From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov  1 06:10:54 1998
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Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 08:51:45 -0800
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Subject: Re: collapsing fields
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Patrick Tremblay wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I got this from MPG OUTLET:
> 
> EMF COLLECTOR
> Collect the wasted EMF energy from your existing motors and transformers.
> Most people don't know that the collapsing electromagnetic field on all
> motors and transformers is wasted energy. Learn how to recapture and feed
> this energy back into the input or battery system. As much as 2/3 of the
> energy that is wasted may be reclaimed. 3X over-unity motor patent
> included. Instructions and schematics.
> #30-011 $29.95
> 
> Is it true that in an ordinary coupling transformer, with 90 degrees phase
> angle, is it true that the collapsing fields are wasted and that some
> energy can be recovered.
> 
> what do you think ?

Most modern transformers are over 90% efficient, so how much savings
could
there be?  Well less than two thirds.

The loss takes several forms, such as eddy currents and so on.  Some of
that
lost energy i turned into heat, and it is possible to convert some of
that waste heat into uable energy, but never all of it, as the
collection and reconversion process will also have its own losses.

Without collapsing magnetic fields, neither transformers nor motors
would
work at all, this is not the cause of the 'under unity problem' at all,
after
all, transformers do not work with DC currents even though steady DC
current would have no collapsing field.

The reason motors and transformers are under unity is due to fundemental
symetries of nature, not the lack of some clever design feature or new
arangement of coil and magnet.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov  1 06:29:43 1998
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Dennis C. Lee wrote:

<snip>

> >> Seismic earthquake sensors detected on of these things fly all the way
> >> around the world at 5000 MPH (as I recall) without stopping for gas. It
> >> can't be anything but TTBrown stuff.
> >
> >Seismic sensor detected high speed aircraft indeed, but the sightings
> >do not match either the F-117 or the B2, neither of which would hold
> >together at such speeds.
> 
> A field effect may repel turbulance if not create a plasma vacuum layer.

Based on what evidence?  Can you support this claim?
 
> >You say it 'can't be anything but', however the majority of evidence
> >shows that there is no TTBronwn effect at all.
> 
> That's because nobody knows how to determine mass chord values to tune the
> electrodes to the field.

I disagree.  Again, what evidence do you have to support this claim?

TT BRown claimed an effect that has been tested for.  Its a very
challanging
effect to test.  So far, there is not clear evidence for the effect. 
Brown's
experiments claiming such an effect had nothing to do with mass chord
values.

How do we differentiate the reality from the modern myth here?  Where
are the
facts for this mass chord value concept?
 
> >The high speed aircraft has been sighted, and its neither the F-117 nor
> >the B2.  The sighting describes a triangular delta wing lifting body
> >about the size of an F-111.  Some evidence suggests the use of pulse
> >detonation wave engines, not electrogravitics.
> 
> What gave the impression of a pulse detonation wave engine?

A unique contril was sighted and photographed.  This contrail clearly
shows
toroids of exaust wrapped around the main contrail.  This is exactly
what is
produced by pulse detonation wave engines in simulations.  There have
also 
been acoustic reports of the ungodly sound of the PDW engine associated
with
test flights of the 'aroura' program.  

NOte that this is quite different from the claims of silent,
antigraviational
propulsion.  The actual evidence simply does not fit with the claims.
 
> >Given this, your argument falls apart, the evidence does not appear to
> >support your argument.
> 
> Well, Tom Valone wrote a book about this and he put alot of reseach into it.

Yes he did, and its simply wrong.  You cannot accept someones research
uncritically, especially when there is a good deal of evidence that the
research is faulty.

Books like that sell to a large group of people who WANT to beleive
something, and already do beleive, so they accept the 'research' as
accurate without critical examination of the evidence.

> He thought it was a TTBrown device where the ionized exhaust gas becomes an
> electrode. The point was that a gas turbine engine isn't a possibility for
> this level of performance.

The Pulse Detonation Wave engine does.  Cryogenic chemical fuels have
more
than enough energy density for this level of performance.  You might
want to
read some of the books on the 'Aurora project' where they detail
multi-mode engines good for takeoff up to Mach 3, and the PDW engines
that run from about Mach 2.5 up to over Mach 5.
 
> >> >There may well be hidden, very advanced designs, but the ideas that this
> >> >technology is in the 117's and B2's is faulty.  Your not going to change
> >> >large scale behaviors with weak and faulty data.
> 
> Did you see Tom Valone's book, "Electrogravitics"?

Its quite easy to verify if the claims made in 'The Anti-Gravity
Squadron'
match the available evidence.  In my opinion, it simply does not match.

This was the book that launched the idea that the F-117 and B2 were
something
more than conventional aerodynamic aircraft.  Its hogwash in light of
the evidence.
 
> >> Those aircraft are for show. There are designs we got from aliens that are
> >> the real McCoy. It's not my data that's the problem, it's your study skills.
> >
> >Really?  Check the evidence on the sightings of the SR-75 and XR-7
> >aircraft.
> 
> How does one do that?

Do your homework.  Verify claims before accepting them as fact.

Read Avation Leak and Space Mythology, (actually, Avation Week and Space
Technology) as they have published many photographs and sighting
information
on these, and other 'black projects'.

I'm a pilot.  I have read a lot on these subjects, and while my Piper
Cherokee is no SR-71, I also know something about the Military, having
served in the Air Force.  Information leaks out.  It gets reported in
trade publications like AWST and such.  That being the case, you can
actully go to a hobby shop, and buy a model of the SR-75, and the XR-7.

I can personally tell you that at the very least, the model of the SR-75
is accurate, as this aircraft has been sighted on a number of occations.

I've seen one pesonally, in flight.  While its got something special
under the hood, and it clearly is not running on the 100 octane, low
lead Avgas I burn, it is essentially a conventional aircraft.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov  1 13:42:45 1998
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From: "Dennis C. Lee" <atech@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: CIA? This is for you!
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Hi;


At 09:17 AM 11/1/98 -0800, you wrote:

>Dennis C. Lee wrote:
>> A field effect may repel turbulance if not create a plasma vacuum layer.

>Based on what evidence?  Can you support this claim?

Ionized air pumps boundary layer along aircraft surfaces - more power, vacuum
Patent # 3,095,163 Ionized Boundary Layer Fluid Pumping System

Uses magnetic field to substantially decrease overpressure on nose cone.
Patent # 3,662,554 Electromagnetic Propulsion Device for Use in the Foward
Part of a Moving Body

 
>> >You say it 'can't be anything but', however the majority of evidence
>> >shows that there is no TTBronwn effect at all.
>> 
>> That's because nobody knows how to determine mass chord values to tune the
>> electrodes to the field.
>
>I disagree.  Again, what evidence do you have to support this claim?

I did asymmetrical electrode plasma experiments under a vacuum bell jar for
a Unified Field Art Show. I called the vapor deposition station with fancy
spinning lights under the belljar, objective art sculpture. I have a scanned
post card but it's a 1 Meg file. Any who'd like to receive the postcard
bitmap email a request.

Anyways, the way the spinning cones, discs, and spheres of plasma reacted to
parameter changes led me to believe it to be a tuned effect.

>TT BRown claimed an effect that has been tested for.  Its a very
>challanging
>effect to test.  So far, there is not clear evidence for the effect. 
>Brown's
>experiments claiming such an effect had nothing to do with mass chord
>values.

He could not have said those exact words. Did he? He said 'mass chord'?


>How do we differentiate the reality from the modern myth here?  Where
>are the
>facts for this mass chord value concept?

Vibration modes changes mass of object
http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?patent_number=5280864

Dale Pond's Website on Sympathetic Vibratory Physics:
http://www.svpvril.com/

>> >The high speed aircraft has been sighted, and its neither the F-117 nor
>> >the B2.  The sighting describes a triangular delta wing lifting body
>> >about the size of an F-111.  Some evidence suggests the use of pulse
>> >detonation wave engines, not electrogravitics.
>> 
>> What gave the impression of a pulse detonation wave engine?
>
>A unique contril was sighted and photographed.  This contrail clearly
>shows
>toroids of exaust wrapped around the main contrail.  This is exactly
>what is
>produced by pulse detonation wave engines in simulations.  There have
>also 
>been acoustic reports of the ungodly sound of the PDW engine associated
>with
>test flights of the 'aroura' program.  

Is the PDW a jet turbine stream with periodic explosions dropped in the jet
exhaust? I thought that these worked by propelling off the shock wave?
Usually, a parabolic surface will inefficiently capture the shockwave at
best. The seismic sensor tracking story states that the aircraft in question
went all the way around the earth nonstop. What is the fuel consumption for
going all the way around the Earth at 5,000 MPH?

>NOte that this is quite different from the claims of silent,
>antigraviational
>propulsion.  The actual evidence simply does not fit with the claims.
> 
>> >Given this, your argument falls apart, the evidence does not appear to
>> >support your argument.
>> 
>> Well, Tom Valone wrote a book about this and he put alot of reseach into it.
>
>Yes he did, and its simply wrong.  You cannot accept someones research
>uncritically, especially when there is a good deal of evidence that the
>research is faulty.
>
>Books like that sell to a large group of people who WANT to beleive
>something, and already do beleive, so they accept the 'research' as
>accurate without critical examination of the evidence.
>
>> He thought it was a TTBrown device where the ionized exhaust gas becomes an
>> electrode. The point was that a gas turbine engine isn't a possibility for
>> this level of performance.
>
>The Pulse Detonation Wave engine does.  Cryogenic chemical fuels have
>more
>than enough energy density for this level of performance.  You might
>want to
>read some of the books on the 'Aurora project' where they detail
>multi-mode engines good for takeoff up to Mach 3, and the PDW engines
>that run from about Mach 2.5 up to over Mach 5.

Patent # 3,022,430 Electrokinetic Generator. TTBrown.

In the above patent, there is a picture of a jet engine with HV DC positive
lead attached to the nose cone and a power supply needle injecting electrons
into the jet exhaust. The next level up would be a HV pulsed powersupply. A
jet can be made into a pulsed TTBrown electrokinetic device if one had
placed the negative pin electrode in the jet exhaust and used pulsed high
voltage. The nose cone or leading edges and surfaces would still be positive
HV charged. Were there  any reports of these surfaces seen glowing? Pulsed
HV DC in the exhaust may make it look like a PDW engine exhaust but there
isn't a parabolic reflector for what I understand as a necessary component
for such a system. And, the performance observed was circumnavigation of
Earth at 5000 MPH nonstop. Does PWD have the necessary power output for
maintainig the 5000 MPH velocity and the fuel flow rate for circumnavigation
nonstop?

I'm still not convinced a PWD engine can travel around the world with one
tank of gas nonstop and maintaining 5000 MPH.


Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov  1 14:38:55 1998
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Dennis C. Lee wrote:
> 
> Hi;
> 
> At 09:17 AM 11/1/98 -0800, you wrote:
> 
> >Dennis C. Lee wrote:

<snip>

> Ionized air pumps boundary layer along aircraft surfaces - more power, vacuum
> Patent # 3,095,163 Ionized Boundary Layer Fluid Pumping System
> 
> Uses magnetic field to substantially decrease overpressure on nose cone.
> Patent # 3,662,554 Electromagnetic Propulsion Device for Use in the Foward
> Part of a Moving Body

Interesting stuff!  This will take some time to read carefully.

<snip>

> >I disagree.  Again, what evidence do you have to support this claim?
> 
> I did asymmetrical electrode plasma experiments under a vacuum bell jar for
> a Unified Field Art Show. I called the vapor deposition station with fancy
> spinning lights under the belljar, objective art sculpture. I have a scanned
> post card but it's a 1 Meg file. Any who'd like to receive the postcard
> bitmap email a request.
> 
> Anyways, the way the spinning cones, discs, and spheres of plasma reacted to
> parameter changes led me to believe it to be a tuned effect.

What tuned effect?  This 'evidence' is unclear.
 
<snip>

> Is the PDW a jet turbine stream with periodic explosions dropped in the jet
> exhaust? I thought that these worked by propelling off the shock wave?

No, PDW's are not turbine engines.  There are also multi mode engines
that
may switch between ramjet and PDW modes, possibly also turbine boosted
for
low speed operation.  But the current thinking is that the XR-7 is piggy
backed onto the SR-75 for takeoff.  The fuel savings is tremendous.

Think of a typical SR-71 flight profile, full fuel load, takeoff, then 
immediate in flight refueling due to the demands of acceleration and
climb to altitude.  One at altitude and speed, fuel consumption drops. 
The second tank
of gas delivers substancially better milage!

> Usually, a parabolic surface will inefficiently capture the shockwave at
> best. The seismic sensor tracking story states that the aircraft in question
> went all the way around the earth nonstop. What is the fuel consumption for
> going all the way around the Earth at 5,000 MPH?

Ahh, the speed tracking data does not cover the Earth, There are
insufficient 
seismic sensors for this.  The 'good track' is across CA heading East
for landing.

The best eye-witness sighting was off the north cape from an oil
platform while the aircraft was being refueled in fight. 

Cryogenic methane fuel can cool the nose-cone and deliver better energy
density than hydrogen.
 
<snip>
 
> Patent # 3,022,430 Electrokinetic Generator. TTBrown.
> 
> In the above patent, there is a picture of a jet engine with HV DC positive
> lead attached to the nose cone and a power supply needle injecting electrons
> into the jet exhaust. The next level up would be a HV pulsed powersupply. A
> jet can be made into a pulsed TTBrown electrokinetic device if one had
> placed the negative pin electrode in the jet exhaust and used pulsed high
> voltage. The nose cone or leading edges and surfaces would still be positive
> HV charged. Were there  any reports of these surfaces seen glowing? Pulsed
> HV DC in the exhaust may make it look like a PDW engine exhaust but there
> isn't a parabolic reflector for what I understand as a necessary component
> for such a system. And, the performance observed was circumnavigation of
> Earth at 5000 MPH nonstop. Does PWD have the necessary power output for
> maintainig the 5000 MPH velocity and the fuel flow rate for circumnavigation
> nonstop?

There are lots of patents for devices that are impractical, or
non-functional.
The existiance of the patent alone is not strong evidence in light of
the 
number of measurments that show the TT Brown effect to be due to
experimental
error.  Even if its not error alone, the effect is vanishingly small.

> I'm still not convinced a PWD engine can travel around the world with one
> tank of gas nonstop and maintaining 5000 MPH.

One tank of gas is your claim, not matching the available evidence.

5,000 Mph was measured across CA, where seismic sensors are common
enough to
accurately measure such a flight profile.  If a sub-orbital atmospheric
skip
flight plan were used, the maximum speed would be much higher and the
majority of flight time would be in a very high speed glide
configuration.  This cuts the fuel demands WAY down.

Circumnavigation at 5,000 mph average, including refueling, is possible
with such a flight plan.  There have been designs for this type of
aircraft for many years, so
we have a long history of design and development.  The technology
clearly exists
today in a civilian form, the National AeroSpace Plane project.

The prototype already had a public roll out I beleive.  It could deliver
flight times such as New York to Toyko in 4 hours, runway to runway, on
a single tank of gas.

Is that getting close enough?

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Fillibuster

TR Knudtson

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At 06:57 AM 10/30/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Dear Chris,
>
>Thank you for your.  I do much enjoy reviewing those who would openly
>criticize an idea, as I see it, it is truthful information of the problems
>to be faced in a given idea or proposal.
>

Dear TR,

Thank you very much for viewing my comments with an open mind sorry I did
not reply earlier. 

>What I have shared here is very specific to the technology, and hard won
>information.  Please understand, that you view my efforts in the light of
>the existence of the Internet, this is a totally new world, unlike when
>this work was originally done.
>

True. Hence my comments. I have seen a long suppressed (Rife Tube from
1930s) cancer treatment technology literally come alive in less than 3
years because of the Internet and from the efforts of a kind soul (Dr.
James Bare). And Dr. Robert Beck exposing research (destined to be shelved)
of a simple in vivo application of micro current to destroy the AIDS and
numerous other ailments. More information available separately.

>I will for instance, reference the information regarding plate proximity
>and voltage requirements.  In pre-internet days, this may have taken long
>hours of study and some bit of luck to find, as are resonate harmonics.
>Those things have been shared openly.  There are single sentences, in some
>of my posts that have taken years and the work of many people, to then be
>simply, and easily placed here. Many who have been keeping a file of my
>posts are now making units that work, and that is exactly what I wanted to

>see. As far as "not invented here", my most recent unit is working in
>Canada and is now undergoing testing and adaptation for the mining
>community of Canada.
>
Fantastic! Are you referring to George Wiseman's unit?

>The post about forming a web site, is a good idea, and one of the obvious
>steps needed, to more properly use the power of the internet in furthering
>this technology, but as you might expect, that may become a full time job
>in it's self.
>
Yes that is surely a danger but those who have done it have used resources
from the net to help them. This in no way minimizes your comments - just a
suggestion. In any event this will be very time consuming.

>One main purpose in my suggestion of this project was to replicate my self
>many times over, among people who also would like to see this technology go
>forward. I can and will continue to post here, as well as keeping up my
>other internet work in helping groups with this technology.
>
I am very appreciative of this. In the case of Rife technology that is
exactly what was needed. It is now developing critical mass. 

>Multiple, independent corroboration, of each step in the design process is
>another thing that I can see of value in a group research project. As this
>unit would grow, many could come to bear on the independent verification of
>the test data.  Errors could be caught quickly, and corrected.
>
See above comment your assessment is right on target.

>Public domain, is what my posts have now become.  I feel that you may have
>misunderstood what I meant by certain restrictions of specific information.
> It is my expressed purpose, that the greatest amount of information be
>placed on a web site and shared with all to do there own work in this area
>of research.

Agreed

>I do feel that it would be unfair to release, outside the core group,
>design criteria specific to the prime project of the competition.  That
>would be like running a race, where the rules are, that you must push your
>opponent in front of you.
>
What I don't understand is how you are going to prevent the competition
getting this info once it is in public domain. The competition can and will
simply infiltrate the core group?? The public domain should actually level
the playing field that is exactly what has happen in the Rife situation
with the originators becoming highly respected expert consultants and the
public at large getting access to this technology. 

>One of the hardest things that I have personally faced here, is to get
>people to the point of understanding that there is no one universal design.
>Or if there is one, it is the welder.  Rather that getting into designing
>such a thing from the ground up, the option there, is just to go buy one.
>Although they cost about $10,000, many, I work with have done exactly that,
>and are now seeking and receiving my help on designing application
>technology.  I think my work here is different in that I seek to help those
>who want a deeper, first hand understanding of this technology.  i.e.  What

>experiments to do, what electrolyte to use, how much concentration, what
>plate material/spacing/connection, what type of power supply, how much
>current, all those things. All of this saves a beginner many hundreds of
>hours of research, and I am glad to do it.
>
Couldn't thank you more for this info, unfortunately I have only been
exposed to some of it but I will keep plugging away at it. I solidly fall
in the beginner category and my frustration stems from the good and bad
information overload I am getting on these issues (down side of the net)
lot of which is defocusing the issue at hand. I really would love to get
something solid to start on. It has never been an issue on joining  the
core group you have started. I am simply pointing some inconsistencies and
I really hope that it helps. If you will accept me then I surely would love
to join.

>One of my posts dealt with the eradication of Asbestos, a difficult problem
>for our world.  The group that started right here on this site, is now
>completing work on their first production cell.  They did as I had
>suggested and bought a BN 200, for $2,700, to proof out the concept, and
>launched right in to the work on a interim level unit, not a full plant
>design. They are taking the steps, and doing the work needed to manufacture
>their own design, specific to the needs of their application.
>

Fantastic!

>I am hoping to foster another group in the Southwestern United States, to
>work on the Knudtson Power cell technology, once again started right here
>in this site. A very simple technology well outlined here, but can it run
>house?  A neighborhood?  A city?  Although the technology has been shown to

>work, a full scale unit has never been built.  And, there again to what
>scale? House or city or factory or space station? The neat thing that you
>might be a bit more appreciative of, is that you were part of that process,
>you were there and involved in some of the first talks of this project.
>
This has been an area that I have been struggling to get involved in (for
personal use) and George Wiseman has been teasing me with this or that for
the last 2 years. He does not feel BG is the way to go because of its low
heat output etc. In my opinion the coversion to electrocity could solve
that issue??

I would love to try to build "Knudtson Power cell" if I could get more info.

>This Grant proposal, zero "G" Hydroxy welder, is just one more in a long
>line of research projects that I am presently working on and would hope to
>further along.  I guess that is what I call "planting" the seeds of change.
>
You certainly planted a big one here! Will try to help as much as I can.

>Please continue to offer other areas where you see problems in this idea.
>I read your posts and they point out many things that I need to be
>conscious of if I am to be successful in this or many other such efforts.
>

Will do 

Regards,

Chris Gupta


>All the best
>
>TR Knudtson 
>
>
>At 12:46 AM 10/31/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>At 05:57 PM 10/29/98 -0800, trknute@earthlink.net wrote:
>>[snip]
>>>could focus and share information.
>>>
>>
>>TR Knudtson, 
>>
>>If you want to share the info why are you beating around the bush?  Just
>>put it in the public domain! Frankly I am getting a bit tired of these
>>teases that people in the know and/or with hidden agendas keep badgering
>>various lists with....
>>
>>>The thing that I am wanting to offer to those who would involve themselves
>>>directly in the research, is complete disclosure of all reports and
>>>documentation. This may be different than the news group.
>>>
>>>If this project goes on to develop a collective product, a final granting
>>>of patent or such, I would see it as a possession of the group, and
>>>ownership then be of an international distribution, to each contributing
>>>member.
>>
>>Come on now how are you going to coordinate all this? Typical wishful
>>thinking, totalling impractical...
>>
>>>In bringing Brown to the US in 90, I had hoped that the us would not act
>>>in this way, much to my disappointment it was the case.  Even after
>>>demonstrating the technology for the Lawrence Livermore labs, The excited
>>>scientists left our meeting with the greatest enthusiasm claiming this the
>>>most important discovery since the atomic age, There quote not mine, only

>>>to turn sour over night, phoning later to explain that they had not much
>>>extra time to spend on such things.
>>
>>What would you expect these people to do?? Go around praising the inventors
>>on how great the invention is and then build and market it for them to
>>boot?  Have you inventors never heard of the NIH (Not Invented Here)
>>syndrome? For them to be as enthusiastic as the inventors it would also
>>have to be their idea at least partially - its called buy in... sorry life
>>is just that way... 
>>
>>I agree with Dwenbert...
>>
>>"They all seem to be bumbling around like Newman, not getting
>>anything accomplished.  If these people are this inept at business, they
>>can't be so all-fired brilliant at anything else.    People skills are not
>>THAT remote from other forms of abstract reasoning."
>>
>>If only the inventors had spent half the time and money marketing their
>>invention instead of trying to convince disinterested parties something may
>>have come of it.....
>>
>>>
>>>Oh hell!,  I just want to cut down on my e-mail, and have one place for
>>>people to come to get as much as they can, in the way of starting in this
>>>technology, and free of charge.  That does not mean that we have to let out
>>>specifics on a given design that the group may be working on.
>>
>>Free of charge? not let out specifics? Either its public domain or its not.
>>Really this is just more rubbish!
>>Less malarkey please!
>>
>>>I have always been an advocate that the future of this technology does not
>>>lie in making units, but rather in the applications of this gas.
>>>
>>
>>Well stop hoarding the info. Let it out in the public domain and pls don't
>>give us all the tiresome diatribe on non disclosure agreements and how the
>>inventors have spent all their lifes on their inventions etc. and have
>>every right for a 'ransom' for their info etc. YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS
>>sorry for the catch but that's life and I can tell you 'information wants
>>to be free' and sooner or later we will have the info. So if you want to
>>make a difference do it sooner... as it may be very later.. as in scheme of
>>things (nature) time is irrelevant.
>>
>>
>>On a positive note I have learned a lot from your posts and its a real
>>pity that this is turning out be so unnecessarily complex... If we had more
>>info we all could learn/dialogue with a lot more substance and accelerate
>>this technology, While we both seem to want the same thing,  going in
>>circles is just not going to do it. Sad
>>
>>
>>Chris Gupta
>>
>>>TR Knudtson
>>> 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov  1 22:54:07 1998
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Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 02:00:03 -0500
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: "Dennis C. Lee" <atech@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Fillibuster
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Hi;

Filibuster - a member of a legislature who obstructs a bill by making long
speeches.

Huh? You must mean me? Sorry about that. I do get carried away at times. I'm
glad I looked filibuster up. This is what lawyers and politicians do isn't it?

BTW, were looking into delaying and/or encoding project posts so their not
immediately public disclosure. A similar system maybe of interest to you.
Your always welcome to participate where ever you find your interests of
course. I'll lend a hand to your Power Cell as I said. Just let me know.

Best Regards;
Dennis



At 01:57 PM 11/1/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Fillibuster
>
>TR Knudtson
>
>
>


Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov  2 05:13:03 1998
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From: bpaddock@csonline.net (Bob Paddock)
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: collapsing fields
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 07:54:12 -0500
Organization: is mostly via piles
Reply-To: bpaddock@csonline.net
Message-ID: <0taP2UQy8siC092yn@csonline.net>
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>I got this from MPG OUTLET:
>
>EMF COLLECTOR 
>Collect the wasted EMF energy from your existing motors and transformers.
>included. Instructions and schematics.
>#30-011 $29.95

Sounds like they are selling the NASA paper "Recovering
Energy From Relays".  It takes two transistors and two
diodes to reverse the polarity as the field collapses, to
send the energy back into the supply rails.

There is also the NASA paper "Recovering Energy From Gates
[of FET's]".  You put a small inductor in series with the
gate of the FET to resonate it.

These type of techniques are used where you must recover
every micro-watt of power like in a satellite system or space
probe.  Here on Earth its usually not worth the added parts
and complexity.

You can get the papers from NASA for $5 each, or from me if
I can find what pile I have them in for much less.

It always rubs me the wrong way when I see people selling
publicly available information at price gouging rates.


-- 
For information on any of the following check out my WEB site at:
                   http://www.biogate.com/bpaddock/
Chemical Free Air Conditioning/No CFC's, Chronic Pain Relief, Echofone,
Electromedicine, Electronics, Explore!, Free Energy, Full Disclosure,
KeelyNet, Matric Limited, Neurophone, Oil City PA, Philadelphia Experiment.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov  2 05:13:19 1998
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From: bpaddock@csonline.net (Bob Paddock)
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: HANS COLER - 1946 report (B.I.O.S)
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 08:03:51 -0500
Organization: is mostly via piles
Reply-To: bpaddock@csonline.net
Message-ID: <32aP2UQy8IVT092yn@csonline.net>
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>This report as discussed in this months NEXUS is available in both zip and
>html format. Most interesting... 
>
>"THE INVENTION OF HANS COLER, RELATING TO AN ALLEGED NEW SOURCE OF POWER",
>B.I.O.S. report 1946
>
>http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3752/indexe.html

The following is from the Rex Research catalog.  They sell
all kinds of papers about Interesting Stuff.  Even the
catalog it self is interesting.  Take note of the last line.
Last year there was some discusion of the "The Barkhausen
Battery" on the list here.

  Rex Research Archives
  P.O. Box 19250<BR>
  Jean, NV 89019<BR>


C6-COL Coler, H.: Stromzeuger --- Immediately after WW2, technical teams
plundered all the data they could get from Germany. Here is the declassified
British Intelligence Subcommittee Report # 1043, Item 3 l: "The Invention
of Hans Coler Relating to an Alleged New Source of Power... Coler is the
inventor of 2 devices by which it is claimed that electric energy may be
derived without a chemical or mechanical source of power. Since an interest
was taken in his inventions by the German Admiralty it was felt that an
investigation was warranted, although normally it would be considered that
such a claim could only be fraudulent.. Accordingly, Coler was visited and
interrogated. He proved to be cooperative and willing to disclose all details
of his devices, and consented to build and put into operation a small model
of the so-called 'Magnetstromapparat'.. With this device, consisting only
of permanent magnets, copper coils and condensers in a static arrangement
he showed that he could obtain a tension of 450 millivolts for several hours..
One model was said to have worked for 3 months locked in a room in the Norwegian
Legation in Berlin.. The greatest tension obtained was 12 volts. Coler also
discussed another device called the 'Stromzeuger' from which he claimed that
with an input of a few watts from a dry battery an output of 6 kw could be
obtained indefinitely.. In 1945 the apparatus was destroyed by a bomb." The
investigators concluded: "Coler was an honest experimenter and not a fraud.
The result obtained was genuine." The Barkhausen Effect is believed to be
the source of the energy. Includes: historical notes, construction details,
tests, schematics, c... $8

-- 
For information on any of the following check out my WEB site at:
                   http://www.biogate.com/bpaddock/
Chemical Free Air Conditioning/No CFC's, Chronic Pain Relief, Echofone,
Electromedicine, Electronics, Explore!, Free Energy, Full Disclosure,
KeelyNet, Matric Limited, Neurophone, Oil City PA, Philadelphia Experiment.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov  2 06:44:32 1998
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Subject: Re: Fillibuster
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Dear Dennis,

Actually no Dennis I had no one person in mind when I spoke of filibuster,
but for those here that keep long running records of this user list, it
might be a good thing for them to review those lists with this concept in
mind.

I for a long time have noticed that as issues of import have come to the
forefront in discussions here, that this list often erupts into "off topic"
forays that are unproductive. The last such events centered around topics
of God, and Governmental eavesdropping.  Rage wars are hard to administrate
at best here, but I feel we would all agree, are counterproductive. 

There are many issues that can be raised to this level, that flow from
common speech.  Our personal, social, religious, cultural, or political
sensitivities may differ greatly, but are often the source of these tirades.

Example:

I have often been asked about what electrolyte to use, and am forthcoming
with my preference of KOH,  potassium hydroxide.  This choice has been made
from hours of research in these areas.  I also know that KOH is most
preferred in natural metabolic functioning's  of living organisms.  I might
then go on to state that, if it is good enough for God, it is just fine for
me to use also. No harm is truly meant by the last statement, but it could
be easily enough for others to be launched into a long thread of discussion
as to the existence of such a deity, or whether  science is a spiritual
pursuit, or not.

Another time where I see a similar tactic used on the net, is in the
placing of core "hot words" in the first paragraph of each web posting.
Many web search engines review only the first bit of each document.  If you
place "Hot Words" in that lead paragraph, you can monopolize the prime
hits, on many search results.

So the term Filibuster may apply in many ways to the functioning of the web.

Believe me, I am just as susceptible to becoming involved in these "flame
wars" as the other man.  I just see them as truly unfortunate.  In one of
the last episodes here on "Free Energy", we lost some very good
contributors, who just became fed up with having to sort through so many
unrelated posts.

It may just be my imagination, but these seem to follow a trend. What I can
say is, that they often result in the obscuring of ongoing discussions of
value, and if to that end, then they are very effective.

All the best

TR Knudtson



At 02:00 AM 11/2/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi;
>
>Filibuster - a member of a legislature who obstructs a bill by making long
>speeches.
>
>Huh? You must mean me? Sorry about that. I do get carried away at times. I'm
>glad I looked filibuster up. This is what lawyers and politicians do isn't
it?
>
>BTW, were looking into delaying and/or encoding project posts so their not
>immediately public disclosure. A similar system maybe of interest to you.
>Your always welcome to participate where ever you find your interests of
>course. I'll lend a hand to your Power Cell as I said. Just let me know.
>
>Best Regards;
>Dennis
>
>
>
>At 01:57 PM 11/1/98 -0800, you wrote:
>>Fillibuster
>>
>>TR Knudtson
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>Tall Ships
>http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html
>
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov  2 08:03:50 1998
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Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 10:11:37 -0500 (EDT)
From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS@ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
Subject: Re: CIA? This is for you!
In-reply-to: <1.5.4.32.19981101214806.00e4e7b0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
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Dennis,

<snip>
>I'm still not convinced a PWD engine can travel around the world with one
>tank of gas nonstop and maintaining 5000 MPH.

Who said anything about one tank of gas?

Mid air refueling has been around for a long time.

In fact one of the sightings was while it was in a midair refueling formation 
with a couple of FB-111's and a KC-135 tanker (at least that's how I remember 
what the documentary identified them as).

Sometimes you seem to miss the obvious simple explanations, because your
fixated on finding an implausible but exotic & titillating one.

I'm sorry, but you hurt your credibility when you go on these off topic rants.

Even if a tenth of your accusations are true, your not going to accomplish 
anything by venting in this forum.  Even if you came up with absolute proof, 
why would anybody believe it. (Shades of 'Peter & the Wolf' in here somewhere's)

Instead of working yourself into a frenzy, and dithering away your time & 
energies on things you can't change, why not concentrate on what you can 
accomplish.  Like getting these free, or at least cheap, energy technologies 
working for the common good.  Which by the way would be a little more on topic.

Sorry,

Bill

 ________________________________________________________/////___________
|  William E. Briggs Jr.  |                               ~ ~            |
| webriggs@concentric.net |                              -@-@-           |
|-------------------------|---------------------------ooo--U--ooo--------|
|    XLN Systems, Inc.    |Ideas presented are my own hair brained ideas,|
|      Columbus, OH       |and not the hair brained ideas of my employer.|
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov  2 08:08:33 1998
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Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 08:03:05 -0800
From: pat weissleader <lizardhaven@zippnet.net>
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you want the rife list rife-list@eskimo.com.

--
Patricia Weissleader at Lizardhaven Ranch
'where the critter meets the glitter'


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov  2 08:17:12 1998
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the government is flying something at area 51-i have been there many
times and it is amazing what you see.  the thing is that they are flying
that for show-there is n reason they have to fly where anyone can drive
up and watch. so what are they doing we can't see? i believe it is sound
information that the various aircraft we hav such as the stealth have
different versions and some have several power sources on one
vehicle-they take off as expected and later out of view of anyone who
could comment, exercise alternate capabilities.
it is safe to assume that any technology you can imagine, they have
functioning.  there are things you see out there that you don't share
with anyone but others who have seen them, because americans never
believe anything they have not been given permission to believe, and the
chance of being thought a lunatic or liar is 100%.--
Patricia Weissleader at Lizardhaven Ranch
'where the critter meets the glitter'


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov  2 08:35:52 1998
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i don't understand any of the technical stuff-but i do know that many of
the most promising fields of study are in places that don't work by
current accepted thinking.  there was a man who invented something that
amazed people at a tesla society event and they asked how he could have
thought of it. he said that it was because he didn't have a proper
technical education so he didn't know it couldn't work so he went ahead
and built it.
spend the $30-and if all you find out is the flaw in the reasoning, it
is worth $30 to know.  or you can become a free energy convention
groupie and get to see lots of stuff fail to live up to the claims and a
few things do what is claimed, almost for free.
--
Patricia Weissleader at Lizardhaven Ranch
'where the critter meets the glitter'


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov  2 09:02:51 1998
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From: "Dennis C. Lee" <atech@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: CIA? This is for you!
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Hi;


At 10:11 AM 11/2/98 -0500, you wrote:

>Even if a tenth of your accusations are true, your not going to accomplish 
>anything by venting in this forum.  Even if you came up with absolute proof, 
>why would anybody believe it. (Shades of 'Peter & the Wolf' in here
somewhere's)

That's why I get overdone. Does that sound smart to you? Here's absolute
proof, dah. It will mean global destuction if you don't ask the government
to make the necessary technology available. I don't care! I'll risk certain
destruction in the future if it means I don't have to cooperate with you
now. Galactic stupidity?


>Instead of working yourself into a frenzy, and dithering away your time & 
>energies on things you can't change,

Dithering time away is reinventing this technology again. Why doesn't the
government help. Why place a high value on preserving stubbornness?

Logic indicates that if I can't change it we all die. With those choices,
what is the intellegent choice?

why not concentrate on what you can 
>accomplish.  Like getting these free, or at least cheap, energy technologies 
>working for the common good.  Which by the way would be a little more on topic.

What are the chances by then that we will have more than a few ?-days
?-weeks ?-months, to enjoy it? If the Earth tips, the common good is over.
The common good is to prevent that. What do you think?

If you were killed by global catastrophy because you couldn't get anyone to
listen, how would you feel?

Suppose events and weather slowly gets worse as predicted, when would you
think it's time to do something?

How can you speak so assured there is no icecap problem?


Dennis


Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov  2 09:34:40 1998
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From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS@ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
Subject: RE: collapsing fields
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Patrick,

Back in the 'good old days' this used to be called hysteresis (sp?).

As the field collapses it cuts the wires, inducing current, generating a 
magnetic field, but not as strong as before.
But since the power is still off, it starts to collapse again, cutting the 
wires, inducing current, generating a magnetic field.

Again & again & again, until like a fly wheel it eventually winds down.

Lest you think this is free energy, remember it had to be pumped up to it's full 
size when it was initially turned on.

Yes you can tap it, as a matter of fact, back in the 'good old days' when 
electric utility companies were less able to give us clean power (as in spikes, 
sags & surges) we used to depend on this to help stabilize the output of our 
power supplies.  Nowadays (is that a word?), we have these wimpy light weight 
switching power supplies that you have to get a surge suppresser for.

Line conditioners and UPS's still take advantage of this.

Bill

 ________________________________________________________/////___________
|  William E. Briggs Jr.  |                               ~ ~            |
| webriggs@concentric.net |                              -@-@-           |
|-------------------------|---------------------------ooo--U--ooo--------|
|    XLN Systems, Inc.    |Ideas presented are my own hair brained ideas,|
|      Columbus, OH       |and not the hair brained ideas of my employer.|
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov  2 10:05:23 1998
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From: "Dennis C. Lee" <atech@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Fillibuster
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Hi;

At 03:45 AM 11/2/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Dear Dennis,
>
>Actually no Dennis I had no one person in mind when I spoke of filibuster,
>but for those here that keep long running records of this user list, it
>might be a good thing for them to review those lists with this concept in
>mind.

I still think it a good idea to let people know there's an icecap problem.

>I for a long time have noticed that as issues of import have come to the
>forefront in discussions here, that this list often erupts into "off topic"
>forays that are unproductive. The last such events centered around topics
>of God, and Governmental eavesdropping.  Rage wars are hard to administrate
>at best here, but I feel we would all agree, are counterproductive. 

You obviously don't believe there's a icecap problem do you.

The icecap problem is a real problem. The government has the duty to fix it.
Only free energy and antigravity will fix it. There is something wrong when
our government risks global destruction rather than admit mistakes. Do you
agree? I was just trying to send the message upstream. Some where, key
government people who make big decisions are not aware of the true situation
of the gyroscopic stability of the planet. If these people were made aware,
they might say this is ridiculous release the technology. With all due
respect, I don't see how you fuel cell is going to help the icecap problem
which may trigger for a number of reasons from 5/5/2000 on. If the
government were truely ethical, the technology would be released and the
icecap repair started.


Dennis


Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov  2 10:10:24 1998
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From: "Dennis C. Lee" <atech@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: CIA? This is for you!
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Hi;


At 08:11 AM 11/2/98 -0800, pat weissleader wrote:
>the government is flying something at area 51-i have been there many
>times and it is amazing what you see.  the thing is that they are flying
>that for show-there is n reason they have to fly where anyone can drive
>up and watch. so what are they doing we can't see? i believe it is sound
>information that the various aircraft we hav such as the stealth have
>different versions and some have several power sources on one
>vehicle-they take off as expected and later out of view of anyone who
>could comment, exercise alternate capabilities.
>it is safe to assume that any technology you can imagine, they have
>functioning.  

Do the people at Area 51 know that the icecap is on a crushed stone paste
lubricant? Just because they're way inland, the atmosphere may still brush
back to let the vacuum of space reach the surface. We could use antigravity
vehicles to lift blocks off of the South Pole icecap to reduce the
eccentricity of the ice mass relative to the Earth's axis. Let's go to the
gate and ask someone about using the equipment for the icecap?

Special disks could be made to direct magnetic fields through the crust into
the mantle to hold it in place like a thumbtack. The substance between the
crust and the mantle has megnetophoresic (sp?) properties.

there are things you see out there that you don't share
>with anyone but others who have seen them, because americans never
>believe anything they have not been given permission to believe, and the
>chance of being thought a lunatic or liar is 100%.--


Such labels seem to be a defense mechanism of the observer to maintain their
sense of continuity. A better response than lunatic or liar might be, bring
me to that spot and let me see for myself. Continuity is risked however. I
say, so what, who cares, it's no big loss. After the second or third major
paradigm shift, you get used to it.


Dennis


Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov  2 12:19:00 1998
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From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS@ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
Subject: Re: CIA? This is for you!
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Dennis,

>Suppose events and weather slowly gets worse as predicted, when would you
>think it's time to do something?

Do what Dennis?  Rant, fume, incite panic, run around like the old headless 
chicken?

>How can you speak so assured there is no icecap problem?

Maybe there is?  Maybe someone is doing something, earlier this year there was a 
story about a HUGE chunk of one of the ice caps breaking loose unexpectedly, and 
just a couple of weeks ago there was a story about another HUGE ice berg 
floating around somewhere.

But why are you so worried about the icecap, if the pole shifts due to some kind 
of gyroscopic precession, we are all dead anyways.  Each of us are moving at 
25,000 miles per day due to the earths spin, that's a little over 1000/mph.  If 
the earth suddenly starts spinning in a different direction, each of us is going 
to be slammed against the wall and turned into strawberry jelly.  Worrying about 
the icecap coming down a couple of hours later and turning that jelly into a 
strawberry daiquiri seems a little silly.

But why am I personally so calm about it?

That gets into the taboo topic of religion, and at the risk of starting another 
flame war, like the old preacher says, I read the back of the book and we win!

We have been hearing dooms-day stories for the last couple of hundred years, and 
each of these fads was backed up by then hard science.  But we are still here!

If it happens, it happens.  If not you have wasted time that could have been 
spent to better purposes.

Bill

 ________________________________________________________/////___________
|  William E. Briggs Jr.  |                               ~ ~            |
| webriggs@concentric.net |                              -@-@-           |
|-------------------------|---------------------------ooo--U--ooo--------|
|    XLN Systems, Inc.    |Ideas presented are my own hair brained ideas,|
|      Columbus, OH       |and not the hair brained ideas of my employer.|
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov  2 13:58:43 1998
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From: "Dennis C. Lee" <atech@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: CIA? This is for you!
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Hi;

At 12:35 PM 11/2/98 -0500, you wrote:

>Do what Dennis?  Rant, fume, incite panic, run around like the old headless 
>chicken?

First I'd haul all that alien technology into the light and see what we've
got. Then I'd go to London, get down on my hands and knees and beg Professor
Searl not to give up because of all the evil. I'd say let's just buy some
time by fixing this problem and I will try to show the light as to why evil
doesn't work anymore. They will smarten up, we can fix the problem.
Professor Searl please don't give up or everyone will die. Please give me
the tools to try to fix the problems.

>>How can you speak so assured there is no icecap problem?
>
>Maybe there is?  Maybe someone is doing something, earlier this year there
was a 
>story about a HUGE chunk of one of the ice caps breaking loose
unexpectedly, and 
>just a couple of weeks ago there was a story about another HUGE ice berg 
>floating around somewhere.
>
>But why are you so worried about the icecap, if the pole shifts due to some
kind 
>of gyroscopic precession, we are all dead anyways.  Each of us are moving at 
>25,000 miles per day due to the earths spin, that's a little over 1000/mph.
If 
>the earth suddenly starts spinning in a different direction, each of us is
going 
>to be slammed against the wall and turned into strawberry jelly.  Worrying
about 
>the icecap coming down a couple of hours later and turning that jelly into a 
>strawberry daiquiri seems a little silly.

We can stick inverted gravity disks to push and thumb tack the crust down.
Trimming the icecaps will help. Use the law of the square to model the
situation and fine tune theory.

>But why am I personally so calm about it?
>
>That gets into the taboo topic of religion, and at the risk of starting
another 
>flame war, like the old preacher says, I read the back of the book and we win!

Are you sure the book says to sit back enjoy the view and twiddle your
thumbs. Thumb twiddling is the old way and those ways will die.

>We have been hearing dooms-day stories for the last couple of hundred
years, and 
>each of these fads was backed up by then hard science.  But we are still here!
>
>If it happens, it happens.  If not you have wasted time that could have been 
>spent to better purposes.

I think I can help fix it. Do nothing if you want. I don't want to do
nothing. I need to try.


Dennis


Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov  2 17:08:00 1998
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>> Anyways, the way the spinning cones, discs, and spheres of plasma
reacted to
>> parameter changes led me to believe it to be a tuned effect.
>
>What tuned effect?  This 'evidence' is unclear.
> 

I may have mentioned it before on this list, but Jan Pajak of NZ conducted
levitation experiments with rotating plasma contained in a plexiglas cube.
Apparently it has been replicated by a Polish researcher. That wasn't a joke.

Very intense magnetic fields can be created, as there is no solid
conductor. The critical part was placement and angle of discharge of the HV
needles to get the vortex symmetry and eliminate turbulence. This was
carefully plotted out. He calls it the "magnetron", and provides some
evidence of it's ability to repel the Earth's natural field. 

However, with all the plasma containment research going on, one would
suspect the effect had already been widely observed, if true. Of course,
there are possibly unknown variables in the equation, such as the
rotational speed of the plasma, frequency of discharge and phasing of
multiple vortices.

Peter Nielsen

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov  2 17:57:25 1998
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i hate to say it but the people at area 51 don't let me know what they
worry about. you can't get to the gate-you are stopped from going
further about a mile before you reach it.
and while i know that there may be reason to worry about the ice, my
study of the fault lines near my huse indicates that the earth has an
intricate system of checks and balances and most likely will manag to
keep it's self reasonably stable.
i am quite sure that the toothpaste thing helps to make small
adjustments, and i am even more sure that the data available is lacking
in most of the facts needed to understand the process and what actual
danger there is. if i am going to worry about the ice, i will worry
about the melting and raising of sea levels-excpet that i need another
500 feet to make me happy anyway.
i think that a person as smart as you are when understanding what never
happens with inventions, ought to realize that demanding anything from
the government is wasted effort. conserve your resources of worry and
anxiety until a time that you can use them for effective action.
whether you are right or wrong will only be proven when there is nothing
to be gained from being right.
--
Patricia Weissleader at Lizardhaven Ranch
'where the critter meets the glitter'


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov  2 18:05:50 1998
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From: pat weissleader <lizardhaven@zippnet.net>
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professor serle is a nice old man who does not undrstand why someone
(read the government) won't come along with severl million dollars so he
can build what he is apparently able to build without that money.  and i
line him up with the people who, after the northridge earthquake whined
on tv that they ahd no power and had to go to bed when it got dark-and
why wouldn't the government come and give them light.
not one of them got their car battery and a tail light and wired it to
have light on the kitchen table-everything they needed for light was
there is they had only stopped waiting for someone else to provide for
them. dennis, i think you should be on the side to make the light in a
simple manner and let the others whine.
think small and think what you can build that will empower others to
understand they are not powerless to help themselves.
i understand none of this, and i have made my own electricity from the
sun for 9 years now.  i bet serle pays for edison.  and you?  if you
really want to irritate people have something to be smug about they
didn't do-works for me. --
Patricia Weissleader at Lizardhaven Ranch
'where the critter meets the glitter'


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov  2 18:53:58 1998
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Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 19:58:41 -0700
From: Henry Curtis <hcurtis1@ix.netcom.com>
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Hi Peter,

Could you help out with a URL for Pajak or his work?
Thanks

Henry Curtis

mindtech@nor.com.au wrote:
.......
I may have mentioned it before on this list, but Jan Pajak of NZ conducted
levitation experiments with rotating plasma contained in a plexiglas cube.
Apparently it has been replicated by a Polish researcher. That wasn't a joke.
........


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov  2 19:13:50 1998
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On Sun, 1 Nov 1998, Dennis C. Lee wrote:

> I was wondering about the public disclosure issue for our planned group
> discussions for a CF design. Is it possible to with hold public posting of
> the project communications until the coast is clear so to speak? It would be
> better to structure a relaxed environment with time constraints a low
> priority. Other than the deadlines for the ICCF conference paper of course.

These lists are public, anyone can subscribe, therefor delaying the
archives cannot change the public nature of the discussions.  It would
also run counter to the philosophy behind these lists. 

Does this sound familiar:  ?

  All information should be free.

  Mistrust authority--promote decentralization. 

  Always yield to the Hands-On Imperative

I grew up during the home computer revolution, and so I've seen what
hobbyists can do if they adopt a philosophy of freely sharing information. 
I'm not totally ignorant of science history, so I'm aware that the
enormous progress of modern science is based on one very important
principle: publication; cross-pollination which comes from the free
sharing of information.  Even inventors have an equivalent process in the
full disclosure as patents, in exchange for 17yr monopoly rights.

I look at the history of fringe-science inventions and I see a single
large barrier to all progress: secrecy.  Secrecy on the part of inventors. 
Secrecy motivated by greed, ego, and a need for absolute control.  The
government didn't suppress free energy, the inventors did it themselves by
refusing to part with any information which would allow others to verify
their discoveries.  If "men in black" ever suppressed an invention, they
were only able to do so because their victims had been hiding the
discovery away.

These lists really are intended for people who expose secrets, who act as
scientists rather than as inventors, and who want to spread ideas rather
than owning them.  If your ideas and discoveries are gifts to be shared,
then share them here.  On the other hand, if they are your private
property which requires protection, then why damage that protection by
letting the ideas become public?

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb@eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov  2 19:44:35 1998
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To: lizardhaven@zippnet.net, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: "Dennis C. Lee" <atech@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: collapsing fields
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Hi;


At 08:21 AM 11/2/98 -0800, pat weissleader wrote:

>he said that it was because he didn't have a proper
>technical education so he didn't know it couldn't work so he went ahead
>and built it. 


I am sorry but I am going to have to be the skeptic here. Do you know this
guy? I bet he had something to read and refer to, at the least. What did the
device do?

Dennis


Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov  2 22:42:05 1998
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Hi;

At 07:06 PM 11/2/98 -0800, you wrote:

>These lists really are intended for people who expose secrets, who act as
>scientists rather than as inventors, and who want to spread ideas rather
>than owning them.  If your ideas and discoveries are gifts to be shared,
>then share them here.  On the other hand, if they are your private
>property which requires protection, then why damage that protection by
>letting the ideas become public?

If original CF concept passes preliminary scrutinies and approvals:

I want to share with all that are interested to allow their input,

AND not be restricted by a one year limit.

OR, accept one year from public disclosure time limit if magic cash flow
appears at appropriate concept is proven period to buy timely and successful
outcome.

Suggestions and comments are welcome.

Regards;
Dennis

P.S.
Perhaps such an open communications system will discourage investor
involvement even if idea exceedes expected useable outputs?


Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov  3 09:13:36 1998
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Hi 
The collapsing field  is the reason that the EVGray motor worked so well. He
was getting his power from the spike of current and had the timing so that the
power was only on to make a field and collaps so he was getting 2 fields for
the prise of one to do the work less the loss in the fiction from the wire.
The collapsing emf can be used to make fields in other coils to make more work
also.



In a message dated 98-11-01 09:10:54 EST, you write:

<< 
 The loss takes several forms, such as eddy currents and so on.  Some of
 that
 lost energy i turned into heat, and it is possible to convert some of
 that waste heat into uable energy, but never all of it, as the
 collection and reconversion process will also have its own losses.
 
 Without collapsing magnetic fields, neither transformers nor motors
 would
 work at all, this is not the cause of the 'under unity problem' at all,
 after
 all, transformers do not work with DC currents even though steady DC
 current would have no collapsing field.
 
 The reason motors and transformers are under unity is due to fundemental
 symetries of nature, not the lack of some clever design feature or new
 arangement of coil and magnet.
 
 
 
  >>

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>Does this sound familiar:  ?
>
>  All information should be free.
>
>  Mistrust authority--promote decentralization. 
>
>  Always yield to the Hands-On Imperative

Yes, it is "The Hackers Ethic".  Before any one gets bent
out of shape read the book "Hackers" by Steve Levey (sp?),
that discribes the histor of the players. 

There is a book by the same name about the movie, that you
don't want.

The Media has perverted the original meaning of "Hacker". 
Remember the Media SELLS information, they are agienst 
"All information should be free".

For refrence:


  ****************************************************************************
                  >C O M P U T E R   U N D E R G R O U N D<
                                >D I G E S T<
               ***  Volume 1, Issue #1.12 (June 10, 1990)   **
  ****************************************************************************

HACKER (originally, someone who makes furniture with an axe n. 1. A person
who enjoys learning the details of programming systems and how to stretch
their capabilities, as opposed to most users who prefer to learn only the
minimum necessary.  2.  One who programs enthusiastically, or who enjoys
programming rather than just theorizing about programming.  3.  A person
capable of appreciating hack value (q.v.).  4.  A person who is good at
programming quickly.  Not everything a hacker produces is a hack.  5.  An
expert at a particular program, or one who frequently does work using it or
on it . . . . 6.  A malicious or inquisitive meddler who tries to discover
information be poking around.

Obviously, only the last, and least used, definition even remotely
approaches the term "varmit."  Unfortunately, many hackers, when approached
by law enforcement officers, will readily admit to being hackers when
questioned about it.  Don't make that mistake, varmits.

                       [From CUD119:]

  A computer programmer's attempt to help a  colleague enter a system when a
  password has  been lost or  forgotten,  de-bugging a  copyright software
  program,  or testing a system's security  are examples for which a benign
  form of hacking is both required and considered acceptable.   Nonetheless,
  this deceptive definition was successful,  for it convinced Judge Nicholas
  Bua that the prosecutor's definition was the most common, would be unlikely
  to confuse a jury,  and was not  prejudicial (See Memorandum Order in CuD
  1.16).

-- 
For information on any of the following check out my WEB site at:
                   http://www.biogate.com/bpaddock/
Chemical Free Air Conditioning/No CFC's, Chronic Pain Relief, Echofone,
Electromedicine, Electronics, Explore!, Free Energy, Full Disclosure,
KeelyNet, Matric Limited, Neurophone, Oil City PA, Philadelphia Experiment.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov  3 10:50:58 1998
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From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS@ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
Subject: Connect the Dots
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All,

Thread #1 - A recent discussion about anomalous heat loss in OU devices.
            (Inductive device)

Thread #2 - Zaev's generator working off of ambient heat.  Along with a quick             
            test by Stefan Hartmann were he heated a charged ceramic capacitor             
            and saw an increase in the stored energy.
            (Capacitive device)

Thread #3 - A device soon to be available from Jade Mountain that converts
 	    higher temperature heat into electricity. Thermo-Electric Generator
            (Thermocouple device)

Thread #4 - Someone said something about converting mechanical energy into             
            electricity by moving the plates of a charged capacitor apart from             
            each other.
            (Capacitive device)

Connecting the threads (dots)

Maybe what we need is a capacitor designed to expand and contract the distance 
between the plates as a function of temperature.  So that it acts like a 
reciprocating generator driven by heat.

Cycle steps:
1 - Precharge the capacitor.
2 - Let heat expand the distance between the plates, generating electricity.
3 - Discharge the capacitor to carry away the precharge, generated electricity
    and the heat.
4 - The cooled capacitor contracts. Start over with step 1.

It's not OU but it is a simple heat to electricity converter.

Bill

 ________________________________________________________/////___________
|  William E. Briggs Jr.  |                               ~ ~            |
| webriggs@concentric.net |                              -@-@-           |
|-------------------------|---------------------------ooo--U--ooo--------|
|    XLN Systems, Inc.    |Ideas presented are my own hair brained ideas,|
|      Columbus, OH       |and not the hair brained ideas of my employer.|
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov  3 12:38:44 1998
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Hello all,

this is my first time posting on this listserv, though i have been subscribing for
quite awhile...

this is probably off-topic, but i was wondering if any of you have built and/or
used a Kirlian Camera.

(not sure if it falls under the "Unusual Scientific Instruments Category")

I am currently in the process of acquiring parts to build one, and i wanted to do
more research on them. do any of you have scanned pictures, useful
books/websites/listservs, or personal experience/tips?

any info would be greatly appreciated....

sorry about the off-topic(?) post,
chris loental

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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov  3 13:12:17 1998
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All,

Again lets play connect the dots.

1 - An antenna receives a signal/energy at a frequency that it is tuned to by 
being a quarter wavelength in height above it's groundplane.  A rectangular 
waveguide works the same way, the dimensions are determined by the quarter 
wavelength of the frequency you want to receive.

2 - Tom Bearden's article makes the statement that all capacitors are inherently 
OU gateways to the vacuum (ether?).  The problem is keeping the gateway open 
after discharging the initial charge.
http://www.hsv.com/writers/bearden/tommenu.htm

3 - A capacitor is basically two metal plates separated by an inert material.

4 - TR Knudtson has discussed making a double spiral shaped capacitor to 
increase the surface area while keeping the size down.  Thus showing that the 
capacitor could be in any three dimensional shape, as long as the plate 
separation remains constant.

5 - I remember reading a story about 15 years ago about some engineers who built 
a copy of an artifact about 3000 years old from a description in a book.  It was 
a waveguide (rectangular) shaped metal (gold) box with a bottom nested into 
another slightly larger box with the two boxes separated by an electrically 
inert material (wood).  The box was then covered by another gold wrapped wood 
lid.  After a couple of weeks they had to take the thing apart to keep it from 
killing anyone with electrical discharges.  At the time they thought it was 
soaking up static electricity, but maybe it was more than just that.  Maybe 
someone was trying to show us how to make an OU device.  Of course if I told you 
what that artifact was you might ignore the relevant facts, and just launch into 
a flame war.  Suffice it to say that anyone who touched it died, and it was 
known to through off bolts of lightening.

Bill

 ________________________________________________________/////___________
|  William E. Briggs Jr.  |                               ~ ~            |
| webriggs@concentric.net |                              -@-@-           |
|-------------------------|---------------------------ooo--U--ooo--------|
|    XLN Systems, Inc.    |Ideas presented are my own hair brained ideas,|
|      Columbus, OH       |and not the hair brained ideas of my employer.|
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov  3 13:36:31 1998
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From: tv@juno.com
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 13:29:49 -0800
Subject: Re: 3000 yr old OU device
Message-ID: <19981103.132950.2966.0.tv@juno.com>
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The Ark of the Covenant !

See, no flame wars !


___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov  3 14:28:49 1998
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Subject: Re: 3000 yr old OU device
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TV,

>See, no flame wars !

It's early yet =;-)

By the way what is TV short for anyways?

Bill

 ________________________________________________________/////___________
|  William E. Briggs Jr.  |                             ( ~ ~ )          |
| webriggs@concentric.net |                             &-@-@-&          |
|-------------------------|---------------------------ooo--U--ooo--------|
|    XLN Systems, Inc.    |Ideas presented are my own hair brained ideas,|
|      Columbus, OH       |and not the hair brained ideas of my employer.|
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov  3 14:37:32 1998
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Subject: Re: CIA? This is for you!
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Pat Leader of the Wise,

I don't know why Dennis is blaming it on the CIA for, isn't the Immigration and 
Naturalization Service in charge of illegal aliens.

Perhaps the gray's get a gray card, and the blues get a blue one.

And since the Dept. of Energy is in charge of keeping track of what goes on with 
the USA's electric power grid.  They would be the ones to hide these secret 
electrical generating plants, where they have all the OU devices locked up.  

They sell off the electricity to finance all these black ops, in black 
helicopters, flown by men in black.

Bill

 ________________________________________________________/////___________
|  William E. Briggs Jr.  |                             ( ~ ~ )          |
| webriggs@concentric.net |                             &-@-@-&          |
|-------------------------|---------------------------ooo--U--ooo--------|
|    XLN Systems, Inc.    |Ideas presented are my own hair brained ideas,|
|      Columbus, OH       |and not the hair brained ideas of my employer.|
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov  3 15:13:34 1998
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From: UNIR2B1@aol.com
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Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 18:06:01 EST
To: BB1050@aol.com
Cc: johnhoffman@webtv.NET, huntfish1@juno.com, cotaylor@cellone.net,
        PetMagic@aol.com, biotron@pacbell.net, hauserrolfe@bigfoot.com,
        vortex-l@eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, rtoler@cland.net,
        goldbug@worldaccessnet.com, cturner@npwt.net, markland@rockisland.com,
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Subject: Cisterns...
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Howdy Again, Bro. Bill--

Cisterns are probably the most expedient method for collecting water; i.e.,
via gutters along the roof of existing structures.  Do you still recommend
your friend's (brother's?) food-grade plastic 55 gal. drums @ $35?  Have you
found another source?

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov  3 15:47:31 1998
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Subject: Re: 3000 yr old OU device
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Bill,


        I know exactly what you are talking about. And they still haven't
found that artifact, either:) But I'm sure that it worked exactly as the
recent experimenters
project did. I've been working on a project similar to that. If you get that
book called 'The fantastic Inventions of Nikola Tesla', there is a lot of
good info on Tesla building similar devices. 
        I believe that if a cap bank was built the right way, neg wire ran
to a ground, and positive ran up a wire in the air, and the output was fed
through a  simple circuit to convert it to usable energy, without
interrupting the flow into (ie. Beardens material) the cap, it would produce
usable energy. 
        Matter of fact, there is a company on the net, (I lost the url
though) that sells a device you attach to a wire and a ground and it puts
out 12 volts continuous. I think it sells for $29 but I'm not sure..If
anyone remembers where its at, I'd like to get the info again. My two cents...


Dave E

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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Pajak, oscillatory chamber
In-Reply-To: <363E7160.465077AB@ix.netcom.com>
References: <1.5.4.32.19981101214806.00e4e7b0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
 <3.0.1.32.19981103104354.0071cf34@pophost.nor.com.au>
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>Could you help out with a URL for Pajak or his work?
>
>Henry Curtis

I don't know about a URL. Last address I have is: Dr. Jan Pajak, Otago
University, PO Box 56, Dunedin NZ.

I do have a copy of his paper "Advanced Magnetic Propulsion Systems (UFO's,
Magnocraft, Free Energy Devices)". IMO the best documented of his works.
It's 46 pages, with illustrations, equations, etc., reduced to two pages
per A4 sheet. 

It is copyright, but allows for distribution for education purposes at
cost. If the author cannot be contacted, I would be willing to airmail a
copy to anyone who sends me a $5 US note (cash). No checks please. 

My previous post on this subject was from memory. When I dug it out, I saw
there was alot more to it, i.e. the chamber operates in oscillatory mode,
and can be combined so that flux interactions produce levitation and energy
gain.

Peter Nieslen

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	 <3.0.1.32.19981103104354.0071cf34@pophost.nor.com.au> <3.0.1.32.19981104101127.0073383c@pophost.nor.com.au>
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Thanks, Peter this helps.  One more thing--The address to which you would like the $5 sent
will get on its way.

Appreciate your help.

Henry  Curtis

mindtech@nor.com.au wrote:

> >Could you help out with a URL for Pajak or his work?
> >
> >Henry Curtis
>
> I don't know about a URL. Last address I have is: Dr. Jan Pajak, Otago
> University, PO Box 56, Dunedin NZ.
>
> I do have a copy of his paper "Advanced Magnetic Propulsion Systems (UFO's,
> Magnocraft, Free Energy Devices)". IMO the best documented of his works.
> It's 46 pages, with illustrations, equations, etc., reduced to two pages
> per A4 sheet.
>
> It is copyright, but allows for distribution for education purposes at
> cost. If the author cannot be contacted, I would be willing to airmail a
> copy to anyone who sends me a $5 US note (cash). No checks please.
>
> My previous post on this subject was from memory. When I dug it out, I saw
> there was alot more to it, i.e. the chamber operates in oscillatory mode,
> and can be combined so that flux interactions produce levitation and energy
> gain.
>
> Peter Nieslen



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov  3 18:14:04 1998
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From: "Marcelo Puhl" <mark@plug-in.com.br>
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Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 00:00:55 -2
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Subject: QuickField 4.1 available for free !
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Dear QuickField user!

New version of finite-element software for electromagnetic, heat
transfer and stress analysis simulations is available!

The latest Students' QuickField 4.1 you may obtain: 

>From our homepage 
http://www.tor.ru/quickfield/downloads/latest/QFld41.zip 

Or download a copy from the nearest to you SimTel mirror: 

US (primary)         
ftp://ftp.simtel.net/pub/simtelnet/win95/engin/qfld41.zip US,

California/1    
ftp://ftp.cdrom.com/pub/simtelnet/win95/engin/qfld41.zip US,

California/2    
ftp://ftp.digital.com/pub/micro/pc/simtelnet/win95/engin/qfld41.zip

California/3    
ftp://ftp.lib.sonoma.edu/pub/simtelnet/win95/engin/qfld41.zip 

Finland                  
ftp://ftp.funet.fi/mirrors/ftp.simtel.net/pub/simtelnet/win95/engin/qfld41.zip 

and many other SimTel mirrors.

Till November 30 we offer special discounts for Professional versions!
Full pricelist is available upon request.

QuickField 4.1 is our second version designed for Windows 95/NT. We
have fixed some errors and drawbacks of our previous release, and
added a lot of new features. You are welcome to read full description
of new features in the Help of  Student's version.

Here is a brief list of them:  

                        General features 

Command line for running QuickField in unattended mode, specifying the
list of problems to be solved one by one; The problem tree, as you
normally see it to the left of QuickField  window, now incorporates
data label trees. You can directly edit material properties and
boundary conditions in this view as well as select geometric objects
by clicking corresponding la b els. Changing problem s coordinate
system (Cartesian or polar) or length units now is immediately
reflected in the Model and Postprocessor views. Creation of a new
problem is now done through a wizard, allowing you to choose correct
problem parameters while the problem is created. 

                              Model Editor  

The Smart Grid mode changes grid size according to your zooming 
actions.  Creating new vertices and edges with mouse is now more
convenient and safe.  You can select geometric objects by their
labels.  

                           Postprocessor   

Now draws field pictures faster.  
New postprocessor window inherits previous window s setting, including
the contour.  The state of the window can be saved to a file for
restoring in  latter sessions (just as it was in version 3.4). You can
switch between color and gray-scale pictures to prepare  reports for
color or monochrome printers. Docking window for local values:  
  - highlights the quantity shown with the color map;  
  - allows in-place editing of point s of interest coordinates
  (Cartesian or polar);  - has its own context menu, providing fast
  access to several Controls in Field Picture dialog.  
Docking legend window:  
  - allows to manipulate the fill range;  
  - provides selection of curves shown in X-Y plot;  
  - has its own context menu;  
  - can be copied to Clipboard.  
Force and torque integrals can now be calculated for stress analysis
problem.  Tables can be saved as text files.  A special table
containing field quantities calculated in nodes of rectangular grid
can be saved to file in text or binary format. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------
QuickField Support Team 
Tera Analysis Europe - TOR Coop
http://www.tor.ru/quickfield 
e-mail support@tor.spb.su
 fax +7 (812)110-1334 phone +7 (812) 316-1965
----------------------------------------------------------------------

---
Marcelo Puhl
mark@plug-in.com.br

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov  3 21:04:36 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 22:59:22 -0600 (CST)
From: Zack Widup <w9sz@prairienet.org>
Subject: Re: 3000 yr old OU device
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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On Tue, 3 Nov 1998 tv@juno.com wrote:

> The Ark of the Covenant !
> 
> See, no flame wars !
> 

Perhaps it was the earth's first orgone accumulator?

It is supposedly being kept by a group in Ethiopia these days.

Zack

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov  3 21:24:08 1998
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Subject: Re: 3000 yr old OU device
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Bill -

I've done some casual experiments recently on capacitor self charging.
Though the effect is small and strongly temperature dependent, the things
clearly do gain energy that's not only "free", but which I don't think is
fully explained conventionally. Unfortunately we're talking microamps at
millivolts from few thousand uF caps. Huge caps might get you milliamps at
millivolts. It's almost nothing. Without some way to dramatically increase
these results, there's nothing practical to it. It might just be very high
and extremely low frequency RF that's penetrating the shielding. But T.T.
Brown did some cap experiments that were both very well shielded and held
at constant temperature, and he still got the charge curves typical for
these experiments.

Capacitor shape has always intrigued me as a possible route to explore.
Pyramids, golden sections and other geometric shapes and ratios of possible
significance might be tried. I've heard of that modern AOTC replication you
described; it's a weird-science/urban legend. I seriously doubt the claims.
I can't completely rule it out though, and I don't know of any such
replication as a documented fact. But if we make the leap that it is some
mysterious energy that charges ordinary caps, then it's not that much
further to suppose that this energy might have some strong orientation or
resonance potential that a special shape, ratio, or dimension might take
advantage of. The name Pat Flanagan comes to mind in this regard. Didn't he
look into specially shaped caps?

If you build something, please post!

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov  3 21:44:33 1998
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IMO these forums are not for self serving
investors/governments/corporations they have their own,  frequently legally
criminal, resources with expense no object! Rather many Internet forums are
there to serve true scientists. Secrecy/greed/control are the reason why we
still don't have any support for anything that could make the us
self-sufficient. True competition can only occur when the playing field is
level... That means all have the info. I can only hope that the Internet
(once we reduce the bickering) provides us the opportunity to even out this
very skewed world view. 

As beautifully put by Bill Beaty:

"I look at the history of fringe-science inventions and I see a single
large barrier to all progress: secrecy.  Secrecy on the part of inventors. 
Secrecy motivated by greed, ego, and a need for absolute control.  The
government didn't suppress free energy, the inventors did it themselves by
refusing to part with any information which would allow others to verify
their discoveries.  If "men in black" ever suppressed an invention, they
were only able to do so because their victims had been hiding the
discovery away."

Chris Gupta

At 01:41 AM 11/3/98 -0500, you wrote:

[snip]
>Suggestions and comments are welcome.
>
>Regards;
>Dennis
>
>P.S.
>Perhaps such an open communications system will discourage investor
>involvement even if idea exceedes expected useable outputs?
>
>
>Tall Ships
>http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html
> 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov  3 21:52:21 1998
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Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 21:44:34 -0800
From: TK <tnk@spu.edu>
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If you really want to try out the Ark of the Covenant experiments (which
I would probably not recommend, just in case you do get struck by
lightning from the box), the instructions for building it are listed
right in the Bible. If nothing else, read them and maybe imagine what it
would look like.

TK


Rick Monteverde wrote:
> 
> Bill -
> 
> I've done some casual experiments recently on capacitor self charging.
> Though the effect is small and strongly temperature dependent, the things
> clearly do gain energy that's not only "free", but which I don't think is
> fully explained conventionally. Unfortunately we're talking microamps at
> millivolts from few thousand uF caps. Huge caps might get you milliamps at
> millivolts. It's almost nothing. Without some way to dramatically increase
> these results, there's nothing practical to it. It might just be very high
> and extremely low frequency RF that's penetrating the shielding. But T.T.
> Brown did some cap experiments that were both very well shielded and held
> at constant temperature, and he still got the charge curves typical for
> these experiments.
> 
> Capacitor shape has always intrigued me as a possible route to explore.
> Pyramids, golden sections and other geometric shapes and ratios of possible
> significance might be tried. I've heard of that modern AOTC replication you
> described; it's a weird-science/urban legend. I seriously doubt the claims.
> I can't completely rule it out though, and I don't know of any such
> replication as a documented fact. But if we make the leap that it is some
> mysterious energy that charges ordinary caps, then it's not that much
> further to suppose that this energy might have some strong orientation or
> resonance potential that a special shape, ratio, or dimension might take
> advantage of. The name Pat Flanagan comes to mind in this regard. Didn't he
> look into specially shaped caps?
> 
> If you build something, please post!
> 
> - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov  3 22:53:28 1998
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-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis C. Lee <atech@ix.netcom.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Monday, November 02, 1998 11:36 PM
Subject: Re: Secrecy on these discussion groups


>Hi;
>
>At 07:06 PM 11/2/98 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>These lists really are intended for people who expose secrets, who act as
>>scientists rather than as inventors, and who want to spread ideas rather
>>than owning them.  If your ideas and discoveries are gifts to be shared,
>>then share them here.  On the other hand, if they are your private
>>property which requires protection, then why damage that protection by
>>letting the ideas become public?
>
>If original CF concept passes preliminary scrutinies and approvals:
>
>I want to share with all that are interested to allow their input,
>
>AND not be restricted by a one year limit.
>
>OR, accept one year from public disclosure time limit if magic cash flow
>appears at appropriate concept is proven period to buy timely and
successful
>outcome.
>
>Suggestions and comments are welcome.
>
>Regards;
>Dennis
>
>P.S.
>Perhaps such an open communications system will discourage investor
>involvement even if idea exceedes expected useable outputs?
>
>
>Tall Ships
>http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html
>
>How do I disconnect from this news group, my server says that I am nit
connected to one

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov  3 23:51:49 1998
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From: "Bear Harne" <mikeharne@truelink.net>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Pajak, oscillatory chamber
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 23:48:38 -0500
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Please email me your postal address.  Is that USD or Australian dollars?
Thanks,
Bear
-----Original Message-----
From: mindtech@nor.com.au <mindtech@nor.com.au>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 6:57 PM
Subject: Pajak, oscillatory chamber


>>Could you help out with a URL for Pajak or his work?
>>
>>Henry Curtis
>
>I don't know about a URL. Last address I have is: Dr. Jan Pajak, Otago
>University, PO Box 56, Dunedin NZ.
>
>I do have a copy of his paper "Advanced Magnetic Propulsion Systems (UFO's,
>Magnocraft, Free Energy Devices)". IMO the best documented of his works.
>It's 46 pages, with illustrations, equations, etc., reduced to two pages
>per A4 sheet.
>
>It is copyright, but allows for distribution for education purposes at
>cost. If the author cannot be contacted, I would be willing to airmail a
>copy to anyone who sends me a $5 US note (cash). No checks please.
>
>My previous post on this subject was from memory. When I dug it out, I saw
>there was alot more to it, i.e. the chamber operates in oscillatory mode,
>and can be combined so that flux interactions produce levitation and energy
>gain.
>
>Peter Nieslen
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Nov  4 01:32:51 1998
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From: Thomas Spellman <lightspring@jps.net>
Subject: Re: 3000 yr old OU device
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>5 - I remember reading a story about 15 years ago about some engineers who
>built
>a copy of an artifact about 3000 years old from a description in a book.
>It was
>a waveguide (rectangular) shaped metal (gold) box with a bottom nested into
>another slightly larger box with the two boxes separated by an electrically
>inert material (wood).  The box was then covered by another gold wrapped wood
>lid.  After a couple of weeks they had to take the thing apart to keep it
>from
>killing anyone with electrical discharges.  At the time they thought it was
>soaking up static electricity, but maybe it was more than just that.  Maybe
>someone was trying to show us how to make an OU device.  Of course if I
>told you
>what that artifact was you might ignore the relevant facts, and just
>launch into
>a flame war.  Suffice it to say that anyone who touched it died, and it was
>known to through off bolts of lightening.

The Arc of the Covenant.  (You know, I'm sure, that there's a stone box in
the king's chamber of the Giza Pyramid that fits the same dimensions.)  I
read a while ago an internet essay (from a search - I don't have the URL)
in which the author made his case that the Giza pyramid was a huge power
plant, splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen - the water was brought up
from the lower chamber to the boz in the king's chamber.


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Nov  4 07:24:51 1998
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Message-ID: <36406FD4.EAB26BB1@zippnet.net>
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 07:16:36 -0800
From: pat weissleader <lizardhaven@zippnet.net>
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the pyramid is a machine, and it takes sound energy and concentrates
it-the shape of the grang gallery is to fit some kind of cups for
resonance...i am sure i am explaining it badly but the talk i heard in
laughlin was very clear and i understood it-it took in account and
explained everything that has been a mystery.  the talk was by
christopher dunn. he has a book out and i am sure that you technical
types will find it is exact and specific in the technology.

--
Patricia Weissleader at Lizardhaven Ranch
'where the critter meets the glitter'


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Nov  4 09:48:49 1998
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Message-ID: <19981104174734.8346.rocketmail@send204.yahoomail.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 09:47:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Joe De Brouse <bodyvibe@yahoo.com>
Subject: mortal oscillation rate
To: energy list <freenrg-L@eskimo.com>
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     ANYONE OUT THERE EXPERIMENTING WITH RIFE TECHNOLOGY----SQUARE
--ODD HARMONICS? 
==

  BE WELL,  JOE
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Nov  4 10:11:21 1998
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From: UNIR2B1@aol.com
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Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 13:05:26 EST
To: lizardhaven@zippnet.net
Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, PetMagic@aol.com,
        trknute@earthlink.net
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In a message dated 98-11-04 10:26:12 EST, you write:

>
>in rereading you rmessage about the lee system-brown's gas (i think they
>got the term hydroxy to get his name off it) the gasses are monatomic, H
>and O, not H2.

Thanks.  It would be interesting to confirm that a 2:1 ratio of H to O2
molecules produced by water electrolysis is equal to Brown's gas.  I
personally witnessed Dennis Lee demonstrate that when it's ignited it
IMplodes, creating a vacuum because of the smaller volume of water (1:1500th,
if it's analogous to steam).

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Nov  4 10:56:29 1998
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From: trknute@earthlink.net
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Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 22:19:37 -0800
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Rife technology
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It has been a number of years since I have done much study on the subject
of Rife technology but as I remember he was doing comparative study as to
the effects of resonant frequencies on the cellular wall structures of
cancerous tumors.  In his work it was key that the optical device, The Rife
Microscope, allowed for the visual inspection of these effects on biopsies
of both healthy tissue and malignant tissue side by side.  By careful
adjustment of the frequencies he was able to generate specific oscillations
that irritated the cellular wall of both, then by adjusting the oscillation
he could individually identify the proper settings of his transduction
device, so that biopsy by biopsy and patient by patient the right frequency
was determined.  Then the body would recognize the damage to the malignant
cells and attack them thus removing them from the body via the natural
immune system.

To me this is not much different than the work that has been done to
destroy kidney stones, inside the body using high frequency sound waves.
The concern I have, in the work being done by others on these devices is
that they seem to be only focusing on the transduction device.

Clearly it must be easily understood that this was just one side of the
science, in that also the determination of the precise frequency needed to
damage the bad cells, while leaving the good cells untouched.  The specific
outcome that I would fear, is the broad spectrum hit or miss approach to
inducing general frequencies into the body could result in the injury to
healthy living tissue.

It was my understanding that he emphatically stated, that each cellular
sample need be carefully tested individually, in that even with similar
cancers, the needed effects could change patient to patient.  I am
satisfied that Rife was clearly proceeding with great caution, and
individually testing each patient, before administering treatment.

My question would arise as to what device these present day scientists are
using to optically examine the effects on individual tissue samples to
derive the right frequencies of treatment.  Clearly rife stated that the
good cells could also be adversely effected.

Although the electron microscopes of today can obtain those resolutions,
but to do so would mean that the test material would be unavailable for
direct induction tests, as an electron microscope requires the observed
material be subjected to a pure vacuum.

For those of you who are more versed in this subject, could you please set
my mind at ease on these issues with a return post of simple explanation? 

It would seem to me that Rife's true contribution was the optical devise
and not the transducer, and with out it the science of deferential testing
could not be possible.

All the best

TR Knudtson


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From: trknute@earthlink.net
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Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 23:04:57 -0800
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Hydroxy/brown' gas
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The naming of Brown's gas.

The use of the term "Hydroxy" is not an effort to subvert Yull Brown and
his efforts.  Hydroxy is just the chemical name for this material.  For the
purpose of patent identification as a newly discovered state of mater Brown
simply chose to call this discovery Browns gas.  From the date of those
patents, he began to refer to the hydroxyl by the name granted under the
patent, Brown's gas.

I worked directly with Brown for many years and in our discussions the two
terms were used interchangeably.  When talking of his discovery, he would
use the term Brown's gas, when referring to the chemical makeup of the
material he used the term Hydroxy.

In my posts here I often use both for purposes of clarity, and in all of my
permanent web posts I use both terminology's.  It would serve no value for
anyone to discount the work of Brown by attempting to cloud the past of
this technology, as it is more widely known by the more popular name of
Brown's gas.

Additionally, there was a company making these units in the US, in the
early 80s in Texas.  The Company chose the name Hydroxy USA.  Brown
attempted to engage them in litigation not for the correct use of the
chemical term for this gas, but that the design of their production
machines infringed on his patents.

The correct chemical term for this gas is Hydroxy.  The existence of the
hydroxyl reaction is well known in science. If you review any premier text
of physiology, you will find this reaction mentioned over and over as the
unspecified source of bond force energy that is responsible for most
biologic functioning, as well as the linking found in the very structure of
DNA.

Brown knew clearly, that what he had isolated in his simple welder, would
some day be the core technology in a great many sciences.  The production
and distribution of the welder was nothing more that a toy in comparison to
what this technology will reveal to science.
Here on a bench top is the basic energy of all major chemical bonds in
nature.  Hydroxyl bonds!

To break the connection between Browns gas and Hydroxyl reactions would be
a greater disservice to science than any minor confusion that may arise.
Brown had isolated the very mechanism of life, let alone a system that
binds metals.

TR Knudtson


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Nov  4 11:59:33 1998
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Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 15:01:32 -0500
To: lizardhaven@zippnet.net
From: "Dennis C. Lee" <atech@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: CIA? This is for you!
Cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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Hi;


At 06:00 PM 11/2/98 -0800, you wrote:
>professor serle is a nice old man who does not undrstand why someone
>(read the government) won't come along with severl million dollars so he
>can build what he is apparently able to build without that money.  and i
>line him up with the people who, after the northridge earthquake whined
>on tv that they ahd no power and had to go to bed when it got dark-and
>why wouldn't the government come and give them light.

Well this possible icecap solution is a little different. Antigravity and
Free Energy are required for a task of this magnitude. This icecap problem
is more or less caused by  A/G & F/E not being implemented yet. If we had
this technology, we wouldn't have the problem. Now that we have the problem,
they won't release the technology, even if it means the end of civilization
as we know it. Even though they are the ones who caused the whole mess as it
is. A perfect example of negative feedback evil that eventually destroys
everything and everyone.

>not one of them got their car battery and a tail light and wired it to
>have light on the kitchen table-everything they needed for light was
>there is they had only stopped waiting for someone else to provide for
>them. dennis, i think you should be on the side to make the light in a
>simple manner and let the others whine.

Actually, a concept for CF occurred. We're talking about it some and will
hopefully try putting a cell together. Are you on Billb's Vortex-L page? 

>think small and think what you can build that will empower others to
>understand they are not powerless to help themselves.
>i understand none of this, and i have made my own electricity from the
>sun for 9 years now.  i bet serle pays for edison.  and you?  if you
>really want to irritate people have something to be smug about they
>didn't do-works for me. --

Well, it would be better if people sent emails to their local politician.
What if it said something like:

Dear Senator___________


Albert Einstein studied the math involving the South Pole Icecap. He
concluded that there will be sudden climate and pole axis changes due to the
size and weight of the South Pole icecap. It is of most absolute and
greatest importance to evaluate and optimize the shape of the South Pole
icecap area so that the risk of slippage in the near future is greatly
reduced. Free energy and antigravity technology are required for a task of
this magnitude. At the minimum, we must be able to levitate one cubic mile
blocks of ice, strategically cut out of the icecaps, and move them to needed
areas (deserts etc.) or levitate them in a straight ascent into earth orbit.
Preventing global catastrophy is a good reason to use this technology.
Please look into this matter.



Regards;
Dennis






Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Nov  4 12:33:11 1998
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Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 12:26:49 -0800
From: pat weissleader <lizardhaven@zippnet.net>
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if water is H2+O, then the equivalent in brown's gas is H+H+O. i don;t
know why the volume would be different. i am not sure who dennis lee
borrowed the implosion idea from but it was likely sonny ward since the
tesla symposium that sonny demonstrated it, the lee bus-everyone-to
someplace smake oil event did not have any implosion stiff, but lee
started using it soon after.
all i ever saw lee do at his events was show other people's stuff-and as
hard as i tried i could never find any demonstration of the device he
sold all the dealerships for.  perhaps lee has some great stuff but h
has failed to make the evidenc available for me to confirm it.
sonny wards demonstration was showing how the device created an
implosion, not that the implosion created the gas.  i could be wrong but
i thought the gas ran the device that demonstrated the implosion.
i is possible lee has some other wonderful technology i don't know about
and i am confusing things.
--
Patricia Weissleader at Lizardhaven Ranch
'where the critter meets the glitter'


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Nov  4 12:42:29 1998
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thanks TR Knudtson, for clarifying that brown's gas and hydroxy are the
same thing. i just stick to terms i am sure of so i don't mak the
mistake of assuming something and later being wrong.  i don't mean to be
accusing anyone of any nefarious intent.  and i feel fortunate to have
someone on this line intimately involved with the historical facts and
people so that we do get a clear picture of how things developed. as a
left over hippy from the 60's and a free energy conference groupie who
doesn't understand the technical stuff, i make some contact with the
same people but i got to bring them water and change the transparancies
for the overhed projector. i also got some guy from texas to help me
really understand what a condenser does.
--
Patricia Weissleader at Lizardhaven Ranch
'where the critter meets the glitter'


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Nov  4 13:05:23 1998
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Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 12:56:23 -0800
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there is an active group working successfuly with rife technology today.
the microscope rife invented was a miraculous instrument and has not
been duplicated, though other microscopes are being used. the frequency
is produced by a tube and recent versions of the bare/rife unit
manufactured by tunny, has a programable function to set various
frequencies in order for set times.
the people involved in rife work today are trying to stay alive and are
working to understand how to use the machines and figure out what is
happening.  some people on the rife list remain alive long after they
were expected to die, other die in the middle of a thread.
there are other, less expensive devices that some of us use (and i don't
have any dread disease, just a drive to learn) the EMEM2 is one no one
can get since the guy who builds them doesn't, it uses a tube to
broadcast a resonating frequency. this is what i hope to get and see if
i can prevent and cure parvo and other animal diseases.
this week i successfully halted parvo in a litter of pups using a $80
zapper, a contact device that puts out resonating square waves in the
range of most parasites and bacteria. i was astounded at the results i
got.  i have got some good results personally from the zapper relating
to energy and alertness.
i have healed a long standing painful nerve injury in my thumb with a
beck brain tuner, and i routinely use his magnetic pulser to treat the
remainder of serious dental infections and lymph glands, etc.
the medical electric devices are farhter along than many alternate stuff
and availalbe in reliable units of reasonable price. the proof of them
is in the results, although much documentation is available.
if you make too many smart remarks you get thrown off the rife line and
have to come here.
--
Patricia Weissleader at Lizardhaven Ranch
'where the critter meets the glitter'


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Nov  4 13:48:35 1998
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Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 16:47:15 -0500
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: "Dennis C. Lee" <atech@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: CIA? This is for you!
Resent-Message-ID: <"bT11Y2.0.VA6.1dCGs"@mx1>
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Hi;

I'm not blaming anyone. I heard that the CIA is listening in so I thought
they should know the situation. Since this affects them, they should send
the message upstream and try to help the matter.


Dennis


At 05:15 PM 11/3/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Pat Leader of the Wise,
>
>I don't know why Dennis is blaming it on the CIA for, isn't the Immigration
and 
>Naturalization Service in charge of illegal aliens.
>
>Perhaps the gray's get a gray card, and the blues get a blue one.
>
>And since the Dept. of Energy is in charge of keeping track of what goes on
with 
>the USA's electric power grid.  They would be the ones to hide these secret 
>electrical generating plants, where they have all the OU devices locked up.  
>
>They sell off the electricity to finance all these black ops, in black 
>helicopters, flown by men in black.


Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Nov  4 14:07:15 1998
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Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 17:08:52 -0500
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: "Dennis C. Lee" <atech@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Rife technology - They might have got me.
Resent-Message-ID: <"SuPYY1.0.qQ.PxCGs"@mx1>
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Hi;

I unwisely drank coffee that a very strange client had access to.

Dennis


At 10:19 PM 11/3/98 -0800, you wrote:
>It has been a number of years since I have done much study on the subject
>of Rife technology but as I remember he was doing comparative study as to
>the effects of resonant frequencies on the cellular wall structures of
>cancerous tumors.  In his work it was key that the optical device, The Rife
>Microscope, allowed for the visual inspection of these effects on biopsies
>of both healthy tissue and malignant tissue side by side.  By careful
>adjustment of the frequencies he was able to generate specific oscillations
>that irritated the cellular wall of both, then by adjusting the oscillation
>he could individually identify the proper settings of his transduction
>device, so that biopsy by biopsy and patient by patient the right frequency
>was determined.  Then the body would recognize the damage to the malignant
>cells and attack them thus removing them from the body via the natural
>immune system.
>
>To me this is not much different than the work that has been done to
>destroy kidney stones, inside the body using high frequency sound waves.
>The concern I have, in the work being done by others on these devices is
>that they seem to be only focusing on the transduction device.
>
>Clearly it must be easily understood that this was just one side of the
>science, in that also the determination of the precise frequency needed to
>damage the bad cells, while leaving the good cells untouched.  The specific
>outcome that I would fear, is the broad spectrum hit or miss approach to
>inducing general frequencies into the body could result in the injury to
>healthy living tissue.
>
>It was my understanding that he emphatically stated, that each cellular
>sample need be carefully tested individually, in that even with similar
>cancers, the needed effects could change patient to patient.  I am
>satisfied that Rife was clearly proceeding with great caution, and
>individually testing each patient, before administering treatment.
>
>My question would arise as to what device these present day scientists are
>using to optically examine the effects on individual tissue samples to
>derive the right frequencies of treatment.  Clearly rife stated that the
>good cells could also be adversely effected.
>
>Although the electron microscopes of today can obtain those resolutions,
>but to do so would mean that the test material would be unavailable for
>direct induction tests, as an electron microscope requires the observed
>material be subjected to a pure vacuum.
>
>For those of you who are more versed in this subject, could you please set
>my mind at ease on these issues with a return post of simple explanation? 
>
>It would seem to me that Rife's true contribution was the optical devise
>and not the transducer, and with out it the science of deferential testing
>could not be possible.
>
>All the best
>
>TR Knudtson
>
>
>
>


Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Nov  4 17:44:44 1998
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From: Richard Austin <richarda@icx.net>
Subject: Re: Rife technology
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>My question would arise as to what device these present day scientists are
>using to optically examine the effects on individual tissue samples to
>derive the right frequencies of treatment.  Clearly rife stated that the
>good cells could also be adversely effected.
>

Dark field microscopes. They do a wonderful job. You can see the target cells explode within 5-15 minutes at the resonant frequency.

Dr. James Bare has the details on the microscopes. His web site was posted earlier, rifetech...


Richard Austin  --  email: richarda@icx.net  --  radio: KG7SU
Institute for Planetary Renewal http://user.icx.net/~richarda
(newly updated web site)


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Nov  4 20:24:20 1998
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Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 23:30:00 -0500
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: "Dennis C. Lee" <atech@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: 3000 yr old OU device
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Hi


At 02:55 PM 11/3/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Suffice it to say that anyone who touched it died, and it was 
>known to through off bolts of lightening.


Those who did not have evil act related black energy on their life force
energy pattern supposedly did not have this problem.

Dennis


Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Nov  4 22:22:01 1998
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From: mbgupta@julian.uwo.ca
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Subject: Re: mortal oscillation rate
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Yes square waves see my note other note for more info.

Chris Gupta

At 09:47 AM 11/4/98 -0800, you wrote:
>     
>
>
>     ANYONE OUT THERE EXPERIMENTING WITH RIFE TECHNOLOGY----SQUARE
>--ODD HARMONICS? 
>==
>
>  BE WELL,  JOE
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Nov  4 22:22:02 1998
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Subject: Re: Rife technology
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<html>
At 10:19 PM 11/3/98 -0800, you wrote:<br>
&gt;It has been a number of years since I have done much study on the
subject<br>
&gt;of Rife technology but as I remember he was doing comparative study
as to<br>
&gt;the effects of resonant frequencies on the cellular wall structures
of<br>
&gt;cancerous tumors.=A0 In his work it was key that the optical device,
The Rife<br>
&gt;Microscope, allowed for the visual inspection of these effects on
biopsies<br>
&gt;of both healthy tissue and malignant tissue side by side.=A0 By
careful<br>
&gt;adjustment of the frequencies he was able to generate specific
oscillations<br>
&gt;that irritated the cellular wall of both, then by adjusting the
oscillation<br>
&gt;he could individually identify the proper settings of his
transduction<br>
&gt;device, so that biopsy by biopsy and patient by patient the right
frequency<br>
&gt;was determined. <br>
<br>
Rife actually devitalized the cancer virus (which he named BX) All this
was determined under the rife microscope. The word devitalize, needs to
be explained, this does not mean death necessarily, but also biochemical
impairment, a loss of activity and growth, and Pleomorphic conversion to
an alternative part of the organisms life cycle. Which if not aware could
actually be verse than the orignal although this would have happened in
any case.<br>
<br>
A must reed book:<br>
<br>
The Cancer Cure That Worked!<br>
The Rife Report<br>
50 Years Of Suppression<br>
Copyright Barry Lynes 1987<br>
<br>
See end of post for more info.<br>
<br>
&gt; Then the body would recognize the damage to the malignant<br>
&gt;cells and attack them thus removing them from the body via the
natural<br>
&gt;immune system.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;To me this is not much different than the work that has been done
to<br>
&gt;destroy kidney stones, inside the body using high frequency sound
waves.<br>
&gt;The concern I have, in the work being done by others on these devices
is<br>
&gt;that they seem to be only focusing on the transduction device.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Clearly it must be easily understood that this was just one side of
the<br>
&gt;science, in that also the determination of the precise frequency
needed to<br>
&gt;damage the bad cells, while leaving the good cells untouched.=A0 The
specific<br>
&gt;outcome that I would fear, is the broad spectrum hit or miss approach
to<br>
&gt;inducing general frequencies into the body could result in the injury
to<br>
&gt;healthy living tissue.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;It was my understanding that he emphatically stated, that each
cellular<br>
&gt;sample need be carefully tested individually, in that even with
similar<br>
&gt;cancers, the needed effects could change patient to patient.=A0 I
am<br>
&gt;satisfied that Rife was clearly proceeding with great caution,
and<br>
&gt;individually testing each patient, before administering
treatment.<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
Since the brain/body is a very high Q system (that means it can
selectively pick the <br>
relevant frequencies form a given larger range)&nbsp; pulses or multiple
frequencies are<br>
frequently used for medical applications and are remarkably fast and
successful.<br>
<br>
&gt;My question would arise as to what device these present day
scientists are<br>
&gt;using to optically examine the effects on individual tissue samples
to<br>
&gt;derive the right frequencies of treatment.=A0 Clearly rife stated that
the<br>
&gt;good cells could also be adversely effected.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Although the electron microscopes of today can obtain those
resolutions,<br>
&gt;but to do so would mean that the test material would be unavailable
for<br>
&gt;direct induction tests, as an electron microscope requires the
observed<br>
&gt;material be subjected to a pure vacuum.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;For those of you who are more versed in this subject, could you
please set<br>
&gt;my mind at ease on these issues with a return post of simple
explanation? <br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
&quot;Micro organism destruction can be see with a dark field
illumination.<br>
This method of illumination produces higher resolution and truer color
renditions than standard<br>
bright field microscopy. Some organisms just die, apparently from some
sort of metabolic disruption. Another organism shows the effects of
internal self digestion apparently from lysosome destruction and<br>
release of various digestive enzymes. Most organisms just &quot;blow
up&quot; and then disintegrate into<br>
extremely small particulate matter. A VHS tape is available in both NTSC
(Northern Americas'<br>
TV i.e. Canada, US, and Mexico) system format, and European PAL formats
only! South American<br>
PAL and Asian SECAM are not available. A variety of types of destruction
of the micro organisms is shown on the video.&quot; <br>
<br>
&gt;It would seem to me that Rife's true contribution was the optical
devise<br>
&gt;and not the transducer, and with out it the science of deferential
testing<br>
&gt;could not be possible.<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
Absolutely true this microscope was a major threat to RCA and the like of
the then emerging electron microscopes and they fought tooth and nail to
discredit it. It seems they won big time as it is not even mentioned at
the worlds biggest museum of microscopes in Washington!<br>
<br>
For information on how to build and see a 1.9 meg video etc see:<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.rt66.com/~rifetech"=
 eudora=3D"autourl">http://www.rt66.com/~rifetech</a>/<br>
<br>
&quot;This machine Dr Bare developed, produces effects and results that
when judged against the<br>
current health care practices appear somewhat unbelievable. There are
presently in excess of<br>
1500 of my devices in use worldwide. Present construction rate of the
device exceeds 4 a day.<br>
Although the preceding statements of this web page may seem to be gross
exaggeration, in<br>
reality the statements are severe understatements. For more specifics,
join the rife-list. A<br>
couple of hundred owners of devices are presently on the rife-list which
can be reached from<br>
the link to Horizon Technologies at the bottom of the page.&quot;
Mentioned in the above URL.<br>
<br>
&quot;Actual construction time is about four hours including some parts
chasing. Most of the parts are<br>
available with only a phone call, and once acquired, just connect
together.&quot;<br>
<br>
Chris Gupta<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt;All the best<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;TR Knudtson<br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
<br>
Here is a brief description of the book mentioned above:<br>
<br>
The Cancer Cure That Worked!<br>
The Rife Report<br>
50 Years Of Suppression<br>
Copyright Barry Lynes 1987<br>
ISBN: 0-919951-30-9<br>
<br>
This book is published in Canada by:<br>
Marcus Books<br>
P.O. Box 327<br>
Queensville, Ontario, Canada<br>
L0G 1R0<br>
PHONE: 905-478-2201 OR 416-478-2201<br>
FAX: 905-478-8338 OR 416-478-8338<br>
(At some point the area code changed and I don't know which is
correct.)<br>
<br>
This book can also be purchased from:<br>
Health Action Network Society<br>
#202 - 5262 Rumble Street<br>
Burnaby, BC, Canada<br>
V5J 2B6<br>
PHONE: 604-435-0512<br>
TOLL FREE ORDER LINE: 888-432-4267 (I don't know if this works in the
US)<br>
FAX: 604-435-1561<br>
WWW:
<a href=3D"http://www.hans.org/"=
 eudora=3D"autourl">http://www.hans.org</a><br>
EMAIL: sales@hans.org<br>
<br>
Contents<br>
--------<br>
<br>
<font face=3D"Courier, Courier">The People Who Made This Book 1<br>
Foreward 3<br>
<br>
Chapter 1: The Cure for Cancer 13<br>
Chapter 2: Bacteria and Virus 17<br>
Chapter 3: Medicine in America 27<br>
Chapter 4: The Man Who Found the Cure for Cancer 33<br>
Chapter 5: The 1920s 37<br>
Chapter 6: The Early 1930s 41<br>
Chapter 7: &quot;BX&quot; - The Virus of Cancer 49<br>
Chapter 8: Forward Motion: 1933-1934 53<br>
Chapter 9: The Cancer Cure Works! 59<br>
Chapter 10: 1935: Climbing A Mountain 67<br>
Chapter 11: 1936: &quot;Astounding&quot; Clinic Results 75<br>
Chapter 12: 1937: Money Woes and Delays 81<br>
Chapter 13: 1938: Beam Ray 87<br>
Chapter 14: 1939: The Storm Breaks 91<br>
Chapter 15: The Microscope and the Frequency<br>
Instrument 101<br>
Chapter 16: 1946-1986: Rife's Theory Gains<br>
Acceptance 109<br>
Chapter 17: The Victims 121<br>
Chapter 18: Cancer and AIDS 123<br>
Chapter 19: How the Legal System Was Corrupted to<br>
Surpress Rife's Cancer Cure 127<br>
<br>
Selected Bibliography 137<br>
Appendices <br>
<br>
</font></html>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Nov  4 22:33:07 1998
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From: mbgupta@julian.uwo.ca
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Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 00:52:40 -0500
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Hydroxy/brown' gas
Cc: KeelyNet@DallasTexas.net
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For a good overview note by TR I found, while searching for the Knudson
Fuel Cell but to no avail, non the less I found the note useful, at the
following URL:


http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/freenrg/hydroxy.html

Chris Gupta
 

At 11:04 PM 11/3/98 -0800, you wrote:
>The naming of Brown's gas.
>
>The use of the term "Hydroxy" is not an effort to subvert Yull Brown and
>his efforts.  Hydroxy is just the chemical name for this material.  For the
>purpose of patent identification as a newly discovered state of mater Brown
>simply chose to call this discovery Browns gas.  From the date of those
>patents, he began to refer to the hydroxyl by the name granted under the
>patent, Brown's gas.
>
>I worked directly with Brown for many years and in our discussions the two
>terms were used interchangeably.  When talking of his discovery, he would
>use the term Brown's gas, when referring to the chemical makeup of the
>material he used the term Hydroxy.
>
>In my posts here I often use both for purposes of clarity, and in all of my
>permanent web posts I use both terminology's.  It would serve no value for
>anyone to discount the work of Brown by attempting to cloud the past of
>this technology, as it is more widely known by the more popular name of
>Brown's gas.
>
>Additionally, there was a company making these units in the US, in the
>early 80s in Texas.  The Company chose the name Hydroxy USA.  Brown
>attempted to engage them in litigation not for the correct use of the
>chemical term for this gas, but that the design of their production
>machines infringed on his patents.
>
>The correct chemical term for this gas is Hydroxy.  The existence of the
>hydroxyl reaction is well known in science. If you review any premier text
>of physiology, you will find this reaction mentioned over and over as the
>unspecified source of bond force energy that is responsible for most
>biologic functioning, as well as the linking found in the very structure of
>DNA.
>
>Brown knew clearly, that what he had isolated in his simple welder, would
>some day be the core technology in a great many sciences.  The production
>and distribution of the welder was nothing more that a toy in comparison to
>what this technology will reveal to science.
>Here on a bench top is the basic energy of all major chemical bonds in
>nature.  Hydroxyl bonds!
>
>To break the connection between Browns gas and Hydroxyl reactions would be
>a greater disservice to science than any minor confusion that may arise.
>Brown had isolated the very mechanism of life, let alone a system that
>binds metals.
>
>TR Knudtson
> 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Nov  5 01:11:58 1998
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From: dtmiller@nevia.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: mortal oscillation rate
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 09:11:18 GMT
Organization: Miller and Associates
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Hi guys,

On Thu, 05 Nov 1998 00:39:05 -0500, you wrote:

>Yes square waves see my note other note for more info.
>
>Chris Gupta

Why are you looking at Rife stuff, when the data from Hulda Clark
seems to be what you want.  I've been using a homemade 'Zapper' for
almost two years.  It's brought a disabling sinus condition under
control (I can't say it cured it, because I don't know if I'd get a
recurrence if I stopped using the Zapper).  

It's based on direct electrical connection to the body (I use 12
volts) with square wave pulses.  Good square waves, of course, contain
a wide range of harmonics to 'hit' the kill frequencies of virii,
bacteria and other parasites.

BTW, a simple Zapper takes about an hour to build and about $20 in
(mostly mechanical) parts.

 -- Dean -- from Duh Moines  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Nov  5 08:48:42 1998
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From: UNIR2B1@aol.com
Message-ID: <bfef4ea9.3641d59b@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:43:07 EST
To: PetMagic@aol.com
Cc: lizardhaven@zippnet.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com,
        trknute@earthlink.net
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In a message dated 98-11-04 14:36:15 EST, you write:


<<whether that's exothermic or not is what they are fighting about. Most
peopel believe it to be exothermic - so after a while the piston gets to hot
for water to form and you got nothin' - But it is just fine for occasional use
as vacuum pump.
Peter >>

Using the steam expansion anaology from elementary school--1:1500, I
think--let's say one tank of water could be hydrolyzed to fill 1500 tanks full
of 100% hydroxy.  The contents of each tank could then be ignited with a peizo
spark across internal tank electrodes, creating vaccum for *stored* work
energy.  The vacuum itself could drive a piston device temporarily, the
hydrolysis having been already done, with no thermal exchange involved.  Solar
power-->electrolysis-->hydroxy + spark-->vacuum-->mechanical work--and that's
just for applications best suited for vacuum--not to mention that sealing the
hydrolysis tank could (using the analogy) enclose 15 X volume of *+ pressure*
for storing mechanical energy from solar, etc. for the intermittent use like
driving a well pump.  ...?

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Nov  5 09:38:00 1998
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From: UNIR2B1@aol.com
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Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:33:52 EST
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--not to mention that sealing the
>hydrolysis tank could (using the analogy) enclose 15 X volume of *+ pressure*
>for storing mechanical energy from solar, etc. for the intermittent use like
>driving a well pump.  ...

[should read 1500 X volume of *+ pressure*...]

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Nov  5 11:43:50 1998
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From: HLafonte@aol.com
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Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 14:29:12 EST
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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Site has been updated with new drawings and basic operational description.    
Basic Principle Of Operation:
The principle of operation is based on the hard ferrite holding it's
magnetized state and as it is moved into the area of the fixed magnet it
changes politary and the collapsing magnetic field induces a current into the
coil. The flux produced buy the collapse opposes the fixed magnet, but also
runs thru the intermediate soft steel that is between it and the fixed magnet.
This flux causes a repulsion force to change to an attraction force as in the
"BIG Y" design of mine (see drawing on site). The moving soft ferrite that is
just above or below the hard ferrite is always in the attraction mode and end
result is that the rotating assembly goes to the fixed magnet with more or at
least the same force as is needed to move away from the fixed magnet. During
this time electrical power is produced at the coil. 
This is a combination of the technology of Bertil Werjefelt's "magnetic
battery" (see Stefan Hartman's web page for papers on this technolgy) and my
"BIG Y" design.
Please feel free to email any questions.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte 
<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/HLafonte/lafonteresearchsite1web.html">
HLafonte's Home Page</A> or, 
http://members.aol.com/HLafonte/lafonteresearchsite1web.html

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Nov  5 12:28:06 1998
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Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 14:28:42 -0600
From: "Jerry W. Decker" <jdecker@keelynet.com>
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And of course never built, just another 'look at me now' post and
another email to delete, never saying it HAS been built and IS working
as opposed to the clear statement that the 'design' is purely
THEORETICAL or HYPOTHETICAL.
-- 
           Jerry Wayne Decker  /   jdecker@keelynet.com
         http://keelynet.com   /  "From an Art to a Science"
      Voice : (214) 324-8741   /   FAX :  (214) 324-3501
   KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Nov  5 12:46:02 1998
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Jerry W. Decker wrote:
> 
> And of course never built, just another 'look at me now' post and
> another email to delete, never saying it HAS been built and IS working
> as opposed to the clear statement that the 'design' is purely
> THEORETICAL or HYPOTHETICAL.

The pot calls the kettle black?

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Nov  5 14:30:59 1998
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From: HLafonte@aol.com
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Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 17:17:06 EST
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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Testing is being done as time and money permit, but it would be best to
consider all designs on my site as theory only. I would like to thank those
who have offered their positive comments and suggestions over time about the
site and or designs and the one or two negative comments out of a few hundred
positive comments were to be expected.
Thanks, 
Butch LaFonte

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Nov  5 15:08:36 1998
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From: "Dennis C. Lee" <atech@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Site update with text and drawings (Butch)
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Touche'!

At 03:30 PM 11/5/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Jerry W. Decker wrote:
>> 
>> And of course never built, just another 'look at me now' post and
>> another email to delete, never saying it HAS been built and IS working
>> as opposed to the clear statement that the 'design' is purely
>> THEORETICAL or HYPOTHETICAL.
>
>The pot calls the kettle black?
>
>
>


Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

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From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS@ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
Subject: Loophole in the Laws of Science
To: freenrg-l <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
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All,

OK guys & gals, especially those of you who have access to all those standard 
formulas and efficiency statistics on different generation systems.

Consider the following system.

1 - Through electrolysis generate Hydrogen & Oxygen for a given amount of power 
consumed, we'll call it "C".

2 - Feed the oxygen only into a standard engine/generator, the more efficient 
the better.  The oxygen should increase the efficiency by a certain amount,     
we'll call this gain "G1".

3 - Run a pipeline up a mountain and vent the hydrogen into the pipeline.  At 
some point in the pipeline have a turbine driven by the flow of rising     
hydrogen, this turbine in turn drives a generator for an additional energy         
return we'll call "G2".

4 - Burn the gas using the oxygen in the air at the top of the mountain in 
another standard engine/generator.  This energy gain we will call "G3".

5 - Run the water generated in step 4 down another pipeline to the bottom of the 
mountain.  At the bottom we have another turbine to turn the momentum of the     
water into yet more energy, call it "G4".

6 - According to TR Knudtson we could extract some additional Ionic energy from 
this flow of water.  If we can we will call it "G5?".

So that the amount of power consumed "C" returns "G1+G2+G3+G4+G5?".

It could be expressed as: (G1+G2+G3+G4+G5?) - C = X

Would X be positive or negative?

OK, thou keepers of formulas & efficiency statistics, how many watts can be 
generated at each step.  For the sake of discussion we will say that "C" is one 
watt of power consumed.

Bill

 ________________________________________________________/////___________
|  William E. Briggs Jr.  |                             ( ~ ~ )          |
| webriggs@concentric.net |                             &-@-@-&          |
|-------------------------|---------------------------ooo--U--ooo--------|
|    XLN Systems, Inc.    |Ideas presented are my own hair brained ideas,|
|      Columbus, OH       |and not the hair brained ideas of my employer.|
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Nov  5 15:43:43 1998
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Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 15:07:32 -0600
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Jerry W. Decker wrote:
> 
> And of course never built, just another 'look at me now' post and
> another email to delete, never saying it HAS been built and IS working
> as opposed to the clear statement that the 'design' is purely
> THEORETICAL or HYPOTHETICAL.

It wrote;
>> The pot calls the kettle black?

Trolls from spooks, nevermore.  How bout the book that 'never was'? 
First one to respond, the mama spider on freenrg...ready to be squashed.
-- 
           Jerry Wayne Decker  /   jdecker@keelynet.com
         http://keelynet.com   /  "From an Art to a Science"
      Voice : (214) 324-8741   /   FAX :  (214) 324-3501
   KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Nov  5 16:16:38 1998
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Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 18:43:14 -0500 (EDT)
From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS@ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
Subject: Re: 3000 yr old OU device
In-reply-to: <1.5.4.32.19981105043000.00e673a8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
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Dennis,

>At 02:55 PM 11/3/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>Suffice it to say that anyone who touched it died, and it was 
>>known to through off bolts of lightening.

>Those who did not have evil act related black energy on their life force
>energy pattern supposedly did not have this problem.

>Dennis

Actually one of those to get fried was one of the good guys.

They carried this thing around between to long wooden poles on each side.

While moving the thing, someone stumbled and this thing started to tip.  Some 
guy walking along beside it instinctively put his hand out to steady it and he 
got zapped.

Bill

 ________________________________________________________/////___________
|  William E. Briggs Jr.  |                              (~ ~)           |
| webriggs@concentric.net |                             &-@-@-&          |
|-------------------------|---------------------------ooo--U--ooo--------|
|    XLN Systems, Inc.    |Ideas presented are my own hair brained ideas,|
|      Columbus, OH       |and not the hair brained ideas of my employer.|
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Nov  5 16:20:27 1998
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From: UNIR2B1@aol.com
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Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 19:00:34 EST
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In a message dated 98-11-05 18:11:28 EST, you write:

>Subj:	 Loophole in the Laws of Science
>Date:	98-11-05 18:11:28 EST
>From:	MH2_BRIGGS@ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov (Bill Briggs 614-752-0199)
>Reply-to:	freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>To:	freenrg-l@eskimo.com (freenrg-l)
>
>All,
>
>OK guys & gals, especially those of you who have access to all those standard
>
>formulas and efficiency statistics on different generation systems.
>
>Consider the following system.
>
>1 - Through electrolysis generate Hydrogen & Oxygen for a given amount of
>power 
>consumed, we'll call it "C".
>
>2 - Feed the oxygen only into a standard engine/generator, the more efficient
>
>the better.  The oxygen should increase the efficiency by a certain amount,
>
>we'll call this gain "G1".
>
>3 - Run a pipeline up a mountain and vent the hydrogen into the pipeline.  At
>
>some point in the pipeline have a turbine driven by the flow of rising     
>hydrogen, this turbine in turn drives a generator for an additional energy
>
>return we'll call "G2".
>
>4 - Burn the gas using the oxygen in the air at the top of the mountain in 
>another standard engine/generator.  This energy gain we will call "G3".
>
>5 - Run the water generated in step 4 down another pipeline to the bottom of
>the 
>mountain.  At the bottom we have another turbine to turn the momentum of the
>
>water into yet more energy, call it "G4".
>
>6 - According to TR Knudtson we could extract some additional Ionic energy
>from 
>this flow of water.  If we can we will call it "G5?".
>
>So that the amount of power consumed "C" returns "G1+G2+G3+G4+G5?".
>
>It could be expressed as: (G1+G2+G3+G4+G5?) - C = X
>
>Would X be positive or negative?
>
>OK, thou keepers of formulas & efficiency statistics, how many watts can be 
>generated at each step.  For the sake of discussion we will say that "C" is
>one 
>watt of power consumed.
>
>Bill

...interesting that you're combining the interaction of the hydroxy byproducts
with *gravity*.  This gravity-harvesting might explain the putative,
additional energy total! 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Nov  5 19:27:35 1998
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From: mbgupta@julian.uwo.ca
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To: KeelyNet@DallasTexas.net, freenrg-l@eskimo.com,
        Fred Walter <fredw@mks.com>, lori moore <lem56104@bayou.uh.edu>,
        "Kurush K Mistry" <kmistry@execulink.com>, Harry.Willems@sympatico.ca
Subject: ZPE patent
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Well, who says you can't patent these type of things? This is most
interesting somewhat akin to Don Smith's stuff. Wish there was more data on
type of dielectric used etc. There is some math which needs to be studied
when I get around to it, maybe that will provide a clue on the generalities.


http://www.patents.ibm.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/5590031


What do you think? 

Chris Gupta

===========================================================================
SYSTEM FOR CONVERTING ELECTROMAGNETIC RADIATION ENERGY TO ELECTRICAL ENERGY 

U.S. Patent
                 5,590,031 

  SUMMARY
  BACKGROUND OF THE INVENTION 
  The invention relates generally to conversion of electromagnetic
radiation energy
  to electrical energy, and, more particularly, to conversion of high
frequency
  bandwidths of the spectrum of a type of radiation known as zero point
  electromagnetic radiation to electrical energy. 
  The existence of zero point electromagnetic radiation was discovered in
1958 by
  the Dutch physicist M. J. Sparnaay. Mr. Sparnaay continued the experiments
  carried out by Hendrik B. G. Casimir in 1948 which showed the existence of a
  force between two uncharged parallel plates which arose from electromagnetic
  radiation surrounding the plates in a vacuum. Mr. Sparnaay discovered
that the
  forces acting on the plates arose from not only thermal radiation but
also from
  another type of radiation now known as classical electromagnetic zero point
  radiation. Mr. Sparnaay determined that not only did the zero point
  electromagnetic radiation exist in a vacuum but also that it persisted
even at a
  temperature of absolute zero. Because it exists in a vacuum, zero point
radiation
  is homogeneous and isotropic as well as ubiquitous. In addition, since
zero point
  radiation is also invariant with respect to Lorentz transformation, the zero
  point radiation spectrum has the characteristic that the intensity of the
  radiation at any frequency is proportional to the cube of that frequency.
  Consequently, the intensity of the radiation increases without limit as the
  frequency increases resulting in an infinite energy density for the
radiation
  spectrum. With the introduction of the zero point radiation into the
classical
  electron theory, a vacuum at a temperature of absolute zero is no longer
  considered empty of all electromagnetic fields. Instead, the vacuum is now
  considered as filled with randomly fluctuating fields having the zero point
  radiation spectrum. The special characteristics of the zero point
radiation which
  are that it has a virtually infinite energy density and that it is
ubiquitous
  (even present in outer space) make it very desirable as an energy source.
  However, because high energy densities exist at very high radiation
frequencies
  and because conventional methods are only able to convert or extract energy
  effectively or efficiently only at lower frequencies at which zero point
  radiation has relatively low energy densities, effectively tapping this
energy
  source has been believed to be unavailable using conventional techniques for

  converting electromagnetic energy to electrical or other forms of easily
useable
  energy. Consequently, zero point electromagnetic radiation energy which may
  potentially be used to power interplanetary craft as well as provide for
  society's other needs has remained unharnessed. 
  There are many types of prior art systems which use a plurality of
antennas to
  receive electromagnetic radiation and provide an electrical output
therefrom. An
  example of such a prior art system is disclosed in U.S. Pat. No.
3,882,503 to
  Gamara. The Gamara system has two antenna structures which work in tandem
and
  which oscillate by means of a motor operatively attached thereto in order to
  modulate the radiation reflected from the antenna surfaces. The reflecting
  surfaces of the antennas are also separated by a distance equal to a quarter
  wavelength of the incident radiation. However, the Gamara system does not
convert
  the incident radiation to electrical current for the purpose of
converting the
  incident electromagnetic radiation to another form of readily useable
energy. In
  addition, the relatively large size of the Gamara system components make it
  unable to resonate at and modulate very high frequency radiation. 
  What is therefore needed is a system which is capable of converting high
  frequency electromagnetic radiation energy into another form of energy
which can
  be more readily used to provide power for transportation, heating,
cooling as
  well as various other needs of society. What is also needed is such a system
  which may be used to provide energy from any location on earth or in space.


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Nov  5 21:25:41 1998
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Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 00:26:29 -0500
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: "Dennis C. Lee" <atech@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: 3000 yr old OU device
Resent-Message-ID: <"dubUG2.0.zY2.CReGs"@mx1>
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Hi;

At 06:43 PM 11/5/98 -0500, you wrote:

>Actually one of those to get fried was one of the good guys.
>
>They carried this thing around between to long wooden poles on each side.
>
>While moving the thing, someone stumbled and this thing started to tip.  Some 
>guy walking along beside it instinctively put his hand out to steady it and he 
>got zapped.


What is needed is a device that can view the so called black energy
mentioned by the Tibetian philosophy Falun Gong. This study goes way back
and should not be quickly dismissed as unscientific. The 'good' guys may
have had a long ways to go if they were unaware that acts and intentions are
forms of energy that follow energy conservation laws.


Regards;
Dennis


Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Nov  5 21:27:48 1998
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From: UNIR2B1@aol.com
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Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 00:16:00 EST
To: celiag@email.com
Cc: y2k-survival@infostream.net, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, rtoler@cland.net,
        goldbug@worldaccessnet.com, cturner@npwt.net, ark@Millennium-ark.net,
        piercemark@hotmail.com, markland@rockisland.com, UFOLAWYER1@aol.com,
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In a message dated 98-10-31 19:31:27 EST, you write:

>
>My reply...
>
>This is great! I signed up for the list at the bottom of the page, but I
>would love to have more information.  I am currently a math and science
>teacher, with my contract ending in May. I also am getting a diploma in
>herbal science and nutrition.  
>
>I want to find a community where I can share my talents and abilities to the
>good of the group.  I am looking for a situation where my gardening and food
>preservation skills would be useful, as well.  Currently I live in Northwest
>Kansas on a very tiny farm.
>
>Please send me more information!
>
>Celia

If we act quickly and "intentionally", we can employ some fascinatingly
efficient survival methods ahead of multifarious 'crash' scenarios severally
culminating.

We're amenable to leasing or selling acreage, or--IF we get enough like-minded
participants who want to do more than conjecture about it--placing the land in
a pure trust for secure access with inbuilt community cohesion.  The going
rate here is up to $3000/acre, but if we were simply selling out we'd accept
~$12.5K for 5 acres ($2500/acre), ~$33K for 15 acres, and ~$60K or less for 30
acres.  (These rates are negotiable according to prospective neighbors'
desirability WRT Y2K concerns like community-mindedness.)  As for rental or
lease arragnements, we're open to offers.  *However*, we're convinced that
human solidarity is the greatest natural resource, and hope that enough
innovative, forward-thinking people could coalesce here for us to also count
knowledge, effort, and material resources as negotiable commodities,
indispensible to the common enterprise of making life better than ever in
terms of health, spirituality, etc.  

I've had some exciting responses from quality people, but sometimes I think
they paralyze themselves by aspiring so highly that their tenable level of
effort seems comparatively futile.  We need to focus on what 10 minutes of
collective brainstorming followed by 10 days of mutual barn-raising could do!
I'm hoping for a concentration of cogent intellects, gravitating together for
making each other's lives full over the long term--or we can simply sell
tracts of land to people who are running scared.  What are your aspirations?

Regards, Russ

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Nov  5 22:39:56 1998
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From: UNIR2B1@aol.com
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Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 01:28:53 EST
To: trknute@earthlink.net
Cc: Terri Schoolden <manna@blazenet.net>, lkvp@mail.awod.com,
        Vince Goetsch <3wishes@wishgranted.com>, richarda@icx.net,
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Hello Again--

These considerations might bear on other hydroxy applications:

* Do other liquids besides water also hydrolyze when electrified, perhaps with
different voltage thresholds?

* Do other gasses re-combine into liquids when exposed to the same catalysts
that re-combine hydroxy back into water, e.g., a spark? energetic forces
within the fuel cell? 

Thanks.  --Russ

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From: "Dennis C. Lee" <atech@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Intentional community
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Hi;

At 12:16 AM 11/6/98 EST, you wrote:

>If we act quickly and "intentionally", we can employ some fascinatingly
>efficient survival methods ahead of multifarious 'crash' scenarios severally
>culminating.
>
>We're amenable to leasing or selling acreage, or--IF we get enough like-minded
>participants who want to do more than conjecture about it--placing the land in
>a pure trust for secure access with inbuilt community cohesion.  The going
>rate here is up to $3000/acre, but if we were simply selling out we'd accept
>~$12.5K for 5 acres ($2500/acre), ~$33K for 15 acres, and ~$60K or less for 30
>acres.

We're interested, send more info.


Regards;
Dennis


Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Nov  6 03:19:04 1998
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Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:13:43 +0100 (MET)
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From: Jean-Pierre Lentin <lentin@imaginet.fr>
Subject: Re: Rife technology
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Hi all

As a Rife-list subscriber, I may add that this technology, though not a
miracle cancer cure, does have merits and results. Enuff said. I fully agree
this is off-topic. As no one has provided yet the complete links to this
list, here they are

http://www.netspace.org/cgi-bin/lwgate/RIFE-LIST/
or mail to 
 rife-list-request@eskimo.com
 Subject:  subscribe
archives at
http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/rife/

Hope this helps. Cheers !
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jean-Pierre Lentin
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Nov  6 03:22:02 1998
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Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 06:26:21 -0500
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: "Dennis C. Lee" <atech@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Loophole in the Laws of Science
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Hi;

At 05:24 PM 11/5/98 -0500, you wrote:

>1 - Through electrolysis generate Hydrogen & Oxygen for a given amount of
power 
>consumed, we'll call it "C".

Isn't the idea to generate atomic hydrogen and atomic oxygen?


>6 - According to TR Knudtson we could extract some additional Ionic energy
from 
>this flow of water.  If we can we will call it "G5?".

Where did you hear this? Is this highly charged water that you refer to?

>So that the amount of power consumed "C" returns "G1+G2+G3+G4+G5?".

This is a lot of work. I think a factor is if the dissociation energy of the
hydrogen molecule is defined by:


Physical Chemistry 1965 Pergamon Press p 418

"The Spectroscopic evaluation of the dissociation energy

The energy of dissociation, De, of a diatomic molecule is the difference
between the potential energy of the atoms when infinitely separated, and
their energy when the atoms are at rest at the equilibrium separation."


Does this mean that De is the potential energy of atomic hydrogen?

Regards;
Dennis


Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Nov  6 04:28:51 1998
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Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 07:34:35 -0500
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: "Dennis C. Lee" <atech@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Other hydroxy considerations...
Resent-Message-ID: <"DO0LL.0.hT7.0jkGs"@mx1>
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Hi;

At 01:28 AM 11/6/98 EST, you wrote:

>* Do other gasses re-combine into liquids when exposed to the same catalysts
>that re-combine hydroxy back into water, e.g., a spark? energetic forces
>within the fuel cell? 

There is the suggestion that the dissociation energy is not properly
understood. The only verbal definition I can find is:


Physical Chemistry 1965 Pergamon Press p 418

"The Spectroscopic evaluation of the dissociation energy

The energy of dissociation, De, of a diatomic molecule is the difference
between the potential energy of the atoms when infinitely separated, and
their energy when the atoms are at rest at the equilibrium separation."


Does the above definition imply that De is the potential energy of atomic
hydrogen?

Regards;
Dennis



Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Nov  6 05:11:24 1998
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: "Dennis C. Lee" <atech@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: ZPE patent
Resent-Message-ID: <"WJplD1.0.R62.yJlGs"@mx1>
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Hi;

At 09:29 PM 11/5/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Well, who says you can't patent these type of things? This is most
>interesting somewhat akin to Don Smith's stuff. Wish there was more data on
>type of dielectric used etc. There is some math which needs to be studied
>when I get around to it, maybe that will provide a clue on the generalities.
>
>
>http://www.patents.ibm.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/5590031
>
>
>What do you think? 


Cool! Here's a Keely type vibration influencing the weight of an object:

http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?patent_number=5280864


Regards;
Dennis


Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Nov  6 05:49:55 1998
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Message-ID: <19981106134332.5243.rocketmail@web4.rocketmail.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 05:43:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Adrian <improvization@rocketmail.com>
Subject: neurophone
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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Hello,  

I am new to this list and wanted to find out if anyone had a
neurophone..or neurophone like device /software in their possesion. If
so....I am trying to get some voice material preocessed into
neurophonic signals...so that I can test out a radionic device on
myself which would send energy patterns in the shape of neurophonic
signals. I am not in the position to purchase a neurophone at this time.


Any help would be greatly appreciated.




===

Adrian 

improvization@rocketmail.com







_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Nov  6 08:23:35 1998
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Message-ID: <36432290.1865@keelynet.com>
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 10:23:44 -0600
From: "Jerry W. Decker" <jdecker@keelynet.com>
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Hi Adrian!

About the Neurophone, check out http://www.flantech.com

-- 
           Jerry Wayne Decker  /   jdecker@keelynet.com
         http://keelynet.com   /  "From an Art to a Science"
      Voice : (214) 324-8741   /   FAX :  (214) 324-3501
   KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Nov  6 08:26:58 1998
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----------
> Hello,  
> 
> I am new to this list and wanted to find out if anyone had a
> neurophone..or neurophone like device /software in their possesion. If
> so....I am trying to get some voice material preocessed into
> neurophonic signals...so that I can test out a radionic device on
> myself which would send energy patterns in the shape of neurophonic
> signals. I am not in the position to purchase a neurophone at this time.
> 
> 
> Any help would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ===
> 
> Adrian 
> 
> improvization@rocketmail.com
> 
>KDNO radio station in Delano,calif was selling them over the air appox.
1-2 yrs ago call info 4
number 500.00 the patent has been unclassifed KDNO was partners with a
lawyer out of 
Fresno  calif.  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> DO YOU YAHOO!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> 
> 


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Nov  6 12:20:23 1998
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From: "Jim Shaffer, Jr." <jshaffer@csrlink.net>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: ZPE patent
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 15:04:47 -0500
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>Cool! Here's a Keely type vibration influencing the weight of an object:
>
>http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?patent_number=5280864

I glanced at the patent, and it sounds similar to something I read on the
net a few years ago concerning making objects invisible with pulsing
electric fields.  The people making the claim said they had made a videotape
showing the effect.  Then I never heard from them again.  I'll have to look
for it in my old mail when I get time, but I don't know when that'll be and
I may not have it on this machine anyway.  I may have posted it to KeelyNet,
in which case it should be in the archives.  Or I may have just mailed it to
Jerry.

--
"There are no authorities whatever.  No president, academy, court of
law, congress or senate on this earth has the power or the knowledge
to decide what will be the knowledge of tomorrow."
          --Dr. Wilhelm Reich


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Nov  6 12:20:38 1998
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>I am new to this list and wanted to find out if anyone had a
>neurophone..or neurophone like device /software in their possesion. If
>so....I am trying to get some voice material preocessed into
>neurophonic signals...

You know, there's an idea...  Why couldn't it be done in software?  Even if
it couldn't be done in real time it would still be useful, but it just might
be possible in real time.  Is anyone working on it?

--
"There are no authorities whatever.  No president, academy, court of
law, congress or senate on this earth has the power or the knowledge
to decide what will be the knowledge of tomorrow."
          --Dr. Wilhelm Reich


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Nov  6 14:11:27 1998
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From: "Dennis C. Lee" <atech@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: ZPE patent
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Hi;


At 03:04 PM 11/6/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>Cool! Here's a Keely type vibration influencing the weight of an object:
>>
>>http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?patent_number=5280864
>
>I glanced at the patent, and it sounds similar to something I read on the
>net a few years ago concerning making objects invisible with pulsing
>electric fields.  The people making the claim said they had made a videotape
>showing the effect.  Then I never heard from them again.

Paranoia time. They either disappeared themselves, were kidding, or were
stopped by you know who? It sounds extreme to want to make stuff disappear.
Why? How is this a useful effect for everyday type stuff. Sounds military
and very risky.

We need a certain most honored professor to keep us out of trouble while we
figure this out. It is a wonderful experience discovering things on profound
levels and it's easy to get over exuberant. We must give each other feedback
to keep proper perspective on how fast we advance. On the other hand, the
severity of the weather lately is a major concern.

Regards;
Dennis





Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Nov  6 16:10:19 1998
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From: "Plasmatic" <plas@dlcwest.com>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Patent Information
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 17:54:49 -0600
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Since you guys deal with patents all the time, I thought it would be best to ask you of all people :)  A friend of mine and I have both invented a three-wheeled invention that can do what most of today's recumbrent designs can do, but much more.  Better c


ontrol, cheaper building cost, more safe, etc.  We are only 14, so patents weren't something we had even considered 2 years ago ;)  Now, we have met a big-time real estate agent near us who is into recumbrents as well, infact, he just bought a $2000 one t


hat can easily hit 30mph!  But his foot slipped off the pedals and got dragged underneath it, causing many broken bones in his foot.  he saw us riding our cart one day, and complimented us on it, saying it would be a good buisness venture.  He liked are d


esign better than the others he had seen, so he wanted to get together with us, show us his, and maybe trade plans.  My friends mom was quite cautious on this and decided it was better to get a patent first.  We have never gotten a patent before, as you c


an guess, so we were wondering if you could supply us with information on it.  We checked all the patents would could find on the IBM Patent Server, and none of them were even close to ours.  So, atleast there shouldn't be a fight.  The only thing is, wha


t to we have to do, how much will it cost, and how long will it take?  We shouldn't need a US one yet, unless it's all the same, I don't know :)  We are in Canada, if that makes any difference.  Thanks all!

-Plasmatic
Plas@Dlcwest.Com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Nov  6 18:08:01 1998
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Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 12:23:10 +1000
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: GEOFF EGEL <egel@main.murray.net.au>
Subject: encyclopedia shareware update and what is orgone energy
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HI ALL
 "Rich" <liqnitro@twcny.rr.com>

as above wrote to asking  for answer to this question 
I have limited knowledge about the proper term

>    What is orgone energy?       -Rich 

this my reply

Basically it the term William Reich    called the force behind life.
The think term has been thrown around to cover many things that did not
seem to fit into common scientific descriptions.

I think org energy,cosmic energy ,pyramid energy   are   terms that have
been used to describe this unknown force as well,there are others.

Can others help out.
Geoff

By the way  for those that are interested I have sightly upgraded the
encyclopedia of free energy   that is the shareware free load  version
avaiable at my website as of below.

just go to my to my main web page and select the freebie banner to get the
zip files copy of it.
Until next time Geoff




Geoff

http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/1135
Solaris searching for natures energy sources.

Geoff Egel
18 Sturt Street
Loxton 5333
South Australia
Australia

Phone  (08) (8584 5201)
Usually can be reached hereafter  6 pm local time 
(Monday - Saturday)
Central Australian time
others times you cannot be certain of getting me here.

Like to hear from You,  I expect this to apply only to Australian viewers

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Nov  6 22:23:56 1998
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Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 01:30:11 -0500
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: "Dennis C. Lee" <atech@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Patent Information
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Hi;

At 05:54 PM 11/6/98 -0600, you wrote:
>My friends mom was quite cautious on this and decided it was better to get
a patent first.  We have never got!
>ten a patent before, as you can guess, so we were wondering if you could
supply us with information on it.  We checked all the patents would could
find on the IBM Patent Server, and none of them were even close to ours.
So, atleast there shouldn't be a fight.  The only thing is, what to we have
to do, how much will it cost, and how long will it take?

I would recommend talking to my old college buddy turned patent examiner now
patent lawyer in Washington DC. I team up with him and do patent drawings on
premium projects. I specialize in 3D modelling. Once the 3D model of the
patent idea is created, various views can be made from the one model to make
the patent drawings. Then, if the design is well planned, the same 3D model
can be used to create the engineering drawings to manufacture the product.

Patents are either design or utility types for a product like a bike. Design
patents are less expensive but protect only the appearance of the bike. Some
one could make changes in appearance and retain basic function of your idea
and create another patent. Utility patents are much more expensive but
defining the way the design functions is better legal coverage. There are
books at the library about this.

What do you mean by the realestate person wanting to trade plans? Does your
family know this person? Are you certain of his motives? Maybe you could
suggest to him you want 5% royalties and he can finance expenses. It's
always best to get advice from a lawyer. 


Regards;
Dennis


Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Nov  7 02:41:04 1998
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Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 05:47:06 -0500
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: "Dennis C. Lee" <atech@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Einstein-Pole Shift-Analysis Method
Resent-Message-ID: <"SWq9O.0.V43.2E2Hs"@mx1>
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>Hi;
>
>I think my Icecube Cutter/Transport is still a good idea.
>
>5/5/2000:
>
>>  Twelve years before Mr. Brown's book Cataclysms of the Earth was
>>published, Albert Einstein was writing a Foreword to a book called
>>Earth's Shifting Crust, by Prof.  Charles H. Hapgood.  Prof. 
>>Hapgood's book is about a pole-shift that took place around 6,000
>>years ago.  Einstein wrote:
>>
>>  I frequently receive communications from people who wish to con-
>>sult me concerning their unpublished ideas.  It goes without saying
>>that these ideas are very seldom possessed of scientific validity. 
>>The very first communication, however, that I received from Mr.
>>Hapgood electrified me. His idea is original, of great simplicity,
>>and-if it continues to prove itself-of great importance to every-
>>thing that is related to the history of the earth's surface.
>>  A great many empirical data indicate that at each point on the
>>earth's surface that has been carefully studied, many climatic
>>changes have taken place, apparently quite suddenly.  This,
>>according to Hapgood, is explicable if the virtually rigid outer
>>crust of the earth undergoes, from time to time, extensive
>>displacement over the viscous, plastic, possibly fluid inner
>>layers.  Such displacements may take place as the consequence of
>>comparatively slight forces exerted on the crust, derived from the
>>earth's momentum of rotation, which in turn will tend to alter the
>>axis of rotation of the earth's crust.
>>  In a polar region there is continual deposition of ice, which is
>>not symmetrically distributed about the pole.  The earth's rotation
>>acts on these unsymmetrically deposited masses, and produces
>>centrifugal momentum that is transmitted to the rigid crust of the
>>earth.  The constantly increasing centrifugal momentum produced in
>>this way will, when it has reached a certain point, produce a
>>movement of the earth's crust over the rest of the earth's body,
>>and this will displace the polar regions toward the equator.
>>  Without a doubt the earth's crust is strong enough not to give way
>>proportionately as the ice is deposited.  The only doubtful
>>assumption is that the earth's crust can be moved easily enough
>>over the inner layers.
>>  The author has not confined himself to a simple presentation of
>>this idea.  He has also set forth, cautiously and comprehensively,
>>the extraordinarily rich material that supports his displacement
>>theory.  I think that this rather astonishing, even fascinating,
>>idea deserves the serious attention of anyone who concerns himself
>>with the theory of the earth's development.
>>  To close with an observation that has occurred to me while writing
>>these lines: If the earth's crust is really so easily displaced
>>over its substratum as this theory requires, then the rigid masses
>>near the earth's surface must be distributed in such a way that
>>they give rise to no other considerable centrifugal momentum, which
>>would tend to displace the crust by centrifugal effect.  I think
>>that this deduction might be capable of verification, at least
>>approximately.  This centrifugal momentum should in any case be
>>smaller than that produced by the masses of deposited ice. 14
>>
>>14 Hapgood, Earth's Shifting Crust, foreword by Albert Einstein.
>>
>>         311
>
>
>Last paragraph states the analysis method. Data?
>
>
>Regards;
>Dennis
>


Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Nov  7 07:07:31 1998
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Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 10:12:56 -0500
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: "Dennis C. Lee" <atech@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Balance of Centrifugal Momentum Components
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>Hi;
>
>Albert Einstein offered the following thoughts concerning the balance of
centrifugal momentum forces on the Earth's crust.
>
>>If the earth's crust is really so easily displaced
>>over its substratum as this theory requires, then the rigid masses
>>near the earth's surface must be distributed in such a way that
>>they give rise to no other considerable centrifugal momentum, which
>>would tend to displace the crust by centrifugal effect.  I think
>>that this deduction might be capable of verification, at least
>>approximately.  This centrifugal momentum should in any case be
>>smaller than that produced by the masses of deposited ice.
>
>
>I think this is the way to calculate proper balance of forces on the
Earth's crust to determine where and how much to trim the ice. Perhaps plate
techtonics science has land mass values calculated? They may have figures
for centrifugal momentum forces acting on the Earth's crust already established?
>
>
>Regards;
>Dennis
>


Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Nov  7 13:07:27 1998
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Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 16:07:07 -0500
From: B25B@LCIA.COM (RON BRENNEN)
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Dennis C. Lee wrote:
> 
> Hi;
> 
> At 05:54 PM 11/6/98 -0600, you wrote:
> >My friends mom was quite cautious on this and decided it was better to get
> a patent first.  We have never got!
> >ten a patent before, as you can guess, so we were wondering if you could
> supply us with information on it.  We checked all the patents would could
> find on the IBM Patent Server, and none of them were even close to ours.
> So, atleast there shouldn't be a fight.  The only thing is, what to we have
> to do, how much will it cost, and how long will it take?
> 
> I would recommend talking to my old college buddy turned patent examiner now
> patent lawyer in Washington DC. I team up with him and do patent drawings on
> premium projects. I specialize in 3D modelling. Once the 3D model of the
> patent idea is created, various views can be made from the one model to make
> the patent drawings. Then, if the design is well planned, the same 3D model
> can be used to create the engineering drawings to manufacture the product.
> 
> Patents are either design or utility types for a product like a bike. Design
> patents are less expensive but protect only the appearance of the bike. Some
> one could make changes in appearance and retain basic function of your idea
> and create another patent. Utility patents are much more expensive but
> defining the way the design functions is better legal coverage. There are
> books at the library about this.
> 
> What do you mean by the realestate person wanting to trade plans? Does your
> family know this person? Are you certain of his motives? Maybe you could
> suggest to him you want 5% royalties and he can finance expenses. It's
> always best to get advice from a lawyer.
> 
> Regards;
> Dennis
>
  Patents are not for the little guy. If your patent is any good
  anybody can sue for infringing on his wahing machine patent. When
  he loses, he can keep appealing until you run out of money. This
is an extreme example, but you get the point. It would cost far less
to market the product and you would be far ahead financialy.
Been there,
Ron Brennen

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Nov  7 22:12:20 1998
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From: "Plasmatic" <plas@dlcwest.com>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Patent Information
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By real estate person, I mean he is a real estate agent, working for Remax.  Yes, my friends family knows him well, but doesn't completely trust them.  And as more royalties, we're not planning to go into buisness just quite yet :)  We are just comparing 


ours and seeing what improvements we can make kinda thing.  He's a real kid at heart.  From the buisness prospective, we are only 14, and are only planning to sell these to friends for now.  We might even start selling them around our town (1500 people), 


but nowhere big.  We have heard alot about $75 patents in Popular Science magazine.  Are these ones design patents?  Utility patents sound like the kind that we would want, as the appearance is VERY basic, and could easily be modified.  We have done so at


least three times already :)  The entire idea of how it works is new, so that would sound to be the way to go.  However, if it's gonna cost a couple or more hundred, then we won't bother.  We just want to make sure we are atleast slightly protected.  Besi


des, if we have proof that we made it first (1500 witness plus dated documentation over the last 2-3 years) can we not worry about the patenting later if we find that someone is using our idea?  We would need lawyers then, but it doesn't seem as though we


 have to worry that much anyway.  Espionage isn't quite as major in small buisness, especially for someone who owns a Mercedez :)  Thanks.

-Plasmatic
Plas@Dlcwest.Com
-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis C. Lee <atech@ix.netcom.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Date: November 7, 1998 12:28 AM
Subject: Re: Patent Information


>Hi;
>
>At 05:54 PM 11/6/98 -0600, you wrote:
>>My friends mom was quite cautious on this and decided it was better to get
>a patent first.  We have never got!
>>ten a patent before, as you can guess, so we were wondering if you could
>supply us with information on it.  We checked all the patents would could
>find on the IBM Patent Server, and none of them were even close to ours.
>So, atleast there shouldn't be a fight.  The only thing is, what to we have
>to do, how much will it cost, and how long will it take?
>
>I would recommend talking to my old college buddy turned patent examiner now
>patent lawyer in Washington DC. I team up with him and do patent drawings on
>premium projects. I specialize in 3D modelling. Once the 3D model of the
>patent idea is created, various views can be made from the one model to make
>the patent drawings. Then, if the design is well planned, the same 3D model
>can be used to create the engineering drawings to manufacture the product.
>
>Patents are either design or utility types for a product like a bike. Design
>patents are less expensive but protect only the appearance of the bike. Some
>one could make changes in appearance and retain basic function of your idea
>and create another patent. Utility patents are much more expensive but
>defining the way the design functions is better legal coverage. There are
>books at the library about this.
>
>What do you mean by the realestate person wanting to trade plans? Does your
>family know this person? Are you certain of his motives? Maybe you could
>suggest to him you want 5% royalties and he can finance expenses. It's
>always best to get advice from a lawyer. 
>
>
>Regards;
>Dennis
>
>
>Tall Ships
>http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov  8 10:07:03 1998
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From: UNIR2B1@aol.com
Message-ID: <36b588c4.3645d3c4@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 12:24:20 EST
To: murrayjm@juno.com
Cc: markland@rockisland.com, UFOLAWYER1@aol.com,
        Terri Schoolden <manna@blazenet.net>, lkvp@mail.awod.com,
        Sharon <sharon@nyct.net>, Vince Goetsch <3wishes@wishgranted.com>,
        Carolyn <cwhite5@gl.umbc.edu>, richarda@icx.net,
        piercemark@hotmail.com, PetMagic@aol.com, celiag@email.com,
        lizardhaven@zippnet.net, Reality_Pump2@onelist.com,
        Tom <survival@ballistic.com>, michael romack <chief@sundial.net>,
        Henri Calitri <tenx7@bellatlantic.net>, candace1@usa.net,
        y2k-survival@infostream.net, SedonaY2K@mail-list.com, nhne@nhne.com,
        vortex-l@eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, rtoler@cland.net,
        goldbug@worldaccessnet.com, cturner@npwt.net, ark@Millennium-ark.net,
        Y2K <Y2KNOW@listbot.com>
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In a message dated 98-11-07 17:51:59 EST, you write:

>do you believe that in spite of broadcasting
>your location, you will not get unexpected 'outside' visitors when things
>start to fall apart next year?  I am concerned about this issue.  I have
>talked w/ several folks who believe that communities should remain
>strictly confidential, so as to prevent visits from marauders.

Naah...

Seriously, the location I described is too inspecific to be of any perfidious
use, and if anything, would land amoral opportunists in the midst of neighbors
who are exceedingly well-armed and notoriously clannish.  Anyway, I don't
think the internet would factor into a threat from povert-stricken marauders
when the time came, and that's what our fallback location in the woods is for.

--Russ

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov  8 10:30:26 1998
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From: UNIR2B1@aol.com
Message-ID: <c8f5be77.3645dbe0@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 12:58:56 EST
To: trknute@earthlink.net
Cc: markland@rockisland.com, UFOLAWYER1@aol.com,
        Terri Schoolden <manna@blazenet.net>, lkvp@mail.awod.com,
        Sharon <sharon@nyct.net>, Vince Goetsch <3wishes@wishgranted.com>,
        Carolyn <cwhite5@gl.umbc.edu>, richarda@icx.net, murrayjm@juno.com,
        piercemark@hotmail.com, PetMagic@aol.com, celiag@email.com,
        lizardhaven@zippnet.net, Tom <survival@ballistic.com>,
        michael romack <chief@sundial.net>,
        Henri Calitri <tenx7@bellatlantic.net>, biotron@pacbell.net,
        vortex-l@eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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Subject: Re: Hydroxy research
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In a message dated 98-11-08 02:34:28 EST, you write:

>Why convert to mechanical power which has great loses when Hydroxy can be
>expresed directly as electricity.
>
>Just store energy and use energy.
>
>TR Knudtson

Dear Mr. Knudtson, 

Thanks for entertaining my sophomoric questions; consider them as tendered on
behalf of multitudinous, non-technical types for whom hydroxy might soon
become a critical survival tool.  

Suppose heat were the desired end product.  Assuming that "burning" hydroxy is
exothermic, is it more efficent to convert it to electricity for powering a
heating element, than to simply *burn* the hydroxy and recirculate the
byproduct water?  It would seem that in some applications, esp. where heat or
rectilinear, mechanical force is desired, direct conversion of hydroxy to
flame or footpounds--without conversion to electricity & back--would be more
efficient, and a system gotten up & running on readily available CO2 tanks
until fuel cell construction were completed & perfected.  To this hypothesis,
the relevant questions are:  

1)  What is the expansion ratio of hydroxy:water?  

2)  Is it true that a spark will cause hydroxy to revert to water, thus
creating vacuum in a sealed enclosure?  

3)  And is it thermally safe to do so?

So far, I've missed out an a post that explicates a definitive, concise set of
fuel cell plans (I get way too much email).  Could diagrams be attached as
.bmp or .tif files?  

My interest in the simplest hydroxy applications is impelled by concern over
the level of deprivation and desperation that unfolding societal changes
portend.  If substitutes for collapsing infrastructure were simple enough,
perhaps hydroxy projects could be initiated in poverty areas, and the
potential for chaos lessened.  Hence, the interest in designs based on simple
ignition of the gas for creating vacuum, or better yet, simple hydrolytic
conversion of water to pressurized hydroxy for heat applications and, if water
supply weren't a problem, intermittent pneumatic power.

Respectfully, 

Russ

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov  8 18:57:22 1998
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X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 18:55:11 -0800 (PST)
From: William Beaty <billb@eskimo.com>
To: Undisclosed recipients:  ;
Subject: New newsgroup: alt.sci.amateur
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I just stumbled across a newsgroup-creation message from 8/31/98, for
ALT.SCI.AMATEUR, intended for discussion of amateur science topics.  It's
about time! 

To read ALT.SCI.AMATEUR through dejanews, go to:

   http://www.dejanews.com/=dnt_test1/dnquery.xp?search=word&svcclass=dncurrent&showsort=date&ST=QS&query=~g%20alt.sci.amateur

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb@eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L


From:davegreene@my-dejanews.com
Date:1998/10/13
Forums:alt.sci.amateur, sci.skeptic, alt.folklore.science,

On 8/31/98 a control message was issued to create alt.sci.amateur. This
invitation is being posted to these newsgroups in hopes that the new
alt.sci.amateur newsgroup might become a resource for science students and
hobbyists to further their science education. Ask your ISP to subscribe to
alt.sci.amateur of catch it on Deja News. Welcome and enjoy! Please abide
by the charter.

Charter: alt.sci.amateur is an unmoderated newsgroup for discussion of all
matters related to the amateur science hobby. It is not intended to be a
general science discussion group except as relating to an experiment or
project discussion appropriate to the group. Flames and inappropriate
crosspostings are off charter. Religious discussions and creation vs
evolution debates are also off charter. Binaries not allowed and posters
are encouraged to use email or point to Web sites for binaries having to
do with science projects. While rocketry and chemistry are legitimate
topics, plans for bombs of any type are explicitly off topic. All
advertising, whether commercial or private, that is not related to the
amateur science hobby is explicitly off topic.

Dave Greene

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov  8 19:08:32 1998
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Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 18:58:06 -0800
From: pat weissleader <lizardhaven@zippnet.net>
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Patent Information
References: <001201be0ade$a22984c0$9c298e8b@plassy>
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you can submit plans and get a registered disclosure document from the
patent office for about $15.  if they think that your idea conflicts
with others they will tell you-after their research.  you will hve to
submit plans and tell what part of your idea is uniqu and why, and what
potential commercial value is in it.
i trued out this process by submitting a disclosure document for a tea
bag tag that sticks on the side of the cup so it doesn't fall into the
cup when you pour the water over the tea bag-got it the first try in
about two weeks...this is definitely the way to go.  then you have to
submit something new before two years to keep the document current-it
marks the inspiration date so no one else can claim the idea later-my
inten tion  with the solar refrigeration idea (got it the first time
too) was to let it go public domain (not such a big deal since it
wouldn't have worked-i was seeing if they paid attention to the
technology).
i ould suggest that anyone wanting to deal with the patent office,
submit a design that is labeled 'novelty' and that would not work, but
contains the inportant stuff within it that might not get by if it were
submitted on it's own.  then if you do go on and finish a patent, the
jewel is there in something no one will pay attention to.
and if anyone coms to talk to you about it, talk about voices in your
head from aliens-anything to make them dismiss you as a looney, so you
can go on with your business without harassment.
remember that if you give them something to use to dismiss you, they
don't have to make something with their own efforts....and as long as
they can point to something that makes you seem crazy you will remain
unmolested.

--
Patricia Weissleader at Lizardhaven Ranch
'where the critter meets the glitter'


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov  9 02:24:02 1998
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From: UNIR2B1@aol.com
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Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 05:20:41 EST
To: y2k-survival@infostream.net, SedonaY2K@mail-list.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com,
        freenrg-l@eskimo.com, rtoler@cland.net, goldbug@worldaccessnet.com,
        cturner@npwt.net, ark@Millennium-ark.net, Y2K <Y2KNOW@listbot.com>,
        piercemark@hotmail.com, markland@rockisland.com, UFOLAWYER1@aol.com,
        Terri Schoolden <manna@blazenet.net>, lkvp@mail.awod.com,
        Sharon <sharon@nyct.net>, Vince Goetsch <3wishes@wishgranted.com>,
        Carolyn <cwhite5@gl.umbc.edu>, richarda@icx.net, murrayjm@juno.com,
        PetMagic@aol.com, celiag@email.com, lizardhaven@zippnet.net,
        Reality_Pump2@onelist.com, Tom <survival@ballistic.com>,
        michael romack <chief@sundial.net>,
        Henri Calitri <tenx7@bellatlantic.net>, visited@onelist.com,
        Marsha Doyenne <mdoyenne@dustdevil.com>,
        "Dennis C. Lee" <atech@ix.netcom.com>, seer7@netusa1.net,
        Julie Reiner <julier@maxwell.UCSC.EDU>, BB1050@aol.com,
        johnhoffman@webtv.net, huntfish1@juno.com, biotron@pacbell.net,
        heatherti@mindspring.com
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Subject: SCIENTIFIC HAVEN--in case it all 'hits the fan'...
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Many of you have seen or replied to posts titled "PROGRESSIVE  COMMUNITY NOW
FORMING" (and variations).  As these posts have circulated throughout the web,
the quality and number of responses has increased, making it opportune now to
amplify the gist of our invitation.  As fellow innovators of all types prepare
to emigrate from dangerous population centers, we propose that they consider
joining forces for continuing and even accelerating research into novel
techniques for mankind's success.  Toward that end, we proffer our rural,
40-acre site as a possible destination (in a 'safe zone' that appears on
various "future maps", in the NE corner of Alabama, at the beginning of the
original Appalachian Trail).

The millennium predicament will soon become a universally inescapable
realization; the following is intended for those who have already passed the
denial phase.  As in the rest of life, the two basic approaches to this multi-
faceted challenge will be characterized by fear/aggression, and reason/love.
Currently, the prevalent response consists of hoarding food, fuel, etc.; but
as provisions are intrinsically temporary, those who rely upon them
exclusively must tacitly hope for an eventual return of the status quo.  

Such a hope rests on a misunderstanding of the crisis.  A few of you will
understand the "protocols" by which political power has been consolidated over
the last few centuries; namely, by deft management of an historical pattern
that cycles between periods of societal desperation followed by increased
centralization of control.  "Out of chaos, order" is their maxim, so when
greater power is desired, greater chaos is indicated.  Some will argue that
Y2K was not planned (unlike the Great Depression), but at the very least, it
presents an opportunity that “they” will not miss to consolidate power
further--this time on a global scale.  It is therefore certain that the status
quo as we know it will not return.  

After survival stores are depleted, joining the New World Order might cost
more than people would pay unless they were desperate--which, unless they're
self-sustaining, will only be a matter time.  The only alternative, therefore,
is to prepare *now* to leave the system permanently, along with its toxic,
wasteful, and backward methodologies calculated to keep the public in chronic
debilitatation and dependency.  This entails securing the means not only for
self-sustenance, but also for ongoing progress without outside assistance,
should telecommunications and travel fall under martial law restrictions.
THIS, IN TURN, NECESSITATES AN ASSEMBLAGE OF INNOVATIVE MINDS AND SCIENTIFIC
EQUIPMENT & SUPPLIES (remember Galt's Gulch!).  

Amid general squalor and desperation, how could such an installation be
protected?  With the very technologies that we will develop.  Whereas the
prevalent attitude toward security consists exclusively of stockpiling weapons
and ammunition for use against desperate people, our technologies would be
weapons against the privation that makes people desperate.  

Buckminister Fuller defined technology as the art of doing more with less.  If
you're an inventor, you know that complex thought is prerequisite for a simple
design.  Similarly, our collaborative use of scientific equipment will yield
techniques whereby families can be independent using parts scavenged from junk
yards.  Sharing these techniques with our far-flung neighbors' would enhance
their viability--and thus their cogency as a surrounding buffer zone--and arm
them with knowledge to pass along to the needy, which would further defuse the
desperation time bomb.  

Unsettling signs in economics, earth science, computerization, etc. all add up
to the possibility of becoming cut off from others; but if we act now, we can
*choose* with whom to be indefinitely cut off.  The line si drawn between
those whose focus extends no further than their own rations and guns, and
those dedicated to discovering novel keys to plenitude for all.  If you're
among the latter, please let us know (quickly, please--a cloud of micro-metors
is due to bombard Earth's satellites "at 50 X the speed of rifle bullets" on
Nov. 18th). 

--Russ 
UNIR2B1@aol.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov  9 05:11:41 1998
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From: mindtech@nor.com.au
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: ZPE patent
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>I glanced at the patent, and it sounds similar to something I read on the
>net a few years ago concerning making objects invisible with pulsing
>electric fields.

George De La Warr, of radionic instrument fame, once described an
experiment in which three audio oscillators were tuned such that the room
appear to "dissolve". To my knowledge, there was no disclosure of the
frequencies used, or if the effect was ever repeated. I think the clue is
"three", and what that might represent.

Peter Nielsen

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov  9 07:36:59 1998
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Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:57:02 -0500
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From: Bob Colvin <geet@friend.ly.net>
Subject: Re: Y2K/Goverment/Free energy
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At 07:30 PM 10/28/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>Assuming the government and corporations, come to the 
>>conclusion, sometime in 1999, that "TheEndOfTheWorldAs
>>WeKnowIt (TEOTWASKI), is a good possibility.
>
>You make a funny.
>
>>If the above assumptions are correct, can we expect 
>>the release of some sort of free energy device in 1999.
>
>
YES,

Paul Pantone from GEET (Global Environmental Energy Technology) is now
releasing plans and information on his fuel processor for any engine, so
that it can run on up to 80% water with any hydrocarbon for fuel.

http://www.geet.com

Bob

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+                                 +
+   Bob Colvin - GEET of MD/WI    +
+                                 +
+  http://www.Friend.ly.Net/GEET  +
+                                 +
+      geet@friend.ly.net         +
+                                 +
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov  9 09:20:32 1998
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From: Bob Colvin <geet@friend.ly.net>
Subject: Re: Cisterns...
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At 06:06 PM 11/3/98 EST, you wrote:
>Howdy Again, Bro. Bill--
>
>Cisterns are probably the most expedient method for collecting water; i.e.,
>via gutters along the roof of existing structures.  Do you still recommend
>your friend's (brother's?) food-grade plastic 55 gal. drums @ $35?  Have you
>found another source?
>
>
Hi,

I just picked up six 55 gallon, food grade drums from the local soft drink
bottling plant for FREE!!! They are not allowed to use them over again and
have to be shredded and melted down to be recycled.

http://www.geet.com

Bob

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+                                 +
+   Bob Colvin - GEET of MD/WI    +
+                                 +
+  http://www.Friend.ly.Net/GEET  +
+                                 +
+      geet@friend.ly.net         +
+                                 +
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov  9 10:14:11 1998
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From: RoConroy@aol.com
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Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 13:03:36 EST
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In a message dated 98-11-09 05:23:52 EST, Russ,you write:

<< As fellow innovators of all types prepare
 to emigrate from dangerous population centers, we propose that they consider
 joining forces for continuing and even accelerating research into novel
 techniques for mankind's success.  Toward that end, we proffer our rural,
 40-acre site as a possible destination (in a 'safe zone' that appears on
 various "future maps", in the NE corner of Alabama, at the beginning of the
 original Appalachian Trail). >>

As the y2k event happens within 14 months, I might suggest a simply design
which might provide a high strength, low cost basic structure, in which a
basic kit can be built in 24 man hours, at a basic material cost of less than
$1200, or about $3/sq foot.  The design  is based on the 3 primary lengths;
unity,square root of 2, and Tau.  I believe that these same primary lengths
are also  the key to the structure of the aether and eventually can be used to
tap into that energy supply. URL:
http:ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/robert_conroy

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov  9 14:12:41 1998
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From: UNIR2B1@aol.com
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Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 17:01:31 EST
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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Subject: "Speed" of light?  [was: Re: Ordering the CRC Handbook- speed of light.]
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In a message dated 98-11-09 12:10:20 EST, you write:

To thouroughly admit my ignorance:  How could the speed of light ever
accurately be measured, if:

...the speed of light is considered a constant, and unrelated to the speed of
the emitting source, and 

...speed is a funcntion of time over distance, and distance involves moving
objects 

I.e., distance always means distance from something that is moving.  How could
you measure a constant speed, when *all* points of reference were subject to
velocities realtive to some fixed point which must remain forever imaginary,
since everything we know of is in motion?  How would one ascertain that the
mutual motion of two bodies between which light were travelling were moving
exclusively and precisely perpendicularly to the light ray being measured?
Why wouldn't one assume that tohse bodies were both involved in a mutual
longitudinal motion, colinear with the ray 
?  At best, it seems that we should express the speed of light as precise only
in relation to the average speed of the universe, which we cannot measure in
the absence of a verified Stationary Object (God?).  This, it seems, puts
aspirations about having discovered a "constant" in a narrower context. 

--Russ

--Russ


>Date:	98-11-09 12:10:20 EST
>From:	hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
>Reply-to:	vortex-l@eskimo.com
>To:	vortex-l@eskimo.com
>
>At 10:46 PM 11/6/98, dave dameron wrote:
>>Hi Scott and all,
>>At 01:27 PM 11/6/98 -0600, you wrote:
>>>At 09:51 11/6/98 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote:
>>>
>>>>....but also still use my 1945 edition (I
>>>>bought for a few bucks)  because it has info not in the present edition.
>>>
>>>For the same reason, I've started a collection.  I now have 1929, 1953,

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov  9 15:05:37 1998
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From: trknute@earthlink.net
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Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 23:51:05 -0800
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Hydroxy research
In-Reply-To: <c8f5be77.3645dbe0@aol.com>
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In a message dated 98-11-08 02:34:28 EST, you write:

>Why convert to mechanical power which has great loses when Hydroxy can be
>expresed directly as electricity.
>
>Just store energy and use energy.
>
>TR Knudtson

Dear Mr. Knudtson, 

Thanks for entertaining my sophomoric questions; consider them as tendered on
behalf of multitudinous, non-technical types for whom hydroxy might soon
become a critical survival tool.  

Suppose heat were the desired end product.  Assuming that "burning" hydroxy is
exothermic, is it more efficent to convert it to electricity for powering a
heating element, than to simply *burn* the hydroxy and recirculate the
byproduct water?  It would seem that in some applications, esp. where heat or
rectilinear, mechanical force is desired, direct conversion of hydroxy to
flame or footpounds--without conversion to electricity & back--would be more
efficient, and a system gotten up & running on readily available CO2 tanks
until fuel cell construction were completed & perfected.  To this hypothesis,
the relevant questions are:  

In heating applications the hydroxyl reaction is much to hot to be of use
directly.  Most materials would simply vaporize.  You can however run
tubing through a bath of silica, and then heat the sand to then heat water
for steam.  I would suggest instead that you use separated hydrogen.  It
can be stored safely at higher pressures, up and to including liquefaction.
 It is nonpoisonous, will not concentrate in a home, and can be used
through burners to convert any conventional appliance. The waist oxygen can
then be bubbled through water to form a purifying action, and vented to
normal atmosphere.


1) What is the expansion ratio of hydroxy:water?

1862 to 1  

2)  Is it true that a spark will cause hydroxy to revert to water, thus
creating vacuum in a sealed enclosure? 

Yes, when at ambient pressure in a grounded vessel.  

2) And is it thermally safe to do so?

Yes, the energy in the gas is converted to an electrical discharge to ground.

So far, I've missed out an a post that explicates a definitive, concise set of
fuel cell plans (I get way too much email).  Could diagrams be attached as
.bmp or .tif files?  

My interest in the simplest hydroxy applications is impelled by concern over
the level of deprivation and desperation that unfolding societal changes
portend.  If substitutes for collapsing infrastructure were simple enough,
perhaps hydroxy projects could be initiated in poverty areas, and the
potential for chaos lessened.  Hence, the interest in designs based on simple
ignition of the gas for creating vacuum, or better yet, simple hydrolytic
conversion of water to pressurized hydroxy for heat applications and, if water
supply weren't a problem, intermittent pneumatic power.

I will send you some other information that will help you.

Respectfully, 

Russ




>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov  9 18:40:01 1998
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pat weissleader wrote:
> 
> you can submit plans and get a registered disclosure document from the
> patent office for about $15.  if they think that your idea conflicts
> with others they will tell you-after their research.  you will hve to
> submit plans and tell what part of your idea is uniqu and why, and what
> potential commercial value is in it.
> i trued out this process by submitting a disclosure document for a tea
> bag tag that sticks on the side of the cup so it doesn't fall into the
> cup when you pour the water over the tea bag-got it the first try in
> about two weeks...this is definitely the way to go.  then you have to
> submit something new before two years to keep the document current-it
> marks the inspiration date so no one else can claim the idea later-my
> inten tion  with the solar refrigeration idea (got it the first time
> too) was to let it go public domain (not such a big deal since it
> wouldn't have worked-i was seeing if they paid attention to the
> technology).
> i ould suggest that anyone wanting to deal with the patent office,
> submit a design that is labeled 'novelty' and that would not work, but
> contains the inportant stuff within it that might not get by if it were
> submitted on it's own.  then if you do go on and finish a patent, the
> jewel is there in something no one will pay attention to.
> and if anyone coms to talk to you about it, talk about voices in your
> head from aliens-anything to make them dismiss you as a looney, so you
> can go on with your business without harassment.
> remember that if you give them something to use to dismiss you, they
> don't have to make something with their own efforts....and as long as
> they can point to something that makes you seem crazy you will remain
> unmolested.
> 
> --
> Patricia Weissleader at Lizardhaven Ranch
> 'where the critter meets the glitter'

 After a patent is granted you can't stop anyone from using it
 until the patent is adudicated. It used to cost over $100,000.
 if somebody appealed up to the supreme court or you went broke
 before then.
 Ron Brennen

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov  9 19:19:37 1998
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Rymel <rymel@mindspring.com>
Subject: T.T. Brown Question
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i just got into this alternative science stuff, and i'm interested in
experimenting with the Biefield-Brown Effect and Brown's flying saucers.
I'd like to know if anyone on this list has made any and would like to help
me get started.  I'm no physics wiz so please don't try and talk to me like
i am.  Thanks

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov  9 19:20:27 1998
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Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 22:18:30 -0500
From: B25B@LCIA.COM (RON BRENNEN)
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Bob Colvin wrote:
> 
> At 07:30 PM 10/28/98 -0500, you wrote:
> >>Assuming the government and corporations, come to the
> >>conclusion, sometime in 1999, that "TheEndOfTheWorldAs
> >>WeKnowIt (TEOTWASKI), is a good possibility.
> >
> >You make a funny.
> >
> >>If the above assumptions are correct, can we expect
> >>the release of some sort of free energy device in 1999.
> >
> >
> YES,
> 
> Paul Pantone from GEET (Global Environmental Energy Technology) is now
> releasing plans and information on his fuel processor for any engine, so
> that it can run on up to 80% water with any hydrocarbon for fuel.
> 
> http://www.geet.com
> 
> Bob
> 

  There is nothing on his web page to indicate this.

  Ron Brennen  

> + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
> +                                 +
> +   Bob Colvin - GEET of MD/WI    +
> +                                 +
> +  http://www.Friend.ly.Net/GEET  +
> +                                 +
> +      geet@friend.ly.net         +
> +                                 +
> + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov  9 20:21:30 1998
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From: "Jim Shaffer, Jr." <jshaffer@csrlink.net>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: ZPE patent
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 22:59:51 -0500
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>George De La Warr, of radionic instrument fame, once described an
>experiment in which three audio oscillators were tuned such that the >room
appear to "dissolve".

Audio oscillators, or audio-frequency radio oscillators?

I'm also wondering whether it could have been a mental effect, but I have
the Hutchinson Effect in mind too.

--
"There are no authorities whatever.  No president, academy, court of
law, congress or senate on this earth has the power or the knowledge
to decide what will be the knowledge of tomorrow."
          --Dr. Wilhelm Reich


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov  9 20:26:15 1998
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Subject: interesting reading on electricity and magnetism
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I found this interesting article in the archives of the Borderland Sciences
Research Foundation BBS years ago.  In all likelihood it is copyrighted, and
I'm posting it for research purposes only.  It offers some interesting
thoughts on the possibility of faster-than-light energy transfer.



Introduction to
DIELECTRICITY AND CAPACITANCE
by Eric Dollard


CAPACITANCE
The phenomena of capacitance is a type of electrical energy storage in the
form of a field
in an enclosed space.  This space is typically bounded by two parallel
metallic plates or
two metallic foils on an intervening insulator or dielectric.  A nearly
infinite variety of
more complex structures can exhibit capacity, as long as a difference in
electric
potential exists between various areas of the structure.  The oscillating
coil represents
one possibility as to a capacitor of more complex form, and will be
presented here.

CAPACITANCE INADEQUATELY EXPLAINED
The perception of capacitance as used today is wholly inadequate for the
proper
understanding of this effect.  Steinmetz mentions this in his introductory
book Electric
Discharges, Waves and Impulses.  To quote, "Unfortunately, to  large extent
in dealing
with dielectric fields the prehistoric conception of the electrostatic
charge (electron) on
the conductor still exists, and by its use destroys the analogy between the
two
components of the electric field, the magnetic and the dielectric, and makes
the
consideration of dielectric fields unnecessarily complicated."

LINES OF FORCE AS REPRESENTATION OF DIELECTRICITY
Steinmetz continues, "There is obviously no more sense in thinking of the
capacity
current as current which charges the conductor with a quantity of
electricity, than there is
of speaking of the inductance voltage as charging the conductor with a
quantity of
magnetism.  But the latter conception, together with the notion of a
quantity of
magnetism, etc., has vanished since Faraday's representation of the magnetic
field by
lines of force."

THE LAWS OF LINES OF FORCE
All the lines of magnetic force are closed upon themselves, all dielectric
lines of force
terminate on conductors, but may form closed loops in electromagnetic
radiation.
These represent the basic laws of lines of force.  It can be seen from these
laws that any
line of force cannot just end in space.

FARADAY & LINES OF FORCE THEORY
Farady felt strongly that action at a distance is not possible thru empty
space, or in other
words, "matter cannot act where it is not."  He considered space pervaded
with lines of
force.  Almost everyone is familiar with the patterns formed by iron filings
around a
magnet.  These filings act as numerous tiny compasses and orientate
themselves along
the lines of force existing around the poles of the magnet.  Experiment has
indicated that
a magnetic field does possess a fibrous construct.  By passing a coil of
wire thru a
strong magnetic field and listening to the coil output in headphones, the
experimenter
will notice a scraping noise. J. J. Thompson performed further experiments
involving the
ionization of gases that indicate the field is not continuous but fibrous
(electricity and
matter, 1906).

PHYSICAL CHARACTERISTICS OF LINES OF FORCE
Consider the space between poles of a magnet or capacitor as full of lines
of electric
force.  See Fig.1.  These lines of force act as a quantity of stretched and
mutually
repellent springs.  Anyone who has pushed together the like poles of two
magnets has
felt this springy mass.  Observe Fig.2.  Notice the lines of force are more
dense along
AB in between poles, and that more lines on A are facing B than are
projecting outwards
to infinity.  Consider the effect of the lines of force on A.  These lines
are in a state of
tension and pull on A.  Because more re pulling on A towards B than those
pulling on A
away from B, we have the phenomena of physical attraction.  Now observe Fig.
3.  Notice
now that the poles are like rather than unlike, more or all lines pull A
away from B; the
phenomena of physical repulsion.

MASS ASSOCIATED WITH LINES OF FORCE IN MOTION
The line of force can be more clearly understood by representing it as a
tube of force or a
long thin cylinder.  Maxwell presented the idea the tension of a tube of
force is
representative of electric force (volts/inch), and in addition to this
tension, there is a
medium through which these tubes pass.  There exists a hydrostatic pressure
against
this media or ether.  The value of this pressure is one half the product of
dielectric and
magnetic density.  Then there is a pressure at right angles to an electric
tube of force.  If
through the growth of a field the tubes of force spread sideways or in
width, the
broadside drag through the medium represents the magnetic reaction to growth
in
intensity of an electric current.  However, if a tube of force is caused to
move endwise, it
will glide through the medium with little or no drag as little surface is
offered.  This
possibly explains why no magnetic field is associated with certain
experiments
performed by Tesla involving the movement of energy with no accompanying
magnetic
field.

INDUCTANCE AS AN ANALOGY TO CAPACITY
Much of the mystery surrounding the workings of capacity can be cleared by
close
examination of inductance and how it can give rise to dielectric phenomena.
Inductance
represents energy storage in space as a magnetic field.  The lines of force
orientate
themselves in close loops surrounding the axis of current flow that has
given rise to
them.  The large the space between this current and its images or
reflections, the more
energy that can be stored in the resulting field.

MECHANISM OF STORING ENERGY MAGNETICALLY
The process of pushing these lines or loops outward, causing them to
stretch,
represents storing energy as in  rubber band. A given current strength will
hold a loop of
force at a given distance from conductor passing current hence no energy
movement.  If
the flow of current increases, energy is absorbed by the field as the loops
are then
pushed outward at a corresponding velocity.  Because energy is in motion an
E.M.F.
must accompany the current flow in order for it to represent power.  The
magnitude of
this EMF exactly corresponds to the velocity of the field.  Then if the
current ceases
changing in magnitude thereby becoming constant, no EMF accompanies it, as
no power
is being absorbed. However, if the current decreases and represents then a
negative
velocity of field as the loops contract.  Because the EMF corresponds
exactly to velocity
it reverses polarity and thereby reverses power so it now moves out of the
field and into
the current.  Since no power is required to maintain a field, only current,
the static or
stationary field, represents stored energy.

THE LIMITS OF ZERO AND INFINITY
Many interesting features of inductance manifest themselves in the two
limiting cases of
trapping the energy or releasing it instantly.  Since the power supply
driving the current
has resistance, when it is switched off the inductance drains its energy
into this
resistance that concerts it into the form of heat.  We will assume a perfect
inductor that
has no self resistance.  If we remove the current supply by shorting the
terminals of the
inductor we have isolated it without interrupting any current.  Since the
collapse of field
produces EMF this EMF will tend to manifest.  However, a short circuit will
not allow an
EMF to develop across it as it is zero resistance by definition.  No EMF can
combine
with current to form power, therefore, the energy will remain in the field.
Any attempt to
collapse forces increased currents which pushes it right back out  This is
one form of
storage of energy.

INSTANT ENERGY RELEASE AS INFINITY
Very interesting (and dangerous) phenomena manifest themselves when the
current path
is interrupted, thereby causing infinite resistance to appear.  In this case
resistance is
best represented by its inverse, conductance.  The conductance is then zero.
Because
the current vanished instantly the field collapses at a velocity approaching
that of light.
As EMF is directly related to velocity of flux, i tends towards infinity.
Very powerful
effects are produced because the field is attempting to maintain current by
producing
whatever EMF required.  If a considerable amount of energy exists, say
several kilowatt
hours* (250 KWH for lightning stroke), the ensuing discharge can produce
most profound
effects and can completely destroy inadequately protected apparatus.
* The energy utilized by an average household in the course of one day.

ANOTHER FORM OF ENERGY APPEARS
Through the rapid discharge of inductance a new force field appears that
reduces the rate
of inductive EMF formation.  This field is also represented by lines of
force but these are
of a different nature than those of magnetism.  These lines of force are not
a
manifestation of current flow but of an electric compression or tension.
This tension is
termed voltage or potential difference.

DIELECTRIC ENERGY STORAGE SPATIALLY DIFFERENT THAN MAGNETIC ENERGY
STORAGE
Unlike magnetism the energy is forced or compressed inwards rather than
outwards.
Dielectric lines of force push inward into internal space and along axis,
rather than
pushed outward broadside to axis as in the magnetic field.  Because the
lines are
mutually repellent certain amounts of broadside or transverse motion can be
expected
but the phenomena is basically longitudinal.  This gives rise to an
interesting paradox
that will be noticed with capacity.  This is that the smaller the space
bounded by the
conducting structure the more energy that can be stored.  This is the exact
opposite of
magnetism.  With magnetism, the units volumes of energy can be though of as
working
in parallel but the unit volumes of energy in association with dielectricity
can be thought
of as working in series.

VOLTAGE IS TO DIELECTRICITY AS CURRENT IS TO MAGNETISM
With inductance the reaction to change of field is the production of
voltage.  The current
is proportionate to the field strength only and not velocity of field.  With
capacity the field
is produced not by current but voltage.  This voltage must be accompanied by
current in
order for power to exist.  The reaction of capacitance to change of applied
force is the
production of current.  The current is directly proportional to the velocity
of field strength.
When voltage increases a reaction current flows into capacitance and thereby
energy
accumulates.  If voltage does not change no current flows and the
capacitance stores the
energy which produced the field.  If the voltage decreases then the reaction
current
reverses and energy flows out of the dielectric field.
As the voltage is withdrawn the compression within the bounded space is
relieved.
When the energy is fully dissipated the lines of force vanish.

AGAIN THE LIMITS ZERO AND INFINITY
Because the power supply which provided charging voltage has internal
conductance,
after it is switched off the current leaking through conductance drains the
dielectric
energy and converts it to heat.  We will assume a perfect capacitance having
no leak
conductance.  If we completely disconnect the voltage supply by open
circuiting the
terminals of the capacitor, no path for current flow exists by definition of
an open circuit.
If the field tends to expand it will tend towards the production of current.
However, an
open circuit will not allow the flow of current as it has zero conductance.
Then any
attempt towards field expansion raises the voltage which pushes the field
back inwards.
Therefore, energy will remain stored in the field. This energy can be drawn
for use at any
time.  This is another form of energy storage.

INSTANT ENERGY RELEASE AS INFINITY
Phenomena of enormous magnitude manifest themselves when the criteria for
voltage or
potential difference is instantly disrupted, as with a short circuit.  The
effect is analogous
with the open circuit of inductive current.  Because the forcing voltage is
instantly
withdrawn the field explodes against the bounding conductors with a velocity
that may
exceed light.  Because the current is directly related to the velocity of
field it jumps to
infinity in its attempt to produce finite voltage across zero resistance.
If considerable
energy had resided in the dielectric force field, again let us say several
KWH the
resulting explosion has almost inconceivable violence and can vaporize a
conductor of
substantial thickness instantly.  Dielectric discharges of great speed and
energy
represent one of the most unpleasant experiences the electrical engineer
encounters in
practice.

ENERGY RETURNS TO MAGNETIC FORM
The powerful currents produced by the sudden expansion of a dielectric field
naturally
give rise to magnetic energy.  The inertia of the magnetic field limits the
rise of current to
a realistic value.  The capacitance dumps all its energy back into the
magnetic field and
the whole process starts over again.  The inverse of the product of magnetic
storage
capacity and dielectric storage capacity represents the frequency or pitch
at which this
energy interchange occurs.  This pitch may or may not contain overtones
depending on
the extent of conductors bounding the energies.

CHARACTERISTIC IMPEDANCE AS REPRESENTATION OF PULSATION OF ENERGY FIELD
The ratio of magnetic storage ability to that of the dielectric is called
the characteristic
impedance.  This gives the ratio of maximum voltage to maximum current in
the
oscillatory structure.  However, as the magnetic energy storage is outward
and the
dielectric storage is inward the total or double energy field pulsates in
shape or size.
The axis of this pulsation of force is the impedance of the system
displaying oscillations
and pulsation occurs at the frequency of oscillation.

ENERGY INTO MATTER
As the voltage or impedance is increased the emphasis is on the inward flux.
If the
impedance is high and rate of change is fast enough (perfect overtone
series), it would
seem possible the compression of the energy would transform it into matter
and the
reconversion of this matter into energy may or may not synchronize with the
cycle of
oscillation.  This is what may be considered supercapacitance, that is,
stable long term
conversion into matter.

MISCONCEPTIONS OF PRESENT THEORY OF CAPACITANCE
The misconception that capacitance is the result of accumulating electrons
has seriously
distorted our view of dielectric phenomena.  Also the theory of the velocity
of light as a
limit of energy flow, while adequate for magnetic force and material
velocity, limits our
ability to visualize or understand certain possibilities in electric
phenomena.  The true
workings of free space capacitance can be best illustrated by the following
example.  It
has been previously stated that dielectric lines of force must terminate on
conductors.
No line of force can end in space.  If we take any conductor and remove it
to the most
remote portion of the universe, no lines of force can extend from this
electrode to other
conductors.  It can have no free space capacity, regardless of the size of
the electrode,
therefore it can store no energy.  This indicates that the free space
capacitance of an
object is the sum mutual capacity of it to all the conducting objects of the
universe.

FREE SPACE INDUCTANCE IS INFINITE
Steinmetz in his book on the general or unified behavior of electricity The
Theory and
Calculation of Transient Electric Phenomena and Oscillation, points out that
the
inductance of any unit length of an isolated filamentary conductor must be
infinite.
Because no image currents exist to contain the magnetic field it can grow to
infinite size.
This large quantity of energy cannot be quickly retrieved due to the finite
velocity of
propagation of the magnetic field.  This gives a non reactive or energy
component to the
inductance which is called electromagnetic radiation.

WORK OF TESLA, STEINMETZ AND FARDAY
In the aforementioned books of Steinmetz he develops some rather unique
equations for
capacity.  Tesla devoted an enormous portion of his efforts to dielectric
phenomena and
made numerous remarkable discoveries in this area.  Much of this work is yet
to be fully
uncovered.  It is my contention that the phenomena of dielectricity is wide
open for
profound discovery.  It is ironic that we have abandoned the lines of force
concept
associated with a phenomena measure in the units called farads after Farady,
whose
insight into forces and fields has led to the possibility of visualization
of the electrical
phenomena.

QUESTION AS TO THE VELOCITY OF DIELECTRIC FLUX
It has been stated that all magnetic lines of force must be closed upon
themselves, and
that all dielectric lines of force must terminate upon a conducting surface.
It can be
inferred from these two basic laws that no line of force can terminate in
free space.  This
created an interesting question as to the state of dielectric flux lines
before the field has
had time to propagate to the neutral conductor.  During this time it would
seem that the
lines of force, not having reached the distant neutral conductor would end
in space at
their advancing wave front.  It could be concluded that either the lines of
force propagate
instantly or always exists and are modified or conjugate space exists within
the same
boundaries as ordinary space.  The properties of lines of force within this
conjugate
space may not obey the laws of normally conceived space.



IMPORTANT REFERENCE MATERIAL

1. Electricity and Matter, J. J. Thompson, New York, l906, Scribner's Sons,
and l904,
Yale University.

2. Elementary Lecture on Electric Discharges, Waves, and Impulses and other
Transients, C. P. Steinmetz, second edition, 1914, McGraw-Hill.

3.  Theory and Calculation of Transient Electric Phenomena and Oscillations,
C. P.
Steinmetz, third edition, l920, McGraw-Hill.  Section III Transients in
Space, Chapter VIII,
Velocity of Propagation of Electric Field.



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov  9 22:03:53 1998
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In a message dated 98-11-09 13:13:20 EST, you write:

>As the y2k event happens within 14 months, I might suggest a simply design
>which might provide a high strength, low cost basic structure, in which a
>basic kit can be built in 24 man hours, at a basic material cost of less than
>$1200, or about $3/sq foot.  The design  is based on the 3 primary lengths;
>unity,square root of 2, and Tau.  I believe that these same primary lengths
>are also  the key to the structure of the aether and eventually can be used
>to
>tap into that energy supply. URL:
>http:ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/robert_conroy

(Due to an HD problem, I can't use a browser until my next trip to the
library...)  Does your design lend itself to a variety of materials? or which
do you favor?  Are forms used that would conduce rapid replication?
Thanks...interesting.  Also see richarda@icx.net, URL of an acquiantence.

Regards, Russ

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov  9 23:54:38 1998
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Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 23:43:36 -0800
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Thomas Spellman <lightspring@jps.net>
Subject: Re: SCIENTIFIC HAVEN--in case it all 'hits the fan'...
Resent-Message-ID: <"C0sBd1.0.5t2.Vy-Hs"@mx1>
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> If you're
>among the latter, please let us know (quickly, please--a cloud of micro-metors
>is due to bombard Earth's satellites "at 50 X the speed of rifle bullets" on
>Nov. 18th).

I'm interested in more details about the community.  What's your address?
Can you give me directions?  Do you have tours, etc?  How many people are
living there now?  How many are interested?

PS  Can you direct me to more info about the meteors please?

Thanks in advance,

Thomas Spellman


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov 10 08:39:28 1998
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Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:34:16 -0800
From: pat weissleader <lizardhaven@zippnet.net>
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To: b25b@LCIA.COM, "freenrg-l@eskimo.com" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Patent Information
References: <001201be0ade$a22984c0$9c298e8b@plassy> <36465A3E.52E53496@zippnet.net> <3647A5F6.4C8C@lcia.com>
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if anyone uses the disclosed ideas commercially, you use the documnt to
prove your prior claim based on the dated disclosure document. in fact
after you have the document you disclose to everyone so it is general
knowledge that you have registered your claim to working the idea.
the only value of a finished patent is that you can sue if someone takes
the idea-the disclosureee documents allows you the same protection when
still working on the invention.

--
Patricia Weissleader at Lizardhaven Ranch
'where the critter meets the glitter'


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov 10 13:07:30 1998
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>The Arc of the Covenant.  (You know, I'm sure, that there's a stone box in
>the king's chamber of the Giza Pyramid that fits the same dimensions.)  I
>read a while ago an internet essay (from a search - I don't have the URL)
>in which the author made his case that the Giza pyramid was a huge power
>plant, splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen - the water was brought up
>from the lower chamber to the boz in the king's chamber.


    That might be Alan Alford's theory from his book "Gods of the New
Millennium".
I'm reading his new one right now (The Phoenix Solution).

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov 10 17:42:19 1998
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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:10:43 +1000
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From: GEOFF EGEL <egel@main.murray.net.au>
Subject: Nylon 66 and how its made
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HI ALL
Some time ago someone on this list wanted to know what Nylon 66
Was. I believe they really meant  nylon 6:6 

I believe JOHN R.R. Searl mentions it in construction of his Levitation disk.
I have also mentioned it twice at my website but until now did not really
know what it was apart from being nylon.


I found out what this is and below is from a high school chemistry book
detailing how it is made.


Lets Experiment  Making  a condensation polymer nylon 6:6

Aim to make nylon 6:6

Apparatus  

100cm^3 breaker
10cm^3 of 5% solution of 1,6- diaminohexine
10cm^3  of 5% solution of adipyl chloride in hexane
glass rod or pair of tweezers  (optional)

Method
1 Place 10cm^3 of the adipylchloride solution in the breaker
Add die to the solution  (if desired)

2 Carefully add the 1,6 diaminohexine solution so that two solution don't mix

3 A small amount of solid will form at the interface of the two liquids.

Using a glass rod or a pair of tweezers pull out a little of this solid and
carefully wind the thread around the rod or tweezer.
The thread will go on forming until the solution is used up.
Nylon forms at the interface between the two organic liquids in the breaker.

Geoff



Geoff

http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/1135
Solaris searching for natures energy sources.

Geoff Egel
18 Sturt Street
Loxton 5333
South Australia
Australia

Phone  (08) (8584 5201)
Usually can be reached hereafter  6 pm local time 
(Monday - Saturday)
Central Australian time
others times you cannot be certain of getting me here.

Like to hear from You,  I expect this to apply only to Australian viewers

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov 10 17:42:56 1998
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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:11:08 +1000
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: GEOFF EGEL <egel@main.murray.net.au>
Subject: water and air motors
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HI ALL
Just added an article about the clem and air/water motors at the solaris
website
you may find interesting. 

http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/1135/clem.html

Geoff

also have found  a photo  of the original Hans Coler device and placed it at
http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/lab/1135/coler.htm

Geoff

http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/1135
Solaris searching for natures energy sources.

Geoff Egel
18 Sturt Street
Loxton 5333
South Australia
Australia

Phone  (08) (8584 5201)
Usually can be reached hereafter  6 pm local time 
(Monday - Saturday)
Central Australian time
others times you cannot be certain of getting me here.

Like to hear from You,  I expect this to apply only to Australian viewers

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov 10 18:08:30 1998
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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:36:06 +1000
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: GEOFF EGEL <egel@main.murray.net.au>
Subject: Re: Cisterns...
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19981109235835.37ff220a@pop3.friend.ly.net>
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At 01:36 PM 11/9/98 -0500, you wrote:
>At 06:06 PM 11/3/98 EST, you wrote:
>>Howdy Again, Bro. Bill--

Most people In Country  Australia  use what we call rainwater tanks to
collect rainwater off their house roofs.
There are problems in doing this the city due to pollution in the rain water
,acid raid for example.
In the country area where I live,
We have a major river passing through our region and even with filtered and
chlorinated water most here think it only fit for washing and then only just.

People who visit and drink the River Murray water here can get very sick.

And besides after payment for the Tanks the water is free and we don't have
to rely on the goverment ultility.
Geoff



>>
>>Cisterns are probably the most expedient method for collecting water; i.e.,
>>via gutters along the roof of existing structures.  Do you still recommend
>>your friend's (brother's?) food-grade plastic 55 gal. drums @ $35?  Have you
>>found another source?
>>
>>
>Hi,
>
>I just picked up six 55 gallon, food grade drums from the local soft drink
>bottling plant for FREE!!! They are not allowed to use them over again and
>have to be shredded and melted down to be recycled.
>
>http://www.geet.com
>
>Bob
>
>+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
>+                                 +
>+   Bob Colvin - GEET of MD/WI    +
>+                                 +
>+  http://www.Friend.ly.Net/GEET  +
>+                                 +
>+      geet@friend.ly.net         +
>+                                 +
>+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
>
>

Geoff

http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/1135
Solaris searching for natures energy sources.

Geoff Egel
18 Sturt Street
Loxton 5333
South Australia
Australia

Phone  (08) (8584 5201)
Usually can be reached hereafter  6 pm local time 
(Monday - Saturday)
Central Australian time
others times you cannot be certain of getting me here.

Like to hear from You,  I expect this to apply only to Australian viewers

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov 10 19:09:28 1998
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From: Keith Nagel <knagel@cnct.com>
Subject: Re: water and air motors
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At 12:11 PM 11/11/98 +1000, you wrote:
>also have found  a photo  of the original Hans Coler device and placed it at
>http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/lab/1135/coler.htm
>
>Geoff

Question:

Where did this photo come from?

K.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov 10 20:56:26 1998
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From: GEOFF EGEL <egel@main.murray.net.au>
Subject: Re: water and air motors
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At 10:14 PM 11/10/98 -0500, you wrote:
>At 12:11 PM 11/11/98 +1000, you wrote:
>>also have found  a photo  of the original Hans Coler device and placed it at
>>http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/lab/1135/coler.htm
>>
>>Geoff
>
>Question:
>
>Where did this photo come from?
>
>K.
>
>came from a video archive on german ufo's afraid its the only photo there
was of this device.

Geoff

http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/1135
Solaris searching for natures energy sources.

Geoff Egel
18 Sturt Street
Loxton 5333
South Australia
Australia

Phone  (08) (8584 5201)
Usually can be reached hereafter  6 pm local time 
(Monday - Saturday)
Central Australian time
others times you cannot be certain of getting me here.

Like to hear from You,  I expect this to apply only to Australian viewers

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Nov 11 00:31:03 1998
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Dear Chris, 

Please do, let me once again, offer my apologies for not responding more
promptly.  I have been working in electrochemical systems for over thirty
years now, and have come in some ways, to detest the heavy mechanics
involved with the systems that I see, of both Myers and Horvath. Let me be
fair, they both work but at the cost of simplicity.  In the welders that
Brown and in many of my designs we shied away from noble or exotic metals
in their construction. One, there are expensive to buy, and two, they are
hard to find. In the case of the welders made in Australia we chose simple
mild steel.  The efficiency losses of some 5%, we feel were a good trade
off, fore they were easy to maintain, easy to replace, and a cost effective
substitution of conventional materials. With a bit higher cost, normal
stainless steel will recover about half of the lost efficiencies over mild
steel. Actually, some day I hope to develop a graphite/carbon plate system,
money providing.

In the Horvath system he violates one of the principles of electrolyses,
that of plate spacing or "Proximity".

I may as well give you a project that easily makes this point of design,
clear. I do hope you will take these suggested experiments seriously and
try them out so that you see for your self, the validity of my claims.
Also, If I can get you on the same page, more or less, we can share more
clearly, new or more complex ideas, as we then have a common frame of
reference.

You will need:
Table salt
A, 6 Volt battery, like the kind for a lantern
A few feet of wire
A plastic bowl of some depth
And two thin strips of sheet metal

Solder a good connection of wire to each of the plates or strips of sheet
metal. Attach the other end of the wires to the poles of the battery, one
positive, one negative. Fill the bowl with normal tape water, add a
teaspoon or so of salt, and dip the electrodes into the water.  Now move
them back and forth, bringing them closer or farther apart, with the flat
sides oriented to face each other.  You will see that if you move them more
than a half an inch from each other, the bubbling at the plates, stops or
slows down greatly. At about, 3/8 inch, to about 1/4 inch, the production
is at about 90% of that that can be expected by closer spacing.  Although
you can move the plated closer together, you run the risk of shorting out
the system. 

Play around a bit, turn one plate perpendicular to the other. You will see
that only the lead edge, closest to the flat plate, generates a
concentration. If you have a hart time seeing the quantity of action at the
plates, try 12 volts, or 18 volts.  Voltage can and does compensate for
wider plate spacing, but at a high cost in efficiency. Point of safety,
Table salt will emit chlorine gas when electrolyzed so don't put you face
right over the test. This is a good thing when you want to commercially
electrolyze seawater, because you can chill and capture the clarion gas,
and sell it.

Now think back the scalloped plates of the in the Horvath cell. Where would
the greatest efficiencies be, At the edges. In an effort to maintain
matching plate area he sacrifices efficiencies by ignoring the lessons of
plate proximity.

In both Myers work and Horvath there are counting on a long standing
theory, of a pulsed power supply.

WHY?

The principle that they are seeking is what is called the "coasting ion"
theory, proposed at around the turn of the century.

The theory goes something like this.  At the atomic level where
electrolyses takes place, the distances that an ionized particle must
travel to reach the other palate is relatively, like us going from here to
the sun. Great relative distances must be crossed, plate to plate. The idea
of pulsing the current comes in when you imagine an unstable water
molecule, loosing the oxygen atom at one plate, then the hydrogen racing
back through the vast space to then be released at the opposite pole. Once
destabilized, and with a small sustaining charge, the atoms should just
coast toward the polar opposite, so why push them harder with higher
voltages than is needed. Push and coast, push and coast. Pulsed voltages is
then supposed to offer higher advantages of efficiencies.

If this is true then Horvath violates any hope of greater efficiencies by
having the varied plate spacing involved in the concave or scalloped, plate
face. He just asked the ionized material to cross ten light years of space
rather than one.

Myers designs violate another prime principle, that of matching plate area.
 In his design, he has concentric sleeves in electrolyte. If he was doing
his work right, he will see that matching plate areas are important. For
one reason or another, matching plate size is important. Horvath
understood, and is why he scalloped his interior plate in the first place.
You can test this also by trying deferring size plates in your little test
tub.

Next, is an issue of plate faces, try making up some plates of various
surfacing. Rough one with sand paper, make one set smooth with fine Emory
Cloth, and polish another set with fine polishing compound. Clean each with
alcohol and vinegar, then test each set.  You should see that the smooth
plates let the bubbles go easier, that way making room for more direct
contact.

We used heavy, welding transformer cores, for our power supplies, with
rectified output to get the DC current, and we could not understand how,
when we took prototypes from the bench top, to the in chaise mounted
design, how we were getting about 1/3 better efficiencies.  Not until we
placed our hand on the heavily vibrating enclosure.  We were just agitating
the plates so that the bubbles were bounced off the surface sooner, thus
making available, more surface area, sooner.  We were just breaking down
the capillary effect of the bubbles sticking to the plate face.  Some way
to get find a 30% breakthrough in efficiencies?

I hope this gives you some answers about the basics of electrolyses.

More to follow.

All the best

TR Knudtson


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From: mindtech@nor.com.au
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>Audio oscillators, or audio-frequency radio oscillators?
>

An oscillator that produces audio frequencies, I believe. Probably variable
and tuned by dowsing. This was his specialty.

>I'm also wondering whether it could have been a mental effect, but I have
>the Hutchinson Effect in mind too.
>

May have just been his own subjective response. I don't know if others
witnessed it. De La Warr labs in the UK might have records of this. They
are the repository for his work.

Peter

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Nov 11 05:55:27 1998
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From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" <jdo@UCALGARY.CA>
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To: GEOFF EGEL <egel@main.murray.net.au>
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Geoff: Although we live in a major urban center, we do not use city water.
We collect our rain water into concrete cisterns and do NOT use chlorine
due to serious health concerns. We use slow sand filters instead and UV.
We are presently making a mock-up of a "zapper" (Dr. Hulda Clarke) for
killing any potential pathogens, viruses, bacteria, etc. according to
frequency. We also reuse our greywater. No need for the city sewer line.
But we have not yet decided which O/U device (for co-generation) we should
use to illustrate ZPE technology of the future. Jorg Ostrowski 
__________________________________________________________________________
On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, GEOFF EGEL wrote:
> 
> Most people In Country  Australia  use what we call rainwater tanks to
> collect rainwater off their house roofs.
> There are problems in doing this the city due to pollution in the rain water
> ,acid raid for example.
> In the country area where I live,
> We have a major river passing through our region and even with filtered and
> chlorinated water most here think it only fit for washing and then only just.
> And besides after payment for the Tanks the water is free and we don't have
> to rely on the goverment ultility.
> >>
> >>Cisterns are probably the most expedient method for collecting water; i.e.,
> >>via gutters along the roof of existing structures.  Do you still recommend
> >>your friend's (brother's?) food-grade plastic 55 gal. drums @ $35?  Have you
> >>found another source?
> >>
> >>
> >Hi,
> >
> >I just picked up six 55 gallon, food grade drums from the local soft drink
> >bottling plant for FREE!!! They are not allowed to use them over again and
> >have to be shredded and melted down to be recycled.
> >
> >http://www.geet.com
> >
> >Bob
> >
> >+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
> >+                                 +
> >+   Bob Colvin - GEET of MD/WI    +
> >+                                 +
> >+  http://www.Friend.ly.Net/GEET  +
> >+                                 +
> >+      geet@friend.ly.net         +
> >+                                 +
> >+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
> >
> >
> 
> Geoff
> 
> http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/1135
> Solaris searching for natures energy sources.
> 
> Geoff Egel
> 18 Sturt Street
> Loxton 5333
> South Australia
> Australia
> 
> Phone  (08) (8584 5201)
> Usually can be reached hereafter  6 pm local time 
> (Monday - Saturday)
> Central Australian time
> others times you cannot be certain of getting me here.
> 
> Like to hear from You,  I expect this to apply only to Australian viewers
> 
> 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Nov 11 12:09:53 1998
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From: "Marcelo Puhl" <mark@plug-in.com.br>
Organization: Huh?
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 14:10:43 -2
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Subject: Re: water and air motors
Reply-to: mark@plug-in.com.br
Priority: normal
In-reply-to: <3.0.5.32.19981111150128.008cd700@main.murray.net.au>
References: <3.0.32.19981110221405.00b7d640@cnct.com>
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> >At 12:11 PM 11/11/98 +1000, you wrote:
> >>also have found  a photo  of the original Hans Coler device and placed it at
> >>http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/lab/1135/coler.htm
> >>
> >>Geoff
> >
> >Question:
> >
> >Where did this photo come from?
> >
> >K.
> >
> >came from a video archive on german ufo's afraid its the only photo there
> was of this device.
> 
> Geoff
> 

You can see a better picture at :

http://www.ctv.es/USERS/vramos/home.htm


---
Marcelo Puhl
mark@plug-in.com.br

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Nov 11 13:39:09 1998
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From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Vicente_Jos=E9_Ramos_Orenga?=" <vramos@ctv.es>
To: <mark@plug-in.com.br>, <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: water and air motors
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:16:15 +0100
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Hi all,
Sorry, but my server crashed ... I'll place my web page again in a few
days...
This NOT IS the original Coler device. Is a reproduction by George Hattaway.
I think the two big coils were one inside other in the original device.
Other: you can see the magnets attached to the coils, and really the coil
core is the magnet!!!
Vicente.

-----Mensaje original-----
De: Marcelo Puhl <mark@plug-in.com.br>
Para: freenrg-l@eskimo.com <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Fecha: miércoles, 11 de noviembre de 1998 21:12
Asunto: Re: water and air motors


> >At 12:11 PM 11/11/98 +1000, you wrote:
> >>also have found  a photo  of the original Hans Coler device and placed
it at
> >>http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/lab/1135/coler.htm
> >>
> >>Geoff
> >
> >Question:
> >
> >Where did this photo come from?
> >
> >K.
> >
> >came from a video archive on german ufo's afraid its the only photo there
> was of this device.
>
> Geoff
>

You can see a better picture at :

http://www.ctv.es/USERS/vramos/home.htm


---
Marcelo Puhl
mark@plug-in.com.br



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Nov 11 16:37:22 1998
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From: HLafonte@aol.com
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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:26:48 EST
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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Hi all,
 I have been working to find out if  "hard ferro magnetic" steel, that is,
steel that will hold it's magnetized state when removed from the magnetic
field that magnetized it, can be neutralized (left with no poles established)
as it nears the stator of a magneto. As you know when a magnet (rotor) nears
the stator and the circuit of the stator's coil is closed, a magnetic field of
opposite politiary is induced into the core of the stator by the coil. I
wonder if this force causes a repelling force on the rotor's magnet or does it
just reduce the amount of flux that is allowed to pass thru the stators core.
I also wonder if the placement of coils on the ends of the stator core can
change this reduction to an actual repulsion force between the rotor magnet
and stator core? If a repulsion force can be made to act on a "hard ferro-
magnetic steel" type rotor, then could the steel be made to become neutral,
that is, not have established poles as it lined up with the stator buy
controlling the current in the stator's core? This would open up all kinds of
possibilties for over unity design in electrical generators and motors as the
steel rotor would move away from the stator without an attraction force trying
to keep the two lined up.
  I did a few tests and measured the force over a distance when a rotor is
allowed to be pulled to a stator with the coil circuit open. Then with the
circuit closed, the force over distance decreased as the amount of current
allowed to flow in the coil was increased. I am running tests now to reach a
point where the current flow is high enough in the coil that the attraction
force of the rotor magnet is countered buy an equal and opposite force in the
stator. I want to see if the "hard ferro-magnetic steel" rotor will become
neutral, that is, not have any north or south poles established at this point.
If so, then the rotor could leave the stator free of attraction force
("drag"). This would be an over unity operation. I call it "self neutralizing"
because it would use it's own energy to bring itself to a neutral state.
  I have a design for this theory on my web site at:
<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/HLafonte/lafonteresearchsite1web.html">
HLafonte's Home Page</A> or, 
http://members.aol.com/HLafonte/lafonteresearchsite1web.html
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Nov 11 21:15:47 1998
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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:36:57 -0500
To: trknute@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: Hydroxy research
Cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, KeelyNet@DallasTexas.net
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981109063247.008b1c10@earthlink.net>
References: <199811110513.AAA00964@juliet.its.uwo.ca>
 <3.0.5.32.19981108083640.008b3d30@earthlink.net>
 <199811100454.XAA24844@romeo.its.uwo.ca>
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Dear TR,

I can't thank you enough for just this type of hard earned & succinct info.
Your post answered so many of my questions. I will do these experiments &
get back to you soon. See other comments below.

Thanks again,

Chris

At 06:32 AM 11/9/98 -0800, you wrote:
[snip]
>
>We used heavy, welding transformer cores, for our power supplies, with
>rectified output to get the DC current, and we could not understand how,
>when we took prototypes from the bench top, to the in chaise mounted
>design, how we were getting about 1/3 better efficiencies.  Not until we
>placed our hand on the heavily vibrating enclosure.  We were just agitating
>the plates so that the bubbles were bounced off the surface sooner, thus
>making available, more surface area, sooner.  We were just breaking down
>the capillary effect of the bubbles sticking to the plate face.  Some way
>to get find a 30% breakthrough in efficiencies?
>

>From George Wiseman's tape it appears that the Chinese Brown's welder
(BN200?) did not use a transformer but instead an appropriate number of
series cells were run directly form the grid via rectifiers - assume this
machine was not as efficient as the ones housed with xformers?

Treating water with magnets might also give different results. I believe
this is also mentioned in the Horvath patent. I have been experimenting
with the effects on water for improving taste. Blind tests have shown
definite change in taste etc. once I get a good feel for these cells I will
pursue this avenue as magnets are another interest of mine.

>I hope this gives you some answers about the basics of electrolyses.
>

It certainly did.

>More to follow.
>
Looking forword to it.

>All the best
>
>TR Knudtson
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Nov 12 01:25:54 1998
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From: Duncan Purvis <dpurvis@scigen.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 8:35:17 +0000
To: mbgupta@julian.uwo.ca
Cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, KeelyNet@dallastexas.net
Subject: Re[2]: Hydroxy research
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Chris

Please could you elaborate on your experiments with magnets and water taste.

Thanks 

Duncan


Treating water with magnets might also give different results. I believe this is also mentioned in the Horvath patent. I have been experimenting with the effects on water for improving taste. Blind tests have shown definite change in taste etc. once I get

 a good feel for these cells I will pursue this avenue as magnets are another interest of mine.

------------------------------------------------------------
Scientific Generics Limited  Tel: +44 1223 875200
Harston Mill                 Fax: +44 1223 875201
Harston
Cambridge
CB2 5NH
United Kingdom               http://www.generics.co.uk
------------------------------------------------------------


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Nov 12 02:40:09 1998
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Subject: Re: Hydroxy research tests ! DC works best !
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Hi All

due to TR has posted some infos on his electrolysis
research, I tried yeasterday a few experiments
with my function generator...

I just used 2 cables of wire sticking into a tap water
glas and tried the electrolysis with different frequencies.

When I used square, sine or ramp wave, just AC, there was no
electrolysis,
also whatever frequencies I used from 1 to 100 Khz !
Also voltages 1 to 10 Volts Peek to peek, no bubbles !

The only time , when you get bubbles is, when you superimpose
a DC voltage for at least 5 to 10 Volts DC.
But it seems the superimposed AC is not important !
There is also no special freqeuency, that makes it more
efficient... at least in my small experiment !

It seems, normal DC has the most effect to produce gas !

Also I could verify, that the more gas bubbles are produced
as nearer you bring the wires ( plates) to each other !
so, only 1 mm distance seems to be best !

So I don´t know, if Stanley Meyer really could use special AC
to knock of more gas out of the TAP water...
It seems DC works best ! (at least in my samll experiment !)

Regards, Stefan.



> 
> Dear TR,
> 
> I can't thank you enough for just this type of hard earned & succinct info.
> Your post answered so many of my questions. I will do these experiments &
> get back to you soon. See other comments below.
> 
> Thanks again,
> 
> Chris
> 
> At 06:32 AM 11/9/98 -0800, you wrote:
> [snip]
> >
> >We used heavy, welding transformer cores, for our power supplies, with
> >rectified output to get the DC current, and we could not understand how,
> >when we took prototypes from the bench top, to the in chaise mounted
> >design, how we were getting about 1/3 better efficiencies.  Not until we
> >placed our hand on the heavily vibrating enclosure.  We were just agitating
> >the plates so that the bubbles were bounced off the surface sooner, thus
> >making available, more surface area, sooner.  We were just breaking down
> >the capillary effect of the bubbles sticking to the plate face.  Some way
> >to get find a 30% breakthrough in efficiencies?
> >
> 
> >From George Wiseman's tape it appears that the Chinese Brown's welder
> (BN200?) did not use a transformer but instead an appropriate number of
> series cells were run directly form the grid via rectifiers - assume this
> machine was not as efficient as the ones housed with xformers?
> 
> Treating water with magnets might also give different results. I believe
> this is also mentioned in the Horvath patent. I have been experimenting
> with the effects on water for improving taste. Blind tests have shown
> definite change in taste etc. once I get a good feel for these cells I will
> pursue this avenue as magnets are another interest of mine.
> 
> >I hope this gives you some answers about the basics of electrolyses.
> >
> 
> It certainly did.
> 
> >More to follow.
> >
> Looking forword to it.
> 
> >All the best
> >
> >TR Knudtson
> >
> >


--
Hartmann Multimedia Service,  Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
Tel: ++ 49 30-345 00 497  FAX: ++ 49 30-345 00 498
email: harti@harti.com  Web site: http://www.harti.com
http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB !

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Nov 12 03:31:14 1998
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From: Duncan Purvis <dpurvis@scigen.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 11:26:31 +0000
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re[2]: Hydroxy research tests ! DC works best !
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Probably the best way to vibrate the plates would be to use small inexpensive piezoelectric devices attached to the electrodes,which vibrate at the frequency of an applied AC.

Duncan


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Hydroxy research tests ! DC works best !
Author:  MIME:Stefan Hartmann <harti@harti.com> at INTERNET
Date:    12/11/98 11:00



Hi All

due to TR has posted some infos on his electrolysis research, I tried yeasterday a few experiments
with my function generator...

I just used 2 cables of wire sticking into a tap water
glas and tried the electrolysis with different frequencies.

When I used square, sine or ramp wave, just AC, there was no electrolysis,
also whatever frequencies I used from 1 to 100 Khz ! Also voltages 1 to 10 Volts Peek to peek, no bubbles !

The only time , when you get bubbles is, when you superimpose a DC voltage for at least 5 to 10 Volts DC.
But it seems the superimposed AC is not important ! There is also no special freqeuency, that makes it more efficient... at least in my small experiment !

It seems, normal DC has the most effect to produce gas !

Also I could verify, that the more gas bubbles are produced as nearer you bring the wires ( plates) to each other !
so, only 1 mm distance seems to be best !

So I don´t know, if Stanley Meyer really could use special AC to knock of more gas out of the TAP water...
It seems DC works best ! (at least in my samll experiment !)

Regards, Stefan.



> > Dear TR,
> > I can't thank you enough for just this type of hard earned & succinct info.
> Your post answered so many of my questions. I will do these experiments & > get back to you soon. See other comments below.
> > Thanks again,
> > Chris
> > At 06:32 AM 11/9/98 -0800, you wrote: > [snip]
> >
> >We used heavy, welding transformer cores, for our power supplies, with
> >rectified output to get the DC current, and we could not understand how, > >when we took prototypes from the bench top, to the in chaise mounted
> >design, how we were getting about 1/3 better efficiencies.  Not until we
> >placed our hand on the heavily vibrating enclosure.  We were just agitating > >the plates so that the bubbles were bounced off the surface sooner, thus
> >making available, more surface area, sooner.  We were just breaking down > >the capillary effect of the bubbles sticking to the plate face.  Some way > >to get find a 30% breakthrough in efficiencies?
> >
> > >From George Wiseman's tape it appears that the Chinese Brown's welder > (BN200?) did not use a transformer but instead an appropriate number of
> series cells were run directly form the grid via rectifiers - assume this > machine was not as efficient as the ones housed with xformers?
> > Treating water with magnets might also give different results. I believe > this is also mentioned in the Horvath patent. I have been experimenting
> with the effects on water for improving taste. Blind tests have shown
> definite change in taste etc. once I get a good feel for these cells I will > pursue this avenue as magnets are another interest of mine.
> > >I hope this gives you some answers about the basics of electrolyses. > >
> > It certainly did.
> > >More to follow.
> >
> Looking forword to it.
> > >All the best
> >
> >TR Knudtson
> >
> >


--
Hartmann Multimedia Service,  Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
Tel: ++ 49 30-345 00 497  FAX: ++ 49 30-345 00 498 email: harti@harti.com  Web site: http://www.harti.com http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB !


------------------------------------------------------------
Scientific Generics Limited  Tel: +44 1223 875200
Harston Mill                 Fax: +44 1223 875201
Harston
Cambridge
CB2 5NH
United Kingdom               http://www.generics.co.uk
------------------------------------------------------------


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Nov 12 04:36:25 1998
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From: "David Callaghan" <DCallaghan@CallaghanSystems.Demon.Co.Uk>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: [Off Topic] Pyramids
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 12:31:57 -0000
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Hi All

Does anyone have any information about the geometry of Egyptian pyramids?

Best regards

David Callaghan


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Nov 12 05:06:02 1998
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From: "David Callaghan" <DCallaghan@CallaghanSystems.Demon.Co.Uk>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Hydroxy research tests ! DC works best !
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 13:01:07 -0000
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Hi Stefan and All

-----Original Message-----
From: Stefan Hartmann <harti@harti.com>
>So I don´t know, if Stanley Meyer really could use special AC
>to knock of more gas out of the TAP water...
>It seems DC works best ! (at least in my samll experiment !)


Stanley Meyer probably used 'shifted' AC as used in electroplating to
protect the electrodes.  This can be accomplished with an AC supply with a
diode and resistor in parallel.  The diode passes nearly all the forward
current and blocks the reverse current, whilst the resistor passes a small
amount of the reverse current, resulting in a waveform with the zero cross
being 10% of the p-p value.  This should also minimise bubble formation on
the electrodes.  You can reliably charge 'dry' batteries such a Duracells'
using this method.

I have not yet got near finishing my experimental setup but try 'charging'
the water with a quick pulse of forward current at around 1500V (I think -
it's a hacked camera flash), then a slower (1 second) pulse of reverse
current at around 5V and repeat.  This gives me more fizz than the 5V pulse
alone.  (  Very scientific eh :-)   )

Best regards

David Callaghan




From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Nov 12 05:51:15 1998
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From: "Nuver, Eric" <Eric.Nuver@att-unisource.com>
To: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Re[2]: Hydroxy research tests ! DC works best !
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 14:43:06 +0100
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Either that or simply attaching the voice coil of a medium sized
loudspeaker to vibrate the housing, whilst fed by a low voltage 50 or 60
Hz AC source might also work.

Cheers,
Eric
>----------
>From: 	Duncan Purvis[SMTP:dpurvis@scigen.co.uk]
>Sent: 	Thursday, November 12, 1998 12:26 PM
>To: 	freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: 	Re[2]: Hydroxy research tests ! DC works best !
>
>Probably the best way to vibrate the plates would be to use small inexpensive
>piezoelectric devices attached to the electrodes,which vibrate at the
>frequency of an applied AC.
>
>Duncan
>
>
>______________________________ Reply Separator
>_________________________________
>Subject: Re: Hydroxy research tests ! DC works best !
>Author:  MIME:Stefan Hartmann <harti@harti.com> at INTERNET
>Date:    12/11/98 11:00
>
>
>
>Hi All
>
>due to TR has posted some infos on his electrolysis research, I tried
>yeasterday a few experiments
>with my function generator...
>
>I just used 2 cables of wire sticking into a tap water
>glas and tried the electrolysis with different frequencies.
>
>When I used square, sine or ramp wave, just AC, there was no electrolysis,
>also whatever frequencies I used from 1 to 100 Khz ! Also voltages 1 to 10
>Volts Peek to peek, no bubbles !
>
>The only time , when you get bubbles is, when you superimpose a DC voltage
>for at least 5 to 10 Volts DC.
>But it seems the superimposed AC is not important ! There is also no special
>freqeuency, that makes it more efficient... at least in my small experiment !
>
>It seems, normal DC has the most effect to produce gas !
>
>Also I could verify, that the more gas bubbles are produced as nearer you
>bring the wires ( plates) to each other !
>so, only 1 mm distance seems to be best !
>
>So I don´t know, if Stanley Meyer really could use special AC to knock of
>more gas out of the TAP water...
>It seems DC works best ! (at least in my samll experiment !)
>
>Regards, Stefan.
>
>
>
>> > Dear TR,
>> > I can't thank you enough for just this type of hard earned & succinct
>>info.
>> Your post answered so many of my questions. I will do these experiments & >
>>get back to you soon. See other comments below.
>> > Thanks again,
>> > Chris
>> > At 06:32 AM 11/9/98 -0800, you wrote: > [snip]
>> >
>> >We used heavy, welding transformer cores, for our power supplies, with
>> >rectified output to get the DC current, and we could not understand how, >
>>>when we took prototypes from the bench top, to the in chaise mounted
>> >design, how we were getting about 1/3 better efficiencies.  Not until we
>> >placed our hand on the heavily vibrating enclosure.  We were just
>>agitating > >the plates so that the bubbles were bounced off the surface
>>sooner, thus
>> >making available, more surface area, sooner.  We were just breaking down >
>>>the capillary effect of the bubbles sticking to the plate face.  Some way >
>>>to get find a 30% breakthrough in efficiencies?
>> >
>> > >From George Wiseman's tape it appears that the Chinese Brown's welder >
>>(BN200?) did not use a transformer but instead an appropriate number of
>> series cells were run directly form the grid via rectifiers - assume this >
>>machine was not as efficient as the ones housed with xformers?
>> > Treating water with magnets might also give different results. I believe
>>> this is also mentioned in the Horvath patent. I have been experimenting
>> with the effects on water for improving taste. Blind tests have shown
>> definite change in taste etc. once I get a good feel for these cells I will
>>> pursue this avenue as magnets are another interest of mine.
>> > >I hope this gives you some answers about the basics of electrolyses. > >
>> > It certainly did.
>> > >More to follow.
>> >
>> Looking forword to it.
>> > >All the best
>> >
>> >TR Knudtson
>> >
>> >
>
>
>--
>Hartmann Multimedia Service,  Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann Keplerstr. 11 B,
>10589 Berlin, Germany
>Tel: ++ 49 30-345 00 497  FAX: ++ 49 30-345 00 498 email: harti@harti.com
>Web site: http://www.harti.com http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB !
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>Scientific Generics Limited  Tel: +44 1223 875200
>Harston Mill                 Fax: +44 1223 875201
>Harston
>Cambridge
>CB2 5NH
>United Kingdom               http://www.generics.co.uk
>------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Nov 12 06:47:18 1998
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From: Charlie Hodgson <chuck@cougar.ssi.stratus.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 09:03:14 -0500
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Hydroxy research tests - things to remember
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I've been following these posts and offer some things to think about as
you experiment and analyse your results.

 1/ Water is an insulator. Any contuctance is due to disolved ionic
     components (minerals, etc). Voltage needed to induce the
     breakdown of water will vary based upon what is in your water.

     Choice of voltages and currents is important, since different
     reactions will occur at different values. You can wind up with
     a soup of some pretty funky compounds. The metal from
     your electrodes will react with the salts in the water. Notice
     your water turning green? (Cu + NaCl -> CuCl + Na ; 
     2Na + 2H2O -> 2NaOH + H2 + heat; 
     2H2 + (atmosperic) O2 + heat -> 2H20

  2/ 'More Fizz' does not neccessarily mean more hydroxy. Many,
      many things can be fizzing off of your electrodes. In order to 
      tell, you need to capture the gas. Excuse me if this has been
      covered already. Take an inverted test tube, filled with water,
      and place in the water. Take the electrode and stick it in the 
      test tube. The produced gas will collect in the test tube, 
      displacing the water.

 3/ If you collect pure O2 or H2 (if memory servers me, one will
    be produced on one electrode, the other on the other). The 
    test would be to place place a lighted match (with long stick)
    into the inverted tube. The flame should go out an re-ignite
    when removed. The tube with the H2 will 'pop' if some of the
    gas is allowed to escape and come in contact with the flame.
    (this is due to mixing with athmospheric O2). The O2 side 
    will show no such behavior.

    I'm not certain how to test for OH, though y'all have a reason 
    to produce it, so I presume you can test for it. I would suspect
    that 4OH + spark = 2H2O + O2. So, a match to the gas would
    cause it ignite  totaly, including what is in the tube.

    I've always thought that the reaction was 2H2O -> H2 + 2O2.


Quetions I have: 
   How stable is OH? 
   What type of bounding allows it to stay as OH?

   
Anyhow, have fun.




-Charlie-


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Nov 12 11:39:59 1998
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Hydroxy research tests ! DC works best !
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I don't care if you call it Fizz, frizzel, or fomies, just keep up the good
work!!!!!  (Smile)

All the best
TR Knudtson


At 01:01 PM 11/12/98 -0000, you wrote:
>Hi Stefan and All
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Stefan Hartmann <harti@harti.com>
>>So I don´t know, if Stanley Meyer really could use special AC
>>to knock of more gas out of the TAP water...
>>It seems DC works best ! (at least in my samll experiment !)
>
>
>Stanley Meyer probably used 'shifted' AC as used in electroplating to
>protect the electrodes.  This can be accomplished with an AC supply with a
>diode and resistor in parallel.  The diode passes nearly all the forward
>current and blocks the reverse current, whilst the resistor passes a small
>amount of the reverse current, resulting in a waveform with the zero cross
>being 10% of the p-p value.  This should also minimise bubble formation on
>the electrodes.  You can reliably charge 'dry' batteries such a Duracells'
>using this method.
>
>I have not yet got near finishing my experimental setup but try 'charging'
>the water with a quick pulse of forward current at around 1500V (I think -
>it's a hacked camera flash), then a slower (1 second) pulse of reverse
>current at around 5V and repeat.  This gives me more fizz than the 5V pulse
>alone.  (  Very scientific eh :-)   )
>
>Best regards
>
>David Callaghan
>
>
>
>
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Nov 12 11:55:24 1998
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Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 05:24:18 -0800
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Hydroxy research tests - things to remember
In-Reply-To: <199811121445.JAA002.94@cougar.ssi.stratus.com>
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NO! NO! NO!  Never let a spark come into contact with Hydroxy, except in
the most controlled circumstances!!!!!!   NO! Never! Huh-ah! Hindi! Nine!
Nicht! Absolutely not! DONT!

Contained in any way, pound for pound, Hydroxy is the most powerful
explosive on earth!!!!!!!!!!!  And, this potential is geometrically
proportional to pressure. See Boles laws of gasses under pressure.

Seriously!

TR Knudtson

Please read my web posting



http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/freenrg/hydroxy.html





At 09:03 AM 11/12/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>I've been following these posts and offer some things to think about as
>you experiment and analyse your results.
>
> 1/ Water is an insulator. Any contuctance is due to disolved ionic
>     components (minerals, etc). Voltage needed to induce the
>     breakdown of water will vary based upon what is in your water.
>
>     Choice of voltages and currents is important, since different
>     reactions will occur at different values. You can wind up with
>     a soup of some pretty funky compounds. The metal from
>     your electrodes will react with the salts in the water. Notice
>     your water turning green? (Cu + NaCl -> CuCl + Na ; 
>     2Na + 2H2O -> 2NaOH + H2 + heat; 
>     2H2 + (atmosperic) O2 + heat -> 2H20
>
>  2/ 'More Fizz' does not neccessarily mean more hydroxy. Many,
>      many things can be fizzing off of your electrodes. In order to 
>      tell, you need to capture the gas. Excuse me if this has been
>      covered already. Take an inverted test tube, filled with water,
>      and place in the water. Take the electrode and stick it in the 
>      test tube. The produced gas will collect in the test tube, 
>      displacing the water.
>
> 3/ If you collect pure O2 or H2 (if memory servers me, one will
>    be produced on one electrode, the other on the other). The 
>    test would be to place place a lighted match (with long stick)
>    into the inverted tube. The flame should go out an re-ignite
>    when removed. The tube with the H2 will 'pop' if some of the
>    gas is allowed to escape and come in contact with the flame.
>    (this is due to mixing with athmospheric O2). The O2 side 
>    will show no such behavior.
>
>    I'm not certain how to test for OH, though y'all have a reason 
>    to produce it, so I presume you can test for it. I would suspect
>    that 4OH + spark = 2H2O + O2. So, a match to the gas would
>    cause it ignite  totaly, including what is in the tube.
>
>    I've always thought that the reaction was 2H2O -> H2 + 2O2.
>
>
>Quetions I have: 
>   How stable is OH? 
>   What type of bounding allows it to stay as OH?
>
>   
>Anyhow, have fun.
>
>
>
>
>-Charlie-
>
>
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Nov 12 12:13:32 1998
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From: "dwenbert" <dwenbert@spacey.net>
To: <leoguitar@vossnet.de>, <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Cc: <trknute@earthlink.net>, <KeelyNet@DallasTexas.net>,
        "Jean Louis Naudin" <jnaudin509@aol.com>,
        "Fred Epps" <fepps@halcyon.com>, "Tim Vaughan" <tv@juno.com>,
        "Dieter Bauer" <bauer_d@FHI-Berlin.MPG.DE>
Subject: Re: Hydroxy research tests ! DC works best !
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 15:07:13 -0500
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Stephan Wrote:

>due to TR has posted some infos on his electrolysis
>research, I tried yeasterday a few experiments
>with my function generator...
>I just used 2 cables of wire sticking into a tap water
>glas and tried the electrolysis with different frequencies.
>When I used square, sine or ramp wave, just AC, there was no
>electrolysis,


All of the Meyer/Brown/etc. work was evidently done with DC only, however,
it was PULSED DC.

>also whatever frequencies I used from 1 to 100 Khz !
>Also voltages 1 to 10 Volts Peek to peek, no bubbles !
>The only time , when you get bubbles is, when you superimpose
>a DC voltage for at least 5 to 10 Volts DC.
>But it seems the superimposed AC is not important !
>There is also no special freqeuency, that makes it more
>efficient... at least in my small experiment !


Try a continuous 10 volt DC at 6 Amps, with a superimposed DC voltage spike
at frequencies between 9 and 15 Khz (without crossing neutral).   The
amperage of the spike is unimportant.   Be careful of polarity.   Do not
interrupt the continuous current from source "A" when you apply the pulsed
HV spikes from source "B".

>It seems, normal DC has the most effect to produce gas !
>Also I could verify, that the more gas bubbles are produced
>as nearer you bring the wires ( plates) to each other !
>so, only 1 mm distance seems to be best !

Yes, as you decrease the separation distance, the voltage gradient becomes
sharper, biasing the intervening water more intensely.   Evidently, Meyer
used 1 mm as the distance in his later work.

>So I don´t know, if Stanley Meyer really could use special AC
>to knock of more gas out of the TAP water...
>It seems DC works best ! (at least in my samll experiment !)


There appears to be no evidence Meyer ever used any AC in his experiments.
It was Direct Current, pulsed at 9 Khz to 15 Khz, around various key
frequencies, as elucidated by Danforth and others.   And, yes, TAP water is
correct; apparently Meyer concluded that salts absorb/dissapate the applied
voltage potential, releasing it in lieu of the water molecules; they also
may interfere with the molecular resonance he attempted to stimulate in the
cavity of the water capacity as the DC pulse propagates through the
electrolyte.


Stephan, we are preparing to do some experiments here along just these
lines, and I would be greatly interested in what you do next in this arena.
I anticpate that we will experiment with the DC frequencies [purportedly]
used by Meyer, as well as rectified microwave induction at the 2.4Ghz and
22Ghz peaks of the water molecule's absorption (using a common magnetron
tube).

This avenue has advantages over the self-inducing dynamo technologies, in
that the experiments are easier to construct and the results far more
readily apparent and easy to measure.   What I am eager to find out, however
(and perhaps you can do this) is what you get when you apply the high
voltage, high frequency, pulsed DC output of a Newman machine to 1mm
electrodes in a tap water bath.......

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Nov 12 12:58:07 1998
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Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 12:56:29 -0800
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com (Freengr List)
From: pgb@padrak.com (Patrick Bailey)
Subject: ENERGIZER BUNNY FOUND DEAD!!!
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Subject: Energized!
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:11:59 -0800

[Big Snip]

ENERGIZER BUNNY FOUND DEAD!!!

Today, the world was stunned by the news of the death of the Energizer Bunny.

He was six years old.

Authorities believe that the death occurred approximately 8:42 last evening.

Best known as the irritating pink bunny that kept going, and going, and
going.

"Pinkie", as he was known to his friends and family, was alone at the time
of his death.

An emergency autopsy was performed early this morning. Chief Medical
Examiner, Dura Cell, concluded that the cause of death was acute cardiac
arrest induced by sexual over-stimulation.

Apparently, someone had put the bunny's batteries in backwards and he kept
coming, and coming, and coming...

--- ----- -------

I love it!

Reminds me of a scene in the videotape movie that you can rent called Brain
Storm (I think.  Brain *, anyway...).

Patrick Bailey
President, Institute for New Energy
http://www.padrak.com/ine/

See the Devices Database (over 140 devices listed):
http://www.padrak.com/ine/db/devices.html


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Nov 12 13:42:26 1998
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Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 15:36:59 -0800
From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk@sunherald.infi.net>
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All:

Anyone here know where I can obtain 3 2SC521A transistors?

Thanks,
Kyle R. Mcallister

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Nov 12 13:56:37 1998
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From: MATTIARO@aol.com
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On Hydroxide experiments.
  One of the people stated that water is an excellent insulator.  He is
correct.  As he stated, only the ions in the water conduct electricity.
  In order to speed up a reaction of electrolyses, add small amount of acid
into water.  This will give extra ions to conduct the electricity and will
theoretically act only as a catalyst.  
  When you use DC for the experiment, the positive lead will attract the
oxygen and the negative lead attracts the hydrogen.  This is also noted if one
collects these gases, the negative lead will have twice as much gas volume
than does the positive electrode.  The simplre reason for that is  the formula
for water, H2 O.
  But as was stated before, the electrodes will be absorbed into the water.
Also note how the positive copper electrode gets covered with cupric oxide
pretty fast!  :-)  And there will be moleculiar copper mixed in the oxygen
gas.
  When one uses AC to do the electrolyses, the amount of gas that is collected
from each electrode is ideally 2H and O.  The amount of gas in each collector
is equal now.  
  WARNING: The collected gas is EXTREMELY FLAMMABLE, and will explode in
presence of flame or a spark.  One can easily use the ac voltage from the 60
Hz AC wall plug.  WARNING:  Using electricity in a water can cause electric
shock(s). An isolation transformer is HIGHLY RECOMMENDED.  Use an ampere meter
in one of the leads to monitor the current.  Then you can see that the current
rate indicates the the speed at what the electrodes will erode.  Also if you
are interested on the end results and have a spectrometer for analyses, you
will find the differences in the collected gasses' composition.  This results
from what was previously discussed reasons.  Different electrical power will
go through different chemical reactions to break the water apart. 

WARNING:  IF you have not done similiar experiments before, DO NOT attempt to
use the AC from the wall socket.  There is a possibility of electric shock,
burns, and explosion.
  To do this experiment, I recommend that you do it in an unused, clean
aquarium , at least one meter (3 feet) long.  Fill the aquarium with tap
water.  Insert the electrodes into the far sides of the aquarium.  THEN turn
on the electrical power .  Monitor the amp meter so that there is enough
resistance between the two electrodes to prevent overloading the electrical
system.  The ampere meter should show zero current or only few milli amperes.
Now, cut off the electrical power.  Add little acid (about 1 teaspoon) and
stir the water to make homogenious mixture.  Although the electricity is cut
off, using insulated stirrer and measuring device is HIGHLY recommended.
Better safe than sorry.  Turn on the power and see the current.  If it has
risen noticably, you have enough acid in the water to act as a catalyst.  Now,
bringing the electrodes closer to each other, the current will increase.
WARNING: Use common sense on moving the electrodes.  NEVER touch both
electrode wires at the same time.  Keep one hand in your pocket.  Make woodden
tongs to move and to position the electrodes.  WARNING: DO NOT bring the
electrodes too close to each other.  They may create a spark in the water and
may set, the gas in your collector system, in fire.  And remember that the gas
that you have collected is EXPLOSIVE.

  In this experiment you should be able to notice the following things:
A) The surface area of the electrodes effects the current and the amount of
gases generated.
B) The distance between the electrodes effects the current and the amount of
gases generated.
C) The amount of impurities effects the current and the amount of the gases
generated.
D) The current amount effects the:
   1) erosion of the electrodes. 
   2) amount of gases generated.
   3) chemical composition of collected gases
   4) chemical reaction occuring to break the water apart.

   When you do the experiment by using DC current, you can collect the gases
separately.  If you want the "AC gases", just collect the gases from both
electrodes into the same container.

   By the way, you could place a variable resistor in series in one of the
leads.  This way you can also vary the potential voltage between the
electrodes.

   So have fun doing these experiments.  And remember, the experiment is
worthless unless you are around next day to analyze the data. :-)

  Matti
   mattiaro@aol.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Nov 12 17:36:35 1998
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ok now, am i right in assuming that the hydroxy is H and O?  (two of the
first) and that it is the form of electricity tht is put in-some form of
pulsed DC- that gets H and O instead of H2 and O2?  and if so, what is
the form of the electricity-certain frequencies or???
--
Patricia Weissleader at Lizardhaven Ranch
'where the critter meets the glitter'


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Nov 12 18:35:24 1998
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NO!!!!!

Never use acid!

The entire value of a non polluting energy system is violated when you use
a poison to develop the higher electrical conductivity. Always use a member
of the salt family. 

There is no more clear way to bring the logic of this home, than to look at
nature.  We, as humans, are an Electro chemical, carbon based life form,
using salts to make it all work. Stick to the natural.  Sodium or
potassium. Lie, (sodium hydroxide), and potash, (potassium Hydroxide) are
used by all nature to sustain the electrical potentials of life its self.
The reason nature does this is because no poisons are released, as a result
of subjecting these solutions to Electrolytic effects.  The other thing is
that we worked on this technology with the idea of creating a technology
that is well in the reach of the third world.  The salts needed for this
process are easily found in nature. The burning of wood can yield high
concentrations of both Sodium hydroxide, and Potassium Hydroxide.  If you
ever need to replenish your electrolyte, you can get the stuff to do it
right from nature. They are readily available and will not create toxins in
your gas.

Such is not the case with acids!

Use of compounds like sulfuric acid, will produce hydrogen sulfide gas, a
very poisonous gas. It in itself, Hydrogen sulfide gas is explosive.  This
gas is primarily what is involved in volcanism, In the event at MT St
Helen's, it moved 11 Million Metric tons of earth in one second.  In
Pompeii, in the 1600s and 100s, during the eruptions of MT Vesuvius, this
gas was responsible for thousands of deaths, in the blink of an eye.  Do
not use acids!

Potassium hydroxide, is also called "caustic soda", it can cause chemical
burns so care is needed in its use, but the amount needed to facilitate is
quite dilute, use gloves, and keep your solutions lean. You will not need
much anyway, and the amount if acid to equal this effect is much greater in
concentration, and as I say, a source of a deadly gas.  Potassium is also
needed by plants, so when you need to dispose of your electrolyte solution
you can use it, heavily diluted, on your lawn as a fertilizer. The same
goes for sodium, our oceans are full of it! Higher concentrations of lie in
soils are beneficial for some crops, the farmers of old used to call it
sweet soil, because of the sweet flavor of the soil. The chemicals and
byproducts, at the foundation of this technology are natural, and
recyclable and do not harm the environment.

A new form of energy of energy that is non polluting, non threatening to
the environment is what I was asked to produce, and I have. Don't ignore
the hard won lessons that has brought you this.

As far as using household current?  Bullshit! Alternating current will
never produce electrolytic effects, the relative distances are too far for
the atoms to travel to be emitted in the time that the cycling of the AC
current allows the plate to be charged. You will only see the wasting of
current across the plates and heat, the evidence of wasted energy. As the
plates rapidly cycle with polarity the destabilized molecule of water will
only, momentarily accept a charge, then as the polarity shifts it will
loose, that same charge.  If you do get an action at all it will be because
the heat is simply boiling the water.

Copper, gold, silver and aluminum, are bad plate materials in that the free
ions of their structures will allow them to quickly sacrifice away. This is
the foundation of the process of Electro platting.  Good, only if you want
cheep Jewelry, but not if you want a cell plate that lasts. Stay in the
ferrite family of minerals.  There again stick with what nature uses "Iron"
Loose Iron in the blood, and it can not carry oxygen, an electrolytic
process. Always look to nature when you want to study these processes.  The
blueprint is right in front of your eyes.  Don't ignore it, and it is perfect.

As far as voltages are concerned, nothing more that 2 volts is needed.  In
the welders we force the gas production by using 20 to 30 volts DC, only to
develop higher productions of gas from a smaller space.  When trying to use
this technology to store energy for use seek to increase your plate area
rather than raising your voltage.

Other things to think about. 

The making of lie from wood ash to make lie soap is dangerous, yes, but not
because of the lie alone, This danger came when the soap was made in copper
pots, resulting in the poisonings of families that later cooked their food
in these same pots. Lead is also not good for plates, as they produce led
oxide a known poison.  Lead and acid is also very dangerous. It is said
that lead pipes killed the Roman Empire.  It was not the lead in the pipes
carrying water, as they did not use an acid forming chemical Chlorine to
treat and purify their water. Hydrochloric acid, is formed in tiny amounts
in present day pipelines that then leaches out the led into the water
supply. The Romans did however drink lots of wine from drinking ware, made
of lead and other alloys of lead like putter.  The wine is an acid, and
then leaches out the led, a Poisson to the human body.

We spent thousands of hours researching these things. I don't mean to
preach, but I can see that I need to offer much more background to the WHYs
of this research. It is not just the mater of how to produce Hydrogen,
oxygen, or Hydroxy from water, but how to do it simply, safely, and with no
pollutants present or future. As with regard to nuclear fuel, touted in the
50 as a clean, unlimited source of energy, but with a 1600 year legacy of
waste and toxins for our children. Our systems use nature and energy, but
we just barrow these things and give them back like we found them, unspoiled. 

All the lessons you need to find your future, are in nature and your own
history. Use all the information that is available to you, and your future
is assured.

Sorry for the soap box!

All the best

TR Knudtson





At 04:45 PM 11/12/98 EST, you wrote:
>On Hydroxide experiments.
>  One of the people stated that water is an excellent insulator.  He is
>correct.  As he stated, only the ions in the water conduct electricity.
>  In order to speed up a reaction of electrolyses, add small amount of acid
>into water.  This will give extra ions to conduct the electricity and will
>theoretically act only as a catalyst.  
>  When you use DC for the experiment, the positive lead will attract the
>oxygen and the negative lead attracts the hydrogen.  This is also noted if
one
>collects these gases, the negative lead will have twice as much gas volume
>than does the positive electrode.  The simplre reason for that is  the
formula
>for water, H2 O.
>  But as was stated before, the electrodes will be absorbed into the water.
>Also note how the positive copper electrode gets covered with cupric oxide
>pretty fast!  :-)  And there will be moleculiar copper mixed in the oxygen
>gas.
>  When one uses AC to do the electrolyses, the amount of gas that is
collected
>from each electrode is ideally 2H and O.  The amount of gas in each collector
>is equal now.  
>  WARNING: The collected gas is EXTREMELY FLAMMABLE, and will explode in
>presence of flame or a spark.  One can easily use the ac voltage from the 60
>Hz AC wall plug.  WARNING:  Using electricity in a water can cause electric
>shock(s). An isolation transformer is HIGHLY RECOMMENDED.  Use an ampere
meter
>in one of the leads to monitor the current.  Then you can see that the
current
>rate indicates the the speed at what the electrodes will erode.  Also if you
>are interested on the end results and have a spectrometer for analyses, you
>will find the differences in the collected gasses' composition.  This results
>from what was previously discussed reasons.  Different electrical power will
>go through different chemical reactions to break the water apart. 
>
>WARNING:  IF you have not done similiar experiments before, DO NOT attempt to
>use the AC from the wall socket.  There is a possibility of electric shock,
>burns, and explosion.
>  To do this experiment, I recommend that you do it in an unused, clean
>aquarium , at least one meter (3 feet) long.  Fill the aquarium with tap
>water.  Insert the electrodes into the far sides of the aquarium.  THEN turn
>on the electrical power .  Monitor the amp meter so that there is enough
>resistance between the two electrodes to prevent overloading the electrical
>system.  The ampere meter should show zero current or only few milli amperes.
>Now, cut off the electrical power.  Add little acid (about 1 teaspoon) and
>stir the water to make homogenious mixture.  Although the electricity is cut
>off, using insulated stirrer and measuring device is HIGHLY recommended.
>Better safe than sorry.  Turn on the power and see the current.  If it has
>risen noticably, you have enough acid in the water to act as a catalyst.
Now,
>bringing the electrodes closer to each other, the current will increase.
>WARNING: Use common sense on moving the electrodes.  NEVER touch both
>electrode wires at the same time.  Keep one hand in your pocket.  Make
woodden
>tongs to move and to position the electrodes.  WARNING: DO NOT bring the
>electrodes too close to each other.  They may create a spark in the water and
>may set, the gas in your collector system, in fire.  And remember that the
gas
>that you have collected is EXPLOSIVE.
>
>  In this experiment you should be able to notice the following things:
>A) The surface area of the electrodes effects the current and the amount of
>gases generated.
>B) The distance between the electrodes effects the current and the amount of
>gases generated.
>C) The amount of impurities effects the current and the amount of the gases
>generated.
>D) The current amount effects the:
>   1) erosion of the electrodes. 
>   2) amount of gases generated.
>   3) chemical composition of collected gases
>   4) chemical reaction occuring to break the water apart.
>
>   When you do the experiment by using DC current, you can collect the gases
>separately.  If you want the "AC gases", just collect the gases from both
>electrodes into the same container.
>
>   By the way, you could place a variable resistor in series in one of the
>leads.  This way you can also vary the potential voltage between the
>electrodes.
>
>   So have fun doing these experiments.  And remember, the experiment is
>worthless unless you are around next day to analyze the data. :-)
>
>  Matti
>   mattiaro@aol.com
>
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Nov 12 21:08:14 1998
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Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 23:58:47 -0500
To: Duncan Purvis <dpurvis@scigen.co.uk>,
        "Jorg D. Ostrowski" <jdo@ucalgary.ca>
Subject: Re[2]: Hydroxy research
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Duncan, Jorg,

To increase surface tension of water simply apply the north pole of a 1000
gause or more flat or bar magnet to water in a glass or plastic jar. 15 to
20 minutes is all the treating time that is needed. The magnetized water
remains treated from 12 to 24 hours. Leaving the magnet against the
container, keeps the water treated. 

Typical Tape water treated as above increases the surface tension @ room temp.
to about +3.6 dynes
with South pole you get about - 4 dynes. Ref: Pages 85 & 86, "The Magnetic
Blue
Print of Life" - AR. Davis & WC. Rawls - 1993 printing. See URL below for more
info. Do read about their work its incredible!

The south pole will decrease the surface tension. The water tastes sharp or
acidic. While north pole water tastes smooth or alkaline.

To determine North and South pole correctly read the file at:

<http://www.keelynet.com/biology/biomag2.htm>http://www.keelynet.com/biolog
y/biomag2.htm

Chris

At 08:35 AM 11/12/98 +0000, Duncan Purvis wrote:
>
>Chris
>
>Please could you elaborate on your experiments with magnets and water taste.
>
>Thanks 
>
>Duncan
>
>
>Treating water with magnets might also give different results. I believe this
is also mentioned in the Horvath patent. I have been experimenting with the
effects on water for improving taste. Blind tests have shown definite
change in
taste etc. once I get a good feel for these cells I will pursue this avenue as
magnets are another interest of mine.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>Scientific Generics Limited  Tel: +44 1223 875200
>Harston Mill                 Fax: +44 1223 875201
>Harston
>Cambridge
>CB2 5NH
>United Kingdom              
<http://www.generics.co.uk/>http://www.generics.co.uk
>------------------------------------------------------------

> Chris: How simple is your set-up and could we try it to remove colour in
>our greywater recycling experiments? Jorg Ostrowski

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Nov 12 21:25:38 1998
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Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 21:20:34 -0800
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Mike Hughes <mikeh@powernet.net>
Subject: Hydroxy Research - Carbon based life forms...
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In the fall '98 issue of RV Journal (definitely NOT a sci rag ;)
I found an ad for "a-pholon black (CB-103)- a revolutionary battery
additive that really works"  The ad says its a carbon additive
suspended in distilled water that adheres to the electrodes.
It was developed by a Japanese scientist.

Now suppose one (or more) of you, doing hydroxy experiments, gets some of
this stuff and try it instead of a base (or acid)? If you do, lets us
know the results.

Sorry to make this look like an ad, but it seemed the most expedient way to 
get the info out to the investigators... and I do not work for or have any
interest in the company selling it.

a six ounce bottle is US$29.95

Its available from: 

Bidena Products POBox 7675, Laguna Niguel, CA 92607

1-949-661-9319

Thanks for your time.

-mike


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Nov 12 21:43:49 1998
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From: MATTIARO@aol.com
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Hello Knudtson.
  First of all, thank you for raising the ecological question(s).  I deserve 3
lashes with a wet noodle for not going further and stating that the acid could
be a lemon juice or orange juice from the oranges.  Also any type of vinegar
will work fine.  And the amount of any of the acid is just a teaspoonful, then
the orange juice or the vinegar in several gallons (~10+) when used to water
the grass will not have any tetrimental effect on grass.

Matti

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Nov 12 22:02:29 1998
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Sorry Matti,

In those concentrations you will wait ten years to produce the quantities
needed in these processes. And once again they produce a poison when
electrolyzed.

TR Knudtson


At 12:27 AM 11/13/98 EST, you wrote:
>Hello Knudtson.
>  First of all, thank you for raising the ecological question(s).  I
deserve 3
>lashes with a wet noodle for not going further and stating that the acid
could
>be a lemon juice or orange juice from the oranges.  Also any type of vinegar
>will work fine.  And the amount of any of the acid is just a teaspoonful,
then
>the orange juice or the vinegar in several gallons (~10+) when used to water
>the grass will not have any tetrimental effect on grass.
>
>Matti
>
>
>

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>Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 20:37:02 -0800
>To: Dan York <danyork@lyghtforce.com> (by way of mbgupta@julian.uwo.ca)
>From: trknute@earthlink.net
>Subject: Re: Browns gas/ hydroxy
>In-Reply-To: <199811130503.AAA17456@romeo.its.uwo.ca>
>
>At 11:36 PM 11/12/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>Dear TR, 
>>
>>Think this is directed to you.
>>
>>Chris
>>
>Dear Chris,
>
>I hope that examining a system of mine of a mostly passive system of
desalinization of seawater, may offer some ideas for your friend. It is
easy to test and fun.
>
>Knudtson passive solar desalinization.
>
>
>The oceans of earth are nothing more than vast storehouses of all
chemicals and minerals. Much like your residue of the plating process.  The
ability for salt water to devolve minerals is unmatched in nature. Water
it's self is considered the universal solvent, if this is a reference, than
salt water is this solvent on steroids.
>
>If you have heard of the manganese nodules that are formed at great depth
in the ocean than you have proof positive, that there is a process that
does concentrate the type of materials we seek to we might seek to extract.
 Her once again I would suggest that you take you queue from nature.
Because this takes place at a depth where the pressure is great, I would
say that pressure is key in what you are trying to duplicate this example.
>
>The other thing to be conquered is time. It may be that the concentrations
of manganese have taken millions of years to form, this still does not mean
that your process is impossible.  What nature is doing with pressure and
time, you can possibly speed up by looking at the total problem. Another
way to look at it is can the minerals be an incidental to the process, more
or less a byproduct of another cost effective if not profitable, primary
need. 
>
>Science has known about the vast reserves of minerals in the oceans for
centuries. The issue boils down to economics.  Can you remove the materials
from saltwater economically?
>
>First I would seek to extract as much of the water as possible, gaining a
higher concentration of minerals that we seek to extract. This can be done
at low temperature by simply subjecting the solution to a vacuum.  Using
direct solar gain panels, it is not hard to raise the temperature of water
to 130 to 150 degrees.  The sun is free, and this will help in the removing
pure water from the salt solution.  
>
>In places like Saudi Arabia, the water that could come from the sea, in
this sort of process has a high market value, as water in these regions is
scarce, and sunlight is abundant. Secondarily an cheep abundant source of
water in the desert means a new potential for farming of these normally
arid lands. 
>
>Subjecting seawater to a low vacuum is then a simple thing. A household
vacuum cleaner, is capable of producing the pressure differentials that are
then needed to lower the vaporization point of this preheated water. I use
the term "Vaporization Point" specifically here to raise an issue. Boiling
points of all materials is factored at average "means" of all of the
variables involved, namely presser and temperature.  The standards stases
are sea level, (14.7psi) and (72` F.) for most natural states of materials.
 The "Vaporization Point", of any material is effected, by altering any of
the variables.  Liquid Nitrogen, as we remember it from lab class, is very
cold, but it was open to the air.  Liquid Nitrogen, can be stored at room
temperature as long as it is under great pressure. With sufficient vacuum
you can vaporize water seawater at room temperature. The key is to find the
best economic means to accomplish this. 
>
>In the case of desert regions that border oceans, the work can mostly done
by nature, by the use solar power. A friend asked me once, "But gee! This
would take fields of solar panels covering many acres to do this on a large
scale, that would cost so much!".  Often the obvious is so hard to see.  He
had one of the best solar collectors of all times right before his eyes,
but could not see it.  The dessert itself sits there soaking up
temperatures that the unshod human foot can not stand. A simple array of
tubing paced on or near the surface of a graded and prepared section of
desert, could easily reach temperatures of 160 to 180` F. during the day.
More than enough thermal potential, to heat vast amounts of sea water.
What about the roofs of the buildings in the towns and cities, or any
concrete parking garage, all sustaining vast solar potential?  How many of
us have been scalded on a summer day, by the water coming out the end of a
garden hose?
>This need not be a highly engineered system, just a bunch of pipes,
manifold and laid out in a pattern in the desert sand.
>
>Well, why not just boil the water, using an insolating cover, like two
layers of glass, to intensify the effect?
>
>Side note; 
>
>This is a solution, if low power steam is what you desire, say, to power
high efficiency steam turbine generators. Once again, not as a total
replacement of electrical power for a city, but it sure would be nice to
help with peek demand, middle of day loads. If this is what is desired,
than I suggest a reflective parabolic trough, but if seawater is used
directly, this would present a set of new problems, in that the pipes would
quickly become clogged with salt.  This type of steam heat sourcing of
electricity was very successfully Proofed by Southern California Edison,
Electric Company, in the 80s, near Daget, California, but this once again,
was a temporal, a day time solution. Here again is a situation of a
technology that can benefit from the use of the Knudtson Power cell, to
extend the use of the electricity by storing the potential as a gas, Hydroxy.
>
>The other part of this desalination process is the consideration of
balance, in the economics of this system.  Condensation is accomplished
quite easily, by re-subjecting the 160` F. Vapor to atmospheric pressure.
Further cooling of the condensed water can be accommodated by chiller coils
of recirculating seawater, sourced from below the prime thermal cline of
the near by sea or ocean. 
>
>A critical component of this process, still remains, that of the
vaporization section of this system.
>
>I suggest series of long, well insolated, rectangular tanks, with
perpendicular slots in the top of the tanks.  These slots are for the
insertion of racks of wicks, waited at the bottom and lowered into the hot
saltwater, coming from the solar array. The water level is designed to
lower at a metered pace throughout the day, allowing for salt crystal
formation on the descending wicks. Refilled at the beginning of each
production cycle, the salt deposits will not re-dissolve into the brine of
the evaporative solution, because of the progressively higher concentration
of minerals in the evaporative section tank. The descending wicks just give
the chrysalis, a place to form. A gasket seal of the lids supporting each
wick rack, insures that the quality of vacuum in the evaporator section
remains high.
>
>Fresh air flow, in the evaporative section, can be maintained by a series
of metered pinholes, in each of the wick rack covers. After just a few days
the wicks will be ready for harvesting as the second product, salt also, is
a valued commodity, will have collected on the wicks..
>
>Replaced with new wick racks, the collected salt laden wicks are then sent
to a mechanical harvester, where the salt is simply cracked off the wicks,
in a roller press type of system. I suggest that the wicks be made of 1/2"
thick acrylic, much like yarn, as it is very durable and could sustain many
cycles of use. The evaporative section is not directly filled or circulated
from the solar field, except to replace the quantity of solution that has
been vaporized in the dry-down cycle.  Heat exchanger pipes are channeled
through the tank, thermostatically controlled, to maintain the optimum
temperature of the evaporative sections.
>
>For those of you who recognize this system, it is the way we used to make
rock candy, as children.
>
>For those of you who are jumping at the issue of the pumps and drive
motors involved, I might point out that this system is only designed to
operate 8 hours per day, during times of peek efficiencies. Direct solar
powered motors are my suggestion, as the sun will be up when the plant goes
into prime production anyway. DC motors are available in a wide range of
powers, up to 2000 HP,  and in many RPM ratings.  I might also point out.
that a 1 HP motor, can efficiently run a 300 ft. evaporator section.  The
redundancy of evaporators, allows for the system to be shut down, section
by section, for maintenance or salt harvesting. For those, who would like
an optimally efficient operation; the maintenance and harvesting, can be
done by the night crew.
>
>
>As I have said, salt water is an excellent electrolyte, but the byproduct
of electrolyses, Sodium Chloride is Chlorine gas, and Hydrochloric acid. In
this way, these negatives are eliminated. By removing the salt from the
mineral rich sea water. The concentrations of minerals in the evaporative
sections then leaves a rich, cost free, source of the earth's resources,
there for the asking. The process of extraction is financed by the
lucrative products of salt, and fresh water.  If you live by a clean river,
this may not sound like much, but to those countries that geographically
need this type of technology, this simple cost effective solution is of
great value, if for only in its' two, prime, products, Fresh Water, and Salt.
>
>As far as the extraction of minerals from the residuals of the evaporative
section, see my posts on ore concentration using, Hydroxy technologies.
>
>Can the expensive reverse osmoses, or membrane systems of desalinization
be replaced by a solar panel, an evaporator tank, and a vacuum cleaner?
>
>Yes, but this type of system, anyone can maintain, so in addition to the
loss of a juicy prime engineering contract, the managing of the system can
be done by a school boy.
>
>Just because something makes sense dose not mean it can be sold.
>
>All the best
>
>TR Knudtson
>
>>==========================================================================
====
>>
>>If you have any knowledge and or experience you are willing to share about
>>efficient ways of plating metals out of solution with electrolysis I would
>>be grateful. I have base metals (iron, copper, etc.) along with platinum
>>group metals in solution in extremely concentrated salt water with a PH of
>>about 2. I have been precipitating the metals out chemically but am
>>interested in trying to separate them out electrically. The amount of
>>metals in solution is also very concentrated. I have plenty of DC power
>>supplies and plating tanks but very little experience. I would appreciate
>>any information or advice you might be willing to offer. 
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Dan York
>>danyork@lyghtforce.com 
>>
>>
>>
>>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Nov 13 06:42:27 1998
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From: Charlie Hodgson <chuck@cougar.ssi.stratus.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:00:09 -0500
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In <3.0.5.32.19981110120415.008aedd0@earthlink.net>, on 11/10/98 
   at 12:04 PM, trknute@earthlink.net said:

>Never use acid!

>The entire value of a non polluting energy system is violated when you
>use a poison to develop the higher electrical conductivity. Always use a
>member of the salt family. 

Acid is not a poison in the way you make it sound. Simple acids, such as
HCl is safer to the enviorment than complex salts. 


>There is no more clear way to bring the logic of this home, than to look
>at nature.  We, as humans, are an Electro chemical, carbon based life
>form, using salts to make it all work. Stick to the natural.  Sodium or
>potassium. Lie, (sodium hydroxide), and potash, (potassium Hydroxide) are
>used by all nature to sustain the electrical potentials of life its self.

Why are bases, such as  'Lie' (sic) safer? HCl + NaOH -> HCl + H20, or, in
english, equal parts of Hydocloric Acid and Lye, mixed together yeild salt
water. Assuming that the HCl and NaOH are USP grade,  (and you *really*
used identical molecular quantities of both) you  could ingest the
product, or at least keep your tropical fish in it.

You are mixing apples and oranges here. Acids are a normal part of nature.
I guess we would by really screwing up the enviorment by squeezing the
juice of a lemon into the water to increase  conductivity.  After all,
Citric acid is BAD BAD BAD BAD.

I guess it would be a lot safer to dump a bunch of N2H4OC into the
solution.  After all, it is a salt, isn't it?  We have no need to fret
over producing HCN as a by-product, as it will kill you in a single
breath.

On the bright side, it will be quick and painless death, with your last
thoughts spent wondering who is making the almond cookies. After all, salt
is GOOD, GOOD, GOOD.  

-Charlie-


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Nov 13 07:38:54 1998
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Subject: Re: [Off Topic] Pyramids
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Hi David and all,
At 12:31 PM 11/12/98 -0000, you wrote:
>Hi All
>
>Does anyone have any information about the geometry of Egyptian pyramids?
>
>Best regards
>
>David Callaghan
>
I've read that the great pyramid at Giza, if the vertical height is 1 unit,
the base perimeter is 2*pi units. Then from triangles, one can work out the
slant height Sqrt(1+(pi/4)^2) and then the length of the vertices.
The king's chamber is 1/3 distance up.
-Dave

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Nov 13 08:13:34 1998
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From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS@ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
Subject: Electric Bricks
To: freenrg-l <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>, trknute <trknute@earthlink.net>
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Dear TR,

In a recent post to freenrg-l, you discussed generating electricity by attaching
electrodes to a section of brick and placing it in water.

Do you have a web site where I could obtain more information on building one of 
these devices.

I would be interested in determining the amount of wattage can be generated from
a given surface area of brick at a given flow rate.  Has a formula been 
developed for these parameters?

What other types of materials does this work with: Ceramics? Fired Clay pipes?
How about clay tiles on the roof of a building?

Does this work best for rain water, water in a stream, lake, well water, city 
water, etc..?

Bill

 ________________________________________________________/////___________
|  William E. Briggs Jr.  |                             ( ~ ~ )          |
| webriggs@concentric.net |                             &-@-@-&          |
|-------------------------|---------------------------ooo--U--ooo--------|
|    XLN Systems, Inc.    |Ideas presented are my own hair brained ideas,|
|      Columbus, OH       |and not the hair brained ideas of my employer.|
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Nov 13 09:29:40 1998
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In a message dated 11/11/98 4:34:25 PM Pacific Standard Time, HLafonte@aol.com
writes:

<< Hi all,
  I have been working to find out if  "hard ferro magnetic" steel, that is,
 steel that will hold it's magnetized state when removed from the magnetic
 field that magnetized it, can be neutralized (left with no poles established)
 as it nears the stator of a magneto. As you know when a magnet (rotor) nears
 the stator and the circuit of the stator's coil is closed, a magnetic field
of
 opposite politiary is induced into the core of the stator by the coil. I
 wonder if this force causes a repelling force on the rotor's magnet or does
it
 just reduce the amount of flux that is allowed to pass thru the stators
core.>>

Butch,
    The answer to this I think  is yes, there is a repelling force.  If you
want to visualize what the forces are doing in systems like this you can
consider the surface of each magnet (permanent OR induced) as a current sheet
in the appropriate direction and look at the interaction between the currents
in the coils and the magnet surface currents.  In this case the induced
current in the stator coil is in the opposite direction as the rotor surface
current so there is a repulsion force  i.e. there are equal and opposite
repulsion forces on the rotor and coil.  Note however that the surface current
on the stator surface is in the same direction as the rotor current so there
is an attractive (and probably much larger) force between them.  And as the
rotor later moves away from the stator the induced current is in the same
direction as the rotor surface current so the forces are attractive.
At least I think that's the theory --

 <>

It sounds like you plan to demagnetize the rotor.  How this might be done is
of course dependent on the B-H curve of the material and is highly material
dependent, but in general the H field in the magnet must be increased far
enough to bring the B field to zero - or farther.  "Degaussers" do this with a
large alternating H field that is reduced to zero.  But if this were the plan
the rotor would have to be remagnetized for the next stator?

<<This would open up all kinds of possibilties for over unity design in
electrical generators and motors as the steel rotor would move away from the
stator without an attraction force trying to keep the two lined up.
   I did a few tests and measured the force over a distance when a rotor is
 allowed to be pulled to a stator with the coil circuit open. Then with the
 circuit closed, the force over distance decreased as the amount of current
 allowed to flow in the coil was increased. I am running tests now to reach a
 point where the current flow is high enough in the coil that the attraction
 force of the rotor magnet is countered buy an equal and opposite force in the
 stator. I want to see if the "hard ferro-magnetic steel" rotor will become
 neutral, that is, not have any north or south poles established at this
point.
 If so, then the rotor could leave the stator free of attraction force
 ("drag"). This would be an over unity operation. I call it "self
neutralizing"
 because it would use it's own energy to bring itself to a neutral state.
   I have a design for this theory on my web site at:
 <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/HLafonte/lafonteresearchsite1web.html">
 HLafonte's Home Page</A> or, 
 http://members.aol.com/HLafonte/lafonteresearchsite1web.html
 Thanks,
 Butch LaFonte
  >>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Nov 13 10:11:23 1998
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From: trknute@earthlink.net
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Hydroxy research tests - things to remember
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Charlie,  

It is the gas that becomes poison.

But if you are doing research in hydroxy, conduct your own tests, but
please, please be careful.

TR Knudtson



At 09:00 AM 11/13/98 -0500, you wrote:
>In <3.0.5.32.19981110120415.008aedd0@earthlink.net>, on 11/10/98 
>   at 12:04 PM, trknute@earthlink.net said:
>
>>Never use acid!
>
>>The entire value of a non polluting energy system is violated when you
>>use a poison to develop the higher electrical conductivity. Always use a
>>member of the salt family. 
>
>Acid is not a poison in the way you make it sound. Simple acids, such as
>HCl is safer to the enviorment than complex salts. 
>
>
>>There is no more clear way to bring the logic of this home, than to look
>>at nature.  We, as humans, are an Electro chemical, carbon based life
>>form, using salts to make it all work. Stick to the natural.  Sodium or
>>potassium. Lie, (sodium hydroxide), and potash, (potassium Hydroxide) are
>>used by all nature to sustain the electrical potentials of life its self.
>
>Why are bases, such as  'Lie' (sic) safer? HCl + NaOH -> HCl + H20, or, in
>english, equal parts of Hydocloric Acid and Lye, mixed together yeild salt
>water. Assuming that the HCl and NaOH are USP grade,  (and you *really*
>used identical molecular quantities of both) you  could ingest the
>product, or at least keep your tropical fish in it.
>
>You are mixing apples and oranges here. Acids are a normal part of nature.
>I guess we would by really screwing up the enviorment by squeezing the
>juice of a lemon into the water to increase  conductivity.  After all,
>Citric acid is BAD BAD BAD BAD.
>
>I guess it would be a lot safer to dump a bunch of N2H4OC into the
>solution.  After all, it is a salt, isn't it?  We have no need to fret
>over producing HCN as a by-product, as it will kill you in a single
>breath.
>
>On the bright side, it will be quick and painless death, with your last
>thoughts spent wondering who is making the almond cookies. After all, salt
>is GOOD, GOOD, GOOD.  
>
>-Charlie-
>
>
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Nov 13 11:12:51 1998
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From: HLafonte@aol.com
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Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 14:02:55 EST
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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See my site for test results and drawing, I was able to neutralize the
temporary magnet with a permanent magnet in one movement in one direction.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte 
<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/HLafonte/lafonteresearchsite1web.html">
HLafonte's Home Page</A> or, 
http://members.aol.com/HLafonte/lafonteresearchsite1web.html 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Nov 13 15:30:44 1998
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Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 17:12:01 -0500 (EDT)
From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS@ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
Subject: Re: Alien Photos on Art Bell Website
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Dear Mitchell Jones,

Go away!!!

On one hand I would like to encourage everyone to just ignore his alien blather, 
and he'll eventually go away.  Like the kid who keeps getting in trouble just to 
get some attention, with the extinction of the expected response, he will go 
elsewhere for attention.

Again like the little kid craving attention, maybe he is trying to gain 
legitimacy for his interests.  By being around the grown ups it makes him feel 
respectable, and he can brag to his fellow flakes "Yeah, I talk too real 
scientists about this all the time".

But on the other hand, perhaps he doesn't like being a little fish in the big 
pond of tabloid science, so he comes here to be the big alien expert fish in the 
little pond of real science.  Or maybe even he is beginning to feel 
uncomfortable in the granola land of tabloid science (nuts, fruits & flakes), 
but like the immature child he can't sit still and listen and learn, but has to 
spout off with the drivel he is used to discussing.

But here I am giving him some attention.  My response is something like the 
irritated home owner who finds his neiborhood has been vandalized by graffiti.
To the vandal the graffiti is art, and should be appreciated as such.  But while 
it may be considered art in the eyes of a few beholders, it is not art to every 
one.  Even if it was it is still like a Picasso garishly placed among a 
collection dedicated to Rembrandts, it is just out of place and doesn't belong.

Somethings just don't belong mixed in with other things.  If I go to a Jazz club 
I should be able to expect to hear Jazz, and shouldn't have to sit through some 
rap music just because someone wanders in off the street, jumps up on the stage 
and starts spitting and burping and waving his arms around to enlighten us with 
his musical art form.

If I buy a book at a book store, I shouldn't have to tear out 10% of the pages 
that have been randomly inserted there from another book.  I shouldn't have to 
pick out the hot chile peppers from MY oatmeal, because someone else thought 
everyone should have a taste of mexican for breakfast.

Like graffiti it lessens the value of the neighborhood and scares away the good 
neighbors, and keeps other good neighbors from moving in.  Eventually everyone 
quietly passes the word that we are all moving somewhere else, and for a while 
we can have some serious discussions again.  But eventually the despoilers find 
out and can't resist the urge to go vandalize the next neighborhood.

Yeah, we could filter it out or just ignore it, but by sticking our head in the 
sand we become partially responsible for the damage that is being done to our 
neiborhood.

So what is it going to be, do we just get someone to sponsor another list 
server, give it some obscure name to avoid attracting attention, and pass the 
word amongst ourselves where the new sand box is.  Or is there some other way of 
getting this person to stop using our sand box like it was kitty litter by 
leaving his alien graffiti turds here.

Please, go away!!!

Bill

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Nov 14 02:54:40 1998
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Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 12:03:03 +0100
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Hi,

I am finally in the setup stage of my old 3rd Newman machine.

It is now at our Technical University of Berlin at a "Free Energy
workshop lab" were some students are testing out Orgon energy,
Coler converter and the Newman machine.

It is a class which students can use for their diploma.
This class runs now 2 times each week.

We have now setup my machine to a grid AC to DC converter 
rectifier circuit.
So far we have run it again at 570 Volts DC and 
about 9 mA DC input current.
The heavy rotor turn at about 2 rev/sec at this input voltage.

The coil used is my old coil with about 17 KOhm DC 
resistance.
The commutator still reverses the current every 180 degrees,
every time the rotor is in up-down position.

On Monday I will try to adjust the commutator to 
magnet angle, so the current reversal will take place
at different angles to see, if I can get more back current
spikes when we will have first new scope measurements...

Stay tuned.

Regards, Stefan.




--
Hartmann Multimedia Service,  Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
Tel: ++ 49 30-345 00 497  FAX: ++ 49 30-345 00 498
email: harti@harti.com  Web site: http://www.harti.com
http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB !

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Nov 14 03:38:06 1998
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From: "David Callaghan" <DCallaghan@CallaghanSystems.Demon.Co.Uk>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Hydrogen Storage
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:08:15 -0000
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Hi All

Hydrogen storage in carbon nanofibres.
http://www.itri.loyola.edu/nano/us_r_n_d/09_03.htm



Electrical Discharge Machining (EDM) Electrolysis Technical Stuff
http://www.mmsonline.com/articles/099504.html


(Links courtesy of Frederic J Sparber - Vortex)

Best regards

David Callaghan



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Nov 14 11:19:32 1998
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    Just a thought, but wouldn't sea water be a good electrolyte, not to
mention probably the healthiest?  We know that electrolysis happens in
oceans everyday, and they aren't poisoning themselves.  If we were to take
the water, salt and all, out of the oceans, and use those, would that not be
the best stuff to use?  As you had said, learn from nature :)  I'm finally
getting into all the chemical symbols and all in school, but I understand
quite alot of it before they started teaching us (Gr. 9).  Electrolysis has
always been an interest of mine, just never had a chance to work with it.
Oh yes, if you want a very simple test cell, I'll tell you one that I used
probably about 4 years back.  It was a film canister filled 3/4 with salt
water (just tap water with a dash of table salt) and two zinc-plated nails
stuck through the lid.  It was hooked up to a small toy transformer I had
(3V, 500mA) and after about 10 minutes, the cap felt like it was about to
blow off.  So, being the inventor that I am, I modified it, having a hole in
the top and I left it overnight.  I'm still not sure what would have spit
out of it, as I don't even know any of the chemical formulae for any of
these things, and their reactions, but in the morning, I had no water, and
the ENTIRE inside of the things was covered in rust, not just nails!
Plastic and all had a nice, rock-hard sheet of rust on it.  Aren't zinc
plated iron nails supposed to be rust free?  This makes me think that the
zinc was removed and the nails became oxidized (Fe + O = Rust [iron oxide]).
Any idea what could have spit out of this thing, and what changes I could
make?  It worked very well as a battery if you measured the power across the
nails when it just sat.  About 0.7V I believe is what I got.  Never left it
long enough for it to wear out, but I had a couple of them in series running
a small flashlight bulb for a day or two.  Not sure if it would have run
longer because I disconnected it and cleaned it all up for other
experiments.  Any ideas?  I'm thinking of making them again and see if it is
flammable, as it's only in such small amounts (3/4 of a film canister)  I
appreciate any help or thoughts ;)

-Plasmatic
Plas@Dlcwest.Com
Why is it that in the quest to make energy, man always seems to make toxins
instead?

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Nov 14 12:12:51 1998
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From: Thomas Spellman <lightspring@jps.net>
Subject: Re: [Off Topic] Pyramids
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>At 12:31 PM 11/12/98 -0000, you wrote:
>>Hi All
>>
>>Does anyone have any information about the geometry of Egyptian pyramids?
>>
>>Best regards
>>
>>David Callaghan

There's a book by Pat Flanagan called Pyramid Power which has these
measurements and more:

height:	5,813"
base, one face:	9,131"
actual height, by destruction 	5,496"
edge, face, corner to apex:		8,684"
apothem, center of base to face of apex:	7,387"
base angle, face to ground:		51degrees17'14"
apex, interfacial angle:			76degress17'32"
edge to ground level:			41degrees59'50"
dihedral angle, face to face, edge		106degrees54'
apex, edge to edge			96degrees
circuit of the base:			36,524.24"

One half of the base divided into the apothem is equal to PHI

For example:
7387/4565.5=1.6180374
9131/2=4565.5

Compared to the base, the edge  length of the face is 4.9% less:
8684/9131=0.9509998

The height is 36.4% less than the base:
5813/9131=0.6366224

Sharon and Thomas Spellman
shacoma@jps.net


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Nov 14 13:03:53 1998
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From: B777b77@webtv.net (R B)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 16:02:30 -0500 (EST)
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Subject: Sea Solar Power: The Coming Energy Revolution
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   Found this while looking for solar cells, might be worth a look.
(RB)


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http://www.via-net.net/seasolar/

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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Nov 14 13:04:10 1998
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Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 15:08:39 -0600
From: Daniel Joyce <dj38302@swt.edu>
Subject: Scalar Wave transmitter
Sender: Briareos@swt.edu
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Well, I talked to my Dad about radios, and Tesla's idea of scalar
waves, and he seem interested in building the sample transmitter given
on JNaudin's site.
	So, we'll see about the faraday cage penetrating effects of scalars,
and also do some tests to see if they actually exist.
 	Naudin didn't mention if his machine, when using a normal radio
antennae, could penetrate his metal box. Faraday cages have to be built
carefully, else cracks can leak EM radiation. From a multi-KW radio
station miles away, the leakage may be minimal, but a 2watt transmitter
at 5 feet might be more than enough to leak some EM into a poorly
constructed faraday cage, and reach the radio reciever inside.
	Also, some people have said that Scalars can not be picked up by a
normal radio, but Naudin's test used a radio in a faraday box as a
detector. Hmmm, which is it?

	If so, I will just build a scalar and em detector too.

	And maybe a SMOT too, which I have some ideas on how it can work, and
sadly, doesn't involve Vortices, ZPE, Grey aliens, or PSI, just
something a little more reasonable, ambient heat. This of course still
violates a law of TD, but it's not that serious of an infraction, and
the universe will let me off with time served and parole  :) .
	
	Daniel.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Nov 14 14:50:20 1998
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From: UNIR2B1@aol.com
Message-ID: <f2d8db57.364e082d@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 17:46:05 EST
To: BB1050@aol.com, johnhoffman@webtv.net, huntfish1@juno.com,
        cotaylor@cellone.net, PetMagic@aol.com, biotron@pacbell.net,
        hauserrolfe@bigfoot.com, nichols@cybertyme.com, candace1@usa.net,
        y2k-survival@infostream.net, SedonaY2K@mail-list.com, nhne@nhne.com,
        vortex-l@eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, rtoler@cland.net,
        goldbug@worldaccessnet.com, cturner@npwt.net, ark@Millennium-ark.net,
        Y2K <Y2KNOW@listbot.com>, piercemark@hotmail.com,
        markland@rockisland.com, UFOLAWYER1@aol.com,
        Terri Schoolden <manna@blazenet.net>, lkvp@mail.awod.com,
        Sharon <sharon@nyct.net>, Vince Goetsch <3wishes@wishgranted.com>,
        Carolyn <cwhite5@gl.umbc.edu>, richarda@icx.net, murrayjm@juno.com,
        celiag@email.com, lizardhaven@zippnet.net, Reality_Pump2@onelist.com,
        Tom <survival@ballistic.com>, michael romack <chief@sundial.net>,
        Henri Calitri <tenx7@bellatlantic.net>, visited@onelist.com,
        Marsha Doyenne <mdoyenne@dustdevil.com>,
        "Dennis C. Lee" <atech@ix.netcom.com>, seer7@netusa1.net,
        Julie Reiner <julier@maxwell.UCSC.EDU>,
        Heather and Andrew Tinley <heatherti@mindspring.com>,
        ponski@soft-link.com, jkinsley@beyond-the-illusion.com,
        David House <housed@indiana.edu>,
        John Michaels <transnet@mail.teleport.com>, DiMaDuBo@aol.com,
        "John H.St.John" <homer@abac.com>,
        David Openheimer <zianet@interserv.com>,
        Diane Durham-Bothwell <DiMaDuBo@aol.com>,
        "George A. Abbott" <sepequal@hotmail.com>, spot <spot2@pdq.net>,
        Mike Connolly <mconnolly@grainsystems.com>,
        Thomas Spellman <lightspring@jps.net>, DD <11111119@lava.net>,
        Shekhina Canyon <shekhina_shaman@bigfoot.com>, UNIR2B1@aol.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Subject: PROGRESSIVE COMUNITY--please note!
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Hello, All--

In my posts originally titled PROGRESSIVE COMUNITY (and subsequent
variations), I emphasized our philosophy as a tactic for 'screening'
participants.  (Although the current crisis was caused by a lack of
dialectical wisdom, I nevertheless expected almost all readers to merely roll
their eyes.)  However, I'm now inundated with quality email from people
expressing interest in forming an intentional community predicated not only on
storing necessities, but also producing newer, better answers to basic needs
through innovative, sustainable methodologies--all of which requires
participants of a certain kind of mentality.  

The numerous people already working to find novel ways of redefining society
(in order to become congruent with eternal principles) are now under attack by
culminating events.  "We wrestle not against flesh and blood," therefore,
we're targeting the true Enemy.  Owing to the pattern of scientific progress
(see Prof. Kuhn's paradigm studies), which unfolds according to a pattern that
cycles between a) insights of individual genius, and b) collective development
through established procedure, we need the optimum mix for carrying on the
battle--insightful individuals with a genius for collaboration. :)  

It turns out that our stated ambition strikes a chord with more respondents
than I can personally answer via email, so I exhort you to *call* with any
time-sensitive messages like for arranging visits, or whenever you wish to
accelerate the process of relocating & contributing to the establishment of a
"Galt's Gulch".  Please ask for Russ or Ginger at 256.546.5945, beginning on
the evening of Sunday, 11/15.  

Regards, Hugh Axton--oops--I mean Russ!  :)

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Nov 14 15:42:14 1998
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From: Gonv1@aol.com
Message-ID: <fab8f4c0.364e14e4@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 18:40:20 EST
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Subject: about these complaint letters...
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does everybody on this list just sit and bitch about the people who don't know
as much on this stuff as you people?  i mean the point in joining the list in
the first place is to learn more about this stuff. if you want a list where
there's ONLY intelligent conversation then go to a university list or
somethin. Bill B's list is posted on his site so people who don't know as much
but are interested can learn more about it, not just for the people who
already know the stuff.  I for one don't know much at all about this stuff,
i'm just interested in science,  but i joined because of bill b's suggestion
of joining in hopes of finding help in building one of T.T. Brown's
antigravitic discs, but, aside from the interesting mails about hydroxy
research and whatnot, i got a ton of complaint mails.  Stop this shit, cuz you
guys are acting more childish than the people you don't wanna deal with.

I thought scientific minds had more tolerance than you've all shown

BTW--i wrote this email because i really don't want to hear more complaining
about "people lacking similiar mentality cluttering up this list", because i
find the subjects you all speak about very interesting, even though i can't
really understand some of the technical jargon.

    I still try to understand nonetheless, and isn't that the POINT in sharing
information? So you can show others your findings and hope that they can
understand and then build what you've discussed?  If this isnt' the point in
these lists, then why are you wasting prescious time writing long emails
describing your findings and sending it out?  Just be a stingy little old man
stuck in a dimly lit poorly funded lab for your entire life and keep your
findings in a little notebook, so when there's a fire it'll burn and then your
life's work can go down the drain, like the majority of scientists back in the
day.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Nov 14 18:40:10 1998
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From: Yerbam@aol.com
Message-ID: <2c4671a.364e3e98@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 21:38:16 EST
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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Subject: Lafonte's tests results look right
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Hi,
I have ran tests in an attempt to duplicate Butch LaFonte's neutralizing of a
temporary magnet (" hard ferro-magnetic" steel as he calls it). I got the same
results as he did and I wonder if this behavior of the steel might really be a
way to overunity in magnet motors or generators. Has anyone ran their own
tests and if so, do you see it as having the potential I see it having. It
takes so little to magnetize the steel if you use a balance system he has so
often illustrated, and the field can be collapsed with such a small amount of
energy. This leaves the entire field of the magnetized steel for work. Thats
the ways it looks to me.
Any comments?
Mike Mabrey

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Nov 14 23:14:45 1998
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Message-ID: <000e01be1067$7a7f6dc0$96d2989e@david-callaghan>
From: "David Callaghan" <DCallaghan@CallaghanSystems.Demon.Co.Uk>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: [Off Topic] - about these complaint letters...
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 07:00:00 -0000
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Hi Gonv1

As this seems to be your first post to this list, how have people got your
address to complain to you?

Apart from the odd tit-for-tat, people are generally helpful and friendly
here.

Best regards

David Callaghan

-----Original Message-----
From: Gonv1@aol.com <Gonv1@aol.com>

>does everybody on this list just sit and bitch about the people who don't
know
>as much on this stuff as you people?  i mean the point in joining the list
in
[SNIP]


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Nov 14 23:14:47 1998
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From: "David Callaghan" <DCallaghan@CallaghanSystems.Demon.Co.Uk>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Splitting Water
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 07:05:37 -0000
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Hi All

My current issue of New Scientist (14 November 98) has an article describing
using copper oxide and stirring alone to split water at room temperature.
As yet the results have not been verified, and the Japanese chemist says
they only 5% of the mechanical energy is used to split the water, - but he
is hoping to increase this.

I can't browse to check at the minute, but the story may be available
somewhere off:
www.newscientist.com


Try a search on "Domen" (The scientist's surname)

The article is titled "Stirred and shaken - Japanese chemists commit the
heresy of saying mechanical energy drives a chemical reaction"

I wonder if his stirring created a nice big vortex??

Best regards

David Callaghan



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Nov 14 23:14:49 1998
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From: "David Callaghan" <DCallaghan@CallaghanSystems.Demon.Co.Uk>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Hydroxy research tests - things to remember
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 07:11:53 -0000
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Hi 'Plasmatic' and All

Using sea water would probably produce a lot of sodium hypochlorite (common
bleach), chlorine gas, hydrogen and oxygen amongst other things.  If you
take the lid off you will see the water turn green after a while.

Best regards

David Callaghan


-----Original Message-----
From: Plasmatic <plas@dlcwest.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Saturday 14 November 1998 07:22
Subject: Re: Hydroxy research tests - things to remember

>    Just a thought, but wouldn't sea water be a good electrolyte, not to
>mention probably the healthiest?  We know that electrolysis happens in
[SNIP]


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 15 07:56:39 1998
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Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 11:03:41 -0500
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: "Dennis C. Lee" <atech@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Hydroxy resistant material?
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Hi;

Is there a material resistant to hydroxy dissociation effects?

Regards;
Dennis


Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 15 11:01:25 1998
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From: Gonv1@aol.com
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Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 13:57:05 EST
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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<< As this seems to be your first post to this list, how have people got your
 address to complain to you? >>

i wrote this off my other name because i really don't wanna hear the
complainers bitch some more.


And I never said to me, just generally speaking. i never posted anything
because like i said, i don't know as much as everyone else, but i'm trying to
understand it. i think i've read about 3-5 flame mails since i joined about
kids who are sending out off topic things.  So big deal, a kid sent ONE email
bout an alien picture. i should flame the complainers for lack of tolerance.
some of the people on the list are thinking of leaving altogether and creating
or joining other lists. if you really want to do so, what's stopping you?  I'm
in HIGH SCHOOL, and I've never heard so much complaining in my life about such
trivial things.  maybe it's time for some other people to grow up.  college
degrees aren't what makes you that.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 15 12:32:10 1998
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Message-ID: <000601be10d6$f78225a0$49fd07d0@r.davis>
Reply-To: "R. A. Davis" <rad205@desupernet.net>
From: "R. A. Davis" <rad205@desupernet.net>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: [Off Topic] - about these complaint letters...
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 15:31:45 -0500
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sorry, i just signed on today and don't know what you're talking about.
Whatever is going on,      I HOPE YOU DON'T LOSE YOUR INTELLECTUAL CURIOSITY
BECAUSE  OF SOMETHING THAT HAPPENS ON A WEBSITE.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gonv1@aol.com <Gonv1@aol.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Sunday, November 15, 1998 3:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Off Topic] - about these complaint letters...


><< As this seems to be your first post to this list, how have people got
your
> address to complain to you? >>
>
>i wrote this off my other name because i really don't wanna hear the
>complainers bitch some more.
>
>
>And I never said to me, just generally speaking. i never posted anything
>because like i said, i don't know as much as everyone else, but i'm trying
to
>understand it. i think i've read about 3-5 flame mails since i joined about
>kids who are sending out off topic things.  So big deal, a kid sent ONE
email
>bout an alien picture. i should flame the complainers for lack of
tolerance.
>some of the people on the list are thinking of leaving altogether and
creating
>or joining other lists. if you really want to do so, what's stopping you?
I'm
>in HIGH SCHOOL, and I've never heard so much complaining in my life about
such
>trivial things.  maybe it's time for some other people to grow up.  college
>degrees aren't what makes you that.
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 15 19:30:50 1998
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Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 02:05:59 -0800
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Subject: Re: Hydroxy resistant material?
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Designing with Hydroxy

Each and every material has it's own special way of reacting to Hydroxy.
Although this new discovery offers new challenges based upon its unique
interaction with mater, the examined and learned consistencies make the
problems of design, with regard to Hydroxy based technologies a simple
mater of familiarization.

In one of my first designs of a tungsten ore extraction system, the
fabricators of the Rotary Kiln, were taken back, by my choice of Aluminum
as the liner of the Kiln.  How could I hope to boil vaporize the tungsten,
6000` C. or about 11,000` F., in a vessel that that was made of material
that would melt at 1200` F.?

The key lies in Aluminum's low reaction to hydroxy's' effects, and the
relative abrasive qualities of Aluminum itself. Aluminum has the conductive
ability to transfer much heat, as the materials to be processed become
heated to beyond the point of incandescence, issuing up the oxide of
tungsten. The tungsten oxide, now separated, to be later collected on
electrostatic plates, then left the silicates behind. The cohesiveness of
the silicates that suspended the original ore, beaded up and then rolled
along on the surface of the aluminum, their surface contact being minimal
in the heat conduction of hear one to another of these remaining materials.
A simple draft fan of low volume, is all that is needed to propel the
tungsten oxide out of the enclosure and on to the electrostatic plates for
collection. Spiral groves, etched into the aluminum, work like small
tracks, allowing the glass like silicate beads to then travel to the upper
end of the kiln to be deposited in a hopper or on to a conveyer.  The flame
rack is supported on the central axis of the rotary kiln, and can be
adjusted in its angle of attack on the moving front of the material inside.

The variables of processing are; the feed of materials, the speed of
rotation, the incline of the drum eminent or alignment of the axis of
rotation, the flame concentration and gas pressure of the liner flame rack
and spaced orifices, and finally the draft volume and speed of air flow. In
the finished design we could alter any one of these variables. With regard
to the flame racks we had two feed manifolds every third orifice was
circuit (a) and the second and third orifices were circuit (B). This
allowed operation at 1/3 potential, 2/3 potential of all on, full flame.
This allowed us to tune any of the variables in the system.

One critical thing remains to be understood in considering this example.
The heat associated with hydroxides reactions of differing materials does
not come from the flame itself, but is a function if the meatballs reaction
to the type of energy contained in Hydroxy.  The radiant heat of lack of
it, is dependent on the material, not the flame. Hydroxy is a non-radiant
heat source. The flame has no heat.  It can however produce much heat but
only to the degree of reaction of the specific material.

This is not fire, but rather demands that we regard it as New Fire.
Similar, but quite distinct from any previous understanding of combustion.

In this first test unit we added fins, to the outside of the drum, and it
worked very well.  In a full size unit a cooling jacket would be surely
needed.

Designing application systems, that employ Hydroxy technologies, will
undoubtedly some day be a vast science.  The cornerstone of this science
will simply be to become knowledgeable of the reactions of all materials to
this gas.  It's clean non-polluting qualities, ease of production, and
unique properties insure this.  I simply have had the good fortune to be in
the right place, at the right time, to be one of the first.  Many will
follow me and displace my feeble systems with ever more functional systems.
 Given even the execrated pace in which scientific development travels
throughout society, it still will probably be our children who benefit from
this early work, but benefit they will!

They say, that the next century will be the Chinese Century.  This may be
true.  If it is to be that China will rise to dominate the industrial
world, it will be because of their understanding of Yull Browns gift,
Hydroxy technology.  China now is free, to enter into a world of "non
polluting" industrialization.  Imagine if you will a nation of 1.4 billion
people, running all of their factories and processes on a solar derived
energy, of infinite power. They have no great vested interest to push
aside. Clean fuel at the flip of a switch? 

A society that will be shaped much by the limitations of this fuel as
anything else.  We in our greed, look at the connection of solar power and
Hydroxy gas as a limitation. What good is a fuel system that only offers
power 10 hours a day? Our factories will have to shut down at night, how
unthinkable. Our production efficiencies and man power allocations will all
be thrown off! 

Many of you know that I have spent a great deal of time in the Orient, so
you may follow my thinking here. I believe, that the daytime limitations to
the use Solar/Hydroxy systems that stymie the Western acceptance, will be
the vary issues that foster the acceptance in the East.  Based on a closer
understanding of the need to be one with the natural rhythms of life,
Hydroxy's limitations of natural daylight cycles may well be seen as a
sign, or omen, and lend to the East embracing this technology more quickly.
 What good is it, to make steel 24 hours per day, if your cities are choked
out because of it?  Up with the chickens, home with the family at night,
might well appeal to the factory worker of the new China. 

A new age is upon us, but it will not be in the hands of the West.

For more on what china is doing with this technology.

See; Beijing Institute of Technology.  Run a list of the scientific
departments. You will see a new department, implosion technologies.  Now,
find that department at any university in the US, Canada, or Europe.  

The change has begun.

TR Knudtson





At 11:03 AM 11/15/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi;
>
>Is there a material resistant to hydroxy dissociation effects?
>
>Regards;
>Dennis
>
>
>Tall Ships
>http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html
>
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 15 21:41:21 1998
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: laphaes <laphaes@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: future horizons
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Does anyone have any experience with the company future horizons
http://www.futurehorizons.net/energy/   they sell a variety of plans
dealing with free energy,  lasers,  etc,  and while some of the plans look
outrageous and improbable,  some look decent.  I was wondering if anyone
knew if this company is legit or not.   
																	Thanks
																	Laph

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 15 23:59:24 1998
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Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 02:58:27 -0500
From: Ralph E Griffin <ralph_griffin@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Patent Information
Sender: Ralph E Griffin <ralph_griffin@compuserve.com>
To: Free Energy List <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
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"Plasmatic" wrote

>From the buisness prospective, we are only 14, and are only planning to
>sell these to friends for now.  We might even start selling them around
>our town (1500 people), but nowhere big.

I am not an expert on patents, but I did read a couple of books on the
subject. One thing I read that really stands out in my mind is this:

If you make any money at all from your invention before you apply for the
patent, then your patent will be invalid. If you try to enforce your
patent by law suite, and if your opponent investigates the history of the
invention carefully (as any smart and well financed opponent would do), 
then it is likely that they would collect evidence of you sales before
application for the patent, in which case, there would be no way you could
prevail.
   

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 15 23:59:25 1998
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laphaes wrote:
> 
> Does anyone have any experience with the company future horizons
> http://www.futurehorizons.net/energy/   they sell a variety of plans
> dealing with free energy,  lasers,  etc,  and while some of the plans look
> outrageous and improbable,  some look decent.  I was wondering if anyone
> knew if this company is legit or not.
>                                                                                                                                         Thanks
>                                                                                                                                         Laph


They have some spectacular claims like this:

                            Antigravity Disc-
                      Its finally here! This 3 ft triangular antigravity
disc can take off and land
                      vertically, it can hover, tilt and bank in mid-air
and land again. It uses no
                      moving parts or propellers. Works on ionocraft
principle. Built from carbon
                      fiber composite materials. This is a great
showpiece for the technology and
                      also makes a great window display and conversation
piece. We are the
                      only company in the world to offer a working
antigravity craft for sale. Yes
                      this is FOR REAL! We hope to sell enough of these
to help raise money to
                      build a 12ft triangular craft!
                      (Photos and downloadable video clips coming soon)
                      #ANGD Assembled and tested----$1,250.00 


If someone can call them and ask what technology this is based on, I
would be glad
to hear that !
They only have a P.O Box address:

Future Horizons
                                                   Po Box 125
                                           Marquette, Mich 49855
                                                      U.S.A.


Regards, Stefan.


--
Hartmann Multimedia Service,  Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
Tel: ++ 49 30-345 00 497  FAX: ++ 49 30-345 00 498
email: harti@harti.com  Web site: http://www.harti.com
http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB !

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 16 00:04:49 1998
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laphaes wrote:
> 
> Does anyone have any experience with the company future horizons
> http://www.futurehorizons.net/energy/   they sell a variety of plans
> dealing with free energy,  lasers,  etc,  and while some of the plans look
> outrageous and improbable,  some look decent.  I was wondering if anyone
> knew if this company is legit or not.
>                                                                                                                                         Thanks
>                                                                                                                                         Laph


They have some spectacular claims like this:


--
Hartmann Multimedia Service,  Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
Tel: ++ 49 30-345 00 497  FAX: ++ 49 30-345 00 498
email: harti@harti.com  Web site: http://www.harti.com
http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB !

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 16 01:15:46 1998
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Stefan Hartmann wrote:
> 
> laphaes wrote:
<SNIP>
> They have some spectacular claims like this:
> 
>                          Antigravity Disc-
> Its finally here! This 3 ft triangular antigravity
> disc can take off and land
> vertically, it can hover, tilt and bank in mid-air
> and land again. It uses no
> moving parts or propellers. Works on ionocraft
> principle. Built from carbon
>fiber composite materials. This is a great
> showpiece for the technology and
> also makes a great window display and conversation
> piece. We are the
> only company in the world to offer a working
> antigravity craft for sale. Yes
> this is FOR REAL! We hope to sell enough of these
> to help raise money to
>  build a 12ft triangular craft!
> (Photos and downloadable video clips coming soon)
> #ANGD Assembled and tested----$1,250.00
> 
> If someone can call them and ask what technology this is based on, I
> would be glad
> to hear that !
<SNIP>
> Regards, Stefan.
> 
The keyword is 'IONOCRAFT', the Patent# 3,130,945; awarded
to A.P. De Seversky on  April 28,1964. It's written up in
'The Free-Energy Device Handbook', compiled by David Hatcher
Childress, 1994, Adventures Unlimited Press, ISBN
0-932813-24-0. You can find it on page 273. Note that De
Seversky built a few working models, utilizing balsa wood &
copper screens <to the best of my recollection>. I think
that using currently available carbon-fibre composites &
metallized fabrics & solid-state microelectronics would
significantly boost the performance.

 Here's an excerpt:

 "Crafts of the type herein disclosed having effective areas
of several square feet have been successfully flown and
contemplated platforms will inherently be of large size
since the lift force is proportional to the area through
which large quantities or masses of air are accelerated
downwardly from discharge electrodes to collection
electrodes, the latter being a meshed-screen, bars, strips
or any other structure that provides maximum collecting
electrode area with perforations, slots or other types of
opening to allow the air to pass through with a minimum of
drag. Such a craft will be referred to in this application
as an IONOCRAFT." 

Any RF Modellers out there?

--Khem Caigan
<frob@bway.net>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 16 02:36:01 1998
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MATTIARO@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Hello!
>   First of all, I do not know anything about the company.  The only 
> knowledge I have about the "thing" is what you wrote.
>   In their ad, they said that the amount of lift depends on the amount > of air passing above the craft.  To me it sounds that they are using 
> the Bernoulli principle.  They are blowing air on top.  This increases > the velocity of air.
> According to Bernoulli:
>              dV = 1/dP
> d = delta (Change in)
> V= velosity
> P= pressure
> 
>   When the velocity of air is higher on top, then the pressure is less > on top.
> If the pressure is less, it lifts the "craft". This is the same 
> function that gives lift to airplane wings.
>   1,200 dollars for it.  Try it with a vacuum cleaner's exhaust.  It 
> is the same thing.
> 
> Conclusion:
>   Don't waste your money.
> 
>   Matti
>   mattiaro@aol.com

Matti--

 As you rightly point out, the Ionocraft DOES employ
Bernoulli's principle, by creating an area of relative low
pressure above the craft, and another area of high pressure
below it. In effect, it's a Fan that blows air downward,
albeit an Expensive one. However, the 'Gimmick' employed
here DOES NOT utilize ANY MOVING PARTS; rather, it generates
an 'ionic wind' through its electrified mesh.

 Can't speak to future horizons' claim to have duplicated
the effect, & I certainly wouldn't presume to tell anybody
how to spend their dough. But the principle stands, & it CAN
be independently verified.

--Khem Caigan
<frob@bway.net>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 16 12:21:30 1998
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From: JNaudin509@aol.com
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Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:11:07 EST
To: leoguitar@vossnet.de, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com,
        ddameron@earthlink.net, WDBAUER@vossnet.de, bauer_d@FHI-Berlin.MPG.DE,
        fepps@halcyon.com, mrand@iols.net, tv@juno.com,
        josephnewman@earthlink.net, ralph.hartwell@emachine.com,
        bshannon@tiac.net, Puthoff@aol.com
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On 16/11/98 20:41:30 Paris, Madrid, harti@harti.com wrote :

> I think we found now the MAIN EFFECT on which the Newman
>  back current spikes are based on :
>  
>  It is a corona discharge effect when using big coils and a mechanical
>  arc gap !!! It only appears, when the arc gap makes a "hissing" sound
>  !!!
>  
>  
>  These huge negative back current spikes which flow back into the power
>  source only occur, when we had a "hissing" sound at the contacts !
>  
>  Jean Louis Naudin was right, when he stated, that he could optimize the
>  negative
>  current pulses, when he used a very washed out aluminium sliding
>  contact commutator, where he had lots of sparks !
>  

Hi Stefan and All,

Good work Stefan !!!  I am glad that you have been able to reproduce the main
effect that I have noticed during my previous Newman's machine tests.
Yes, I fully agree with you, the main effect is located IN the spark gap and
the commutator setup is one of the key of this machine !!

I look forward impatiently to receive more feedback from you about next tests
and measurments,

Keep up your good work and your will to share the knowledge with all of us.

Best Regards,

Jean-Louis Naudin

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 16 13:17:36 1998
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Message-ID: <36506456.A130232D@zippnet.net>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 09:43:50 -0800
From: pat weissleader <lizardhaven@zippnet.net>
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i saw a lantern sold in edmund scientific-florescent light, you have
annonde of (aluminum?) and add salt water for light.  is this something
i could build at home and save the $50 ?

--
Patricia Weissleader at Lizardhaven Ranch
'where the critter meets the glitter'


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 16 14:39:45 1998
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        Newman-L Mailing List <newman-l@emachine.com>, toups@toupstech.com,
        Jean Louis Naudin <jnaudin509@aol.com>,
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Subject: Newman coil spark gap effect ideal for AquaFuel(tm) ?
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Hi All,

as I have throught, how one could use the new discovered
Newman coil "hissing sound" spark gap effect,
I came again across the AquaFuel(tm) homepage at:

http://www.toupstech.com/aquafuel/toups-summary-english.html

Maybe it would be ideal to try this with powering the Aquafuel(tm)
process via a big Newman coil and generate the spark gap
under water to produce this AquaFuel(tm) with almost NO COST
for electricity or very much reduced cost compared
to the normal used power for this process !

Maybe one could modify a normal car motor to run on this
AquaFuel generated via a Newman type coil spark gap ?

If this "hissing sound" corona discharge effect will 
also take place inside water, then AquaFuel(tm) could be produced
at almost no cost for electricity !

Regards, Stefan.

P.S.: AquaFuel(tm) is a trademark of Toups Technology Licensing Inc. 

--
Hartmann Multimedia Service,  Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
Tel: ++ 49 30-345 00 497  FAX: ++ 49 30-345 00 498
email: harti@harti.com  Web site: http://www.harti.com
http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB !

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 16 15:35:57 1998
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dave dameron wrote:
> 
> Hi Stefan and all,
> At 08:36 PM 11/16/98 +0100, Stefan Hartmann wrote:
> 
> >Now I know it really depends on the "spark flame" and the hissing sound
> >!
> >When we had a blue flame at the arc gap, there was no hissing sound !
> >Then the input current stayed just at a constant DC amperage level!
> >
> >If I did further open the arc gap contacts, suddenly the hissing sound
> >appears and then the negative staircase back current pulses appear !
> >They last as long as the "hissing sound" can last !
> >
> >That means, the effect must be based on a special corona discharge
> >effect.
> 
> Maybe you can charge a (HV) capacitor and then run the coil/motor off it.
> You can compare the times with a blue arc and then the "hissing sound" arc.
> Do you have an estimate of the input current from your power supply for both
> cases? Maybe the "hissing sound" arc may have more metal electrode ions, so
> even though the arc is longer, the loss (resistance) is less???
> -Dave

Hi Dave,
well yes, I will study these effects on upcoming friday,
when I will be again at the university.

I will try to build various spark gaps now to see, what kind of metal
or carbon electrodes arc gaps will produce the best "hissing sound"
sparks and at what setup there will be the best negative current output.

As the non hissing blue arc crosses a longer distance, it is
the white colored flame hissing sound spark, which just makes the
effect.
And the white spark only appears before the blue arc or after the blue
arc.
So it depends on the distance of the electrodes !
I would say:
about 0.1 to 0.3 mm electrode distance:  White arc hissing sound, big
back current pulses !
about 0.4 to 1.5 mm electrode distance: Blue arc, NO hiss, NO back
current pulses !
about 1.5 mm electrode distance: blue arc goes into white arc and
disappears, hissing sound, big back current pulses !

Although I have to recheck that again next friday.
That was related to about 620 Volts of DC input voltage into the 16.9
KOhm coil.

Regards, Stefan.

--
Hartmann Multimedia Service,  Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
Tel: ++ 49 30-345 00 497  FAX: ++ 49 30-345 00 498
email: harti@harti.com  Web site: http://www.harti.com
http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB !

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 16 15:46:06 1998
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Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:45:05 -0600
From: Daniel Joyce <dj38302@swt.edu>
Subject: Thoughts on OU machines
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Okay, after reading the research, it seems 2 principles are the basis
for many machines.


	Using magnets as a mechanical means to do work...
	
	See Smot, Finsrud, Other designs, like Johnson PMM.


	Using magnets to tap into radiant energies of some kind...
	
	Sweet VTA, Coler machine, Hendershot Generator, Newman motor.
	
	I hold back on describing what this energy is. Most likely it is
Tesla's idea of earth's radiant current/voltage. Air potential, flux
lines, what have you... On the order of 2.5 billion gigawatts is what
Tesla said, if I remember correctly.  
	Less likely is ambient heat pumping, and ZPE.
	If it is ambient heat pumping, that would explain the fact that some of
these devices run 'cold'.
	In the literature, I have been unable to confirm some aspects of the
more peculiar effects of some of these devices.
	
	The other ones are machines that use some sort of QM based device or
vacuum tubes.

	GSEA, Moray generator, Scalar battery charger, etc.

	In the case of vac tubes, they may tap into 'radiant' energy, while
quantum devices may most likely work by using ambient heat and/or ZPE.	
	

	-Daniel

	Just throwing ideas around...

	Has anyone tried recreating the effects of the "poltergeist machine"?
Maybe we should all get together, and bring our HV stuff, and cram it in
a small room :). 
	In the original case of the effect, was the room faraday shileded?

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-----Original Message-----
From: Stefan Hartmann <harti@harti.com>
To: dave dameron <ddameron@earthlink.net>; Jean Louis Naudin
<jnaudin509@aol.com>; Newman-L Mailing List <newman-l@emachine.com>;
freenrg-l <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>; Evan Soule <josephnewman@earthlink.net>
Date: Monday, November 16, 1998 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: Important Newman spark gap distances !



Hi All,

I recall something about spark gaps mentioned in the Edwin Grey patents.  It
is many years since I read it and can't give any detailed information, but I
suggest you look them up, you could be onto something very important here.

Good luck in your experiments....

Rob
>dave dameron wrote:
>>
>> Hi Stefan and all,
>> At 08:36 PM 11/16/98 +0100, Stefan Hartmann wrote:
>>
>> >Now I know it really depends on the "spark flame" and the hissing sound
>> >!
>> >When we had a blue flame at the arc gap, there was no hissing sound !
>> >Then the input current stayed just at a constant DC amperage level!
>> >
>> >If I did further open the arc gap contacts, suddenly the hissing sound
>> >appears and then the negative staircase back current pulses appear !
>> >They last as long as the "hissing sound" can last !
>> >
>> >That means, the effect must be based on a special corona discharge
>> >effect.
>>
>> Maybe you can charge a (HV) capacitor and then run the coil/motor off it.
>> You can compare the times with a blue arc and then the "hissing sound"
arc.
>> Do you have an estimate of the input current from your power supply for
both
>> cases? Maybe the "hissing sound" arc may have more metal electrode ions,
so
>> even though the arc is longer, the loss (resistance) is less???
>> -Dave
>
>Hi Dave,
>well yes, I will study these effects on upcoming friday,
>when I will be again at the university.
>
>I will try to build various spark gaps now to see, what kind of metal
>or carbon electrodes arc gaps will produce the best "hissing sound"
>sparks and at what setup there will be the best negative current output.
>
>As the non hissing blue arc crosses a longer distance, it is
>the white colored flame hissing sound spark, which just makes the
>effect.
>And the white spark only appears before the blue arc or after the blue
>arc.
>So it depends on the distance of the electrodes !
>I would say:
>about 0.1 to 0.3 mm electrode distance:  White arc hissing sound, big
>back current pulses !
>about 0.4 to 1.5 mm electrode distance: Blue arc, NO hiss, NO back
>current pulses !
>about 1.5 mm electrode distance: blue arc goes into white arc and
>disappears, hissing sound, big back current pulses !
>
>Although I have to recheck that again next friday.
>That was related to about 620 Volts of DC input voltage into the 16.9
>KOhm coil.
>
>Regards, Stefan.
>
>--
>Hartmann Multimedia Service,  Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
>Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
>Tel: ++ 49 30-345 00 497  FAX: ++ 49 30-345 00 498
>email: harti@harti.com  Web site: http://www.harti.com
>http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB !
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 16 17:30:40 1998
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Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 01:29:14 +0100
From: Stefan Hartmann <harti@harti.com>
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        Newman-L Mailing List <newman-l@emachine.com>, toups@toupstech.com,
        Jean Louis Naudin <jnaudin509@aol.com>,
        dave dameron <ddameron@earthlink.net>, Fred Epps <fepps@halcyon.com>,
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        Evan Soule <josephnewman@earthlink.net>, dwenbert@spacey.net,
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Subject: AquaFuel(tm) on demand ?
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Hi All,

maybe one could use the new discovered
Newman coil "hissing sound" spark gap effect,
for generating  AquaFuel(tm) on demand ?

Maybe this would be great for modifying a
normal gas driven car motor into an AquaFuel(tm)
driven motor and you only need to refill
water at the gas station and each 1000 miles
you just change the carbon rods electrodes !


See again:

http://www.toupstech.com/aquafuel/toups-summary-english.html

which also claims, that he AquaFuel(tm) process itsself can be over 100
% efficient !

Maybe it would be ideal to try this with powering the Aquafuel(tm)
process via a big Newman coil and generate the spark gap
under water to produce this AquaFuel(tm) with almost NO COST
for electricity or very much reduced cost compared
to the normal used power for this process !


Regards, Stefan.

P.S.: AquaFuel(tm) is a trademark of Toups Technology Licensing Inc. 

--
Hartmann Multimedia Service,  Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
Tel: ++ 49 30-345 00 497  FAX: ++ 49 30-345 00 498
email: harti@harti.com  Web site: http://www.harti.com
http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB !

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 16 18:04:42 1998
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From: RHammar860@aol.com
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Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 20:52:24 EST
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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Subject: Re: Important Newman spark gap distances !
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Yes in the Edwin Grey motor he used a spark gap to make the HV for the coils
that he had with the gap size you can control the voltage size and he as it
went to grown it made the magnetic feild in the coil and the back EMF he used
to charge his batteries. I have got a lot of information and have found his
family and hope to build a small motor soon.

Ron 
 
 I recall something about spark gaps mentioned in the Edwin Grey patents.  It
 is many years since I read it and can't give any detailed information, but I
 suggest you look them up, you could be onto something very important here.
 
 Good luck in your experiments....
 
 Rob
 >dave dameron wrote:
 >>
 >> Hi Stefan and all,
 >> At 08:36 PM 11/16/98 +0100, Stefan Hartmann wrote:
 >>
 >> >Now I know it really depends on the "spark flame" and the hissing sound
 >> >!
 >> >When we had a blue flame at the arc gap, there was no hissing sound !
 >> >Then the input current stayed just at a constant DC amperage level!
 >> >
 >> >If I did further open the arc gap contacts, suddenly the hissing sound
 >> >appears and then the negative staircase back current pulses appear !
 >> >They last as long as the "hissing sound" can last !
 >> >
 >> >That means, the effect must be based on a special corona discharge
 >> >effect.
 >>
 >> Maybe you can charge a (HV) capacitor and then run the coil/motor off it.
 >> You can compare the times with a blue arc and then the "hissing sound"
 arc.
 >> Do you have an estimate of the input current from your power supply for
 both
 >> cases? Maybe the "hissing sound" arc may have more metal electrode ions,
 so
 >> even though the arc is longer, the loss (resistance) is less???
 >> -Dave
 >
 >Hi Dave,
 >well yes, I will study these effects on upcoming friday,
 >when I will be again at the university.
 >
 >I will try to build various spark gaps now to see, what kind of metal
 >or carbon electrodes arc gaps will produce the best "hissing sound"
 >sparks and at what setup there will be the best negative current output.
 >
 >As the non hissing blue arc crosses a longer distance, it is
 >the white colored flame hissing sound spark, which just makes the
 >effect.
 >And the white spark only appears before the blue arc or after the blue
 >arc.
 >So it depends on the distance of the electrodes !
 >I would say:
 >about 0.1 to 0.3 mm electrode distance:  White arc hissing sound, big
 >back current pulses !
 >about 0.4 to 1.5 mm electrode distance: Blue arc, NO hiss, NO back
 >current pulses !
 >about 1.5 mm electrode distance: blue arc goes into white arc and
 >disappears, hissing sound, big back current pulses !
 >
 >Although I have to recheck that again next friday.
 >That was related to about 620 Volts of DC input voltage into the 16.9
 >KOhm coil.
 >
 >Regards, Stefan.
 >

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 16 18:27:09 1998
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Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 20:36:09 +0100
From: Stefan Hartmann <harti@harti.com>
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        "W.D. Bauer" <WDBAUER@vossnet.de>,
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Subject: Important Newman machine measurement results !
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Hi All,

I just came back from our Technical university in Berlin,
where I  made today new scope measurements on my old Newman
machine setup now in various conditions.

I think we found now the MAIN EFFECT on which the Newman
back current spikes are based on :

It is a corona discharge effect when using big coils and a mechanical
arc gap !!! It only appears, when the arc gap makes a "hissing" sound
!!!


These huge negative back current spikes which flow back into the power
source only occur, when we had a "hissing" sound at the contacts !

Jean Louis Naudin was right, when he stated, that he could optimize the
negative
current pulses, when he used a very washed out aluminium sliding
contact commutator, where he had lots of sparks !

Now I know it really depends on the "spark flame" and the hissing sound
!
When we had a blue flame at the arc gap, there was no hissing sound !
Then the input current stayed just at a constant DC amperage level!

If I did further open the arc gap contacts, suddenly the hissing sound
appears and then the negative staircase back current pulses appear !
They last as long as the "hissing sound" can last !

That means, the effect must be based on a special corona discharge
effect.
Maybe it is related to the work of Mr. Corea with his "abnormal glow
discharge effect" and the work of the Russian Chernetski, who also
claimed 5 times more output than input when using special tubes plasma
discharges !

I found the effect, when I also tried the coil without the magnet.
It seems the permanent magnet motor rotor effect is only
a "byproduct" of the Newman machine and does not account much
to the duration of these back current pulses !

It works already alone with the coil and just when pulsing DC voltage
across the coil via this "hissing sound spark gap" !

I guess with the right contacts and the right distance of the spark gap
one can generate already a higher negative output than input , so that
it stays
for longer time in "hissing sound" mode ! Then an input current
amperemeter will just
read negative values, which means, power is coming out of the device !

The trick is now to find the right optimized arc gap.
The effect scales up with the size of the coil and its weight !

This is why Newman got much better results with his first big units.
There the coils were very big and the commutator was still so crude,
that he
had a big spark and much "hissing sound" at the commutator when the 
current was reversed to the coil.

I have recorded the negative current spikes and my experiments today at
the
university onto digital DV camcorder and will post later some pics and
movies
to my Website www.overunity.com .

Stay tuned !

Best regards, Stefan.



If you have


--
Hartmann Multimedia Service,  Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
Tel: ++ 49 30-345 00 497  FAX: ++ 49 30-345 00 498
email: harti@harti.com  Web site: http://www.harti.com
http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB !

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 16 21:26:03 1998
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Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 00:14:04 -0500
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, KeelyNet@DallasTexas.net,
        Fred Walter <fredw@mks.com>, "Kurush K Mistry" <kmistry@execulink.com>,
        mnryan@execulink.com, donadams <donadams@telusplanet.net>,
        "Bruce McBurney" <bmcburne@npiec.on.ca>
Subject: Hydroxy and N-Machine (DePalma) a match made in heaven?
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While researching - I found a patent on the construction of Bruce DePalma's
N - Machine at the following site:


http://depalma.pair.com/patent/patent.html

It occurred to me that the high current and low voltage N-machine described
in the above patent might just be the answer to the almost free production
of Hydroxy. In a smaller scale this could be used to run an auto for almost
free... very appealing indeed! Not to mention other applications.

What do you think?

Chris Gupta

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 16 21:26:03 1998
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        KeelyNet@DallasTexas.net, Fred Walter <fredw@mks.com>,
        "Kurush K Mistry" <kmistry@execulink.com>, mnryan@execulink.com,
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Subject: A good source of 5 and 12 power supplies
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I was just fooling around with an old discarded PC when it occurred to me
that these clunkers have a wonderful compact switching power supply (SPS)
fan and all. I checked 2 PCs. The 220 Watt one can produce 8 amps at +12V
and a wapping 23 amps at +5V while the other 145 Watt supply produced about
half that! 

2 or 3 would make a fantastic Rife-Bare (RB) power supply when coupled
(matched) properly, the small size of switching supplies is another bonus.
In my case this just made it about 30+% cheaper to make a RB device

I have seen so many old discarded PCs - now I wish I would have picked them
up. Even a new PC case, which includes the SPS, is only about $50 Cdn. But
old ones are all around.

Just imagine what one could do with these little beasties. BTW like many
sophisticated power supplies they to require a load to operate.

Chris Gupta



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 16 22:08:26 1998
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From: tv@juno.com
To: leoguitar@vossnet.de
Cc: freenrg-L@eskimo.com
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 19:59:09 -0800
Subject: Re: Important Newman machine measurement results !
Message-ID: <19981116.195911.2966.1.tv@juno.com>
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On Mon, 16 Nov 1998 20:36:09 +0100 Stefan Hartmann <harti@harti.com>
writes:
>Hi All,
>
>I just came back from our Technical university in Berlin,
>where I  made today new scope measurements on my old Newman
>machine setup now in various conditions.
>
>I think we found now the MAIN EFFECT on which the Newman
>back current spikes are based on :
>
>It is a corona discharge effect when using big coils and a mechanical
>arc gap !!! It only appears, when the arc gap makes a "hissing" sound
>!!!

Stephan this is exactly what Leon Dragone did with his newman
coils.  He also tuned his spark gaps for a hissing sound.  I heard
it myself.  Very distinctive.   It was a bluish arc instead of a white
arc.
It was the hissing arc that he claimed the anomalous energy.

>If I did further open the arc gap contacts, suddenly the hissing sound
>appears and then the negative staircase back current pulses appear !
>They last as long as the "hissing sound" can last !
>
>That means, the effect must be based on a special corona discharge
>effect.
>Maybe it is related to the work of Mr. Corea with his "abnormal glow
>discharge effect" and the work of the Russian Chernetski, who also
>claimed 5 times more output than input when using special tubes plasma
>discharges !

I think this also.

>
>I found the effect, when I also tried the coil without the magnet.
>It seems the permanent magnet motor rotor effect is only
>a "byproduct" of the Newman machine and does not account much
>to the duration of these back current pulses !
>It works already alone with the coil and just when pulsing DC voltage
>across the coil via this "hissing sound spark gap" !

Exactly what Leon Dragone said, the anomalous effect were present
with a magnet or no magnet.   This puzzled him since he had thought
that the magnet was the source of ambient energy coherence.

>I guess with the right contacts and the right distance of the spark 
>gap
>one can generate already a higher negative output than input , so that
>it stays
>for longer time in "hissing sound" mode ! Then an input current
>amperemeter will just
>read negative values, which means, power is coming out of the device !
>
>The trick is now to find the right optimized arc gap.
>The effect scales up with the size of the coil and its weight !

Dragone used a micrometer to "tune" his arc.

>
>This is why Newman got much better results with his first big units.
>There the coils were very big and the commutator was still so crude,
>that he
>had a big spark and much "hissing sound" at the commutator when the 
>current was reversed to the coil.
>
>I have recorded the negative current spikes and my experiments today 
>at the university onto digital DV camcorder and will post later some
pics and
>movies to my Website www.overunity.com .
>

I appreciate your efforts with this.  Although Newman is an interesting
character,
there is something even more interesting about his giant coils when then
they
are switched correctly.

Tim

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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 16 23:15:32 1998
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From: JNaudin509@aol.com
Message-ID: <a2d38ac1.36512251@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 02:14:25 EST
To: leoguitar@vossnet.de, ddameron@earthlink.net, newman-l@emachine.com,
        freenrg-l@eskimo.com, josephnewman@earthlink.net
Cc: harti@harti.com
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Subject: Re: Important Newman spark gap distances !
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Hi Stefan, Dave and all,

On 17/11/98 00:37:29 Paris, Madrid, harti@harti.com wrote:
>  So it depends on the distance of the electrodes !
>  I would say:
>  about 0.1 to 0.3 mm electrode distance:  White arc hissing sound, big
>  back current pulses !
>  about 0.4 to 1.5 mm electrode distance: Blue arc, NO hiss, NO back
>  current pulses !
>  about 1.5 mm electrode distance: blue arc goes into white arc and
>  disappears, hissing sound, big back current pulses !
>  

I fully agree with Stefan, I can also confirm this fact, if there is a white
and bright spark the back current vanish. This is the reason why I ahev been
conducted to build my special commutator design v1.4. All details about this
special commutator are explained in my web site at:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jlnaudin/html/NMac0629.htm

>  Although I have to recheck that again next friday.
>  That was related to about 620 Volts of DC input voltage into the 16.9
>  KOhm coil.
>  

Gooodd !!! we have approximately the same setup : I use 623V and a 17k Ohms
coil, so we can compare our results... What is your inductance value ? 

Stefan, could you please:

1)  Send us some scope pictures about your negative spikes observed ?, I would
like to copare with my previous measurments..
2)  Conduct some rotation speed measurements ?
3)  Build my special spikes currents rectifier ( see at:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jlnaudin/html/NMac0702.htm )
and tell me if you notice the asymetrical current flow that I have measured ?
(don't forget to use fast switching diodes ( like shottky diodes ))
4)  Check is the effect with and without the HV capacitor C1 ( mica cap ) ?
5) Tell us how much time the Newman's machine is able to run itself after the
power-off sequence ? I have been able to get 4mn30....

Thanks again for all your efforts, good luck in your experiment,

Best regards

Jean-Louis Naudin (11-19-98)
My Newman's Machine web page dedicated is at :
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jlnaudin/html/qmmv11.htm

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov 17 00:10:04 1998
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From: "dwenbert" <dwenbert@spacey.net>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>, <KeelyNet@DallasTexas.net>,
        "Fred Walter" <fredw@mks.com>,
        "Kurush K Mistry" <kmistry@execulink.com>, <mnryan@execulink.com>,
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Subject: Re: Hydroxy and N-Machine (DePalma) a match made in heaven?
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 03:05:34 -0500
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>It occurred to me that the high current and low voltage N-machine described
>in the above patent might just be the answer to the almost free production
>of Hydroxy. In a smaller scale this could be used to run an auto for almost
>free... very appealing indeed! Not to mention other applications.
>What do you think?


Chris:

I think that low current high voltage is the answer to the almost free
production of hydroxy, as Meyer (et al) have demonstrated.     There is a
significant amount of historical anecdotal evidence in support of the idea
of molecular resonance in water.   Pulsed HF/hv in the presence of a
continuous low voltage field makes logical and scientific sense.   What
remains to be seen is if the HF/hv which eminates from a Newmanesque system
can be of the appropriate frequency to trigger the dissociation.   One might
suspect that there is a pattern to all this, given the similarity of the
waveform between Newman output and Meyer input systems........

/Dave
David L. Wenbert
Great Power & Light Co.


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov 17 00:13:05 1998
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Subject: Re: Important Newman spark gap distances !
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Dear J.L.:

Will you attempt to engage the output of your Newman machine in the Meyer
water fuel cell configuration?   Take a look at the attached waveform and
tell me if it doesn't look familiar.......

/Dave
David L. Wenbert
Great Power & Light


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------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BE11D7.8B88ED00--

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov 17 00:34:26 1998
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From: JNaudin509@aol.com
Message-ID: <cfaf601.365134ea@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 03:33:46 EST
To: dwenbert@spacey.net
Cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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Subject: Re: Important Newman spark gap distances !
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On 17/11/98 09:14:19, dwenbert@spacey.net wrote :

> Dear J.L.:
>  
>  Will you attempt to engage the output of your Newman machine in the Meyer
>  water fuel cell configuration?   Take a look at the attached waveform and
>  tell me if it doesn't look familiar.......
>  
>  /Dave

Dear Dave,

Thanks for your for your suggesting, this can be a good idea for converting
the energy lost in the sparks in useable power. Stefan has also suggested this
with a kind of Aquafuel cell, good idea !!!
Until now, my main challenge with the Newman's machine, was "to catch" these
negative current spikes and convert it into useable power, may be that is a
good and simple way....

Could you please send me the attached picture with your dan1.htm file or could
you give me the correct URL ?, I have not received the pictures and diagrams
attached with your file.

Best Regards,

Jean-Louis Naudin

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov 17 06:37:40 1998
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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov 17 12:52:42 1998
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Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 16:54:14 -0500
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From: Bob Colvin <geet@friend.ly.net>
Subject: Re: Cisterns/self-sufficient housing
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At 06:53 AM 11/11/98 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Geoff: Although we live in a major urban center, we do not use city water.
>We collect our rain water into concrete cisterns and do NOT use chlorine
>due to serious health concerns. We use slow sand filters instead and UV.
>We are presently making a mock-up of a "zapper" (Dr. Hulda Clarke) for
>killing any potential pathogens, viruses, bacteria, etc. according to
>frequency. We also reuse our greywater. No need for the city sewer line.
>But we have not yet decided which O/U device (for co-generation) we should
>use to illustrate ZPE technology of the future. Jorg Ostrowski 
>__________________________________________________________________________
>On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, GEOFF EGEL wrote:
>> 
>> Most people In Country  Australia  use what we call rainwater tanks to
>> collect rainwater off their house roofs.
>> There are problems in doing this the city due to pollution in the rain water
>> ,acid raid for example.
>> In the country area where I live,
>> We have a major river passing through our region and even with filtered and
>> chlorinated water most here think it only fit for washing and then only just.
>> And besides after payment for the Tanks the water is free and we don't have
>> to rely on the goverment ultility.
>> >>
>> >>Cisterns are probably the most expedient method for collecting water; i.e.,
>> >>via gutters along the roof of existing structures.  Do you still recommend
>> >>your friend's (brother's?) food-grade plastic 55 gal. drums @ $35?
Have you
>> >>found another source?
>> >>
Hi,

You could use Silver Colloid to sterilize contaminated water also. Go to
their website for more information. It has saved me more than once from
severe food poisoning, etc.

http://www.sota-inc.com

Also Paul Pantone from GEET on the "Paul & Molly Show" announced that they
will put their "Water Maker" on the market by the first of the year
hopefully. It extracts moisture from the air using electricity, even in the
middle of a desert. Using a 5 kW generator as a power source, it generates
almost 10,000 gallons of water an hour! Smaller versions will be available
for campers and countertop use in a home. Listen in to the live show on
sunday mornings 7-9 am EST on "RealAudio", satellite, or Shortwave radio. Go
to their website for more information.

http://www.geet.com

Bob

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+                                 +
+   Bob Colvin - GEET of MD/WI    +
+                                 +
+  http://www.Friend.ly.Net/GEET  +
+                                 +
+      geet@friend.ly.net         +
+                                 +
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov 17 14:37:14 1998
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Message-ID: <3651FC5A.6940B39C@harti.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:44:42 +0100
From: Stefan Hartmann <harti@harti.com>
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Organization: Hartmann Multimedia Service
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, Rob Polley <rpolley@telusplanet.net>,
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Subject: Re: Important Newman spark gap distances !
References: <3acb767c.3650d6d8@aol.com>
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RHammar860@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Yes in the Edwin Grey motor he used a spark gap to make the HV for the coils
> that he had with the gap size you can control the voltage size and he as it
> went to grown it made the magnetic feild in the coil and the back EMF he used
> to charge his batteries. I have got a lot of information and have found his
> family and hope to build a small motor soon.
> 
> Ron
> 
>  I recall something about spark gaps mentioned in the Edwin Grey patents.  It
>  is many years since I read it and can't give any detailed information, but I
>  suggest you look them up, you could be onto something very important here.
> 
>  Good luck in your experiments....
> 
>  Rob
>

I must also still have his old patent on file.
Yes, it could be that spark gap driven motor can 
be easily overunity, cause the spark gap plasma introduces
this overunity current effects.

Best regards, Stefan.


--
Hartmann Multimedia Service,  Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
Tel: ++ 49 30-345 00 497  FAX: ++ 49 30-345 00 498
email: harti@harti.com  Web site: http://www.harti.com
http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB !

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov 17 17:27:58 1998
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Reply-To: <reed@zenergy.com>
From: "RNHuish" <reed@zenergy.com>
To: "Freenrg-L (E-mail)" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Dynamometer
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 18:19:14 -0700
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Our company recently purchased a 50 HP dynamometer if anyone has a motor or
engine which needs to be tested.

- Reed

------------------------------------------
Reed N Huish, President & CEO
Zenergy Corporation
5025 N Central Ave #414, Phoenix AZ 85012
Facsimile: 602.530.2549
Direct Email: mailto:reed@zenergy.com
General Email: mailto:info@zenergy.com
Internet: http://zenergy.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov 17 21:06:48 1998
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Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 19:44:33 -0500
To: rife-list@eskimo.com, Rifers@Majordomo.net, Fred Walter <fredw@mks.com>,
        freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Norman Wootan <normw@fastlane.net> (by way of mbgupta@julian.uwo.ca)
Subject: Re: A good source of 5 and 12 power supplies
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I salvage a lot of switching power supplies from big communication  and
computer
systems. I found that if you permanently connect a bleed resistor across
the output
terminals the supply will stay perfectly regulated other wise you are right
about
the possibilities of voltage runaway and failure due to lack of minimum load
reference voltage.  Works for me. Norm

Marcelo Puhl wrote:

> > From:          mbgupta@julian.uwo.ca
> > Subject:       A good source of 5 and 12 power supplies
>
> > I was just fooling around with an old discarded PC when it occurred to
me that
> > these clunkers have a wonderful compact switching power supply (SPS)
fan and
> > all. I checked 2 PCs. The 220 Watt one can produce 8 amps at +12V and a
> > wapping 23 amps at +5V while the other 145 Watt supply produced about half
> > that!
> >
> > Chris Gupta
> >
>
> One thing that have to be watched : those power supplies sample the +5V for
> voltage regulation.
>
> If you only load the +12V output, the voltage drops a little.
>
> They can be modified to get the feedback voltage from the +12V output, but
> will loose the +5V regulation.
>
> ---
> Marcelo Puhl
> mark@plug-in.com.br
>
>  -------------------------------------------------------------
>  To leave this list, email <listserver@dallastexas.net>
>            with the body text:  leave Keelynet
>     list archives and on line subscription forms are at
>            http://dallastexas.net/keelynet/
>  -------------------------------------------------------------

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov 17 21:11:28 1998
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        Fred Walter <fredw@mks.com>
From: Jim <n5qxd@stic.net> (by way of mbgupta@julian.uwo.ca)
Subject: Re: interesting web site
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Interesting motor design.

http://members.xoom.com/ciler/

Jim


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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov 17 23:02:49 1998
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Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 01:05:44 -0600
From: Daniel Joyce <dj38302@swt.edu>
Subject: OU Variconds
Sender: Briareos@swt.edu
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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I see people recreating the ZAEV experiment with Variconds, and the
problems of power measurement.

	Could a rectifier be built using Variconds? If so, would the roughly DC
current help in determining the power output of the circuit. The
Variconds, if they are extracting energy, should still show this effect
if used in a rectifier.

	-Daniel

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Nov 18 06:43:18 1998
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Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 07:41:05 -0700 (MST)
From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" <jdo@ucalgary.ca>
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Further to the above, I notice there will be a demonstration of his "Water
Torch" on Saturday Nov.28th in Cranbrook BC, in case anyone is interested.
Jorg Ostrowski

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Nov 18 07:17:27 1998
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Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 16:32:12 +0100
From: Stefan Hartmann <harti@harti.com>
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        freenrg-l <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>,
        Evan Soule <josephnewman@earthlink.net>,
        Jean Louis Naudin <jnaudin509@aol.com>,
        "W.D. Bauer" <WDBAUER@vossnet.de>,
        Dieter Bauer <bauer_d@FHI-Berlin.MPG.DE>,
        dave dameron <ddameron@earthlink.net>, Tim Vaughan <tv@juno.com>
Subject: Newman machine test pics and MPEGs Online !
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Hi All,

I have now uploaded my recent test results
from my Newman machine to my server at:

http://www.overunity.com/newman2


There are a few pics and MPEG movies.

The scope pics show the input current into the coil during operation
of my Newman machine.
Note, that the center line on the scope
is the ground position and that all current spikes go downward
and all normal input current goes upward.

The input current was sampled via a 10 Ohm shunt, so
1 div= 50 mA and the timebase was set to 5.33 msec /div.

Note, that the negative cuurrent spikes always
occured, when there was a spark at the commutator.

Without a spark, it did not occur !

So I think it is related to this hissing sound spark
at the commutator.

Also just powering the coil via a spark gap produced these
negative current pulses, so the real Newman effect is NOT the motor,
but a big coil running on a "tuned hissing sound" spark gap !
This is related to the work of Correa and Tchernetskij,
who have claimed, that there glow discharge can also be overunity.

Regards, Stefan.

--
Hartmann Multimedia Service,  Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
Tel: ++ 49 30-345 00 497  FAX: ++ 49 30-345 00 498
email: harti@harti.com  Web site: http://www.harti.com
http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB !

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Nov 18 09:26:39 1998
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Hello All !

>I see people recreating the ZAEV experiment with Variconds, and the
>problems of power measurement.

This depends from your instrumentation. If you have a storage scope perhaps
with data readout and you measure the voltages over the shunts then it
should be possible to calculate the power if you transfer the files into a
computer and use programs like IGOR, EXCEL, ORIGIN or similar.
If you do not have you have more to think, how to get your measurements !

>	Could a rectifier be built using Variconds? If so, would the roughly DC
>current help in determining the power output of the circuit. The
>Variconds, if they are extracting energy, should still show this effect
>if used in a rectifier.

Probable, they do not ! 
Contrary to (at least my) recent common belief a para- or ferroelectric
material cools down if a field is applied acc. to standard thermodynamics. A
dielectric material does the reverse ! It gets hot. The reverse takes place
if the capacitance is discharged .
The behavior of the adiabate can be derived from the adiabate equation.

                                    C_E  . (delta T) =  - V. T .(d D  OVER
d T)_E  . (delta E) 

This equation is quite analog to the normal adiabate equation in
thermodynamics for real gases.

                                    C_V  . (delta T) =  - T .(dP  OVER  d
T)_V  . (delta V) 

if you replace V by E and P by D  and multiply in the first equation the
volume V because E.D is an energy density. 

Whether a Zaev-effect can exist due to spark gap behavior similar existent
perhaps at Correa or Newman machine I do not know !

Best regards

Dieter Bauer

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Nov 18 09:53:07 1998
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From: JNaudin509@aol.com
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On 18/11/98 16:19:16 Paris, Madrid, harti@harti.com wrote :

> Also just powering the coil via a spark gap produced these
>  negative current pulses, so the real Newman effect is NOT the motor,
>  but a big coil running on a "tuned hissing sound" spark gap !
>  This is related to the work of Correa and Tchernetskij,
>  who have claimed, that there glow discharge can also be overunity.

Hi Stefan,

I am glad that you have observed and measured the SAME BACK CURRENT spikes
waves shape that  I have noticed on my own Newman's machine. This now confirms
that this effect is reproducible !!...

You may see the spikes signals comparison (your signal and mine) at :

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jlnaudin/html/NMac1118.htm

The similarities are now indeniable !!!

I agree also with you that the Newman's machine is not a real motor
(mechanical engine), but it must be considered as a generator (electrical
generator).

Best regards,

Jean-Louis Naudin (France)
Email: JNaudin509@aol.cm
Main web site : http://members.aol.com/jnaudin509/index.htm

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Nov 18 10:57:53 1998
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To: JNaudin509@aol.com
From: josephnewman@earthlink.net (Evan Soule)
Subject: Re: Newman machine test pics and MPEGs Online !
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>On 18/11/98 16:19:16 Paris, Madrid, harti@harti.com wrote :
>
>> Also just powering the coil via a spark gap produced these
>>  negative current pulses, so the real Newman effect is NOT the motor,
>>  but a big coil running on a "tuned hissing sound" spark gap !
>>  This is related to the work of Correa and Tchernetskij,
>>  who have claimed, that there glow discharge can also be overunity.
>
>Hi Stefan,
>
>I am glad that you have observed and measured the SAME BACK CURRENT spikes
>waves shape that  I have noticed on my own Newman's machine. This now confirms
>that this effect is reproducible !!...
>
>You may see the spikes signals comparison (your signal and mine) at :
>
>http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jlnaudin/html/NMac1118.htm
>
>The similarities are now indeniable !!!
>
>I agree also with you that the Newman's machine is not a real motor
>(mechanical engine), but it must be considered as a generator (electrical
>generator).
>
>Best regards,
>
>Jean-Louis Naudin (France)
>Email: JNaudin509@aol.cm
>Main web site : http://members.aol.com/jnaudin509/index.htm

Dear Jean-Louis,

Thanks for your confirmation of results!

Actually, Joseph Newman has referred to his energy machine as a
"Motor/Generator".  And depending upon its design, it can be constructed to
primarily function in Generator-Mode, or primarily function in Motor-Mode.

Sincerely,

Evan Soule'

EvanSoule@josephnewman.com
www.josephnewman.com


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Nov 18 13:39:18 1998
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu>
Subject: hydrogen oxygen questions (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 14:57:40 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l@eskimo.com>, John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu>
Subject: hydrogen oxygen questions



	Dear Vo.,

	To all:

	What is the best commercial or experimental efficiency on water 
electrolysis?   What would be considered a significant upgrade or goal?

			J


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Nov 18 14:08:04 1998
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Subject: electrostatic
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	Dear fre and Vo.,

	I have developed a simple electric current method.  It uses a 
very high impedance, over 1 tera ohm front end... with a bias current in 
the 50 fA range.  It can be configured to;

	a] linear out
	b] square out .. to compensate for square field fall off for non 
contact field measure
	c] modified log compression ~ 20 plus or minus over 100,000:1
	d] more complex and expensive, variable K square through 5th root

	Can be single ended, gradiometric or differential ... with [a] 
through [d] applied to output.   Battery, about 7 mA drain from 9 volt.

	Any interest?  Off line, please.

	Other instrumentation as well.

			JHS 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Nov 18 15:27:50 1998
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Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 00:42:32 +0100
From: Stefan Hartmann <harti@harti.com>
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Organization: Hartmann Multimedia Service
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To: Newman-L Mailing List <newman-l@emachine.com>,
        freenrg-l <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>,
        Jean Louis Naudin <jnaudin509@aol.com>,
        dave dameron <ddameron@earthlink.net>, Tim Vaughan <tv@juno.com>,
        Dieter Bauer <bauer_d@FHI-Berlin.MPG.DE>,
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Subject: http://www.overunity.com/newman2/  updated !
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Hi,

I finally also uploaded the HTML page for the files
with my comments.
Please have a look again at the latest Newman machine test results at:

http://www.overunity.com/newman2/

Thanks !

Regards, Stefan.

--
Hartmann Multimedia Service,  Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
Tel: ++ 49 30-345 00 497  FAX: ++ 49 30-345 00 498
email: harti@harti.com  Web site: http://www.harti.com
http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB !

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Nov 18 15:42:05 1998
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Message-ID: <36537694.8E5DCF6@sunherald.infi.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 17:38:28 -0800
From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk@sunherald.infi.net>
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All:

I have set up a web page and discussion group devoted to FTL and FTL
related research. The web page is at:
http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Thinktank/8709/index.htm

Membership is open to anyone.

Kyle R. Mcallister

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Nov 18 17:44:55 1998
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Message-Id: <199811190144.PAA02824@mail.pixi.com>
From: "Friendship House" <friends@pixi.com>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Diode Array
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 15:44:55 -1000
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Hello All - I am new: 

I hold US patent 3,890,161, now public domain for a chip which directly
converts heat of
any entropy grade directly into electrical power.

 The concept is to have a vast number of nanometer scale diodes in uniform
alignment
parallel   rectify the internal thermal electromagnetic hiss of diodes and
aggregate their
output.

A professional lab measured an output of somewhat more than 1/2 kTB, the
scientific
threshold of feasibility, from a commercial chip not specifically designed
to be
practical and requiring a spot of conductive paste.

This should be independently investigated and the results reported.

I anticapate 100 watts/sq.cm.performance levels based on nanofabricating
100
billion diodes/sq.cm.obtained with 34 nm rhombic tiles and assuming that
the
diodes are 50% efficient.

I expect that this invention will escape obscurity and become widely
available and usefull quickly. 

I would like the developers to follow a synergetic, open,
global, scientific, internet age model rather than the intellectual
property patent and copyright model. 

The demonstration prototypes were 2T6 gallium arsenide substrate, 5,600
2.3um gold anode plugs in glass,diode arrays fabricated at the University
of Virginia,Charlottsville. Dr.Thomas W.Crowe dept. head. He was not
investigating this use the last time I checked. Ken Zelund will have any
orders 
filled and shipped. I am independent of these people.
 Experimenters have a choice of mounting.Their diode arrays
do not have an electricly conductive layer above the anode plugs because
most
users connect to individual diodes. These chips are 10 mil wide squares.
A~2 mil border isolates the edge. Negative several tens of millivolts 
under load 
should be observed at this anode buss. Max output should be at 1/2 the open
circuit voltage. These chips cost $250 each for individuals.Other chip
types are available.The chips were immersed in pure vegetable oil to assure
temperature uniformity.
 

If you would like more information, I would be happy to provide more
details. 

Thank you,
Charles M. Brown, friends@pixi.com, fax 808-821-4483, P.O. Box 780, Kapaa,
HI
96746.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Nov 19 00:13:46 1998
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Message-ID: <3653B893.6338ACC5@telusplanet.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 00:20:03 -0600
From: "Don J. S. Adams" <donadams@telusplanet.net>
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test
-- 
We must accept the truth, 
even if it changes our 
point of view. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Don J. S. Adams
Managing Consultant
Microsoft
Main Campus, Bldg 1
Redmond, WA
USA

425-882-3431	USA
403-998-4066	Canada

http://www.intergate.bc.ca/business/rave

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Nov 19 14:55:09 1998
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From: pgb@padrak.com (Patrick Bailey)
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To: <Undisclosed.Recipients@skylink.skylink.net>
From: "Gary Vesperman" <vman@skylink.net>
Subject: Do high-density charge clusters power Newman machine?
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 22:42:53 -0800
X-Rcpt-To: pgb@padrak.com

Joe Newman's agent, Evan Soule', sent me this message today (November 18,
1998).


Stefan Hartman in Germany has just posted some interesting results
following his experiments with the Newman Energy Machine.

These results can be found at:

http://www.overunity.com/newman2/

Best regards,

Evan Soule'
NEWMAN ENERGY TECHNOLOGIES CORP.
EvanSoule@josephnewman.com
www.josephnewman.com

(End of Evan's message.)


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Nov 19 15:17:09 1998
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From: Richard Austin <richarda@icx.net>
Subject: Re: electrostatic
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"I have developed a simple electric current method." to do what???
What is the purpose?


>	Dear fre and Vo.,
>
>	I have developed a simple electric current method.  It uses a 
>very high impedance, over 1 tera ohm front end... with a bias current in 
>the 50 fA range.  It can be configured to;
>
>	a] linear out
>	b] square out .. to compensate for square field fall off for non 
>contact field measure
>	c] modified log compression ~ 20 plus or minus over 100,000:1
>	d] more complex and expensive, variable K square through 5th root
>
>	Can be single ended, gradiometric or differential ... with [a] 
>through [d] applied to output.   Battery, about 7 mA drain from 9 volt.
>
>	Any interest?  Off line, please.
>
>	Other instrumentation as well.
>
>			JHS 


Richard Austin  --  email: richarda@icx.net  --  radio: KG7SU
Institute for Planetary Renewal http://user.icx.net/~richarda
(newly updated web site)


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Nov 19 17:52:58 1998
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	Sorry.

	I thought it was clear.  It is to measure current or charge, a 
reasonably well performing impedance converter... not FE, but a tool to 
measure with.

On Thu, 19 Nov 1998, Richard Austin wrote:

> "I have developed a simple electric current method." to do what???
> What is the purpose?
> 
> 
> >	Dear fre and Vo.,
> >
> >	I have developed a simple electric current method.  It uses a 
> >very high impedance, over 1 tera ohm front end... with a bias current in 
> >the 50 fA range.  It can be configured to;
> >
> >	a] linear out
> >	b] square out .. to compensate for square field fall off for non 
> >contact field measure
> >	c] modified log compression ~ 20 plus or minus over 100,000:1
> >	d] more complex and expensive, variable K square through 5th root
> >
> >	Can be single ended, gradiometric or differential ... with [a] 
> >through [d] applied to output.   Battery, about 7 mA drain from 9 volt.
> >
> >	Any interest?  Off line, please.
> >
> >	Other instrumentation as well.
> >
> >			JHS 
> 
> 
> Richard Austin  --  email: richarda@icx.net  --  radio: KG7SU
> Institute for Planetary Renewal http://user.icx.net/~richarda
> (newly updated web site)
> 
> 
> 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Nov 19 21:36:11 1998
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From: mbgupta@julian.uwo.ca
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Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 00:31:33 -0500
To: Stefan Hartmann <harti@harti.com>, leoguitar@vossnet.de,
        Newman-L Mailing List <newman-l@emachine.com>,
        freenrg-l <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>,
        Evan Soule <josephnewman@earthlink.net>,
        Jean Louis Naudin <jnaudin509@aol.com>,
        "W.D. Bauer" <WDBAUER@vossnet.de>,
        Dieter Bauer <bauer_d@FHI-Berlin.MPG.DE>,
        dave dameron <ddameron@earthlink.net>, Tim Vaughan <tv@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Newman machine test pics and MPEGs Online !
In-Reply-To: <3652E87C.37B14B46@harti.com>
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Also have a look at the end of this file.


http://www.keelynet.com/energy/pearson.txt

Chris Gupta

At 04:32 PM 11/18/98 +0100, Stefan Hartmann wrote:
>Hi All,
>
>I have now uploaded my recent test results
>from my Newman machine to my server at:
>
>http://www.overunity.com/newman2
>
>
>There are a few pics and MPEG movies.
>
>The scope pics show the input current into the coil during operation
>of my Newman machine.
>Note, that the center line on the scope
>is the ground position and that all current spikes go downward
>and all normal input current goes upward.
>
>The input current was sampled via a 10 Ohm shunt, so
>1 div= 50 mA and the timebase was set to 5.33 msec /div.
>
>Note, that the negative cuurrent spikes always
>occured, when there was a spark at the commutator.
>
>Without a spark, it did not occur !
>
>So I think it is related to this hissing sound spark
>at the commutator.
>
>Also just powering the coil via a spark gap produced these
>negative current pulses, so the real Newman effect is NOT the motor,
>but a big coil running on a "tuned hissing sound" spark gap !
>This is related to the work of Correa and Tchernetskij,
>who have claimed, that there glow discharge can also be overunity.
>
>Regards, Stefan.
>
>--
>Hartmann Multimedia Service,  Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
>Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
>Tel: ++ 49 30-345 00 497  FAX: ++ 49 30-345 00 498
>email: harti@harti.com  Web site: http://www.harti.com
>http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB !
> 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Nov 20 04:04:30 1998
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From: JNaudin509@aol.com
Message-ID: <2385ed37.36555a9f@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 07:03:43 EST
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Subject: First Overunity Results ? with my Newman's Machine V2.0
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Dear All,

FIRST OVERUNITY RESULTS ? ( Mechnical Output Power > AVG Electrical Input
Power )

Today (11-20-98), I have reconducted new measurements about the mechanical
efficiency of my Newman's Energy machine v2.0. I have used a new digital
oscilloscope (Tektronix THS720P ), with this instrument, I have been able to
measure in real time and accurately the electrical power input, in spite of
the strong and short spikes of back current. 
The mechanical power power ouput has been measured with the Prony Brake
method.

All informations and results can be found at :
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jlnaudin/html/nwmechts.htm

Best Regards,

Jean-Louis Naudin
Email: JNaudin509@aol.com
Main Web site: http://members.aol.com/jnaudin509/index.htm

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Nov 20 07:25:27 1998
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 10:00:58 -0500
Subject: idea
Message-ID: <19981120.100107.135.1.dave.tingley@juno.com>
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I have been thinking (obsessing maybe?) about tapping the rotating
magnetic force inside a capacitor after reading the message forwarded by
Jerry Decker about the guy who claimed he had a device that he charged up
for 10 seconds then extracted 60 cycle AC at up to 50 amps forever by
creating some sort of imbalance. It was speculated that he was somehow
charging a capacitor and then extracting power from the static field. 

It occured to me yesterday that it doesn't have to be a static field.
What if you charged up 4 capacitors instead of one and then hooked them
up "scalar wave battery charger" style, alternating two in parallel with
two in series?  This would create the rotating magnetic fields inside the
capacitors which would reverse with each charge-discharge cycle. A coil
placed between the plates of each cap would theoretically then be able to
produce AC as the magnetic fields rotate through it.

Is there someone out there who could set this up and test it?


Dave
====================================
dave.tingley@juno.com 
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Nov 20 12:25:57 1998
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From: Jerry Wayne Decker <jwdatwork@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: idea
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Hi Dave!

On checking the guy out we found many errors. 

He at first said he used an inverter, then later retracted that.  

His power claims were always estimates, not based on actual measured
loads.  

He claimed he burned up his first unit by connecting it to the earth.  

He claimed he had built many Tesla coils, the best at age 12 which put
out 15 foot lightning bolts.  

He claimed his power 'estimates' were derived from an experiment using
 two 22 gauge stranded wire alligator clips from Radio Shack,
connecting the power unit to a tin water bucket (ungrounded) filled
with water.  He claimed the water began to boil, the bucket turned red
and the water vaporized within a short period.  

Even he was not able to duplicate his original power unit that burned
up.  

No one in our group of  4 builders was able to duplicate even his
remotest claim. 

We found the idea interesting, that a coil placed between two charged
plates would produce power.

And even more bizarre was the idea that energy as in POWER (Watts)
does not actually manifest in the wires until those wires were outside
the capacitor plate area.  

As if this energy was either translated from some scalar form or
manifested from a downshift in frequency or energy level of the
aether/zpe.

Once again, we saw that one of the most certain tests for an
electrical  free energy system does not involve any kind of measuring
device, but simple calorimetry where the load consists of a heating
element and the heat produced is measured as a proof of power.

It also brings up the critique of reporting on EVERY spook claim that
comes down the pike or keep quiet about it and wait to see if it pans
out, then report it.  

The second option opens up the possibility of suppression since only a
very few would know and could tracked more easily than a large number,
so I'll stick with the open reporting and EXPECT them to flake out but
always hopeful that one day, we will have a report that is truthful
and without error.


---David l Tingley  wrote:
>
> I have been thinking (obsessing maybe?) about tapping the rotating
> magnetic force inside a capacitor after reading the message
forwarded by
> Jerry Decker about the guy who claimed he had a device that he
charged up
> for 10 seconds then extracted 60 cycle AC at up to 50 amps forever by
> creating some sort of imbalance. It was speculated that he was somehow
> charging a capacitor and then extracting power from the static field. 
> 
> It occured to me yesterday that it doesn't have to be a static field.
> What if you charged up 4 capacitors instead of one and then hooked
them
> up "scalar wave battery charger" style, alternating two in parallel
with
> two in series?  This would create the rotating magnetic fields
inside the
> capacitors which would reverse with each charge-discharge cycle. A
coil
> placed between the plates of each cap would theoretically then be
able to
> produce AC as the magnetic fields rotate through it.
> 
> Is there someone out there who could set this up and test it?
> 
> 
> Dave
> ====================================
> dave.tingley@juno.com 

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Nov 20 17:34:06 1998
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Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 02:46:34 +0100
From: Stefan Hartmann <harti@harti.com>
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Organization: Hartmann Multimedia Service
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CC: sergio@glasnet.ru, tim.vaughan@ccc-infonet.edu,
        Wolf-Dietrich Bauer <WDBAUER@vossnet.de>, fepps@halcyon.com,
        Stefan Hartmann <leoguitar@vossnet.de>, tv@juno.com,
        ddameron@earthlink.net, mrand@iols.net, Djsquires@aol.com,
        vramos@ctv.es, n5qxd@stic.net, srae@mlb.planet.gen.nz,
        freenrg-l <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>,
        Newman-L Mailing List <newman-l@emachine.com>,
        Evan Soule <josephnewman@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?JL=B4s?= First Overunity Results ?! My measurements 
	today..
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JNaudin509@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Dear All,
> 
> FIRST OVERUNITY RESULTS ? ( Mechnical Output Power > AVG Electrical Input
> Power )
.snip-...

> 
> All informations and results can be found at :
> http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jlnaudin/html/nwmechts.htm
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Jean-Louis Naudin
>
Hi JL.

big congratulations !

You deserve the fame ! :)

Well, I just came back from the university after running 11
hours of tests on my 2 Newman coils... Uff..

But now I know a lot more now again... :)


1. Well, Tim Vaughan was right, when he told about Leone Dragone´s
experiment with the coil and the spark gap and the bulb in series.

I have been lightning it up today  too ! :)

I had a 25 Watts 220 Volts bulb in series with my 16.7 KOhm coil
and about 600 Volts of DC supply.
It lit up about 1/4 brightness, when I had the spark gap tuned
to the hissing sound .
There was then a lot of RF on the lines !
This RF heats up the indescandent bulb wire.
But my current meter showed about 10 mA average input power.
So about 6 Watts of RF power could be the brightness
of the bulb ! 
The current is not flowing inside the DC coil resistance,
cause there is a 2.85 nanoFarad capacitance parallel to the coil
via the coil capacitance !!

That is the real trick ! When I used an external 1 uF cap
parallel to the coil, I got a brighter lightning of the bulb
and now I had sawtooth waveramps across the 1 uF cap.
The spark gap in this case works as a negative resistance
and is just charging and discharging the coil capacitance !

This is like an oscillator and thus the coil and the spark gap
can freely run and transfer the supply power as RF into the bulb
wire. I guess with this experiment there is no overunity.
This was just an effect of the internal coil capacitance
and the spark gap building a RF oscillator !
The inductance and the DC ohmic coil resistance do not work
in this mode, so there is not much power lost there
in ohmic heating , I guess...

There were no negative current spikes with these
experiments ! Too bad !
So always positive values of RF current flow
inside the wires, so the average input current was about 10 mA.
This circuit is just consuming energy ! No OU here !



2. I measured today exactly what capacitance my 2 coils
had and their inductance and their resonance frequency.

The bigger coil in the MPEG movies at
www.overunity.com/newman2
MPEG movies has these values:

168 Henries
2.85 nanoFarad
230 Hz resonance frequency
16.7 KOhm ohmic resistance.


My smaller diameter (~5cm diameter) coil has:

410 Henry
160 picoFarad
620 Hz resonance frequency
20.7 KOhm ohmic resistance


Now the interesting effects:
a) running a hissing sound spark gap current
on them works best with 2 graphite electrodes.
Then you can tune the spark gap with a screw
on which you have glued the graphite brushes.
I used pencil graphite. Then by using about 0.1
mm distance I had the hissing sound RF spark
gap burning white flame.
In this mode as described above, I could
glow the bulb in series with the coil, but in this
mode there are just no negative current spikes !

You can only get the negative current spikes as
seen on:
www.overunity.com/newman2
when you "brush off" the 2 brushes manually
and the spark flame is cut off like a "jacob´s ladder"
spark effect !
That means, the interruption of the spark flame at about 1.5 mm
to 2 mm brush distance generates the negative current spikes !

THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT !

It means you have to design the commutator right to get
these "pull apart" "jacobs ladder arcs", so that these
most important negative current spikes appear.
It also makes a "zipping" sound, as if you light  a match !

It also depends how hard and fast you manually pull the brushes
or contacts away from each other. 
IF THERE IS NO SPARK, IT DOES NOT WORK !
The better the spark, the better the negative current spike and the
bigger the area underneath it. The louder the zipping the
better the negative current spike.

Now comes the most important thing:

This negative current spike seems to be related to internal
inductance-capacitance charge-discharge cycle between
the coil capacitance and the coil inductance and powered
by the spark disrupption.
This negative current spike also seems to accelerate or brake
the permanent magnet rotor inside the coil depending
in which magnetic polarisation area the magnet is located.

I tested via my hand the torque generated when this negative
current spike hits. It seems it also produces a magnetic field
inside the coil , so it affects the rotor magnet !
Now it is very important to know, that it can also effect negatively
the rotation ! As the negative current spike generates a negative
H magnet field inside the coil, it is a reversed field to the driving
field !
With the driving field about 5 msec before was just a positive input
current was flowing !

Now here comes the trick:

As it takes about 5 msecs before the negative current spike occures
inside the coil
after the cuttoff of the input current due to the brush being in the
gap,
the magnet must now be in the next rotation position a few degrees
further rotated, when the negative current spikes occures !
At this time, the magnet rotor is in exact this angle position, where
the negative current spike ACCELERATES the rotor , because it is already
in a location, where this polarity of  the current now helps the
rotation
(about 250 to 270 degrees position) (when at 180 degrees you reverse the
coil polarity) !!!

Thus it is probably why Jean Louis and Joe Newman had measured bigger
than 100 % mechanical efficiency.

This only works with an optimized commutator angle versus rotor position
setup , so that these negative current spikes hit at the right moments,
so the rotor magnet can be accelerated and will produce Overunity
torque,
so the mechanical efficiency can be bigger than 100 % !

With electronic commutator switching it just does not work.
It seems to be related to the "fast zipping jacob´s ladder sound" at the
commutator
brushes, which might be a special corona discharge chemical to
electrical energy
conversion, which powers the Newman motor to OU performance !

3. We still tried another circuit today with a rectifier diode and
another cap
at the output to see the electrical efficiency, but we have to redo this
experiment in
a different setup on Monday, cause it was not conclusive and there was
no real
spark with it....
As I would say: In the spark exists the truth !:)

4. I was probably wrong, when I stated, that alone with a coil
one could get OU.
You probably still need the rotating magnet to generate
mechanical OU efficiency...


Next results coming up on next Monday evening.

Happy pondering weekend to all Newman motor fans ! :)

Best regards, Stefan.


--
Hartmann Multimedia Service,  Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
Tel: ++ 49 30-345 00 497  FAX: ++ 49 30-345 00 498
email: harti@harti.com  Web site: http://www.harti.com
http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB !

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Nov 20 18:06:19 1998
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I have updated my page with my latest
info.

http://www.overunity.com/newman2

Best regards, Stefan.

--
Hartmann Multimedia Service,  Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
Tel: ++ 49 30-345 00 497  FAX: ++ 49 30-345 00 498
email: harti@harti.com  Web site: http://www.harti.com
http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB !

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Nov 20 18:06:36 1998
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Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 20:53:54 -0800
From: Bob Shannon <bshannon@tiac.net>
Organization: Fair at best
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References: <19981120183250.10264.rocketmail@send106.yahoomail.com>
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Jerry Wayne Decker wrote:
> 
> Hi Dave!
> 
> On checking the guy out we found many errors.

<snip>
 
> It also brings up the critique of reporting on EVERY spook claim that
> comes down the pike or keep quiet about it and wait to see if it pans
> out, then report it.

If everyone waits too see, it will never pan out.

Claims should be reported, but then evaluated in light of what little we
do know about physics today.  If a claim is in direct conflict with
well-known 
phenomena, then it should be rejected.

Credible claims should be investigated, while suspect claims should only
be
reported as suspect to try to reduce the all-too-common free energy
frauds.
Far too many alternative research investors have been, and will be
defrauded
by deceitful, and self-deceitful false claims.

The idea that an object placed between the plates of a charged capacitor
is
subjected to a rotating magnetic field is in direct conflict with what
we
know about the behavior of many electronic systems.  This claim can be
easily 
dismissed as fantasy.

As far as testing, you can easily buy three plate capacitors.  When
charged, 
no AC appears in the internal plate.

You can often find these three plate capacitors as AC filter caps on
small to
mid-sized switching power supplies, so salvaging them from electronic
scrap is
also quite easy.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Nov 20 18:13:06 1998
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From: Stefan Hartmann <harti@harti.com>
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Bob Shannon wrote:
> 
> Jerry Wayne Decker wrote:
> >
> > Hi Dave!
> >
> > On checking the guy out we found many errors.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> > It also brings up the critique of reporting on EVERY spook claim that
> > comes down the pike or keep quiet about it and wait to see if it pans
> > out, then report it.
> 
> If everyone waits too see, it will never pan out.
> 
> Claims should be reported, but then evaluated in light of what little we
> do know about physics today.  If a claim is in direct conflict with
> well-known
> phenomena, then it should be rejected.
> 
> Credible claims should be investigated, while suspect claims should only
> be
> reported as suspect to try to reduce the all-too-common free energy
> frauds.
> Far too many alternative research investors have been, and will be
> defrauded
> by deceitful, and self-deceitful false claims.
> 
> The idea that an object placed between the plates of a charged capacitor
> is
> subjected to a rotating magnetic field is in direct conflict with what
> we
> know about the behavior of many electronic systems.  This claim can be
> easily
> dismissed as fantasy.
> 
> As far as testing, you can easily buy three plate capacitors.  When
> charged,
> no AC appears in the internal plate.
> 
> You can often find these three plate capacitors as AC filter caps on
> small to
> mid-sized switching power supplies, so salvaging them from electronic
> scrap is
> also quite easy.


Hi Bob,

I guess, he meant something more like your overunity collider
circuit....
He spoke about 4 caps...
I did not understand exactly how he wanted to charge and discharge them
in what kind of order...

Hey, Dave, how do you want to do the toggling of the caps ??


Best regards, Stefan.


--
Hartmann Multimedia Service,  Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
Tel: ++ 49 30-345 00 497  FAX: ++ 49 30-345 00 498
email: harti@harti.com  Web site: http://www.harti.com
http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB !

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Nov 20 18:40:14 1998
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From: Bob Shannon <bshannon@tiac.net>
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Stefan Hartmann wrote:
> 
> Bob Shannon wrote:

<snip>

> > You can often find these three plate capacitors as AC filter caps on
> > small to
> > mid-sized switching power supplies, so salvaging them from electronic
> > scrap is
> > also quite easy.
> 
> Hi Bob,
> 
> I guess, he meant something more like your overunity collider
> circuit....
> He spoke about 4 caps...

Yes, I saw that.  But still, we do know that there are no rotating
magnetic 
fields between the plates of a charged capacitor!

So clearly there is a major problem with the original claim.

> I did not understand exactly how he wanted to charge and discharge them
> in what kind of order...
> 
> Hey, Dave, how do you want to do the toggling of the caps ??
> 
> Best regards, Stefan.

Why bother toggling the caps if the basic idea has a big problem?

Also, people have tried to build Brandt-Tesla Switch like designs (the
Pod-Mod, etc) before.  Where are they now?

Without a good reason why it should work in the first place, why chase
after a faulty idea?

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Nov 20 20:13:08 1998
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Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 22:49:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Idea
Message-ID: <19981120.224957.171.0.dave.tingley@juno.com>
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the information about the magnetic fields in a cap that I was referring
to comes from this page at "The Gravity Gate" web site:
http://www.starwon.com.au/~rayd/capflo.htm It states that there is a
magnetic field loop in the cap while it was being charged which reverses
direction when discharged, but none when it was in stasis. I was only
thinking of the switching as a method to induce a constant
charge/discharge cycle. I suppose applying any AC source to a single cap
would enable one to test for its effect on a coil between the plates. 

Dave 

On Fri, 20 Nov 1998 21:27:40 -0800 Bob Shannon <bshannon@tiac.net>
writes:
>Stefan Hartmann wrote:
>> 
>> Bob Shannon wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> > You can often find these three plate capacitors as AC filter caps 
>on
>> > small to
>> > mid-sized switching power supplies, so salvaging them from 
>electronic
>> > scrap is
>> > also quite easy.
>> 
>> Hi Bob,
>> 
>> I guess, he meant something more like your overunity collider
>> circuit....
>> He spoke about 4 caps...
>
>Yes, I saw that.  But still, we do know that there are no rotating
>magnetic 
>fields between the plates of a charged capacitor!
>
>So clearly there is a major problem with the original claim.
>
>> I did not understand exactly how he wanted to charge and discharge 
>them
>> in what kind of order...
>> 
>> Hey, Dave, how do you want to do the toggling of the caps ??
>> 
>> Best regards, Stefan.
>
>Why bother toggling the caps if the basic idea has a big problem?
>
>Also, people have tried to build Brandt-Tesla Switch like designs 
>(the
>Pod-Mod, etc) before.  Where are they now?
>
>Without a good reason why it should work in the first place, why 
>chase
>after a faulty idea?
>
>

===================================================
dave.tingley@juno.com
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ranch/3992/dt.html
The heart of the wise inclines to the right, the heart of the fool
inclines to the left.
Ecclesiastes 10:2

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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Nov 20 21:31:08 1998
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Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 00:23:02 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: abstract, please.... First Overunity Results ? with my Newman's , Machine V2.0
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	Dear Jean,

	I do not have www access.  Can you please give us a brief of the results?

		J

On Fri, 20 Nov 1998 JNaudin509@aol.com wrote:

> Dear All,
> 
> FIRST OVERUNITY RESULTS ? ( Mechnical Output Power > AVG Electrical Input
> Power )
> 
> Today (11-20-98), I have reconducted new measurements about the mechanical
> efficiency of my Newman's Energy machine v2.0. I have used a new digital
> oscilloscope (Tektronix THS720P ), with this instrument, I have been able to
> measure in real time and accurately the electrical power input, in spite of
> the strong and short spikes of back current. 
> The mechanical power power ouput has been measured with the Prony Brake
> method.
> 
> All informations and results can be found at :
> http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jlnaudin/html/nwmechts.htm
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Jean-Louis Naudin
> Email: JNaudin509@aol.com
> Main Web site: http://members.aol.com/jnaudin509/index.htm
> 
> 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Nov 20 22:02:48 1998
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Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 00:54:46 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l@eskimo.com>, free E <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Whistlers
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	Dear Vo. and fre,

	[1]  Class

	There is a class of signals that goes by various names, including 
but not limited to;



	a] sferics
	b] natural radio
	c] fair weather currents
	d] ELF, VLF, LF

	In this class can be found 'whistlers'... other names include, but 
are not limited to;

	a] sweepers
	b] gurglers
	c] 'dawn chorus'

	[2]  TYPE, or nature

	As far as the TYPE of signal, this is varied and includes, but is 
not limited to;

	a] EM, or electromagnetic
	b] magnetic
	c] electric, or charge ... sometimes called electric field
	
	In general the guideline is all signals and types which fall 
within the audio frequency, or AF, range.  Some conduct work slightly above 
and below AF.
	For simplicity I will call them 'radio' ... although they can and 
do fall in the TYPE b and c categories.

	Basically most humans have no direct sensory connection to types 
[a] [b] and [c] ... but these signals can and do exist and are studied.  

	[3] Weather based  Broadband

	There is a very large body of work which encompasses AF, and the above 
and below AF and very broad band emissions associated with weather 
activity, notably lightning discharge.  Study and detection of the 
approach of storms and location of storm activity falls, often, in this type
of work.

	[4]  Earth and Space

	Activity detectable on Earth and based on effects from earth, 
from space, from the sun and sun activity and other complex effects
including but not limited to magnetic and particulate "storms", solar 
storms, magnetosphere, Aurora effects and so on are also studied and can 
be detected with instruments sensitive in the [2] TYPE section [above].
	
	NOTE:  NONE of the above is simplistic and it is strongly 
suggested you read books on the subject  [go to the library]


	Beyond this 'sort of common' work there are investigators who 
look to the unseen and unheard and detect and study the bandwidths 
described abbove, but carried as other forms from [2] TYPE .. these 
include, but are not limited to;

	a] optical emissions in many wavelengths
	b] mechanical or acoustic in and on land, sea and air
	c] transduction by living organisms.

	There are some seismic and astronomical investigators in this area.


	The point of this brief discussion is to try to point out a hug 
body of work that is little known by many, barely known in www land, and 
which can be found... not in data bases, but by reading and investigative 
research.  It is a facinating field I have been involved with for over 20 
years.  It requires open minds, thinking, ability to understand signals 
and signal acquisition.  There is a large amount of partial and mis 
information in the area.  It is well worth your time if you want to 'see 
and hear' the 'invisible' .... but requires dedication.

			JHS

	PS:  As may be seen 'whistlers' are a tiny... but very cool ... 
piece of the work.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Nov 20 22:25:52 1998
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From: John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu>
To: leoguitar@vossnet.de
cc: JNaudin509@aol.com, sergio@glasnet.ru, tim.vaughan@ccc-infonet.edu,
        Wolf-Dietrich Bauer <WDBAUER@vossnet.de>, fepps@halcyon.com,
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Subject: Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?JL=B4s?= First Overunity Results ?! My measurements today..
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	Simple test:

	a] use standard battery... like a car or motorcycle battery to 
power a system... is you need AC, such as 220 VAC lines power, then use 
the battery with UPS inverter.

	b] measure DC amps and volts from the battery.... to drive your 
lamp and use the light meter in a good camera to measure the optical 
output of the lamp.

	c] now put your spark gap and so on in the path, between the UPS, 
battery and lamp .... measure Amps and volts from battery being used and 
use the light meter ..

	Let us knw amps and volts ... for 'x' lamp brilliance ... 
straight from battery and with the spark gap stuff

	d] do the same with motor tests.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Nov 21 00:13:38 1998
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com
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On 21/11/98 06:31:51 Paris, Madrid, herman@antioch-college.edu wrote :
> 
>  	Dear Jean,
>  
>  	I do not have www access.  Can you please give us a brief of the results?
>  
>  		J
>  

Dear John,

You will find the text file of my web page bellow,

Best Regards,

Jean-Louis Naudin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

11-20-98 - FIRST OVERUNITY RESULTS ( Mechnical Output Power > AVG Electrical
Input Power )

Today (11-20-98), I have reconducted new measurements about the mechanical
efficiency of my Newman's Energy machine v2.0. I have used a new digital
oscilloscope (Tektronix THS720P ), with this instrument, I have been able to
measure in real time and accurately the electrical power input, in spite of
the strong and short spikes of back current. 
The mechanical power power ouput has been measured with the Prony Brake
method.

I have used only an lenght of 0.25m for the Prony brake lever and conducted 5
measurements. Between each measurements, I have checked that the balance has
been previously set to zero.

I have used a Textronix THS720P Isolated Channel Scope/DMM (tm). It combines a
full-featured 100Mhz bandwith and 500 MS/s sample rate digital realtime scope.
This scope includes features specialy for electric/power electronics
measurements which allow testing and measuring the electrical power in
realtime with statistics and math calculations.

My first "historical" test was conducted with the Prony Brake set to 6
grammes:

The scope picture shows the voltage accross the power supply ( blue curve ),
the current input ( green curve ), and the real time calculated power input (
red curve ). The prony brake level lenght was 0.25 meter and the weight
measured was 6 grammes. The rotation speed was 275 RPM ( period=218 ms). 
The average power input measured with the scope was 317.1 mW. The mechanical
power output measured on the shaft was 424.1 mW.

This give a mechanical efficiency of 134%

Encouraged with these interesting results, I have decided to conduct others
measurements.
So, I have conducted 3 others tests :

1) Prony Brake setup: L = 0.25m, Weight = 4 grammes,
Electrical Average Power Input = 120.9mW
Mechanical Power Output = 305.1mW at 297RPM
Efficiency = 252%

2) Prony Brake setup: L = 0.25m, Weight = 8 grammes,
Electrical Average Power input = 369.1mW
Mechanical Power Output = 522.35mW at 254RPM
Efficiency = 142%

3) Prony Brake setup: L = 0.25m, Weight = 10 grammes,
Electrical Average Power Input = 612.5mW
Mechanical Power Output = 642.06mW at 254RPM
Efficiency = 105%

Without mechanical load on the shaft, the electrical Power Input was about
205.2 mW at 333RPM
The Joules losses in the coil are included in the Electrical Power Input....

Tests are not yet finished, the way is now open.....

All informations and results can be found at :
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jlnaudin/html/nwmechts.htm

Jean-Louis Naudin ( 11-20-98 )
Email: JNaudin509@aol.com
Main Web site: http://members.aol.com/jnaudin509/index.htm

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Nov 21 08:09:33 1998
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Subject: Re: Idea
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Bob Shannon wrote:

 Hi Bob,
<snip>

>Yes, I saw that.  But still, we do know that there are no rotating
>magnetic
>fields between the plates of a charged capacitor!


What did you think of Charles Yosts' experiments in the ESJ Issue #18 '96
article "Electrostatic Force Experiments" that seems to indicate a changing
magnetic intensity between the cicular magnetic plates?

Quote: 'Jefimenko points out, in accordance with Maxwell's theory, that the
magnet field is circular and perpendicular to the longitudinal direction of
the E-field oscillation.'

Regards,   Michael Randall


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Nov 21 08:26:35 1998
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Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 11:33:04 -0500
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Keith Nagel <knagel@cnct.com>
Subject: Re: abstract, please.... First Overunity Results ? with my
  Newman's , Machine...
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Hi.

A few questions J...

How did you measure current in the circuit? Voltage? How was the
prony brake calibrated? I notice that to get full cycles of
the waveform your timebase is quite long, pushing the high frequency
components into the nyquist range. How does this affect the measurement?

K.

At 03:11 AM 11/21/98 EST, you wrote:
>11-20-98 - FIRST OVERUNITY RESULTS ( Mechnical Output Power > AVG Electrical
>Input Power )


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Nov 21 09:22:18 1998
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Message-ID: <3656F8B4.9B0FC7F7@harti.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 18:30:28 +0100
From: Stefan Hartmann <harti@harti.com>
Reply-To: leoguitar@vossnet.de
Organization: Hartmann Multimedia Service
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To: freenrg-l <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>,
        Newman-L Mailing List <newman-l@emachine.com>,
        Adolf Schneider <adolf.schneider@datacomm.ch>,
        Jean Louis Naudin <jnaudin509@aol.com>
Subject: Gravity field converter does not work !
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Hi,

I wanted finally to report,
that the claimed gravity field to mechanical converter at:

www.overunity.com/gb

DOES NOT WORK !

The 80 years old inventor called Grueter-Blasius from Munich,Germany
has probably lied to us many times, when he claimed,
that it has been seen by many individuals.

I tried to contact people, but all only told me,
that they did not see it running contineously
and they did not see more than we...
The  inventor  seems to live in a "wishfull thinking" world.

After letting the machine being repaired, the latest
tests showed, that only 8 Kg weight were measured
at the Akkomodators, which normal theory predicts...

So another wrong claim busted...

Sorry, but I also believed the inventor, when he
claimed, he had already measured 20 KGs of weight
in earlier time...

It seems he lives in a disillusion...

I will now change my WEB page, so this device will
not longer be featured...

I will now concentrate myself again onto the Newman
machine development.


Best regards, Stefan.

--
Hartmann Multimedia Service,  Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
Tel: ++ 49 30-345 00 497  FAX: ++ 49 30-345 00 498
email: harti@harti.com  Web site: http://www.harti.com
http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB !


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Nov 21 09:55:48 1998
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From: JNaudin509@aol.com
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Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 12:53:19 EST
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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Subject: Re: abstract, please.... First Overunity Results ? with my Newman's , Machine...
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On 21/11/98 17:27:11 Paris, Madrid, knagel@cnct.com wrote :

> How did you measure current in the circuit? Voltage? 
The current/Voltage was measured by the THS720P Scope and the power calculated
in realtime. This scope have special specs for this. See also :
Technical Infos about the THS720P :
http://www.tek.com/Measurement/Products/catalog/ths720p/
Technical THS720P specs :
http://www.tek.com/Measurement/Products/catalog/ths720p/specs.html

How was the
>  prony brake calibrated? 
My elecronic balance was calibrated to zero gramme before each measurement. So
the weight of the lever apparatus was canceled.

I notice that to get full cycles of
>  the waveform your timebase is quite long, pushing the high frequency
>  components into the nyquist range. How does this affect the measurement?
>  
Yes, for a better calculation of the scope and thus an accurate measurement,
it was necessary to use a max datas collection.

Regards,

Jean-Louis Naudin

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Nov 21 10:13:12 1998
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Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 13:19:34 -0500
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Keith Nagel <knagel@cnct.com>
Subject: Re: abstract, please.... First Overunity Results ? with my
  Newman's , Machine...
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At 12:53 PM 11/21/98 EST, you wrote:
>The current/Voltage was measured by the THS720P Scope and the power
calculated
>in realtime. This scope have special specs for this. See also :
>Technical Infos about the THS720P :
>http://www.tek.com/Measurement/Products/catalog/ths720p/
>Technical THS720P specs :
>http://www.tek.com/Measurement/Products/catalog/ths720p/specs.html

Yup, I gathered that from the site. What I mean is, is there a
circuit diagram of the motor and power supply showing where
V and I were measured? Are you using a current sensor, or looking
at voltage across a resistor? 

>
>How was the
>>  prony brake calibrated? 
>My elecronic balance was calibrated to zero gramme before each
measurement. So
>the weight of the lever apparatus was canceled.

I guess I should be more clear here as well. The brake ought to be
calibrated with a motor of some known efficiency, and the friction
screw adjusted for identical friction. 

>I notice that to get full cycles of
>>  the waveform your timebase is quite long, pushing the high frequency
>>  components into the nyquist range. How does this affect the measurement?
>>  
>Yes, for a better calculation of the scope and thus an accurate measurement,
>it was necessary to use a max datas collection.

Yes, I see you have collected a number of samples. Do the high
frequency components stay the same per cycle, or do they vary?

Sorry for all the questions; I do appreciate and respect the
time you spend on these projects. 

K.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Nov 21 10:47:06 1998
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From: "Fred Epps" <fepps@halcyon.com>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Whistlers
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 08:23:23 -0800
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Hi John,

I am pretty familiar with the biological and psychological effects of
the natural ELF freqs from 60 Hz and below (basically including the
geomagnetic pulsations of less than 1 Hz to about 10 Hz, and the
Schumann resonances of 7 to 33 Hz).
It is known for instance that the worldwide average power spectrum of
the schumann resonances is almost exactly the same as the average power
spectrum of the human EEG.
Do you know of any studies you can point me to that have been done on
the biological or psychological effects (if any) of the other categories
of higher frequency signals?
Since humans have evolved in the presence of all these various signals I
am wondering if there are specific effects from each of the different
types.
For instance, as a random example, what would happen to a person who was
sitting in a room where a recording of whistlers was being played back
through an antenna?
I seem to remember something about brain waves in the 300 Hz range but I
can't place the ref...
>
> Basically most humans have no direct sensory connection to types
>[a] [b] and [c] ... but these signals can and do exist and are studied.

Fred


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Nov 21 13:34:33 1998
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From: JNaudin509@aol.com
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Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 16:33:45 EST
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On 21/11/98 19:14:22 Paris, Madrid, knagel@cnct.com wrote :
> What I mean is, is there a
>  circuit diagram of the motor and power supply showing where
>  V and I were measured? Are you using a current sensor, or looking
>  at voltage across a resistor? 

The Voltage has been measured accross the input of the machine and the current
with accross 1 ohms ceramic resistor in series, the scope is able to handle a
hall probe or a simple resistor for measuring the current, this is a simple
software setting.

>  >How was the
>  >>  prony brake calibrated? 
>  I guess I should be more clear here as well. The brake ought to be
>  calibrated with a motor of some known efficiency, and the friction
>  screw adjusted for identical friction. 

The output mechanical power from the Newman's machine was measured  by
calculating the frictionnal torque load on the motor shaft and multiplying
this by the rotational speed of the motor (measured with the scope). The
mechanical brake used in this test was the simplest and most straight forward
technique to measure and vary shaft power, which is very simply defined as
torque times rotational speed (Power=Torque * Rotational_speed).

Regards,

Jean-Louis Naudin

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Nov 21 15:20:02 1998
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Whistlers
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Hi Fred!

Good to see you back.

Freenrg-l has, for the moment at least, a high signal to noise ratio (this
message not withstanding). I hope you stick around. I'm looking forward to
reading your knowledgeable and insightful posts here once again.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Nov 21 15:51:48 1998
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From: Keith Nagel <knagel@cnct.com>
Subject: Re: Whistlers
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Hello Fred.

Reminds me of the process by which EMP is generated by high altitude
atomic explosions. Seems the prompt gammas come down from the near
vacuum of space to the upper atmosphere, displacing charge as they
dissipate in a shell above the earth. One might think that as the
current is always along the path of a vector normal to the spherical
shell that no radiation would be produced, but actually the magnetic
field of the earth causes this current to take a helical shape.
The result is a hugh helical antenna, its beam maximum along the
aforementioned vector. 

Oddly, though ruinous to electrical equiptment, big slabs of
dielectric (like us) seem unaffected. Post if you know otherwise :^)

K.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Nov 21 16:07:54 1998
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X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 16:07:49 -0800 (PST)
From: William Beaty <billb@eskimo.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: idea
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On Fri, 20 Nov 1998, Bob Shannon wrote:

> Claims should be reported, but then evaluated in light of what little we
> do know about physics today.  If a claim is in direct conflict with
> well-known 
> phenomena, then it should be rejected.

It's always part of a spectrum: on one end we have people who are
convinced that the earth is flat, and that satellites are a hoaxed part of
a vast conspiracy.  They are clearly wrong.  On the other end of the
spectrum, we have physicists who ridicule any Cold Fusion claim on the
grounds that fusion physics and phenomena is very well known, and there is
simply no room in it for low-velocity fusion in metal crystals.  The world
thinks they are right, but they might be mistaken. 

If a claim goes against well-known phenomena, then it should not be
rejected.  However, it should be regarded as suspect, and the truth to the
claim can only be verified by independant replication of the claimed
phenomena.  The real world is the final arbiter, not us.  For example,
when a REAL cold fusion device is pitted against thousands of smirking
physicists, the physicists lose, and their obvious and well-known ideas
are shown to have a massive flaw. 

> Credible claims should be investigated, while suspect claims should only
> be
> reported as suspect to try to reduce the all-too-common free energy
> frauds.

But who judges whether a claim is credible?  The whole point of this forum
is to look at claims which any reputable scientist would dismiss as
unworthy of investigation. 

But I see what you are getting at.  "IDEA TRIAGE."  Which ideas are too
far gone to save, and which deserve our time and effort.  We cannot
replicate every crazy thing which comes down the pike, if we did, we would
stop looking for needles in the haystack, and instead spend all our time
arguing with people who are convince that the special and important piece
of hay they've discovered, is actually a needle.

> Far too many alternative research investors have been, and will be
> defrauded by deceitful, and self-deceitful false claims. 

It's the self-deceit which causes nearly all the problems.

> The idea that an object placed between the plates of a charged capacitor
> is subjected to a rotating magnetic field is in direct conflict with
> what we know about the behavior of many electronic systems.  This claim
> can be easily dismissed as fantasy. 

If the inventor at one time had an actual working device, and he WRONGLY
EXPLAINED that it used rotating fields in a capacitor, and if we therefor
dismissed his "crazy" claims, then we would be wrong. 

Assigning pet theories to real inexplicable phenomena is a continuing
problem in hobbyist research. If somebody stumbles across something real
and valuable during their research, and then explains it with a theory
which proves to be totally flawed, then the original discovery will be
rejected.  Therefor it is very important that we communicate our anomalous
observations as if they are separate discoveries.  When something works,
we should show others how to do it.  We should not load our discoveries up
with our own personal theoretical interpretations.  If our theory is
wrong, it should not stand in the way of investigation of the strange
phenomeon we have discovered.

> As far as testing, you can easily buy three plate capacitors.  When
> charged, 
> no AC appears in the internal plate.

We'd have to know just what the original experimenter ACTUALLY DID. 
Second hand information not so useful (third and forth hand rumors are so
distorted as to be totally useless.)  What we really need is the inventor
to explain exactly what he did, in his own words, and in great detail. 


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb@eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Nov 21 20:26:49 1998
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Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 23:23:46 -0500
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, KeelyNet@DallasTexas.net
Subject: DePalma's N-Machine
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I have been reading about DePalma's work and am very keen in building the
N-Machine. I would like to know if anyone has any experience with this work
and if its work pursuing. To me it appears that this maybe a doable project
but I would like to get any input I can before starting.

Thanks

Chris Gupta

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Nov 21 21:28:45 1998
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From: "mrand@access" <mrand@iols.net>
To: <leoguitar@vossnet.de>, <JNaudin509@aol.com>
Cc: <sergio@glasnet.ru>, <tim.vaughan@ccc-infonet.edu>,
        "Wolf-Dietrich Bauer" <WDBAUER@vossnet.de>, <fepps@halcyon.com>,
        "Stefan Hartmann" <leoguitar@vossnet.de>, <tv@juno.com>,
        <ddameron@earthlink.net>, <Djsquires@aol.com>, <vramos@ctv.es>,
        <n5qxd@stic.net>, <srae@mlb.planet.gen.nz>,
        "freenrg-l" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>,
        "Newman-L Mailing List" <newman-l@emachine.com>,
        "Evan Soule" <josephnewman@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: JL´s First Overunity Results ?! My measurements today..
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 21:22:22 -0800
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Hi Jean-Louis and Stefan,

>big congratulations !
>
>You deserve the fame ! :)


Yes and the same here!

Any idea's on making the unit self-powering?  Maybe charging dead batteries
like Newmans' units?

Good work!

Regards,  Michael Randall



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Nov 21 23:28:44 1998
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Subject: Re: Whistlers
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Hi Rick!

>Good to see you back.

Thanks, Rick.
>
>Freenrg-l has, for the moment at least, a high signal to noise ratio
(this
>message not withstanding).

I looked at the archives. You have a strong stomach to stick it out.
Well, things go in cycles.

 I hope you stick around. I'm looking forward to
>reading your knowledgeable and insightful posts here once again.

Thanks again, I hope I have something to say that is worthy of your high
praise.

At the moment, nothing comes at all :-/

Fred



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Nov 21 23:28:45 1998
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Subject: Re: Whistlers
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Hi Keith!
>
>Reminds me of the process by which EMP is generated by high altitude
>atomic explosions. Seems the prompt gammas come down from the near
>vacuum of space to the upper atmosphere, displacing charge as they
>dissipate in a shell above the earth. One might think that as the
>current is always along the path of a vector normal to the spherical
>shell that no radiation would be produced, but actually the magnetic
>field of the earth causes this current to take a helical shape.
>The result is a hugh helical antenna, its beam maximum along the
>aforementioned vector.

Interesting titbit. I don't have anything to add to that, its all new to
me, but I can note a few things about the schumann resonances from my
reading. It is generally thought that they are the result of lightning
bolts "ringing" the earth/atmosphere capacitor (the earth having a
diameter that basically sets the wavelength) but some things I read
indicated that scientists that at least half of the energy input into
these resonances was due to solar EM oscillating the Earth's
magnetosphere, flapping it like a sheet in the wind.  Thus these ELF
frequencies we experience every day, and which the pineal gland is very
sensitive to, are directly related to solar EM activity.  It is known
that suicide rates go up at the beginning of magnetic storms and this
may be part of the chain of causation.
>
>Oddly, though ruinous to electrical equiptment, big slabs of
>dielectric (like us) seem unaffected. Post if you know otherwise :^)

Well if you are speaking of EMP I don't know much about it, though I can
ask someone who does.
The Schumann resonances despite the immensely long wavlength are very
bioactive.  There is good evidence to indicate that the daily
sleep/waking cycle is more entrained to changes in ELF waves when night
falls, than to the actual reduction in light.  The pineal gland is a
sensitive magnetosensor (nobody knows how it could be AFAIK) and
melatonin production is closely related to ELF.  This may be how cancer
is caused by EM, not by a direct effect of EM on body tissues but due to
disruption of  melatonin production in the pineal, melatonin being an
anti-cancer agent among other things.  About one third of the US
population has sleep disorders.  Wonder how much of that is due to 60 Hz
EM?

Fred

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Nov 21 23:34:03 1998
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Subject: Re: Idea, plasmas, and the Newman machine
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 23:21:20 -0800
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Hi Micheal!
>
>>Yes, I saw that.  But still, we do know that there are no rotating
>>magnetic
>>fields between the plates of a charged capacitor!
>
>
>What did you think of Charles Yosts' experiments in the ESJ Issue #18
'96
>article "Electrostatic Force Experiments" that seems to indicate a
changing
>magnetic intensity between the cicular magnetic plates?
>
>Quote: 'Jefimenko points out, in accordance with Maxwell's theory, that
the
>magnet field is circular and perpendicular to the longitudinal
direction of
>the E-field oscillation.'

There is an interesting controversy about this topic that does relate to
OU devices. There are two schools of thought about whether a slowly
changing E-field between cap plates generates a B field or not.  I don't
follow all the math, but some EM theorists think that the Maxwell
equations indicate that there is no B field, and some think there is.
Experiments have been done to measure this and they appear to show a
field, though it is close to the limits of experimental error. This is
seen as a corroboration of the Lorentz electrodynamic equation which
balances forces between parts of a circuit by supposing a displacement
current in the gap of the capacitor.  The Lorentz equation is the only
accepted physical principle that violates Newton's law of action and
reaction, so many researchers have suspected it, and as it turns out it
is definitely disproved by experiment.  The forces along a wire, in
railguns, in water explosions, in plasmas-- none correspond to those
predicted by this equation.
They do correspond to the Ampere equation which is an "action at a
distance principle" that abides by Newton's third law.  This Ampere
equation not only does not have a displacement current, it does not have
any fields at all, only forces!

So you have a peculiar situation: the Lorentz equation definitely is
wrong. It predicts a displacement current. One would think this means
there isn't a displacement current, and its accompanying B field, but
there DOES appear to be a magnetic field. At the same time the Ampere
equation is the only one that works in all situations with the possible
exception of retarded potentials. The two equations contradict each
other and each only works part of the time.  The whole basis of
electrodynamics is in question.

In addition, if the Ampere equation-- which predicts most results
accurately-- is accepted, then the law of conservation of energy is
violated. The reason is that, as Pappas shows in some papers about spark
discharges in relation to the Dragone device, the Ampere law predicts
that when a spark or electron beam reach a velocity of 70% of the speed
of light the magnetic forces become stronger than the electric forces
and the beam focusses itself, bringing the electrons closer together, in
effect operating against entropy and violating the supposed law of
conservation of energy.  The energy of the beam increases without any
input. This of course does not happen in the Lorentz formulation. But
does it happen in reality?

I suggest it does, in the following devices:
1)  The Newman machine, which in fact is overunity, but has nothing to
do with Newman's theories but is a large induction coil allowing for
spark acceleration past the 70% limit.
2)  The Chernetski experiment as described by Frolov, where shunting an
arc into an induction coil circuit reduces the apparent load.
3)  The Dragone device as described by Tim Vaughn, also using a large
coil.
4)  The anomalous reaction forces described by many early plasma
researchers.
5)  Possibly the Correa device as well.

These devices all demonstrate that the Ampere force law is indeed the
correct one for forces operating in space as well as in metallic
currents, and that the law allows for the creation of new energy within
physical reality by overcoming the disproportion between magnetic and
electric forces.

An interesting consequence of operating the arc or electron beam in air
is that some air ions are ionized, and this may allow for the critical
velocity to be reduced by a considerable factor, as described by Harold
Aspden: massive ions can allow for anomalous reaction forces on a
cathode plate because both inertial forces and electromagnetic forces
must be balanced in any interchange between different portions of the
arc or beam. This allows a transfer of momentum of the particles toward
the cathode. Thus part of the beam may accelerate beyond the desired
threshold because of the presence of air. This may account for the
hissing heard in the succesful recent experiments. There are also early
reports by Roentgen and others of anomalous energy releases in Nitrogen
and other gases that may be related to this effect.

Fred






From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 22 07:36:16 1998
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--

On Sat, 21 Nov 1998 22:31:00   Fred Epps wrote:
>Hi Keith!
>>
>>Reminds me of the process.....       fred 
..>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
...
...
...fred...
...
... picked up on your
    mention of possible
    connection per 60hz:
    sleep disorders...
...
... on 10 scale, my
    interest = 9+ ...
...
... ?can you amplify
    on 60hz-sleep
    disorder subject
    matter? ...
...
... if off-subject,
    private post AoK...
...
... thanks...
...
... bob ...
...
... <macelvain@hotmail.com>

 

    >


Get your FREE Email at http://mailcity.lycos.com
Get your PERSONALIZED START PAGE at http://personal.lycos.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 22 09:09:03 1998
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Keith Nagel <knagel@cnct.com>
Subject: Re: Whistlers
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At 10:31 PM 11/21/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Interesting titbit. I don't have anything to add to that, its all new to
>me, but I can note a few things about the schumann resonances from my
>reading. It is generally thought that they are the result of lightning
>bolts "ringing" the earth/atmosphere capacitor (the earth having a
>diameter that basically sets the wavelength) but some things I read
>indicated that scientists that at least half of the energy input into
>these resonances was due to solar EM oscillating the Earth's
>magnetosphere, flapping it like a sheet in the wind.  Thus these ELF
>frequencies we experience every day, and which the pineal gland is very
>sensitive to, are directly related to solar EM activity.  It is known
>that suicide rates go up at the beginning of magnetic storms and this
>may be part of the chain of causation.

As Tesla pointed out, the schumann type resonances are caused by
the finite size and shape of the earth and ionosphere. If I remember
rightly, the whistlers are charged particles flowing back and forth
between the magnetic poles of the planet, executing a helical
motion due to the field thus emitting radiation. Hence my
analogy to EMP. I seem to remember a good general article on
this (whistlers) in SA, check their index for the topic. The
solar wind is indeed responsible for this.

It has often been pointed out that the schumann resonances
are in the range of human brain activity; in fact the primary
7.5hz one is right on the alpha state. Remember the flap
about the "woodpecker" during the 80's? Well, if there are
effects they must be subtle; perhaps exposure causes humans
to vote republican :^) Seriously, I've seen a slew of papers
trying to tie a definite measureable effect to this sort
of thing, but no smoking gun. About 8 years back I wanted
to measure the schumann frequencies, so I built a special
type of superregenerative receiver and set out to measure.
First thing I noticed, was that the ambient 60hz was SEVERAL
ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE larger... I eventually left the lab
and went out to a state park; at it's center activity was
low enough to begin considering the 7hz stuff. 

>>
>>Oddly, though ruinous to electrical equiptment, big slabs of
>>dielectric (like us) seem unaffected. Post if you know otherwise :^)
>
>Well if you are speaking of EMP I don't know much about it, though I can
>ask someone who does.

Please do. I for one have seen very little in the way of material
on the biological effects of EMP. 

K.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 22 09:59:11 1998
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From: Keith Nagel <knagel@cnct.com>
Subject: Re: abstract, please.... First Overunity Results ? with my
  Newman's , Machine...
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Hi J.

At 04:33 PM 11/21/98 EST, you wrote:
>The Voltage has been measured accross the input of the machine and the
current
>with accross 1 ohms ceramic resistor in series, the scope is able to handle a
>hall probe or a simple resistor for measuring the current, this is a simple
>software setting.

Ok, so looking at the traces, I see a mostly constant voltage with
larges surges of current; this suggests that the power supply
must have large buffering capacitors (or is in some manner regulated
to a constant voltage). So, as this seems not to affect the operation
of the machine; might I suggest a more accurate measurement technique?
If you put a large capacitor in parallel with the machine and the
power supply, you can move the current sensing resistor to the
input side of the capactor. Now, if the cap is large enough the
current measurement will approach DC. You will no longer be pushing
the nyquist limit of the sample. The cap losses should be small
if a good Hi-Q unit is choosen.

>The output mechanical power from the Newman's machine was measured  by
>calculating the frictionnal torque load on the motor shaft and multiplying
>this by the rotational speed of the motor (measured with the scope). The
>mechanical brake used in this test was the simplest and most straight forward
>technique to measure and vary shaft power, which is very simply defined as
>torque times rotational speed (Power=Torque * Rotational_speed).

I appreciate what your doing here; for myself I always feel
hesitant relying on calculation in this manner. However, if
you feel confident in this measurement it sounds like a simple
matter to obtain a standard electric motor with >50% efficiency
and "close the loop". Of course, that last step always seems
to slow folks down :^)

By the way; I'd appreciate it if Evan Soule would stop
crossposting this discussion to Vortcore; it belongs here.
If it continues I'll simply start posting to J directly.

K.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 22 10:21:33 1998
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To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Whistlers
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Hi Keith!

>
>As Tesla pointed out, the schumann type resonances are caused by
>the finite size and shape of the earth and ionosphere.

Yes, that is true, the frequencies are detemined by the size of the
earth, but what I was mentioning that hasn't been discussed much is that
a lot of the energy that is determining the amplitude of the resonances
is coming not from lightning but from solar winds "flapping" the
magnetophere, and this vibration pumping energy into the ionosphere. I
haven't seen this mentioned anywhere but in the scholarly book "The
Schumann Resonance" (forgot the author's name).

If I remember
>rightly, the whistlers are charged particles flowing back and forth
>between the magnetic poles of the planet, executing a helical
>motion due to the field thus emitting radiation. Hence my
>analogy to EMP. I seem to remember a good general article on
>this (whistlers) in SA, check their index for the topic. The
>solar wind is indeed responsible for this.

Yes.
>
>It has often been pointed out that the schumann resonances
>are in the range of human brain activity; in fact the primary
>7.5hz one is right on the alpha state.

Yes, you can overlay a chart of the resonances and a chart of the
average EEG power spectrum and they line up pretty close.

 Remember the flap
>about the "woodpecker" during the 80's? Well, if there are
>effects they must be subtle; perhaps exposure causes humans
>to vote republican :^) Seriously, I've seen a slew of papers
>trying to tie a definite measureable effect to this sort
>of thing, but no smoking gun.

It was a false alarm as so many of these things are. Instigated by a few
well known anti-soviet paranoids.

 About 8 years back I wanted
>to measure the schumann frequencies, so I built a special
>type of superregenerative receiver

Sutton Black hole antenna?

and set out to measure.
>First thing I noticed, was that the ambient 60hz was SEVERAL
>ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE larger...

Yes, there is a natural 60 Hz resonance, which is why Tesla picked it
for his AC line freq, I think. Unfortunately, now the whole atmospheric
electrical circuit is being driven by this freq with unknown
consequences.

 I eventually left the lab
>and went out to a state park; at it's center activity was
>low enough to begin considering the 7hz stuff.

Yes some friends of mine were looking for ways to get those, and it
turned out to be near impossible in urban areas, unless you wanted to do
some heavy signal processing maybe.  It MIGHT be possible with two
antennas 10-20 yards apart, the schumann signals will still be in phase
but most artificial sources will not be.  Big artificial sources include
trains, interestingly, at around 16 Hz. Of course the 60 Hz can be notch
filtered out, they are not the main problem, since the more interesting
bioactive freqs are lower.

Let me know if you figure out a way to get those in urban areas. It is a
very tricky problem from what I've seen, but potentially very rewarding.
>>
>>Well if you are speaking of EMP I don't know much about it, though I
can
>>ask someone who does.
>
>Please do. I for one have seen very little in the way of material
>on the biological effects of EMP.

Will do.

Fred


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 22 10:28:39 1998
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Subject: Re: Whistlers
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Hi Fred,

Check out the following patents

5480374

5562597

>Hi John,
>
>I am pretty familiar with the biological and psychological effects of
>the natural ELF freqs from 60 Hz and below (basically including the
>geomagnetic pulsations of less than 1 Hz to about 10 Hz, and the
>Schumann resonances of 7 to 33 Hz).
>It is known for instance that the worldwide average power spectrum of
>the schumann resonances is almost exactly the same as the average power
>spectrum of the human EEG.
>Do you know of any studies you can point me to that have been done on
>the biological or psychological effects (if any) of the other categories
>of higher frequency signals?
>Since humans have evolved in the presence of all these various signals I
>am wondering if there are specific effects from each of the different
>types.
>For instance, as a random example, what would happen to a person who was
>sitting in a room where a recording of whistlers was being played back
>through an antenna?
>I seem to remember something about brain waves in the 300 Hz range but I
>can't place the ref...
>>
>> Basically most humans have no direct sensory connection to types
>>[a] [b] and [c] ... but these signals can and do exist and are studied.
>
>Fred


Richard Austin  --  email: richarda@icx.net  --  radio: KG7SU
Institute for Planetary Renewal http://user.icx.net/~richarda
(newly updated web site)


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 22 10:42:52 1998
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From: Keith Nagel <knagel@cnct.com>
Subject: Re: Whistlers
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Hi.

At 10:14 AM 11/22/98 -0800, you wrote:
> About 8 years back I wanted
>>to measure the schumann frequencies, so I built a special
>>type of superregenerative receiver
>
>Sutton Black hole antenna?

Good call Fred. Yes, it was a superregenerative receiver built
with an opamp. Actually, what would have been better is to
use a simple oscillator tuned to 7.5hz; the broad range of
the op-amp made measurement more difficult. But this type
of receiver is absolutely fascinating to me; any word
on Sutton? Making an antenna active to increase its effective
cross section is an excellent trick, although the FCC frowns
on the commercial use of such receivers. 

K.



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 22 10:48:26 1998
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Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 13:57:56 -0600
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: josephnewman@earthlink.net (Evan Soule)
Subject: Re: abstract, please.... First Overunity Results ? with my	  Newman Machine...
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>Hi J.
>
>At 04:33 PM 11/21/98 EST, you wrote:
>>The Voltage has been measured accross the input of the machine and the
>current
>>with accross 1 ohms ceramic resistor in series, the scope is able to handle a
>>hall probe or a simple resistor for measuring the current, this is a simple
>>software setting.
>
>Ok, so looking at the traces, I see a mostly constant voltage with
>larges surges of current; this suggests that the power supply
>must have large buffering capacitors (or is in some manner regulated
>to a constant voltage). So, as this seems not to affect the operation
>of the machine; might I suggest a more accurate measurement technique?
>If you put a large capacitor in parallel with the machine and the
>power supply, you can move the current sensing resistor to the
>input side of the capactor. Now, if the cap is large enough the
>current measurement will approach DC. You will no longer be pushing
>the nyquist limit of the sample. The cap losses should be small
>if a good Hi-Q unit is choosen.
>
>>The output mechanical power from the Newman's machine was measured  by
>>calculating the frictionnal torque load on the motor shaft and multiplying
>>this by the rotational speed of the motor (measured with the scope). The
>>mechanical brake used in this test was the simplest and most straight forward
>>technique to measure and vary shaft power, which is very simply defined as
>>torque times rotational speed (Power=Torque * Rotational_speed).
>
>I appreciate what your doing here; for myself I always feel
>hesitant relying on calculation in this manner. However, if
>you feel confident in this measurement it sounds like a simple
>matter to obtain a standard electric motor with >50% efficiency
>and "close the loop". Of course, that last step always seems
>to slow folks down :^)
>
>By the way; I'd appreciate it if Evan Soule' would stop
>crossposting this discussion to Vortcore; it belongs here.
>If it continues I'll simply start posting to J directly.
>
>K.

Dear Keith,

Actually, I wasn't planning to cross-post additional discussion to Vortcor
since I assume that those Vortcor subscribers could access the discussion
on freenrg-l since they are now aware of it.  Per the list charter for
Vortcor, the experimental discussions/results are appropriate to that list
as well, and I wanted subscribers to that list to be aware of the
experiments conducted, should they wish to access the discussion on
freenrg-l.

Sincerely,

Evan Soule'



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 22 10:56:30 1998
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From: josephnewman@earthlink.net (Evan Soule)
Subject: Re: Idea, plasmas, and the Newman machine
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snip---
>I suggest it does, in the following devices:
>1)  The Newman machine, which in fact is overunity, but has nothing to
>do with Newman's theories but is a large induction coil allowing for
>spark acceleration past the 70% limit.
snip--
>
>Fred

Dear Fred,

Actually, Joseph Newman's energy machine has everything to do with his
Theory of the Gyroscopic Massergy.

Joseph Newman innovated his technology via the tried, true, and proven
epistemological road of science:  he FIRST sought to understand given
phenomena of nature and then, in the process, learned the mechanical
underpinings of a new, kinetic source --- i.e., the Gyroscopic Massergy ---
which THEN enabled him to deduce how to construct the hardware necessary to
properly harness such pre-existing natural phenomena.

As he has previously stated, he considers his Mechanical Unification of the
Fields via the Gyroscopic Massergy infinitely more important than a mere
physical embodiment of a given technological application.  Why?  Because
such an understanding gives us an important tool to unlock many more
"secrets of the universe".

Joseph Newman's Theory is consistent, comprehensive, and predictably
explains the observed phenomena --- all important characteristics of a true
and valid theory in keeping with the Scientific Method.

Yes, I like many others would also hope that a mathematical explanation
would accompany the mechanical model explanation --- and I think this will
happen in time.  But we must begin somewhere; and the history of science
has demonstrated that a "mechanical model" is a good starting point for a
new understanding of observed phenomena.

Best regards,

Evan Soule'


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 22 11:28:07 1998
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Subject: Re: Whistlers
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Hey Fred!~

>me, but I can note a few things about the schumann resonances from my
>reading. It is generally thought that they are the result of lightning
>bolts "ringing" the earth/atmosphere capacitor (the earth having a
>diameter that basically sets the wavelength) but some things I read
>indicated that scientists that at least half of the energy input into
>these resonances was due to solar EM oscillating the Earth's
>magnetosphere, flapping it like a sheet in the wind.  Thus these ELF
>frequencies we experience every day, and which the pineal gland is very
>sensitive to, are directly related to solar EM activity.

Can you provide more references?

>  It is known
>that suicide rates go up at the beginning of magnetic storms and this
>may be part of the chain of causation.

Who is it known by, I need references?  Very interesting but I would like to
actually read about the scientific studies that unearthed these
correlations.
Certain patterns can be traced throught our history, perhaps if we were to
map this to known electromagnetc cycles of our solar system?  All idle
speculation until we have references.


>>Oddly, though ruinous to electrical equiptment, big slabs of
>>dielectric (like us) seem unaffected. Post if you know otherwise :^)
>
>Well if you are speaking of EMP I don't know much about it, though I can
>ask someone who does.
>The Schumann resonances despite the immensely long wavlength are very
>bioactive.  There is good evidence to indicate that the daily

What evidence, who found it, where is it published, thanks.

>sleep/waking cycle is more entrained to changes in ELF waves when night
>falls, than to the actual reduction in light.  The pineal gland is a
>sensitive magnetosensor (nobody knows how it could be AFAIK) and
>melatonin production is closely related to ELF.  This may be how cancer
>is caused by EM, not by a direct effect of EM on body tissues but due to
>disruption of  melatonin production in the pineal, melatonin being an
>anti-cancer agent among other things.  About one third of the US
>population has sleep disorders.  Wonder how much of that is due to 60 Hz
>EM?


Good question?  If true we can open up whole new fields of medical science,
begin creating fields and frequencies that we work and play in to affect us,
and removing natural fields and frequencies that we have determined
detrimental.
However how does one block an 8hz frequency?

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 22 11:30:42 1998
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Subject: FREENRG-L  John Hutchison is now online!?
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Hey, since when does John Hutchison (of 'Hutchison effect' fame) have a
website?!   Guess I'm just otta the loop!   :)   
I've invited him to join or lurk on FREENRG-L.

Check it out:

  http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Thinktank/8863/index.html

He notes that he will be restarting his research in the near future.

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb@eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 22 12:40:19 1998
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From: William Beaty <billb@eskimo.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: N-machine musings
In-Reply-To: <199811220426.XAA02688@juliet.its.uwo.ca>
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On Sat, 21 Nov 1998 mbgupta@julian.uwo.ca wrote:

> I have been reading about DePalma's work and am very keen in building the
> N-Machine. I would like to know if anyone has any experience with this work
> and if its work pursuing. To me it appears that this maybe a doable project
> but I would like to get any input I can before starting.

Have any other freenrg-L people messed with rotary disk generators
recently?

Some of the weirdness associated with Hompolar Generators (HPGs, or
N-machines) was later found to have conventional explanations.  However,
I'm not at all convinced that they are obvious and boring, or that they
contain no secrets and no great discoveries.  

Get Valone's book "The Homopolar Handbook : A Definitive Guide to Faraday
Disk & N-Machine Technologies" (Amazon page:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0964107015/

I have a small page of links, diagrams, and musings on this topic (I've
done no serious experiments myself.)  See
http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/freenrg/n-mach.html

If you build any devices, go for the designs which employ liquid-metal
brush.  When compared to bulk metal, the sliding carbon blocks have huge
resistance, especially right at the contact surface.  Any O/U effects will
be eaten by the brushes.  Direct metal/metal contact eliminates this
problem.  Toxic mercury is unnecessary, use an indium-based solder with
low melting point (some of these solders will melt at 120F.) 

One thing that always fascinated me: the so-called "Q-machine", where the
permanent magnets of the N-machine are replaced with AC electromagnets.
This causes the huge output current of the rotating disk to be AC, which
means that it can be stepped up via a transformer and used to power
conventional equipment (such as motors.)  If overunity effects are hidden
in HPG devices, a transformer-equipped "Q-machine" with liquid metal
brushes MIGHT be the way to demonstrate this.

A second question which has never been answered as far as I know: does the
shape of the output circuit have any effect on the required drive torque?
If the N-machine's massive output circuit is built from radially
symmetrical metal shells rather than from bussbars, will this reduce the
mechanical back-action of the generator at all?  Will a cylindrical
n-machine take less work to rotate?  Yes, there might be no
interesting EM secrets in N-machines, and any new experiments might be a
waste of time.  But if a totally symmetrical n-machine was shown to have a
reduced mechanical analog of "back EMF", then this strongly suggests that
a SUPERCONDUCTING n-machine would be WAY overunity, and might easily be
coaxed into a runaway mode, similar to the claims re. the Searle disk.

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb@eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 22 14:02:30 1998
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Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 17:08:59 -0500
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From: "Dennis C. Lee" <atech@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: N-machine musings
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Hi;

At 12:40 PM 11/22/98 -0800, you wrote:
>re. the Searle disk.

Normally, potential and kinetic energy are inversely proportional. When one
goes up, the other goes down. If, however, one could make them directly
proportional, ie the faster it spins the greater the voltage produced, the
higher the voltage in turn causes greater rotation rate, an interesting
phenomenon results. This is the nature of these disk devices I believe.

Regards;
Dennis


Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 22 15:15:20 1998
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Hi Richard,

Thanks for the patent refs, they are very interesting.  The first one
appears to generate longitudinal waves, like in the Yost  "Wiggle Wand"
experiment, that is, they are not electroMAGNETIC strictly speaking. Of
course the frequency range is why you mentioned it, and that is also
unusual, since they clearly don't work by entrainment of the desired
Theta waves.
--unless there are HF brain waves-- I just read a report about two
telekinetic Japanese boys that emitted RF at 34.5 MHz and 21 MHz during
spoon-bending type experiments.
I guess there are semiconductor and liquid crystal elements in the body
that emit energies up into the THz, according to Frohlich et al. These
aren't associated with the brain in particular, but DNA and
intracellular membranes. I've never heard of any systematic studies of
whether the brain puts out HF brain waves.
I guess you could figure out the theoretical max BW of the synapses by
looking at the distance between the synapse and the neuron, but I've
never seen that information.
The second patent is even more interesting because it doesn't make any
sense, and
those are the best kind :-)
It resembles a healing device I channeled last year, based on aetheric
waves generated by quartz oscillators when they are running.  In that
gadget you drive the oscillator crystals off resonance so you can get
the healing freqs you want.  These crystals would be put at the chakra
points to do the healing. The aetheric longitudinal waves are like sound
but can travel through vacuum.
.
This patent is even more unconventional than that, since "in theory" you
would get very little excitation of the crystal by simply winding a coil
around it. There is no PZ excitation and no EM waves generated, as far
as I can see.  It is the kind of thing invented by someone who is
ignorant of how things are supposed to work. I bet it works really well
;-)
 I suspect that it is not really EM in the usual sense at all, but more
of these aetheric longitudinal waves. This same principle could be used
at any frequency to deliver healing energy.

Thanks again for the refs, they are great, I am going to see if I can
get ahold of this guy.

Fred

>
>Check out the following patents
>
>5480374
>
>5562597


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Hi Keith,
>
>Good call Fred. Yes, it was a superregenerative receiver built
>with an opamp. Actually, what would have been better is to
>use a simple oscillator tuned to 7.5hz; the broad range of
>the op-amp made measurement more difficult.

Yes, you definitely don't want the original Sutton design which is
supposed to be flat response all the way up.Of course the Schumann
resonances have peaks other than 7.5 but you could get an idea of the
total intensity from just the one. I guess you could use a modified
Sutton design with a notch filter for that.

But this type
>of receiver is absolutely fascinating to me; any word
>on Sutton?

No, maybe Bob Paddock will jump in here, he know a lot about it.

Making an antenna active to increase its effective
>cross section is an excellent trick, although the FCC frowns
>on the commercial use of such receivers.

And Sutton suggested that Tesla was running his car off atmospheric
power tapped this way. I doubt it, but I have made a collection of weird
gadgets that might have potential for that.  The Britten patent is very
interesting.  He put DC from a battery through his antenna and got
improved reception-- could be a near field electrostatic effect, sort of
like increasing the cross section of the antenna with a static field
instead of the Sutton idea.  In addition there is a strange phone hacker
box called the Mauve Box that I think might have some appication here.
Do a search for Mauve Box and you will find it.

Fred


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From: "Fred Epps" <fepps@halcyon.com>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Idea, plasmas, and the Newman machine
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 14:40:55 -0800
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Hi Evan,

>>I suggest it does, in the following devices:
>>1)  The Newman machine, which in fact is overunity, but has nothing to
>>do with Newman's theories but is a large induction coil allowing for
>>spark acceleration past the 70% limit.
>snip--

>Actually, Joseph Newman's energy machine has everything to do with his
>Theory of the Gyroscopic Massergy.
>
>Joseph Newman innovated his technology via the tried, true, and proven
>epistemological road of science:  he FIRST sought to understand given
>phenomena of nature and then, in the process, learned the mechanical
>underpinings of a new, kinetic source --- i.e., the Gyroscopic
Massergy ---
>which THEN enabled him to deduce how to construct the hardware
necessary to
>properly harness such pre-existing natural phenomena.

Great if you can do it, and maybe he did, but I am engaged in an
EMPIRICAL study of various machines that have certain attributes in
common. All of the aformentioned devices use induction coils and have
sparks, that seems like rather more than a coincidence.
I bet you dollars to doughnuts that if Jean-louis were to replace his
mechanical commutator with a nonsparking switch that his OU results
would disappear in a flash.. Or a spark in this case :-)
Regardless of the mass of the coil.

As he says on his site, at

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jlnaudin/html/NMac0629.htm

The secret of a good tuning reside in the brushes slope above the
surface of the broken segments. The brushes must FLY ABOVE the surface
of these contacts, like the R/W heads of a hard disk drive used in
computers. The lower gap must be adjusted for obtaining some very weak
sparks at the running voltage and the slope of the brush must be very
gradual. So, by this way, you build up an gradual spark gap Vs the angle
of rotation. The positive current will be considerably reduced and the
negative current flow will be amplified.....

What do you think, Jean-louis?

Fred


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 22 15:15:29 1998
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From: "Fred Epps" <fepps@halcyon.com>
To: "Bill Wallace" <btech@surfsouth.com>, <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Whistlers
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Hi Bill,
>
>>me, but I can note a few things about the schumann resonances from my
>>reading. It is generally thought that they are the result of lightning
>>bolts "ringing" the earth/atmosphere capacitor (the earth having a
>>diameter that basically sets the wavelength) but some things I read
>>indicated that scientists that at least half of the energy input into
>>these resonances was due to solar EM oscillating the Earth's
>>magnetosphere, flapping it like a sheet in the wind.  Thus these ELF
>>frequencies we experience every day, and which the pineal gland is
very
>>sensitive to, are directly related to solar EM activity.
>
>Can you provide more references?

Yes, this was from a book called "Schumann Resonances" or maybe "THE
Schumann Resonances" that I got out of the library.  I've forgotten the
authors. It should be available in a college library. Its out of print
now, but it is the standard reference work on the subject.
>
>>  It is known
>>that suicide rates go up at the beginning of magnetic storms and this
>>may be part of the chain of causation.
>
>Who is it known by, I need references?  Very interesting but I would
like to
>actually read about the scientific studies that unearthed these
>correlations.

To quote from a web site that referrs to this research:

Change of geomagnetic activity can influence among the others: the
mental activity, psychic state and health . Major changes of geomagnetic
activity is related to solar activity which long-term variations is held
in 11 year - solar cycles. The diurnal variations in geomagnetic
activity called geomagnetic storms influence psychological state.
According to Persinger's research during the geomagnetic storms the rate
of sudden death increases. He proved that these storms could cause some
percent sudden death.. Stonel from Israel analyzed during the
consecutive months of the year , the relationship between geomagnetic
activity changing and suicides rates or myocardial infarcts.

This is not a quote from the original docs, but it gives the flavor of
the results. Again, I am not actively studying this field right now so I
don't have my hands on the original papers.
I understand that this doesn't prove anything, but I beleive that at
least four studies ahve been done that indicate a connection here.  I
will look around for more details.


>Certain patterns can be traced throught our history, perhaps if we were
to
>map this to known electromagnetc cycles of our solar system?  All idle
>speculation until we have references.

"The Geomagnetic field and Life" by A.N. Dubrov gives numerous
references that show that periods in human cultural change are
correlated with shifts in the earth's magnetic field. Good luck on
finding it, though.
I strongly recommmend that you find the biggest college library you can
find to dig into this stuff.  The net will not do the job.  It is out
there.  I will help where I can.
>
>
>>>Oddly, though ruinous to electrical equiptment, big slabs of
>>>dielectric (like us) seem unaffected. Post if you know otherwise :^)
>>
>>Well if you are speaking of EMP I don't know much about it, though I
can
>>ask someone who does.
>>The Schumann resonances despite the immensely long wavlength are very
>>bioactive.  There is good evidence to indicate that the daily
>
>What evidence, who found it, where is it published, thanks.

TONS of information available there.  Look in any recent book on
circadian cycles, melatonin metabolism, pineal function, or EM effects
on life.
It has been established since the 70's that a 10 Hz magnetic or electric
pulse will stabilize the length of the diurnal cycle of people in sealed
rooms with no access to sunlight. If the pulse is not present the cycle
gets more and more out of whack, if it is present the cycle stays at
about 24 hours.
>
Wonder how much of that is due to 60 Hz
>>EM?
>
>
>Good question?  If true we can open up whole new fields of medical
science,
>begin creating fields and frequencies that we work and play in to
affect us,
>and removing natural fields and frequencies that we have determined
>detrimental.

This is already being done both in the conventional medical world and in
"underground medicine".
This is a well established field.

>However how does one block an 8hz frequency?

You wouldn't want to, it is benficial.  The ones that are a problem are
the 60 Hz, but if the 8-10 Hz are reinforced then the 60 Hz becomes less
of a problem.

Sorry I can't give you more detailed refs, I will be able to look them
up after a while, the problem is that I read so much that sources get
lost.  I went through a period about a year ago when I was wading in
this stuff and it sunk in, but the specific refs are lost in some cases.

Fred


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 22 15:30:23 1998
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Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 18:37:53 -0500
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From: "Dennis C. Lee" <atech@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Idea, plasmas, and the Newman machine
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Hi;

At 02:40 PM 11/22/98 -0800, you wrote:

(snip)

>The secret of a good tuning reside in the brushes slope 

Poggendorf brush theory?

Regards;
Dennis


Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 22 16:04:15 1998
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Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 19:13:43 -0600
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From: josephnewman@earthlink.net (Evan Soule)
Subject: Re: Idea, plasmas, and the Newman machine
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>Hi Evan,
>
>>>I suggest it does, in the following devices:
>>>1)  The Newman machine, which in fact is overunity, but has nothing to
>>>do with Newman's theories but is a large induction coil allowing for
>>>spark acceleration past the 70% limit.
>>snip--
>
>>Actually, Joseph Newman's energy machine has everything to do with his
>>Theory of the Gyroscopic Massergy.
>>
>>Joseph Newman innovated his technology via the tried, true, and proven
>>epistemological road of science:  he FIRST sought to understand given
>>phenomena of nature and then, in the process, learned the mechanical
>>underpinings of a new, kinetic source --- i.e., the Gyroscopic
>Massergy ---
>>which THEN enabled him to deduce how to construct the hardware
>necessary to
>>properly harness such pre-existing natural phenomena.
>
>Great if you can do it, and maybe he did, but I am engaged in an
>EMPIRICAL study of various machines that have certain attributes in
>common. All of the aformentioned devices use induction coils and have
>sparks, that seems like rather more than a coincidence.
>I bet you dollars to doughnuts that if Jean-louis were to replace his
>mechanical commutator with a nonsparking switch that his OU results
>would disappear in a flash.. Or a spark in this case :-)
>Regardless of the mass of the coil.
>
>As he says on his site, at
>
>http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jlnaudin/html/NMac0629.htm
>
>The secret of a good tuning reside in the brushes slope above the
>surface of the broken segments. The brushes must FLY ABOVE the surface
>of these contacts, like the R/W heads of a hard disk drive used in
>computers. The lower gap must be adjusted for obtaining some very weak
>sparks at the running voltage and the slope of the brush must be very
>gradual. So, by this way, you build up an gradual spark gap Vs the angle
>of rotation. The positive current will be considerably reduced and the
>negative current flow will be amplified.....
>
>What do you think, Jean-louis?
>
>Fred

Dear Fred,

Thanks for your comments.  I'm not _negating_ the importance of the spark
-- but then, since the precise nature of the sparking relative to the
efficiency of the system may be view as (to some degree) an "unknown" ---
to definitively say that the sparking does or does not play an important
role would be scientifically inappropriate.  And I would agree with your
view that any such "coincidences" as you have described are not to be taken
lightly.

It may be that -- to the extent that we can precisely understand the nature
of the 'sparking' as it relates to the system's efficiency -- it may (or
may not) be duplicatable by other means, e.g., an electronic switching
system.

Hypothesis (on my part/& I'm not speaking for Joseph Newman in this regard):

The extent/intensity/degree/confirguration of the spark may be an _effect_
of the degree to which the gyroscopic massergies have been efficiently
utilized via the collapsing field effect.  If this is the case, then I
believe we are looking at 'different sides of the same coin.'

Regards,

Evan Soule'


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 22 18:57:31 1998
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Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 20:53:48 -0800
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All:

Anyone here know where I can get a 10 turn 10megohm potentiometer?

Thanks,
Kyle R. Mcallister

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 22 19:19:50 1998
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Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:
> 
> All:
> 
> Anyone here know where I can get a 10 turn 10megohm potentiometer?
> 
> Thanks,
> Kyle R. Mcallister
Try "Halted" in Sunnyvale, Ca. or "Haltek" in Mountian View Ca.
or "Digikey" (online)

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 22 20:06:57 1998
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From: "Fred Epps" <fepps@halcyon.com>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Idea, plasmas, and the Newman machine
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 19:52:10 -0800
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Hi Evan!

>
>It may be that -- to the extent that we can precisely understand the
nature
>of the 'sparking' as it relates to the system's efficiency -- it may
(or
>may not) be duplicatable by other means, e.g., an electronic switching
>system.

I'll wait and see what Jean-louis says about this since I think he may
have tried several different switching systems.

Fred


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 22 20:36:03 1998
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Hi Fred and all,
At 10:14 AM 11/22/98 -0800, you wrote:

>Yes, there is a natural 60 Hz resonance, which is why Tesla picked it
>for his AC line freq, I think. Unfortunately, now the whole atmospheric
>electrical circuit is being driven by this freq with unknown
>consequences.
>
I don't think Tesla picked 60 Hz, but wanted 25Hz for his induction motors.
Others wanted 133Hz for smaller transformers an aluminum production. Later
50 and 60 Hz came. Is there something special about 60, base 60 numbering
systens are as old as minutes and seconds...
-Dave

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 22 20:36:03 1998
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Subject: Re: abstract, please.... First Overunity Results ? with my 
  Newman's , Machine...
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Hi all,
At 01:05 PM 11/22/98 -0500, Keith wrote:
>Hi J.
>
>Ok, so looking at the traces, I see a mostly constant voltage with
>larges surges of current; this suggests that the power supply
>must have large buffering capacitors (or is in some manner regulated
>to a constant voltage). So, as this seems not to affect the operation
>of the machine; might I suggest a more accurate measurement technique?
>If you put a large capacitor in parallel with the machine and the
>power supply, you can move the current sensing resistor to the
>input side of the capactor. Now, if the cap is large enough the
>current measurement will approach DC. You will no longer be pushing
>the nyquist limit of the sample. The cap losses should be small
>if a good Hi-Q unit is choosen.
>
Wouldn't the capacitor itself be a very good measurement device? It isn't
the current itself that one is interested in, but the time integral of it.
Just run the machine for a short time from a capacitor, and measure the
voltage change.
Q=CV.
If the claims are true that the back current pulses have a net higher charge
than the foward ones, then the machine would run off an initially charged
capacitor as an electrical ou generator!!
-Dave

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At 12:40 PM 11/22/98 -0800, Bill wrote:
>On Sat, 21 Nov 1998 mbgupta@julian.uwo.ca wrote:
>
>> I have been reading about DePalma's work and am very keen in building the
>> N-Machine. I would like to know if anyone has any experience with this work
>> and if its work pursuing. To me it appears that this maybe a doable project
>> but I would like to get any input I can before starting.
>
>Have any other freenrg-L people messed with rotary disk generators
>recently?

I tried some months ago, but only got a few mV. I was limited to about 2000 rpm.
The magnet rotating with respect to the external wiring also produced a "1
turn" voltage. It did lead me to questions about magnetic "fields" and
induction, for example, if a rotating shaft is the core of a fixed
electromagnet, how does the rotation change the field. Also tried to think
of homopolar configurations where "multiple turn" voltages could be
generated, the flat face of a toroid coil, for example. Then I could clearly
separate the voltage from the "external" circuit voltage, but wasn't
successful.  
>
>Some of the weirdness associated with Hompolar Generators (HPGs, or
>N-machines) was later found to have conventional explanations.  However,
>I'm not at all convinced that they are obvious and boring, or that they
>contain no secrets and no great discoveries.  
>
>A second question which has never been answered as far as I know: does the
>shape of the output circuit have any effect on the required drive torque?
>If the N-machine's massive output circuit is built from radially
>symmetrical metal shells rather than from bussbars, will this reduce the
>mechanical back-action of the generator at all?  Will a cylindrical
>n-machine take less work to rotate?

Are you thinking of changing the fields 90 deg, so you have rotating
cylinders and a radial field? This is then like a drum armature and looops
can be put in series for higher voltages. I also have seen descriptions of
homopolar disk machines with superconducting magnets.
-Dave

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 22 20:47:12 1998
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William Beaty wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 20 Nov 1998, Bob Shannon wrote:
> 
> > Claims should be reported, but then evaluated in light of what little we
> > do know about physics today.  If a claim is in direct conflict with
> > well-known
> > phenomena, then it should be rejected.
> 
> It's always part of a spectrum: on one end we have people who are
> convinced that the earth is flat, and that satellites are a hoaxed part of
> a vast conspiracy.  They are clearly wrong.  On the other end of the
> spectrum, we have physicists who ridicule any Cold Fusion claim on the
> grounds that fusion physics and phenomena is very well known, and there is
> simply no room in it for low-velocity fusion in metal crystals.  The world
> thinks they are right, but they might be mistaken.

Agreed.

But high energy fusion scientists have no experiance in low velocity
fusion, so we are not in discgreement with 'well know' pheomena!
 
> If a claim goes against well-known phenomena, then it should not be
> rejected.  However, it should be regarded as suspect, and the truth to the
> claim can only be verified by independant replication of the claimed
> phenomena.  The real world is the final arbiter, not us.  For example,
> when a REAL cold fusion device is pitted against thousands of smirking
> physicists, the physicists lose, and their obvious and well-known ideas
> are shown to have a massive flaw.
> 
> > Credible claims should be investigated, while suspect claims should only
> > be
> > reported as suspect to try to reduce the all-too-common free energy
> > frauds.
> 
> But who judges whether a claim is credible?  The whole point of this forum
> is to look at claims which any reputable scientist would dismiss as
> unworthy of investigation.

My reccomendations above were intended for each individual researcher.

If the relativly small set of alternative theory researchers were to
invest
their limited resources evaluating 'suspect' claims, what little we have
would be wasted.

We cannot afford to plow barren ground.
 
> But I see what you are getting at.  "IDEA TRIAGE."  Which ideas are too
> far gone to save, and which deserve our time and effort.  We cannot
> replicate every crazy thing which comes down the pike, if we did, we would
> stop looking for needles in the haystack, and instead spend all our time
> arguing with people who are convince that the special and important piece
> of hay they've discovered, is actually a needle.

Yes exactly!  This seems to be the situation today.

It leads to one result, burn-out.  Avid researchers must sift through
vast numbers
of claims and counter claims.  To try to know even a small fraction of
the important peices of hay, your not going to have the time to evaluate
them properly.

All you know, is this one, or that one, MIGHT BE the needle.  This
consumes a lot
of personal energy and dedication, but it does not find many needles.

So many burn our in exactly this way.
 
> > Far too many alternative research investors have been, and will be
> > defrauded by deceitful, and self-deceitful false claims.
> 
> It's the self-deceit which causes nearly all the problems.

Yes, I've seen fraud follow self-deciet however.  They are linked.
 
> > The idea that an object placed between the plates of a charged capacitor
> > is subjected to a rotating magnetic field is in direct conflict with
> > what we know about the behavior of many electronic systems.  This claim
> > can be easily dismissed as fantasy.
> 
> If the inventor at one time had an actual working device, and he WRONGLY
> EXPLAINED that it used rotating fields in a capacitor, and if we therefor
> dismissed his "crazy" claims, then we would be wrong.

True.  So we must look at the whole claim, and the total weight of
evidence.
 
> Assigning pet theories to real inexplicable phenomena is a continuing
> problem in hobbyist research. If somebody stumbles across something real
> and valuable during their research, and then explains it with a theory
> which proves to be totally flawed, then the original discovery will be
> rejected.  Therefor it is very important that we communicate our anomalous
> observations as if they are separate discoveries.  When something works,
> we should show others how to do it.  We should not load our discoveries up
> with our own personal theoretical interpretations.  If our theory is
> wrong, it should not stand in the way of investigation of the strange
> phenomeon we have discovered.

Excellent point!  The delivery and presentation is very important.

If a researcher presents detailed observations, and can fully describe
the
test conditions, then the claim can either be duplicated, or not.  

If it can be duplicated, can it be understood by conventional theory?

If not, then sing out loud and clear! 

If you cannot duplicted the oservation, what experimental condition
might
have been overlooked?  

<snip>

> We'd have to know just what the original experimenter ACTUALLY DID. 
> Second hand information not so useful (third and forth hand rumors are so
> distorted as to be totally useless.)  What we really need is the inventor
> to explain exactly what he did, in his own words, and in great detail. 

Yes, first we need to know if the claim is based on an actual
experiment.

All too often people build a 'claim' around a 'what-if' idea.  Someone
will
ask a 'what-if' style question that will generate some interesting
speculation.
This speculation grows with each retelling like a fishing story, and low
and 
behold, we have a new mythical suppressed free energy device.

Secondly the experiment must be documented fully, so it can be
reproduced.

EXperiments with 'special components' that cannot be duplicated are
problematic.

There is the Sweet VTA, and the Morey Tube as examples.  There are
claims for 
each of these of course, but what actual data exists?

The only know video tape of a VTA in operation seems to suggest
experimental error
or fraud (full output long before the input oscillator fully powered
on!).

Devices that lack full documentation and cannot be reproduced can never
be
disproven as non-working!  Cheap insurance for your claims, if thats
what
your looking for, keep some 'special process' a secret, and you will
probably
never be disproven.   

Unprovable claims live on forever, adding hay to the stack, reducing the
chance
of finding the needle with limited resources and time.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 22 20:54:58 1998
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Hi Fred!
<snip good observations!>

>I suggest it does, in the following devices:


What do you think of John Hutchison's "Hutchison" device?  John used only HF
equipment without any spark-gap for unconventional matter/energy anomilies.
Would it fall under the Ampere Force Law  :-)

Maybe John Hutchisons' work will be reproduced by other researchers.

Regards,   Michael Randall


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 22 21:45:48 1998
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Subject: Re: N-machine musings
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At 12:40 PM 11/22/98 -0800, William Beaty wrote:
>On Sat, 21 Nov 1998 mbgupta@julian.uwo.ca wrote:
>
>> I have been reading about DePalma's work and am very keen in building the
>> N-Machine. I would like to know if anyone has any experience with this work
>> and if its worth pursuing. To me it appears that this maybe a doable
project
>> but I would like to get any input I can before starting.
>
>Have any other freenrg-L people messed with rotary disk generators
>recently?
>
>Some of the weirdness associated with Hompolar Generators (HPGs, or
>N-machines) was later found to have conventional explanations.  However,
>I'm not at all convinced that they are obvious and boring, or that they
>contain no secrets and no great discoveries.  
>
I most certainly don't think this is at all that obvious/boring unless you
think the metal contacts are cutting the magnetic field causing electricity
to flow!  Don't think so. The weight loss is another aspect that is very
intriguing and would have to be checked out with the conventional
generators also, which I plan to do in due course. Unless someone has
already done so?

>Get Valone's book "The Homopolar Handbook : A Definitive Guide to Faraday
>Disk & N-Machine Technologies" (Amazon page:
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0964107015/
>
After reading DePalma's review on this book it reminded so much about
typical armchair critics (one who has lots to say but little or no interest
in actually doing the experiment) I thought I should check out at the
library instead of wasting money on it.
See the following link for DePalma's view on this book at:


http://depalma.pair.com/valone.html

>I have a small page of links, diagrams, and musings on this topic (I've
>done no serious experiments myself.)  See
>http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/freenrg/n-mach.html
>

Many thx for all the info you sent Bill. I found this very informative. The
Japanese links were very interesting one of your links needs to be updated
from:


http://www.depalma.org.nz/  to http://depalma.pair.com/

I am still going through all the info in the links at the moment.

>If you build any devices, go for the designs which employ liquid-metal
>brush.  When compared to bulk metal, the sliding carbon blocks have huge
>resistance, especially right at the contact surface.  Any O/U effects will
>be eaten by the brushes.  Direct metal/metal contact eliminates this
>problem.  Toxic mercury is unnecessary, use an indium-based solder with
>low melting point (some of these solders will melt at 120F.) 
>

With such low voltages I think there is no option but to use liquid contacts. 
Where can I get indium-bases solder I have never heard of it? This is
fantastic its about half the temp of boiling water. Hope you don't mean C
instead of F?
Although in a totally sealed environment Mercury may still be an option.

>One thing that always fascinated me: the so-called "Q-machine", where the
>permanent magnets of the N-machine are replaced with AC electromagnets.
>This causes the huge output current of the rotating disk to be AC, which
>means that it can be stepped up via a transformer and used to power
>conventional equipment (such as motors.)  If overunity effects are hidden

>in HPG devices, a transformer-equipped "Q-machine" with liquid metal
>brushes MIGHT be the way to demonstrate this.
>
Think its really worth looking again at DePalma's patent application at:


http://depalma.pair.com/paten/patent.html

DESCRIPTION OF INVENTION 
  
According to the present invention there is provided a single piece
homopolar generator which has one moving
part, the rotor and in which the desired electrical potential is produced 

without the mutual interaction of a second member (stator). This generator
includes an electrically
conductive member such as a cylindrical tube having two magnets therein
which) when the generator is in
operation, rotate with the tube. The cylindrical version of this generator,
known as a QUADRAPOLE, is not an
immediately apparent development of the original Faraday 'one-piece'
axially rotated magnet experiment since
the vector directions of  the (radial) magnetic flux lines and axially
flowing electrical current are interchanged in their respective directions
in comparison to the previously described Faraday Disc experiment. 
[snip]  

Besides the above configuration he discusses a number of other variations
and limitations eg:

Without the provision of external pole pieces and a closed magnetic flux
path, the attainable magnetic
field strength within such a machine would be so low as to render the
machine not suitable for commercial
application. Rare earth high strength permanent magnets make it possible to
obtain high strength and useful
radially directed magnetic flux lines without closed magnetic flux paths.
The radially directed flux arises
from mutual repulsion of homopolar flux fields. [snip]

>A second question which has never been answered as far as I know: does the
>shape of the output circuit have any effect on the required drive torque?
>If the N-machine's massive output circuit is built from radially
>symmetrical metal shells rather than from bussbars, will this reduce the
>mechanical back-action of the generator at all?  Will a cylindrical
>n-machine take less work to rotate?  Yes, there might be no
>interesting EM secrets in N-machines, and any new experiments might be a
>waste of time.  But if a totally symmetrical n-machine was shown to have a
>reduced mechanical analog of "back EMF", then this strongly suggests that
>a SUPERCONDUCTING n-machine would be WAY overunity, and might easily be
>coaxed into a runaway mode, similar to the claims re. the Searle disk.
>

Here is another quote from the said patent that somewhat address the above:

Due to the high currents generated by the generator, super conducting
materials are particularly suitable to be incorporated in or used with
cylindrical tube. 

A generator of the type herein before described can produce very high
output currents (multiples of kilo amperes) at low voltages. The withdrawal
of high electrical currents from the generator results in a magnetic field
consisting of circular flux tines enclosing the central zone of the
cylindrical tube. A method of cancelling or at least minimizing these
effects will now be described with reference to figure 7 of the drawings. 


Referring to figure 7 there is shown a schematic representation of a
generator similar to that depicted in
figure 1 including magnetic compensation means. In the embodiment shown a
conductive compensation tube is positioned about and spaced apart from, the
central zone of cylindrical tube. One end of compensation tube is
electrically connected to contact by conductor . The opposite end of
compensation tube is connected to outward terminal of the generator by
conductive connection. Compensation tube remains stationary while
cylindrical body rotates relative thereto. Compensation tube produces
compensatory circular magnetic flux which cancels the field generated by
withdrawal of current. This works in the same manner as a coaxial cable;
whereby equal currents flow in opposite directions thus the magnetic fields
thereby produced cancel each other. The cancellation of the magnetic fields
due to the high currents in the generator is important, since the field
distortion (armature reaction) produced by these currents when
uncompensated can limit the power output of the machine by altering the
perpendicularity of the flux lines to the rotating cylindrical tube. 

According to the RealAudio Link to "Sightings" Broadcast of 28 August 1997,
BP says that about 2 hrs in the interview says that N-Machine is being used
in the US navy subs? Anyone able to confirm this?


http://www.audionet.com/shows/endoftheline/9708/end0828.ram

BTW what happened to DePalma? Is he still around thought he passed away if
so how?

Thanks

Chris Gupta


>((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
>William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
>billb@eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
>EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
>Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L
> 




From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 22 22:15:23 1998
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As the spark and it's intensity seems to be a major controlling factor in
Newman's machine, has anybody tried to see what the effect would be, if the
spark occured in other gass?  Such as Helium, Argon or other inert gases?

Matti

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 22 23:26:10 1998
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-----Original Message-----
From: MATTIARO@aol.com <MATTIARO@aol.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Monday, November 23, 1998 1:11 AM
Subject: Re: Idea, plasmas, and the Newman machine


>As the spark and it's intensity seems to be a major controlling factor in
>Newman's machine, has anybody tried to see what the effect would be, if the
>spark occured in other gass?  Such as Helium, Argon or other inert gases?
>
>Matti
>


Dear Stephan & J.L.:

Like, for example UNDER WATER??   <hint, hint, hint>   ;-)

Dave

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 22 23:50:17 1998
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On Mon, 23 Nov 1998 mbgupta@julian.uwo.ca wrote:
> 
> With such low voltages I think there is no option but to use liquid contacts. 
> Where can I get indium-bases solder I have never heard of it? This is
> fantastic its about half the temp of boiling water. Hope you don't mean C
> instead of F?
> Although in a totally sealed environment Mercury may still be an option.

I saw indium solder in Don Lancaster's columns a few years back.  It was
intended for casting of metal prototypes using plastic or rubber molds. 
There were a variety of alloys, and I noted that the lowest melting
temperature was something that you could plunge your hand into (hoax:
dipping your hand into molten metal, creating a silver foil glove!)  A
typical prank is to obtain a mold for a silver spoon, cast it from
low-melting-point metal, then use it to stir coffee or boiling chili.  It
"burns the end off of" the spoon! (but most contain lead, so it ruins the
food.) 

I recall that an old version of this material was called Wood's Metal.
It's used in fire sprinkler systems as the trigger.

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb@eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
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Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 23 00:11:50 1998
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On Sun, 22 Nov 1998, dave dameron wrote:

> >A second question which has never been answered as far as I know: does the
> >shape of the output circuit have any effect on the required drive torque?
> >If the N-machine's massive output circuit is built from radially
> >symmetrical metal shells rather than from bussbars, will this reduce the
> >mechanical back-action of the generator at all?  Will a cylindrical
> >n-machine take less work to rotate?
> 
> Are you thinking of changing the fields 90 deg, so you have rotating
> cylinders and a radial field? This is then like a drum armature and looops
> can be put in series for higher voltages. I also have seen descriptions of
> homopolar disk machines with superconducting magnets.

Nope.  Instead remove the external circuit and use disks
and hollow cylinder shapes to replace it, so there are no "wires" to cut
the fields, only nonrotating shapes.  The disk would rotate inside of the
"external circuit" assembly.  See the diagrams at
http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/freenrg/n-mach.html



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billb@eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 23 00:18:51 1998
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Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 03:28:22 -0600
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From: josephnewman@earthlink.net (Evan Soule)
Subject: Re: Idea, plasmas, and the Newman machine
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>As the spark and it's intensity seems to be a major controlling factor in
>Newman's machine, has anybody tried to see what the effect would be, if the
>spark occured in other gass?  Such as Helium, Argon or other inert gases?
>
>Matti

Joseph Newman has reported that he has achieved (mechanical and/or
electrical) EEO>EEI with and without the "sparking" effect.

ERS














"Help stamp out and eradicate superfluous redundancy...."


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 23 00:31:44 1998
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Can any of the Rife technology help with this medical situation?

My friend has had the following:
2 strokes
2nd stroke resulting in epilepsy, partial memory loss, short-term memory
problems, paralysis, hemeparisis, stuttering, migraines, tremors,
myoclonic jerks, menopause, amenorrhea. 

Further, her lymphatic system, adrenal, renals, hypothalamus and
pituitary systems were affected.  The medicine also placed her in a
premature state of menopause and later resulted in amenorrhea.  During
the aftermath she has been diagnosed with fibrocystic breasts, cysts on
her thyroids and given bleak hope for utilizing (some), maximizing
(others) her learning processes and creative abilities with no hope for
a career and uncertain prospects for having children.   

She still suffers with epilepsy, tremors, and myoclonic jerks,
short-term-memory problems, occasional hemeparisis, stuttering,
migraines, amenorrhea and etc.

It is believe that all of this started as the result of a physician's
decision to medically inject her with an experimental drug.

Because she is a fighter and positive person she is determined to find
solutions.  
She had biofeedback with concentration on alpha, theta, beta, delta and
I believe brain stem.
She has undergone physical therapy, occupational therapy and limited
memory training.
She has been prescribed herbal treatments along with traditional
medicines.
She currently takes 4,000 milligrams of neurontin, daily for epilepsy. 
Her doctors have not gained control of the seizures.  However, they are
hopeful.  

We have been trying to research her health situation to find ways to
improve the quality of her life
We've located an Internet site, which speaks of cell makeup, receptors
and toxins.
http://www.wtp.net/~rrr/toxicology.html

Excerpt :

Highly reactive compounds may react with cell membranes and cause
instant cell death by damaging the cell membrane sufficiently to allow
rapid loss of contents and influx of external ions and substances. Some
toxic compounds interfere directly with vital cellular functions such as
respiration, which can lead to cell death. But some toxic reactions
occur slowly. Still other toxic responses may cause a change in blood
pressure by affecting ß-adrenoceptors or by causing vascular dilation or
constriction. A drop in blood pressure may be sufficient to initiate
another response such as ischemic tissue damage due to insufficient
blood flow.

Do you think this has any relevance or connection to her situation?
Any insight or help you can give will be greatly appreciated.

Darryl

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 23 00:37:21 1998
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Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 22:33:54 -1000
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From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: N-machine musings
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Bill -

  > I recall that an old version of this
  > material was called Wood's Metal.

It's called "foundry metal" too.

Special Effect Supply sold me some. They're at:

 http://www.xmission.com:80/~spl_efx/

Also  McMaster-Carr http://www.mcmaster.com/ stocks several different
kinds. No doubt MSC has it too.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 23 00:56:26 1998
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Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 03:55:41 -0500
From: Ralph E Griffin <ralph_griffin@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: First Overunity Results ? with my Newman's , Machine...
Sender: Ralph E Griffin <ralph_griffin@compuserve.com>
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Keith Nagel wrote:
>Hi J. [Jean-Louis Naudin]
>
>At 04:33 PM 11/21/98 EST, you wrote:
>>The Voltage has been measured accross the input of the machine and the
>>current with accross 1 ohms ceramic resistor in series, the scope is
>>able to handle a hall probe or a simple resistor for measuring the
>>current, this is a simple software setting.
>
>Ok, so looking at the traces, I see a mostly constant voltage with
>larges surges of current; this suggests that the power supply
>must have large buffering capacitors (or is in some manner regulated
>to a constant voltage). So, as this seems not to affect the operation
>of the machine; might I suggest a more accurate measurement technique?
>If you put a large capacitor in parallel with the machine and the
>power supply, you can move the current sensing resistor to the
>input side of the capactor. Now, if the cap is large enough the
>current measurement will approach DC. You will no longer be pushing
>the nyquist limit of the sample. The cap losses should be small
>if a good Hi-Q unit is choosen.

Yes. I also highly recommend that method of measurement. If the voltage is
constant, then AVERAGE(P) = AVERAGE(V*I) = AVERAGE(V)*AVERAGE(I). Another
way to measure average current is to just put an RC filter accross the
current sense resistor, and measure the output of the RC filter. Of course,
the R must be much less than the input impeadance of the scope (or DVM),
and the capacitor leakage current must not be too high. Some resistors are
made of a coil of conductor which has an inductance. This can make your
spike current look bigger than it really is, but a low pass filter can take
care of that problem.

If you don't buy my argument regarding average power, then just use the
method recommended by Keith. After all, his method gets down to the real
average power coming out of the power supply which is what determines the
real efficiency. Unfortunately, his method requires you to aquire more high
voltage capacitors and the key word here is "large". The total capacitance
must be much larger (and have a much lower ESR) than the output capaciatnce
of the power supply, or you must make a LC filter for the power stage while
being carfull that it does not have a high Q resonance at any on the
frequencies where it may be excited by the test circuit. It can get ugly.

R.G.

  

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 23 00:57:24 1998
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From: "Fred Epps" <fepps@halcyon.com>
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Subject: Re: Idea, plasmas, and the Newman machine
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 00:03:18 -0800
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Hi Matti,


>As the spark and it's intensity seems to be a major controlling factor
in
>Newman's machine,

Well, that's my opinion-- not shared by the inventor :-)

has anybody tried to see what the effect would be, if the
>spark occured in other gass?  Such as Helium, Argon or other inert
gases?

I'm still trying to dig up the papers on this, somewher in my issues of
Infinte Energy magazine (I think) is an article by Robert Nelson (I
think) about the experiments done by Roentgen on anomalous energy in
Nitrogen and other gases. When I find this I will be able to quote
chapter and verse but basically it corroborates what Aspden suggested in
several articles on plasma physics. The one I have handy here is
"Electrodynamic Anomalies in Arc Discharge Phenomena", IEEE Transactions
On Plasma Science, V. PS-5, N.3, Sep 1977.
Nitrogen has been connected to a number of both historic and recent arc
transmutation experiments and so seems like a good candidate for these
reasons as well.

These two articles by P.T. Pappas are critical for understanding how a
spark can give OU: "Energy Creation In Electrical Sparks And Discharges:
Theory And Direct Experimental Evidence" (This paper was in the IECEC
proceedings one year but I am not sure which year as it was given to me
as a xerox) and "The Cardinal Law Of Electrodynamics, The Principle Of
Conservation Of Energy And The Tesla Magnifying Effect" (a Tesla
Conference paper but again the year is missing).
Pappas explains how the presence of gas ions can allow part of the
discharge to accelerate past the
70% of c which is necessary for the motional magnetic forces to overcome
the coulomb forces and concentrate the electrons (this only occurs in
the Ampere force equation not the Lorentz one).  This increases the
potential energy of the discharge without reducing its kinetic energy.
Basically, and this is my interpretation, when the spark hits the
cathode, the new, stored electrostatic energy is released along with the
energy put into the arc in the first place, thus OU.

Pappas has a website,

http://www.papimi.gr/

But he now seems to be interested in healing for the most part. I
haven't written him yet to see what he thinks of his old papers.

Fred



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 23 00:57:31 1998
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From: "Fred Epps" <fepps@halcyon.com>
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Subject: Hutchison WAS Idea, plasmas, and the Newman machine
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 00:38:40 -0800
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Hi Michael!

><snip good observations!>

Thanks!
>
>>I suggest it does, in the following devices:
>
>
>What do you think of John Hutchison's "Hutchison" device?  John used
only HF
>equipment without any spark-gap for unconventional matter/energy
anomilies.

Yes, I am familiar with his work.

>Would it fall under the Ampere Force Law  :-)

Not at all, you are talking about a whole different type of thing there.
Of course I have a theory
about it... well you DID ask me what I thought, you poor soul ;-)
I will just say here that the few experiments which most closely relate
are the Zinsser effect, and some experiments in what might be called
electronic physical mediumship.
The Zinsser effect is what happens when you take a small vial of water,
put a small dipole in the vial, and subject the water to any of a wide
range of high-harmonic RF freqs at mW power levels for a short period of
time, maybe a minute. If the vial is attached to a swinging arm, like a
horizontal scale, it will begin to move and continue to move for hours
after the excitation is removed. The total force on the arm is
magnitudes higher than the original RF energy, so of course it is OU (as
well as disregarding the action/reaction law) -- but the most
interesting thing is that the water becomes responsive to the people who
are in the room when the experiment is done!  When these people leave or
re-enter, the vial will jerk. In addition it becomes sensitive to
sferics, lightning and in fact almost any electrical changes.
These experiments have been done very carefully in highly controlled
environments.
My explanation for this is quite unconventional. I believe that what New
Agers call "higher vibrations" as in higher planes of reality like the
astral plane have a specific nature.  This reality is correlated with
the orbital rate of electrons around the nucleus.  (I have no real
justification for this, it is just a hypothesis to guide research until
something better comes along...) We think that the orbital rate of
electrons is fixed, but actually it can take many values, perhaps in a
quantized way.  But we can usually only be aware of one of them-- the
one we know. The other ones are ghostly to us. Basically what I see
happening in the Hutchison and other similar effects is a stimulation of
the electrons into a FASTER orbit, not a different one. Maybe this has
something to do with electron spin resonance, I don't know.
If the stimulation is high enough, the object disappears (philadelphia
experiment), but if the stimulation is not as strong, the material
becomes only partly "aetherialized". The matter loses inertia,
essentially. It becomes a little ghost like. It becomes more susceptible
to thought or any other energies that are present.  This aetherialized
matter is what is seen in the Zinsser effect, the Hutchison effect, in
spoon bending, in teleport and apport phenomena, and on and on... Well I
do drone on :-)

Maybe John Hutchisons' work will be reproduced by other researchers.

Even John has a hard time reproducing it, as he mentions on his web
site. But he is beginning to get results.
Actually I don't think that all that equipment is necessary...

Fred

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 23 02:22:38 1998
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From: JNaudin509@aol.com
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Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 05:21:52 EST
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On 23/11/98 09:57:11 Paris, Madrid, ralph_griffin@CompuServe.COM wrote :

> If you don't buy my argument regarding average power, then just use the
>  method recommended by Keith. After all, his method gets down to the real
>  average power coming out of the power supply which is what determines the
>  real efficiency.

Dear Ralph, Keith and all,

Thank you very much for all your helpfull comments about my first test
results. This will help me to go further in this way and thus will improve my
current measurement method for the next tests.

Today, I can say that the Neman's machine give me always some interesting
results, the tuning is not also simple that a conventional machine. The Tests
phase is not yet finished, more accurate measurements need to be conducted
again. 
Now, my main purpose is to magnify the main "overunity effect ( ? )" and by
this way, to find the exact location of this weird phenomenon.

Thanks to all for your support and for all your many encouraments that you
have sent to me .
All positive and constructive comments are always welcome.

Best Regards,

Jean-Louis Naudin

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 23 05:02:16 1998
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Subject: Re: N-machine musings
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On Mon, 23 Nov 1998 00:31:34 -0500 mbgupta@julian.uwo.ca writes:
>At 12:40 PM 11/22/98 -0800, William Beaty wrote:
>>On Sat, 21 Nov 1998 mbgupta@julian.uwo.ca wrote:
>>
>>One thing that always fascinated me: the so-called "Q-machine", where 
>the
>>permanent magnets of the N-machine are replaced with AC 
>electromagnets.
>>This causes the huge output current of the rotating disk to be AC, 
>which
>>means that it can be stepped up via a transformer and used to power
>>conventional equipment (such as motors.)  If overunity effects are 
>hidden
>
>>in HPG devices, a transformer-equipped "Q-machine" with liquid metal
>>brushes MIGHT be the way to demonstrate this.
>>

If the current flow is reversed by a reversal of the magnetic polarity,
would it then be better to use two spinning gears rather than a single
spinning disk?  If they were placed in front of a horseshoe magnet so
that one was in front of the south and the other the north, then the
outward flow of one would contact the inward flow of the other where the
gears meshed with less friction than a dragging contact and eliminate the
need for the liquid metal while possibly increasing the output. You could
even use a horseshoe electromagnet to get your AC.

Dave
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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 23 06:04:46 1998
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From: PetMagic@aol.com
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In a message dated 11/23/98 3:32:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, kbsdk@swbell.net
writes:

 
 
 Can any of the Rife technology help with this medical situation?
 
 My friend has had the following:
 2 strokes
 2nd stroke resulting in epilepsy, partial memory loss, short-term memory
 problems, paralysis, hemeparisis, stuttering, migraines, tremors,
 myoclonic jerks, menopause, amenorrhea. 
 
 Further, her lymphatic system, adrenal, renals, hypothalamus and
 pituitary systems were affected.  The medicine also placed her in a
 premature state of menopause and later resulted in amenorrhea.  During
 the aftermath she has been diagnosed with fibrocystic breasts, cysts on
 her thyroids and given bleak hope for utilizing (some), maximizing
 (others) her learning processes and creative abilities with no hope for
 a career and uncertain prospects for having children.   
 
 She still suffers with epilepsy, tremors, and myoclonic jerks,
 short-term-memory problems, occasional hemeparisis, stuttering,
 migraines, amenorrhea and etc.
 
 It is believe that all of this started as the result of a physician's
 decision to medically inject her with an experimental drug.
 
 Because she is a fighter and positive person she is determined to find
 solutions.  
 She had biofeedback with concentration on alpha, theta, beta, delta and
 I believe brain stem.
 She has undergone physical therapy, occupational therapy and limited
 memory training.
 She has been prescribed herbal treatments along with traditional
 medicines.
 She currently takes 4,000 milligrams of neurontin, daily for epilepsy. 
 Her doctors have not gained control of the seizures.  However, they are
 hopeful.  
 
 We have been trying to research her health situation to find ways to
 improve the quality of her life
 We've located an Internet site, which speaks of cell makeup, receptors
 and toxins.
 http://www.wtp.net/~rrr/toxicology.html
 
 Excerpt :
 
 Highly reactive compounds may react with cell membranes and cause
 instant cell death by damaging the cell membrane sufficiently to allow
 rapid loss of contents and influx of external ions and substances. Some
 toxic compounds interfere directly with vital cellular functions such as
 respiration, which can lead to cell death. But some toxic reactions
 occur slowly. Still other toxic responses may cause a change in blood
 pressure by affecting ß-adrenoceptors or by causing vascular dilation or
 constriction. A drop in blood pressure may be sufficient to initiate
 another response such as ischemic tissue damage due to insufficient
 blood flow.
 
 Do you think this has any relevance or connection to her situation?
 Any insight or help you can give will be greatly appreciated.
 
 Darryl
  >>
Rife frequencies kill invaders at their Mortal Oszillatory Rate or increase
cellular functioning, like releasing white blood cells .  The cellular
comunications effects is barely understood and difficuilt to apply to
research. Chemical poisoning should be dealt with by detoxifying , specific
energy treatment like acupuncure or laser light may help jump start "deceived"
organs like adrenal glands. Some substances like intrasound or monoatomic
elements are claimed to help the cells remember their proper connection.
(Prayer and other positive focus of energy fits into this category)
Peter

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 23 06:07:13 1998
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Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 15:02:44 +0100
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From: Dieter Bauer <WDBAUER@vossnet.de>
Subject: Zaev-Konverter seems to show overunity
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>Hello Sergej !
>
>You wrote:
>>On this week i has conducted the charge/discharge experiments with
>>a little Zaev's variconds battery and more exact digital integrator.
>>It was found that under FAST(!) discharge and SLOW charge the
>>OU effect (COP=162% under 2A discharge current) are took place.
>>This COP are not depended from switching period!
>>....and heat flowing accordingly!!!
>>Also was found that other tested capacitors with polymeric dielectric
>>had the SAME effects, but much less percents!
>>
>>I guess, that maximum estimated varicond COP will be less or equal 2.
>>I don't know where is the source of this energy yet. We can only suppose
>> that the basic principle are lying more dipper than our..
>>...sorry, my... imaginatination permit.
>>
>>Beers & Cheers for good weekend :-)
>>
>>-Serge
>>
>
>Great work ! I think you have rescued the thing ! And I think, it can be
followed.
>
>First some words to my last message in freenrg-l
>The formula describing the adiabate under fast charge or discharge
>
>     C_E  . (delta T) =  - V. T .(d D  OVER d T)_E  . (delta E)
>
>is ok ! The text behind was nonsense !
>(C_E=heat capacity at field E, V=volume, T=temperature, E=electrical field,
D=epsilon_0  . epsilon_r
>
>Probably the correct shape of your cycle can be explained consisting of the
following phases:
>
>1) Adiababatic, isentropic down cooling by fast discharge of the
ferroelectric capacitor material (dEpsilon/dT >0)
>2) "Slow" polytropic (i.e. intermediate between isothermic and isentropic
path) heating up under heat influx.
>
>If the process is started the thermodynamic cycles are not closed yet
because the temperature gradient from environment to the capacitance after
the adiabatic discharge is not big enough to transport enough heat into the
hole necessary for a stabile working. Therefore, because the adiabatic cool
down jump of temperature is bigger than the polytropic jump the capacitance
should cool down and build up a "cold hole". If the
"cold hole" is cold enough and the heat influx therefrom coming from
environment equilibrates approximately the (isothermic heat exchange energy
* frequency) needed to maintain the more isothermic (polytropic) charging
path during the cycle then you have reached the limit cycle of this problem
if formulated as differential equation system.
>
>It is important to note that
>a) the thermic relaxation time is much longer than the frequencies of the
cycle you use. Therefore, the time necessary for an isocharge cooling down
as proposed in my comment + picture at http://www.overunity.de/zaev does not
exist in this case although it should be possible from a principal point of
view ! see as well at J.L.Naudins server http://members.aol.com/~jnaudin509
>b) The reverse process ( adiabatic charge - slow discharge) cannot work
with overunity efficiencies because the adiabatic jump heats up the
capacitance more than it is cooled down during the polytropic phase. Here
you build up a hot spot.
>c) It is clear, we neglected any hysteresis losses in our consideration.
>
>
>Sincerly
>
>Dieter Bauer
>
>P.S.: I try to model this problem by a numeric simulation !

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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 23 09:34:38 1998
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Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 09:40:58 -0600
From: "Don J. S. Adams" <donadams@telusplanet.net>
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not to be construed as medical device;

I suspect that the Bare/Rife plasma generator would be helpful.
However, I would think that use of the Graham Potenializer might be more
so or at least as equally helpful.  Also would highly recommend the
aquisition of a book by Hulda Clarke, 'Cure for All Diseases'.
The GP (Graham Potentializer) would be extremely helpful for many
of the brain disorders as well as her lymphatic system.  It is very
likely that
her kidneys and liver were bombarded with toxins...these should be
cleaned
out rigorously.  Follow Clarkes detailed instructions as outlined in her
book
for all the ailments you can find listed there in.  Hope this is of some
help.

nmb wrote:
> 
> Can any of the Rife technology help with this medical situation?
> 
> My friend has had the following:
> 2 strokes
> 2nd stroke resulting in epilepsy, partial memory loss, short-term memory
> problems, paralysis, hemeparisis, stuttering, migraines, tremors,
> myoclonic jerks, menopause, amenorrhea.
> 
> Further, her lymphatic system, adrenal, renals, hypothalamus and
> pituitary systems were affected.  The medicine also placed her in a
> premature state of menopause and later resulted in amenorrhea.  During
> the aftermath she has been diagnosed with fibrocystic breasts, cysts on
> her thyroids and given bleak hope for utilizing (some), maximizing
> (others) her learning processes and creative abilities with no hope for
> a career and uncertain prospects for having children.
> 
> She still suffers with epilepsy, tremors, and myoclonic jerks,
> short-term-memory problems, occasional hemeparisis, stuttering,
> migraines, amenorrhea and etc.
> 
> It is believe that all of this started as the result of a physician's
> decision to medically inject her with an experimental drug.
> 
> Because she is a fighter and positive person she is determined to find
> solutions.
> She had biofeedback with concentration on alpha, theta, beta, delta and
> I believe brain stem.
> She has undergone physical therapy, occupational therapy and limited
> memory training.
> She has been prescribed herbal treatments along with traditional
> medicines.
> She currently takes 4,000 milligrams of neurontin, daily for epilepsy.
> Her doctors have not gained control of the seizures.  However, they are
> hopeful.
> 
> We have been trying to research her health situation to find ways to
> improve the quality of her life
> We've located an Internet site, which speaks of cell makeup, receptors
> and toxins.
> http://www.wtp.net/~rrr/toxicology.html
> 
> Excerpt :
> 
> Highly reactive compounds may react with cell membranes and cause
> instant cell death by damaging the cell membrane sufficiently to allow
> rapid loss of contents and influx of external ions and substances. Some
> toxic compounds interfere directly with vital cellular functions such as
> respiration, which can lead to cell death. But some toxic reactions
> occur slowly. Still other toxic responses may cause a change in blood
> pressure by affecting ß-adrenoceptors or by causing vascular dilation or
> constriction. A drop in blood pressure may be sufficient to initiate
> another response such as ischemic tissue damage due to insufficient
> blood flow.
> 
> Do you think this has any relevance or connection to her situation?
> Any insight or help you can give will be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Darryl

-- 
We must accept the truth, 
even if it changes our 
point of view. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Don J. S. Adams
Managing Consultant
Microsoft
Main Campus, Bldg 1
Redmond, WA
USA

425-882-3431	USA
403-998-4066	Canada

http://www.intergate.bc.ca/business/rave

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 23 09:43:20 1998
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From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS@ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
Subject: RE: Zaev-Konverter seems to show overunity
In-reply-to: <l03130301b27f19b17732@[141.14.131.3]>
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Dieter, Stefan & Jean-Louis,

1) I vaguely remember a long time ago someone telling me that if you stretch 
apart the plates of a charged capacitor, this mechanical energy will be 
converted into electricity.  Recently someone else on the freenrg-l list said 
the same thing.

First of all, is this first item true?

Then:

2) There has also been discussions of electronic devices that carry away heat.
One is magnetically driven, the other is a semiconductor device.  I understand 
both of these have been developed into commercial applications, I have seen the  
semiconductor device advertised as a CPU cooler and a food cooler.  So that it 
would not be unreasonable to accept that heat can be carried away electrically, 
under the right conditions.

If so than I have a question.  Is the Zaev varicond capacitor made from a 
material that has greater expansion & contraction characteristics than the other 
capacitors that you have tested?

If these observations are both true then this capacitor would then act like a 
reciprocating generator driven by heat in the following cycle.

Cycle steps:
1 - Precharge the capacitor.
2 - Let heat expand the distance between the plates, generating electricity.
3 - Discharge the capacitor to carry away the precharge, generated electricity
    and the heat.
4 - The cooled capacitor contracts. Start over with step 1.

Perhaps it's not OU but just a simple heat to electricity converter.  Then maybe 
what we need is a capacitor design optimized to expand and contract the distance 
between the plates as a function of temperature. 

Also, the Zaev device uses a commutator device to trigger the discharge.  Does 
his commutator develop the hissing spark effect that Stefan Hartman & JL Naudin 
have been investigating.  If it does perhaps the two effects have been 
additively working together?

Perhaps all of this has been stated before in more technical terms?

Bill

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 23 09:45:05 1998
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References: <c00fab85.36596b4b@aol.com>
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may also want to check out the Alpha Stim 100 or other models
for some of the brain related problems...

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 23 11:28:13 1998
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From: Richard Austin <richarda@icx.net>
Subject: Re: Whistlers
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The guy lives a couple of hours from me and my friend goes to see him. He has an EXTREMELY high sensitivity to fields and vibes of all sorts. He does healing work. He developed the machines using his higher perceptual abilities.

I plan to visit him before long since we have quite a bit in common.

Apparently the Montauk folks used 435 MHz to entrain the brain for time travel. It may be that various frequencies open up various abilities.

I haven't heard of Frohlich.

I would like to be able to see these various energies and fields so that I can work with them more directly. I am looking for tools to increase perception. Let me know if you have any references to such. I have Barbara Ann Brennan's books "Hands of Light"

 and "Light Emerging".

Quartz and other minerals definitely alter or convert the energies to be usable by the body.

>Hi Richard,
>
>Thanks for the patent refs, they are very interesting.  The first one
>appears to generate longitudinal waves, like in the Yost  "Wiggle Wand"
>experiment, that is, they are not electroMAGNETIC strictly speaking. Of
>course the frequency range is why you mentioned it, and that is also
>unusual, since they clearly don't work by entrainment of the desired
>Theta waves.
>--unless there are HF brain waves-- I just read a report about two
>telekinetic Japanese boys that emitted RF at 34.5 MHz and 21 MHz during
>spoon-bending type experiments.
>I guess there are semiconductor and liquid crystal elements in the body
>that emit energies up into the THz, according to Frohlich et al. These
>aren't associated with the brain in particular, but DNA and
>intracellular membranes. I've never heard of any systematic studies of
>whether the brain puts out HF brain waves.
>I guess you could figure out the theoretical max BW of the synapses by
>looking at the distance between the synapse and the neuron, but I've
>never seen that information.
>The second patent is even more interesting because it doesn't make any
>sense, and
>those are the best kind :-)
>It resembles a healing device I channeled last year, based on aetheric
>waves generated by quartz oscillators when they are running.  In that
>gadget you drive the oscillator crystals off resonance so you can get
>the healing freqs you want.  These crystals would be put at the chakra
>points to do the healing. The aetheric longitudinal waves are like sound
>but can travel through vacuum.
>.
>This patent is even more unconventional than that, since "in theory" you
>would get very little excitation of the crystal by simply winding a coil
>around it. There is no PZ excitation and no EM waves generated, as far
>as I can see.  It is the kind of thing invented by someone who is
>ignorant of how things are supposed to work. I bet it works really well
>;-)
> I suspect that it is not really EM in the usual sense at all, but more
>of these aetheric longitudinal waves. This same principle could be used
>at any frequency to deliver healing energy.
>
>Thanks again for the refs, they are great, I am going to see if I can
>get ahold of this guy.
>
>Fred
>
>>
>>Check out the following patents
>>
>>5480374
>>
>>5562597


Richard Austin  --  email: richarda@icx.net  --  radio: KG7SU
Institute for Planetary Renewal http://user.icx.net/~richarda
(newly updated web site)


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 23 13:21:37 1998
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From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Vicente_Jos=E9_Ramos_Orenga?=" <vramos@ctv.es>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>, <leoguitar@vossnet.de>, <JNaudin509@aol.com>
Cc: <sergio@glasnet.ru>, <tim.vaughan@ccc-infonet.edu>,
        "Wolf-Dietrich Bauer" <WDBAUER@vossnet.de>, <fepps@halcyon.com>,
        "Stefan Hartmann" <leoguitar@vossnet.de>, <tv@juno.com>,
        <ddameron@earthlink.net>, <Djsquires@aol.com>, <n5qxd@stic.net>,
        <srae@mlb.planet.gen.nz>, "freenrg-l" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>,
        "Newman-L Mailing List" <newman-l@emachine.com>,
        "Evan Soule" <josephnewman@earthlink.net>
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_JL=B4s_First_Overunity_Results_=3F!_My_measurements_to?=
	=?iso-8859-1?Q?day..?=
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 21:51:10 +0100
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Hi, Michael and all
Do you want convert Newman machine in another Bedini device?
Vicente.


-----Mensaje original-----
De: mrand@access <mrand@iols.net>
Para: leoguitar@vossnet.de <leoguitar@vossnet.de>; JNaudin509@aol.com
<JNaudin509@aol.com>
CC: sergio@glasnet.ru <sergio@glasnet.ru>; tim.vaughan@ccc-infonet.edu
<tim.vaughan@ccc-infonet.edu>; Wolf-Dietrich Bauer <WDBAUER@vossnet.de>;
fepps@halcyon.com <fepps@halcyon.com>; Stefan Hartmann
<leoguitar@vossnet.de>; tv@juno.com <tv@juno.com>; ddameron@earthlink.net
<ddameron@earthlink.net>; Djsquires@aol.com <Djsquires@aol.com>;
vramos@ctv.es <vramos@ctv.es>; n5qxd@stic.net <n5qxd@stic.net>;
srae@mlb.planet.gen.nz <srae@mlb.planet.gen.nz>; freenrg-l
<freenrg-l@eskimo.com>; Newman-L Mailing List <newman-l@emachine.com>; Evan
Soule <josephnewman@earthlink.net>
Fecha: domingo, 22 de noviembre de 1998 6:32
Asunto: Re: JL´s First Overunity Results ?! My measurements today..


>Hi Jean-Louis and Stefan,
>
>>big congratulations !
>>
>>You deserve the fame ! :)
>
>
>Yes and the same here!
>
>Any idea's on making the unit self-powering?  Maybe charging dead batteries
>like Newmans' units?
>
>Good work!
>
>Regards,  Michael Randall
>
>
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 23 13:39:41 1998
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From: "corncob" <mnorris@akron.infi.net>
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Subject: Settling the question/ Earth resonance
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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 23 17:01:02 1998
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Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 17:02:37 -0800
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com (Freengr List)
From: pgb@padrak.com (Patrick Bailey)
Subject: The 1999 International UFO Congress - Speakers: 2/21-27/99
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http://www.padrak.com/ufo/IUFOC_1999.html

8th Annual International UFO Congress
Convention Film Festival & EBE Awards

February 21 through 27, 1999 - River Palms Resort, Laughlin, Nevada.


The Schedule of Speakers and Events Page is at:

http://www.padrak.com/ufo/SCHED_1999.html


Last Updated On:  Nov. 23, 1998.


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 23 17:06:03 1998
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Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 02:19:39 +0100
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To: freenrg-l <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>,
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        Jean Louis Naudin <jnaudin509@aol.com>,
        dave dameron <ddameron@earthlink.net>, Tim Vaughan <tv@juno.com>,
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Subject: Spark gap test results...
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Hi All,

I tried today at the university again the hissing sound spark gap
with my Newman coil and the 25 Watts (220 Volts rated) 
incandescent filament lamp in series
at about 620 Volts DC supply voltage.

I found out, that, if one just uses a capacitor instead of
the Newman coil, there is no oscillation and the spark gap
does not work.
One needs a coil (inductance) in this circuit to be able to
get these huge RF current oscillations and that the bulb
is glowing.
Now the question remains:
Is the RF (copped DC) current (about 10 to 15 mA) also flowing inside
the ohmic resistance
of the coil and thus producing ohmic heat losses at this resistance
or not ?

Could be found out probably only, if placing the coil
into a calorimeter and measuring the temperature difference.

Any other ideas ?

As we don´t have a calorimeter here suited for this,
any other method would be favourable !

We also had these negative current spikes, when the
spark gap was hissing, but it depends also, what kind
of scope setting you use. In some amplifier settings
of the scope input channel, the scope seems not to trigger
on these fast negative spikes, so one needs a careful
setting on the scope input channel.
But these negative current spikes are pretty much shorter
and do not have these huge energy (density)areas, as the cutoff sparks,
which occur, when you switch the arc gap manually by pulling off the two
graphite electrodes
every second by hand.

This much for today. I still have a few experiments to run on upcoming
friday
to find out , how I can enhance the sparc gap output in different ways.
Now I am still in the analyse and optimze  state with the spark gap.
I am still looking for a "solid state" circuit to scale up the spark gap
Newman effect to get a bigger electrical output than electrical input.
If I will not suceed in this, I will also try again it together with the
rotating
magnet and will also try to get a bigger mechanical output than
electrical input,
what Jean Louis Naudin achieved, but first I want to study the spark gap
effects
some more.

Regards, Stefan.


--
Hartmann Multimedia Service,  Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
Tel: ++ 49 30-345 00 497  FAX: ++ 49 30-345 00 498
email: harti@harti.com  Web site: http://www.harti.com
http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB !

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 23 18:19:03 1998
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Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 21:20:43 -0500
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Keith Nagel <knagel@cnct.com>
Subject: Re: abstract, please.... First Overunity Results ? with my  
  Newman's , Machine...
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At 08:35 PM 11/22/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Wouldn't the capacitor itself be a very good measurement device? It isn't
>the current itself that one is interested in, but the time integral of it.
>Just run the machine for a short time from a capacitor, and measure the
>voltage change.
>Q=CV.
>If the claims are true that the back current pulses have a net higher charge
>than the foward ones, then the machine would run off an initially charged
>capacitor as an electrical ou generator!!
>-Dave

Based on the published measurements, the device consumes power (~300mW).
So the cap will run down; regardless of it's efficiency. It
is true that measurement of the charge will indicate consumed
power; but it would be more difficult to accurately measure this
than to use the current sense resistor as I described. The
claim of J.'s is that the motor is putting out more mechanical
power than it is consuming in electrical power; no mechanism
was presented for capturing the back EMF.

K.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 23 18:29:19 1998
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Subject: Re: Thanks...
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Hi.

I appreciate the time and effort you expend on these experiments;
and I'm happy you see these discussions as constructive. My only
real advice (for what it's worth) is that you are headed in
the right direction with the spark gap. Study that. There's a
world of remarkable things going on in it.

Good Luck! 

K.


>Thank you very much for all your helpfull comments about my first test
>results. This will help me to go further in this way and thus will improve my
>current measurement method for the next tests.
>
>Today, I can say that the Neman's machine give me always some interesting
>results, the tuning is not also simple that a conventional machine. The Tests
>phase is not yet finished, more accurate measurements need to be conducted
>again. 
>Now, my main purpose is to magnify the main "overunity effect ( ? )" and by
>this way, to find the exact location of this weird phenomenon.
>
>Thanks to all for your support and for all your many encouraments that you
>have sent to me .
>All positive and constructive comments are always welcome.
>
>Best Regards,
>
>Jean-Louis Naudin


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 23 18:35:02 1998
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mrand@access wrote:
> 
> Bob Shannon wrote:
> 
>  Hi Bob,
> <snip>
> 
> >Yes, I saw that.  But still, we do know that there are no rotating
> >magnetic
> >fields between the plates of a charged capacitor!
> 
> What did you think of Charles Yosts' experiments in the ESJ Issue #18 '96
> article "Electrostatic Force Experiments" that seems to indicate a changing
> magnetic intensity between the cicular magnetic plates?
> 
> Quote: 'Jefimenko points out, in accordance with Maxwell's theory, that the
> magnet field is circular and perpendicular to the longitudinal direction of
> the E-field oscillation.'
> 
> Regards,   Michael Randall

Maxwell is quite correct of course.  This describes a circular magnetic
field
around (prependicular to) the axis of the E field.

But a rotating magnetic field is a more complex thing.  It is not simple
a loop of magnetic flux around an E field, but such a ring of flux
undergoing rotation.  This of course opens up all manner of magnetic
induction effects, etc.

This is not the condition between the plates of a capacitor during
charge or discharge.

Maybe this is only a semantic difference to the original post, but if so
this was
not clear to me at that time.  But all that aside, even if the magnetic
field component between the plates were circular, rotating, or whatever,
how could this form an over unity device?

What would exempt this type of device from the know laws of induction? 
Why O/U?

I had thought from the original post that the 'rotating' part might
address this question.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 23 18:54:49 1998
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Fred Epps wrote:
> 
> Hi John,
> 
> I am pretty familiar with the biological and psychological effects of
> the natural ELF freqs from 60 Hz and below (basically including the
> geomagnetic pulsations of less than 1 Hz to about 10 Hz, and the
> Schumann resonances of 7 to 33 Hz).

I've just read a reference to NASA having developed a Shuman Simulator
for
space flight!!!!  I'll follow this up with the author once he's back in 
England.  The reference is in the article:

Scalar Fields, Subtle Energy and the Multidimensional Universe, by Roger
Taylor.  This article appeared in the Autumn 1991 publication
'CADUCEUS'.

> It is known for instance that the worldwide average power spectrum of
> the schumann resonances is almost exactly the same as the average power
> spectrum of the human EEG.

What is interesting here, is that measurments show that healers and 
shamans and yogi's have been measured, and found to 'lock onto' the
actual
schuman signal while in their 'special states'.  We all have the same 
frequencies, but they actually 'lock on' to the same attractor as the
schuman 
signals.

> Do you know of any studies you can point me to that have been done on
> the biological or psychological effects (if any) of the other categories
> of higher frequency signals?

Some studies of new 'biofield' sensors show wide band signals well un
into the
kilohertz range.  EMG signals run into the hundreds of hertz, so this is
not
a big leap to think that the effect of external signals may also extend
well
up the frequency spectrum.

Some UHF frequencies have long been associated with psychotronic
transmissions,
the so-called 'window frequencies in the low 400 mhz band.  I'm sure
that there
are many others as well.

> Since humans have evolved in the presence of all these various signals I
> am wondering if there are specific effects from each of the different
> types.
> For instance, as a random example, what would happen to a person who was
> sitting in a room where a recording of whistlers was being played back
> through an antenna?

Hehehehe.   Weird stuff Fred.

> I seem to remember something about brain waves in the 300 Hz range but I
> can't place the ref...

Oh yes, its just that the amplitude gets lower as F goes up, but there
is
energy there.

My take on Whistlers is that they are the calls made by Sprites and
Jets, calling
to Elfs.  There is a whole energetic ecosphere coexisting with our
reality.

I'll wager that more than a few Astral Travelers are very familiar with
Sprites, the giant jellyfish-like entities found in the 'closer' levels.

The Dawn Chorus is quite like Whale song, and the rebroadcasted effects
are very
similar to that of a person first hearding Whale song.  If you dont know
why your
getting this perception, its profoundly distrubing.

If you know why, you simply wish you were able to watch these
'electrical beings' go about their business.

Everyone should go to the Natural Radio web site, and download the audio
clips found there.  Listen to them with the GRAM412 (or whatever version
it is) also found there.

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>The guy lives a couple of hours from me and my friend goes to see him. He
has >an EXTREMELY high sensitivity to fields and vibes of all sorts. He does
healing >work. He developed the machines using his higher perceptual
abilities.

I recall hearing about a woman that lives near washington that is very
receptive to the schumann resonance, she pukes or gets a headache when a
volcanoe or earthquake is about to hit. Apparently she cannot block the 8 hz
or so signals causing this damage to her body, she claims NASA and many
flight agencies use her.  This interests me because we have a field reversal
that is going to happen with the sun and I wonder how that is going to
affect us mentally or physically if at all.



>I would like to be able to see these various energies and fields so that I
can >work with them more directly. I am looking for tools to increase
perception.

I agree it seems logical that through manipulation of already naturally
occuring phenomena by enhancing them with man made tools- we can reach new
grounds, but I would rather someone else be the guinea pig, you get the
frequencies and some replicated data and I am behind you 100%.  Which
frequencis do what, stimulate wehat, transmit what, etc etc.  I HEAR lots of
theories, but when looking for true research and replicated results it all
seems to be idle speculation.

> Let me know if you have any references to such. I have Barbara Ann
Brennan's >books "Hands of Light" and "Light Emerging".
>
>Quartz and other minerals definitely alter or convert the energies to be
usable by the body.

Do you have scientific references, published articles, replicated data you
can PROVE this with?



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>Making an antenna active to increase its effective
>>cross section is an excellent trick, although the FCC frowns
>>on the commercial use of such receivers.
>
>And Sutton suggested that Tesla was running his car off atmospheric
>power tapped this way. I doubt it,

Why do you doubt it?  Specifics please.

 but I have made a collection of weird
>gadgets that might have potential for that. 

What are they please?

 The Britten patent is very
>interesting.  He put DC from a battery through his antenna and got
>improved reception-- could be a near field electrostatic effect, sort of
>like increasing the cross section of the antenna with a static field
>instead of the Sutton idea.  In addition there is a strange phone hacker
>box called the Mauve Box that I think might have some appication here.
>Do a search for Mauve Box and you will find it.


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 23 20:37:09 1998
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So solar winds have a way of controlling mass consciousness then?  What data
can be correlated to differing periods in the suns ejection of solar
material, say during magnetic reversals?

>>As Tesla pointed out, the schumann type resonances are caused by
>>the finite size and shape of the earth and ionosphere.
>
>Yes, that is true, the frequencies are detemined by the size of the
>earth, but what I was mentioning that hasn't been discussed much is that
>a lot of the energy that is determining the amplitude of the resonances
>is coming not from lightning but from solar winds "flapping" the
>magnetophere, and this vibration pumping energy into the ionosphere. I
>haven't seen this mentioned anywhere but in the scholarly book "The
>Schumann Resonance" (forgot the author's name).


>>It has often been pointed out that the schumann resonances
>>are in the range of human brain activity; in fact the primary
>>7.5hz one is right on the alpha state.


What could happen if this frequency is interefered with?

>Yes, you can overlay a chart of the resonances and a chart of the
>average EEG power spectrum and they line up pretty close.
>
>Yes, there is a natural 60 Hz resonance, which is why Tesla picked it
>for his AC line freq, I think. Unfortunately, now the whole atmospheric
>electrical circuit is being driven by this freq with unknown
>consequences.


What do you think could be possible problems?



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What could be carried on this signal?

>What is interesting here, is that measurments show that healers and 
>shamans and yogi's have been measured, and found to 'lock onto' the
>actual
>schuman signal while in their 'special states'.  We all have the same 
>frequencies, but they actually 'lock on' to the same attractor as the
>schuman 
>signals.




>Some UHF frequencies have long been associated with psychotronic
>transmissions,
>the so-called 'window frequencies in the low 400 mhz band.  I'm sure
>that there
>are many others as well.
>


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 23 20:37:13 1998
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I will search for the book and see what I can find, thanks.  Do you
perchance recall the credentials of the author?

>Yes, this was from a book called "Schumann Resonances" or maybe "THE
>Schumann Resonances" that I got out of the library.  I've forgotten the
>authors. It should be available in a college library. Its out of print
>now, but it is the standard reference work on the subject.
>>
>>>  It is known
>>>that suicide rates go up at the beginning of magnetic storms and this
>>>may be part of the chain of causation.
>>
>>Who is it known by, I need references?  Very interesting but I would
>like to
>>actually read about the scientific studies that unearthed these
>>correlations.
>
>To quote from a web site that referrs to this research:
>
>Change of geomagnetic activity can influence among the others: the
>mental activity, psychic state and health . Major changes of geomagnetic
>activity is related to solar activity which long-term variations is held
>in 11 year - solar cycles.

What is the website please?
Are there any other cycles that may have a long reaching effect and be able
to touch us here on the earth other than the magnetic reversal of the sun,
it seems man has cycles that are far wider than 11 years, perhaps these can
be correlated too

The diurnal variations in geomagnetic
>activity called geomagnetic storms influence psychological state.
>According to Persinger's research during the geomagnetic storms the rate
>of sudden death increases.

Who is Persinger?  I would like to do a personal study and as scientifically
as possible try to see what differeing sun phenomena correlate to my own
personal feelings during the day - days I am happy - or sad, increased solar
activity that day that my side of the planet is pointing to or not.

 He proved that these storms could cause some
>percent sudden death.

Well take it to the next logical level, hearts beat at certain frequencies -
interfere with them hearts stop beating, do it wirelessly, and you have an
ultimate military weapon.  Was it cardiac arrest for the sudden deaths?

. Stonel from Israel analyzed during the
>consecutive months of the year , the relationship between geomagnetic
>activity changing and suicides rates or myocardial infarcts.

Who is Stonel, this seems very interesting.

>This is not a quote from the original docs, but it gives the flavor of
>the results. Again, I am not actively studying this field right now

Lose interest?

so I
>don't have my hands on the original papers.
>I understand that this doesn't prove anything, but I beleive that at
>least four studies ahve been done that indicate a connection here.  I
>will look around for more details.

Please do, if high rate of solar activity is shown to be the cause of
thousands of heart attacks a day - the medical savings alone could justify
further research.

>"The Geomagnetic field and Life" by A.N. Dubrov gives numerous
>references that show that periods in human cultural change are
>correlated with shifts in the earth's magnetic field. Good luck on
>finding it, though.
>I strongly recommmend that you find the biggest college library you can
>find to dig into this stuff.  The net will not do the job.  It is out
>there.  I will help where I can.

Thanks.


>>>The Schumann resonances despite the immensely long wavlength are very
>>>bioactive.  There is good evidence to indicate that the daily
>>
>>What evidence, who found it, where is it published, thanks.
>
>TONS of information available there.  Look in any recent book on
>circadian cycles, melatonin metabolism, pineal function, or EM effects
>on life.
>It has been established since the 70's that a 10 Hz magnetic or electric
>pulse will stabilize the length of the diurnal cycle of people in sealed
>rooms with no access to sunlight. If the pulse is not present the cycle
>gets more and more out of whack, if it is present the cycle stays at
>about 24 hours.


Thanks.

>>However how does one block an 8hz frequency?
>
>You wouldn't want to, it is benficial.

I hear of people that are far too sensitive to this particular frequency
though and it destroys their normal life though.

 The ones that are a problem are
>the 60 Hz, but if the 8-10 Hz are reinforced then the 60 Hz becomes less
>of a problem.
>
>Sorry I can't give you more detailed refs, I will be able to look them
>up after a while, the problem is that I read so much that sources get
>lost.  I went through a period about a year ago when I was wading in
>this stuff and it sunk in, but the specific refs are lost in some cases.


Thanks.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 23 21:23:12 1998
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Subject: Whistlers, and the ones who whistle
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On Mon, 23 Nov 1998, Bob Shannon wrote:

> My take on Whistlers is that they are the calls made by Sprites and
> Jets, calling
> to Elfs.  There is a whole energetic ecosphere coexisting with our
> reality.
> 
> I'll wager that more than a few Astral Travelers are very familiar with
> Sprites, the giant jellyfish-like entities found in the 'closer' levels.

Recently I heard a little about sprites/jets from a person who wanted to
look into the possibility that some of the shapes of those plasma
discharges...  are not shapes of the plasma discharge at all, but instead
are pre-existing forms in the high atmosphere above the storms.  The
plasma discharges would act to 'illuminate' them and make them visible. He
was actually suggesting something akin to ionospheric 'weather' patterns,
not living organisms, but you never know what you might find when you look
in a place where nobody has ever looked before.  Take the lessons of the
oceanic abyss seriously: wherever there are energy gradients, life usually
figures out a way to "infect" those niches.  What if the ionosphere is not
sterile desert?

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb@eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 23 23:08:36 1998
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Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 23:14:46 -0600
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Wilhelm Reich, I believe, thought along these lines also....


> not living organisms, but you never know what you might find when you look
> in a place where nobody has ever looked before.  Take the lessons of the
> oceanic abyss seriously: wherever there are energy gradients, life usually
> figures out a way to "infect" those niches.  What if the ionosphere is not
> sterile desert?
> 
> ((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
> William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> billb@eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
> Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

-- 
We must accept the truth, 
even if it changes our 
point of view. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Don J. S. Adams
Managing Consultant
Microsoft
Main Campus, Bldg 1
Redmond, WA
USA

425-882-3431	USA
403-998-4066	Canada

http://www.intergate.bc.ca/business/rave

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 23 23:32:43 1998
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Hi Tim,
>
>Is there any documentation available on these mysterious
>Zinsser effects and experiments ?


Yes, there is, not much on the net though.  I have two articles, only
one of which has good info. I can send it to a website that wants to
post it. It's called "On Kinetobaric Effects and Bioinformational
Transfer By Electromagnetic Fields" By Walter Peschka. "Kinetobaric" is
another name for the same effect.

On the net:

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~haspdn/le05ap2.htm

"Concerning Zinsser I cannot vouch in any way for the authenticity of
what he claimed, but I think it appropriate to refer here to some
comments I quote from a book by Thomas F. Valone entitled 'The Homopolar
Handbook', published by Integrity Research Institute, 1377 K Street NW,
Syuite 204, Washington, DC 20005.. This book is dated 1994, but it
includes on pp. 74-75 an account of a meeting between Valone and Zinsser
in Hanover, Germany in 1980. The report there published had appeared
earlier in 'Energy Unlimited', No. 9, publisher's address: Rt. 4, Box
288, Los Lunas, NM 87031, USA.'

Valone's remarks read: "At dinner, Adam Trombly and I were interrupted
by Dr. Nieper re-introducing Rudolph Zinsser as the foremost German
expert on gravitation. Then the friendly, white-haired Zinsser began to
describe his 10 years of research to us as I reached for my tape
recorder. There was an excitement in the air as Adam and I struggled to
comprehend Dr. Zinsser's patented pulse generator (US Patent No.
4,085,384) causing an unprecented 3 to 5 hour force from a brief
'activation' of only 90 seconds. We were shown a 6-inch plexiglas
cylinder with two aluminium plates inside submerged in a water
dielectric. He described the small activator in front of us energizing
an object suspended in a vacuum.

Dr. Zinsser showed us graphs recording the angle of deflection of the
object which was labelled in terms of force. A maximum of 8 dynes
manifested within 1/4 hour of activation, slowly dropping to zero about
5 hours later. He said everything could be scaled upwards without
difficulty. In comparing the impulse delivered to power input, he said
that it was at least 10,000 times the ratio obtained from chemical
rockets (based on Dr. Peschka's analysis). I am really glad I met
Rudolph Zinsser who certainly destroyed my conventional notions of force
and energy."

Fred





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Hi,


>I will search for the book and see what I can find, thanks.  Do you
>perchance recall the credentials of the author?

Lots of good initials :-)
>

>>
>>To quote from a web site that referrs to this research:
>>
>>Change of geomagnetic activity can influence among the others: the
>>mental activity, psychic state and health . Major changes of
geomagnetic
>>activity is related to solar activity which long-term variations is
held
>>in 11 year - solar cycles.
>
>What is the website please?

The site had nothing on it about this subject other than this, it was
part of a resume..

>Are there any other cycles that may have a long reaching effect and be
able
>to touch us here on the earth other than the magnetic reversal of the
sun,
>it seems man has cycles that are far wider than 11 years, perhaps these
can
>be correlated too
>
>The diurnal variations in geomagnetic
>>activity called geomagnetic storms influence psychological state.
>>According to Persinger's research during the geomagnetic storms the
rate
>>of sudden death increases.
>
>Who is Persinger?

Michael Persinger is a major and controversial researcher of effects of
EM fields on biological systems.  Here is some (biased) info about his
work:

http://www.fringeware.com/~hambone/web/persinger.html


 I would like to do a personal study and as scientifically
>as possible try to see what differeing sun phenomena correlate to my
own
>personal feelings during the day - days I am happy - or sad, increased
solar
>activity that day that my side of the planet is pointing to or not.

Its a good idea.  Here's a link site with plenty of daily solar
information sites:

http://www.mtwilson.edu/Tour/150ft/index.html

>
> He proved that these storms could cause some
>>percent sudden death.
>
>Well take it to the next logical level, hearts beat at certain
frequencies -
>interfere with them hearts stop beating, do it wirelessly, and you have
an
>ultimate military weapon.

Gee, I wonder if they've thought of that? :-/

 Was it cardiac arrest for the sudden deaths?
 Stonel from Israel analyzed during the
>>consecutive months of the year , the relationship between geomagnetic
>>activity changing and suicides rates or myocardial infarcts.
>Who is Stonel, this seems very interesting.

I have looke at these papers before but not recently. I suggest you go
to a U library and do INSPEC and MEDLINE searches for ELF effects on
biological systems. You will find plenty, the field has mushroomed since
the controversy over exposure to power line ELF.
>
>>This is not a quote from the original docs, but it gives the flavor of
>>the results. Again, I am not actively studying this field right now
>
>Lose interest?

No, too many irons in the fire.
>


>
>Please do, if high rate of solar activity is shown to be the cause of
>thousands of heart attacks a day - the medical savings alone could
justify
>further research.

Well, a statistical effect is not cause for making big changes.  It has
to be seen in the context of other factors of course. For instance,
while researching some health problems of a friend I found that 60% of
hospital admissions had magnsium deficiencies. (This is of course a
skewed sample) This would have a great effect on the heart muscle since
it needs Mg to pump, I guess.


>
>>>However how does one block an 8hz frequency?
>>
>>You wouldn't want to, it is benficial.
>
>I hear of people that are far too sensitive to this particular
frequency
>though and it destroys their normal life though.

Must be that very small group of people who are earthquake sensitive, I
guess.  Most people experience benefits from a freq which is after al
ltheir own brain wave freq. 10 Hz is used routinely in various devices
for relazation and bone growth stimulation.

Fred
>


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov 24 00:35:19 1998
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Subject: Re: Whistlers, and the ones who whistle
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>Wilhelm Reich, I believe, thought along these lines also....

The big book on this subject is "Sky Creatures:Living UFOs" by Trevor
Constable, earlier published as "The Cosmic Pulse Of Life".  This is a
groundbreaking book and is essential reading for its discussion of the
philosphies of Reich and Steiner applied to almost every subject of
interest to alternative science people. It's available from Borderland
Sciences:

http://www.borderlands.com/catalog/trevor/cosmic.htm

No I am not associated with Borderland, it's just a good book :-)

It should be pointed out that his creatures were in the troposphere not
the ionosphere.

Fred


>
>
>> not living organisms, but you never know what you might find when you
look
>> in a place where nobody has ever looked before.  Take the lessons of
the
>> oceanic abyss seriously: wherever there are energy gradients, life
usually
>> figures out a way to "infect" those niches.  What if the ionosphere
is not
>> sterile desert?


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov 24 00:35:25 1998
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From: "Fred Epps" <fepps@halcyon.com>
To: "Bill Wallace" <btech@surfsouth.com>, <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Whistlers
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Hi Bill,
>>
>>And Sutton suggested that Tesla was running his car off atmospheric
>>power tapped this way. I doubt it,
>
>Why do you doubt it?  Specifics please.

I base my opinion first on the fact that the existence of the car itself
is a little questionable.  Despite many legends there is no real
evidence that I know of that Tesla actually had a working FE device.  I
would be interested to hear from someone who can show otherwise.
Secondly the 60 Hz power density is very low, the antenna would have to
have an effective area of maybe hundred or thousands of miles to get
enough energy to run anything. Only 20 cars per planet :-) Third, Tesla
himself explains his proposed free energy devices in terms of ultra-tiny
cosmic particles rather than waves. He has a patent, I forgot the
number, which is a sheet of metal coated with an insulator and suspended
above the ground, this is grounded through a spark gap and a load.  He
claims that this will generate useful power from these particles. AFAIK,
nobody has succeeded in getting any useful power form this design.
Again, I would like to hear anything to the contrary.
>
> but I have made a collection of weird
>>gadgets that might have potential for that.
>
>What are they please?

Too many to mention in one post :-)

Take a look at the the patent list on Greg Watsons site for some of
them:

http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson/patents.html

Fred

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov 24 01:07:08 1998
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Subject: Re: Whistlers
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Hi Bob,
>
>> I am pretty familiar with the biological and psychological effects of
>> the natural ELF freqs from 60 Hz and below (basically including the
>> geomagnetic pulsations of less than 1 Hz to about 10 Hz, and the
>> Schumann resonances of 7 to 33 Hz).
>
>I've just read a reference to NASA having developed a Shuman Simulator
>for
>space flight!!!!

I wonder if we can get that schematic from a NASA tech brief.

 I'll follow this up with the author once he's back in
>England.  The reference is in the article:
>
>Scalar Fields, Subtle Energy and the Multidimensional Universe, by
Roger
>Taylor.  This article appeared in the Autumn 1991 publication
>'CADUCEUS'.

Sounds VERY interesting, do you have a copy?
And what is this periodical? Never heard of it...
>
>> It is known for instance that the worldwide average power spectrum of
>> the schumann resonances is almost exactly the same as the average
power
>> spectrum of the human EEG.
>
>What is interesting here, is that measurments show that healers and
>shamans and yogi's have been measured, and found to 'lock onto' the
>actual
>schuman signal while in their 'special states'.  We all have the same
>frequencies, but they actually 'lock on' to the same attractor as the
>schuman
>signals.

Are they actually "in phase" with the local schumann signals?
>
>Some studies of new 'biofield' sensors show wide band signals well un
>into the
>kilohertz range.

Yes, I know that there are all sorts of energies emitted by the body,
like visible light, but I hadn't heard of any brain waves of these high
freqs, this would be especially signicant for human consciousness if so.
"My brain runs at 300 MHz, what about yours?" ;-)

 EMG signals run into the hundreds of hertz, so this is
>not
>a big leap to think that the effect of external signals may also extend
>well
>up the frequency spectrum.

Yes that is what Iwas thinknig in analogy with the schumann/brain wave
connection, maybe there is a connection with each band of natural waves,
all the way up.. wonder if there is a chart in some book that shows the
entire power spectrum of what energy is hitting the earth?
>
>Some UHF frequencies have long been associated with psychotronic
>transmissions,
>the so-called 'window frequencies in the low 400 mhz band.  I'm sure
>that there
>are many others as well.

I know that the gov has done considerable experimentation with
modulating microwaves with bioactive frequencies, is this related to
that?
>
>Hehehehe.   Weird stuff Fred.

My specialty ;-)
>
>> I seem to remember something about brain waves in the 300 Hz range
but I
>> can't place the ref...
>
>Oh yes, its just that the amplitude gets lower as F goes up, but there
>is
>energy there.

Oh, I was thinking of an actual peak somewhere up there...I know very
little about it.

>
>The Dawn Chorus is quite like Whale song, and the rebroadcasted effects
>are very
>similar to that of a person first hearding Whale song.  If you dont
know
>why your
>getting this perception, its profoundly distrubing.

If the waveforms themselves are psychoactive then it certainly would be,
something that our bodies have always "heard" through the magnetosensors
and electrosensors suddenly made audible..
>
>If you know why, you simply wish you were able to watch these
>'electrical beings' go about their business.

A very beautiful intuition that may well be the reality.
>
>Everyone should go to the Natural Radio web site, and download the
audio
>clips found there.  Listen to them with the GRAM412 (or whatever
version
>it is) also found there.

OK, will do, thanks for the tip.

Fred


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov 24 02:21:44 1998
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From: MATTIARO@aol.com
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Hi!
  The only reason that a DC voltage in an antenna would improve the reception
is if the first RF amplifier is not biased correctly.  Just remember that it
was a "day" of the tubes.  Valves, if you are Brittish.  :-)

Matti

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov 24 02:27:06 1998
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Hi Matti!

>  The only reason that a DC voltage in an antenna would improve the
reception
>is if the first RF amplifier is not biased correctly.  Just remember
that it
>was a "day" of the tubes.  Valves, if you are Brittish.  :-)

True, it was hooked up to a standard receiver of the time with B
batteries and all, but the situation was a little stranger than that.
You see, soon after this patent was issued, he began running his house
off of some variation of the patented circuit :-)

Fred

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov 24 03:43:52 1998
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From: "Bill Wallace" <btech@surfsouth.com>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Whistlers
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>>I will search for the book and see what I can find, thanks.  Do you
>>perchance recall the credentials of the author?
>
>Lots of good initials :-)


HA!

>Michael Persinger is a major and controversial researcher of effects of
>EM fields on biological systems.  Here is some (biased) info about his
>work:
>
>http://www.fringeware.com/~hambone/web/persinger.html


Thanks.

>Well, a statistical effect is not cause for making big changes.  It has
>to be seen in the context of other factors of course. For instance,
>while researching some health problems of a friend I found that 60% of
>hospital admissions had magnsium deficiencies. (This is of course a
>skewed sample) This would have a great effect on the heart muscle since
>it needs Mg to pump, I guess.

Yes, I have seen data that magnesium enriched water can truly be a life
saver and magnesium deficiency is killing many every year through heart
problems.



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov 24 03:54:29 1998
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>http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson/patents.html
>


When I try to access brittens patent from this link I get nothing.

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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Wonder if anybody's working with this.  Supposedly the coil has zero =
impedance which might suggest its use in an overunity device.
Going further afield, the model for the winding is much more than the =
symbol for medicine.  In ancient hindu mysticism it is a map of the =
human psyche, with one spiral called the Ida and the other Pingala.  =
These are said to lie adjacent to the spinal column, and are associated =
with the Chakras and Kundalini energy.
Then again, we have the DNA/RNA molecules, which have the same =
configuration.
Has anyone ever built a caduceus coil big enough to stand inside of, and =
sent ELF
energy into it?--and not had the subject show up at Norfolk Naval Base?
Just wondering if anybody is working along these llines...

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BE178A.0978F400
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Wonder if anybody's working with =
this.&nbsp;=20
Supposedly the coil has zero impedance which might suggest its use in an =

overunity device.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Going further afield, the model for =
the winding=20
is much more than the symbol for medicine.&nbsp; In ancient hindu =
mysticism it=20
is a map of the human psyche, with one spiral called the Ida and the =
other=20
Pingala.&nbsp; These are said to lie adjacent to the spinal column, and =
are=20
associated with the Chakras and Kundalini energy.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Then again, we have the DNA/RNA =
molecules, which=20
have the same configuration.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Has anyone ever built a caduceus =
coil big enough=20
to stand inside of, and sent ELF</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>energy into it?--and not had the =
subject show up=20
at Norfolk Naval Base?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Just wondering if anybody is working =
along these=20
llines...</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BE178A.0978F400--

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Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:47:37 -0800
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Subject: Re: self-recharging electric engine--Check it out!!
References: <TFSLCQMB@scigen.co.uk>
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> Anyone have any comments on this device by Douglas L Konzen found at http://members.wbs.net/homepages/e/n/z/enzok.html
> it looks interesting.
> 


Looks like someone is just messing around!!!  I will construct one and
report my findings. Before that, I would like for some others to comment
on this device please...

Anyone????

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov 24 17:18:10 1998
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Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 20:05:24 -0800
From: Bob Shannon <bshannon@tiac.net>
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mrand@access wrote:
> 
> Hi Fred!
> <snip good observations!>
> 
> >I suggest it does, in the following devices:
> 
> What do you think of John Hutchison's "Hutchison" device?  John used only HF
> equipment without any spark-gap for unconventional matter/energy anomilies.
> Would it fall under the Ampere Force Law  :-)

Actually, John Hutchinson used a wide variety of devices, including
Tesla Coils.
 
> Maybe John Hutchisons' work will be reproduced by other researchers.

ALso potentially important is the fact that Hutchison was able to
reproduce many
of his effects WITHOUT equipment of any form!

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov 24 17:56:10 1998
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Bill Wallace wrote:
> 
> What could be carried on this signal?
> 
> >What is interesting here, is that measurments show that healers and
> >shamans and yogi's have been measured, and found to 'lock onto' the
> >actual
> >schuman signal while in their 'special states'.  We all have the same
> >frequencies, but they actually 'lock on' to the same attractor as the
> >schuman
> >signals.

I'm assuming your talking about the existing Schuman signal, is this
correct?

If so, the suggestion that persons who 'lock onto' this signal seem to
have
abilities we cannot easily understand.

So whatever is 'carried' on this signal may in some way effect that
persons
relationship with reality in a way we do not current understand.  Such
an effect
would need some form of macroscopic quantum-like effects that are not
part
of conventional physics.
 
> >Some UHF frequencies have long been associated with psychotronic
> >transmissions,
> >the so-called 'window frequencies in the low 400 mhz band.  I'm sure
> >that there
> >are many others as well.

If you are refering to these artificial psychotronic signals, then your
looking for a slightly different answer.

Assuming that the phenomena above (people having 'special' abilities
when
they are 'in phase' with the Schuman signals) is real, then generating
artificial signals of this type could have similar effects.

The differnce being that artificial signals can be used on anyone, while
the real thing (actual Schuman signals) seems to be reserved for
'special' people.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov 24 18:00:37 1998
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Bill Wallace wrote:
> 
> So solar winds have a way of controlling mass consciousness then?  What data
> can be correlated to differing periods in the suns ejection of solar
> material, say during magnetic reversals?

Oh yes, Eskimo legends are FULL of stories that can easily be
interpreted
as telling tales of psychotronic effects during solar activity!
 
<snip>

> What could happen if this frequency is interefered with?

The state of the world today?

It is interfere with, just try to measure it!

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov 24 21:18:47 1998
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Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 00:17:49 -0500
To: rife-list@eskimo.com, Rifers@Majordomo.net, freenrg-l@eskimo.com,
        KeelyNet@DallasTexas.net, "Kurush K Mistry" <kmistry@execulink.com>,
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Subject: Freeware Frequency Counter
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http://web.arca.net/top/gener.htm

Then click onto 'counter.exex' and rename the file as fcounter.exe before
saving it. You might also want to first create a folder just for it called
Counter, and then save fcounter.exe into it. Afterwards then go into that
folder and double click onto that file to unzip it into your computer.
After unzipping it then double click onto its icon (or counter.exe) to use
it. It will show you the frequency you put into the computer at the
microphone jack (with a 3.5mm mono plug). Just buy one at Radio Shack (in
the USA) or any electronics parts house, plug it into the mic jack (if your
computer has one), and the signal source.

Chris Gupta

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov 24 21:31:39 1998
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To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 09:30:21 -0800
Subject: Real Impulse Drive ?
Message-ID: <19981125.093027.3470.1.tv@juno.com>
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If you are interested in the possibility of a real space drive or
inertial propulsion check out this web page:

http://chaos.fullerton.edu/~jimw/nasa-pap/

If this is really works and you can borrow momentum from the vacuum, why
not energy as well ?

Tim

( tv@juno.com )

___________________________________________________________________
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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov 24 22:30:24 1998
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Subject: Re: Real Impulse Drive ?
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Tim -

If it really works, you're just pushing or pulling on distant galaxies.
Neat, but no more free energy than pushing or pulling on anything which has
inertia. It costs energy. Upside is that if it is engineerable into a
useful drive: Martian colonies, this lifetime. (Mars is no place to raise
your kids, though.)

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov 24 22:42:17 1998
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To: "R. A. Davis" <rad205@desupernet.net>, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: dave dameron <ddameron@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re:  Caduceus Coil
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Hi all,
At 09:08 AM 11/24/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Wonder if anybody's working with this.  Supposedly the coil has zero
impedance which might suggest its use in an overunity device.
>Going further afield, the model for the winding is much more than the
symbol for medicine.  In ancient hindu mysticism it is a map of the human
psyche, with one spiral called the Ida and the other Pingala.  These are
said to lie adjacent to the spinal column, and are associated with the
Chakras and Kundalini energy.
>Then again, we have the DNA/RNA molecules, which have the same configuration.
>Has anyone ever built a caduceus coil big enough to stand inside of

In my opinion, I think most of the claims for a caduceus coil such as
described in:

http://www.newphys.se/elektromagnum/physics/KeelyNet/energy/caduceus.asc

are not true. Why?? As wired, it doesn't do what is claimed.
Take a normal solenoid coil wound from a single length of wire, but in 2
layers. The start and end of the windings are at the same end. The magnetic
fields of the 2 layers ADD, the currents rotate in the same direction in
both layers. However, the individual turns do not lie exactly on top of each
other or are parallel. One layer is wound as a left-hand helix, while the
other is a right-hand helix, so the turns of the 2 layers cross. You can
wind a simple one yourself if it isn't clear. 

Thus a caduceus coil as described above is just an 2 layer solenoid with the
turns spaced. It has inductance for example. I think the characteristics
could be better described to a 4 lead "caduceus" coil, currents opposed, or
an opposing bifilar coil.

I also think this is the wrong symbol for medicine. It was originally one
serpent, maybe from Moses and the bronze serpent. 2 winged serpents were the
symbol of mercury, the god of commerce...

-Dave



 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Nov 24 22:43:10 1998
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CHRIS!  I LOVE IT!!!!  Thanks man!

:)

mbgupta@julian.uwo.ca wrote:
> 
> http://web.arca.net/top/gener.htm
> 
> Then click onto 'counter.exex' and rename the file as fcounter.exe before
> saving it. You might also want to first create a folder just for it called
> Counter, and then save fcounter.exe into it. Afterwards then go into that
> folder and double click onto that file to unzip it into your computer.
> After unzipping it then double click onto its icon (or counter.exe) to use
> it. It will show you the frequency you put into the computer at the
> microphone jack (with a 3.5mm mono plug). Just buy one at Radio Shack (in
> the USA) or any electronics parts house, plug it into the mic jack (if your
> computer has one), and the signal source.
> 
> Chris Gupta

-- 
We must accept the truth, 
even if it changes our 
point of view. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Don J. S. Adams
Managing Consultant
Microsoft
Main Campus, Bldg 1
Redmond, WA
USA

425-882-3431	USA
403-998-4066	Canada

http://www.intergate.bc.ca/business/rave

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Fred,
thanks for the tip, will check it out!  ;)

Fred Epps wrote:
> 
> >Wilhelm Reich, I believe, thought along these lines also....
> 
> The big book on this subject is "Sky Creatures:Living UFOs" by Trevor
> Constable, earlier published as "The Cosmic Pulse Of Life".  This is a
> groundbreaking book and is essential reading for its discussion of the
> philosphies of Reich and Steiner applied to almost every subject of
> interest to alternative science people. It's available from Borderland
> Sciences:
> 
> http://www.borderlands.com/catalog/trevor/cosmic.htm
> 
> No I am not associated with Borderland, it's just a good book :-)
> 
> It should be pointed out that his creatures were in the troposphere not
> the ionosphere.
> 
> Fred
> 
> >
> >
> >> not living organisms, but you never know what you might find when you
> look
> >> in a place where nobody has ever looked before.  Take the lessons of
> the
> >> oceanic abyss seriously: wherever there are energy gradients, life
> usually
> >> figures out a way to "infect" those niches.  What if the ionosphere
> is not
> >> sterile desert?

-- 
We must accept the truth, 
even if it changes our 
point of view. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Don J. S. Adams
Managing Consultant
Microsoft
Main Campus, Bldg 1
Redmond, WA
USA

425-882-3431	USA
403-998-4066	Canada

http://www.intergate.bc.ca/business/rave

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On 25/11/98 02:20:13 Paris, Madrid, bshannon@tiac.net wrote :

> ALso potentially important is the fact that Hutchison was able to
>  reproduce many
>  of his effects WITHOUT equipment of any form!
>  
>  

Where is the KEY ?

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 25 07:45:44 1998
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From: "Marcelo Puhl" <mark@plug-in.com.br>
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> 
> I also think this is the wrong symbol for medicine. It was originally one
> serpent, maybe from Moses and the bronze serpent. 2 winged serpents were the
> symbol of mercury, the god of commerce...
> 
> -Dave
> 

According to Zecharia Sitchin on his book "The 12nd Planet", the one serpent 
symbol was the ancient Summerian "God" Enki representation.

That is the oldest known reference of that symbol.

---
Marcelo Puhl
mark@plug-in.com.br


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At 11:25 PM 11/23/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Hi Tim,


If The information is emailed to me I would be happy to put it at my
solaris website
Geoff



>>
>>Is there any documentation available on these mysterious
>>Zinsser effects and experiments ?
>
>
>Yes, there is, not much on the net though.  I have two articles, only
>one of which has good info. I can send it to a website that wants to
>post it. It's called "On Kinetobaric Effects and Bioinformational
>Transfer By Electromagnetic Fields" By Walter Peschka. "Kinetobaric" is
>another name for the same effect.
>
>On the net:
>
>http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~haspdn/le05ap2.htm
>
>"Concerning Zinsser I cannot vouch in any way for the authenticity of
>what he claimed, but I think it appropriate to refer here to some
>comments I quote from a book by Thomas F. Valone entitled 'The Homopolar
>Handbook', published by Integrity Research Institute, 1377 K Street NW,
>Syuite 204, Washington, DC 20005.. This book is dated 1994, but it
>includes on pp. 74-75 an account of a meeting between Valone and Zinsser
>in Hanover, Germany in 1980. The report there published had appeared
>earlier in 'Energy Unlimited', No. 9, publisher's address: Rt. 4, Box
>288, Los Lunas, NM 87031, USA.'
>
>Valone's remarks read: "At dinner, Adam Trombly and I were interrupted
>by Dr. Nieper re-introducing Rudolph Zinsser as the foremost German
>expert on gravitation. Then the friendly, white-haired Zinsser began to
>describe his 10 years of research to us as I reached for my tape
>recorder. There was an excitement in the air as Adam and I struggled to
>comprehend Dr. Zinsser's patented pulse generator (US Patent No.
>4,085,384) causing an unprecented 3 to 5 hour force from a brief
>'activation' of only 90 seconds. We were shown a 6-inch plexiglas
>cylinder with two aluminium plates inside submerged in a water
>dielectric. He described the small activator in front of us energizing
>an object suspended in a vacuum.
>
>Dr. Zinsser showed us graphs recording the angle of deflection of the
>object which was labelled in terms of force. A maximum of 8 dynes
>manifested within 1/4 hour of activation, slowly dropping to zero about
>5 hours later. He said everything could be scaled upwards without
>difficulty. In comparing the impulse delivered to power input, he said
>that it was at least 10,000 times the ratio obtained from chemical
>rockets (based on Dr. Peschka's analysis). I am really glad I met
>Rudolph Zinsser who certainly destroyed my conventional notions of force
>and energy."
>
>Fred
>
>
>
>
>
>

Geoff

http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/1135
Solaris searching for natures energy sources.

Geoff Egel
18 Sturt Street
Loxton 5333
South Australia
Australia

Phone  (08) (8584 5201)
Usually can be reached hereafter  6 pm local time 
(Monday - Saturday)
Central Australian time
others times you cannot be certain of getting me here.

Like to hear from You,  I expect this to apply only to Australian viewers


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 27 11:27:52 1998
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Message-ID: <365F005E.CB487A91@harti.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 20:41:18 +0100
From: Stefan Hartmann <harti@harti.com>
Reply-To: leoguitar@vossnet.de
Organization: Hartmann Multimedia Service
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To: leoguitar@vossnet.de
CC: Tim Vaughan <tv@juno.com>, Motoe Suzuki <motoe@popsvr.tokai.jaeri.go.jp>,
        Jean Louis Naudin <jnaudin509@aol.com>,
        Bob Shannon <bshannon@tiac.net>, dave dameron <ddameron@earthlink.net>,
        Dieter Bauer <bauer_d@FHI-Berlin.MPG.DE>,
        freenrg-l <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>,
        Newman-L Mailing List <newman-l@emachine.com>,
        Evan Soule <josephnewman@earthlink.net>,
        "Sergey M.Godin" <serjio@glasnet.ru>,
        Dave Wenbert <dwenbert@spacey.net>,
        Institute for Basic Research <ibr@gte.net>
Subject: New test results ....AquaFuel produced for the first time...
References: <199811250307.AA00000@motoe.popsvr.tokai.jaeri.go.jp> <365BE46F.FE1B86EC@harti.com> <365EF761.778F8F9E@harti.com>
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Hi All,

today my new test results with the Newman coil
and the spark gap are:

1. AquaFuel could NOT be produced while sticking the 2 
grahite electrodes of the spark gap into normal tap water.

But this way a lot of hydrogen oxygen gas mixture can be produced !
The good point is: As tap water leads the current already enough
with its ions, there is always a good current flowing at about 25 to 26
mA DC at the 600 Volts supply level. (My coil had about 21 KOhm
resistance)

That means, a Newman machine could also be used to generate Hydrogen and
Oxygen gas mixture, when one places in series with the coil the water
electrolysis bath ! :)

I have not yet tried to run the Newman machine with the magnet rotor to
see, if then more gas is produced, cause I had not much time today.

2. I have produced AquaFuel today with a different  method and it is
really
nice to see it work !

I used just a normal power source unit and put it onto about 50 Volts
DC and connected to it 2 wires with graphite electrodes at the end.
Then I put these 2 electrodes in a small transparent plastic box under
tap water
and shorted them !
As soon as I pulled apart the electrodes, there was a big arc inside the
water and
big gas bubble did build up when the arc lightens up.

I could only get some kind of arc oscillation, cause my DC power source
did
limit the current to about 1 Ampere during shorting.

When the lightning arc aoppeared, there was always some  "bang" noise
and
it seems Hydrogen and Oxygen gas mixture is "exploding" under water and
a bright lightning appears.
Also the water gets pretty fast hot, so there is a lot of energy
delivered by this process ! Also the bubble gas building
is some kind of Methan (Hydrogen-Carbon product) which can be burned
and these gas bubles are a lot more than the normal Hydrogen and Oxygen
gas production, which occurs, when the electrodes are still away from
each other.

AquaFuel seems to be a nice way to generate hot water and burnable gas
and also have a light source. The only disadvantage is:
You burn pretty quickly your carbon electrodes and the water solution
becomes a thick "water-carbon-slime"...! Maybe I still had the wrong
electrodes
material....But anyway, it is an interesting experiment to watch and
feel the arc lighting under water and generate all this huge ammount 
of burnable gas ! :)


3. My other spark gap- Newman coil tests today were inconclusive
and I have to repeat them on Monday to see, if I can get the Newman
coil generate OU output power without the magnet....
But I guess the coil just has too much ohmic resistance, so there are
too many losses to get it working without a magnet...

More to come on Monday.

Regards, Stefan.


--
Hartmann Multimedia Service,  Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
Tel: ++ 49 30-345 00 497  FAX: ++ 49 30-345 00 498
email: harti@harti.com  Web site: http://www.harti.com
http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB !



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 27 11:27:55 1998
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Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 20:41:38 +0100
From: Stefan Hartmann <harti@harti.com>
Reply-To: leoguitar@vossnet.de
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To: Tim Vaughan <tv@juno.com>
CC: Motoe Suzuki <motoe@popsvr.tokai.jaeri.go.jp>,
        Jean Louis Naudin <jnaudin509@aol.com>,
        Bob Shannon <bshannon@tiac.net>, dave dameron <ddameron@earthlink.net>,
        Dieter Bauer <bauer_d@FHI-Berlin.MPG.DE>,
        freenrg-l <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>,
        Newman-L Mailing List <newman-l@emachine.com>,
        Evan Soule <josephnewman@earthlink.net>,
        "Sergey M.Godin" <serjio@glasnet.ru>
Subject: Newman back current spikes seems to be scope Artifact ..
References: <199811250307.AA00000@motoe.popsvr.tokai.jaeri.go.jp> <365BE46F.FE1B86EC@harti.com>
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Stefan Hartmann wrote:
> 
> Motoe Suzuki wrote:
> >
> >  Dear Mr. Stefan Hartmann,
> >    I always watch your experimental report on your home page.  It is really wonderful.
> > Thank you very much for your efforts.
> >   Unfortunately, I have an opinion that YOU and Mr. Naudin are in the wrong way in the
> > interpretation of experimental results of your Newmann motors.
> >   I am very sorry that my opinion concerning the Newmann motor experiment is severe
> > and tough, because I have wasted so much time and money on this experiment for
> > years.
 >   Dear Mr.J.L.Naudin,
> >   Upon glancing at your new results on 07-02-98, I admit that you have found a very
> > interesting phenomenon.  But, I don't think that it is a proof of overunity.
> >   First, why don't you measure the "negative current" by your oscilloscope at 5V/div.
> > or 20V/div. in the circuit used on 06-27-98 ?   You should do it and show the result.
> > Probably you have already done it and found that the "negative current" disappears.
> > Please comment.

> >  I think that the quite same interpretation can apply to your experimental observations
> > of "negative current".
> > In more detail, I do recommend you to do the followings:
> >   First, you should reverse the probe contact to the resistance to measure the
> > current.  That is, the positive pin head is to the ground side of the resistance, and the
> > ground contact of the probe is to the other side of the resistance.  Then, naturally
> > enough, if the "negative current" is real, the direction of current spikes will be
> > reversed on your oscilloscope display.  But, if the direction is not reversed, the
> > "negative current" should be interpreted as something different.
> 
> Okay, that is a good idea !
> :)
> I will try this on friday and see, if I still ahve these big back
> spikes.
 

Yes, today I have measured this again and it really seems to be an
artifact of the scope
channel input probe unit.

When I reversed the probe unit of the scope, so to measure reversed
polarity at the shunt,
like your poroposal, the big back current pulses disappear !
Then only a small RF burst is displayed !

It seems, this might be also an error in Newman´s book, so that almost
all
engineers who tested Newman´s machine in the 80ies
made wrong conclusions about the electrial output ???


But what could disprove this explanation is, that Newman and Dr.
Hastings measured
these negative current spikes also via a calorimetric measurement by
heating water
and one could see on one videotape from Newman, that also incandescent
bulbs blink bright,
exactly and only at this moment when this negative spike occurs and only
then.
The normal input current was too small to light these bulbs in series
with the coil !

So I wonder, if the RF burst could have done this ?

Regards, Stefan.


--
Hartmann Multimedia Service,  Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
Tel: ++ 49 30-345 00 497  FAX: ++ 49 30-345 00 498
email: harti@harti.com  Web site: http://www.harti.com
http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB !


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 27 11:55:56 1998
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Message-Id: <199811271955.NAA21452@dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: idea
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 98 14:56:04 -0700
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[long post about how theories are developed and which claims are worth 
investigating snipped]

There's a good book that discusses this topic, "The Structure Of 
Scientific Revolutions" by Stephen Kuhn. It's a short book -- I think 
it's worth reading. If you want, I can post a synopsis..


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Nov 19 21:54:29 1998
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On Sat, 14 Nov 1998 15:08:39 -0600 Daniel Joyce <dj38302@swt.edu> writes:

>also, some people have said that Scalars can not be picked up 
>by a normal radio, but Naudin's test used a radio in a faraday box as a
>detector. Hmmm, which is it?
>
>	If so, I will just build a scalar and em detector too.
>
Good idea. Bob Shannon suggested a simple scalar detector called a "field
interferance detector".  Basicly it was another small scalar "translator"
(the coil portion where EM cancellation takes place) with a conventional
winding wound over it. 

Most translators use a simple non-inductive coil such as bifilar with one
end shorted. Naudin uses a cadcacus (never mind my spelling) coil...more
info on that is found in KeelyNet.

The translator is driven by a signal generator, just make sure that you
have a load resistor in series with the translator coil, since it's
inductance is near zero it will load down the generator's output. For
your experiment, you could actually make two output coils (just make one
smaller) and use that for your detector (use a long piece of coax to move
one around). 

Of course, there are other detector schemes. Bob Shannon has a good
article called "Notes on Scalar Detector Designs" (17 pages) on J.L.
Naudins site in the scalar section.

I can send you more info later...I need to finish a reference section
first which I hope to do during the upcomming Holidays (time off
work!!!).

BTW, reply to me directly. I peeked at Freenrg but am not currently on it
(too busy).

Steve

___________________________________________________________________
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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 27 13:24:34 1998
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Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 16:33:39 -0600
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From: josephnewman@earthlink.net (Evan Soule)
Subject: Do not ground out excess energy!
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>Stefan Hartmann wrote:
>
>Motoe Suzuki wrote:
>
>Dear Mr. Stefan Hartmann,
>I always watch your experimental report on your home page.  It is really
>wonderful. Thank you very much for your efforts. Unfortunately, I have an
>opinion that YOU and Mr. Naudin are in the wrong way in the interpretation
>of experimental results of your Newmann motors. I am very sorry that my
>opinion concerning the Newmann motor experiment is severe and tough,
>because I have wasted so much time and money on this experiment for years.
>Dear Mr.J.L.Naudin,
>Upon glancing at your new results on 07-02-98, I admit that you have found
>a very interesting phenomenon.  But, I don't think that it is a proof of
>overunity. First, why don't you measure the "negative current" by your
>oscilloscope at 5V/div. or 20V/div. in the circuit used on 06-27-98 ?
>You should do it and show the result. Probably you have already done it
>and found that the "negative current" disappears. Please comment. I think
>that the quite same interpretation can apply to your experimental
>observations of "negative current". In more detail, I do recommend you to
>do the followings: First, you should reverse the probe contact to the
>resistance to measure the current.  That is, the positive pin head is to
>the ground side of the resistance, and the ground contact of the probe is
>to the other side of the resistance.  Then, naturally enough, if the
>"negative current" is real, the direction of current spikes will be
>reversed on your oscilloscope display.  But, if the direction is not
>reversed, the "negative current" should be interpreted as something
>different.>
>>
>> Okay, that is a good idea !
>> :)
>> I will try this on friday and see, if I still ahve these big back spikes.
>
>
>Yes, today I have measured this again and it really seems to be an
>artifact of the scope channel input probe unit.
>
>When I reversed the probe unit of the scope, so to measure reversed
>polarity at the shunt, like your poroposal, the big back current pulses
>disappear ! Then only a small RF burst is displayed !

>It seems, this might be also an error in Newman´s book, so that almost all
>engineers who tested Newman´s machine in the 80ies made wrong conclusions
>about the electrial output ???
>
>But what could disprove this explanation is, that Newman and Dr. Hastings
>measured these negative current spikes also via a calorimetric measurement
>by heating water and one could see on one videotape from Newman, that also
>incandescent bulbs blink bright, exactly and only at this moment when this
>negative spike occurs and only then. The normal input current was too
>small to light these bulbs in series with the coil !>
>
>So I wonder, if the RF burst could have done this ?
>
>Regards, Stefan.
>

Dear Stefan,

I passed your above comments along to Joseph Newman and he stated the following:

It MUST be isolated from Ground.  We had originally contacted Tecktronix
and were in regular contact with one of their principal experts who was
asked, "What would happen if your scope -- was connected to a machine
having a high charge -- and it was grounded?"  Answer: "The charge would be
dumped to ground."

When such non-grounded, oscilloscope [Tecktronix] tests were conducted by a
Mississippi EE professor, he concluded that the energy machine prototype
which was tested was indeed 200% efficient.

For example, you can take a charged capacitor, hook it to ground, and it
too will dump energy to ground.

The ground position (per the above) has NO other purpose other than to dump
excess energy.  [Oscilloscope experts from Tecktronix Corp. later attended
Joseph Newman's tests of his energy machine prototypes and explicitly
verified this fact.]

____________________

Best regards,

Evan Soule'




From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 27 13:30:27 1998
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cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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On Thu, 26 Nov 1998, Jim Shaffer, Jr. wrote:

> What happened to the freenrg-l list?  I saw no announcement of its closing,
> but I get a 550 user unknown message when I mail to it.


I screwed up: an account payment expired 11/25.  Everything's back again
now. 


A couple of my own bounced messages follow.

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb@eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 27 13:32:47 1998
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On Wed, 25 Nov 1998, Z. Peacock / TAP-L wrote:

> The turkey shot out of the oven
> and rocketed into the air,
> it knocked every plate off the table
> and partly demolished a chair.
> 
> It ricocheted into a corner
> and burst with a deafening boom,
> then splattered all over the kitchen,
> completely obscuring the room.
> 
> It stuck to the walls and the windows,
> it totally coated the floor,
> there was turkey attached to the ceiling,
> where there'd never been turkey before.
> 
> I scraped and I scrubbed with displeasure,
> and thought with chagrin as I mopped,
> that I'd never again stuff a turkey
> with popcorn that hadn't been popped.

Happy Thanksgiving, USA users!


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb@eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 27 13:33:46 1998
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On 27/11/98 22:25:57 Paris, Madrid, josephnewman@earthlink.net wrote :

> 
>  It MUST be isolated from Ground.  We had originally contacted Tecktronix
>  and were in regular contact with one of their principal experts who was
>  asked, "What would happen if your scope -- was connected to a machine
>  having a high charge -- and it was grounded?"  Answer: "The charge would be
>  dumped to ground."
>  
>  When such non-grounded, oscilloscope [Tecktronix] tests were conducted by a
>  Mississippi EE professor, he concluded that the energy machine prototype
>  which was tested was indeed 200% efficient.
>  

Yes I agree with Evan Soule, I have choosen my Textronix scope model for 
its special features :

THS720P
Measures Harmonics up to 31st (Fundamental from 30hz to 450hz) 
==>>Automatic Power Measurement with Statistics 
==>>Independently Floating Isolated Scope and DMM Channels for Safety 
============================
==>>Full Floating Measurement Capability up to 600 VRMS 
=======================================
1 kV High-voltage Probes 
PWM Electric Motor Drive Trigger 
 
Best Regards,

Jean-Louis Naudin


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 27 13:34:32 1998
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Subject: interesting book (fwd)
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I stumbled across a possibly interesting book, GREAT FEUDS IN SCIENCE. 
I'm going to pick up a copy because it covers the Weltner (plate
tektonics) controversy.  Ammo for the "skeptic^2"?    (Skepticism^2 being
critical thought aimed at the behavior of self-described skeptics.)
Haven't read it yet.

   http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0471169803/

The amazon page has several reviews, including the one below.
Can anyone here suggest other sources for history on Weltner?  He
apparantly died in disgrace after decades of pushing his crackpot theory
that continents drift around on the earth's surface.

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb@eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L


Marcello Truzzi (soc_truzzi@online.emich.edu) from Grass Lake,
   Michigan , July 30, 1998 5 out of 5 stars
   excellent popular debunking of "story book" science history.
   Hellman presents us with a well written and carefully researched
   series of entertaining profiles about some notable debates in science
   (both old and current). These are informative and fun to read, but
   perhaps their greatest value for lay readers is in revealing the
   all-too human sides of the combatants. This discredits the "Story
   Book" version of science so often given in texts wherein noble
   scientists are portrayed as unblemished heroes fighting to bring light
   into the darkness against a purely non-scientific opposition. Here we
   see that even great scientists often squabble with one another and
   that they seldom epitomize rationality and objectivity.




From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 27 13:35:43 1998
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On Wed, 25 Nov 1998, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:

> boron basted turkey, neutron emitting side dishes, and not to forget the
> electrolyzed cranberry sauce! 

Does Kervran-style bio-transmutation cause occasional SPC (Spontaneous
Poultry Combustion?)  So engineer the 'Incandescent Chicken' process to
make a self-cooking holiday turkey.  No.  Forget it.  Too easily
weaponizable!  :) 

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb@eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 27 15:05:20 1998
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From: "Jim Shaffer, Jr." <jshaffer@csrlink.net>
To: "freenrg-l" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: implosion energy
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 18:05:58 -0500
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Fred wrote:

>In addition, if the Ampere equation-- which predicts most results
>accurately-- is accepted, then the law of conservation of energy is
>violated. The reason is that, as Pappas shows in some papers about spark
>discharges in relation to the Dragone device, the Ampere law predicts
>that when a spark or electron beam reach a velocity of 70% of the speed
>of light the magnetic forces become stronger than the electric forces
>and the beam focusses itself, bringing the electrons closer together, in
>effect operating against entropy and violating the supposed law of
>conservation of energy.  The energy of the beam increases without any
>input. This of course does not happen in the Lorentz formulation. But
>does it happen in reality?
>
>I suggest it does, in the following devices:
>1)  The Newman machine, which in fact is overunity, but has nothing to
>do with Newman's theories but is a large induction coil allowing for
>spark acceleration past the 70% limit.
>2)  The Chernetski experiment as described by Frolov, where shunting an
>arc into an induction coil circuit reduces the apparent load.
>3)  The Dragone device as described by Tim Vaughn, also using a large
>coil.
>4)  The anomalous reaction forces described by many early plasma
>researchers.
>5)  Possibly the Correa device as well.

(#6?:  Jerry, didn't you once describe an experiment in which a van der
Graaf spark fired through a glass tube terminating in a hole in a grounded
plate showed anomalous energy?)

I've just had an idea.  I admit that it's a little bit of a stretch, but who
knows, there could be something to it.  Let me know what you think.

I was reading a message on another list and the following was quoted:

>     "For decades, the various energy companies have been COLLUDING with
>each other to successfully ignore and even SUPPRESS several types of
>'FREE ENERGY' technology... For example, at least three U.S. Patents
>[#3,811,058; #3,879,622; and #4,151,431] have so far been awarded for
>motors that run EXCLUSIVELY on PERMANENT MAGNETS, apparently TAPPING
>into the energy circulating through the Earth's magnetic field... During
>the 1930's, an Austrian civil engineer named Viktor Schauberger invented
>and partially developed an 'IMPLOSION TURBINE' [German name,
>'ZOKWENDLE']. As described in the book 'A BREAKTHROUGH TO NEW
>FREE-EVERGY SOURCES', by Dan A. Davidson, 1977, water is pumped by an
>IMPELLER pump through a LOGARITHMIC- SPIRAL-SHAPED coil of tubing until
>it reaches a CRITICAL VELOCITY. The water then implodes, no longer
>touching the inside walls of the tubing, and drives the pump, which then
>converts the pump's motor into an electric generator. The device seems
>to be tapping [the dynamo energy of] the Earth's rotation, via the
>'Coriolis effect', like a Tornado."

I'm sure some of you recognize the capitalization style of  "BS" McElwaine,
but since he's quoting someone other than Beter or Terziski, I think we can
deal with it rationally.

First, tapping the Coriolis Effect, as has been pointed out in discussions
here or on KeelyNet several years ago, is unlikely to produce a significant
amount of power.

Second, he makes no mention of the alleged blue glow associated with
Schauberger's more advanced devices.  Here's where I started thinking.  I
had just started to reply to the message and mention the glow when I
remembered Fred's message here about self-imploding self-accelerating
electron beams.    Now, we know that water droplets can often develop an
electric charge, as in thunderclouds, the "Kelvin's Thunderstorm"
demonstration apparatus or the oft-quoted negative ion benefits of
waterfalls.  What if, as the water in the Schauberger apparatus pulls away
from from the walls of the tube, it leaves droplets behind, and the droplets
develop a charge?  Would it be possible for the charged water droplets, if
they were very small, to accelerate, via vacuum pull down the tube or
cavitation or something, to the point where they undergo Ampere-law
collimation?  Can anyone calculate this?

--
If it looks like a hydra, and moves like a hydra, it's a hydra.



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 27 18:28:31 1998
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From: John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu>
To: leoguitar@vossnet.de
cc: Tim Vaughan <tv@juno.com>, Motoe Suzuki <motoe@popsvr.tokai.jaeri.go.jp>,
        Jean Louis Naudin <jnaudin509@aol.com>,
        Bob Shannon <bshannon@tiac.net>, dave dameron <ddameron@earthlink.net>,
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        freenrg-l <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>,
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        Evan Soule <josephnewman@earthlink.net>,
        "Sergey M.Godin" <serjio@glasnet.ru>
Subject: Re: Newman back current spikes seems to be scope Artifact ..
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y

	Dear Folks...

	If you do the 'reverse the probes' trick make SURE the o-scope is 
'floating ' so grounding effects do not enter...

	Other stuff:

	Run the whole shebang on batteries
	Use ANALOG scope!!!
	Use isolation mthods, ie, magnetic, opto or other

	You MUST know the exact path in the front end of your scope... 
before you can trust it!!!!

				JHS


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 27 19:11:06 1998
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Well there you go...

Chris Gupta


I bet the Lizard walked out of the coil.. with out him knowing too!
LOL

>mbgupta@julian.uwo.ca wrote:
>>
>> Most interesting, well has anyone thought of this idea?
>>
>> Chris Gupta
>>
>  George Van Tassel, builder of the integraton told me that
>  he built a small caduceus coil and put a lizard in it. When
>  he put a voltage on it the lizard disappeared.
>  Ron Brennen
>> >
>> > Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 06:09:17 -0800
>> > Reply-To: "R. A. Davis"
>> > From: "R. A. Davis"
>> > To: "Free Energy"
>> > Subject: Re: Caduceus Coil
>> > Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:08:44 -0500
>> > X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0
>> > Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>> > X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/7733
>> > X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>> > Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com
>> >
>> > Wonder if anybody's working with this.  Supposedly the coil has zero
>> > impedance which might suggest its use in an overunity device.
>> > Going further afield, the model for the winding is much more than the
symbol
>> > for medicine.  In ancient hindu mysticism it is a map of the human
psyche,
>> > with one spiral called the Ida and the other Pingala.  These are said to
lie
>> > adjacent to the spinal column, and are associated with the Chakras and
>> > Kundalini energy.
>> > Then again, we have the DNA/RNA molecules, which have the same
>> configuration.
>> > Has anyone ever built a caduceus coil big enough to stand inside of, and
>> sent
>> > ELF
>> > energy into it?--and not had the subject show up at Norfolk Naval Base?
>> > Just wondering if anybody is working along these llines...
>>
>>  -------------------------------------------------------------
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>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 28 01:15:15 1998
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From: JNaudin509@aol.com
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Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 04:10:33 EST
To: herman@antioch-college.edu, leoguitar@vossnet.de, harti@harti.com
Cc: tv@juno.com, motoe@popsvr.tokai.jaeri.go.jp, bshannon@tiac.net,
        ddameron@earthlink.net, bauer_d@FHI-Berlin.MPG.DE,
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Dans un courrier daté du 28/11/98 03:29:07 Paris, Madrid, herman@antioch-
college.edu a écrit :

> 
>  	If you do the 'reverse the probes' trick make SURE the o-scope is 
>  'floating ' so grounding effects do not enter...
>  
>  	Other stuff:
>  
>  	Run the whole shebang on batteries
>  	Use ANALOG scope!!!
>  	Use isolation mthods, ie, magnetic, opto or other
>  
>  	You MUST know the exact path in the front end of your scope... 
>  before you can trust it!!!!
>  

I fully agree with John about these advices.

Jean-Louis


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 28 03:41:32 1998
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From: bpaddock@csonline.net (Bob Paddock)
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Newman back current spikes seems to be scope Artifact ..
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 06:34:59 -0500
Organization: is mostly via piles
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>	If you do the 'reverse the probes' trick make SURE the o-scope is 
>'floating ' so grounding effects do not enter...

And make sure you know what your doing, floating scopes can
kill when doing some kinds of power measurements, when you
make that first&last mistake.

It would be much less lethal to use the proper differential
probe.


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 28 08:45:24 1998
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Subject: Re: Newman back current spikes seems to be scope Artifact ..
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At 06:34 AM 11/28/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>	If you do the 'reverse the probes' trick make SURE the o-scope is 
>>'floating ' so grounding effects do not enter...
>
>And make sure you know what your doing, floating scopes can
>kill when doing some kinds of power measurements, when you
>make that first&last mistake.
>
>It would be much less lethal to use the proper differential
>probe.
>

Absolutely.

Further, the differential technique will give you more accuracy
in the measurement than a "floating" one. For high frequencies,
capacity cannot be ignored in a circuit. Say you have a current
sense resistor on the hot side of a circuit. You put a pair
of probes on the resistor, each with a known capacity to ground.
Fair enough. Now use one probe and float the measuring device.
Now how much capacity have you added to that point? Depends on
how big the instrument case is, and how close to ground, yes?

Of course, if your looking to measure current in the hot part
of a circuit, the best thing is a current transformer. Hall
effect type devices will go to DC, but have poor AC performance.
I use CT-1's and 2's from Textronix for HF AC, and current sense
resistors when I need high bandwidth and DC (always grounded!). If I think
the resistor is lying, I'll double check with the CT. But
I'm proud to say that after 10 years of this kind of crap
I've learned how to make pretty good current sensing resistors.

By the way, I've always wanted to design a "hot" current sensing
resistor. The problem is always isolation. Usually you're wanting
to look at small signals when the common mode may be hundreds
of volts. Well the circuit's doable but expensive to constuct, and
the whole point is to find something cheaper and more robust
than those hall devices. Engineering....ARGHHHHH!

K.


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 28 11:12:07 1998
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Message-ID: <36604E35.E1A905F1@harti.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 20:25:41 +0100
From: Stefan Hartmann <harti@harti.com>
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CC: Motoe Suzuki <motoe@popsvr.tokai.jaeri.go.jp>, serjio@glasnet.ru,
        Greg East <gmeast@pacbell.net>,
        Saphir Kanzaki <Saphir_Kanzaki@gmx.net>,
        freenrg-l <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Spark gap test results with GIF circuit diagram...
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"Bruce A. Perreault" wrote:
> 
> To All,
> 
> This is all explained at,
> 
> http://www.cyberportal.net/nuenergy/glo-reg.htm
> 
> The glo-regulator is your answer to a fast recovery diode!
> 
> -Bruce A. Perreault
> 

I have studied this and it seems all to be only speculation.
There is no evidence that its works.
Any photos showing it in action ?

Also the calim at your site that the Testatika and Hendershot
converter will only work 
with radioactive material
is not true !

Regards, Stefan.


--
Hartmann Multimedia Service,  Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
Tel: ++ 49 30-345 00 497  FAX: ++ 49 30-345 00 498
email: harti@harti.com  Web site: http://www.harti.com
http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB !


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 28 11:35:39 1998
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Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 20:47:16 +0100
From: Stefan Hartmann <harti@harti.com>
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Organization: Hartmann Multimedia Service
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CC: herman@antioch-college.edu, Stefan Hartmann <leoguitar@vossnet.de>,
        tv@juno.com, motoe@popsvr.tokai.jaeri.go.jp, bshannon@tiac.net,
        ddameron@earthlink.net, bauer_d@FHI-Berlin.MPG.DE,
        freenrg-l@eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com,
        josephnewman@earthlink.net, serjio@glasnet.ru
Subject: Re: Newman back current spikes seems to be scope Artifact ..
References: <ec65e1c8.365fbe09@aol.com>
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JNaudin509@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Dans un courrier daté du 28/11/98 03:29:07 Paris, Madrid, herman@antioch-
> college.edu a écrit :
> 
> >
> >       If you do the 'reverse the probes' trick make SURE the o-scope is
> >  'floating ' so grounding effects do not enter...
> >
> >       Other stuff:
> >
> >       Run the whole shebang on batteries
> >       Use ANALOG scope!!!
> >       Use isolation mthods, ie, magnetic, opto or other
> >
> >       You MUST know the exact path in the front end of your scope...
> >  before you can trust it!!!!
> >
> 
> I fully agree with John about these advices.
> 
> Jean-Louis

Yes, that is probably true, that I have grounded out the back current
spikes
this way and indeed the scope was grounded.

I will try on Monday again and use a floating method.

I will report, if I will be getting the back current spikes then again
with the reversed probe unit measurement.

Thanks a lot for this important clue ! :)

Regards, Stefan.

--
Hartmann Multimedia Service,  Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
Tel: ++ 49 30-345 00 497  FAX: ++ 49 30-345 00 498
email: harti@harti.com  Web site: http://www.harti.com
http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB !


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 28 12:25:10 1998
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From: "Bruce A. Perreault" <nuenergy@cyberportal.net>
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        serjio@glasnet.ru, reg East <gmeast@pacbell.net>,
        Saphir Kanzaki <Saphir_Kanzaki@gmx.net>,
        reenrg-l <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Spark gap test results with GIF circuit diagram...
References: <001201be1459$6f5d8f80$752e11cb@686-p200> <366013E0.5E21@cyberportal.net> <36604E35.E1A905F1@harti.com>
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Stefan Hartmann wrote:
> 
> "Bruce A. Perreault" wrote:
> >
> > To All,
> >
> > This is all explained at,
> >
> > http://www.cyberportal.net/nuenergy/glo-reg.htm
> >
> > The glo-regulator is your answer to a fast recovery diode!
> >
> > -Bruce A. Perreault
> >
> 
> I have studied this and it seems all to be only speculation.
> There is no evidence that its works.
> Any photos showing it in action ?


* You have studid it??? You have also said that you do not
have time to test it! However, you do have time to test
the Newman motor, correct? It is a simple test, it would
probably take you 30 minutes to set-up with the equipment
that you have shown on your site. It sure does work, if you
will not do the test someone others will confirm the results.
Ossie and I will have our Patent Pending in a few short weeks!


> 
> Also the calim at your site that the Testatika and Hendershot
> converter will only work with radioactive material is not true!


* OK, you have data that proves otherwise? Where on my site does
it say that the Testatika only works with radioactive material?


-Bruce A. Perreault


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Nov 28 15:03:47 1998
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From: WDBAUER@vossnet.de (W.D. BAUER)
Subject: RE: Zaev-Konverter seems to show overunity
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Hi Bill

You wrote:
>1) I vaguely remember a long time ago someone telling me that if you stretch 
>apart the plates of a charged capacitor, this mechanical energy will be 
>converted into electricity.  Recently someone else on the freenrg-l list said 
>the same thing.
>First of all, is this first item true?

I do not know, who said this, but it is true and has nothing to do with
Zaev´s conversion effect.

>2) There has also been discussions of electronic devices that carry away heat.
>One is magnetically driven, the other is a semiconductor device.  I understand 
>both of these have been developed into commercial applications, I have seen
the  
>semiconductor device advertised as a CPU cooler and a food cooler.  So that it 
>would not be unreasonable to accept that heat can be carried away
electrically, 
>under the right conditions.

That are Peltier-elements you speak from !
>
>If so than I have a question.  Is the Zaev varicond capacitor made from a 
>material that has greater expansion & contraction characteristics than the
other 
>capacitors that you have tested?

The dielectric material these capacitances are made from are piezoelectric
but the effect itself has at least nothing to do with the mechanical
behaviour of the material ! It is an electrocaloric thermodynamic effect
which was discovered by Zaev in Russia on a probably very old type of
ceramic capacitances.

>If these observations are both true then this capacitor would then act like a 
>reciprocating generator driven by heat in the following cycle.
>
>Cycle steps:
>1 - Precharge the capacitor.
>2 - Let heat expand the distance between the plates, generating electricity.
>3 - Discharge the capacitor to carry away the precharge, generated electricity
>    and the heat.
>4 - The cooled capacitor contracts. Start over with step 1.
>
No, that's wrong. The effect is a thermodynamic effect not a mechanical one !

>Perhaps it's not OU but just a simple heat to electricity converter.  Then
maybe 
>what we need is a capacitor design optimized to expand and contract the
distance 
>between the plates as a function of temperature. 

It is not necessary to heat up the capacitance. They cool down probably and
therefore the heat of environment falls into the capacitance. It is OU,
because you build up a cold hole relative to environment,. This violates the
conventional versions of the second law of thermodynamics, see my articles
at http://www.overunity.com/2ndlaw/2ndlaw.htm or
http://www.overunity.com/bauer.index.html

>Also, the Zaev device uses a commutator device to trigger the discharge.  Does 
>his commutator develop the hissing spark effect that Stefan Hartman & JL
Naudin 
>have been investigating.  If it does perhaps the two effects have been 
>additively working together?

No, this effect has nothing to do with that because it can be obtained
without any spark !

Sincerly

Dieter Bauer

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Nov 28 15:47:28 1998
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From: "Bill Wallace" <btech@surfsouth.com>
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Subject: vortex tube
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I have seen the vortex tube with the two bottles.
What happens when you use club soda (carbonated water) in this contraption?

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Nov 28 16:28:18 1998
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Subject: Observation on electrostatic experiements
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--=====================_912263222==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


>Hi All,


Have notice some interesting effects that members of this group  may be
interested in.

Some observations from my electrostatic experiments.

I was trying to make some disk for my Testakica  free energy machine ,I am
trying to make and have noticed the following odd occurrences.


Before I start I like to say the weather here has been hot and dry.

Now to the details

I first glued the components as per experiment diagram one and two, shown
above.

I placed a 14 inch flat aluminum surface cut from a sheet I obtained from a
linotype offset printer for a cost of 65 cents a sheet.

One side  has been coated with some surface they use to print the paper and
left untouched ,the other side is  left uncoated with a bare surface showing.

These sheets are approximately two feet by three feet in size and can be
cut to size requirements with an ordinary pair of scissors)

I had my persplex supplier cut me a disk of 16inch
diameter Persplex 2mm thick, (NB this a plastic glass substitute and may be
know by other names in other parts of the world.) 

When conducting the experiments, the outer coating paper on the persplex
sheeting was removed and there was some stickiness to plastic surface
remaining.

I was  attempting to mount the aluminum disk so that 50 equal spaced
segments can be cut out from the diameter.

I bonded the metal plate to the plastic surface with a cheap contact glue
placed on the coated metal side and then I left this sandwich to dry.

A couple of days later I went to clean the exposed metal surface with a dry
cotton cloth and the received an electrostatic high voltage shock.

The disk was then placed on a laminated table surface with the persplex
sitting on top of table and with aluminum metal faced upwards.

After a further repeating of rubbing with the cotton cloth and when I
lifted the disk combination upwards from one side  and with a portion of
the persplex disk surface still touching the laminated table surface I
received another shock when I bought my finger close to the metal surface.


Later I noticed a cotton cloth was not needed and my hand rubbed across the
metal surface was enough to activate the action again.

And the apparatus was again raised upwards when one portion of disk still
in contact with the table surface ,I was still subjected to an
electrostatic shock on the same hand that was rubbed against the metal
surface previously.

EXPERIMENT TWO

Before I noticed the following results I was going to cut the sandwich up
and use it as a collectors on my the testakica but I not so sure now.


In a further observation carried out later with an aluminum linotype sheet
sandwiched between two 2mm persplex sheets of approximately two foot by
three feet  and with the same type of contact glue covering the metal
sheeting on both sides and then bonding the plastic sheets to it.

I pressed  on both sides of persplex  to help spread the contact glue so
that most of the surfaces were coated.

I then placed the whole assembly in a metal towing trailer to let the glue
dry and then accidentally touched the metal portion and again received an
electric shock.

I noticed too while the assembly was on the metal trailer  and I rubbed
with my hand the top plastic sheeting on the glued assembly and then raised
it so a that gap between the metal foil and the metal trailer decreased and
then  a blue light  was noticed along with a sharp snap sound could be heard.

The second version seems to give better results with stronger voltage and
less rubbing energy 
(a couple of slow swipes seems to be all that is required to get it going.)
This reason could also be, because the surface area is also greater.

I think this device bears some similarities to making an electret also at
my website, but I did not to need to make the plastic in molten state an
subjected to an electrostatic field  to get an electrostatic discharge.


Like to hear from other with some explanation and other results if you have
carried out similar experiments yourself.

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sxVbt1Vbu5VbbTUgAAA7
--=====================_912263222==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"



Geoff

http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/1135
Solaris searching for natures energy sources.

Geoff Egel
18 Sturt Street
Loxton 5333
South Australia
Australia

Phone  (08) (8584 5201)
Usually can be reached hereafter  6 pm local time 
(Monday - Saturday)
Central Australian time
others times you cannot be certain of getting me here.

Like to hear from You,  I expect this to apply only to Australian viewers
--=====================_912263222==_--

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Nov 28 19:06:11 1998
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From: William Beaty <billb@eskimo.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re:  Caduceus Coil
In-Reply-To: <199811280310.WAA23049@romeo.its.uwo.ca>
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On Fri, 27 Nov 1998 mbgupta@julian.uwo.ca wrote:

> >  George Van Tassel, builder of the integraton told me that
> >  he built a small caduceus coil and put a lizard in it. When
> >  he put a voltage on it the lizard disappeared.


The key to these sorts of breakthroughs is DETAILS OF THE EXPERIMENT, SO
OTHERS CAN DO IT FOR THEMSELVES.  Otherwise it's just talk, and it
vanishes into the huge mass of rumor, hoaxes, and one-shot unrepeatable
accidents which already exist in fringe research.

An EFFECTIVE report would be something like this: 

  "I put a lizard in a caduceus coil wound from #8 guage wire having 13
  turns, about 10" in length with 1" inner diameter, the turns organized
  to cross each other in an alternating row.  When I briefly connected 48
  volts to it from a very large series/parallel-connected bank of truck
  batteries, the lizard vanished.  I kept my eyes on the creature the
  entire time, and it did not simply run away, instead it blinked out of
  existence.  There was no flash and no sound. I have repeated this effect
  over and over, and the lizard vanishes about 80% of the time.  There
  is no effect on goldfish or crickets, or on freshly-killed lizards."

Rumors and bragging are common in fringe science, but proper reports like
my pretend example above are rare.  I imagine that there are several
causes for this:  the event never happened, and the report is an urban
legend.  Or, it did happen, but it might have a boring explanation, and
the researcher prefers that nobody look too closely.  Or, it did happen,
but it would be bad for the researcher's ego if we found out that he could
never duplicate it again.  Or, it did happen and the researcher hopes to
harness the effect and become fantastically wealthy, so he certainly isn't
going to give any details to anyone else.  Or, the researcher simply
doesn't realize the vast power of open communication and repeatability,
and so sees no need to reveal the details (and then probably bitches
about the fact that nobody ever takes his amazing results seriously.) 

I am convinced that the goal of "fringe research" should NOT be to make
amazing discoveries.  The goal should be to GET OTHER PEOPLE TO REPEAT
AMAZING DISCOVERIES.  If this is the goal, then all our actions in
everyday scientific work will be different: total open honesty, detailed
notebook-keeping, videotaped records, repeating experiments to verify ease
of duplication, reporting model numbers of equipment and details of all
components, etc., etc.  But if the goal is simply to make a discovery,
then chances are the discovery will languish, and will rapidly be lost to
the world. 


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb@eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Nov 28 19:12:31 1998
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Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 06:59:53 -0800
Subject: Re: Observation on electrostatic experiements
Message-ID: <19981129.071053.3542.1.tv@juno.com>
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Geoff,

Sounds like you made an electrophorus !   The work you did by lifting the
disk created the high potential by induction.  The electrophorus is an
old invention, but still a fun toy.   Surprisingly few people know much
about them.

Tim Vaughan  ( tv@juno.com )

>A couple of days later I went to clean the exposed metal surface with a
dry
>cotton cloth and the received an electrostatic high voltage shock.

>The disk was then placed on a laminated table surface with the persplex
>sitting on top of table and with aluminum metal faced upwards.

>After a further repeating of rubbing with the cotton cloth and when I
>lifted the disk combination upwards from one side  and with a portion of
>the persplex disk surface still touching the laminated table surface I
>received another shock when I bought my finger close to the metal
surface.



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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Nov 28 22:56:45 1998
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Hi Freenergites,

I was thrown off for a while accidentally, in case anyone wondered why I
didn't respond to your comments. Or maybe this was a relief :-)
In any case, I'll be going back and getting messages from the archives
and responding to them.

Fred

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Nov 28 23:12:30 1998
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Bill,

Your comments on the basis of experimental reporting rang truely, but I 
suspect to a minority of the amateur scientists who write to this forum.

This forum must contain a larger proportion of theoretical "scientists" 
than Princton's Advanced Studies unit.

Yours in Science,

John Parrish.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 29 00:33:18 1998
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Bob Shannon wrote:

+AD4- +AD4-What is interesting here, is that measurments show that healers and
+AD4- +AD4-shamans and yogi's have been measured, and found to 'lock onto' the+AD4-
+AD4-actual
+AD4- +AD4-schuman signal while in their 'special states'.  We all have the same
+AD4- +AD4-frequencies, but they actually 'lock on' to the same attractor as the
+AD4- +AD4-schuman+AD4- +AD4-signals.

I would be interested in where you heard about this?  I have heard Bob
Beck did some experiments with Andrija Puharich where he fed real time
schumann signals back to people and they became telepathic, but I have
never found a source for this rumor.  I would like to hear any concrete
imformation about any studies that have been done on psychoactive
effects of schumann signals.

BTW, there appear to be definite changes in psychic abilities with
geomagnetic storms.  I found these papers this week:

http://www.jsasoc.com/library.html

Fred

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 29 00:33:19 1998
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R.A. Davis said:

Wonder if anybody's working with this.  Supposedly the coil has zero
impedance which might suggest its use in an overunity device.

Dave Dameron said this:

In my opinion, I think most of the claims for a caduceus coil such as
described in:
http://www.newphys.se/elektromagnum/physics/KeelyNet/energy/caduceus.asc
are not true. Why?? As wired, it doesn't do what is claimed.
Take a normal solenoid coil wound from a single length of wire, but in 2
layers. The start and end of the windings are at the same end. The
magnetic
fields of the 2 layers ADD, the currents rotate in the same direction in
both layers.However, the individual turns do not lie exactly on top of
each
other or are parallel. One layer is wound as a left-hand helix, while
the
other is a right-hand helix, so the turns of the 2 layers cross. You can
wind a simple one yourself if it isn't clear.
Thus a caduceus coil as described above is just an 2 layer solenoid with
the
turns spaced. It has inductance for example. I think the characteristics
could be better described to a 4 lead +ACI-caduceus+ACI- coil, currents opposed,
or
an opposing bifilar coil.

Almost all of the stories about the Caduceus coil are derived from one
article, +ACI-The Smith Coil+ACI- by Gaston Burridge. I'm looking at that
article now, and the coil shown there is the one where the currents
enter at one end and then go in opposite spiral directions as they
travel to the other end. I'm not sure where the idea came from that the
other configuration is a Smith coil but it clearly is not. As Dave says,
the fields support each other in that setup.
The ORIGINAL Smith coil is quite interesting electromagetically. Clearly
it does have inductance, because if properly made the windings should be
at 90 degrees. This right anlge across the bump seems to be key to the
effects. In any case it does not duplicate the so-called +ACI-non-inductive+ACI-
bifilar coil.
I have surveyed all the literature about these coils that I can find.
Aside from the Burridge article, with whatever inaccuracies it may
contain (he clearly states in the article that he was not told much
about the cad coil reseach, and that there were two competing groups
working on it, which kept secrets from each other, and from him) there
is the file here:

http://www.spiritweb.org/KeelyNet/Biology/cadcoil.asc.html

And the biological experiments of Glen Rein.

One interesting commonality between these last two sources is the
existence of E/S fields in the area of the coil. The Keelynet file says:

+ACI-The only effect which could be attributed to  this experiment
(although  there  are  no  direct
linkages) was that the house became +AGA-charged'. The potential in
relation  to the human body had  changed  and  now static shocks became
annoyingly   common.   This effect lasted approximately three months and
then dissipated to a normal level. No other unusual going ons were
happening in the house at the time.+ACI-

The Glen Rein article I have called +ACI-Utilization Of A Cell Culture
Bioassay For Measuring Quantum Potentials Generated From A Modified
Caduceus Coil+ACI- describes several unusual effects, including increased
geiger counter readings, but in particular saying:

+ACI-Electrostatic fields were also measured in the 2 inch space immediately
above the caduceus coil.  The electric field in this space was 50-75 V
positive and therefore showed a reverse potentiality with respect to the
adjacent tabletop which was electronegative.+ACI-

I have another report which unfortunately I cannot describe in detail
indicating an anomalously strong electrostatic discharge above a cad
coil after pumping it with a small sine voltage.

This would seem to be an ideal area for experimentation, since the cad
coils are easy to make, and the effects appear to be quite unusual.

I believe the cad coil organizes what I call electromagnetic energy (EE)
units in the area.  This is the same energy that people call orgone.
(Orgone is also associated with increased geiger counter and
electroscope readings).
These units have some interesting characteristics, as I conceive of
them.  First, they attract each other, accumulating to higher and high
densities gradually once the process is initiated. Thus they are
anti-entropic. Secondly they attract electric charge.
This means if these units are introduced into an area by whatever means,
like a cad coil (maybe), or a pyramid, or orgone accumulator, they will
gradually build strength. More importantly for energy generation they
will act as a +ACI-glue+ACI- for free charge, allowing it to accumulate against
the potential gradient.
It would be fairly easy to build a gadget to test this hypothesis. Make
a small cad coil and aim it at a small metal sphere separated from
ground by a high resistance and measure voltage across this resistor.  I
predict that the sphere will develop a greater potential than a sphere
not exposed to the coil, even after a very short time of coil operation.
You could also try putting the cad coil inside of the sphere.
Make sure that the cad coil is the type with opposing currents.  You
could try feeding it with various frequencies and waveforms, with an air
core, a ferrite, or a quartz crystal in the center.

Fred



















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On 25/11/98 02:20:13 bshannon+AEA-tiac.net wrote :

+AD4- Also potentially important is the fact that Hutchison was able to
+AD4-  reproduce many of his effects WITHOUT equipment of any form+ACE-

Hi Bob+ACE-

It seems like I am bugging you a lot for references but I just can't
pass this one up. Where did you learn this?


Fred

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 29 02:02:13 1998
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Hi Jim+ACE-


(+ACM-6?:  Jerry, didn't you once describe an experiment in which a van der
Graaf spark fired through a glass tube terminating in a hole in a
grounded
plate showed anomalous energy?)

Would like to hear more about that..

Second, he makes no mention of the alleged blue glow associated with
Schauberger's more advanced devices.  Here's where I started thinking.
I
had just started to reply to the message and mention the glow when I
remembered Fred's message here about self-imploding self-accelerating
electron beams.    Now, we know that water droplets can often develop an
electric charge, as in thunderclouds, the +ACI-Kelvin's Thunderstorm+ACI-
demonstration apparatus or the oft-quoted negative ion benefits of
waterfalls.  What if, as the water in the Schauberger apparatus pulls
away
from from the walls of the tube, it leaves droplets behind, and the
droplets
develop a charge?  Would it be possible for the charged water droplets,
if
they were very small, to accelerate, via vacuum pull down the tube or
cavitation or something, to the point where they undergo Ampere-law
collimation?  Can anyone calculate this?

This doesn't seem likely, Jim+ADs- although I am not skilled enough to
calculate it, as I said the electrons need to be moving at 70+ACU- of light
speed for these Ampere effects to occur, not too much chance of getting
even single H ions to move that fast in a water tube.

This doesn't invalidate the OU possibilities of the vortex type of
device though. Depalma showed with some early experiments that rotating
discs attracted each other when they were moving in the same direction
of rotation.  This is in accord with the theory of the +ACI-physical vacuum+ACI-
described by the Russian torsion wave researchers.  Apparently spin
itself is an elementary force like magnetism or gravity, with its own
properties. In the centripetal flow of the Schauberger vortex the water
would be forced closer and closer together while rotating, and might
attract itself in this way through this spin force. A part of this attra
ction would have the effect of increasing the rate of flow beyond what
the gravitational forces would create, in effect generating free energy.

The blue glow sounds like orgone energy, which is not as farfetched as
it may seem when you consider that water is a known absorber of these
sorts of energies, and that Reich described the energy as blue, and
flowing in spiral waves called Kreiselwelle, which attracted each other.
And when these waves met, according to Reich, they formed a +ACI-very
elementary particle+ACI- that became the constituent of the rest of matter
and energy.. like electrons, maybe??

Over and over you see vortical forms used in FE machines.  George Lao
Russell made one that used two coils. It's hard to describe but think of
two cones with points toward each other and wind a spiral coil around
each one, with opposite turns. Now take the cones and push them through
each other so that the cones and coils overlap. I'm not sure how they
were hooked up. He claimed that this machine was tested by Westinghouse
but few details are available. But you can see the same principle as a
caduceus coil here, and even connections to the Schauberger vortex
machine.

Fred




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Has anyone reviewed (or familiar with) the above technology as
elaborated below? Jorg Ostrowski
_____________________________________________________________________________
"Environmental Concerns of Mankind Inc. was formed to introduce advanced
technology in the field of Zero Point Energy electrical power generation as
well as tap into vast new sources of clean pure water (Skywell Water Systems)
in almost any climate and region of the world at very economical prices( $3.00
pr 300,000 gallons). We hope to joint venture with corporations interested in
providing viable fuel-less and pollution-free energy alternatives that can 
deliver electrical, mechanical and thermal power. Environmental Concerns of
Mankind has developed and is continuing to develop and refine these 
technologies which collect and convert energy from a previously untapped source,
sometimes referred to as Zero Point Energy (ZPE)."
_______________________________________________________________________________


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 29 06:06:35 1998
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Hi;

At 01:53 AM 11/29/98 -0800, you wrote:

(snip)

>In the centripetal flow of the Schauberger vortex the water
>would be forced closer and closer together while rotating,

Schauberger called this the molecular 'compression of dematerialization' or
implosion.

>and might
>attract itself in this way through this spin force. A part of this attra
>ction would have the effect of increasing the rate of flow beyond what
>the gravitational forces would create, in effect generating free energy.

(snip)

Viktor Schauberger thought of neutrons, not as discrete particles, but as a
magnetic cement (it is interesting that deuterium and hydrogen are about the
same diameter) that resonates with the electric fields of both proton and
electron to form stable atomic structures. Under certain conditions,
electrons and protons of opposite charges and direction of spin are forced
into collision and annihilate one another (go to a higher dimension). The
glowing bluish - white discharge is supposedly this freed neutronic energy.


Regards;
Dennis



Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 29 08:07:03 1998
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From: Anton Rager <a_rager@yahoo.com>
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Hello again All/John,

Was reviewing the archives [Online! I love it!], and came across John
S.'s little teaser on 'Whistlers' and other natural-radio sounds. 
Great stuff...I've been wanting to build a reciever for natural radio,
but didn't realize how broad the field of natural signals was.

Questions:

1 - Could you [John] expand on the more obscure reference to optical
emissions and organism transduction?  At least give me a bit more
leading info to start some research.

John  S. wrote:
>Beyond this 'sort of common' work there are 
>investigators who look to the unseen and unheard and 
>detect and study the bandwidths described abbove, but 
>carried as other forms from [2] TYPE .. these include, 
>but are not limited to;

> a] optical emissions in many wavelengths
> b] mechanical or acoustic in and on land, sea and air
> c] transduction by living organisms.

>There are some seismic and astronomical investigators 
>in this area.

2 - I have a friend who does spinal column/brain monitoring during
spinal/brain surgery.  I seem to remember her telling me that the
frequencies of the nerves she monitors are in the audible RF range as
well...strange how natual radio [storms/solar activity] and nerve
signalling are in similar ranges.  Earth/Biological
symbiosis/interferance?

3 - This probably relates more to the Newman motor, but does anyone
have a good idea what part of the spectrum a spark-gap radiates into?
[obviously light, but what other RF?] Is it across the board like
lightning?  Perhaps this has something to do with the Newman motor's
odd results [back EMF due to spark-gap interference?]

4 - This one might be a bit out-there, but if approaching storms
[sferics and such] create RF....does water movement/temp differential
create RF as well?  If I pour hot water into a cold tub...does it
produce any RF? What about a waterfall?

Sorry -- no particular FE insights, just some free-association
results/questions from this topic.

All for now,

Anton Rager
a_rager@yahoo.com
==
Anton Rager
a_rager@yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 29 11:42:03 1998
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>The key to these sorts of breakthroughs is DETAILS OF THE EXPERIMENT, SO
>OTHERS CAN DO IT FOR THEMSELVES.

Bravo!  Bill, I wish more understood that.

Otherwise it's just talk, and it
>vanishes into the huge mass of rumor, hoaxes, and one-shot unrepeatable
>accidents which already exist in fringe research.

Speaking of rumors, what have you heard of the papp engine (sp) and a man
named Glenn Frazier?



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 29 11:49:12 1998
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I know little, could you please elaborate.

>Geoff,
>
>Sounds like you made an electrophorus !   The work you did by lifting the
>disk created the high potential by induction.  The electrophorus is an
>old invention, but still a fun toy.   Surprisingly few people know much
>about them.
>


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 29 12:31:26 1998
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From: William Beaty <billb@eskimo.com>
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Subject: papp engine
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On Sun, 29 Nov 1998, Bill Wallace wrote:

> Speaking of rumors, what have you heard of the papp engine (sp) and a man
> named Glenn Frazier?

Nothing recently.  I think it was mentioned in THE COMING ENERGY
REVOLUTION.  Also, there's that Richard Feynman story, see:
http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/feynman.html, link to "papf perpetual motion
engine".   (If the Papp engine was real, then Feynman's hostile, skeptical
prejudgement actually got somebody killed!)

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb@eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 29 12:41:25 1998
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Subject: Re: Pretend experimental report.
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On Sat, 28 Nov 1998, john Graham wrote:

> Your comments on the basis of experimental reporting rang truely, but I 
> suspect to a minority of the amateur scientists who write to this forum.
> 
> This forum must contain a larger proportion of theoretical "scientists" 
> than Princton's Advanced Studies unit.

Yes, but even *I* rarely experiment anymore (my brain was sucked into
internet!)  Chances are for whoever might be reading this, you aren't
spending enough time getting your hands dirty with actual lab work.  ( I'm
a major offender. )  The internet breaks the barriers of secrecy and
allows "communities" to exist which never could before, but then it
diverts us all from doing any work in the real world


PS   Regarding theory, I hope everyone recalls this freenrg-L rule:

2. HEAVY ON EXPERIMENTALISM.  Or theory-led experiments.  Or theoretical
   implications of actual experiments.  This is not a forum for all those
   controversial physics theories being ignored by mainstream science. Try
   NEOTECH for those.  But if your theory leads directly to interesting,
   testable, real-world phenomena, then by all means discuss the experimental
   possibilites.  If your experiments reveal anomalies not predicted by ANY
   theory, definitely jump right in and discuss your findings.  Also it's
   very acceptable to publish theoretical work on a web page and announce its
   presence here.

Is NEOTECH permanently defunct?  Are their any other 'alternative theory'
discussion lists active anywhere?

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb@eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 29 12:58:37 1998
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Hi Dennis,
>
>>In the centripetal flow of the Schauberger vortex the water
>>would be forced closer and closer together while rotating,
>
>Schauberger called this the molecular 'compression of
dematerialization' or
>implosion.

What was his reason for calling it dematerialization?
>
>>and might
>>attract itself in this way through this spin force. A part of this
attra
>>ction would have the effect of increasing the rate of flow beyond what
>>the gravitational forces would create, in effect generating free
energy.
>
>(snip)
>
>Viktor Schauberger thought of neutrons, not as discrete particles, but
as a
>magnetic cement (it is interesting that deuterium and hydrogen are
about the
>same diameter) that resonates with the electric fields of both proton
and
>electron to form stable atomic structures. Under certain conditions,
>electrons and protons of opposite charges and direction of spin are
forced
>into collision and annihilate one another (go to a higher dimension).
The
>glowing bluish - white discharge is supposedly this freed neutronic
energy.

Pretty similar to what I came up with, except that the particles are
much smaller than neutrons, or electrons, for that matter. But they are
electrically neutral, and at the same time they attract charge.

Fred



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Hi Bill and all,


>>The key to these sorts of breakthroughs is DETAILS OF THE EXPERIMENT,
SO
>>OTHERS CAN DO IT FOR THEMSELVES.
>
>Bravo!  Bill, I wish more understood that.
>
>Otherwise it's just talk, and it
>>vanishes into the huge mass of rumor, hoaxes, and one-shot
unrepeatable
>>accidents which already exist in fringe research.

Where can I find Bill Beatty's original comments?  If they were on the
list I didn't get them...

Fred




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Hi John and Bill,
>>
>> This forum must contain a larger proportion of theoretical
"scientists"
>> than Princton's Advanced Studies unit.

Yes, I have done maybe one experiment in my life :-)
There is a place for theory, but not at the expense of replicable
experiments.
It serves its purpose best if it defines an experiment and predicts the
results.
Otherwise it is fairly useless and just keeps the real scientists away
from their lab benches.
>
>Yes, but even *I* rarely experiment anymore (my brain was sucked into
>internet!)  Chances are for whoever might be reading this, you aren't
>spending enough time getting your hands dirty with actual lab work.
 I'm
>a major offender. )  The internet breaks the barriers of secrecy and
>allows "communities" to exist which never could before, but then it
>diverts us all from doing any work in the real world

I agree, that's one reason why I left this list for a while, I find that
working with a small group doing experiments is much more productive
than answering random mail.  I strongly recommend small internet-based
experimental groups that communicate by ICQ or chat as a way to move
forward, they can be very productive.
At the same time I missed the general community aspects a lot.

  But if your theory leads directly to interesting,
>   testable, real-world phenomena, then by all means discuss the
experimental
>   possibilites.

For myself I can promise that I will never present a theory without at
least one experiment to test it out.
I am wasting your time otherwise.

Fred


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 29 13:50:17 1998
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From: dave dameron <ddameron@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Caduceus coils
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H Fred and all,
Thanks for finding these references.
At 12:26 AM 11/29/98 -0800, you wrote:

>In my opinion, I think most of the claims for a caduceus coil such as
>described in:
>http://www.newphys.se/elektromagnum/physics/KeelyNet/energy/caduceus.asc
>are not true.
>an opposing bifilar coil.
>
>Almost all of the stories about the Caduceus coil are derived from one
>article, _The Smith Coil_ by Gaston Burridge. I'm looking at that
>article now, and the coil shown there is the one where the currents
>enter at one end and then go in opposite spiral directions as they
>travel to the other end. I'm not sure where the idea came from that the
>other configuration is a Smith coil but it clearly is not. As Dave says,
>the fields support each other in that setup.
>The ORIGINAL Smith coil is quite interesting electromagetically. Clearly
>it does have inductance, because if properly made the windings should be
>at 90 degrees.

Can you explain what the 90 deg crossings have to do with inductance? Do you
mean the (self) inductance of each layer, the mutual inductance between the
2 layers (here I'm referring to 2 coils, 4 leads as the orig. Smith coil),
or the inductance of both coils with only 2 leads (Other later "Cad" coil)?

>This right angle across the bump seems to be key to the
>effects. In any case it does not duplicate the so-called _non-inductive_
>bifilar coil.
>I have surveyed all the literature about these coils that I can find.
>Aside from the Burridge article, with whatever inaccuracies it may
>contain (he clearly states in the article that he was not told much
>about the cad coil reseach, and that there were two competing groups
>working on it, which kept secrets from each other, and from him) there
>is the file here:
>
>http://www.spiritweb.org/KeelyNet/Biology/cadcoil.asc.html

These claims sound like they were also done with only the 2 lead kind. I
tried to find the Smith coil reference that I've seen before and found
instead, that this has been gone over before:

http://dallastexas.net/keelynet/oldarchive/00000818.htm

Which discussed the 4 lead Smith coil as compared to the 2 lead "cad" coil.

>And the biological experiments of Glen Rein.
>
-Dave

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 29 13:59:09 1998
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From: John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu>
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	Dear Folks....

	Part of the letter below [see flag] is in error.  Humans are NOT 
dielectrics.   We are electrolytic conductors... and present a complex 
impedance, LRC.  To be simplified, we can be thought of as a non 
homogeneous 9 to 10 percent salt water.... interrupted by bones, air in 
the lungs and other parts of the body and so on.  Not a simple thing, at 
best.




On Sat, 21 Nov 1998, Keith Nagel wrote:

> Hello Fred.
> 
> Reminds me of the process by which EMP is generated by high altitude
> atomic explosions. Seems the prompt gammas come down from the near
> vacuum of space to the upper atmosphere, displacing charge as they
> dissipate in a shell above the earth. One might think that as the
> current is always along the path of a vector normal to the spherical
> shell that no radiation would be produced, but actually the magnetic
> field of the earth causes this current to take a helical shape.
> The result is a hugh helical antenna, its beam maximum along the
> aforementioned vector. 
> 


=======FLAG=======
> Oddly, though ruinous to electrical equiptment, big slabs of
> dielectric (like us) seem unaffected. Post if you know otherwise :^)
> 
> K.==========
> 
> 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 29 14:20:31 1998
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Subject: Re: Whistlers
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	Dear fre,

	Acquisition of low level magnetic effects can be achived in urban 
areas.... it requires correct instrumentation.

	AND:  the ionosphere is NOT static.... hence the frequency caused 
by ionosphere-earth interaction is not fixed.  It was monitored by SQUID 
for a 6 month period [USAF] and was found to vary from ~ 4 to 5 cps to 30 
to 44 cps.... all types of things appeared influence it.  The ones we saw 
which appeared to jibe included but waere not limited to;

	moon
	magnetic storms
	distortions of the photo and magnetosphere
	electrical discharge and storm activity.

On Sun, 22 Nov 1998, Fred Epps wrote:

> Hi Keith!
> 
> >
> >As Tesla pointed out, the schumann type resonances are caused by
> >the finite size and shape of the earth and ionosphere.
> 

	The size and shape of the ionosphere is not finite.... not is it 
constant.... and it is also a variable as to conductivity, 'density', 
'thickness' and so on...


> Yes, that is true, the frequencies are detemined by the size of the
> earth, but what I was mentioning that hasn't been discussed much is that
> a lot of the energy that is determining the amplitude of the resonances
> is coming not from lightning but from solar winds "flapping" the
> magnetophere, and this vibration pumping energy into the ionosphere. I
> haven't seen this mentioned anywhere but in the scholarly book "The
> Schumann Resonance" (forgot the author's name).
> 
	This is a poor analogy... and the effects are mentioned in 
several texts, the notable ones that come to my mind are 

	Micropulsations of the Eath's Magnetic Field	
	and
	Paleomagnetism




> If I remember
> >rightly, the whistlers are charged particles flowing back and forth
> >between the magnetic poles of the planet, executing a helical


	Whistlers are EM.



> >motion due to the field thus emitting radiation. Hence my
> >analogy to EMP. I seem to remember a good general article on
> >this (whistlers) in SA, check their index for the topic. The
> >solar wind is indeed responsible for this.
> 
	Solar weind is responsible for WHAT?


> Yes.
> >
> >It has often been pointed out that the schumann resonances
> >are in the range of human brain activity; in fact the primary
> >7.5hz one is right on the alpha state.
> 

	You should all read up on EEG research... then we can conduct a 
discussion on the issues of EEG frequencies... and anything else.   EEG 
research is a not very exact science.


> Yes, you can overlay a chart of the resonances and a chart of the
> average EEG power spectrum and they line up pretty close.
> 

	This  would be like saying all people are right handed.... WHAT 
EEG spectra.... acquired how... when, and from whom?



>  Remember the flap
> >about the "woodpecker" during the 80's? Well, if there are
> >effects they must be subtle; perhaps exposure causes humans
> >to vote republican :^) Seriously, I've seen a slew of papers
> >trying to tie a definite measureable effect to this sort
> >of thing, but no smoking gun.
> 
> It was a false alarm as so many of these things are. Instigated by a few
> well known anti-soviet paranoids.
> 
>  About 8 years back I wanted
> >to measure the schumann frequencies, so I built a special
> >type of superregenerative receiver
> 
> Sutton Black hole antenna?
> 
> and set out to measure.
> >First thing I noticed, was that the ambient 60hz was SEVERAL
> >ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE larger...
> 
> Yes, there is a natural 60 Hz resonance, which is why Tesla picked it
> for his AC line freq, I think. Unfortunately, now the whole atmospheric
> electrical circuit is being driven by this freq with unknown
> consequences.
> 
>  I eventually left the lab
> >and went out to a state park; at it's center activity was
> >low enough to begin considering the 7hz stuff.
> 
> Yes some friends of mine were looking for ways to get those, and it
> turned out to be near impossible in urban areas, unless you wanted to do
> some heavy signal processing maybe.  It MIGHT be possible with two
> antennas 10-20 yards apart, the schumann signals will still be in phase
> but most artificial sources will not be.  Big artificial sources include
> trains, interestingly, at around 16 Hz. Of course the 60 Hz can be notch
> filtered out, they are not the main problem, since the more interesting
> bioactive freqs are lower.
> 
> Let me know if you figure out a way to get those in urban areas. It is a
> very tricky problem from what I've seen, but potentially very rewarding.
> >>
> >>Well if you are speaking of EMP I don't know much about it, though I
> can
> >>ask someone who does.
> >
> >Please do. I for one have seen very little in the way of material
> >on the biological effects of EMP.
> 
> Will do.
> 
> Fred
> 
> 
> 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 29 14:23:36 1998
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Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 17:29:30 -0500
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From: "Dennis C. Lee" <atech@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: implosion energy
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Hi;

At 12:49 PM 11/29/98 -0800, you wrote:

(snip)

>>Schauberger called this the molecular 'compression of
>dematerialization' or
>>implosion.
>
>What was his reason for calling it dematerialization?

The electrons and protons would compress to the point of charge cancellation
and they would go to a higher dimension. This would leave the blue-white
glow of the neutron magnetic energy.

(snip)

>>Viktor Schauberger thought of neutrons, not as discrete particles, but
>as a
>>magnetic cement (it is interesting that deuterium and hydrogen are
>about the
>>same diameter) that resonates with the electric fields of both proton
>and
>>electron to form stable atomic structures. Under certain conditions,
>>electrons and protons of opposite charges and direction of spin are
>forced
>>into collision and annihilate one another (go to a higher dimension).
>The
>>glowing bluish - white discharge is supposedly this freed neutronic
>energy.
>
>Pretty similar to what I came up with, except that the particles are
>much smaller than neutrons, or electrons, for that matter. But they are
>electrically neutral, and at the same time they attract charge.

Deuterium and hydrogen atoms are different in that the former has a neutron
in the nucleus and the latter does not. Yet the diameter of both types of
atoms are about the same. This puts int question whether neutron are really
particles. Neutrons are charge neutral yet are associated with magnetic field.

Regards;
Dennis


Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 29 15:07:19 1998
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Subject: Re: Whistlers
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At 05:12 PM 11/29/98 -0500, you wrote:
>	AND:  the ionosphere is NOT static.... hence the frequency caused 
>by ionosphere-earth interaction is not fixed.  It was monitored by SQUID 
>for a 6 month period [USAF] and was found to vary from ~ 4 to 5 cps to 30 
>to 44 cps.... all types of things appeared influence it.  The ones we saw 
>which appeared to jibe included but waere not limited to;

Thats an immense variation (5-44hz), sounds like you're see various
modes becoming more dominant. Tell us about the study.

>> If I remember
>> >rightly, the whistlers are charged particles flowing back and forth
>> >between the magnetic poles of the planet, executing a helical
>
>
>	Whistlers are EM.

Uh, what do you think causes that EM radiation? 

>> 
>	Solar weind is responsible for WHAT?
>

Charged particles striking the planet.

>
>> Yes.
>> >
>> >It has often been pointed out that the schumann resonances
>> >are in the range of human brain activity; in fact the primary
>> >7.5hz one is right on the alpha state.
>> 
>
>	You should all read up on EEG research... then we can conduct a 
>discussion on the issues of EEG frequencies... and anything else.   EEG 
>research is a not very exact science.
>

Well, the alpha state is considered in the 7-9Hz range, right?
And the nominal value for the schumann resonance is ~8Hz, right?

So the match is pretty good, even for a "not very exact science" :^)

>
>> Yes, you can overlay a chart of the resonances and a chart of the
>> average EEG power spectrum and they line up pretty close.
>> 
>
>	This  would be like saying all people are right handed.... WHAT 
>EEG spectra.... acquired how... when, and from whom?

Fred overstates here, but the point was that the earth resonances
are in the range of brain activity.

Well, as you have (belatedly) joined the discussion, I have
a question for you. Seems a few months back you posted
some material concerning noninvasive brain stimulation with
large inductors pulsed with fast risetime currents. I remember
your comments about field testing the hardware, launching
quarters into the ceiling. What kind of field intensities
and rates of change were required to cause enough eddy current
to get muscle and brain response?

K.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 29 16:19:33 1998
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Hi John,


>
> Acquisition of low level magnetic effects can be achived in urban
>areas.... it requires correct instrumentation.

What means would be used to block out artificial sources of noise below
20 Hz, without blocking the desired signals as well? Obviously you can
use a filter for the huge 60 Hz peak.
>
> AND:  the ionosphere is NOT static.... hence the frequency caused
>by ionosphere-earth interaction is not fixed.  It was monitored by
SQUID
>for a 6 month period [USAF] and was found to vary from ~ 4 to 5 cps to
30
>to 44 cps.... all types of things appeared influence it.

True, and the Schumann resonances vary as well but not through so much
of a range.  The resonances have peaks at around 8, 14, 20, and 26 Hz
and these all go up a few Hz at most at night.
In other words, the 8 Hz one might go up a few hertz but it wouldn't go
up 30 Hz.
You are giving the mistaken impression that a single resonance might go
from say 8 to 30 Hz. They don't do that.

 The ones we saw
>which appeared to jibe included but waere not limited to;
>
> moon
> magnetic storms
> distortions of the photo and magnetosphere
> electrical discharge and storm activity.

Right, there is a lot of stuff superimposed over the resonances, like
fast pulses etc. with all sorts of different causes.
>> >
>> >As Tesla pointed out, the schumann type resonances are caused by
>> >the finite size and shape of the earth and ionosphere.
>>
>
> The size and shape of the ionosphere is not finite.... not is it
>constant.... and it is also a variable as to conductivity, 'density',
>'thickness' and so on...

Well, what I meant was that the basic frequency range was constrained by
the basic diameter of the earth and ionosphere. This is well
established, first theroetically by Tesla, then corrected for
ionospheric conductivity and oceans by Balmer, and discovered by
Schumann.
>
>
>> Yes, that is true, the frequencies are detemined by the size of the
>> earth, but what I was mentioning that hasn't been discussed much is
that
>> a lot of the energy that is determining the amplitude of the
resonances
>> is coming not from lightning but from solar winds "flapping" the
>> magnetophere, and this vibration pumping energy into the ionosphere.
I
>> haven't seen this mentioned anywhere but in the scholarly book "The
>> Schumann Resonance" (forgot the author's name).
>>
> This is a poor analogy... and the effects are mentioned in
>several texts, the notable ones that come to my mind are
>
> Micropulsations of the Eath's Magnetic Field
> and
> Paleomagnetism

Nope, not what I am referring to here.  The micropulsations are in a
lower frequency range and are more closely tied to the sun's magnetic
field, I think, but I haven't looked at them as much.  Correct me if I
am wrong :-) I do remember that they are quite different in character
and origin from the Schumann resonances.
What I am saying here is that ENERGY in the schumann resonances is about
half dependent on oscillations of the outer layer of the magnetosphere
caused by the solar winds, and yes, I think flapping is a good analogy
for that.
I am only quoting chapter and verse here, in this case from an academic
book called "The Schumann Resonances" (author I forgot) which I read
about 6 months ago, but I recall that point clearly because I never
heard the point mentioned before. I always thought, like most, that the
source of energy for these ocillations was lightning.
>>
>
> You should all read up on EEG research... then we can conduct a
>discussion on the issues of EEG frequencies... and anything else.   EEG
>research is a not very exact science.

OK, I have.  Now can we have our discussion, John? :-)
>
>
>> Yes, you can overlay a chart of the resonances and a chart of the
>> average EEG power spectrum and they line up pretty close.
>>
>
> This  would be like saying all people are right handed.... WHAT
>EEG spectra.... acquired how... when, and from whom?

All right. The resemblance between the EEG spectrum and the Schumann
resonances has been noticed since the earliest days of studies of ELF
and life.  Pressman's book "Electromagnetic Fields and Life" mentions it
in the early 60's. My current reference is the article "Resonances Of
Interest: EEG And ELF", Speculations In Science And Technology, V.15,
N.1, by John Kenney.

The EEG data used in this article is from "Spectral Analysis Of The EEG"
Neurophysiology, 17, 1985, Dommermuth and Molinari. According to the
Kenney paper, this is "A rather recent and comprehensive
plot of EEG responses for a large sample of human subjects".

The EEG plots for this large sample have power specturm peaks at 8.4,
14.4, 19.6, and 32 Hz.  The exact average frequencies given for the
Schumann freq is 7.8, 14.1, 20.3, and 26.2 Hz.
When these graphs are plotted over each other there is a high degree of
correspondence.

If you need more references I have more.

Fred

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 29 16:54:10 1998
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Hi Keith and all,

>> AND:  the ionosphere is NOT static.... hence the frequency caused
>>by ionosphere-earth interaction is not fixed.  It was monitored by
SQUID
>>for a 6 month period [USAF] and was found to vary from ~ 4 to 5 cps to
30
>>to 44 cps.... all types of things appeared influence it.  The ones we
saw
>>which appeared to jibe included but waere not limited to;
>
>Thats an immense variation (5-44hz), sounds like you're see various
>modes becoming more dominant. Tell us about the study.

As I just said to John, it's too immense! The Schumann resonances do
vary but never by that much.  They have a RANGE that covers nearly that,
actually 8-26 Hz. They go up at night a little.
There is all sorts of burst activity though, I forget what the freqs are
on those.
>>
>> Whistlers are EM.
>
>Uh, what do you think causes that EM radiation?

Right :-)

>> You should all read up on EEG research... then we can conduct a
>>discussion on the issues of EEG frequencies... and anything else.
EEG
>>research is a not very exact science.
>>
>
>Well, the alpha state is considered in the 7-9Hz range, right?
>And the nominal value for the schumann resonance is ~8Hz, right?
>
>So the match is pretty good, even for a "not very exact science" :^)

I base my statement on exact science.

>>> Yes, you can overlay a chart of the resonances and a chart of the
>>> average EEG power spectrum and they line up pretty close.
>>>
>>
>> This  would be like saying all people are right handed.... WHAT
>>EEG spectra.... acquired how... when, and from whom?
>
>Fred overstates here,

Not at all.  The correspondence is not an accident. All of the brain
wave spectral peaks line up with all of the ELF spectral peaks, well,
the top one is  6 Hz off...

but the point was that the earth resonances
>are in the range of brain activity.
>
>Well, as you have (belatedly) joined the discussion, I have
>a question for you. Seems a few months back you posted
>some material concerning noninvasive brain stimulation with
>large inductors pulsed with fast risetime currents

Sounds like Persinger again. I know they are treating migraines with
that, I saw it on TV :-)
>From what I hear you can do the same thing with noninductive coils or
even quartz crystals stimulated with a coil wound around them according
to the patents that Bill Wallace mentioned.

Fred



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 29 16:54:16 1998
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Hi Dennis,

Prett interesting stuff, now I have to go find a good book about this.
Do you know one?

>
>Deuterium and hydrogen atoms are different in that the former has a
neutron
>in the nucleus and the latter does not. Yet the diameter of both types
of
>atoms are about the same. This puts int question whether neutron are
really
>particles. Neutrons are charge neutral yet are associated with magnetic
field.

Is there any way of detecting slow neutrons? Is it possible that the
output of orgone generators are actually neutrons??

Fred


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 29 17:00:55 1998
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Hi Dave and all,

I wrote:

>>The ORIGINAL Smith coil is quite interesting electromagetically.
Clearly
>>it does have inductance, because if properly made the windings should
be
>>at 90 degrees.
>
You said:

>Can you explain what the 90 deg crossings have to do with inductance?
Do you
>mean the (self) inductance of each layer, the mutual inductance between
the
>2 layers (here I'm referring to 2 coils, 4 leads as the orig. Smith
coil),
>or the inductance of both coils with only 2 leads (Other later "Cad"
coil)?

I always refer to the original Smith coil when referring to the Cad
coil. What I meant was that the windings are at 90 degree angles instead
of 180 degree angles-- that is, in opposite directions :-)
In other words they are not a "cancelling" coil, like a bifilar coil
where the current is looped back.  But now that I think about it this is
a good question.  The windings at 90 degrees could be thought of as
similar to two solenoids at 90 degrees-- and these theoretically DON'T
have any mutual inductance.
These are the kind of non-couplings you see in parametric transformers.
And the original Smith coil was wound on a ferrite.  Makes you wonder
doesn't it?

>>
>>http://www.spiritweb.org/KeelyNet/Biology/cadcoil.asc.html
>
>These claims sound like they were also done with only the 2 lead kind.

It's hard to tell. I tried to find their refernce to the Smith coils in
the "Awesome Life Force" but couldn't.
That doesn't mean it isn't in there, it is a big jumble of a book.

Fred



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 29 17:37:08 1998
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Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 20:44:09 -0500
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From: Keith Nagel <knagel@cnct.com>
Subject: Re: Whistlers
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At 04:25 PM 11/29/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Sounds like Persinger again. I know they are treating migraines with
>that, I saw it on TV :-)
>>From what I hear you can do the same thing with noninductive coils or
>even quartz crystals stimulated with a coil wound around them according
>to the patents that Bill Wallace mentioned.
>
>Fred

Haven't had a chance to look at those patents, perhaps you
could summarize the mechanism by which they work? It's pretty
clear whats going on in the pulsed coil experiments, standard
physics there. I've not a clue as to why magnetic stimulation
of quartz would do anything... and only dimly could I speculate
on a non-inductive coil. Why would the vector potential affect
the brain?

K.

PS: If you saw it on TV, it must be true... 8^)

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 29 17:40:09 1998
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Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 20:38:21 -0500
To: "Vanderhooft, Mike (Sudbury)" <MVanderhooft@SUDBURY.IncoLtd.com>
Subject: Guerrilla Solar
Cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, KeelyNet@DallasTexas.net,
        Fred Walter <fredw@mks.com>
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Mike, go to this URL to download a story on turning back the meter.


http://www.homepower.com/download.htm
  
Guerrilla Solar
A story of folks that installed on-grid solar without the utility's
permission.

The above is from the Home Power Magzine - check it out!


http://www.homepower.com/

Chris

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 29 17:45:46 1998
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From: "Bill Wallace" <btech@surfsouth.com>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>, <billb@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: papf engine
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 20:32:18 -0500
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The reason I ask is that this Glenn Frazier came by my office, told me the
engine used lasers and water in some way, he works for a natural gas and
electricity aggregator out of Atlanta - just wanted some background.  Do you
know what was said about it in the Coming Energy Revolution?  The man seemed
sincere and honest in his belief this engine worked, all of us can be fooled
though.

>> Speaking of rumors, what have you heard of the papp engine (sp) and a man
>> named Glenn Frazier?
>
>Nothing recently.  I think it was mentioned in THE COMING ENERGY
>REVOLUTION.  Also, there's that Richard Feynman story, see:
>http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/feynman.html, link to "papf perpetual motion
>engine".   (If the Papp engine was real, then Feynman's hostile, skeptical
>prejudgement actually got somebody killed!)
>


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 29 18:19:58 1998
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Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 20:19:51 -0600 (CST)
From: Zack Widup <w9sz@prairienet.org>
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On Sun, 29 Nov 1998, William Beaty wrote:

> 
> PS   Regarding theory, I hope everyone recalls this freenrg-L rule:
> 
> 2. HEAVY ON EXPERIMENTALISM.  Or theory-led experiments.  Or theoretical
>    implications of actual experiments.  This is not a forum for all those
>    controversial physics theories being ignored by mainstream science. Try
>    NEOTECH for those.  But if your theory leads directly to interesting,
>    testable, real-world phenomena, then by all means discuss the experimental
>    possibilites.  If your experiments reveal anomalies not predicted by ANY
>    theory, definitely jump right in and discuss your findings.  Also it's
>    very acceptable to publish theoretical work on a web page and announce its
>    presence here.
> 
> Is NEOTECH permanently defunct?  Are their any other 'alternative theory'
> discussion lists active anywhere?
> 

Yes, unfortunately.  On 20 October 1997 Glenda announced that she would 
either have to close the xbn.shore.net account that NEOTECH was running 
under, or find a new list manager as she couldn't afford to keep it going.  
It had been pretty quiet there for some months before that, anyway.  In 
November of 1997 I sent an e-mail to the list to see if it was still active, 
and it was defunct by then.

The only other "alternative theory" group I know of is vortex-l  :-)

Zack


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 29 18:21:35 1998
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Subject: Re: Brain coils, was Whistlers
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Hi Keith and all,
At 08:44 PM 11/29/98 -0500, you wrote:
> I've not a clue as to why magnetic stimulation
>of quartz would do anything... and only dimly could I speculate
>on a non-inductive coil. Why would the vector potential affect
>the brain?
>
>K.
>
The non-inductive coils I am familiar with have 2 wires in close proximity
to each other with opposite directions, so both the B field and the vector
potential, "A" field are cancelled. Are you familiar with other kinds?
Could there be a scalar effect?

No idea about the vector potential effects on the brain? Has anyone done
brain experiments with coils with "A" fields but small B fields? The first
example that comes to mind would be to put one's head in the central hole of
a toroid coil.

-Dave

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Nov 29 20:37:07 1998
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From: William Beaty <billb@eskimo.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Zero-point Entertainment Inc
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  http://www.zpfilms.com/films.html

Is this a ripoff?

> Don Smith" is willing to show you how he researched through hundreds of
> historical patents and re-discovered their mis-understood technology.  
> See how the Earth resonates measurable Gamma frequencies that may be 
> used to power the Globe, and if you have some engineering skill, you can
> even build one for yourself. Dr. Smith is giving the technology
> away...order this video and help get the word out!" 

So, Don Smith has a working free energy device?  Or far more likely, the
device does not work, and this stuff is simply a dishonest ploy to
convince people to buy his videotape.  Oh, but the above advertizement
doesn't actually come out and *SAY* that the device really is overunity,
it just says that you can build one for yourself.  This type of dishonest
crap really sucks, it makes the free energy field look like a crowd of
lying hucksters.  All the sneering skeptics always say, "keep your hand on
your wallet," and it looks like their contempt is justified. 

Has anyone seen this video?  Am I overreacting?

If the device is real, perhaps Dr. Smith should get himself some publicity
by winning all the various "free energy" prizes.  Easy to do, if his
device really works.  If it doesn't, then he should be honest and state
this clearly in his ad, like "WARNING, NOT A FUNCTIONING OVERUNITY DEVICE,
I'VE NEVER BEEN SUCCESSFUL MYSELF, AND IF YOU BUILD THIS, IT WILL NOT
WORK."

I have no problems with people who sell books about free energy.  I'm
angered by the people who sell plans that purport to allow us to build
real working F/E devices of our very own.  These people prey on the
ignorant.

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb@eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 30 00:21:58 1998
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From: "Fred Epps" <fepps@halcyon.com>
To: "Free Energy" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Free energy: what might work, and what probably doesn't
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 23:34:50 -0800
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Hi Folks+ACE-

I sense, perhaps incorrectly, a bit of discouragement on the part of
some FE researchers, as if they had come to believe that the field is
played out and that there really isn't anything to it after all.
It can be very discouraging to work in an area where there is so much
fraud, false clamor, and let's face it, mental laziness and
incompetence.

I think it is a good time to point out that there is no lack of
technological
vitality in the free energy field.
On the contrary, I think that certain IDEAS are played out. The
persistence
in less than useful directions has created a certain disenchantment.

To illustrate the vigor of the field, here is my list of good
possibilities for OU devices. To meet my criteria, these must have:
1) Full construction details available.
2) Reasonably good documentation that it generates an output greater
than the electrical input.
3) Reasonably stable performance, in other words it will keep going
without constant retooling.
4) No nukes-- no use radioactive materials-- a personal bias I can't get
around.

Because of time limitations this list is drawn completely from the INE
database. I have lots of lesser known inventions I could include, but I
would need to organize that material first. And there are many other
interesting ideas in that database but documentation or test results are
too scanty to merit inclusion.  This includes many that I heartily wish
I could include, like the devices of Moray, Tesla, Hendershot, Hubbard,
Keely, etc.

If your favorite machine has not been included here please write and say
why it should be. If you have some reason why one should not be
included, please do the same. Please base your argument on test
results or at least anecdotal reports. In my opinion, there is no point
in
discussing any machine that doesn't have documentation of some sort.

I have tried hard not to base this list on my personal biases but on
what
information is available. The exception is my bias against nukes.
However I have attached plenty of my biased comments to the devices
chosen :-)

Of course there is plenty of room for error and I ask forgiveness for my
presumption in even attempting such a grand overall evaluation, which is
bound to be flawed. Nonetheless I think it needs to be attempted, and
the
results are not discouraging.

1) Water arc explosions. There is excellent evidence from the research
of Peter Graneau and company that there is excess energy involved in arc
explosions through water.
2) Cold fusion.  Of course :-)  Some forms of cold fusion may be related
to the arc experiments above.
3) Autogenous pulse discharge device. The Correa patents. Again,
documentation is pretty good here. And are we beginning to see a
pattern?
4) Capacitive discharge motor - The Gray motor worked and worked well
according to all accounts. Again we see fast pulses.
5) Newman machine-- despite the hyperbole on both sides of the fence
here, it can be reasonably concluded that there is something to this.
In the arc, I believe, which means that most of what is said about it is
misdirected. It's the most controversial item by far, and I would love
to have
left it off, but it would not have been intellectually honest for me to
do so.
6) Water hydrolysis. Reports of anomalously efficient hydrolysis have
not gone away, although specific claims have been discounted.
7) Kawai motor - the patent claims OU. This simple and archetypal magnet
motor deserves further testing. Maybe it has and I don't know about
it...

Some of these ideas are getting the attention they deserve. The cold
fusion area and the Newman machine both have many strong advocates. I
haven't seen any replications of the Kawai motor, but maybe there is
some
reason why it is not considered as good as it looks.
In the case of the Correa device or the Gray motor it may be that the
machines as described are just too complicated, and need to be broken
down into simpler experimental situations.
I am sure that the Graneau group is proceeding apace with water arc
experiments, but that doesn't mean there isn't plenty of room for
experimentation here. Same for hydrolysis, there are a number of
promising patents along this line. I like the Puharich work myself.
Even though there is some work going on in each of these areas, it seems
to
me there is plenty of room for experimentation that finds the
common thread between many of them.

Even more biased comments:
The Kawai motor as a POSSIBLE exception, it is clear to me that
magnetic motors, and all electromagnetic systems that do not include
sparks or arcs are not all that promising.  It is not for me to say that
they are a waste of time, but in the way of triage they would be some of
the
first to go. My rule of thumb would be, if it doesn't contain an arc,
spark or
plasma discharge, then it is probably not worth the trouble to
investigate
further.
The same applies doubly for all systems based on mechanical actions. The
inefficiencies of moving parts almost insure that even a system that
somehow got energy from inertial forces or whatever will not be OU in
the end, and that is what counts. That doesn't mean that interesting
physics can't be done in this area-- there are all sorts of peculiar
effects
with rotating bodies that bear investigation.

The real question in my mind is why many go over and over the same
fallow ground in hopes that something will be found in it.  Maybe this
is due to the +ACI-looking under the lamppost syndrome+ACI-.  It is easy to do
experiments with bar magnets, and they are fun and cool.  The same
applies to gyroscopes etc. It is not at all as easy to learn plasma
physics or vacuum pumps or electrodynamics etc... So people
continually dig through the same well-ploughed ground in hope that
something was missed.  Well, really, it wasn't.  As an idle theorist and
library researcher, I plead utter hypocrisy here :-)

The other aspect of the situation may be the +ACI-Not Invented Here+ACI-
syndrome.
All of the machines I have mentioned are already in existence.  If you
are a talented inventor or scientist with a lot of ideas, you are not as
likely to spend your time retesting the Correa device, covered by a
patent, as you are to spend it trying to think of some new angle all
your own.  Well and good, if your objective is to further the cause of
YOU, but if your objective is to further the cause of OU, then I suggest
that you might do well to consider hammering away at the technical
problems involved in bringing one of these already extant machines into
real use.

Now like any pat statements there are a few holes in my little story.
The biggest and blackest hole of all is that one called the UNKNOWN.
There is a gigantic area of inexplicable energy phenomena, involving,
for
instance, Orgone, time, scalar and torsion waves, ad infinitum. There is
much valuable research going on in these areas, and I am actively
engaged in it.  But none of it is likely to make a impact in energy
independence or the environmental situation (or for that matter my
wallet +ADs--) in the next few years.  Nonetheless that is where many minds
will turn, quite naturally. And that is good. But in my opinion there is
a pressing need for at least some researchers to get together in
groups and cooperate to  get one of these more immediately
promising systems on line.

I have become convinced over the last year that a new model of internet
science is being developed, based on group cooperation at a distance.
The logistics problems are great, but this form of group process can get
results.
Jean-louis Naudin's projects with many researchers show how this can
work
as an ideal: simultaneous experimentation and free sharing of results.
A brief survey of the approaches available indicates that there are no
ultimate
technical obstacles in the way.
If there are any obstacles they are based on the human desire to attach
to
a fixed approach to reality rather than going with WHAT WORKS.

Well there you have it, my thoughts on the state of the art, such as
they are, and
such as it is.
Of course I welcome comments, and of course even if I didn't, I would
get them :-)

Fred


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 30 02:17:02 1998
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From: "Dennis C. Lee" <atech@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: implosion energy
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Hi;


At 04:28 PM 11/29/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Hi Dennis,
>
>Prett interesting stuff, now I have to go find a good book about this.
>Do you know one?

Living Energies by Callum Coats


>>Deuterium and hydrogen atoms are different in that the former has a
>neutron
>>in the nucleus and the latter does not. Yet the diameter of both types
>of
>>atoms are about the same. This puts int question whether neutron are
>really
>>particles. Neutrons are charge neutral yet are associated with magnetic
>field.
>
>Is there any way of detecting slow neutrons? Is it possible that the
>output of orgone generators are actually neutrons??

Do you mean accumulators like the layered boxes? Or, do you mean something
like the cloudbuster? Well, either way, I haven't really though of such
inferences before but you may have a good point to consider seriously.

Regards;
Dennis



Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 30 07:10:51 1998
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Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 06:56:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Adrian <improvization@rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: implosion energy
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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A theory came out in 1985 called Symmetrical energy Structures. Uing
einstein space-time geometries, all physical constants were generated.
Interestingly, an explanation for 
for the Neutron was given, that it is actually a balck hole, and the
proton, a neutron which created an electron-positron pair at the event
horizon. The positron is strected by gravity around the neutron, and
the electron orbits around the neutron, which has a resultant positve
charge.....and hence an equal potivitve charge value.


===

Adrian 

improvization@rocketmail.com





---"Dennis C. Lee" <atech@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> Hi;
> 
> At 12:49 PM 11/29/98 -0800, you wrote:
> 
> (snip)
> 
> >>Schauberger called this the molecular 'compression of
> >dematerialization' or
> >>implosion.
> >
> >What was his reason for calling it dematerialization?
> 
> The electrons and protons would compress to the point of charge
cancellation
> and they would go to a higher dimension. This would leave the
blue-white
> glow of the neutron magnetic energy.
> 
> (snip)
> 
> >>Viktor Schauberger thought of neutrons, not as discrete particles,
but
> >as a
> >>magnetic cement (it is interesting that deuterium and hydrogen are
> >about the
> >>same diameter) that resonates with the electric fields of both
proton
> >and
> >>electron to form stable atomic structures. Under certain conditions,
> >>electrons and protons of opposite charges and direction of spin are
> >forced
> >>into collision and annihilate one another (go to a higher
dimension).
> >The
> >>glowing bluish - white discharge is supposedly this freed neutronic
> >energy.
> >
> >Pretty similar to what I came up with, except that the particles are
> >much smaller than neutrons, or electrons, for that matter. But they
are
> >electrically neutral, and at the same time they attract charge.
> 
> Deuterium and hydrogen atoms are different in that the former has a
neutron
> in the nucleus and the latter does not. Yet the diameter of both
types of
> atoms are about the same. This puts int question whether neutron are
really
> particles. Neutrons are charge neutral yet are associated with
magnetic field.
> 
> Regards;
> Dennis
> 
> 
> Tall Ships
> http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html
> 
> 

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 30 07:15:55 1998
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From: Adrian <improvization@rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: implosion energy
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Theorectically.....an electron capture should generate the nergy
equivalnet to that of an eletron's mass, and the proton wieght should
be the mass of a neutron + an eletron !



===

Adrian 

improvization@rocketmail.com





---Adrian <improvization@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>
> A theory came out in 1985 called Symmetrical energy Structures. Uing
> einstein space-time geometries, all physical constants were generated.
> Interestingly, an explanation for 
> for the Neutron was given, that it is actually a balck hole, and the
> proton, a neutron which created an electron-positron pair at the event
> horizon. The positron is strected by gravity around the neutron, and
> the electron orbits around the neutron, which has a resultant positve
> charge.....and hence an equal potivitve charge value.
> 
> 
> ===
> 
> Adrian 
> 
> improvization@rocketmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---"Dennis C. Lee" <atech@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi;
> > 
> > At 12:49 PM 11/29/98 -0800, you wrote:
> > 
> > (snip)
> > 
> > >>Schauberger called this the molecular 'compression of
> > >dematerialization' or
> > >>implosion.
> > >
> > >What was his reason for calling it dematerialization?
> > 
> > The electrons and protons would compress to the point of charge
> cancellation
> > and they would go to a higher dimension. This would leave the
> blue-white
> > glow of the neutron magnetic energy.
> > 
> > (snip)
> > 
> > >>Viktor Schauberger thought of neutrons, not as discrete particles,
> but
> > >as a
> > >>magnetic cement (it is interesting that deuterium and hydrogen are
> > >about the
> > >>same diameter) that resonates with the electric fields of both
> proton
> > >and
> > >>electron to form stable atomic structures. Under certain
conditions,
> > >>electrons and protons of opposite charges and direction of spin
are
> > >forced
> > >>into collision and annihilate one another (go to a higher
> dimension).
> > >The
> > >>glowing bluish - white discharge is supposedly this freed
neutronic
> > >energy.
> > >
> > >Pretty similar to what I came up with, except that the particles
are
> > >much smaller than neutrons, or electrons, for that matter. But they
> are
> > >electrically neutral, and at the same time they attract charge.
> > 
> > Deuterium and hydrogen atoms are different in that the former has a
> neutron
> > in the nucleus and the latter does not. Yet the diameter of both
> types of
> > atoms are about the same. This puts int question whether neutron are
> really
> > particles. Neutrons are charge neutral yet are associated with
> magnetic field.
> > 
> > Regards;
> > Dennis
> > 
> > 
> > Tall Ships
> > http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html
> > 
> > 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> DO YOU YAHOO!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> 
> 

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 30 09:57:04 1998
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Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 13:03:40 -0500
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: "Dennis C. Lee" <atech@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Zero-point Entertainment Inc
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Hi;


At 08:36 PM 11/29/98 -0800, you wrote:
>
>  http://www.zpfilms.com/films.html
>
>Is this a ripoff?

(snip)

Bill; with all due respect, here is a case where experimentation and design
details have been provided, yet there is dissatisfaction stated. Perhaps
this person is not aware of the presence of you webpage. He states the
phrase free energy. Is this equivilent in definition to OU? The reaction I
read in the snipped part of this message would discourage me from further
investigation on this design given the stature of your position in this
field. Perhaps opinions should remain conservative in conditions such as
this until somebody buys the tape, builds the device, and has a peer group
study how well the prototype produced adheres to the specifications stated
in the tape.


Regards;
Dennis


Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 30 11:03:27 1998
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From: "Friendship House" <friends@pixi.com>
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Subject: Re: Free energy: what might work, and what probably doesn't
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----------
> From: Fred Epps <fepps@halcyon.com>
> To: Free Energy <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
> Subject: Free energy: what might work,

I hold US patent 3,890,161, now public domain for a chip which directly
converts heat of
any entropy grade directly into electrical power.

Fred, This is in the middle. It's not an energy cournicopia of something
for nothing but it is neglected with  an old paradigm of being
scientifically impossible and hard to set up as an art stretching chip. The
theme is that heat doesn't get stagnat but can be recycled even if uniform.
Please add this to your database.
  
 The concept is to have a vast number of nanometer scale diodes in uniform
alignment
parallel   rectify the internal thermal electromagnetic hiss of diodes
(Johnson noise)and aggregate their output.

A professional lab measured an output of somewhat more than 1/2 kTB, the
scientific
threshold of feasibility, from a commercial chip not specifically designed
to be
practical and requiring a spot of conductive paste.

This should be independently investigated and the results reported.

I anticapate 100 watts/sq.cm.performance levels based on nanofabricating
100
billion diodes/sq.cm.obtained with 34 nm rhombic tiles and assuming that
the
diodes are 50% efficient.

I expect that this invention will escape obscurity and become widely
available and usefull quickly. 

I would like the developers to follow a synergetic, open,
global, scientific, internet age model rather than the intellectual
property patent and copyright model. 

The demonstration prototypes were 2T6 gallium arsenide substrate, 5,600
2.3um gold anode plugs in glass,diode arrays fabricated at the University
of Virginia,Charlottsville. Dr.Thomas W.Crowe dept. head. He was not
investigating this use the last time I checked. Ken Zelund will have any
orders 
filled and shipped. I am independent of these people.
 Experimenters have a choice of mounting.Their diode arrays
do not have an electricly conductive layer above the anode plugs because
most
users connect to individual diodes. These chips are 10 mil wide squares.
A~2 mil border isolates the edge. Negative several tens of millivolts 
under load 
should be observed at this anode buss. Max output should be at 1/2 the open
circuit voltage. These chips cost $250 each for individuals.Other chip
types are available.The chips were immersed in pure vegetable oil to assure
temperature uniformity.
 

If you would like more information, I would be happy to provide more
details. 

Thank you,
Charles M. Brown, friends@pixi.com, fax 808-821-4483, P.O. Box 780, Kapaa,
HI
96746.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 30 11:41:50 1998
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From: "Dennis C. Lee" <atech@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: implosion energy
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Could you please give more specific reference for this material?


At 06:56 AM 11/30/98 -0800, you wrote:
>A theory came out in 1985 called Symmetrical energy Structures. Uing
>einstein space-time geometries, all physical constants were generated.
>Interestingly, an explanation for 
>for the Neutron was given, that it is actually a balck hole, and the
>proton, a neutron which created an electron-positron pair at the event
>horizon. The positron is strected by gravity around the neutron, and
>the electron orbits around the neutron, which has a resultant positve
>charge.....and hence an equal potivitve charge value.


Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 30 11:43:33 1998
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From: "Dennis C. Lee" <atech@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: implosion energy
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Could you please give more background on what you base this on?


At 07:12 AM 11/30/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Theorectically.....an electron capture should generate the nergy
>equivalnet to that of an eletron's mass, and the proton wieght should
>be the mass of a neutron + an eletron !


Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 30 12:00:41 1998
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From: Adrian <improvization@rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: implosion energy
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the book I read this from was called the theory of symmetrical energy
structures...in the book it outlines how they were able to crank out
all the constants using space-time cone geometry...i would have to
search for the book reference.......



===

Adrian 

improvization@rocketmail.com





---"Dennis C. Lee" <atech@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> Could you please give more specific reference for this material?
> 
> 
> At 06:56 AM 11/30/98 -0800, you wrote:
> >A theory came out in 1985 called Symmetrical energy Structures. Uing
> >einstein space-time geometries, all physical constants were
generated.
> >Interestingly, an explanation for 
> >for the Neutron was given, that it is actually a balck hole, and the
> >proton, a neutron which created an electron-positron pair at the
event
> >horizon. The positron is strected by gravity around the neutron, and
> >the electron orbits around the neutron, which has a resultant positve
> >charge.....and hence an equal potivitve charge value.
> 
> 
> Tall Ships
> http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html
> 
> 

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 30 12:38:45 1998
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From: "Fred Epps" <fepps@halcyon.com>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Free energy: what might work, and what probably doesn't
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Hi Charles!

>I hold US patent 3,890,161, now public domain for a chip which directly
>converts heat of
>any entropy grade directly into electrical power.

Yes I am familiar with something like that from Vernon Yater's papers on
rectification of noise power.  It sounds like the same idea, is it?
>
>Fred, This is in the middle. It's not an energy cournicopia of
something
>for nothing but it is neglected with  an old paradigm of being
>scientifically impossible and hard to set up as an art stretching chip.
The
>theme is that heat doesn't get stagnat but can be recycled even if
uniform.
>Please add this to your database.

It is quite workable from what I saw. I had already added it to MY list,
but you might want to put it in the INE database of new energy
inventions and write something up for them,  it is a major source of
information on innovative energy devices.  I based my post on this
database because of time and space limitations. The INE database is at:

http://www.padrak.com/ine/DBGUIDE.html


>
>I would like the developers to follow a synergetic, open,
>global, scientific, internet age model rather than the intellectual
>property patent and copyright model.

Unfortunately I can't help with this end of things, it sounds like a
small independent chip maker would be best.

Fred



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 30 15:47:51 1998
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Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 18:32:43 -0800
From: Bob Shannon <bshannon@tiac.net>
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Fred Epps wrote:
> 
> Bob Shannon wrote:
> 
> What is interesting here, is that measurments show that healers and
> shamans and yogi's have been measured, and found to 'lock onto' the+AD4-
> actual
> schuman signal while in their 'special states'.  We all have the same
> frequencies, but they actually 'lock on' to the same attractor as the
> schuman signals.

(fred's AD+4's removed)
 
> I would be interested in where you heard about this?  I have heard Bob
> Beck did some experiments with Andrija Puharich where he fed real time
> schumann signals back to people and they became telepathic, but I have
> never found a source for this rumor.  I would like to hear any concrete
> imformation about any studies that have been done on psychoactive
> effects of schumann signals.

I heard this directly from a witness who met Hutchinson during an
investigation
into the effect.  Hutchinson apparently demonstrated this ability to the
investigators.

The co-entrainment effects, I do not think Beck would make those results
known, in a published format.  This type of technology is best kept at
the 'trade secret' level.

But the work done on 'special' people falling into phase lock with the
real
time schuman signals was performed at the Heart Math Institute, I'm
currently 
awaiting the written references, etc.

> BTW, there appear to be definite changes in psychic abilities with
> geomagnetic storms.  I found these papers this week:
> 
> http://www.jsasoc.com/library.html

Yep, and that is just scratching the surface!

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 30 15:52:47 1998
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Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 01:52:51 +0200
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix@verisoft.com.tr>
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------41FF1D21783E6891C76DD764
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Hi all,

Few days ago, by examining material about the exp. done by J.Naudin, I noticed an incorrect setup on measuring mechanical output power. I correspond several times with J.N., drawing figures about the very simple error, and how to correct it (again very si
mply), but not able convince J.N. about severity of the error, (which probably cause to measure less output power than it produce),  to duplicate measurements with proper configuration. I am writing this letter for to not invalidate the experiment results
 or OU claims, but rather emphasize  poor methodology which keep such reports scientifically unfavorable and reduce the reliability.



Attached gif image show the incorrect setup, causing three errors:

1) Incorrect arm length. effective arm length is A-C instead of A-B

2) Generated moment by the motor is (m), but only component (p) is measured by the balance.

3) Slight displacement on horizontal direction of the pin which should occurs when forces are applied could be blocked partially by friction on point (C), eventually not allowing the arm move freely (downward) and causing unpredictable errors.

I did not include the correct setup figure should be, is obvious, can be obtained by simply by moving the "point contact" from (C) to (B).


 
             
Regards,

hamdi ucar
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--------------41FF1D21783E6891C76DD764--


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 30 15:54:52 1998
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Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 18:41:07 -0800
From: Bob Shannon <bshannon@tiac.net>
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Fred Epps wrote:
> 
> R.A. Davis said:
> 
> Wonder if anybody's working with this.  Supposedly the coil has zero
> impedance which might suggest its use in an overunity device.

This is not true!

Zero inductance simply means that no energy is stored in the magnetic
field!

> Dave Dameron said this:
> 
> In my opinion, I think most of the claims for a caduceus coil such as
> described in:
> http://www.newphys.se/elektromagnum/physics/KeelyNet/energy/caduceus.asc
> are not true. Why?? As wired, it doesn't do what is claimed.

I agree completely.

> Take a normal solenoid coil wound from a single length of wire, but in 2
> layers. The start and end of the windings are at the same end. The
> magnetic
> fields of the 2 layers ADD, the currents rotate in the same direction in
> both layers.However, the individual turns do not lie exactly on top of
> each
> other or are parallel. One layer is wound as a left-hand helix, while
> the
> other is a right-hand helix, so the turns of the 2 layers cross. You can
> wind a simple one yourself if it isn't clear.
> Thus a caduceus coil as described above is just an 2 layer solenoid with
> the
> turns spaced. It has inductance for example. I think the characteristics
> could be better described to a 4 lead +ACI-caduceus+ACI- coil, currents opposed,
> or
> an opposing bifilar coil.
> 
> Almost all of the stories about the Caduceus coil are derived from one
> article, +ACI-The Smith Coil+ACI- by Gaston Burridge. I'm looking at that
> article now, and the coil shown there is the one where the currents
> enter at one end and then go in opposite spiral directions as they
> travel to the other end. I'm not sure where the idea came from that the
> other configuration is a Smith coil but it clearly is not. As Dave says,
> the fields support each other in that setup.
> The ORIGINAL Smith coil is quite interesting electromagetically. Clearly
> it does have inductance, because if properly made the windings should be
> at 90 degrees. This right anlge across the bump seems to be key to the
> effects. In any case it does not duplicate the so-called +ACI-non-inductive+ACI-
> bifilar coil.

A true bifilar coil is two counter-wound spirals.  Each spiral takes
turns
looping under, then over the opposing spiral winding.

They are the devil to wind.  Only one person I know can wind them well.

They are inductive, they do not sum flux to zero, or superpose flux in
any
way.  They do not produce 'scalar waves'.

> I have surveyed all the literature about these coils that I can find.
> Aside from the Burridge article, with whatever inaccuracies it may
> contain (he clearly states in the article that he was not told much
> about the cad coil reseach, and that there were two competing groups
> working on it, which kept secrets from each other, and from him) there
> is the file here:
> 
> http://www.spiritweb.org/KeelyNet/Biology/cadcoil.asc.html
> 
> And the biological experiments of Glen Rein.
> 
> One interesting commonality between these last two sources is the
> existence of E/S fields in the area of the coil. The Keelynet file says:
> 
> +ACI-The only effect which could be attributed to  this experiment
> (although  there  are  no  direct
> linkages) was that the house became +AGA-charged'. The potential in
> relation  to the human body had  changed  and  now static shocks became
> annoyingly   common.   This effect lasted approximately three months and
> then dissipated to a normal level. No other unusual going ons were
> happening in the house at the time.+ACI-

During the winter, right?

This report is so lacking in any detail or signs of objectivity that it
should be treated as suspect at best.
 
A major problem here is that the same term (cad coil) is being used to
describe a number of different winding geometeries.

Because details are so lacking in the assorted reports, its impossible
to dupilicate and verify any of the claims!

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 30 15:57:05 1998
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Fred Epps wrote:
> 
> On 25/11/98 02:20:13 bshannon+AEA-tiac.net wrote :
> 
> +AD4- Also potentially important is the fact that Hutchison was able to
> +AD4-  reproduce many of his effects WITHOUT equipment of any form+ACE-
> 
> Hi Bob+ACE-
> 
> It seems like I am bugging you a lot for references but I just can't
> pass this one up. Where did you learn this?

This story was related to me by a researcher who traveled (from the
U.K.) to meet Hutchinson and verify the reports.  Hutchinson told the
investigators about this skill, and apparently gave a small
demonstration of this ability.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 30 15:59:22 1998
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Anton Rager wrote:

<snip>

> 3 - This probably relates more to the Newman motor, but does anyone
> have a good idea what part of the spectrum a spark-gap radiates into?
> [obviously light, but what other RF?] Is it across the board like
> lightning?  Perhaps this has something to do with the Newman motor's
> odd results [back EMF due to spark-gap interference?]

All across the board, just like lightning, the full spectrum from DC to
light.

The currently popular idea that the arc is important to Newman's machine
is
not a verifed fact.  We should be much more careful about such
assumptions.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 30 16:24:16 1998
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Subject: Re: implosion energy
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>Deuterium and hydrogen atoms are different in that the former has a neutron
>in the nucleus and the latter does not. Yet the diameter of both types of
>atoms are about the same. This puts int question whether neutron are really
>particles. Neutrons are charge neutral yet are associated with magnetic field.

Since the diameter of an atom is defined by the outmost electron, and the 
distance is related to the charge of the nucleus, it shouldn't change the 
diameter much. (someone please correct me if i'm wrong here) It's an 
interesting theory.. i'd like to hear more about it.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 30 16:51:08 1998
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John Schnurer wrote:
> 
>         Dear fre,
> 
>         Acquisition of low level magnetic effects can be achived in urban
> areas.... it requires correct instrumentation.
> 
>         AND:  the ionosphere is NOT static.... hence the frequency caused
> by ionosphere-earth interaction is not fixed.  It was monitored by SQUID
> for a 6 month period [USAF] and was found to vary from ~ 4 to 5 cps to 30
> to 44 cps.... all types of things appeared influence it.  The ones we saw
> which appeared to jibe included but waere not limited to;
> 
>         moon
>         magnetic storms
>         distortions of the photo and magnetosphere
>         electrical discharge and storm activity.

<snip>

Hold on here...

We have several different things all going by the same name.

There is the energy content of the schuman signals, which does indeed
extend
well above 44 cps, and the different resonance peaks (~7.83, ~12.67,
etc.) at
issue here under the same general term 'schuman resonance'.

The spectral content of the actual schuman signal is broad, with very
low 'lumps'
at some freqnencies, such as ~around~ 8 cps, and 12-13 cps.

Because these are not sharp (high Q) resonances, there is some
disagreement on
the exact freqnencies.  Also, these resonance 'lumps' on a spectrogram
of the schuman signals vary in freqnecy, they 'slide' up and down the
spectrum at a 
fairly fast pace, as if weakly phase modulated.  This makes measuring
the exact
freqency a statistical measurment.

It is this statistical data that claims to support the notion that the
first and second Schuman resonance 'peaks' to converge towards a phi
based relationship at 7.83 and 12.67 cps (clearly a phi ratio).

The relativly fast frequency shifts add signifigent energy at higher
freqnencies.

In addition to this, the relative amplitude of the first and second
resonance peaks changes over time, sometimes rather quickly.  At times,
the first resonance peak is totally lost below the level of the low
energy background noise.  In such a case, would you then claim that the
7.83 cps resonacne 'slid' all the way up to 12.67 cps?

We do not see the 8 to 9 hz signal 'shift up' to 44+ cps.  This does not
happen.
You need to look at the total energy over freqnency, over time.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 30 17:14:01 1998
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Fred Epps wrote:
> 
> Hi Keith and all,

<snip>

Lets set aside the numbers, we are talking about a real signal, whatever
way
we convert it into numbers.  

Lets talk about the reality of the signals in question rather than beat
the
numbers into dust.

> >> Whistlers are EM.
> >
> >Uh, what do you think causes that EM radiation?
> 
> Right :-)

Here we have THE real questions in this discussion!

What causes the schuman resonaces?  What causes whistlers?

I'll take the second question.

One THEORY is that nearby lightning strikes have their energy 'ducted',
around the Earth only to arrive near its point of origin.  During this
'ducting', interaction with the geomagnetic field and magnetosphere
distorts the signal (originally a 'spheric') into the form of a
Whistler.

But this is a hotly contended theory, even amongst conventional
scientists.

Truth is, we dont know the answer for sure.  

Some evidence strongly suggests that this 'ducting' theory is full of
hot air.

The time delay between a 'spheric and its associated whistler (they are
associated, that much seems clear) describes an astronomically long
ducting
path (literal usage).  This apparent path lenght does not appear to
match the
specral content of the resulting whistler, suggesting that the
geomagnetic field
interaction concept it either much simpler than the reality, or it wrong
altogether.

The oddest thing is the apparent clustering of whistlers,  and their
relativly localized nature.  Whistlers seem to happen in clusters and
groups.  Within each group, several different 'apparent ducting path
lengths' will be seen.

Signals of such frequencies should be wide spread, but this is not true
of whistler signals.  If this is due to the ducting, why are there
multiple ducts from the same general spot, to the same general spot, of
differing lenghts?

Is the downward frequency shift due to a changing duct lenght?

What of 'sweepers', the anti-whistler that sweeps upwards in frequency?

Very little is known about the electrical environment.  Recent
observations
of totally unknown forms of electrical activity around thunderstorms is
opening
a door to the unknown.

We cannot easily see this electrical world, but with a few transistors
we can listen in!

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 30 17:25:22 1998
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Keith Nagel wrote:
> 
> At 04:25 PM 11/29/98 -0800, you wrote:
> >Sounds like Persinger again. I know they are treating migraines with
> >that, I saw it on TV :-)
> >>From what I hear you can do the same thing with noninductive coils or
> >even quartz crystals stimulated with a coil wound around them according
> >to the patents that Bill Wallace mentioned.
> >
> >Fred
> 
> Haven't had a chance to look at those patents, perhaps you
> could summarize the mechanism by which they work? It's pretty
> clear whats going on in the pulsed coil experiments, standard
> physics there. I've not a clue as to why magnetic stimulation
> of quartz would do anything... and only dimly could I speculate
> on a non-inductive coil. Why would the vector potential affect
> the brain?

Now there is another question I'll bite at!

The Aharnov-Bohm effect clearly shows that the free magnetic vector
potential alone can and does cause a phase shift in electron wave
functions at a distance.  Changing an electron's wave function is a 
quantum process, so we are seeing a macroscopic quantum field at work.

The brain encodes a great deal of information as phase encoded signals.

If we alter the phase of electron wave functions at the highly
non-linear ionic junctions between neurons, we can alter the encoding of
data within
the brain itself.

Some theories go so far as to suggest that the brain uses quantum
computational, holographic, and even Bose Eienstine Condenstate-like
processes in its operation.  These effects could be effected more
directly
with the free vector potential field if these theories hold water.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 30 17:25:23 1998
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I'm working on it.

Fred

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 30 17:25:37 1998
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Hi Bob and all,
>>
>> R.A. Davis said:
>>
>> Wonder if anybody's working with this.  Supposedly the coil has zero
>> impedance which might suggest its use in an overunity device.
>
>This is not true!
>
>Zero inductance simply means that no energy is stored in the magnetic
>field!

Well,. inductance or impedance, either one, means nothing as far as an
OU device.
>
>> Dave Dameron said this:
>>
>> In my opinion, I think most of the claims for a caduceus coil such as
>> described in:
>>
http://www.newphys.se/elektromagnum/physics/KeelyNet/energy/caduceus.asc
>> are not true. Why?? As wired, it doesn't do what is claimed.
>
>I agree completely.

Agreed.

>
>A true bifilar coil is two counter-wound spirals.  Each spiral takes
>turns
>looping under, then over the opposing spiral winding.

You mean _caduceus_ coil don't you?
>
>They are the devil to wind.  Only one person I know can wind them well.
>
>They are inductive,

No reason to think they wouldn't be.

 they do not sum flux to zero, or superpose flux in
>any
>way.

Again, no reason to think they would.

They do not produce 'scalar waves'.

The fact that they do not do any of these things says nothing about
their actual properties, which as far as I know have not been
determined. Maybe it is all a bunch of nonsense, but Wibert Smith, a
respected engineer, thought otherwise. I and others have gleaned just
about everything that is publicly available on the subject, and there
ain't much of any use.
It sounds like you know of actual tests on the Smith coil-- the coil
with two counterwound spirals and four leads.  If so, what were the
results?

>
The only effect which could be attributed to  this experiment
>> (although  there  are  no  direct
>> linkages) was that the house became charged. The potential in
>> relation  to the human body had  changed  and  now static shocks
became
>> annoyingly   common.   This effect lasted approximately three months
and
>> then dissipated to a normal level. No other unusual going ons were
>> happening in the house at the time.
>
>During the winter, right?

I know what you are getting at.  If that was the only thing in the
report I would agree.  Did you read the rest of it, Bob?  They are
either lying or there is something interesting there.  It is not a case
of misidentification of a standard effect.
>
>This report is so lacking in any detail or signs of objectivity that it
>should be treated as suspect at best.

Of course, but when coupled with another report describing a similar
feature it points to a possible area of investigation.
>
>A major problem here is that the same term (cad coil) is being used to
>describe a number of different winding geometeries.

Agreed.  I suggest that the term _caduceus_ coil be reserved for the 1
wire couterwound coil which folds on itself.  The _Smith_ coil for the 2
wire version with 2 outputs. The term _ bifilar_ should not be used for
a noninductive coil of any sort, because it simply describes a winding
pattern, not the amount of inductance. How about calling a noninductive
coil a _noninductive coil_ or maybe that is too confusing? :-)

>
>Because details are so lacking in the assorted reports, its impossible
>to dupilicate and verify any of the claims!

But it is not impossible to do research onthe possible variants.

I'll use the Smith coil as a microcosm of this Alice In Wonderland
reality we are in here. Keep in mind through all my little story that I
am an optimist with great faith in human nature, and a sense that there
actually IS something to the hoopla about the Smith coil.
Almost 40 years ago a guy named Smith talks to a medium communicating
with ETs who gives him a design for an unusual coil.  He, being a very
openminded guy, does numerous experiments with it-- we think, because he
never publishes them. He forms a secret group to do this research, which
breaks into two competing groups, neither of whom reveal their findings.
A writer with no particular technical skills talks to somebody connected
to Smith and a couple of shortwave operators who tell him their
observations, and publishes a single article in a psychic magazine,
which contains much speculation on what HE would do if he knew what he
was doing, but very little technical information.
Over a period of 20 years or so the coil captures the imagination of
various speculative writers on alternative science, and much is written
about it with no experimental foundation. In the course of this science
fiction extravaganza, the actual definition of the coil is obscured.
A few people actually go and do tests on what they think are Smith coils
or caduceus coils or SOMETHING and a few even publish them, usually in
fragmentary form, with few details or numbers.
These few tests are fed back into the alternative science
countercultural mythology to generate more hype and more misbegotten
claims.
At the same time, of course, there is probably some group of serious
amateur scientists somewhere that ran full tests on the thing and has
either discovered that there is nothing to it-- and why in the world
would you publish negative results?..that's not exciting...OR they
discover that it does work and is lucrative or dangerous or who knows
what.  In either case the information does not get published.
Since no solid information is ever printed that either dispells the
myths or proves the reality, more speculative articles are written. And
the wheel turns...
All this with a relatively simple device, not nearly as complicated as a
cyclotron :-)

Fred






From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 30 17:25:37 1998
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Hi Bob,

>
>(fred's AD+4's removed)

Sorry, I'm still working on it.
>
>> I would be interested in where you heard about this?  I have heard
Bob
>> Beck did some experiments with Andrija Puharich where he fed real
time
>> schumann signals back to people and they became telepathic, but I
have
>> never found a source for this rumor.  I would like to hear any
concrete
>> imformation about any studies that have been done on psychoactive
>> effects of schumann signals.
>
>I heard this directly from a witness who met Hutchinson during an
>investigation
>into the effect.  Hutchinson apparently demonstrated this ability to
the
>investigators.

OK, he didn't tell me that. Let's go to the horses mouth.  I will ask
him.  It is obviously rather an imprtant point about his work.  If it is
PK or something on his part then there is little use in trying to
duplicate it.
>
>The co-entrainment effects, I do not think Beck would make those
results
>known, in a published format.  This type of technology is best kept at
>the 'trade secret' level.

Right.  The indications are certainly there that the effects of using
Schumann type signals would be great.
>
>But the work done on 'special' people falling into phase lock with the
>real
>time schuman signals was performed at the Heart Math Institute, I'm
>currently
>awaiting the written references, etc.

Ok, I'll check thier site, and I would like to see that stuff too if I
could.
>
>> BTW, there appear to be definite changes in psychic abilities with
>> geomagnetic storms.  I found these papers this week:
>>
>> http://www.jsasoc.com/library.html
>
>Yep, and that is just scratching the surface!

No doubt!

Fred
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 30 17:35:32 1998
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dave dameron wrote:
> 
> Hi Keith and all,
> At 08:44 PM 11/29/98 -0500, you wrote:
> > I've not a clue as to why magnetic stimulation
> >of quartz would do anything... and only dimly could I speculate
> >on a non-inductive coil. Why would the vector potential affect
> >the brain?
> >
> >K.
> >
> The non-inductive coils I am familiar with have 2 wires in close proximity
> to each other with opposite directions, so both the B field and the vector
> potential, "A" field are cancelled. Are you familiar with other kinds?
> Could there be a scalar effect?

Would this be a two wire, bifilar coil, with one end shorted?

If so, that geometery is a known 'scalar' emitter.

> No idea about the vector potential effects on the brain? Has anyone done
> brain experiments with coils with "A" fields but small B fields? The first
> example that comes to mind would be to put one's head in the central hole of
> a toroid coil.

I'm confused about your statement that a non inductive coil has its A
field
canceled.  What "A" field, its not inductive, so there is no 'field' at
all, right?

Gelenas's patents describe a conventional toroid as an "A" field
emitter, but
the B field is in full force, inside the core, so there is no
superposition, long
thought to be critical for scalar production.

In the Sci-Am article, Quantum Interference and the Aharov-Bohm Effect,
a free A field is produced by coating a small torriodal magnet (flux
inside the hole, along the center axis) in a superconductor.  This
totally precludes the B field by superposition, freeing the A field.  

Exactly what is the difference between this case and the shorted bifilar
coil described above?

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 30 17:55:56 1998
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At 08:12 PM 11/30/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Now there is another question I'll bite at!

Always happy to stimulate dialog. 

>
>The Aharnov-Bohm effect clearly shows that the free magnetic vector
>potential alone can and does cause a phase shift in electron wave
>functions at a distance.  Changing an electron's wave function is a 
>quantum process, so we are seeing a macroscopic quantum field at work.

Yup mostly. 

>
>The brain encodes a great deal of information as phase encoded signals.
>

Huh?

>If we alter the phase of electron wave functions at the highly
>non-linear ionic junctions between neurons, we can alter the encoding of
>data within
>the brain itself.
>

Huh^2 ?

You are suggesting that the brain makes a good vector potential
detector? Firstly, the vector potential is present in ordinary
coil configurations; why isn't my brain being reprogrammed
when I fire up that megawatt pulse generator in my study? 
(no cheap shots, please :^) Secondly, the brain is way too
"hot" to have electron wave coherence. Short of sticking
ones head in a vat of LN, I don't see how you could have
the necessary conditions for coherence to see these quantum
effects. 

I'd add the caveat that, yes, if I stuck the coil from said
pulse generator on my forehead, and let her rip, I might
get "zapped" but that's standard eddy current effect.

K.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 30 18:02:00 1998
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Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 03:16:40 +0100
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To: Newman-L Mailing List <newman-l@emachine.com>,
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        Jean Louis Naudin <jnaudin509@aol.com>, Tim Vaughan <tv@juno.com>,
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Subject: http://www.overunity.com/newman2/   updated !
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Hi,

I have updated my site with my latest Newman
experiments.

Comments welcome.

Best regards, Stefan.

--
Hartmann Multimedia Service,  Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
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email: harti@harti.com  Web site: http://www.harti.com
http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB !

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 30 18:14:12 1998
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From: HLafonte@aol.com
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Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:51:48 EST
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Hello all,
I have updated my web site with a design combination of 4 theories that I am
at the moment testing. I would like to have some help in the testing so I can
compare test results. If anyone is willing to help me please send email with
any questions you might have. I can post a list of materials on my web site
with fabrication details if I get any response. Below is the operational
theory, it is a combination of SMOT, a basic flux diverting switch, a balance
system (attraction/repulsion) and flux circuit design of my own. If anyone is
not familiar with basic magneto operation I can help with drawings and
information to you by email. I'm very excited about this design. You might
want to look at this.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
http://members.aol.com/HLafonte/lafonteresearchsite1web.html
or <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/HLafonte/lafonteresearchsite1web.html">
HLafonte's Home Page</A>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 30 18:46:15 1998
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Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:42:28 -0800
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> I'm confused about your statement that a non inductive coil has its A
> field
> canceled.  What "A" field, its not inductive, so there is no 'field' at
> all, right?

A field = magnetic vector potential. There is something there, so I call
it a field. Just a use of terminology I guess ;) Really, potential suits
it better. I don't know if the A potential is cancelled or not. The B
field is, but you can't easily detect the A field.
 
> Gelenas's patents describe a conventional toroid as an "A" field
> emitter, but
> the B field is in full force, inside the core, so there is no
> superposition, long
> thought to be critical for scalar production.

According to my limited investigations of toroid rings using DC current
(or just magnets in a ring) the A potential is the strongest in the
center axis of the toroid coil...like described in Gelinas's patents.
Supposedly "curl free". I don't know if any unusual effects produced by
the A potential would be scalar or not. The "A" is a vector, but there
is theory that it might interact with the zero-point field in some way.
My guess would be that it "coheres" the ZPF, if anything. Maybe scalar
waves are a different type of cohesion in the ZPF? Or an excitation of
some type? Hmmmm....excitations of a homogenous, omnipresent substance?
What might that be...the dreaded ETHER! Run away! :-) Seriously though,
it makes sense...bifilar coils supposedly cause an orthogonal change in
the ZPF. 
> 
> In the Sci-Am article, Quantum Interference and the Aharov-Bohm Effect,
> a free A field is produced by coating a small torriodal magnet (flux
> inside the hole, along the center axis) in a superconductor.  This
> totally precludes the B field by superposition, freeing the A field.

Flux inside the hole? You mean the center axis? If so, then that's not a
normal toroid coil. A normal one has the circulating B field in the
ring. The A potential is supposed to be in the axis, but not (much) B
field. Here's an idea: wind a bifilar toroidal coil, with opposing
current directions.

Kyle R. Mcallister

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 30 18:50:32 1998
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From: "Robert H. Calloway" <billc9@prysm.net>
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Subject: Re: Caduceus coils
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:39:52 -0600
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Goodness... I have never seen such a argument wich neither party knew what
they
were talking about. For instance.. They do not produce "Scalar waves".....
A true bifilar coil is two
counter wound spirals....They are inductive....Gosh fellows... do you want
to do something different???
A Smith coil is wound at 45 degree angles..as he reports it. I wind the
ones I have at 10 degrees or less.
And yes...I have many of them that I have made. Does either one of you know
what PWM is??
"Plused Width Modulation". Perhaps you both should try it and see what the
results will be.
Surprise yourself and try something different please...Let me know the
results..   Regards, Robert H. Calloway.  

Dont keep forever on the public road, going only where others have gone.
Leave the beaten track occasionally and dive into the woods. You will be
certain to find something you have never seen before...
-Alexander Graham Bell-

"Double your money by folding it inhalf and putting it back in your pocket"
                                                                           
     Source: My Dad...

----------
> From: Fred Epps <fepps@halcyon.com>
> To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: Caduceus coils
> Date: Monday, November 30, 1998 7:17 PM
> 
> Hi Bob and all,
> >>
> >> R.A. Davis said:
> >>
> >> Wonder if anybody's working with this.  Supposedly the coil has zero
> >> impedance which might suggest its use in an overunity device.
> >
> >This is not true!
> >
> >Zero inductance simply means that no energy is stored in the magnetic
> >field!
> 
> Well,. inductance or impedance, either one, means nothing as far as an
> OU device.
> >
> >> Dave Dameron said this:
> >>
> >> In my opinion, I think most of the claims for a caduceus coil such as
> >> described in:
> >>
> http://www.newphys.se/elektromagnum/physics/KeelyNet/energy/caduceus.asc
> >> are not true. Why?? As wired, it doesn't do what is claimed.
> >
> >I agree completely.
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> >
> >A true bifilar coil is two counter-wound spirals.  Each spiral takes
> >turns
> >looping under, then over the opposing spiral winding.
> 
> You mean _caduceus_ coil don't you?
> >
> >They are the devil to wind.  Only one person I know can wind them well.
> >
> >They are inductive,
> 
> No reason to think they wouldn't be.
> 
>  they do not sum flux to zero, or superpose flux in
> >any
> >way.
> 
> Again, no reason to think they would.
> 
> They do not produce 'scalar waves'.
> 
> The fact that they do not do any of these things says nothing about
> their actual properties, which as far as I know have not been
> determined. Maybe it is all a bunch of nonsense, but Wibert Smith, a
> respected engineer, thought otherwise. I and others have gleaned just
> about everything that is publicly available on the subject, and there
> ain't much of any use.
> It sounds like you know of actual tests on the Smith coil-- the coil
> with two counterwound spirals and four leads.  If so, what were the
> results?
> 
> >
> The only effect which could be attributed to  this experiment
> >> (although  there  are  no  direct
> >> linkages) was that the house became charged. The potential in
> >> relation  to the human body had  changed  and  now static shocks
> became
> >> annoyingly   common.   This effect lasted approximately three months
> and
> >> then dissipated to a normal level. No other unusual going ons were
> >> happening in the house at the time.
> >
> >During the winter, right?
> 
> I know what you are getting at.  If that was the only thing in the
> report I would agree.  Did you read the rest of it, Bob?  They are
> either lying or there is something interesting there.  It is not a case
> of misidentification of a standard effect.
> >
> >This report is so lacking in any detail or signs of objectivity that it
> >should be treated as suspect at best.
> 
> Of course, but when coupled with another report describing a similar
> feature it points to a possible area of investigation.
> >
> >A major problem here is that the same term (cad coil) is being used to
> >describe a number of different winding geometeries.
> 
> Agreed.  I suggest that the term _caduceus_ coil be reserved for the 1
> wire couterwound coil which folds on itself.  The _Smith_ coil for the 2
> wire version with 2 outputs. The term _ bifilar_ should not be used for
> a noninductive coil of any sort, because it simply describes a winding
> pattern, not the amount of inductance. How about calling a noninductive
> coil a _noninductive coil_ or maybe that is too confusing? :-)
> 
> >
> >Because details are so lacking in the assorted reports, its impossible
> >to dupilicate and verify any of the claims!
> 
> But it is not impossible to do research onthe possible variants.
> 
> I'll use the Smith coil as a microcosm of this Alice In Wonderland
> reality we are in here. Keep in mind through all my little story that I
> am an optimist with great faith in human nature, and a sense that there
> actually IS something to the hoopla about the Smith coil.
> Almost 40 years ago a guy named Smith talks to a medium communicating
> with ETs who gives him a design for an unusual coil.  He, being a very
> openminded guy, does numerous experiments with it-- we think, because he
> never publishes them. He forms a secret group to do this research, which
> breaks into two competing groups, neither of whom reveal their findings.
> A writer with no particular technical skills talks to somebody connected
> to Smith and a couple of shortwave operators who tell him their
> observations, and publishes a single article in a psychic magazine,
> which contains much speculation on what HE would do if he knew what he
> was doing, but very little technical information.
> Over a period of 20 years or so the coil captures the imagination of
> various speculative writers on alternative science, and much is written
> about it with no experimental foundation. In the course of this science
> fiction extravaganza, the actual definition of the coil is obscured.
> A few people actually go and do tests on what they think are Smith coils
> or caduceus coils or SOMETHING and a few even publish them, usually in
> fragmentary form, with few details or numbers.
> These few tests are fed back into the alternative science
> countercultural mythology to generate more hype and more misbegotten
> claims.
> At the same time, of course, there is probably some group of serious
> amateur scientists somewhere that ran full tests on the thing and has
> either discovered that there is nothing to it-- and why in the world
> would you publish negative results?..that's not exciting...OR they
> discover that it does work and is lucrative or dangerous or who knows
> what.  In either case the information does not get published.
> Since no solid information is ever printed that either dispells the
> myths or proves the reality, more speculative articles are written. And
> the wheel turns...
> All this with a relatively simple device, not nearly as complicated as a
> cyclotron :-)
> 
> Fred
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 30 19:15:35 1998
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Robert H. Calloway wrote:
> 
> Goodness... I have never seen such a argument wich neither party knew what
> they
> were talking about. For instance.. They do not produce "Scalar waves".....

Welcome to the discussion.

> A true bifilar coil is two
> counter wound spirals....They are inductive....Gosh fellows... do you want
> to do something different???

A bifilar coil, as described in books like The ARRL Radio Amateur's
Handbook
described bifilar would coils as having two windings, side by side. 
They
are not counter-wound.

If such a coil is shorted at one end, it is non-inductive.  Some claim
that
this configuration does indeed produce scalar waves.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 30 19:20:30 1998
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Subject: Re: Brain coils, was Whistlers
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Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:

<snip>
 
> A field = magnetic vector potential. There is something there, so I call
> it a field. Just a use of terminology I guess ;) Really, potential suits
> it better. I don't know if the A potential is cancelled or not. The B
> field is, but you can't easily detect the A field.

I agree, potential.  I beleive that the A field does not undergo
superposition
and is not canceled.  This is exactly what is so confusing....

If it cannot be canceled, and its a potential, why describe it as a
vector?

<snip> 

> > In the Sci-Am article, Quantum Interference and the Aharov-Bohm Effect,
> > a free A field is produced by coating a small torriodal magnet (flux
> > inside the hole, along the center axis) in a superconductor.  This
> > totally precludes the B field by superposition, freeing the A field.
> 
> Flux inside the hole? You mean the center axis? If so, then that's not a
> normal toroid coil. A normal one has the circulating B field in the
> ring. The A potential is supposed to be in the axis, but not (much) B
> field. Here's an idea: wind a bifilar toroidal coil, with opposing
> current directions.

Right, its not a torriod coil.

Its a magnet, not a coil.  Its toriodal, magnetized along its axis. 
Then coated
in a superconductor.  Normally the flux flows along the inside of the
magnet.

There is a picture in that article taken through the shielded bore of
the magnet.
In this picture you can see the interference fringe is shifted with
respect to the pattern seem around the rim of the shielded magnet.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 30 19:31:14 1998
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From: "Psy-Kosh" <joeyk19@idt.net>
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Subject: Re: Whistlers
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<What we have here is a need to snip, so.... snip> <g>

>You are suggesting that the brain makes a good vector potential
>detector? Firstly, the vector potential is present in ordinary
>coil configurations; why isn't my brain being reprogrammed
>when I fire up that megawatt pulse generator in my study?
>(no cheap shots, please :^) Secondly, the brain is way too
>"hot" to have electron wave coherence. Short of sticking
>ones head in a vat of LN, I don't see how you could have
>the necessary conditions for coherence to see these quantum
>effects.


<more snipping>

I seem to remember reading articles it both Scientific American and
Discover, that talked about "quantum consiousness." The point being is that
both pointed out that this objection is supprisingly invalid becasue certain
structures in the brain called microtubules <sp?>  are "quiet enough" to
allow for superposition effects to occur.

Psy-Kosh

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 30 19:41:39 1998
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Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 22:33:33 -0500 (EST)
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Subject: See notes...Re: Whistlers
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	Dear fre,

	Pleae see brief notes 

On Sun, 29 Nov 1998, Keith Nagel wrote:

> At 05:12 PM 11/29/98 -0500, you wrote:
> >	AND:  the ionosphere is NOT static.... hence the frequency caused 
> >by ionosphere-earth interaction is not fixed.  It was monitored by SQUID 
> >for a 6 month period [USAF] and was found to vary from ~ 4 to 5 cps to 30 
> >to 44 cps.... all types of things appeared influence it.  The ones we saw 
> >which appeared to jibe included but waere not limited to;
> 
> Thats an immense variation (5-44hz), sounds like you're see various
> modes becoming more dominant. Tell us about the study.

	No specific 'patterns' noted.  I will write more detail later.


> 
> >> If I remember
> >> >rightly, the whistlers are charged particles flowing back and forth
> >> >between the magnetic poles of the planet, executing a helical
> >
> >
> >	Whistlers are EM.
> 
> Uh, what do you think causes that EM radiation? 
> 
	Often lightning.


> >> 
> >	Solar weind is responsible for WHAT?
> >
> 
> Charged particles striking the planet.
> 
> >
> >> Yes.
> >> >
> >> >It has often been pointed out that the schumann resonances
> >> >are in the range of human brain activity; in fact the primary
> >> >7.5hz one is right on the alpha state.
> >> 
> >
> >	You should all read up on EEG research... then we can conduct a 
> >discussion on the issues of EEG frequencies... and anything else.   EEG 
> >research is a not very exact science.
> >
> 
> Well, the alpha state is considered in the 7-9Hz range, right?
> And the nominal value for the schumann resonance is ~8Hz, right?
> 

	In general:

	sleep  2-3 cps
	5-7.... emission of children, sometimes associated with 
creativity...   this tends to move up toward alpha as person moves toward 
puberty.
	9-11 alpha

	~14-18 beta.... general associated with mental activity..

	~~ 22-30  epileptic activity...


> So the match is pretty good, even for a "not very exact science" :^)
> 
> >
> >> Yes, you can overlay a chart of the resonances and a chart of the
> >> average EEG power spectrum and they line up pretty close.
> >> 
> >
> >	This  would be like saying all people are right handed.... WHAT 
> >EEG spectra.... acquired how... when, and from whom?
> 
> Fred overstates here, but the point was that the earth resonances
> are in the range of brain activity.
> 

	There are several LF and ELF sources .... the EEG is one.


> Well, as you have (belatedly) joined the discussion, I have
> a question for you. Seems a few months back you posted
> some material concerning noninvasive brain stimulation with
> large inductors pulsed with fast risetime currents.

	It is in my opinion very dangerous.


 I remember
> your comments about field testing the hardware, launching
> quarters into the ceiling. What kind of field intensities
> and rates of change were required to cause enough eddy current
> to get muscle and brain response?

	Not well documented... one description was 300 to 1,500 Joules 
from BIG cap bank into 200 turn 14 AWG coil, air core, 3" diameter.



> 
> K.
> 
> 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 30 21:06:29 1998
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Bob Shannon wrote:
<snip>

> If it cannot be canceled, and its a potential, why describe it as a
> vector?

Because thats what my physics textbooks describe it as! ;) AFAIK, no one
really knows what the A potential is or does. Its just there, previously
thought to be a mathematical abstraction until the Aharonov-Bohm
effect.  

> Right, its not a torriod coil.
> 
> Its a magnet, not a coil.  Its toriodal, magnetized along its axis.
> Then coated
> in a superconductor.  Normally the flux flows along the inside of the
> magnet.

OK. That makes sense now; Perhaps it could produce a curl free-A? I
really don't know. How would one model a superconductor in QuickField?

Kyle R. Mcallister

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 30 22:20:21 1998
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Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 01:29:11 -0600
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From: josephnewman@earthlink.net (Evan Soule)
Subject: http://www.overunity.com/newman2/   updated !
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Stefan Hartmann posted on his website 11/30/98:

CIRCUIT DIAGRAM
snip---
This circuit was tested to see, if one could get a higher DC voltage at the
storage capacitor C2 as the powersupply voltage, which was about 620 Volts.
When the spark gap was closed and fast opened again manually, then one
could get a DC voltage of about 750 Volts at the external storage capacitor
C2. Only when the fast cutoff spark appeared ! This happened when the
negative back current pulse occured and thus the voltage at the Newman coil
was going higher than the power supply voltage, so that Diode D3 was 
conducting and charging  C2. Running the spark gap in hissing sound mode
contineously produced a sawtooth voltage waveform at C2 and the 220 Volts
25 Watts incandescent bulb is glowing dimmly up.
  
CIRCUIT DIAGRAM
snip---
This new circuit was used to test the energy  of the back current spike.
When rapidly switching (closing and opening) the spark gap manually, one
could get about minus 2000 Volts DC at C2. Every time a back current spike
appeared, the voltage was going more negative  at C2 until about 2000 Volts
were reached. Then there was no way to get it higher. Somehow the cap C2
discharged sometimes during an open-close cycle and thus the voltage
dropped again.

I still have to grab and upload the scope pics from the DV camcorder.

So much I can already say :

The negative back current spikes, still occurs, when the scope probes are
reversed at the shunt, when using a floating ground scope instead of a
grounded scope.

Unfortunately it diasappears from the scope , when I switch the scope input
Channel A from the 500 mV/div. setting to one setting higher at 1
Volts/div. Then internally inside the scope I also hear a click, so that
this setting is internally switched via a relay switch to some other
amplifier components setting. I still wonder, if this disappearing  of the
current spike is a scope artifact, cause the back current spike seems to be
really there, which is verified via these 2 external storage capacitor
experiments. BTW, channel B on the scope had a 1000:1 probe head with 1001
MegaOhm input resistance. Channel A had a 10:1 probe unit with 11 MegaOhm
input resistance. Both probe heads were compensated via their capacitance
trimmer caps inside the heads via the square wave of the scope. So this
should have minimized measurement errors. BTW, reversing Diode D3 produced
about plus 4000 Volts DC at C2, when switching the spark gap manually.

___________________________

Stefan --

Thanks for the update on your experiments!

I spoke with Joseph Newman about your report.  He says that you are on the
right track.  He added that "the scope should be *TOTALLY* isolated from
ground."  He recommends you go back and again read carefully the scope
manual with respect to scope settings and grounding.  What is happening is
that when the negative back current spikes exceed the op/amp, it will go to
ground.  In other words, he stated that "it does not go to ground BEFORE it
goes to op/amp"; look at the cross-hair showing the ground (measure
tolerances) --- "before op/amp is is NOT grounded."  At one time this was a
common misunderstanding among several people who did not understand the
specific points addressing this issue as described in the scope manual.
Until they did, they were consistently sending the negative back current
spikes to ground by virtue of not understanding the scope's proper
operation in this regard!  The behavior of the capicator underscores the
very real nature of the negative back spike.

Best regards,

Evan

___________________________

And, as Dr. Hastings wrote about the operation of the Newman
Motor/Generator relative to r.f.:

"The torque applied to the magnet in the Newman Motors is proportional to
the product of the strength of the magnet, the number of turns of copper
wire, and the current flowing through the wire.  In Newman's machines
extremely large torques can be developed with very small current inputs.
If we scale up Newman's motor, it is theoretically possible to obtain
infinite torques with infinitesimal current flow (and not violate any laws
of physics).  However, according to conventional thought, as soon as the
magnet begins to rotate, doing work against some load applied to its shaft,
the back emf (electromotive force) produced by the rotating magnet would
produce a back current which nearly cancels the input current, and the
torque would be reduce to nearly zero.  The magnet could not rotate, or
would rotate extremely slowly with the shaft power output less than the
battery input.

"Consider what has happened to conventional thought in the past when people
have experimented with the limits of very high speeds (relativity), very
small dimensions (quantum mechanics), very low temperatures
(superconductivity and superfluidity).  Newman's motors probe the limits of
very large torque with very small current input.  And they do rotate at
relatively high rates.  For example, witness Newman's prototype which runs
on 0.0008 amps at 3,000 volts and turns a 16-inch fan blade at more than
500 rpms.  How much torque can this motor produce.  Try to stop the motor
by holding the two inch diameter shaft.  This will not be possible for a
normal human.

"Newman's motors are unconventional in other ways.  One notices the
fluorescent tubes which are placed across the motor coil.  These tubes are
lit by the coil's collapsing magnetic field occurring when the battery
voltage is switched.  They are used to protect the mechanical switching
from damage due to arcing.  The additional power produced in these tubes
(and flowing through the system) occurs at very high frequencies, primarily
in the range of ten to twenty million cycles per second.  This r.f. current
has been accurately measured, and exceeds the battery input current by a
factor of five to ten in the various motors which have been constructed.
One of Newman's motors was monitored with a computerized high speed data
sampling system, with the following results:

(1) The r.f. appears in bursts, with the repeat time between each burst
approximately equal to the length of the motor winding divided by the speed
of light in copper.  The r.f. bursts showed little attenuation during their
travel through the coil, maintaining their shape and amplitude.

(2) The r.f. current and voltage were in phase, representing the real power.

(3) The r.f. current and voltage waveforms were offset from ground,
indicating a net d.c. component.

(4) The net r.f. power at the battery pack represented a negative power
which exceeded the d.c. input power from the batteries.

"The last statement may explain why Newman has been able to demonstrate the
charging of dry cell batteries placed in his system.  Battery failure has
occurred through internal shorts which develop within the batteries rather
than by depletion of the energy stored within the batteries.  Bear in mind
that the batteries will last many times longer than expected for a drain of
0.0008 amps.

"Newman should be immediately awarded a patent and become recognized in the
scientific community for his accomplishments."

                             --- Dr. Roger Hastings, Ph.D.



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Nov 30 22:26:11 1998
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On Mon, 30 Nov 1998, Dennis C. Lee wrote:

> At 08:36 PM 11/29/98 -0800, you wrote:
> >  http://www.zpfilms.com/films.html
> >
> >Is this a ripoff?
> 
> (snip)
> 
> Bill; with all due respect, here is a case where experimentation and design
> details have been provided, yet there is dissatisfaction stated. 

Before assuming anything, go read the entire blurb on that website.  The
videotape is $60, titled "The Don Smith Device: Free Energy at Last."  It
claims to show a "working prototype" Free Energy Device.  "With this video
you will learn how to build your own free energy device!" 

> Perhaps
> this person is not aware of the presence of you webpage.

This shouldn't matter one way or the other, since Don Smith has been
involved with FE/OU for years.

> He states the
> phrase free energy. Is this equivilent in definition to OU? 

Yep.  I think Don Smith is the editor of the free energy publication
"Space Energy Association journal" (or at least is a major contributor.) 
However, there is the chance that the zpfilms.com people created that
ad without Don's knowledge, and he is therefor not a part of the stuff.

> The reaction I
> read in the snipped part of this message would discourage me from further
> investigation on this design given the stature of your position in this
> field.

Hmmm, I never considered my stature being such a problem.  I'm a
dilletante, a F/E fan with a website, I don't do actual experiments
myself, so I would hope that people would not give my opinions as much
weight as those of the major players in the FE field. 


If this Don Smith device is real... if it is the device which finally
blows
the gates to free energy research wide open, then I am wrong and I owe
many people a major apology.  But if the device is yet another mistake,
NOBODY SHOULD BE SPENDING $60 ON THE VIDEOTAPE!!!!  And if the device is
not guaranteed to be real, then their present ad is highly misleading. 
The whole thing strikes me as NOT a method to get information out to the
public or to the FE community, but as a just a dishonest ploy to sell
videotapes.

If thousands of people are pursuing "buried treasure," and along comes
someone who is selling "real" treasure maps for $60, should you instantly
whip out your wallet?  Or should you think twice and then ask "why is this
guy messing around with treasure maps SINCE HE HAS MADE THE DISCOVERY OF
THE CENTURY?!!"  Maybe because the "treasure maps" are not as real as the 
claims make them out to be?

> Perhaps opinions should remain conservative in conditions such as
> this until somebody buys the tape, builds the device, and has a peer group
> study how well the prototype produced adheres to the specifications stated
> in the tape.

A good plan.  But I think the producers of this tape should have already
done just this sort of testing before claiming in their advertizement that
the device really works, and before claiming to give instructions so you
can build your own.  If they said "come and try to duplicate this device,
see if the inventor's claims are in fact genuine"  then I wouldn't have
any complaints.  Perhaps people would even pay $60 for information about a
new experimental avenue in FE research.  But a hell of a lot MORE people
would pay for plans to a REAL device!

As I said before, I have no problems with people selling books or info on
free energy.  My beef is not with the ones who publish things about the
search for the "treasure," or who supply tools to the searchers.  My beef
is with the ones who claim to have already discovered the "treasure", and
will sell anyone a real "map" to it...    for only $60.


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb@eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L