From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 1 08:16:50 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA11010; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 08:13:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 08:13:57 -0700 Message-ID: <001b01c3709a$fb6e7320$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Cc: References: Subject: Re: Ken Shoulders ICCF-10 Poster Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 08:08:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id IAA10929 Resent-Message-ID: <"0DseX3.0.sh2.q8sK_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51702 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Keith > Maybe from the silver plating on the ceramic > components shown on page 24? Yes. That is the ion trap and presumably elements should not have migrated back to the reactor from it, but that possibility seems the most logical, even if you accept massive trasmutation elsewhere. There are obvious ways to get LENR fission in the electrodes but no heavier elements than Ni are apparently in the electrodes, so any actual transmutation products in the experiment should be lower mass than Ni as it seems unlikely that any kind of high z fusion is claimed. But that needs to be clarified. I think an intentionally overlooked topic is in comparing this work to other types of CF, and I can see why few at ICCF-10 want to go there. If EVs or NEVs are an operative mechanism in some other types of CF then it is arguably not cold fusion at all but cold fission instead, and the helium ash that is seen could be alphas knocked out of the Pd matrix, just as all of that Na ash in this experiment is apparently from alphas knocked out of the aluminum. Weren't you surprised at the high level? > Also, where is the SIMS analysis of the control > to judge the one provided on page 10? Since the SIMS was apparently done independently, perhaps KS relied only on his own x-ray spec. analysis for the control. > Page 9 looks exactly like what you'd expect, > if your starting materials are Ni and Al2O3. > Is this the control? Yes. That is my take on it also. > Ken's work is as always very intriguing, any > chance that his talk (if one was provided) > could find it's way into the vort??? As it was a poster session, I doubt it. But there is an original PPT 16 MB file, having much higher picture quality, which is available from Ken - but as I understand it, it is available on CD only. However, the other two items on that download site are very interesting in re: the fusion of deuterium. Especially the images in the NEV paper [ NEV means an EV with entrained nuclei] . Here is some of the relevant text: In these micro-explosions, it is likely that over 100,000 deuterons are included. These nuclei are then hurled, with the high energy density afforded by the EV compression process, into the parent material. This is done by a collective acceleration at a low-applied voltage, in the kilovolt range, but having the equivalent velocity of megavolts, due to the acceleration mechanism.....The extreme state of matter produced, in the *Gbar* pressure range, is generated by interacting shock waves like those demonstrated in EV technology. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 1 08:18:56 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA12641; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 08:17:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 08:17:08 -0700 Message-ID: <002301c3709b$6b448400$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: Marinov's Longitudinal Force Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 08:12:11 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id IAA12594 Resent-Message-ID: <"CtUwj3.0.R53.pBsK_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51703 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace, > This means, for example, that an electron confined to a closed > path inside a toroidal coil would be continually accelerated. Ah, has the fabled "negative resistance" been found at last? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 1 10:46:48 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA01808; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 10:45:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 10:45:07 -0700 Message-ID: <410-2200391117455484@mindspring.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: JedRothwell@mindspring.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2003.3.84.0 (Windows) From: "Jed Rothwell" To: "Vortex" Subject: ICCF10 News Flash in new LENR-CANR.org section Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 13:45:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c58c91e2d1fe5b61e3d49f0e40b143c9099f37241381ec17c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: <"jsazY1.0.4S.YMuK_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51704 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: We have inaugurated a new section at LENR-CANR.org with a News Flash by Talbot Chubb. See: http://www.lenr-canr.org/iccf10/iccf10.htm - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 1 11:44:16 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA05518; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 11:41:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 11:41:44 -0700 Message-ID: <3F5393A0.6000307@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 14:44:48 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Strange Spam Revisited Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"EBimL3.0.7M1.dBvK_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51705 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts Vorts, You remember the strange spam email I posted about a month ago? It made Wired Mag.: http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,60141,00.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 1 12:01:54 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA16611; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 12:00:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 12:00:57 -0700 Message-ID: <3F53980A.20003@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 15:03:38 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Fwd: Re: ICCF10 News Flash in new LENR-CANR.org section] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"hnXwl.0.734.XTvK_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51706 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, your "reply to" should be blank. Terry -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: ICCF10 News Flash in new LENR-CANR.org section Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 14:52:45 -0400 From: Terry Blanton To: JedRothwell@mindspring.com References: <410-2200391117455484@mindspring.com> Jed Rothwell wrote: >We have inaugurated a new section at LENR-CANR.org with a News Flash by >Talbot Chubb. See: > >http://www.lenr-canr.org/iccf10/iccf10.htm > Quoting: "Hubler at the U.S. Naval Research Lab announced plans for replication testing in consultation with the Mitsubishi scientists." So, what keeps CF antagonists from stopping this research? It *is* tax funded, eh? A correspondent of mine at the Naval Weapons Lab in Maryland, Dr. Bruce Maccabee, retired, spent a good bit of his career advocating UFOs as being intelligently controlled. Have they no control over these people? BTW, shouldn't 'as" be 'at' in the title? Did you get scrod, Jed? Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 1 12:29:19 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA31380; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 12:28:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 12:28:11 -0700 Message-ID: <001801c370bf$31e595e0$8fab4943@metrogr.org> From: "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" To: References: Subject: Re: Marinov's Longitudinal Force Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 15:28:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"r0iAu3.0.Eg7.AtvK_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51707 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >Alas, as even Marinov realized near the end, this effect, too, is > >(apparently) entirely the result of the Lorentz force law. > > > >Jeffery D. Kooistra > > > That was my understanding too. Also, I made various posts here years ago > explaining the motor's operation via Lorentz force. However, the theory is > another thing entirely. AFAIK, the theory was not used quantitatively in > the design of the motor or vice versa. A definitive experiment takes some > quantitative work, in my opinion, to check the formulation. True--I was able to make a ring rotate easily (didn't use a pool of Hg, though--just a big copper ring). After awhile, I was able to determine (1) the Lorentz force law did give an adequate qualitative description of how it worked; (2) how it was that Marinov had managed to fool himself for so long (the device does have it's counter-intuitive aspects); and (3) a thorough quantitative experiment to see if there was any longitudinal force present over and above the Lorentz force would be a bitch to perform (at least on a small budget). > If it should happen that the theory > is even partially right, the consequences could be very significant, so I > think it is maybe worth mulling over a bit, especially in light of > discussion a few days ago of the "Marinov motor" described and photographed > at . Oh, yes--that's Marinov's "other motor." It really does work--I've seen one in action. Also seems to me that in later editions of Valone's "The homopolar handbook" there's an explanation for how it works that seems right. The Marinov motor I worked on with Phipps and Ligon was based on the diagram from Wesley's paper. JDK From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 1 12:52:08 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA12426; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 12:50:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 12:50:32 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Ken Shoulders ICCF-10 Poster Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 16:11:57 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <001b01c3709a$fb6e7320$8837fea9@cpq> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"NZX901.0.Y13.2CwK_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51708 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jones. In addition, the strip transmission line that drive the reactor cavity is silver plated, see pg 6. Honestly, I'd like to see a control analysed in the same manner as page 10. That diagram looks very impressive, but without a control I don't understand what I'm seeing. If page 9 is the control, what's been changed? K. -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net] Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 11:09 AM To: vortex Cc: knagel@gis.net Subject: Re: Ken Shoulders ICCF-10 Poster Hi Keith > Maybe from the silver plating on the ceramic > components shown on page 24? Yes. That is the ion trap and presumably elements should not have migrated back to the reactor from it, but that possibility seems the most logical, even if you accept massive trasmutation elsewhere. There are obvious ways to get LENR fission in the electrodes but no heavier elements than Ni are apparently in the electrodes, so any actual transmutation products in the experiment should be lower mass than Ni as it seems unlikely that any kind of high z fusion is claimed. But that needs to be clarified. I think an intentionally overlooked topic is in comparing this work to other types of CF, and I can see why few at ICCF-10 want to go there. If EVs or NEVs are an operative mechanism in some other types of CF then it is arguably not cold fusion at all but cold fission instead, and the helium ash that is seen could be alphas knocked out of the Pd matrix, just as all of that Na ash in this experiment is apparently from alphas knocked out of the aluminum. Weren't you surprised at the high level? > Also, where is the SIMS analysis of the control > to judge the one provided on page 10? Since the SIMS was apparently done independently, perhaps KS relied only on his own x-ray spec. analysis for the control. > Page 9 looks exactly like what you'd expect, > if your starting materials are Ni and Al2O3. > Is this the control? Yes. That is my take on it also. > Ken's work is as always very intriguing, any > chance that his talk (if one was provided) > could find it's way into the vort??? As it was a poster session, I doubt it. But there is an original PPT 16 MB file, having much higher picture quality, which is available from Ken - but as I understand it, it is available on CD only. However, the other two items on that download site are very interesting in re: the fusion of deuterium. Especially the images in the NEV paper [ NEV means an EV with entrained nuclei] . Here is some of the relevant text: In these micro-explosions, it is likely that over 100,000 deuterons are included. These nuclei are then hurled, with the high energy density afforded by the EV compression process, into the parent material. This is done by a collective acceleration at a low-applied voltage, in the kilovolt range, but having the equivalent velocity of megavolts, due to the acceleration mechanism.....The extreme state of matter produced, in the *Gbar* pressure range, is generated by interacting shock waves like those demonstrated in EV technology. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 1 13:07:18 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA21383; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 13:06:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 13:06:01 -0700 Message-ID: <007701c370c3$c6720280$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Some EV coincidences Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 13:01:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0074_01C37089.19AE7540" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: <"Zoz1F3.0.fD5.bQwK_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51709 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0074_01C37089.19AE7540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If Frank Znidarsic is listening today, perhaps he would like to comment = on how the Shoulder's EV might fit into his theory, since there seems to = be some coincidental overlap. That is, the EV is said to be a sphere of = about a micron diameter with about 10^11 electrons, which appear to have = coherence properties like a BEC... If my calculations are correct, a Palladium sphere of a micron in = diameter would also have about 10^11 interstitial spaces, indicating = that if fully loaded all of the electrons of the hydrogen or deuterium = (which don't quite fit) would participate in whatever the EV, as a = coherent structure, is forced to do... Also a micron is about the wavelength of the infrared heat of an active = CF cell... And then there is that megahertz-meter thing that I have never fully = grasped the full significance of, except that there appears to be a = great deal of coincidental relevance... "The theory states that the constants of the motion tend toward the = electromagnetic in a Bose condensate that is stimulated at a dimensional = frequency of one megahertz-meter."=20 "The electric field of the electron does not saturate. It extends to = infinity. Charges are isolated by resistance. Superconductors (a type of = Bose condensate) offer no resistance to electrical currents. The = electrical permittivity of a superconductor is infinite. The electric = field of a superconductor is shown in figure one. This field is confined = by the infinite permittivity of the medium. No flux leaks away. The = range of the electric field is limited to the dimensions of the = superconductor. The electrical field is concentrated within the = superconductor. The range and strength of the electric field determine = the electrical motion constants. The magnetic field passes through most = solids. A superconductor completely expels magnetic lines of flux. The = shortest magnetic flux line has a dimension equal to the circumference = of the superconductor." ------=_NextPart_000_0074_01C37089.19AE7540 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If Frank Znidarsic is listening today, perhaps he would like to = comment on=20 how the Shoulder's EV might fit into his theory, since there seems to be = some=20 coincidental overlap. That is, the EV is said to be a sphere of about=20 a micron diameter with about 10^11 electrons, which appear to have=20 coherence properties like a BEC...
 
If my calculations are correct, a Palladium sphere of a micron in = diameter=20 would also have about 10^11 interstitial spaces, indicating that if = fully loaded=20 all of the electrons of the hydrogen or deuterium (which don't quite = fit) would=20 participate in whatever the EV, as a coherent structure, is forced = to=20 do...
 
Also a micron is about the wavelength of the infrared heat of an = active CF=20 cell...
 
And then there is that megahertz-meter thing that I have never = fully=20 grasped the full significance of, except that there appears to be a = great deal=20 of coincidental relevance...
 
"The theory states that the constants of the motion tend toward the = electromagnetic in a Bose condensate that is stimulated at a dimensional = frequency of one megahertz-meter."
 
"The electric field of the electron does not saturate. It extends = to=20 infinity. Charges are isolated by resistance. Superconductors (a type of = Bose=20 condensate) offer no resistance to electrical currents. The electrical=20 permittivity of a superconductor is infinite. The electric field of a=20 superconductor is shown in figure one. This field is confined by the = infinite=20 permittivity of the medium. No flux leaks away. The range of the = electric field=20 is limited to the dimensions of the superconductor. The electrical field = is=20 concentrated within the superconductor. The range and strength of the = electric=20 field determine the electrical motion constants. The magnetic field = passes=20 through most solids. A superconductor completely expels magnetic lines = of flux.=20 The shortest magnetic flux line has a dimension equal to the = circumference of=20 the superconductor."
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0074_01C37089.19AE7540-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 1 13:25:34 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA31726; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 13:24:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 13:24:27 -0700 Message-ID: <007801c370c6$5d42cbc0$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <3F5393A0.6000307@rtpatlanta.com> Subject: Re: Strange Spam Revisited Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 13:19:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA31697 Resent-Message-ID: <"ZFuE23.0.dl7.whwK_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51710 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > You remember the strange spam email I posted about a month ago? It made > Wired Mag.: > > http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,60141,00.html I can sympathize...the guy craves time travel, has some bucks to burn and needs help with the budget....but, hey, it's doable ;-} all he needs to do is just get turned around in the right direction. Forget the "AMD Dimensional Warp Generator module containing the GRC79 induction motor," ... If you want thumping good time travel... get your hands on a Vincent '52... pity though, even with 100 million emails, $5K most likely won't do the trick... but he might manage a Fonzi leather jacket, some doo wap 45's and dab of Brylcreem... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 1 14:13:47 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA27340; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 14:11:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 14:11:41 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <14.182eaaf7.2c850fe6@aol.com> Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 17:11:02 EDT Subject: Re: Some EV coincidences To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_14.182eaaf7.2c850fe6_boundary" X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10641 Resent-Message-ID: <"IYKad2.0.5h6.COxK_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51711 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --part1_14.182eaaf7.2c850fe6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/1/03 4:07:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jonesb9@pacbell.net writes: > If Frank Znidarsic is listening today, perhaps he would like to comment on > how the Shoulder's EV might fit into his theory, since there seems to be some > coincidental overlap. That is, the EV is said to be a sphere of about a > micron diameter with about 10^11 electrons, which appear to have coherence > properties like a BEC... > > Thank you for asking. I don't understand what Shoulders is doing. I met him at ANS Washington. He was self taught. It appears that he has come along a long way since then. I believe that the may be a connection between what he is doing and ball lighting. A micron is the wrong size. The magic size at thermal frequencies of a Bose condensate according to my megahertz meter theory is 50nm. This condesnate must involve nucleons. My paper "The Elastic Limit of space and the Quantum condition" is currently under review at the International Journal of Modern Physics. Perhaps this time I will get a break. And then there is that megahertz-meter thing that I have never fully grasped the full significance of, except that there appears to be a great deal of coincidental relevance... Thank you. I'll try to explain this. The quantum condition was describred Bohr's. The quantum condition states that total angular momentum around any closed loop is nh. This is the fundamental starting point for all of quantum physics. It says nothing about the path of the quantum transition. No one has had a clue about what happens during the quantum transition. I noticed at Power Gen that the CETI cell required thermal energy to get started. Others have found 50nm to be the magic size. 50nm times thermal energy = one megahertz-meter. Potletknov excited 1/3 meter diameter disk at 3 mega hertz. I found this out on my visit to NASA Marshall 1/3 meter x 3 megahertz is one megahertz meter. Again the same constant. I have, as of last year, discovered that the quantum transition that produce spectra lines is atoms require a megahertz-meter stimulation. Is this a coincidence? I think not. Chapter 11 I recently did some experiments with potash and a W cathode. No anomalous effects were observed. I still missing some vital information. I wish I could tell you more. Frank Znidarsic --part1_14.182eaaf7.2c850fe6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 9/1/03 4:07:28 PM Eastern Daylight=20= Time, jonesb9@pacbell.net writes:


If Frank Znidarsic is listening= today, perhaps he would like to comment on how the Shoulder's EV might fit=20= into his theory, since there seems to be some coincidental overlap. That is,= the EV is said to be a sphere of about a micron diameter with about 10^11 e= lectrons, which appear to have coherence properties like a BEC...



Thank you for asking.  I don't understand what Shoulders is doing. = ; I met him at ANS Washington.  He was self taught.  It appears th= at he has come along a long way since then.  I believe that the may be=20= a connection between what he is doing and ball lighting.  A micron is t= he wrong size.  The magic size at thermal frequencies of a Bose condens= ate according to my megahertz meter theory is 50nm.  This condesnate mu= st involve nucleons.

My paper "The Elastic Limit of space and the Quantum condition" is currently= under review at the International Journal of Modern Physics.  Perhaps=20= this time I will get a break.

<snip>
And then there is that megahertz-meter thing that I have never fully grasped= the full significance of, except that there appears to be a great deal of c= oincidental relevance...
<snip>

Thank you.  I'll try to explain this.  The quantum condition was d= escribred Bohr's.  The quantum condition states that total angular mome= ntum around any closed loop is nh.  This is the fundamental starting po= int for all of quantum physics. 

It says nothing about the path of the quantum transition.  No one has h= ad a clue about what happens during the quantum transition.  I noticed=20= at Power Gen that the CETI cell required thermal energy to get started. = ; Others have found 50nm to be the magic size.  50nm times thermal ener= gy =3D one megahertz-meter.  Potletknov excited 1/3 meter diameter disk= at 3 mega hertz. I found this out on my visit to NASA Marshall  1/3 me= ter x 3 megahertz is one megahertz meter.  Again the same constant.&nbs= p; I have, as of last year, discovered that the quantum transition that prod= uce spectra lines is atoms require a megahertz-meter stimulation.  Is t= his a coincidence?  I think not.

Chapter 11

I recently did some experiments with potash and a W cathode.  No anomal= ous effects were observed.  I still missing some vital information.&nbs= p; I wish I could tell you more.

Frank Znidarsic --part1_14.182eaaf7.2c850fe6_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 1 15:43:55 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA17087; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 15:42:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 15:42:50 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 14:49:29 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Marinov's Longitudinal Force Resent-Message-ID: <"UujKW2.0.eA4.fjyK_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51712 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:28 PM 9/1/3, Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra wrote: [snip] >Oh, yes--that's Marinov's "other motor." It really does work--I've seen one >in action. Also seems to me that in later editions of Valone's "The >homopolar handbook" there's an explanation for how it works that seems >right. [snip] Could you describe the principle for the subject motor in the Homopolar Handbook? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 1 17:59:42 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA22090; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 17:56:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 17:56:58 -0700 Message-ID: <000601c370ed$2102d660$81ab4943@metrogr.org> From: "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" To: References: Subject: Re: Marinov's Longitudinal Force Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 20:56:52 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"bUgyX2.0.2P5.Qh-K_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51713 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Could you describe the principle for the subject motor in the Homopolar > Handbook? Unfortunately, I only have an earlier edition of the book, so I don't have the description at hand. So working from memory, it seems to me the explanation relied on magnetic hysteresis in the steel ball bearings to provide a suitable "lever" for the high current to act upon. This gave a natural explanation for why the device had to be started by hand, and for why it would go in the direction it was started in regardless of current direction. I don't think anyone had tested the hypothesis by that time, but to my mind it beat the "differential expansion due to heating in the bearings" explanation that was commonly assumed by some. JDK From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 1 20:22:24 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA24330; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 20:20:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 20:20:32 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 19:26:50 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Marinov's Longitudinal Force Resent-Message-ID: <"sbFfa1.0.rx5._n0L_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51714 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:56 PM 9/1/3, Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra wrote: >> Could you describe the principle for the subject motor in the Homopolar >> Handbook? > >Unfortunately, I only have an earlier edition of the book, so I don't have >the description at hand. So working from memory, it seems to me the >explanation relied on magnetic hysteresis in the steel ball bearings to >provide a suitable "lever" for the high current to act upon. This gave a >natural explanation for why the device had to be started by hand, and for >why it would go in the direction it was started in regardless of current >direction. Interesting. That is the reason I gave for it working in a post on vortex some years ago. I no longer think that is true, however. I now feel fairly certain that the hysteresis has to lie in the ball races, and, as an extension of those, to some very small extent, torque can be added by hysteresis in the bearing mount and/or shaft. For convenience, in case you missed it a few days ago, following is a repost of my present guess at how it works. Courier type face is required for the figures. Here is my guess (hypothesis): the torque occurs as a result of hysteresis in the ball bearing races. Fig. 1 shows the H field around the current through the ball bearing races at the surfaces. The current in Fig. 1 is shown as vertical but it is really from the inside rim to the outside rim here, so the orientation of i is not important. That orientation is reversed, going from outside to inside on the opposed bearing, but, by symmetry, that doesn't matter either. The relative orientations of i and H and i AND M are what is important. (-) ^ O O . X X Race --------.-------------- Static outer race . . i through ball bearing . --------.-------------- ====> Inner race motion O O . X X Race (+) O - Field H out of page X - Field H into page ..> - Current i Fig. 1 - Field H from the current in the races Assuming the race motion shown in Fig. 1, the ball bearing is rotating counter-clockwise. The magnetic field M in the race remains for a short duration too while the ball moves forward (to the right). The motion is such that the current i conducts directly through the residual fields M lingering in the ball bearing and races as shown in Fig. 2. (-) ^ O O X.X Race --------.-------------- Static outer race o.o <---F1 . i through ball bearing x.x F2---> --------.-------------- ====> Inner race motion O.O X X Race (+) O - Field M out of page X - Field M into page o - Field M imposed on bearing is out of page x - Field M imposed on bearing into page ..> - Current i Fig. 2 - Field M residuals in ball bearing races The races do not fully contain the residual field. It goes out into space and wraps around the races. In the volume between the races the field directions are reversed, as is shown by the small x's and o's in Fig. 2. These small x's and o's are imposed on the ball bearing itself (not shown), through which the current i flows. The iL x B forces F1 and F2 occurring at the top and bottom of the ball bearing respectively in Fig. 2, cause a counter-clockwise torque upon the ball bearing. This reinforces the counter-clockwise motion of the ball bearing and thus drives the motor. The *other* forces inside the ball bearing are self-forces that net to zero. The field lines of M inside the ball bearing generated by i within the ball bearing, are closed within the ball bearing, they do not significantly affect anything outside the ball bearings. However, the fields M generated by i within the ball bearings oppose the fields o and x generated in the bearings by the residual M. For this reason, the device should work best if the bearings were of low permeability. This hypothesis is easily checked. The motor will work well with low permeability bearings like stainless steel or even copper or aluminum. The motor will not work without at least one magnetic material race exhibiting hysteresis. The more hysteresis in the races the better the motor works. Two high permeability ball races should give about twice the torque as one highly permeable race. Thinner races (in the axial direction) should work better than thick ones. In other words ball bearings should work better than roller races where the rollers are longer than their diameters, due to the need for the external field to be projected out of the race and into the bearing. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 2 09:35:11 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA30477; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 09:33:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 09:33:21 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <001701c36d53$9adb91e0$d511b83f@computer> References: <001701c36d53$9adb91e0$d511b83f@computer> Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 11:33:18 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Intrinsic OU Effects in Water? Aqueous Ions & Binding Energies Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <"sMn1F3.0.0S7.GPCL_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51715 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I posted; and Fredric replied; > > >Getting "Scrod", Thomas. :-) > >If the machine is grounded the (e-)aqueous electrons are lost to >earth ground, the >same as any other "static" charges. The machinery can be lined with >an insulating >layer, or biased slightly negative to prevent the loss of the electrons. This is the reverse of the Shappeller machine, which was supposed to be connected to the Earth in order to get it to work. I would recommend setting the machine up on a hard rubber mat, like dairy farmers use in free stall barns and not connecting the ground wire, I would wire the motor for 250V operation. Good luck to whom ever is doing the experiment. I have long had a fascination with the Yusmar machine, most particularly the ability of the water to release more energy to heat the building than could be accounted for by the heat which should have been in it. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 2 13:32:14 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA00755; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 13:29:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 13:29:16 -0700 Message-ID: <410-220039222029993@mindspring.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: JedRothwell@mindspring.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2003.3.84.0 (Windows) From: "Jed Rothwell" To: "Vortex" , "Ben Zimmerman" , "Dr. Mitchell Swartz" Subject: Photos of demonstrations at LENR-CANR.org Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 16:29:09 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c4fb66f9e05fb184efa68afeffa492cddac30c6e5e32ee181350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: <"gZSdO1.0.hB.RsFL_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51716 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: New material at LENR-CANR includes photos of demonstrations. See: http://www.lenr-canr.org/iccf10/iccf10.htm http://www.lenr-canr.org/iccf10/iccf10.htm#Demonstrations People have just begun sending me info. I expect Mitch will send me more about his demonstration soon. Ben Z. sent me the posters and brochures but they are in Microsoft Publisher format, which I cannot read. I am transferring material from ICCF10.org to LENR-CANR, and writing a sayonara-screen for ICCF10.org with instructions for authors. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 2 16:21:35 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA17891; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 16:18:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 16:18:43 -0700 Message-ID: <00f501c371a7$d8e577a0$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" References: <410-2200391117455484@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: ICCF10 News Flash in new LENR-CANR.org section Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 16:13:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA17813 Resent-Message-ID: <"KQ4oz.0.TN4.JLIL_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51717 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From: "Jed Rothwell" > We have inaugurated a new section at LENR-CANR.org with a News Flash by > Talbot Chubb. See: > http://www.lenr-canr.org/iccf10/iccf10.htm Holy Mackerel, Kingfish! Even though it is not really new, I can't believe my eyes on the "legs" of this story (or is that "fins" - not just the casual understatement of a potentially fantastic discovery, but moreover, the implied stupidity behind the way it is continued to be presented): >From Chubb's report: "In the Mitsubishi process a nuclearly active form of deuterium is created from a flowing stream of deuterium atoms inside a metal.... A new form of active deuterium is created during this inhibited diffusion process. The active deuterium is able to spread out and interact with the nuclei of target atoms despite the deuteron charge. The nuclear reactions are of a specific type. They are deuteron addition reactions in which 8 deuterons (or 2 alpha particles) are absorbed by a target nucleus." That "new form of active deuterium" wouldn't be a hydrino, now would it? Guess somebody forgot to tell the Mitsubishi tech writer that R.Mills made this discovery about 13 years ago....(actually we have mentioned it several times before on vortex - and clearly stated that Iwamura was remiss, if not worse) not to mention, why would anyone try to unobtrusively sneak in the little detail about "deuteron addition reactions in which 8 deuterons (or 2 alpha particles) are absorbed by a target nucleus." Of course, it's not really news to the extent that these folks have been repeating the same line for several years. If it were true, then wait a minute: deuteron addition is your MAJOR news story, not just from ICCF10 but major in terms of the last decade in nuclear physics! Forget cold fusion: CF is just another version of a well-known reaction - but a putative 8 deuteron addition is way beyond anything in LENR and all the rest of nuclear physics, up to now! So the reader is left almost dumbfounded about why Mitsubishi would continue to lend its name to attempted theft of intellectual property by first not crediting Mills (maybe they don't read vortex or don't care about intellectual theft), and second why not just go-for-the-gold with the real big tuna: the deuteron addition thing... ...if it is true, it puts them in Stockholm real soon...if it is not, then they will look like double fools for first trying to steal someone else's discovery and then second by blowing whatever explanation is really behind whatever transmutation it is that they found...don't get me wrong: they may have found a transmutation, (or an artifact in their mass spec that just won't go away) but everything else about this story smells like the Fulton fish market... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 2 16:41:04 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA30445; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 16:38:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 16:38:59 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 15:45:51 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: ICCF10 News Flash in new LENR-CANR.org section Resent-Message-ID: <"CJjQz.0.RR7.IeIL_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51718 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:13 PM 9/2/3, Jones Beene wrote: >From: "Jed Rothwell" > >> We have inaugurated a new section at LENR-CANR.org with a News Flash by >> Talbot Chubb. See: > >> http://www.lenr-canr.org/iccf10/iccf10.htm > > >Holy Mackerel, Kingfish! Even though it is not really new, I can't >believe my eyes on the "legs" of this story (or is that "fins" - not just >the casual understatement of a potentially fantastic discovery, but >moreover, the implied stupidity behind the way it is continued to be >presented): > >>From Chubb's report: > >"In the Mitsubishi process a nuclearly active form of deuterium is created >from a flowing stream of deuterium atoms inside a metal.... A new form of >active deuterium is created during this inhibited diffusion process. The >active deuterium is able to spread out and interact with the nuclei of >target atoms despite the deuteron charge. The nuclear reactions are of a >specific type. They are deuteron addition reactions in which 8 deuterons >(or 2 alpha particles) are absorbed by a target nucleus." > >That "new form of active deuterium" wouldn't be a hydrino, now would it? > >Guess somebody forgot to tell the Mitsubishi tech writer that R.Mills made >this discovery about 13 years ago....(actually we have mentioned it >several times before on vortex - and clearly stated that Iwamura was >remiss, if not worse) not to mention, why would anyone try to >unobtrusively sneak in the little detail about "deuteron addition >reactions in which 8 deuterons (or 2 alpha particles) are absorbed by a >target nucleus." Is there something in any literature that indicates Mills found a repeatable method of producing 8 deuteron captures? Does the described process infinge on some Mills patent? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 2 17:24:00 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA23845; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 17:21:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 17:21:58 -0700 Message-ID: <001d01c371b0$af1249e0$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: ICCF10 News Flash in new LENR-CANR.org section Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 17:16:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA23765 Resent-Message-ID: <"fqyEq3.0.Jq5.ZGJL_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51719 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Is there something in any literature that indicates Mills found a > repeatable method of producing 8 deuteron captures? No, and I wonder if MHI really has...with their resources, one would think they would have gone further if there was really something to it.... > Does the described process infinge on some Mills patent? The MHI work goes well beyond Mills, but you cannot build on someone else's prior work and not credit them! Mills patents (about two dozen international) and prior publications mention specifically both strontium and cesium as active catalysts, these are the only two catalysts that MHI has found that work with their process, so yes I think it is clear that there is both a patent infringement and lack of attribution. This is not coincidental. YOU JUST CANNOT STEAL (take credit for) PRIOR PUBLISHED WORK without attribution if you wish to be taken seriously. I think Iwamura's hubris over the past few year has absolutely ruled his team out of contentions for major accolades, even if they are right... Pity...perhaps they have found something. They are certainly persistent. But there is a long Japanese tradition of "borrowing" the ideas of foreigners, and even though that statement might not be PC in today's world and even though things have changed over there for most companies, MHI is the most staunchly traditional company of all. They should be roundly criticized by everyone concerned. That is about the only thing that motivates the traditional Japanese mentality - avoiding shame. Rothwell may differ on this, but in the past, if memory serves, he did say that he was going to mention this problem of lack of attribution to them... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 2 18:14:57 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA21545; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 18:13:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 18:13:17 -0700 Message-ID: <3F553378.F9035D92@ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 18:21:45 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: ICCF10 News Flash in new LENR-CANR.org section References: <001d01c371b0$af1249e0$8837fea9@cpq> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"hoGDY3.0.TG5.i0KL_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51720 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jones, I don't understand why you assume that the Mitsubishi studies have any relationship to the Mills work and that they are remise in not acknowledging Mills. No evidence exists in their study to suggest that hydrinos are involved. Furthermore, they and other people are just now starting to understand what is actually happening in their samples, never mind the theory. Jones Beene wrote: > > Is there something in any literature that indicates Mills found a > > repeatable method of producing 8 deuteron captures? > > No, and I wonder if MHI really has...with their resources, one would think they would have gone further if there was really something to it.... They have gone further. They provide more detail at each ICCF conference and a greater understanding. This reported information is about 18 months old so that their understanding today is far beyond what you have been told. Each year their apparatus gets more elaborate and their measurement become more accurate. I'm sure they have explored aspects of the effect that are being kept secret while they explore the commercial implications. These people are not stupid! > > > > Does the described process infinge on some Mills patent? > > The MHI work goes well beyond Mills, but you cannot build on someone else's prior work and not credit them! What makes you think that they are building on Mills? As far as I can tell, their approach is not related to Mills at all. > > > Mills patents (about two dozen international) and prior publications mention specifically both strontium and cesium as active catalysts, these are the only two catalysts that MHI has found that work with their process, so yes I think it is clear that there is both a patent infringement and lack of attribution. This is not coincidental. > > YOU JUST CANNOT STEAL (take credit for) PRIOR PUBLISHED WORK without attribution if you wish to be taken seriously. I think Iwamura's hubris over the past few year has absolutely ruled his team out of contentions for major accolades, even if they are right... > > Pity...perhaps they have found something. They are certainly persistent. But there is a long Japanese tradition of "borrowing" the ideas of foreigners, and even though that statement might not be PC in today's world and even though things have changed over there for most companies, MHI is the most staunchly traditional company of all. Now that is an untrue and unwise statement. Ed > > > They should be roundly criticized by everyone concerned. That is about the only thing that motivates the traditional Japanese mentality - avoiding shame. Rothwell may differ on this, but in the past, if memory serves, he did say that he was going to mention this problem of lack of attribution to them... > > Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 2 19:19:47 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA28454; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 19:18:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 19:18:22 -0700 Message-ID: <002f01c371c0$f5da74a0$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <001d01c371b0$af1249e0$8837fea9@cpq> <3F553378.F9035D92@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: ICCF10 News Flash in new LENR-CANR.org section Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 19:13:26 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA28421 Resent-Message-ID: <"aWDyS3.0.Wy6.kzKL_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51721 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed, > Jones, I don't understand why you assume that the Mitsubishi studies have any relationship to the Mills work and that they are remiss in not acknowledging Mills. With all due respect, Ed, I believe from this posting that either your knowledge of Mills' work is thin, or you are failing to grasp the KEY feature of the MHI work, which despite their having improved upon their technique in recent months, still is based *sine qua non* on an "activated" form of hydrogen, which absolutely must come into contact with two well-known Mill's catalyst. As Mills described in 1990, if not before. There is no other way to describe the hydrino as the very words that MHI has used. "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, talks like a duck"...you can finish the analogy for yourself. No well-informed person could even begin to rationalize this as a coincidence! MHI has had representatives at many conferences since 1989 where Mills spoke, before he "gave up" on "cold fusion" as it were, and went his own way. It is almost as if some of those early CF pioneers, who have stayed with the field despite criticism from peers, especially after Mills "defected," somehow think that they can "punish" him by using his work, or not objecting when other do, almost detail for detail, without attribution. By the same token, his work is squarely a part of LENR, whether he wants to acknowledge it or not. In twenty years, like it or not, he will be lumped in with a few un-named Russians, P&F, and maybe yourself Claytor, Miley and a few others as the original pioneers of the field... like it or not.... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 2 20:25:17 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA04004; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 20:22:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 20:22:05 -0700 Message-ID: <3F55519E.81B8F9C3@ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 20:30:38 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: ICCF10 News Flash in new LENR-CANR.org section References: <001d01c371b0$af1249e0$8837fea9@cpq> <3F553378.F9035D92@ix.netcom.com> <002f01c371c0$f5da74a0$8837fea9@cpq> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"zRc5i2.0.O-.SvLL_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51722 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Ed, > > > Jones, I don't understand why you assume that the Mitsubishi studies have any relationship to the Mills work and that they are remiss in not acknowledging Mills. > > With all due respect, Ed, I believe from this posting that either your knowledge of Mills' work is thin, or you are failing to grasp the KEY feature of the MHI work, which despite their having improved upon their technique in recent months, still is based *sine qua non* on an "activated" form of hydrogen, which absolutely must come into contact with two well-known Mill's catalyst. As Mills described in 1990, if not before. I suggest neither is true. First of all, the description on which you base your argument, "a special kind of deuterium", is Dash's description, not Mitsubishi's. Second, the Cs and Sr are not in contact with Ca. They are on the surface about 40 nm removed from the Ca. Third, the flux of D+, and presumably the hydrino, is moving from the Cs to the Ca, not the reverse. So, the Cs sees only D+. Any hydrino that formed at the Ca would move away from the Cs. Fourth, just because a Mills catalyst is present does not mean that hydrinos form. After all, the world is filled with such catalysts and hydrinos appear to be very rare. > > > There is no other way to describe the hydrino as the very words that MHI has used. > > "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, talks like a duck"...you can finish the analogy for yourself. No well-informed person could even begin to rationalize this as a coincidence! So far, I see nothing that looks like a duck. I suggest this image is only in your mind. > > > MHI has had representatives at many conferences since 1989 where Mills spoke, before he "gave up" on "cold fusion" as it were, and went his own way. > > It is almost as if some of those early CF pioneers, who have stayed with the field despite criticism from peers, especially after Mills "defected," somehow think that they can "punish" him by using his work, or not objecting when other do, almost detail for detail, without attribution. Give me a break, Jones. A lot more is going on in these experiments besides hydrino formation. I have no doubt that hydrinos can be involved in some situations, but they are very difficult to apply to all cases. As a CF pioneer, I would be happy to have such a simple explanation. > > > By the same token, his work is squarely a part of LENR, whether he wants to acknowledge it or not. Part of is work applies under special conditions to LENR. > In twenty years, like it or not, he will be lumped in with a few un-named Russians, P&F, and maybe yourself Claytor, Miley and a few others as the original pioneers of the field... That is doubtful. A hydrino may trigger a nuclear reaction, but that is a minor part of the process. In reality, more is required of the process than to overcome the Coulomb barrier. The mechanism is much more complex than Mills has suggested, even if his model could be applied to the process, which is doubtful. Ed > > > like it or not.... > > Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 3 00:05:54 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA02607; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 00:04:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 00:04:37 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 23:11:27 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: ICCF10 News Flash in new LENR-CANR.org section Resent-Message-ID: <"XWnBg2.0.Ue.4APL_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51723 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:30 PM 9/2/3, Edmund Storms wrote: [snip a bunch of stuff with which I strongly agree] >I have no doubt that hydrinos can be involved in some situations, but they >are very difficult to apply to all cases. [snip] Such faith! I certainly would not bet on the existence of hydrinos one way or another, at least not hydrinos as described by Mills. I think there is much doubt remaining in many quarters as to even their existance. I have always been willing to entertain even wild possibilities and consider their consequences, but buying into the hydrino theory as if it is proven fact is going off the deep end even for me. [snip] >That is doubtful. A hydrino may trigger a nuclear reaction, but that is a >minor part of the process. In reality, more is required of the process >than to overcome the Coulomb barrier. The mechanism is much more complex >than Mills has suggested, even if his model could be applied to the >process, which is doubtful. Yes, if the only thing required for LENR was closer radius electron shielding as provided by a hydrino then the nuclear reactions would have conventional branching ratios and signatures. There would not be a predominant proportion of multi-body reactions. The daughter isotopes having a mass increase of 2 or 4 would be much more common. I don't see how the hydrino theory applies here at all. BTW, speaking of grabbing credit, doesn't precisely quoting someone else's long passages in one's book without quotation marks or attribution fall into that category? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 3 05:32:05 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id FAA22111; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 05:30:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 05:30:18 -0700 Message-ID: <3F55DEAD.6020305@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 08:29:33 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: ICCF10 News Flash in new LENR-CANR.org section References: <001d01c371b0$af1249e0$8837fea9@cpq> <3F553378.F9035D92@ix.netcom.com> <002f01c371c0$f5da74a0$8837fea9@cpq> In-Reply-To: <002f01c371c0$f5da74a0$8837fea9@cpq> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"kRqYp1.0.ZO5.MxTL_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51724 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >By the same token, his (Mills) work is squarely a part of LENR, > Why would an electron energy level transition be considered a nuclear reaction? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 3 06:54:24 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA11165; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 06:53:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 06:53:07 -0700 Message-ID: <001d01c37222$03d8cbe0$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <001d01c371b0$af1249e0$8837fea9@cpq> <3F553378.F9035D92@ix.netcom.com> <002f01c371c0$f5da74a0$8837fea9@cpq> <3F55DEAD.6020305@rtpatlanta.com> Subject: Re: ICCF10 News Flash in new LENR-CANR.org section Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 06:47:27 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id GAA11094 Resent-Message-ID: <"s6jQa.0.Nk2.39VL_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51725 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Terry Blanton" > >By the same token, his (Mills) work is squarely a part of LENR, > Why would an electron energy level transition be considered a nuclear > reaction? It is arguable that the first few "redundant ground states" are chemical, not nuclear, assuming that no mass or potential energy has been lost from the nucleus in those steps (that is not established one way or the other). At a certain point, according to Mills, the electron orbital is drawn close enough to the nucleus that it can be considered a "virtual neutron" or as MHI likes to call it, an "activated hydrogen." At that point it will participate in nuclear reactions, with reduced energy input and output - the classic LENR. But as you imply, untill that point is reached, the exact nature of whatever energy is shed is not clear, but is most like provided at the expense of the electron and should be called chemical. Jones However as far back as the early 1990's Mills was implying and his followers were saying that all of CF was most likely due to hydrinos (deuterinos). Even if this is overreaching, one cannot say that because some of the energy of the activated hydrogen is chemical in nature that this somehow negates the fact that later transmutations which are caused by the neutrino are not nuclear. The final stages in the process are clearly nuclear. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 3 07:16:57 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA24555; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:14:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:14:38 -0700 Message-ID: <001e01c37225$0563f860$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <001d01c371b0$af1249e0$8837fea9@cpq> <3F553378.F9035D92@ix.netcom.com> <002f01c371c0$f5da74a0$8837fea9@cpq> <3F55519E.81B8F9C3@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: ICCF10 News Flash in new LENR-CANR.org section Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:09:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id HAA24500 Resent-Message-ID: <"Jzbgi1.0.a_5.DTVL_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51726 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Edmund Storms" "I suggest neither is true. First of all, the description on which you base your argument, "a special kind of deuterium", is Dash's description, not Mitsubishi's. " They have used identical wording, many times. Read their older presentations If Dash wrote or consulted in their past presentations and they disagree with his wording, then they should not use it. "Second, the Cs and Sr are not in contact with Ca. They are on the surface about 40 nm removed from the Ca. Third, the flux of D+, and presumably the hydrino, is moving from the Cs to the Ca, not the reverse. So, the Cs sees only D+. Any hydrino that formed at the Ca would move away from the Cs." Ed. This is where I think you need to read Mills' book, which obviously you have resisted. In Table 5, p.149, you will see all the active catalysts and their IP transition levels. Cs is probably the most active of all elements for hydrogen shrinkage with seven IP transition levels. As you say CA has some. But these are the ones that are missed by Cs, so that is why the "fit" is so good to get maximum shrinkage in the condensed state. "Fourth, just because a Mills catalyst is present does not mean that hydrinos form. After all, the world is filled with such catalysts and hydrinos appear to be very rare." For all we know, the universe may be filled with hydrinos. Mills has done supplied a lot of spectroscopy and cosmological data that suggests as much. He suggest that *much* if not most of the energy in the sun's corona is indeed hydrino energy. What we call solar energy may be largely hydrino energy! "So far, I see nothing that looks like a duck. I suggest this image is only in your mind." Or perhaps you have resisted the opportunity, for whatever reason, to find out what a hydrino really does look like. I cannot understand why you want to put yourself in the position of defending the MHI people. They are clearly wrong - their actions are indefensible - and geez, Ed, how hard is it to credit someone in your write-up? I suggest it is only hard only if someone at the top of a domineering and manipulative corporate hierarchy like MHI is well-known to be, thinks that there is economic value that may be diluted or nullified, if due credit is given. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 3 09:09:08 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA06510; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:05:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:05:06 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030903115446.00badc50@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 12:04:36 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Impressions of ICCF-10 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"BBg9E.0.db1.m4XL_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51727 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Here is a message I sent to a correspondent. Some of this is old news here. I titled this "Impressions" but more accurately it might called "blurred, dazed memories possibly induced by Pseudoephedrine Hydrochloride (120 mg)" - - - - - - - - - - - - Greetings. I am back from ICCF-10 but I have a rotten cold, so I am a decongestant daze. I can't even write. I write mainly by dictating to Naturally Speaking voice input, but the computer does not understand me when my nose is stuffed up. Anyway, without going into details, there were some excellent results reported at ICCF-10. More than I expected. Talbot Chubb wrote a brief "News Flash" about the conference that I uploaded into a new section of LENR-CANR.org: http://www.lenr-canr.org/iccf10/iccf10.htm I agree with him that Iwamura's work is the most compelling research in the field. One reason is that the instruments are the best that money can buy -- they cost millions. Their results have been replicated, and others are working on replications. Here are some other noteworthy authors: Letts & Cravens, laser stimulated CF. This has been independently replicated by McKubre and by Storms. The experiment has been moved into increasingly sophisticated calorimeters made by Scott Little, but the heat is still observed. Letts & Cravens performed a remarkable remote control Internet video demonstration of a live cell back in Texas. They are brave even to try this. Violante et al. have superb instruments and techniques. They gave several papers. "Analysis of Ni-Hydride Thin Film . . ." may help explain the laser stimulation. Oriani, detection of charged particles with CR-39 particle track detectors. These are remarkable results. The experiment works every time. Oriani uses wonderful, old-fashioned first-principle techniques and foolproof tools. However, I disagree with his conclusion that the particles originated in gas. I think they may have come from a tiny bit of metal torn off the cathode and lifted into the gas stream. He will stuff some cotton wool into the cell to test this hypothesis. Mizuno, glow discharge. His instruments are greatly improved. He has discovered that pyrolysis is fracturing water in the glow discharge, producing large amounts of hydrogen and oxygen at that cathode. The cathode surface cannot be hot enough to do this, or the metal would melt. This means, among other things, that these cells produce much more energy than people have estimated previously, because they did not measure the gas carefully. McKubre called this a "vastly important observation." Jones, repeatable neutron production from titanium foil. His technique nearly always produces copious neutrons, which he detects with a reliable detector at a very high signal to noise ratio. In the abstract he wrote: "the most striking advance is that the repeatability from these dual-coincidence charged-particle experiments is currently greater than 70%." I got the impression reliability is even better now. Neutrons themselves are an old story in CF. Many researchers have observed them, and Mizuno devised a method that nearly always produces a large burst. But Jones has the most sophisticated detector and the best repeatability as far as I know. Swartz, and Dash et al., live demonstrations at MIT. Marvelous work! Bravo to everyone! McKubre said he would never have the guts to try this, because so much can go wrong when you move an experiment. There were many other fine papers. When my head clears up, I will try to describe more of them. However, in contrast to previous conference, readers will have little need for my reports. More direct, timely information will be available from this conference than from any previous one. We will upload papers to the electronic proceedings at LENR-CANR.org as soon as the papers come in. I hope that many authors will also send us PowerPoint files, photographs and other information. CF researchers tend to be years behind the times. Several of them used PowerPoint presentations for the first time in this conference, and several of the presentations were striking. Jones produced an interesting 8-minute video style summary of his results, which I hope he will make available on his own web site. (It is too large for LENR-CANR, I am afraid.) Gene Mallove recorded all talks with a digital video camera. He plans to make video DVDs. I do not know whether he has permission to sell them, or whether he plans to sell them, but if he can make them available they may be a valuable resource. I am a little concerned about sound quality. In previous years sound quality has been poor, but the hotel had a pretty good sound system. It is a shame Gene could not plug in directly into the hotel sound system. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 3 10:42:41 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA13997; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:40:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:40:24 -0700 Message-ID: <001301c37241$c27fc520$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <001d01c371b0$af1249e0$8837fea9@cpq> <3F553378.F9035D92@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: ICCF10 News Flash in new LENR-CANR.org section Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:35:24 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id KAA13918 Resent-Message-ID: <"B-oeP2.0.OQ3.7UYL_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51728 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Let me add this to the previous response >From Ed Storms: Jones, I don't understand why you assume that the Mitsubishi studies have any relationship to the Mills work and that they are remiss in not acknowledging Mills. No evidence exists in their study to suggest that hydrinos are involved. Furthermore, they and other people are just now starting to understand what is actually happening in their samples, never mind the theory. Ed, It is clear that they have heard of Mills for any number of reasons going back several years, a few of which follow, including this from the vortex archive *two years* ago: From: "Jed Rothwell" > Let us not jump to conclusions. Bear in mind that I am only *guessing* they > have never heard of Mills. I will ask them if they have. > Also, bear in mind that the people at Mitsubishi have their own their > theory, which guides their choice of materials, and which they claim > predicts these outcomes. Why should they give the Mills theory more > credence than their own? Let's see. Why should they give the Mills theory more credence than their own? Because it is not about credence, it is about who is first? or try this: Because they knew of it, and published in the same journal where Mills' work appeared, long before their own transmutation work was even started? Because, like more than a few things in that part of the world, "their own" may sometimes only mean "that which was once someone else's." Take for instance, NEC and the CPU. NEC kept reverse engineering the Intel x86 design for years, changing it slightly, getting phony patents and dodging Intel in court until they finally realized it would just be cheaper just to pay royalties. Look in Business Week, WSJ, Forbes - all the business magazines in the 70s-80s carried story after story about the Japanese industrial strategy of patent "claim jumping". That is, immediately refiling for Japanese patents slightly altered from USA patents within weeks of them coming out here. Most reputable companies gave this up in the 1990s. Not Mitsubishi Heavy Industries. Look what happened to Fusion Systems, a small American firm which invented and patented a new way to get paint to adhere to aluminum. Mitsubishi bought one of this firm's machines and came out a few months later with one of their own. The small firm sued. Mitsubishi then made many small modifications to the machine (not improvements, just voluminous iterative changes), patented all of them and sued the US company many times over (for each patent). Mitsubishi just waited for Fusion Systems to run out of money defending them all and offered to drop the cases if the small company sold them the rights to the machine. Mills has published extensively in Fusion Technology going back 12 years. These same Mitsubishi researchers also published there. It is pretty certain that they have subscribed to Fusion Technology for many years, in their line of work. I don't like researchers, foreign or domestic, who try this "I didn't know" thing when a simple web search or Dialog search would have given them notice of similar research done by others. It's called "due diligence." Whether or not they truly arrived at similar conclusions based on a different theory can be another matter, but it doesn't relieve them of the responsibility to find it what has been already published. Especially since all of the active materials that they are working with seem to have come directly off the pages of Mills' CQM. And I would bet a dollar to a donut hole that Mitsubishi Heavy Industries has many copies of this book in their library. These are not stupid people. They do their background research well. Unfortunately for them, that research trail leads back to directly to R Mills' doorstep by way of Fusion Technology magazine, even if they ignored Rothwell's advice.. AMERICA WA NIHON NI "HAI" TO IUKA "There are many misconceptions about Japan and its success in the post-war era," see: http://bridge.anglia.ac.uk/~systimk/Articles/Japanyes-3rd.Html At this stage, we are only talking about giving credit and "due diligence." Iwamura should have cited Mills, even if it is coincidental and they have other good, maybe even better theories, for this particular choice of materials - and if they deny knowing about his work, they should explain their lack of due diligence. Again, I suggest that this has not occurred because someone at the top of a domineering and manipulative corporate hierarchy, one that borders on a criminal enterprise according to some of their victims, thinks that there is economic value in Iwamura's improvement of Mills' work, and that it may be diluted or nullified if due credit is given. If you believe otherwise, maybe you should have a talk with the folks over at Fusion Systems, or whichever was the most recent company that Mitsubishi Heavy Industries screwed out of patent rights. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 3 10:44:16 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA14649; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:41:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:41:09 -0700 Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 11:41:50 -0600 From: "R. Wormus" Reply-To: "R. Wormus" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Possible commercial LENR Device? Message-ID: <21918781.1062589310@localhost> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"jh05A1.0.ea3.qUYL_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51729 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 01:14:13 -0000 From: "betavolt" < Subject: Re: Plasmavolt device http://www.plasmavolt.com/ Plasmavolt is a fusion device along the same vein as IEC (Inertial=20 Electrostatic Confinement) fusion in fact. It has key advantages over=20 IEC fusion in that it has a energetic plasma in a form that lends=20 itself to direct inductive coupling of the rotational plasma vortex. It has the further advantage of a vortex of considerable size and=20 gauss strength that it can cause excitation in an inductive coil. The PlasmaVolt also will manufacture for us several valuable isotope=20 products as a by-product of its operation. Only a small amount of the=20 total output energy can be considered to be a result of stimulated=20 beta-decay of the K-40 isotope that it transmutes from other lighter=20 elements from the solid fuel anode. Most of the energy created by the=20 device in operation is due to these low energy fusion events. These fusion events can be observed on the anode side of the vortex=20 tube as well as in the plasma vortex between the anode and cathode.=20 The oscilloscope in the background of the animation shows flashes of=20 fusion clearly coinciding with major fluctuation shown on the scope. That is about all I can say for now. It should be ready for market in=20 about 8 months to a year. At this point it is just cranking out K-40=20 isotope for us in large quantity and high isotopic purity at a very=20 reasonable cost per gram. If you look at NASA pictures of plasma=20 vortexes within star nurseries or nebulae you will see this type of=20 elemental transmutation giving off a great deal of energy. The device is not a free energy device. Fusion fuel is consumed from=20 the solid fuel anode element. Hydrogen is created and so is K-40.=20 This is fusion energy in a form that is workable and will likely be=20 very affordable once we have recouped the development cost. It is=20 operating at overunity only in that more energy is output from the=20 device than is put in. That does not include the stored energy of the=20 solid fuel anode element. It will last a very long time before needing to be refueled. In fact=20 we estimate that it will run for about 2 years without need for=20 refueling. I am afraid it does not meet the benchmark for a true free=20 energy device. =20 Michael McDonnough President Betavoltaic Industries Inc. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 3 11:36:28 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA06841; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:33:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:33:58 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: ICCF10 News Flash in new LENR-CANR.org section Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:55:20 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <001301c37241$c27fc520$8837fea9@cpq> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"qB8Yt3.0.Yf1.GGZL_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51730 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jones. The place to look for attribution is in whatever patents have been granted to MHE for their invention. The prior art search necessary to receive the grant should reveal what, if any, connection there is to the Mill's patents. You seem to be confusing academia with business. Many do on these lists. The behavior you mention in your last post is pretty standard business practice for large companies, talk to anyone competing with Microsoft or GM for starters... Neither Randy Mills nor MHE are educational institutions, and they act accordingly. Need I remind you that Randy made a big point of differentiating himself from all LENR workers of that time with his hydrino theory. If he hadn't, the investment money would not have been there, I can assure you. It was a gamble. If he's right, he owns the field. If not, history will remember him as someone who had all the right experiments but was too attached to his own ideas about the thing to understand what he was seeing. Perhaps he should take up the study of Zen, huh? (smile) Anyway, now that you've stuck your neck out so far on this thing, why don't you do a bit of due dilligence yourself and research the prior art over on Espacenet and USPTO. A few tangible facts will go a long way towards solidifying your position. We'd all learn something from that. K. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 3 12:45:56 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA27745; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:43:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:43:25 -0700 Message-ID: <005901c37253$94422240$6501a8c0@geh> From: "George Holz" To: References: <001d01c371b0$af1249e0$8837fea9@cpq> Subject: Re: ICCF10 News Flash in new LENR-CANR.org section Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:42:47 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Sep 2003 19:42:05.0054 (UTC) FILETIME=[740061E0:01C37253] Resent-Message-ID: <"JiXWg.0.On6.SHaL_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51731 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jones, At least one of the Mitsubishi papers from earlier ICCF conferences is on the len-canr website. Please read it. Chubb's description is colored by his theory of what is happening and you are confused about the actual experiment. The catalyst would be calcium oxide interlayered with Pd. The transmutation reported this year is Cs to Pr. The work is very clean and hard to fault. One replication was also reported at the conference and several others are underway. Many other transmutations have been seen including different but always even numbers of deuterons. I attended the conference, as did Gene and Jed. Mills patents may not cover this and other experiments presented. George Holz Varitronics Systems From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 3 13:26:49 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA26746; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:23:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:23:43 -0700 X-Peer-Info: remote-ip 199.125.98.231 local-ip 199.125.85.40 local-name mercury.mv.net User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 16:22:28 -0700 Subject: Re: Impressions of ICCF-10 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "vortex l eskimo.com" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030903115446.00badc50@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ldEBa3.0.mX6.FtaL_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51732 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 9/3/03 9:04 AM, "Jed Rothwell" wrote: > Gene Mallove recorded all talks with a digital video camera. He plans to > make video DVDs. I do not know whether he has permission to sell them, or > whether he plans to sell them, but if he can make them available they may > be a valuable resource. They will be made available at reasonable prices as part of New Energy Foundation's non-profit fundraising activities and to further the cause of CF/LENR. Expect details to be posted within 3-4 weeks. > I am a little concerned about sound quality. In > previous years sound quality has been poor, but the hotel had a pretty good > sound system. It is a shame Gene could not plug in directly into the hotel > sound system. The sound quality of the Sony digital camera is excellent -- from at least one talk that I listened to. Dr. Eugene F. Mallove New Energy Foundation, Inc. Infinite Energy Magazine P.O. Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 Ph: 603-485-4700 Fx: 603-485-4710 www.infinite-energy.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 3 14:29:36 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA06813; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:27:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:27:31 -0700 Message-ID: <006c01c37262$1a684b70$0300a8c0@ggrf30j> Reply-To: "Nick Palmer" From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030903115446.00badc50@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Impressions of ICCF-10 Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 22:26:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"tCKoC3.0.Lg1.2pbL_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51733 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: <> Made by Scott Little???and it was still observed? My God! Nick Palmer P.S. But I bet he was nowhere near the experiment at the time! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 3 15:14:33 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA01243; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:12:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:12:03 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:18:58 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: ICCF10 News Flash in new LENR-CANR.org section Resent-Message-ID: <"qlq-n.0.FJ.pScL_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51734 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:35 AM 9/3/3, Jones Beene wrote: >Mills has published extensively in Fusion Technology going back 12 years. >These same Mitsubishi researchers also published there. It is pretty >certain that they have subscribed to Fusion Technology for many years, in >their line of work. I don't like researchers, foreign or domestic, who try >this "I didn't know" thing when a simple web search or Dialog search would >have given them notice of similar research done by others. > >It's called "due diligence." > Due diligence is required for more for patents than for publishing. Peer review is generally a sufficient screen for serious scientific publishing. If Mills work were so important and credible then the reviewers would surely know of it and object to a lack of appropriate references. If you feel this is somehow not so then you probably have a duty to contact any serious publishers or future publishers involved. However, if the reviewers think Mills work has low credibility, they likley will not require a reference, and in fact would probably avoid it. The fact is, Mills work, especially the theoretical part, has been brought into serious question, even on his own list, and with insufficient response in the opinion of some (at least when I was subscribed to the list.) . Further, even Mills integrity was brought into question by Aaron Barth (see below.) The question must arise then: just who is scamming whom, if anybody? Just who has a long standing record of high qualifications, integrity and achievement? As far as I am concerned, Fleischmann and Pons are fathers of CF, and great men yet to be adequately recognized for their heroic and ground breaking efforts. Bockris and others are close on their heels for exapnding the field into low energy nuclear reactions in general. As to whether Mills and his extensive team can produce anything of actual use - that remains to be seen, despite his slew of patents. The fact he might claim hydrinos "account for everything in CF" is meaningless. That is not too different from someone claiming that they have invented an over unity motor and thus all overuinty motor designs are their intellectual property. The winner of the great intellectual property race will produce repeatability, wide replication, nearly universal acceptance of principles, and most important of all, useful engineering principles and device designs that produce commercially viable products. It remains to be seen who will achieve the latter. At 3:51 PM 10/16/0, ab1097@disinfo.net [Aaron Barth] wrote: [snip] >I was looking over some of the material in Dr. Mills's book today and >found something rather shocking. I was reading the section on general >relativity and I wanted to double-check something that was written >there, so I went to my GR textbook (R. M. Wald, General Relativity, >1984, Univ. of Chicago Press). I was very surprised to discover that >much of what I was reading in Mills's book was identical, >word-for-word, to what was in Wald's textbook. > >Specifically: most of pages 370-377 appears to have been copied >straight from Wald pages 94-113. I'm not talking about just a few >similar phrases here and there. This appears to be large-scale, >verbatim lifting of whole paragraphs and pages of copyrighted material >without proper attribution. The equations are copied down identically >too, and so are Table 23.3 and Figure 23.2. There are a few >differences: Mills has inserted a few sentences here and there where >he states his own opinions, and changed the wording very slightly in a >few places, and he's changed the numbering of the equations and >figures to match his own chapters. But for the most part, what's >written is a direct copy. [snip] >This may not be an isolated incident. In looking at the ultraviolet >astronomy section of Mills's book, I also happened to notice that >several sentences on p. 759 are copied more or less verbatim from >Bowyer (1994, Science, 263: 55) and from Monsignori Fossi et >al. (1995, The Astrophysical Journal, 449: 376). Again, the >appropriate thing would have been either to paraphrase, or to put the >quoted material in quotes. [snip] > >-Aaron Barth Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 3 18:15:15 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA20567; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 18:12:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 18:12:48 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [170.215.63.106] X-Originating-Email: [joe_champion@hotmail.com] From: "Joe's Hotmail" To: References: Subject: A demonstration of over-unity :~) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 18:12:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_018B_01C37246.E5AE52F0"; type="text/plain" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Sep 2003 01:12:16.0620 (UTC) FILETIME=[949D72C0:01C37281] Resent-Message-ID: <"m7nog3.0.G15.G6fL_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51735 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_018B_01C37246.E5AE52F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe Champion JChampion@adamtechnology.net http://www.adamtechnology.net ------=_NextPart_000_018B_01C37246.E5AE52F0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="ssgas.jpg" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Location: http://www.erationalnews.com/taxes/ssgas.jpg /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQEASABIAAD/2wBDAAoHBwgHBgoICAgLCgoLDhgQDg0NDh0VFhEYIx8lJCIf IiEmKzcvJik0KSEiMEExNDk7Pj4+JS5ESUM8SDc9Pjv/2wBDAQoLCw4NDhwQEBw7KCIoOzs7Ozs7 Ozs7Ozs7Ozs7Ozs7Ozs7Ozs7Ozs7Ozs7Ozs7Ozs7Ozs7Ozs7Ozs7Ozs7Ozv/wAARCAFTAYEDASIA AhEBAxEB/8QAGwAAAgMBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIDBAUBBgf/xABUEAABAwMBBAQJCQQHBQYGAwAC AAEDBBESBRMhIjEGMkFRFBVCUmFicYHRIzNUcoKRk6GxQ1OSwQcWJGOi4fBzdZSy0iU0RFVlgyY1 RVZk8YTC8v/EABsBAQEBAQEBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAACAQMEBQYH/8QAKBEBAAICAgEDBAMAAwAAAAAA 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8+/QyglqWqZ6islnBrRTHVSEcbdrC7vuZ+1u3tU+ndF6XT9RKueWWeZxwEpSvgN74i3Jmvv3LbQs 4wMSTopp7GR0bz0Lm7uQ0s5xC7v24i7N+SA6JaYNM0ZhKUomUg1DSm0wkXN2kvlv9q27ITjA81L0 JoqmUfC6qqqYRLJoZZiIL97jyd/S6vy9HKIsygOopTktkVPUyRsVmszuwkzXszNe3YtZCcYLYFN0 P0+jikamkqoZZXykljqpRI3ve5WLe+/m+9FN0QoKSKRqeWrillfKSWOrlEpH7ydi4n383W+hOMFs /SdHp9IhkCBzJ5Tc5DkNzIyftd3e7rRXF1bEUBCELQIQhAIQhAIQhAIQhAIQhAIQhAIQhAIQhAIQ hAIQhAIQhAIQhAIQhAIQhAIQhAIQhALiEIBCEIBdQhAIQhAIQhAIQhAIQhAIQhAIQhAIQhAIQhAI QhAIQhB//9k= ------=_NextPart_000_018B_01C37246.E5AE52F0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 4 02:25:18 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id CAA25715; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 02:24:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 02:24:27 -0700 Message-ID: <000f01c372c6$42f61360$0300a8c0@ggrf30j> Reply-To: "Nick Palmer" From: "Nick Palmer" To: "Mike Carrell" Cc: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030903115446.00badc50@pop.mindspring.com> <006c01c37262$1a684b70$0300a8c0@ggrf30j> <003001c3727b$b8c79fa0$e97accd1@asus> Subject: Re: Impressions of ICCF-10 Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 10:23:50 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"5pXWy3.0.aH6.AJmL_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51736 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote:- <> Erm, I was joking Mike! On Vortex, it became an article of faith that if Scott investigated any over-unity claim, that he wouldn't find anything exciting because of the "experimenter effect"... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 4 06:27:50 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA24305; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 06:26:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 06:26:47 -0700 Message-ID: <3F573D70.80201@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 09:26:08 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Impressions of ICCF-10 References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030903115446.00badc50@pop.mindspring.com> <006c01c37262$1a684b70$0300a8c0@ggrf30j> <003001c3727b$b8c79fa0$e97accd1@asus> <000f01c372c6$42f61360$0300a8c0@ggrf30j> In-Reply-To: <000f01c372c6$42f61360$0300a8c0@ggrf30j> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"GXUGh3.0.cx5.MspL_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51737 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nick Palmer wrote: >Mike Carrell wrote:- > ><> > >Erm, I was joking Mike! On Vortex, it became an article of faith that if >Scott investigated any over-unity claim, that he wouldn't find anything >exciting because of the "experimenter effect"... > Yes, we accused Scott (jokingly) of an inverse Hutchison Effect, the "Little Effect". :-) Interesting that there is nothing on http://earthtech.org/ about the Letts and Craven experiment that I can find. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 4 07:18:42 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA25673; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 07:16:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 07:16:33 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030904101106.00b03640@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 10:16:03 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Scott Little and the Letts-Cravens experiment Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"ML7VI1.0.zG6.0bqL_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51738 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nick Palmer wrote: > The experiment has been moved into > increasingly sophisticated calorimeters made by Scott Little, but the heat > is still observed>> > > Made by Scott Little???and it was still observed? My God! It is remarkable. I just sent him a message: "Scott: Do you agree unequivocally that the Letts-Cravens experiment is producing excess heat, or do you still have doubts?" I predict he will say he has doubts. > P.S. But I bet he was nowhere near the experiment at the time. Ed Storms and others have witnessed him standing right next to it while it was producing excess heat. It could be a body-double but it would be hard to find a stand-in as big as Little. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 4 11:20:04 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA11314; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:17:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:17:16 -0700 X-Peer-Info: remote-ip 199.125.98.213 local-ip 199.125.85.40 local-name mercury.mv.net User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 14:15:43 -0700 Subject: Very Brief ICCF10 editorial From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "vortex l eskimo.com" Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id LAA11056 Resent-Message-ID: <"qi12V2.0.am2.h6uL_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51739 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Below is a brief editorial for the next issue of Infinite Energy (#51), which is going to press ASAP. Almost the entire focus of IE#51 concerns a new energy discovery that is, only superficially, unrelated to CF/LENR proper, but it has been verified by several major players within CF/LENR, who wish (and need) to remain anonymous. I will not be discussing this matter until the issue comes out in 2-3 weeks. Tomorrow -- Sept 5, 2003 -- there is expected to be some CF/LENR coverage by a major national publication that sent a reporter to the conference. Best wishes, Dr. Eugene F. Mallove New Energy Foundation, Inc. Infinite Energy Magazine P.O. Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 Ph: 603-485-4700 Fx: 603-485-4710 www.infinite-energy.com _____ ICCF10: A Message from the Front by Dr. Eugene Mallove Editor in Chief, Infinite Energy Magazine www.infinite-energy.com As we send this issue of Infinite Energy to our printing company in Manchester, New Hampshire in early September, we have just returned from the exhilarating Tenth International Conference on Cold Fusion (ICCF10) in Cambridge, Massachusetts ‹ very near and also at MIT. Yes, there was an historic set of excess-heat-producing cold fusion demonstrations at Prof. Peter L. Hagelstein¹s offices at MIT in the Dept. of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science! There is a staggering amount of news about cold fusion and low-energy nuclear reactions (LENR) to report from the conference ‹a lot to digest even for a veteran attendee of ICCF¹s. Time and space do not allow a lengthy report in this Infinite Energy, but it is likely that by the time you receive this issue I will have posted a special review of ICCF10 on our web site www.infinite-energy.com. Of course, there will be a full hard-copy report in the next issue of the magazine (out in November), and readers should also consult the material being posted on www.lenr-canr.org. Infinite Energy¹s non-profit New Energy Foundation, Inc. plans to offer soon one or more DVD¹s that will highlight important conference lectures ‹ and possibly a set of DVD¹s covering the entire conference. For now and to whet your appetite for more information, here are some of the high points to be taken from ICCF10: € During ICCF10, Dr. Mitchell Swartz¹s Fleischmann/Pons-type electrolytic palladium Phusor/low electrolyte conductance heavy water/platinum cell performed flawlessly in Prof. Hagelstein¹s lab at MIT. Its excess power ranged from 167% to 267% as Dr. Swartz altered the experimental conditions. This excess heat, as measured by his precision calorimeter, persisted from Sunday August 24 to August 30, longer than ICCF10 itself. The excess heat was interrupted on the last day only to bring the equipment back to Wellesley, MA‹ otherwise it would have continued much longer. €Prof. John Dash of the physics department at Portland State University in Oregon and his summer high school student interns also put on historic demonstrations of excess heat at Prof. Hagelstein¹s lab. They used simple but effective calorimetric apparatus, which allowed observers to check the level of excess heat for themselves. This proves that even high-school students can be more effective on the frontiers of science than the US Department of Energy and the 1,000-plus MIT professors who did not attend ICCF10. Only two MIT professors attended ‹ Prof. Hagelstein and ex-Prof. Keith Johnson, both of whom have been involved in the field since its early days. (This, despite the 150 to 200 ICCF10 posters that I had earlier placed around MIT and a prominent ad in the Boston Globe which Prof. Hagelstein paid for from his personal funds.) Only a few MIT students showed up ‹outnumbered by the high-school students in Prof. Dash¹s group from Portland State University in Oregon. (It should be noted that both the Boston Globe and the Boston Herald chose to boycott the conference, despite having been repeatedly alerted about its significance.) €What is now being called the Letts-Cravens Effect‹ excess heat stimulated by laser light irradiation of cold fusion electrolytic cell cathodes‹has now been independently observed by three outside groups: Dr. Michael McKubre of SRI International, Dr. Edmund Storms in New Mexico, and Dr. Mitchell Swartz in Wellesley, Massachusetts. This phenomenon, you may recall, was the subject of the ³Fire from Water² cover story in the last issue of IE. Low-level laser light power is input and a huge excess power excess emerges, for example: 30 milliwatts input, 1 watt output (a 30-fold multiplication of input power). This is evidently a highly repeatable effect‹one that has the potential of breaking though into numerous other labs around the world. € Dr. James Patterson and his colleagues from Sarasota, Florida revealed a stunningly simple, robust and ingenious gas-phase cold fusion reactor that has produced excess heat for months on end. Full details will be provided to the public in the near term; he is not seeking patent protection at this point. €Helium-4 correlated with excess heat has been observed now in a solid-state LENR device by a laboratory effort sponsored by the Italian government. €The astonishing nuclear transmutation experiment carried out by the Iwamura group at Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Advanced Technology Division, which was reported in Infinite Energy (No.47, pp.14-18) and later published in the Japanese Journal of Applied Physics has now been reproduced by the A. Takahashi group at Osaka University. In this experiment, deuterium (heavy hydrogen) gas is made to flow through a palladium membrane onto which another element, such as cesium or strontium, has been deposited. With no energy input (other than the pressure of the gas) the deposited element transmutes to another element. For example, cesium declines and the rare earth element praesodymium appears and grows. Or, strontium declines and molybdenum grows. The term ³grow² is appropriate, since to make the new elements, it is necessary for the starting nuclei to ³absorb² four deuterium nuclei! Obviously, this flies completely in the face of every cannon of basic chemistry, but the evidence for the result is now overwhelming. It is nothing short of modern alchemy. €Finally, we are delighted to report that a company in Israel, Energetics Technologies Limited, which began its multi-million dollar cold fusion effort only two years ago, has already achieved excess heat in a variety of processes. Funded by investors in the United States, the fifteen-member staff of Energetics Limited is aiming directly at the commercialization of the technology. The leader of the effort Dr. Arie El-Boher made a stunning presentation at ICCF10, which caused many jaws to drop. There is much more, but I need to end these highlights. Though the ³cold fusion war² has not yet been won‹ and it could still be lost, the field seems to have picked itself up with the remarkable turning point of ICCF10. ICCF11 will be in Marseilles, France in October 2004. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 4 15:19:40 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA25049; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 15:16:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 15:16:29 -0700 Message-ID: <410-2200394422163131@mindspring.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: JedRothwell@mindspring.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2003.3.84.0 (Windows) From: "Jed Rothwell" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Energetics Technology abstract Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 18:16:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c65eca3ea6b69c85936bf3daf876f0da289cb85e3534d2ef3350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: <"hTh7q.0.E76.zcxL_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51740 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Eugene F. Mallove wrote: > Finally, we are delighted to report that a company in Israel, Energetics > Technologies Limited, which began its multi-million dollar cold fusion > effort only two years ago, has already achieved excess heat in a variety of > processes. Funded by investors in the United States, the fifteen-member > staff of Energetics Limited is aiming directly at the commercialization of > the technology. The leader of the effort Dr. Arie El-Boher made a stunning > presentation at ICCF10, which caused many jaws to drop. Yes. I forgot to mention this in my brief message about ICCF10. The Energetic Tech. presentation was remarkable. But, to quibble a little, they used only standard, long-accepted methods of doing CF. They did produce excess heat every time, which is a remarkable accomplishment, but unless their "superwave excitation" theory is correct, they have not broken any new ground as far as I can see. Unfortunately, they submitted their abstract too late for inclusion in the book. Perhaps I should add it to the on-line post-conference version now at LENR-CANR.org. Attached is the text from the abstract. On a completely unrelated topic, last night I tried a generic version of cold medicine called "Nyquil." It works sort of like in these old movies when someone is clobbered over the head with a bottle and he instantly falls unconscious. Or maybe it would be called "Mickey Finn" in old-movie-ology. Remarkable stuff, but is it really legal in all 50 states? - Jed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - INTENSIFICATION OF LOW ENERGY NUCLEAR REACTIONS THROUGH SUPERWAVE (c) EXCITATION Irving Dardik Herman Branover Arik El-Boher G. Gazit B. Hachaturov V. Krakov S. Lesin T. Zilov Energetics Technologies, 7 Fieldview Lane, Califon, New Jersey, 07830, irv@energetics.us Energetics Technologies (ET) was recently established in Omer (Israel) to investigate intensification of Low Energy Nuclear Reactions (LENR) using excitation by SuperWaves©. SuperWaves is defined as a low frequency carrying wave with several successive stages of amplitude and frequency modulation – waves waving within waves. All stages of modulation are interrelated non-linearly. The inventor of the SuperWaves – Dr. Irving Dardik – has experimentally proven that these very special wave patterns are efficient in accelerating and intensifying different processes in metallurgy, biochemistry, health and other fields. Four experimental approaches are being pursued: glow-discharge, electrolysis, gas loading in catalytic cells and high-pressure/high-temperature cells with ultrasonic wave excitation. The purpose of this paper is to describe the experiments pursued in each of these approaches and to report upon preliminary results obtained. The following is a brief summary of results: A significant amount of excess heat was measured in the first glow discharge experiment. The power generated during the experiment was up to 3.9 times the input power. When driven with SuperWaves the excess heat was higher than when driven with DC. A significant amount of excess heat was also measured after the shutdown of the cell, lasting for approximately 10 hours following the cell shutdown. The total excess energy generated is estimated to be 6.7 times the input energy. The “heat-after-death” phenomenon was also observed in another glow discharge experiment. Excess heat up to approximately 80°C was measured over a period of 2 weeks in yet another glow discharge experiment. Driving the electrolytic cells with SuperWaves resulted in a faster loading than when driving it with DC of the same average current. Some electrolytic cells produced excess heat continuously for several weeks. The tritium concentration measured in the electrolyte at the end of the experiments, was found to be more than 100% of the pre-experiment level. No excess heat has been measured thus far in the catalytic cells. Successful loading of Pd target with D was obtained in the high-pressure/high-temperature gas cell. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 4 21:42:09 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA06191; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 21:40:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 21:40:11 -0700 Message-ID: <007d01c37357$d0352a40$9301bf3f@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Intrinsic OU Effects in Water? Aqueous Ions & Binding Energies Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 21:45:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94050afac38683cf6153007ec459249153e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: <"sOX3B3.0.UW1.dE1M_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51741 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In light of what Gene Mallove and Jed Rothwell have posted about the ICCF10 papers, and they might have missed these thread posts last week, FWIW: Regards Frederick ........................................................................... From: Frederick Sparber Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 08:56:45 A possibility arrived at by Jones Beene and Frederick Sparber. Given that the atmosphere contains appreciable quantities of negative (O2-) ions created by cosmic rays, solar ultraviolet, power lines, lightning, and combustion, that can be absorbed by water, it seems possible that an exothermic "chain reaction" can be set up in water and show up as Over-Unity Heat: (O2-)aq/gas + (H3O+)aq ---> H + H2O + O2 or (O2-)aq/gas + (K+)aq + (OH-)aq ---> K + O2 + (OH-)aq K + H2O ---> H + (K+)aq + (OH-)aq + (e-)aq + Heat (e-)aq + (K+)aq + (OH-)aq ---> K + (OH-)aq K + H2O ---> H + (K+)aq + (OH-)aq + (e-)aq + Heat And so on, producing "heat after death" as noticed in the P&F electrolysis cells, and heat in the Griggs-Huffman-Yusmar pumps etc. The Recombiner Catalyst would burn the Hydrogen produced, thus creating more OU Heat. joule/mole eV/bond (O2-)aq - 43,440 0.45 (OH-)aq - 157,406 1.63 (Li +)aq - 70,100 0.73 (Na +)aq - 62,593 0.65 (K +)aq - 67,700 0.70 (H3O +)aq - 71,000 0.73 H-H 436,000 4.53 H-OH 498,360 5.17 O-O 498,360 5.17 O-H 427,500 4.44 H-OOH 369,000 3.83 HO-OH 213,000 2.21 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 5 06:05:03 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA30794; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 06:02:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 06:02:51 -0700 X-Peer-Info: remote-ip 199.125.98.206 local-ip 199.125.85.40 local-name mercury.mv.net User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 09:01:33 -0700 Subject: Wall Street Journal on Cold Fusion -- 9/5/03 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "vortex l eskimo.com" Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id GAA30730 Resent-Message-ID: <"o7_6a2.0.wW7.wb8M_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51742 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Sharon Begley's "Science Journal" column in today's Wall Street Journal (Friday, Sept 5, 2003, p.B1) is a commentary, not a news account, about the Tenth International Conference on Cold Fusion (ICCF10), which was held in Cambridge, MA Aug 24-29, 2003. Ms. Begley attended ICCF10 for the first two days of the conference proper -- 9/25-26. Her piece is bannered: "Cold Fusion Isn't Dead, It's Just Withering from Scientific Neglect." Don¹t look for detailed understanding of what went on at ICCF10. It is not there, so in some sense this column, though we very much appreciate its appearance at all, in effect does for cold fusion what the columnist is lamenting! Ms. Begley writes: "What these claims need is critical scrutiny by skeptics. That is how science normally functions. But in Cold Fusion, it isn't. And that's the worst pathology of all." At another point she writes, "But the real pathology is the breakdown of the normal channels of scientific communication, with no scientists outside the tight-knit cold fusion tribe bothering to scrutinize its claims." Indeed it is a terrible pathology that scientific papers on cold fusion/low-energy nuclear reactions are rejected outright -- WITHOUT REVIEW -- at publications such as Science, Nature and Physical Review. But science journalists must also be faulted -- not just the obstructing scientists. Science journalists should be holding the establishment's feet to the fire -- requiring Establishment mouthpieces to provide *detailed scientific responses* -- not just bigoted blather-- to the on-going, highly successful cold fusion/LENR experiments. What happened to the "good old days" at the Wall Street Journal when Jerry Bishop (now retired) felt it the duty of science journalism to report the FACTS -- what was reported at a particular conference and "to hell" with what the critics were saying, though these were appropriately given their space in Bishop's exemplary reporting. I hope that The Wall Street Journal wakes up -- but don't hold your breath. Bishop had told me before he retired that the Journal editors were holding him back from more extensive coverage. Still, we are grateful that an intelligent reporter, Sharon Begley, attended some of the conference and put her finger on the central problem facing the CF/LENR field. For this, we thank her. For those who might be surprised by the dearth of information on the conference in the Wall Street Journal coverage -- they perhaps expected a more extensive news account‹- below I offer my editorial for Infinite Energy #51 (Sept.-Oct. 2003), which providing some highlights. Dr. Eugene F. Mallove New Energy Foundation, Inc. Infinite Energy Magazine P.O. Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 Ph: 603-485-4700 Fx: 603-485-4710 www.infinite-energy.com ***** ICCF10: A Message from the Front by Dr. Eugene Mallove Editor in Chief, Infinite Energy Magazine www.infinite-energy.com As we send this issue of Infinite Energy to our printing company in Manchester, New Hampshire in early September, we have just returned from the exhilarating Tenth International Conference on Cold Fusion (ICCF10) in Cambridge, Massachusetts ‹ very near and also at MIT. Yes, there was an historic set of excess-heat-producing cold fusion demonstrations at Prof. Peter L. Hagelstein¹s offices at MIT in the Dept. of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science! There is a staggering amount of news about cold fusion and low-energy nuclear reactions (LENR) to report from the conference ‹a lot to digest even for a veteran attendee of ICCF¹s. Time and space do not allow a lengthy report in this Infinite Energy, but it is likely that by the time you receive this issue I will have posted a special review of ICCF10 on our web site www.infinite-energy.com. Of course, there will be a full hard-copy report in the next issue of the magazine (out in November), and readers should also consult the material being posted on www.lenr-canr.org. Infinite Energy¹s non-profit New Energy Foundation, Inc. plans to offer soon one or more DVD¹s that will highlight important conference lectures ‹ and possibly a set of DVD¹s covering the entire conference. For now and to whet your appetite for more information, here are some of the high points to be taken from ICCF10: € During ICCF10, Dr. Mitchell Swartz¹s Fleischmann/Pons-type electrolytic palladium Phusor/low electrolyte conductance heavy water/platinum cell performed flawlessly in Prof. Hagelstein¹s lab at MIT. Its excess power ranged from 167% to 267% as Dr. Swartz altered the experimental conditions. This excess heat, as measured by his precision calorimeter, persisted from Sunday August 24 to August 30, longer than ICCF10 itself. The excess heat was interrupted on the last day only to bring the equipment back to Wellesley, MA‹ otherwise it would have continued much longer. €Prof. John Dash of the physics department at Portland State University in Oregon and his summer high school student interns also put on historic demonstrations of excess heat at Prof. Hagelstein¹s lab. They used simple but effective calorimetric apparatus, which allowed observers to check the level of excess heat for themselves. This proves that even high-school students can be more effective on the frontiers of science than the US Department of Energy and the 1,000-plus MIT professors who did not attend ICCF10. Only two MIT professors attended ‹ Prof. Hagelstein and ex-Prof. Keith Johnson, both of whom have been involved in the field since its early days. (This, despite the 150 to 200 ICCF10 posters that I had earlier placed around MIT and a prominent ad in the Boston Globe which Prof. Hagelstein paid for from his personal funds.) Only a few MIT students showed up ‹outnumbered by the high-school students in Prof. Dash¹s group from Portland State University in Oregon. (It should be noted that both the Boston Globe and the Boston Herald chose to boycott the conference, despite having been repeatedly alerted about its significance.) €What is now being called the Letts-Cravens Effect‹ excess heat stimulated by laser light irradiation of cold fusion electrolytic cell cathodes‹has now been independently observed by three outside groups: Dr. Michael McKubre of SRI International, Dr. Edmund Storms in New Mexico, and Dr. Mitchell Swartz in Wellesley, Massachusetts. This phenomenon, you may recall, was the subject of the ³Fire from Water² cover story in the last issue of IE. Low-level laser light power is input and a huge excess power excess emerges, for example: 30 milliwatts input, 1 watt output (a 30-fold multiplication of input power). This is evidently a highly repeatable effect‹one that has the potential of breaking though into numerous other labs around the world. € Dr. James Patterson and his colleagues from Sarasota, Florida revealed a stunningly simple, robust and ingenious gas-phase cold fusion reactor that has produced excess heat for months on end. Full details will be provided to the public in the near term; he is not seeking patent protection at this point. €Helium-4 correlated with excess heat has been observed now in a solid-state LENR device by a laboratory effort sponsored by the Italian government. €The astonishing nuclear transmutation experiment carried out by the Iwamura group at Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Advanced Technology Division, which was reported in Infinite Energy (No.47, pp.14-18) and later published in the Japanese Journal of Applied Physics has now been reproduced by the A. Takahashi group at Osaka University. In this experiment, deuterium (heavy hydrogen) gas is made to flow through a palladium membrane onto which another element, such as cesium or strontium, has been deposited. With no energy input (other than the pressure of the gas) the deposited element transmutes to another element. For example, cesium declines and the rare earth element praesodymium appears and grows. Or, strontium declines and molybdenum grows. The term ³grow² is appropriate, since to make the new elements, it is necessary for the starting nuclei to ³absorb² four deuterium nuclei! Obviously, this flies completely in the face of every cannon of basic chemistry, but the evidence for the result is now overwhelming. It is nothing short of modern alchemy. €Finally, we are delighted to report that a company in Israel, Energetics Technologies Limited, which began its multi-million dollar cold fusion effort only two years ago, has already achieved excess heat in a variety of processes. Funded by investors in the United States, the fifteen-member staff of Energetics Limited is aiming directly at the commercialization of the technology. The leader of the effort Dr. Arie El-Boher made a stunning presentation at ICCF10, which caused many jaws to drop. There is much more, but I need to end these highlights. Though the ³cold fusion war² has not yet been won‹ and it could still be lost, the field seems to have picked itself up with the remarkable turning point of ICCF10. ICCF11 will be in Marseilles, France in October 2004. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 5 07:49:33 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA02217; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 07:47:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 07:47:28 -0700 Message-ID: <3F58A1DC.5090502@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 10:46:52 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Scepticism Waning? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ig2e_2.0.LY.-7AM_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51743 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I stumbled across the web site of Ludwik Kowalski, http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/index.html It appears that this teacher has had a recent epiphany: http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/00_project.html I particularly like his quote: I am no longer comfortable saying that “cold fusion is voodoo-science.” I am a physics teacher; how should I answer questions about cold fusion? This should give us all a "warm fuzzy". From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 5 07:59:36 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA07936; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 07:57:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 07:57:04 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030905105548.01899430@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 10:56:59 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Response from Little regarding Letts-Cravens Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Ys_aM.0.px1.0HAM_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51744 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Here is a message from Scott Little: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Do you agree unequivocally that the Letts-Cravens experiment is producing > excess heat, or do you still have doubts? > > - Jed Jed, I definitely still have doubts. However, Letts can make SOMETHING happen in this cell and I aim to find out if it is genuine excess heat. We are currently designing a calorimeter that will make that determination with confidence and reliability. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - JR From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 5 09:36:21 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA01470; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 09:32:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 09:32:37 -0700 Message-ID: <3F58BAD5.9793CD66@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 09:33:25 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wall Street Journal on Cold Fusion -- 9/5/03 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"sg_eV3.0.sM.agBM_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51745 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: September 05, 2003 Vortex, I just read the column on the "Marketplace" section of the WSJ this morning. I do run about three hours later than the east coast. Nice to see a mention of the ICCF-10. I guess these things have to be held 'in your face' to our U.S. to get attention. How lazy can science journalism get, even with a free press pass? -ak- "Eugene F. Mallove" wrote: > Sharon Begley's "Science Journal" column in today's Wall Street Journal > (Friday, Sept 5, 2003, p.B1) is a commentary, not a news account, about the > Tenth International Conference on Cold Fusion (ICCF10), which was held in > Cambridge, MA Aug 24-29, 2003. Ms. Begley attended ICCF10 for the first > two days of the conference proper -- 9/25-26. > > Her piece is bannered: "Cold Fusion Isn't Dead, It's Just Withering from > Scientific Neglect." > > Don¹t look for detailed understanding of what went on at ICCF10. It is not > there, so in some sense this column, though we very much appreciate its > appearance at all, in effect does for cold fusion what the columnist is > lamenting! Ms. Begley writes: "What these claims need is critical scrutiny > by skeptics. That is how science normally functions. But in Cold Fusion, it > isn't. And that's the worst pathology of all." At another point she writes, > "But the real pathology is the breakdown of the normal channels of > scientific communication, with no scientists outside the tight-knit cold > fusion tribe bothering to scrutinize its claims." > > Indeed it is a terrible pathology that scientific papers on cold > fusion/low-energy nuclear reactions are rejected outright -- WITHOUT REVIEW > -- at publications such as Science, Nature and Physical Review. But science > journalists must also be faulted -- not just the obstructing scientists. > Science journalists should be holding the establishment's feet to the fire > -- requiring Establishment mouthpieces to provide *detailed scientific > responses* -- not just bigoted blather-- to the on-going, highly successful > cold fusion/LENR experiments. > > What happened to the "good old days" at the Wall Street Journal when Jerry > Bishop (now retired) felt it the duty of science journalism to report the > FACTS -- what was reported at a particular conference and "to hell" with > what the critics were saying, though these were appropriately given their > space in Bishop's exemplary reporting. I hope that The Wall Street Journal > wakes up -- but don't hold your breath. Bishop had told me before he retired > that the Journal editors were holding him back from more extensive coverage. > > Still, we are grateful that an intelligent reporter, Sharon Begley, attended > some of the conference and put her finger on the central problem facing the > CF/LENR field. For this, we thank her. > > For those who might be surprised by the dearth of information on the > conference in the Wall Street Journal coverage -- they perhaps expected a > more extensive news account‹- below I offer my editorial for Infinite Energy > #51 (Sept.-Oct. 2003), which providing some highlights. > > Dr. Eugene F. Mallove > New Energy Foundation, Inc. > Infinite Energy Magazine > P.O. Box 2816 > Concord, NH 03302-2816 > > Ph: 603-485-4700 > Fx: 603-485-4710 > www.infinite-energy.com > > ***** > > ICCF10: A Message from the Front > by Dr. Eugene Mallove > Editor in Chief, Infinite Energy Magazine www.infinite-energy.com > > As we send this issue of Infinite Energy to our printing company in > Manchester, New Hampshire in early September, we have just returned from the > exhilarating Tenth International Conference on Cold Fusion (ICCF10) in > Cambridge, Massachusetts ‹ very near and also at MIT. Yes, there was an > historic set of excess-heat-producing cold fusion demonstrations at Prof. > Peter L. Hagelstein¹s offices at MIT in the Dept. of Electrical Engineering > and Computer Science! There is a staggering amount of news about cold > fusion and low-energy nuclear reactions (LENR) to report from the conference > ‹a lot to digest even for a veteran attendee of ICCF¹s. Time and space do > not allow a lengthy report in this Infinite Energy, but it is likely that by > the time you receive this issue I will have posted a special review of > ICCF10 on our web site www.infinite-energy.com. Of course, there will be a > full hard-copy report in the next issue of the magazine (out in November), > and readers should also consult the material being posted on > www.lenr-canr.org. Infinite Energy¹s non-profit New Energy Foundation, Inc. > plans to offer soon one or more DVD¹s that will highlight important > conference lectures ‹ and possibly a set of DVD¹s covering the entire > conference. > > For now and to whet your appetite for more information, here are some of the > high points to be taken from ICCF10: > > € During ICCF10, Dr. Mitchell Swartz¹s Fleischmann/Pons-type electrolytic > palladium Phusor/low electrolyte conductance heavy water/platinum cell > performed flawlessly in Prof. Hagelstein¹s lab at MIT. Its excess power > ranged from 167% to 267% as Dr. Swartz altered the experimental conditions. > This excess heat, as measured by his precision calorimeter, persisted from > Sunday August 24 to August 30, longer than ICCF10 itself. The excess heat > was interrupted on the last day only to bring the equipment back to > Wellesley, MA‹ otherwise it would have continued much longer. > > €Prof. John Dash of the physics department at Portland State University in > Oregon and his summer high school student interns also put on historic > demonstrations of excess heat at Prof. Hagelstein¹s lab. They used simple > but effective calorimetric apparatus, which allowed observers to check the > level of excess heat for themselves. This proves that even high-school > students can be more effective on the frontiers of science than the US > Department of Energy and the 1,000-plus MIT professors who did not attend > ICCF10. Only two MIT professors attended ‹ Prof. Hagelstein and ex-Prof. > Keith Johnson, both of whom have been involved in the field since its early > days. (This, despite the 150 to 200 ICCF10 posters that I had earlier placed > around MIT and a prominent ad in the Boston Globe which Prof. Hagelstein > paid for from his personal funds.) Only a few MIT students showed up > ‹outnumbered by the high-school students in Prof. Dash¹s group from Portland > State University in Oregon. (It should be noted that both the Boston Globe > and the Boston Herald chose to boycott the conference, despite having been > repeatedly alerted about its significance.) > > €What is now being called the Letts-Cravens Effect‹ excess heat stimulated > by laser light irradiation of cold fusion electrolytic cell cathodes‹has now > been independently observed by three outside groups: Dr. Michael McKubre of > SRI International, Dr. Edmund Storms in New Mexico, and Dr. Mitchell Swartz > in Wellesley, Massachusetts. This phenomenon, you may recall, was the > subject of the ³Fire from Water² cover story in the last issue of IE. > Low-level laser light power is input and a huge excess power excess emerges, > for example: 30 milliwatts input, 1 watt output (a 30-fold multiplication of > input power). This is evidently a highly repeatable effect‹one that has the > potential of breaking though into numerous other labs around the world. > > € Dr. James Patterson and his colleagues from Sarasota, Florida revealed a > stunningly simple, robust and ingenious gas-phase cold fusion reactor that > has produced excess heat for months on end. Full details will be provided > to the public in the near term; he is not seeking patent protection at this > point. > > €Helium-4 correlated with excess heat has been observed now in a solid-state > LENR device by a laboratory effort sponsored by the Italian government. > > €The astonishing nuclear transmutation experiment carried out by the Iwamura > group at Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Advanced Technology Division, which was > reported in Infinite Energy (No.47, pp.14-18) and later published in the > Japanese Journal of Applied Physics has now been reproduced by the A. > Takahashi group at Osaka University. In this experiment, deuterium (heavy > hydrogen) gas is made to flow through a palladium membrane onto which > another element, such as cesium or strontium, has been deposited. With no > energy input (other than the pressure of the gas) the deposited element > transmutes to another element. For example, cesium declines and the rare > earth element praesodymium appears and grows. Or, strontium declines and > molybdenum grows. The term ³grow² is appropriate, since to make the new > elements, it is necessary for the starting nuclei to ³absorb² four deuterium > nuclei! Obviously, this flies completely in the face of every cannon of > basic chemistry, but the evidence for the result is now overwhelming. It is > nothing short of modern alchemy. > > €Finally, we are delighted to report that a company in Israel, Energetics > Technologies Limited, which began its multi-million dollar cold fusion > effort only two years ago, has already achieved excess heat in a variety of > processes. Funded by investors in the United States, the fifteen-member > staff of Energetics Limited is aiming directly at the commercialization of > the technology. The leader of the effort Dr. Arie El-Boher made a stunning > presentation at ICCF10, which caused many jaws to drop. > > There is much more, but I need to end these highlights. Though the ³cold > fusion war² has not yet been won‹ and it could still be lost, the field > seems to have picked itself up with the remarkable turning point of ICCF10. > ICCF11 will be in Marseilles, France in October 2004. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 5 09:53:12 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA13521; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 09:50:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 09:50:40 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 11:50:38 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: A demonstration of over-unity :~) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <"o4g6A2.0.wI3.VxBM_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51746 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Joe Champion > JChampion@adamtechnology.net > http://www.adamtechnology.net I wasn't aware that Joe Champion had a PhD in anything. I'm wondering what a system to control autism has to do with over unity. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 5 10:29:27 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA05604; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 10:27:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 10:27:32 -0700 Message-ID: <3F58C764.4050105@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 13:27:00 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: A demonstration of over-unity :~) References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"p9GVI2.0.UN1.4UCM_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51747 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: >> Joe Champion >> JChampion@adamtechnology.net >> http://www.adamtechnology.net > > > I wasn't aware that Joe Champion had a PhD in anything. I'm wondering > what a system to control autism has to do with over unity. > > Did you read the "science" section? He *does* marry the two, er, somewhat. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 5 12:34:46 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA13878; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 12:32:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 12:32:45 -0700 X-Peer-Info: remote-ip 199.125.98.203 local-ip 199.125.85.40 local-name mercury.mv.net User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 14:27:23 -0700 Subject: Gene Mallove's ICCF10 paper now posted on IE site From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "vortex l eskimo.com" Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"61Fts3.0.LO3.RJEM_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51748 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All: My paper submitted to ICCF10 as a poster presentation is now posted in full at: http://www.infinite-energy.com/resources/iccf10.html LENR and "Cold Fusion" Excess Heat: Their Relation to Other Anomalous Microphysical Energy Experiments and Emerging New Energy Technologies Eugene F. Mallove, Sc.D. New Energy Foundation, Inc. P.O. Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816, USA editor@infinite-energy.com Paper presented at ICCF10, August 2003 www.infinite-energy.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 5 12:36:05 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA15170; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 12:34:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 12:34:05 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030905152643.00b03730@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 15:33:42 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: The Wall Street Journal is fluff, but we are winning anyway Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"S4_hr1.0.ki3.hKEM_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51749 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This article is fluff. It is gratuitous ignorant nonsense. Still, any publicity is good publicity, so I welcome it. But it does not matter. We don't need the WSJ anymore, and the APS and DoE can no longer hurt us. At ICCF10 during a 5-minute talk, I described the pattern of downloads at LENR-CANR.org. For months I puzzled over the strange ups and downs -- a seemingly random pattern of behavior. In June it fell from 12,000 per week to 5,000, and I fell into despondency. Then my daughter came home from college, looked at the graph and said, "That's my schedule. See? It falls off during spring vacation, during final exams, and summer vacation. It will pick up during the summer session." And so it did. Now that school has started, by golly it is picking up again. In the last few days it has returned to a weekly average of about ~7,000. In other words, our audience is students. If that is true, we have won. The future is ours. All we have to do is follow in John Dash's footsteps and teach high school kids how to replicate CF. That is my next and final goal in life. Today, grand total acrobat file downloads passed 200,000. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 5 12:47:44 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA26066; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 12:45:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 12:45:27 -0700 Message-ID: <3F58E7B4.8040103@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 15:44:52 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Wall Street Journal is fluff, but we are winning anyway References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030905152643.00b03730@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030905152643.00b03730@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"wH8BC2.0._M6.MVEM_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51750 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > If that is true, we have won. The future is ours. All we have to do is > follow in John Dash's footsteps and teach high school kids how to > replicate CF. That is my next and final goal in life. Yep, that is the "warm fuzzy" that I was speaking of in my earlier post. Do you know Ludwik Kowalski? He mentions that he spoke with you (or email). Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 5 13:04:36 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA22654; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 13:02:08 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 13:02:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 12:09:03 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: The Wall Street Journal is fluff, but we are winning anyway Resent-Message-ID: <"5mQJH2.0.uX5.ykEM_"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51751 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:33 PM 9/5/3, Jed Rothwell wrote: >All we have >to do is follow in John Dash's footsteps and teach high school kids how to >replicate CF. That is my next and final goal in life. I hope you have many more! Kowalski and Oriani seem to be on a good track, at least for student LENR demonstrations. See some of the very recent entries at bottom of the site to which Terry Blanton referred: Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 5 13:23:01 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA20798; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 13:20:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 13:20:35 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030905131946.00b2e1e0@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 13:20:49 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Subject: Re: The Wall Street Journal is fluff, but we are winning anyway In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030905152643.00b03730@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"qjkxH2.0.l45.J0FM_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51752 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Jed..your cold must have gotten better ;) >That is my next and final goal in life. Steve From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 5 13:43:16 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA32474; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 13:40:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 13:40:52 -0700 Message-ID: <3F58F4B2.7010501@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 16:40:18 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Wall Street Journal is fluff, but we are winning anyway References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"UDMN-.0.Kx7.KJFM_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51753 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: >At 3:33 PM 9/5/3, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > >>All we have >>to do is follow in John Dash's footsteps and teach high school kids how to >>replicate CF. That is my next and final goal in life. >> >> > > >I hope you have many more! > > >Kowalski and Oriani seem to be on a good track, at least for student LENR >demonstrations. See some of the very recent entries at bottom of the site >to which Terry Blanton referred: > > > Yes, all it will take is a small snowball like: http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/106ramsey.html "But what prevents (Nobel Laureat Norman) Ramsey, who is a chemist, from publicly requesting a new evaluation of the cold fusion claims? His appeal, for example, in a letter to the editor of Physics Today, could not be ignored. I think that it would lead to a new national study of cold fusion." to create a juggernaut forcing the truth to surface. The result is well described in Pink Floyd's Album "Animals", song "Sheep": "The Lord (Robert Parks) is my shepherd, I shall not want He makes me down to lie Through pastures green he leadeth me the silent waters by With bright knives he releaseth my soul He maketh me to hang on hooks in high places He converteth me to lamb cutlets For lo,m he hath great power and great hunger When cometh the day we lowly ones Through quiet reflection and great dedication Master the art of karate Lo, we shall rise up And then we'll make the bugger's eyes water." For as the great Tinsley always said, "The truth will out." And Jed cannot lie down at that point. He must seek new goals when that time comes. Jed, have you ever looked into all these UFOs buzzin' about? :-) Good show! Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 5 14:00:47 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA11052; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 13:59:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 13:59:04 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030905165056.00baa330@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 16:58:55 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: The Wall Street Journal is fluff, but we are winning anyway Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Pvl5J2.0.Ui2.NaFM_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51754 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > Yep, that is the "warm fuzzy" that I was speaking of in my earlier > post. Do you know Ludwik Kowalski? He mentions that he spoke with you > (or email). Yes, we gawked at the high school kid's experiments together. He gave an interesting talk in the Thursday evening session. Regarding the strategy he proposed, I think he may overemphasize the conflict and rejections from journals. I think LENR-CANR has shown that the opposition exists only in strong points -- places like the APS. We can ignore these fortresses. Go around them, circumvent them. As I said to him, our situation reminds me a little of the Russian Front in 1943. Powerful German Panzer divisions could stop any army they met, but Russia is so big, and they were stretched so thin, in some places they were a hundred kilometers apart. The Russians could march a whole army through the "lines," unnoticed. We can mobilize and march an army of enthusiastic young people right past the establishment. Indeed, if we fail to do this, cold fusion will be forgotten. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 5 15:03:30 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA18173; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:01:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:01:18 -0700 Message-ID: <3F5907E1.78D09B33@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 15:02:09 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: WHAT'S NEW Friday, 5 Sep 03] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ceLar3.0.lR4.iUGM_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51755 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, 5 Sep 03 Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 14:04:28 -0400 From: "What's New" Reply-To: opa@aps.org To: "What's New" WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 5 Sep 03 Washington, DC 1. CTBT: HOLDOUT NATIONS AGAIN URGED TO RATIFY TEST BAN. The U.S. is offering major concessions to North Korea if it will drop plans to test a nuclear bomb and is seeking a U.N. resolution to restrain Iran's nuclear arms program. Meanwhile, a Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty conference opened today in Vienna. The U.S. declined even to send a representative. A dozen nations have refuse to ratify the treaty: China, Columbia, Congo, Egypt, India, Indonesia, Iran, Israel, North Korea, Pakistan, Vietnam and the United States. Thanks to the Stockpile Stewardship Program, the U.S. has the most reliable stockpile of nuclear weapons on Earth and would seem to have the most to gain by a test ban. However, the leaked Nuclear Posture Review (WN 15 Mar 02) reveals that the U.S., like North Korea and Iran, is planning to test a new nuclear weapon. Instead of a ban on nuclear tests, the United States has pursued a costly and ineffective missile defense, as if missiles were the only nuclear delivery system. 2. POLYGRAPH ROULETTE: DOE HAS MASTERED "THE EXPECTATION GAME." A two-year study by the National Academy of Sciences, "The Polygraph and Lie Detection," showed polygraph testing to be less than worthless (WN 18 Apr 03). You might have expected at least a token decrease in testing by the Department of Energy. Instead DOE boldly reissued the old policy, which would subject about 20,000 employees to random character assassination. There was an immediate outcry from employees, and Sen. Pete Domenici (R-NM) convened an Energy Committee oversight hearing on Thursday, where DOE announced that a mere 4,500 employees with top-secret clearance or positions in intelligence will now be subject to having their careers trashed by polygraph roulette. It was a victory for Sen. Domenici, who praised DOE for its enlightened policy. But nothing in the NAS study says the polygraph works better if you have top-secret clearance. 3. THE POWER GRID: IS IT A METAPHOR FOR THE MODERN WORLD? The lights over most of the northeastern United States and parts of Canada began to flicker at 4:11 pm on Thursday, August 14. It was the most extensive electrical blackout in history, yet no one seems to understand how it happened. At least five electric power organizations that share a common grid are pointing fingers at one another. The purpose of the grid is clear: because electric power cannot be stored, power companies must generate the exact amount of power that is being used, literally responding to every electrical switch that is thrown. Linking power companies in a vast grid relies on better statistics to smooth demand, thus reducing local blackouts. But the grid has grown so complex no one understands it. That makes it perfect for congressional hearings. This week Energy Secretary Abraham and two governors testified before the House Energy Committee, chaired by "Billy" Tauzin (R-LA), without clearing anything up; more hearings today. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY. Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the University or the American Physical Society, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN You are currently subscribed to whatsnew as: To unsubscribe, send a blank e-mail to: To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 5 15:09:35 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA23185; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:07:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:07:19 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030905175102.00b035e8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 18:07:14 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Oriani and Fisher Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"-Vzj93.0.Ag5.MaGM_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51756 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gene's paper includes this handy description of Oriani and Fisher: "One of the most paradigm-busting sets of papers to be presented at ICCF10 is by Drs. R.A. Oriani and J.C. Fisher. Using CR-39 particle track detectors immersed in Li2SO4 dissolved in heavy or light water, and using Ni and Pd cathodes, they conclude: There is a causal relationship between electrolysis and energetic charged particles and that neither Pd nor D2O is essential for the generation of a nuclear reaction.In John Fisher's separate theoretical paper concerning this experiment he reports, A theoretical basis is offered for the remarkable observation by Oriani and Fisher of a shower of about 250,000 energetic charged particles that occurred in the vapor of oxygen and hydrogen evolved from electrolysis. The shower was localized in space and time, originating a few millimeters above the surface of a plastic detector chip and lasting for a few seconds. The responsible nuclear reactions must have been sustained by the vapor. Fisher's polyneutron theory, which suggests that polyneutrons are omnipresent, has this implication, Fisher says: The theory suggests that a single polyneutron can ignite a chain reaction that is sustained by 18O as fuel. . . ." I wrote about this very briefly here, in a cryptic manner: "Oriani, detection of charged particles with CR-39 particle track detectors. These are remarkable results. The experiment works every time. Oriani uses wonderful, old-fashioned first-principle techniques and foolproof tools. However, I disagree with his conclusion that the particles originated in gas. I think they may have come from a tiny bit of metal torn off the cathode and lifted into the gas stream. He will stuff some cotton wool into the cell to test this hypothesis." To give credit where it is due, Ed Storms suggested the particle of metal hypothesis, and I suggested cotton wool (or perhaps a more sophisticated filter), and Oriani agreed to try it. Storms and Oriani discussed this, and Oriani suggested some reasons to doubt that the particles came from solid matter. I think his main objection was that the source appears to be about 1 mm square, based on angles of the impact holes. It is hard to imagine a 1 mm solid flake of metal being wafted up in the effluent gas. For that matter, it is even harder to imagine a reaction in gas that moves like a point source for a few seconds, turns a corner, yet keeps itself confined to a 1 mm space. There may have been some other objections, but I did not hear the rest of the conversation. Anyway, conventional CF researchers will not immediately embrace the polyneutron theory or accept that the burst of charged particles originates in vapor. It is too early to conclude that "the responsible nuclear reactions *must* have been sustained by the vapor." No one doubts that Oriani is a superb experimentalist, and I think most agree his evidence for particle busts is persuasive, but that does not mean we automatically accept all of his conclusions. It would be remarkable if CF reactions occur in vapor. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 5 15:11:12 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA24437; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:09:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:09:06 -0700 Message-ID: <3F59095F.50905@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 18:08:31 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Wall Street Journal is fluff, but we are winning anyway References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030905165056.00baa330@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030905165056.00baa330@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"H0pcr.0.fz5.0cGM_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51757 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > As I said to him, our situation reminds me a little of the Russian > Front in 1943. Powerful German Panzer divisions could stop any army > they met, but Russia is so big, and they were stretched so thin, in > some places they were a hundred kilometers apart. The Russians could > march a whole army through the "lines," unnoticed. We can mobilize and > march an army of enthusiastic young people right past the > establishment. Indeed, if we fail to do this, cold fusion will be > forgotten. Not unlike my Pink Floyd analysis. :-) What impressed me most about the man is that he was obviously a skeptic at one time and has turned around. There is hope for academia! I'll never forget that day in the early nineties when a (self described) "old man with rheumy eyes" countered my cyber comment about the death of CF with a simple "Are you sure?" and directed me to the Vortex list. Here's the WSJ article retyped. Due to copyright restrictions, this is present for vortex list use only and is not to be redistributed. Any typos are mine. <><><><><><><><><><> Cold Fusion Isn't Dead, It's Just Withering from Scientific Neglect by Sharon Begley "Well, were here, " said physicist Peter Hagelstein to the 150 scientists at the 10th International Conference on Cold Fusion in Cambridge, Mass., last week. "Many people in the scientific community feel we should be shot." That, actually would be a big step up for the beleaguered community of cold fusioneers. It has been 14 years since two little-known electrochemists announced, at the infamous news conference on March 23, 1989, what sounded like the biggest physics breakthrough since Enrico Fermi produced a nuclear chain reaction on a squash court in Chicago. Using a tabletop setup, Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann, of the University of Utah, said they had induced deuterium nuclei to fuse inside metal electrodes, producing measurable quantities of heat. (Deuterium, aka heavy hydrogen, has one proton and one neutron in its nucleus.) Although nuclear fusion is supposed to be impossible at temperatures much below those in the sun or a hydrogen bomb, the Utah duo said they had managed the feat at room temperature. That was the opening bell for one of the craziest periods in science. Cold fusion, if real, promised to solve the world's energy problems forever. (There is enough deuterium in sea water to provide electricity for millennia). Scientists around the world dropped what they were doing to try to replicate the astounding claim. Some did, most didn't. When a US Department of Energy investigation concluded in November 1989 that cold fusion was a mirage born of bungled measurements and wishful thinking, the field become a pariah. Yet the cold fusioneers persist. In paper after paper last week, scientists reported that when a metal, usually palladium, absorbs huge amounts of deuterium into its atomic lattice, the result is more heat than plain old electrochemistry can explain, as well as particles thought to be by-products of nuclear fusion. Some of the most extensive work has been at the Naval REsearch Laboratory, whose scientists found both excess heat and a telltale sign of fusion, particles of helium-4, in dozens of experiments. And Michael McKubre of SRI International, Menlo Park, Calif., is still, after hundreds of thousands of experiment-hours and $4 million, getting more heat from his cold-fusion cells than can be explained conventionally. Some of the most intriguing research is by physicist Steven Jones of Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah. Several years before Prof. Pons and Prof. Fleischmann, he reported low-temperature nuclear fusion, but virtually no excess heat. That made his cold fusion a big fizzle as an energy source, but much more acceptable to science. ":The question I get more than any other is 'Are you still doing this?," says Prof. Jones. "The answer is yes, and what we are seeing is very difficult to explain outside of cold fusion. The repeatability of these experiments now approaches 80%." Although he still detects no excess heat, the telltale signs of nuclear fusion "make us conclude that we are seeing new physics." Although the persistence of the cold fusioneers makes skeptics shake their heads, proponents see it differently. "If there were no effects and it were just experimental error," says Prof. Hagelstein, associate professor of electrical engineering and computer science at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, "we should have figured out that by now I don't think there is any doubt about the existence of nuclear anomalies. Excess heat might be real, too." Right about here, I would cite physicists explaining why Prof. Hagelstein is wrong. But I can't. Almost no scientist outside the ostracized community listens to its claims anymore, much less critiques them.. It has been years since a major physics journal published a paper on cold fusion. Prof. Hagelstein invited Some of the original critics to last week's meeting; none showed. Cold fusion today is a prime example of pathological science, but not because its adherents are delusional. Yes, it's disconcerting that many of the experiments inexplicably and unpredictably stop (and start) producing heat. But the real pathology is the breakdown of the normal channels of scientific communication, with no scientists outside the tight-knit cold-fusion tribe bothering to scrutinize its claims. "If you 'know' that cold fusion is impossible, then you don't have to pay attention to these results," says Prof. Hagelstein, an award-winning DOE physicist before being ostracized for his work in the theory of cold fusion. "The initial criticism was that people needed to do the [heat measurements] right, but now that some groups have spent millions of dollars doing just that, the critics still won't read the papers." I, for one, would love to hear smart physicists explain why the excess heat from the deuterium-filled palladium reflects not nuclear fusion bu t the release of mechanical energy - sort of like letting go of a stretched spring. I'd love to see a smart critique of a 2002 paper by Japanese scientists, published in a Japanese physics journal that few American scientists see, describing (shades of medieval alchemists) the transmutation of elements through cold fusion. What these claims need is critical scrutiny by skeptics. That's how science normally functions. But in cold fusion, it isn't. And that's the worst pathology of all. (You can e-mail Sharon at sciencejournal@wsj.com) Hey! How come she didn't mention lenr-canr.org???!? Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 5 15:32:58 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA04809; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:30:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:30:50 -0700 Message-ID: <3F590E79.4070708@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 18:30:17 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sciencejournal@wsj.com Subject: ICCF10 Article Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"dbY1N2.0.-A1.QwGM_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51758 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Ms. Begley: I much enjoyed reading your Science Journal article on Scientific Neglect of the Cold Fusion pheonomena. Regarding your statements: "I, for one, would love to hear smart physicists explain why the excess heat from the deuterium-filled palladium reflects not nuclear fusion but the release of mechanical energy - sort of like letting go of a stretched spring. I'd love to see a smart critique of a 2002 paper by Japanese scientists, published in a Japanese physics journal that few American scientists see, describing (shades of medieval alchemists) the transmutation of elements through cold fusion. What these claims need is critical scrutiny by skeptics. That's how science normally functions. But in cold fusion, it isn't. And that's the worst pathology of all." skeptics sometimes claim a lack of access to said papers. However, many of these documents may be read online at: http://lenr-canr.org Hopefully, the owner, Jed Rothwell, will have the papers presented at ICCF10 on the web page soon. Thanks for your erudite article and your open mind. Terry Blanton, BSEE, PE From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 5 15:37:48 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA08751; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:36:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:36:22 -0700 Message-ID: <3F591018.E9EDE76D@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 15:37:12 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Wall Street Journal is fluff, but we are winning anyway References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030905152643.00b03730@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"yeb1d.0.W82.b_GM_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51759 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: September 05, 2003 Vortex, Well Jed's final goal in life and prof. Dash's efforts seems to underscore what Max Karl Ernst Ludwig Planck (I think that was him) observed many years ago about seeming radical new ideas (even based on good data) being accepted in the science community (it takes a new generation). -ak- Jed Rothwell wrote: > This article is fluff. It is gratuitous ignorant nonsense. Still, any > publicity is good publicity, so I welcome it. > > But it does not matter. We don't need the WSJ anymore, and the APS and DoE > can no longer hurt us. > > At ICCF10 during a 5-minute talk, I described the pattern of downloads at > LENR-CANR.org. For months I puzzled over the strange ups and downs -- a > seemingly random pattern of behavior. In June it fell from 12,000 per week > to 5,000, and I fell into despondency. Then my daughter came home from > college, looked at the graph and said, "That's my schedule. See? It falls > off during spring vacation, during final exams, and summer vacation. It > will pick up during the summer session." And so it did. Now that school has > started, by golly it is picking up again. In the last few days it has > returned to a weekly average of about ~7,000. In other words, our audience > is students. If that is true, we have won. The future is ours. All we have > to do is follow in John Dash's footsteps and teach high school kids how to > replicate CF. That is my next and final goal in life. > > Today, grand total acrobat file downloads passed 200,000. > > - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 5 16:36:05 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA09644; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 16:34:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 16:34:12 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:41:22 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Oriani and Fisher Resent-Message-ID: <"fw8OJ1.0.cM2.qrHM_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51760 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:07 PM 9/5/3, Jed Rothwell wrote: [snip] >In John Fisher's >separate theoretical paper concerning this experiment he reports, A >theoretical basis is offered for the remarkable observation by Oriani and >Fisher of a shower of about 250,000 energetic charged particles that >occurred in the vapor of oxygen and hydrogen evolved from >electrolysis. The shower was localized in space and time, originating a >few millimeters above the surface of a plastic detector chip and lasting >for a few seconds. [snip] Sounds like more CR-39 and other type detectors are needed outside the cell to eliminate the possibility of cosmic ray cascades. How, using CR-39 detectors, can they determine the shower was localized in time? If the short duration is known due to a burst detected by external detectors then that may well indicate there was in fact a high energy cosmic ray burst. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 5 16:54:48 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA20717; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 16:53:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 16:53:12 -0700 X-Peer-Info: remote-ip 199.125.98.218 local-ip 199.125.85.40 local-name mercury.mv.net User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 19:51:50 -0700 Subject: Re: Oriani and Fisher From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "vortex l eskimo.com" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030905175102.00b035e8@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA20692 Resent-Message-ID: <"sedrs1.0.a35.e7IM_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51761 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 9/5/03 3:07 PM, "Jed Rothwell" wrote: > To give credit where it is due, Ed Storms suggested the particle of metal > hypothesis, and I suggested cotton wool (or perhaps a more sophisticated > filter), and Oriani agreed to try it. Storms and Oriani discussed this, and > Oriani suggested some reasons to doubt that the particles came from solid > matter. I think his main objection was that the source appears to be about > 1 mm square, based on angles of the impact holes. It is hard to imagine a 1 > mm solid flake of metal being wafted up in the effluent gas. It would be essentially impossible, unless I misunderstand the geometry of the Oriani-Fisher experiment. The metal disk that Oriani arranged to block any possible radiation from below this baffle precludes this. Yes, there is a deliberate gas passage around the disk from a very narrow annulus, but there is no obvious source for any metallic flakes to come up from below, Further, if a flake were the source of the radiation-scoring of the CR39 track detectors, one might imagine that such gross, dramatic effects would have been seen earlier from other electrolytic systems in which track detectors were placed. (There have been charged particle tracks seen, but not of this extraordinary kind.) > For that > matter, it is even harder to imagine a reaction in gas that moves like a > point source for a few seconds, turns a corner, yet keeps itself confined > to a 1 mm space. The polyneutron chain reaction discussed by Fisher in his theory paper would be an ideal model for what is observed. The polyneutron theory may have other supporting evidence from experiments not normally associated with CF/LENR. This theory grates on the mainstream cold fusion theorists, but they had better pay attention to it. It is a very interesting and useful hypothesis. The most remarkable thing about the Oriani experiment is that it was designed to experimentally test a *prediction* of the polyneutron theory -- and it worked! That is always a plus in science. I spoke with Oriani after ICCF10 and he told me that tracks are observed in about 70% of the experiments, but in only 6 out of 100 tests have there been such fantastic radiation "explosions" that appeared to emanate from localized sources in the gas phase. >There may have been some other objections, but I did not > hear the rest of the conversation. > > Anyway, conventional CF researchers will not immediately embrace the > polyneutron theory or accept that the burst of charged particles originates > in vapor. It is too early to conclude that "the responsible nuclear > reactions *must* have been sustained by the vapor." It is the most likely first-cut explanation -- inasmuch as all other lattice-based cold fusion theories (the vast majority of cold fusion theorizing) have been thrown into doubt, in my view, by the increasing evidence for biological transmutations and by other evidence enumerated in my paper. > No one doubts that > Oriani is a superb experimentalist, and I think most agree his evidence for > particle busts is persuasive, but that does not mean we automatically > accept all of his conclusions. The inertia of the mainstream cold fusion community is well known. It has taken Talbot Chubb, as an example, far too many years to begin to accept transmutations -- and now he thinks they're just dandy --even though he admits his lattice based theory for them is a stretch. And McKubre, in his closing remarks, continued to express amazement about light water excess heat reactions... Mind-boggling. > It would be remarkable if CF reactions occur in vapor. It would not be any more remarkable than the now fairly well established excess energy from water-based "cold fog" explosions from Graneau et al. Or the excess energy in plasma discharges found in many other types of experiments. In any event, as the forthcoming IE#51 will show, the crème-de-la crème of cold fusion researchers (unfortunately not to be publicly identified per their request -- use your imagination!) have verified even more astonishing energetic effects in gas phase systems. > > - J - Dr. Eugene F. Mallove New Energy Foundation, Inc. Infinite Energy Magazine P.O. Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 Ph: 603-485-4700 Fx: 603-485-4710 www.infinite-energy.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 5 20:07:21 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA23987; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 20:05:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 20:05:39 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <1ef.f5baa0c.2c8aa8d8@aol.com> Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 23:04:56 EDT Subject: The elastic limit of space is the key To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_1ef.f5baa0c.2c8aa8d8_boundary" X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10690 Resent-Message-ID: <"UWEJl2.0.es5.2yKM_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51762 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_1ef.f5baa0c.2c8aa8d8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have expanded my ideas to include the strong nuclear force. I was able to calculate the spin of a nucleon from the same fundamental premise that I calculated the megahertz meter relationship from. I have also said for a long time that a proton conductor containing 50nm particles stimulated thermally is what it needed. Laser stimulation is proving to work. Superwaves are said to work. Polyneutrons are a bad idea. They have to much nuclear isospin to hold together. What I have done is look at the path of the Quantum transition. Ref link below to review the nuclear calculations. Chapter 10 My latest experiment today produced no anomalous energy. I have also completed a nice home page featuring my home town. I am happy to see progress. Is it time to send Bill B his $10? http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ParksJohnstown/index.html Frank Znidarsic --part1_1ef.f5baa0c.2c8aa8d8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have expanded my ideas to include the strong nuclear= force.  I was able to calculate the spin of a nucleon from the same fu= ndamental premise that I calculated the megahertz meter relationship from.&n= bsp; I have also said for a long time that a proton conductor containing 50n= m particles stimulated thermally is what it needed.  Laser stimulation=20= is proving to work.  Superwaves are said to work.  Polyneutrons ar= e a bad idea.  They have to much nuclear isospin to hold together. = ;   What I have done is look at the path of the Quantum transition= .  Ref link below to review the nuclear calculations.


Chapter 10

My latest experiment today produced no anomalous energy.  I have also c= ompleted a nice home page featuring my home town.  I am happy to see pr= ogress.  Is it time to send Bill B his $10?

http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ParksJohnstown/index.html

Frank Znidarsic --part1_1ef.f5baa0c.2c8aa8d8_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 6 04:52:00 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id EAA04748; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 04:50:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 04:50:40 -0700 Message-ID: <000601c3746d$20473260$ea201f41@woh.rr.com> From: "Nicholas Reiter" To: "vortex-L" Subject: Fungi, LENR, and that funky white powder Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 07:50:53 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Resent-Message-ID: <"3jfUc2.0.4A1.FeSM_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51763 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gentlemen, For some of us, research and questing after new science follows a river path with many branches. Failure to come up with a good model for one phenomenon will lead us right onto a new track. So it goes. Following the activities reported in the fifth installment of the fungal alteration of radiation project: http://www.geocities.com/spfaile/Fifthreport.htm Sam Faile and I have been hard pressed to come up with an explanation for the vanishing traces of Re and platinum group X ray spectra, and the appearance of high amounts of Al after carbonizing the fungal media. Continued scrutinizing of the germanium detector results a couple of weeks ago still shows an alteration of gamma ray energy peak ratios from Th isotopes in the fungal glop. Something was going on there. Sam was the first of us two to suggest that there might be a model or analogy with the ORME theory. At first, I had cringed a bit having traditionally associated the claims of ORME and Hudson's white powder metals with sloppy spectroscopy and the far end of New Age product marketing. But Jeez. If there was something to it, maybe what we caught by EDS and gamma ray spectroscopy was a hint of the mechanism. So here is a general query for all good vortexians. Can anyone direct me to any decent analytical work done on ORME samples, or any proof of existence? I am willing to set aside my red flags, if I could see even just some decent theoretical validation, let alone empirical evidence. Have any vortex dwellers experimented with claimed methods for making ORMEs? Or should I slap myself for even bringing the topic up. I find now that even at my new job, I am flirting far more with LENR than I ever suspected I would. This has primarily been due to my assignment onto the electrolysis project. Been trying to get most of the other 7 engineers and scientists in the place familiarized with the LENR - CANR site. So hey, Jed, some of the hits are coming from my end... Best regards, NR From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 6 10:37:40 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA16602; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 10:35:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 10:35:55 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 09:43:00 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Fungi, LENR, and that funky white powder Resent-Message-ID: <"XSBy11.0.G34.whXM_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51764 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:50 AM 9/6/3, Nicholas Reiter wrote: [snip] >Following the activities reported in the fifth installment of the fungal >alteration of radiation project: >http://www.geocities.com/spfaile/Fifthreport.htm [snip] This is fascinating work and beautifully reported. I do have a suggestion though (of course!). It appears that you need to increase the total counts you are taking in each reading and include error bars. This can be done by a number of obvious methods, including longer geiger counter count times, higher doses of radiation, closer locating of the counter, etc. It is also useful to take at least 6 samples (e.g. 1 minute samples like you are taking) but then average them and compute standard deviation "sigma". The nice thing about counting is that you know what sigma should be by the total count itself! If the count is N then sigma is simply N^(1/2). Since the count is a random walk, the *expected* deviation is about 0.6 sigma, but you don't know to which side of the mean that deviation is expected to occur for any given sample. In the runs where you show counts of around 30, the sigma should be about 5.4. The variation in your count data appears in various cases to be well under 3 sigma, and in fact typically under 1 sigma. This means that any trends that appear by drawing lines between data points over time are highly suspect. Since you recorded the max and min values (but not all values I take it) it might be of interest to plot avg=(max+min)/2 versus error bars consisting of sigma = +-avg^(1/2). The true average data would be much more meaningful than the max or min data I think, but it sounds like that is not available. The spectral data is far more credible I think in proving an anomaly in that the energy level is well defined for even a single count. It looks like you are on to something, but your work really needs error bars and reduced sigmas to avoid serious skepticism. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 6 10:48:00 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA22488; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 10:46:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 10:46:00 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 09:53:07 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Worm problems, and a fix Resent-Message-ID: <"DJv-v.0.FV5.NrXM_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51765 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A I don't know about other vorts but I am getting what appears to be about 200 worm infected emails per day now. I assume it is mainly due to posting on vortex that I get so many, since I rarely post anywhere else. Any one else getting this kind of activity? This worm problem could easily be addressed by software vendors by providing API's in the mail servers that use text string specification files to specify combinations of text strings specified by location (in title, attachment names, in the bulk email, or in the attachments) to be used for deletion of emails (or attachments) either outgoing or incoming to the email server. String specifications can then be updated periodically as new worms are identified. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 6 11:21:29 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA08402; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 11:19:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 11:19:16 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Worm problems, and a fix Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 14:40:36 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"_Mwzb1.0.z22.YKYM_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51767 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Horace. In a word, no. I get email from Sara-Freder.com just about once for each posting to the list, I delete them immediately so I can't tell you what's in them. Maybe Bill can cut the feed to the account which generates these... Otherwise, nothing. I'm getting more of this sort of activity on my biz accounts, including the ubiquituous Nigerian scam. The last one actually used lower case letters (as everyone knows, you are charged more for sending emails with the expensive lower case characters) and claimed to be from Charles Taylors relatives in Liberia. Is an email from Dick Cheney far behind???? K. -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner@mtaonline.net] Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 1:53 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Worm problems, and a fix I don't know about other vorts but I am getting what appears to be about 200 worm infected emails per day now. I assume it is mainly due to posting on vortex that I get so many, since I rarely post anywhere else. Any one else getting this kind of activity? This worm problem could easily be addressed by software vendors by providing API's in the mail servers that use text string specification files to specify combinations of text strings specified by location (in title, attachment names, in the bulk email, or in the attachments) to be used for deletion of emails (or attachments) either outgoing or incoming to the email server. String specifications can then be updated periodically as new worms are identified. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 6 11:21:48 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA08286; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 11:19:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 11:19:07 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Fungi, LENR, and that funky white powder Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 14:40:37 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <000601c3746d$20473260$ea201f41@woh.rr.com> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"JsBa62.0.E12.PKYM_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51766 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Nick. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, check the Espacenet patent database for Dave's patent applications. He published worldwide, which is nice 'cause I don't think his US application was granted and the online application records don't go back that far. Anyway, I've posted the GB publication to my website, click on the link below. Beware, it's a 50 page document. http://www.kpnconsulting.com/vortex/GB2219995.pdf There are some interesting talks by Hudson elsewhere, try google. His early work was quite interesting, if you can overlook the religious hallucinations and general egomania. Certainly his basic premise that clusters of atoms should be treated as separate entities from the bulk element is reasonable and worth considering. K. -----Original Message----- From: Nicholas Reiter [mailto:nreiter@woh.rr.com] Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 7:51 AM To: vortex-L Subject: Fungi, LENR, and that funky white powder Gentlemen, For some of us, research and questing after new science follows a river path with many branches. Failure to come up with a good model for one phenomenon will lead us right onto a new track. So it goes. Following the activities reported in the fifth installment of the fungal alteration of radiation project: http://www.geocities.com/spfaile/Fifthreport.htm Sam Faile and I have been hard pressed to come up with an explanation for the vanishing traces of Re and platinum group X ray spectra, and the appearance of high amounts of Al after carbonizing the fungal media. Continued scrutinizing of the germanium detector results a couple of weeks ago still shows an alteration of gamma ray energy peak ratios from Th isotopes in the fungal glop. Something was going on there. Sam was the first of us two to suggest that there might be a model or analogy with the ORME theory. At first, I had cringed a bit having traditionally associated the claims of ORME and Hudson's white powder metals with sloppy spectroscopy and the far end of New Age product marketing. But Jeez. If there was something to it, maybe what we caught by EDS and gamma ray spectroscopy was a hint of the mechanism. So here is a general query for all good vortexians. Can anyone direct me to any decent analytical work done on ORME samples, or any proof of existence? I am willing to set aside my red flags, if I could see even just some decent theoretical validation, let alone empirical evidence. Have any vortex dwellers experimented with claimed methods for making ORMEs? Or should I slap myself for even bringing the topic up. I find now that even at my new job, I am flirting far more with LENR than I ever suspected I would. This has primarily been due to my assignment onto the electrolysis project. Been trying to get most of the other 7 engineers and scientists in the place familiarized with the LENR - CANR site. So hey, Jed, some of the hits are coming from my end... Best regards, NR From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 6 11:46:12 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA23671; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 11:43:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 11:43:47 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 10:50:56 -0800 To: , From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Worm problems, and a fix Resent-Message-ID: <"e-HmG2.0.hn5.YhYM_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51768 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 2:40 PM 9/6/3, Keith Nagel wrote: >Hi Horace. > >In a word, no. > >I get email from Sara-Freder.com just about once >for each posting to the list, I delete them immediately >so I can't tell you what's in them. Maybe Bill can >cut the feed to the account which generates these... So you are not getting lots of spam email, especially those with .pif attachments? BTW, I was talking about the fact that spammers pick up email addresses from lists like vortex, not that the worms are acutally coming through vortex, which of course they aren't. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 6 12:29:41 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA15922; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 12:28:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 12:28:01 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 11:35:02 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Fungi, LENR, and that funky white powder Resent-Message-ID: <"ekuI72.0.Ju3.-KZM_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51769 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: "Since the count is a random walk, the *expected* deviation is about 0.6 sigma, but you don't know to which side of the mean that deviation is expected to occur for any given sample." That should have said: "Since the count is a random walk, the *expected* deviation is about 0.8 sigma, but you don't know to which side of the mean that deviation is expected to occur for any given sample" Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 6 13:02:11 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA01692; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 13:00:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 13:00:11 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 12:07:09 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Fungi, LENR, and that funky white powder Resent-Message-ID: <"DUycF2.0.CQ.9pZM_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51770 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Seems like most days I can't get anything right the first few passes! There is a nice discussion of counting issues in "Proceedures in Experimental Physics" by John Strong. Following is a brief summary. The mean error "epsilon" in an observed count of N is N^(1/2). The probable error is 0.67 epsilon. In order to have a probable error of less than 1 percent over 4300 particles must be counted. Background counts complicate the issue and substantially increase the number of counts required to achieve a desired mean error. If you have a background count mean error of epsilon_b, then the error of the sum or difference of background and live counts is: epsilon_net = (epsilon_b + epsilon)^(1/2) If you have a background count of N_b and live count of N then the relative probable error becomes: epsilon = (0.67 (N + N_n)^(1/2) )/ (N - N_b) If the source to be measured is twice background then it is necessary to count about 27,000 counts to achieve a probable error of 1 percent on the computed rate for the live count. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 6 13:05:10 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA03719; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 13:02:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 13:02:58 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 12:09:58 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Fungi, LENR, and that funky white powder Resent-Message-ID: <"4ZUus3.0.kv.lrZM_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51771 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Seems like most days I can't get anything right the first few passes! There is a nice discussion of counting issues in "Proceedures in Experimental Physics" by John Strong. Following is a brief summary. The mean error "epsilon" in an observed count of N is N^(1/2). The probable error is 0.67 epsilon. In order to have a probable error of less than 1 percent over 4300 particles must be counted. Background counts complicate the issue and substantially increase the number of counts required to achieve a desired mean error. If you have a background count mean error of epsilon_b, then the error of the sum or difference of background and live counts is: epsilon_net = (epsilon_b + epsilon)^(1/2) If you have a background count of N_b and live count of N then the relative probable error becomes: epsilon = (0.67 (N + N_b)^(1/2) )/ (N - N_b) If the source to be measured is twice background then it is necessary to count about 27,000 counts to achieve a probable error of 1 percent on the computed rate for the live count. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 6 13:12:43 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA08508; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 13:10:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 13:10:17 -0700 Message-ID: <3F5A37E2.5040909@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 15:39:14 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Worm problems, and a fix References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"1FfDS.0.a42.dyZM_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51772 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: >So you are not getting lots of spam email, especially those with .pif >attachments? > Of 5,000 emails in my trash folder, 4000 of them are unread. Many have attachments. Now, many of these were dumped by my Mozilla manual filter (manual, in that I set filter criteria.) About 1/3 I dump by hand because they get past all filters. If I don't know ye, I won't read thy email. Here's what is interesting. In addition to the above, my ISP has a spam filter which doesn't even let most spam get to my mailbox. For grins, I set it for "review" last week, a setting which lets me review the alleged spam at the ISP web page. Over a three day period, I averaged one spam email every THREE MINUTES! And I reviewed them and they were all spam. Something must be done. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 6 16:30:11 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA31268; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 16:27:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 16:27:25 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 15:34:32 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Method for early worm identification by ISP's Resent-Message-ID: <"qZftD.0.Ue7.SrcM_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51773 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Internet Service Provider's (ISP's) have the first opportunity for worm identification, finding key stings in a new worm which can later be used by virus and worm removal software for identification and removal of the offenders. The purpose here is to suggest a specific early worm identification method (EWIM) which involves both automated and (unfortunately) some manual procedures. The suggested identification software can be located in email servers, buy also possibly routers. The identification of high frequency stings of data is a procedure used in various data compression algorithms. The basis of this EWIM is to identify suddenly commonplace strings (SCS's). SCS's are strings that have not been identified as commonplace before, that suddenly have a high frequency. Additionally, the method is intended to identify multiple SCS's having a high joint frequency, i.e new clusters. That is to say a group of stings having both a suddenly high frequency and which also have a high frequency of occurrence in the same message, i.e. a clustering. The SCS cluster identification algorithm consists of six general steps: 1. Removal of known spam resulting in residual email 2. Elimination of normally common strings 3. Identification of high frequency strings in residual email 4. Building of SCS coincidence matrix. 5. Periodically building a potential worm identifier list and resetting 6. Building a sample set of emails having the 10 most common newly identified string clusters. Step 1, the removal of known spam and identified worms can be done using a filter which recognizes a concurrence of strings, a cluster or clusters that identify an email as known common benign spam. Routines for fast recognition of concurrent strings in a given data string are readily available to those skilled in the art of programming. The string combination specifiers for this step could fairly quickly be built manually initially. The email that passes this first step is called residual email. Step 2, the elimination of known high frequency strings, is accomplished using a dictionary of commonplace strings. All common HTML strings would be eliminated by this step, for example. This dictionary can initially be built by simply accumulating the highest frequency stings observed in email servers around the world, or just at a given installation and server. In this step high frequency strings that are threatening can be preserved by checking a dictionary of such strings prior to discarding the string in question. Step 3, the identification of high frequency strings in the residual email, can be done over a periodic time interval by building a dictionary of strings encountered in the residual email and their frequencies. When the space in the high frequency string dictionary being built is full, the low frequency half of the dictionary can be purged. This process could easily build a dictionary of the most common 10,000 strings in the residual email. The process of identifying high frequency strings in given input strings is used commonly in data compression algorithms. It is computationally intensive, and compute time depends on the maximum possible length of strings identified. The computational time and memory requirements for this step may indicate a need for an essentially one way link from the mail server machine to a machine dedicated to this process. Step 4 consists of the building of the SCS coincidence matrix by assigning each string in the dictionary created in step 3 a unique number, an identifier. This identifier is then used to subscript into a two dimensional incidence matrix that keeps track of the count of occurrences of string j given that string i is in a residual email. A string list of 10,000 strings results in an incidence matrix of about 1.6 Gig. As high frequency pairs are identified, these can be placed in a special "string of strings" dictionary and each entry there also identified by a unique identifier, an identifier not used by any other string or string of strings. When the string of strings dictionary is not empty Step 3 must also find any relevant identifiers from the string of strings dictionary as well. Step 5 consists of, after some time interval, say 1 to 6 hours, selecting the 10 (or so) most common clusters and from them building a "worm identifier" consisting of text commands with data that can be used by a program or person to specify a set of strings comprising a worm identifying cluster. Step 6 consists of collecting samples of emails having the identified clusters for manual perusal. If the new clusters are determined to be infectious, then the worm identifier command can be posted to a website for distribution. This method could be applied within routers, but the technique would be somewhat limited in scope because a given router may see only parts of a given email. However, since only a few routes pass much of the email in the USA, it may be possible to obtain sufficient email samples from the routers to apply the process, which is in fact merely a sampling process anyway. It is also noteworthy that that identifier could be further tagged or extended to include the source of the string, i.e. a given header field, the email proper, or by attachment type. This method is far from perfect or automatic, but it gives a good starting place for building an early warning system for worms. The refresh time period can be long or short depending on mail volume and the availability of personnel for reviewing or testing the culled findings. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 6 16:59:20 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA02712; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 16:57:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 16:57:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000001c374d2$aaecb6a0$ea201f41@woh.rr.com> From: "Nicholas Reiter" To: References: Subject: Re: Fungi, LENR, and that funky white powder Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 19:42:10 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Resent-Message-ID: <"50K4I1.0.Dg.kHdM_"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51774 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace, Thanks for the statistical suggestions. I agree that the old Geiger counter is only so helpful down in the range of a couple hundred CPM. What we had found early on, though was that by adding enough tracer (Th or U) to get the CPM up into the thousands, it pretty well killed the fungi or yeast. (Probably by screwing with the pH and chemistry, rather than the sheer brute gamma and alpha emission.) So it does put the onus back onto better radiation metrology. The low temp germanium detector is sweet, but the underfunded physics dept. has never had the OK to get a new software package and computer for it. It is running on Windows, sorta... like Windows 3.0! Oy veh. NR ----- Original Message ----- From: "Horace Heffner" To: Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 1:43 PM Subject: Re: Fungi, LENR, and that funky white powder > At 7:50 AM 9/6/3, Nicholas Reiter wrote: > [snip] > >Following the activities reported in the fifth installment of the fungal > >alteration of radiation project: > >http://www.geocities.com/spfaile/Fifthreport.htm > [snip] > > This is fascinating work and beautifully reported. > > I do have a suggestion though (of course!). It appears that you need to > increase the total counts you are taking in each reading and include error > bars. This can be done by a number of obvious methods, including longer > geiger counter count times, higher doses of radiation, closer locating of > the counter, etc. It is also useful to take at least 6 samples (e.g. 1 > minute samples like you are taking) but then average them and compute > standard deviation "sigma". The nice thing about counting is that you know > what sigma should be by the total count itself! If the count is N then > sigma is simply N^(1/2). Since the count is a random walk, the *expected* > deviation is about 0.6 sigma, but you don't know to which side of the mean > that deviation is expected to occur for any given sample. In the runs > where you show counts of around 30, the sigma should be about 5.4. The > variation in your count data appears in various cases to be well under 3 > sigma, and in fact typically under 1 sigma. This means that any trends > that appear by drawing lines between data points over time are highly > suspect. > > Since you recorded the max and min values (but not all values I take it) it > might be of interest to plot avg=(max+min)/2 versus error bars consisting > of sigma = +-avg^(1/2). The true average data would be much more > meaningful than the max or min data I think, but it sounds like that is not > available. > > The spectral data is far more credible I think in proving an anomaly in > that the energy level is well defined for even a single count. It looks > like you are on to something, but your work really needs error bars and > reduced sigmas to avoid serious skepticism. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 6 18:17:28 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA23110; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 18:16:05 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 18:16:05 -0700 (PDT) From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <9.1866bde0.2c8be0a1@aol.com> Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 21:15:13 EDT Subject: spam and quantum To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_9.1866bde0.2c8be0a1_boundary" X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10690 Resent-Message-ID: <"XrRTm1.0.ye5.FReM_"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51775 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --part1_9.1866bde0.2c8be0a1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I posted my e-mail address on my web page, Spam followed. Now I use a dialog box. Spammers cannot scan the dialog box. Where I have used my email I tried adding characters with a note to remove them Like Remove the X to write to me fxznidarsic@aol.com This seems to confuse the spiders. Now on to another subject Much is know about Quantum physics. No one knows the path of the quantum transition. What happens to the quantum as it traverses between stationary states? What it known is that the various of the fields interact. For example in Beta decay the strong, week, electromagnetic, and gravitational fields all strongly interact at the moment of the transition. In the language of waves, the motion constants converge. I believe that I understand the quantum transition. It takes place at a velocity that depends on the size of the quantum structure. The dimensional velocity is one megahertz-meter. The knowledge can now be applied to macroscopic quantum systems. Again the constants of the motion converge in quantum systems that are stimulated at a dimensional frequency of one megahertz-meter. With larger systems such a Bose condensates and proton conductors the dimensional frequency can be interpreted as a stimulation frequency not a velocity. fxznidarsic@aol.com remove the x to write --part1_9.1866bde0.2c8be0a1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I posted my e-mail address on my web page, Spam follow= ed.  Now I use a dialog box.  Spammers cannot scan the dialog box.=   Where I have used my email I tried adding characters with a note to r= emove them

Like Remove the X to write to me

fxznidarsic@aol.com

This seems to confuse the spiders.

Now on to another subject

Much is know about Quantum physics.  No one knows the path of the quant= um transition.  What happens to the quantum as it traverses between sta= tionary states?  What it known is that the various of the fields intera= ct.  For example in Beta decay the strong, week, electromagnetic, and g= ravitational fields all strongly interact at the moment of the transition.&n= bsp; In the language of waves, the motion constants converge.

I believe that I understand the quantum transition.  It takes place at=20= a velocity that depends on the size of the quantum structure.  The dime= nsional velocity is one megahertz-meter.  The knowledge can now be appl= ied to macroscopic quantum systems.  Again the constants of the motion=20= converge in quantum systems that are stimulated at a dimensional frequency o= f one megahertz-meter.  With larger systems such a Bose condensates and= proton conductors the dimensional frequency can be interpreted as a stimula= tion frequency not a velocity.

fxznidarsic@aol.com   remove the x to write

 --part1_9.1866bde0.2c8be0a1_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 6 19:44:36 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA18676; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 19:42:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 19:42:54 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 18:50:05 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Fungi, LENR, and that funky white powder Resent-Message-ID: <"LMgIo3.0.eZ4.jifM_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51776 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:42 PM 9/6/3, Nicholas Reiter wrote: >Horace, > >Thanks for the statistical suggestions. I agree that the old Geiger counter >is only so helpful down in the range of a couple hundred CPM. Well, 200 CPM be made to work just fine if you can afford the time to count long enough. Suppose your background count rate is 35 CPM and your overall count rate is about 200 CPM, your sample count is thus about 165 CPM. If you have a background count of N_b and live count of N then the relative probable error is: epsilon = (0.67 (N + N_b)^(1/2) )/ (N - N_b) but if probable error epsilon = 1 percent is desired we have N_b = 35 CPM * t N = 165 CPM * t and squaring epsilon: epsilon^2 = (0.01)^2 = (0.67)^2 ( 165 CPM * t + 35 CPM * t)/ ( 165 CPM * t - 35 CPM * t)^2 and solving for t we have: t = 0.4489*(165 CPM + 35 CPM)/((165 CPM + 35 CPM)*epsilon)^2 t = 53.124 min and thus you need to count about 54 minutes and (54 min)*(200 CPM) = 10,800 counts to achieve the probable error of 1 percent on the sample count rate. If the count rate is 300 CPM then the count time goes down to about 26 minutes to achieve 1 percent probable error. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 6 19:51:41 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA22855; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 19:48:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 19:48:56 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 18:56:04 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Worm problems, and a fix Resent-Message-ID: <"97b6w1.0.-a5.NofM_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51777 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I wrote: "I don't know about other vorts but I am getting what appears to be about 200 worm infected emails per day now. I assume it is mainly due to posting on vortex that I get so many, since I rarely post anywhere else. Any one else getting this kind of activity? This worm problem could easily be addressed by software vendors by providing API's in the mail servers that use text string specification files to specify combinations of text strings specified by location (in title, attachment names, in the bulk email, or in the attachments) to be used for deletion of emails (or attachments) either outgoing or incoming to the email server. String specifications can then be updated periodically as new worms are identified." - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hot diddly darn! No sooner spoken than done! I am now still getting a slew of emails but with the worm containing attachments missing! Somebody is on the ball! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 7 14:34:23 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA06216; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 14:30:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 14:30:49 -0700 Message-ID: <000201c37586$9a695e50$0300a8c0@ggrf30j> Reply-To: "Nick Palmer" From: "Nick Palmer" To: Subject: Off topic "Bugpower" Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 22:25:37 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="text/plain"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C3758E.F6234BE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"Ao4zw3.0.zW1.9EwM_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51778 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C3758E.F6234BE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From Spacedaily.com SPACE WIRE Bugpower, the energy of the future PARIS (AFP) Sep 07, 2003 Damnation... your mobile phone, on which your work and social life depend, has become a useless lump of plastic and silicon: the battery is dead. No problem. Just reach for the nearest bowl of sugar, flip open the phone, top up the battery with a wee spoonful, give it a little time -- and hey presto, you are connected to the world again. This sci-fi scenario may lie in the not-too-distant future, thanks to a pair of US-based scientists who say they have invented the world's first efficient "bacterial battery." In a Pentagon-backed project, University of Massachusetts researchers Swades Chaudhuri, an Indian, and Derek Lovley, an American, say the battery's source is an underground bacterium that gobbles up sugar and converts its energy into electricity. Their prototype device ran flawlessly without refuelling for up to 25 days and is cheap and stable. "This is a unique organism," Lovley told AFP in an interview, as he outlined an array of potential applications. The bug in question is Rhodoferax ferriducens, which was found in airless sediment deep below ground at a terrestrial site at Oyster Bay, Virginia, and identified as a promising candidate for oxidising simple sugars. The two scientists, whose work is published on Sunday in the specialist journal Nature Biotechnology, set up a small two-chambered vessel, with each side containing a graphite electrode and separated by a membrane. On one side was R. ferriducens swimming in a glucose solution, which it broke down into carbon dioxide (CO2) and electrons. The electrons were transported to the nearby electrode, called the anode, and driven around an external circuit to the other electrode, the cathode: electrical power. Microbial fuel cells are not new, but until now they have run into big problems of cost and energy efficieny. Typically, they yield efficiency of "10 percent or less," which makes them big and unwieldy relative to the power they provide, Lovley said. The best effort has had an efficiency performance of about 50 percent. But this was only achieved thanks to chemicals called mediators which sneak across the cell's membranes, pick up the free electrons and ferry them to the anode. The mediators are expensive and have to be replenished frequently, and this makes them unsuitable as a simple, long-term energy source. The prototype made by Lovley and Chaudhuri cranks out only a tiny amount of current -- enough to run a calculator or Christmas tree lights. But as a proof of concept it is remarkable. Its energy efficiency is an extraordinary 83 percent, which implies that, if engineering obstacles can be overcome and manufacturing techniques devised, it could one day be as compact as household batteries. It worked not only with glucose but also with the fruit sugar fructose, with sucrose (found in sugar cane and sugar beet) and even xylose, a sugary byproduct of wood and straw. In addition, the bacterium is rugged and stable, able to grow at temperatures ranging from four to 30 C (39.2 to 86 F), with 25 C (77 F) the optimum. All of the fuel is used up. The process does have a pollutant, in the form of CO2, which is a greenhouse gas, but the contribution to global warming would be far less than the equival emission using fossil fuel, says Lovley. "In the short term, I see the usefulness would be for charging up batteries that can be used in a cell phone, something like that," said Lovley. The technology could also be used in environments where it is difficult or costly to charge the batteries, he said, explaining that the US Department of Defense was interested in it for powering underwater microphones and sonar to spot passing ships and submarines. 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YcWOJVvW7Fm0adWuZdvW7Vu4ceXOpVvX7l28efXu5Xs3IAA7 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C3758E.F6234BE0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 7 17:15:03 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA01753; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 17:12:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 17:12:47 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <1c2.e9e3c60.2c8d2356@aol.com> Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 20:12:06 EDT Subject: Sept 11 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_1c2.e9e3c60.2c8d2356_boundary" X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10690 Resent-Message-ID: <"7WmUj2.0.JR.-byM_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51779 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --part1_1c2.e9e3c60.2c8d2356_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If your a days drive from Somerset PA be sure to visit the Filght 93 crash site. I was there. This is what I found. Somerset PA Frank Znidarsic --part1_1c2.e9e3c60.2c8d2356_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If your a days drive from Somerset PA be sure to visit= the Filght 93 crash site.
I was there.  This is what I found.

Somers= et PA


Frank Znidarsic --part1_1c2.e9e3c60.2c8d2356_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 7 21:19:53 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA00717; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 21:18:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 21:18:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 21:18:02 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Worm problems, and a fix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"nUdGj2.0.6B.zB0N_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51780 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 6 Sep 2003, Horace Heffner wrote: > I don't know about other vorts but I am getting what appears to be about > 200 worm infected emails per day now. I assume it is mainly due to posting > on vortex that I get so many, since I rarely post anywhere else. Any one > else getting this kind of activity? Filter: ^(Please see|See) the attached (file|zip file) for details.* I recently heard that one of the worms has the following in its header, so it's easy to detect (haven't tried it myself): "x-mailscanner: found to be clean" But it might kill genuine mail, if there's any genuine "x-mailscanner" software out there: I was getting several thousand worms per day, a couple of weeks after the "sobig" peak. Who knows how high the max might have been. I wouldn't have seen them except that eskimo.com overload disabled my spam filter for a few hours and I received several hundred. I kill them in unix procmail, rejecting all mail containing exe (etc.) files, or detecting the minmail/sobig typical message as below. "Sobig" worm was from January, so I was already filtering it. I don't know why it had a sudden enormous surge in Aug. Procmail filters: :0 B * ^(Please see|See) the attached (file|zip file) for details.* /dev/null :0 B * ^Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 * name=.*\.(exe|bat|scr|pif) /dev/null :0 B * ^Content-Type: application/x-msdownload; * name=.*\.(exe|bat|scr|pif) /dev/null :0 B * ^Please read attachment for details. * ^Best regards, Administrator /dev/null My spam filters also kill any message that says anything about "virus warning" or "symantec" in the subject line. Too much idiot software that trusts the (forged) FROM line and then warns me when someone somwhere receives a sobig worm. Hundreds of those messages per day, no doubt. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 8 05:17:36 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id FAA28161; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 05:09:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 05:09:22 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 04:15:37 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Worm problems, and a fix Resent-Message-ID: <"s96oc.0.pt6.n57N_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51781 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:18 PM 9/7/3, William Beaty wrote: >"Sobig" worm was from January, so >I was already filtering it. I don't know why it had a sudden enormous >surge in Aug. College networks are swamped with it due to students returning to school with worms in their computers. There was an article about this on cnn.com. Schools have a hard time getting them out of their networks due to limited staff and much less control of the computers attached than their business counterparts. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 8 07:50:39 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA03339; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 07:47:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 07:47:28 -0700 Message-ID: <3F5C965B.3090000@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 10:46:51 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: ICCF10 Article - Begley Responds Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ju-T5.0.zp.-P9N_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51782 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: You might want to keep an eye on site statistics, Jed. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: RE: ICCF10 Article Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 10:38:54 -0400 From: Begley, Sharon To: 'Terry Blanton' Thanks very much. In fact, I've been sending readers to the lenr-canr site, so we'll see if anything changes. I'm not holding my breath. Sharon Begley Science columnist The Wall Street Journal 200 Liberty Street NY NY 10281-1003 212-416-3268 -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:blantont@rtpatlanta.com] Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 6:30 PM To: sciencejournal Subject: ICCF10 Article Ms. Begley: I much enjoyed reading your Science Journal article on Scientific Neglect of the Cold Fusion pheonomena. Regarding your statements: "I, for one, would love to hear smart physicists explain why the excess heat from the deuterium-filled palladium reflects not nuclear fusion but the release of mechanical energy - sort of like letting go of a stretched spring. I'd love to see a smart critique of a 2002 paper by Japanese scientists, published in a Japanese physics journal that few American scientists see, describing (shades of medieval alchemists) the transmutation of elements through cold fusion. What these claims need is critical scrutiny by skeptics. That's how science normally functions. But in cold fusion, it isn't. And that's the worst pathology of all." skeptics sometimes claim a lack of access to said papers. However, many of these documents may be read online at: http://lenr-canr.org Hopefully, the owner, Jed Rothwell, will have the papers presented at ICCF10 on the web page soon. Thanks for your erudite article and your open mind. Terry Blanton, BSEE, PE From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 8 08:24:31 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA28995; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 08:21:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 08:21:11 -0700 Message-ID: <20030908152058.72803.qmail@web11702.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 08:20:58 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: Worm problems, and a fix To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"MfSWx2.0.n47.bv9N_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51783 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Horace Heffner wrote: > At 9:18 PM 9/7/3, William Beaty wrote: > >"Sobig" worm was from January, so > >I was already filtering it. I don't know why it > had a sudden enormous > >surge in Aug. > > > College networks are swamped with it due to students > returning to school > with worms in their computers. There was an article > about this on cnn.com. > Schools have a hard time getting them out of their > networks due to limited > staff and much less control of the computers > attached than their business > counterparts. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > also, there was a minor rewrite that was somewhat more efficent that got released about the same time. personally, i havent gotten a one. (on this account anyways, my hotmail got swamped for a while. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 8 09:05:25 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA23574; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 09:00:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 09:00:35 -0700 Message-ID: <20030908160024.72813.qmail@web11707.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 09:00:24 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: Worm problems, and a fix To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20030908152058.72803.qmail@web11702.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"eh6Jw1.0.4m5.YUAN_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51784 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: i say that, and 5 minutes later, i have 25 messages in my inbox about MY DETAILS.... when will i learn to shut my mouth? --- alexander hollins wrote: > > --- Horace Heffner wrote: > > At 9:18 PM 9/7/3, William Beaty wrote: > > >"Sobig" worm was from January, so > > >I was already filtering it. I don't know why it > > had a sudden enormous > > >surge in Aug. > > > > > > College networks are swamped with it due to > students > > returning to school > > with worms in their computers. There was an > article > > about this on cnn.com. > > Schools have a hard time getting them out of their > > networks due to limited > > staff and much less control of the computers > > attached than their business > > counterparts. > > > > Regards, > > > > Horace Heffner > > > > > > also, there was a minor rewrite that was somewhat > more > efficent that got released about the same time. > > personally, i havent gotten a one. (on this > account > anyways, my hotmail got swamped for a while. > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site > design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 8 09:24:23 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA04325; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 09:20:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 09:20:34 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030908120919.00baa570@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 12:20:08 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Upsurge at LENR-CANR.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"iASLC1.0.s21.GnAN_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51785 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > You might want to keep an eye on site statistics, Jed. > > From: Begley, Sharon > To: 'Terry Blanton' > > > > Thanks very much. In fact, I've been sending readers to the lenr-canr site, > so we'll see if anything changes. I'm not holding my breath. There has been a dramatic increase in activity at LENR-CANR in the last few days, and a big jump on Sunday. Sunday is usually quiet, but here is the pattern: Visitors Thur., 439 Fri., 521 Sat., 308 Normal for weekend Sun., 2,186 PDF Downloads Sunday: 1,692 The PDF downloads were the highest it has been on Sunday since May, but what is even more dramatic is the number of people looking at the ICCF10 Proceedings section, and the pictures of the high school kids. I hope I do not get the kids in trouble. Whether Begley has any role in this is difficult for me to say. My sense is that it is mainly caused by college students returning to classes. It seems to bear out the trend I described at ICCF-10, but it is still too early to be sure. Last week's total downloads were 7,783, a nice recovery from the summer vacation doldrums. Most were downloaded before Begley's article came out. I will beef up the content at ICCF10 right away. I wish I had more submissions. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 8 11:08:39 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA11451; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 11:03:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 11:03:37 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030908110329.02e46248@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 11:04:02 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Subject: Sharon Begley The Wall Street Journal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_327681578==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <"n6xcT.0.po2.vHCN_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51786 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_327681578==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sharon Begley The Wall Street Journal Dear Ms. Begley: Of all the comments I have heard on your article, no one has yet said, "Wow, look at this. Someone from a well established publication had the guts and consideration to attend the ICCF10 conference, inquire about some of the real findings, and push...hard I'm sure...to get her editors to run a column on such a controversial subject.". So there, I said it. While many insiders to cold fusion know so much about it and find its veracity excruciatingly obvious, many forget that the rest of the world is still "in the Dark Ages" when it comes to accurate, current information on the subject. For your non-scientific readers who may have an interest in more information on the subject, I recently interviewed Dr. Edmund Storms and asked many of the basic questions one may have on the subject. The transcript of this interview can be found at www.coldfusioninfo.com, under the "Pioneers" section. Best Regards, Steve Krivit Editor and Webmaster Los Angeles, California, USA www.coldfusioninfo.com Phone: (310) 721-5919 Fax: (310) 470-8190 --=====================_327681578==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Sharon Begley
The Wall Street Journal

Dear Ms. Begley:

Of all the comments I have heard on your article,  no one has yet said, "Wow, look at this.  Someone from a well established publication had the guts and consideration to attend the ICCF10 conference, inquire about some of the real findings, and push...hard I'm sure...to get her editors to run a column on such a controversial subject.".   So there, I said it.

While many insiders to cold fusion know so much about it and find its veracity excruciatingly obvious, many forget that the rest of the world is still "in the Dark Ages" when it comes to accurate, current information on the subject.

For your non-scientific readers who may have an interest in more information on the subject, I recently interviewed Dr. Edmund Storms and asked many of the basic questions one may have on the subject.  The transcript of this interview can be found at www.coldfusioninfo.com, under the "Pioneers" section. 

Best Regards,

Steve Krivit
Editor and Webmaster
Los Angeles, California, USA
www.coldfusioninfo.com
Phone: (310) 721-5919
Fax: (310) 470-8190 --=====================_327681578==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 8 12:24:22 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA00810; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 12:20:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 12:20:17 -0700 X-Peer-Info: remote-ip 199.125.98.215 local-ip 199.125.85.40 local-name mercury.mv.net User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 15:18:53 -0700 Subject: Re: Upsurge at LENR-CANR.org From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "vortex l eskimo.com" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030908120919.00baa570@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"gVzZY3.0.HC.mPDN_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51787 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 9/8/03 9:20 AM, "Jed Rothwell" wrote: > > There has been a dramatic increase in activity at LENR-CANR in the last few > days, and a big jump on Sunday. Sunday is usually quiet, but here is the > pattern: On Sunday night (9- 11 eastern time) for two hours I was on the on the Tom Valentine national radio program -- "Radio Free America" -- discussing ICCF10, CF/LENR, etc.. This might have had some impact for the Sunday totals. Dr. Eugene F. Mallove New Energy Foundation, Inc. Infinite Energy Magazine P.O. Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 Ph: 603-485-4700 Fx: 603-485-4710 www.infinite-energy.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 8 13:16:27 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA03857; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 13:11:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 13:11:41 -0700 Message-ID: <410-22003918201135403@mindspring.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: JedRothwell@mindspring.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2003.3.84.0 (Windows) From: "Jed Rothwell" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Upsurge at LENR-CANR.org Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 16:11:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191cab8f370b56bb0052afa8366d15a3c5e67f5eb1ca72d0638f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: <"BxcHP.0.2y.y9EN_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51788 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Eugene F. Mallove wrote: > > There has been a dramatic increase in activity at LENR-CANR in the last few > > days, and a big jump on Sunday. Sunday is usually quiet, but here is the > > pattern: > > On Sunday night (9- 11 eastern time) for two hours I was on the on the Tom > Valentine national radio program -- "Radio Free America" -- discussing > ICCF10, CF/LENR, etc.. This might have had some impact for the Sunday > totals. That was probably the cause. The WSJ would have had an impact on Friday and Saturday. Earthlink does not give me a breakdown by hour so I cannot be sure. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 8 14:23:18 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA18637; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 14:18:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 14:18:02 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030908171132.019082a8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 17:17:48 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Preview of Proceedings and sock-knocking SPAWAR slides Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"SyjF6.0.7Z4.A8FN_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51789 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: New stuff is uploaded into the ICCF10 Proceedings section at LENR-CANR.org: http://www.lenr-canr.org/iccf10/iccf10.htm New stuff includes: Knock-your-socks-off PowerPoint slides from from Szpak et al. at SPAWAR (converted into Acrobat format). PowerPoint cost $235, but it was worth it for these slides alone. I hope many more come in. A nifty photo from Dennis Letts showing lasers stimulating cathodes. It does not prove anything but it looks like Science In Action. A preview of the electronic Proceedings format. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 8 14:55:41 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA09954; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 14:51:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 14:51:25 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030908174746.00ba98c8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 17:50:51 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Message to Dave Nagel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"PHfN71.0.SR2.TdFN_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51790 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: [It just happens that David Nagel gave a talk that refuted this absurd "stored mechanical energy" nonsense. I wrote him the following note:] Did you notice the comments in the Wall Street Journal Cold Fusion article about stored mechanical energy and cracks? "I, for one, would love to hear smart physicists explain why the excess heat from the deuterium-filled palladium reflects not nuclear fusion but the release of mechanical energy - sort of like letting go of a stretched spring." What a foolish thing to say! She does not understand the concept of "orders of magnitude." Neither did Morrison. You should send that reporter your ICCF10 paper . . . ["Energetics Of Defects And Isotropic Strain In Palladium"] If I write to her, I will end up saying something insulting, so I shall refrain. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 8 15:28:36 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA02901; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 15:25:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 15:25:15 -0700 X-Peer-Info: remote-ip 199.125.98.213 local-ip 199.125.85.40 local-name mercury.mv.net User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 18:17:15 -0700 Subject: Re: Message to Dave Nagel From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "vortex l eskimo.com" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030908174746.00ba98c8@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"khRRU1.0.Fj.A7GN_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51791 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 9/8/03 2:50 PM, "Jed Rothwell" wrote: > [It just happens that David Nagel gave a talk that refuted this absurd > "stored mechanical energy" nonsense. I wrote him the following note:] > > Did you notice the comments in the Wall Street Journal Cold Fusion article > about stored mechanical energy and cracks? "I, for one, would love to hear > smart physicists explain why the excess heat from the deuterium-filled > palladium reflects not nuclear fusion but the release of mechanical energy > - sort of like letting go of a stretched spring." What a foolish thing to > say! She does not understand the concept of "orders of magnitude." Neither > did Morrison. You should send that reporter your ICCF10 paper . . . > > ["Energetics Of Defects And Isotropic Strain In Palladium"] > > If I write to her, I will end up saying something insulting, so I shall > refrain. > > > - Jed You should refrain, since you have completely misunderstood her intent. She wrote this with tongue-in-cheek, but you did not pick that up. She was insulting the negativists -- challenging them to do what she already knows is impossible -- to show that the excess energy can be related to spring-like molecular storage in the conventional sense. Dr. Eugene F. Mallove New Energy Foundation, Inc. Infinite Energy Magazine P.O. Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 Ph: 603-485-4700 Fx: 603-485-4710 www.infinite-energy.com (Note NEW phone/fax numbers!) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 8 15:47:04 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA17565; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 15:44:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 15:44:43 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030908183433.00b035f8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 18:43:50 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Message to Dave Nagel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"bFRCb.0.GI4.QPGN_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51792 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Eugene F. Mallove writes: > > - sort of like letting go of a stretched spring." What a foolish thing to > > say! She does not understand the concept of "orders of magnitude." Neither > > did Morrison. You should send that reporter your ICCF10 paper . . . > > > > If I write to her, I will end up saying something insulting, so I shall > > refrain. > > > > > > You should refrain, since you have completely misunderstood her intent. She > wrote this with tongue-in-cheek, but you did not pick that up. I hope you are correct and she was kidding. I half picked that up. I thought perhaps that is what she had in mind. "But then again . . ." I thought, "many skeptics and fence sitters say things like this." After all, Nagel was responding to a letter published in the New Scientist. Not only was a skeptic stupid enough to say this, the editors of New Scientist were stupid enough to publish the letter without comment. > She was > insulting the negativists -- challenging them to do what she already knows > is impossible -- to show that the excess energy can be related to > spring-like molecular storage in the conventional sense. The negativists are so dumb they will not recognize this as a challenge, or an insult. It is a safe bet they are no smarter than the editors at New Scientist. They will nod and say, "she is right; it must be mechanical energy. Why bother proving it?" Most newspaper readers will have no clue whether mechanical energy might explains the reaction or not. To the average reader this sounds plausible. You could post that "explanation" on sci.physics.fusion and not a single skeptic would have enough sense to point out that it fails by 6 or 7 orders of magnitude. In other words, her tactic probably backfired, and she only confused the issue. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 8 18:14:45 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA20302; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 18:12:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 18:12:14 -0700 X-Peer-Info: remote-ip 199.125.98.193 local-ip 199.125.85.40 local-name mercury.mv.net User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 21:11:03 -0700 Subject: Re: Message to Dave Nagel From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "vortex l eskimo.com" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030908183433.00b035f8@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"l80Ea.0._y4.jZIN_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51793 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 9/8/03 3:43 PM, "Jed Rothwell" wrote: > Eugene F. Mallove writes: > >>> - sort of like letting go of a stretched spring." What a foolish thing to >>> say! She does not understand the concept of "orders of magnitude." Neither >>> did Morrison. You should send that reporter your ICCF10 paper . . . >>> >>> If I write to her, I will end up saying something insulting, so I shall >>> refrain. >>> >>> >> >> You should refrain, since you have completely misunderstood her intent. She >> wrote this with tongue-in-cheek, but you did not pick that up. > > I hope you are correct and she was kidding. I have zero doubt that this was her meaning. I had lengthy discussions with her before and after ICCF10. >I half picked that up. It seemed very clear to me from the context. > I > thought perhaps that is what she had in mind. "But then again . . ." I > thought, "many skeptics and fence sitters say things like this." After all, > Nagel was responding to a letter published in the New Scientist. Not only > was a skeptic stupid enough to say this, the editors of New Scientist were > stupid enough to publish the letter without comment. > > >> She was >> insulting the negativists -- challenging them to do what she already knows >> is impossible -- to show that the excess energy can be related to >> spring-like molecular storage in the conventional sense. > > The negativists are so dumb they will not recognize this as a challenge, or > an insult. They don't have to recognize it as anything. As far as they are concerned CF/LENR is dead as a doornail. They take up no challenges -- other than to be sure no official changes in policy occurs. Witness Huizenga's admission (reported in IE#50) that he still frequents DOE to put down new cold fusion eruptions of support within DOE or perhaps bombarding DOE from without. >It is a safe bet they are no smarter than the editors at New > Scientist. They will nod and say, "she is right; it must be mechanical > energy. Why bother proving it?" Most newspaper readers will have no clue > whether mechanical energy might explains the reaction or not. I agree that the uninitiated could take it that way. > To the > average reader this sounds plausible. You could post that "explanation" on > sci.physics.fusion and not a single skeptic would have enough sense to > point out that it fails by 6 or 7 orders of magnitude. > > In other words, her tactic probably backfired, and she only confused the > issue. No, I think that the sense of the article is quite clearly that she is needling the skeptics. > > Dr. Eugene F. Mallove New Energy Foundation, Inc. Infinite Energy Magazine P.O. Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 Ph: 603-485-4700 Fx: 603-485-4710 www.infinite-energy.com > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 8 20:49:59 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA23947; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 20:47:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 20:47:18 -0700 Message-ID: <6756761.1063079234779.JavaMail.nobody@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 20:47:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Randy Souther To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: C&EN Article Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=646 X-Mailer: Earthlink Web Access Mail version 3.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA23898 Resent-Message-ID: <"T9iEG1.0._r5.6rKN_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51794 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: There was a one-page article in the August 25, 2003 issue of Chemical & Engineering News (p. 33), noting ICCF10. In spite of the title, "Science, Religion, and the Art of Cold Fusion," it was a fairly neutral or even slightly positive article. The author, a senior editor named Stephen K. Ritter, offers a quick history of CF and notes that "The research community at large now dismisses the ongoing research as 'pathological science,' yet cold fusion researchers continue to maintain a genuine, optimistic belief that they are doing good work and that it's worth pursuing. Why?" This question, coupled with ICCF10, seems to be the genesis of the article. "If one adheres rigorously to the scientific method, the research community should reserve final judgement as long as research in this area continues. Cold fusion researchers, though marginalized, thus continue to pursue their work. But why do they choose to do so? Obviously, they still have hopes for their research, but their persistence could justifiably be considered a leap of faith.... New data being reported at the cold fusion meeting this week may or may not provide some answers." Randy Souther From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 9 04:16:09 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id EAA30269; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 04:12:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 04:12:56 -0700 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: Message to Dave Nagel Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 18:09:06 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"8z29e1.0.tO7.uMRN_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51795 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tut-tut, This sort of dialogue very clearly illustrates why cold-fusion is such a whipping post - a favorable report(er) is assaulted for not composing 'the perfect report'. Bet she steers clear of the CF crowd, if she gets wind of this kind of back-stabbing pedantry. > -----Original Message----- > From: Eugene F. Mallove [mailto:editor@infinite-energy.com] > Sent: Tuesday, 2003 September 09 11:11 > To: vortex l eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Message to Dave Nagel > > > On 9/8/03 3:43 PM, "Jed Rothwell" wrote: > > > Eugene F. Mallove writes: > > > >>> - sort of like letting go of a stretched spring." What a > foolish thing to > >>> say! She does not understand the concept of "orders of > magnitude." Neither > >>> did Morrison. You should send that reporter your ICCF10 paper . . . > >>> > >>> If I write to her, I will end up saying something insulting, > so I shall > >>> refrain. > >>> > >>> > >> > >> You should refrain, since you have completely misunderstood > her intent. She > >> wrote this with tongue-in-cheek, but you did not pick that up. > > > > I hope you are correct and she was kidding. > > I have zero doubt that this was her meaning. I had lengthy > discussions with > her before and after ICCF10. > > > >I half picked that up. > > It seemed very clear to me from the context. > > > I > > thought perhaps that is what she had in mind. "But then again . . ." I > > thought, "many skeptics and fence sitters say things like > this." After all, > > Nagel was responding to a letter published in the New > Scientist. Not only > > was a skeptic stupid enough to say this, the editors of New > Scientist were > > stupid enough to publish the letter without comment. > > > > > >> She was > >> insulting the negativists -- challenging them to do what she > already knows > >> is impossible -- to show that the excess energy can be related to > >> spring-like molecular storage in the conventional sense. > > > > The negativists are so dumb they will not recognize this as a > challenge, or > > an insult. > > They don't have to recognize it as anything. As far as they are concerned > CF/LENR is dead as a doornail. They take up no challenges -- other than to > be sure no official changes in policy occurs. Witness Huizenga's admission > (reported in IE#50) that he still frequents DOE to put down new > cold fusion > eruptions of support within DOE or perhaps bombarding DOE from without. > > >It is a safe bet they are no smarter than the editors at New > > Scientist. They will nod and say, "she is right; it must be mechanical > > energy. Why bother proving it?" Most newspaper readers will have no clue > > whether mechanical energy might explains the reaction or not. > > I agree that the uninitiated could take it that way. > > > > To the > > average reader this sounds plausible. You could post that > "explanation" on > > sci.physics.fusion and not a single skeptic would have enough sense to > > point out that it fails by 6 or 7 orders of magnitude. > > > > In other words, her tactic probably backfired, and she only confused the > > issue. > > No, I think that the sense of the article is quite clearly that she is > needling the skeptics. > > > > > > Dr. Eugene F. Mallove > New Energy Foundation, Inc. > Infinite Energy Magazine > P.O. Box 2816 > Concord, NH 03302-2816 > > Ph: 603-485-4700 > Fx: 603-485-4710 > www.infinite-energy.com > > > > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 9 07:01:39 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA11396; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 06:57:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 06:57:53 -0700 X-Peer-Info: remote-ip 199.125.98.239 local-ip 199.125.85.40 local-name mercury.mv.net User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 09:29:51 -0700 Subject: Hard copy of first Correa book available From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "vortex l eskimo.com" Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"zRE3e2.0.6n2.RnTN_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51796 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Friends and Colleagues, AKRONOS Publishing is delighted to announce the launching of its new Book Division, with the publication of the book Experimental Aetherometry, Volume 1 by Paulo N. Correa and Alexandra N. Correa This book encompasses ABRI Monographs AS2-01 - AS2-07, as well as the "Introduction to Experimental Aetherometry, Vol 1", all previously published in electronic format. For a more detailed description and ordering information, please consult the Akronos Books Catalog at http://www.aetherometry.com/books.html. Other books currently in preparation at Akronos are "Nanometric Functions of Bioenergy (Foundations of Aetherometric Biophysics, Vol 1)", and "Experimental Aetherometry, Volume 2". Yours, Laura McFinlay Akronos Publishing Hard From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 9 07:08:21 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA18669; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 07:05:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 07:05:26 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030909064337.02ec1448@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 06:45:23 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Subject: RE: Message to Dave Nagel In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_398559421==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <"Dek103.0.aZ4.cuTN_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51797 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_398559421==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Dear Unsigned: "Feels the pain but not whipped" In a note from her she says: > There has indeed been abundant negative reaction, but enough of the other kind that I don't regret the column. Far from it Tut-tut, >This sort of dialogue very clearly illustrates > why cold-fusion is such a whipping post - Steve Krivit Editor and Webmaster Los Angeles, California, USA www.coldfusioninfo.com Phone: (310) 721-5919 Fax: (310) 470-8190 --=====================_398559421==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Dear Unsigned:

"Feels the pain but not whipped"

In a note from her she says:

> There has indeed been abundant negative reaction, but enough of the other kind that I don't regret the column. Far from it

Tut-tut,

This sort of dialogue very clearly illustrates
 why cold-fusion is such a whipping post -


Steve Krivit
Editor and Webmaster
Los Angeles, California, USA
www.coldfusioninfo.com
Phone: (310) 721-5919
Fax: (310) 470-8190 --=====================_398559421==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 9 07:33:21 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA03670; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 07:28:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 07:28:37 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030909101458.00b03608@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 10:28:22 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Message to Dave Nagel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"FwH41.0.yu.JEUN_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51798 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: explorecraft writes: > Tut-tut, > > This sort of dialogue very clearly illustrates > why cold-fusion is such a whipping post - > a favorable report(er) is assaulted for not > composing 'the perfect report'. > Bet she steers clear of the CF crowd, > if she gets wind of this kind of back-stabbing pedantry. This is nonsense. First, if that was a "favorable" report, I would hate to see an unfavorable one. If a reporter were to write something that distorted that about a plasma fusion conference, or a conference on micromachines or some other mainstream topic, she would be fired. It would be like a report on a biology conference that is mainly devoted to to a description of the lunatic fringe creationists who did not attend. I realize the WSJ reporter has no choice in this matter. No one can publish an article about CF in any mainstream journal or newspaper unless they kowtow to the pathological skeptics. However, this makes articles about CF as bigoted and unrealistic as the Georgia and Alabama newspaper reports of the civil rights movement in 1959. Second, it is not "pedantry" to point out the mechanical stress is 6 to 8 orders of magnitude too small to explain the results. I think she should have said that. Instead of playing games and trying to bait the opposition, she should have said something like: "The only critique published in the last few years (in New Scientist) claims that mechanical stress might be the source of energy in cold fusion. However, this would be a million to a billion times too small to explain actual cold fusion results." I think that a news report should be straightforward and factual. I do not like the modern style of mixing literary obliqueness with news of a technical conference. You should stick to Who, What, When, Where, and cut out the mind games. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 9 07:47:42 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA14081; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 07:44:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 07:44:08 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030909102959.00b03608@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 10:43:57 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Oriani and Fisher Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id HAA13976 Resent-Message-ID: <"PrSuk1.0.mR3.rSUN_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51799 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Eugene F. Mallove wrote: > > 1 mm square, based on angles of the impact holes. It is hard to imagine a 1 > > mm solid flake of metal being wafted up in the effluent gas. > > It would be essentially impossible, unless I misunderstand the geometry of > the Oriani-Fisher experiment. The metal disk that Oriani arranged to block > any possible radiation from below this baffle precludes this. Yes, there is no way a 1-mm flake could get through, but that would be impossible anyway, since bubbles and the stream of effluent gas can only lift a minute flake. I discussed this briefly with Oriani. He agreed a tiny fragment of metal might get through the baffle, and some kind of filter would be necessary to eliminate this hypothesis. > Further, if a flake were the source of the radiation-scoring of the CR39 > track detectors, one might imagine that such gross, dramatic effects would > have been seen earlier from other electrolytic systems in which track > detectors were placed. (There have been charged particle tracks seen, but > not of this extraordinary kind.) There have not been many CR39 experiments, or other effective methods of detecting charged particles. Eroded and damaged cathodes and precipitated flakes are quite common. This cell is unusually small, with little electrolyte, so perhaps it is easier for flakes to escape upward. It would not surprise me to learn that nuclear-active material is particularly likely to flake off, or that tiny particles are more likely to become nuclear-active. > I spoke with Oriani after ICCF10 and he told me that tracks are observed in > about 70% of the experiments, but in only 6 out of 100 tests have there been > such fantastic radiation "explosions" that appeared to emanate from > localized sources in the gas phase. Right. So after he installs a filter or cotton wool, and he does another 100 tests, even if none of them show this dramatic effect that may not be very significant. > > It would be remarkable if CF reactions occur in vapor. > > It would not be any more remarkable than the now fairly well established > excess energy from water-based "cold fog" explosions from Graneau et al. Or > the excess energy in plasma discharges found in many other types of > experiments. That's a good point. Also, the Griggs gadget appears to produce heat in the liquid water. > In any event, as the forthcoming IE#51 will show, the crème-de-la crème of > cold fusion researchers (unfortunately not to be publicly identified per > their request -- use your imagination!) No can do. I have no imagination. Unless the authors are able and willing to go public with complete details, to answer all kinds of questions from other scientists, and submit their results to third party evaluation and replication, I automatically dismiss them. I cannot even keep track of the work done by ordinary, non-secret researchers. I have no time for cloak and dagger results. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 9 09:57:06 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA09156; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 09:49:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 09:49:29 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy@metro.lakes.com (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000601c3746d$20473260$ea201f41@woh.rr.com> References: <000601c3746d$20473260$ea201f41@woh.rr.com> Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 11:49:31 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: ORMES Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <"n9flG3.0.yE2.OIWN_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51800 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ORMES

Nicholas Reiter Posted;

Gentlemen,
For some of us, research and questing after new science follows a river path

I agree, particularly when it involves a source of gold or the platinum group metals!

Sam was the first of us two to suggest that there might be a model or
analogy with the ORME theory.  At first, I had cringed a bit having

This would be a good place to note that a lot of the literature on ORMES, particularly the links to alchemy and other New Age theories, are crap. One that comes to mind is an article which was published in Nexus last year. The author quoted Hal Puthoff, who denied the quote. The same man has written books on his descent from Jesus Christ and Mary Magdalene, so he is a real manure spreader.


So here is a general query for all good vortexians.  Can anyone direct me to
any decent analytical work done on ORME samples, or any proof of existence?

It has always been my intention to experiment with the collection of naturally occurring ORMES, but I have never had the financing to carry it through to conclusion.

The following are some URL's that I have collected over the years. ORMUS - http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/whatisit.htm

Barry Carter, whose website the subtle energies is, seems to be a good experimenter. He has a design for a filter capable of extracting the material from well water.
 
       High-Spin Monatomic Research at:
       http://monatomic.earth.com/

       The WhiteGold Web Home Page at:
       http://www.zz.com/WhiteGoldWeb/

       Superconductive s-ORMEs
       http://www.jps.net/shacoma/dh/



From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 9 11:02:51 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA10479; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:57:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:57:59 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:05:05 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: ORMES Resent-Message-ID: <"xgGFq1.0.YZ2.cIXN_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51801 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nettiquette is dead? At 11:49 AM 9/9/3, thomas malloy wrote: > >ORMES >
Nicholas Reiter Posted;
>

>
Gentlemen,
>
>
For some of us, research and questing >after new science follows a river path
>

>
I agree, particularly when it involves a source of gold or the >platinum group metals!
>

>
Sam was the first of us two to suggest >that there might be a model or
>
analogy with the ORME theory.  At >first, I had cringed a bit having
>

>
This would be a good place to note that a lot of the literature >on ORMES, particularly the links to alchemy and other New Age >theories, are crap. One that comes to mind is an article which was >published in Nexus last year. The author quoted Hal Puthoff, who >denied the quote. The same man has written books on his descent from >Jesus Christ and Mary Magdalene, so he is a real manure >spreader.
>

>

>So here is a general query for all good vortexians.  Can anyone >direct me to
>
any decent analytical work done on ORME >samples, or any proof of existence?
>

>
It has always been my intention to experiment with the collection >of naturally occurring ORMES, but I have never had the financing to >carry it through to conclusion.
>

>
The following are some URL's that I have collected over the >years. ORMUS - >http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/whatisit.htm
>

>
Barry Carter, whose website the subtle >energies is, seems to be a good experimenter. He has a design for a >filter capable of extracting the material from well >water.
>
 
>       High-Spin Monatomic Research >at:
>       http://monatomic.earth.com/
>
>       The WhiteGold Web Home Page >at:
>       >http://www.zz.com/WhiteGoldWeb/
>
>       Superconductive s-ORMEs
>       >http://www.jps.net/shacoma/dh/
>

>

>

> > Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 9 12:11:40 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA07129; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 12:05:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 12:05:56 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick@highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 09:05:41 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: ORMES Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"c62ms.0.Zk1._HYN_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51802 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace - >Nettiquette is dead? No, but plain text just about is. But even my ancient Eudora version played that message just fine. You using Pine or something? - Rick >At 11:49 AM 9/9/3, thomas malloy wrote: >> > >
Thomas,
 
Thanks for your thoughts.
 
See below comments inserted=20 thus***********
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 thomas malloy
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, = 2003 12:49=20 PM
Subject: ORMES
 
 
This would be a good place to note that a lot of the literature = on ORMES,=20 particularly the links to alchemy and other New Age theories, are = crap. One=20 that comes to mind is an article which was published in Nexus last = year. The=20 author quoted Hal Puthoff, who denied the quote. The same man has = written=20 books on his descent from Jesus Christ and Mary Magdalene, so he is a = real=20 manure spreader.
 
*********  Yes, this I seem to = see in=20 abundance, after a number of web searches.  I did finally have = the chance=20 to peruse Keith's posted version of the British patent, which seems = thorough=20 and convincing.  I tend to think that many of the more esoteric = New Agers=20 simply did not bother to research the patent claims and text, or = wouldn't=20 understand it.  Its unfortunate that such synergy of flakiness = exists, as=20 I admit that I do have an historical interest in the Magdalenian=20 hypothesis.
 
It has always been my intention to experiment with the collection = of=20 naturally occurring ORMES, but I have never had the financing to carry = it=20 through to conclusion.
 
********** If I can find some = empirical basis for=20 it, the part that interests me the most would be the examination of = what=20 happens when the ORME species undergoes state change back to = metallic. =20 Or vica versa.

The following are some URL's that I have collected over the = years. ORMUS -=20 http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/whatisit.htm

Barry Carter, whose website the subtle = energies is,=20 seems to be a good experimenter. He has a design for a filter capable = of=20 extracting the material from well water.
 
***********  Thanks.  I = agree - I liked=20 Carter's site.  It has a sensibility to it compared to the = others. =20 I have been playing around somewhat with the basic chemistry, seeing = what I=20 can precipitate from different water as well as grape wine, honey, and = crushed=20 rock (so far, limestone and granite powder).  The claim that calf = brains=20 had several percent of ORME iridium and rhodium is just a little = squishy for=20 me, though hey - I'll boil anything in lye=20 once.
------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C3770B.875A6620-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 9 17:13:33 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA24361; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 17:09:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 17:09:21 -0700 Message-ID: <3F5E6A16.B598616A@ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 17:02:30 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: ICCF11 and centralizing info in LENR-CANR.org References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030909181649.00b035b8@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"oTU-31.0.Uy5.nkcN_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51814 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Sept 09,003 Vortex, Thanks Jed. Keep up the good work. As Pogo said: "We have met the enemy, and it is us" (also) -ak- Jed Rothwell wrote: > Akira Kawasaki writes: > > > I understand the next ICCF (ICCF-11) is to be held in Marseilles, > > France. > > Yes. > > > Now does Jed, or anybody else that attended ICCF-10, know when it is to > > be held and other tentative details? > > I know nothing yet, but Jean-Paul contacted me the other day, and I will > assist him with a web site similar to ICCF10.org. I will let you know as > soon as he tells me. > > > Why not use the Lenr-Canr web site for the next and future Conferences > > like it was done for ICCF-10. This should save a lot of time, effort, > > and wandering. It will keep things focused. > > It would, but there is a good deal of resistance to the idea, strangely > enough. Getting the participants to agree to upload papers has been like > pulling teeth. I was just told this is NOT repeat NOT the official site of > the online ICCF10 Proceedings after all, and I have to ask each author for > permission, despite what I was previously told. > > This resistance is hard to explain, but I think what it boils down to is > that many CF researchers are anxious to keep their results secret, and they > want to keep the field a private preserve. Some are angry with us for > stirring up so much interest in the field. Some say that I am doing this > only to "gratify my own ego." Perhaps they think I am some sort of sexual > deviant, and I get a thrill out of doing months of entry level secretarial > work for no pay. (They have not yet accused Ed Storms or Dieter Britz of > gratifying their egos by spending months on the EndNote database.) > > Some authors have gone out of their way to prevent me from uploading their > papers. This isn't hard; when the author tells me to pull a paper, or > correct one, I do that instantly. But these people appear to be trying to > stop others from sending me material. Some seem to be jealous of me, which > is why I am careful to leave my name and most of my opinions out of the > site (except in my own papers). I am trying to make LENR-CANR the work of > the researchers themselves, not me. I make no decisions over which papers > are accepted and which are rejected. Ed Storms and other scientists decide > that. > > I suspect that some researchers are jealous of other researchers who have > made a big splash at LENR-CANR. That is why I have not publicized the > rankings of the authors, except the first three. The #1 author, Kevin Wolf, > died years ago, so other authors should not be jealous of him. > > CF researchers who oppose the site will be upset to learn that in the past > week, people have downloaded 32,000 copies of those photos of high school > kids, and 9,000 more papers. Pathological skeptics will be even more upset, > I hope. The plan is to marginalize opposition from both ends of the > spectrum. We don't attack, argue, or even deal with them opponents -- we > ignore them. CF researchers who do not want their papers on LENR-CANR are > welcome to set up other sites and try to attract attention on their own. > Pathological skeptics are welcome to set up their own sites or submit > papers to journals -- something they have never done. > > We are not competing with anyone, and we have no agenda, except the one > described in the "Appeal to Readers." We are presenting information to the > public, and the public is lapping it up. > > Peter Hagelstein is thinking about approaching the DoE again, and asking > for a second ERAB panel. I told him he should not bother. If the trends at > LENR-CANR continue the DoE will soon be coming to *him*. I suggested that > he should reinforce success and try to beef up the information at > LENR-CANR, instead of continuing with strategies that have failed > consistently for 15 years. People who have studied the military history of > WWI will understand what I am getting at. See, for example: > > J. Laffin, "British Butchers and Bunglers of World War One," (Sutton > Publishing, 1998) > > Note especially the comments by Winston Churchill quoted therein. > > - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 9 21:35:45 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA25072; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 21:34:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 21:34:09 -0700 Message-ID: <001701c3774c$3a185980$ed09bf3f@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Intrinsic OU Heat Effects in Salt Water Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 22:32:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940059b062ed0191c1e4a98d5a62f28392c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: <"dvW6N1.0.b76.0dgN_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51815 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Water auto-ionizes: 2 H2O <---> (H3O+)aq + (OH-)aq, and can absorb O2 gas (2.3 cm^3 per 100 mlliliters H2O even at 100 deg C) and the (O2-) ions from the atmosphere. An experiment was conducted to see if salt water would absorb (O2-) ions and produce heat due to hydration effects in the water. Method: Approximately 400 grams of Reverse Osmosis-treated well water was placed in each of two china bowls (~ 30 square inches of water surface area) placed on a plastic tray. About 15 grams of NaCl (iodized table salt) was placed in one bowl. A Honeywell "Environizer" air purifier/negative ion-generator that is in constant use in the ~ 2,000 ft^3 "lab space" (along with a 200 cfm HEPA air filter unit) and a refrigeration room air conditioner assures a constant 68 F room temperature and an abundance of small (O2-) ions. Hourly temperature measurements of the samples were made over a 7 hour period. Results: Initially, the Salt Water sample was about 2 deg F below the R.O. sample. After stabilizing in about 4 hours it remained at about 1.5 deg F higher than the 62 deg F R.O. sample, indicating ~ 750 to 1,000 joules of heat maintained in the sample over and above heat loss. Proposed Reactions: (O2-)aq/gas + (H3O+)aq ---> ( H )aq + H2O + (O2)aq or (O2-)aq/gas + (Na+)aq + (Cl-)aq ---> Na + (O2)aq + (Cl-)aq Na + H2O ---> ( H )aq + (+)aq + (OH-)aq + (Cl-)aq + (e-)aq (e-)aq + (Na+)aq + (OH-)aq + (Cl-)aq ---> Na + (OH-)aq + (Cl-)aq Na + H2O ---> ( H )aq+ (Na+)aq + (OH-)aq + (e-)aq And so on, producing heat in an indefinite chain duration. joule/mole eV/bond (O2-)aq - 43,440 0.45 (Cl-)aq - 131,355 1.36 (OH-)aq - 157,406 1.63 (Li +)aq - 70,100 0.73 (Na +)aq - 62,593 0.65 (K +)aq - 67,700 0.70 (H3O +)aq - 71,000 0.73 H-Cl 431,620 4.48 H-H 436,000 4.53 H-OH 498,360 5.17 O-O 498,360 5.17 O-H 427,500 4.44 H-OOH 369,000 3.83 HO-OH 213,000 2.21 Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 10 08:36:20 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA04898; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 08:31:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 08:31:51 -0700 Message-ID: <004c01c377ac$273a0560$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Is ZPE "located" in 4-space? Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 07:59:36 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0049_01C37771.7A65AF40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: <"0IzUo2.0.qB1.aFqN_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51816 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C37771.7A65AF40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On a recent re-reading of "The Fourth Dimension - A guide to the higher = universes." - by Rudy Rucker, a few ideas relating to free-energy were = suggested by the implications of a 4-space universe.=20 To backtrack a bit - In the 1800's a fellow named Edwin Abbott wrote a = classic fantasy (but scientifically serious) called "Flatland". Flatland = is a world with only two dimensions, populated (much like earth) with = squares, loops and crooked characters- who see their world differently = than we do. Had Abbott known about TV, he probably would have used it as = a more convenient vehicle, as his aim was merely to use some 2D = interchange-medium to teach the reader a few things about an unseen = dimension using analogy. Flatlanders are quite content with life and = they dread the thought of another dimension, but more than a few humans = have the same insecurity problem. And some scientists may be the most = insecure of all with the implications of 4-space... If it ever happens, in our "enlightened future" that a source of = free-energy... call it OU energy...or call it ZPE...or whatever, is = discovered, then it goes without saying that many of the prior = breakthroughs leading up to its acceptance will have to be forced upon = the science-elite and other self-appointed experts, who will end up = looking like little more than local-yokels in the big picture, just a = step-up from flatlanders. In other words, even if ZPE does indeed become = a future economic resource, it is one which presently exists, both = literally and figuratively, on the *interface* of our 3-space with a = more general reality... call it 4-space. The term "our 3-space" refers = to the normal localized sensory appreciation of work-a-day reality... = and I will attempt to explain an "entry-level" concept of 4-space with = several analogies (BTW 4-space, unlike the so-called fourth dimension, = is NOT time related, at least not in the early fractals, the ones that = we can grasp thus far). First, try to visualize "dimensions" not as giant steps but as a = gradualized progressions. The analogy here can be found in the art-form = known as "bas-relief".=20 Bas-relief is more than two dimensions aesthetically, but not quite = three... so, let's say that bas-relief can be quantified to be a = "fractional dimension," say a 3.1D fractal. A fractal is defined as a = fractional-dimension, which is to say - a "slice" of reality that is = described mathematically, more so than in sensory terms, although there = is a great deal of sensory information to be derived from "animating" a = fractal.=20 Just as going from two dimensions into three dimensions can be done in = gradualized steps; likewise, going from three into four can be = gradualized and analyzed mathematically and mentally. This allows for = the possibility that some early steps of 4-space which are hidden to = most of us now, are so close to the far-end of our 3-space horizon that = we can easily get a glimpse.=20 When we discover certain energy "anomalies" by experiment, for instance, = we can build on that data and incorporate the mathematics of 4-space to = thereby learn how to induce an increasing 4-space presence. We might say = that the Hubble telescope is a window into early 4-space, just as the = electron microscope is a window back into 1-space, which... ta-da .... = may actually be circuitously connected somehow to 4-space... That = "connectivity" is the key feature of 4-space. The advanced field of = Supersymmetry tells us there are many transparent extra dimensions, = said to be "enfolded"... but another way of verbalizing this theory is = to looked at each of these extra dimensions as far-fractals of 4-space = that eventually colligate into 1-space.=20 The second analogy is a little more complex, but if you can follow it, = is rather expository. It came up on the hydrino forum (for another = reason). The analogy is elegantly described by one of Mills' chief = antagonists, Nora Baron. As borrowed for use here, the analogy becomes a = little deeper because one should consider it on two levels, just as = Rucker invites us to do in his book. The first level is explicative but = the second level is by analogy, and this analogy can help explain the = almost-unexplainable, i.e. the transition from 3-space to 4-space. Paraphrased or quoted from Nora Baron:=20 "When mathematicians say "2-sphere" or "2D sphere" what they mean is an = object that is like the surface of a ball in 3-dimensional space. = Technically it exists in only two dimensions, but it is "warped" by an = outside independent influence. For example, the set of points in 3-space that satisfy the equation x^2 + y^2 + z^2 =3D 1 is called a 2-sphere. You might think, "Gee, that looks like a 3-dimensional object to me. It = certainly is not contained in a flat 2-dimensional plane. It has a big bulge, a = curvature." That is certainly true. It is called a 2-sphere for two reasons:=20 (1) It can be parametrized by only two coordinates: essentially = longitude and latitude. As on the surface of the earth, those two = coordinates are sufficiently to locate every point. =20 (2) If you looked at the 2-sphere with a very high powered microscope, = the curvature becomes almost imperceptible, and what you are looking at = resembles a flat plane. It is what mathematicians call a "2-manifold". = The surface of a smooth torus (donut) is also a 2-manifold, and there = are many others. When you look at them "locally", i.e., under a = microscope, they look like a flat plane. As on the surface of a globe, you measure distances between points by = joining them with great circles. You probably know about great circles = from hearing about airline routes. For example, the great circle route = from, say, Seattle to London does not go along a latitude line. Instead = it goes far north, over Canada. That route is substantially shorter than = the latitude route. Great circles are shortest-distance "lines" In general shortest-distance = lines are called geodesics. On a flat plane, the geodesics are just = straight lines. Of course, the actual *shortest* route from Seattle to = London is not a great circle. It is a straight line in 3-dimensional = space, going straight through the earth. Airplanes can't take that route = because it would involve burrowing a tunnel hundreds of miles below the = earth's surface. But remember what a "Klein" bottle looks like? Now suppose you are thinking of a 2-dimensional sphere, like the surface = of the earth. Does it have zero thickness? Or is it hollow, like a = balloon but with a vacuum on the inside? Take two points, P and Q, on = that sphere. You can join them by a geodesic on the sphere, or you can = join them by a straight line. =20 The straight line is shorter. If the two points have electric charge = (think of it as if Seattle and London have electric charge), there is a = force between those two points. Since there is nothing but vacuum = between them, I think that force is computed as proportional to the = inverse of the square of the straight-line distance between them. That = is Coulomb's law. The force between points acts not along geodesic = curves, but along ordinary straight lines. That is exactly what = Coulomb's law specifies. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Now can you transpose that bit of insight relating to the 2D=3D=3D>3D = transition, from 3D=3D=3D>4D? =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D There will be points on the interface, i.e. the "early" 4-space that can = be parametrized by three coordinates. But unlike most coordinates, = these interfacial points are also gateways to another more general space = that is usually hidden by its own complexity. Kind of like a Klein = bottle.... Lets say you have experimental evidence that implies a chameleon-like = wave-particle which seems to travels faster than the speed of light in = some experiments, yet the particle, when slowed down by interaction in = any local environment, suddenly develops its own apparent mass, which = might lead you to believe that either the particle has condensed or that = it is acting through an intermediary to transfer some of its energy. These peculiarities might suggest that when we look around us for = "anything" that may exist mostly in 4-space but occasionally "grazes" = our 3-space, and which may "seem" to be superluminal (because we don't = know all the vectors) then [eureka] we find that we already have a = preliminary "handle" on that object...well, at least a name, the = neutrino. As such, this particle may indeed be able to "express" a = mass-energy in our three-space, and may even be coerced to do so = *on-demand* perhaps, but we are just now getting an accurate look at = its features. Is it fair to say, then, that ZPE and the neutrino are one and the same? = No. But it might be accurate to say that the neutrino can and should be = considered to be our most evident and well-studied subset of ZPE. The = neutrino is a packet of extremely high frequency radiation which deeply = blankets 4-space, a packet which can interact in our 3-space leaving = behind certain lingering mass-energy features... just as previously in = our universe, other packets of high frequency radiation (later to be = known as "quarks") condensed out of 4-space providing us with all that = we consider to be "normal" mass.=20 Approximately 7.5 billion solar neutrinos per cm^2 arrive on earth at = lightspeed from 3D solar coordinates every second, and perhaps many = times that amount arrive from other vectors in 4-space superluminally. = Most of these are transparent to 3-space and zoom through us, = unperturbed, but is there any possibility of engineering a kind of = antenna? Remember, even if the mass of a neutrino is small, when they = are moving at light speed their energy is greater than all the nukes = every constructed.=20 And that's just for one neutrino. Unless....er..... Einstein was wrong ! = ;-) There are lots of implications to a neutrino-centered 4-space = visualization of free-energy that are uncharted, yet to be worked out, = and perhaps this long-winded rambling has helped some experimenter grasp = a direction in which to trek out on....if not, try to find Rucker's book = or a more technical one entitled: "Beyond the Third Dimension" by = Thomas Banchoff ... Jones BTW. If I had to take an educated guess as to the mass-energy equivalent = of the neutrino interaction, it would be pegged at 3.4 eV, but I do not = believe that this is the mass-energy of the neutrino, per se. First, it = is clear that this amount of energy does not have a particularly high = frequency equivalent: it is UV - almost in the visible range. However, = in the process of dropping into 3-space we are probably seeing just a = figment, or a remnant, of the real object, a secondary derivative of a = much higher frequency...kind of like electrical induction operating on = an interfacial particle (or perhaps two linked interfacial particles). If I had to suggest an experimental method to capture or induce some of = the neutrino energy from universal 4-space into our 3-space, it would be = to "stress" the simplest of all elements, the hydrogen atom, thereby = using it as a kind of 3-space=3D=3D>1-space antenna....but probably = neither the hydrogen molecule nor the bare proton will work using this = technique - it must be the H monoatomic form, which is either compressed = or expanded outside its normal size range. This is because the volume = inside of the atom's electron-sphere is of a very important 4-spatial = size (it is not "hollow" in 4-space but contains an exact number of = virtual particles). Every other atom in our universe is based on this = unit of 4-space and neutrino transparency probably depends on it too.=20 It goes without saying that there may be any number of ways to "skin a = cat" (i.e. to "stress" atomic hydrogen) such as in a confining metal = matrix ...or with a catalytic electrochemical "hole"... in either case, = thereby forcing atomic H to interact with the neutrino flux....BTW one = of the more common spectra found in sonoluminescence is around 365 nm... = which is 3.4 eV. One way to test this is simple. Load up some Pd with = hydrogen - you don't need deuterium - and get two precision = thermocouples. Measure an unloaded sample against a loaded sample for = several days - there should be a small but persistent temperature gain = in the loaded sample, even with no applied current. That particular mass-energy, 3.4 eV is intimately connected, not just to = hydrogen, but perhaps to a more general hidden universal 4-space = construct - one that may link-up with hydrogen to form that = *double-linked interface* - and it is called positronium.=20 The electron and positron, when bound together, have a "decay" energy of = 6.8 eV which could provide two 3.4 eV pairs, which themselves may or may = not be actual photons. Perhaps the pairs are first, leptons, which may = then decay further into photons. Could 4-space be filled with "virtual" = positronium, the properties of which "make" the electron on every = hydrogen atom orbit the nucleus at a specific distance, and then = actually work to prevent the electron from being captured by that = proton? Is that what "aether" really is ("virtual" positronium) ? There are two ongoing experiments measuring directly the mass of the = electron neutrino. Both Mainz and Troitsk groups study the beta decay of = tritium.... Fitting a monoenergetic line at the endpoint, they obtain an = upper limit 3.4 eV...."Until the origin of the endpoint anomaly is = cleared, this 3.4 eV is to be regarded as the most reliable limit for = the electron neutrino mass." Maybe they should say instead "the mass = induced by neutrino interaction in 3-space." This may be coincidental, or it may all be fitting together... in the = big picture. ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C37771.7A65AF40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On a recent re-reading of "The Fourth Dimension - A guide to the = higher=20 universes." - by Rudy Rucker, a few ideas relating to free-energy = were=20 suggested by the implications of a 4-space universe.
 
To backtrack a bit - In the 1800's a fellow named Edwin Abbott = wrote a=20 classic fantasy (but scientifically serious) called "Flatland". Flatland = is a=20 world with only two dimensions, populated = (much like earth) with=20 squares, loops and crooked characters- who see their world differently = than we=20 do. Had Abbott known about TV, he probably would have used it as a = more=20 convenient vehicle, as his aim was merely to use some 2D=20 interchange-medium to teach the reader a few things about an unseen=20 dimension using analogy. Flatlanders are quite content with life = and they=20 dread the thought of another dimension, but more than a few humans have = the same=20 insecurity problem. And some scientists may be the most insecure of all = with the=20 implications of 4-space...
 
If it ever happens, in our "enlightened future" that a = source of=20 free-energy... call it OU energy...or call it ZPE...or = whatever, is=20 discovered, then it goes without saying that many of the prior=20 breakthroughs leading up to its acceptance will have to be forced upon = the=20 science-elite and other self-appointed experts, who will end up = looking=20 like little more than local-yokels in the big picture, just a step-up = from=20 flatlanders. In other words, even if ZPE does indeed become a = future=20 economic resource, it is one which presently exists, both literally = and=20 figuratively, on the *interface* of our 3-space with a more general = reality...=20 call it 4-space. The term "our 3-space" refers to the normal = localized=20 sensory appreciation of work-a-day reality... and I will attempt to = explain an=20 "entry-level" concept of 4-space with several analogies (BTW = 4-space,=20 unlike the so-called fourth dimension, is NOT time related, at = least not in=20 the early fractals, the ones that we can grasp thus far).
 
First, try to visualize "dimensions" not as giant steps but as a=20 gradualized progressions. The analogy here can be found in the art-form = known as=20 "bas-relief".
 
Bas-relief is more than two dimensions aesthetically, but not = quite=20 three... so, let's say that bas-relief can be quantified to be = a=20 "fractional dimension," say a 3.1D fractal.  A fractal is defined = as a=20 fractional-dimension, which is to say - a "slice" of reality that is = described=20 mathematically, more so than in sensory terms, although there is a great = deal of=20 sensory information to be derived from "animating" a fractal.
 
Just as going from two dimensions into three dimensions can be done = in=20 gradualized steps; likewise, going from three into four can be = gradualized and=20 analyzed mathematically and mentally. This allows for the possibility = that some=20 early steps of 4-space which are hidden to most of us now, are so close = to the=20 far-end of our 3-space horizon that we can easily get a glimpse. =
 
When we discover certain energy "anomalies" by experiment, for = instance, we can build on that data and incorporate the mathematics of = 4-space=20 to thereby learn how to induce an increasing 4-space presence. We = might say=20 that the Hubble telescope is a window into early 4-space, just as the = electron=20 microscope is a window back into 1-space, which... ta-da .... may = actually be=20 circuitously connected somehow = to 4-space... That "connectivity"=20 is the key feature of 4-space. The advanced field of=20 Supersymmetry tells us there are many  transparent extra = dimensions,=20 said to be "enfolded"... but another way of verbalizing this theory is = to looked=20 at each of these extra dimensions as far-fractals of 4-space that=20 eventually colligate into 1-space.
 
The second analogy is a little more complex, but if you can follow = it, is=20 rather expository. It came up on the hydrino forum (for another reason). = The=20 analogy is elegantly described by one of Mills' chief antagonists, Nora = Baron.=20 As borrowed for use here, the analogy becomes a little deeper = because=20 one should consider it on two levels, just as Rucker invites = us to do=20 in his book. The first level is explicative but the second = level is by=20 analogy, and this analogy can help explain the = almost-unexplainable,=20 i.e. the transition from 3-space to 4-space.

Paraphrased or quoted from Nora Baron:
"When mathematicians say "2-sphere" or "2D sphere" what they mean = is an=20 object that is like the surface of a ball in 3-dimensional=20 space. Technically it exists in only two dimensions, but it is = "warped" by=20 an outside independent influence.
 
For example, the set of points in 3-space that satisfy the=20 equation

       x^2 + y^2 + z^2 =3D = 1

is called a 2-sphere.

You might think, "Gee, that looks = like a=20 3-dimensional object to me.  It certainly is
not contained in a = flat=20 2-dimensional plane. It has a big bulge, a curvature." That = is
certainly=20 true.  It is called a 2-sphere for two reasons:
 
(1) It can be parametrized by only two coordinates: essentially = longitude=20 and latitude.  As on the surface of the earth, those two = coordinates are=20 sufficiently to locate every point. 
 
(2) If you looked at the 2-sphere with a very high powered = microscope, the=20 curvature becomes almost imperceptible, and what you are looking at = resembles a=20 flat plane.  It is what mathematicians call a "2-manifold".  =
 
The surface of a smooth torus (donut) is also a 2-manifold, and = there are=20 many others.  When you look at them "locally", i.e., under a = microscope,=20 they look like a flat plane.

As on the surface of a globe, you = measure=20 distances between points by joining them with great circles. You = probably know=20 about great circles from hearing about airline routes. For example, the = great=20 circle route from, say, Seattle to London does not go along a latitude=20 line.  Instead it goes far north, over Canada. That route is = substantially=20 shorter than the latitude route.

Great circles are = shortest-distance=20 "lines" In general shortest-distance lines are called geodesics. On a = flat=20 plane, the geodesics are just straight lines. Of course, the actual = *shortest*=20 route from Seattle to London is not a great circle. It is a straight = line in=20 3-dimensional space, going straight through the earth. Airplanes = can't take=20 that route because it would involve burrowing a tunnel hundreds of miles = below=20 the earth's surface. But remember what a "Klein" bottle looks = like?

Now=20 suppose you are thinking of a 2-dimensional sphere, like the surface of = the=20 earth.  Does it have zero thickness? Or is it hollow, = like a=20 balloon but with a vacuum on the inside? Take two points, P and Q, on = that=20 sphere. You can join them by a geodesic on the sphere, or you can join = them by a=20 straight line. 
 
The straight line is shorter.  If the two points have electric = charge=20 (think of it as if Seattle and London have electric charge), there is a = force=20 between those two points. Since there is nothing but vacuum between = them, I=20 think that force is computed as proportional to the inverse of the = square of the=20 straight-line distance between them.  That is Coulomb's law. The = force=20 between points acts not along geodesic curves, but along ordinary = straight=20 lines.  That is exactly what Coulomb's law specifies.
 
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<= /DIV>
Now can you transpose that bit of insight relating to=20 the 2D=3D=3D>3D transition, from=20 3D=3D=3D>4D?
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D
 
There will be points on the interface, i.e. the "early" 4-space=20 that can be parametrized by three coordinates.  But = unlike most=20 coordinates, these interfacial points are also gateways to another = more=20 general space that is usually hidden by its own complexity. Kind of like = a Klein=20 bottle....
 
Lets say you have experimental evidence that implies a=20 chameleon-like wave-particle which seems to travels faster than the = speed=20 of light in some experiments, yet the particle, when slowed down by = interaction=20 in any local environment, suddenly develops its own apparent mass, which = might=20 lead you to believe that either the particle has condensed or that it is = acting=20 through an intermediary to transfer some of its energy.
 
These peculiarities might suggest that when we look around us for=20 "anything" that may exist mostly in 4-space but occasionally "grazes" = our=20 3-space, and which may "seem" to be superluminal (because we don't = know all=20 the vectors) then [eureka] we find that we already have a preliminary = "handle"=20 on that object...well, at least a name, the neutrino. As such, this = particle may=20 indeed be able to "express" a mass-energy in our three-space, and may = even be=20 coerced to do so *on-demand*  perhaps, but we are just now = getting an=20 accurate look at its features.
 
Is it fair to say, then, that ZPE and the neutrino are one and = the=20 same?
 
No. But it might be accurate to say that the neutrino can and = should=20 be considered to be our most evident and well-studied subset of = ZPE. The=20 neutrino is a packet of extremely high frequency radiation which deeply = blankets=20 4-space, a packet which can interact in our 3-space = leaving=20 behind certain lingering mass-energy features... just as = previously in our=20 universe, other packets of high frequency radiation (later to be = known=20 as "quarks") condensed out of 4-space providing us=20 with all that we consider to be "normal" mass.
 
Approximately 7.5 billion solar neutrinos per cm^2 arrive on earth = at=20 lightspeed from 3D solar coordinates every second, and perhaps many = times that=20 amount arrive from other vectors in 4-space superluminally. Most of = these are=20 transparent to 3-space and zoom through us, unperturbed, but is there = any=20 possibility of engineering a kind of antenna? Remember, even if the mass = of a=20 neutrino is small, when they are moving at light speed their energy is = greater=20 than all the nukes every constructed.
 
And that's just for one neutrino. Unless....er..... Einstein was = wrong=20 ! ;-)
 
There are lots of implications to a neutrino-centered=20 4-space visualization of free-energy that are uncharted, yet to be = worked=20 out, and perhaps this long-winded rambling has helped some = experimenter=20 grasp a direction in which to trek out on....if not, try to find = Rucker's book=20 or a more technical one entitled:  "Beyond the Third Dimension" by = Thomas=20 Banchoff ...
 
Jones
 
 
BTW. If I had to take an educated guess as to the mass-energy = equivalent of=20 the neutrino interaction, it would be pegged at 3.4 eV, but I do not = believe=20 that this is the mass-energy of the neutrino, per se. First, it is = clear=20 that this amount of energy does not have a particularly high = frequency=20 equivalent: it is UV - almost in the visible range. However, in the = process of=20 dropping into 3-space we are probably seeing just a figment, or a = remnant,=20 of the real object, a secondary derivative of a much higher = frequency...kind of=20 like electrical induction operating on an interfacial particle (or = perhaps two=20 linked interfacial particles).
 
If I had to suggest an experimental method to capture or = induce some=20 of the neutrino energy from universal 4-space into our 3-space, it = would be=20 to "stress" the simplest of all elements, the hydrogen atom, = thereby using=20 it as a kind of  3-space=3D=3D>1-space=20 antenna....but probably neither the hydrogen molecule nor = the=20 bare proton will work using this technique - it must be the H monoatomic = form,=20 which is either compressed or expanded outside its normal size range. = This is=20 because the volume inside of the atom's electron-sphere is of a = very=20 important 4-spatial size (it is not "hollow" in 4-space but contains an=20 exact number of virtual particles). Every other atom in our = universe is=20 based on this unit of 4-space and neutrino transparency = probably depends on=20 it too.
 
It goes without saying that there may be any number of ways to = "skin a=20 cat" (i.e. to "stress" atomic hydrogen) such as in a confining metal = matrix=20 ...or with a catalytic electrochemical "hole"... in either = case, thereby=20 forcing atomic H to interact with the neutrino = flux....BTW one of=20 the more common spectra found in sonoluminescence is around 365 = nm... which=20 is 3.4 eV. One way to test this is simple. Load up some Pd with hydrogen = - you=20 don't need deuterium - and get two precision thermocouples. Measure an = unloaded=20 sample against a loaded sample for several days - there should be a = small but=20 persistent temperature gain in the loaded sample, even with no applied=20 current.
 
That particular mass-energy, 3.4 eV is intimately connected, = not=20 just to hydrogen, but perhaps to a more general hidden universal = 4-space=20 construct - one that may link-up with hydrogen to form = that *double-linked=20 interface* - and it is called positronium.
 
The electron and positron, when bound together, have a "decay" = energy=20 of 6.8 eV which could provide two 3.4 eV pairs, which themselves may or = may not=20 be actual photons. Perhaps the pairs are first, leptons, which may then = decay=20 further into photons. Could 4-space be filled with "virtual" = positronium,=20 the properties of which "make" the electron on every hydrogen atom orbit = the=20 nucleus at a specific distance, and then actually work to prevent the = electron=20 from being captured by that proton? Is that what "aether" really is = ("virtual"=20 positronium) ?
 
There are two ongoing experiments measuring directly the mass of = the=20 electron neutrino. Both Mainz and Troitsk groups study the beta decay of = tritium.... Fitting a monoenergetic line at the endpoint, they obtain an = upper=20 limit 3.4 eV...."Until the origin of the endpoint anomaly is cleared, = this 3.4=20 eV is to be regarded as the most reliable limit for the electron = neutrino mass."=20 Maybe they should say instead "the mass induced by neutrino interaction = in=20 3-space."
 
This may be coincidental, or it may all be fitting together... in = the big=20 picture.
 
------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C37771.7A65AF40-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 10 09:05:48 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA23989; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 09:00:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 09:00:55 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 12:00:05 EDT Subject: Re: Is ZPE "located" in 4-space? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_a3.48a48297.2c90a485_boundary" X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10693 Resent-Message-ID: <"H2Q5G2.0.es5.rgqN_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51817 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_a3.48a48297.2c90a485_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/10/03 11:35:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonesb9@pacbell.net writes: > To backtrack a bit - In the 1800's a fellow named Edwin Abbott wrote a > classic fantasy (but scientifically serious) called "Flatland". Flatland is a > world with only two dimensions, populated > > > Chapter with pictures and equations for volums and surface areas of 1,2.3, > and 4 dimensions. > > Chapter 9 > > Frank Znidarsic --part1_a3.48a48297.2c90a485_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 9/10/03 11:35:52 AM Eastern Dayligh= t Time, jonesb9@pacbell.net writes:


To backtrack a bit - In the 180= 0's a fellow named Edwin Abbott wrote a classic fantasy (but scientifically=20= serious) called "Flatland". Flatland is a world with only two dimensions, po= pulated
<snip>

Chapter with pictures and equations for volums and surface areas of 1,2.3, a= nd 4 dimensions.

Chapter 9=

Frank Znidarsic


 --part1_a3.48a48297.2c90a485_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 10 11:05:19 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA01332; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 11:02:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 11:02:47 -0700 Message-ID: <008401c377c5$03b8a100$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <001701c3774c$3a185980$ed09bf3f@computer> Subject: Re: Intrinsic OU Heat Effects in Salt Water Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 10:57:31 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id LAA01284 Resent-Message-ID: <"MP2Cp2.0.fK.7TsN_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51818 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" > Water auto-ionizes: 2 H2O <---> (H3O+)aq + (OH-)aq, and can absorb O2 gas (2.3 cm^3 per 100 mlliliters H2O even at 100 deg C) and the (O2-) ions from the atmosphere. > An experiment was conducted to see if salt water would absorb (O2-) ions and produce heat due to hydration effects in the water. [snip] This could be described as a redox chemical exchange which, as it turns out, appear to be not truly reversible thermodynamically, especially when catalyzed....could it not? But there is another (more complex) explanation...sorry, Occam... ;-} Note that with the hydrated hydronium ion (H3O+)aq there are three protons to share two molecular electrons plus one occasional aqueous electron, and it is VERY likely that the identity of these shift constantly, so it is never the same hydrogen which is the "odd man out". The implication is that, for some brief time period, there is an instantaneous "stressed" hydrogen atom present...by "stressed" it is meant one in which the electron orbital has been either compressed, or in this case, expanded far beyond its normal size. ...is that hydrogen atom, then, the previously forecast (by a few hours) hypothetical structure which may act as an antenna for ZPE? Although the experiment itself shows only a tiny bit of putative OU, it lasts over a rather long period, and it appears to be repeatable (I am getting some similar results to Fred) and there may be certain ways to amplify the effect. Such as follows....(paraphrased from an earlier message): Perhaps many who came onto the vortex newsgroup looking for alternative energy ideas, at least in the early days, originally were led to it by an interest in the Ranque Hilsch vortex tube, and/or the related idea of an analog Maxwell's demon. More than a few tinkerers have tried to apply magnetic fields or electric fields and other enhancements to the vortex tube but w/o much success. The Ranque Hilsch vortex tube is one of the few simple heat amplification devices that is capable of separating a stream of gas into higher and lower temperature components. It could have increased conversion-efficiency or even Maxwell's overunity potential, when combined with "natural" thermodynamic imbalance, if "pumping costs" were not so excessive, which they usually are. But another related example of a potential physical effect that could be useful in the future of high efficiency conversion of low grade heat into more useful forms of energy (electricity or ionizing radiation), whether it be OU or not, is as close as your kitchen. Take a cast-iron skillet and place it on the stove, turn on the heat and also the cold water on kitchen sink, then hold the handle of the skillet until it gets to be uncomfortably hot- and then immediately remove it and place the other end under the faucet. This "heat compression" effect will give you a visceral appreciation for the Mallove's title "Fire from Ice" or as an alternative, try the occasional microwaved TV dinner that was not prepared in accordance with the instructions. It turns out that Francis Bacon (1561-1626) in Novum Organum was the first observer that I can find that referenced the heat-compression effect, an effect in which temperature is raised by instantaneous proximity to cold. That is by restricting normal phonon motion. And after 400 + years there is still precious little about it on the internet. However, a closer look at the Sterling engine and its surprising efficiency seems to indicate that the heat-compression effect might be involved in the mechanics of this engine, but I have never seen this mentioned. BTW, another factoid that is hardly ever referenced in automobile engine thermodynamics is the "shockwave" effect, where a certain amount of acceleration has been converted into "jerk", and presumably its kinetic energy transfer to the piston has been thereby increased to some degree. I mention this because in the normal Sterling there is no shockwave effect, which makes it efficiency even more impressive (or else means there is no such thing as a shockwave effect). I'll throw out at least five potential ways that one might use low grade heat more efficiently to approach or exceed the Carnot limitation. First and foremost is electrochemistry (and its subset, ionization/recombination). Fuel cells provide power through electrochemical oxidation of a fuel. As electrical devices, fuel cells are not restricted by Carnot limitations at all and can in theory be 100% efficient. A second approach is in the shockwave effect and a third is in the heat compression effect, both mentioned above. But neither of these seems applicable to extremely low-grade heat. The fourth is the Ettinghouse effect. When an electric current flows across the lines of force of a magnetic field, an electromotive force is observed which is at right angles to both the primary current and the magnetic field. A temperature gradient is observed which has the opposite direction to the Hall voltage. The last is the Nernst Effect. When heat flows across lines of magnetic force, there is observed an electromotive force in the mutually perpendicular direction. Permanent magnets are the OU experiments best option because they require no energy input. OTOH there is no more disappointing area of research...totally littered with failed attempt...so far. Plus, as Aspden has observed: "I am mindful that the use of magnets as a catalyst to deflect charged ions from a heated gaseous flow so as to generate electrical output (MHD, the magneto-hydrodynamic technology which had its heyday in the 1960s) does comply with the Carnot efficiency limitations. That is because the gas molecules enter as input at a high temperature and all leave as output through an exhaust at lower temperature." However, I am not so sure that Aspen's reservation applies to a situation where a gaseous medium is recirculated without the necessity of a temperature drop. Can adiabatic processes every become a positive feature of an experiment, rather than a negative? At any rate, it has occurred to me that IF there are some redox chemical exchanges that are not truly reversible, especially when catalyzed, and if those exchanges involve ions, then voila...you are on the right track. You can use your magnetic field in a sealed environment and not worry about the necessity of a heat-sink. Well, at least it is an idea worth pursuing.... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 10 12:32:54 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA04103; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 12:28:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 12:28:00 -0700 From: hamdix@iris.com.tr Message-Id: <200309101904.WAA02744@rainbow.verisoft.com.tr> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 19:04:11 -0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: O3 smell from high humidity air X-Mailer: TWIG 2.2.3 Cc: hamdix@verisoft.com.tr Resent-Message-ID: <"UGMXF3.0.s_._itN_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51819 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hello, While experimenting with coils at 1997, I had obtained strong ozone smell from a coil circuit without visible arcing and without hiss in hot summer days and nights with high humidity. How may an electromagnetic excitation with low input power ~25mW) could produce O3 or something like this in such a condition? Regards, hamdi ucar ________________________________________________________________ Iris Webmail - http://webmail.iris.com.tr From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 10 15:58:52 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA20131; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 15:56:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 15:56:52 -0700 From: "Robert Brady" To: Subject: RE: Is ZPE "located" in 4-space? Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 15:56:44 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c377ee$d067ef20$af7dfea9@D4FT3Z01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C377B4.24091720" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <004c01c377ac$273a0560$8837fea9@cpq> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"sHhLt1.0.Tw4.pmwN_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51820 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C377B4.24091720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mr. Jones, You said: "Approximately 7.5 billion solar neutrinos per cm^2 arrive on earth at lightspeed from 3D solar coordinates every second, and perhaps many times that amount arrive from other vectors in 4-space superluminally. Most of these are transparent to 3-space and zoom through us, unperturbed, but is there any possibility of engineering a kind of antenna? Remember, even if the mass of a neutrino is small, when they are moving at light speed their energy is greater than all the nukes every constructed. " I believe: Any mass is the antenna you want to find. The resultant from that antenna is gravity. Bob Brady ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C377B4.24091720 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Mr. Jones,
 
You said:
 
"Approximately 7.5 billion = solar=20 neutrinos per cm^2 arrive on earth at lightspeed from 3D solar = coordinates every=20 second, and perhaps many times that amount arrive from other vectors in = 4-space=20 superluminally. Most of these are transparent to 3-space and zoom = through us,=20 unperturbed, but is there any possibility of engineering a kind of = antenna?=20 Remember, even if the mass of a neutrino is small, when they are moving = at light=20 speed their energy is greater than all the nukes every = constructed. "
 
I believe:
 
Any mass is the antenna you want = to=20 find.  The resultant from that antenna is gravity.
 
Bob = Brady
 
 
= ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C377B4.24091720-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 10 16:18:00 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA06442; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 16:16:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 16:16:44 -0700 Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:13:39 +1000 From: Robin van Spaandonk Subject: It's already here To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: Organization: Improving MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Resent-Message-ID: <"r8Ph23.0.Za1.R3xN_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51821 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, In keeping with the list topic => WO0203417. :) Regards, R. van Spaandonk When you are counting the dead, remember who voted for the man that made it all possible. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 10 18:15:34 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA16716; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 18:12:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 18:12:00 -0700 X-Peer-Info: remote-ip 199.125.98.213 local-ip 199.125.85.40 local-name mercury.mv.net User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 21:10:42 -0700 Subject: Cold Fusion/New Energy Information for Howard Dean (and others) From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA16650 Resent-Message-ID: <"4BPyf2.0.154.VlyN_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51822 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear "Serena Muse" (At the Howard Dean campaign in New Hampshire), Thank you for your call and for listening to my impassioned plea -- 15 years of blood and sweat were behind it. I'll try very hard to be at the Howard Dean rally in Concord, NH this Friday at 5:15 pm -- tape-recorder in hand. I am not a Dean supporter. I will be coming as Editor-in-Chief of Infinite Energy Magazine. My purpose will be to ask Dean what HE intends to do and say during the campaign about the "Heavy Watergate" scandal, given that the Clinton and TWO Bush administrations have BOTH ignored this matter of overarching importance: the deliberate neglect and attack by DoE and paradigm-paralyzed academia against the confirmed energy source known colloquially as "cold fusion." This energy source is more scientifically referred to as "low-energy nuclear reactions" (LENR), because the precise theoretical understanding of the energy source is not yet agreed on by investigators, though many good theories abound -- that is usually the situation when profound new discoveries are made. Thank you for your efforts to brief Dr. Dean in advance of the rally. I am reasonably sure he will give an unsatisfactory response, after all he IS a politician, whose instincts are not to rock the boat on what he may perceive could be a danger to him: questioning academia, wherein much of his support may come. But here is his one best chance to show that he really is an independent spirit. (His soul mate Dennis Kucinich already failed the test by not contacting our office when he was in New Hampshire -- after his minions in California tried to get him to take notice. New Energy Foundation, Inc. is a non-profit corporation and must be strictly non-partisan.) Dean's response -- if I get to ask him the question -- will be widely circulated by our magazine and associated supporters. My commentary on Sharon Begley's Wall Street Journal article (Sept. 5, 2003) follows this note. Also, please find my brief editorial about the Tenth International Conference on Cold Fusion, which was held in Cambridge, MA August 24-29, 2003 near and at MIT -- which Ms. Begley attended. I also append the text of the Begley article, which is NOT on the WSJ web site. Finally, be sure to examine my "Memorandum to the White House" -- which was prepared at the request of the Clinton Administration in early 2000 and then deliberately ignored by Clinton et al, as I told you. Its text is readily accessible on our web site www.infinite-energy.com. In it you will read what Bill Clinton said about cold fusion in January 1992 right here in Concord, NH. He knew a lot about it, how it had been abused by DoE -- but still DID nothing! There is compendious original technical information as well posted in the specialized web site www.lenr-canr.org Candidate Dean will be asked whether he will do what I asked both Presidents Clinton and Bush to do in the Executive Summary of my Memorandum -- *to say that he is interested in the matter and that he WILL investigate it*. A simple yes or no answer will do. And, of course, I stand ready to brief him here in New Hampshire (or in Vermont) on this critical topic at a time of his choosing. Good wishes, Dr. Eugene F. Mallove (Author of "Fire from Ice: Searching for the Truth Behind the Cold Fusion Furor," John Wiley and Sons, 1991) New Energy Foundation, Inc. Infinite Energy Magazine P.O. Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 Ph: 603-485-4700 Fx: 603-485-4710 www.infinite-energy.com **** Sharon Begley's "Science Journal" column in today's Wall Street Journal (Friday, Sept 5, 2003, p.B1) is a commentary, not a news account, about the Tenth International Conference on Cold Fusion (ICCF10), which was held in Cambridge, MA Aug 24-29, 2003. Ms. Begley attended ICCF10 for the first two days of the conference proper -- 9/25-26. Her piece is bannered: "Cold Fusion Isn't Dead, It's Just Withering from Scientific Neglect." Don¹t look for detailed understanding of what went on at ICCF10. It is not there, so in some sense this column, though we very much appreciate its appearance at all, in effect does for cold fusion what the columnist is lamenting! Ms. Begley writes: "What these claims need is critical scrutiny by skeptics. That is how science normally functions. But in Cold Fusion, it isn't. And that's the worst pathology of all." At another point she writes, "But the real pathology is the breakdown of the normal channels of scientific communication, with no scientists outside the tight-knit cold fusion tribe bothering to scrutinize its claims." Indeed it is a terrible pathology that scientific papers on cold fusion/low-energy nuclear reactions are rejected outright -- WITHOUT REVIEW -- at publications such as Science, Nature and Physical Review. But science journalists must also be faulted -- not just the obstructing scientists. Science journalists should be holding the establishment's feet to the fire -- requiring Establishment mouthpieces to provide *detailed scientific responses* -- not just bigoted blather-- to the on-going, highly successful cold fusion/LENR experiments. What happened to the "good old days" at the Wall Street Journal when Jerry Bishop (now retired) felt it the duty of science journalism to report the FACTS -- what was reported at a particular conference and "to hell" with what the critics were saying, though these were appropriately given their space in Bishop's exemplary reporting. I hope that The Wall Street Journal wakes up -- but don't hold your breath. Bishop had told me before he retired that the Journal editors were holding him back from more extensive coverage. Still, we are grateful that an intelligent reporter, Sharon Begley, attended some of the conference and put her finger on the central problem facing the CF/LENR field. For this, we thank her. For those who might be surprised by the dearth of information on the conference in the Wall Street Journal coverage -- they perhaps expected a more extensive news account<- below I offer my editorial for Infinite Energy #51 (Sept.-Oct. 2003), which providing some highlights. Dr. Eugene F. Mallove New Energy Foundation, Inc. Infinite Energy Magazine P.O. Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 Ph: 603-485-4700 Fx: 603-485-4710 www.infinite-energy.com **** ICCF10: A Message from the Front -- Editorial, IE#51 - Sept./Oct. 2003 by Dr. Eugene Mallove Editor in Chief, Infinite Energy Magazine www.infinite-energy.com As we send this issue of Infinite Energy to our printing company in Manchester, New Hampshire in early September, we have just returned from the exhilarating Tenth International Conference on Cold Fusion (ICCF10) in Cambridge, Massachusetts ‹ very near and also at MIT. Yes, there was an historic set of excess-heat-producing cold fusion demonstrations at Prof. Peter L. Hagelstein¹s offices at MIT in the Dept. of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science! There is a staggering amount of news about cold fusion and low-energy nuclear reactions (LENR) to report from the conference ‹a lot to digest even for a veteran attendee of ICCF¹s. Time and space do not allow a lengthy report in this Infinite Energy, but it is likely that by the time you receive this issue I will have posted a special review of ICCF10 on our web site www.infinite-energy.com. Of course, there will be a full hard-copy report in the next issue of the magazine (out in November), and readers should also consult the material being posted on www.lenr-canr.org. Infinite Energy¹s non-profit New Energy Foundation, Inc. plans to offer soon one or more DVD¹s that will highlight important conference lectures ‹ and possibly a set of DVD¹s covering the entire conference. For now and to whet your appetite for more information, here are some of the high points to be taken from ICCF10: € During ICCF10, Dr. Mitchell Swartz¹s Fleischmann/Pons-type electrolytic palladium Phusor/low electrolyte conductance heavy water/platinum cell performed flawlessly in Prof. Hagelstein¹s lab at MIT. Its excess power ranged from 167% to 267% as Dr. Swartz altered the experimental conditions. This excess heat, as measured by his precision calorimeter, persisted from Sunday August 24 to August 30, longer than ICCF10 itself. The excess heat was interrupted on the last day only to bring the equipment back to Wellesley, MA‹ otherwise it would have continued much longer. €Prof. John Dash of the physics department at Portland State University in Oregon and his summer high school student interns also put on historic demonstrations of excess heat at Prof. Hagelstein¹s lab. They used simple but effective calorimetric apparatus, which allowed observers to check the level of excess heat for themselves. This proves that even high-school students can be more effective on the frontiers of science than the US Department of Energy and the 1,000-plus MIT professors who did not attend ICCF10. Only two MIT professors attended ‹ Prof. Hagelstein and ex-Prof. Keith Johnson, both of whom have been involved in the field since its early days. (This, despite the 150 to 200 ICCF10 posters that I had earlier placed around MIT and a prominent ad in the Boston Globe which Prof. Hagelstein paid for from his personal funds.) Only a few MIT students showed up ‹outnumbered by the high-school students in Prof. Dash¹s group from Portland State University in Oregon. (It should be noted that both the Boston Globe and the Boston Herald chose to boycott the conference, despite having been repeatedly alerted about its significance.) €What is now being called the Letts-Cravens Effect‹ excess heat stimulated by laser light irradiation of cold fusion electrolytic cell cathodes‹has now been independently observed by three outside groups: Dr. Michael McKubre of SRI International, Dr. Edmund Storms in New Mexico, and Dr. Mitchell Swartz in Wellesley, Massachusetts. This phenomenon, you may recall, was the subject of the ³Fire from Water² cover story in the last issue of IE. Low-level laser light power is input and a huge excess power excess emerges, for example: 30 milliwatts input, 1 watt output (a 30-fold multiplication of input power). This is evidently a highly repeatable effect‹one that has the potential of breaking though into numerous other labs around the world. € Dr. James Patterson and his colleagues from Sarasota, Florida revealed a stunningly simple, robust and ingenious gas-phase cold fusion reactor that has produced excess heat for months on end. Full details will be provided to the public in the near term; he is not seeking patent protection at this point. €Helium-4 correlated with excess heat has been observed now in a solid-state LENR device by a laboratory effort sponsored by the Italian government. €The astonishing nuclear transmutation experiment carried out by the Iwamura group at Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Advanced Technology Division, which was reported in Infinite Energy (No.47, pp.14-18) and later published in the Japanese Journal of Applied Physics has now been reproduced by the A. Takahashi group at Osaka University. In this experiment, deuterium (heavy hydrogen) gas is made to flow through a palladium membrane onto which another element, such as cesium or strontium, has been deposited. With no energy input (other than the pressure of the gas) the deposited element transmutes to another element. For example, cesium declines and the rare earth element praesodymium appears and grows. Or, strontium declines and molybdenum grows. The term ³grow² is appropriate, since to make the new elements, it is necessary for the starting nuclei to ³absorb² four deuterium nuclei! Obviously, this flies completely in the face of every cannon of basic chemistry, but the evidence for the result is now overwhelming. It is nothing short of modern alchemy. €Finally, we are delighted to report that a company in Israel, Energetics Technologies Limited, which began its multi-million dollar cold fusion effort only two years ago, has already achieved excess heat in a variety of processes. Funded by investors in the United States, the fifteen-member staff of Energetics Technologies Limited is aiming directly at the commercialization of the technology. The leader of the effort Dr. Arik El-Boher made a stunning presentation at ICCF10, which caused many jaws to drop. There is much more, but I need to end these highlights. Though the ³cold fusion war² has not yet been won‹ and it could still be lost, the field seems to have picked itself up with the remarkable turning point of ICCF10. ICCF11 will be in Marseilles, France in October 2004. ********************************* Text of the Begley article from the Wall Street Journal (Sept. 5, 2003, page B1) Cold Fusion Isn't Dead, It's Just Withering from Scientific Neglect by Sharon Begley "Well, were here, " said physicist Peter Hagelstein to the 150 scientists at the 10th International Conference on Cold Fusion in Cambridge, Mass., last week. "Many people in the scientific community feel we should be shot." That, actually would be a big step up for the beleaguered community of cold fusioneers. It has been 14 years since two little-known electrochemists announced, at the infamous news conference on March 23, 1989, what sounded like the biggest physics breakthrough since Enrico Fermi produced a nuclear chain reaction on a squash court in Chicago. Using a tabletop setup, Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann, of the University of Utah, said they had induced deuterium nuclei to fuse inside metal electrodes, producing measurable quantities of heat. (Deuterium, aka heavy hydrogen, has one proton and one neutron in its nucleus.) Although nuclear fusion is supposed to be impossible at temperatures much below those in the sun or a hydrogen bomb, the Utah duo said they had managed the feat at room temperature. That was the opening bell for one of the craziest periods in science. Cold fusion, if real, promised to solve the world's energy problems forever. (There is enough deuterium in sea water to provide electricity for millennia). Scientists around the world dropped what they were doing to try to replicate the astounding claim. Some did, most didn't. When a US Department of Energy investigation concluded in November 1989 that cold fusion was a mirage born of bungled measurements and wishful thinking, the field become a pariah. Yet the cold fusioneers persist. In paper after paper last week, scientists reported that when a metal, usually palladium, absorbs huge amounts of deuterium into its atomic lattice, the result is more heat than plain old electrochemistry can explain, as well as particles thought to be by-products of nuclear fusion. Some of the most extensive work has been at the Naval REsearch Laboratory, whose scientists found both excess heat and a telltale sign of fusion, particles of helium-4, in dozens of experiments. And Michael McKubre of SRI International, Menlo Park, Calif., is still, after hundreds of thousands of experiment-hours and $4 million, getting more heat from his cold-fusion cells than can be explained conventionally. Some of the most intriguing research is by physicist Steven Jones of Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah. Several years before Prof. Pons and Prof. Fleischmann, he reported low-temperature nuclear fusion, but virtually no excess heat. That made his cold fusion a big fizzle as an energy source, but much more acceptable to science. ":The question I get more than any other is 'Are you still doing this?," says Prof. Jones. "The answer is yes, and what we are seeing is very difficult to explain outside of cold fusion. The repeatability of these experiments now approaches 80%." Although he still detects no excess heat, the telltale signs of nuclear fusion "make us conclude that we are seeing new physics." Although the persistence of the cold fusioneers makes skeptics shake their heads, proponents see it differently. "If there were no effects and it were just experimental error," says Prof. Hagelstein, associate professor of electrical engineering and computer science at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, "we should have figured out that by now I don't think there is any doubt about the existence of nuclear anomalies. Excess heat might be real, too." Right about here, I would cite physicists explaining why Prof. Hagelstein is wrong. But I can't. Almost no scientist outside the ostracized community listens to its claims anymore, much less critiques them.. It has been years since a major physics journal published a paper on cold fusion. Prof. Hagelstein invited Some of the original critics to last week's meeting; none showed. Cold fusion today is a prime example of pathological science, but not because its adherents are delusional. Yes, it's disconcerting that many of the experiments inexplicably and unpredictably stop (and start) producing heat. But the real pathology is the breakdown of the normal channels of scientific communication, with no scientists outside the tight-knit cold-fusion tribe bothering to scrutinize its claims. "If you 'know' that cold fusion is impossible, then you don't have to pay attention to these results," says Prof. Hagelstein, an award-winning DOE physicist before being ostracized for his work in the theory of cold fusion. "The initial criticism was that people needed to do the [heat measurements] right, but now that some groups have spent millions of dollars doing just that, the critics still won't read the papers." I, for one, would love to hear smart physicists explain why the excess heat from the deuterium-filled palladium reflects not nuclear fusion bu t the release of mechanical energy - sort of like letting go of a stretched spring. I'd love to see a smart critique of a 2002 paper by Japanese scientists, published in a Japanese physics journal that few American scientists see, describing (shades of medieval alchemists) the transmutation of elements through cold fusion. What these claims need is critical scrutiny by skeptics. That's how science normally functions. But in cold fusion, it isn't. And that's the worst pathology of all. (You can e-mail Sharon at sciencejournal@wsj.com) ******** Copyright The Wall Street Journal From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 11 06:34:51 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA26269; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 06:32:21 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 06:32:21 -0700 (PDT) From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <10d.299408c9.2c91ce67@aol.com> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:11:03 EDT Subject: off topic link providedto me by Ed Fouse To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_10d.299408c9.2c91ce67_boundary" X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10690 Resent-Message-ID: <"Scc9D2.0.LQ6.Sb7O_"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51823 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_10d.299408c9.2c91ce67_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't like to go in this direction but I found this interesting. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/ufophysics/dual/aiaareport.pdf Frank Z --part1_10d.299408c9.2c91ce67_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't like to go in this direction but I found this=20= interesting.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/ufophysics/dual/aiaareport.pdf

Frank Z --part1_10d.299408c9.2c91ce67_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 11 07:22:09 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA13422; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 07:19:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 07:19:31 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Cc: Subject: RE: Worm problems, and a fix Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 02:41:11 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"EBbRi3.0.XH3.oH8O_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51824 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hey Horace. You'll find this amusing. Here's a link to the latest security bulletin from Microsoft, concerning a bug which can allow remote users to compromise your system. http://www.microsoft.com/security/security_bulletins/ms03-039.asp The key text... ///////////////////////////////////////// Products Affected by This Update Windows NT® 4.0 Windows 2000 Windows XP Windows Server™ 2003 Products Not Affected by This Update Windows Millennium (Windows Me) Note Windows 98, Windows 98 Second Edition (SE), and Windows 95 also are not affected by this issue. However, these products are no longer supported. Users of these products are strongly encouraged to upgrade to later versions. ////////////////////////////////////////// Yup, you read that right, they are suggesting you upgrade your O/S so that you can be susceptible to the sec-hole. He he he he he... K. -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner@mtaonline.net] Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 2:16 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Worm problems, and a fix Somebody somewhere is doing a great job of worm deletion. I haven't had any worms for about 8 hours now, and almost all of the SPAM is gone too. I wonder if this is pretty much internet wide or just here in Alaska or at my ISP? A day or so ago the spam rate here got up to about 50 per hour, but the attachments were being deleted. Now there is such an utter quiet. Just a few vortex messages. I don't know who to thank, but much thanks anyway! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 11 09:26:53 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA28285; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:24:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:24:12 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 04:28:47 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Is ZPE "located" in 4-space? Resent-Message-ID: <"0UN5K1.0.qv6.h6AO_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51825 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:56 PM 9/10/3, Robert Brady wrote: >Mr. Jones, > >You said: > >"Approximately 7.5 billion solar neutrinos per cm^2 arrive on earth at >lightspeed from 3D solar coordinates every second, and perhaps many >times that amount arrive from other vectors in 4-space superluminally. >Most of these are transparent to 3-space and zoom through us, >unperturbed, but is there any possibility of engineering a kind of >antenna? Remember, even if the mass of a neutrino is small, when they >are moving at light speed their energy is greater than all the nukes >every constructed. " > >I believe: > >Any mass is the antenna you want to find. The resultant from that >antenna is gravity. > >Bob Brady If this were true the objects at the edge of the universe would experience only gravitational repulsion from the neutrinos from rest of the universe, which is located only to one side of them. They would be accelerating away at a colossal pace. This is not the case. Also, the neutrino flux, absobtion rate (by the earth) and average neutrino momentum are well known. If neutrinos accounted for gravity then this would be common knowledge. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 11 09:40:09 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA05875; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:38:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:38:11 -0700 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: Is ZPE "located" in 4-space? Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 23:35:03 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"qSHAz3.0.jR1.oJAO_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51826 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner@mtaonline.net] > Sent: Thursday, 2003 September 11 19:29 >.< > > If this were true the objects at the edge of the universe would experience Dumb question for Vorts: where (and how far from here) is the edge of the universe? and what are the defining characteristics of the edge of the universe? Do we 'fall off' if we go past the edge? > only gravitational repulsion from the neutrinos from rest of the universe, > which is located only to one side of them. They would be accelerating > away at a colossal pace. This is not the case. > > Also, the neutrino flux, absobtion rate (by the earth) and > average neutrino > momentum are well known. If neutrinos accounted for gravity then this > would be common knowledge. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 11 10:57:40 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA10443; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 10:54:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 10:54:25 -0700 Message-ID: <000d01c3788c$fe4b2d00$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: Is ZPE "located" in 4-space? Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 10:49:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id KAA10381 Resent-Message-ID: <"Xsp1g.0.5Z2.GRBO_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51827 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Dumb question for Vorts: > where (and how far from here) is the edge of the universe? > and what are the defining characteristics of the edge of the universe? > Do we 'fall off' if we go past the edge? In a 4-space universe there is no edge at all. If you depart in a straight line in any direction, eventually you will return to your starting point even though you never altered your course. Horace's remarks were presumably in regard to an open 3-space universe, which is the majority opinion, but not proven. The main reason that the neutrino is unlikely to be associated with gravity is that there is a fair amount of theory and evidence that gravity is mediated by a spin-2 massless particle and the neutrino is a 1/2 spin particle with mass. One might speculate that maybe the neutrino is half spin only after it decays or induces mass in another particle, but prior to that it is spin-2. But that too seems impossible if spin is to be conserved. For example, two spin 1/2 particles with no orbital angular momentum between them means that the parent can be either spin 0 or spin 1. In this case, however, you know the parent was spin 2, and you know the neutrino spin is 1/2 so what is the other particle? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 11 12:01:32 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA26083; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 11:58:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 11:58:29 -0700 From: "Robert Brady" To: Subject: RE: Is ZPE "located" in 4-space? Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 11:57:45 -0700 Message-ID: <001501c37896$ad0b91f0$af7dfea9@D4FT3Z01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"3gFxZ1.0.MN6.KNCO_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51828 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace, You are right about the universe expanding at an expanding rate. NASA has announce that it is the case. Remember though, that most neutrinos pass without effect. Also, you should note that mass within the unverse will appear to attact other mass because the neutrino effect would seem to push mass together by what little effect the neutrinos would have. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner@mtaonline.net] Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 5:29 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Is ZPE "located" in 4-space? At 3:56 PM 9/10/3, Robert Brady wrote: >Mr. Jones, > >You said: > >"Approximately 7.5 billion solar neutrinos per cm^2 arrive on earth at >lightspeed from 3D solar coordinates every second, and perhaps many >times that amount arrive from other vectors in 4-space superluminally. >Most of these are transparent to 3-space and zoom through us, >unperturbed, but is there any possibility of engineering a kind of >antenna? Remember, even if the mass of a neutrino is small, when they >are moving at light speed their energy is greater than all the nukes >every constructed. " > >I believe: > >Any mass is the antenna you want to find. The resultant from that >antenna is gravity. > >Bob Brady If this were true the objects at the edge of the universe would experience only gravitational repulsion from the neutrinos from rest of the universe, which is located only to one side of them. They would be accelerating away at a colossal pace. This is not the case. Also, the neutrino flux, absobtion rate (by the earth) and average neutrino momentum are well known. If neutrinos accounted for gravity then this would be common knowledge. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 11 13:04:09 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA21071; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 13:01:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 13:01:19 -0700 Message-ID: <3F60D4BC.7E5EB9DD@ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 13:02:04 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: ICCF-10 Pre Conference Seminar held? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"H8_nC2.0.995.EIDO_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51829 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: September 11, 2003 Vortex, (Jed) Dr. Miley had announced an all day pre ICCF-10 Seminar to be held on the same Conference site. It was a separate cost and presentation on various aspects of LENR experimentation. It was to be held on Sunday, the same day for registering to the ICCF-10. This was to be presented by several well known (among cfers) attendees to the Conference. Now, did this actually take place and is it to be included as part of the published Proceedings? It would be a nice addition to the LENR-CANR web site. -ak- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 11 13:16:59 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA29227; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 13:13:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 13:13:23 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030911131106.02266e80@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 13:14:08 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Subject: Re: ICCF-10 Pre Conference Seminar held? In-Reply-To: <3F60D4BC.7E5EB9DD@ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_594674125==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <"wnmOC.0.P87.XTDO_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51830 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_594674125==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Akira: It did go as planned, I was there. You may want to contact the presenters directly to see if they have their presentations available to publish. [Miley, Storms, McKubre, Dash, Hagelstein, Akito Takahashi] Please let me (Vortex) know if you get course materials.. Steve Krivit Editor and Webmaster Los Angeles, California, USA www.coldfusioninfo.com Phone: (310) 721-5919 Fax: (310) 470-8190 --=====================_594674125==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Akira:

It did go as planned, I was there.
You may want to contact the presenters directly to see if they have their presentations available to publish.
[Miley, Storms, McKubre, Dash, Hagelstein, Akito Takahashi]

Please let me (Vortex) know if you get course materials..



Steve Krivit
Editor and Webmaster
Los Angeles, California, USA
www.coldfusioninfo.com
Phone: (310) 721-5919
Fax: (310) 470-8190 --=====================_594674125==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 11 13:20:50 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA31830; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 13:17:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 13:17:17 -0700 Message-ID: <410-220039411201712250@mindspring.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: JedRothwell@mindspring.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2003.3.84.0 (Windows) From: "Jed Rothwell" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: ICCF-10 Pre Conference Seminar held? Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 16:17:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c1756e2697689efb810c017e52a7fa7ec34596a669bf71454350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: <"jwwP51.0.Gn7.DXDO_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51831 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Akira Kawasaki writes: > Dr. Miley had announced an all day pre ICCF-10 Seminar to be held on the > same Conference site. . . . > to the Conference. Now, did this actually take place and is it to be > included as part of the published Proceedings? > It would be a nice addition to the LENR-CANR web site. Yes, it was held. I asked the authors to send me presentations and/or papers. I have not heard from any of them yet. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 11 13:35:03 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA10157; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 13:33:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 13:33:01 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 12:40:19 -0800 To: From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Worm problems, and a fix Resent-Message-ID: <"o6ZWv1.0.VU2.ylDO_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51832 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:41 AM 9/11/3, Keith Nagel wrote: >Yup, you read that right, they are suggesting you upgrade >your O/S so that you can be susceptible to the sec-hole.\ In a way that's right! Upgrade to linux (for free) and add a firewall (for free 8^). > >He he he he he... Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 11 13:49:01 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA17360; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 13:45:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 13:45:45 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 12:52:58 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Is ZPE "located" in 4-space? Resent-Message-ID: <"CNOoc.0.8F4.vxDO_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51833 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:35 PM 9/11/3, explorecraft wrote: >Dumb question for Vorts: > where (and how far from here) is the edge of the universe? > and what are the defining characteristics of the edge of the universe? > Do we 'fall off' if we go past the edge? The stock answer I think is [(age of the universe)*(speed of light)-(distance to the origin of the universe)]. I think this is estimated to be roughly 15 billion light years. If anything is ever found to be beond that distance it would certainly call into question the current estimate at the age of the universe and the big bang theory. As to going beyond the edge, that is supposedly impossible because the edge moves away at the speed of light. There are plenty of possible reasons to disagree with these views commonly held by astrophysicists however. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 11 14:02:35 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA24338; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 13:58:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 13:58:56 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 13:06:16 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Is ZPE "located" in 4-space? Resent-Message-ID: <"SastQ.0.6y5.F8EO_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51834 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:57 AM 9/11/3, Robert Brady wrote: >Horace, > >You are right about the universe expanding at an expanding rate. NASA >has announce that it is the case. As far as I know that is not the case. There has merely been detected a force which is orders of magnitude less than gravity that is repulsive in nature. It has not to my knowledge even been determined if the universe will continually expand or eventually contract. If the force of gravity were purely repulsive then the acceleration at the fringes of the universe would be incredible, and the velocites of any bodies there would be for all practical purposes be at the speed of light. >Remember though, that most neutrinos pass without effect. Exactly. That is why the momenum exchange is manyh orders of magnityude too small to account for gravity. > >Also, you should note that mass within the unverse will appear to attact >other mass because the neutrino >effect would seem to push mass together by what little effect the >neutrinos would have. There is simply not enough momentum exchange there to mimic gravity ... not even close to orders of magnitude. If you have computations that inidcate otherwise it would be of much interest to see them. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 11 14:44:26 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA27024; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 14:41:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 14:41:57 -0700 Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 07:41:21 +1000 From: Robin van Spaandonk Subject: Re: It's already here - PAY ATTENTION! In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <3sq1mv059hndamieokacnfs9t43tdj7608@4ax.com> Organization: Improving MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: Resent-Message-ID: <"4vgLg2.0.8c6.amEO_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51835 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Robin van Spaandonk's message of Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:13:39 +1000: Hi, >In keeping with the list topic => WO0203417. :) A short extract:- "The experimental results of the prototype machine have been documented through instrumentation, energy balance tests, and exhaust stream analysis. The prototype machine produces temperatures in the walls of the containment vessel approaching 4,500 F (2,482 C), which is well above the temperatures that could be caused by conventional combustion of the fuels present in the plasma. The prototype reactor can generate a steady-state thermal output of up to 1 megawatt (1,000 kW) while consuming only about 1.5 to 3 liters of diesel fuel per hour. This translates into an energy balance ratio (or net energy gain) above 10 meaning that the prototype machine generates about 10 times more thermal output than the amount that would be generated by conventional combustion of the fuels including the energy in the laser and the high-voltage supply. " [snip] Regards, R. van Spaandonk When you are counting the dead, remember who voted for the man that made it all possible. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 11 16:15:25 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA21555; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 16:13:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 16:13:33 -0700 Message-ID: <3F60F4F8.C8E613E7@ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 16:21:30 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: ICCF-10 Pre Conference Seminar held? References: <3F60D4BC.7E5EB9DD@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"6Mucg.0.iG5.T6GO_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51836 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This was held and was well attended. However, the presentations were, in general, not in electronic format, as I requested. Eventually this information will be put on the site. However, the only part that can be posted will be the outlines. The talks were much more extensive. Ed Akira Kawasaki wrote: > September 11, 2003 > > Vortex, (Jed) > > Dr. Miley had announced an all day pre ICCF-10 Seminar to be held on the > same Conference site. It was a separate cost and presentation on various > aspects of LENR experimentation. It was to be held on Sunday, the same > day for registering to the ICCF-10. > This was to be presented by several well known (among cfers) attendees > to the Conference. Now, did this actually take place and is it to be > included as part of the published Proceedings? > It would be a nice addition to the LENR-CANR web site. > > -ak- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 11 19:02:15 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA22614; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 18:59:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 18:59:17 -0700 Message-ID: <3F6128A8.48CC24D5@ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:00:08 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: ICCF-10 Pre Conference Seminar held? References: <3F60D4BC.7E5EB9DD@ix.netcom.com> <3F60F4F8.C8E613E7@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ljXVL.0.EX5.qXIO_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51837 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sept. 11, 2003 Vortex, Now the other question is: Was Mallove of I.E. able to video archive the Seminar. Also, as I asked, is the seminar presentations to be included in the printed ICCF-10 Proceedings? -ak- Edmund Storms wrote: > This was held and was well attended. However, the presentations were, in > general, not in electronic format, as I requested. Eventually this > information will be put on the site. However, the only part that can be > posted will be the outlines. The talks were much more extensive. > > Ed > > Akira Kawasaki wrote: > > > September 11, 2003 > > > > Vortex, (Jed) > > > > Dr. Miley had announced an all day pre ICCF-10 Seminar to be held on the > > same Conference site. It was a separate cost and presentation on various > > aspects of LENR experimentation. It was to be held on Sunday, the same > > day for registering to the ICCF-10. > > This was to be presented by several well known (among cfers) attendees > > to the Conference. Now, did this actually take place and is it to be > > included as part of the published Proceedings? > > It would be a nice addition to the LENR-CANR web site. > > > > -ak- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 11 19:19:55 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA00709; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:17:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:17:44 -0700 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: It's already here - PAY ATTENTION! Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 09:14:16 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3sq1mv059hndamieokacnfs9t43tdj7608@4ax.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"5pOQX.0.-A.8pIO_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51838 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sounds interesting, but where can we get more info? > Search engine: MetaSearch Picks found 0 results. The query sent was WO0203417. > Search engine: Overture found 0 results. The query sent was WO0203417. > Search engine: MetaSearch Picks found 0 results. The query sent was WO0203417. > Search engine: Ask Jeeves found 0 results. The query sent was WO0203417. > Search engine: Teoma found 0 results. The query sent was WO0203417. > Search engine: LookSmart found 0 results. The query sent was WO0203417. > Search engine: About found 0 results. The query sent was WO0203417. > Search engine: Sprinks found 0 results. The query sent was WO0203417. > Search engine: FindWhat found 0 results. The query sent was WO0203417. > Search engine: MetaSearch Search Partner Network found 0 results. The query sent was WO0203417. > Search engine: ah-ha found 0 results. The query sent was WO0203417. > Search engine: SearchHippo.com found 0 results. The query sent was WO0203417. > Search engine: Open Directory found 0 results. The query sent was WO0203417. > Search engine: Dogpile Web Catalog found 0 results. The query sent was WO0203417. > Search engine: LookSmart Reviewed Sites found 0 results. The query sent was WO0203417. > Search engine: Kanoodle found 0 results. The query sent was WO0203417. > -----Original Message----- > From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au] > Sent: Friday, 2003 September 12 04:41 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: It's already here - PAY ATTENTION! > > > In reply to Robin van Spaandonk's message of Thu, 11 Sep 2003 > 09:13:39 +1000: > Hi, > >In keeping with the list topic => WO0203417. :) > > A short extract:- > > "The experimental results of the prototype machine have been > documented through instrumentation, energy balance tests, and > exhaust stream analysis. The prototype machine produces > temperatures in the walls of the containment vessel approaching > 4,500 F (2,482 C), which is well above the temperatures that > could be caused by conventional combustion of the fuels present > in the plasma. > > The prototype reactor can generate a steady-state thermal output > of up to 1 megawatt (1,000 kW) while consuming only about 1.5 to > 3 liters of diesel fuel per hour. This translates into an energy > balance ratio (or net energy gain) above 10 meaning that the > prototype machine generates about 10 times more thermal output > than the amount that would be generated by conventional > combustion of the fuels including the energy in the laser and the > high-voltage supply. " > > [snip] > > Regards, > > R. van Spaandonk > > When you are counting the dead, remember who voted > for the man that made it all possible. > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 11 19:45:01 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA14769; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:43:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:43:42 -0700 Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 12:41:15 +1000 From: Robin van Spaandonk Subject: Re: It's already here - PAY ATTENTION! In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: Organization: Improving MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <3sq1mv059hndamieokacnfs9t43tdj7608@4ax.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"ae2L2.0.bc3.TBJO_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51839 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to explorecraft's message of Fri, 12 Sep 2003 09:14:16 +0700: Hi, [snip] > >Sounds interesting, but where can we get more info? It's a patent number. Use the European patent database: http://ep.espacenet.com/ Regards, R. van Spaandonk When you are counting the dead, remember who voted for the man that made it all possible. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 11 20:40:12 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA14857; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 20:38:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 20:38:33 -0700 Message-ID: <3F61330F.56247DF1@ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 20:46:51 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: ICCF-10 Pre Conference Seminar held? References: <3F60D4BC.7E5EB9DD@ix.netcom.com> <3F60F4F8.C8E613E7@ix.netcom.com> <3F6128A8.48CC24D5@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"i_tzB1.0.3e3.v-JO_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51840 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Akira Kawasaki wrote: > Sept. 11, 2003 > > Vortex, > > Now the other question is: > Was Mallove of I.E. able to video archive the Seminar. No > Also, as I asked, is > the seminar presentations to be included in the printed ICCF-10 Proceedings? No plans exist to include the Short Course in the Proceedings. However, the viewgraphs will eventually be available on LENR-CANR. Ed > > > -ak- > > Edmund Storms wrote: > > > This was held and was well attended. However, the presentations were, in > > general, not in electronic format, as I requested. Eventually this > > information will be put on the site. However, the only part that can be > > posted will be the outlines. The talks were much more extensive. > > > > Ed > > > > Akira Kawasaki wrote: > > > > > September 11, 2003 > > > > > > Vortex, (Jed) > > > > > > Dr. Miley had announced an all day pre ICCF-10 Seminar to be held on the > > > same Conference site. It was a separate cost and presentation on various > > > aspects of LENR experimentation. It was to be held on Sunday, the same > > > day for registering to the ICCF-10. > > > This was to be presented by several well known (among cfers) attendees > > > to the Conference. Now, did this actually take place and is it to be > > > included as part of the published Proceedings? > > > It would be a nice addition to the LENR-CANR web site. > > > > > > -ak- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 11 20:57:48 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA23746; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 20:55:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 20:55:12 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030911205528.0228d458@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 20:56:01 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Subject: Re: ICCF-10 Pre Conference Seminar held? In-Reply-To: <3F6128A8.48CC24D5@ix.netcom.com> References: <3F60D4BC.7E5EB9DD@ix.netcom.com> <3F60F4F8.C8E613E7@ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"aE75y.0.xo5.WEKO_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51841 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Was Mallove of I.E. able to video archive the Seminar. I believe he did and has considereations to put onto a DVD collection From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 12 05:31:21 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id FAA08850; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 05:28:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 05:28:41 -0700 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: It's already here - PAY ATTENTION! Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 19:25:28 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-reply-to: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"JYsy_1.0.4A2.vlRO_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51842 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: 'vaporware' just doesn;t quite describe it: Koloc's Plasmaks http://www.neoteric-research.org/ http://www.prometheus2.net/ > -----Original Message----- > From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au] > Sent: Friday, 2003 September 12 09:41 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: It's already here - PAY ATTENTION! > > > In reply to explorecraft's message of Fri, 12 Sep 2003 09:14:16 +0700: > Hi, > [snip] > > > > >Sounds interesting, but where can we get more info? > > It's a patent number. Use the European patent database: > > http://ep.espacenet.com/ > > > Regards, > > R. van Spaandonk > > When you are counting the dead, remember who voted > for the man that made it all possible. > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 12 07:23:19 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA21461; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 07:20:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 07:20:34 -0700 X-Peer-Info: remote-ip 199.125.98.194 local-ip 199.125.85.40 local-name mercury.mv.net User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 10:19:26 -0700 Subject: Re: ICCF-10 Pre Conference Seminar held? From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "vortex l eskimo.com" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030911205528.0228d458@mail.dlsi.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ZV-qU1.0.BF5.oOTO_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51843 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 9/11/03 8:56 PM, "Steve Krivit" wrote: >> Was Mallove of I.E. able to video archive the Seminar. > > > I believe he did and has considereations to put onto a DVD collection > No, the Seminar was not taped -- which I regret as does Peter Hagelstein. He thought that it would "restrict" the freedom of expression at such a seminar. He now agrees that it was a mistake not to tape it. I would have had he not told me not to when I arrived 10 minutes late for the opening. - Gene From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 12 13:52:41 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA26942; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 13:49:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 13:49:46 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030912164811.019ca358@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 16:49:46 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: New papers from Letts, Narita, Takahashi and others Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"xfAUU2.0.oa6.g5ZO_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51844 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See: http://www.lenr-canr.org/iccf10/iccf10.htm#Proceedings Interesting Ti ion-beam research from Takahashi et al. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 12 14:08:51 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA05372; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:06:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:06:42 -0700 Message-ID: <3F62353C.4090104@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 17:06:04 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: New Google Feature Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"-ual_1.0.sJ1.XLZO_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51845 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The Google Calculator: To use Google's built-in calculator function, simply enter the expression you'd like evaluated in the search box and hit the Enter key or click the Google Search button. The calculator can evaluate mathematical expressions involving basic arithmetic (5+2*2 or 2^20), more complicated math (sine(30 degrees) or e^(i pi)+1), units of measure and conversions (100 miles in kilometers or 160 pounds * 4000 feet in Calories), and physical constants (1 a.u./c or G*mass of earth/radius of earth^2). You can also experiment with other numbering systems, including hexadecimal and binary. http://www.google.com/help/features.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 12 14:24:36 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA16107; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:22:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:22:02 -0700 Message-ID: <3F6238DE.3040704@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 17:21:34 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: New Google Feature References: <3F62353C.4090104@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: <3F62353C.4090104@rtpatlanta.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"pzFQ62.0.ax3.wZZO_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51846 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > The Google Calculator: Damn, this thing is good: 100 (furlongs per fortnight) = 0.037202381 miles per From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 12 14:28:06 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA18631; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:25:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:25:48 -0700 Message-ID: <410-220039512212548343@mindspring.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: JedRothwell@mindspring.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2003.3.84.0 (Windows) From: "Jed Rothwell" To: "Vortex" Subject: Interesting article about fission plant safety Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 17:25:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c5bcc7906c4391e6b99e7417b14a26b6af2c98678957fd5f6350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: <"hGw4h3.0.1Z4.RdZO_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51847 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See the latest: http://thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030922&s=bivens - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 12 14:49:46 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA32486; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:48:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:48:00 -0700 Message-ID: <3F623EEF.4070309@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 17:47:27 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: New Google Feature References: <3F62353C.4090104@rtpatlanta.com> <3F6238DE.3040704@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: <3F6238DE.3040704@rtpatlanta.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"XHmpl1.0.Rx7.FyZO_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51848 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > Terry Blanton wrote: > >> The Google Calculator: > > > > Damn, this thing is good: > > > 100 (furlongs per fortnight) = 0.037202381 miles per That snipped too soon. Should have said "miles per hour". It really does work. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 12 17:05:38 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA17353; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 17:03:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 17:03:45 -0700 Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 10:02:29 +1000 From: Robin van Spaandonk Subject: Re: It's already here - PAY ATTENTION! In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: Organization: Improving MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: Resent-Message-ID: <"aahNj.0.3F4.WxbO_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51849 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to explorecraft's message of Fri, 12 Sep 2003 19:25:28 +0700: Hi, [snip] > >'vaporware' just doesn;t quite describe it: Koloc's Plasmaks > >http://www.neoteric-research.org/ >http://www.prometheus2.net/ [snip] They may appear similar, but this isn't the same thing at all. Paul is trying to achieve conventional fusion (albeit in an unconventional manner), whereas WO0203417 is probably extracting energy from Hydrinos (see www.blacklightpower.com), with some resultant fusion reactions thrown in. Furthermore, AFAIK, Paul hasn't even achieved scientific break even, whereas these people appear to have already achieved 10 fold OU in a prototype device, which could probably be put into production in a commercial enterprise in about a year, if they couple a number of devices in parallel to even out the variations in output power (assuming they have such a problem). Regards, R. van Spaandonk When you are counting the dead, remember who voted for the man that made it all possible. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 12 23:40:45 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id XAA22790; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 23:38:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 23:38:51 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 22:46:15 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: New papers from Letts, Narita, Takahashi and others Resent-Message-ID: <"cSF9f3.0.0a5.xjhO_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51850 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:49 PM 9/12/3, Jed Rothwell wrote: >See: > >http://www.lenr-canr.org/iccf10/iccf10.htm#Proceedings > >Interesting Ti ion-beam research from Takahashi et al. The Letts-Cravens article is really something to behold. Fun to visualize the event in terms of the researchers present. Glad vorts or former vorts were there to behold such a miracle in a bottle. Wish I could have been there. If the repeatability continues and Little can't make it go away, that has to be one of the best things to ever happen for CF and for the vindication of Fleischmann and Ponns. It's still just electrolysis in a bottle ... only with a bit of light on shed on the field. 8^) A great starting point for effect optimization, and hopefully a credible starting place for serious institutional research. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 13 08:08:00 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA08340; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 08:06:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 08:06:06 -0700 X-Peer-Info: remote-ip 199.125.98.218 local-ip 199.125.85.40 local-name mercury.mv.net User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 11:04:59 -0700 Subject: My question to all NH Primary candidates - ENERGY From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: Eugene Mallove Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id IAA08312 Resent-Message-ID: <"c7b8F.0.E22.U9pO_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51851 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This will be my question to ALL presidential candidates that I happen to encounter during the New Hampshire Presidential Primary season, which is already well underway in September 2003: *************************************************************************** Candidate X: I¹m Dr. Eugene Mallove of Infinite Energy Magazine in Concord. I¹d like to ask what YOUR position is on an issue that transcends and yet encompasses ALL the other issues that you and other candidates talk about ‹ peace, freedom, the economy, healthcare, the environment, and - of course - energy independence: During your campaign will you ask for and DEMAND a review by the US Department of Energy or by the National Academy of Sciences of the now overwhelming body of scientific evidence that supports cold fusion/low-energy nuclear reactions energy? This is clean, abundant energy from water, a scientific discovery made in the United States and announced in 1989 ‹ and then crushed, as it was being confirmed, by arrogant vested academic and bureaucratic interests? **************************************************************************** A Yes or No answer will do! If anyone wishes to post this question elsewhere, or to ask it himself or herself of any candidate -- in ANY primary state, I would be thrilled. Please let me know if any responses are received from any of the presidential candidates or their senior advisors. We will post responses on our web site and elsewhere. Sincerely, Dr. Eugene F. Mallove New Energy Foundation, Inc. Infinite Energy Magazine P.O. Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 Ph: 603-485-4700 Fx: 603-485-4710 www.infinite-energy.com **************** From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 13 12:10:08 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA18376; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 12:08:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 12:08:20 -0700 Message-ID: <410-2200396131985375@mindspring.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: JedRothwell@mindspring.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2003.3.84.0 (Windows) From: "Jed Rothwell" To: "Vortex" Subject: Letts PowerPoint slides corrected Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 15:08:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c5bcc7906c4391e6bab7296aac056f71d609c35207ddcfe03350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: <"IPmQX2.0.LU4.RisO_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51852 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dennis Letts sent me some corrections for the slides. There were spelling mistakes. The new version is now uploaded. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 13 14:58:42 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA07562; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 14:55:24 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 14:55:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F638BC3.F00F3839@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 14:27:31 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: WHAT'S NEW Friday, 12 Sep 03] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"D2Jy9.0.4s1.99vO_"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51853 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, 12 Sep 03 Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 15:58:20 -0400 From: "What's New" Reply-To: opa@aps.org To: "What's New" WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 12 Sep 03 Washington, DC 1. EDWARD TELLER: PHYSICS WILL BE LESS INTERESTING WITHOUT HIM. He died Tuesday at age 95. His passionate anti-communism and work on exotic weapons made him an almost mythic hero to many. Always a technological optimist, he produced a flood of unconventional ideas on a wide range of subjects. He was most effective when he worked with other great physicists such as Hans Bethe. He was strongly supportive of: Star Wars, the X-ray laser and Brilliant Pebbles. 2. ENERGY BILL: WHITE HOUSE WANTS DRILLING IN WILDLIFE REFUGE. The Administration plan to finance the Iraq War with Iraqi oil is not working, so the White House has renewed its call to open the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge to oil drilling. The plan made it into the House version of the energy bill, but the Senate is balking, with a filibuster possible. The Administration also rejected Senate provisions on global warming, saying they are inconsistent with the President's strategy on the issue. The "strategy" is to turn to hydrogen fuel cell automobiles some day, with "voluntary" emission controls in the meantime. 3. SHUTTLE: DAMN THE FOAM, FULL SPEED AHEAD. Based on its Return-To-Flight plan, NASA hopes to fly the shuttle again as early as March and conduct as many as four missions in 2004. Members of the House Science committee are uneasy about such an ambitious schedule, but even before the accident, Columbia's mission was to be the last "science" mission of the shuttle. NASA chief Sean O'Keefe acknowledges that NASA is considering robotic shuttle flights to resupply the International Space Station. 4. BIOSPHERE0-2: ANYONE LOOKING FOR A REAL CONVERSATION PIECE? Biosphere-2, the $200M dream house of oil billionaire Edward P. Bass, was built as an experiment to see if a self-sustaining human colony could be built on Mars as a refuge from the unruly masses on Earth. Alas, a Garden of Eden it was not, although ants and morning glories have reportedly thrived. Bass turned Biosphere-2 over to Columbia University to convert into a legitimate science project. Columbia soon tired of it (WN 24 Jun 03), and DOE was approached next. Sadly, the rather neat idea of climate change research in a terrarium never quite caught on. Bass, who might have been getting a little testy by then, sued Columbia claiming they had let the property run down. Last week, Columbia and Bass reached an undisclosed settlement, so once again the owner is looking for a new tenant. Anyone interested in acquiring a place with lots of windows and an indoor ocean, should contact Decisions Investment Corporation. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY. Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the University or the American Physical Society, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN You are currently subscribed to whatsnew as: To unsubscribe, send a blank e-mail to: To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 13 16:59:21 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA32345; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 16:57:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 16:57:57 -0700 Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 09:52:45 +1000 From: Robin van Spaandonk Subject: Re: My question to all NH Primary candidates - ENERGY In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <6bb7mv09glpb5aq20haldjukvf4j2bgrpe@4ax.com> Organization: Improving MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA32296 Resent-Message-ID: <"oaiTG.0.Cv7.5ywO_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51854 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Eugene F. Mallove's message of Sat, 13 Sep 2003 11:04:59 -0700: Hi, [snip] >This will be my question to ALL presidential candidates that I happen to >encounter during the New Hampshire Presidential Primary season, which is >already well underway in September 2003: > >*************************************************************************** >Candidate X: I¹m Dr. Eugene Mallove of Infinite Energy Magazine in Concord. > >I¹d like to ask what YOUR position is on an issue that transcends and yet >encompasses ALL the other issues that you and other candidates talk about ‹ >peace, freedom, the economy, healthcare, the environment, and - of course - >energy independence: > >During your campaign will you ask for and DEMAND a review by the US >Department of Energy or by the National Academy of Sciences of the now >overwhelming body of scientific evidence that supports cold >fusion/low-energy nuclear reactions energy? This is clean, abundant energy >from water, a scientific discovery made in the United States and announced >in 1989 ‹ and then crushed, as it was being confirmed, by arrogant vested >academic and bureaucratic interests? >**************************************************************************** > >A Yes or No answer will do! You ask what their position is, but you say a yes or no answer will do. That does not compute. ;) Regards, R. van Spaandonk When you are counting the dead, remember who voted for the man that made it all possible. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 13 17:57:23 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA03365; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 17:55:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 17:55:13 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <180.1f903cd7.2c951646@aol.com> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 20:54:30 EDT Subject: Saw I.E. on the shelf To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_180.1f903cd7.2c951646_boundary" X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10690 Resent-Message-ID: <"eDeNf.0.Vq.nnxO_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51855 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --part1_180.1f903cd7.2c951646_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I went to Barns and Noble here in Western PA. I saw Infinite Energy there on the bookshelf. Good work Gene. I hope Gene and many of his friend and we here on the Vortex go down in history. Frank Znidarsic --part1_180.1f903cd7.2c951646_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I went to Barns and Noble here in Western PA. &nb= sp; I saw Infinite Energy there on the bookshelf.  Good work Gene. = ; I hope Gene and many of his friend and we here on the Vortex go down in hi= story.

Frank Znidarsic --part1_180.1f903cd7.2c951646_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 13 23:37:33 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id XAA27887; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 23:36:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 23:36:05 -0700 Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 16:35:31 +1000 From: Robin van Spaandonk Subject: Re: ICCF10 News Flash in new LENR-CANR.org section In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: Organization: Improving MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: Resent-Message-ID: <"LbisS2.0.dp6.Kn0P_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51856 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Tue, 02 Sep 2003 23:11:27 -0800: Hi, [snip] >Yes, if the only thing required for LENR was closer radius electron >shielding as provided by a hydrino then the nuclear reactions would have >conventional branching ratios and signatures. This may not necessarily be the case. A severely shrunken deuterino/hydrino is a "new animal". It may consequently result in new forms of nuclear reaction. E.g. The tightly bound electron may be expelled during the fusion process, carrying away the reaction energy, perhaps even passing it on to other electrons of the same atom in the process. This may result in multiple electrons being ejected with the nuclear energy divided among them. Another possibility is that positively charged hydrino/deuterino molecules may form chains with negatively charged hydrino/deuterion-hydride. Such chains could be of varying length, and possible even carry a net negative charge e.g. D- D2+ D- which could be small and massive enough to penetrate a normal atoms electron shells, and make a "bee-line" for the nucleus. It also just happens to contain 4 D nuclei, or the equivalent of 2 helium nuclei. (note the resemblance to a single row of a salt such as NaCl i.e. Cl- Na+ Cl-) . >There would not be a >predominant proportion of multi-body reactions. The daughter isotopes >having a mass increase of 2 or 4 would be much more common. I don't see >how the hydrino theory applies here at all. I would however indeed expect to see masses increases of 2 and 4 (and 6) too. Regards, R. van Spaandonk When you are counting the dead, remember who voted for the man that made it all possible. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 13 23:48:12 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id XAA03630; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 23:46:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 23:46:39 -0700 Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 16:44:18 +1000 From: Robin van Spaandonk Subject: Re: ICCF10 News Flash in new LENR-CANR.org section In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: Organization: Improving MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: Resent-Message-ID: <"fua0w1.0.du.Fx0P_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51857 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Robin van Spaandonk's message of Sun, 14 Sep 2003 16:35:31 +1000: Hi, [snip] I should add that where longer chains are involved, it's possible that the whole chain doesn't take part in the fusion reaction, but that part of the chain is expelled as energetic nuclei, carrying of the fusion energy spread over a number of particles. Regards, R. van Spaandonk When you are counting the dead, remember who voted for the man that made it all possible. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 14 00:48:05 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA15777; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 00:46:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 00:46:55 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 23:54:16 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Letts-Cravens experiment a cigarette lighter effect? Cc: "little" Resent-Message-ID: <"MwCNZ.0.Ms3.kp1P_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51858 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It appears that electrolysis is stopped prior to laser stimulation, i.e. at least the article says "co-deposition is stopped". Perhaps this just means the secondary gold cathode is removed? This is done at just about the time the palladium is just barely and newly sealed by a layer of electrodeposited gold. The cell at this time should have an excess of oxygen, due to the corresponding hydrogen having been adsorbed. If the hydrogen is desorbed then it should recombine and thus create energy. The "cigarette lighter" effect was often mentioned in the early days of CF. It is called this because at one time loaded palladium was supposedly used to make a spontaneously igniting cigarette lighter. A reasonable hypothesis then is that the laser stimulation may act like an electromagnetic valve that controls the desorbtion rate of the deuterium which is otherwise to a large extent sealed by the thin gold layer. One way this hypothesis can be checked is by using protium water, or just light water, but with the laser frequency adjusted according to the protium mass. Another means of testing the hypothesis might include, prior to laser stimulation, replacing the electrolyte and gas layer of the cell with a heavy non-oxygen bearing clear fluid like carbon tetrachloride or carbon tetraflouride, with an oxygen scrubber included. An easier check would involve including a layer of carbon tetraflouride and an oxygen getter in a layer just below the electrolyte. Assuming the effect is then still creatable, the electrode could then be lowered into the oxygen free environment after the initial laser stimulation, and then stimulated again to see if gas bubbles evolve from the spot. Simply using an oxygen scrubber in the existing Letts-Cravens apparatus could be the simplest preliminary check that might show some diminishing of the excess heat, but the scrubber might change the enthalpy as well. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 14 06:05:07 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA19520; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 06:02:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 06:02:50 -0700 Message-ID: <3F645A53.BBC4DF74@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 06:10:55 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Letts-Cravens experiment a cigarette lighter effect? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"K4Okk1.0.vm4.vR6P_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51859 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Before you get too involved in speculation, I suggest you read my paper about the Letts effect. There you will find much more information. Ed Horace Heffner wrote: > It appears that electrolysis is stopped prior to laser stimulation, i.e. at > least the article says "co-deposition is stopped". Perhaps this just > means the secondary gold cathode is removed? This is done at just about > the time the palladium is just barely and newly sealed by a layer of > electrodeposited gold. The cell at this time should have an excess of > oxygen, due to the corresponding hydrogen having been adsorbed. If the > hydrogen is desorbed then it should recombine and thus create energy. > > The "cigarette lighter" effect was often mentioned in the early days of CF. > It is called this because at one time loaded palladium was supposedly > used to make a spontaneously igniting cigarette lighter. > > A reasonable hypothesis then is that the laser stimulation may act like an > electromagnetic valve that controls the desorbtion rate of the deuterium > which is otherwise to a large extent sealed by the thin gold layer. One > way this hypothesis can be checked is by using protium water, or just light > water, but with the laser frequency adjusted according to the protium mass. > > Another means of testing the hypothesis might include, prior to laser > stimulation, replacing the electrolyte and gas layer of the cell with a > heavy non-oxygen bearing clear fluid like carbon tetrachloride or carbon > tetraflouride, with an oxygen scrubber included. An easier check would > involve including a layer of carbon tetraflouride and an oxygen getter in a > layer just below the electrolyte. Assuming the effect is then still > creatable, the electrode could then be lowered into the oxygen free > environment after the initial laser stimulation, and then stimulated again > to see if gas bubbles evolve from the spot. > > Simply using an oxygen scrubber in the existing Letts-Cravens apparatus > could be the simplest preliminary check that might show some diminishing of > the excess heat, but the scrubber might change the enthalpy as well. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 14 06:52:21 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA07973; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 06:50:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 06:50:47 -0700 X-Peer-Info: remote-ip 199.125.98.219 local-ip 199.125.85.40 local-name mercury.mv.net User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 09:49:45 -0700 Subject: Re: Saw I.E. on the shelf From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "vortex l eskimo.com" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <180.1f903cd7.2c951646@aol.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3146377785_1169427" Resent-Message-ID: <"asum33.0.Uy1.t87P_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51860 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3146377785_1169427 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable On 9/13/03 5:54 PM, "FZNIDARSIC@aol.com" wrote: > I went to Barns and Noble here in Western PA. I saw Infinite Energy the= re on > the bookshelf. Good work Gene. I hope Gene and many of his friend and w= e > here on the Vortex go down in history. >=20 > Frank Znidarsic=20 Yes, Frank =8B over 2500 copies are on Borders and Barnes and Noble and other like newsstands. The numbers grow, slowly but surely. New people come in this way. =20 By accident, I saw a guy at the local Borders furtively reading a copy of I= E as though he were paging through a Penthouse or Playboy! He did not buy it =8B under his arm he carried a copy of Skeptical Inquirer, which he DID buy! I know because I watched him in the check out line. He did not buy IE, but his small mind was exposed to something he knows damn well he cannot explai= n away. This was the issue with Hagelstein and MIT on the cover and the Mitsubishi ICCF9 paper. Thanks for the good wishes. Gene Mallove --B_3146377785_1169427 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: Saw I.E. on the shelf On 9/13/03 5:54 PM, "FZNIDARSIC@aol.com" <= ;FZNIDARSIC@aol.com> wrote:

I went to Barns and No= ble here in Western PA.   I saw Infinite Energy there on the books= helf.  Good work Gene.  I hope Gene and many of his friend and we = here on the Vortex go down in history.

Frank Znidarsic

Yes, Frank — over 2500 copies are on Borders and Barnes and Noble and= other like newsstands. The numbers grow, slowly but surely. New people come= in this way.  

By accident, I saw a guy at the local Borders furtively reading a copy of I= E as though he were paging through a Penthouse or Playboy!  He did not = buy it — under his arm he carried a copy of Skeptical Inquirer, which = he DID buy!  I know because I watched him in the check out line. He did= not buy IE, but his small mind was exposed to something he knows damn well = he cannot explain away. This was the issue with Hagelstein and MIT on the co= ver and the Mitsubishi ICCF9 paper.

Thanks for the good wishes.

Gene Mallove --B_3146377785_1169427-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 14 06:57:16 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA10290; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 06:55:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 06:55:50 -0700 X-Peer-Info: remote-ip 199.125.98.219 local-ip 199.125.85.40 local-name mercury.mv.net User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 09:54:51 -0700 Subject: Re: My question to all NH Primary candidates - ENERGY From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "vortex l eskimo.com" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6bb7mv09glpb5aq20haldjukvf4j2bgrpe@4ax.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"SOveW.0.bW2.bD7P_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51861 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 9/13/03 4:52 PM, "Robin van Spaandonk" wrote: > You ask what their position is, but you say a yes or no answer will do. > That does not compute. ;) > > > Regards, > > R. van Spaandonk The remark about "Yes or no" was added for those thinking of asking the question -- not for the candidate. It was a sassy afterthought remark. Also, in error a question mark was placed after the word "interests" -- it should be a period. Gene From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 14 07:58:11 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA02356; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 07:55:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 07:55:12 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <141.18f329c2.2c95db2a@aol.com> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 10:54:34 EDT Subject: deli lama interested in cold fusion To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_141.18f329c2.2c95db2a_boundary" X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10690 Resent-Message-ID: <"oonwa3.0.fa.F58P_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51862 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --part1_141.18f329c2.2c95db2a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yahoo! Groups : drums-of-peace Messages : Message 3 of 5 --part1_141.18f329c2.2c95db2a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yahoo! Groups : drums-of-peace Messages : Message 3 of 5 <= /FONT> --part1_141.18f329c2.2c95db2a_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 14 08:34:05 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA20359; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 08:31:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 08:31:34 -0700 Message-ID: <003601c37ad4$86add320$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: Letts-Cravens experiment a cigarette lighter effect? Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 08:25:22 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id IAA20328 Resent-Message-ID: <"VtVt5.0.1-4.Ld8P_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51863 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner writes, > The "cigarette lighter" effect was often mentioned in the early days of CF. > It is called this because at one time loaded palladium was supposedly > used to make a spontaneously igniting cigarette lighter. I had forgetton the early debate with F&P, where Douglas Morrison (CERN) said: "First is that the "cigarette lighter effect" has been forgotten." "In the last century, it was difficult to make reliable matches to light cigarettes. A reliable smokeless lighter was invented which consisted of a rod of palladium into which hydrogen had been introduced under pressure. This caused the lattice of the palladium to expand and thus stored energy. To light a cigarette, the top of the rod was uncovered; some hydrogen escaped releasing some of the stress and thus releasing energy which resulted in a small rise in temperature of the end of the rod. Palladium is a catalyst of hydrogen and oxygen which burn to give water plus energy. The palladium now slightly heated, catalyzes the escaping hydrogen and the oxygen of the air and the resulting heat of combustion which is mainly deposited on the surface of the rod, raises its temperature. This temperature rise releases more hydrogen which is catalyzed by the still more efficient hot palladium, and so on until the tip of the rod is so hot that the cigarette can be lit. The reliability of this system is high" This effect can indeed be used to explain certain kinds of "heat after death" and the effect works with hydrogen or deuterium, in fact Morrison notes: "it might be expected that this effect would occur also with normal water, H2O, being used instead of heavy water, D2O, but no description is given in the [ F&P] paper of any results of tests of the stage three boiling using normal water, H2O." "An interesting confirmation of this using electrochemistry was reported by Kreysa, Marx and Plieth [3]. They write "We have to report here that as we removed the deuterium-loaded palladium sheet from the cell and laid it on the table it did burn a scald into the table. One can still argue that this was due to deuterium fusion. Therefore we loaded the palladium sheet cathodically with hydrogen using an electrolyte containing only normal water (no enriched heavy water) and laid it on to a piece of wood where it also burnt a scald." They say it releases 147.3 kJ per mole D. "The principle of flameless catalytic combustion of hydrogen" - the official name of the 'cigarette lighter effect' - "is used in catalytic hydrogen burners (D. Behrens (ed) Waserstoffetechnologie - Perspektiven fur Forschung und Entwicklung, Dechema, Frankfurt/M 1986)." They estimate a heat flow of 35.9 W and a heat flow density of 179.6 W/cm3" for hydrogen loaded Pd. [snip] If palladium weren't so expensive, we might still have these magic cigarette lighters as a consumer item - matter of fact, it wouldn't surprise me if some "jeweler to the stars" like Harry Winston still makes them for his well-heeled clients. The interesting thing to me is that years before P&F, in 1986 Bockris suggested that electrolysis itself - any kind of electrolysis - is not exactly thermodynamically reversible. IOW there is a slight anomaly which can be exploited. Even if there is a small thermodynamic anomaly, whereby recombination produces slightly more heat energy than is demanded by electrolysis, as Bockris suggested in that paper, it is curious that it is seldom mentioned any more - even by Bockris himself !! Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 14 11:30:11 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA02877; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 11:24:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 11:24:28 -0700 Message-ID: <003a01c37aec$ac6cfc40$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Charge: Attempted-humor, or Back-door to CF Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 11:19:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0037_01C37AB1.FF87DD40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: <"h9MB91.0.ai.R9BP_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51864 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C37AB1.FF87DD40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The current proto-thread about the "cigarette lighter effect" = has...well, a lighter side... It has become nearly axiomatic in investment circles that any new = economic boom will depend on - first, an "enabling technology," and then = second, a "killer app" - that being an implementation of bland = technology that somehow transcends its usefulness, becoming a "mass = hysteria" kind of "must have" trendy thing...something that is bought as = much for what it says about its owner as for what it says about the = technology. A "craze" that has unintended and long-lasting benefits is an old story = in mass-consumerism. Long before anyone ever heard of the dot.bombs, = before even Qualcomm, CMGI, or Cisco Systems, there was a Dutch tulip = bulb. Not just any tulip bulb but Semper Augustus - more prosaic and sublime = than any stock, it was a flower of extraordinary beauty with = midnight-blue petals topped by a band of pure white and accented with = crimson flares. Around 1624, the Amsterdam man who owned the only dozen = specimens was offered 3,000 guilders for one bulb, about half the amount = that Rembrandt received for painting The Night Watch, a painting that in = today's dollars would fetch $50,000,000. He turned it down, much to the = chagrin of his descendents, no doubt... Could there be, then...already out there, just lurking in the recesses = of vortexian collective memory, just such a back door route for = acceptance of LENR ? And we're not talking cigarette lighters here, = buster... that market is pass=E9, not chic, less PC than=20 TV dinner... The tulip craze didn't last, but the Florist industry thrived, just as = many of the former dot.bombs like eBay have opened up new economic = sectors and re-emerged as trendsetters.... The really cool thing about = how the "next big thing" comes into our collective consciousness is that = long after the killer app has faded into oblivion, the enabling = technology is poised to become the real beneficiary.... I mean really... = does anyone still use Lotus 1-2-3? All of this goes to show that maybe the LENR community has gone about as = far as possible with endless positive experiments and its now time to = get on with life in a consumer-driven world. We know that any old cell = can put out copious amounts of hydrogen, OU or not - ergo, let's take = it from there. Or phrased another way, if cold fusion is to be our = hidden-agenda, the "enabling technology" behind a new economic = powerhouse, then what will be our killer app? ... Let the imagination = soar... Could it be built around Hydrogen Beer; latest craze in Japan? What if = we called it Cold Fusion Brew and included a mass-produced CF cell for = every dispensary ? The Asaka Beer corporation brews its special "Suiso" brand beer, where = the carbon dioxide which normally adds fizz has been replaced by the = "more environmentally friendly" gas - hydrogen (nice spin, guys!!). A = side effect of this brewski is it gives one a high-pitched voice and has = consequently made the beer extremely popular at karaoke sing-along = bars... ..but there are a few other "side effects" that go beyond even the = appropriately-named "futsuka-yoi" ...that is the obligatory hangover = (and maybe its accompanying attitude)... TOKYO (AP) The recent craze for hydrogen beer is at the heart of a three = way lawsuit between unemployed stockbroker Toshira Otoma, the Tike-Take = karaoke bar and the Asaka Beer Corporation.=20 Mr. Otoma is suing the bar and the brewery for selling toxic substances = and is claiming damages for grievous bodily harm leading to the loss of = his job. The bar is countersuing for defamation and loss of customers.=20 =20 "Mr Otoma drank fifteen bottles of hydrogen beer in order to maximize = the size of the flames he could belch during the contest. He catapulted = balls of fire across the room that Gojira would be proud of, but this = was not enough to win him first prize since the judgment is made on the = quality of the flames and that of the singing, and after fifteen bottles = of lager he was badly out of tune."=20 Well... ...I do believe we might be looking at the next "killer = app"... Tike-Take, Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C37AB1.FF87DD40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The current proto-thread about the "cigarette lighter effect"=20 has...well, a lighter side...
 
It has become nearly axiomatic in investment circles that any new = economic=20 boom will depend on - first, an "enabling technology," and = then=20 second, a "killer app" - that being an implementation of bland = technology that=20 somehow transcends its usefulness, becoming a "mass hysteria" kind of = "must=20 have" trendy thing...something that is bought as much for what it says = about its=20 owner as for what it says about the technology.
 
A "craze" that has unintended and long-lasting benefits is an old = story in=20 mass-consumerism. Long before anyone ever heard of the dot.bombs, before = even=20 Qualcomm, CMGI, or Cisco Systems, there was a Dutch tulip bulb.
 
Not just any tulip bulb but Semper Augustus - more prosaic and = sublime=20 than any stock, it was a flower of extraordinary beauty = with midnight-blue=20 petals topped by a band of pure white and accented with crimson flares. = Around=20 1624, the Amsterdam man who owned the only dozen specimens was offered = 3,000=20 guilders for one bulb, about half the amount that Rembrandt = received for=20 painting The Night Watch, a painting that in today's dollars would fetch = $50,000,000. He turned it down, much to the chagrin of his descendents, = no=20 doubt...
 
Could there be, then...already out there, just lurking in the = recesses of=20 vortexian collective memory, just such a back door route for = acceptance of=20 LENR ? And we're not talking cigarette lighters here, buster... that = market is=20 pass=E9, not chic, less PC than
TV dinner...
 
The tulip craze didn't last, but the Florist industry thrived, just = as many=20 of the former dot.bombs like eBay have opened up new economic sectors = and=20 re-emerged as trendsetters.... The really cool thing about how the "next = big=20 thing" comes into our collective consciousness is that long after the = killer app=20 has faded into oblivion, the enabling technology is poised to become the = real=20 beneficiary.... I mean really... does anyone still use Lotus = 1-2-3?
 
All of this goes to show that maybe the LENR community has gone = about as=20 far as possible with endless positive experiments and its now time to = get on=20 with life in a consumer-driven world. We know that any old cell can put = out=20 copious amounts of hydrogen,  OU or not - ergo, let's take it = from=20 there. Or phrased another way, if cold fusion is to be our=20 hidden-agenda, the "enabling technology" behind a new economic = powerhouse, then=20 what will be our killer app? ... Let the imagination soar...
 
Could it be built around Hydrogen Beer; latest craze in Japan? = What if=20 we called it Cold Fusion Brew and included a mass-produced CF cell = for=20 every dispensary ?
 
The Asaka Beer corporation brews its special "Suiso" brand beer, = where the=20 carbon dioxide which normally adds fizz has been replaced by the "more=20 environmentally friendly" gas - hydrogen (nice spin, guys!!). A = side effect=20 of this brewski is it gives one a high-pitched voice and has = consequently=20 made the beer extremely popular at karaoke sing-along bars...
 
..but there are a few  other "side effects" that go beyond = even the=20 appropriately-named "futsuka-yoi" ...that is the obligatory hangover = (and maybe=20 its accompanying attitude)...
 
TOKYO (AP) The recent craze for hydrogen beer is at the heart of a = three=20 way lawsuit between unemployed stockbroker Toshira Otoma, the Tike-Take = karaoke=20 bar and the Asaka Beer Corporation.

Mr. Otoma is suing the bar and the brewery for selling toxic = substances=20 and is claiming damages for grievous bodily harm leading to the loss of = his=20 job.  The bar is countersuing for defamation and loss of customers. =
 
"Mr Otoma drank fifteen bottles of hydrogen beer in order = to=20 maximize the size of the flames he could belch during the contest. He = catapulted=20 balls of fire across the room that Gojira would be proud of, but this = was not=20 enough to win him first prize since the judgment is made on the quality = of the=20 flames and that of the singing, and after fifteen bottles of lager he = was badly=20 out of tune."
 
Well...<burp> ...I do believe we might be looking at the next = "killer=20 app"...
 
Tike-Take,
 
Jones
------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C37AB1.FF87DD40-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 14 11:50:07 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA16020; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 11:47:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 11:47:14 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 10:54:28 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Letts-Cravens/Storms Magnet Effect discrepancy Resent-Message-ID: <"XowXK2.0.Ew3.nUBP_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51865 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The ICCF10 papers by Letts-Cravens and Storms at describing experiments with laser stimulation of cathodes in a magnetic field do not give the reader enough information about the magnet geometry or the magnetic field measurment/calibration. We are left to supposition regarding the magnetic fields. In fact, the photos seem to imply that the field orientations were vastly different in magnitude and orientation. Since there was a serious discrepancy in results between the two experiments, specifically a lack of polarization effects in the Storms experiment, this issue seems worthy of further discussion. The Letts experiment looks in one photo as if the magnets (of arc shape) might be segments from a magnetron, and thus their poles are axially aligned, and thus the magnetic field runs transversely through the cell as expected (unless or course the poles are opposed) because the magnets are on their sides facing each other on a line through the cell. The Storms photo shows two magnets that appear to be horseshoe shaped. If these are typical horse shoe magnets, then the N and S poles are at the tips of the horse shoe. The orientation of the magnets as shown in the photo, regardless of whether opposing poles face each other, would produce zero magnetic field at the center of the cathode, due to field cancellation there. Also of interest is the note by Storms that the calorimeter claibration was influenced by the presence of the magnetic field. This effect in itself appears on the surface to be of much interest as there is no apparent means for the calibration to be so affected. Is this an indication of a new anomaly? The "Storms effect"? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 14 11:51:45 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA16972; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 11:48:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 11:48:43 -0700 Message-ID: <3F64AB63.E0467E42@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 11:57:21 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Letts-Cravens experiment a cigarette lighter effect? References: <003601c37ad4$86add320$8837fea9@cpq> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id LAA16938 Resent-Message-ID: <"eo8SW3.0.694.AWBP_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51866 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Skeptics, for whom Morrison was perfect spokesman, make up prosaic explanations for which no reality exists at all. In other words, they try to explain an effect they think is fantasy using fantasy as an explanation. The irony of this approach seems to be lost on most people. The perfect example is the "cigarette lighter effect" noted here. The energy that results in this application is released when dissolved H2 reacts with O2 in the air. Strain release energy is trivial. Because very little excess O2 exists within a P-F cell, release of dissolved H2 causes no detectable heat effect, as can be and has been easily measured. The Pd in the cigarette lighter gets hot because this energy is being created rapidly in a very small amount of metal. This result is only partially related to the total amount of energy being released. In short, the "cigarette lighter effect" explains nothing. Ed Jones Beene wrote: > Horace Heffner writes, > > > The "cigarette lighter" effect was often mentioned in the early days of CF. > > It is called this because at one time loaded palladium was supposedly > > used to make a spontaneously igniting cigarette lighter. > > I had forgetton the early debate with F&P, where Douglas Morrison (CERN) said: > > "First is that the "cigarette lighter effect" has been forgotten." > > "In the last century, it was difficult to make reliable matches to light cigarettes. A reliable smokeless lighter was invented which consisted of a rod of palladium into which hydrogen had been introduced under pressure. This caused the lattice of the palladium to expand and thus stored energy. To light a cigarette, the top of the rod was uncovered; some hydrogen escaped releasing some of the stress and thus releasing energy which resulted in a small rise in temperature of the end of the rod. Palladium is a catalyst of hydrogen and oxygen which burn to give water plus energy. The palladium now slightly heated, catalyzes the escaping hydrogen and the oxygen of the air and the resulting heat of combustion which is mainly deposited on the surface of the rod, raises its temperature. This temperature rise releases more hydrogen which is catalyzed by the still more efficient hot palladium, and so on until the tip of the rod is so hot that the cigarette can be lit. The reliability of! > this system is high" > > This effect can indeed be used to explain certain kinds of "heat after death" and the effect works with hydrogen or deuterium, in fact Morrison notes: > > "it might be expected that this effect would occur also with normal water, H2O, being used instead of heavy water, D2O, but no description is given in the [ F&P] paper of any results of tests of the stage three boiling using normal water, H2O." > > "An interesting confirmation of this using electrochemistry was reported by Kreysa, Marx and Plieth [3]. They write "We have to report here that as we removed the deuterium-loaded palladium sheet from the cell and laid it on the table it did burn a scald into the table. One can still argue that this was due to deuterium fusion. Therefore we loaded the palladium sheet cathodically with hydrogen using an electrolyte containing only normal water (no enriched heavy water) and laid it on to a piece of wood where it also burnt a scald." > > They say it releases 147.3 kJ per mole D. "The principle of flameless catalytic combustion of hydrogen" - the official name of the 'cigarette lighter effect' - "is used in catalytic hydrogen burners (D. Behrens (ed) Waserstoffetechnologie - Perspektiven fur Forschung und Entwicklung, Dechema, Frankfurt/M 1986)." > > They estimate a heat flow of 35.9 W and a heat flow density of 179.6 W/cm3" for hydrogen loaded Pd. > [snip] > > If palladium weren't so expensive, we might still have these magic cigarette lighters as a consumer item - matter of fact, it wouldn't surprise me if some "jeweler to the stars" like Harry Winston still makes them for his well-heeled clients. > > The interesting thing to me is that years before P&F, in 1986 Bockris suggested that electrolysis itself - any kind of electrolysis - is not exactly thermodynamically reversible. IOW there is a slight anomaly which can be exploited. Even if there is a small thermodynamic anomaly, whereby recombination produces slightly more heat energy than is demanded by electrolysis, as Bockris suggested in that paper, it is curious that it is seldom mentioned any more - even by Bockris himself !! > > Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 14 14:20:54 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA24920; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 14:16:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 14:16:58 -0700 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:16:17 +1000 From: Robin van Spaandonk Subject: Re: Letts-Cravens/Storms Magnet Effect discrepancy In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: Organization: Improving MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: Resent-Message-ID: <"AR5oi1.0.856.8hDP_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51867 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Sun, 14 Sep 2003 10:54:28 -0800: Hi, [snip] >Also of interest is the note by Storms that the calorimeter claibration was >influenced by the presence of the magnetic field. This effect in itself >appears on the surface to be of much interest as there is no apparent means >for the calibration to be so affected. Is this an indication of a new >anomaly? The "Storms effect"? [snip] Any currents in a conductive solution would be affected by magnetic fields, possibly resulting in different flow patterns within the fluid that could affect the contact with the surface, thus changing the rate of cooling. Regards, R. van Spaandonk When you are counting the dead, remember who voted for the man that made it all possible. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 14 15:10:59 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA26363; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 15:08:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 15:08:32 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 14:15:54 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Letts-Cravens/Storms Magnet Effect discrepancy Resent-Message-ID: <"MZXN52.0.mR6.VREP_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51868 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:16 AM 9/15/3, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >Any currents in a conductive solution would be affected by magnetic >fields, possibly resulting in different flow patterns within the fluid >that could affect the contact with the surface, thus changing the rate of >cooling. The cell is located inside a Seebeck calorimeter containing fans. Stirring the electrolyte (more), though possibly reducing eqilibration time somehwat, should have no significant effect on the calibration constant. Perhaps the Seebeck thermocouples are affected by the magnetic field? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 14 15:13:45 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA27977; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 15:11:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 15:11:40 -0700 Message-ID: <3F64DAEF.873F799C@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 15:20:31 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Letts-Cravens/Storms Magnet Effect discrepancy References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"BC7cI.0.3r6.RUEP_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51869 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > The ICCF10 papers by Letts-Cravens and Storms at > > > > describing experiments with laser stimulation of cathodes in a magnetic > field do not give the reader enough information about the magnet geometry > or the magnetic field measurment/calibration. We are left to supposition > regarding the magnetic fields. In fact, the photos seem to imply that the > field orientations were vastly different in magnitude and orientation. > Since there was a serious discrepancy in results between the two > experiments, specifically a lack of polarization effects in the Storms > experiment, this issue seems worthy of further discussion. > > The Letts experiment looks in one photo as if the magnets (of arc shape) > might be segments from a magnetron, and thus their poles are axially > aligned, and thus the magnetic field runs transversely through the cell as > expected (unless or course the poles are opposed) because the magnets are > on their sides facing each other on a line through the cell. > > The Storms photo shows two magnets that appear to be horseshoe shaped. If > these are typical horse shoe magnets, then the N and S poles are at the > tips of the horse shoe. The orientation of the magnets as shown in the > photo, regardless of whether opposing poles face each other, would produce > zero magnetic field at the center of the cathode, due to field cancellation > there. Both Letts and I measured the field strength and orientation at the cathode position using a gauss meter. In both cases, the fields were similar. > > > Also of interest is the note by Storms that the calorimeter claibration was > influenced by the presence of the magnetic field. This effect in itself > appears on the surface to be of much interest as there is no apparent means > for the calibration to be so affected. Is this an indication of a new > anomaly? The "Storms effect"? I wish I could have an effect named after me, but alas this is not the one. A magnetic field changes how ions move under the influence of the electrolytic current. As a result, convection currents take different paths and these impact in a different way on the temperature at the internal thermistor. This is a major flaw in isoperibolic calorimetry. Therefore, a new calibration must be done each time the magnets are moved. Letts simply assumed that no heat was produced when the laser was off and used this as the calibration. This problem in isoperibolic calorimetry was the reason I went to a Seebeck and Little is now constructing a flow calorimeter. Until this more obvious and strong effect is eliminated, nothing can be said about the potential small effect of a magnetic field. Ed > > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 14 15:36:03 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA10342; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 15:34:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 15:34:13 -0700 Message-ID: <3F64EDBC.6050009@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 18:37:48 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Charge: Attempted-humor, or Back-door to CF References: <003a01c37aec$ac6cfc40$8837fea9@cpq> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"qgwss3.0.TX2.apEP_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51870 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Or phrased another way, if cold fusion is to be our hidden-agenda, the > "enabling technology" behind a new economic powerhouse, then what will > be our killer app? ... Let the imagination soar... CF POPCORN! You just whack the package on the counter like a chocolate orange, lay it on the grill, and voilà, pops in the bag! TIC, Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 14 15:48:48 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA17731; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 15:46:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 15:46:43 -0700 Message-ID: <000201c37b09$8967a8e0$8301bf3f@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Off-Peak Hydrogen Storage, Fuel Cells, and Solar Panels Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 16:44:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94020e3a2b5b224e978bd80d8a1cd50fe58350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: <"OgQVt.0.zK4.I_EP_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51871 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: While waiting for Ed Storms' LENR-CANR to bear fruit, consider domestic and commercial off-peak hydrogen production/storage and fuel cells (solar augmented) using some of that sky-polluting energy that is lighting up cow paths and gopher holes. It probably could cut required generating capacity (fossil fuel consumption) in half. *click on image to enlarge* http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap001127.html This site has a night view of the Aug 14, 2003 blackout. http://www.freemaninstitute.com/nightearth.htm Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 14 16:42:44 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA18700; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 16:41:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 16:41:05 -0700 Message-ID: <3F64FD68.1010509@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 19:44:40 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Blackout Albed, was: Off-Peak Hydrogen Storage, Fuel Cells, and Solar Panels References: <000201c37b09$8967a8e0$8301bf3f@computer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"R2cl52.0.1a4.GoFP_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51872 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: >This site has a night view of the Aug 14, 2003 blackout. > >http://www.freemaninstitute.com/nightearth.htm > Sorry Mr. Sparber, It's a hoax: http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_blackout_photo.htm in an actual image: http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/NaturalHazards/shownh.php3?img_id=11628 please note that Toronto totally disappears while Boston is unaffected (not on the same power grid). Check out the albedo of middle of northern Canada in the image you referenced. You can see the reflection of space ambient light from the ground. The albedo of the image in the blackout area of the referenced image is the same as the ocean. Don't feel bad, I have sent this email to many. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 14 16:55:29 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA31311; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 16:54:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 16:54:00 -0700 Message-ID: <3F65006F.3010403@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 19:57:35 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Blackout Albed, was: Off-Peak Hydrogen Storage, Fuel Cells, and Solar Panels References: <000201c37b09$8967a8e0$8301bf3f@computer> <3F64FD68.1010509@rtpatlanta.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ATDmP.0.7f7.N-FP_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51873 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: An error in the subject: 'Albed' should be 'Albedo' . . . look, I have had all three grandchildred all weekend; so, I'm a bit tyred. ter From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 14 16:57:24 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA01200; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 16:56:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 16:56:22 -0700 Message-ID: <00a701c37b1b$0b47e3a0$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" References: <003a01c37aec$ac6cfc40$8837fea9@cpq> <3F64EDBC.6050009@rtpatlanta.com> Subject: Re: Charge: Attempted-humor, or Back-door to CF Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 16:50:57 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA01162 Resent-Message-ID: <"KRqcv3.0.aI.c0GP_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51874 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton writes, > CF POPCORN! You just whack the package on the counter like a chocolate > orange, lay it on the grill, and voilà, pops in the bag! Be sure to patent that one before Ron Popeil gets wind of it... Speaking of humor - in the commercialization of CF, I ran across this bit of genial over-optimism the other day.. and check out that quote from Ed... I had no idea that he had actually found the proverbial goose... "Breaking Through! - Cold Fusion Goes Commercial" by Eugene F. Mallove, Publisher and Editor-in-Chief Infinite Energy Magazine 1995 - Editorial "We knew all along it would happen...."cold fusion" would begin to be commercialized long before science fully came to grips with what the mysterious and extremely potent excess heat-generating process really is." "Remarkably, cold fusion is being commercialized even in the face of continued widespread, but obviously misguided skepticism that the phenomenon even exists! As former Los Alamos National Laboratory scientist Dr. Edmund Storms, now with Salt Lake City-based ENECO, has suggested, "We can thank the skeptics for allowing some of us the chance to become very rich." END Speaking of very rich inventors - or for the benefit of those few on vortex who don't appreciate warped inventive genius (probably none here), Ron Popeil is the quirky inventor and incessant-airbag promoter of such revolutionary devices as the Veg-O-Matic, the Pocket Fisherman, spray-on hair, and the Inside-the-Shell Egg Scrambler. I'd almost be willing to bet that he's got a LENR device somewhere in the works.... And speaking of the goose that laid the golden egg, Louis Kervran of France has studied and concluded that the calcium in poultry eggshells can be created by a process not dissimilar from cold fusion...and all us alchemists (past life, of course) know that calcination was the first step towards getting the philosopher stoned... or did I get that wrong? Anyway, maybe if Kervan and Ron Popeil can get together with Mizuno, who has found transmuted gold, then that goose will be closer than Thanksgiving dinner... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 14 17:14:33 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA18157; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 17:12:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 17:12:32 -0700 Message-ID: <3F6504C7.2070407@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 20:16:07 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Charge: Attempted-humor, or Back-door to CF References: <003a01c37aec$ac6cfc40$8837fea9@cpq> <3F64EDBC.6050009@rtpatlanta.com> <00a701c37b1b$0b47e3a0$8837fea9@cpq> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"mIkhA2.0.cR4.lFGP_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51875 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >...and all us alchemists (past life, of course) know that calcination was the first step towards getting the philosopher stoned... or did I get that wrong? > >Anyway, maybe if Kervan and Ron Popeil can get together with Mizuno, who has found transmuted gold, then that goose will be closer than Thanksgiving dinner... > Well, palladium is only about $150 less than gold (~$380/oz); so, is there any way to start with Si? Also, isn't a philosopher stoned, by definition? Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 14 19:26:26 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA01787; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 19:25:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 19:25:01 -0700 Message-ID: <3F651659.AFAE3440@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 19:34:27 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Letts-Cravens/Storms Magnet Effect discrepancy References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"1jK1W1.0.rR.yBIP_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51876 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > At 7:16 AM 9/15/3, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > >Any currents in a conductive solution would be affected by magnetic > >fields, possibly resulting in different flow patterns within the fluid > >that could affect the contact with the surface, thus changing the rate of > >cooling. > > The cell is located inside a Seebeck calorimeter containing fans. Stirring > the electrolyte (more), though possibly reducing eqilibration time > somehwat, should have no significant effect on the calibration constant. > > Perhaps the Seebeck thermocouples are affected by the magnetic field? The magnets are not used in the Seebeck because I could see no effect when I used magnets with the isoperibolic calorimeter. The Seebeck is used because it has a much lower error when used to measure heat from the P-F effect or the Letts effect. Ed > > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 15 05:19:46 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id FAA23281; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 05:17:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 05:17:29 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 04:24:57 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Letts-Cravens experiment a cigarette lighter effect? Resent-Message-ID: <"2bgyC3.0.fh5.PtQP_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51877 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:57 AM 9/14/3, Edmund Storms wrote: >Skeptics, for whom Morrison was perfect spokesman, make up prosaic >explanations for which no reality exists at all. In other words, they try >to explain an effect they think is fantasy using fantasy as an >explanation. The irony of this approach seems to be lost on most people. >The perfect example is the "cigarette lighter effect" noted here. > >The energy that results in this application is released when dissolved H2 >reacts with O2 in the air. Strain release energy is trivial. Because >very little excess O2 exists within a P-F cell, release of dissolved H2 >causes no detectable heat effect, as can be and has been easily measured. >The Pd in the cigarette lighter gets hot because this energy is being >created rapidly in a very small amount of metal. This result is only >partially related to the total amount of energy being released. In short, >the "cigarette lighter effect" explains nothing. In your experiment(s) you account for gas that leaves the cell, but find none. There should be oxygen generated to match the hydrogen adsorbed during the experiment, and it must therefore still be in the cell in some form. (The O2 might still be in the Letts' cell too I assume.) If the laser changes the desorbtion rate then the adorbtion/desorbtion equilibrium is changed and hydrogen might be desorbed from the illuminated spot, whether hydrogen is being adsorbed or desorbed elsewhere on the cathode or not. This is a reasonable hypothesis provided the total energy balance shows it is possible. The hydrogen stored in the Pd represents potential energy in chemical form. It merely requires oxygen somewhere in the cell to convert it back to heat if it is desorbed. When I did high voltage electrolysis experiments I noted (when observing in the dark) an erie blue or blue-green glow in the vicinity of the anode. I think a metal oxidation reaction is a likely explanation. It was most interesting that it occured in the electrolyte and not on the anode. If this explanation of the blue glow holds, then it is clear that the available oxygen content in the electrolyte was very substantial, and probably in the form of hydrogen peroxide or some other chemical form, as opposed to being in the form of dissolved gas. Perhaps your cell has a mechanism for storing the oxygen? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 15 05:20:15 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id FAA23297; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 05:17:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 05:17:30 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 04:25:01 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Letts-Cravens/Storms Magnet Effect discrepancy Resent-Message-ID: <"veGcn2.0.sh5.QtQP_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51878 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:34 PM 9/14/3, Edmund Storms wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: > >> At 7:16 AM 9/15/3, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >> >> >Any currents in a conductive solution would be affected by magnetic >> >fields, possibly resulting in different flow patterns within the fluid >> >that could affect the contact with the surface, thus changing the rate of >> >cooling. >> >> The cell is located inside a Seebeck calorimeter containing fans. Stirring >> the electrolyte (more), though possibly reducing eqilibration time >> somehwat, should have no significant effect on the calibration constant. >> >> Perhaps the Seebeck thermocouples are affected by the magnetic field? > >The magnets are not used in the Seebeck because I could see no effect when I >used magnets with the isoperibolic calorimeter. The Seebeck is used because >it has a much lower error when used to measure heat from the P-F effect or the >Letts effect. Oh, OK. My mistake. I should have read the article more carefully. Yes, I am aware of the good Seebeck reputation, and that it still has limitations. About the magnetic field: could you please describe the magnets, the location and orientation of their poles, and how the poles were oriented in the experiment? What was the orientation and intensity of the B field you measured? Was it horizontal across the cell and perpendicular to the laser beam as it was in Letts' experiment? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 15 08:01:06 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA03881; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:56:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:56:44 -0700 Message-ID: <3F65C684.9EDED37B@ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 08:07:17 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Letts-Cravens experiment a cigarette lighter effect? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"XYYln3.0.Uy.iCTP_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51879 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > At 11:57 AM 9/14/3, Edmund Storms wrote: > >Skeptics, for whom Morrison was perfect spokesman, make up prosaic > >explanations for which no reality exists at all. In other words, they try > >to explain an effect they think is fantasy using fantasy as an > >explanation. The irony of this approach seems to be lost on most people. > >The perfect example is the "cigarette lighter effect" noted here. > > > >The energy that results in this application is released when dissolved H2 > >reacts with O2 in the air. Strain release energy is trivial. Because > >very little excess O2 exists within a P-F cell, release of dissolved H2 > >causes no detectable heat effect, as can be and has been easily measured. > >The Pd in the cigarette lighter gets hot because this energy is being > >created rapidly in a very small amount of metal. This result is only > >partially related to the total amount of energy being released. In short, > >the "cigarette lighter effect" explains nothing. > > In your experiment(s) you account for gas that leaves the cell, but find > none. There should be oxygen generated to match the hydrogen adsorbed > during the experiment, and it must therefore still be in the cell in some > form. (The O2 might still be in the Letts' cell too I assume.) Some oxygen will exist in a cell containing a recombiner and a Pd cathode, i.e. orphaned oxygen. However, I use a Pt cathode on which only a very small amount Pd deposits, along with much more Au. Essentially no D2 is absorbed, hence no orphaned oxygen is produced. Letts uses an open cell, which contains a stoichiometic mixture of D2 and O2. Potential loss of D2 from the cathode occurs under the liquid where oxygen availability is low. This D2 will not react once it enters the gas space any faster than the ambient D2 and O2 react, which is not at all. > If the > laser changes the desorbtion rate then the adorbtion/desorbtion equilibrium > is changed and hydrogen might be desorbed from the illuminated spot, The amount of hydrogen that can leave the illuminated spot is in the range of micrograms in my cell. Even when Pd is used, the net loss would be zero because D2 is being continuously replaced by electrolysis. > > whether hydrogen is being adsorbed or desorbed elsewhere on the cathode or > not. This is a reasonable hypothesis provided the total energy balance > shows it is possible. The hydrogen stored in the Pd represents potential > energy in chemical form. It merely requires oxygen somewhere in the cell > to convert it back to heat if it is desorbed. Yes, but the amount of oxygen in a cell, even if the gas is all oxygen, is about 50 ml of gas. This amount of oxygen can produce only a trivial amount of energy, even if it all reacted and the reaction would soon stop when all of the O2 reacted. In my cell, such a reaction would be seen as a change in the amount of oil in the reservoir. > > > When I did high voltage electrolysis experiments I noted (when observing in > the dark) an erie blue or blue-green glow in the vicinity of the anode. I > think a metal oxidation reaction is a likely explanation. It was most > interesting that it occured in the electrolyte and not on the anode. If > this explanation of the blue glow holds, then it is clear that the > available oxygen content in the electrolyte was very substantial, and > probably in the form of hydrogen peroxide or some other chemical form, as > opposed to being in the form of dissolved gas. Perhaps your cell has a > mechanism for storing the oxygen? If oxygen is stored, the amount of oil in the reservoir would change. Such changes are not seen. The blue-green glow sounds like ionized O2 which would only exist as bubbles in the electrolyte. Such ionization would occur only where sufficient voltage gradient was available, again within the electrolyte near the anode. Ed > > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 15 08:06:27 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA07192; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 08:03:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 08:03:07 -0700 Message-ID: <3F65C804.E28C9700@ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 08:13:41 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Letts-Cravens/Storms Magnet Effect discrepancy References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"gB9Se1.0.0m1.fITP_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51880 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > At 7:34 PM 9/14/3, Edmund Storms wrote: > >Horace Heffner wrote: > > > >> At 7:16 AM 9/15/3, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >> > >> >Any currents in a conductive solution would be affected by magnetic > >> >fields, possibly resulting in different flow patterns within the fluid > >> >that could affect the contact with the surface, thus changing the rate of > >> >cooling. > >> > >> The cell is located inside a Seebeck calorimeter containing fans. Stirring > >> the electrolyte (more), though possibly reducing eqilibration time > >> somehwat, should have no significant effect on the calibration constant. > >> > >> Perhaps the Seebeck thermocouples are affected by the magnetic field? > > > >The magnets are not used in the Seebeck because I could see no effect when I > >used magnets with the isoperibolic calorimeter. The Seebeck is used because > >it has a much lower error when used to measure heat from the P-F effect or the > >Letts effect. > > Oh, OK. My mistake. I should have read the article more carefully. Yes, > I am aware of the good Seebeck reputation, and that it still has > limitations. > > About the magnetic field: could you please describe the magnets, the > location and orientation of their poles, and how the poles were oriented in > the experiment? The poles were N opposite N and S opposite S. The field strength at the cathode was 250-300 gauss and the field was nearly perpendicular to the surface and parallel to the laser. The Letts arrangement was more complex. Until a cell is studied in a better calorimeter that is not sensitive to magnetic field, the effect of the magnet will remain in doubt. Ed > > What was the orientation and intensity of the B field you > measured? Was it horizontal across the cell and perpendicular to the laser > beam as it was in Letts' experiment? > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 15 10:03:51 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA18989; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 09:59:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 09:59:07 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 09:06:31 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Letts-Cravens/Storms Magnet Effect discrepancy Resent-Message-ID: <"2zZHI3.0.ce4.R_UP_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51881 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:13 AM 9/15/3, Edmund Storms wrote: >> About the magnetic field: could you please describe the magnets, the >> location and orientation of their poles, and how the poles were oriented in >> the experiment? > >The poles were N opposite N and S opposite S. The field strength at the >cathode >was 250-300 gauss and the field was nearly perpendicular to the surface and >parallel to the laser. The Letts arrangement was more complex. Actually, the photo of the Lett's experiment looks pretty straightforward. The field cuts across the cell and *perpendicular* to the laser beam. If that is so then it may well account for the discrepancy. Your magnetic field was parallel to the laser beam. >Until a cell is >studied in a better calorimeter that is not sensitive to magnetic field, the >effect of the magnet will remain in doubt. Until true replication occurs all is in doubt. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 15 10:25:34 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA03047; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 10:23:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 10:23:01 -0700 Message-ID: <3F65E8B1.F3AD0D15@ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 10:33:20 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Letts-Cravens/Storms Magnet Effect discrepancy References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"G0ECA.0.Sl.rLVP_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51882 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > At 8:13 AM 9/15/3, Edmund Storms wrote: > > >> About the magnetic field: could you please describe the magnets, the > >> location and orientation of their poles, and how the poles were oriented in > >> the experiment? > > > >The poles were N opposite N and S opposite S. The field strength at the > >cathode > >was 250-300 gauss and the field was nearly perpendicular to the surface and > >parallel to the laser. The Letts arrangement was more complex. > > Actually, the photo of the Lett's experiment looks pretty straightforward. > The field cuts across the cell and *perpendicular* to the laser beam. If > that is so then it may well account for the discrepancy. Your magnetic > field was parallel to the laser beam. > > >Until a cell is > >studied in a better calorimeter that is not sensitive to magnetic field, the > >effect of the magnet will remain in doubt. > > Until true replication occurs all is in doubt. I don't see how this statement follows from what has been done. The effect of a laser has been demonstrated with and without a magnet, and with and without using Pd. The only uncertainty is the effect of laser wavelength and whether the magnetic field, when it present, has any effect. I'm sure many details will be discovered about this effect. The absence of such discovery does not distract from the fact that the basic behavior has been replicated. Ed > > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 15 11:57:53 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA02978; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:50:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:50:00 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 10:57:21 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Letts-Cravens/Storms Magnet Effect discrepancy Resent-Message-ID: <"K5dWX1.0.Jk.NdWP_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51883 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:33 AM 9/15/3, Edmund Storms wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: [snip] >> Until true replication occurs all is in doubt. > >I don't see how this statement follows from what has been done. Sorry about that! The above statement only was meant to apply to this thread, namely the magnetic effect discrepancy, especially the Letts-Cravens observed effects of laser beam polarization. >The effect of a >laser has been demonstrated with and without a magnet, and with and >without using >Pd. The only uncertainty is the effect of laser wavelength and whether the >magnetic field, when it present, has any effect. I'm sure many details will be >discovered about this effect. The absence of such discovery does not distract >from the fact that the basic behavior has been replicated. Yes, that certainly seems to be true, but I was trying to keep that discussion in another thread. In fact, your experiment, using a small volume of adsrbing metal, seems to provide much better proof that the Letts effect is real. The main jist of what I am addressing in this thread is that the magnetic effect has not been replicated because the field orientation is completely different. Until that is rectified there is no replication of the magnetic effect, especially the polarization effect, so it remains in doubt. It is no suprise, however, that the effect was not observed in your experiment as the direction of polarization can have no effect, geometrically speaking, when the magnetic field is parallel to the beam. The discrepancy is possibly explained. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 15 13:06:07 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA27968; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 13:00:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 13:00:06 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:07:16 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Letts-Cravens experiment a cigarette lighter effect? Resent-Message-ID: <"MFQ-i.0.qq6.5fXP_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51884 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:07 AM 9/15/3, Edmund Storms wrote: >Some oxygen will exist in a cell containing a recombiner and a Pd cathode, >i.e. orphaned oxygen. However, I use a Pt cathode on which only a very small >amount Pd deposits, along with much more Au. Essentially no D2 is absorbed, >hence no orphaned oxygen is produced. This seems to be a critical point, and a big plus for your experimental design. The total energy balance then can not account for the excess power. >Letts uses an open cell, which contains >a stoichiometic mixture of D2 and O2. Potential loss of D2 from the cathode >occurs under the liquid where oxygen availability is low. This D2 will not >react once it enters the gas space any faster than the ambient D2 and O2 >react, which is not at all. You have assumed the oxygen is in gas form. I assumed it is in mostly in some other form, perhaps in a peroxide. However, if there is a stoichiometric layer of gas at the electrolyte surface, there is plenty of O2 available there to replenish the dissolved O2 being consumed by hydrogen desorbed at the beam illuminated spot. > >> If the >> laser changes the desorbtion rate then the adorbtion/desorbtion equilibrium >> is changed and hydrogen might be desorbed from the illuminated spot, > >The amount of hydrogen that can leave the illuminated spot is in the range of >micrograms in my cell. This seems to me to be a pretty strong argument. >Even when Pd is used, the net loss would be zero >because D2 is being continuously replaced by electrolysis. Well, the D2 could migate from non-illuminated sections fairly quickly to the illuminated sections. This certainly can't account for a 50 times increase in power production though. The only way to do that is to desorb hydrogen that was loaded of prior days - as in the Letts experiment. Such an effect would clearly end the high power production at some point though, provided the experiment were run long enough. The arguments I've made regarding the cigarette lighter effect clearly apply more to the Lett's experiment (In fact I hadn't read your article at the time I posted it.) Due to the short time frames involved in the polarization tests etc., in the Letts-Cravens experiment, it still may be a reasonable explanation for some of that effect. > >> >> whether hydrogen is being adsorbed or desorbed elsewhere on the cathode or >> not. This is a reasonable hypothesis provided the total energy balance >> shows it is possible. The hydrogen stored in the Pd represents potential >> energy in chemical form. It merely requires oxygen somewhere in the cell >> to convert it back to heat if it is desorbed. > >Yes, but the amount of oxygen in a cell, even if the gas is all oxygen, is >about 50 ml of gas. This amount of oxygen can produce only a trivial amount >of energy, even if it all reacted and the reaction would soon stop when all of >the O2 reacted. In my cell, such a reaction would be seen as a change in the >amount of oil in the reservoir. Not if the oxygen is in some chemical form, like a peroxide. > >> >> >> When I did high voltage electrolysis experiments I noted (when observing in >> the dark) an erie blue or blue-green glow in the vicinity of the anode. I >> think a metal oxidation reaction is a likely explanation. It was most >> interesting that it occured in the electrolyte and not on the anode. If >> this explanation of the blue glow holds, then it is clear that the >> available oxygen content in the electrolyte was very substantial, and >> probably in the form of hydrogen peroxide or some other chemical form, as >> opposed to being in the form of dissolved gas. Perhaps your cell has a >> mechanism for storing the oxygen? > >If oxygen is stored, the amount of oil in the reservoir would change. Such >changes are not seen. > >The blue-green glow sounds like ionized O2 which would only exist as bubbles >in the electrolyte. Such ionization would occur only where sufficient voltage >gradient was available, again within the electrolyte near the anode. This blue glow effect I would really like to understand (and I certainly don't.) It strikes me as very unlikely that the glow came from bubbles. The electrosparks and sometimes sheath went exclusively to the cathode, which produced bubbles, but the glow stayed with the anode when I switched to DC. I was quite surprised at this. Just prior to observing this as an anode effect for the first time I was running the experiment in AC mode. Some oxygen might have been supplied by the CaO in the electrolyte. Based on multiple experiments, is possible that Ca is involved in the glow, or even phosphorous from detergent. The glow was also observed using Na2SiO3 electrolyte. I should have spent a lot more time trying to pin down the source of the glow, I guess, but went on to other things. One very notable effect was that the anode glow could be instantly "dialed" like a light bulb, using a variac. The glow in one experiment, using a detergent as an electrolyte (in an unsuccessful attempt to rule out detergent as the cause), began at roughly 540-576 V. Above that the brightness seemed proportional to added voltage. The brightness variation may have been due to using rectified AC rather than pure DC. This "instant on" effect seems to me to preclude any explanation involving slow moving ions evolved at an electrode. The main glow appeared to be located about a mm or so away from the anode. I was thinking of doing some fiber optic probe checks on this to establish the glow location profile, and variation in brightness with instantaneous voltage, but never got around to it. It is also notable that the glow, like the electrosparks, did not occur until the electrode was conditioned. The glow onset occurred a bit before the electrospark onset and was a sign that electode conditioning would be successful. This could indicate that some compound is required to be generated in the electrolyte (like a peroxide), and/or that the effect is only generated by a conditioned electrode. There is some evidence for the latter in that previously conditioned electrodes sometimes generated the effect much quicker. The effect may well be associated with formation of a specific thickness of dielectric layer on the electrode, but that needs further proof. I have digressed! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 15 15:08:33 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA18995; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 15:02:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 15:02:40 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030915180119.019ca4f0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 18:02:25 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: SRI slides from ICCF-10 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"xV8Be3.0.ie4._RZP_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51885 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Great stuff. See: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/McKubreMCHreviewofex.pdf This material is familiar to readers here, but the slides are beautifully rendered and collected in one place. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 15 19:54:34 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA12243; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:52:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:52:09 -0700 From: herman@bw113.antioch-college.edu Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 02:50:11 +0000 (UTC) To: William Alek , Vortex Subject: Re: FW: Alternative Energy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"-LTQw1.0.C_2.OhdP_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51886 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vo, Can someone please describe BBGB if this is not clear? Dear Will A, Can you please let us know a specific protocol, BBGB, or "Blow-By-Grinding-Blow" for a method to achieve OU? Not the theory, but the reduction to practice. Please. For years articles and posts have claimed "some method can be used to make OU" .... but to date no one has offered any real world Hardball of How to do it... Hardball is "Hardball, Nuts and Bolts, Belt and Suspenders" engineering or Walk it instead of just talk it. Can do? Please and thanks, JH On Mon, 15 Sep 2003, William Alek wrote: > Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 16:34:43 -0400 > From: William Alek > To: herman@bw113.antioch-college.edu, jejaffe@comcast.net, > herman@antioch-college.edu, eli@xnet.com, iterative@hotmail.com, > cfn1@tfb.com, wasp@attbi.com, jedi_godol@hotmail.com, > david.lightstone@prodigy.net, aleksa@intalek.com > Subject: FW: Alternative Energy > > FYI. Check out his "point theory" below. Bill > > -----Original Message----- > From: William Alek [mailto:alekws@intalek.com] > Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 2:55 PM > To: Gary Schasteen > Subject: RE: Alternative Energy > > > Edwin, > > Actually, the intent of "scalar wave" technology is to "harvest" the > potential of spacetime itself. Power stations in space is an antiquated > concept. > > As far as I know, there are no commercial ou devices available "off the > shelf". At least not yet. > > My theory closely couples scalar waves to electromagnetism as shown in this > diagram: > http://www.intalek.com/Papers/ScalarWave.gif > > Simply by adjusting the "scalar potential" of free-space, electromagnetism > can either "bunch up" or "spread out" in the time domain. The FREE ENERGY > or > OU concept here is to setup a nonlinear flow of time and "trap" the excess > energy. I show at least one way of doing this in my paper, and its called > the ZPOD. > > According to my research, free energy/ou technology has been around for a > long time. There has yet to be an adequate explanation as to how it works. > Without any theory, its IMPOSSIBLE to engineer an ou device. > > Bill > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Gary Schasteen [mailto:rgrunt@yahoo.com] > >> Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2003 11:46 PM > >> To: William Alek > >> Subject: RE: Alternative Energy > >> > >> > >> Scalar Waves are a fascinating subject. I had > >> entertained the idea that scalar wave technology could > >> eventually lead to the development of power stations > >> in space capable of harvesting energy from the sun and > >> beaming that energy back to earth to be used to power > >> cities. I was looking at some of the overunity dipolar > >> devices that are available, and was thinking that the > >> quantity of energy aquired from the time-like domain > >> by the two dipoles could be significantly increased > >> per unit time, by combining your mass fluctuation > >> scalar technology with an electro-magnetic field > >> focusing technology. A two or more clusters of charged > >> particles could be focused into small regions of space > >> to create highly compressed dipole charges, while > >> simultaneously bombarding the dipoles with your > >> proposed scalar technology to fluctuate the mass even > >> further to induce larger volumes of copious energy. > >> With the right set up, you might be the first to > >> produce an industrial strength overunity device. > >> > >> How long do you think before advanced power systems > >> will be fully developed from this technology? > >> > >> Inquisitively, > >> > >> Edwin > >> > >> > >> --- William Alek wrote: > >> > Edwin, > >> > > >> > Looks pretty advanced. I had some emails with Larry > >> > Park of Terra Research. > >> > He mentioned that he's working on a Scalar Detector > >> > silicon chip, which I > >> > thought was fascinating. His work is of course > >> > related to seismic wave > >> > research. The research that I'm working on is what I > >> > call general scalar > >> > wave research, and is correlated with free energy, > >> > ou and > >> > gravity/anti-gravity devices. > >> > > >> > Bill > >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- > >> > > From: Gary Schasteen [mailto:rgrunt@yahoo.com] > >> > > Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2003 3:00 PM > >> > > To: William Alek > >> > > Subject: RE: Alternative Energy > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > William, > >> > > > >> > > Thanks for the paper. It was interesting, and if you > >> > > are correct in your ascertations, your discovery could > >> > > lead to a new technological revolution. There is a > >> > > friend of mine who's an engineer that owns an > >> > > Aerospace Research and Development firm called Unitel > >> > > Inc. His name is Larry Maurer, and his company is > >> > > based in Portland, Oregan. They developed the concept > >> > > for an advanced type II, Class VI, semi conducting > >> > > compound with patents in both Japan, and the United > >> > > States, and is several countries. Their technology has > >> > > applications in Propulsion, Quantum Computing, > >> > > defence, and Medical Technology. Here is a link to > >> > > their website where you may find information about > >> > > their technology and Staff including a link to their > >> > > patent at the patent office's main website. Their > >> > > technology may be of use to you in further development > >> > > of your own technology. > >> > > > >> > > http://www.unitedmusiccorp.com/unitelnw/patent.htm > >> > > > >> > > Let me know what you think. Happy Reading! > >> > > > >> > > Regards, > >> > > > >> > > Edwin > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > --- William Alek wrote: > >> > > > Edwin, > >> > > > > >> > > > I would probably choose differential geomerty. The > >> > > > reason why is simply because what you are trying to > >> > > > mathemeatically model > >> > > > already exists. Your not creating it from nothing. > >> > > > > >> > > > I think what your describing with Dr. Ivanov work is > >> > > > that there are modes of > >> > > > light where you have this faster than light effect, > >> > > > i.e, superluminal, even > >> > > > though light is still traveling at c. I'm presently > >> > > > formulating a different > >> > > > model of a photon based on mass fluctuation - that a > >> > > > photon is a very simple > >> > > > mass fluctuator. And that its type is predicated on > >> > > > the sign of dm/dt > >> > > > or -dm/dt, meaning photon or anti-photon. Another > >> > > > "differential" approach, > >> > > > perhaps? > >> > > > > >> > > > Here's the latest copy of a paper I presenting next > >> > > > week at the conference: > >> > > > http://www.intalek.com/Papers/PMF.pdf > >> > > > > >> > > > I'm still working on the conclusion, however. I > >> > > > think of this as a "photonic" space drive. > >> > > > > >> > > > Bill > >> > > > > >> > > > > -----Original Message----- > >> > > > > From: Edwin Gary Schasteen > >> > > > [mailto:rgrunt@yahoo.com] > >> > > > > Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2003 6:05 PM > >> > > > > To: alekws@intalek.com > >> > > > > Subject: Alternative Energy > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Alek: > >> > >> My name is Edwin G. Schasteen, and I am with TAP-TEN Research. I've > >> been developing a mathematical theory (which I have deemed 'Point > >> Theory')over the past 6 years. Although this is primarily a > >> mathematical theory, I have noticed similarities in quantities and > >> behaviors predicted by Point Theory, and some of the physical > >> quantities described in your devices. More specifically, point theory > >> is based on several graphic, and algebraic proofs that lead to > >> apparent paradoxes of asymmetries in Numerical Geometry. However, the > >> paradoxes are resolved by defining numerical asymmetries contained on > >> the surface of a field by mapping information contained on the > >> surface of the field to a flat frame, and expanding the flat frame > >> into 3-d subspace region by adding a three imaginary dimensions > >> thereby creating an imaginary numerical volume, with encapsulated by > >> a six sided real number surface(That is, the cube has six two > >> dimensional sides representing it's surface area). After > >> accomplishing this, we utilize the Pythagorean Theorem to calculate > >> the length of the diagonal distance, also known as the hypotenuse > >> between the real number flat frame, and the corresponding imaginary z > >> axis of the cube. Because the x and y axes of the frame are in real > >> numbers, and the z axis is in imaginary units, the hypotenuse is > >> reduced to zero thereby leaving one with a 'real number' two- > >> dimensional snapshot of the structures contained within the field. > >> However, the imaginary volume itself remains an subcontracted > >> interval not equal to zero in the complex plane. Therefore, an > >> imaginary angle between various regions inside the imaginary volume > >> itself, which is composed of a series of imaginary cubic volumes > >> encapsulated within imaginary six-sided surface areas. This imaginary > >> angle gives the illusion upon all six sides of the primary cube, > >> having six two- dimensional real number surfaces, of a symmetrical > >> three dimensional geometry, within a two dimensional geometric > >> surface in the form of asymmetrical information contained on the two > >> dimensional surface. Therefore, in the math, a series of imaginary > >> subspace-expansions results in a renormalization of information > >> contained on the surface of the field, and reduces information > >> contained on a field to a set of identity equations. Thus, > >> asymmetries arise upon a non-rotating two dimensional isomorphic > >> field as a result of mapping a three dimensional imaginary volume to > >> the real two dimensional surface. > >> > >> A good way to visualize this is to take a look at a photograph. A > >> photograph is an image of a three dimensional landscape mapped to the > >> two dimensional surface of the photograph. In Euclidean Geometry, > >> distances can not be negative, however in Differential Geometry, > >> distances are replaced by intervals. The distance in the photograph > >> is not defined by Euclidean Geometry, but by Differential Geometry, > >> and is therefore an interval. Intervals, unlike distances, can be > >> negative, positive or imaginary. (See "Feynman's Lectures, First > >> Edition.")The diagonal interval in the photograph ranges from the > >> square root of "a"=the square root of "c" to the square root > >> of "a^2+i^2"=the square root of "c^2"=negative infinity. In point > >> theory, there are two versions of "plus and minus infinity" There is > >> the infinity describing an infinite straight number line that ranges > >> from negative infinity to positive infinity, and there is the curved > >> infinity describing an infinite line ranging from negative infinity > >> to positive infinity that is looped back into itself. In the first > >> case, negative infinity and positive infinity remain on opposite ends > >> of the number line. In the second case, infinity is looped into > >> itself in such a manner that negative and positive infinity meet > >> together so that further progression of an infinite positively > >> progressed event continues on to arrive on the negative side of a > >> number line, from the positive side of a number line. In the second > >> case, a reference frame traveling beyond an infinite interval first > >> arrives at both negative and positive infinity, gets reflected at > >> negative and positive infinity, and progresses on toward zero from > >> the negative side of the number line. Conversely, in the first case, > >> a reference frame traveling beyond an infinite interval first arrives > >> at positive infinity, gets reflected at positive infinity, and > >> progresses on toward zero from the positive side of the number line. > >> > >> There are two equations in calculus that describe the progression of > >> an set of intervals(events) to both types of infinity. The first type > >> of infinity is described by the following equation: position of an > >> event on interval I=sec^2(theta)d(theta)dt, where theta is an angle > >> ranging from 0-360 degrees. The second type of infinity(I believe) is > >> described by the following equation: position of an event on interval > >> I=sec(theta)d(theta)dt. In the first case, position of I is always on > >> the positive side of number line, and always on the negative side of > >> the number line, if the angle is imaginary. In the second case, the > >> event progresses from the positive side of the number line to the > >> negative side of the number line as theta surpasses 90 degrees clock- > >> wise rotation. It appears from the results of your experiments, and > >> others experiments in electro-dynamics that most of your devices, if > >> not all of them, operates according to the second type of infinity. > >> The Lorentz Transformations also fall into the second type of > >> infinity. > >> > >> I am not sure if you are aware, but experiments conducted by Yu. > >> Ivanov 1990 revealed the existence of standing wave compression, and > >> the existence of interference patterns culminating as dynamic > >> standing waves, that exist between two coherent oscillators. He found > >> that if one of the oscillators has a higher frequency, then the > >> standing wave will begin to move from the to an oscillator with the > >> higher frequency to the oscillator with the lower frequency. This > >> standing wave current is seen by a stationary observer as a rise in > >> energy current from the oscillator of higher frequency to the > >> oscillator of lower frequency.. Dr. Ivanov formulated an equation > >> describing the magnitude of velocity of this energy current as the > >> velocity of the 'lively standing wave'existing between both > >> oscillator as follows: > >> > >> c(v1-v2)/(v1+v2), where v1 is the frequency of the first oscillator, > >> and v2 is the frequency of the second second oscillator, and c is the > >> speed of light. As one can see from the equation, as the frequency of > >> the oscillator v2 approaches zero, the velocity of the standing wave > >> traveling from oscillator v1 to oscillator v2 approaches the speed of > >> light. Now what is really interesting, is if oscillator v1 has a > >> positive frequency, and oscillator v2 has a time reversed frequency. > >> In this case, oscillator v2 has a negative frequency in forward time, > >> and the velocity of the standing wave is super-luminal. Now if v1 has > >> a frequency of 1htz, and oscillator v2 has a frequency -1htz, then > >> the velocity of the standing wave is positive infinity. However, is > >> oscillator v2 has a frequency of -2htz, then the standing wave has a > >> velocity of -3 times the speed of light,the negative sign in front of > >> 3 means that the energy flow has reversed direction so that the > >> energy flows from v2 to oscillator v1 at a velocity of three times > >> the speed of light. By varying the frequency of oscillator v2 from > >> -1htz to -2htz causes the velocity of energy to surpass positive > >> infinity to arrive at a velocity that is negative. This means that > >> this particular system, or equation belongs to the second type of > >> infinity where positive infinite directly loops back into negative > >> infinity. It is possible that the presence of a negative oscillator > >> would force a change in the refractive index of the vacuum to > >> increase the velocity of light represented by c in the equation, to > >> keep the energy from breaking the light speed barrier. Only > >> experimentation will reveal if that's the case. But, from what I read > >> of Mr. Beardons work, the vacuum velocity indeed varies in space. > >> If this is the case, then as the frequency of the second oscillator > >> v2 varies from 0htz to a frequency of -1htz, the refractive index of > >> space-time in the path of the standing wave between oscillator v1 and > >> v2 varies from 1 to 0, thereby allowing the velocity of the standing > >> wave to approach infinity. The equation for the refractive index is > >> c=wavelength/refractive index, in this case let c be variable, and > >> wavelength be constant and =1. Notice that when oscillator v2 > >> decreases it's frequency from -1htz to -2htz the refractive index of > >> space decreases from 0 to -1/3, the wavelength of the standing wave > >> is still 1, and c=-3. The standing wave has a negative velocity of > >> three times the speed of light without breaking the local light speed > >> barrier! The existence of the Dirac Sea full of virtual particle/anti- > >> particle pairs with lively standing waves exchanged between them, > >> could account for variances in the velocity of light over very short > >> intervals in space-time, which Mr. Beardon hypothesized as being > >> strongly correlated to the phenomenon of ZPE, upon which, a lot of > >> the over-unity devices are based. Below is a link to Yu. Ivanov's > >> work on Standing wave compression. What do you think? > >> > >> Inquisitively, > >> > >> Edwin G. Schasteen > >> CFO TAP-TEN Research Foundation International > >> Washington State Branch Office: > >> 12317 118th Ave CTE, Suite #D > >> Puyallup, WA. 98374 > >> 253.445.1970 > >> Mobile: 253.227.5713 > >> egschasteen@myexcel.com > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 15 21:45:45 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA28763; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 21:42:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 21:42:38 -0700 X-Peer-Info: remote-ip 199.125.98.232 local-ip 199.125.85.40 local-name mercury.mv.net User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 00:28:24 -0700 Subject: Joe Lieberman will look into Cold Fusion, Howard Dean Might From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "vortex l eskimo.com" Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id VAA28698 Resent-Message-ID: <"mXTje.0.L17.zIfP_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51887 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear All, In New Hampshire, you can get up close to more than one Presidential candidate in a day or two: On Friday, September 12, 2003, I was a neutral observer in Concord, NH at a "rally" for Vermont Governor Howard Dean at the "Bektash Shrine Center," a non-sectarian charitable fraternal group's place where candidates like Senator Bob Dole relish starting out on their Presidential campaigns. I was there in that very building in 1995 for Dole's NH coming-out party -- I didn't speak to Dole then, but button-holed his colleague, US Senator Grassly of Iowa, to give him the cold fusion spiel. Today Dean was scheduled for 5:15 pm arrival, but came about a half-hour later as the crowd built up and Dean was greeted by a raucous group of 300-plus, I estimate. He gave his Bush-bashing (and harshly anti-Iraq war) speech to the howling and cheering Democrats there. It was difficult being one of the only ones in the room not cheering -- just studying the man and the audience and waiting for my chance to ask the cold fusion question. There were several young people in the audience wearing blue T-shirts with yellow inscriptions, "Clean Energy." They were touting wind and solar power -- and Dean "played" to them in his speech from time to time. He finished abruptly after 30-45 minutes or so. I was very disappointed to find that he was being spirited away, that there was to be no Q&A at the end of his passionate, and at times angry speech. (His face had visibly reddened with anger at several points - the crowd loved it.) But as Dean moved slowly through the roiling mass of well-wishers to the exit, I got the attention of one of his top "handlers" -- a Ms. Catherine Hess, if I heard the name from her lower-echelon co-worker correctly. I handed Hess two items: 1. Our video documentary, "Cold Fusion: Fire from Water" and 2. A copy of the Sept. 5, 2003 Wall Street Journal article by Sharon Begley "Cold Fusion Isn't Dead, It's Just Withering From Scientific Neglect." Hess promised to bring these items to Dean's attention -- that's what handlers do, promise, promise, promise -- just like their candidates, only handlers can throw the items in the trash and get away with it easier. Well, at least we're on record that these two items of critical information ‹ which just might perk Dean's attention -- were provably delivered. Just as was our 2000 "Memorandum to the White House on Cold Fusion" that was delivered to President Clinton (at his request -- it is posted at www.infinite-energy.com ) and then later to President George W. Bush and to Vice President Dick Cheney -- with no perceptible results except "Thank You" notes. With Dean, however, I lucked out and was able to take several digital photos of Ms. Hess holding the copy of the "Cold Fusion: Fire from Water" VHS tape in her arms, the video's colorful box, with title visible, superposed against candidate Dean's torso as he tried to escape the clawing well-wishers -- PROOF of sorts about "what Dean knew and when did he know it" in the matter of cold fusion. We'll probably post it electronically and publish it in Infinite Energy. I tape-recorded the entire rally, as is my practice, just in case Dean said something pertinent to clean energy, or if I got the chance to ask the question about cold fusion. I'm sure all he said about *conventional* renewable energy is in his position papers, but I'll later review what he had to say anyway to see if there were any ironic gems. I suppose that I - or someone else - could attend another Dean rally later on and ask if he has watched the 70-minute tape about cold fusion and what does he think of its message? Or ask perhaps whether he agrees with the Wall Street Journal essay by Ms. Begley. On Sunday night in Manchester, NH (September 14), I attended a 6:00 p.m. "Town Hall Meeting" with Joe Lieberman at the elegant New Hampshire Institute of Arts and Sciences. The spate of Lieberman meetings in NH is dubbed by the campaign, "Operation: Liebermania"! Despite the name, it was a much more sedate, organized crowd -- and seated too, whereas at Dean's rally almost everyone was standing. And Lieberman himself was much less impassioned than Dean -- much less "red meat" thrown out to the anti-Bush crowd, mostly Democrats it seemed. The meeting lasted for two hours as Senator Lieberman answered all manner of questions from both well-dressed and craggy-looking street folk. Unfortunately, I had made the mistake of registering as PRESS, so one of the press-handlers cautioned me as I raised my hand NOT to ask a question as an ordinary citizen might. She advised me that there would be time after the meeting for a session with reporters. As it turned out, there was no formal session and reporters had to try to shove their tape-recorders toward him, as he moved slowly toward the ornate hall's exit, to ask him THEIR questions. This was not deceit, it was disorganization. I followed behind one enterprising reporter who asked Lieberman a sensitive question about the Middle East - generally he was very forthcoming throughout the evening and then. I got my chance, as I squeezed through the people in front of me. Here is my transcription of our brief exchange: ********** Mallove: Senator, one question. I'm Dr. Gene Mallove from Infinite Energy Magazine in Pembroke. Lieberman: Yes. Mallove: I know Jeff Woodburn [a Democratic Party of NH leader and Lieberman supporter who just happens to be renting office space in Pembroke to Infinite Energy as of 2003], and I know your fine colleague Dick Swett. [Note: Dick Swett is the former US Congressman from the NH 2nd District in the early 1990s, who helped us get cold fusion scientists included in Congressional Fusion Energy hearings in 1993, to the dismay of the hot fusioneers. He later became US Ambassador to Denmark. AND: Lieberman had announced at this Town Meeting that Dick Swett was now his campaign's energy advisor! This fact was unknown to us before this meeting, but we were delighted to learn this.] Lieberman: Yeah Mallove: Dick and I and others have struggled for probably 12 years now to get one single question answered by the U.S. Department of Energy. There was a conference in Cambridge recently on this question of cold fusion energy, which you probably don't know much about. But it turns out that it needs review -- the data needs review. There was an outrageous rush-to-judgment in the beginning. Now it needs review. The question is, would you during the course of your campaign as a public service...? Lieberman: Yeah... Mallove: ...which you have been speaking strongly on, energy and innovation... Lieberman: Right, right... Mallove: Would you ask the Department of Energy to re-review the data or the National Academy of Sciences? Lieberman: What's it about? Mallove: Well, it was the subject - here - the subject of the Wall Street Journal editorial [the Begley essay; Mallove hands Lieberman the copy of the editorial]. Just look at this... Lieberman's Press Aide: I have the tape for you on that, Senator, from Infinite Energy, I'll give it to you. [It was given to her by Mallove for the Senator before the Town Meeting began.] Mallove: All you have to do is look at the tape... She has it. Lieberman: We'll look at it, and we'll get back to you. Mallove: Fine! You want two? [Mallove hands a second copy of the tape to Lieberman's aide.] Lieberman: Dick knows about this? Mallove: Dick knows about everything! Ask him about Gene Mallove in New Hampshire... Lieberman: I will. Mallove: Thank you very much. ********** We'll see where this will lead. Stay tuned. That was a good way to end another hectic weekend of magazine editing, family activities, and two political rallies to boot -- which might or might not have any major consequence for the future of cold fusion/low-energy nuclear reactions. It's up to the candidates who are being given the information they need by the New Energy Foundation. We hope to get this topic into the public arena so that it becomes a legitimate topic of discussion in the context of all the other energy issues that will be discussed by Presidential (and other) candidates during the campaign. In this way, there is a chance that the DoE will be forced into an embarrassing review of the now overwhelming evidence for cold fusion/LENR energy. That would be the end of the preposterous charade of the last 14+ years against one of the greatest scientific discoveries in history - one that is critical to our future. Any help that other citizens may be able to render toward this goal would be much appreciated. Sincerely, Dr. Eugene F. Mallove New Energy Foundation, Inc. Infinite Energy Magazine www.infinite-energy.com P.O. Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 Ph: 603-485-4700 Fx: 603-485-4710 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 16 00:36:10 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA30415; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 00:34:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 00:34:23 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3sq1mv059hndamieokacnfs9t43tdj7608@4ax.com> References: <3sq1mv059hndamieokacnfs9t43tdj7608@4ax.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 02:34:35 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: What happened to this thread? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <"QgJj3.0.8R7.-phP_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51889 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >In reply to Robin van Spaandonk's message of Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:13:39 +1000: >Hi, >>In keeping with the list topic => WO0203417. :) > >A short extract:- > "The experimental results of the prototype machine have been documented through >prototype machine generates about 10 times more thermal output than >the amount that would be generated by conventional combustion of the >fuels including the energy in the laser and the high-voltage supply. >" Wow! where can I read about this machine? I corresponded with Michael McDonnough of Plasma Volt, and received the following reply. We are not at this time offering technical literature about the device. When production models are available for sale or lease we will have product technical literature on the site for each system. I have reviewed several proposed inertial propulsion systems while researching my book "The UFO Technology Hackers Manual". The book is now available for download as an ebook or can be mailed in CD format. It contains my research work into space drive technology patents. I also interviewed some of the inventors that were still alive. My focus was not on inertial propulsion but in electric field drive types of propulsion. (no moving parts to fail, very important in space) The ion craft shown on the site is a bit less esoteric in design then some of the designs I have done. If propulsion is of interest to you check out my web page for this at http://www.betavoltaic.com/UFOBOOK/ Thank you for your interest in our technology development. Sincerely, Michael McDonnough From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 16 00:36:16 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA30358; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 00:34:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 00:34:16 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3sq1mv059hndamieokacnfs9t43tdj7608@4ax.com> References: <3sq1mv059hndamieokacnfs9t43tdj7608@4ax.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 02:34:24 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: ORMES Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <"P_xQY.0.AQ7.tphP_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51888 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Someone asked how to convert ORMES into the metallic form. According to David Hudson if the ORMES are placed in an electric arc, in about 1.5 to 2 minutes the metal will show up on a spectrograph. I assume this means that they have been converted into a metallic form, of course you know what happens when you assume. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 16 01:09:50 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id BAA14325; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 01:07:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 01:07:01 -0700 Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 18:06:28 +1000 From: Robin van Spaandonk Subject: Re: What happened to this thread? In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <1qgdmvkqua2k3kh1pb3523gsqg72n1mnjp@4ax.com> Organization: Improving MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <3sq1mv059hndamieokacnfs9t43tdj7608@4ax.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"cM3Gr1.0.lV3.bIiP_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51890 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to thomas malloy's message of Tue, 16 Sep 2003 02:34:35 -0500: Hi, [snip] This isn't the PlasmaVolt patent. I suggest you check it out on the European patent server. To answer the question in the subject line - it died of neglect. >>In reply to Robin van Spaandonk's message of Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:13:39 +1000: >>Hi, >>>In keeping with the list topic => WO0203417. :) >> >>A short extract:- >> >"The experimental results of the prototype machine have been documented through > >>prototype machine generates about 10 times more thermal output than >>the amount that would be generated by conventional combustion of the >>fuels including the energy in the laser and the high-voltage supply. >>" > >Wow! where can I read about this machine? > >I corresponded with Michael McDonnough of Plasma Volt, and received >the following reply. > >We are not at this time offering technical literature about the device. When >production models are available for sale or lease we will have product >technical literature on the site for each system. > >I have reviewed several proposed inertial propulsion systems while >researching my book "The UFO Technology Hackers Manual". >The book is now available for download as an ebook or can be mailed in CD >format. It contains my research work into space drive technology patents. I >also interviewed some of the inventors that were still alive. My focus was >not on inertial propulsion but in electric field drive types of propulsion. >(no moving parts to fail, very important in space) > >The ion craft shown on the site is a bit less esoteric in design then some >of the designs I have done. >If propulsion is of interest to you check out my web page for this at >http://www.betavoltaic.com/UFOBOOK/ > >Thank you for your interest in our technology development. > >Sincerely, >Michael McDonnough Regards, R. van Spaandonk When you are counting the dead, remember who voted for the man that made it all possible. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 16 12:47:28 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA01915; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 12:43:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 12:43:20 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:50:43 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: What happened to this thread? Resent-Message-ID: <"4L3d03.0.oT.NVsP_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51891 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:34 AM 9/16/3, thomas malloy wrote: >Wow! where can I read about this machine? Apparently not on vortex. Not enough info posted here even to justify the money to obtain a copy of the patent. If you don't care enough to post any information how is it reasonable to expect people to pay money to read about it? There is no reason so far to expect this patent is any different from hundreds of other "free energy" patents and other kinds of hype that exist but are not making anybody any real product income. Besides, there is plenty of material for serious discussion at . Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 16 13:19:09 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA24376; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 13:15:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 13:15:22 -0700 Message-ID: <005f01c37c8e$7a99b5c0$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Tritium, the hydrino and Helium-3 Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 13:09:47 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_005C_01C37C53.CDACF5A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: <"BTSDf.0.jy5.PzsP_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51892 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005C_01C37C53.CDACF5A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tritium is the only radioactive isotope of hydrogen (half-life of 12.32 = years, decay rate of 5.626 % per year). Tritium is produced in fusion of = deuterium, but it is so "unlikely" in its nuclear makeup that it raises = certain questions. That is, the ratio of protons to neutrons of 2 is way = out of line with every other element in the periodic table. For light = elements such as Helium and Oxygen the ratio is typically 1:1. For = heavier elements such as Lead or Uranium, the ratio is closer to 1:1.6. = When a nucleus has too many neutrons it is in a high energy state and = tries to reach a lower energy state by emitting radiation in one form or = another.=20 If one didn't know better, and tried to figure out the half-life of = tritium based on comparisons with other elements and their P/N ratios, = one would probably guess that the lifetime should be in picoseconds. Yet = it is over 12 years. What is going on that could give it such abnormal = stability? Also, there are two further (maybe more)mysterious and = unexplained peculiarities of tritium decay, the "Reifenschweiler Effect" = and the "Tritium Lorentz Invariance anomaly" Factoid #2- Typically, the atmosphere includes five parts per million of helium - = which is so volatile that we just see what is "passing through" from = earth to space. The transit time is short. This helium consists of two = isotopes, helium 3 and helium 4. While helium 4 is produced constantly = in the earth's crust due to the decay of uranium and thorium, the only = new helium-3 must come from tritium decay. There are "supposedly" = primordial sources of the isotope that have been buried too deep in the = earth's mantle to outgas, at least that is the conventional explanation = - but, given the extreme volatility of the gas and the constant turnover = of earth's crust, it is quite surprising that we find about one part in = 10,000 of He-3 in samples of helium from atmospheric sources, and many = times that amount in some natural gas deposits. IOW there appears to be = a lot more He-3 around than there should be. We find He-3 on the moon, but all of this is attributable to the = primordial isotope that has be frozen in rocks for 3 billion years. = There has been no turnover of a molten mantle on the moon for that long. = Stellar processes appear to have little or no impact on the amount of = helium-3 in the Galaxy, therefore, since it has not been created or = destroyed in any appreciable amounts, then what we detect on earth must = have been either created by the Big Bang or else there is an active = source of D+D fusion ongoing on earth. But we find way too much for it = to be of primordial origin, or at least it would seem that way to some. Many have suggested that this source of tritium/He-3 is a "natural" = example of ongoing LENR occurring in the earth's crust. Factoid #3- But here is where the story gets "curiouser and curiouser." Recently = geologists have started to find another anomaly in those very same = fumaroles and other gas emissions where high amounts of either tritium = or He-3 are found. That anomaly is in strontium, both in its relative = presence (there should be only 8 ppm in seawater) and in its isotopic = ratio anomalies. The chemical similarity of strontium (Sr) and calcium (Ca) means that = the calcium carbonate shells can contain high concentrations of Sr (up = to one part per 1000). Sea shells record the strontium isotope ratio of = seawater and it is possible to use the sediment record to study the = evolution of strontium isotopes in oceans, as well as He-3 presence. The = major input of Sr into oceans is hydrothermal fluid from mid-ocean = ridges. As mentioned, often the Sr isotope anomaly and the tritium/He-3 = anomalies are found hand-in-hand. Factoid #4- Strontium is probably the most active and studied hydrino catalyst. = Mills has published many studies showing hydrino formation in the = presence of strontium. Iwamura of Mitsubishi Heavy Industries of Japan = has also extensively studied Sr in regard to tritium, following the = Mills' disclosures and published extensively about the Sr=3D=3D>T = connection (without attribution to Mills, it should be noted). In = fairness, it should be noted that Mills himself seems to have missed the = connection. All of these things could be coincidental, but there is one thing that I = have never heard mentioned that could "close the loop" regarding the = first point mentioned above - that being the unusually long half-life of = tritium. Is it remotely possible that the tritium nucleus is "not exactly" = composed of a proton and two neutrons but is instead a deuterium nucleus = that is bound to a "virtual neutron" a maximally shrunken hydrino. If = so, it could be expected that the nucleus would have unexpected = properties, due to the fact that the virtual neutron has lost quite a = bit of energy in shrinkage, and perhaps that loss accounts for the = extraordinary stability of tritium? Just a thought for the day... Jones ------=_NextPart_000_005C_01C37C53.CDACF5A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tritium is the only radioactive isotope of hydrogen (half-life of = 12.32=20 years, decay rate of 5.626 % per year). Tritium is produced in fusion of = deuterium, but it is so "unlikely" in its nuclear makeup that it raises = certain=20 questions. That is, the ratio of protons to neutrons of 2 is way = out of=20 line with every other element in the periodic table. For light elements = such as=20 Helium and Oxygen the ratio is typically 1:1. For heavier elements such = as Lead=20 or Uranium, the ratio is closer to 1:1.6. When a nucleus has too many = neutrons=20 it is in a high energy state and tries to reach a lower energy = state by=20 emitting radiation in one form or another. 
 
If one didn't know better, and tried to figure out the half-life of = tritium=20 based on comparisons with other elements and their P/N ratios, one = would=20 probably guess that the lifetime should be in picoseconds. Yet it is = over 12=20 years. What is going on that could give it such abnormal stability? = Also,=20 there are two further (maybe more)mysterious and unexplained = peculiarities of=20 tritium decay, the "Reifenschweiler Effect" and the "Tritium Lorentz Invariance anomaly"
 
Factoid #2-
 
Typically, the atmosphere includes five parts per million of helium = - which is so volatile that we just see what is "passing through" = from=20 earth to space. The transit time is short. This helium consists of = two=20 isotopes, helium 3 and helium 4. While helium 4 is produced constantly = in the=20 earth's crust due to the decay of uranium and thorium, the = only new=20 helium-3 must come from tritium decay. There are "supposedly" primordial = sources=20 of the isotope that have been buried too deep in the earth's mantle to = outgas,=20 at least that is the conventional explanation - but, given the extreme=20 volatility of the gas and the constant turnover of earth's crust, it is = quite=20 surprising that we find about one part in 10,000 of He-3 in samples of = helium=20 from atmospheric sources, and many times that amount in some natural gas = deposits. IOW there appears to be a lot more He-3 around than there = should=20 be.
 
We find He-3 on the moon, but all of this is attributable to the = primordial=20 isotope that has be frozen in rocks for 3 billion years. There has been = no=20 turnover of a molten mantle on the moon for that long. Stellar processes = appear=20 to have little or no impact on the amount of helium-3 in the Galaxy, = therefore,=20 since it has not been created or destroyed in any appreciable = amounts, then=20 what we detect on earth must have been either created by the = Big Bang=20 or else there is an active source of D+D fusion ongoing on earth. But we = find=20 way too much for it to be of primordial origin, or at least it = would seem=20 that way to some.
 
Many have suggested that this source of tritium/He-3 is a "natural" = example=20 of ongoing LENR occurring in the earth's crust.
 
Factoid #3-
 
But here is where the story gets "curiouser and curiouser." = Recently=20 geologists have started to find another anomaly in those very same = fumaroles and=20 other gas emissions where high amounts of either tritium or He-3 are = found. That=20 anomaly is in strontium, both in its relative presence (there should be = only 8=20 ppm in seawater) and in its isotopic ratio anomalies.
 
The chemical similarity of strontium (Sr) and calcium (Ca) means = that the=20 calcium carbonate shells can contain high concentrations of Sr (up to = one part=20 per 1000). Sea shells record the strontium isotope ratio of seawater = and it=20 is possible to use the sediment record to study the evolution of = strontium=20 isotopes in oceans, as well as He-3 presence. The major input of Sr into = oceans=20 is hydrothermal fluid from mid-ocean ridges. As mentioned, often the Sr = isotope=20 anomaly and the tritium/He-3 anomalies are found hand-in-hand.
 
Factoid #4-
 
Strontium is probably the most active and studied hydrino catalyst. = Mills=20 has published many studies showing hydrino formation in the presence of=20 strontium.  Iwamura of Mitsubishi Heavy Industries of Japan = has also=20 extensively studied Sr in regard to tritium, following the Mills'=20 disclosures and published extensively about=20 the Sr=3D=3D>T connection (without attribution to Mills, it = should be=20 noted). In fairness, it should be noted that Mills himself seems to have = missed=20 the connection.
 
All of these things could be coincidental, but there is one thing = that I=20 have never heard mentioned that could "close the loop" regarding the = first point=20 mentioned above - that being the unusually long half-life of = tritium.
 
Is it remotely possible that the tritium nucleus is "not exactly" = composed=20 of a proton and two neutrons but is instead a deuterium nucleus that is = bound to=20 a "virtual neutron" a maximally shrunken hydrino. If so, it could be = expected=20 that the nucleus would have unexpected properties, due to = the fact=20 that the virtual neutron has lost quite a bit of energy in shrinkage,=20 and perhaps that loss accounts for the extraordinary stability of=20 tritium?
 
Just a thought for the day...
 
Jones
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_005C_01C37C53.CDACF5A0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 16 14:25:16 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAB19801; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 14:22:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 14:22:39 -0700 X-Peer-Info: remote-ip 199.125.98.193 local-ip 199.125.85.40 local-name mercury.mv.net User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 17:21:16 -0700 Subject: Good News -- The Concord Monitor newspaper published the Cold Fusion Question today - 9/16/03 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: Eugene Mallove Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA19575 Resent-Message-ID: <"X9lVX1.0.5r4.TytP_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51893 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The Concord Monitor newspaper published my letter today, Tuesday, Sept. 16, 2003, page B4 -- Opinion page (see below) in slightly edited form. Now all the Presidential candidates can be said to have been ASKED -- even ones who have just come out of the woodwork or who are about to. Letters in the Concord Monitor, one of New Hampshire's leading newspapers, are very definitely monitored by all the candidate camps. ******** Exact form of the printed letter in the Concord Monitor This will be my question to all presidential candidates that I happen to encounter during the New Hampshire primary season: I¹m Dr. Eugene Mallove of Infinite Energy Magazine in Concord. I¹d like to ask your position on an issue that transcends and yet encompasses all the other issues that you and other candidates talk about ‹ peace, freedom, the economy, healthcare, the environment, and - of course - energy independence: During your campaign will you demand a review by the US Department of Energy or by the National Academy of Sciences of the now overwhelming body of scientific evidence that supports cold fusion/low-energy nuclear reactions energy? This is clean, abundant energy from water, a scientific discovery made in the United States and announced in 1989 ‹ and then crushed, as it was being confirmed, by arrogant vested academic and bureaucratic interests. A Yes or No answer will do! If anyone wishes to post this question elsewhere, or to ask it himself or herself of any candidate, I would be thrilled. Please let me know if any responses are received from any of the presidential candidates or their senior advisors. We will post responses on our web site and elsewhere. Eugene F. Mallove Pembroke ************************************************* End of the printed letter I hope this Concord Monitor publication prompts some widespread action by citizens and candidates. Best wishes, Dr. Eugene F. Mallove New Energy Foundation, Inc. www.infinite-energy.com Infinite Energy Magazine P.O. Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 Ph: 603-485-4700 Fx: 603-485-4710 **************** From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 17 00:35:23 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA14040; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 00:32:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 00:32:37 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: laser excited plasma CF device? Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 03:54:22 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"mRzSE1.0.DR3.Ku0Q_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51894 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All. Robin posted this application a few days ago, WO203417A2, and it seemed relevant to several of the threads seen here over the past few months. Here's the complete PDF document. http://www.kpnconsulting.com/vortex/WO0203417A2.pdf For Horace, whom perhaps is unable to view file formats more complicated than text, the claims appear below. No description I'm afraid, the complete document is ~75 pages long. Curiously this document is misfiled on the new Espacenet3 server. What has any of this to do with UFO's and Betavoltaics? Please at least review the relevant material before opining. By the way Robin, what brought your attention to this application??? K. Claims of WO0203417 What is claimed is: 1. A method for creating an energy source comprising: creating a hot gas in a reactor vessel by combusting diesel fuel and air in the presence of at least one mid-Z element ; directing and maintaining a laser and high voltage discharge into the hot gas thereby creating a plasma ; and creating a rotating gas vortex surrounding the plasma, thereby producing thermal energy. 2. The method of claim 1, wherein the thermal energy is produced so that the net energy gain is at least equal to a factor of about 1 over the total input power to the reactor vessel. 3. The method of claim 1, wherein the at least one mid-Z element comprises at least one of lithium, beryllium, boron, nitrogen, and fluorine. 4. The method of claim 1, wherein the at least one mid-Z element is boron. 5. The method of claim 1, further comprising: raising the temperature of the plasma at least to or above a critical temperature ; and discontinuing the laser. 6. The method of claim 1, wherein the combustion fuel is mixed with water. 7. The method of claim 1, wherein the high voltage discharge is discontinued when the net energy gain is at least equal to a factor of about 1 over the total input power to the reactor vessel. 8. The method of claim 1, wherein the laser is directed such that it is focused approximately at the center of the reactor vessel in the region of the plasma. 9. The method of claim 1, wherein the pressure within the reactor vessel is above atmospheric. 10. The method of claim 1, wherein the pressure within the reactor vessel is above atmospheric and up to about 400 atmospheres. 11. The method of claim 1, wherein the pressure within the reactor vessel is less than atmospheric pressure. 12. The method of claim 1, wherein the pressure within the reactor vessel is in equilibrium with the pressure outside of the reactor vessel. 13. The method of claim 1, wherein the rotating gas vortex comprises at least one of oxygen and air. 14. The method of claim 1, wherein the at least one mid-Z element is mixed with the diesel fuel before the diesel fuel is introduced into the reactor vessel. 15. The method of claim 1, wherein the at least one mid-Z element is added to the reactor independently of the diesel fuel. 16. The method of claim 1, wherein the at least one mid-Z element is mixed with the vortex gases before the vortex gases are introduced into the reactor vessel or as the vortex gases are introduced into the reactor vessel. 17. The method of claim 1, wherein the at least one mid-Z element is placed in the reactor vessel before the diesel fuel is combusted. 18. The method of claim 1, wherein the at least one mid-Z element is placed in the reactor vessel as part of the composition of the wall of the reactor vessel. 19. The method of claim 1, wherein the laser controls the position of the plasma in the reactor vessel. 20. The method of claim 1, further comprising injecting the diesel fuel into a combustion zone of the reactor vessel from at least one of a plurality of points around the combustion zone. 21. The method of claim 1, further comprising injecting the diesel fuel into a combustion zone of the reactor vessel from at least one of a plurality of points placed circumferentially around the combustion zone. 22. The method of claim 1, further comprising injecting a gas vortex around the plasma from at least one of a plurality of points around the combustion zone. 23. The method of claim 1, further comprising: obtaining heated exhaust from the reactor vessel ; and generating electricity from the heated exhaust. 24. The method of claim 23, wherein the reactor vessel is substantially closed. 25. The method of claim 24, wherein the heated gas exhaust is used as the main energy source to drive a turbine, a jet engine or a rocket engine. 26. The method of claim 1, further comprising: circulating a substance through channels in one or more vessel walls to transfer heat from the reactor vessel walls to the substance; and driving a turbine and electric generator with thermal energy extracted from the heated substance. 27. The method of claim 26, wherein the reactor vessel is substantially closed. 28. The method of claim 1, further comprising: controlling the rate of introduction of diesel fuel into the reactor vessel after creation of the plasma ; controlling the magnitude of the flow rate of the gas vortex stabilizing the plasma; controlling the magnitude of the laser directed into the plasma; and controlling the magnitude of the high voltage applied to the plasma. 29. The method of claim 1, further comprising: bringing the plasma up to or above a critical temperature; and discontinuing the laser. 30. A method for creating an energy source comprising: creating a hot gas in a reactor vessel by heating a mixture of water and air in the presence of at least one mid-Z element ; directing and maintaining a laser and high voltage discharge into the hot gas thereby creating a plasma; and creating a rotating gas vortex surrounding the plasma; thereby producing thermal energy. 31. The method of claim 30, wherein the thermal energy is produced so that the net energy gain is at least equal to a factor of about 1. 32. The method of claim 30, wherein the at least one mid-Z element is selected from the group consisting of lithium, beryllium, boron, nitrogen, and fluorine. 33. The method of claim 30, wherein the at least one mid-Z element is boron. 34. An apparatus comprising: a reactor vessel including: interior ceramic walls; at least one injector for injecting fuel into the reactor ; at least one injector for injecting oxygen into the reactor; a source of at least one mid-Z element; a laser; a crystal laser target; a high voltage DC source for which the crystal laser target is a cathode; an anode for the high voltage source substantially opposite the cathode; at least one injector for injecting a gas to create a rotating gas vortex; a reactor vessel cooling system; and an exhaust port. 35. The apparatus of claim 34, wherein the fuel comprises at least one of diesel fuel, ethyl alcohol, or water. 36. The apparatus of claim 34, wherein the laser is focused approximately at the center of the reactor vessel. 37. The apparatus of claim 34, wherein the crystal laser target further comprises a plurality of secondary crystals located within a ceramic container included in the reactor vessel. 38. The apparatus of claim 34, wherein the crystal laser target further comprises: a ceramic container; at least one crystal located within the ceramic container; and at least one electrode, in electrical contact with at least one crystal. 39. An apparatus comprising: a reactor vessel; at least one fuel injector for injecting fuel into the reactor vessel; at least one injector for injecting an oxidizer into the reactor vessel; a source of at least one mid-Z element; a source of radiation; a target for the source of radiation; a voltage source for which the target for the source of radiation is a cathode; an anode for the voltage source substantially opposite the cathode; at least one injector for injecting a gas to create a rotating gas vortex; a reactor vessel cooling system; and an exhaust port. 40. The apparatus of claim 39, wherein the source of radiation is a source of electromagnetic radiation. 41. The apparatus of claim 39, wherein the external source of radiation is at least one of a microwave source or a laser. 42. The apparatus of claim 39, wherein the source of radiation is a microwave source. 43. The apparatus of claim 39, wherein the source of radiation is a microwave source. 44. The apparatus of claim 39, wherein the source of radiation is at least one of a microwave source or a laser. 45. The apparatus of claim 39, wherein the reactor vessel has an open structure geometry that provides the support for creating, and maintaining a self sustaining plasma structure. 46. The apparatus of claim 39, further comprising an external heat source. 47. A method for creating an energy source comprising: creating a hot gas in a reactor vessel by combusting fuel and air in the presence of at least one mid-Z element; directing and maintaining a source of radiation and high voltage discharge into the hot gas thereby creating a plasma; and controlling the stability of the plasma, thereby producing thermal energy. 48. The method of claim 47 wherein the thermal energy is produced so that the net energy gain is at least about 1. 49. The method of claim 47, wherein the source of radiation is at least one of a microwave source, a radio frequency source, a laser, or electron beams. 50. The method of claim 47, wherein the fuel comprises at least a hydrocarbon. 51. The method of claim 50, wherein the hydrocarbon comprises at least one of diesel, kerosene, methane, gasoline, or fuel oil. 52. The method of claim 47, wherein the plasma is stabilized by a rotating gas vortex injected into the reactor vessel between the plasma and the walls of the reactor vessel. 53. The method of claim 47, wherein the gas vortex comprises oxygen. 54. The method of claim 47, wherein the gas vortex comprises air. 55. The method of claim 47, wherein the at least one mid-Z element is mixed with the fuel before the fuel is introduced into the reactor vessel. 56. The method of claim 47, wherein the at least one mid-Z element is injected into the reactor vessel independently of the fuel. 57. The method of claim 47, wherein the stability of the plasma is controlled by creating a rotating gas vortex surrounding the plasma. 58. The method of claim 57, wherein the at least one mid-Z element is mixed with the vortex gases either before the vortex gases are introduced into the reactor vessel or at the time the vortex gases are introduced into the reactor vessel. 59. The method of claim 47, wherein the at least one mid-Z element is introduced into the reactor vessel before the fuel is introduced into the reactor vessel. 60. The method of claim 47, wherein the at least one mid-Z element is placed in the reactor vessel as part of the composition of the wall of the reactor. 61. The method of claim 47, wherein the source of radiation is used to control the position of the plasma in the reactor vessel. 62. The method of claim 47, further comprising injecting the fuel into a combustion zone of the reactor vessel from a plurality of points around a combustion zone of the reactor vessel. 63. The method of claim 47, further comprising injecting the fuel into a combustion zone of the reactor vessel from at least one of a plurality of points placed circumferentially around a combustion zone of the reactor vessel. 64. The method of claim 47, further comprising injecting a gas vortex around the plasma from a plurality of points around a combustion zone of the reactor vessel. 65. The method of claim 47, further comprising injecting a gas vortex around the plasma from at least one of a plurality of points placed circumferentially around a combustion zone of the reactor vessel. 66. The method of claim 47, further comprising: creating a fusion reaction within a substantially closed reactor vessel; obtaining heated exhaust from the reactor vessel; and generating electricity from the heated exhaust. 67. The method of claim 47, further comprising: creating a fusion reaction within a substantially closed reactor vessel ; circulating a substance through channels in one or more of the reactor vessel wall to transfer heat from the reactor vessel wall to the substance; and driving at least one of a turbine or an electric generator with thermal energy extracted from the heated substance 68. The method of claim 47, further comprising: creating a fusion reaction within a substantially closed reactor vessel; using the heated gas exhaust as the main energy source to drive a turbine, a jet engine, a rocket engine, or a thermo-electric device. 69. The method of claim 47, wherein at least one additive comprising at least one of lithium, beryllium, boron, nitrogen, and fluorine is added to the fuel. 70. The method of claim 47, further comprising controlling at least one of : the rate of introduction of fuel into the plasma; the rate of energy extraction from the reactor vessel; the magnitude of the gas vortex surrounding the plasma ; the magnitude of the laser directed into the hot gas; and the magnitude of the high voltage applied to the system. 71. The method of claim 47, further comprising: bringing the plasma at least up to a critical temperature; and discontinuing the source of radiation. 72. A method for creating a steady state energy source comprising: creating a hot gas in a reactor vessel by combusting a source of hydrogen ions and air in the presence of at least one mid-Z element; directing and maintaining an external source of radiation into the hot gas thereby creating a plasma; and controlling the stability of the plasma, thereby producing thermal energy. 73. The method of claim 72, wherein the thermal energy is produced so that the net energy gain is at least about 1. 74. The method of claim 1, wherein the thermal energy is produced so that the net energy gain is at least equal to a factor of about 10 over the input power to the reactor vessel. 75. The method of claim 30, wherein the thermal energy is produced so that the net energy gain is at least equal to a factor of about 10 over the input power to the reactor vessel. Horace writes: Apparently not on vortex. Not enough info posted here even to justify the money to obtain a copy of the patent. If you don't care enough to post any information how is it reasonable to expect people to pay money to read about it? There is no reason so far to expect this patent is any different from hundreds of other "free energy" patents and other kinds of hype that exist but are not making anybody any real product income. Besides, there is plenty of material for serious discussion at . From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 17 07:54:42 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA17306; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 07:51:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 07:51:59 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 06:59:28 -0800 To: , From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: laser excited plasma CF device? Resent-Message-ID: <"agTb8.0.JE4.EK7Q_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51895 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 3:54 AM 9/17/3, Keith Nagel wrote: >Hi All. > >Robin posted this application a few days ago, >WO203417A2, and it seemed relevant to several >of the threads seen here over the past few >months. Here's the complete PDF document. > >http://www.kpnconsulting.com/vortex/WO0203417A2.pdf Thanks for the reference! Nice to see some real content. > >For Horace, whom perhaps is unable to view >file formats more complicated than text, the Actually I have no problem viewing URL references etc., I simply do that on a different mahcine from the one on which I receive email. My main complaints with HTML in email posted on newslists are that it (1) adds great bulk while rarely improving content, (2) carries with it the threat of virus or worm propagation, and (3) contributes to the loss of nettiqutte, especially with regard to author identification and the use of multiple ">" symbols (or at least the email applications that create HTML output it appears do so). I think email servers should support optional rejection of emails (i.e. provide a rejection profile) based upon combinations of source, attachment types, HTML content, and specific string combinations in the content. >claims appear below. No description I'm afraid, >the complete document is ~75 pages long. >Curiously this document is misfiled on >the new Espacenet3 server. That must be why it appeared to only be available on a fee basis? As for the content of the patent, it is unfortunately still not possible to tell if there is really something there. Most of the content of the patent appears to be only imagined or deduced. The example of an actual test consists of only a 5 minute observation of *power* flows. OU claims based on 5 minutes of *power* measurement and no overall total *energy* balance is of course almost laughable. This is a novice level mistake in calorimetry. It also is an indication that the device might not be capable of sustained operation because the advantage of providing data for a long period of operation is obviously so great. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 17 10:05:57 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA20102; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:02:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:02:30 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" , "Horace Heffner" Subject: RE: laser excited plasma CF device? Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:24:24 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"YjUuK2.0.0w4.bE9Q_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51896 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi. Horace writes: >That must be why it appeared to only be available on a fee basis? No such thing. Espacenet3 is the new interface to the Espace system. The older Espacenet2 is the link Robin posted, and works fine. They're still ironing out the bugs in 3, but there are nice new features that make it well work investigating. All are free services, although pointing clicking and saving 75 pages will make your pinkies sore. Consider this for better results. http:/www.ipdiscover.com >As for the content of the patent, it is unfortunately still not possible to >tell if there is really something there. Most of the content of the patent >appears to be only imagined or deduced. Yup, it's a patent application, not a scientific paper. The authors are pissing on everything to claim territory, which is as it should be for this sort of thing. I was not too enthusiastic about the tests disclosed, but again that's typical of these things and one would need to find out more about the principal inventors and what else may have been published. Some starter links CRT Holdings Inc. http://www.dfjeplanet.com/dfj_pages/portfolio/right_portfolio_usa.html Rick Spielman http://www.ap.columbia.edu/SMproceedings/ Perhaps Robin can point us to more? Obviously something was built and tested, and someone went to the trouble of filing, so more must be out there. K. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 17 16:41:13 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA28510; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:36:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:36:24 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rmuha@mail.minimal.com Message-Id: Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 19:36:08 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: ralph muha Subject: Fun with fusion: Freshman's nuclear fusion reactor has USU physics faculty in awe Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"DvUYg1.0.Oz6.u_EQ_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51897 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,510054502,00.html Philo Farnsworth's fusor, built by a college freshman... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 18 00:42:57 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA27713; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:41:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:41:04 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [130.226.56.2] X-Originating-Email: [kemykle@hotmail.com] From: "Kjeld Engvild" To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Super abundant vacancies Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 09:40:31 +0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Sep 2003 07:40:32.0151 (UTC) FILETIME=[239DE270:01C37DB8] Resent-Message-ID: <"QJZQh3.0.sm6.F6MQ_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51898 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The upcoming Hubbert peak of maximum oil production in the world around 2005-2010 makes an increased effort in energy research imperative. Recent results in metallurgy and hydrogen storage in palladium and other metals suggest that several deuterium atoms can be squeezed closer together in vacancies than in deuterium molecules. This suggests a possible mechanism for cold fusion which lies within the framework of present-day physics Super abundant vacancies filled with hydrogen (deuterium) occur in many transition period metals (palladium, iron, nickel, copper) at high temperature and hydrogen pressure. This has been shown by the group of Fukai, a major authority on hydrogen in metals; the superabundant phase seems to be the thermodynamically stable phase under these conditions. Under ordinary laboratory conditions super abundant vacancies form when metals are deposited electrolytically. In some cases the hydrogen filled vacancies form a regular lattice like the Cu3Au lattice: Ni3Vac, that can be observed by x-ray diffraction. There are large disagreements about how many hydrogen/deuterium can sit in such a vacancy of about 10 cubic-angstroms, and how close they can sit together. The classical opinion is 6 deuteriums, sitting further from each other than in the deuterium molecule (Nordlander et al. 1989); more recent research suggests 2 or 3 (4) deuteriums. However, 3 D's should sit only 0.32 angstrom, and 4 deuteriums only 0.25 angstroms from each other (Tateyama and Ohno 2003)?? It is known that if two deuterons are placed within 0.1 angstrom of each other the fusion rate would be about one million per sec per mole (Cottingham 1989). It is also known that three-body boson (efimov) interactions can have longer range than two boson interactions. Deuterium filled super abundant vacancies would open up for multibody fusion as suggested by Takahashi of Osaka University (Isobe, Takahashi 2002) according to the following schemes: D + D + D -> helium-4 + D, D + D + D -> tritium + helium-3, and D + D + D + D -> 4-helium + 4-helium. The multibody fusion hypothesis explains rather neatly the observations that cold fusion yields mainly helium-4, much less tritium and almost no neutrons. The super abundant vacancy hypothesis explains the long lagphases before cold fusion is observed, and it explains why cold fusion is best observed when palladium is deposited electrolytically together with deuterium as observed by Miles (lenr-canr site). References: http://lenr-canr.org/. Fukai, Y. (2003) J. Alloys Compounds 356-357, 263-269. Cottingham (1989) J. Physics G. 15, L157. Nordlander et al. (1989) Phys. Rev. B. 40, 1990-1992, Tateyama and Ohno (2003), Phys. Rev. B 67, 174105. Isobe Takahashi et al (2002) Japn. J. Appl. Physics 41, 1546-1556. Kemykle _________________________________________________________________ Få gode tilbud direkte i din mailbox http://jatak.msn.dk From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 18 07:42:06 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA17909; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 07:40:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 07:40:13 -0700 Message-ID: <004601c37df1$ffe51760$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" References: Subject: Re: laser excited plasma CF device? Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 07:33:53 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id HAA17848 Resent-Message-ID: <"psr8U1.0.cN4.CFSQ_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51899 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel writes, Subject: laser excited plasma CF device? > Robin posted this application a few days ago, > WO203417A2, and it seemed relevant to several > of the threads seen here over the past few > months. One of those threads is the Letts-Cravens experiment, but I wonder if there is also some relevance to the post of a couple of weeks back about *supersition of two frequencies,* one being in the infrared, (which can usually be supplied as a product of heating), the other being a laser at a resonant frequency to the infrared. In that experiment, a narrow frequency of IR wavelength resonates water (steam) into a state that makes it *receptive* to complete dissociation - which is done by using a laser tuned at 248 nm (in the UV range) - those UV photons do the actual dissociation. The UV pulse apparently is a quarter wavelength overtone of the IR pulse. Of course, actual fusion should be a far cry from water-splitting in terms of energy required, but apparently not LENR fusion if done on an appropriate substrate, which is the case in both of the previously mentioned phenomena, so there could be some relevance to supersition of resonant frequencies in LENR as well. The UV pulse apparently is a quarter wavelength overtone of the IR pulse. Is there something special about the quarter-wavelength overtone, other than the "beat frequency" will be more regular and predictable? Jones Posting from 8/16: In a 1999 University of Colorado doctoral thesis by Ondreij Votava entitled "Vibrationally Mediated Photodissociation of Water...." There are some provocative ideas related to photolysis. http://jilawww.colorado.edu/www/sro/thesis/votava/bib.pdf In his experiments Votava found that overlapping two photonically excited states of water causes the bonds to become repulsive. But this is FAR different from the Keely vibrational stuff as we are talking overlapping wavelengths in the IR and UV ranges. By tuning to a *precise* IR wavelength to excite H2O molecules, a proton will stretch away from an OH but not break. This is not at all surprising - as when you consider the water molecule's shape, this is like pulling on one of Mickey Mouse's ears. But the IR wavelength only resonates the water into a state that makes it *receptive* to further complete dissociation - which is done by using a laser tuned at 248 nm (in the UV range) - those UV photons do the actual dissociation. The UV pulse apparently is a quarter wavelength overtone of the IR pulse. Since theoretically both the IR and UV could be supplied by filtering sunlight, this opens up some fantastic possibilities for higher efficiency solar conversion. Going from solar > electric > hydrogen or wind > electric > hydrogen is extremely inefficient. Since IR is involved here, it means that almost all of the "rejected" solar spectrum could be used to raise steam near the resonant range. Then only the precise frequency IR could be filtered out to lock steam into a pre-plasma at around 1 micron. As for the UV, that is a little harder. A few possibilities are evident, but I haven't read the whole thesis yet. However, I am very surprised that wavelengths that are so enormously out of proportion to the size of the water molecule can do this! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 18 07:58:09 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA29009; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 07:56:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 07:56:00 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030918102418.00bab300@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 10:55:59 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Let's contribute money to Vortex and LENR-CANR.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"sQyeb3.0.B57.0USQ_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51900 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Periodically someone posts a message here suggesting that readers should contribute some money to Bill Beaty to defray the cost of this discussion group and his marvelous web site: http://amasci.com Let me suggest you also contribute money to me, Jed, to defray the cost of LENR-CANR.org. It adds up. I just had to buy a copy of PowerPoint, and I am running out of bandwidth and storage space, so I may have to pay $35 per month. Why not mail us both a $10 bill? Cash works for me. (I didn't clear this message with Bill, so he might not be expecting it.) What I would really like is something like the scene at the end of the movie "It Could Happen to You" when all the money arrives in the mail. The mailing addresses are: William J. Beaty 7540 20th Ave NW Seattle, WA 98117 Jed Rothwell 1954 Airport Road Suite 204 Chamblee, GA 30341 - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 19 00:51:43 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA25428; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 00:49:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 00:49:54 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy@metro.lakes.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 02:50:05 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: How much of this is true? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <"7khkH2.0.6D6.XKhQ_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51901 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John Rappaport of No More Fake News.com is back on Coast to Coast AM. He has raised a number of issues, some of which are germane to Vortex, and some such as the Builderbergers which are not. The Correa / Riech issue reminded me of the heated discussion that Eugene and Jed got into. I thought that Eugene was going to fire Jed, well I suppose that good help is hard to find. Then there is the cancer issue. I have a cancer remediation method, I find that most people are unwilling to trust someone who doesn't have an MD behind their name when it comes to treatment, regardless of how badly the Allopaths butcher them up. The subject of the missing Tesla papers came up. Does anybody think that after half a century there is anything left to be rediscovered? Mr. Rappaport also suggested that the big black out was caused by a special Ops team in an effort to get public funding for upgrading the power grid. AFAIK, there is no evidence to support that. He was going on about cohering the energy of the vacuum. I'm going to tell him that if he ever finds a machine that will do that will he please tell me about it. Has anyone ever heard of a Canadian group that is trying to bring a new design of turbine, I think it is the Davis Turbine to market? It can be placed in a stream and the movement of water, without any head pressure from a dam, it can generate energy, It sounds like a Shauberger Turbine. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 19 07:10:54 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA02022; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:08:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:08:06 -0700 From: Yakov Reply-To: rockcast@earthlink.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: How much of this is true? Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:09:51 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309191009.51873.rockcast@earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: <"ToEC-3.0.KV.5tmQ_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51902 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: test of my e-mail system From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 19 07:30:27 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA15186; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:28:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:28:09 -0700 From: Yakov Reply-To: rockcast@earthlink.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: off topic test of email Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:30:03 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309191030.03103.rockcast@earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: <"4ObXW1.0.yi3.u9nQ_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51903 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: this is a test this is a test my email goes everywhere else but here and I do not know why? this is a test. yakov From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 19 07:44:33 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA24410; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:42:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:42:42 -0700 Message-ID: <410-220039519144247562@mindspring.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: JedRothwell@mindspring.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2003.3.84.0 (Windows) From: "Jed Rothwell" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: How much of this is true? Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:42:47 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191ccd680f19a3fd425fe11b474073f596a03ae9702e2e88ebc7350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: <"oin-51.0.Fz5.XNnQ_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51904 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: thomas malloy writes: > The Correa / Riech issue reminded me of the heated discussion that > Eugene and Jed got into. I thought that Eugene was going to fire Jed, > well I suppose that good help is hard to find. You mean free, volunteer help is hard to find. Gene wasn't exactly employing me and I have not exactly quit. I keep meaning to write more articles for I.E. but I have been busy full time with the secretarial duties for ICCF10 and LENR-CANR.org. By "secretarial" I mean preparing the book of abstract and maintaining the web page. That did not take much time, but I am now preparing the ICCF10 papers. I am editing and rewriting the English of some of the Japanese and Russian authors. That is time consuming! It is boring work. My daughter has been assisting, but she just got a job with the scientific publisher Wiley, and I doubt she will want any train-man's holidays doing the same kind of work on weekends. I find it easier to understand and correct the mistakes made by Japanese speakers. I guess I am used to it, and I know what they have in mind when they write literal translations. There has been some debate over whether we should edit papers in the ICCF proceedings and papers uploaded to LENR-CANR.org. I think we should, so I do it. No one else gets a vote. The way I see it, when you volunteer to do something in an informal unorganized effort like LENR-CANR, you are in charge and you get to decide how to do it. If someone else out there would like to take over the job of preparing the papers for the on-line proceedings, that person can decide whether to edit them. I see no point to uploading papers in fractured English that people will have difficulty understanding. Naturally, I return the edited version to the authors for approval. No one has complained yet, or asked me to use the original version. I have no idea which version Peter Hagelstein will use in the printed proceedings. The Microsoft Word files and PowerPoint files from Russia and Japan have many strange formatting problems, and they often fail to convert to Acrobat correctly. Microsoft Word is supposed to be international and compatible with all scripts and letter types, but it is not. We have uploaded over 40 papers and PowerPoint slide collections so far. Readers have downloaded 8,000 copies of the papers, and around 35,000 copies of the photographs of the conference. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 19 07:50:43 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA28848; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:49:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:49:07 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:40:19 -0500 Subject: Re: How much of this is true? Message-ID: <20030919.095119.-2013531.5.wardsworld@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.33 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2,7,15 From: Ward Johanson Resent-Message-ID: <"2bI4x1.0.Q27.XTnQ_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51905 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hello Thomas, Thankyou for sending me some E. I have gotten many others too since I signed up at your site. Thanks for making all that possible. My name is Ward. I live in Alabama and have done alot of landscaping. I came to your site because of my interest in Vortices. I think there is much more to them than what I have seen anyone do with them so far. Leonardo Davinci drew pictures of water swirling around an obstruction in a stream. He was up to something. In part response to your E, I heard about a man who was in Germany during WW2 and found an energy generating station. A stream was narrowed in order to force the water to a more concentrated powerful stream. In this stream was laid a vortex( a form that was tornado shaped and cylindric). The top, or fat part, was pointing upstream. This was rotated by the water. Sort of like a paddle boat whose paddle was being spun by the water in a fast current. This spun a shaft that ran electricity generating turbines. Ward From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 19 08:03:04 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA05181; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:01:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:01:40 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:03:25 -0500 Subject: Re: ORMES Message-ID: <20030919.100328.-2013531.12.wardsworld@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.33 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-9,11-21 From: Ward Johanson Resent-Message-ID: <"om7-w1.0.sG1.JfnQ_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51906 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Many times I am slow on the uptake and fast on the outgo. Gas makes a cargo, but that's not important right now. What is important Ass U me An Ass out of U and me Assume Who's got the gumption for assumption? On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 02:34:24 -0500 thomas malloy writes: > Someone asked how to convert ORMES into the metallic form. According > > to David Hudson if the ORMES are placed in an electric arc, in about > > 1.5 to 2 minutes the metal will show up on a spectrograph. I assume > > this means that they have been converted into a metallic form, of > course you know what happens when you assume. > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 19 08:07:12 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA07460; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:04:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:04:12 -0700 Message-ID: <004701c37ebe$8069a8c0$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Fw: Super abundant vacancies Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:58:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id IAA07399 Resent-Message-ID: <"RqmhH3.0.Sq1.ghnQ_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51907 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The following is a provocative slant on the mechanical situation that accompanies deuterium loading in a metal lattice, leading up to CF. Frank Grimer asked me to post it as a follow-up to Kjeld's post to Vortex a few days ago on "super abundant vacancies". A more complete version of his ideas can be found in the article "Aether Vacua and Cold Fusion" Infinite Energy Magazine, Issue 46, 2002, p28. Apparently it is a bit more difficult for overseas posters to reach vortex in recent months. I hope that the problem is not a consequence of the so-called "patriot's act." ==================================================== >From a structural engineering viewpoint loading a metal with deuterium is equivalent to prestressing. The metal is put into hydrostatic tension, the deuterium into hydrostatic compression. Now I submit that cold fusion in metals is not brought about by increasing the pressure on the deuterium, as has been frequently suggested. On the contrary, it is brought about by reducing the pressure on the deuterium. To use a concept from the discipline of soil mechanics, cold fusion is brought about by subjecting deuterium to a high pF, a high negative pressure. When a metal is stressed a range of strains takes place on the micro scale. Because of the very heterogeneous nature of the micro structure of metals the magnitude and rate of strains at the atomic level vary widely. This variation increases as the overall average stress approaches the strength of the metal. In certain metals (which may be termed "cup and cone" metals in reference to their characteristic failure patterns) a myriad of cavitation holes are formed within the crystals of the major element as overall failure stress is approached in a conventional tensile test. These minute cavitation holes (let's call them cavitrons) coalesce onto a smaller number of larger holes which in turn coalesce into a few very large holes. Eventually a single archetypal cup and cone cavity is formed immediately prior to the ultimate failure. Cup and cone failure will be very familiar to Vortex engineers. Readers from other disciplines will find plenty of relevant stuff on the web. Now there is no reason to suppose that stressing a metal with deuterium loading is any different, as far as the growth of cavitrons is concerned, from stressing a metal with a testing machine. It seems clear to me that cold fusion is mediated by the pressure drop that takes place as the deuterium migrates from the high pressure regions around a cavitron reactor into the high pF region within a cavitron reactor. If one needs a mental crutch, think of it as the deuterium condensing to helium as the pressure drops: analogous to the way drops forming in a cloud chamber. An impossible idea? Quite so. But then, so is cold fusion. The fact that cold fusion takes place at widely distributed and localized regions within a metal, and that it increases with time, fits in with the steady growth of cavitrons. The fact that the metal composition seem to be important also fits, since only metals with properties intermediate between the brittle and ductile boundaries will exhibit within-crystal cavitation. If the above view is correct then stressing a deuterium loaded metal can be expected to increase the rate of cold fusion significantly, possibly even by orders of magnitude. I look forward to the day when some intrepid engineering postgrad, who has not yet been corrupted by scientific orthodoxy, stresses a fully loaded specimen. By blowing himself up, together with his faculty building, he will be ennobled as the first martyr to the cause of cold fusion. Perhaps only then will the powers-that-be begin to take cold fusion seriously. Frank Grimer ==================================================== From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 19 08:09:55 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA11245; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:08:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:08:10 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030919105402.00bab438@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:07:08 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC crazy early aviation enthusiasts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"UFeur1.0.Vl2.QlnQ_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51908 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Here are some people who plan to fly a close reproduction of the 1903 Wright Flyer exactly 100 years after the first flight: http://www.countdowntokittyhawk.com There was a show about this on the Discovery Channel. This is a colorful and romantic project. As an early aviation enthusiast, I approve. On the other hand, the 1903 Wright Flyer was one of most dangerous and badly designed airplanes that ever actually took to the air, and anyone who would *think* of flying one now is as nutty as a fruitcake, in my opinion. It is a suicidal stunt. It will certainly be a memorable occasion this December 17 if millions of people watch a live television broadcast showing a guy bash his head in and break both legs. Kind of like "survivor," except he may not (survive). The Wrights barely survived their experiments. At least the pilot will be wearing a helmet. The Wrights never did, and they never used a seat-belt. They used to race bicycles at high speed on dirt roads in the dark, too. They were strange. Incredibly brave, but strange. I wonder if people will be trying to do commemorative reproductions of early cold fusion experiments in 2089. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 19 08:26:21 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA22489; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:23:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:23:23 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030919110859.02125508@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:22:35 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: "Train-man's holiday" definition Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"iu4Ic3.0.HV5.gznQ_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51909 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I used the wrong e-mail program for a message to Vortex, vectoring responses back to me. Ward Johanson wrote: "Hey Jed, Thanks for all the effort. What is a train-man's holiday?" I suppose this is 1930s slang, like "pushing a piano through a transom," which is how Fanny Brice supposedly described having a baby. (And if you don't know who Fanny Brice was, or what a transom is, you probably never read the Katzenjammer Kids comic strip, or Pogo.) Anyway, a train-man's holiday refers to an old joke about a trolley car driver who gets a week off every year, and takes his family on trolley rides the whole time. It means doing the same thing for recreation that you do for a living. Many researchers, writers, programmers, farmers & artists I know are like this. I cannot judge whether they are the most contented people on earth, with the most fulfilling jobs, or whether they just need to get a life. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 19 08:33:50 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA28728; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:31:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:31:45 -0700 Message-ID: <003f01c37ec3$0621d970$844eccd1@asus> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: Subject: Re: How much of this is true? Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:02:37 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"TCAP01.0.o07.X5oQ_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51910 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tomas Malloy wrote: > The Correa / Riech issue reminded me of the heated discussion that > Eugene and Jed got into. I thought that Eugene was going to fire Jed, > well I suppose that good help is hard to find. > Gene cannot 'fire' Jed because Jed never worked for Gene. Jed was an early investor in Cold Fusion Technology, the parent company of Infinite Energy magazine, and with Gene a member of the board. Jed has his own point of view, often different from Gene's, but they are allied in the promotion of new energy technology in general and LENR in particular. Gene's support of the Correas drew fire from Jed and there was a public and ascerbic quarrel which led to Gene shutting Jed out from use of the IE email account. Jed is a computer professional, quite capable of setting up his own email accounts. The circulation of CF papers achieved by lenr-canr.org far exceeds that of IE; but of course, the downloads are free to the users. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 19 08:48:15 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA04503; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:45:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:45:27 -0700 Message-ID: <005301c37ec4$f4af8820$844eccd1@asus> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030919110859.02125508@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: "Train-man's holiday" definition Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:44:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"e6p-D3.0.H61.NIoQ_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51911 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote: > > Anyway, a train-man's holiday refers to an old joke about a trolley car > driver who gets a week off every year, and takes his family on trolley > rides the whole time. It means doing the same thing for recreation that you > do for a living. Many researchers, writers, programmers, farmers & artists > I know are like this. I cannot judge whether they are the most contented > people on earth, with the most fulfilling jobs, or whether they just need > to get a life. > It's also known as a busman's holiday. My wife and I may be nerds, geeks, or whatever, but we can attest that getting paid to do what you would do for fun, and have done since elementary school, can be very much a 'life' and a fulfilling one at that. It's much better than wandering around wondering what one is doing here, purposeless, and in need of constant diversion and entertainment. That's a 'life'? My wife, at 74, is a full time professional musician who won't quit using the skills and knowledge she has acquired over a lifetime of performance and teaching. Odd that Jed can't 'judge' this, but it's like asking a fish to judge water. Jed, and Gene, have poured their soul and resources into the LENR cause for over a decade. Jed has done this at his own expense, and Gene has done so with great effort and personal sacrifice. They are to be respected for this, for their effort and sweat equity is exceeded only by the dogged efforts of a handful of investigators that have carried understanding of the phenomenon forward. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 19 10:43:03 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA09332; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:37:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:37:38 -0700 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20030919133146.01701318@pop.theworld.com> X-Sender: mica@pop.theworld.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 13:36:48 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: "Dr. Mitchell Swartz" Subject: Re: How much of this is true? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-5D9B718D; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"F21PP3.0.fH2.YxpQ_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51912 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 02:50 AM 9/19/2003 -0500, you wrote: >Then there is the cancer issue. I have a cancer remediation method, I find >that most people are unwilling to trust someone who doesn't have an MD >behind their name when it comes to treatment, regardless of how badly the >Allopaths butcher them up. 1) You don't want to "remediate" cancer, you want to KILL it, and with a high therapeutic gain factor. That is how patients are cured. 2) Because conventional treatment with radiation therapy (as sole modality, or adjuvant with preop, intraop, postop, etc) leads to long-term disease-free cure in more than 2/3rds of patients afflicted with malignant disease, the word "butcher" seems inappropriate. The success in curing patients afflicted with cancer may also explain what you are interpreting as distrust. Dr. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 19 12:58:10 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA16355; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:54:25 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:54:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F6B5EAE.4000006@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:53:18 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC crazy early aviation enthusiasts References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030919105402.00bab438@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030919105402.00bab438@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"k3dBh1.0.P_3.bxrQ_"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51913 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Here are some people who plan to fly a close reproduction of the 1903 > Wright Flyer exactly 100 years after the first flight: > > http://www.countdowntokittyhawk.com > > There was a show about this on the Discovery Channel. I saw that. Even the engine looked genuine. Is there any of Kitty Hawk left? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 19 13:55:49 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA04995; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 13:52:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 13:52:39 -0700 Message-ID: <3F6B6C6F.6000100@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 16:51:59 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: Super abundant vacancies References: <004701c37ebe$8069a8c0$8837fea9@cpq> In-Reply-To: <004701c37ebe$8069a8c0$8837fea9@cpq> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"SEZYa.0.lD1.MosQ_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51914 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >If the above view is correct then stressing a >deuterium loaded metal can be expected to >increase the rate of cold fusion significantly, >possibly even by orders of magnitude. I look >forward to the day when some intrepid engineering >postgrad, who has not yet been corrupted by >scientific orthodoxy, stresses a fully loaded >specimen. By blowing himself up, together with >his faculty building, he will be ennobled as >the first martyr to the cause of cold fusion. > >Perhaps only then will the powers-that-be begin >to take cold fusion seriously. > >Frank Grimer > >==================================================== > I think this has been postulated and tested. I seem to recall that I asked this question several years ago and was told that someone had actually whacked loaded palladium with no results. Any vorts remember? Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 19 14:20:39 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA25925; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 14:18:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 14:18:41 -0700 Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 09:18:40 +1200 From: RBR Subject: Re: How much of this is true? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <004f01c37ef3$9b2d5d20$1091a7cb@vuw.ac.nz> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4920.2300 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4920.2300 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <20030919.095119.-2013531.5.wardsworld@juno.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"u_gKu3.0.xK6.lAtQ_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51915 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: hi Ward try this site www.frank.germano.com/viktorschauberger4.htm RBR ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ward Johanson" To: Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2003 2:40 AM Subject: Re: How much of this is true? > In part response to your E, I heard about a man who was in > Germany during WW2 and found an energy generating station. A stream was > narrowed in order to force the water to a more concentrated powerful > stream. In this stream was laid a vortex( a form that was tornado shaped > and cylindric). The top, or fat part, was pointing upstream. This was > rotated by the water. Sort of like a paddle boat whose paddle was being > spun by the water in a fast current. This spun a shaft that ran > electricity generating turbines. > > Ward > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 19 14:50:22 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA14277; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 14:48:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 14:48:25 -0700 Message-ID: <3F6B6D0B.59681AE7@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 14:54:49 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: Super abundant vacancies References: <004701c37ebe$8069a8c0$8837fea9@cpq> <3F6B6C6F.6000100@rtpatlanta.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ikkpX.0.xU3.fctQ_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51916 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I pounded loaded Pd with a hammer and did nothing but split the disk in two. The problem is that the description of how deuterium reacts upon loading into palladium is flawed. I do not have time to go into details except to note that the concept of pressure does not apply unless a gas phase is present. Ions are not under pressure because loss of an electron and expansion of the Pd lattice allows them to accommodate to conditions within the solid. Ed Terry Blanton wrote: > Jones Beene wrote: > > >If the above view is correct then stressing a > >deuterium loaded metal can be expected to > >increase the rate of cold fusion significantly, > >possibly even by orders of magnitude. I look > >forward to the day when some intrepid engineering > >postgrad, who has not yet been corrupted by > >scientific orthodoxy, stresses a fully loaded > >specimen. By blowing himself up, together with > >his faculty building, he will be ennobled as > >the first martyr to the cause of cold fusion. > > > >Perhaps only then will the powers-that-be begin > >to take cold fusion seriously. > > > >Frank Grimer > > > >==================================================== > > > > I think this has been postulated and tested. I seem to recall that I > asked this question several years ago and was told that someone had > actually whacked loaded palladium with no results. Any vorts remember? > > Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 19 16:21:20 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA09107; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 16:19:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 16:19:41 -0700 X-Peer-Info: remote-ip 199.125.98.199 local-ip 199.125.85.40 local-name mercury.mv.net User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 19:12:02 -0700 Subject: Re: How much of this is true? From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "vortex l eskimo.com" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <003f01c37ec3$0621d970$844eccd1@asus> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA09034 Resent-Message-ID: <"0G2qy1.0.9E2.CyuQ_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51917 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 9/19/03 8:02 AM, "Mike Carrell" wrote: A correction/clarification to Mike's comments: > Tomas Malloy wrote: > > > >> The Correa / Riech issue reminded me of the heated discussion that >> Eugene and Jed got into. I thought that Eugene was going to fire Jed, >> well I suppose that good help is hard to find. >> > Gene cannot 'fire' Jed because Jed never worked for Gene. Jed was an early > investor in Cold Fusion Technology, the parent company of Infinite Energy > magazine, and with Gene a member of the board. Jed put up no significant money to "invest" in Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. -- it was all sweat equity. Ditto for my own sweat equity work. MOST who have worked for cold fusion/LENR have made many financial and other sacrifices far beyond the value of any investment money. There is the great loss of income that could have been flowing at much higher levels had we not gotten into this field. > Jed has his own point of > view, often different from Gene's, Indeed, very different. > but they are allied in the promotion of > new energy technology in general and LENR in particular. I have seen little evidence that Jed is particularly interested in new energy generally -- in anything beyond the mainstream cold fusion/LENR field proper -- perhaps with the exception of the Hydrosonic Pump and Perkins-Pope Kinetic furnace cavitation technologies. >Gene's support of > the Correas drew fire from Jed and there was a public and ascerbic quarrel > which led to Gene shutting Jed out from use of the IE email account. No, Jed's attack on the Correas drew fire from ME. This was a simple matter of not having the Infinite Energy name being attached to poorly-informed, often venom-filled tirades against the Correas -- and on occasion assaults against Randell Mills, Mitch Swartz, Tom Bearden, Ken Shoulders, and other scientists and technologists within new energy. This was a wise move for both of us. Now Jed can concentrate all his energies into "pure" CF/LENR pursuits. >Jed is > a computer professional, quite capable of setting up his own email accounts. Infinite Energy magazine is now legally under the non-profit New Energy Foundation, Inc., (NEF) which has five distinguished board members, all of whom happen to live in New Hampshire. Jed and the other primary stock holders of Cold Fusion technology, Inc. -- including the estate of Chris Tinsley‹ formally transferred the publishing assets to New Energy Foundation, Inc. On July 3, 2003, NEF was been granted 501c3 status from the IRS, which means that contributions to New Energy Foundation, Inc. are tax deductible. We have a significant grant function as well as publishing. Quite interesting technical proposals have already come in. We will be helping to fund ICCF11 too -- and possibly other conferences. > > The circulation of CF papers achieved by lenr-canr.org far exceeds that of > IE; but of course, the downloads are free to the users. The downloads of free material from Infinite Energy is substantial too, and of course it has a wider physics perspective on new energy and on CF/LENR in particular -- see the perspective in my pre-ICCF10 paper on our site, and linked from ICCF10.org. The conference only strengthened that perspective. Also, we catch many, many new people via newsstand displays in hundreds of outlets across North America -- both those who just browse Infinite Energy -- and those who actually purchase it. I am also happy that whenever I appear on national and local radio programs, that the lenr-canr.org site seems to receive significant hits. > > Mike Carrell Dr. Eugene F. Mallove New Energy Foundation, Inc. Infinite Energy Magazine P.O. Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 Ph: 603-485-4700 Fx: 603-485-4710 www.infinite-energy.com > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 19 16:33:52 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA18608; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 16:32:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 16:32:20 -0700 Message-ID: <002401c37f06$2aed9350$a345ccd1@asus> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: Subject: Re: How much of this is true? Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 19:31:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"i5lnQ2.0.JY4.28vQ_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51918 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks to Gene for refining my comments about the exact sequence of events. As in a later post, I cite both Gene and Jed for their sweat equities in pursuit of their individual goals, consonant with the discovery and propagation of new energy sources. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 22 00:34:51 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA08973; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 00:27:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 00:27:46 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030919133146.01701318@pop.theworld.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030919133146.01701318@pop.theworld.com> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 02:26:29 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: How much of this is true? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <"l0Whq1.0.7C2.oHgR_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51919 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I posted; and Mitchell Schwartz responded; >At 02:50 AM 9/19/2003 -0500, you wrote: > >>Then there is the cancer issue. I have a cancer remediation method, >>I find that most people are unwilling to trust someone who doesn't >>have an MD behind their name when it comes to treatment, regardless >>of how badly the Allopaths butcher them up. > > > 1) You don't want to "remediate" cancer, you want to KILL it, and >with a high therapeutic gain factor. You might want to kill it, but if you want to restore good health, not to be confused with "cure" a word with the allopathic establishment has usurped and bastardized, you want to cause the cancer to go away. > That is how patients are cured. > > 2) Because conventional treatment with radiation therapy (as sole >modality, or adjuvant with preop, intraop, postop, etc) >leads to long-term disease-free cure in more than 2/3rds of patients >afflicted with malignant disease, The victim is termed cured if them survive 60 months, as I understand it, most of them die in 72 to 84 months. Correct me if I wrong. Lorain Day, who used to teach surgery an a university, was diagnosed with a malignant condition. Having witnessed first hand the effects of Allopathic cancer treatments, she refused it. Her recommendations can be seen on http://drday.com >the word "butcher" seems inappropriate. The success in curing >patients afflicted with >cancer may also explain what you are interpreting as distrust. The doctor stripped all the lymph vains out of my neighbor's legs causing them to swell up. This prompted the butcher remark. Please don't argue with me about this until you have read Loraine's website, Mitchell, > > Dr. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 22 07:34:36 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA03043; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 07:30:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 07:30:28 -0700 Message-ID: <3F6F0742.20902@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 10:29:22 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [OT]Re: How much of this is true? References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030919133146.01701318@pop.theworld.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"8qHcY1.0.Ll.3UmR_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51920 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > The victim is termed cured if them survive 60 months, as I understand > it, most of them die in 72 to 84 months. 60 months after the cancer is destroyed with no recurrence. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 22 09:47:33 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA17671; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 09:40:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 09:40:45 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030922112300.01bb7788@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 12:40:32 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Gene's comments and the paradox of web space Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Ax52h.0.rJ4.COoR_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51921 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Eugene F. Mallove wrote: > Jed put up no significant money to "invest" in Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. > -- it was all sweat equity. Well, it was $15,000 or so as I recall. Pretty significant. > I have seen little evidence that Jed is particularly interested in new > energy generally -- in anything beyond the mainstream cold fusion/LENR field > proper -- perhaps with the exception of the Hydrosonic Pump and > Perkins-Pope Kinetic furnace cavitation technologies. That's nonsense, and totally unfair. I have invested substantial amounts of time and money investigating some of these other claims. Furthermore, I have said hundreds of times -- here and in the pages of I.E. -- that I make no distinctions between anomalous energy sources. I would be just as happy with zero point energy, a Griggs pump or a magic magnetic motor as with cold fusion. I simply could not care less about the details or the origin of the energy. All I want is a gadget that works. As far as I know, only two anomalous energy devices has ever been replicated or independently confirmed: cold fusion and the Griggs pump, so those are the only two I am interested in. Some aspects of the Mills claims relating to spectroscopy have been independently replicated, but I do not understand these results or theories, I cannot evaluate them, and they appear to have no direct relationship to energy production, so they are not in my bailiwick. > No, Jed's attack on the Correas drew fire from ME. This was a simple matter > of not having the Infinite Energy name being attached to poorly-informed, > often venom-filled tirades against the Correas I listed a number of technical errors in the Correa's experiments in this forum, such as the fact that they never ran a blank in their "Orgone energy" experiment, and they exposed the other experiment to direct sunlight without measuring the sunlight. As far as I know, neither the Correa's nor Gene ever addressed these issues. No one else here addressed my points. Unless these technical deficiencies have been remedied, the experiments are worthless and prove nothing. > -- and on occasion assaults > against Randell Mills, Mitch Swartz, Tom Bearden, Ken Shoulders, and other > scientists and technologists within new energy. All those attacks were made on political grounds having nothing to do with technical issues. I stand by all of those attacks. Mizuno and many other mainstream cold fusion researchers have told me they agree completely, and they were as incensed as I was by the high-handed, unreasonable, uncooperative and unscientific attitudes of these people, and by their inept business schemes. People like Swartz and Shoulders want to be accepted as scientists but they withhold their results and keep their research secret, so they are not practicing science, and they cannot complain when researchers ignore them. You cannot have it both ways. A scientist by definition is one who freely shares his results on a timely basis. If you do not share your results you may be an engineer or a corporate researcher but you are not a scientist. This is the essential difference between medieval scholars like da Vinci and modern scientists such as Newton. > This was a wise move for both of us. Now Jed can concentrate all his > energies into "pure" CF/LENR pursuits. Since these are the only results I am aware of, and I am capable of understanding, it would make no sense for me to concentrate on any other results. The larger social and business issues I have dealt with in the past would apply to any form of anomalous energy equally well. Furthermore, there is an interesting paradox here regarding web space and what Gene called, "boundary conditions" during the closing session of ICCF-10. Peter Hagelstein was discussing the new electronic journal he wants to start which will be devoted to cold fusion. Gene raised the valid point that cold fusion segues into several other fields such as zero point energy. (At least, some people think it may on a theoretical level -- I wouldn't know.) So the question arises, why devote a journal to LENR (CF) only when these other interesting and possibly related claims are available. For that matter, why should we devote LENR-CANR.org to the metal hydride claims only, ignoring all other anomalous energy claims? This is a legitimate question. I have three equally legitimate answers, I think: 1. As far as I know, none of these other claims have ever been experimentally verified. They have not been replicated or independently verified. That puts them in another class. They are speculative, like string theory or multi-universe hypotheses, whereas CF is confirmed fact. I am only interested in experimentally proven phenomena. Other people are interested in speculative phenomena. There is plenty of work for both of us. 2. As noted above, I know practically nothing about these other claims, and because they have not been replicated I have no interest in studying them. Therefore I am not competent to edit or prepare papers in them. I make no changes to the content of papers submitted to LENR-CANR.org, but I do a good deal of editing for grammar and spelling, and I make hundreds of OCR output corrections. I could not do that for a subject I know nothing about. (This is why I have not OCR'ed any CF theory papers. I would not recognize a mistake. The whole paper might as well be written in Greek.) 3. Web space is unlimited for all practical purposes. Any number of web sites can be founded. All are equally accessible to all readers. This gives rise to an interesting paradox: it makes sense to carefully limit the content of a web site. This is more the case with web sites than any previous medium such as printed papers, CD-ROM, or discussion groups such as this one. There is no harm to limiting the content on a web page, or even arbitrarily excluding material. For example, suppose at LENR-CANR.org we arbitrarily excluded all papers about light water results. This would cause no harm because there are any number of other web sites available to publish the same papers, and readers would access them as easily and other sites as at LENR-CANR.org. Nearly all readers access the papers directly without going through the introductory screens or using our index. They ignore the periodic announcements I make, and I recently determined that they will download a paper nearly as often when I leave it out of the index and make no mention of it as when I play it up. Therefore, LENR-CANR.org is a passive repository from the readers' point of view and if there were five other similar repositories for papers about light water CF and other subjects, traffic would be divided between them to suit the readers needs. And why limit material? Why not include papers about zero point energy or Mills at LENR-CANR.org? Because that disrupts organization. You can find papers about the subjects elsewhere, at places like Mills' own site. If we were to start copying these papers, people looking for information about CF would keep running into other subjects and they would be annoyed. Imagine you read a particularly compelling and interesting history book, and you feel strongly that other people should also read it. You would not go around surreptitiously filing copies of the history book in the library cookbook section in order to draw people's attention to this fascinating book. That would only annoy people and confuse them. You may think that I have contradicted myself somewhat, because we have some CF papers that are also available at other sites. That is to sat, in some cases we have copied papers, duplicating them. However, there are valid technical reasons for doing this. Boring, but valid. Let me enumerate them, for the benefit of authors and webmasters: * The papers at the Italian laboratory sites are often unavailable. The Italian ISPs seem to be unreliable. * Papers at Japanese and Chinese sites often use non-European character sets (ASCII subsets) that do not display correctly with the US version of Acrobat. They often have disruptive errors in grammar and spelling. * The U.S. Navy papers are uploaded in a peculiar format that takes up 50 megabytes for papers that we reduce to less than one megabyte. * Papers at many other web sites are unstable. They have often become unavailable after some period of time, or they have been assigned new URLs. * At many sites, papers crammed together under the same URL. Users have to remember a series of obscure commands to reach the paper they want, or they have to download many megabytes of other papers in one file, or they have to perform a search and type in the author's name every time. This particularly annoying because it is totally unnecessary, and it serves no purpose. Why not simply assign every paper a unique URL? This problem occurs at many web sites, including I.E. I have complained about this to Gene and others many times, but they do nothing to correct it. It annoys their readers and reduces their traffic. (I know because their readers have told me so.) This is an amateur programming error. All these deficiencies make it inconvenient to look up papers, and impossible for authors to include a URL in a footnote for the paper, or people making other web sites who want to make hyperlinks to specific papers. So, in these cases, we copy papers rather than pointing to them with a hyperlink. Also, I must admit, the program I wrote to generate the indexes cannot automatically create & maintain hyperlinks to external sites. I could modify it, but I have not yet found enough externally available papers to make it worth my time to do that. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 22 09:55:45 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA24132; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 09:51:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 09:51:01 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030922124934.01bc2ff0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 12:50:38 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: [OT]Re: How much of this is true? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"CKzgu2.0.su5.qXoR_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51922 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton writes: > > The victim is termed cured if them survive 60 months, as I understand > > it, most of them die in 72 to 84 months. > > > 60 months after the cancer is destroyed with no recurrence. I presume you mean no detectable cancer in blood tests and whatnot. Right? I believe that is the criterion. With most forms of cancer, a person who will die at 72 months will have clearly detectable signs at 60 months. Articles in Sci. Am. and elsewhere have pointed out that some of the improvement in the statistics, for some types of cancer, can be explained entirely by earlier detection. However, other types such as childhood leukemia have been decisively cured. Unfortunately many surviving patients suffer from side effects of the therapy even after they reach adulthood. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 22 10:12:05 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA03524; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 10:05:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 10:05:57 -0700 Message-ID: <3F6F2BC6.7050700@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:05:10 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OT]Re: How much of this is true? References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030922124934.01bc2ff0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030922124934.01bc2ff0@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"mDXzG.0.ss.oloR_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51923 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Terry Blanton writes: > > 60 months after the cancer is destroyed with no recurrence. > > I presume you mean no detectable cancer in blood tests and whatnot. > Right? I believe that is the criterion. Usually the same criterion by which the cancer was originally detected, eg my wife's pap smear has been clear for 21 years after her cancer was cured. > With most forms of cancer, a person who will die at 72 months will > have clearly detectable signs at 60 months. This might not be true of pancreatic and kidney cancers. Speaking of cures, a significant announcement was made today at http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/articles/6819202?version=1 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 22 11:22:11 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA31056; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 11:16:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 11:16:25 -0700 Message-ID: <20030922181603.9801.qmail@web11701.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 11:16:03 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: Charge: Attempted-humor, or Back-door to CF To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <3F6504C7.2070407@rtpatlanta.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"PkM6-3.0.0b7.tnpR_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51924 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- Jones Beene wrote: > Terry Blanton writes, > > > CF POPCORN! You just whack the package on the > counter like a chocolate > > orange, lay it on the grill, and voilà, pops in > the bag! > > Be sure to patent that one before Ron Popeil gets > wind of it... or tv dinners. pull a tab, it heats itself. but DONT PUT IN THE MICROWAVE!!!! > > And speaking of the goose that laid the golden egg, > Louis Kervran of France has studied and concluded > that the calcium in poultry eggshells can be created > by a process not dissimilar from cold fusion...and > all us alchemists (past life, of course) know that > calcination was the first step towards getting the > philosopher stoned... or did I get that wrong? > > Anyway, maybe if Kervan and Ron Popeil can get > together with Mizuno, who has found transmuted gold, > then that goose will be closer than Thanksgiving > dinner... i thought it was putrefacation? hmm. found transmuted gold? how does he know? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 22 13:12:11 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA17498; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:03:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:03:57 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:02:57 EDT Subject: Re: Gene's comments and the paradox of web space To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_ca.221ec6eb.2ca0af71_boundary" X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10690 Resent-Message-ID: <"k3ppJ1.0.rG4.fMrR_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51925 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_ca.221ec6eb.2ca0af71_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/22/2003 12:47:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, JedRothwell@mindspring.com writes: > No, Jed's attack on the Correas drew fire from ME. This was a simple > matter > > of not having the Infinite Energy name being attached to poorly-informed, > > often venom-filled tirades against the Correas > I agree with Jed. As for the Correas, I never hard such double talk in my life. Jed knows where to find a diamond and he can smell a bad fish. Go Jed. Frank Znidarsic --part1_ca.221ec6eb.2ca0af71_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 9/22/2003 12:47:45 PM Eastern Stand= ard Time, JedRothwell@mindspring.com writes:


No, Jed's attack on the Correas= drew fire from ME. This  was a simple matter
> of not having the Infinite Energy name being attached to poorly-informe= d,
> often venom-filled tirades against the Correas


I agree with Jed.  As for the Correas, I never hard such double talk in= my life.  Jed knows where to find a diamond and he can smell a bad fis= h. 

Go Jed.

Frank Znidarsic --part1_ca.221ec6eb.2ca0af71_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 22 16:17:06 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA23031; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:11:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:11:06 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030922190420.01bb7848@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:04:44 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Papp machine a perfect example Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"DILBU1.0.md5.A6uR_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51926 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I just received the latest copy of I.E., which has many fascinating articles about the machine produced by Joseph Papp. This is a perfect example of what I was talking about this morning. The machine is speculative. It has not been replicated (I think -- as far as I have read today, anyway). It is interesting and worthy of investigating, but it out of my bailiwick. This is not what I do. I have not read all of these I.E. reports yet, but I gather the Papp machine has not yet been replicated, although several people are making serious efforts to replicate it. If and when they succeed, then it will be time for me to take note, and take the thing seriously. A few machines, such as Roger Stringham's sonic cold fusion device exist in a kind of netherworld, suspended somewhere between belief in disbelief. His gadget has not been reproduced as far as I know, but it is similar in many ways to cold fusion devices. That gives us reason to think it might work, but of course we must wait for replications. Many claims such as Case's work sometimes, even though Case himself is not longer able replicate his own original results. Please note there is a gigantic difference between my attitude and the attitude of a so-called skeptic. The skeptic would deny the Papp machine works, or that it can exist. He would deny it sight unseen, a priori. I cannot judge whether the Papp gadget works or not. I honestly don't care whether it works or not. Until it is replicated, for all intents and purposes it does not exist. Of course I know that according to conventional physics theory it cannot work. That goes without saying. But theory is not an absolute guide to reality. There is always a slight chance it is wrong, or incomplete. What is real can only be established with certainty by replicated experiments. I will grant there are remarkable eyewitness reports about the Papp machine, whereas most perpetual motion machine claims I have investigated have no basis what ever. They are rumors of rumors, and illusions fed by delusions, like the phantom Iraqi weapons of mass destruction. A reliable sounding eyewitness report is impressive, but as a touchstone of truth, it is no better than a physics theory or an expert opinion. It is something you take seriously, and you respect, but it cannot be the basis for determining whether a phenomenon exists or not. Of course in one sense all papers about experiments are nothing more than eyewitness reports. You have to take Mizuno's word that he did thus and such and observed this or that result. Taken to extremes, my method would demand that I personally observe all experiments before I believe anything. This is impractical. One must believe the preponderance of formal published scientific evidence. It is safe to do so because a scientific paper is qualitatively different from an eyewitness report. The difference is sometimes difficult to define. Some scientific papers are so badly written, and so inadequate, they are no better than a muddled eyewitness report. However, the good ones written by professional scientists are convincing once you learn how to read them, if you know enough about the subject matter yourself. Over the years, "skeptics" often said to me that cold fusion has no more proof than the Papp machine. "It is all hearsay and eyewitness reports," they asserted. Since we began uploading papers I have not heard that as often. The discussion group at sci.physics.fusion seems to have dried up. Perhaps they have lost interest. My point is that although eyewitness reports are interesting, they are nowhere near as compelling as a bibliography of 3000 formal papers and a collection of 200 plus full text scientific papers. That is incomparably more convincing. Actually, one carefully reported positive replication of Papp in a properly written scientific paper would be more compelling than all the eyewitness reports one could compile. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 22 20:53:45 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA10348; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:48:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:48:37 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 22:50:31 -0500 Subject: Re:Whirling energy Message-ID: <20030922.225032.-2009033.2.wardsworld@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.33 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-4,13-16,18-19 From: Ward Johanson Resent-Message-ID: <"haA0L1.0.cX2.LAyR_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51927 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hello Jed, Thankyou for the wonderful writing. You are earnest and thoughtful. I am glad to see you have interest in energy. I share that interest albeit with a different set of DNA. I was referred to http://home5.swipnet.se/~w-58759/Starteng.html . I have pulled up some plants recently and noticed the ratio 1, 1.618 in root systems. I have long wondered how a tree remains upright throuh win, rain, and nut-bearing with such a limited root system for the mass and torque above ground. It does so because of the vortex principle. Some older trees even show in their bark that they are growing in a twist. Does anyone care about this amazing power? Also, did Newton and Davinci share information. Thankyou as well for the concise explanation of a train man's holiday. Ward From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 22 21:04:54 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA19084; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:00:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:00:47 -0700 From: Yakov Reply-To: rockcast@earthlink.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: lets all get along Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 00:02:39 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309230002.39173.rockcast@earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: <"t3dVg3.0.rf4.kLyR_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51928 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Lets all get along. There is plenty of attitude in the world. Need we carry it into our dealings with each other? Yakov From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 22 21:09:42 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA22569; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:04:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:04:47 -0700 X-Peer-Info: remote-ip 199.125.98.234 local-ip 199.125.85.40 local-name mercury.mv.net User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 00:03:31 -0700 Subject: Re: Gene's comments and the paradox of web space From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "vortex l eskimo.com" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030922112300.01bb7788@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id VAA22514 Resent-Message-ID: <"w-RHG2.0.WW5.UPyR_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51929 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 9/22/03 9:40 AM, "Jed Rothwell" wrote: > Eugene F. Mallove wrote: > >> Jed put up no significant money to "invest" in Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. >> -- it was all sweat equity. > > Well, it was $15,000 or so as I recall. Pretty significant. As far as I can recall, when CFTI was incorporated in 1997 you put up no investment money. When the previous magazine at WGI was formed, it was Mr. C.B. (also of ENECO at the time) who put up all the money for "Cold Fusion" magazine. Check your records. You may be referring to totaling up some living expenses that you provided to Chris Tinsley -- and on one occasion I recall a nice $2k check my way when times were tough. This was before Sir Arthur and others stepped in. Show me the copy of the $15,000 check and I will admit being in error -- if you have such a check. > > >> I have seen little evidence that Jed is particularly interested in new >> energy generally -- in anything beyond the mainstream cold fusion/LENR field >> proper -- perhaps with the exception of the Hydrosonic Pump and >> Perkins-Pope Kinetic furnace cavitation technologies. > > That's nonsense, and totally unfair. I have invested substantial amounts of > time and money investigating some of these other claims. It is totally fair. You shoot from the hip on just about all "outside claims." BlackLight and the Correas are your favorite targets in this era. Formerly, it was Mitch Swartz within CF -- who now has exemplary results, some of the best in the CFC/LENR field. >Furthermore, I > have said hundreds of times -- here and in the pages of I.E. -- that I make > no distinctions between anomalous energy sources. I am well aware of that. You have no interest in the physics and science behind it and what it does or does not connect with. "Its over my head." Everyone has heard that over and over. But somehow you have come to the false conclusion that CF/LENR is the one and only verified new energy source. >I would be just as happy > with zero point energy, a Griggs pump or a magic magnetic motor as with > cold fusion. I simply could not care less about the details or the origin > of the energy. All I want is a gadget that works. As far as I know, only > two anomalous energy devices has ever been replicated or independently > confirmed: cold fusion and the Griggs pump, so those are the only two I am > interested in. What a small-minded view...just waiting for "a gadget that works" and there are no other independently replicated new energy devices/experiments. First of all, that claim of yours is 100% falsified by the simplest and most dramatic experiments of all that HAVE been replicated by others now for years -- the work of the Graneaus -- conducted in MA, at Oxford University, and, in Canada, by George Hathaway. I cite the recent replication by Vigier et al in my ICCF10 paper. Those are very, very serious excess heats and excess ELECTRICTY from air arcs and water arcs. It's not so strange that you did not recall those -- given your prejudices, which you claim not to have. > > Some aspects of the Mills claims relating to spectroscopy have been > independently replicated, but I do not understand these results or > theories, I cannot evaluate them, and they appear to have no direct > relationship to energy production, so they are not in my bailiwick. No direct relationship to energy production! What an astonishing statement. I am sure Mike Carrel would readily challenge you on that, as he has in the past. BlackLight and its several replicators -- increasing now -- are seeing the spectral and other anomalies in the very same systems in which they see significant calorimetric proof of excess power. > > >> No, Jed's attack on the Correas drew fire from ME. This was a simple matter >> of not having the Infinite Energy name being attached to poorly-informed, >> often venom-filled tirades against the Correas > > I listed a number of technical errors in the Correa's experiments in this > forum, such as the fact that they never ran a blank in their "Orgone > energy" experiment, There is no such thing as "their Orgone energy" experiment. There are numerous experiments by the Correas in the field of measurement of aether energy, and discussions of its relation to what Reich called Orgone energy. You have read nothing and understood nothing -- like Mr. Kooistra, who was badly slapped down as his ignorance about "RF" effects on the Faraday cage showed. This was the subject of published letters by me and the Correas in Analog, to deal with that particular slander. Patrick Dowland called Kooistra's bluff on Vortex quite well. These letters and more extended versions of the atrocious episode are on www.aetherometry.com -- for those who are curious about the record. Correction: You have tried to read the Correa work (in IE), gave up, and then decided that you could be an adequate commentator about their work. That is your supposed forte. Then, knowing or not knowing what you don't know about their work, you had no trouble slandering them and those who take the time to read their work -- many more people than yours truly, I might add. You further convey this slander to others -- whenever you have the chance and think no one is listening. This is becoming quite common and offensive. Just this week some new furtive remarks of yours came to light. > and they exposed the other experiment to direct > sunlight without measuring the sunlight. This is such hollow posturing it hardly merits comment. The "sunlight" that you speak of is the subject of elaborate series of control experiments discussed in the Correa monographs and referenced in some of the papers published by Infinite Energy. In any event, the Correas now have a Stirling/Hyborac configuration that has run round-the-clock for over two days continuously -- i.e. through two nights and two daylight periods. It could have continued indefinitely ‹ local aether conditions permitting. The earlier one only went some 7-hours after sun-down. The new experiments will be the subject of a new DVD that is in preparation by them. I have also worked in parallel with them to measure the mechanical power output by several different methods, as they had already done. The experiment confirms the general claims of the Correas that the Sun (and, by inference, all stars) is a source of mass-free ambipolar radiation (Tesla radiation). Faraday cages have a "draw" for this energy -- that is quite evident from the corpus of their work. Of course the Reich-Einstein experiment shows the beginning of understanding that, quite clearly, for those who take the time to perform it in a closed, darkened room with precision calibrated mercury thermometers -- rather than pontificating about RF and multi-degree variations of cheap alcohol thermometers in a drafty garage. You made utterly absurd comparisons about thermometers in drafty rooms and the like, which have no relevance to that experiment. And your cheer-leading section in this forum nodded in approval -- or worse, knew its over-the-line nature and were silent. This reminds me of the early days of cold fusion when Nate Lewis of Caltech pontificated about the supposedly thermally non-stratified cells he said he was using and compared them to what P&F were using. It's the same brand of reckless, venom-inspired ignorance. >As far as I know, neither the > Correa's nor Gene ever addressed these issues. No one else here addressed > my points. Unless these technical deficiencies have been remedied, the > experiments are worthless and prove nothing. All your blathering and continued attacking is just that -- ignorant blathering, vacuous in the extreme and deliberately meant to be harmful. It is based on nearly complete ignorance of the Correa work. You can no more be a judge of the Correa aetherometric experimentation that you can be about Dr. Correa's frontier molecular biology and biochemistry work, which is published in many peer-reviewed journals, and which is the subject of at least one US patent. > > >> -- and on occasion assaults >> against Randell Mills, Mitch Swartz, Tom Bearden, Ken Shoulders, and other >> scientists and technologists within new energy. > > All those attacks were made on political grounds having nothing to do with > technical issues. On "political grounds"? Are we talking about politics or science here? >I stand by all of those attacks. Really? You stand by your attack on the Correas and all these others? I can't tell this audience how many times --dozens of times, it seems -- that I had to try to "explain you" to Mitch Swartz and to try calm him down. He had every reason to be horrified. I no longer feel, Jed, that you need to be explained. It is quite evident who and what you are -- that you think you have a right to attack scientists who have different approaches than you to life, to commerce, to everything, and you think you have the right to do it without even the most basic attempt to understand the issues. Fortunately, I do not have to explain you any more. You are your own man and will sink or swim with your own views and continued attacks. > Mizuno and many other > mainstream cold fusion researchers have told me they agree completely, and > they were as incensed as I was by the high-handed, unreasonable, > uncooperative and unscientific attitudes of these people, and by their > inept business schemes. Ah, references to "authority" -- that doesn't fly. Are "mainstream cold fusion researchers" the arbiters of truth? Are you saying that Mills is unscientific, that Correas are unscientific, that Mitch Swartz (of the past) was unscientific? Who are "these people"? I think I know now: Collectively they are the objects of your irrational frustration and therefore hatred. They are not helping YOU get where YOU want to be -- and that's why you attack them. Surely not because you understand much about their work. You cannot judge whether they are scientific or not. > People like Swartz and Shoulders want to be > accepted as scientists but they withhold their results and keep their > research secret, so they are not practicing science, and they cannot > complain when researchers ignore them. Ah, back to attacking Mitch Swartz again! He is most certainly NOT keeping his research secret, so what do you attack him for now? And you attack Shoulders too -- who came to ICCF10 at his own expense to show others -- numerous people -- his ideas about dhow to make demonstration transmutation devices with a clever design for a mass-spectrometer. This attack mode you're in is really over the top... Ed should try to calm you down. > > You cannot have it both ways. A scientist by definition is one who freely > shares his results on a timely basis. Who are you to judge what is timely and what is not? Furthermore, all the good scientists in new energy have to do is to look at what happens to people on this forum who become the object of your wrath. There are certainly many, many examples of scientists who did some of the most pioneering work in history, and did not have a particular urgency about publishing on the Rothwell "gadget that works" time-table. Isaac Newton comes to mind. > If you do not share your results you > may be an engineer or a corporate researcher but you are not a scientist. > This is the essential difference between medieval scholars like da Vinci > and modern scientists such as Newton. I believe the record shows that Newton kept much of his work well-hidden for years, until he felt the hot breath of a competitor, Leibnitz. And, Newton's alchemy work has been buried not only by HIM ( he was most secretive about it), but by the present scientific establishment. I have much expectation that it will be found that some of his alchemy experiments will come alive again now that CF/LENR is showing that such experiments must be re-examined. > > >> This was a wise move for both of us. Now Jed can concentrate all his >> energies into "pure" CF/LENR pursuits. > > Since these are the only results I am aware of, and I am capable of > understanding, it would make no sense for me to concentrate on any other > results. The larger social and business issues I have dealt with in the > past would apply to any form of anomalous energy equally well. Well, then, why don't you join up with the Graneaus - who are proceeding to try to develop their work technologically? Their work is 100% repeatable and I think you could understand it if your tried. It is much more repeatable than many CF/LENR experiments. Why don't you try to give them a taste of your gentle-touch business advice. Gee, I wonder where that repeatable air-arc or water-arc excess energy comes from? Must be a fleck of palladium floating in the air or water :) > > Furthermore, there is an interesting paradox here regarding web space and > what Gene called, "boundary conditions" during the closing session of > ICCF-10. Peter Hagelstein was discussing the new electronic journal he > wants to start which will be devoted to cold fusion. Gene raised the valid > point that cold fusion segues into several other fields such as zero point > energy. (At least, some people think it may on a theoretical level -- I > wouldn't know.) So the question arises, why devote a journal to LENR (CF) > only when these other interesting and possibly related claims are > available. For that matter, why should we devote LENR-CANR.org to the metal > hydride claims only, ignoring all other anomalous energy claims? This is a > legitimate question. Indeed it is a legitimate question, since all physics -- by common understanding of scientists -- must be unified by underlying principles. Even Robert Park or Steven Weinberg can agree with Gene Mallove about that. It's just that people like Park and Weinberg draw the line at cold fusion experiments and hydrino physics experiments -- that's their boundary. Everything outside their little world is confined to what they deem to have been proved -- they don't need to look over the fence. > I have three equally legitimate answers, I think: > > 1. As far as I know, none of these other claims have ever been > experimentally verified. Wrong, wrong, wrong -- see above. >They have not been replicated or independently > verified. That puts them in another class. Wrong, wrong, wrong -- see above. > They are speculative, like > string theory or multi-universe hypotheses, whereas CF is confirmed fact. Are you equating Mills and Graneaus' experiments with String theory and multi-universes? Their experiments are not speculative -- they have been confirmed by outside parties and this is public record. >I > am only interested in experimentally proven phenomena. Other people are > interested in speculative phenomena. There is plenty of work for both of us. I am interested first and foremost with what I and others consider to be confirmed phenomena. My definition of "confirmed," by the way is not with Jed Rothwell considers to be confirmed. It is easily seen that your definition of confirmed evidently does not extend to a multi-person research group in Belgrade at a prestigious physics institute, publishing in a peer-reviewed journal -- wrt. the Graneau work. Second, I am very, very interested in the scientific foundations on the theoretical front that will help explain anomalous energy -- especially those that have significant plausibility. Several theories today attract my attention -- not exclusively the theoretical frame the Correas have laid down. But all theories are not equal in value, that is for sure. The elements of each must be compared. This is important in guiding future experiments, which could lead to more robust technologies. The Correas have published in their PAGD patents, copiously referencing anomalies in the scientific literature on arc discharge, quite transparent methodologies for getting excess electricity. This is quite obviously not "cold fusion" -- first, it is primarily excess electricity. And, at the same time -- anomalous cathode reaction forces. If you don't think that this physics might have applicability to plasmas in water or in air arcs, think again. > > 2. As noted above, I know practically nothing about these other claims, and > because they have not been replicated I have no interest in studying them. You're definition of "replicated" is wanting, I am quite sure of that. But you are free to have whatever definition you wish --just don't imagine or flatter yourself that YOU are the sole judge of that. You are the attack dog gate keeper against other technologies, I'll grant you that. > Therefore I am not competent to edit or prepare papers in them. There are few "peers" on the frontier. But no, you feel you are justified to attack these people, and their papers, if they dare bring something new into the public arena. >I make no > changes to the content of papers submitted to LENR-CANR.org, but I do a > good deal of editing for grammar and spelling, and I make hundreds of OCR > output corrections. That is a worthy task. Don¹t confuse it with the ability to have an adequate scientific judgment. > I could not do that for a subject I know nothing about. > (This is why I have not OCR'ed any CF theory papers. I would not recognize > a mistake. The whole paper might as well be written in Greek.) OK, fair enough. Some -- but not all -- of those CF/LENR theory papers may as well be written in Greek. > > 3. Web space is unlimited for all practical purposes. Any number of web > sites can be founded. All are equally accessible to all readers. This gives > rise to an interesting paradox: it makes sense to carefully limit the > content of a web site. This is more the case with web sites than any > previous medium such as printed papers, CD-ROM, or discussion groups such > as this one. > > There is no harm to limiting the content on a web page, or even arbitrarily > excluding material. For example, suppose at LENR-CANR.org we arbitrarily > excluded all papers about light water results. This would cause no harm That would cause astonishing harm! The experimentalists as well as the theorists need to know what the boundaries are. > because there are any number of other web sites available to publish the > same papers, and readers would access them as easily and other sites as at > LENR-CANR.org. Nearly all readers access the papers directly without going > through the introductory screens or using our index. They ignore the > periodic announcements I make, and I recently determined that they will > download a paper nearly as often when I leave it out of the index and make > no mention of it as when I play it up. Therefore, LENR-CANR.org is a > passive repository from the readers' point of view and if there were five > other similar repositories for papers about light water CF and other > subjects, traffic would be divided between them to suit the readers needs. If you excluded light water excess heat experiments, this would be a distortion within the primary area of CF as it has been accepted since 1991. > > And why limit material? Why not include papers about zero point energy or > Mills at LENR-CANR.org? Because that disrupts organization. You can find > papers about the subjects elsewhere, at places like Mills' own site. I find that both Mills and the CF/LENR community would be better served if they communicated more with one another. But I have to admit, with you barking at them, the Millsians won't want to come near. As far as they are concerned, their work is more solidly replicable than CF/LENR -- and I think it is. Mills theory could be 90% wrong -- it may well be that wrong, but he has predictive rules to suggest what plasma mix will give excess heat and what one won't. CF/LENR is improving in this direction. Some of its experiments -- e.g. Iwamura at Mitsubishi, may become exemplars of this new replicability. I think Ed Storms reversing the cathode and anode in Pd/Pt- heavy water experiments -- has a wonderful new direction there too. > If we > were to start copying these papers, people looking for information about CF > would keep running into other subjects and they would be annoyed. Imagine > you read a particularly compelling and interesting history book, and you > feel strongly that other people should also read it. You would not go > around surreptitiously filing copies of the history book in the library > cookbook section in order to draw people's attention to this fascinating > book. That would only annoy people and confuse them. I think this is an absurd comparison. In the early days of a physics revolution, which we are most certainly in, it is not possible to know what is or is not relevant. So, I would say that ALL excess heat, excess energy experiments that are done with care should be of great interest to those in CF/LENR. Also, ALL anomalies associated with hydrogen MUST be the subject of interest -- whether spectral anomalies or nuclear anomalies. > > You may think that I have contradicted myself somewhat, because we have > some CF papers that are also available at other sites. That is to sat, in > some cases we have copied papers, duplicating them. However, there are > valid technical reasons for doing this. Boring, but valid. Let me enumerate > them, for the benefit of authors and webmasters: > > * The papers at the Italian laboratory sites are often unavailable. The > Italian ISPs seem to be unreliable. > > * Papers at Japanese and Chinese sites often use non-European character > sets (ASCII subsets) that do not display correctly with the US version of > Acrobat. They often have disruptive errors in grammar and spelling. > > * The U.S. Navy papers are uploaded in a peculiar format that takes up 50 > megabytes for papers that we reduce to less than one megabyte. > > * Papers at many other web sites are unstable. They have often become > unavailable after some period of time, or they have been assigned new URLs. All these are prosaic, albeit important, technical issues of storage, etc. that are completely understandable. The boundary problem on the scientific/technical side is what I am talking about. > > * At many sites, papers crammed together under the same URL. Users have to > remember a series of obscure commands to reach the paper they want, or they > have to download many megabytes of other papers in one file, or they have > to perform a search and type in the author's name every time. This > particularly annoying because it is totally unnecessary, and it serves no > purpose. Why not simply assign every paper a unique URL? This problem > occurs at many web sites, including I.E. I have complained about this to > Gene and others many times, but they do nothing to correct it. It annoys > their readers and reduces their traffic. (I know because their readers have > told me so.) This is an amateur programming error. You are off topic. Some day we may be able to hire a full-time programmer, but not now. > > All these deficiencies make it inconvenient to look up papers, and > impossible for authors to include a URL in a footnote for the paper, or > people making other web sites who want to make hyperlinks to specific > papers. So, in these cases, we copy papers rather than pointing to them > with a hyperlink. Fine. >Also, I must admit, the program I wrote to generate the > indexes cannot automatically create & maintain hyperlinks to external > sites. I could modify it, but I have not yet found enough externally > available papers to make it worth my time to do that. > > - Jed That's enough. One clean up job for one night... Dr. Eugene F. Mallove New Energy Foundation, Inc. Infinite Energy Magazine P.O. Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 Ph: 603-485-4700 Fx: 603-485-4710 www.infinite-energy.com (Note NEW phone/fax numbers!) > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 22 21:49:36 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA10589; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:46:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:46:35 -0700 X-Peer-Info: remote-ip 199.125.98.206 local-ip 199.125.85.40 local-name mercury.mv.net User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 00:45:41 -0700 Subject: Re: Papp machine a perfect example From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "vortex l eskimo.com" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030922190420.01bb7848@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"DQQ2O.0.Kb2.h0zR_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51930 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 9/22/03 4:04 PM, "Jed Rothwell" wrote: > I just received the latest copy of I.E., which has many fascinating > articles about the machine produced by Joseph Papp. > > This is a perfect example of what I was talking about this morning. The > machine is speculative. It has not been replicated (I think -- as far as I > have read today, anyway). It is interesting and worthy of investigating, > but it out of my bailiwick. This is not what I do. Two of the topmost investigators in cold fusion (without which the field would be barely alive today), have tested the basic noble gas excess energy process (at one company) and found it to be compelling. > > I have not read all of these I.E. reports yet, but I gather the Papp > machine has not yet been replicated, although several people are making > serious efforts to replicate it. If and when they succeed, then it will be > time for me to take note, and take the thing seriously. The unit process has been replicated independently multiple times. No one has independently made a *cycling* Papp engine -- anymore than anyone has made a robust 100 HP cold fusion engine yet. > > A few machines, such as Roger Stringham's sonic cold fusion device exist in > a kind of netherworld, suspended somewhere between belief in disbelief. His > gadget has not been reproduced as far as I know, but it is similar in many > ways to cold fusion devices. That gives us reason to think it might work, > but of course we must wait for replications. Many claims such as Case's > work sometimes, even though Case himself is not longer able replicate his > own original results. That itself is a false statement. He has decided to go beyond his original catalyst process. > > Please note there is a gigantic difference between my attitude and the > attitude of a so-called skeptic. The skeptic would deny the Papp machine > works, or that it can exist. He would deny it sight unseen, a priori. I > cannot judge whether the Papp gadget works or not. I honestly don't care > whether it works or not. Well, two of the top few people in cold fusion have signed their names to the unit process -- they believe it is real. That's not important? >Until it is replicated, for all intents and > purposes it does not exist. It most certainly does exist as an active research area. But it will become the object of your attacks -- little doubt about that. You have not read the material completely, attempted to discover who has replicated the process, and you are already marginalizing it. Your actions speak louder than your words. > Of course I know that according to conventional > physics theory it cannot work. That goes without saying. But theory is not > an absolute guide to reality. There is always a slight chance it is wrong, > or incomplete. What is real can only be established with certainty by > replicated experiments. > > I will grant there are remarkable eyewitness reports about the Papp > machine, whereas most perpetual motion machine claims I have investigated > have no basis what ever. They are rumors of rumors, and illusions fed by > delusions, like the phantom Iraqi weapons of mass destruction. A reliable > sounding eyewitness report is impressive, but as a touchstone of truth, it > is no better than a physics theory or an expert opinion. It is something > you take seriously, and you respect, but it cannot be the basis for > determining whether a phenomenon exists or not. And the current issue of IE goes way beyond mere eyewitness reports. > > Of course in one sense all papers about experiments are nothing more than > eyewitness reports. You have to take Mizuno's word that he did thus and > such and observed this or that result. Taken to extremes, my method would > demand that I personally observe all experiments before I believe anything. > This is impractical. One must believe the preponderance of formal published > scientific evidence. It is safe to do so because a scientific paper is > qualitatively different from an eyewitness report. The difference is > sometimes difficult to define. Some scientific papers are so badly written, > and so inadequate, they are no better than a muddled eyewitness report. > However, the good ones written by professional scientists are convincing > once you learn how to read them, if you know enough about the subject > matter yourself. > > Over the years, "skeptics" often said to me that cold fusion has no more > proof than the Papp machine. "It is all hearsay and eyewitness reports," > they asserted. Since we began uploading papers I have not heard that as > often. The discussion group at sci.physics.fusion seems to have dried up. > Perhaps they have lost interest. My point is that although eyewitness > reports are interesting, they are nowhere near as compelling as a > bibliography of 3000 formal papers and a collection of 200 plus full text > scientific papers. I think the experimental judgment the two top (for now anonymous) cold fusion scientists as well as that of Mark Hugo/Blair Jenness is not as complete, of course, as many explicitly defined cold fusion papers, but this does not mean that the Papp methodology might not be more important that what is going on in "mainstream" cold fusion. Time and future experiments will be the arbiter. > That is incomparably more convincing. Actually, one > carefully reported positive replication of Papp in a properly written > scientific paper would be more compelling than all the eyewitness reports > one could compile. Adjust your blinders any way you wish. > > - Jed Dr. Eugene F. Mallove New Energy Foundation, Inc. Infinite Energy Magazine P.O. Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 Ph: 603-485-4700 Fx: 603-485-4710 www.infinite-energy.com (Note NEW phone/fax numbers!) > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 22 21:57:03 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA20339; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:54:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:54:13 -0700 X-Peer-Info: remote-ip 199.125.98.206 local-ip 199.125.85.40 local-name mercury.mv.net User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 00:53:18 -0700 Subject: Re: Gene's comments and the paradox of web space From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "vortex l eskimo.com" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4AgID1.0.gz4.p7zR_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51931 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 9/23/03 12:03 AM, "Eugene F. Mallove" wrote: > Lewis of Caltech pontificated about the supposedly thermally non-stratified > cells he said he was using and compared them to what P&F were using. It's > the same brand of reckless, venom-inspired ignorance. In the remark about Lewis's cells I meant, of course, thermally STRATIFIED (not thermally non-stratified) cells. Gene Mallove From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 23 08:07:00 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA03434; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:59:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:59:42 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030923100803.00b03550@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:34:46 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Anonymous reports don't count Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"1L6iT.0.Mr.T_5S_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51932 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Eugene F. Mallove writes: > Two of the topmost investigators in cold fusion (without which the field > would be barely alive today), have tested the basic noble gas excess energy > process (at one company) and found it to be compelling. So what? Until they publish a formal paper, go on record, and answer questions about their work that means nothing to me, or to anyone else. If "science" means anything, it means the formal, open, academic exchange of information. Quantitative, verifiable, specific information -- not vague rumors. The process must be fully open and accountable. People have to stand by their work. They must be willing to discuss it with any well informed critic or interested person. Secret replications done by people who do not have the guts to go on record are not science. That is about as far from science as you can get. > > but of course we must wait for replications. Many claims such as Case's > > work sometimes, even though Case himself is not longer able replicate his > > own original results. > > That itself is a false statement. He has decided to go beyond his original > catalyst process. I know nothing about his work beyond catalysts. As far as I know, he has not been able to make a catalyst work again. The samples he sent to Ed Storms did not produce any measurable heat. Case's own crude, large-scale calorimeter-like cells never worked as far as I know. > > cannot judge whether the Papp gadget works or not. I honestly don't care > > whether it works or not. > > Well, two of the top few people in cold fusion have signed their names to > the unit process -- they believe it is real. That's not important? Not only is it not important, it is non-existent. Unless these people write papers, give lectures and show others how to replicate, their efforts will be a farce and a waste of time -- worse than nothing. > >Until it is replicated, for all intents and > > purposes it does not exist. > > It most certainly does exist as an active research area. No, it has be replicated by several people, and papers have to be published. That makes it scientific research. Anything less makes it a cult, or some sort of premodern medieval counting-angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin operation. > I think the experimental judgment the two top (for now anonymous) cold > fusion scientists I think NOTHING of people's judgement, especially anonymous people! I want facts and quantitative data only. I never take anyone's word for anything. If I cannot judge these facts myself, based on my own knowledge & skill, then I will not judge them at all -- I will remain neutral. > > That is incomparably more convincing. Actually, one > > carefully reported positive replication of Papp in a properly written > > scientific paper would be more compelling than all the eyewitness reports > > one could compile. > > Adjust your blinders any way you wish. Open, academic science is not a blinder. It has brought more light and truth to humanity than any other philosophy ever devised. The traditions of publishing open papers by authors who stand by their work and defend it, and help other replicate, are the essence of the scientific process. Such traditions have served us well for 350 years. They have brought more happiness and progress to humanity than all the strivings of the previous 5,000 years of civilization. I would never abandon or compromise these traditions. They work. Secret anonymous replications do not work. Relying on anonymous expert authoritative opinions does not work. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 23 09:52:43 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA09352; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:41:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:41:10 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030923103520.01b881b8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:40:27 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Gene's comments and the paradox of web space Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"WJ5aj2.0.wH2.aU7S_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51933 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Eugene F. Mallove writes: > Show me the copy of the $15,000 check and I will admit being in error -- if > you have such a check. There is no single check. As you note, I gave money in dribs and drabs, and also I paid for various travel expenses, equipment and whatnot. I think it works out to approximately $15,000 but I am very poor accountant. As you note, others later contributed far more cash. > Formerly, it was Mitch Swartz within CF -- who now has exemplary results, > some of the best in the CFC/LENR field. Swartz's results are not exemplary. Not yet, anyway. They have not been published or replicated yet, so they do not count. As far as I know they have not been independently verified. I am not familiar with his present work, but Storms, Mizuno and others who examined it expressed doubts about his calorimetry. (I do not recall the details -- sorry I cannot be more specific.) His skill in calorimetry is open to question. His multiring calorimeters were poorly designed and ineffective. His published statements about vertical versus horizontal flow calorimetry were preposterous nonsense. > >Furthermore, I > > have said hundreds of times -- here and in the pages of I.E. -- that I make > > no distinctions between anomalous energy sources. > > I am well aware of that. You have no interest in the physics and science > behind it and what it does or does not connect with. Why should I? Do you have any interest in Japanese linguistics, behavioral biology, or early aviation? Is there something wrong, unethical, or impolite about not being interested in one academic subject or another? The number of academic subjects is greater than any person could master in a thousand lifetimes. > "Its over my head." > Everyone has heard that over and over. Indeed, but not often enough. Other people should practice saying that, since most subjects are over most people's heads. The only people I know who say "it is over my head" more often as I do are Arthur Clark, John O'M Bockris and Tadahiko Mizuno. It is much worse to try and judge a subject with inadequate knowledge than to admit frankly that you are incapable of mastering it. Ignorance causes no harm until it is put into action, and people make bad decisions or embark on disastrous projects such as invading countries they know nothing about, or launching misguided cold fusion research projects at MITI. > But somehow you have come to the > false conclusion that CF/LENR is the one and only verified new energy > source. I am quite capable of judging this! The physics of a new energy source will certainly be far over my head, but I can easily understand the techniques used to verify that the new energy source is real. This problem is vastly simpler than, say, Mills' claims about spectroscopy. The techniques for measuring energy have not changed much since 1860. > > of the energy. All I want is a gadget that works. As far as I know, only > > two anomalous energy devices has ever been replicated or independently > > confirmed: cold fusion and the Griggs pump, so those are the only two I am > > interested in. > > What a small-minded view...just waiting for "a gadget that works" . . . Note that I am NOT waiting for the practical, scaled-up gadget. That is what many so-called "skeptics" demand. That is an entirely different thing. It is not a small minded view; it is the traditional experimental scientist's standard. Results must be replicated at high sigma, or they do not exist. That rule must not be broken! When you lower the standards and start admitting rumors or anonymous opinions, anything might be true, or nothing. You might as well join the "skeptics" and decide by looking in the textbooks or waiting for the APS to reveal the truth. > First of all, that claim of yours is 100% falsified by the simplest and most > dramatic experiments of all that HAVE been replicated by others now for > years -- the work of the Graneaus -- conducted in MA, at Oxford University, > and, in Canada, by George Hathaway. Good point! I did overlook the Graneaus. I should add them #3 after CF and Griggs. And as I said, the Mills spectroscopy has been replicated and perhaps should be added to the list, but I cannot judge what connection it may have to his claims about energy. > > Some aspects of the Mills claims relating to spectroscopy have been > > independently replicated, but I do not understand these results or > > theories, I cannot evaluate them, and they appear to have no direct > > relationship to energy production, so they are not in my bailiwick. > > No direct relationship to energy production! As far as I know. > What an astonishing statement. No, there is nothing at all astonishing about the fact that Jed Rothwell does not know enough about spectroscopy to judge whether it has any connection to Mills' claims about energy. That's banal. > I am sure Mike Carrel would readily challenge you on that, as he has in the > past. "Challenge" hardly describes what he could do. He can discuss the issue credibly, and I cannot even follow what he is saying. This is kind of like asserting that I could translate the first chapter of Soseki's masterpiece "Kokoro" (The Heart) with more authority than Mike Carrel could. > BlackLight and its several replicators -- increasing now -- are seeing > the spectral and other anomalies in the very same systems in which they see > significant calorimetric proof of excess power. No one has replicated their calorimetric results as far as I know, so they are not "proof" yet. I have seen many calorimetric results fade away. > There is no such thing as "their Orgone energy" experiment. There are > numerous experiments by the Correas in the field of measurement of aether > energy, and discussions of its relation to what Reich called Orgone energy. > You have read nothing and understood nothing . . . I understand there was no blank, or if there was one, it was not reported. The test means nothing without a blank. The results are too close to the margin. > offensive. Just this week some new furtive remarks of yours came to light. I have never made a "furtive" remark in my life! That's the first insulting thing you have said. > This is such hollow posturing it hardly merits comment. The "sunlight" that > you speak of is the subject of elaborate series of control experiments > discussed in the Correa monographs It was an uncontrolled control experiment. That's my point. > and referenced in some of the papers > published by Infinite Energy. In any event, the Correas now have a > Stirling/Hyborac configuration that has run round-the-clock for over two > days continuously -- i.e. through two nights and two daylight periods. Wonderful. When they publish these results, and the results are replicated, I will believe it. > >I stand by all of those attacks. > > Really? You stand by your attack on the Correas and all these others? Absolutely! With relish. > need to be explained. It is quite evident who and what you are -- that you > think you have a right to attack scientists who have different approaches > than you to life, to commerce, to everything . . . Well of course I do! It is a free country. When I think people do idiotic, self destructive things, I have a right to say so. > Are you saying that Mills is > unscientific, that Correas are unscientific, that Mitch Swartz (of the past) > was unscientific? They do not publish. They have not been replicated. That makes them unscientific. How else do you know when someone is "scientific"? > Ah, back to attacking Mitch Swartz again! He is most certainly NOT keeping > his research secret, so what do you attack him for now? He is keeping secrets now as far as I know. Secret from me, anyway. When I asked him for a list of people who have replicated or verified his work, he told me their names are secret. He has not published any papers I know of. > And you attack > Shoulders too -- who came to ICCF10 at his own expense to show others -- > numerous people -- his ideas about dhow to make demonstration transmutation > devices with a clever design for a mass-spectrometer. He attacked himself. It was a classic WWII banzai charge. Nothing I could say about him condemns him as much as his own words. > > This is the essential difference between medieval scholars like da Vinci > > and modern scientists such as Newton. > > I believe the record shows that Newton kept much of his work well-hidden for > years . . . That's what I said. To the extent he did that, he was not a scientist. He still had one foot stuck in the swamp of medieval scholasticism. That is why he wasted so many years on alchemy. > And, > Newton's alchemy work has been buried not only by HIM ( he was most > secretive about it) , but by the present scientific establishment. I have > much expectation that it will be found that some of his alchemy experiments > will come alive again now that CF/LENR is showing that such experiments must > be re-examined. I have no expectations about experiments that have not yet been performed yet. > Well, then, why don't you join up with the Graneaus - who are proceeding to > try to develop their work technologically? Their work is 100% repeatable > and I think you could understand it if your tried. I am sure I could follow the energy measurement parts. If they want me to edit a paper, I would happy to help. I do not think their work would fit into LENR-CANR, but as I said, the Internet is unbounded and people will find their papers just as easily if they upload them elsewhere. Google found several refs to them, although no paper in the first 20 items. > Why don't you try to give them a > taste of your gentle-touch business advice. Two reasons: 1. I have no idea what business ideas or models they have now. For all I know, they might have better ideas than I do. 2. They haven't asked. The only advice I would offer them at present would be to put a paper on their web site. > > hydride claims only, ignoring all other anomalous energy claims? This is a > > legitimate question. > > Indeed it is a legitimate question, since all physics -- by common > understanding of scientists -- must be unified by underlying principles. But all books in the library are not thrown into one unorganized pile. > > I have three equally legitimate answers, I think: > > > > 1. As far as I know, none of these other claims have ever been > > experimentally verified. > > Wrong, wrong, wrong -- see above. "As far as I know" is not wrong. > Are you equating Mills and Graneaus' experiments with String theory and > multi-universes? Their experiments are not speculative -- they have been > confirmed by outside parties and this is public record. Mills' energy experiments have not been confirmed, as far as I know. I don't know about the Graneaus. > The Correas have published in their > PAGD patents, copiously referencing anomalies in the scientific literature > on arc discharge, quite transparent methodologies for getting excess > electricity. But they have not been replicated. So they don't count. Yet. > > 2. As noted above, I know practically nothing about these other claims, and > > because they have not been replicated I have no interest in studying them. > > You're definition of "replicated" is wanting, I am quite sure of that. And what is your definition of "replication"? It seems like a simple thing to me. Someone else, in some other lab, has to see more or less the same result at a reasonably high s/n ratio, and he has to publish his results. What is so controversial about that? If other people have seen the Mills energy results, who are they and where have they published? > But > you are free to have whatever definition you wish --just don't imagine or > flatter yourself that YOU are the sole judge of that. My definition comes straight out the textbooks. It was firmly established by 1650. What is your definition?!? > > excluding material. For example, suppose at LENR-CANR.org we arbitrarily > > excluded all papers about light water results. This would cause no harm > > > That would cause astonishing harm! It would cause no harm for the technical reasons I listed. It would not impede anyone's access to the papers. Unless, of course, the light water researchers did not bother to upload their papers to some other web site. That would cause harm! That happens a lot. Scientists refuse to upload committee web site, LENR-CANR or other. (It makes no difference to me which site they choose.) > The experimentalists as well as the > theorists need to know what the boundaries are. They do not need any help from me. People like me, who publish data, are no longer arbiters or gatekeepers. The Internet has changed all that. Our job description is now much humbler. Readers can go around us easily. That's a good thing. > If you excluded light water excess heat experiments, this would be a > distortion within the primary area of CF as it has been accepted since 1991. No, it would be librarian's choice of how to organize the stacks (book shelves). It would be noticed by anyone, and it would make no difference, because the library catalog (Google) would instantly direct readers to the correct location anyway. > I find that both Mills and the CF/LENR community would be better served if > they communicated more with one another. That is not my problem. Mills is free to attend CF conferences. > But I have to admit, with you > barking at them, the Millsians won't want to come near. Why would he pay attention to me? He knows that I know nothing about his theory, and he dismisses all of my ideas about business. Or he has deliberately set out to do just the opposite of what I recommend. Let me put it this way. If he writes a book about business strategies you can be sure I will ignore it. > As far as they are > concerned, their work is more solidly replicable than CF/LENR -- and I think > it is. On what basis do you think this? Who has replicated? Where have they published? > is or is not relevant. So, I would say that ALL excess heat, excess energy > experiments that are done with care should be of great interest to those in > CF/LENR. Also, ALL anomalies associated with hydrogen MUST be the subject > of interest -- whether spectral anomalies or nuclear anomalies. That may be true. I cannot judge the physics. But all papers should not be jumbled together in all libraries. People looking for metal hydride CF do not want to search through other papers even if there is some underlying physics connecting them. For that matter, I do not have papers about basic electrochemistry, even though knowledge of it is essential to performing these experiments and everyone agrees the subject is related. In any case LENR-CANR has 120 MB of papers already, and it will soon reach the limit of 200 MB. Unless someone want to chip in $10 more per month for expanded space, I will not add more papers after that. > All these are prosaic, albeit important, technical issues of storage, etc. > that are completely understandable. The boundary problem on the > scientific/technical side is what I am talking about. That's not my department. I am strictly a prosaic person. > > purpose. Why not simply assign every paper a unique URL? This problem > > occurs at many web sites, including I.E. I have complained about this to > > Gene and others many times, but they do nothing to correct it. It annoys > > their readers and reduces their traffic. (I know because their readers have > > told me so.) This is an amateur programming error. > > You are off topic. Some day we may be able to hire a full-time programmer, > but not now. This does not call for a full time programmer. Whoever created your web page could fix the problem in a half hour. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 23 10:17:21 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA03469; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:10:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:10:17 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: Cat Fight! Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:31:33 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"o33rW.0.mr.tv7S_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51934 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hmmmm..... Bilious pages of Gene's bombastic rhetoric, punctuated by Jed's almost autistic digressions? This could only mean one thing. We must be at the end of the financial quarter. Garlic and crosses only work on the undead, so what's to drive off this foolish meme mongering and subliminal advertisement? I say, bring out the big guns, dead German philosophers! http://coolhaus.de/art-of-controversy/ I propose a new game for vortex. We score this thread based on the number of rhetorical methods used by each combatant. Gene tends to lean pretty heavily on #14, whilst Jed has been relying on good old #31 to save his bacon. Me? I'm hoping that my application of #8 will inject some much needed amusement into the proceedings. Now what did I do with that asbestos underwear??? K. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 23 11:06:46 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA07546; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:54:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:54:23 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030923132349.01c05a78@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:53:27 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Cat Fight! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"UgtpO3.0.nr1.EZ8S_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51935 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Keith Nagel points to a handy guide: > http://coolhaus.de/art-of-controversy/ There is a similar interesting list of logical fallacies here: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ On this list, item #6 really irks me: Appeal to Consequences of a Belief. This is common in discussions of morality and theology. The classic expression was what an old woman supposedly said when she first heard about Darwin's theory in 1858: "let us hope that is not true, or if it is true, that does not become generally known." > I propose a new game for vortex. We score > this thread based on the number of rhetorical > methods used by each combatant. Gene tends to > lean pretty heavily on #14, whilst Jed has > been relying on good old #31 to save his > bacon. #31 is: "This is Beyond Me." Schopenhauer describes the technique: "'What you now say passes my poor powers of comprehension; it may be all very true, but I can't understand it, and I refrain from any expression of opinion on it'. In this way you insinuate to the bystanders, with whom you are in good repute, that what your opponent says is nonsense." I hope everyone realizes I am not using this technique. There is no irony or hidden meaning in my words. It really is over my head. This is not a way to "save bacon." On the contrary it is way to wave the white flag; surrender; concede the point to the adversary. For example: Gene: "I am sure Mike Carrel would readily challenge you on that, as he has in the past." Me: "'Challenge' hardly describes what he could do. He can discuss the issue credibly, and I cannot even follow what he is saying." Gene is trying to pick an argument, while I am readily conceding that I know nothing about the subject and I am unprepared to discuss it, let alone argue it. Mike Carrel cannot "challenge" me when I never made any assertions about the spectroscopy in the first place. Any statements that Mallove or Carrel make about that subject will have to be addressed by others, not me. Now if we were discussing Swartz's calorimetry, about which I *have* made technical assertions, then it would be evasive & unfair for me to suddenly say "This is Beyond Me." - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 23 19:05:31 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA22162; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:01:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:01:36 -0700 Message-ID: <410-22003922323142281@mindspring.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: jedrothwell@mindspring.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.0.129.0 (Windows) From: "Jed Rothwell" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Gene's comments and the paradox of web space Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:14:02 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c49518b45171f314d7497b9f8785f162589663e5c6b578e64350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: <"DrNzO1.0.CQ5.0iFS_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51936 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I wrote: > have not been independently verified. I am not familiar with his present > work, but Storms, Mizuno and others who examined it expressed doubts about > his calorimetry. Let me amend that. They expressed some reservations, or uneasiness with some aspects of it. They await confirmation. I would not want to give the impression they condemn it, nor do I. But it must be published and replicated before it becomes "exemplary." > That would cause harm! That happens a lot. Scientists refuse to upload > committee web site . . . That is a voice input error. I have no idea what I said! > > If you excluded light water excess heat experiments, this would be a > > distortion within the primary area of CF as it has been accepted since 1991. > > No, it would be librarian's choice of how to organize the stacks (book > shelves). It would be noticed by anyone, and it would make no difference, I meant it would NOT be noticed by anyone . . . People literally do not notice what web site they are downloading papers from, in many cases. They click on a link and the paper appears. If you do a Goggle search for "light water cold fusion" and you download a paper, you will probably not notice whether I uploaded it into LENR-CANR.org, or someone else uploaded it elsewhere. The only reason to keep LENR-CANR organized and on topic is because some readers do use the index, and many display the filenames directly, and download them in batches. I mean they start here: http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/ I can tell that many people do that, although I have no way of knowing who they are. Naturally, I welcome any method of access readers find convenient. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 24 05:13:52 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id FAA16729; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 05:10:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 05:10:36 -0700 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20030924074547.01742d30@pop.theworld.com> X-Sender: mica@pop.theworld.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:59:12 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: "Dr. Mitchell Swartz" Subject: Re: Gene's comments and the paradox of web space In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030923103520.01b881b8@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-677F51B0; boundary="=======AVGMAIL-3F71895614BD=======" Resent-Message-ID: <"uwurb1.0.H54.ycOS_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51937 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=======AVGMAIL-3F71895614BD======= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-677F51B0; boundary="=====================_4395109==_.ALT" --=====================_4395109==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-677F51B0; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Jed falsely states. > > Formerly, it was Mitch Swartz within CF -- who now has exemplary results, > > some of the best in the CFC/LENR field. > >His multiring calorimeters were poorly designed and ineffective. His >published statements about vertical versus horizontal flow calorimetry >were preposterous nonsense. Jed Rothwell is resuming his unsupported, and unscientific, attacks again. Jed remains scientifically incorrect -- and those who follow his rants are doomed to error. Although there is not time to correct all of Jed's numerous errors, Jed remains confused about calorimetry. The multiring calorimeters are superb and unlike Rothwell's, and some of his friends, they have controls. Often they have several contols - versus your zero for Rothwells "calorimeters". As to Jed's longstanding previous errors using vertical flow calorimetry, the criticisms are correct, have been confirmed theoretically and experimentally, and show ineptness on the part of most who depend upon vertical flow calorimetry. Furthermore, despite Jed's nonsense, anyone who touts Siebert calorimetry uncalibrated (and which can have serious positional errors, too), or vertical flow calorimetry uncalibrated, remains deluded. Hope that helps. Dr. Mitchell Swartz refs on some of Jed Rothwell's errors: Publications on Quality Control and Assurance involving Mr. Rothwell's errors Swartz, M, "Potential for Positional Variation in Flow Calorimetric Systems", Journal of New Energy, 1, 126-130 (1996) Swartz, M, "A Method To Improve Algorithms Used To Detect Steady State Excess Enthalpy", Transactions of Fusion Technology, 26, 156-159 (1994) also: Swartz. M.., "Patterns of Failure in Cold Fusion Experiments", Proceedings of the 33RD Intersociety Engineering Conference on Energy Conversion, IECEC-98-I229, Colorado Springs, CO, August 2-6, (1998) Swartz, M., "Relative Impact of Thermal Stratification of the Air Surrounding a Calorimeter", Journal of New Energy, 2, 219-221 (1996) Swartz, M, "Improved Calculations Involving Energy Release Using a Buoyancy Transport Correction", Journal of New Energy, 1, 3, 219-221 (1996) --=====================_4395109==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-677F51B0; charset=us-ascii

Jed falsely states.

> Formerly, it was Mitch Swartz within CF -- who now has exemplary results,
> some of the best in the CFC/LENR field.

His multiring calorimeters were poorly designed and ineffective. His published statements about vertical versus horizontal flow calorimetry were preposterous nonsense.



  Jed Rothwell is resuming his unsupported, and unscientific, attacks again.

Jed remains scientifically incorrect  -- and those who follow his rants are doomed to error. 

Although there is not time to correct all of Jed's numerous errors,
Jed remains confused about calorimetry.

The multiring calorimeters are superb and unlike Rothwell's, and some of his friends,
they have controls.  Often they have several contols - versus your zero for Rothwells "calorimeters".

 As to Jed's longstanding previous errors using vertical flow calorimetry, the criticisms
are correct, have been confirmed theoretically and experimentally,
and show ineptness on the part of most who depend upon vertical flow calorimetry. 

Furthermore, despite Jed's nonsense, anyone who touts Siebert calorimetry uncalibrated
(and which can have serious positional errors, too),
  or vertical flow calorimetry uncalibrated, remains deluded. 

Hope that helps.

   Dr. Mitchell Swartz <mica@world.std.com>
  


refs on some of Jed Rothwell's errors:
Publications on Quality Control and Assurance involving Mr. Rothwell's errors
Swartz, M, "Potential for Positional Variation in Flow Calorimetric Systems", Journal of New Energy, 1, 126-130 (1996)
Swartz, M, "A Method To Improve Algorithms Used To Detect Steady State Excess Enthalpy", Transactions of Fusion Technology, 26, 156-159 (1994)
also:
Swartz. M.., "Patterns of Failure in Cold Fusion Experiments", Proceedings of the 33RD Intersociety Engineering Conference on Energy Conversion, IECEC-98-I229, Colorado Springs, CO, August 2-6, (1998)
Swartz, M., "Relative Impact of Thermal Stratification of the Air Surrounding a Calorimeter", Journal of New Energy, 2, 219-221 (1996)
Swartz, M, "Improved Calculations Involving Energy Release Using a Buoyancy Transport Correction", Journal of New Energy, 1, 3, 219-221 (1996)

    

--=====================_4395109==_.ALT-- --=======AVGMAIL-3F71895614BD=======-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 24 05:24:11 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id FAA20338; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 05:15:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 05:15:45 -0700 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20030924081135.0170e550@pop.theworld.com> X-Sender: mica@pop.theworld.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:14:49 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: "Dr. Mitchell Swartz" Subject: RE: Cat Fight! In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030923132349.01c05a78@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-42AB726; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"luYGx2.0.dz4.mhOS_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51938 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 01:53 PM 9/23/2003 -0400, Rothwell wrote: >Now if we were discussing Swartz's calorimetry, about which I *have* made >technical assertions, then it would be evasive & unfair for me to suddenly >say "This is Beyond Me." Jed Rothwell has never made any scientific or technical assertions, nor has he ever made consistently accurate statements. Rather, he remains evasive, disingenuous - unchanged. Mr. Rothwell, should you ever want to try a scientific debate based upon accuracy and fact, then Kake te koi. Dr. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 24 06:39:24 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA08559; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 06:35:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 06:35:03 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <1a7.19e495f3.2ca2f75e@aol.com> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:34:22 EDT Subject: Fwd: NASA Goofed To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_1a7.19e495f3.2ca2f75e_boundary" X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10709 Resent-Message-ID: <"OOBkh1.0.e52.7sPS_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51939 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_1a7.19e495f3.2ca2f75e_boundary Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_1a7.19e495f3.2ca2f75e_alt_boundary" --part1_1a7.19e495f3.2ca2f75e_alt_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A lot of this is true. No RF and no spinning. Frank Z --part1_1a7.19e495f3.2ca2f75e_alt_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A lot of this is true.  No RF and no spinning.
Frank Z --part1_1a7.19e495f3.2ca2f75e_alt_boundary-- --part1_1a7.19e495f3.2ca2f75e_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-xi03.mx.aol.com (rly-xi03.mail.aol.com [172.20.116.8]) by air-xi04.mail.aol.com (v96.6) with ESMTP id MAILINXI41-4d03f71302518c; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 01:48:43 2000 Received: from ms-smtp-03.texas.rr.com (ms-smtp-03.texas.rr.com [24.93.36.231]) by rly-xi03.mx.aol.com (v96.6) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINXI32-4d03f71302518c; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 01:48:21 -0400 Received: from ed (cs6711245-125.satx.rr.com [67.11.245.125]) by ms-smtp-03.texas.rr.com (8.12.5/8.12.2) with SMTP id h8O5mEXP009980; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 00:48:20 -0500 (CDT) From: "Ed Fouche" To: Subject: NASA Goofed Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 00:47:56 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C38235.7ECDCD00" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-AOL-IP: 24.93.36.231 ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C38235.7ECDCD00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit They All Told The Truth: The Antigravity Papers http://www.theyalltoldthetruth.com/id53.htm ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C38235.7ECDCD00 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="NASA Goofed.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="NASA Goofed.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.theyalltoldthetruth.com/id53.htm [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.theyalltoldthetruth.com/id53.htm Modified=E0F3CD703C82C30192 ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C38235.7ECDCD00-- --part1_1a7.19e495f3.2ca2f75e_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 24 06:43:05 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA10941; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 06:39:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 06:39:07 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <133.25772a75.2ca2f850@aol.com> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:38:24 EDT Subject: more good stuff from Ed Fouse To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_133.25772a75.2ca2f850_boundary" X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10709 Resent-Message-ID: <"7Mm3M3.0.tg2.xvPS_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51940 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_133.25772a75.2ca2f850_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_133.25772a75.2ca2f850_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-xi04.mx.aol.com (rly-xi04.mail.aol.com [172.20.116.9]) by air-xi04.mail.aol.com (v96.6) with ESMTP id MAILINXI44-4da3f713026158; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 01:48:57 2000 Received: from ms-smtp-03.texas.rr.com (ms-smtp-03.texas.rr.com [24.93.36.231]) by rly-xi04.mx.aol.com (v96.6) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINXI42-4da3f713026158; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 01:48:22 -0400 Received: from ed (cs6711245-125.satx.rr.com [67.11.245.125]) by ms-smtp-03.texas.rr.com (8.12.5/8.12.2) with SMTP id h8O5mEXQ009980; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 00:48:21 -0500 (CDT) From: "Ed Fouche" To: Subject: The Disclosure Project - Outside the Box Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 00:47:57 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C38235.7F094F60" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-AOL-IP: 24.93.36.231 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C38235.7F094F60 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C38235.7F094F60" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C38235.7F094F60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Supporting this contention is the following quote from Ben Rich, former head of the Lockheed Skunkworks. Just prior to his death, he stated to a small group after a lecture that: "We already have the means to travel among the stars, but these technologies are locked up in black projects and it would take an act of God to ever get them out to benefit humanity." He further went on to say that, 'anything you can imagine we already know how to do.' Strong words from a knowledgeable deep insider and words that support what a number of the witnesses stated as well. SCAN DOWN AND READ THIS SECTION: The Disclosure Project Witnesses http://www.disclosureproject.org/Outsidethebox-TedLoderPaper .htm ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C38235.7F094F60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

  

Supporting this contention is the following quote fro= m=20 Ben Rich, former head of the Lockheed Skunkworks.  Just prior to his de= ath,=20 he stated to a small group after a lecture that: "We already have the means=20= to=20 travel among the stars, but these technologies are locked up in black projec= ts=20 and it would take an act of God to ever get them out to benefit humanity."&n= bsp;=20 He further went on to say that, 'anything you can imagine we already know ho= w to=20 do.'  Strong words from a knowledgeable deep insider and words that sup= port=20 what a number of the witnesses stated as well.

SCAN DOWN AND=20= READ=20 THIS SECTION:

The Disclosure Project Witnesses

 = http://www.disclosureproject.org/Outsidethebox-TedLoder= Paper.htm=20

------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C38235.7F094F60-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C38235.7F094F60 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="The Disclosure Project - Outside the Box.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="The Disclosure Project - Outside the Box.url" [DEFAULT]=0D=0ABASEURL=3Dhttp://www.disclosureproject.org/Outsidethebox-TedL= oderPaper.htm=0D=0A=0D=0A[InternetShortcut]=0D=0AURL=3Dhttp://www.disclosure= project.org/Outsidethebox-TedLoderPaper.htm=0D=0AModified=3D008C55724182C301= DA=0D=0A ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C38235.7F094F60-- --part1_133.25772a75.2ca2f850_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 24 06:46:03 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA13730; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 06:43:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 06:43:29 -0700 Message-ID: <001401c382a1$bfe41fd0$136f53d8@asus> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030923103520.01b881b8@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: About Jed and BLP Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:38:47 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"fuAHI2.0.8M3._zPS_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51941 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In the recent 'spirited exchange of views' between Jed and Gene, Jed said: > > [Jed] Some aspects of the Mills claims relating to spectroscopy have been > > > independently replicated, but I do not understand these results or > > > theories, I cannot evaluate them, and they appear to have no direct > > > relationship to energy production, so they are not in my bailiwick. > > [Gene] No direct relationship to energy production! > [Jed] As far as I know. > > [Gene] What an astonishing statement. > [Jed]No, there is nothing at all astonishing about the fact that Jed Rothwell > does not know enough about spectroscopy to judge whether it has any > connection to Mills' claims about energy. That's banal. > > [Gene] I am sure Mike Carrel would readily challenge you on that, as he has in the > > past. > [Jed] "Challenge" hardly describes what he could do. He can discuss the issue > credibly, and I cannot even follow what he is saying. This is kind of like > asserting that I could translate the first chapter of Soseki's masterpiece > "Kokoro" (The Heart) with more authority than Mike Carrel could. [MC] Touche [Gene] BlackLight and its several replicators -- increasing now -- are seeing > > the spectral and other anomalies in the very same systems in which they see > > significant calorimetric proof of excess power. > [Jed] No one has replicated their calorimetric results as far as I know, so they > are not "proof" yet. I have seen many calorimetric results fade away. > MC: Gene has obviously been following BLP work more closely and more comfortably than Jed. What I can say to Jed here is that BLP has performed a very clean 'excess heat' experiment using water bath calorimetry in a setup where the change from the test condition to a control condition requires only the closing of one valve an opening another, to admit a 'control' gas into the system or a 'catalyst' gas into the system. In the 'catalyst' condition, the excess heat release indicates that hydrogen gas is yielding 100 times the energy it would yield if burned. That calculation is not Mills', but Dr. Peter Gluck's, from the experimental data. I might add here that one of the 'catalyst' gases is water vapor, which is ionized by microwaves, releasing atomic hydrogen which is the fuel and ionized oxygen, which is one of the BLP catalysts. This remarkable fact may be a part of other anomalous energy reports involving water and arcs. This is not to say that such is the 'whole story' in effects associated with the Graneaus, plasma electrolysis, or Stanley Meyer. Mills' discovery and isolation of this particular effect should be of great interest to everyone. Having mentioned microwave ionization, I should add that the structure of the calorimetry is such that it cannot be said that the whole system from plug-in-the-wall to measured heat is OU. What can be said is that the heat energy produced from hydrogen with BLP catalysts [which can be noble gases] is markedly greater than combustion of the same quantity of hydrogen. The experiment is designed to show only that. Work to scale up these reactors for a significant power demonstration is in progress at BLP. This experiment was performed at BLP for a crew from Rowan University in NJ as part of a study performed by Rowan with the help of BLP under a NASA contract to see if the BLP reaction might provide a basis for a deep-space thruster. A detailed study of this reaction with a different senior authorship was posted at BLP with the title "Water Bath Calorimetric Study of Excess Heat Generation in "Resonant Transfer" Plasmas, 06/16/03". The senior author, Johnathan Phillips, is associated with the University of New Mexico. Gene is correct that Mills' experiments have found replication in other labs, but little of that has found its way into published literature. It is also true that Mills' papers are now appearing in mainline journals, as can be seen by visiting the "Tech Papers" part of the BLP website. The body of papers is small compared to LENR-CANR, but a remarkable output from a very small crew of investigators. The link between certain spectroscopic measurements and energy production in Jed's sense could be seen as either indirect or utterly fundamental, depending on your comfort with the physics involved. It's a simple measurement which directly shows that hydrogen gas is incredibly hot when it should not be by standard physics. The measurement does not involve calorimetry and its complexities and pitfalls. The measurement is made in a low pressure gas, so the high temperature seen is not yet translated into useful output heat, and is so outside of Jed's area of interest - yet. As Mitch Swartz would say, "Hope this helps". Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 24 07:46:02 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA17555; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:42:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:42:03 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030924100441.01baa1c0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:41:56 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: About Jed and BLP Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"vsnXR1.0.7I4.xqQS_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51942 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mike Carrell writes: > MC: Gene has obviously been following BLP work more closely and more > comfortably than Jed. What I can say to Jed here is that BLP has performed a > very clean 'excess heat' experiment using water bath calorimetry in a setup > where the change from the test condition to a control condition requires > only the closing of one valve an opening another, to admit a 'control' gas > into the system or a 'catalyst' gas into the system. In the 'catalyst' > condition, the excess heat release indicates that hydrogen gas is yielding > 100 times the energy it would yield if burned. That calculation is not > Mills', but Dr. Peter Gluck's, from the experimental data. That is encouraging, but has it been published and replicated yet? Until that happens, the results are not "real." I have seen many promising results fade away because no one could replicate them -- not even the original authors. They might have been real, but that doesn't help. The Case catalyst results and Roger Stringham's work are examples. They might as well never have existed. "Not reproducible" is not literally the same as "false" or "mistaken," but for all practical purposes it is the same outcome. > What can be said is that the heat > energy produced from hydrogen with BLP catalysts [which can be noble gases] > is markedly greater than combustion of the same quantity of hydrogen. The > experiment is designed to show only that. Work to scale up these reactors > for a significant power demonstration is in progress at BLP. Needless to say, if a machine can be scaled up, and prototypes or production models can be sold, it would be better than the academic method of publishing plus replication. I did not mean to imply that replication is the *only* way to confirm a claim. > A detailed study of this reaction with a different senior authorship was > posted at BLP with the title "Water Bath Calorimetric Study of Excess Heat > Generation in "Resonant Transfer" Plasmas, 06/16/03". The senior author, > Johnathan Phillips, is associated with the University of New Mexico. That paper is here: http://www.blacklightpower.com/pdf/technical/CalorimetrySpecial061603.pdf Now *that* looks like a replication! It is encouraging. Very classy calorimetry. If these people continue to see positive results and two or three others join them, the Mills' excess heat claims will gain enormous credibility. Somewhere around 5 to 10 replications would be enough to prove it once and for all for me, especially if they use different forms of calorimetry. > Gene is correct that Mills' experiments have found replication in other > labs, but little of that has found its way into published literature. There is such opposition to this research, it would be unfair to expect publication in mainstream journals. A relaxed definition of "publishing" such as a proceedings or even making the document permanently available on a web page should suffice. Documents published by the company on its own web site fall a little short of "publication," but perhaps that is a matter of taste. If they have been circulated for peer review, they have credibility. > The link between certain spectroscopic measurements and energy production in > Jed's sense could be seen as either indirect or utterly fundamental, > depending on your comfort with the physics involved. It's a simple > measurement which directly shows that hydrogen gas is incredibly hot when it > should not be by standard physics. Just hot? Or energy producing? I gather from the above paper that it produces apparent excess heat. (Something might be anomalously hot without any excess, but that does not seem to be the situation.) > The measurement does not involve > calorimetry and its complexities and pitfalls. The measurement is made in a > low pressure gas, so the high temperature seen is not yet translated into > useful output heat, and is so outside of Jed's area of interest - yet. I repeat, I do not call for "useful output heat." Skeptics demand practical prototypes, or actual commercial machines, but I never have. Gene and others have accused me of holding out for this. That accusation is groundless and unfair. The results were outside my interest because I did not know they had been published and replicated. One replication brings them a lot closer to my attention. Two or three replications published in detail would increase excitation levels considerably. To borrow a chapter title from Townes' book, it would lead to "maser excitement, and a time for reflection." (Apparently he like terrible puns as much as I do.) - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 24 08:14:47 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA00607; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:08:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:08:47 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030924104333.01bb80b8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 11:08:36 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Cat fight Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"6OgJv2.0.D9.-DRS_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51943 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Swartz writes: > Jed Rothwell has never made any scientific or technical assertions, nor > has he > ever made consistently accurate statements. Rather, he remains evasive, > disingenuous - unchanged. Oh come now. That's like Gene claiming I am "furtive." I admit to many faults, but surely evasiveness is not among them. That's like saying Attila the Hun was "timid" or Winston Churchill lacked self confidence. I believe I have made scientific or technical assertions. Let me repeat two of them, that have never been addressed by Swartz and Mallove, and probably never will be: If Swartz's hypothesis about vertical versus horizontal flow calorimeters were correct, it would be impossible to calibrate a vertical flow calorimeter. That is to say, you would never see a heat balance of zero, with either joule heating or electrolysis. That is manifestly not so, so the hypothesis is wrong. A blank run is needed to test the orgone energy box claims. One must place some object which is definitely not an orgone box in the same position as the box, and look for an effect. The object has to have approximately the same size, shape, mass, heat capacity and configuration as the box. It is unclear to me what constitutes an orgone box, but the authors who define that object must agree this blank test object is nothing like it. I suppose the non-box would be made of different material, arranged in a different way. Perhaps a feather pillow would do, or a variety of things such as cardboard boxes, a pinata, a pile of newspapers, and so on. If this test has been done, I did not hear about it. It it has not been done, I do not think any experimental scientist would take the results seriously. None that I have spoken with would. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 24 10:59:20 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA19094; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:48:26 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:48:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20030924174724.50224.qmail@web80404.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:47:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Isabel and Hindenberg To: vortex-L@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"eWv-63.0.Fg4.dZTS_"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51944 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Isabel left a few thoughts in her wake. Most disasters leave behind vivid images - and a fair amount of disinformation. Despite the vivid image that most of us have of the Hindenberg explosion, ordinary oxygen does not react well with most molecules, even H2, until the O2 has been “activated” – that is to say, transformed into “reactive oxygen species” (ROS). The devastating explosions which occur with oxygen are invariably caused by certain carbonaceous molecules, like even lubricating oil, which will spontaneously explode with plain old O2; unlike H2 which nevertheless does eventually release more energy per molecule, once it finally does explode. The Hindenberg's hydrogen fuel inventory was small and probably burnt itself out within a few seconds. Careful investigation shows that the Hindenberg would have burned almost as violently even if it was levitated by Helium. The flames you see on the film clip (with that memorable voice-over of the hysterical reporter - added *after* the filming, for dramatic effect) was only the carbonaceous skin of the Zeppelin. Ah well, such misleading information remains with us today as the “inhumanity” of the spin-doctor. To wax anthropomorphic, we could say that oxygen wants carbon a lot more than it wants hydrogen, which is often just along for the ride, and this is true even if the oxygen is in the form of water. All this background is often necessary to make the point that hydrogen and oxygen will coexist together (albeit dangerously) if such is necessary for whatever purpose (ala the so-called Brown’s gas, or BG). But moreover, in certain narrow circumstances, H2 itself will be the “ash” of oxygen combustion. Long before natural gas was discovered in quantity, our recent ancestors powered their houses with “town gas” a product in which H2 is the ash of combustion. Transformation of oxygen into the ROS reactive state can be accomplished by addition of a single electron, called reduction - the first half of a complex thermodynamic process, known as redox, which has generally been considered to be reversible. It may not be reversible. If water redox reactions are not reversible, for whatever reason (LENR, the hydrino, or ZPE – name your poison) then we can wean ourselves from fossil fuels, because there is something that oxygen wants even more than carbon – the humble electron. The result of this insatiable craving is often the monovalent reduction of oxygen into “peroxide” or superoxide, O2·-. Peroxide is considered both a radical (· dot sign) and an ion (charge of –1). O2 + e- ==> O2·- Peroxide may be our most revealing key to finding OU - and as such, we don’t really need to worry about the underlying source of energy (LENR, the hydrino, or ZPE – name your poison). If it ever comes down to an election, I vote for ZPE as the ultimate source of energy in most OU processes, even CF, for reasons expressed earlier and often on this forum – mostly related to the 3.4 eV photon which may end up being the “common denominator” of OU. BTW, the peroxide/superoxide radical ion is quantitatively (and maybe qualitatively) the most important chemical formed in human metabolism – a 160 lb adult synthesizes about 24 lbs per year or two pounds per month. Thus, we not only see the importance of anti-oxidants such as vitamin C but that is digressing too far, except to say that if animal metabolism is OU to any extent, the instigator of that excess energy is probably the peroxide radical and its ability to “burn water.” Superoxide/peroxide is both an oxidant (electron acceptor) and a reductant (electron donor). Its most important product is the highly reactive hydroxyl radical (HO·), a radical that is so powerful that it will actually “burn” water, as mentioned. It may also participate in a kind of natural “chain reaction,” whereby a single excess electron can play upon the enormous promiscuity of oxygen and catalyze thousands of redox reactions per second. The ash of these natural redox reactions is H2 - hydrogen. The latter recombination of this hydrogen with oxygen at 20,000 feet (where it is formed) is the only logical source for the enormous energy of hurricanes. Isabel, the most recent Atlantic hurricane (moderate sized) dumped more than 2,000 megatons of energy on the Eastern seaboard. If this energy were really “ drawn from the sea” as is the normal rationale, then why is the average sea temperature in the wake of a hurricane often (but not always) higher, not lower? Why does the highest heat gradient occur so high (20,000 ft)? The bottom line in this natrual disaster for the OU experimenter is that understanding the thermodynamics and electrochemistry of oxygen/water combinations is probably as important than any other factor to maximize. Cold fusion, insofar as it demands palladium, is probably at a dead-end for eventual commercialization, but CF may be just a small subset of a much wider vista in which hydrogen and oxygen (alone and in various combinations) are the key players. And the game does not necessarily involve fusion at all, though a kind of low energy fusion may be a misleading side-effect of massive amounts of OU coming from... er, the heavens it seems, or at least 3 miles high... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 24 11:18:08 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA17938; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 11:12:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 11:12:37 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030924140101.00b03608@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:12:25 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Isabel and Hindenberg Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"xPDMS2.0.kN4.JwTS_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51945 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jones Beene writes: > The Hindenberg's hydrogen fuel inventory was small and > probably burnt itself out within a few seconds. > Careful investigation shows that the Hindenberg would > have burned almost as violently even if it was > levitated by Helium. In Hoffman's book "Tomorrow's Energy" this is described in a chapter title: "The Hindenburg Syndrome, or 'Don't Paint Your Dirigible with Rocket Fuel'" > The flames you see on the film > clip (with that memorable voice-over of the hysterical > reporter - added *after* the filming, for dramatic > effect) . . . I believe most newsreel photography back then was taken with silent film. The voice-over by the reporter was the radio broadcast recorded as the accident occurred. It was, as Beene says, added to the film later, in place of the usual music, foley (fake sound effects) and voice-over. The landing was covered live because dirigible landings were still minor news events, somewhat like Shuttle launches are today. Many people remembered the broadcast vividly. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 24 11:55:34 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA21071; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 11:51:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 11:51:19 -0700 Message-id: Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:51:35 -0400 Subject: Ken Shoulders' E mail Address To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: "John Schnurer" References: <20030924174724.50224.qmail@web80404.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20030924174724.50224.qmail@web80404.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"5we5r3.0.-85.cUUS_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51946 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Group, The Header said 'er: I am looking to find Ken Shoulders' E mail address. PLEASE send RSVP off line. I am also looking to find anyone who may know him personally and communicates with him on that level. Please. Thank you. JH From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 24 12:06:14 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA31076; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:00:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:00:50 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030924120129.05530e88@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:02:33 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Subject: Re: Ken Shoulders' E mail Address In-Reply-To: References: <20030924174724.50224.qmail@web80404.mail.yahoo.com> <20030924174724.50224.qmail@web80404.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_138492734==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <"ka6iP3.0.Qb7.XdUS_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51947 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_138492734==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed krscfs@svn.net At 02:51 PM 9/24/2003 -0400, you wrote: >Dear Group, > > The Header said 'er: > > I am looking to find Ken Shoulders' E mail address. PLEASE send > RSVP off >line. > > I am also looking to find anyone who may know him personally and >communicates with him on that level. > > Please. > > Thank you. > > JH Thanks, Steve --=====================_138492734==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" krscfs@svn.net




At 02:51 PM 9/24/2003 -0400, you wrote:
Dear Group,

        The Header said 'er:

        I am looking to find Ken Shoulders' E mail address.  PLEASE send RSVP off
line.

        I am also looking to find anyone who may know him personally and
communicates with him on that level.

        Please.

                        Thank you.

                                                        JH

Thanks,

Steve --=====================_138492734==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 24 17:28:50 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA09789; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:25:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:25:50 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c382fb$79635120$ed5bccd1@asus> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030924100441.01baa1c0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: About Jed and BLP Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:20:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"kv5vk1.0.fO2.DOZS_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51948 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed wrote: > Mike Carrell writes: > > > That is encouraging, but has it been published and replicated yet? Until > that happens, the results are not "real." "Reality" is established by crossing a threshold of agreements, and the scientific method is one of reaching agreement. Existence of a phenomenon does not depend on agreement. > > I have seen many promising results fade away because no one could replicate > them -- not even the original authors. They might have been real, but that > doesn't help. The Case catalyst results and Roger Stringham's work are > examples. They might as well never have existed. "Not reproducible" is not > literally the same as "false" or "mistaken," but for all practical purposes > it is the same outcome. I agree. Theory is useful to the degree that it guides successful experiments and scale-ups. In that respect, Mills' CQM is bitterly attacked by a handful of theorists who believe they have deflated his orbitsphere model of the hydrogen atom. They have not deflated the experimental results, they can only fretfully quibble. > > > > What can be said is that the heat > > energy produced from hydrogen with BLP catalysts [which can be noble gases] > > is markedly greater than combustion of the same quantity of hydrogen. The > > experiment is designed to show only that. Work to scale up these reactors > > for a significant power demonstration is in progress at BLP. > > Needless to say, if a machine can be scaled up, and prototypes or > production models can be sold, it would be better than the academic method > of publishing plus replication. I did not mean to imply that replication is > the *only* way to confirm a claim. I agree again. Mills' work will be slam-dunk proven when he can make copies of a useful machine. He is currently working to couple the heat output of a rector to a Stirling engine. He may not achieve true OU for a while, but it can be said that he can get more energy out of a quantity of hydrogen produced by any means than any other process visible. > > > > A detailed study of this reaction with a different senior authorship was > > posted at BLP with the title "Water Bath Calorimetric Study of Excess Heat > > Generation in "Resonant Transfer" Plasmas, 06/16/03". The senior author, > > Johnathan Phillips, is associated with the University of New Mexico. > > That paper is here: > > http://www.blacklightpower.com/pdf/technical/CalorimetrySpecial061603.pdf > > Now *that* looks like a replication! It is encouraging. Very classy > calorimetry. If these people continue to see positive results and two or > three others join them, the Mills' excess heat claims will gain enormous > credibility. Somewhere around 5 to 10 replications would be enough to prove > it once and for all for me, especially if they use different forms of > calorimetry. Several different forms of calorimetry have already been used by BLP, including Calvet cells and others. Specific experiments give different numbers because the techniques are a bit different. However, dramatic heat release has been reported in many runs of the equipment. > > > > Gene is correct that Mills' experiments have found replication in other > > labs, but little of that has found its way into published literature. > > There is such opposition to this research, it would be unfair to expect > publication in mainstream journals. A relaxed definition of "publishing" > such as a proceedings or even making the document permanently available on > a web page should suffice. Documents published by the company on its own > web site fall a little short of "publication," but perhaps that is a matter > of taste. If they have been circulated for peer review, they have credibility. It isn't so much opposition as pointed ignoring. Papers which emphasize Mills' Classical Quantum Mechanics (CQM) get automatically rejected. Papers which emphasize experiments showing anomalous results and explanations relating to what I have called "Mills' Rules" concerning selection of catalysts and sub-ground states are being accepted. References to CQM are buried in the footnotes in these papers. BLP postings have the form of a paper, and some are reviewed by nameless friendly sources. Many of these are now published in peer reviewed journals, including Physics Review and journals of the IEEE. Many more are to be found in second rank but peer reviewed journals. Submitted or published papers may be listed by title in the website, but the content has been stripped of equations and or illustrations as copyright passes to the publishing journals. > > > > The link between certain spectroscopic measurements and energy production in > > Jed's sense could be seen as either indirect or utterly fundamental, > > depending on your comfort with the physics involved. It's a simple > > measurement which directly shows that hydrogen gas is incredibly hot when it > > should not be by standard physics. > > Just hot? Or energy producing? I gather from the above paper that it > produces apparent excess heat. (Something might be anomalously hot without > any excess, but that does not seem to be the situation.) You make an important distinction. The spectroscopic measurements indicate that the hydrogen gas atoms are moving at very high velocities, a direct indication of temperature in the range of 100,000+ K. Because the gas is rarefied, about 1/1000 atmospheric pressure, there is little heat in the kinetic energy of the gas. Its temperature is simply evidence that something dramatic is happening. However, much of the energy of the BLP reaction is released as extreme UV radiation, which is absorbed by the reaction chamber and heats it. In the experiment cited, the reaction chamber is a length of quartz tubing passing through a microwave cavity but exposed to the water bath. The tubing gets hot and by conduction heats the water. > > > The measurement does not involve > > calorimetry and its complexities and pitfalls. The measurement is made in a > > low pressure gas, so the high temperature seen is not yet translated into > > useful output heat, and is so outside of Jed's area of interest - yet. > > I repeat, I do not call for "useful output heat." Skeptics demand practical > prototypes, or actual commercial machines, but I never have. Gene and > others have accused me of holding out for this. That accusation is > groundless and unfair. I know. The problem that Mills faces now is that while the reaction per atom yields energy in excess of that necessary to split water to get the hydrogen atom, there are competing processes in the reactor that combine H atoms into molecules, can cause the ionized catalysts to revert to ground state, requiring more energy to create the conditions for the reaction occur. In the cited paper, there is a statement that it appears that nearly all the hydrogen atoms were converted to H(1/4), a lower hydrino state yielding more energy that H(1/2). He faces engineering problems in managing the gas dynamics and scaling the apparatus up so that the per-atom energy yield usefully exceeds the losses in the utilization system for keeping the process going. In a way, this is not different from the LENR problem. It is clear that the reaction at the active sites is very intense, but nobody know how to manufacture active sites stably and in quantity. Mills is well ahead in this regard, for he does not require 'active sites', just conditions for close encounters between hydrogen atoms and catalyst atom(s). > > The results were outside my interest because I did not know they had been > published and replicated. One replication brings them a lot closer to my > attention. Two or three replications published in detail would increase > excitation levels considerably. To borrow a chapter title from Townes' > book, it would lead to "maser excitement, and a time for reflection." > (Apparently he like terrible puns as much as I do.) Stay tuned. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 25 08:24:09 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA19317; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 08:18:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 08:18:25 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1a7.19e495f3.2ca2f75e@aol.com> References: <1a7.19e495f3.2ca2f75e@aol.com> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:18:27 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Fwd: NASA Goofed Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1147619378==_ma============" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <"JlITC2.0.lj4.0TmS_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51949 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1147619378==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Frank Zinardic Posted two websites The http://www.disclosureproject.org website is more of what I've been reading for years. The same cast of researchers and the same unreproducable results. The other website, http://www.theyalltoldthetruth.com would have us believe that NASA can't figure out how to do the Podelklintenov experiment. Frank, do you think that there are any significant phenomena touched on by either of those websites? I'd ask the people behind the website, but they aren't accepting emails, the have too many already. --============_-1147619378==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: Fwd: NASA Goofed


Frank Zinardic Posted two websites The  http://www.disclosureproject.org website is more of what I've been reading for years. The same cast of researchers and the same unreproducable results.

The other website,  http://www.theyalltoldthetruth.com would have us believe that NASA can't figure out how to do the Podelklintenov experiment.

Frank, do you think that there are any significant phenomena touched on by either of those websites? I'd ask the people behind the website, but they aren't accepting emails, the have too many already.
--============_-1147619378==_ma============-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 25 09:37:44 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA01912; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:33:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:33:30 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030925113331.00baa598@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:33:20 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: About Jed and BLP Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"4vKnR2.0.eT.PZnS_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51950 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell writes: > > That is encouraging, but has it been published and replicated yet? Until > > that happens, the results are not "real." > > "Reality" is established by crossing a threshold of agreements, and the > scientific method is one of reaching agreement. Existence of a phenomenon > does not depend on agreement. Right, of course. Some of these modern philosophers of science actually claim that knowledge attitudes define reality in some sense, but that is not what I meant. I meant "real for all practical purposes" or "real as far as we can tell." Most philosophers and old-fashioned philosophers of science agree that we can never know with perfect certainty whether something is actually real or not. It is always a matter of degree: you can be 99% certain, or 99.9999%, but not 100%, just as you can never have a 100% pure macroscopic sample of gold. (I think people can make 100% pure microscopic element samples these days, with lasers holding the atoms still.) When I demand publication and replication, I admit that is somewhat arbitrary, and subjective. People define "publishing" differently. They do not always agree that a second experiment is a replication. An expert may feel it was too different to be called a replication. No one can say how many replications are enough. Some people are satisfied by one or two, others hold out for five or 10. It only becomes unreasonable when a pathological skeptic demands 100 replications. Somewhere between 10 and 100, reasonable doubt segues into irrational denial. Who can say exactly where? It depends upon how good the replications are, how high the signal-to-noise ratio is, how much you trust the researchers. Subjective judgment and taste are mixed up with objective standards, because we are only human. > I agree again. Mills' work will be slam-dunk proven when he can make copies > of a useful machine. He is currently working to couple the heat output of a > reactor to a Stirling engine. I think this may be a mistake. It would be a great idea if he could pull it off in the month, but such projects tend to drag on for months, without success. It would be better to use resources helping other people reproduce calorimetric experiments. Calorimetry will not convince everyone. It may not convince as many as a Stirling engine would. But it will convince enough people to accomplish his purposes, and it is probably cheaper, and easier to replicate. So as a business strategy it may be less risky. > > Just hot? Or energy producing? I gather from the above paper that it > > produces apparent excess heat. . . . > > You make an important distinction. The spectroscopic measurements indicate > that the hydrogen gas atoms are moving at very high velocities, a direct > indication of temperature in the range of 100,000+ K. Because the gas is > rarefied, about 1/1000 atmospheric pressure, there is little heat in the > kinetic energy of the gas. Not only that, but calorimetry with macroscopic amounts of gas can be complicated. It sometimes produces unexpected or counterintuitive results, such as a rapid buildup of heat. This happens with a gas flow or with a pressurized container. Gas pressure, the type of gas, the inside wall of the cell, conduction and so on play complicated roles. Mizuno spent months working on this problem. I don't mean that gas calorimetry is impossible, but it can be tricky, so I think liquid is a better choice for the working fluid. I am pleased to see this replication depends upon liquid temperatures. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 25 10:04:47 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA18086; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:56:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:56:33 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <1e1.1081a371.2ca477f8@aol.com> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:55:20 EDT Subject: Re: NASA Goofed To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_1e1.1081a371.2ca477f8_boundary" X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10709 Resent-Message-ID: <"eRcJY.0.UQ4.1vnS_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51951 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --part1_1e1.1081a371.2ca477f8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/25/2003 11:23:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, temalloy@metro.lakes.com writes: > Frank, do you think that there are any significant phenomena touched on by > either of those websites? I'd ask the people behind the website, but they > aren't accepting emails, the have too many already. > Yes, I was at the Marshall Spaceflight Center to witness the experiments. The 3 megahertz radio signal suggested by Potkletnov was never applied. The disk was never spun at high speed. How could they spent 1/2 million dollars and never finished the experiment eludes me. The product of a 1/3 meter disk stimulated at 3 megahertz equals one megahertz meter. In cold fusion the product of the 50nm clusters thermally stimulated at @10exp14 hertz equals one megahertz meter. I believe Podkletnov is telling the truth and both phenomena are related. It is the basis of my theorem "The Constants of motion converge in a Bose condensate that is stimulated at a dimensional frequency of one megahertz-meter. I took pictures while at Marshall posted at: http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapter2.html Frank Znidarsic --part1_1e1.1081a371.2ca477f8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 9/25/2003 11:23:19 AM Eastern Stand= ard Time, temalloy@metro.lakes.com writes:


Frank, do you think that there=20= are any significant phenomena touched on by either of those websites? I'd as= k the people behind the website, but they aren't accepting emails, the have=20= too many already.


Yes, I was at the Marshall Spaceflight Center to witness the experiments. The 3 megahertz radio signal suggested by Potkletnov was never applied.
The disk was never spun at high speed.
How could they spent 1/2 million dollars and never finished the experiment eludes me.  The product of a 1/3 meter disk stimulated at 3 megahertz e= quals one megahertz meter.  In cold fusion the product of the 50nm clus= ters thermally stimulated at @10exp14 hertz equals one megahertz meter. = ;  I believe Podkletnov is telling the truth and both phenomena are rel= ated.  It is the basis of my theorem "The Constants of motion converge=20= in a Bose condensate that is stimulated at a dimensional frequency of one me= gahertz-meter.  I took pictures while at Marshall posted at:

http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapter2.html


Frank Znidarsic --part1_1e1.1081a371.2ca477f8_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 25 10:09:23 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA23502; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:03:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:03:49 -0700 Message-ID: <410-22003942517338468@mindspring.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: jedrothwell@mindspring.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.0.129.0 (Windows) From: "Jed Rothwell" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: About Jed and BLP Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 13:03:38 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191ca7d0ea1d6de9904d55c446aad6c39a8f773bb16c9ad91485350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: <"oHGVb3.0.ik5.p_nS_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51952 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: > pressurized container. Gas pressure, the type of gas, the inside wall of > the cell, conduction and so on play complicated roles. I meant convection. I think that complicates things more than conduction. Mizuno was measuring the temperature of a proton conductor mounted to a large block of copper. The copper block and sample were suspended in the gas chamber by a rod, which conducted some of the heat. The counterintuitive temperature rises occurred in the sample, not so much in the gas temperature, as I recall. Some of those temperature rises were real excess heat, because the power going into the proton conductor was much too small to measure. Anyway, the temperature to power ratio can be tricky. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 25 10:42:16 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA15587; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:36:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:36:40 -0700 Message-ID: <3F732783.9070204@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 13:36:03 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: NASA Goofed References: <1e1.1081a371.2ca477f8@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <1e1.1081a371.2ca477f8@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"IF9rQ2.0.Lp3.dUoS_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51953 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com wrote: > Yes, I was at the Marshall Spaceflight Center to witness the experiments. > The 3 megahertz radio signal suggested by Potkletnov was never applied. > The disk was never spun at high speed. > How could they spent 1/2 million dollars and never finished the experiment > eludes me. The product of a 1/3 meter disk stimulated at 3 megahertz > equals one megahertz meter. In cold fusion the product of the 50nm > clusters thermally stimulated at @10exp14 hertz equals one megahertz > meter. I believe Podkletnov is telling the truth and both phenomena > are related. It is the basis of my theorem "The Constants of motion > converge in a Bose condensate that is stimulated at a dimensional > frequency of one megahertz-meter. I took pictures while at Marshall > posted at: > > http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapter2.html My understanding was that they were not trying to replicate Podkletnov, but implementing Ning Li's experiment. Her theory does not require spinning. Wasn't it only after Dr. Li packed up and went back to China that NASA consulted Eugene? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 25 11:41:14 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA27172; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 11:35:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 11:35:16 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <1ef.105b08d5.2ca48f34@aol.com> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 14:34:28 EDT Subject: Re: NASA Goofed To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_1ef.105b08d5.2ca48f34_boundary" X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10712 Resent-Message-ID: <"Bv8Hb.0.Pe6.aLpS_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51954 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --part1_1ef.105b08d5.2ca48f34_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/25/03 1:41:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, blantont@rtpatlanta.com writes: > My understanding was that they were not trying to replicate Podkletnov, > but implementing Ning Li's experiment. Her theory does not require > spinning. Wasn't it only after Dr. Li packed up and went back to China > that NASA consulted Eugene? > I met Lot Brantley. They were trying to do a lot and they were not sure of what they were doing. Lot asked me, "What purpose does the radio wave serve?" I had no clue. I now believe I know the purpose of the waves. If this ever comes together this will prove to be a good story. NASA could not fabricate disks strong enough to spin at high speed. Podkletnov could do this. Podkletnov was helping Gains to fabricate a high speed disk for NASA I'm not sure it was ever made. Funding was pulled, Noever was fired, Li left. I believe that was the end of it. Supposedly British Aerospace picked up the project in Project Greenglow. From what I could find out they only did a paper study. Nothing that I know about is happening now. Potletknov and I have exchanged Emails. He is working on his own looking for funding. Going back to cold fusion Why does the CETI cell have a positive temperature coefficient? Why does laser stimulation help? Why did infrared stimulation help some of the CETI cells? Thermal energy in this range only equals an electron volt or so. How can this influence mega electron volt nuclear reactions? I've been thinking about this and have a paper at the Internation Journal of Physics. Its been there 50 days. It did not get the usual immediate reject. I hope it goes through. I hope I can shed some light on this subject. ref http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chaptera.html Frank Znidarsic --part1_1ef.105b08d5.2ca48f34_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 9/25/03 1:41:59 PM Eastern Daylight= Time, blantont@rtpatlanta.com writes:


My understanding was that they=20= were not trying to replicate Podkletnov,
but implementing Ning Li's experiment.  Her theory does not require spinning.  Wasn't it only after Dr. Li packed up and went back to China=
that NASA consulted Eugene?


I met Lot Brantley.  They were trying to do a lot and they were not sur= e of what they were doing.  Lot asked me,  "What purpose does the=20= radio wave serve?"  I had no clue. I now believe I know the purpose of=20= the waves. If this ever comes together this will prove to be a good story.
NASA could not fabricate disks strong enough to spin at high speed.  Po= dkletnov could do this.  Podkletnov was helping Gains to fabricate a hi= gh speed disk for NASA  I'm not sure it was ever made.  Funding wa= s pulled, Noever was fired, Li left.  I believe that was the end of it.=   Supposedly British Aerospace picked up the project in Project Greengl= ow.  From what I could find out they only did a paper study.  Noth= ing that I know about is happening now.  Potletknov and I have exchange= d Emails.  He is working on his own looking for funding.

Going back to cold fusion  Why does the CETI cell have a positive tempe= rature coefficient?  Why does laser stimulation help?  Why did inf= rared stimulation help some of the CETI cells?  Thermal energy in this=20= range only equals an electron volt or so.  How can this influence mega=20= electron volt nuclear reactions?  I've been thinking about this and hav= e a paper at the Internation Journal of Physics.  Its been there 50 day= s.  It did not get the usual immediate reject.  I hope it goes thr= ough. I hope I can shed some light on this subject. ref

http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chaptera.html

Frank Znidarsic

 --part1_1ef.105b08d5.2ca48f34_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 25 12:11:05 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA18338; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:04:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:04:54 -0700 Message-ID: <3F733C36.8030702@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 15:04:22 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: NASA Goofed References: <1ef.105b08d5.2ca48f34@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <1ef.105b08d5.2ca48f34@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"NrhHZ3.0.SU4.MnpS_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51955 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com wrote: > I met Lot Brantley. They were trying to do a lot and they were not > sure of what they were doing. Lot asked me, "What purpose does the > radio wave serve?" I had no clue. I now believe I know the purpose of > the waves. If this ever comes together this will prove to be a good story. According to Dr. Li's unpublished paper, it put the lattice ions in lockstep. I have a copy around here somewhere. I guess there's no reason not to let it out now that she's out of country if you want to send me your snail mail address. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 25 13:30:23 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA24937; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 13:24:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 13:24:36 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <1ed.105a583e.2ca4a8d0@aol.com> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 16:23:44 EDT Subject: Re: NASA Goofed To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_1ed.105a583e.2ca4a8d0_boundary" X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10712 Resent-Message-ID: <"fRZjb.0.Z56.3yqS_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51956 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_1ed.105a583e.2ca4a8d0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, I would like a copy if its not to much troubble. Frank Znidarsic 481 Boyer St. Johnstown PA 15906 --part1_1ed.105a583e.2ca4a8d0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, I would like a copy if its not to much troubble.<= BR>
Frank Znidarsic
481 Boyer St.
Johnstown PA  15906 --part1_1ed.105a583e.2ca4a8d0_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 25 13:54:30 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA11557; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 13:50:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 13:50:02 -0700 Message-ID: <410-220039425204958500@mindspring.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: jedrothwell@mindspring.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.0.129.0 (Windows) From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: OFF TOPIC Microsoft monoculture allows virus spread Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 16:49:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191ca7d0ea1d6de9904dd3c443b0de353c747c7233ee4b332ceb350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: <"iwbHt1.0.Tq2.vJrS_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51957 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: See: http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994203 This is what I have been saying for years. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 25 19:01:47 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA16321; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 18:56:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 18:56:55 -0700 Message-ID: <003101c383d0$8e5865e0$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Candidate with at least some ALT-ENRG ties Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 18:50:22 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002E_01C38395.DFFA6280" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: <"Phmwx1.0.s-3.dpvS_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51958 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C38395.DFFA6280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FWIW - Gen. Wesley Clark, former Allied Commander of NATO and one of the = nation=92s most highly decorated military officers, has thrown his hat = into the ring for President - this is not in any way an endorsement - = only a factoid about his apparent "orientation" - well, at least = towards *alternative energy* - for those who might think that this kind = of thing is somehow important to our future... Clark was recently named Chairman of the Board of WaveCrest = Laboratories, a Dulles, Va.-based technology company that has developed = a supposedly breakthrough electric propulsion system... or at least that = is their (WaveCrest's) spin on it... OTOH Clark is not exactly either a dedicated Dem. or even a zealot in = politics - he has in the past offered lavish praise for the Bush Admin. = and its key players (in a speech to Republicans two years ago). Sounds = like a real fence-staddler. Maybe he is also on the board of Exxon, who = knows....? Interesting query:=20 How many vortexians would "vote their conscience" with regard to free = energy - all else being equal...? Jones ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C38395.DFFA6280 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
FWIW - Gen. Wesley Clark, former Allied Commander of NATO and = one of=20 the nation=92s most highly decorated military officers, has thrown his = hat into=20 the ring for President - this is not in any way an endorsement - = only a=20 factoid about his apparent "orientation"  - well, at = least=20 towards *alternative energy* - for those who might think that this kind = of=20 thing is somehow important to our future...
 
Clark was recently named Chairman of the Board of WaveCrest = Laboratories, a=20 Dulles, Va.-based technology company that has developed a supposedly=20 breakthrough electric propulsion system... or at least that is their=20 (WaveCrest's) spin on it...
 
OTOH Clark is not exactly either a dedicated Dem. or even a = zealot in=20 politics -  he has in the past offered lavish praise for the = Bush=20 Admin. and its key players (in a speech to Republicans two years ago). = Sounds=20 like a real fence-staddler. Maybe he is also on the board of Exxon, who=20 knows....?
 
Interesting query:
How many vortexians would "vote their conscience" with regard to = free=20 energy - all else being equal...?
 
Jones
------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C38395.DFFA6280-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 25 20:44:28 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA19654; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 20:42:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 20:42:28 -0700 From: Yakov Reply-To: rockcast@earthlink.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: NASA Goofed Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 23:44:33 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <1e1.1081a371.2ca477f8@aol.com> <3F732783.9070204@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: <3F732783.9070204@rtpatlanta.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309252344.33154.rockcast@earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: <"ecfcc2.0.oo4.YMxS_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51959 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thursday 25 September 2003 13:36, Terry Blanton wrote: > FZNIDARSIC@aol.com wrote: > > Yes, I was at the Marshall Spaceflight Center to witness the experiments. > > The 3 megahertz radio signal suggested by Potkletnov was never applied. > > The disk was never spun at high speed. > > How could they spent 1/2 million dollars and never finished the > > experiment eludes me. The product of a 1/3 meter disk stimulated at 3 > > megahertz equals one megahertz meter. In cold fusion the product of the > > 50nm clusters thermally stimulated at @10exp14 hertz equals one megahertz > > meter. I believe Podkletnov is telling the truth and both phenomena are > > related. It is the basis of my theorem "The Constants of motion converge > > in a Bose condensate that is stimulated at a dimensional frequency of one > > megahertz-meter. I took pictures while at Marshall posted at: > > > > http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapter2.html > > My understanding was that they were not trying to replicate Podkletnov, > but implementing Ning Li's experiment. Her theory does not require > spinning. Wasn't it only after Dr. Li packed up and went back to China > that NASA consulted Eugene? Now I wonder what she is doing in China right now. Rest assured it is not knitting! There is a good chance her quantum spins idea may have some merit. We will know when the Chinese develope anti gravity space shuttles with nuclear power supplies and laser weapons. At that time there may be some folks in 'established' bureaus that will wish that they had treated her better........mainly because their careers will be over. Me, when that day comes I will get a Mandarin and Cantonese language instruction program so that my kids will be able to get into college. Yakov From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 25 22:49:54 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id WAA27917; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 22:47:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 22:47:44 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <003101c383d0$8e5865e0$8837fea9@cpq> References: <003101c383d0$8e5865e0$8837fea9@cpq> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 00:48:01 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Candidate with at least some ALT-ENRG ties Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <"AXkAF1.0.7q6.0CzS_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51960 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene Posted >Interesting query: >How many vortexians would "vote their conscience" with regard to >free energy - all else being equal...? I heard a military man quoted on the radio that General Clark left his last assignment because of personal character problems. He is reported to have acquired his fourth star as a result of his connections with Bill Clinton. I wouldn't vote for him under any conditions. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 26 06:16:05 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA13511; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 06:13:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 06:13:16 -0700 X-Sender: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 05:21:11 -0800 To: Vortex-L@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Microsoft monoculture allows virus spread Resent-Message-ID: <"eP6Er.0.0J3.ij3T_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51961 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:49 PM 9/25/3, Jed Rothwell wrote: >See: > >http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994203 > >This is what I have been saying for years. Views like this can be hazardous to those who express them. See: Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 26 07:25:28 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA22286; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 07:22:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 07:22:16 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030926100758.01c09260@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:22:13 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Mizuno reports on Earthquake in Hokkaido Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"_OW-e3.0.xR5.Mk4T_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51962 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Here are parts of a message from Mizuno, edited by me. The New York Times reports there have no deaths so far, which is amazing. The 1995 Kobe quake was 7.2, and it killed more than 6,000 people. This one was 8 at the epicenter offshore, and around 6 in some populated areas (Yomiuri), an order of magnitude less. The Yomiuri online just now reported casualties are now 436, and two people are missing. - Jed - - - - - - - - - - - - Hokkaido suffered from the strong earthquake twice this morning. The seismic intensity was about 4-5 in Sapporo, so fortunately damage was a minimum in the school and in my house. The laboratory at the university is settled to some extent, [and objects fell over]. There were two shocks at 4:50AM and 6:00AM around Doto and the Hidaka provinces on the 26th. According to the Meteorological Agency, the whole area was shaken but the sieismic intensity was six or less at the epicenter which was around Kushiro, Shikaoi-cho and Niikappu in the Hidaka jurisdiction, the Shizunai-cho, the Urakawa-cho, and the Tokachi jurisdiction, Makubetsu, Toyokoro, Churui, and the Kushiro jurisdictions. At the hypocenter, which is presumed to be about 42 kilometers off the coast of Kushiro, the magnitude was roughly 8.0. A tsunami (tidal wave) of 1.3 meters in height maximum was observed around the Pacific Ocean side in the road due to this earthquake. According to the Hokkaido police, a special express train was derailed in the Kushiro jurisdiction Onbetsu-cho and an oil storage tank in a refinery at Tomakomai City caught on fire, injuring one person. The number of seriously and moderatly injured people is expected to pass 200. Many people were hurt by falling celluloid board [from ceilings - I think]. Transport links such as JR railroad and national highways have been cut in various places. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 26 09:11:13 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA30895; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:06:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:06:56 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Microsoft monoculture allows virus spread Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:28:55 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"9b6-X.0.VY7.VG6T_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51963 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You all seem to forget that we had this "nerdvana" up until the mid 90's. Were their viruses? Yup. Was there hacking? U bet! Heterogeneity is great for living ecosystems, but sucks for manufactured goods. If we apply this thinking to cars, we'd have different sized roads, tires, etc for each state??? Certainly more secure, imagine the bank robber crossing state lines and suddenly running his n-gauge car on o-gauge tracks. But it's not a world we'd be very effective in either. It's true that such a uniform population as we have is more susceptible to failure, but bear in mind that with billions of nearly identical humans on the planet we haven't all died from disease yet... To carry the analogy further, there are about as many versions of MS windows running out there as there are grossly distinct races of man. Viruses and hacks tend to take advantages of system faults which are NOT common to all versions, case in point that last virus mentioned here ( the one MS wanted you to upgrade for so you would be susceptible (chuckle)). The monoculture you speak of is only as uniform as we ourselves are... I don't argue with the premise, but I suggest a closer study will reveal a much less threatening picture than that described by the security analysts. K. -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner@mtaonline.net] Sent: Friday, September 26, 2003 9:21 AM To: Vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Microsoft monoculture allows virus spread At 4:49 PM 9/25/3, Jed Rothwell wrote: >See: > >http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994203 > >This is what I have been saying for years. Views like this can be hazardous to those who express them. See: Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 26 11:06:10 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA11410; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:01:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:01:48 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030926115805.01c0c9e0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 14:01:48 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC Thoughts about the do-not-call list and technology Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"i8HhE2.0.7o2.Cy7T_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51964 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: There has been a lot of commotion about the federal do-not-call list lately. The most recent objection raised in the courts is that it interferes with commercial free speech but it does not affect the free speech of politicians, fundraisers and some other groups. This strikes me as a valid objection, although tenuous. Anyway, I would like to point out an aspect of this which has been overlooked in the press. Anyone can solve the telemarketer problem for $80, by buying a telephone with a special answering machine that requires callers to dial a secret code. See, for example: "PrivateTime telephone" http://www.command-comm.com/pt1000_brochure.html People who are savvy about high-tech gadgets have known about these things for a long time. (I thought about getting one of these years ago when I got a spate of telemarketing calls, but I decided not to because some of the people who call me are old and would have difficulty remembering the secret code.) The point is, telemarketing calls, Internet spam, unappetizing fast food, ugly houses and other shoddy, annoying technology mainly hurts poor people, and people who are stupid, or ignorant, or who have not had a chance to shop around for a solution. It is a little strange to be worrying about constitutional rights when a simple technological solution could erase the problem overnight. No one would claim that 50 million Americans have no right to buy a telephone answering machine, so it makes little sense to say they have no right to sign up on a list that blocks telemarketers the way an advanced answering machine does. If the PrivateTime telephone could be re-engineered into a gadget that costs five dollars at the grocery store, 50 million people would buy one and the telemarketing problem would go away without intervention from Congress or the courts. Internet spam can be eliminated easily with a few changes to mail protocols, or with a permission-based white list such as the one I am using from EarthLink, or the one at spamarrest.com. These programs are 100 percent effective. They place only a small burden on legitimate correspondents. They sidestep constitutional issues with a technical fix. Looking at the larger picture, and getting somewhat back on topic, I predict that many social problems and political conundrums will, in the distant future, be fixed by technical means. Energy is the biggest political, moral and economic problem of our time. Fossil fuel in particular is the source of most economic power, and most pollultion. It was the deciding factor in World War II, it has triggered two major wars since then, and it is the source of most terrorist funding. It is probably the single greatest threat to the survival of the human race and the planet, if global warming is real, which seems increasingly likely to me. But, of course, if cold fusion or something similar can be commercialized the entire problem would disappear in a few years, along with the largest industry on earth. The problem would not be ameliorated or contained: it would be wiped out, like smallpox. Some conservatives such as the infamous anti-CF John Horgan think that technology and science are petering out, and the future will be much like the present. We can look forward to marginal, incremental improvements only. These people themselves are working night and day to fulfill their own prediction, by squashing academic freedom, killing science, and prevent progress. I suppose they are evil, but I am sure they also sincere. They really are genuinely incapable of imagining the future can be much different from the present. I have spoken with them often, and I think the reason they feel this way is because they resemble primitive tribesmen or children. They live in the timeless instant; only the present means anything to them. They know nothing of the past, and therefore they imagine that the present is an endless continuum in both directions. Things were never any different, and cannot ever change. Of course Horgan knows actual history. He has read history books. But I get a sense he somehow does not connect to it, or he does not believe in it at some subconscious level. He is like an unhappy misfit who has visited with many happy families and loving couples, yet who convinces himself that all marriages are a miserable sham and true love does not exist. Some say it is a gift to live for the present, without a concern for the future or the burden of the past, but I see that as a prison. A sense of timelessness prevented progress for thousands of years. People who cannot imagine that life might improve will not take steps to improve it. I myself think the future will be -- and must be -- radically different. It will either be far better, or far worse. Things cannot go on as they are. I do not want to sound like of the late 19th Century technophiles who thought all social problems can be cured with a bigger steam engine. Technology might make life more miserable instead of better. A technical fix seldom works without accompanying social changes, legislation, education, and willpower. The best examples of this are the many simple, cheap technologies that might improve life in the Third World, but that languish instead. They were invented years ago, or decades ago. Some, like latrines, were invented centuries ago. But there is little will to implement them in the third world. Poor people are ignorant or helpless, and the rich who who control these countries do not give a fig how many millions suffer and die. A good exmple is the modern mosquito net saturated with insecticide. These are not widely used because families who are forced to live in marginal, swampy areas infested with mosquitoes tend to be the poorest of the poor, and they cannot afford three dollars a year to keep their children from getting malaria. (In a way, it is even more horrible to contemplate the dilemma of the mother who could afford only one net, and could not decide which of her three children she would leave at risk, along with herself and her husband. This is an actual case, similar to the movie "Sophie's Choice.") The cost of implementing these nets to society as a whole would be far less than zero: if they were distributed for free, the savings in reduced medicine, sick leave, starvation and death would far exceed the cost of the nets themselves. The point is, technology alone cannot solve problems without social reform, democracy and economic freedom, even when the technological fix is trivial to implement, and would cost less than nothing. (Another reason these nets are not widely used is closer to home. Conservative organizations in the US oppose them, promoting sprayed insecticide and demanding the return of DDT instead. Spraying would cost much more per capita -- far more than Third World countries could afford -- and it would ravage the ecosystem, but it would bring in a great deal of profit to US insecticide manufacturers. Conservative publications such as http://reason.com/ claim that mosquito nets are not effective, but every Third World public health expert I have read disagrees.) Incidentally, Bill Gates is in Africa at this moment preparing to combat malaria with enormous sums of money and excellent public health advice. See: N. Kristof, "Fighting the Fevers," New York Times, September 24, 2003. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 26 11:37:03 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA02775; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:30:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:30:49 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Thoughts about the do-not-call list and technology Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 14:52:39 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030926115805.01c0c9e0@pop.mindspring.com> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"IHczv2.0.Eh.PN8T_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51965 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed makes some good points, but I feel that the only real solution to the problems he mentions is when causes are connected to their effects. Right now, a majority of the bad decisions that are being made are rendered by those who never will feel the consequences of them. Government is particularly bad in this respect, consider how future generations are being looted for todays massive deficit spending. In some cases, such connections can be forced by the lowly citizenry, as so. Judge who sided with telemarketers is flooded with calls from angry consumers JULIE E. BISBEE, Associated Press Writer Thursday, September 25, 2003 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- (09-25) 12:45 PDT OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) -- U.S. District Judge Lee R. West's telephone has not stopped ringing since he sided with telemarketers seeking to block a popular national do-not-call list. Egged on by talk show hosts and angry Web sites, people have flooded West's office and home with calls and faxes, apparently trying to show him why they wanted to ban unsolicited sales calls. "They are just calling to tie up our lines," said Rick Wade, operations manager at the district clerk's office. "They just keep calling to harass us, like the telemarketers harass them, I guess." The phones at the federal courthouse were jammed Thursday morning and voicemail boxes were stuffed with messages blasting West's ruling that the Federal Trade Commission lacked authority to create and operate the registry. West's home and office telephone numbers were posted on the Internet, and consumers angry with the ruling were encouraged to call. Calls by The Associated Press to West's home seeking comment were blocked by busy signals. The ruling even made late-night television talk show host Jay Leno's monologue Wednesday night. "The judge says the telemarketers can call you whenever they want," Leno said. "You know what we should do? Let's all call this judge tonight at home during dinner." West did please some businesses with his ruling Tuesday. Telemarketers say the list would devastate their industry and lead to the loss of thousands of jobs. Rick Ratliff, president of U.S. Security, Inc., one of the plaintiffs in a lawsuit challenging the list, said his company laid off half of its 600 employees because of restrictions on telemarketing. "U.S. Security does not sell anything over the phone," he said. "We simply ask for the opportunity to tell someone about the lifesaving benefits of our security and fire systems in a face-to-face meeting." The do-not-call registry appears that it will go forward after all. The House approved legislation Thursday intended to ensure the list goes into effect next week. After less than an hour of debate, which included potshots at West from both parties, House members voted 412-8 to approve the bill. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell@mindspring.com] Sent: Friday, September 26, 2003 2:02 PM To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: OFF TOPIC Thoughts about the do-not-call list and technology There has been a lot of commotion about the federal do-not-call list lately. The most recent objection raised in the courts is that it interferes with commercial free speech but it does not affect the free speech of politicians, fundraisers and some other groups. This strikes me as a valid objection, although tenuous. Anyway, I would like to point out an aspect of this which has been overlooked in the press. Anyone can solve the telemarketer problem for $80, by buying a telephone with a special answering machine that requires callers to dial a secret code. See, for example: "PrivateTime telephone" http://www.command-comm.com/pt1000_brochure.html People who are savvy about high-tech gadgets have known about these things for a long time. (I thought about getting one of these years ago when I got a spate of telemarketing calls, but I decided not to because some of the people who call me are old and would have difficulty remembering the secret code.) The point is, telemarketing calls, Internet spam, unappetizing fast food, ugly houses and other shoddy, annoying technology mainly hurts poor people, and people who are stupid, or ignorant, or who have not had a chance to shop around for a solution. It is a little strange to be worrying about constitutional rights when a simple technological solution could erase the problem overnight. No one would claim that 50 million Americans have no right to buy a telephone answering machine, so it makes little sense to say they have no right to sign up on a list that blocks telemarketers the way an advanced answering machine does. If the PrivateTime telephone could be re-engineered into a gadget that costs five dollars at the grocery store, 50 million people would buy one and the telemarketing problem would go away without intervention from Congress or the courts. Internet spam can be eliminated easily with a few changes to mail protocols, or with a permission-based white list such as the one I am using from EarthLink, or the one at spamarrest.com. These programs are 100 percent effective. They place only a small burden on legitimate correspondents. They sidestep constitutional issues with a technical fix. Looking at the larger picture, and getting somewhat back on topic, I predict that many social problems and political conundrums will, in the distant future, be fixed by technical means. Energy is the biggest political, moral and economic problem of our time. Fossil fuel in particular is the source of most economic power, and most pollultion. It was the deciding factor in World War II, it has triggered two major wars since then, and it is the source of most terrorist funding. It is probably the single greatest threat to the survival of the human race and the planet, if global warming is real, which seems increasingly likely to me. But, of course, if cold fusion or something similar can be commercialized the entire problem would disappear in a few years, along with the largest industry on earth. The problem would not be ameliorated or contained: it would be wiped out, like smallpox. Some conservatives such as the infamous anti-CF John Horgan think that technology and science are petering out, and the future will be much like the present. We can look forward to marginal, incremental improvements only. These people themselves are working night and day to fulfill their own prediction, by squashing academic freedom, killing science, and prevent progress. I suppose they are evil, but I am sure they also sincere. They really are genuinely incapable of imagining the future can be much different from the present. I have spoken with them often, and I think the reason they feel this way is because they resemble primitive tribesmen or children. They live in the timeless instant; only the present means anything to them. They know nothing of the past, and therefore they imagine that the present is an endless continuum in both directions. Things were never any different, and cannot ever change. Of course Horgan knows actual history. He has read history books. But I get a sense he somehow does not connect to it, or he does not believe in it at some subconscious level. He is like an unhappy misfit who has visited with many happy families and loving couples, yet who convinces himself that all marriages are a miserable sham and true love does not exist. Some say it is a gift to live for the present, without a concern for the future or the burden of the past, but I see that as a prison. A sense of timelessness prevented progress for thousands of years. People who cannot imagine that life might improve will not take steps to improve it. I myself think the future will be -- and must be -- radically different. It will either be far better, or far worse. Things cannot go on as they are. I do not want to sound like of the late 19th Century technophiles who thought all social problems can be cured with a bigger steam engine. Technology might make life more miserable instead of better. A technical fix seldom works without accompanying social changes, legislation, education, and willpower. The best examples of this are the many simple, cheap technologies that might improve life in the Third World, but that languish instead. They were invented years ago, or decades ago. Some, like latrines, were invented centuries ago. But there is little will to implement them in the third world. Poor people are ignorant or helpless, and the rich who who control these countries do not give a fig how many millions suffer and die. A good exmple is the modern mosquito net saturated with insecticide. These are not widely used because families who are forced to live in marginal, swampy areas infested with mosquitoes tend to be the poorest of the poor, and they cannot afford three dollars a year to keep their children from getting malaria. (In a way, it is even more horrible to contemplate the dilemma of the mother who could afford only one net, and could not decide which of her three children she would leave at risk, along with herself and her husband. This is an actual case, similar to the movie "Sophie's Choice.") The cost of implementing these nets to society as a whole would be far less than zero: if they were distributed for free, the savings in reduced medicine, sick leave, starvation and death would far exceed the cost of the nets themselves. The point is, technology alone cannot solve problems without social reform, democracy and economic freedom, even when the technological fix is trivial to implement, and would cost less than nothing. (Another reason these nets are not widely used is closer to home. Conservative organizations in the US oppose them, promoting sprayed insecticide and demanding the return of DDT instead. Spraying would cost much more per capita -- far more than Third World countries could afford -- and it would ravage the ecosystem, but it would bring in a great deal of profit to US insecticide manufacturers. Conservative publications such as http://reason.com/ claim that mosquito nets are not effective, but every Third World public health expert I have read disagrees.) Incidentally, Bill Gates is in Africa at this moment preparing to combat malaria with enormous sums of money and excellent public health advice. See: N. Kristof, "Fighting the Fevers," New York Times, September 24, 2003. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 26 11:52:41 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA22493; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:41:44 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:41:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030926142309.01c2a210@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 14:41:05 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Microsoft monoculture allows virus spread Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"DkFcf2.0.NV5.aX8T_"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51966 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel writes: > You all seem to forget that we had this > "nerdvana" up until the mid 90's. Were > their viruses? Yup. Was there hacking? > U bet! But not as much. > Heterogeneity is great for living > ecosystems, but sucks for manufactured > goods. If we apply this thinking to cars, > we'd have different sized roads, tires, > etc for each state??? Certainly more > secure . . . This is a key point. Microsoft succeeded because standardization is especially important in software. Minor differences between automobiles, such as where the windshield wiper switch is mounted, do not bother drivers much, but even a tiny difference between operating system versions can cause drastic problems. Microsoft did not impose the need for standardization on the world; the need for standardization imposed Microsoft on the world. When IBM was shopping around for operating system for the PC in 1980, they considered using the Data General Nova operating system. It was vastly superior to Microsoft DOS, and much more reliable than the 2003 version of Windows. If IBM had selected it, Bill Gates would be a forgotten figure, and worldwide hundreds of billions of dollars would have been saved with more reliable, smaller, faster, cheaper computers. Unfortunately, once the suboptimal DOS standard was set, it became impossible to change, like the QWERTY keyboard. Stephen Jay Gould wrote an excellent essay about this, "The Panda's Thumb of Technology." I predict that as long as we use keyboards they will be of the QWERTY design, and as long as there are personal computers they will be mired in the 1980 IBM software choice. Fortunately, both keyboards and PCs will probably disappear soon -- I hope within a generation. Keyboards will be replaced with voice input, and PCs will be replaced with something radically better such as massively parallel microcomputers (MPP) with 64,000 processors and no hard disks, which are thousands of times faster than today's machines for most practical purposes. (We may still have keyboards in 20 years but they will seldom be used, like today's floppy disks.) A slightly faster, slightly better computer, such as the Mac, cannot dislodge the PC, but a radically better one with thousands of processors certainly will. Nothing can prevent the development of such machines. They are a straightforward extenuating of today's supercomputers, just as today's PCs are similar to supercomputers 20 or 30 years ago. The MPP manufacturer will be IBM, Hitachi, Intel or HP, and I do not think any of these companies would hand over the operating system development to Bill Gates. They do not like him. They consider him a rival, and they would not give him that kind of opportunity. Frankly, I do not understand why it is taking companies so long to develop the personal MPP. Large scale MPPs have been in use for about 20 years, and most computer technology is miniaturized after about that long. I think the manufacturers are missing a great opportunity, just as so many of them missed the chance to make microcomputers before the 1980s. MPPs have declined in price from millions to about $20,000 on the low end, so it is just a matter of time before they reach consumer prices of less than $10,000. Enthusiasts already have them. See, for example: J. Tompkins, "Flight 737, Now Departing From Your Garage," New York Times, Sept. 25, 2003. This about a fellow who has a gigantic flight simulator in his garage. It consists of the front end of an actual Boeing 737 hooked to five computers and several high resolution screens. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 26 12:13:09 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA00200; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:07:05 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:07:05 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Thoughts about the do-not-call list and technology Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:28:34 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"tYq543.0.v2.Dv8T_"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51967 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Oh yes, if you'd like to play the home version of this game, here's the skinny courtesy of Usenet newsgroups. http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%22Lee+R.+West%22+home+phone&hl=en&lr=&ie= UTF-8&safe=off&selm=379bcf45.0309250355.7d32e60b%40posting.google.com&rnum=6 Chambers Telephone: 405-609-5140 Chambers Facsimile: 405-609-5151 email: west@okwd.uscourts.gov Home Phone: Lee R West - (405) 348-0818 - , Edmond, OK 73003 Give the judge a call, and sell him some viagra or a trip to disneyland in the florida swamps. Apparently the judge is an avid user of these things, and should appreciate the many exciting offers. It's free speech, which is a rare thing now in Amerika if you've ever tried to exercise it on something more meaningful... Strangely, his number is busy. Gotta keep trying. K. -----Original Message----- From: Keith Nagel [mailto:knagel@gis.net] Sent: Friday, September 26, 2003 2:53 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Thoughts about the do-not-call list and technology Jed makes some good points, but I feel that the only real solution to the problems he mentions is when causes are connected to their effects. Right now, a majority of the bad decisions that are being made are rendered by those who never will feel the consequences of them. Government is particularly bad in this respect, consider how future generations are being looted for todays massive deficit spending. In some cases, such connections can be forced by the lowly citizenry, as so. Judge who sided with telemarketers is flooded with calls from angry consumers JULIE E. BISBEE, Associated Press Writer Thursday, September 25, 2003 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- (09-25) 12:45 PDT OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) -- U.S. District Judge Lee R. West's telephone has not stopped ringing since he sided with telemarketers seeking to block a popular national do-not-call list. Egged on by talk show hosts and angry Web sites, people have flooded West's office and home with calls and faxes, apparently trying to show him why they wanted to ban unsolicited sales calls. "They are just calling to tie up our lines," said Rick Wade, operations manager at the district clerk's office. "They just keep calling to harass us, like the telemarketers harass them, I guess." The phones at the federal courthouse were jammed Thursday morning and voicemail boxes were stuffed with messages blasting West's ruling that the Federal Trade Commission lacked authority to create and operate the registry. West's home and office telephone numbers were posted on the Internet, and consumers angry with the ruling were encouraged to call. Calls by The Associated Press to West's home seeking comment were blocked by busy signals. The ruling even made late-night television talk show host Jay Leno's monologue Wednesday night. "The judge says the telemarketers can call you whenever they want," Leno said. "You know what we should do? Let's all call this judge tonight at home during dinner." West did please some businesses with his ruling Tuesday. Telemarketers say the list would devastate their industry and lead to the loss of thousands of jobs. Rick Ratliff, president of U.S. Security, Inc., one of the plaintiffs in a lawsuit challenging the list, said his company laid off half of its 600 employees because of restrictions on telemarketing. "U.S. Security does not sell anything over the phone," he said. "We simply ask for the opportunity to tell someone about the lifesaving benefits of our security and fire systems in a face-to-face meeting." The do-not-call registry appears that it will go forward after all. The House approved legislation Thursday intended to ensure the list goes into effect next week. After less than an hour of debate, which included potshots at West from both parties, House members voted 412-8 to approve the bill. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell@mindspring.com] Sent: Friday, September 26, 2003 2:02 PM To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: OFF TOPIC Thoughts about the do-not-call list and technology There has been a lot of commotion about the federal do-not-call list lately. The most recent objection raised in the courts is that it interferes with commercial free speech but it does not affect the free speech of politicians, fundraisers and some other groups. This strikes me as a valid objection, although tenuous. Anyway, I would like to point out an aspect of this which has been overlooked in the press. Anyone can solve the telemarketer problem for $80, by buying a telephone with a special answering machine that requires callers to dial a secret code. See, for example: "PrivateTime telephone" http://www.command-comm.com/pt1000_brochure.html People who are savvy about high-tech gadgets have known about these things for a long time. (I thought about getting one of these years ago when I got a spate of telemarketing calls, but I decided not to because some of the people who call me are old and would have difficulty remembering the secret code.) The point is, telemarketing calls, Internet spam, unappetizing fast food, ugly houses and other shoddy, annoying technology mainly hurts poor people, and people who are stupid, or ignorant, or who have not had a chance to shop around for a solution. It is a little strange to be worrying about constitutional rights when a simple technological solution could erase the problem overnight. No one would claim that 50 million Americans have no right to buy a telephone answering machine, so it makes little sense to say they have no right to sign up on a list that blocks telemarketers the way an advanced answering machine does. If the PrivateTime telephone could be re-engineered into a gadget that costs five dollars at the grocery store, 50 million people would buy one and the telemarketing problem would go away without intervention from Congress or the courts. Internet spam can be eliminated easily with a few changes to mail protocols, or with a permission-based white list such as the one I am using from EarthLink, or the one at spamarrest.com. These programs are 100 percent effective. They place only a small burden on legitimate correspondents. They sidestep constitutional issues with a technical fix. Looking at the larger picture, and getting somewhat back on topic, I predict that many social problems and political conundrums will, in the distant future, be fixed by technical means. Energy is the biggest political, moral and economic problem of our time. Fossil fuel in particular is the source of most economic power, and most pollultion. It was the deciding factor in World War II, it has triggered two major wars since then, and it is the source of most terrorist funding. It is probably the single greatest threat to the survival of the human race and the planet, if global warming is real, which seems increasingly likely to me. But, of course, if cold fusion or something similar can be commercialized the entire problem would disappear in a few years, along with the largest industry on earth. The problem would not be ameliorated or contained: it would be wiped out, like smallpox. Some conservatives such as the infamous anti-CF John Horgan think that technology and science are petering out, and the future will be much like the present. We can look forward to marginal, incremental improvements only. These people themselves are working night and day to fulfill their own prediction, by squashing academic freedom, killing science, and prevent progress. I suppose they are evil, but I am sure they also sincere. They really are genuinely incapable of imagining the future can be much different from the present. I have spoken with them often, and I think the reason they feel this way is because they resemble primitive tribesmen or children. They live in the timeless instant; only the present means anything to them. They know nothing of the past, and therefore they imagine that the present is an endless continuum in both directions. Things were never any different, and cannot ever change. Of course Horgan knows actual history. He has read history books. But I get a sense he somehow does not connect to it, or he does not believe in it at some subconscious level. He is like an unhappy misfit who has visited with many happy families and loving couples, yet who convinces himself that all marriages are a miserable sham and true love does not exist. Some say it is a gift to live for the present, without a concern for the future or the burden of the past, but I see that as a prison. A sense of timelessness prevented progress for thousands of years. People who cannot imagine that life might improve will not take steps to improve it. I myself think the future will be -- and must be -- radically different. It will either be far better, or far worse. Things cannot go on as they are. I do not want to sound like of the late 19th Century technophiles who thought all social problems can be cured with a bigger steam engine. Technology might make life more miserable instead of better. A technical fix seldom works without accompanying social changes, legislation, education, and willpower. The best examples of this are the many simple, cheap technologies that might improve life in the Third World, but that languish instead. They were invented years ago, or decades ago. Some, like latrines, were invented centuries ago. But there is little will to implement them in the third world. Poor people are ignorant or helpless, and the rich who who control these countries do not give a fig how many millions suffer and die. A good exmple is the modern mosquito net saturated with insecticide. These are not widely used because families who are forced to live in marginal, swampy areas infested with mosquitoes tend to be the poorest of the poor, and they cannot afford three dollars a year to keep their children from getting malaria. (In a way, it is even more horrible to contemplate the dilemma of the mother who could afford only one net, and could not decide which of her three children she would leave at risk, along with herself and her husband. This is an actual case, similar to the movie "Sophie's Choice.") The cost of implementing these nets to society as a whole would be far less than zero: if they were distributed for free, the savings in reduced medicine, sick leave, starvation and death would far exceed the cost of the nets themselves. The point is, technology alone cannot solve problems without social reform, democracy and economic freedom, even when the technological fix is trivial to implement, and would cost less than nothing. (Another reason these nets are not widely used is closer to home. Conservative organizations in the US oppose them, promoting sprayed insecticide and demanding the return of DDT instead. Spraying would cost much more per capita -- far more than Third World countries could afford -- and it would ravage the ecosystem, but it would bring in a great deal of profit to US insecticide manufacturers. Conservative publications such as http://reason.com/ claim that mosquito nets are not effective, but every Third World public health expert I have read disagrees.) Incidentally, Bill Gates is in Africa at this moment preparing to combat malaria with enormous sums of money and excellent public health advice. See: N. Kristof, "Fighting the Fevers," New York Times, September 24, 2003. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 26 12:17:35 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA10397; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:12:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:12:50 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030926144428.00ba9cf8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 14:51:23 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Microsoft monoculture allows virus spread Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"PZl9X.0.DY2.m-8T_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51968 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: "[MPPs] are a straightforward extenuating of today's supercomputers . . ." I meant EXTENSION. You see that voice input is not quite ready for general use yet. I am always at the cutting edge . . . and I have the scars to prove it. When I bought a television recently, Mike Carrell warned me that the latest super deluxe HDTV models can be temperamental and expensive to operate. But I cannot resist such things, so I bought one. On Monday while I was watching it, it suddenly expired with a loud bang, followed by rattling noise as if revolving object inside it is shaking loose with each turn. Fortunately, following Mike's advice, I got a three-year extended warranty. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 26 12:59:35 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA11133; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:55:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:55:15 -0700 Message-ID: <3F749981.7060301@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:54:41 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Thoughts about the do-not-call list and technology References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030926115805.01c0c9e0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030926115805.01c0c9e0@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"RiX9-2.0.oj2.Yc9T_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51969 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Anyone can solve the telemarketer problem for $80, Or for free if you have an answering machine. Simply record the three tone siren on the first message at this site: http://www.alleged.com/telephone/Payphone-Directory-Mirror/sounds.html on your machine before your message. The automated dialing system will automatically delete your number from their database and hang up. (Unless they have disabled this feature on their dialer.) Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 26 13:04:08 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA13996; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:59:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:59:04 -0700 Message-ID: <3F7498CF.FAA95AE2@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:51:43 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: WHAT'S NEW Friday, 26 Sep 03] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"H5d7v3.0.bQ3.6g9T_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51970 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, 26 Sep 03 Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 13:37:53 -0400 From: "What's New" Reply-To: opa@aps.org To: "What's New" WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 26 Sep 03 Washington, DC 1. MAGNETIC THERAPY: HAVE WE GOT NEWS FOR YOU! IT DOESN'T WORK. A study in the Journal of the American Medical Association last week, "Effect of Magnetic vs Sham-Magnetic Insoles on Plantar Heel Pain," reports that a randomized, double-blind, placebo controlled trial of 101 adults diagnosed with plantar heel pain found no significant difference in outcome between use of active vs sham magnets. It was carried out by capable physicians from the prestigious Mayo Clinic. They even got the right answer. So what's the problem? The problem is the huge cost to society of disproving claims for which there was no evidence to begin with. Next we will learn that the Fish and Wildlife Service is funding a study of New York sewers to look for alligators. 2. WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION: MORE NEWS! THEY DIDN'T FIND ANY. The Iraq Survey Group of about 1,400 American and British weapons experts and support personnel has been searching for four months. Let's assume they work 40 hour weeks, that comes to just about one million man hours. So far, the search did turn up one Iraqi security officer who said he had worked on such a program, but apparently that hot tip led to nothing. They're still looking. 3. CONGRESS KILLS TIA: MAYBE POINDEXTER CAN JOIN THE IRAQ SURVEY. The 2004 defense appropriation bill that Congress sent to the President yesterday prohibits R&D on the infamous Terrorism Information Awareness Program, the surveillance program hatched in the Pentagon by Adm. John Poindexter (WN 15 Aug 03). A critic of TIA, Ron Wyden (D-OR) is quoted by the Washington Post saying the bill means "Americans on American soil are not going to be targets of TIA surveillance that would violate their privacy and civil liberties." Poindexter resigned in August (WN 15 Aug 03). 4. PATRIOT ACT: ACLU FILES THE FIRST LEGAL CHALLENGE TO THE ACT. "Hysterical" librarians (WN 19 Sep 03) are applauding the action of the American Civil Liberties Union on behalf of six Arab and Muslim community groups who believe they have been targeted under the Act. Meanwhile, ACLU posters warn library patrons that federal agents may be secretly viewing their records. According to American Libraries magazine, over 150 libraries from around the United States have signed up to receive the posters. 5. POLITICAL CLIMATE: ARCTIC WARMING BREAKS ICE SHELF IN TWO. The largest ice shelf in the Northern Hemisphere has broken in two, further evidence of warming in arctic reaches. Could this latest sign of warming have been prevented if all nations had adhered to the Kyoto Accord? No. It is more likely a result of very long-term world climate patterns, researchers say. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY. Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the University or the American Physical Society, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN You are currently subscribed to whatsnew as: To unsubscribe, send a blank e-mail to: To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 26 13:10:56 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA20542; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 13:06:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 13:06:14 -0700 Message-ID: <3F749C19.3060201@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 16:05:45 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Thoughts about the do-not-call list and technology References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030926115805.01c0c9e0@pop.mindspring.com> <3F749981.7060301@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: <3F749981.7060301@rtpatlanta.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"E8RgB2.0.j05.rm9T_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51971 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > Jed Rothwell wrote: > >> Anyone can solve the telemarketer problem for $80, > > > > Or for free if you have an answering machine. Simply record the three > tone siren on the first message at this site: > > http://www.alleged.com/telephone/Payphone-Directory-Mirror/sounds.html > > on your machine before your message. The automated dialing system > will automatically delete your number from their database and hang > up. (Unless they have disabled this feature on their dialer.) Or, this one, which is much cleaner.: http://www.flash.net/~carlton2/telemark.htm From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 26 13:56:20 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA24283; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 13:51:34 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 13:51:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F74A6AB.3050003@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 16:50:51 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Segway Recall Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"lSzgV.0.Lx5.IRAT_"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51972 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Seems they fall over when the batteries weaken: >http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=716&e=5&u=/ap/20030926/ap_on_re_us/segway_recall< From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 26 14:44:12 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA29358; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 14:39:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 14:39:44 -0700 Message-ID: <20030926211248.1764.qmail@web11702.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 14:12:48 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: Segway Recall To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <3F74A6AB.3050003@rtpatlanta.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"nXot73.0.T97.N8BT_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51973 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Terry Blanton wrote: > Seems they fall over when the batteries weaken: > > > >http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=716&e=5&u=/ap/20030926/ap_on_re_us/segway_recall< > you mean, when the batteries about to die, they dont work right?? NOOOO! what electronic device works like that? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 26 18:11:16 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA14481; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 18:08:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 18:08:32 -0700 Message-ID: <003c01c38493$c18d2ea0$9141ccd1@asus> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030926144428.00ba9cf8@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Microsoft monoculture allows virus spread Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 21:07:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"KJi931.0.1Y3.FCET_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51974 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed wrote: When I bought a television recently, Mike Carrell warned me that > the latest super deluxe HDTV models can be temperamental and expensive to > operate. But I cannot resist such things, so I bought one. On Monday while > I was watching it, it suddenly expired with a loud bang, followed by > rattling noise as if revolving object inside it is shaking loose with each > turn. Fortunately, following Mike's advice, I got a three-year extended > warranty. The only HDTV I can think of that would have such a failure mode would be one using the Texas Instruments DLP technology, which in principle has a lot going for it. The light modulator is an array of micromirrors generated by silicon lithography that can reflect light from a lamp onto the screen, or tilt and dump that pixel's worth of light into a sink. Intensity of each pixel is controlled by the off-on duty cycle. Very elegant technology. Colors are obtain by an old method, a wheel of filters spinning in the light path. Once upon a year, CBS got this method approved by the FCC for commercial color television. A filter wheel spun in front of a *small* CRT, or a belt raced around the exterior of the set. RCA in a bet-your-company tour de force trumped this with the compatible color TV system used worldwide today. It is interesting that the small size of the DLP modulator makes the color wheel technology possible once more. Using multiple DLP modulators and optical beam splitting could also do the job and make more efficient use of the light, but at higher cost. What probably happened in Jed's case was that the filter wheel came loose. Hard to understand. I don't know if the set uses a blower to cool the HID lamps used. If there were such and the blower failed, the lamp would soon follow. In either case, such a failure in an expensive bit of gear is inexcusable. When I cautioned him, I had in mind pixel failures in gas or LCD displays. My RCA HDTVs, using big picture tubes, have been perking along for several years now. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 26 20:09:28 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA06605; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 20:07:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 20:07:00 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <3c.3559e819.2ca658ac@aol.com> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 23:06:20 EDT Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Microsoft monoculture allows virus spread To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_3c.3559e819.2ca658ac_boundary" X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10709 Resent-Message-ID: <"s1g2V1.0.6d1.JxFT_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51975 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_3c.3559e819.2ca658ac_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/26/2003 9:12:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, mikec@snip.net writes: > When I bought a television recently, Mike Carrell warned me that > > the latest super deluxe HDTV models can be temperamental and expensive to > > operate. But I cannot resist such things, so I bought one. On Monday while > > I was watching it, it suddenly expired with a loud bang, followed by > > rattling noise as if revolving object inside it is shaking loose with each > > turn. Fortunately, following Mike's advice, I got a three-year extended > > warranty. > I went on a job interview at a local television station WJAC. They constructed a giant tower on a mountain top for digital transmission. It is much higher than the old tower. The digital signal is on now. I was told that the FCC plans to phase out analog TV in two years. I still see many analog TV's for sale in the stores. Can this be? I don't know much about digital TV. I'm told its UHF. UHF never propagated well. I'm told that digital TV is a low power transmission. Will this in power cable companies to hike rates. My rate is $50/month. I don't even watch the most expensive sports channels. I'm waiting for a satellite company to put up a free commercial driven service with about 20 channels. I would like to say good by to the cable CO. Frank Z --part1_3c.3559e819.2ca658ac_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 9/26/2003 9:12:04 PM Eastern Standa= rd Time, mikec@snip.net writes:


When I bought a television rece= ntly, Mike Carrell warned me that
> the latest super deluxe HDTV models can be temperamental and expensive=20= to
> operate. But I cannot resist such things, so I bought one. On Monday wh= ile
> I was watching it, it suddenly expired with a loud bang, followed by > rattling noise as if revolving object inside it is shaking loose with e= ach
> turn. Fortunately, following Mike's advice, I got a three-year extended=
> warranty.


I went on a job interview at a local television station WJAC.  They con= structed a giant tower on a mountain top for digital transmission.  It=20= is much higher than the old tower.  The digital signal is on now. = I was told that the FCC plans to phase out analog TV in two years.  I=20= still see many analog TV's for sale in the stores. Can this be?  =20= I don't know much about digital TV.  I'm told its UHF.  UHF never=20= propagated well.  I'm told that digital TV is a low power transmission.=   Will this in power cable companies to hike rates.  My rate is $5= 0/month.  I don't even watch the most expensive sports channels. =20= I'm waiting for a satellite company to put up a free commercial driven servi= ce with about 20 channels.  I would like to say good by to the cable CO= .

Frank Z --part1_3c.3559e819.2ca658ac_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 27 07:20:40 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA29151; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 07:17:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 07:17:23 -0700 Message-ID: <3F759CB4.8010103@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 10:20:36 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: More on thermal depolymerization Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"8eeDs.0.P77.olPT_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51976 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.christiansciencemonitor.com/2003/0925/p13s02-sten.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 27 07:24:35 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA32418; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 07:21:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 07:21:56 -0700 Message-ID: <3F7597F1.5080301@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 10:00:17 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Microsoft monoculture allows virus spread References: <3c.3559e819.2ca658ac@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"AZG8Z1.0.Ow7.3qPT_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51977 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com wrote: > I was told that the FCC plans to phase out analog TV in two years. That was the original plan. It is now 2007. But you can expect more slippage since the FCC just settled on the standard: http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&edition=us&q=hdtv+standard From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 27 10:18:03 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA18175; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 10:15:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 10:15:08 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030927125354.01bfe200@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 13:04:53 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: More on thermal depolymerization Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"H2KsR3.0.mR4.RMST_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51978 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This process is better than most biowaste to energy programs, and much better than the ethanol program. In the past I have noted here that the total number of calories in the food we consume is much less than the calories burned by our machinery. In fact, Pimentel & Pimental show that all the annual biomass production in North America, in both wilderness and farms, would not suffice to meet our energy needs, so a biowaste program can only supply a tiny fraction of our energy. A program that edible corn into fuel is economic insanity, and grossly immoral in my opinion. The ethanol program actually consumes more oil and other fossil fuel than it produces, while destroying millions of acres of land and aquifers. It is a gift to OPEC. However, the process described in this article not only creates fuel from materials that have no value as food, it also reduces pollution and solid waste. I do not think it can supply more than a small fraction of our energy but the low cost and advantages of reducing waste make it worthwhile anyway. You can compare this to a program to improve lighting efficiency. Obviously that can never replace all of our power production, but it can replace the equivalent of two or three average US nuclear power plants, at a much lower cost than building or maintaining three power plants. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 27 10:18:23 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA18305; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 10:15:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 10:15:16 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030927130518.01c01140@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 13:15:03 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Microsoft monoculture allows virus spread Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"ANoZA.0.oT4.YMST_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51979 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell writes: > > I was watching it, it suddenly expired with a loud bang, followed by > > rattling noise as if revolving object inside it is shaking loose with each > > turn. Fortunately, following Mike's advice, I got a three-year extended > > warranty. > > The only HDTV I can think of that would have such a failure mode would be > one using the Texas Instruments DLP technology, which in principle has a lot > going for it. The light modulator is an array of micromirrors generated by > silicon lithography that can reflect light from a lamp onto the screen, or > tilt and dump that pixel's worth of light into a sink. Intensity of each > pixel is controlled by the off-on duty cycle. Very elegant technology. It turns out the bang was a high intensity bulb failing, and the spinning sound is the fan making a peculiar noise. Perhaps it does not come up to speed when the rest of the hardware does not report in for duty. It shuts down automatically after a few minutes. The TV is still not fixed after the tech guy spent an hour on the phone with the factory. Apparently they do not have any more bulbs in North America. This is what happens when you buy cutting-edge toys. It is annoying, but it is half the fun too. You get to fool around with products that almost but do not quite work. Anyway, at least I do not have the front end of a Boeing 737 in my garage hooked up to 6 computers and four HDTV displays. I would LOVE to have one, I admit. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 27 11:03:19 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA21213; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 10:59:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 10:59:08 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030927131543.00ba9c78@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 13:22:15 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Segway Recall Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"mLzvq.0.6B5.g_ST_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51980 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: alexander hollins > --- Terry Blanton wrote: > > Seems they fall over when the batteries weaken: > > > > you mean, when the batteries about to die, they dont > work right?? > > > NOOOO! > > what electronic device works like that? Seriously, I presume the machine is supposed to detect a low battery condition and shut down gracefully, without dumping the rider into the street. This should not be hard to fix. My electric bicycle has a remarkably accurate battery power sensor that warns the rider before the motor poops out. However, now that the battery is old it sometimes fails when the indicator light still shows 20 percent charge. It has gone nearly 2000 miles and I think the limit is 3000 miles. A loss of power does not matter with a bicycle, because it does not throw the rider when the motor fails. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 27 13:41:37 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA03249; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 13:38:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 13:38:52 -0700 Message-ID: <3F75F644.5030203@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 16:42:44 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: More on thermal depolymerization References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030927125354.01bfe200@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"J9Ucl.0.Xo.QLVT_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51981 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > However, the process described in this article not only creates fuel > from materials that have no value as food, it also reduces pollution > and solid waste. I do not think it can supply more than a small > fraction of our energy but the low cost and advantages of reducing > waste make it worthwhile anyway It works on just about any hydrocarbon, including all that North Carolina pig crap. I'll pay 50 cents per gallon more on any fuel that is promised to reduce our imports. Can they add just such a pump at the gas stations? Oy vey! What a marketing tool! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 27 13:48:35 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA27310; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 13:45:50 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 13:45:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F75F7D7.6050206@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 16:49:27 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Microsoft monoculture allows virus spread References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030927130518.01c01140@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"qkFjD1.0.Wg6.vRVT_"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51982 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > The TV is still not fixed after the tech guy spent an hour on the > phone with the factory. Apparently they do not have any more bulbs in > North America. This is what happens when you buy cutting-edge toys. It > is annoying, but it is half the fun too. You get to fool around with > products that almost but do not quite work. Could you share what brand? Hitachi? I am quite pleased with my 1 yr old, 51 in. diag. Panasonic 4:3 ratio, HDTV capable(480i) unit ($1,299). (Chosen because most source material is 4:3 today -- it will be my bedroom TV later) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 27 14:39:58 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA05774; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 14:31:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 14:31:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F75F88C.50504@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 16:52:28 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Segway Recall References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030927131543.00ba9c78@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"E8kix2.0.8Q1.y6WT_"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51983 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Seriously, I presume the machine is supposed to detect a low battery > condition and shut down gracefully, without dumping the rider into the > street. This should not be hard to fix. Yup! That's the recall fix. It's already incorporated in all new shipments of $4,995 Segways. I'm a bit disappointed in Mr. Kamen. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 27 15:38:48 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA28354; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 15:34:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 15:34:11 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030927165348.00b035e8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 17:22:45 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: More on thermal depolymerization Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"3w7Y22.0.ew6.W1XT_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51984 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton writes: > It works on just about any hydrocarbon, including all that North > Carolina pig crap. That's great, because we have to do something with the pig manure anyway, and I suppose this process must detoxify it considerably, by reducing the energy content. (It must make inert leftovers, in other words.) However, if Pimentel & Pimental are right, there cannot be enough naturally occurring, present supply hydrocarbons in North America to fulfill our needs. All the manure and garbage in the country would not be enough. It would make no sense to tap the stored up hydrocarbons such as coal for this process. I guess the plastic trash input would come out of the stored up fossil fuel account, rather than present production. P&P, p. 21, shows: All Plants potential energy equals around ~55% of annual fossil fuel. Crops and forest equal ~20% of annual fossil fuel. Let us say 10% of the fossil fuel is captured by food crops per year, and 10% by forest products. Most forest products are converted to paper, which can be burned, or houses and other permanent structures, which cannot. Anyway, a very rough estimate is that ~10% of the fossil fuel ends up in a stream of present production disposable hydrocarbons. But of course we cannot tap all of that energy, or we and our farm animals would starve to death. We ship a lot of the crops overseas. Of the portion that remain in the U.S., we feed 90% to farm animals, mainly for meat production (not milk or wool), and 10% we eat directly. As I pointed out here earlier, most of the potential energy in a crop such as wheat is concentrated in the seed. The pigs or people eat it, and metabolize it. There is not much potential energy in the straw, or the manure left after digestion. Evolution has made pigs and people into efficient energy gatherers. So it isn't as if the waste products from agriculture are sitting around holding 10% of the potential energy of fossil fuel every year. I do not know how efficient metabolism is, and I am not sure how much is shipped overseas, but I suspect there would not be more 2% equivalent of fossil fuel left. Perhaps one-fourth of the crop potential energy (about 2%), plus another 2% from paper, and plastics and other stored fossil sources. That would still be a very substantial share of U.S. energy production, in the same league as hydroelectricity. (Regarding the 90% of U.S. grain production that is fed to animals, Arthur Clarke and I often point out we thus condemn about 2 billion people to slow starvation worldwide. These people could eat the grain that we feed animals, which is enough for 10 times the U.S. population; ~2 or 3 billion people. I should point out that Clarke and I both eat meat, so we are shameless hypocrites. Our only excuse, a weak one at that, is that we are rooting for plans to phase out agriculture and replace it with synthetic food production.) - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 27 15:50:36 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA07970; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 15:45:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 15:45:57 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030927172622.00ba8e98@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 17:56:36 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Wow! Mallove interview of Cecil Baumgartner Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"lbh_5.0.Qy1.aCXT_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51985 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gene Mallove's interview with Cecil Baumgartner in I.E. #51, p. 31 is one of the most amazing stories I have read in I.E., and the most disturbing by far. It describes the infamous explosion of the Papp machine during a demonstration attended by Feynman and others. This killed one person and seriously injured another. If I understand correctly, on p. 46 Baumgartner asserts that Papp deliberately blew up the machine, committing involuntary manslaughter, and he also says Feynman had a larger role in the tragedy than he admitted. Here is my understanding of the sequence of events. I am assuming here that the Papp machine really did work. I may have some details wrong, but: 1. Before the demo, Papp threatened to blow up the machine if anyone expressed doubts about it. From the descriptions of Papp I have the impression he was seriously paranoid and delusional, and it is plausible he would make such threats. 2. The machine output was controlled with a variac. However, this was not strictly needed. Papp disconnected the machine from the variac to prove that the variac was not supplying motive power, and the machine continued to run, although more roughly, as if it was not well regulated. It is difficult for me to understand why a person would make a machine that can be externally regulated or not. Why not build the whole control system into the machine? Anyway . . . 3. Acting without permission, Feynman unplugged the AC power line to the variac, while yelling its a fraud.In other words, he thought the motive power came from the variac. Apparently he did not see when Papp earlier disconnected the variac from the machine, which would rule out his hypothesis. (Or at least, it would require a large hidden battery or capacitor, and it would mean he could prove nothing by unplugging the line.) Feynman had no comment about the fact that the machine continued to run after he unplugged the variac. He could not have missed seeing this. 4. Papp was terribly upset at Feynman. Apparently, he turned up the variac setting to a high level that he knew would destroy the machine, then he went to the electric outlet where Feynman was standing and plugged in the variac AC wire again. This immediately caused an explosion. Quoting p. 46: Cecil Baumgartner (CB): Along about the time they were injured, I inquired of Joe [Papp] if he had turned up the power on the variac before they plugged the thing back in. He says, Youll never be able to prove it.Now what does that tell you? Gene Mallove (GM): Does it tell you something about his intent? CB: It tells you he turned the damn thing up so that he could make sure that it exploded. GM: You think so? CB: I certainly do. That was my opinion and it's been my opinion. I've never voiced this because he was fearful that he would be imprisoned for manslaughter . . . Comments from me: 1. This account hangs together. Feynman, in his version of the story, said the machine exploded the moment the power to the variac was restored. I have always thought it could not have been a coincidence that the explosion occurred at that moment. Feynman concluded it was some kind of conventional chemical explosive sabotage, presumably triggered by the variac input. This makes no sense, because there had been power going in from the variac previously. Why should it trigger an explosion after the unplanned disconnect was reconnected? 2. If this is true, and the machine really did produce energy, and Papp knew it would explode after he plugged in the variac, then of course he DID commit manslaughter! He should have been imprisoned, perhaps in a insane asylum. Furthermore, Baumgartner committed a very serious crime by concealing Papp's statement from the police. As far as I know, he is still liable, since there is no statute of limitations for manslaughter, although I suppose the police can do nothing now that the suspect is dead. Still, I am rather surprised Baumgartner admitted this, and I am even more surprised, and appalled, that he did nothing at the time. If I had been him, and I seriously believed that homicidal maniac who would deliberately explode a machine in these circumstances was running around free, I would have called the police the moment I hung up on Papp. The problem is, in order to prosecute Papp the DA and the court would have to recognize that the machine exploded because the variac was turned up, and the only way that could be true, as far as I can tell, would be if the energy really was anomalous. You cannot make a large, heavy duty machine powered by electricity explode merely by increasing electric input power. At most you will burn up a capacitor or some other component. I suppose it would be possible to trigger hidden chemical explosives with some kind of device that detects the input power and activates above some level. In other words, when the variac goes high enough, it signal another device to trigger the explosives. However, evidence of hidden explosives were never found. If they had been, the DA would have pressed charges even without knowledge of Baumgartner's statement. I still do not know whether I believe the Papp story or not. I simply cannot bring myself to try to judge the story based on these weird, fragmentary, impressionistic accounts, and anecdotal evidence. Yes, it does seem likely to be true, and the story fits together more logically assuming it is true. On the other hand, I have often heard highly convincing stories that fit together wonderfully well. They have told by authoritative people, backed by loads of both hard evidence and anecdotal evidence. Yet these stories have turned out to be totally false totally baseless. For example, last year the U.S. Secretary of State gave a long lecture to the U.N. that most people, including me, thought proved beyond any reasonable doubt that Iraq had tons of weapons of mass destruction. Large truckloads full. But, as we have seen by now, this was completely wrong. No one could hide such massive amounts. Not a single Iraqi scientist or engineer has come forward. Such secrets could not be hidden so thoroughly, when vital secrets such as the location of the dictator's sons have been revealed. To give another germane example, since 1989, many authorities at the APS and elsewhere have been giving the public an authoritative sounding, apparently complete and logical account of cold fusion: The findings were never replicated, there must have been a mistake, not a single laboratory ever saw any sign of anomalous effects, etc., etc. This is utterly false, but it does seem to hang together.It sounds plausible. Researchers have often made incorrect claims that were not replicated. Based on these and countless other examples, I think the only standard of truth that we can rely on is the published, replicated experiment, reported according to the usual standards of scientific research. (I.e., not anonymously, or in fragmentary reports.) Papp has not yet met this standard, so I do not believe it yet. That does not mean I dismiss Papp the way a pathological skeptic would. I just do not know yet, and I never will know unless the standards are met. The "published, replicated experiment" standard is not perfect. Nothing devised by humans is. It is better than strange anecdotal evidence, impressions, hearsay and stories told years after the event. On the other hand, such weird evidenceis not so utterly useless that we should dismiss it. It is disturbing, fascinating, but not compelling. It is not 100% compelling because you can never be sure that you or the Secretary Of State have not been bamboozled. It is harder to bamboozle or mislead with a detailed academic research paper, and the kind of information that is presented in a properly written paper. For example, a retired expert in centrifuges from Los Alamos was shown the CIA's evidence that aluminum tubes in Iraq were meant for a uranium centrifuge. I heard him interviewed on the radio. He looked at photos and metallurgy, and instantly dismissed that hypothesis. He could tell at a glance the tubes could not be used for a centrifuge. He rattled off several technical reasons regarding the type of metal, the finish, the shape, thickness, length and so on. He said it would be impossible, and he challenged anyone with knowledge of the physics to prove otherwise. In other words, it wasn't an iffy, close question. It was obvious -- open and shut. That's how definitive science can be, when it is done properly. That is why science is far better than things like military intelligence, or stories told by an engineer years after the fact. (A footnote: We do need military intelligence, and the experts in it do the best they can. You can't expect it to be as good as hard science. You do not usually have the luxury of applying hard science techniques when military intelligence is called for. Your enemy does not usually hand over sample tubes for analysis before the war. In this case, however, the Iraqis did hand over the tubes, and they claimed these tubes were for anti-aircraft missiles that they had been given explicit permission to manufacture. That turned out to be the case. Apparently the CIA did not confer with the retired Los Alamos centrifuge expert until after the war, long after the President and the Sec. Of State made their statements. Or perhaps the exert testimony was suppressed.) Getting back to Papp, the Papp story is an example of something often noted by people in this forum. For some inexplicable and tragic reason, it seems that anomalous energy discoveries are often made by lunatics. The lunatics then spend the rest of their lives doing everything within their power to discredit the discovery, hide the discovery, and ensure that no one will believe it, or follow up on it. If a sane, imaginative, and clever person were to sit down and devise a plan to keep anyone from believing Papp, or Stanley Meyer, or Correa, he could not come up with a more effective strategy than the ones they themselves have employed. Everything they say and do seems calculated to destroy their own prospects, and make people hate and fear them. Papp went to extremes to avoid success when he accidentally committed manslaughter. Some people in this issue of I.E. doubt that Papp actually discovered the effect he is credited with. He might have stolen it. Here is strange conspiracy theory hypothesis. I do not for one minute believe this, but here it is. Cue up the music from the X-files; here goes: Perhaps nefarious people from Big Energy companies search out promising anomalous energy discoveries and deliberately place them into the hands of egomaniacal lunatics in order to discredit these discoveries and quash them. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 27 17:47:08 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA25868; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 17:43:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 17:43:19 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [64.70.24.54] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Papp Patents Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 17:42:43 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Sep 2003 00:42:43.0417 (UTC) FILETIME=[6D9E2490:01C38559] Resent-Message-ID: <"AXYdA1.0.pJ6.bwYT_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51986 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Papp was issued three U.S. Patents. The first was for an explosive compound, prior to his engine patents. If memory seerves, it had a remote family resemblence to the two, later, engine patents. He thought it would find mining and military applications, etc. He was indeed a strange character. His entire story would be a fascinating subject for a science minded biographer. It would seem to have possible movie or tv drama potential. If I remember correctly, his first engine conversion was a Volvo 4 cylinder. The story appeared in an aviation magazine. Mark >From: Jed Rothwell >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >To: vortex-L@eskimo.com >Subject: Wow! Mallove interview of Cecil Baumgartner >Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 17:56:36 -0400 > >Gene Mallove's interview with Cecil Baumgartner in I.E. #51, p. 31 is one >of the most amazing stories I have read in I.E., and the most disturbing by >far. It describes the infamous explosion of the Papp machine during a >demonstration attended by Feynman and others. This killed one person and >seriously injured another. If I understand correctly, on p. 46 Baumgartner >asserts that Papp deliberately blew up the machine, committing involuntary >manslaughter, and he also says Feynman had a larger role in the tragedy >than he admitted. > >Here is my understanding of the sequence of events. I am assuming here that >the Papp machine really did work. I may have some details wrong, but: > >1. Before the demo, Papp threatened to blow up the machine if anyone >expressed doubts about it. From the descriptions of Papp I have the >impression he was seriously paranoid and delusional, and it is plausible he >would make such threats. > >2. The machine output was controlled with a variac. However, this was not >strictly needed. Papp disconnected the machine from the variac to prove >that the variac was not supplying motive power, and the machine continued >to run, although more roughly, as if it was not well regulated. It is >difficult for me to understand why a person would make a machine that can >be externally regulated or not. Why not build the whole control system into >the machine? Anyway . . . > >3. Acting without permission, Feynman unplugged the AC power line to the >variac, while yelling its a fraud.In other words, he thought the motive >power came from the variac. Apparently he did not see when Papp earlier >disconnected the variac from the machine, which would rule out his >hypothesis. (Or at least, it would require a large hidden battery or >capacitor, and it would mean he could prove nothing by unplugging the >line.) Feynman had no comment about the fact that the machine continued to >run after he unplugged the variac. He could not have missed seeing this. > >4. Papp was terribly upset at Feynman. Apparently, he turned up the variac >setting to a high level that he knew would destroy the machine, then he >went to the electric outlet where Feynman was standing and plugged in the >variac AC wire again. This immediately caused an explosion. > > >Quoting p. 46: > >Cecil Baumgartner (CB): Along about the time they were injured, I inquired >of Joe [Papp] if he had turned up the power on the variac before they >plugged the thing back in. He says, Youll never be able to prove it.Now >what does that tell you? > >Gene Mallove (GM): Does it tell you something about his intent? > >CB: It tells you he turned the damn thing up so that he could make sure >that it exploded. > >GM: You think so? > >CB: I certainly do. That was my opinion and it's been my opinion. I've >never voiced this because he was fearful that he would be imprisoned for >manslaughter . . . > > >Comments from me: > >1. This account hangs together. Feynman, in his version of the story, said >the machine exploded the moment the power to the variac was restored. I >have always thought it could not have been a coincidence that the explosion >occurred at that moment. Feynman concluded it was some kind of conventional >chemical explosive sabotage, presumably triggered by the variac input. This >makes no sense, because there had been power going in from the variac >previously. Why should it trigger an explosion after the unplanned >disconnect was reconnected? > >2. If this is true, and the machine really did produce energy, and Papp >knew it would explode after he plugged in the variac, then of course he DID >commit manslaughter! He should have been imprisoned, perhaps in a insane >asylum. Furthermore, Baumgartner committed a very serious crime by >concealing Papp's statement from the police. As far as I know, he is still >liable, since there is no statute of limitations for manslaughter, although >I suppose the police can do nothing now that the suspect is dead. Still, I >am rather surprised Baumgartner admitted this, and I am even more >surprised, and appalled, that he did nothing at the time. If I had been >him, and I seriously believed that homicidal maniac who would deliberately >explode a machine in these circumstances was running around free, I would >have called the police the moment I hung up on Papp. The problem is, in >order to prosecute Papp the DA and the court would have to recognize that >the machine exploded because the variac was turned up, and the only way >that could be true, as far as I can tell, would be if the energy really was >anomalous. You cannot make a large, heavy duty machine powered by >electricity explode merely by increasing electric input power. At most you >will burn up a capacitor or some other component. > >I suppose it would be possible to trigger hidden chemical explosives with >some kind of device that detects the input power and activates above some >level. In other words, when the variac goes high enough, it signal another >device to trigger the explosives. However, evidence of hidden explosives >were never found. If they had been, the DA would have pressed charges even >without knowledge of Baumgartner's statement. > >I still do not know whether I believe the Papp story or not. I simply >cannot bring myself to try to judge the story based on these weird, >fragmentary, impressionistic accounts, and anecdotal evidence. Yes, it does >seem likely to be true, and the story fits together more logically assuming >it is true. On the other hand, I have often heard highly convincing stories >that fit together wonderfully well. They have told by authoritative people, >backed by loads of both hard evidence and anecdotal evidence. Yet these >stories have turned out to be totally false totally baseless. For example, >last year the U.S. Secretary of State gave a long lecture to the U.N. that >most people, including me, thought proved beyond any reasonable doubt that >Iraq had tons of weapons of mass destruction. Large truckloads full. But, >as we have seen by now, this was completely wrong. No one could hide such >massive amounts. Not a single Iraqi scientist or engineer has come forward. >Such secrets could not be hidden so thoroughly, when vital secrets such as >the location of the dictator's sons have been revealed. > >To give another germane example, since 1989, many authorities at the APS >and elsewhere have been giving the public an authoritative sounding, >apparently complete and logical account of cold fusion: The findings were >never replicated, there must have been a mistake, not a single laboratory >ever saw any sign of anomalous effects, etc., etc. This is utterly false, >but it does seem to hang together.It sounds plausible. Researchers have >often made incorrect claims that were not replicated. Based on these and >countless other examples, I think the only standard of truth that we can >rely on is the published, replicated experiment, reported according to the >usual standards of scientific research. (I.e., not anonymously, or in >fragmentary reports.) Papp has not yet met this standard, so I do not >believe it yet. > >That does not mean I dismiss Papp the way a pathological skeptic would. I >just do not know yet, and I never will know unless the standards are met. > >The "published, replicated experiment" standard is not perfect. Nothing >devised by humans is. It is better than strange anecdotal evidence, >impressions, hearsay and stories told years after the event. On the other >hand, such weird evidenceis not so utterly useless that we should dismiss >it. It is disturbing, fascinating, but not compelling. It is not 100% >compelling because you can never be sure that you or the Secretary Of State >have not been bamboozled. It is harder to bamboozle or mislead with a >detailed academic research paper, and the kind of information that is >presented in a properly written paper. For example, a retired expert in >centrifuges from Los Alamos was shown the CIA's evidence that aluminum >tubes in Iraq were meant for a uranium centrifuge. I heard him interviewed >on the radio. He looked at photos and metallurgy, and instantly dismissed >that hypothesis. He could tell at a glance the tubes could not be used for >a centrifuge. He rattled off several technical reasons regarding the type >of metal, the finish, the shape, thickness, length and so on. He said it >would be impossible, and he challenged anyone with knowledge of the physics >to prove otherwise. In other words, it wasn't an iffy, close question. It >was obvious -- open and shut. That's how definitive science can be, when it >is done properly. That is why science is far better than things like >military intelligence, or stories told by an engineer years after the fact. > >(A footnote: We do need military intelligence, and the experts in it do the >best they can. You can't expect it to be as good as hard science. You do >not usually have the luxury of applying hard science techniques when >military intelligence is called for. Your enemy does not usually hand over >sample tubes for analysis before the war. In this case, however, the Iraqis >did hand over the tubes, and they claimed these tubes were for >anti-aircraft missiles that they had been given explicit permission to >manufacture. That turned out to be the case. Apparently the CIA did not >confer with the retired Los Alamos centrifuge expert until after the war, >long after the President and the Sec. Of State made their statements. Or >perhaps the exert testimony was suppressed.) > >Getting back to Papp, the Papp story is an example of something often noted >by people in this forum. For some inexplicable and tragic reason, it seems >that anomalous energy discoveries are often made by lunatics. The lunatics >then spend the rest of their lives doing everything within their power to >discredit the discovery, hide the discovery, and ensure that no one will >believe it, or follow up on it. If a sane, imaginative, and clever person >were to sit down and devise a plan to keep anyone from believing Papp, or >Stanley Meyer, or Correa, he could not come up with a more effective >strategy than the ones they themselves have employed. Everything they say >and do seems calculated to destroy their own prospects, and make people >hate and fear them. Papp went to extremes to avoid success when he >accidentally committed manslaughter. > >Some people in this issue of I.E. doubt that Papp actually discovered the >effect he is credited with. He might have stolen it. Here is strange >conspiracy theory hypothesis. I do not for one minute believe this, but >here it is. Cue up the music from the X-files; here goes: > >Perhaps nefarious people from Big Energy companies search out promising >anomalous energy discoveries and deliberately place them into the hands of >egomaniacal lunatics in order to discredit these discoveries and quash >them. > >- Jed > > _________________________________________________________________ Frustrated with dial-up? Get high-speed for as low as $29.95/month (depending on the local service providers in your area). https://broadband.msn.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 27 20:22:21 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA12628; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 20:18:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 20:18:59 -0700 Message-ID: <004601c3856f$29725a50$e656ccd1@asus> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <3c.3559e819.2ca658ac@aol.com> Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Microsoft monoculture allows virus spread Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 23:17:32 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0036_01C3854D.87550D60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"Oa4hA1.0.653.ZCbT_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51987 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C3854D.87550D60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Frank wrote:=20 =20 I went on a job interview at a local television station WJAC. They = constructed a giant tower on a mountain top for digital transmission. = It is much higher than the old tower. The digital signal is on now. I = was told that the FCC plans to phase out analog TV in two years. I = still see many analog TV's for sale in the stores. Can this be? I = don't know much about digital TV. I'm told its UHF. UHF never = propagated well. I'm told that digital TV is a low power transmission. = Will this in power cable companies to hike rates. My rate is $50/month. = I don't even watch the most expensive sports channels. I'm waiting for = a satellite company to put up a free commercial driven service with = about 20 channels. I would like to say good by to the cable CO. Extensive studies by the FCC and industry indicate that a digital UHF = TV station will get essentially the same coverage as a VHF station. In = the hilly country around Pittsburgh, getting a high tower on a high hill = will help coverage in the UHF range where all DTV will be. The UHF = channels will be auctioned off to other services. The FCC is mandating = the changes. Set top converters boxes are available for 'reasonable' = prices.=20 I have seen a demonstration by an antenna expert that the digital TV = signal from Philadelphia's WHYY could be received by a tuned stub of an = antenna inside a steel framed building from the local antenna farm on a = high hill some ten miles away. This same guy, who lived in the = Philadelphia suburbs, claimed he could get a good DTV signal from New = York, some 90 miles away. The guy knew what he was doing.=20 The experience with DTV is that you get a superb signal or nothing; no = noisy, washed out fringe pictures.=20 I doubt very much that a 20 channel commercial satellite TV service = will come into existence in the foreseeable future. I happen to have = Compacts analog cable, Direct TV satellite service, and off-air TV from = the Philadelphia antenna farm, which is essentially line-of-sight from = my house. The Direct TV 'free' programs are essentially the same as = cable, with commercials. The non-commercial channels are premium = packages. There is also pay-per-view. I pay for this stuff to get HDTV, = which is excellent on my 38" and 36" RCA CRT HDTV receivers.=20 Mike Carrell Frank Z ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C3854D.87550D60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Frank wrote:

 


I went on a job interview at a local television station=20 WJAC.  They constructed a giant tower on a mountain top for = digital=20 transmission.  It is much higher than the old tower.  The = digital=20 signal is on now.  I was told that the FCC plans to phase out = analog TV=20 in two years.  I still see many analog TV's for sale in the = stores. Can=20 this be?   I don't know much about digital TV.  I'm = told its=20 UHF.  UHF never propagated well.  I'm told that digital TV = is a low=20 power transmission.  Will this in power cable companies to hike=20 rates.  My rate is $50/month.  I don't even watch the most = expensive=20 sports channels.  I'm waiting for a satellite company to put up a = free=20 commercial driven service with about 20 channels.  I would like = to say=20 good by to the cable CO.
 
Extensive studies by the FCC and industry = indicate that a=20 digital UHF TV station will get essentially the same coverage as a VHF = station. In the hilly country around Pittsburgh, getting a high tower = on a=20 high hill will help coverage in the UHF range where all DTV will be. = The UHF=20 channels will be auctioned off to other services. The FCC is = mandating=20 the changes. Set top converters boxes are available for 'reasonable' = prices.=20
 
I have seen a = demonstration by an=20 antenna expert that the digital TV signal from Philadelphia's WHYY = could be=20 received by a tuned stub of an antenna inside a steel framed building = from the=20 local antenna farm on a high hill some ten miles away. This same guy, = who=20 lived in the Philadelphia suburbs, claimed he could get a good DTV = signal from=20 New York, some 90 miles away. The guy knew what he was doing. =
 
The experience with = DTV is that you=20 get a superb signal or nothing; no noisy, washed out fringe pictures.=20
 
I doubt very much = that a 20 channel=20 commercial satellite TV service will come into existence in the = foreseeable=20 future. I happen to have Compacts analog cable, Direct TV satellite = service,=20 and off-air TV from the Philadelphia antenna farm, which is = essentially=20 line-of-sight from my house. The Direct TV 'free' programs are = essentially the=20 same as cable, with commercials. The non-commercial channels are = premium=20 packages. There is also pay-per-view. I pay for this stuff to get = HDTV, which=20 is excellent on my 38"  and 36" RCA CRT HDTV receivers. =
 
Mike = Carrell
 


Frank Z
------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C3854D.87550D60-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 28 11:46:02 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA05561; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 11:42:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 11:42:39 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030928130408.00b03730@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 13:12:46 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: LENR-CANR.org traffic remains high Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"h6zMl1.0.LM1.UkoT_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51988 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Total downloads this week were 12,680, one less than the record week of May 24, 2003 (12,681). I uploaded new graphs, including the graph of the square root of downloads and the projection that Ed Storms worked out months ago. The trend has followed the projection to an uncanny extent. See: http://lenr-canr.org/Features.htm#Visitors The grand total is 237,508 as of September 27, 2003. Last week, 2.1 GB were downloaded. Since September 1, 8.2 GB have been downloaded. I may need expand to the $35 per month service to avoid bandwidth charges above 10 GB. See: http://www.earthlink.net/biz/hosting/packages/ - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 28 14:00:44 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA03598; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 13:58:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 13:58:33 -0700 Message-ID: <3F774C65.2090909@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 17:02:29 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: LENR-CANR.org traffic remains high References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030928130408.00b03730@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"6RWKO.0.1u.vjqT_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51989 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Total downloads this week were 12,680, one less than the record week > of May 24, 2003 (12,681). You made the Daily Grail on Friday (260903). 17th bullet down: http://www.dailygrail.com/ :-) Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 28 19:24:11 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA17300; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 19:19:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 19:19:59 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.20030929031930.0068a118@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 03:19:30 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Fw: Super abundant vacancies Resent-Message-ID: <"dzUP61.0._D4.DRvT_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51990 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:34 pm 25-09-03 EDT, Frank Znidarsic wrote in the NASA Goofed thread: > I've been thinking about this and have a paper at the International Journal of >Physics. Its been there 50 days. It did not get the usual immediate reject. > I hope it goes through. I hope I can shed some light on this subject. ref > >http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chaptera.html > >Frank Znidarsic Reading the recommended chapter I was struck by the following final paragraph of the conclusion. ====================================================== In this chapter it was explained that a minimum in capacitance represents a maximum in stiffness. The decrease in the stiffness of space within a superconductor "downshifts the frequencies" of matter. Long range low frequency vibrations allow low level nuclear reactions to occur. ... These effects are especially strong in a vibrationally reinforced Bose condensate (next chapter). ====================================================== I believe that Znidarsic and I are talking about the same thing. The low pressure (high pF) Beta-aether in the cavitation holes within a triaxially stressed metal will obviously be less stiff than the Beta-aether external to the metal. The difference between Znidarsic and I is that he is visualising the decrease in stiffness as a decrease in the stiffness of "space", presumably space as a whole [forgive the pun ;-) ], whereas I see it as only involving the Beta-aether fraction of space. By analogy, a decrease in the stiffness of the atmosphere to produce an Alpha atmospheric partial vacuum only involves the air fraction of space. To move towards a demonstration of cold fusion which will be coercive rather than merely conclusive - a demonstration which will convince people who confuse silicone with silicon and pronounce nuclear as nucular - I believe it is necessary to make a cold fusion bomb. In other words to produce a specimen in which the deuterium condensation in the cavitrons take place all at the same time. I was seven at the outbreak of World War II and suffered the London Blitz. Although walking past bombed houses on my way to school made some impression, and hearing that my classmate, Chisholm's leg was found hanging in a tree when a bomb dropped opposite the school made me realise that it might have been me, I rapidly became inured to the danger. Every time a bomb, doodlebug or V2 dropped nearby I thought "Yarboo - missed me!" The one thing that really punctured my feeling of personal invulnerability was picking up an Evening Standard at the very end of the war and reading about the Hiroshima bomb. I realised as I looked at the picture of the incredible devastation that next time, Hitler wouldn't miss. How does one achieve fusion simultaneously throughout a specimen? Uniformity, uniformity, uniformity. Every cavitron has to be equipped with MS XP, so that when fusion takes place in one cavity it take place in all, there being no time for the collapse of one cavity to progressively relax the others. The use of a specimen formed from a partial sinter of minuscule metal droplets would seem a good starting point since a uniform network of channels will allow the deuterium to be spread evenly throughout. The difficult part will be to get the cavities within the droplets to open up uniformly. Gold plating the droplets will help by providing a ductile impermeable skin to keep the coarser fractions of the Beta-aether from destroying the Beta-aether vacua in the cavitrons by penetration through surface cracks. The hardest task will be achieving a uniform distribution of the cavitation initiators which allow the with-crystal cavities to grow in the first place. Once all the ducks are in line one even has the choice of not blowing up the lab and using calorimetry instead. I seem to remember from my schooldays there is something called a bomb calorimeter. Frank Grimer There is a very interesting picture on the front of Mizuno's book showing the effect of cavitron fusion just under the surface of a specimen. The heat generated melts the roof of the cave and mini vortices of Beta-aether swirl in. In the process they picks up the molten detritus and leave a still photo of their action in the form of metal debris frozen into that spectacular cluster of Beta-aether mini-tornados shown in the following URL. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1892925001/ ref=lib_dp_TFCV/002-0419014-3841601?v=glance&s=books&vi= reader#reader-link From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 29 05:08:23 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA02928; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 05:06:09 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 05:06:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F764FFF.6060503@cox.net> Disposition-Notification-To: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 20:05:35 -0700 From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." Organization: ISUS User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: DLP moving mirror TV's References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030926144428.00ba9cf8@pop.mindspring.com> <003c01c38493$c18d2ea0$9141ccd1@asus> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ztuSs1.0.ej.l02U_"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51991 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A My company recently purchased a Mitsubishi DLP projector-- it was awsome--super bright even in daylight. They told me that the light bulb cost $800. so I did some research. I found them for ~$500 on Internet. I'd never heard of these Philips UHP lamps before. That stands for Ultra High Pressure. They are 200Watt 1mm mercury arc lamps where the pressure is 3000 psi! I wonder what would happen if there was some deuterium inside. I also looked into the DLP (TI moving mirror technology). The mirrors are substantially larger than the wavelength of red light, but this brought up a question: Modern semiconductor photolithography used to use platinum on glass photomasks to expose the silicon, where the mask is exact pattern to be imaged on the silicon wafer. Now, because the feature size is 35nm or so, as I recall, they use phase masks which are calculated holograms because the features are substantially less than the light wavelength, even with the short wavelength ultraviolet exposures they use. Question: If the micro-mirrors were made substantially smaller than the wavelength of blue light, would it be feasible to calculate a pattern for the mirrors so it could still project a viable image? Mike Carrell wrote: >The only HDTV I can think of that would have such a failure mode would be >one using the Texas Instruments DLP technology, which in principle has a lot >going for it. The light modulator is an array of micromirrors generated by >silicon lithography that can reflect light from a lamp onto the screen, or >tilt and dump that pixel's worth of light into a sink. Intensity of each >pixel is controlled by the off-on duty cycle. Very elegant technology. > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 29 05:27:02 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id FAA04672; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 05:24:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 05:24:56 -0700 Message-ID: <3F765018.9010409@cox.net> Disposition-Notification-To: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 20:06:00 -0700 From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." Organization: ISUS User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: DLP moving mirror TV's References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030926144428.00ba9cf8@pop.mindspring.com> <003c01c38493$c18d2ea0$9141ccd1@asus> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"kwFxU1.0.m81.LI2U_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51992 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: My company recently purchased a Mitsubishi DLP projector-- it was awsome--super bright even in daylight. They told me that the light bulb cost $800. so I did some research. I found them for ~$500 on Internet. I'd never heard of these Philips UHP lamps before. That stands for Ultra High Pressure. They are 200Watt 1mm mercury arc lamps where the pressure is 3000 psi! I wonder what would happen if there was some deuterium inside. I also looked into the DLP (TI moving mirror technology). The mirrors are substantially larger than the wavelength of red light, but this brought up a question: Modern semiconductor photolithography used to use platinum on glass photomasks to expose the silicon, where the mask is exact pattern to be imaged on the silicon wafer. Now, because the feature size is 35nm or so, as I recall, they use phase masks which are calculated holograms because the features are substantially less than the light wavelength, even with the short wavelength ultraviolet exposures they use. Question: If the micro-mirrors were made substantially smaller than the wavelength of blue light, would it be feasible to calculate a pattern for the mirrors so it could still project a viable image? Hoyt Stearns Scottsdale, Arizona Mike Carrell wrote: >The only HDTV I can think of that would have such a failure mode would be >one using the Texas Instruments DLP technology, which in principle has a lot >going for it. The light modulator is an array of micromirrors generated by >silicon lithography that can reflect light from a lamp onto the screen, or >tilt and dump that pixel's worth of light into a sink. Intensity of each >pixel is controlled by the off-on duty cycle. Very elegant technology. > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 29 07:02:46 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA25434; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 06:59:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 06:59:30 -0700 Message-ID: <410-220039129135925328@mindspring.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: jedrothwell@mindspring.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.0.129.0 (Windows) From: "Jed Rothwell" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Microsoft monoculture allows virus spread Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 09:59:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c588daaa4ec336b4e04ab4390726e5bcabd6355a4fd6b880e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: <"K7shr2.0.7D6.0h3U_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51993 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton writes: > Could you share what brand? Hitachi? I am quite pleased with my 1 yr > old, 51 in. diag. Panasonic . . . A Panasonic PT-40LC12. It works okay. It looks good, but the control software is a little flaky, and they still don't have the part. It is 14 months old. When the tech guy called, I asked him, "are you going to bring spare parts?" He said, "we do not carry spare parts for such new models." I thought he meant they do not carry them on the truck. It turns out they do not have them in the Western Hemisphere. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 29 08:25:05 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA22793; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 08:20:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 08:20:55 -0700 Message-ID: <20030929152047.97049.qmail@web11701.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 08:20:47 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: Segway Recall To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030927131543.00ba9c78@pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"rmTsa2.0.lZ5.Lt4U_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51994 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: the segway DOES have a light and a beep warning of a low bat, and for those that read the manual, it SAYS you shouldnt run it after the light and beep. i dont see where it should have to totally shut itself down, but the new software being installed will do just that, due to a large number of morons ignoring the light and beep, and getting dumped on their ass after continuing to ride it. please, this is in line, if not scale, with teh chainsaw that warns you not to stop the chain with your hands or genitals. --- Jed Rothwell wrote: > alexander hollins > > > --- Terry Blanton > wrote: > > > Seems they fall over when the batteries weaken: > > > > > > > you mean, when the batteries about to die, they > dont > > work right?? > > > > > > NOOOO! > > > > what electronic device works like that? > > Seriously, I presume the machine is supposed to > detect a low battery > condition and shut down gracefully, without dumping > the rider into the > street. This should not be hard to fix. > > My electric bicycle has a remarkably accurate > battery power sensor that > warns the rider before the motor poops out. However, > now that the battery > is old it sometimes fails when the indicator light > still shows 20 percent > charge. It has gone nearly 2000 miles and I think > the limit is 3000 miles. > A loss of power does not matter with a bicycle, > because it does not throw > the rider when the motor fails. > > - Jed > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 29 09:52:28 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA02072; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 09:45:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 09:45:05 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030929113215.01cac358@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 12:01:46 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Fleischmann addresses an important question about history Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"FYbvl.0.BW.G66U_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51995 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The ICCF-10 paper by Steve Jones will describe neutron detection with titanium deuteride. Fourteen years after the initial discovery of cold fusion, Jones has finally produced definitive evidence that deuterides sometimes produce anomalous neutrons. Since 1989, several people have detected neutrons in cold fusion, but the neutrons have usually been weak or sporadic. One of the most convincing previous experiments was performed by Mizuno a few years ago. He produced neutrons in nearly every test by moving a palladium cathode from heavy water to light water and raising the voltage. Jones' present work is probably the most convincing yet because his detector is extremely reliable. Still, compared to excess heat, neutrons, charged particles and other nuclear evidence remains marginal and difficult to detect. If CF researchers had not looked for excess heat, the field would probably never have begun in the first place. Very few people in the world were working with deuterides in the 1980s. Mizuno was one of them. He saw sporadic, puzzling evidence of anomalous charged particles, but he dismissed this as noise. Paneth and Peters in the 1920s looked for helium in palladium hydrides. At first, they thought they had found it, and perhaps they did. But the results were so close to the margin they eventually decided this was ordinary helium that had been trapped in the glass. Consider Iwamura's transmutation experiments. They are definitive and completely reproducible, but the Mitsubishi apparatus costs millions of dollars and took years to perfect. No one would have built it in the first place had not Fleischmann and Pons first discovered cold fusion using far simpler, faster and cheaper techniques. As Fleischmann has said all along, the principal signature of the reaction is heat. If it had not been for heat, I do not think anyone would have looked for neutrons, helium, transmutations or any other evidence. Even if people had looked, I doubt they would have found anything, because these other effects are more difficult to detect than heat, and most early CF experiments were suboptimal and barely produced any effect. This raises a fascinating question. Why did F&P look for heat in the first place? In 1980, a researcher wondering whether a deuteride might produce nuclear fusion would look for neutrons, not heat. He would assume the fusion reaction would produce neutrons and helium in the same proportions as plasma fusion does. (More-or-less the same proportions, anyway, although there was evidence that the branching ratios might not apply to extreme conditions.) The logical thing to do would be to look for neutrons. There is really no point to looking for heat. By the time you reach a measurable level of heat, the neutron flux should be so high it would be impossible to miss. Indeed, it would be fatal with an unshielded cell, as every nuclear scientist realized the moment he read the announcement of the F&P results in 1989. This is the so-called "did graduate student problem." It explains why so many nuclear scientists concentrated on neutron detection in 1989. Perhaps it explains why some researchers even today refuse to believe the excess heat is real. In private conversation, Jones can hardly bring himself to admit it is real, and he said nothing about heat during his lecture. Right from the start, F&P ignored conventional wisdom and concentrated on calorimetry instead of neutron detection. If history could be re-run, is there any way people might have uncovered CF by finding other evidence first, instead of heat? Jones has not publicly acknowledged the heat is real, and he has not set up a calorimeter to look for it. Suppose F&P had never done their experiments. Would Jones (or someone else) have persevered for 14 years, found the neutrons, and revealed to the world that CF is real after all? It is impossible to say, but this scenario seems unlikely. Jones must have been aware all along that others were seeing heat, transmutations and neutrons. Surely that spurred him to continue. Heat has kept the field alive even for him, even though he has not tried to look for it. I think this is one of the most important history of science questions in cold fusion. The decision to look for heat was an essential turning point. It was the genesis of the field. I do not think that Mizuno or anyone else would have successfully followed up on the transient, borderline indications of charged particles. I doubt that Jones' "mother earth stew" approach could ever have produced results convincing enough to inspire additional efforts. As I said, Mitsubishi would not have spent millions of dollars looking for evidence that Cs converts to Cs in a deuteride. I do not think any scientist on earth would have imagined or predicted that result in 1980, and it is inconceivable that a mainstream company would have paid millions to look for it. I called Fleischmann and asked him what inspired him to look for heat in the first place. In the earliest experiments, why did he concentrate on calorimetry instead of setting up a neutron detector? What made him think that the neutron channel might be suppressed? Was this intuition, a lucky guess, or was it based upon the theory? Here is a summary of his response. He assumed from the start that if cold fusion does exist, it would be nothing like plasma fusion. Based on some complicated theories, he never thought neutrons would be commensurate with the helium, or that cold fusion will be anything like plasma fusion on other ways. The theory is complicated and he cannot explain it briefly. In fact he was just thinking about writing a paper on the subject when I called (a remarkable coincidence). He also cited old experimental evidence as well, particularly "Bridgman's cold explosions in the 1930s." (I am not familiar with this work. If anyone knows about it, I would appreciate hearing from you.) He said, "we never thought it would work in the first place, and we certainly never thought it would be anything like plasma fusion." This is not to say they were unmindful of the dangers of neutrons. They took precautions in case the cells turned out to produce neutrons. They installed the experiment in an unused, locked room away from other rooms. The cell was installed inside a large water tank with more than enough water to thermalize neutrons from a conventional D-D reaction. (That is to say, stop them, producing tritium. Water is used as a shield in the conventional particle beam experiments I have seen at Hokkaido University and elsewhere.) - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 29 09:56:13 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA25886; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 09:50:06 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 09:50:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030929124415.01caa4f8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 12:48:40 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Segway Recall Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"AgZQU1.0.LK6.xA6U_"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51996 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: alexander hollins writes: > the segway DOES have a light and a beep warning of a > low bat, and for those that read the manual, it SAYS > you shouldnt run it after the light and beep. i dont > see where it should have to totally shut itself down . . . Real world experience says it should have to that. No doubt a jury in a liability suit would agree. > but the new software being installed will do just > that, due to a large number of morons ignoring the > light and beep, and getting dumped on their ass after > continuing to ride it. Whether people or morons or not you should not dump them on their ass if you can help it. In business, you should always do what is best for the customer, and do what he wants unless you think it might hurt him. You do not go around judging him. Based on my experience riding the electric bicycle, I do not think the people who ignore the light and the beep are morons. I have often failed to notice the low battery warning on the bicycle, and I have been surprised when the power cuts off. A person riding an open vehicle in traffic is not prepared to pay close attention to LED warning lights and low volume audible signals. Bright sunlight and traffic noise would make that difficult, distracting and dangerous. I have firsthand experience with that too. Last January while riding in the dark I was looking over my shoulder and wondering whether I should adjust the derailleur when I hit a patch of sand and nearly broke my wrist. I will grant that is a very stupid thing to do, but the point is, it illustrates why the rider must pay attention to the road and not the vehicle. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 29 10:10:44 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA22249; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 10:04:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 10:04:36 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030929100243.00aaf538@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 10:06:34 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Subject: Re: Fleischmann addresses an important question about history In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030929113215.01cac358@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_235853593==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <"M1oqh.0.TR5.ZO6U_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51997 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_235853593==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Jed: I commend you for your excellent question to Fleischmann and thank you for your insightful commentary. I see your point and agree with you that the quest to investigate the heat was the catalyst for the field as we now know it. Steve Krivit Editor and Webmaster Los Angeles, California, USA www.coldfusioninfo.com Phone: (310) 721-5919 Fax: (310) 470-8190 --=====================_235853593==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Jed:

I commend you for your excellent question to Fleischmann and thank you for your insightful commentary.
I see your point and agree with you that the quest to investigate the heat was the catalyst for the field as we now know it.



Steve Krivit
Editor and Webmaster
Los Angeles, California, USA
www.coldfusioninfo.com
Phone: (310) 721-5919
Fax: (310) 470-8190 --=====================_235853593==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 29 10:31:16 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA07690; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 10:24:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 10:24:58 -0700 Message-ID: <154e01c386ae$6e3849c0$af01a8c0@colinqamd1200> Reply-To: "Colin Quinney" From: "Colin Quinney" To: Subject: Electronic paper Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 13:23:42 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at fep01-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com from [65.49.180.21] using ID at Mon, 29 Sep 2003 13:23:08 -0400 Resent-Message-ID: <"zr48Z1.0._t1.fh6U_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51998 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.nature.com/nsu/030922/030922-10.html Electronic paper reaches video speed Colour movies might soon be playing on single sheets. 25 September 2003 PHILIP BALL One display device could hold an entire library. © Philips Electronics Paper capable of playing videos has been invented at the Philips Research laboratory in Eindhoven, the Netherlands1. A single sheet looks pretty much like ordinary paper. But the ink can be rearranged electronically fast enough to show video movies. Its devisers, Robert Hayes and Johan Feenstra, have also figured out how to create full-colour displays. Their colour screens would be four times brighter than the flat devices currently made from liquid crystals, they reckon. The invention is the latest version of 'electronic ink'. Researchers hope to combine the convenience, robustness and readability of printed material with the vast and flexible information content of laptop computers. In principle, a plastic sheet covered with electronic ink could display an entire library, page by page. The information would be stored in a portable chip, and the display would be powered by a slimline, lightweight battery. Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix would weigh no more than a feather. Switch in time High-resolution monochrome electronic paper is already on the verge of commercialization, produced by Massachusetts-based company, E-Ink, in collaboration with Philips. Here the 'ink' consists of countless tiny, transparent capsules of black and white powdered pigments, which are drawn by electric fields to the front face. This system is fine for viewing successive pages of a book, but its switching time is too slow for moving pictures. Hayes and Feenstra switch the colour of their e-ink in a completely different way. Each pixel of the new display contains a drop of coloured, oily ink that spreads over a reflective white background. The white backing is coated first with a transparent material that conducts electricity - permitting electrical control of the pixel colour - and then with a transparent film of a water-repellent plastic. Left to its own devices, the ink droplet spreads across the entire pixel. If a voltage is applied, it retracts like a bead of water in a Teflon pan, exposing the white area below. If the pixel is small enough, these white and inky regions are not visible, just an average brightness. When the droplet is fully spread, the pixel looks dark. When it retracts, the pixel looks much lighter. Full-colour displays can be made with three sub-pixels of yellow, cyan and magenta. © Hayes & Feenstra The larger the applied voltage, the more the ink retracts. The ink is therefore capable of a continuous grey scale, not just of a two-tone contrast. So monochrome images can look very smooth. The key to the system's success is its switching voltage. It is low enough that controlling the electronic ink requires only a small power source. Switching between dark and bright states takes only about ten milliseconds - fast enough to produce sharp video images. In principle full-colour images might be produced this way, Hayes and Feenstra show. Pixels can be composed of three sub-pixels inked with the standard yellow-cyan-magenta tricolour system. References Hayes, R. A. & Feenstra, B. J. Video-speed electronic paper based on electrowetting. Nature, 425, 383 - 385, doi:10.1038/nature01988 (2003). |Article| © Nature News Service / Macmillan Magazines Ltd 2003 . Slim screen can be rolled but not folded 8 May 2003 . Shoes and sheets get wired 5 December 2002 . TV on a T-shirt 22 May 2002 . GM fish made quickly 29 September 2003 . Dog genome unveiled 26 September 2003 . First cloned rats born 26 September 2003 . Vaccine coverage estimates over-optimistic 26 September 2003 . Dust might drop 26 September 2003 . Switchable net woven from DNA 26 September 2003 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 29 10:33:36 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA11232; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 10:29:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 10:29:01 -0700 Message-ID: <3F786BC6.8050606@pobox.com> Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 13:28:38 -0400 From: Stephen Lawrence User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030827 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fleischmann addresses an important question about history References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030929113215.01cac358@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030929113215.01cac358@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"P9TQt1.0.8l2.Rl6U_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51999 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > This raises a fascinating question. Why did F&P look for heat in the > first place? Here's another answer, a little different from the one Jed got. I heard it in a lecture at MIT on cold fusion. The lecturer said this is the answer he got when he asked Fleischman the same question. As I recall it, he said he was told by Fleischman that it was "common knowledge" at the time among electrochemists that calibrating a calorimeter for an electrolysis run using light water was straightforward, and could be done to very high precision (a number of 99% sticks in my mind). BUT, Fleischman told him, calibration using heavy water never worked well -- the results would commonly wander around by a few percent. A precision of perhaps 95% was the best one could do. And from there it was a short logical leap to think maybe something was injecting some anomalous heat into the apparatus, and it might be worth looking for it. Take this for whatever it's worth. The lecturer went on to say that he'd asked other electrochemists about this D vs H effect and they'd never heard of it, but, he said, maybe it really was "common knowledge" among some he hadn't asked. This was at a seminar perhaps six months ago. If anyone cares I'll try to dig up the name of the prof. I don't recall it off the top of my head. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 29 10:50:48 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA27892; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 10:45:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 10:45:45 -0700 Message-ID: <20030929174523.20870.qmail@web11701.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 10:45:23 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: Segway Recall To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030929124415.01caa4f8@pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"0hnum.0.bp6.7_6U_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52000 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: of course, the segway runs at what, 5-7 mph? and since it only keeps you from falling while its on and moving, what the software patch amounts to is the vehicle giving a dead stop anyways.... just a little earlier. i fail to see how this is a help.. --- Jed Rothwell wrote: > alexander hollins writes: > > > the segway DOES have a light and a beep warning > of a > > low bat, and for those that read the manual, it > SAYS > > you shouldnt run it after the light and beep. i > dont > > see where it should have to totally shut itself > down . . . > > Real world experience says it should have to that. > No doubt a jury in a > liability suit would agree. > > > > but the new software being installed will do just > > that, due to a large number of morons ignoring > the > > light and beep, and getting dumped on their ass > after > > continuing to ride it. > > Whether people or morons or not you should not dump > them on their ass if > you can help it. In business, you should always do > what is best for the > customer, and do what he wants unless you think it > might hurt him. You do > not go around judging him. > > Based on my experience riding the electric bicycle, > I do not think the > people who ignore the light and the beep are morons. > I have often failed to > notice the low battery warning on the bicycle, and I > have been surprised > when the power cuts off. A person riding an open > vehicle in traffic is not > prepared to pay close attention to LED warning > lights and low volume > audible signals. Bright sunlight and traffic noise > would make that > difficult, distracting and dangerous. I have > firsthand experience with that > too. Last January while riding in the dark I was > looking over my shoulder > and wondering whether I should adjust the derailleur > when I hit a patch of > sand and nearly broke my wrist. I will grant that is > a very stupid thing to > do, but the point is, it illustrates why the rider > must pay attention to > the road and not the vehicle. > > - Jed > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 29 10:52:35 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA29150; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 10:46:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 10:46:51 -0700 Message-ID: <410-22003912917014393@mindspring.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: jedrothwell@mindspring.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.0.129.0 (Windows) From: "Jed Rothwell" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Meant "dead graduate problem" Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 13:00:14 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c588daaa4ec336b4ee849a50e0ef283d323d377298b03de2a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: <"jAlrG1.0.L77.A07U_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52001 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I said: This is the so-called "did graduate student problem. . ." and voice input made that: "did graduate student problem . . ." Regarding the water tank shield used in F&P's early experiments, I do not know whether they continued to use it after they detected heat. I should ask him. The point is, they took precautions, even though they did not think there would be neutrons. They did not expect heat, for that matter. Fleischmann made it clear that, "we thought the experiment would fail, and we would see nothing." It was a long shot, perhaps one of the longest in the history of science. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 29 12:32:47 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA24534; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 12:22:23 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 12:22:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030929150239.00b03608@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 15:20:50 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Fleischmann addresses an important question about history Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"v7Ttt3.0.F_5.jP8U_"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52002 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen Lawrence writes: > Here's another answer, a little different from the one Jed got. I heard > it in a lecture at MIT on cold fusion. The lecturer said this is the > answer he got when he asked Fleischman the same question. > > As I recall it, he said he was told by Fleischman that it was "common > knowledge" at the time among electrochemists that calibrating a > calorimeter for an electrolysis run using light water was > straightforward, and could be done to very high precision (a number of > 99% sticks in my mind). BUT, Fleischman told him, calibration using > heavy water never worked well -- the results would commonly wander > around by a few percent. A precision of perhaps 95% was the best one > could do. Very interesting! It sounds plausible. I will ask Fleischmann if he recalls saying this. No doubt there were many tell-tale signs, such as the charged particles Mizuno detected and then dismissed. Ordinary researchers often overlook evidence that geniuses latch on to, perhaps subconsciously. In his book, Mizuno remarked that the idea of cold fusion would occur to "any electrochemist." After all, it occured to Paneth and Peters. The idea was not all that original. It was the execution that set F&P apart from the others. > Take this for whatever it's worth. The lecturer went on to say that > he'd asked other electrochemists about this D vs H effect and they'd > never heard of it, but, he said, maybe it really was "common knowledge" > among some he hadn't asked. Fleischmann has a bad habit of assuming people know more than they know. He often assumes that some esoteric fact is common knowledge when actually the only two people in the world who really know it are Fleischmann and Bockris. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 29 13:24:35 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA17948; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 13:20:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 13:20:09 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030929141135.01ca93e0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 14:47:09 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Segway Recall - the difficulty of evaluating new technology Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <81q29D.A.VYE.4PJe_@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52003 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: alexander hollins writes: > of course, the segway runs at what, 5-7 mph? and > since it only keeps you from falling while its on and > moving, what the software patch amounts to is the > vehicle giving a dead stop anyways.... just a little > earlier. i fail to see how this is a help.. It helps because the rider will surely realize something is wrong. A rider may easily overlook an LED or audible warning, as I have done on the electric bicycle, but he will definitely notice when the machine slows down and stops even though he is telling it to go. He will examine the machine and notice the low battery warning. I have never ridden a Segway, but I have ridden a variety of improbable small vehicles in traffic, so I have some feel for how it might work. Unless you have this kind of experience, it is probably difficult for you to appreciate how the Segway works, how a rider might overlook a low battery warning, or what the advantages of slowing down might be. I think a person should be very cautious when critiquing or drawing conclusions about a radical new gadget like the Segway. In this case, even the designers failed to realize that a visual and audible low battery warning is not sufficient. (Of course I am only speculating about why, but I do have some relevant experience.) I recently read a newspaper speculating about the effects hard disk video recorders may have on the broadcasting industry. It was written conscientiously, but I am sure the author does not own one of these gadgets, and he has not used one. He did not realize how radically they transform the experience of watching television. He thought of the recorder as an improved version of a VCR. He did not realize, for example, that the recorder allows you to skip the advertisements in a television program that is already underway when you happen to find while channel surfing. He thought that you can only eliminate the advertisements when you plan ahead and record the entire show ahead of time, which is how a VCR works. When word processors were first introduced, many people assumed they were no better than correcting typewriters, and a few years later people failed to see the advantage of a general purpose microcomputer has over a dedicated word processor. People who do not have firsthand experience using a technology often have difficulty appreciating and evaluating it. When people first discussed railroads, and passed laws to finance, build and regulate them, they thought of railroads as another kind of canal or road. They did not realize the essential differences and advantages, or the great danger of speed and momentum rail cars would present. When the first commercial line opened, in England, one of the spectators watching the first railroad train in history come into a station was so taken aback, so confused by the sight, and overwhelmed, he did not move out of the way in time. The train ran over him and cut off his legs, and he died a short while later. From our perspective it is impossible to imagine how anyone could be so overwhelmed, and act like a panicked deer frozen in headlights. The thing is, the sight of a railroad train heading in your direction was utterly novel to the world. No one had ever seen or imagined it before. The train was much faster and larger than a horse-drawn stagecoach. People had no intuitive sense that you must get out of the way long before it reaches you, and stand well away from the tracks. A few years later everyone understood that. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 29 14:12:44 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA07688; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 14:08:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 14:08:35 -0700 Message-ID: <20030929210831.72919.qmail@web12407.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 14:08:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Kyle Mcallister Subject: well, I'm back To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52004 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hello all, The header said it. I'm back after a period of unrest in my home life. Myabe I can actually keep up again. Anything new and interesting in the world of the vortexians? I actually hadn't really thought about resubscribing until I got an email requesting that I do so. Thats a new one on me :) Kyle __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 29 14:23:36 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA19049; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 14:19:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 14:19:14 -0700 Message-ID: <008901c386ce$7c0b34c0$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Stunning new CF discovery Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 14:13:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0086_01C38693.CF2615C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52005 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0086_01C38693.CF2615C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here is your much needed Monday break from hum-drum news... http://www.brokennewz.com/technology/pasta.asp Los Alamos, NM - Dr. Sidney P. Dinsmore, a senior researcher with the US = Department of Energy, has achieved a scientific breakthrough by creating = the first sustainable cold fusion reaction in a laboratory by combining = pasta and anti-pasta ... something that physicists and Italian chefs heretofore had thought = impossible. Bon apetite, Jones Funny thing - the way the mind works... esp. with the web as = counterpoint...for instance, a previous post of JR mentioned "Paneth and = Peters" which rang a bell and I was trying to remember if that was = before the discovery of heavy water (it was)... but later at Google, I = mistakenly typed in "Panos and Pauls" which was a favorite restaurant = years ago that somehow led to the pasta and anti-pasta thing ...well = anyway I wonder what would have happened if.... Paneth and Peters had = come along a few years later, after deuterium was discovered and with = full Nazi support...could the world (or downtown London) have been = drastically changed with a little tritium in the sweaty palms of the = Oberbefehlshaber der Luftwaffe? Might make a good premise for one of = those time-travel movies, ala the one coming out in Nov. of Michael = Crichton's novel, Timeline. ------=_NextPart_000_0086_01C38693.CF2615C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Here is your much needed Monday break from hum-drum news...
http://www.broken= newz.com/technology/pasta.asp
 
 
Los Alamos, NM - Dr. Sidney P. Dinsmore, a senior researcher with = the US=20 Department of Energy, has achieved a scientific breakthrough by creating = the=20 first sustainable cold fusion reaction in a laboratory by combining = pasta and=20 anti-pasta
 
... something that physicists and Italian chefs heretofore had = thought=20 impossible.

Bon apetite,
 
Jones
 
Funny thing - the way the mind works... esp. with the web = as=20 counterpoint...for instance, a previous post of JR = mentioned "Paneth and=20 Peters" which rang a bell and I was trying to remember if that was = before the=20 discovery of heavy water (it was)... but later at Google, I mistakenly = typed in=20 "Panos and Pauls" which was a favorite restaurant years = ago that=20 somehow led to the pasta and anti-pasta thing ...well anyway I = wonder what=20 would have happened if.... Paneth and Peters had come along a few years = later,=20 after deuterium was discovered and with full Nazi support...could the = world (or=20 downtown London) have been drastically changed with a little tritium in = the=20 sweaty palms of the Oberbefehlshaber der Luftwaffe? Might make a = good=20 premise for one of those time-travel movies, ala the one coming out in = Nov. of =20 Michael Crichton's novel, Timeline.
------=_NextPart_000_0086_01C38693.CF2615C0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 29 16:40:28 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA18915; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 16:38:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 16:38:08 -0700 Message-ID: <3F78A9BB.3070602@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 17:52:59 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Segway Recall - the difficulty of evaluating new technology References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030929141135.01ca93e0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030929141135.01ca93e0@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52007 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > alexander hollins writes: > > > of course, the segway runs at what, 5-7 mph? and > > since it only keeps you from falling while its on and > > moving, what the software patch amounts to is the > > vehicle giving a dead stop anyways.... just a little > > earlier. i fail to see how this is a help.. > > It helps because the rider will surely realize something is wrong. (The commercial version has a top speed of 12 mph and maintains balance even while stopped.) Maybe it's like the driver who explained to the cop that she was hurrying home before she ran out of gas. It's hard to find electrical outlets on a busy street corner. > I recently read a newspaper speculating about the effects hard disk > video recorders may have on the broadcasting industry. Yes, I am about to recommend the purchase about a hundred such industrial devices for both audio and video recording. They are great in security applications where you need to access an image or audio stored while maintaining the recording function. They also archive to DAT tape. But are you aware that some of the consumer products such as TIVO are under attack for theft of service? If you bypass the commercials, aren't you technically stealing? :-) > People who do not have firsthand experience using a technology often > have difficulty appreciating and evaluating it. When people first > discussed railroads, and passed laws to finance, build and regulate > them, they thought of railroads as another kind of canal or road. They > did not realize the essential differences and advantages, or the great > danger of speed and momentum rail cars would present. Whew! I had first hand experience with this in the late seventies when I leaned over a platform to photograph one of the first MARTA trains on approach. You cannot judge the speed of an approaching train! I came this > < close to losing my head. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 29 16:40:42 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA18750; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 16:37:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 16:37:59 -0700 Message-ID: <3F78AAB3.8080603@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 17:57:07 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Digital TV Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52008 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: >A Panasonic PT-40LC12. > Yes, LCD is a good compromise between projection tube and plasma. The only shortfall is that the bulb is good for 3,000 to 5,000 hours and costs $300 to replace. Check your extended warranty since most do not cover bulb replacement. Plasma shares the benefits of a bright screen and wide viewing angle as with LCD; but, you pay 3x to 4x more. I went with the old projection tube technology. They use standard CRT's and suffer from a narrow viewing angle; but, can last as long as a CRT direct view TV. My Panasonic (PT-51HX42 - 480p/1080i) is not selling well because it has a 4:3 ratio screen and most people equate HDTV and 16:9 ratio. Indeed, my purchase price was $1,799; but, I took advantage of the price guarantees at Circuit City and received two rebates @ 110% x delta bringing my cost somewhere around $1,300. My friend, who owns a 65" XBR Sony ($5,000), made fun of me when I bought the 4:3 TV. However, when he came over to see it, he realized that, for most available material from cable or satellite, the image on my screen was as large as on his. And he constantly sets his to stretch the 4:3 images to fit a near 16:9 ratio, a distortion that I cannot tolerate. The unit is on casters; so, when I want to view a DVD, I can pull it out of its cubby hole to about 8 feet away. The 16:9 progressive scan image is then comparable to what you see in a theatre, AND the popcorn is cheaper and I serve beer!! Have you considered buying a HD broadcast receiver yet? They should come down from the current $500 price as a result of having to comply with only a single standard. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 29 16:40:43 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA18741; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 16:37:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 16:37:58 -0700 Message-ID: <3F78413E.60604@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 10:27:10 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: NASA Goofed References: <1ed.105a583e.2ca4a8d0@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <1ed.105a583e.2ca4a8d0@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52008 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com wrote: > Yes, I would like a copy if its not to much troubble. > > Frank Znidarsic > 481 Boyer St. > Johnstown PA 15906 I put the Li paper in the mail today. I only ask that you provide your comments, onlist if you'd like. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 29 16:41:34 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA18622; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 16:37:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 16:37:52 -0700 Message-ID: <3F784E62.4090805@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 11:23:14 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Digital TV References: <410-220039129135925328@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <410-220039129135925328@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <8PwfD.A.diE.OJMe_@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52006 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: >A Panasonic PT-40LC12. > Yes, LCD is a good compromise between projection tube and plasma. The only shortfall is that the bulb is good for 3,000 to 5,000 hours and costs $300 to replace. Check your extended warranty since most do not cover bulb replacement. Plasma shares the benefits of a bright screen and wide viewing angle as with LCD; but, you pay 3x to 4x more. I went with the old projection tube technology. They use standard CRT's and suffer from a narrow viewing angle; but, can last as long as a CRT direct view TV. My Panasonic (PT-51HX42 - 480p/1080i) is not selling well because it has a 4:3 ratio screen and most people equate HDTV and 16:9 ratio. Indeed, my purchase price was $1,799; but, I took advantage of the price guarantees at Circuit City and received two rebates @ 110% x delta bringing my cost somewhere around $1,300. My friend, who owns a 65" XBR Sony ($5,000), made fun of me when I bought the 4:3 TV. However, when he came over to see it, he realized that, for most available material from cable or satellite, the image on my screen was as large as on his. And he constantly sets his to stretch the 4:3 images to fit a near 16:9 ratio, a distortion that I cannot tolerate. The unit is on casters; so, when I want to view a DVD, I can pull it out of its cubby hole to about 8 feet away. The 16:9 progressive scan image is then comparable to what you see in a theatre, AND the popcorn is cheaper and I serve beer!! Have you considered buying a HD broadcast receiver yet? They should come down from the current $500 price as a result. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 29 19:05:21 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA24439; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 19:02:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 19:02:21 -0700 Message-ID: <007201c386ee$97e48460$3259ccd1@asus> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20030929174523.20870.qmail@web11701.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Segway Recall Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:01:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52009 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Alexander Hollins wrote: > of course, the Segway runs at what, 5-7 mph? and > since it only keeps you from falling while its on and > moving, This is not quite true. While power is available, it will be stationary and hold a rider upright, even on a slope. The system responds to the driver's lean, forward or backward. If on, it stands still but hunts a bit, as can be seen on a 60 Minutes video a while back. Active power is required to maintain the balance. Batteries fail, it goes limp and will fall over unless propped up by the little stand. I expect that the software patch could be arranged so as to refuse to start if too low, or to slow to a stop as it approaches a cutoff level, so it doesn't suddenly dump the rider. A safety margin must be provided, for if it approaches the cutoff point just as the rider tries to ascend a ramp, there could be an accident. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 29 19:06:32 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA25554; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 19:03:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 19:03:20 -0700 Message-ID: <007101c386ee$97937e30$3259ccd1@asus> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030926144428.00ba9cf8@pop.mindspring.com> <003c01c38493$c18d2ea0$9141ccd1@asus> <3F765018.9010409@cox.net> Subject: Re: DLP moving mirror TV's Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:00:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52010 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hoyt Stearns wrote: > My company recently purchased a Mitsubishi DLP projector-- it was > awesome--super bright even in daylight. They told me that > the light bulb cost $800. so I did some research. I found them for > ~$500 on Internet. The price of these lamps is a factor in the digital projectors. Originally, it amounted to about $0.25 per hour of use. Their price is coming down and the life is extended. > > I'd never heard of these Philips UHP lamps before. That stands for > Ultra High Pressure. > They are 200Watt 1mm mercury arc lamps where the pressure is 3000 psi! > I wonder what would happen if there was some deuterium inside. These are not mercury arc lamps, which give a bluish light. Instead, there is a mixture of metals which give a very white spectrum. Their cousins can been see illuminating auto parking lots and sports stadiums. The generic term HID, High Intensity Discharge lamps. > > I also looked into the DLP (TI moving mirror technology). The mirrors > are substantially larger > than the wavelength of red light, but this brought up a question: > > Modern semiconductor photolithography used to use platinum on glass > photomasks to expose the silicon, > where the mask is exact pattern to be imaged on the silicon wafer. Now, > because the feature size is 35nm or so, > as I recall, they use phase masks which are calculated holograms because > the features are substantially > less than the light wavelength, even with the short wavelength > ultraviolet exposures they use. In a continuing effort to get smaller features on semiconductors, very sophisticated optical techniques are used to bypass the traditional limitations of lens optics. An important part of the system is the binary exposure characteristic of the resist, which can switch from soluble to insoluble at a very predictable exposure level. This, coupled with the optics and exposure control, can result in features smaller than the wavelength of the light used. > > Question: If the micro-mirrors were made substantially smaller than > the wavelength of blue light, > would it be feasible to calculate a pattern for the mirrors so it could > still project a viable image? It might be possible. But why? The TI micromirror arrays are finding uses outside of TV. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 29 20:05:37 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA17975; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 20:01:16 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 20:01:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Peer-Info: remote-ip 199.125.98.208 local-ip 199.125.85.40 local-name mercury.mv.net User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 22:33:18 -0700 Subject: Hafnium weapons? From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "vortex l eskimo.com" Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id UAA17892 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52011 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Two articles on "hafnium weapon" technology. Note the invidious comparison with "cold fusion" -- same folks knocking cold fusion (e.g. Koonin) are attacking hafnium bomb physics. Yes, and pigs can't fly.... Note well, from New Scientist article: "The hafnium explosive could be extremely powerful. One gram of fully charged hafnium isomer could store more energy than 50 kilograms of TNT. Miniature missiles could be made with warheads that are far more powerful than existing conventional weapons, giving massively enhanced firepower to the armed forces using them." Dr. Eugene F. Mallove New Energy Foundation, Inc. Infinite Energy Magazine P.O. Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 Ph: 603-485-4700 Fx: 603-485-4710 www.infinite-energy.com Superbomb ignites science dispute Pentagon advisers challenge experiments behind nonnuclear weapon Keay Davidson, Chronicle Science Writer Sunday, September 28, 2003 page A-1 http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2003/09/28/MN23720.DTL The Pentagon's pursuit of a new kind of nonnuclear super-weapon has sparked a behind-the-scenes revolt among its elite scientific advisers, some of whom reject the scheme as pseudoscience. The military's goal is to develop a bomb that might be far more powerful than existing conventional weapons of the same size. Precisely targeted, such a weapon could take out targets -- such as underground caverns that conceal weapons of mass destruction -- without posing the severe political risks of using nuclear bombs. The key to the concept is a little known element called hafnium. By figuring out how to unleash the abundant energy from a hafnium isotope, called hafnium-178, the military hopes to develop a new generation of weapons. According to a Defense Department Web site, such a weapon might "revolutionize all aspects of warfare." The Pentagon is now quietly investigating ways to mass produce the isotope. Late last year, it created the 12-member Hafnium Isomer Production Panel (HIPP). Its purpose: to assess ways to mass-produce the isotope for military uses ranging from bombs to advanced forms of propulsion. Yet some of the nation's most distinguished scientists and military advisers say that such futuristic dreams of tomorrow's battlefields are premature at best and nonsense at worst. For four years, working largely behind the scenes, they have advised the Pentagon that claims by hafnium-178 enthusiasts -- led by physicist Carl Collins of the University of Texas -- defy sound physical theory and have not been reproduced in lab experiments by other researchers. For the first time, some of these skeptics are going public with their concerns. Last month, in a memorandum to Pentagon and Energy Department officials obtained by The Chronicle, five of the 12 members of the military's own advisory panel on mass producing hafnium-178 and other top experts warned against prematurely proceeding to develop weapons "applications that may not make physical sense." "In my opinion, this matter is worse than cold fusion," said panel member Bill Herrmannsfeldt, referring to unconfirmed claims by scientists in the 1980s that they had generated nuclear fusion energy at low temperatures. Herrmannsfeldt, a physicist at the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center, is leading a revolt against hafnium-178 weapons work within HIPP itself. Although Herrmannsfeldt regards claims for hafnium-178's super-energy powers as nonsense, he fears that other nations will take them seriously, triggering a new arms race. Recently, he successfully urged numerous top scientists to co-sign a letter to Washington officials citing experts' reservations about the scientific credibility of hafnium-178 claims and asking for a review of those claims by independent experts. HIGHLY RESPECTED SKEPTICS Among the signatories to the Aug. 13 letter to officials at the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) and the U.S. Energy Department are Stanford's Wolfgang Panofsky and Sidney Drell, both grand old men of the American weapons advisory establishment. The letter urges the federal government to create an independent panel to resolve the scientific community's dispute over claims made for the hafnium- 178 "nuclear isomer," as it's called. The government should do so, they stress, before spending any more money to develop weapons "applications that may not make physical sense." Jan Walker, a spokeswoman for DARPA at its Arlington, Va., headquarters, said the agency is reviewing the letter but declined to discuss the issue. Walker noted that in conducting advanced research and technology development for the Defense Department, DARPA has been involved in producing the technical underpinnings of the Internet, the stealth fighter and bomber, and unmanned air vehicles such as Global Hawk and Predator. Some isotopes can experience high-energy, or "nuclear isomer," states in which they retain abnormal amounts of energy. One of these isotopes is hafnium- 178; its nuclear-isomer state is technically known as hafnium-178m2. Normally, this nuclear isomer has a half-life of 31 years, meaning half of it decays away in 31 years. That's way too slow to heat and ignite a firecracker, much less a super-bomb. Hafnium is a bright, natural metal. For weapons purposes, the Pentagon would need large quantities of the particular type called hafnium-178. The known amount of hafnium-178 nuclear isomer in the world is so small that the Pentagon would have to mass produce it. No one has a good idea how. The Pentagon appointed the HIPP panel to try to find out. One possible way would involve bombarding elements in a giant particle accelerator, then developing a tedious process for extracting the hafnium-178 nuclear isomer. Some scientists are skeptical that such a technique could be developed cost effectively -- even if hafnium-178 nuclear isomer proves to be an exotic energy source as Collins and his colleagues have speculated. In January 1999, an international team led by Collins claimed it had unleashed startling amounts of energy -- far more than theoretically expected - - from the hafnium-178 isomer. They did so, they reported in the journal Physical Review Letters, by bombarding the isotope with X-rays from an ordinary dental X-ray machine. Besides Collins, the article's 13 co-authors included scientists at the U.S. Air Force Research Laboratory in Albuquerque; Russia's Joint Institute for Nuclear Research; and Sandia National Laboratories, a nuclear weapons lab in New Mexico. Collins himself has a weighty reputation. A decade earlier, the Texas Academy of Sciences had named him "Distinguished Texas Scientist" of the year for his research on high-energy lasers. Elsewhere, other scientists tried to replicate Collins' work by bombarding the isotope with radiation from large particle accelerators, which are far more powerful than the Collins team's dental X-ray machine. Results: negative. One of Collins' original collaborators on the 1999 paper, nuclear physicist James Carroll of Youngstown State University, has since been unable to replicate the Collins experiment on his own. He suspects the energy-unleashing process "is more complex than (Collins) originally thought and needs further study," Carroll said in an interview. Furthermore, scientists from Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, Los Alamos National Laboratory and Argonne National Laboratory found "no evidence" of unusual energy emissions from hafnium-178 exposed to X-rays at Argonne's hefty Advanced Photon Source accelerator, they reported in Physical Review Letters in 2001. The hafnium-178 controversy was also investigated by the members of "Jason," which has functioned for decades as a kind of supreme advisory council of military science. Mostly distinguished physical scientists based at universities and private companies, these scholars -- often collectively known as "the Jasons" -- use their expertise to critique the Pentagon's more ambitious schemes for expensive, futuristic weapons. Claims that hafnium-178 can unleash intense energy are based on experiments that are "poorly characterized and ill-described," Jason member Steve Koonin wrote in 1999, summarizing the group's findings in a letter to the U.S. Arms Control and Disarmament Agency. The claims are "a priori implausible -- extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof," but that's lacking so far, added Koonin, a nuclear physicist and provost of the California Institute of Technology. "It is extraordinarily unlikely that there is something here" that portends a new generation of futuristic weapons, Koonin said in a phone interview. However, he noted that Collins and others have reported new results since 1999, and that he'd support a new Jason analysis if the Pentagon or Energy Department requested it. Collins has stuck to his guns. In a number of email responses to a Chronicle inquiry, he compared the critics to early 20th century naysayers who denied the feasibility of atomic energy. Collins insists his findings have "been confirmed at about all of the world's third-generation (most advanced) synchrotron radiation sources, except the DOE facility at Argonne. . . . Naturally, that causes controversy, but it is a strength of the scientific method that continued study and measurement will resolve the controversy." One reason some critics have been unable to verify his original claim, Collins said, is that their instrument was "blind" to one of the spectral lines, the so-called 130 line, that he used in measuring energy from hafnium- 178. Hence, "they could not possibly have seen the results" even "if they had succeeded in doing it." But physicist John Becker of Lawrence Livermore said that to the best of his knowledge, no scientist has verified Collins' claim except Pat McDaniel, a researcher at Sandia who was one of Collins' original collaborators. McDaniel has not published his results, Becker said. McDaniel could not be reached for an interview. "I don't think there's any controversy at all: We've done two experiments, and we cannot reproduce his (Collins') results," Becker said in an interview. The Becker team has used instruments that are "a hundred thousand times more sensitive" than Collins' dental X-ray machine, and "in spite of our best efforts, we cannot reproduce those results." The Pentagon isn't discouraged by skeptics' doubts about the hafnium-178 isomer. In fact, it's trying to figure out how to mass produce the stuff. According to one knowledgeable source who insisted on anonymity, a full-scale hafnium-178 facility, if approved, "would probably (cost) tens to hundreds of millions of dollars." At one Pentagon Web site, dubbed the Military Critical Technologies List, under the section titled "Armaments and Energetic Materials," the text explains that hafnium-178's reported "extraordinary energy density has the potential to revolutionize all aspects of warfare." Recently, amid their post-Iraq-war anxieties over U.S. military and foreign policy, European media have sounded an alarm about possible hafnium-178 weapons. New Scientist, a respected popular science journal in England, ran a story on Aug. 13 declaring, "Gamma-ray Weapons Could Trigger Next Arms Race." By coincidence, that same day, five members of the HIPP panel and 10 other experts signed a letter to federal officials citing "the numerous objections raised by the (Jasons) and others over any projected use of the hafnium isomer." The letter urged the officials to launch an independent scientific review of the subject "before proceeding to study (military) applications that may not make physical sense." Email Keay Davidson at kdavidson@sfchronicle.com. _________________________________________________________________ Get MSN 8 Dial-up Internet Service FREE for one month. Limited time offer-- sign up now! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup ****** Scientific News Scientific News    Military engineering and weapon GAMMA-RAY WEAPONS GAMMA-RAY WEAPONS AN EXOTIC kind of nuclear explosive being developed by the US Department of Defense could blur the critical distinction between conventional and nuclear weapons. The work has also raised fears that weapons based on this technology could trigger the next arms race. The explosive works by stimulating the release of energy from the nuclei of certain elements but does not involve nuclear fission or fusion. The energy, emitted as gamma radiation, is thousands of times greater than that from conventional chemical explosives. The technology has already been included in the Department of Defense's Militarily Critical Technologies List, which says: "Such extraordinary energy density has the potential to revolutionise all aspects of warfare." Scientists have known for many years that the nuclei of some elements, such as hafnium, can exist in a high-energy state, or nuclear isomer, that slowly decays to a low-energy state by emitting gamma rays. For example, hafnium178m2, the excited, isomeric form of hafnium-178, has a half-life of 31 years. The possibility that this process could be explosive was discovered when Carl Collins and colleagues at the University of Texas at Dallas demonstrated that they could artificially trigger the decay of the hafnium isomer by bombarding it with low-energy Xrays (New Scientist, 3 July 1999, p42). The experiment released 60 times as much energy as was put in, and in theory a much greater energy release could be achieved. Before hafnium can be used as an explosive, energy has to be "pumped" into its nuclei. Just as the electrons in atoms can be excited when the atom absorbs a photon, hafnium nuclei can become excited by absorbing high-energy photons. The nuclei later return to their lowest energy states by emitting a gamma-ray photon. Nuclear isomers were originally seen as a means of storing energy, but the possibility that the decay could be accelerated fired the interest of the Department of Defense, which is also investigating several other candidate materials such as thorium and niobium. For the moment, the production method involves bombarding tantalum with protons, causing it to decay into hafnium-178m2. This requires a nuclear reactor or a particle accelerator, and only tiny amounts can be made. Currently, the Air Force Research Laboratory at Kirtland, New Mexico, which is studying the phenomenon, gets its hafnium-178m2 from SRS Technologies, a research and development company in Huntsville, Alabama, which refines the hafnium from nuclear material left over from other experiments. The company is under contract to produce experimental sources of hafnium178m2, but only in amounts less than one ten-thousandth of a gram. But in future there may be cheaper ways to create the hafnium isomer - by bombarding ordinary hafnium with high-energy photons, for example. Hill Roberts, chief scientist at SRS, believes that technology to produce gram quantities will exist within five years. The price is likely to be high- similar to enriched uranium, which costs thousands of dollars per kilogram- but unlike uranium it can be used in any quantity, as it does not require a critical mass to maintain the nuclear reaction. The hafnium explosive could be extremely powerful. One gram of fully charged hafnium isomer could store more energy than 50 kilograms of TNT. Miniature missiles could be made with warheads that are far more powerful than existing conventional weapons, giving massively enhanced firepower to the armed forces using them. The effect of a nuclear-isomer explosion would be to release high-energy gamma rays capable of killing any living thing in the immediate area. It would cause little fallout compared to a fission explosion, but any undetonated isomer would be dispersed as small radioactive particles, making it a somewhat "dirty" bomb. This material could cause long-term health problems for anybody who breathed it in. There would also be political fallout. In the 1950s, the US backed away from developing nuclear mini-weapons such as the "Davy Crockett" nuclear bazooka that delivered an explosive punch of 18 tonnes of TNT. These weapons blurred the divide between the explosive power of nuclear and conventional weapons, and the government feared that military commanders would be more likely to use nuclear weapons that had a similar effect on the battlefield to conventional weapons. By ensuring that the explosive power of a nuclear weapon was always far greater, it hoped that they could only be used in exceptional circumstance when a dramatic escalation of force was deemed necessary. Then in 1994, the US confirmed this policy with the Spratt-Furse law, which prevents US military from developing mini-nukes of less than five kilotons. But the development of a new weapon that spans the gap between the explosive power of nuclear and conventional weapons would remove this restraint, giving commanders a way of increasing the amount of force they can use in a series of small steps. Nuclear-isomer weapons could be a major advantage to armies possessing them, leading to the possibility of an arms race. AndrZ Gsponer, director of the Independent Scientific Research Institute in Geneva, believes that a nation without such weapons would not be able to fight one that possesses them. As a result, he says, "many countries which will not have access to these weapons will produce nuclear weapons as a deterrent", leading to a new cycle of proliferation. The Department of Defense notes that there are serious technical issues to be overcome and that useful applications may be decades away. But its Militarily Critical Technologies List also says: "We should remember that less than six years intervened between the first scientific publication characterising the phenomenon of fission and the first use of a nuclear weapon in 1945." ### UK CONTACT - Claire Bowles, New Scientist Press Office, London: Tel: 44-207-331-2751 or email claire.bowles@rbi.co.uk, New Scientist US CONTACT - Michelle Soucy, New Scientist Boston Office: Tel: 617-558-4939 or email michelle.soucy@newscientist.com The source of the given news and copyrights belong to the New Scientist Publishing date: August 19, 2003 Back   Copyright © 1998-2003  Ivicom To add the material   Terms of registration   Terms for placing technology, inventions, productions & other informations   Price list From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 29 20:47:42 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA27226; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 20:45:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 20:45:05 -0700 Message-ID: <3F78EFA8.F638B2A5@ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:04:50 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hafnium weapons? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52012 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I suggest we all hope (pray) as hard as we know how that this method of releasing energy is not possible. If a weak X-ray is able to destabilize the material, just think what a high-energy cosmic ray will do. Imagine one pellet of the material releasing its energy at the manufacturing site and the resulting gamma ray destabilizing all other pellets in the area. This looks like one more unintended consequence that has just raised the stakes. Ed "Eugene F. Mallove" wrote: > Two articles on "hafnium weapon" technology. Note the invidious comparison > with "cold fusion" -- same folks knocking cold fusion (e.g. Koonin) are > attacking hafnium bomb physics. Yes, and pigs can't fly.... > > Note well, from New Scientist article: "The hafnium explosive could be > extremely powerful. One gram of fully charged hafnium isomer could store > more energy than 50 kilograms of TNT. Miniature missiles could be made with > warheads that are far more powerful than existing conventional weapons, > giving massively enhanced firepower to the armed forces using them." > > Dr. Eugene F. Mallove > New Energy Foundation, Inc. > Infinite Energy Magazine > P.O. Box 2816 > Concord, NH 03302-2816 > > Ph: 603-485-4700 > Fx: 603-485-4710 > www.infinite-energy.com > > Superbomb ignites science dispute > Pentagon advisers challenge experiments behind nonnuclear weapon > Keay Davidson, Chronicle Science Writer Sunday, September 28, 2003 page > A-1 > http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2003/09/28/MN23720.DTL > > The Pentagon's pursuit of a new kind of nonnuclear super-weapon has sparked > a behind-the-scenes revolt among its elite scientific advisers, some of whom > reject the scheme as pseudoscience. The military's goal is to develop a bomb > that might be far more powerful than existing conventional weapons of the > same size. Precisely targeted, such a weapon could take out targets -- such > as underground caverns that conceal weapons of mass destruction -- without > posing the severe political risks of using nuclear bombs. > > The key to the concept is a little known element called hafnium. By figuring > out how to unleash the abundant energy from a hafnium isotope, called > hafnium-178, the military hopes to develop a new generation of weapons. > According to a Defense Department Web site, such a weapon might > "revolutionize all aspects of warfare." The Pentagon is now quietly > investigating ways to mass produce the isotope. Late last year, it created > the 12-member Hafnium Isomer Production Panel (HIPP). Its purpose: to assess > ways to mass-produce the isotope for military uses ranging from bombs to > advanced forms of propulsion. > > Yet some of the nation's most distinguished scientists and military advisers > say that such futuristic dreams of tomorrow's battlefields are premature at > best and nonsense at worst. For four years, working largely behind the > scenes, they have advised the Pentagon that claims by hafnium-178 > enthusiasts -- led by physicist Carl Collins of the University of Texas -- > defy sound physical theory and have not been reproduced in lab experiments > by other researchers. For the first time, some of these skeptics are going > public with their concerns. Last month, in a memorandum to Pentagon and > Energy Department officials obtained by The Chronicle, five of the 12 > members of the military's own advisory panel on mass producing hafnium-178 > and other top experts warned against prematurely proceeding to develop > weapons "applications that may not make physical sense." > > "In my opinion, this matter is worse than cold fusion," said panel member > Bill Herrmannsfeldt, referring to unconfirmed claims by scientists in the > 1980s that they had generated nuclear fusion energy at low temperatures. > Herrmannsfeldt, a physicist at the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center, is > leading a revolt against hafnium-178 weapons work within HIPP itself. > Although Herrmannsfeldt regards claims for hafnium-178's super-energy powers > as nonsense, he fears that other nations will take them seriously, > triggering a new arms race. Recently, he successfully urged numerous top > scientists to co-sign a letter to Washington officials citing experts' > reservations about the scientific credibility of hafnium-178 claims and > asking for a review of those claims by independent experts. > > HIGHLY RESPECTED SKEPTICS > Among the signatories to the Aug. 13 letter to officials at the Defense > Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) and the U.S. Energy Department are > Stanford's Wolfgang Panofsky and Sidney Drell, both grand old men of the > American weapons advisory establishment. The letter urges the federal > government to create an independent panel to resolve the scientific > community's dispute over claims made for the hafnium- 178 "nuclear isomer," > as it's called. The government should do so, they stress, before spending > any more money to develop weapons "applications that may not make physical > sense." > > Jan Walker, a spokeswoman for DARPA at its Arlington, Va., headquarters, > said the agency is reviewing the letter but declined to discuss the issue. > Walker noted that in conducting advanced research and technology development > for the Defense Department, DARPA has been involved in producing the > technical underpinnings of the Internet, the stealth fighter and bomber, and > unmanned air vehicles such as Global Hawk and Predator. Some isotopes can > experience high-energy, or "nuclear isomer," states in which they retain > abnormal amounts of energy. One of these isotopes is hafnium- 178; its > nuclear-isomer state is technically known as hafnium-178m2. Normally, this > nuclear isomer has a half-life of 31 years, meaning half of it decays away > in 31 years. That's way too slow to heat and ignite a firecracker, much less > a super-bomb. > > Hafnium is a bright, natural metal. For weapons purposes, the Pentagon would > need large quantities of the particular type called hafnium-178. The known > amount of hafnium-178 nuclear isomer in the world is so small that the > Pentagon would have to mass produce it. No one has a good idea how. The > Pentagon appointed the HIPP panel to try to find out. One possible way would > involve bombarding elements in a giant particle accelerator, then developing > a tedious process for extracting the hafnium-178 nuclear isomer. Some > scientists are skeptical that such a technique could be developed cost > effectively -- even if hafnium-178 nuclear isomer proves to be an exotic > energy source as Collins and his colleagues have speculated. > > In January 1999, an international team led by Collins claimed it had > unleashed startling amounts of energy -- far more than theoretically > expected - - from the hafnium-178 isomer. They did so, they reported in the > journal Physical Review Letters, by bombarding the isotope with X-rays from > an ordinary dental X-ray machine. Besides Collins, the article's 13 > co-authors included scientists at the U.S. Air Force Research Laboratory in > Albuquerque; Russia's Joint Institute for Nuclear Research; and Sandia > National Laboratories, a nuclear weapons lab in New Mexico. Collins himself > has a weighty reputation. A decade earlier, the Texas Academy of Sciences > had named him "Distinguished Texas Scientist" of the year for his research > on high-energy lasers. > > Elsewhere, other scientists tried to replicate Collins' work by bombarding > the isotope with radiation from large particle accelerators, which are far > more powerful than the Collins team's dental X-ray machine. Results: > negative. One of Collins' original collaborators on the 1999 paper, nuclear > physicist James Carroll of Youngstown State University, has since been > unable to replicate the Collins experiment on his own. He suspects the > energy-unleashing process "is more complex than (Collins) originally thought > and needs further study," Carroll said in an interview. > > Furthermore, scientists from Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, Los > Alamos National Laboratory and Argonne National Laboratory found "no > evidence" of unusual energy emissions from hafnium-178 exposed to X-rays at > Argonne's hefty Advanced Photon Source accelerator, they reported in > Physical Review Letters in 2001. The hafnium-178 controversy was also > investigated by the members of "Jason," which has functioned for decades as > a kind of supreme advisory council of military science. Mostly distinguished > physical scientists based at universities and private companies, these > scholars -- often collectively known as "the Jasons" -- use their expertise > to critique the Pentagon's more ambitious schemes for expensive, futuristic > weapons. > > Claims that hafnium-178 can unleash intense energy are based on experiments > that are "poorly characterized and ill-described," Jason member Steve Koonin > wrote in 1999, summarizing the group's findings in a letter to the U.S. Arms > Control and Disarmament Agency. The claims are "a priori implausible -- > extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof," but that's lacking so far, > added Koonin, a nuclear physicist and provost of the California Institute of > Technology. > > "It is extraordinarily unlikely that there is something here" that portends > a new generation of futuristic weapons, Koonin said in a phone interview. > However, he noted that Collins and others have reported new results since > 1999, and that he'd support a new Jason analysis if the Pentagon or Energy > Department requested it. Collins has stuck to his guns. In a number of email > responses to a Chronicle inquiry, he compared the critics to early 20th > century naysayers who denied the feasibility of atomic energy. > > Collins insists his findings have "been confirmed at about all of the > world's third-generation (most advanced) synchrotron radiation sources, > except the DOE facility at Argonne. . . . Naturally, that causes > controversy, but it is a strength of the scientific method that continued > study and measurement will resolve the controversy." One reason some critics > have been unable to verify his original claim, Collins said, is that their > instrument was "blind" to one of the spectral lines, the so-called 130 line, > that he used in measuring energy from hafnium- 178. Hence, "they could not > possibly have seen the results" even "if they had succeeded in doing it." > > But physicist John Becker of Lawrence Livermore said that to the best of his > knowledge, no scientist has verified Collins' claim except Pat McDaniel, a > researcher at Sandia who was one of Collins' original collaborators. > McDaniel has not published his results, Becker said. McDaniel could not be > reached for an interview. "I don't think there's any controversy at all: > We've done two experiments, and we cannot reproduce his (Collins') results," > Becker said in an interview. The Becker team has used instruments that are > "a hundred thousand times more sensitive" than Collins' dental X-ray > machine, and "in spite of our best efforts, we cannot reproduce those > results." > > The Pentagon isn't discouraged by skeptics' doubts about the hafnium-178 > isomer. In fact, it's trying to figure out how to mass produce the stuff. > According to one knowledgeable source who insisted on anonymity, a > full-scale hafnium-178 facility, if approved, "would probably (cost) tens to > hundreds of millions of dollars." At one Pentagon Web site, dubbed the > Military Critical Technologies List, under the section titled "Armaments and > Energetic Materials," the text explains that hafnium-178's reported > "extraordinary energy density has the potential to revolutionize all aspects > of warfare." > > Recently, amid their post-Iraq-war anxieties over U.S. military and foreign > policy, European media have sounded an alarm about possible hafnium-178 > weapons. New Scientist, a respected popular science journal in England, ran > a story on Aug. 13 declaring, "Gamma-ray Weapons Could Trigger Next Arms > Race." By coincidence, that same day, five members of the HIPP panel and 10 > other experts signed a letter to federal officials citing "the numerous > objections raised by the (Jasons) and others over any projected use of the > hafnium isomer." The letter urged the officials to launch an independent > scientific review of the subject "before proceeding to study (military) > applications that may not make physical sense." Email Keay Davidson at > kdavidson@sfchronicle.com. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get MSN 8 Dial-up Internet Service FREE for one month. Limited time offer-- > sign up now! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup > > ****** > > Scientific News > Scientific News    Military engineering and weapon GAMMA-RAY WEAPONS > > GAMMA-RAY WEAPONS > > AN EXOTIC kind of nuclear explosive being developed by the US Department of > Defense could blur the critical distinction between conventional and nuclear > weapons. The work has also raised fears that weapons based on this > technology could trigger the next arms race. > > The explosive works by stimulating the release of energy from the nuclei of > certain elements but does not involve nuclear fission or fusion. The energy, > emitted as gamma radiation, is thousands of times greater than that from > conventional chemical explosives. The technology has already been included > in the Department of Defense's Militarily Critical Technologies List, which > says: "Such extraordinary energy density has the potential to revolutionise > all aspects of warfare." > > Scientists have known for many years that the nuclei of some elements, such > as hafnium, can exist in a high-energy state, or nuclear isomer, that slowly > decays to a low-energy state by emitting gamma rays. For example, > hafnium178m2, the excited, isomeric form of hafnium-178, has a half-life of > 31 years. > > The possibility that this process could be explosive was discovered when > Carl Collins and colleagues at the University of Texas at Dallas > demonstrated that they could artificially trigger the decay of the hafnium > isomer by bombarding it with low-energy Xrays (New Scientist, 3 July 1999, > p42). The experiment released 60 times as much energy as was put in, and in > theory a much greater energy release could be achieved. > > Before hafnium can be used as an explosive, energy has to be "pumped" into > its nuclei. Just as the electrons in atoms can be excited when the atom > absorbs a photon, hafnium nuclei can become excited by absorbing high-energy > photons. The nuclei later return to their lowest energy states by emitting a > gamma-ray photon. Nuclear isomers were originally seen as a means of storing > energy, but the possibility that the decay could be accelerated fired the > interest of the Department of Defense, which is also investigating several > other candidate materials such as thorium and niobium. > > For the moment, the production method involves bombarding tantalum with > protons, causing it to decay into hafnium-178m2. This requires a nuclear > reactor or a particle accelerator, and only tiny amounts can be made. > Currently, the Air Force Research Laboratory at Kirtland, New Mexico, which > is studying the phenomenon, gets its hafnium-178m2 from SRS Technologies, a > research and development company in Huntsville, Alabama, which refines the > hafnium from nuclear material left over from other experiments. The company > is under contract to produce experimental sources of hafnium178m2, but only > in amounts less than one ten-thousandth of a gram. > > But in future there may be cheaper ways to create the hafnium isomer - by > bombarding ordinary hafnium with high-energy photons, for example. Hill > Roberts, chief scientist at SRS, believes that technology to produce gram > quantities will exist within five years. The price is likely to be high- > similar to enriched uranium, which costs thousands of dollars per kilogram- > but unlike uranium it can be used in any quantity, as it does not require a > critical mass to maintain the nuclear reaction. > > The hafnium explosive could be extremely powerful. One gram of fully charged > hafnium isomer could store more energy than 50 kilograms of TNT. Miniature > missiles could be made with warheads that are far more powerful than > existing conventional weapons, giving massively enhanced firepower to the > armed forces using them. > > The effect of a nuclear-isomer explosion would be to release high-energy > gamma rays capable of killing any living thing in the immediate area. It > would cause little fallout compared to a fission explosion, but any > undetonated isomer would be dispersed as small radioactive particles, making > it a somewhat "dirty" bomb. This material could cause long-term health > problems for anybody who breathed it in. > > There would also be political fallout. In the 1950s, the US backed away from > developing nuclear mini-weapons such as the "Davy Crockett" nuclear bazooka > that delivered an explosive punch of 18 tonnes of TNT. These weapons blurred > the divide between the explosive power of nuclear and conventional weapons, > and the government feared that military commanders would be more likely to > use nuclear weapons that had a similar effect on the battlefield to > conventional weapons. By ensuring that the explosive power of a nuclear > weapon was always far greater, it hoped that they could only be used in > exceptional circumstance when a dramatic escalation of force was deemed > necessary. > > Then in 1994, the US confirmed this policy with the Spratt-Furse law, which > prevents US military from developing mini-nukes of less than five kilotons. > But the development of a new weapon that spans the gap between the explosive > power of nuclear and conventional weapons would remove this restraint, > giving commanders a way of increasing the amount of force they can use in a > series of small steps. > > Nuclear-isomer weapons could be a major advantage to armies possessing them, > leading to the possibility of an arms race. > > AndrZ* Gsponer, director of the Independent Scientific Research Institute in > Geneva, believes that a nation without such weapons would not be able to > fight one that possesses them. As a result, he says, "many countries which > will not have access to these weapons will produce nuclear weapons as a > deterrent", leading to a new cycle of proliferation. > > The Department of Defense notes that there are serious technical issues to > be overcome and that useful applications may be decades away. But its > Militarily Critical Technologies List also says: "We should remember that > less than six years intervened between the first scientific publication > characterising the phenomenon of fission and the first use of a nuclear > weapon in 1945." > > ### > > UK CONTACT - Claire Bowles, New Scientist Press Office, London: > Tel: 44-207-331-2751 or email claire.bowles@rbi.co.uk, New Scientist > US CONTACT - Michelle Soucy, New Scientist Boston Office: > Tel: 617-558-4939 or email michelle.soucy@newscientist.com > > The source of the given news and copyrights belong to the New Scientist > Publishing date: August 19, 2003 > > > Back > >   > > Copyright © 1998-2003  Ivicom > > To add the material   Terms of registration   Terms for placing technology, > inventions, productions & other informations   Price list > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 29 21:38:08 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA08070; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:35:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:35:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:33:27 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: DLP moving mirror TV's In-Reply-To: <3F764FFF.6060503@cox.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <1A8F3B.A.z9B.9fQe_@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52013 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 27 Sep 2003, Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. wrote: > I also looked into the DLP (TI moving mirror technology). The mirrors > are substantially larger > than the wavelength of red light, but this brought up a question: Hey, I bought a handful of the MEMS moving-mirror elements. They were surplus from Electronics Goldmine, listed as QA failures w/no other info. You can see the individual mirrors with a low-power microscope. The connector has too few lines to be XY drive, so there must be lots of active logic on the device (bad news for anyone wanting to use them for hobby purposes.) Ah, here it is. On sale, even (sale price expires tomorrow) http://sales.goldmine-elec.com/prodinfo.asp?prodid=8694 (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 29 21:50:49 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA18196; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:48:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:48:46 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Segway Recall Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 23:10:51 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-reply-to: <007201c386ee$97e48460$3259ccd1@asus> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52014 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From my reading of the trouble reports, it seems like the scooter batteries have a problem at low charge in delivering a surge of current without a corresponding dropping of voltage, sufficient to cause the onboard controller to fail. Fly by wire comes to a highway near you... I agree that a software fix in this case is only a band aid on the problem. Expect the next segway to have a better power supply/regulator. I wonder how badly the range will suffer for the safety cutoff. Perhaps the engineer that designed the power supply part will now finally meet the digital controller guy??? (grin) K. -----Original Message----- From: Mike Carrell [mailto:mikec@snip.net] Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 9:01 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Segway Recall Alexander Hollins wrote: > of course, the Segway runs at what, 5-7 mph? and > since it only keeps you from falling while its on and > moving, This is not quite true. While power is available, it will be stationary and hold a rider upright, even on a slope. The system responds to the driver's lean, forward or backward. If on, it stands still but hunts a bit, as can be seen on a 60 Minutes video a while back. Active power is required to maintain the balance. Batteries fail, it goes limp and will fall over unless propped up by the little stand. I expect that the software patch could be arranged so as to refuse to start if too low, or to slow to a stop as it approaches a cutoff level, so it doesn't suddenly dump the rider. A safety margin must be provided, for if it approaches the cutoff point just as the rider tries to ascend a ramp, there could be an accident. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 30 08:14:10 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA21279; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 08:09:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 08:09:21 -0700 Message-ID: <20030930150908.74530.qmail@web11708.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 08:09:08 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: Hafnium weapons? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <3F78EFA8.F638B2A5@ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <2ouU2C.A.YMF.gyZe_@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52015 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: i dunno. if the dental x ray could, and the particle accelerator couldnt, then perhaps only a low intensity beam can. of course, i love the "scientific method" being used to call it psuedoscience. change the experiment, and determine from that that the original couldnt have worked.... --- Edmund Storms wrote: > I suggest we all hope (pray) as hard as we know how > that this method of > releasing energy is not possible. If a weak X-ray > is able to destabilize the > material, just think what a high-energy cosmic ray > will do. Imagine one pellet > of the material releasing its energy at the > manufacturing site and the > resulting gamma ray destabilizing all other pellets > in the area. This looks > like one more unintended consequence that has just > raised the stakes. > > Ed > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 30 09:04:17 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA05302; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 08:58:36 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 08:58:36 -0700 (PDT) From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <75.19e8cc1d.2cab01ec@aol.com> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 11:57:32 EDT Subject: Re: NASA Goofed To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_75.19e8cc1d.2cab01ec_boundary" X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10712 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52016 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_75.19e8cc1d.2cab01ec_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/29/03 7:41:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, blantont@rtpatlanta.com writes: > I put the Li paper in the mail today. I only ask that you provide your > comments, onlist if you'd like. > > Terry > > thank you --part1_75.19e8cc1d.2cab01ec_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 9/29/03 7:41:01 PM Eastern Daylight= Time, blantont@rtpatlanta.com writes:


I put the Li paper in the mail=20= today.  I only ask that you provide your
comments, onlist if you'd like.

Terry



thank you --part1_75.19e8cc1d.2cab01ec_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 30 09:19:19 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA08667; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:13:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:13:05 -0700 Message-ID: <003b01c3876c$dff06fc0$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: A C-note on resonance Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:06:56 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0038_01C38732.32F16020" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52017 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C38732.32F16020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Many who have an interest in energy-anomalies also have a keen = appreciation for resonance, and a few have a background in music. One = cannot help but be impressed (on a superficial level, at least) by the = power of a simple "tuning fork" to instigate a kind of *sound = chain-reaction* when numerous other tuning forks are present (it is an = surprising demo)... although careful observation tells us there is no = overunity involved in such a demonstration it does show us how easily = one can be fooled by sensory perceptions. A few experimenters have persisted over the years in claiming that = resonance at audible or ultrasound levels may produce OU in electrolytic = water-splitting. There is a long history of this - and several = frequencies are said to produce "magic" resonance in water despite lack = of replication of results. A recent example is offered below, and it is = one that seems a little (but not much) more credible than others. One of Keely's claimed frequencies was 42.8 kHz - but tests show that it = is not OU, in and of itself - although one will get sonoluminescence = there, it is no improvement over any other ultrasound frequency. = Puharich claimed to discover a magic water-splitting frequency of 600 = cycles per second, but this also has never been conclusively = demonstrated despite the ease of setting it up, so what vital parameter = did he not disclose? According to other so-called experts over at = Keelynet, there are two primary frequencies that produce the best = results: 14,372 Hz and 43,430 Hz. The former is claimed to be about "50% = more efficient, but it seems that just about any frequency between 9 KHz = and 143762 KHz works quite well. This is because the nature of the wave = form is rich in harmonics and one of them is bound to be close to one of = the two primary frequencies" =20 ...wow, what a ridiculous cop-out and waste of bandwidth...and total BS. = Many of us can vouch for the fact that DC electrolysis is very hard to = beat. Being in the possession of several frequency and signal generators of = various kinds and capabilities, I have looked for these magic = frequencies in electrolysis over the years - but to little avail. = Well... there are some small resonance effects, but nothing that = portends massive OU, so far. Plus the best results I have gotten have = been in fractional-hertz, not kilohertz, which is indicative of some = kind of electrode cleaning mechanism. And, most importantly, those = frequencies that give some small glimmer of resonance are NOT fixed but = are always a function of electrode and cell spatial geometry. And that = is one thing that makes the resonance investigation interesting, as = negative results are not as convincing or damnable as they otherwise = would be - the merger of art and science, so to speak... This lack of precision in the audible ranges (or should it be called = "geometry dependence") is not that surprising, as even musicians have = never really come to grips with the fact that "middle C" has never been = defined to the satisfaction of all: http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2003/DanielleDaly.shtml "In general, the frequency of middle C is between 256 Hz and 280 Hz." = Each scale [instrument or tuning device] has a slightly different = frequency for middle C, and the frequency has been variously proclaimed = to be 256 Hz, 262 Hz, 256 Hz, 264 Hz, 278.437 Hz, and 280 Hz. Every = expert will have reasons why only his choice is best. The only variable that is constant [by definition] is that to find the = frequency of a note one octave lower, then the frequency is halved, and = this would favor the value of 256, since it is based on a sextuple = redoubling of one, but others like to work backwards, for some arcane = reason, from the A above C... but basically there is no agreement. I bring all of this up because a couple of others on Vortex - Horace and = Keith come to mind - have apparently looked into this audible-resonance = thing as well; and recently on the Watercar forum, a chap is now = claiming once again to see about a three-fold increase in gas output at = a particular frequency using a multi-plate design (like the Brown's Gas = design). Quote from that message: "Later I revisited that range with = 85-87% duty cycle and got much better results. But the frequency that = gave me the best results was 13.8 kHz... During my tests, all resonance = was achieved at 85-87% duty cycle. I randomly tested other duty cycles = without getting resonance." Is that enough incentive to drag out the old sig-gens once again....? = Probably so, as I am starting to set up a new round of "gas cathode" = experiments anyway, but I have a little trouble with his "85-87% duty = cycle range" as that kind of flexibility is not normal, and he didn't = have any success at 90%. However, that could mean several things: that = this fellow has a high-end pulse generator (but I believe it is = home-made)...and who knows, maybe there is something special about = dropping the duty cycle slightly but not far below 90%. Is the = interaction of frequency, the duty cycle and the cell geometry causing = the resonance effect? More likely, it is just another experiment bound = for the "Journal of Irreproducible Results" OTOH... this 13.8 kHz number is, after all, a function of Puharich's = magic=20 frequency... ;-} If only he had only been using 23 electrode plates = instead of 54, it would add another level of intrigue .... By that I = mean that inventors usually don't "tell it all" in a disclosure, (they = should... unless they don't know it all) and apparently Puharich's = demonstration got NASA interested for a while (as actually I first read = about it in a NASA tech journal in the mid '80s), so he was not = obviously fraudulent (or good enough to fool some experts).... who = knows.... Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C38732.32F16020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Many who have an interest in energy-anomalies also have a keen = appreciation=20 for resonance, and a few have a background in music. One cannot = help=20 but be impressed (on a superficial level, at least) by the power of a=20 simple "tuning fork" to instigate a kind of *sound=20 chain-reaction* when numerous other tuning forks are present (it is = an=20 surprising demo)... although careful observation tells us = there is no=20 overunity involved in such a demonstration it does show us how = easily one=20 can be fooled by sensory perceptions.
 
A few experimenters have persisted over the years in claiming that=20 resonance at audible or ultrasound levels may produce OU in electrolytic = water-splitting. There is a long history of this - and several = frequencies=20 are said to produce "magic" resonance in water despite lack=20 of replication of results. A recent example is offered below, and = it is=20 one that seems a little (but not much) more credible than = others.
 
One of Keely's claimed frequencies was 42.8 kHz - but tests show = that it is=20 not OU, in and of itself - although one will get sonoluminescence = there, it=20 is no improvement over any other ultrasound frequency.=20 Puharich claimed to discover a magic water-splitting = frequency of 600=20 cycles per second, but this also has never been conclusively = demonstrated=20 despite the ease of setting it up, so what vital parameter did he not = disclose?=20 According to other so-called experts over at Keelynet, there are two = primary=20 frequencies that produce the best results: 14,372 Hz and 43,430 Hz. The = former=20 is claimed to be about "50% more efficient, but it seems that just about = any=20 frequency between 9 KHz and 143762 KHz works quite well. This is because = the=20 nature of the wave form is rich in harmonics and one of them is bound to = be=20 close to one of the two primary frequencies"   
 
...wow, what a ridiculous cop-out and waste of bandwidth...and = total BS.=20 Many of us can vouch for the fact that DC electrolysis is very hard to=20 beat.
 
Being in the possession of several frequency and signal generators = of=20 various kinds and capabilities, I have looked for these magic = frequencies =20 in electrolysis over the years - but to little avail.  Well... = there=20 are some small resonance effects, but nothing that portends massive = OU, so=20 far. Plus the best results I have gotten have been in fractional-hertz, = not=20 kilohertz, which is indicative of some kind of electrode cleaning=20 mechanism.  And, most importantly, those frequencies that = give=20 some small glimmer of resonance are NOT fixed but are always a function = of=20 electrode and cell spatial geometry. And that is one thing that makes = the=20 resonance investigation interesting, as negative results are not as = convincing or damnable as they otherwise would be - the merger of art = and=20 science, so to speak...
 
This lack of precision in the audible ranges (or should it be = called=20 "geometry dependence") is not that surprising, as even musicians = have never=20 really come to grips with the fact that "middle C" has never been = defined to the=20 satisfaction of all:
http://hy= pertextbook.com/facts/2003/DanielleDaly.shtml
 
"In general, the frequency of middle C is between 256 Hz and=20 280 Hz." Each scale [instrument or tuning device] has a slightly = different=20 frequency for middle C, and the frequency has been variously proclaimed = to be=20 256 Hz, 262 Hz, 256 Hz, 264 Hz, 278.437 Hz, and 280 Hz. = Every=20 expert will have reasons why only his choice is best.
 
The only variable that is constant [by definition] is that  to = find=20 the frequency of a note one octave lower, then the frequency is = halved, and=20 this would favor the value of 256, since it is based on a sextuple = redoubling of=20 one, but others like to work backwards, for some arcane reason, from the = A above=20 C... but basically there is no agreement.
 
I bring all of this up because a couple of others on Vortex - = Horace and=20 Keith come to mind - have apparently looked into this audible-resonance = thing as=20 well; and recently on the Watercar forum, a chap is now claiming once = again to=20 see about a three-fold increase in gas output at a particular frequency = using a=20 multi-plate design (like the Brown's Gas design). Quote from that=20 message: "Later I revisited that range with 85-87% duty cycle = and got=20 much better results. But the frequency  that gave me the best = results was=20 13.8 kHz... During my tests, all  resonance was achieved at 85-87% = duty=20 cycle. I randomly tested other duty cycles without getting=20 resonance."
 
Is that enough incentive to drag out the old sig-gens once = again....?=20 Probably so, as I am starting to set up a new round of "gas cathode" = experiments=20 anyway, but I have a little trouble with his "85-87% duty cycle range"=20 as that kind of flexibility is not normal, and he didn't = have any=20 success at 90%. However, that could mean several things: that this = fellow has a=20 high-end pulse generator (but I believe it is home-made)...and who = knows, maybe=20 there is something special about dropping the duty cycle slightly but = not far=20 below 90%. Is the interaction of frequency, the duty cycle and the cell = geometry=20 causing the resonance effect? More likely, it is just another experiment = bound=20 for the "Journal of Irreproducible Results"
 
OTOH...  this 13.8 kHz number is, after all, a = function=20 of Puharich's magic
frequency... ;-}  If only he had only been using 23 electrode = plates=20 instead of 54, it would add another level of intrigue .... By that = I mean=20 that inventors usually don't "tell it all" in a disclosure, (they = should...=20 unless they don't know it all) and apparently Puharich's demonstration = got NASA=20 interested for a while (as actually I first read about it in a NASA = tech=20 journal in the mid '80s), so he was not obviously fraudulent (or good = enough to=20 fool some experts).... who knows....
 
Jones
------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C38732.32F16020-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 30 10:21:30 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA24287; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:16:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:16:41 -0700 From: John Fields To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: "vortex" Subject: Re: A C-note on resonance Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:18:20 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc. Message-ID: References: <003b01c3876c$dff06fc0$8837fea9@cpq> In-Reply-To: <003b01c3876c$dff06fc0$8837fea9@cpq> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id KAA24039 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52018 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:06:56 -0700, you wrote: This lack of precision in the audible ranges (or should it be called "geometry dependence") is not that surprising, as even musicians have never really come to grips with the fact that "middle C" has never been defined to the satisfaction of all: http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2003/DanielleDaly.shtml "In general, the frequency of middle C is between 256 Hz and 280 Hz." Each scale [instrument or tuning device] has a slightly different frequency for middle C, and the frequency has been variously proclaimed to be 256 Hz, 262 Hz, 256 Hz, 264 Hz, 278.437 Hz, and 280 Hz. Every expert will have reasons why only his choice is best. The only variable that is constant [by definition] is that to find the frequency of a note one octave lower, then the frequency is halved, and this would favor the value of 256, since it is based on a sextuple redoubling of one, but others like to work backwards, for some arcane reason, from the A above C... but basically there is no agreement. --- Actually, with A3 being defined as 440Hz and the frequency of successive semitones being defined as separated by the 12th root of 2, there is no discussion required as to the correct frequency of any of the notes of the scale. In Western music there may be a variance in instruments which are used only for solo performances or are tuned to a different root frequency, for whatever reason, but this variance will apply only to the absolute frequencies, not to the intervals between them. -- John Fields From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 30 11:01:39 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA23641; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:56:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:56:48 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [64.70.24.54] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Puharich Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:56:04 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Sep 2003 17:56:05.0052 (UTC) FILETIME=[1E4C57C0:01C3877C] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52019 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Puharich was a research physician. He found he could resonate a water molecule as a by product of his work with the elctrolysis of blood. He used two frequencies, not just 600 Hz. His Patent is a classic. An excellent example of scientific writing. He built a number of his units and sent them to what was then one of the best labs in the U.S. for such testing. The lab is long since gone, but confirmed his findings. We were the only firm that licensed the Patent, but unfortunately we could not find the funds to develop it into a commercial product. After his death, another physician, a mutual friend, tried to locate his prototypes to send us but could not do so. Mark >From: "Jones Beene" >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >To: "vortex" >Subject: A C-note on resonance >Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:06:56 -0700 > >Many who have an interest in energy-anomalies also have a keen appreciation >for resonance, and a few have a background in music. One cannot help but be >impressed (on a superficial level, at least) by the power of a simple >"tuning fork" to instigate a kind of *sound chain-reaction* when numerous >other tuning forks are present (it is an surprising demo)... although >careful observation tells us there is no overunity involved in such a >demonstration it does show us how easily one can be fooled by sensory >perceptions. > >A few experimenters have persisted over the years in claiming that >resonance at audible or ultrasound levels may produce OU in electrolytic >water-splitting. There is a long history of this - and several frequencies >are said to produce "magic" resonance in water despite lack of replication >of results. A recent example is offered below, and it is one that seems a >little (but not much) more credible than others. > >One of Keely's claimed frequencies was 42.8 kHz - but tests show that it is >not OU, in and of itself - although one will get sonoluminescence there, it >is no improvement over any other ultrasound frequency. Puharich claimed to >discover a magic water-splitting frequency of 600 cycles per second, but >this also has never been conclusively demonstrated despite the ease of >setting it up, so what vital parameter did he not disclose? According to >other so-called experts over at Keelynet, there are two primary frequencies >that produce the best results: 14,372 Hz and 43,430 Hz. The former is >claimed to be about "50% more efficient, but it seems that just about any >frequency between 9 KHz and 143762 KHz works quite well. This is because >the nature of the wave form is rich in harmonics and one of them is bound >to be close to one of the two primary frequencies" > >...wow, what a ridiculous cop-out and waste of bandwidth...and total BS. >Many of us can vouch for the fact that DC electrolysis is very hard to >beat. > >Being in the possession of several frequency and signal generators of >various kinds and capabilities, I have looked for these magic frequencies >in electrolysis over the years - but to little avail. Well... there are >some small resonance effects, but nothing that portends massive OU, so far. >Plus the best results I have gotten have been in fractional-hertz, not >kilohertz, which is indicative of some kind of electrode cleaning >mechanism. And, most importantly, those frequencies that give some small >glimmer of resonance are NOT fixed but are always a function of electrode >and cell spatial geometry. And that is one thing that makes the resonance >investigation interesting, as negative results are not as convincing or >damnable as they otherwise would be - the merger of art and science, so to >speak... > >This lack of precision in the audible ranges (or should it be called >"geometry dependence") is not that surprising, as even musicians have never >really come to grips with the fact that "middle C" has never been defined >to the satisfaction of all: >http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2003/DanielleDaly.shtml > >"In general, the frequency of middle C is between 256 Hz and 280 Hz." Each >scale [instrument or tuning device] has a slightly different frequency for >middle C, and the frequency has been variously proclaimed to be 256 Hz, 262 >Hz, 256 Hz, 264 Hz, 278.437 Hz, and 280 Hz. Every expert will have reasons >why only his choice is best. > >The only variable that is constant [by definition] is that to find the >frequency of a note one octave lower, then the frequency is halved, and >this would favor the value of 256, since it is based on a sextuple >redoubling of one, but others like to work backwards, for some arcane >reason, from the A above C... but basically there is no agreement. > >I bring all of this up because a couple of others on Vortex - Horace and >Keith come to mind - have apparently looked into this audible-resonance >thing as well; and recently on the Watercar forum, a chap is now claiming >once again to see about a three-fold increase in gas output at a particular >frequency using a multi-plate design (like the Brown's Gas design). Quote >from that message: "Later I revisited that range with 85-87% duty cycle and >got much better results. But the frequency that gave me the best results >was 13.8 kHz... During my tests, all resonance was achieved at 85-87% duty >cycle. I randomly tested other duty cycles without getting resonance." > >Is that enough incentive to drag out the old sig-gens once again....? >Probably so, as I am starting to set up a new round of "gas cathode" >experiments anyway, but I have a little trouble with his "85-87% duty cycle >range" as that kind of flexibility is not normal, and he didn't have any >success at 90%. However, that could mean several things: that this fellow >has a high-end pulse generator (but I believe it is home-made)...and who >knows, maybe there is something special about dropping the duty cycle >slightly but not far below 90%. Is the interaction of frequency, the duty >cycle and the cell geometry causing the resonance effect? More likely, it >is just another experiment bound for the "Journal of Irreproducible >Results" > >OTOH... this 13.8 kHz number is, after all, a function of Puharich's magic >frequency... ;-} If only he had only been using 23 electrode plates >instead of 54, it would add another level of intrigue .... By that I mean >that inventors usually don't "tell it all" in a disclosure, (they should... >unless they don't know it all) and apparently Puharich's demonstration got >NASA interested for a while (as actually I first read about it in a NASA >tech journal in the mid '80s), so he was not obviously fraudulent (or good >enough to fool some experts).... who knows.... > >Jones _________________________________________________________________ Help protect your PC. Get a FREE computer virus scan online from McAfee. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 30 11:34:52 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA11272; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 11:29:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 11:29:35 -0700 Message-ID: <3F79CB7B.3080207@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:29:15 -0400 From: Stephen Lawrence User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030827 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: A C-note on resonance References: <003b01c3876c$dff06fc0$8837fea9@cpq> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52020 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Fields wrote: > On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:06:56 -0700, you wrote: > > > This lack of precision in the audible ranges > (or should it be called "geometry dependence") is not that surprising, > as even musicians have never really come to grips with the fact that > "middle C" has never been defined to the satisfaction of all > [ ... ] > > --- > Actually, with A3 being defined as 440Hz and the frequency of successive > semitones being defined as separated by the 12th root of 2, there is no > discussion required as to the correct frequency of any of the notes of > the scale. > [ ... ] Actually, when a professional orchestra tunes up, it uses the A which is dictated by ... the conductor. And it's not always 440. I seem to recall 444 is a somewhat popular choice, with some conductors going even higher. (I'm sure I couldn't hear the difference between 440 and 444, but then I'm not a professional musician, either.) I read somewhere that the "A inflation" has been a problem for some very old violins, which weren't designed to take the extra tension needed in the strings when tuning them higher, and which may be suffering from some material fatigue (uh -- assuming wood fatigues). Of course, the tempering of the scale is something even the most strong-willed conductor can't practically change, so once the A is chosen everything does, indeed, follow. [Hmmm -- this is getting pretty far off topic, isn't it? Sorry, folks...] From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 30 11:46:20 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA05694; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 11:42:17 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 11:42:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <016901c38781$b0fce300$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <003b01c3876c$dff06fc0$8837fea9@cpq> Subject: Re: A C-note on resonance Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 11:35:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id LAA05624 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52021 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi John, > Actually, with A3 being defined as 440Hz and the frequency of successive > semitones being defined as separated by the 12th root of 2, there is no > discussion required as to the correct frequency of any of the notes of > the scale. Well, I won't argue with anyone's opinion on this, except to that many folks would say that some caveat is required because, when you say "defined," then that is the critical human element that separates "experts" from different cultures and backgrounds, no? At any rate, I can't personally tell the difference between 278.437 Hz and 256 Hz but I can see an interesting coincidence in what you have said, relative to other discussions relating to pressure and waves. That is the *12th root.* I'm not real sure how this fits in, but there is a power of 12 involved in a number of "natural transitions", such as vapor pressure of water. It could be totally unrelated, and likely is but FWIW, back in July, I posted this: Vo, There a number of physical properties of water that are outright peculiar, when compared to similar molecules, some of which properties are absolutely essential to biological life. Most of these have been explained fairly well. There are a few, however, that are open to interpretation. Recently, Prof. Chaplin has updated his web-site with the following: http://www.sbu.ac.uk/water/strange.html If anyone has a water-tight explanation for the first chart, the Vapor pressure curves, you will get my genius-of-the-day award and everlasting admiration. As you can see: ice, water and steam seem to obey power relationships of 12, 8 and 4 respectively when looking at Log-Log gradients. And the fit to the data is almost perfectly linear in those ranges. Does this mean that that there are two evenly balanced proto-phases in liquid water that are only fully realized in the other two phases? Comments appreciated? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 30 11:54:01 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA23921; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 11:49:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 11:49:38 -0700 Message-ID: <016f01c38782$c0d83940$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: Puharich Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 11:43:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id LAA23840 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52022 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Mark, > We were the only firm that licensed the Patent, but unfortunately we could > not find the funds to develop it into a commercial product. > After his death, another physician, a mutual friend, tried to locate his > prototypes to send us but could not do so. This is a surprise, and my goodness, you certainly are on top of many of the promising free-energy claims to have come down the road in recent years! Glad to see you aren't discouraged so far as it seems that you have been very close to finding the promised land a number of times before.... Do you have any notes or recollections on the details of any of the Puharich prototypes... such as what was the best repeatable claim for OU, or the approximate dimensions and number of plates in his cell? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 30 12:54:19 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA06076; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:49:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:49:23 -0700 Message-id: Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:51:21 -0400 Subject: Query: Who is-are the "we" Puharich To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: From: "John Schnurer" References: <,> <016f01c38782$c0d83940$8837fea9@cpq> In-Reply-To: <016f01c38782$c0d83940$8837fea9@cpq> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52023 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo., With regard to the message, below, can someone please let me know: Q: Who is the "we" of "..... We were the only firm that licensed the Patent, but unfortunately we could not find the funds to develop it into a commercial product. ...." Q: What is-are the "patent" or patents? Q: What is-are the "product[s]"? I have not been following any threads in vo for a period of time due to work time constraints. Thanks, JH vortex-l@eskimo.com writes: > >Hi Mark, > >> We were the only firm that licensed the Patent, but unfortunately we >could >> not find the funds to develop it into a commercial product. > >> After his death, another physician, a mutual friend, tried to locate >his >> prototypes to send us but could not do so. > >This is a surprise, and my goodness, you certainly are on top of many of >the promising free-energy claims to have come down the road in recent >years! Glad to see you aren't discouraged so far as it seems that you >have been very close to finding the promised land a number of times >before.... > >Do you have any notes or recollections on the details of any of the >Puharich prototypes... such as what was the best repeatable claim for OU, >or the approximate dimensions and number of plates in his cell? > >Jones > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 30 14:36:59 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA19591; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:33:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:33:15 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [192.82.7.54] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Puharich Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:32:31 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Sep 2003 21:32:32.0184 (UTC) FILETIME=[5B3B6B80:01C3879A] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52024 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Jones, The PACE Newsletter dated December, 1981, had an article by Puharich. I can only find the last two pages. It ends with the comment: "Thus it is possible that the acoustic phonons generated by audio side bands of the carrier are able to vibrate particle strutures within the unit water tetrahedron." I also find in our files a paper by Puharich, which if memory serves was delivered at a Conference in Canada, entitled: "Water Decomposition by Means of Alternating Current Electrolysis". If you send me a snail mail address, I'll be glad to send both to you. Mark >From: "Jones Beene" >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >To: >Subject: Re: Puharich >Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 11:43:33 -0700 > > >Hi Mark, > > > We were the only firm that licensed the Patent, but unfortunately we >could > > not find the funds to develop it into a commercial product. > > > After his death, another physician, a mutual friend, tried to locate his > > prototypes to send us but could not do so. > >This is a surprise, and my goodness, you certainly are on top of many of >the promising free-energy claims to have come down the road in recent >years! Glad to see you aren't discouraged so far as it seems that you have >been very close to finding the promised land a number of times before.... > >Do you have any notes or recollections on the details of any of the >Puharich prototypes... such as what was the best repeatable claim for OU, >or the approximate dimensions and number of plates in his cell? > >Jones > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Instant message with integrated webcam using MSN Messenger 6.0. Try it now FREE! http://msnmessenger-download.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 30 14:38:51 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA22100; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:35:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:35:56 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [192.82.7.54] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Puharich Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:22:33 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Sep 2003 21:22:33.0497 (UTC) FILETIME=[F6630890:01C38798] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52025 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John, The we is Magnetic Power Inc. The Patent is U.S. 4,394,230 Mark >From: "John Schnurer" >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >CC: >Subject: Query: Who is-are the "we" Puharich >Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:51:21 -0400 > > > Dear Vo., > > With regard to the message, below, can someone please let me know: > Q: Who is the "we" of > "..... We were the only firm that licensed the Patent, but unfortunately >we could not find the funds to develop it into a commercial product. >...." > > Q: What is-are the "patent" or patents? > Q: What is-are the "product[s]"? > > I have not been following any threads in vo for a period of time due to >work time constraints. > > Thanks, > JH > >vortex-l@eskimo.com writes: > > > >Hi Mark, > > > >> We were the only firm that licensed the Patent, but unfortunately we > >could > >> not find the funds to develop it into a commercial product. > > > >> After his death, another physician, a mutual friend, tried to locate > >his > >> prototypes to send us but could not do so. > > > >This is a surprise, and my goodness, you certainly are on top of many of > >the promising free-energy claims to have come down the road in recent > >years! Glad to see you aren't discouraged so far as it seems that you > >have been very close to finding the promised land a number of times > >before.... > > > >Do you have any notes or recollections on the details of any of the > >Puharich prototypes... such as what was the best repeatable claim for OU, > >or the approximate dimensions and number of plates in his cell? > > > >Jones > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ High-speed Internet access as low as $29.95/month (depending on the local service providers in your area). Click here. https://broadband.msn.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 30 15:07:57 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA13893; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:04:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:04:04 -0700 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:34:43 -0600 From: "R. Wormus" Reply-To: vortex-list To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Puharich Message-ID: <42229890.1064936083@localhost> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52026 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A copy of the Puharich patent is online here: http://www.rexresearch.com/puharich/1puhar.htm Ron --On Tuesday, September 30, 2003 10:56 AM -0700 Mark Goldes = < wrote: >=20 > Puharich was a research physician. He found he could resonate a water > molecule as a by product of his work with the elctrolysis of blood. >=20 > He used two frequencies, not just 600 Hz. His Patent is a classic. An > excellent example of scientific writing. >=20 > He built a number of his units and sent them to what was then one of the > best labs in the U.S. for such testing. The lab is long since gone, but > confirmed his findings. >=20 > We were the only firm that licensed the Patent, but unfortunately we > could not find the funds to develop it into a commercial product. >=20 > After his death, another physician, a mutual friend, tried to locate his > prototypes to send us but could not do so. >=20 > Mark >=20 >=20 >=20 >> From: "Jones Beene" < >> Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> To: "vortex" < >> Subject: A C-note on resonance >> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:06:56 -0700 >>=20 >> Many who have an interest in energy-anomalies also have a keen >> appreciation for resonance, and a few have a background in music. One >> cannot help but be impressed (on a superficial level, at least) by the >> power of a simple "tuning fork" to instigate a kind of *sound >> chain-reaction* when numerous other tuning forks are present (it is an >> surprising demo)... although careful observation tells us there is no >> overunity involved in such a demonstration it does show us how easily >> one can be fooled by sensory perceptions. >>=20 >> A few experimenters have persisted over the years in claiming that=20 >> resonance at audible or ultrasound levels may produce OU in electrolytic = >> water-splitting. There is a long history of this - and several >> frequencies are said to produce "magic" resonance in water despite lack >> of replication of results. A recent example is offered below, and it is >> one that seems a little (but not much) more credible than others. >>=20 >> One of Keely's claimed frequencies was 42.8 kHz - but tests show that it >> is not OU, in and of itself - although one will get sonoluminescence >> there, it is no improvement over any other ultrasound frequency. >> Puharich claimed to discover a magic water-splitting frequency of 600 >> cycles per second, but this also has never been conclusively >> demonstrated despite the ease of setting it up, so what vital parameter >> did he not disclose? According to other so-called experts over at >> Keelynet, there are two primary frequencies that produce the best >> results: 14,372 Hz and 43,430 Hz. The former is claimed to be about >> "50% more efficient, but it seems that just about any frequency between >> 9 KHz and 143762 KHz works quite well. This is because the nature of >> the wave form is rich in harmonics and one of them is bound to be close >> to one of the two primary frequencies" >>=20 >> ...wow, what a ridiculous cop-out and waste of bandwidth...and total BS. = >> Many of us can vouch for the fact that DC electrolysis is very hard to=20 >> beat. >>=20 >> Being in the possession of several frequency and signal generators of=20 >> various kinds and capabilities, I have looked for these magic >> frequencies in electrolysis over the years - but to little avail. >> Well... there are some small resonance effects, but nothing that >> portends massive OU, so far. Plus the best results I have gotten have >> been in fractional-hertz, not kilohertz, which is indicative of some >> kind of electrode cleaning mechanism. And, most importantly, those >> frequencies that give some small glimmer of resonance are NOT fixed but >> are always a function of electrode and cell spatial geometry. And that >> is one thing that makes the resonance investigation interesting, as >> negative results are not as convincing or damnable as they otherwise >> would be - the merger of art and science, so to speak... >>=20 >> This lack of precision in the audible ranges (or should it be called=20 >> "geometry dependence") is not that surprising, as even musicians have >> never really come to grips with the fact that "middle C" has never been >> defined to the satisfaction of all: >> http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2003/DanielleDaly.shtml >>=20 >> "In general, the frequency of middle C is between 256 Hz and 280 Hz." >> Each scale [instrument or tuning device] has a slightly different >> frequency for middle C, and the frequency has been variously proclaimed >> to be 256 Hz, 262 Hz, 256 Hz, 264 Hz, 278.437 Hz, and 280 Hz. Every >> expert will have reasons why only his choice is best. >>=20 >> The only variable that is constant [by definition] is that to find the=20 >> frequency of a note one octave lower, then the frequency is halved, and=20 >> this would favor the value of 256, since it is based on a sextuple=20 >> redoubling of one, but others like to work backwards, for some arcane=20 >> reason, from the A above C... but basically there is no agreement. >>=20 >> I bring all of this up because a couple of others on Vortex - Horace and = >> Keith come to mind - have apparently looked into this audible-resonance=20 >> thing as well; and recently on the Watercar forum, a chap is now >> claiming once again to see about a three-fold increase in gas output at >> a particular frequency using a multi-plate design (like the Brown's Gas >> design). Quote from that message: "Later I revisited that range with >> 85-87% duty cycle and got much better results. But the frequency that >> gave me the best results was 13.8 kHz... During my tests, all >> resonance was achieved at 85-87% duty cycle. I randomly tested other >> duty cycles without getting resonance." >>=20 >> Is that enough incentive to drag out the old sig-gens once again....?=20 >> Probably so, as I am starting to set up a new round of "gas cathode"=20 >> experiments anyway, but I have a little trouble with his "85-87% duty >> cycle range" as that kind of flexibility is not normal, and he didn't >> have any success at 90%. However, that could mean several things: that >> this fellow has a high-end pulse generator (but I believe it is >> home-made)...and who knows, maybe there is something special about >> dropping the duty cycle slightly but not far below 90%. Is the >> interaction of frequency, the duty cycle and the cell geometry causing >> the resonance effect? More likely, it is just another experiment bound >> for the "Journal of Irreproducible Results" >>=20 >> OTOH... this 13.8 kHz number is, after all, a function of Puharich's >> magic frequency... ;-} If only he had only been using 23 electrode >> plates instead of 54, it would add another level of intrigue .... By >> that I mean that inventors usually don't "tell it all" in a disclosure, >> (they should... unless they don't know it all) and apparently >> Puharich's demonstration got NASA interested for a while (as actually I >> first read about it in a NASA tech journal in the mid '80s), so he was >> not obviously fraudulent (or good enough to fool some experts).... who >> knows.... >>=20 >> Jones >=20 > _________________________________________________________________ > Help protect your PC. Get a FREE computer virus scan online from McAfee. > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3D3963 >=20 > =20 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 30 15:27:30 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA31536; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:24:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:24:37 -0700 Message-ID: <01b501c387a0$cae79e80$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: Puharich Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:18:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA31435 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52027 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mark, > I also find in our files a paper by Puharich, which if memory serves was > delivered at a Conference in Canada, entitled: "Water Decomposition by Means > of Alternating Current Electrolysis". This one appears to be online: http://www.rexresearch.com/puharich/1puhar.htm It is curious, however, that the claim is made of only 15% excess (or less), which is not just conservative but illogical and confusing, even if true: "In practical applications, the energy output ...can be parsed between the electrical energy required to power the System as an isothermal closed loop; while the surplus of approximately 15% can be shunted to an engine... that has a work load. Although this energy cost accounting represents an ideal model, it is believed that there is enough return (app. 15%) on the capital energy investment to yield a net energy profit that can be used to do useful work." This despite the unsubstantiated claim that Dr Andrija Puharich reportedly drove his motor home for hundreds of thousands of miles around North America in the 1970s using only water as fuel. At a mountain pass in Mexico, he supposedly even collected snow for water- fuel... Whoa,,, How do you power a motor home if your electrolysis system returns only 15% OU ? ....not that a COP of 1.15 wouldn't be absolutely earth-shaking, if true! Lets say you need at least 50 kwh for a motor-home, so to have that much extra, you would need to generate at least 350 kwh continuous and even with a high eff. ICE that's a megawatt of heat....I don't think so.... Very confusing, Jones Come to think of it, how does a medical doctor (or even an inventor) find the time to drive a motor home for hundreds of thousands of miles around North America in the 1970s using only water as fuel? Why not just drive a few hundred miles to the nearest University or National research Lab and let them confirm it? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 30 15:39:05 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA08414; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:35:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:35:26 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [192.82.7.54] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Puharich Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:34:52 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Sep 2003 22:34:52.0527 (UTC) FILETIME=[10A677F0:01C387A3] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52028 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jones, These may be different papers. I'm leaving and do not have time to check. Do forward an address. The 115% is not surprising to hydrogen folks. Thermal energy is absorbed from ambient air and this figure (or perhaps 120% if memory serves) appears in the Hydrogen report to the Congress published in the 1970s. Rex Research is full of inaccurate information. I've read stuff with major errors many times. Mark >From: "Jones Beene" >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >To: >Subject: Re: Puharich >Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:18:35 -0700 > >Mark, > > > I also find in our files a paper by Puharich, which if memory serves was > > delivered at a Conference in Canada, entitled: "Water Decomposition by >Means > > of Alternating Current Electrolysis". > > >This one appears to be online: >http://www.rexresearch.com/puharich/1puhar.htm > >It is curious, however, that the claim is made of only 15% excess (or >less), which is not just conservative but illogical and confusing, even if >true: > >"In practical applications, the energy output ...can be parsed between the >electrical energy required to power the System as an isothermal closed >loop; while the surplus of approximately 15% can be shunted to an engine... >that has a work load. Although this energy cost accounting represents an >ideal model, it is believed that there is enough return (app. 15%) on the >capital energy investment to yield a net energy profit that can be used to >do useful work." > >This despite the unsubstantiated claim that Dr Andrija Puharich reportedly >drove his motor home for hundreds of thousands of miles around North >America in the 1970s using only water as fuel. At a mountain pass in >Mexico, he supposedly even collected snow for water- fuel... > >Whoa,,, > >How do you power a motor home if your electrolysis system returns only 15% >OU ? >....not that a COP of 1.15 wouldn't be absolutely earth-shaking, if true! > >Lets say you need at least 50 kwh for a motor-home, so to have that much >extra, you would need to generate at least 350 kwh continuous and even with >a high eff. ICE that's a megawatt of heat....I don't think so.... > >Very confusing, > >Jones > >Come to think of it, how does a medical doctor (or even an inventor) find >the time to drive a motor home for hundreds of thousands of miles around >North America in the 1970s using only water as fuel? > >Why not just drive a few hundred miles to the nearest University or >National research Lab and let them confirm it? > _________________________________________________________________ Help protect your PC. Get a FREE computer virus scan online from McAfee. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 30 16:04:34 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA28428; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:59:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:59:36 -0700 Message-ID: <01d101c387a5$aad8e2c0$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: Puharich Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:53:29 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA28317 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52031 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mark, > Jones, > > These may be different papers. I'm leaving and do not have time to check. > Do forward an address. Jones Beene 22 Sycamore Ave. Larkspur, CA 94939 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 30 16:13:35 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA16186; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:44:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:44:59 -0700 From: Yakov Reply-To: rockcast@earthlink.net To: vortex-list , "R. Wormus" Subject: Re: Puharich Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 18:47:11 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <42229890.1064936083@localhost> In-Reply-To: <42229890.1064936083@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309301847.11886.rockcast@earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52029 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tuesday 30 September 2003 17:34, R. Wormus wrote: > A copy of the Puharich patent is online here: > > > http://www.rexresearch.com/puharich/1puhar.htm > > Ron > > --On Tuesday, September 30, 2003 10:56 AM -0700 Mark Goldes < wrote: > > Puharich was a research physician. He found he could resonate a water > > > > molecule as a by product of his work with the elctrolysis of blood. > > > > > > > > He used two frequencies, not just 600 Hz. His Patent is a classic. An > > > > excellent example of scientific writing. > > > > > > > > He built a number of his units and sent them to what was then one of the > > > > best labs in the U.S. for such testing. The lab is long since gone, but > > > > confirmed his findings. > > > > > > > > We were the only firm that licensed the Patent, but unfortunately we > > > > could not find the funds to develop it into a commercial product. > > > > > > > > After his death, another physician, a mutual friend, tried to locate his > > > > prototypes to send us but could not do so. > > > > > > > > Mark > > > >> From: "Jones Beene" < > >> > >> Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > >> > >> To: "vortex" < > >> > >> Subject: A C-note on resonance > >> > >> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:06:56 -0700 > >> > >> > >> > >> Many who have an interest in energy-anomalies also have a keen > >> > >> appreciation for resonance, and a few have a background in music. One > >> > >> cannot help but be impressed (on a superficial level, at least) by the > >> > >> power of a simple "tuning fork" to instigate a kind of *sound > >> > >> chain-reaction* when numerous other tuning forks are present (it is an > >> > >> surprising demo)... although careful observation tells us there is no > >> > >> overunity involved in such a demonstration it does show us how easily > >> > >> one can be fooled by sensory perceptions. > >> > >> > >> > >> A few experimenters have persisted over the years in claiming that > >> > >> resonance at audible or ultrasound levels may produce OU in electrolytic > >> > >> water-splitting. There is a long history of this - and several > >> > >> frequencies are said to produce "magic" resonance in water despite lack > >> > >> of replication of results. A recent example is offered below, and it is > >> > >> one that seems a little (but not much) more credible than others. > >> > >> > >> > >> One of Keely's claimed frequencies was 42.8 kHz - but tests show that it > >> > >> is not OU, in and of itself - although one will get sonoluminescence > >> > >> there, it is no improvement over any other ultrasound frequency. > >> > >> Puharich claimed to discover a magic water-splitting frequency of 600 > >> > >> cycles per second, but this also has never been conclusively > >> > >> demonstrated despite the ease of setting it up, so what vital parameter > >> > >> did he not disclose? According to other so-called experts over at > >> > >> Keelynet, there are two primary frequencies that produce the best > >> > >> results: 14,372 Hz and 43,430 Hz. The former is claimed to be about > >> > >> "50% more efficient, but it seems that just about any frequency between > >> > >> 9 KHz and 143762 KHz works quite well. This is because the nature of > >> > >> the wave form is rich in harmonics and one of them is bound to be close > >> > >> to one of the two primary frequencies" > >> > >> > >> > >> ...wow, what a ridiculous cop-out and waste of bandwidth...and total BS. > >> > >> Many of us can vouch for the fact that DC electrolysis is very hard to > >> > >> beat. > >> > >> > >> > >> Being in the possession of several frequency and signal generators of > >> > >> various kinds and capabilities, I have looked for these magic > >> > >> frequencies in electrolysis over the years - but to little avail. > >> > >> Well... there are some small resonance effects, but nothing that > >> > >> portends massive OU, so far. Plus the best results I have gotten have > >> > >> been in fractional-hertz, not kilohertz, which is indicative of some > >> > >> kind of electrode cleaning mechanism. And, most importantly, those > >> > >> frequencies that give some small glimmer of resonance are NOT fixed but > >> > >> are always a function of electrode and cell spatial geometry. And that > >> > >> is one thing that makes the resonance investigation interesting, as > >> > >> negative results are not as convincing or damnable as they otherwise > >> > >> would be - the merger of art and science, so to speak... > >> > >> > >> > >> This lack of precision in the audible ranges (or should it be called > >> > >> "geometry dependence") is not that surprising, as even musicians have > >> > >> never really come to grips with the fact that "middle C" has never been > >> > >> defined to the satisfaction of all: > >> > >> http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2003/DanielleDaly.shtml > >> > >> > >> > >> "In general, the frequency of middle C is between 256 Hz and 280 Hz." > >> > >> Each scale [instrument or tuning device] has a slightly different > >> > >> frequency for middle C, and the frequency has been variously proclaimed > >> > >> to be 256 Hz, 262 Hz, 256 Hz, 264 Hz, 278.437 Hz, and 280 Hz. Every > >> > >> expert will have reasons why only his choice is best. > >> > >> > >> > >> The only variable that is constant [by definition] is that to find the > >> > >> frequency of a note one octave lower, then the frequency is halved, and > >> > >> this would favor the value of 256, since it is based on a sextuple > >> > >> redoubling of one, but others like to work backwards, for some arcane > >> > >> reason, from the A above C... but basically there is no agreement. > >> > >> > >> > >> I bring all of this up because a couple of others on Vortex - Horace and > >> > >> Keith come to mind - have apparently looked into this audible-resonance > >> > >> thing as well; and recently on the Watercar forum, a chap is now > >> > >> claiming once again to see about a three-fold increase in gas output at > >> > >> a particular frequency using a multi-plate design (like the Brown's Gas > >> > >> design). Quote from that message: "Later I revisited that range with > >> > >> 85-87% duty cycle and got much better results. But the frequency that > >> > >> gave me the best results was 13.8 kHz... During my tests, all > >> > >> resonance was achieved at 85-87% duty cycle. I randomly tested other > >> > >> duty cycles without getting resonance." > >> > >> > >> > >> Is that enough incentive to drag out the old sig-gens once again....? > >> > >> Probably so, as I am starting to set up a new round of "gas cathode" > >> > >> experiments anyway, but I have a little trouble with his "85-87% duty > >> > >> cycle range" as that kind of flexibility is not normal, and he didn't > >> > >> have any success at 90%. However, that could mean several things: that > >> > >> this fellow has a high-end pulse generator (but I believe it is > >> > >> home-made)...and who knows, maybe there is something special about > >> > >> dropping the duty cycle slightly but not far below 90%. Is the > >> > >> interaction of frequency, the duty cycle and the cell geometry causing > >> > >> the resonance effect? More likely, it is just another experiment bound > >> > >> for the "Journal of Irreproducible Results" > >> > >> > >> > >> OTOH... this 13.8 kHz number is, after all, a function of Puharich's > >> > >> magic frequency... ;-} If only he had only been using 23 electrode > >> > >> plates instead of 54, it would add another level of intrigue .... By > >> > >> that I mean that inventors usually don't "tell it all" in a disclosure, > >> > >> (they should... unless they don't know it all) and apparently > >> > >> Puharich's demonstration got NASA interested for a while (as actually I > >> > >> first read about it in a NASA tech journal in the mid '80s), so he was > >> > >> not obviously fraudulent (or good enough to fool some experts).... who > >> > >> knows.... > >> > >> > >> > >> Jones > > > > With all this talk of resonance, that little character with the simple looking second order partial differential equation describing vibrational damping and resonance among other things, it somehow brought to mind an old work acquaintance who ran a vibrational testing lab studying proposed sub assemblies for the Apollo project a very long time ago. He swore that the human rectum had a resonant frequency of about 19 cycles (hurtz... pun is intended ;) ). Now if we could test it on some anal retentives among our population...... how about setting it up in Washington DC.... ....can one just imagine the overflows into the Potomac? Yakov ..................in total jest! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 30 19:21:37 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA26894; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 19:13:09 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 19:13:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [64.70.24.54] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Puharich Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 19:12:28 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Oct 2003 02:12:28.0918 (UTC) FILETIME=[76DDA160:01C387C1] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52032 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jones, The package is en-route. I even located the Congressional testimony I referred to that explains the 120% figure for apparent efficiency concering electrolysis, when electric input is all that is measured. We included those two pages. Mark >From: "Jones Beene" >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >To: >Subject: Re: Puharich >Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:53:29 -0700 > >Mark, > > > Jones, > > > > These may be different papers. I'm leaving and do not have time to >check. > > Do forward an address. > > >Jones Beene >22 Sycamore Ave. >Larkspur, CA 94939 > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Share your photos without swamping your Inbox. Get Hotmail Extra Storage today! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 30 19:58:26 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA24364; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 19:55:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 19:55:33 -0700 Message-ID: <001601c387bf$51335dd0$704245cf@infiniteenergy> From: "Jed Rothwell" To: References: <01d101c387a5$aad8e2c0$8837fea9@cpq> Subject: LENR-CANR quarter-mill push! Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:57:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52033 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Well, folks, total downloads at LENR-CANR stand at 240,012 as of today, and in nine days we reach our first anniversary. You can see it is vitally important we make it to 250,000. A quarter million in the first year! Downloads have been running over a thousand a day, so we are on target, but I do not like leaving things to chance. I have been thinking about some strategies to push the totals over the top, and I'd like to run some ideas up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes, as they say on Madison Avenue. (Supposedly. Circa 1950.) The Evangelical Approach I make a TV appearance dolled up with deep rings under my eyes, tears streaming down my face, voice palpitating with emotion: "Folks, if we don't make a quarter of million downloads the first year, in just nine more days, the Lord is going to call me home! It's my only chance folks . . . please, Save me!" The Spam System I hire a lowlife in Boca Raton, Florida to send out a million e-mail messages saying: "Want a bigger one? Need more Exce$$ heat? Want to see multibody fusion with laser stimulation? Click here to find out how the pros do it." We get a ton of hits -- literally -- before Earthlink cuts off our service. We go out with a bang. The Bargain Basement, or Detergent Ad We list a bunch of old papers on the first page marked with the bullet. It's the same old thing but we call it New and Improved. Hey, lots of CF researchers give the same paper year after year. We Cheat! Months ago someone accused me of downloading papers to make the statistics look good. That was not very plausible, given that I would have had to download several per minute all day long to pump up the numbers enough, but these "skeptics" are notoriously bad at arithmetic. And logic. If I felt like cheating, I would not bother to download stuff; I would lie about the numbers. Anyway, that got me to thinking. I can't cheat that much, but suppose everyone here helps out. Everyone here should download ten or twenty papers. Maybe 100. Come on everyone, you know I can't do it alone, and it's for a good cause. Listen up, gather 'round, I want you to know, I have had a revelation from on high: if you DON'T do it, the Lord may just have to call me home! - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 30 20:40:08 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA01182; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:37:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:37:51 -0700 Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 13:36:27 +1000 From: Robin van Spaandonk Subject: Re: Hafnium weapons? In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: Organization: Improving MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52034 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Eugene F. Mallove's message of Mon, 29 Sep 2003 22:33:18 -0700: Hi, [snip] >Note well, from New Scientist article: "The hafnium explosive could be >extremely powerful. One gram of fully charged hafnium isomer could store >more energy than 50 kilograms of TNT. Miniature missiles could be made with Actually a lot more. The correct figure is nearer to 290 kg. of TNT. >warheads that are far more powerful than existing conventional weapons, >giving massively enhanced firepower to the armed forces using them." Firepower that would be difficult to realise as an explosive, considering that it all comes out as a burst of gamma rays, which are largely going to go right through most adjacent material. [snip] Regards, R. van Spaandonk When you are counting the dead, remember who voted for the man that made it all possible.