu3.0.z76.WbW7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15064 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 13 May 2000 21:57:50 EDT, DEADWATE@aol.com wrote: >A flourescent tube is basically a mercury rectifier, half wave. I wondered about that, but can find no asymmetry in the tube, so how does it "know" in which direction to conduct? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 19:47:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA01661; Sat, 13 May 2000 19:46:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 19:46:51 -0700 Message-ID: <000e01bfbd4e$daa66560$0200a8c6@stealth> From: "R.U. Sirius" To: Subject: Re: How to get water to flow uphill Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 22:48:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"_AbHI.0.sP.REX7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15065 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I don't claim to be a physics genius, but I guess the way I look at it is this. You speak of using the pressure the air is exerting on the water (in your "basin") to take the "load" off the pump. My analogy to this would be to think of it this way. You have no problem sucking water from a glass up a straw right? What happens if you make the straw 2 stories high? You'll probably never be able to suck hard enough to get the water to the top right? Okay, now, your answer to this would be instead of putting the 2 story high straw in a glass, put it in a swimming pull or something right? (I think I understand what you were trying to say in your message?) But think of this, suppose you put that same 2 story straw into the ocean. Considering the surface area of an ocean, you should have TREMENDOUS helping to push the water up the straw. My guess though however, is that it would be just as hard to suck the water up 2 stories from the ocean as it would be from a bucket. Again, i'm not a physics major so i'm not sure about the math behind all this, but i'm pretty sure it's still going to require a huge amount of work to move the water up that high. I'm very interested in your comments on this. Hope I'm wrong! -----Original Message----- From: Mike Johnston To: Michael S. Johnston Date: Saturday, May 13, 2000 4:41 PM Subject: How to get water to flow uphill >Hi All, > I'd like to see if the water tower drawing has any chance whatsoever >of working in the real world. The drawing represents the furthest that I >could take the idea relying solely on the capacity of my own brain. >Normally I could have done better but after that accident I had a lot of >brain damage and so I can only function at about an IQ of 145 now. Sad I >know, just think about what I could have done... > Let's take a look at the various components of the Water Tower >device that I mailed in to the lists. I didn't think that there would be >this much debate about the more obvious features of it but since there >has been ok, I'll put up or shut up. Either way will be a surprise to me >as I haven't worked it out yet either. > First I want to consider the fuel return system. This would consist >of the catch basin under the last water wheel, the tube/pipe that >stretches from the catch basin up to the pump at the top of the tank (at >the top of the system) and the pump itself. > In the responses that I got to the original post the main argument >has been that it takes just as much power to get the water back to the >top as what you could get out of it on the way down. This is true. I >don't have any problem with that statement. Unfortunately, in the >context it is used, it ignores the fact that there are quite a few ways >to modify the way in which you apply or create power. That is the >problem. > In this case you have a given quantity of water that you want to >move from point a to point b at a specific rate of flow. To do this a >certain amount of work, in the form of an upward push or pull, is >necessary. We don't have to worry yet about what the water has done or >can do on it's way down from the holding tank. That can be addressed >later. For now let's just figure out the easiest way to get the water up >there. > So how do we do it? Do we create a race of cyborg slaves to run up >and down several flights of steps with teacups full of water? Or maybe >we could form an old fashioned "bucket brigade"? Or perhaps we could >stretch a rope from the catch basin back to the tank on top and let the >water "wick" it's way up? Or we could pump it. > I guess we'll work with pumping it because that is the way I designed >it. Besides you'd have to feed the cyborgs anyway. The main objections >have been that pumping it requires a lot of energy. I agree. If the pump >was in the catch basin at the bottom it would have to pump up against >the column of water in the tube/pipe and the taller the column was the >more the water in it would weigh and the harder it would have to pump >and the more energy that would be required to get it up to where you >want it to do your work. > This argument is, as I said, valid. It is very simple. However it >totally misses the point. That is really it's major drawback. I designed >this whole thing to be simple enough that anyone who has ever taken high >school physics could understand it. But apparently some people don't. Oh >well, if I have to explain it point by point I will. > If we take our basic physics books and turn to the section that >deals with the properties of gasses we will learn about air pressure. >The way that we can use air pressure to help us move the water is in >there. We see that air pressure is 14.7 pounds sq/in. This means that >air is pushing on everything and unless there was an equal force pushing >back you would either explode or implode. > Let's consider a barometer. From studying it we learn that if a >long vertical tube is inserted into a liquid and the air is pumped from >the top of the tube the liquid will be pushed up into the tube by the >force of the air pressure pushing on the surface of the water in the >vessel below (the catch basin). The liquid will rise until the pressure >in the remaining air in the tube is equal to the air pressure outside >the tube at that height. If there is no air remaining in the tube the >liquid will rise as far as the pressure on the surface below will allow >it to. > In other words if there is 10 pounds pushing from below then 10 >pounds of liquid will rise into the vacuum tube. To actually figure out >the amount of push you can get from below you need to do some math. We >need to multiply standard air pressure by the surface dimensions of the >catch basin (in inches). Let's do an example. If our catch basin is ten >feet by five feet our problem would look like this: >(14.7 lb/in2)(120")(60")= 105,840 pounds of pressure pushing down on the >surface of the catch basin. > How can we use this force? Can we use it? Sure we can! Does anyone >know about hydraulics? Well that is sort of like this except in reverse. >We are going from a large area to a small one. We do have a closed >system from the basin up to the pump which sucks the air out of the >pipe/tube. So then whatever force is exerted on the surface of the water >in our basin would be transmitted equally to all parts of the system, >including the water in the tube, due to the lack of air pressure within >the tube. By this reasoning a column of water could enter the tube and >rise up into the tube as far as it can until it is exerting a force of >105,840 pounds back down. Depending on the diameter of the tube this >could be quite high! > For example, a cubic foot of water weighs 67 pounds. If we had a >pipe with a diameter of twelve inches we could divide the 105,840 pounds >of pressure by 67 pounds per cubic foot and see that we could support a >column of water 12 inches wide by 12 inches high (a rough cubic foot) >1579.7014 feet into the air, just by maintaining that vacuum! You can >put quite a few water wheels in 1579.7014 feet of space. > So if, by this method, we figure how high we want to raise the >water and build our catch basin with the proper dimensions and get a >pump that can move water at the rate we need then your pump would >technically be working no harder at raising the water and pumping it >through itself than it would be if it were simply transferring water >between two tanks that were both on the ground. By using air pressure to >help us we have effectively negated the forces of gravity! > See? I'm not making any great revelations here. I am simply using >undeniably known physical laws. In this case it does indeed require >energy to run the pump that moves water uphill. The advantage is that by >using air pressure to help us we can use a pump that requires much LESS >energy than otherwise. > Are we ok with the fuel recovery system now? I hope so! > Next Installment: The holding tank and first turbine. > MJ >P.S: For a real world example, this process is used to unload ships and >railcars full of sand or grain. A pipe is put into the material and a >blower motor sucks air out of the pipe. The material is transferred this >way. You'd be surprised how fast you can move 50,000 pounds of grain. > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 20:05:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA06429; Sat, 13 May 2000 20:04:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 20:04:57 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: How to get water to flow uphill Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 13:04:05 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <000e01bfbd4e$daa66560$0200a8c6@stealth> In-Reply-To: <000e01bfbd4e$daa66560$0200a8c6@stealth> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA06405 Resent-Message-ID: <"gEH8J2.0.Ma1.PVX7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15066 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 13 May 2000 22:48:12 -0400, R.U. Sirius wrote: [snip] >from a bucket. Again, i'm not a physics major so i'm not sure about the >math behind all this, but i'm pretty sure it's still going to require a huge >amount of work to move the water up that high. I'm very interested in your >comments on this. Hope I'm wrong! [snip] No, you are correct. The force pushing the water up the straw is equal to the pressure on the surface of the water, multiplied by *the area of the cross section of the straw*, and has nothing whatever to do with the area of the water surface outside the straw. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 21:30:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA23225; Sat, 13 May 2000 21:30:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 21:30:34 -0700 Message-ID: <391E1E6D.EB0C325@csrlink.net> Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 23:33:01 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: How to get water to flow uphill References: <000e01bfbd4e$daa66560$0200a8c6@stealth> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"5PawK2.0.hg5.glY7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15067 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Robin, The pressure on which water? If you have a vacuum in the tube (zero air pressure) then what pressure do you multiply by the cross section of the area of the tube? Second, how can you get grain to go up a tube so fast just by lowering the pressure in the tube (not a vacuum)? I know that works. MJ Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > No, you are correct. The force pushing the water up the straw is equal to > the pressure on the surface of the water, multiplied by *the area of the > cross section of the straw*, and has nothing whatever to do with the area of > the water surface outside the straw. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 21:43:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA26806; Sat, 13 May 2000 21:42:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 21:42:34 -0700 Message-ID: <002b01bfbd1c$d91aa800$daa134d1@a9o0z0> From: "Alik S" To: Subject: Re: Water Car, gasoline, and $$. Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 20:50:17 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"TQQvY2.0.gY6.wwY7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15068 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Around 1987 in Vancouver there was an outfit called First Plasmic Corp that was going to use a roll of Al wire in a tank of water to make hydrogen. Their bright idea was to sell aluminum-oxide for ceramic manufacture and other industrial uses. The whole thing died. Alik S. Try working out the cost of aluminium as a fuel, >compared to the cost of gasoline. > > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 22:18:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA01270; Sat, 13 May 2000 22:18:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 22:18:02 -0700 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: How to get water to flow uphill Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 01:31:27 -0400 Message-ID: <20000514053127656.AAA334@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"qnabe3.0.lJ.9SZ7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15069 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: MJ writes: > MJ >P.S: For a real world example, this process is used to unload ships and >railcars full of sand or grain. A pipe is put into the material and a >blower motor sucks air out of the pipe. The material is transferred this >way. You'd be surprised how fast you can move 50,000 pounds of grain. Hi Mike, We pumped large, live fish out of the holding tanks on fishing boats and onto processor boats this way as well, in roughly the same lot size that you mention. We had clear plastic 12" diameter tubing on parts of the fish pump on the Polar Bear so we could see the expression on the "faces" of the salmon as they were making there way through the tubes. Most of these fish were around 14lbs., and about 2 foot long. It was pretty wild. I've had to rebuild those types of pumps, and they have to be perfect to function with even poor efficiency. The one we had was powered by a 3-phase 25hp motor, and required _a lot_ of juice to make it pull a vac on that size of hose. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 23:06:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA11110; Sat, 13 May 2000 23:05:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 23:05:33 -0700 Message-ID: <01BFBD30.0BC409A0@istf-1-50.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: How to get water to flow uphill Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 23:07:36 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BFBD30.0BC59040" Resent-Message-ID: <"0LDG51.0.Vj2.j8a7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15070 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------ =_NextPart_000_01BFBD30.0BC59040 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike, I know you really want your idea to work. But that vacuum that you're = relying on is going to take energy to create. And I think if you were to = do the experiment, you would find that it would take as much energy to = create that vacuum as it would to lift an equal volume of water any = other way. In your example of the grain going up a tube with lowered air pressure, = it's basically the same story: there is a pump (in this case an air = pump, or fan) at the top of the tube that creates the pressure = differential, and that pump takes energy to run. Now, here's a side track for you: what happens if you increase the = height of your lifting tube by a whole lot? The drop in pressure that = you need to lift the water will become greater, so the pressure at the = top of the water column will get smaller and smaller. At a given = temperature, say 20 degrees C, at what pressure does water boil? Dan Quickert -----Original Message----- From: Mike Johnston=20 Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2000 8:33 PM To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: How to get water to flow uphill Hi Robin, The pressure on which water? If you have a vacuum in the tube (zero air pressure) then what pressure do you multiply by the cross section of the area of the tube? Second, how can you get grain to go up a tube so fast just by lowering the pressure in the tube (not a vacuum)? I know that works. 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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 102 Resent-Message-ID: <"SAcSr1.0.163.3Ea7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15071 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 5/11/00 6:51:15 PM Central Daylight Time, rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au writes: > You don't happen to have been born on Krypton do you? Robin, I was born in Memphis Tennessee in 1948, shortly after that I moved to Krypton. Thanks, Butch From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 23:15:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA13497; Sat, 13 May 2000 23:14:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 23:14:40 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: How to get water to flow uphill Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 16:13:47 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <000e01bfbd4e$daa66560$0200a8c6@stealth> <391E1E6D.EB0C325@csrlink.net> In-Reply-To: <391E1E6D.EB0C325@csrlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA13453 Resent-Message-ID: <"4lOXE.0.gI3.DHa7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15072 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 13 May 2000 23:33:01 -0400, Mike Johnston wrote: >Hi Robin, > The pressure on which water? If you have a vacuum in the tube (zero >air pressure) then what pressure do you multiply by the cross section of >the area of the tube? > Second, how can you get grain to go up a tube so fast just by >lowering the pressure in the tube (not a vacuum)? I know that works. >MJ Air pressure. Usually about 1 atm. at sea level. If you have a vacuum in the tube, then the difference will be 1 atm, and you will be able to lift water to a height of 1 atm / (density of water x g) = 10.3 m. (g is the acceleration of gravity at the the surface of the Earth, about 9.8 m/sec^2). Actually, not really this high because you can't draw a vacuum above water at room temperature, the water evaporates until the vapour pressure is that of water at room temp. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 00:30:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA23106; Sun, 14 May 2000 00:30:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 00:30:00 -0700 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: RE: How to get water to flow uphill Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 03:43:28 -0400 Message-ID: <20000514074328171.AAA377@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"qoAcg2.0.xe5.uNb7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15073 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dan writes: >Now, here's a side track for you: what happens if you increase the height of your lifting tube by a whole lot? The drop in pressure that you need to lift the water will become greater, so the pressure at the top of the water column will get smaller and smaller. At a given temperature, say 20 degrees C, at what pressure does water boil? > >Dan Quickert You are right, and I meant to add this to the last post. There is a definite height limit on how long a suction line can be. I don't recall exactly what it is but I know it is under 30 feet. It is also a constant, I believe, that has nothing to do with the hose diameter. There are materials I think that can wick water up to a higher place, but I don't recall the specifics on those either. Basically, if you want to get water over 30 feet up, you have to push it up or it will boil off. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 00:42:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA25549; Sun, 14 May 2000 00:41:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 00:41:40 -0700 Sender: crusoe@eskimo.com Message-ID: <391E0672.4CB1AA59@worldnet.att.net> Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 20:50:42 -0500 From: Daniel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14-15mdk i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: How to get water to flow uphill References: <000e01bfbd4e$daa66560$0200a8c6@stealth> <391E1E6D.EB0C325@csrlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"qNv37.0.1F6.pYb7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15074 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Johnston wrote: > > Hi Robin, > The pressure on which water? If you have a vacuum in the tube (zero > air pressure) then what pressure do you multiply by the cross section of > the area of the tube? > Second, how can you get grain to go up a tube so fast just by > lowering the pressure in the tube (not a vacuum)? I know that works. > MJ > Geez.... Because the outside air pressure on the grain in the silo/boat forces it to try and fill the vaccum with something... In this case grain. Please read up some basic physics.... How do you think a straw works? You create a area of lower pressure on the top of the straw, outside air pressure forces the liquid up the straw and into your mouth. Now, lets say though you put the straw into a container of water, and seal the edges of the straw to the opening. Now try and suck. You'll notice that since air from outside can't rush into the container to fill the gap being produced between the liquid and top of the container, it becomes harder and harder to suck. Once the internal pressure of the can is equal to pressure in your mouth, you can't suck any more. Lets say we have 2 containers, one above the other, and 2 pipes connecting them in any fashion you want, as long as it's a complete loop. Everything is FULL of water, there are no air bubbles, and the system is sealed to the atmosphere, water and gas proof. Does the water flow in a loop? If so, how? We remove the top of the upper container. Does the water flow? We remove the top of the bottom container, does the water flow now? These should be faily obvious.... From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 01:47:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA03817; Sun, 14 May 2000 01:46:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 01:46:43 -0700 Message-ID: <01BFBD46.8F52C570@istf-1-50.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: How to get water to flow uphill Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 01:48:46 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BFBD46.8F52C570" Resent-Message-ID: <"Rcesp3.0.Yx.oVc7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15075 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------ =_NextPart_000_01BFBD46.8F52C570 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Daniel wrote: >Geez.... > >Because the outside air pressure on the grain in the silo/boat forces >it to try and fill the vaccum with something... In this case grain. > >Please read up some basic physics.... [snip] Yes, a point that could be emphasized. It's getting to where I wish = there were an entrance exam for this list... not rigorous, but just = basic stuff; or at least a prerequisite read of a FPAD file (Frequently = Proposed /Already Discussed). Dan Quickert ------ =_NextPart_000_01BFBD46.8F52C570 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IjUIAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAsAEAAAEAAAARAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAARwAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAGZyZWVucmctbEBlc2tp bW8uY29tAFNNVFAAZnJlZW5yZy1sQGVza2ltby5jb20AAB4AAjABAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAD MAEAAAAVAAAAZnJlZW5yZy1sQGVza2ltby5jb20AAAAAAwAVDAEAAAADAP4PBgAAAB4AATABAAAA FwAAACdmcmVlbnJnLWxAZXNraW1vLmNvbScAAAIBCzABAAAAGgAAAFNNVFA6RlJFRU5SRy1MQEVT S0lNTy5DT00AAAADAAA5AAAAAAsAQDoBAAAAAwBxOgAAAAAeAPZfAQAAABUAAABmcmVlbnJnLWxA ZXNraW1vLmNvbQAAAAACAfdfAQAAAEcAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDdAQ9UAgAAAABmcmVlbnJn LWxAZXNraW1vLmNvbQBTTVRQAGZyZWVucmctbEBlc2tpbW8uY29tAAADAP1fAQAAAAMA/18AAAAA AgH2DwEAAAAEAAAAAAAAAqhYAQSAAQAkAAAAUkU6IEhvdyB0byBnZXQgd2F0ZXIgdG8gZmxvdyB1 cGhpbGwATgwBBYADAA4AAADQBwUADgABADAALgAAAEkBASCAAwAOAAAA0AcFAA4AAQAoAAQAAAAX AQEJgAEAIQAAADExMDNFMDZFNTkyOUQ0MTE5QTE5OTA4MDlBMDAwMDAwALcGAQOQBgBYBQAAIgAA AAsAAgABAAAACwAjAAAAAAADACYAAAAAAAsAKQAAAAAAAwAuAAAAAAADADYAAAAAAEAAOQAA8U83 gb2/AR4AcAABAAAAJAAAAFJFOiBIb3cgdG8gZ2V0IHdhdGVyIHRvIGZsb3cgdXBoaWxsAAIBcQAB AAAAFgAAAAG/vYE3TG7gAxIpWRHUmhmQgJoAAAAAAB4AHgwBAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAfDAEA AAAXAAAAZGVxdWlja2VydEB1Y2RhdmlzLmVkdQAAAwAGEM+bzm4DAAcQZwEAAB4ACBABAAAAZQAA AERBTklFTFdST1RFOkdFRVpCRUNBVVNFVEhFT1VUU0lERUFJUlBSRVNTVVJFT05USEVHUkFJTklO VEhFU0lMTy9CT0FURk9SQ0VTSVRUT1RSWUFOREZJTExUSEVWQUNDVU1XSVQAAAAAAgEJEAEAAAAZ AgAAFQIAAKECAABMWkZ1KTiMn3cACgEDAfcgAqQD4wIAY4JoCsBzZXQwIAcTTQKAfQqACMggOwlv Msw1NQKACoF1YwBQCwPQbGkzNgFAYwBBC2BAbmcxMDMzC6YgLkQAcAiQAyB3A2B0ZT46CqIKhAsw E+AP4D5HWQngei4XURYEPheVQokFkGF1D7AgdGgY0G0IYHQAkAEAIAtwBcBw/wlwBBAIcBkRA6AY 8gnAC3FeIBshGPIAkAkALwbgYbMFQAIQcmMHkBeVaQVAJHRvGOByeRmgbmQvHFADEAMgGPJ2ANBj dXZtFZAdMGgbsANwD8BoZQuAZxdRIEkakgQAII8YkBjBGvMXjVBsZSDCJQlwYR3wdXAfUyBiSSDA aWMZ4Gh5I6FzyRdYW3MDAHBdFggKgNpZB5AsGaAZ4G8LgB1Bpw+ABUAFoHVsHfBiGNBsZW0j4COR egmAIBF0aicEIGcPwHQfwR1Sd+sZABpRSR8Bcx9AGPEaUf53KaIDkQnwHZAAcByQJ7A8eGEe8Bxh IFQTgHN0zR/ybhXAIqBpZwWwCGDlJjFiGUAgahiwBUAjhPUswHUBIDsZIAXAHDEiUs8FQCZhCXAJ cHF1BAAdMAkilW9mJlFGUEFEsx4CGNAoRjByKzFsHbAeUANgJoAPsB3wL0FseyKyHbBEBAAe0AQQ CYApJxeFFgQVMSBRMKBjay0EkHQWBBBxADcAAAAAAwAQEAAAAAADABEQAAAAAB4AQhABAAAAAQAA AAAAAAADAIAQ/////0AABzBwW9H/f72/AUAACDBwW9H/f72/AQsAAIAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABG AAAAAAOFAAAAAAAAAwABgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAEIUAAAAAAAADAAKACCAGAAAAAADA AAAAAAAARgAAAABShQAA8xUAAB4AA4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAFSFAAABAAAABQAAADgu MDQAAAAAAwAEgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAAYUAAAAAAAALAAWACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAA RgAAAAAOhQAAAAAAAAMABoAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAABGFAAAAAAAAAwAHgAggBgAAAAAA wAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAGIUAAAAAAAAeAAiACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAA2hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAA AAAAHgAJgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAN4UAAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4ACoAIIAYAAAAAAMAA AAAAAABGAAAAADiFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAD0AAQAAAAUAAABSRTogAAAAAAMADTT9NwAALBk= ------ =_NextPart_000_01BFBD46.8F52C570-- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 11:02:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA09259; Sun, 14 May 2000 11:01:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 11:01:38 -0700 Message-ID: <005f01bfbdce$5f96e360$f3d666ce@default> From: "Chris O'Barr" To: Subject: Re: How to get water to flow uphill Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 14:01:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"e6uWP3.0.YG2.1ek7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15076 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Archimedies screw? -----Original Message----- From: Dan Quickert To: 'freenrg-l@eskimo.com' Date: Sunday, May 14, 2000 4:48 AM Subject: RE: How to get water to flow uphill Daniel wrote: >Geez.... > >Because the outside air pressure on the grain in the silo/boat forces >it to try and fill the vaccum with something... In this case grain. > >Please read up some basic physics.... [snip] Yes, a point that could be emphasized. It's getting to where I wish there were an entrance exam for this list... not rigorous, but just basic stuff; or at least a prerequisite read of a FPAD file (Frequently Proposed /Already Discussed). Dan Quickert From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 11:23:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA15689; Sun, 14 May 2000 11:23:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 11:23:03 -0700 Message-ID: <391EEEA3.AED347A7@csrlink.net> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 14:21:23 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael S. Johnston" Subject: More Pipe Dreams Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"mXHiX3.0.2r3.7yk7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15077 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, Well, isn't this getting exciting? Now we have found that, although the vacuum pump will not pull water any higher than 30 feet it does have the interesting ability to spontaneously generate heat and boil the water into water vapor above that level. Fascinating. I suppose that, in order to preserve the vacuum, we could pump off that water vapor as steam right? Hmmmmm. God it's fun to be an idiot! Well then why not let the steam recondense in our holding tank at the top? hehe So there we CAN get water up to the top with a vacuum! hahahaha Or for that matter have a little turbine between the maximum water level in the pipe and the pump at the top and let the steam turn THAT turbine on it's way up? Hot steam works really well to turn turbines. Isn't air pressure helpful? Or maybe we could have some hot graphite rods in the tube and make water gas on the way past? C(s)+H2O(g)---------->CO(g)+4H2(g) 1000 C Then we could burn the water gas at the top before it goes into the holding tank and turn a turbine with that! Or even put some hot iron rods in after the carbon rods so that we could produce EVEN MORE H2!!! 3Fe(s)+4H2O(g)---------->Fe3O4(s)+4H2(g) 1000 C That way the water gas going past the remaining Fe3O4 will reduce it back to 3Fe(s)! As water gas is used to reduce Fe3O4 in just that way. Or we could even include some hot platinum after the iron rods because hydrogen compounds passing over hot platinum decompose and release H2(g) as a by product! This is mostly used to crack hydrocarbons to make gasoline but even in that usage H2 is a byproduct. There now. Look at all we have gotten done and we haven't even started to run the water downhill yet! Who said it takes just as much power to get it uphill as it does to get it downhill? Some people are so dumb. duhuh Then of course once we get it up top and recondensed we could drop it onto a water wheel in the top of the holding tank.... By the way, in the water gas example you notice that it calls for hot carbon right? Diamonds are pure carbon aren't they? What if you heated a diamond to 1000 C and ran steam across it? Would that decompose the diamond by stripping C atoms away from it to form CO and release H2 gas? My God, makes you wonder how we keep Hydrogen coupled up with ANYTHING doesn't it? MJ P.S. I love these little discussions. I start off simple till someone calls me stupid then I blind side them with more than they can handle.(snicker) From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 11:23:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA15912; Sun, 14 May 2000 11:23:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 11:23:22 -0700 Message-ID: <391EEF9E.3234EE1E@csrlink.net> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 14:25:34 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: How to get water to flow uphill References: <005f01bfbdce$5f96e360$f3d666ce@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"fB2Bp.0.Vu3.Pyk7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15078 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I didn't want to mention anything that ancient.... MJ Chris O'Barr wrote: > > Archimedies screw? > -----Original Message----- > From: Dan Quickert > To: 'freenrg-l@eskimo.com' > Date: Sunday, May 14, 2000 4:48 AM > Subject: RE: How to get water to flow uphill > > Daniel wrote: > >Geez.... > > > >Because the outside air pressure on the grain in the silo/boat forces > >it to try and fill the vaccum with something... In this case grain. > > > >Please read up some basic physics.... > [snip] > > Yes, a point that could be emphasized. It's getting to where I wish there > were an entrance exam for this list... not rigorous, but just basic stuff; > or at least a prerequisite read of a FPAD file (Frequently Proposed /Already > Discussed). > > Dan Quickert From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 11:46:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA24666; Sun, 14 May 2000 11:46:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 11:46:30 -0700 Message-ID: <000801bfbdd4$a3b185e0$f3d666ce@default> From: "Chris O'Barr" To: Subject: Re: How to get water to flow uphill Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 14:45:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"YMX0N2.0.I16.6Il7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15079 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Why? The wheel is ancient too... -----Original Message----- From: Mike Johnston To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Sunday, May 14, 2000 2:26 PM Subject: Re: How to get water to flow uphill >I didn't want to mention anything that ancient.... >MJ > >Chris O'Barr wrote: >> >> Archimedies screw? >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Dan Quickert >> To: 'freenrg-l@eskimo.com' >> Date: Sunday, May 14, 2000 4:48 AM >> Subject: RE: How to get water to flow uphill >> >> Daniel wrote: >> >Geez.... >> > >> >Because the outside air pressure on the grain in the silo/boat forces >> >it to try and fill the vaccum with something... In this case grain. >> > >> >Please read up some basic physics.... >> [snip] >> >> Yes, a point that could be emphasized. It's getting to where I wish there >> were an entrance exam for this list... not rigorous, but just basic stuff; >> or at least a prerequisite read of a FPAD file (Frequently Proposed /Already >> Discussed). >> >> Dan Quickert > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 11:50:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA26021; Sun, 14 May 2000 11:49:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 11:49:57 -0700 Message-ID: <004701bfbdd5$1efc5400$f3d666ce@default> From: "Chris O'Barr" To: Subject: Reich Cloudbuster Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 14:49:22 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0044_01BFBDB3.97646D00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"jqBnP3.0.SM6.LLl7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15080 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01BFBDB3.97646D00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What do you people know about cloudbusters? Do they really work? ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01BFBDB3.97646D00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
What do you people know about cloudbusters? Do they = really=20 work?
------=_NextPart_000_0044_01BFBDB3.97646D00-- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 12:05:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA30888; Sun, 14 May 2000 12:05:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 12:05:27 -0700 Message-ID: <391EF889.210E9D4@csrlink.net> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 15:03:37 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael S. Johnston" Subject: One more little jab... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"CLcPz1.0.WY7.sZl7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15081 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Again, Refer back to my last post and consider the fact that steam rises...without any help....(not to mention hydrogen)and so then the only power required to get that water to the top is the power necessary to maintain the vacuum with the water column at 30 feet... the steam will rise on up to be sucked out of the pipe on it's own.. hehehehahaha (who's the idiot NOW Bunky?) MJ Confucius say: Is hard for man to have vision when his head rammed so far up own ass. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 12:05:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA30942; Sun, 14 May 2000 12:05:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 12:05:32 -0700 Message-ID: <391EF89F.C63415EB@csrlink.net> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 15:03:59 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael S. Johnston" Subject: We're on a roll... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"olVai2.0.IZ7.yZl7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15082 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Again, So now we have decided that the best way to transport water up to the top of a tall tower is by getting it to change states and rise on it's own. Makes sense. What if we completely split it into H2 and O2 and let the H2 rise to the top and burn it to turn a turbine and then let the resulting steam condense and catch it in a large tank? THEN we use that water to turn a turbine with the resulting pressure head and THEN we run it through a series of water wheels, catch tanks and turbines? Are we STILL using as much power to get it up there as we get by bringing it down? After all we didn't use ANY power to get it up there now! You have to count the power used to separate it but if you do it with the hot carbon it won't add up to nearly as much as by electrolysis. Especially if you use the heat of combusting the H2 into steam to heat the carbon or iron or platinum or whatever. We're getting pretty damn close to something here. (Oh, excuse me. It's time for my medication. It is nice that the hospital let's me have a computer here in my little white room with the nice soft walls.) MJ From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 12:09:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA32358; Sun, 14 May 2000 12:07:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 12:07:11 -0700 Message-ID: <391EF9E4.784B2E5B@csrlink.net> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 15:09:24 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: How to get water to flow uphill References: <000801bfbdd4$a3b185e0$f3d666ce@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"W8PIw2.0.Vv7.Ubl7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15083 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, In theory maybe but now they cost $300 a piece! MJ Chris O'Barr wrote: > > Why? The wheel is ancient too... > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Johnston > To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com > Date: Sunday, May 14, 2000 2:26 PM > Subject: Re: How to get water to flow uphill > > >I didn't want to mention anything that ancient.... > >MJ > > > >Chris O'Barr wrote: > >> > >> Archimedies screw? > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Dan Quickert > >> To: 'freenrg-l@eskimo.com' > >> Date: Sunday, May 14, 2000 4:48 AM > >> Subject: RE: How to get water to flow uphill > >> > >> Daniel wrote: > >> >Geez.... > >> > > >> >Because the outside air pressure on the grain in the silo/boat forces > >> >it to try and fill the vaccum with something... In this case grain. > >> > > >> >Please read up some basic physics.... > >> [snip] > >> > >> Yes, a point that could be emphasized. It's getting to where I wish there > >> were an entrance exam for this list... not rigorous, but just basic > stuff; > >> or at least a prerequisite read of a FPAD file (Frequently Proposed > /Already > >> Discussed). > >> > >> Dan Quickert > > > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 12:42:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA10809; Sun, 14 May 2000 12:37:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 12:37:11 -0700 From: dtmiller@midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: More Pipe Dreams Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 19:37:23 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Reply-To: dtmiller@midiowa.net Message-ID: <3920fc5f.1090217@mail.midiowa.net> References: <391EEEA3.AED347A7@csrlink.net> In-Reply-To: <391EEEA3.AED347A7@csrlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA10777 Resent-Message-ID: <"95vc23.0.je2.d1m7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15084 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Aw, geeze, Mike, On Sun, 14 May 2000 14:21:23 -0400, Mike Johnston wrote: > Well, isn't this getting exciting? Now we have found that, although >the vacuum pump will not pull water any higher than 30 feet it does have >the interesting ability to spontaneously generate heat and boil the >water into water vapor above that level. Fascinating. Creating an area of lower pressure (NOT a vacuum) does NOT spontaneously generate heat. The heat is already in the water (or other liquid). Normal, sea level, air pressure keeps pushing against the water surface (and everything else) at about 15 pounds for every square inch of surface area. IOW, if your body has a surface area of 1000 square inches, there's 15,000 pound of pressure squeezing your body. Since there's normally 15 psi pushing against the water surface, few molecules of water can evaporate and become water vapor. When the air pressure is reduced, more and more molecules of water can evaporate from the water, until at some pressure (depending on the original temperature of the water), the evaporation gets to the point where the internal pressure of the water is greater than the air pressure pushing against the water surface. That's when boiling begins. (The other way to increase the internal pressure of the water is to raise it's temperature.) > I suppose that, in order to preserve the vacuum, we could pump off >that water vapor as steam right? Hmmmmm. God it's fun to be an idiot! Sure, but it still takes energy to do the pumping. Either that or heat energy to convert the water into steam. > Well then why not let the steam recondense in our holding tank at >the top? hehe So there we CAN get water up to the top with a vacuum! >hahahaha Takes energy. Whether a pump will use less energy than the heater that turns the water into steam depends on the specific design of the piping (insulation, internal pipe friction, etc.). Usually pumps are more efficient if all you want to do is move water. >P.S. I love these little discussions. I start off simple till someone >calls me stupid then I blind side them with more than they can >handle.(snicker) That's not what's happening here. Most people on this list know the basics of physics, at least. Levers, inclined planes, pressure, energy, etc. They can also do basic math regarding gravity, force, friction and so on. It's so abundantly obvious that your proposals won't work that most of the people who know a little physics won't bother responding. If you start talking about surface tension problems or polywater, then more people may pay attention. -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moines (CDP, KB0ZDF) From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 12:53:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA13777; Sun, 14 May 2000 12:47:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 12:47:26 -0700 From: dtmiller@midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: We're on a roll... Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 19:47:35 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Reply-To: dtmiller@midiowa.net Message-ID: <3922009e.2177130@mail.midiowa.net> References: <391EF89F.C63415EB@csrlink.net> In-Reply-To: <391EF89F.C63415EB@csrlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA13760 Resent-Message-ID: <"Qw8Ex1.0.AN3.DBm7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15085 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 14 May 2000 15:03:59 -0400, Mike Johnston wrote: > So now we have decided that the best way to transport water up to >the top of a tall tower is by getting it to change states and rise on >it's own. You've decided this, "we" haven't. Ask yourself, why does steam rise? Will it rise *by itself* inside a pipe? How much energy does it take to get water to change state to steam? How much energy is needed to get the steam to rise and where does it come from? >Makes sense. Not to me. >What if we completely split it into H2 and O2 How much energy does spitting water into H2 AND O2 take? >let the H2 rise to the top What will cause the H2 to rise? How much energy is needed? > burn it What is needed to burn H2? >to turn a turbine How much energy will burning H2 produce? >and then let the resulting steam condense How much energy will condensing steam release? >and catch it in a large tank? >THEN we use >that water to turn a turbine with the resulting pressure head What pressure head? How much pressure? >and THEN >we run it through a series of water wheels, catch tanks and turbines? How much energy is recovered? How much is wasted as heat (from friction)? > Are we STILL using as much power to get it up there as we get by >bringing it down? After all we didn't use ANY power to get it up there >now! Rough guess is that we'll use about 3 times the energy to get the water "up there" as we'll recover from the process. The extra power "disappears" as heat added to the environment (pumps heat up, motors heat up, pipes heat up, bearings heat up, etc.). >(Oh, excuse me. It's time for my medication. It is nice that the >hospital let's me have a computer here in my little white room with the >nice soft walls.) Can't disagree with that. -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moines (CDP, KB0ZDF) From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 15:04:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA18933; Sun, 14 May 2000 14:59:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 14:59:24 -0700 From: tgrimes1@juno.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 17:52:50 -0400 Subject: Re: How to get water to flow uphill Message-ID: <20000514.175304.-423161.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-3,5,7,9-11,13,15,17-19,23-24,40-44 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 Resent-Message-ID: <"Gs-nH1.0.jd4.y6o7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15086 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 14 May 2000 13:04:05 +1000 Robin van Spaandonk writes: > On Sat, 13 May 2000 22:48:12 -0400, R.U. Sirius wrote: > [snip] > >from a bucket. Again, i'm not a physics major so i'm not sure about the > >math behind all this, but i'm pretty sure it's still going to require a huge > >amount of work to move the water up that high. I'm very interested in your > >comments on this. Hope I'm wrong! > [snip] > No, you are correct. The force pushing the water up the straw is equal to > the pressure on the surface of the water, multiplied by *the area of the > cross section of the straw*, and has nothing whatever to do with the area of > the water surface outside the straw. It is interesting to note that the pressure exerted by a column of water is dependent only on its depth. So, the pressure needed to lift water to a certain height is the product of the density of water and the height desired. Using this information, we can calculate the highest column of water that can be drawn by vacuum (assuming ambient temperature of 25 C and ambient pressure of 1 atm = 760 torr): the vapor pressure of water at 25 C is 23.8 torr, so 23.8 torr is the hardest vacuum that can be drawn above water at that temperature (lower pressures will cause the water to boil until equilibrium, 23.8 torr in this case, is reached). It is easy to see, then, that the water column needs to provide 760 - 23.8 = 736.2 torr (which is 10 kPa = 10,000 kg/m^2) of pressure to balance the external pressure on the reservior. The density of water is 1,000 kg/m^3, so 1,000 * h = 10,000 (h being the height of the water column in meters). Solve for h and you get a maximum height of 10 m. If you had a water column 10 m tall with a cross-section area of A, the potential energy stored in the column would be 50 * A kJ. For example, if you were to take a straw 10 m tall with a cross-section of 2.0*10^-5 m^2 (a round straw with a diameter of 0.5 cm), the potential energy stored would be 9.8*10^-4 kJ = 0.98 J. -Tom Grimes mailto:tgrimes1@juno.com ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 15:05:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA22274; Sun, 14 May 2000 15:05:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 15:05:43 -0700 Message-ID: <391F22D9.6AE813D2@csrlink.net> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 18:04:09 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael S. Johnston" Subject: "The Rest of the Story" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"lJSwP2.0.xR5.tCo7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15087 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, Did we have fun? I did. Very simply, the Water Tower diagram was only half of the idea. I was playing. As I said it is simple though and may just put out more energy in electricity than what we have to put in without violating known principles of physics. Everybody knows how much power is required to electrolyze water right? And everyone knows that when you burn the products of that reaction together you get superheated steam right? ie: the energy released is equal to the energy required to cause the separation. Unfortunately there are losses and we cannot get it all back. Most of it perhaps (in a good system) but not all of it. Ok, so electrolyze your water at ground level (or below for that matter) and instead of burning your H2 right away send it up. Use a pipe or little balloons or whatever but since it is lighter than air (lighter than helium too) you can send it up for free. Imagine the Transporter on Star trek. We disassociate the water at ground level and send it's molecules up 10,000 feet for FREE. Once you get it up there you burn it and get superheated steam and turn your turbine to make electricity just like you would have at ground level. You recondense the steam (air is cold up there, should help) and catch it in a holding tank. You have now gotten MOST of the energy back that you invested. Instead of a tank of water at ground level now, as you would normally have, you have it 10,000 feet in the air. You got it there for free. You have 10,000 feet of DOWN to make more electricity with that water. Can you go Over Unity through the whole system? Enough so that you could get the whole world to realize that OU is possible? Would that realization spark a whole rash of more practical OU devices simply because people now believe it to be possible and not the dreams of slightly addled "inventor" wannabees? Maybe. Oh well, whatever. Later, MJ From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 15:08:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA23434; Sun, 14 May 2000 15:08:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 15:08:46 -0700 From: myagent2@home.com Message-ID: <008a01bfbdf1$29695480$0100a8c0@alsv1.occa.home.com> To: References: <391F22D9.6AE813D2@csrlink.net> Subject: Re: "The Rest of the Story" Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 15:10:06 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"l4CVh1.0._j5.jFo7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15088 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Clever. :) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Johnston" To: "Michael S. Johnston" Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2000 3:04 PM Subject: "The Rest of the Story" > Hi All, > Did we have fun? I did. > Very simply, the Water Tower diagram was only half of the idea. I was > playing. > As I said it is simple though and may just put out more energy in > electricity than what we have to put in without violating known > principles of physics. > Everybody knows how much power is required to electrolyze water > right? And everyone knows that when you burn the products of that > reaction together you get superheated steam right? ie: the energy > released is equal to the energy required to cause the separation. > Unfortunately there are losses and we cannot get it all back. Most of > it perhaps (in a good system) but not all of it. > Ok, so electrolyze your water at ground level (or below for that > matter) and instead of burning your H2 right away send it up. Use a pipe > or little balloons or whatever but since it is lighter than air (lighter > than helium too) you can send it up for free. Imagine the Transporter on > Star trek. We disassociate the water at ground level and send it's > molecules up 10,000 feet for FREE. > Once you get it up there you burn it and get superheated steam and > turn your turbine to make electricity just like you would have at ground > level. You recondense the steam (air is cold up there, should help) and > catch it in a holding tank. You have now gotten MOST of the energy back > that you invested. Instead of a tank of water at ground level now, as > you would normally have, you have it 10,000 feet in the air. You got it > there for free. > You have 10,000 feet of DOWN to make more electricity with that > water. Can you go Over Unity through the whole system? Enough so that > you could get the whole world to realize that OU is possible? > Would that realization spark a whole rash of more practical OU > devices simply because people now believe it to be possible and not the > dreams of slightly addled "inventor" wannabees? Maybe. > Oh well, whatever. > Later, > MJ > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 15:10:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA23992; Sun, 14 May 2000 15:09:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 15:09:51 -0700 Sender: crusoe@eskimo.com Message-ID: <391ED1D3.FAF6977C@worldnet.att.net> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 11:18:27 -0500 From: Daniel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14-15mdk i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: More Pipe Dreams References: <391EEEA3.AED347A7@csrlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"SaRcr2.0.ns5.lGo7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15089 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Johnston wrote: > > Hi All, > Well, isn't this getting exciting? Now we have found that, although > the vacuum pump will not pull water any higher than 30 feet it does have > the interesting ability to spontaneously generate heat and boil the > water into water vapor above that level. Fascinating. ARGH! You have never worked with a vacuum have you? If you decrease the air pressure above a liquid, the boiling point temperature of the liquid drops. So yes, at atmospheric pressure, if you were trying to use a pump to suck a column of water upward, the maximum vaccumn you could pull is limited by the point at which water would boil at that pressure and temperature. It's quite easy to make water boil at room temperature if you pull a hard enough vaccuum... ;) Daniel Joyce From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 15:12:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA25357; Sun, 14 May 2000 15:12:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 15:12:30 -0700 Sender: crusoe@eskimo.com Message-ID: <391ED284.B9366063@worldnet.att.net> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 11:21:24 -0500 From: Daniel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14-15mdk i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: One more little jab... References: <391EF889.210E9D4@csrlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"HyuGP1.0.5C6.DJo7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15090 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Johnston wrote: > > Hi Again, > Refer back to my last post and consider the fact that steam > rises...without any help....(not to mention hydrogen)and so then the > only power required to get that water to the top is the power necessary > to maintain the vacuum with the water column at 30 feet... the steam > will rise on up to be sucked out of the pipe on it's own.. > hehehehahaha (who's the idiot NOW Bunky?) > MJ > Confucius say: Is hard for man to have vision when his head rammed so > far up own ass. Ahh, but at the reduced pressur in the system, how do you get the steam to condense? ;) Remember, now that the water is boiling at room temperature, you need to condense it back to a liquid to fall. How do you do that? Chill it below room temperature. But you need cold. Assuming our system is well insulated, and we don't want to cheat by using outside temperature differentials ( which are an external source of power to our system ). Refridgeration takes energy. Back to square one. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 15:14:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA26304; Sun, 14 May 2000 15:14:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 15:14:08 -0700 Sender: crusoe@eskimo.com Message-ID: <391ED2D3.350A5282@worldnet.att.net> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 11:22:43 -0500 From: Daniel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14-15mdk i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: We're on a roll... References: <391EF89F.C63415EB@csrlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Rfpx03.0.uQ6.lKo7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15091 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Johnston wrote: > > Hi Again, > So now we have decided that the best way to transport water up to > the top of a tall tower is by getting it to change states and rise on > it's own. Makes sense. What if we completely split it into H2 and O2 and > let the H2 rise to the top and burn it to turn a turbine and then let > the resulting steam condense and catch it in a large tank? THEN we use > that water to turn a turbine with the resulting pressure head and THEN > we run it through a series of water wheels, catch tanks and turbines? > Are we STILL using as much power to get it up there as we get by > bringing it down? After all we didn't use ANY power to get it up there > now! Yes we did, a vaccuum pump takes power, or a pump takes power, or refridgeration takes power. Your choice of the three. Daniel From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 15:41:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA31806; Sun, 14 May 2000 15:28:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 15:28:31 -0700 Sender: crusoe@eskimo.com Message-ID: <391ED649.6BC13AFC@worldnet.att.net> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 11:37:29 -0500 From: Daniel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14-15mdk i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: "The Rest of the Story" References: <391F22D9.6AE813D2@csrlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_QNvn3.0.im7.EYo7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15092 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Johnston wrote: > > Hi All, > Did we have fun? I did. > Very simply, the Water Tower diagram was only half of the idea. I was > playing. > As I said it is simple though and may just put out more energy in > electricity than what we have to put in without violating known > principles of physics. > Everybody knows how much power is required to electrolyze water > right? And everyone knows that when you burn the products of that > reaction together you get superheated steam right? ie: the energy > released is equal to the energy required to cause the separation. > Unfortunately there are losses and we cannot get it all back. Most of > it perhaps (in a good system) but not all of it. > Ok, so electrolyze your water at ground level (or below for that > matter) and instead of burning your H2 right away send it up. Use a pipe > or little balloons or whatever but since it is lighter than air (lighter > than helium too) you can send it up for free. Imagine the Transporter on > Star trek. We disassociate the water at ground level and send it's > molecules up 10,000 feet for FREE. Well first lets clean this up at least.... We have 2 tanks, one for O2, one for H2, both 10,000 feet tall. We electrolyze water at the bottom, and put it in the tanks. At the top, we pump H2 and O2 out, burn it ( using a spark to ignite ), and use the combustion process itself to drive a steam turbine, or a internal combustion engine, then let the wate fall down through tubes and extra turbines back to the electrolyzer, right? And we use the falling water to gen more electricity, to drive the electrolyzer, and the spark igniter, okay? Now the problems! Lets assume our system is in on a airless rock, perfectly insulated ( no outside source of heat energy ) and is in a 1 g gravity field. 1) how do you get the steam to condense back to water? It won't unless you cool. But being insulated in a close system, you can't! Also, at 10000 feet up, the internal pressure of the device is so low you can't even force it to condense. Remember those 10,000 tall columns of gas? The bottom of the column is under all the pressure of the ga on top, so the electrolyzer must somehow FORCE the gas into the collumn. Like trying to add a book to a tall stack of them from underneath. Meanwhile, at the top, the gas pressure is less, so the turbine has pull hard and run compressor just to get enough gas to burn! ( more waste of energy ). You forget that in a g-field, a column of gas would behave like the earth's atmosphere ( that's all our atmosphere is, a large 'column' of gas ). So just as it's hard to breathe 10,000 feet up, it's had for the turbine to get the gas it needs. And just as it's harder to inflate a balloon at sea level than to inflate a balloon at 10,000 fleet, it's hard to add gas to the bottom of the column. Again, no net gain, lot of net losses.... Daniel Joyce From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 15:53:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA08800; Sun, 14 May 2000 15:46:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 15:46:24 -0700 From: Bmd2323@aol.com Message-ID: <5b.5d2d910.265086a3@aol.com> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 18:45:55 EDT Subject: Re: Reich Cloudbuster To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 105 Resent-Message-ID: <"2YBGz3.0.P92.0po7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15093 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: As with all things in these fields there's evidence that they do work and evidence that they don't. From what I've read, you can build one relatively easily and inexpensively. You can get basic information on the cloudbuster from nearly any website dedicated to Reich. You can order books on building them from the Reich Museum (they've got a website) or any number of other places. If nothing else, it'd make an interesting back yard sculpture to impress your neighbors with. Brian Drake From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 16:47:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA24295; Sun, 14 May 2000 16:47:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 16:47:18 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: One more little jab... Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 09:46:34 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <391EF889.210E9D4@csrlink.net> In-Reply-To: <391EF889.210E9D4@csrlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA24256 Resent-Message-ID: <"dR3Pj1.0.Rx5.6ip7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15094 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A On Sun, 14 May 2000 15:03:37 -0400, Mike Johnston wrote: >Hi Again, > Refer back to my last post and consider the fact that steam >rises...without any help....(not to mention hydrogen)and so then the >only power required to get that water to the top is the power necessary >to maintain the vacuum with the water column at 30 feet... the steam >will rise on up to be sucked out of the pipe on it's own.. [snip] I'm afraid it won't. Steam doesn't rise on it's own the way that you intend (exception follows below). It isn't an anti-gravity thing. It gets pushed up by cold air falling down around it. This only works, if the air can actually displace the steam. In the pipe you are talking about that can't happen, because the weight of the water has already compensated for all of the air pressure. Now that said, some vapour will indeed reach the top of the pipe, through diffusion. This results in the kinetic energy of the molecules being converted into potential energy, which means the temperature of the vapour will drop (temp. is a measure of the average kinetic energy of the molecules). This looks to me like it might be a way of converting environmental thermal energy into useful energy, but I'm probably wrong. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 18:03:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA15005; Sun, 14 May 2000 18:03:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 18:03:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 18:03:03 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FNRG]: TEST MESSAGE: subject line prefix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"JzEYd1.0.Mg3.Apq7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15097 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 14 May 2000, William Beaty wrote: > > test message only, kakworm virus rejector, should say [FNRG]: in subject > line Hey, does anyone find the [FNRG]: prefix useful? If so, I can leave it there permanently. Or maybe it should say "FNG:" to save characters. For those who haven't set up their mailers to auto-sort incoming messages into folders, the "FNG:" makes it easy to see which messages come from this list. ................................freenrg-L.................................... William Beaty bilb@eskimo.com EE/Programmer/exhibit-designer/science-nerd Moderator: FREENRG-L VORTEX-L TAOSHUM-L WEBHEAD-L http://www.eskimo.com/~bilb/freenrgl/flist.html Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com voice:206-781-3320 ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 18:10:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA18781; Sun, 14 May 2000 18:10:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 18:10:23 -0700 Message-ID: <391F4BE1.5D86FFF4@ihug.co.nz> Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 12:59:13 +1200 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"74b5F3.0.Cb4._vq7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15098 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: Re: [FNRG]: TEST MESSAGE: subject line prefix Status: O X-Status: FNG sounds good to me... William Beaty wrote: > On Sun, 14 May 2000, William Beaty wrote: > > > > test message only, kakworm virus rejector, should say [FNRG]: in subject > > line > > Hey, does anyone find the [FNRG]: prefix useful? If so, I can leave it > there permanently. Or maybe it should say "FNG:" to save characters. For > those who haven't set up their mailers to auto-sort incoming messages into > folders, the "FNG:" makes it easy to see which messages come from this > list. > > ................................freenrg-L.................................... > William Beaty bilb@eskimo.com EE/Programmer/exhibit-designer/science-nerd > Moderator: FREENRG-L VORTEX-L TAOSHUM-L WEBHEAD-L > http://www.eskimo.com/~bilb/freenrgl/flist.html > Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com voice:206-781-3320 > > ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science > Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 18:52:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA01317; Sun, 14 May 2000 18:51:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 18:51:44 -0700 Message-ID: <391F58AE.D0DB25D9@csrlink.net> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 21:53:50 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com References: <391F22D9.6AE813D2@csrlink.net> <008a01bfbdf1$29695480$0100a8c0@alsv1.occa.home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"dVhMJ1.0.QK.mWr7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15099 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: Re: "The Rest of the Story" Status: O X-Status: Hi My, Thanks. I get so few compliments. (sigh) ;-) MJ myagent2@home.com wrote: > > Clever. :) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Johnston" > To: "Michael S. Johnston" > Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2000 3:04 PM > Subject: "The Rest of the Story" > > > Hi All, > > Did we have fun? I did. > > Very simply, the Water Tower diagram was only half of the idea. I was > > playing. > > As I said it is simple though and may just put out more energy in > > electricity than what we have to put in without violating known > > principles of physics. > > Everybody knows how much power is required to electrolyze water > > right? And everyone knows that when you burn the products of that > > reaction together you get superheated steam right? ie: the energy > > released is equal to the energy required to cause the separation. > > Unfortunately there are losses and we cannot get it all back. Most of > > it perhaps (in a good system) but not all of it. > > Ok, so electrolyze your water at ground level (or below for that > > matter) and instead of burning your H2 right away send it up. Use a pipe > > or little balloons or whatever but since it is lighter than air (lighter > > than helium too) you can send it up for free. Imagine the Transporter on > > Star trek. We disassociate the water at ground level and send it's > > molecules up 10,000 feet for FREE. > > Once you get it up there you burn it and get superheated steam and > > turn your turbine to make electricity just like you would have at ground > > level. You recondense the steam (air is cold up there, should help) and > > catch it in a holding tank. You have now gotten MOST of the energy back > > that you invested. Instead of a tank of water at ground level now, as > > you would normally have, you have it 10,000 feet in the air. You got it > > there for free. > > You have 10,000 feet of DOWN to make more electricity with that > > water. Can you go Over Unity through the whole system? Enough so that > > you could get the whole world to realize that OU is possible? > > Would that realization spark a whole rash of more practical OU > > devices simply because people now believe it to be possible and not the > > dreams of slightly addled "inventor" wannabees? Maybe. > > Oh well, whatever. > > Later, > > MJ > > > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 19:17:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA07828; Sun, 14 May 2000 19:17:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 19:17:01 -0700 Message-ID: <001701bfbe13$949f7f00$b4d666ce@default> From: "Chris O'Barr" To: Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 22:16:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"aU-gX.0.9w1.Tur7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15100 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: Re: One more little jab... Status: O X-Status: We aren't here to insult each other Mr. Johnston... -----Original Message----- From: Mike Johnston To: Michael S. Johnston Date: Sunday, May 14, 2000 3:06 PM Subject: One more little jab... >Hi Again, > Refer back to my last post and consider the fact that steam >rises...without any help....(not to mention hydrogen)and so then the >only power required to get that water to the top is the power necessary >to maintain the vacuum with the water column at 30 feet... the steam >will rise on up to be sucked out of the pipe on it's own.. >hehehehahaha (who's the idiot NOW Bunky?) >MJ >Confucius say: Is hard for man to have vision when his head rammed so >far up own ass. > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 19:22:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA10406; Sun, 14 May 2000 19:22:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 19:22:19 -0700 Message-ID: <002401bfbe14$51aed960$b4d666ce@default> From: "Chris O'Barr" To: Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 22:21:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"o5BpS3.0.QY2.Rzr7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15101 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: Re: "The Rest of the Story" Status: O X-Status: Don't be so pompous. And don't give me a witty comeback. We all know you're being pompous. -----Original Message----- From: Mike Johnston To: Michael S. Johnston Date: Sunday, May 14, 2000 6:08 PM Subject: "The Rest of the Story" >Hi All, > Did we have fun? I did. > Very simply, the Water Tower diagram was only half of the idea. I was >playing. > As I said it is simple though and may just put out more energy in >electricity than what we have to put in without violating known >principles of physics. > Everybody knows how much power is required to electrolyze water >right? And everyone knows that when you burn the products of that >reaction together you get superheated steam right? ie: the energy >released is equal to the energy required to cause the separation. > Unfortunately there are losses and we cannot get it all back. Most of >it perhaps (in a good system) but not all of it. > Ok, so electrolyze your water at ground level (or below for that >matter) and instead of burning your H2 right away send it up. Use a pipe >or little balloons or whatever but since it is lighter than air (lighter >than helium too) you can send it up for free. Imagine the Transporter on >Star trek. We disassociate the water at ground level and send it's >molecules up 10,000 feet for FREE. > Once you get it up there you burn it and get superheated steam and >turn your turbine to make electricity just like you would have at ground >level. You recondense the steam (air is cold up there, should help) and >catch it in a holding tank. You have now gotten MOST of the energy back >that you invested. Instead of a tank of water at ground level now, as >you would normally have, you have it 10,000 feet in the air. You got it >there for free. > You have 10,000 feet of DOWN to make more electricity with that >water. Can you go Over Unity through the whole system? Enough so that >you could get the whole world to realize that OU is possible? > Would that realization spark a whole rash of more practical OU >devices simply because people now believe it to be possible and not the >dreams of slightly addled "inventor" wannabees? Maybe. > Oh well, whatever. > Later, > MJ > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 19:26:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA11867; Sun, 14 May 2000 19:26:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 19:26:09 -0700 Message-ID: <391F60C2.73F3BAD6@csrlink.net> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 22:28:18 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: FNG: Re: One more little jab... References: <001701bfbe13$949f7f00$b4d666ce@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"tNJ053.0.Fv2.01s7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15102 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Just responding in kind. No hard feelings though 'k? hehe yuk yuk? ? MJ Chris O'Barr wrote: > > We aren't here to insult each other Mr. Johnston... > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Johnston > To: Michael S. Johnston > Date: Sunday, May 14, 2000 3:06 PM > Subject: One more little jab... > > >Hi Again, > > Refer back to my last post and consider the fact that steam > >rises...without any help....(not to mention hydrogen)and so then the > >only power required to get that water to the top is the power necessary > >to maintain the vacuum with the water column at 30 feet... the steam > >will rise on up to be sucked out of the pipe on it's own.. > >hehehehahaha (who's the idiot NOW Bunky?) > >MJ > >Confucius say: Is hard for man to have vision when his head rammed so > >far up own ass. > > > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 19:27:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA12267; Sun, 14 May 2000 19:26:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 19:26:54 -0700 Message-ID: <003501bfbe14$f4d9c8c0$b4d666ce@default> From: "Chris O'Barr" To: Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 22:26:19 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"hOEMY2.0.J_2.j1s7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15103 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: Re: Reich Cloudbuster Status: O X-Status: I live on a canal too... -----Original Message----- From: Bmd2323@aol.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Sunday, May 14, 2000 6:53 PM Subject: Re: Reich Cloudbuster >As with all things in these fields there's evidence that they do work and >evidence that they don't. From what I've read, you can build one relatively >easily and inexpensively. You can get basic information on the cloudbuster >from nearly any website dedicated to Reich. You can order books on building >them from the Reich Museum (they've got a website) or any number of other >places. If nothing else, it'd make an interesting back yard sculpture to >impress your neighbors with. > >Brian Drake > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 19:34:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA16184; Sun, 14 May 2000 19:33:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 19:33:53 -0700 Message-ID: <004801bfbe15$ee9cb020$b4d666ce@default> From: "Chris O'Barr" To: Subject: Re: FNG: Re: One more little jab... Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 22:33:18 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"VAiav1.0.iy3.G8s7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15104 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yah, ok... just be a little more humble. Can't you remember believing things in the past that you now believe to be false. You will probably experience that again in the future. And to end on a friendly note; I appreciate your contribution. -----Original Message----- From: Mike Johnston To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Sunday, May 14, 2000 10:27 PM Subject: Re: FNG: Re: One more little jab... >Just responding in kind. >No hard feelings though 'k? hehe yuk yuk? ? >MJ > >Chris O'Barr wrote: >> >> We aren't here to insult each other Mr. Johnston... >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Mike Johnston >> To: Michael S. Johnston >> Date: Sunday, May 14, 2000 3:06 PM >> Subject: One more little jab... >> >> >Hi Again, >> > Refer back to my last post and consider the fact that steam >> >rises...without any help....(not to mention hydrogen)and so then the >> >only power required to get that water to the top is the power necessary >> >to maintain the vacuum with the water column at 30 feet... the steam >> >will rise on up to be sucked out of the pipe on it's own.. >> >hehehehahaha (who's the idiot NOW Bunky?) >> >MJ >> >Confucius say: Is hard for man to have vision when his head rammed so >> >far up own ass. >> > >> > > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 19:35:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA16801; Sun, 14 May 2000 19:35:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 19:35:28 -0700 Message-ID: <391F62ED.8D7F2418@csrlink.net> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 22:37:33 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: FNG: Re: "The Rest of the Story" References: <002401bfbe14$51aed960$b4d666ce@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"PmE2H2.0.L64.k9s7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15105 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Huh? I am PLAYING. No wittiness there. What exactly does pompous mean to you? To me it is someone rich, like a king or something lording it over his people. Me? I'm a truck driver who barely graduated high school and sucked at math. Hardly pompous. Pompous is a person sitting somewhere surrounded by books and pretending that, because they have a head full of facts they are smart. Smart enough to judge other people's original ideas.But NO. Those are SOMEONE ELSE'S thoughts. Smart is ORIGINAL thought. I didn't say anything to anyone until they picked on me first. Now just because I'm a little better at comebacks than you are you want to hit me with a POMPOUS line like: Don't be so pompous. And don't give me a witty comeback. We all know > you're being pompous. Like your shit don't stink. MJ From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 19:42:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA19446; Sun, 14 May 2000 19:42:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 19:42:07 -0700 Message-ID: <391F647F.FC7D8D4B@csrlink.net> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 22:44:15 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com References: <391F22D9.6AE813D2@csrlink.net> <391ED649.6BC13AFC@worldnet.att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"JbsJn1.0.hl4._Fs7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15106 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: Re: "The Rest of the Story" Status: O X-Status: HI Dan, You are right! No wonder my car wouldn't start this morning! MJ > Again, no net gain, lot of net losses.... > > Daniel Joyce From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 22:09:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA27614; Sun, 14 May 2000 22:08:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 22:08:36 -0700 From: dtmiller@midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 05:08:53 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Reply-To: dtmiller@midiowa.net Message-ID: <3920776f.32594147@mail.midiowa.net> References: <391F22D9.6AE813D2@csrlink.net> In-Reply-To: <391F22D9.6AE813D2@csrlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id WAA27582 Resent-Message-ID: <"32q6Y1.0.Jl6.KPu7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15107 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: Re: "The Rest of the Story" Status: O X-Status: Hi Mike, On Sun, 14 May 2000 18:04:09 -0400, Mike Johnston wrote: > Unfortunately there are losses and we cannot get it all back. Most of >it perhaps (in a good system) but not all of it. We'll see. :) > Ok, so electrolyze your water at ground level (or below for that >matter) and instead of burning your H2 right away send it up. Use a pipe >or little balloons or whatever but since it is lighter than air (lighter >than helium too) you can send it up for free. Imagine the Transporter on >Star trek. We disassociate the water at ground level and send it's >molecules up 10,000 feet for FREE. You'll need something like balloons -- inside a pipe with lots of holes in it . A closed pipe won't work (the H2 has to be displaced by air or other gas which falls as the H2 balloons rise). H2 coming off an electrolizer is at the pressure of the surrounding air. There has to be a little pressurization to get the H2 into the balloons. You also have to take into consideration that the balloons must be allowed to expand as they rise -- or they'll stop rising when they reach an air density equal to the mass of the balloon for the same volume. An energy-using pump? > Once you get it up there you burn it and get superheated steam and >turn your turbine to make electricity just like you would have at ground >level. Burning is fine. But first you have to get the H2 out of the balloons and into some place you can have a controlled burn. That means an area of lower pressure than the balloons (remember, the balloons have expanded and are at a pressure equal to the surrounding air). That means something is needed to reduce the pressure of the holding tank (or increase the pressure on the balloons). An energy-using pump? >You recondense the steam (air is cold up there, should help) and >catch it in a holding tank. You have now gotten MOST of the energy back >that you invested. Instead of a tank of water at ground level now, as >you would normally have, you have it 10,000 feet in the air. You got it >there for free. Minus the pump energy. > You have 10,000 feet of DOWN to make more electricity with that >water. Can you go Over Unity through the whole system? Enough so that >you could get the whole world to realize that OU is possible? There's a good analysis of using a water holding tank to store the excess energy produced by wind generators (after all, if it's excess to current needs, it is, in effect, free). I'll look it up and post it. -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moines (CDP, KB0ZDF) From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 22:55:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA05974; Sun, 14 May 2000 22:55:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 22:55:06 -0700 Message-Id: <200005150555.WAA17219@mail.eskimo.com> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 22:58:55 -0700 (PDT) From: warlock@eskimo.com Reply-To: warlock@eskimo.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <391EEEA3.AED347A7@csrlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"QLd6-1.0.6T1.w4v7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15108 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: Re: More Pipe Dreams Status: O X-Status: On 14 May, Mike Johnston wrote: > Hi All, > Well, isn't this getting exciting? Now we have found that, although > the vacuum pump will not pull water any higher than 30 feet it does have > the interesting ability to spontaneously generate heat and boil the > water into water vapor above that level. Fascinating. It doesn't generate heat, it reduces the temperature required for the water to vapourize. The water will boil at less than 100degC at low pressure, > I suppose that, in order to preserve the vacuum, we could pump off > that water vapor as steam right? Hmmmmm. God it's fun to be an idiot! > Well then why not let the steam recondense in our holding tank at > the top? hehe So there we CAN get water up to the top with a vacuum! > hahahaha you have to pump the steam *into* the holding tank, because in order for the steam to condense, it must be under pressure, going from the low pressure column, to the (relatively) high pressure tank takes energy. > Or for that matter have a little turbine between the maximum water > level in the pipe and the pump at the top and let the steam turn THAT > turbine on it's way up? Hot steam works really well to turn turbines. > Isn't air pressure helpful? The steam isn't hot. > Or maybe we could have some hot graphite rods in the tube and make > water gas on the way past? > C(s)+H2O(g)---------->CO(g)+4H2(g) > 1000 C > Then we could burn the water gas at the top before it goes into the > holding tank and turn a turbine with that! > Or even put some hot iron rods in after the carbon rods so that we > could produce EVEN MORE H2!!! > 3Fe(s)+4H2O(g)---------->Fe3O4(s)+4H2(g) > 1000 C > That way the water gas going past the remaining Fe3O4 will reduce > it back to 3Fe(s)! As water gas is used to reduce Fe3O4 in just that > way. > Or we could even include some hot platinum after the iron rods > because hydrogen compounds passing over hot platinum decompose and > release H2(g) as a by product! This is mostly used to crack hydrocarbons > to make gasoline but even in that usage H2 is a byproduct. > There now. Look at all we have gotten done and we haven't even > started to run the water downhill yet! Who said it takes just as much > power to get it uphill as it does to get it downhill? Some people are so > dumb. duhuh > Then of course once we get it up top and recondensed we could drop > it onto a water wheel in the top of the holding tank.... > By the way, in the water gas example you notice that it calls for > hot carbon right? Diamonds are pure carbon aren't they? What if you > heated a diamond to 1000 C and ran steam across it? Would that decompose > the diamond by stripping C atoms away from it to form CO and release H2 > gas? > My God, makes you wonder how we keep Hydrogen coupled up with > ANYTHING doesn't it? > MJ > P.S. I love these little discussions. I start off simple till someone > calls me stupid then I blind side them with more than they can > handle.(snicker) Someone has been blindsided all right... -- Jim Richardson Anarchist, pagan and proud of it WWW.eskimo.com/~warlock Linux, because life's too short for a buggy OS. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 22:56:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA06515; Sun, 14 May 2000 22:56:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 22:56:10 -0700 Message-Id: <200005150556.WAA17256@mail.eskimo.com> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 22:59:59 -0700 (PDT) From: warlock@eskimo.com Reply-To: warlock@eskimo.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <391ED1D3.FAF6977C@worldnet.att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"8Da2_2.0.eb1.w5v7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15109 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: Re: More Pipe Dreams Status: O X-Status: On 14 May, Daniel wrote: > Mike Johnston wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> Well, isn't this getting exciting? Now we have found that, although >> the vacuum pump will not pull water any higher than 30 feet it does have >> the interesting ability to spontaneously generate heat and boil the >> water into water vapor above that level. Fascinating. > > > ARGH! > > You have never worked with a vacuum have you? > > If you decrease the air pressure above a liquid, the boiling point > temperature of the liquid drops. > > So yes, at atmospheric pressure, if you were trying to use a pump to > suck a column of water upward, the maximum vaccumn you could pull is > limited by the point at which water would boil at that pressure and > temperature. > > It's quite easy to make water boil at room temperature if you pull a > hard enough vaccuum... ;) > > > Daniel Joyce not too mention that it makes a dandy still :) -- Jim Richardson Anarchist, pagan and proud of it WWW.eskimo.com/~warlock Linux, because life's too short for a buggy OS. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 00:15:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA21663; Mon, 15 May 2000 00:14:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 00:14:37 -0700 Message-Id: <200005150714.AAA19291@mail.eskimo.com> Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 00:18:32 -0700 (PDT) From: warlock@eskimo.com Reply-To: warlock@eskimo.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <391EF889.210E9D4@csrlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"UIVx91.0.KI5.TFw7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15110 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: Re: One more little jab... Status: O X-Status: On 14 May, Mike Johnston wrote: > Hi Again, > Refer back to my last post and consider the fact that steam > rises...without any help....(not to mention hydrogen)and so then the > only power required to get that water to the top is the power necessary > to maintain the vacuum with the water column at 30 feet... the steam > will rise on up to be sucked out of the pipe on it's own.. > hehehehahaha (who's the idiot NOW Bunky?) The steam rises because it displaces more volume per unit mass than the air it rises through, Absent any air, why would it rise? > MJ > Confucius say: Is hard for man to have vision when his head rammed so > far up own ass. Confucius say, read more physics texts books and less comic books. -- Jim Richardson Anarchist, pagan and proud of it WWW.eskimo.com/~warlock Linux, because life's too short for a buggy OS. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 00:43:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA26048; Mon, 15 May 2000 00:43:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 00:43:24 -0700 Message-ID: <20000515074253.22354.qmail@web4406.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 00:42:53 -0700 (PDT) From: harvey norris To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-596516649-958376573=:20010" Resent-Message-ID: <"q8JSg3.0.rM6.Sgw7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15111 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: Water arc/question on URL's Status: O X-Status: --0-596516649-958376573=:20010 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The following is a letter to a discussion list where I forwarded a URL that shows a digital picture, or so I thought! First I pasted it to address on Exployer and it opened to show the picture, before sending the letter to list. I did this to make sure it was a working URL But when I tried accessing this same URL from the return letter, it did not work. Anyone have any clues?http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/LaGrangeLn/teslafy/Dzl9044.jpghas been placed on the snapshots pagehttp://msnhomepages.talkcity.com /LaGrangeLn/teslafy/Analomous.html linked to the previous icon at bottom of page.This is the resurrection of the needle glow discharge experiment, and the above is an unsuccessful attempt at producing it. The input is 464 volts at maximum .65 amp amperage measurement on the transfomers secondary. The needle glow discharge experiment caused the needle to heat near incandescence, offering a dim light bulb out of a glass of water, with only . 40 ma secondary consumption! I think, or hope that I know what I a m doing enough to reproduce that again, but these are pictures along the way back there.I finally now realize that every time I place a digital photo on theweb page site manager, it is available to everyone on the internet as a file name. Duh! Am I comp uter illiterate or what? (Apparently this second sending to another disc. list for answer indicates this answer is in the affirmative)This first photo file is made from the third method where the aluminum foil is immersed in water, with the needle some 5 cm away, and the magnet underneath the glass. The arcing does not strike the foil, but arcs to the water in a noisy sporiadic fashion, not in a more continuous fashion as the other more tamed down version where the glass dielectric becomes the return path . It seems possible that the magnet may inhibit the arcing to the foil, which may be too far away for a direct discharge anyways.That can be the next photo where 0.3ma is conducted through the glassat the 464 volt input. See messageboard for details.Tha nx for any answers on the URL question, as for the arcing I am dubious. HDNBinary Resonant Systemhttp://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb124201 Binary Resonant Systemhttp://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb124201 --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. --0-596516649-958376573=:20010 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii The following is a letter to a discussion list where I forwarded a URL that shows a digital picture, or so I thought! First I pasted it to address on Exployer and it opened to show the picture, before sending the letter to list. I did this to make sure it was a working URL But when I tried accessing this same URL from the return letter, it did not work. Anyone have any clues? http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/LaGrangeLn/teslafy/Dzl9044.jpg has been placed on the snapshots page http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/LaGrangeLn/teslafy/Analomous.html linked to the previous icon at bottom of page. This is the resurrection of the needle glow discharge experiment, and the above is an unsuccessful attempt at producing it. The input is 464 volts at maximum .65 amp amperage measurement on the transfomers secondary. The needle glow discharge experiment c aused the needle to heat near incandescence, offering a dim light bulb out of a glass of water, with only . 40 ma secondary consumption! I think, or hope that I know what I am doing enough to reproduce that again, but these are pictures along the way back there. I finally now realize that every time I place a digital photo on theweb page site manager, it is available to everyone on the internet as a file name. Duh! Am I computer illiterate or what? (Apparently this second sending to another disc. list for answe r indicates this answer is in the affirmative)This first photo file is made from the third method where the aluminum foil is immersed in water, with the needle some 5 cm away, and the magnet underneath the glass. The arcing does not strike the foil, but a rcs to the water in a noisy sporiadic fashion, not in a more continuous fashion as the other more tamed down version where the glass dielectric becomes the return path. It seems possible that the magnet may inhibit the arcing to the foil, which may be to o far away for a direct discharge anyways.That can be the next photo where 0.3ma is conducted through the glassat the 464 volt input. See messageboard for details. Thanx for any answers on the URL question, as for the arcing I am dubious. HDN Binary Resonant System http://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb124201

Binary Resonant System http://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb124201


Do You Yahoo!?
Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. --0-596516649-958376573=:20010-- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 01:13:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA30971; Mon, 15 May 2000 01:13:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 01:13:11 -0700 Message-ID: <391FB2B3.357A578E@netzero.net> Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 01:17:55 -0700 From: blue_eyes X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"qYTLQ3.0.cZ7.L6x7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15112 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: Re: [FNRG]: TEST MESSAGE: subject line prefix Status: O X-Status: Hello, Living,Breathing,Usefull Folks, No, not yet, but humm a few bars, and I shall get the hang of it. David William Beaty wrote: > > On Sun, 14 May 2000, William Beaty wrote: > > > > test message only, kakworm virus rejector, should say [FNRG]: in subject > > line > > Hey, does anyone find the [FNRG]: prefix useful? > > ................................freenrg-L.................................... > William Beaty bilb@eskimo.com EE/Programmer/exhibit-designer/science-nerd > Moderator: FREENRG-L VORTEX-L TAOSHUM-L WEBHEAD-L > http://www.eskimo.com/~bilb/freenrgl/flist.html > Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com voice:206-781-3320 > > ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science > Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L _____________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Click here for FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 02:10:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA08484; Mon, 15 May 2000 02:09:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 02:09:29 -0700 Message-ID: <391FBEF4.6EE00676@netzero.net> Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 02:10:12 -0700 From: blue_eyes X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com References: <002401bfbe14$51aed960$b4d666ce@default> <391F62ED.8D7F2418@csrlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"F3OUm3.0.P42.9xx7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15113 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: Why The *Fork* Are We Here? Status: O X-Status: Hi folks, Follow Your *OWN* Dreams......... Follow your *OWN* reasons for being *HERE*. I am *here* because I do not conform to the standard ignorance and/or stupidity. I am creative,I have my own brand of stupidity. I do not subscribe to the conventional standards for intellectual incompetance. What *test* would you have me take, and how would you judge the the results? It seems to me that the major reason most of us are here is because we DO NOT subscribe to the conventional ignorance. So, Why compare us to the very same incompetance that causes us to be here? The *DELETE* button is actually more convenient than the *Pill*. Try it. David Mike Johnston wrote: > Smart is ORIGINAL thought. > _____________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Click here for FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 06:42:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA14809; Mon, 15 May 2000 06:41:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 06:41:44 -0700 Message-ID: <000401bfbe73$670599c0$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> From: "Sam Garza" To: References: <20000510075813.58728.qmail@hotmail.com> <001201bfbca9$6046a280$8d1b56c3@avd> Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 09:42:22 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Resent-Message-ID: <"Vd_az1.0.Ad3.Ow_7v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15114 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: Re: Who wants to do help designing/building something? Status: O X-Status: Aris, I agree it we be a marvelous idea. Sam Garza ----- Original Message ----- From: Aris To: Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 9:59 PM Subject: Who wants to do help designing/building something? > Dear friends, > > Last weeks I've been eating a lot of nuts. > > One conclusion I ate, was that designing > a web-cad-cam prodution unit might be a > very good and interesting investment. > > I have a good feeling about this thought! > > > Regards, > Aris. > > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 07:05:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA28676; Mon, 15 May 2000 07:05:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 07:05:34 -0700 Message-ID: <001c01bfbe76$89685e00$07c566c3@unet.com> From: "Julian Campbell" To: Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:04:48 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0019_01BFBE7E.E9E63C40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"8i8Yw3.0.r_6.jG08v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15115 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: REMOVE Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BFBE7E.E9E63C40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BFBE7E.E9E63C40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BFBE7E.E9E63C40-- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 07:17:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA01254; Mon, 15 May 2000 07:16:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 07:16:33 -0700 From: dave.tingley@juno.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 08:15:25 -0400 Message-ID: <20000515.101730.207.0.dave.tingley@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 Resent-Message-ID: <"hDdDP2.0.LJ.1R08v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15116 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: Re: [FNRG]: TEST MESSAGE: subject line prefix Status: O X-Status: yes, I am subscribed to several list and it helps to sort. Dave > Hey, does anyone find the [FNRG]: prefix useful? If so, I can leave > it > there permanently. Or maybe it should say "FNG:" to save > characters. For > those who haven't set up their mailers to auto-sort incoming > messages into > folders, the "FNG:" makes it easy to see which messages come from > this > list. > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 08:35:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA00747; Mon, 15 May 2000 08:34:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 08:34:11 -0700 Message-ID: <006e01bfbe83$1e35d1a0$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> From: "Sam Garza" To: References: <391F22D9.6AE813D2@csrlink.net> Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 11:34:52 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Resent-Message-ID: <"7MMHn3.0.WB.pZ18v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15117 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: Re: "The Rest of the Story" Status: O X-Status: Mike, Right on, I was a Physics major in college and I did very well mostly A's. I was also a Math Major since just being a Physics major was not difficult enough and by the way a B.S. in both majors, which requires an additional 8 credits in the major so I did an extra 16 for the 2 majors. I am so far the only one to have done that from the university in California that I went to. I am not saying this to brag I am saying this because no one on this list can put me down or push me aside as not knowing what I am talking about. But while it took me 17.5 years to get "educated" to the level of an M.S. in electrical engineering computer engineering option. It took me 20 years to get de programmed from my "education." The schools of America train students to be clones of the teachers not INDEPENDENT THINKERS. I was very lucky in having a mom that reminded us kids that an education is only to give you some tools to use. You didn't have to brainstorm farther than anyone else has. I.e. I think it was Edison who said "if I have done anything great it is only because I have stood on the backs of great men who have gone before me." I hope Mike has caused some on this list to think outside the box that your "education" put you in, in other words people will not try to do anything they are told won't work. Tesla's professor said it was impossible to generate electricity with a water wheel as that was perpetual motion this statement worked on every one else the teacher told that to. But not on Tesla. Perpetual motion will never work on this planet neither will true over unity in the true sense. But what inventors now all over the world are working on is not over unity!!! WHAT IS CALLED OVER UNITY SHOULD BE CALLED LEARNING TO HARNESS THE ENERGY FIELD THAT LIKE AN OCEAN IS ALL AROUND US. We don't have to do all the work to have a viable power system God can and will do more than we even know or can even imagine if we will let Him. Such as evaporate and lift water 10,000 feet into the air. He is the one who lifted the water up onto the mountains that we harness coming down. Because we have been doing this for over a hundred years we think nothing of it. But let someone say it a little differently like Mike has here on this list and you can see who is thinking inside the box. We have got to climb out of the rut and think for ourselves. This in the box thinking is why most new discoveries are done by people who are not trained in the area of discovery, because they have not been told it can't be done. My mother used to make us kids mad when she would say "can't never did anything go try it" ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Johnston To: Michael S. Johnston Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2000 6:04 PM Subject: "The Rest of the Story" > Hi All, > Did we have fun? I did. > Very simply, the Water Tower diagram was only half of the idea. I was > playing. > As I said it is simple though and may just put out more energy in > electricity than what we have to put in without violating known > principles of physics. > Everybody knows how much power is required to electrolyze water > right? And everyone knows that when you burn the products of that > reaction together you get superheated steam right? ie: the energy > released is equal to the energy required to cause the separation. > Unfortunately there are losses and we cannot get it all back. Most of > it perhaps (in a good system) but not all of it. > Ok, so electrolyze your water at ground level (or below for that > matter) and instead of burning your H2 right away send it up. Use a pipe > or little balloons or whatever but since it is lighter than air (lighter > than helium too) you can send it up for free. Imagine the Transporter on > Star trek. We disassociate the water at ground level and send it's > molecules up 10,000 feet for FREE. > Once you get it up there you burn it and get superheated steam and > turn your turbine to make electricity just like you would have at ground > level. You recondense the steam (air is cold up there, should help) and > catch it in a holding tank. You have now gotten MOST of the energy back > that you invested. Instead of a tank of water at ground level now, as > you would normally have, you have it 10,000 feet in the air. You got it > there for free. > You have 10,000 feet of DOWN to make more electricity with that > water. Can you go Over Unity through the whole system? Enough so that > you could get the whole world to realize that OU is possible? > Would that realization spark a whole rash of more practical OU > devices simply because people now believe it to be possible and not the > dreams of slightly addled "inventor" wannabees? Maybe. > Oh well, whatever. > Later, > MJ > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 13:37:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA30549; Mon, 15 May 2000 13:35:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 13:35:44 -0700 Message-ID: <001001bfbead$0c5cef20$9cd666ce@default> From: "Chris O'Barr" To: Subject: Re: FNG: Re: "The Rest of the Story" Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 16:35:02 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"zZuDn.0.AT7.V-58v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15119 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Pomposity relates to how you express yourself to others, not how much you know. Both kings and peasants can be pompous. And both kings and peasants can be humble. I'm sorry if I offended you, but I just don't like things to get deeply emotional on this list. ;-) -----Original Message----- From: Mike Johnston To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Sunday, May 14, 2000 10:36 PM Subject: Re: FNG: Re: "The Rest of the Story" >Huh? I am PLAYING. No wittiness there. What exactly does pompous mean to >you? To me it is someone rich, like a king or something lording it over >his people. > Me? I'm a truck driver who barely graduated high school and sucked at >math. Hardly pompous. Pompous is a person sitting somewhere surrounded >by books and pretending that, because they have a head full of facts >they are smart. Smart enough to judge other people's original ideas.But >NO. Those are SOMEONE ELSE'S thoughts. Smart is ORIGINAL thought. > I didn't say anything to anyone until they picked on me first. Now >just because I'm a little better at comebacks than you are you want to >hit me with a POMPOUS line like: > > Don't be so pompous. And don't give me a witty comeback. We all >know >> you're being pompous. > >Like your shit don't stink. >MJ > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 13:44:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA03160; Mon, 15 May 2000 13:43:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 13:43:42 -0700 Message-ID: <003101bfbeae$27e88500$9cd666ce@default> From: "Chris O'Barr" To: Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 16:42:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"DAa7B2.0.Dn.-568v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15120 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: Re: Re: "The Rest of the Story" Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Sam Garza To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Monday, May 15, 2000 11:36 AM Subject: FNG: Re: "The Rest of the Story" >Mike, >Right on, I was a Physics major in college and I did very well mostly A's. I >was also a Math Major since just being a Physics major was not difficult >enough and by the way a B.S. in both majors, which requires an additional 8 >credits in the major so I did an extra 16 for the 2 majors. I am so far the >only one to have done that from the university in California that I went to. >I am not saying this to brag I am saying this because no one on this list >can put me down or push me aside as not knowing what I am talking about. But >while it took me 17.5 years to get "educated" to the level of an M.S. in >electrical engineering computer engineering option. It took me 20 years to >get de programmed from my "education." The schools of America train students >to be clones of the teachers not INDEPENDENT THINKERS. I was very lucky in >having a mom that reminded us kids that an education is only to give you >some tools to use. You didn't have to brainstorm farther than anyone else >has. I.e. I think it was Edison who said "if I have done anything great it >is only because I have stood on the backs of great men who have gone before >me." It was Newton who said somthing about standing on the shoulders of giants, is that what you're referring too. I hope Mike has caused some on this list to think outside the box that >your "education" put you in, in other words people will not try to do >anything they are told won't work. Tesla's professor said it was impossible >to generate electricity with a water wheel as that was perpetual motion this >statement worked on every one else the teacher told that to. But not on >Tesla. Perpetual motion will never work on this planet neither will true >over unity in the true sense. But what inventors now all over the world are >working on is not over unity!!! WHAT IS CALLED OVER UNITY SHOULD BE CALLED >LEARNING TO HARNESS THE ENERGY FIELD THAT LIKE AN OCEAN IS ALL AROUND US. We >don't have to do all the work to have a viable power system God can and will >do more than we even know or can even imagine if we will let Him. Such as >evaporate and lift water 10,000 feet into the air. He is the one who lifted >the water up onto the mountains that we harness coming down. Because we have >been doing this for over a hundred years we think nothing of it. But let >someone say it a little differently like Mike has here on this list and you >can see who is thinking inside the box. We have got to climb out of the rut >and think for ourselves. This in the box thinking is why most new >discoveries are done by people who are not trained in the area of discovery, >because they have not been told it can't be done. My mother used to make us >kids mad when she would say "can't never did anything go try it" >----- Original Message ----- >From: Mike Johnston >To: Michael S. Johnston >Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2000 6:04 PM >Subject: "The Rest of the Story" > > >> Hi All, >> Did we have fun? I did. >> Very simply, the Water Tower diagram was only half of the idea. I was >> playing. >> As I said it is simple though and may just put out more energy in >> electricity than what we have to put in without violating known >> principles of physics. >> Everybody knows how much power is required to electrolyze water >> right? And everyone knows that when you burn the products of that >> reaction together you get superheated steam right? ie: the energy >> released is equal to the energy required to cause the separation. >> Unfortunately there are losses and we cannot get it all back. Most of >> it perhaps (in a good system) but not all of it. >> Ok, so electrolyze your water at ground level (or below for that >> matter) and instead of burning your H2 right away send it up. Use a pipe >> or little balloons or whatever but since it is lighter than air (lighter >> than helium too) you can send it up for free. Imagine the Transporter on >> Star trek. We disassociate the water at ground level and send it's >> molecules up 10,000 feet for FREE. >> Once you get it up there you burn it and get superheated steam and >> turn your turbine to make electricity just like you would have at ground >> level. You recondense the steam (air is cold up there, should help) and >> catch it in a holding tank. You have now gotten MOST of the energy back >> that you invested. Instead of a tank of water at ground level now, as >> you would normally have, you have it 10,000 feet in the air. You got it >> there for free. >> You have 10,000 feet of DOWN to make more electricity with that >> water. Can you go Over Unity through the whole system? Enough so that >> you could get the whole world to realize that OU is possible? >> Would that realization spark a whole rash of more practical OU >> devices simply because people now believe it to be possible and not the >> dreams of slightly addled "inventor" wannabees? Maybe. >> Oh well, whatever. >> Later, >> MJ >> > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 13:51:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA06523; Mon, 15 May 2000 13:49:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 13:49:48 -0700 Message-ID: <004401bfbeaf$06650060$9cd666ce@default> From: "Chris O'Barr" To: Subject: Re: FNG: Re: "The Rest of the Story" Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 16:49:11 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"6qxdY3.0.qb1.iB68v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15121 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Mike Johnston To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Sunday, May 14, 2000 10:36 PM Subject: Re: FNG: Re: "The Rest of the Story" >Huh? I am PLAYING. No wittiness there. What exactly does pompous mean to >you? To me it is someone rich, like a king or something lording it over >his people. > Me? I'm a truck driver who barely graduated high school and sucked at math. Well, I just turned 14, so I have even less credentials. And just to remind all of you, the school system sucks. Grades are only reminders that you did what they told you to, not a measure of intelligence. Hardly pompous. Pompous is a person sitting somewhere surrounded >by books and pretending that, because they have a head full of facts >they are smart. Smart enough to judge other people's original ideas.But >NO. Those are SOMEONE ELSE'S thoughts. Smart is ORIGINAL thought. > I didn't say anything to anyone until they picked on me first. Now >just because I'm a little better at comebacks than you are you want to >hit me with a POMPOUS line like: > > Don't be so pompous. And don't give me a witty comeback. We all >know >> you're being pompous. > >Like your shit don't stink. >MJ > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 13:52:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA08268; Mon, 15 May 2000 13:51:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 13:51:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 13:51:32 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <00c801bfbe8c$754de000$LocalHost@bnickers> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"4WS3e3.0.112.MD68v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15122 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: Did anyone else see this message? (virus problem) Status: O X-Status: Did anyone see the following message go by today? (below) It was 22K in size and had the kak-worm attachment. It was sent to me, but should NOT have gone to the rest of the freenrg list. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From: "Bruce Nickerson" To: Subject: Re: A device for you (ACTIVE X) !!! Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 13:50:51 -0230 Thats a good one, will let you know whenever I get one of mine to work. -----Original Message----- From: Arlo Gingerich To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: May 11, 2000 12:50 AM Subject: Re: A device for you (ACTIVE X) !!! Please refrain from attaching ACTIVE X controls to your posts!! ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Sam Garza=20 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 11:58 AM Subject: Re: A device for you =20 =20 Have you made this quickie perpetual motion device and does it drip = water across? Reason I am asking is that even though the water levels = are not level the oil creates pressure so that the pressure at the = bottom of each vessel should be the same. If that has anything to do = with the water slide. =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mike Johnston=20 To: Michael S. Johnston=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 8:38 AM Subject: A device for you =20 =20 Hi,=20 Here's a quickie perpetual motion device for y'all to debate = on.=20 MJ=20 =20 From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 14:13:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA18898; Mon, 15 May 2000 14:12:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 14:12:38 -0700 Reply-To: "Sparky" From: "Keith Nagel" To: Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 17:11:01 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"QPCgP2.0.4d4.6X68v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15123 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: RE: Did anyone else see this message? (virus problem) Status: O X-Status: Nope. First a virus, now barroom brawling... What has become of FNG? K. -----Original Message----- From: William Beaty [mailto:billb@eskimo.com] Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 4:52 PM To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: Did anyone else see this message? (virus problem) Did anyone see the following message go by today? (below) It was 22K in size and had the kak-worm attachment. It was sent to me, but should NOT have gone to the rest of the freenrg list. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From: "Bruce Nickerson" To: Subject: Re: A device for you (ACTIVE X) !!! Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 13:50:51 -0230 Thats a good one, will let you know whenever I get one of mine to work. -----Original Message----- From: Arlo Gingerich To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: May 11, 2000 12:50 AM Subject: Re: A device for you (ACTIVE X) !!! Please refrain from attaching ACTIVE X controls to your posts!! ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Sam Garza=20 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 11:58 AM Subject: Re: A device for you =20 =20 Have you made this quickie perpetual motion device and does it drip = water across? Reason I am asking is that even though the water levels = are not level the oil creates pressure so that the pressure at the = bottom of each vessel should be the same. If that has anything to do = with the water slide. =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mike Johnston=20 To: Michael S. Johnston=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 8:38 AM Subject: A device for you =20 =20 Hi,=20 Here's a quickie perpetual motion device for y'all to debate = on.=20 MJ=20 =20 From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 14:23:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA23252; Mon, 15 May 2000 14:22:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 14:22:11 -0700 Message-ID: <00ba01bfbeb4$15dda060$37fd6dcb@ihug.co.nz> From: "Stuart Rae" To: References: <391F22D9.6AE813D2@csrlink.net> <006e01bfbe83$1e35d1a0$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 09:24:04 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"3OtPC2.0.0h5.2g68v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15124 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: Re: Re: "The Rest of the Story" Status: O X-Status: Hi, Big snip > > This in the box thinking is why most new > discoveries are done by people who are not trained in > the area of discovery, because they have not been told it > can't be done. > Fair comment Sam. Or, as Barnes Wallis (of bouncing bomb fame) once pointed out: "........And in a way you know, the less you know about the subject the better you are qualified to introduce original ideas........" SR From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 14:43:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA32754; Mon, 15 May 2000 14:42:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 14:42:50 -0700 Message-ID: <000e01bfbeb6$9dcc4b00$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> From: "Sam Garza" To: References: <003101bfbeae$27e88500$9cd666ce@default> Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 17:43:30 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Resent-Message-ID: <"djUAw1.0.c_7.Qz68v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15125 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: Re: Re: Re: "The Rest of the Story" Status: O X-Status: Yes thanks Chris. Sam Garza ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris O'Barr To: Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 4:42 PM Subject: FNG: Re: Re: "The Rest of the Story" > > It was Newton who said somthing about standing on the shoulders of > giants, is that what you're referring too. > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 15:32:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA20702; Mon, 15 May 2000 15:31:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:31:31 -0700 From: tgrimes1@juno.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 18:23:08 -0400 Subject: Re: FNG: Re: "The Rest of the Story" Message-ID: <20000515.182317.-420069.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-3,5,7,9-11,18-22 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 Resent-Message-ID: <"ueMdC1.0.N35.2h78v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15126 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 15 May 2000 11:34:52 -0400 "Sam Garza" writes: > I hope Mike has caused some on this list to think outside the box that > your "education" put you in, in other words people will not try to do > anything they are told won't work. Tesla's professor said it was impossible > to generate electricity with a water wheel as that was perpetual motion this > statement worked on every one else the teacher told that to. But not on > Tesla. I personally have no objection to anyone building a 10,000 ft water tower with an H2/O2 engine at the top. In fact, once it's built I'd like to see it work (or see if it doesn't). Personally, I'm grateful that I have been educated at home for the past six years because it sidesteps this problem in the public/private school system. Thanks a lot, Dewey, for your contribution to the future of America (insert snicker of derision here). -Tom Grimes mailto:tgrimes1@juno.com ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 16:57:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA21623; Mon, 15 May 2000 16:55:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 16:55:59 -0700 Sender: crusoe@eskimo.com Message-ID: <39203C32.2D10CCBA@worldnet.att.net> Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 13:04:34 -0500 From: Daniel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14-15mdk i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: FNG: Re: "The Rest of the Story" References: <391F22D9.6AE813D2@csrlink.net> <391ED649.6BC13AFC@worldnet.att.net> <391F647F.FC7D8D4B@csrlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ASJBS2.0.mH5.Ew88v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15127 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Johnston wrote: > > HI Dan, > You are right! No wonder my car wouldn't start this morning! > MJ > > Huh? I was expecting some sort of logical rebuttal to the points given, not a strawman statement tossed out to divert my attention. Or do you just don't know? Daniel Joyce From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 17:06:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA25939; Mon, 15 May 2000 17:05:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 17:05:41 -0700 Message-ID: <000901bfbeca$64faea20$e4d666ce@default> From: "Chris O'Barr" To: Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 20:05:06 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01BFBEA8.DD4A9920" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"9-np72.0.4L6.L398v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15128 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: arguments Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BFBEA8.DD4A9920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think Mr. Beaty should step in if the argument gets any worse. = Does anyone disagree? ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BFBEA8.DD4A9920 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    I think Mr. Beaty should step in = if the=20 argument gets any worse. Does anyone = disagree?
------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BFBEA8.DD4A9920-- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 17:40:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA10960; Mon, 15 May 2000 17:39:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 17:39:48 -0700 Message-ID: <20000516003916.13066.qmail@web4402.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 17:39:16 -0700 (PDT) From: harvey norris To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"VBc5O2.0.5h2.KZ98v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15129 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: 83 Years Ago Status: O X-Status: Just remember folks, everything said here is a matter of public record. Dateline;May 18,1917 >From minutes of AIEE meeting where after recieving the 7th presentation of the Edison Award, Tesla addressed his congregation with the following comments; "In Colorado I had constructed a transmitter by which I produced effects in some respects at least greater than those of lightning. I do NOT mean in potential. The highest potential I reached was something like 20 million volts, which is insignificant as compared to lightning, but certain effects produced by my apparatus were greater than that of lightning." This is a very bold claim that others have rediculed. What did Tesla actually say about producing effects surpassing lightning? To go there involves hearing a statement from 1905, but that is noted by the records as being published on July 14th which is noted as the most scrutinized remark Tesla made concerning lightning. This is known as the "Reply to Edison" (to be continued near July 14th) HDN Binary Resonant System ===== http://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb124201 ===== Binary Resonant Systemhttp://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb124201 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 17:49:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA14769; Mon, 15 May 2000 17:48:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 17:48:46 -0700 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: FNG: Did anyone else see this message? (virus problem) Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 21:02:18 -0400 Message-ID: <20000516010218062.AAA243@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"-mXuk2.0.dc3.ih98v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15130 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Billb wrote: >Did anyone see the following message go by today? (below) It was 22K in >size and had the kak-worm attachment. It was sent to me, but should NOT >have gone to the rest of the freenrg list. Hi Bill, That message passed through here on or about the 11th of this month. Since you put the size limit on the messages, I haven't seen any virii pass through. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 17:57:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA19136; Mon, 15 May 2000 17:57:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 17:57:04 -0700 Message-ID: <04aa01bfbed0$c191dc20$259780d8@n8o9m1> From: "Bill Wallace`" To: References: <391F22D9.6AE813D2@csrlink.net> <006e01bfbe83$1e35d1a0$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 20:50:36 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"5Jq6g.0.rg4.Wp98v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15131 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: Re: Re: "The Rest of the Story" Status: O X-Status: > get de programmed from my "education." The schools of America train students > to be clones of the teachers not INDEPENDENT THINKERS. I was very lucky in No need to have someone rediscover the wheel - much easier to teach them about it. > having a mom that reminded us kids that an education is only to give you > some tools to use. You didn't have to brainstorm farther than anyone else > has. I.e. I think it was Edison who said "if I have done anything great it > is only because I have stood on the backs of great men who have gone before > me." Edison was a force trying to stop Tesla and AC distribution. Actually as a physics major you should have studied more history - Newton said this - and not in a way to give thanks to those before him so much as to insult the man that had ideas different from his own at the time. Newton was a very arrogant and pompous man. In essence Newton was claiming he was correct becuase he learned from great scientists before him - where the other guy was an ignorant fool who thought he had discovered things on his own. IE thinking outside of the box. I hope Mike has caused some on this list to think outside the box that > your "education" put you in, in other words people will not try to do > anything they are told won't work. You can tell me flight can't work - however through experimentation I can disprove you - this gets into type 1 and type 2 errors - it comes down to - the burden of proof to upset the system lies on your shoulders - not the systems. If you tell me bricks can fly and I drop a brick 1000 times and it does not fly - I lean towards disbelieving you. Tesla's professor said it was impossible > to generate electricity with a water wheel as that was perpetual motion this > statement worked on every one else the teacher told that to. But not on > Tesla. Perpetual motion will never work on this planet neither will true Tesla was a highly educated product of the "system" you seem to be against. > over unity in the true sense. But what inventors now all over the world are > working on is not over unity!!! WHAT IS CALLED OVER UNITY SHOULD BE CALLED > LEARNING TO HARNESS THE ENERGY FIELD THAT LIKE AN OCEAN IS ALL AROUND US. We > don't have to do all the work to have a viable power system God can and will > do more than we even know or can even imagine if we will let Him. Did God let Newton discover gravity? Or let Tesla discover his technologies? Such as > evaporate and lift water 10,000 feet into the air. He is the one who lifted > the water up onto the mountains that we harness coming down. Really? With his almighty hand? Funny me - I always thought it was the hydrological cycle ultimately being powered by the sun - so the hand of god is the sun? Because we have > been doing this for over a hundred years we think nothing of it. But let > someone say it a little differently like Mike has here on this list and you > can see who is thinking inside the box. We have got to climb out of the rut Something I learned very early on is how susceptible people are to hope and hoax when dealing with energies or technologies that are not necessarily intuitive to the average person. You should read a book called flatland - it gives the perspective of a 2 dimensional being living in three dimensional space - fascinating stuff. > and think for ourselves. This in the box thinking is why most new > discoveries are done by people who are not trained in the area of discovery, > because they have not been told it can't be done. My mother used to make us Funny - Newton was very well trained and made reference to that fact in his quote - and tesla was very well trained - and the wright brothers were very well trained engineers - but tell you what - all that training makes you stupid - so lets not worry about those folks that think in the box of all that training - you go build your 10,000 ft tower and prove us all wrong :-) From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 18:13:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA26484; Mon, 15 May 2000 18:13:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 18:13:21 -0700 Message-ID: <0b4501bfbed3$062f4000$259780d8@n8o9m1> From: "Bill Wallace`" To: References: <20000516003916.13066.qmail@web4402.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 21:06:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"ewHOm1.0.bT6.n2A8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15132 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: Re: 83 Years Ago Status: O X-Status: I recall reading on a wireless networking site about a microwave transmitter and receiver system that was used at a campus in australia. One night a massive lightning bolt struck the transmitter - the energy was transmitted to the receiver - which in turn melted. How could such energy be harnessed by the transmitter and sent in microwave frequencies - without damaging the transmitter before it sent the beam of energy that melted the receiver? ----- Original Message ----- From: "harvey norris" To: Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 8:39 PM Subject: FNG: 83 Years Ago > Just remember folks, everything said here is a matter > of public record. > > Dateline;May 18,1917 > From minutes of AIEE meeting where after recieving the > 7th > presentation of the Edison Award, Tesla addressed his > congregation with the following comments; > > "In Colorado I had constructed a transmitter by which > I produced effects in some respects at least greater > than those of lightning. I do NOT mean in potential. > The highest potential I reached was something like 20 > million volts, which is insignificant as compared to > lightning, but certain effects produced by my > apparatus were greater than that of lightning." > > This is a very bold claim that others have rediculed. > What did Tesla actually say about producing effects > surpassing lightning? To go there involves hearing a > statement from 1905, but that is noted by the records > as being published on July 14th which is noted as the > most scrutinized remark Tesla made concerning > lightning. This is known as the "Reply to Edison" > (to be continued near July 14th) HDN > > Binary Resonant System > ===== > http://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb124201 > > > > ===== > Binary Resonant Systemhttp://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb124201 > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com/ > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 18:40:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA04278; Mon, 15 May 2000 18:39:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 18:39:35 -0700 Message-ID: <001001bfbed7$817d93c0$e4d666ce@default> From: "Chris O'Barr" To: Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 21:38:57 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"T8FQO.0.-11.MRA8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15133 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: Re: Re: Re: "The Rest of the Story" Status: O X-Status: Damn it, don't continue the argument, just end it. -----Original Message----- From: Bill Wallace` To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Monday, May 15, 2000 8:58 PM Subject: FNG: Re: Re: "The Rest of the Story" >> get de programmed from my "education." The schools of America train >students >> to be clones of the teachers not INDEPENDENT THINKERS. I was very lucky in > >No need to have someone rediscover the wheel - much easier to teach them >about it. > >> having a mom that reminded us kids that an education is only to give you >> some tools to use. You didn't have to brainstorm farther than anyone else >> has. I.e. I think it was Edison who said "if I have done anything great it >> is only because I have stood on the backs of great men who have gone >before >> me." > >Edison was a force trying to stop Tesla and AC distribution. Actually as a >physics major you should have studied more history - Newton said this - and >not in a way to give thanks to those before him so much as to insult the man >that had ideas different from his own at the time. Newton was a very >arrogant and pompous man. In essence Newton was claiming he was correct >becuase he learned from great scientists before him - where the other guy >was an ignorant fool who thought he had discovered things on his own. IE >thinking outside of the box. > > I hope Mike has caused some on this list to think outside the box that >> your "education" put you in, in other words people will not try to do >> anything they are told won't work. > >You can tell me flight can't work - however through experimentation I can >disprove you - this gets into type 1 and type 2 errors - it comes down to - >the burden of proof to upset the system lies on your shoulders - not the >systems. If you tell me bricks can fly and I drop a brick 1000 times and it >does not fly - I lean towards disbelieving you. > >Tesla's professor said it was impossible >> to generate electricity with a water wheel as that was perpetual motion >this >> statement worked on every one else the teacher told that to. But not on >> Tesla. Perpetual motion will never work on this planet neither will true > >Tesla was a highly educated product of the "system" you seem to be against. > >> over unity in the true sense. But what inventors now all over the world >are >> working on is not over unity!!! WHAT IS CALLED OVER UNITY SHOULD BE CALLED >> LEARNING TO HARNESS THE ENERGY FIELD THAT LIKE AN OCEAN IS ALL AROUND US. >We >> don't have to do all the work to have a viable power system God can and >will >> do more than we even know or can even imagine if we will let Him. > >Did God let Newton discover gravity? Or let Tesla discover his >technologies? > > Such as >> evaporate and lift water 10,000 feet into the air. He is the one who >lifted >> the water up onto the mountains that we harness coming down. > >Really? With his almighty hand? Funny me - I always thought it was the >hydrological cycle ultimately being powered by the sun - so the hand of god >is the sun? > > Because we have >> been doing this for over a hundred years we think nothing of it. But let >> someone say it a little differently like Mike has here on this list and >you >> can see who is thinking inside the box. We have got to climb out of the >rut > >Something I learned very early on is how susceptible people are to hope and >hoax when dealing with energies or technologies that are not necessarily >intuitive to the average person. You should read a book called flatland - >it gives the perspective of a 2 dimensional being living in three >dimensional space - fascinating stuff. > >> and think for ourselves. This in the box thinking is why most new >> discoveries are done by people who are not trained in the area of >discovery, >> because they have not been told it can't be done. My mother used to make >us > >Funny - Newton was very well trained and made reference to that fact in his >quote - and tesla was very well trained - and the wright brothers were very >well trained engineers - but tell you what - all that training makes you >stupid - so lets not worry about those folks that think in the box of all >that training - you go build your 10,000 ft tower and prove us all wrong :-) > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 19:35:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA25317; Mon, 15 May 2000 19:34:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 19:34:33 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: FNG: Re: 83 Years Ago Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 12:33:39 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20000516003916.13066.qmail@web4402.mail.yahoo.com> <0b4501bfbed3$062f4000$259780d8@n8o9m1> In-Reply-To: <0b4501bfbed3$062f4000$259780d8@n8o9m1> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA25281 Resent-Message-ID: <"1vl5D2.0.QB6.vEB8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15134 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 15 May 2000 21:06:50 -0400, Bill Wallace` wrote: >I recall reading on a wireless networking site about a microwave transmitter >and receiver system that was used at a campus in australia. One night a >massive lightning bolt struck the transmitter - the energy was transmitted >to the receiver - which in turn melted. How could such energy be harnessed >by the transmitter and sent in microwave frequencies - without damaging the >transmitter before it sent the beam of energy that melted the receiver? [snip] Perhaps it wasn't transmitted by the active components of the transmitter, but only by the passive frequency selective components connected directly to the dish antenna. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 21:05:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA24456; Mon, 15 May 2000 21:05:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 21:05:06 -0700 Message-ID: <001a01bfbea9$ed79dbc0$dea134d1@a9o0z0> From: "Alik S" To: Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 20:12:40 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"A3rPe3.0.Az5.nZC8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15135 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: cheapdataaq Status: O X-Status: Unless I read something wrong, Dataq instruments seems to be offering a freebie 4 ch data acquisition thingy. http://www.dataq.com/115.htm Alik S. -----Original Message----- From: Mike Johnston To: Michael S. Johnston Date: Sunday, May 14, 2000 10:05 PM Subject: "The Rest of the Story" >Hi All, > Did we have fun? I did. > Very simply, the Water Tower diagram was only half of the idea. I was >playing. > As I said it is simple though and may just put out more energy in >electricity than what we have to put in without violating known >principles of physics. > Everybody knows how much power is required to electrolyze water >right? And everyone knows that when you burn the products of that >reaction together you get superheated steam right? ie: the energy >released is equal to the energy required to cause the separation. > Unfortunately there are losses and we cannot get it all back. Most of >it perhaps (in a good system) but not all of it. > Ok, so electrolyze your water at ground level (or below for that >matter) and instead of burning your H2 right away send it up. Use a pipe >or little balloons or whatever but since it is lighter than air (lighter >than helium too) you can send it up for free. Imagine the Transporter on >Star trek. We disassociate the water at ground level and send it's >molecules up 10,000 feet for FREE. > Once you get it up there you burn it and get superheated steam and >turn your turbine to make electricity just like you would have at ground >level. You recondense the steam (air is cold up there, should help) and >catch it in a holding tank. You have now gotten MOST of the energy back >that you invested. Instead of a tank of water at ground level now, as >you would normally have, you have it 10,000 feet in the air. You got it >there for free. > You have 10,000 feet of DOWN to make more electricity with that >water. Can you go Over Unity through the whole system? Enough so that >you could get the whole world to realize that OU is possible? > Would that realization spark a whole rash of more practical OU >devices simply because people now believe it to be possible and not the >dreams of slightly addled "inventor" wannabees? Maybe. > Oh well, whatever. > Later, > MJ > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 21:37:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA03397; Mon, 15 May 2000 21:37:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 21:37:15 -0700 From: RBCorn2@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 00:36:35 EDT To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 104 Resent-Message-ID: <"-2rDq.0.vq.x1D8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15136 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: Dataq Status: O X-Status: The Dataq data aquisition board is too slow for audio. It is only 2 channels free (pay for the other 2, access) Still, for up & learning it is a great tool... << http://www.dataq.com/115.htm >> From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 22:40:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA22979; Mon, 15 May 2000 22:31:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 22:31:43 -0700 Message-ID: <042901bfbef4$b9c42380$1c5dadd1@default> From: "Jim Shaffer, Jr." To: References: <20000516003916.13066.qmail@web4402.mail.yahoo.com> <0b4501bfbed3$062f4000$259780d8@n8o9m1> Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 01:08:00 -0400 Organization: Unconventional Conventionalists MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"VutiD.0.rc5.-qD8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15137 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: Re: Re: 83 Years Ago Status: O X-Status: > I recall reading on a wireless networking site about a microwave transmitter > and receiver system that was used at a campus in australia. One night a > massive lightning bolt struck the transmitter - the energy was transmitted > to the receiver - which in turn melted. How could such energy be harnessed > by the transmitter and sent in microwave frequencies - without damaging the > transmitter before it sent the beam of energy that melted the receiver? There is a recent patent on using a maser to embed a data signal in the magnetic field surrounding a power line, such that the signal flows entirely outside the wire. Perhaps this was something similar? -- "Alan Turing predicted that the idea of machines thinking would be routine by the end of the century. The very second that time ran out for his prediction was the second that computers were set to demonstrate their complete stupidity because they couldn't add up dates." --Stephen Grand From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 22:46:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA28766; Mon, 15 May 2000 22:45:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 22:45:29 -0700 From: dtmiller@midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: FNG: Re: Re: 83 Years Ago Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 05:45:23 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Reply-To: dtmiller@midiowa.net Message-ID: <3920e013.124918262@mail.midiowa.net> References: <20000516003916.13066.qmail@web4402.mail.yahoo.com> <0b4501bfbed3$062f4000$259780d8@n8o9m1> <042901bfbef4$b9c42380$1c5dadd1@default> In-Reply-To: <042901bfbef4$b9c42380$1c5dadd1@default> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id WAA28701 Resent-Message-ID: <"5PP1f.0.J17.u1E8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15138 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jim, On Tue, 16 May 2000 01:08:00 -0400, "Jim Shaffer, Jr." wrote: >> I recall reading on a wireless networking site about a microwave transmitter >> and receiver system that was used at a campus in australia. One night a >> massive lightning bolt struck the transmitter - the energy was transmitted >> to the receiver - which in turn melted. How could such energy be harnessed >> by the transmitter and sent in microwave frequencies - without damaging the >> transmitter before it sent the beam of energy that melted the receiver? > >There is a recent patent on using a maser to embed a data signal in the magnetic >field surrounding a power line, such that the signal flows entirely outside the >wire. Perhaps this was something similar? Any RF signal (a few 10's of KHz) will flow on the outside of a power line. The higher the frequency, the more to the outside. RF signals along power lines have been used for a long time. -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moines (CDP, KB0ZDF) From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 23:31:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA13332; Mon, 15 May 2000 23:30:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 23:30:55 -0700 From: DEADWATE@aol.com Message-ID: <37.53a43c2.265244db@aol.com> Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 02:29:47 EDT To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 101 Resent-Message-ID: <"UgZbJ2.0.9G3.ViE8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15139 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: Some help please? Status: O X-Status: A while back, posted to this group, there was a reference to some new sort of light that uses sulphur to get amazingly bright white light. Can anyone direct me to this page? From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 23:44:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA17924; Mon, 15 May 2000 23:44:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 23:44:16 -0700 Message-ID: <01BFBEC7.82A194A0@istf-1-5.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 23:44:24 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BFBEC7.82A194A0" Resent-Message-ID: <"f7fzQ1.0.uN4.0vE8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15140 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: RE: Some help please? Status: O X-Status: ------ =_NextPart_000_01BFBEC7.82A194A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DEADWATE@aol.com wrote: > A while back, posted to this group, there was a reference to some new sort >of light that uses sulphur to get amazingly bright white light. Can anyone >direct me to this page? try http://www.sulfurlamp.com/index.htm (original message copied below) Dan Quickert -----Original Message----- From: Michael T Huffman Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 1999 7:37 PM To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: sulfur lamps >Does anyone know anything about perpetual lamps? Have they foudn anything >on how it burns for so long? What the fuel is? I found the url: http://www.sulfurlamp.com/index.htm Another interesting thing about the lamp is the broad spectrum of light it gives off. It's quite a breakthrough, actually. Check it out. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive Lady Lake, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm ------ =_NextPart_000_01BFBEC7.82A194A0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IhwGAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAsAEAAAEAAAARAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAARwAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAGZyZWVucmctbEBlc2tp bW8uY29tAFNNVFAAZnJlZW5yZy1sQGVza2ltby5jb20AAB4AAjABAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAD MAEAAAAVAAAAZnJlZW5yZy1sQGVza2ltby5jb20AAAAAAwAVDAEAAAADAP4PBgAAAB4AATABAAAA FwAAACdmcmVlbnJnLWxAZXNraW1vLmNvbScAAAIBCzABAAAAGgAAAFNNVFA6RlJFRU5SRy1MQEVT S0lNTy5DT00AAAADAAA5AAAAAAsAQDoBAAAAAwBxOgAAAAAeAPZfAQAAABUAAABmcmVlbnJnLWxA ZXNraW1vLmNvbQAAAAACAfdfAQAAAEcAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDdAQ9UAgAAAABmcmVlbnJn LWxAZXNraW1vLmNvbQBTTVRQAGZyZWVucmctbEBlc2tpbW8uY29tAAADAP1fAQAAAAMA/18AAAAA AgH2DwEAAAAEAAAAAAAAAqhYAQSAAQAWAAAAUkU6IFNvbWUgaGVscCBwbGVhc2U/ACcHAQWAAwAO AAAA0AcFAA8AFwAsABgAAQBHAQEggAMADgAAANAHBQAPABcAJwAtAAEAVwEBCYABACEAAAA0MTE3 REZENEQ4MkFENDExOUExQkQwRDYwNzAwMDAwMAD6BgEDkAYA2AYAACIAAAALAAIAAQAAAAsAIwAA AAAAAwAmAAAAAAALACkAAAAAAAMALgAAAAAAAwA2AAAAAABAADkAQIl4LAK/vwEeAHAAAQAAABYA AABSRTogU29tZSBoZWxwIHBsZWFzZT8AAAACAXEAAQAAABYAAAABv78CLHXU3xdEKtgR1Job0NYH AAAAAAAeAB4MAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AHwwBAAAAFwAAAGRlcXVpY2tlcnRAdWNkYXZpcy5l ZHUAAAMABhDiec9MAwAHEOYCAAAeAAgQAQAAAGUAAABERUFEV0FURUBBT0xDT01XUk9URTpBV0hJ TEVCQUNLLFBPU1RFRFRPVEhJU0dST1VQLFRIRVJFV0FTQVJFRkVSRU5DRVRPU09NRU5FV1NPUlRP RkxJR0hUVEhBVFVTRVNTVUxQAAAAAAIBCRABAAAApQMAAKEDAABvBQAATFpGdUbG24J3AAoBAwH3 IAKkA+MCAHBIcnEyAgBjaArAc7BldDAgBxMCgH0KgRx1YwBQCwMLYG5nMQgwMzMLpiBERUGARFdB VEVAYQbwIi4FoG0gdwNgdGW2OgqiCoA+CqAT0mMFQIsQUBOwaAMQZSBiANBAaywgcG9zE/Bk+CB0 bxZwFWAEIAnACGCecBXwFrAEkBWQd2EEIJRhIAlwZheRbmMVkO0WgXMDcBWQbgfRGQAAIB8K4wqC FLQQQBSIb2YgsGxpZ2gFQBawYQVABnUQEAQgc3VscGi7CHAWcmcQIBgAAMB6C4D4Z2x5FaAFEBvS FVET8LUbpC4VEEMDkQBweQIg5xWQGe8Ul2RpCXAU8Rkh9xaGCrAdYD8K4SDFIEYkFj0WYXIeIAxg AyAb4HRwUDovL3cmAC4csWbTCHALYG1wE3IvC4ABALR4LhvgbSVRI+UoBbC/G8ALgAdAIkEEECMR IAWgJnAIkBZgYmUJAHcpxSP6RAORUXVpFdAEkK50IEwgTRQkLS4CTyiGHk0pFC4DJFkCAGktMXw0 NAFAG7AwkwzQMJNiXCBGA2EUEAySYhBATQcrcA/gKgAgVCBIdX8BIAODIFQxwAZgAjAyJ1dDCYAZ UHNkYXkV8E1xNaAgMTkV8DYgNnAggDc6MzcgUE0z1xxUbzInA1AJ4XJnLdRsQAeQawdwbxNyM9j4 dWJqFOEyJyZEG6AmsWcPQC+5FDREbweRH9Vrfm4qIB/CFrERwBgABuB1zQVAcASQPxB0dSjRO6Pz I0AzQGF2GLEXgB4gAhD+dTVQPhcUJQIgJYA98R7Q/xWgCHAGMQIQBcAZABugAiD6Z0ABVxwiF3E4 UApQAyDtBAA/I/4KgElAwidAREO9JoE6JU8mXyduFCRBPeD/F3JCgAIwF5EWMD5yPlpEUk9IkkTR REMeQG9hFmBz8z8QFPBydROgG4ce0BQkLyigQFAEIBuAZh9hSXR6JwQgcStgHuEYEB5AZfxhaxaw FxEb0BXwANA/Yr8eEB9iF4AV0EKCPtEuRR+wCktudSuQU68KMrevH2AzVRQkM1ZUBZBoPeB9CQBn HiAIUEiwH9EUJDH4MTIxEqAcYEuhEqAFEPtAUBQkTE3gHiBbICuQFfBKRgkBaTWQIDNZ0DWCOSgF MzUyKTJcgHEwgDI3NhQkPdBU4UCATENJQS5DTzcWEUdcYWEuGVB0L35fXjNJHzwoLFoQ0QBj4AAA AAMAEBAAAAAAAwAREAAAAAAeAEIQAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAAwCAEP////9AAAcwcCNahgG/vwFAAAgw cCNahgG/vwELAACACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAADhQAAAAAAAAMAAYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAA AABGAAAAABCFAAAAAAAAAwACgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAUoUAAPMVAAAeAAOACCAGAAAA AADAAAAAAAAARgAAAABUhQAAAQAAAAUAAAA4LjA0AAAAAAMABIAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAA AAGFAAAAAAAACwAFgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAADoUAAAAAAAADAAaACCAGAAAAAADAAAAA AAAARgAAAAARhQAAAAAAAAMAB4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAABiFAAAAAAAAHgAIgAggBgAA AAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAANoUAAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4ACYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADeF AAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAAqACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAA4hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgA9 AAEAAAAFAAAAUkU6IAAAAAADAA00/TcAANKN ------ =_NextPart_000_01BFBEC7.82A194A0-- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 16 00:22:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA29971; Tue, 16 May 2000 00:21:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 00:21:48 -0700 Message-ID: <20000516065436.18265.qmail@web4401.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 23:54:36 -0700 (PDT) From: harvey norris To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"zEhh_2.0.6K7.CSF8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15141 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: Reply to Edison Status: O X-Status: REPLY TO EDISON Tuesday, 16-May-2000 00:33:03 199.174.177.188 writes: Dateline; July 14,1905 --publication in English Mechanic and World of Science, pg 515; This problem, {artificial simulation of lightning strikes} was rendered extremely difficult owing to the ... enormous MOVEMENT OF ELECTRICITY or RATE at which electrical energy had to be delivered in order to approximate, even in a remote degree, MOVEMENTS or RATES which are manifestly obtained in the displays of electrical forces in nature, and which seemed at first unrealizable by human agencies; but by gradual and continuous improvements of a generator of electrical oscillations, which I have described in my Patents 645,576 and 649,621 ,I finally succeded in reaching ELECTRICAL MOVEMENTS or RATES of delivery of electrical energy not only approximately, but as shown in comparative tests and measurements,ACTUALLY SURPASSING THOSE OF LIGHTNING DISCHARGES and by means of his apparatus I have found it possible to reproduce, whenever desired, phenomenon in the earth the same as or similar to those due to such discharges. (Nikola Tesla) ===== Binary Resonant Systemhttp://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb124201 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 16 00:54:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA07283; Tue, 16 May 2000 00:54:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 00:54:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 00:54:21 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: FNG: arguments In-Reply-To: <000901bfbeca$64faea20$e4d666ce@default> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Rl0Y21.0.dn1.lwF8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15142 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 15 May 2000, Chris O'Barr wrote: > I think Mr. Beaty should step in if the argument gets any worse. The number one rule here is pretty clear: 1. NO FLAMEWARS: use private email for impolite messages. If your message is the least bit angry, hostile, or apt to be insulting, do not send it to freenrg-L. Instead, use private email to send it directly to your target. VIOLATORS RISK IMMEDIATE UNSUBSCRIPTION. If someone insults you, contact the moderator. See "Flamewars" below for details. It's hard to keep from responding to insults. The solution is VERY simple: send responses privately to the opponent. A bit from the "Flamewars" section: When a flamewar breaks out, participants usually blame a particular person for causing it, and feel justified in retaliating. However, flamewars are caused by participants, and in order to halt the endless cycle of hostile counterattacks, I must prohibit angry RESPONSES as well as initial insults. If you catch yourself thinking "well, he/she started it, I was just defending myself," since you easily find justification to violate rule #1 of this forum, perhaps you should not be here. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 16 00:57:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA09097; Tue, 16 May 2000 00:57:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 00:57:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 00:56:51 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: FNG: Did anyone else see this message? (virus problem) In-Reply-To: <20000516010218062.AAA243@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ynjGY3.0.2E2.GzF8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15143 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 15 May 2000, Michael T Huffman wrote: > That message passed through here on or about the 11th of this month. Since > you put the size limit on the messages, I haven't seen any virii pass through. Looks like the ActiveX suppressor is working. I've set the size limit back to the default 40K. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 16 01:02:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA10182; Tue, 16 May 2000 01:02:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 01:02:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 01:02:07 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: FNG: Re: 83 Years Ago In-Reply-To: <0b4501bfbed3$062f4000$259780d8@n8o9m1> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"GhJmd2.0.pU2.42G8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15144 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 15 May 2000, Bill Wallace` wrote: > I recall reading on a wireless networking site about a microwave transmitter > and receiver system that was used at a campus in australia. One night a > massive lightning bolt struck the transmitter - the energy was transmitted > to the receiver - which in turn melted. How could such energy be harnessed > by the transmitter and sent in microwave frequencies - without damaging the > transmitter before it sent the beam of energy that melted the receiver? Could be an urban legend. Or, if the transmitter used a magnetron, it might have worked like this one, where a Marx generator drives a microwave tube: http://www.eskimo.com/~bilb/freenrg/empweap.html ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 16 01:05:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA11174; Tue, 16 May 2000 01:04:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 01:04:29 -0700 Message-Id: <200005160804.BAA11116@mx1.eskimo.com> Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 4:4:2 -0500 From: Ray Hough Reply-To: hrayhough@netzero.net To: "freenrg-l@eskimo.com" X-mailer: FoxMail 2.1 [en] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"osEsn.0.Ik2.B4G8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15145 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: Re: Re: FNG: Re: Re: 83 Years Ago Status: O X-Status: At 05/16/2000 5:45:00 AM, you wrote: >Hi Jim, > >On Tue, 16 May 2000 01:08:00 -0400, "Jim Shaffer, Jr." > wrote: > >>> I recall reading on a wireless networking site about a microwave transmitter >>> and receiver system that was used at a campus in australia. One night a >>> massive lightning bolt struck the transmitter - the energy was transmitted >>> to the receiver - which in turn melted. How could such energy be harnessed >>> by the transmitter and sent in microwave frequencies - without damaging the >>> transmitter before it sent the beam of energy that melted the receiver? >> >>There is a recent patent on using a maser to embed a data signal in the magnetic >>field surrounding a power line, such that the signal flows entirely outside the >>wire. Perhaps this was something similar? > >Any RF signal (a few 10's of KHz) will flow on the outside of a power >line. The higher the frequency, the more to the outside. RF signals >along power lines have been used for a long time. > >-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moines (CDP, KB0ZDF) > > >. > This is the basic technology that is used for some very high speed internet connections which are scheduled to be available in the fall of 2000, at least in the states. I believe some are already in use in Europe. Ray. _____________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Click here for FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 16 01:07:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA12606; Tue, 16 May 2000 01:07:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 01:07:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 01:07:06 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: FNG: Some help please? In-Reply-To: <37.53a43c2.265244db@aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"5CLiH3.0.t43.j6G8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15146 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 16 May 2000 DEADWATE@aol.com wrote: > A while back, posted to this group, there was a reference to some new sort > of light that uses sulphur to get amazingly bright white light. Can anyone > direct me to this page? > Search altavista for keywords +"sulphur lamp" +microwave Here's one http://www.mmm.com/intl/NL/english/market/lighting/tech2.html ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 16 01:55:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA28298; Tue, 16 May 2000 01:55:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 01:55:15 -0700 From: Alan Schneider To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: FNG: cheapdataaq Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 16:53:58 +1000 Message-ID: References: <001a01bfbea9$ed79dbc0$dea134d1@a9o0z0> In-Reply-To: <001a01bfbea9$ed79dbc0$dea134d1@a9o0z0> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id BAA28267 Resent-Message-ID: <"TegV2.0.3w6.opG8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15147 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 15 May 2000 20:12:40 -0000, "Alik S" wrote: >Unless I read something wrong, Dataq instruments seems to be offering a >freebie 4 ch data acquisition thingy. >http://www.dataq.com/115.htm >Alik S. Sounds too good to be true. heh heh heh... it IS too good to be true. Read the fine print Yes, you get the free hardware which can potentially acquire 4 channels but the software which comes with it is crippled to allow the saving to disk of only one of the channels. A software upgrade costs $49.45 and additional 4-channel acquisition units cost $99.95 Other limitations are ... only one kit per respondent, limited to shipping destinations within US and Canada, and they reserve the right to decline any request for the free starter kit for any reason. I'm ineligible anyway, living in the Land of Aus. If it weren't for that I'd go for a unit anyway - ya can always analyse the comms protocol and write your own data capture proggy. Cheers Alan Schneider From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 16 06:35:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA13013; Tue, 16 May 2000 06:35:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 06:35:00 -0700 Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 08:34:56 -0500 (CDT) From: Zack Widup X-Sender: w9sz@bluestem To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: FNG: Re: 83 Years Ago In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"k5jj21.0.8B3.4wK8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15148 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 16 May 2000, William Beaty wrote: > On Mon, 15 May 2000, Bill Wallace` wrote: > > > I recall reading on a wireless networking site about a microwave transmitter > > and receiver system that was used at a campus in australia. One night a > > massive lightning bolt struck the transmitter - the energy was transmitted > > to the receiver - which in turn melted. How could such energy be harnessed > > by the transmitter and sent in microwave frequencies - without damaging the > > transmitter before it sent the beam of energy that melted the receiver? > > Could be an urban legend. Or, if the transmitter used a magnetron, it > might have worked like this one, where a Marx generator drives a microwave > tube: > http://www.eskimo.com/~bilb/freenrg/empweap.html > There is missing data here. Has this come down second-hand, third-hand, fourth-hand? Has something been altered in the telling? Are we assuming that the "receiver" mentioned isn't directly wired to the "transmitter" mentioned? (In which case both probably got obliterated by the charge.) Exactly what kind of transmitter was it? What kind of antennas were being used? What kind of receiver was it? How far apart WERE they? When exactly did the transmitter get hit hit by lightning and when exactly did the receiver melt? A minute later? A day later? A week? Lots of unknowns here. Don't assume anything. Zack From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 16 06:37:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA14574; Tue, 16 May 2000 06:36:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 06:36:50 -0700 Message-ID: <39214E20.D26B3E40@harti.com> Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 15:33:20 +0200 From: Stefan Hartmann Organization: Hartmann Multimedia Service X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [de]C-CCK-MCD QXW03200 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Konzen , "jlnlabs@egroups.com" , Free Energy References: <000301bfbde6$fb746420$b2f2103f@old-konzen> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"C6afr1.0.YZ3.oxK8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15149 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: Re: Konzen motor for Avr. Plug charging ! Status: O X-Status: Hi Doug, try to see, if you can charge up a big capacitor via an Avramenko Plug ( 2 diodes and one cap) from one side of your pickup coils (via just one wire). Put the other side of the pickup coils to a big metallic ground plate for free electron pumping (e.g. the grounding of your house or the water pipe from your house, then you will have a good DC voltage on the charged capacitor). Be cautious, it could charge up to the peek voltage, so if you put all pickup coils in series and thus you will get 400 to 500 Volts you will have such a high DC voltage at the cap. When the cap it charged (maybe 10 uF or more) it CAN KILL YOU ! I already was blown out of a chair, when touching a 10 uF 620 Volts DC cap ! Not a nice experience.. It seems, charged capacitors do really like me, so they wanna touch me ! :) Regards, Stefan. Doug Konzen schrieb: > > Hi Stefan > > I am reading about your tube-driver experiments - this is interesting - my > dumb idea is that you should tyr a spark-gap in series with the flourescent > tube also in future experiments - inside, outside and very close to the > water-bath.....The spark gap might do something who knows I know that I can > light flouresecnts AND run the spark-gap into a battery at the same time > with my pulse motor pickup/vector coils output...and the flourescents are > thesame brightness so maybe this will do something in your experiments... > try different sizes of gaps they are very touchy - I have a picture here of > an adjustable one I built: > > http://homepages.go.com/~enzok/steelarc.jpg > > - simple thing or use a regular sparkplug for a small engine or two steel > washres bolted together with a nylon bolt and some sort of plastic > washer/shim in between.......................... > > website: > http://homepages.go.com/homepages/e/n/z/enzok/ > > Ciao > Kone -- Best regards, Stefan Hartmann. -- Hartmann Multimedia Service, Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498 email: harti@harti.com info@ccard.net http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB ! From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 16 13:53:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA09953; Tue, 16 May 2000 13:51:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 13:50:59 -0700 Message-ID: <004401bfbf76$0b548d80$ded666ce@default> From: "Chris O'Barr" To: Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 16:33:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0041_01BFBF54.830D2CA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"eJFAs1.0.6R2.pIR8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15150 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: lightning reciever Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01BFBF54.830D2CA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm not very electronically inclined, so don't be surprised if I ask = a stupid question. Can a small receiver be made to withstand a lightning = strike (if the circuit is complete), or is a special, heavy duty = receiver needed? Will lightning burn something if the electricity passes = right through it? And, what is the average voltage and endurance time = for a lightning bolt, does anyone know?=20 -Sean, My name is Sean, the email says Chris, but I'm Sean. ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01BFBF54.830D2CA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    I'm not very electronically = inclined, so=20 don't be surprised if I ask a stupid question. Can a small receiver be = made to=20 withstand a lightning strike (if the circuit is complete), or is a = special,=20 heavy duty receiver needed? Will lightning burn something if the = electricity=20 passes right through it? And, what is the average voltage and endurance = time for=20 a lightning bolt, does anyone know?
 
      -Sean, My name = is Sean,=20 the email says Chris, but I'm Sean.
------=_NextPart_000_0041_01BFBF54.830D2CA0-- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 16 15:09:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA18678; Tue, 16 May 2000 15:08:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 15:08:39 -0700 Message-ID: <000c01bfbf82$ffd58420$0200a8c6@stealth> From: "R.U. Sirius" To: Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 18:06:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"TspF03.0.dY4.cRS8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15151 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: Re: Re: 83 Years Ago Status: O X-Status: A lot of our (I work at a television station) microwaves leave the transmitter on waveguides. In case your not familier, waveguides are basically RF Plumbing. Very similar to coax, except there is no "center conductor" it is basically a piece of pipe made out of solid copper that is hollow. The inside is usually filled with nitrogen or some other inert gas to keep it dry. The are round, eliptical, rectangular, etc.. waveguides, but the idea is the enegy is transmitted through the "hollow" center of the guide. Aside from having VERY LITTLE loss, they also can handle massive amounts of power. It's not inconceivable that a surge of lightning could travel down one of these guides. As far as how it made it out of the dish, I'm not sure, but it's certainly possible. -----Original Message----- From: Bill Wallace` To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Monday, May 15, 2000 9:15 PM Subject: FNG: Re: 83 Years Ago >I recall reading on a wireless networking site about a microwave transmitter >and receiver system that was used at a campus in australia. One night a >massive lightning bolt struck the transmitter - the energy was transmitted >to the receiver - which in turn melted. How could such energy be harnessed >by the transmitter and sent in microwave frequencies - without damaging the >transmitter before it sent the beam of energy that melted the receiver? > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "harvey norris" >To: >Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 8:39 PM >Subject: FNG: 83 Years Ago > > >> Just remember folks, everything said here is a matter >> of public record. >> >> Dateline;May 18,1917 >> From minutes of AIEE meeting where after recieving the >> 7th >> presentation of the Edison Award, Tesla addressed his >> congregation with the following comments; >> >> "In Colorado I had constructed a transmitter by which >> I produced effects in some respects at least greater >> than those of lightning. I do NOT mean in potential. >> The highest potential I reached was something like 20 >> million volts, which is insignificant as compared to >> lightning, but certain effects produced by my >> apparatus were greater than that of lightning." >> >> This is a very bold claim that others have rediculed. >> What did Tesla actually say about producing effects >> surpassing lightning? To go there involves hearing a >> statement from 1905, but that is noted by the records >> as being published on July 14th which is noted as the >> most scrutinized remark Tesla made concerning >> lightning. This is known as the "Reply to Edison" >> (to be continued near July 14th) HDN >> >> Binary Resonant System >> ===== >> http://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb124201 >> >> >> >> ===== >> Binary Resonant Systemhttp://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb124201 >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. >> http://im.yahoo.com/ >> >> > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 16 16:07:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA13907; Tue, 16 May 2000 16:05:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 16:05:58 -0700 Message-ID: <008501bfbf89$fb80a4c0$145dadd1@default> From: "Jim Shaffer, Jr." To: References: <20000516003916.13066.qmail@web4402.mail.yahoo.com> <0b4501bfbed3$062f4000$259780d8@n8o9m1> <042901bfbef4$b9c42380$1c5dadd1@default> <3920e013.124918262@mail.midiowa.net> Subject: Re: FNG: Re: Re: 83 Years Ago Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 18:56:28 -0400 Organization: Unconventional Conventionalists MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"P4y7-.0.6P3.LHT8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15152 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >There is a recent patent on using a maser to embed a data signal in the magnetic > >field surrounding a power line, such that the signal flows entirely outside the > >wire. Perhaps this was something similar? > > Any RF signal (a few 10's of KHz) will flow on the outside of a power > line. The higher the frequency, the more to the outside. RF signals > along power lines have been used for a long time. You're talking about skin effect, right? This isn't skin effect. In the system I'm talking about, the signal is carried ENTIRELY outside the wire in the MAGNETIC field only. I don't fully understand the patent, but evidently the examiner did. I tried to find it in my message archives, with no luck. -- "Alan Turing predicted that the idea of machines thinking would be routine by the end of the century. The very second that time ran out for his prediction was the second that computers were set to demonstrate their complete stupidity because they couldn't add up dates." --Stephen Grand From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 16 16:13:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA18549; Tue, 16 May 2000 16:13:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 16:13:02 -0700 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: FNG: RE: Some help please? Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 19:26:33 -0400 Message-ID: <20000516232633234.AAA248@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"W77s13.0.WX4.uNT8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15153 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dan writes: >try http://www.sulfurlamp.com/index.htm >(original message copied below) > >Dan Quickert Hi Dan, Thanks for posting that URL. I went looking for it myself yesterday for about an hour and could find where I put the crazy thing. My filing system is about as organized as the rest of my world. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 16 17:09:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA12461; Tue, 16 May 2000 17:08:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 17:08:15 -0700 Message-ID: <3921E372.D53F5A19@csrlink.net> Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 20:10:26 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: FNG: Re: "The Rest of the Story" References: <391F22D9.6AE813D2@csrlink.net> <391ED649.6BC13AFC@worldnet.att.net> <391F647F.FC7D8D4B@csrlink.net> <39203C32.2D10CCBA@worldnet.att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"xtpdH2.0.Y23.kBU8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15154 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: NO, I was just busy arguing the same points on 5 lists. No time. MJ Daniel wrote: > Mike Johnston wrote: > > > > HI Dan, > > You are right! No wonder my car wouldn't start this morning! > > MJ > > > > > > Huh? > > I was expecting some sort of logical rebuttal to the points given, not > a strawman statement tossed out to divert my attention. > > Or do you just don't know? > > Daniel Joyce From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 16 18:15:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA11346; Tue, 16 May 2000 18:14:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 18:14:35 -0700 Message-ID: <000e01bfbf58$1add4800$15b422cf@a9o0z0> From: "Alik S" To: Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 16:59:29 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"mSgx7.0.7n2.x9V8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15155 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: Re: Re: Re: 83 Years Ago Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: R.U. Sirius To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 10:08 PM Subject: FNG: Re: Re: 83 Years Ago It's not inconceivable that a surge of lightning could >travel down one of these guides. As far as how it made it out of the dish, >I'm not sure, but it's certainly possible. >-----Original Message----- >From: Bill Wallace` >To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com >Date: Monday, May 15, 2000 9:15 PM >Subject: FNG: Re: 83 Years Ago A microwave signal can be caused to 'run along a guidewire'. There are some commercial applications like 'guidar' ('guided-radar') for perimeter protection security systems, and a few wireless PCS com schemes that use an antenna to launch a signal that then runs along a single conductor. Alik S. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 16 19:04:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA00560; Tue, 16 May 2000 19:03:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 19:03:26 -0700 Message-ID: <3921FE65.ABB4EB57@csrlink.net> Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 22:05:26 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com References: <002b01bfbd1c$d91aa800$daa134d1@a9o0z0> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"O7a5N.0.a8.ktV8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15156 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: Re: Water Car, gasoline, and $$. Status: O X-Status: see http://www.layo.com/ for something similar Alik S wrote: > Around 1987 in Vancouver there was an outfit called First Plasmic Corp that > was going to use a roll of Al wire in a tank of water to make hydrogen. > Their bright idea was to sell aluminum-oxide for ceramic manufacture and > other industrial uses. The whole thing died. > > Alik S. > > Try working out the cost of aluminium as a fuel, > >compared to the cost of gasoline. > > > > > >Regards, > > > >Robin van Spaandonk > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 16 19:39:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA17939; Tue, 16 May 2000 19:39:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 19:39:17 -0700 Message-ID: <39220599.12466AE1@csrlink.net> Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 22:36:09 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: FNG: Why The *Fork* Are We Here? References: <002401bfbe14$51aed960$b4d666ce@default> <391F62ED.8D7F2418@csrlink.net> <391FBEF4.6EE00676@netzero.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_8SkD2.0.CO4.KPW8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15157 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If you were a woman I would be in love... MJ blue_eyes wrote: > Hi folks, > > Follow Your *OWN* Dreams......... Follow your *OWN* reasons for being > *HERE*. > > I am *here* because I do not conform to the standard ignorance and/or > stupidity. I am creative,I have my own brand of stupidity. > > I do not subscribe to the conventional standards for intellectual > incompetance. > > What *test* would you have me take, and how would you judge the > the results? > > It seems to me that the major reason most of us are here is > because we DO NOT subscribe to the conventional ignorance. > So, Why compare us to the very same incompetance that causes us > to be here? > > The *DELETE* button is actually more convenient than the *Pill*. > Try it. > > David > > Mike Johnston wrote: > > Smart is ORIGINAL thought. > > > > > _____________________________________________ > NetZero - Defenders of the Free World > Click here for FREE Internet Access and Email > http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 16 21:15:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA30394; Tue, 16 May 2000 21:14:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 21:14:44 -0700 From: dtmiller@midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: FNG: Re: Re: 83 Years Ago Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 04:15:03 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Reply-To: dtmiller@midiowa.net Message-ID: <39231a4f.75491390@mail.midiowa.net> References: <20000516003916.13066.qmail@web4402.mail.yahoo.com> <0b4501bfbed3$062f4000$259780d8@n8o9m1> <042901bfbef4$b9c42380$1c5dadd1@default> <3920e013.124918262@mail.midiowa.net> <008501bfbf89$fb80a4c0$145dadd1@default> In-Reply-To: <008501bfbf89$fb80a4c0$145dadd1@default> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id VAA30353 Resent-Message-ID: <"pe1Lx.0.jQ7.poX8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15158 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 16 May 2000 18:56:28 -0400, "Jim Shaffer, Jr." wrote: >> >There is a recent patent on using a maser to embed a data signal in the >magnetic >> >field surrounding a power line, such that the signal flows entirely outside >the >> >wire. Perhaps this was something similar? >> >> Any RF signal (a few 10's of KHz) will flow on the outside of a power >> line. The higher the frequency, the more to the outside. RF signals >> along power lines have been used for a long time. > >You're talking about skin effect, right? This isn't skin effect. In the system >I'm talking about, the signal is carried ENTIRELY outside the wire in the >MAGNETIC field only. I don't fully understand the patent, but evidently the >examiner did. I tried to find it in my message archives, with no luck. Hmm. Perhaps I don't understand electromagnetic theory too good. :) But I had always thought that a moving magnetic field near a conductor would have an accompanying electric field. A Maser is a microwave amplifier (usually used as the first stage of a microwave system due to its low noise characteristic -- usually a maser is cooled by liquid nitrogen). "MASER" means Microwave Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation. It came before the LASER. The term "microwaves" are normally used to describe electro-magnetic fields. The magnetic field cannot be separated from the electric field *without some kind of field cancellation* of either the magnetic or electric field. There can be scalar electric "waves," but I'm not sure the same is true of magnetic waves. They'd be static magnets, I think. This reminds me of the people (astronomers) who keep saying the solar wind (moving charged particles) passing by the Earth don't have any effect on the Earth. Balderdash! (I've always wanted to use that in a message :) A moving charged particle (electrically charged) moving through a static magnetic field will induce a current in whatever produces the magnetic field -- in this case, the Earth. They electric and magnetic effects cannot be separated (they're different aspects of the same thing). -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moines (CDP, KB0ZDF) From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 16 21:54:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA12998; Tue, 16 May 2000 21:52:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 21:52:46 -0700 Message-ID: <000801bfbf79$ca9d07a0$15b422cf@a9o0z0> From: "Alik S" To: Subject: Re: FNG: Re: Re: 83 Years Ago Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 21:00:37 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"QRPLc2.0.zA3.TMY8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15159 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Dean T. Miller To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 4:15 AM Subject: Re: FNG: Re: Re: 83 Years Ago >On Tue, 16 May 2000 18:56:28 -0400, "Jim Shaffer, Jr." > wrote: > >>> >There is a recent patent on using a maser to embed a data signal in the >>magnetic >>> >field surrounding a power line, such that the signal flows entirely outside >>the >>> >wire. The patent most likely is 5,982,276 and it is pretty weird. Looks like someone collected whole bunch of words from a tech dictionary, mixed them thoroughly and sent them to USPTO :-) Alik S. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 16 23:08:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA09084; Tue, 16 May 2000 23:07:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 23:07:52 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: FNG: Re: Re: 83 Years Ago Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 16:07:02 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <2bd4issk525vgi7i5aelfjs7jq0qpjroie@4ax.com> References: <20000516003916.13066.qmail@web4402.mail.yahoo.com> <0b4501bfbed3$062f4000$259780d8@n8o9m1> <042901bfbef4$b9c42380$1c5dadd1@default> <3920e013.124918262@mail.midiowa.net> <008501bfbf89$fb80a4c0$145dadd1@default> <39231a4f.75491390@mail.midiowa .net> In-Reply-To: <39231a4f.75491390@mail.midiowa.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA09031 Resent-Message-ID: <"NQzNT1.0.mD2.tSZ8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15160 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 17 May 2000 04:15:03 GMT, Dean T. Miller wrote: [snip] >A moving charged particle (electrically charged) moving through a >static magnetic field will induce a current in whatever produces the >magnetic field -- in this case, the Earth. [snip] A DC electric current can also be considered to be a stream of moving charges. IOW movement alone would not seem to be enough. I think a change in speed is necessary, otherwise the moving charged particle loses no energy. The ion wind does vary to some extent, but the variations tend to be slow. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 02:32:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA02955; Wed, 17 May 2000 02:32:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 02:32:03 -0700 From: dtmiller@midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: FNG: Re: Re: 83 Years Ago Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 09:32:27 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Reply-To: dtmiller@midiowa.net Message-ID: <392566a3.95031107@mail.midiowa.net> References: <20000516003916.13066.qmail@web4402.mail.yahoo.com> <0b4501bfbed3$062f4000$259780d8@n8o9m1> <042901bfbef4$b9c42380$1c5dadd1@default> <3920e013.124918262@mail.midiowa.net> <008501bfbf89$fb80a4c0$145dadd1@default> <39231a4f.75491390@mail.midiowa .net> <2bd4issk525vgi7i5aelfjs7jq0qpjroie@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: <2bd4issk525vgi7i5aelfjs7jq0qpjroie@4ax.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id CAA02935 Resent-Message-ID: <"voLTU3.0.4k.ISc8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15161 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Robin, On Wed, 17 May 2000 16:07:02 +1000, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >On Wed, 17 May 2000 04:15:03 GMT, Dean T. Miller wrote: >[snip] >>A moving charged particle (electrically charged) moving through a >>static magnetic field will induce a current in whatever produces the >>magnetic field -- in this case, the Earth. >A DC electric current can also be considered to be a stream of moving >charges. IOW movement alone would not seem to be enough. I think a change in >speed is necessary, otherwise the moving charged particle loses no energy. >The ion wind does vary to some extent, but the variations tend to be slow. Could you give me an example of an electric current (stream of moving charges) that doesn't produce a magnetic field? I was a little bit simplistic in my explanation, because it's not really the moving charged particles that interact with the Earth's (or other) magnetic field -- it's the magnetic field associated with the moving charged particles that do the interacting. -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moines (CDP, KB0ZDF) From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 06:32:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA05976; Wed, 17 May 2000 06:32:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 06:32:07 -0700 Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 08:32:01 -0500 (CDT) From: Zack Widup X-Sender: w9sz@bluestem To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: FNG: Re: Re: 83 Years Ago In-Reply-To: <392566a3.95031107@mail.midiowa.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"FVnwI.0.FT1.Mzf8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15162 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 17 May 2000, Dean T. Miller wrote: > Hi Robin, > > On Wed, 17 May 2000 16:07:02 +1000, Robin van Spaandonk > wrote: > > >On Wed, 17 May 2000 04:15:03 GMT, Dean T. Miller wrote: > >[snip] > >>A moving charged particle (electrically charged) moving through a > >>static magnetic field will induce a current in whatever produces the > >>magnetic field -- in this case, the Earth. > > >A DC electric current can also be considered to be a stream of moving > >charges. IOW movement alone would not seem to be enough. I think a change in > >speed is necessary, otherwise the moving charged particle loses no energy. > >The ion wind does vary to some extent, but the variations tend to be slow. > > Could you give me an example of an electric current (stream of moving > charges) that doesn't produce a magnetic field? > An electric current will produce a magnetic field. A steady-state current or a steady-state field will not induce an electric field in a motionless conductor. There must be a time rate of change in either the field or the conductor in order to induce a field. In the case of the earth, it is spinning. It is also moving in an orbit around the sun. The fields produced are fairly complex. See the book "The Solar-Terrestrial Environment" by J. Hargreaves. Zack (W9SZ) From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 09:39:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA27453; Wed, 17 May 2000 09:38:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 09:38:50 -0700 MR-Received: by mta EUROPA; Relayed; Wed, 17 May 2000 12:37:26 -0400 (EDT) MR-Received: by mta GOSIP; Relayed; Wed, 17 May 2000 12:18:09 -0400 (EDT) Alternate-recipient: prohibited Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 12:12:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 In-reply-to: <391F22D9.6AE813D2@csrlink.net> To: freenrg-l Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Posting-date: Wed, 17 May 2000 12:37:00 -0400 (EDT) Importance: normal Priority: normal UA-content-id: E2694ZYLUI1TV0 X400-MTS-identifier: [;62732171500002/4736203@ODNVMS] A1-type: MAIL Hop-count: 2 Resent-Message-ID: <"uy5w91.0.mi6.Qii8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15163 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: RE: "The Rest of the Story" Status: O X-Status: Mike, Nice idea, wish I had thought of it ;^) There's nothing new under the sun, I would think a number of people have come up with it. Check out the archive for this list: http://www.escribe.com/science/freenrg/ Originaly posted 5 Nov 1998 Loophole in the Laws of Science All, OK guys & gals, especially those of you who have access to all those standard formulas and efficiency statistics on different generation systems. Consider the following system. 1 - Through electrolysis generate Hydrogen & Oxygen for a given amount of power consumed, we'll call it "C". 2 - Feed the oxygen only into a standard engine/generator, the more efficient the better. The oxygen should increase the efficiency by a certain amount, we'll call this gain "G1". 3 - Run a pipeline up a mountain and vent the hydrogen into the pipeline. At some point in the pipeline have a turbine driven by the flow of rising hydrogen, this turbine in turn drives a generator for an additional energy return we'll call "G2". 4 - Burn the gas using the oxygen in the air at the top of the mountain in another standard engine/generator. This energy gain we will call "G3". 5 - Run the water generated in step 4 down another pipeline to the bottom of the mountain. At the bottom we have another turbine to turn the momentum of the water into yet more energy, call it "G4". 6 - According to TR Knudtson we could extract some additional Ionic energy from this flow of water. If we can we will call it "G5?". So that the amount of power consumed "C" returns "G1+G2+G3+G4+G5?". It could be expressed as: (G1+G2+G3+G4+G5?) - C = X Would X be positive or negative? OK, thou keepers of formulas & efficiency statistics, how many watts can be generated at each step. For the sake of discussion we will say that "C" is one watt of power consumed. Bill ________________________________________________________/////___________ | William E. Briggs Jr. | ( ~ ~ ) | | webriggs@concentric.net | &-@-@-& | |-------------------------|---------------------------ooo--U--ooo--------| | XLN Systems, Inc. |Ideas presented are my own hair brained ideas,| | Columbus, OH |and not the hair brained ideas of my employer.| ------------------------------------------------------------------------ PS. Since it was originally posted I've come up with some additional energy gains. The engine at the top of the mountain is going to have a lot of waste heat that can also be used: It's going to be cold up that high, the operators could use some of the heat to keep warm, instead of trucking heating fuel up there. You could vent the hot coooling air and exhaust into a tube with a windmill like wind turbine at the top powered by the rising hot air. If it is really cold up there you could be melting some of the snow and ice that accumulates above the snow line to add to the water generated by burning hydrogen. Bill From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 13:32:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA12824; Wed, 17 May 2000 13:30:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 13:30:44 -0700 From: HLafonte@aol.com Message-ID: <34.549da0e.26545b62@aol.com> Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 16:30:26 EDT To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, energy21@listbot.com, jlnlabs@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 102 Resent-Message-ID: <"ihjJo.0.983.p5m8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15164 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: Was Newman right to a degree? Status: O X-Status: I have been taking a look back at Joe Newman's work. I think he was own to something, but for a number of reasons the devices he built did not show overunity in a clear fashion. I am putting together a paper to explain why I think this happened and how SOME of his basic ideas were sound and they could be incorporated into a large scale device to show overunity on a large scale. I will post in day or two with drawing. I see at this point, permanents magnets as a very hard if not impossible way to tap free energy. They are fixed by there very nature and I am starting to think at this point that electromagnetic means is the way to approach the free energy problem. Butch LaFonte From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 13:33:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA13558; Wed, 17 May 2000 13:32:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 13:32:32 -0700 Message-ID: <002901bfc03e$e9022340$ddd666ce@default> From: "Chris O'Barr" To: Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 16:31:40 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"zcL2w.0.hJ3.W7m8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15165 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: FNG: Re: RE: "The Rest of the Story" Status: O X-Status: I'm sure there are even more ways of collecting energy along the way. But the whole thing sounds to good to be true, as always. I will leave the squabbling to the more "educated" people though. By the way, there system for electrolysis below the normal voltage on Keelynet that you could add to the equation. ;-) -----Original Message----- From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 To: freenrg-l Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 12:39 PM Subject: FNG: RE: "The Rest of the Story" >Mike, > >Nice idea, wish I had thought of it ;^) > >There's nothing new under the sun, I would think a number of people have >come up with it. > >Check out the archive for this list: > >http://www.escribe.com/science/freenrg/ > >Originaly posted 5 Nov 1998 > >Loophole in the Laws of Science > >All, > >OK guys & gals, especially those of you who have access to all those >standard formulas and efficiency statistics on different generation >systems. > >Consider the following system. > >1 - Through electrolysis generate Hydrogen & Oxygen for a given amount of >power consumed, we'll call it "C". > >2 - Feed the oxygen only into a standard engine/generator, the more >efficient the better. The oxygen should increase the efficiency by a >certain amount, we'll call this gain "G1". > >3 - Run a pipeline up a mountain and vent the hydrogen into the pipeline. >At some point in the pipeline have a turbine driven by the flow of rising >hydrogen, this turbine in turn drives a generator for an additional energy >return we'll call "G2". > >4 - Burn the gas using the oxygen in the air at the top of the mountain in >another standard engine/generator. This energy gain we will call "G3". > >5 - Run the water generated in step 4 down another pipeline to the bottom >of the mountain. At the bottom we have another turbine to turn the >momentum of the water into yet more energy, call it "G4". > >6 - According to TR Knudtson we could extract some additional Ionic energy >from this flow of water. If we can we will call it "G5?". > >So that the amount of power consumed "C" returns "G1+G2+G3+G4+G5?". > >It could be expressed as: (G1+G2+G3+G4+G5?) - C = X > >Would X be positive or negative? > >OK, thou keepers of formulas & efficiency statistics, how many watts can be >generated at each step. For the sake of discussion we will say that "C" is >one watt of power consumed. > >Bill > > ________________________________________________________/////___________ >| William E. Briggs Jr. | ( ~ ~ ) | >| webriggs@concentric.net | &-@-@-& | >|-------------------------|---------------------------ooo--U--ooo--------| >| XLN Systems, Inc. |Ideas presented are my own hair brained ideas,| >| Columbus, OH |and not the hair brained ideas of my employer.| > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > >PS. Since it was originally posted I've come up with some additional energy >gains. > >The engine at the top of the mountain is going to have a lot of waste heat >that can also be used: > >It's going to be cold up that high, the operators could use some of the >heat to keep warm, instead of trucking heating fuel up there. > >You could vent the hot coooling air and exhaust into a tube with a windmill >like wind turbine at the top powered by the rising hot air. > >If it is really cold up there you could be melting some of the snow and ice >that accumulates above the snow line to add to the water generated by >burning hydrogen. > >Bill > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 14:09:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA28301; Wed, 17 May 2000 14:07:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 14:07:40 -0700 Message-ID: <20000517153038.7669.qmail@web4403.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 08:30:38 -0700 (PDT) From: harvey norris Subject: Re: FNG: lightning reciever To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"n_J7Q.0.2w6.Qem8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15166 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Chris O'Barr wrote: > I'm not very electronically inclined, so don't > be surprised if I ask a stupid question. Can a small > receiver be made to withstand a lightning strike (if > the circuit is complete), or is a special, heavy > duty receiver needed? Will lightning burn something > if the electricity passes right through it? And, > what is the average voltage and endurance time for a > lightning bolt, does anyone know? > Martin Uman points out that a ligthning flash has a duration of about 1/2 sec. A flash consists of several components among which are usually 3 or 4 high current pulses called strokes. Typical strokes last 10 - 70 ms.According to Feynman,(Lectures on Physics) potential differences of 20,30 or even 100 million volts exist between the cloud and earth. Each individual discharge flash contains between 20 and 30 coulombs of charge. Using the figure of .5 sec to calculate the wattage of the energy release over time implies that nearly 20 GW, or 26.8 milliom hp is liberated bringing down the 20 or 20 coulombs. Tesla is quoted as having produced movements of electrical energy equivalent to 18 million hp at Wardenclyff. HDN ===== Binary Resonant Systemhttp://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb124201 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 15:09:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA21276; Wed, 17 May 2000 15:08:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 15:08:02 -0700 MR-Received: by mta EUROPA; Relayed; Wed, 17 May 2000 18:06:35 -0400 (EDT) MR-Received: by mta GOSIP; Relayed; Wed, 17 May 2000 17:46:45 -0400 (EDT) Alternate-recipient: prohibited Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 18:01:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 Subject: Re: FNG: Re: Re: Hey Bill !!!!!!!! In-reply-to: To: freenrg-l Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Posting-date: Wed, 17 May 2000 18:06:00 -0400 (EDT) Importance: normal Priority: normal UA-content-id: E2678ZYLUPV7FY X400-MTS-identifier: [;53608171500002/4737497@ODNVMS] A1-type: MAIL Hop-count: 2 Resent-Message-ID: <"H57rk1.0.7C5._Wn8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15167 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Bill, Hey I like the FNG: part but the "Re: Re: Re:"'s are getting out of hand. Re: FNG: Re: Re: Re: & FNG: Re: Re: Re: ad nauseum It takes up so much space you can't read the subject... Is there anything that can be done about limiting it to just one Re: ? Bill (the other Bill) webriggs@concentric.net Briggs@XLNsystems.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 15:30:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA27060; Wed, 17 May 2000 15:28:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 15:28:39 -0700 Message-ID: <001301bfc04f$22334d00$95d666ce@default> From: "Chris O'Barr" To: Subject: Re: FNG: Re: Re: Hey Bill !!!!!!!! Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 18:27:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"o6S4I.0.ec6.Kqn8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15168 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Who wants to answer a chemistry question? I don't want to ask on the list because it's not affiliated with FRNG, so I would like to ask privately. -----Original Message----- From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 To: freenrg-l Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 6:10 PM Subject: Re: FNG: Re: Re: Hey Bill !!!!!!!! >Bill, > >Hey I like the FNG: part but the "Re: Re: Re:"'s are getting out of hand. > >Re: FNG: Re: Re: Re: > >& > >FNG: Re: Re: Re: ad nauseum > >It takes up so much space you can't read the subject... > > >Is there anything that can be done about limiting it to just one Re: ? > >Bill (the other Bill) >webriggs@concentric.net >Briggs@XLNsystems.com > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 15:42:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA31237; Wed, 17 May 2000 15:40:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 15:40:55 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: FNG: Re: Re: 83 Years Ago Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 08:40:07 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20000516003916.13066.qmail@web4402.mail.yahoo.com> <0b4501bfbed3$062f4000$259780d8@n8o9m1> <042901bfbef4$b9c42380$1c5dadd1@default> <3920e013.124918262@mail.midiowa.net> <008501bfbf89$fb80a4c0$145dadd1@default> <39231a4f.75491390@mail.midiowa .net> <2bd4issk525vgi7i5aelfjs7jq0qpjroie@4ax.com> <392566a3.95031107@mail.midiowa.net> In-Reply-To: <392566a3.95031107@mail.midiowa.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA31190 Resent-Message-ID: <"trrsd3.0.zd7.r_n8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15169 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 17 May 2000 09:32:27 GMT, Dean T. Miller wrote: [snip] >Could you give me an example of an electric current (stream of moving >charges) that doesn't produce a magnetic field? > >I was a little bit simplistic in my explanation, because it's not >really the moving charged particles that interact with the Earth's (or >other) magnetic field -- it's the magnetic field associated with the >moving charged particles that do the interacting. [snip] Hi Dean, I think Zack did a better job of answering this than I could have. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 16:04:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA04542; Wed, 17 May 2000 16:03:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 16:03:47 -0700 Message-ID: <000e01bfc04e$c0050600$95d666ce@default> From: "Chris O'Barr" To: Subject: Re: FNG: lightning reciever Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 18:25:01 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"V01pS.0.t61.ILo8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15170 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thank you much :) -----Original Message----- From: harvey norris To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 5:10 PM Subject: Re: FNG: lightning reciever > >--- Chris O'Barr wrote: >> I'm not very electronically inclined, so don't >> be surprised if I ask a stupid question. Can a small >> receiver be made to withstand a lightning strike (if >> the circuit is complete), or is a special, heavy >> duty receiver needed? Will lightning burn something >> if the electricity passes right through it? And, >> what is the average voltage and endurance time for a >> lightning bolt, does anyone know? >> >Martin Uman points out that a ligthning flash has a >duration of about 1/2 sec. A flash consists of several >components among which are usually 3 or 4 high current >pulses called strokes. Typical strokes last 10 - 70 >ms.According to Feynman,(Lectures on Physics) >potential differences of 20,30 or even 100 million >volts exist between the cloud and earth. Each >individual discharge flash contains between 20 and 30 >coulombs of charge. Using the figure of .5 sec to >calculate the wattage of the energy release over time >implies that nearly 20 GW, or 26.8 milliom hp is >liberated bringing down the 20 or 20 coulombs. Tesla >is quoted as having produced movements of electrical >energy equivalent to 18 million hp at Wardenclyff. HDN > > >===== >Binary Resonant Systemhttp://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb124201 > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com/ > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 16:16:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA09199; Wed, 17 May 2000 16:15:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 16:15:39 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34.549da0e.26545b62@aol.com> References: <34.549da0e.26545b62@aol.com> Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 13:15:26 -1000 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: FNG: Was Newman right to a degree? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"kevDu1.0.YF2.NWo8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15171 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: What happened to all those possibly overunity magnet-gate things? I take it they must not have worked out if you're more interested now in doing a historical perspective on the failed Energy Machine of Joseph Newman. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI >I have been taking a look back at Joe Newman's work. I think he was own to >something, but for a number of reasons the devices he built did not show >overunity in a clear fashion. I am putting together a paper to explain why I >think this happened and how SOME of his basic ideas were sound and they could >be incorporated into a large scale device to show overunity on a large scale. >I will post in day or two with drawing. I see at this point, permanents >magnets as a very hard if not impossible way to tap free energy. They are >fixed by there very nature and I am starting to think at this point that >electromagnetic means is the way to approach the free energy problem. >Butch LaFonte From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 17:26:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA04358; Wed, 17 May 2000 17:25:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 17:25:27 -0700 Message-ID: <001c01bfc05f$de2ed320$0c9da0d1@pavilion> From: "Norm Silliman" To: Subject: Re: FNG: Re: Re: 83 Years Ago Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 17:27:36 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"bYJc-1.0.u31.sXp8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15172 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: Dean T. Miller Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 2:32 AM >Hi Robin, > >On Wed, 17 May 2000 16:07:02 +1000, Robin van Spaandonk > wrote: > >>On Wed, 17 May 2000 04:15:03 GMT, Dean T. Miller wrote: >>[snip] >>>A moving charged particle (electrically charged) moving through a >>>static magnetic field will induce a current in whatever produces the >>>magnetic field -- in this case, the Earth. > >>A DC electric current can also be considered to be a stream of moving >>charges. IOW movement alone would not seem to be enough. I think a >>change in speed is necessary, otherwise the moving charged particle loses >>no energy. >>The ion wind does vary to some extent, but the variations tend to be slow. > >Could you give me an example of an electric current (stream of moving >charges) that doesn't produce a magnetic field? How about any electric current using Tin (Sn) or Mercury (Hg) conductors. > >I was a little bit simplistic in my explanation, because it's not >really the moving charged particles that interact with the Earth's (or >other) magnetic field -- it's the magnetic field associated with the >moving charged particles that do the interacting. Well, that is the dogma from the establishment. Norm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 18:15:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA22156; Wed, 17 May 2000 18:14:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 18:14:57 -0700 From: HLafonte@aol.com Message-ID: <5f.557810a.26549de2@aol.com> Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 21:14:10 EDT Subject: Re:to Rick from Butch:Was Newman right? To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 102 Resent-Message-ID: <"QA0gp1.0.1Q5.FGq8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15173 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 5/17/00 6:16:32 PM Central Daylight Time, rick@highsurf.com writes: > What happened to all those possibly overunity magnet-gate things? I > take it they must not have worked out if you're more interested now > in doing a historical perspective on the failed Energy Machine of > Joseph Newman. > > - Rick Monteverde Rick, You are exactly right, they all failed. Butch From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 18:18:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA23309; Wed, 17 May 2000 18:17:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 18:17:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: bilb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 18:17:13 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-l Subject: Re: Hey Bill !!!!!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"94Tq22.0.sh5.YIq8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15174 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 17 May 2000, Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 wrote: > Bill, > > Hey I like the FNG: part but the "Re: Re: Re:"'s are getting out of hand. Looks like the FNR: is interacting with people's email programs, and making them append extra "Re:". I'll turn it off for the moment. Other lists say [FNG], so maybe the brackets are needed in order to stop the multiple "Re:" ................................freenrg-L.................................... William Beaty bilb@eskimo.com EE/Programmer/exhibit-designer/science-nerd Moderator: FREENRG-L VORTEX-L TAOSHUM-L WEBHEAD-L http://www.eskimo.com/~bilb/freenrgl/flist.html Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com voice:206-781-3320 From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 18:50:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA04076; Wed, 17 May 2000 18:50:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 18:50:02 -0700 Message-ID: <39234988.EA1B67AF@ihug.co.nz> Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 13:38:16 +1200 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hey Bill !!!!!!!! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FaTB03.0.Z_.9nq8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15175 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A In a case like: Re: FNG: Re: Re: 83 Years Ago It is not the FNG that can be to blame... Only in a case where Re: follows FNG: not when Re: follows Re: So I don't think that changing it will help much.... William Beaty wrote: > On Wed, 17 May 2000, Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 wrote: > > > Bill, > > > > Hey I like the FNG: part but the "Re: Re: Re:"'s are getting out of hand. > > Looks like the FNR: is interacting with people's email programs, and > making them append extra "Re:". > > I'll turn it off for the moment. Other lists say [FNG], so maybe the > brackets are needed in order to stop the multiple "Re:" > > ................................freenrg-L.................................... > William Beaty bilb@eskimo.com EE/Programmer/exhibit-designer/science-nerd > Moderator: FREENRG-L VORTEX-L TAOSHUM-L WEBHEAD-L > http://www.eskimo.com/~bilb/freenrgl/flist.html > Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com voice:206-781-3320 From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 19:07:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA11427; Wed, 17 May 2000 19:06:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 19:06:04 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: FNG: Re: Re: 83 Years Ago Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 12:05:05 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <001c01bfc05f$de2ed320$0c9da0d1@pavilion> In-Reply-To: <001c01bfc05f$de2ed320$0c9da0d1@pavilion> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA11403 Resent-Message-ID: <"9l3fW.0.Po2.70r8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15176 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 17 May 2000 17:27:36 -0700, Norm Silliman wrote: [snip] >How about any electric current using Tin (Sn) or Mercury (Hg) conductors. Hg might make a slight difference, because the Hg is fluid, and might flow slightly in the opposite direction to the electron current, resulting in a minor current of positive ions. However the difference in mass between an electron and a mercury atom is huge, so I would expect any effect to be almost immeasurably small. [prepare for incoming torpedoes] ;). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 19:38:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA22179; Wed, 17 May 2000 19:37:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 19:37:42 -0700 Sender: crusoe@eskimo.com Message-ID: <39230535.D0C31B0F@worldnet.att.net> Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 15:46:45 -0500 From: Daniel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14-15mdk i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: FNG: RE: "The Rest of the Story" References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"2Ed99.0.OQ5.rTr8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15177 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 wrote: > > Mike, > > Nice idea, wish I had thought of it ;^) > > There's nothing new under the sun, I would think a number of people have > come up with it. > > Check out the archive for this list: > > http://www.escribe.com/science/freenrg/ > > Originaly posted 5 Nov 1998 > > Loophole in the Laws of Science > > All, > > OK guys & gals, especially those of you who have access to all those > standard formulas and efficiency statistics on different generation > systems. > > Consider the following system. > > 1 - Through electrolysis generate Hydrogen & Oxygen for a given amount of > power consumed, we'll call it "C". > > 2 - Feed the oxygen only into a standard engine/generator, the more > efficient the better. The oxygen should increase the efficiency by a > certain amount, we'll call this gain "G1". > > 3 - Run a pipeline up a mountain and vent the hydrogen into the pipeline. > At some point in the pipeline have a turbine driven by the flow of rising > hydrogen, this turbine in turn drives a generator for an additional energy > return we'll call "G2". > > 4 - Burn the gas using the oxygen in the air at the top of the mountain in > another standard engine/generator. This energy gain we will call "G3". > > 5 - Run the water generated in step 4 down another pipeline to the bottom > of the mountain. At the bottom we have another turbine to turn the > momentum of the water into yet more energy, call it "G4". > > 6 - According to TR Knudtson we could extract some additional Ionic energy > from this flow of water. If we can we will call it "G5?". > > So that the amount of power consumed "C" returns "G1+G2+G3+G4+G5?". > > It could be expressed as: (G1+G2+G3+G4+G5?) - C = X > > Would X be positive or negative? > > OK, thou keepers of formulas & efficiency statistics, how many watts can be > generated at each step. For the sake of discussion we will say that "C" is > one watt of power consumed. > > Bill > But this isn't free energy, just a clever generator system. You're relying on the cold found at the top of the mountain, so really, it's just a fancy ol'fashioned heat cycle... You're also relying on external supplies of oxygen, and at the top of the mountain, oxygen is much harder to come by. So you need to run a compressor to get enough so the mountaintop generator don't starve for air ( known problem, and a energy sink ). This isn't a very good free energy scheme. You could the same thing with a compressed ammonia system. Boil the ammonia at ground level using solar energy, let it travel to the top, condense, and fall back. Much simpler, and energy efficient. A similair system has been devised for use in the ocean, cycling ammonia between the warm surface waters, and deep cold water.... From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 19:40:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA23645; Wed, 17 May 2000 19:39:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 19:39:46 -0700 Sender: crusoe@eskimo.com Message-ID: <39230597.2318EFC8@worldnet.att.net> Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 15:48:23 -0500 From: Daniel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14-15mdk i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: FNG: Re: Re: Hey Bill !!!!!!!! References: <001301bfc04f$22334d00$95d666ce@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"1uFkd.0.An5.lVr8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15178 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris O'Barr wrote: > > Who wants to answer a chemistry question? I don't want to ask on the > list because it's not affiliated with FRNG, so I would like to ask > privately. Ask me privately if you like.... I have a BS in chemistry with 33 graduate hours.... Daniel Joyce daniel.a.joyce@worldnet.att.net From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 20:21:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA10878; Wed, 17 May 2000 20:20:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 20:20:42 -0700 Message-ID: <39236133.B82D6358@csrlink.net> Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 23:19:16 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael S. Johnston" Subject: EMF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"G5pTz1.0.rf2.A6s8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15179 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, Maybe someone knows about this. Does quantum physics deal with the fact that everything is an energy field? For example you have a universal field then a galactic field then a solar system field then a planetary field then your field then a field for each atom in you. How can you accurately describe even an atomic field without taking into account all of the other ones that affect it? In my electrodynamics book I can't find where these external fields are taken into account except maybe as gravity. For that matter if you look at it this way then objects are only concentrated expressions of the larger field. This would explain why permanent magnets never wear out. It also makes for a better understanding of gravity. After all a field of an object inside the larger planetary field might indeed have a hard time leaving. Just like the parts of your body have a hard time just taking off on their own. Anybody know about this? MJ From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 20:23:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA11943; Wed, 17 May 2000 20:22:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 20:22:38 -0700 Message-ID: <392361AA.740033E7@csrlink.net> Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 23:21:15 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael S. Johnston" Subject: Source for Platinum for catalyst Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Qanqy1.0._u2.z7s8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15180 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, Had a thought today..., stop me if you've heard this already.... For those who are interested in separating water, we all know that an inert metal, such as platinum, is the best catalyst right? Yes. Kinda pricey though isn't it? Well I just realized that you can get it in a junkyard.Catalytic converters from automobiles are filled with little balls of platinum/palladium. I guess a new one would be better but even there you aren't paying nearly what you would for a bar of platinum. MJ From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 20:28:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA14012; Wed, 17 May 2000 20:27:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 20:27:28 -0700 Message-ID: <392362CD.5BF8B754@csrlink.net> Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 23:26:06 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael S. Johnston" Subject: Electrolysis Boost Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"IrOUf3.0.oQ3.VCs8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15181 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, Has anyone ever tried electrolyzing water then running the seam through a boiler/turbine setup to extract the energy and then running the steam over carbon (water gas H2 and CO) then running that over Iron (releases H2 and the water gas reverses the reaction by turning the resulting FeO3 back to Fe by turning the Co into CO2)? If they did then you could run the resulting H2 back through the turbine and lessen the amount that has to be produced by the electrolyzer. Just a thought. MJ From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 20:28:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA14224; Wed, 17 May 2000 20:27:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 20:27:59 -0700 From: dtmiller@midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: FNG: Re: Re: 83 Years Ago Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 03:28:29 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Reply-To: dtmiller@midiowa.net Message-ID: <39246313.159655712@mail.midiowa.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA14175 Resent-Message-ID: <"l4A_K.0.2U3.-Cs8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15182 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 17 May 2000 08:32:01 -0500 (CDT), Zack Widup wrote: >An electric current will produce a magnetic field. A steady-state current >or a steady-state field will not induce an electric field in a motionless >conductor. There must be a time rate of change in either the field or the >conductor in order to induce a field. > >In the case of the earth, it is spinning. It is also moving in an orbit >around the sun. The fields produced are fairly complex. Yup. And like the atmospheric wind, the solar wind is always slightly varying in direction, intensity and speed. -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moines (CDP, KB0ZDF) From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 21:51:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA08531; Wed, 17 May 2000 21:51:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 21:51:01 -0700 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 22:43:29 -0600 From: "C. Green" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off Reply-To: cgren@mailcity.com X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: FNG: Was Newman right to a degree? X-Sender-Ip: 162.42.18.230 Organization: MailCity (http://www.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Language: en Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FMgRT2.0.952.qQt8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15183 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: They work! Newmans machine works also. I assumed that that was a given, for free energy researchers. Why would you think they don't work? > What happened to all those possibly overunity magnet-gate things? I > take it they must not have worked out if you're more interested now > in doing a historical perspective on the failed Energy Machine of > Joseph Newman. > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI Get your FREE Email at http://mailcity.lycos.com Get your PERSONALIZED START PAGE at http://my.lycos.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 22:14:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA15088; Wed, 17 May 2000 22:12:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 22:12:22 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Source for Platinum for catalyst Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 15:11:30 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <392361AA.740033E7@csrlink.net> In-Reply-To: <392361AA.740033E7@csrlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id WAA15056 Resent-Message-ID: <"Zk73w2.0.Yh3.rkt8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15184 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 17 May 2000 23:21:15 -0400, Mike Johnston wrote: [snip] >pricey though isn't it? Well I just realized that you can get it in a >junkyard.Catalytic converters from automobiles are filled with little [snip] Let us know if you actually find any. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 22:16:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA15907; Wed, 17 May 2000 22:14:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 22:14:16 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electrolysis Boost Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 15:13:23 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <5uu6isgp03rkbp70e5nt819cd1ethh6cns@4ax.com> References: <392362CD.5BF8B754@csrlink.net> In-Reply-To: <392362CD.5BF8B754@csrlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id WAA15876 Resent-Message-ID: <"sCZlo.0.Pu3.emt8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15185 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 17 May 2000 23:26:06 -0400, Mike Johnston wrote: >Hi, > Has anyone ever tried electrolyzing water then running the seam >through a boiler/turbine setup to extract the energy and then running >the steam over carbon (water gas H2 and CO) then running that over Iron >(releases H2 and the water gas reverses the reaction by turning the >resulting FeO3 back to Fe by turning the Co into CO2)? If they did then >you could run the resulting H2 back through the turbine and lessen the >amount that has to be produced by the electrolyzer. >Just a thought. >MJ Or, you could just leave the electrolyzer out altogether.... Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 02:18:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA03702; Thu, 18 May 2000 02:17:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 02:17:58 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5f.557810a.26549de2@aol.com> References: <5f.557810a.26549de2@aol.com> Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 23:17:46 -1000 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re:to Rick from Butch:Was Newman right? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"tDppz2.0.jv.5Lx8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15186 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Butch - I wish something had worked. I think that Finsrud device seems to work. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI >Rick, You are exactly right, they all failed. >Butch From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 04:58:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA03250; Thu, 18 May 2000 04:57:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 04:57:37 -0700 Message-ID: <3923D9DF.E1A5D960@harti.com> Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 13:54:07 +0200 From: Stefan Hartmann Organization: Hartmann Multimedia Service X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [de]C-CCK-MCD QXW03200 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Newman-L Mailing List , Free Energy , "jlnlabs@egroups.com" Subject: Re: Minn Kota does not use Newman Technology ! X-Priority: 2 (High) References: <8018-39238451-3629@storefull-287.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <3923D6E7.C4B32B00@harti.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"lmr7q.0.do.mgz8v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15187 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I wanted to add: if Minn Kota would use Newman technology, they would also use MECHANICAL Commutators and not an electronic pulse width circuit ! Newman motors are only special because of the use of a mechanical commutator and the self generating discharge effects at the arc gaps occuring just at a mechanical commutator. There were many people who over the years tried to build Newman motors with electronical commutation and ALL failed to be OU ! All were only just efficient at about max. 70 to 80 %. I know a few people who failed this way. The trick is just the mechanical commutator with the arcs occurring at it and the negative back current pulses this way. This way the input power into the motor is reduced at the same RPM, so the same mechanical output power needs less input power. But it is all only due to the arcs at the commutator generating the negative current pulses.. (Maybe it is just a chemical reaction by oxidating the commutator plates and converting this to electricity back to the battery. Regards, Stefan. Stefan Hartmann schrieb: > > Dave, > > the MinnKota just has an electronic pulse width modulation > circuit, > so at low speeds it just pulses the 12 or 24 Volts DC of the battery > to the motor > at an adjustable duty cycle, so you can regulate the motor > speed. > This way only when the motor runs slow they don´t loose energy > on a "shunt" resistor to have the speed low.... > > This way they just claim 500 % more compared to a motor > not having the pulse width adjustment circuit but using > a shunt to prevent high current flow, BUT loosing much energy > in heating the resistor ! > > I guess the Minn Kota motors are not really so much special... > Newman is overexagurating on it.... > Also the motors do not use Newman technology, cause they have > low ohmic resistances inside the coils and not much wire... > They probably have just very strong permanent magnets like Neodymns... > > Newman´s secret is just in the arc gap of his commutator with the > self generating discharge effect (like Correa and Chernetski devices), > but I guess he had never realized that himself. > > Regards, Stefan. > > daveem m schrieb: > > > > Evan: > > Regarding the wording on the Minn Kota motor, The exact wording on the > > label says "Gives you up to 500 % more running time per battery charge," > > and it also has a graph showing what I guess is a conventional motor in > > comparison to their model. On the graph is looks more like a 100 % > > improvement, which is still pretty impressive. > > > > Regarding the exact details of Dr Hastings plunder, you mentioned some > > if it being private to prevent the further theft of Joes ideas, and I > > can appreciate that, You don't give billion dollar ideas away with out a > > patent, but you did tell me about one gentleman who successfully build > > one after reading joes book. I will assume this means the information > > one needs to build a Newman motor is all in the book, and commercially > > available through Minn Kota, I don't understand all the concern over > > proprietary disclosure contracts, > > Dave > > > > > > -- > > Best regards, Stefan Hartmann. > -- > Hartmann Multimedia Service, > Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany > Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498 > email: harti@harti.com info@ccard.net > http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB ! -- Best regards, Stefan Hartmann. -- Hartmann Multimedia Service, Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498 email: harti@harti.com info@ccard.net http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB ! From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 07:42:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA28660; Thu, 18 May 2000 07:42:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 07:42:09 -0700 Message-ID: <002701bfc0d7$26f5ae40$0892f426@Dabney.com> From: "Red Leader" To: References: Subject: Re: FNG: Hey Bill !!!!!!!! Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 09:41:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"yYbvV2.0.a_6.0509v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15188 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bill wrote: > Is there anything that can be done about limiting it to just one Re: ? Some of this has to do with individual e-mail programs that automatically tack on an extra Re: when they reply, regardless. I just always edit the subject line when replying. Emmett Hawkins From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 08:15:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA08727; Thu, 18 May 2000 08:14:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 08:14:17 -0700 From: UNIR2B1NM@aol.com Message-ID: <65.46f21b6.265562a3@aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:13:39 EDT Subject: WHAT ABOUT THE WATER CAR?? To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 101 Resent-Message-ID: <"UcSfO2.0.E82.9Z09v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15189 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi! So, is there any news about the Phillipino inventor's electrolysis retrofit for auto's????????? --Russ From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 09:00:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA25597; Thu, 18 May 2000 08:59:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 08:59:10 -0700 Message-Id: <200005181446.e4IEkX713591@bigbox.plug-in.com.br> From: "Marcelo Puhl" Organization: Computec Ltda To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, energy21@listbot.com, jlnlabs@egroups.com Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:48:16 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: FNG: Was Newman right to a degree? Reply-to: mark@plug-in.com.br Priority: normal In-reply-to: <34.549da0e.26545b62@aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12) Resent-Message-ID: <"N0GEw2.0.mF6.DD19v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15190 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > I have been taking a look back at Joe Newman's work. I think he was own to > something, but for a number of reasons the devices he built did not show > overunity in a clear fashion. I am putting together a paper to explain why I > think this happened and how SOME of his basic ideas were sound and they could be > incorporated into a large scale device to show overunity on a large scale. I > will post in day or two with drawing. I see at this point, permanents magnets as > a very hard if not impossible way to tap free energy. They are fixed by there > very nature and I am starting to think at this point that electromagnetic means > is the way to approach the free energy problem. Butch LaFonte > Have you tried the VTA device ? Seems to be electromagnetic AND use permanent magnets. Marcelo Puhl mark@plug-in.com.br ------------------------------------------- Get paid to surf the WEB ! Ganhe dinheiro enquanto surfa na Internet ! http://alladvantage.com/go.asp?refid=DTJ608 ------------------------------------------- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 13:21:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA29696; Thu, 18 May 2000 13:20:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 13:20:23 -0700 Message-ID: <001101bfc106$67dc0420$7fd666ce@default> From: "Chris O'Barr" To: Subject: Re: FNG: Re: Re: Hey Bill !!!!!!!! Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 16:19:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"z8P242.0.tF7.7259v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15191 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robin already answered most of my questions, but I do have one left. Is it true that the fuel/oxidizer mixture that produces the least amount of smoke is the most "balanced"? I thank you for your consideration. Everything you do counts toward something. :) -----Original Message----- From: Daniel To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 10:43 PM Subject: Re: FNG: Re: Re: Hey Bill !!!!!!!! >Chris O'Barr wrote: >> >> Who wants to answer a chemistry question? I don't want to ask on the >> list because it's not affiliated with FRNG, so I would like to ask >> privately. > > Ask me privately if you like.... > > I have a BS in chemistry with 33 graduate hours.... > > Daniel Joyce > > daniel.a.joyce@worldnet.att.net > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 13:58:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA09792; Thu, 18 May 2000 13:57:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 13:57:26 -0700 Message-ID: <003901bfc108$6afe19c0$7fd666ce@default> From: "Chris O'Barr" To: Subject: Re: FNG: Re: Re: Hey Bill !!!!!!!! Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 16:34:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"65RPf.0.VO2.ra59v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15193 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I just want you to know I intended to send this to Daniel, but I ACCIDENTALLY sent it to the list. Sorry. -----Original Message----- From: Chris O'Barr To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Thursday, May 18, 2000 4:22 PM Subject: Re: FNG: Re: Re: Hey Bill !!!!!!!! > Robin already answered most of my questions, but I do have one left. Is >it true that the fuel/oxidizer mixture that produces the least amount of >smoke is the most "balanced"? > I thank you for your consideration. Everything you do counts toward >something. :) >-----Original Message----- >From: Daniel >To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com >Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 10:43 PM >Subject: Re: FNG: Re: Re: Hey Bill !!!!!!!! > > >>Chris O'Barr wrote: >>> >>> Who wants to answer a chemistry question? I don't want to ask on the >>> list because it's not affiliated with FRNG, so I would like to ask >>> privately. >> >> Ask me privately if you like.... >> >> I have a BS in chemistry with 33 graduate hours.... >> >> Daniel Joyce >> >> daniel.a.joyce@worldnet.att.net >> >> > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 13:58:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA09915; Thu, 18 May 2000 13:57:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 13:57:31 -0700 Message-ID: <001801bfc106$cb50d4e0$7fd666ce@default> From: "Chris O'Barr" To: Subject: Re: EMF Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 16:22:30 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"475fA.0.cQ2.wa59v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15194 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Wow, fractals are amazing. And I thought permanent magnets did ware out? -----Original Message----- From: Mike Johnston To: Michael S. Johnston Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 11:22 PM Subject: EMF >Hi, > Maybe someone knows about this. Does quantum physics deal with the >fact that everything is an energy field? For example you have a >universal field then a galactic field then a solar system field then a >planetary field then your field then a field for each atom in you. How >can you accurately describe even an atomic field without taking into >account all of the other ones that affect it? In my electrodynamics book >I can't find where these external fields are taken into account except >maybe as gravity. > For that matter if you look at it this way then objects are only >concentrated expressions of the larger field. This would explain why >permanent magnets never wear out. It also makes for a better >understanding of gravity. After all a field of an object inside the >larger planetary field might indeed have a hard time leaving. Just like >the parts of your body have a hard time just taking off on their own. > Anybody know about this? >MJ > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 13:58:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA09653; Thu, 18 May 2000 13:57:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 13:57:23 -0700 Message-ID: <001d01bfc107$2bbb72e0$7fd666ce@default> From: "Chris O'Barr" To: Subject: Re: Electrolysis Boost Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 16:25:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"a3Q7r1.0.bM2.ma59v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15192 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm not saying you were attempting to propose a free energy device (you clearly weren't), but this would use chemical energy, wouldn't it? -----Original Message----- From: Mike Johnston To: Michael S. Johnston Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 11:32 PM Subject: Electrolysis Boost >Hi, > Has anyone ever tried electrolyzing water then running the seam >through a boiler/turbine setup to extract the energy and then running >the steam over carbon (water gas H2 and CO) then running that over Iron >(releases H2 and the water gas reverses the reaction by turning the >resulting FeO3 back to Fe by turning the Co into CO2)? If they did then >you could run the resulting H2 back through the turbine and lessen the >amount that has to be produced by the electrolyzer. >Just a thought. >MJ > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 17:43:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA05859; Thu, 18 May 2000 17:42:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 17:42:29 -0700 Message-ID: <007801bfc127$22fdb1c0$3e5dadd1@default> From: "Jim Shaffer, Jr." To: References: <20000516003916.13066.qmail@web4402.mail.yahoo.com> <0b4501bfbed3$062f4000$259780d8@n8o9m1> <042901bfbef4$b9c42380$1c5dadd1@default> <3920e013.124918262@mail.midiowa.net> <008501bfbf89$fb80a4c0$145dadd1@default> <39231a4f.75491390@mail.midiowa .net> Subject: Re: FNG: Re: Re: 83 Years Ago Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 20:13:50 -0400 Organization: Unconventional Conventionalists MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"Ze35S2.0.MR1.pt89v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15196 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > The term "microwaves" are normally used to describe electro-magnetic > fields. The magnetic field cannot be separated from the electric > field *without some kind of field cancellation* of either the magnetic > or electric field. There can be scalar electric "waves," but I'm not > sure the same is true of magnetic waves. They'd be static magnets, I > think. The magnetic potential is a vector, not a scalar, but I don't know whether it's equivalent to a static magnet. It may be, except it can't be shielded. -- "Alan Turing predicted that the idea of machines thinking would be routine by the end of the century. The very second that time ran out for his prediction was the second that computers were set to demonstrate their complete stupidity because they couldn't add up dates." --Stephen Grand From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 17:43:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA05837; Thu, 18 May 2000 17:42:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 17:42:27 -0700 Message-ID: <007701bfc127$215a13e0$3e5dadd1@default> From: "Jim Shaffer, Jr." To: References: <000801bfbf79$ca9d07a0$15b422cf@a9o0z0> Subject: Re: 83 Years Ago Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 20:11:08 -0400 Organization: Unconventional Conventionalists MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"y1ZjJ3.0.4R1.ot89v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15195 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > The patent most likely is 5,982,276 and it is pretty weird. Looks like > someone collected whole bunch of words from a tech dictionary, mixed them > thoroughly and sent them to USPTO :-) That's the one. -- "Alan Turing predicted that the idea of machines thinking would be routine by the end of the century. The very second that time ran out for his prediction was the second that computers were set to demonstrate their complete stupidity because they couldn't add up dates." --Stephen Grand From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 17:59:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA12238; Thu, 18 May 2000 17:59:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 17:59:01 -0700 Sender: crusoe@eskimo.com Message-ID: <39243F7B.CBEF3B2E@worldnet.att.net> Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 14:07:39 -0500 From: Daniel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14-15mdk i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: EMF References: <39236133.B82D6358@csrlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Eh-2D2.0.4_2.J799v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15197 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > For that matter if you look at it this way then objects are only > concentrated expressions of the larger field. This would explain why > permanent magnets never wear out. It also makes for a better > understanding of gravity. After all a field of an object inside the > larger planetary field might indeed have a hard time leaving. Just like > the parts of your body have a hard time just taking off on their own. > Anybody know about this? > MJ The last point is actually an explanation of inertia as being do to trying to shift a mass inside the background 'gravity' field caused by all bodies in the universe. It's called mach's principle. Right now a lot of tests are being done to see if inertia is caused by Mach's Principle ( which is just a theory ) or do to other things, like quantum field effects involving exclusion of certain 'vibratory' modes of the vaccum between 2 objects.... ( casmir force style effects ). Daniel Joyce From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 18:02:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA13963; Thu, 18 May 2000 18:01:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 18:01:40 -0700 Sender: crusoe@eskimo.com Message-ID: <3924401A.DA9309DA@worldnet.att.net> Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 14:10:18 -0500 From: Daniel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14-15mdk i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Source for Platinum for catalyst References: <392361AA.740033E7@csrlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"8PdTO2.0.xP3.p999v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15198 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Johnston wrote: > > Hi All, > Had a thought today..., stop me if you've heard this already.... > For those who are interested in separating water, we all know that an > inert metal, such as platinum, is the best catalyst right? Yes. Kinda > pricey though isn't it? Well I just realized that you can get it in a > junkyard.Catalytic converters from automobiles are filled with little > balls of platinum/palladium. I guess a new one would be better but even > there you aren't paying nearly what you would for a bar of platinum. > MJ Actually, it doesn't catalyze the reaction, it's just inert, so it's very efficient. If Platinum was a catalyst, it'd be a heck of a lot easier to seperate water. Just drap the Pt in and watch it fizz! ;) Anyways, catalytic converters in autos contain only minute amounts of pt suspended in a ceramic matrix, so it's rather meager source of Pt. Daniel From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 20:27:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA01556; Thu, 18 May 2000 20:26:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 20:26:23 -0700 Message-ID: <3924B38C.C0CA3670@harti.com> Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 05:22:52 +0200 From: Stefan Hartmann Organization: Hartmann Multimedia Service X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [de]C-CCK-MCD QXW03200 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "jlnlabs@egroups.com" , "ou-builders@egroups.com" , Free Energy , Newman-L Mailing List Subject: Watercar.asf movie, better download before play ! X-Priority: 1 (Highest) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"j_dvl1.0.BO.UHB9v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15199 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, I wanted to add: It is better to download the movie first before playing it, cause the datarate is about 30 Kbytes/sec and this will only play smooth in streaming mode, if you have a DSL or cabelmodem connection to the Internet ! So better click with the right mouse button onto the link and klick "Save as" and store it to your harddisk, before you play it. The movie is here: http://mars.spaceports.com/~over/movies/ Enjoy ! -- Best regards, Stefan Hartmann. -- Hartmann Multimedia Service, Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498 email: harti@harti.com info@ccard.net http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB ! From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 21:16:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA17582; Thu, 18 May 2000 21:15:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 21:15:41 -0700 Message-ID: <3924B060.1445CB12@harti.com> Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 05:09:20 +0200 From: Stefan Hartmann Organization: Hartmann Multimedia Service X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [de]C-CCK-MCD QXW03200 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "jlnlabs@egroups.com" , "ou-builders@egroups.com" , Free Energy , Newman-L Mailing List Subject: Water powered car movie now online ! X-Priority: 1 (Highest) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"1KSQR3.0.OI4.h_B9v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15200 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, now after building up my new VideoPC I have finally succeeded to install all the required software to do again a few movies. The first one is now the famous Watercar from inventor Daniel Dingle from the Philipines. The movie is here: http://mars.spaceports.com/~over/movies/ It is about 4.3 Mbytes big and has a screen size of 320x240 and runs with 25 frames/sec already very good on a Pentium1 120 Mhz machine in double size mode 640x480 (ALT + 3) or in FullScreen mode ( press: ALT + ENTER). You need to have installed the new Mediaplayer 6.4 from Microsoft, which you can get for free at: http://www.microsoft.com/windowsmedia There is also a version for MAC users there. Now to the invention: The inventor uses an old car battery, which he pulses via high voltage and low current, so it generates the H2 and O2 gas which he feeds into his motor. 4 to 5 liters of water are enough for about 500 Kilometers range of the car ! It is really amazing ! I hope it will get now much more known and all our cars will be soon converted to water powered. Enjoy ! -- Best regards, Stefan Hartmann. -- Hartmann Multimedia Service, Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498 email: harti@harti.com info@ccard.net http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB ! From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 23:38:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA25775; Thu, 18 May 2000 23:38:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 23:38:01 -0700 From: HLafonte@aol.com Message-ID: <7e.5157c71.26563a01@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 02:32:33 EDT Subject: My letter, why Newman got closest so far To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, energy21@listbot.com, jlnlabs@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_7e.5157c71.26563a01_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 102 Resent-Message-ID: <"h_BGP.0.UI6.45E9v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15201 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_7e.5157c71.26563a01_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you do not have Joe Newman's book THE ENERGY MACHINE OF JOSEPH NEWMAN, this may be a little hard to follow. 1.I believe that Joe's theory of operation of his devices, if they are right or wrong, working or not, have come closer to true overunity operation that any device anyone has yet to build. I don't believe anyone has built a true overunity device to this day, but once again I believe Joe got the closest. 2. Some of Joe's theories I don't agree with, others I think show genius. I believe he may have been very close to discovering overunity and made a lot of people uneasy. His personality and thoughts on religion, life, etc., are of no concern with me. I am looking only at his work. I believe his ideas are very valuable tools that can be used to discover true overunity. 3. Joe's coils had to deal with two things, resistance, and induction. Induction has an inductive time constant made up of five separate phases as all induction coils have. I could be wrong but I don't ever remember Joe talking about inductive time constants. This was a mistake to overlook this important behavior of coils. 4. Joe talked of wire length and breaking the circuit before the current pulse got to the end of the wire. He never mentioned that the pulse flows in both directions when the circuit is closed. Charges flow up the wires from both positive and negative terminals when the circuit is closed and they "meet" at half the wire length. The current pulse and current flow leaving the negative terminal does not happen and just let the wire on the positive terminal sit there with nothing going on in it. A backward progression of ions starts from the positive terminal to meet with the pulse speeding at near light speed in the other wire. Joe never mentioned this. I wonder if he was aware of it? If he was not, then the timing for his devices would be off by 50%. 5. Joe used a permanent magnet for his rotor. I think he should have used an electromagnet and pulsed it the same as the fixed coil. Joe said he didn't use iron cores because they wasted energy due to hysteresis loss. Did Joe not know of the ferrites found in nature that have near zero magnetic memory and hysteresis loss? 6. Joe's large coils, close to four feet high and four feet in diameter exhibited some very amazing things and I think Joe should never have left these large machines and should have build them even bigger. The rotor on this large motor had a weight of 600 pounds and a 200 rpm rotation could be maintained with a 1 & 1/2 watt input. I want to see someone build a DC motor with a 600 pound rotor and use 1 & 1/2 watts to keep it rotating at 200 rpm. Do it yourself and then I will listen to your thoughts on it's not being worth looking into. 7. I believe Joe is an intuitive genius but may lack the engineering skills to get his idea to overunity operation. I think Joe truly believes in his theory and that his machines are overunity. How hard he has worked these many years on his ideas is hard for me to believe. 8. What I would like to see is the building of two coils of VERY large size. Each coil around 5 feet in diameter by 4 feet high with iron cores that could be removed. The coils would be wired series and be in repulsion. This would reduce the induction of each coil to a degree. The wire length would be very long and timing the pulses to last only till the charges meet at half wire length (where the two coils connect) should not be very hard to do. If large diameter wire was used so low voltage could be used to produce large magnetic fields between these coils, I wonder just what could be discovered from experimenting. Rotors of electromagnet type could be tested with these coils also. Tests of this type with huge coils has never been done to my knowledge. I wish I had the funds to setup these coils. If I did anyone from anywhere in the country or world for that matter could come and run their own tests. The copper wire would amount to about 4 tons. I can't help but believe that tests on coils this large would show more energy out that energy in. See attached drawing. The zero switch time is just a text book example. Could these coils repel after a short pulse that is switched to cause an increasing inductive time constant? What could be found testing different pulse duration's with and without a switchable iron core rotor? Could a few flashlight batteries move these two ton each, coils apart, even just a little? Could a 4 0r 5 hundred pound rotor be made to turn and do work? I would love to see. 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Iz7fJR7h3j3hka3iDs7ixO3iJ37fnizTiYzVtaLVZ4PjL63jd2OkQH5w16kSKoqYQ37k2FLk d4nkTH4lSm6XTR7lQ/LkZinlVt4iVF6WV77lF5LlUMnlYB4gXv6UYV7mZn7maJ7mar7mbN7m bv7mcB7ncj7ndF7ndn7neJ7ner7nB3ze51QREAAAOw== --part1_7e.5157c71.26563a01_boundary-- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 01:05:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA14065; Fri, 19 May 2000 01:04:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 01:04:32 -0700 Message-ID: <002701bfc168$e50a99e0$0301a8c0@m> From: "Michael Randall" To: References: <39130AA1.88D609E5@csrlink.net> Subject: Re: Address for the water car institute's website! Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 01:04:44 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"NDp963.0.ZR3.FMF9v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15202 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Any reply from the institute director from your email request? Regards, Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Johnston To: Michael S. Johnston Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 10:53 AM Subject: Address for the water car institute's website! >>I emailed the institute's director for > info on Dr. Luis and the water car. > I'll let you know the results. > MJ > P.S.: If this turns out to be real I claim dibs on the story. I'm a > writer and I gotta make a living somehow. > > > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 02:02:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA24263; Fri, 19 May 2000 02:02:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 02:02:07 -0700 Message-ID: <002301bfc171$36557a60$ce9da0d1@pavilion> From: "Norm Silliman" To: Subject: Re: FNG: Re: Re: 83 Years Ago Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 02:04:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"eUMFT.0.zw5.FCG9v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15203 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: Robin van Spaandonk Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 7:06 PM >On Wed, 17 May 2000 17:27:36 -0700, Norm Silliman wrote: >[snip] >>How about any electric current using Tin (Sn) or Mercury (Hg) conductors. >Hg might make a slight difference, because the Hg is fluid, and might flow >slightly in the opposite direction to the electron current, resulting in a >minor current of positive ions. However the difference in mass between an >electron and a mercury atom is huge, so I would expect any effect to be >almost immeasurably small. >[prepare for incoming torpedoes] ;). That and they are both diamagnetic. There maybe other reasons also. Norm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 05:22:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA03443; Fri, 19 May 2000 05:21:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 05:21:32 -0700 Message-ID: <392530FA.B3A1C3F3@harti.com> Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 14:18:02 +0200 From: Stefan Hartmann Organization: Hartmann Multimedia Service X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [de]C-CCK-MCD QXW03200 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Free Energy , Newman-L Mailing List , "ou-builders@egroups.com" , "jlnlabs@egroups.com" Subject: Address of Watercar inventor Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"IGTIn1.0.br.B7J9v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15204 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The address from Dingle´s Manager: *** > Dr.Ernesto S. Luis *** > *** > Industrial Technology Development Institute *** > *** > Development Science *** > *** > Bicutan Science Complex *** > *** > Taguig, Metro Manila, Philippines *** > *** > Fax 00632 - 837 3167 / 837 0032 *** > *** > Tel. - 837 2071 From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 15:57:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA26163; Fri, 19 May 2000 15:55:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 15:55:49 -0700 Message-ID: <3924FFB3.FE07935F@astra.ukf.net> Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 09:47:47 +0100 From: Gavin Dingley X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win98; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: EMF References: <39236133.B82D6358@csrlink.net> <39243F7B.CBEF3B2E@worldnet.att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Ly4tZ.0.aO6.rPS9v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15205 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Daniel, so inertia may be due to virtual gravitons manifesting from the ZPE? Regards, Gavin Daniel wrote: > > > For that matter if you look at it this way then objects are only > > concentrated expressions of the larger field. This would explain why > > permanent magnets never wear out. It also makes for a better > > understanding of gravity. After all a field of an object inside the > > larger planetary field might indeed have a hard time leaving. Just like > > the parts of your body have a hard time just taking off on their own. > > Anybody know about this? > > MJ > > The last point is actually an explanation of inertia as being do to > trying to shift a mass inside the background 'gravity' field caused by > all bodies in the universe. It's called mach's principle. Right now a > lot of tests are being done to see if inertia is caused by Mach's > Principle ( which is just a theory ) or do to other things, like quantum > field effects involving exclusion of certain 'vibratory' modes of the > vaccum between 2 objects.... ( casmir force style effects ). > > Daniel Joyce From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 18:41:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA18042; Fri, 19 May 2000 18:40:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 18:40:21 -0700 Message-ID: <20000519173351.1633.qmail@web4405.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 10:33:51 -0700 (PDT) From: harvey norris Subject: Re: 83 Years Ago To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"5FZ_S2.0.hP4.4qU9v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15206 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- "Jim Shaffer, Jr." wrote: > > The term "microwaves" are normally used to > describe electro-magnetic > > fields. The magnetic field cannot be separated > from the electric > > field *without some kind of field cancellation* of > either the magnetic > > or electric field. There can be scalar electric > "waves," but I'm not > > sure the same is true of magnetic waves. They'd > be static magnets, I > > think. The magnetic aspect of a radio wave is created by the movement of charge created by the oscillation imposed by its source generator on the source transmitting antenna. This small amperage movement up and down the antenna creates circles of b around the antenna. A changing magnetic field induces an electric field at right angles to its own, this is said to happen simultaneously, but I am dubious. (In my thinking the full electric field should not occur until the magnetic field has collapsed, making the electric field 90 degrees out of phase in time with the magnetic as occurs in nature) Howerver this does not occur in resonance where these quantities are either in phase as in series resonance, or 180 out of phase as in parallel resonance. This is only a trifling argument however, so it might be understood that since the transmitting antenna itself is in resonance, the simultaneous E and B fields conjectured to exist in fact do so. There is a small proof of this I have cogitated. The lorentz force on a charged particle (IN MOVEMENT ONLY) in the presence of simultaneous E and B fields will respond as E X B in three dimensional vector language, so that if E and B are orthogonal as in this instance, the resultant vector will be at right angles to both the causitive fields, which are themselves at right angles. This is probably the basic principle behind the deflection of an oscilloscope sweep trace to observe signals in an inductor, whether they are induced by a magnetic field, or electric, and as future experimentation unfolds, both of these effects together simultaneously will be explored from a large 60 hz resonator system I have built. It is built on a binary or two fold principle, hence I have named it a binary resonant system. Now when we obtain this lorentz force reaction between an electric field and a magnetic this law is supposed to apply when these fields are of indepedent origin. In the radio case those fields are not of independent origin but actually are obtained as their own self interaction. But the Lorentz force law still applies and the reaction is given a new name; the Poynting vector. This vector is in the direction of the waves propagation outwards in space radially away from the antenna. Thus E and B can simultaneously change direction, and the resultant vector product is still in the same direction, since a negative times a negative is still a positive. If E and the pondered instantaneous reaction B where in fact not instantaneous, but 90 degrees out of phase as speculated, the the resultant Ponting vector would then reverse direction evertime one of the E and B qunatities reversed polarity. Then we would be led with the impossible scenario of the wave propagating back on itself. So in this cogitive exercise we can understand why E and B must be simultaneous interactions on a radio antennna. However it is very useful now to entertain the thought that these waves could be created differently. Consider the term "non hertzian waves" bandied about by Tesla in his days. I have read that simply means "non radiating propagation". This is similar to transmission line propagation, Zenneck surface waves,(I have no idea what these are, hoping for a comment from list), and cavity resonator modes(a microwave oven?) In any case I am sure I have succeeded in producing these longitudinal waves of some sort. The longitudinal wave is tied to the scalar wave in many respects. One of these are pictured on the homepage at http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/LaGrangeLn/teslafy/Homepage.html A high voltage discharge to water is shown on the next page as a bottom link. Scope forms from an inductor showing 500,000 hz from both electric and magnetic field effects are shown on the next page. The correct and incorrect orientation for these signals recieved as lateral and verticle orientations are also pictured as scope forms. http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/LaGrangeLn/teslafy/Uncohered.html Sincerely HDN ===== Binary Resonant Systemhttp://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb124201 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 22:55:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA18455; Fri, 19 May 2000 22:54:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 22:54:28 -0700 Sender: crusoe@eskimo.com Message-ID: <3925D656.627B05B0@worldnet.att.net> Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 19:03:34 -0500 From: Daniel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14-15mdk i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: EMF References: <39236133.B82D6358@csrlink.net> <39243F7B.CBEF3B2E@worldnet.att.net> <3924FFB3.FE07935F@astra.ukf.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"QlwaM.0.EW4.JYY9v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15207 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gavin Dingley wrote: > > Hi Daniel, > so inertia may be due to virtual gravitons manifesting from the ZPE? > > Regards, > > Gavin > No, virtual particles and fields. In this theory, there are no gravitons. It's a long range version of the Casmir forces.... IE, put two plates REAL close together. You'll notice that between the 2 plates, only certain harmonics ( frequencies ) of vac fluct can exist. Outside the plates, all possible particles/harmonics can arise in the ZPE. So we have artifically limited the 'energy' between the plates, a ZPE partial vaccuum if you will. Thus the 2 plates will suck together, from the outside ZPE pressure. This is called the casmir force. Now what I mean by pressure, is not a physical entity ( else it would be Aether ), but the sum of all probabalities of the spontaneous expression of particles/waves/forces by the zpe. So really, this is kind of a potential of potentials... ;) Bizzare. We are after all talking about virtual particles. Now imagine if we have 2 planets far apart. Given that they are round, and so far apart, they only exclude a minute fraction of the possible potential particles/harmonics/whatever of the ZPE that can exist in the space between them, so the resulting casmir force is excedingly small. But if you note, gravity is also excedingly weak. So, maybe, just maybe, gravity is just a long range expression of the casmir force... NB NASA plans on using this casmir force to try and extract energy from the vaccuum! Yep! They are actually gonna try and build a so-called free-energy device.... Use 2 small gaps with movable walls, one smaller than the other. The smaller gap since it excludes more virtual particles/forces/etc is of lower 'energy' as it were. Couple the gaps with some microelectronic springs, a small motor generator, and charge each gap up like a capacitor. Given a certain arrangement of gears, springs, etc, the gaps should oscillate slightly, and the wider gap should have wall oscillations of lower frequency than the smaller gap. So it should be possible to 'feed' the oscillations from one gap to the other, and do a bit of work in the process ( say turn a small generator ). Now, mind you, they have no clue if this will work, or what exactly is required. But the casmir force does exist. Each of these lil generators would be quite tiny, but you could print thousands - millions of them on a silicon wafer. And of course, then stack the wafers up. Maybe it won't be all that powerful, at least until we know how to tune it. But it will be free energy.... Daniel From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 20 00:04:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA07023; Sat, 20 May 2000 00:03:30 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 00:03:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <005d01bfc229$3b421f20$96d2989e@dave> From: "David Callaghan" To: References: <7e.5157c71.26563a01@aol.com> Subject: Re: My letter, why Newman got closest so far Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 08:01:11 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"4bbSs3.0.Wj1.zYZ9v"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15208 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Butch To keep a rotor turning at a constant RPM you need only supply energy to overcome friction, no matter what the rotor weight. Imagine you have two bearing mounted rotors which you have to accelerate by hand to 200 rpm, stop and repeat continously via a 50mm shaft. One rotor weighs 300kg and has a 200mm diameter, the other weighs 30kg and has a 20 metre diameter. Which one would you choose? Best regards David Callaghan ----- Original Message ----- From: > I want to see someone build a DC motor > with a 600 pound rotor and use 1 & 1/2 watts to keep it rotating at 200 rpm. > Do it yourself and then I will listen to your thoughts on it's not being > worth looking into. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 20 08:23:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA03172; Sat, 20 May 2000 08:22:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 08:22:32 -0700 From: HLafonte@aol.com Message-ID: <5a.56dba3a.26580787@aol.com> Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 11:21:43 EDT Subject: Re: My letter, why Newman got closest so far To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 102 Resent-Message-ID: <"WJJs4.0.Qn.usg9v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15209 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 5/20/00 2:04:00 AM Central Daylight Time, DCallaghan@CallaghanSystems.Demon.Co.Uk writes: > To keep a rotor turning at a constant RPM you need > only supply energy to overcome friction, no matter > what the rotor weight. > > Imagine you have two bearing mounted rotors which > you have to accelerate by hand to 200 rpm, stop > and repeat continously via a 50mm shaft. One > rotor weighs 300kg and has a 200mm diameter, the > other weighs 30kg and has a 20 metre diameter. > > Which one would you choose? > > Best regards > David Callaghan > David, You forgot aerodynamic drag. Butch From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 20 09:42:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA26535; Sat, 20 May 2000 09:41:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 09:41:57 -0700 Message-ID: <3926C0D6.A735EB00@csrlink.net> Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 12:44:06 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electrolysis Boost References: <392362CD.5BF8B754@csrlink.net> <5uu6isgp03rkbp70e5nt819cd1ethh6cns@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"c1Nsq2.0.UU6.L1i9v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15210 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Robin, I doubt that you could get 100% conversion of the steam exiting the boiler. If you didn't then you would have to make more H2 somehow. So the electrolyzer is still needed. I did some figuring this week and will post the results today. It gets interesting. MJ Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > On Wed, 17 May 2000 23:26:06 -0400, Mike Johnston wrote: > > >Hi, > > Has anyone ever tried electrolyzing water then running the seam > >through a boiler/turbine setup to extract the energy and then running > >the steam over carbon (water gas H2 and CO) then running that over Iron > >(releases H2 and the water gas reverses the reaction by turning the > >resulting FeO3 back to Fe by turning the Co into CO2)? If they did then > >you could run the resulting H2 back through the turbine and lessen the > >amount that has to be produced by the electrolyzer. > >Just a thought. > >MJ > Or, you could just leave the electrolyzer out altogether.... > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 20 10:19:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA04162; Sat, 20 May 2000 10:18:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 10:18:37 -0700 Message-ID: <3926C893.E3945CFC@csrlink.net> Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 13:17:08 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: energy21 , "freenrg-l@eskimo.com" , jlnlabs , "nuenergy2@listbot.com" Subject: [Fwd: Los Alamos fire imaged by NASA satellite] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------F26D06C738BCEC18FB3CBFD7" Resent-Message-ID: <"A_ldM2.0.t01.iZi9v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15211 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F26D06C738BCEC18FB3CBFD7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------F26D06C738BCEC18FB3CBFD7 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from www-onlab.jpl.nasa.gov (www-onlab.jpl.nasa.gov [137.78.99.25]) by uplink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA24865; Fri, 19 May 2000 20:20:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (jplnews@localhost) by www-onlab.jpl.nasa.gov (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA27673; Fri, 19 May 2000 17:18:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 17:18:33 -0700 (PDT) From: JPLNews@jpl.nasa.gov Subject: Los Alamos fire imaged by NASA satellite Reply-To: news-owner@www.jpl.nasa.gov To: undisclosed-recipients:; Message-ID: X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 MEDIA RELATIONS OFFICE JET PROPULSION LABORATORY CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION PASADENA, CALIF. 91109. TELEPHONE (818) 354-5011 http://www.jpl.nasa.gov IMAGE ADVISORY May 19, 2000 LOS ALAMOS FIRE IMAGED BY NASA SATELLITE The fire that has raged out of control this month near Los Alamos, New Mexico, was captured in a series of images by the Multi-angle Imaging Spectro-Radiometer (MISR) on NASA's Terra satellite. The images are available at http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/pictures/misr These true-color images covering north-central New Mexico capture the bluish-white smoke plume of the Los Alamos fire, just west of the Rio Grande river. The middle image is a downward-looking or "nadir" view taken by MISR. As the satellite flew from north to south, the instrument viewed the scene from nine different angles. The top image was taken by the MISR camera looking 60 degrees forward along its orbit, whereas the bottom image looks 60 degrees aft. The fire plume stands out more dramatically in the steep-angle views. Its color and brightness also change with angle. By comparison, a thin, white water cloud appears in the upper right portion of the scene, and is most easily detected in the top image. MISR scientists use these angle-to-angle differences to monitor particulate pollution and to identify different types of haze. Such observations allow scientists to study how airborne particles interact with sunlight, a measure of their impact on Earth's climate system. The images are about 400 km (250 miles) wide. The spatial resolution of the nadir image is 275 meters (300 yards); resolution is 1.1 kilometers (1,200 yards) for the off-nadir images. North is toward the top. MISR is managed by the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, a division of the California Institute of Technology, for NASA' s Office of Earth Science, Washington, D.C. The Terra satellite is managed by NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md. ##### Photo credit: NASA/GSFC/JPL, MISR Science Team. --------------------------------------------------------------- You are subscribed to JPL's news mailing list. To unsubscribe, please send an e-mail to JPLNews@jpl.nasa.gov and in the body of the message include the following line. unsubscribe news Please do not reply to this e-mail. For help, send a message to listmaster@www.jpl.nasa.gov. --------------F26D06C738BCEC18FB3CBFD7-- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 20 10:23:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA06604; Sat, 20 May 2000 10:22:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 10:22:39 -0700 Message-ID: <3926C988.193EF3A9@csrlink.net> Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 13:21:12 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael S. Johnston" Subject: [Fwd: AW: Water powered car movie now online !] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------EC8F68B5463612435CB4FCF2" Resent-Message-ID: <"ZCw2V3.0._c1.Udi9v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15212 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------EC8F68B5463612435CB4FCF2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------EC8F68B5463612435CB4FCF2 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from msheas02.msh.de (msheas02.msh.de [212.4.227.2]) by uplink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA27775 for ; Fri, 19 May 2000 17:45:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rolfkepp (a03-042.dialin.msh.de [212.4.224.170]) by msheas02.msh.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA20406; Fri, 19 May 2000 23:43:15 +0200 Reply-To: From: "Gute Ideen von Rolf Keppler" To: Subject: AW: Water powered car movie now online ! Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 23:45:52 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 I hope you enjoy this message: *** Hi All, *** now after building up my new *** VideoPC I have finally succeeded *** to install all the required software to do *** again a few movies. *** The first one is now the famous *** Watercar from inventor Daniel Dingle *** from the Philipines. *** *** The movie is here: *** http://mars.spaceports.com/~over/movies/ *** *** It is about 4.3 Mbytes big and has a screen *** size of 320x240 and runs with 25 frames/sec *** already very good on a Pentium1 120 Mhz machine *** in double size mode 640x480 (ALT + 3) or in *** FullScreen mode ( press: ALT + ENTER). *** *** You need to have installed the new Mediaplayer 6.4 *** from Microsoft, which you can get for free *** at: *** http://www.microsoft.com/windowsmedia *** There is also a version for MAC users there. *** *** Now to the invention: *** The inventor uses an old car battery, which he pulses *** via high voltage and low current, so it generates the H2 and *** O2 gas which he feeds into his motor. *** 4 to 5 liters of water are enough for about 500 Kilometers *** range of the car ! *** It is really amazing ! *** *** I hope it will get now much more known and all our cars will be soon *** converted to water powered. *** *** Enjoy ! *** *** -- *** *** Best regards, Stefan Hartmann. *** -- *** Hartmann Multimedia Service, *** Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany *** Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498 *** email: harti@harti.com info@ccard.net *** http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB ! Mit freundlichen Grüßen von Rolf Keppler Spreuergasse 24 D-70372 Stuttgart Tel.: 0711 55 93 87 Fax: 089 2443 54 701 keppler@n.zgs.de http://www.s-line.de/homepages/keppler --------------EC8F68B5463612435CB4FCF2-- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 20 10:28:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA08669; Sat, 20 May 2000 10:27:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 10:27:59 -0700 Message-ID: <3926CBAF.90CF8EC9@csrlink.net> Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 13:30:23 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Address for the water car institute's website! References: <39130AA1.88D609E5@csrlink.net> <002701bfc168$e50a99e0$0301a8c0@m> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"6HvQB.0.K72.Uii9v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15213 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Oh hi, Actually it was a bad e-mail. It was the one on the site though so I figured I'd give it some time and see if they correct it. MJ Michael Randall wrote: > Any reply from the institute director from your email request? > Regards, Michael > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mike Johnston > To: Michael S. Johnston > Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 10:53 AM > Subject: Address for the water car institute's website! > > >>I emailed the institute's director for > > info on Dr. Luis and the water car. > > I'll let you know the results. > > MJ > > P.S.: If this turns out to be real I claim dibs on the story. I'm a > > writer and I gotta make a living somehow. > > > > > > > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 20 10:34:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA11307; Sat, 20 May 2000 10:34:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 10:34:38 -0700 Message-ID: <3926CD3C.92B96349@csrlink.net> Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 13:37:01 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Source for Platinum for catalyst References: <392361AA.740033E7@csrlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"JBJt.0.Tm2.joi9v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15214 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Robin, Why? You mean SOMEONE ELSE already figured this out ? MJ Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > On Wed, 17 May 2000 23:21:15 -0400, Mike Johnston wrote: > [snip] > >pricey though isn't it? Well I just realized that you can get it in a > >junkyard.Catalytic converters from automobiles are filled with little > [snip] > Let us know if you actually find any. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 20 12:31:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA17179; Sat, 20 May 2000 12:31:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 12:31:30 -0700 Message-ID: <3926E7B5.1BAB0668@csrlink.net> Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 15:29:59 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael S. Johnston" Subject: The next Evolvation (pokemon) of the H2O power source Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"UgONY1.0.IC4.IWk9v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15215 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, Remember my little musing from last week about catalyzing the steam from the turbine? Well I thought about it for a second or two and here are the results: (Diagram will be posted on my email list only. Others who want one can get it there H2OPower@listbot.com or email me and I'll send you one direct) I started this little project with the object of finding a way to make water into a viable fuel source. I want it to be that NOW, not 5 or 10 years in the future. I thought it would be fun. It has. It has taken me 6 months or so (an hour or two a week) but I think I'm getting close. If you have followed it you will already know about the stuff I refer to here. If not then the information is available on my email list (address above). Let's consider this as it is now piece by piece. 1) Electrolysis Cell(s): The ideal cell will have Platinum electrodes (inert metal) and use H2SO4 as the electrolyte or something else equally efficient. It will have multiple cells wired in a continuous circuit. The number of cells being figured based on the voltage that is being used in the system. Five cells is the number for 12v electricity at any amperage. 90% efficiency in turning the electrical charge into chemical energy should be possible (actually let's just say 90% of the electricity you put in one end will not be coming out the other). Notice there is a loss here. From the cell the gasses produced will be delivered to our boiler. If you want to put the Water Tower thing in at this point fine. If not that's fine too. That device would work equally well on any steam electric plant such as coal fired or nuclear.... 2) Boiler: A design such as mine will work nicely. Briefly; fuel (H2 gas with O2 oxidizer) is burned inside the boiler in such a manner that total combustion occurs. No outside air needs to be inducted. Pressure is allowed to build to whatever the desired level is to turn the turbine that is being used and then released to said turbine (under pressure) at the same rate that it is being created thus keeping the boiler in equilibrium. Our initial investment of energy here is the gasses that are burned until the desired pressure is reached. Efficiency should be over 90% here. We are releasing chemical energy as heat here. We add pressure to it for free (aside from initial gas investment). Another loss (sigh). 3)Turbine: Since the turbine requires pressure to run the heat losses that are encountered here should still allow us steam at 1100 degrees Celsius to exit the turbine (H2 and O2 burned together in a torch yield 2800 degrees Celsius). Therefore this steam should be able to provide enough heat to cause the catalytic separation of H2 from the steam (in combination with waste heat from the "skin" of the boiler if needed). Such separation of H2 from the steam would be accomplished by one or more of the following well known and accepted methods. a) By running said steam over carbon. C(s) + H2O(g)------------>H2(g) + CO(g) 1000 degrees b) By running said steam over iron. 4H2O(g) + 3Fe(s)------------->Fe3O4(s) + 4H2(g) 1100 degrees c) By running said steam over Platinum. This works with hydrocarbons to form H2 gas so it is just a suggestion. Also running H2 and O2 gasses over Platinum causes them to ignite, so why not? When you run water gas (the product of reaction a) over Fe3O4 you get Fe and CO2 and effectively reverse reaction b. If you run these reactions in line a then b you should end up with the products being H2(g), CO2(g) and some residual steam. It would be nice to have no residual steam but if you do it's not a problem at this point. The engineers can work out the details later. If anyone knows how to crack CO2 into C and O2 let me know (after all, plants do it). The catalytic recovery of H2 from from the turbine exhaust using the waste heat of the steam and or the boiler would take some of the load of fuel production off of the electrolysis unit. This will enable the unit to be powered down or run less without affecting the power output of the system. Or on the other hand, a larger turbine could be used and more energy produced with no additional energy input (beyond the initial level of the electrolysis unit). A converter should be able to run at 70% efficiency or better (automotive ones do). The H2 which is not recovered from the steam by catalysis would be recondensed and used to feed the electrolysis unit. The output of the whole system would look like the following projection. For this example I use pretty much standard output/loss figures. Any of these numbers could be modified by engineering the system better. The point it that building something like this should be possible NOW by using existing technologies and devices with perhaps slight modification. It's not true OU but it's getting close. 1) I assume an electrolysis unit capable of producing 2oz of H2 per minute. 2) A boiler/turbine setup such as the one I designed. 3) A catalytic converter using commonly accepted technology Electrolysis Unit Input from Catalysis Input to Turbine/ Output from Catalysis unit Output (per Minute) Unit (to boiler) (output from boiler) (70% Efficient) 1 min = 2oz + 0oz = 2oz -----------> 2oz x .7 = 1.4oz 2 min = 2oz + 1.4oz = 3.4oz----------> 3.4oz x .7 = 2.38oz 3 min = 2oz + 2.38oz = 4.38oz---------> 4.38oz x .7 = 3.07oz 4 min = 2oz + 3.07oz = 5.07oz---------> 5.07oz x .7 = 3.55oz 5 min = 2oz + 3.55oz = 5.55oz---------> 5.55oz x .7 = 3.88oz 6 min = 2oz + 3.88oz = 5.88oz---------> 5.88oz x .7 = 4.12oz 7min = 2oz + 4.12oz = 6.12oz---------> 6.12oz x .7 = 4.28oz 8min = 2oz + 4.28oz = 6.28oz---------> 6.28oz x .7 = 4.40oz As you can see, by catalyzing the waste steam from our turbine, we double the amount of available fuel in 3 minutes and triple the amount of available fuel in 7 minutes. This would indicate that we will now be able to produce MORE electricity than what is required to operate the system (in the form of electricity being supplied to the electrolysis unit). This is even WITH all the losses in the system. Thank You, MJ From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 20 15:21:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA01115; Sat, 20 May 2000 15:20:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 15:20:56 -0700 Message-ID: <39270EF3.1020EF42@harti.com> Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 00:17:23 +0200 From: Stefan Hartmann Organization: Hartmann Multimedia Service X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [de]C-CCK-MCD QXW03200 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "jlnlabs@egroups.com" , "ou-builders@egroups.com" , Free Energy , Newman-L Mailing List Subject: 2nd Water powered car movie now online ! X-Priority: 1 (Highest) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Q4TF7.0.IH.8_m9v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15216 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, now after a few hours of only crashing my Celeron 300A due to overclocking to 450 Mhz I have finally lowered the CPU frequency and now the 2nd movie of the watercar succeeded to encode finally. Damn PC hardware... It is a new tape I received today from Mr. Wolfgang Czapp, who visited Mr. Dingle, the inventor of the watercar at the beginning of this year. You can hear Mr. Czapp speaking with Mr. Dingle. Sometimes there were a few understanding problems, but I guess as this is all in english language you will get the sense out of Mr. Dingle´s words. The movie is here: http://mars.spaceports.com/~over/movies/ It is called waterc01.asf. It is better to use NetVampire or GetRight to download it to avoid broken downloads at this big file size. It is about 10.4 Mbytes big and has a screen size of 320x240 and runs with 25 frames/sec already very good on a Pentium1 120 Mhz machine in double size mode 640x480 (ALT + 3) or in FullScreen mode ( press: ALT + ENTER). You need to have installed the new Mediaplayer 6.4 from Microsoft, which you can get for free at: http://www.microsoft.com/windowsmedia There is also a version for MAC users there. Now to the invention: The inventor uses an old car battery, which he pulses via high voltage and low current, so it generates the H2 and O2 gas which he feeds into his motor. 4 to 5 liters of water are enough for about 500 Kilometers range of the car ! It is really amazing ! In this clip it can also be seen, that Dingle sucks some H2 gas out of the Battery electrolyser unit and then shows how it explodes in a small canon like plastic tube. So you can see, that the reator unit really produces electrolysis. A third movie is just encoding now and will be uploaded later this night. Stay tuned. I hope it will get now much more known and all our cars will be soon converted to water powered. Enjoy ! -- Best regards, Stefan Hartmann. -- Hartmann Multimedia Service, Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498 email: harti@harti.com info@ccard.net http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB ! From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 20 16:08:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA15645; Sat, 20 May 2000 16:08:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 16:08:09 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electrolysis Boost Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 09:07:21 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <392362CD.5BF8B754@csrlink.net> <5uu6isgp03rkbp70e5nt819cd1ethh6cns@4ax.com> <3926C0D6.A735EB00@csrlink.net> In-Reply-To: <3926C0D6.A735EB00@csrlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA15605 Resent-Message-ID: <"IUEn21.0.Kq3.Phn9v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15217 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 20 May 2000 12:44:06 -0400, Mike Johnston wrote: >Hi Robin, > I doubt that you could get 100% conversion of the steam exiting the >boiler. If you didn't then you would have to make more H2 somehow. So the >electrolyzer is still needed. I did some figuring this week and will post >the results today. It gets interesting. >MJ The watergas method is already a major means of producing hydrogen gas. No electrolysis is used. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 20 16:12:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA18091; Sat, 20 May 2000 16:12:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 16:12:23 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Source for Platinum for catalyst Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 09:11:37 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <0r6eisoimlav8epotiakpvle0o6bgq3ngf@4ax.com> References: <392361AA.740033E7@csrlink.net> <3926CD3C.92B96349@csrlink.net> In-Reply-To: <3926CD3C.92B96349@csrlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA18058 Resent-Message-ID: <"Se2Qz2.0.UQ4.Mln9v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15218 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 20 May 2000 13:37:01 -0400, Mike Johnston wrote: >Hi Robin, > Why? You mean SOMEONE ELSE already figured this out ? >MJ [snip] I think most catalytic converters are recycled, precisely because of the platinum content. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 20 16:22:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA21008; Sat, 20 May 2000 16:21:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 16:21:44 -0700 Message-ID: <39271E9D.8E5E07B3@csrlink.net> Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 19:24:14 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electrolysis Boost References: <392362CD.5BF8B754@csrlink.net> <5uu6isgp03rkbp70e5nt819cd1ethh6cns@4ax.com> <3926C0D6.A735EB00@csrlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Jev8e3.0.685.7un9v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15219 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: HI Robin, Yes, I know but as I understand it, it is hard to separate the resulting CO and H2. That means that, in a water based system, you would end up putting out Carbon Monoxide just like gasoline does. Of course it would be a much cheaper fuel source but not very environmentally friendly. Then again, if you wanted to add another step you could make some methyl alcohol from the CO and H2. CO(g) + 2H2(g)------------------>CH3OH(g) catalyst I was trying to keep the H2O system "pure" in the sense that you start with water and end up with water or H2 and O2 at any rate. If by chance I stumble onto something else I don't really care about that at this time. The H2 from H2O is what has my interest. MJ Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > The watergas method is already a major means of producing hydrogen gas. > No electrolysis is used. > [snip] > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 20 16:29:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA23182; Sat, 20 May 2000 16:28:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 16:28:47 -0700 Message-ID: <39272045.DE5D49D1@csrlink.net> Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 19:31:18 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Source for Platinum for catalyst References: <392361AA.740033E7@csrlink.net> <3926CD3C.92B96349@csrlink.net> <0r6eisoimlav8epotiakpvle0o6bgq3ngf@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3vZjQ1.0.5g5.k-n9v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15220 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Robin, I think I heard that too somewhere before but forgot it when I was writing that message. At any rate a new one would probably cost less than buying pure platinum (to experiment with). Do you remember when some people with one of the car manufacturers were trying to develop a catalytic converter that would convert the exhaust gasses back into gasoline? I read a brief piece on it a few years ago but had forgotten all about it until I started playing with this. They failed. I imagine it would be harder if you inducted air because of the various other gasses you would have to deal with. NOx for one. Although I just read a piece this past week about a company that has developed a device which virtually eliminates NOx from a diesel exhaust by injecting urea into the fuel line... Imagine that. I'm serious. Does that mean we should pee in our fuel tanks now? MJ Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > I think most catalytic converters are recycled, precisely because of the > platinum content. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 20 16:47:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA27786; Sat, 20 May 2000 16:46:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 16:46:53 -0700 Message-ID: <006001bfc2b6$106a46a0$b1fd6dcb@ihug.co.nz> From: "Stuart Rae" To: References: <7e.5157c71.26563a01@aol.com> Subject: Re: My letter, why Newman got closest so far Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 11:48:34 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"JHGIz3.0.0o6.jFo9v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15221 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Butch, You said : > > 1.I believe that Joe's theory of operation of his devices, if they > are right or wrong, working or not, have come closer to true > overunity operation that any device anyone has yet to build. > I don't believe anyone has built a true > overunity device to this day, but once again I believe Joe got > the closest. > Yes, but how about E. V. Gray's motor as another example? It appears to work on one of the same basic principles that Joe discovered. And that was why Gray used very long delay lines wound around the body of the motor. For example, part 37 in his patent number 3,890,548. Or to quote him directly:- "........The rectified unidirectional pulsating output of each of the diodes in converter 36 is passed through delay coils 23, 24, thus forming a harness 37 wound around the case of the engine, as hereinafter described, which is believed to provide a static floating flux field......" Personally, I think the "...static floating flux field..." part is a blind, but its magnetic field might also have doubled to assist the speed of his spark gap switching. > > 2. Some of Joe's theories I don't agree with, others I think show genius. I > believe he may have been very close to discovering overunity and made a lot > of people uneasy. His personality and thoughts on religion, life, etc., are > of no concern with me. > I am looking only at his work. I believe his ideas are very valuable tools > that can be used to discover true overunity. > Fair comment. > > 3. Joe's coils had to deal with two things, resistance, and induction. > Induction has an inductive time constant made up of five separate phases as > all induction coils have. > I could be wrong but I don't ever remember Joe talking about inductive time > constants. This was a mistake to overlook this important behavior of coils. > Yes, the inductive time constant is something that Joe doesn't seem to address directly, yet it could be one of the most important aspects when considering what really occurs when a long delay line is pulsed with very high voltage in this manner. But what are these "...five separate phases.." of inductive time constant that you talk of? It was my impression that an inductive time constant is the time it takes for an inductor's current to reach approximately 63% of its final value, and is defined as L/R seconds. After a period of about five time constants the inductor's current will be high enough to approximate its final value. Is that what you mean ? > > 4. Joe talked of wire length and breaking the circuit before the current > pulse got to the end of the wire. He never mentioned that the pulse flows in > both directions when the circuit is closed. Charges flow up the wires from > both positive and negative terminals when the circuit is closed and they > "meet" at half the wire length. The current pulse and current flow leaving > the negative terminal does not happen and just let the wire on the positive > terminal sit there with nothing going on in it. A backward progression of > ions starts from the positive terminal to meet with the pulse speeding at > near light speed in the other wire. Joe never mentioned this. I wonder if he > was aware of it? If he was not, then the timing for his devices would be off > by 50%. > Are you saying that the electrons and the ions move towards each other at the speed of light ? If you are, this is not quite correct. Even Joe would say that it was the "gyroscopic massergy" that moves down the wire at "the speed of light" . My understanding is that the communication of electrical "potential' occurs at a speed related to that of light, but electrons, which carry most or all of the charge which makes up the current, move quite slowly in a conductor. And positive ions move even slower. I don't think that the two, meeting at "half the wire length" is correct either, or relevant to the principle. > > 5. Joe used a permanent magnet for his rotor. I think he should have used an > electromagnet and pulsed it the same as the fixed coil.......................snip > Yes. And this is effectively what Gray did, in that he pulsed both the stator and rotor windings with a high voltage capacitive discharge when they were in juxtaposition. The two windings were in magnetic opposition. > > 6. Joe's large coils, close to four feet high and four feet in diameter > exhibited some very amazing things and I think Joe should never have left > these large machines and should have build them even bigger. The rotor on > this large motor had a weight of 600 pounds and a 200 rpm rotation could be > maintained with a 1 & 1/2 watt input. I want to see someone build a DC motor > with a 600 pound rotor and use 1 & 1/2 watts to keep it rotating at 200 rpm. > Do it yourself and then I will listen to your thoughts on it's not being > worth looking into. > Yes, but didn't Joe build that very large model simply to demonstrate the principle and prove the point of what he was saying ? Or are you saying that the size is somehow related to any potential "O/U" effect ? I can't see how the size has anything to do with "O/U" in this case. Again (and just as an example), Gray's motor was powered by a single 12 volt car battery, yet it produced 32.05 brake horse power (23,909 watts). Isn't that what might be called "O/U" ? It wasn't very large, and fitted neatly into the engine compartment of an automobile. > > 7. I believe Joe is an intuitive genius but may lack the engineering skills > to get his idea to overunity operation. I think Joe truly believes in his > theory and that his machines are overunity. How hard he has worked these many > years on his ideas is hard for me to believe. > Agreed. And it doesn't really matter what criticisms others may level at him, he is clearly a man of considerable intuitive perception, principle, and determination. > > 8. What I would like to see is the building of two coils of VERY large size. > Each coil around 5 feet in diameter by 4 feet high with iron cores that could > be removed. The coils would be wired series and be in repulsion. This would > reduce the induction of each coil to a degree. The wire length would be very > long and timing the pulses to last only till the charges meet at half wire > length (where the two coils connect) should not be very hard to do. If large > diameter wire was used so low voltage could be used to produce large magnetic > fields between these coils, I wonder just what could be discovered from > experimenting. > I still don't understand why you would want to build such large inductors Butch. By far the easiest way to test the principle, so clearly evident in both the Newman and Gray machines, is to engineer and construct a simplified mechanism, that runs by firing very high voltage pulses down a very long inductive (low distributed capacity) delay line (i.e. one microsecond per 1000 feet of wire). By using a very high voltage pulse, it eliminates the effective L/R time constant, in that the electron current reaches a particular pre-determined level much more rapidly. i.e. by the substitution of pure high voltage potential in the energy equation, rather than a physical electron current over 5 * L/R. The same energy produced, and stored in the inductor's magnetic field (and the re-directed back EMF it subsequently produces), can then be used to pulse charge a suitable capacitor, before discharging it through the stator, rotor, both in series, or whatever . (Remember too, that when you pulse charge a capacitor, the entropy (and therefore the energy required to do so), goes down in proportion to the number of applied pulses..... (i.e. entropy will tend to zero, as the number of pulse steps tend to infinity......) But then if you really want to get adventurous, and completely eliminate any possible physical electron current from the source, you can always pulse charge your capacitor from high voltage pulses, directed through an "Avramenko Plug". That is, by applying a single wire, high voltage pulsed potential, to two diodes, which charge the capacitor you intend to discharge through the stator and rotor windings. The rapid, high current, physical switching of the discharge is easily accomplished with a suitable spark gap, ....as Gray deliberately engineered to occur sequentially, and Joe discovered with the sparking of his high voltage commutator. There has been a lot of theoretical BS spoken previously about how Avramenko Plugs do or don't work, most of it to simply justify a number of conceptual errors in current electromagnetic orthodoxy. They actually DO work. > > snip..............................Could these coils repel > after a short pulse that is switched to cause an increasing inductive time > constant? What could be found testing different pulse duration's with and > without a switchable iron core rotor? Could a few flashlight batteries move > these two ton each, coils apart, even just a little? Could a 4 0r 5 hundred > pound rotor be made to turn and do work? > Not sure what you mean by "increasing the inductive time constant" here, but practical experimentation and demonstration by both E.V. Gray and Joseph Newman has shown that a more than adequate physical energy release occurs, when delayed high voltage pulses are used to actuate the inductive circuits of a purpose built high powered electric motor. Or if you would prefer, why not an electrical "O/U" generator without any moving parts. I suspect that Leon Dragone (given half a chance), would have eventually developed exactly that. From what I understand his high voltage experiments demonstrated precisely the same principle that reveals itself in both the Gray and Newman motors. > > I would love to see. > Like everyone else.....I'm working on it too....:-) Regards, Stuart Rae From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 20 18:05:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA14324; Sat, 20 May 2000 18:04:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 18:04:43 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The next Evolvation (pokemon) of the H2O power source Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 11:03:49 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3926E7B5.1BAB0668@csrlink.net> In-Reply-To: <3926E7B5.1BAB0668@csrlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA14283 Resent-Message-ID: <"sIjfn3.0.YV3.hOp9v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15222 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 20 May 2000 15:29:59 -0400, Mike Johnston wrote: [snip] >used in the system. Five cells is the number for 12v electricity at any >amperage. 90% efficiency in turning the electrical charge into chemical >energy should be possible (actually let's just say 90% of the >electricity you put in one end will not be coming out the other). Notice >there is a loss here. 50% would be nearer the mark in a real system. > From the cell the gasses produced will be delivered to our boiler. If >you want to put the Water Tower thing in at this point fine. If not >that's fine too. That device would work equally well on any steam >electric plant such as coal fired or nuclear.... >2) Boiler: A design such as mine will work nicely. Briefly; fuel (H2 gas >with O2 oxidizer) is burned inside the boiler in such a manner that >total combustion occurs. No outside air needs to be inducted. Pressure >is allowed to build to whatever the desired level is to turn the turbine >that is being used and then released to said turbine (under pressure) at >the same rate that it is being created thus keeping the boiler in >equilibrium. Our initial investment of energy here is the gasses that >are burned until the desired pressure is reached. Efficiency should be >over 90% here. We are releasing chemical energy as heat here. We add >pressure to it for free (aside from initial gas investment). Another >loss (sigh). "Add pressure to it for free?" - now you have lost me. >3)Turbine: Since the turbine requires pressure to run the heat losses >that are encountered here should still allow us steam at 1100 degrees >Celsius to exit the turbine (H2 and O2 burned together in a torch yield >2800 degrees Celsius). Therefore this steam should be able to provide >enough heat to cause the catalytic separation of H2 from the steam (in >combination with waste heat from the "skin" of the boiler if needed). >Such separation of H2 from the steam would be accomplished by one or >more of the following well known and accepted methods. >a) By running said steam over carbon. C(s) + H2O(g)------------>H2(g) + >CO(g) You need to ask yourself - "Where does the carbon come from?" Essentially this step is called "burning coal" and it is already used in a far more direct and efficient fashion to generate most of our electricity. > >1000 degrees >b) By running said steam over iron. 4H2O(g) + >3Fe(s)------------->Fe3O4(s) + 4H2(g) Same question "Where does the Fe come from?". In practice iron oxide is reduced to the metal by heating it with more coal in a blast furnace. > >1100 degrees >c) By running said steam over Platinum. This works with hydrocarbons to >form H2 gas so it is just a suggestion. Also running H2 and O2 gasses >over Platinum causes them to ignite, so why not? Because you would have to put in the same amount of energy that you got out, and you have already used some of this for other purposes, and some has escaped as heat into the environment. Catalysts do not perform miracles. All they do is speed up a reaction that would otherwise have run anyway, but slower. If a reaction won't run in the first place, then a catalyst won't help. > When you run water gas (the product of reaction a) over Fe3O4 you get >Fe and CO2 and effectively reverse reaction b. If you run these >reactions in line a then b you should end up with the products being >H2(g), CO2(g) and some residual steam. It would be nice to have no >residual steam but if you do it's not a problem at this point. The >engineers can work out the details later. If anyone knows how to crack >CO2 into C and O2 let me know (after all, plants do it). Yes, but they use solar energy for the purpose. We already have devices that capture solar energy more efficiently than plants (though not as cheaply perhaps). They are called solar cells. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 20 18:11:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA16600; Sat, 20 May 2000 18:10:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 18:10:43 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Source for Platinum for catalyst Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 11:09:49 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <392361AA.740033E7@csrlink.net> <3926CD3C.92B96349@csrlink.net> <0r6eisoimlav8epotiakpvle0o6bgq3ngf@4ax.com> <39272045.DE5D49D1@csrlink.net> In-Reply-To: <39272045.DE5D49D1@csrlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA16561 Resent-Message-ID: <"2qHIu.0.F34.IUp9v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15223 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 20 May 2000 19:31:18 -0400, Mike Johnston wrote: [snip] > Do you remember when some people with one of the car manufacturers were >trying to develop a catalytic converter that would convert the exhaust >gasses back into gasoline? I didn't think anyone would be that dense. >I read a brief piece on it a few years ago but >had forgotten all about it until I started playing with this. They failed. Not surprising. >I imagine it would be harder if you inducted air because of the various other >gasses you would have to deal with. NOx for one. Although I just read a >piece this past week about a company that has developed a device which >virtually eliminates NOx from a diesel exhaust by injecting urea into the >fuel line... Imagine that. I'm serious. Does that mean we should pee in our >fuel tanks now? You can try if you like :>. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 21 00:28:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA11186; Sun, 21 May 2000 00:27:31 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 00:27:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <39279058.96D4079D@csrlink.net> Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 03:29:28 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The next Evolvation (pokemon) of the H2O power source References: <3926E7B5.1BAB0668@csrlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"BCnUO2.0.Mk2.T_u9v"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15224 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: HI Robin, Well, in the system I made I used 12v and 10 amps. I checked it with a decent ammeter. The first cell read 12v, 10a going in and 12v, 8a going out and so on across all 5 with a 2a loss across each cell until the final one which showed 12v, 2a going in and 12v, and negligible amps coming out. I may have been able to run it further (more cells) but that would have dropped the voltage across the whole system. It was you, Robin several months ago who referred to someone else doing experiments with "hundreds" of cells and you predicted a 2v drop across each cell. You were right about the drop even though it was amperage because the two (volts and amps) are pretty much interchangeable in a D.C. system and I delivered it at 12v so I guess that is what was maintained which would seem to indicate that if it was a 24v circuit then it would stay at 24v as long as it could.. I imagine the hundreds of cells would have required more volts or amps but would indeed be possible or, as I said it would drop the production on each cell beyond a certain number. However, as long as you provide the "correct" number of cells (gauged to the loss per cell) you actually produce equal amounts of gas per cell. Continued below..... > > From the cell the gasses produced will be delivered to our boiler. If > >you want to put the Water Tower thing in at this point fine. If not > >that's fine too. That device would work equally well on any steam > >electric plant such as coal fired or nuclear.... > >2) Boiler: A design such as mine will work nicely. Briefly; fuel (H2 gas > >with O2 oxidizer) is burned inside the boiler in such a manner that > >total combustion occurs. No outside air needs to be inducted. Pressure > >is allowed to build to whatever the desired level is to turn the turbine > >that is being used and then released to said turbine (under pressure) at > >the same rate that it is being created thus keeping the boiler in > >equilibrium. Our initial investment of energy here is the gasses that > >are burned until the desired pressure is reached. Efficiency should be > >over 90% here. We are releasing chemical energy as heat here. We add > >pressure to it for free (aside from initial gas investment). Another > >loss (sigh). > > "Add pressure to it for free?" - now you have lost me. Maybe free is a bad word. It is obviously NOT free but I did mention the initial investment of gasses. I said beyond that it is free. To be more descriptive imagine that we take an oxyhydrogen torch and put it inside a chamber/pipe. The tip extends into the pipe and the gas feeds are outside it.It is solid on three sides with an outlet pipe on the third side. This outlet pipe feeds steam to the turbine. Between the boiler and the turbine there is a flow control valve. Before we open the valve to the turbine we light the gasses inside. I imagine you'd have to have some outside air in there originally because the gasses (H2 and O2) alone would get smaller as they combust into steam (volume wise). The fact that the percentages of the two gasses in water is the perfect one to cause complete combustion of the H2 would indicate that you don't need to induct any outside air to have the system produce superheated steam. This is great because you don't have any "up the chimney" losses. You don't have to heat water to produce the steam because your only produce IS steam. You would just have to burn enough to set up the pressure that you have to have to run your turbine. Then you open the valve to the turbine and regulate the flow of steam so that you are delivering to the turbine exactly the amount that you are creating at any given moment. This will keep this part of the system in equilibrium. The outgoing steam will be delivered with the pressure "head" behind it that you have let build before you opened the valve. As long as you maintain this equilibrium you maintain this pressure head. It is free in the sense that you only have to build the pressure once but not free in the sense that it costs you gasses to initially build it. Of course there would be some heat losses through the skin of the boiler as well. Like I said I thought this would be a fun thing to do. I'm not out to get a patent. I'm just trying to make my own contribution. Other people are doing a lot more but I think they are trying to develop a salable device. I think greed is what f'd everything up in the first place so if I hit on a good thing then it's on here for free and that might make it harder for anyone to monopolize it. If I don't then, oh well, it was fun trying. MJ > > > >3)Turbine: Since the turbine requires pressure to run the heat losses > >that are encountered here should still allow us steam at 1100 degrees > >Celsius to exit the turbine (H2 and O2 burned together in a torch yield > >2800 degrees Celsius). Therefore this steam should be able to provide > >enough heat to cause the catalytic separation of H2 from the steam (in > >combination with waste heat from the "skin" of the boiler if needed). > >Such separation of H2 from the steam would be accomplished by one or > >more of the following well known and accepted methods. > >a) By running said steam over carbon. C(s) + H2O(g)------------>H2(g) + > >CO(g) > > You need to ask yourself - "Where does the carbon come from?" > Essentially this step is called "burning coal" and it is already used in a > far more direct and efficient fashion to generate most of our electricity. > > > > >1000 degrees > >b) By running said steam over iron. 4H2O(g) + > >3Fe(s)------------->Fe3O4(s) + 4H2(g) > > Same question "Where does the Fe come from?". In practice iron oxide is > reduced to the metal by heating it with more coal in a blast furnace. > > > > >1100 degrees > >c) By running said steam over Platinum. This works with hydrocarbons to > >form H2 gas so it is just a suggestion. Also running H2 and O2 gasses > >over Platinum causes them to ignite, so why not? > > Because you would have to put in the same amount of energy that you got out, > and you have already used some of this for other purposes, and some has > escaped as heat into the environment. Catalysts do not perform miracles. All > they do is speed up a reaction that would otherwise have run anyway, but > slower. If a reaction won't run in the first place, then a catalyst won't > help. > > > When you run water gas (the product of reaction a) over Fe3O4 you get > >Fe and CO2 and effectively reverse reaction b. If you run these > >reactions in line a then b you should end up with the products being > >H2(g), CO2(g) and some residual steam. It would be nice to have no > >residual steam but if you do it's not a problem at this point. The > >engineers can work out the details later. If anyone knows how to crack > >CO2 into C and O2 let me know (after all, plants do it). > > Yes, but they use solar energy for the purpose. We already have devices that > capture solar energy more efficiently than plants (though not as cheaply > perhaps). They are called solar cells. > [snip] > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 21 04:36:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA03817; Sun, 21 May 2000 04:36:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 04:36:12 -0700 Message-ID: <3927C95A.97383CDF@harti.com> Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 13:32:42 +0200 From: Stefan Hartmann Organization: Hartmann Multimedia Service X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [de]C-CCK-MCD QXW03200 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "jlnlabs@egroups.com" , "ou-builders@egroups.com" , Free Energy , Newman-L Mailing List Subject: No more stink!:)3rd Watercar movie now online ! X-Priority: 1 (Highest) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"yCiHZ1.0.Wx.iey9v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15225 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, the 3rd movies is now online ! The movie is here: http://mars.spaceports.com/~over/movies/ It is called waterc02.asf. It is better to use NetVampire or GetRight to download it to avoid broken downloads at this big file size. It is about 10 Mbytes big and has a screen size of 320x240 and runs with 25 frames/sec already very good on a Pentium1 120 Mhz machine in double size mode 640x480 (ALT + 3) or in FullScreen mode ( press: ALT + ENTER). Also if it plays not smooth on lower end PCs, just go to File/Properties/MPEG-4 Decompressor and set the CPU quality to ZERO ! This will help to speed up the decoding ! You need to have installed the new Mediaplayer 6.4 from Microsoft, which you can get for free at: http://www.microsoft.com/windowsmedia There is also a version for MAC users there. --- In ou-builders@egroups.com, "John Huckfeldt" wrote: > Is there any info about the intake manifold modifications he has done. > The air filter Etc are not there - is that just for the demo? >What exactly does all that plumbing hardware do? - besides >the obvious > You can get a desscription of why not in the 3rd movie which is now uploaded !(If you can understand it, I have some problems with the explanation..) > The electrolysis doesn't appear to be happening in a used car battery > to me - it looks more like a stainless steel tank with a perspex lid Yes, this is already a second generation unit. He also uses water cooling via the fan to keep the electrolysis water cold. It also has now seperated H2 and O2 outlets and a water level control unit build into it. > > The camera man was a little frustrating - but I could understand >what they were saying. Yes, there were some understanding problems, language barriers, cause Mr. Czapp is also German and does not so well understand English language with a slang. He also thought, that he would still see the first earlier electrolysis unit, so he did not expect to see the second generation one. ALso he was not prepared very well for the visit, cause it was very spontaneously arranged. But I guess, you see, that the system is running. I just uploaded now the 2 movies again with the proper set encoder, so it should play now more smoothly. Here is also a very interesting statement about electrolysis efficiency: From: Ben Miday Date: Fri May 19, 2000 1:26pm Subject: RE: Address of Watercar inventor Here is an interesting statement.... >From "FUEL FROM WATER, Energy Independence with Hydrogen" Author Michael A. Peavey Publisher Merit, Inc., P.O. Box 694 Louisville, KY 40205 Library of Congress Number 88-188956 ISBN 0-945516-04-5 Page 22 " The smallest amount of energy needed to electrolyse one mole of water is 65.3 Wh at 25 degrees Celcius (77 degress F). When the Hydrogen and Oxygen are recombined into water during combustion 79.3 Wh of energy is released. 14 Wh more energy is released in burning Hydrogen and Oxygen than is required to split water. This excess must be absorbed from the surrounding media(environment) in the form of heat during electolysis." And then, "At 25 degrees celcius, for voltages of 1.23 to 1.47 V, the electrolysis reaction ABSORBS HEAT. At over 1.47 V at 25 degrees celcius, the reaction gives off heat." Ben =========================== Regards, Stefan. I hope it will get now much more known and all our cars will be soon converted to water powered. Enjoy ! -- Best regards, Stefan Hartmann. -- Hartmann Multimedia Service, Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498 email: harti@harti.com info@ccard.net http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB ! From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 21 04:57:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA08448; Sun, 21 May 2000 04:57:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 04:57:35 -0700 Message-ID: <3927CE58.D4B0504@harti.com> Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 13:54:00 +0200 From: Stefan Hartmann Organization: Hartmann Multimedia Service X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [de]C-CCK-MCD QXW03200 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robin van Spaandonk , Free Energy , Newman-L Mailing List , "ou-builders@egroups.com" , "jlnlabs@egroups.com" Subject: Re: 2nd Water powered car movie now online ! References: <39270EF3.1020EF42@harti.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"q1LW_2.0.t32.lyy9v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15226 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I deleted the file and uploaded it again. It is now the second upload with 10.004.205 Bytes. Maybe I just deleted the file as you just downloaded it. Try again. Regards, Stefan. Robin van Spaandonk schrieb: > > On Sun, 21 May 2000 00:17:23 +0200, Stefan Hartmann wrote: > Hi Stefan, > > I downloaded waterc01.asf, but Mediaplayer 6.4 claims it is corrupt. > Could you tell me the exact number of bytes in the file (just look in file > properties)? > > TIA, > > Robin -- Best regards, Stefan Hartmann. -- Hartmann Multimedia Service, Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498 email: harti@harti.com info@ccard.net http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB ! From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 21 07:26:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA04856; Sun, 21 May 2000 07:25:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 07:25:38 -0700 From: UNIR2B1NM@aol.com Message-ID: <54.428249b.26594b31@aol.com> Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 10:22:41 EDT Subject: Re: gasoline idea... To: alexp@halogenstudios.com (Alex P), alik@intergate.bc.ca (Alik S), bill@basselectronics.com, byronw@erols.com, bruce@himacresearch.com, Charlie_Hodgson@s2systems.com (Charlie Hodgson), cliff_harris@earthlink.net (Cliff Harris), dachieri@theoffice.net (Dante Chierico), dave.tingley@juno.com, eadams1@pilot.infi.net (E. Adams), ellisrosser@mindspring.com, farmerbrow@webtv.net, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, gclayton@fly2.ca (Geraldine Clayton), gsawyer@dove.net.au (Glenville Sawyer), housed@indiana.edu (David House), jackie@sweetliberty.org, janetji@mphs.net, jdo@ucalgary.ca (Jorg D. Ostrowski), jham@iahf.com, jkk@gwi.net (Jim Ketchum), johnhoffman@webtv.net, joowdrum@freewwweb.com.Jeffery.Lyn.Woodrum, knuke@lcia.com (Michael T Huffman), LibbeyD@coned.com (Libbey,David G.), maplegrove@ckt.net (Dave Turcotte), MikeSeiler@aol.com, mjvenuto@cs.millersv.edu (Michael J. Venuto), mksboysal@hotmail.com (Mehmet Boysal), nichols@cybrtyme.com (David Nichols), nusara@samart.co.th (Nusara Ratanaprakarn), Patriot573@cs.com, rcsnyder@yahoo.com (Bob Snyder), richard@adnc.com, rocketrobert@home.com (Robert Moore), root@mail.bcsupernet.com (Patrick), rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk), sgarza@americanengr.com (Sam Garza), shipent@wehandleit.com (Al Toth), the_beercan@yahoo.com, tim@polyhedra.com, thomas131@jps.net (Thomas), tsleber@info2000.net (Ted Leber), w9sz@prairienet.org (Zack Widup), wiltbank@facstaff.wisc.edu (John Wiltbank), yore@rsg.org (Pete Yore) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 101 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id HAA04797 Resent-Message-ID: <"o-eNn2.0.kB1.Y7_9v"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15227 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott wrote: <> Was that <>? He told me the same. << He concluded that most people who develop a carb don't know what it's actually doing so they don't know to add water and set themselves up for a fall. The EPA adds and additive to the gas which coats the iron that their hot box is made of and without the catalist ( excuse spelling ) the thing quits working. ( Without the cracking, the fuel recondenses during the compression stroke. ) My thoughts to build a successful unit are: Use electronics and servo valves to regulate the operation. Use two chambers, both heated, the first to evaporate the fuel and collect the additive coatings and the second where water vapor is added and replaceable iron chunks ( catalist ) to insure proper cracking.>> Sounds right. Bruce has several devices that can be used conjunctively, totalling up to appreciable mileage increases, but he says serious investment $ is needed to perfect the 'cracking' system. To me, 2 things are interesting... ** WRT the best use of gasoline: A Coleman lantern vaporizes all gasoline components completely with *heat*, because the process occurs at *atmospheric pressure*. A Telsa turbine (cheap & easily constructed...TEBA/Tesla Engine Builders Assn.)--which needs no compression stroke, only gas expansion--might therefore represent a tenable substitute for reciprocating engines. Sam Garza <> claims to have experience incorporating the Tesla tubine into a nopvel conveyance; he might be able to advise us about retrofitting conventional cars. ** WRT the best use of existing engines: There's word of a new *water electrolysis* unit to replace or at least assist existing fuel induction systems. Contact info follows. Let me know if you uncover anything promising. ----------------------------- Water Car inventor Dan Dingle´s Manager: *** > Dr.Ernesto S. Luis *** > *** > Industrial Technology Development Institute *** > *** > Development Science *** > *** > Bicutan Science Complex *** > *** > Taguig, Metro Manila, Philippines *** > *** > Fax 00632 - 837 3167 / 837 0032 *** > *** > Tel. - 837 2071 ------------------------------------ <> --------------------------------- NM, Russ Rosser UNIR2B1NM@aol.com (‘You & I are to be one in Him’) H) 256-546-5945 C).256-490-4158 c/o 304 Old Camp Rd. Gadsden AL 35904 From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 21 10:01:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA11152; Sun, 21 May 2000 10:00:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 10:00:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: bilb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 10:00:52 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <39234988.EA1B67AF@ihug.co.nz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"lB9V8.0.0k2.7P1Av"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15228 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Re: Hey Bill !!!!!!!! Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 18 May 2000, John Berry wrote: > In a case like: Re: FNG: Re: Re: 83 Years Ago > > It is not the FNG that can be to blame... > Only in a case where Re: follows FNG: not when Re: follows Re: > So I don't think that changing it will help much.... Right, although most email programs do not produce "Re: Re: Re: Re:" Perhaps the FNG: confuses them smoehow. Let's try [FG]:, and see if "Re: Re: Re:" still occurs. ................................freenrg-L.................................... William Beaty bilb@eskimo.com EE/Programmer/exhibit-designer/science-nerd Moderator: FREENRG-L VORTEX-L TAOSHUM-L WEBHEAD-L http://www.eskimo.com/~bilb/freenrgl/flist.html Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com voice:206-781-3320 From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 21 11:03:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA03564; Sun, 21 May 2000 11:03:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 11:03:12 -0700 From: tgrimes1@juno.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 13:58:19 -0400 Message-ID: <20000521.135830.-404413.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-2,4,6,8-10,16-20 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 Resent-Message-ID: <"Vjg6h1.0.Wt.WJ2Av"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15229 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Re: Electrolysis Boost On Sat, 20 May 2000 19:24:14 -0400 Mike Johnston writes: > HI Robin, > Yes, I know but as I understand it, it is hard to separate the resulting CO > and H2. That means that, in a water based system, you would end up putting out > Carbon Monoxide just like gasoline does. Of course it would be a much cheaper > fuel source but not very environmentally friendly. CO burns by 2 CO + O2 ---> 2 CO2, releasing 283 kJ/mol of heat (H2 gives out 285 kJ/mol of heat as it burns). The energy gained by burning an H2/CO mixture is approximately the same as pure H2 or pure CO, so separation is unnecessary. The products, of course, are H2O and CO2. Neither are harmful to the environment, although CO2 is a greenhouse gas and is considered to be pollution to some people. -Tom Grimes mailto:tgrimes1@juno.com ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 21 21:01:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA19079; Sun, 21 May 2000 21:01:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 21:01:09 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 14:00:09 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <39270EF3.1020EF42@harti.com> In-Reply-To: <39270EF3.1020EF42@harti.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id VAA19045 Resent-Message-ID: <"HcUtW.0.yf4.54BAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15230 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Re: 2nd Water powered car movie now online ! Hi, Having now seen all three movies, I must say that I am singularly unimpressed. The presentation was a complete waste of time and effort. What was wrong: 1) No apparent effort was made to prove that gasoline was not being used. E.g. an analysis of the exhaust fumes would be enlightening. 2) No effort was made to show that the vehicle didn't contain hidden batteries. 3) Performance parameters weren't clearly specified. 4) Vague claims were made with little or no proof. 5) The video quality was low, and much time was wasted on things which were completely meaningless. A few well chosen photos would probably have been more useful. 6) The only diagram presented was right at the end of one movie, and the sound was a mess. Suggestion for anyone else doing this: Don't try to film the entire proceedings when you go to visit. First arrange with the inventor to do a special video presentation, then film nothing at all until you have had a chance to examine everything to your own satisfaction. Then do a trial run presentation. Then check out the result, with in mind viewers who know nothing, change the presentation where needed, then do the real thing. Have a microphone close to your own mouth while filming, and provide a running commentary in clear concise language. If you are incapable of doing this, take along someone who is capable. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 09:56:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA29801; Mon, 22 May 2000 09:54:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 09:54:56 -0700 From: JNaudin509@aol.com Message-ID: <3f.5199041.265ac030@aol.com> Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 12:54:08 EDT To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 30 Resent-Message-ID: <"4AhWF.0.GH7.WPMAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15231 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: ELG-Hat: A very interesting experiments in electrogravitics. Dear All, I have update my web site with a very interesting experiment on electrogravitics : - The Frolov's ELG-Hat experiment. This experiment is based on the T-Shaped capacitor built and designed by Alexander Frolov, it uses an improved Biefeld-Brown effect. This special design improves significantly the thrust and needs only few kV (5-10 kV) compared to the high voltage (30-250 kV) required by the original experiment from T.Townsend Brown. The Frolov's T-Shaped capacitor experiment has been fully presented in the Frolov's web site and also in the Electric Space Craft journal (issue 30, page 30 ( March 2000 )). When the power supply is switched on, the ELG-Balance shows a net loss of weight of the ELG-Hat (initialy 4 grammes) generated by the electrogravitic thrust. The thrust is produced as long as the power supply is energized and its internal capacitors charged. You will find all diagrams, pictures and videos about the Frolov's ELG-Hat experiment is at : http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/elghatv1.htm You will find also all diagrams and detail for constructing yourself : - a high sensitive balance for your electrogravitics experiments at : http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/elghatbld.htm - a 30kV DC power supply (that I have used for the ELG-Hat experiment) at : http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/30kvgen.htm Good explorations and experiments about electrogravitics, Best Regards, Jean-Louis Naudin Email: Jnaudin509@aol.com Main Web site: http://go.to/jlnlabs eGroup:http://www.egroups.com/group/jlnlabs/ From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 11:07:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA31269; Mon, 22 May 2000 11:06:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:06:55 -0700 From: HLafonte@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 14:06:13 EDT To: harti@harti.com, jlnlabs@egroups.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 102 Resent-Message-ID: <"2rbDM1.0.Ke7._SNAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15232 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Water car, water only fuel on board? Stefan, This man with the water car, is he saying that the car engine runs on the gases from electrolysis of water, then the engine also supplies electrical energy back to the electrolysis process to produce more of the gases, with power left over to also move the car? Does he use any energy source other than the water to power the electrolysis process? Is water the only fuel on board? Thanks, Butch From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 11:26:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA07382; Mon, 22 May 2000 11:25:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:25:43 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3f.5199041.265ac030@aol.com> References: <3f.5199041.265ac030@aol.com> Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 08:25:29 -1000 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: [FG]: ELG-Hat: A very interesting experiments in electrogravitics. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"o3BBi1.0.Fp1.ckNAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15233 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Jean-Louis wrote: >Dear All, > >I have update my web site with a very interesting experiment on >electrogravitics : > >- The Frolov's ELG-Hat experiment. >This experiment is based on the T-Shaped capacitor built and designed by >Alexander Frolov, it uses an improved Biefeld-Brown effect. >[snip] I trust this will not produce any effect in a good vacuum. The ion propelled air flow over the barier from one electrode to the other probably makes a nice magnus-type low pressure on the upper surface of the "hat" and produces some lift. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 11:44:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA16089; Mon, 22 May 2000 11:42:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:42:53 -0700 MR-Received: by mta EUROPA; Relayed; Mon, 22 May 2000 14:41:23 -0400 (EDT) MR-Received: by mta GOSIP; Relayed; Mon, 22 May 2000 14:10:43 -0400 (EDT) Alternate-recipient: prohibited Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 14:22:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 Subject: RE: [FG]: ELG-Hat: A very interesting experiments in electrog In-reply-to: <3f.5199041.265ac030@aol.com> To: freenrg-l Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Posting-date: Mon, 22 May 2000 14:41:00 -0400 (EDT) Importance: normal Priority: normal UA-content-id: E2712ZYLZKZVLB X400-MTS-identifier: [;32144122500002/4748164@ODNVMS] A1-type: MAIL Hop-count: 2 Resent-Message-ID: <"GUjBd3.0.Dx3.j-NAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15234 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com All, Perhaps it's just me, but didn't a lot of the early UFO pictures show craft that look an awful lot like some of the devices that we are seeing replicated here? I tend to believe that most of the UFO's that have been seen are just the military testing devices that are purely earth based in their technology. They have just had more time and a lot more money to develop craft based on these basic principles. Unless you want to say these basic principles were taught to us by aliens? Have Frolov, Biefeld or Brown ever indicated that they were abductees? ;^) Bill webriggs@concentric.net Briggs@XLNsystems.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 12:08:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA24743; Mon, 22 May 2000 12:06:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 12:06:38 -0700 From: HLafonte@aol.com Message-ID: <99.526e70a.265adf13@aol.com> Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 15:05:55 EDT To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, jlnlabs@egroups.com, energy21@listbot.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_99.526e70a.265adf13_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 102 Resent-Message-ID: <"svQls2.0.I26.-KOAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15235 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: First draft of Newman spinoff (Butch) --part1_99.526e70a.265adf13_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit See Attachment, operation theory being typed Thanks, Butch --part1_99.526e70a.265adf13_boundary Content-Type: image/gif; name="lowhigh.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="lowhigh.gif" R0lGODlhCgKAAfcAAAAAAAAA//97AP+cOf+cQv////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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ZF7xzed025vO+AZ3vk+07HFTul6cxeK/E47oghscrUZGeKC53dpoP/vQioW4xD04al9D29du BflFSf3OvAJb08H2eMtd/nKYx1zmM6d5zW1+c5znXOcnCggAADs= --part1_99.526e70a.265adf13_boundary-- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 13:30:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA29236; Mon, 22 May 2000 13:29:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 13:29:54 -0700 From: UNIR2B1NM@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 16:28:33 EDT To: alexp@halogenstudios.com CC: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 101 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA29182 Resent-Message-ID: <"BggzT.0.f87.2ZPAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15236 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Re: Supermpg cars << So have you found *any* that are real? I'm trying to get a hold of RPI (Raptor-Tech.com), their product claims 1500% increase ... but who knows. >> The problem, it seems, is how the oil companies have intentionally DISIMPROVED gasoline's readiness to vaporize since the successful vapor carbs of yesteryear (including Tom Ogle's). The contemporary problem is re-condensation of fuel vapor during the compression stroke. I haven't yet received an educated guess on whether ultrasonics can 'crack' gasoline into volatile gasses (my time is much too constrained lately), but Bruce at himacresearch.com and George Wiseman agree that heat vaporization followed by CATALYTIC 'cracking' will yield an ideal result, once suficient R & D funding becomes available. Thanks for your interest! Regards, Russ Rosser UNIR2B1NM@aol.com (‘You & I are to be one in Him’) H) 256-546-5945 C).256-490-4158 c/o 304 Old Camp Rd. Gadsden AL 35904 From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 13:40:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA06319; Mon, 22 May 2000 13:39:25 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 13:39:25 -0700 (PDT) From: JNaudin509@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 16:38:14 EDT Subject: Re: [FG]: ELG-Hat: A very interesting experiments in electrogravitics. To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id NAA06239 Resent-Message-ID: <"9LhB_.0.YY1.shPAv"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15237 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Dans un courrier daté du 22/05/00 20:26:13 Paris, Madrid (heure d'été), rick@highsurf.com a écrit : > trust this will not produce any effect in a good vacuum. Have you a free ticket for the next Space Shuttle mission ? I shall be glad to test this in hard vacuum.... Regards Jean-Louis Naudin From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 13:43:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA01170; Mon, 22 May 2000 13:42:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 13:42:54 -0700 Message-ID: <004701bfc42e$3206a820$a6d666ce@default> From: "Chris O'Barr" To: Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 16:42:06 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"lYrty.0.2I.DlPAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15238 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Re: Source for Platinum for catalyst -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Saturday, May 20, 2000 9:11 PM Subject: Re: Source for Platinum for catalyst >On Sat, 20 May 2000 19:31:18 -0400, Mike Johnston wrote: >[snip] >> Do you remember when some people with one of the car manufacturers were >>trying to develop a catalytic converter that would convert the exhaust >>gasses back into gasoline? > >I didn't think anyone would be that dense. > >>I read a brief piece on it a few years ago but >>had forgotten all about it until I started playing with this. They failed. > >Not surprising. > >>I imagine it would be harder if you inducted air because of the various other >>gasses you would have to deal with. NOx for one. Although I just read a >>piece this past week about a company that has developed a device which >>virtually eliminates NOx from a diesel exhaust by injecting urea into the >>fuel line... Imagine that. I'm serious. Does that mean we should pee in our >>fuel tanks now? >You can try if you like :>. I know someone who really screwed up someone else's engine by uranating in their gas tank. Don't do it. > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 13:55:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA02891; Mon, 22 May 2000 13:49:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 13:49:42 -0700 From: JNaudin509@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 16:46:42 EDT Subject: Re: [FG]: ELG-Hat: A very interesting experiments in electrogravitics. To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA02852 Resent-Message-ID: <"_PQ3o2.0.2j.WrPAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15239 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Dans un courrier daté du 22/05/00 20:26:13 Paris, Madrid (heure d'été), rick@highsurf.com a écrit : > I trust this will not produce any effect in a good vacuum. Hi Rick, You will find an interesting letter from T.T.Brown himself below... Best Regards, Jean-Louis Naudin ----------------------------------------- "ELECTRIC WIND" IN HARD VACUUM ? A letter from The Townsend Brown foundation, Ltd. Nassau, Bahamas and dated February 14, 1973 arrived, carrying the following information, personally signed by T.Townsend Brown. Dear ...., You have asked several question which I shall try to answer. The experiments in vavuum were conducted at "Societe Nationale de Construction Aeronautique" in Paris in 1955-56, in the Bahnson Laboratories, Winston-Salem, North Carolina in 1957-58 and at the "General Electric Space Center" at King of Prussia, Penna, in 1959. Laboratory notes were made, but these notes were never published and are not availible to me now. The results were varied, depending upon the purpose of the experiment. We were aware that the thrust on the electrode structures were caused largely by ambiant ion momentum transfer when the experiments were conducted in air. Many of the tests, therefore, were directed to the exploration of this component of the total thrust. In the case of the G.E. test, cesium ions were seeded into the environment and the additional thrust due to seeding was observed. In the Paris test miniature saucer type airfoils were operated in a vaccum exceeding 10-6mm Hg. Bursts of thrust (towards the positive) were observed every time there was a vaccum spark within the large bell jar. These vacuum sparks represented momentary ionization, principally of the metal ions in the electrode material. The DC potential used ranged from 70kV to 220kV. Condensers of various types, air dielectric and barium titanate were assembled on a rotary support to eliminate the electrostatic effect of chamber walls and observations were made of the rate of rotation. Intense acceleration was always observed during the vacuum spark (which, incidentally, illuminated the entire interior of the vacuum chamber). Barium Titanate dielectrique always exceeded air dielectric in total thrust. The results which were most significant from the -standpoint of the Biefeld-Brown effect was that thrust continued, even when there was no vacuum spark, causing the rotor to accelerate in the negative to positive direction to the point where voltage had to be reduced or the experiment discontinued because of the danger that the rotor would fly apart. In short, it appears there is strong evidence that Biefeld-Brown effect does exist in the negative to positive direction in a vacuum of at least 10-6 Torr. The residual thrust is several orders of magnitude larger than the remaining ambient ionization can account for. Going further in your letter of January 28th, the condenser "Gravitor" as described in my British patent, only showed a loss of weight when vertically oriented so that the negative-to-postive thrust was upward. In other words, the thrust tended to "lift" the gravitor. Maximum thrust observed in 1928 for one gravitor weighing approximately 10 kilograms was 100 kilodynes at 150kV DC. These gravitors were very heavy, many of them made with a molded dielectric of lead monoxide and beeswax and encased in bakelite. None of these units ever "floated" in the air. There were two methods of testing, either as a pendulum, in which the angle of rise against gravity was measured and charted against the applied voltage, or, as a rotor 4ft. in diameter, on which four "gravitors" were mounted on the periphery. This 4 ft. wheel was tested in air and also under transformer oil. The total thust or torque remained virtually the same in both instances, seeming to prove that aero-ionization was not wholly responsible for the thrust observed. Voltage used on the experiments under oil could be increased to about 300kV DC and the thrust appeared to be linear with voltage. In subsequent years, from 1930 to 1955, critical experiments were performed at the Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC.; the Randall-Morgan Laboratory of Physics, University of Penna., Philadelphia; at a field station in Zanesvill, Ohio, and two field stations in Southern California, of the torque was measured continuously day and night for many years. Large magnitude variations were consistenly observed under carefully controlled conditions of constant voltage, temperature, under oil, in magnetic and electrostatic shields, not only underground but at various elevations. These variations, recorded automatically on tape, were statistically processed and several significant facts were revealed. There were pronounced correlations with mean solar time, sideral time and lunar hour angle. This seemed to prove beyond a doubt that the thrust of "gravitors" varied with time in a way that related to solar and lunar tides and sideral correlation of unknown origin. These automatic records, acquired in so many different locations over such a long period of time, appear to indicate that the electrogravitic coupling is subject to an extra-terrestrial factor, possibly related to the universal gravitational potential or some other (as yet) unidentified cosmic variable. In response to additional questions, a reply of T.T. Brown, dated April, 1973, stated : "The apparatus which lifted itself and floated in the air, which was described by Mr Kitselman, was not a massive dielectric as described in the English patent. Mr Kitselman witnessed an experiment utilising a 15" circular, dome-shaped aluminum electrode, wired and energized as in the attached sketch. When the high voltage was applied, this device, althrough tethered by wires from the high voltage equipment, did rise in the air, lifting not only its own weight but also a small balance weight which was attached to it on the uderside. It is true that this apparatus would exert a force upward of 110% of its weight. The above experiment was an improvement on the experiment performed in Paris in 1955 and 1956 on disc air foils. The Paris experiments were the same as those shown to Admiral Radford in Pearl Harbor in 1950. These experiments were explained by scientific community as due entirely to "ion-momentum transfer", or "electric wind". It was predicted categorically by many "would-be" authorities that such an apparatus would not operate in vaccum. The Navy rejected the research proposal (for further research) for this reason. The experiments performed in Paris several years later, proved that ion wind was not entirely responsible for the observed motion and proved quite conclusively that the apparatus would indeed operate in high vacuum. Later these effects were confirmed in a laboratory at Winston-Salem, N.C., especially constructed for this purpose. Again continuous force was observed when the ionization in the medium surrounding the apparatus was virtually nil. In reviewing my letter of April 5th, I notice, in the drawing which I attached, that I specified the power supply to be 50kV. Actually, I should have indicated that it was 50 to 250kV DC for the reason that the experiments were conducted throughout that entire range. The higher the voltage, the greater was the force observed. It appeared that, in these rough tests, that the increase in force was approximately linear with voltage. In vaccum the same test was carried on with a canopy electrode approximately 6" in diameter, with substantial force being displayed at 150 kV DC. I have a short trip of movie film showing this motion within the vacuum chamber as the potential is applied." Kindest personal regards, Sincerely, T.Townsend Brown. ----------- >From the book: "Ether Technology, A rational Approach to Gravity Control" by Sigma, Rho. Adventures Unlimited Press, 1996 From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 14:19:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA14019; Mon, 22 May 2000 14:16:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 14:16:22 -0700 Message-ID: <006401bfc42f$d6f8cd80$a6d666ce@default> From: "Chris O'Barr" To: Subject: Re: [FG]: ELG-Hat: A very interesting experiments in electrogravitics. Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 16:53:52 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"gAr5E3.0.yQ3.bEQAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15240 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com I was unaware that a good vacuum can't be achieved on Earth. -----Original Message----- From: JNaudin509@aol.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Monday, May 22, 2000 4:46 PM Subject: Re: [FG]: ELG-Hat: A very interesting experiments in electrogravitics. >Dans un courrier daté du 22/05/00 20:26:13 Paris, Madrid (heure d'été), >rick@highsurf.com a écrit : > >> trust this will not produce any effect in a good vacuum. > >Have you a free ticket for the next Space Shuttle mission ? I shall be glad >to test this in hard vacuum.... > >Regards > >Jean-Louis Naudin > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 14:47:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA28196; Mon, 22 May 2000 14:46:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 14:46:56 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:46:44 -1000 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: [FG]: ELG-Hat: A very interesting experiments in electrogravitics. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"DSDi43.0.Nu6.DhQAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15241 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com At 4:38 PM -0400 5/22/00, JNaudin509@aol.com wrote: >Have you a free ticket for the next Space Shuttle mission ? I shall be glad >to test this in hard vacuum.... *Free* ticket? I pay taxes for that darn thing so it's not free, but my invitation for a ride seems to have been lost in the mail or something. I have little to no doubt that the BB effect is real, but that such effects are completely buried behind the vastly larger ionic effects as in the 'hat' experiment you've posted. It's a nice demo, but for practical purposes, it's *all* ionic, yet you have ascribed the effect of lift to Biefeld Brown. That's the only proiblem I have with it. If it's BB you want to test on such a device, it's not too hard to make a vacuum chamber large enough to enclose your entire scale apparatus, and a good industrial pump would pull down enough to get a good look at it without the full force of ionic motion found at 1 atm. A rock-hard vacuum would be nice, but I doubt it would be necessary to get a curve of weight change versus air pressure. BB might show up in that curve as an upward divergence in weight loss versus lower pressure. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 14:50:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA29638; Mon, 22 May 2000 14:49:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 14:49:30 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <006401bfc42f$d6f8cd80$a6d666ce@default> References: <006401bfc42f$d6f8cd80$a6d666ce@default> Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:49:19 -1000 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: [FG]: ELG-Hat: A very interesting experiments in electrogravitics. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"RLGmh2.0.xE7.gjQAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15242 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com At 4:53 PM -0400 5/22/00, Chris O'Barr wrote: >I was unaware that a good vacuum can't be achieved on Earth. Extremely good vacuums are rather expensive and involved. But high vacuum might not be needed though to get BB to peek out from behind ionic effects; see my other post. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 14:57:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA31743; Mon, 22 May 2000 14:56:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 14:56:34 -0700 Reply-To: "Sparky" From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: [FG]: ELG-Hat: A very interesting experiments in electrogravitics. Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 17:55:05 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3f.5199041.265ac030@aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"N-XLw1.0.ul7.HqQAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15243 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com The issue isn't generating the vacuum... JLN is doing some interesting work in ion propulsion; although a literature search might show that a substantial body of work already exists in this field. He has yet to demonstrate that new forces are involved. I gather from his site that what interests him is moving a plane around, so I applaud his practical approach to the problem. Previously it was suggested that surrounding the device in a plastic bag would eliminate the ionic effect. I have doubts about this, really what ought to be done is encapsulate the device in a solid dielectric to prevent corona discharge, and see if there is A VARIATION in the propulsive effect. I would still not trust that the residual is purely some new force, but at least you'd have a better idea about the order of magnitude of the effect you're dealing with. By the way, anyone want to comment on how to produce the most efficient ion generator? Particularly one which produces predominately one species of ion? K. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 19:52:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA16694; Mon, 22 May 2000 19:51:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 19:51:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 19:51:39 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: ELG-Hat: do it in a bag? In-Reply-To: <3f.5199041.265ac030@aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"QWyAs3.0.g44.-8VAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15244 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Mon, 22 May 2000 JNaudin509@aol.com wrote: > - The Frolov's ELG-Hat experiment. > This experiment is based on the T-Shaped capacitor built and designed by > Alexander Frolov, it uses an improved Biefeld-Brown effect. This special > design improves significantly the thrust and needs only few kV (5-10 kV) > compared to the high voltage (30-250 kV) required by the original experiment > from T.Townsend Brown. The Frolov's T-Shaped capacitor experiment has been > fully presented in the Frolov's web site and also in the Electric Space Craft > journal (issue 30, page 30 ( March 2000 )). Quick and dirty test: For "antigravity" experiments, the thrusting force of air jets can be eliminated by enclosing the device in a bag. The air jets will still appear, but they will only stir the air within the bag. If the jet cannot expel mass and produce a momentum change, it cannot produce a thrust. This should work both for the air from flywheels and the electric wind from HV circuits. Also, it might be possible to detect electrostatic wind by measuring its current. Connect a metal plate through a nano-amp meter and to ground. Hold the plate with an insulating handle, and place it in any suspected path of electric wind. The plate should intercept the ions, and the meter will indicate a current. Here's a trick for using a standard DVM as a nanoamp meter: http://www.amasci.com/emotor/nanometr.txt The 10-megohm input impedance on a DVM will give 0.1V when 10nA is forced through the resistance. Where high voltages are concerned, 10 megohms acts like a good conductor, and a digital voltmeter acts like a short circuit (i.e., it acts like a current meter.) Watch out though, you can easily kill your DVM by letting a spark hit the terminals. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 20:32:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA32694; Mon, 22 May 2000 20:31:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 20:31:24 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 13:30:38 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3926E7B5.1BAB0668@csrlink.net> <39279058.96D4079D@csrlink.net> In-Reply-To: <39279058.96D4079D@csrlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA32665 Resent-Message-ID: <"IAxjE1.0.h-7.BkVAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15245 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Re: The next Evolvation (pokemon) of the H2O power source On Sun, 21 May 2000 03:29:28 -0400, Mike Johnston wrote: [snip] >across each cell. You were right about the drop even though it was amperage >because the two (volts and amps) are pretty much interchangeable in a D.C. >system and I delivered it at 12v so I guess that is what was maintained which You appear to be somewhat confused about voltage and current. The current coming out of any cell has be the same as the current going in (which you measure with a current meter in series with the cell on both sides). If all your cells were connected in parallel iso in series, and you measured the current in the wrong place, then it would appear to drop as you move from one cell to the next. If all the cells were connected in series, then the current should be the same everywhere in the circuit. [snip] > It is free in the sense that you only have to build the pressure once but not >free in the sense that it costs you gasses to initially build it. You seem to have forgotten that as soon as the valve is opened to allow steam into the turbine, the pressure will drop. So it's not free at all. It has to be maintained by continually burning H2/O2 mixture releasing chemical energy. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 21:46:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA10393; Mon, 22 May 2000 21:45:50 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 21:45:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: [FG]: ELG-Hat: A very interesting experiments in electrogravitics. Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 00:59:31 -0400 Message-ID: <20000523045931015.AAA267@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"3_ful3.0.IY2.ypWAv"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15246 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Rick writes: >Extremely good vacuums are rather expensive and involved. But high >vacuum might not be needed though to get BB to peek out from behind >ionic effects; see my other post. > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI The device as built by Jean-Louis could be greatly miniaturized, enough to fit into someone's existing vacuum set-up, and still be large enough to show the effect while posing no great problem to the builder insofar as requiring any expensive construction techniques. There are plenty of labs around with hard vac capability of varying size, just not any that will work with the size that he has presently made. A poll of some different labs would come up with a maximum allowable size that could be tested by any of them. Other issues, such as what materials of construction would be able to withstand hard vac conditions would have to be considered in the construction, but that is easily doable these days, as well. Myself, I'm quite happy to see what he has accomplished just in air, with the $30 worth of materials that he has used. It's quite remarkable. Thank you again Jean-Louis, for showing us all how to do this stuff! I've really enjoyed reading your page, and I've learned a lot. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 21:56:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA32297; Mon, 22 May 2000 21:55:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 21:55:39 -0700 Message-ID: <009d01bfc473$268fbaa0$0201a8c0@m> From: "Michael Randall" To: "freenrg-l" Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 21:55:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"qgo0j2.0.Uu7.BzWAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15247 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Address of Watercar inventor Hi Stefan, Today I called Dr. Luis about his water car and he seemed open to questions. I suggest anyone interested in learning more to give him a call. I asked if he could send me the plans and details of his unit construction so I could reproduce his design. He said that he needs to get approval first, from Daniel Dingle I presumed. I will call next again week to find out if it will be Ok. 1) The unit used 12 volts with a special electronic system. Unknown if it pulsed to hv. 2) Rain water with no electrolytes added. Needed clean water as any contaminates would corrode the electrodes. 3) Copper wire electrode in his first unit. Honeycomb electrode design used in the later units. Worked best with large surface areas. My interest was in powering building loads with generator/engine sets and he said that they are also working on this for the rural electrification in the Philippines. Regards, Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Stefan Hartmann To: Free Energy ; Newman-L Mailing List ; ; Sent: Friday, May 19, 2000 5:18 AM Subject: [jlnlabs] Address of Watercar inventor > > The address from Dingle´s Manager: > > *** > Dr.Ernesto S. Luis > *** > > *** > Industrial Technology Development Institute > *** > > *** > Development Science > *** > > *** > Bicutan Science Complex > *** > > *** > Taguig, Metro Manila, Philippines > *** > > *** > Fax 00632 - 837 3167 / 837 0032 > *** > > *** > Tel. - 837 2071 From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 22:05:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA03533; Mon, 22 May 2000 22:05:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 22:05:07 -0700 Reply-To: "Sparky" From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Rick Monteverde" Cc: "Freenrg-L" Subject: RE: [FG]: ELG-Hat: A very interesting experiments inelectrogravitics. Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 01:03:39 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"EUduy.0.2t.26XAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15248 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com I'm not sure I'd want to be in a hang glider or otherwise exposed to the active surface of the wing. It seems likely you'd be breathing N oxides and O3 in abundance. It would be like flying in a bug zapper... On the other hand, if you could control the ion species, think of the benefits of being completely immersed in a cloud of negative ions. I seem to remember seeing posted some information about ion motors where this problem was dealt with; was it TT Brown? Help me out here Brown worshippers :^) K. -----Original Message----- From: Rick Monteverde [mailto:rick@highsurf.com] Aerodynamic lift on surfaces is a funny thing. Get a coefficient of lift high enough, and you wouldn't need much effort to stay aloft. Totally passive surfaces like fixed airplane wings don't generate superhigh coefficients in the steady state, but sometimes you just need to add a little power in a special configuration. Cousteau's Halcyon (I think that's the boat) has a large magnus effect tube on her deck which is spun by a small engine, 10 hp if I remember, and this tube which looks like a smokestack from a larger vessel produces the lift/propulsion of a large sail in a good wind. Dragonflies, birds, etc. all seem to have some tricks to get very large lift efficiencies from wings that have very mundane efficiencies in a steady state. Tricks using ion driven skin airflow to get or enhance magnus or other steady or even transient effects might turn out to be really useful. I'm thinking especially of the man powered or ultralight category here. Flonk, flonk, ZAP! flonk, flonk, ZaaaaaaP! ... here comes that idiot with his high voltage electric ornithopter again... - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 22:09:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA07323; Mon, 22 May 2000 22:09:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 22:09:10 -0700 From: JNaudin509@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 01:08:30 EDT To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 30 Resent-Message-ID: <"y3Ju_1.0.Bo1.s9XAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15249 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: (Info) About the T.T. Brown Tests in vacuum Dear All, You will find below some intersting comments from the T.T. Brown himeself about his tests in vacuum done in 1956... Best Regards Jean-Louis Naudin ------------------------------------------------------------- The T.T. Brown Tests in vacuum - Leesburg, Virginia April 7th, 1956 << In the dynamic phase of the electrogravitics interaction, the force developed by a system of electric dipole is belived, to vary with the rate-of-change of the voltage between the dipole. This force, independant of the movement of ions or any mechanical reaction ............, operates in the direction of negative to positive so the voltage is increasing and presumably in the opposite direction so the voltage is decreasing. In vacuum (10-6 mm Hg or less), one interesting effect is observed. Any simple vacuum capacitor with appear to "flash" as the voltage increase, and, concurrent with little vaccum spark, an impulse force is reactivly in the direction of negative to positive. It is noted that the wave shape is as folow : + ____ ______ | / | / | / | / | / | / |/ 0 According to theory, the impulse is associated with the recovery of potential and not with the rapid decrease brought on by the vacuum spark. Two possibilities present themselves in explanation : (1) the decrease in potential is too rapid to produce an observable force mechanically (2) a balancing effect serving to prevent the force from being created may be present in the k,m (ether) medium. Therefore, since the downward voltage produces no force, the upward voltage is responsible for the observed force. There is evidence to support the belief that a local balancing effect actualy exists in the k,m?medium or field between or surrounding the electrodes, in that the effect is merely observed when the voltage change is caused by a vacuum spark or "flash" between the electrodes and not when wholly due to a chopper in the external circuit. The principal movement of the dipoles is therefore always associated with ( and probably caused by ) the vacuum spark or "flash". The nature of the vacuum spark, as related to the initiation of an electrogravitic impulse. >> From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 22:10:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA07808; Mon, 22 May 2000 22:10:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 22:10:01 -0700 From: JNaudin509@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 01:09:19 EDT To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 30 Resent-Message-ID: <"Ghths3.0.lv1.eAXAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15250 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: (Info) About the Biefield-Brown effect. Dear all, You will find some infos about the B.Brown effect below : << A "dielectric" is defined as a material which has the unique ability of absorbing electrical energy or "charge" without ordinarily passing this energy on to neighboring materials. Some dielectrics are able to absorb enormous quantities of electrical energy (also referred to as "elastic stress") without discharging, providing that the energy is fed into the dielectric slowly and at low potential. Still others can be charged at extremely high potential at a rate equal to several thousand times each second. Townsend Brown concerned himself principally with this latter type. Using just such a dielectric, Brown constructed disc (or saucer) shaped condensers, and, by applying various amounts of high voltage direct current, witnessed the Biefeld-Brown effect in action. With the proper construction and electrical potential (in the kilovolt range) the disc-shaped "airfoils" were made to fly under their own power, emitting a slight hum and a bluish electrical glow as they did so. More scientifically, perhaps, this process of "flight" might best be described as "motion under the influence of interaction between electrical and gravitational fields in the direction of the positive electrode." In 1953, Brown succeeded in demonstrating, in his laboratories, the flight of disc-shaped air foils two feet in diameter around a circular course twenty feet in diameter. The process involved tethering these saucer-shaped craft to a central pole by means of a wire through which the necessary D.C. electrical potential was supplied at a rate of fifty thousand volts with a continuous input of fifty watts. The tests produced an observable top speed of an amazing seventeen feet per-second (11.5 miles per hour). >> The EHD Saucer or the ARDA Flying wing use the geometry of the device like the airfoil of a conventional wing. The arcuate electrode increase significantly the effect and this produces an hydrostatic pressure differential in the medium (air or aether) like the "Coanda Effect" which creates the main thrust. T.T. Brown has tested differents shaped electrodes and he has found that a tri-actuate electrode was the best one. You may look at : http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/ehdfscs.htm and also at : http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/ehdefscs.htm The medium speed along the electrode is also very important this is done by the high voltage used. In 1956 the Brown's discs had attained speeds of several hundred miles per hour when charged to several hundred kilovolts...at 50kv the speeds was 12 miles per hours. The geometrical effect of the shaped electrode and also the use of a non-uniform strong E-Field are the keys of a successful EHD device. Best Regards, Jean-Louis Naudin From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 23:25:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA30615; Mon, 22 May 2000 23:24:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 23:24:53 -0700 Message-ID: <20000523062421.84388.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [63.20.184.215] From: "Timothy Flytch" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: ELG-Hat: A very interesting experiments in electrogravitics. Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 23:24:20 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"bjuvR.0.GU7.rGYAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15251 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Ok, I just have to jump in on this... It seems to me that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction... Right??? ... So how large can this reactionary movement be??? Lust just say that the disk is one foot in diameter... and to get lift we are assuming that the air it is moving down is close by.... Can it not be farther away ... Say ten feet or even thirty feet??? And if not then, why??? Why must this thrust take place close to the disk??? I mean... If I invented a machine that directly moved, one pound of air, one foot, in a room a mile away... were would the counter force of one foot pound be felt??? Still dose not sound quite right... I'll try again... lets say that I have a little black box with a switch on it that when you flip the switch will lift the car outside up off the ground... Would the little black box suddenly be heavier by the weight of the car??? My point being that if you place a device in a vacuum chamber or plastic bag you will only interfere with the "ionic wind" if the majority of the field is also contained within the vacuum chamber or bag... This could be rather hard to do if the field is a hundred feet across... Timothy... >From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) >Rick writes: > >Extremely good vacuums are rather expensive and involved. But high > >vacuum might not be needed though to get BB to peek out from behind > >ionic effects; see my other post. > > > >- Rick Monteverde > >Honolulu, HI > >The device as built by Jean-Louis could be greatly miniaturized, enough to >fit into someone's existing vacuum set-up, and still be large enough to >show >the effect while posing no great problem to the builder insofar as >requiring >any expensive construction techniques. There are plenty of labs around >with >hard vac capability of varying size, just not any that will work with the >size that he has presently made. A poll of some different labs would come >up with a maximum allowable size that could be tested by any of them. >Other >issues, such as what materials of construction would be able to withstand >hard vac conditions would have to be considered in the construction, but >that is easily doable these days, as well. Myself, I'm quite happy to see >what he has accomplished just in air, with the $30 worth of materials that >he has used. It's quite remarkable. > >Thank you again Jean-Louis, for showing us all how to do this stuff! I've >really enjoyed reading your page, and I've learned a lot. > >Knuke >Michael T. Huffman >Huffman Technology Company >1121 Dustin Drive >The Villages, Florida 32159 >(352)259-1276 >knuke@LCIA.COM >http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 23:49:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA02934; Mon, 22 May 2000 23:48:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 23:48:47 -0700 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: [FG]: ELG-Hat: A very interesting experiments in electrogravitics. Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 03:02:31 -0400 Message-ID: <20000523070231390.AAA302@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"7VpbP1.0.fj.CdYAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15252 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tim writes: >My point being that if you place a device in a vacuum chamber or plastic bag >you will only interfere with the "ionic wind" if the majority of the field >is also contained within the vacuum chamber or bag... This could be rather >hard to do if the field is a hundred feet across... > >Timothy... You are right, if the field is a hundred feet across, but the vacuum tests are just to separate any true antigravity effect from an ionic wind effect. If there is no effect inside a vacuum chamber then the effect is totally ionic as we have seen it in air. That is still very useful here on Earth, as Jean-Louis has already demonstrated with his gliders in air, but it would not work in space, unless there were a true antigravity effect. As Jean-Louis has pointed out with the Brown letters, this has already been tested by Brown, and there does seem to be an effect even in a vacuum. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 23 00:41:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA11378; Tue, 23 May 2000 00:40:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 00:40:39 -0700 From: JNaudin509@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 03:40:30 EDT To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 30 Resent-Message-ID: <"g-al8.0.dn2.tNZAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15253 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: ELG-HAT Air bag test Dear All, The Frolov's ELG-Hat has also been tested successfully in a closed air bag... see at : http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/elghatv1.htm Best Regards Jean-Louis Naudin From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 23 00:50:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA13924; Tue, 23 May 2000 00:50:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 00:50:02 -0700 X-Sender: harti@mail.harti.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 2 (High) To: jlnlabs@egroups.com From: harti@harti.com (Stefan Hartmann) Cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com Message-Id: Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 09:49:52 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id AAA13894 Resent-Message-ID: <"BPYDi.0.KP3.gWZAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15254 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Real good evidence of H2 the only fuel ! Well, Dingle is using High voltage as Stanley Meyer and his circuit is yet unknown to me, so I can´t comment on the efficiency of his design.... BUT: In the tape you can see, that at one point he pulls out the H2 hose from the reactor unit when the motor runs and the motor comes immediately to a stop.. !! This makes fully sense and it shows me, that he really runs the motor with H2 and O2 from his reactor ! and that it is not faked somehow. Unfortunately you can not hear this so good on the encoded ASF, cause the motor sound is a bit distorted, so it sounds not much like a motor in the 16 Kbits/sec Windows Media Audio codec small datarate, but now as I have pointed this out, have a look again. The other guy just started the motor a few seconds ago and then Dingle pulls out the H2 hose plug and the motor comes to a stillstand ! It is in the movie: waterc01.asf Also he cools the water via the motor fan which you can see in movie waterc02.asf and that explains to me, that the water has to be cold for a better electrolysis ! I hope we can convince Dingle, that it is time to release the plans for his High Voltage driver publically.... This way, it can´t be suppressed anymore and he could probably better make money by selling a book about his invention... It is a wonder, the Oil barons did not yet stop him..... I hope he will not be bought out by big oil companies... This is a revolution ! Imagine having your car modified to run on water for about 500 US$ or less ! Would you go for it ? Probably immediately ! Regards, Stefan. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 23 01:37:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA23567; Tue, 23 May 2000 01:36:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 01:36:34 -0700 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: RE: [FG]: ELG-Hat: A very interesting experiments inelectrogravitics. Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 04:50:20 -0400 Message-ID: <20000523085020859.AAA340@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"CvIRV1.0.6m5.HCaAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15255 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sparky writes: >I'm not sure I'd want to be in a hang glider >or otherwise exposed to the active surface >of the wing. It seems likely you'd be breathing >N oxides and O3 in abundance. > >It would be like flying in a bug zapper... > >On the other hand, if you could control the >ion species, think of the benefits of being >completely immersed in a cloud of negative >ions. > >I seem to remember seeing posted some information >about ion motors where this problem was dealt >with; was it TT Brown? Help me out here Brown >worshippers :^) > >K. I'm not a worshipper, but Mark Goldes wrote not too long ago that a protege of Brown's, Jimmy Lee of the Zenion Corporation had a number of patents that addressed this concern. I haven't had the time to chase these down, but some of the ionizers are being marketed by the Sharper Image. A simple patent search should bring them up, I would think. I would be interested in seeing how he handled this myself. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 23 01:56:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA26795; Tue, 23 May 2000 01:56:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 01:56:05 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000523062421.84388.qmail@hotmail.com> References: <20000523062421.84388.qmail@hotmail.com> Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 22:55:54 -1000 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: [FG]: ELG-Hat: A very interesting experiments in electrogravitics. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"FO_5t.0.aY6.aUaAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15256 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com At 11:24 PM -0700 5/22/00, Timothy Flytch wrote: >My point being that if you place a device in a vacuum chamber or >plastic bag you will only interfere with the "ionic wind" if the >majority of the field is also contained within the vacuum chamber >or bag... This could be rather hard to do if the field is a hundred >feet across... Yes. To reduce the effects of fields on nearby objects (electrostatic induction), the electrodes have to be surrounded by a symmetrical chamber. In some tests I read about, even this was done but still the tests were supposedly inconclusive. I believe these were the ones done by SAIC, but it might have been in the French tests Brown mentioned. The cumulative effect of tiny forces summed over a large area can be significant, so even an imperceptible flow of air in a large volume would have a noticible reaction force on a balanced electrode. This sure isn't a trivial experiment! - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 23 01:59:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA27238; Tue, 23 May 2000 01:58:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 01:58:49 -0700 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: [FG]: Re: Source for Platinum for catalyst Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 05:12:33 -0400 Message-ID: <20000523091233609.AAA359@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"MV_KF.0.Vf6.6XaAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15257 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Chris writes: > I know someone who really screwed up someone else's engine by uranating >in their gas tank. Don't do it. I know this warning is probably too late for many of us, but for those of us who hesitated or had the good sense to test this out first on the boss's new BMW, thanks for the info. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 23 06:08:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA09573; Tue, 23 May 2000 06:07:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 06:07:33 -0700 Message-ID: <392A8329.EA4A3EE9@csrlink.net> Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 09:10:01 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: Re: The next Evolvation (pokemon) of the H2O power source References: <3926E7B5.1BAB0668@csrlink.net> <39279058.96D4079D@csrlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"f9KdY.0.QL2.KAeAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15258 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi Robin, Apparently I am not making myself very clear somehow. I will try again.---> Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > You appear to be somewhat confused about voltage and current. The current > coming out of any cell has be the same as the current going in Ok, right,right, I always did screw up which was which but I MEAN that the amperage stayed level across 5 cells at 12v and beyond that number both the voltage AND amperage dropped. They were wired like this: Pos ---_---_---_---_---_-- Neg. If you measured the cells at the input and output of each cell the voltage dropped by about 2v per cell. > (which you > measure with a current meter in series with the cell on both sides). Right, that's what I did. > > If all your cells were connected in parallel iso in series, and you measured > the current in the wrong place, then it would appear to drop as you move > from one cell to the next. No they were in series. And I measured it right. > > If all the cells were connected in series, then the current should be the > same everywhere in the circuit. > [snip] > > It is free in the sense that you only have to build the pressure once but not > >free in the sense that it costs you gasses to initially build it. > > You seem to have forgotten that as soon as the valve is opened to allow > steam into the turbine, the pressure will drop. No I didn't forget that. I was trying to explain that if you build pressure to a certain level BEFORE you let ANY steam out and then put back in exactly what you are releasing under pressure (mass generated by combustion = mass released to turbine under pressure) > So it's not free at all. No, it isn't, you have to spend some energy to build the pressure and more to maintain it BUT, once you create the pressure, you don't have to put in more than you are releasing on a continuous basis to maintain the pressure. The pressure is what really multiplies the amount of work that you can do per quantity of steam. The point is that, like a dam, once you invest ONCE in building the pressure, simply by burning as much fuel as you are releasing in steam you get the benefit of that pressure on an ongoing basis. > It > has to be maintained by continually burning H2/O2 mixture releasing chemical > energy. Right. Robin, you seem pretty bright.Imagine this. Now take that closed boiler that I described and fill it with water. Have a way to get more water into it as you use it (maybe a little hydraulic pump) and burn the H2 and O2 inside the boiler, underwater.... Now you can create way more steam (at whatever pressure you want) because the H2 and O2 are burning at 2800 degrees centigrade and 100% of that heat energy is given directly to the water in the boiler. No losses! The only losses that you would encounter here are whatever you lose through the skin of the boiler. If you insulated it really well you could limit those to a great degree so you could get maybe 97% of the heat energy that you are putting into it retained. So, in a nutshell, what I am trying to say is that you are putting a specific amount of energy into the boiler. 135 Kcal of heat energy per mole of H2. Actually 2H2 because H2 is only 68 Kcal but to get an O2 out of it you need 2H2O----> 2H2 + O2 Or, 62,000 BTU per pound of H2 or per nine pounds of water. You can multiply the work that this will do in two ways in this type of boiler. 1) Build and maintain a constant pressure in the unit which would only be limited by the strength of your boiler. 2)Burn your fuel right inside the boiler, underwater and vastly increase the amount of steam that is produced. I don't get it. Pretty many people seem interested in water as a fuel but nobody wants to pitch in and be constructive. It's all criticism. Does anybody think that I plan to make any money off of this? Oh come ON. I'm giving it away for christ's sake. Or does that make it less valuable? At any rate I think I am onto something here and I don't have the time or the money to actually take it any further than this so I had hoped that maybe someone else would. Oh well. MJ > > [snip] > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 23 09:29:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA21231; Tue, 23 May 2000 09:28:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 09:28:15 -0700 MR-Received: by mta EUROPA; Relayed; Tue, 23 May 2000 12:26:46 -0400 (EDT) MR-Received: by mta GOSIP; Relayed; Tue, 23 May 2000 11:54:02 -0400 (EDT) Alternate-recipient: prohibited Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 11:57:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 Subject: Re: [FG]: ELG-Hat: A very interesting experiments inelectrogr In-reply-to: <20000523085020859.AAA340%mail.lcia.com@lizard> To: freenrg-l Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Posting-date: Tue, 23 May 2000 12:27:00 -0400 (EDT) Importance: normal Priority: normal UA-content-id: E2701ZYMAHSK0M X400-MTS-identifier: [;64622132500002/4751546@ODNVMS] A1-type: MAIL Hop-count: 2 Resent-Message-ID: <"_1dI03.0.eB5.U6hAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15259 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Knuke, I just bought one of Jimmy Lee's ionizers from the Sharper Image. I got it on one of their auctions, saved about a hundred bucks. Since these things ionize the air in the room, and people aren't falling over dead so I guess they are safe. I would think long term studies of some kind would have been done by now. It is really amazing the amount of airflow this thing creates without any moving parts. It's not quiet, it's silent. You could probably put a couple of these on a spindle pointing in opposite directions and watch it start spinning. It is not as strong as I had hoped it would be, but then it has been optimized for air cleaning not thrust. I am thinking of buying an extra one just to tear apart and see how it works. Maybe I can re-optimize it for thrust and get the weight of the devise down. Something else I want to try is, supposedly Jimmy Lee has done some work on improving the efficiency of gas engines by ionizing the air going in. I could channel the air from one of these things to feed into the air intake of an engine and see what happens. Supposedly he has had good success, but runs into the problem of the valves getting too hot. If so, I am going to look into the availability of more heat resistant valves. Perhaps high performance valves. I can also look into a feedback system to reduce the ionization as heat develops. I could also look into having it turn on just when accelerating, since that is when the engine is least efficient and wastes more fuel. Bill webriggs@concentric.net Briggs@XLNsystems.com >I'm not a worshipper, but Mark Goldes wrote not too long ago that a >protege of Brown's, Jimmy Lee of the Zenion Corporation had a number of >patents that addressed this concern. I haven't had the time to chase >these down, but some of the ionizers are being marketed by the Sharper >Image. A simple patent search should bring them up, I would think. I >would be interested in seeing how he handled this myself. >Knuke From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 23 09:52:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA32530; Tue, 23 May 2000 09:51:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 09:51:43 -0700 Message-ID: <005e01bfc4d7$506b8660$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> From: "Sam Garza" To: References: Subject: Re: [FG]: (Info) About the Biefield-Brown effect. Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 12:52:42 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Resent-Message-ID: <"WY4Xf3.0.7y7.TShAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15260 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Jean-Louis Naudin, Have you done anything with the "electric rocket" at http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/caps/capwarp.html ??? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 1:09 AM Subject: [FG]: (Info) About the Biefield-Brown effect. > Dear all, > > You will find some infos about the B.Brown effect below : > > << A "dielectric" is defined as a material which has the unique ability of > absorbing electrical energy or "charge" without ordinarily passing this > energy on to neighboring materials. Some dielectrics are able to absorb > enormous quantities of electrical energy (also referred to as "elastic > stress") without discharging, providing that the energy is fed into the > dielectric slowly and at low potential. Still others can be charged at > extremely high potential at a rate equal to several thousand times each > second. Townsend Brown concerned himself principally with this latter type. > Using just such a dielectric, Brown constructed disc (or saucer) shaped > condensers, and, by applying various amounts of high voltage direct current, > witnessed the Biefeld-Brown effect in action. With the proper construction > and electrical potential (in the kilovolt range) the disc-shaped "airfoils" > were made to fly under their own power, emitting a slight hum and a bluish > electrical glow as they did so. More scientifically, perhaps, this process of > "flight" might best be described as "motion under the influence of > interaction between electrical and gravitational fields in the direction of > the positive electrode." > In 1953, Brown succeeded in demonstrating, in his laboratories, the flight of > disc-shaped air foils two feet in diameter around a circular course twenty > feet in diameter. The process involved tethering these saucer-shaped craft to > a central pole by means of a wire through which the necessary D.C. electrical > potential was supplied at a rate of fifty thousand volts with a continuous > input of fifty watts. The tests produced an observable top speed of an > amazing seventeen feet per-second (11.5 miles per hour). >> > > The EHD Saucer or the ARDA Flying wing use the geometry of the device like > the airfoil of a conventional wing. The arcuate electrode increase > significantly the effect and this produces an hydrostatic pressure > differential in the medium (air or aether) like the "Coanda Effect" which > creates the main thrust. T.T. Brown has tested differents shaped electrodes > and he has found that a tri-actuate electrode was the best one. > > You may look at : http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/ehdfscs.htm > and also at : http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/ehdefscs.htm > > The medium speed along the electrode is also very important this is done by > the high voltage used. In 1956 the Brown's discs had attained speeds of > several hundred miles per hour when charged to several hundred kilovolts...at > 50kv the speeds was 12 miles per hours. > > The geometrical effect of the shaped electrode and also the use of a > non-uniform strong E-Field are the keys of a successful EHD device. > > Best Regards, > > Jean-Louis Naudin > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 23 12:14:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA31262; Tue, 23 May 2000 12:13:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 12:13:03 -0700 Message-ID: <002001bfc4eb$11165c60$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> From: "Sam Garza" To: References: Subject: Re: [FG]: ELG-Hat: A very interesting experiments inelectrogr Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 15:14:06 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Resent-Message-ID: <"QfSU4.0.Ne7._WjAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15261 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Bill, You could also inject water to reduce the temperature while increasing power because it expands 1700 times changing from water to steam and it absorbs 550 calories of heat/gram of water. Use distilled water so as not to get mineral deposits. Let us know how it turns out if you do it. I am presently hot on another project. Sam Garza ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 To: freenrg-l Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 11:57 AM Subject: Re: [FG]: ELG-Hat: A very interesting experiments inelectrogr > Knuke, > > I just bought one of Jimmy Lee's ionizers from the Sharper Image. I got it > on one of their auctions, saved about a hundred bucks. > > Since these things ionize the air in the room, and people aren't falling > over dead so I guess they are safe. I would think long term studies of > some kind would have been done by now. > > It is really amazing the amount of airflow this thing creates without any > moving parts. It's not quiet, it's silent. You could probably put a > couple of these on a spindle pointing in opposite directions and watch it > start spinning. > > It is not as strong as I had hoped it would be, but then it has been > optimized for air cleaning not thrust. > > I am thinking of buying an extra one just to tear apart and see how it > works. Maybe I can re-optimize it for thrust and get the weight of the > devise down. > > Something else I want to try is, supposedly Jimmy Lee has done some work on > improving the efficiency of gas engines by ionizing the air going in. I > could channel the air from one of these things to feed into the air intake > of an engine and see what happens. > > Supposedly he has had good success, but runs into the problem of the valves > getting too hot. If so, I am going to look into the availability of more > heat resistant valves. Perhaps high performance valves. I can also look > into a feedback system to reduce the ionization as heat develops. I could > also look into having it turn on just when accelerating, since that is when > the engine is least efficient and wastes more fuel. > > Bill > webriggs@concentric.net > Briggs@XLNsystems.com > > >I'm not a worshipper, but Mark Goldes wrote not too long ago that a > >protege of Brown's, Jimmy Lee of the Zenion Corporation had a number of > >patents that addressed this concern. I haven't had the time to chase > >these down, but some of the ionizers are being marketed by the Sharper > >Image. A simple patent search should bring them up, I would think. I > >would be interested in seeing how he handled this myself. > > >Knuke > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 23 12:15:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA00498; Tue, 23 May 2000 12:14:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 12:14:45 -0700 From: JNaudin509@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 15:13:55 EDT Subject: Re: [FG]: (Info) About the Biefield-Brown effect. To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA00371 Resent-Message-ID: <"f7G9S1.0.I7.aYjAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15262 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Dans un courrier daté du 23/05/00 18:52:28 Paris, Madrid (heure d'été), sgarza@americanengr.com a écrit : > Jean-Louis Naudin, > Have you done anything with the "electric rocket" at > http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/caps/capwarp.html ??? Not yet... From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 23 12:52:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA20259; Tue, 23 May 2000 12:51:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 12:51:40 -0700 From: HLafonte@aol.com Message-ID: <1e.59f9bae.265c3afa@aol.com> Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 15:50:18 EDT To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, energy21@listbot.com, jlnlabs@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_1e.59f9bae.265c3afa_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 102 Resent-Message-ID: <"TND9Z3.0.Gy4.B5kAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15263 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Better views of Newman spinoff --part1_1e.59f9bae.265c3afa_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit See attached --part1_1e.59f9bae.265c3afa_boundary Content-Type: image/gif; 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HhqRd1zdeadrbh40c27f1o9z7+79O/jwPVuLXsw3eWTa26VSr577OnbQ2deLr2//Pv78wltD l+48e3/N3ZYQefCd5198rqn1H3r6OfgghBFK+JVydDXWkYWcgbRcQ8txOBmHFX74UWdSKafZ iCSeiCFtKU42IYwxyjgjjTXaeCOOOeq4ZCOPPfr4I5BBCjkkkUUaeSSSSSq5JJNNOvkklFFK OSWVVVp5JZZZarkll116+SWYYYo5JpllmnkmmmmquSabbbr5JpxxyjknnXXaeSeeeeq5J599 +vknoIEKOiihhRp6KKKGBgQAOw== --part1_1e.59f9bae.265c3afa_boundary-- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 23 14:37:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA05910; Tue, 23 May 2000 14:32:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 14:32:13 -0700 From: HLafonte@aol.com Message-ID: <30.57ef791.265c52ba@aol.com> Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 17:31:38 EDT To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, energy21@listbot.com, jlnlabs@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 102 Resent-Message-ID: <"leGSo2.0.3S1.TZlAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15264 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Anyone on lists located in Philippines? Is anyone on the different lists located in the Philippines? Thanks, Butch LaFonte From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 23 14:57:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA15902; Tue, 23 May 2000 14:56:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 14:56:12 -0700 Message-ID: <002901bfc501$e0018b60$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> From: "Sam Garza" To: References: <54.428249b.26594b31@aol.com> Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 17:57:22 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Resent-Message-ID: <"bgVJ51.0.Au3.yvlAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15265 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Re: gasoline idea... I have inserted a comment inline in response to Russ Rosser ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Alex P ; Alik S ; ; ; ; Charlie Hodgson ; Cliff Harris ; Dante Chierico ; ; E. Adams ; ; ; ; Geraldine Clayton ; Glenville Sawyer ; David House ; ; ; Jorg D. Ostrowski ; ; Jim Ketchum ; ; ; Michael T Huffman ; Libbey,David G. ; Dave Turcotte ; Scott wrote: > > <> > > Was that <>? He told me the same. > > << He concluded that most people who develop a carb > don't know what it's actually doing so they don't know to > add water and set themselves up for a fall. The EPA adds > and additive to the gas which coats the iron that their hot > box is made of and without the catalist ( excuse spelling ) > the thing quits working. ( Without the cracking, the fuel > recondenses during the compression stroke. ) > > My thoughts to build a successful unit are: > > Use electronics and servo valves to regulate the operation. > Use two chambers, both heated, the first to evaporate the > fuel and collect the additive coatings and the second > where water vapor is added and replaceable iron chunks > ( catalist ) to insure proper cracking.>> > > Sounds right. Bruce has several devices that can be used conjunctively, > totalling up to appreciable mileage increases, but he says serious investment > $ is needed to perfect the 'cracking' system. > > To me, 2 things are interesting... > > ** WRT the best use of gasoline: A Coleman lantern vaporizes all gasoline > components completely with *heat*, because the process occurs at *atmospheric > pressure*. A Telsa turbine (cheap & easily constructed...TEBA/Tesla Engine > Builders Assn.)--which needs no compression stroke, only gas expansion--might > therefore represent a tenable substitute for reciprocating engines. Sam > Garza <> claims to have experience incorporating the > Tesla tubine into a novel conveyance; he might be able to advise us about > retrofitting conventional cars. I have not as yet put a Tesla Turbine in my Aircycle. I am waiting for production units out of Frank Germano and Co. It is nearing completion. Sam Garza > > ** WRT the best use of existing engines: There's word of a new *water > electrolysis* unit to replace or at least assist existing fuel induction > systems. Contact info follows. Let me know if you uncover anything > promising. > > ----------------------------- > > Water Car inventor Dan Dingle´s Manager: > > *** > Dr.Ernesto S. Luis > *** > > *** > Industrial Technology Development Institute > *** > > *** > Development Science > *** > > *** > Bicutan Science Complex > *** > > *** > Taguig, Metro Manila, Philippines > *** > > *** > Fax 00632 - 837 3167 / 837 0032 > *** > > *** > Tel. - 837 2071 > ------------------------------------ > < > The movie is here: > http://mars.spaceports.com/~over/movies/ > > It is called waterc02.asf. > > It is better to use NetVampire or GetRight to > download it to avoid broken downloads > at this big file size. > > It is about 10 Mbytes big and has a screen > size of 320x240 and runs with 25 frames/sec > already very good on a Pentium1 120 Mhz machine > in double size mode 640x480 (ALT + 3) or in > FullScreen mode ( press: ALT + ENTER). > > Also if it plays not smooth on lower end PCs, > just go to File/Properties/MPEG-4 Decompressor > and set the CPU quality to ZERO ! > This will help to speed up the decoding ! > > You need to have installed the new Mediaplayer 6.4 > from Microsoft, which you can get for free > at: > http://www.microsoft.com/windowsmedia > There is also a version for MAC users there.>> > > --------------------------------- > > NM, Russ Rosser > > UNIR2B1NM@aol.com ('You & I are to be one in Him') > > H) 256-546-5945 > C).256-490-4158 > > c/o 304 Old Camp Rd. > Gadsden AL 35904 > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 23 15:38:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA02090; Tue, 23 May 2000 15:37:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 15:37:22 -0700 Message-ID: <392B0751.D4A98AFA@harti.com> Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 00:33:53 +0200 From: Stefan Hartmann Organization: Hartmann Multimedia Service X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [de]C-CCK-MCD QXW03200 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, HLafonte@aol.com Subject: Re: [FG]: Water car, water only fuel on board? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FASYl2.0.ZW.XWmAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15266 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Yes, pure H2O powered car ! No gasoline used there ! HLafonte@aol.com schrieb: > > Stefan, > This man with the water car, is he saying that the car engine runs on the > gases from electrolysis of water, then the engine also supplies electrical > energy back to the electrolysis process to produce more of the gases, with > power left over to also move the car? Does he use any energy source other > than the water to power the electrolysis process? Is water the only fuel on > board? > Thanks, > Butch -- Best regards, Stefan Hartmann. -- Hartmann Multimedia Service, Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498 email: harti@harti.com info@ccard.net http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB ! From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 23 20:00:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA06412; Tue, 23 May 2000 20:00:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 20:00:08 -0700 Message-ID: <20000524025934.52196.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [63.27.227.7] From: "Timothy Flytch" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: Re: gasoline idea... Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 19:59:34 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"CDefY2.0.0a1.uMqAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15267 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com >From: "Sam Garza" >I have not as yet put a Tesla Turbine in my Aircycle. I am waiting for >production units out of Frank Germano and Co. >It is nearing completion. >Sam Garza > Please do tell more Sam... I have not heard about this??? Any ideas as to when??? Timothy... ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 23 21:31:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA08870; Tue, 23 May 2000 21:30:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 21:30:15 -0700 From: dtmiller@midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: ELG-Hat: A very interesting experiments in electrogravitics. Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 04:30:34 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Reply-To: dtmiller@midiowa.net Message-ID: <392b07c4.10417028@mail.midiowa.net> References: <20000523070231390.AAA302@mail.lcia.com@lizard> In-Reply-To: <20000523070231390.AAA302@mail.lcia.com@lizard> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id VAA08823 Resent-Message-ID: <"FMXEf.0.OA2.MhrAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15268 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi Knuke, On Tue, 23 May 2000 03:02:31 -0400, knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) wrote: >Tim writes: >>My point being that if you place a device in a vacuum chamber or plastic bag >>you will only interfere with the "ionic wind" if the majority of the field >>is also contained within the vacuum chamber or bag... This could be rather >>hard to do if the field is a hundred feet across... >> >>Timothy... > >You are right, if the field is a hundred feet across, but the vacuum tests >are just to separate any true antigravity effect from an ionic wind effect. >If there is no effect inside a vacuum chamber then the effect is totally >ionic as we have seen it in air. That is still very useful here on Earth, >as Jean-Louis has already demonstrated with his gliders in air, but it would >not work in space, unless there were a true antigravity effect. Space isn't empty. It has a few hundred (or hundred-thousand) hydrogen atoms per cc. If the effect is truly ionic, it would work on those atoms just as effectively as in an atmosphere. The 'standard' UFO drive mechanism is ionic -- ionize the gas molecules in the vicinity of the vehicle and sweep magnetostatic fields across the surface of the vehicle to quickly move the ionized gas particles in the desired direction (opposite to the movement desired for the vehicle). This drive mechanism accounts for many of the reported effects produced by UFOs (varying brightness of a plasma-like light, strong magnetic effects, a slight tail at times, interference with radio/TV communications). -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moines (CDP, KB0ZDF) From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 23 23:57:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA27530; Tue, 23 May 2000 23:57:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 23:57:02 -0700 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: [FG]: ELG-Hat: A very interesting experiments in electrogravitics. Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 03:10:41 -0400 Message-ID: <20000524071041125.AAA251@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"D5qQb.0.3k6.-qtAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15269 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Dean writes: >Space isn't empty. It has a few hundred (or hundred-thousand) >hydrogen atoms per cc. If the effect is truly ionic, it would work on >those atoms just as effectively as in an atmosphere. > >The 'standard' UFO drive mechanism is ionic -- ionize the gas >molecules in the vicinity of the vehicle and sweep magnetostatic >fields across the surface of the vehicle to quickly move the ionized >gas particles in the desired direction (opposite to the movement >desired for the vehicle). This drive mechanism accounts for many of >the reported effects produced by UFOs (varying brightness of a >plasma-like light, strong magnetic effects, a slight tail at times, >interference with radio/TV communications). > >-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moines (CDP, KB0ZDF) Hi Dean, I think that the classical definition of space requires that it be empty of any elemental gases. It is something that I have certainly questioned, though. In a true hard vacuum chamber, great lengths are taken to cold trap, and remove all the H that is in the chamber with getters, etc. However, it is always found that H manages to find its way back in after a time, and that is why so many experiments require that the pumps be left on during the run. I've expounded on this before to many people and in various groups, that when working with low pressure glass tubes, for example, Hydrogen will get back into to tube after it is sealed off. I rarely see this accounted for in the literature, even though people have assured me that it is. How much H is floating around in space, I don't have any figures, but you are correct that the ionic drive features of this type of device would certainly come into play in the presence of even a very rarified H atmosphere. This is the difficulty of trying to separate the true antigravity effect and the ionic effect, but at least, in a hard vacuum chamber, one can remove as much of the gas as possible, and there should be a method of determining how much weight loss can be assigned to the antigravity effect if it does exist. Irregardless of which effect is the dominant one, the important question for the space folks is "will it work in space?" My thinking is that it would be more beneficial to concentrate on finding a lightweight, low cost power source for the thing, and just finding out by simply flying it out into space. If it bounces when it hits the outer limits of the atmosphere, then you know its just ionic. Right now, Jean-Louis's entire glider looks as if it could be constructed for under $1000, which is pretty small potatoes. As space research goes, that is a pretty cheap vehicle, if it works. If the researchers want to spend time and money playing with vac chambers, that is up to them. I would just fly it out and see. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 00:07:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA29792; Wed, 24 May 2000 00:06:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 00:06:50 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: Re: The next Evolvation (pokemon) of the H2O power source Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 17:05:44 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <6cumiss8cur71q09b3tr61dd6au17d14ce@4ax.com> References: <3926E7B5.1BAB0668@csrlink.net> <39279058.96D4079D@csrlink.net> <392A8329.EA4A3EE9@csrlink.net> In-Reply-To: <392A8329.EA4A3EE9@csrlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id AAA29749 Resent-Message-ID: <"Vlbo7.0.JH7.5-tAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15270 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Tue, 23 May 2000 09:10:01 -0400, Mike Johnston wrote: [snip] >The point is that, like a dam, once you invest ONCE in building the pressure, simply by burning >as much fuel as you are releasing in steam you get the benefit of that pressure on an >ongoing basis. [snip] >described and fill it with water. Have a way to get more water into it as you use it >(maybe a little hydraulic pump) and burn the H2 and O2 inside the boiler, >underwater.... Now you can create way more steam (at whatever pressure you want) >because the H2 and O2 are burning at 2800 degrees centigrade and 100% of that heat >energy is given directly to the water in the boiler. No losses! I now oxy-acetylene burns under water, but I'm not sure about oxy-hydrogen. (Actually I've seen this go out under water). >The only losses that >you would encounter here are whatever you lose through the skin of the boiler. If you >insulated it really well you could limit those to a great degree so you could get >maybe 97% of the heat energy that you are putting into it retained. Both of the methods you describe above appear to be efficient methods of operating a boiler. They are however dependant upon a supply of combustible gas, and ignoring electrolysis (as counterproductive in this case), that means fossil fuel based. In order to calculate overall efficiency, you need to include the inefficiencies due to production of that gas. There is one exception, and that is natural gas, which could indeed be burned with air in a pipe, according to the first method above. I believe it is in fact already in use after a fashion, in that modern gas based plants use a gas turbine as a "topping" turbine, to gain an overall efficiency as high as 60%. (Though I don't know exactly how the gas turbine output is processed, i.e. whether passed directly through a steam turbine, or first used to boil water). [snip] > I don't get it. Pretty many people seem interested in water as a fuel but nobody >wants to pitch in and be constructive. It's all criticism. The problem is, that you haven't provided any method of using water as a fuel. All you have done is provide a complex path by which fossil fuels can be used to provide energy. But that isn't necessary. We already have quite straight forward methods of extracting energy from fossil fuels. Furthermore, the inefficiencies in the current system, have more to do with the maximum temperature that can be maintained in the long term, than anything else. I.e. boiler design isn't really the issue, except perhaps in regard to the materials used. [snip] >Does anybody think that I >plan to make any money off of this? Perhaps if you were to actually try selling it, you would come to understand why people show so little enthusiasm. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 00:08:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA29757; Wed, 24 May 2000 00:08:05 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 00:07:58 -0700 (PDT) From: JNaudin509@aol.com Message-ID: <68.3d64807.265cd9a5@aol.com> Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 03:07:17 EDT To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 30 Resent-Message-ID: <"t6wtZ.0.lG7.E_tAv"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15271 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: ELG-Hat measurements: Thrust Vs Voltage Dear All, I have updated my web site with some interesting datas about the measurement of the electrogravitic thrust Vs voltage. see at : http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/elghatv1.htm Best Regards Jean-Louis Naudin From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 01:42:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA21703; Wed, 24 May 2000 01:42:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 01:42:24 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <68.3d64807.265cd9a5@aol.com> References: <68.3d64807.265cd9a5@aol.com> Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 22:42:15 -1000 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: [FG]: ELG-Hat measurements: Thrust Vs Voltage Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"ZG_E5.0.yI5.lNvAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15272 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Jean-Louis - I like the bag experiment. Is there much difference in apparent thrust between having it in a bag and running it without the bag? Could you run this with smoke, or down feather telltales? Settled smoke or maybe even better yet dry ice fog would give a good picture of air flow around the device, and a sense of how much air is flowing. Thanks, - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI >Dear All, > >I have updated my web site with some interesting datas about the measurement >of the electrogravitic thrust Vs voltage. > >see at : http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/elghatv1.htm > > >Best Regards > >Jean-Louis Naudin From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 03:52:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA11080; Wed, 24 May 2000 03:51:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 03:51:54 -0700 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: [FG]: ELG-Hat: A very interesting experiments inelectrogr Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 07:05:41 -0400 Message-ID: <20000524110541312.AAA273@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"l-UYa3.0.1j2.9HxAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15273 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Bill writes: >Knuke, > >I just bought one of Jimmy Lee's ionizers from the Sharper Image. I got it >on one of their auctions, saved about a hundred bucks. Yeah, I've always loved that place, but the prices for the really cool stuff are nearly always out of my range. I went into the one in Orlando with a couple of friends of mine that were visiting from Europe not too long ago. We spent so much time in the vibrating chairs that the sales people started getting nervous. >Since these things ionize the air in the room, and people aren't falling >over dead so I guess they are safe. I would think long term studies of >some kind would have been done by now. In this country? You must be joking!;) Cell phones, the early x-ray machines that they used in upscale shoestores, the early microwave ovens, the early ultrasonic imaging and dental equipment are just a few things that come to mind that hit the market running long before anyone thought of doing any testing. A friend of told me that he went to his doctor with a plantar wart on his heel when he was a kid, and the doctor treated it with Polonium or something like that. He said the wart did go away in three days... Anyway, I do hope that these devices are safe that you are using. I would think that you would be able to smell the ozone if they were really bad. >It is really amazing the amount of airflow this thing creates without any >moving parts. It's not quiet, it's silent. You could probably put a >couple of these on a spindle pointing in opposite directions and watch it >start spinning. > >It is not as strong as I had hoped it would be, but then it has been >optimized for air cleaning not thrust. > >I am thinking of buying an extra one just to tear apart and see how it >works. Maybe I can re-optimize it for thrust and get the weight of the >devise down. Yes, these are good ideas. Another idea would be to take it apart and blow some smoke over the active part to see if any vortices are forming. If you can put two of them together, and mesh the vortices, you may create enough turbulence to knock off electrons in air, and run them down a wire to a load. I would be careful about this, though, and place them only close enough together to do the electron trick, but not enough to cause arcing. The Roth article states that the speed over their panels is 400m/sec, which is around 600mph. I would think that you could knock some electrons loose with that speed. > >Something else I want to try is, supposedly Jimmy Lee has done some work on >improving the efficiency of gas engines by ionizing the air going in. I >could channel the air from one of these things to feed into the air intake >of an engine and see what happens. Again, with care. I would work with lawnmower sized engines for starters, and even then I would sandbag them. When they blow, they blow, if you know what I mean. If there is an effect, you will no doubt have to monkey with the carb to optimize it, so a lot of modern car engines would be difficult to fool with as well. A lawnmower engine carb is still adjustable by people without a PhD in physics. >Supposedly he has had good success, but runs into the problem of the valves >getting too hot. If so, I am going to look into the availability of more >heat resistant valves. Perhaps high performance valves. I can also look >into a feedback system to reduce the ionization as heat develops. I could >also look into having it turn on just when accelerating, since that is when >the engine is least efficient and wastes more fuel. Those are good ideas as well, and Sam mentioned injecting water to cool the engine. I would just go slow and try and set things up so that I could work behind some shield in case the thing decided to come apart. Some temp probes on the head and body might be good early warning indicators while you are in the early stages of experimentation. Good Luck! Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 05:27:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA27383; Wed, 24 May 2000 05:17:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 05:17:08 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <68.3d64807.265cd9a5@aol.com> Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 02:16:58 -1000 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: [FG]: ELG-Hat measurements: Thrust Vs Voltage Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"AMN6A2.0.ih6.3XyAv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15274 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Jean-Louis - Another thing I noticed from looking at the images on your site of the hat is that perhaps there is electrostatic interaction between the HV feed wires along the upright pylon, and the wires along the balance beam including the feed to the hat as well as the hat itself. Does it seem to you that this could have the magnitude to move the beam as far as it does? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 07:44:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA06986; Wed, 24 May 2000 07:43:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 07:43:40 -0700 Message-ID: <392BEAB8.B3F64497@info2000.net> Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 08:44:08 -0600 From: Ted Reply-To: tsleber@info2000.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: ELG-Hat measurements: Thrust Vs Voltage References: <68.3d64807.265cd9a5@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"5ESjo1.0.2j1.Rg-Av"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15275 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Rick, Go for it. Let us know how it comes out. Sincerely, Ted From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 09:21:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA14395; Wed, 24 May 2000 09:20:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 09:20:25 -0700 MR-Received: by mta SOCCER; Relayed; Wed, 24 May 2000 12:19:06 -0400 (EDT) MR-Received: by mta GOSIP; Relayed; Wed, 24 May 2000 11:43:53 -0400 (EDT) Alternate-recipient: prohibited Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:13:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 In-reply-to: <1e.59f9bae.265c3afa@aol.com> To: freenrg-l Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Posting-date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:18:00 -0400 (EDT) Importance: normal Priority: normal UA-content-id: E2709ZYMBHLAY7 X400-MTS-identifier: [;60912142500002/4755160@ODNVMS] A1-type: MAIL Hop-count: 2 Resent-Message-ID: <"wSbqG1.0.kW3.950Bv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15276 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Water as Fuel - Eagle-Research/George Wiseman All, Thought this may be of interest. Bill webriggs@concentric.net Briggs@XLNsystems.com This mailing goes out only to people who have given Eagle-Research their email address. This mailing list is entirely private to Eagle-Research and is never given to anyone else. To see our updated website, visit http://www.eagle-research.com We have recently published our book 'Water as Fuel, Book 1'. We have been floaded with orders for it and the customer appreciation has been high. 'Water as Fuel, Book 1' sets a new standard in Eagle-Research publications. The information is as good as ever and it is now in easy-to-read format. 'Water as Fuel, Book 1' is designed as a 'research assistant' for anyone who wants to learn about the various ways that water has been and is BEING used as a fuel for internal combustion engines. We are doing our best to publish information that has been kept SECRET, in some cases for over 100 years. As you can imagine, anyone who has been making money selling fossil-fuel would not be particularly happy to see this information in your hands, so get it NOW!! For this VIP email list, we are making a special offer. Until June 1/2000, you can order the 'Water as Fuel, Book 1' for the special price of $20 USD and we will pay the postage. After June 1/2000, the regular retail of $22 and full postage charges apply. You can email, FAX or post your postal mailing address and credit card information to: order_room@eagle-research.com FAX: 250-428-8794 Eagle-Research, PO BOX 118, Porthill, Idaho, 83853 or you can place your order on our website order form (has secure option) at: http://www.eagle-research.com/order.html Have Fun :))) George Wiseman President, CEO of Eagle-Research PS Eagle-Research has launched a free NEWSLETTER covering subjects like 'running vehicles on water', 'building home power systems', 'Free Energy Technology', making money promoting alternative solutions (no investment). We do not give out our mailing list, your privacy is assured. If you'd like to be subscribed to the free NEWSLETTER, send an email to: with 'subscribe newsletter' as the subject (do not include the quotes) GW From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 09:24:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA15862; Wed, 24 May 2000 09:23:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 09:23:47 -0700 Message-ID: <392C0125.FC3D3A86@harti.com> Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 18:19:49 +0200 From: Stefan Hartmann Organization: Hartmann Multimedia Service X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [de]C-CCK-MCD QXW03200 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, "jlnlabs@egroups.com" , "ou-builders@egroups.com" , Newman-L Mailing List X-Priority: 2 (High) References: <39270EF3.1020EF42@harti.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"8MZ5s1.0.gt3.J80Bv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15277 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Re:Water powered car movies Robin van Spaandonk schrieb: > > Hi, > > Having now seen all three movies, I must say that I am singularly > unimpressed. The presentation was a complete waste of time and effort. > What was wrong: > 1) No apparent effort was made to prove that gasoline was not being used. Sure, there is just no gasoline tank ! Also you can see, that the motor shuts off immediately when the H2 hose was pulled out of the reactor. This is very convincing ! > E.g. an analysis of the exhaust fumes would be enlightening. Yes, they checked the smell of thge exhaust, pure water ! > 2) No effort was made to show that the vehicle didn't contain hidden > batteries. > 3) Performance parameters weren't clearly specified. > 4) Vague claims were made with little or no proof. The meeting was setup in a hurry and Mr. Czapp did not expect to meet him at all, so we were lucky he taped at all at least 10 minutes of it ! > 5) The video quality was low, and much time was wasted on things which were > completely meaningless. A few well chosen photos would probably have been > more useful. Photos are coming up. Mr. Czapp is a TV technician and he was there, cause he was on vaccation. He is not an engineer and thus he just had a look at it. I Like the footage, cause also people who don´t have much knowledge of engines get a grip what is going on... > 6) The only diagram presented was right at the end of one movie, and the > sound was a mess. Well, the diagramm was from Czapp trying to explain a Stanley Meyer electrolysis cell. > > Suggestion for anyone else doing this: > Don't try to film the entire proceedings when you go to visit. First arrange > with the inventor to do a special video presentation, then film nothing at > all until you have had a chance to examine everything to your own > satisfaction. Then do a trial run presentation. Then check out the result, > with in mind viewers who know nothing, change the presentation where needed, > then do the real thing. Have a microphone close to your own mouth while > filming, and provide a running commentary in clear concise language. > If you are incapable of doing this, take along someone who is capable. I agree, that it could have been done very much better, but we are lucky enough to have this footage at all in this moment ! Stay tuned for a few more photos. Regards, Stefan. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk -- Best regards, Stefan Hartmann. -- Hartmann Multimedia Service, Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498 email: harti@harti.com info@ccard.net http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB ! From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 09:38:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA20984; Wed, 24 May 2000 09:37:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 09:37:28 -0700 Reply-To: "Sparky" From: "Keith Nagel" To: Cc: Subject: RE: [FG]: ELG-Hat measurements: Thrust Vs Voltage Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:35:33 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <68.3d64807.265cd9a5@aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"JzPrb2.0.i75.7L0Bv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15278 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi JLN. Why don't you measure current flowing along the ground wire to the ELG hat? Plot this against your thrust values. I expect you'll see both current and a correlation. I also expect the current to be quite low, and perhaps not altogether DC, so bear this in mind when you make the measurement. K. -----Original Message----- From: JNaudin509@aol.com [mailto:JNaudin509@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 3:07 AM To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: ELG-Hat measurements: Thrust Vs Voltage Dear All, I have updated my web site with some interesting datas about the measurement of the electrogravitic thrust Vs voltage. see at : http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/elghatv1.htm Best Regards Jean-Louis Naudin From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 10:54:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA18159; Wed, 24 May 2000 10:53:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 10:53:56 -0700 Message-ID: <00b901bfc5a9$33a41740$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> From: "Sam Garza" To: References: <39270EF3.1020EF42@harti.com> Subject: Re: [FG]: Re: 2nd Water powered car movie now online ! Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 13:55:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Resent-Message-ID: <"0MW312.0.eR4.pS1Bv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15279 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com I am surprised by these comments. We are lucky to have them. They were quite informative. I still want engineering details of course and I wish I could have heard all that was said, but there is plenty there to whet my curiosity for more info. Thanks Stefan Hartmann ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Sent: Monday, May 22, 2000 12:00 AM Subject: [FG]: Re: 2nd Water powered car movie now online ! > Hi, > > Having now seen all three movies, I must say that I am singularly > unimpressed. The presentation was a complete waste of time and effort. > What was wrong: > 1) No apparent effort was made to prove that gasoline was not being used. > E.g. an analysis of the exhaust fumes would be enlightening. > 2) No effort was made to show that the vehicle didn't contain hidden > batteries. > 3) Performance parameters weren't clearly specified. > 4) Vague claims were made with little or no proof. > 5) The video quality was low, and much time was wasted on things which were > completely meaningless. A few well chosen photos would probably have been > more useful. > 6) The only diagram presented was right at the end of one movie, and the > sound was a mess. > > Suggestion for anyone else doing this: > Don't try to film the entire proceedings when you go to visit. First arrange > with the inventor to do a special video presentation, then film nothing at > all until you have had a chance to examine everything to your own > satisfaction. Then do a trial run presentation. Then check out the result, > with in mind viewers who know nothing, change the presentation where needed, > then do the real thing. Have a microphone close to your own mouth while > filming, and provide a running commentary in clear concise language. > If you are incapable of doing this, take along someone who is capable. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 11:46:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA02677; Wed, 24 May 2000 11:45:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 11:45:58 -0700 Message-ID: <00c601bfc5b0$766af420$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> From: "Sam Garza" To: References: <20000524110541312.AAA273@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Subject: [FG]: ELG-Hat: Roth article? Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 14:47:06 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Resent-Message-ID: <"t2i791.0.af.bD2Bv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15280 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael T Huffman To: Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 7:05 AM Subject: Re: [FG]: ELG-Hat: A very interesting experiments inelectrogr > Bill writes: > >Knuke, > > > >I just bought one of Jimmy Lee's ionizers from the Sharper Image. I got it > >on one of their auctions, saved about a hundred bucks. > > The Roth article states that the speed over their panels is 400m/sec, which > is around 600mph. I would think that you could knock some electrons loose > with that speed. So where can we get some more information on the "Roth article"??? > > Those are good ideas as well, and Sam mentioned injecting water to cool the > engine. I would just go slow and try and set things up so that I could work > behind some shield in case the thing decided to come apart. Some temp > probes on the head and body might be good early warning indicators while you > are in the early stages of experimentation. > > Good Luck! > > Knuke > > Michael T. Huffman > Huffman Technology Company > 1121 Dustin Drive > The Villages, Florida 32159 > (352)259-1276 > knuke@LCIA.COM > http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 11:58:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA06745; Wed, 24 May 2000 11:57:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 11:57:29 -0700 MR-Received: by mta EUROPA; Relayed; Wed, 24 May 2000 14:55:33 -0400 (EDT) MR-Received: by mta GOSIP; Relayed; Wed, 24 May 2000 14:20:20 -0400 (EDT) Alternate-recipient: prohibited Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 14:53:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 Subject: Re: [FG]: ELG-Hat: A very interesting experiments inelectrogr In-reply-to: <20000524110541312.AAA273%mail.lcia.com@lizard> To: freenrg-l Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Posting-date: Wed, 24 May 2000 14:55:00 -0400 (EDT) Importance: normal Priority: normal UA-content-id: E2716ZYMBLBZMC X400-MTS-identifier: [;33554142500002/4755822@ODNVMS] A1-type: MAIL Hop-count: 2 Resent-Message-ID: <"4nG522.0.2f1.MO2Bv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15281 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Knuke, Roth article??? >The Roth article states that the speed over their panels is 400m/sec, which >is around 600mph. I would think that you could knock some electrons loose >with that speed. Bill webriggs@concentric.net Briggs@XLNsystems.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 12:02:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA08927; Wed, 24 May 2000 12:01:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:01:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:00:02 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty Reply-To: William Beaty To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: ELG-HAT Air bag test In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"SmQgW3.0.JB2.zR2Bv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15282 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Tue, 23 May 2000 JNaudin509@aol.com wrote: > Dear All, > > The Frolov's ELG-Hat has also been tested successfully in a closed air bag... > see at : http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/elghatv1.htm That's wonderful news! Other questions which spring into mind: does it create THRUST, or does it reduce weight? If the capacitor is turned upside-down, does the weight increase instead of decrease? Does "pendulum test" succeed? Also, does the force decrease if the foam cylinder is removed, and the gap between the foils is insulated from the air? ( covered with silicone caulk or high-voltage putty?) When adjacent, oppositely-charged electrodes have sharp edges, they will emit streams of ions, even if an insulating barrier is placed between them. Perhaps the foam cylinder forces the ion-flows to follow its surface. It begins to resemble the La Violett B-2 bomber diagrams, with gravitational forces caused by electric currents (ion flows) in the air around the electrodes. The central electrode behaves as the aircraft engine, it emits a stream of charged air which loops around and flows back to the outer electrode. Perhaps you can stack up many "capacitor hats" in layers, and produce a very large force. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 12:13:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA13804; Wed, 24 May 2000 12:13:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:13:19 -0700 Message-ID: <392C28E2.723A2179@harti.com> Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 21:09:22 +0200 From: Stefan Hartmann Organization: Hartmann Multimedia Service X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [de]C-CCK-MCD QXW03200 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "jlnlabs@egroups.com" , "ou-builders@egroups.com" , Free Energy , Newman-L Mailing List X-Priority: 1 (Highest) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ar_Ov.0.WN3.Ed2Bv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15283 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Watercar pictures now online ! Hi All, the Dingle watercar pictures are now online ! http://www.overunity.com/watercar/ There are also 3 GIF circuit diagramms of the Stanles Meyer waterfuel cell process. Here is an interesting statement.... >From "FUEL FROM WATER, Energy Independence with Hydrogen" Author Michael A.Peavey Publisher Merit, Inc., P.O. Box 694 Louisville, KY 40205 Library of Congress Number 88-188956 ISBN 0-945516-04-5 Page 22 " The smallest amount of energy needed to electrolyse one mole of water is 65.3 Wh at 25 degrees Celcius (77 degress F). When the Hydrogen and Oxygen are recombined into water during combustion 79.3 Wh of energy is released. 14 Wh more energy is released in burning Hydrogen and Oxygen than is required to split water. This excess must be absorbed from the surrounding media(environment) in the form of heat during electolysis." And then, "At 25 degrees celcius, for voltages of 1.23 to 1.47 V, the electrolysis reaction ABSORBS HEAT. At over 1.47 V at 25 degrees celcius, the reaction gives off heat." =========================== Regards, Stefan. I hope it will get now much more known and all our cars will be soon converted to water powered. Enjoy ! -- Best regards, Stefan Hartmann. -- Hartmann Multimedia Service, Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498 email: harti@harti.com info@ccard.net http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB ! From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 12:20:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA16868; Wed, 24 May 2000 12:19:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:19:25 -0700 From: JNaudin509@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 15:19:06 EDT Subject: Re: [FG]: ELG-Hat measurements: Thrust Vs Voltage To: sparky@dtech-net.com CC: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA16844 Resent-Message-ID: <"KB4Qi2.0.O74.zi2Bv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15284 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Dans un courrier daté du 24/05/00 18:37:56 Paris, Madrid (heure d'été), sparky@dtech-net.com a écrit : > Why don't you measure current flowing along the ground wire > to the ELG hat? Plot this against your thrust values. > I expect you'll see both current and a correlation. I also expect the > current > to be quite low, and perhaps not altogether DC, so bear this > in mind when you make the measurement. > > K. Good idea, I shall soon also try to measure the current... Regards Jean-Louis Naudin From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 12:24:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA18574; Wed, 24 May 2000 12:23:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:23:37 -0700 From: JNaudin509@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 15:23:10 EDT Subject: Re: [FG]: ELG-Hat: Roth article? To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA18554 Resent-Message-ID: <"cWs_63.0.7Y4.um2Bv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15285 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Dans un courrier daté du 24/05/00 20:46:41 Paris, Madrid (heure d'été), sgarza@americanengr.com a écrit : > So where can we get some more information on the "Roth article"??? > Look at : Boundary Layer Flow Control with a one Atmosphere Uniform Glow Discharge Surface Plasma. AIAA 98-0328, 36th Aerospace Sciences Meeting & Exhibit, Reno, Nevada, pp. 29.- Roth, J. Reece; Sherman, Daniel M.; Wilkinson, Stephen P. (1998) http://techreports.larc.nasa.gov/ltrs/PDF/1998/aiaa/NASA-aiaa-98-0328.pdf - "Steady-State, Glow Discharge Plasma". U. S. Patent #5,387,842, Issued February 7, 1995.- Roth J. R., Tsai P. P. and Liu C. - "One Atmosphere Uniform Glow Discharge Plasma". U. S. Patent #5,414,324, Issued May 9, 1995. - Roth J. R., Tsai P. P., Liu C., Laroussi M. and Spence P. D. - "Method and Apparatus for Glow discharge Plasma Treatment of Polymer Materials at Atmospheric Pressure". U. S. Patent #5,456,972, Issued Oct 10, 1995. - Roth J. R., Tsai P. P., Liu C. and Wadsworth L. C. - "Method and Apparatus for Covering Bodies with A Uniform Glow discharge Plasma and Applications Thereof". U. S. Patent #5,669,583, Issued Sept 23, 1997.- Roth J. R. Regards Jean-Louis Naudin From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 12:28:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA20618; Wed, 24 May 2000 12:28:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:28:03 -0700 From: JNaudin509@aol.com Message-ID: <57.61a25f8.265d871d@aol.com> Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 15:27:25 EDT Subject: Re: [FG]: ELG-Hat: Roth article? To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA20597 Resent-Message-ID: <"mfYNV2.0.325.3r2Bv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15286 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Dans un courrier daté du 24/05/00 20:46:41 Paris, Madrid (heure d'été), sgarza@americanengr.com a écrit : > > So where can we get some more information on the "Roth article"??? > > You may also look at : http://plasma.ee.utk.edu/ - The Industrial Plasma Engineering Group of the UTK Plasma Sciences Laboratory has been supported by NASA Grant NCC 1-223 since October 1, 1995 to develop the applications of a One Atmosphere Uniform Glow Discharge Plasma (OAUGDP) to aerodynamic boundary layer and flow control. These and related applications are described in U. S. Patent 5,669,583, "Method and Apparatus for Covering Bodies with a Uniform Glow Discharge Plasma and Applications Thereof". Wind tunnel measurements for this research were taken in the 7 X 11 inch Low Speed Wind Tunnel of the NASA Langley Research Center's Fluid Modeling and Control Branch, Hampton, VA. Best Regards Jean-Louis Naudin From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 13:02:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA02450; Wed, 24 May 2000 13:01:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 13:01:38 -0700 From: JNaudin509@aol.com Message-ID: <61.3d795b1.265d8ef1@aol.com> Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 16:00:49 EDT To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 30 Resent-Message-ID: <"2cGcw3.0.7c.YK3Bv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15287 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: ELG-Hat - additional datas added Dear All, I have added some additional data in the datasheet about the ELG-Hat, you will find the measured current Vs the voltage and thrust. see at : http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/elghatv1.htm Best Regards Jean-Louis Naudin From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 13:31:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA13435; Wed, 24 May 2000 13:30:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 13:30:08 -0700 Reply-To: "Sparky" From: "Keith Nagel" To: Cc: Subject: RE: [FG]: ELG-Hat - additional datas added Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 16:28:41 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <61.3d795b1.265d8ef1@aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"PgIPP3.0.lH3.Fl3Bv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15288 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Good job there, JLN. Now, I gather from this that the current as measured is the flow of ionic current. You might wish to test this by replacing the hat with an encapsulated parallel plate capacitor of the same value. You should see no change in the balance, and no current. Seeing current would indicate that the rest of the circuit is leaking. I suspect you may have this problem, not from the wires (which should be well insulated) but from the razor blades you are using to support the balance. I can't think of a better way to ionize air than charging a razor blade, eh? K. -----Original Message----- From: JNaudin509@aol.com [mailto:JNaudin509@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 4:01 PM To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: ELG-Hat - additional datas added Dear All, I have added some additional data in the datasheet about the ELG-Hat, you will find the measured current Vs the voltage and thrust. see at : http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/elghatv1.htm Best Regards Jean-Louis Naudin From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 13:57:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA23372; Wed, 24 May 2000 13:55:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 13:55:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 13:53:36 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: sciclub-list@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <000701bfc430$a001a580$c13dccc2@gaidid> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"BqN4L.0.1j5.s64Bv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15289 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: cheap hi-voltage, $4.50 All Electronics and American Science/Surplus currently have an "ionizer" module: 120VAC input and 7.5KV AC output, $4.50 each (from All.) From the looks of it, it probably has a series current limiter on the output. If so, it's an electrostatic source, and would be fairly safe for kids. Since it's an ion generator, it might even have DC output, despite what the catalog description says. But even if its output is AC, that's a very good price for a HV power supply. Put a microwave oven rectifier in series with the output, and use it for all sorts of "static electricity" experiments... "Ionizer" http://www.allelectronics.com/online-store/scstore/p-SW-750.html All elect. also currently has a very cheap laser pointer: $6.50 ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 14:35:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA04880; Wed, 24 May 2000 14:34:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 14:33:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 14:33:49 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"5UirK.0.2C1.3h4Bv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15290 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: ANOTHER claimed grav-cap success On Wed, 24 May 2000, William Beaty wrote: > The central electrode behaves as the aircraft engine, it emits a stream > of charged air which loops around and flows back to the outer electrode. > > Perhaps you can stack up many "capacitor hats" in layers, and produce a > very large force. If the looping shape of the ion-flow produces electrogravity forces, then perhaps the tin-foil "gravity capacitor" stack relies on this phenomenon. If so, then a ring-shaped foil electrode with no slots might work the same as the slotted electrode used by "S". Also, if alternate layers of waxpaper had no hole, then the ion streams would no longer be symmetric, and they would all flow in the same axial direction. If the gravity capacitor only works because of slight, accidental asymmetry in the layers, then constructing it with intentional asymmetry might vastly increase the force produced. I've received email from another person who has seen large forces (2lbs) with a gravity capacitor stack. He's not on freenrg-l. I'll forward his messages if he's willing. He says that aluminum DOES work, but not as well as tin, and alignment of the edges of the layers is the critical issue. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 15:51:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA04694; Wed, 24 May 2000 15:50:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 15:50:42 -0700 From: tv@juno.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 15:50:06 -0700 Subject: Re: [FG]: ANOTHER claimed grav-cap success Message-ID: <20000524.155030.-432969.0.tv@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 3.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-31 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 Resent-Message-ID: <"yu_IT.0.F91.1p5Bv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15291 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Wed, 24 May 2000 14:33:49 -0700 (PDT) William Beaty writes: > On Wed, 24 May 2000, William Beaty wrote: > Please ask him for pictures. The last gravity cap man went silent of April 1'st. Not a good sign. Tim > I've received email from another person who has seen large forces > (2lbs) > with a gravity capacitor stack. He's not on freenrg-l. I'll > forward his > messages if he's willing. He says that aluminum DOES work, but not > as > well as tin, and alignment of the edges of the layers is the > critical > issue. > > ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) > ))))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST > website > billb@eskimo.com > http://www.amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird > science > Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L > webhead-L > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 17:49:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA22891; Wed, 24 May 2000 17:48:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 17:48:59 -0700 Message-ID: <003b01bfc5e2$117934a0$749b10cf@drosigno> Reply-To: "David Rosignoli" From: "David Rosignoli" To: References: <20000524.155030.-432969.0.tv@juno.com> Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 20:42:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"hLBeJ.0.Sb5.xX7Bv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15292 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Gravity capacitor testing We have almost finished building 1 tin-wax grav-cap device. Unfortunately, the 50V-6kV power supply that we were going to use seems to be dead. However, I took measurements of a much smaller layer grav cap. It was composed of 18 Al foil electrodes, with 17 wax sheet layers (2 wax sheets/layer), but some wax sheets on the ends. The end piece was just some kind of wood/cardboard-like material. The whole thing was sandwiched together with 8 nylon bolts. The capacitance measured using a handheld capacitance meter was 0.027uF. What I found was that the wax paper experienced voltage breakdown somewhere in the range of 500V to 1000V. The punch through was seen on 2 metal electrodes, and 4(?) wax paper electrodes. And, yes, the spark went right through the metal foil. It left a noticeable charring on the wax paper. (BTW, the entire device was hung by nylon from a wood plank. No motion was observed.) The moral here is this: if you are going to use a DC power supply, use a low voltage one, preferably no larger than 300V, to give you ample margin when operating with wax paper. I still have to try the Van de Graaf generator. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 6:50 PM Subject: Re: [FG]: ANOTHER claimed grav-cap success > > > On Wed, 24 May 2000 14:33:49 -0700 (PDT) William Beaty > writes: > > On Wed, 24 May 2000, William Beaty wrote: > > > Please ask him for pictures. The last gravity cap man went > silent of April 1'st. Not a good sign. > > Tim > > > I've received email from another person who has seen large forces > > (2lbs) > > with a gravity capacitor stack. He's not on freenrg-l. I'll > > forward his > > messages if he's willing. He says that aluminum DOES work, but not > > as > > well as tin, and alignment of the edges of the layers is the > > critical > > issue. > > > > ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) > > ))))))))))))))))))))) > > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST > > website > > billb@eskimo.com > > http://www.amasci.com > > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird > > science > > Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L > > webhead-L > > > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 19:34:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA22654; Wed, 24 May 2000 19:33:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 19:33:33 -0700 From: myagent2@home.com Message-ID: <002801bfc5f1$ef5cf4a0$0100a8c0@alsv1.occa.home.com> To: References: Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 19:35:47 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"46t1Y1.0.oX5.y39Bv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15293 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Excitement...Disappointment Hello All, I just received my "John Hutchisen" video from lightworksav.com. Folks, as I started watching the video I was very excited... this excitement gradually became disappointed after watching the footage of the experiments.. They appear to be very simple special effects.. I reviewed the 55 minute tape many times, and I was very unhappy. I've lost a little motivation to explore things like the gravity capacitor and the Hutchisen effect, and electrogravitics... I guess I will cancel my order for all that Tin Foil... Also, I watched a Dennis Lee video, and I got the same feeling. Has anyone seen anything inspiring lately? I could sure use it at this point. Thanks. Tommy PS - ~billb, thanks for all of the work you have put into your website.. it has given me many hours of happiness. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 20:00:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA29009; Wed, 24 May 2000 19:59:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 19:59:33 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: Re:Water powered car movies Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 12:58:45 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <39270EF3.1020EF42@harti.com> <392C0125.FC3D3A86@harti.com> In-Reply-To: <392C0125.FC3D3A86@harti.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA28974 Resent-Message-ID: <"CNfS62.0.457.JS9Bv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15294 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Wed, 24 May 2000 18:19:49 +0200, Stefan Hartmann wrote: [snip] >> 1) No apparent effort was made to prove that gasoline was not being used. > >Sure, there is just no gasoline tank ! But that was not apparent, i.e. didn't show up on the movie. >Also you can see, that the motor shuts off immediately >when the H2 hose was pulled out of the reactor. >This is very convincing ! Only if you make sure the person behind the wheel didn't turn off the ignition. > >> E.g. an analysis of the exhaust fumes would be enlightening. > >Yes, they checked the smell of thge exhaust, pure water ! While the human nose is very sensitive, it's also very subjective. What I had in mind was a proper instrument test, showing percentages of various pollutants present. (e.g. NOx). > >> 2) No effort was made to show that the vehicle didn't contain hidden >> batteries. >> 3) Performance parameters weren't clearly specified. >> 4) Vague claims were made with little or no proof. > >The meeting was setup in a hurry and Mr. Czapp >did not expect to meet him at all, so we were lucky >he taped at all at least 10 minutes of it ! >> completely meaningless. A few well chosen photos would probably have been >> more useful. > >Photos are coming up. Good news! > >Mr. Czapp is a TV technician and he was there, >cause he was on vaccation. He is not an engineer >and thus he just had a look at it. That does put a somewhat different slant on things. Pity though that he didn't take it a little more serious. [snip] >Well, the diagramm was from Czapp trying to explain a Stanley >Meyer electrolysis cell. Is Meyer's work relevant? Was the inventor even asked if this was what he was using? [snip] I realise the tone of my posts on this topic is very negative, but It seems that every video I get to see of cars "running on water", is an amateurish mess, that doesn't even succeed in separating the fakes from the real thing (which I personally consider to be the very first step that needs to be taken). I find it rather disheartening. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 20:33:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA09179; Wed, 24 May 2000 20:33:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 20:33:09 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: ELG-Hat - additional datas added Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:32:18 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <61.3d795b1.265d8ef1@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <61.3d795b1.265d8ef1@aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA09127 Resent-Message-ID: <"RPwxG2.0.7F2.nx9Bv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15295 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Wed, 24 May 2000 16:00:49 EDT, JNaudin509@aol.com wrote: >Dear All, > >I have added some additional data in the datasheet about the ELG-Hat, you >will find the measured current Vs the voltage and thrust. > >see at : http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/elghatv1.htm > >Best Regards > Hi Jean-Louis, What happens when you reverse the voltage? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 22:09:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA09852; Wed, 24 May 2000 22:08:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 22:08:34 -0700 From: JNaudin509@aol.com Message-ID: <15.440b07c.265e0f2b@aol.com> Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 01:07:55 EDT Subject: Re: [FG]: ELG-Hat - additional datas added To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id WAA09800 Resent-Message-ID: <"H8anp1.0.rP2.HLBBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15296 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Dans un courrier daté du 25/05/00 05:33:40 Paris, Madrid (heure d'été), rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au a écrit : > Hi Jean-Louis, > > What happens when you reverse the voltage? > > I have also checked this, of course, the thrust is always upward. Regards Jean-Louis From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 22:34:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA19887; Wed, 24 May 2000 22:34:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 22:34:03 -0700 Message-ID: <392CBAFD.1A2EB67@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 08:32:45 +0300 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,tr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex , freenrg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"GoojY2.0.as4.BjBBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15297 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: New paper from Fran De Aquino (gr-qc/0005107) http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/0005107 Possibility of Control of the Gravitational Mass by means of Extra-Low Frequencies Radiation From: "Fran De Aquino" Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 13:39:29 GMT (31kb) Author: Fran De Aquino (Maranhao State University, Brazil) Comments: 6 pages(2 figures,1 table), PDF According to the weak form of Einstein's general relativity equivalence principle, the gravitational and inertial masses are equivalent. However recent calculations (gr-qc/9910036) have revealed that they are correlated by an adimensional factor, which is equal to one in absence of radiation only. We have built an experimental system to check this unexpected theoretical result. It verifies the effects of the extra-low frequency (ELF) radiation on the gravitational mass of a body. We show that there is a direct correlation between the radiation absorbed by the body and its gravitational mass, independently of the inertial mass. This has fundamental consequences to Unified Field Theory and Quantum Cosmology. Regards, hamdi ucar From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 25 01:43:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA23539; Thu, 25 May 2000 01:42:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 01:42:02 -0700 From: dtmiller@midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: ELG-Hat: A very interesting experiments in electrogravitics. Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 08:42:15 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Reply-To: dtmiller@midiowa.net Message-ID: <392ce589.10633750@mail.midiowa.net> References: <20000524071041125.AAA251@mail.lcia.com@lizard> In-Reply-To: <20000524071041125.AAA251@mail.lcia.com@lizard> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id BAA23501 Resent-Message-ID: <"YKXHC2.0.cl5.PTEBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15298 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi Knuke, On Wed, 24 May 2000 03:10:41 -0400, knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) wrote: >I think that the classical definition of space requires that it be empty of >any elemental gases. It is something that I have certainly questioned, >though. In a true hard vacuum chamber, great lengths are taken to cold >trap, and remove all the H that is in the chamber with getters, etc. >However, it is always found that H manages to find its way back in after a >time, and that is why so many experiments require that the pumps be left on >during the run. I think the classical definition of space changed some time in the early 1900's. We've known about the solar wind (ionized particles from the sun) for about that long. Classical vacuum means absense of any particles, though. Theoretically, H popping up is occurring everywhere, on Earth as well in space. As I understand it, hydrogen molecules appear as a result of the expansion of the universe. We don't recognize (and can't measure) any extra hydrogen showing up in the atmosphere because it's something like one molecule per cubic meter per day (it'll take a LOT of days to get any appreciable amount of H). -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moines (CDP, KB0ZDF) From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 25 02:34:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA29591; Thu, 25 May 2000 02:28:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 02:28:13 -0700 Message-ID: <001601bfc62a$afbba6a0$0100a8c0@earthlink.net> From: "Z" To: References: <002801bfc5f1$ef5cf4a0$0100a8c0@alsv1.occa.home.com> Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 02:22:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"J0r651.0.BE7.j8FBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15299 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Re: Excitement...Disappointment Hey man, Remember that Hutchison got members of Los Alamos labs to come visit him. This is apparently well documented and there is a show they run on The Learning Channel now and then that interviews one of the people from Los Alamos that went out there. I saw that new video, and I doubt I could've gotten a high school teacher to come visit me, let alone someone from Los Alamos. Don't give up. Hutchison found something. The revolution will not be televised (or sold on videotape), it will occur (and is occurring) right before your own eyes. ...Z ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 7:35 PM Subject: [FG]: Excitement...Disappointment > Hello All, > > I just received my "John Hutchisen" video from lightworksav.com. > > Folks, as I started watching the video I was very excited... this excitement > gradually became disappointed after watching the footage of the > experiments.. They appear to be very simple special effects.. I reviewed > the 55 minute tape many times, and I was very unhappy. > > I've lost a little motivation to explore things like the gravity capacitor > and the Hutchisen effect, and electrogravitics... I guess I will cancel my > order for all that Tin Foil... > > Also, I watched a Dennis Lee video, and I got the same feeling. > > Has anyone seen anything inspiring lately? I could sure use it at this > point. > > Thanks. > > Tommy > > > PS - ~billb, thanks for all of the work you have put into your website.. it > has given me many hours of happiness. > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 25 06:48:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA24789; Thu, 25 May 2000 06:48:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 06:48:01 -0700 From: RoConroy@aol.com Message-ID: <9c.4045881.265e88e6@aol.com> Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 09:47:18 EDT To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 10 Resent-Message-ID: <"5_s3e1.0.A36.GyIBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15300 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Zero Point Energy Portal all, I have just uploaded a WEB page which postulates the use of a musical scale based on the geometric structure of the Geops pyramid to initiate a sympathetic harmonic crystal portal which is also based on Nature's basic elemental frequency ratios. The postulates are presently all theory, but the geometry behind the postulates is concrete. The idea of using a crystal as a portal was borrowed from Plato's "Fire Stone". URL: http://www.geocities.com/goldenmeandomes/crystal.html From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 25 07:41:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA16195; Thu, 25 May 2000 07:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 07:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200005251433.e4PEX8L05740@bigbox.plug-in.com.br> From: "Marcelo Puhl" Organization: Computec Ltda To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 11:35:56 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: [FG]: Zero Point Energy Portal Reply-to: mark@plug-in.com.br Priority: normal In-reply-to: <9c.4045881.265e88e6@aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12) Resent-Message-ID: <"J82DK2.0.xy3.gbJBv"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15301 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com > all, > I have just uploaded a WEB page which postulates the use of a musical scale > based on the geometric structure of the Geops pyramid to initiate a sympathetic > harmonic crystal portal which is also based on Nature's basic elemental > frequency ratios. > The postulates are presently all theory, but the geometry behind the > postulates is concrete. The idea of using a crystal as a portal was borrowed > from Plato's "Fire Stone". URL: > http://www.geocities.com/goldenmeandomes/crystal.html > That's interesting. Have you seen the internal dimensions of the Queops pyramid ? It has corridors and chambers that was supposedly used for conduct and amplify some type of energy, according to the studies of Zecharia Sitchin, presented in the book "The Wars of Gods and Men". Marcelo Puhl mark@plug-in.com.br ------------------------------------------- Get paid to surf the WEB ! Ganhe dinheiro enquanto surfa na Internet ! http://alladvantage.com/go.asp?refid=DTJ608 ------------------------------------------- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 25 07:47:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA10942; Thu, 25 May 2000 07:47:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 07:47:04 -0700 Message-ID: <000a01bfc658$425d5da0$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> From: "Sam Garza" To: "David Rosignoli" Cc: References: <20000524.155030.-432969.0.tv@juno.com> <003b01bfc5e2$117934a0$749b10cf@drosigno> Subject: Re: [FG]: Gravity capacitor testing Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 10:48:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Resent-Message-ID: <"erQw6.0.mg2.epJBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15302 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com I am using mylar instead of wax paper and I have only had a television set HV lead to test with which has been to much voltage (told it is between 20-25KV) it zaps through polyethylene between layers like through the air between the layers which then leaves a tunnel between a plate layer and the adjacent poly layers fusing them together. With mylar it still tunnels between layers but it only puts black smoke on the mylar it does not melt it. I should be getting a variable power supply today. I got around the same capacitance about .03uf I will let the list know more as soon as I know more. ----- Original Message ----- From: David Rosignoli To: Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 8:42 PM Subject: [FG]: Gravity capacitor testing > We have almost finished building 1 tin-wax grav-cap device. Unfortunately, > the 50V-6kV power supply that we were going to use seems to be dead. > However, I took measurements of a much smaller layer grav cap. It was > composed of 18 Al foil electrodes, with 17 wax sheet layers (2 wax > sheets/layer), but some wax sheets on the ends. The end piece was just some > kind of wood/cardboard-like material. The whole thing was sandwiched > together with 8 nylon bolts. > > The capacitance measured using a handheld capacitance meter was 0.027uF. > What I found was that the wax paper experienced voltage breakdown somewhere > in the range of 500V to 1000V. The punch through was seen on 2 metal > electrodes, and 4(?) wax paper electrodes. And, yes, the spark went right > through the metal foil. It left a noticeable charring on the wax paper. > (BTW, the entire device was hung by nylon from a wood plank. No motion was > observed.) > > The moral here is this: if you are going to use a DC power supply, use a low > voltage one, preferably no larger than 300V, to give you ample margin when > operating with wax paper. > I still have to try the Van de Graaf generator. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 6:50 PM > Subject: Re: [FG]: ANOTHER claimed grav-cap success > > > > > > > > On Wed, 24 May 2000 14:33:49 -0700 (PDT) William Beaty > > writes: > > > On Wed, 24 May 2000, William Beaty wrote: > > > > > Please ask him for pictures. The last gravity cap man went > > silent of April 1'st. Not a good sign. > > > > Tim > > > > > I've received email from another person who has seen large forces > > > (2lbs) > > > with a gravity capacitor stack. He's not on freenrg-l. I'll > > > forward his > > > messages if he's willing. He says that aluminum DOES work, but not > > > as > > > well as tin, and alignment of the edges of the layers is the > > > critical > > > issue. > > > > > > ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) > > > ))))))))))))))))))))) > > > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST > > > website > > > billb@eskimo.com > > > http://www.amasci.com > > > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird > > > science > > > Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L > > > webhead-L > > > > > > > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 25 08:59:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA03666; Thu, 25 May 2000 08:57:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 08:57:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 08:57:34 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com cc: David Rosignoli Subject: Re: [FG]: Gravity capacitor testing In-Reply-To: <000a01bfc658$425d5da0$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"d-e42.0.xu.2sKBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15303 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Thu, 25 May 2000, Sam Garza wrote: > I am using mylar instead of wax paper and I have only had a television set > HV lead to test with which has been to much voltage (told it is between > 20-25KV) it zaps through polyethylene between layers like through the air > between the layers which then leaves a tunnel between a plate layer and the > adjacent poly layers fusing them together. With mylar it still tunnels > between layers but it only puts black smoke on the mylar it does not melt > it. I should be getting a variable power supply today. A homemade series resistor might work. Get some india ink and draw a line on a strip of paper, let it dry thoroughly, then connect to it by using alligator clipleads. Put it in series with your HV supply and with a current meter, then mess around with it until the current is the same as that from a VandeGraaff machine (like 10uA or 50uA or so.) To adjust the current, move the clipleads around on the paper strip, and make the india ink line thinner if the current is always too high even with the clipleads attached to the ends of the ink strip. If the gravity capacitor is supposed to generate ion flows, then we only want the voltage to rise until we get a corona discharge from the thin edges of the foil. If the current is limited to tens of microamps, then chances are that the voltage will stop rising before the dielectric blows through. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 25 10:12:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA26506; Thu, 25 May 2000 10:11:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 10:11:10 -0700 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: [FG]: Gravity capacitor testing Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:24:51 -0400 Message-ID: <20000525172451531.AAA319@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"2a2Lo1.0.yT6.jwLBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15304 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Billb writes: >If the gravity capacitor is supposed to generate ion flows, then we only >want the voltage to rise until we get a corona discharge from the thin >edges of the foil. If the current is limited to tens of microamps, then >chances are that the voltage will stop rising before the dielectric blows >through. I didn't see how this would have worked until now, but if you are going for an edge corona, then this is probably a Coanda Effect lift, Bill. It is maybe not the most ideal geometry if it is, but it is still interesting. There is still something very important here about gravity itself that can be learned if this behaves like the hat shaped device that Jean-Louis is testing in a vacuum. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 25 10:23:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA29954; Thu, 25 May 2000 10:22:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 10:22:38 -0700 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: [FG]: ELG-Hat: A very interesting experiments in electrogravitics. Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:36:14 -0400 Message-ID: <20000525173614718.AAA307@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"XW6OX2.0.xJ7.T5MBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15305 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com >I think the classical definition of space changed some time in the >early 1900's. We've known about the solar wind (ionized particles >from the sun) for about that long. Classical vacuum means absense of >any particles, though. I should have made that more clear, but you are correct. I meant space as in the theoretical Void or vacuum. The area beyond our atmosphere is full of all kinds of junk. >Theoretically, H popping up is occurring everywhere, on Earth as well >in space. As I understand it, hydrogen molecules appear as a result >of the expansion of the universe. We don't recognize (and can't >measure) any extra hydrogen showing up in the atmosphere because it's >something like one molecule per cubic meter per day (it'll take a LOT >of days to get any appreciable amount of H). I wasn't aware that H was found to be "popping up" everywhere. What I was referring to was the entry of H into extremely low pressure vessels due to leakage. It doesn't take very long either with most materials, and it isn't just limited to H, as we have seen from the He arguments that ensued during the Cold Fusion debates. Both will leak through just about everything eventually. From my own work with vacuum gear, it is impossible to maintain a vac for any significant amount of time without running the pumps constantly. I have noticed, however that there is a threshold pressure gradient where the leakage seems to stop. If you have just a 5" or 7" vac, then it will keep for months without pumps. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 25 11:52:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA26864; Thu, 25 May 2000 11:50:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 11:50:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 11:50:44 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: Gravity capacitor testing In-Reply-To: <392d571f.5a83.0@enter.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"yQHN-2.0.fZ6.IONBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15306 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com > I could feel a cool breeze leaving all around the edges of the device This most recent person says that the device "floats", and that it puts out several lbs of thrust. He also says that he made several earlier versions which failed, and he didn't see any large thrust until he aligned the foil edges exactly. He notes that the interior glows blue in the dark, but there is NO large "electric wind" which could explain the large force. I'm wondering if the ions are the key ingredient rather than the e-fields. If somebody had a working unit, would it fail when placed in a vacuum, or if dunked in transformer oil? Maybe a structured flow of ions creates a strong electrogravity force somehow. Suppose space is full of dark matter. Maybe the grav-cap's flowing ions couple to the dark matter, and it truely is a "jet engine", but the "jet" is made of "ether", and the ion flows are more like the "turbine blades" of the engine. If so, then the TT Brown discoveries could easily be misinterpreted: Brown's devices would barely work at all if in a hard vacuum, yet their thrust while in air wouldn't diminish if we eliminated all the jet-reaction forces by sealing the device within an inflated bag. The "ion wind" would be REQUIRED, yet no ions would need to be expelled. The device could be sealed up, as long as air-filled chambers existed inside, where the ions could circulate. If ion flows are the key, then an electrolyte-based version might work too. Low voltage across water, rather than high voltage across gas, but still use microamps. Somebody sent me a copy of "alternate plans" where the foils are complete rings with no slots, but alternate foils have slightly larger diameter. The edges can never align. Are these bogus? Is edge alignment necessary? Maybe the capacitors work randomly, and if you build several identical copies, some will work and some will not. Since the guts of the capacitors are symmetrical, I still wonder if the forces come from small accidental asymmetries. If so, then INTENTIONAL asymmetries would give consistent success. FOr example, we could make alternate wax layers thicker, so the device looks like +- +- +- instead of +-+-+-+. Or, if ion flows are the key, then eliminate the hole in every other wax layers, so the ion leakage current must flow in one axial direction along the center of the stack. In the plans on my page, each electrode sends ions to both neighbors equally, and maybe the large forces are created by small, accidentalinNequalities. Random success when paired with human egos gives "superstitions." In any frontier science, you get experimenters who latch onto particular recipies for success,yet they flatly contradict the recipies from other researchers! We must AVOID this egotistic "frozen belief" crap, and if the device puts out a force, we should keep in mind that it might NOT be verifying our latest amazing and wonderful idea. Instead, it might be a lucky accident. When we fall in love with our ideas, it prevents us from delving into the physics and discovering what is actually happening. "It is a good morning exercise for a research scientist to discard a pet hypothesis every day before breakfast. It keeps him young." - Konrad Lorenz ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 25 12:01:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA31995; Thu, 25 May 2000 12:01:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 12:01:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 12:00:59 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: Gravity capacitor testing In-Reply-To: <20000525172451531.AAA319@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"F0Awv1.0.pp7.oXNBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15307 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Thu, 25 May 2000, Michael T Huffman wrote: > I didn't see how this would have worked until now, but if you are going for > an edge corona, then this is probably a Coanda Effect lift, Bill. But these people say there is no large jet of electric wind, yet the force is measured in pounds. The whole capacitor lifts itself! > There is still something very important here about gravity itself that can > be learned if this behaves like the hat shaped device that Jean-Louis is > testing in a vacuum. That's what I'm thinking. If there's new science here, then the ELG-hat probably works by the same principles. If the ELG-hat can generate a force while it's sealed inside a bag, then maybe we can build a tall stack of very thin ELG-hats. If each one is light enough to lift itself, then even a 10-KG stack would levitate. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 25 12:08:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA02503; Thu, 25 May 2000 12:07:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 12:07:09 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000526030157.009ac650@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> X-Sender: jwinter@cyllene.uwa.edu.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 03:01:57 +0800 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: John Winterflood Subject: Re: [FG]: Gravity capacitor testing In-Reply-To: References: <392d571f.5a83.0@enter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"9JSYk.0.rc.RdNBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15308 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Bill Beatty wrote: > >This most recent person says that the device "floats", and that it puts >out several lbs of thrust. He also says that he made several earlier >versions which failed, and he didn't see any large thrust until he aligned >the foil edges exactly. He notes that the interior glows blue in the >dark, but there is NO large "electric wind" which could explain the large >force. Does this guy also insist on anonymity? Wouldn't have a ".br" email account (alias De Aquino) by any chance? :-) From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 25 12:15:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA05706; Thu, 25 May 2000 12:14:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 12:14:22 -0700 Message-ID: <003d01bfc67d$8c61e220$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> From: "Sam Garza" To: References: Subject: Re: [FG]: Gravity capacitor testing Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 15:15:10 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Resent-Message-ID: <"PpLLL1.0.1P1.CkNBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15309 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com I have a list of 10 things to test one of which is the pairs or sets of pos and neg: My list is as follows: 1. Area 2. Hole size 3. Voltage 4. Material 5. Plate spacing as in sets as well as distance in a set 6. Size relationship within a set like pos bigger than negative or vice versa 7. Order such as + + - - + - 8. Shape - domed or concave and donuts without tabs and angled tabs both ways counter and same direction on the 2 plates. like pos plates angled cw and neg plates angled ccw. 9. Tangential tabs 10. Internal and external starwasher type tabs in the sets. That ought to give everybody some ideas. Lets crank some questions below inline as well ----- Original Message ----- From: William Beaty To: Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [FG]: Gravity capacitor testing > > > I could feel a cool breeze leaving all around the edges of the device > > This most recent person says that the device "floats", and that it puts > out several lbs of thrust. He also says that he made several earlier > versions which failed, and he didn't see any large thrust until he aligned > the foil edges exactly. When he says edges aligned does he mean just the outer edges or the inner notches as well through all plates or aligned by pos and neg notches? > He notes that the interior glows blue in the > dark, but there is NO large "electric wind" which could explain the large > force. > > I'm wondering if the ions are the key ingredient rather than the e-fields. > If somebody had a working unit, would it fail when placed in a vacuum, or > if dunked in transformer oil? > > Maybe a structured flow of ions creates a strong electrogravity force > somehow. Suppose space is full of dark matter. Maybe the grav-cap's > flowing ions couple to the dark matter, and it truely is a "jet engine", > but the "jet" is made of "ether", and the ion flows are more like the > "turbine blades" of the engine. If so, then the TT Brown discoveries > could easily be misinterpreted: Brown's devices would barely work at all > if in a hard vacuum, yet their thrust while in air wouldn't diminish if we > eliminated all the jet-reaction forces by sealing the device within an > inflated bag. The "ion wind" would be REQUIRED, yet no ions would need to > be expelled. The device could be sealed up, as long as air-filled chambers > existed inside, where the ions could circulate. If ion flows are the key, > then an electrolyte-based version might work too. Low voltage across > water, rather than high voltage across gas, but still use microamps. > > Somebody sent me a copy of "alternate plans" where the foils are complete > rings with no slots, but alternate foils have slightly larger diameter. > The edges can never align. Are these bogus? Is edge alignment necessary? > Maybe the capacitors work randomly, and if you build several identical > copies, some will work and some will not. > > Since the guts of the capacitors are symmetrical, I still wonder if the > forces come from small accidental asymmetries. If so, then INTENTIONAL > asymmetries would give consistent success. FOr example, we could make > alternate wax layers thicker, so the device looks like +- +- +- instead of > +-+-+-+. Or, if ion flows are the key, then eliminate the hole in every > other wax layers, so the ion leakage current must flow in one axial > direction along the center of the stack. In the plans on my page, each > electrode sends ions to both neighbors equally, and maybe the large forces > are created by small, accidentalinNequalities. > > > Random success when paired with human egos gives "superstitions." In any > frontier science, you get experimenters who latch onto particular recipies > for success,yet they flatly contradict the recipies from other > researchers! We must AVOID this egotistic "frozen belief" crap, and if > the device puts out a force, we should keep in mind that it might NOT be > verifying our latest amazing and wonderful idea. Instead, it might be a > lucky accident. When we fall in love with our ideas, it prevents us from > delving into the physics and discovering what is actually happening. > > "It is a good morning exercise for a research scientist to discard a > pet hypothesis every day before breakfast. It keeps him young." > - Konrad Lorenz > > > ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science > Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 25 12:35:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA11057; Thu, 25 May 2000 12:29:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 12:29:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 12:29:39 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: Gravity capacitor testing In-Reply-To: <000a01bfc658$425d5da0$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"5yJRj3.0.gi2.fyNBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15310 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Thu, 25 May 2000, Sam Garza wrote: > I got around the same capacitance about .03uf V/T = I/C, so if you use a 10uA VDG as a power supply, the voltage will rise at 300V per second. That way you could watch for a lifting force in the time before the waxpaper broke down. Or maybe the leakage current would keep it from breaking down. Another thought about corona: if the foils were unslotted rings, and if the diameter of every other foil was smaller, then some foils would stick out, and others would be buried between the bigger ones. In that case, the voltage at the edges of the "sticking out" foils would be low, since they're adjacent only to their alike-charged neighbors. On the other hand, the voltage on the edges of the "buried" foils would be very high, and corona would ignite on them. In that case, the device would become polarity sensitive, since the edges of the "buried" foils would all emit the same polarity of ions, and the "sticking out" foils would behave as collectors. As an ion generator, the grav-cap has a geometry like the ELG-hat: ions from one foil must loop around the waxpaper dielectric in order to get to the neighboring foil. But in the grav-cap, ions from one foil are going to BOTH neighbors. If the hole was removed from the waxpaper in every other layer, then the ions would always flow, say, left to right inside the stack. If the gravity effect is caused by one polarity of ion, then the thrust created by the unidirectional ion flows might be much smaller when the device is hooked up one way, and much larger if the leads to the HV P.S. were swapped. In any case, experimenters should try testing both polarities on their capacitors. Maybe the gravity effect is much smaller for one polarity. Hey JLN, is the thrust from the ELG-hat identical regardless of polarity, or does one particualr polarity produce more thrust? And does it work just as well with HV AC as with DC? If fields create the force, then both low and high-frequency AC should work. If ions create the force, then AC might not work (or maybe low-freq AC would work, but high-freq would not.) I made an 8" ELG-hat from Foamcore board and suspended it from 5' wires in a doorway, pendulum style. WHen wired to a 10uA ionizer as a supply, it did not move perceptibly sideways. If it moved, the motion was less than 1mm. I don't know how high the supply voltage was, but the wires gave off a slight noise from poorly filtered AC. The center electrode was negative. I'll have to try reversing the polarity. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 25 13:31:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA32678; Thu, 25 May 2000 13:30:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:30:01 -0700 Message-ID: <20000525202917.45843.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [63.27.227.118] From: "Timothy Flytch" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: Gravity capacitor testing Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:29:16 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"o0JkC1.0.Q-7.7rOBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15311 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com >From: William Beaty > When we fall in love with our ideas, it prevents us from >delving into the physics and discovering what is actually happening. Ouch!!! That hurts... But I understand... ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 25 14:56:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA21748; Thu, 25 May 2000 14:50:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:50:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:49:54 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: Gravity capacitor testing In-Reply-To: <20000525202917.45843.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Yyx5e.0.FI5.B0QBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15312 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Thu, 25 May 2000, Timothy Flytch wrote: > >From: William Beaty > > When we fall in love with our ideas, it prevents us from > >delving into the physics and discovering what is actually happening. > > Ouch!!! That hurts... > But I understand... It's just the usual "paradigm blindness", but at the personal scale. Mavericks are often no better than mainstreamers when defending little orthodoxies. For example, I've currently got the strange idea that ion-flows affect gravity, so if an experiment gives strong evidence that disproves this idea, I might not even notice! :) I think the solution is to constantly leap back and forth between belief systems. That way we don't play favorites, and if someone disproves a particular theory, it's not as if they are murdering our pets. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 25 15:35:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA31876; Thu, 25 May 2000 15:34:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 15:34:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 15:34:26 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty Reply-To: William Beaty To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <68.3d64807.265cd9a5@aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"4gqtC1.0.in7.vfQBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15313 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Quick & dirty ELG-hat test I made an 8" ELG-hat from Foamcore board and suspended it from 5' wires in a doorway, pendulum style. It's not identical to JLN's: its bigger, and I stuck a plastic cup onto it in place of the foam cylinder. When wired to a 10uA ionizer as a supply, it did not move perceptibly sideways. If it moved, the motion was less than 1mm. I don't know how high the supply voltage was, but the wires gave off a slight noise from poorly filtered AC. The supply voltage is probably BELOW 10kv, which is below the thrust-producing region on JLN's graph. The center electrode was negative. I'll have to try increasing the volts. ALso reversing the polarity. ALso using a foam cylinder! The data from http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/elghatv1.htm has some odd features. The slope of the graph indicates that the thrust goes to zero at about 11KV, yet the current is not zero at that point. The slope of the graph indicates that the current would eventually go to zero at around 7KV. It would be interesting to see the graph of thrust and current vs. voltage between 5KV and 16KV. Also to see the same graph with the plastic bag installed. There might be a "knee" in the V vs I graph at around 11KV where the thrust begins. Perhaps 20uA of the current is corona from the wires and sharp metal parts, and the rest is ion currents from the capacitor foils. Perhaps the "thrust" only appears when a corona discharge ignites on the edges of the capacitor foils, and this occurs at 11KV. Without a corona discharge there is no ion flow in the air around the capacitor (or inside the plastic bag.) If ions are important, then perhaps it's important to seal the foam cylinder solidly to the foam disk. The ions then flow up and over the cylinder, rather than going through the crack at the bottom. Suggestion: seal a "lid" disk on the top of the cylinder. This will prevent ions from flowing between the electrodes. Does the "lid" reduce the thrust? If so, then ions are probably involved. Hey JLN, is the thrust identical regardless of polarity, or does one polarity produce more thrust? And does it work just as well with HV-AC as with HV-DC? If fields create the force, then both low and high-frequency AC should work. If ions create the force, then AC might not work (or maybe low-freq AC would work, but high-freq AC would not.) ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 25 16:31:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA12425; Thu, 25 May 2000 16:30:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 16:30:13 -0700 Reply-To: "Sparky" From: "Keith Nagel" To: "William Beaty" Cc: Subject: RE: [FG]: Quick & dirty ELG-hat test Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 19:28:45 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"5MJJm.0.-13.2URBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15314 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi Bill. I suggested to JLN that he replace the hat with a potted capacitor of the same value; this to determine if the force is actually coming from the hat. I noticed in the design of the balance that he's using a pair of razor blades to support the balance arm, which double as lead wires for the power supply. Consider that he's got a razor blade at ~+10kV... well you understand. It would also explain the bag result. By the way, this bag thing was your idea yes? I kind of understand it, but couldn't ion streamers form off the the bag surface? Perhaps corona dope would be better. By the way, ever do thrust measurements with those electric thread experiments you were writing about? Seems like a good way to test your ideas about ion streams and gravity. K. -----Original Message----- From: William Beaty [mailto:billb@eskimo.com] Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 6:34 PM To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Quick & dirty ELG-hat test I made an 8" ELG-hat from Foamcore board and suspended it from 5' wires in a doorway, pendulum style. It's not identical to JLN's: its bigger, and I stuck a plastic cup onto it in place of the foam cylinder. When wired to a 10uA ionizer as a supply, it did not move perceptibly sideways. If it moved, the motion was less than 1mm. I don't know how high the supply voltage was, but the wires gave off a slight noise from poorly filtered AC. The supply voltage is probably BELOW 10kv, which is below the thrust-producing region on JLN's graph. The center electrode was negative. I'll have to try increasing the volts. ALso reversing the polarity. ALso using a foam cylinder! The data from http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/elghatv1.htm has some odd features. The slope of the graph indicates that the thrust goes to zero at about 11KV, yet the current is not zero at that point. The slope of the graph indicates that the current would eventually go to zero at around 7KV. It would be interesting to see the graph of thrust and current vs. voltage between 5KV and 16KV. Also to see the same graph with the plastic bag installed. There might be a "knee" in the V vs I graph at around 11KV where the thrust begins. Perhaps 20uA of the current is corona from the wires and sharp metal parts, and the rest is ion currents from the capacitor foils. Perhaps the "thrust" only appears when a corona discharge ignites on the edges of the capacitor foils, and this occurs at 11KV. Without a corona discharge there is no ion flow in the air around the capacitor (or inside the plastic bag.) If ions are important, then perhaps it's important to seal the foam cylinder solidly to the foam disk. The ions then flow up and over the cylinder, rather than going through the crack at the bottom. Suggestion: seal a "lid" disk on the top of the cylinder. This will prevent ions from flowing between the electrodes. Does the "lid" reduce the thrust? If so, then ions are probably involved. Hey JLN, is the thrust identical regardless of polarity, or does one polarity produce more thrust? And does it work just as well with HV-AC as with HV-DC? If fields create the force, then both low and high-frequency AC should work. If ions create the force, then AC might not work (or maybe low-freq AC would work, but high-freq AC would not.) ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 25 19:50:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA01145; Thu, 25 May 2000 19:49:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 19:49:58 -0700 From: tv@juno.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 19:48:35 -0700 Subject: Re: [FG]: Hutchison (disappointment) Message-ID: <20000525.194835.-356565.0.tv@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 3.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,7-8,14-15,22-23,25-26,29-32,35-36,44-45,48-49,60-61,68-69,73-74,77-78,83-89,91-96,98-144 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 Resent-Message-ID: <"lXzg02.0.oH.LPUBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15315 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hello Tommy, I don't know what video you have, but I have one that was from 1987 which I obtained through a friend from George Hathaway, an engineer from Ontario. Some of the effects shown are not very spectacular but they are impressive. It shows objects made of various materials including metal, wood, water, and plastic being moved by some force when Hutchison's equipment is operating. In some cases they are levitated. At other times metals are "disrupted" or torn apart by some kind of force. My tape includes a TV news report from a TV station in Vancouver. The TV news people showed a levitation of a small piece of aluminum foil that was sitting on a milk crate in the middle of the floor in a large amongst the equipment. It went clear to the ceiling (about 10 feet) and stayed there for a moment before falling back to the floor. The pictures were taken with an 8mm film movie camera (not video) with no sound. It was later transferred to VHS video. In some cases you can see flashes and coronas appearing across the objects that are levitated or disrupted. The observed effects are very sporadic and unpredictable. Sometimes, Hutchison himself cannot replicate them for weeks at a time. They seem to result from a precise set of conditions that are achieved through trial-and-error. According to both Hathaway and Hutchison himself, the equipment consists primarily of the following 3 elements: (1) There was a Van-de-Graaf generator which was not connected to anything. It provided large amounts of ionized or charged air. Charged/Ionized air seems to be necessary for this effect to occur. (2) Hemholtz coils to provide an adjustable weak magnetic field. (3) a source of radio frequency energy, primarily tesla coils, and in some cases low power UHF or microwave signals in the range of VHF to 2 Ghz. I have talked to Hutchison on the phone, in one case for about 2 hours. He is very open about this and seems honest. I judge him to be sincere. He will readily admit he does not understand what precisely causes the effects, but he believes gravity and vacuum energy forces are being manipulated somehow by the interaction of ionized/charged air, the RF energy, and the magnetic fields. He believes it involves an effect at the surfaces of the objects. That seems like a reasonable guess as there are the visible coronas. Speaking of coronas, my video shows a spectacular multicolored "aurora" that appeared in the room while the equipment was operating. It was a rare occurrence that the camera happened to catch. I think the evidence points to a real effect of a unknown nature. However, given the several "raids" on Hutchison by the Canadian "authorities" where his equipment was confiscated, and not returned, perhaps it is not such an unknown effect, but very useful, and very secret. The latest "raid" was conducted on the pretence of confiscating Hutchison's antique firearms collection which I understand has recently been returned with no charges or explanation. Hutchison is not a rich man and was able to conduct his experiments with scrounged surplus equipment, a great deal of ingenuity, patience, and hard work. Such tactics serve to stop him temporarily but have only created more interest in his work. I know of no serious attempt to replicate the Hutchison effect. I wonder if it would be reasonable to try various combinations of ionized/charged air, magnetic fields, and radio frequency energy in a small test chamber, instead of a large room like Hutchison did. This way perhaps, the effects could be better controlled. But if you try it, don't expect immediate results. Hutchison spend hours and days playing with his equipment before he claims to have stumbled upon the effect. Perhaps the "Hutchison Effect" is involded in some the of the gravity anomolies sometimes reported in association with severe lightning storms, particularly ball lighting. Another obvious connection could be made with UFO's which often are reported to be surrounded by a plasma glow. Another speculation... If the gravity capacitor is not just another "social engineering" hoax, then maybe there is a skin effect plasma involved as well. If anyone would want to host a some real-video clips. I can put them in real-video format and upload them to you so others can see this video. The collection of video segments is not copyrighted, except maybe the TV news report. I can convert the videos to real-video format, but I have no real-video server available at this time. Tim some Hutchison links to check out: A brief history of Hutchinson: http://www.altenergy.org/1_4_New_E/1_4_3_Zero_Point_Energy_and_Ot/1_4_3_4 _Hutchinson/1_4_3_4_hutchinson.html The Hutchinson Effect: http://www.luminet.net/~wenonah/new/hutchiso.htm The Hutchison Web page (by Solis): http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Thinktank/8863/index.html#UPDAT E Space drive speculations: http://members.aol.com/utahspace/usa_exceeding.htm Charged air anomalies (Bill Beatty's site): http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/iontest.html Gravity capacitor: http://www.amasci.com/caps/capwarp.html On Wed, 24 May 2000 19:35:47 -0700 myagent2@home.com writes: > Hello All, > > I just received my "John Hutchisen" video from lightworksav.com. > > Folks, as I started watching the video I was very excited... this > excitement > gradually became disappointed after watching the footage of the > experiments.. They appear to be very simple special effects.. I > reviewed > the 55 minute tape many times, and I was very unhappy. > > I've lost a little motivation to explore things like the gravity > capacitor > and the Hutchisen effect, and electrogravitics... I guess I will > cancel my > order for all that Tin Foil... > > Also, I watched a Dennis Lee video, and I got the same feeling. > > Has anyone seen anything inspiring lately? I could sure use it at > this > point. > > Thanks. > > Tommy > > > PS - ~billb, thanks for all of the work you have put into your > website.. it > has given me many hours of happiness. > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 25 20:11:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA07125; Thu, 25 May 2000 20:10:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 20:10:22 -0700 Sender: crusoe@eskimo.com Message-ID: <392D98EB.3CA5A701@worldnet.att.net> Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 16:19:39 -0500 From: Daniel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14-15mdk i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: Gravity capacitor testing References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"NP5sD2.0.5l1.TiUBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15316 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com William Beaty wrote: > > > I could feel a cool breeze leaving all around the edges of the device > > This most recent person says that the device "floats", and that it puts > out several lbs of thrust. He also says that he made several earlier > versions which failed, and he didn't see any large thrust until he aligned > the foil edges exactly. He notes that the interior glows blue in the > dark, but there is NO large "electric wind" which could explain the large > force. > I spent most of my time in Missouri, and as you all know, Missouri is the show me state. Show Me! Tell him to take pics of it, etc. We've had nutballs and trolls post spurious results before. Tell him to post the plans, details of it's construction, and photos of it in operation... Daniel Joyce From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 25 21:25:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA02020; Thu, 25 May 2000 21:25:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 21:25:04 -0700 From: tv@juno.com To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com Cc: vortex-L@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 21:26:07 -0700 Message-ID: <20000525.212608.-356565.1.tv@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 3.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-2,5-7 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 Resent-Message-ID: <"Y0We91.0.AV.VoVBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15317 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Tornado's, plasmas, and Antigravity Just an speculation to throw out. If some forms of plasmas and electrical discharges can alter gravity like in the Hutchinson effect, maybe a tornado is really powered by an electro-gravity effect as a result of the electrical activity inside. Tim From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 25 21:54:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA12582; Thu, 25 May 2000 21:53:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 21:53:43 -0700 From: dtmiller@midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: Gravity capacitor testing Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 04:54:09 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Reply-To: dtmiller@midiowa.net Message-ID: <392db806.64519614@mail.midiowa.net> References: <20000524.155030.-432969.0.tv@juno.com> <003b01bfc5e2$117934a0$749b10cf@drosigno> <000a01bfc658$425d5da0$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> In-Reply-To: <000a01bfc658$425d5da0$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id VAA12543 Resent-Message-ID: <"yiuCe.0.Q43.MDWBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15318 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi Sam, All, On Thu, 25 May 2000 10:48:15 -0400, "Sam Garza" wrote: >I am using mylar instead of wax paper and I have only had a television set >HV lead to test with which has been to much voltage (told it is between >20-25KV) it zaps through polyethylene between layers like through the air >between the layers which then leaves a tunnel between a plate layer and the >adjacent poly layers fusing them together. With mylar it still tunnels >between layers but it only puts black smoke on the mylar it does not melt >it. I should be getting a variable power supply today. I don't have time to make the gravity capacitor right now (son graduating from H.S. and clients breathing down my neck to get their problems solved) -- but I intend to make one this summer. However ... Reading the original "April Fool" message again, I noticed that the voltage being used was supplied by *batteries.* That implies, to me, that the voltage wasn't close to being HV -- maybe more like the 10 to 40 volt range. I'm suspecting the sharp edges of the metal might produce the desired effect. -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moines (CDP, KB0ZDF) From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 25 22:13:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA20547; Thu, 25 May 2000 22:13:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 22:13:12 -0700 From: JNaudin509@aol.com Message-ID: <7a.5bf4cb8.265f61bb@aol.com> Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 01:12:27 EDT Subject: Re: [FG]: Gravity capacitor testing To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id WAA20518 Resent-Message-ID: <"3SJN83.0.y05.dVWBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15319 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Dans un courrier daté du 25/05/00 21:30:28 Paris, Madrid (heure d'été), billb@eskimo.com a écrit : > > Hey JLN, is the thrust from the ELG-hat identical regardless of polarity, > or does one particualr polarity produce more thrust? And does it work > just as well with HV AC as with DC? If fields create the force, then both > low and high-frequency AC should work. If ions create the force, then AC > might not work (or maybe low-freq AC would work, but high-freq would not.) > Hi William and all, I have already tried to reverse the polarities of the ELG-Hat and the thrust remain upward. This works also well with my Wimshurst marchine. I have also tested the HV-power supply used for the OAUGDP Panel experiment ( at :http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdp1.htm ) and I have noticed that at a certain frequency ( in the kHz range ) the ELG-Hat move quickly upward. The motion is quick but only during a short time, the tuning of the frequency seems precise... I need to investigate more about this. Best Regards Jean-Louis Naudin From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 25 22:20:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA23595; Thu, 25 May 2000 22:20:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 22:20:15 -0700 From: JNaudin509@aol.com Message-ID: <27.6130186.265f6368@aol.com> Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 01:19:36 EDT Subject: Re: [FG]: Quick & dirty ELG-hat test To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id WAA23561 Resent-Message-ID: <"MYZct1.0.am5.EcWBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15320 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Dans un courrier daté du 26/05/00 00:35:07 Paris, Madrid (heure d'été), billb@eskimo.com a écrit : > The data from http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/elghatv1.htm has some > odd features. The slope of the graph indicates that the thrust goes to > zero at about 11KV, yet the current is not zero at that point. The slope > of the graph indicates that the current would eventually go to zero at > around 7KV. Yes the thrust is zero at a certain range of voltage input, because the oscillations of the two 2N3055 used in the HV generator STOPS when the power supply is set below 8.5 V DC .....Nothing weird and linked to the ELG-Hat experiment... Jean-Louis From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 26 01:08:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA26159; Fri, 26 May 2000 01:07:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 01:07:45 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: Gravity capacitor testing Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 18:07:08 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <62csisoscub4e3rkc1h1kos3ije9mddom5@4ax.com> References: <7a.5bf4cb8.265f61bb@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <7a.5bf4cb8.265f61bb@aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id BAA26125 Resent-Message-ID: <"rjqhb1.0.dO6.G3ZBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15321 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Fri, 26 May 2000 01:12:27 EDT, JNaudin509@aol.com wrote: [snip] >I have also tested the HV-power supply used for the OAUGDP Panel experiment > ( at :http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdp1.htm ) and I have noticed >that at a certain frequency ( in the kHz range ) the ELG-Hat move quickly >upward. The motion is quick but only during a short time, the tuning of the >frequency seems precise... I need to investigate more about this. [snip] Perhaps at the point where the capacitance of the hat produces a tank resonance with the driver, so that the amplitude of the voltage reaches its peak value? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 26 10:56:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA10336; Fri, 26 May 2000 10:55:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 10:55:47 -0700 Message-ID: <000a01bfc6f9$d427d5c0$c5a134d1@a9o0z0> From: "Alik S" To: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 10:04:47 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"CL9852.0.HX2.ZghBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15322 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: yet_another_nuke_battery http://www.rhombic.com/nuclearbattery.html From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 26 11:20:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA20621; Fri, 26 May 2000 11:19:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 11:19:26 -0700 Message-ID: <392EBF57.8DCB957D@harti.com> Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 20:15:51 +0200 From: Stefan Hartmann Organization: Hartmann Multimedia Service X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [de]C-CCK-MCD QXW03200 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "jlnlabs@egroups.com" , "ou-builders@egroups.com" , Free Energy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"-tMI41.0.225.k0iBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15323 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: [Fwd: Re: Real good evidence of H2 the only fuel !] Betreff: Re: Real good evidence of H2 the only fuel ! Datum: Fri, 26 May 2000 07:46:04 -0700 Von: James Quaid Rückantwort: "Newman-L Mailing List" An: "Newman-L Mailing List" I can't verify that he is running soley on H2 or Brown's gas from the movie. But I will tell you that you can run an H2 engine at very low rpm. Some friends of mine took a couple of Briggs and Stratton engines into the 100's rpm range without stalling on H2. This is due once again to H2's incdence of ignition. The fact that they are running that vehicle in the 500 rpm range is more proof H2 is the fuel. JQ Stefan Hartmann wrote: > Well, Dingle is using High voltage as Stanley Meyer > and his circuit is yet unknown to me, > so I can´t comment on the efficiency of his design.... > BUT: > > In the tape you can see, that at one point he pulls > out the H2 hose from the reactor unit > when the motor runs and the motor > comes immediately to a stop.. !! > > This makes fully sense and it shows me, > that he really runs the motor with H2 and O2 > from his reactor ! > and that it is not faked somehow. > > Unfortunately you can not hear this so good > on the encoded ASF, cause the motor sound > is a bit distorted, so it sounds > not much like a motor in the 16 Kbits/sec > Windows Media Audio codec small datarate, > but now as I have pointed this out, have a look again. > > The other guy just started the motor a few seconds > ago and then Dingle pulls out the H2 hose plug > and the motor comes to a stillstand ! > > It is in the movie: > waterc01.asf > > Also he cools the water via the motor fan > which you can see in movie > waterc02.asf > and that explains to me, that the water > has to be cold for a better electrolysis ! > > I hope we can convince Dingle, > that it is time to release the plans > for his High Voltage driver publically.... > This way, it can´t be suppressed anymore > and he could probably better make money > by selling a book about his invention... > > It is a wonder, the Oil barons did not > yet stop him..... > > I hope he will not be bought out by big oil > companies... > This is a revolution ! > > Imagine having your car modified to run on > water for about 500 US$ or less ! > Would you go for it ? > Probably immediately ! > > Regards, Stefan. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 26 12:17:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA15101; Fri, 26 May 2000 12:12:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 12:12:06 -0700 Message-ID: <392ECC85.DEB6C569@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 12:12:05 -0700 From: eks1 Reply-To: eks1@earthlink.net Organization: Systems Research Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,en-GB,en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: [Fwd: Re: Real good evidence of H2 the only fuel !] References: <392EBF57.8DCB957D@harti.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"g1tgs2.0.oh3.5oiBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15324 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Someone, tho probably not Stefan Hartmann wrote: > I can't verify that he is running soley on H2 or Brown's gas from the > movie. But I will tell you that you can run an H2 engine at very low > rpm. Some friends of mine took a couple of Briggs and Stratton engines > into the 100's rpm range without stalling on H2. This is due once again > to H2's incdence of ignition. The fact that they are running that > vehicle in the 500 rpm range is more proof H2 is the fuel. > > JQ I'm not sure exactly what JQ means by "incdence of ignition". Having been one of the researchers on the JPL Automotive Power System Evaluation Study aka the JPL H2 Car, etal. I can confirm that operating Otto-Cycyle engines on H2 can permit very low rpm idle - this has to do with the way H2 combustion occurs and with the fact that the mixture strips the residual oil film from the cyl wall! During even low rpm operation this is a severe problem, which requires the use of the best lubricants in such engines. We were using Aero SHELL turbine lube with the addition of some "moly-coat" additive! Very expen$ive! Nowadays you might make a case for using synthetics like AMSoil, or similar. H2 in the combustion chamber also causes hydrogen embrittlment, especially with steel/iron alloys. This can reduce your cyl walls and piston rings to metallic cookie dust over a period of months to years. All this aside..getting the ignition timing set properly for H2 is a real bitch! You need to crank in about 34 degrees of retard for proper idle on most V8's. This usually wont permit you to advance the timing enough to get to the "sweet-spot" which all engines have for producing maximum torque and bhp. The best solution to the problem is to forget fixed valve timing and go with something that was long ago discarded - Varicam. This is essentially a spring-loaded rotary advance mechanism for the camshaft. Believe me, it solves a lot of the problems associated with using H2 as fuel. --- "When it comes to paradigms, you must shift for yourself!" - Anon |-----------------------| | Systems Research Ltd. |------->"Any real-world system is more.. |-----------------------| ..than the mere sum of it's parts!" Erik K. Sorgatz (KB6LUY) http://home.earthlink.net/~eks1 From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 26 13:30:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA19226; Fri, 26 May 2000 13:29:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 13:29:27 -0700 Message-ID: <00c701bfc750$2145d900$299b10cf@drosigno> Reply-To: "David Rosignoli" From: "David Rosignoli" To: References: <20000524.155030.-432969.0.tv@juno.com> <003b01bfc5e2$117934a0$749b10cf@drosigno> <000a01bfc658$425d5da0$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> <392db806.64519614@mail.midiowa.net> Subject: Re: [FG]: Gravity capacitor testing Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 16:22:34 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"HLXwM1.0.Gi4.dwjBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15325 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Judging from the previous experiments that I did, I am more inclined to believe it is a low voltage effect (<1 kVDC). However, if this is true, then ion wind production would be essentially zero. So would field effects. Something else would need to account for the effect. > Reading the original "April Fool" message again, I noticed that the > voltage being used was supplied by *batteries.* That implies, to me, > that the voltage wasn't close to being HV -- maybe more like the 10 to > 40 volt range. > > I'm suspecting the sharp edges of the metal might produce the desired > effect. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 26 14:01:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA32213; Fri, 26 May 2000 14:00:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 14:00:55 -0700 Message-ID: <392EE531.1F5641EC@harti.com> Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 22:57:21 +0200 From: Stefan Hartmann Organization: Hartmann Multimedia Service X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [de]C-CCK-MCD QXW03200 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "jlnlabs@egroups.com" , "ou-builders@egroups.com" , Free Energy , Newman-L Mailing List X-Priority: 2 (High) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_DmMB.0.At7.7OkBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15326 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Honeycomb copper electrodes...? Hi, if you have a closer look at the picture: http://www.overunity.com/watercar/2ndunit2.jpg at the right side, where there is no water on the plastic lid in the second higher RPM helper electrolysis unit, you can see that there is a copper plate with holes drilled in it. Maybe this is the kind of "honeycomb" structure the inventor´s manager Dr. Ernesto has told Michael Randall ? Maybe he has stacked a few copper plates with drilled holes in it over each other and through the holes the gas is getting to the surface ? It probably needs a very huge surface area to generate lots of gas with this high voltage process. -- Best regards, Stefan Hartmann. -- Hartmann Multimedia Service, Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498 email: harti@harti.com info@ccard.net http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB ! From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 26 16:57:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA06792; Fri, 26 May 2000 16:51:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 16:51:58 -0700 Message-ID: <001501bfc76c$9bb21d40$0100a8c0@earthlink.net> From: "Z" To: References: <20000525.194835.-356565.0.tv@juno.com> Subject: Re: [FG]: Hutchison (disappointment) Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 16:46:25 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"FKYPQ3.0.1g1.TumBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15327 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hey Tim, Great message about Hutchison - informative and inspiring. I was wondering if Hutchison ever mentioned sound as being part of the equation? I have found that if I run my small (250KV) Tesla Coil using a high voltage DC input instead of a neon light supply, the coil makes this eerie shreaking sound. The closest thing I can think of is the sound you get when you pinch the neck of a balloon and let the air out. It's a kind of screech. I have heard many explanations of why this happens, but I'm more interested if sound might be an important factor that's being overlooked. It seems to me that all Hutchisons stuff makes a similar 'noise'. Thanks again for the constructive comments, ...Z From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 26 17:52:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA22597; Fri, 26 May 2000 17:52:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 17:52:15 -0700 From: HLafonte@aol.com Message-ID: <28.629876d.26607618@aol.com> Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 20:51:36 EDT To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 102 Resent-Message-ID: <"hz0E01.0.rW5.-mnBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15328 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Butch,reply to Stewart,why Newman got closest In a message dated 5/20/00 6:47:27 PM Central Daylight Time, srae@ihug.co.nz writes: STEWART, MY RESPONSES ARE IN UPPER CASE > Hi Butch, > > You said : > > > > > 1.I believe that Joe's theory of operation of his devices, if they > > are right or wrong, working or not, have come closer to true > > overunity operation that any device anyone has yet to build. > > I don't believe anyone has built a true > > overunity device to this day, but once again I believe Joe got > > the closest. > > > > Yes, but how about E. V. Gray's motor as another example? It appears > to work on one of the same basic principles that Joe discovered. And > that was why Gray used very long delay lines wound around the body of > the motor. For example, part 37 in his patent number 3,890,548. > Or to quote him directly:- > "........The rectified unidirectional pulsating output of each of the > diodes in converter 36 is passed through delay coils 23, 24, thus > forming a harness 37 wound around the case of the engine, as > hereinafter described, which is believed to provide a static floating > flux field......" > > Personally, I think the "...static floating flux field..." part is a > blind, but its magnetic field might also have doubled to assist > the speed of his spark gap switching. > I WILL LOOK INTO HIS PATENT > > > > 2. Some of Joe's theories I don't agree with, others I think show > genius. I > > believe he may have been very close to discovering overunity and > made a lot > > of people uneasy. His personality and thoughts on religion, life, > etc., are > > of no concern with me. > > I am looking only at his work. I believe his ideas are very valuable > tools > > that can be used to discover true overunity. > > > > Fair comment. > > > > > 3. Joe's coils had to deal with two things, resistance, and > induction. > > Induction has an inductive time constant made up of five separate > phases as > > all induction coils have. > > I could be wrong but I don't ever remember Joe talking about > inductive time > > constants. This was a mistake to overlook this important behavior of > coils. > > > > Yes, the inductive time constant is something that Joe doesn't seem to > address directly, yet it could be one of the most important aspects > when considering what really occurs when a long delay line is pulsed > with very high voltage in this manner. > > But what are these "...five separate phases.." of inductive time > constant that you talk of? It was my impression that an inductive time > constant is the time it takes for an inductor's current to reach > approximately 63% of its final value, and is defined > as L/R seconds. After a period of about five time constants the > inductor's current will be high enough to approximate its final value. > Is that what you mean ? YES > > > > > 4. Joe talked of wire length and breaking the circuit before the > current > > pulse got to the end of the wire. He never mentioned that the pulse > flows in > > both directions when the circuit is closed. Charges flow up the > wires from > > both positive and negative terminals when the circuit is closed and > they > > "meet" at half the wire length. The current pulse and current flow > leaving > > the negative terminal does not happen and just let the wire on the > positive > > terminal sit there with nothing going on in it. A backward > progression of > > ions starts from the positive terminal to meet with the pulse > speeding at > > near light speed in the other wire. Joe never mentioned this. I > wonder if he > > was aware of it? If he was not, then the timing for his devices > would be off > > by 50%. > > > > Are you saying that the electrons and the ions move towards each other > at the speed of light ? If you are, this is not quite correct. Even > Joe would say that it was the "gyroscopic massergy" that moves down > the wire at "the speed of light" . My understanding is that the > communication of electrical "potential' occurs at a speed related to > that of light, but electrons, which carry most or all of the charge > which makes up the current, move quite slowly in a conductor. > And positive ions move even slower. I don't think that the two, > meeting at "half the wire length" is correct either, or relevant to > the principle. > I MEAN THE CURRENT PULSE, NOT THE CURRENT DRIFT, THAT IS MUCH SLOWER > > > > 5. Joe used a permanent magnet for his rotor. I think he should have > used an > > electromagnet and pulsed it the same as the fixed > coil.......................snip > > > > Yes. And this is effectively what Gray did, in that he pulsed both the > stator and rotor windings with a high voltage capacitive discharge > when they were in juxtaposition. The two windings were in magnetic > opposition. > > > > > 6. Joe's large coils, close to four feet high and four feet in > diameter > > exhibited some very amazing things and I think Joe should never have > left > > these large machines and should have build them even bigger. The > rotor on > > this large motor had a weight of 600 pounds and a 200 rpm rotation > could be > > maintained with a 1 & 1/2 watt input. I want to see someone build a > DC motor > > with a 600 pound rotor and use 1 & 1/2 watts to keep it rotating at > 200 rpm. > > Do it yourself and then I will listen to your thoughts on it's not > being > > worth looking into. > > > > Yes, but didn't Joe build that very large model simply to demonstrate > the principle and prove the point of what he was saying ? Or are you > saying that the size is somehow related to any potential "O/U" > effect ? I can't see how the size has anything to do with "O/U" in > this case. I LIKE WORKING WITH LARGE DEVICES FOR WHAT REASON I DON'T KNOW > > Again (and just as an example), Gray's motor was powered by a single > 12 volt car battery, yet it produced 32.05 brake horse power (23,909 > watts). Isn't that what might be called "O/U" ? It wasn't very large, > and fitted neatly into the engine compartment of an automobile. > > > > > 7. I believe Joe is an intuitive genius but may lack the engineering > skills > > to get his idea to overunity operation. I think Joe truly believes > in his > > theory and that his machines are overunity. How hard he has worked > these many > > years on his ideas is hard for me to believe. > > > > Agreed. And it doesn't really matter what criticisms others may level > at him, he is clearly a man of considerable intuitive perception, > principle, and determination. > > > > > 8. What I would like to see is the building of two coils of VERY > large size. > > Each coil around 5 feet in diameter by 4 feet high with iron cores > that could > > be removed. The coils would be wired series and be in repulsion. > This would > > reduce the induction of each coil to a degree. The wire length would > be very > > long and timing the pulses to last only till the charges meet at > half wire > > length (where the two coils connect) should not be very hard to do. > If large > > diameter wire was used so low voltage could be used to produce large > magnetic > > fields between these coils, I wonder just what could be discovered > from > > experimenting. > > > > I still don't understand why you would want to build such large > inductors Butch. By far the easiest way to test the principle, so > clearly evident in both the Newman and Gray machines, is to engineer > and construct a simplified mechanism, that runs by firing very high > voltage pulses down a very long inductive (low distributed capacity) > delay line (i.e. one microsecond per 1000 feet of wire). YOU ARE PROBABLY RIGHT ON THIS > > By using a very high voltage pulse, it eliminates the effective L/R > time constant, in that the electron current reaches a particular > pre-determined level much more rapidly. i.e. by the substitution of > pure high voltage potential in the energy equation, rather than a > physical electron current over 5 * L/R. The same energy produced, > and stored in the inductor's magnetic field (and the re-directed back > EMF it subsequently produces), can then be used to pulse charge a > suitable capacitor, before discharging it through the stator, rotor, > both in series, or whatever . (Remember too, that when you pulse > charge a capacitor, the entropy (and therefore the energy required to > do so), goes down in proportion to the number of applied pulses..... > (i.e. entropy will tend to zero, as the number of pulse steps tend > to infinity......) > > But then if you really want to get adventurous, and completely > eliminate any possible physical electron current from the source, > you can always pulse charge your capacitor from high voltage pulses, > directed through an "Avramenko Plug". That is, by applying a single > wire, high voltage pulsed potential, to two diodes, which charge the > capacitor you intend to discharge through the stator and rotor > windings. The rapid, high current, physical switching of the discharge > is easily accomplished with a suitable spark gap, ....as Gray > deliberately engineered to occur sequentially, and Joe discovered > with the sparking of his high voltage commutator. > THIS IS NEW TO ME, VERY INTERESTING > There has been a lot of theoretical BS spoken previously about how > Avramenko Plugs do or don't work, most of it to simply justify > a number of conceptual errors in current electromagnetic orthodoxy. > They actually DO work. > > > > > snip..............................Could these coils repel > > after a short pulse that is switched to cause an increasing > inductive time > > constant? What could be found testing different pulse duration's > with and > > without a switchable iron core rotor? Could a few flashlight > batteries move > > these two ton each, coils apart, even just a little? Could a 4 0r 5 > hundred > > pound rotor be made to turn and do work? > > > > Not sure what you mean by "increasing the inductive time constant" > here, but practical experimentation and demonstration by both > E.V. Gray and Joseph Newman has shown that a more than > adequate physical energy release occurs, when delayed high voltage > pulses are used to actuate the inductive circuits of a purpose built > high powered electric motor. > THAT STATEMENT WAS A BIG MISTAKE ON MY PART, I SHOULD NEVER HAVE SAID IT > Or if you would prefer, why not an electrical "O/U" generator > without any moving parts. I suspect that Leon Dragone (given half a > chance), would have eventually developed exactly that. From what I > understand his high voltage experiments demonstrated precisely the > same principle that reveals itself in both the Gray and Newman motors. > > > > > I would love to see. > > > > Like everyone else.....I'm working on it too....:-) > > Regards, > > Stuart Rae > STEWART, I HAVE A FEW IDEAS I WOULD LIKE TO RUN BUY YOU, HAVE YOU GOT THE TIME? THANKS, BUTCH From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 26 18:11:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA28139; Fri, 26 May 2000 18:11:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 18:11:02 -0700 From: HLafonte@aol.com Message-ID: <68.3eb4ff4.266079e9@aol.com> Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 21:07:53 EDT To: energy21@listbot.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, jlnlabs@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 102 Resent-Message-ID: <"qcR6o3.0.Wt6.c2oBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15329 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Need Stuart Rae email address Stuart, Lost your email address, please send direct. Thanks, Butch From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 26 19:18:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA17616; Fri, 26 May 2000 19:18:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 19:18:14 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: [Fwd: Re: Real good evidence of H2 the only fuel !] Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 12:17:39 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <392EBF57.8DCB957D@harti.com> <392ECC85.DEB6C569@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <392ECC85.DEB6C569@earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA17598 Resent-Message-ID: <"I7DjR3.0.9J4.b1pBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15330 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com In reply to eks1's message of Fri, 26 May 2000 12:12:05 -0700: [snip] > I'm not sure exactly what JQ means by "incdence of ignition". Having been >one of >the researchers on the JPL Automotive Power System Evaluation Study aka the > >JPL H2 Car, etal. I can confirm that operating Otto-Cycyle engines on H2 >can >permit very low rpm idle - this has to do with the way H2 combustion occurs >and >with the fact that the mixture strips the residual oil film from the cyl >wall! [snip] Hi, I don't suppose you looked into running ceramic engines on H2 did you? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 26 19:53:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA28595; Fri, 26 May 2000 19:53:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 19:53:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 19:53:11 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: Keith Nagel cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [FG]: Quick & dirty ELG-hat test In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"mEOOt2.0.i-6.PYpBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15331 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Thu, 25 May 2000, Keith Nagel wrote: > I suggested to JLN that he replace the hat with a potted > capacitor of the same value; this to determine if the force > is actually coming from the hat. I noticed in the design > of the balance that he's using a pair of razor blades to > support the balance arm, which double as lead wires for > the power supply. Consider that he's got a razor blade > at ~+10kV... well you understand. It would also explain > the bag result. Yeah, if there was a big cloud of ions hovering over the whole experiment, it could apply forces to electrodes. > By the way, this bag thing was your idea yes? I kind > of understand it, but couldn't ion streamers form off the > the bag surface? Perhaps corona dope would > be better. WIth corona dope you can always miss a spot. Ions are created by small regions of plasma (usually from discharges at sharp edges.) Only if the surface of the bag experiences a discharge could the bag emit ions. This COULD happen, but it would make a periodic snapping sound, and there would be flashes of little purple streamers on the surface of the bag. It wouldn't be silent and continuous, it takes a sharp metal object to do that. > By the way, ever do thrust measurements with those electric > thread experiments you were writing about? Nope. I never did most of the things I wanted to do with those. It's called "couch suction." The field of attraction around a comfortable chair is inversely proportional to my distance to it, and I quickly pass one-way through its event horizon. :) One interesting thing about the "threads." If you set up a swastika pinwheel and connect it to ground, then hold a charged plate near it, it should spin. It doesn't matter how the e-field is created, so a grounded pinwheel with a nearby charged "environment" should make it spin. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 26 19:54:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA28955; Fri, 26 May 2000 19:53:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 19:53:59 -0700 From: tv@juno.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 19:48:14 -0700 Subject: Re: [FG]: Hutchison (disappointment) Message-ID: <20000526.195501.-380903.0.tv@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 3.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-5,7-8,10-12 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 Resent-Message-ID: <"ifjDZ.0.G47.6ZpBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15332 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Fri, 26 May 2000 16:46:25 -0700 "Z" writes: > Hey Tim, > > Great message about Hutchison - informative and inspiring. I was > wondering if Hutchison ever mentioned sound as being part of the equation? No he did not say anything about sound, nor have I heard that from anyone else but who knows ? Tim From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 26 20:20:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA04082; Fri, 26 May 2000 20:15:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 20:15:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 20:15:28 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: Quick & dirty ELG-hat test In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"tp0BO3.0.h_.JtpBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15333 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Fri, 26 May 2000 JNaudin509@aol.com wrote: >Dans un courrier dati du 26/05/00 00:35:07 Paris, Madrid (heure d'iti), > > The data from http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/elghatv1.htm has some > > odd features. The slope of the graph indicates that the thrust goes to > > zero at about 11KV, yet the current is not zero at that point. The slope > > of the graph indicates that the current would eventually go to zero at > > around 7KV. > Yes the thrust is zero at a certain range of voltage input, because the > oscillations of the two 2N3055 used in the HV generator STOPS when the > power supply is set below 8.5 V DC .....Nothing weird and linked to the > ELG-Hat experiment... Jean-Louis I don't understand. Your graph shows KILOVOLTAGE, not battery voltage. Is that the true voltage measured at the high-voltage terminals? The position and slope of your graph is created by the behavior of the ELG-hat, it is not caused by the failure of your power supply below 11KV. The slope of the graph indicates interesting behavior. Your graph shows this: VOLTS THRUST 13,700 3 12,900 2 11,900 1 If we extrapolate the curve downwards, we find this: VOLTS THRUST 13,700 3 12,900 2 11,900 1 (10,900) (0) <-- zero thrust below a "threshold voltage" This has nothing to do with your power supply oscillator. It's only an extrapolation based upon the behavior of the thrust. It indicates that, as the KV is reduced, the thrust will fall to zero NOT at 0KV, but while the KV is still large. If your power supply is incapable of producing low voltage, then you cannot measure the zero-thrust voltage directly, you can only predict it by extending the graph downwards. If the thrust falls to zero while the voltage is still large, this suggests to me that the thrust is somehow caused by corona discharge. If the KV becomes less than a certain high value, the corona discharge is quenched, and the thrust falls to zero. If there was no "threshold voltage" involved, then the numbers should look like this: VOLTS THRUST 13,700 3 9,100 2 4,600 1 If the above numbers are graphed, the slope goes through 0,0. If your actual numbers are graphed, the slope goes to zero at 11KV. But still this effect could be caused by ions in the environment rather than by thrust from the ELG-hat. If a large cloud of ions is created by sharp points on the balance-beam (the razor blades?), then that cloud of ions could apply forces to the electrodes of the ELG-hat. If the ELG-hat was enclosed in a bag, the external ion-cloud would still produce a thrust. To eliminate any ion-spray effects, cover all sharp edges and thin wires with thick insulation (use RTV silicone caulk.) Perhaps the ions from the aluminum foil are necessary, therefore only cover the sharp parts on the connecting wires, and leave the edges of the foil uncovered. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 26 21:12:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA18477; Fri, 26 May 2000 21:12:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 21:12:15 -0700 From: tv@juno.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 21:12:32 -0700 Subject: Re: [FG]: Hutchison Effect Message-ID: <20000526.211233.-158643.0.tv@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 3.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 7-8,13-14,16-17,20-24 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 Resent-Message-ID: <"n_jYY3.0.VW4.ViqBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15334 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com In one of the scenes from the Hutchinson video I have, there is a cup sitting on a milk crate. The surface of the water is very disturbed and balls of water flying out. Apparently this was one of the easier effects to create. Assuming it was not faked by vibrations from a speaker or something, this would point to a sensitive method of detecting gravitational disturbances caused by the apparatus. Watching the surface of some water would be a sensitive indicator of possible gravity disturbance. Perhaps a good starting experiment would be to build a chamber to exclude outside breezes and concentrate the charged air. Charge the air with a Van-de-Graaf generator. Apply a variable magnetic field with a coil. Excite with a source of RF such a tesla coil. Try different combinations. To prevent possible bad health effects, use a video camera in shielded box to watch for effects. A good idea to check would be to see what would happen with a rotating electric field in the charged air chamber. Maybe a mini tornado could be formed ? Just one more idea for an experiment. Tim From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 26 21:41:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA27791; Fri, 26 May 2000 21:40:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 21:40:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 21:40:54 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: David Rosignoli cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: Gravity capacitor testing In-Reply-To: <00c701bfc750$2145d900$299b10cf@drosigno> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"FVt2H.0.8o6.P7rBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15335 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Fri, 26 May 2000, David Rosignoli wrote: > Judging from the previous experiments that I did, I am more inclined to > believe it is a low voltage effect (<1 kVDC). However, if this is true, then > ion wind production would be essentially zero. So would field effects. > Something else would need to account for the effect. The sharper the electrodes, and the closer the spacing, the lower is the "high voltage" needed to produce corona. (But if nobody can get these things to work, then the point is moot!) ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 26 22:30:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA11019; Fri, 26 May 2000 22:30:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 22:30:37 -0700 Message-ID: <392F5CE9.8EF95B0F@csrlink.net> Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 01:28:10 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael S. Johnston" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ppG5E3.0.0i2.zrrBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15336 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: H2 HI All, My, my, the water's getting deep around here isn't it? I've been away for the week and am just catching up on the emails tonight. I have a better insight into what I have been trying to get across here for some time now. I will get that up tomorrow. In theory it shouldn't be that difficult at all to build a water powered car or anything else. More tomorrow. MJ From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 26 22:56:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA17935; Fri, 26 May 2000 22:55:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 22:55:49 -0700 Reply-To: "Sparky" From: "Keith Nagel" To: "William Beaty" Cc: "Freenrg-L" Subject: RE: [FG]: Quick & dirty ELG-hat test Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 01:54:25 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"LpOOx3.0.8O4.aDsBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15337 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Bill writes... >Yeah, if there was a big cloud of ions hovering over the whole experiment, >it could apply forces to electrodes. I had more in mind that ion streamers from the blades would affect the balance. But indeed a large cloud of ions would cause problems. >WIth corona dope you can always miss a spot. Ions are created by small >regions of plasma (usually from discharges at sharp edges.) Only if the Yes, but the point is to supress ionization. The bag permits ionization to occur, it just is supposed to contain it. Another approach would be to suspend the hat in mineral oil. To me, the data says that thrust occurs during the flow of current, and is correlated to it. Its been my experience that >10kv is when corona starts to become an issue. Lacking a calibration test of the balance, without the DUT, where are we? K. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 26 23:40:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA24487; Fri, 26 May 2000 23:39:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 23:39:52 -0700 From: JNaudin509@aol.com Message-ID: <37.5b856d5.2660c78a@aol.com> Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 02:39:06 EDT Subject: Re: [FG]: Quick & dirty ELG-hat test To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA24460 Resent-Message-ID: <"Y3oYA.0.V-5.ussBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15338 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Dans un courrier daté du 27/05/00 04:53:55 Paris, Madrid (heure d'été), billb@eskimo.com a écrit : > One interesting thing about the "threads." If you set up a swastika > pinwheel and connect it to ground, then hold a charged plate near it, it > should spin. It doesn't matter how the e-field is created, so a grounded > pinwheel with a nearby charged "environment" should make it spin. This is the "Franklin pinwheel..", a simple corona motor.... :-) From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 26 23:43:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA26064; Fri, 26 May 2000 23:42:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 23:42:47 -0700 From: JNaudin509@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 02:42:09 EDT Subject: Re: [FG]: Quick & dirty ELG-hat test To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA26042 Resent-Message-ID: <"IOS-33.0.9N6.cvsBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15339 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Dans un courrier daté du 27/05/00 03:39:06 Paris, Madrid (heure d'été), BBeaty@microscan.com a écrit : > I don't understand. Your graph shows KILOVOLTAGE, not battery voltage. > Is that the true voltage measured at the high-voltage terminals? Hi Bill, Yes the voltage measured is the TRUE voltage at the output, The voltage is measured with a special x1000 High Voltage Probe GE3830 ( Max voltage : 30 kV ). My HV generator use a self-oscillator with two 2N3055 and the required working voltage at the INPUT is at least 8.5V DC for about 10kV at the output, so, I have not been able to do measurement below this value. > 11,900 1 > (10,900) (0) <-- zero thrust below a "threshold voltage" > > This has nothing to do with your oscillator. It's only an extrapolation > based upon the behavior of the thrust. It indicates that, as the KV > is reduced, the thrust will fall to zero NOT at 0KV, but while the KV > is still large. If your power supply is incapable of producing low > voltage, then you cannot measure the zero-thrust voltage directly, > you can only predict it by extending the graph downwards. > I fully agree with you about your extrapolation, as you notice my ELG-Balance is sensitive but not enough to measure below 1cg.... The best way, will be to explore a higher voltage range to know if the curve is rectilinear of exponential. Thanks for your comments, Best Regards Jean-Louis From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 27 01:19:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA07716; Sat, 27 May 2000 01:18:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 01:18:48 -0700 Message-ID: <000f01bfc7b3$651dfa00$0100a8c0@earthlink.net> From: "Z" To: References: <20000526.195501.-380903.0.tv@juno.com> Subject: Re: [FG]: Hutchison (disappointment) Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 01:13:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"veGVN3.0.Tu1.eJuBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15340 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com > No he did not say anything about sound, nor have I heard that from anyone > else > but who knows ? I know that water falling from a waterfall converts it's energy when it hits the rocks below. The velocity goes from big to small almost instantly, and the energy removed is converted into heat and sound. So it always seemed to me that putting the sound and heat back in should make the water go back up. There is also a semi-famous story/urban legend about some monks that would stand in a circle and chant in order to make a stone levitate. Hutchison used multiple frequency sources which made me think that a beat (or is it bead) frequency was a possibility. That's one of the explanations I've had for the squealing of the Tesla coil. Hakuna Matata...Z From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 27 05:05:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA04339; Sat, 27 May 2000 05:04:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 05:04:32 -0700 Message-ID: <000901bfc7d3$d10732c0$3284a7ca@globalfreeway.com.au> From: "John Conran" To: References: <391DAD0B.6814B6AC@csrlink.net> Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 22:05:06 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"_ulMH2.0.U31.GdxBv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15341 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Re: How to get water to flow uphill Couldn't you use capillary action to raise the water? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Johnston" To: "Michael S. Johnston" Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2000 5:29 AM Subject: How to get water to flow uphill > Hi All, > I'd like to see if the water tower drawing has any chance whatsoever > of working in the real world. The drawing represents the furthest that I > could take the idea relying solely on the capacity of my own brain. > Normally I could have done better but after that accident I had a lot of > brain damage and so I can only function at about an IQ of 145 now. Sad I > know, just think about what I could have done... > Let's take a look at the various components of the Water Tower > device that I mailed in to the lists. I didn't think that there would be > this much debate about the more obvious features of it but since there > has been ok, I'll put up or shut up. Either way will be a surprise to me > as I haven't worked it out yet either. > First I want to consider the fuel return system. This would consist > of the catch basin under the last water wheel, the tube/pipe that > stretches from the catch basin up to the pump at the top of the tank (at > the top of the system) and the pump itself. > In the responses that I got to the original post the main argument > has been that it takes just as much power to get the water back to the > top as what you could get out of it on the way down. This is true. I > don't have any problem with that statement. Unfortunately, in the > context it is used, it ignores the fact that there are quite a few ways > to modify the way in which you apply or create power. That is the > problem. > In this case you have a given quantity of water that you want to > move from point a to point b at a specific rate of flow. To do this a > certain amount of work, in the form of an upward push or pull, is > necessary. We don't have to worry yet about what the water has done or > can do on it's way down from the holding tank. That can be addressed > later. For now let's just figure out the easiest way to get the water up > there. > So how do we do it? Do we create a race of cyborg slaves to run up > and down several flights of steps with teacups full of water? Or maybe > we could form an old fashioned "bucket brigade"? Or perhaps we could > stretch a rope from the catch basin back to the tank on top and let the > water "wick" it's way up? Or we could pump it. > I guess we'll work with pumping it because that is the way I designed > it. Besides you'd have to feed the cyborgs anyway. The main objections > have been that pumping it requires a lot of energy. I agree. If the pump > was in the catch basin at the bottom it would have to pump up against > the column of water in the tube/pipe and the taller the column was the > more the water in it would weigh and the harder it would have to pump > and the more energy that would be required to get it up to where you > want it to do your work. > This argument is, as I said, valid. It is very simple. However it > totally misses the point. That is really it's major drawback. I designed > this whole thing to be simple enough that anyone who has ever taken high > school physics could understand it. But apparently some people don't. Oh > well, if I have to explain it point by point I will. > If we take our basic physics books and turn to the section that > deals with the properties of gasses we will learn about air pressure. > The way that we can use air pressure to help us move the water is in > there. We see that air pressure is 14.7 pounds sq/in. This means that > air is pushing on everything and unless there was an equal force pushing > back you would either explode or implode. > Let's consider a barometer. From studying it we learn that if a > long vertical tube is inserted into a liquid and the air is pumped from > the top of the tube the liquid will be pushed up into the tube by the > force of the air pressure pushing on the surface of the water in the > vessel below (the catch basin). The liquid will rise until the pressure > in the remaining air in the tube is equal to the air pressure outside > the tube at that height. If there is no air remaining in the tube the > liquid will rise as far as the pressure on the surface below will allow > it to. > In other words if there is 10 pounds pushing from below then 10 > pounds of liquid will rise into the vacuum tube. To actually figure out > the amount of push you can get from below you need to do some math. We > need to multiply standard air pressure by the surface dimensions of the > catch basin (in inches). Let's do an example. If our catch basin is ten > feet by five feet our problem would look like this: > (14.7 lb/in2)(120")(60")= 105,840 pounds of pressure pushing down on the > surface of the catch basin. > How can we use this force? Can we use it? Sure we can! Does anyone > know about hydraulics? Well that is sort of like this except in reverse. > We are going from a large area to a small one. We do have a closed > system from the basin up to the pump which sucks the air out of the > pipe/tube. So then whatever force is exerted on the surface of the water > in our basin would be transmitted equally to all parts of the system, > including the water in the tube, due to the lack of air pressure within > the tube. By this reasoning a column of water could enter the tube and > rise up into the tube as far as it can until it is exerting a force of > 105,840 pounds back down. Depending on the diameter of the tube this > could be quite high! > For example, a cubic foot of water weighs 67 pounds. If we had a > pipe with a diameter of twelve inches we could divide the 105,840 pounds > of pressure by 67 pounds per cubic foot and see that we could support a > column of water 12 inches wide by 12 inches high (a rough cubic foot) > 1579.7014 feet into the air, just by maintaining that vacuum! You can > put quite a few water wheels in 1579.7014 feet of space. > So if, by this method, we figure how high we want to raise the > water and build our catch basin with the proper dimensions and get a > pump that can move water at the rate we need then your pump would > technically be working no harder at raising the water and pumping it > through itself than it would be if it were simply transferring water > between two tanks that were both on the ground. By using air pressure to > help us we have effectively negated the forces of gravity! > See? I'm not making any great revelations here. I am simply using > undeniably known physical laws. In this case it does indeed require > energy to run the pump that moves water uphill. The advantage is that by > using air pressure to help us we can use a pump that requires much LESS > energy than otherwise. > Are we ok with the fuel recovery system now? I hope so! > Next Installment: The holding tank and first turbine. > MJ > P.S: For a real world example, this process is used to unload ships and > railcars full of sand or grain. A pipe is put into the material and a > blower motor sucks air out of the pipe. The material is transferred this > way. You'd be surprised how fast you can move 50,000 pounds of grain. > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 27 09:11:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA23653; Sat, 27 May 2000 09:10:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 09:10:28 -0700 Message-ID: <20000527160955.94436.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [63.28.80.136] From: "Timothy Flytch" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: Re: How to get water to flow uphill Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 09:09:54 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"A9Qou2.0.Pn5.pD_Bv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15342 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com >From: "John Conran" >Couldn't you use capillary action to raise the water? Ohhhh... A subject I think about on a daily bases... I have sever asthma and use a nebulizer multiple times a day, everyday... The nebulizer that I use... uses just that... It is a miny pulse jet engine driven by ultrasonics... In the 65 KHz range... It is simply a small tube that vibrates and causes the liquid to be trust upwards towards a "micro screen" That acts both as a one way valve and the bottom of a water fall... Which then smashes the stream into 1to 7 micron sized particles(a fine mist)... But it move the liquid meds up about 1 inch... 5ml in about 8min... However this is optimised for making a mist not for speed... But I think it gives up some real solid numbers for a starting point... http://www.omronhealthcare.com/flash/frames/resp.htm It's the top one... Timothy... ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 27 09:58:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA05323; Sat, 27 May 2000 09:58:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 09:58:26 -0700 From: "Kevin Weaver" To: "Freenrg-L@Eskimo. Com" Subject: RE: [FG]: Quick & dirty ELG-hat test Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 11:55:52 -0500 Message-ID: <000001bfc7fc$6ab38860$0300a8c0@home> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"r4FKD1.0._I1.nw_Bv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15343 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Keith Nagel [mailto:sparky@dtech-net.com] > Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2000 12:54 AM > To: William Beaty > Cc: Freenrg-L > Subject: RE: [FG]: Quick & dirty ELG-hat test > > > Bill writes... > >Yeah, if there was a big cloud of ions hovering over the whole > experiment, > >it could apply forces to electrodes. > > I had more in mind that ion streamers from the blades > would affect the balance. But indeed a large > cloud of ions would cause problems. > > >WIth corona dope you can always miss a spot. Ions are created by small > >regions of plasma (usually from discharges at sharp edges.) Only if the I wonder how fishing line would work in place of the blades > > Yes, but the point is to supress ionization. The bag permits > ionization to occur, it just is supposed to contain it. > Another approach would be to suspend the hat in > mineral oil. > > To me, the data says that thrust occurs during the flow of > current, and is correlated to it. Its been my experience > that >10kv is when corona starts to become an issue. It would be interesting to see what it would do in a glass sphere filled with argon or helium or the such. Would it make any sort of plasma discharge ? > > Lacking a calibration test of the balance, without the DUT, > where are we? > > K. > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 27 10:45:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA21338; Sat, 27 May 2000 10:45:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 10:45:13 -0700 Message-ID: <3930093B.2C9A6C1C@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 10:43:23 -0700 From: eks1 Reply-To: eks1@earthlink.net Organization: Systems Research Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,en-GB,en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robin van Spaandonk , "freenrg-L@eskimo.com" Subject: Re: [FG]: [Fwd: Re: Real good evidence of H2 the only fuel !] References: <392EBF57.8DCB957D@harti.com> <392ECC85.DEB6C569@earthlink.net> <1ubuis0vci0ffqg7if7m2b9mfjmn43ft4c@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"gVgTr.0.ID5.fc0Cv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15344 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to eks1's message of Fri, 26 May 2000 12:12:05 -0700: > [snip] > > Hi, > > I don't suppose you looked into running ceramic engines on H2 did you? > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk Sure, we looked into it - but remember this was circa 1976-77. Ceramic technology was just beginning to be investigated. At the time the materials were very expensive but GE, Lycoming and Rolls Royce were experimenting with ceramics for turbine blade hot section parts. A few sets of ceramic pistons were tried with various results. Bottom line: using a rotary engine, with both the chamber and rotor made from ceramic materials and some teflon apex seals seemed to be the most promising. Rotary design Otto-Cycle engines made in this manner seem to be the ideal match for H2, the rotary design loses more of the waste-heat and the ceramic chamber/rotor combo isnt as prone to embrittlment as would be their metallic counterparts. By applying scaling law, one finds that upward from 1000 bhp, the single-shaft Brayton-Cycle gas turbine is more efficient and could give excellent mileage as well as performance undreamed of when using Otto-Cycle engines, dragsters aside! ;) -- --- "When it comes to paradigms, you must shift for yourself!" - Anon |-----------------------| | Systems Research Ltd. |------->"Any real-world system is more.. |-----------------------| ..than the mere sum of it's parts!" Erik K. Sorgatz (KB6LUY) http://home.earthlink.net/~eks1 From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 27 11:59:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA06305; Sat, 27 May 2000 11:59:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 11:59:15 -0700 From: myagent2@home.com Message-ID: <005801bfc80d$fafbcfc0$0100a8c0@alsv1.occa.home.com> To: References: <39270EF3.1020EF42@harti.com> <392C0125.FC3D3A86@harti.com> Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 12:01:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"5RdrI3.0.KY1.3i1Cv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15345 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: I Challenge the group... I think we want to believe in these certain things, so we accept claims without evidence. People sometimes tell stories. I will not. I will document the hell out of *my* experiments. If anything comes of them, I will post everything. Pictures, Video, Audio, Plans, Logs, EVERYTHING! If only the rest of us would start doing the same. This is an open challenge. Prove it. If you need help getting your analog records into digital form, I will be happy to digitize and post for you. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 27 12:33:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA15637; Sat, 27 May 2000 12:32:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 12:32:36 -0700 Message-ID: <39302376.AA5E94A0@csrlink.net> Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 15:35:18 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: Re: How to get water to flow uphill References: <391DAD0B.6814B6AC@csrlink.net> <000901bfc7d3$d10732c0$3284a7ca@globalfreeway.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"VP57g2.0.Cq3.IB2Cv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15346 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com HI John, I suppose, trees move a lot of water to great heights that way don't they? No matter how you get it up there the point is that it can be done without using as much energy (in the form of electricity) as you could generate by bringing it back down. MJ John Conran wrote: > Couldn't you use capillary action to raise the water? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Johnston" > To: "Michael S. Johnston" > Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2000 5:29 AM > Subject: How to get water to flow uphill > > > Hi All, > > I'd like to see if the water tower drawing has any chance whatsoever > > of working in the real world. The drawing represents the furthest that I > > could take the idea relying solely on the capacity of my own brain. > > Normally I could have done better but after that accident I had a lot of > > brain damage and so I can only function at about an IQ of 145 now. Sad I > > know, just think about what I could have done... > > Let's take a look at the various components of the Water Tower > > device that I mailed in to the lists. I didn't think that there would be > > this much debate about the more obvious features of it but since there > > has been ok, I'll put up or shut up. Either way will be a surprise to me > > as I haven't worked it out yet either. > > First I want to consider the fuel return system. This would consist > > of the catch basin under the last water wheel, the tube/pipe that > > stretches from the catch basin up to the pump at the top of the tank (at > > the top of the system) and the pump itself. > > In the responses that I got to the original post the main argument > > has been that it takes just as much power to get the water back to the > > top as what you could get out of it on the way down. This is true. I > > don't have any problem with that statement. Unfortunately, in the > > context it is used, it ignores the fact that there are quite a few ways > > to modify the way in which you apply or create power. That is the > > problem. > > In this case you have a given quantity of water that you want to > > move from point a to point b at a specific rate of flow. To do this a > > certain amount of work, in the form of an upward push or pull, is > > necessary. We don't have to worry yet about what the water has done or > > can do on it's way down from the holding tank. That can be addressed > > later. For now let's just figure out the easiest way to get the water up > > there. > > So how do we do it? Do we create a race of cyborg slaves to run up > > and down several flights of steps with teacups full of water? Or maybe > > we could form an old fashioned "bucket brigade"? Or perhaps we could > > stretch a rope from the catch basin back to the tank on top and let the > > water "wick" it's way up? Or we could pump it. > > I guess we'll work with pumping it because that is the way I designed > > it. Besides you'd have to feed the cyborgs anyway. The main objections > > have been that pumping it requires a lot of energy. I agree. If the pump > > was in the catch basin at the bottom it would have to pump up against > > the column of water in the tube/pipe and the taller the column was the > > more the water in it would weigh and the harder it would have to pump > > and the more energy that would be required to get it up to where you > > want it to do your work. > > This argument is, as I said, valid. It is very simple. However it > > totally misses the point. That is really it's major drawback. I designed > > this whole thing to be simple enough that anyone who has ever taken high > > school physics could understand it. But apparently some people don't. Oh > > well, if I have to explain it point by point I will. > > If we take our basic physics books and turn to the section that > > deals with the properties of gasses we will learn about air pressure. > > The way that we can use air pressure to help us move the water is in > > there. We see that air pressure is 14.7 pounds sq/in. This means that > > air is pushing on everything and unless there was an equal force pushing > > back you would either explode or implode. > > Let's consider a barometer. From studying it we learn that if a > > long vertical tube is inserted into a liquid and the air is pumped from > > the top of the tube the liquid will be pushed up into the tube by the > > force of the air pressure pushing on the surface of the water in the > > vessel below (the catch basin). The liquid will rise until the pressure > > in the remaining air in the tube is equal to the air pressure outside > > the tube at that height. If there is no air remaining in the tube the > > liquid will rise as far as the pressure on the surface below will allow > > it to. > > In other words if there is 10 pounds pushing from below then 10 > > pounds of liquid will rise into the vacuum tube. To actually figure out > > the amount of push you can get from below you need to do some math. We > > need to multiply standard air pressure by the surface dimensions of the > > catch basin (in inches). Let's do an example. If our catch basin is ten > > feet by five feet our problem would look like this: > > (14.7 lb/in2)(120")(60")= 105,840 pounds of pressure pushing down on the > > surface of the catch basin. > > How can we use this force? Can we use it? Sure we can! Does anyone > > know about hydraulics? Well that is sort of like this except in reverse. > > We are going from a large area to a small one. We do have a closed > > system from the basin up to the pump which sucks the air out of the > > pipe/tube. So then whatever force is exerted on the surface of the water > > in our basin would be transmitted equally to all parts of the system, > > including the water in the tube, due to the lack of air pressure within > > the tube. By this reasoning a column of water could enter the tube and > > rise up into the tube as far as it can until it is exerting a force of > > 105,840 pounds back down. Depending on the diameter of the tube this > > could be quite high! > > For example, a cubic foot of water weighs 67 pounds. If we had a > > pipe with a diameter of twelve inches we could divide the 105,840 pounds > > of pressure by 67 pounds per cubic foot and see that we could support a > > column of water 12 inches wide by 12 inches high (a rough cubic foot) > > 1579.7014 feet into the air, just by maintaining that vacuum! You can > > put quite a few water wheels in 1579.7014 feet of space. > > So if, by this method, we figure how high we want to raise the > > water and build our catch basin with the proper dimensions and get a > > pump that can move water at the rate we need then your pump would > > technically be working no harder at raising the water and pumping it > > through itself than it would be if it were simply transferring water > > between two tanks that were both on the ground. By using air pressure to > > help us we have effectively negated the forces of gravity! > > See? I'm not making any great revelations here. I am simply using > > undeniably known physical laws. In this case it does indeed require > > energy to run the pump that moves water uphill. The advantage is that by > > using air pressure to help us we can use a pump that requires much LESS > > energy than otherwise. > > Are we ok with the fuel recovery system now? I hope so! > > Next Installment: The holding tank and first turbine. > > MJ > > P.S: For a real world example, this process is used to unload ships and > > railcars full of sand or grain. A pipe is put into the material and a > > blower motor sucks air out of the pipe. The material is transferred this > > way. You'd be surprised how fast you can move 50,000 pounds of grain. > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 27 12:40:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA18041; Sat, 27 May 2000 12:39:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 12:39:48 -0700 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: [FG]: I Challenge the group... Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 15:53:40 -0400 Message-ID: <20000527195340359.AAA245@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"AWxv01.0.oP4.3I2Cv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15347 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com myagent2 writes: >This is an open challenge. > >Prove it. > >If you need help getting your analog records into digital form, I will be >happy to digitize and post for you. Welcome to the discussion group, myagent2! Thanks for the offer to scan and digitize, too. What are you working on or what are your interests? Most of us are pretty challenged already BTW, so we are pretty good there, but we'll be glad to help with whatever you have going if we can. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 27 13:49:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA04836; Sat, 27 May 2000 13:49:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 13:49:10 -0700 Message-ID: <393033A8.3DEFE69D@csrlink.net> Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 16:44:24 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael S. Johnston" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"HG1-t3.0.KB1.6J3Cv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15348 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Is Water An Electrolyte? Hi All, During the last several months I have been doing quite a bit of reading about water. One of the most interesting things that I found out was that there is quite a bit of variation from book to book regarding the most basic attributes of water. These aren't pseudo science books written by amateurs with a cause to prove (or product to sell) either. They are, for the most part, college level textbooks on chemistry, physics and electricity. I guess that explains why there has been such disagreement on these lists when I happen to state something from one of these books. It looks like we are all taught something different in this matter depending on which book our instructors decided to use! If something as simple as whether or not water conducts electricity is taught in such contradictory fashion from book to book and only one version can be right, then how much of the rest of the information that we are taught regarding the physical sciences is any more accurate? To prove my point I would like to quote some statements directly out of the books to which I refer and let you be the judge. 1) " Electrolysis is used to break down water, which is a compound of Hydrogen and oxygen, into it's component gasses. The difficulty here, however, is that PURE WATER IS NOT AN ELECTROLYTE AND WILL NOT CONDUCT ELECTRICITY." From: Electricity for Electricians By: Abraham Marcus Special printing for the National Joint Apprenticeship Committee for the Electrical Industry Printed By: Prentice-Hall,inc. Englewood Cliffs, NJ 2) "The cell then, consists of two electrodes.....and AN ELECTROLYTE that is for the most part distilled (pure) WATER. There is some Sulfuric Acid mixed with the water but in the uncharged state IT'S PRESENCE IS INSIGNIFICANT." Electricity one-seven By: Harry Mileat, Editor in Chief Hayden Book Company inc. 3) "In the preceding discussions it has been assumed that water is a non-conductor of electricity in conductivity determinations. It IS FOUND HOWEVER, BY PRECISE MEASUREMENT THAT EVEN HIGHLY PURIFIED WATER DOES CONDUCT ELECTRICITY TO A SLIGHT EXTENT. IT MUST BE THAT WATER ITSELF IS DISASSOCIATED INTO POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE IONS AND SHOULD BE CLASSIFIED AS A WEAK ELECTROLYTE." From: Chemistry By: Michell J. Sienko and Robert A. Plane Assoc. Prof. of Chem Asst. Prof. of Chem. Cornell Univ. Cornell Univ. Printed By: McGraw-Hill Book Company Ny,Toronto,London 4) "A Plate of clean lead and a plate of patina were put into PURE WATER. THERE WAS IMMEDIATELY A POWERFUL CURRENT PRODUCED FROM THE LEAD THROUGH THE WATER TO THE PATINA..........Here no action of acid or alkali on the oxide formed from the lead could supply the electricity: IT WAS DUE SOLELY TO THE OXIDATION OF THE METAL (BY THE WATER)." "The water, as water, cannot conduct electricity OR AT LEAST ONLY SO SMALL A PROPORTION THAT IT IS MERELY AN INCIDENTAL EFFECT." Michael Farady Letters to the Royal Society Circa 1834 As you can easily see, any of these sources of information could be cited as a valid source of information by someone who wanted to "prove" a point. Unfortunately there are two seemingly entirely opposite conclusions here which are both presented by various, credentialed authors as being equally valid Both sides cannot be correct and so how is anyone supposed to do any valid further research if even these most basic concepts must be proved or disproved all over again before they even start? MJ From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 27 14:26:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA13668; Sat, 27 May 2000 14:25:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 14:25:39 -0700 From: myagent2@home.com Message-ID: <009d01bfc822$6e124e80$0100a8c0@alsv1.occa.home.com> To: References: <20000527195340359.AAA245@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Subject: Re: [FG]: I Challenge the group... Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 14:27:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"VQq_L1.0.SL3.Ir3Cv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15349 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com A little about me: I am currently designing my workspace. Because I've got just one room for all of my interests, I've got to be very creative with my use of space. Current obsessions: I am insanely obsessed with any technology that can aid in making an idea into something tangible, home-brew devices, waves, resonance, magnets, coils, capacitors, compressed air power, splitting water, data-mining, Genetic Algorithms, Evolutionary Computing, how do we think?, multimedia, animatronics, thinkers, doers, tree houses, genetics, the Internet, cultures, "Art", and really sour candy. Some items I first need to acquire: - 100MHz Analog Oscilloscope - Dose Meter - Geiger Counter Near-term construction projects: - High current variable DC power supply - Poor Man's Spectrum Analyzer - Function Generator (1Hz -> 20MHz) - High Voltage power supply (adjustable?) - Web site for documenting and discussing experiments (mine and yours) Some planned experiments: - That darn gravity capacitor - What is a scalar wave? - Efficient water splitting BTW, I got a 404 error when trying to access the page in your signature. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael T Huffman" To: Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2000 12:53 PM Subject: Re: [FG]: I Challenge the group... > myagent2 writes: > >This is an open challenge. > > > >Prove it. > > > >If you need help getting your analog records into digital form, I will be > >happy to digitize and post for you. > > Welcome to the discussion group, myagent2! Thanks for the offer to scan and > digitize, too. What are you working on or what are your interests? Most of > us are pretty challenged already BTW, so we are pretty good there, but we'll > be glad to help with whatever you have going if we can. > > Knuke > Michael T. Huffman > Huffman Technology Company > 1121 Dustin Drive > The Villages, Florida 32159 > (352)259-1276 > knuke@LCIA.COM > http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 27 14:43:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA19085; Sat, 27 May 2000 14:42:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 14:42:43 -0700 Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 17:41:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Jim Uban Message-Id: <200005272141.RAA16726@world.std.com> To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"j4wU-3.0.2g4.I54Cv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15350 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Hutchinson effect I was lucky enough to attend the INE'94 where John Hutchinson and George Hathaway gave a joint presentation about the Hutchinson effect(s). This was truly the most amazing presentation and set of information I've ever experienced. G. Hathaway is a consulting engineer (EE) in Canada, and worked with Hutchinson for some time to help quantify the effects or learn how to make them more reliable (that program was a failure) and to generate external interest, for further research support. George H showed some of the videos of the effects, the levitations being quite mind- boggling, ranging from globs of ice cream pulling out of a container an flying up, to a very heavy cannon ball floating about 18" off the wooden surface and occasionally rotating a bit - quite errie! John H presented as well, from his point of view of tuning the apparatus, which was always a sort of feeling thing which he had to settle into - he apparantly can sense the fields/ions and has learned how to get the apparatus into its 'groove'. Even so, it may take him days to get the equipment to respond. Who knows what external variables go into it, such as humidity. Particularly interesting were the descriptions of effects on materials, mostly metals. Some alloys would start so separate into layers of distinct elements. Steel rods would break apart with no heating effects. Several of the materials were brought along for inspection by the attendees. I held a standard extruded bar of aluminum, normal except for the piece of wood which was now embedded in it, the latter not having been heated to charring, nor the aluminum showing signs of melting. Another aluminum bar had been milled down to the stainless steel table knife which was now half embedded in the bar, again with no evidence of melting in the case of the aluminum. A copper bus bar had expended in the center into 4 separate bars joining at each end. The whole presentation was impressive and left no doubt that here is a wide range of effects, presently 'unknown', of electromagnetics on various materials. Possibly this goes beyond EM, involving the researcher's consciousness as well, as only when John H was present did the machinery ever fully produce the effects. On the other hand, John had learned to tune the equipment over the course of many years. Also pointed out was the the lab was a pack rat's accumulation of every possible electromagnetic device. John H was always inclined to add more equipment, not pare it down to hone in on the component sources of the effect. Just his nature - having fun! The proceedings of this are available: http://www.padrak.com/ine/INE5.html as well as the videos/audios of the conference. The list shows Hutchinson only, but both he and Hathaway presented. (Hathaway also had another presentation). So, I don't know if the videos are separate for their two halves of the Hutchinson material, as I haven't ordered the videos. Jim From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 27 15:23:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA31469; Sat, 27 May 2000 15:23:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 15:23:00 -0700 From: dtmiller@midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 22:23:18 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Reply-To: dtmiller@midiowa.net Message-ID: <393248f7.5092172@mail.midiowa.net> References: <391F22D9.6AE813D2@csrlink.net> <391ED649.6BC13AFC@worldnet.att.net> <391F647F.FC7D8D4B@csrlink.net> In-Reply-To: <391F647F.FC7D8D4B@csrlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA31447 Resent-Message-ID: <"u8xHf1.0.Yh7.4h4Cv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15351 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Re: FNG: Re: "The Rest of the Story" Hi Mike, Two weeks ago I promised I'd send an analysis of water storage as an energy source (and possible free energy) . Here it is: ************************************ O f f g r i d O n l i n e May 3, 2000 Offgrid-Online is published each Wednesday and distributed to people who've asked to receive it. Thanks for joining us! If you ever need to unsubscribe, simply send a blank email from the address you used for subscription (listed below) to or use the online form at . For you newer subscribers, back issues of this letter are uploaded to our website monthly. Follow the link at the bottom of the subscription page to see the letters you've missed. ============================================================= Energy Balance - "Battery Pond" As you'll remember from the article on wind power, one of the problems is storing the excess power created by short bursts of high wind so that it can be used during long periods of calm. This requires an energy storage system that is very large compared to what would be required for a generator, solar or hydro system. Critical would be the cost of that storage. Deep cycle batteries (Trojan T105s in particular) cost $70 for .675 KWH of usable capacity (20 hour rate, 50% discharge assumed). This is a cost of 103.7 dollars per KWH of stored energy. Is a battery the only way to store energy? Not hardly. Today let's consider a really weird idea that combines our wind and water power systems. What we're gona' try is to use the excess power from a wind generator to pump water uphill to a reservoir where we can later use it to power a hydro-power generator. >From the onset we should realize that this scheme is very wasteful of wind energy: we lose energy when we convert wind to electricity; we lose more when we use the excess to drive a pump to move water uphill; and we lose some more when we flow the water through our hydro generator. If we get 60% in the wind machine, 60% in the hydro plant, and use 50% in pumping, we would capture only 20% of what was in the wind to start with. Why would we do that? Because our other alternative is to just throw it all away. This is only a scheme to deal with EXCESS power. So, we are not all that concerned with efficiency. Our primary objective is to make a really big battery that is cheap to build and has zero maintenance. That way we can hold that excess power without having to spend a fortune on Trojan batteries. Here's how it works. We would need a large source of water somewhere on our property, probably from a pond or river. We will also need an elevation gain of say 50 to 100 feet so we can build a water tank high above a hydro generator. In periods of very high wind, after we have charged our batteries and done whatever else we do with plentiful power, we will start pumping water from our low land pond to our hill top reservoir. We'll keep pumping until we run out of pond, fill our reservoir, or lose the wind. In periods of little or no wind, we can drain our reservoir back into our pond by way of a water turbine to generate power. By the way, we might also be using our reservoir to provide irrigation or fire protection, but that is another matter. There is nothing technically difficult about this idea. It can easily and quickly be tacked together from off-the-self parts. The real question is does it make economic sense? To answer that question we must compare the cost of energy stored in our reservoir to the cost of storing energy in T105 batteries. Let's do an example. Suppose we have a 50 foot drop from our reservoir to our hydro power plant. How much does it cost to store one kilo-watt-hour of electricity? Recall the equation for hydro-power from the Nov 11, 1999 feature article: P = ( Q * H * E ) / 11.8 Since Q is in cubic feet per second, then the energy produced by a single cubic foot of water is: T = ( V * H * E ) / 11.8 where T is total energy in kilo-watt-seconds and V is the volume of water in cubic feet. Converting to the more conventional kilo-watt-hours(KWH) gives: T = ( V * H * E ) / 42480 Given an efficiency (E) of .6 and our drop (H) of 50 feet we have: T = ( V * 50 * .6 ) / 42480 = ( 30 * V ) / 42480 = V / 1416 What this tells us is that one KWH of electric production from our hydro plant uses 1416 cubic feet of water from our reservoir. That's about 11000 gallons. If our tank cost is 2 cents per gallon, not unreasonable for ferro-cement, then our cost to store a KWH of electricity is $220. Ouch! Trojan batteries don't look so bad after all. For our reservoir to "make cents," we would have to have a drop of more than 100 feet. To get a storage cost of half the T105 standard, requires a drop of 200 feet. Not at all promising. And there are other problems as well. Let's take a look at the wind generator and pumping side of the system. To store a KWH of energy in a 200 foot high reservoir takes 354 cubic feet, or about 2725 gallons, of water. To store a KWH of electricity in one hour requires a 90 psi pump that delivers 45 gallons per minute. This is a non-trivial pump. What if we just collect rain water instead of pumping from a pond? The scheme still doesn't work. The problem is the cost of the tank, not the cost of pumping up hill. Ultimately this idea does not "make cents" because gravity is too weak. If gravity were stronger, then the force of falling water would be greater and the power generated from it would be higher. Or what if water was heavier (denser actually)? Suppose we pumped mercury [Ed: Alert! Don't do this!!] instead of water? Mercury weighs 845.6 pounds per cubic foot, about 13.2 times the density of water, so our storage tank needs to be less than one tenth the size and cost. Back to reality: we're on earth and what we have is water, so can we make this idea work? In a word, no. Even if we can build a tank for 2 cents per gallon of capacity and place it 200 feet above our hydroelectric generator, we still have the expense of a pump to fill the tank, which will likely cost as much as the tank itself. And what about that pond? Where did it come from? If it is reliably full of water, why don't we just place a hydro plant upstream of the pond? Not every idea stands up to detailed analysis. This is one that doesn't make the cut. But the only way to tell the good ideas from the not-so-good, is to do the math. ************************************ -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moines (CDP, KB0ZDF) From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 27 17:01:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA19246; Sat, 27 May 2000 17:01:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 17:01:07 -0700 Message-ID: <001a01bfc82e$6505e840$0200a8c6@stealth> From: "R.U. Sirius" To: Subject: Re: [FG]: Hutchinson effect Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 18:53:36 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"JPVNn1.0.Yi4.276Cv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15352 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com I have not done much research on Hutchinson and his work, but something in this post did catch my eye. I am by no means in a position to judge rather his effects are real or not, but I noticed the part you mentioned about the kitchen knife and the alum bar being fused together. I'm trying to picture myself in his shoes. Being able to produce an effect with unknown results. Levitating, objects shooting off, fusing, etc... I wonder with all these unknowns if I would ever leave a kitchen knife laying around while producing the effect. Seems a bit dangerous to me. -----Original Message----- From: Jim Uban To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Saturday, May 27, 2000 5:45 PM Subject: [FG]: Hutchinson effect > I was lucky enough to attend the INE'94 >where John Hutchinson and George Hathaway gave >a joint presentation about the Hutchinson effect(s). > This was truly the most amazing presentation >and set of information I've ever experienced. > G. Hathaway is a consulting engineer (EE) in >Canada, and worked with Hutchinson for some time >to help quantify the effects or learn how to make >them more reliable (that program was a failure) >and to generate external interest, for further >research support. > George H showed some of the videos of >the effects, the levitations being quite mind- >boggling, ranging from globs of ice cream pulling >out of a container an flying up, to a very heavy >cannon ball floating about 18" off the wooden >surface and occasionally rotating a bit - quite >errie! > John H presented as well, from his point >of view of tuning the apparatus, which was always >a sort of feeling thing which he had to settle >into - he apparantly can sense the fields/ions >and has learned how to get the apparatus into >its 'groove'. Even so, it may take him days to >get the equipment to respond. Who knows what >external variables go into it, such as humidity. > Particularly interesting were the descriptions >of effects on materials, mostly metals. Some alloys >would start so separate into layers of distinct elements. >Steel rods would break apart with no heating effects. >Several of the materials were brought along for >inspection by the attendees. I held a standard >extruded bar of aluminum, normal except for the >piece of wood which was now embedded in it, the >latter not having been heated to charring, nor >the aluminum showing signs of melting. Another >aluminum bar had been milled down to the stainless >steel table knife which was now half embedded in >the bar, again with no evidence of melting in >the case of the aluminum. A copper bus bar >had expended in the center into 4 separate >bars joining at each end. > The whole presentation was impressive >and left no doubt that here is a wide range >of effects, presently 'unknown', of electromagnetics >on various materials. Possibly this goes beyond >EM, involving the researcher's consciousness as >well, as only when John H was present did the >machinery ever fully produce the effects. On >the other hand, John had learned to tune the >equipment over the course of many years. > Also pointed out was the the lab was >a pack rat's accumulation of every possible >electromagnetic device. John H was always >inclined to add more equipment, not pare it >down to hone in on the component sources of >the effect. Just his nature - having fun! > The proceedings of this are available: >http://www.padrak.com/ine/INE5.html > as well as the videos/audios of the >conference. The list shows Hutchinson only, >but both he and Hathaway presented. (Hathaway >also had another presentation). So, I don't >know if the videos are separate for their >two halves of the Hutchinson material, as >I haven't ordered the videos. > Jim > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 27 17:10:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA22750; Sat, 27 May 2000 17:09:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 17:09:50 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: "freenrg-L@eskimo.com" Subject: Re: [FG]: [Fwd: Re: Real good evidence of H2 the only fuel !] Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 10:09:12 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <392EBF57.8DCB957D@harti.com> <392ECC85.DEB6C569@earthlink.net> <1ubuis0vci0ffqg7if7m2b9mfjmn43ft4c@4ax.com> <3930093B.2C9A6C1C@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <3930093B.2C9A6C1C@earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA22550 Resent-Message-ID: <"lcT9N2.0.NZ5.DF6Cv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15353 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com In reply to eks1's message of Sat, 27 May 2000 10:43:23 -0700: [snip] >were tried with various results. Bottom line: using a rotary engine, with both >the >chamber and rotor made from ceramic materials and some teflon apex seals >seemed to be the most promising. Rotary design Otto-Cycle engines made in >this manner seem to be the ideal match for H2, the rotary design loses more of >the waste-heat and the ceramic chamber/rotor combo isnt as prone to embrittlment > >as would be their metallic counterparts. [snip] Actually I was wondering about the temperatures achieved in ceramic engines, and whether or not you may have noticed anything unexpected in regard to fuel economy when using hydrogen fuel. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 27 17:33:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA27419; Sat, 27 May 2000 17:32:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 17:32:20 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: Is Water An Electrolyte? Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 10:31:40 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <393033A8.3DEFE69D@csrlink.net> In-Reply-To: <393033A8.3DEFE69D@csrlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA27380 Resent-Message-ID: <"uJHEt2.0.Gi6.Ka6Cv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15354 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com In reply to Mike Johnston's message of Sat, 27 May 2000 16:44:24 -0400: [snip] >1) " Electrolysis is used to break down water, which is a compound of >Hydrogen and oxygen, into it's component gasses. The difficulty here, >however, is that PURE WATER IS NOT AN ELECTROLYTE AND WILL NOT CONDUCT >ELECTRICITY." This is somewhat generalised. Pure water only conducts very slightly, relative to water that has other ionic substances added to it. (The ratio is on the order of a million times). >From: Electricity for Electricians >By: Abraham Marcus >Special printing for the National Joint Apprenticeship Committee for the >Electrical Industry >Printed By: Prentice-Hall,inc. >Englewood Cliffs, NJ > >2) "The cell then, consists of two electrodes.....and AN ELECTROLYTE >that is for the most part distilled (pure) WATER. There is some Sulfuric >Acid mixed with the water but in the uncharged state IT'S PRESENCE IS >INSIGNIFICANT." This text probably relates to batteries, and the significance of the sulfuric acid that is meant here, probably pertains to the energy content of the battery, rather than the conductivity of the solution. For the record, adding sulfuric acid to the water improves the conductivity many fold, as mentioned above. >Electricity one-seven >By: Harry Mileat, Editor in Chief >Hayden Book Company inc. > >3) "In the preceding discussions it has been assumed that water is a >non-conductor of electricity in conductivity determinations. It IS FOUND >HOWEVER, BY PRECISE MEASUREMENT THAT EVEN HIGHLY PURIFIED WATER DOES >CONDUCT ELECTRICITY TO A SLIGHT EXTENT. IT MUST BE THAT WATER ITSELF IS >DISASSOCIATED INTO POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE IONS AND SHOULD BE CLASSIFIED >AS A WEAK ELECTROLYTE." Correct, but place emphasis on "slight extent". >From: Chemistry >By: Michell J. Sienko and Robert A. Plane > Assoc. Prof. of Chem Asst. Prof. of Chem. > Cornell Univ. Cornell Univ. >Printed By: McGraw-Hill Book Company > Ny,Toronto,London > >4) "A Plate of clean lead and a plate of patina were put into PURE >WATER. THERE WAS IMMEDIATELY A POWERFUL CURRENT PRODUCED FROM THE LEAD >THROUGH THE WATER TO THE PATINA..........Here no action of acid or >alkali on the oxide formed from the lead could supply the electricity: >IT WAS DUE SOLELY TO THE OXIDATION OF THE METAL (BY THE WATER)." > "The water, as water, cannot conduct electricity OR AT LEAST >ONLY SO SMALL A PROPORTION THAT IT IS MERELY AN INCIDENTAL EFFECT." >Michael Farady >Letters to the Royal Society >Circa 1834 I doubt that Michael Faraday actually had access to very pure water to start with, and also, as material from the electrodes dissolved in the water, it would become conducting. Note that the poor conductivity of pure water doesn't mean that it won't react with some clean metal surfaces (and as soon as it does, it is no longer pure water). [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 27 17:42:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA30039; Sat, 27 May 2000 17:41:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 17:41:45 -0700 From: myagent2@home.com Message-ID: <00fa01bfc83d$d1ff6840$0100a8c0@alsv1.occa.home.com> To: References: <001a01bfc82e$6505e840$0200a8c6@stealth> Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 17:44:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"p9AYT2.0.-K7.9j6Cv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15355 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Hutchinson effect (Real Video format) OK folks, here are some Hutchison videos: http://www.geocities.com/freenrg61/index.html (FYI: I got permission from Mr. Hutchison first) I've got 3 .rm files each just under 15 MB. This geocities account will only hold 15 MB. If you've got a home for them, let me know and I will FTP them to you. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 27 17:47:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA31889; Sat, 27 May 2000 17:46:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 17:46:09 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: Re: FNG: Re: "The Rest of the Story" Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 10:45:33 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <391F22D9.6AE813D2@csrlink.net> <391ED649.6BC13AFC@worldnet.att.net> <391F647F.FC7D8D4B@csrlink.net> <393248f7.5092172@mail.midiowa.net> In-Reply-To: <393248f7.5092172@mail.midiowa.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA31861 Resent-Message-ID: <"yS8Jk3.0.Ao7.Hn6Cv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15356 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com In reply to Dean T. Miller's message of Sat, 27 May 2000 22:23:18 GMT: [snip] >Not every idea stands up to detailed analysis. This is >one that doesn't make the cut. But the only way to tell >the good ideas from the not-so-good, is to do the math. [snip] Pity the author of this analysis didn't do a calculation based upon a holding tank consisting of a bulldozed reservoir, lined with plastic sheet, and holding concentrated salt water. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 27 17:57:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA02380; Sat, 27 May 2000 17:56:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 17:56:10 -0700 Message-ID: <39306DD4.EE0DCBF8@harti.com> Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 02:52:36 +0200 From: Stefan Hartmann Organization: Hartmann Multimedia Service X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [de]C-CCK-MCD QXW03200 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, Newman-L Mailing List , "jlnlabs@egroups.com" , "ou-builders@egroups.com" Subject: Re: [FG]: Hutchinson effect X-Priority: 2 (High) References: <001a01bfc82e$6505e840$0200a8c6@stealth> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"U1PTD.0.5b.fw6Cv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15357 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Yes, indeed ! Hutchinson first discovered the effect himself, when suddenly a screw driver or something simular did hit him in the back , when flying off nearby ! He was just controlling the frequency (beat) with some earphones with his equipment, when he just got the screw driver into his back and he did get a scarry shock, who did throw this at him.... Cause nobody was there he figuered then later out that it was his force-fields he created which lifted this thing up and trew it onto his back ! This way he discovered, that he had created something special at all ! Amazing stuff. I have a few video tapes of it and it really looks like Science Fiction ! A friend of mine who worked in a material lab over here also got samples from Hutchinson and he told me that they had measured them and that this Aluminium material could not be produced this way it had looked after the force field changes... Regards, Stefan. "R.U. Sirius" schrieb: > > I have not done much research on Hutchinson and his work, but something in > this post did catch my eye. I am by no means in a position to judge rather > his effects are real or not, but I noticed the part you mentioned about the > kitchen knife and the alum bar being fused together. I'm trying to picture > myself in his shoes. Being able to produce an effect with unknown results. > Levitating, objects shooting off, fusing, etc... I wonder with all these > unknowns if I would ever leave a kitchen knife laying around while producing > the effect. Seems a bit dangerous to me. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Uban > To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com > Date: Saturday, May 27, 2000 5:45 PM > Subject: [FG]: Hutchinson effect > > > I was lucky enough to attend the INE'94 > >where John Hutchinson and George Hathaway gave > >a joint presentation about the Hutchinson effect(s). > > This was truly the most amazing presentation > >and set of information I've ever experienced. > > G. Hathaway is a consulting engineer (EE) in > >Canada, and worked with Hutchinson for some time > >to help quantify the effects or learn how to make > >them more reliable (that program was a failure) > >and to generate external interest, for further > >research support. > > George H showed some of the videos of > >the effects, the levitations being quite mind- > >boggling, ranging from globs of ice cream pulling > >out of a container an flying up, to a very heavy > >cannon ball floating about 18" off the wooden > >surface and occasionally rotating a bit - quite > >errie! > > John H presented as well, from his point > >of view of tuning the apparatus, which was always > >a sort of feeling thing which he had to settle > >into - he apparantly can sense the fields/ions > >and has learned how to get the apparatus into > >its 'groove'. Even so, it may take him days to > >get the equipment to respond. Who knows what > >external variables go into it, such as humidity. > > Particularly interesting were the descriptions > >of effects on materials, mostly metals. Some alloys > >would start so separate into layers of distinct elements. > >Steel rods would break apart with no heating effects. > >Several of the materials were brought along for > >inspection by the attendees. I held a standard > >extruded bar of aluminum, normal except for the > >piece of wood which was now embedded in it, the > >latter not having been heated to charring, nor > >the aluminum showing signs of melting. Another > >aluminum bar had been milled down to the stainless > >steel table knife which was now half embedded in > >the bar, again with no evidence of melting in > >the case of the aluminum. A copper bus bar > >had expended in the center into 4 separate > >bars joining at each end. > > The whole presentation was impressive > >and left no doubt that here is a wide range > >of effects, presently 'unknown', of electromagnetics > >on various materials. Possibly this goes beyond > >EM, involving the researcher's consciousness as > >well, as only when John H was present did the > >machinery ever fully produce the effects. On > >the other hand, John had learned to tune the > >equipment over the course of many years. > > Also pointed out was the the lab was > >a pack rat's accumulation of every possible > >electromagnetic device. John H was always > >inclined to add more equipment, not pare it > >down to hone in on the component sources of > >the effect. Just his nature - having fun! > > The proceedings of this are available: > >http://www.padrak.com/ine/INE5.html > > as well as the videos/audios of the > >conference. The list shows Hutchinson only, > >but both he and Hathaway presented. (Hathaway > >also had another presentation). So, I don't > >know if the videos are separate for their > >two halves of the Hutchinson material, as > >I haven't ordered the videos. > > Jim > > -- Best regards, Stefan Hartmann. -- Hartmann Multimedia Service, Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498 email: harti@harti.com info@ccard.net http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB ! From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 27 19:17:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA22804; Sat, 27 May 2000 19:16:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 19:16:50 -0700 Message-ID: <001801bfc809$03a6ff00$a2a134d1@a9o0z0> From: "Alik S" To: Subject: Re: [FG]: Hutchinson effect Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 18:26:00 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"kiHtf1.0.9a5.I68Cv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15358 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com I wonder with all these >unknowns if I would ever leave a kitchen knife laying around while producing >the effect. Seems a bit dangerous to me. > Actually one of the more spectacular 'artifacts' that John has is a kitchen knife burried inside a piece of metal that was part of some machine. I had an opporunity to experiment with/around John's machine in late 80's and as far as I can tell is PK. Alik S. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Jim Uban >To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com >Date: Saturday, May 27, 2000 5:45 PM >Subject: [FG]: Hutchinson effect > > >> I was lucky enough to attend the INE'94 >>where John Hutchinson and George Hathaway gave >>a joint presentation about the Hutchinson effect(s). >> This was truly the most amazing presentation >>and set of information I've ever experienced. >> G. Hathaway is a consulting engineer (EE) in >>Canada, and worked with Hutchinson for some time >>to help quantify the effects or learn how to make >>them more reliable (that program was a failure) >>and to generate external interest, for further >>research support. >> George H showed some of the videos of >>the effects, the levitations being quite mind- >>boggling, ranging from globs of ice cream pulling >>out of a container an flying up, to a very heavy >>cannon ball floating about 18" off the wooden >>surface and occasionally rotating a bit - quite >>errie! >> John H presented as well, from his point >>of view of tuning the apparatus, which was always >>a sort of feeling thing which he had to settle >>into - he apparantly can sense the fields/ions >>and has learned how to get the apparatus into >>its 'groove'. Even so, it may take him days to >>get the equipment to respond. Who knows what >>external variables go into it, such as humidity. >> Particularly interesting were the descriptions >>of effects on materials, mostly metals. Some alloys >>would start so separate into layers of distinct elements. >>Steel rods would break apart with no heating effects. >>Several of the materials were brought along for >>inspection by the attendees. I held a standard >>extruded bar of aluminum, normal except for the >>piece of wood which was now embedded in it, the >>latter not having been heated to charring, nor >>the aluminum showing signs of melting. Another >>aluminum bar had been milled down to the stainless >>steel table knife which was now half embedded in >>the bar, again with no evidence of melting in >>the case of the aluminum. A copper bus bar >>had expended in the center into 4 separate >>bars joining at each end. >> The whole presentation was impressive >>and left no doubt that here is a wide range >>of effects, presently 'unknown', of electromagnetics >>on various materials. Possibly this goes beyond >>EM, involving the researcher's consciousness as >>well, as only when John H was present did the >>machinery ever fully produce the effects. On >>the other hand, John had learned to tune the >>equipment over the course of many years. >> Also pointed out was the the lab was >>a pack rat's accumulation of every possible >>electromagnetic device. John H was always >>inclined to add more equipment, not pare it >>down to hone in on the component sources of >>the effect. Just his nature - having fun! >> The proceedings of this are available: >>http://www.padrak.com/ine/INE5.html >> as well as the videos/audios of the >>conference. The list shows Hutchinson only, >>but both he and Hathaway presented. (Hathaway >>also had another presentation). So, I don't >>know if the videos are separate for their >>two halves of the Hutchinson material, as >>I haven't ordered the videos. >> Jim >> > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 27 19:56:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA01641; Sat, 27 May 2000 19:55:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 19:55:37 -0700 Message-ID: <001001bfc846$a6903dc0$0200a8c6@stealth> From: "R.U. Sirius" To: Subject: Re: [FG]: Hutchinson effect Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 21:47:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"ANKCB.0.YP.fg8Cv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15359 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sounds incrediable! I noticed an earlier post about some rm movies but no server space for them. Let me see what I can do, I have a few connections, maybe I can get some space for some stuff like this. I'll keep you posted! -----Original Message----- From: Stefan Hartmann To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com ; Newman-L Mailing List ; jlnlabs@egroups.com ; ou-builders@egroups.com Date: Saturday, May 27, 2000 8:59 PM Subject: Re: [FG]: Hutchinson effect >Yes, indeed ! >Hutchinson first discovered the effect himself, >when suddenly a screw driver or something simular did >hit him in the back , when flying off nearby ! >He was just controlling the frequency (beat) with some earphones > with his equipment, when he just got the screw driver >into his back and he did get a scarry shock, >who did throw this at him.... > >Cause nobody was there he figuered then later >out that it was his force-fields he created which lifted this thing >up and trew it onto his back ! >This way he discovered, that he had created something >special at all ! > >Amazing stuff. >I have a few video tapes of it and >it really looks like Science Fiction ! > >A friend of mine who worked in a material lab over here >also got samples from Hutchinson and he told me that they >had measured them and that this Aluminium material >could not be produced this way it had looked after the >force field changes... > >Regards, Stefan. > > >"R.U. Sirius" schrieb: >> >> I have not done much research on Hutchinson and his work, but something in >> this post did catch my eye. I am by no means in a position to judge rather >> his effects are real or not, but I noticed the part you mentioned about the >> kitchen knife and the alum bar being fused together. I'm trying to picture >> myself in his shoes. Being able to produce an effect with unknown results. >> Levitating, objects shooting off, fusing, etc... I wonder with all these >> unknowns if I would ever leave a kitchen knife laying around while producing >> the effect. Seems a bit dangerous to me. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jim Uban >> To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com >> Date: Saturday, May 27, 2000 5:45 PM >> Subject: [FG]: Hutchinson effect >> >> > I was lucky enough to attend the INE'94 >> >where John Hutchinson and George Hathaway gave >> >a joint presentation about the Hutchinson effect(s). >> > This was truly the most amazing presentation >> >and set of information I've ever experienced. >> > G. Hathaway is a consulting engineer (EE) in >> >Canada, and worked with Hutchinson for some time >> >to help quantify the effects or learn how to make >> >them more reliable (that program was a failure) >> >and to generate external interest, for further >> >research support. >> > George H showed some of the videos of >> >the effects, the levitations being quite mind- >> >boggling, ranging from globs of ice cream pulling >> >out of a container an flying up, to a very heavy >> >cannon ball floating about 18" off the wooden >> >surface and occasionally rotating a bit - quite >> >errie! >> > John H presented as well, from his point >> >of view of tuning the apparatus, which was always >> >a sort of feeling thing which he had to settle >> >into - he apparantly can sense the fields/ions >> >and has learned how to get the apparatus into >> >its 'groove'. Even so, it may take him days to >> >get the equipment to respond. Who knows what >> >external variables go into it, such as humidity. >> > Particularly interesting were the descriptions >> >of effects on materials, mostly metals. Some alloys >> >would start so separate into layers of distinct elements. >> >Steel rods would break apart with no heating effects. >> >Several of the materials were brought along for >> >inspection by the attendees. I held a standard >> >extruded bar of aluminum, normal except for the >> >piece of wood which was now embedded in it, the >> >latter not having been heated to charring, nor >> >the aluminum showing signs of melting. Another >> >aluminum bar had been milled down to the stainless >> >steel table knife which was now half embedded in >> >the bar, again with no evidence of melting in >> >the case of the aluminum. A copper bus bar >> >had expended in the center into 4 separate >> >bars joining at each end. >> > The whole presentation was impressive >> >and left no doubt that here is a wide range >> >of effects, presently 'unknown', of electromagnetics >> >on various materials. Possibly this goes beyond >> >EM, involving the researcher's consciousness as >> >well, as only when John H was present did the >> >machinery ever fully produce the effects. On >> >the other hand, John had learned to tune the >> >equipment over the course of many years. >> > Also pointed out was the the lab was >> >a pack rat's accumulation of every possible >> >electromagnetic device. John H was always >> >inclined to add more equipment, not pare it >> >down to hone in on the component sources of >> >the effect. Just his nature - having fun! >> > The proceedings of this are available: >> >http://www.padrak.com/ine/INE5.html >> > as well as the videos/audios of the >> >conference. The list shows Hutchinson only, >> >but both he and Hathaway presented. (Hathaway >> >also had another presentation). So, I don't >> >know if the videos are separate for their >> >two halves of the Hutchinson material, as >> >I haven't ordered the videos. >> > Jim >> > > >-- > >Best regards, Stefan Hartmann. >-- >Hartmann Multimedia Service, >Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany >Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498 >email: harti@harti.com info@ccard.net >http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB ! > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 27 20:51:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA13258; Sat, 27 May 2000 20:48:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 20:48:48 -0700 Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 23:47:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Jim Uban Message-Id: <200005280347.XAA18518@world.std.com> To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: Hutchinson effect Resent-Message-ID: <"cJlQW.0.3F3.WS9Cv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15360 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com > R.U. Sirius wrote: Levitating, objects shooting off, fusing, etc... I wonder with all these unknowns if I would ever leave a kitchen knife laying around while producing the effect. Seems a bit dangerous to me. Oh, it was an ordinary table knife, stainless steel, not a sharp chef's knife. Jim From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 27 23:28:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA13380; Sat, 27 May 2000 23:26:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 23:26:22 -0700 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: [FG]: Re: How to get water to flow uphill Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 02:40:16 -0400 Message-ID: <20000528064016421.AAE274@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"DnJ1D3.0.vG3.DmBCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15362 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com John writes: >Couldn't you use capillary action to raise the water? Yes, and I mentioned this before in another post, but I referred to it as "wicking" the water. As far as I know, there are no limits to how high you can go with this, since it works by a totally different process than pressure. The main problem would be evaporation, but in a high density wicking material inside a tube would eliminate that problem. There are positive displacement pumps that utilize rollers to squeeze liquids through flexible tubes, so a small pump at the top of the wicking tube would be able periodically to squeeze out a portion of the water that wicked to the top. These roller type pumps in combination with a wicking tube may provide a much more efficient means of getting water to a significant height. It seems logical that they would, anyway. Anyone know of any trials of this idea? Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 27 23:28:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA13339; Sat, 27 May 2000 23:26:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 23:26:19 -0700 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: [FG]: I Challenge the group... Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 02:40:13 -0400 Message-ID: <20000528064013718.AAC274@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"4xUHX.0.KG3.BmBCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15361 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com myagent2 writes: >Current obsessions: > >I am insanely obsessed with any technology that can aid in making an idea >into something tangible, home-brew devices, waves, resonance, magnets, >coils, capacitors, compressed air power, splitting water, data-mining, >Genetic Algorithms, Evolutionary Computing, how do we think?, multimedia, >animatronics, thinkers, doers, tree houses, genetics, the Internet, >cultures, "Art", and really sour candy. Well you've come to the right place for a lot of that stuff, and your list of proposed projects is something that a good number of the participants here have done. >BTW, I got a 404 error when trying to access the page in your signature. Yeah, sorry about that. My own website is down at the moment, and I'm working on making it possible to get it back up there. Hopefully, in the near future. In the meantime, I could e-mail it to you if you like. It is about 1.5mb when zipped up. The subject matter has to do mainly with cavitation, and the phenomena associated or related to that. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 00:00:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA19966; Sat, 27 May 2000 23:58:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 23:58:15 -0700 Message-ID: <013301bfc872$15f57ce0$0892f426@Dabney.com> From: "Red Leader" To: References: <393033A8.3DEFE69D@csrlink.net> Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 01:58:05 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"nw1l6.0.lt4.7ECCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15363 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Re: Is Water An Electrolyte? I don't see these statements as being contradictory. Experimenting will bear out what almost all of these quotes are stating: that pure water is a very poor conductor. Yes, it will conduct, but the current is so small that it's almost negligible. > 1) " Electrolysis is used to break down water, which is a compound of > Hydrogen and oxygen, into it's component gasses. The difficulty here, > however, is that PURE WATER IS NOT AN ELECTROLYTE AND WILL NOT CONDUCT > ELECTRICITY." Technicly this is incorrect, but for the audience of this book (electritians) it is, for all practical puropses, true. The power company doesn't worry about rain water getting on the lines, although the water on the insulators does technicly conduct a miniscule amount of electricity. > 2) "The cell then, consists of two electrodes.....and AN ELECTROLYTE > that is for the most part distilled (pure) WATER. There is some Sulfuric > Acid mixed with the water but in the uncharged state IT'S PRESENCE IS > INSIGNIFICANT." Sounds like we're talking about a lead-acid battery here. When one of these is completely discharged, the liquid in the battery is almost pure water. There is no significant amount of sulfuric acid in the water, it's in the lead. Hence the above quote is also true. > 3) "In the preceding discussions it has been assumed that water is a > non-conductor of electricity in conductivity determinations. It IS FOUND > HOWEVER, BY PRECISE MEASUREMENT THAT EVEN HIGHLY PURIFIED WATER DOES > CONDUCT ELECTRICITY TO A SLIGHT EXTENT. IT MUST BE THAT WATER ITSELF IS > DISASSOCIATED INTO POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE IONS AND SHOULD BE CLASSIFIED > AS A WEAK ELECTROLYTE." This is a more precise statement than #1. Probably the best overall explanation. > 4) "A Plate of clean lead and a plate of patina were put into PURE > WATER. THERE WAS IMMEDIATELY A POWERFUL CURRENT PRODUCED FROM THE LEAD > THROUGH THE WATER TO THE PATINA..........Here no action of acid or > alkali on the oxide formed from the lead could supply the electricity: > IT WAS DUE SOLELY TO THE OXIDATION OF THE METAL (BY THE WATER)." > "The water, as water, cannot conduct electricity OR AT LEAST > ONLY SO SMALL A PROPORTION THAT IT IS MERELY AN INCIDENTAL EFFECT." Again, we're talking about a battery here. I claim no expertise in the area of electrochemistry, but this is a completely different process than passing current through the water itself. The current in Faraday's experiment was passing from the negative electrode, through his wires and test equipment and back to the positive electrode. It never passed through the water from one electrode to the other. The same holds true for a lead-acid battery. IMO, all the statements agree. Scientists have been hashing this stuff out since Faraday's time and they've pretty much got this stuff down. The contradictions you saw in these books result, I think, from not taking the statements in context. This is a real danger and I've caught myself doing it before. Taking isolated statements out of context and trying to use them as proof of a theory can really land you in trouble, as you mentioned in your post. Regards, Emmett Hawkins From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 00:07:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA21720; Sun, 28 May 2000 00:06:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 00:06:06 -0700 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: [FG]: Is Water An Electrolyte? Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 03:20:00 -0400 Message-ID: <20000528072000562.AAA261@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"ckdif1.0.AJ5.RLCCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15364 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mike writes: > If something as simple as whether or not water conducts electricity >is taught in such contradictory fashion from book to book and only one >version can be right, then how much of the rest of the information that >we are taught regarding the physical sciences is any more accurate? > To prove my point I would like to quote some statements directly out >of the books to which I refer and let you be the judge. >1) " Electrolysis is used to break down water, which is a compound of >Hydrogen and oxygen, into it's component gasses. The difficulty here, >however, is that PURE WATER IS NOT AN ELECTROLYTE AND WILL NOT CONDUCT >ELECTRICITY." >From: Electricity for Electricians >By: Abraham Marcus >Special printing for the National Joint Apprenticeship Committee for the >Electrical Industry >Printed By: Prentice-Hall,inc. >Englewood Cliffs, NJ > >2) "The cell then, consists of two electrodes.....and AN ELECTROLYTE >that is for the most part distilled (pure) WATER. There is some Sulfuric >Acid mixed with the water but in the uncharged state IT'S PRESENCE IS >INSIGNIFICANT." >Electricity one-seven >By: Harry Mileat, Editor in Chief >Hayden Book Company inc. > >3) "In the preceding discussions it has been assumed that water is a >non-conductor of electricity in conductivity determinations. It IS FOUND >HOWEVER, BY PRECISE MEASUREMENT THAT EVEN HIGHLY PURIFIED WATER DOES >CONDUCT ELECTRICITY TO A SLIGHT EXTENT. IT MUST BE THAT WATER ITSELF IS >DISASSOCIATED INTO POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE IONS AND SHOULD BE CLASSIFIED >AS A WEAK ELECTROLYTE." >From: Chemistry >By: Michell J. Sienko and Robert A. Plane > Assoc. Prof. of Chem Asst. Prof. of Chem. > Cornell Univ. Cornell Univ. >Printed By: McGraw-Hill Book Company > Ny,Toronto,London > >4) "A Plate of clean lead and a plate of patina were put into PURE >WATER. THERE WAS IMMEDIATELY A POWERFUL CURRENT PRODUCED FROM THE LEAD >THROUGH THE WATER TO THE PATINA..........Here no action of acid or >alkali on the oxide formed from the lead could supply the electricity: >IT WAS DUE SOLELY TO THE OXIDATION OF THE METAL (BY THE WATER)." > "The water, as water, cannot conduct electricity OR AT LEAST >ONLY SO SMALL A PROPORTION THAT IT IS MERELY AN INCIDENTAL EFFECT." >Michael Farady >Letters to the Royal Society >Circa 1834 > > As you can easily see, any of these sources of information could be >cited as a valid source of information by someone who wanted to "prove" >a point. Unfortunately there are two seemingly entirely opposite >conclusions here which are both presented by various, credentialed >authors as being equally valid Both sides cannot be correct and so how >is anyone supposed to do any valid further research if even these most >basic concepts must be proved or disproved all over again before they >even start? >MJ Hi Mike, Anyone who has done any experimentation has found that water is indeed a most complex material with which to work. You have mentioned some very good references, and they only describe a few of the conditions underwhich water can conduct electricity. There are the issues of anode, cathode material choice, and geometry, as well the issue of dissolved gases that will affect how well water will conduct electricity. While the simple truism that is taught in basic chemistry classes that water is a dielectric is true to an extent, to what extent it is true is variable, and depends on numerous conditions. The same hold true for other properties of water, such as thermal conductivity, and even the temperatures at which water changes phase from solid to liquid, and from liquid to gas. Under some conditions for example, pure water will remain solid up to a temperature of 70 degrees F. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 00:49:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA28495; Sun, 28 May 2000 00:47:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 00:47:25 -0700 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: [FG]: Hutchinson effect Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 04:01:18 -0400 Message-ID: <20000528080118468.AAA318@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"mRbrV1.0.8z6.CyCCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15365 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com RU wrote: >I have not done much research on Hutchinson and his work, but something in >this post did catch my eye. I am by no means in a position to judge rather >his effects are real or not, but I noticed the part you mentioned about the >kitchen knife and the alum bar being fused together. I'm trying to picture >myself in his shoes. Being able to produce an effect with unknown results. >Levitating, objects shooting off, fusing, etc... I wonder with all these >unknowns if I would ever leave a kitchen knife laying around while producing >the effect. Seems a bit dangerous to me. Yes, it is a bit dangerous. Considering how much trust we put into our materials when we construct things, to realize that there may be a method of ungluing them all is somewhat unsettling. Steel trestle bridges, cars, boats, airplanes, nuclear power plants and rocket silos, all are critically dependant on the materials performing as advertised. It is not something that I would experiment with until I could determine that I was not going to do harm to myself or others, now or in the future. It is a fascinating enough of an effect however, that it really is difficult not to want to experiment with it. I understand that Hutchinson was released from jail. Does anyone have any details on that? I was getting ready to make inquiries myself after I didn't hear anything for a couple of months, but then someone mentioned that he was freed. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 01:14:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA32431; Sun, 28 May 2000 01:12:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 01:12:17 -0700 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: [FG]: Hutchinson effect (Real Video format) Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 04:26:12 -0400 Message-ID: <20000528082612671.AAA227@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"UJKOq3.0.ew7.XJDCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15366 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com myagent2 writes: >OK folks, here are some Hutchison videos: >http://www.geocities.com/freenrg61/index.html > >(FYI: I got permission from Mr. Hutchison first) > > >I've got 3 .rm files each just under 15 MB. This geocities account will >only hold 15 MB. If you've got a home for them, let me know and I will FTP >them to you. Hi there, Also, if these vids are in the latest RP formats, they won't be readable by the Linux users or users of old operating systems like DOS. If someone has the capability to convert those to mpegs, that would be cool, too. ASCII, HTML, GIF, JPEG, MPEG are formats that pretty much everyone can access on every version of every platform. I don't know of what a good universal format would be for sound files. WAV? Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 01:48:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA04916; Sun, 28 May 2000 01:47:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 01:47:08 -0700 From: RoConroy@aol.com Message-ID: <6.689a4e2.266236e8@aol.com> Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 04:46:32 EDT Subject: Re: [FG]: Hutchinson effect To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 10 Resent-Message-ID: <"HHtOZ.0.jC1.BqDCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15367 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com In a message dated 5/27/00 7:57:28 PM Central Daylight Time, harti@harti.com writes: << He was just controlling the frequency (beat) with some earphones with his equipment, when he just got the screw driver into his back and he did get a scarry shock, who did throw this at him.... >> There is a nice WEB site which list about five quasi historical occurrences of the use of sound for use in levitation and dissimulation. URL: http://www.wordmax.com/gallery432/432musi.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 02:06:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA09121; Sun, 28 May 2000 02:04:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 02:04:36 -0700 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: [FG]: Hutchinson effect Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 05:18:31 -0400 Message-ID: <20000528091831109.AAA349@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"pysxL3.0.PE2.a4ECv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15368 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Alik writes: >I had an opporunity to experiment with/around John's machine in late 80's >and as far as I can tell is PK. > >Alik S. Hi Alik, I think you are correct, but it looks as if it is an artificially amplified or assisted version of PK. An analogy might include something like power steering in a car. To my knowledge, no one has produced these effects with such a degree of success without some kind of gear. The Torsion researchers have narrowed down somewhat the parameters, but the results are still far from well understood. Success sometimes seems to involve the coupling of the mind's activity with fields that have yet to be well defined. The nature of those fields, however are becoming more well understood, and like anything else, will become a science with more experimentation, data recording, and sharing of the techniques. Since the effects are so strange, unpredictable and powerful, a great deal of consideration and caution should be incorporated into any experimental setup. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 03:26:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA17524; Sun, 28 May 2000 03:24:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 03:24:39 -0700 Message-ID: <20000528102407.91325.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [209.254.40.54] From: "Mehmet Boysal" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 04:24:07 MDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"SgqlK.0.fH4.dFFCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15369 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: No delusion !!! Working PMM << Hi there all, This site was published by Jean 2 yrs a go or so, but take a good look at it and read it all, we may be missing the real invention right here. The original inventor of the PMM said these words. (When I have built the motor, I have used different types of thread in the front axle versus the rear one who support the front and rear aluminum sheets. This axle you turn clockwise using your finger according the diagram. I have got 600 RPM with ferrite magnets, 3000 RPM with NIB magnets and up to 300 Watts/hour free electricity output with no electrical input.... Following my instructions you will get every thing done....." (Nelson Camus) So all of you see this URL: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jlnaudin/html/trmdiag.htm and I think we should all build an experement of this simple PMM. And perhaps even save this page on your PC just incase any one takes down the site, so we can re-publish it again. I think the plans and instructions are as simple as it can be so no more excuse lets get the job done... God Speed to all who will build this machine... Mehmet.>> ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 03:36:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA20310; Sun, 28 May 2000 03:34:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 03:34:39 -0700 From: dtmiller@midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: Is Water An Electrolyte? Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 10:35:04 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Reply-To: dtmiller@midiowa.net Message-ID: <39365575.8290711@mail.midiowa.net> References: <393033A8.3DEFE69D@csrlink.net> In-Reply-To: <393033A8.3DEFE69D@csrlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id DAA20286 Resent-Message-ID: <"nk_3M2.0.Fz4._OFCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15370 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi Mike, On Sat, 27 May 2000 16:44:24 -0400, Mike Johnston wrote: >3) "In the preceding discussions it has been assumed that water is a >non-conductor of electricity in conductivity determinations. It IS FOUND >HOWEVER, BY PRECISE MEASUREMENT THAT EVEN HIGHLY PURIFIED WATER DOES >CONDUCT ELECTRICITY TO A SLIGHT EXTENT. IT MUST BE THAT WATER ITSELF IS >DISASSOCIATED INTO POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE IONS AND SHOULD BE CLASSIFIED >AS A WEAK ELECTROLYTE." >From: Chemistry >By: Michell J. Sienko and Robert A. Plane > Assoc. Prof. of Chem Asst. Prof. of Chem. > Cornell Univ. Cornell Univ. >Printed By: McGraw-Hill Book Company > Ny,Toronto,London This one's correct. I use well-filtered, then distilled, water to make colloidal silver. Water is like air, in that it's a great insulator until you ionize a bit of it, then it becomes more conductive. -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moines (CDP, KB0ZDF) From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 04:03:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA23542; Sun, 28 May 2000 04:02:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 04:02:04 -0700 Message-ID: <20000528110132.84630.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [209.254.40.54] From: "Mehmet Boysal" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 05:01:32 MDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"-zSmg1.0.hl5.ioFCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15371 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Re: N << Hi there all, This site was published by Jean 2 yrs a go or so, but take a good look at it and read it all, we may be missing the real invention right here. The original inventor of the PMM said these words. (When I have built the motor, I have used different types of thread in the front axle versus the rear one who support the front and rear aluminum sheets. This axle you turn clockwise using your finger according the diagram. I have got 600 RPM with ferrite magnets, 3000 RPM with NIB magnets and up to 300 Watts/hour free electricity output with no electrical input.... Following my instructions you will get every thing done....." (Nelson Camus) So all of you see this URL: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jlnaudin/html/trmdiag.htm and I think we should all build an experement of this simple PMM. And perhaps even save this page on your PC just incase any one takes down the site, so we can re-publish it again. I think the plans and instructions are as simple as it can be so no more excuse lets get the job done... God Speed to all who will build this machine... Mehmet.>> ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 04:05:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA24269; Sun, 28 May 2000 04:03:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 04:03:52 -0700 Message-ID: <20000528110316.63497.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [209.254.40.54] From: "Mehmet Boysal" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 05:03:16 MDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Xlql_.0.rw5.KqFCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15372 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: PMM Sorry about previous email someting went wrong, here the is same message << Hi there all, This site was published by Jean 2 yrs a go or so, but take a good look at it and read it all, we may be missing the real invention right here. The original inventor of the PMM said these words. (When I have built the motor, I have used different types of thread in the front axle versus the rear one who support the front and rear aluminum sheets. This axle you turn clockwise using your finger according the diagram. I have got 600 RPM with ferrite magnets, 3000 RPM with NIB magnets and up to 300 Watts/hour free electricity output with no electrical input.... Following my instructions you will get every thing done....." (Nelson Camus) So all of you see this URL: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jlnaudin/html/trmdiag.htm and I think we should all build an experement of this simple PMM. And perhaps even save this page on your PC just incase any one takes down the site, so we can re-publish it again. I think the plans and instructions are as simple as it can be so no more excuse lets get the job done... God Speed to all who will build this machine... Mehmet.>> ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 05:12:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA01276; Sun, 28 May 2000 05:11:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 05:11:03 -0700 From: JNaudin509@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 08:10:29 EDT Subject: Re: [FG]: No delusion !!! Working PMM To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id FAA01258 Resent-Message-ID: <"RwfkO.0.rJ.NpGCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15373 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Dans un courrier daté du 28/05/00 12:26:22 Paris, Madrid (heure d'été), mksboysal@hotmail.com a écrit : > (When I have built the motor, I have used different types of thread in the > front axle versus the rear one who support the front and rear aluminum > sheets. This axle you turn clockwise using your finger according the > diagram. > I have got 600 RPM with ferrite magnets, 3000 RPM with NIB magnets and up to > > 300 Watts/hour free electricity output with no electrical input.... > Following my instructions you will get every thing done....." (Nelson Camus) > > So all of you see this URL: > http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jlnaudin/html/trmdiag.htm I have NOT SUCCEED in the self-running about the Reed's motor according to the design from Neslon Camus....I think that this design is nearly close to the original design of the Reed's motor, but it seems that some parts or tuning procedures seems missing in the Camus drawing. I have asked Nelson Camus about this and he has answered me that he has succeeded after three months of hard tuning... Best Regards, Jean-Louis Naudin From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 05:35:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA06499; Sun, 28 May 2000 05:34:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 05:34:13 -0700 Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 07:34:09 -0500 (CDT) From: Zack Widup X-Sender: w9sz@bluestem To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: Is Water An Electrolyte? In-Reply-To: <20000528072000562.AAA261@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"cdvbJ1.0.Nb1.49HCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15374 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Sun, 28 May 2000, Michael T Huffman wrote: > > Hi Mike, > > Anyone who has done any experimentation has found that water is indeed a > most complex material with which to work. You have mentioned some very good > references, and they only describe a few of the conditions underwhich water > can conduct electricity. There are the issues of anode, cathode material > choice, and geometry, as well the issue of dissolved gases that will affect > how well water will conduct electricity. While the simple truism that is > taught in basic chemistry classes that water is a dielectric is true to an > extent, to what extent it is true is variable, and depends on numerous > conditions. The same hold true for other properties of water, such as > thermal conductivity, and even the temperatures at which water changes phase > from solid to liquid, and from liquid to gas. Under some conditions for > example, pure water will remain solid up to a temperature of 70 degrees F. > > Knuke I built a set of probes for the purpose of determining the level of water in boreholes drilled down into an old coal mine void. The probes consist of two stainless steel rods 0.25 inches in diameter, about an inch apart and 6 inches long. I also built a special meter to measure resistance between the probes. It will measure resistance in the range of about 20 ohms to 10 megohms using an AC voltage. I found that regular tap water is very conductive, with readings from the probes described above being in the 100-1000 ohm range. I tried distilled water purchased at a grocery store and could not get any reading, even at the highest scale of the meter. If I took a pinch of salt and put it in the distilled water, the meter would once again read a resistance value which depended on how much salt I put in the water. The mine void water we were measuring was extremely conductive, having a measurement of probably less than 20 ohms with the above setup. These are just some of my own findings I thought I'd pass along. Zack Widup From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 05:58:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA11071; Sun, 28 May 2000 05:57:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 05:57:03 -0700 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: [FG]: Is Water An Electrolyte? Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 09:10:56 -0400 Message-ID: <20000528131056968.AAA349@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"zSVUn3.0.ui2.UUHCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15375 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Zack wrote: >I built a set of probes for the purpose of determining the level of water >in boreholes drilled down into an old coal mine void. The probes consist >of two stainless steel rods 0.25 inches in diameter, about an inch apart >and 6 inches long. > >I also built a special meter to measure resistance between the probes. It >will measure resistance in the range of about 20 ohms to 10 megohms using >an AC voltage. > >I found that regular tap water is very conductive, with readings from the >probes described above being in the 100-1000 ohm range. I tried distilled >water purchased at a grocery store and could not get any reading, even at >the highest scale of the meter. If I took a pinch of salt and put it in >the distilled water, the meter would once again read a resistance value >which depended on how much salt I put in the water. > >The mine void water we were measuring was extremely conductive, having a >measurement of probably less than 20 ohms with the above setup. > >These are just some of my own findings I thought I'd pass along. > >Zack Widup Hi Zack, Fred Sparber on the Vortex Group did a bunch of ad hoc measurements with tap water, and was quite surprised by the results as well. Tap water can vary in mineral content and gaseous content quite a lot, depending on the source and treatment. It's not too surprising that the water in a coal mine would be conductive with all the carbon around. Was the purpose of the probes to determine the water level? If so, I think I would have used a sonic means of performing that task, but that is just my own preference. We had probes on the Polar Bear in the bilge to sound an alarm that used a resistor reading. I take that back, the Polar Bear used a relay on a stick that was attached to a toilet style float. When the float went to a certain level, it would mechanically trigger an alarm relay. Another boat, the Teal, had the resistor based alarm. Both were worthless in the high seas, and would be turned off. Visual monitoring of the bilge levels was the only reliable method. Thanks for the info. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 07:20:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA29426; Sun, 28 May 2000 07:18:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 07:18:49 -0700 Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 09:18:46 -0500 (CDT) From: Zack Widup X-Sender: w9sz@bluestem To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: Is Water An Electrolyte? In-Reply-To: <20000528131056968.AAA349@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"WShmw1.0.hB7.9hICv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15376 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Sun, 28 May 2000, Michael T Huffman wrote: > > Was the purpose of the probes to determine the water level? If so, I think > I would have used a sonic means of performing that task, but that is just my > own preference. We had probes on the Polar Bear in the bilge to sound an > alarm that used a resistor reading. I take that back, the Polar Bear used a > relay on a stick that was attached to a toilet style float. When the float > went to a certain level, it would mechanically trigger an alarm relay. > Another boat, the Teal, had the resistor based alarm. Both were worthless > in the high seas, and would be turned off. Visual monitoring of the bilge > levels was the only reliable method. Thanks for the info. > > Knuke Actually, what we were doing was grouting the mine void to prevent against future subsidence damage to a number of buildings being constructed above. The grout would be pumped into an adjacent hole, and we would watch the nearby ones to see what its level was. The grout had a different resistance than the water, so we could tell how high it had risen in the void by raising and lowering the probes. The mine was about 300 feet down. Those who have actually tried to measure resistance of water with DC have probably noticed the dielectric polarization effect. The AC waveform I used got around that problem Zack From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 07:52:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA05194; Sun, 28 May 2000 07:51:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 07:51:04 -0700 Message-ID: <001601bfc8a9$bb7e2d60$0200a8c6@stealth> From: "R.U. Sirius" To: Subject: Re: [FG]: Hutchinson effect (Real Video format) Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 09:36:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"0glLq1.0.2H1.O9JCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15377 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com -----Original Message----- From: Michael T Huffman To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Sunday, May 28, 2000 4:14 AM Subject: Re: [FG]: Hutchinson effect (Real Video format) >ASCII, HTML, GIF, JPEG, MPEG are formats that pretty much everyone can >access on every version of every platform. I don't know of what a good >universal format would be for sound files. WAV? I don't think there is any platform that doesn't have an MP3 player available. WAV's are a pretty standard format (that's even the format that is laid down on CD-AUDIO tracks for cdplayers), but they are too BIG! I know of MP3 players for windows, solaris, linux, sco, etc... Not sure about dos, but i'm sure there's one out there... From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 08:00:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA07472; Sun, 28 May 2000 07:58:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 07:58:27 -0700 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: [FG]: Hutchinson effect (Real Video format) Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 11:12:22 -0400 Message-ID: <20000528151222093.AAA84@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"30_zL1.0.aq1.IGJCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15378 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com RU writes: >I don't think there is any platform that doesn't have an MP3 player >available. WAV's are a pretty standard format (that's even the format that >is laid down on CD-AUDIO tracks for cdplayers), but they are too BIG! I >know of MP3 players for windows, solaris, linux, sco, etc... Not sure about >dos, but i'm sure there's one out there... I've got an MP3 player for Win3.1, which is not exactly DOS, but it works for me. I was thinking along the line of all the lesser known brands of computers that the Europeans use that we never see. You are right about the WAV files being huge, though. Thanks, Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 10:16:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA10022; Sun, 28 May 2000 10:14:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 10:14:20 -0700 Message-ID: <004e01bfc8c8$0bbe52a0$89d666ce@default> From: "Chris O'Barr" To: Subject: Re: [FG]: Hutchinson effect (Real Video format) Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 13:13:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"Wv-O43.0.VS2.hFLCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15379 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com www.freedrive.com gives 40MB of free space. -----Original Message----- From: myagent2@home.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Saturday, May 27, 2000 8:42 PM Subject: [FG]: Hutchinson effect (Real Video format) >OK folks, here are some Hutchison videos: >http://www.geocities.com/freenrg61/index.html > >(FYI: I got permission from Mr. Hutchison first) > > >I've got 3 .rm files each just under 15 MB. This geocities account will >only hold 15 MB. If you've got a home for them, let me know and I will FTP >them to you. > > > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 11:00:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA22655; Sun, 28 May 2000 10:58:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 10:58:03 -0700 Message-ID: <20000528175729.59933.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [63.27.227.53] From: "Timothy Flytch" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: Is Water An Electrolyte? Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 10:57:29 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"U7Mf6.0.uX5.guLCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15380 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com >From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) > Under some conditions for >example, pure water will remain solid up to a temperature of 70 degrees F. What... ??? I never heard this... Under what conditions??? vacuum??? ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 11:03:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA25034; Sun, 28 May 2000 11:01:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 11:01:47 -0700 Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 14:00:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Jim Uban Message-Id: <200005281800.OAA29324@world.std.com> To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: Hutchinson effect Resent-Message-ID: <"z2Gbh.0.376.AyLCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15381 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com >knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) wrote: I understand that Hutchinson was released from jail. Does anyone have any details on that? The web site which has the original report also has a followup. First, it never said John H was jailed, but that his antique firearm collection was confiscated. But, that may have been a pretense as along with the 'authorities' came two whose purpose was to photograph all his electrical equipment in detail. The second report says the gov't has now returned his firearms collection and are downplaying the whole event. However, it states there were witnesses who will stand up for John H if he were to file suit against the gov't. I don't have the web site handy just now. Jim From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 12:02:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA09718; Sun, 28 May 2000 12:00:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 12:00:54 -0700 Message-ID: <20000528190020.26922.qmail@web4406.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 12:00:20 -0700 (PDT) From: harvey norris Subject: Re: [FG]: Is Water An Electrolyte/natural rectifier? To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"xUoWe3.0.hN2.bpMCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15382 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com --- Zack Widup wrote: > I found that regular tap water is very conductive, > with readings from the > probes described above being in the 100-1000 ohm > range I found this too. Using 29 6 square inch stainless steel plates on my homemade electrolysisor in parallel, with a 3/4 inch gap between plates, a 12 volt car battery conducted 1.5 amps through ordinary tap water! Electrolysis definitely was taking place as the negative plates quickly were covered with bubbles. so were the positive to a much lesser extent. What surprised me was the fact that the amperage seemed very steady state value, even after the plates filled with bubbles. I thought this polarization thing was supposed to start limiting the amperage input. A mechanism for making these bubbles leave the plate is definiteley needed, which may be solved by my radical approach of electrifying one set of plates by a high voltage/high freq source. I am definitely not going to use a car battery in that experiment! In my initial experiments I wanted to also determine if an exterior high voltage/high freq electric field would alter this conductivity evidenced by the amperage reading. I had thought that earlier experiments years ago showed a 50 % increase in that value, but I think those were done with the additional use of a ceramic magnet at right angles to the electric field being imposed, with the current path as the 3rd right angle. This is feasible by the Lorentz reaction of electric and magnetic fields, but what should occur is alternate aiding and opposing the source voltage, which probably shouldnt increase the noted amperage. That test in the past was very primitive using only a tupperware container with a 3 inch separation of electrodes as aluminum foil. In the present test aluminum foil was taped to the outer sides of the 3/8 in thick HDPE vessel walls of the electrolysisor. The voltage was made at estimated 3000 volts from an series resonant rise of input wall voltage accomplished through large induction coils of 56 H. I have termed this a binary resonant system, since it uses two coils each producing voltage rises in opposite directions of polarity. The total available voltage extacted from the system then becomes twice the voltage rise that either coil alone will deliver. This is an efficient means of creating miniature lightning bolts. An estimated 10,000 volt discharge to water is pictured from the system linked to the previous icon at http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/LaGrangeLn/teslafy/analomous.html The actual voltage input was onbly 440 ac @.15 A, making it only a 70 watt process. I was afraid to use these higher voltage levels in the electrolysisor tests, for danger of arcover. At the wall voltage input level each opposite potential is estimated at 1500 volts. It becomes possible to change the 60 hz signal into high freq by putting an arc gap in series with the aluminum foil plates. Doing the above resulted in no change of amperage, so I now think it is necessary to also expose the electrolysisor to an exterior magnetic field at right angles to the electric. This will be tried using large ceramic 8 magnets. The aluminum foil plates can be heard emitting a buzzing noise, but I also noticed the battery seemed to be doing this also. This alarmed me, but it was probably a sound illusion. I decided to investigate this further by taking the battery out of the picture and hooking the scope up to the electrolysisor plates, while the exterior high voltage process was running. I was surpised to find that indeed the exterior plates must be making a recharging process back to the battery if the connections were in correct polarity. That is because the outside high freq AC process does NOT induce an AC signal on the electrolysisor, but rathger a DC one. The late Andrija Puharich has mentioned in his patent that water can accomplish a natural rectification at 5000 hz, due to its dielectric qualities. I'm not so sure this is such a frequency dependent phenomenon, but the scope forms showed this rectified signal as .2ms curved spikes, at only .4 volts. I decided then to change the cells from parallel to series and check that scope form. Thats when I began filming for referance. The scope then showed a 2 volt high freq deflection, again, mostly all on one polarity side. What really complicates things is the fact that if the voltage deflection is turned up past .5 volts /div to 1, 2 and 5 so that hardly any signal appears, then the signal appears as AC spikes in both polarities, so the scope is giving contradictory information. However All the sweep rates at this .5volt/div show a unidirectional voltage deflection. Scope pictures of these will be placed on upcoming web page, will post when finished.HDN ===== Binary Resonant Systemhttp://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb124201 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 12:26:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA05340; Sun, 28 May 2000 12:24:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 12:24:02 -0700 Message-ID: <39317202.525499C6@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 12:22:42 -0700 From: eks1 Reply-To: eks1@earthlink.net Organization: Systems Research Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,en-GB,en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: [Fwd: Re: Real good evidence of H2 the only fuel !] References: <392EBF57.8DCB957D@harti.com> <392ECC85.DEB6C569@earthlink.net> <1ubuis0vci0ffqg7if7m2b9mfjmn43ft4c@4ax.com> <3930093B.2C9A6C1C@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"qYzoC.0.DJ1.C9NCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15383 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com > > [snip] > Actually I was wondering about the temperatures achieved in ceramic engines, > and whether or not you may have noticed anything unexpected in regard to > fuel economy when using hydrogen fuel. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk We observed that while H2 combustion is robust, and please remember: this is stokeometric combustion IN AIR, there are no magical effects. Hydrogen burns hot, it also ignites sharply under compression with the normal effects of being inducted into a relatively hot environment of an ICE. The JPL H2 car had a very modified GM 307 cu in. V8. Mileage was approximately 23 mpg when all factors were normalized to their gasoline counterparts. In this measure we were doing slightly better than the average 1975 Chevy Impala, most of which had to do with the use of the Vari-CAM camshaft, and an extremely sophisticated type of ignition system utilising early microprocessor technology. A stock version of this vehicle would run 15-17 mpg, and this is Highway Driving Cycle..mostly steady-state driving at or near constant throttle/vacuum settings. The temps in the combustion chamber were exactly what you would calculate for standard H2 burn under 9:1 compression - minus a few degrees for the water injection which they were forced (against their desires, I might add!) to employ in order to keep the predetonation to a minimum. The H2 fuel supply was initially routed from a cryostat, thru a thermal expander and then into the gas-carb. This is a very dangerous approach and was quickly phased out in favor of the metal-hydride storage tanking that was developed. Using Brown's Gas might be slightly better, we never tried it. The scientific mood towards these sorts of things is near humorous amusement - believe me, the PhD's in thermodynamics are never going to renounce the Carnot dogma unless and until someone can SHOW THEM that it's possible to hydrolize on-board and then they will most likely STILL not believe it for a few months! ;) -- --- "When it comes to paradigms, you must shift for yourself!" - Anon |-----------------------| | Systems Research Ltd. |------->"Any real-world system is more.. |-----------------------| ..than the mere sum of it's parts!" Erik K. Sorgatz (KB6LUY) http://home.earthlink.net/~eks1 From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 12:40:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA20785; Sun, 28 May 2000 12:38:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 12:38:18 -0700 Message-ID: <20000528193736.235.qmail@web4406.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 12:37:36 -0700 (PDT) From: harvey norris To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"udCmb1.0.U45.gMNCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15384 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Puharich Patent Quote This is from Patent No 4,394,230 issued to Puharich on July 19th,1983 pg 16; Thus there exists a pure open circuit reversible threshold for water electrolysis in which the water molecules are capacitor charging and disharging at their characteristic low frequency RC time constant of 0.0002 secs. It is to be noted that pure water has a very high dielectric constant which makes such an effect posssible. Must be something to it, the scope spikes I saw were about .2 ms duration. HDN ===== Binary Resonant Systemhttp://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb124201 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 12:53:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA28590; Sun, 28 May 2000 12:51:13 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 12:51:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <39317A37.59EBD844@netzero.net> Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 12:57:43 -0700 From: blue_eyes X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com References: <004e01bfc8c8$0bbe52a0$89d666ce@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"2Ior43.0.W-6.cYNCv"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15385 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: On Line Storage Space I believe Xoom (www.xoom.com) offers 500 mb. of file storage space. David ----------------------- Chris O'Barr wrote: > > www.freedrive.com gives 40MB of free space. ------------------------ _____________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Click here for FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 13:12:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA01073; Sun, 28 May 2000 13:05:45 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 13:05:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <39317C10.FFD52B71@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 13:05:36 -0700 From: eks1 Reply-To: eks1@earthlink.net Organization: Systems Research Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,en-GB,en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: Hutchinson effect (Real Video format) References: <001a01bfc82e$6505e840$0200a8c6@stealth> <00fa01bfc83d$d1ff6840$0100a8c0@alsv1.occa.home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"44byD.0.eG.ImNCv"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15386 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com myagent2@home.com wrote: > OK folks, here are some Hutchison videos: > http://www.geocities.com/freenrg61/index.html > > (FYI: I got permission from Mr. Hutchison first) > > I've got 3 .rm files each just under 15 MB. This geocities account will > only hold 15 MB. If you've got a home for them, let me know and I will FTP > them to you. OK, there's a problem here of some kind. I can access the first video, the second appears to be missing and the link to the third sends my browser to a porno site! WTF? Also note that the Poltergeist Machine links on Hutchinson's web page are also DEAD! Is someone trying to make this all go away?? ;) Let's see...Van de Graff generator...check. Three medium-sized tunable Tesla coils...yeah, with a little work...RF generator..check. 3 KW HF amplifier...check. microwave RF source..check. small dish antennas to focus the RF blasts..check -Now, what ELSE does this experiment require? (Aside from an expendable work area/laboratory?) ;) ("..If you see a bright flash...look AWAY!") -- --- "When it comes to paradigms, you must shift for yourself!" - Anon |-----------------------| | Systems Research Ltd. |------->"Any real-world system is more.. |-----------------------| ..than the mere sum of it's parts!" Erik K. Sorgatz (KB6LUY) http://home.earthlink.net/~eks1 From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 14:47:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA05447; Sun, 28 May 2000 14:45:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 14:44:58 -0700 Message-ID: <00ae01bfc8ed$d4070f20$1b3056c3@avd> From: "Aris" To: , References: <39273D16.7A484570@webzone.net> <39274885.EFB@cyberportal.net> Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 23:42:22 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"LEFKY1.0.mJ1.QDPCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15387 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Re: Aris under attack Hi Fella's!! I feel pretty much heading at me!! Started two weeks ago by reading a local magazine.. Our government had 100.000 gilders to spend for building a solarcel powered ferry!! I suppose 100.000 good reasons to scrub my balls and ask for some help (not for scrubbing!!).. Hopefully withing hours I manage to fix my compu and connection, cause I switch from house, so I can show you some design-sketches.. I honestly hope I can make some people as much enthiousastic as I am for the last few days, believe me I am very much at the viagra mood!! So, if you can handle, give me some thoughts!? This ferry needs to carry 12 persons and bicycles, we bike a lot overhere, and must be as much powered as possible by solar(free)nrg............ Smiling Regards, Aris!! From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 15:42:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA31327; Sun, 28 May 2000 15:40:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 15:40:25 -0700 Message-ID: <002501bfc8ec$ad46d240$b4122aa2@pii400> From: "marty s." To: References: <20000528102407.91325.qmail@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [FG]: No delusion !!! Working PMM Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 15:35:41 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"RqYGq2.0.Df7.O1QCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15388 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com I am very interested in this design and intend to build it but I have questions. How close must the magnets be? What is the pickup coil design? How many turns? Are they ferrite core coils? What size wire? Must you have 7 inches between rotors? Could it be less? Thanks for any help Marty Sorensen martyh@wmonline.com > << Hi there all, > This site was published by Jean 2 yrs a go or so, but take a good look at it > and read it all, we may be missing the real invention right here. > The original inventor of the PMM said these words. > > (When I have built the motor, I have used different types of thread in the > front axle versus the rear one who support the front and rear aluminum > sheets. This axle you turn clockwise using your finger according the > diagram. > I have got 600 RPM with ferrite magnets, 3000 RPM with NIB magnets and up to > 300 Watts/hour free electricity output with no electrical input.... > Following my instructions you will get every thing done....." (Nelson Camus) > > So all of you see this URL: > http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jlnaudin/html/trmdiag.htm > > and I think we should all build an experement of this simple PMM. > And perhaps even save this page on your PC just in case any one takes down > the site, so we can re-publish it again. > > I think the plans and instructions are as simple as it can be so no more > excuse lets get the job done... > > God Speed to all who will build this machine... > > Mehmet.>> From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 16:37:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA24466; Sun, 28 May 2000 16:35:33 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 16:35:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3931AD02.1FB74B35@csrlink.net> Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 19:34:27 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Reply-To: List:, http://www.H2OPower.listbot.com/@uplink.net Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael S. Johnston" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Akl_22.0.3-5.0rQCv"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15389 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Electrolysis Cells: Batteries That Don't Work Hi All, Let's consider this for a moment. Electrolysis cells are very much like batteries. Especially lead acid automotive batteries. Most of them have six cells wired in line to store electricity. If you overcharge a battery they start to produce hydrogen and oxygen gasses. All of the work that the electrolyte had to do in relation to storing up electricity in the form of chemical energy is done. Now the electricity is PASSING freely through the cells and as a by product of it's passage water is broken down into it's elements. Batteries have something called "Internal Resistance" which is figured based on the resistance's of the electrodes and the electrolyte. It usually works out to around 1.8 ohms per cell. Just about right to give the 2 volt drop across electrolysis cells. Is this electricity being "transformed" into chemical energy in the H2? NO-NO-NO! It is passing through with no work to do other than overcoming the internal resistance of the cell (this energy being transformed into heat energy)and as a by product of it's passing is releasing H2. That is a whole different ball game. I have been wrestling with this concept for a while and have tried to express it as best I could but I think I have it now. Take a hypothetical system like this: Let's take a car battery and overcharge it. We have to make sure that we can replace the water as we separate it because otherwise the battery will be damaged either by exposing the plates to air or by the concentration of the electrolyte becoming too strong. Next we will use a standard automotive ignition coil to supply it with electricity. That way it will be in a "loop" with the step up transformer and give us 30,000 volts or better to work with. Or maybe we'll use a capacitor to achieve the same effect. We can establish a potential difference of 30,000 volts between our electrodes and only draw as much as we need into our circuit through the coil. That will work right? WRONG! The potential difference of 30,000 volts DOES exist in the cell and that much electricity IS available to it BUT since the cell is only drawing 2 volts of power to maintain the circuit that is all the H2 that will be released per cell no matter how many of them you have hooked up in the loop! Sure, the more cells you have the more H2 you get but it will only be the equivalent of that 2v per cell in each one...UNLESS.... Unless you find a way to make that 30,000 volts FLOW THROUGH the cells on a continuous basis. It will THEN release an amount of H2 that is proportional to the 30,000 volts, not the 2 volts. This doesn't mean that it is USING the 30,000 volts. It's not. It is living up to Faraday' law which says that as much H2 will be evolved as the quantity of electricity that PASSES. Once it passes through all of your cells you still have all of the electricity that you started with except for the 2v lost in each cell due to the internal resistance of the cell. You still get your H2 evolved and still have most of your electricity left over afterward! That is the point I have been trying to get out. Yes you have to use that electricity somewhere but on a car you could put your separator between the coil and the distributor possibly and that way, as long as the car is running you are producing the fuel. That is the hurdle to overcome. Sure you can find electrolytes which are better catalysts or catalysts which work without as much energy being input but that just improves the efficiency within each cell (which is good). But it still doesn't clue you in to the bigger fact which is Just keep the electricity MOVING through your cell and you could probably generate enough H2 to run a car off of car batteries! They only cost about 70$ a piece so the cost isn't very prohibitive either. It is just another illustration of the principle that I showed you before with the H2 being burned and then recovering some (or all) of your fuel from the exhaust by catalyzing it with the waste heat it contained. It isn't real over unity any more than refining gasoline out of crude oil by the catalytic cracking of crude is. Actually the hydrogen/carbon bond is STRONGER than the hydrogen/oxygen bond. MJ From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 17:46:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA20464; Sun, 28 May 2000 17:44:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 17:44:47 -0700 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: [FG]: Is Water An Electrolyte? Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 20:58:39 -0400 Message-ID: <20000529005839859.AAA281@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"OGhVa3.0.f_4._rRCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15390 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tim writes: >>From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) >> Under some conditions for >>example, pure water will remain solid up to a temperature of 70 degrees F. > >What... ??? I never heard this... Under what conditions??? vacuum??? No, in fact it would be the opposite of a vacuum type condition. What I am referring to are known as clathrates, and I had a ton of links bookmarked on them that got vaporized a few weeks ago. Basically, clathrates are formed under high pressure, low temperature conditions. Pure water is squeezed around a gaseous molecule that is larger that the H20 molecules that surround it. Over time, there is a change in the basic alignments of the numerous H20 molecules that make it conform more closely to the inner gaseous molecule. The result is that an ice forms that has properties that more closely match that of the inner gaseous molecule in some regards. This happens naturally underwater on the sea floor, and has been a used as a method of actually "mining" fresh water from seawater. There is a pilot desalinisation plant in Hawaii that uses this technique. The US Government printing office puts out a very nice, FREE publication that is loaded with clathrate data. If I had the link readily at hand, I would give it to you, but you should be able to find it by doing a websearch. Fred Jaeger of the Eneco Corporation, the company that owned the Pons and Fleischman patent for a while, was one of the lead engineers listed on the publication. The most studied of the clathrates is the Methane Clathrate, which is available in enormous quantities on the ocean floor. It remains an ice up to about 55 degrees F, I believe. I would have to check that one to be exact, but it is in that neighborhood. It could be mined and brought to the surface in a timely enough fashion that it remains ice until the pure H20 can be melted off and the Methane released into a container. It has been found that there is enough Methane Clathrate on the ocean floor to power the entire planet for the next gazillion years, and provide fresh, pure water in the process. The only problem with the idea is that mining it is the same strip mining the ocean floor. The oil companies wouldn't mind doing that in the least, if they thought there was a buck in it, but it would kill every living thing just as completely as strip mining does on land. In my mind, it is a tempting, but ultimately stupid idea for an alternative fuel. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 18:42:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA08113; Sun, 28 May 2000 18:40:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 18:40:29 -0700 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: [FG]: Hutchinson effect (Real Video format) Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 21:54:23 -0400 Message-ID: <20000529015423421.AAA307@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"FXebx.0.c-1.CgSCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15391 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com eks writes: >OK, there's a problem here of some kind. I can access the first video, the >second >appears to be missing and the link to the third sends my browser to a porno >site! > >WTF? Which porno site? Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 19:49:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA01247; Sun, 28 May 2000 19:47:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 19:47:35 -0700 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: [FG]: Hutchinson effect Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 23:01:17 -0400 Message-ID: <20000529030117875.AAA299@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"Cl9NP1.0.1J.2fTCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15392 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Jim writes:. > I don't have the web site handy just now. > > Jim Thanks John, I actually have that URL somewhere, and went back it to before the followup article was written, evidently. I had assumed he was jailed by the comments made on the lists. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 20:16:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA10404; Sun, 28 May 2000 20:14:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 20:14:55 -0700 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: [FG]: [Fwd: Re: Real good evidence of H2 the only fuel !] Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 23:28:37 -0400 Message-ID: <20000529032837296.AAA348@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"-okzS2.0.LY2.d2UCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15393 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Erik writes: >Using Brown's Gas might be slightly better, we never tried it. The scientific mood >towards these sorts of things is near humorous amusement - believe me, the PhD's >in thermodynamics are never going to renounce the Carnot dogma unless and until >someone can SHOW THEM that it's possible to hydrolize on-board and then they >will most likely STILL not believe it for a few months! ;) It is a strange phenomenon Erik, but it can be understood if you look at it as the natural survival mechanism response of a professionally educated, certified PhD. They can even look at something happen in front of their own eyes, and deny that it has happened, if they feel that it puts their credibility, position or income at risk. If there is any hint at all that the technology under observation has been previously repressed, they seem to almost instinctively close ranks to protect their guild. Not all of them are like that of course, but the ones that are, I call The Gravy Trainers. They know where the simple, easy, safe, longterm funded research directions are, and they migrate towards those projects and basically just show up for work everyday. If they can protect their project from defunding, they can make a nice career out of it and not make any waves. It is not just basic human nature, but a learned behavior. If it were just a matter of protecting an income source, I wouldn't mind seeing it so much. When the repressed technology has the ability to save lives, or significantly make the world a better place, and the professionals act in concert to either continue to actively suppress the technology or just be silent about it, then they have crossed a line that to me is morally indefensible. Somehow, during their education, they seem to have developed an immunity to guilt in this regard, and once the double standard is in place, it is quite difficult to remove it without tearing down the entire structure that supports it. If they don't make changes on their own, history has repeatedly shown that the structure will either collapse under its own weight or someone from the outside will tear it down for them. I think that they are at the juncture now that they know that they must act fast and furious in one direction or the other. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 22:02:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA25974; Sun, 28 May 2000 22:00:34 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 22:00:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20000529045953.10117.qmail@web4402.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 21:59:53 -0700 (PDT) From: harvey norris Subject: Re: [FG]: Is Water An Electrolyte? To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"_dzGz.0.hL6.lbVCv"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15394 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com --- Michael T Huffman wrote: > Tim writes: > >>From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) > >> Under some conditions for > >>example, pure water will remain solid up to a > temperature of 70 degrees F. > > > >What... ??? I never heard this... Under what > conditions??? vacuum??? > > No, in fact it would be the opposite of a vacuum > type condition. What I am > referring to are known as clathrates, and I had a > ton of links bookmarked on > them that got vaporized a few weeks ago. Basically, > clathrates are formed > under high pressure, low temperature conditions. > Pure water is squeezed > around a gaseous molecule that is larger that the > H20 molecules that > surround it. Over time, there is a change in the > basic alignments of the > numerous H20 molecules that make it conform more > closely to the inner > gaseous molecule. The result is that an ice forms > that has properties that > more closely match that of the inner gaseous > molecule in some regards. This > happens naturally underwater on the sea floor, and > has been a used as a > method of actually "mining" fresh water from > seawater. There is a pilot > desalinisation plant in Hawaii that uses this > technique. > Thanx for this info Michael. I had heard of clathrates in the Puharich patent but had no idea what they were. I am reprinting the portion on pg 16 so that hopefully someone can comment on what they are talking about, as I am clueless, and not a medical doctor as was Puharich. Coincidentally this is following the previous quote already sent. "The pulsing amplitude modulation of the voltage is determined by the Hydrogen Nuclear Spin constant where t~ 3 sec.{I interpret that Puharich cycles his energy input into the device every 3 sec.} It is to be noted that the positive pulse spikes are followed by a negative after-potential. These pulse wave forms are identical to the classic nerve action potential spikes found in the nervous system of all living species that have a nervous system. The fact that these unipolar pulses were observed arising in water under the conditions of reversible threshold hydrolysis has a profound significance. These findings illuminate and confirm the Warren McCulloch Theory of water "crystal" dynamics as being the foundation of neural dynamics; and the converse theory of Linus Pauling which holds that water clathrate formation is the mechanism for neural anesthesia." I'm a little lost here, any clarification of meaning would be helpful. HDN ===== Binary Resonant Systemhttp://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb124201 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 22:19:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA15948; Sun, 28 May 2000 22:17:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 22:16:58 -0700 Message-Id: <200005290519.e4T5JR118550@bigbox.plug-in.com.br> From: "Marcelo Puhl" Organization: Computec Ltda To: interact@keelynet.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, energy21@listbot.com Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 02:22:05 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Reply-to: mark@plug-in.com.br Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12) Resent-Message-ID: <"Nm8Ml3.0.du3.7rVCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15395 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Vegetable powered web server ?!?! http://totl.net/Spud/ http://152.78.65.48:2300/ And the FAQ : http://totl.net/FAQ/features/spud/ Marcelo Puhl mark@plug-in.com.br ------------------------------------------- Get paid to surf the WEB ! Ganhe dinheiro enquanto surfa na Internet ! http://alladvantage.com/go.asp?refid=DTJ608 ------------------------------------------- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 22:55:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA28330; Sun, 28 May 2000 22:53:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 22:53:19 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000529134824.009f8750@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> X-Sender: jwinter@cyllene.uwa.edu.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 13:48:24 +0800 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: John Winterflood Subject: Re: [FG]: No delusion !!! Working PMM In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"F9bHg3.0.Vw6.ANWCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15396 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Nelson Camus wrote : >(When I have built the motor, I have used different types of >thread in the front axle versus the rear one who support the >front and rear aluminum sheets. This axle you turn clockwise >using your finger according the diagram. >I have got 600 RPM with ferrite magnets, 3000 RPM with NIB >magnets and up to 300 Watts/hour free electricity output with >no electrical input.... >Following my instructions you will get every thing done..... Jean-Louis wrote: >I have NOT SUCCEED in the self-running about the Reed's motor >according to the design from Neslon Camus....I think that this >design is nearly close to the original design of the Reed's >motor, but it seems that some parts or tuning procedures seems >missing in the Camus drawing. I have asked Nelson Camus about >this and he has answered me that he has succeeded after three >months of hard tuning... Dear Jean-Louis, Is Nelson Camus trustable? Are there any witnesses to this running motor before it went missing? What happened to that almost running motor of Helmut Goebkes? I haven't heard anything for a long time. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 22:59:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA03382; Sun, 28 May 2000 22:57:44 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 22:57:44 -0700 (PDT) From: JNaudin509@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 01:56:57 EDT Subject: Re: [FG]: No delusion !!! Working PMM To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id WAA03324 Resent-Message-ID: <"HVpKE2.0.fq.JRWCv"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15397 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Dans un courrier daté du 29/05/00 07:55:34 Paris, Madrid (heure d'été), jwinter@cyllene.uwa.edu.au a écrit : > Is Nelson Camus trustable? Are there any witnesses to this running > motor before it went missing? I have lost all contacts with Mr Camus.... :-( Regards Jean-Louis From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 23:32:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA10877; Sun, 28 May 2000 23:31:10 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 23:31:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <39320DD0.8D79F04C@harti.com> Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 08:27:28 +0200 From: Stefan Hartmann Organization: Hartmann Multimedia Service X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [de]C-CCK-MCD QXW03200 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, harvey norris Subject: Re: [FG]: Is Water An Electrolyte/natural rectifier? References: <20000528190020.26922.qmail@web4406.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"O8PjB.0.qf2.fwWCv"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15398 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Harvey, is this lightning bolt at: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/LaGrangeLn/teslafy/Dzl13B2.jpg occurring constantly all the time or only in a discharge like event and repeats every 5 seconds or so ?? > An estimated 10,000 volt > discharge to water is pictured from the system linked > to the previous icon at > http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/LaGrangeLn/teslafy/analomous.html -- Best regards, Stefan Hartmann. -- Hartmann Multimedia Service, Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498 email: harti@harti.com info@ccard.net http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB ! From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 23:35:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA07773; Sun, 28 May 2000 23:32:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 23:32:43 -0700 Message-ID: <39320E34.28AE3A62@harti.com> Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 08:29:08 +0200 From: Stefan Hartmann Organization: Hartmann Multimedia Service X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [de]C-CCK-MCD QXW03200 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, myagent2@home.com Subject: Re: [FG]: Hutchinson effect (Real Video format) References: <001a01bfc82e$6505e840$0200a8c6@stealth> <00fa01bfc83d$d1ff6840$0100a8c0@alsv1.occa.home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"52xj.0.Fv1.AyWCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15399 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi, I could only download the fist movie, could you please upload the 2 others too ? The links are just dead. Thanks ! myagent2@home.com schrieb: > > OK folks, here are some Hutchison videos: > http://www.geocities.com/freenrg61/index.html > > (FYI: I got permission from Mr. Hutchison first) > > I've got 3 .rm files each just under 15 MB. This geocities account will > only hold 15 MB. If you've got a home for them, let me know and I will FTP > them to you. -- Best regards, Stefan Hartmann. -- Hartmann Multimedia Service, Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498 email: harti@harti.com info@ccard.net http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB ! From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 23:57:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA15386; Sun, 28 May 2000 23:55:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 23:55:26 -0700 Message-ID: <39320FC4.5AE438D9@harti.com> Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 08:35:48 +0200 From: Stefan Hartmann Organization: Hartmann Multimedia Service X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [de]C-CCK-MCD QXW03200 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: Hutchinson effect References: <20000528091831109.AAA349@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Qc6WU2.0.Cm3.QHXCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15400 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com I guess it is more related to find the right BEAT frequencies of all the equipment ! Only Hutchinson himself knows the sound mixture noises, that makes this possible. He listens to it via his earphones and he tunes the frequencies with a knob. Then when he has the right beat noise in his earphone, things start to happen , e.g. lift up or brake apart. It is probably a very precise resonant frequency needed and all fields have to work together to reach the desired effects... Too bad, nobody has really measured there, what is going on. Maybe Mr. Hathaway does have a clue what is going on ? He is a pretty good measurement engineer. I met him once in 1987 in Toronta Canada, when he still worked for a technical exhibition park or something like this. Regards, Stefan. Michael T Huffman schrieb: > > Alik writes: > >I had an opporunity to experiment with/around John's machine in late 80's > >and as far as I can tell is PK. > > > >Alik S. > > Hi Alik, > > I think you are correct, but it looks as if it is an artificially amplified > or assisted version of PK. An analogy might include something like power > steering in a car. To my knowledge, no one has produced these effects with > such a degree of success without some kind of gear. The Torsion researchers > have narrowed down somewhat the parameters, but the results are still far > from well understood. Success sometimes seems to involve the coupling of > the mind's activity with fields that have yet to be well defined. The > nature of those fields, however are becoming more well understood, and like > anything else, will become a science with more experimentation, data > recording, and sharing of the techniques. > > Since the effects are so strange, unpredictable and powerful, a great deal > of consideration and caution should be incorporated into any experimental setup. > > Knuke > > Michael T. Huffman > Huffman Technology Company > 1121 Dustin Drive > The Villages, Florida 32159 > (352)259-1276 > knuke@LCIA.COM > http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm -- Best regards, Stefan Hartmann. -- Hartmann Multimedia Service, Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498 email: harti@harti.com info@ccard.net http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB ! From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 01:07:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA03757; Mon, 29 May 2000 01:05:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 01:05:49 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: Hutchinson effect Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 18:05:03 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20000528091831109.AAA349@mail.lcia.com@lizard> <39320FC4.5AE438D9@harti.com> In-Reply-To: <39320FC4.5AE438D9@harti.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id BAA03643 Resent-Message-ID: <"8d1KU1.0.Nw.QJYCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15401 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com In reply to Stefan Hartmann's message of Mon, 29 May 2000 08:35:48 +0200: >I guess it is more related to find the right BEAT >frequencies of all the equipment ! >Only Hutchinson himself knows the sound mixture noises, >that makes this possible. Can't he make a recording of the earphone signal? (It would help him too, because then he could use the recording to help analyse it). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 02:29:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA18859; Mon, 29 May 2000 02:27:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 02:27:15 -0700 Message-ID: <012501bfc950$1c8973c0$0201a8c0@m> From: "Michael Randall" To: References: <392EE531.1F5641EC@harti.com> Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 02:27:29 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"avwDV.0.Rc4.pVZCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15402 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Magnetic field Electrolyzer design Hi Stefan, Today, 5/29, I talked to Daniel Dingle. He is currently getting a patent on his "reactor," with help from his investors, with "patent pending" status within a month. With a "patent pending" status he can then start manufacturing and give more info on his design. German and Taiwanese electrical power plant manufacturers have also visited him and showed interest in using his hydrogen generator for fueling existing power plants. 1) His invention is a special "oil coating" applied on any metal. The oil is low cost, readily available and easy to manufacture. 2) This coating then makes a "magnetic field," which then enables very efficient H2 production. 3) The metal is then the basis for his "reactor" invention. He also is designing H2 uses in the kitchen, such as for cooking food. For powering buildings with two 12Vdc batteries that can convert dc to 220Vac. Regards, Michael Randall From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 02:58:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA21876; Mon, 29 May 2000 02:56:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 02:56:21 -0700 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: [FG]: Hutchinson effect Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 06:10:17 -0400 Message-ID: <20000529101017375.AAA328@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"6ASkL2.0.jL5.5xZCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15403 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Robin writes: >Can't he make a recording of the earphone signal? >(It would help him too, because then he could use the recording to help >analyse it). > > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk It might help to eliminate some of the PK from the hardware aspects, if the effects were able to be replicated to any degree at all without Hutchinson being there. If Hutchinson is tuning the devices to aether flows that are changing in direction, strength, and other characteristics, then a recording would be worthless. It would be like trying to sail a sailboat by doing the exact same things all the time. Sailing just doesn't work like that, and something tells me that this phenomenon doesn't either. It wouldn't hurt anything to record it though, and with enough data, there may be some good clues in there. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 06:18:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA19935; Mon, 29 May 2000 06:16:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 06:16:11 -0700 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: [FG]: Re: Aris under attack Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 09:29:58 -0400 Message-ID: <20000529132958500.AAA368@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"m6Ylf.0.Kt4.QscCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15404 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Aris writes: >Hi Fella's!! > >I feel pretty much heading at me!! Started two weeks ago by reading a local >magazine.. Our government had 100.000 gilders to spend for building a >solarcel powered ferry!! I suppose 100.000 good reasons to scrub my balls >and ask for some help (not for scrubbing!!).. > >Hopefully withing hours I manage to fix my compu and connection, cause I >switch from house, so I can show you some design-sketches.. I honestly hope >I can make some people as much enthiousastic as I am for the last few days, >believe me I am very much at the viagra mood!! > >So, if you can handle, give me some thoughts!? This ferry needs to carry 12 >persons and bicycles, we bike a lot overhere, and must be as much powered as >possible by solar(free)nrg............ > >Smiling Regards, >Aris!! Hi Aris! Sounds like a worthwhile and fun project, but it you have ever built a boat, you'll know that 100,000 gilders is not a lot of money. I haven't checked that exchange rate in years, so I don't know exactly how much it is in dollars, but I'm guessing around $50,000. I would need to know some more specs as to the conditions in which it would be running, but if it is just for canal work, you might be able to pull off something for that amount. If you are crossing the English Channel though, forget it. You'll need a real boat. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 06:51:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA26874; Mon, 29 May 2000 06:50:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 06:50:08 -0700 Message-ID: <000401bfc974$b1169620$fbd666ce@default> From: "Chris O'Barr" To: Subject: Re: [FG]: Re: Aris under attack Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 09:49:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"FiECe2.0.pZ6.GMdCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15405 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com $42,337.69 -----Original Message----- From: Michael T Huffman To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Monday, May 29, 2000 9:18 AM Subject: Re: [FG]: Re: Aris under attack >Aris writes: > >>Hi Fella's!! >> >>I feel pretty much heading at me!! Started two weeks ago by reading a local >>magazine.. Our government had 100.000 gilders to spend for building a >>solarcel powered ferry!! I suppose 100.000 good reasons to scrub my balls >>and ask for some help (not for scrubbing!!).. >> >>Hopefully withing hours I manage to fix my compu and connection, cause I >>switch from house, so I can show you some design-sketches.. I honestly hope >>I can make some people as much enthiousastic as I am for the last few days, >>believe me I am very much at the viagra mood!! >> >>So, if you can handle, give me some thoughts!? This ferry needs to carry 12 >>persons and bicycles, we bike a lot overhere, and must be as much powered as >>possible by solar(free)nrg............ >> >>Smiling Regards, >>Aris!! > >Hi Aris! > >Sounds like a worthwhile and fun project, but it you have ever built a boat, >you'll know that 100,000 gilders is not a lot of money. I haven't checked >that exchange rate in years, so I don't know exactly how much it is in >dollars, but I'm guessing around $50,000. I would need to know some more >specs as to the conditions in which it would be running, but if it is just >for canal work, you might be able to pull off something for that amount. If >you are crossing the English Channel though, forget it. You'll need a real >boat. > >Knuke >Michael T. Huffman >Huffman Technology Company >1121 Dustin Drive >The Villages, Florida 32159 >(352)259-1276 >knuke@LCIA.COM >http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 07:49:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA13309; Mon, 29 May 2000 07:47:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 07:47:29 -0700 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: [FG]: Re: Aris under attack Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 11:01:23 -0400 Message-ID: <20000529150123468.AAA368@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"6YEse.0.pF3.0CeCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15406 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Chris writes: > $42,337.69 Thanks, I went and looked it up myself on CNN.com after I posted. The Europeans are really taking a beating these days on the currency markets, and it makes it difficult for me to reckon out what it would cost to build anything over there. When I was living over there I used to watch that stuff like a hawk because I could get things through the Americans or whatever country I was in, and the price for the same thing could be quite different depending on who I got it from. It's one of those Milo Minderbinder scenarios. I could be drinking Napolean Brandy, smoking Havanas and eating shrimp tappas for a few dollars in Spain for example, but a McDonalds Hamburger might cost me 8 dollars. When the currency fluctuates a lot, things get even more weird. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 15:14:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA17843; Mon, 29 May 2000 15:12:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 15:12:51 -0700 Message-ID: <3932EB60.B445779@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 15:12:48 -0700 From: eks1 Reply-To: eks1@earthlink.net Organization: Systems Research Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,en-GB,en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rick Monteverde , "freenrg-L@eskimo.com" References: <001a01bfc82e$6505e840$0200a8c6@stealth> <00fa01bfc83d$d1ff6840$0100a8c0@alsv1.occa.home.com> <39317C10.FFD52B71@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"X4Bcn2.0.PM4.YjkCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15407 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: musings about the Hutchinson effect apparatus Rick Monteverde wrote: > Erik - > > >> -Now, what ELSE does this experiment require? > > Someone with PK abilities? > > What if that is the missing link? Keely, Leedskalin, maybe Hutchison. > It's been suggested. And it's one thing that completely defeats the > scientific method unless some insight is gained into the nature of > psychic abilities and environments which might enhance those > abilities. Then maybe work could move forward on it in a scientific > manner. Until then the whole field is hit or miss, well mixed with > the all too common fraud and delusion. > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI Hi Rick! Yeah, that thought does enter the picture, unfortunately. I am also a bit concerned at the sketchy way that the experimental apparatus is described. There hasnt been even ONE description of the layout of his gear, physical or otherwise! No pics! I suppose that a first trial might be something like: A Van De Graff generator in the middle, on a 2' high x 1' square wooden support, with the 3 Tesla coils 2' from the center on similar supports, arranged at 120 degree marks. The small parabolic dish antennas pointing inward between the Tesla coils, and set back 3'...or some such. It all seems so vague...why hasnt someone given us a picture of his equipment?? Some inventory of the make and model of each piece? A list of the components and their arrangement would be nice. As for the PK aspect..it's possible that this could preclude anyone duplicating the results - Hutchinson may have stumbled onto a particular configuration that acts as an Etheric Amplifier for his mind alone! This also raises the question of the possible consequences of attempting to "tune" such an assembly - certainly the Tesla coils inputs can be tuned, and/or modulated. Same goes for the microwave subsystem, but what frequencies? Is there a particular sequence of modulant-patterns necessary to "unlock" the effects? What I see when I visualize the apparatus is: 1) A relatively strong electrostatic field saturating the air around the VDG. 2) three Tesla coils pumping that space with a rich RF harmonic content, possibly tuned to some fundamental, it's third and fifth (or perhaps F, F/4 & F/6?) or some other triad of frequencies. Modulation of the inputs here might be useful. 3) some series of microwave sources, possibly with modulation applied and aimed into the space being stressed by the VDG and T-coils energy. The modulation may be the key - perhaps a careful sweeping of these, up and down while recording the settings (good place for IEEE-488 bus gear!) so as to gauge the effects. 4) It occurs to me that one or more large vertical helix coils surrounding the VDG and/or the T-coils might be added to somehow contain the energy/effects(?) or not. Obviously the experimenter would like to be away from the test-space volume, a Faraday screen so as to protect from RF burns, etcetra. It's possible that the application of such energies, might stress the local space-time metrics enough to change the laws of physics, if only for a moment. As for the PK element, I've never seen any really scientific data to prove that the "psychotronic" or "radionic" devices have any measurable effects - but there might be a Chaotic linkage between such things as mind, strange attractors and a chunk of space-time that is already stressed by electromagnetic forces. The Chaos theories and experiments with such strange attractors as the drippy faucet seem to point the way for such interactions, and might also point us towards a means of coupling the modulation stages to the "mind". A lightbeam pair across the drip path of a drippy faucet, suitably setup inside a box w/ Faraday screen and such...use the output as a K factor in figuring the modulation scheme....hmmmm. -- --- "When it comes to paradigms, you must shift for yourself!" - Anon |-----------------------| | Systems Research Ltd. |------->"Any real-world system is more.. |-----------------------| ..than the mere sum of it's parts!" Erik K. Sorgatz (KB6LUY) http://home.earthlink.net/~eks1 From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 16:05:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA32545; Mon, 29 May 2000 16:03:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 16:03:42 -0700 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: [FG]: Is Water An Electrolyte? Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 19:17:37 -0400 Message-ID: <20000529231737531.AAA363@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"IoYFi3.0.By7.DTlCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15408 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com HDN writes: >Thanx for this info Michael. I had heard of clathrates >in the Puharich patent but had no idea what they were. >I am reprinting the portion on pg 16 so that hopefully >someone can comment on what they are talking about, as >I am clueless, and not a medical doctor as was >Puharich. Coincidentally this is following the >previous quote already sent. > >"The pulsing amplitude modulation of the voltage is >determined by the Hydrogen Nuclear Spin constant where >t~ 3 sec.{I interpret that Puharich cycles his energy >input into the device every 3 sec.} It is to be noted >that the positive pulse spikes are followed by a >negative after-potential. These pulse wave forms are >identical to the classic nerve action potential spikes >found in the nervous system of all living species that >have a nervous system. The fact that these unipolar >pulses were observed arising in water under the >conditions of reversible threshold hydrolysis has a >profound significance. These findings illuminate and >confirm the Warren McCulloch Theory of water "crystal" >dynamics as being the foundation of neural dynamics; >and the converse theory of Linus Pauling which holds >that water clathrate formation is the mechanism for >neural anesthesia." > >I'm a little lost here, any clarification of meaning >would be helpful. HDN Hi Harvey, Yeah, I'm in the weeds here too. I know it is hard to believe that there is a crazy inventor that is supposed to be fairly expert on water anomolies that hasn't read the Puharich patent yet, but here I am. I've never built a Tesla coil either, which boggles the minds of many of the nutcases that I hang around with. I never saw The Wizard of Oz until I was in my late thirties, so even as crazy inventors go, my life has been non-standard in many ways. The basics of nervous system electrical signal conduction is news to me as well. Dr. Mitchell Swartz is probably the one to field this question. The idea that water can form structures that are somewhat like polymers is not new to me, and I am quite aware of the work done by Pappas, and Benveniste. There is another guy in Australia that I've been trying to track down named Tiberius Horvath that has been working along similar lines, I believe. For some reason I never made the connection with clathrates, but the clathrate phenomenon certainly does support their theories. It indicates that water is capable of forming intermediate bonds that are neither crystaline nor liquid. It also indicates that if H20 molecules are capable of self organizing and forming larger structures that have much different properties than the normal, then perhaps other simple molecules are able to do the same under the right conditions. It also is a very good example of how something like the freezing point of water can be taught as being a constant, when it is not. Thanks for pointing this out about the Puharich patent. One of these days I've have to actually read the whole thing. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 18:12:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA03400; Mon, 29 May 2000 18:11:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 18:11:45 -0700 Message-ID: <000001bfc992$4536f120$82b422cf@a9o0z0> From: "Alik S" To: Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 17:17:55 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"kae3R1.0.zq.GLnCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15409 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Fw: [FG]: musings about the Hutchinson effect apparatus -----Original Message----- From: Alik S To: eks1@earthlink.net Date: Monday, May 29, 2000 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [FG]: musings about the Hutchinson effect apparatus > >-----Original Message----- >From: eks1 >To: Rick Monteverde ; freenrg-L@eskimo.com > >Date: Monday, May 29, 2000 10:13 PM >Subject: [FG]: musings about the Hutchinson effect apparatus > > >> >> >>Rick Monteverde wrote: >> >>> Erik - >>> >>> >> -Now, what ELSE does this experiment require? >>> >>> Someone with PK abilities? >>> >>> What if that is the missing link? Keely, Leedskalin, maybe Hutchison. >>> It's been suggested. And it's one thing that completely defeats the >>> scientific method unless some insight is gained into the nature of >>> psychic abilities and environments which might enhance those >>> abilities. Then maybe work could move forward on it in a scientific >>> manner. Until then the whole field is hit or miss, well mixed with >>> the all too common fraud and delusion. >>> >>> - Rick Monteverde >>> Honolulu, HI >> >> Hi Rick! >> >> Yeah, that thought does enter the picture, unfortunately. I am also a >>bit concerned >>at the sketchy way that the experimental apparatus is described. There >>hasnt been >>even ONE description of the layout of his gear, physical or otherwise! No >>pics! >> > > >I spent a year building / wiring / figuring out John's set up circa 1987/8. >There is NO secret configuration, waveform or any other electrical magic. As >far as US gov guys are concerned its PK. John just blew whole bunch of >building plumbing using a bunch of old radios and no VDGs/TCs etc etc etc >etc. There had to be effects all over the place because eventually the >police showed up. > >Alik S. > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 18:14:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA04814; Mon, 29 May 2000 18:13:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 18:13:51 -0700 Message-ID: <000f01bfc992$90403b40$82b422cf@a9o0z0> From: "Alik S" To: Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 17:23:09 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"cC3gc.0.3B1.FNnCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15410 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Fw: [FG]: musings about the Hutchinson effect apparatus -----Original Message----- From: Alik S To: eks1@earthlink.net Date: Monday, May 29, 2000 4:45 PM Subject: Re: [FG]: musings about the Hutchinson effect apparatus >One more thing re H-effect. When John was unhappy with what was happening in >Vancouver while he was in Germany, all sorts of mechanical things (cars , 5 >ton trucks ) started failing mysteriously until eventually a tailgate broke >on a 5t truck causing 1000lb transformer to land in the lap of the person >who caused John's problems in the first place. > >Been there , seen that , regretfully had to lift the xfrmr off the said >moron :-) > >Alik S. > > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 18:20:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA07133; Mon, 29 May 2000 18:20:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 18:20:16 -0700 Message-ID: <00a301bfc9d4$415b1080$649f10cf@drosigno> Reply-To: "David Rosignoli" From: "David Rosignoli" To: , "Rick Monteverde" , References: <001a01bfc82e$6505e840$0200a8c6@stealth> <00fa01bfc83d$d1ff6840$0100a8c0@alsv1.occa.home.com> <39317C10.FFD52B71@earthlink.net> <3932EB60.B445779@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [FG]: musings about the Hutchinson effect apparatus Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 21:13:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"sg2lH1.0.Ml1.GTnCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15411 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com PACE (Planetary Association for Clean Energy) sells "The Hutchison File", which is a bound 83 page booklet that describes the Hutchison effect, including a description of the layout of some of his equipment - this was excerpted from Electric Spacecraft Journal # 9. I have still to read it, but I am sure that the description is probably incomplete. Nonetheless, the booklet is worth getting if one is interested in the Hutchison Effect. ----- Original Message ----- From: eks1 To: Rick Monteverde ; Sent: Monday, May 29, 2000 6:12 PM Subject: [FG]: musings about the Hutchinson effect apparatus > > > Rick Monteverde wrote: > > > Erik - > > > > >> -Now, what ELSE does this experiment require? > > > > Someone with PK abilities? > > > > What if that is the missing link? Keely, Leedskalin, maybe Hutchison. > > It's been suggested. And it's one thing that completely defeats the > > scientific method unless some insight is gained into the nature of > > psychic abilities and environments which might enhance those > > abilities. Then maybe work could move forward on it in a scientific > > manner. Until then the whole field is hit or miss, well mixed with > > the all too common fraud and delusion. > > > > - Rick Monteverde > > Honolulu, HI > > Hi Rick! > > Yeah, that thought does enter the picture, unfortunately. I am also a > bit concerned > at the sketchy way that the experimental apparatus is described. There > hasnt been > even ONE description of the layout of his gear, physical or otherwise! No > pics! > > I suppose that a first trial might be something like: A Van De Graff > generator in the > middle, on a 2' high x 1' square wooden support, with the 3 Tesla coils > 2' from the > center on similar supports, arranged at 120 degree marks. The small > parabolic dish > antennas pointing inward between the Tesla coils, and set back 3'...or > some such. > > It all seems so vague...why hasnt someone given us a picture of his > equipment?? > Some inventory of the make and model of each piece? A list of the > components > and their arrangement would be nice. > > As for the PK aspect..it's possible that this could preclude anyone > duplicating the > results - Hutchinson may have stumbled onto a particular configuration > that acts as > an Etheric Amplifier for his mind alone! This also raises the question > of the possible > consequences of attempting to "tune" such an assembly - certainly the > Tesla coils > inputs can be tuned, and/or modulated. Same goes for the microwave > subsystem, > but what frequencies? Is there a particular sequence of modulant-patterns > necessary > to "unlock" the effects? > > What I see when I visualize the apparatus is: > > 1) A relatively strong electrostatic field saturating the air around the > VDG. > 2) three Tesla coils pumping that space with a rich RF harmonic content, > possibly > tuned to some fundamental, it's third and fifth (or perhaps F, F/4 & > F/6?) or some > other triad of frequencies. Modulation of the inputs here might be > useful. > 3) some series of microwave sources, possibly with modulation applied and > aimed > into the space being stressed by the VDG and T-coils energy. The > modulation may > be the key - perhaps a careful sweeping of these, up and down while > recording the > settings (good place for IEEE-488 bus gear!) so as to gauge the effects. > 4) It occurs to me that one or more large vertical helix coils > surrounding the VDG > and/or the T-coils might be added to somehow contain the > energy/effects(?) or not. > > Obviously the experimenter would like to be away from the test-space > volume, a > Faraday screen so as to protect from RF burns, etcetra. > > It's possible that the application of such energies, might stress the > local space-time > metrics enough to change the laws of physics, if only for a moment. > > As for the PK element, I've never seen any really scientific data to > prove that the > "psychotronic" or "radionic" devices have any measurable effects - but > there might > be a Chaotic linkage between such things as mind, strange attractors and > a chunk > of space-time that is already stressed by electromagnetic forces. > > The Chaos theories and experiments with such strange attractors as the > drippy > faucet seem to point the way for such interactions, and might also point > us towards > a means of coupling the modulation stages to the "mind". A lightbeam > pair across > the drip path of a drippy faucet, suitably setup inside a box w/ Faraday > screen and > such...use the output as a K factor in figuring the modulation > scheme....hmmmm. > -- > --- > "When it comes to paradigms, you must shift for yourself!" - Anon > > |-----------------------| > | Systems Research Ltd. |------->"Any real-world system is more.. > |-----------------------| ..than the mere sum of it's parts!" > Erik K. Sorgatz (KB6LUY) http://home.earthlink.net/~eks1 > > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 22:08:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA17094; Mon, 29 May 2000 22:06:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 22:06:55 -0700 Reply-To: "Sparky" From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: [FG]: Fw: [FG]: musings about the Hutchinson effect apparatus Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 01:05:39 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <000001bfc992$4536f120$82b422cf@a9o0z0> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"bK429.0.xA4.knqCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15412 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com A review of equipment in his lab was published in "Electric Spacecraft Journal" Issue #9 Aug 16th, 1993 which will cause you to scratch your head for a substantial period of time. I guess I understand the "PK" claim, given the range of stuff shown and the lack of any clear cut experiments. One thought: some of the samples shown in the movie could have been generated by intense electromagnetic discharge, the text shows a few pulse generator and capacitor arrangements that were pretty impressive. Alik mentions a test involing a bunch of radios, nothing else? Could you post more on this? Oh yeah, set your browsers to ask on script execution. You'll avoid being jammed into a porn site by that damn "framebuster" javascript. And a big "Bite Me" to myagent2 for that bit of foolishness. Damn son, just post the files. K. >> Yeah, that thought does enter the picture, unfortunately. I am also a >>bit concerned >>at the sketchy way that the experimental apparatus is described. There >>hasnt been >>even ONE description of the layout of his gear, physical or otherwise! No >>pics! >> > > >I spent a year building / wiring / figuring out John's set up circa 1987/8. >There is NO secret configuration, waveform or any other electrical magic. As >far as US gov guys are concerned its PK. John just blew whole bunch of >building plumbing using a bunch of old radios and no VDGs/TCs etc etc etc >etc. There had to be effects all over the place because eventually the >police showed up. > >Alik S. > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 22:11:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA18441; Mon, 29 May 2000 22:09:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 22:09:34 -0700 From: tv@juno.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 22:06:42 -0700 Subject: Re: [FG]: Hutchison effect Message-ID: <20000529.221113.-224173.0.tv@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 3.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,5-6,8-9,11-12,14-15,17-18,21-23,25-29 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 Resent-Message-ID: <"B4IG11.0.2W4.DqqCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15413 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Unlike some of the characters we talk about on this list, John Hutchison is friendly and good natured. He will answer the phone and talk to another interested investigator. He does not seem to be on the Internet or e-mail. His web site is not really his but a fellow named Solis in Mississippi. If I were to call him, there are a few questions I would like to ask John, they are: What would you recommend as an arrangement of equipment to achieve the "levitation" effects ? Has there ever been a case were some of these effects have occurred with someone else operating the equipment ? Have there ever been any of these effects with someone else controlling the equipment and you (John H.) not present ? Has there ever been a case of one these effects (levitation, disruptions, etc.) occurring without the equipment being on and you (John H.) being present ? A question to the FREENRG list, What other questions would be good to ask ? Perhaps some of these questions are already answered in a book ? Tim V. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 22:32:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA23811; Mon, 29 May 2000 22:30:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 22:30:38 -0700 Message-ID: <001c01bfc9f7$6b8756c0$7d79fea9@oemcomputer> From: "Anna M*" To: , , "energy21" , Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 22:25:03 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"yODCg1.0.pp5.-7rCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15414 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Fw: On Tesla: Chariots of the New Millenium (fwd) > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 17:07:22 -0400 (EDT) > From: William Shannon > Subject: [CTRL] Chariots of the New Millenium > > Chariots of the New Millenium > > Are the Dreams of Nicola Tesla and His Followers Approaching > Reality > > By Bruce R. Meland > > With an oil glut worldwide, and resulting low gas prices > here in the US, major oil companies are merging and laying off > thousands of employees to remain financially healthy (in other > words, to maintain high executive salaries and stock options). As > a result, it is very difficult to get the American public > interested in alternate fuel automobiles, specifically, cleaner, > quieter and more energy efficient electric, hybrid electric, or > fuel cell vehicles. > > Last year Ford Motor Company sold about 800,000 sport > utility vehicles and canceled some of the more energy efficient > lines. The primary American automotive concern, at the present, > seems to be congestion, or gridlock. Fast-growing big cities like > Seattle and Atlanta with little alternate transportation > experience stop and go freeways. Commuters are late to work and > valuable company time is wasted. And if an accident occurs on the > freeway, traffic backs up for miles, adding hours instead of > minutes of delay time. Frustration! Road Rage! Motorists shooting > motorists! There must be a better way. > > The Germans seem to have one. I visited Berlin this summer > where they just completed their third station, for new 150 mph > ICE trains, where you can catch commuter rail or the underground > to almost any spot in the city. > > Very few US cities offer alternatives such as light rail, > commuter rail (trains using existing tracks), an effective bus > system, or even enough parking space for the glut of private > autos. Very few US commuters are aware of the physical, mental, > and economic dangers due to auto congestion and tailpipe > emissions. Only if air pollution alerts are issued during air > stagnation conditions (extreme cases: Mexico City and recently > Tehran), do most city dwellers realize their health is at risk. > An air pollution threat occurs almost every time traffic is in a > gridlock situation and the vehicles ahead gas the occupants > behind. Feel blessed if the car in front of you is electric! > > Cars at idle emit two to three times as many > health-damaging pollutants as at normal operating speeds. The > link between diesel exhaust and cancer has already been > established, and a distinct correlation exists between hospital > visits due to respiratory problems and air pollution alerts. With > increasing intercity pollution, US metropolitan areas will soon > follow their European counterparts and create emission free zones > where fossil fuel cars will be prohibited. Only electric cars, or > ZEV's (zero emission vehicles), bicycles and mass transit will be > allowed. > > Another net effect of millions of cars on the road > worldwide is the constantly increasing emission of greenhouse > gasses and the resulting major contribution to global warming. > Such mass tailpipe emissions are threatening the planet and are a > likely culprit for extreme weather patterns (severe weather) > worldwide. 1998 experienced the warmest average temperatures in > history. And let us not forget other harms to the environment > from such as the Exxon Valdez, Scottish North Sea and Russian > Arctic oil spills, and the resultant destruction of animal life > and human property. > > A related catastrophe, the Honduras flooding, apparently > resulted from severe weather and the clear cutting of > rainforests. When no extensive root systems or tree structures > were available to absorb the excess rain and wind, the > consequence was mass destruction of public bridges, buildings, > private property and human lives. > > Another result of the excessive self-indulgent use of oil > in the US is the aggravation of trade deficits with countries > like Nigeria, Mexico, Indonesia and in the Middle East. The > result is a money drain from the US, meaning less commerce and > less jobs. Moreover the money paid for the oil goes mostly to > privileged leaders or dictators and does not trickle down to the > masses. Consequently there is, in these countries, no emerging > middle class to buy our goods and services-no cars, (of course > they wouldn't want most of our cars because they are too big and > use too much gas), computers, appliances, wheat, lumber or > apples. So the US economy slows and American jobs are eliminated. > > Meanwhile a silent revolution has been emerging since the > 70s. Hands-on engineers, electrical wizards, high school and > university students have used standard power electronics to > revive the electric car, that lost out to Henry Ford and Standard > Oil in the early 1900s. Spurred on by the Oil Crisis of the mid > 70s, electric cars, mainly conversions, started reappearing. Most > EV converters wanted better range. The followers of Nikola Tesla > started researching his work to discover how he managed to power > his own electric car to great distances on a single charge. > Inventor Rory Johnson developed, designed and operated a 525 HP > fuel cell motor with a range of 100,000 miles that operated on > two pounds of deuterium and gallium. The government attempted to > block his research, apparently, because of the threat to gas > taxes. Oil companies didn't want it because it threatened their > monopoly. Johnson was run out of his Illinois shop to California > where he died under mysterious circumstances. Similar stories on > other inventors appear frequently in the literature. > > Highly efficient magnetic motors are also under > development. Joseph Newman claims his revolutionary magnetic > motor technology was stolen and now appears in the MinnKota > outboard trolling motor. This motor is claimed to be the most > efficient electric trolling motor on the planet. > > Researchers have also tried to duplicate Pons and > Fliechman's Cold Fusion (low-level transmutation of elements) > work, announced in 1989 at the University of Utah. Attempts to > harness this technology for use in auto propulsion have not > materialized yet but work continues worldwide. One promising > application of this rather recent discovery-rapid decay of' > nuclear waste-could greatly help the nuclear industry clean up > its mess and perhaps enable it to better meet the additional > power demands for electric cars. > > This technology also poses a threat to entrenched interests > in the nuclear cleanup industry. Instead of nuclear waste being > easily and cheaply disposed of on the power plant site, it now > must be expensively glassified and hauled to Yucca Mountain, > Nevada. Disposal companies stand to make billions preparing; > hauling and disposing of such waste. They, apparently, have > little interest in seeing an easier, safer, cheaper way of doing > the job. > > In the meantime, auto manufacturers and advanced battery > companies, spurred on by California mandates (10% of all vehicles > sold in California in 2003 must be zero emission); and millions > of dollars in grants and incentives from federal, state and local > governments are forging ahead one step at a time with electric, > hybrid electric (half gas and half electric), and fuel cell > powered vehicles. The Advanced Battery Consortium (half auto > industry half government funded) alone, is spending $60,000,000 > in the development of the lithium polymer battery. Millions of > dollars have also been spent on other advanced battery > developments, such as Nickel Metal Hydride and Lithium ion > batteries. Most major auto manufacturers worldwide are developing > these emission-free, or ultra low emission vehicles. The electric > vehicle movement is gaining visibility nationwide through > exposure at EV Expositions, and electric car races and rallies > nationwide, such as the American Tour de Sol, in the Northeast, > National Electric Drag Racing Championships in Oregon, Aps > Electrics in Phoenix, and the inaugural 99 Southwest Tour de > Arizona, an EV rally around Phoenix. > > Enter stage right, major auto EV and HEV productions: > General Motors spent $300 million developing the EV1, a presently > a sporty electric coup, for LA, Bay Area, and Phoenix yuppies. > The EV1 has high performance and now a range of 120 miles on a > charge, using nickel metal hydride batteries (NiMH). The 99 > electric Ford Ranger pickup has fast charging capabilities for > its lead acid batteries, (charge it in 20 minutes for another 60 > miles) as well as NiMH batteries for longer ranges. The Toyota > RAV4 EV, The Honda EV Plus, and the Chrysler EPIC Electric Van > now go over 100 miles on a charge. The Nissan Altra has a range > of 120 miles, using lithium ion batteries. These initial EV > models are expensive ($40,000) and are leased for around > $400/month. Fast charging stations are being installed all over > LA, the Bay Area, Sacramento, Phoenix, NY and Atlanta. These > installations are heavily subsidized by the Electric Utilities > nationwide. Budget now has an EV Rent-a-Car operation at the LA > Airport renting several EVs from the major auto companies for > about $40 per day. > > Toyota with the Prius was the first to market a hybrid > electric vehicle (HEV) in Japan. It gets about 50 mpg, and does > not pollute while trapped in gridlock. The highly efficient gas > motor shuts off when stopped, and starts on electric power. US > and European sales of the Prius will begin in mid 2000. 25,000 > Prius' are now running the roads in Japan with great success. > Other auto companies worldwide also see high market potential for > hybrids and will soon enter the market. Hybrid and fuel cell > busses are also being produced on a limited basis in America, > Europe, and Japan. European car companies also have electric cars > on the road and a European company, ZEVCO has a fuel cell London > Taxi operating in the UK. > > > Bruce Meland is editor of the magazine Electrifying Times which > has covered the emergence of cleaner vehicles for the last seven > years. For a copy of his special Preview 2000 issue presenting 40 > electric, hybrid electric, and fuel cell vehicles, including > electric bicycles. > > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 23:26:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA07056; Mon, 29 May 2000 23:24:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 23:24:41 -0700 From: myagent2@home.com Message-ID: <000901bfca00$0f598900$0100a8c0@alsv1.occa.home.com> To: References: <000001bfc992$4536f120$82b422cf@a9o0z0> Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 23:26:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"0MMiT2.0.5k1.fwrCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15415 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Re: Fw: [FG]: musings about the Hutchinson effect apparatus What's PK? Psycho Kinesis??? (speeling?) > >far as US gov guys are concerned its PK. John just blew whole bunch of > >building plumbing using a bunch of old radios and no VDGs/TCs etc etc etc > >etc. There had to be effects all over the place because eventually the > >police showed up. > > > >Alik S. > > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 00:35:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA19520; Tue, 30 May 2000 00:33:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 00:33:26 -0700 Message-ID: <39336ECA.F572A43D@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 00:33:30 -0700 From: eks1 Reply-To: eks1@earthlink.net Organization: Systems Research Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,en-GB,en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: Re: Fw: [FG]: musings about the Hutchinson effect apparatus References: <000001bfc992$4536f120$82b422cf@a9o0z0> <000901bfca00$0f598900$0100a8c0@alsv1.occa.home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"qmDA8.0.vm4.4xsCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15416 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com myagent2@home.com wrote: > What's PK? Psycho Kinesis??? (speeling?) Yep, movement of matter by the influence of mind alone. As an aside Myagent2, what the hell is your excuse for claiming to present 3 .rm videos on Hutchinson, and then sending people's browsers off to a porno site? DONT YOU KNOW THAT SORT OF NONSENSE IS FORBIDDEN HERE? You'll be lucky if Bill doesnt banish you... --- "When it comes to paradigms, you must shift for yourself!" - Anon |-----------------------| | Systems Research Ltd. |------->"Any real-world system is more.. |-----------------------| ..than the mere sum of it's parts!" Erik K. Sorgatz (KB6LUY) http://home.earthlink.net/~eks1 From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 05:40:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA15976; Tue, 30 May 2000 05:38:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 05:38:35 -0700 Message-ID: <004f01bfca34$2e3ca620$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> From: "Sam Garza" To: References: <393033A8.3DEFE69D@csrlink.net> Subject: Re: [FG]: Is Water An Electrolyte? Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 08:40:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Resent-Message-ID: <"f25UM1.0.Xv3.APxCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15417 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com I have done a lot of testing with water using 316L stainless plates and I can tell you pure steam distilled water does not conduct electricity until you add an electrolyte. The sulfuric acid mentioned in your no 2 is the electrolyte. Michael Faraday was back in the early 1800s and was probably using clean water from some source and it has minerals(electrolytes) in it. Standard tap water today is loaded with minerals and conducts electricity very well, but they will quickly coat the positive and negative plates with minerals too. which is why you use distilled water in the first place. Now as to the lead and patina that Michael used. What is patina? ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Johnston To: Michael S. Johnston Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2000 4:44 PM Subject: [FG]: Is Water An Electrolyte? > Hi All, > During the last several months I have been doing quite a bit of > reading about water. One of the most interesting things that I found out > was that there is quite a bit of variation from book to book regarding > the most basic attributes of water. These aren't pseudo science books > written by amateurs with a cause to prove (or product to sell) either. > They are, for the most part, college level textbooks on chemistry, > physics and electricity. > I guess that explains why there has been such disagreement on these > lists when I happen to state something from one of these books. It looks > like we are all taught something different in this matter depending on > which book our instructors decided to use! > If something as simple as whether or not water conducts electricity > is taught in such contradictory fashion from book to book and only one > version can be right, then how much of the rest of the information that > we are taught regarding the physical sciences is any more accurate? > To prove my point I would like to quote some statements directly out > of the books to which I refer and let you be the judge. > 1) " Electrolysis is used to break down water, which is a compound of > Hydrogen and oxygen, into it's component gasses. The difficulty here, > however, is that PURE WATER IS NOT AN ELECTROLYTE AND WILL NOT CONDUCT > ELECTRICITY." > From: Electricity for Electricians > By: Abraham Marcus > Special printing for the National Joint Apprenticeship Committee for the > Electrical Industry > Printed By: Prentice-Hall,inc. > Englewood Cliffs, NJ > > 2) "The cell then, consists of two electrodes.....and AN ELECTROLYTE > that is for the most part distilled (pure) WATER. There is some Sulfuric > Acid mixed with the water but in the uncharged state IT'S PRESENCE IS > INSIGNIFICANT." > Electricity one-seven > By: Harry Mileat, Editor in Chief > Hayden Book Company inc. > > 3) "In the preceding discussions it has been assumed that water is a > non-conductor of electricity in conductivity determinations. It IS FOUND > HOWEVER, BY PRECISE MEASUREMENT THAT EVEN HIGHLY PURIFIED WATER DOES > CONDUCT ELECTRICITY TO A SLIGHT EXTENT. IT MUST BE THAT WATER ITSELF IS > DISASSOCIATED INTO POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE IONS AND SHOULD BE CLASSIFIED > AS A WEAK ELECTROLYTE." > From: Chemistry > By: Michell J. Sienko and Robert A. Plane > Assoc. Prof. of Chem Asst. Prof. of Chem. > Cornell Univ. Cornell Univ. > Printed By: McGraw-Hill Book Company > Ny,Toronto,London > > 4) "A Plate of clean lead and a plate of patina were put into PURE > WATER. THERE WAS IMMEDIATELY A POWERFUL CURRENT PRODUCED FROM THE LEAD > THROUGH THE WATER TO THE PATINA..........Here no action of acid or > alkali on the oxide formed from the lead could supply the electricity: > IT WAS DUE SOLELY TO THE OXIDATION OF THE METAL (BY THE WATER)." > "The water, as water, cannot conduct electricity OR AT LEAST > ONLY SO SMALL A PROPORTION THAT IT IS MERELY AN INCIDENTAL EFFECT." > Michael Farady > Letters to the Royal Society > Circa 1834 > > As you can easily see, any of these sources of information could be > cited as a valid source of information by someone who wanted to "prove" > a point. Unfortunately there are two seemingly entirely opposite > conclusions here which are both presented by various, credentialed > authors as being equally valid Both sides cannot be correct and so how > is anyone supposed to do any valid further research if even these most > basic concepts must be proved or disproved all over again before they > even start? > MJ > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 06:05:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA26317; Tue, 30 May 2000 06:03:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 06:03:50 -0700 Message-ID: <006801bfca37$b594c0a0$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> From: "Sam Garza" To: References: <001801bfc809$03a6ff00$a2a134d1@a9o0z0> Subject: Re: [FG]: Hutchinson effect Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 09:05:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Resent-Message-ID: <"1SES3.0.2R6.smxCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15418 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Alik, What is PK? ----- Original Message ----- From: Alik S To: Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2000 2:26 PM Subject: Re: [FG]: Hutchinson effect > I wonder with all these > >unknowns if I would ever leave a kitchen knife laying around while > producing > >the effect. Seems a bit dangerous to me. > > > Actually one of the more spectacular 'artifacts' that John has is a kitchen > knife burried inside a piece of metal that was part of some machine. > > I had an opporunity to experiment with/around John's machine in late 80's > and as far as I can tell is PK. > > Alik S. > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Jim Uban > >To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com > >Date: Saturday, May 27, 2000 5:45 PM > >Subject: [FG]: Hutchinson effect > > > > > >> I was lucky enough to attend the INE'94 > >>where John Hutchinson and George Hathaway gave > >>a joint presentation about the Hutchinson effect(s). > >> This was truly the most amazing presentation > >>and set of information I've ever experienced. > >> G. Hathaway is a consulting engineer (EE) in > >>Canada, and worked with Hutchinson for some time > >>to help quantify the effects or learn how to make > >>them more reliable (that program was a failure) > >>and to generate external interest, for further > >>research support. > >> George H showed some of the videos of > >>the effects, the levitations being quite mind- > >>boggling, ranging from globs of ice cream pulling > >>out of a container an flying up, to a very heavy > >>cannon ball floating about 18" off the wooden > >>surface and occasionally rotating a bit - quite > >>errie! > >> John H presented as well, from his point > >>of view of tuning the apparatus, which was always > >>a sort of feeling thing which he had to settle > >>into - he apparantly can sense the fields/ions > >>and has learned how to get the apparatus into > >>its 'groove'. Even so, it may take him days to > >>get the equipment to respond. Who knows what > >>external variables go into it, such as humidity. > >> Particularly interesting were the descriptions > >>of effects on materials, mostly metals. Some alloys > >>would start so separate into layers of distinct elements. > >>Steel rods would break apart with no heating effects. > >>Several of the materials were brought along for > >>inspection by the attendees. I held a standard > >>extruded bar of aluminum, normal except for the > >>piece of wood which was now embedded in it, the > >>latter not having been heated to charring, nor > >>the aluminum showing signs of melting. Another > >>aluminum bar had been milled down to the stainless > >>steel table knife which was now half embedded in > >>the bar, again with no evidence of melting in > >>the case of the aluminum. A copper bus bar > >>had expended in the center into 4 separate > >>bars joining at each end. > >> The whole presentation was impressive > >>and left no doubt that here is a wide range > >>of effects, presently 'unknown', of electromagnetics > >>on various materials. Possibly this goes beyond > >>EM, involving the researcher's consciousness as > >>well, as only when John H was present did the > >>machinery ever fully produce the effects. On > >>the other hand, John had learned to tune the > >>equipment over the course of many years. > >> Also pointed out was the the lab was > >>a pack rat's accumulation of every possible > >>electromagnetic device. John H was always > >>inclined to add more equipment, not pare it > >>down to hone in on the component sources of > >>the effect. Just his nature - having fun! > >> The proceedings of this are available: > >>http://www.padrak.com/ine/INE5.html > >> as well as the videos/audios of the > >>conference. The list shows Hutchinson only, > >>but both he and Hathaway presented. (Hathaway > >>also had another presentation). So, I don't > >>know if the videos are separate for their > >>two halves of the Hutchinson material, as > >>I haven't ordered the videos. > >> Jim > >> > > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 07:14:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA21245; Tue, 30 May 2000 07:11:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 07:11:54 -0700 Message-ID: <3933CB55.1A4EE89E@harti.com> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 16:08:21 +0200 From: Stefan Hartmann Organization: Hartmann Multimedia Service X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [de]C-CCK-MCD QXW03200 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, alik@intergate.bc.ca Subject: Re: [FG]: Fw: [FG]: musings about the Hutchinson effect apparatus References: <000001bfc992$4536f120$82b422cf@a9o0z0> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7gz_b.0.sB5.gmyCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15419 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi Alik, please let us know more. What kind of experiments did you do with Hutchinson ? Are you a friend of him and visited him regularly ? Did you see yourself the lifting of the objects or not ? Regards, Stefan. > >I spent a year building / wiring / figuring out John's set up circa 1987/8. > >There is NO secret configuration, waveform or any other electrical magic. > As > >far as US gov guys are concerned its PK. John just blew whole bunch of > >building plumbing using a bunch of old radios and no VDGs/TCs etc etc etc > >etc. There had to be effects all over the place because eventually the > >police showed up. > > > >Alik S. > > -- Best regards, Stefan Hartmann. -- Hartmann Multimedia Service, Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498 email: harti@harti.com info@ccard.net http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB ! From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 07:14:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA21434; Tue, 30 May 2000 07:12:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 07:12:33 -0700 Message-ID: <000401bfc9ff$591ed6e0$aaa134d1@a9o0z0> From: "Alik S" To: Subject: Re: [FG]: Hutchinson effect Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 06:21:51 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"2mapF3.0.mE5.GnyCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15420 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com -----Original Message----- From: Sam Garza To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 1:03 PM Subject: Re: [FG]: Hutchinson effect >Alik, What is PK? Just an acronym for psychokinesis - 'mind over matter' Alik S. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 08:08:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA10635; Tue, 30 May 2000 08:05:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 08:05:06 -0700 Message-ID: <000001bfca06$adbca860$a0a134d1@a9o0z0> From: "Alik S" To: "Stefan Hartmann" , Subject: Re: [FG]: Fw: [FG]: musings about the Hutchinson effect apparatus Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 07:12:21 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"dXVKH.0.-b2.XYzCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15421 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com -----Original Message----- From: Stefan Hartmann To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com ; alik@intergate.bc.ca Date: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 2:11 PM Subject: Re: [FG]: Fw: [FG]: musings about the Hutchinson effect apparatus >Hi Alik, >please let us know more. >What kind of experiments did you do with Hutchinson ? > >Are you a friend of him and visited him regularly ? >Did you see yourself the lifting of the objects >or not ? > >Regards, Stefan. In 1987/88 I and my associate at the time first met the fellow who had earlier tried to basically swipe John's tech (Alex Pizzaro, then associate of G.Hataway) and later John. John's gizmos were at risk of being made homeless , so we talked some people at 'a major aerospace co.' to fund their rescue and a series of experiments. While the exact details of the set up at that time technically is proprietary to John, my conclusion in the end was that the effect is not caused by the equipment. Based on everything I know it was also the conclusion of US DoD guys like Jack Houck (McDonnell Douglass, at the time) who goes around teaching people how to do PK stuff while presumably identifying better candidates for whatever R&D they are doing in the field. Regarding experiments. The set up involved a pair of 150kV DC sources , huge VDG (no one ever measured its output accurately) , massive capacitor banks with spark gaps (1.5uF/60kV), several TCs , weak radioctive sources etc . In my opinion there is no point focusing on specific set-up because John's equipment changes based on what nice gizmos he can find. It would not be nice to John if I start publishing all the details of what we were doing without his explicit blessing because technically it is 'his' effect, but we did everything that was suggested on the list. The obvious priority was to isolate the part responsible for the happenings. The effects We had lots and lots of 'disrupted' metal bits showing up all over the place. A few times things moved around that had no reason to move around. A few things were spontaneously relocated (through walls). I personally saw a vise-grip vanish in a brilliant flash of light , its 3 pieces later were found in different places (one inside a box with stuff on top of it). The metal breaks were such that there was simply zero chance they were somehow 'faked'. I did not witness really nice levitation effects, but everything I did see was enough to convince me that all of John's videos are 100% real. I think more amazing than levitation is the ability of things to pass through each other (and sometimes get stuck on the way). The whole episode ended in a fight between John and said ex-associate of mine. John went to Germany and a few weeks later all the weird mechanical 'accidents' began, culminating with one of the transformers falling into this person's lap from 4 feet. Having said all that, I should add that John's free-energy gizmo's seem to be too stable and consistent to be PK-powered. Unfortunately, the nicest one seems dead and gone. Alik S. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 08:13:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA13715; Tue, 30 May 2000 08:10:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 08:10:49 -0700 Message-ID: <001501bfca07$7cde79c0$a0a134d1@a9o0z0> From: "Alik S" To: Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 07:20:08 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"BJm7m.0.3M3.vdzCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15422 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Fw: [FG]: Fw: [FG]: musings about the Hutchinson effect apparatus -----Original Message----- From: Alik S To: Stefan Hartmann ; freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 7:12 AM Subject: Re: [FG]: Fw: [FG]: musings about the Hutchinson effect apparatus > >-----Original Message----- >From: Stefan Hartmann >To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com ; alik@intergate.bc.ca > >Date: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 2:11 PM >Subject: Re: [FG]: Fw: [FG]: musings about the Hutchinson effect apparatus > > >>Hi Alik, >>please let us know more. >>What kind of experiments did you do with Hutchinson ? >> >>Are you a friend of him and visited him regularly ? I live not far from John and we get together every so often to talk about 'weird energy' stuff. >>Did you see yourself the lifting of the objects >>or not ? >> >>Regards, Stefan. > > >In 1987/88 I and my associate at the time first met the fellow who had >earlier tried to basically swipe John's tech (Alex Pizzaro, then associate >of G.Hataway) and later John. John's gizmos were at risk of being made >homeless , so we talked some people at 'a major aerospace co.' to fund their >rescue and a series of experiments. > >While the exact details of the set up at that time technically is >proprietary to John, my conclusion in the end was that the effect is not >caused by the equipment. Based on everything I know it was also the >conclusion of US DoD guys like Jack Houck (McDonnell Douglass, at the time) >who goes around teaching people how to do PK stuff while presumably >identifying better candidates for whatever R&D they are doing in the field. > >Regarding experiments. > >The set up involved a pair of 150kV DC sources , huge VDG (no one ever >measured its output accurately) , massive capacitor banks with spark gaps >(1.5uF/60kV), several TCs , weak radioctive sources etc . In my opinion >there is no point focusing on specific set-up because John's equipment >changes based on what nice gizmos he can find. It would not be nice to John >if I start publishing all the details of what we were doing without his >explicit blessing because technically it is 'his' effect, but we did >everything that was suggested on the list. The obvious priority was to >isolate the part responsible for the happenings. > >The effects > >We had lots and lots of 'disrupted' metal bits showing up all over the >place. A few times things moved around that had no reason to move around. A >few things were spontaneously relocated (through walls). >I personally saw a vise-grip vanish in a brilliant flash of light , its 3 >pieces later were found in different places (one inside a box with stuff on >top of it). The metal breaks were such that there was simply zero chance >they were somehow 'faked'. I did not witness really nice levitation effects, >but everything I did see was enough to convince me that all of John's videos >are 100% real. I think more amazing than levitation is the ability of things >to pass through each other (and sometimes get stuck on the way). > >The whole episode ended in a fight between John and said ex-associate of >mine. John went to Germany and a few weeks later all the weird mechanical >'accidents' began, culminating with one of the transformers falling into >this person's lap from 4 feet. > >Having said all that, I should add that John's free-energy gizmo's seem to >be too stable and consistent to be PK-powered. Unfortunately, the nicest one >seems dead and gone. > >Alik S. > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 08:28:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA21835; Tue, 30 May 2000 08:26:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 08:26:30 -0700 Message-ID: <004b01bfca4b$a2844a80$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> From: "Sam Garza" To: References: <3931AD02.1FB74B35@csrlink.net> Subject: Re: [FG]: Electrolysis Cells: Batteries That Don't Work Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 11:27:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Resent-Message-ID: <"cMzIt2.0.-K5.bszCv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15423 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Have you ran a few cells with the 30,000 volts? Do they produce H2 and O? If this works then you could setup up to 15,000 cells in series at 2 volts a piece. Surely a car could run off the H2 and O gasses produced from that many cells. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Johnston To: Michael S. Johnston Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2000 7:34 PM Subject: [FG]: Electrolysis Cells: Batteries That Don't Work > Hi All, > Let's consider this for a moment. Electrolysis cells are very much > like batteries. Especially lead acid automotive batteries. Most of them > have six cells wired in line to store electricity. If you overcharge a > battery they start to produce hydrogen and oxygen gasses. All of the > work that the electrolyte had to do in relation to storing up > electricity in the form of chemical energy is done. Now the electricity > is PASSING freely through the cells and as a by product of it's passage > water is broken down into it's elements. > Batteries have something called "Internal Resistance" which is > figured based on the resistance's of the electrodes and the electrolyte. > It usually works out to around 1.8 ohms per cell. Just about right to > give the 2 volt drop across electrolysis cells. Is this electricity > being "transformed" into chemical energy in the H2? NO-NO-NO! It is > passing through with no work to do other than overcoming the internal > resistance of the cell (this energy being transformed into heat > energy)and as a by product of it's passing is releasing H2. That is a > whole different ball game. > I have been wrestling with this concept for a while and have tried > to express it as best I could but I think I have it now. Take a > hypothetical system like this: Let's take a car battery and overcharge > it. We have to make sure that we can replace the water as we separate it > because otherwise the battery will be damaged either by exposing the > plates to air or by the concentration of the electrolyte becoming too > strong. Next we will use a standard automotive ignition coil to supply > it with electricity. That way it will be in a "loop" with the step up > transformer and give us 30,000 volts or better to work with. > Or maybe we'll use a capacitor to achieve the same effect. We can > establish a potential difference of 30,000 volts between our electrodes > and only draw as much as we need into our circuit through the coil. That > will work right? WRONG! The potential difference of 30,000 volts DOES > exist in the cell and that much electricity IS available to it BUT since > the cell is only drawing 2 volts of power to maintain the circuit that > is all the H2 that will be released per cell no matter how many of them > you have hooked up in the loop! Sure, the more cells you have the more > H2 you get but it will only be the equivalent of that 2v per cell in > each one...UNLESS.... Unless you find a way to make that 30,000 volts > FLOW THROUGH the cells on a continuous basis. It will THEN release an > amount of H2 that is proportional to the 30,000 volts, not the 2 volts. > This doesn't mean that it is USING the 30,000 volts. It's not. It is > living up to Faraday' law which says that as much H2 will be evolved as > the quantity of electricity that PASSES. Once it passes through all of > your cells you still have all of the electricity that you started with > except for the 2v lost in each cell due to the internal resistance of > the cell. You still get your H2 evolved and still have most of your > electricity left over afterward! That is the point I have been trying to > get out. Yes you have to use that electricity somewhere but on a car you > could put your separator between the coil and the distributor possibly > and that way, as long as the car is running you are producing the fuel. > That is the hurdle to overcome. Sure you can find electrolytes which > are better catalysts or catalysts which work without as much energy > being input but that just improves the efficiency within each cell > (which is good). But it still doesn't clue you in to the bigger fact > which is Just keep the electricity MOVING through your cell and you > could probably generate enough H2 to run a car off of car batteries! > They only cost about 70$ a piece so the cost isn't very prohibitive > either. > It is just another illustration of the principle that I showed you > before with the H2 being burned and then recovering some (or all) of > your fuel from the exhaust by catalyzing it with the waste heat it > contained. It isn't real over unity any more than refining gasoline out > of crude oil by the catalytic cracking of crude is. Actually the > hydrogen/carbon bond is STRONGER than the hydrogen/oxygen bond. > MJ > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 10:42:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA19952; Tue, 30 May 2000 10:35:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 10:35:26 -0700 From: dtmiller@midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: Is Water An Electrolyte? Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 17:35:38 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Reply-To: dtmiller@midiowa.net Message-ID: <3934fa6a.35907872@mail.midiowa.net> References: <393033A8.3DEFE69D@csrlink.net> <004f01bfca34$2e3ca620$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> In-Reply-To: <004f01bfca34$2e3ca620$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id KAA19901 Resent-Message-ID: <"Cqddv2.0.at4.Ul_Cv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15424 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi Sam, On Tue, 30 May 2000 08:40:04 -0400, "Sam Garza" wrote: >I have done a lot of testing with water using 316L stainless plates and I >can tell you pure steam distilled water does not conduct electricity until >you add an electrolyte. I don't want to be a naysayer, but you're wrong. I do it every day. I make my own colloidal silver using nothing but 2 silver electrodes (.999 fine silver) and steam distilled water in a Pyrex glass container. The current flow is very weak at first (35 volts across the electrodes), but increases as some of the silver erodes off the electrodes into the water. But current does flow. > What is patina? Patina means covering (sort of). It's the oxide of the electrode metal (silver oxide in the above), or the sulfide if you've added sulfuric acid as an electrolyte enhancer (and lead sulfide if lead is the electrode, as used in lead-acid batteries). -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moines (CDP, KB0ZDF) From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 10:43:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA20275; Tue, 30 May 2000 10:36:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 10:36:13 -0700 From: dtmiller@midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: Is Water An Electrolyte? Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 17:36:33 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Reply-To: dtmiller@midiowa.net Message-ID: <3935fbfc.36310081@mail.midiowa.net> References: <393033A8.3DEFE69D@csrlink.net> <004f01bfca34$2e3ca620$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> In-Reply-To: <004f01bfca34$2e3ca620$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id KAA20233 Resent-Message-ID: <"Qclvu1.0.fy4.Dm_Cv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15425 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Tue, 30 May 2000 08:40:04 -0400, "Sam Garza" wrote: >What is patina? Oops. Shouldn't type without thinking. :) That's lead sulfate, not lead sulfide. -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moines (CDP, KB0ZDF) From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 11:24:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA09464; Tue, 30 May 2000 11:21:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 11:21:54 -0700 Message-ID: <393405E4.FEED37B4@harti.com> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 20:18:12 +0200 From: Stefan Hartmann Organization: Hartmann Multimedia Service X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [de]C-CCK-MCD QXW03200 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alik S , freenrg-l@eskimo.com, Newman-L Mailing List , "jlnlabs@egroups.com" , "ou-builders@egroups.com" Subject: Re: [FG]: Fw: [FG]: musings about the Hutchinson effect apparatus References: <000001bfca06$adbca860$a0a134d1@a9o0z0> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4ITwA.0.nJ2.1R0Dv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15426 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Alik S schrieb: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Stefan Hartmann > To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com ; alik@intergate.bc.ca > > Date: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 2:11 PM > Subject: Re: [FG]: Fw: [FG]: musings about the Hutchinson effect apparatus > > >Hi Alik, > >please let us know more. > >What kind of experiments did you do with Hutchinson ? > > > >Are you a friend of him and visited him regularly ? > >Did you see yourself the lifting of the objects > >or not ? > > > >Regards, Stefan. > > In 1987/88 I and my associate at the time first met the fellow who had > earlier tried to basically swipe John's tech (Alex Pizzaro, then associate > of G.Hataway) and later John. John's gizmos were at risk of being made > homeless , so we talked some people at 'a major aerospace co.' to fund their > rescue and a series of experiments. > > While the exact details of the set up at that time technically is > proprietary to John, my conclusion in the end was that the effect is not > caused by the equipment. Based on everything I know it was also the > conclusion of US DoD guys like Jack Houck (McDonnell Douglass, at the time) > who goes around teaching people how to do PK stuff while presumably > identifying better candidates for whatever R&D they are doing in the field. > > Regarding experiments. > > The set up involved a pair of 150kV DC sources , huge VDG (no one ever > measured its output accurately) , massive capacitor banks with spark gaps > (1.5uF/60kV), several TCs , weak radioctive sources etc . In my opinion > there is no point focusing on specific set-up because John's equipment > changes based on what nice gizmos he can find. It would not be nice to John > if I start publishing all the details of what we were doing without his > explicit blessing because technically it is 'his' effect, but we did > everything that was suggested on the list. The obvious priority was to > isolate the part responsible for the happenings. > > The effects > > We had lots and lots of 'disrupted' metal bits showing up all over the > place. A few times things moved around that had no reason to move around. A > few things were spontaneously relocated (through walls). That is really interesting ! In the videos I have you can only see something lift up or break up or shake or glowing. > I personally saw a vise-grip vanish in a brilliant flash of light , its 3 > pieces later were found in different places (one inside a box with stuff on > top of it). Amazing ! I almost could not believe this, if I had not seen this myself, but I also never witnessed myself yet PK effects... Did you see something simular already with other "PK tests persons" ? How did it vanish ? Just in a flash and was there any noise with it and was there any beam directed at this vise-grip ? How long did you search to find it in the box later ?? Why does not the equipment go bad or to failure, that is in the near vincentity ? If this is really true, maybe the atoms go to a different dimension mabye the sixth or seventh dimension and then have some time jump and reappear in our 3 dimensional world again after a few seconds...? >The metal breaks were such that there was simply zero chance > they were somehow 'faked'. Yes, a friend of mine analyzed Hutchinson´s samples and he came to the same conclusion. He worked at a Government funded material research lab. >I did not witness really nice levitation effects, > but everything I did see was enough to convince me that all of John's videos > are 100% real. I think more amazing than levitation is the ability of things > to pass through each other (and sometimes get stuck on the way). Did you see this also happen ?? I saw some levitation videos done earlier with 8 mm camera, but these looked pretty much unreal, as if somebody pulled the objects with a fishing line in front of the camera up and down... maybe this wasjust badly filmed...? What do you think ? hmm.but there were also some pretty interesting thinks seen as a spoon which shaked heavily and also bended up and down immensely. I hope it was not just an aluminium foil... > > The whole episode ended in a fight between John and said ex-associate of > mine. John went to Germany and a few weeks later all the weird mechanical > 'accidents' began, culminating with one of the transformers falling into > this person's lap from 4 feet. > > Having said all that, I should add that John's free-energy gizmo's seem to > be too stable and consistent to be PK-powered. Unfortunately, the nicest one > seems dead and gone. I have seen on a newer tape some kind of solid state crystal metal converter from 2 different metals which could propell a small toy motor. Was it this kind of "metall-battery" you mean with free-energy gizmo ? > > Alik S. -- Best regards, Stefan Hartmann. -- Hartmann Multimedia Service, Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498 email: harti@harti.com info@ccard.net http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB ! From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 11:34:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA29640; Tue, 30 May 2000 11:32:05 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 11:32:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 14:29:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Jim Uban Message-Id: <200005301829.OAA06314@world.std.com> To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: Hutchinson effect Resent-Message-ID: <"ujyJO.0.1F7.Za0Dv"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15427 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com > Knuke wrote: >I think you are correct, but it looks as if it is an artificially amplified > or assisted version of PK. I would have to argue from the point of view of the simplest hypothesis more likely being correct that the Hutchison effect is as-yet unknown EM interactions with matter, rather than a PK effect. The only reason to argue PK, in my opinion, would be that -some- elements of the Hutchison set of effects resemble PK. I.e., the movement of objects. However, there are precious few reports of controlled PK activity resulting from the intention of the person supposedly generating PK activity. And in those cases, the effect is usually quite small. The only large PK effects (which I'm aware of) are as reported in poltergeist activities. These results are generally attributed to the presence of adolescent children, and are spontaneous in nature, not controlled. Many other of the Hutchison effects have no counterpart in PK reports. Further, to hypothesize PK means we have first PK, a relative unknown and certainly not understood, being some sort of interaction of mind with matter, and then the EM-assisted amplification thereof, being an interaction of EM with mind and with matter, quite a bit further unknown, in fact completely so. Once operative, the Hutchison effect can go on for many minutes, with observers, and with John H him- self no doubt moving around the equipment for observation. Why would PK continue under such conditions, and without direct intention? It seems much more likely that John H has learned to be sensitive to the tuning of his apparatus, leading to the effects. Don't forget that he has spent years playing around with this stuff, and getting a feel for it. Given time and effort, a person can acquire quite an intuitive feel for any sort of subtle skill, in this case the tuning of his appartus. Not so unlike those cold fusion researchers who have learned the hard- won skills of getting their equipment to generate excess heat, but which is devilishly hard for others to reproduce, no doubt due to the intuitive skill level required. Jim From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 11:56:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA26790; Tue, 30 May 2000 11:54:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 11:54:10 -0700 Message-ID: <39340E5F.92ED9D18@info2000.net> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 12:54:23 -0600 From: Ted Reply-To: tsleber@info2000.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: Hutchinson effect (Real Video format) References: <20000529015423421.AAA307@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"TBlFs.0.QY6.Hv0Dv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15428 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Michael, It is SEX MUSEUM at www.bannervpweb1000.com/fsm Ted From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 12:03:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA29640; Tue, 30 May 2000 12:00:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 12:00:34 -0700 Message-ID: <00d901bfca69$87ce8a20$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> From: "Sam Garza" To: References: <000001bfc992$4536f120$82b422cf@a9o0z0> Subject: Re: [FG]: HV power supply Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 15:01:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Resent-Message-ID: <"3BWGC3.0.1F7.H_0Dv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15429 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Alik, Do you have any ideas for where to find a variable HV power supply like between 1KV - maybe 2KV or more with more than 10uA current capability that is cheap? ----- Original Message ----- From: Alik S To: Sent: Monday, May 29, 2000 1:17 PM Subject: [FG]: Fw: [FG]: musings about the Hutchinson effect apparatus From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 12:18:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA04174; Tue, 30 May 2000 12:16:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 12:16:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 12:15:55 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: eks1 cc: Rick Monteverde , "freenrg-L@eskimo.com" Subject: Re: [FG]: musings about the Hutchinson effect apparatus In-Reply-To: <3932EB60.B445779@earthlink.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ChdyE2.0.711.oD1Dv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15430 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Mon, 29 May 2000, eks1 wrote: > Yeah, that thought does enter the picture, unfortunately. I am also a > bit concerned > at the sketchy way that the experimental apparatus is described. There > hasnt been > even ONE description of the layout of his gear, physical or otherwise! No > pics! The article on Hutchison in an early issue of Electric Spacecraft Journal had some pictures and diagrams, but I don't recall whether there was a floor plan. > It all seems so vague...why hasnt someone given us a picture of his > equipment?? > Some inventory of the make and model of each piece? A list of the > components > and their arrangement would be nice. If he WANTED others to attempt replications, he would have done this, no? ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 12:21:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA06127; Tue, 30 May 2000 12:18:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 12:18:58 -0700 Message-ID: <393414B1.629E8E59@netzero.net> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 12:21:21 -0700 From: blue_eyes X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 3 FREENRG Subject: Re: [FG]: Is Water An Electrolyte? References: <393033A8.3DEFE69D@csrlink.net> <004f01bfca34$2e3ca620$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> <3934fa6a.35907872@mail.midiowa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Wr-sD.0.eV1.YG1Dv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15431 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com "Dean T. Miller" wrote: >snip> > I make my own colloidal silver using nothing but 2 silver electrodes > (.999 fine silver) and steam distilled water in a Pyrex glass > container. The current flow is very weak at first (35 volts across > the electrodes), but increases as some of the silver erodes off the > electrodes into the water. But current does flow. >snip> -------------- Hi Folks! Here is part 1 of a many part post to a colloidal silver list I am on. The subject is "The Electrolysis of Water and Silver, part 1". Even though the distilled water we use to make our colloidal silver is not even close to "pure", I think the part that I emphasize by separating with asterisks and spaces applies to "pure" water as well. ---------- "The Electrolysis of Water and Silver, part 1"........... Electrolysis may be defined as the chemical reactions resulting from the passage of a direct electric current through an electrolyte. In electrolysis we are interested in the mechanism by which the ions of the electrolyte are discharged (combined) at the electrodes. At the cathode some positive ion is discharged and at the anode some negative ion is discharged (combined). The electrodes are connected to a source of direct current which acts as an "electron pump" drawing a stream of electrons into its positive pole (terminal) and forcing the electrons out of its negative pole (terminal). This is the action of a battery or direct current generator. The cathode of the electrolysis cell (CS generator) is connected to the negative pole (terminal) of the current source and the anode of the cell to the positive pole (terminal). Electrons are, therefore, being pumped into the cathode and out of the anode of the electrolysis cell. However the electrons do not go anywhere, as they can not flow in the electrolyte. the excess electrons on the cathode and deficiency of electrons on the anode are called an electric potential and will cause the movement of ions in the electrolyte. Under such circumstances, the cathode becomes negatively charged and the anode becomes positively charged. Under the influence of these charged electrodes, the positive ions in the solution will migrate (move slowly) to the cathode and the negative ions will migrate to the anode. At each electrode a discharge (combining) of ions takes place, the positive ions at the cathode and the negative ions at the anode, but since what happens at the anode is more or less independent of what occurs at the cathode, we will consider each process separately. *********************** Discharge of Cations: (cathode ions): It must always be kept in mind in considering the mechanism of electrolysis that in addition to the ions of the electrolyte there are always present in all aqueous solutions the ions of water, H3O+ and OH-. These ions migrate in the electric field just as do the ions of the electrolyte, the hydronium ions (H3O+) moving to the cathode and the hydroxyl ions (OH-) moving to the anode. At the cathode, two ions in general present themselves to be discharged (combined). The two ions in general are the positive ion of the electrolyte and the positive ion of the water. *********************** Which of the two is discharged depends upon their relative positions in the electromotive series of metals. The ion of a metal below hydrogen is easier to discharge (more accurately, can be discharged at a lower voltage) than the hydronium ion. Hence if the positive ion of the electrolyte is one of copper, mercury, silver or gold, it will be discharged in preference to the hydronium ion. On the other hand, the ion of a more active metal is more difficult to discharge than the hydronium ion so the latter will be discharged. In general, any metal will displace a metal below it in the electromotive series, the hydrogen atom will displace a silver atom from the electrode. The actual mechanism of discharge of a positive ion involves the acquisition from the cathode of a number of the cathodes excess electrons, equal to the positive charge on the ion, and hence the formation of a neutral atom of the free metal. In general, Ag+ plus 1e- will give Ag neutral. The neutral metal atoms are insoluble in water and usually form a metallic plating on the cathode. This plating (if silver) will appear black. If the hydronium ion is discharged , the first step is the same. H3O+ plus 1e- gives H neut plus H2O. However, since neutral atoms of hydrogen show a great tendency to combine in pairs to form the stable diatomic molecule of hydrogen gas, this will next occur-- 2H neut gives H2 , and the gas will come out of solution in small bubbles on the surface of the cathode. When hydronium ions are discharges in this way, the equilibrium between undissociated water molecules and the hydronium and hydroxyl ions is disturbed in such a way that more water molecules will dissociate as hydronium ions are discharged. 2H2O gives H3O+ plus OH- This results in an increase in the hydroxyl-ion concentration, and the solution about the cathode becomes more basic. In other than acid solutions, the concentration of the hydronium ion is so low that it is highly probable that the appearance of hydrogen at the cathode is the result of the direct reduction of water molecules by electrons at the cathode. 2HOH plus 2e- gives H2 plus 2OH- to be continued _____________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Click here for FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 12:31:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA11885; Tue, 30 May 2000 12:29:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 12:29:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 12:29:28 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <00d901bfca69$87ce8a20$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"_fL-V2.0.Ov2.UQ1Dv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15432 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: 2nd gravity-cap report Two more reports of success with the gravity capacitor. One is attached, and he mentioned measuring 3lbs force with a spring scale. Another by phone: While a student at a major university, this guy witnessed another student's "gravity" project which consisted of stacked capacitor plates, with + and - plate terminals all on the same side, driven by pulsed voltage, with the mystery-force acting SIDEWAYS along the capacitor rather than axially through the stack. In a pendulum test the capacitor pushed itself up to a 45deg angle, indicating that the device could almost lift its own weight. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 13:09:16 -0700 From: "C" To: billb@eskimo.com Subject: funny thing I would not believed it, but this thing does have thrust. I have built it not to size but of to a smaller scale. The second attempt was built to scale. The third try was to build it larger but not to scale. Odd thing is, it still produces thrust that seems to be related to static potential. I have used wax paper with tin foil (hard to find), wax paper with house hold foil (easy to find) and lastly, paper dipped into a dielectric type bath to improve dielectric properties with aluminum foil. This last one did not work as well. Another try used mylar film with aluminum and copper foils. This worked the best although I did use just aluminum only with mylar film and found that copper produced another affect but now working on that issue. [snip] From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 13:07:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA06310; Tue, 30 May 2000 12:59:10 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 12:59:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <39341D72.D002BA22@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 12:58:43 -0700 From: eks1 Reply-To: eks1@earthlink.net Organization: Systems Research Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,en-GB,en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "freenrg-L@eskimo.com" Subject: Re: [FG]: musings about the Hutchinson effect apparatus References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"wtgf6.0.UY1.Cs1Dv"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15433 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com William Beaty wrote: > > If he WANTED others to attempt replications, he would have done this, no? I'm not so sure he's even aware that replication might be a "good" thing. To wit, I sent him a request for the information and invited him to join us here! After a bit of thinking, and a bit more musing, it occurs to me that the effects JH has been getting are remarkably similar in their nature to the Electronic-Voice phenomenon. Essentially, the EVP setup provides an open-circuit multi-oscillator and amplifier - which seems capable of receiving some sort of signals which at least SOUND LIKE human speech. (Oh I know, you're saying: "Poor bunkie! His mind has gone around the bend!") ;) I've witnessed EVP with the apparatus INSIDE an enclosed solid-copper foil Faraday screen that was grounded! It couldn't have been radio signals! I've also noticed that the EVP is accompanied by a drop in temperature, and an increase in the static potiential - both classic hallmarks of Psi stuff. In the case of Hutchinson's 'system' it seems we have: 1) A stressing of local space from the EM/ES equipment's fields. 2) sparks, being generated we are told by eye-witness account, from capacitor discharges. 3) An "Operator", tuning the mechanism...by intuition alone. OK, so let's say that the Universe as we know it is really just one facet of a very complex manifold of multi-versal domains. Super-String theory tells us this is quite likely. That means that the base geometry of the Universe is really just a series of dimensional scalars and vectors (ok and perhaps some tensors too for those of you who believe in Big Charm and Super-super String!) Now if we decide that one or more of the base metrics can be shaken, warped, distorted or modified in some fashion by things EM/ES.....AND we take into account the notion that in SPARKS we see (perhaps) energy-gains..as in the Newman Motor, Frolov's Sparker-Oscillator, Chernetsky's Plasma Tube, The Correa Plasma system, etc Now add the notions of Chaos Physics to this...couldn't it be possible that the sparkgaps are acting as a 'strange-attractor' for PK activity?? Here the local space geometry is stressed, and the sparks are punching tiny 'holes' in the normal flow of time (or some other sub-matter metric) the situation resembles a transistor switching circuit just before forward conductance occurs! Charge up an area of space with an electrostatic energy, it might even act like a classic "force field" (ref: Weird Science/KeelyNet report of same in a plastics operation where people encountered such) or as a containment vessel, if you prefer. Now add some fierce EM radiation inside that vessel, now the local space is losing it's grip, the grid points arent fixed anymore.. The sparkgaps zap away..offering pinhole access to the Dirac Sea, or background ZPE..with just a little push from someone with PK ability...you have a momentary union between this Universe and something else, perhaps it's mirror image. The effects Hutchinson has documented would be consistant with such an occurance. One of the stainless steel alloy samples appears to be recrystalized, this isnt even possible using the current available in a small factory - such crystals must be formed in the absence of normal gravity! Think about it... -- --- "When it comes to paradigms, you must shift for yourself!" - Anon |-----------------------| | Systems Research Ltd. |------->"Any real-world system is more.. |-----------------------| ..than the mere sum of it's parts!" Erik K. Sorgatz (KB6LUY) http://home.earthlink.net/~eks1 From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 13:26:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA02952; Tue, 30 May 2000 13:23:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 13:23:02 -0700 Message-ID: <002601bfca74$b4ba7980$92d666ce@default> From: "Chris O'Barr" To: Subject: Re: [FG]: HV power supply Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 16:21:57 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"K2YQg3.0.yj.bC2Dv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15434 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com eBay is a good source for all sorts of things. -----Original Message----- From: Sam Garza To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 3:05 PM Subject: Re: [FG]: HV power supply >Alik, >Do you have any ideas for where to find a variable HV power supply like >between 1KV - maybe 2KV or more with more than 10uA current capability that >is cheap? >----- Original Message ----- >From: Alik S >To: >Sent: Monday, May 29, 2000 1:17 PM >Subject: [FG]: Fw: [FG]: musings about the Hutchinson effect apparatus > > > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 13:59:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA11961; Tue, 30 May 2000 13:57:57 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 13:57:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <00ed01bfca79$ea1ebdc0$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> From: "Sam Garza" To: References: Subject: Re: [FG]: 2nd gravity-cap report Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 16:59:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Resent-Message-ID: <"H_DN91.0.ow2.Ij2Dv"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15435 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com How many volts were used? ----- Original Message ----- From: William Beaty To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 3:29 PM Subject: [FG]: 2nd gravity-cap report > > Two more reports of success with the gravity capacitor. One is attached, > and he mentioned measuring 3lbs force with a spring scale. > > Another by phone: > > While a student at a major university, this guy witnessed another > student's "gravity" project which consisted of stacked capacitor plates, > with + and - plate terminals all on the same side, driven by pulsed > voltage, with the mystery-force acting SIDEWAYS along the capacitor > rather than axially through the stack. In a pendulum test the capacitor > pushed itself up to a 45deg angle, indicating that the device could > almost lift its own weight. > > > ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science > Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L > > > Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 13:09:16 -0700 > From: "C" > To: billb@eskimo.com > Subject: funny thing > > I would not believed it, but this thing does have thrust. I have built it > not to size but of to a smaller scale. The second attempt was built to > scale. The third try was to build it larger but not to scale. Odd thing > is, it still produces thrust that seems to be related to static potential. > I have used wax paper with tin foil (hard to find), wax paper with house > hold foil (easy to find) and lastly, paper dipped into a dielectric type > bath to improve dielectric properties with aluminum foil. This last one > did not work as well. Another try used mylar film with aluminum and copper > foils. This worked the best although I did use just aluminum only with > mylar film and found that copper produced another affect but now working > on that issue. [snip] > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 14:03:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA16070; Tue, 30 May 2000 14:00:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 14:00:01 -0700 From: "David Rosignoli" Sender: drdaveor@enter.net Reply-to: drdaveor@enter.net To: William Beaty , freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-CC-Sender: drdaveor@enter.net Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 16:59:50 +400 Subject: Re: [FG]: 2nd gravity-cap report X-Mailer: DMailWeb Web to Mail Gateway 2.1t, http://netwinsite.com/top_mail.htm Message-id: <39342bc6.3170.0@enter.net> X-User-Info: 192.91.146.34 Resent-Message-ID: <"eF-5N1.0.xw3.Gl2Dv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15436 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com What are the sources of power used? Van de Graaf? A pair of "D" cells? Some lemons? What about any other details on the setup? What bothers me is hearing reports from anonymous sources with limited information. If someone went through all the trouble of building this device (and believe me, it is very time consuming to do so), then why not provide a lot more information? I would have thought after putting one of these devices together and actually having it work successfully, one would be anxious to do so. >Two more reports of success with the gravity capacitor. One is attached, >and he mentioned measuring 3lbs force with a spring scale. > >Another by phone: > > While a student at a major university, this guy witnessed another > student's "gravity" project which consisted of stacked capacitor plates, > with + and - plate terminals all on the same side, driven by pulsed From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 14:52:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA06899; Tue, 30 May 2000 14:50:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 14:50:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 14:50:20 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: 2nd gravity-cap report In-Reply-To: <39342bc6.3170.0@enter.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"cfvrk3.0.gh1.XU3Dv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15437 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Tue, 30 May 2000, David Rosignoli wrote: > What are the sources of power used? Van de Graaf? A pair of "D" cells? Some > lemons? What about any other details on the setup? I asked this guy several times if he wanted to communicate with others, or if he'd let me forward his messages to the list. No reply, yet he answered questions on other topics. I decided to forward the bare minimum without permission: his first message, with return addr stripped. He mentioned a 75KV supply, but it didn't blow through the waxpaper, therefore it certainly wasn't running at 75KV. The corona leakage would drag down the voltage if the supply impedance was large. > What bothers me is hearing reports from anonymous sources with limited information. > If someone went through all the trouble of building this device (and believe > me, it is very time consuming to do so), then why not provide a lot more information? > I would have thought after putting one of these devices together and actually > having it work successfully, one would be anxious to do so. But only weird people would attempt such a thing! :) Some are afraid to attract attention, others want no competitors yet can't stand to remain entirely silent. A hoaxer obviously would have no details to reveal. People act like alchemists keeping big important secrets, rather than like scientists who WANT others to replicate. There's a "guru effect", where everyone has to come to the Antigravity Guru to receive their snippets of secret knowledge. A scientific attitude requires humility, since after a secret is published, the Guru no longer can attract attention to himself by being its "gatekeeper." I'm in favor of deflating the gurus and publicizing the secrets. However, I'm not going to take it upon myself to pass private conversations on to the list unless I get permission. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 15:24:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA19784; Tue, 30 May 2000 15:21:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 15:21:32 -0700 Message-ID: <39342F47.9BB08078@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 14:14:47 -0700 From: eks1 Reply-To: eks1@earthlink.net Organization: Systems Research Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,en-GB,en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: 2nd gravity-cap report References: <39342bc6.3170.0@enter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"fvVyU.0.pq4.hx3Dv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15438 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com David Rosignoli wrote: > What bothers me is hearing reports from anonymous sources with limited information. > If someone went through all the trouble of building this device (and believe > me, it is very time consuming to do so), then why not provide a lot more information? > I would have thought after putting one of these devices together and actually > having it work successfully, one would be anxious to do so. Must be a bad case of "Inventors Disease" or something similar. I've seen dozens of claims for these things over the years, yet I've never run across even ONE person who could claim to have duplicated Carr's Saucer. I have a copy of the patent, it makes little sense in terms of engineering a demonstration prototype such as the one that hundreds, if not thousands saw fly in the late 1950's! --- "When it comes to paradigms, you must shift for yourself!" - Anon |-----------------------| | Systems Research Ltd. |------->"Any real-world system is more.. |-----------------------| ..than the mere sum of it's parts!" Erik K. Sorgatz (KB6LUY) http://home.earthlink.net/~eks1 From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 15:27:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA22026; Tue, 30 May 2000 15:25:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 15:25:09 -0700 Message-ID: <39327550.FAB4625A@prairienet.org> Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 08:49:04 -0500 From: Zack Widup X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: Is Water An Electrolyte? References: <20000529045953.10117.qmail@web4402.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"fEbyl.0.xN5.5_3Dv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15439 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com I thought you were talking about ice-nine! :) Zack harvey norris wrote: > > > > > No, in fact it would be the opposite of a vacuum > > type condition. What I am > > referring to are known as clathrates, and I had a > > ton of links bookmarked on > > them that got vaporized a few weeks ago. Basically, > > clathrates are formed > > under high pressure, low temperature conditions. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 16:16:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA05731; Tue, 30 May 2000 16:05:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 16:05:28 -0700 Message-ID: <3934493A.C5BCF84C@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 16:05:30 -0700 From: eks1 Reply-To: eks1@earthlink.net Organization: Systems Research Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,en-GB,en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: Fw: [FG]: musings about the Hutchinson effect apparatus References: <000001bfca06$adbca860$a0a134d1@a9o0z0> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"X6YzN1.0.SP1.ua4Dv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15440 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Alik S wrote: > The set up involved a pair of 150kV DC sources , huge VDG (no one ever > measured its output accurately) How "big"? (X' tall? powered by a N hp motor? L" wide belt? Top donut size?) I'm also curious if he was 'seeding' the lower brush with a medium to high voltage spray-arc...this technique can turn the nominal 18" tall VDG into a near lethal, hard- electron monster! > , massive capacitor banks with spark gaps > (1.5uF/60kV), several TCs , weak radioctive sources etc . In my opinion > there is no point focusing on specific set-up because John's equipment > changes based on what nice gizmos he can find. Really? that's not very good news...:( > It would not be nice to John > if I start publishing all the details of what we were doing without his > explicit blessing because technically it is 'his' effect, I wrote him an email asking about this. No reply as yet. > but we did > everything that was suggested on the list. The obvious priority was to > isolate the part responsible for the happenings. > Yep, crank it up until it works, then start removing the various props until it quits! > Having said all that, I should add that John's free-energy gizmo's seem to > be too stable and consistent to be PK-powered. Unfortunately, the nicest one > seems dead and gone. > Care to tell us a bit more about this?? -- --- "When it comes to paradigms, you must shift for yourself!" - Anon |-----------------------| | Systems Research Ltd. |------->"Any real-world system is more.. |-----------------------| ..than the mere sum of it's parts!" Erik K. Sorgatz (KB6LUY) http://home.earthlink.net/~eks1 From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 17:41:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA08091; Tue, 30 May 2000 17:40:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 17:40:40 -0700 Reply-To: "Sparky" From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Freenrg-L" Subject: RE: [FG]: Fw: [FG]: musings about the Hutchinson effect apparatus Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 20:39:22 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3934493A.C5BCF84C@earthlink.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"xAW2u.0.K-1.8-5Dv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15441 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com >From the ESJ article on Hutchison, he had two VDG's. One was 3.5', the other 9' with additional 30kV sprayer, as you surmised. He comments that by placing them next to each other large ion winds would be felt emanating from the smaller unit. Some of the items defy description, such as the "interferometer" shown in figure 17. Weird, huh? I mentioned PK in a previous post with the tongue tentatively in the cheek position, I just meant that it wasn't at all clear what was happening. Due to the bizarre nature of some of the samples there was a lot of interest in this man, if anyone understands what is happening they have yet to come forward. I realize others are serious about the PK. I like to avoid baroque interpretations... BTW, is their anyone on the list connected with Zenergy? K. >How "big"? (X' tall? powered by a N hp motor? L" wide belt? Top donut size?) >I'm also curious if he was 'seeding' the lower brush with a medium to high >voltage >spray-arc...this technique can turn the nominal 18" tall VDG into a near lethal, >hard- >electron monster! From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 18:23:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA25100; Tue, 30 May 2000 18:20:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 18:20:29 -0700 Sender: crusoe@eskimo.com Message-ID: <3934166A.3848476E@worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 14:28:42 -0500 From: Daniel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14-15mdk i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: Is Water An Electrolyte? References: <393033A8.3DEFE69D@csrlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"aMOX.0.186.SZ6Dv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15442 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Intresting note, water purity is measured by it's resistance. Very pure water can get into the mega-ohm range. Daniel joyce From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 19:08:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA09299; Tue, 30 May 2000 19:06:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 19:06:25 -0700 From: tv@juno.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Cc: alik@intergate.bc.ca Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 19:06:57 -0700 Message-ID: <20000530.190658.-328995.0.tv@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 3.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-4,6-12 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 Resent-Message-ID: <"iNNCk2.0.7H2.WE7Dv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15443 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Re musings about the Hutchinson effect apparatus Hi Alik, It sounds like you have much experience with the Hutchison effect. Thank you for sharing your experiences. Have you ever seen an anomalous effect occur without John H. present and with someone else at the controls ? Have there ever been effects without the charged/ionized air present ? Tim Vaughan From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 20:57:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA19618; Tue, 30 May 2000 20:56:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 20:55:56 -0700 From: tv@juno.com To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 20:53:35 -0700 Message-ID: <20000530.205340.-328995.2.tv@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 3.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-26,28-32,34,36-39,41-42,44-46 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 Resent-Message-ID: <"A_2t73.0.Bo4.Cr8Dv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15444 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Book about Testatika ? Below is mentioned the volume 5 THE THORNY WAY OF TRUTH by the late Stefan Marinov. Does anyone have this book ? Were can it be obtained ? Is it of much value ? Tim > > 10 October 1992 > > > Stefan Marinov > East-West Publishers > Morellenfeldgasse 16 > A-8010 Graz, Austria > > Telefon 0316/377093 > Telefax 0316/835015 > > [... lots of stuff deleted] > > Paul Baumann (photograph on p. 8), a simple Swiss peasant, who today is > the spiritual head of the Christian Community METHERNITHA in the village > Linden, near Bern, was sentenced for 7 years by a false accusation. In > the prison, in the year 1978, he constructed the first functioning > perpetuum mobile on our planet, the machine TESTATIKA (photograph on p. > 9). Of this machine dozens of prototypes are built. I give in DEUTSCHE > PHYSIK, No. 4, the picture of the machine with diameter of the disk 2 m, > > which will continuously deliver 30 kW electrical power (the machine on > p. 9 has only one disk with diameter 20 cm and delivers some 200 W). > > I am member of the community. In March 1989 I tested two machines > TESTATIKA. It is besides any doubt that TESTATIKA is a perpetuum mobile, > which moreover delivers a great quantity (in comparison with its size > and weight) of free energy. I dedicated to this machine the fifth volume > of my series THE THORNY WAY OF TRUTH. A half an hour video was > registered which everybody can receive. > [...] From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 21:02:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA21965; Tue, 30 May 2000 21:01:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 21:01:02 -0700 Message-ID: <006601bfcab3$e0c92aa0$c09a10cf@drosigno> Reply-To: "David Rosignoli" From: "David Rosignoli" To: References: Subject: Re: [FG]: 2nd gravity-cap report Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 23:54:09 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"_MZFj3.0.6N5.zv8Dv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15445 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com > He mentioned a 75KV supply, but it didn't blow through the waxpaper, > therefore it certainly wasn't running at 75KV. The corona leakage would > drag down the voltage if the supply impedance was large. Has anyone yet ruled out a coanda type effect in this device? > > > What bothers me is hearing reports from anonymous sources with limited information. > > If someone went through all the trouble of building this device (and believe > > me, it is very time consuming to do so), then why not provide a lot more information? > > I would have thought after putting one of these devices together and actually > > having it work successfully, one would be anxious to do so. > > But only weird people would attempt such a thing! :) Some are afraid to > attract attention, others want no competitors yet can't stand to remain > entirely silent. A hoaxer obviously would have no details to reveal. That's not completely true. If I wanted to lead you on, I would come up with a convincing story behind the construction and test of the device. Hey, maybe even throw in some MIB's to make it sound intriguing. It's just that we get so wrapped up in this idea of a "GRAVITY WARP CAPACITOR". Oooohhhhh!!. Wowie-zowie! You too can violate the Law of Conservation of Energy....Yata-yata-yata. My point is that it is too easy to become a believer. Pretty soon, you see antigravity where none exists. I am just saying that we need more details, or else this is just more lore. (BTW, don't misunderstand me. I think there is probably something going on behind the BB effect, and possibly this device, but more information is needed.) Besides, as far as I know, no significant details have been revealed. > People act like alchemists keeping big important secrets, rather than like > scientists who WANT others to replicate. There's a "guru effect", where > everyone has to come to the Antigravity Guru to receive their snippets of > secret knowledge. A scientific attitude requires humility, since after > a secret is published, the Guru no longer can attract attention to himself > by being its "gatekeeper." I'm in favor of deflating the gurus and > publicizing the secrets. However, I'm not going to take it upon myself to > pass private conversations on to the list unless I get permission. Well, that's understandable that you want to get permission. And you are correct about the Guru concept. I think each of us should be a little anti-guru every day ;) From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 21:13:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA27632; Tue, 30 May 2000 21:11:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 21:11:35 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.16.20000530211245.303f2598@earthlink.net> X-Sender: ddameron@earthlink.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (16) Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 21:12:45 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: Dave Dameron Subject: Re: [FG]: HV power supply In-Reply-To: <00d901bfca69$87ce8a20$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> References: <000001bfc992$4536f120$82b422cf@a9o0z0> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"OSDUN.0.fl6.s39Dv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15447 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi Sam and all, At 03:01 PM 05/30/00 -0400, you wrote: >Alik, >Do you have any ideas for where to find a variable HV power supply like >between 1KV - maybe 2KV or more with more than 10uA current capability that >is cheap? I remember seeing several companies selling an "ion generator kit" for about $15 to 20. It looked like a diode-cap voltage multiplier (Cockcroft Walton voltage multiplier) with about 15 stages, so for 120 Volts rms input it would produce about 5kV. Or you could wire it yourself with 2N 1N4007 diodes and 2N capacitors for N stages and N*(peak-peak input voltage) output voltage. 10 microamps current seems reasonable for such a circuit. -Dave From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 21:13:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA25273; Tue, 30 May 2000 21:06:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 21:06:34 -0700 From: tv@juno.com To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 21:07:53 -0700 Message-ID: <20000530.210753.-328995.3.tv@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 3.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-8,10-13 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 Resent-Message-ID: <"w6vjY3.0.eA6.A_8Dv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15446 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Hutchison, The Poltergeist Machine Here is an excellant article on the Hutchison Effect: "The Poltergeist Machine" http://www.nexusmagazine.com//Polter.html a little more of the same http://www.forteantimes.com/artic/92/polter.html This author does NOT believe the effects are due to spirits or ghost or PK but to an electromagnetic phenomena of an unknown nature. TV From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 22:21:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA17750; Tue, 30 May 2000 22:19:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 22:19:13 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000531131404.009d6d90@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> X-Sender: jwinter@cyllene.uwa.edu.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 13:14:04 +0800 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: John Winterflood Subject: Re: [FG]: Book about Testatika ? In-Reply-To: <20000530.205340.-328995.2.tv@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"oN_CI.0.9L4.H3ADv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15448 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tim wrote: > >Below is mentioned the volume 5 THE THORNY WAY OF TRUTH by the late >Stefan Marinov. > >Does anyone have this book ? I have a copy. >Were can it be obtained ? I doubt if it can be obtained any more as Marinov did his own publishing (it was the only way he could get some of his stuff published!). I heard that he left a lot of books with a friend before he committed suicide but I can't remember exactly who. This person would be the only source of his remaining stock of books. >Is it of much value ? It cost me a lot as he wouldn't sell it by itself - I had to purchase the whole set of volumes (approx 10 of them and I seem to recall my order coming to ~AUD$1000). They are also precious to me and I am not willing to lend them away! But that doesn't mean they are much use as far as prying into the secrets of the Testatica. They do however convince one that the devices were real and did what they claimed to do - which is what is required in order to get motiviated enough to start experimenting. Volume 5 was "dedicated" to the Testatica, but I was *very* dissapointed by its contents. At least 50% of the book was simply old photocopies of the original papers describing Wimshurst, Poggendorf, etc machines, which I might have found interesting if they hadn't all been in German! Apart from a few photo's (which have been widely published), and some letters back and forth to various people about it (such as trying to persuade the then editor of Nature Dr J. Maddox to come and have a look at the device), there was very little information indeed. There is probably just as much about the Testatica to be gleaned from his other volumes. Almost everything in these books is in the forms of his papers, together with the almost infinite string of correspondence arguing with editors and referees to try and get the papers published! But he didn't write any paper about the Testatica, just an occasional letter talks about it as I recall. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 22:30:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA20009; Tue, 30 May 2000 22:28:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 22:28:27 -0700 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: [FG]: Is Water An Electrolyte? Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 01:42:22 -0400 Message-ID: <20000531054222203.AAA280@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"uVL6n1.0.Yu4.wBADv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15449 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Zack writes: >I thought you were talking about ice-nine! :) > >Zack Ha! No, but that thought does occur to me once in a while. The original nuclear bomb scientists were afraid that once the nuclear fission reaction started, it would not be self-limiting, and would wipe out Earth. At the time, the correlations between the actual events and math were not developed to the point that a prediction could be reliably made. Eventually, the stronger voices won out, they tested the bomb, and it was found to be self-limiting. Whenever I look at reactions that absorb a great deal of heat energy, ice nine pops into my head with a grin. Vonnegut's sister was a Nobel Prize winning chemist, as you may know. I used to drive by their family's hardware store in Indianapolis on my way into work everyday. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 22:44:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA24084; Tue, 30 May 2000 22:42:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 22:42:04 -0700 Message-ID: <002a01bfca81$33558da0$62b522cf@a9o0z0> From: "Alik S" To: "Stefan Hartmann" , Subject: Re: [FG]: Fw: [FG]: musings about the Hutchinson effect apparatus Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 21:51:22 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"oYhgX3.0.Du5.hOADv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15450 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com > >Amazing ! >I almost could not believe this, if I had not seen this myself, >but I also never witnessed myself yet PK effects... >Did you see something simular already with other "PK tests persons" ? some spoons bending at PK party :-) > >How did it vanish ? >Just in a flash and was there any noise with it and >was there any beam directed at this vise-grip ? no noise, no beam , just a flash of bluish light. >How long did you search to find it in the box later ?? about 15-20 min >Why does not the equipment go bad or to failure, >that is in the near vincentity ? > somtimes things went pooof ( I really hate it when PCB filled caps explode :-) >If this is really true, maybe the atoms go to a different >dimension mabye the sixth or seventh dimension and then >have some time jump and reappear in our 3 dimensional world >again after a few seconds...? > > pass through each other (and sometimes get stuck on the way). > >Did you see this also happen ?? Saw the results of it, like the knife burried inside a metal part . > >I saw some levitation videos done earlier with 8 mm camera, >but these looked pretty much unreal, as if somebody pulled the objects >with a >fishing line in front of the camera up and down... >maybe this wasjust badly filmed...? >What do you think ? I saw things moving around like that and there was no fishing line >hmm.but there were also some pretty interesting thinks seen >as a spoon which shaked heavily and also bended up and down >immensely. I hope it was not just an aluminium foil... As far as I know its real > > >I have seen on a newer tape some kind >of solid state crystal metal converter from 2 different metals >which could propell a small toy motor. >Was it this kind of "metall-battery" you mean with free-energy gizmo ? I measured output from one of John's units that made over 1W and ran the little motor. As far as I know that unit does not exist anymore. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 22:49:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA26424; Tue, 30 May 2000 22:47:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 22:47:04 -0700 Message-ID: <003101bfca81$e69b69c0$62b522cf@a9o0z0> From: "Alik S" To: Subject: Re: [FG]: HV power supply Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 21:56:24 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"5_M2P1.0.nS6.OTADv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15451 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com -----Original Message----- From: Sam Garza To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 7:01 PM Subject: Re: [FG]: HV power supply >Alik, >Do you have any ideas for where to find a variable HV power supply like >between 1KV - maybe 2KV or more with more than 10uA current capability that >is cheap? If you do not mind building things a diode V-multiplier from a TV set should work (free from a junkyard). How 'cheap' and how close are you to good electronic junkyards ? Alik S >----- Original Message ----- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 23:01:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA30642; Tue, 30 May 2000 22:59:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 22:59:41 -0700 Message-ID: <004701bfca83$aac18900$62b522cf@a9o0z0> From: "Alik S" To: , Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 22:09:02 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"tV7vv2.0.cU7.DfADv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15452 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Re: Re musings about the Hutchinson effect apparatus -----Original Message----- From: tv@juno.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Cc: alik@intergate.bc.ca Date: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 2:06 AM Subject: Re musings about the Hutchinson effect apparatus >Hi Alik, > >Have you ever seen an anomalous effect occur without John H. present and with someone else at the controls ? The set up had 2-3 variacs for controls and lots of spark gaps and things that you would not touch while HV was on. John would set it up and we would basically wait for something to happen. > >Have there ever been effects without the charged/ionized air present ? Yes. > >Tim Vaughan > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 04:04:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA21151; Wed, 31 May 2000 04:00:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 04:00:57 -0700 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: [FG]: 2nd gravity-cap report Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 07:14:57 -0400 Message-ID: <20000531111457500.AAA279@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"D4hDe2.0.OA5.e3FDv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15453 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Dave writes: >> He mentioned a 75KV supply, but it didn't blow through the waxpaper, >> therefore it certainly wasn't running at 75KV. The corona leakage would >> drag down the voltage if the supply impedance was large. > >Has anyone yet ruled out a coanda type effect in this device? This might not be as visible on the stack type apparatii as it would the hat shaped configuration, but the easy way to look for Coanda Effect of course, is to blow smoke over it and look for vortices. If there is any consistent movement at all, it would be indicative of Coanda Effect. This is not to say that is not an A-Grav device, it only would prove that the device takes advantage of the Coanda Effect while in the atmosphere. Vortices might be too small to see without magnification on the stack type devices though, but it wouldn't cost much to look for them using this method. Other methods might include IR imaging, or Schleiren photography. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 07:04:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA06745; Wed, 31 May 2000 07:04:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 07:04:31 -0700 From: tv@juno.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 07:04:56 -0700 Message-ID: <20000531.070516.-271643.0.tv@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 3.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 Resent-Message-ID: <"tueMO2.0.Af1.llHDv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15454 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Re: musings about the Hutchinson effect apparatus >Have there ever been effects without the charged/ionized air present ? Yes. Please Alik, could you elaborate ? What was the equipment ? Tim From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 09:46:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA08874; Wed, 31 May 2000 09:45:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 09:45:36 -0700 Message-ID: <000001bfcadd$e6016ee0$55b422cf@a9o0z0> From: "Alik S" To: Subject: Re: [FG]: Re: musings about the Hutchinson effect apparatus Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 08:52:15 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"v9XbV1.0.XA2.l6KDv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15455 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com -----Original Message----- From: tv@juno.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 2:04 PM Subject: [FG]: Re: musings about the Hutchinson effect apparatus >>Have there ever been effects without the charged/ionized air present ? >Yes. > >Please Alik, could you elaborate ? What was the equipment ? > >Tim The equipment in the lab/warehouse was always the same, but sometimes different machines were left off. Most of the effects were of destroyed metal sample type. As far as I know John does not have any of the HV stuff right now, there is no room in his place for a big VDG, yet he managed to destroy a considerable lenght of water pipe in his building (water pipes are his specialty:-) and most likely caused something weird in other apartments because police showed up. I think some reporters were actually filming effects in his apartment when this happened. I suspect that the PK part is 'contaigious' because after being around John and/or his gizmos I had minor PK effects which have not come back since. I suspect that hanging around HV/TCs etc for a long time can enhance PK abilities in some people but that is just my wild guess. I should add that John does not seem to agree with my PK idea. He has e-mail and I will ask him to communicate with the list. Alik S. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 12:38:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA20420; Wed, 31 May 2000 12:34:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 12:34:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 12:33:11 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: 2nd gravity-cap report In-Reply-To: <20000531111457500.AAA279@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"JN4nD2.0.z-4.paMDv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15456 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Wed, 31 May 2000, Michael T Huffman wrote: > Dave writes: > >> He mentioned a 75KV supply, but it didn't blow through the waxpaper, > >> therefore it certainly wasn't running at 75KV. The corona leakage would > >> drag down the voltage if the supply impedance was large. > > > >Has anyone yet ruled out a coanda type effect in this device? If it creates a 15lb thrust, it will be totally obvious if the thrust is created by "electric wind". Such a wind would be a noisy air blast. Imagine a tabletop fan which ejects enough air to knock itself over, or to lift itself into the air. Think! If you need smoke to detect the air currents, then those air currents CANNOT create a huge thrust which can lift a 2lb capacitor. The claims for the "gravity capacitor" are totally different than JLN's results with the ELG-hat. The "Gravity capacitor" supposedly can zoom across the lab and blow a hole in the wall if it should get loose. If our grav-cap experiments only create a tiny force, and the tiny force might be caused by ion clouds or electric wind, then we haven't replicated the enormous forces being claimed by these others. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 13:35:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA18355; Wed, 31 May 2000 13:33:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 13:33:22 -0700 Message-ID: <20000531203241.59599.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [166.102.82.76] From: "colin cain" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: 2nd gravity-cap report Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 13:32:41 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"7ibKu2.0.iU4.HSNDv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15457 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com But we have yet to see any proof positive of those results. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 17:06:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA12490; Wed, 31 May 2000 17:05:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 17:05:18 -0700 Message-ID: <3935A96B.722890C0@csrlink.net> Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 20:08:12 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: Is Water An Electrolyte? References: <393033A8.3DEFE69D@csrlink.net> <004f01bfca34$2e3ca620$7ba02ad1@americanengr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"P3_Il2.0._23.zYQDv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15458 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi, I dropped the "L" accidentally. It should say Platina. That is an archaic word for Platinum. MJ Sam Graze wrote: > I have done a lot of testing with water using 316L stainless plates and I > can tell you pure steam distilled water does not conduct electricity until > you add an electrolyte. The sulfuric acid mentioned in your no 2 is the > electrolyte. Michael Faraday was back in the early 1800s and was probably > using clean water from some source and it has minerals(electrolytes) in it. > Standard tap water today is loaded with minerals and conducts electricity > very well, but they will quickly coat the positive and negative plates with > minerals too. which is why you use distilled water in the first place. Now > as to the lead and patina that Michael used. What is patina? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mike Johnston > To: Michael S. Johnston > Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2000 4:44 PM > Subject: [FG]: Is Water An Electrolyte? > > > Hi All, > > During the last several months I have been doing quite a bit of > > reading about water. One of the most interesting things that I found out > > was that there is quite a bit of variation from book to book regarding > > the most basic attributes of water. These aren't pseudo science books > > written by amateurs with a cause to prove (or product to sell) either. > > They are, for the most part, college level textbooks on chemistry, > > physics and electricity. > > I guess that explains why there has been such disagreement on these > > lists when I happen to state something from one of these books. It looks > > like we are all taught something different in this matter depending on > > which book our instructors decided to use! > > If something as simple as whether or not water conducts electricity > > is taught in such contradictory fashion from book to book and only one > > version can be right, then how much of the rest of the information that > > we are taught regarding the physical sciences is any more accurate? > > To prove my point I would like to quote some statements directly out > > of the books to which I refer and let you be the judge. > > 1) " Electrolysis is used to break down water, which is a compound of > > Hydrogen and oxygen, into it's component gasses. The difficulty here, > > however, is that PURE WATER IS NOT AN ELECTROLYTE AND WILL NOT CONDUCT > > ELECTRICITY." > > From: Electricity for Electricians > > By: Abraham Marcus > > Special printing for the National Joint Apprenticeship Committee for the > > Electrical Industry > > Printed By: Prentice-Hall,inc. > > Englewood Cliffs, NJ > > > > 2) "The cell then, consists of two electrodes.....and AN ELECTROLYTE > > that is for the most part distilled (pure) WATER. There is some Sulfuric > > Acid mixed with the water but in the uncharged state IT'S PRESENCE IS > > INSIGNIFICANT." > > Electricity one-seven > > By: Harry Mileat, Editor in Chief > > Hayden Book Company inc. > > > > 3) "In the preceding discussions it has been assumed that water is a > > non-conductor of electricity in conductivity determinations. It IS FOUND > > HOWEVER, BY PRECISE MEASUREMENT THAT EVEN HIGHLY PURIFIED WATER DOES > > CONDUCT ELECTRICITY TO A SLIGHT EXTENT. IT MUST BE THAT WATER ITSELF IS > > DISASSOCIATED INTO POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE IONS AND SHOULD BE CLASSIFIED > > AS A WEAK ELECTROLYTE." > > From: Chemistry > > By: Michell J. Sienko and Robert A. Plane > > Assoc. Prof. of Chem Asst. Prof. of Chem. > > Cornell Univ. Cornell Univ. > > Printed By: McGraw-Hill Book Company > > Ny,Toronto,London > > > > 4) "A Plate of clean lead and a plate of patina were put into PURE > > WATER. THERE WAS IMMEDIATELY A POWERFUL CURRENT PRODUCED FROM THE LEAD > > THROUGH THE WATER TO THE PATINA..........Here no action of acid or > > alkali on the oxide formed from the lead could supply the electricity: > > IT WAS DUE SOLELY TO THE OXIDATION OF THE METAL (BY THE WATER)." > > "The water, as water, cannot conduct electricity OR AT LEAST > > ONLY SO SMALL A PROPORTION THAT IT IS MERELY AN INCIDENTAL EFFECT." > > Michael Farady > > Letters to the Royal Society > > Circa 1834 > > > > As you can easily see, any of these sources of information could be > > cited as a valid source of information by someone who wanted to "prove" > > a point. Unfortunately there are two seemingly entirely opposite > > conclusions here which are both presented by various, credentialed > > authors as being equally valid Both sides cannot be correct and so how > > is anyone supposed to do any valid further research if even these most > > basic concepts must be proved or disproved all over again before they > > even start? > > MJ > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 17:17:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA19534; Wed, 31 May 2000 17:17:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 17:17:06 -0700 Message-ID: <3935AB4B.96D481@csrlink.net> Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 20:16:12 -0400 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael S. Johnston" Subject: Re: [FG]: 2nd gravity-cap report References: <39342bc6.3170.0@enter.net> <39342F47.9BB08078@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7IIYH2.0.6n4.1kQDv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15459 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi eks, Didn't JPL realize when making that H2 powered car that to eliminate the H2 embrittlement they would have to effect complete combustion of the H2? The easiest way to do that would be to burn it with the O2 that is released from the water with it. If you made a special injector with it' own combustion or pre combustion chamber you could get complete combustion and overcome that problem. MJ eks1 wrote: > David Rosignoli wrote: > > > What bothers me is hearing reports from anonymous sources with limited information. > > If someone went through all the trouble of building this device (and believe > > me, it is very time consuming to do so), then why not provide a lot more information? > > I would have thought after putting one of these devices together and actually > > having it work successfully, one would be anxious to do so. > > Must be a bad case of "Inventors Disease" or something similar. I've seen > dozens of claims for these things over the years, yet I've never run across > even ONE person who could claim to have duplicated Carr's Saucer. I > have a copy of the patent, it makes little sense in terms of engineering a > demonstration prototype such as the one that hundreds, if not thousands > saw fly in the late 1950's! > --- > "When it comes to paradigms, you must shift for yourself!" - Anon > > |-----------------------| > | Systems Research Ltd. |------->"Any real-world system is more.. > |-----------------------| ..than the mere sum of it's parts!" > Erik K. Sorgatz (KB6LUY) http://home.earthlink.net/~eks1 From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 18:10:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA04233; Wed, 31 May 2000 18:09:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 18:09:24 -0700 Message-ID: <004601bfcb65$106ede60$c69b10cf@drosigno> Reply-To: "David Rosignoli" From: "David Rosignoli" To: References: Subject: Re: [FG]: 2nd gravity-cap report Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 21:02:30 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"RkBvN2.0.221.4VRDv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15460 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Bill wrote: > > >Has anyone yet ruled out a coanda type effect in this device? > > If it creates a 15lb thrust, it will be totally obvious if the thrust is > created by "electric wind". Such a wind would be a noisy air blast. 15lbs? True, a wind strong enough to move 15lbs. would be quite loud. No, deafening. > Imagine a tabletop fan which ejects enough air to knock itself over, or to > lift itself into the air. Think! If you need smoke to detect the air > currents, then those air currents CANNOT create a huge thrust which can > lift a 2lb capacitor. The claims for the "gravity capacitor" are totally This sounds right to me. But how do these people know that the force generated is 2lbs? Are they testing the capacitor vertically, and watching it actually lift itself off of the ground? Or do they suspend it and watch the angular deflection? Is it suspended on a balanced lever? I am suspending it horizontally by some nylon fishing line, and attempting to watch any deflections. Unfortunately, I am distracted with other things at the moment so I can't test it right now. > different than JLN's results with the ELG-hat. The "Gravity capacitor" > supposedly can zoom across the lab and blow a hole in the wall if it > should get loose. > If our grav-cap experiments only create a tiny force, and the tiny force > might be caused by ion clouds or electric wind, then we haven't replicated > the enormous forces being claimed by these others. Just knowing that someone can "create a huge thrust which can lift a 2lb capacitor" is not enough information. The whole setup must be taken into account. (Just look at the emails going around about the Hutchison Effect.) From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 18:27:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA12091; Wed, 31 May 2000 18:26:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 18:26:40 -0700 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: [FG]: 2nd gravity-cap report Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 21:40:39 -0400 Message-ID: <20000601014039828.AAA240@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"bXlQI.0.qy2.FlRDv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15461 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Bill writes: >If it creates a 15lb thrust, it will be totally obvious if the thrust is >created by "electric wind". Such a wind would be a noisy air blast. >Imagine a tabletop fan which ejects enough air to knock itself over, or to >lift itself into the air. Think! If you need smoke to detect the air >currents, then those air currents CANNOT create a huge thrust which can >lift a 2lb capacitor. The claims for the "gravity capacitor" are totally >different than JLN's results with the ELG-hat. The "Gravity capacitor" >supposedly can zoom across the lab and blow a hole in the wall if it >should get loose. > >If our grav-cap experiments only create a tiny force, and the tiny force >might be caused by ion clouds or electric wind, then we haven't replicated >the enormous forces being claimed by these others. I wasn't aware that these had zoomed around in fact, I thought these were simple wieght loss observations. Sorry about that. If it does zoom around, it still doesn't necessarily rule out Coanda Effect. It just rules out the effect being totally air driven. It is my belief that these torsion fields or the Aether itself is subject to the same fluid dynamics laws that shape our normal experiential world, and that while the coupling mechanisms may be different, the same vortex shaping and other geometrics will apply in the same fashion to exert a force that is manifested in "this" reality. The Time Vector aspects are quite interesting of course, and are probably what are making it difficult to understand. It is difficult to express these ideas with a language that is rooted in a consensual physical reality when what we have all witnessed at one time or another is "physically impossible". You have to remember that Jean-Louis's glider is lifted and that it weighs well over 15lbs. It just uses an intelligent geometry to do it. There are definitely vortex air currents running over the panels, as the Roth paper pointed out, and the measured wind speed was 600mph. Given the right positioning of the foil, dielectric material stack, and the right size of vortices being created on the outside of that, it is not any stretch at all to envision a stack type device working the same way. So it may be possible that it is a Coanda Effect that is air driven. Until someone can replicate and make some observations, we really can't know, but all of Jean-Louis's stuff, so far has been understandable to me in this way. The field lines that JL has drawn on the hat trick illustration, only show the field lines, BTW. The illustration does not provide any clues as to how the small air vortices are formed by the quantum time whack of those fields lines, when they are being formed. That you have to fill in with your imagination. Oh, oh... ;) Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 18:56:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA23086; Wed, 31 May 2000 18:56:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 18:56:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 18:56:03 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: David Rosignoli cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: 2nd gravity-cap report In-Reply-To: <004601bfcb65$106ede60$c69b10cf@drosigno> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Xvnek2.0.Te5.tASDv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15462 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Wed, 31 May 2000, David Rosignoli wrote: > 15lbs? True, a wind strong enough to move 15lbs. would be quite loud. No, > deafening. The first guy claims that it lifts its own 1KG weight, and also pushes upwards on some sort of non-electronic scale to give a reading of 5.5KG. Now if I do not use the glass box and I lock the device with four short, equal strings to the negative end with the table or floor ( I use a table) and I charge it, then the capacitor kicks itself up, The second guy measured a 3lb thrust, and claims that some versions would lift themselves. The third guy said it gives 45deg with the pendulum test, but that was a different type of device, where the thrust came from the edges of the plates. > Just knowing that someone can "create a huge thrust which can lift a 2lb > capacitor" is not enough information. Have you read the emails from the "S" guy? He gives enough info, I think. Unless of course it doesn't work. Then we won't know if it's just a hoax, or if there's some small difference which causes failure. No amount of evidence is convincing, if your attitude starts out as Disbelief. It's not just the professional skeptics who "move goalposts." Anyone can say anything via email, so we need photos. Photos could easily be hoaxed, so we need videos. But videos could easily be hoaxed too. The only solution is to achieve successful replication... and then it STILL could be a hoax, as far as everyone except that one experimenter is concerned! :) It's easy to get into the same situation as those who spit on Cold Fusion, saying that they won't believe CF is real until anyone can buy a CF power plant at Sears. To test fringe science claims, one has to be unafraid of being ridiculed by hoaxers. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 19:32:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA02261; Wed, 31 May 2000 19:31:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 19:31:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 19:30:58 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20000531203241.59599.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ydZ2f2.0.AZ.6iSDv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15463 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [FG]: Grav-cap negative results? On Wed, 31 May 2000, colin cain wrote: > But we have yet to see any proof positive of those results. Hey fnrg people, has anyone tried a full-blown grav-cap experiment? By "full blown", I mean using 200 foils or more. Any negative results? ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 21:48:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA21985; Wed, 31 May 2000 21:48:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 21:48:13 -0700 Message-ID: <002501bfcb83$a4850ac0$ef9910cf@drosigno> Reply-To: "David Rosignoli" From: "David Rosignoli" To: References: <20000601014039828.AAA240@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Subject: Re: [FG]: 2nd gravity-cap report Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 00:41:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"iV0qw2.0.LN5.CiUDv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15464 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com I wonder how Laviolette's Subquantum Kinetics could be applied to this? I think he treats the ether as a fluid composed of different types of ethers. He even remarks on the brown effect. I wonder if his approach could predict this grav-cap motion. Just a thought. ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael T Huffman To: Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 9:40 PM Subject: Re: [FG]: 2nd gravity-cap report > > I wasn't aware that these had zoomed around in fact, I thought these were > simple wieght loss observations. Sorry about that. If it does zoom around, > it still doesn't necessarily rule out Coanda Effect. It just rules out the > effect being totally air driven. It is my belief that these torsion fields > or the Aether itself is subject to the same fluid dynamics laws that shape > our normal experiential world, and that while the coupling mechanisms may be > different, the same vortex shaping and other geometrics will apply in the > same fashion to exert a force that is manifested in "this" reality. The > Time Vector aspects are quite interesting of course, and are probably what > are making it difficult to understand. It is difficult to express these > ideas with a language that is rooted in a consensual physical reality when > what we have all witnessed at one time or another is "physically impossible". > > You have to remember that Jean-Louis's glider is lifted and that it weighs > well over 15lbs. It just uses an intelligent geometry to do it. There are > definitely vortex air currents running over the panels, as the Roth paper > pointed out, and the measured wind speed was 600mph. Given the right > positioning of the foil, dielectric material stack, and the right size of > vortices being created on the outside of that, it is not any stretch at all > to envision a stack type device working the same way. So it may be possible > that it is a Coanda Effect that is air driven. Until someone can replicate > and make some observations, we really can't know, but all of Jean-Louis's > stuff, so far has been understandable to me in this way. > > The field lines that JL has drawn on the hat trick illustration, only show > the field lines, BTW. The illustration does not provide any clues as to how > the small air vortices are formed by the quantum time whack of those fields > lines, when they are being formed. That you have to fill in with your > imagination. Oh, oh... ;) From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 22:10:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA29390; Wed, 31 May 2000 22:09:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 22:09:52 -0700 From: myagent2@home.com Message-ID: <003401bfcb87$f4a46060$0100a8c0@alsv1.occa.home.com> To: References: Subject: Re: [FG]: 2nd gravity-cap report Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 22:12:15 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"oQ-Vz3.0.7B7.W0VDv"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15465 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mr. Beaty, I'd have to say that if *you* were to reproduce the results, I would be apt to believe you. :) I plan to give this a try. I will send you plans, pics, video, and a nice post card from Jamaica if it works! Man, the things you could create with one of these! I imagine you have at least tried some simpler version of this capacitor yourself? PS: Thank you for the work you have put into your web site. It has been very inspirational. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Beaty" To: "David Rosignoli" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 6:56 PM Subject: Re: [FG]: 2nd gravity-cap report > Photos could easily > be hoaxed, so we need videos. But videos could easily be hoaxed too. The > only solution is to achieve successful replication... and then it STILL > could be a hoax, as far as everyone except that one experimenter is > concerned! :) It's easy to get into the same situation as those who spit > on Cold Fusion, saying that they won't believe CF is real until anyone can > buy a CF power plant at Sears. To test fringe science claims, one has to > be unafraid of being ridiculed by hoaxers. > > ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science > Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L