From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 1 07:42:36 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i41EgOMU014347; Sat, 1 May 2004 07:42:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i41Efsuh014251; Sat, 1 May 2004 07:41:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 07:41:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20040501103913.01e27438@mail.lenr-canr.org> X-Sender: logs@lenr-canr.org@mail.lenr-canr.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 10:41:49 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Technnewsworld article / LENR-CANR traffic Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <401TwB.A.meD.xc7kAB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54316 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is yet another article about the DoE. This one quotes Ed Storms extensively, and has a remarkably conciliatory remark by Park: http://www.technewsworld.com/perl/story/33299.html Traffic at LENR-CANR.org seems to be back to normal weekend levels. I still do not know what caused yesterday's excitement. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 1 08:00:26 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i41F0BMU019733; Sat, 1 May 2004 08:00:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i41F0Afh019717; Sat, 1 May 2004 08:00:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 08:00:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20040501105805.01e22b70@mail.lenr-canr.org> X-Sender: logs@lenr-canr.org@mail.lenr-canr.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 11:00:07 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Will upload Kasagi papers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54317 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kasagi sent me a mother lode of eight papers in various formats. Some require reformatting. They should be ready early next week. He said: "Unfortunately, the original manuscript of the ICCF8 paper has been lost, probably due to a replacement of my PC." This is another example of why it is so important to preserve digital media. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 1 08:16:30 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i41FGLMU023611; Sat, 1 May 2004 08:16:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i41FGJH2023595; Sat, 1 May 2004 08:16:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 08:16:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4093C017.8030705@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 11:19:51 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Technnewsworld article / LENR-CANR traffic References: <6.0.3.0.2.20040501103913.01e27438@mail.lenr-canr.org> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040501103913.01e27438@mail.lenr-canr.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54318 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Here is yet another article about the DoE. This one quotes Ed Storms > extensively, and has a remarkably conciliatory remark by Park: > > http://www.technewsworld.com/perl/story/33299.html > > Traffic at LENR-CANR.org seems to be back to normal weekend levels. I > still do not know what caused yesterday's excitement. Seems that story hit a lot more markets than we were aware: >http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&edition=us&ie=ascii&scoring=d&q=%22cold+fusion%22&btnG=Search+News< From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 1 10:21:44 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i41HLar5004897; Sat, 1 May 2004 10:21:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i41HLYm5004875; Sat, 1 May 2004 10:21:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 10:21:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20040501102419.00af4c40@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 10:26:21 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Subject: test, please ignore Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_7950141==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <9G2HLC.A.HMB.ey9kAB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54319 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_7950141==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed this is only a test (here) viewed here, Thanks, Steve --=====================_7950141==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" this is only a test  (here)
viewed here,

Thanks,

Steve --=====================_7950141==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 1 10:31:07 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i41HV1MU022386; Sat, 1 May 2004 10:31:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i41HV00k022369; Sat, 1 May 2004 10:31:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 10:31:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004901c42fa2$1a65c0a0$c864a8c0@win98> From: To: Subject: Why NASA scientists are concerned from these traces Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 20:26:55 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54320 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >From press release 15-Apr-2004 (http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/spirit/20040415a.html) "This image was taken by the microscopic imager onboard NASA's Mars Exploration Rover Spirit on sol 99 (April 13, 2004). It is a close-up look at a portion of the rock called "Route 66," which was brushed by the rover's rock abrasion tool. This image intrigues scientists because it looks very different from the microscopic images taken of other brushed rocks at the Gusev Crater location. The surface of Route 66 is very shiny and specularly reflective, which may indicate a glassy surface, or perhaps a very smooth, discontinuous coating. The unique coating appears mottled and may be multi-layered. Other interesting features in this brushed area of Route 66 are the very thin, arc-shaped lines that are visible in the upper left quadrant of the image. An initial hypothesis suggests that these arcs may have been caused by the rock abrasion tool when the instrument made its initial contact with the surface." ---- First, provided large picture within the press release is 834 Kb, where the routine raw image is 311 Kb. Despite I did not noticed dramatic difference between these images, many well focused images suffers from compression ratio, and fine details got lost due to compression artifacts. This mean NASA does not provide full image data to public for private research. Second, why they are concerned from these traces which can be safely interpreted as brush traces on soft material? When the picture in enlarged, additional small arc shaped multitude parallel trace can be seen. These traces implies these are made by the RAT. Maybe scientists thinks the material need be to soft be scratched that way by the brush. I dont know. Detail on larger traces reveal bright and dark lines belong the trace, which can be interpreted as shadow on groves. But they need the light comes from the opposite direction. So these traces could be raised from the surface, instead of groves. This require complicated requirement like plasticity. Another explanation could be transparency of the material. In this scenario, surface material dont need be grooved, but cracked like a glass in order light reflect from the inner surface of the crack. A limited transparency appear a logical answer because I had discovered a thin transparent layer on Mazatzal. Third, it is good to learn that NASA scientists looks into details, but this specific case reveals their narrow window of scientific interest. They interested on these traces, because it could be about the nature of the material they are investigating. But within millimetres about these traces, lies few familiar traces which can be best identified as thread-like features with similar visibility. (Note that some other very thin threadlike features appears elsewhere on that image, but this scene is rather poor of these features, because it is a rock surface and it is cleaned by brush) It appears scientists positively recognized these feature not related to the rock, not a mineral, therefore excluded in their investigation. This is just like a terrestrial geologist perform its job, brush the rock from covering dust, organic materials, what ever they are and solely look to the bare rock. Paradox arise because the top goal of these missions is find some clue about life, how it is emerged in Earth and elsewhere. So, any scientist or institution assigned for extra terrestrial research, whatever their scientific scopes are, should be responsible to pay attention to findings which may lead to evidence of life in the first hand. ( Understand that I dont claim these threadlike features are ultimate evidence of life but just dismissing them, just because having no geological interest to the team is scientifically unacceptable.) So far, there is a no sign from NASA for such a interest, the opposite I observe. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 1 12:32:19 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i41JWFr5005053; Sat, 1 May 2004 12:32:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i41JWDG3005026; Sat, 1 May 2004 12:32:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 12:32:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-22004561193254180@ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Will upload Kasagi papers Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 12:32:54 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d80fb6240af5f8f56062cb19832558a78592764449e275203c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54321 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: April 31, 2004 Vortex, Jed quotes Kasagi as having lost the ICCF-8 manuscript paper. I believe Kasagi's presentations have stood out since earlier than ICCF-8. So his paper probably has been presented orally at the Conference. If so, I have video archived it in sight and sound. I am too lazy to confirm this. If it is desirable as a LENR/CANR resource, my video archives from ICCF-5 to ICCF-9 are open (author willing) copyright free. -ak- uh, I skipped iccf-10 although registered. > [Original Message] > From: Jed Rothwell > To: > Date: 5/1/2004 8:00:11 AM > Subject: Will upload Kasagi papers > > Kasagi sent me a mother lode of eight papers in various formats. Some > require reformatting. They should be ready early next week. > > He said: "Unfortunately, the original manuscript of the ICCF8 paper has > been lost, probably due to a replacement of my PC." This is another example > of why it is so important to preserve digital media. > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 1 15:04:39 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i41M4VMU022547; Sat, 1 May 2004 15:04:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i41M4T2X022526; Sat, 1 May 2004 15:04:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 15:04:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001701c42fc8$51f6a5e0$c864a8c0@win98> From: To: References: <004901c42fa2$1a65c0a0$c864a8c0@win98> Subject: Re: Why NASA scientists are concerned from these traces Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 01:03:57 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54322 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: My intention on this thread/post to criticise the NASA science, not the team who just investigating the glassy surface properties of this rock. Regards, hamdi ucar ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: 01 May 2004 20:26 Subject: Why NASA scientists are concerned from these traces > From press release 15-Apr-2004 > (http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/spirit/20040415a.html) > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 2 12:18:35 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i42JISMU021111; Sun, 2 May 2004 12:18:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i42JIJG4021066; Sun, 2 May 2004 12:18:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 12:18:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20040502191803.57280.qmail@web80411.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 12:18:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Mills, electrolysis, xs-heat, hydrinos To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <006701c42f10$46f09290$487accd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54323 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is an interesting paper Mike, and one is led to suspect (as you may be hinting when you observe that "In one way, Mills is revisiting his starting point, but with significant enhancements...") that there is much here that goes beyond nostalgia, and that there is a definite agenda in going back to electrolysis and a simpler but definitive experiment. Mills has yet to generate a lot of interest in replication among the general scientific community, and the DoE announcement didn't even mention him... did it? ... but this experiment could be an answer to that problem, as it seems tailor-made for ease of replication. Perhaps he is even planning a short production run of this very setup to send out to various universities - and if he isn't planning such, he should consider it (especially if the coffers are drying up!). Also, this thought just struck me as intriguing: > But it is interesting to contemplate how close these > two realms become: the radius of a D(1/7) deutrino. Yes, but going a little bit further, if one were at all interested in "conspiracy theory," one might wonder how the fusion cross-section of Li+D compares with that of Li+D(1/7) or what about D+T compared to T+D(1/7)? I suspect the answer is alarming. Jones Sam Cohen and the other alarmist-proponents of "pure fusion" (i.e. no fissile trigger needed) may have something a little closer to home to worry about than that red stuff.... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 2 20:12:44 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i433CcU5019301; Sun, 2 May 2004 20:12:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i433CP2Y019230; Sun, 2 May 2004 20:12:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 20:12:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <63f0ccdd-dae0-4377-9c78-aa9a9d98a137> Message-ID: <000501c430bc$74a51fa0$af5bccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20040502191803.57280.qmail@web80411.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Mills, electrolysis, xs-heat, hydrinos Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 23:12:19 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54324 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones wrote: > This is an interesting paper Mike, and one is led to > suspect (as you may be hinting when you observe that > "In one way, Mills is revisiting his starting point, > but with significant enhancements...") that there is > much here that goes beyond nostalgia, and that there > is a definite agenda in going back to electrolysis and > a simpler but definitive experiment. I rather thought this would get Jones' attention :-). > > Mills has yet to generate a lot of interest in > replication among the general scientific community, > and the DoE announcement didn't even mention him... > did it? ... but this experiment could be an answer to > that problem, as it seems tailor-made for ease of > replication. Perhaps he is even planning a short > production run of this very setup to send out to > various universities - and if he isn't planning such, > he should consider it (especially if the coffers are > drying up!). A private communication from oneof the investors at the last stockholder's meeting indicated that there is ample money and the building is off the market. I'm not privy to Mills' strategy, but the indications are that Stirling engines are still in the picture, despite the haydrogen-generating plant outlined at the ACS meeting. Obviously, there are so many applications possible that there is something to entice many audiences. > > Also, this thought just struck me as intriguing: > > > But it is interesting to contemplate how close these > > two realms become: the radius of a D(1/7) deutrino. > > Yes, but going a little bit further, if one were at > all interested in "conspiracy theory," one might > wonder how the fusion cross-section of Li+D compares > with that of Li+D(1/7) or what about D+T compared to > T+D(1/7)? > > I suspect the answer is alarming. You might also want to speculated about the notions of Takahashi concerning condensates of H & D and electrons which form a neutral package of protons or deuterons which are able to sneak past the Coulomb barrier within grabbing distance of the strong force. There is a new society, born at the Asti CF concference, devoted to study of this. The paper is available at lenr-canr.org. The Takahasi model is a way of understanding the Iwamura transmutation experiment. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 3 06:51:57 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i43DppSA004782; Mon, 3 May 2004 06:51:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i43DpnOm004766; Mon, 3 May 2004 06:51:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 06:51:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20040503094941.00b23620@mail.lenr-canr.org> X-Sender: logs@lenr-canr.org@mail.lenr-canr.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 09:51:41 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Will upload Kasagi papers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54325 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Akira Kawasaki writes: > So his paper probably has been presented orally at the Conference. If so, I > have video archived it in sight and sound. The paper is in the printed proceedings. I can scan and OCR it. The figures are a problem, but they may be reproduced in other papers. The first one is, anyway. This paper may be very similar to one of the others he sent, in which case I may not bother to prepare it. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 3 07:39:02 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i43EcrSA016925; Mon, 3 May 2004 07:38:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i43EcqhK016910; Mon, 3 May 2004 07:38:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 07:38:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <8a7c32df-73f9-40ba-af47-86e5385ee5ef> Message-ID: <001001c4311c$5272b130$5a5bccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20040502191803.57280.qmail@web80411.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Mills, electrolysis, xs-heat, hydrinos Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 10:38:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54326 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A second footnote to Jones' response: > This is an interesting paper Mike, and one is led to > suspect (as you may be hinting when you observe that > "In one way, Mills is revisiting his starting point, > but with significant enhancements...") that there is > much here that goes beyond nostalgia, and that there > is a definite agenda in going back to electrolysis and > a simpler but definitive experiment. I see an agenda, but not what Jones sees. Another recent paper at BLP is: EXACT CLASSICAL QUANTUM MECHANICAL SOLUTIONS FOR ONE- THROUGH TWENTY-ELECTRON ATOMS. This arcane title conceals a master-stroke. Mills has been under attack by theorists who believe they have demolished his CQM theoretical structure and thereby reduced the extensive experimental results to errors or coincidence. What Mills has done is to used his theoretical structure to calculate, with consistent mathematics, a set of critical parameters for the first 20 atoms of the periodic table. The match between his calculations and those measured are astounding. Not just one happy coincidence, but 20 hits out of 20 tries. This cannot be ignored or brushed off by any honest examination. Now he lays claim again to his first experiment, demonstrating that the BLP reaction did occur, producing hydrinos. At some point these results will emerge in a court battle to establish his fundamental patent position, if not a speaking invitation in Stockholm and a long trail of citations in history books. Mike Carrell > > Mills has yet to generate a lot of interest in > replication among the general scientific community, > and the DoE announcement didn't even mention him... > did it? ... but this experiment could be an answer to > that problem, as it seems tailor-made for ease of > replication. Perhaps he is even planning a short > production run of this very setup to send out to > various universities - and if he isn't planning such, > he should consider it (especially if the coffers are > drying up!). > > Also, this thought just struck me as intriguing: > > > But it is interesting to contemplate how close these > > two realms become: the radius of a D(1/7) deutrino. > > Yes, but going a little bit further, if one were at > all interested in "conspiracy theory," one might > wonder how the fusion cross-section of Li+D compares > with that of Li+D(1/7) or what about D+T compared to > T+D(1/7)? > > I suspect the answer is alarming. > > Jones > > Sam Cohen and the other alarmist-proponents of "pure > fusion" (i.e. no fissile trigger needed) may have > something a little closer to home to worry about than > that red stuff.... > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 3 08:43:25 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i43FhItc019613; Mon, 3 May 2004 08:43:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i43Fh7pF019568; Mon, 3 May 2004 08:43:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 08:43:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20040503114258.01d54c08@mail.lenr-canr.org> X-Sender: logs@lenr-canr.org@mail.lenr-canr.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 11:43:57 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Kasagi and Yuki papers uploaded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54327 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See the top four papers in the handy new index: http://lenr-canr.org/FilesByDate.htm Three or four more coming soon. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 3 09:38:57 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i43Gcf1T022113; Mon, 3 May 2004 09:38:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i43GcOM2022005; Mon, 3 May 2004 09:38:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 09:38:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000f01c4312c$9fe19660$8837fea9@pacbell.net> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" References: <20040502191803.57280.qmail@web80411.mail.yahoo.com> <001001c4311c$5272b130$5a5bccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Subject: Re: Mills, electrolysis, xs-heat, hydrinos Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 09:35:19 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id i43Gc91T021943 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54328 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: One more (hopefully) final, but sodden speculation on the hollow-cathode BLP experiment that Mike has been referring to, and its relevance to deuterium "in the big picture." By "big" I am referring to the likelihood that a favorable 'geopolitical military strategy' is really "bigger" to our national interests than even the goal of an assured petrochemical supply, which is normally assumed to be our primary agenda in the international arena. Remember that this simple experiment is designed to manufacture, collect and enrich hydrinos, and the greater the degree of shrinkage, the greater they will cross the thin Ni cathode barrier. When applied to deuterium, we can envision a low power, low tech way to produce and refine certain D species, such as the D(1/7). This particular species, D(1/7) has actually been collected and tested and proven through this testing (assuming Mills has not fabricated this story) to be a "real" shrunken atom with a diameter that is presumably 1/7 of the normal ~1 angstrom diameter of a ground state deuterium - and possessing extremely high ionization potential. One never really knows how deep the layers of hidden truth may go in these situations. We do know for sure that Mills is a smart guy, and that nothing I have said or will say has not crossed his event-horizon before now. We also know our ingrained bureaucracy is much slower to get motivated. Is that Mills' real agenda, then, to 'speed up' the bureaucracy with an implied threat? If so, he may be treading slippery slope. BTW, for some of his followers, Mills is emerging as the preeminent scientific genius of this century, a combined Einstein-Edison-Feynman rolled into one. No kidding. To others, such as P. Zimmerman, he is just a pretender to the throne. OTOH, p.z. may be trying to protect his own 'back side' as he has invested most of his own relative net-worth and packaged that into his anti-Mills rhetoric. Kind of reminds one of Mozart and Salieri, and other past stand-offs among geniuses.... but nowadays, few would even remember Salieri if it were not for a fine movie (at fact that is assuredly discomforting to Mills' detractors). But I was thinking in particular about the recent remarks of yesterday in the context of a larger geopolitical picture : "Yes, but going a little bit further, if one were at all interested in "conspiracy theory," one might wonder how the fusion cross-section of Li+D compares with that of Li+D(1/7) or what about D+T compared to T+D(1/7)?... I suspect the answer is alarming." "Sam Cohen and the other alarmist-proponents of "pure fusion" (i.e. a bomb with no fissile trigger needed) may have something a little closer to home to worry about than that red stuff...." Now Sam Cohen may or not be "officially ignored", and a "pure fusion weapon" may be only someone's "pipe dream" up to now. By now, I mean pre-Mills... But it is clear to me, that if Mills has not fabricated the results of this experiment, and if the production of D(1/7) can happen with ease in the experiment that he has just published, then our military may be making a serious mistake by not taking notice of this, and not classifying this research now, before some terrorist group gets hold of a few hundred bucks worth of lab equipment and starts making D(1/7)... Is this being overly alarmist? I don't think so. I believe that people like Sam Cohen are indeed overly alarmist because they hypothesize a mysterious high explosive (red mercury) that most likely does NOT exist and is a total fiction, probably propagated by the Russian Mafia in order to capitalize on our fears of previous Russian military advances - of which there are some, but probably NOT this particular one. However, when it comes to Mills and D(1/7) I see a totally different scenario emerging, and one that has even more frightening *real* implications. If D(1/7) can be manufactured in gram quantities (and why not?), it only takes some fool with a computer to realize that it can be fused with relative ease, using only a properly designed spherical implosion device with available explosives like TNT... and that no fission trigger would be required (and no red mercury either). So it would be a big mistake to write this experiment off as some kind of measurement error or alchemical quackery, such as skeptics like Zimmerman have implied... unless, of course, they are absolutely sure, certain beyond any reasonable doubt... that these results are only measurement error or a planned con-game. And as to the issue of what constitutes 'reasonable' doubt...Remember the type of early warning that we had before 9/11? It wasn't much, but it was actionable to the degree that we should have been flight school enrollment, and that would have sent up many more red flags... so, do we want to be that blase (or even negligent) again, when the stakes could be much, much larger? BTW, recently pz made this anecdotal comment to the hydrino forum: "I'm at the APS meeting in Denver, at which NIAC (NASA Inst. for Adv. Concepts) has an exhibit. I chatted them up about the BlackLight rocket. They told me - it had been a mistake to fund it, and that it did not get a phase 2 contract. Part of the problem was that Rowan U promised a totally independent look at the phenomenology, but as we all know they went to BLP and used their hardware and had their people involved. Not exactly the promised independence. " Well, this may or may not be true (i.e. that it was a mistake for NASA to fund this work and that the work was so obviously in error that they stopped the funding). It could be a clever cover story, relayed by a patsy (unbeknownst, as he would never willingly pass-on disinformation, would he?). I doubt the story could even be true unless Mills is truly more con-man than genius. Who knows - many of us have been following Mills for 14 years and I for one am still not sure after all this time... not all really sure one way or the other ( I would put the odds at: genius 60%, self-deceived con-man 40%), so what is really going on, in the "big picture" i.e. the geopolitical picture ? I hate to quip that, "time will tell"... at the risk of having some future critic... let's say some future critic of the new Kerry administration dredge up this post from the vortex archives in 2006, when lower Manhattan lies in the smoldering rubble form a terrorist "pure fusion" suitcase bomb... one that was constructed using a few grams of D(1/7)... Wow... sodden thought indeed. Maybe I should just start writing the screen play now... wonder if Mel Gibson has upcoming film commitments.... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 3 10:53:11 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i43Hqx1T017596; Mon, 3 May 2004 10:52:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i43HqcLm017492; Mon, 3 May 2004 10:52:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 10:52:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <409686C7.70200@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 13:52:07 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [OT] Patent Shark Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <3ikNZC.A.QRE.mbolAB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54329 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Recently, a client was upset because a major telephone company refused to bid on a request for an Interactive Voice Response Unit (that computer/telephone interface we all use to check our account balances). Here is the reason why: http://www.forbes.com/asap/2002/0624/065_print.html While CF researchers can't get patents on valid inventions, this parasite plans to make $2B on technology he did not invent. Many large companies, including AT&T are paying this guy. http://www.thedigest.com/more/122/122-51.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 4 18:56:05 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i451twZb014471; Tue, 4 May 2004 18:55:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i451tm5F014411; Tue, 4 May 2004 18:55:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 18:55:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40984AC6.1060206@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 22:00:38 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mills, electrolysis, xs-heat, hydrinos References: <20040502191803.57280.qmail@web80411.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20040502191803.57280.qmail@web80411.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54330 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >I suspect the answer is alarming. > What is truly alarming is that Shell has had to restate their oil reserves twice in two months. I enjoyed the book "Red Mercury" because it was released just prior to the Atlanta Olympics in '96. The prospect that hydrinos [regardless of Randall's GUT] open a path to a pure fusion weapon creates a horrid nightmare. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 4 19:50:25 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i452oJJ7004167; Tue, 4 May 2004 19:50:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i452oFCv004143; Tue, 4 May 2004 19:50:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 19:50:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mills, electrolysis, xs-heat, hydrinos Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 23:18:29 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <20040502191803.57280.qmail@web80411.mail.yahoo.com> <40984AC6.1060206@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: <40984AC6.1060206@rtpatlanta.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200405042318.29649.rockcast@earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54331 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tuesday 04 May 2004 22:00, Terry Blanton wrote: > Jones Beene wrote: > >I suspect the answer is alarming. > > What is truly alarming is that Shell has had to restate their oil > reserves twice in two months. > > I enjoyed the book "Red Mercury" because it was released just prior to > the Atlanta Olympics in '96. > > The prospect that hydrinos [regardless of Randall's GUT] open a path to > a pure fusion weapon creates a horrid nightmare. Nightmare eh, now what kind of ratbag is that? Why not look on the bright side of it. Think of what it could do as a rocket fuel. All of our needs for exploration would be at hand. We could design a true space shuttle. You know...single stage to space.. as often as your want within reason. You could also power intrasystem ships with it. The solar system would be ours! What real human would be against that......unless they were an alien agent?! Could be the Chinese are thinking of the same thing when they said they would build a new space transport propulsion system in the near future. So there you have it! If we don't build it first, THEY WILL! Now let's see...build 300 of these in caves in Sinkiang Province. Build them large enough to hold 100 supernukes each. Orbit them at 30000 miles all in the space of an hour....and voila! instant world domination. We all learn Mandarin now! Ding How! Yours in semi facetiousness, Standing Bear From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 4 20:20:18 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i453K8J7012201; Tue, 4 May 2004 20:20:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i453K68D012175; Tue, 4 May 2004 20:20:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 20:20:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: Cc: Subject: The promising future of Power Chips. A boon for CF? Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 22:13:28 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <40984AC6.1060206@rtpatlanta.com> Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54332 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In the valiant pursuit of closing the mythical "CF" loop: I know I've mentioned this before, but There is an interesting company, Borealis (http://www.borealis.gi) - and especially one of its subsidiaries, a start-up company, POWER CHIPS (TM) (http://www.powerchips.gi) which is in the preliminary stages of manufacturing a "power chip" they claim is capable of delivering up to 70-80% of the maximum (Carnot) theoretical efficiency for heat pumps. It is my understanding that obtaining 70-80% efficiency would far exceed even what the best sterling engine configuration could deliver. PowerChips may now be closer to realizing their goal than ever before. See the following news article dated April 19, 2004: (http://www.coolchips.gi/press/pr_040419.shtml). The title is: "PIONEER PATENT" ISSUED FOR EFFICIENT NANOSCALE ENERGY CONVERSION. The patent describes "...a description of the techniques used to create..." the nano-precision chips. The patent describes "...how to create the tiny gap which allows efficient electron flow from one vacuum diode to the other and maintain it even while the device heats up or is subject to sudden shocks." Piezo elements are used to continuously fine-tune the nano scaled gaps necessary to extract useable electricity based on the heat differential between the two gaps. The article goes on to now claim a 90% or better success rate using techniques similar to those described in their patent. What really piqued my interest was the following claim, "... a prototype production installation has been acquired which, once packaging solutions have been completed and production has commenced, can meet a substantial part of the initial military and aerospace demand for Cool Chips." (FYI, Cool Chips, is another subsidiary under the Borealis umbrella that uses the same chips, except in reverse order to generate a more efficient refrigeration system which uses no moving parts, is smaller and lighter, and consumes less power than conventional systems. It's my understanding that "Cool" chips are essentially interchangeable with "Power" chips. Of course this news article is PR. Never the less, it sounds to me as if Power Chips and Cool Chips have overcome the most formidable engineering problems associated with manufacturing nano-precision devices. It now seems to be more a matter of carefully ramping up the production process and learning how best to manufacture their revolutionary chip configurations within a business plan that allows them to generate sufficient profit and ultimately expanding their operations into other lucrative markets. At present they are shrewdly going after the military and aerospace industries where such organizations are happy to pay premiums. One assumes that as the manufacturing process ramps up prices will start dropping allowing consumer related products to ultimately benefit from the nanotechnology as well. I wonder if there might be organizations currently working on "CF" reactor prototypes that could benefit by taking advantage of the greater efficiencies of Power Chip technology. The simplicity of these devices is elegant: All one needs to extract power is a sufficient heat differential between the two diode surfaces along with sufficient stacked quantities. I would hope that this message might possibly stir the interest of a few in key "CF" positions to investigate. Perhaps if they were to ask "pretty please!" they could get their hands on a few of these chips for evaluation purposes. Steven Vincent Johnson www.orionworks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 5 01:01:18 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4581DmK030442; Wed, 5 May 2004 01:01:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4580u5J030369; Wed, 5 May 2004 01:00:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 01:00:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20040505085822.00695628@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 08:58:22 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Cold Fusion covered in MIT Technology Review! Resent-Message-ID: <7n8uPC.A.daH.48JmAB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54333 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Last night I happened to see a programme on tornadoes. Fortunately we don't get many in England so I was not familiar with the phenomena of the multiple-vortex variety. I googled to find out more and came up with this interesting excerpt among others. ========================================== Multiple-vortex tornadoes have, as their name suggests, two or more circulations (vortices)orbiting about each other or about a common center. The public often describes multiple-vortex tornadoes as "several tornadoes which join together to form one large tornado." Most of the deadly, destructive tornadoes the United States has experienced in the past (Oelwein, Iowa, 1968; Xenia, Ohio, 1974; Wichita Falls, Texas, 1979; Albion, Pennsylvania, 1985, to name a few) were multiple-vortex tornadoes. If you observe a multiple-vortex tornado, relay that fact to your dispatcher/controller, and stay clear! ========================================== This all brought to mind that fascinating picture on the front of Mizuno's book translated by Jed. http://tinyurl.com/2ao6b A multiple-vortex Beta-atmosphere tornado? They do say that seeing is believing - but maybe the concept of materials being held together by external pressures and internal tensions simply being negations is a Gestalt shift to far. ;-) Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 5 06:37:16 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i45DbAZK007897; Wed, 5 May 2004 06:37:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i45Db5gb007853; Wed, 5 May 2004 06:37:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 06:37:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001801c43299$f0c2cd60$9c81b341@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Van De Graaff Quality? Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 07:10:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9401d702fd71f81c2172c0533b4f873d4c4350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54334 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Would this be a reasonable price for a Van de Graaff? http://www.hobbytron.net/Van-DeGraff-Generator-Assembled.html This outfit is located ~ 60 miles south of Salt Lake City Utah. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 5 06:59:07 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i45DwxCd019016; Wed, 5 May 2004 06:58:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i45Dwrh7018947; Wed, 5 May 2004 06:58:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 06:58:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4098F314.3080808@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 09:58:44 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Van De Graaff Quality? References: <001801c43299$f0c2cd60$9c81b341@computer> In-Reply-To: <001801c43299$f0c2cd60$9c81b341@computer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54335 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: >Would this be a reasonable price for a Van de Graaff? > >http://www.hobbytron.net/Van-DeGraff-Generator-Assembled.html > >This outfit is located ~ 60 miles south of Salt Lake City Utah. > Compared to these http://scientificsonline.com/search.asp?t=ss&ss=van+de+graf&x=0&y=0 from Edmund Scientifics . . . definately! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 5 07:01:13 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i45E17ZK014433; Wed, 5 May 2004 07:01:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i45E16R5014410; Wed, 5 May 2004 07:01:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 07:01:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002e01c432a1$1793c460$9c81b341@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Van De Graaff Quality? Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 08:01:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c7d2a48433ca486b66eae17881a4ebca350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54336 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 7:10 AM Subject: Re: Van De Graaff Quality? > Would this be a reasonable price for a Van de Graaff? > > http://www.hobbytron.net/Van-DeGraff-Generator-Assembled.html > > This outfit is located ~ 60 miles south of Salt Lake City Utah. > > Regards, > > Frederick > T.T. Brown type experiment w.o. corona? http://www.dsifluids.com/a1.html http://lubricants.conocophillips.com/phillips_techdata/industrial/Transformer%20Oil.pd f Oil partially-filled can (~ 10 inches Diameter) with styrofoam-supported 8 inch dia negative plate inside sitting on grounded ( + 200 Kv) digital scale O--------------------O -200 Kv | | | | | | | ___|__ | | |_______| ___|___ | | | Digital scale |______| Van de Graaff Scale and Van de graaff at earth ground ( + 200 kv) What a mess. :-) FJS From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 5 07:18:39 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i45EIYZK019002; Wed, 5 May 2004 07:18:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i45EIXe2018987; Wed, 5 May 2004 07:18:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 07:18:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: Shell, reserves (==Enron) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 21:17:40 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <40984AC6.1060206@rtpatlanta.com> Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54337 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well, get used to it. In the business reserves are simply bargaining chips for the negotiation table, be that gov't or industry. I know three large gas structures that have been 'delisted' in the interest of minimizing taxes and partnership costs. Those are only the ones I know personally about, there are a lot more under the carpet. The biggest tendency is not, as Shell did, to overestimate, but rather to underestimate. That is possibly the biggest reason you see publicity about the 'end of oil' without attendant exploration programs: why explore when you know you have moe than the market knows... For me, I stake the future on LENR - the personalities in the energy industry need a severe purge anyway. cheers from the laboratory > From: Terry Blanton [mailto:blantont@rtpatlanta.com] > Sent: Wednesday, 2004 May 05 09:01 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Mills, electrolysis, xs-heat, hydrinos > > Jones Beene wrote: > > >I suspect the answer is alarming. > > > > What is truly alarming is that Shell has had to restate their oil > reserves twice in two months. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 5 07:53:18 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i45ErCZK031599; Wed, 5 May 2004 07:53:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i45ErBuW031532; Wed, 5 May 2004 07:53:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 07:53:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: "Johnson, Steven" To: "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" Cc: "Johnson, Steven" Subject: RE: The promising future of Power Chips. A boon for CF? Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 09:54:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-PMX-Version: 4.6.0.97784, Antispam-Core: 4.6.0.97340, Antispam-Data: 2004.5.4.99782 X-PerlMx-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIIII, Probability=8%, Report='__IMS_MSGID 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __SANE_MSGID 0, __TO_MALFORMED_2 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __ANY_IMS_MUA 0, EXCHANGE_SERVER 0, __HAS_X_MAILER 0, __IMS_MUA 0, __EVITE_CTYPE 0, __CTYPE_CHARSET_QUOTED 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __CT 0, __MIME_TEXT_ONLY 0' Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54338 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It was recently brought to my attention that Borealis may have competition. An individual by the name of "Antony" placed the following message in the Hydrino discussion group: * * * * * * * * * * The powerchip [by Borealis] may have a competitor in RTI International which has developed its own power conversion thermoelectric technology funded by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) and the Office of Naval Research. The link is here: http://www.rti.org/page.cfm?nav=86&objectid=9D41B022-9209-4974-BF209DA85644C 33F An extract from the article: "Superlattice thermoelectric devices are solid state and can be used for power conversion, heating, cooling, and precise temperature control. The devices currently being developed by RTI can range in size from 1/40th of a U.S. penny to 3 inches on a side. "With experimental lab-scale devices having already exceeded state-of-the-art bulk devices in power-conversion efficiency, power-conversion applications have become a priority. These superlattice devices are also catching up in cooling applications in terms of efficiency at the device level; the devices have already demonstrated advantages such as smaller footprint, larger cooling-power density compared to commercial devices for electronics cooling." Like powerchips it's a work in progress (for some years now) but there's nothing like healthy competition to drive innovation. Antony * * * * * * * * * * It would be interesting to find out if RTI International came up with a completly different procedure of producing thermoelectric devices. It would be a good thing to discover that there is more than one way to skin the cat. If not, we may be in store for some interesting court battles. Steven Vincent Johnson www.orionworks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 5 08:02:14 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i45F1tCd007792; Wed, 5 May 2004 08:01:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i45F1gxL007716; Wed, 5 May 2004 08:01:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 08:01:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: Strange List Attachments Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 21:59:37 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54339 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Strange .txt files are now being added to the list, or is it just on my end? They are only text files to be sure, not viruses I see, but it sure is strange, as if something has begun to change on the Vortex serve perhaps. Is anyone else seeing this ? I see Fred and Terry posted the first two 'text' attachments, but I doubt they actually sent their messages like that. weird science From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 5 08:13:11 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i45FD0Cd013850; Wed, 5 May 2004 08:13:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i45FCxbX013835; Wed, 5 May 2004 08:12:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 08:12:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Originating-IP: [4.243.137.247] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes@msn.com From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: steven.johnson@dot.state.wi.us Subject: RE: Thermionic Power Chips and Thermoelectric devices Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 08:12:47 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 May 2004 15:12:48.0139 (UTC) FILETIME=[6CEF8DB0:01C432B3] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54340 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Borealis uses thermionic conversion. RTI is developing advanced thermoelectric devices. These are entirely different technologies. Both accomplish the same end. Both have had low efficiencies for decades. Borealis has found a way to dramatically improve conversion efficiency. Parallel efforts are under way for thermoelectric devices, but I suspect the inherently low cost of Borealis products will carve out larger market share over time. >From: "Johnson, Steven" >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >To: "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" >CC: "Johnson, Steven" >Subject: RE: The promising future of Power Chips. A boon for CF? >Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 09:54:18 -0500 > >It was recently brought to my attention that Borealis may have competition. >An individual by the name of "Antony" placed the following message in the >Hydrino discussion group: > >* * * * * * * * * * > >The powerchip [by Borealis] may have a competitor in RTI International >which >has developed its own power conversion thermoelectric technology funded by >the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) and the Office of >Naval Research. > >The link is here: > >http://www.rti.org/page.cfm?nav=86&objectid=9D41B022-9209-4974-BF209DA85644C >33F > >An extract from the article: > >"Superlattice thermoelectric devices are solid state and can be used for >power conversion, heating, cooling, and precise temperature control. The >devices currently being developed by RTI can range in size from 1/40th of a >U.S. penny to 3 inches on a side. > >"With experimental lab-scale devices having already exceeded >state-of-the-art bulk devices in power-conversion efficiency, >power-conversion applications have become a priority. These superlattice >devices are also catching up in cooling applications in terms of efficiency >at the device level; the devices have already demonstrated advantages such >as smaller footprint, larger cooling-power density compared to commercial >devices for electronics cooling." > >Like powerchips it's a work in progress (for some years now) but there's >nothing like healthy competition to drive innovation. > >Antony > >* * * * * * * * * * > >It would be interesting to find out if RTI International came up with a >completly different procedure of producing thermoelectric devices. It would >be a good thing to discover that there is more than one way to skin the >cat. > > >If not, we may be in store for some interesting court battles. > >Steven Vincent Johnson >www.orionworks.com > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 5 13:16:20 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i45KGFm1026867; Wed, 5 May 2004 13:16:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i45KGCEg026841; Wed, 5 May 2004 13:16:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 13:16:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 13:17:30 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Society for Sci. Expl. Annual Meeting, May 23, VEGAS Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id i45KGAm1026820 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54341 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Check out the meeting schedule. Lots of VERY interesting talks! 23rd Annual SSE Meeting, May 20–22, Las Vegas, NV http://www.scientificexploration.org/meetings/23rd.html Meeting: $140 Hotel: $79/nite Jeeze, there MUST be some cheaper hotels. Let the mob fund your meeting attendence. Doesn't dey give big discounts if you stay in a casino? They used to fly you down there for almost free (like $69 or something silly.) Cheap hotels: El Cortez, Golden Palm, Rodeway Inn Google search on Las Vegas getaway http://www.google.com/search?sq=%22las+vegas+getaway%22 The SSE *still* doesn't have any members' forum. Maybe we should volunteer vortex-L? Fill this place with stuffy academicians. Well, at least *maverick* stuffy academicians... ((((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( (o) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty http://staff.washington.edu/wbeaty/ Research Engineer UW Chem Dept, Bagley Hall RM74 beaty@chem.washington.edu Box 351700, Seattle, WA 98195-1700 ph:206-543-6195 fax:206-685-8665 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 5 20:43:24 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i463hKm1021076; Wed, 5 May 2004 20:43:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i463hIH1021050; Wed, 5 May 2004 20:43:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 20:43:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4099B78F.5050905@eol.ca> Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 23:57:03 -0400 From: Dave User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; N; PPC; en-US; m18) Gecko/20010131 Netscape6/6.01 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l Subject: Visualizing energy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <0hzUMB.A.yIF.VRbmAB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54342 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A A new scanning method for visualizing Chakras has been developed using the unipolar displacement electric field. The full report with the energy field pattern of an adult male and the corresponding Chakras is available at www.heliognosis.com . In strong agreement with commonly accepted perceptions of the human energy field, a predominant peak in the "aura" is found emanating from the solar plexus region of the body. Further research in this direction, it is hoped, will lead to diagnostic methods for energetic enhancement and the early detection of disease. Dave Marett From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 6 06:12:51 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i46DCkm1010061; Thu, 6 May 2004 06:12:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i46DCieT010045; Thu, 6 May 2004 06:12:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 06:12:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20040506091102.01e6e4c8@mail.lenr-canr.org> X-Sender: logs@lenr-canr.org@mail.lenr-canr.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 09:14:05 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Google News Alerts for "cold fusion" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54343 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I signed up for a new service from Google, the "News Alert." I put in the keyword "cold fusion." Attached are the two daily alerts that have come in so far. There is nothing new, but it might be useful in the future. The service is similar to the old fashioned "newspaper clipping services" people used to subscribe to, except this is automated and it costs nothing. - Jed IS Cold Fusion Heating Up? KMGH - Denver,CO,USA Fifteen years after the first controversial claims hit the headlines, cold fusion refuses to die. A small cadre of die-hard advocates ... <>http://www.thedenverchannel.com/technology/3037068/detail.html> DATA Versus Dogma: The Continuing Battle Over Cold Fusion Pure Energy System News - USA Physics Today reported that the US Department of Energy has decided to review the research in cold fusion that has been done over the last fifteen years. ... <>http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2004/04/26/> IS Cold Fusion Heating Up? TechnologyReview.com - USA By Jeff Hecht. Fifteen years after the first controversial claims hit the headlines, cold fusion refuses to die. A small cadre of ... <>http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/wo_hecht042304.asp> COLD fusion Stuart News - Stuart,FL,USA Disney On Ice, playing in West Palm through Sunday, uses costumes, slick sets to re-create cartoon charm. By Bill DeYoung entertainment editor. ... <>http://www.tcpalm.com/tcp/entertainment/article/0,1651,TCP_999_2820146,00.html> DOE to Revisit Cold Fusion TechNewsWorld - USA Where cold fusion researchers were long shunned for their investigations -- as were mainstream scientists who remained curious about the controversy -- now ... <>http://www.technewsworld.com/perl/story/33299.html> US government plans to review latest research on cold fusion Kansas City Star (subscription) - Kansas City,MO,USA MILWAUKEE - (KRT) - Cold fusion - for years a synonym for crackpot science and theory - might soon get an image boost, courtesy of the US Department of Energy. ... <>http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/nation/8356297.htm> COLD fusion's return? Providence Journal (subscription) - Providence,RI,USA Cold fusion promised to transform energy production, letting everyone supply his own energy needs from environmentally benign reactors in basements. ... <>http://www.projo.com/opinion/editorials/content/projo_20040405_edfusion.153171.html> SCIENTISTS announce cosmic ray theory breakthrough Spaceflight Now - Orlando,FL,USA ... that the source of the measured energy could not be typical solar fusion or even ... and improving the environmental and nuclear materials legacy of the cold war. ... <>http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n0405/01cosmicrays/> CONFLICTING Results on a Long-Lived Nuclear Isomer of Hafnium ... PhysicsToday.org - USA ... Many in the nuclear-physics community are hoping that DOE will convene an expert panel, much as it did for cold fusion 15 years ago (see Physics Today, April ... <>http://www.physicstoday.org/vol-57/iss-5/p21.html> APRIL 29 - May 5, 2004 Metro Weekly - USA ... Leo: Listen to the whispering of the cosmos. You could find the answer, trisect the angle in your sleep, even make cold fusion in an old beer bottle. ... <>http://www.metroweekly.com/gauge/?ak=997> This daily-once News Alert is brought to you by Google News (BETA)... 419ERS crack cold fusion The Register - London,England,UK Since they already have a man in space, it should come as no surprise that our old mates from Lagos have pulled off an even more impressive feat - cold fusion. ... <>http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/05/05/419_cold_fusion/> VERTABASE Pro Software Crafts Faster and Better Project ... Emediawire (press release) - USA ... It is written in Macromedia Cold Fusion MX 6.1 and uses a Microsoft (c) SQL database. Vertabase Pro is a product of Standpipe Studios, LLC. ... <>http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2004/5/emw123496.htm> This daily-once News Alert is brought to you by Google News (BETA)... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 6 08:49:34 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i46FnRm1021494; Thu, 6 May 2004 08:49:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i46FnNMB021446; Thu, 6 May 2004 08:49:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 08:49:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004301c43381$7c033800$8837fea9@pacbell.net> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: High efficiency gasification Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 08:47:48 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0040_01C43346.CF1677E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54344 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01C43346.CF1677E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For years now, fringe researchers have been promoting various schemes to = produce a fuel from water, carbon (coal, graphite, charcoal, biomass, = etc) and electricity. "Aqua-fuel" is one name that comes to mind. Wasn't = that the prototype factory that blew up in Florida a few years ago? It's = regrettable that fringe inventors who occasionally stumble onto = something extraordinary are often so mistrustful that they won't take-on = corporate partners with a broad balance of skills and money and possibly = avoid such tragedies. Anyway, you may remember this replication by = Naudin (which is a little short on details) http://members.fortunecity.com/geoffegel/aquagen.htm Since the energy content of carbon is substantial, that fact immediately = causes most of us to doubt that OU is really seen in these claims, but I = think overunity of a non-LENR variety could be involved. The = tetravalency of carbon is unique in nature in one major way (which I = won't get into just now). But let's just say that CO2 can be easily = superoxidized, as almost all of the plant life on earth attests.... = making it a 'near-fuel' itself. Some better testing of the C+H2O phenomenon appeared a few months back, = with a reported COP of 1.75, which would look pretty solid... except, = it's done by a self-titled 'Engineer Saviour' which immediately makes = one suspect that the results could be influenced by, how shall I say - = other concerns? Has anyone on vortex been following their (Blaze = Labs)message group? Anyway, the site is worth a visit if only for the = quote from Jules Verne: http://www.blazelabs.com/n-aquagen.asp Anyway I became aware of two anecdotal accounts floating around a = university lab and NREL concerning "super high efficiency" coal = gasification - with and without a 'sonochemical' connection. PhDs seldom = mention overunity (OU) by name, but their lab-rats and we on vortex are = not quite so restrained by the science police, so let's have at it ... Is anyone on vortex experimenting along these lines? Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01C43346.CF1677E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

For years now, fringe researchers have been promoting various = schemes to=20 produce a fuel from water, carbon (coal, graphite, charcoal, biomass, = etc) and=20 electricity. "Aqua-fuel" is one name that comes to mind. Wasn't that the = prototype factory that blew up in Florida a few years ago? It's = regrettable=20 that fringe inventors who occasionally stumble onto something = extraordinary=20 are often so mistrustful that they won't take-on corporate partners with = a broad=20 balance of skills and money and possibly avoid such tragedies. Anyway, = you may=20 remember this replication by Naudin (which is a little short on = details)
http://memb= ers.fortunecity.com/geoffegel/aquagen.htm
 
Since the energy content of carbon is substantial, that fact=20 immediately causes most of us to doubt that OU is really seen in = these=20 claims, but I think overunity of a non-LENR variety could = be=20 involved. The tetravalency of carbon is unique in nature in one major = way (which=20 I won't get into just now). But let's just say that CO2 can be easily=20 superoxidized, as almost all of the plant life on earth attests.... = making it a=20 'near-fuel' itself.

Some better testing of the C+H2O phenomenon = appeared=20 a few months back, with a reported COP of 1.75, which would look pretty = solid...=20 except, it's done by a self-titled 'Engineer Saviour' which immediately = makes=20 one suspect that the results could be influenced by, how shall I say - = other=20 concerns? Has anyone on vortex been following their (Blaze Labs)message = group?=20 Anyway, the site is worth a visit if only for the quote from Jules = Verne:
http://www.blazelabs.com/= n-aquagen.asp
 
Anyway I became aware of two anecdotal accounts floating = around a=20 university lab and NREL concerning "super high efficiency" coal=20 gasification - with and without a 'sonochemical' connection. PhDs seldom = mention=20 overunity (OU) by name, but their lab-rats and we on vortex are not = quite so=20 restrained by the science police, so let's have at it ...
 
Is anyone on vortex experimenting along these lines?
 
Jones
------=_NextPart_000_0040_01C43346.CF1677E0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 6 09:18:17 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i46GIBm1030144; Thu, 6 May 2004 09:18:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i46GIADw030129; Thu, 6 May 2004 09:18:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 09:18:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Don Wiegel" To: Subject: RE: High efficiency gasification Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 10:19:29 -0600 Message-ID: <001501c43385$e9b6e140$2702a8c0@DonWLap> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01C43353.9F1DF7E0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <004301c43381$7c033800$8837fea9@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54345 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C43353.9F1DF7E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just found this on the WWWeb .. This is from a Gov Lab http://www.pnl.gov/main/highlights/microchannel.html Researchers at Pacific Northwest National Laboratory are developing a = system to rapidly produce hydrogen from gasoline in your car. "This brings fuel cell-powered cars one step closer to the mass market," said Larry = Pederson, project leader at PNNL. Researchers presented their developments at the American Institute for Chemical Engineers spring meeting in New Orleans, = on April 27. Fuel cell-powered vehicles use hydrogen to get about twice the fuel efficiency of today's cars and significantly reduce emissions. But = how do you "gas up" a hydrogen car? Instead of building a new infrastructure = of hydrogen fueling stations you can convert or reform gasoline onboard the vehicle. One approach uses steam reforming, in which hydrocarbon fuel reacts with steam at high temperatures over a catalyst. Hydrogen atoms are stripped = from water and hydrocarbon molecules to produce hydrogen gas.=20 -DonW- -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net]=20 Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 9:48 AM To: vortex Subject: High efficiency gasification =20 For years now, fringe researchers have been promoting various schemes to produce a fuel from water, carbon (coal, graphite, charcoal, biomass, = etc) and electricity. "Aqua-fuel" is one name that comes to mind. Wasn't that = the prototype factory that blew up in Florida a few years ago? It's = regrettable that fringe inventors who occasionally stumble onto something = extraordinary are often so mistrustful that they won't take-on corporate partners with = a broad balance of skills and money and possibly avoid such tragedies. = Anyway, you may remember this replication by Naudin (which is a little short on details) http://members.fortunecity.com/geoffegel/aquagen.htm =20 Since the energy content of carbon is substantial, that fact immediately causes most of us to doubt that OU is really seen in these claims, but I think overunity of a non-LENR variety could be involved. The = tetravalency of carbon is unique in nature in one major way (which I won't get into just now). But let's just say that CO2 can be easily superoxidized, as almost = all of the plant life on earth attests.... making it a 'near-fuel' itself. Some better testing of the C+H2O phenomenon appeared a few months back, = with a reported COP of 1.75, which would look pretty solid... except, it's = done by a self-titled 'Engineer Saviour' which immediately makes one suspect = that the results could be influenced by, how shall I say - other concerns? = Has anyone on vortex been following their (Blaze Labs)message group? Anyway, = the site is worth a visit if only for the quote from Jules Verne: http://www.blazelabs.com/n-aquagen.asp =20 Anyway I became aware of two anecdotal accounts floating around a = university lab and NREL concerning "super high efficiency" coal gasification - with = and without a 'sonochemical' connection. PhDs seldom mention overunity (OU) = by name, but their lab-rats and we on vortex are not quite so restrained by = the science police, so let's have at it ... =20 Is anyone on vortex experimenting along these lines? =20 Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C43353.9F1DF7E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Just found this on the WWWeb .. This is from a Gov Lab

http://www.= pnl.gov/main/highlights/microchannel.html

Researchers at Pacific Northwest National Laboratory are developing a system to = rapidly produce hydrogen from gasoline in your car. “This brings fuel = cell-powered cars one step closer to the mass market,” said Larry Pederson, project = leader at PNNL. Researchers presented their developments at the American Institute = for Chemical Engineers spring meeting in New Orleans, on April 27. Fuel cell-powered vehicles = use hydrogen to get about twice the fuel efficiency of today’s cars = and significantly reduce emissions. But how do you “gas up” a = hydrogen car? Instead of building a new infrastructure of hydrogen fueling stations you can = convert or reform gasoline onboard the vehicle.

One approach uses steam reforming, in which hydrocarbon fuel reacts with = steam at high temperatures over a catalyst. Hydrogen atoms are stripped from = water and hydrocarbon molecules to produce hydrogen gas.

-DonW-

-----Original Message-----
From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net]
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 9:48 = AM
To: vortex
Subject: High efficiency gasification

 

For years now, fringe researchers = have been promoting various schemes to produce a fuel from water, carbon = (coal, graphite, charcoal, biomass, etc) and electricity. "Aqua-fuel" = is one name that comes to mind. Wasn't that the prototype factory that blew up = in Florida a few years ago? It's regrettable that fringe inventors who occasionally = stumble onto something extraordinary are often so mistrustful that they won't take-on corporate partners with a broad balance of skills and money and possibly = avoid such tragedies. Anyway, you may remember this replication by Naudin = (which is a little short on details)
http://memb= ers.fortunecity.com/geoffegel/aquagen.htm

 

Since the energy content of carbon is substantial, that fact immediately causes most of us to = doubt that OU is really seen in these claims, but I think overunity of a non-LENR variety could be involved. The tetravalency of carbon is unique in nature in one major way (which I = won't get into just now). But let's just say that CO2 can be easily superoxidized, = as almost all of the plant life on earth attests.... making it a = 'near-fuel' itself.

Some better testing of the C+H2O phenomenon appeared a few months back, = with a reported COP of 1.75, which would look pretty solid... except, it's done = by a self-titled 'Engineer Saviour' which immediately makes one suspect that = the results could be influenced by, how shall I say - other concerns? Has = anyone on vortex been following their (Blaze Labs)message group? Anyway, the site = is worth a visit if only for the quote from Jules Verne:
http://www.blazelabs.com/= n-aquagen.asp

 

Anyway I became aware of two anecdotal accounts floating around a university lab and NREL concerning "super high efficiency" coal gasification - = with and without a 'sonochemical' connection. PhDs seldom mention overunity (OU) = by name, but their lab-rats and we on vortex are not quite so restrained by = the science police, so let's have at it ...

 

Is anyone on vortex experimenting = along these lines?

 

Jones

------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C43353.9F1DF7E0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 6 10:08:47 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i46H8bFY014313; Thu, 6 May 2004 10:08:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i46H8CMv014186; Thu, 6 May 2004 10:08:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 10:08:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006101c4338c$46f33b00$8837fea9@pacbell.net> From: "Jones Beene" To: , References: <001501c43385$e9b6e140$2702a8c0@DonWLap> Subject: Re: High efficiency gasification Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 10:05:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id i46H7wFY014037 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54346 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Don, Yes, I saw that story too [PNL gasoline-reforming story] and it has been discussed on several forums recently. This is admittedly not an optimum implementation for using hydrogen as a transportation fuel -employing the carbon in gasoline mainly as only the 'carrier' - first, because gasoline is heavily taxed but mostly because the whole premise is tainted by the disappointing failure in commercialization of the key component - the hydrogen fuel cell. Given the sad possibility that fuel cells may never be cost effective for automotive transportation use due to their reliance on noble metals like platinum and palladium and resultant exorbitant cost ($50,000 for only 50 kW of capacity and that doesn't include the rest of the car) which would only go up with mass production, plus the short expected lifetime of fuel cells (30-50,000 miles), we are left to consider alternative near-term solutions to ease us into a hydrogen economy, even if a lingering reliance on fossil fuel remains part of the equation (let's hope it is a lesser reliance). Despair not! there is an acceptable near-term prime mover - and it is one that may have a surprising advantage while providing 90% of the efficiency advantage of fuel-cells, but within an acceptable cost structure - and durability based on 100 years of manufacturing know-how. The good old ICE - internal combustion engine - gives much better results with H2 as the fuel plus the flexibility of fossil fuel augmentation. The ICE burns H2 very efficiently - close to 40% Carnot efficiency in the newest Ford H2ICE compared to ~25% for the best gasoline ICE. This greater efficiency in an ICE is due primarily to the three-times higher 'critical pressure' of steam compared to CO2. Very simple, steam converts to torque with much greater efficiency than CO2 - so forget the expensive fuel cell. BTW, when you look at the small print, most fuel cells don't get much above 40% Carnot eff. in normal use anyway - the higher numbers you hear quoted are for minimal output - therefore the ICE is looking more and more like the best choice - as it is availble now and reliable. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 6 10:46:04 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i46HjiFY028299; Thu, 6 May 2004 10:45:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i46HjhrQ028287; Thu, 6 May 2004 10:45:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 10:45:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20040506134341.00b23600@mail.lenr-canr.org> X-Sender: logs@lenr-canr.org@mail.lenr-canr.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 13:45:28 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Thermionic Power Chips and Thermoelectric devices Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54347 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mark Goldes wrote: > Borealis uses thermionic conversion. RTI is developing advanced > thermoelectric devices. These are entirely different technologies. Both > accomplish the same end. Both have had low efficiencies for decades. Mark: Can you give us a quick description of the important functional differences between them, such as operating temperatures, lifetime, reliability, cost of materials (or whatever is different)? - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 6 11:55:16 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i46It8FY020549; Thu, 6 May 2004 11:55:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i46It2fk020500; Thu, 6 May 2004 11:55:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 11:55:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Originating-IP: [4.243.128.22] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes@msn.com From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Thermionic Power Chips and Thermoelectric devices Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 11:54:53 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 May 2004 18:54:53.0885 (UTC) FILETIME=[9E1CC6D0:01C4339B] Resent-Message-ID: <0xsxU.A.OAF.GoomAB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54348 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, It has been a number of years since I was involved in these technologies. Borealis has a web site and so does RTI. I'm sure you can find the answers on the internet. My knowledge of both is long out of date. Mark >From: Jed Rothwell >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >To: vortex-L@eskimo.com >Subject: RE: Thermionic Power Chips and Thermoelectric devices >Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 13:45:28 -0400 > >Mark Goldes wrote: > > > Borealis uses thermionic conversion. RTI is developing advanced > > thermoelectric devices. These are entirely different technologies. >Both > > accomplish the same end. Both have had low efficiencies for decades. > >Mark: Can you give us a quick description of the important functional >differences between them, such as operating temperatures, lifetime, >reliability, cost of materials (or whatever is different)? > >- Jed > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 6 13:43:54 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i46KhiIl023167; Thu, 6 May 2004 13:43:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i46Khgar023145; Thu, 6 May 2004 13:43:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 13:43:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20040506163037.00b23560@mail.lenr-canr.org> X-Sender: logs@lenr-canr.org@mail.lenr-canr.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 16:34:24 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: More papers from Kasagi, Yuki, Kubota Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <_VANPD.A.kpF.9NqmAB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54349 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: We now have nine papers about ion-beam loading. See the index by date: http://lenr-canr.org/FilesByDate.htm Kasagi has been very helpful, providing files and checking for OCR errors. It is rather funny, but the other day I wrote: "Kasagi - No response yet. (He is asleep!)" Then on Friday around 2:00 p.m. EDT I got a message from him with files attached. Japan is 13 hours ahead, so I thought the message must have been delayed. But sure enough, the local time of origination was 3:00 a.m. Maybe he doesn't sleep after all? I zapped back asking what he was doing. He responded: "Yes, I am working early in the morning, during a spring vacation season in Japan. . . . But here, we are now running a rather large (nuclear physics) experiment by using GeV gamma-ray. I am taking a shift and am just sitting in front of the console table of our accelerator." Later on he said they would soon do more of the low energy CF related work: "For the low-energy experiments, we are modifying the system. We can start the experiments in next month." That's good news. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 6 13:50:11 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i46KnrCK021558; Thu, 6 May 2004 13:49:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i46KnoRa021514; Thu, 6 May 2004 13:49:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 13:49:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20040506164850.01e9abe0@mail.lenr-canr.org> X-Sender: logs@lenr-canr.org@mail.lenr-canr.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 16:49:45 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: More papers from Kasagi, Yuki, Kubota Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54350 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I did it again! I forgot to unlink the hyperlink. Let me make sure this works. The link is: http://lenr-canr.org/FilesByDate.htm - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 6 16:13:27 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i46NDLAl028965; Thu, 6 May 2004 16:13:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i46NDJk0028946; Thu, 6 May 2004 16:13:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 16:13:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 16:13:22 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Van De Graaff Quality? In-Reply-To: <001801c43299$f0c2cd60$9c81b341@computer> Message-ID: References: <001801c43299$f0c2cd60$9c81b341@computer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54351 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 5 May 2004, Frederick Sparber wrote: > Would this be a reasonable price for a Van de Graaff? > > http://www.hobbytron.net/Van-DeGraff-Generator-Assembled.html > > This outfit is located ~ 60 miles south of Salt Lake City Utah. That's somewhat cheap. The people who make that VDG, Science First, sells it for $137 (or $112 kit version) http://www.sciencefirst.com/vw_prdct_mdl.asp?prdct_mdl_cd=10060 They also have a non-kit $440 version, 400KV, larger: http://www.sciencefirst.com/vw_prdct_mdl.asp?prdct_mdl_cd=10085 (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 6 16:34:37 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i46NY1f3006021; Thu, 6 May 2004 16:34:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i46NXxRw005999; Thu, 6 May 2004 16:33:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 16:33:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 16:35:26 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l Subject: Re: Visualizing energy In-Reply-To: <4099B78F.5050905@eol.ca> Message-ID: References: <4099B78F.5050905@eol.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <__QJQC.A.qdB.ntsmAB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54352 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 5 May 2004, Dave wrote: > A new scanning method for visualizing Chakras has been developed using > the unipolar displacement electric field. Cool! Sounds like the old Chuck Shramek XY scanner. Chuck didn't give complete details, and after he died his wife said that CHuck was a hoaxer. See: http://amasci.com/freenrg/aura/aura.html http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.newphys.se/elektromagnum/physics/KeelyNet/diagrams/Auraview/aura1.gif http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.newphys.se/elektromagnum/physics/KeelyNet/diagrams/Auraview/aura2.gif http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.newphys.se/elektromagnum/physics/KeelyNet/diagrams/Auraview/aura3.gif http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.newphys.se/elektromagnum/physics/KeelyNet/diagrams/Auraview/aura4.gif (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 6 17:17:37 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i470HUf3015260; Thu, 6 May 2004 17:17:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i470HTUX015246; Thu, 6 May 2004 17:17:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 17:17:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: Visualizing energy Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 07:16:56 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <4099B78F.5050905@eol.ca> Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54353 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A quick glance at the page (nicely done, btw) indicates you need to consider that exhaled breath could be affecting measurement. This is something I am very sensitive to because I often perfrom experiments involving sensitive electrostatic mass suspensions, and have always needed to shield apparatus to prevent data skew arising from direct as well as indirect breathing effects. Indications of increased values arise significantly below the level of the nose as well as being noticeably attenuated below the thigh-level, at which point it might be speculated that free ions from breath may have neutralized ambient energy levels. Additionally, you don't mention the presence or absence of such things as belt buckles, jewelry, clothing, etc. This is not to say your premise is without merit, but shielding is in order, along with multiple scans. As well, a digitized dataset may reveal better what you are seeing, particularly if the spatial sampling is fine enough to discern value trends over specific areas. Additionally, you don't mention the presence or absence of such things as belt buckles, jewelry, clothing, etc. > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave [mailto:vortex@eol.ca] > Sent: Thursday, 2004 May 06 10:57 > To: vortex-l > Subject: Visualizing energy > > > A new scanning method for visualizing Chakras has been developed using > the unipolar displacement electric field. The full report with the > energy field pattern of an adult male and the corresponding Chakras is > available at www.heliognosis.com . In strong agreement with commonly > accepted perceptions of the human energy field, a predominant peak in > the "aura" is found emanating from the solar plexus region of the body. > Further research in this direction, it is hoped, will lead to diagnostic > methods for energetic enhancement and the early detection of disease. > > Dave Marett > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 6 19:57:30 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i472vQf3022802; Thu, 6 May 2004 19:57:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i472vOKv022780; Thu, 6 May 2004 19:57:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 19:57:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <409AFE56.8030507@eol.ca> Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 23:11:18 -0400 From: Dave User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; N; PPC; en-US; m18) Gecko/20010131 Netscape6/6.01 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Visualizing energy References: <4099B78F.5050905@eol.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54354 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A new scanning method for visualizing Chakras has been developed using > the unipolar displacement electric field William Beaty wrote: Cool! Sounds like the old Chuck Shramek XY scanner. Chuck didn't give complete details, and after he died his wife said that CHuck was a hoaxer. Thanks for the links Bill. They are still viewable using the "wayback machine". I am a little suspicious of Chuck's overly defined glowing colored Chakras. Dave Marett From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 6 20:14:19 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i473EDAl021829; Thu, 6 May 2004 20:14:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i473E1jR021757; Thu, 6 May 2004 20:14:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 20:14:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <409B01E8.5040008@eol.ca> Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 23:26:32 -0400 From: Dave User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; N; PPC; en-US; m18) Gecko/20010131 Netscape6/6.01 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Visualizing energy References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54355 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Explorecraft wrote: "you need to consider that exhaled breath could be affecting measurement" The subject was breathing shallowly while the scans were being performed to prevent physical motion from affecting the readings. "Additionally, you don't mention the presence or absence of such things as belt buckles, jewelry, clothing, etc." The subject was wearing close fitting underwear only. Similar scans performed with clothing did not affect the readings significantly however. This is a preliminary scan set and more tests will reveal the effects of breath, health, and energetic differences between subjects. The data was digitized by the "chart recorder", a digital sampling oscilloscope (Tektronix TDS320) but were not oversampled or otherwise modified. The curves are a real representation of the detected energy levels. I agree that some form of shielding may be usefull to prevent air currents and breath effects and may also serve as a reference to keep the sensing distance accurate. Dave Marett From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 6 20:17:35 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i473HUf3027492; Thu, 6 May 2004 20:17:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i473HTuS027477; Thu, 6 May 2004 20:17:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 20:17:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <409B0310.40108@eol.ca> Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 23:31:28 -0400 From: Dave User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; N; PPC; en-US; m18) Gecko/20010131 Netscape6/6.01 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Thermionic Power Chips and Thermoelectric devices References: <6.0.3.0.2.20040506134341.00b23600@mail.lenr-canr.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54356 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mark Goldes, The thermoelectric devices you and Jed are discussing, are you talking about thermo electric crystals? Would you know what the present efficiency level (approximate) is for heat to electricity conversion under ideal conditions and with a source and sink temperature of say 40C and 20C respectively? Dave Marett From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 6 20:23:23 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i473NFAl024385; Thu, 6 May 2004 20:23:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i473NDYw024368; Thu, 6 May 2004 20:23:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 20:23:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Visualizing energy Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 23:49:48 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <409AFE56.8030507@eol.ca> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54357 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You should show the data scaled to the human figure shown in the diagram. Although the plots are within a foot of the subject, the lines extend several scale feet away from the subject. Also, I apologize if we've gone through this before on the list, but there seems to be no units on the scale of the meter. If this thing is measuring displacement current does that mean the scale is in some small fraction of amps? Or is it more fair to consider it a low frequency dielectric resitivivity meter? I like the vacuum tube sensor. Very cheeky. K. -----Original Message----- From: Dave [mailto:vortex@eol.ca] Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 11:11 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Visualizing energy A new scanning method for visualizing Chakras has been developed using > the unipolar displacement electric field William Beaty wrote: Cool! Sounds like the old Chuck Shramek XY scanner. Chuck didn't give complete details, and after he died his wife said that CHuck was a hoaxer. Thanks for the links Bill. They are still viewable using the "wayback machine". I am a little suspicious of Chuck's overly defined glowing colored Chakras. Dave Marett From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 6 21:10:12 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i474A7Al003575; Thu, 6 May 2004 21:10:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i474A6rq003563; Thu, 6 May 2004 21:10:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 21:10:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Originating-IP: [4.243.158.237] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes@msn.com From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Thermionic Power Chips and Thermoelectric devices Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 21:10:07 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 May 2004 04:10:07.0601 (UTC) FILETIME=[2EA26E10:01C433E9] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54358 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dave, Sorry. As I told Jed, it has been many years since I worked with TE. Any good text or an internet search might turn up some help. Mark >From: Dave >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Subject: Re: Thermionic Power Chips and Thermoelectric devices >Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 23:31:28 -0400 > >Mark Goldes, > > The thermoelectric devices you and Jed are discussing, are you talking >about thermo electric crystals? Would you know what the present efficiency >level (approximate) is for heat to electricity conversion under ideal >conditions and with a source and sink temperature of say 40C and 20C >respectively? > >Dave Marett > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 7 07:00:31 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i47E0Nf3007348; Fri, 7 May 2004 07:00:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i47E06Wj007256; Fri, 7 May 2004 07:00:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 07:00:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004801c4343b$cce103f0$4a63d38d@Oleg> From: "Oleg Palchik" To: References: Subject: Re: Thermionic Power Chips and Thermoelectric devices Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 10:01:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: <6SQDwB.A.UxB.mZ5mAB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54359 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dave Efficiency level of modern thermoelectric devices is very low. In this field for the last 40-50 years has been little progress. Frequently the efficiency of thermoelectric device is measured in dimensionless figure of merit ZT. Today's best thermoelectric materials for power generation have ZT around 1.5, for cooling ZT is smaller (less than 1). For example home refrigerator has ZT~4 (Coefficient Of Performance~1.37), and ideal Carnot efficiency is 4.38. This mean that thermoelectric materials must have at least ZT=3 (COP~1.1) in order to be commercially competitive with home refrigerator. Oleg ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Goldes" To: Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 12:10 AM Subject: Re: Thermionic Power Chips and Thermoelectric devices > Dave, > > Sorry. As I told Jed, it has been many years since I worked with TE. > > Any good text or an internet search might turn up some help. > > Mark > > > >From: Dave > >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > >Subject: Re: Thermionic Power Chips and Thermoelectric devices > >Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 23:31:28 -0400 > > > >Mark Goldes, > > > > The thermoelectric devices you and Jed are discussing, are you talking > >about thermo electric crystals? Would you know what the present efficiency > >level (approximate) is for heat to electricity conversion under ideal > >conditions and with a source and sink temperature of say 40C and 20C > >respectively? > > > >Dave Marett > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 7 09:04:02 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i47G3hAl021853; Fri, 7 May 2004 09:03:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i47G3g2g021815; Fri, 7 May 2004 09:03:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 09:03:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <750890ab-0c5a-4e5b-82b0-efddb9331ca7> Message-ID: <002301c4344c$d3f4a140$5449ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <004801c4343b$cce103f0$4a63d38d@Oleg> Subject: Re: Thermionic Power Chips and Thermoelectric devices Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 12:03:19 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <1SQc-D.A.tUF.dN7mAB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54360 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Oleg Palchik" Subject: Re: Thermionic Power Chips and Thermoelectric devices Mark made the very important point that the Borealis PowerChips are *thermionic* devices, not 'solid state' devices. And remember my point that the thermal conductivity of 'thermoelectric' devices reduces the performance. The PowerChips have vacuum insulation between the hot and cold sides, a very significant difference. Mike Carrell > Dave > Efficiency level of modern thermoelectric devices is very low. In this field > for the last 40-50 years has been little progress. Frequently the efficiency > of thermoelectric device is measured in dimensionless figure of merit ZT. > Today's best thermoelectric materials for power generation have ZT around > 1.5, for cooling ZT is smaller (less than 1). For example home refrigerator > has ZT~4 (Coefficient Of Performance~1.37), and ideal Carnot efficiency is > 4.38. This mean that thermoelectric materials must have at least ZT=3 > (COP~1.1) in order to be commercially competitive with home refrigerator. > Oleg > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark Goldes" > To: > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 12:10 AM > Subject: Re: Thermionic Power Chips and Thermoelectric devices > > > > Dave, > > > > Sorry. As I told Jed, it has been many years since I worked with TE. > > > > Any good text or an internet search might turn up some help. > > > > Mark > > > > > > >From: Dave > > >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > > >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > > >Subject: Re: Thermionic Power Chips and Thermoelectric devices > > >Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 23:31:28 -0400 > > > > > >Mark Goldes, > > > > > > The thermoelectric devices you and Jed are discussing, are you talking > > >about thermo electric crystals? Would you know what the present > efficiency > > >level (approximate) is for heat to electricity conversion under ideal > > >conditions and with a source and sink temperature of say 40C and 20C > > >respectively? > > > > > >Dave Marett > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 7 14:30:02 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i47LTvf3012499; Fri, 7 May 2004 14:29:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i47LTtiH012478; Fri, 7 May 2004 14:29:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 14:29:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: "Johnson, Steven" To: "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" Cc: "Johnson, Steven" Subject: RE: Thermionic Power Chips and Thermoelectric devices Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 16:31:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-PMX-Version: 4.6.0.97784, Antispam-Core: 4.6.0.97340, Antispam-Data: 2004.5.7.100138 X-PerlMx-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIIII, Probability=8%, Report='__IMS_MSGID 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __SANE_MSGID 0, __TO_MALFORMED_2 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __ANY_IMS_MUA 0, EXCHANGE_SERVER 0, __HAS_X_MAILER 0, __IMS_MUA 0, __EVITE_CTYPE 0, __CTYPE_CHARSET_QUOTED 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __CT 0, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT 0, __MIME_TEXT_ONLY 0' Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54361 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Dave > Efficiency level of modern thermoelectric devices is very > low. In this field for the last 40-50 years has been little > progress. Frequently the efficiency of thermoelectric device > is measured in dimensionless figure of merit ZT. Today's > best thermoelectric materials for power generation have ZT > around 1.5, for cooling ZT is smaller (less than 1). For > example home refrigerator has ZT~4 (Coefficient Of > Performance~1.37), and ideal Carnot efficiency is 4.38. > This mean that thermoelectric materials must have at least > ZT=3 (COP~1.1) in order to be commercially competitive with > home refrigerator. > Oleg > I must confess that the numerical ratios describe above make little sense to me. I'm not an engineer nor can I comprehend engineerspeak. Is it possible to compare the above numbers pertaining to the efficiencies of thermoelectric devices to the claimed efficiency percentages given for Power Chip's thermionic devices? The Power Chip home page is located at: http://www.powerchips.gi/ To restate: Power Chips claims that their thermionic chips "...will deliver up to 70-80% of the maximum (Carnot) theoretical efficiency for heat pumps (conventional power generation equipment operates at up to 40% Carnot efficiency)." Steven Vincent Johnson www.orionworks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 7 15:12:43 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i47MCUAl006302; Fri, 7 May 2004 15:12:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i47MCRFQ006284; Fri, 7 May 2004 15:12:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 15:12:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000b01c43480$76a06d60$c864a8c0@win98> From: To: Subject: OT: 'Junk' DNA reveals vital role Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 01:11:35 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54362 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: 'Junk' DNA reveals vital role http://www.nature.com/nsu/040503/040503-9.html ---------- ...The segments, dubbed 'ultraconserved elements', lie in the large parts of the genome that do not code for any protein. Their presence adds to growing evidence that the importance of these areas, often dismissed as junk DNA, could be much more fundamental than anyone suspected. ....David Haussler of the University of California, Santa Cruz, and his team scanned the genome sequences of man, mouse and rat(1). They found more than 480 ultraconserved regions that are completely identical across the three species. That is a surprising similarity: gene sequences in mouse and man for example are on average only 85% similar. "It absolutely knocked me off my chair," says Haussler. ---------- This would not be a mystery for a computer programmer. Just code and data. "Junk DNA" is the code, rest is the data used to make the specie. The code in turn, is maybe about to manage the DNA itself, manage the data. That is making the DNA dynamic and species evolving. There should be some processors for species evolves in a logic but not by random mutation. Natural selection plays then after. This code is same on species, because a computer program does not work even single bit change in its code. It appears that this code not written or complied efficiently, because lot of repetitive sequences it have and junky appearance. :) Anyway, we would be happy, nobody asking us a licence fee. Or it could be a demo version? :( Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 7 16:47:12 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i47Nl2Al003224; Fri, 7 May 2004 16:47:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i47Nkxek003200; Fri, 7 May 2004 16:46:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 16:46:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-2200455723477320@ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l@eskimo.com" Subject: FW: WHAT'S NEW Friday, May 07, 2004 Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 16:47:07 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8de0f987b576114333e215450938ad468bd9aa8b00e01cd47350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54363 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > [Original Message] > From: What's New > To: Akira Kawasaki Date: 5/7/2004 2:41:08 PM Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, May 07, 2004 WHAT’S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 7 May 04 Washington, DC 1. WORLD SCIENCE: U.S. LEAD IS SHRINKING – THAT’S THE GOOD NEWS. A front page story in the NY Times on Monday, using data provided by the APS, proclaimed that the "U.S. Is Losing Its Dominance in the Sciences." It was already evident from the 2004 Science and Engineering Indicators, issued by the National Science Board in January, that America’s lead in basic science is narrowing. "The rest of the world is catching up," NSF analyst John Jankowski told the New York Times. If he means that science in the rest of the world is making rapid progress, it’s good news; we trained many of their scientists on the theory that in a world of vast disparities, no one is safe. It would be even better news if our response to foreign competition would be to increase funding for basic science. Basic research is the engine of progress, and it draws top scientists to the U.S. from around the world, including by our count, 20 of the Americans awarded the Nobel Prize in physics since WWII, 28 in physiology and medicine, and another 18 in chemistry. Unfortunately, there is little reason to suppose our response will be to increase basic research. We continue to squander our resources on high-profile, low-return science such as the Space Station, and the Moon, Mars and Beyond initiative. 2. MOON, MARS AND BEYOND: “SPACE EXPLORATION ALLIANCE” LOVES IT. NASA may be planning to redirect its efforts toward exploration of space http://www.aps.org/WN/index.cfm , as WN reported last week, but according to the Washington Post on Saturday, the vision in Congress is cloudy and the space initiative is stalled. Congress wants a plan and there is no plan. In hopes of getting some sort of cost estimate we went to a noon press conference today at the National Press Club. A new organization called the Space Exploration Alliance had announced they would “aggressively refute the false impression that Moon, Mars and Beyond is too expensive for this country to take on.” A spokesman declared that “Never before in the history of the United States have 13 organizations banded together to support a space initiative.” I saw no reason to doubt that figure, but there was still no cost estimate. I counted a total of three reporters in the room. The other 30 or so wore Space Exploration Alliance name tags, and were apparently there for the free lunch. One thing was clear, if travelers to Mars are the same size as the industry reps at the press conference, they’re gonna need a big launch vehicle. 3. PLAN B: NASA HAS FAILED TO PROVIDE CONGRESS WITH ANY DETAILS. O’Keefe’s plan might be described as, “once we build it, we’ll know what it costs.” It’s not like the President is backing up O’Keefe. President Bush has not mentioned Moon/Mars since his 14 January speech to the American people. Perhaps he decided it had all been a mistake and took a morning-after pill. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN You are currently subscribed to whatsnew as: aki@ix.netcom.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-whatsnew-47101V@lists.apsmsgs.org To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 7 18:03:54 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4813kAl025708; Fri, 7 May 2004 18:03:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4813jYv025698; Fri, 7 May 2004 18:03:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 18:03:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: 'Junk' DNA reveals vital role Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 08:01:37 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <000b01c43480$76a06d60$c864a8c0@win98> X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54364 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: hamdix@iris.com.tr [mailto:hamdix@iris.com.tr] > Sent: Saturday, 2004 May 08 05:12 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: OT: 'Junk' DNA reveals vital role > > > 'Junk' DNA reveals vital role > http://www.nature.com/nsu/040503/040503-9.html > ---------- > ...The segments, dubbed 'ultraconserved elements', lie in the > large parts of the genome that do not code for any protein. > --X-- < > This would not be a mystery for a computer programmer. Just code and data. > "Junk DNA" is the code, rest is the data used to make the specie. > > The code in turn, is maybe about to manage the DNA itself, manage > the data. > --X-- < > This code is same on species, because a computer program does not work > even single bit change in its code. It appears that this code not > written or > complied efficiently, because lot of repetitive sequences it have > and junky > appearance. :) > Anyway, we would be happy, nobody asking us a licence fee. Or it > could be a > demo version? :( It that's a demo version, don't bother buying the full release! It was apparently coded by diverse teams of hackers at cross-purposes. Perhaps it would be more accurate to describe them as 'script kiddies': One team added native-code worms for self-propagation, while another slipped in destructive viral elements totally at odds with the concept of clustered processing. The core team abandoned product reliability. Hardware maintenance routines are hampered by spy-ware inserted by parasitic memes. Communications algorithms were never designed for high-speed connections, as demonstrated by the extremely limited non-volatile memory and the few, slow serial interface designs. Although there appear to be crude attempts to implement a true multi-tasking operating system, this appears to be key-locked in most functional devices, where installed at all. And who authorized the pop-ups for those spammer organizations? The pop-ups perform full resets on computation memory when invoked. Regards, http://www.explorecraft.com/forum/ x From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 8 05:29:47 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i48CTbmx004668; Sat, 8 May 2004 05:29:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i48CTX8v004649; Sat, 8 May 2004 05:29:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 05:29:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <000c01c434f8$1527cc40$8359ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <000b01c43480$76a06d60$c864a8c0@win98> Subject: Re: 'Junk' DNA reveals vital role Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 08:29:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <0Q4VoC.A.kIB.tKNnAB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54365 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: When the genome was first decoded and it was announced that only some 30,000 genes were found and the rest was 'junk', my intuitive alarms went off. Without proof, to me 30,000 genes is too small for humans and it meant that any assertions that we understood what is going on is absurd. This revelation is profound. But there is something else. In forensic use of DNA, it is not the genes that are used for identification, as these are conserved and common across the population. The 'junk' is used in forensics, for if 'useless it is not conserved, and so will different for each individual. Now if sections are ultraconvserved and common across species, what does this do the forensics? I'm sure there is an answer, just not covered in the article. Anybody here have an clue? Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 8 06:18:02 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i48DHmmx015216; Sat, 8 May 2004 06:17:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i48DHkSH015194; Sat, 8 May 2004 06:17:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 06:17:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <409CE0E4.3030509@eol.ca> Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 09:30:12 -0400 From: Dave User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; N; PPC; en-US; m18) Gecko/20010131 Netscape6/6.01 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l Subject: Re: Visualizing energy References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54366 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Keith, In relation to the visualizing Chakras of the human body post, At first I tried presenting the data scaled to the human figure but overlap of the curves resulted. The figure was confusing and the small details of the plots were lost. Since the most important aspect from my point of view was to show the functional relationship between the meter readings and the position over the body, I expanded the scale horizontally as shown in the legend. To give you some idea of the actual displacement current scale, the average "background" displacement current in the absence of a subject is approximately 10 microamps. For these plots, the x100 range was used. For the 3" scan over the front of the body, about 90% of full scale was used. All six plots have the same relative scale. The peak then at the solar plexus corresponds to an increase of about 90 nanoamps above the background. To answer your question, the meter does indeed measure current. Dave Marett From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 8 19:26:27 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i492QMVX032561; Sat, 8 May 2004 19:26:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i492QJ12032537; Sat, 8 May 2004 19:26:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 19:26:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <409D9792.4020305@pobox.com> Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 22:29:38 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: (OT) New physics/relativity website Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54367 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [Science, yes. Anomalous, no, so that puts it off topic...] I got bitten hard by the website bug. Even skipped reading Vortex for the past couple weeks while I put the finishing touches on the new site. Anyhow, if you've got an interest in relativity -- and I'm pretty sure some folks on Vortex do -- please stop by: http://physicsinsights.org Some of the content comes from a few of my old posts to Vortex and sci.physics.relativity which I dusted off and cleaned up, and some of it's new. The biggest item on the site at the moment is a solution to the "counter-revolving twins" problem (rather messy). On the other hand, if you're _learning_ SR the most useful item might be the discussion of hyperbolic rotations, which is very elementary but tends to get skipped over in a lot of curricula. Any and all comments welcome, particularly comments like "My browser barfs on your Greek text please fix it" -- but even comments like "That's trivial wadja bother to waste a website on it" will be happily received as well (hey, it shows you at least skimmed it, right?). Cheers... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 9 09:40:48 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i49Gei4H001634; Sun, 9 May 2004 09:40:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i49GeBYw001463; Sun, 9 May 2004 09:40:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 09:40:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004001c435e4$2357f8c0$8837fea9@pacbell.net> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: One part in 4,000 Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 09:39:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id i49Ge74H001431 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54368 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >From time to time, the mystical or coincidental properties of "numbers" and ratios become fascinating to me - some numbers seem to possess a special quality in and of themselves. I doubt that this is the best forum on which to pursue this subject, so I'll try to take future posts on number peculiarities elsewhere. But a few weeks ago, in a posting about transcendental numbers such as "pi" and "alpha" the question was posed "Why is the ratio of proton mass to electron mass so close to the 6*(pi^5 )? Then recently some cosmological data has appeared about interstellar clouds. In these clouds, we can determine from the light spectra of quasar light passing through them both how much ordinary hydrogen there is and how much deuterium. We can separate the signal of deuterium because the added mass in the deuterium nucleus increases the energy required for atomic transitions by about one part in 4,000 (about twice the ratio of a proton's mass to an electron's mass). It is easy to see why alpha would be involved there but coincidentally the relative proportion of D-to-H in these clouds is about one part in 4,000 - and the reason for that is less obvious. That may mean nothing by itself... but it is a bit more interesting in the context of alpha as a number unto itself. The fine structure constant (1/137.036) is so extremely close to 1/137 that it is tempting to dispense with the small difference, but that could be a huge mistake... as one of the best kept-secrets of the universe is why alpha is so close to 1/137 and not more or less. The answer to that could be inherent in a 4-space "time correction factor" but the curious thing is that the ratio of alpha to137 is itself a bit larger by a factor of about... ta da... one part per 4,000 (not exact, but close.. .002677) Curious... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 9 11:18:38 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i49IIY4H021418; Sun, 9 May 2004 11:18:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i49IIWmJ021391; Sun, 9 May 2004 11:18:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 11:18:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <003401c435f2$4240d780$2a5accd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Fw: Re: Latest ACS presentation Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 14:19:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002F_01C435D0.A9D58930" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <4KhLOD.A.KOF.4XnnAB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54369 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C435D0.A9D58930 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The message below surfaced on HSG Sunday. I don't know who = "vitalcontact01" is, no name was given for reasons that are apparent = upon reading the text. For those on Vortex not up to speed on this, the = ACS presentation by Mills included a fairly complete block diagram of a = stand-alone hydrogen generator suitable for a 'hydrogen filling station' = to supplement gasoline pumps. The generator uses a thermal BLP reactor = illustrated in the ACS presentation and on the BLP website. A small = steam turbine runs a generator producing local electric power and an = electrolytic cell to produce hydrogen. Mills also recently revisited the potassium carbonate electrolytic cell = in an experiment that this cell produces hydrinos as well as hydrogen = and excess heat.=20 In an earlier but recent presentation, Mills suggested a Stirling engine = powered by heat from a BLP reactor, at that time in context with a = beefed-up Evenson-type microwave cavity.=20 All this points to a path that includes enabling a hydrogen = transportation economy with BLP technology that involves local hydrogen = generators, transition dual hydrogen-gasoline cars, gasoline-hydrogen = Stirling hybrids, BLP-Stirling hybrids, utilization of BLP = hyperbatteries in hybrids, and possible long range cars using only BLP = hyperbatteries. The hyperbatteries require an abundant source of = hydrinos, which are byproducts of all the hydrogen generating plants.=20 The comments below do not emphasize a *very vital point*, that the BLP = reactions have gotten 100X the energy from a given quantity of molecular = hydrogen that by combustion of that hydrogen, This makes an enormous = difference in all the storage and transportation problems associated = with the use of hydrogen.=20 Mike Carrell -------------------------------------- ----- Original Message -----=20 From: vitalcontact01=20 To: hydrino@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 11:09 AM Subject: HSG: Re: Latest ACS presentation BLP is always an interesting debate. Let me fill you in on what=20 BLP's strategy is as I am actually in regular contact with them on=20 this subject due to bus dev reasons. What Dr. Mills hints at in ACS is a newish but not surprising=20 approach to leading the US more quickly to a hydrogen based economy.=20 Given time and practical engineering activity, the BLP process=20 (physics questions aside) will be used to create non-internal=20 combustion engines to drive vehicles, power plants, etc etc. In the=20 interim, the conventional wisdom by government and industry (and the=20 venture capital world) seems to be fuel cells. I for one, don't=20 believe fuel cells hold much promise. And many people are coming to=20 the same conclusion. (See Scientific American from this month). Consequently, BLP has, with some forsight, determined that the BLP=20 process can be practically applied to H20 electrolysis to produce=20 molecular hydrogen. Without the BLP process providing a thermal=20 generator or some other rectifier based solution, electrolysis would=20 not be a cost effective alternative to gasoline production (by a=20 factor of 5X or more). However, (and I am sure I am preaching to=20 the choir) with the BLP approach H becomes available through=20 electrolysis below or even significantly below the cost of the=20 production of gasoline! While the discussion in the thread herein is interesting, I think=20 some of you are missing the point. While the natural gas pipeline=20 infrastructure could/should probably handle hydrogen (with=20 appropriate new sensors and H fire suppression technology) it=20 wouldn't really solve the "GAS STATION" problem of distribution=20 which relies on tankers. Distributing H via tankers would drive H=20 distribution costs up to impractical levels because it would take 3X=20 the number of tankers to deliver an equivilent amount of hydrogen as=20 gasoline (at least in the near future until new methods of=20 compression and storage for H are perfected). =20 Consequently, BLP's idea is to develop an apparatus that would=20 deliver H at a gas station by converting water at pump time (hey a=20 new concept of just in time delivery). The fixed cost for each gas=20 station would be high but I think reasonable. The gasoline=20 infrastructure in the gas stations would not have to be touched in=20 the short term. In the longer term I would hope that it would be=20 all ripped out and tremendously help the environment. So .. the idea is that people would convert their current internal=20 combustion engines (where practical and cost effective) to hydrogen.=20 NOTE: Conversion of Gas engines to dual use costs about $5K right=20 now but in volume would probably come down to $1K to $2K (source=20 Ford motor company). Of course, practical storage of hydrogen in a=20 car may be the big issue (people may lose some trunk space if they=20 go this route for hydrogen storage equipment) and you'd still have=20 to be able to use gasoline as well in many cases for longer trips. =20 However, there is a huge huge amount of research currently taking=20 place on high compression, high volume storage of hydrogen. My theory on much of this is, (again physics theory and arguments=20 aside) that if a big player (and I know several large multinationals=20 are interested in the BLP process) goes public with a BLP power=20 solution using hydrogen then the price of gasoline is going to come=20 down pretty precipitously. I don't know when this is all going to happen, but I am fairly=20 certain that it isn't going to take much more than 1 or 2 years=20 before this stuff starts gaining big notice. However, only time=20 will really tell .. much of what BLP is doing has taken much much=20 longer than Dr. Mills originally projected particularly prior to and=20 during the internet bubble when they were talking IPO. Dr. Mills=20 like many entrepreneurs and visionaries is often over optimistic in=20 light of the political and social landscape surrounding the adoption=20 of new technologies. Keep your fingers crossed our planets needs BLP. My best to you all and please keep up the great conversation and=20 intriguing controversy. VC ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C435D0.A9D58930 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The message below surfaced on HSG = Sunday. I don't=20 know who "vitalcontact01" is, no name was given for reasons that are = apparent=20 upon reading the text. For those on Vortex not up to speed on this, the = ACS=20 presentation by Mills included a fairly complete block diagram of a = stand-alone=20 hydrogen generator suitable for a 'hydrogen filling station' to = supplement=20 gasoline pumps. The generator uses a thermal BLP reactor illustrated in = the ACS=20 presentation and on the BLP website. A small steam turbine runs a = generator=20 producing local electric power and an electrolytic cell to produce=20 hydrogen.
 
Mills also recently revisited the = potassium=20 carbonate electrolytic cell in an experiment that this cell=20 produces hydrinos as well as hydrogen and excess heat. =
 
In an earlier but recent presentation, = Mills=20 suggested a Stirling engine powered by heat from a BLP reactor, at that = time in=20 context with a beefed-up Evenson-type microwave cavity. =
 
All this points to a path that includes = enabling a=20 hydrogen transportation economy with BLP technology that = involves local=20 hydrogen generators, transition dual hydrogen-gasoline cars, = gasoline-hydrogen=20 Stirling hybrids, BLP-Stirling hybrids, utilization of BLP = hyperbatteries in=20 hybrids, and possible long range cars using only BLP hyperbatteries. The = hyperbatteries require an abundant source of hydrinos, which are = byproducts of=20 all the hydrogen generating plants.
 
The comments below do not emphasize a = *very vital=20 point*, that the BLP reactions have gotten 100X the energy from a given = quantity=20 of molecular hydrogen that by combustion of that hydrogen, This makes an = enormous difference in all the storage and transportation problems = associated=20 with the use of hydrogen.
Mike Carrell
--------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: vitalcontact01
Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 11:09 AM
Subject: HSG: Re: Latest ACS presentation

BLP is always an = interesting=20 debate.  Let me fill you in on what
BLP's strategy is as I am = actually=20 in regular contact with them on
this subject due to bus dev=20 reasons.

What Dr. Mills hints at in ACS is a newish but not = surprising=20
approach to leading the US more quickly to a hydrogen based economy. =
Given time and practical engineering activity, the BLP process =
(physics=20 questions aside) will be used to create non-internal
combustion = engines to=20 drive vehicles, power plants, etc etc.  In the
interim, the=20 conventional wisdom by government and industry (and the
venture = capital=20 world) seems to be fuel cells.  I for one, don't
believe fuel = cells=20 hold much promise.  And many people are coming to
the same = conclusion.=20 (See Scientific American from this month).

Consequently, BLP has, = with=20 some forsight, determined that the BLP
process can be practically = applied to=20 H20 electrolysis to produce
molecular hydrogen. Without the BLP = process=20 providing a thermal
generator or some other rectifier based = solution,=20 electrolysis would
not be a cost effective alternative to gasoline=20 production (by a
factor of 5X or more).  However, (and I am = sure I am=20 preaching to
the choir) with the BLP approach H becomes available = through=20
electrolysis below or even significantly below the cost of the=20
production of gasoline!

While the discussion in the thread = herein is=20 interesting, I think
some of you are missing the point.  While = the=20 natural gas pipeline
infrastructure could/should probably handle = hydrogen=20 (with
appropriate new sensors and H fire suppression technology) it=20
wouldn't really solve the "GAS STATION" problem of distribution =
which=20 relies on tankers.  Distributing H via tankers would drive H=20
distribution costs up to impractical levels because it would take 3X =
the=20 number of tankers to deliver an equivilent amount of hydrogen as =
gasoline=20 (at least in the near future until new methods of
compression and = storage=20 for H are perfected). 

Consequently, BLP's idea is to = develop an=20 apparatus that would
deliver H at a gas station by converting water = at pump=20 time (hey a
new concept of just in time delivery).  The fixed = cost for=20 each gas
station would be high but I think reasonable. The gasoline=20
infrastructure in the gas stations would not have to be touched in =
the=20 short term.  In the longer term I would hope that it would be =
all=20 ripped out and tremendously help the environment.

So .. the idea = is that=20 people would convert their current internal
combustion engines = (where=20 practical and cost effective) to hydrogen.
NOTE: Conversion of Gas = engines=20 to dual use costs about $5K right
now but in volume would probably = come down=20 to $1K to $2K (source
Ford motor company). Of course, practical = storage of=20 hydrogen in a
car may be the big issue (people may lose some trunk = space if=20 they
go this route for hydrogen storage equipment) and you'd still = have=20
to be able to use gasoline as well in many cases for longer = trips. =20
However, there is a huge huge amount of research currently taking =
place=20 on high compression, high volume storage of hydrogen.

My theory = on much=20 of this is, (again physics theory and arguments
aside) that if a big = player=20 (and I know several large multinationals
are interested in the BLP = process)=20 goes public with a BLP power
solution using hydrogen then the price = of=20 gasoline is going to come
down pretty precipitously.

I don't = know=20 when this is all going to happen, but I am fairly
certain that it = isn't=20 going to take much more than 1 or 2 years
before this stuff starts = gaining=20 big notice.  However, only time
will really tell .. much of = what BLP is=20 doing has taken much much
longer than Dr. Mills originally projected = particularly prior to and
during the internet bubble when they were = talking=20 IPO. Dr. Mills
like many entrepreneurs and visionaries is often over = optimistic in
light of the political and social landscape = surrounding the=20 adoption
of new technologies. Keep your fingers crossed our planets = needs=20 BLP.

My best to you all and please keep up the great conversation = and=20
intriguing controversy.

VC
 ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C435D0.A9D58930-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 9 11:27:00 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i49IQs4H024117; Sun, 9 May 2004 11:26:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i49IQsFb024098; Sun, 9 May 2004 11:26:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 11:26:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <014401c435f3$0a0f0ca0$8837fea9@pacbell.net> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <409D9792.4020305@pobox.com> Subject: Re: (OT) New physics/relativity website Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 11:25:37 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id i49IQl4H024072 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54370 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, > Anyhow, if you've got an interest in relativity -- and I'm pretty sure > some folks on Vortex do -- please stop by: > > http://physicsinsights.org Nice work! I particularly like the reference to hyperbolic rotations. I can understand your reluctance to get speculative with this now, but... IF one wanted to suggest a universal topography, this is a good start. Should you want to go further afield with this, check out - not only this particular topology, but the nice applet which allows one to rotate and investigate: http://www.uta.edu/optics/sudduth/4d/minimal/catenoid/catenoid.htm Regards, Jones Beene From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 9 12:35:05 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i49JYvAp009125; Sun, 9 May 2004 12:34:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i49JYt8B009103; Sun, 9 May 2004 12:34:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 12:34:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <409E87A9.4020508@cox.net> Disposition-Notification-To: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 12:34:01 -0700 From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." Organization: ISUS User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Sonofusion References: <003401c435f2$4240d780$2a5accd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54371 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A few days ago, an archeologist was the guest on coast to coast am describing many hi-tech artifacts unearthed around the world (these are suppressed by mainstream archeologists). One interesting point made was that in several ancient documents from, as I recall China and India, it was mentioned that their aircraft could fly long distances on a thimble full of mercury. Any ideas how they got the energy therefrom? Since extremely high temperatures can be reached in ultrasonically excited water, wouldn't mercury have an order of magnitude or two higher temperatures at ~13 times the density of water? We can easily observe that mercury emits blue-green flashes when disturbed, but I think that's probably another phenomenon. http://www.coasttocoastam.com/guests/782.html Hoyt Stearns Scottsdale, Arizona US From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 9 16:28:31 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i49NSPAp025986; Sun, 9 May 2004 16:28:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i49NSIYC025947; Sun, 9 May 2004 16:28:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 16:28:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 16:28:21 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: heh. Cold Fusion in Nigeria Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54372 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 9 16:29:09 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i49NStAp026166; Sun, 9 May 2004 16:28:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i49NSshK026145; Sun, 9 May 2004 16:28:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 16:28:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 16:28:57 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: heh. Cold Fusion in Nigeria Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54373 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Oops. Here it is. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 07:54:35 -0400 From: Ludwik Kowalski Reply-To: Forum for Physics Educators To: PHYS-L@lists.nau.edu Subject: [SPAM:79%] have fun Who said all CF claims are honest? Have you been bombarded with proposals to get rich by helping somebody to transfer millions to your account? I received about twenty e-mail messages of that kind in April. But the scheme below is quite new to me. Who would suspect that the inventor of cold fusion was Akume? Ludwik Kowalski = = = = = = = = = From: Barrister Bernard Akume Akume Inneh Law Firm Legal Practitioners 10, Adelabu Street Surulere, Lagos Nigeria Contact: Barrister Bernard Akume Tel: +234-80-23222528 Fax: 1 309 423 4393< Email: bakume@1stcounsel.com Confidential Proposal/Investment Assistance for Cold Fusion Energy Device. Greetings to you in the name of the most high God, from my beloved country Nigeria. I am sorry and I solicit your permission into your privacy. I am Barrister Bernard Akume, lawyer to the late Dr. Koffi Abacha, a brilliant Nigerian physicist. My former client, late Dr. Koffi Abacha, died in a mysterious plane crash in the year 1994 on the way to a scientific conference to make an announcement of the utmost importance to mankind. He was planning to present a paper regarding his extensive work on cold fusion. It is said the cold fusion device he had developed, produced 10-times more energy than the energy source that fed into it. The device was about the size of a steamer trunk. Dr. Stanley Pons and Professor Martin Fleischman of Southampton University in the UK consulted the late Dr. Abacha regarding their ongoing cold fusion experiments. While enroute to the Paris scientific conference, the plane carrying Dr. Koffi Abacha mysteriously exploded over the ocean. Without the wise Dr. Abachas guidance, Dr. Pons and Professor Fleischman made no further progress in their cold fusion research. Upon the death of my former client and unknown to his colleagues, two trunk boxes came into my possession. One trunk box contains some type of energy producing device. The late Doctor called it his cold fusion fuel cell. The second trunk box contains thousands of pages of scientific papers and notes. The trunk boxes had been placed in storage, for safe keeping, at a Lagos security storage firm in 1994 just before the late Dr. Abacha left on his ill fated flight to Paris. The security storage firm does not know the actual content of the trunk boxes. My client and I told them that the boxes contain old African artifacts to be delivered to a client outside the country via Air Courier Services. For now it is only you and I that is having knowledge of this wonderful invention. The only assistance I require from you is to help me send these trunks out of Nigeria and receive these trunk boxes in either Sydney, London or New York, depending on your country of agreement. Once these trunk boxes are out of Nigeria, I shall seek your advice in obtaining a local patent in your name and licensing the device to investors. I need $ 10,000 U.S. dollars to pay past due storage fees, freight charges, and possible bribes to local customs officers. Once this device is licensed, the resulting funds shall be disbursed accordingly as follows: 25-percent for the recipient (you) from the total sum. 2-percent for the courier officer in the country where you shall receive the trunk boxes. 5-percent set aside from the entire sum for expenses incurred by both parties in due course of executing this transaction (home and abroad). 68-percent for me. If you are not satisfied with the percentage sharing of the fund feel free to let me know. In compliance with this you are to immediately forward to me by mail the following: Your full names and address Confidential telephone and fax numbers. With this information I will immediately commence all necessary documentation for a successful shipment of the first trunk box to your country of choice as all the modalities have already been worked out by me. I will also give you full details of this whole transaction which I have already perfected in due course. Please note that you are to treat this with utmost confidentiality willing or not willing to assist me in this transaction as nobody knows about this invention and I am still an active lawyer in this country. THE CHOICE IS YOURS, IF I WERE YOU I WOULD, BECAUSE IT WILL COST YOU LITTLE OR NOTHING TO ACHIEVE THIS AND THE BENEFIT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER. Remain blessed in the name of GOD. Yours faithfully, Barrister Bernard Akume Email: bakume@1stcounsel.com = = = = = = = = = See these URL: http://tonytalkstech.com/cat_digital_underground.php http://www.theregister.com/2004/05/05/419_cold_fusion/ Lester Haines http://www.sacm.co.za/Feature.asp?NewsID=7654&Cont=News http://gilb.nethence.com/hoax/ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ AND HERE IS ANOTHER ONE: Subject: Nigerian Astronaut Wants To Come Home Dr. Bakare Tunde Astronautics Project Manager National Space Research and Development Agency (NASRDA) Plot 555 Misau Street PMB 437 Garki, Abuja, FCT NIGERIA Dear Mr. Sir, REQUEST FOR ASSISTANCE-STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL I am Dr. Bakare Tunde, the cousin of Nigerian Astronaut, Air Force Major Abacha Tunde. He was the first African in space when he made a secret flight to the Salyut 6 space station in 1979. He was on a later Soviet spaceflight, Soyuz T-16Z to the secret Soviet military space station Salyut 8T in 1989. He was stranded there in 1990 when the Soviet Union was dissolved. His other Soviet crew members returned to earth on the Soyuz T-16Z, but his place was taken up by return cargo. There have been occasional Progrez supply flights to keep him going since that time. He is in good humor, but wants to come home. In the 14-years since he has been on the station, he has accumulated flight pay and interest amounting to almost $ 15,000,000 American Dollars. This is held in a trust at the Lagos National Savings and Trust Association. If we can obtain access to this money, we can place a down payment with the Russian Space Authorities for a Soyuz return flight to bring him back to Earth. I am told this will cost $ 3,000,000 American Dollars. In order to access the his trust fund we need your assistance. Consequently, my colleagues and I are willing to transfer the total amount to your account or subsequent disbursement, since we as civil servants are prohibited by the Code of Conduct Bureau (Civil Service Laws) from opening and/ or operating foreign accounts in our names. Needless to say, the trust reposed on you at this juncture is enormous. In return, we have agreed to offer you 20 percent of the transferred sum, while 10 percent shall be set aside for incidental expenses (internal and external) between the parties in the course of the transaction. You will be mandated to remit the balance 70 percent to other accounts in due course. Kindly expedite action as we are behind schedule to enable us include downpayment in this financial quarter. Please acknowledge the receipt of this message via my direct number 234 (0) 9-234-2220 only. Yours Sincerely, Dr. Bakare Tunde Astronautics Project Manager tip@nasrda.gov.ng http://www.nasrda.gov.ng/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 10 09:16:10 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4AGFq53030057; Mon, 10 May 2004 09:15:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4AGFnHE030016; Mon, 10 May 2004 09:15:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 09:15:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 17:15:08 +0100 From: "Chambers, Robert (UK)" Subject: Electron Power Systems? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thread-Topic: Electron Power Systems? thread-index: AcQ2qkcXHid0XaJWEdimBgAIAql12g== Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 May 2004 16:15:08.0725 (UTC) FILETIME=[F6906E50:01C436A9] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id i4AGFT53029730 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54374 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Anyone heard of these people? http://www.electronpowersystems.com/index.html Who We Are Electron Power Systems(tm) (EPS) has discovered a clean, non-polluting energy technology. It will enable clean electricity production for one-tenth its cost today. It will potentially lead to low-mass, high-energy power for cars, aircraft and space launch vehicles. It does not use fossil fuels, and does not produce pollution. EPS has discovered a plasma toroid that remains stable without magnetic confinement, by using background gas pressure for confinement instead. These plasma toroids are observed to remain stable for thousands of times longer than classical plasma toroids, which opens the way for new clean energy applications. In the 1970's, Dr. Wells at the U of Miami collided two plasma toroids to produce low-level fusion energy in the TRISOPS system. The amount of energy produced was limited by the short duration time of the plasma toroids used, as well as their low density and their low level of energy. The new EPS stable plasma toroids will overcome each of these limitations, and will potentially produce practical fusion with no magnetic containment required, thus producing a microfusion reactor. Our challenge is to adapt the new stable plasma toroid to the TRISOPS method. We are an early stage company working to develop the microfusion reactor. From this will come new applications, including a practical microfusion electricity generator, a low-cost space launch vehicle, a high-kinetic energy anti-missile beam, and practical zero-emission cars and jet aircraft. These are detailed on our applications page. EPS is moving to commercialize these concepts. EPS has assembled a team of engineers, plasma physicists, and a strategic partner in a large aerospace company. We are working on proof of concept demonstrations of the applications. EPS plans to build a laboratory demonstration unit in three years, and then the first commercial prototype. Technology Overview Our technology is based on a plasma toroid that remains stable in atmosphere with no external magnetic containment that we call the electron spiral toroid (EST). The photo at right is an EST captured on video in an EPS laboratory. The physics of the EST have been confirmed by independent scientists as described in the technology page, and in the published literature. EPS produces EST's in the laboratory, and can accelerate them using magnetic field energy. This acceleration forms the basis for many applications. To see how, check out our technology page. Commercial Potential Without overstating the obvious potential, the EST concept will change the energy industry over the next fifteen years. EPS owns all the patents, with five issued to date. To complete the commercial development, we are seeking investors and partners to provide early stage development capital . Rob -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html mail /\ - against microsoft attachments ******************************************************************** This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or distribute its contents to any other person. ******************************************************************** From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 10 09:43:09 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4AGh053007739; Mon, 10 May 2004 09:43:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4AGgxFx007718; Mon, 10 May 2004 09:42:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 09:42:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <409FB172.9080302@pobox.com> Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 12:44:34 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: (OT) New physics/relativity website References: <409D9792.4020305@pobox.com> <014401c435f3$0a0f0ca0$8837fea9@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <014401c435f3$0a0f0ca0$8837fea9@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54375 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >> sal wrote about: >> http://physicsinsights.org > > Nice work! Thanks! > ... > IF one wanted to suggest a universal topography, this is a good > start. Should you want to go further afield with this, check out - > not only this particular topology, but the nice applet which allows > one to rotate and investigate: > > http://www.uta.edu/optics/sudduth/4d/minimal/catenoid/catenoid.htm That is a really cool page. I confess, though, that I'm not completely sure what you're thinking of with regard to a universal topology. The universe as a whole seems to be simply connected, which the catenoid is not. (On the other hand, the space around a black hole might be reasonably represented this way, since the part inside the event horizon isn't "really there" in some sense.) Or am I just being dense? BTW, just to state the obvious, in Euclidean space the surface of rotation of a semicircle -- a sphere -- is also minimal, but not in the same sense: It's the minimal surface which contains a given volume, rather than the minimal surface which spans a given gap. Cheers... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 10 11:55:56 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4AItf53016765; Mon, 10 May 2004 11:55:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4AItbqY016727; Mon, 10 May 2004 11:55:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 11:55:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220045110185541290@ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l@eskimo.com" Subject: DOE and CF review in April Physics Today Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 11:55:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8aebb496ce2da071a84a8e219a56be6b8900f0771c95f4286350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54376 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > [Original Message] May 10, 2004 Vortex, I perused belatedly the April issue of Physics Today about two weeks ago. The monthly issue of AIP (American Institute of Physics) has written, under Issues and Update, that "DOE Warms To Cold Fusion". The page and a half article covers most of the details already mentioned in various news outlets. Some time has passed since DOE's announcement and I haven't heard of any updates. I assume there are forces working to kill the subject --- particualrly in this election year and all the other scandels emerging. -ak- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 10 11:55:30 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4AItPjj022867; Mon, 10 May 2004 11:55:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4AItNqE022845; Mon, 10 May 2004 11:55:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 11:55:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001301c436bc$8e5e1ae0$8837fea9@pacbell.net> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" References: <409D9792.4020305@pobox.com> <014401c435f3$0a0f0ca0$8837fea9@pacbell.net> <409FB172.9080302@pobox.com> Subject: Re: (OT) New physics/relativity website Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 11:28:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id i4AItIjj022774 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54377 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence writes, > I confess, though, that I'm not completely sure what you're thinking of > with regard to a universal topology. The universe as a whole seems to > be simply connected, which the catenoid is not. Not really. We (Earth) are arguable only 'connected' in 3-space to every object in the universe whose light is blue-shifted WRT to our galaxy. That would consist of not only what is known as our "local group" of galaxies but everything which is also attracted to the "Great Attractor," located in the night sky at about Sagittarius, 14 degrees and two minutes. For those who don't have a clear generalized picture of this situation (which I will label as 'our 3-space'), consider this hierarchy. The Milky Way and Andromeda galaxies are the dominant structures in a cluster called the Local Group which is, in turn, an outlying member of the Virgo supercluster. Andromeda is presumably almost a mirror image of the Milky Way about 2.2 million light-years away - and is speeding toward us at 200,000 miles per hour. But on top of that, our entire Local Group is hurtling toward the center of the Virgo cluster at one million miles per hour. The Virgo cluster lies some 50 million light years from Earth and is in turn speeding towards a gigantic unseen mass named The Great Attractor - which is composed of upwards to 10,000 galaxies the size of the Milky Way. We are 'virtually' blue-shifted to the light of each and every one of these stars - perhaps one quadrillion solar sized stars, 10^15 in total. Still, this is likely no more than one part in 10^7 of the supposed mass of the universe. But the very fact that we are forever connected to everyone of these 10^15 sols allows us to consider this small slice of reality as possessing all the features of reality. It can be called "our 3-space" and the other 99.999... % of the universe cannot - All of that other mass is in another dimension - and arguably NOT connected to us in any relevant way... except time. It may even be a mirror of time. Consequently, it is my belief no assumption can be made about our 'connectivity' to any mass which is red-shifted WRT us (i.e. by way of The Great Attractor). We might as well be looking into a hall of mirrors when we see red-shifted light. However, any particular 3-space reality must be instantaneously spherical, but what is the accumulated topology of all of these 3-spaces WRT the rest of the universe? Are they overlapping? nested ? onion-peel-like? unknowable? A while back I posted a draft of a piece about this topology that didn't draw any comment. Not surprising - this is not a forum on cosmology. But since you brought it up, I will include some of it as follows: The most accurate, and most puzzling, large-scale observation relevant to the visible universe is the now well-known pattern of hot and cold spots in the cosmic microwave background radiation. This particular radiation pattern is indeed the key to our topological identity. This elliptical patterning shows what the Universe looked like shortly after the putative "Big Bang." And none of it is spherical - it's all ovate, but mathematically it ought to be spherical as all unbounded explosion must expand equally in all directions - so where are the spheres? One simplistic but accurate way to explain this is that the cosmos is finite but has an overall topography which is stretched out into a long funnel, with a narrow tube at one end (the immediate past) flaring out into a bell (the present). http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994879 This visualization tells us why the spheres now appear elliptical. But it is stunningly different from the accepted view of an "expanding balloon" type of topology which, although widely accepted by cosmologists, cannot be correct. Furthermore, this horn topology is itself surely a limited approximation. It is accurate as far as it goes, but it doesn't go far enough. Consider instead that our visible 3-space is the wide end of a Catenoid rather than a horn or funnel. Here is what a Catenoid can look like, but the "hole" can shrink to a point (0,0,0,) http://www.uta.edu/optics/sudduth/4d/minimal/catenoid/catenoid.htm Additionally, there are some good theoretical reasons why, if our universe is truly a 4-space universe, that it must mathematically be a "minimal surface" in every 3-space reality, with the further presumptions that no single Big Bang need have transpired, lots of smaller ones happening near the same point in time works out just as well...but the choices for minimal surface topologies are rather slim, and the catenoid is ideal for any number of reasons...but what about the 'other end' of the catenoid - the mirror image of our 3-space? Hmmm... "Reciprocal space" ? Dirac's Sea" ? And what about the whole universe in 4-space - is there any topology that connects all the ingrained catenoids and still allows for embedded higher dimensions? Yup. Try on the "horn torus" for size... http://mathworld.wolfram.com/HornTorus.html > the space around a black hole might be reasonably represented this way, > since the part inside the event horizon isn't "really there" in some > sense.) Or am I just being dense? Hah! I love cosmic word plays. No, you're being entirely accurate - but for only accumulated space-time whereas the black hole is just that single vertex point (0,0,0) in space-time. > BTW, just to state the obvious, in Euclidean space the surface of > rotation of a semicircle -- a sphere -- is also minimal, but not in the > same sense: It's the minimal surface which contains a given volume, > rather than the minimal surface which spans a given gap. Yes. That is all consistent with any 3-space being instantaneously spherical. More later... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 11 06:51:31 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4BDpRa0018922; Tue, 11 May 2004 06:51:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4BDpEeh018851; Tue, 11 May 2004 06:51:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 06:51:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20040511095045.01f04ea0@mail.lenr-canr.org> X-Sender: logs@lenr-canr.org@mail.lenr-canr.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 09:53:27 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: "Hybrid Mileage Comes Up Short" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54378 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Surprising, disappointing results. See: http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,63413,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_1 Ordinary cars get roughly 75% of their EPA gas mileage rating. Some Hydrid cars appear to be getting ~67%. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 11 07:50:24 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4BEoHa0003925; Tue, 11 May 2004 07:50:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4BEoGJh003916; Tue, 11 May 2004 07:50:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 07:50:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <8310a94d-9b2e-4470-9410-6968af3503a4> Message-ID: <002501c43767$826e6a90$4259ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <6.0.3.0.2.20040511095045.01f04ea0@mail.lenr-canr.org> Subject: Re: "Hybrid Mileage Comes Up Short" Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 10:51:53 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <8Ch0oC.A.D9.ngOoAB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54379 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" > Surprising, disappointing results. See: > > http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,63413,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_1 > > Ordinary cars get roughly 75% of their EPA gas mileage rating. Some Hydrid > cars appear to be getting ~67%. > > - Jed Jed, you should be suprised and disappointed after all your years in parsing claims and counterclaims about LENR measurements? The article makes clear that the EPA measurements are based on expectations of the relation between emissions and gas consumption of automobles based on designs before sophisticated engine management in conventional cars. One of the virtues of the hybrid is that the engine can be [I do not say always is] operated at a steady speed and optimized for performance at that speed, while the batteries and electric drive take care of acceleration and deceleration, where a gasoline engine is pushed outside of a range of optimum operation. Since the hybrid engine is optimized, and has low emissions, the EPA estimates of fuel mileage will be higher than projections based on conventional engines. This is a fault of the required rating rules, not hype by the manufacturers. As with ordinary cars, fuel consumption is strongly related to operating conditions. No question that hybrids have long-term virtues and are not a final solution. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 11 08:17:00 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4BFGua0011369; Tue, 11 May 2004 08:16:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4BFGtcw011353; Tue, 11 May 2004 08:16:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 08:16:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000f01c4376a$dcf4ac60$8837fea9@pacbell.net> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.0.3.0.2.20040511095045.01f04ea0@mail.lenr-canr.org> Subject: Re: "Hybrid Mileage Comes Up Short" Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 08:15:57 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id i4BFGma0011309 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54380 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Surprising, disappointing results. And also surprising *factually inaccuracies* - if not intentionally slanted journalism.... ... particularly when compared to an earlier story which also appeared in Wired, and which is more in keeping with the results that I am hearing from a neighbor who actually owns and drive the Prius every day ( there is an 8 months waiting list for the Prius here in Cal. and that has raised some eyebrows in Detroit) See this Wired story, where the emphasis goes in the other extreme: "new Prius gets as much as 84 miles per gallon for driving in Japan, and its mileage is 55 miles per gallon under U.S. driving conditions," http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,60667,00.html?tw=wn_story_related My neighbor claims to get over 60 mpg by using a few simple tricks to keep the gasoline engine off for longer. This is about what actual owners from the Prius forum say they can get if they try: http://priusonline.com/ John Gartner, the author of the *very sloppily researched* Wired piece which slams Hybrids, apparently didn't even take the time to even read some of the sources he cites, including the Real Mileage Database, where the bottom line actual mileage is reported as: Hybrid ... 58.6 Non-Hybrid .... 20.3 http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/ That nearly 3-to-1 ratio should be the Headline for this piece - not some crappy whine from a disgruntled owner. Every car-make has a few disgruntled owners, but not every magazine has such slipshod writing. Shame-on-you, Wired... for allowing this kind of trash. Hummm.... Wonder *why* Gartner ignores that very important factoid about comparative mileage in favor of a few anecdotal irregularities? Who knows... maybe he is driving a new Hummer, on permanent loan from an anonymous source...? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 11 08:23:32 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4BFNHKd021755; Tue, 11 May 2004 08:23:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4BFNCAu021702; Tue, 11 May 2004 08:23:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 08:23:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20040511110848.01f0ba78@mail.lenr-canr.org> X-Sender: logs@lenr-canr.org@mail.lenr-canr.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 11:23:04 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: "Hybrid Mileage Comes Up Short" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54381 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: > Jed, you should be suprised and disappointed after all your years in parsing > claims and counterclaims about LENR measurements? The article makes clear > that the EPA measurements are based on expectations of the relation between > emissions and gas consumption of automobles based on designs before > sophisticated engine management in conventional cars. I am a little disappointed in the performance of the cars, not the EPA algorithm. Apparently the Honda gets 31.4 MPG with city driving over short distances. That is not even as good as my 1994 Geo Metro (35 MPG - also short distances). Of course emissions are lower, and the new cars are much safer than a Metro. A guy I know commutes in a hybrid over Atlanta highways. He says gas mileage is "fabulous" and the car has no trouble keeping up with our local 70 mph kamikaze-style freeway free-for-all driving style. The EPA algorithms sound like they need updating to account for the changing technology. They should stop confusing emissions and mileage. The fact that they overstate mileage for all models because they simulate ideal conditions does not bother me, as long as everyone understands the situation. But they should get ~75% for normal ICE and ~75% for hybrid ICE as well. > Since the hybrid engine is optimized, and has low emissions, the EPA > estimates of fuel mileage will be higher than projections based on > conventional engines. This is a fault of the required rating rules, not hype > by the manufacturers. Yes. Nobody is blaming the manufacturers, but I did get the impression that actual mileage is better than 31.4. I have asked the editor of EVWorld what he things of this report. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 11 08:51:03 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4BFouKd031680; Tue, 11 May 2004 08:50:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4BFolsO031601; Tue, 11 May 2004 08:50:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 08:50:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40A0F73B.9050900@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 11:54:35 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: "Hybrid Mileage Comes Up Short" References: <6.0.3.0.2.20040511095045.01f04ea0@mail.lenr-canr.org> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040511095045.01f04ea0@mail.lenr-canr.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54382 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Ordinary cars get roughly 75% of their EPA gas mileage rating. My Echo is in its fifth year of operation and, under certain conditions, my mileage has exceed the EPA ratings. But I do cheat a bit. I use synthetic motor oil and a PTFE additive: http://tufoil.com/consintr.html I also make extensive use of "Georgia Overdrive" by disengaging my manual transmission on downhill runs. Of course, my mileage suffers by 5 mpg with the AC running. However, the enviromental ratings exceed those of CA, hence, the car actually removes some pollutants from the atmosphere. The car has a timing chain and no distributor (each plug has it's own igniter) and is actually larger on the inside than the outside. :-) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 11 12:27:49 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4BJRga0025987; Tue, 11 May 2004 12:27:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4BJR0qp025800; Tue, 11 May 2004 12:27:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 12:27:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20040511151759.01f0fd20@mail.lenr-canr.org> X-Sender: logs@lenr-canr.org@mail.lenr-canr.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 15:27:52 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Hybrid-hybrid cars Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <4k3q-C.A.DTG.DkSoAB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54383 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I read at EVWorld that another kind of hybrid automobile is being tested. It has larger batteries and can be charged from an electric outlet at home. In other words, it is more like a "pure" electric car than a regular hybrid. It is called a "plug-in hybrid." - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 11 12:38:08 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4BJbuKd001084; Tue, 11 May 2004 12:37:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4BJbawu000997; Tue, 11 May 2004 12:37:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 12:37:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Erikbaard@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 15:37:24 EDT Subject: Mexican Pilots See UFOs (Raw Video) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1084304244" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54384 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -------------------------------1084304244 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mexican Pilots See UFOs (Raw Video) http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20040511135209990001 -------------------------------1084304244 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mexican Pilots See UFOs (Raw Video)
 
-------------------------------1084304244-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 11 12:56:00 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4BJtoKd007352; Tue, 11 May 2004 12:55:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4BJtn23007335; Tue, 11 May 2004 12:55:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 12:55:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007e01c43791$1a9b7dc0$8837fea9@pacbell.net> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.0.3.0.2.20040511151759.01f0fd20@mail.lenr-canr.org> Subject: Re: Hybrid-hybrid cars Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 12:49:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id i4BJtfKd007262 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54385 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell writes, > I read at EVWorld that another kind of hybrid automobile is being tested. > It has larger batteries and can be charged from an electric outlet at home. > In other words, it is more like a "pure" electric car than a regular > hybrid. It is called a "plug-in hybrid." Here is a PDF about the plug-in hybrid initiative from EPRI - http://www.e2i.org/docs/Plug-in_Hybrid.pdf Apparently, those who have studied this believe that a plug-in hybrid - kind of like the Prius but with bigger batteries could *cut the amount of gasoline consumed in the United States by more than 50 percent.* Wow. Even if it only shifts the ecological burden away from the individual and towards gas-fired power plants, that is a good thing - they are cleaner and more efficient than any car can be. "About 47 percent of all miles put on vehicles in a day are within the first 20 miles of travel," said Galen Suppes, associate professor of chemical engineering at MU. "Furthermore, about 50 percent of the vehicles travel 20 miles or less per day, and this 20 mile distance is usually in inner-city travel where fuel economy for conventional internal combustion engines is poor and emissions have their greatest adverse affects." It seems like a big step in the right direction... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 11 13:57:41 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4BKvVsp026435; Tue, 11 May 2004 13:57:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4BKvTRC026406; Tue, 11 May 2004 13:57:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 13:57:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Erikbaard@aol.com Message-ID: <1cd.208783cb.2dd29830@aol.com> Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 16:57:20 EDT Subject: Mexican UFO video debunked? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1084309040" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54386 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -------------------------------1084309040 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -------------------------------1084309040 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -------------------------------1084309040-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 11 14:16:19 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4BLG9sp001237; Tue, 11 May 2004 14:16:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4BLG8uU001214; Tue, 11 May 2004 14:16:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 14:16:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40A14381.4070207@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 17:20:01 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mexican Pilots See UFOs (Raw Video) References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54387 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Erikbaard@aol.com wrote: > Mexican Pilots See UFOs (Raw Video) > > http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20040511135209990001 This appears to be for AOL members only. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 11 14:18:50 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4BLIasp002041; Tue, 11 May 2004 14:18:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4BLIXp4002010; Tue, 11 May 2004 14:18:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 14:18:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40A14415.1000905@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 17:22:29 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mexican UFO video debunked? References: <1cd.208783cb.2dd29830@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <1cd.208783cb.2dd29830@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54388 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Erikbaard@aol.com wrote: (nothing, you seem to do this a lot lately :-) If it gets debunked, you'll see it here: http://virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates where all the UFOlogists hang out. Scroll down and check yesterday and today's messages. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 11 14:22:33 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4BLMSVI027901; Tue, 11 May 2004 14:22:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4BLMQkp027878; Tue, 11 May 2004 14:22:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 14:22:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40A14584.5010006@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 17:28:36 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mexican UFO video debunked? References: <1cd.208783cb.2dd29830@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <1cd.208783cb.2dd29830@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54389 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stills are available here: http://rense.com/general52/deff.htm There is a certain symmetry to the images which make them questionable. However, they show up on both FLIR and RADAR; but, not visible light. Good stealth technology, eh? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 11 14:37:02 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4BLavVI032124; Tue, 11 May 2004 14:36:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4BLaubo032102; Tue, 11 May 2004 14:36:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 14:36:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40A148DC.80107@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 17:42:52 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mexican UFO video debunked? References: <1cd.208783cb.2dd29830@aol.com> <40A14584.5010006@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: <40A14584.5010006@rtpatlanta.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54390 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > Stills are available here: > > http://rense.com/general52/deff.htm > > There is a certain symmetry to the images which make them > questionable. However, they show up on both FLIR and RADAR; but, not > visible light. Good stealth technology, eh? Okay, here's the video, approximately 20 Mbyte in .mpg. I retract my 'questionable' comment. http://www.virtuallystrange.com/ufo/mexico/mexico-03-05-04.mpg From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 11 18:26:41 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4C1QTsp005580; Tue, 11 May 2004 18:26:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4C1QPcp005521; Tue, 11 May 2004 18:26:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 18:26:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20040511212023.01f0fdf8@mail.lenr-canr.org> X-Sender: logs@lenr-canr.org@mail.lenr-canr.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 21:26:28 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Page in Italian quotes Carlo Rubbia on CF Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <4mLPuB.A.FWB.A1XoAB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54391 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: See: http://www.xmx.it/fusionefredda.htm Babblefish makes the meaning fairly clear: http://babelfish.altavista.com/ - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 11 19:28:35 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4C2SMPl025841; Tue, 11 May 2004 19:28:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4C2SKf3025798; Tue, 11 May 2004 19:28:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 19:28:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40A18CAD.6@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 22:32:13 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Page in Italian quotes Carlo Rubbia on CF References: <6.0.3.0.2.20040511212023.01f0fdf8@mail.lenr-canr.org> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040511212023.01f0fdf8@mail.lenr-canr.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54392 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > See: > > http://www.xmx.it/fusionefredda.htm > > Babblefish makes the meaning fairly clear: You can Google this. Select "Language Tools" to the right of the search box on the main Google page. Input the URL to the "Translate Web Page" box and select your languages. Fewer steps than using Altavista. Not to mention, I hate slimey fish in my ear. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 12 03:01:56 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4CA1jf9016590; Wed, 12 May 2004 03:01:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4CA1gwg016563; Wed, 12 May 2004 03:01:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 03:01:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002201c43808$41273980$c864a8c0@win98> From: To: Subject: Some Mars close-ups Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 13:01:31 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54393 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is some close-ups from Mars microscopic imager pictures that display interesting features. Opportunity Sol 105: Hair and black Horodyskia(http://www.earth.monash.edu.au/PreCSite/Horodysk.htm) like feature on a spherule (frame size ~ 5x5 mm) http://orchestra.webhostme.com/images/1M137504204EFF2208P2956M2M1-frame.png Flower like feature on rock at the lower right. http://orchestra.webhostme.com/images/1M137504929EFF2208P2936M2M1-FRAME-300X.PNG Spirit Sol 105: http://orchestra.webhostme.com/images/2m135687606eff3000p2956m2m1-frame.png Spirit Sol 116: http://orchestra.webhostme.com/images/2m136662525eff37cap2957m2m1-frame1.png Opportunity Sol 43: http://orchestra.webhostme.com/images/2m130169254eff0514p2943m2m1-2m130169446eff0514p2943m2m1-3D-pair.png Pair images are suitable fro cross-eying 3-D view. Wrapped features: http://orchestra.webhostme.com/images/2m136662525eff37cap2957m2m1-frame1.png http://orchestra.webhostme.com/images/2m136662466eff37cap2957m2m1-frame1.png Thread-like features became part of the solid surfaces. These threads typically well adhere with surfaces. http://orchestra.webhostme.com/images/11-ss-11-interpen-B038R1-b.png Frame showing grains spread on solid surfaces may not be merely sand. http://orchestra.webhostme.com/images/PIA05237-aligned-grains.png Some grains appearing attached to stem. http://orchestra.webhostme.com/images/xpe_1M130314030EFF0400P2939M2M1-B025R1-attached-spherules.png Opportunity Sol 84: A filamentary object uncovered between round objects when the spot disturbed after the instrument pressure (with two camera focuses) http://orchestra.webhostme.com/images/new-specie1.gif http://orchestra.webhostme.com/images/new-specie2.gif Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 12 19:26:25 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4D2QK06031223; Wed, 12 May 2004 19:26:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4D2Q5v1031137; Wed, 12 May 2004 19:26:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 19:26:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003101c43889$2668e4a0$1b81b341@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Frolov's Chronal Propulsion Theory Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 20:25:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9402ca6c858acc0e5f6cb44baf70a0ce4a3350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54394 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Seems that others see the potential for using Hertz's plates in parallel to create an electric dipole that can swim through the aether. Three-point attitude control capacitors working on the relaxation oscillator principle is probably required. http://www.faraday.ru/work.html "The Work can be Created by Means of Potential Field" "The concept of a physical vacuum as an energy source is proved mathematically [1]. It is recognized that space itself has some inner structure and it can be used as a source of energy if some process is organized to change the structure of space. The existence of this reality is described by means of a density probability function for energy [2]. So, any space is the result of some energy process and there is no space that has no energy at all. Some power process can be designed in any point of space by means of an energy transformation. " Note references to Hal Puthoff in bibliography. Photo of Hertz's Plates: An open capacitor (Electric Dipole) http://www.ph.unimelb.edu.au/staffresources/lecdem/ei3.htm Photos of Marconi's Plate-Earth (Electric Dipole) transmitter. http://www.newscotland1398.net/nfld1901/marconi-nfld.html Seems to me that T. T. Brown was on to something. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 13 08:34:53 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4DFYl06029720; Thu, 13 May 2004 08:34:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4DFYZM7029671; Thu, 13 May 2004 08:34:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 08:34:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20040513083759.051589e8@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 08:39:39 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Subject: Re: DOE and CF review in April Physics Today Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1632470546==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54395 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_1632470546==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Dear Akira, A few days you posted the following: >Some time has passed since DOE's announcement and I haven't heard of any > >updates. I assume there are forces working to kill the subject --- > >particualrly in this election year and all the other scandels emerging. My comments: I wouldn't assume the worst - not at all. I'll give my opinion. Gene hopefully will give his too. I would actually venture to guess that no news is good news for now. In my opinion, Decker and company would not benefit from a continued glare of the spotlight right now. Sure, it was newsworthy that DOE is reconsidering it. But their staff needs to work carefully in many ways to see if there is something worthwhile (in the official government view), and report it when they have their own assessment to stand behind - and not a moment before. I, and I'm sure many of us, would love to know incremental details, and have re-assurances that things are finally moving in a positive direction. Based on your concern, I initiated several phone calls to some of the people involved. I reveived very sparse information from sources who do not wish to be in the public spotlight. What I can share, is my sense that things are moving along slowly, consistently, and fairly from the perspective of the cold fusion community. As you may know, I have been tracking this since November 4 of last year. Are there people within DOE that are fiercely opposed to the idea of cold fusion? That is certainly is logical to assume and concurs with what I have heard, however, it is not my sense that they are in the group which is currently performing the evaluation. And its probably better that they are not alarmed by a media frenzy - as I come to understand. Here's a question we should ask: Why would the DOE finally care to have an interest in cold fusion? They are certainly under no obligation to do so. My answer is in the category of "Ockham's Razor:" Because they need alternatives to oil. I watched Spencer Abraham, Secretary of Energy on CSPAN a few weeks ago get hammered by congress for solutions to "gasoline prices". (Few were actually interested in energy R&D.) Congress seems to care less where the oil or natural gas comes from, be it Iraq, your own backyard, a national park or a wildlife refuge. My sense is that Abraham and Decker know what's coming (Peak Oil), despite the fact that we just purchased the world's second largest oil field, and that they know that real options, beyond oil, are very limited. I suspect that they consider CF a long-shot, but a real option, nevertheless. Here's another perspective on the situation: 2004 is very different from 1989. On March 23 1989 the scientific world, and its financiers were in a state of shock, turmoil and uncertainty. It was a circus-like atmosphere with strong people on both sides of the debate fighting for their careers, reputations and funding. Hence, congress and ERAB (no longer in existence) came to help sort things out. Uggh. I know you are surprised that you've not heard anything further in the news, but I am not. This is my sense of it. In 2004, cold fusion is coming back into the spotlight -- ever so slowly and cautiously. Examples: The NYT article (buried on pg 8), the Physics Today article (nebulous with somewhat idiotic inferences), the New Scientist article (obscure placement and very low-key title.) The media is not reacting like they did in 1989. They are taking this very slowly, very cautiously - and this, despite the enthusiasm that I and perhaps you have, is probably a good thing. The public, and mass media, needs time to understand this in order to get behind it. I know the the press is interested but cautious. The DOE media relations office was flooded with phone calls in response to our press release on March 22nd, as we were told by an angry DOE PR staffer. But only few news outlets have picked up the trail, and its clear that those who have, are waiting and watching to see what will come out of the DOE evaluation. Yet another perspective I can offer you: Why would the DOE bother to look into CF if it was not serious about it? There is really no public awareness, no public debate about this right now, most people consider CF dead and gone. DOE was under no obligation in 2003 to start looking into CF like they were in 1989. Surely a letter from Peter Hagelstein and perhaps a phone call from Vernon Ehlers (R-MI) by themselves would not cause the DOE to take such a political risk and bother to look at CF. Again in my opinion, DOE does not need to do this to make Peter, Vernon or the cold fusion enthusiasts happy, it's my bet that DOE sincerely wants to see whatever potential CF may have. What also gives me hope is that it is my understanding that Peter Hagelstein's fall 2003 letter to Abraham was not the first (recent) initiative by the DOE to look into cold fusion, but that some of their staffers had expressed interest in cold fusion earlier in the summer, but did not have the political ability to initiate the subject prior to Abraham's directive to Decker. I have a hard time imagining that another "Huizenga" will be allowed to railroad this review like he did in 1989. Things are different now. When was the last time you read an article about CF in the NYT without a taint or an idiotic comment from a clueless "scientist?" Kenneth Chang's article, not without its flaws, is a milestone, in my opinion. I think the public and media support is poised to support something new, something hopefull. Lord knows we need it. - That's my two cents - Steven B. Krivit New Energy Times Los Angeles, California, USA www.newenergytimes.com Phone: (310) 470-8189 Fax: (310) 470-8190 --=====================_1632470546==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Akira,

A few days you posted the following:

>Some time has passed since DOE's announcement and I haven't heard of any
>updates. I assume there are forces working to kill the subject ---
>particualrly in this election year and all the other scandels emerging.

My comments:

I wouldn't assume the worst - not at all.  I'll give my opinion.  Gene hopefully will give his too.

I would actually venture to guess that no news is good news for now.  In my opinion, Decker and company would not benefit from a continued glare of the spotlight right now. Sure, it was newsworthy that DOE is reconsidering it.  But their staff needs to work carefully in many ways to see if there is something worthwhile (in the official government view), and report it when they have their own assessment to stand behind - and not a moment before. 

I, and I'm sure many of us, would love to know incremental details, and have re-assurances that things are finally moving in a positive direction.

Based on your concern, I initiated several phone calls to some of the people involved.  I reveived very sparse information from sources who do not wish to be in the public spotlight.  What I can share, is my sense that things are moving along slowly, consistently, and fairly from the perspective of the cold fusion community.  As you may know, I have been tracking this since November 4 of last year.

Are there people within DOE that are fiercely opposed to the idea of cold fusion?  That is certainly is logical to assume and concurs with what I have heard, however, it is not my sense that they are in the group which is currently performing the evaluation.  And its probably better that they are not alarmed by a media frenzy - as I come to understand.  Here's a question we should ask: Why would the DOE finally care to have an interest in cold fusion?  They are certainly under no obligation to do so.

My answer is in the category of "Ockham's Razor:"  Because they need alternatives to oil.   I watched Spencer Abraham, Secretary of Energy on CSPAN a few weeks ago get hammered by congress for solutions to "gasoline prices".  (Few were actually interested in energy R&D.) Congress seems to care less where the oil or natural gas comes from, be it Iraq, your own backyard, a national park or a wildlife refuge.

My sense is that Abraham and Decker know what's coming (Peak Oil), despite the fact that we just purchased the world's second largest oil field, and that they know that real options, beyond oil, are very limited.  I suspect that they consider CF a long-shot, but a real option, nevertheless.

Here's another perspective on the situation: 2004 is very different from 1989.  On March 23 1989 the scientific world, and its financiers were in a state of shock, turmoil and uncertainty.  It  was a circus-like atmosphere with strong people on both sides of the debate fighting for their careers, reputations and funding.  Hence, congress and ERAB (no longer in existence) came to help sort things out. Uggh. 

I know you are surprised that you've not heard anything further in the news, but I am not.  This is my sense of it.  In 2004, cold fusion is coming back into the spotlight -- ever so slowly and cautiously.  Examples: The NYT article (buried on pg 8), the Physics Today article (nebulous with somewhat idiotic inferences), the New Scientist article (obscure placement and very low-key title.)  The media is not reacting like they did in 1989.  They are taking this very slowly, very cautiously - and this, despite the enthusiasm that I and perhaps you have, is probably a good thing.  The public, and mass media, needs time to understand this in order to get behind it.  I know the the press is interested but cautious.  The DOE media relations office was flooded with phone calls in response to our press release on March 22nd, as we were told by an angry DOE PR staffer. But only few news outlets have picked up the trail, and its clear that those who have, are waiting and watching to see what will come out of the DOE evaluation.

Yet another perspective I can offer you:  Why would the DOE bother to look into CF if it was not serious about it?  There is really no public awareness, no public debate about this right now, most people consider CF dead and gone.  DOE was under no obligation in 2003 to start looking into CF like they were in 1989.  Surely a letter from Peter Hagelstein and perhaps a phone call from Vernon Ehlers (R-MI) by themselves would not cause the DOE to take such a political risk and bother to look at CF.   Again in my opinion, DOE does not need to do this to make Peter, Vernon or the cold fusion enthusiasts happy, it's my bet that DOE sincerely wants to see whatever potential CF may have.

What also gives me hope is that it is my understanding that Peter Hagelstein's fall 2003 letter to Abraham was not the first (recent) initiative by the DOE to look into cold fusion, but that some of their staffers had expressed interest in cold fusion earlier in the summer, but did not have the political ability to initiate the subject prior to Abraham's directive to Decker.

I have a hard time imagining that another "Huizenga" will be allowed to railroad this review like he did in 1989.  Things are different now. When was the last time you read an article about CF in the NYT without a taint or an idiotic comment from a clueless "scientist?"  Kenneth Chang's article, not without its flaws, is a milestone, in my opinion.  I think the public and media support is poised to support something new, something hopefull.  Lord knows we need it.

- That's my two cents -

Steven B. Krivit
New Energy Times
Los Angeles, California, USA
www.newenergytimes.com
Phone: (310) 470-8189
Fax: (310) 470-8190
--=====================_1632470546==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 13 08:50:59 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4DFol5d024249; Thu, 13 May 2004 08:50:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4DFoh5u024227; Thu, 13 May 2004 08:50:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 08:50:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20040513114937.01f29db8@mail.lenr-canr.org> X-Sender: logs@lenr-canr.org@mail.lenr-canr.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 11:50:38 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Another paper about CR-39 track detection Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54396 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Roussetskiapplicatio.pdf It is amazing how much researchers can learn from this simple tool. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 13 09:40:34 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4DGeI5d008380; Thu, 13 May 2004 09:40:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4DGeGqG008354; Thu, 13 May 2004 09:40:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 09:40:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20040513163844.47757.qmail@web80403.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 09:38:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: OT - more 'semi-official' lies? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54397 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This post is way off-topic in one sense. But maybe not that far off - if it turns out that our government (or someone who thinks they are acting in our national best interest) has now stooped so low as to actually supply explicit disinformation - lies that actually harms its own citizens. If anyone is permitted to lie to us in the name of war, or to save-face with world opinion, then someone will surely lie in the name of petro-commerce, won't they? Anyway, I'm glad I wasn't the only one to think, when I first saw the Berg 'beheading' and then saw his photo - that those two were NOT the same man. You be the judge, after reading about the numerous inconsistencies... http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/4FFA61A3-9C33-4597-A8D9-8079E91F2784.htm From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 13 12:09:53 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4DJ9i5d019685; Thu, 13 May 2004 12:09:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4DJ9gFJ019661; Thu, 13 May 2004 12:09:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 12:09:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40A3C80D.2090309@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 15:10:05 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT - more 'semi-official' lies? References: <20040513163844.47757.qmail@web80403.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20040513163844.47757.qmail@web80403.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54398 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > This post is way off-topic in one sense. > ... > > You be the judge, after reading about the numerous > inconsistencies... > > http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/4FFA61A3-9C33-4597-A8D9-8079E91F2784.htm The linked article describes a video tape which shows a nearly bloodless beheading. (I have not seen the tape, just the description.) That is ... um ... "anomalous", I would say. Highly anomalous. Almost makes it on-topic, really. It reminded me of something I saw in the Wall Street Journal a few days ago. Unfortunately, I didn't save the article, and in fact I only read a snippet of it. But it included a statement to the effect that, "Exit polls have been less accurate recently" Exit polls have been around for at least 40 years and the technology (asking people questions, counting answers) hasn't changed. Why should they suddenly become less accurate? Gee, maybe it's something else that's become less accurate -- but what could it be? I wonder... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 13 13:09:03 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4DK8v5d006498; Thu, 13 May 2004 13:08:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4DK8kee006433; Thu, 13 May 2004 13:08:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 13:08:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: OT - more 'semi-official' lies? Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 16:33:23 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <40A3C80D.2090309@pobox.com> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54399 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi. I think that if you're looking to discuss administration lying, you could do MUCH BETTER than flogging some conspiracy theory... Just about every major policy decision of the current admin is larded with a thick layer of falsehood, my russian friends feel it's getting like the former Soviet Union in its final days. What's on topic for this list is to present actual evidence, rather than spin, and let folks make up their own minds. Here's two places to see the video. http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2004/05/12/beheading_video2/index.html and http://www.cryptome.org/ The later may be swamped with requests right now, but do check them out when the furor subsides they're a great resource. Salon will require you watch a short commercial before seeing the beheading, "This beheading is brought to you by the Ford Explorer..." By the way, your site looked very nice, Steve. All the stuff about Q in the links reminded me of The Transmigration of Timothy Archer. If you're up for it, might I suggest you attack the problem of the force between two rotating objects due to the lense-thirring effect as described in GR. Inquiring minds want to know. K. -----Original Message----- From: Stephen A. Lawrence [mailto:salaw@pobox.com] Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 3:10 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT - more 'semi-official' lies? Jones Beene wrote: > This post is way off-topic in one sense. > ... > > You be the judge, after reading about the numerous > inconsistencies... > > http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/4FFA61A3-9C33-4597-A8D9-8079E91F2784.htm The linked article describes a video tape which shows a nearly bloodless beheading. (I have not seen the tape, just the description.) That is ... um ... "anomalous", I would say. Highly anomalous. Almost makes it on-topic, really. It reminded me of something I saw in the Wall Street Journal a few days ago. Unfortunately, I didn't save the article, and in fact I only read a snippet of it. But it included a statement to the effect that, "Exit polls have been less accurate recently" Exit polls have been around for at least 40 years and the technology (asking people questions, counting answers) hasn't changed. Why should they suddenly become less accurate? Gee, maybe it's something else that's become less accurate -- but what could it be? I wonder... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 13 13:52:24 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4DKqF06000884; Thu, 13 May 2004 13:52:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4DKq9TD000844; Thu, 13 May 2004 13:52:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 13:52:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40A3E08E.6020809@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 16:54:38 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: DOE and CF review in April Physics Today References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040513083759.051589e8@mail.dlsi.net> In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040513083759.051589e8@mail.dlsi.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54400 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steve Krivit wrote: > My answer is in the category of "Ockham's Razor:" Because they need > alternatives to oil. Two news items: Shell restating their confirmed oil reserves downward by 20%, and Aramco saying that they are presently at near peak production (contrary to engineers' estimates), may have shocked some people; and, makes me think that you have hit the nail on the head, Steve. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 13 15:11:20 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4DMBF5d012565; Thu, 13 May 2004 15:11:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4DMBCb5012536; Thu, 13 May 2004 15:11:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 15:11:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40A3F36A.2020101@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 18:15:06 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT - more 'semi-official' lies? References: <20040513163844.47757.qmail@web80403.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20040513163844.47757.qmail@web80403.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54401 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >You be the judge, after reading about the numerous >inconsistencies... > >http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/4FFA61A3-9C33-4597-A8D9-8079E91F2784.htm > It is possible that your source could be somewhat prejudiced? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 13 15:14:13 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4DME35d013504; Thu, 13 May 2004 15:14:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4DME2JK013476; Thu, 13 May 2004 15:14:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 15:14:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40A3F416.3090803@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 18:17:58 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT - more 'semi-official' lies? References: <20040513163844.47757.qmail@web80403.mail.yahoo.com> <40A3C80D.2090309@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <40A3C80D.2090309@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <3lh6G.A.dSD.qM_oAB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54402 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > The linked article describes a video tape which shows a nearly > bloodless beheading. (I have not seen the tape, just the description.) > > That is ... um ... "anomalous", I would say. Highly anomalous. > Almost makes it on-topic, really. From someone who has "slayed" many a chicken for dinner, take a look at the pumping system of the heart and see what happens then you cut BOTH THE ARTERIES AND THE VEINS. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 13 15:20:04 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4DMK006031545; Thu, 13 May 2004 15:20:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4DMJxCl031527; Thu, 13 May 2004 15:19:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 15:19:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40A3F565.8010406@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 18:23:33 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT - more 'semi-official' lies? References: <20040513163844.47757.qmail@web80403.mail.yahoo.com> <40A3C80D.2090309@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <40A3C80D.2090309@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54403 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > The linked article describes a video tape which shows a nearly > bloodless beheading. (I have not seen the tape, just the description.) > > That is ... um ... "anomalous", I would say. Highly anomalous. > Almost makes it on-topic, really. Actually, quite on-topic for a science list. From someone who has "slayed" many a chicken for dinner, take a look at the pumping system of the heart and see what happens then you cut BOTH THE ARTERIES AND THE VEINS. You liberal conspiracists are actually making me sick. I hope to G-d, that the family of Berg don't have to endure this. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 13 15:28:55 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4DMSm06002176; Thu, 13 May 2004 15:28:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4DMSl33002148; Thu, 13 May 2004 15:28:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 15:28:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20040513152427.051b1e98@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 15:34:01 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Subject: Re: DOE and CF review in April Physics Today In-Reply-To: <40A3E08E.6020809@rtpatlanta.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040513083759.051589e8@mail.dlsi.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20040513083759.051589e8@mail.dlsi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1657331593==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54404 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_1657331593==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Terry: >Two news items: Shell restating their confirmed oil reserves downward by 20%, and Aramco saying that they are presently at near peak >production (contrary to engineers' estimates), may have shocked some people; and, makes me think that you have hit the nail on the head, >Steve. How interesting and thanks for the info. I think one of the top Shell executives lost their job recently over the inaccurate estimates if my memory serves me. I didn't know about Aramco -- Wow. www.saudiaramco.com/ "Welcome to Saudi Aramco, a fully integrated international petroleum company with the world's largest oil reserves." The legacy of M. King Hubbert is with us. Can you tell me were you saw the reference for the Aramco data? Thanks, Steve --=====================_1657331593==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Terry:

>Two news items: Shell restating their confirmed oil reserves downward by 20%, and Aramco saying that they are presently at near peak >production (contrary to engineers' estimates), may have shocked some people; and, makes me think that you have hit the nail on the head, >Steve.

How interesting and thanks for the info.  I think one of the top Shell executives lost their job recently over the inaccurate estimates if my memory serves me.

I didn't know about Aramco -- Wow.   www.saudiaramco.com/  "Welcome to Saudi Aramco, a fully integrated international petroleum company with the world's largest oil reserves."  The legacy of M. King Hubbert is with us.


Can you tell me were you saw the reference for the Aramco data?

Thanks,

Steve --=====================_1657331593==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 13 15:44:19 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4DMiE06006613; Thu, 13 May 2004 15:44:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4DMiDmr006597; Thu, 13 May 2004 15:44:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 15:44:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40A3FB34.5010409@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 18:48:20 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: DOE and CF review in April Physics Today References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040513083759.051589e8@mail.dlsi.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20040513083759.051589e8@mail.dlsi.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20040513152427.051b1e98@mail.dlsi.net> In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040513152427.051b1e98@mail.dlsi.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54405 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steve Krivit wrote: > Can you tell me were you saw the reference for the Aramco data? I'm sorry, I don't know when I *first* saw the post. However, here is a supporting post: http://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2001AM/finalprogram/abstract_24628.htm Aramco has been using water injection technology for quite a while now. Their anxiety is a result of the water/oil ratio they are currently generating . . . it's much lower than projected by engineers. Park your SUVs. Terry PS You can probably search the archives in Vortex since I posted on this earlier. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 13 15:56:31 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4DMuR06010527; Thu, 13 May 2004 15:56:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4DMuR63010513; Thu, 13 May 2004 15:56:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 15:56:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40A3FE0E.2090905@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 19:00:30 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: DOE and CF review in April Physics Today References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040513083759.051589e8@mail.dlsi.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20040513083759.051589e8@mail.dlsi.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20040513152427.051b1e98@mail.dlsi.net> <40A3FB34.5010409@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: <40A3FB34.5010409@rtpatlanta.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54406 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > > > Steve Krivit wrote: > >> Can you tell me were you saw the reference for the Aramco data? > > > > I'm sorry, I don't know when I *first* saw the post. However, here is > a supporting post: > > http://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2001AM/finalprogram/abstract_24628.htm > > Aramco has been using water injection technology for quite a while now. More here: http://www.peakoil.net/iwood2003/paper/BakhtiariPaper.doc From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 13 19:11:26 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4E2BN06001606; Thu, 13 May 2004 19:11:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4E2BLhh001585; Thu, 13 May 2004 19:11:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 19:11:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20040514021128.54059.qmail@web80405.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 19:11:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: OT - more 'semi-official' lies? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <40A3F36A.2020101@rtpatlanta.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54407 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Terry, > It is possible that your source could be somewhat > prejudiced? Undoubtedly, but no one has suggested that this is true, yet - only that it raises significant doubts that need to be addressed. And it's not my 'source' anyway. I found it while surfing to try to find out why the the victim's appearance seemed to have changed so much, so soon, from the photo. Family members seldom even question that sort of thing until much later, as they are too grief-stricken. Plus, if you read the piece you can see why Fox (Faux) or CNN or the other News groups will NOT be jumping on the band-wagon to report the 'story within the story' as they would be implicated themselves, since they and the other networks almost 'magically' found the original clip, within minutes after it was posted to an Arab language site which no Arab speaker had found previously and which has now been closed. ALL of the US News networks found it almost simultaneously ahead of any Arab network. It could be coincidence, of course, but they were obviously all tipped off by a source they trusted. How did that source know that it was there? Yes - the conspiracy nuts were a bit too quick to point the finger at who else - CIA - with no proof in hand. Hey, for all we know it could have been put on the Arab site by someone on Kerry's staff. However, the real point is - should all the inconsistencies be ignored, in the interest of patriotism? Even if Berg was already dead before being beheaded it is still a horrendous crime, and it doesn't absolve the real killers, but who were they? Isn't that important? Apparently, the Arab accent heard on the tape was not regional, but that alone isn't too suspicious. And even if the the name 'al quedda' was never mentioned on the original but still ended up in Fox's translation, that could just be an oversight. But when you add up all the loose ends - and most of these loose ends are factual - then there is a problem, and somebody had to break the story - true or not. That is not necessarily a bad thing - if it only serves to force clarification of what was the role of the networks and others in this. Indeed, the Arabs are prejudiced against us but it is not without some reason - but this story cuts both ways; so it was not in their best interest to fake it. And, if they didn't invent the story this time - and if they did just read the same US sites which always question this kind of thing - the 'source' they call the bloggers and you call the liberal conspiracy nuts, then that alone doesn't make it untrue. The Arab News source had to implicitly admit that they fell for the original story too - and they didn't have the good sense to spot the inconsistencies themselves. BTW, I don't consider myself a 'liberal' especially when it comes to fiscal policy. One can be a humanitarian and ecology-oriented and still be fiscally conservative - but one's political leanings, even if strongly conservative, should not excuse anyone from taking a critical view of the press and their shoddy role in this. What the press wants the public to believe and what their obligation is to verify the truth, is the real issue. The consistent pro-Bush reporting by Fox, could and will go the other way next time. They are basically whores who follow the dollar. And as for the Berg family and their feelings, they were strongly anti-CIA, anti-military from the start - and have been vocally expressing an anti-administration viewpoint all along. Is it wrong that they should know the truth? They now think that Berg was turned over to the killers by the CIA (or their associates) - why else would he still be wearing the coalition orange prison uniform? I suppose all his other clothes could have been dirty and the laundromat was closed... Surely, it might end up being somewhat comforting to know Berg was already dead when that scene was staged - if that is the truth of the situation. Of all the inconsistencies in this story, and there are many, the implication that Fox and CNN picked up the questionable film clip and ran with it - full steam ahead, before investigating more thoroughly - is the most troubling. Their gullibility is inexcusable, should it turn up to be a staged scene, regardless of what the underlying motives were. Finally, despite your experiences with chickens, I did run across a vociferous contrary opinion (yes, it appeared on a conspiracy site - Rense) from an MD with some experience in these things (one wonders how) who says that a huge bloody mess would have been unavoidable with human heads, poultry notwithstanding. The French of past years also know well that despite how quickly one severs both veins and arteries you are going to get several pints of splatter. That may not be enough for the flag-waving reporters at Faux, and it really means little to me. It's just one more doubt - but the bottom line is that questioning news sources (especially Faux) sould never be labeled as anti-American, unpatriotic or Liberal. Let's see, is Fox even owned by an American? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 13 20:00:07 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4E2xv5d029465; Thu, 13 May 2004 20:00:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4E2xoYO029413; Thu, 13 May 2004 19:59:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 19:59:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40A43694.2010208@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 23:01:40 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT - more 'semi-official' lies? References: <20040513163844.47757.qmail@web80403.mail.yahoo.com> <40A3C80D.2090309@pobox.com> <40A3F565.8010406@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: <40A3F565.8010406@rtpatlanta.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54408 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > > > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> The linked article describes a video tape which shows a nearly >> bloodless beheading. (I have not seen the tape, just the description.) >> >> That is ... um ... "anomalous", I would say. Highly anomalous. >> Almost makes it on-topic, really. > > > Actually, quite on-topic for a science list. > > From someone who has "slayed" many a chicken for dinner, take a look at > the pumping system of the heart and see what happens then you cut BOTH > THE ARTERIES AND THE VEINS. > > You liberal conspiracists are actually making me sick. I hope to G-d, > that the family of Berg don't have to endure this. Liberal conspiracists...? OK, Terry, you're not a liberal, right? So you say. Do you know where your 20th anniversary edition of National Review is? You did save it, right? It's a collector's item. I've still got mine. Only a liberal could possibly have discarded it. You must remember it -- it's the issue in which they parodied themselves. They did it very well, too, which was no surprise given the generally high quality of the 'zine in those days. Reagan was great, in my opinion, and in the opinions of lots of others, who would have happily elected him to a third term if he could have run. I'm not ashamed to admit that I credit him with bringing down the Communist USSR and making the world a safer place for Americans. On the other hand, Bush Junior turns my stomach, and the change in the Republican party from the party of the anti-communists to the party of the fundamentalists does not seem to me to have been a change for the better. Part of the reason is that I still believe in the separation of church and state, which is, I really fear, a feeling not everyone in our current government shares. And part of the reason is that I valued our foreign alliances -- you know, the ones we use to have, the ones that Reagan cemented, and that Bush Senior worked so hard to preserve during the first Gulf war. Does all that make me a liberal conspiracist? You might consider reading a bit about the Berg family, by the way. They are apparently "liberal conspiracists" themselves. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 13 20:14:40 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4E3EX06019289; Thu, 13 May 2004 20:14:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4E3EVsI019270; Thu, 13 May 2004 20:14:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 20:14:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40A43A90.1040408@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 23:18:40 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT - more 'semi-official' lies? References: <20040514021128.54059.qmail@web80405.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20040514021128.54059.qmail@web80405.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------070001090109090509060108" Resent-Message-ID: <5wMQB.A.CtE.XmDpAB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54409 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070001090109090509060108 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jones Beene wrote: >Hi Terry, > > > >>It is possible that your source could be somewhat >>prejudiced? >> >> > >Undoubtedly, but no one has suggested that this is >true, yet - only that it raises significant doubts >that need to be addressed. > http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/13/iraq.berg/index.html You honestly think the CIA would pull crap like that at a time like this? >And it's not my 'source' >anyway. > You cited it. >Finally, despite your experiences with chickens, I did >run across a vociferous contrary opinion (yes, it >appeared on a conspiracy site - Rense) from an MD with >some experience in these things (one wonders how) who >says that a huge bloody mess would have been >unavoidable with human heads, poultry notwithstanding. > Not much better a source than your previous citation. Look carefully at these photos: http://www.620ktar.com/simons/beheading.aspx Enhance the contrast of #5 and you will see that the terrorists are standing in blood. 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Qtpa0SSUzgBxKsmsd9QgW1tkwoytIXoB2Ea6qbavEccKFDHgaeKtDeBwmlcSPBh6cjjcfNRF Lo9wAPkVYaXHtCZw1KdE0tNFHtDWx37qJ2gan5FPY0k91EVnuCnSNmynRG5rCefgFHbB00+C MaiRHCj6Jaggi+qiwFmpQXVQdNAjODgI7pAcSkEUqtgGhAKntb2aFKuFIgJGVGqQUNwBZHzV Of71ct4PwVL+5Ps8F19GuQffien9j//Vzt9XnHgkHUledpKs3Y8WvC+kA1ckgDxlOHY24fpW /eF5skmDhs3TIOL9K30z1Mb/AEjfvTsfilw/St+9eZJIng6rtX1IWYjdRc2finN2MdPWb968 sSTf1fgjV9S9TF/0zPvT78U/4Zh+a8sSS/V+CtX1QDEPNrB80vTwjO6+tg8S6F5Wkl6PBd6+ j6t6OA0aZdP+cqtoxJj7VW74GV5mkkOC9N1D3Or6O77IPo3NPzhDLqZ/nGf5y88ST9E+p9C3 Uf6Rn+cpg0R/Os/zl50kh6Vep9Gmj/SM/wA5R/V9388wfNedpI6K9b6S30P9Mz70drcAsG7L qafDcF5ekm+mjaDxvqQr6f8A9zqvvCIGdPj+nVfeF5SkhHhrS1HjfVtnT/8AufT94Sazpk65 tU/ELylJHTxR+sfWg3pn/c2r7wptPTAT+vVfeF5EkmehP6x9btPTf+59Y+Dk1Z6aHNa/Pq2C ZdIleSpJfq/qj9Y+ttf0wPIGdVtnQkhG9Tpv/c+n/OXjySZ6f63/ADVfrH2Ev6aQQM+nX+Uh k9Obzn0n+0vIklIfa0q/qxj3/wCVPrhyOmjjOq+bgo/aun/9zaf84LyVJL9V4p/X/wAqfWhk YB4zav8AOCf18D/ubT/nBeSJJfq/FX6/+VPrYv6eTBzaf84KRs6Z/wBy6vvC8iSRHtr4e713 fWnZHTmj25lXnqEvXwHf9rKv84LyVJH9Xeiz9Zr5vq178RlZLchj5GkFZ3rV+I528rzpJHT6 MJ/nB+8//9k= --------------070001090109090509060108-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 13 20:24:08 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4E3O05d003495; Thu, 13 May 2004 20:24:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4E3NxCL003478; Thu, 13 May 2004 20:23:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 20:23:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40A43CC0.2020205@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 23:28:00 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT - more 'semi-official' lies? References: <20040513163844.47757.qmail@web80403.mail.yahoo.com> <40A3C80D.2090309@pobox.com> <40A3F565.8010406@rtpatlanta.com> <40A43694.2010208@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <40A43694.2010208@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <7Zaj6B.A.S2.PvDpAB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54410 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > And part of the reason is that I valued our foreign alliances -- Oh, would those be the same ones that took oil vouchers from SH? BTW, Berg is not wearing orange prision garb. That's a ceremonial silk execution suit. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 13 22:11:50 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4E5Bj06016625; Thu, 13 May 2004 22:11:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4E5BiO2016607; Thu, 13 May 2004 22:11:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 22:11:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20040514051152.66553.qmail@web80402.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 22:11:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: OT - more 'semi-official' lies? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <40A43A90.1040408@rtpatlanta.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54411 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > You honestly think the CIA would pull crap like that at a time like this? Not officially, of course. But look, we're not talking about alter boys here and they have done far worse in the recent past. Give some of these cowboys enough leeway, or lack of supervision, and 'deniable' atrocities will happen. But the real culprit is most likely Mossad, with or without CIA help. If it turns out to be rogue CIA, consider: Nick Berg's father, Michael Berg, was placed on an "enemies list" at the FreeRepublic web site on March 7th, 2004 (popular right-wing site). Is that enough to tick-off a rogue agent of CIA or some other agency over there? Many of these right-wing hate groups claim to have members strategically placed in CIA etc., so CIA can't be ruled out. "On March 7, 2004 an "enemies list" composed of signatories to an anti-war petition was posted on the Free Republic website. The introductory and subsequent comments on that list suggest that the purpose of the posting was to encourage people to harass the individuals on the list and to circulate their names to agencies and individuals that might take action against them." Nick Berg's father, Michael Berg was on that list and he named Prometheus Methods Tower Service, Inc. as an affiliation, in spite of the fact that his son, Nick Berg, was supposedly a vocal and committed supporter of President Bush's Iraq campaign who had twice traveled to Iraq under the pretense of seeking work as a communications contractor with that company. For some reason, he went through Israel both times (Mossad connection?). According to his family on March 24, 2004 - approximately two weeks after publication of the enemies list on the Free Republic website - Nick Berg was detained by Iraqi police who handed him over to US forces who were specifically tied to CIA and he was then held until April 6 when he was released, the day after his family had filed a lawsuit in Philadelphia federal court. Nick Berg was not heard from again after April 9. The family obviously"wants" to pin it on our government, because they cannot sue Mossad. >From the Iraqi side, they saw the Jewish name 'Berg' and Israeli passport stamps, and that blinded them to his pro-Bush spiel... and the Iraqis may have done the deed themselves, but... best guess for the beheading is Mossad. Very strange... Jones All anyone is saying here is that we must consider the possibility of us all being made dupes by a post-hoc clever frame-up that may not even involve CIA. Berg could well have been a "patsy" of Mossad. Once again the forces of evil may not be what they seem: "By deception thou shalt wage war" - official motto of the Israeli Mossad. Consider: 1) Timing: extremely convenient "wag the dog" timing at the height of furor against U.S. torture of Iraqis. We definitely benefited, inn world public opinion, no matter who did it... 2) CNN poll question: "Is the Berg killing a reason for withholding any remaining Iraq prisoner abuse pictures?" Bush has been reported to be struggling with question of whether Pentagon should release additional torture photos. Given that the alleged decapitation of Berg was allegedly prompted by the first wave of torture photos, Bush will now cite "national security" issues for witholding additional materials. 3) Berg's last known whereabouts was in U.S. custody. 4) Berg shown in video wearing orange jumpsuit of apparent U.S. issue (compare with pictures of jumpsuits at Guantanamo - identical in almost every detail). 5) Berg mysteriously captured by someone (probably NOT Al-Quaeda) still wearing jumpsuit. Either he escaped from U.S. captors or U.S. let him out with orange suit and all - to be immediately apprehended by before he had a chance to change. 6) Tape obviously spliced together and heavily edited from at least two cameras showing wildly different times. Goes from a) Berg sitting in chair talking about family, to b) Berg sitting on floor with hooded "militants" behind, to c) blurry camera movement, to d) motionless Berg on floor as head cut off. 7) Audio clearly dubbed in. Arabic accent is described as 'Israeli Arabic" 8) "Arab" reader (white skinned) with Israeli accent flips through pages of "statement" and keeps ending up on the same page. Perhaps doesn't even known enough Arabic to recognize what page he's on? 9) Most of the so-called "Arabs" have white hands and other exposed skin. 10) "Arabs" have what has been described as Western-style body posture and mannerisms. Israelis have the same but not real Arabs. 11) When Berg decapitated, there was almost no blood spurt. If Berg were still alive at this point, with the cut starting at front of throat, blood would have been spraying everywhere. Berg's severed head is later seem on a floor covered with 'something' but Berg's clothes, and even the hand of the "Arab" who decapitated Berg had no visible blood on it. 12) Berg's body didn't move while on the ground. He was probably already dead when this part of the video was spliced-in. 13) Alleged "scream" from Berg sounded to be that of a woman or boy and was probably dubbed in. 14) Berg goes to great trouble to identify himself, providing information about his family, but this could have been filmed earlier. Why? To elicit greater sympathy? ... to provide a positive ID. FBI visited Berg family in an attempt to "verify his identity" but guy in video looks very little like Berg photos provided by family. Could it be that Berg was first killed by Iraqi guards, thinking him to be Mossad and then recovered by CIA, given by them to Mossad and then decapitated by Mossad, after being dead for some time. Why? to 'help our allies'? Who knows...arf... Wag the dog From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 14 08:45:24 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4EFjGWH022289; Fri, 14 May 2004 08:45:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4EFjD9c022254; Fri, 14 May 2004 08:45:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 08:45:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20040514144521.74065.qmail@web80411.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 07:45:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: UFOs and parallel universes To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54412 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: David Deutsch, a physicist at Oxford University, has an excellent book out, “The Fabric of Reality” that may provide a working hypothesis to explain a few of the mysteries that are resistent to traditional analysis - such as some instances of the UFO phenomenon, and perhaps some instances of experimental Over Unity, even parts of QM theory - although Deutsch doesn't go that far himself. His investigation involves 'parallel universes' and specifically those which may be dimensionally superimposed over ours. If there’s one or more detectable parallel universes around us, one may ask, why don’t we notice them more often? Well, maybe we do get glimpses fairly often, but the experts are quick to write it off as, say... "experimental error" or UFO quackery... and this predictable response inhibits full reporting by those who aren't sure themselves. Here's his site: http://www.qubit.org/people/david/FabricOfReality/FoR.html Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 14 09:28:07 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4EGS2WH018277; Fri, 14 May 2004 09:28:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4EGS1s7018254; Fri, 14 May 2004 09:28:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 09:28:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: "Johnson, Steven" To: "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" Cc: "Johnson, Steven" Subject: RE: UFOs and parallel universes Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 11:28:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-PMX-Version: 4.6.0.97784, Antispam-Core: 4.6.0.97340, Antispam-Data: 2004.5.13.100722 X-PerlMx-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIIII, Probability=8%, Report='__IMS_MSGID 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __SANE_MSGID 0, __TO_MALFORMED_2 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __ANY_IMS_MUA 0, EXCHANGE_SERVER 0, __HAS_X_MAILER 0, __IMS_MUA 0, __EVITE_CTYPE 0, __CTYPE_CHARSET_QUOTED 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __CT 0, __MIME_TEXT_ONLY 0' Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54413 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net] > Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 9:45 AM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: UFOs and parallel universes > > > David Deutsch, a physicist at Oxford University, has > an excellent book out, "The Fabric of Reality" that > may provide a working hypothesis to explain a few of > the mysteries that are resistent to traditional > analysis - such as some instances of the UFO > phenomenon, and perhaps some instances of experimental > Over Unity, even parts of QM theory - although Deutsch > doesn't go that far himself. > > ... > Jones > Since we are talking about those mysterious objects in the sky, a web site that gives another "alternative" explanation for UFO's in a round-about way is can be reached at: http://www.johntitor.com/ A fellow named "John Titor" apparently made a little splash on the net back in 2000 for approximately 4 months (pre 9/11) where he claimed to be a time traveler from 2034, thirty years in our future. After four months of deliberations he mysteriously disappeared as he predicted presumably to return to his time line. Granted this is most likely a clever hoax perpetrated by a imaginative individual with a decent knowledge of physics and quantum mechanics. Never the less, I have to confess that I was absolutely captivated when I read "John's" descriptions concerning physics, parallel time lines and probabilities and how it is related to quantum mechanics. He mentions UFOs briefly, saying the strange objects remain a mystery in his time either. He suspects they might be more sophisticated or more advanced time travelers just like what his organization is doing. His description of events to come were down right creepy, considering what was about to happen in a matter of months - 9/11. Apparently their world is still cleaning up after a protracted civil war that ultimately culminated in a brief global nuclear exchange that transpired around 2014. I'm not going to go into the reason's why "John" briefly visited our time-line back in 2000, nor why it didn't seem (from his point of view) to violate god knows how many Star Trek related time-line paradoxes. Suffice it to say that he made it clear that he felt he wasn't breaking any time violations by going public with his story. ...Something to do with all the infinite probabilities that exist in the super universe. I'd really love to hear what the physics experts in this discussion group might have to say about this author's grasp of physics - or who they speculate might have generated this "hoax". Again, I can only say that it was a good read! It creeped me out! Go Chickenheart! Spread the jello! Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 14 11:15:30 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4EIFInX011377; Fri, 14 May 2004 11:15:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4EIFFRJ011352; Fri, 14 May 2004 11:15:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 11:15:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20040514174828.46704.qmail@web80402.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 10:48:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: RE: UFOs and parallel universes To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54414 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Steven, > A fellow named "John Titor" apparently made a > little splash on the net back > in 2000 for approximately 4 months (pre 9/11) > where he claimed to be a time > traveler from 2034, thirty years in our future. > After four months of > deliberations he mysteriously disappeared as he > predicted presumably to > return to his time line. Wow. That is wild. Some of those predictions are a bit scary in our current 'timeline', aren't they...? especially in regard to recent posts on vortex concerning the trustworthiness of the news media... and/or certain officials in government. Specifically, this so-called "time traveler," John Titor, seems to be predicting that a 'civil war' will start in the USA in late 2004 and that it will mushroom into WWIII. Could this Titor end up being, not a time-traveller at all, but a 'plant' by left-wing red-hugging Liberals? Normally, it would be easy to write off the Titor business as a 'crock' of something smelly... were it not for the fact that some 'in-the-know' observers, many from the Right (not you, K.), have been saying for months that our citizens are being subconsciously prepared for tragedy. Others are more specific and say that we are being prepped by a major news outlet (Faux ?) for a *suspension* of this year's elections. Dependent, that is - on a major terrorists strike in the USA this year before the election.. and apparently a few of those people believe it's going to happen in NYC almost like in Spain - maybe Amtrack or the Long Island RR... (this is your seque, K.) Check this link out.. the site is clearly anti-Bush, but where else would such the article an article appear (even if it was true). Besides the rhetoric, it does have some interesting factual information beginning with William (No-leftist) Safire's dire new-years predicition of an 'October surprise'... a surprise "affecting the U.S. election" and that it would be "a major terror attack in the United States." http://www.buzzflash.com/farrell/04/04/far04011.html Others, less tied to the Right, have been more specific and have said pointedly that Cheney has already given the go-ahead to Arab operatives, recruited in Iraq by Haliburton, who will pose as Al Quedda. Maybe the Berg affair was a tune-up. Suspending the elections would definitely be more than controversial.. if we actually went into martial law this Fall, then I can begin to see the possibility for civil war beginning with many "Ruby Ridges" as freemen, both from the right and from the left, opposing the Dustappo - are forcibly brought into line by the axis-of-evil. Forgive this bit of premonition as an indulgence, Vo. It is worth about the same as the lack-of-paper it was printed on. Speculation is speculation, even if it comes from time travellers ... sorry, John Titor, most of us will have to wait and see if you were really on our timeline... or else, to the right or left of the mark. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 14 13:06:21 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4EK6CBU018499; Fri, 14 May 2004 13:06:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4EK6AcG018480; Fri, 14 May 2004 13:06:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 13:06:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20040514153215.01f25828@mail.lenr-canr.org> X-Sender: logs@lenr-canr.org@mail.lenr-canr.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 16:06:09 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: A charming UConn prof. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <3-2RUC.A.sgE.yaSpAB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54415 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is an article about a well-known anti-cold fusion fanatic, Moshe Gai: http://www.thechronicle.com/story_disp.htm?action=Search&story_id=3vmy3wrvxx5sm99&category=Local+News Apparently he has it in for other unpopular people, not just CF researchers. Quote: "The university accused him of making death threats and anti-gay comments to fellow professors, harassing graduate students and causing disruptions in the physics department." I do not know the facts of the matter, but it would not surprise me a bit if the university's allegations were true. Other leading anti-CF cranks have also revealed themselves as all-purpose cranks. As Gene Mallove says, Robert Park's column should be titled, "What's New, That I Hate." He does not only despise CF, he despises anything that calls into question textbook theory. The late Douglas Morrison was perhaps the prime example of an anti-CF kook. He was innumerate (at least when it came to CF), repeating to the end of his life to anyone who would listen that a recombination effect capable of producing at most 650 joules might have produced 1.1 MJ. During an unforgettable moment at ICCF-3 he stated that nickel and palladium are "the same thing" for the purposes of cold fusion, and a short time later he threw in heavy water ice. It too is "the same thing." [sic] When he wasn't peddling crackpot theories to try to disprove CF, he would sometimes lecture on his theory of the "Regionalization of Results," or what I called Aryan Science Numerology. He believed that only white Northern European men are capable of doing original, worthwhile scientific research, and only those garlic-eating Italians, Japanese and other untermenschen would take cold fusion seriously. We shall not see such daunting creativity and such towering intellect in this field again -- if we are lucky. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 14 13:39:40 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4EKdFBU029302; Fri, 14 May 2004 13:39:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4EKd9w4029267; Fri, 14 May 2004 13:39:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 13:39:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20040514161126.01f27128@mail.lenr-canr.org> X-Sender: logs@lenr-canr.org@mail.lenr-canr.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 16:39:05 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: UFOs and parallel universes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54416 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This really is getting off topic, and perhaps it should be moved to Vortex-BL, but I must say the photographs of John Titor's equipment from the future are the most unconvincing photos I have seen since the White Computer Company reached its brief apogee around 1981. It was during the height of the microcomputer boom, when new companies were announced in nearly every issue of Byte Magazine. The White Computer Company came and went in only two issues, vanishing abruptly with several customer deposits. It published advertisements showing fuzzy black and white photos of "systems" and "equipment." The images appeared to be randomly selected printed circuit boards. Not even S100 or PC bus boards: just a few things ripped out of old equipment, with the wires still hanging out. It reminded me a little of 1960s science fiction schlock such as "The Six Million Dollar Man" or a James Bond movie. The heros confront "the world's most advanced [computer / laser weapon / rocket launcher / mind-control machine]." They stare at an open cabinet or equipment pedestal replete with blinking LEDs and dip switches that bears a remarkable similarity to the circuitry of a 1975 low-speed Data General printer, or perhaps a telephone equipment cabinet. Nothing out of the ordinary, in any case. Not long ago, some anti-technology activists broke into a data processing laboratory and took photographs of what they understood was a diabolical government computer involved in some kind of plot. The photos showed impressive looking equipment: the water chilling plant for the mainframe computer, which was in another room. (That's how I recall the story, but perhaps I made that one up.) - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 14 14:38:59 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4ELcoBU015902; Fri, 14 May 2004 14:38:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4ELcmIr015880; Fri, 14 May 2004 14:38:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 14:38:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: UFOs and parallel universes Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 18:05:26 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040514161126.01f27128@mail.lenr-canr.org> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54417 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The best part of the Titor meme is the reason for his traveling to our time. Apparently all the UNIX programmers died out in his time, and they need fresh geeks to continue the "strain". As the name of the OS implies, Eunuchs have a hard time finding dates and reproducing. Predictably, there was a population crash and Slashdot of the future is nothing more than Cmdr. Taco's personal webblog...tragic, really. BTW What's up with that laser interference experiment? I wasn't too convinced that destructive interference is indicative of a parallel universe, were you? ( he sez, valiantly struggling to steer the sinking post on topic ). K. -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell@mindspring.com] Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 4:39 PM To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: RE: UFOs and parallel universes This really is getting off topic, and perhaps it should be moved to Vortex-BL, but I must say the photographs of John Titor's equipment from the future are the most unconvincing photos I have seen since the White Computer Company reached its brief apogee around 1981. It was during the height of the microcomputer boom, when new companies were announced in nearly every issue of Byte Magazine. The White Computer Company came and went in only two issues, vanishing abruptly with several customer deposits. It published advertisements showing fuzzy black and white photos of "systems" and "equipment." The images appeared to be randomly selected printed circuit boards. Not even S100 or PC bus boards: just a few things ripped out of old equipment, with the wires still hanging out. It reminded me a little of 1960s science fiction schlock such as "The Six Million Dollar Man" or a James Bond movie. The heros confront "the world's most advanced [computer / laser weapon / rocket launcher / mind-control machine]." They stare at an open cabinet or equipment pedestal replete with blinking LEDs and dip switches that bears a remarkable similarity to the circuitry of a 1975 low-speed Data General printer, or perhaps a telephone equipment cabinet. Nothing out of the ordinary, in any case. Not long ago, some anti-technology activists broke into a data processing laboratory and took photographs of what they understood was a diabolical government computer involved in some kind of plot. The photos showed impressive looking equipment: the water chilling plant for the mainframe computer, which was in another room. (That's how I recall the story, but perhaps I made that one up.) - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 14 14:43:31 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4ELhQCw009159; Fri, 14 May 2004 14:43:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4ELhNM8009129; Fri, 14 May 2004 14:43:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 14:43:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20040514214336.3377.qmail@web80401.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 14:43:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: RE: UFOs and parallel universes To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040514161126.01f27128@mail.lenr-canr.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54418 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Jed Rothwell wrote: > I must say the photographs of John Titor's equipment > from the future are the most unconvincing photos I > have seen since the White Computer Company reached its > brief apogee around 1981. Did you catch the steering wheel? Ha ... does a 'time machine' really need one? I guess the DeLorean did, or ... perhaps it's used to choose one's political alignment for the next timeline? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 14 14:56:50 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4ELuaCw013196; Fri, 14 May 2004 14:56:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4ELuYb7013172; Fri, 14 May 2004 14:56:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 14:56:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <12d.41259aed.2dd69a9a@aol.com> Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 17:56:42 EDT Subject: Off topic Perl programming and cgi I did it. To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_12d.41259aed.2dd69a9a_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6804 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54419 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --part1_12d.41259aed.2dd69a9a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Angelfire now lets you add CGI scripts to their server. I wrote programs to monitor my guest's, name, score, and Chapters viewed. This was not as hard as thought it would be (impossible). I found a book, Perl in easy steps by Mike McGrath, that I could understand. Many other CGI books just blew me away. After I read McGrath's book and wrote some code I was then able to understand to more complex books on the subject. The PERL program prints out a XML data file. The HTML chapter table.html presents the XML data. Thanks all for getting me started on XML. If it was not for some help I never would have got off of first base on this one. Take a look at the guest book. Take the self test and see how your score is added to the guest book. If I can to this stuff you can to. Try it. http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/index.html The Java Script that you encounter when you visit index.html asks for your name. Your name and a "none" score are inserted into a Cooke by the Java Script in index.html. You can see this Java script with "view source" on you browser. It starts with . If you want to change your name delete the name cookie file from your computer them reopen index.html. I use the cookie to exchange information between chapters on my CD ROM. The CD-ROM is only off line. The cookie data is sent on line on to the PERL program after the? in the command http;//www.agelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/cgi-bin/login.pl? + data The Perl source code below reads the data field and spits it out on a XML file. Each data field is shifted lower in @array as a new name is entered. The Perl source is below. .............................................................................. .......................................... #!C:\Perl\bin\perl $length=50; print "Content-type:text/html\n\n"; #read input string sent by get method $input =$ENV{'QUERY_STRING'}; #split the string if($input eq "") {$input ="no data";} #get rid of hex packing $input =~ s/%(..)/pack("c",hex($1))/eg; #security replace all control characters with an underbar $input =~ s/<(([^>]|\n)*)>/_/g; # open the relational data file for input .......................................................... open(RELDATA, "; flock(RELDATA, 8); close (RELDATA); ($count, $name, $score, $date, $pages)=split(/,/, $array[0], 5); if($pages eq "none"); { $pages = $input;} else {$pages = "$input".","."$pages".","; } # compose comma delimanated related data file $array[0] = "$count".","."$name".","."$score".","."$date".","."$pages"; #output the relational data------------------------------------------------ open(RESULT, ">reldata.txt"); flock(RESULT, 2); foreach $array(@array) { $array =~ s/\n//g; print RESULT $array; print RESULT "\n"; } flock(RESULT, 8); close (RESULT); #xml document code____________________________________________________ #open the xml file for output.......................................................... open(XML, ">data.xml"); flock(XML, 2); print XML "\n"; print XML "\n"; # xml output sequence........................... for( $i=0; $i < $alength; $i=$i+1 ) { $packet = $array[$i]; ($count, $xname, $xscore, $xdate, $xpages)=split(/,/, $packet, 5); if($xpages eq "") {$xpages ="no data";} #security replace all control characters with an underbar $xname =~ s/<(([^>]|\n)*)>/_/g; $xscore =~ s/<(([^>]|\n)*)>/_/g; $xdate =~ s/<(([^>]|\n)*)>/_/g; $xpages =~ s/<(([^>]|\n)*)>/_/g; # xml output sequence........................... print XML "\n"; print XML ""; print XML $count; print XML "\n"; print XML ""; print XML "$xname"; print XML "\n"; print XML ""; print XML "$xscore"; print XML "\n"; print XML ""; print XML "$xdate"; print XML "\n"; print XML ""; print XML "$xpages"; print XML "\n"; print XML "\n"; } print XML ""; flock(XML, 8); close (XML); # REDIRECT TO TABLE HTML.................. print "\n"; print "\n"; print ""; #end of Perl source................................................... enjoy and learn. Frank Znidarsic --part1_12d.41259aed.2dd69a9a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Angelfire now lets you add CGI scri= pts to their server.  I wrote programs to monitor my guest's, name,&nbs= p; score, and Chapters viewed.  This was not as hard as thought it woul= d be (impossible). I found a book, Perl in easy steps by Mike McGrath, that=20= I could understand.  Many other CGI books just blew me away.  Afte= r I read McGrath's book and wrote some code I was then able to understand to= more complex books on the subject. The PERL program prints out a XML data f= ile.  The HTML chapter table.html presents the XML data.

Thanks all for getting me started on XML.  If it was not for some help=20= I never would have got off of first base on this one.

Take a look at the guest book.  Take the self test and see how your sco= re is added to the guest book.  If I can to this stuff you can to. = ; Try it.

http://www.angelf= ire.com/scifi2/zpt/index.html

The Java Script that you encounter when you visit index.html asks for your n= ame.  Your name and a "none" score are inserted into a Cooke by the Jav= a Script in index.html.  You can see this Java script with "view source= " on you browser. It starts with <script> and ends with </script>= ;.  If you want to change your name delete the name cookie file from yo= ur computer them reopen index.html.  I use the cookie to exchange infor= mation between chapters on my CD ROM.  The CD-ROM is only off line.&nbs= p; The cookie data is sent on line on to the PERL program after the? in the=20= command  http;//www.agelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/cgi-bin/login.pl? + data

The Perl source code below reads the data field and spits it out on a XML fi= le.  Each data field is shifted lower in @array as a new name is entere= d.  The Perl source is below.

............................................................................= ............................................

#!C:\Perl\bin\perl

$length=3D50;
print "Content-type:text/html\n\n";

#read input string sent by get method
$input =3D$ENV{'QUERY_STRING'};

#split the string


if($input eq "")
{$input =3D"no data";}

#get rid of hex packing
$input =3D~ s/%(..)/pack("c",hex($1))/eg;


#security replace all control characters with an underbar
$input =3D~ s/<(([^>]|\n)*)>/_/g;


# open the relational data file for input ..................................= ........................
open(RELDATA, "<reldata.txt");
flock(RELDATA, 2);
@array =3D <RELDATA>;
flock(RELDATA, 8);
close (RELDATA);

($count, $name, $score, $date, $pages)=3Dsplit(/,/, $array[0], 5);

if($pages eq "none");
{ $pages =3D $input;}
else
{$pages =3D "$input".","."$pages".","; }

# compose comma delimanated related data file


$array[0] =3D "$count".","."$name".","."$score".","."$date".","."$pages";
#output the relational data------------------------------------------------<= BR>
open(RESULT, ">reldata.txt");
flock(RESULT, 2);

foreach $array(@array)
{
$array =3D~ s/\n//g;
print RESULT $array;
print RESULT "\n";
}

flock(RESULT, 8);
close (RESULT);

#xml document code____________________________________________________

#open the xml file for output...............................................= ...........
open(XML, ">data.xml");
flock(XML, 2);

print XML "<?xml version=3D\"1.0\" encoding=3D\"ISO-8859-1\"?>\n";
print XML "<Namefile>\n";

# xml output sequence...........................

for( $i=3D0; $i <  $alength; $i=3D$i+1 )
{

$packet =3D  $array[$i];

($count, $xname, $xscore, $xdate, $xpages)=3Dsplit(/,/, $packet, 5);


if($xpages eq "")
{$xpages =3D"no data";}


#security replace all control characters with an underbar
$xname =3D~ s/<(([^>]|\n)*)>/_/g;
$xscore =3D~ s/<(([^>]|\n)*)>/_/g;
$xdate =3D~ s/<(([^>]|\n)*)>/_/g;
$xpages =3D~ s/<(([^>]|\n)*)>/_/g;


# xml output sequence...........................

print XML "<cd>\n";
print XML "<visitor>";
print XML  $count;
print XML "</visitor>\n";
print XML "<name>";
print XML "$xname";
print XML "</name>\n";
print XML "<score>";
print XML   "$xscore";
print XML "</score>\n";
print XML "<date>";
print XML "$xdate";
print XML "</date>\n";
print XML "<pages>";
print XML  "$xpages";
print XML "</pages>\n";
print XML "</cd>\n";
}
print XML "</Namefile>";

flock(XML, 8);
close (XML);


# REDIRECT TO TABLE HTML..................


print "<html>\n";
print "<script>\n";
print "window.navigate(\"http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/1pickme.html\")= \n";
print "</script>\n";
print "</html>";

#end of Perl source...................................................

enjoy and learn.


Frank Znidarsic --part1_12d.41259aed.2dd69a9a_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 14 15:04:28 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4EM4IBU022360; Fri, 14 May 2004 15:04:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4EM4HSW022341; Fri, 14 May 2004 15:04:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 15:04:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20040514220409.93620.qmail@web80404.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 15:04:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: RE: UFOs and parallel universes To: knagel@gis.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54420 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Keith Nagel wrote: > The best part of the Titor meme is the reason > for his traveling to our time. Apparently all > the UNIX programmers died out in his time, > and they need fresh geeks to continue the > "strain". One of the more believable things about John Titor's shtick is that he alludes to a "problem with Unix in 2038", which a little net-surfing will show is real. All Unix clocks on 32-bit architectures apparently roll over in 2038, when the number of seconds since 1970 (Year One for Unix clocks) exceeds 2^32. Some of Eunuchs estimate that this Y2K38 problem will cause 'global devastation' of the same magnitude as Y2K... IOW a gaping yawner... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 14 15:08:03 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4EM7tCw016982; Fri, 14 May 2004 15:07:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4EM7shn016965; Fri, 14 May 2004 15:07:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 15:07:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40A54438.6000101@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 18:12:08 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Off topic Perl programming and cgi I did it. References: <12d.41259aed.2dd69a9a@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <12d.41259aed.2dd69a9a@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54421 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com wrote: > Thanks all for getting me started on XML. If it was not for some help > I never would have got off of first base on this one. It was Hamdi, our Turkey friend. :-) Hamdi, are you watching the sightings in Mexico, Poland and Romania? Something is happening . . . "something wonderful". From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 15 09:00:33 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4FG0M5L007646; Sat, 15 May 2004 09:00:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4FG0BGx007573; Sat, 15 May 2004 09:00:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 09:00:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20040515115906.01f2a2c8@mail.lenr-canr.org> X-Sender: logs@lenr-canr.org@mail.lenr-canr.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 12:00:38 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Dreadful news Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <7ooO8.A.N2B.K6jpAB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54422 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I have dreadful news. It is difficult to report a thing like this by e-mail, but I suppose I should. I deeply regret to announce that Eugene Mallove is dead. Apparently, he was murdered yesterday. I have few details, but he was killed in a dispute over rental property. His parents owned a house in Connecticut. They are now living an nursing home, and he rented out the house. The tenants apparently made a terrible mess, and he evicted them. He went to the house a few days ago to clean up the mess. Someone killed him, took the car, and left it around five miles away. I have no information about funeral arrangements. I will post another message when I hear something. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 15 09:55:57 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4FGtn5L025232; Sat, 15 May 2004 09:55:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4FGtlNH025212; Sat, 15 May 2004 09:55:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 09:55:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20040515100056.05ed0980@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 10:01:33 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Subject: Dr. Eugene Mallove Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1810174062==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54423 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_1810174062==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed To the worldwide cold fusion community: It is with great sadness that I report the passing of Gene Mallove, who was killed on April 15, 2003 as a result of a dispute with a former tenant. Gene is survived by his wife Joanne, son Ethan and daughter Kim. No funeral arrangements are known at this time. Gene Mallove, who, in his 1991 book "Fire from Ice: Searching for the Truth behind the Cold Fusion Furor," was the first to courageously and boldly express the truth behind cold fusion, long before any science journalist even dared to ask questions that challenged the prevailing view. For 15 years, Gene maintained the cold fusion "torch" at great personal sacrifice, which initially drew us, and many others to learn the truth behind cold fusion. Gene's generosity and commitment to a better world will be forever appreciated. Christy, the office manager at Infinite Energy, is most likely the person to contact for further details, though I will assist to convey more information when it is known. Her phone number is 603.224.7060. Individuals wishing to send flowers or cards may contact me or Christy for the Mallove home address. Steven B. Krivit New Energy Times Los Angeles, California, USA www.newenergytimes.com Phone: (310) 470-8189 Fax: (310) 470-8190 --=====================_1810174062==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" To the worldwide cold fusion community:

It is with great sadness that I report the passing of Gene Mallove, who was killed on April 15, 2003 as a result of a dispute with a former tenant.  Gene is survived by his wife Joanne, son Ethan and daughter Kim.  No funeral arrangements are known at this time.

Gene Mallove, who, in his 1991 book "Fire from Ice: Searching for the Truth behind the Cold Fusion Furor," was the first to courageously and boldly express the truth behind cold fusion, long before any science journalist even dared to ask questions that challenged the prevailing view.
For 15 years, Gene maintained the cold fusion "torch" at great personal sacrifice, which initially drew us, and many others to learn the truth behind cold fusion. Gene's generosity and commitment to a better world will be forever appreciated.

Christy, the office manager at Infinite Energy, is most likely the person to contact for further details, though I will assist to convey more information when it is known. Her phone number is 603.224.7060.  Individuals wishing to send flowers or cards may contact me or Christy for the Mallove home address.


Steven B. Krivit
New Energy Times
Los Angeles, California, USA
www.newenergytimes.com
Phone: (310) 470-8189
Fax: (310) 470-8190 --=====================_1810174062==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 15 10:29:38 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4FHTSkO027404; Sat, 15 May 2004 10:29:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4FHTPkB027380; Sat, 15 May 2004 10:29:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 10:29:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40A6545A.5060800@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 13:33:14 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Dreadful news References: <6.0.3.0.2.20040515115906.01f2a2c8@mail.lenr-canr.org> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040515115906.01f2a2c8@mail.lenr-canr.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54424 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > I deeply regret to announce that Eugene Mallove is dead. The world owes Gene a great debt and they are not yet aware. G-d bless and comfort his family in their time of loss. At least Gene witnessed the possible turn toward victory in his quest. Say hello to Chris for us, Sir Mallove. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 15 10:29:42 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4FHTXkO027454; Sat, 15 May 2004 10:29:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4FHTWlP027441; Sat, 15 May 2004 10:29:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 10:29:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20040515103438.05f1e9b8@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 10:34:56 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Subject: Dr. Eugene Mallove, correction to date Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54425 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Correction: this event occurred yesterday, May 14, 2004 - Apologies for my error. Thanks, Steve From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 15 11:22:58 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4FIMp5L015826; Sat, 15 May 2004 11:22:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4FIMnvM015805; Sat, 15 May 2004 11:22:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 11:22:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20040515112819.05ec9000@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 11:28:40 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Subject: Dr. Eugene Mallove, further corrections Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1815401609==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <5zJAo.A.52D.5_lpAB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54426 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_1815401609==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed To the cold fusion community: Please be advised as to corrections from previous messages from Jed Rothwell and myself, as noted by Christy Frazier of Infinite Energy: Correct phone number for Infinite Energy: 603-485-4700 Christy also notes the following: "It is not clear whether his death is related to the tenants. It is a homicide and an investigation is underway." "Gene's mother lives in Pembroke, New Hampshire, next to our office, not a nursing home. His father passed away last year." Steven B. Krivit New Energy Times Los Angeles, California, USA www.newenergytimes.com Phone: (310) 470-8189 Fax: (310) 470-8190 --=====================_1815401609==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" To the cold fusion community:

Please be advised as to corrections from previous messages from Jed Rothwell and myself, as noted by Christy Frazier of Infinite Energy:

Correct phone number for Infinite Energy: 603-485-4700

Christy also notes the following:

"It is not clear whether his death is related to the tenants.  It is a homicide and an investigation is underway."

"Gene's mother lives in Pembroke, New Hampshire, next to our office, not a nursing home. His father passed away last year."

Steven B. Krivit
New Energy Times
Los Angeles, California, USA
www.newenergytimes.com
Phone: (310) 470-8189
Fax: (310) 470-8190 --=====================_1815401609==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 15 13:05:43 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4FK5a5L011415; Sat, 15 May 2004 13:05:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4FK5UMe011387; Sat, 15 May 2004 13:05:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 13:05:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001d01c43ab8$051e93e0$0500a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <6.0.3.0.2.20040515115906.01f2a2c8@mail.lenr-canr.org> Subject: Re: Dreadful news Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 21:05:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54427 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I am shocked... I don't know what else to say Nick Palmer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 15 13:15:18 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4FKFC5L014116; Sat, 15 May 2004 13:15:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4FKFBQ8014086; Sat, 15 May 2004 13:15:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 13:15:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20040515131419.00af95d0@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 13:21:04 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Subject: Re: Dreadful news In-Reply-To: <001d01c43ab8$051e93e0$0500a8c0@nixlaptop> References: <6.0.3.0.2.20040515115906.01f2a2c8@mail.lenr-canr.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54428 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Nick, Yes, we are all in shock today. And there are many achievements that Gene will be recognized for, for a long, long time. I will be assisting Christy to collect any memorabilia or thoughts people would like to share in remembrance of Gene -- if and when you have more to say. At 09:05 PM 5/15/2004 +0100, you wrote: >I am shocked... I don't know what else to say > >Nick Palmer Steve From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 15 15:48:07 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4FMm25L016786; Sat, 15 May 2004 15:48:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4FMm0tK016769; Sat, 15 May 2004 15:48:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 15:48:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005a01c43ace$ba1eef40$36d52bd9@NH2> From: "norman.horwood" To: References: <6.0.3.0.2.20040515115906.01f2a2c8@mail.lenr-canr.org> Subject: Re: Dreadful news Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 23:48:19 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54429 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed, I was horrified to hear the awful news about Gene. Please pass on to his wife, son and daughter my sincere condolences and wish them long life. I well remember the days, years ago when I had my own workshop, and along with you, Gene and Chris Tinsley we had exciting times trying to simulate Stan Meyer's funny patents, to no avail. Gene's great enthusiasm and persistence kept the flame of CF burning, (in our hearts if not always in the shop!), and managed to sustain the old mag. and its re-birth into the present respectable publication. Lets hope that his energy and singleness of purpose will have given the cause of CF and its branches enough boost to keep it in orbit. With your continued great efforts to present the truth in well documented and indexed format on the Net, and with the support of the Vortex community I am sure that the momentum can be sustained. With my best wishes, Norman From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 15 16:11:49 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4FNBi5L022127; Sat, 15 May 2004 16:11:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4FNBiZB022112; Sat, 15 May 2004 16:11:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 16:11:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electron Power Systems? Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 09:12:04 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id i4FNBa5L022069 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54430 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Chambers, Robert (UK)'s message of Mon, 10 May 2004 17:15:08 +0100: Hi, [snip] > >Anyone heard of these people? > >http://www.electronpowersystems.com/index.html "We are developing a six-kw power supply that is non-polluting, and uses no fossil fuels or nuclear fuels. In production it will cost about the same as present gasoline powered six-kw power supplies, but will run for a year continuously on about a kilogram (2.2 pounds) of hydrogen and boron, compared to 7300 gallons of gasoline." The fusion energy from the P-B11 reaction of 1 kg of fuel is 2212 kW years, i.e. 2.2 MW for 1 year, not 6 kW for one year. So they are either going to produce 99.7% waste heat, or they just can't do arithmetic. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk Hot fusion is sort of like Heaven, It's the reward you get long after everyone's dead From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 15 17:22:24 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4G0MIkO019205; Sat, 15 May 2004 17:22:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4G0M1BC019124; Sat, 15 May 2004 17:22:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 17:22:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40A6B516.5050600@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 20:25:58 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electron Power Systems? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54431 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >Hot fusion is sort of like Heaven, >It's the reward you get long after everyone's dead > You have reached a new low. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 15 21:44:10 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4G4i6W0027320; Sat, 15 May 2004 21:44:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4G4i5br027301; Sat, 15 May 2004 21:44:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 21:44:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: Electron Power Systems? Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 11:42:30 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54432 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Errrr, rather difficult to imagine how anyone would achieve 100% conversion efficiency. Perhaps the 2.2 kg is a necessary 'critical mass' to ensure that 0.3% gets converted? regards... > -----Original Message----- > From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au] > Sent: Sunday, 2004 May 16 06:12 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Electron Power Systems? > > >http://www.electronpowersystems.com/index.html > > "We are developing a six-kw power supply that is non-polluting, > and uses no fossil fuels > or nuclear fuels. In production it will cost about the same as > present gasoline powered > six-kw power supplies, but will run for a year continuously on > about a kilogram (2.2 > pounds) of hydrogen and boron, compared to 7300 gallons of gasoline." > > The fusion energy from the P-B11 reaction of 1 kg of fuel is 2212 > kW years, i.e. 2.2 MW for 1 year, not 6 kW for one year. So they > are either going to produce 99.7% waste heat, or they just can't > do arithmetic. > > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > Hot fusion is sort of like Heaven, > It's the reward you get long after everyone's dead > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 15 23:23:05 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4G6N2W0017318; Sat, 15 May 2004 23:23:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4G6N1bD017303; Sat, 15 May 2004 23:23:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 23:23:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Don Wiegel" To: Subject: RE: Dreadful news Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 00:23:25 -0600 Message-ID: <001001c43b0e$4dd397b0$2702a8c0@DonWLap> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040515115906.01f2a2c8@mail.lenr-canr.org> Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id i4G6MxW0017274 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54433 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: http://www.norwichbulletin.com/news/stories/20040516/localnews/430783.html NORWICH -- A 56-year-old former Norwich man was killed during a suspected robbery and brutal assault at his family home on Salem Turnpike Friday. Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, a Norwich Free Academy graduate, published author and father of two, died of multiple injuries to his head and neck, according to an autopsy performed Saturday at the Office of the Chief State Medical Examiner in Farmington. The death was ruled a homicide. Police would not confirm Mallove's identity Saturday pending positive identification by family members. Mallove was discovered at the small 119 Salem Turnpike house at 10:55 p.m. Friday after police received a report of an injured person. At the house, situated at the entrance to Interstate 395 in a primarily commercial area, police found Mallove unresponsive, the victim of an assault. He was later pronounced dead by medical personnel called to the scene. Police said initial investigation indicated a robbery, during which a physical confrontation took place. Several unidentified items were taken from the scene and Mallove's vehicle was missing, according to a written statement released by Norwich police. Several hours later, Mallove's 1993 green Dodge Caravan was found in the Foxwoods employee parking lot on Route 2 in Preston. The vehicle is easily identifiable by several large bumper stickers, including an American flag and his company Web site, www.infinite-energy.com, in the rear window. The New Hampshire license plate bears the registration INFNRG. | -----Original Message----- | From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell@mindspring.com] | Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2004 10:01 AM | To: vortex-L@eskimo.com | Subject: Dreadful news | | I have dreadful news. It is difficult to report a thing like this by | e-mail, but I suppose I should. | | I deeply regret to announce that Eugene Mallove is dead. Apparently, he was | murdered yesterday. I have few details, but he was killed in a dispute over | rental property. | | His parents owned a house in Connecticut. They are now living an nursing | home, and he rented out the house. The tenants apparently made a terrible | mess, and he evicted them. He went to the house a few days ago to clean up | the mess. Someone killed him, took the car, and left it around five miles away. | | I have no information about funeral arrangements. I will post another | message when I hear something. | | - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 16 00:04:46 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4G74e6p010250; Sun, 16 May 2004 00:04:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4G74cUB010228; Sun, 16 May 2004 00:04:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 00:04:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20040516080523.0069fb8c@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 08:05:23 +0000 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: Dreadful news Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54434 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >-----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell@mindspring.com] Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2004 10:01 AM To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Dreadful news I have dreadful news. It is difficult to report a thing like this by e-mail, but I suppose I should. I deeply regret to announce that Eugene Mallove is dead. ======================================= Eternal rest grant unto him, O Lord. And let perpetual light shine upon him. May he rest in peace. Amen. ======================================= FG From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 16 06:34:22 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4GDYJW0009467; Sun, 16 May 2004 06:34:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4GDYHTr009450; Sun, 16 May 2004 06:34:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 06:34:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40A76E6B.7030309@pobox.com> Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 09:36:43 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com CC: JedRothwell@mindspring.com Subject: Re: Dreadful news References: <6.0.3.0.2.20040515115906.01f2a2c8@mail.lenr-canr.org> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040515115906.01f2a2c8@mail.lenr-canr.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54435 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is really unbelieveable, terrible news. My deepest sympathy goes to all those who knew Dr. Mallove and who have suffered a personal loss. His parents, as well as his children, must be devastated. Jed, if there is anything we on Vortex could do for them, whether it's sending a sympathy card or contributing to a memorial fund, please let us know. Note that publishing personal addresses on Vortex might be ill-advised. Perhaps a PO box could be rented for a while, to which cards and good wishes could be sent? Jed Rothwell wrote: > I have dreadful news. It is difficult to report a thing like this by > e-mail, but I suppose I should. > > I deeply regret to announce that Eugene Mallove is dead. Apparently, he > was murdered yesterday. I have few details, but he was killed in a > dispute over rental property. > > His parents owned a house in Connecticut. They are now living an nursing > home, and he rented out the house. The tenants apparently made a > terrible mess, and he evicted them. He went to the house a few days ago > to clean up the mess. Someone killed him, took the car, and left it > around five miles away. > > I have no information about funeral arrangements. I will post another > message when I hear something. > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 16 07:31:05 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4GEV1W0025286; Sun, 16 May 2004 07:31:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4GEV0sW025273; Sun, 16 May 2004 07:31:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 07:31:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20040516143127.12835.qmail@web81101.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 07:31:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: RE: Dreadful news To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <001001c43b0e$4dd397b0$2702a8c0@DonWLap> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54436 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In the the theme of secular spirituality and many religious traditions, we find the transcendent concept of person-as-messenger. It is difficult to consider this tragedy in the broader horizon - but we if must: there have been few more effective messengers in recent years to warn us of the overlooked needs of our planet - and overlooked cures which are looming - than Gene Mallove. A few special humans act as the axions and message carriers, the early-warning system that makes up the thought-processes of the living mind we call Earth. In that regard they have a legacy that will always be with us.... Jones More details are available from the Norwich Bulletin: http://www.norwichbulletin.com/news/stories/20040516/localnews/430783.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 16 09:45:11 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4GGj26p017951; Sun, 16 May 2004 09:45:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4GGivTV017904; Sun, 16 May 2004 09:44:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 09:44:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20040516094359.00a6b7a0@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 09:50:17 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Subject: message from Bob Bass regarding Gene Mallove Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54437 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: 5/15/2004, via voice mail "This is devastating. He was certainly one of the greatest human beings alive at this time, he's made the world a better place." Steve From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 16 09:59:30 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4GGxK6p023852; Sun, 16 May 2004 09:59:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4GGxIIO023819; Sun, 16 May 2004 09:59:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 09:59:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20040516125722.01f22290@mail.lenr-canr.org> X-Sender: logs@lenr-canr.org@mail.lenr-canr.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 12:59:25 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Dreadful news Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54438 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > Note that publishing personal addresses on Vortex might be ill-advised. > Perhaps a PO box could be rented for a while, to which cards and good > wishes could be sent? That is a good point. A personal address might be a problem but I am sure there is no harm in posting the address of the magazine: New Energy Foundation, Inc. P.O. Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 16 10:35:20 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4GHZA6p001671; Sun, 16 May 2004 10:35:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4GHZ8FZ001653; Sun, 16 May 2004 10:35:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 10:35:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20040516103927.04d87ba8@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 10:40:36 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Subject: RE: Dreadful news In-Reply-To: <20040516143127.12835.qmail@web81101.mail.yahoo.com> References: <001001c43b0e$4dd397b0$2702a8c0@DonWLap> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54439 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jones....this is beautifully written and most caring...thank you for sharing this - Steve At 07:31 AM 5/16/2004 -0700, you wrote: >In the the theme of secular spirituality and many >religious traditions, we find the transcendent concept >of person-as-messenger. > >It is difficult to consider this tragedy in the >broader horizon - but we if must: there have been few >more effective messengers in recent years to warn us >of the overlooked needs of our planet - and overlooked >cures which are looming - than Gene Mallove. > >A few special humans act as the axions and message >carriers, the early-warning system that makes up the >thought-processes of the living mind we call Earth. In >that regard they have a legacy that will always be >with us.... > >Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 16 12:11:30 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4GJBL6p024282; Sun, 16 May 2004 12:11:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4GJBJQu024262; Sun, 16 May 2004 12:11:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 12:11:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20040516121512.00ade080@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 12:16:41 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Subject: No news yet on funeral arrangements Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54440 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I spoke with Christy about an hour ago...for those who have been inquiring.. there is no news yet on funeral arrangements. Steve From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 16 13:27:56 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4GKRqW0015100; Sun, 16 May 2004 13:27:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4GKRo2t015081; Sun, 16 May 2004 13:27:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 13:27:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220045016202839860@ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l@eskimo.com" Subject: Mallove, Hoagland, & Art Bell Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 13:28:39 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8ed7cd22e2db512f68cf3f25b4173ccc05bff31af8927e75a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54441 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: May 16, 2004 Vortex, It was indeed a totally unexpected shock and sadness to learn from Jed Rothwell and Krivit's posting yesterday of Dr. Eugene Mallove's death by murder at his parent's house. I have been associated with his I.E. publication in the beginning and I have marveled how he has continued to publish it to this day in the glossy cover format he demanded from the beginning. He was a tireless man in his pursuit of his science beliefs and proofs. We have lost an irreplaceable man of science for the cause of Cold Fusion and alternative energy. The event has numbed my mind until night when I remembered to tune into the weekend Art Bell program. Earlier in the day, I wondered if Richard Hoagland ('Gene's friend) had received the bad news so I visited his Enterprise web site. There was no mention. However there was a schedule announcement that a Clear Channel (Art Bell program) would happen on May 15th, ergo the reason to tune in. >From the beginning of the Art Bell program. and the listening audience is large, the murder of 'Gene was announced. I learned it was a bludgeon death to the head. The body was in the back yard of the house and there was evidence of theft of his wallet. Hoagland covered 'Gene's efforts over the years and gave a short background of how 'Gene got to be a cold fusion evangelist. Also he mentioned that 'Gene was blacklisted by the scientist community so he could not get any qualified academic job. I can attest to that because once I tracked him down to a computer store where he was working as a computer salesman. I did not call him there again since it seemed to have caused great embarrassment to him. Hoagland thought the murder too coincidental since 'Gene was due to appear with him on inquiries heating up on cold fusion and alternative energy. There was the other interest by DOD (aside from DOE) that the simple fusion process and transmutation as exhibited by Mitsubishi could be used for nuclear enrichment for a fission bomb (by even 3rd rate countries). Dr. Eugene Mallove had a dream just as much as Dr. Martin Luther King had. And just like King, 'Gene in his last editorial piece which Hoagland read, seemed to have foretold of his own demise just as the field of new physics was starting to crack open. 'Gene, I am gonna miss you till we meet again. Sincerely, Akira Kawasaki From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 16 14:28:39 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4GLSV6p023396; Sun, 16 May 2004 14:28:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4GLST1F023375; Sun, 16 May 2004 14:28:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 14:28:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Erikbaard@aol.com Message-ID: <1cc.2104e11c.2dd936f7@aol.com> Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 17:28:23 EDT Subject: Re: Dreadful news To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1084742903" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54442 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -------------------------------1084742903 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All - I never met Gene in person, but logged many enjoyable hours on the phone with him as a journalist and someone curious about views from outside the mainstream. Of course I also benefited from his informative emails. His passion was always clear, and he was a very encouraging soul when he saw you were standing at the edge of a question. If there was anything Gene seemed to love most, it was questions. Perhaps even more than answers. That's the soul of creative, dynamic, exciting science. I was just thinking about him this week, because I'm in the middle of starting a magazine that would also try to bring new perspective and voices to science readers, though in a different format than Infinite Energy. I wanted to make sure Gene was in the mix and thought by the end of June we might be in a position to reach out to him. I am also right now polishing up an essay about the value of mavericks in science (hooked to my research into Percival Lowell) and will now revamp the essay to honor Gene in some way. My uncle was murdered in a petty robbery. It's something Gene's family might grapple with for years -- how anyone could have, even for a moment, thought the life of their beloved so worthless. And a new sense of the frangibility of life and security could cause ripple effects for generations, as it did in mine -- it affects decision making and the future upbringing of that family's children in unexpected (and often subconscious) ways. The blessing Gene left to his family is that his work leaves a legacy so rich -- this one horrific event done to him could never overshadow the vibrant, colorful life of creative acts done by him. My best regards to all. Erik Erik Baard www.baard.com -------------------------------1084742903 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi All -
 
I never met Gene in person, but logged many enjoyable hours on the phon= e with him as a journalist and someone curious about views from outside the=20= mainstream. Of course I also benefited from his informative emails. His= passion was always clear, and he was a very encouraging soul when he saw yo= u were standing at the edge of a question. If there was anything Gene seemed= to love most, it was questions. Perhaps even more than answers. That's the=20= soul of creative, dynamic, exciting science.
 
I was just thinking about him this week, because I'm in the middle of s= tarting a magazine that would also try to bring new perspective and voices t= o science readers, though in a different format than Infinite Energy. I want= ed to make sure Gene was in the mix and thought by the end of June we might=20= be in a position to reach out to him. I am also right now polishing up an es= say about the value of mavericks in science (hooked to my research into Perc= ival Lowell) and will now revamp the essay to honor Gene in some way.
 
My uncle was murdered in a petty robbery. It's something Gene's fa= mily might grapple with for years -- how anyone could have, even for a=20= moment, thought the life of their beloved so worthless. And a new sense of t= he frangibility of life and security could cause ripple effects for generati= ons, as it did in mine -- it affects decision making and the future upb= ringing of that family's children in unexpected (and often subconscious) way= s. The blessing Gene left to his family is that his work leaves a legacy so=20= rich -- this one horrific event done to him could never overshadow = ;the vibrant, colorful life of creative acts done by him.
 
My best regards to all.
 
Erik
 
Erik Baard
-------------------------------1084742903-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 16 16:00:42 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4GN0bW0017264; Sun, 16 May 2004 16:00:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4GN0ZWa017240; Sun, 16 May 2004 16:00:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 16:00:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME::Lite 1.3 (F2.71; T1.001; A1.51; B2.12; Q2.03) From: "Malgosia Askanas" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 16:01:08 -0700 X-Sasl-Enc: gnM67RGg+DRot3nPsUH17w 1084748468 Message-Id: <1084748468.10963.196570370@webmail.messagingengine.com> Subject: Re: dreadful news Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id i4GN0SW0017217 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54443 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: What a dreadful bunch of hypocrites you guys are. Everybody knows that for the past couple of years, Gene was passionate about Aetherometry, and wanted nothing so much as to see it read, understood, engaged with intelligently, and funded. Yet did any of you make the slightest effort to understand his passion, or even take it seriously? No. You treated it, on this forum, as if it was a delusion of a somewhat doddering fool. On this very forum, Gene posted a 4-part article trying to share his enthusiasm for Aetherometry with all of Vortex. Did any of you, as a result, buy a single Aetherometry monograph? Did you propose to establish a fund dedicated to helping Gene increase people's awareness of the value of Aetherometry? No, none of this. But no sooner is Gene dead that you wax elegiac about his stupendous effectiveness as a messenger "to warn us of the overlooked needs of our planet - and overlooked cures which are looming", and you are eager to send sympathy cards and establish a memorial fund. It is hard to know whether to laugh or to cry. -malgosia -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Same, same, but different… From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 16 16:30:25 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4GNUJ6p017842; Sun, 16 May 2004 16:30:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4GNUIFP017825; Sun, 16 May 2004 16:30:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 16:30:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20040516233015.57630.qmail@web81102.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 16:30:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: dreadful news To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <1084748468.10963.196570370@webmail.messagingengine.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54444 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- Malgosia Askanas wrote: > What a dreadful bunch of hypocrites you guys are. What a disgusting, greedy and disrespectful posting. You are badly in need of therapy... and in the meantime please keep your selfish angst under wraps. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 16 17:59:38 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4H0xX6p010487; Sun, 16 May 2004 17:59:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4H0xV55010471; Sun, 16 May 2004 17:59:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 17:59:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40A80F67.4080703@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 21:03:35 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: dreadful news References: <1084748468.10963.196570370@webmail.messagingengine.com> In-Reply-To: <1084748468.10963.196570370@webmail.messagingengine.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54445 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Malgosia Askanas wrote: >What a dreadful bunch of hypocrites you guys are. > (snip) >Did any of you, as a result, buy >a single Aetherometry monograph? > "Buy"? And you call us 'hypocrites'? GFY From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 16 18:30:16 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4H1U16x018569; Sun, 16 May 2004 18:30:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4H1NxFp017782; Sun, 16 May 2004 18:23:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 18:23:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME::Lite 1.3 (F2.71; T1.001; A1.51; B2.12; Q2.03) From: "Malgosia Askanas" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 18:20:52 -0700 X-Sasl-Enc: lEKC1xaw/lqOTqD32OQ3rQ 1084756852 Message-Id: <1084756852.1779.196574499@webmail.messagingengine.com> Subject: Re: dreadful news References: <1084748468.10963.196570370@webmail.messagingengine.com> <40A80F67.4080703@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: <40A80F67.4080703@rtpatlanta.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54446 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 16 May 2004 21:03:35 -0400, "Terry Blanton" said: > >Did any of you, as a result, buy > >a single Aetherometry monograph? > > > > "Buy"? And you call us 'hypocrites'? Ah, another Vortex luminary who thinks that scientific research should spring up as manna from heaven, without support. Not the research done at MIT or Lawrence Livermore or NASA, of course; everybody knows that _that_ research takes money and _those_ scientists get paid. But for independent scientists to ask for money for their work is considered by this crowd distasteful, to say the least. Or, as Mr Beene would put it, disgusting, greedy, and requiring therapy (I didn't know that in our society greed was something that calls for therpay, but OK.) Well, that view was certainly NOT shared by Gene, who knew very well that independent research takes money, and was always ready to fight for it on behalf of those scientists whose work he valued. By the way, I liked Mr. Beene's choice of the adjective "looming" when he talked about "cures". Doesn't "looming" have the connotation of "threatening" and "ominous"? -m -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Access all of your messages and folders wherever you are From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 16 18:41:28 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4H1fJ6p021210; Sun, 16 May 2004 18:41:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4H1fIUP021195; Sun, 16 May 2004 18:41:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 18:41:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40A81930.1090108@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 21:45:20 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: dreadful news References: <1084748468.10963.196570370@webmail.messagingengine.com> <40A80F67.4080703@rtpatlanta.com> <1084756852.1779.196574499@webmail.messagingengine.com> In-Reply-To: <1084756852.1779.196574499@webmail.messagingengine.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54447 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Malgosia Askanas wrote: >Ah, another Vortex luminary who thinks that scientific research should >spring up as manna from heaven, without support. Not the research done >at >MIT or Lawrence Livermore or NASA, of course; everybody knows that _that_ >research takes money and _those_ scientists get paid. > If you have the product to sell, the research is complete. You should give away those results and ask for $ for future funding. Again, GFY. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 16 18:52:14 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4H1qBW0026842; Sun, 16 May 2004 18:52:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4H1q946026824; Sun, 16 May 2004 18:52:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 18:52:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: Cc: Subject: RE: dreadful news Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 20:32:34 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <1084748468.10963.196570370@webmail.messagingengine.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54448 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: Malgosia Askanas [mailto:askanas@fastmail.fm] > Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 6:01 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: dreadful news > > What a dreadful bunch of hypocrites you guys are. ... > > -malgosia > Ms. Askansas The tone of your message does not strike me so much as a passionate call-to-arms that it should be in Everyone's best interests to understand the potential of Aetherometry and what it might be able to give to the world. That's unfortunate as I understand there are those who really DO feel that the theories and evidence so far documented are worth investigating. To me your message reveals the anguish and frustration you feel that nobody seems to take your passionate ideals seriously. Your message is not so much about the tragic death of Eugene Mallove. It's about Malgosia Askanas. I would certainly say that the path you have chosen in this life is a difficult and challenging one. Never the less, you might first consider the task of coming to terms with the fear that what you feel so passionate about might turn out in the end to be worthless. Deep down, I suspect this terrifies you. Have you considered the possibility that this the reason you are so combative? If you refuse to start dealing with this fear you will continue to project them upon the world blaming others for the messes you perceive. The world, quite rightly, will throw it back in your face. Face your demons, Malgosia. Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 16 18:58:20 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4H1wA6p025199; Sun, 16 May 2004 18:58:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4H1w8QJ025183; Sun, 16 May 2004 18:58:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 18:58:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <2f0fdede-db02-423d-ac07-2a2e5438089f> Message-ID: <002001c43bb2$5fd07150$104eccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Gene Mallove Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 21:57:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001D_01C43B90.D540CE20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54449 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C43B90.D540CE20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gene enriched my life's journey, setting me upon new paths of = exploration and learning.=20 Like many, I was aware of the cold fusion announcement inthe late 80's, = but it passed from my attention until a cover story on cold fusion by Ed = Storms in MIT's Technology Review. I lurked on spf for a while and two = sane voices emerged: Gene Mallove and Jed Rothwell.=20 I realized that Gene was at the nexus of a vast web of information about = cold fusion and related matters, and I made it my business to be on good = terms with him as a 'friend of the family' in many small ways. We became = close. I visited his home when he was publishing Infinite Energy himself = with a desktop computer, and doing the mailings himself. His passion, = sacrifice, and great humanity were evident at that point.=20 At Gene's request, I wrote articles and reviews for IE, which led me to = study new areas of technology, including the Correa's Pulsed Abnormal = Glow Discharge, Arata's dual-cathode cell with nano-powder palladium, = Mills' BlackLight Power, Joseph Newmann's energy machine, and others. = Through Gene I met Chris Tinsley and Jed Rothwell. And, I entered the = fray on Vortex and HSG.=20 I live about six hours' driving time from IE's location at Bow, NH. I = made many trips there, many phone conversations, and uncounted email = correspondence. At one point, Gene asked me to join him and Jed as = directors of Cold Fusion Technology, then the parent company of IE. I = resigned that post over a disagreement, but I remained supportive of = Gene's quest and courage.=20 Some years ago I arranged for him to give a talk at Temple University's = Center for Frontier Technologies in Philadelphia. While chatting in the = departure lounge of the airport on his way home, I asked Gene what he = wanted. In one word it was "Vindication". A favorable report from the DoE panel would be a step in that direction. = Gene did much more than publish a magazine. He worked patiently and = tirelessly among investor circles to find patrons to support the = magazine and a small testing laboratory. The magazine did not pay for = itself. He became a well known speaker at gatherings of wealthy people = looking for future opportunities. He was supported for years by a very = generous patron, now deceased.=20 He was the recipient of a constant flow of proposals and claims for = energy and related technologies. Rather than presenting the hard edge of = peer review, he gave a voice to many 'fringe' authors, always with = suitable caveats. He also published papers by credentialed authors such = as Dr. Storms the Drs. Graneau. In recent years, he became an advocate = for the work of the Correas. =20 Gene set up a small laboratory to test energy devices, with the = expectation that if effects could be duplicated he could have a small = demonstration room for the press and scientific visitors. In that = direction, he hired Ed Wall, Jeff Kooistra, and Ken Rauen. For several = years attempts to duplicate reported effects were made, generally = without success. A number of visitors brought devices for observation = and testing, again without satisfactory result.=20 Gene's patrons enabled him to hire some office and editorial staff to = help with the magazine. The principal patron died, and the organization = basis changed to a charitable foundation to support the publication = efforts. It was Gene who blew the whistle on the intellectual fraud at MIT = regarding the early cold fusion experiments, and quit a good job to = champion a nascent science at great sacrifice on his own part. He will = be vindicated. I will remember him with gratitude for enriching my life. = And when the history of this affair is written, he should have a place = of honor among the pioneers.=20 Mike Carrell ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C43B90.D540CE20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gene enriched my life's journey, = setting me upon=20 new paths of exploration and learning.
 
Like many, I was aware of the cold = fusion=20 announcement inthe late 80's, but it passed from my attention until a = cover=20 story on cold fusion by Ed Storms in MIT's Technology Review. I lurked = on spf=20 for a while and two sane voices emerged: Gene Mallove and Jed Rothwell.=20
 
I realized that Gene was at the nexus = of a vast web=20 of information about cold fusion and related matters, and I made it my=20 business to be on good terms with him as a 'friend of the family' = in many=20 small ways. We became close. I visited his home when he was publishing = Infinite=20 Energy himself with a desktop computer, and doing the mailings himself. = His=20 passion, sacrifice, and great humanity were evident at that point. =
 
At Gene's request, I wrote articles and = reviews for=20 IE, which led me to study new areas of technology, including the = Correa's Pulsed=20 Abnormal Glow Discharge, Arata's dual-cathode cell with nano-powder = palladium,=20 Mills' BlackLight Power, Joseph Newmann's energy machine, and = others.=20 Through Gene I met Chris Tinsley and Jed Rothwell. And, I entered the = fray on=20 Vortex and HSG.
 
I live about six hours' driving time = from IE's=20 location at Bow, NH. I made many trips there, many phone conversations, = and=20 uncounted email correspondence. At one point, Gene asked me to join him = and Jed=20 as directors of Cold Fusion Technology, then the parent company of IE. I = resigned that post over a disagreement, but I remained supportive of = Gene's=20 quest and courage.
 
Some years ago I arranged for him to = give a talk at=20 Temple University's Center for Frontier Technologies in Philadelphia. = While=20 chatting in the departure lounge of the airport on his way home, I asked = Gene=20 what he wanted. In one word it was "Vindication".
 
A favorable report from the DoE panel = would be a=20 step in that direction.
 
Gene did much more than publish a = magazine. He=20 worked patiently and tirelessly among investor circles to find patrons = to=20 support the magazine and a small testing laboratory. The magazine did = not pay=20 for itself. He became a well known speaker at gatherings of wealthy = people=20 looking for future opportunities. He was supported for years by a = very=20 generous patron, now deceased.
 
He was the recipient of a constant flow = of=20 proposals and claims for energy and related technologies. Rather than = presenting=20 the hard edge of peer review, he gave a voice to many 'fringe' authors, = always=20 with suitable caveats. He also published papers by credentialed authors = such as=20 Dr. Storms the Drs. Graneau. In recent years, he became an = advocate=20 for the work of the Correas. 
 
Gene set up a small laboratory to test = energy=20 devices, with the expectation that if effects could be duplicated he = could have=20 a small demonstration room for the press and scientific visitors. In = that=20 direction, he hired Ed Wall, Jeff Kooistra, and Ken Rauen. For several = years=20 attempts to duplicate reported effects were made, generally without = success. A=20 number of visitors brought devices for observation and testing, again = without=20 satisfactory result.
 
Gene's patrons enabled him to hire some = office and=20 editorial staff to help with the magazine. The principal patron died, = and the=20 organization basis changed to a charitable foundation to support the = publication=20 efforts.
 
It was Gene who blew the whistle on the = intellectual fraud at MIT regarding the early cold fusion experiments, = and quit=20 a good job to champion a nascent science at great sacrifice on his own = part. He=20 will be vindicated. I will remember him with gratitude for enriching my = life.=20 And when the history of this affair is written, he should have a place = of honor=20 among the pioneers.
 
Mike Carrell
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C43B90.D540CE20-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 16 19:20:15 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4H2KBW0032464; Sun, 16 May 2004 19:20:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4H2KAFS032447; Sun, 16 May 2004 19:20:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 19:20:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME::Lite 1.3 (F2.71; T1.001; A1.51; B2.12; Q2.03) From: "Malgosia Askanas" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 19:20:45 -0700 X-Sasl-Enc: hkCvayc02QaMW7hyP6XdIg 1084760445 Message-Id: <1084760445.11524.196576854@webmail.messagingengine.com> Subject: RE: dreadful news References: In-Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id i4H2K5W0032415 Resent-Message-ID: <9hHL6.A.76H.aFCqAB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54450 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 16 May 2004 20:32:34 -0500, "Steven Vincent Johnson" said: > Your message is not so much about the tragic death of Eugene Mallove. > It's > about Malgosia Askanas. > > I would certainly say that the path you have chosen in this life is a > difficult and challenging one. Never the less, you might first consider > the > task of coming to terms with the fear that what you feel so passionate > about > might turn out in the end to be worthless. Deep down, I suspect this > terrifies you. Have you considered the possibility that this the reason > you > are so combative? If you refuse to start dealing with this fear you will > continue to project them upon the world blaming others for the messes you > perceive. The world, quite rightly, will throw it back in your face. > > Face your demons, Malgosia. Good grief, the guy doesn't know me from Adam and he tells me that the path I have chosen in life is a difficult and challenging one. What path is that, pray tell? Can't you guys do better than sounding like a pop-psych column in a trashy magazine? "Deep down".... "Start dealing with your fears"... "The world will throw it back in your face"... One guy says I need therapy, and here another pops up, like a Jack in the Box, ready to wield the lingo. Wow. -m -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Same, same, but different… From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 16 19:29:05 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4H2SwW0002116; Sun, 16 May 2004 19:28:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4H2Svr3002103; Sun, 16 May 2004 19:28:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 19:28:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME::Lite 1.3 (F2.71; T1.001; A1.51; B2.12; Q2.03) From: "Malgosia Askanas" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 19:27:22 -0700 X-Sasl-Enc: KZjRCK0bvo9trKBtMk8Lcw 1084760842 Message-Id: <1084760842.12005.196577443@webmail.messagingengine.com> Subject: Re: dreadful news References: <1084748468.10963.196570370@webmail.messagingengine.com> <40A80F67.4080703@rtpatlanta.com> <1084756852.1779.196574499@webmail.messagingengine.com> <40A81930.1090108@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: <40A81930.1090108@rtpatlanta.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54451 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 16 May 2004 21:45:20 -0400, "Terry Blanton" said: > If you have the product to sell, the research is complete. You should > give away those results and ask for $ for future funding. > > Again, GFY. Sorry, you lost me there. What product to sell? What research is complete? Who and why should give away results? Who should ask whom for future funding? Is GFY shorthand for "goofy"? Yes, I agree, goofy it is again. -m -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Accessible with your email software or over the web From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 16 19:56:36 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4H2uVW0008747; Sun, 16 May 2004 19:56:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4H2uTeH008725; Sun, 16 May 2004 19:56:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 19:56:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200405170256.i4H2uSW0008691@ultra6.eskimo.com> From: "John Logajan" To: Subject: Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 21:57:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C43B90.BBB50A70" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: AcQ7uqQ3cwbYXrj7RUC0I5ZPO/cjsw== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54452 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C43B90.BBB50A70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All, Sorry to hear of Gene's recent passing. My sympathies to his family and friends. -- John Logajan ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C43B90.BBB50A70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

All,

 

Sorry to hear of Gene’s recent = passing.

 

My sympathies to his family and = friends.

 

-- John Logajan

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C43B90.BBB50A70-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 16 20:00:20 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4H3066p007139; Sun, 16 May 2004 20:00:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4H2xsDs007103; Sun, 16 May 2004 19:59:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 19:59:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electron Power Systems? Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 12:59:50 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <2daga0h994cu8bu3bd5r26po433ufnj7q5@4ax.com> References: <40A6B516.5050600@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: <40A6B516.5050600@rtpatlanta.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id i4H2xn6p007051 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54453 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Sat, 15 May 2004 20:25:58 -0400: Hi, [snip] > > >Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >>Hot fusion is sort of like Heaven, >>It's the reward you get long after everyone's dead >> > >You have reached a new low. I have been using that sig. as my default for some time now. No connection with the tragic recent passing of Dr. Mallove was intended, if that's what you are referring to. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 16 20:04:49 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4H34g6p008987; Sun, 16 May 2004 20:04:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4H34f4b008961; Sun, 16 May 2004 20:04:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 20:04:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electron Power Systems? Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 13:04:30 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id i4H34T6p008910 Resent-Message-ID: <4deM4B.A.5LC.IvCqAB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54454 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to explorecraft's message of Sun, 16 May 2004 11:42:30 +0700: Hi, [snip] > >Errrr, rather difficult to imagine how anyone > would achieve 100% conversion efficiency. Indeed, but they are talking about 0.3 % conversion efficiency. Rather difficult to imagine how anyone could do so poorly. > >Perhaps the 2.2 kg is a necessary 'critical mass' > to ensure that 0.3% gets converted? This doesn't follow from the text originally quoted below. [snip] >> "We are developing a six-kw power supply that is non-polluting, >> and uses no fossil fuels >> or nuclear fuels. In production it will cost about the same as >> present gasoline powered >> six-kw power supplies, but will run for a year continuously on >> about a kilogram (2.2 >> pounds) of hydrogen and boron, compared to 7300 gallons of gasoline." [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk Hot fusion is sort of like Heaven, It's the reward you get long after everyone's dead From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 16 21:20:53 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4H4KmW0027758; Sun, 16 May 2004 21:20:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4H4KloS027739; Sun, 16 May 2004 21:20:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 21:20:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20040516212604.05819ee8@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 21:26:55 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Subject: Tribute to Dr. Eugene Mallove by Jeane Manning Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1937689234==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54455 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_1937689234==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed http://www.newenergytimes.com/news/DrEugeneMallove-JM.htm The courageous truth-seeking soul that lived in our time as Eugene Mallove, Ph.D.-- loyal husband, father, son, friend, feisty writer, witty humorous raconteur, and dedicated scientist -- that soul, that blazing spark of the divine eternal light will never die. That's all I can say. This is a loss for all of us. This world has lost a rare combination of articulate gutsy insightful scientist who described the big picture of New Energy possibilities. He didn't remain in the safe haven of accepted dogma. He sacrificed the secure salary of that haven and tramped out onto the frontier where a more inspiring life-oriented energy science is being discovered. With help from close associates he created a magazine, a New Energy laboratory, a foundation. Through discouraging times, he kept going. He was almost to the goal. My heart goes out to his family. One of the board members of the New Energy Movement, Steve Kaplan, phoned me a minute ago. We agreed that a way to honor Gene's memory would be to, as well as we are able, emulate his relentless dedicated service in trying to bring about a clean-energy future and a science that recognizes the life force. No one can replace Gene Mallove. But we can do our best with the tasks we each can do. To clear the space for a new energy paradigm, some can work toward a better system of governance or an honest monetary system, and others work for a better education system to allow a new life-enhancing paradigm. Each of us can do our bit to plant seeds of knowledge and encourage others. Call me Pollyanna if you wish. But IMHO we can choose to cringe in grief and fear after yet another tragedy, or we can choose to strengthen in determination and solidarity and, remembering Gene's fighting spirit, accomplish much. Jeane Manning, author of The Coming Energy Revolution and a forthcoming book on the New Energy Movement. --=====================_1937689234==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" http://www.newenergytimes.com/news/DrEugeneMallove-JM.htm

The courageous truth-seeking soul that lived in our time as Eugene Mallove, Ph.D.-- loyal husband, father, son, friend, feisty writer, witty humorous raconteur, and dedicated scientist -- that soul, that blazing spark of the divine eternal light will never die.

That's all I can say. This is a loss for all of us. This world has lost a rare combination of articulate gutsy insightful scientist who described the big picture of New Energy possibilities. He didn't remain in the safe haven of accepted dogma. He sacrificed the secure salary of that haven and tramped out onto the frontier where a more inspiring life-oriented energy science is being discovered. With help from close associates he created a magazine, a New Energy laboratory, a foundation. Through discouraging times, he kept going. He was almost to the goal.

My heart goes out to his family.

One of the board members of the New Energy Movement, Steve Kaplan, phoned me a minute ago. We agreed that a way to honor Gene's memory would be to, as well as we are able, emulate his relentless dedicated service in trying to bring about a clean-energy future and a science that recognizes the life force.

No one can replace Gene Mallove. But we can do our best with the tasks we each can do. To clear the space for a new energy paradigm, some can work toward a better system of governance or an honest monetary system, and others work for a better education system to allow a new life-enhancing paradigm. Each of us can do our bit to plant seeds of knowledge and encourage others. Call me Pollyanna if you wish. But IMHO we can choose to cringe in grief and fear after yet another tragedy, or we can choose to strengthen in determination and solidarity and, remembering Gene's fighting spirit, accomplish much.

Jeane Manning, author of The Coming Energy Revolution and a forthcoming book on the New Energy Movement.

--=====================_1937689234==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 16 21:30:46 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4H4Ub6p027842; Sun, 16 May 2004 21:30:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4H4UZRR027825; Sun, 16 May 2004 21:30:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 21:30:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20040516213524.0583bdc8@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 21:36:07 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Subject: Tribute to Eugene Mallove from Mohammed Alkhamis Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54456 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This tragedy is not for USA only it is for the entire world my condolences to his family, colleagues and friends. Even if the cold fusion never got to the real application this kind of work is the only possible way to any new scientific concept. We all admire his great work as an international hero. Mohammed Alkhamis Saudi Arabia From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 16 21:48:12 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4H4m26X032203; Sun, 16 May 2004 21:48:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4H4m1MT032190; Sun, 16 May 2004 21:48:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 21:48:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: Cc: Subject: RE: dreadful news Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 23:36:53 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <1084760445.11524.196576854@webmail.messagingengine.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54457 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: Malgosia Askanas [mailto:askanas@fastmail.fm] > Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 9:21 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: RE: dreadful news > > Good grief, the guy doesn't know me from Adam and he tells me that the path > I have chosen in life is a difficult and challenging one. You ask if I know you? I remember you very well from the many posts you made within the HSG news group last year. I know bluster when I see it. Takes one to know one. Face your Demons, Ms. Askanas. Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 16 23:48:09 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4H6m4pg027369; Sun, 16 May 2004 23:48:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4H6m2YL027350; Sun, 16 May 2004 23:48:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 23:48:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 22:56:32 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: dreadful news Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54458 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The news of Gene Mallove's brutal death was like a kick in the stomach. I heard the news on the Art Bell Show on the radio while driving my car at night. It came as a numbing personal loss. I feel deep sympathy for his family and his large number of friends, but his loss was far more than a personal loss. Gene was a true champion of science and academic freedom, a man who sacrificed much in his fight for academic integrity and his dream of unlimited energy for humanity. He gave so much more than he received, and it is difficult not to think perhaps he paid the ultimate price for his dedication. It is so hard to accept the idea that a senseless robbery could have ended so important a life. Though we did not share all views, Gene certainly had my deepest respect and admiration for his seemingly boundless energy in the pursuit of his principles. He was an inspiring and visionary writer who had a large impact on my personal life, and likely on the world in general. He was an effective communicator who fearlessly carried his message to even the highest levels. It was a privilege to correspond with him here on vortex and personally. His death at this most uncanny moment in his career, on the verge of success and vindication, speaks much of a rendezvous with destiny. It seems insufficient to say that he will be missed when he is so sorely missed already. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 00:00:18 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4H70Cpg032050; Mon, 17 May 2004 00:00:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4H70C0b032036; Mon, 17 May 2004 00:00:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 00:00:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220045117716450@ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l@eskimo.com" Subject: Mallove, Hoagland, & Art Bell Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 00:01:06 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d85bf665b0775db4b380f610c85bdd0f80a2d4e88014a4647c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54459 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: May 16, 2004 Vortex, It was indeed a totally unexpected shock and sadness to learn from Jed Rothwell and Krivit's posting yesterday of Dr. Eugene Mallove's death by murder at his parent's house. I have been associated with his I.E. publication in the beginning and I have marveled how he has continued to publish it to this day in the glossy cover format he demanded from the beginning. He was a tireless man in his pursuit of his science beliefs and proofs. We have lost an irreplaceable man of science for the cause of Cold Fusion and alternative energy. The event has numbed my mind until night when I remembered to tune into the weekend Art Bell program. Earlier in the day, I wondered if Richard Hoagland ('Gene's friend) had received the bad news so I visited his Enterprise web site. There was no mention. However there was a schedule announcement that a Clear Channel (Art Bell program) would happen on May 15th, ergo the reason to tune in. >From the beginning of the Art Bell program. and the listening audience is large, the murder of 'Gene was announced. I learned it was a bludgeon death to the head. The body was in the back yard of the house and there was evidence of theft of his wallet. Hoagland covered 'Gene's efforts over the years and gave a short background of how 'Gene got to be a cold fusion evangelist. Also, he mentioned that 'Gene was blacklisted by the scientist community so he could not get any qualified academic job. I can attest to that because once I tracked him down to a computer store where he was working as a computer salesman. I did not call him there again since it seemed to have caused great embarrassment to him. Hoagland thought the murder too coincidental since 'Gene was due to appear with him on inquiries heating up on cold fusion and alternative energy. There was the other interest by DOD (aside from DOE) that the simple fusion process and transmutation as exhibited by Mitsubishi could be used for nuclear enrichment for a fission bomb (by even 3rd rate countries). 'Gene, the world is gonna miss you till we meet again. Sincerely, Akira Kawasaki From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 01:06:10 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4H866pg013352; Mon, 17 May 2004 01:06:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4H8646U013338; Mon, 17 May 2004 01:06:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 01:06:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20040517011048.00ad3790@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 01:12:16 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Subject: funeral news Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54460 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Monday 5/17 1:00 am PST I've not heard directly yet, but just I read in the Union Leader that Gene's aunt, Lillian Hollander of Merrimack, N.H reports that a funeral is being planned for Monday in Concord, N.H. I will post a confirmation as soon as I can get it. Steve From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 03:00:00 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4H9xupg005795; Mon, 17 May 2004 02:59:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4H9xp1j005767; Mon, 17 May 2004 02:59:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 02:59:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Ultrafunk Popcorn release 1.47 (30-July-2003) X-URL: http://www.ultrafunk.com/products/popcorn/ X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 12:22:14 +0200 From: Michael Huffman To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Gene Mallove Reply-To: knuke@sumosound.de Message-Id: X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de auth:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54461 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: My dear friends, I am just now learning of this unthinkable tragedy, and have to express my deepest sadness. Gene was a founding member of the Vortex Group, and one of the bravest people I have ever known. For those of you who have contact with his family, please pass to them my most heartfelt condolences in our time of grief, and my offer to assist them in any way that I can. Michael T. Huffman From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 06:20:09 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4HDJwpg014475; Mon, 17 May 2004 06:19:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4HDJpF4014427; Mon, 17 May 2004 06:19:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 06:19:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20040517062522.00aed118@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 06:26:09 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Subject: Re: funeral news Monday 5/17 6:15 am PST In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040517011048.00ad3790@mail.dlsi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1970041031==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54462 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_1970041031==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Monday 5/17 6:15 am PST. I just got off the phone with Christy at IE. Union Leader news report apparently is in error and misquoted Lillian Hollander. Christy says that services are being planned today, not for today. Christy says that most likely services will be tomorrow but that is only her guess, she will of course update me when she knows. For those concerned about travel plans, Christy did say that the location for services will be in the Concord area (as opposed to the Norwich area) -Steve. --=====================_1970041031==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

Monday 5/17 6:15 am PST.  I just got off the phone with Christy at IE.  Union Leader news report apparently is in error and misquoted Lillian Hollander.  Christy says that services are being planned today, not for today.  Christy says that most likely services will be tomorrow but that is only her guess, she will of course update me when she knows.  For those concerned about travel plans, Christy did say that the location for services will be in the Concord area (as opposed to the Norwich area) -Steve. --=====================_1970041031==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 07:03:13 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4HE35Ka019581; Mon, 17 May 2004 07:03:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4HE33So019554; Mon, 17 May 2004 07:03:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 07:03:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20040517095902.01f2dad0@mail.lenr-canr.org> X-Sender: logs@lenr-canr.org@mail.lenr-canr.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 10:01:36 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: E-mail condolences to Christy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <_PapiB.A.exE.WYMqAB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54463 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I think it would be appropriate to e-mail condolences to Christy Fraisier: staff@infinite-energy.com She said some very nice things in the A.P. story. For once I am going to ignore copyright issues and quote the whole thing here. Several people have sent me very nice messages. I thank you from the bottom of my heart. I am not functioning very well. I will pull myself together and respond later. - Jed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Police investigate Norwich slaying of N.H. man May 16, 2004, 1:24 PM EDT NORWICH, Conn. -- Police are investigating the killing of a science writer who championed cold fusion. Eugene Mallove, 56, of Pembroke, N.H., died late Friday night after being assaulted at a Norwich house owned by his parents, police said. The family rented out the house. Mallove died of injuries to his head and neck, the Norwich Bulletin reported Sunday. The office of the chief state's medical examiner ruled the death a homicide. Mallove was discovered at the house after police received a report of an injured person. An initial investigation indicated a robbery and a fight had taken place, police said. Several unidentified items were taken and Mallove's minivan was missing. His 1993 green Dodge Caravan was found early Saturday in an employee parking lot at the Foxwoods Resort Casino in Mashantucket. Police were looking for anyone who saw the minivan after 7 p.m. Friday. It had several large bumper stickers on the back, including one advertising his magazine's Web site: www.infinite-energy.com. Mallove, who moved from Norwich to Bow, N.H., in 1987 and to Pembroke three years ago, was president of the Concord, N.H.-based New Energy Institute and editor-in-chief of its magazine, "Infinite Energy." The magazine's managing editor, who worked with him for six years, called Mallove the "most caring and giving person I probably have ever known -- a very successful, brilliant man." "It's hard not to love the things he loves because he's so passionate," Christy Frazier said. "He touched the lives of everybody he came in contact with." Mallove, who earned his bachelor's and master's degrees at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and his Ph.D. from Harvard University, was chief science writer at the MIT news office until he left to champion cold fusion. He also taught science writing at MIT and Boston University. He was the author of several books, including one on cold fusion that was nominated for the Pulitzer Prize: "Fire and Ice: Searching for the Truth Behind the Cold Fusion Furor." Mallove believed the infamous Pons and Fleishmann announcement in 1989 that they created nuclear fusion by running an electrical current through a jar of water was not "voodoo science," but a glimpse into an interesting topic worth investigating. That belief was partly vindicated earlier this year when the U.S. Department of Energy ordered a panel of scientists to review existing research on cold fusion to see whether it is worth pursuing. "They are now going to do the right thing. It's over 10 years late, no doubt about that, (and) should have been reviewed a long time ago ... but this is a breakthrough," Mallove said in a recent interview with The Telegraph of Nashua, N.H. "There is a huge body of positive evidence" for low-energy nuclear reactions, he said. "We have measured tritium (a byproduct of fusion), measured heat multiple ways.... There are thousands of papers, hundreds of which are bulletproof." Mallove's parents, Mitchel and Gladys Mallove, followed him to New Hampshire in 1988. His father died last year after a long illness, but he was still caring for his mother, who has Alzheimer's disease, Frazier said. He also was survived by his wife, Joanne; a daughter, Kimberlyn; a son, Ethan; and one grandson. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 07:19:59 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4HEJspg031516; Mon, 17 May 2004 07:19:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4HEJqYp031488; Mon, 17 May 2004 07:19:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 07:19:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20040517072544.00b144d0@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 07:26:11 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Subject: Re: funeral news Monday 5/17 7:20 am PST In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040517062522.00aed118@mail.dlsi.net> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040517011048.00ad3790@mail.dlsi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54464 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: (Monday 5/17 7:20 am PST -- Via phone from Christy: Funeral Services, as conveyed to her by Les Case are Tuesday, 11:00am at Temple Beth Jacob, in Concord N.H. on Broadway Street.) - Steve From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 07:21:49 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4HELeKa024813; Mon, 17 May 2004 07:21:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4HELbFf024776; Mon, 17 May 2004 07:21:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 07:21:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20040517071529.00b1db58@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 07:26:58 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Subject: Re: E-mail condolences to Christy In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040517095902.01f2dad0@mail.lenr-canr.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54465 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed - Good idea. She has done an outstanding job in answering the phones, conveying the memory of Gene to the press, and from what I hear, being a tremendous support for the family. I'm on my way shortly to Logan airport and will thank her in person. Perhaps I'll see you in N.H. Steve At 10:01 AM 5/17/2004 -0400, you wrote: >I think it would be appropriate to e-mail condolences to Christy Fraisier: >staff@infinite-energy.com > >She said some very nice things in the A.P. story. For once I am going to >ignore copyright issues and quote the whole thing here. > >Several people have sent me very nice messages. I thank you from the >bottom of my heart. I am not functioning very well. I will pull myself >together and respond later. > >- Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 07:35:00 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4HEYiKa031541; Mon, 17 May 2004 07:34:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4HEYgJM031525; Mon, 17 May 2004 07:34:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 07:34:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20040517103250.01f2a7c0@mail.lenr-canr.org> X-Sender: logs@lenr-canr.org@mail.lenr-canr.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 10:34:41 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: funeral news Monday 5/17 7:20 am PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54466 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Steve Krivit writes: > (Monday 5/17 7:20 am PST -- Via phone from Christy: Funeral Services, as > conveyed to her by Les Case are Tuesday, 11:00am at Temple Beth Jacob, in > Concord N.H. on Broadway Street.) - Steve Hold off on that for an hour. Arrangements may change a little. Christy will call me with the final word. I think people should refrain from calling her. She sounds put-upon. The family will be arriving at the office momentarily. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 07:35:25 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4HEZJpg004757; Mon, 17 May 2004 07:35:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4HEZHKT004730; Mon, 17 May 2004 07:35:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 07:35:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220045117143615190@ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l@eskimo.com" Subject: Mallove, Hoagland, & Art Bell Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 07:36:15 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8b0bc9d1c78f071f698ab34013e0e2a1ba2d4e88014a4647c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54467 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: (posted for the third time on the 17th because because of my netscape failure) May 16, 2004 Vortex, It was indeed a totally unexpected shock and sadness to learn from Jed Rothwell and Krivit's posting yesterday of Dr. Eugene Mallove's death by murder at his parent's house. I have been associated with his I.E. publication in the beginning and I have marveled how he has continued to publish it to this day in the glossy cover format he demanded from the beginning. He was a tireless man in his pursuit of his science beliefs and proofs. We have lost an irreplaceable man of science for the cause of Cold Fusion and alternative energy. The event has numbed my mind until night when I remembered to tune into the weekend Art Bell program. Earlier in the day, I wondered if Richard Hoagland ('Gene's friend) had received the bad news so I visited his Enterprise web site. There was no mention. However there was a schedule announcement that a Clear Channel (Art Bell program) would happen on May 15th, ergo the reason to tune in. From the beginning of the Art Bell program. and the listening audience is large, the murder of 'Gene was announced. Hoagland covered 'Gene's efforts over the years and gave a short background of how 'Gene was forced to become a fierce cold fusion advocate. Also, he mentioned that 'Gene was blacklisted by the scientist community so he could not get any qualified academic job. I can attest to that because once I tracked him down to a computer store where he was once reduced to working as a computer salesman. I did not call him there again since it seemed to have caused great embarrassment to him. Hoagland thought the murder too coincidental since 'Gene was due to appear with him on inquiries heating up on cold fusion and alternative energy. There was the other interest by DOD (aside from DOE) that the simple fusion process and transmutation as exhibited by Mitsubishi could be used for nuclear enrichment for a fission bomb (by even 3rd rate countries). 'Gene, I and the world is gonna miss you till we meet again. Sincerely, Akira Kawasaki From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 07:45:36 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4HEjVpg010766; Mon, 17 May 2004 07:45:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4HEjV09010719; Mon, 17 May 2004 07:45:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 07:45:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME::Lite 1.3 (F2.71; T1.001; A1.51; B2.12; Q2.03) From: "Malgosia Askanas" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 07:46:14 -0700 X-Sasl-Enc: NZ6dJVUkWvqWJRG/nxluUQ 1084805174 Message-Id: <1084805174.12009.196612672@webmail.messagingengine.com> Subject: RE: dreadful news References: In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54468 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 16 May 2004 23:36:53 -0500, "Steven Vincent Johnson" said: > You ask if I know you? I remember you very well from the many posts > you made within the HSG news group last year. Ah, that explains it. For you, Mr. Johnson, having read a dozen or so posts from someone counts as "knowledge", and having posted them counts as "a path in life". It figures. As for facing daemons, it seems to me that a few posts to Vortex suppliy one with enough daemon-facing activity to satisfy even the most daemon-starved soul. Here one has the unique opportunity to have a face-to-face encounter with the daemons of smugness, self-satisfied ignorance, hypocritical piety, indolence posturing as superior judgement, and meanness of spirit posturing as "morality". And on rare occasions, one even gets the superb spectacle of these daemons joining voices to sing pious eulogies over someone who has spent his life fighting, however gently and with boundless largesse, to exorcise them. But you know, Mr. Johnson, even facing daemons is not what it purportedly used to be. You're out of sync with the times. Those daemons of today are much like Wonderbread: soft, crustless, bland, squishy, pre-packaged, mass-produced, always and everywhere the same. They win their fights simply by virtue of their ubiquity, sameness, and indifference. Daemons as cheap commodity. Brrrrr. -malgosia -- http://www.fastmail.fm - The professional email service From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 08:06:20 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4HF6Bpg022516; Mon, 17 May 2004 08:06:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4HF6AvC022503; Mon, 17 May 2004 08:06:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 08:06:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-2200451171577110@ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l@eskimo.com" Subject: Mallove, Hoagland, & Art Bell Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 08:07:07 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8b0bc9d1c78f071f67415857f2d2b77f8387f7b89c61deb1d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54469 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: (posted for the third time on the 17th because because of my netscape failure) May 16, 2004 Vortex, It was indeed a totally unexpected shock and sadness to learn from Jed Rothwell and Krivit's posting yesterday of Dr. Eugene Mallove's death by murder at his parent's house. I have been associated with his I.E. publication in the beginning and I have marveled how he has continued to publish it to this day in the glossy cover format he demanded from the beginning. He was a tireless man in his pursuit of his science beliefs and proofs. We have lost an irreplaceable man of science for the cause of Cold Fusion and alternative energy. The event has numbed my mind until night when I remembered to tune into the weekend Art Bell program. Earlier in the day, I wondered if Richard Hoagland ('Gene's friend) had received the bad news so I visited his Enterprise web site. There was no mention. However there was a schedule announcement that a Clear Channel (Art Bell program) would happen on May 15th, ergo the reason to tune in. From the beginning of the Art Bell program. and the listening audience is large, the murder of 'Gene was announced. Hoagland covered 'Gene's efforts over the years and gave a short background of how 'Gene was forced to become a fierce cold fusion advocate. Also, he mentioned that 'Gene was blacklisted by the scientist community so he could not get any qualified academic job. I can attest to that because once I tracked him down to a computer store where he was once reduced to working as a computer salesman. I did not call him there again since it seemed to have caused great embarrassment to him. Hoagland thought the murder too coincidental since 'Gene was due to appear with him on inquiries heating up on cold fusion and alternative energy. There was the other interest by DOD (aside from DOE) that the simple fusion process and transmutation as exhibited by Mitsubishi could be used for nuclear enrichment for a fission bomb (by even 3rd rate countries). 'Gene, I and the world is gonna miss you till we meet again. Sincerely, Akira Kawasaki From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 08:25:12 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4HFObKa020890; Mon, 17 May 2004 08:24:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4HFOVM4020811; Mon, 17 May 2004 08:24:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 08:24:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20040517110228.01f2f438@mail.lenr-canr.org> X-Sender: logs@lenr-canr.org@mail.lenr-canr.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 11:23:40 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Aetherometry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54470 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Malgosia Askanas writes: > What a dreadful bunch of hypocrites you guys are. Everybody knows that > for the past couple of years, Gene was passionate about Aetherometry, > and wanted nothing so much as to see it read, understood, engaged with > intelligently, and funded. Yet did any of you make the slightest effort > to > understand his passion, or even take it seriously? No. Yes, we did. Ed Storms in particular devoted many hours to trying to understand it. I wrote a detailed description of what I thought was wrong with the experiments, with a very specific list of problems. Gene never addressed these problems, so as far as I can tell, the Aetherometry claims have no merit. It would hypocritical for us to accept a claim just because someone we like advocates it. You are not supposed to let personal feelings or people's reputations affect objective judgement, but in the case of Aetherometry, Ed and I (and probably many others) bent over backwards, and gave the subject more credibility than we would have normally, precisely because Gene took it seriously. If anything, we should be criticized for spending more time on the subject than it deserved, because of our personal regard for Gene. Gene was right about many things, and wrong about many others. He was often taken in by scoundrels because he was so open minded, and because he had hope, and faith, and he believed that we have much more to learn from nature. He thought that the laws of physics as presently understood are probably wrong, and he was very upset about that. Most researchers I know think the laws are mostly correct, and need only tweaking around the edges. I am not a member of the Physics Congregation. I cannot judge whether the textbook laws are right or wrong, and I could not care less about it. As long as the laws work pretty well and provide useful answers for a given set of questions, they are right enough for me. > On > this very forum, Gene posted a 4-part article trying to share his > enthusiasm > for Aetherometry with all of Vortex. Did any of you, as a result, buy > a single Aetherometry monograph? I cannot make head or tail of Aetherometry monographs, and the experiments prove nothing as far as I can see. But, in any case, people do not buy scientific monographs anymore. They download them for free. Did you propose to establish a fund > dedicated to helping Gene increase people's awareness of the value of > Aetherometry? No, none of this. Why on earth would we fund this when we think the claims themselves have no merit? There are millions of wrong ideas. We do not go around promoting mistakes just because our friends make them. Aetherometry advocates do not need our help. If they wish to convince people, they should perform good experiments with conventional equipment; they should describe their work in the conventional language of physics and thermodynamics; and they should publish their results for free on the net. That is what cold fusion researchers have done. They may not have convinced a majority, but they have persuaded hundreds of thousands of people to read their papers, which is probably way more than the number of people who have read Aetherometry monographs. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 09:58:03 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4HGvhKa019443; Mon, 17 May 2004 09:57:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4HGvbCX019415; Mon, 17 May 2004 09:57:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 09:57:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20040517100238.04ce1b20@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 10:02:57 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Subject: Funeral Services announcement Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54471 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: http://www.uahcweb.org/nh/nh001/ Steve From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 09:58:07 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4HGvpKa019536; Mon, 17 May 2004 09:57:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4HGvnOl019503; Mon, 17 May 2004 09:57:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 09:57:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20040517125540.01f211a0@mail.lenr-canr.org> X-Sender: logs@lenr-canr.org@mail.lenr-canr.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 12:57:33 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Confirm funeral Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54472 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Temple Beth Jacob 67 Broadway Concord, New Hampshire 03301 (603) 228-8581 Funeral Services for Dr. Eugene Mallove will be Tuesday, May 18, 2004 11:00 AM See: http://www.uahcweb.org/nh/nh001/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 10:38:25 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4HHcHKa031961; Mon, 17 May 2004 10:38:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4HHcCrc031933; Mon, 17 May 2004 10:38:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 10:38:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME::Lite 1.3 (F2.71; T1.001; A1.51; B2.12; Q2.03) From: "Malgosia Askanas" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 10:38:06 -0700 X-Sasl-Enc: 4z2ni9v96FI/Ky5yBBcDdQ 1084815486 Message-Id: <1084815486.19064.196625136@webmail.messagingengine.com> Subject: Re: Aetherometry References: <6.0.3.0.2.20040517110228.01f2f438@mail.lenr-canr.org> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040517110228.01f2f438@mail.lenr-canr.org> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54473 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Mr. Rothwell, if I hadn't seen you, over the years, in "action", I would almost be tempted to believe in your own conviction, so innocently and helplessly expressed, of the honesty of your effort and the goodness of your will. But regrettably, I am not thusly tempted. I have seen your manner of "addressing problems" in Aetherometry and I know, just as well as you do, that it has always been deliberately sloppy, ignorant, obfuscating, misinformed and misinforming, often self-contradictory. And you also know that your "specific list(s) of problems" have been addressed a number of times on this forum -- sometimes by Gene and sometimes by Mr. Dowland, who seems to be the only person on this list, besides Gene, who has actually studied the monographs and who does not judge the potential interest of a science by whether or not it comes for free. But, in the true spirit of an aspiring mob leader, you have never bothered to deal with the responses to your "objections". Your supposed "detailed descriptions of what was wrong" have always been hit-and-run accidents, because you have no desire to understand. But the issue is not your own, Mr. Rothwell's, desire (or lack of desire) to understand. Who cares whether you have it or not? What is truly amazing is that none of this whole rather numerous list of people who regard themselves as open minds and champions of new energy, and who are now trying do outdo each other in professing their appreciation of Gene, has ever taken it upon themselves to study and evaluate on their own something that he valued so highly. Not one. And as for choosing one's scientific passions according to whether or not they come for free, it's a pretty pathetic argument. To publish scientific papers costs money. Somebody always pays for it. If one has a genuine interest in something, one does not demand that someone else should pay the expenses of this interest. Not in music, not in art, not in literature, not in gardening, not in military history. There is no reason why science should be an exception to this -- especially on a forum that gathers together people with a purported passion for science. -malgosia -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Email service worth paying for. Try it for free From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 10:52:19 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4HHq2Ka003571; Mon, 17 May 2004 10:52:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4HHq1Qv003553; Mon, 17 May 2004 10:52:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 10:52:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: "Johnson, Steven" To: "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" Cc: "Johnson, Steven" Subject: RE: dreadful news Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 12:51:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-PMX-Version: 4.6.0.97784, Antispam-Core: 4.6.0.97340, Antispam-Data: 2004.5.17.100928 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54474 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: Malgosia Askanas [mailto:askanas@fastmail.fm] > Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 9:46 AM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: RE: dreadful news > > On Sun, 16 May 2004 23:36:53 -0500, "Steven Vincent Johnson" > said: > > > You ask if I know you? I remember you very well from the many posts > > you made within the HSG news group last year. > > Ah, that explains it. For you, Mr. Johnson, having read a > dozen or so posts from someone counts as "knowledge", and > having posted them counts as "a path in life". It figures. > ... > -malgosia > > -- Just so we're clear on this point, I'm not referring to "demons" in any kind of a religious context. It's obvious that the senseless murder of Eugene Mallove has made a deep and personal impact upon you as it has among many in this group. Castigating me, or the membership of vortex for their lack of support for Aetherometry will not bring Eugene back, nor will it help you deal with the real roots of why I suspect you are feeling desperate. Deep down I suspect you fear the possibility of grieving something far more personal than just Eugene's death. Eugene's death, however, has symbolized it for you in the most acute way. Seek a safe and supportive place so that you can face that personal demon of yours. You can survive it. BTW, I admire the creativity you occasionally show in your literary style. I wish my own writing was as energetic. Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 10:56:53 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4HHujpg009821; Mon, 17 May 2004 10:56:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4HHuSNO009728; Mon, 17 May 2004 10:56:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 10:56:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20040517134415.01f244b8@mail.lenr-canr.org> X-Sender: logs@lenr-canr.org@mail.lenr-canr.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 13:54:27 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Aetherometry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54475 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Malgosia Askanas writes: And > you also know that your "specific list(s) of problems" have been > addressed > a number of times on this forum -- sometimes by Gene and sometimes by > Mr. Dowland . . . I do not think these issues were addressed. If they were, I never saw the responses. I am quite sure Gene would have communicated them directly to me; he never hesitated to send me information. He told me once or twice that he intended to answer my objections, but he never got a chance to do so. If you have the answers to my questions, I suggest you post them here, rather than posting invective and ad hominem attacks against me. I assure you, no one here cares what you think of me -- or what I think of you, for that matter. > understand. Who cares whether you have it or not? What is truly amazing > is that none of this whole rather numerous list of people who regard > themselves as open minds and champions of new energy, and who are now > trying do outdo each other in professing their appreciation of Gene, has > ever taken it upon themselves to study and evaluate on their own > something > that he valued so highly. Not one. That is incorrect. As I said, Ed Storms took it upon himself to study and evaluate the results. He devoted a great deal of time to it. There may have been others as well; I wouldn't know. I have no means of keeping track of how many people read your papers. > And as for choosing one's scientific passions according to whether or not > they come for free, it's a pretty pathetic argument. To publish > scientific > papers costs money. Somebody always pays for it. I did not say it is a good thing that people now expect scientific information for free. I myself have paid a great deal of money out of my own pocket to supply people with free information. I said that people expect free information, and they will not pay for it. Whether that is good or bad, fair or unfair, it is how things work nowadays. Either you publish for free, or you must accept the fact that no one will read what you have to say. There is no point in complaining about a gigantic social change such as the Internet, and you should not take the effects of it personally. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 12:31:09 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4HJUwF1008132; Mon, 17 May 2004 12:30:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4HJUsor008085; Mon, 17 May 2004 12:30:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 12:30:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME::Lite 1.3 (F2.71; T1.001; A1.51; B2.12; Q2.03) From: "Malgosia Askanas" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 12:30:36 -0700 X-Sasl-Enc: 414t27Wfay7zDulpZJrssw 1084822236 Message-Id: <1084822236.12736.196631147@webmail.messagingengine.com> Subject: RE: dreadful news References: In-Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id i4HJUfF1007997 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54476 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Mr. Johnson, I am glad you occasionally admire my writing. I wish I could express a matching admiration for your skills as a psychologist or a tactician, but alas! I cannot. Your capacity for psychological insight is nil, and your tactics are silly, since you base them on delivering psychological insights (and in a patronizing tone, to boot) for which you have no capacity. To paraphrase the time-worn story about the student who brought her knitting to class: when I castigate, I castigate, and when I grieve, I grieve. > Castigating me, or the membership of vortex for their lack > of support for Aetherometry will not bring Eugene back, > nor will it help you deal with the real roots of > why I suspect you are feeling desperate. Oy vey. What I am feeling quite desperate about is the overwhelming idiocy of your responses. In any case, what I was "castigating" the membership of Vortex for was not their lack of support for Aetherometry, but the hypocrisy of their eulogies (since you seem to have gotten even that little detail wrong). I think you should seek a safe and supportive place that would help you get over your addiction to psychobabble. Maybe there is a 12-step program for this. -malgosia -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Same, same, but different… From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 12:42:52 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4HJgYM9009621; Mon, 17 May 2004 12:42:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4HJgC4l009527; Mon, 17 May 2004 12:42:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 12:42:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME::Lite 1.3 (F2.71; T1.001; A1.51; B2.12; Q2.03) From: "Malgosia Askanas" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 12:39:36 -0700 X-Sasl-Enc: b4681rM9eL3DMn7wDholig 1084822776 Message-Id: <1084822776.13963.196633142@webmail.messagingengine.com> Subject: Re: Aetherometry References: <6.0.3.0.2.20040517134415.01f244b8@mail.lenr-canr.org> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040517134415.01f244b8@mail.lenr-canr.org> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54477 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 17 May 2004 13:54:27 -0400, "Jed Rothwell" said: > If you have the answers to my questions, I suggest you post them here, > rather than posting invective and ad hominem attacks against me. If you are interested, I am sure you are perfectly capable of digging up the still-unanswered answers in the Vortex archives. > I did not say it is a good thing that people now expect scientific > information for free. I myself have paid a great deal of money out of my > own pocket to supply people with free information. I said that people > expect free information, and they will not pay for it. Whether that is good > or bad, fair or unfair, it is how things work nowadays. That's funny: the modern, inverted and statistical, version of Kant's categorical imperative: "I will act in such and such a way because that's how things work nowadays". Nobody is responsible for anything, things just "work" a certain way. Thank you very much for providing me with this fine piece of amusement. -malgosia -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Access all of your messages and folders wherever you are From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 12:45:56 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4HJjgM9010886; Mon, 17 May 2004 12:45:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4HJje6m010841; Mon, 17 May 2004 12:45:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 12:45:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007601c43c3f$09890f40$3d80b341@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Vacuum Neutrino-Field Force? Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 13:44:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940e0ea677439e524d429a0c960f6fb24ce350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54478 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: For every stable (in the nucleus) neutron formed there is one less antineutrino available for the neutrino-antineutrino balance in the Ether: Proton + Proton ---> Deuteron + neutrino + e+ or Proton-Electron-Proton ---> Deuteron + neutrino The non-zero mass implies a non-zero charge, hence the ether should have a pervasive charge that can act on a dipole, such as the T.T. Brown plate capacitor. IMHO, this supports T.T. Browns contention that a large Voltage and Dielectric constant on the capacitor Q = CV results in more force. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 13:00:01 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4HJxtF1018576; Mon, 17 May 2004 12:59:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4HJxsgT018552; Mon, 17 May 2004 12:59:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 12:59:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy@metro.lakes.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 15:00:45 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Tesla Tech Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1127298425==_ma============" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54479 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --============_-1127298425==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Seen on Pure Energy Systems News Have any of you people heard of Tesla Tech? I'm wondering if it has any connection to Dennis Lee? ExtraOrdinary Technology Conference 2004, to be held in Salt Lake City on July 31 - Aug. 1, is seeking two additional presenters on the subject of magnetic motors. A working demo would be preferable, but a review of the field in general is also acceptable. The conference is being sponsored by TeslaTech and the Institute of New Energy, who specialize in cutting edge technologies that tap into inexhaustible energy sources such as zero point energy. Topics will include Tesla technology, cosmic (radiant) energy, Brown's gas, low temperature plasma, GEET, ElectroGravitation, ElectroMedicine, and magnetic healing. Speakers include Sonne Ward, Dale Pond, Bruce Perreault, Tom Valone and many others. --------- Conference Website: http://www.teslatech.info/ttevents/2004conf/prgframe.htm --============_-1127298425==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Tesla Tech


Seen on Pure Energy Systems News
Have any of you people heard of Tesla Tech? I'm wondering if it has any connection to Dennis Lee?

ExtraOrdinary Technology Conference 2004, to be held in Salt Lake City on July 31 - Aug. 1, is seeking two additional presenters on the subject of magnetic motors.  A working demo would be preferable, but a review of the field in general is also acceptable.

The conference is being sponsored by TeslaTech and the Institute of New Energy, who specialize in cutting edge technologies that tap into inexhaustible energy sources such as zero point energy.  Topics will include Tesla technology, cosmic (radiant) energy, Brown's gas, low temperature plasma, GEET, ElectroGravitation, ElectroMedicine, and magnetic healing.  Speakers include Sonne Ward, Dale Pond, Bruce Perreault, Tom Valone and many others.
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Conference Website: <http://www.teslatech.info/ttevents/2004conf/prgframe.htm>http://www.teslatech.info/ttevents/2004conf/prgframe.htm
--============_-1127298425==_ma============-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 13:01:51 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4HK1lF1019099; Mon, 17 May 2004 13:01:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4HK1loI019090; Mon, 17 May 2004 13:01:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 13:01:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Erikbaard@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 16:02:26 EDT Subject: Re: dreadful news To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1084824146" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54480 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -------------------------------1084824146 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can we end this "dreadful" thread? -------------------------------1084824146 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Can we end this "dreadful" thread? -------------------------------1084824146-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 13:24:44 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4HKOdXr026358; Mon, 17 May 2004 13:24:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4HKOccS026338; Mon, 17 May 2004 13:24:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 13:24:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Vacuum Neutrino-Field Force? Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 16:52:00 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <007601c43c3f$09890f40$3d80b341@computer> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54481 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Fred. So you think the aether is becoming more basic or acid due to this reaction? I guess you'd need a aether pH meter to measure it... Either way, isn't sitting in the charged aether a bit like being in the center of a charged metal sphere? How can a simple dipole act against this? K. -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 2:45 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Vacuum Neutrino-Field Force? For every stable (in the nucleus) neutron formed there is one less antineutrino available for the neutrino-antineutrino balance in the Ether: Proton + Proton ---> Deuteron + neutrino + e+ or Proton-Electron-Proton ---> Deuteron + neutrino The non-zero mass implies a non-zero charge, hence the ether should have a pervasive charge that can act on a dipole, such as the T.T. Brown plate capacitor. IMHO, this supports T.T. Browns contention that a large Voltage and Dielectric constant on the capacitor Q = CV results in more force. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 13:33:06 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4HKX0Xr029418; Mon, 17 May 2004 13:33:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4HKWpBR029352; Mon, 17 May 2004 13:32:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 13:32:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: "Johnson, Steven" To: "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" Cc: "Johnson, Steven" Subject: RE: dreadful news Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 15:33:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-PMX-Version: 4.6.0.97784, Antispam-Core: 4.6.0.97340, Antispam-Data: 2004.5.17.100957 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54482 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: Malgosia Askanas [mailto:askanas@fastmail.fm] > Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 2:31 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: RE: dreadful news > ... > > > Castigating me, or the membership of vortex for their lack > > of support for Aetherometry will not bring Eugene back, > > nor will it help you deal with the real roots of > > why I suspect you are feeling desperate. > > Oy vey. What I am feeling quite desperate about is the > overwhelming idiocy of your responses. In any case, what I > was "castigating" the membership of Vortex for was not their > lack of support for Aetherometry, but the hypocrisy of > their eulogies (since you seem to have gotten even that > little detail wrong). I think you should seek a safe > and supportive place that would help you get over your > addiction to psychobabble. Maybe there is a 12-step > program for this. > > -malgosia > I fear there is no 12-step program available for recovering psychobabbleolics, like me. Guess I'll have to seek support elsewhere. The eulogies expressed in the memory of Eugene Mallove have not been hypocritical. They are the expressions of shared grief. In the meantime, what will you do when the vortex membership eventually tires of your provocations and starts ignoring you, or worse, bans you from this list? Whom will you pick a fight with next? What distraction will you throw yourself into next to avoid facing what I suspect is really upsetting you? The number of windmills left to slay grows fewer by the day - by the hour. Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 13:43:23 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4HKhHXr000754; Mon, 17 May 2004 13:43:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4HKhF79000731; Mon, 17 May 2004 13:43:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 13:43:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME::Lite 1.3 (F2.71; T1.001; A1.51; B2.12; Q2.03) From: "Malgosia Askanas" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 13:43:53 -0700 X-Sasl-Enc: D6UU9JGXrUB6UBdTefzgvg 1084826633 Message-Id: <1084826633.28858.196637992@webmail.messagingengine.com> Subject: Re: dreadful news References: In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54483 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 17 May 2004 16:02:26 EDT, Erikbaard@aol.com said: > Can we end this "dreadful" thread? Certainly. I am done. -malgosia -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Send your email first class From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 14:06:01 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4HL5jCx004775; Mon, 17 May 2004 14:05:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4HL5fE6004749; Mon, 17 May 2004 14:05:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 14:05:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00b401c43c4a$381715e0$3d80b341@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: Subject: Re: Vacuum Neutrino-Field Force? Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 15:04:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9404f3a627eefcb7cb0cca6d635f85ebb18350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54484 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Nagel" To: Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 3:52 PM Subject: RE: Vacuum Neutrino-Field Force? Keith wrote, > Hey Fred. > > So you think the aether is becoming more basic or acid > due to this reaction? I guess you'd need a aether pH > meter to measure it... Best way is T.T. Brown's capacitor experiment, I guess. > > Either way, isn't sitting in the charged aether a bit like > being in the center of a charged metal sphere? Is that either way or ether way? With a plate capacitor in the Net Charge Neutrino Environment (more net "Negative"charge of Neutrinos than Positive charge of Antineutrinos) there should be a force against the negative capacitor plate. - + - - ____|_____ - - - _________ - - | - >How can a > simple dipole act against this? A Flat Plate Capacitor and it's Charged Dielectric is a Simple Dipole. Isn't it? Regards, Frederick > > K. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] > Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 2:45 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Vacuum Neutrino-Field Force? > > > For every stable (in the nucleus) neutron formed there is one less antineutrino > available for the neutrino-antineutrino balance in the Ether: > > Proton + Proton ---> Deuteron + neutrino + e+ > or > Proton-Electron-Proton ---> Deuteron + neutrino > > The non-zero mass implies a non-zero charge, hence the ether should have a pervasive > charge that can act on a dipole, such as the T.T. Brown plate capacitor. > > IMHO, this supports T.T. Browns contention that a large > Voltage and Dielectric constant on the capacitor Q = CV results in more force. > > Regards, > > Frederick > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 14:06:18 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4HL6BXr007871; Mon, 17 May 2004 14:06:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4HL69GE007847; Mon, 17 May 2004 14:06:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 14:06:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-2200451172179580@ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l@eskimo.com" Subject: test Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 14:07:09 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8a928a359651ac78e0de7bc1e5eaaa45d3ca473d225a0f487350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54485 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: test transmission From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 14:14:22 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4HLE1Cx007082; Mon, 17 May 2004 14:14:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4HLDw0O007047; Mon, 17 May 2004 14:13:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 14:13:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00d201c43c4b$5f52eb60$3d80b341@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Indoor Air Filters Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 15:13:02 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940415b8798ff1d32a073f3dd8d37dcdf7a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54486 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Interesting take on the "Ionic Breeze" (Sharper Image) infomercial that tells us how great their product is. http://healthandenergy.com/indoor_air_filters.htm Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 14:35:43 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4HLZWCx014779; Mon, 17 May 2004 14:35:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4HLZUBZ014766; Mon, 17 May 2004 14:35:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 14:35:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40A93015.9050606@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 17:35:17 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Indoor Air Filters References: <00d201c43c4b$5f52eb60$3d80b341@computer> In-Reply-To: <00d201c43c4b$5f52eb60$3d80b341@computer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54487 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: >Interesting take on the "Ionic Breeze" (Sharper Image) infomercial that tells us how >great their product is. > >http://healthandenergy.com/indoor_air_filters.htm > 3M and others are making standard sized filters of varying grades to fit most home HVAC systems. They're a bit pricey; but, they last for up to 3 months. http://www.3m.com/us/home_leisure/filtrete/40_products.jhtml From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 15:51:14 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4HMovjS010831; Mon, 17 May 2004 15:51:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4HMoqK8010779; Mon, 17 May 2004 15:50:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 15:50:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Indoor Air Filters Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 19:16:10 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <40A93015.9050606@rtpatlanta.com> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54488 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi. The quadra units are much better negative ion generators than air filters; they make the air basic. The power supply makes a spanking ion propulsion engine, BTW. I bought one discounted and I don't regret it but it's not a HEPA filter. I seem to remember one of those infomercials showing a man using the zenion product to clear a room of industrial solvent smell. Do you think the resulting conflagration would produce some excess energy? Jones might. K. -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:blantont@rtpatlanta.com] Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 5:35 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Indoor Air Filters Frederick Sparber wrote: >Interesting take on the "Ionic Breeze" (Sharper Image) infomercial that tells us how >great their product is. > >http://healthandenergy.com/indoor_air_filters.htm > 3M and others are making standard sized filters of varying grades to fit most home HVAC systems. They're a bit pricey; but, they last for up to 3 months. http://www.3m.com/us/home_leisure/filtrete/40_products.jhtml From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 16:34:23 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4HNYCjS026768; Mon, 17 May 2004 16:34:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4HNYBne026757; Mon, 17 May 2004 16:34:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 16:34:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220045117233356340@ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Indoor Air Filters Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 16:33:56 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d88accbf8a2f06c452cfefb3d5fa69dcad3899c79c7caf56c9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: <0ht3AC.A.BiG.zvUqAB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54489 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: May 17, 2004 Vortex, Perhaps an additional improvement on an existing filtration system that everyone of us already has may also help. Application of Rogaine in the nostrils should increase nostril hair growth. Now, also taking some aspirin not only thins the blood but seems to increase the nasal fluids. Voila! a self contained portable 24/7 system you automatically renew with some Kleenex. Oh, and let the hair grow out to increase effectiveness. -ak- > [Original Message] > From: Frederick Sparber > To: > Date: 5/17/2004 2:14:07 PM > Subject: Re: Indoor Air Filters > > Interesting take on the "Ionic Breeze" (Sharper Image) infomercial that tells us how > great their product is. > > http://healthandenergy.com/indoor_air_filters.htm > > Regards, > > Frederick > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 17:36:49 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4I0ahEq013534; Mon, 17 May 2004 17:36:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4I0aVQ9013463; Mon, 17 May 2004 17:36:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 17:36:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005801c43c67$f9b1e5a0$f925e544@lv.cox.net> From: "Vince Cockeram" To: References: <00d201c43c4b$5f52eb60$3d80b341@computer> Subject: Re: Indoor Air Filters Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 16:37:51 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: <6Xj1VD.A.TSD.OqVqAB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54490 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: No less interesting was the Consumer Reports article that concluded this air cleaner was a piece of junk. Reference CR February 2002 Page 46. "Ads for this unit tout it's silence and miserly power consumption. Both are attributable to it's lack of a fan. But so is it's disappointing performance; we found almost no measurable reduction in airborne particles." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 1:13 PM Subject: Re: Indoor Air Filters > Interesting take on the "Ionic Breeze" (Sharper Image) infomercial that tells us how > great their product is. > > http://healthandenergy.com/indoor_air_filters.htm > > Regards, > > Frederick > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 18:07:51 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4I17lVE021926; Mon, 17 May 2004 18:07:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4I17jeo021912; Mon, 17 May 2004 18:07:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 18:07:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000701c43c6c$0b018500$2e89b341@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <00d201c43c4b$5f52eb60$3d80b341@computer> <005801c43c67$f9b1e5a0$f925e544@lv.cox.net> Subject: Re: Indoor Air Filters Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 19:06:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940e803f95ffa6144ba45c75cf6d69c0327350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54491 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vince Cockeram" To: Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 6:37 PM Subject: Re: Indoor Air Filters Hi Vince, you wrote: > > No less interesting was the Consumer Reports article that concluded this air > cleaner was a piece of junk. > Reference CR February 2002 Page 46. > "Ads for this unit tout it's silence and miserly power consumption. Both are > attributable to it's lack of a fan. But so is it's disappointing > performance; we found almost no measurable reduction in airborne particles." > I bought the smaller Honeywell "Environizer" (~ $100.00 at Radioshack): > http://support.radioshack.com/support_tutorials/environizer/ionize1.htm After it ran 3 weeks and I started getting headaches, I checked the collector for collected particles. A kleenex rub revealed NO DUST, even though my PC monitor had collectedd a layer about an 0.010 inches thick. : My brother had bought one shortly after I had, and got the headaches and NO DUST on the collector either. I went back to my Sears $200.00+, 3-speed HEPA unit. With the fan on low it sounds like a quiet ride in a jet airliner. zzzz zzzz :-) Regards, Frederick > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frederick Sparber" > To: > Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 1:13 PM > Subject: Re: Indoor Air Filters > > > > Interesting take on the "Ionic Breeze" (Sharper Image) infomercial that > tells us how > > great their product is. > > > > http://healthandenergy.com/indoor_air_filters.htm > > > > Regards, > > > > Frederick > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 18:13:34 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4I1DRVE023946; Mon, 17 May 2004 18:13:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4I1DPqH023931; Mon, 17 May 2004 18:13:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 18:13:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40A962DF.3030608@ihug.co.nz> Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 13:11:59 +1200 From: John Berry User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: OT Let's roll Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54492 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Sorry to post something so off topic, But I'd just like to know what the readers make of this. (It is after all an important subject) For some time now this website: http://www.letsroll911.org/ has had significant and solid proof that what happened on the 11th of September 2001 when plans flew into the World Trade Center was not what it seemed. The videos at that site show the same footage of the planes hitting the WTC that we have all seen, just they slow it down. (multiple videos from different new sources, different angles) I do not wish to convince the readers of this list of anything, I simply want to know what people reactions are when faced with an uneasy truth. Will you argue it is a trick of the light, or a hoax? Summarily dismiss without looking because it can't possibly be true? Decide it's not important? Or not make your mind up about it, an anomaly? Or will you accept it? And if so does this drive you to tell others, start a protest? Or figure that there is nothing you can do about it anyway? I would like to know how people react to such revolutionary yet officially ignored info. Please post your view whatever it is directly to the list, or if you wish to me directly. So please visit: http://www.letsroll911.org/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 18:57:48 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4I1vWRg015302; Mon, 17 May 2004 18:57:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4I1vTOI015284; Mon, 17 May 2004 18:57:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 18:57:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: dreadful news Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 08:54:53 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <1084826633.28858.196637992@webmail.messagingengine.com> Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54493 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Interesting reaction from mainstream anti-conspiracists: Cold Fusion on the Cold Slab, Dr. Eugene F. Mallove Murdered. http://www.atsnn.com/story/50762.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 19:29:17 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4I2T4VE007064; Mon, 17 May 2004 19:29:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4I2T2pw007045; Mon, 17 May 2004 19:29:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 19:29:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40A97590.1040100@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 22:31:44 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT Let's roll References: <40A962DF.3030608@ihug.co.nz> In-Reply-To: <40A962DF.3030608@ihug.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54494 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > But I'd just like to know what the readers make of this. (It is after > all an important subject) This is clearly a stray "sprite" of the starboard engine, an artifact of MPEG compression technology in digital video cameras. Look at the same video a few seconds before the collision. You can see the "sprite" jump from the wing to the fuselage as the aircraft banks port into the building. Use a little common sense. You can't simply add a "pod" the size of a 747 engine without major modifications to the aircraft structure. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 19:48:24 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4I2mARg026952; Mon, 17 May 2004 19:48:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4I2m9Os026937; Mon, 17 May 2004 19:48:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 19:48:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 22:48:50 -0400 From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: dreadfull news MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <52DAA903.117E1231.0AB10C99@aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 X-AOL-IP: 63.188.1.42 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54495 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I am very sad at this news. I pray for Gene. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 20:06:23 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4I364VE015150; Mon, 17 May 2004 20:06:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4I35lvL015043; Mon, 17 May 2004 20:05:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 20:05:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40A97E20.90501@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 23:08:16 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT Let's roll References: <40A962DF.3030608@ihug.co.nz> <40A97590.1040100@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: <40A97590.1040100@rtpatlanta.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <8clZBD.A.6qD.K2XqAB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54496 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > > > John Berry wrote: > >> But I'd just like to know what the readers make of this. (It is after >> all an important subject) > > > > This is clearly a stray "sprite" of the starboard engine, an artifact > of MPEG compression technology in digital video cameras. Look at the > same video a few seconds before the collision. You can see the > "sprite" jump from the wing to the fuselage as the aircraft banks port > into the building. > > Use a little common sense. You can't simply add a "pod" the size of a > 747 engine without major modifications to the aircraft structure. Er, 767. Check the dimensions. The "pod" is the same size of the engines. It actually appears to move as the frames progress. Clearly a stray sprite. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 20:55:20 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4I3rsRg009984; Mon, 17 May 2004 20:55:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4I3rqBf009966; Mon, 17 May 2004 20:53:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 20:53:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40A988AA.8080305@ihug.co.nz> Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 15:53:14 +1200 From: John Berry User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT Let's roll References: <40A962DF.3030608@ihug.co.nz> <40A97590.1040100@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: <40A97590.1040100@rtpatlanta.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54497 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thank you for your reply, as delusional as it is. (If you only saw a few stills, I guess this might be a harsh statement, there is video that proves very clearly it isn't a sprite) I don't really care to convince you as I am interested more in what people think about it straight off without being convinced by someone, but you are most certainly wrong. The pod is in all frames from many different camera angles, perhaps the animation didn't load for you? The pod isn't just a momentary sprite, an artifact of MPEG compression but as large and clearly visible as the engines, it casts a shadow and is in hundreds of frames. It is recorded on all the different cameras and their respective angles, also an orange flash can be seen on both the videos of the first and second plane hitting both towers. If the pod is a sprite, I could just as well say the whole plane is a sprite. And yes your right, the pod would not have been easily added, so? Regrettably I don't think that your disbelief is caused by lack of evidence but rather pathological unwillingness to come to this uncomfortably conclusion. Thank you very much for your reply, it was interesting. (If disappointing to see that people will let their preconceptions twist what they see and invent anything to remain in the comfort zone) Terry Blanton wrote: > > > John Berry wrote: > >> But I'd just like to know what the readers make of this. (It is after >> all an important subject) > > > > This is clearly a stray "sprite" of the starboard engine, an artifact > of MPEG compression technology in digital video cameras. Look at the > same video a few seconds before the collision. You can see the > "sprite" jump from the wing to the fuselage as the aircraft banks port > into the building. > > Use a little common sense. You can't simply add a "pod" the size of a > 747 engine without major modifications to the aircraft structure. > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 21:41:20 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4I4dqRg023112; Mon, 17 May 2004 21:41:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4I4dpTW023094; Mon, 17 May 2004 21:39:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 21:39:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Dean Miller To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Dr. Eugene Mallove, connections Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 23:39:44 -0500 Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: <5h3ja0dsaqu8huv23uutpdbhschcpf7asc@4ax.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040515112819.05ec9000@mail.dlsi.net> In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040515112819.05ec9000@mail.dlsi.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-RAVMilter-Version: 8.4.3(snapshot 20030212) (MidIowa1.midiowa.net) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id i4I4cRRg022887 Resent-Message-ID: <9QGT5.A.uoF.XOZqAB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54498 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I was shocked and saddened by the news of Gene Mallove's death, moreso than the death of Chris Tinsley. Both were searchers after truth, no matter where it took them. Both, though trained in hard sciences, were adaptable enough to investigate hints of what might have been left out of our current understanding of physics -- hints that began with Faraday and Maxwell. These hints take us far beyond what current physical science takes for granted. Along these lines, Gene had another, implied, connection with other areas of anomalous investigation. Here is an example of one such: ***************************** To All Concerned, A good man and good friend was murdered as an example to the rest of us, it appears, after we had given our word that we would say no more. Our promises meant something to us but apparently your words meant nothing now do they? You demanded, and Wayne and I acquiesced to your demand for us to remain silent while you destroyed our reputations for the reasons that we all had agreed upon. On our part we have more than kept our part of the agreement, with me having to go so far as to leave the United States. Your own fears however are about to be justified, not because of our doing but because of your actions to further silence us without our having done anything to provoke you. When in Paris we agreed that on the Coast to Coast program, and with the full knowledge of George Noory and Art Bell, our information had to be publicly subverted due to the vast number of people listening, and your estimate, not ours, of over 25 million people would be affected and "take action" if the truth be told. In my last interview with Jeff Rense, and again with his knowledge, we agreed that this interview would, in your terms, be the final "nail in the coffin" for "David Booth" to further destroy my credibility. And again we had no problems with this based upon the assertions you had made to us. Now you decide to change the rules of the game you yourselves have established and in this action seem to believe that we are powerless to respond. Think again! By the time this is posted on the Internet I'll have already been back in the United States for at least a day, so much for your security. To the vast majority of you who are reading this and have no idea what is transpiring I can only say that what you are seeing in the popular media is but the tip of the iceberg of the real war that is going on all around you. Do not expect the next few weeks to be pretty but most of all do not believe anyone who says that either your President or your government is against you, they aren't! President Bush and his family are the only thing standing between you an abyss that you couldn't even imagine in your worst nightmare. David Booth ***************************** -- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 17 22:50:37 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4I5n7VE021874; Mon, 17 May 2004 22:50:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4I5n5bR021856; Mon, 17 May 2004 22:49:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 22:49:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: Dr. Eugene Mallove, connections Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 12:45:36 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <5h3ja0dsaqu8huv23uutpdbhschcpf7asc@4ax.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54499 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This borders on being an insult. Trying to link someone else's shenanigans to an honorable man, in order to tarnish his achievements? > -----Original Message----- > From: Dean Miller [mailto:dtmiller@midiowa.net] > Sent: Tuesday, 2004 May 18 11:40 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Dr. Eugene Mallove, connections > > > I was shocked and saddened by the news of Gene Mallove's death, moreso >...X...< If so, then you should pay respect instead of implications: > Along these lines, Gene had another, implied, connection with other > areas of anomalous investigation. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 18 05:37:47 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4ICbcWc016399; Tue, 18 May 2004 05:37:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4ICbaYr016376; Tue, 18 May 2004 05:37:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 05:37:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004501c43ccc$65986e60$ded0b141@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Neutrino-Charged Ether and Cosmic Rays Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 06:36:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9402d0aba9d41e9945fa709ec3465be1a70350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54500 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If the surplus neutrino charge of the ether, i.e., non-zero charge on neutrinos that exceed the non-zero charge of the antineutrinos ( the other antineutrinos are bound in the neutrons of atoms with mass > 2 AMU), then any neutral atom or molecule with a dipole moment could be given enormous kinetic energy. Hence cosmic rays may not necessarily be charged particles initially. However, they could eventually be stripped/ionized as they traverse space. Getting back to T.T. Brown's flat plate capacitor (electric dipole) accelerated by a net charge (negative?) pushing/repelling the negatively plate.....?? + ____|____ ________ | - With non-zero mass and non-zero charge, the whole universe/ether could be pushing on the negative plate, and if it has enough area and charge density it could reach lightspeed in a very short time. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 18 05:41:05 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4ICf1L1001597; Tue, 18 May 2004 05:41:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4ICexWp001576; Tue, 18 May 2004 05:40:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 05:40:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40AA043C.8090300@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 08:40:28 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT Let's roll References: <40A962DF.3030608@ihug.co.nz> <40A97590.1040100@rtpatlanta.com> <40A988AA.8080305@ihug.co.nz> In-Reply-To: <40A988AA.8080305@ihug.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54501 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John Berry wrote: > Thank you for your reply, as delusional as it is. You're saying that Boeing modified a 767 to carry a missle pod for the purpose of destroying the WTC and you call *me* delusional? Well, take a look at some 767 photos: http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id= and explain to me how your missle pod avoided conflict with the landing gear. Oh, I suppose the pod might not have been present on takeoff but was attached in flight. Sheesh! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 18 07:14:51 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4IEEgWc013683; Tue, 18 May 2004 07:14:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4IEEZdt013636; Tue, 18 May 2004 07:14:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 07:14:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40AA1A43.9000403@ihug.co.nz> Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 02:14:27 +1200 From: John Berry User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT Let's roll References: <40A962DF.3030608@ihug.co.nz> <40A97590.1040100@rtpatlanta.com> <40A988AA.8080305@ihug.co.nz> <40AA043C.8090300@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: <40AA043C.8090300@rtpatlanta.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54502 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > John Berry wrote: > >> Thank you for your reply, as delusional as it is. > > > > You're saying that Boeing modified a 767 Why would Boeing need to be doing the work??? Remember the plane only has to fly once, and crash into a building. Actually all sorts of things are done to aircraft, consider AWACS, or a Boeing currently being altered to carry a large telescope. (going to have a massive portions of the fuselage removed) Also consider that external tanks and weapons are added to aircraft. Adding such a pod does not seem like such an impossible task. (obviously cave dwelling terrorists aren't capable of pulling it off, but not really a big challenge) > to carry a missile pod for the purpose of destroying the WTC and you > call *me* delusional? I agree, the idea is CRAZY. Wasn't my idea. It's on all the videos, it clearly isn't a sprite, an artifact of mpeg compression. I can't even tell you why such a thing would be a good idea. If someone told me about this I wouldn't believe them, but when I see it with my own eyes, with multiple sources of unaltered video from different news sources from different cameras shooting different angles. And that there is both a pod which is large clear and undeniable, a white dot that moves faster than the plane (the missile), an orange fireball just as the white dot hits the building (only many frames later (from memory I'll say approx. 60 frames) is any other orange visible) and from some angles both light from the missiles ignition and smoke from the exhausts are visible. Oh, and while the only video of the first plane is (far) too poor to see the pod an orange fireball (flash) is seen. The question becomes which is more absurd, believing that the plane had a missile pod on it, or believing that somehow all of that is just the most amazing artifact ever, and that it didn't just happen to one frame from one camera but to all frames from all cameras? And that not only do these most impossible 'artifacts' agree but that they paint a picture so clear. Not only the pod and it's shadow but the missile is seen, the light from it's launch, the smoke, the orange colour as it hits the building. BTW, here are the stills of one video: http://www.fourwinds10.com/news/05-government/C-fraud/01-911/2004/letsroll911.org/videostills/index.html or a collage: http://www.thewebfairy.com/911/letsroll911/Web/duhmissilepod1.jpg > > > Well, take a look at some 767 photos: > > http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id= link doesn't work > > > and explain to me how your missile pod avoided conflict with the > landing gear. I found some images, and to me it seemed that the landing gear might not conflict with pod, but if it does, so what? Move the landing gear. wow, that was hard to explain The thing is I agree with you, it's crazy, but that's utterly besides the point, it's on video. > > > Oh, I suppose the pod might not have been present on takeoff but was > attached in flight. As ridiculous as that idea would be, it still makes more sense than ignoring the evidence and calling everything a sprite. Regrettably you've answered my question, most people will ignore it all together, and one out of a few hundred people will give it a look and despite seeing it clearly will explain it away when they know very well it can't really explain it. And what do most people who do see it do? Nothing. (other than maybe tell a friend) Is it any wonder that such conspiracies succeed. All that is needed is for good men to do nothing. > Sheesh! Sheesh! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 18 07:16:22 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4IEGAWc014801; Tue, 18 May 2004 07:16:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4IEG9JR014787; Tue, 18 May 2004 07:16:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 07:16:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20040518141602.86002.qmail@web81101.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 07:16:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: OT Let's roll To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <40AA043C.8090300@rtpatlanta.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54503 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- Terry Blanton wrote: > John Berry wrote: > > Thank you for your reply, as delusional as it is. > You're saying that Boeing modified a 767 to carry a missile pod for the purpose of destroying the WTC and you call *me* delusional? John, Terry is not delusional - at least not here ;-) Why would anyone NOT think that these photos and videos have been doctored in photoshop or some other way? All of them look doctored to me - poorly doctored, in fact. The controversial parts of every frame are much clearer than they should be - look closely. Intense color in a slo-mo frame - you never get that kind of intense coloration, even with an explosion ... without first doctoring the individual pixels. And why would pods show up much clearer than other 'real' features, such as the engines? Yes, there are many, but a hundred instances of doctored pictures/videos do not make any one of them more believable. Ask yourself this: Do any of the wierdos espousing this brain-dead theory have any credentials or credibility? Who are they really trying to expose... or does it look more like some juvenile attempt to gain notoriety, get you 15 minutes of fame by getting yourself invited to kooky talk-shows by inducing some general kind of faked-plot? All of these fools probably got turned down by Springer and Montel first. The problem is that these nuts can't even make a decent fake video, not to mention a 'prima facie' case for a conspiracy or anything else. For instance, why would you need a missile carrying an extra hundred pounds of explosive when you already have a plane carrying 100,000 pounds of fuel (which has more energy content per pound than the explosive)? If you had this fine-tuned conspiracy going, it would be absurd to risk the whole mission to carry something extra like a missile pod that isn't even needed. If you want to claim conspiracy - go out and show how the hijackers were double agents or something like that. Show many different loose ends that don't require doctored photos ...ssh... a missile pod... I have to laugh at how easily some people can be taken in. And that is the real problem, because there are occasional real conspiracies and power-grabs out there, but if government can portray a certain segment of the population as always looking like chicken-little, then they have accomplished the basics of covering up the real dirty-work. Think about it. If the pictures weren't doctored, then it is clear that the original passengers would have had to change planes, so what happened to the original passengers? Oh right... they were taken out and killed separately in another more explicit crime? give me a break... we have recorded cell-phone conversations with some of the passengers up to the time of impact - was that faked too? they couldn't have been forced off one plane and onto another without hundreds of people being in on the conspiracy. The CIA knows as well as anyone that psy-ops and black missions just cannot be kept quiet when you have that many independent people involved... conspiracies only work when there are few people involved - 10-50 highly dedicated old-timers at most. This is in their training. For airplane changes it would take thousands of co-conspirators, down all the way to janitors. There is no rationality here. For any legal case you need a motive... what is the motive? To get us into war in Afghanistan? Ha, ha - it has to be something better than that - which was easily accomplished with no missile pod. We would have gone to war with a single hi-jacked plane that missed its target. If anything, this episode itself seems like the kind of clever double-layered thing that Psy-ops would pull off for the very purposes of discrediting all of their future dirty work - discredit your critics first, by showing that they will believe anything - and then VOILA - the next dirty trick gets easier to pull off, even if you do leave a few real loose ends. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 18 07:42:49 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4IEgiL1003722; Tue, 18 May 2004 07:42:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4IEggrN003690; Tue, 18 May 2004 07:42:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 07:42:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: Neutrino-Charged Ether and Cosmic Rays Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 21:41:29 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <004501c43ccc$65986e60$ded0b141@computer> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <1J1Vt.A.j5.iDiqAB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54504 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have been trying to do something like this for a while, my efforts limited by my current voltage rectification to about 20 kv, hardly enough according to all that I can find from TTB's documents on web. I currently have an unusual effect, though. I have a ceramic floor tile with aluminium foil on one side, a screen mesh (2mm square holes) on the other, and see movement consistent with charging, in accordance with the asymmetric field concept. I wish I had some way of stepping up DC voltage, but this is not in the cards at the moment. This works better with AC, but putting it to the output of a crude tesla arrangement doesn't work. I thought by raising voltage and frequency I could increase the force (think Woodward), but I am a bit frustrated at the moment. I will post fotos sometime tomorrow, perhaps. > -----Original Message----- > From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] > Sent: Tuesday, 2004 May 18 18:37 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Neutrino-Charged Ether and Cosmic Rays > > > If the surplus neutrino charge of the ether, i.e., non-zero > charge on neutrinos that > exceed the non-zero charge of the antineutrinos ( the other > antineutrinos are bound in > the neutrons of atoms with mass > 2 AMU), then any neutral atom > or molecule with a > dipole moment could be given enormous kinetic energy. Hence > cosmic rays may not > necessarily be charged particles initially. > > However, they could eventually be stripped/ionized as they traverse space. > > Getting back to T.T. Brown's flat plate capacitor (electric > dipole) accelerated by a > net charge (negative?) pushing/repelling the negatively plate.....?? > + > ____|____ > ________ > | - > With non-zero mass and non-zero charge, the whole universe/ether > could be pushing on > the negative plate, and if it has enough area and charge density > it could reach > lightspeed in a very short time. :-) > > Regards, > > Frederick > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 18 08:36:39 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4IFaPL1023099; Tue, 18 May 2004 08:36:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4IFaMT2023029; Tue, 18 May 2004 08:36:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 08:36:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40AA2D96.2000602@ihug.co.nz> Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 03:36:54 +1200 From: John Berry User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT Let's roll References: <20040518141602.86002.qmail@web81101.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20040518141602.86002.qmail@web81101.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54505 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >--- Terry Blanton wrote: > > >>John Berry wrote: >> >> > > > >>>Thank you for your reply, as delusional as it is. >>> >>> > > > >>You're saying that Boeing modified a 767 to carry a >> >> >missile pod for the purpose of destroying the WTC and >you call *me* delusional? > > >John, > >Terry is not delusional - at least not here ;-) > >Why would anyone NOT think that these photos and >videos have been doctored in photoshop or some other >way? > Well you see I would hope that before coming to such a conclusion, they would actually look into the source of the videos. They would see if that is a possibility or not. > All of them look doctored to me - poorly >doctored, in fact. > Then please get the originals. You can go here: http://www.loftninjas.org/projects/20010911/ Here is what the site says: All things seen at this site can be accomplished by you, the average person, by simply taking the footage from 911, and slowing it down. -cut- video footage showing the missiles has already been sold at bookstores across the Nation as 911 commemorative DVD's! It was also captured by many home VCR's from people watching the TV at home. It is part of the verifiable, historical, permanent and unerasable record of 911. A legacy if you will. Follow through the site and see for yourself! When you visit this site, make sure you download and save as, then view from your hard drive for the sake of bandwidth. See below for a quick preview; I can tell you that they did also did have a link to an animated gif that was hosted by times magizine. (Now removed) I just went to cnn.com and entered 'second plane video' into the search field, the video though smaller does have a clearly visible pod even on my screen (which is at 1920x1440). http://www.cnn.com/video/us/2001/09/12/2nd.plane.hits.cnn.med.html or try: http://www.msnbc.com/modules/wtc_terror_vg/ Still think it's a fake? > The controversial parts of every >frame are much clearer than they should be - look >closely. Intense color in a slo-mo frame - you never >get that kind of intense coloration, even with an >explosion ... without first doctoring the individual >pixels. And why would pods show up much clearer than >other 'real' features, such as the engines? Yes, there >are many, but a hundred instances of doctored >pictures/videos do not make any one of them more >believable. > Oh, so MSNBC and ABC and CNN are also creating these fakes? > >Ask yourself this: Do any of the wierdos espousing >this brain-dead theory have any credentials or >credibility? > I would expect anyone with credibility to scoff at the whole issue. I didn't believe in all the conspiracy theories, I felt they were sick individuals. But what of the video? > Who are they really trying to expose... >or does it look more like some juvenile attempt to >gain notoriety > Yep, those bastards at ABC, CNN, MSNBC, Camera Planet ect... When will they just learn to grow up? >, get you 15 minutes of fame by getting >yourself invited to kooky talk-shows by inducing some >general kind of faked-plot? All of these fools >probably got turned down by Springer and Montel first. > Yeah, you know your right, those media freaks suck. Or, wait, maybe it was the work of some juveniles to skillfully flawlessly alter all the video then hack into, break into all these different media companies, then they decided not to say anything for a number of years, I bet they broke into peoples houses and changed what was recorded on everyone's videotapes. > >The problem is that these nuts can't even make a >decent fake video > Yes, tell it. Ring CNN tell them they suck at faking video. >, not to mention a 'prima facie' case >for a conspiracy or anything else. For instance, why >would you need a missile carrying an extra hundred >pounds of explosive when you already have a plane >carrying 100,000 pounds of fuel (which has more energy >content per pound than the explosive)? > Agreed, seems unnecessary, now we know the the video of the pod will just disappear, you see we know it's not there because it doesn't really seem necessary, therefore it can't be there. Oh, your right no doubt, lets all just believe real hard and the video will change to show the truth, no pod, it's illogical or at least unnecessary. > If you had this >fine-tuned conspiracy going, it would be absurd to >risk the whole mission to carry something extra like a >missile pod that isn't even needed. If you want to >claim conspiracy - go out and show how the hijackers >were double agents or something like that. Show many >different loose ends that don't require doctored >photos > Yeah, but if no one bothers to slow down the footage for years, and even when it's exposed nothing happens, hmmm. > >...ssh... a missile pod... I have to laugh at how >easily some people can be taken in. > How about the ease with which you convince your self that the video must be faked even though a few seconds of research would have shown it is indeed 100% real. You have even convinced yourself that it's too good, obviously fake! > And that is the >real problem, because there are occasional real >conspiracies and power-grabs out there, but if >government can portray a certain segment of the >population as always looking like chicken-little, then >they have accomplished the basics of covering up the >real dirty-work. > I agree, but the point is that this IS a conspiracy. > >Think about it. If the pictures weren't doctored, then >it is clear that the original passengers would have >had to change planes, so what happened to the original >passengers? Oh right... they were taken out and killed >separately in another more explicit crime? give me a >break... we have recorded cell-phone conversations >with some of the passengers up to the time of impact - > Yep, good job voices can't be faked :http://www.politrix.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=370 Even without faking the voices there are several reasonably obvious ways that could have occurred, but they are too obvious and besides the point and would just take up space. >was that faked too? they couldn't have been forced off >one plane and onto another without hundreds of people >being in on the conspiracy. > >The CIA knows as well as anyone that psy-ops and black >missions just cannot be kept quiet when you have that >many independent people involved... > Actually there have been people that have claimed to have been in on it. But they are obviously nuts, who would believe their statements? > conspiracies only >work when there are few people involved - 10-50 highly >dedicated old-timers at most. This is in their >training. For airplane changes it would take thousands >of co-conspirators, down all the way to janitors. > I disagree that it would take that number, however I think that it might be such a number. >There is no rationality here. For any legal case you >need a motive... > Oh, so video proven not to be tampered with of someone committing a crime isn't enough, you must know why? I could do anything, kill someone and as long as I have no motive everything fine? Besides who says they don't have a motive, did America go to war with any countries that have oil recently? (that would have been unlikely without such an event) Have new laws giving draconian power to CIA, FBI, NSA, and created the department of homeland security and the 'Patriot' Act? Or maybe it was Mossad, figuring it would help them out to have america pissed at Arabs? But I'm afraid this is all besides the point, clearly the pod and missiles are real. > what is the motive? To get us into >war in Afghanistan? Ha, ha - it has to be something >better than that - which was easily accomplished with >no missile pod. We would have gone to war with a >single hi-jacked plane that missed its target. > >If anything, this episode itself seems like the kind >of clever double-layered thing that Psy-ops would pull >off for the very purposes of discrediting all of their >future dirty work - discredit your critics first, by >showing that they will believe anything - and then >VOILA - the next dirty trick gets easier to pull off, >even if you do leave a few real loose ends. > >Jones > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 18 09:07:25 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4IG6uWc018115; Tue, 18 May 2004 09:06:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4IG6qEX018012; Tue, 18 May 2004 09:06:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 09:06:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40AA3483.5070808@ihug.co.nz> Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 04:06:27 +1200 From: John Berry User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT Let's roll References: <20040518141602.86002.qmail@web81101.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20040518141602.86002.qmail@web81101.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54506 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.amics21.com/911/flight175/ And see that site for an enhanced image, and a review. From a post I just found: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=125&topic_id=7924#7993 Watcher Phil, It's an uphill struggle to get people to see things they don't want to see. The "official story" has no difficulty persuading otherwise rational people, but come up with some questions and they suddenly can't see or hear. Go to http//www.amics21.com/911/flight175 These photos were analysed by the University of Mataró here in Barcelona. They used super computers (whatever that means) normally used to detect invisible objects such as tumours. The report is conclusive. (see the site) Also, the Boeing 767-323 (flight 175) is not. According to the technical specifications (check it out on the site above) this flight was a 200 series. This, according to our source, is part of the disinformation that is causing us problems. See the Aviation Safety Network, Accident Description database: http://aviation-safety.net/database/2001/010911-1.htm and the FAA registry http://162.58.35.241/acdatabase/NNumSQL.asp?NNumbertxt=612UA I guess the confusion comes in because a 767-222 left Logan airport, and a 767-300 hit the Towers, as the 300 series carries a much greater payload. Yes they were switched, but not just that. You don't just stick all those "pods" on with chewing gum. Military planes have "hard points" for attaching all the extra missiles, fuel tanks etc. So this plane was adapted. Which would take a lot longer than one morning. Who would have the time to do all that I wonder? Jones Beene wrote: >--- Terry Blanton wrote: > > >>John Berry wrote: >> >> > > > >>>Thank you for your reply, as delusional as it is. >>> >>> > > > >>You're saying that Boeing modified a 767 to carry a >> >> >missile pod for the purpose of destroying the WTC and >you call *me* delusional? > > >John, > >Terry is not delusional - at least not here ;-) > >Why would anyone NOT think that these photos and >videos have been doctored in photoshop or some other >way? All of them look doctored to me - poorly >doctored, in fact. The controversial parts of every >frame are much clearer than they should be - look >closely. Intense color in a slo-mo frame - you never >get that kind of intense coloration, even with an >explosion ... without first doctoring the individual >pixels. And why would pods show up much clearer than >other 'real' features, such as the engines? Yes, there >are many, but a hundred instances of doctored >pictures/videos do not make any one of them more >believable. > >Ask yourself this: Do any of the wierdos espousing >this brain-dead theory have any credentials or >credibility? Who are they really trying to expose... >or does it look more like some juvenile attempt to >gain notoriety, get you 15 minutes of fame by getting >yourself invited to kooky talk-shows by inducing some >general kind of faked-plot? All of these fools >probably got turned down by Springer and Montel first. > >The problem is that these nuts can't even make a >decent fake video, not to mention a 'prima facie' case >for a conspiracy or anything else. For instance, why >would you need a missile carrying an extra hundred >pounds of explosive when you already have a plane >carrying 100,000 pounds of fuel (which has more energy >content per pound than the explosive)? If you had this >fine-tuned conspiracy going, it would be absurd to >risk the whole mission to carry something extra like a >missile pod that isn't even needed. If you want to >claim conspiracy - go out and show how the hijackers >were double agents or something like that. Show many >different loose ends that don't require doctored >photos > >...ssh... a missile pod... I have to laugh at how >easily some people can be taken in. And that is the >real problem, because there are occasional real >conspiracies and power-grabs out there, but if >government can portray a certain segment of the >population as always looking like chicken-little, then >they have accomplished the basics of covering up the >real dirty-work. > >Think about it. If the pictures weren't doctored, then >it is clear that the original passengers would have >had to change planes, so what happened to the original >passengers? Oh right... they were taken out and killed >separately in another more explicit crime? give me a >break... we have recorded cell-phone conversations >with some of the passengers up to the time of impact - >was that faked too? they couldn't have been forced off >one plane and onto another without hundreds of people >being in on the conspiracy. > >The CIA knows as well as anyone that psy-ops and black >missions just cannot be kept quiet when you have that >many independent people involved... conspiracies only >work when there are few people involved - 10-50 highly >dedicated old-timers at most. This is in their >training. For airplane changes it would take thousands >of co-conspirators, down all the way to janitors. >There is no rationality here. For any legal case you >need a motive... what is the motive? To get us into >war in Afghanistan? Ha, ha - it has to be something >better than that - which was easily accomplished with >no missile pod. We would have gone to war with a >single hi-jacked plane that missed its target. > >If anything, this episode itself seems like the kind >of clever double-layered thing that Psy-ops would pull >off for the very purposes of discrediting all of their >future dirty work - discredit your critics first, by >showing that they will believe anything - and then >VOILA - the next dirty trick gets easier to pull off, >even if you do leave a few real loose ends. > >Jones > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 18 09:24:38 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4IGOXL1005240; Tue, 18 May 2004 09:24:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4IGOTpB005220; Tue, 18 May 2004 09:24:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 09:24:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: "Johnson, Steven" To: "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" Cc: "Johnson, Steven" Subject: RE: OT Let's roll Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 11:25:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-PMX-Version: 4.6.0.97784, Antispam-Core: 4.6.0.97340, Antispam-Data: 2004.5.17.101026 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54507 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: John Berry [mailto:antigrav@ihug.co.nz] > Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 10:37 AM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: OT Let's roll ... > But I'm afraid this is all besides the point, clearly the pod and > missiles are real. > I purchased TIVO several months before 9/11. This gave me the opportunity to record several videos captured when the second jet hit the tower and shown on CNN. There was a particularly graphic footage taken by an individual from the ground approximately a block or two away from tower. My TIVO box gave me the opportunity to view that footage numerous times over the subsequent months. You can hear the jet approaching in the sound track. Suddenly the jet appears from the side of the screen in full living detailed color. You have a clear detailed shot of the undercarriage of the jet before and as it slices through the side of the tower. One couldn't have gotten a more detailed recording of the horrible event than what this footage showed. There was no "pod" visible. There was no "missile" seen shooting from a "pod" or from the undercarriage of the jet. Had this video shown visual evidence of a "pod" or "missile" being launched it would have been impossible to suppress. The whole world would have known about this "conspiracy" within seconds after it had been broadcast on CNN countless times in the hours after the event. It is preferable to choose one's "conspiracies" wisely. Steven Vincent Johnson www.Orionworks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 18 09:34:00 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4IGXtL1008025; Tue, 18 May 2004 09:33:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4IGXtWW007997; Tue, 18 May 2004 09:33:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 09:33:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40AA3B9B.9030906@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 12:36:43 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT Let's roll References: <40A962DF.3030608@ihug.co.nz> In-Reply-To: <40A962DF.3030608@ihug.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54508 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > Sorry to post something so off topic, > But I'd just like to know what the readers make of this. (It is after > all an important subject) > > For some time now this website: http://www.letsroll911.org/ has had > significant and solid proof that what happened on the 11th of September > 2001 when plans flew into the World Trade Center was not what it seemed. > > The videos at that site show the same footage of the planes hitting the > WTC that we have all seen, just they slow it down. > (multiple videos from different new sources, different angles) > > I do not wish to convince the readers of this list of anything, I simply > want to know what people reactions are when faced with an uneasy truth. > > Will you argue it is a trick of the light, or a hoax? > Summarily dismiss without looking because it can't possibly be true? There is a major problem with this, already pointed out by Terry and Jones: It makes no sense. Regardless of who was flying the planes, regardless of what the administration knew or didn't know, regardless of all other considerations -- WHY would the perpetrators want to bolt a missile launcher onto the plane? Air-to-air missiles would not bring down the WTC; one or even several such missiles are totally irrelevant compared to the impact of one 767. Stick a nuclear warhead on the alleged missile and the story changes -- but that wasn't done. Missiles are also not needed to explain why the buildings collapsed -- as we all know by now, the designers estimated that the building could stand an impact by a smaller aircraft (727, I think?) but a fully-loaded 767 was outside the design spec. Steel frame melted, building came down, nothing more is needed for an explanation. In a hot fire wood lasts longer than steel because it doesn't melt and must instead burn through from the outside, but nobody builds skyscrapers out of wood and so there wasn't much time to get out. SO with regard to the videos, we are left with two choices: (1) Explain why the bombers, who were clearly intelligent and highly competent (tho evil) people, did this very strange, expensive, probably risky thing, and had the planes specially and unnecessarily modified, or (2) Accept that video artifacts and/or some other unexpected effects probably account for the images. Neither option is ideal, but option (2) seems to me to be a lot easier to swallow than option (1). I looked at the footage, and all I can say for sure is that there's a flash just before impact and there's a shadow under the plane. With a big dose of imagination I can turn that into a missile, or I can turn it into a video artifact, or if I really work hard to suspend my disbelief I can turn it into a shell fired from a flying saucer. But in all cases, in this and all suggested conspiracies, I ask myself WHO BENEFITS? It's easy to find beneficiaries for flying a pair of 767's into the WTC. Using that test, I'm willing to consider all sorts of "uncomfortable" conclusions, as John put it, about who might have been behind it or who might have covered up foreknowledge of it. BUT It's NOT so easy to find anyone who benefits from making the plan far more complicated than it needed to be by using a custom modified 767, instead of just stealing a "stock" plane off the runway, as the hijackers apparently did. This plan was hard enough to pull off using "off the shelf" components -- why would anyone, even the hair-loving CIA, have wanted to add special planes to the mix? What'd they do, anyway -- steal the unmodified 767, stash it in a swamp somewhere, and then fly the modified one into the building? Or steal it, bolt on the missile launcher "real quick" at a secret airbase, and then take off again and fly it into the building? Or did they gimmick the records and the stories about the hijacked planes in order to fake all the hijackings (which never really happened in this scenario), and instead fly the special planes out of a secret airbase hidden somewhere in Area 51? Sorry, it's just too hard to swallow, and the pictures are just not convincing enough. Occam says video artifacts are the preferred solution. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 18 09:51:33 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4IGpNL1016480; Tue, 18 May 2004 09:51:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4IGpLx0016470; Tue, 18 May 2004 09:51:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 09:51:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40AA3F31.3020601@ihug.co.nz> Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 04:52:01 +1200 From: John Berry User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT Let's roll References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54509 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Wow, that's amazing. So if I am to believe you, you have the only video that shows the underside of the plane that doesn't show the pod! Every other video from any source including CNN shows the pod, and yet yours doesn't? Question 1: were you looking for a pod? Question 2: Was it drastically slowed down? Question 3: Are you totally sure the setting on your TV wasn't set too dark? If you do still have it on your TIVO then I suggest you replay it, in slow motion, and change the brightness and contrast. http://www.cnn.com/video/us/2001/09/12/2nd.plane.hits.cnn.med.html Given that CNN (and every other source that has the relevant videos) show the pod, may I ask you if you are still 100% sure it doesn't show the Pod? If so maybe you can offer a suggestion as to how this one video (that only you seem to posses) shows something different to all the other videos? I am disappointed by the results, seems your all accommodating sheepile, willing to BLINDLY follow no matter the evidence. I thought that this list with lots of intelligent people who are used to holding views which are not conventional would be better at accepting such evidence. It seems to me that for many it would practically have to be on the nightly news to be accepted. Johnson, Steven wrote: >>From: John Berry [mailto:antigrav@ihug.co.nz] >>Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 10:37 AM >>To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >>Subject: Re: OT Let's roll >> >> > >... > > > >>But I'm afraid this is all besides the point, clearly the pod and >>missiles are real. >> >> >> > >I purchased TIVO several months before 9/11. This gave me the opportunity to >record several videos captured when the second jet hit the tower and shown >on CNN. There was a particularly graphic footage taken by an individual from >the ground approximately a block or two away from tower. My TIVO box gave me >the opportunity to view that footage numerous times over the subsequent >months. > >You can hear the jet approaching in the sound track. Suddenly the jet >appears from the side of the screen in full living detailed color. You have >a clear detailed shot of the undercarriage of the jet before and as it >slices through the side of the tower. > >One couldn't have gotten a more detailed recording of the horrible event >than what this footage showed. > >There was no "pod" visible. There was no "missile" seen shooting from a >"pod" or from the undercarriage of the jet. > >Had this video shown visual evidence of a "pod" or "missile" being launched >it would have been impossible to suppress. The whole world would have known >about this "conspiracy" within seconds after it had been broadcast on CNN >countless times in the hours after the event. > >It is preferable to choose one's "conspiracies" wisely. > >Steven Vincent Johnson >www.Orionworks.com > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 18 10:00:36 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4IH0QL1019214; Tue, 18 May 2004 10:00:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4IH0PWr019198; Tue, 18 May 2004 10:00:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 10:00:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40AA41CD.8050202@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 13:03:09 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT Let's roll References: <20040518141602.86002.qmail@web81101.mail.yahoo.com> <40AA3483.5070808@ihug.co.nz> In-Reply-To: <40AA3483.5070808@ihug.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54510 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > http://www.amics21.com/911/flight175/ > And see that site for an enhanced image, and a review. > > From a post I just found: > http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=125&topic_id=7924#7993 > > > Watcher Phil, > It's an uphill struggle to get people to see things they don't want to > see. The "official story" has no difficulty persuading otherwise > rational people, but come up with some questions and they suddenly can't > see or hear. > > Go to > > http//www.amics21.com/911/flight175 > > These photos were analysed by the University of Mataró here in > Barcelona. They used super computers (whatever that means) normally used > to detect invisible objects such as tumours. The report is conclusive. No it isn't. I looked at what they've posted. The edge detection algorithms they use originated in the effort to teach robots to see. In most cases, such algorithms don't add anything your eye can't already see, but they produce a form which later processing software can more easily make use of. (They also make it feasible for a computer to do a pre-sort on lots of images when the human analysts are totally overwhelmed by the volume coming in from the spy satellites.) And those algorithms also do a fabulous job of enhancing artifacts and making them look "more real". The conclusion to be drawn looking at the digital analysis given here is that the original image looked just like it appears to look. Anything more is going beyond what they actually showed. So there's something funny looking about the photo of the plane -- and the _claim_ is that it must be a missile launcher. The hocus pocus with edge detection algorithms doesn't add anything to that. And strangely, according to the edge detectors in my eye (which are at least as good as these computer algorithms in most cases), the funny looking thing in this picture looks quite different from the odd shadow in the video images on the LetsRoll site. If it's really a missile launcher it should look the same in all photos, right? I don't find the logical divide between the shadows under the plane and the missile launcher any easier to cross as a result of seeing this analysis. > (see the site) > > Also, the Boeing 767-323 (flight 175) is not. According to the technical > specifications (check it out on the site above) this flight was a 200 > series. This, according to our source, is part of the disinformation > that is causing us problems. See the Aviation Safety Network, Accident > Description database: > http://aviation-safety.net/database/2001/010911-1.htm > > and the FAA registry > http://162.58.35.241/acdatabase/NNumSQL.asp?NNumbertxt=612UA > > I guess the confusion comes in because a 767-222 left Logan airport, and > a 767-300 hit the Towers, as the 300 series carries a much greater payload > > Yes they were switched, Well, if this could actually be proved it would bring down the whole house of cards, wouldn't it? I didn't see such proof on the sites you referred to. So, the question comes down to, what proof is there that the planes didn't match? Post that and we're done. Can you? [EVEN MORE OFF TOPIC: Did you know that there were -- yes, there really were -- TWO gunmen at Kennedy's assassination? The BBN analysis of the tape of the incident proved it, as well as things are ever proved in conspiracy cases. But the result came out years and years after the event, long after the trail had gone cold, and there was not much anyone could do with the information. And so there the matter has rested. No I didn't see the movie, which was neither accurate nor convincing. However I did work at BBN.] Anyhow I think my system's back up, gotta get back to reality here... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 18 10:13:25 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4IHDHL1022697; Tue, 18 May 2004 10:13:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4IHDGs3022675; Tue, 18 May 2004 10:13:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 10:13:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: OT Let's roll Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 13:40:32 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <40AA3483.5070808@ihug.co.nz> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54511 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi John. It's interesting to contrast your post with the recent posting by Dean Miller concerning his conspiracy theory. Both remind me of an old Saturday Night Live sketch. Ronald Reagan is wheeled out before the press and offers up some vague mumbled Peggy Noonan inspired pablum about "evil empire" and "morning in America" while Nancy casts her astrology charts. Next scene, he's back at the White House on another late night, eyes blazing with intensity, on a conference call coordinating the global economy and barking orders to the other G8 leaders, all while waiting for the Tokyo stock exchange to open. I've noticed that many foreigners view our government, and the CIA in particular, as this monolithic Godlike being that can implement far reaching conspiracies 23 steps ahead of every other sentient being on the planet. I'm flattered you think so much of us, but honestly, can you look at any of our recent foreign interventions and explain how this stuff could be of any great benefit to US interests? It looks like a long trail of hubristic arrogant follies; of some limited political benefit and opportunity for theft but not much beyond that. As for right wing conspiracists; hey guys, this is the government we're talking about here? Remember? It's that entity you feel is incompetent to run something as simple as a school or post office. And this same entity is plotting exotic generation spanning multinational conspiracies??? Or conversely, that this long chain of fumbling mistakes is actually a carefully wrought plan to protect us? Please. One thing I will say about George Bush; he promised us a leadership style modeled on corporate governance. On this one promise, he delivered in spades. I don't know what the heartland thinks that means, but as a former denizen of Wall St. I can tell you it's exactly what we've got now. Really John, if you want to understand how 911 happened, pick up a copy of Richard Clarks book. As someone who was at the center of counter-terrorism for the past decade or so, he pretty much lays it out for you. Incompentence and opportunism are often confused for conspiracy by the ignorant. K. -----Original Message----- From: John Berry [mailto:antigrav@ihug.co.nz] Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 12:06 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT Let's roll http://www.amics21.com/911/flight175/ And see that site for an enhanced image, and a review. From a post I just found: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=125&topic_id=7924#7993 Watcher Phil, It's an uphill struggle to get people to see things they don't want to see. The "official story" has no difficulty persuading otherwise rational people, but come up with some questions and they suddenly can't see or hear. Go to http//www.amics21.com/911/flight175 These photos were analysed by the University of Mataró here in Barcelona. They used super computers (whatever that means) normally used to detect invisible objects such as tumours. The report is conclusive. (see the site) Also, the Boeing 767-323 (flight 175) is not. According to the technical specifications (check it out on the site above) this flight was a 200 series. This, according to our source, is part of the disinformation that is causing us problems. See the Aviation Safety Network, Accident Description database: http://aviation-safety.net/database/2001/010911-1.htm and the FAA registry http://162.58.35.241/acdatabase/NNumSQL.asp?NNumbertxt=612UA I guess the confusion comes in because a 767-222 left Logan airport, and a 767-300 hit the Towers, as the 300 series carries a much greater payload. Yes they were switched, but not just that. You don't just stick all those "pods" on with chewing gum. Military planes have "hard points" for attaching all the extra missiles, fuel tanks etc. So this plane was adapted. Which would take a lot longer than one morning. Who would have the time to do all that I wonder? Jones Beene wrote: >--- Terry Blanton wrote: > > >>John Berry wrote: >> >> > > > >>>Thank you for your reply, as delusional as it is. >>> >>> > > > >>You're saying that Boeing modified a 767 to carry a >> >> >missile pod for the purpose of destroying the WTC and >you call *me* delusional? > > >John, > >Terry is not delusional - at least not here ;-) > >Why would anyone NOT think that these photos and >videos have been doctored in photoshop or some other >way? All of them look doctored to me - poorly >doctored, in fact. The controversial parts of every >frame are much clearer than they should be - look >closely. Intense color in a slo-mo frame - you never >get that kind of intense coloration, even with an >explosion ... without first doctoring the individual >pixels. And why would pods show up much clearer than >other 'real' features, such as the engines? Yes, there >are many, but a hundred instances of doctored >pictures/videos do not make any one of them more >believable. > >Ask yourself this: Do any of the wierdos espousing >this brain-dead theory have any credentials or >credibility? Who are they really trying to expose... >or does it look more like some juvenile attempt to >gain notoriety, get you 15 minutes of fame by getting >yourself invited to kooky talk-shows by inducing some >general kind of faked-plot? All of these fools >probably got turned down by Springer and Montel first. > >The problem is that these nuts can't even make a >decent fake video, not to mention a 'prima facie' case >for a conspiracy or anything else. For instance, why >would you need a missile carrying an extra hundred >pounds of explosive when you already have a plane >carrying 100,000 pounds of fuel (which has more energy >content per pound than the explosive)? If you had this >fine-tuned conspiracy going, it would be absurd to >risk the whole mission to carry something extra like a >missile pod that isn't even needed. If you want to >claim conspiracy - go out and show how the hijackers >were double agents or something like that. Show many >different loose ends that don't require doctored >photos > >...ssh... a missile pod... I have to laugh at how >easily some people can be taken in. And that is the >real problem, because there are occasional real >conspiracies and power-grabs out there, but if >government can portray a certain segment of the >population as always looking like chicken-little, then >they have accomplished the basics of covering up the >real dirty-work. > >Think about it. If the pictures weren't doctored, then >it is clear that the original passengers would have >had to change planes, so what happened to the original >passengers? Oh right... they were taken out and killed >separately in another more explicit crime? give me a >break... we have recorded cell-phone conversations >with some of the passengers up to the time of impact - >was that faked too? they couldn't have been forced off >one plane and onto another without hundreds of people >being in on the conspiracy. > >The CIA knows as well as anyone that psy-ops and black >missions just cannot be kept quiet when you have that >many independent people involved... conspiracies only >work when there are few people involved - 10-50 highly >dedicated old-timers at most. This is in their >training. For airplane changes it would take thousands >of co-conspirators, down all the way to janitors. >There is no rationality here. For any legal case you >need a motive... what is the motive? To get us into >war in Afghanistan? Ha, ha - it has to be something >better than that - which was easily accomplished with >no missile pod. We would have gone to war with a >single hi-jacked plane that missed its target. > >If anything, this episode itself seems like the kind >of clever double-layered thing that Psy-ops would pull >off for the very purposes of discrediting all of their >future dirty work - discredit your critics first, by >showing that they will believe anything - and then >VOILA - the next dirty trick gets easier to pull off, >even if you do leave a few real loose ends. > >Jones > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 18 10:20:53 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4IHKlWc013158; Tue, 18 May 2004 10:20:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4IHKiV7013136; Tue, 18 May 2004 10:20:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 10:20:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: "Johnson, Steven" To: "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" Cc: "Johnson, Steven" Subject: RE: OT Let's roll Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 12:20:27 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-PMX-Version: 4.6.0.97784, Antispam-Core: 4.6.0.97340, Antispam-Data: 2004.5.17.101026 Resent-Message-ID: <31Yz3.A.IND.sXkqAB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54512 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: John Berry [mailto:antigrav@ihug.co.nz] > Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 11:52 AM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: OT Let's roll > ... > > I am disappointed by the results, seems your all accommodating sheepile, > willing to BLINDLY follow no matter the evidence. > I thought that this list with lots of intelligent people who > are used to holding views which are not conventional would be better at > accepting such evidence. I suspect there are many within this vortex membership that have discovered several conspiracies worth mulling over. So have I. When it doubt go talk to actual eye witnesses. Regarding the 9/11 events have any of them recalled seeing a "pod" or "missile"? Authentic conspiracies tend to display a much lower profile and would not reveal themselves so blatently on video. To function properly they need to remain a secret. Again, I can only suggest that it is preferable to choose one's conspiracies wisely. Steven Vincent Johnson www.Orionworks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 18 10:23:36 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4IHNOWc014067; Tue, 18 May 2004 10:23:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4IHNMPS014044; Tue, 18 May 2004 10:23:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 10:23:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20040518172314.74944.qmail@web81109.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 10:23:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: OT Let's roll To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <40AA2D96.2000602@ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54513 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: “Well you see I would hope that before coming to such a conclusion, they would actually look into the source of the videos.” Yes. I would too. “They would see if that is a possibility or not.” Yes. So far so good. > All of them look doctored to me – poorly doctored, in fact. “Then please get the originals. Yes. Been there done that. “Still think it's a fake?” Yes. I’m certain it is absolutely faked. John, your not the first gullible guy to get suckered-in by our slimy news media. “Oh, so MSNBC and ABC and CNN are also creating these fakes?” Yup. They are involved as stooges, yes, and they probably had or should have had, strong suspicions that the videos they were buying (AND THEY WERE ALL BOUGHT) were fakes. Of course, only the person/s who sold them the videos did the actual alteration. IOW the networks couldn't get good footage, bought fakes, got scammed, or went along with the duplicity, and don’t want to admit otherwise after the fact. “But what of the video?” Fake !!! to paraphrase a number of sources: The CNN broadcast footage i.e., the famous shot of United Airlines 175 striking the South Tower seen from the south is said to have been bought from an amateur shooting from the Battery for half a million – with few questions asked - but among the many problems that showed up later: In the audio sequence we hear the sound of the jet plane arriving, the explosions and then people reacting with horror at the spectacular fireball. However, there is no impact sound. How could that be? All of the other purchased footage that the TV networks aired of planes striking the WTC disaster is also silent - no audio of the impacts of either Flight 11 or Flight 175 striking the World Trade Center – does that make sense. Not if you ask the eyewitnesses who didn’t take the footage. When reviewing the videotape we can see that plane actually enters the South Tower without any part of a wing or fuselage breaking off on impact – exactly as an con-artist camera-man would have to do it, in the interest of time, in order for a quick and dirty $500,000 sale to CNN or the others. He wouldn’t have the time to make a good fake only convincing enough for a short-term sale. Another tip-off that the video footage of UA 175 striking the South Tower is faked is that it is silver. Unfortunately, United Airlines has a grey and dark-blue color scheme. Strangely, UA 175 in the video (the one CNN got scammed on) is also NOT affected by shadows or the Sun. For example, sometime during the day of 9/11/01 CNN broadcast more “amateur” footage of UA we see the jet arriving in silhouette. It remains in shadow until it disappears into the South Tower. Shooting video of jet planes which are not affected by sunlight and which do not leave any sound (or debris) behind when colliding with immense steel towers might be a challenge for some amateurs… unless of course the footage was altered immediately before CNN bought it. Perhaps this footage was simply a miraculous fluke, you say? Curiously, almost all of the other footage that the TV networks broadcast of UA 175 striking the South Tower features an interesting zoom-out just as the action gets most interesting. I guess we are to believe that New York City was chock full of amateur video-camers that day who turned out to be highly skilled at making zooms midway through sensational subject matter. CNN’s infamous view from the south shows the camera is examining the WTC in relative close-up as the North Tower burns. Suddenly, the amateur shooting it expertly zooms out. A second later UA 175 arrives. Other footage aired by the TV networks from a vantage point east of the WTC show the North Tower close. Then the camera zooms-out, briefly waits and UA 175 arrives... it had to be either planned by netowrks or faked by the lucky (and rich) cameraman. Pavel Hlava, the lucky Czech immigrant construction worker who claims to have managed to shoot both the North and South towers getting hit (between taking the Brooklyn Battery tunnel across lower Manhattan) has his own agent now, Walter Karling, who will not give out his phone number and will not allow him to speak publicly. Why did all of these amateur videographers risk losing their subject zoom-out just as UA 175 arrives? Didn’t they feel that the subject matter was already of intense interest to them? Surely this scene didn't need dramatic embellishment added. Why didn't the networks get any of their won footage? Well, they did get some but it was very uniteresting by comparison to the purchased amateur video. The lessons learned from 9/11 coverage are unbelievable. Not that there was a secret 'shadow-government' involvement - but worse - that our so-called “free-press are a bunch of low-life scum bags who will buy altered video for the quick buck – videos that reveals that jets can fly into steel buildings silently and as efficiently as a hand enters a glove and the Sun also doesn't shine for 5 seconds - on a jet that has been miraculously stripped of its original paint - and a so-called missile pod added. The TV networks duped us and screened purchased video sequences that were fabrications. Plain and simple. Tragic events of international consequence are no longer being covered by the news media today. They are being manufactured by third parties with needed deceptions taken care of by free-agent middlement to insulate the buyer - but with the tacit assistance of the national news media. Disgusting. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 18 10:25:29 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4IHPIWc015056; Tue, 18 May 2004 10:25:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4IHPFU3015028; Tue, 18 May 2004 10:25:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 10:25:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40AA46F3.5020700@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 13:25:07 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT Let's roll References: <40A962DF.3030608@ihug.co.nz> <40AA3B9B.9030906@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <40AA3B9B.9030906@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54514 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > Steel frame melted, building came down, nothing more is needed for an > explanation. I attended two symposiums on the cause of the collapse of the towers. You are absolutely right, the steel melted. The steel could have survived except for one thing. The fire insulation on the structural steel was literally blown off by the impact of the aircraft. BTW, the video is still on the CNN site: http://www.cnn.com/video/us/2001/09/12/2nd.plane.hits.cnn.med.html No pod. However, as the tilts into its port turn, the starboard wingtip shadow crosses the fuselage leaving a bright/shadow/bright area. It is this light shift which has caused the artifact, IMO. This is shown in the site referenced by Mr. Berry: http://www.amics21.com/911/flight175 left column, "click on photos through various filters". From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 18 10:41:26 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4IHfJL1031143; Tue, 18 May 2004 10:41:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4IHfCQI031061; Tue, 18 May 2004 10:41:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 10:41:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40AA4AE9.4030103@ihug.co.nz> Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 05:42:01 +1200 From: John Berry User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT Let's roll References: <40A962DF.3030608@ihug.co.nz> <40AA3B9B.9030906@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <40AA3B9B.9030906@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54515 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > John Berry wrote: > >> Sorry to post something so off topic, >> But I'd just like to know what the readers make of this. (It is after >> all an important subject) >> >> For some time now this website: http://www.letsroll911.org/ has had >> significant and solid proof that what happened on the 11th of >> September 2001 when plans flew into the World Trade Center was not >> what it seemed. >> >> The videos at that site show the same footage of the planes hitting >> the WTC that we have all seen, just they slow it down. >> (multiple videos from different new sources, different angles) >> >> I do not wish to convince the readers of this list of anything, I >> simply want to know what people reactions are when faced with an >> uneasy truth. >> >> Will you argue it is a trick of the light, or a hoax? >> Summarily dismiss without looking because it can't possibly be true? > > > There is a major problem with this, already pointed out by Terry and > Jones: It makes no sense. > > Regardless of who was flying the planes, regardless of what the > administration knew or didn't know, regardless of all other > considerations -- WHY would the perpetrators want to bolt a missile > launcher onto the plane? I agree, it is an interesting question, it's unnecessary. Now go check the videos, have the pods disappeared in a sudden 'poof' due to logical superiority? No? How odd, surely if it makes little or no sense they shouldn't be there, but they are. That's all that matters, things don't stop existing because you don't fully understand it. Well there are some possible reasons (though I admit none really satisfying). 1. To destroy the airplane at it wasn't the 767 is was meant to be. 2. To kill as many people on the floors it crashed into, cut off emergency routs 3. To allow better penetration of the plane by softening up the target 4. To bring down the WTC. (explosives used are more effective that plane fuel) 5. To make a bigger more effective explosion for the TV cameras. > Air-to-air missiles would not bring down the WTC; one or even > several such missiles are totally irrelevant compared to the impact of > one 767. Stick a nuclear warhead on the alleged missile and the story > changes -- but that wasn't done. Well I guess they didn't try and wipe out the whole of NYC, plus there would be questions about if terrorists could have gotten a nuke let alone get it on a plane. > > > Missiles are also not needed to explain why the buildings collapsed -- > as we all know by now, the designers estimated that the building could > stand an impact by a smaller aircraft (727, I think?) but a > fully-loaded 767 was outside the design spec. Steel frame melted, > building came down, nothing more is needed for an explanation. In a > hot fire wood lasts longer than steel because it doesn't melt and must > instead burn through from the outside, but nobody builds skyscrapers > out of wood and so there wasn't much time to get out. > > SO with regard to the videos, we are left with two choices: > > (1) Explain why the bombers, who were clearly intelligent and highly > competent (tho evil) people, did this very strange, expensive, > probably risky thing, and had the planes specially and unnecessarily > modified, or > > (2) Accept that video artifacts and/or some other unexpected effects > probably account for the images. But it is clearly not an artifact. All the videos (that show the underside) show the same things despite being very different, and shooting from very different distances and angles. see: http://www.amics21.com/911/flight175/ > > > > Neither option is ideal, but option (2) seems to me to be a lot easier > to swallow than option (1). Yes, easier more comfortable and dishonest. You don't believe 2, you are just unwilling to accept 1 therefore decide to accept 2 anyway. Remember, with 1 you must come to the conclusion that it was most probably an inside job, that some branch of the US government decided that attacking the it's own people and buildings is a good idea. Do you really think their version of logic would seem identifiable too you or me? > > > I looked at the footage, and all I can say for sure is that there's a > flash just before impact There is a video of the first plane too, the same flash occurs > and there's a shadow under the plane. With a big dose of imagination > I can turn that into a missile You see the pod, and it's shadow, do you see the moving white object? You see an orange flash. And if you bother to look you will see this occurs from all the angles. Now, lets say it's not a missile pod, just consider the fact that there is a pod there, what the hell would a pod be doing there? Boeing have said they don't know what it is. > , or I can turn it into a video artifact Can you really look at it with all the different angles and still see it as an artifact? http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=125&topic_id=7924#7993 > , or if I really work hard to suspend my disbelief I can turn it into > a shell fired from a flying saucer. > > But in all cases, in this and all suggested conspiracies, I ask myself > WHO BENEFITS? I can think of who benefits as stated in other posts. But all of that is besides the point, your going beyond the scope. My point is that there is a pod there, and I do not believe you can really feel right about calling it an artifact. (if you have looked at the different images) Or am I wrong, do you feel totally intellectually honest in stating it is an artifact? > > > It's easy to find beneficiaries for flying a pair of 767's into the > WTC. Using that test, I'm willing to consider all sorts of > "uncomfortable" conclusions, as John put it, about who might have been > behind it or who might have covered up foreknowledge of it. > > BUT It's NOT so easy to find anyone who benefits from making the plan > far more complicated than it needed to be by using a custom modified > 767, instead of just stealing a "stock" plane off the runway, as the > hijackers apparently did. agreed, so what? > This plan was hard enough to pull off using "off the shelf" components > -- why would anyone, even the hair-loving CIA, have wanted to add > special planes to the mix? What'd they do, anyway -- steal the > unmodified 767, stash it in a swamp somewhere, and then fly the > modified one into the building? Or steal it, bolt on the missile > launcher "real quick" at a secret airbase, and then take off again and > fly it into the building? Or did they gimmick the records and the > stories about the hijacked planes in order to fake all the hijackings > (which never really happened in this scenario), and instead fly the > special planes out of a secret airbase hidden somewhere in Area 51? > > Sorry, it's just too hard to swallow, and the pictures are just not > convincing enough. Occam says video artifacts are the preferred > solution. Oh, I give up, now you say Occams Razors is on your side, of course it's less likely that some black intelligence agency bungled things by overcomplicating things than every video camera showing the underside from very different angles show 3 consistent 'illusions' of the pod & shadow, the missile and then the orange ball (not counting the just visible smoke and the significant lightening as the missile launches) You win. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 18 10:50:29 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4IHoGL1002735; Tue, 18 May 2004 10:50:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4IHoFem002721; Tue, 18 May 2004 10:50:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 10:50:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40AA4D02.4060508@ihug.co.nz> Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 05:50:58 +1200 From: John Berry User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT Let's roll References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54516 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: >I've noticed that many foreigners view our government, >and the CIA in particular, as this monolithic Godlike being >that can implement far reaching conspiracies 23 steps ahead >of every other sentient being on the planet. > No, they are bungling incompetent fools. anywho > I'm flattered you >think so much of us, but honestly, can you look at any of >our recent foreign interventions and explain how this stuff >could be of any great benefit to US interests? > Yes, but that is totally outside of the scope of anything I was interested. I simply wanted to know people reactions, if they would go to any lengths other than to see what is oh so clear. BTW, I think that the US government is only one possibility, I would suspect mossad also. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 18 10:55:04 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4IHsqWc026153; Tue, 18 May 2004 10:54:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4IHsnSe026131; Tue, 18 May 2004 10:54:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 10:54:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40AA4DDA.6040006@ihug.co.nz> Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 05:54:34 +1200 From: John Berry User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT Let's roll References: <40A962DF.3030608@ihug.co.nz> <40AA3B9B.9030906@pobox.com> <40AA46F3.5020700@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: <40AA46F3.5020700@rtpatlanta.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54517 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> Steel frame melted, building came down, nothing more is needed for an >> explanation. > > > > I attended two symposiums on the cause of the collapse of the towers. > You are absolutely right, the steel melted. > > The steel could have survived except for one thing. The fire > insulation on the structural steel was literally blown off by the > impact of the aircraft. > > BTW, the video is still on the CNN site: > > http://www.cnn.com/video/us/2001/09/12/2nd.plane.hits.cnn.med.html > > No pod. I can clearly see a pod! Look closer! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 18 10:59:45 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4IHxYWc028019; Tue, 18 May 2004 10:59:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4IHxVEF027993; Tue, 18 May 2004 10:59:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 10:59:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <529207a4-422f-4e53-93c6-dc6e781f2eaa> Message-ID: <0fc901c43d01$d543aba0$f27bccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <40A962DF.3030608@ihug.co.nz> <40A97590.1040100@rtpatlanta.com> <40A988AA.8080305@ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: OT Let's roll Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 11:02:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <2ii9uB.A.L1G.D8kqAB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54518 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I haven't looked at all the material, but there seems to be an assertion that a missle pod was attached to the planes that hit the WTC, thereby destroying the buildings and therefor there is some hidden conspiracy. Reality Check: Some time ago, a small plane crashed into the side of the Empire State Building, causing extensive but repairable damage to a couple of floors. The plane-crash-into-building scenario was anticipated by the WTC designers. What they did not anticipate is that the planes would be large airliners, loaded with fuel for nonstop transcontinental flights, and hijacked to fly into the buildings. The buildings did not collapse because of the impact. They collapsed when tons of burning jet fuel weakend the steel support structure holding up the floors above the impact points, beginning a cascade of collapse which took down the whole buildings. The delayed collapse is plainly visible in videos. Not even a cruise missle packs enough energy to cause that kind of damage. It was the jet fuel, which did not not need a missle to ignite it. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 18 12:34:54 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4IJYlWc027713; Tue, 18 May 2004 12:34:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4IJYiaj027691; Tue, 18 May 2004 12:34:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 12:34:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40AA6543.2020207@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 15:34:27 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT Let's roll References: <40A962DF.3030608@ihug.co.nz> <40AA3B9B.9030906@pobox.com> <40AA46F3.5020700@rtpatlanta.com> <40AA4DDA.6040006@ihug.co.nz> In-Reply-To: <40AA4DDA.6040006@ihug.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54519 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > I can clearly see a pod! > Look closer! Not as it enters the frame. It's as big as an engine. You should see it there. Only after it begins to approach the building, when the wingtip shadow is on the fuselage do you see the artifact. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 18 12:49:47 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4IJnaWc031822; Tue, 18 May 2004 12:49:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4IJnYQT031794; Tue, 18 May 2004 12:49:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 12:49:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20040518194920.26854.qmail@web81110.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 12:49:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: OT Let's roll To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <40AA6543.2020207@rtpatlanta.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54520 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Terry, If the famous CNN image, the one taken from the purchased video clip which shows the curious falsely-lit underside of the plane, was was indeed faked by a third party, and then 'pasted-in' to the susequent real crash footage, which is my suspicion: then the plane used for the fake (which obviously doesn't use the standard UA colors, anyway) is the Airbus 320 - which has those pod like things buil-in at all times: http://www.airchive.com/Memorabilia/Airbus/AB-320-1.jpg Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 18 13:58:25 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4IKwB9J019530; Tue, 18 May 2004 13:58:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4IKw459019474; Tue, 18 May 2004 13:58:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 13:58:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40AA794A.6000803@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 16:59:54 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT Let's roll References: <20040518194920.26854.qmail@web81110.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20040518194920.26854.qmail@web81110.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54521 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > --- Terry, > > If the famous CNN image, the one taken from the > purchased video clip which shows the curious > falsely-lit underside of the plane, was was indeed > faked by a third party, and then 'pasted-in' to the > susequent real crash footage, which is my suspicion: > then the plane used for the fake (which obviously > doesn't use the standard UA colors, anyway) is the > Airbus 320 - which has those pod like things buil-in > at all times: > > http://www.airchive.com/Memorabilia/Airbus/AB-320-1.jpg > > Jones Holy Hannah! Jones, you may not be right about this, but you have sure put together the most convincing "hoax" case I've ever heard for a film of a major public event. I think I'm convinced. Doesn't really change the facts about the bombing, doesn't affect who did it or indicate anything about who might have had prior knowledge or any of that other good Conspiracy stuff, but it sure makes the networks look like idiots. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 18 14:38:36 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4ILcNup030326; Tue, 18 May 2004 14:38:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4ILcH9k030264; Tue, 18 May 2004 14:38:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 14:38:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20040518213811.8996.qmail@web81103.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 14:38:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: 9/11 scenario To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <40AA794A.6000803@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1530355908-1084916291=:8063" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54522 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --0-1530355908-1084916291=:8063 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii "Stephen A. Lawrence" wrote: "I think I'm convinced. Doesn't really change the facts about the bombing, doesn't affect who did it or indicate anything about who might have had prior knowledge or any of that other good Conspiracy stuff, but it sure makes the networks look like idiots." Even if I am wrong, they are mostly idiots... ok, with a few honest and admirable people thrown in for good measure. Except for Fox (Faux) = all idiots. But, nevertheless, consider this admittedly inventive scenario. On any balmy September day in NYC before 9/11 you would have found about 500,000 tourists, about 100,000 with video-cams. And almost every foreigner who becomes infatuated with the place, realizes that for him to move to and live in this free-market paradise which is NYC, you must live on your wits. Many want desperately to get away from wherever and try to make it in the city... if you can make it there, you can make it anywhere... right? If say 10,000 video-cams were down around Wall Street when the first plane hit, then they would all be trained up towards the WTC near the time when the second plane went in. No one reasonably doubts any of this so far. But say you are a somewhat savy tourist who the day before had filmed some planes coming and going at JKF and just happened to have some footage of an A320 circling on your flash disk... but, say, you had just barely missed filming the second plane at impact but had good shots of the aftermath - flames and all. Say there was a fully equipped graphics store near where you ducked-for-cover... after cursing yourself for missing the second impact, but in viewing you footage you saw the previous day's A320 and decided to rent a little workstations time. How long would it take a clever tourist, maybe a graphics designer from Poland, to cut and past and restore your flash memory to look like what we have seen... and then find the nearest CNN crew to tell them what you had? You could probably get your footage on line within the hour. Now admittedly CNN had crew there and got some of their own footage, but when they saw your footage ... WOW... the only thing left to do was haggle over the price.... How far off is this? Jones --0-1530355908-1084916291=:8063 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii


"Stephen A. Lawrence" <salaw@pobox.com> wrote:
"I think I'm convinced.

Doesn't really change the facts about the bombing, doesn't affect who
did it or indicate anything about who might have had prior knowledge or
any of that other good Conspiracy stuff, but it sure makes the networks
look like idiots."
 
Even if I am wrong, they are mostly idiots... ok, with a few honest and admirable people thrown in for good measure. Except for Fox (Faux) = all idiots.
 
But, nevertheless, consider this admittedly inventive scenario.
 
On any balmy September day in NYC before 9/11 you would have found about 500,000 tourists, about 100,000 with video-cams. And almost every foreigner who becomes infatuated with the place, realizes that for him to move to and live in this free-market paradise which is NYC, you must live on your wits. Many want desperately to get away from wherever and try to make it in the city... if you can make it there, you can make it anywhere... right?
 
If say 10,000 video-cams were down around Wall Street when the first plane hit, then they would all be trained up towards the WTC near the time when the second plane went in. No one reasonably doubts any of this so far. But say you are a somewhat savy tourist who the day before had filmed some planes coming and going at JKF and just happened to have some footage of an A320 circling on your flash disk... but, say, you had just barely missed filming the second plane at impact but had good shots of the aftermath - flames and all.
 
Say there was a fully equipped graphics store near where you ducked-for-cover... after cursing yourself for missing the second impact, but in viewing you footage you saw the previous day's A320 and decided to rent a little workstations time.
 
How long would it take a clever tourist, maybe a graphics designer from Poland, to cut and past and restore your flash memory to look like what we have seen... and then find the nearest CNN crew to tell them what you had? You could probably get your footage on line within the hour.
 
Now admittedly CNN had crew there and got some of their own footage, but when they saw your footage ... WOW... the only thing left to do was haggle over the price....
 
How far off is this?
 
Jones
 

 
--0-1530355908-1084916291=:8063-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 18 14:39:32 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4ILdQYA016513; Tue, 18 May 2004 14:39:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4ILdKw3016473; Tue, 18 May 2004 14:39:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 14:39:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20040518214001.9334.qmail@web81103.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 14:40:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: 9/11 scenario To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <40AA794A.6000803@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-89760762-1084916401=:9009" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54523 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-89760762-1084916401=:9009 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii "Stephen A. Lawrence" wrote: "I think I'm convinced. Doesn't really change the facts about the bombing, doesn't affect who did it or indicate anything about who might have had prior knowledge or any of that other good Conspiracy stuff, but it sure makes the networks look like idiots." Even if I am wrong, they are mostly idiots... ok, with a few honest and admirable people thrown in for good measure. Except for Fox (Faux) = all idiots. But, nevertheless, consider this admittedly inventive scenario. On any balmy September day in NYC before 9/11 you would have found about 500,000 tourists, about 100,000 with video-cams. And almost every foreigner who becomes infatuated with the place, realizes that for him to move to and live in this free-market paradise which is NYC, you must live on your wits. Many want desperately to get away from wherever and try to make it in the city... if you can make it there, you can make it anywhere... right? If say 10,000 video-cams were down around Wall Street when the first plane hit, then they would all be trained up towards the WTC near the time when the second plane went in. No one reasonably doubts any of this so far. But say you are a somewhat savy tourist who the day before had filmed some planes coming and going at JKF and just happened to have some footage of an A320 circling on your flash disk... but, say, you had just barely missed filming the second plane at impact but had good shots of the aftermath - flames and all. Say there was a fully equipped graphics store near where you ducked-for-cover... after cursing yourself for missing the second impact, but in viewing you footage you saw the previous day's A320 and decided to rent a little workstations time. How long would it take a clever tourist, maybe a graphics designer from Poland, to cut and past and restore your flash memory to look like what we have seen... and then find the nearest CNN crew to tell them what you had? You could probably get your footage on line within the hour. Now admittedly CNN had crew there and got some of their own footage, but when they saw your footage ... WOW... the only thing left to do was haggle over the price.... How far off is this? Jones --0-89760762-1084916401=:9009 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii


"Stephen A. Lawrence" <salaw@pobox.com> wrote:
"I think I'm convinced.

Doesn't really change the facts about the bombing, doesn't affect who
did it or indicate anything about who might have had prior knowledge or
any of that other good Conspiracy stuff, but it sure makes the networks
look like idiots."
 
Even if I am wrong, they are mostly idiots... ok, with a few honest and admirable people thrown in for good measure. Except for Fox (Faux) = all idiots.
 
But, nevertheless, consider this admittedly inventive scenario.
 
On any balmy September day in NYC before 9/11 you would have found about 500,000 tourists, about 100,000 with video-cams. And almost every foreigner who becomes infatuated with the place, realizes that for him to move to and live in this free-market paradise which is NYC, you must live on your wits. Many want desperately to get away from wherever and try to make it in the city... if you can make it there, you can make it anywhere... right?
 
If say 10,000 video-cams were down around Wall Street when the first plane hit, then they would all be trained up towards the WTC near the time when the second plane went in. No one reasonably doubts any of this so far. But say you are a somewhat savy tourist who the day before had filmed some planes coming and going at JKF and just happened to have some footage of an A320 circling on your flash disk... but, say, you had just barely missed filming the second plane at impact but had good shots of the aftermath - flames and all.
 
Say there was a fully equipped graphics store near where you ducked-for-cover... after cursing yourself for missing the second impact, but in viewing you footage you saw the previous day's A320 and decided to rent a little workstations time.
 
How long would it take a clever tourist, maybe a graphics designer from Poland, to cut and past and restore your flash memory to look like what we have seen... and then find the nearest CNN crew to tell them what you had? You could probably get your footage on line within the hour.
 
Now admittedly CNN had crew there and got some of their own footage, but when they saw your footage ... WOW... the only thing left to do was haggle over the price....
 
How far off is this?
 
Jones
 

 
--0-89760762-1084916401=:9009-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 18 19:10:15 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4J2A7cO030174; Tue, 18 May 2004 19:10:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4J2A5Hk030161; Tue, 18 May 2004 19:10:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 19:10:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40AAC32D.7000108@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 22:15:09 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l Subject: EM's Last (Public) Words Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54524 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: According to Richard Hoagland: http://enterprisemission.com/_articles/05-18-2004/eugene_mallove.htm From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 18 19:18:42 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4J2IYcx032383; Tue, 18 May 2004 19:18:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4J2IXG3032361; Tue, 18 May 2004 19:18:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 19:18:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40AAC527.5090400@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 22:23:35 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l Subject: From Atlantis Rising Magazine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54525 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Many of Vorts probably did not read GM's contributions: http://atlantisrising.com/#news Scroll down. Who will replace this man? IF mag must continue. NEF also. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 18 19:36:14 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4J2a7hk009447; Tue, 18 May 2004 19:36:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4J2a4Xt009426; Tue, 18 May 2004 19:36:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 19:36:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20040519023603.73664.qmail@web81103.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 19:36:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: From Atlantis Rising Magazine To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <40AAC527.5090400@rtpatlanta.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54526 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Who, indeed? There is an obvious worthy candidate. But going a bit afield of this rhetorical question, I'm sure you noticed the first article. Coincidentaly or not, there is another piece on Da vinci code stuff by Keith Devlin in the June issue of Discovery Magazine... and its the best issue of that magazine... ever... IMHO. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 18 20:15:05 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4J3Ewun015729; Tue, 18 May 2004 20:14:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4J3Euin015704; Tue, 18 May 2004 20:14:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 20:14:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-2200453193168460@ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: EM's Last (Public) Words Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 20:16:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8935b50571509f5dcd360da355c873d19387f7b89c61deb1d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54527 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: May 18, 2004 Thanks Terry for the two posts, the one from Hoagland's website and Norwich. I had wondered about what Hoagland mentioned in Art Bell's program about 'Gene's last message being a sort of a premonition. I had posted my reaction on 'Gene's death to Vortex on the 16th but due to some temporary quirk in the Netscape software, could not see it. In it I mentioned Hoagland's words but could not clearly connect it to 'Gene's latest published editorials in the I.E. magazine. I now see 'Gene's words to be in the upcoming issue. The question now is Who will now be the I.E. Editor in Chief. I believe Jed had posted the Norwich news article earlier but it is good to see the actual article at the paper's website with pictures. Thanks to you and Jed. -ak- > [Original Message] > From: Terry Blanton > To: vortex-l > Date: 5/18/2004 7:10:07 PM > Subject: EM's Last (Public) Words > > According to Richard Hoagland: > > http://enterprisemission.com/_articles/05-18-2004/eugene_mallove.htm > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 18 21:47:57 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4J4llPg016425; Tue, 18 May 2004 21:47:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4J4ljWm016407; Tue, 18 May 2004 21:47:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 21:47:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <40AA794A.6000803@pobox.com> References: <20040518194920.26854.qmail@web81110.mail.yahoo.com> <40AA794A.6000803@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 18:47:32 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: OT Let's roll Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54529 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen - The 767 is very similar, and appears to have a landing gear bulge like the Airbus, FWIW. - R. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 18 22:00:11 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4J501pj017083; Tue, 18 May 2004 22:00:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4J4Xhra011007; Tue, 18 May 2004 21:33:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 21:33:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <40AA043C.8090300@rtpatlanta.com> References: <40A962DF.3030608@ihug.co.nz> <40A97590.1040100@rtpatlanta.com> <40A988AA.8080305@ihug.co.nz> <40AA043C.8090300@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 18:34:25 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: OT Let's roll Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54528 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry - > and explain to me how your missle pod avoided conflict with the landing gear. By *being* the landing gear door? - plane maybe beginning to throw parts at near 500mph in low-altitude thick atmosphere in a hard turn? It's either nothing or some dumb thing like that. Do we really have pod shaped ufo's from the Secret Government attaching themselves to planes and driving them into buildings? No. - R. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 19 05:52:21 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4JCqGZe001480; Wed, 19 May 2004 05:52:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4JCqDfK001454; Wed, 19 May 2004 05:52:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 05:52:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40AB5876.70602@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 08:52:06 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT Let's roll References: <40A962DF.3030608@ihug.co.nz> <40A97590.1040100@rtpatlanta.com> <40A988AA.8080305@ihug.co.nz> <40AA043C.8090300@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <4q0YLB.A.oW.9h1qAB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54530 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: >Do we really have pod shaped ufo's from the Secret Government attaching themselves to planes and driving them into buildings? No. > That's a new one! Considering the asymmetrical mounting of the huge missile pod, that aircraft must have been a bitch to control, especially remotely. :-) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 19 06:34:48 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4JDYhAI006742; Wed, 19 May 2004 06:34:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4JDYbNV006704; Wed, 19 May 2004 06:34:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 06:34:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Eugene Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 14:35:41 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C43DA6.2DE8F4E6" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54531 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C43DA6.2DE8F4E6 Content-Type: text/plain The Mallove Family, Christy, Friends, Rest in Peace Gene. We all miss you. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C43DA6.2DE8F4E6 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The Mallove Family, Christy, = Friends,

 

Rest in Peace Gene.

 

We all miss you.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C43DA6.2DE8F4E6-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 19 07:21:00 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4JEKdZe025886; Wed, 19 May 2004 07:20:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4JEKaRW025853; Wed, 19 May 2004 07:20:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 07:20:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40AB6D27.3060905@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 10:20:23 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: EM's Last (Public) Words Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <4p1ztB.A.3TG.002qAB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54532 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Akira Kawasaki wrote: >May 18, 2004 > >Thanks Terry for the two posts, the one from Hoagland's website and >Norwich. > Vorts might also be interested in the condolences petition at: http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?mallove which has signatories worldwide. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 19 07:25:39 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4JEPTAI019582; Wed, 19 May 2004 07:25:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4JEPS0K019564; Wed, 19 May 2004 07:25:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 07:25:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: "Johnson, Steven" To: "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" Subject: Eugene's Service Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 09:26:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-PMX-Version: 4.6.0.99824, Antispam-Core: 4.6.0.99824, Antispam-Data: 2004.5.18.101069 Resent-Message-ID: <7wQ_aD.A.oxE.Y52qAB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54533 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Did anyone on this vortex list have the chance to attend the Temple service for Eugene? If so, could you give us your account? Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 19 08:03:45 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4JF3eAI030466; Wed, 19 May 2004 08:03:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4JF3d1f030444; Wed, 19 May 2004 08:03:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 08:03:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20040519103256.00b23630@mail.lenr-canr.org> X-Sender: logs@lenr-canr.org@mail.lenr-canr.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 11:04:37 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Eugene's Service Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54534 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Johnson, Steven writes: > Did anyone on this vortex list have the chance to attend the Temple service > for Eugene? > > If so, could you give us your account? I was there. I will try to pull myself together and write an account . . . Although there is not much to say, really. Gene's cousin, son and daughter gave very moving, brave and wonderful eulogies. His son has grown so handsome, so sure of himself, it was wonderful to see. At the same time he so resembled his father (especially when he made fun of him and imitated him) it broke my heart. The Temple was full, with standing room only. There were not many people from the cold fusion community, because it happened so suddenly, and because most researchers are old and immobile, but I am sure many others were there in spirit. Regarding the criminal investigation, I head that the arrest has been made, and it wasn't the tenant after all. I apologize to the tenant. I know no other details, and honestly, I do not wish to hear anything more about it. Perhaps in a month or two . . . Regarding the conspiracy theories surrounding Gene's death, I think they are all bosh. I would be irritated by them -- not upset, merely irritated -- were it not for the fact that Gene himself would probably believe them. I can imagine him charging off half cocked and excited by them, and the thought is pleasing and sentimental. Regarding the conspiracy theory that a missile was attached to the airplanes that crashed into the WTC towers, that is so stupid it too is rather amusing. There is no conceivable use for a missile. It would not add 1% to the destructive power, or to the force of the explosion. It certainly would not be needed to trigger the explosion! With the hot engines, the friction, the electrical connections within the building, and other sources of ignition, it was certain that an explosion would occur. The CIA is smart in some ways, and stupid in others, but they do understand basic physics. They would never be so stupid they would add a useless, dead-give-away "missile pod" when the airplane itself is all that is needed. Explosives have much lower energy density than jet fuel and other hydrocarbons. This theory reminds me a little of the Waco whackos who claimed the video showed machine gun fire coming from a helicopter hovering over the building. The Republican judge who investigated the incident pointed out that the helicopter doors were closed during that portion of the video. I suppose someone would have noticed if the helicopter had landed with its doors and windows shot to pieces from within. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 19 08:37:45 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4JFbZZe017220; Wed, 19 May 2004 08:37:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4JFbTNf017184; Wed, 19 May 2004 08:37:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 08:37:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: "Johnson, Steven" To: "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Eugene's Service Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 10:37:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-PMX-Version: 4.6.0.99824, Antispam-Core: 4.6.0.99824, Antispam-Data: 2004.5.18.101069 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54535 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A > From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell@mindspring.com] > Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 10:05 AM > To: vortex-L@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Eugene's Service ... > I was there. I will try to pull myself together and write an > account . . . Thank you for your account, Jed. Most sincerely, SVJ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 19 09:13:53 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4JGDgAI018206; Wed, 19 May 2004 09:13:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4JGDerJ018191; Wed, 19 May 2004 09:13:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 09:13:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 09:14:45 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" Subject: Gene Mallove guestbook, funeral In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54536 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: S. Allan, pureenergysystems.com, set this up: Mallove condolences guestbook http://www.petitiononline.com/mallove/ I'm numb. The world will not be the same. Articles: Mallove laid to rest Norwich-born scientist a victim of slaying; family, friends say farewell at N.H. funeral http://www.norwichbulletin.com/news/stories/20040519/localnews/451883.html Editorial: Unexpected death dims a bright star Friends here and scientists everywhere mourn Mallove http://www.norwichbulletin.com/news/stories/20040519/opinion/451955.html See http://freeenergy.greaterthings.com/newstuff/ for links (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 19 16:56:21 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4JNuHAI028987; Wed, 19 May 2004 16:56:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4JNuAYu028919; Wed, 19 May 2004 16:56:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 16:56:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20040519170121.04d97ab8@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 17:02:54 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Subject: Re: Eugene's Service In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54537 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Yes, I did Short, simple, sweet. His cousin Janna, son Ethan, daughter Kim spoke. About 200 people. I'll have a bit more in the 6/1 newsletter (which will also post to Vortex) At 09:26 AM 5/19/2004 -0500, you wrote: >Did anyone on this vortex list have the chance to attend the Temple service >for Eugene? > >If so, could you give us your account? > >Steven Vincent Johnson >www.OrionWorks.com Thanks, Steve From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 19 17:20:05 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4K0JsZe022303; Wed, 19 May 2004 17:19:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4K0Jqlw022269; Wed, 19 May 2004 17:19:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 17:19:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20040519172501.04da69b0@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 17:25:34 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Subject: I.E. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_-2112573687==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54538 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_-2112573687==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi Akira, I thought it would be helpful for others if I replied to you on Vortex - Thanks for your kind thoughts and consideration. Working with the IE magazine, is not for me. But I will be carrying on the spirit of Gene's passion for cold fusion, to communicate the truth and facts wherever and however I can. My preferred medium is electronic, hence www.newenergytimes.com and my newly activated series of newsletters. My focus has always been, and will continue to be for the foreseeable future, exclusive to CF. I will also be publishing a book shortly on the rebirth of cold fusion, with my wife and co-author Nadine, which we hope will be helpful. Since March, I have been actively engaged in a media campaign on behalf of cold fusion - this is where my focus is directed. I was on coasttocoastam the other night and I'll be on WWOW 1360AM tomorrow at 6am pst if I can manage to get up that early. It will be lonely without Gene and I do not relish being on the front lines without him. I, like, you await to hear word from the IE Board as to their thoughts as how to go on from here. Thanks, Steve --=====================_-2112573687==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Hi Akira,

I thought it would be helpful for others if I replied to you on Vortex -

Thanks for your kind thoughts and consideration.  Working with the IE magazine, is not for me. But I will be carrying on the spirit of Gene's passion for cold fusion, to communicate the truth and facts wherever and however I can. 

My preferred medium is electronic, hence www.newenergytimes.com and my newly activated series of newsletters.  My focus has always been, and will continue to be for the foreseeable future, exclusive to CF.  I will also be publishing a book shortly on the rebirth of cold fusion, with my wife and co-author Nadine, which we hope will be helpful. 

Since March, I have been actively engaged in a media campaign on behalf of cold fusion - this is where my focus is directed.  I was on coasttocoastam the other night and I'll be on WWOW 1360AM tomorrow at 6am pst if I can manage to get up that early.

It will be lonely without Gene and I do not relish being on the front lines without him.

I, like, you await to hear word from the IE Board as to their thoughts as how to go on from here.

Thanks,

Steve --=====================_-2112573687==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 19 17:57:50 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4K0viZe002803; Wed, 19 May 2004 17:57:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4K0vbRB002751; Wed, 19 May 2004 17:57:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 17:57:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20040519180310.04d17eb0@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 18:03:25 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Subject: Tribute to Dr. Eugene Mallove by Mike Carrell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54539 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: http://www.newenergytimes.com/news/DrEugeneMallove-MC.htm Steve From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 19 18:16:50 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4K1GgZe009239; Wed, 19 May 2004 18:16:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4K1GeV7009215; Wed, 19 May 2004 18:16:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 18:16:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20040519182153.04d02fe8@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 18:22:28 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Subject: Note from Sir Arthur C. Clarke Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54540 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Subject: Re: DR. EUGENE MALLOVE, June 9, 1947 - May 14, 2004 > >Sorry to hear about Gene Mallove - please convey my sympathy to his family. >I hope the C/F controversy is soon resolved - few things could be more >important.... > > Best wishes, > > Arthur Clarke 16 May 04 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 20 02:19:04 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4K9IwkD017355; Thu, 20 May 2004 02:18:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4K9IXqZ017257; Thu, 20 May 2004 02:18:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 02:18:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Memorial? Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 10:18:39 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C43E4B.6FB2FA2A" Resent-Message-ID: <2XrV0D.A.lNE.pfHrAB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54541 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C43E4B.6FB2FA2A Content-Type: text/plain Dear Vorts, Is it wise, can this be done? For those of us who only got to know recently and were unable to attend the funeral, could a full memorial service be carried out in a few months? Remi. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C43E4B.6FB2FA2A Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear Vorts,

 

Is it wise, can this be done? For those of us who = only got to know recently and were unable to attend the funeral, could a full = memorial service be carried out in a few months?

 

Remi.<= font size=3D2 face=3DArial>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C43E4B.6FB2FA2A-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 20 07:54:20 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4KEsCkD004584; Thu, 20 May 2004 07:54:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4KEs7UM004544; Thu, 20 May 2004 07:54:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 07:54:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <5b567320-e460-4f70-9775-467f4828ea39> Message-ID: <002501c43e7a$421d5f90$257accd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: Subject: Re: Memorial? Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 10:51:26 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54542 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vorts, Is it wise, can this be done? For those of us who only got to know recently and were unable to attend the funeral, could a full memorial service be carried out in a few months? Remi. ---------------------------- A memorial edition of IE will be published. I will prepare a statement beyond what I have posted on Vortex. Other contributions are welcome, and should be addressed to staff@infinite-energy.com. There is a website which has accumulated over a hundred signatures and notes of condolence from around the world. I'm sure it will be passed on to the family. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 20 08:41:33 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4KFfOkD022445; Thu, 20 May 2004 08:41:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4KFfM8B022431; Thu, 20 May 2004 08:41:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 08:41:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20040520084521.04df7488@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 08:47:04 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Subject: Re: Memorial? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_-2057286609==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <7DoAsC.A.aeF.iGNrAB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54543 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_-2057286609==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Remi... Its a nice idea. It would require a volunteer to step up and devise the appropriate context and manage the coordination. At 10:18 AM 5/20/2004 +0100, you wrote: >Dear Vorts, >Is it wise, can this be done? For those of us who only got to know >recently and were unable to attend the funeral, could a full memorial >service be carried out in a few months? >Remi. Steve --=====================_-2057286609==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Remi...

Its a nice idea.  It would require a volunteer to step up and devise the appropriate context and manage the coordination.


At 10:18 AM 5/20/2004 +0100, you wrote:
Dear Vorts,
Is it wise, can this be done? For those of us who only got to know recently and were unable to attend the funeral, could a full memorial service be carried out in a few months?
Remi.



Steve --=====================_-2057286609==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 20 09:06:02 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4KG5q06004082; Thu, 20 May 2004 09:05:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4KG5jau004039; Thu, 20 May 2004 09:05:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 09:05:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20040520091208.04d014f8@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 09:12:26 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Subject: Tribute to Dr. Eugene Mallove by Erik Baard Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54544 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: http://www.newenergytimes.com/news/DrEugeneMallove-EB.htm From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 20 09:43:29 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4KGhJkD010209; Thu, 20 May 2004 09:43:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4KGhAVM010159; Thu, 20 May 2004 09:43:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 09:43:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Erikbaard@aol.com Message-ID: <12c.42475871.2dde3a0f@aol.com> Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 12:42:55 EDT Subject: Re: Tribute to Dr. Eugene Mallove by Erik Baard To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1085071375" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5028 Resent-Message-ID: <-qHDoB.A.reC.dAOrAB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54545 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -------------------------------1085071375 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All - Thanks for noting my write-up. Please note that this was more of a straight report than a tribute, of which Dr. Mallove was surely worthy, and that on my website I've since removed the reference to the rental dispute as apparently underlying the murder. That explanation has been since withdrawn, I understand. I did write up a brief statement to the list, with a few typos in it, that is a bit more of a tribute. Or perhaps can be edited to be. Best regards to all, and sympathies, Erik -------------------------------1085071375 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi All -
 
Thanks for noting my write-up. Please note that this was more of a= straight report than a tribute, of which Dr. Mallove was surely worthy, and= that on my website I've since removed the reference to the rental dispute a= s apparently underlying the murder. That explanation has been since withdraw= n, I understand.
 
I did write up a brief statement to the list, with a few typos in it, t= hat is a bit more of a tribute. Or perhaps can be edited to be.
 
Best regards to all, and sympathies,
 
Erik 
-------------------------------1085071375-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 20 09:52:48 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4KGqa06018612; Thu, 20 May 2004 09:52:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4KGqXB8018595; Thu, 20 May 2004 09:52:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 09:52:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20040520095840.04d728c0@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 09:59:26 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Subject: Re: Tribute to Dr. Eugene Mallove by Erik Baard In-Reply-To: <12c.42475871.2dde3a0f@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54546 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Erik... Please send me (privately) your corrected copy so I can upload that. Steve At 12:42 PM 5/20/2004 -0400, you wrote: >Hi All - > >Thanks for noting my write-up. Please note that this was more of a >straight report than a tribute, of which Dr. Mallove was surely worthy, >and that on my website I've since removed the reference to the rental >dispute as apparently underlying the murder. That explanation has been >since withdrawn, I understand. > >I did write up a brief statement to the list, with a few typos in it, that >is a bit more of a tribute. Or perhaps can be edited to be. > >Best regards to all, and sympathies, > >Erik From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 20 10:39:29 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4KHdO06000595; Thu, 20 May 2004 10:39:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4KHdNrW000521; Thu, 20 May 2004 10:39:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 10:39:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT Let's roll Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 14:14:57 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <40A962DF.3030608@ihug.co.nz> <40AA3B9B.9030906@pobox.com> <40AA46F3.5020700@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: <40AA46F3.5020700@rtpatlanta.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200405201414.57374.rockcast@earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: <9uiCtD.A.FI.L1OrAB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54547 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tuesday 18 May 2004 13:25, Terry Blanton wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > Steel frame melted, building came down, nothing more is needed for an > > explanation. > > I attended two symposiums on the cause of the collapse of the towers. > You are absolutely right, the steel melted. > > The steel could have survived except for one thing. The fire insulation > on the structural steel was literally blown off by the impact of the > aircraft. > > BTW, the video is still on the CNN site: > > http://www.cnn.com/video/us/2001/09/12/2nd.plane.hits.cnn.med.html > > No pod. > > However, as the tilts into its port turn, the starboard wingtip shadow > crosses the fuselage leaving a bright/shadow/bright area. It is this > light shift which has caused the artifact, IMO. This is shown in the > site referenced by Mr. Berry: > > http://www.amics21.com/911/flight175 > > left column, "click on photos through various filters". Yup! Steel melted! Yup! Sure did!....what there was of it. I have looked at the pix too and remember also the pictures of the Oklahoma City federal building that was bombed by the arabs...o....excuse me the official line is the 'michigan militia'. Those pictures of the devastation of that building in OKC show in graphic detail that the floor slabs of that building were paper thin. The columns were'nt much better. It could be argued that a force 4 to 5 earthquake could have brought the building down. It could also be argued that in a few years, it would have fallen down all by itself, a victim of many possible causes like corrosion of the reinforcing steel, inadequate concrete strength, improperly designed floor slabs and columns, and my favorite of all ----plastic deformation engineering or the use of the plastic portion of the typical stress strain curves for materials as a basis of design. The thing was engineered to fail. Maybe the authorities knew that, which explains why the wreckage was 'cleared' so quickly. The government looking for cheap space; the contractors looking for ways to chintz on their obligations; the inspectors having their integrity compromised by unhealthy relationships between contractors and local contracting authorities ---relationships that may have involved secret bribery; other mistakes by design personnel pushed for completion of a project at the expense of safety; use of the above mentioned 'voodoo engineering' that creates flimsy structures; the list goes on. I had an instructor of steel design who was from India. His father was killed on such a structure when it collapsed while under construction. A contractor had adulterated the concrete, lowering its strength. Another contractor had used this concrete in casting some 'prestressed' beams, only this worthy used cheap 34ksi steel for re-bar instead of the 60 ksi steel called for in the specifications, and then compounded the felony when he installed the rebar on the wrong side of the beam...in the compression side instead of the tension side. Young Vishnu witnessed the death of his father, an inspector, who fell to his death when the building collapsed. Vishnu grew up to be an engineering professor in California where I went to university. He had sworn that day to try to protect the world from other disasters like the one that took the life of his father in front of his eyes. Vishnu was a very tough instructor. I passed his course. Unfortunately what the world's businessmen are willing to pay for are the likes of those who caused Vishnu's father's death. They want cheap in front of safety; and bribery in front of rectitude. We will have more disasters like these. In addition, never forget that Osama Bin Laden was and is a civil engineer. He knows as well as anyone how not only to build a structure for his family's business, but also how to destroy them. Those planes were targeted for not the top but quite a number of stories down from the tops of those towers. This was probably on purpose by him so that when the fire melted the columns, the upper floors would act as a giant hammer to impact and destroy the rest of the structure. Whoever controlled those suicidal fanatics are the ones to blame for this and probably not some shadowy 'government' conspiracy. Contributing to the demise was the unfortunate combination of a graft ridden bidding system and a tragic triumph of artistry over safety replicated over all levels of the whole construction process. Remember that the towers were 'experimental' buildings as well, not the traditional cage structure that has served us well over many decades. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 20 12:31:28 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4KJVJIu030668; Thu, 20 May 2004 12:31:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4KJVFGJ030636; Thu, 20 May 2004 12:31:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 12:31:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20040520152731.00b235f8@mail.lenr-canr.org> X-Sender: logs@lenr-canr.org@mail.lenr-canr.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 15:32:24 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Your very own copy of LENR-CANR Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <9_2s1C.A.keH.DeQrAB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54548 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I have uploaded a 126 MB zip file containing everything in LENR-CANR.org. This is for Dr. Li and his mirror site. I do not plan to leave it there, because it takes up space and the original files change every day. If you would like your very own copy of LENR-CANR.org, and you have a fast Internet connection or you have nothing better to do for the next several hours, you can download it from: http://lenr-canr.org/temp/ It is password protected to prevent the Google robots from indexing it. The user name is: temp Password: sesame - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 20 12:59:51 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4KJxbCM003699; Thu, 20 May 2004 12:59:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4KJxY4d003680; Thu, 20 May 2004 12:59:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 12:59:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <009e01c43ea4$7d22ae40$8837fea9@pacbell.net> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: We already have a living memorial Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 12:56:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id i4KJxWCM003655 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54549 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: As a kind of ongoing memorial... perhaps it is the kind of memorial that any scientist would prefer if he had the luxury of thinking about it in advance, I was reading trough the old IE magazine collection, paying particular attention to the editorials. In 1996, issue #10, Gene Mallove looks at carbon arc experiments going back nearly 40 years to Oshawa. This is the kind of controversial material that no other science editor in the universe... except perhaps the ones who already frequent vortex, would touch. Hopefully, one day the world will appreciate that Gene had the courage... whether it be in writing this article or in allowing some other equally controversial research to be aired... the courage to stand up for experimental results at the expense of theory - even results that are extremely uncomfortable to the establishment. Aetherometry may be another such area, I don't know, but many of these results are inter-related on a plane that we just are not sure of yet. Sometimes I wonder if there is a second kind of overriding natural statistical phenomenon which permits these kinds of anomalies - like quantum mechanics but operating on a slightly larger scale, the details of which are yet to be explained. Anyway, in that particular issue, Gene reports that Brokris of Texas A&M replicates Oshawa and finds substantial amounts of carbon transmutation. This paper and another replication is available on lenr-canr.org. http://www.lenr-canr.org/PDetail8.htm#2602 Surprisingly it is a very odd kind of transmutation where carbon and oxygen are said fuse to iron - 56Fe. Most physicist would scoff at this, wouldn't they? Actually most wouldn't even address it at all in public, as it would be too preposterous to even consider. But when you focus on the results, and this one seems to have been replicated three or more times by PhDs, you put your own credibility on the line. It may take years or decades, but if the technique is even remotely viable, it will never be too late to revisit the work, despite the skeptics scorn. But that could be said for several dozen cash-starved areas of LENR research. If nothing else, Gene Mallove provided posterity with easy access to these controversial issues - and a logical juxtaposition of various experiments alongside other anomalies. On that note, I will bid adieu to Gene's lingering presence, thank him for stimulating the imagination, and delve into another long thread of open-ended speculation on the related subject of carbon in overunity experiments in a separate post. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 20 14:10:42 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4KLAaO1024489; Thu, 20 May 2004 14:10:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4KLATYQ024445; Thu, 20 May 2004 14:10:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 14:10:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40AD1FDB.48359AA@ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 14:15:07 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Gene, gone but not forgotten Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54550 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Death is such a nuisance. It makes our friends sad and our enemies gloat. Besides, each of us is reminded that we might be next. What is worse, the timing is seldom right. Of the many reasons to mourn Gene's leaving, this one gives me the most grief. Here was a man who reminded the ignorant and corrupt of their limitations and who, as is always the case, was made to pay a price. He stubbornly paid this price for years, all the while reminding the narrow thinking that no matter how they used their fame and power, he was not going to give up. Gradually, his message was shown to be correct. Then, just when the deserved reward was almost in hand, a brutal and ignorant man wanting a few dollars denies this reward to Gene. Unfortunately, this same thing happens all too often to each of us, not by death but by the ignorance and selfishness of economic and political leaders. While mourning Gene, I suggest you think about mourning what each of us is losing by the events of these days. Gene is off to another adventure, while we are stuck with this one. Ed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 20 14:20:30 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4KLKOO1027533; Thu, 20 May 2004 14:20:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4KLKNuc027506; Thu, 20 May 2004 14:20:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 14:20:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40ACF2DB.6070204@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 14:03:07 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT Let's roll References: <40A962DF.3030608@ihug.co.nz> <40AA3B9B.9030906@pobox.com> <40AA46F3.5020700@rtpatlanta.com> <200405201414.57374.rockcast@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <200405201414.57374.rockcast@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54551 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Standing Bear wrote: >Yup! Steel melted! Yup! Sure did!....what there was of it. > Uh, there was no masonry in the WTC. It was essentially a steel tube with horizontal trusses. Here's a good description from a knowledgeable source. http://www.civil.usyd.edu.au/latest/wtc.php#system From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 20 17:18:43 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4L0IcO1012820; Thu, 20 May 2004 17:18:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4L0IYYN012768; Thu, 20 May 2004 17:18:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 17:18:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-22004552102070@ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Memorial? Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 17:20:07 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d80cfac21bee1ce4b62ff2e26c7946de9485e0aeacdf564a64350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54552 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: May 20, 2004 Vortex, I think 'Gene's effect on the CF (LENR/CANR) community was international in scope. So I would think there will be a memorial observation at the ICCF-11. There was a memorial observation at the ICCF-8 in Italy for Fleischman's fellow CF researcher, Preparata. Time and events do take their toll. So if the feeling is strong enough, perhaps registering and attending the ICCF-11 would be a strong tribute. Also supporting I.E. and contributing to New Energy Foundation would be a living tribute. Sincerely, Akira Kawasaki > [Original Message] > From: Mike Carrell > To: > Date: 5/20/2004 7:54:12 AM > Subject: Re: Memorial? > > > Dear Vorts, > > Is it wise, can this be done? For those of us who only got to know recently > and were unable to attend the funeral, could a full memorial service be > carried out in a few months? > > Remi. > ---------------------------- > A memorial edition of IE will be published. I will prepare a statement > beyond what I have posted on Vortex. Other contributions are welcome, and > should be addressed to staff@infinite-energy.com. There is a website which > has accumulated over a hundred signatures and notes of condolence from > around the world. I'm sure it will be passed on to the family. > > Mike Carrell > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 20 20:42:49 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4L3gbWw032525; Thu, 20 May 2004 20:42:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4L3gYNE032506; Thu, 20 May 2004 20:42:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 20:42:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 23:43:43 EDT Subject: Glowing speckles in the Beach Sand To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_da.b2144f7.2dded4ef_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6804 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54553 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --part1_da.b2144f7.2dded4ef_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just returned from a vacation at the Outer Banks of North Carolina USA. I went out on the beach at night. I ran my hand across the wet smooth sand next to the water. It lit up with sparking little bluish colored speckles. It was amazing. I'm not sure what is causing this, a reaction with the sand, biological, or something else. I wonder it the effect could be developed into something useful. any ideas, Frank Znidarsic --part1_da.b2144f7.2dded4ef_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just returned from a vacation at=20= the Outer Banks of North Carolina USA.  I went out on the beach at nigh= t.  I ran my hand across the wet smooth sand next to the water.  I= t lit up with sparking little bluish colored speckles.  It was amazing.=   I'm not sure what is causing this, a reaction with the sand, biologic= al, or something else.  I wonder it the effect could be developed into=20= something useful.


any ideas,

Frank Znidarsic --part1_da.b2144f7.2dded4ef_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 20 22:37:28 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4L5ZtCM027110; Thu, 20 May 2004 22:37:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4L5Zh9P027041; Thu, 20 May 2004 22:35:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 22:35:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Erikbaard@aol.com Message-ID: <67.29bc2f37.2ddeef2c@aol.com> Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 01:35:40 EDT Subject: Re: Glowing speckles in the Beach Sand To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1085117740" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54554 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -------------------------------1085117740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All - Sounds like bioluminescence. It is indeed amazing stuff. As for usefulness, it's very, very useful. The Japanese carried packets of microbes during WW2. When they needed light to read maps, they spat into a palm full of microbes and rubbed to activate the them. Microbes light up as a kind of visual scream, according to researchers. When they are eaten by shrimp, they light up to attract the predators of shrimp. One of the best places on Earth to see this effect is in Puerto Rico. There's a bay there where you can leave a comet trail by just swimming. But by far the most useful application of BL and phosphorescence is in genetic research. The gene for these attributes are inserted so that biologists can see (literally) when parts of the genome are activated under different circumstances. I did a lot of research on this topic for the New York Times for an article that never saw the light of day or microbe. Long story... : ) If there's more interest in this, maybe I'll revive it. Best regards, Erik Baard -------------------------------1085117740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi All -
 
Sounds like bioluminescence. It is indeed amazing stuff. As for usefuln= ess, it's very, very useful. The Japanese carried packets of microbes&n= bsp;during WW2. When they needed light to read maps, they spat into a palm f= ull of microbes and rubbed to activate the them.
 
Microbes light up as a kind of visual scream, according to researchers.= When they are eaten by shrimp, they light up to attract the predators of sh= rimp. One of the best places on Earth to see this effect is in Puerto Rico.=20= There's a bay there where you can leave a comet trail by just swimming.
 
But by far the most useful application of BL and phosphorescence is in=20= genetic research. The gene for these attributes are inserted so that bi= ologists can see (literally) when parts of the genome are activated under di= fferent circumstances.
 
I did a lot of research on this topic for the New York Times for an art= icle that never saw the light of day or microbe. Long story...  &n= bsp; : )   If there's more interest in this, maybe I'll revive it.=
 
Best regards,
 
Erik Baard
-------------------------------1085117740-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 21 00:36:49 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4L7ZFCM025750; Fri, 21 May 2004 00:36:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4L7Z8l1025706; Fri, 21 May 2004 00:35:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 00:35:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <40A43694.2010208@pobox.com> References: <20040513163844.47757.qmail@web80403.mail.yahoo.com> <40A3C80D.2090309@pobox.com> <40A3F565.8010406@rtpatlanta.com> <40A43694.2010208@pobox.com> Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 02:34:09 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: OT - more 'semi-official' lies? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <_HyzyC.A.kRG.sEbrAB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54555 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Terry Blanton wrote: >> >>Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: And I replied; >> >>>The linked article describes a video tape which shows a nearly >>>bloodless beheading. (I have not seen the tape, just the >>>description.) >>> >>>That is ... um ... "anomalous", I would say. Highly anomalous. >>>Almost makes it on-topic, really. >> >> >>Actually, quite on-topic for a science list. I don't know, we discuss life, the universe, and everything. >> >> From someone who has "slayed" many a chicken for dinner, take a >>look at the pumping system of the heart and see what happens then >>you cut BOTH THE ARTERIES AND THE VEINS. >> >>You liberal conspiracists are actually making me sick. I hope to >>G-d, that the family of Berg don't have to endure this. > >Liberal conspiracists...? > >OK, Terry, you're not a liberal, right? > >So you say. The last chicken that I beheaded sprayed blood all over the place, it's not like it turned the place into a slaughter house. > >Do you know where your 20th anniversary edition of National Review is? > >You did save it, right? It's a collector's item. I've still got >mine. Only a liberal could possibly have discarded it. You must >remember it -- it's the issue in which they While I am a conservative, and have the upmost respect for N R, I don't subscribe to it. > >Reagan was great, in my opinion, and in the opinions of lots of >others, who would have happily elected him to a third term if he >could have run. I'm not ashamed to Both Reagan Bush Senior were more liberal than me, you hold your nose and take what you can get, that's politics >On the other hand, Bush Junior turns my stomach, and the change in >the Republican party from the party of the anti-communists to the >party of the fundamentalists Why, Laura doesn't consult psysics? In case you haven't heard, we have been attacked by a religion of fanatics who would like to give us the alternative of convert or die. However there is a third option, we incinerate them. >does not seem to me to have been a change for the better. Part of >the reason is that I still believe in the separation of church and >state, which is, Separation of church and state is a stupid, misguided fiction created by liberal lawyers in the '50's. If I could do any one thing, I would abolish it. >I really fear, a feeling not everyone in our current government >shares. And part of the reason is that I valued our foreign >alliances -- you know, the ones we use to have, the ones that Reagan >cemented, and that Bush Senior worked so hard to preserve during the >first Gulf war. Do you mean our Arabian allies? Don't forget where 19 of the 20 suicide monsters came from. > >Does all that make me a liberal conspiracist? > >You might consider reading a bit about the Berg family, by the way. >They are apparently "liberal conspiracists" themselves. It just goes to show you that Jews are waking up and realizing what their priorities are, and who their friends (Christians) are. The father is liberal, the son was conservative. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 21 05:48:48 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4LClGCM014830; Fri, 21 May 2004 05:48:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4LCl80E014794; Fri, 21 May 2004 05:47:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 05:47:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <1085143550.40adf9fea2950@www.cavecreek.net> Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 05:45:50 -0700 From: "Tz'Akh" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Glowing speckles in the Beach Sand References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.2 X-Originating-IP: 208.40.148.38 Resent-Message-ID: <9GGx-C.A.GnD.MpfrAB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54556 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To my memory it is a microorganicm in the sand. This happens on other beaches as well, most notably creating 'ghostly' footprint trails in the sand by night time beach walkers. Sometimes they last long enough you can see your own prints. Zak Quoting FZNIDARSIC@aol.com: > I just returned from a vacation at the Outer Banks of North Carolina USA. I > > went out on the beach at night. I ran my hand across the wet smooth sand > next > to the water. It lit up with sparking little bluish colored speckles. It > was amazing. I'm not sure what is causing this, a reaction with the sand, > biological, or something else. I wonder it the effect could be developed > into > something useful. > > > any ideas, > > Frank Znidarsic > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 21 06:59:29 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4LDxNWw004921; Fri, 21 May 2004 06:59:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4LDxFvi004871; Fri, 21 May 2004 06:59:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 06:59:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40AE0B81.7090602@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 10:00:33 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Glowing speckles in the Beach Sand References: <67.29bc2f37.2ddeef2c@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <67.29bc2f37.2ddeef2c@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54557 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Erikbaard@aol.com wrote: > Hi All - > > Sounds like bioluminescence. These microbes played a key role in Dan Brown's book "Deception Point" (Brown is the author of the controversial "The DaVinci Code") where a meteor containing fossils is uncovered in Artic ice. I mention this book because the "deception", while hinted at by luminous phytoplankton, is actually exposed by something near and dear to our heart -- chondrules! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 21 07:01:50 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4LE1WWw005875; Fri, 21 May 2004 07:01:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4LE1UZ4005772; Fri, 21 May 2004 07:01:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 07:01:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40AE0C0D.1060907@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 10:02:53 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT - more 'semi-official' lies? References: <20040513163844.47757.qmail@web80403.mail.yahoo.com> <40A3C80D.2090309@pobox.com> <40A3F565.8010406@rtpatlanta.com> <40A43694.2010208@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <-hReY.A.8ZB.6ugrAB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54558 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > The last chicken that I beheaded sprayed blood all over the place, > it's not like it turned the place into a slaughter house. Okay, we need details here. Did you whack, saw, or wring? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 21 07:02:30 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4LE2OWw006223; Fri, 21 May 2004 07:02:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4LE2N7W006195; Fri, 21 May 2004 07:02:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 07:02:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Sender: jack@mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <40ADFCBD.67A4ADA5@centurytel.net> Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 12:57:33 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT Let's roll References: <40A962DF.3030608@ihug.co.nz> <40AA3B9B.9030906@pobox.com> <40AA46F3.5020700@rtpatlanta.com> <200405201414.57374.rockcast@earthlink.net> <40ACF2DB.6070204@rtpatlanta.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; name="xt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xt" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54559 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, I finally looked at the web sites mentioned here in the 767 missile discussion, and I'm enclosing some excerpts below. Since the "evidence" is graphic, it is suspect because any graphic circulating in cyberspace may be "enhanced", but these excerpts are interesting. Gene's tragic passing makes me nervous, so I guess I'm more open to this sort of thing. As a side note, I'm still mildly surprised that the powers-that-be did not laugh off the Iraqi prison photos as fakes. Jack Smith ---------------------------------------------- Flight 175 , 3-20-04, by Sali al Ioli and Luigi bin Liner ``Back in June 2003 La Vanguardia in Barcelona, Spain, published an investigative report on the plane that slammed into the South Tower. The report was a simple affair, it used the photo we see here on the left and wondered what these strange objects attached to the underside of the Flight 175 might be, and whether they were just an optical illusion. After a thorough digital image analysis by a Spanish university, the article came to the conclusion that the objects were three-dimensional in nature and could not have been caused by shadows or reflections ... The Letters to the Editor page in La Vanguardia was soon flooded with readers complaining that the article had not explained what these objects could be, but the journalists [Eduardo Martín de Pozuelo and Xavier Mas de Xaxàs] refused to comment, they were investigative journalists and it was not for them to speculate on unknowns ... Surprisingly, despite all the film taken that day before so many eye witnesses, compared to the evidence we have on the other flights, very little is known about Flight 175. Which is why, here in the Kasbah, we thought it was very important to establish Eduardo Martín de Pozuelo and Xavier Mas de Xaxàs' article as a reliable reference ... The digital analysis done by a Spanish university came to the conclusion that what we see here was no mere play of shadows as the plane banks into the South Tower, but physical objects. Obviously, no known commercial airport would have cleared a plane looking like this for take off. Not so obvious, perhaps, is fact that you don't just bolt on a few objects to the exterior of a plane and happily fly off again--aerodynamic drag alone would shear off any external appendages (even before reaching 500 mph) leaving behind a gaping hole. Commercial airliners are built as light as possible and consist of a structural airframe covered by a "soft" metallic skin. Before attaching anything to the outside of an airliner you would have to reinforce the interior with beams and mountings added to the airframe, producing what are known as "hard points" in military planes, where external munitions, missiles and extra fuel tanks can be safely hung. You don't modify an airliner like this in one morning. --------------------------- www.amics21.com/911/flight175/first.html NEW YORK, 9 A.M. 11 September 2001 A "small plane" is reported to have just crashed into the North Tower of the World Trade Center [AFPS, 10/23/01]. The news media kick into action: cameras are set up, helicopters and light aircraft take off for a better view ... The first plane, though, was a ploy. In a carefully orchestrated strategy, it was merely used as bait, drawing our attention to was about to occur, and so guaranteeing a full-blown Hollywoodesque drama with all the ratings and world-wide video sales. Welcome to the 21st Century. On cue, a few minutes later, the second plane, a United Airlines, Boeing 767-200, [Flight 175] comes into view, flying low and heading for the Twin Towers. What was that? What happened? Where was our mighty Air Force? All valid and essential questions, which the 9/11 Commission, eventually headed by Thomas H. Kean, the former Republican governor of New Jersey, was asked to look into ... 1. Who overrode Flight 175's onboard computers? Modern planes are complicated creatures that incorporate a whole slew of sophisticated technology. First among them, flight computers that instantly override any accidental brusque manoeuvres; you don't want your business-class customers slopping their Dom Perignon over their immaculate suits, just because the pilot sneezes at the wrong moment. The banking manoeuvre we see here, just as flight 175 is about to slam into the South Tower, would have been overridden by the onboard flight computer. So somebody must have previously overridden the flight computers themselves. Now, you don't override the onboard computers by physically switching them off or cutting a wire, as you'd lose control of the hydraulics and plummet like a stone. Hey, this is no lawnmower you're flying. You have to reload the software, which according to Boeing's own documentation takes a good 90 mins. just for the Integrated Display Units alone. United Airlines Flight 175 took off from Boston at 8:14 a.m. to hit the South Tower at 9:03 a.m., meaning that the software for flying the plane at close to Mach speed would have had to have been installed before take off! Similarly odd behaviour was observed with Flight 77, which slammed into the Pentagon. Danielle O'Brien, air-traffic controller at Dulles airport, in Washington D.C., told ABC News, "At a speed of about 500 miles an hour, the plane was headed straight for what is known as P-56, protected air space 56, which covers the White House and the Capitol". As far as she and her colleagues were concerned, there was no doubt, "The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane," says O'Brien. "You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe." [ABC, 10/24/01] Now I can't remember any records of Mohammad Atta being commended for his exceptional flying skills while at Florida flying schools. If you ask me the most outlandish and unsubstantiated conspiracy theory of them all is the official story: That some nutter in a cave in Afghanistan, on dialysis, masterminded a bunch of loser Saudi playboys to coordinate four attacks by air on mainland US targets, with military precision. With no need of flight manuals, which were thoughtfully left behind in the rented car back at the airport WITH A COPY OF THE KORAN! [Miami Herald, 9/22/01] ... 2. ... This is not a Boeing 767-200 ... This is the long-fuselage version of the 767. The 767-200 is a short, stubby-nose plane ... Um... OK. So the planes were switched. Why go to all that trouble? ... --------------------------- Flight 175. The Wrong Plane NASA's 'Flying Lab' ARIES, a converted Boeing 757-200, is reputed to have also taken off and landed without a pilot at the helm a few times ... Comparing the profile of the Boeing that slammed into the South Tower with a 767-200, it seems that this was not the same plane that left Logan airport that fateful morning. It was switched. And if the plane was switched, then the "pilots" were switched too. To judge by the strange manoeuvres before it hit, the flight computers must have been tampered with. The plane banked sharply into the South Tower because it was about to miss it, even the best of pilots would have had a job hitting such a small target at 500 m.p.h. ... Forget mucking about on a Cessna for a few hours. Autopilot and a beacon would have done the job, but then it would have gone straight in like a rudimentary guided missile. Was this more than simple tampering with the flight computers? Could this "unidentified" plane have been controlled remotely from the ground? Is the "taking over of distressed aircraft and landing them" not a distant fantasy? ... According to Andreas von Bülow, the former German Secretary of Defence, it seems that, already back in the nineties, "a major European flag carrier" was so alarmed when it discovered that the flight control systems on its aircraft could be taken over electronically from the ground, that it "completely stripped the American flight control computers out of its entire fleet, and replaced them with a home grown version". [Tagesspiegel, Berlin, January 13th 2002]. It appears that this "major European flag carrier" was none other than Lufthansa, the German national airline ... One fine day in 2002, ... a group of military and civilian US pilots, under the chairmanship of Colonel Donn de Grand Pré, set up an independent inquiry into the events of September 11th, and came to the conclusion that "the flight crews of the four passenger airliners, involved in the September 11th tragedy, had no control over their aircraft." (...) An expert witness confirmed that "airliners could be controlled by electro-magnetic pulse or radio frequency instrumentation from command and control platforms based either in the air or at ground level." Colonel Donn de Grand Pré's inquiry concluded: "They [the pilots] had not attempted any sudden changes in flight path or nose-dive procedures - which led him to believe that they had no control over their aircraft." [September 11 - US Government accused. The News, Portugal's Weekend Newspaper in English, 03/08/2002 (well worth the read)]. The article also goes on to lament the lack of investigative zeal on the subject by mainstream American ... news media ... Fine ..., but do we have any conclusive visual proof that Flight 175 had been tampered with? I'm glad you asked that... --------------------------- Odd Bumps Of course, the biggest mystery of all is: What ... is that on the underside of Flight 175? [see fuss.gif at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=125&topic_id=7924#7993 ] Like most people, what with the Shock and Awe of 9/11, we didn't notice these strange "bumps" as the film was played back to us time and again. Not till we looked at the stills of that frightening morning. In fact, not till La Vanguardia in Barcelona, Spain, published an investigation by Eduardo Martín de Pozuelo and Xavier Mas de Xaxàs last summer [2003] ... And it's not any freak of photography, because wherever you look at it from, there always seems to be something there. The underbelly of a 767 should be smooth and, when the sun shines on it, it should show a straight line, not what seems to be two clearly distinct tube-like objects, as it does here ... What it is, of course, cannot be deduced from the photos. However, this plane, whatever it is, could not have taken off from Logan Airport in the condition we see here. Not with a busy airport looking on. Nor is it conceivable that "Terrorists" could have crawled out and placed bulky objects on the underbelly in mid-flight. Again we come to the same conclusion: the planes must have been switched. (Even if it landed on an abandoned airfield somewhere, there's no way these strange forms could have been added on and still be in New York by 9 a.m.) ... --------------------------- Conclusions ... So what can we deduce from these pictures? The plane that hit the South Tower was not the same one that left Logan airport that morning. It would not have been allowed to take off if it looked anything like what hit the Tower ... So, who flew the planes? Well, certainly not someone who had only flown Cessnas a few hours. These babies were flown with military precision, as we've heard. I know some get sniffy when the possibility of flight by remote control is brought up, but I don't see anyone back at the abandoned airfield volunteering for these flights ... So what's all this got to do with me ...? Benito Mussolini: "Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of State and corporate power." The events of 9/11 were the perfect pretext for embarking on the much touted New World Order ...'' --------------------- Lets Roll! - The Missiles of September, By: Phil Jayhan ``All things seen at this site can be accomplished by you, the average person, by simply taking the footage from 911, and slowing it down ... This video footage showing the missiles has already been sold at bookstores across the Nation as 911 commemorative DVD's! It was also captured by many home VCR's from people watching the TV at home. It is part of the verifiable, historical, permanent and unerasable record of 911. Lets Roll! Those famous words. With almost those words alone, America was off to war. And in less than 10 hours after the attack of September 11th, 2001. It was little more than those words that tied the 'alleged 19 Arab' hijackers to this terrible attack upon America ... And before you knew it we had 'boots on the ground' in Afghanistan. Then in Iraq. Yet oddly, it was allegedly '19 Arabs from Saudi Arabia' that did this heinous act. Not Afghanistan or Iraq ... Did we do what was right in Afghanistan after 911? Were we right to go into war against Iraq ... Was it 19 Arab Terrorist's who even performed this crime of the century against America, the Manhattan Massacre, and were Arabs even involved at all? You might be saying; "Hunh.. What do you mean, of course it was Arab Terrorist's, everyone knows that! The TV even said so, over and over, CNN/ABC, Fox, and MSNBC all said so..." But I will show you not only good reason to discard this dusty old conspiracy theory about the evil bad muslim arabs, but also prove to you they could not have done this dastardly deed. The following video is taken from video footage of 911 and was taken by cameraplanet.com ... Can you see the orange fireball to the right of the cockpit? That's the exhaust plume/punch through of the missile that was just shot out of the undercarriage of this 'special 767'. And the white projectile traveling along the front of the plane in the video, is the missile itself. Notice the white missile disappears at the same time and place where the orange fireball appears ...'' ------------------------------- The Missiles of September - Part 2 - The Canopy/Pod, By: Phil Jayhan ... ``1. There is a missile pod, canopy, on the undercarriage of this aircraft. 2. That it shoots out a missile before impact. 3. That because of 1 & 2, it is logical and even obvious that this special 767 isn't the same 767 that took off from Bostons Logan International that morning. This is a fact. 4. That because of 1, 2 & 3, one other 'Fact' is also glaringly obvious. The 767 that took off from Bostons Logan, was switched, and that this 767 you see with a pod, and shooting a missile out, is the plane that took it's place. This occurred when the transponder of the aircraft was turned off. And that's enough. Which is the point of this website. We can all argue about the finer details of all that really took place on 911 AFTER we round up those responsible and do to them as Law prescribes. Thus the name, LetsRoll911.org! Come on people, our Nation has been hijacked, it's time to take it back! Lets Roll America! ... A few things to note: 1. The pod, undercarriage equipment is the same size, shape, and color in all the frames. 2. The Pod is far larger than the gear well doors, almost 2 1/2 times in length and covers the gear well doors as well. This problem is small and will be dealth with later. 3. This extra equipment, missile pod shows up in all the video of the day, from every angle and with all sorts of different equipment. I am aware of 5 different News Networks that captured this pod on 911. They are; CNN, ABC, Fox, Cameraplanet and the Evan Fairbanks video. So Why a Pod and a Missile? Well the simplest answer is the most direct; The Pod or Canopy was there to hide the missile and it's exhaust plume upon ignition, as much as possible. And why the Missile? To blow something up, ... Although, the purpose of the missile was not to blow up the WTC ... So what is it they wanted to blow up? And why use something that might be seen by all the news media crews at the 2nd WTC strike? And why not pack the plane with explosives instead of using a missile? I believe there to be several possibilities why they used Missiles; 1. To insure the destruction of the 767, as it was the wrong plane. 2. To Maximize loss of Life and to cut off avenues of escape for the top dwellers at the WTC at both structures, thus insuring a high loss of life and a timely world war. 3. To make a more spectacular made for TV media event; ** And in the case of the 1st World Trade Center, a missile was used because that wasn't a 767 that struck the 1st WTC. It was far smaller; Thus the missile here was used to help make a bigger footprint and make it look like a 767 hit the tower. What did they intend to blow up with the Missile? Two things chiefly; 1. The Airplane, which was not the same plane that took off from Boston's Logan, nor could it ever have even been there that morning. 2. And People. Overkill was the order of the day. High body count means the drums of war will be beaten harder and faster. 3. And lastly, as mentioned earlier, the missiles might have been employed to cut off any escape routes as well for the people above the floors hit, thus insuring their doom, and many made for TV special effects like people jumping instead of burning to death, which tend to help the War Drums beat louder and faster ... Here is the conspirators of September 11th's greatest fear; the cockpit, of the wrong plane, crashing through the destruction zone at 500 mhp! Had this cockpit and 20 or so seats behind it ever made it out of the kill zone, it would have spelled instant doom for the perpetrators of this major world crime! The 767, needed to be completely obliterated and lost in the 'destruction zone' ... ***Note: ... At this same specific time and place and moment of the 2nd plane crashing through the 2nd tower, two other, unknown, unidentified's, flew by the 2nd WTC as near to, or at supersonic speeds; One plane came screeching up the 767's backside, and another came from the exact opposite direction, approaching the 2nd WTC at near to or at supersonic speeds. Now notice how the cockpit, and the 20 or so seats behind it are torn to shreds in the following explosion, caused partly by the fuel, but mostly from the explosion of the missile. If not for this missile, it is likely this cockpit and the section behind it would have travelled far beyond the 'zone of destruction' and if not for this missile, would have survived mostly intact, thus foiling their plans, as this is not the same aircraft that took off from logan International airport that morning.'' From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 21 07:52:40 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4LEqYWw021298; Fri, 21 May 2004 07:52:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4LEqSIV021253; Fri, 21 May 2004 07:52:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 07:52:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40AE17FC.1050406@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 10:53:48 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT Let's roll References: <40A962DF.3030608@ihug.co.nz> <40AA3B9B.9030906@pobox.com> <40AA46F3.5020700@rtpatlanta.com> <200405201414.57374.rockcast@earthlink.net> <40ACF2DB.6070204@rtpatlanta.com> <40ADFCBD.67A4ADA5@centurytel.net> In-Reply-To: <40ADFCBD.67A4ADA5@centurytel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54560 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Taylor J. Smith wrote: >Um... OK. So the planes were switched. > (From a web page, not Mr. Smith's words.) If the planes were switched, where are the 65 missing souls on board Flt. 175? The remains of 14 were identified: http://www.nyjournalnews.com/newsroom/030103/a01p01wtcremains.html I suppose they were executed, chopped up, and those remains were planted in the rubble. And where is the original craft? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 21 08:03:54 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4LF3kCM021836; Fri, 21 May 2004 08:03:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4LF3e2V021811; Fri, 21 May 2004 08:03:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 08:03:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20040521101559.01fc8458@mail.lenr-canr.org> X-Sender: logs@lenr-canr.org@mail.lenr-canr.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 11:02:21 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Hybrid driving techniques Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54561 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Here is an interesting rebuttal to the article that appeared in Wired the other day: http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,63541,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_1 This says that drivers should learn how to handle hybrid cars to achieve maximum efficiency, and the techniques are a little different than they are for ordinary cars. One statement that does not appear to jibe with physics: "Toyota engineer Dave Hermance said that weather, driving conditions and driver habits can cut fuel-efficiency by up to 30 percent. Hermance said drivers who slowly roll through intersections using 'California stops' are decreasing their mileage. 'If you don't stop, you don't get the free energy of regenerative braking.'" Terry Blanton mentioned that he gets good mileage by disengaging the manual transmission while going downhill. (I assume this means he pushes in the clutch, not that he puts the car in neutral and puts both feet up on the dashboard while reading a newspaper.) I have noticed that I seem to get better mileage than most people. I think there are two reasons: 1. I do not exceed the speed limit, except when it would suicidal not to. 2. I used to ride bicycles a lot more than I drove, so my driving style still reflects that style. With a bicycle, you try to make the least amount of effort, stay in the optimum gear, reduce wind resistance, and take advantage of every hill. It is a good way to learn basic physics. A lot better than playing video games. I read that Newton's first law was not self-evident, and it did not seem natural, until people invented billiards and they made long, smooth pavements and invented the hobby-horse, an early form of a bicycle without steering. When you run, or ride on a heavy horse-drawn wheeled vehicle, or ride in a boat or ship, it seems natural to think that a body in motion will quickly come to a halt unless more energy is expended. You do not get a sense of the first law until you yourself push a wheeled vehicle over a smooth surface. People who ice skated probably got a sense of it, but I do not think skating became popular until the 17th century, the same time as Newton and hobbyhorses. People's ideas of physics derive from their everyday experiences. The caloric theory of heat seemed reasonable when nearly all heat was derived from burning fuel. It was first called into question when Rumford observed heat caused by boring cannons. (He was largely ignored -- no surprise.) Notes: Billiards evolved from outdoor games played on grass, similar to croquet, which give the impression that a body in motion will soon come to a halt. The table-top version began in the early 17th century. Some sources says hobbyhorses were not invented until the early 19th century, but I doubt it. Skating may have been invented as early as the 9th century, in Scandinavia, but it was not popular until the 17th century. It could not have been discovered by ancient people in advanced civilizations such as Egypt, where it is seldom cold enough for ice. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 21 08:08:07 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4LF7sCM023071; Fri, 21 May 2004 08:07:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4LF7qJH023017; Fri, 21 May 2004 08:07:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 08:07:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40AE1B27.50106@ihug.co.nz> Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 03:07:19 +1200 From: John Berry User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT Let's roll References: <40A962DF.3030608@ihug.co.nz> <40AA3B9B.9030906@pobox.com> <40AA46F3.5020700@rtpatlanta.com> <200405201414.57374.rockcast@earthlink.net> <40ACF2DB.6070204@rtpatlanta.com> <40ADFCBD.67A4ADA5@centurytel.net> <40AE17FC.1050406@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: <40AE17FC.1050406@rtpatlanta.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <7eUkpD.A.lnF.IthrAB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54562 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It is curious that those flights had so few people aboard. And equally curious that so few people were in the building. (well that's largely due to the time) The WTC and the planes that crashed into it were no where near full occupancy. Rather nice of the terrorists really to be so thoughtful. Terry Blanton wrote: > Taylor J. Smith wrote: > >> Um... OK. So the planes were switched. > > > (From a web page, not Mr. Smith's words.) > > If the planes were switched, where are the 65 missing souls on board > Flt. 175? The remains of 14 were identified: > > http://www.nyjournalnews.com/newsroom/030103/a01p01wtcremains.html > > I suppose they were executed, chopped up, and those remains were > planted in the rubble. > > And where is the original craft? > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 21 09:50:14 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4LGo6Ww022065; Fri, 21 May 2004 09:50:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4LGnxbx022001; Fri, 21 May 2004 09:49:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 09:49:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40AE3387.9010601@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 12:51:19 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT Let's roll References: <40A962DF.3030608@ihug.co.nz> <40AA3B9B.9030906@pobox.com> <40AA46F3.5020700@rtpatlanta.com> <200405201414.57374.rockcast@earthlink.net> <40ACF2DB.6070204@rtpatlanta.com> <40ADFCBD.67A4ADA5@centurytel.net> <40AE17FC.1050406@rtpatlanta.com> <40AE1B27.50106@ihug.co.nz> In-Reply-To: <40AE1B27.50106@ihug.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54563 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > It is curious that those flights had so few people aboard. > And equally curious that so few people were in the building. (well > that's largely due to the time) Yeah. My sister-in-law's daughter worked high up in one of the buildings. THAT morning Jennifer had an argument with her boyfriend and was late for work. We were ~terrorfied~ as we watched the collapse. She phoned later, hysterical, but okay. Most of her coworkers were trapped above the flaming floors and died. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 21 10:40:27 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4LHeLWw005219; Fri, 21 May 2004 10:40:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4LHeFnO005156; Fri, 21 May 2004 10:40:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 10:40:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20040521133235.01fc4340@mail.lenr-canr.org> X-Sender: logs@lenr-canr.org@mail.lenr-canr.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 13:41:37 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Residual technology Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54564 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: While researching the message I just sent, I came across a nifty short history of the bicycle: http://www.jimlangley.net/ride/bicyclehistorywh.html This page happens to have some pictures that perfectly illustrate a subject I have long been interested in. It might be called "residual technology" caused by "mental latency." Here is how it works. The illustration at the top of the page shows a penny-farthing bicycle, the most popular type circa 1880. It has a large front wheel, because the rider pedals the front wheel and there are no gears. Making the wheel larger was the only way to increase mechanical advantage. Needless to say, this was dangerous. A branch caught in the front wheel spokes would catapult the rider over the front. The back wheel was made small to keep the rider close to the ground, and to lower the center of gravity. Elaborate handlebars and steering columns were eventually developed, to allow the rider to sit a little further back from the front wheel, with the legs more horizontal. This design was replaced starting in 1885 with the modern "safety" bicycle, "with a chain/rear-sprocket drive [rear-wheel drive] and tangentially-spoked, similar sized wheels." Here is an early rear wheel drive model, invented in 1879 by Lawson: http://www.jimlangley.net/ride/bhlawsonlg.jpg Note that it still has the oversized front wheel, the small rear wheel, and the elaborate complex handlebar and steering column arrangement of the late-model penny-farthing bicycle! These things served no purpose, yet they were left in the design. Lawson and his coworkers must have been skillful to build a machine like this, yet they failed to understand what they had accomplished. There are many similar examples. Early steamships had sails, for good reasons. The earliest steamships could not carry enough fuel to cross the ocean; they had to use sails. Years later, the engines were still unreliable, and a breakdown would leave the ship stranded in the middle of the ocean. Sails could be used at the same time as engines, saving a great deal of fuel. However by 1870, steam engines were reliable enough to cross oceans with confidence, and efficient enough to carry all the coal they needed for the longest journey on earth, from England to Australia. (The first ship capable of making this trip without refueling was a Great Eastern, built in 1857.) Yet for many years, even after sails were completely abandoned, many steamships and warships continued to carry very tall masts, that would only have been useful for sails. Shorter masts were still needed to lift freight from the dock into the hold. People thought of a "ship" as "something that has tall masts," and they continued to give ships tall masts even after the purpose of the mast went away. They paid a great deal of money to do this, and the ships were slowed down as they hauled the top-heavy, dead weight of the masts back and forth across the ocean. It was not a rational thing to do. Lawson apparently thought of a bicycle as "something with a large front wheel." I wrote above: "shorter masts were still needed to lift freight from the dock into the hold." People familiar with shipbuilding will probably think "gotcha! -- that isn't true either." In the 1960s as container ships were developed, shipbuilders finally realized that you can leave the masts and cranes and other freight handling equipment on the dock, and have the ship carry only the freight itself. However, in the early 20th century many small, undeveloped harbors did not have large cranes. In many routes, ships had to carry their own loading and unloading infrastructure with them. It is worth noting that the containership was not invented by shipbuilders. It was invented by a man who ran a truck and rail freight company. This is a classic case of the outsider with a better idea who does not see the limits because those limits turn out to be imaginary. If cold fusion has ever developed, from what I have heard many experts say already, I predict it will include a lot of useless residual technology. The first cold fusion generators may well include something like a 100-megawatt power plant, even though cold fusion itself will probably make such large generators obsolete. (I have often discussed the reasons, and I will not repeat them here.) One of the first use of computers was to generate reams of paper documents, that were often unread. This seems contradictory from a modern perspective. We see that one of the best uses of a computer is to replace paper. It was not until the 1980s the people began to seriously talk about the "paperless office." Paper is still very popular and worldwide consumption continues to increase, but in many applications such as inventory control or keeping track of huge amounts of data, computers have finally vanquished paper. Something like the human genome database could never have been developed with paper. Along with "residual technology" you sometimes see a similar, interesting trend in the last stages of development of an obsolescent technology. A 100-megawatt cold fusion generator might fall in this category. It might be valuable, and worth building, even if is the last gasp of large-scale power generation. Sometimes, obsolescent technology should be built, to fill in the gaps before the new technology can be brought on line, or for a niche application. That is why people still benefit from wood-burning stoves, and even coal-fired railroad trains. IBM still makes mainframe computers, even though the cost per CPU cycle is higher than the desktop computer. Not only is obsolescent technology cost effective sometimes, but in some cases, as the new technology is developed, it gives a boost to the older technology, and briefly rejuvenates it. The most beautiful example of this were the clipper ships, that were created during the brief, final flowering of sailing ship technology in the 1850s and 60s. They were among the most hauntingly beautiful utilitarian objects ever created. Some, such as "Cutty Sark" have been preserved I think mainly because they are so wonderful to look at. No one in his right mind would want to cross an ocean on one. This is not just the modern impression, or my impression. The people at the time saw something special about these ships. Before and after the brief age of the clipper ships, most ships had dull, utilitarian names, such as "The Henry J. Finch" or, today, the oil tanker "The Condoleezza Rice." At best they would be a little more inspiring, something like: "Pride of St. Louis." But when the dour, businessmen shipbuilders saw the clipper ships, they were inspired to give them haunting, poetic, sometimes inscrutable names: "Cutty Sark," "Flying Cloud" "Mermerus" "Thermopylae" "Hurricane" "Phantom" "Sea Witch" (Such names must have bothered sailors, who were, and still are I suppose, superstitious people.) Where did this burst of inspiration come from? Was it the final flowering of 2000 years of sailing? Probably not. From what I have read, it was mainly triggered by the application of modern physics and advanced shipbuilding techniques, that were being developed to meet the need for steamships. In other words, it was largely a response to competition by steamships. In a similar way, cold fusion may bring about the final renaissance of internal combustion engine technology and perhaps even windmills, as engineers scramble to make their products less polluting and more efficient in a competition they must ultimately lose. The brightest, safest and most efficient forms of gas-lighting were invented *after* 1879, in a competitive response to Edison's electric lightbulb. After the 1860s, sailing ships were still built, but the designs mainly reverted back to the earlier, slower, broad hulled freight hauling types. The passenger trade went to steamships, and even the fastest sailing ship soon fell behind steamship performance. There was no longer any need for the low-capacity, fast "extreme clipper." Ships of the older design lingered for decades, well into the 20th century. In the 1930s, during a freight run from New York to Caracas, my father's steamship came upon one of the last full-rigged sailing ships on an Atlantic trade run. The captain slowed down, and steered in a long, broad, slow circle around the sailing ship. The crew came from belowdecks to have a look, and take photos. No doubt the captain was a middle-aged man, nostalgic for the days when the wharves were full of such ships. Let us hope that in fifty years, nostalgic old geezers will drive their CF cars to a weekend "Olde Tyme" festival to look at, listen to, and smell a few lovingly preserved internal combustion engine vehicles and generators, the way I might drive out to see a steam-powered threshing machine at a county fair. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 21 11:05:20 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4LI5FWw013014; Fri, 21 May 2004 11:05:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4LI5DeB012996; Fri, 21 May 2004 11:05:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 11:05:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40AE4523.2030707@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 14:06:27 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hybrid driving techniques References: <6.0.3.0.2.20040521101559.01fc8458@mail.lenr-canr.org> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040521101559.01fc8458@mail.lenr-canr.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54565 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > "Toyota engineer Dave Hermance said that weather, driving conditions > and driver habits can cut fuel-efficiency by up to 30 percent. > Hermance said drivers who slowly roll through intersections using > 'California stops' are decreasing their mileage. 'If you don't stop, > you don't get the free energy of regenerative braking.'" Hence Prius EPA ratings of 60 mpg city/55mpg highway. I, too, am having a problem with this. > Terry Blanton mentioned that he gets good mileage by disengaging the > manual transmission while going downhill. (I assume this means he > pushes in the clutch, not that he puts the car in neutral and puts > both feet up on the dashboard while reading a newspaper.) Actually, while watching the news on my LCD TV. I always keep one foot on the floorboard for emergency braking. But, no I do not use the clutch, since that method wears the thrust bearing. With a synchronous manual transmission, all you have to do is let off the accelerator, and, at the right moment of torque reversal, simply slide the gearshift into neutral. BTW, with practice, you can engage the gears by revving the engine and sliding the gearshift into gear at the right moment . . . ZEN synchronization. Become ONE with the CAR. Good to see you feeling better, Jed. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 21 11:40:36 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4LIeSCM021499; Fri, 21 May 2004 11:40:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4LIeOtL021479; Fri, 21 May 2004 11:40:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 11:40:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: "Johnson, Steven" To: "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" Cc: "Johnson, Steven" Subject: RE: Residual technology Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 13:40:17 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-PMX-Version: 4.6.0.99824, Antispam-Core: 4.6.0.99824, Antispam-Data: 2004.5.21.101396 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54566 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell@mindspring.com] > Sent: Friday, May 21, 2004 12:42 PM > To: vortex-L@eskimo.com > Subject: Residual technology Hello Jed ... How refreshing. > After the 1860s, sailing ships were still built, but the designs mainly > reverted back to the earlier, slower, broad hulled freight hauling types. > The passenger trade went to steamships, and even the fastest sailing ship > soon fell behind steamship performance. There was no longer any need for > the low-capacity, fast "extreme clipper." Ships of the older design > lingered for decades, well into the 20th century. In the 1930s, during a > freight run from New York to Caracas, my father's steamship came upon one > of the last full-rigged sailing ships on an Atlantic trade run. The captain > slowed down, and steered in a long, broad, slow circle around the sailing > ship. The crew came from belowdecks to have a look, and take photos. No > doubt the captain was a middle-aged man, nostalgic for the days when the > wharves were full of such ships. Let us hope that in fifty years, nostalgic > old geezers will drive their CF cars to a weekend "Olde Tyme" festival to > look at, listen to, and smell a few lovingly preserved internal combustion > engine vehicles and generators, the way I might drive out to see a steam- > powered threshing machine at a county fair. > > - Jed I had a lot of fun reading your essay. I think there is a lot to what you have touched on here. As an artist I have often attempted to visualize some of the very concepts you have written about such as in the following digital work created earlier this year, titled "Sun Set Sail": http://www.zazzle.com/contributors/products/product/product.asp?cid=23831573 8297291575&caching=on&product%5Fid=228658248263191926&index=4 While we hope that technology will continue to evolve to greater heights I suspect certain technologies have already reached a state of perfection. (Hit the "SUPER" button to see a larger version of the painting.) I have also tried to visualize in what ways a civilization might transform itself into when alternative forms of energy such as CF become a reality, freeing it's citizens from "the grid". The following digital painting titled, "Emerald Sunset" is one of those personal interpretations, even though it is obvious that this scene is not a depiction of a location on our planet. (Perhaps Titan within another thousand years or so! ;-) http://www.zazzle.com/contributors/products/product/product.asp?cid=23831573 8297291575&caching=on&product%5Fid=228173670377659331&index=2 Unfortunately, even if you hit the "SUPER" button to get a larger image it will be difficult for the observer to see that there are tiny buildings nestled in the islands in the foreground. (A large print, however, shows them clearly) One of the points I was trying to make in this painting is that when we are free to generate all the power we need anywhere on the planet civilization can take itself anywhere and not have to worry about running a very long extension chord to the nearest power plant. Of course, Jed, I know you have already harped on this very concept not all that long ago within vortex, and I couldn't agree more. This shameless mercenary plug was brought to you by www.OrionWorks.com in association with zazzle.com a nifty web site that allows artists (like me) to sell their works in the form of greeting cards, T-Shirts, and large posters. And now, back to our regular sponsors. Steven Vincent Johnson, A 51 year old "geezer" www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 21 11:46:41 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4LIkQCM023389; Fri, 21 May 2004 11:46:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4LIkOH4023361; Fri, 21 May 2004 11:46:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 11:46:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: "Johnson, Steven" To: "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Residual technology Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 13:46:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-PMX-Version: 4.6.0.99824, Antispam-Core: 4.6.0.99824, Antispam-Data: 2004.5.21.101396 Resent-Message-ID: <8D6fgB.A.8sF._5krAB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54567 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Unfortunately, it looks like my email client hacked my two links into two distinct lines due to their length. You'll have to cut and paste them back together in order to get to the actual images. Sorry! Ain't "technology" wonderful! Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 21 14:15:21 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4LLFFWw001035; Fri, 21 May 2004 14:15:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4LLFCpc001011; Fri, 21 May 2004 14:15:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 14:15:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220045521211654270@ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l@eskimo.com" Subject: FW: WHAT'S NEW Friday, May 21, 2004 Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 14:16:54 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d886b8c0e5f5d52ecc66baba98f3d697e993fe5b2b5bb10998350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54568 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: What's New > To: Akira Kawasaki Date: 5/21/2004 1:01:37 PM Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, May 21, 2004 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 21 May 04 Washington, DC 1. SPACE RACE: HOW FAR IS IT TO THE MOON -- MEASURED IN YUAN? China launched taikonaut Yang Liwei into Earth orbit on 15 Oct 03, becoming only the third nation to join that exclusive club http://www.aps.org/WN/WN03/wn101703.cfm. In the jingoism that followed there was talk of space stations, Moon bases and trips to Mars. Even in the U.S., President Bush rose to the challenge http://www.aps.org/WN/WN04/wn011604.cfm announcing a return to the Moon and on to Mars. But now, Wang Yongzhi, chief designer of China's space program, reveals that China's manned space program has already cost 18 billion yuan ($2.18B). The Moon is just too many yuan away; China now plans to build a space station of their own in 15 years. According to a Reuters story out of Beijing, China had expected an invitation to join the International Space Station. We have a golden opportunity to make amends for having blackballed China on the ISS, while at the same time removing the greatest single obstacle to U.S. space exploration: just give the ISS to China. Let the ISS paralyze China's space program. 2. HOMEOPATHY: DEMONSTRATORS IN BELGIUM RESORT TO MASS SUICIDE. A Special Report in the current issue of Skeptical Inquirer looks into the ultimate protest by a group of skeptics. They objected to a decision by the major health insurance companies in Belgium to begin covering the costs of homeopathy in response to popular demand. Depressed by the willingness of the insurance companies to encourage quackery, the 23 skeptics resigned themselves to committing mass suicide by drinking a cocktail of lethal poisons including arsenic, snake venom and deadly nightshade. To the horror of the homeopathists, they even increased the potency in true homeopathic fashion by preparing a 30C solution of the cocktail. That means the cocktail was diluted one part per hundred and shaken, which was then repeated sequentially, 30 times. All newspapers and TV stations were invited to watch the death agonies of the 23 deranged suicides, who included a number of prominent citizens and professors of medicine, "and a few normal people armed only with common sense." The media coverage was excellent, but the suicide attempt was a failure. 3. SHUTTLE: RETURN-TO-FLIGHT IS RUNNING A LITTLE BEHIND SCHEDULE. NASA originally hoped to fly the shuttle again by March '04, and to conduct as many as four missions in 2004. Now they hope to fly by March '05. They don't yet have a system to inspect and repair the shuttle's heat protection system. It's like trying to see if your bald spot is growing. As a last resort they may have to rely on spacewalks for inspection, or resupply the ISS using robotic shuttle missions. The robots always win in the end. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 22 00:18:33 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4M7IQWw031549; Sat, 22 May 2004 00:18:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4M7I3j6031444; Sat, 22 May 2004 00:18:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 00:18:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <40AE0C0D.1060907@rtpatlanta.com> References: <20040513163844.47757.qmail@web80403.mail.yahoo.com> <40A3C80D.2090309@pobox.com> <40A3F565.8010406@rtpatlanta.com> <40A43694.2010208@pobox.com> <40AE0C0D.1060907@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 02:19:58 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: OT - more 'semi-official' lies? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <4ENOO.A.QrH.r6vrAB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54569 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >thomas malloy wrote: > >The last chicken that I beheaded sprayed blood all over the place, >it's not like it turned the place into a slaughter house. > > >Okay, we need details here. Did you whack, saw, or wring? I sliced it off. It seems to me that the men who sliced Nick Berg's head off could at least have had the decency to sharpen up the knife. The Hebrews had a command that the sacrifice was to have it's throat cut so quickly that it didn't kick. That was audiably not the case in the Berg sacrifice. This is understandable, because the Islamists don't worship the same god that we do. I noted with interest the arrest of several of the men involved in the incident, so much for it being staged. With regards to the Let's roll posting. I don't see what's so complex about torpedoing an airborne plane into the WTC. Talk about hitting the broad side of a barn! Ditto for the Pentagon. The Islamists could have ameliorated most of the negative reaction by demonstrating that the Fundamentalist Islamists were not acting in their name. The silence from the moderate Moslems has been deafening. In the opinion of Craig Winn, www.prophetofdoom.net , and myself, the Fundamentalist Islamists have the correct interpretation of the Q'uran and the Hadath. As Dennis Prager, www.dennisprager.com , is fond of pointing out, can you imagine the outcry from Christians or Jews if a renegade sect of either religion started sacrificing people as a part of their religious celebrations? The bottom line is, Orcums Razor, the simplest explanation is most likely the correct one. There is no way that a renegade group within our governments could have carried this war as far as it has gone, with out the contributions of the Islamists. The simplest explanation is, this is a civilizational war, they mean to conquer and convert us, or die in the attempt! Wishing you all a Sabbath Day's Peace, From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 22 04:23:05 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4MBN1Ww011017; Sat, 22 May 2004 04:23:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4MBMxPI011002; Sat, 22 May 2004 04:22:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 04:22:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40AF3818.4090902@ihug.co.nz> Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 23:23:04 +1200 From: John Berry User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT - more 'semi-official' lies? References: <20040513163844.47757.qmail@web80403.mail.yahoo.com> <40A3C80D.2090309@pobox.com> <40A3F565.8010406@rtpatlanta.com> <40A43694.2010208@pobox.com> <40AE0C0D.1060907@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <00rqXC.A.2rC.TgzrAB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54570 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > It seems to me that the men who sliced Nick Berg's head off could at > least have had the decency to sharpen up the knife. The Hebrews had a > command that the sacrifice was to have it's throat cut so quickly that > it didn't kick. That was audiably not the case in the Berg sacrifice. > This is understandable, because the Islamists don't worship the same > god that we do. I noted with interest the arrest of several of the men > involved in the incident, so much for it being staged. And we all know that when someone is accused of murder they really did it right? > The bottom line is, Orcums Razor Ockham is prefered, Occams is acceptible but Orcums?? You can't even spell it let alone correctly apply it. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 22 10:39:31 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4MHdJCM028452; Sat, 22 May 2004 10:39:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4MHd6LO028359; Sat, 22 May 2004 10:39:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 10:39:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20040522103843.056e7d60@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 10:44:57 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Subject: Re: Gene, gone but not forgotten In-Reply-To: <40AD1FDB.48359AA@ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54571 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Ed.. Thanks so much for this...as is often the case, I find richness and depth in your thoughts and words that are most inspiring. Steve At 02:15 PM 5/20/2004 -0700, you wrote: >Death is such a nuisance. It makes our friends sad and our enemies >gloat. Besides, each of us is reminded that we might be next. What is >worse, the timing is seldom right. Of the many reasons to mourn >Gene's leaving, this one gives me the most grief. Here was a man who >reminded the ignorant and corrupt of their limitations and who, as is >always the case, was made to pay a price. He stubbornly paid this >price for years, all the while reminding the narrow thinking that no >matter how they used their fame and power, he was not going to give >up. Gradually, his message was shown to be correct. Then, just when >the deserved reward was almost in hand, a brutal and ignorant man >wanting a few dollars denies this reward to Gene. Unfortunately, this >same thing happens all too often to each of us, not by death but by >the ignorance and selfishness of economic and political leaders. >While mourning Gene, I suggest you think about mourning what each of >us is losing by the events of these days. Gene is off to another >adventure, while we are stuck with this one. > >Ed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 22 21:52:28 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4N4qPBW013035; Sat, 22 May 2004 21:52:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4N4qN4p013014; Sat, 22 May 2004 21:52:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 21:52:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <40AF3818.4090902@ihug.co.nz> References: <20040513163844.47757.qmail@web80403.mail.yahoo.com> <40A3C80D.2090309@pobox.com> <40A3F565.8010406@rtpatlanta.com> <40A43694.2010208@pobox.com> <40AE0C0D.1060907@rtpatlanta.com> <40AF3818.4090902@ihug.co.nz> Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 23:42:38 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: OT - more 'semi-official' lies? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54572 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >thomas malloy wrote: > >It seems to me that the men who sliced Nick Berg's head off could at >least have had the decency to sharpen up the knife. The Hebrews had >a command that the sacrifice >And we all know that when someone is accused of murder they really >did it right? No, but when you take a picture of yourself doing the aforementioned act, that's basically tantamont to a confession, eh? > >>The bottom line is, Orcums Razor > >Ockham is prefered, Occams is acceptible but Orcums?? >You can't even spell it let alone correctly apply it. That's a cheap shot. You chose to address a spelling mistake and ignore the preponderance of evidence which points toward the simple explanation. Never attribute to conspiracy what can be accounted for by simple stupidity! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 23 05:17:15 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4NCH5BW000930; Sun, 23 May 2004 05:17:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4NCH3Ps000905; Sun, 23 May 2004 05:17:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 05:17:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40B0969F.3080408@ihug.co.nz> Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 00:18:39 +1200 From: John Berry User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT - more 'semi-official' lies? References: <20040513163844.47757.qmail@web80403.mail.yahoo.com> <40A3C80D.2090309@pobox.com> <40A3F565.8010406@rtpatlanta.com> <40A43694.2010208@pobox.com> <40AE0C0D.1060907@rtpatlanta.com> <40AF3818.4090902@ihug.co.nz> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54573 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: >> thomas malloy wrote: >> >> It seems to me that the men who sliced Nick Berg's head off could at >> least have had the decency to sharpen up the knife. The Hebrews had a >> command that the sacrifice > > > >> And we all know that when someone is accused of murder they really >> did it right? > > > No, but when you take a picture of yourself doing the aforementioned > act, that's basically tantamont to a confession, eh? Um, but what if you covered your face so you couldn't be identified then put your name on it? I mean wouldn't that look very suspicious? why would you cover my face? But the accent is also totally wrong. And it is known that you have an artificial leg that is known not to work very well but the video shows no sign. And one of your friends wear something against their religious beliefs. (gold ring) And it comes out at an extremely convenient time when it is clear the US military is beating prisoners to death, sodomizing them, smearing feces on them. (and worse) And what if your thin because your hungry and the guys in the tape are fat, and what if one of your friends is holding a Jewish gun when you obviously wouldn't do any such thing. And what if the guy being killed was wearing a US orange jumpsuit, and was in US custody, and they are VERY unclear as to what day they found the body (over the weekend or monday, or maybe the 11th as the video shows (tuesday)) What if you'd been killed some time before as it is claimed with (Abu Musab al-Zarqawi). But I'm sure you right, because people are never arrested or accused of things they didn't do, if that wasn't true you'd have lots of people being let off of death row because DNA tests prove they aren't guilty, and that hasn't happened right? http://www.ksg.harvard.edu/ksgpress/ksg_news/publications/alumdeathrow.html (60-70 cases overturned or reversed) http://www.thesakeofargument.com/archives/000535.html (105 apparently released due to DNA) http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=6&did=110 (not specifically DNA related but 113 exonerated) > > >> >>> The bottom line is, Orcums Razor >> >> >> Ockham is prefered, Occams is acceptible but Orcums?? >> You can't even spell it let alone correctly apply it. > > > That's a cheap shot. Sighting Ockhams razor is a cheap shot. What is more likely, that the pod, missiles and exhaust are 1: A conspiracy by the media to covertly alter images but not tell anyone? 2: some strange artifact on mpeg compression that shows from all angles and both the first and second crashes? 3: That it is the most incredible and impossible reflection ever or any other insane idea used to ignore the obvious 4: that the pod that is seen is really a pod, that the missile that is seen is really a missile, that the bright orange ball of light visible in both the first and second crashes is really the effect of the exhaust on the building? The latter is totally straight forward and sensible, and only due to the preconceived notion that anyone with the power to do that wouldn't possibly do it can it be considered unlikely, but still more likely than any of the other 'possible' solutions. IGNOREance is bliss. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 23 08:44:57 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4NFigjo030512; Sun, 23 May 2004 08:44:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4NFiU7h030450; Sun, 23 May 2004 08:44:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 08:44:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003401c440dc$54529ea0$8837fea9@pacbell.net> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: On the tetravalency of carbon Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 08:40:51 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0031_01C440A1.A77E4880" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54574 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C440A1.A77E4880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The unique *tetravalency of carbon,* may offer some insight into a = future possible way of achieving high efficiency in combustion, not = necessarily overunity... but very high efficiency exceeding so-called = 'Carnot limitations,' for instance, with or without LENR. The baseline for carbon use has traditionally been heat. If you just = want heat, then burning C in air gives about 14,000 Btu per pound. Some = experimenters - the so-called Aqua-fuelers for instance, claim that by = adding electrical current at ~4000 Btu per pound equivalent - to a = carbon-arc discharge in water - then you can get about 30,000 Btus out = in the form of a mixed (explosive) gas. There is documented proof for = this now, but the evidence offered on the various websites will not be = convincing to most skeptics by any means. There is better proof of OU in = carbon-arc discharges from many PhDs like Bockris - well documented. The = Case-type CF cell which uses carbon has apparently not proven out, but = still... many of us suspect, from the totality of the evidence, that = there is something factual going on with carbon-based overunity. Here is = a deeper look into that subject. For comparison, there is approximately 20,000 BTU per pound in gasoline = (at about 8 lb. per gallon). Hydrogen has the highest energy content by = weight of any fuel - 52,000 BTU per pound - and hydrogen is responsible = for the greater energy content of gasoline over carbon, although it is = only about 14% of the content by weight. Those aquafuel figures, cited = above, would look like 'net' overunity, if they could be trusted, even = if the electricity used did require 10,000 original BTU of heat to get = the 4000 BTU equivalent of current (modern gas-fired generating plants = are 40% efficient (heat =3D> elect.). If there is any hint of OU, then = it would come from splitting water at greater than Faradaic = limitations... and some form of LENR may be involved in that, but maybe = not, or perhaps the hydrino, or perhaps just 'supra-chemistry'. Manipulating the tetravalency of carbon to give an appearance of = overunity has to do with the most stable hybridization state, sp3. Since = carbon has the electron configuration of 1s2 2s2 2p2, the valence shell = is often in a high energy "prestressed" state, a state that is a bit = unstable *even after it is filled-up.* In order to maximize stability = and reduce overall energy state, the electrons form a hybrid electronic = level sp3. This is actually a "compromise" between the 2s2 and 2p2 = levels. And therein lies the built-in potential for overunity in carbon. = That compromise hybrid level is geometrically at odds with the 'size' = demands of many donor atoms. Since the C valence shell "wants" to have a total of 8 electrons (excuse = the reliance on anthropomorphism), carbon is always desirous to pickup 4 = electrons... and oxygen is often ready to pimp them out on a temporary = basis if she can't find extra loose electrons for herself - but then = oxygen is always an uneasy madam and "wants" to control her own valency. = When oxygen sees any other suitor, she become a little 'discontented' = with the carbon arrangement, as the fit is 'uncomfortable' let us say. = Thus, in the molecule CO2 the tetravalency of carbon is in a bit of = conflict with the equally relentless electron demands of oxygen - plus = like many things in nature, carbon wants all its 4 new electrons = arranged in a perfect tetrahedron - which Oxygen will not permit. Consequently, although CO2 can give the illusion of molecular stability, = it is only illusion - as *life* on earth discovered some 4 billion years = ago. It is rather easy for living organisms, to conspire with any small = amount of external energy, even low grade heat or especially a "free = electron" in order to use that small input to separate any carbon = molecule from at least one of its oxygens, and even to split water. How? = the short answer is that the 'prestressed tetravalency' thing has = built-in geometric instability, but... it is much more complicated than = that or else we would already have lots of free-energy devices (the = 2nd-Law be damned). Carbonate is a rather amazing chameleon ion with a nominal charge of -2 = and an elemental formula of CO3*2-. It is by far the most stable and = long-lasting doubly charged ion in nature, which is not to say that it = is stable but only that it vacillates on a time scale that permits many = other reactions to occur in its presence. Any aqueous solution of carbon = dioxide will then contain a small (but free) vacillating amount of = H2CO3, carbonic acid, which dissociates to form hydronium ions and = carbonate ions. It would be a fairly strong acid if carbonic acid = existed in pure form for long enough, but the equilibrium favors carbon = dioxide slightly and so normal solutions are fairly weak, at least until = they are forced into a metastable state.=20 In biological systems, to get to this metastable state, an enzyme = efficiently catalyzes this interconversion between carbon dioxide and = carbonate ions, even at body temperature. Therefore, it is fair for us = to say that whenever you have warm, wet CO2 in agitation, carbonate ions = and hydronium ions can be engineered to be an essentially "free" = resource (no extra energy input). If you know how to use either a = catalyst or kinetic agitation (ultrasound, for instance), that is. In 1840, when town gas was still in vogue, Lord Armstrong was the first = to study the electrical charge produced as steam escaped from boilers, a = phenomenon called =91steam electricity.=92 An understanding of this = complex phenomenon appears to be instrumental in engineering efficient = hydrogen generation because it involves both on a kinetic effect (an = acoustic effect), and a pH effect (carbonic acid) and a triboelectric = effect (friction). Faraday confirmed Armstrong's findings (and today = gets most of the credit), but found that steam alone produced no = electricity. Here is an interesting paper, "Bubbles and Steam = Electricity" by T.V. Prevenslik http://www.esdjournal.com/techpapr/prevens/steam.pdf The point of all this is that decent amounts of hydrogen can be freed = from water (steam) and CO2 merely by kinetics - it doesn't necessarily = require electrochemistry. Added current will help increase the rate of = splitting but is not required for a fair amount of hydrogen. This = kinetic 'free-energy' methodology is probably also seen in nature - in = providing some of the enormous energy released in hurricanes, for = instance. Look at these results: "Intensification of Water Electrolysis in a = Centrifugal Field" Cheng and Scott, Department of Chemical and Process = Engineering, University of Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom, = available online: http://www.electrochem.org/publications/jes/samples/JES-D172_1.pdf "The intensification of the production of hydrogen and oxygen, i.e., = water electrolysis, was achieved in a centrifugal acceleration field. = This was demonstrated by measuring the cell voltage and the electrode = potentials for cells operated with and without centrifugal fields, as a = function of current density."=20 BTW, this was a modest centrifugal field in this experiment, ~100 G... = but nature (or automotive exhaust) can provide G fields a hundred times = more intense than those used in this study. IOW when you combine and reconsider all of this information together, it = is clear that *kinetics alone* will do a large part of the = water-splitting job for you as long as you have a minimum amount of = carbon - this will be referred to as non-Faradaic water-splitting, not = just thermal but enhanced-thermochemical. But... as always the skeptic = will be quick to counter, "but where is this excess hydrogen really = coming from?"... and don't give me some hat-trick double-speak about = tetra-whatever...=20 I would counter that we may not need to invoke "free-energy" at all ... = just more efficient use of an inefficient resource, like combustion. = So-called "Carnot limitations" are somewhat of a kludge - which is only = relevant to a baseline situation - and irrelevant to a total system. I = believe that it will be possible (very soon), to exceed these = limitations with ICE systems, using hydrogen recovered from automotive = exhaust, for instance. It wouldn't totally eliminate carbon, of course, = but most of us would be partially satisfied with a short term decrease = in CO2 made possible by an large increase in fuel efficiency from 20-25% = to 40-45%... no? Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C440A1.A77E4880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The unique *tetravalency of carbon,* may offer some insight into a = future=20 possible way of achieving high efficiency in combustion, not necessarily = overunity... but very high efficiency exceeding so-called 'Carnot = limitations,'=20 for instance, with or without LENR.

The baseline for carbon = use has=20 traditionally been heat. If you just want heat, then burning C in = air gives=20 about 14,000 Btu per pound. Some experimenters - the so-called = Aqua-fuelers for=20 instance, claim that by adding electrical current at ~4000 Btu per = pound=20 equivalent - to a carbon-arc discharge in water - then you can = get=20 about 30,000 Btus out in the form of a mixed (explosive) gas. There is=20 documented proof for this now, but the evidence offered on the various = websites=20 will not be convincing to most skeptics by any means. There is = better proof=20 of OU in carbon-arc discharges from many PhDs like Bockris - well = documented.=20 The Case-type CF cell which uses carbon has apparently not proven out, = but=20 still... many of us suspect, from the totality of the evidence, =  that there=20 is something factual going on with carbon-based overunity. Here = is a deeper=20 look into that subject.
 
For comparison, there is approximately 20,000 BTU per pound in = gasoline (at=20 about 8 lb. per gallon). Hydrogen has the highest energy content by = weight of=20 any fuel - 52,000 BTU per pound - and hydrogen is responsible for the = greater=20 energy content of gasoline over carbon, although it is only about 14% of = the=20 content by weight. Those aquafuel figures, cited above, would look=20 like 'net' overunity, if they could be trusted, even if the=20 electricity used did require 10,000 original BTU of heat to get the 4000 = BTU=20 equivalent of current (modern gas-fired generating plants are 40% = efficient=20 (heat =3D> elect.). If there is any hint of OU, then it would = come from=20 splitting water at greater than Faradaic limitations... and some form of = LENR=20 may be involved in that, but maybe not, or perhaps the hydrino, or = perhaps just=20 'supra-chemistry'.

Manipulating the tetravalency of carbon to give an appearance = of=20 overunity has to do with the most stable hybridization state, sp3. Since = carbon=20 has the electron configuration of 1s2 2s2 2p2, the valence shell is = often in a=20 high energy "prestressed" state, a state that is a bit unstable *even = after it=20 is filled-up.* In order to maximize stability and reduce overall energy = state,=20 the electrons form a hybrid electronic level sp3. This is actually a=20 "compromise" between the 2s2 and 2p2 levels. And therein lies the = built-in=20 potential for overunity in carbon. That compromise hybrid level is = geometrically=20 at odds  with the 'size' demands of many donor atoms.
 
Since the C valence shell "wants" to have a total of 8 electrons = (excuse=20 the reliance on anthropomorphism), carbon is always desirous = to pickup 4=20 electrons... and oxygen is often ready to pimp them out on a temporary = basis if=20 she can't find extra loose electrons for herself - but then oxygen=20 is always an uneasy madam and "wants" to control her own = valency. When=20 oxygen sees any other suitor, she become a little 'discontented' with = the carbon=20 arrangement, as the fit is 'uncomfortable' let us say. Thus, in the = molecule CO2=20 the tetravalency of carbon is in a bit of conflict with the equally = relentless=20 electron demands of oxygen - plus like many things in nature,=20 carbon wants all its 4 new electrons arranged in a perfect = tetrahedron -=20 which Oxygen will not permit.
 
Consequently, although CO2 can give the illusion of molecular = stability, it=20 is only illusion - as *life* on earth discovered some 4 billion years = ago. It is=20 rather easy for living organisms, to conspire with any small amount of = external=20 energy, even low grade heat or especially a "free electron" in order to = use that=20 small input to separate any carbon molecule from at least one of its = oxygens,=20 and even to split water. How? the short answer is that the 'prestressed=20 tetravalency' thing has built-in geometric instability, but... it is = much more=20 complicated than that or else we would already have lots of = free-energy=20 devices (the 2nd-Law be damned).

Carbonate is a rather amazing = chameleon=20 ion with a nominal charge of -2 and an elemental formula of CO3*2-. It = is by far=20 the most stable and long-lasting doubly charged ion in nature, which is = not to=20 say that it is stable but only that it vacillates on a time scale that = permits=20 many other reactions to occur in its presence. Any aqueous solution of = carbon=20 dioxide will then contain a small (but free) vacillating amount of = H2CO3,=20 carbonic acid, which dissociates to form hydronium ions and carbonate = ions. It=20 would be a fairly strong acid if carbonic acid existed in pure form for = long=20 enough, but the equilibrium favors carbon dioxide slightly and so normal = solutions are fairly weak, at least until they are forced into a = metastable=20 state.
 
In biological systems, to get to this metastable state, an enzyme=20 efficiently catalyzes this interconversion between carbon dioxide and = carbonate=20 ions, even at body temperature. Therefore, it is fair for us to say that = whenever you have warm, wet CO2 in agitation, carbonate ions and = hydronium ions=20 can be engineered to be an essentially "free" resource (no extra energy = input).=20 If you know how to use either a catalyst or kinetic agitation = (ultrasound, for=20 instance), that is.
 
In 1840, when town gas was still in vogue, Lord Armstrong was the = first to=20 study the electrical charge produced as steam escaped from boilers, a = phenomenon=20 called =91steam electricity.=92 An understanding of this complex = phenomenon appears=20 to be instrumental in engineering efficient hydrogen generation because = it=20 involves both on a kinetic effect (an acoustic effect), and a pH = effect=20 (carbonic acid) and a triboelectric effect (friction). Faraday confirmed = Armstrong's findings (and today gets most of the credit), but found that = steam=20 alone produced no electricity. Here is an interesting paper, "Bubbles = and Steam=20 Electricity" by T.V. Prevenslik
http://www.= esdjournal.com/techpapr/prevens/steam.pdf
 
The point of all this is that decent amounts of hydrogen can be = freed from=20 water (steam) and CO2 merely by kinetics - it doesn't = necessarily=20 require electrochemistry. Added current will help increase the rate of = splitting=20 but is not required for a fair amount of hydrogen. This kinetic = 'free-energy'=20 methodology is probably also seen in nature - in providing some of = the=20 enormous energy released in hurricanes, for instance.
 
Look at these results: "Intensification of Water Electrolysis in a=20 Centrifugal Field" Cheng and Scott, Department of Chemical and Process=20 Engineering, University of Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom, = available=20 online:
http://www.electrochem.org/publications/jes/samples/JES-D172_1.pdf=
"The intensification of the production of hydrogen and oxygen, = i.e., water=20 electrolysis, was achieved in a centrifugal acceleration field. This was = demonstrated by measuring the cell voltage and the electrode potentials = for=20 cells operated with and without centrifugal fields, as a function of = current=20 density."
 
BTW, this was a modest centrifugal field in this experiment, ~100 = G... but=20 nature (or automotive exhaust) can provide G fields a hundred times more = intense=20 than those used in this study.
 
IOW when you combine and reconsider all of this information = together, it is=20 clear that *kinetics alone* will do a large part of the = water-splitting job=20 for you as long as you have a minimum amount of carbon - this will be = referred=20 to as non-Faradaic water-splitting, not just thermal but=20 enhanced-thermochemical.  But... as always the skeptic will be = quick to=20 counter, "but where is this excess hydrogen really coming from?"... and = don't=20 give me some hat-trick double-speak about tetra-whatever...
 
I would counter that we may not need to invoke "free-energy" at all = ...=20 just more efficient use of an inefficient resource, like=20 combustion. So-called "Carnot limitations" are somewhat of a kludge = - which=20 is only relevant to a baseline situation - and irrelevant to a total = system. I=20 believe that it will be possible (very soon), to exceed these = limitations with=20 ICE systems, using hydrogen recovered from automotive exhaust, for = instance. It=20 wouldn't totally eliminate carbon, of course, but most of us would be = partially=20 satisfied with a short term decrease in CO2 made possible by an large = increase=20 in fuel efficiency from 20-25% to 40-45%...=20 no?

Jones
------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C440A1.A77E4880-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 23 08:56:41 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4NFuSjo002310; Sun, 23 May 2004 08:56:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4NFuQQU002278; Sun, 23 May 2004 08:56:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 08:56:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003c01c440de$004ed420$8837fea9@pacbell.net> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: New Ken Shoulders Paper Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 08:52:49 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id i4NFuOjo002253 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54575 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A new paper on "Energy Conversion From The Exotic Vacuum" is available. This paper can be downloaded from: http://www.svn.net/krscfs/ Energy Conversion From The Exotic Vacuum by Ken Shoulders and Dr. Jack Sarfatti Abstract A connection is shown between electron clusters, or EVs, and energy conversion processes yielding thermal energy in excess of the input energy used to form the electron cluster. This energy conversion process is traced to all known forms of cold fusion claims for over-unity or excess energy production. A theory of like charge binding as well as highly effective nuclear acceleration using the charge cluster is presented based on local gravity coupling arising from manipulation of the Exotic Vacuum. During the search for a highly advanced space propulsion system, Sarfatti originated a theory covering many aspects of a new physics based on manipulation of the exotic vacuum that appeared relevant to the measured energy gain arising from charge clusters, or EVs, herein called Exotic Vacuum Objects, or EVOs. This writing is the first attempt to combine theory with practice on this new frontier of both physics and engineering as applied to new energy production methods. From present observations, it appears likely that future considerations will cover not only energy production processes but totally new experimental propulsion methods as well. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 23 11:58:46 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4NIwWjo018209; Sun, 23 May 2004 11:58:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4NIwLaJ018146; Sun, 23 May 2004 11:58:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 11:58:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001801c440ef$66719e20$93c9b141@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: On the tetravalency of carbon Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 12:57:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940a4a960c540695551699967b6f1146ebd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54576 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jones Beene wrote an extensive article.... :-) But, industrial hydrogen production from Steam Reforming of Methane from gas-wells, refinery, coal-bed, anaerobic bacteria etc., is very energy efficient: 1, H2O + CH4 (1100 - 1600 F) ---> CO + 3 H2 2, CO + H2O (Iron Shift Catalyst ) ---> CO2 + H2 The overall reaction, 2 H2O + CH4 ---> CO2 + 4 H2 is Exothermic. The In Situ or Underground Coal Gasification (UCG) in deep coal beds is cheaper than mining and a lot cheaper (and energy efficient) than making Carbon Rods to get the underwater arc reaction: 2 H2O + C (underwater, white hot arc) ---> CO2 + 2 H2 http://www.coal-ucg.com/future.html "There is no doubt from the latest European trial (1992-1999) that in-situ gasification of coal seams at depths of 500 metres is technically feasible. At this depth, the operating pressure is over 50 bar and the results show that ignition under these conditions is very rapid, and that cavity growth is probably enhanced by roof collapse. The high pressure also favours the formation of methane which significantly enhances the calorific value of the product gas. A further added bonus of depth is the increase in work energy available from the higher pressure." Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 23 13:58:09 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4NKw3jo017881; Sun, 23 May 2004 13:58:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4NKvuAK017805; Sun, 23 May 2004 13:57:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 13:57:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <01de01c44108$19c4fae0$8837fea9@pacbell.net> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <001801c440ef$66719e20$93c9b141@computer> Subject: Re: On the tetravalency of carbon Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 13:54:11 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id i4NKvkjo017706 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54577 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Fred, Yes, you are correct in saying: > "The In Situ or Underground Coal Gasification (UCG) in deep coal beds is cheaper than mining and a lot cheaper (and energy efficient) than making Carbon Rods to get the underwater arc reaction" True. Let's hope that process can be perfected. But Aquafuel using carbon rods is not what I am suggesting for a shorter term, stop-gap solution. If you read between the lines, what I am suggesting in effect, is a *reversed reforming* process. Instead of reforming hydrocarbon to produce hydrogen - as the recent PNNL study advocates - and then storing and burning the hydrogen later, either in a fuel cell or converted ICE- which is only slighly more efficient than burning gasoline... there is another possibility. Surprisingly, it is looking like it is even more efficient to burn gasoline conventionally first, convert that energy to electricity at only 20-25% CE and then use the electricity to immediately convert the hot *exhaust* along with some added steam (also from waste heat) to make hydrogen *in situ*. You then would use the manufactured hydrogen to power a fuel cell or converted ICE at 40% CE. Yes, standard logic would say that you should not get more than 20% of the original heat content of the gasoline used back in the form of hydrogen. But that is way, way lower than what actually happens in practice. As mentioned in the previous post, it is clear that *kinetics alone* will do a large part of the water-splitting job for you as long as you have a minimum amount of carbon... More on that later. Ironically, if preliminary results hold up, the situation will be feasible for an integrated system to be carried onboard a gasoline fueled vehicle, but gasoline will not be necessary to directly propel the vehicle, only manufactured hydrogen... but no hydrogen will be carried onboard the vehicle, only gasoline. And the reforming will be after-the-fact rather than before. Is that confusing enough for you? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 23 19:32:22 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4O2WBjo007283; Sun, 23 May 2004 19:32:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4O2W6l1007219; Sun, 23 May 2004 19:32:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 19:32:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001301c4412e$d1aea040$5889b341@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: On the tetravalency of carbon Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 20:31:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9406da79704ff0e7c348f193c25b85055ba350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: <5CqjcB.A.pwB.m6VsAB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54578 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > > If you read between the lines, what I am suggesting in effect, is a *reversed reforming* process. > Instead of reforming hydrocarbon to produce hydrogen - as the recent PNNL study advocates - > and then storing and burning the hydrogen later, either in a fuel cell or converted ICE- which > is only slightly more efficient than burning gasoline... there is another possibility. > Well if you want to get technical an on-board cracking unit (fed to a heater with a simple metering pump) will produce Hydrogen and 90 to 100+ octane fuels. :-) Crude oil contains about 20% hydrocarbons distilling in the "gasoline range", higher boiling distillates could be used and cracked at less than the ~ 1,000 deg F exhaust manifold temperature. Regards, Frederick The hydrogen can be easily filtered and fed to a fuel cell. http://www.chemguide.co.uk/organicprops/alkanes/cracking.html "What is cracking?" "Cracking is the name given to breaking up large hydrocarbon molecules into smaller and more useful bits. This is achieved by using high pressures and temperatures without a catalyst, or lower temperatures and pressures in the presence of a catalyst." "The source of the large hydrocarbon molecules is often the naphtha fraction or the gas oil fraction from the fractional distillation of crude oil (petroleum). These fractions are obtained from the distillation process as liquids, but are re-vaporised before cracking. This is only one way in which this particular molecule might break up. The ethene and propene are important materials for making plastics or producing other organic chemicals. The octane is one of the molecules found in petrol (gasoline)." "Catalytic cracking" "Modern cracking uses zeolites as the catalyst. These are complex aluminosilicates, and are large lattices of aluminium, silicon and oxygen atoms carrying a negative charge." "The alkane is brought into contact with the catalyst at a temperature of about 500°C and moderately low pressures." From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 24 03:17:04 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4OAGxBW012863; Mon, 24 May 2004 03:16:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4OAGm4W012829; Mon, 24 May 2004 03:16:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 03:16:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040521225231.02605e18@earthlink.net> References: <6.0.0.22.2.20040521225231.02605e18@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 05:18:50 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: A 'Good One' from Mariah... Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54579 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Re: A 'Good One' from Mariah...
A 'Good One'
from Mariah:

If you're not familiar with the work of Steven Wright,
he's the famous erudite scientist who once said:
"I woke up one morning and all of my stuff had been stolen...
and replaced by exact duplicates."
 
His mind sees things differently than we do, to our amazement and amusement.
 
Here are some more of his gems:
 
1 . I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize.
 
2 . Borrow money from pessimists -- they don't expect it back.
 
3 . Half the people you know are below average.
 
4 . 99% of lawyers give the rest a bad name.
 
5 . 42.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
 
6 . A conscience is what hurts when all your other parts feel so good.
 
7 . A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory.
 
8 . If you want the rainbow, you gotta put up with the rain.
 
9 . All those who believe in psycho-kinesis, raise my hand.
 
10 . The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
 
11 . I almost had a psychic girlfriend but she left me before we met.
 
12 . OK, so what's the speed of dark?
 
13 . How do you tell when you're out of invisible ink?
 
14 . If everything seems to be going well, you have obviously overlooked something.
 
15 . Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm.
 
16 . When everything is coming your way, you're in the wrong lane.
 
17 . Ambition is a poor excuse for not having enough sense to be lazy.
 
18 . Hard work pays off in the future, laziness pays off now.
 
19 . I intend to live forever -- so far, so good.
 
20 . If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends?
 
21 . Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
 
22 . What happens if you get scared half to death twice?
 
23 . My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your
horn louder."
 
24 . Why do psychics have to ask you for your name?
 
25 . If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried.
 
26 . A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking.
 
27 . Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.
 
28 . The hardness of the butter is proportional to the softness of the bread.
 
29 . To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research.
 
30 . The problem with the gene pool is that there is no lifeguard.
 
31 The sooner you fall behind, the more time you'll have to catch up.
 
32 . The colder the x-ray table, the more of your body is required to be on it.
 
33 . Everyone has a photographic memory, some just don't have film=85
 

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 24 03:18:56 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4OAIpjo012766; Mon, 24 May 2004 03:18:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4OAIdB5012698; Mon, 24 May 2004 03:18:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 03:18:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <40B0969F.3080408@ihug.co.nz> References: <20040513163844.47757.qmail@web80403.mail.yahoo.com> <40A3C80D.2090309@pobox.com> <40A3F565.8010406@rtpatlanta.com> <40A43694.2010208@pobox.com> <40AE0C0D.1060907@rtpatlanta.com> <40AF3818.4090902@ihug.co.nz> <40B0969F.3080408@ihug.co.nz> Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 05:18:50 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: OT - more 'semi-official' lies? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54580 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >thomas malloy wrote: > >>>thomas malloy wrote: >>> >>>It seems to me that the men who sliced Nick Berg's head off could >>>at least have had the decency to sharpen up the knife. The Hebrews >>>had a command that the sacrifice >> >> >> >>>And we all know that when someone is accused of murder they really >>>did it right? >> >> >>No, but when you take a picture of yourself doing the >>aforementioned act, that's basically tantamont to a confession, eh? > >Um, but what if you covered your face so you couldn't be identified >then put your name on it? The video I saw had the faces of the executioners visible. It you have evidence to the contrary, I'm sure that the defense team for the four men arrested for the aforementioned crime. >> >> >>> >>>>The bottom line is, Orcums Razor >>> >>> >>>Ockham is prefered, Occams is acceptible but Orcums?? >>>You can't even spell it let alone correctly apply it. >> >> >>That's a cheap shot. > >Sighting Ockhams razor is a cheap shot. What is more likely, that the pod, missiles and exhaust are 1: A conspiracy by the As Jed pointed out, it was the jet fuel which started the paper, wood, plastic, and flesh on fire, the heat of which weakened the steel and brought down the building. A pod of missiles would not have done that. With the exception of two papers, the media is nauseatingly liberal, and on the side of cutting and running, or not having gotten involved in the war on terror in the first place, ditto for the the television alphabet channels with the exception for Fox. IMHO, Ockham's Razor would suggest the scenario that a group of terrorists hijacked four commercial airplanes and crashed them into four buildings, IMHO, that is the simplest explanation. With regards to your scenario, the only way that it could have happened is as a result of a massive conspiracy which managed to pull this off and hide it all from 99% of the population. If they have that kind of power and organization, we are powerless to stop them. I have a long time fascination with the Satanic Conspiracy Paradigm, in which a band of Lucifer worshipers have set up various corporations and organizations bent on establishing the New World Order, I could write a paper sighting books and websites which support this paradigm. I have largely lost interest in this A: because it makes me sound like a kook, and B: if it is true, there's nothing that can be done about it. Hugh Hewitt, www.hughhewitt.com does the evening drive slot 5 - 8 PM CST on the Salem Radio Network. He is looking for people like you to call in and argue with him. Hugh and Mrs Hewitt are on a cruise until June 03. The phone number is 800 520 1234, feel free to mention that you were discussing physics with a man named Thomas, who suggested that you call in. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 24 05:20:45 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4OCKdjo006992; Mon, 24 May 2004 05:20:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4OCKbX4006974; Mon, 24 May 2004 05:20:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 05:20:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40B1E88F.3030900@ihug.co.nz> Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 00:20:31 +1200 From: John Berry User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT - more 'semi-official' lies? References: <20040513163844.47757.qmail@web80403.mail.yahoo.com> <40A3C80D.2090309@pobox.com> <40A3F565.8010406@rtpatlanta.com> <40A43694.2010208@pobox.com> <40AE0C0D.1060907@rtpatlanta.com> <40AF3818.4090902@ihug.co.nz> <40B0969F.3080408@ihug.co.nz> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54581 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: >>> No, but when you take a picture of yourself doing the aforementioned >>> act, that's basically tantamont to a confession, eh? >> >> >> Um, but what if you covered your face so you couldn't be identified >> then put your name on it? > > > The video I saw had the faces of the executioners visible. What video did you see? While searching google news for a photo, the first/only one I found is this: http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/news_service/middle_east_full_story.asp?service_id=2020 Incidentally it is an arab news site so makes some points on the subject too. >>>>> The bottom line is, Orcums Razor >>>> >>>> Ockham is prefered, Occams is acceptible but Orcums?? >>>> You can't even spell it let alone correctly apply it. >>> >>> That's a cheap shot. >> >> Sighting Ockhams razor is a cheap shot. > > What is more likely, that the pod, missiles and exhaust are 1: A > conspiracy by the > > As Jed pointed out, it was the jet fuel which started the paper, > wood, plastic, and flesh on fire, the heat of which weakened the steel > and brought down the building. A pod of missiles would not have done > that. > > With the exception of two papers, the media is nauseatingly liberal, > and on the side of cutting and running, or not having gotten involved > in the war on terror in the first place, ditto for the the television > alphabet channels with the exception for Fox. > > IMHO, Ockham's Razor would suggest the scenario that a group of > terrorists hijacked four commercial airplanes and crashed them into > four buildings, IMHO, that is the simplest explanation. Yes, but it blatantly ignores evidence. If Ockhams Razor is the simplest explanation that forgets inconvenient evidence, then Ockhams Razor is a bad tool. I guess it is like a real razor, incorrectly applied it can be dangerous. Your applying Ockhams razor to only the first part of the problem (terrorist or conspiracy) where if applied to the whole the answer is very different. > With regards to your scenario, the only way that it could have > happened is as a result of a massive conspiracy which managed to pull > this off and hide it all from 99% of the population. If they have that > kind of power and organization, we are powerless to stop them. Indeed, honestly in your opinion, if you saw the videos from all the different angles, you saw the pod clearly, a white projectile, and the effect of the exhaust hitting the building and it wasn't at all controversial would you still say there is no pod? Let's say someone sat you down and asked you to view a video (of the same quality as the 911 videos) of an airforce plane test firing a missile and you see the missile pod and missile hit a target building, you have to view the video and decide if the video shows a pod, a missile and the orange fireball as it hits the building. Would you still question it? > I have a long time fascination with the Satanic Conspiracy Paradigm, > in which a band of Lucifer worshipers have set up various corporations > and organizations bent on establishing the New World Order, I could > write a paper sighting books and websites which support this paradigm. > I have largely lost interest in this A: because it makes me sound like > a kook, and B: if it is true, there's nothing that can be done about it. Well with that attitude. Face it, your not arguing with interlectual honestly but with preconvieved notions that stop you from possibly seeing the other side of it. That is how 'They' get away with it, those that do believe are often wanting to believe it and sometimes not very intelligent or discerning, and most of the more intelligent people wouldn't dare have a thought that is so controversal. Intelligent people are most skilled at this which is how we have relativity and other old ideas which are easily proven false. Your never going to get it, you won't let yourself. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 24 07:44:41 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4OEiVBW016754; Mon, 24 May 2004 07:44:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4OEiO8o016717; Mon, 24 May 2004 07:44:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 07:44:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: "Johnson, Steven" To: "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" Cc: "Johnson, Steven" Subject: RE: OT - more 'semi-official' lies? Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 09:46:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-PMX-Version: 4.6.0.99824, Antispam-Core: 4.6.0.99824, Antispam-Data: 2004.5.23.101441 Resent-Message-ID: <-YGJm.A.EFE.IpgsAB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54582 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: John Berry [mailto:antigrav@ihug.co.nz] > Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 7:21 AM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: OT - more 'semi-official' lies? ... > Your never going to get it, you won't let yourself. The video I viewed countless times on my TIVO box showed no pod or missile. When I suggested this (under subject line: "OT Let's roll") I was accused of having the only copy. It was suggested that I enhance my copy, presumably until I start seeing it. In other words CNN managed to feed my TIVO box the only copy of the pod-less & missile-less jet. Presumably, everyone else must have received video footage of a jet with pod and missile. I can only assume that everyone I knew, and talked to, and who shared the viewing of my uniquely altered footage conspired to keep this knowledge from me. Unfortunately, this was years ago and I don't have my unique copy of the video footage anymore. I can now be accused of having a faulty memory. I can only suggest the following: Conspiracies can be additive. Web sites abound that cater to the need for another fix. What one knows really doesn't nead validation from others. Who are you really trying to convince? Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 24 07:57:37 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4OEvTjo020007; Mon, 24 May 2004 07:57:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4OEvRbj019987; Mon, 24 May 2004 07:57:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 07:57:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20040524105710.02016980@mail.lenr-canr.org> X-Sender: logs@lenr-canr.org@mail.lenr-canr.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 10:57:35 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Nice photos of Gene Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54583 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: See: http://www.infinite-energy.com/whoarewe/gene.html - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 24 09:04:37 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4OG4PBW008496; Mon, 24 May 2004 09:04:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4OG4NOk008474; Mon, 24 May 2004 09:04:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 09:04:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20040524160604.32214.qmail@web41510.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 09:06:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Harvey Norris Subject: Kent State Univ contacted for ferrite heating demos. To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54584 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Just posting a note to vortex group here on my efforts to interest the local university on the discovery of anomalous heating of ferrites. Since we have so many calorometry (spelling in question) experts here, who wonder why excess heat can develope for a certain amount of input energy,(cold fusion) I thought it would be simple to answer this question, but so far no such experts have responded. In fact I doubt whether I will even get a responce from the KSU physics dept., which I emailed about ten of those folks the following letter; Subject: Anomalous SrFe Heating effect To: dyang@lci.kent.edu I have some small 3/8 in. wide blocks of unmagnetized SrFe, (ceramic 8). Nominally the resistance of this ferrite ceramic material is at least 8000 ohms. I have also played around with creating voltage rise by resonance from an AC converted car alternator. At around 160 volts the peices apparently start loosing resistance, and start passing appreciable current. By the time the pieces have passed 3 A, I read 21 volts enabling 3A, so the pieces are acting as if they are only 7 ohms. This 7 ohm value is also the inductive reactance value of the coils I use to create the voltage rise @ 480 hz, which is the source voltage supply that passes this amperage through the pieces. This process also works with DC, where I use two sets of full wave rectifiers across two phases of voltage rise, to eliminate most of the DC "ripple" that would be present if only one interphasal voltage rise were rectified. Since this is DC current, power factor arguments do not apply, and 63 watts, (21 volts * 3A) is being expended across the ferrite. The question I have is whether that 63 watts is enough to cause the peice to glow red hot, because thats what it does. Fusing marks are later seen on the pathway where the part formerly glowed red hot, and when the process is repeated, the pieces appear to have been "conditioned", as on start up at the designated voltage of operation; the parts instantly start to glow, whereas on the first run this takes a minute or so to achieve. My question is this, is 63 watts enough energy to make a 3/8 inch piece like this glow red hot on its conductive fused pathway? I wish to send some of these pieces to the local university for analysis. For those on teslafy list, both AC and DC ferrite glows are pictured as jpegs in the file http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/files/SP/ For any persons wishing to see this process, I am located in Streetsboro Ohio, north of Kent. I am also willing to transport the equipment for producing these effects to the university for demonstrations. I also have the necessary amount of coils to adapt this process to 60 hz, at far lower temperature regimens, as a future source of home electrical heating, and in fact plan to use this process for home heating this winter, provided those results conform to that found at 480 hz. Sincerely Harvey D Norris 330-626-4600 ===== Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 24 09:32:41 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4OGWPjo019246; Mon, 24 May 2004 09:32:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4OGWMcV019190; Mon, 24 May 2004 09:32:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 09:32:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20040524163206.66102.qmail@web41509.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 09:32:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Harvey Norris Subject: RF emission from stimulated ferrite To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54585 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Much earlier research showed that ferrite stimulated by resonant voltage rise would produce "standing waves" on a series of ferrite cylinders put into series, but pardoxically the heat release would act only on one ending of the assembled cylinders collected together. What I would soon like to do is assemble a flat version of such, sandwiched by steel rulers, and then measure the rf and heating effect. Then I will put that assembly under water, where I have a large test tube for this purpose. Will the surrounding water block the rf emmision? In any case all of these artifacts were discovered quite by accident. I was using these small ferrite blocks as "insulated spacers" for a steel ruler electrolysis cell, where the contact points were held together by rubber bands and I wished to see how the resonant choke circuit would behave when the plates were removed from the water. I was quite amazed to see that then that the heat build up across the ferrite was so high that the rubber bands melted! What all of this may lead up to is a very unconventional cell design, where the plates themselves are completely sandwiched with ferrite, and the oppsite sides of the rulers become the surface areas used for electrolysis process. Quite a very stupid design I must admit. But here we do not know whether also the rf emmision might aid the electrolysis. A lot of unknowns here... Sincerely HDN ===== Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 24 09:53:54 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4OGrijo026183; Mon, 24 May 2004 09:53:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4OGrgwK026151; Mon, 24 May 2004 09:53:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 09:53:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <1085417603.40b22883e30ec@www.cavecreek.net> Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 09:53:23 -0700 From: "Tz'Akh" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Kent State Univ contacted for ferrite heating demos. References: <20040524160604.32214.qmail@web41510.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20040524160604.32214.qmail@web41510.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.2 X-Originating-IP: 208.40.148.38 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54586 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harvey, It doesn't surprise me that you received no response - your letter is a bit of a jumble. Your letter has no introduction and hits the reader with facts 'right out of the gate.' Then after a long run of datum you have encountered you pose a question to which you require a detailed answer. You then pose a highly unspecified 'relationship' in requesting analysis of a part of your work. Then post a link to a public newsgroup for which, if they decide to register with private or falsified contact information, they can then dig through to find your pictures. Somewhere. You then propose that if they wish to see the source of everything you've presented thus far, they may drive to your home.... though yo'd be willing to travel to them if necessary. Then followed up with a bait-toss about possibilities for home heating and commercializable technology. I suspect you will find few people anywhere who would be willing to dive into that maelstrom. It is a situation that I see as common to many innovative people - difficulty communicating. I've picked your message out of the boat since I noticed it and you've included a copy of the ltter you sent. Consider this a critique from someone who has managed to get stodgy focused university scientists to listen to and explore avante garde ideas. Take a course or read a book on public speaking and communications. Or, socialize and do your best to simply convey what you're doing. Avoid trapping people; communication is two-way, and if they haven't contributed anything to the conversation in a while they probably are hoping you'll stop talking soon so they can go do something else. Write about your ideas in general/layman's terms, and then condense each full page of text into one paragraph - then write each paragraph as a single sentence. This will help hone your ideas to a state of extreme presentability, and will also filter out trade secrets or other proprietary stuff. It will also keep you from depleting your energy in dumping all the details to every person you come across. When looking for a needle in the haystack you can ask each straw of hay if they know anyone that has seen the needle - chances are it's within six degrees of seperation. When you get someone asking you about experimental design you know you're in the right area. Zak Quoting Harvey Norris : > Just posting a note to vortex group here on my efforts > to interest the local university on the discovery of > anomalous heating of ferrites. Since we have so many > calorometry (spelling in question) experts here, who > wonder why excess heat can develope for a certain > amount of input energy,(cold fusion) I thought it > would be simple to answer this question, but so far no > such experts have responded. In fact I doubt whether I > will even get a responce from the KSU physics dept., > which I emailed about ten of those folks the following > letter; > Subject: Anomalous SrFe Heating effect > To: dyang@lci.kent.edu > > I have some small 3/8 in. wide blocks of unmagnetized > SrFe, (ceramic 8). Nominally the resistance of this > ferrite ceramic material is at least 8000 ohms. I have > also played around with creating voltage rise by > resonance from an AC converted car alternator. At > around 160 volts the peices apparently start loosing > resistance, and start passing appreciable current. By > the time the pieces have passed 3 A, I read 21 volts > enabling 3A, so the pieces are acting as if they are > only 7 ohms. This 7 ohm value is also the inductive > reactance value of the coils I use to create the > voltage rise @ 480 hz, which is the source voltage > supply that passes this amperage through the pieces. > This process also works with DC, where I use two sets > of full wave rectifiers across two phases of voltage > rise, to eliminate most of the DC "ripple" that would > be present if only one interphasal voltage rise were > rectified. Since this is DC current, power factor > arguments do not apply, and 63 watts, (21 volts * 3A) > is being expended across the ferrite. The question I > have is whether that 63 watts is enough to cause the > peice to glow red hot, because thats what it does. > Fusing marks are later seen on the pathway where the > part formerly glowed red hot, and when the process is > repeated, the pieces appear to have been > "conditioned", as on start up at the designated > voltage of operation; the parts instantly start to > glow, whereas on the first run this takes a minute or > so to achieve. My question is this, is 63 watts enough > energy to make a 3/8 inch piece like this glow red hot > on its conductive fused pathway? I wish to send some > of these pieces to the local university for analysis. > > For those on teslafy list, both AC and DC ferrite > glows are pictured as jpegs in the file > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/files/SP/ > > For any persons wishing to see this process, I am > located in Streetsboro Ohio, north of Kent. I am also > willing to transport the equipment for producing these > effects to the university for demonstrations. I also > have the necessary amount of coils to adapt this > process to 60 hz, at far lower temperature regimens, > as a future source of home electrical heating, and in > fact plan to use this process for home heating this > winter, provided those results conform to that found > at 480 hz. > > Sincerely Harvey D Norris > 330-626-4600 > > > > ===== > Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/ > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 24 10:36:10 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4OHa2UI007912; Mon, 24 May 2004 10:36:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4OHZuSl007888; Mon, 24 May 2004 10:35:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 10:35:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200405241735.i4OHZqLL010838@gh-mail.centurytel.net> From: "Jim Burrows" To: Subject: RE: OT - more 'semi-official' lies? Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 10:35:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001D_01C4417A.E24A6B40" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcRBngLAMkEdRL8wSDOGCs/DbfWubwAF3IYg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54587 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C4417A.E24A6B40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "This is what you shall do: Love the earth and sun and the animals, despise riches, give alms to everyone that asks, stand up for the stupid and crazy, devote your income and labor to others, hate tyrants, argue not concerning God, have patience and indulgence toward the people, take off your hat to nothing known or unknown or to any man or number of men, go freely with powerful uneducated persons and with the young and with the mothers of families, read these leaves in the open air every season of every year of your life, re-examine all you have been told at school or church or in any book, dismiss whatever insults your own soul, and your very flesh shall be great..." Walt Whitman -----Original Message----- From: Johnson, Steven [mailto:steven.johnson@dot.state.wi.us] Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 7:46 AM To: 'vortex-l@eskimo.com' Cc: Johnson, Steven Subject: RE: OT - more 'semi-official' lies? > From: John Berry [mailto:antigrav@ihug.co.nz] > Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 7:21 AM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: OT - more 'semi-official' lies? ... > Your never going to get it, you won't let yourself. The video I viewed countless times on my TIVO box showed no pod or missile. When I suggested this (under subject line: "OT Let's roll") I was accused of having the only copy. It was suggested that I enhance my copy, presumably until I start seeing it. In other words CNN managed to feed my TIVO box the only copy of the pod-less & missile-less jet. Presumably, everyone else must have received video footage of a jet with pod and missile. I can only assume that everyone I knew, and talked to, and who shared the viewing of my uniquely altered footage conspired to keep this knowledge from me. Unfortunately, this was years ago and I don't have my unique copy of the video footage anymore. I can now be accused of having a faulty memory. I can only suggest the following: Conspiracies can be additive. Web sites abound that cater to the need for another fix. What one knows really doesn't nead validation from others. Who are you really trying to convince? Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C4417A.E24A6B40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

"This = is what you shall do: Love the earth and sun and the animals, despise riches, = give alms to everyone that asks, stand up for the stupid and crazy, devote = your income and labor to others, hate tyrants, argue not concerning God, = have patience and indulgence toward the people, take off your hat to = nothing known or unknown or to any man or number of men, go freely with powerful = uneducated persons and with the young and with the mothers of families, read = these leaves in the open air every season of every year of your life, = re-examine all you have been told at school or church or in any book, dismiss = whatever insults your own soul, and your very flesh shall be great..."
Walt Whitman

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Johnson, Steven [mailto:steven.johnson@dot.state.wi.us]
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 7:46 AM
To: 'vortex-l@eskimo.com'
Cc: Johnson, Steven
Subject: RE: OT - more 'semi-official' lies?

 

> From: John Berry = [mailto:antigrav@ihug.co.nz]

> Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 7:21 = AM

> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com

> Subject: Re: OT - more 'semi-official' = lies?

 

...

 

> Your never going to get it, you won't let = yourself.

 

The video I viewed countless times on my TIVO box showed no pod = or missile.

When I suggested this (under subject line: "OT Let's = roll") I was accused of

having the only copy. It was suggested that I enhance my copy, presumably

until I start seeing it. In other words CNN managed to feed my = TIVO box the

only copy of the pod-less & missile-less jet. Presumably, = everyone else must

have received video footage of a jet with pod and missile. I can = only assume

that everyone I knew, and talked to, and who shared the viewing = of my

uniquely altered footage conspired to keep this knowledge from = me.

 

Unfortunately, this was years ago and I don't have my unique = copy of the

video footage anymore. I can now be accused of having a faulty = memory.

 

I can only suggest the following:

 

Conspiracies can be additive. Web sites abound that cater to the = need for

another fix.

 

What one knows really doesn't nead validation from = others.

 

Who are you really trying to = convince?

 

Steven Vincent Johnson

www.OrionWorks.com

 

------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C4417A.E24A6B40-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 24 11:03:34 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4OI3SMq016146; Mon, 24 May 2004 11:03:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4OI3LhN016092; Mon, 24 May 2004 11:03:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 11:03:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200405241805.i4OI5ELL023742@gh-mail.centurytel.net> From: "Jim Burrows" To: Subject: RE: OT - more 'semi-official' lies? Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 11:05:11 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcRAggZeHu6DqxcUQdG65v34FYijDgBNvhig X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54588 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hold on you guys. We all know that any film video photograph soundtrack etc. can be manipulated beyond our capacity to detect. So an argument about this or that in the film is really irrelevant. What is terribly interesting is that the concept that our own people, raised in the ethic of America, can be thought to be so corrupt as to manufacture this "evidence". That fact that we all agree that they could is science, but the fact that we all agree that they would is terrifying. God save us all from the ethics of Diebold. Jim Burrows -----Original Message----- From: thomas malloy [mailto:temalloy@metro.lakes.com] Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 9:43 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT - more 'semi-official' lies? >thomas malloy wrote: > >It seems to me that the men who sliced Nick Berg's head off could at >least have had the decency to sharpen up the knife. The Hebrews had >a command that the sacrifice >And we all know that when someone is accused of murder they really >did it right? No, but when you take a picture of yourself doing the aforementioned act, that's basically tantamont to a confession, eh? > >>The bottom line is, Orcums Razor > >Ockham is prefered, Occams is acceptible but Orcums?? >You can't even spell it let alone correctly apply it. That's a cheap shot. You chose to address a spelling mistake and ignore the preponderance of evidence which points toward the simple explanation. Never attribute to conspiracy what can be accounted for by simple stupidity! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 24 13:51:35 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4OKpVQ9016182; Mon, 24 May 2004 13:51:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4OKpISQ016099; Mon, 24 May 2004 13:51:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 13:51:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <40B1E88F.3030900@ihug.co.nz> References: <20040513163844.47757.qmail@web80403.mail.yahoo.com> <40A3C80D.2090309@pobox.com> <40A3F565.8010406@rtpatlanta.com> <40A43694.2010208@pobox.com> <40AE0C0D.1060907@rtpatlanta.com> <40AF3818.4090902@ihug.co.nz> <40B0969F.3080408@ihug.co.nz> <40B1E88F.3030900@ihug.co.nz> Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 15:51:11 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: OT - more 'semi-official' lies? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54589 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >thomas malloy wrote: > >>>>No, but when you take a picture of yourself doing the >>>>aforementioned act, that's basically tantamont to a confession, >>>>eh? >>> >>> >>>Um, but what if you covered your face so you couldn't be >>>identified then put your name on it? >> >> >>The video I saw had the faces of the executioners visible. > > >What video did you see? >While searching google news for a photo, the first/only one I found is this: >http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/news_service/middle_east_full_story.asp?service_id=2020 > >Incidentally it is an arab news site so makes some points on the subject too. I saw a brief piece of the video which, as I recall, was broadcast. now that I think about it, the executioners could have been masked. > >>>>>>The bottom line is, Orcums Razor >>>>> >>>>>Ockham is prefered, Occams is acceptible but Orcums?? >>>>>You can't even spell it let alone correctly apply it. >>>> >>>>That's a cheap shot. >>> >>>Sighting Ockhams razor is a cheap shot. >> >>What is more likely, that the pod, missiles and exhaust are 1: A >>conspiracy by the >> >> As Jed pointed out, it was the jet fuel which started the paper, >>wood, plastic, and flesh on fire, the heat of which weakened the >>steel and brought down the building. A pod of missiles would not >>have done that. >> >>With the exception of two papers, the media is nauseatingly >>liberal, and on the side of cutting and running, or not having >>gotten involved in the war on terror in the first place, ditto for >>the the television alphabet channels with the exception for Fox. >> >>IMHO, Ockham's Razor would suggest the scenario that a group of >>terrorists hijacked four commercial airplanes and crashed them into >>four buildings, IMHO, that is the simplest explanation. > >Yes, but it blatantly ignores evidence. That may be, but the above scenario is the simplest explanation of what can be seen. >and missile hit a target building, you have to view the video and >decide if the video shows a pod, a missile and the orange fireball >as it hits the building. > >Would you still question it? Hum, I take it that you have seen a video with that chain of events. The trouble is that it's the Jet fuel that brought down the building. >believe it and sometimes not very intelligent or discerning, and >most of the more intelligent people wouldn't dare have a thought >that is so controversal. Anyone who listens to the Salem Radio Network is well aware of how educated people continue to be deluded by Liberalism. > >Intelligent people are most skilled at this which is how we have >relativity and other old ideas which are easily proven false. > >Your never going to get it, you won't let yourself. My attitude is also colored by the following: Militant Islam is determined to go to war with us, There is no reaction against it from the Arab Street, The thorn in their flesh is Israel, This is all happening as prophecized. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 24 17:12:29 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4P0CKQ9025958; Mon, 24 May 2004 17:12:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4P0CHH5025936; Mon, 24 May 2004 17:12:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 17:12:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40B29063.90607@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 20:16:35 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l Subject: Columbia Hangover Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54590 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I hope Spirit checks out that large overhand in Columbia Hills: http://marsrovers.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/136/2P138443420EFF54CAP2262R7M1.HTML Any life could have taken shelter there. http://marsrovers.nasa.gov/gallery/press/spirit/20040521a/x_pubeng_3DColumbiaHillsSouth-A136R1_br.jpg From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 24 17:26:18 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4P0QEKi013505; Mon, 24 May 2004 17:26:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4P0Q8Eq013465; Mon, 24 May 2004 17:26:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 17:26:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40B2930F.4050001@ihug.co.nz> Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 12:27:59 +1200 From: John Berry User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT - more 'semi-official' lies? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54591 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Johnson, Steven wrote: >>From: John Berry [mailto:antigrav@ihug.co.nz] >>Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 7:21 AM >>To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >>Subject: Re: OT - more 'semi-official' lies? >> >> > >... > > > >>Your never going to get it, you won't let yourself. >> >> > >The video I viewed countless times on my TIVO box showed no pod or missile. >When I suggested this (under subject line: "OT Let's roll") I was accused of >having the only copy. > Then find another copy that shows the under side but doesn't show the pod or missile. Furthermore even if yours doesn't show it (and I'd question if you were looking for a pod or missile) so what? Others do which can be proven to be originals and not faked, so even if due to angle, lighting or anything else yours doesn't it still can't disprove it. And though I'm not accusing you of lying we only have your word to go on, maybe the angle was wrong, maybe you didn't notice it, maybe the lighting or the brightness on your TV is wrong. If you are sure about this, then why don't you try and find that video again: http://www.loftninjas.org/projects/20010911/ > It was suggested that I enhance my copy, presumably >until I start seeing it. In other words CNN managed to feed my TIVO box the >only copy of the pod-less & missile-less jet. Presumably, everyone else must >have received video footage of a jet with pod and missile. I can only assume >that everyone I knew, and talked to, and who shared the viewing of my >uniquely altered footage conspired to keep this knowledge from me. > >Unfortunately, this was years ago and I don't have my unique copy of the >video footage anymore. I can now be accused of having a faulty memory. > >I can only suggest the following: > >Conspiracies can be additive. Web sites abound that cater to the need for >another fix. > >What one knows really doesn't nead validation from others. > >Who are you really trying to convince? > No one, I was trying to find just what lengths people would go to in order not to believe. Turns out the answer is almost any length. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 24 17:59:46 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4P0xfKi022244; Mon, 24 May 2004 17:59:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4P0xeMu022226; Mon, 24 May 2004 17:59:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 17:59:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40B29AD8.5030002@ihug.co.nz> Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 13:01:12 +1200 From: John Berry User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT - more 'semi-official' lies? References: <20040513163844.47757.qmail@web80403.mail.yahoo.com> <40A3C80D.2090309@pobox.com> <40A3F565.8010406@rtpatlanta.com> <40A43694.2010208@pobox.com> <40AE0C0D.1060907@rtpatlanta.com> <40AF3818.4090902@ihug.co.nz> <40B0969F.3080408@ihug.co.nz> <40B1E88F.3030900@ihug.co.nz> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54592 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: >> thomas malloy wrote: >> >>>>> No, but when you take a picture of yourself doing the >>>>> aforementioned act, that's basically tantamont to a confession, eh? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Um, but what if you covered your face so you couldn't be identified >>>> then put your name on it? >>> >>> >>> >>> The video I saw had the faces of the executioners visible. >> >> >> >> What video did you see? >> While searching google news for a photo, the first/only one I found >> is this: >> http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/news_service/middle_east_full_story.asp?service_id=2020 >> >> >> Incidentally it is an arab news site so makes some points on the >> subject too. > > > I saw a brief piece of the video which, as I recall, was broadcast. > now that I think about it, the executioners could have been masked. > >> >>>>>>> The bottom line is, Orcums Razor >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Ockham is prefered, Occams is acceptible but Orcums?? >>>>>> You can't even spell it let alone correctly apply it. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That's a cheap shot. >>>> >>>> >>>> Sighting Ockhams razor is a cheap shot. >>> >>> >>> What is more likely, that the pod, missiles and exhaust are 1: A >>> conspiracy by the >>> >>> As Jed pointed out, it was the jet fuel which started the paper, >>> wood, plastic, and flesh on fire, the heat of which weakened the >>> steel and brought down the building. A pod of missiles would not >>> have done that. >>> >>> With the exception of two papers, the media is nauseatingly liberal, >>> and on the side of cutting and running, or not having gotten >>> involved in the war on terror in the first place, ditto for the the >>> television alphabet channels with the exception for Fox. >>> >>> IMHO, Ockham's Razor would suggest the scenario that a group of >>> terrorists hijacked four commercial airplanes and crashed them into >>> four buildings, IMHO, that is the simplest explanation. >> >> >> Yes, but it blatantly ignores evidence. > > > That may be, but the above scenario is the simplest explanation of > what can be seen. Yes, but simply incorrect. Given that reasoning I think the sun is actually a large light bulb in orbit around the earth, as that is so much simpler than an inconceivably large ball of hydrogen millions of miles away powered by fusion. If you don't care if the conclusion can possibly be true it sure makes things easier. > > > >> and missile hit a target building, you have to view the video and >> decide if the video shows a pod, a missile and the orange fireball as >> it hits the building. >> >> Would you still question it? > > > Hum, I take it that you have seen a video with that chain of events. Yes, just look at the videos on the site, first a pod, then you see extra light from the missile exhaust, then a moving white projectile, then an orange fire ball (long before the fuel ignites) as projectile disappears into the building, smoke can also be seen. > The trouble is that it's the Jet fuel that brought down the building. Maybe maybe not, that's neither here nor there. So what is your answer, if it was simply a video of a routine test of a airforce plane testing a weapon system, and you saw footage just like that at www.letsroll.com but it didn't crash into a building. Now your told the plane had a pod that fired missiles at the target, you view the videos and see just that, what conclusion do you come to? What if someone came up to you and said that it doesn't show that, it's just an artifact of mpeg compression, that just happens to be visible on numerous frames and from different angles and shows the pod, the shadow dropped by the pod, the light from the missile exhaust, the missile, the smoke from the missile (admittedly this the most subjective as you would expect) the bright orange ball as the exhaust burns the the target on entry of the missile. And what if there was another video from a previous test that though very very poor in quality still shows the orange fireball? What would your conclusion be? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 24 20:02:05 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4P320Ki023678; Mon, 24 May 2004 20:02:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4P31xLR023664; Mon, 24 May 2004 20:01:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 20:01:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: Cc: Subject: RE: OT - more 'semi-official' lies? Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 21:50:54 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <40B2930F.4050001@ihug.co.nz> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54593 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The video footage that I had on my TIVO box was the CNN Video- 2nd WTC hit from battery park. Again, I saw no pod or missile. Particularly important was the fact that I did not observe any kind of a pre-explosion coming from an alleged missile that would have preceded the jet's impact into the WTC. There have already been several intelligent and rational explanations given that explain how jet fuel itself was more than adequate to complete the job, especially since the protective fire retardant insulation had been blown away from infrastructure leaving it vulnerable to structural failure. Unfortunately it doesn't appear to be productive to go into these explanations. Mr. Berry, Back in May 17 you started the thread "OT Let's roll" with the comment: "I do not wish to convince the readers of this list of anything, I simply want to know what people reactions are when faced with an uneasy truth." However by the very next day you were replying to comments offered by others who differed from yours with statements like: "I am disappointed by the results, seems your all accommodating sheepile, willing to BLINDLY follow no matter the evidence. IMHO, you will never be able to achieve a satisfactory closure to this subject. You have not yet grasped the reasons pertaining to WHY you are arguing so strenuously for the "uneasy truth" you currently cling to while strenuously dismissing all the "truths" offered by others. I would suggest to you that the "uneasy truth" you cling to will never be vindicated from all the so-called authentic video footage allegedly showing the pod and missile. This is why I asked you previously: "Who are you really trying to convince?" You replied with the comment: "No one." But your actions speak exactly the opposite. If you REALLY valued the opinions of others, if you REALLY were seeking the opinions of others in this discussion group you would have asked them and compiled their various opinions. You would have left your personal opinions out of the equation until much, MUCH later, after everyone had made their contributions. You have, however, not behaved in such a manner nor had it ever been your objective to evaluate opinions that differed from yours. From the beginning you objected to every opinion that differed from the ones you have clung to, even going to the extent of calling them "sheepile". From the very beginning you were only interested in your "uneasy truth". Your objective has been to get others in this discussion group to support your "uneasy truth." Trying to get others to confirm your "uneasy truth" while simultaneously tearing down any "truths" that differ only shows everyone how really unsure you are of own "uneasy truth". Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 24 21:26:07 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4P4PwQ9000996; Mon, 24 May 2004 21:25:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4P4Pn9W000941; Mon, 24 May 2004 21:25:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 21:25:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40B2CAC4.4090408@ihug.co.nz> Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 16:25:40 +1200 From: John Berry User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT - more 'semi-official' lies? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <35o8gD.A.lO.NrssAB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54594 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: >The video footage that I had on my TIVO box was the CNN Video- 2nd WTC hit >from battery park. > That video is available at cnn and a larger version at: http://www.loftninjas.org/projects/20010911/ The pod is clearly seen, the missile and orange fireball can't be seen at full speed but if slowed down are fully visible. So do you believe CNN doctored the footage? > >Again, I saw no pod or missile. Particularly important was the fact that I >did not observe any kind of a pre-explosion coming from an alleged missile >that would have preceded the jet's impact into the WTC. > Did you watch it frame by frame? > >There have already been several intelligent and rational explanations given >that explain how jet fuel itself was more than adequate to complete the job, > But that is totally beside the point. Maybe the jet fuel was enough, maybe it wasn't. That's not the issue. >especially since the protective fire retardant insulation had been blown >away from infrastructure leaving it vulnerable to structural failure. >Unfortunately it doesn't appear to be productive to go into these >explanations. > >Mr. Berry, > >Back in May 17 you started the thread "OT Let's roll" with the comment: > >"I do not wish to convince the readers of this list of anything, I simply >want to know what people reactions are when faced with an uneasy truth." > Yes, I don't wish to convince anyone., but it is hard not to reply when I get replies which is inaccurate. > >However by the very next day you were replying to comments offered by others >who differed from yours with statements like: > >"I am disappointed by the results, seems your all accommodating sheepile, >willing to BLINDLY follow no matter the evidence. > Yes, the results were disappointing, I would have thought at least a few curious and honest people might actually view the evidence with integrity and without preconceived notions. However that wasn't the case. > >IMHO, you will never be able to achieve a satisfactory closure to this >subject. > I agree, it isn't due to lack of evidence that who have replied don't believe the evidence, but due to the sever discomfort felt by the thought of such a conspiracy. It doesn't matter how reasonable or solid the proof is they still deny the undeniable as a protective mechanism, it would take something extraordinary to make them believe, more than seeing the pod, missile and fire ball with their own eyes. The explications were reflections, mpeg artifacts, all video faked even though it's from news sites or arguing that because it makes no sense to them it can't be there even though it is. The problem is that they are unwilling to believe and so won't end of story. > You have not yet grasped the reasons pertaining to WHY you are >arguing so strenuously for the "uneasy truth" > Well it is always hard not to reply, arguing come naturally to me and most people. I'm not actually trying to convince anyone as if I wanted to do that I'd make sure I had a greater audience, I was initially interested in how people would react. But when someone replies saying something that is obviously untrue it is hard not to call them on it. > you currently cling to while >strenuously dismissing all the "truths" offered by others. > Yes, "truths" multiple incompatible and in quotes not Truth. > I would suggest >to you that the "uneasy truth" you cling to will never be vindicated from >all the so-called authentic video footage allegedly showing the pod and >missile. > >This is why I asked you previously: "Who are you really trying to convince?" > No one > >You replied with the comment: "No one." But your actions speak exactly the >opposite. > Maybe I just like to argue. > >If you REALLY valued the opinions of others > No, I don't value the opinions of others (at least the ones who have replied) on this list , at least not on this subject. I was interested as to if they showed the maturity to evaluate the video honestly without preconceived ideas and simply see what it shows, or if they would find any way possible to discredit it. I was surprised and disappointed by the result. >, if you REALLY were seeking the >opinions of others in this discussion group you would have asked them and >compiled their various opinions. > All there opinions were the same, it didn't happen. The method of coming to that conclusion varied but was in all cases clearly false. > You would have left your personal opinions >out of the equation until much, MUCH later, after everyone had made their >contributions. > Well I was wondering when I made the first reply if I should wait till more people have said there part or maybe send my reply privately. But I gave in to temptation mostly because I suspected that the replies up to that point was all I was going to get. > >You have, however, not behaved in such a manner nor had it ever been your >objective to evaluate opinions that differed from yours. > Your right, I did not intend to evaluate opinions that are different to mine. I didn't really care how they explained away the videos showing a plane with a missile pod firing missile/s into the WTC. The mere fact that they did shows great resistance to accept what they were seeing. I wasn't trying to see if there was some valid explanation that could explain away everything and be consistent as it was clear to me there isn't. (and still very clear after the replies) My interest was not in those that would manage to convince themselves they weren't seeing what they were seeing, but rather in those that might honestly look at the video and recognize it as the truth, regrettably no one did and bothered to reply. > From the beginning >you objected to every opinion that differed from the ones you have clung to, > Do you honestly think a reflection can explain the pod from all the angles over many frames? And the shadow caused by the pod? Can it explain the missile? The orange fire ball? (that is also visible in the first WTC crash) Can mpeg compression explain all the above from all the angles and the orange fire ball from both crashes? How about it being faked? even though MSN and CNN have the fake? Or how about not bothering to explain the pod, missile and fireball but saying because it makes no sense it can't possibly be there? Wow, now that's interesting, as long as you can't understand why something would be there that mans it isn't even though it's caught on film. >even going to the extent of calling them "sheepile". > They have said that there is no way the US government or any intelligence agency or anyone else with the ability to pull it off would do such a thing. They ridiculed the idea that such a conspiracy could exist. So yes, sheeple meaning going with the flow, easily led and believing what authorities say. > From the very beginning >you were only interested in your "uneasy truth". Your objective has been to >get others in this discussion group to support your "uneasy truth." > No. I would like people to see it and believe it but my aim was too see how many were willing to. And based on replies the answer is zero. I am interested in having people believe it, but this list wasn't my attempt to do that, simply to try and see what number of people would. (this list is too small to make a difference) > >Trying to get others to confirm your "uneasy truth" while simultaneously >tearing down any "truths" > Please tell me, what "truths" were offered that you really believe explain away the pod, missile and fireball? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 24 21:52:51 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4P4qmuZ016611; Mon, 24 May 2004 21:52:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4P4qhIc016580; Mon, 24 May 2004 21:52:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 21:52:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20040525045439.24791.qmail@web41506.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 21:54:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Harvey Norris Subject: Re: Kent State Univ contacted for ferrite heating demos. To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <1085417603.40b22883e30ec@www.cavecreek.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54595 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- Tz'Akh wrote: > Harvey, > > It doesn't surprise me that you received no response > - your letter is a bit of a > jumble. Your letter has no introduction and hits > the reader with facts 'right > out of the gate.' Then after a long run of datum > you have encountered you pose > a question to which you require a detailed answer. What is so hard about comparing a light bulb filament energy demo to a much larger mass acting as the same energy release or more? I thought my question was to the point, can a mass of 3/8 inch block of ferrite give so much heat that it glows for the cited energy input? > > You then pose a highly unspecified 'relationship' in > requesting analysis of a > part of your work. Nada, I only was exact in asking the above question. Then post a link to a public > newsgroup for which, if they > decide to register with private or falsified contact > information, they can then > dig through to find your pictures. If you dont like the tool, then dont look at it. Somewhere. You > then propose that if they > wish to see the source of everything you've > presented thus far, they may drive > to your home.... though yo'd be willing to travel to > them if necessary. Then > followed up with a bait-toss about possibilities for > home heating and > commercializable technology. That is what I said, and that is what I believe. > > I suspect you will find few people anywhere who > would be willing to dive into > that maelstrom. It is a situation that I see as > common to many innovative > people - difficulty communicating. I see it differently, that people already know the truth of nature, and if a truth confounds them they will rationalize why it cannot be. I've picked your > message out of the boat > since I noticed it and you've included a copy of the > ltter you sent. Consider > this a critique from someone who has managed to get > stodgy focused university > scientists to listen to and explore avante garde > ideas. Yeah, well I did what I thought should be done, which is better then nothing at all. > Take a course or read a book on public speaking and > communications. Or, > socialize and do your best to simply convey what > you're doing. I aint no social creature to begin with. If the status quo doesnt wish to see what I am saying, so be it. I aint no brown noser and I dont take suggestions to become one seriously, so I have had a good laugh at your suggestions here. Avoid trapping > people; communication is two-way, and if they > haven't contributed anything to > the conversation in a while they probably are hoping > you'll stop talking soon > so they can go do something else. Write about your > ideas in general/layman's > terms, and then condense each full page of text into > one paragraph - then write > each paragraph as a single sentence. This will help > hone your ideas to a state > of extreme presentability, and will also filter out > trade secrets or other > proprietary stuff. Guy, there is only the truth of nature as we see it. If we see it differently from other folks, we say so. I dont cotton to the opinions of socialites, hypocrites, or any of their cousins. It will also keep you from > depleting your energy in dumping > all the details to every person you come across. Indeed I was very breif.... > When looking for a needle in > the haystack you can ask each straw of hay if they > know anyone that has seen > the needle - chances are it's within six degrees of > seperation. When you get > someone asking you about experimental design you > know you're in the right > area. Hay, I made an observation. I reported the observation. That is my job. I asked for constructive criticism and thanx, but others have given better advise here... As far as a critique on how to deal with sheep people, I dont need that one. Thanx anyhays. HDN ===== Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 24 21:56:05 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4P4twr3008359; Mon, 24 May 2004 21:55:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4P4tut5008324; Mon, 24 May 2004 21:55:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 21:55:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20040525045553.31260.qmail@web41509.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 21:55:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Harvey Norris Subject: Re: Kent State Univ contacted for ferrite heating demos. To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <1085417603.40b22883e30ec@www.cavecreek.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54596 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Tz'Akh wrote: > Harvey, > > It doesn't surprise me that you received no response > - your letter is a bit of a > jumble. Your letter has no introduction and hits > the reader with facts 'right > out of the gate.' Then after a long run of datum > you have encountered you pose > a question to which you require a detailed answer. What is so hard about comparing a light bulb filament energy demo to a much larger mass acting as the same energy release or more? I thought my question was to the point, can a mass of 3/8 inch block of ferrite give so much heat that it glows for the cited energy input? > > You then pose a highly unspecified 'relationship' in > requesting analysis of a > part of your work. Nada, I only was exact in asking the above question. Then post a link to a public > newsgroup for which, if they > decide to register with private or falsified contact > information, they can then > dig through to find your pictures. If you dont like the tool, then dont look at it. Somewhere. You > then propose that if they > wish to see the source of everything you've > presented thus far, they may drive > to your home.... though yo'd be willing to travel to > them if necessary. Then > followed up with a bait-toss about possibilities for > home heating and > commercializable technology. That is what I said, and that is what I believe. > > I suspect you will find few people anywhere who > would be willing to dive into > that maelstrom. It is a situation that I see as > common to many innovative > people - difficulty communicating. I see it differently, that people already know the truth of nature, and if a truth confounds them they will rationalize why it cannot be. I've picked your > message out of the boat > since I noticed it and you've included a copy of the > ltter you sent. Consider > this a critique from someone who has managed to get > stodgy focused university > scientists to listen to and explore avante garde > ideas. Yeah, well I did what I thought should be done, which is better then nothing at all. > Take a course or read a book on public speaking and > communications. Or, > socialize and do your best to simply convey what > you're doing. I aint no social creature to begin with. If the status quo doesnt wish to see what I am saying, so be it. I aint no brown noser and I dont take suggestions to become one seriously, so I have had a good laugh at your suggestions here. Avoid trapping > people; communication is two-way, and if they > haven't contributed anything to > the conversation in a while they probably are hoping > you'll stop talking soon > so they can go do something else. Write about your > ideas in general/layman's > terms, and then condense each full page of text into > one paragraph - then write > each paragraph as a single sentence. This will help > hone your ideas to a state > of extreme presentability, and will also filter out > trade secrets or other > proprietary stuff. Guy, there is only the truth of nature as we see it. If we see it differently from other folks, we say so. I dont cotton to the opinions of socialites, hypocrites, or any of their cousins. It will also keep you from > depleting your energy in dumping > all the details to every person you come across. Indeed I was very breif.... > When looking for a needle in > the haystack you can ask each straw of hay if they > know anyone that has seen > the needle - chances are it's within six degrees of > seperation. When you get > someone asking you about experimental design you > know you're in the right > area. Hay, I made an observation. I reported the observation. That is my job. I asked for constructive criticism and thanx, but others have given better advise here... As far as a critique on how to deal with sheep people, I dont need that one. Thanx anyhays. HDN ===== Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 24 22:13:04 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4P5Cmr3011970; Mon, 24 May 2004 22:12:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4P5ClHN011955; Mon, 24 May 2004 22:12:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 22:12:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20040525051246.46636.qmail@web41504.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 22:12:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Harvey Norris Subject: Ferrite Facts from the Past To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <8dxBEC.A.v6C.PXtsAB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54597 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Sorry about the former sarcastic double reply, the Yahoo mail said it did not recognize my reply ,so I pressed the send button again, youll have that now and then, so as Harvey says, here is the rest of the story... Magnetism/ An Introductory Survey E.W. Lee/1963 Ferrites are basically ionic compounds, just like rock salt, held together by positive metal ions and negative charges of oxygen... in the process of ion formation electrons are transfered from metal to oxygen, and if the number of oxygen atoms is just right every electron given up by the metal atoms will be recieved by the oxygen atoms. None are left over to become free electrons as in a metal, and the substance is an insulator. It is very important to get the right amount of oxygen, however for if there is too little there may be a slight excess of electrons, while if there is too much there will be a small deficit, both of which will lead to electrical conductivity. This necessity for exactness of composition is by no means confined to ferrites, for it is a general feature of a large group of materials known as semiconductors. Ferrites are in fact rightly classified as semiconductors among whose chief characteristics in that any deviation from the exact chemical formula inevitably decreases the electrical resistance, and that resistance of these materials decreases rapidly with increasing temperatures (unlike metals, whose resistance increases slightly in similar circamstances) Keeping the composition exactly right during the sintering (ferrite)process is in fact one of the secrets of the manufacture of ferrites, for although the magnetic properties are not influenced from departure of chemical exactness, the electrical properties are, and it is primarily for their electrical properties that they were originally developed. So 40 years ago they already knew this... HDN ===== Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 24 22:37:12 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4P5b7bV027115; Mon, 24 May 2004 22:37:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4P5b6e2027100; Mon, 24 May 2004 22:37:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 22:37:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 00:38:47 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: energizing carbon Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54598 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I take it that the numbers and letters that Jones posted represent electron orbitals and their energy levels. When I thought about it I got to wondering about bombarding the atoms with specific photons in order to accomplish this. OTOH, I suppose that it would require even more energy to generate the specific photons than it would to produce the arc. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 25 01:51:14 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4P8pAJJ005196; Tue, 25 May 2004 01:51:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4P8p9xq005177; Tue, 25 May 2004 01:51:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 01:51:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Dean Miller To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT - more 'semi-official' lies? Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 03:52:15 -0500 Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: <0j16b0pj1ubblfpn29tu9pu4de7ndc5btd@4ax.com> References: <20040513163844.47757.qmail@web80403.mail.yahoo.com> <40A3C80D.2090309@pobox.com> <40A3F565.8010406@rtpatlanta.com> <40A43694.2010208@pobox.com> <40AE0C0D.1060907@rtpatlanta.com> <40AF3818.4090902@ihug.co.nz> <40B0969F.3080408@ihug.co.nz> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-RAVMilter-Version: 8.4.3(snapshot 20030212) (MidIowa1.midiowa.net) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id i4P8niJJ004787 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54599 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 24 May 2004 05:18:50 -0500, thomas malloy wrote: >IMHO, Ockham's Razor would suggest the scenario that a group of >terrorists hijacked four commercial airplanes and crashed them into >four buildings, IMHO, that is the simplest explanation. Akshully, Sir Ockham (or would that be Sir William?) wouldn't ignore facts that conveniently subvert the above scenario. Most airline pilots (rather, pilots of large, multi-engine jet aircraft) have found it rather humorous to think that anyone could take a flight training course for a few weeks and then be able to pilot a large aircraft for 500+ miles and have it hit anything, let alone 2 planes each hitting a separate tall building. Landing the same kind of aircraft so it touches down exactly at the edge of another building is really ludicrous. >With regards >to your scenario, the only way that it could have happened is as a >result of a massive conspiracy which managed to pull this off and >hide it all from 99% of the population. If they have that kind of >power and organization, we are powerless to stop them. We may, indeed, be powerless. What kind of conspiracy would it take to delay fighter aircraft enough so they would be ineffective? How many *hours* should it have taken for Washington, D.C. to be defended? (Prior to 9/11, it's taken fighter jets less than 10 minutes to investigate UFO's, according to very reliable reports. It took less than 20 minutes for a golfer's plane to be escorted by fighters from the time of the last FAA voice contact with the plane.) -- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 25 02:10:09 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4P9A0bF002547; Tue, 25 May 2004 02:10:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4P99raf002498; Tue, 25 May 2004 02:09:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 02:09:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Dean Miller To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Kent State Univ contacted for ferrite heating demos. Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 04:09:07 -0500 Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: References: <1085417603.40b22883e30ec@www.cavecreek.net> <20040525045439.24791.qmail@web41506.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20040525045439.24791.qmail@web41506.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-RAVMilter-Version: 8.4.3(snapshot 20030212) (MidIowa1.midiowa.net) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id i4P98TbF001951 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54600 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 24 May 2004 21:54:39 -0700 (PDT), Harvey Norris wrote: >can a mass of 3/8 inch block of ferrite >give so much heat that it glows for the cited energy >input? You're missing a few details. 3/8 inch cube? What are the exact dimensions? What kind of contacts? Etc. I've certainly had resistors glow and break when (inadvertently) 50 to 100 watts were forced through them (the size you seem to have is for about 5 or 10 watts dissipation). -- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 25 03:36:03 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4PAYabF019653; Tue, 25 May 2004 03:35:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4PAYY89019637; Tue, 25 May 2004 03:34:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 03:34:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004801c44243$b190b7b0$0500a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: Subject: Re: OT - more 'semi-official' lies? Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 11:33:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54601 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steve J and John B. I looked at the various videos. In the slowed videos, there is almost certainly something under the right wing that is not a compression artefact, shadow, reflection etc. In the slowed down video, it really does look as if something leaves the pod, faster than the plane, and there really is an "impact flare". The close up shot of the white streak that is called a missile looks to me like a sun reflection on the side of the fuselage (there are others, at the last second before impact). The video of the first impact, shot by the firemen, looks much more pixellated and lower quality than the one that I had on video tape (until I erased it a few months ago). This looks as if the quality has been deliberately lowered to cover the Paintshop tracks. My view of the possibilities is: The links to the original CNN etc footage are genuine. Nothing unusual can be seen because of the extreme speed of occurrence. The slowed down sections have been done by someone - these could have been doctored. Where the conspiracy falls down is this - why use a missile? 1) Even a large one wouldn't cause enough damage to do any serious harm to the structure. 2) It would be very difficult to reliably get the missiles to launch at the last split second, if the planes were being piloted remotely, yet in both slowed down impacts there is an orange "missile impact" flare precisely as the nose of both aircraft contacts the building (one would need to "use the force, Luke" to do it). An automatic system would still need to be VERY precise launching. 3) A missile/pod could be seen on slowed down video! Bits of it could be found later. If the purpose was to make sure that the jet fuel ignited, then a simple inertia detonated incendiary device inside the cockpit would have sufficed - nothing to be seen - very reliable. There would be no point if someone says that the missile was to assist the plane entering the building by blowing an entry hole - a 500 mph airliner could penetrate almost anything, particularly a spaced steel structure with lots of glass. 4) Actually it wouldn't be that difficult for anyone who has flown a private plane to pilot an airliner AS A MISSILE. The take off has been done by the pilots, there is no need to do a tricky landing approach. All that is needed is simple control column movements in pitch and roll and throttle. The Pentagon impact, although trickier, is still achievable to anyone who has used a flight simulator. 5) Navigation was not a problem. A simple compass bearing then spotting the highest buildings in America from a long way away wouldn't tax anyone. Nick Palmer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 25 05:07:31 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4PC63bF009401; Tue, 25 May 2004 05:07:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4PC61rc009382; Tue, 25 May 2004 05:06:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 05:06:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40B33649.5080907@ihug.co.nz> Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 00:04:25 +1200 From: John Berry User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT - more 'semi-official' lies? References: <004801c44243$b190b7b0$0500a8c0@nixlaptop> In-Reply-To: <004801c44243$b190b7b0$0500a8c0@nixlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <5AQJ1B.A.gSC.pazsAB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54602 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nick Palmer wrote: >Steve J and John B. I looked at the various videos. In the slowed videos, >there is almost certainly something under the right wing that is not a >compression artefact, shadow, reflection etc. In the slowed down video, it >really does look as if something leaves the pod, faster than the plane, and >there really is an "impact flare". The close up shot of the white streak >that is called a missile looks to me like a sun reflection on the side of >the fuselage (there are others, at the last second before impact). The video >of the first impact, shot by the firemen, looks much more pixellated and >lower quality than the one that I had on video tape (until I erased it a few >months ago). This looks as if the quality has been deliberately lowered to >cover the Paintshop tracks. > > My view of the possibilities is: > >The links to the original CNN etc footage are genuine. Nothing unusual can >be seen because of the extreme speed of occurrence. > No, I can clearly see a pod, and easily if I pause it. the same but with more clarity can be seen at: http://www.loftninjas.org/projects/20010911/ The battery park video is the same one CNN has on their site, due to the speed only the pod can be see though if you take either source and slow it down you will see more. > The slowed down sections >have been done by someone - these could have been doctored. > Go to : http://www.msnbc.com/modules/wtc_terror_vg/ see the pod? MSN and CNN must be in on it, plus the animated gif at LA times (found from one of the links I've posted in previous emails). Any source you will find for any video that shows the relevant angle will show the pod. > >Where the conspiracy falls down is this - why use a missile? > Well one suggestion is that because it was not the right plane, they used the missiles to totally obliterate it fearing that if any made it's way outside of the building it would show it was the wrong plane. And why missiles? Well explosives inside the plane could help to thrust parts of the plane out where they would be more easily found, but explosives outside the planes (missiles) would help destroy and keep the plane in the building. There are other ideas but the real question is does it matter? If you can see the pod who cares why it's there, doesn't change the fact that it is. > 1) Even a large one wouldn't cause enough damage to do any serious harm to >the structure. > Not necessarily, and regarding the fuel melted the steel idea, maybe but it can be argued, especially when you look at the angles the planes hit that most of the fuel was burn up in the initial explosion and was thrust outside the building. > > 2) It would be very difficult to reliably get the missiles to launch at the >last split second, if the planes were being piloted remotely, yet in both >slowed down impacts there is an orange "missile impact" flare precisely as >the nose of both aircraft contacts the building > So how do you explain this? Are large passenger planes now carrying explosives in their nose? > (one would need to "use the >force, Luke" to do it). An automatic system would still need to be VERY >precise launching. > >3) A missile/pod could be seen on slowed down video! Bits of it could be >found later. > Maybe they screwed up and meant both planes to hit within seconds of each other and screwed up? Maybe they figured everyone would simply ignore it, maybe they are becoming too arrogant? (that as everyone has ignored it, maybe they aren't too arrogant?) Look at the errors in the berg video, nothing is right, but lets go back a bit to a favorite conspiracy: JFK. The magic bullet theory shows that there had to be more than just the shots meant to have been fired, there are stories that are even now on the history channel about the multiple Oswalds. Not to mention that the best sharp shooters tried and failed to replicate the shots made by Oswald. But here's the real answer, so what? Just because it seems pointless doesn't erase what is clearly on those video tapes. As for it being easy to crash a plane into a building, I would expect it to be. Though I'm not a pilot, great pilots have said that they couldn't do it. I'm not here to argue the general incident, but did you know that the FBI has admitted and it is on mainstream new websites that the people initially identified as the hijackers were simply people who had their passports stolen. (I can't be bothered to find the pages but they are real) but the FBI hasn't taken back the initial claim. And what about the fact that Atta was identified because his passport which was burnt around the edges was found near the WTC! (You would have to assume it would be in his pocket or in the carry on baggage, so it would need to make it's way out of the baggage compartment, out of the suitcase, out of the plane and out of the building, remember this is a book of paper not lead) I will let you ponder the improbability of that by your self. http://www.rense.com/general48/secondhijackerpass.htm Here is a website that has info on stolen passports, and the video where Osama Bin Laden said "I did it" but it really looks nothing like him! (the stills from the video along with a comparison image is a bit below half way down the page) http://www.apfn.org/apfn/WTC_STF.htm Oh, and by chance both Atta and another terrorist just happened to go to flight schools that where the instructors spoke a language that their passport said they could speak, when the instructors spoke to them in that language they just looked angry. (info also at the above page) I really don't care to argue about the other evidence for or against, so lets just stick to the video. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 25 06:00:47 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4PCxIJJ026060; Tue, 25 May 2004 06:00:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4PCxG5i026041; Tue, 25 May 2004 05:59:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 05:59:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40B3434C.3020600@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 08:59:56 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT - more 'semi-official' lies? References: <004801c44243$b190b7b0$0500a8c0@nixlaptop> <40B33649.5080907@ihug.co.nz> In-Reply-To: <40B33649.5080907@ihug.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54603 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > No, I can clearly see a pod, and easily if I pause it. Okay, here's a professional video editor's analysis of both crashes. You might want to skip his analysis of the first crash as you have not yet discovered that "conspiracy". http://www.questionsquestions.net/WTC/767orwhatzit.html You might first wish to view a high quality version of the video: http://www.questionsquestions.net/WTC/2ndhitcrop.html Hope you have broadband! Your "pod" is clearly generated by a combination of the flare of the sun on the fuselage and the shadow of the starboard engine on the fuselage, as I explained earlier. Oh, and another problem with MPEG compression is that it can appear to timeshift events over short intervals. The flash which you (and others) claim to be a missle launch occurs after the cockpit strikes the building, not before. There is no missle exhaust. Here's a fair analysis of MPEG artifact problems: http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~nd/surprise_96/journal/vol4/sab/report.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 25 06:56:17 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4PDsqbF014014; Tue, 25 May 2004 06:56:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4PDsoCa013988; Tue, 25 May 2004 06:54:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 06:54:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40B34FCD.6050409@ihug.co.nz> Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 01:53:17 +1200 From: John Berry User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT - more 'semi-official' lies? References: <004801c44243$b190b7b0$0500a8c0@nixlaptop> <40B33649.5080907@ihug.co.nz> <40B3434C.3020600@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: <40B3434C.3020600@rtpatlanta.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54604 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > John Berry wrote: > >> No, I can clearly see a pod, and easily if I pause it. > > > Okay, here's a professional video editor's analysis of both crashes. > You might want to skip his analysis of the first crash as you have not > yet discovered that "conspiracy". > > http://www.questionsquestions.net/WTC/767orwhatzit.html Not got anything to do with the pod or missile. Though it does cover the flash in the first video: A white flash is visible at the moment the plane penetrates the building. There has been a lot of speculation on this flash, including the hypothesis that this is some sort of detonation. I find the speculation that this is a missile to be problematic: judging by the shadow, the flash occurs as the plane is penetrating the building and not before. The plane might even be penetrating the building before the flash happens. I find the flash very intriguing, but all I feel qualified to say is that the event is luminescent for no more than 1/60 of a second, it seems to leave behind what might be interpreted as a circular cloud of smoke that rapidly dissipates, and that if it did any damage to the building, it's not evident from the video. It certainly did not cause the entire extent of the hole that resulted from the impact. In my opinion, 9/11 investigators should be cautious about speculating on this, especially given how small this event is in the video image. I would like to see an image analysis by someone professionally trained in detonations and collisions before coming to any conclusions. Considering this flash is also evident in the second plane hit it strengthens the evidence. Please note he sees what looks like smoke from the flash. I found he has another page: http://www.questionsquestions.net/WTC/767orwhatzit2.html It still doesn't address what we are talking about here. > > > You might first wish to view a high quality version of the video: > > http://www.questionsquestions.net/WTC/2ndhitcrop.html That's the second crash, and the pod is visible. If you slow it down the missile and orange ball will be visible. > > > Hope you have broadband! Your "pod" is clearly generated by a > combination of the flare of the sun on the fuselage Wouldn't "flares" that are reflections only show up from some angles? Would they cast shadows? In one of the views the pod is seen clearly though it is dark. The cnn video you have linked above (cropped) has very different lighting to: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=125&topic_id=7924#7993 > and the shadow of the starboard engine on the fuselage, as I explained > earlier. grasping at straws... Actually if you look at the image (underneath view) from the link above you will see the supposed pod reflection is too far back. and how about this shot: http://www.rense.com/1.imagesE/IMAGEX.jpg > > > Oh, and another problem with MPEG compression is that it can appear to > timeshift events over short intervals. The flash which you (and > others) claim to be a missle launch occurs after the cockpit strikes > the building, not before. Seems to be just before or simultaneous. Even if it is so what? Are they putting explosive charges in the noses on passenger aircraft now? > There is no missile exhaust. > > Here's a fair analysis of MPEG artifact problems: > > http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~nd/surprise_96/journal/vol4/sab/report.html > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 25 08:39:31 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4PFdLbF013388; Tue, 25 May 2004 08:39:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4PFdIKg013364; Tue, 25 May 2004 08:39:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 08:39:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002901c4426e$a976fdc0$c864a8c0@win98> From: "Orchestra" To: References: <40B29063.90607@rtpatlanta.com> Subject: Re: Columbia Hangover Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 18:39:57 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54605 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Terry Blanton" > I hope Spirit checks out that large overhand in Columbia Hills: Yes, I hope too. > Any life could have taken shelter there. Possibly, but it appears life not rarely shown in Mars. See these clue-ups I prepared recently. Please note that some features are barely visible in these frames would be much better when post-ICER bitmaps will be available at September. Unfortunately missions would be over that time. So far JPL teams not shown any interest to possible biological originated features. There is no single shot to favour to such a interest. These images are rather for show some diverse forms, instead of the best evidence. http://orchestra.webhostme.com/images/1M137593512EFF2208P2956M2M1-holeworm2.png http://orchestra.webhostme.com/images/1M137593512EFF2208P2956M2M1-spirals2.png http://orchestra.webhostme.com/images/1M137504929EFF2208P2936M2M1-flower.png http://orchestra.webhostme.com/images/1M137593920EFF2208P2956M2M1-spiralc.png http://orchestra.webhostme.com/images/1M132896901EFF06ASP2956M2M1-reflective.png http://orchestra.webhostme.com/images/1M137593860EFF2208P2956M2M1-complex1.png http://orchestra.webhostme.com/images/1M135284543EFF10CGP2956M2M1-BlackExtensions.png This is an unique feature I found on microscopic images, showing a dark small stick like object attached to a blue berry with some extensions. Additional images: There are interesting details in picture from left navigation camera http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/n/110/1N137952920EFF2513P1950L0M1.JPG where possible filamentary features appears many places on disturbed areas (mostly at 8 o'clock outside of the "circle". http://orchestra.webhostme.com/images/1N137952920EFF2513P1950L0M1-possible-filaments.png This show that barely visible filamentary features appearing on navigation camera would be visible clearly and detailed if they were targeted by the microscopic imager. http://orchestra.webhostme.com/images/1P137855530ESF2300P2583L3M1-3-5-7-frame.png frame from composite image. Panoramic camera appears to show filaments and attached micro spherules. These spherules in turn appears to be baby berries. It should be noted that many blue berries are also aligned. This example also show microscopic imager would suffice to show them with full resolution. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 25 09:57:22 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4PGuvJJ002859; Tue, 25 May 2004 09:56:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4PGu3Qi002433; Tue, 25 May 2004 09:56:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 09:56:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20040525124535.020119c8@mail.lenr-canr.org> X-Sender: logs@lenr-canr.org@mail.lenr-canr.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 12:57:52 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Aetherometry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54606 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Malgosia Askanas writes: > If you are interested, I am sure you are perfectly capable of digging > up the still-unanswered answers in the Vortex archives. I reviewed the archives and I.E. articles. Perhaps I am overlooking something, but the most recent set of experiments appear to repeat the original technique, and my objections have not been addressed. In my opinion, these techniques are not satisfactory mainly because: 1. A closed calorimeter should be used to measure heat, rather than a small heat engine in an open space. I have observed surprisingly large, persistent temperature differences in open spaces. 2. The effects of sunlight another external sources of energy should be carefully excluded, rather than deliberately added. A closed calorimeter would accomplish this. 3. Blank runs should be performed. Some should employ objects that do not begin to resemble Orgone energy boxes. At least one should employ something similar to an Orgone box, but which everyone agrees is not an Orgone box. I do not understand what exactly constitutes an Orgone box, but in any case, if the box is actually producing heat, some other box presumably does not produce heat, and the difference should be telling. A blank run is essential in all experiments. In the other debate about aetherometry regarding the gold leaf instrument, I still agree with Ed Storms that if work is being performed, energy is expended, and waste heat must be produced. As far as I know, the First Law is correct. This heat should be measurable with a microcalorimeter. Reasonably inexpensive microcalorimeters are available. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 25 10:18:53 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4PHIlbF014118; Tue, 25 May 2004 10:18:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4PHIjDJ014102; Tue, 25 May 2004 10:18:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 10:18:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: "Johnson, Steven" To: "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" Cc: "Johnson, Steven" Subject: OT: The need to believe in conspiracies Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 12:18:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-PMX-Version: 4.6.0.99824, Antispam-Core: 4.6.0.99824, Antispam-Data: 2004.5.25.101486 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54607 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Since I've been so forthcoming in psychologically analyzing individuals like John Berry and Malgosia Askanas I'll let everyone in on a dirty little secret of mine. I believe in UFOs. Do I have proof? No. None. The best I can do is point viewers to an illustration I did for a fellow who commissioned me to paint what he saw one evening while driving home from the office back in the mid 1980. His encounter happened approximately 15 miles North-West of Madison, Wisconsin, during the twilight hours of the early evening. See: http://orionworks.com/shop/SVJShop/ufos/UFOVol3/Encounters_1000.jpg This is not video footage, something that would have been difficult to refute had I been standing where the painting depicts the scene. My "proof" is a painting. It was my personal interpretation of what this individual had seen. It should also be pointed out that what this individual saw was just as much his own personal interpretation as mine was of his. The encounter changed his life causing him to question a number of personal paradigms that he never had the need to question before. Initially, he tried to get answers. Quite logically he called the Madison airport control tower asking them if there had been any unusual sightings in the area. They laughed at him when he described what he had seen. This is the classical archetype of an individual who never had any reason (or interest) in believing in the existence UFOs who suddenly had to accept the fact that he encountered something he couldn't explain. Despite the fact that most refused to believe his account someone eventually suggested he contact an elderly woman who lives in the Madison area, a lady I've known and have been friends with for years. For decades she has acted as a collector and fielder of anomalous experiences and encounters like the one he had encountered. She, herself, became interested in UFOs when back in the summer of 1947, right around the month of the famous Roswell incident when she observed several metallic sphere-like objects traveling across the sky in broad daylight - in Wisconsin. She hooked the fellow up with a local Wisconsin UFO community. This community consists of individuals who have seen anomalous objects in the sky, individuals who for their own personal reasons believed in UFOs or the accounts they have heard from others, and UFO investigators. I fall into that middle category. To the best of my knowledge I've never personally encountered or seen a UFO. But I believe they exist...well... at least some of them. Let's skip forward to around the year 2000. Do any of you recall viewing a short video footage depicting an alleged UFO encounter shown numerous times on the Sci-Fi channel? The video footage takes place inside a helicopter hovering over the skies of New York City. In the background loom the two majestic World Trade towers. We observe an unidentified object duck behind one of the towers and eventually peek out the other side. An observer in the helicopter is saying things like "Are you getting this?" referring to the video cameraman. Suddenly within the span of seconds the UFO that had been thousands of feet away darts at the helicopter violently buffeting the cockpit before it veers upwards climbing into the sky leaving a brief vapor-like trail in its wake. End of video footage. This footage was shown on the Sci-Fi channel countless times with the implication that it was "authentic". Meanwhile, no explanations such as who took the footage, or when the sighting had occurred were ever given. I confess that I was impressed. I downloaded the footage off of my TIVO box and took it to one of Wisconsin UFO gatherings held in the Milwaukee area. Everyone was captivated by the footage, including Donald Schmitt who is a well-known Roswell investigator. What surprised me personally was the fact that nobody in this group had seen this footage. Guess most of them didn't watch the Sci-Fi channel! Many wanted copies of the video however, including Mr. Schmitt. Mr. Schmitt's curiosity was piqued. Don, being the experienced investigator that he was, decided to get to the bottom of the footage. Getting to the bottom turned out to be an interesting story in itself. It took months for Mr. Schmitt to get a straight answer from the Sci-Fi channel. He was stonewalled for months. It wasn't because there was a sinister "conspiracy" to keep the "truth" from Mr .Schmitt, or the rest of us for that matter. It turned out to be nothing more sinister than simple economics - TV viewing economics. After the footage had served its purpose (like getting individuals like me to watch the Sci-Fi channel) Don eventually met with those involved in the fabrication of the video. It video was skillfully done. The Sci-Fi channel had the resources and expertise to make sure the job was done right. It must have been a favorable encounter for Don and the Sci-Fi channel as some of you might recall that Mr. Schmitt has recently been seen on the Sci-Fi channel as one of the prominent investigators. Soil sample analysis where the crash was alleged to have happened was being performed. Bryant Gumbel was the narrator of this recent Sci-Fi Roswell Investigation program. Currently there are plans to do more Sci-Fi programs on the continuing Roswell investigations after certain on-going legal issues have been cleared up. What I'm trying to suggest here is that, at least for me, sometimes the most accurate "truths" can be no more genuine than one's personal interpretation of what someone else had interpreted themselves. Video footage depicting unexplained phenomenon, while certainly welcomed particularly when it can be authenticated, often turns out to have ulterior motives. There is also the chance that the footage may mutate in bizarre ways before it sees the light of day. It is why I have said before and why I will say again: It is best to chose the conspiracy one wishes to support wisely. This unsolicited advice which I give so freely to the membership of vortex applies to me as much as does to everyone else. Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 25 10:23:22 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4PHN5bF015709; Tue, 25 May 2004 10:23:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4PHMwHd015654; Tue, 25 May 2004 10:22:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 10:22:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20040525172249.24329.qmail@web41503.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 10:22:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Harvey Norris Subject: Re: Kent State Univ contacted for ferrite heating demos. To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54608 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Dean Miller wrote: > On Mon, 24 May 2004 21:54:39 -0700 (PDT), Harvey > Norris > wrote: > > >can a mass of 3/8 inch block of ferrite > >give so much heat that it glows for the cited > energy > >input? > > You're missing a few details. 3/8 inch cube? What > are the exact > dimensions? What kind of contacts? Etc. The unmagnetized blocks of ferrite are 3/8 in by 1/2 in by 7/8 inch, obtained from Dexter Magnetics several years ago. I typically use the largest surface area of the cubes, (7/8 by 1/2 in) for surface contact on each side. I use silver troy ounces in bar form obtained from coin store as top and bottom electrodes. It is good to have a little (gravity) pressure on the top electrode, so I use a large nut, about the size of a car wheel lug bolt to apply pressure to the top electrode. I also have some 1/2 in OD, 1/4 in ID NIB ring magnets. I tried using these several times to apply pressure to the contact pieces, always with bad results, because the heat will demagnetize them completely. I also sanded down two 4 inch aluminum rods to fit inside the ring magnets, and put two of these ring magnets near the endings, on both rods. These two bars can then act as a magnetic holder for pressing the aluminum bars against the ferrite piece, this time along the 7/8 inch longer length of the piece, making a conduction across the 1/2 inch portion. (the end magnets on the rods do not touch, it is this balanced attraction force on each side that presses the bar against the ferrite.) Unfortunately the heat conduction of the rods being next to the glow then partially demagnetized those magnets also, and the gold plating of the magnets cracked and peeled off. > I've certainly had resistors glow and break when > (inadvertently) 50 to > 100 watts were forced through them (the size you > seem to have is for > about 5 or 10 watts dissipation). Yes, but what was the value of those resistors? Since heat loss is given by I squared R, If R were large, this would be a high heat release. Here however the acting resistance of the glow becomes only about 7 ohms, given by the fact that typically the described glow is made by 21 volts DC enabling 3 A. My simple question is this, if I took a 7 ohm resistor, and if that resistor were of similar size and rated at least for 63 watts, would that resistor glow red hot if I passed 3 amps through it? I do not think that amount of heat should be released for the common resistor, but here the resistor behaves in a very non-linear manner, as when the piece cools down, its resistance is thousands of ohms. It is essentially probably "acting" as if it were still thousands of ohms, deduced by the amount of heat being released for the requirement of passing 3 amps through the piece, but at the same time by ohms law we deduce that it is acting as if it were only 7 ohms. Very puzzling. HDN ===== Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 25 10:33:31 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4PHXIbF019955; Tue, 25 May 2004 10:33:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4PHXGCe019936; Tue, 25 May 2004 10:33:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 10:33:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20040525131552.02011880@mail.lenr-canr.org> X-Sender: logs@lenr-canr.org@mail.lenr-canr.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 13:33:12 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Testing the pulse of the public Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <2BdAEC.A.c3E.cN4sAB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54609 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is no surprise, but most references to cold fusion in the press are still derogatory. There is little evidence that the public has "gotten the message," or that columnists and scientists are rethinking the subject. Most people who refer to CF consider it a joke, or a good example of a mistake in science. For example, Sunday's "Dilbert" cartoon took a dig at cold fusion. See: http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20040523.html I discovered a large compendium of newspaper and magazine articles here: http://www.highbeam.com/library/index.asp The search term "cold fusion energy" brings up a large number of articles about CF. (The term "cold fusion" also brings up many articles about the software product of that name). you can see the title and the first 800 characters of the article. You have to pay a fee to download the entire article, and I am not inclined to do that since I have heard it all before, and in most cases I know more about this subject than the authors do. I have not done a count, but my impression is that most articles that refer to cold fusion appear to dismiss it. Here is a typical title: "Scrap heap of bad science grows." (Knight Ridder Newspapers) There are a few positive articles and letters to the editor. A letter from Melvin Miles was published in the California newspaper, and I was surprised to see that one of my letters to the "Sceptic" made it into print. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 25 11:44:38 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4PIiQbF011503; Tue, 25 May 2004 11:44:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4PIiPA3011485; Tue, 25 May 2004 11:44:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 11:44:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20040525133715.0201c778@mail.lenr-canr.org> X-Sender: logs@lenr-canr.org@mail.lenr-canr.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 14:44:26 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: OT: The need to believe in conspiracies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54610 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Johnson, Steven writes: > Getting to the bottom turned out to be an interesting story in itself. It > took months for Mr. Schmitt to get a straight answer from the Sci-Fi > channel. He was stonewalled for months. It wasn't because there was a > sinister "conspiracy" to keep the "truth" from Mr .Schmitt, or the rest of > us for that matter. It turned out to be nothing more sinister than simple > economics - TV viewing economics. After the footage had served its purpose > (like getting individuals like me to watch the Sci-Fi channel) Don > eventually met with those involved in the fabrication of the video. It video > was skillfully done. The Sci-Fi channel had the resources and expertise to > make sure the job was done right. Do you mean the film was faked, and the people at Sci-Fi admitted they faked it? That is surprising. (Not that it was fake, but that they admitted it.) Even the National Enquirer hesitates to say plainly that their mythical tales of monsters on Mars and Titanic survivors found floating in the ocean are fake. I think the National Enquirer does the right thing. They should not admit these stories are fake. That would disturb the aura of make-believe. I myself prefer to think that a cockroach really did write the immortal poems of "Archy and Mehitabel" by jumping on typewriter keys, even though I realize that a cockroach is not heavy enough to actuate the keys of a 1924 typewriter, no matter how high he climbs. I am sure there is a primordial human need to believe in conspiracies. It is healthy, even welcome in most manifestations. The same instinct lets us enjoy mythology, poems, religion, ghost stories, science-fiction and much else that gives life zest. Most people take particular pleasure in the depiction of deception, assassination, mayhem and manslaughter that is at the heart of our most enduring conspiracy theories, and our greatest works of literature. Nothing is so thrilling as the moment when a riveting conspiracy comes to light: . . . let me speak to the yet unknowing world How these things came about. So shall You hear of carnal, bloody and unnatural acts; Of accidental judgments, casual slaughters; Of deaths put on by cunning and forc'd cause; And, in this upshot, purposes mistook Fall'n on th' inventors' heads. . . . People have a healthy love of "Hamlet" or "King Lear," not to mention murder mysteries, "Law and Order," "The Iliad," "Saving Private Ryan" and so on. We are primate predators after all. Recent DNA evidence shows that we have been predators longer than previously thought. We cannot change our nature, and denying the truth will only make things worse. Most people have domesticated themselves and sublimated or controlled these instincts, but no one can erase them. I thought about this a lot after Gene's murder. It seems to me we must come to terms with ourselves. We must realize that healthy, normal humans and chimpanzees love to commit murder and go to war. It is not a pathology. We will never find abnormal DNA or any other marker; the tendency is in all of us. The first step toward reducing violence is to accept that it is a healthy, normal part of being human. I do not mean we must live with violence! It is also perfectly healthy, natural and normal for polio virus to infect people (healthy for the virus; not us), and for pumas to eat us, and for droughts to drastically reduce our population by starvation. Once we accept these things as a normal part of nature, *then* we can find way to circumvent them. Calling them unnatural, or denying they exist, or blaming the victims of polio for the disease does not work. Regarding UFOs, I am sure there are many of them in the literal sense: objects that people cannot identify. But I have no opinion about the origin and or probable nature of these things. There is not enough data. The phenomenon are not amenable to either systematic observation or experimental replication. Perhaps in the distant future we will have millions of automated small-scale, high-resolution telescopic cameras scattered everywhere on earth, and we will be able to make detailed observations of these things. I think it is likely we will have this resource once robots are perfected. Such robots will be wonderful for housekeeping, security, law enforcement and natural science observations, but they will spell the death of privacy. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 25 11:45:30 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4PIjPJJ006336; Tue, 25 May 2004 11:45:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4PIjOsZ006318; Tue, 25 May 2004 11:45:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 11:45:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40B394BB.20501@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 14:47:23 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT - more 'semi-official' lies? References: <004801c44243$b190b7b0$0500a8c0@nixlaptop> <40B33649.5080907@ihug.co.nz> In-Reply-To: <40B33649.5080907@ihug.co.nz> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------070505050700080201070206" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54611 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070505050700080201070206 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Berry wrote: > No, I can clearly see a pod, and easily if I pause it. Okay, how about these CBS nose-on shots? http://www.wtc-terrorattack.com/CBS-News/united_airline_crash_wtc_en.htm You STILL see a pod??? --------------070505050700080201070206 Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="175noseon.jpg" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="175noseon.jpg" /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQEAYABgAAD/2wBDAAMCAgMCAgMDAwMEAwMEBQgFBQQEBQoHBwYIDAoM DAsKCwsNDhIQDQ4RDgsLEBYQERMUFRUVDA8XGBYUGBIUFRT/2wBDAQMEBAUEBQkFBQkUDQsN FBQUFBQUFBQUFBQUFBQUFBQUFBQUFBQUFBQUFBQUFBQUFBQUFBQUFBQUFBQUFBQUFBT/wAAR CABoAIYDASIAAhEBAxEB/8QAHwAAAQUBAQEBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL/8QAtRAA AgEDAwIEAwUFBAQAAAF9AQIDAAQRBRIhMUEGE1FhByJxFDKBkaEII0KxwRVS0fAkM2JyggkK FhcYGRolJicoKSo0NTY3ODk6Q0RFRkdISUpTVFVWV1hZWmNkZWZnaGlqc3R1dnd4eXqDhIWG h4iJipKTlJWWl5iZmqKjpKWmp6ipqrKztLW2t7i5usLDxMXGx8jJytLT1NXW19jZ2uHi4+Tl 5ufo6erx8vP09fb3+Pn6/8QAHwEAAwEBAQEBAQEBAQAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL/8QAtREA AgECBAQDBAcFBAQAAQJ3AAECAxEEBSExBhJBUQdhcRMiMoEIFEKRobHBCSMzUvAVYnLRChYk NOEl8RcYGRomJygpKjU2Nzg5OkNERUZHSElKU1RVVldYWVpjZGVmZ2hpanN0dXZ3eHl6goOE hYaHiImKkpOUlZaXmJmaoqOkpaanqKmqsrO0tba3uLm6wsPExcbHyMnK0tPU1dbX2Nna4uPk 5ebn6Onq8vP09fb3+Pn6/9oADAMBAAIRAxEAPwD6Ngt9rD5s1oR2x3Z4INQQ4U1dhG8EZxX6 U2fCDpIEbZj8akW3UL060kcWznOc045ziobAb9kDZPHFSpBt7ihFYA+9SAFQM0risPQdAKkV Cc42/jUS5LcAmpFViTkEUEPRkqqVUk7fwo8xicHGBTUU5K09MMSQM4FTsyos5u5y13L0GKi8 0KxTvRqMmy6kYAgE1nybjNnnB9K2irq50ROk8NKw12xIIx5y5/OvOPjqgHxi15sji2hB/UV6 N4QjY+ILDJ4Mg615r8b2I+MPiYEZ228B/U1wRb+txOhpuB53cuqSleSWJ5qm8YDcHrV+7XbI zYHBI/r/AFqltaSJslRg19VucKV1qKy5wvynHc0UixM2RkcUUFn0PkA5q1byD3FVIzkE1atw rde1eJYguxSK6qBnIqQoc5GPxqK3UKDU7yqNowaloBACeuKkVd5xTV5NPRTjIqRX1Bw0bAKR k06NmLfMc0FS7r60D5GGal6DaQ87g3HenRJ5aEH7xHamM5BBFLuZhz1xSjruTFHLaiALpkJy SeKie3yy5wfxqxcR+bqBJ6A02SHdMNvQVtey0OuCNzwXDnxJYHjCv2P4/wBK8t+NQJ+MfilW Iz9lhI/M/wCNes+Akx4htSQcbv6GvJfjEPM+MfizPX7PAgrzqXvYqLZ1NWgcHKDvkyA2WPSq flk+YMYGRjFaLMEycE5Y/wA6qTSHJCjGT3r61HntWI/K8liCc5x0op75ds9PrRQJao9+WPYC B3qWIdskfSpI0DA+1OVADXh3HYsWiZ3AH061K6EsOnFRwHDHFTnk5qWxWDOzr3qWJwUPOMet RlwAM02ecQWk0oGdq7sVOoWRYQncDg4oK7nOCKzvDGvHWrGSV18sKcHcMVia14yg0u+WJZQS Wxiob6CZ12wjHGaXdg9CMA9appqscwhYyqC4GAO9TvIAjOzjjjFEblxVkYbgm6kJx14xUakr cD0NDSBp2IPemK+ZT7Vs9jeJ2HglANdsuOSxPH0rxb4vTgfF/wAXsAfuwL+Ne0+AG3+I7QHs GP6V4h8VBu+K3jRjzteAV59H/eUdMvgRxoc7cHGQzD9agmG1gx7VJK2xjwfvMf1qFn804wfx r6xbHnsaW3jI4J60UzOwkHmimI+kIYmAPvS+WQT0qSOQSe31pSuCeQc14RQkQwcetWFO4fSo NhDqe1SltoHB/ClYh36Dwm/Pt605QAuwjIbgimh+DwRSKzFhj1zzSKSH28EdvEYljVUyc4HW si48IaZc3YuJoSzA5GDWzvIznnJzT48Nnj86zd7itqcrf+GLmXWrOa0mMduhO9M59Mf1roZb FRHIATu7k1aLKo6HPbFRysNh4wSDmqiytOhzJUxu/fmpIwAMkc09l3ElfXvSBHCnOMY7Vbeh tE674eLv8SWgHdW6+4/+tXhnxHbf8TfGbE/fuIlH4CvdfhsPM8SWuOoHf6GvBPiMd3xJ8U9s 3a/yrz6WmJOmXwI5qZV3HI7n+dVZQAPl61YnYs3UdTVZiQa+sueeyPhRz1opXycUVQj6OiKs eF21Iq/MarwfIzZOasIdxOK8Iof1IFSNHnAziowDup/zKST0oGCpt3AnOadkKVphbnPangLI o6jFKwD25xg0ozg4OKYOM09QDRYPIVSGyPSknKiM/Q0PtXkZ96jk5jZj6cUWIV72MNQDncO5 xSsuAQoPIwcU9JAm4OAdppwuI2f7tG9zoidT8N4Wj8QwOuT8pBz9D/jXz14xuGn8e+KZXHy/ b9gz6gGvor4byiTxCgX5cKa+b9fkW68WeJec51Rxk9OK4KOuJZ0TfuGO7AsTxgkmomXc5wQa nlbcqoFG31H1qEsAxHGBX1S2PPI2jPtRTi4I4oq0Ox9BoCSSO9TRqQwznn0qshPHP5VZQEDh h+NeEUS7/s785O6pHl3DPaoWYSYBIytKWGABz9KAJlddmMHNCHrTACBzS5xSuTckDlM+9OyM DFRBvWnJzmmMdu45psrgwsPQUNg9aYygRuT0x0oKW5i586RwAalig+YZUjrVu2EKnd0Poasl ldflHSjozoirm18NwYPEkYAOSp5xxXzRqySr4p8TLuIH9qyNwK+pPh6Y21vP8aoTXzDq10H8 TeITjO7U5P51wYfXEM1qL3TInRxKRufCDtxUSwu7OMHoDyauyTrulbcBnjmonkOdykYwOlfV WsecVmjaEDPGaKkMxfqN2PWii47nvkDEhqlB75PHWiivFZQud3I/WhQSwIOKKKQFpG25yc09 WDUUUrCsKTinA4H1oopgNzzz3pl2/lQE96KKCluYrSFlXGc89KfFczKwAPHfNFFVb3Tqgdb8 L2d/Ek248eUf5Gvma+/eazrrgcnU5uv1FFFcOHX+0Muo/dKboSrB3wc8YprSAAKWzRRX07PP 3GtJ5YGKKKKpIdj/2Q== --------------070505050700080201070206-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 25 13:51:57 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4PKppB1024335; Tue, 25 May 2004 13:51:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4PKpnTj024313; Tue, 25 May 2004 13:51:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 13:51:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20040525163302.02016670@mail.lenr-canr.org> X-Sender: logs@lenr-canr.org@mail.lenr-canr.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 16:51:51 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: OT: The need to believe in conspiracies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54612 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hamlet is the first great work of literature about conspiracy that comes to my mind. That was an imaginary conspiracy. I should have mentioned the second great masterpiece of world literature about conspiracy: "Chushingura" or "The Revenge of the 47 Samurai." This portrays a real-life conspiracy, in which 47 masterless samurai (ronin) avenge their master's unfair death caused by Kira Yoshinaka. After years of plotting, conspiring, and hiding their intentions from the authorities, they invaded Kira's mansion and beheaded him. They surrendered to the authorities, who condemned them to commit mass-seppuku (harakiri). The actual event took place on January 30, 1703. Japanese people have been talking about it incessantly ever since. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 25 14:29:01 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4PLSsB1003791; Tue, 25 May 2004 14:28:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4PLOcTh002739; Tue, 25 May 2004 14:24:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 14:24:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: "Johnson, Steven" To: "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" Cc: "Johnson, Steven" Subject: RE: OT: The need to believe in conspiracies Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 16:24:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-PMX-Version: 4.6.0.99824, Antispam-Core: 4.6.0.99824, Antispam-Data: 2004.5.25.101510 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54613 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell@mindspring.com] > Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 3:52 PM > To: vortex-L@eskimo.com > Subject: RE: OT: The need to believe in conspiracies > > > Hamlet is the first great work of literature about conspiracy > that comes to my mind. That was an imaginary conspiracy. I > should have mentioned the second great masterpiece of world > literature about conspiracy: "Chushingura" or "The Revenge of > the 47 Samurai." This portrays a real-life conspiracy, in > which 47 masterless samurai (ronin) avenge their master's > unfair death caused by Kira Yoshinaka. After years of > plotting, conspiring, and hiding their intentions from the > authorities, they invaded Kira's mansion and beheaded him. > They surrendered to the authorities, who condemned them to > commit mass-seppuku (harakiri). The actual event took > place on January 30, 1703. Japanese people have been talking > about it incessantly ever since. > > - Jed This is a wise conspiracy to support! BTW, I may not have been sufficiently clear about a few points concerning UFO investigator, Don Schmitt's, discovery of who was responsible for the WTC UFO footage. Initially, he spent several fruitless months trying to contact appropriate personnel at the Sci-Fi company. Initially, nobody would give him a straight answer. Nobody would tell him where the intriguing WTC UFO footage came from, who was responsible for shooting it, and when the footage was shot. It was only many months later that he was able to get to the bottom of this little "conspiracy." Eventually he met privately with some of the individuals responsible for generating the footage. They did a good job. The footage was a visual masterpiece. Rest assured, Jed, while Mr. Schmitt may have gotten to the bottom of the "conspiracy" no public announcement has yet to be made claiming this footage was a fake! All we have here is here-say from me! I got the impression that Mr. Schmitt's persistent inquiries at the Sci-Fi channel may have helped open a few doors for him. They probably to talking with one another. "So, you've investigated the Roswell incident. What can you tell us about it?" Not long afterwards, the Sci-Fi channel produced a pretty good documentary on the continuing Roswell investigations. Mr. Schmitt played a prominent roll in the program, as did Bryant Gumbel. It is my understanding that the Sci-Fi channel plans to produce additional Roswell investigative programs after some on-going legal issues are resolved. The American people have been talking about this modern event for quite some time now. It has become a part of America's modern mythic fabric. Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 25 15:11:49 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4PMBdB1007584; Tue, 25 May 2004 15:11:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4PMBbpa007551; Tue, 25 May 2004 15:11:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 15:11:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Dean Miller To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Kent State Univ contacted for ferrite heating demos. Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 16:49:02 -0500 Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: References: <20040525172249.24329.qmail@web41503.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20040525172249.24329.qmail@web41503.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-RAVMilter-Version: 8.4.3(snapshot 20030212) (MidIowa1.midiowa.net) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id i4PMBXB1007517 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54614 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 25 May 2004 10:22:49 -0700 (PDT), Harvey Norris wrote: >Yes, but what was the value of those resistors? Since >heat loss is given by I squared R, If R were large, >this would be a high heat release. Here however the >acting resistance of the glow becomes only about 7 >ohms, given by the fact that typically the described >glow is made by 21 volts DC enabling 3 A. My simple >question is this, if I took a 7 ohm resistor, and if >that resistor were of similar size and rated at least >for 63 watts, would that resistor glow red hot if I >passed 3 amps through it? You can't find a resistor of similar size that's rated for 63 watts. That was my point! 63 watts isn't a lot of power, but it is in a small space. A standard 10 watt resistor is 1/2 inch square by 1-1/2 inches long. A 50 watt resistor is about 1 inch square by about 4 inches long (my measurements may be off a little because I didn't go into the shop to measure them). They have to be that big to radiate the heat to free air. Your little ferrites can't possibly radiate enough heat to stop their destruction when you put 63 watts through them unless they're thermally coupled to a much larger heat radiator or other heat sink. -- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 25 16:41:54 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4PNfmvN032122; Tue, 25 May 2004 16:41:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4PNfjhK032100; Tue, 25 May 2004 16:41:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 16:41:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40B3DA34.8000101@ihug.co.nz> Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 11:43:48 +1200 From: John Berry User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: The need to believe in conspiracies References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54615 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Johnson, Steven wrote: >Since I've been so forthcoming in psychologically analyzing individuals like >John Berry and Malgosia Askanas I'll let everyone in on a dirty little >secret of mine. > Hardly. I don't have a need to believe, rather I am highly reluctant to believe in conspiracy theories. Some people want to believe in conspiracy theories, and I actually find that somewhat spooky. I resisted belief but could no longer do so honestly. Though I knew it wasn't possible I would have actually been very happy if someone had an answer that actually made sense to explain away the pod and missiles and hopefully all the other info. > >I believe in UFOs. > Same here. > >Do I have proof? > The photographic and video and radar and eyewitness (including being videotaped by crowds) and intercepted by planes and physical evidence is overwhelming. The oddest part is if you believe in UFO's you pretty much must believe in aliens (as the number and variety of UFO's is beyond the sole govt. & aerospace ability) but the evidence for aliens doesn't go beyond eyewitness accounts (which for the less human aliens often seem to happen when the person is asleep). You would think there would be some foressic trace, some DNA or a photo or two. But there is nothing beyond eyewitness claims. > >No. None. > >The best I can do is point viewers to an illustration I did for a fellow who >commissioned me to paint what he saw one evening while driving home from the >office back in the mid 1980. His encounter happened approximately 15 miles >North-West of Madison, Wisconsin, during the twilight hours of the early >evening. See: > >http://orionworks.com/shop/SVJShop/ufos/UFOVol3/Encounters_1000.jpg > >This is not video footage, something that would have been difficult to >refute had I been standing where the painting depicts the scene. My "proof" >is a painting. It was my personal interpretation of what this individual had >seen. It should also be pointed out that what this individual saw was just >as much his own personal interpretation as mine was of his. > >The encounter changed his life causing him to question a number of personal >paradigms that he never had the need to question before. Initially, he tried >to get answers. Quite logically he called the Madison airport control tower >asking them if there had been any unusual sightings in the area. They >laughed at him when he described what he had seen. > >This is the classical archetype of an individual who never had any reason >(or interest) in believing in the existence UFOs who suddenly had to accept >the fact that he encountered something he couldn't explain. > > >Despite the fact that most refused to believe his account someone eventually >suggested he contact an elderly woman who lives in the Madison area, a lady >I've known and have been friends with for years. For decades she has acted >as a collector and fielder of anomalous experiences and encounters like the >one he had encountered. She, herself, became interested in UFOs when back in >the summer of 1947, right around the month of the famous Roswell incident >when she observed several metallic sphere-like objects traveling across the >sky in broad daylight - in Wisconsin. She hooked the fellow up with a local >Wisconsin UFO community. This community consists of individuals who have >seen anomalous objects in the sky, individuals who for their own personal >reasons believed in UFOs or the accounts they have heard from others, and >UFO investigators. > >I fall into that middle category. To the best of my knowledge I've never >personally encountered or seen a UFO. But I believe they exist...well... at >least some of them. > >Let's skip forward to around the year 2000. Do any of you recall viewing a >short video footage depicting an alleged UFO encounter shown numerous times >on the Sci-Fi channel? The video footage takes place inside a helicopter >hovering over the skies of New York City. In the background loom the two >majestic World Trade towers. We observe an unidentified object duck behind >one of the towers and eventually peek out the other side. An observer in the >helicopter is saying things like "Are you getting this?" referring to the >video cameraman. Suddenly within the span of seconds the UFO that had been >thousands of feet away darts at the helicopter violently buffeting the >cockpit before it veers upwards climbing into the sky leaving a brief >vapor-like trail in its wake. End of video footage. This footage was shown >on the Sci-Fi channel countless times with the implication that it was >"authentic". Meanwhile, no explanations such as who took the footage, or >when the sighting had occurred were ever given. > >I confess that I was impressed. I downloaded the footage off of my TIVO box >and took it to one of Wisconsin UFO gatherings held in the Milwaukee area. >Everyone was captivated by the footage, including Donald Schmitt who is a >well-known Roswell investigator. What surprised me personally was the fact >that nobody in this group had seen this footage. Guess most of them didn't >watch the Sci-Fi channel! Many wanted copies of the video however, including >Mr. Schmitt. Mr. Schmitt's curiosity was piqued. Don, being the experienced >investigator that he was, decided to get to the bottom of the footage. > >Getting to the bottom turned out to be an interesting story in itself. It >took months for Mr. Schmitt to get a straight answer from the Sci-Fi >channel. He was stonewalled for months. It wasn't because there was a >sinister "conspiracy" to keep the "truth" from Mr .Schmitt, or the rest of >us for that matter. It turned out to be nothing more sinister than simple >economics - TV viewing economics. After the footage had served its purpose >(like getting individuals like me to watch the Sci-Fi channel) Don >eventually met with those involved in the fabrication of the video. It video >was skillfully done. The Sci-Fi channel had the resources and expertise to >make sure the job was done right. It must have been a favorable encounter >for Don and the Sci-Fi channel as some of you might recall that Mr. Schmitt >has recently been seen on the Sci-Fi channel as one of the prominent >investigators. Soil sample analysis where the crash was alleged to have >happened was being performed. Bryant Gumbel was the narrator of this recent >Sci-Fi Roswell Investigation program. Currently there are plans to do more >Sci-Fi programs on the continuing Roswell investigations after certain >on-going legal issues have been cleared up. > >What I'm trying to suggest here is that, at least for me, sometimes the most >accurate "truths" can be no more genuine than one's personal interpretation >of what someone else had interpreted themselves. Video footage depicting >unexplained phenomenon, while certainly welcomed particularly when it can be >authenticated, often turns out to have ulterior motives. There is also the >chance that the footage may mutate in bizarre ways before it sees the light >of day. > >It is why I have said before and why I will say again: It is best to chose >the conspiracy one wishes to support wisely. > >This unsolicited advice which I give so freely to the membership of vortex >applies to me as much as does to everyone else. > >Steven Vincent Johnson >www.OrionWorks.com > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 25 17:14:12 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4Q0E7vN010866; Tue, 25 May 2004 17:14:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4Q0E6ga010851; Tue, 25 May 2004 17:14:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 17:14:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40B3E1CA.8090707@ihug.co.nz> Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 12:16:10 +1200 From: John Berry User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT - more 'semi-official' lies? References: <004801c44243$b190b7b0$0500a8c0@nixlaptop> <40B33649.5080907@ihug.co.nz> <40B394BB.20501@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: <40B394BB.20501@rtpatlanta.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54616 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > John Berry wrote: > >> No, I can clearly see a pod, and easily if I pause it. > > > > Okay, how about these CBS nose-on shots? > > http://www.wtc-terrorattack.com/CBS-News/united_airline_crash_wtc_en.htm > > You STILL see a pod??? I do see a deformation on the correct side of the plane. The 3rd photo down of that series shows the pod most clearly. Not only is there an anomaly on the correct (left) side of the plane but even if there wasn't may I ask since when has significantly poorer quality (much more distant) video been used to disprove multiple higher quality videos? Never the less yes I certainly do see a pod especially in that 3rd pic. Oh, and take a look at the video on http://www.letsroll911.org/ again. Not only does the orange fireball occur fractions of a second before the plane hits, the fire ball doesn't appear where the nose hits but a little to the right perfectly in line with the missile pod. and indeed the fireball appears just as the missile disappears. > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 25 18:21:13 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4Q1L9vN031283; Tue, 25 May 2004 18:21:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4Q1L7sr031264; Tue, 25 May 2004 18:21:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 18:21:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <1de.20f60769.2de54b7b@aol.com> Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 21:23:07 EDT Subject: extracting energy from ambient radio waves To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_1de.20f60769.2de54b7b_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6804 Resent-Message-ID: <8SJ8ZD.A.coH.DE_sAB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54617 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --part1_1de.20f60769.2de54b7b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Its not a lot of energy but it may have a nitch. http://www.post-gazette.com/healthscience/20000904harvest1.asp Frank Z --part1_1de.20f60769.2de54b7b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Its not a lot of energy but it may=20= have a nitch.

http://www.post-gazette.com/healthscience/20000904harvest1.asp

Frank Z --part1_1de.20f60769.2de54b7b_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 25 20:42:52 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4Q3gleB016085; Tue, 25 May 2004 20:42:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4Q3ggKh016036; Tue, 25 May 2004 20:42:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 20:42:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40B412B4.2020602@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 23:44:52 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT Let's roll References: <40A962DF.3030608@ihug.co.nz> <40AA3B9B.9030906@pobox.com> <40AA46F3.5020700@rtpatlanta.com> <200405201414.57374.rockcast@earthlink.net> <40ACF2DB.6070204@rtpatlanta.com> <40ADFCBD.67A4ADA5@centurytel.net> In-Reply-To: <40ADFCBD.67A4ADA5@centurytel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54618 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Been away from email for a few days. Taylor, this is fascinating, but I had a couple global questions. First, the repeated assertions that the plane wasn't flight 175 because it was a longer aircraft (a 300 not a 200) -- where is this info coming from? I really like Jones's notion that the spectacular tape we saw was bogus. Let's accept that for a moment, and ask -- what OTHER evidence is there that the wrong plane hit the WTC? The other question is purely technical, regarding Boeing aircraft. I read somewhere, some time back, that the Airbus planes are fly-by-wire -- you control the computer, it controls the plane. Boeing planes, OTOH, were at that time still controlled directly by the pilot ("directly" modulo lots of electronics and hydraulics and such, of course) -- the computer was advisory but the pilot ultimately had final say over what happened. Perhaps 767's are newer than that, and things have changed -- but before I buy into a theory that it was a radio controlled plane that hit the tower I'd really like to be certain on this point. Pilots, I should point out, had a big problem with the Airbus approach: they felt that there are times when you must, for the safety of the plane, perform maneuvers outside the computer's notion of the "safe operating envelope" and fly-by-wire made that harder. I also seem to recall that even Airbus allowed on-the-spot overriding of the computer's ideas of safety, in case the pilots felt the need justified it, but I don't recall any further details on that. It would tend to discredit the notion that the maneuvers would have been impossible because "the computer wouldn't have allowed them", however. Comments? (I've snipped much of the rest of the message in an effort to conform to the Vortex "please snip heavily" rule.) Taylor J. Smith wrote: > > ``Back in June 2003 La Vanguardia in Barcelona, Spain, > published an investigative report on the plane that slammed > into the South Tower. The report was a simple affair, > it used the photo we see here on the left and wondered > what these strange objects attached to the underside of > the Flight 175 might be, and whether they were just an > optical illusion. > > After a thorough digital image analysis by a Spanish > university, "Thorough"? Hmm. I looked at their analysis. They ran an edge detector over it and "detected" the shadows which were already clearly visible to the naked eye. My feeling is that we should forget the "computer analysis" evidence. It adds nothing to what you can already see on the photo. the article came to the conclusion that the > objects were three-dimensional in nature and could not > have been caused by shadows or reflections ... I didn't find their conclusions all that convincing. The plane in their photo also looked rather different from the one in the tape, and the "object" underneath it looked quite different, to my eyes at least. I think this supports Jones's theory more than any other. > > 1. Who overrode Flight 175's onboard computers? > > Modern planes are complicated creatures that incorporate a > whole slew of sophisticated technology. First among them, > flight computers that instantly override any accidental > brusque manoeuvres; you don't want your business-class > customers slopping their Dom Perignon over their immaculate > suits, just because the pilot sneezes at the wrong moment. Again, this doesn't jibe with what I've read about Boeing aircraft. I'd want to be sure this properly describes the flight system of a 767 before I'd draw any conclusions from it. > The banking manoeuvre we see here, just as flight 175 > is about to slam into the South Tower, would have been > overridden by the onboard flight computer. Maybe. Or maybe the extremity of the bank was misjudged by the observers on the ground. > > As far as she and her colleagues were concerned, there > was no doubt, "The speed, the maneuverability, the way > that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of > us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a > military plane," says O'Brien. "You don't fly a 757 in > that manner. It's unsafe." Oh come on. "It's unsafe" to do it with a 757 so it must have been some other kind of plane. Right, of course they wouldn't have performed an unsafe maneuver in the course of committing suicide. Normal pilots don't do those maneuvers. Air traffic controllers never see airliners flown that way. Both points are obviously true. What does it prove? Just what kinds of aerobatics actually are possible in an airliner? I don't know, I bet most ATC's don't know, but I bet you can do a lot more to those planes than you would expect before the wings actually break off. Boeing presumably knows how far you can really push their planes, of course. > 2. ... This is not a Boeing 767-200 ... > > This is the long-fuselage version of the 767. The 767-200 > is a short, stubby-nose plane ... Where is the evidence that it's not a 767-200? Was it the video, or was it something else? OK, enough for now. Cheers... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 26 05:51:03 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4QCopoH025571; Wed, 26 May 2004 05:50:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4QCodH7025515; Wed, 26 May 2004 05:50:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 05:50:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <9dbec46c-eab4-4778-9a69-81310d202ec7> Message-ID: <004a01c4431f$ff333650$5041ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Ockham's razor, Conspiracies, 9/11, Flight 800, and UFOs Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 08:48:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0046_01C442FE.3EAFEDE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54619 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0046_01C442FE.3EAFEDE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The discussion itself is an interesting exercise in human data analysis, = which relates indirectly to arguments over LENR, BLP, ZPE, PAGD, = Aetherometry, UFOs, etc. Before anyone gets offended by being included = in this list, it is simply a list of topics about which there are = debates about observation and admissible evidence.=20 Ockham's razor is frequently invoked and misapplied. The principle that = the simplest statement of relationship among a set of data being the = most likely correct is sound. The unspoken corollary is what data are = included in the "universe of discourse". The selection of data is = judgmental, human, and prone to prejudice while the discussion of the = 'accepted' data can be logical and rigorous, having the semblance of = 'truth'.=20 So we have in the case of the WTC attacks, a set of interpretations of = images. John Berry persists in 'seeing what he sees' while not = understanding the technical analysis of the whole imaging process = offered by several members of this forum. That knowledge must be = admitted to the 'universe of discourse', for his argument is based on a = small set of images which may be doctored or misinterpreted. The WTC = events are integral members of a larger set of data, which include the = attack on the Pentagon, and the "Let's Roll" plane where passengers = overcame the hijackers and forced a crash in farmland far from = Washington. Those events were widely narrated by cell phone calls from = passengers, who knew they would die, to their wives and family. Trying = to frame a conspiracy which includes all the available data strains = credulity.=20 Curiously, the Flight 800 conspiracy theory has the opposite twist; = instead of a secret government plot to cause the attack, the plot is to = conceal that Flight 800 was brought down by a shoulder fired missile = launched from a boat in Long Island Sound. Presumably a terrorist = attack, disinformation during an election year made it seem that all was = safe.=20 My take on why people "believe in" conspiracies, or 'anything' for that = matter is that it is rooted in a fundamental property of our nervous = system, that of ***pattern recognition***. This is fundamental to all = modes of perception, and of cognition. It is essential for survival. It = is the only way to cope with an essentially chaotic world; we find = patterns, patterns, patterns. We see constellations in the random = scattering of stars, hear voices in the noise of the surf, etc. A = corollary, also rooted in biology, is the separation of the world into = US and THEM on the slightest excuse. The root is in the cell, which = conducts its "inside" chemistry isolated from the "outside", and in the = immune system which catalogs everything that 'belongs' in a growing = infant and thereafter seeks to destroy all invaders.=20 So, faced with a shock such as 9/11, one desperately seeks an acceptable = 'reason why' that fits with pre-existing patterns. Data that do not fit = are ignored.=20 As for UFOs, I suggest interested parties dig into Greer's Disclosure = Project. So far as I can tell, he has done the most credible job of = collecting and evaluating evidence, and testimony from credible = witnesses. The witnesses, which can be seen on tape, are people with = substantial credentials for technical ability and 'being there'. If you = want a evidence of systematic cover-up and disinformation extending over = decades, it is in Greer's collection. The evidence does not stop there, = it extends to paintings centuries old including detailed depiction of = flying artifacts which we would immediately classify with current UFOs. = In Greer's view, one major barrier to public disclosure is a concern for = a culture shock that would destabilize society and commerce with = official revelation -- not on my watch, please. Who wants official = recognition of humanity as a primitive, technically undeveloped = civilization, studiously blind to evidence of the existence of advanced = energy and propulsion technologies and smug in conviction that we = **really ** understand how the universe works? Another view is covert = contact has been going on, but the devices in hand belong to a = technology level beyond our horizon: fiddling with them may be extremely = dangerous and having that knowledge loose in our xenophobic world may = make our worries about nuclear technology seem petty by comparison.=20 Mike Carrell ------=_NextPart_000_0046_01C442FE.3EAFEDE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The discussion itself is an interesting = exercise in=20 human data analysis, which relates indirectly to arguments over LENR, = BLP, ZPE,=20 PAGD, Aetherometry, UFOs, etc. Before anyone gets offended by being = included in=20 this list, it is simply a list of topics about which there are = debates=20 about observation and admissible evidence.
 
Ockham's razor is frequently invoked = and=20 misapplied. The principle that the simplest statement of relationship = among a=20 set of data being the most likely correct is sound. The unspoken = corollary is=20 what data are included in the "universe of discourse". The selection of = data is=20 judgmental, human, and prone to prejudice while the discussion of the = 'accepted'=20 data can be logical and rigorous, having the semblance of 'truth'. =
 
So we have in the case of the WTC = attacks, a set of=20 interpretations of images. John Berry persists in 'seeing what he sees' = while=20 not understanding the technical analysis of the whole imaging process = offered by=20 several members of this forum. That knowledge must be admitted to the = 'universe=20 of discourse', for his argument is based on a small set of images which = may be=20 doctored or misinterpreted. The WTC events are integral members of a = larger set=20 of data, which include the attack on the Pentagon, and the "Let's Roll" = plane=20 where passengers overcame the hijackers and forced a crash in farmland = far from=20 Washington. Those events were widely narrated by cell phone calls from=20 passengers, who knew they would die, to their wives and family. Trying = to frame=20 a conspiracy which includes all the available data strains credulity.=20
 
Curiously, the Flight 800 conspiracy = theory has the=20 opposite twist; instead of a secret government plot to cause the attack, = the=20 plot is to conceal that Flight 800 was brought down by a shoulder fired = missile=20 launched from a boat in Long Island Sound. Presumably a terrorist = attack,=20 disinformation during an election year made it seem that all was safe.=20
 
My take on why people "believe in" = conspiracies, or=20 'anything' for that matter is that it is rooted in a fundamental = property of our=20 nervous system, that of ***pattern recognition***. This is fundamental = to all=20 modes of perception, and of cognition. It is essential for survival. It = is the=20 only way to cope with an essentially chaotic world; we find patterns, = patterns,=20 patterns. We see constellations in the random scattering of stars, hear = voices=20 in the noise of the surf, etc. A corollary, also rooted in biology, is = the=20 separation of the world into US and THEM on the slightest excuse. The = root is in=20 the cell, which conducts its "inside" chemistry isolated from the = "outside", and=20 in the immune system which catalogs everything that 'belongs' in a = growing=20 infant and thereafter seeks to destroy all invaders.
 
So, faced with a shock such as 9/11, = one=20 desperately seeks an acceptable 'reason why' that fits with pre-existing = patterns. Data that do not fit are ignored.
 
As for UFOs, I suggest interested = parties dig into=20 Greer's Disclosure Project. So far as I can tell, he has done the most = credible=20 job of collecting and evaluating evidence, and testimony from credible=20 witnesses. The witnesses, which can be seen on tape, are people with = substantial=20 credentials for technical ability and 'being there'. If you want a = evidence of=20 systematic cover-up and disinformation extending over decades, it is in = Greer's=20 collection. The evidence does not stop there, it extends to paintings = centuries=20 old including detailed depiction of flying artifacts which we would = immediately=20 classify with current UFOs. In Greer's view, one major barrier to public = disclosure is a concern for a culture shock that would destabilize = society and=20 commerce with official revelation -- not on my watch, please. Who wants = official=20 recognition of humanity as a primitive, technically undeveloped = civilization,=20 studiously blind to evidence of the existence of advanced energy and = propulsion=20 technologies and smug in conviction that we **really ** understand how = the=20 universe works? Another view is covert contact has been going on, but = the=20 devices in hand belong to a technology level beyond our horizon: = fiddling with=20 them may be extremely dangerous and having that knowledge loose in our=20 xenophobic world may make our worries about nuclear technology seem = petty by=20 comparison.
 
Mike Carrell
------=_NextPart_000_0046_01C442FE.3EAFEDE0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 26 07:31:03 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4QEV00G025127; Wed, 26 May 2004 07:31:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4QEUYuB025026; Wed, 26 May 2004 07:30:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 07:30:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20040526102438.02016c10@mail.lenr-canr.org> X-Sender: logs@lenr-canr.org@mail.lenr-canr.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 10:30:26 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: extracting energy from ambient radio waves Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54620 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: That is very interesting. There are a few other techniques for deriving power from ambient surroundings, such as self winding wristwatches and photovoltaic chips. PV is probably the most common method. I wonder if you could use something else such as the daily change in temperature. All this ambient RF worries me. It would not surprise me to learn that it causes a health problem after all. We were not evolved to deal with it. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 26 07:44:42 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4QEic0G032119; Wed, 26 May 2004 07:44:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4QEib3K032092; Wed, 26 May 2004 07:44:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 07:44:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20040526104007.020168d8@mail.lenr-canr.org> X-Sender: logs@lenr-canr.org@mail.lenr-canr.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 10:44:34 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Conspiracy theories galore Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <-Bbz9.A.Y1H.V1KtAB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54621 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is a site specializing in the kind of conspiracy theories we have been discussing: http://www.abovetopsecret.com Many of these "conspiracies" are taken from the front pages of the newspaper, such as: "Chemical Fire Forces Residents East of Atlanta to Evacuate." Yes, we know about that. I found out about this because it generated a log record linked to LENR-CANR.org, from this page: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread29734/pg1 This is a fount of useful information, such as: "Cold fusion. Reported in a single journal. The experiment was never repeatable even by the original two scientist that published it. Faulty calculations were found within the published paper." You should not believe everything you read on the Internet. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 26 08:46:56 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4QFkpoH014499; Wed, 26 May 2004 08:46:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4QFknok014481; Wed, 26 May 2004 08:46:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 08:46:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: Conspiracy theories galore Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 22:44:29 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040526104007.020168d8@mail.lenr-canr.org> X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54622 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed, I was tempted to join the fray on that thread, (a sucker for science trolls there, I guess) but I try to ration my time, efforts and musings on more worthy targets who try to appear authoritative. I had already punched in your URL on another thread there when I saw that one, but someone else had already put in a good word for your site: "By the way, the part of cold fusion that ScienceguyQ mentioned might not be true. The DOE is reevaluating the experiments, because lots of others have claimed to have duplicated them... http://www.infinite-energy.com/resources/pressreleasedoe.html http://www.lenr-canr.org/Collections/USNavy.htm " This would be the link to your site... You might note that on abovetopsecret most people discount the 'establishment science' perspectives, the few there who rail against cold fusion and other efforts are known trolls and, while articulate, transparently shallow. It is an interesting board, with a largely intelligent population slowly being subsumed by riff-raff. Keep up the good work > -----Original Message----- > From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell@mindspring.com] > Sent: Wednesday, 2004 May 26 21:45 > To: vortex-L@eskimo.com > Subject: Conspiracy theories galore > > > Here is a site specializing in the kind of conspiracy theories we > have been > discussing: > > http://www.abovetopsecret.com > > Many of these "conspiracies" are taken from the front pages of the > newspaper, such as: "Chemical Fire Forces Residents East of Atlanta to > Evacuate." Yes, we know about that. > > I found out about this because it generated a log record linked to > LENR-CANR.org, from this page: > > http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread29734/pg1 > > This is a fount of useful information, such as: "Cold fusion. > Reported in a > single journal. The experiment was never repeatable even by the original > two scientist that published it. Faulty calculations were found > within the > published paper." > > You should not believe everything you read on the Internet. > > - Jed > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 26 09:02:41 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4QG2UoH020617; Wed, 26 May 2004 09:02:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4QG2TCZ020601; Wed, 26 May 2004 09:02:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 09:02:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40B4C013.3080409@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 12:04:35 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ockham's razor, Conspiracies, 9/11, Flight 800, and UFOs References: <004a01c4431f$ff333650$5041ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <004a01c4431f$ff333650$5041ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54623 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: > ... > Curiously, the Flight 800 conspiracy theory has the opposite twist; > instead of a secret government plot to cause the attack, the plot is to > conceal that Flight 800 was brought down by a shoulder fired missile > launched from a boat in Long Island Sound. > ... The Flight 800 situation was also quite different in a fundamental way. In the WTC situation, on the surface everything appears to be what we're told it really is. You need to do some digging in order to find anything "suspicious". Flight 800 was the exact opposite -- eye witness accounts included the missile. People watching the disaster actually saw something shoot UP into the sky and then explode, and then the plane came down. The investigators had to do some real digging and some careful analysis in order to come up with any alternative to the _obvious_ conspiracy theory! The conclusion that the plane actually broke in half, and the front half shot up (providing the "missile" seen by witnesses) while the back half went down, followed by the front half nosing over and crashing, was not at all obvious from the initial reports. In fact, I'm still not sure that I correctly understand the official explanation. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 26 09:43:52 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4QGhk0G009492; Wed, 26 May 2004 09:43:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4QGhjT0009472; Wed, 26 May 2004 09:43:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 09:43:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <008401c44340$16df08e0$8837fea9@pacbell.net> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.0.3.0.2.20040513114937.01f29db8@mail.lenr-canr.org> Subject: Re: Another paper about CR-39 track detection Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 09:39:46 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id i4QGhd0G009434 Resent-Message-ID: <2K9WjC.A.3TC.AlMtAB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54624 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote (some time ago), > See: > > http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Roussetskiapplicatio.pdf > > It is amazing how much researchers can learn from this simple tool. Yes. This is an amazingly powerful and simple technique, that is for sure. Not just because it will detect particles that many types of detectors and meters miss, but also because it gives the experimenter a clear energy spectrum with which to identify the particle. Best of all: Cheaply! It's too bad that every CF researcher hasn't latched on to it. But even more amazing to me are some of the implications of this work. Especially when you combine the implications with a more general problem of CF research - the notorious "lack of gammas" - even secondary gammas, which are absent from most CF experiments. This work explains that to some degree - but few people have taken notice. How far the implications can be extended to cover the "typical CF" D+D reaction is unclear. But an unusual way to optimize the LENR field is implied and surprising, because it goes beyond CF - and maybe that is an unsettling thing because it doesn't necessarily involve electrolysis - so much as a low energy beam. It also may explain why the Farnsworth Fusor is so successful in producing fusion reactions, and it may suggest a way to combine the two techniques. As Roussetski asserts in the original paper - there are two possible explanations for the type of reactions seen. The one that is most convincing to me, considering all the evidence, is: The emission of high-energy neutrons ( > 10 MeV) resulting from some "unknown nuclear reaction." He goes on to say "These processes may be 3d and 4d fusion reactions predicted by A. Takahashi [8]." Matter of fact, if these findings hold up - it appears that a typical CF reaction may not be D+D at all, but D+D+D ! For nearly 15 years, theorists have been grappling with the issue of "coherence" in CF(as in a new kind of 'warm' BEC) - and now a limited version of this idea is appearing to enter the realm of tentative-proof because of the energy spectrum made available through CR-39 track detection. Is much of LENR "stimulated coherence"? That's right - a three (or more) body reaction ! Prior to delving into this, like many who have voiced an opinion on sci.whatever, I had read some of Akito Takahashi's papers but didn't take them too seriously - if only because three-body reactions seemed to be adding another unnecessary layer of complexity to a field already in some degree of theoretical disarray. But three-body reactions are NOT more necessarily more complex, should there be even a small degree of induced *coherence*. In a way, it's too bad that Takahashi isn't more of a self-promoter, as he tends to understate all his findings - and many Americans can take that reticence (which is really more scientific) as meaning that he is not very convinced of his own findings! On thinking a little deeper about the totality of the CF evidence out there, Takahashi's explanation covers the most ground with the least amount of "invented physics" - and in particular, it doesn't demand some absurd kludge like a phonon mediated gradual release of fusion energy (Chubb hypothesis) where 24 million IR photons are said be magically dissipated from a fusion event in a few nanoseconds through wave dynamics. Takahashi's work can avoid this by suggesting that much of the excess energy is carried away by high energy neutrons - which are much more difficult to detect experimentally - Without the CR-39 track detection technique, that is. One might counter that Takahashi also invokes something new - a kind of "warm BEC" but at least there is real physics at the basis of this concept, and the leap of faith is only a few hundred degrees C. If you check out the paper at: www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/TakahashiAstudiesond.pdf and in particular, Fig 7 on page 6, These results suggest that a new type of "coherence" is being stimulated. And, if you look at Fig 6, this seems to indicate that at *lower* beam energy, one can maximize the output of energetic ( 730 keV particles). If 10^12 is really possible, that portends a workable device! But not a 'beam device' which is very inefficient. Yes, There seems to be some problems with this explanation as well, but the one experiment that really *needs* to be performed, seems to be placing a D-loaded target in the focal point of a Farnsworth Fusor, which gives you LOTS of 50 kv deuterons. I think I will propose this to Richard Hull. His Fusor can produce something like 10^5 fusion reactions/second now - and he would probably like to see that increased significantly. Matter of fact, if memory serves, the Fusor breakeven level is around 10^10 reactions/sec ! Is the future of 'cold fusion'... 'warm fusion"? Wouldn't you just love to see some guy in a garage lab (albeit a nice garage lab) be able to do what the $5 billion boondoggle (which is 'hot fusion' ) has failed to do over 40 years of intense research - i.e. reach breakeven. Regards, Jones (on the verge of mental-overload) Like a circle in a spiral Like a wheel within a wheel Never ending or beginning On an ever-spinning reel As the images unwind Like the circles that you find In the windmills of your mind... ---- Mary Isobel Catherine Bernadette O'Brien From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 26 10:17:23 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4QHHI0G019427; Wed, 26 May 2004 10:17:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4QHHI33019413; Wed, 26 May 2004 10:17:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 10:17:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40B4D201.144BFE8C@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 11:21:06 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ockham's razor, Conspiracies, 9/11, Flight 800, and UFOs References: <004a01c4431f$ff333650$5041ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------C79F2A62DBB588FC01C6FC01" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54625 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --------------C79F2A62DBB588FC01C6FC01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think you hit the nail on the head, Mike. The issue being discussed here rests mainly on how the mind works. The value of the scientific method has been to circumvent this limitation to some extent. However, even this method is not applied properly by some minds with the result that reality is ignored or distorted. In fact, only a small fraction of the population are sane in that they are even marginally in contact with reality. Unfortunately, the fraction at the leadership level is even smaller. We see evidence for this fact almost everywhere we turn these days. Since it is impossible to communicate with a mind that can not process reality, such discussions as we have witnessed here are a waste of time. By the way, one of the best books on the subject of UFOs is "UFOs & Abductions" edited by David Jacobs, Univ. of Kansas Press 2000. This book explores the subject from every angle and gives a very rational evaluation. It is available from Amazon.com. Ed Mike Carrell wrote: > The discussion itself is an interesting exercise in human data > analysis, which relates indirectly to arguments over LENR, BLP, ZPE, > PAGD, Aetherometry, UFOs, etc. Before anyone gets offended by being > included in this list, it is simply a list of topics about which > there are debates about observation and admissible > evidence. Ockham's razor is frequently invoked and misapplied. The > principle that the simplest statement of relationship among a set of > data being the most likely correct is sound. The unspoken corollary > is what data are included in the "universe of discourse". The > selection of data is judgmental, human, and prone to prejudice while > the discussion of the 'accepted' data can be logical and rigorous, > having the semblance of 'truth'. So we have in the case of the WTC > attacks, a set of interpretations of images. John Berry persists in > 'seeing what he sees' while not understanding the technical analysis > of the whole imaging process offered by several members of this > forum. That knowledge must be admitted to the 'universe of > discourse', for his argument is based on a small set of images which > may be doctored or misinterpreted. The WTC events are integral > members of a larger set of data, which include the attack on the > Pentagon, and the "Let's Roll" plane where passengers overcame the > hijackers and forced a crash in farmland far from Washington. Those > events were widely narrated by cell phone calls from passengers, who > knew they would die, to their wives and family. Trying to frame a > conspiracy which includes all the available data strains > credulity. Curiously, the Flight 800 conspiracy theory has the > opposite twist; instead of a secret government plot to cause the > attack, the plot is to conceal that Flight 800 was brought down by a > shoulder fired missile launched from a boat in Long Island Sound. > Presumably a terrorist attack, disinformation during an election > year made it seem that all was safe. My take on why people "believe > in" conspiracies, or 'anything' for that matter is that it is rooted > in a fundamental property of our nervous system, that of ***pattern > recognition***. This is fundamental to all modes of perception, and > of cognition. It is essential for survival. It is the only way to > cope with an essentially chaotic world; we find patterns, patterns, > patterns. We see constellations in the random scattering of stars, > hear voices in the noise of the surf, etc. A corollary, also rooted > in biology, is the separation of the world into US and THEM on the > slightest excuse. The root is in the cell, which conducts its > "inside" chemistry isolated from the "outside", and in the immune > system which catalogs everything that 'belongs' in a growing infant > and thereafter seeks to destroy all invaders. So, faced with a shock > such as 9/11, one desperately seeks an acceptable 'reason why' that > fits with pre-existing patterns. Data that do not fit are > ignored. As for UFOs, I suggest interested parties dig into Greer's > Disclosure Project. So far as I can tell, he has done the most > credible job of collecting and evaluating evidence, and testimony > from credible witnesses. The witnesses, which can be seen on tape, > are people with substantial credentials for technical ability and > 'being there'. If you want a evidence of systematic cover-up and > disinformation extending over decades, it is in Greer's collection. > The evidence does not stop there, it extends to paintings centuries > old including detailed depiction of flying artifacts which we would > immediately classify with current UFOs. In Greer's view, one major > barrier to public disclosure is a concern for a culture shock that > would destabilize society and commerce with official revelation -- > not on my watch, please. Who wants official recognition of humanity > as a primitive, technically undeveloped civilization, studiously > blind to evidence of the existence of advanced energy and propulsion > technologies and smug in conviction that we **really ** understand > how the universe works? Another view is covert contact has been > going on, but the devices in hand belong to a technology level > beyond our horizon: fiddling with them may be extremely dangerous > and having that knowledge loose in our xenophobic world may make our > worries about nuclear technology seem petty by comparison. Mike > Carrell --------------C79F2A62DBB588FC01C6FC01 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think you hit the nail on the head, Mike.  The issue being discussed here rests mainly on how  the mind works.  The value of the scientific method has been to circumvent this limitation to some extent.  However, even this method is not applied properly by some minds with the result that reality is ignored or distorted.  In fact, only a small fraction of the population are sane in that they are even marginally in contact with reality.  Unfortunately, the fraction at the leadership level is even smaller.  We see evidence for this fact almost everywhere we turn these days.  Since it is impossible to communicate with a mind that can not process reality, such discussions as we have witnessed here are a waste of time.

By the way, one of the best books on the subject of UFOs is "UFOs & Abductions" edited by David Jacobs, Univ. of Kansas Press 2000.  This book explores the subject from every angle and gives a very rational evaluation.  It is available from Amazon.com.

Ed

Mike Carrell wrote:

The discussion itself is an interesting exercise in human data analysis, which relates indirectly to arguments over LENR, BLP, ZPE, PAGD, Aetherometry, UFOs, etc. Before anyone gets offended by being included in this list, it is simply a list of topics about which there are debates about observation and admissible evidence. Ockham's razor is frequently invoked and misapplied. The principle that the simplest statement of relationship among a set of data being the most likely correct is sound. The unspoken corollary is what data are included in the "universe of discourse". The selection of data is judgmental, human, and prone to prejudice while the discussion of the 'accepted' data can be logical and rigorous, having the semblance of 'truth'. So we have in the case of the WTC attacks, a set of interpretations of images. John Berry persists in 'seeing what he sees' while not understanding the technical analysis of the whole imaging process offered by several members of this forum. That knowledge must be admitted to the 'universe of discourse', for his argument is based on a small set of images which may be doctored or misinterpreted. The WTC events are integral members of a larger set of data, which include the attack on the Pentagon, and the "Let's Roll" plane where passengers overcame the hijackers and forced a crash in farmland far from Washington. Those events were widely narrated by cell phone calls from passengers, who knew they would die, to their wives and family. Trying to frame a conspiracy which includes all the available data strains credulity. Curiously, the Flight 800 conspiracy theory has the opposite twist; instead of a secret government plot to cause the attack, the plot is to conceal that Flight 800 was brought down by a shoulder fired missile launched from a boat in Long Island Sound. Presumably a terrorist attack, disinformation during an election year made it seem that all was safe. My take on why people "believe in" conspiracies, or 'anything' for that matter is that it is rooted in a fundamental property of our nervous system, that of ***pattern recognition***. This is fundamental to all modes of perception, and of cognition. It is essential for survival. It is the only way to cope with an essentially chaotic world; we find patterns, patterns, patterns. We see constellations in the random scattering of stars, hear voices in the noise of the surf, etc. A corollary, also rooted in biology, is the separation of the world into US and THEM on the slightest excuse. The root is in the cell, which conducts its "inside" chemistry isolated from the "outside", and in the immune system which catalogs everything that 'belongs' in a growing infant and thereafter seeks to destroy all invaders. So, faced with a shock such as 9/11, one desperately seeks an acceptable 'reason why' that fits with pre-existing patterns. Data that do not fit are ignored. As for UFOs, I suggest interested parties dig into Greer's Disclosure Project. So far as I can tell, he has done the most credible job of collecting and evaluating evidence, and testimony from credible witnesses. The witnesses, which can be seen on tape, are people with substantial credentials for technical ability and 'being there'. If you want a evidence of systematic cover-up and disinformation extending over decades, it is in Greer's collection. The evidence does not stop there, it extends to paintings centuries old including detailed depiction of flying artifacts which we would immediately classify with current UFOs. In Greer's view, one major barrier to public disclosure is a concern for a culture shock that would destabilize society and commerce with official revelation -- not on my watch, please. Who wants official recognition of humanity as a primitive, technically undeveloped civilization, studiously blind to evidence of the existence of advanced energy and propulsion technologies and smug in conviction that we **really ** understand how the universe works? Another view is covert contact has been going on, but the devices in hand belong to a technology level beyond our horizon: fiddling with them may be extremely dangerous and having that knowledge loose in our xenophobic world may make our worries about nuclear technology seem petty by comparison. Mike Carrell
--------------C79F2A62DBB588FC01C6FC01-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 26 10:31:44 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4QHVe0G025380; Wed, 26 May 2004 10:31:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4QHVdvM025358; Wed, 26 May 2004 10:31:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 10:31:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40B4D479.9030202@ihug.co.nz> Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 05:31:37 +1200 From: John Berry User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ockham's razor, Conspiracies, 9/11, Flight 800, and UFOs References: <004a01c4431f$ff333650$5041ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <004a01c4431f$ff333650$5041ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54626 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: > The discussion itself is an interesting exercise in human data > analysis, which relates indirectly to arguments over LENR, BLP, ZPE, > PAGD, Aetherometry, UFOs, etc. Before anyone gets offended by being > included in this list, it is simply a list of topics about which > there are debates about observation and admissible evidence. > > Ockham's razor is frequently invoked and misapplied. The principle > that the simplest statement of relationship among a set of data being > the most likely correct is sound. Yes, it also depends on how simple is defined. (Going to extreme measures assuming multiple highly unlikely yet simple explanations (debunking) instead of one more exotic explanation that better fits the evidence) And in the end Ockhams Razor only tells you the obvious "simple explanations are more likely" and nothing more. It's a gamble, sometimes the less simple seemingly less likely explanation is true. > The unspoken corollary is what data are included in the "universe of > discourse". The selection of data is judgmental, human, and prone to > prejudice while the discussion of the 'accepted' data can be logical > and rigorous, having the semblance of 'truth'. > > So we have in the case of the WTC attacks, a set of interpretations of > images. John Berry persists in 'seeing what he sees' while not > understanding the technical analysis of the whole imaging process > offered by several members of this forum. I have considered all the opinions, but none have been rational. mpeg compression artifacts can not explain something of the size and persistence seen in the images. Nor can reflections or other lighting changes, for one the pod is in the wrong place, and secondly it would not work from the multiple angles captured, nor would any of these explain a white missile like projectile that moves faster than the plane or a bright fireball which not only makes no sense as they aren't putting explosives in the nose of passenger plane but is further more in the wrong place (not where the nose hits). It is in line with the pod. > That knowledge must be admitted to the 'universe of discourse', for > his argument is based on a small set of images 4 or more videos, I don't have time to count them all right now. > which may be doctored Not possible unless you believe some massive conspiracy within the media that is more absurd than anything I am suggesting. > or misinterpreted. Perhaps. But it's hard to misinterpret a pod, a white projectile, a fire ball. These things speak for themselves, it is trying to see reflections, mpeg artifacts and sun flares instead of what is plainly obvious. > The WTC events are integral members of a larger set of data, which > include the attack on the Pentagon, and the "Let's Roll" plane where > passengers overcame the hijackers and forced a crash in farmland far > from Washington. Those events were widely narrated by cell phone calls > from passengers, who knew they would die, to their wives and family. > Trying to frame a conspiracy which includes all the available data > strains credulity. Actually it doesn't. Here is a link that explains why the phone calls couldn't have been made: http://www.prisonplanet.com/planes_of_911_exceeded_their_software_limits.htm You are falling in the trap of believing that because you don't know of any evidence, you believe it can not exist. However you have not actually looked into such issues to see if such evidence exists. Much more evidence exists but it is beyond the scope of this discussion. This discussion isn't even regarding who orchestrated 911, but simply the presence of a pod and missiles. Just because you don't understand how or why doesn't stop the pod (and missile) from being clearly seen on the video. > > Curiously, the Flight 800 conspiracy theory has the opposite twist; > instead of a secret government plot to cause the attack, the plot is > to conceal that Flight 800 was brought down by a shoulder fired > missile launched from a boat in Long Island Sound. Presumably a > terrorist attack, disinformation during an election year made it seem > that all was safe. Actually the evidence for TWA 800 strongly indicates that it was an accident involving a drone: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/CRASH/TWA/twa.html http://www.rense.com/political/drone.htm Either way whatever caused the crash, the official explanation is simply absurd. > > My take on why people "believe in" conspiracies, or 'anything' for > that matter is that it is rooted in a fundamental property of our > nervous system, that of ***pattern recognition***. This is fundamental > to all modes of perception, and of cognition. It is essential for > survival. It is the only way to cope with an essentially chaotic > world; we find patterns, patterns, patterns. I think people try and project patterns far too much, make absolute statements where they shouldn't. > We see constellations in the random scattering of stars, hear voices > in the noise of the surf, etc. A corollary, also rooted in biology, is > the separation of the world into US and THEM on the slightest excuse. > The root is in the cell, which conducts its "inside" chemistry > isolated from the "outside", and in the immune system which catalogs > everything that 'belongs' in a growing infant and thereafter seeks to > destroy all invaders. > > So, faced with a shock such as 9/11, one desperately seeks an > acceptable 'reason why' that fits with pre-existing patterns. Data > that do not fit are ignored. Yes indeed. People that didn't want to believe it's a conspiracy didn't, those that did want to believe did. I'm an exception, I strongly wanted not to believe and tried to ignore until I could no longer honestly hold my comfortable view that it was just the work of some crazies. Alas most people are less honest with themselves (or a more hard headed finding it more difficult to change their view on something). > > As for UFOs, I suggest interested parties dig into Greer's Disclosure > Project. So far as I can tell, he has done the most credible job of > collecting and evaluating evidence, and testimony from credible > witnesses. The witnesses, which can be seen on tape, are people with > substantial credentials for technical ability and 'being there'. If > you want a evidence of systematic cover-up and disinformation > extending over decades, it is in Greer's collection. The evidence does > not stop there, it extends to paintings centuries old including > detailed depiction of flying artifacts which we would immediately > classify with current UFOs. In Greer's view, one major barrier to > public disclosure is a concern for a culture shock that would > destabilize society and commerce with official revelation -- not on my > watch, please. Who wants official recognition of humanity as a > primitive, technically undeveloped civilization, studiously blind to > evidence of the existence of advanced energy and propulsion > technologies and smug in conviction that we **really ** understand how > the universe works? Another view is covert contact has been going on, > but the devices in hand belong to a technology level beyond our > horizon: fiddling with them may be extremely dangerous and having that > knowledge loose in our xenophobic world may make our worries about > nuclear technology seem petty by comparison. > > Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 26 10:48:27 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4QHmKoH023219; Wed, 26 May 2004 10:48:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4QHmIXe023198; Wed, 26 May 2004 10:48:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 10:48:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40B4D85B.1080609@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 13:48:11 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ockham's razor, Conspiracies, 9/11, Flight 800, and UFOs References: <004a01c4431f$ff333650$5041ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <40B4D479.9030202@ihug.co.nz> In-Reply-To: <40B4D479.9030202@ihug.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54627 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > Actually it doesn't. > Here is a link that explains why the phone calls couldn't have been made: > http://www.prisonplanet.com/planes_of_911_exceeded_their_software_limits.htm Go back to the link you cited. Read the response by Xenon. As a licensed professional engineer who designs radio systems I can confirm that Xenon is correct. Regards, Terry Blanton, PE GA License #019616 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 26 11:16:06 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4QIFpoH001683; Wed, 26 May 2004 11:15:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4QIFoUH001660; Wed, 26 May 2004 11:15:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 11:15:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40B4DECF.6090900@ihug.co.nz> Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 06:15:43 +1200 From: John Berry User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ockham's razor, Conspiracies, 9/11, Flight 800, and UFOs References: <004a01c4431f$ff333650$5041ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <40B4D479.9030202@ihug.co.nz> <40B4D85B.1080609@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: <40B4D85B.1080609@rtpatlanta.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54628 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I found that page with a quick search of Google, I was actually trying to locate a different article. There is other interesting info though about the G limits of the planes in question. I might look for the info regarding the call later. But even if the call was real so what? It doesn't change anything. Terry Blanton wrote: > John Berry wrote: > >> Actually it doesn't. >> Here is a link that explains why the phone calls couldn't have been >> made: >> http://www.prisonplanet.com/planes_of_911_exceeded_their_software_limits.htm > > > > > > Go back to the link you cited. Read the response by Xenon. > > As a licensed professional engineer who designs radio systems I can > confirm that Xenon is correct. > > Regards, > > Terry Blanton, PE > GA License #019616 > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 26 11:16:09 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4QIG0oH001772; Wed, 26 May 2004 11:16:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4QIFvS4001740; Wed, 26 May 2004 11:15:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 11:15:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: "Johnson, Steven" To: "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" Cc: "Johnson, Steven" Subject: RE: Ockham's razor, Conspiracies, 9/11, Flight 800, and UFOs Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 13:15:45 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-PMX-Version: 4.6.0.99824, Antispam-Core: 4.6.0.99824, Antispam-Data: 2004.5.26.101594 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54629 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Edmund Storms [mailto:storms2@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 12:21 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ockham's razor, Conspiracies, 9/11, Flight 800, and UFOs Greetings, Dr. Storms, ... > By the way, one of the best books on the subject of UFOs is > "UFOs & Abductions" edited by David Jacobs, Univ. of Kansas > Press 2000. This book explores the subject from every angle > and gives a very rational evaluation. It is available from > Amazon.com. > Ed I think it's important to point out that UFO Abduction author/researchers such as David Jacobs and Bud Hopkins have formulated personal theories concerning the controversial abduction experience. From what I've read they believe that "abductions", to a significant extent, are physically experienced encounters. Others, like Dr. John E. Mack explore a broader approach where alternate realities, universes, altered states of consciousness play pivotal roles in the construction of the classic abduction experience. Personally, I suspect both theories probably have an element of truth to them. However, to what percentage the classic abduction experience is physical versus psychic, it's still an unsolved mystery! As for me, on extremely rare occasions I've experienced what clinically has been called the "lucid dream" experience. It's easy for me to consider the possibility that alternate realities and states of consciousness DO exist and are definitely worth exploring. But I'm getting way off topic here... Since we are recommending good books to read on the controversial subject of UFOs I'll add my two cents. For those of you who can find it I think many will enjoy reading: Forbidden Science: Journals, 1957-1969 Author: Jacques F. Vallee Copyright 1992 For a brief review, check out: http://authors.booksunderreview.com/V/Vallee,_Jacques_F./ This is one person's private journals on how he came to the realization that the United States Air Force was using Project Blue Book primarily as a public relations front to dismiss UFO reports while they were simultaneously redirecting the more interesting reports down black holes - to departments unknown. He ought to know. Jacques was personally involved with Dr. J Allen Hyneck's unsuccessful efforts to get to the bottom of the mystery. I've read the book several times. I'll probably read it again in another couple of years. Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 26 11:32:34 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4QIWO0G015384; Wed, 26 May 2004 11:32:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4QIWEOs015302; Wed, 26 May 2004 11:32:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 11:32:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40B4E2A8.1060004@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 14:32:08 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ockham's razor, Conspiracies, 9/11, Flight 800, and UFOs References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------010901050804060700030303" Resent-Message-ID: <4bCGoB.A.CvD.uKOtAB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54630 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010901050804060700030303 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Johnson, Steven wrote: >-----Original Message----- >From: Edmund Storms [mailto:storms2@ix.netcom.com] >Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 12:21 PM >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Subject: Re: Ockham's razor, Conspiracies, 9/11, Flight 800, and UFOs > >Greetings, Dr. Storms, > >... > > > >>By the way, one of the best books on the subject of UFOs is >>"UFOs & Abductions" edited by David Jacobs, Univ. of Kansas >>Press 2000. This book explores the subject from every angle >>and gives a very rational evaluation. It is available from >>Amazon.com. >>Ed >> >> > >I think it's important to point out that UFO Abduction author/researchers >such as David Jacobs and Bud Hopkins have formulated personal theories >concerning the controversial abduction experience. > Hmmm. I wonder what youse two guys think about Dr. Jacobs' latest book, "The Threat": http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0684848139/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-8171710-1716807#reader-link --------------010901050804060700030303 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Johnson, Steven wrote:
-----Original Message-----
From: Edmund Storms [mailto:storms2@ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 12:21 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Ockham's razor, Conspiracies, 9/11, Flight 800, and UFOs

Greetings, Dr. Storms,

...

  
By the way, one of the best books on the subject of UFOs is 
"UFOs & Abductions" edited by David Jacobs, Univ. of Kansas 
Press 2000.  This book explores the subject from every angle 
and gives a very rational evaluation.  It is available from 
Amazon.com. 
Ed 
    

I think it's important to point out that UFO Abduction author/researchers
such as David Jacobs and Bud Hopkins have formulated personal theories
concerning the controversial abduction experience.


Hmmm.  I wonder what youse two guys think about Dr. Jacobs' latest book,  "The Threat":

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0684848139/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-8171710-1716807#reader-link

<evil grin>

--------------010901050804060700030303-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 26 11:32:45 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4QIWX0G015482; Wed, 26 May 2004 11:32:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4QIWRvW015417; Wed, 26 May 2004 11:32:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 11:32:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40B4E2BA.3010307@ihug.co.nz> Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 06:32:26 +1200 From: John Berry User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ockham's razor, Conspiracies, 9/11, Flight 800, and UFOs References: <004a01c4431f$ff333650$5041ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <40B4D479.9030202@ihug.co.nz> <40B4D85B.1080609@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: <40B4D85B.1080609@rtpatlanta.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <0eVg9.A.1wD.7KOtAB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54631 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Read this: http://physics911.org/net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=7 Terry Blanton wrote: > John Berry wrote: > >> Actually it doesn't. >> Here is a link that explains why the phone calls couldn't have been >> made: >> http://www.prisonplanet.com/planes_of_911_exceeded_their_software_limits.htm > > > > > > Go back to the link you cited. Read the response by Xenon. > > As a licensed professional engineer who designs radio systems I can > confirm that Xenon is correct. > > Regards, > > Terry Blanton, PE > GA License #019616 > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 26 11:43:39 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4QIhQoH012858; Wed, 26 May 2004 11:43:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4QIhOF3012828; Wed, 26 May 2004 11:43:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 11:43:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40B4E544.2040801@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 14:43:16 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ockham's razor, Conspiracies, 9/11, Flight 800, and UFOs References: <004a01c4431f$ff333650$5041ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <40B4D479.9030202@ihug.co.nz> <40B4D85B.1080609@rtpatlanta.com> <40B4DECF.6090900@ihug.co.nz> In-Reply-To: <40B4DECF.6090900@ihug.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54632 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > It doesn't change anything. No offense, but I seriously doubt any evidence will, from you perspective. As I learned during the many years that I moderated CompuServe's UFO forum for the Mutual UFO Network (MUFON), personal proof is quite subjective. Once an individual has his mind made up, no amount of evidence will likely change their mind. I am only arguing with you for the fun of it. . As a s(k)eptic friend on the forum once admitted: "I doubt I would believe we are being visited by aliens even if a flying saucer landed on the lawn and an alien came inside my house and bit me on the ass." BTW, it was on *that* forum that I met Chris Tinsley; and *he* who talked me into joining Vortex. (Did you know that Chris claimed to be a lycanthrope? :-) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 26 11:48:34 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4QImQoH015081; Wed, 26 May 2004 11:48:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4QImPTS015059; Wed, 26 May 2004 11:48:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 11:48:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40B4E673.7040303@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 14:48:19 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ockham's razor, Conspiracies, 9/11, Flight 800, and UFOs References: <004a01c4431f$ff333650$5041ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <40B4D479.9030202@ihug.co.nz> <40B4D85B.1080609@rtpatlanta.com> <40B4E2BA.3010307@ihug.co.nz> In-Reply-To: <40B4E2BA.3010307@ihug.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54633 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > Read this: > > http://physics911.org/net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=7 No one claimed it was reliable. Cellular systems are not designed to operate in aircraft; however, they will sometimes. There is also a legal issue regarding transmitting from that height. Many factors will determine how and when you can make such a connection. Your citation claimed it was impossible. It is not. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 26 11:58:04 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4QIvw0G025511; Wed, 26 May 2004 11:57:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4QIvuqj025476; Wed, 26 May 2004 11:57:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 11:57:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40B4E998.D8EE6A23@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 13:01:45 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ockham's razor, Conspiracies, 9/11, Flight 800, and UFOs References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54634 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: "Johnson, Steven" wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: Edmund Storms [mailto:storms2@ix.netcom.com] > Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 12:21 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Ockham's razor, Conspiracies, 9/11, Flight 800, and UFOs > > Greetings, Dr. Storms, > > ... > > > By the way, one of the best books on the subject of UFOs is > > "UFOs & Abductions" edited by David Jacobs, Univ. of Kansas > > Press 2000. This book explores the subject from every angle > > and gives a very rational evaluation. It is available from > > Amazon.com. > > Ed > > I think it's important to point out that UFO Abduction author/researchers > such as David Jacobs and Bud Hopkins have formulated personal theories > concerning the controversial abduction experience. From what I've read they > believe that "abductions", to a significant extent, are physically > experienced encounters. Others, like Dr. John E. Mack explore a broader > approach where alternate realities, universes, altered states of > consciousness play pivotal roles in the construction of the classic > abduction experience. I have also heard that Dr. Mack has introduced these other explanations into the discussion. However, the chapter he wrote in the book I cite contains none of this. He says that his work shows the same reality that Jacobs and Hopkins have independently seen. > Personally, I suspect both theories probably have an > element of truth to them. However, to what percentage the classic abduction > experience is physical versus psychic, it's still an unsolved mystery! According to the statements made by serious and educated people who have studied the effect, the abduction experience is based on a real physical event but the interpretation by the experiencer is highly distorted because the aliens modify mental perception in ways that are only now being explored. Some of this kind of interaction that is being studied by medical researchers is described in the book. Life just keeps getting stranger and stranger. Of course, people with mental problems can believe that an abduction happened but is only part of their imagination. People who study the effect take great pains to eliminate such false claims. > > > As for me, on extremely rare occasions I've experienced what clinically has > been called the "lucid dream" experience. It's easy for me to consider the > possibility that alternate realities and states of consciousness DO exist > and are definitely worth exploring. But I'm getting way off topic here... The problem we all have to confront is how much of these altered mental states is caused by the mind using its imagination and how much is unconventional contact with a normally invisible aspect of our physical reality. For what its worth, I agree with you that our physical reality is much more complex than we presently understand and that some aspects can be contacted in "unconventional" ways through the mind. > > > Since we are recommending good books to read on the controversial subject of > UFOs I'll add my two cents. For those of you who can find it I think many > will enjoy reading: > > Forbidden Science: > Journals, 1957-1969 > Author: Jacques F. Vallee > Copyright 1992 > > For a brief review, check out: > http://authors.booksunderreview.com/V/Vallee,_Jacques_F./ > > This is one person's private journals on how he came to the realization that > the United States Air Force was using Project Blue Book primarily as a > public relations front to dismiss UFO reports while they were simultaneously > redirecting the more interesting reports down black holes - to departments > unknown. He ought to know. Jacques was personally involved with Dr. J Allen > Hyneck's unsuccessful efforts to get to the bottom of the mystery. An excellent recommendation. Regards, Ed > > > I've read the book several times. I'll probably read it again in another > couple of years. > > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 26 12:04:18 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4QJ3koH022405; Wed, 26 May 2004 12:03:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4QJ3hkd022365; Wed, 26 May 2004 12:03:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 12:03:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Ockham's razor, Conspiracies, 9/11, Flight 800, and UFOs Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 15:30:29 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <004a01c4431f$ff333650$5041ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54635 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Mike. you write: >The discussion itself is an interesting exercise in human data analysis, > which relates indirectly to arguments over LENR, BLP, ZPE, PAGD, Aetherometry -snip- With one notable exception. All the above are amenable to ongoing experimentation. Anyone can obtain copies of the experimental research, construct the necessary apparatus, and (hopefully) reproduce the results. Obviously this can prove difficult in practice, but still possible. In the case of John's missile, no further data can be accumulated. The event was a "one-off" and cannot be replicated. John's posts reminded me of the "face on mars" controversy. Here's this photographic evidence, and with some computer enhancement all sorts of experts claim to see evidence of artificial structure. Anyone who says otherwise is clearly part of the conspiracy. Even after NASA images the site with great resolution, and clearly shows the "face" to be a hill, there are still the faithful. The part that hurts is that real life will likely be found on mars, and in fact may already have been found by the new generation of robotic rovers. But thanks to all the bullshit surrounding the face, people are much more skeptical than they should be concerning (microbial) life on the red planet. Which is the true damage that conspiracy theories do, they undercut the accurate accounting of the twin forces of ignorance and opportunism which make up so much of the political world. Frankly John, the conspiracy theories of the 90's were so much more charming. Remember how the UN was going to take over the USA? Black helicopters swooping down on the heartland, gun confiscations and blue helmeted UN troops marching down main street. All at the direction of ( and this is the bit that always sent me into great ringing peals of laughter ) Kofi Annan. Yup, Kofi Annan, the new world dictator. Right. I think John's difficulty gaining traction for his conspiracy is a simple marketing problem. Try changing the name from "Bush" to "Clinton" and I'm sure most people will come around to your new conspiracy. After all, we've spent close to an order of magnitude more money investigating Bill Clintons sex life than we have 911. Remember, 4 legs good, 2 legs bad... I will remind John that there is plenty he could be talking about concerning our current leadership and it's blundering; that he chooses to focus on a bullshit conspiracy while Rome burns puts him squarely on the side of the "evildoers", as Shrub likes to say. K. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 26 12:18:27 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4QJIM0G001440; Wed, 26 May 2004 12:18:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4QJILmq001423; Wed, 26 May 2004 12:18:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 12:18:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20040526150131.02017d28@mail.lenr-canr.org> X-Sender: logs@lenr-canr.org@mail.lenr-canr.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 15:18:20 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Ockham's razor, Conspiracies, 9/11, Flight 800, and UFOs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54636 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Terry Blanton writes: > As a s(k)eptic friend on the forum once admitted: > > "I doubt I would believe we are being visited by aliens even if a flying > saucer landed on the lawn and an alien came inside my house and bit me > on the ass." This raises an interesting point. My mother was an expert in public opinion research at the Census Bureau. She used to say that anyone, no matter how objective, will have subjective feelings and fixed ideas about some subjects. She said that she herself, for example, would never be convinced there are innate differences in IQ between people of different races, even if someone were to came up with bullet-proof scientific evidence. "It is simply out of the question; nothing would convince me," she said. I doubt any combination of evidence that would convince me that all positive CF results are due to errors or fraud. As a corollary, she said people can be emotional about nearly any subject. You never can tell what will set them off. Early in her career, in the 1940s, she was assigned to go door-to-door asking people about food choices, especially whether they liked potatoes. She asked one woman, "what is your favorite potato recipe?" The woman burst into tears. She had to sit down at the kitchen table and compose herself before she could speak again. It turned out that her husband had died recently, and his favorite recipe was a potato dish. > BTW, it was on *that* forum that I met Chris Tinsley; and *he* who > talked me into joining Vortex. > > (Did you know that Chris claimed to be a lycanthrope? :-) I wouldn't put it past him. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 26 12:41:49 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4QJfh0G007384; Wed, 26 May 2004 12:41:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4QJffI6007363; Wed, 26 May 2004 12:41:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 12:41:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40B4F2D4.3010003@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 15:41:08 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ockham's razor, Conspiracies, 9/11, Flight 800, and UFOs References: <6.0.3.0.2.20040526150131.02017d28@mail.lenr-canr.org> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040526150131.02017d28@mail.lenr-canr.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54637 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Terry Blanton writes: > > > As a s(k)eptic friend on the forum once admitted: > My mother was an expert in public opinion research at the Census > Bureau. She used to say that anyone, no matter how objective, will > have subjective feelings and fixed ideas about some subjects. She said > that she herself, for example, would never be convinced there are > innate differences in IQ between people of different races, even if > someone were to came up with bullet-proof scientific evidence. "It is > simply out of the question; nothing would convince me," she said. Sounds like a brilliant woman. Were you adopted? ;-) It would have been interesting to see her debate the issue with Bill Shockley. > > (Did you know that Chris claimed to be a lycanthrope? :-) > > I wouldn't put it past him. Reminds me. Did anyone contact Sue Seddon about Gene? I've lost contact with her. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 26 13:34:39 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4QKYRoH021217; Wed, 26 May 2004 13:34:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4QKYLDV021176; Wed, 26 May 2004 13:34:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 13:34:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20040526154733.02016d18@mail.lenr-canr.org> X-Sender: logs@lenr-canr.org@mail.lenr-canr.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 16:34:20 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Ockham's razor, Conspiracies, 9/11, Flight 800, and UFOs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54638 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Terry Blanton writes: > > My mother . . . said > > that she herself, for example, would never be convinced there are > > innate differences in IQ between people of different races, even if > > someone were to came up with bullet-proof scientific evidence. "It is > > simply out of the question; nothing would convince me," she said. . . . > It would have been interesting to see her debate the issue with Bill > Shockley. She would have cut him into tiny quivering little pieces. She would have pointed out, for example, that in the 1970s when air travel from Africa was still expensive, black African immigrants to the United States scored among the highest IQs, native or immigrant. It was a brain drain of third-world talent. It is still going on. Shockley is a prime example of an expert in one field who thinks he understands other fields. Most of the quotes in the book "The Experts Speak" are from similar self-appointed experts. Here is a famous example: "This is the biggest fool thing we have ever done. . . . The bomb will never go off, and I speak as an expert in explosives." - Adm. William Leahy, advising President Truman on the atomic bomb project. I suppose Leahy really was an expert in the conventional explosives used in navy guns, but evidently he knew nothing about nuclear physics. And the basic information was not hard to come by. By 1940 it was common knowledge among physicists that a nuclear chain reaction is possible. Physicists in Japan were not surprised when the bombs were used against them. Government officials contacted them by telephone before Truman's broadcast. Based on fragmentary reports, the scientists said, "that has to be an atomic bomb." Within weeks they secretly circulated detailed papers describing the likely size, critical mass, composition and reaction paths of the bombs, based on the radiation they measured and the fallout they collected. They knew that two different types had been used. I recall they soon figured out the gist of the implosion design. U.S. military officials would have been horrified at how much the Japanese had learned. (And U.S. physicists would probably have said: "What would you expect? Of course they figured it out!") > Reminds me. Did anyone contact Sue Seddon about Gene? I've lost > contact with her. I sent e-mail to sooseddon@fsmail.net, but it bounced back. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 26 14:05:01 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4QL4v0G003975; Wed, 26 May 2004 14:04:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4QL4uTR003958; Wed, 26 May 2004 14:04:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 14:04:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Dean Miller To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ockham's razor, Conspiracies, 9/11, Flight 800, and UFOs Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 16:05:23 -0500 Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: <7b1ab01kpd8rpfe3ka5nmu57eberdd0c6p@4ax.com> References: <004a01c4431f$ff333650$5041ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <40B4D479.9030202@ihug.co.nz> <40B4D85B.1080609@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: <40B4D85B.1080609@rtpatlanta.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-RAVMilter-Version: 8.4.3(snapshot 20030212) (MidIowa1.midiowa.net) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id i4QL4l0G003889 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54639 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Terry, On Wed, 26 May 2004 13:48:11 -0400, "Terry Blanton" wrote: >Go back to the link you cited. Read the response by Xenon. > >As a licensed professional engineer who designs radio systems I can >confirm that Xenon is correct. Did you not read this reply? ************************************ Cell phone hypothesis Testing has been done on this already, the link to the results are on the link below. I am a senior design RF cell phone engineer ( cellular/CDMA engineer) and have designed systems for Sprint, Verizon and Alltel. I have 2 FCC licenses and have worked in the industry for 13 yrs. That out of the way... OK all of the new handsets are .6 to 1 watt max. From what i read several calls were made on flight 93 some were reported to last as long as 20 minutes. NO WAY ! We design these systems to work on the ground, usually providing "downtilt" to the antenna, so the signal gets pointed downward. [That's a very important point!! dtm] There are calculations to do this. The range for a call site is 5 to 20 miles max, but that is on the ground. The handshaking is now refered to in digital as soft handoff, or hard handoff if you are going between systems, or in an analog mode. most phones today are now digital, though some can do both. for a handoff to occur( going from one cell to another) the system needs to have a neighbor list setup, telling the phone which cell is next on the list( i have made around 100 of these). at 500mph, the phone would have passed several sites and it would try to handoff to a site already passed. The phone can be in handoff with up to 3 sites at one time, but generally this can make things worse as it will degrade the signal. Also inside of a metal plane, the signal degrades ( it does in a car, or building by 3 to 6 db or more). I have done in building testing for years. each 3 db means 1/2 power. inside a metal plane i would guess it would be about the same, if you stick the antenna next to a window, MAYBE only 1 to 2 bd loss, but still a loss. i havent tested it, but i have a lot of experience in this area. Note there is a lot of messaging between the phone and the site, and at that height the signal would be quite low and the phone would get confused as to which site it is on. I dont know the height the plane was at that time, but the higher it is, the more signals come in, which degrades the quality and confuses the phone more, not to mention lowering the signal level. 1 more thing, in remote areas, where these calls were made i believe, these companies do not build many sites. The sites cost 1/2 million a peice or so. Just try driving from 1 city to another through a very rural area and see if your phone works, we point the antennas down the highways to get the most out of each site. Planes do not fly along highways. when i first heard this, it didnt add up in my head. http://feralnews.com/issues/911/dewdney/index.html airplane testing http://feralnews.com/issues/911/dewdney/media_release_030304.html results http://feralnews.com/issues/911/dewdney/project_achilles_report_2_030225.html Brad Mayeux cdmaman@engineer.com my engineering page http://www.geocities.com/RF_man_CDMA/ ************************************ -- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 26 14:33:59 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4QLX4oH007462; Wed, 26 May 2004 14:33:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4QLWPLD007287; Wed, 26 May 2004 14:32:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 14:32:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40B50D99.97B07851@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 15:35:21 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ockham's razor, Conspiracies, 9/11, Flight 800, and UFOs References: <40B4E2A8.1060004@rtpatlanta.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------FD94624F97EFF6674ABB8222" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54640 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --------------FD94624F97EFF6674ABB8222 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Terry Blanton wrote: > Johnson, Steven wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Edmund Storms [mailto:storms2@ix.netcom.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 12:21 PM >> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> Subject: Re: Ockham's razor, Conspiracies, 9/11, Flight 800, and >> UFOs >> >> Greetings, Dr. Storms, >> >> ... >> >> >> > By the way, one of the best books on the subject of UFOs is >> > "UFOs & Abductions" edited by David Jacobs, Univ. of Kansas >> > Press 2000. This book explores the subject from every angle >> > and gives a very rational evaluation. It is available from >> > Amazon.com. >> > Ed >> > >> I think it's important to point out that UFO Abduction >> author/researchers >> such as David Jacobs and Bud Hopkins have formulated personal >> theories >> concerning the controversial abduction experience. >> > Hmmm. I wonder what youse two guys think about Dr. Jacobs' latest > book, "The Threat": > "The Threat" was written several years before the book I cite was published. The chapter written by Prof. Jacobs in the latter book gives his latest thinking, which has not changed. The only issue that is still in debate is just how much of a threat the alien interaction might become. At the present time it clearly is a threat to certain individuals. However, the rest of us might actually benefit, provided we do not suffer from too much paranoia. Regards, Ed > > h > tp://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0684848139/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-8171710-1716807#reader-link > > > --------------FD94624F97EFF6674ABB8222 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  

Terry Blanton wrote:

Johnson, Steven wrote: 
-----Original Message-----
From: Edmund Storms [mailto:storms2@ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 12:21 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Ockham's razor, Conspiracies, 9/11, Flight 800, and UFOs

Greetings, Dr. Storms,

...


By the way, one of the best books on the subject of UFOs is 
"UFOs & Abductions" edited by David Jacobs, Univ. of Kansas 
Press 2000.  This book explores the subject from every angle 
and gives a very rational evaluation.  It is available from 
Amazon.com. 
Ed 


I think it's important to point out that UFO Abduction author/researchers
such as David Jacobs and Bud Hopkins have formulated personal theories
concerning the controversial abduction experience.

Hmmm.  I wonder what youse two guys think about Dr. Jacobs' latest book,  "The Threat":
 

"The Threat" was written several years before the book I cite was published.  The chapter written by Prof. Jacobs in the latter book gives his latest thinking, which has not changed.  The only issue that is still in debate is just how much of a threat the alien interaction might become.  At the present time it clearly is a threat to certain individuals.  However, the rest of us might actually benefit, provided we do not suffer from too much paranoia.

Regards,
Ed

 
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0684848139/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-8171710-1716807#reader-link

<evil grin>
 

--------------FD94624F97EFF6674ABB8222-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 26 15:42:20 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4QMgFnd002844; Wed, 26 May 2004 15:42:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4QMgDlr002808; Wed, 26 May 2004 15:42:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 15:42:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: "Johnson, Steven" To: "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" Cc: "Johnson, Steven" Subject: RE: Ockham's razor, Conspiracies, 9/11, Flight 800, and UFOs Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 17:42:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-PMX-Version: 4.6.0.99824, Antispam-Core: 4.6.0.99824, Antispam-Data: 2004.5.26.101635 Resent-Message-ID: <1PyyTB.A.zr.F1RtAB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54641 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dr. Storms' interesting comments concerning UFOs and controversial abduction experiences is, IMHO, the tip of a HUGE iceberg. It's an iceberg that has probably been floating in the oceans of our collective consciousness for longer than most of us suspect. For what it's worth, I give you: The Abduction Experience according to Steven Vincent Johnson: (1) Over the years I've had the privilege of meeting several experiencers (what some UFO abductees call themselves) mainly at social gatherings for UFO enthusiasts. One realization I came to was the wide dichotomy of individuals whom were touched by the experience. I conversed with some of the most intelligent, witty, and creative individuals one could possibly imagine. I've met bigots as well. The "experience" seems to be an equal opportunity employer. (2) There appears to be a never-ending debate concerning how PHYSICALLY REAL these abduction experiences should be considered and ESPECIALLY among abduction researchers. Many like Jacobs and Hopkins fall into the "I believe it's physically real" category, while Mack prefers to keep his options a tad more ethereal. It should be noted here that back in the 1990's John Mack, a Pulitzer winning author, was briefly investigated by his university when they first got wind of the fact that he was conducting research into the abduction experience. Fortunately, cooler heads prevailed and the committee concluded with the recommendation that Dr. Mack make an effort to bring other experts into his research, presumably, I suppose, as a precaution against the good doctor becoming too myopic. (3) Mike Carrell's tantalizingly cryptic comments elude to the fact that UFO sightings, and the classic "abduction experience" as well, appears to be a reoccurring theme of our collective consciousness. Personally, I suspect we've been seeing and experiencing these things since the time that 1:4:9 black monolith came down from the sky and momentarily startled a few of our distant ancestors. ;-) (4) I'm partial to an eccentric theory which proposes that our society is currently experiencing temporary amnesia when it comes to what we have interpreted as UFOs and aliens. It's a perfectly natural phase many technically oriented evolving civilizations probably pass through. It's a part of growing up. In ancient pre-technological times presumably when humanity first became aware of visitors from far off lands it was natural for them to be perceived of as gods. However as civilizations grow and evolve becoming more knowledgeable of their surroundings and hopefully of themselves they may have to pass through a crazy adolescent-like phase. During this adolescent phase (which I suspect our civilization is right smack in the middle of) any kind of perceived advanced intelligence from outside of ourselves, our planet, our REALITY, is considered extremely rude, if not a blatant intrusion into our way of doing things. It's only after we pass through our adolescent phase and graduate into adulthood that our civilization may once again regain the ability to perceive and fully acknowledge external encounters while remaining firmly anchored and confident in our own unique sense of humanity. (5) As far as I can tell it's possible I may have blundered into contact with "aliens" within the context of one or two of my rarely experienced "lucid dreams". If this is so I want to make it perfectly clear that it remains a firm suspicion of mine that EVERYONE on this planet is probably being contacted in the exact same way regardless of whether they recognize the experience as such. (6) As far as I can tell I've never been physically abducted by aliens. Damn! I think... Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 26 17:33:37 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4R0XTvl028317; Wed, 26 May 2004 17:33:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4R0XQdI028286; Wed, 26 May 2004 17:33:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 17:33:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40B5374F.8030000@ihug.co.nz> Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 12:33:19 +1200 From: John Berry User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ockham's razor, Conspiracies, 9/11, Flight 800, and UFOs References: <004a01c4431f$ff333650$5041ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <40B4D479.9030202@ihug.co.nz> <40B4D85B.1080609@rtpatlanta.com> <40B4DECF.6090900@ihug.co.nz> <40B4E544.2040801@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: <40B4E544.2040801@rtpatlanta.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <1rQxoB.A.65G.WdTtAB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54642 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > John Berry wrote: > >> It doesn't change anything. > > > > No offense, but I seriously doubt any evidence will, from you > perspective. You are correct, in that the video evidence of a pod and missile isn't just going to disappear. Though if there was anything as powerful that perhaps explained why a pod and missile appears I could have my mind changed. The phone call might have been faked or staged, or the families might have lied (they are in on it) or the call might be genuine, but all that means is that there were terrorists on the plane. It doesn't tell you who the terrorists are working for. > > As I learned during the many years that I moderated CompuServe's UFO > forum for the Mutual UFO Network (MUFON), personal proof is quite > subjective. Once an individual has his mind made up, no amount of > evidence will likely change their mind. I am only arguing with you > for the fun of it. . Same here. > > > As a s(k)eptic friend on the forum once admitted: > > "I doubt I would believe we are being visited by aliens even if a > flying saucer landed on the lawn and an alien came inside my house and > bit me on the ass." > > BTW, it was on *that* forum that I met Chris Tinsley; and *he* who > talked me into joining Vortex. > > (Did you know that Chris claimed to be a lycanthrope? :-) Chris was a good guy. Now your pulling my leg, right? right? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 26 17:45:47 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4R0jVvl031959; Wed, 26 May 2004 17:45:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4R0jTBN031923; Wed, 26 May 2004 17:45:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 17:45:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40B53A24.60108@ihug.co.nz> Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 12:45:24 +1200 From: John Berry User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ockham's razor, Conspiracies, 9/11, Flight 800, and UFOs References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54643 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: > I will remind John that there is plenty he could be talking about > >concerning our current leadership and it's blundering; that he >chooses to focus on a bullshit conspiracy > Bush is truly awful, I don't know where to start. I don't care to talk about that partly because you don't want to get me started on him or the current administration, but mostly because if anyone isn't convinced by now that he is the absolute worst person for the job they never will be. You must admit the video evidence is quite powerful even if you don't accept it. And you can't claim they never considered such a thing: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/northwoods.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 26 18:30:44 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra6.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4R1UZnd014163; Wed, 26 May 2004 18:30:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4R1UYOv014144; Wed, 26 May 2004 18:30:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 18:30:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40B545BF.4090103@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 21:34:55 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ockham's razor, Conspiracies, 9/11, Flight 800, and UFOs References: <004a01c4431f$ff333650$5041ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <40B4D479.9030202@ihug.co.nz> <40B4D85B.1080609@rtpatlanta.com> <40B4DECF.6090900@ihug.co.nz> <40B4E544.2040801@rtpatlanta.com> <40B5374F.8030000@ihug.co.nz> In-Reply-To: <40B5374F.8030000@ihug.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54644 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > You are correct, in that the video evidence of a pod and missile isn't > just going to disappear. > Though if there was anything as powerful that perhaps explained why a > pod and missile appears I could have my mind changed. Look, John, you don't need a POD the size of a PW or GE jet engine: http://www.757.org.uk/767/spec/ to launch a missle with a launch weight of less than 1/4 ton: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/aim-7.htm If you argued that flt175 was carrying a scalar weapon: http://www.gallerize.com/Gallerize.News.htm then I might be more entertained (except for Bearden's history) >> (Terry said:) >> >> (Did you know that Chris claimed to be a lycanthrope? :-) > > > Chris was a good guy. > Now your pulling my leg, right? right? Actually, no. More likely, he was having a go at the folks on the forum. Chris had some interesting ideas regarding DNA and morphology. He posted some very intriguing comments on the MUFON forum during the "Alien Autopsy" controversy. We discussed the possible universality of bilateral symmetry. That was when he questioned the relationship between DNA and body shape. Bless him for introducing me to Newcastle Brown Ale. The only acceptable way for a stranger to enter a Geordie bar: "Broons all roon!" From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 26 18:48:51 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4R1mcvl017149; Wed, 26 May 2004 18:48:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4R1mVca017101; Wed, 26 May 2004 18:48:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 18:48:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <06e7cf91-9b0d-47d4-9bac-9230efe09673> Message-ID: <004c01c4438c$ad9879f0$1c7bccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: Subject: Re: Ockham's razor, Conspiracies, 9/11, Flight 800, and UFOs Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 21:47:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54645 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Johnson, Steven" > > (3) Mike Carrell's tantalizingly cryptic comments elude to the fact that UFO > sightings, and the classic "abduction experience" as well, appears to be a > reoccurring theme of our collective consciousness. Personally, I suspect > we've been seeing and experiencing these things since the time that 1:4:9 > black monolith came down from the sky and momentarily startled a few of our > distant ancestors. ;-) I was trying to be brief, not cryptic. Go to www.ufoartwork.com, which is Matthew Hurley's collection of artworks showing ufo-like objects. These are as stubbornly present as John Berry's missile pod. The images are of tapestries and religious paintings done with great care, incorporating images important at the time, and spanning many years. I see no 'collective conciousness' here. If you want to dig further, look up the Sirius Mystery on Google or in Temple's books of the same name, and try to explain how the Dogon of Africa have an understanding of the white dwarf companion of Sirius (invisible to the naked eye) as part of their tribal lore, including a third star which was detected only in the '90s by perturbations in the positions of Sirius and it's companion. One explanation of the 'abductions' from a person who is in a position to have some insight is this: If you were planning to have extended contact with an alien species, it would be very prudent to have a very thorough understanding of the biochemistry. This can be benign in two ways. It protects you, the explorer, from pathogens, and it also protects your prospective hosts from your own pathogens. One should recall that a significant factor in the European conquest of the Americas is that they carried diseases for which the natives had no immunity and thousands died. The book "Guns, Germs & Steel" gives an excellent account of this. As for the precision slaughter of some farm animals, perhaps the travelers wanted to sample the local fauna. Should they have left credit cards? What have humans done in traveleing to far lands? > > . > During this adolescent phase (which I suspect our civilization is right > smack in the middle of) any kind of perceived advanced intelligence from > outside of ourselves, our planet, our REALITY, is considered extremely rude, > if not a blatant intrusion into our way of doing things. It's only after we > pass through our adolescent phase and graduate into adulthood that our > civilization may once again regain the ability to perceive and fully > acknowledge external encounters while remaining firmly anchored and > confident in our own unique sense of humanity. I've little doubt that Earth is adolescent at best and may not be ready to be let out of the pen. > Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 26 19:43:05 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i4R2gpvl028196; Wed, 26 May 2004 19:42:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i4R2gkS9028136; Wed, 26 May 2004 19:42:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 19:42:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <40B511E1.5010505@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 17:53:37 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ockham's razor, Conspiracies, 9/11, Flight 800, and UFOs References: <004a01c4431f$ff333650$5041ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <40B4D479.9030202@ihug.co.nz> <40B4D85B.1080609@rtpatlanta.com> <7b1ab01kpd8rpfe3ka5nmu57eberdd0c6p@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: <7b1ab01kpd8rpfe3ka5nmu57eberdd0c6p@4ax.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------040902060102020403010400" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/54646 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040902060102020403010400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dean Miller wrote: >Hi Terry, > >On Wed, 26 May 2004 13:48:11 -0400, "Terry Blanton" > wrote: > > > >>Go back to the link you cited. Read the response by Xenon. >> >>As a licensed professional engineer who designs radio systems I can >>confirm that Xenon is correct. >> >> > >Did you not read this reply? > Yes, but look at the vertical sidelobes of these antennae: http://www2.rfsworld.com/RFS_Edition3/pdfs/Directional_Panel_7_280.pdf Upon LOS, the cell phone will immediately seek another site. If it can't find it's home carrier, it will find a another in the roam mode. I don't think this guy is a very good engineer. Large buildings attenuate cell signals 20 dB or more. Cell phones work in airplanes; but, the quality can be poor and you'll find yourself hitting redial frequently. Lookie here: http://articles.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0GTV/is_21_18/ai_79963471 > According to an advisory on the FAA Web site, the FCC currently > prohibits the use and operation of wireless phones while airborne. Its > primary concern is that a wireless phone, while used airborne, would > have a much greater transmitting range than a land mobile unit. > > "This could result in serious interference to transmissions at other > cell locations since the system uses the same frequency several times > within a market," according to the advisory. Because a cellular mobile > telephone is capable of operating on all assignable cellular > frequencies, serious interference also may occur to cellular systems > in adjacent markets. > This is one reason they make you turn them off on takeoff. Another is the competition with AirPhone. Ever paid one of those bills? They used to be as high as $7.50 per minute. There's a new technology coming called Pico-phone which will allow you to use your cell phone without interfering with ground-based systems Here's an interesting tidbit from someone who knows: http://www.kewney.com/articles/030428-danger.html --------------040902060102020403010400 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dean Miller wrote:
Hi Terry,

On Wed, 26 May 2004 13:48:11 -0400, "Terry Blanton"
<blantont@rtpatlanta.com> wrote:

  
Go back to the link you cited.  Read the response by Xenon.

As a licensed professional engineer who designs radio systems I can 
confirm that Xenon is correct.
    

Did you not read this reply?

Yes, but look at the vertical sidelobes of these antennae:

http://www2.rfsworld.com/RFS_Edition3/pdfs/Directional_Panel_7_280.pdf

Upon LOS, the cell phone will immediately seek another site.  If it can't find it's home carrier, it will find a another in the roam mode.

I don't think this guy is a very good engineer.  Large buildings attenuate cell signals 20 dB or more. 

Cell phones work in airplanes; but, the quality can be poor and you'll find yourself hitting redial frequently.

Lookie here:

http://articles.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0GTV/is_21_18/ai_79963471

According to an advisory on the FAA Web site, the FCC currently prohibits the use and operation of wireless phones while airborne. Its primary concern is that a wireless phone, while used airborne, would have a much greater transmitting range than a land mobile unit.

"This could result in serious interference to transmissions at other cell locations since the system uses the same frequency several times within a market," according to the advisory. Because a cellular mobile telephone is capable of operating on all assignable cellular frequencies, serious interference also may occur to cellular systems in adjacent markets.


This is one reason they make you turn them off on takeoff.  Another is the competition with AirPhone.  Ever paid one of those bills?  They used to be as high as $7.50 per minute.

There's a new technology coming called Pico-phone which will allow you to use your cell phone without interfering with ground-based systems

Here's an interesting tidbit from someone who knows:

http://www.kewney.com/articles/030428-danger.html






--------------040902060102020403010400--

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 26 19:43:13 2004
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Edmund Storms wrote:

> "The Threat" was written several years before the book I cite was 
> published.  The chapter written by Prof. Jacobs in the latter book 
> gives his latest thinking, which has not changed.  The only issue that 
> is still in debate is just how much of a threat the alien interaction 
> might become.  At the present time it clearly is a threat to certain 
> individuals.  However, the rest of us might actually benefit, provided 
> we do not suffer from too much paranoia.


You're right.  But do you *really* entertain Jacob's conjecture that the 
alien agenda is to create alien/human hybrids to eventually displace 
mankind and take over the world?

I mean, I'm a true believer in alien visitation; but, I do not buy 
Jacob's explanation.

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 26 20:15:17 2004
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Terry Blanton wrote:

> Edmund Storms wrote:
>
> > "The Threat" was written several years before the book I cite was
> > published.  The chapter written by Prof. Jacobs in the latter book
> > gives his latest thinking, which has not changed.  The only issue that
> > is still in debate is just how much of a threat the alien interaction
> > might become.  At the present time it clearly is a threat to certain
> > individuals.  However, the rest of us might actually benefit, provided
> > we do not suffer from too much paranoia.
>
> You're right.  But do you *really* entertain Jacob's conjecture that the
> alien agenda is to create alien/human hybrids to eventually displace
> mankind and take over the world?
>
> I mean, I'm a true believer in alien visitation; but, I do not buy
> Jacob's explanation.

Granted, this sounds wild and almost science fiction.  However, if you
grant that abduction takes place, you need to find a plausible reason for
this action.  Any curiosity would have been long since satisfied.  When
several skilled investigators all find evidence for the same conclusion,
even a court of law takes the evidence seriously.  I suppose anyone can
make up any explanation for the alien action that satisfies their personal
needs, but this is not evidence.  Evidence has to have consistency between
many people's experiences and logical connections to a self interest.  Both
of these requirements are contained in Jacob's explanation as well as being
consistent with other investor's findings.  Based on the evidence, what
explanation would you propose?  Why would you think that so many of the
abductees bring back stories of hybrids, with many of the stories having
similar features even though the people had no knowledge of the other
person's experiences?  Pretend this is a crime story and judge the evidence
as would a lawyer.

Regards,
Ed

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Ed,  This subject has interested me somewhat from time to time so I have 
ordered the two Jacob books that you mentioned, but in the meantime I am 
confused by the number of alien species reported, each apparently with 
different behavior. We must suspect with equally different motivations, and 
yet they all practice secrecy. The Grays yes, but they can't ALL be into 
creating hybrids.., can they? I must therefore assume that secrecy is not 
always associated with hybrid-manufacturing or even necessarily with purely 
selfish intention-  some of it possibly may be associated with the 
different species' self-preservation.

Various readings I have done over the years seem (to me) to be pointing to 
the probability that  we  are property.

I look forward to reading the 2 books.

Colin

  At 11:18 PM 5/26/2004, you wrote:


>Terry Blanton wrote:
>
> > Edmund Storms wrote:
> >
> > > "The Threat" was written several years before the book I cite was
> > > published.  The chapter written by Prof. Jacobs in the latter book
> > > gives his latest thinking, which has not changed.  The only issue that
> > > is still in debate is just how much of a threat the alien interaction
> > > might become.  At the present time it clearly is a threat to certain
> > > individuals.  However, the rest of us might actually benefit, provided
> > > we do not suffer from too much paranoia.
> >
> > You're right.  But do you *really* entertain Jacob's conjecture that the
> > alien agenda is to create alien/human hybrids to eventually displace
> > mankind and take over the world?
> >
> > I mean, I'm a true believer in alien visitation; but, I do not buy
> > Jacob's explanation.
>
>Granted, this sounds wild and almost science fiction.  However, if you
>grant that abduction takes place, you need to find a plausible reason for
>this action.  Any curiosity would have been long since satisfied.  When
>several skilled investigators all find evidence for the same conclusion,
>even a court of law takes the evidence seriously.  I suppose anyone can
>make up any explanation for the alien action that satisfies their personal
>needs, but this is not evidence.  Evidence has to have consistency between
>many people's experiences and logical connections to a self interest.  Both
>of these requirements are contained in Jacob's explanation as well as being
>consistent with other investor's findings.  Based on the evidence, what
>explanation would you propose?  Why would you think that so many of the
>abductees bring back stories of hybrids, with many of the stories having
>similar features even though the people had no knowledge of the other
>person's experiences?  Pretend this is a crime story and judge the evidence
>as would a lawyer.
>
>Regards,
>Ed

--=====================_50191982==.ALT
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Ed,  This subject has interested me somewhat from time to time so I
have ordered the two Jacob books that you mentioned, but in the meantime
I am confused by the number of alien species reported, each apparently
with different behavior. We must suspect with equally different
motivations, and yet they all practice secrecy. The Grays yes, but they
can't  ALL be into creating hybrids.., can they? I must therefore assume
that secrecy is not always associated with hybrid-manufacturing or even
necessarily with purely selfish intention-  some of it possibly may
be associated with the different species' self-preservation. 


Various readings I have done over the years seem (to me) to be
pointing to the probability that  we  are  property.


I look forward to reading the 2 books.


Colin


 At 11:18 PM 5/26/2004, you wrote:





Terry Blanton wrote:


> Edmund Storms wrote:

>

> > "The Threat" was written several years before the
book I cite was

> > published.  The chapter written by Prof. Jacobs in the
latter book

> > gives his latest thinking, which has not changed.  The
only issue that

> > is still in debate is just how much of a threat the alien
interaction

> > might become.  At the present time it clearly is a threat
to certain

> > individuals.  However, the rest of us might actually
benefit, provided

> > we do not suffer from too much paranoia.

>

> You're right.  But do you *really* entertain Jacob's conjecture
that the

> alien agenda is to create alien/human hybrids to eventually
displace

> mankind and take over the world?

>

> I mean, I'm a true believer in alien visitation; but, I do not
buy

> Jacob's explanation.


Granted, this sounds wild and almost science fiction.  However, if
you

grant that abduction takes place, you need to find a plausible reason
for

this action.  Any curiosity would have been long since
satisfied.  When

several skilled investigators all find evidence for the same
conclusion,

even a court of law takes the evidence seriously.  I suppose anyone
can

make up any explanation for the alien action that satisfies their
personal

needs, but this is not evidence.  Evidence has to have consistency
between

many people's experiences and logical connections to a self
interest.  Both

of these requirements are contained in Jacob's explanation as well as
being

consistent with other investor's findings.  Based on the evidence,
what

explanation would you propose?  Why would you think that so many of
the

abductees bring back stories of hybrids, with many of the stories
having

similar features even though the people had no knowledge of the
other

person's experiences?  Pretend this is a crime story and judge the
evidence

as would a lawyer.


Regards,

Ed



--=====================_50191982==.ALT--

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 27 06:55:22 2004
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Edmund Storms wrote:

>Based on the evidence, what
>explanation would you propose?  Why would you think that so many of the
>abductees bring back stories of hybrids, with many of the stories having
>similar features even though the people had no knowledge of the other
>person's experiences?  
>

Not my idea; but, a more commonly accepted conjecture among Ufologists 
is that the Greys, having manipulated their own DNA over the ages, have 
lost many desirable traits.  And they have an agreement with our 
government to exchange elements of their technology for samples of human 
DNA to create hybrids for redeeming those lost traits.

Another conjecture from the followers of Sitchin:

http://www.sitchin.com/

is that the Greys are here to continue the process which created Homo 
Sapien Sapien.  The hybridization will allegedly eliminate the 
undesirable traits in humans and usher in a creature which can be 
accepted into the Galactic Federation.

A less accepted idea is that the Greys have a project similar to the 
Jesus Christ Church of Latter Day Saints for purely scientific reasons, 
ie they are researchers.

I find all of these more acceptable than an "Invasion Plan".

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 27 07:16:43 2004
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Edmund Storms wrote:

>However, if you
>grant that abduction takes place, you need to find a plausible reason for
>this action.  
>

I have personally met many "Experiencers".  One, in particular, stands 
out.  Did you see the NOVA program on abductions?  In that program, they 
profiled a child abductee.  I met the child's mother who was quite 
distraught with how WGBH treated her story.

Anyway, I though you might like to see some of the abduction physical 
evidence:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/aic/pev1.htm

This is John Velez's site.  He was on that NOVA program.  He also has 
images of some of the implants that were removed.

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 27 07:33:54 2004
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> From: Terry Blanton [mailto:blantont@rtpatlanta.com]
> Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 9:16 AM
> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: Ockham's razor, Conspiracies, 9/11, Flight 800, and UFOs
> 
> 
> Edmund Storms wrote:
> 
> >However, if you
> >grant that abduction takes place, you need to find a 
> plausible reason for
> >this action.  
> >
> 
> I have personally met many "Experiencers".  One, in 
> particular, stands 
> out.  Did you see the NOVA program on abductions?  In that 
> program, they 
> profiled a child abductee.  I met the child's mother who was quite 
> distraught with how WGBH treated her story.
> 

Just a side comment here. 

Certain UFO researchers who had been burned in the past tried to warn many
who chose to work with NOVA on the abduction program. They tried to tell
them that NOVA would NOT treat the subject fairly or objectively. As they
had predicted the NOVA program dutifully presented various aspects of the
abduction experience, then the skeptics were brought in to give the rational
explanation. NOVA even made John Mack look like a gullible idiot after
taking the stories of one individual at face value without seriously
checking into what might have been the that person's motivations for doing
so.

Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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I guess this means that some of us
 no longer need to worry about being abducted
 since we are being more properly marginalized,
 being specimens of an 'experiment gone wrong'
 'Globo Sapiens' species

>...X...<
 
> 
> Another conjecture from the followers of Sitchin:
> 
> http://www.sitchin.com/
> 
> is that the Greys are here to continue the process which created Homo 
> Sapien Sapien.  The hybridization will allegedly eliminate the 
> undesirable traits in humans and usher in a creature which can be 
> accepted into the Galactic Federation.
> 
> A less accepted idea is that the Greys have a project similar to the 
> Jesus Christ Church of Latter Day Saints for purely scientific reasons, 
> ie they are researchers.
> 
> I find all of these more acceptable than an "Invasion Plan".
> 
> 
> 

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Colin Quinney wrote:

> Ed,  This subject has interested me somewhat from time to time so I
> have ordered the two Jacob books that you mentioned, but in the
> meantime I am confused by the number of alien species reported, each
> apparently with different behavior. We must suspect with equally
> different motivations, and yet they all practice secrecy. The Grays
> yes, but they can't ALL be into creating hybrids.., can they? I must
> therefore assume that secrecy is not always associated with
> hybrid-manufacturing or even necessarily with purely selfish
> intention-  some of it possibly may be associated with the different
> species' self-preservation.

>From what I understand, you are right, many species of aliens visit
the earth from time to time.  Apparently the "Grays" have claimed the
earth as theirs and work to protect their property.  We might be
thankful that their approach is relatively benign, in contrast to
other possibilities.
Hope you enjoy the books.

Ed

>
>
> Various readings I have done over the years seem (to me) to be
> pointing to the probability that  we  are property.
>
> I look forward to reading the 2 books.
>
> Colin
>
>  At 11:18 PM 5/26/2004, you wrote:
>
>
>
>> Terry Blanton wrote:
>>
>> > Edmund Storms wrote:
>> >
>> > > "The Threat" was written several years before the book I cite
>> was
>> > > published.  The chapter written by Prof. Jacobs in the latter
>> book
>> > > gives his latest thinking, which has not changed.  The only
>> issue that
>> > > is still in debate is just how much of a threat the alien
>> interaction
>> > > might become.  At the present time it clearly is a threat to
>> certain
>> > > individuals.  However, the rest of us might actually benefit,
>> provided
>> > > we do not suffer from too much paranoia.
>> >
>> > You're right.  But do you *really* entertain Jacob's conjecture
>> that the
>> > alien agenda is to create alien/human hybrids to eventually
>> displace
>> > mankind and take over the world?
>> >
>> > I mean, I'm a true believer in alien visitation; but, I do not
>> buy
>> > Jacob's explanation.
>>
>> Granted, this sounds wild and almost science fiction.  However, if
>> you
>> grant that abduction takes place, you need to find a plausible
>> reason for
>> this action.  Any curiosity would have been long since satisfied.
>> When
>> several skilled investigators all find evidence for the same
>> conclusion,
>> even a court of law takes the evidence seriously.  I suppose
>> anyone can
>> make up any explanation for the alien action that satisfies their
>> personal
>> needs, but this is not evidence.  Evidence has to have consistency
>> between
>> many people's experiences and logical connections to a self
>> interest.  Both
>> of these requirements are contained in Jacob's explanation as well
>> as being
>> consistent with other investor's findings.  Based on the evidence,
>> what
>> explanation would you propose?  Why would you think that so many
>> of the
>> abductees bring back stories of hybrids, with many of the stories
>> having
>> similar features even though the people had no knowledge of the
>> other
>> person's experiences?  Pretend this is a crime story and judge the
>> evidence
>> as would a lawyer.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Ed
>

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Colin Quinney wrote:

Ed,  This subject has interested me somewhat
from time to time so I have ordered the two Jacob books that you mentioned,
but in the meantime I am confused by the number of alien species reported,
each apparently with different behavior. We must suspect with equally different
motivations, and yet they all practice secrecy. The Grays yes, but they
can't ALL be into creating hybrids.., can they? I must therefore assume
that secrecy is not always associated with hybrid-manufacturing or even
necessarily with purely selfish intention-  some of it possibly may
be associated with the different species' self-preservation.

>From what I understand, you are right, many species of aliens visit the
earth from time to time.  Apparently the "Grays" have claimed the
earth as theirs and work to protect their property.  We might be thankful
that their approach is relatively benign, in contrast to other possibilities.

Hope you enjoy the books.

Ed

 

Various readings I have done over the years seem (to me) to be
pointing to the probability that  we  are property.

I look forward to reading the 2 books.

Colin

 At 11:18 PM 5/26/2004, you wrote:

 

 

Terry Blanton wrote:

> Edmund Storms wrote:

>

> > "The Threat" was written several years before the book I cite was

> > published.  The chapter written by Prof. Jacobs in the latter
book

> > gives his latest thinking, which has not changed.  The only
issue that

> > is still in debate is just how much of a threat the alien interaction

> > might become.  At the present time it clearly is a threat
to certain

> > individuals.  However, the rest of us might actually benefit,
provided

> > we do not suffer from too much paranoia.

>

> You're right.  But do you *really* entertain Jacob's conjecture
that the

> alien agenda is to create alien/human hybrids to eventually displace

> mankind and take over the world?

>

> I mean, I'm a true believer in alien visitation; but, I do not buy

> Jacob's explanation.

Granted, this sounds wild and almost science fiction.  However,
if you

grant that abduction takes place, you need to find a plausible reason
for

this action.  Any curiosity would have been long since satisfied. 
When

several skilled investigators all find evidence for the same conclusion,

even a court of law takes the evidence seriously.  I suppose anyone
can

make up any explanation for the alien action that satisfies their personal

needs, but this is not evidence.  Evidence has to have consistency
between

many people's experiences and logical connections to a self interest. 
Both

of these requirements are contained in Jacob's explanation as well
as being

consistent with other investor's findings.  Based on the evidence,
what

explanation would you propose?  Why would you think that so many
of the

abductees bring back stories of hybrids, with many of the stories having

similar features even though the people had no knowledge of the other

person's experiences?  Pretend this is a crime story and judge
the evidence

as would a lawyer.

Regards,

Ed





--------------E441E4FB3B66976B095347BB--

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Subject: Re: Ockham's razor, Conspiracies, 9/11, Flight 800, and UFOs
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Terry Blanton wrote:

> Edmund Storms wrote:
>
> >Based on the evidence, what
> >explanation would you propose?  Why would you think that so many of the
> >abductees bring back stories of hybrids, with many of the stories having
> >similar features even though the people had no knowledge of the other
> >person's experiences?
> >
>
> Not my idea; but, a more commonly accepted conjecture among Ufologists
> is that the Greys, having manipulated their own DNA over the ages, have
> lost many desirable traits.  And they have an agreement with our
> government to exchange elements of their technology for samples of human
> DNA to create hybrids for redeeming those lost traits.
>
> Another conjecture from the followers of Sitchin:
>
> http://www.sitchin.com/
>
> is that the Greys are here to continue the process which created Homo
> Sapien Sapien.  The hybridization will allegedly eliminate the
> undesirable traits in humans and usher in a creature which can be
> accepted into the Galactic Federation.
>
> A less accepted idea is that the Greys have a project similar to the
> Jesus Christ Church of Latter Day Saints for purely scientific reasons,
> ie they are researchers.
>
> I find all of these more acceptable than an "Invasion Plan".

I agree, these are all reasonable possibilities that are consistent with the
evidence.  Invasion would make no sense, as Hollywood likes to suggest,
because it would make a mess of the very planet the Aliens find so
valuable.  Also, keeping their presence as unaccepted by humans as possible
also makes sense to prevent the unavoidable conflict.  However, I don't
think the government is involved.  People in the government are so
self-serving and completely unable to keep a secret that this kind of
interaction could not be hidden.  In fact, if I were an alien, I would not
want to have anything to do with humans at that level, because such people
can not be trusted not to use the power given by such association for their
own benefit.  You can almost hear them all saying to the aliens, "Get me
re-elected or I will blow your cover.

Ed


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Subject: Re: Ockham's razor, Conspiracies, 9/11, Flight 800, and UFOs
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Edmund Storms wrote:

>However, I don't
>think the government is involved.  
>

Many speculate that it was Eisenhower that made the agreement with the 
Greys and that the "government" of which I spoke is actually a Shadow 
Government separate from the elected government and controlled by the 
military industrial complex.

Eisenhower warned us:

http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~hst306/documents/indust.html

in his exit speech.

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Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 13:02:20 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell 
Subject: New Scientist reports reactor safety concerns
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See:

"Nuclear jet crash 'could kill millions'

Fears that the UK's nuclear plants are vulnerable to a 9/11-style attack or 
accident are growing . . ."

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99995036

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992859

Conventional fission reactors are an "all or nothing" proposition, aren't 
they? As long as everything goes according to plan, I have to admit they 
are a superb source of energy: nonpolluting, inexpensive, highly 
concentrated. Even the radwaste disposal problem seems to be less of a a 
health risk than things such as coal. But the potential for harm is so 
great . . . The public will never be happy with them, and the public is a 
lot smarter than it looks.

Fission reactors are an example of "unforgiving" technology.

- Jed


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From: Edmund Storms 
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> See:
>
> "Nuclear jet crash 'could kill millions'
>
> Fears that the UK's nuclear plants are vulnerable to a 9/11-style attack or
> accident are growing . . ."
>
> http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99995036
>
> http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992859
>
> Conventional fission reactors are an "all or nothing" proposition, aren't
> they? As long as everything goes according to plan, I have to admit they
> are a superb source of energy: nonpolluting, inexpensive, highly
> concentrated. Even the radwaste disposal problem seems to be less of a a
> health risk than things such as coal. But the potential for harm is so
> great . . . The public will never be happy with them, and the public is a
> lot smarter than it looks.

All reactors will sooner or later fail.  Radiation damage of parts that can
not be examined or replaced will cause eventual failure.  The only issue is
whether the reactor is decommissioned before this happens and whether the
response of safety controls will prevent cascade failure.  It is easy to
forget the disasters and near disasters such devices have suffered.  Now we
have given people who want to cause disaster an easy target.  Yet, the Bush
administration wants to build more of these time bombs to make hydrogen.
Heaven help us from fools and knaves.

Ed

>
>
> Fission reactors are an example of "unforgiving" technology.
>
> - Jed

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 27 16:03:29 2004
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Cc: "Johnson, Steven" 
Subject: OT: The Abduction Archetype - a form of symbolic communication
Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 18:01:19 -0500
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Vortex has recently taken an interesting side-step into the controversial
subject of alien abductions. I haunted UFO news groups like
alt.alien.visitors and the paranet group back in the prehistoric 1990s where
the debate raged on and on. It's unlikely vortex will be able to reach a
satisfactory conclusion concerning the abduction question either. Over the
years, having seen and occasionally conversed with experts like Bud Hopkins,
Whitley Streiber, and John Mack I have at least come away with the
appreciation for just how rich and baffling the abduction experience
occasionally reveals itself to be.

I hope I can offer additional insights that some might find useful in their
own personal quest to gain a greater perspective, if not at least a better
appreciation for why this subject has both intrigued some while
simultaneously appalling others.

Years ago I was more inclined to take the accounts of abductees literally.
It seemed to make sense to consider the possibility that aliens, like the
grays, have been manipulating human DNA in order to create a more perfect
"container". Or perhaps it was because their own race had bumped against
some kind of a genetic dead end. Perfectly logical conclusions to come by
when presented with so many collaborating and independently collected
stories from experiencers, like Leah Haley, or Kathrina Wilson.

Today, however, I'm less inclined to accept these encounters so literally
even though I remain convinced that they remain in my opinion totally real -
but perhaps in a different sense.

I offer the suggestion that SOME (though certainly not all) abduction
experiences may actually be a misunderstood form of conscious interfacing, a
form of communication where an archetype meta-language rich in symbolic
content is taking place. I know some may accuse me or prefer to categorize
my suggestion as falling into the "screen memory" scenario, meaning these
archetype symbols are only hiding what is REALLY happening.

The problem for is that as the years have gone by I began questioning
whether we truly have a good handle on the "reality" of the situation. The
only real thing I could get a grip on were the experiencers often courageous
attempts to describe their encounters and how it affected them in profound
ways. IOW, I think HOW they/we are being affected by the experience is a
major clue into the reasons behind WHY the experience is occurring in the
first place. HOW they/we are being affected in fact may ultimately turn out
to be more important than the elaborate window dressing of the encounter
itself.

Does this sound confusing? Let me try to clarify.

I'd like to suggest that we can find numerous symbolic references described
within the classic abduction scenario that point to the possibility of a
highly developed form of communication, as compared to the more literal
translation where it is theorized people are being physically picked up,
probed, inseminated, de-inseminated, all for alien scientific analysis.

For example consider the following points:

The abduction experience is not a modern phenomenon. It has been recorded in
cultures going back into pre-history. Through out our history legends and
mythic stories tell of encounters with fairies abducting humans who
occasionally have sexual relations with them. Some stories would even claim
that these fairies were substituting children with "changelings." One would
imagine that over the centuries it must have been distressing to personally
experience one of these events. In modern times these stories are not all
that different from accounts described by abductees when presented with
"hybrid" children that are claimed to be of their own genetic heritage.

Experiences often describe a situation that is presented to them by their
abductors. It's as if they must play out a role in a carefully planned story
already supplied with props and characters. While occasionally the stories
follow a mundane theme, it is more likely that they will need to confront a
terrifying situation where they feel at a total loss as to how to deal with
the situation.

Abductees are often presented with terrifying visions of planetary scale
disasters. Again, they feel helpless and at a total loss as to how to deal
with the situation. They are confronted with utter annihilation.

Experiencers often describe an encounter where an alien will position
himself face-to-face with the abductee. Their eyes (human and alien) are
only inches apart. It is often described as a terrifying experience for the
abductee for they feel as if their consciousness is either merging or being
replaced with that of the alien. Again, the abductee feels at a loss as to
how to cope with the situation. They feel like their very consciousness is
being annihilated.

Experiencers often describe being examined as if they were nothing more than
a lab rat. Instruments are brought out. The experiencer is rendered
paralyzed, unable to move or protest. They are probed and prodded in ways
that violate their sense of personal boundaries. Again, abductees are
reduced to feeling helpless and annihilated.

On the surface, such scenarios don't suggest a future where we would have
the upper hand, certainly not an equitable one.

However, a curious thing about these encounters is that not all of them are
terrifying, where the experiencer feels utterly destroyed. Occasionally the
experiencer's encounter can be filled with love and light, of unprecedented
growth. Occasionally there is the experience of a connective-ness with
something greater than themselves. It's a state of consciousness where the
normal sense of one's personal boundaries has been left behind - as if it
had been annihilated.

The rich tapestry of these experiences suggests to me that humanity may be
in contact with forms of intelligences and realities we do not yet recognize
or comprehend. I suspect they may be attempting to communicate with us by
using our own personal dictionary of symbols, perhaps in an attempt to build
a bridge of common ground. However, in the act of communicating, of bridging
that vast gap between us and them we may all to often end up conjuring up a
personal dictionary of symbols filled with our own interpretations of
confusion, of helplessness, of feeling at the mercy of an incomprehensible
intelligence we can't yet comprehend - and must therefore fear. It turns out
to be a bad trip.

To me it's as if we must learn how to break through the barriers of our own
conscious limitations, of what we intimately feel is the soul of our-self,
which must be protected at all costs. It's as if we must summon within
ourselves the courage to allow our most intimate conscious boundaries to be
annihilated before we can step through and into another reality where
communication with other forms of intelligences may once again take place on
more equitable terms. I suspect that when this eventually happens, and most
likely when our civilization enters adulthood, the classic "alien abduction"
scenario, which currently is filled with symbolic representations of being
controlled and annihilated, may begin to transform into something a tad more
palatable.


On the other hand, maybe we are just being abducted.

Only Muldair knows for sure!

Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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From: Dean Miller 
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Ockham's razor, Conspiracies, 9/11, Flight 800, and UFOs
Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 03:26:30 -0500
Organization: Miller and Associates
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On Wed, 26 May 2004 17:53:37 -0400, "Terry Blanton"
 wrote:

>Cell phones work in airplanes; but, the quality can be poor and you'll 
>find yourself hitting redial frequently.

I think that was the question of  how there could be a 20 minute cell
call from the plane.

  
>> "This could result in serious interference to transmissions at other 
>> cell locations since the system uses the same frequency several times 
>> within a market," according to the advisory. Because a cellular mobile 
>> telephone is capable of operating on all assignable cellular 
>> frequencies, serious interference also may occur to cellular systems 
>> in adjacent markets.

More importantly, for this discussion, is the multiple cell towers
transmitting on one frequency that the airborne cell phone would
receive.  The cell phone would have to somehow overcome the
interference to decode the signal.  (Cell transmitters reuse a
frequency if the cells are far enough apart -- 50 to 75 miles, if I
recall correctly.  A cell phone that's 5 miles up would have no
problem hearing many cell towers with attendant interference.)

-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF

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Dean Miller wrote:

>On Wed, 26 May 2004 17:53:37 -0400, "Terry Blanton"
> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Cell phones work in airplanes; but, the quality can be poor and you'll 
>>find yourself hitting redial frequently.
>>    
>>
>
>I think that was the question of  how there could be a 20 minute cell
>call from the plane.
>

I can find no report that says the call was uninterrupted.

>  
>  
>
>>>"This could result in serious interference to transmissions at other 
>>>cell locations since the system uses the same frequency several times 
>>>within a market," according to the advisory. Because a cellular mobile 
>>>telephone is capable of operating on all assignable cellular 
>>>frequencies, serious interference also may occur to cellular systems 
>>>in adjacent markets.
>>>      
>>>
>
>More importantly, for this discussion, is the multiple cell towers
>transmitting on one frequency that the airborne cell phone would
>receive.  The cell phone would have to somehow overcome the
>interference to decode the signal.  (Cell transmitters reuse a
>frequency if the cells are far enough apart -- 50 to 75 miles, if I
>recall correctly.  A cell phone that's 5 miles up would have no
>problem hearing many cell towers with attendant interference.)
>

Frequency reuse is a function of both coverage and call density.  In 
urban areas, cells are made quite small intentionally.  So, an cell user 
flying over a city would have  less chance of having an uninterrupted 
call.  Kinda counterintuitive innit?

Check the web, there are many anecdotes on cell phones in airplanes, 
some quite funny, in fact.

BTW, do you remember Tinsley on the Encounters forum (or is that part of 
your life you're trying to forget :-)?

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Dean Miller wrote:



  
On Wed, 26 May 2004 17:53:37 -0400, "Terry Blanton"
<blantont@rtpatlanta.com> wrote:

  

  

    
Cell phones work in airplanes; but, the quality can be poor and you'll 
find yourself hitting redial frequently.
    

  

  

I think that was the question of  how there could be a 20 minute cell
call from the plane.





I can find no report that says the call was uninterrupted.





  
  <snip>
  

  

    

      
"This could result in serious interference to transmissions at other 
cell locations since the system uses the same frequency several times 
within a market," according to the advisory. Because a cellular mobile 
telephone is capable of operating on all assignable cellular 
frequencies, serious interference also may occur to cellular systems 
in adjacent markets.
      

    

  

  

More importantly, for this discussion, is the multiple cell towers
transmitting on one frequency that the airborne cell phone would
receive.  The cell phone would have to somehow overcome the
interference to decode the signal.  (Cell transmitters reuse a
frequency if the cells are far enough apart -- 50 to 75 miles, if I
recall correctly.  A cell phone that's 5 miles up would have no
problem hearing many cell towers with attendant interference.)





Frequency reuse is a function of both coverage and call density.  In
urban areas, cells are made quite small intentionally.  So, an cell
user flying over a city would have  less chance of having an
uninterrupted call.  Kinda counterintuitive innit?



Check the web, there are many anecdotes on cell phones in airplanes,
some quite funny, in fact.



BTW, do you remember Tinsley on the Encounters forum (or is that part
of your life you're trying to forget :-)?




--------------050606070800070702000401--

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Dean Miller wrote:
> On Wed, 26 May 2004 17:53:37 -0400, "Terry Blanton"
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>>Cell phones work in airplanes; but, the quality can be poor and you'll 
>>find yourself hitting redial frequently.
> 
> 
> I think that was the question of  how there could be a 20 minute cell
> call from the plane.
> 
>   
> 
>>>"This could result in serious interference to transmissions at other 
>>>cell locations since the system uses the same frequency several times 
>>>within a market," according to the advisory. Because a cellular mobile 
>>>telephone is capable of operating on all assignable cellular 
>>>frequencies, serious interference also may occur to cellular systems 
>>>in adjacent markets.
> 
> 
> More importantly, for this discussion, is the multiple cell towers
> transmitting on one frequency that the airborne cell phone would
> receive.  The cell phone would have to somehow overcome the
> interference to decode the signal.  (Cell transmitters reuse a
> frequency if the cells are far enough apart -- 50 to 75 miles, if I
> recall correctly.  A cell phone that's 5 miles up...

Minor point:  They weren't 5 miles up.  IIRC, according to the reports I 
read that plane was flying rather low, and the pilot(s) appeared to be 
lost.  But perhaps my memory is confused.

They may also not have been cruising at 500 MPH.  This bunch behaved 
very differently from the ones that took out the towers.

I'm still not sure if the heroics in the plane actually accomplished 
anything -- if they were lost, confused, or totally incompetent, as the 
behavior of the plane made them seem, could they have managed to hit 
their target, in any case?  Dunno...

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 29 06:43:20 2004
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From: "jonfli" 
To: 
References: <20040524160604.32214.qmail@web41510.mail.yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Kent State Univ contacted for ferrite heating demos.
Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 07:21:47 -0500
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Harvey,

I find your test results of the anomalous SrFe heating most interesting! I'm
certainly no expert in calorimetry, but you might try using a non-contact IR
temperature measuring device at a fixed distance to compare the heated
ferrite to other ~60 watt loads such as a light bulb or load resistor. This
should give you a rough comparison at least of the emitted IR.

Another test would be to place the device(s) in a closed insulated box with
a thermocouple for temperature sensing and run the unit(s) until you see
temperature stabilization and compare the results.

The SrFe appears to be entering a nonlinear negative resistance regime and I
for one am curious as to it's "effective" heating as compared to linear
loads! BTW,  I happen to have some rather large 4" x 6" slabs of virgin SrFe
in 1/2" and 1" thickness that were supposed to be BaFe and you're welcome to
use some for testing if you wish.

Jon F

----- Original Message -----
From: "Harvey Norris" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 11:06 AM
Subject: Kent State Univ contacted for ferrite heating demos.


> Just posting a note to vortex group here on my efforts
> to interest the local university on the discovery of
> anomalous heating of ferrites. Since we have so many
> calorometry (spelling in question) experts here, who
> wonder why excess heat can develope for a certain
> amount of input energy,(cold fusion) I thought it
> would be simple to answer this question, but so far no
> such experts have responded. In fact I doubt whether I
> will even get a responce from the KSU physics dept.,
> which I emailed about ten of those folks the following
> letter;
> Subject: Anomalous SrFe Heating effect
> To: dyang@lci.kent.edu
>
> I have some small 3/8 in. wide blocks of unmagnetized
> SrFe, (ceramic 8).  Nominally the resistance of this
> ferrite ceramic material is at least 8000 ohms. I have
> also played around with creating voltage rise by
> resonance from an AC converted car alternator. At
> around 160 volts the peices apparently start loosing
> resistance, and start passing appreciable current. By
> the time the pieces have passed 3 A, I read 21 volts
> enabling 3A, so the pieces are acting as if they are
> only 7 ohms. This 7 ohm value is also the inductive
> reactance value of the coils I use to create the
> voltage rise @ 480 hz, which is the source voltage
> supply that passes this amperage through the pieces.
> This process also works with DC, where I use two sets
> of full wave rectifiers across two phases of voltage
> rise, to eliminate most of the DC "ripple" that would
> be present if only one interphasal voltage rise were
> rectified. Since this is DC current, power factor
> arguments do not apply, and 63 watts, (21 volts * 3A)
> is being expended across the ferrite. The question I
> have is whether that 63 watts is enough to cause the
> peice to glow red hot, because thats what it does.
> Fusing marks are later seen  on the pathway where the
> part formerly glowed red hot, and when the process is
> repeated, the pieces appear to have been
> "conditioned", as on start up  at the designated
> voltage of operation; the parts instantly start to
> glow, whereas on the first run this takes a minute or
> so to achieve. My question is this, is 63 watts enough
> energy to make a 3/8 inch piece like this glow red hot
> on its conductive fused pathway? I wish to send some
> of these pieces to the local university for analysis.
>
> For those on teslafy list,  both AC and DC ferrite
> glows are pictured as jpegs in the file
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/files/SP/
>
> For any persons wishing to see this process, I am
> located in Streetsboro Ohio, north of Kent. I am also
> willing to transport the equipment for producing these
> effects to the university for demonstrations. I also
> have the necessary amount of coils to adapt this
> process to 60 hz, at far lower temperature regimens,
> as a future source of home electrical heating, and in
> fact plan to use this process for home heating this
> winter, provided those results conform to that found
> at 480 hz.
>
> Sincerely Harvey D Norris
> 330-626-4600
>
>
>
> =====
> Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal
Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/
>

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Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 11:18:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jones Beene 
Subject: Bad news; good news
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Although the World consumption of primary energy has recently increased well ahead of the prior 10-year growth trend of 1.4% per annum (primarily because of increased energy demand of almost 20% per year in China) there is at least one bit of good news - LRC.

Remember that acronym: LRC ! Thanks to some recent R&D developments, the short-term salvation for the USA in energy resources may come from LRCWF - which stands for "low rank coal" water fuel meaning lignite and sub-bituminous coal in a water slurry. It is actually cleaner than regular coal with little sulfur and easier to mine, far cheaper in fact than even regular coal - but of low comparative energy content. meaning you need more of it.

http://tinyurl.com/352er

Recent progress in treatment processes are becoming available so that LRC burns cleanly and efficiently. Alaska is the 'Saudi-Arabia of LRC," and the rest of the US isn't far behind, but until recently this was not seen as a viable alternative to oil. Since it is usually close to the surface, however, LRC is available for the energy equivalent of about $7 barrel oil equivalent and that advantage has made its use in a converted diesel engine a prime goal for researchers.

http://www.lanl.gov/projects/cctc/factsheets/disel/ccddemo.html

A barrel of oil has about 6.2 million Btu and now costs $40. A ton of coal has about 21 million Btu and now costs about $33, making coal about 4 times cheaper for the same amount of energy - but treated LRC as a slurry has about 10 million Btu per ton and costs about $10 per ton, making it about 6 times cheaper than oil, and it is a liquid (kind of), and it burns as cleanly as oil in a properly converted system - but you would need a much bigger fuel tank as it is nearly half water. Even if oil retreats to $30 barrel, the advantage is still with LRCWF except for needing larger storage tanks.

With a national effort to bring redesigned ICE systems for burning LRC slurry to market - first for trucks and trains, then later for autos - coal would have an opportunity to compete with imported oil. Alaska's estimated recoverable LRC coal resources total over 5 trillion tons, possibly one-sixth of the world's reserves. This would give us about 200 years of our present consumption rate of foreign oil, plus there is so much more LRC in the contiguous US and Canada that few geologists have even taken the time to total it all up - and oil sands can be used in a similar way.

Downside  - strip mining - this has a terrible reputation (for good reason), of course, but are the negative aspects of strip mining capable of being mitigated with proper legislation and a few $ per barrel for land recovery?

Jones

 
 




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Although the World consumption of primary energy has recently increased well ahead of the prior 10-year growth trend of 1.4% per annum (primarily because of increased energy demand of almost 20% per year in China) there is at least one bit of good news - LRC.


Remember that acronym: LRC ! Thanks to some recent R&D developments, the short-term salvation for the USA in energy resources may come from LRCWF - which stands for "low rank coal" water fuel meaning lignite and sub-bituminous coal in a water slurry. It is actually cleaner than regular coal with little sulfur and easier to mine, far cheaper in fact than even regular coal - but of low comparative energy content. meaning you need more of it.


http://tinyurl.com/352er


Recent progress in treatment processes are becoming available so that LRC burns cleanly and efficiently. Alaska is the 'Saudi-Arabia of LRC," and the rest of the US isn't far behind, but until recently this was not seen as a viable alternative to oil. Since it is usually close to the surface, however, LRC is available for the energy equivalent of about $7 barrel oil equivalent and that advantage has made its use in a converted diesel engine a prime goal for researchers.


http://www.lanl.gov/projects/cctc/factsheets/disel/ccddemo.html


A barrel of oil has about 6.2 million Btu and now costs $40. A ton of coal has about 21 million Btu and now costs about $33, making coal about 4 times cheaper for the same amount of energy - but treated LRC as a slurry has about 10 million Btu per ton and costs about $10 per ton, making it about 6 times cheaper than oil, and it is a liquid (kind of), and it burns as cleanly as oil in a properly converted system - but you would need a much bigger fuel tank as it is nearly half water. Even if oil retreats to $30 barrel, the advantage is still with LRCWF except for needing larger storage tanks.


With a national effort to bring redesigned ICE systems for burning LRC slurry to market - first for trucks and trains, then later for autos - coal would have an opportunity to compete with imported oil. Alaska's estimated recoverable LRC coal resources total over 5 trillion tons, possibly one-sixth of the world's reserves. This would give us about 200 years of our present consumption rate of foreign oil, plus there is so much more LRC in the contiguous US and Canada that few geologists have even taken the time to total it all up - and oil sands can be used in a similar way.


Downside  - strip mining - this has a terrible reputation (for good reason), of course, but are the negative aspects of strip mining capable of being mitigated with proper legislation and a few $ per barrel for land recovery?


Jones


 


 

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Subject: FW: WHAT'S NEW     Saturday, May 29, 2004
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> To: Akira Kawasaki 
> Date: 5/29/2004 12:11:40 AM
> Subject: WHAT'S NEW     Saturday, May 29, 2004
>
 WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 28 May 04   Washington, DC

 1. ENERGY: GAS PRICES ARE SHOOTING UP, AND THAT'S THE GOOD NEWS!
 Just a few years ago, the sound of China was incessant honking as
 an occasional car tried to push its way through a sea of bicycles
 and pedestrians.  The car won.  Beijing traffic now looks like LA
 or DC, adding enormously to world demand for oil, most of which
 is beneath countries that don't like us very much.  Bush's short-
 term solution is to drill in the arctic wildlife refuge (caribou
 don't vote).  Long-term, Bush has the hydrogen-initiative (See
 POPA study, http://www.aps.org/public_affairs/index.cfm ), but it
 can't be made competitive.  Kerry's short-term solution is to use
 the strategic reserve.  Sigh!  WN liked him better when he wanted
 a 50 cent tax hike on gasoline.  We need conservation.  High gas
 prices are already pushing SUV sales down, but it was OPEC that
 pushed the price up.  If we plan to declare war on every country
 led by a bad guy, we'll need tax revenue.  We could also think
 about making CAFE standards apply to all passenger cars, even if
 they're SUVs and weigh as much as cement trucks.  As the price of
 gas goes up, the air gets cleaner, people return to the inner
 cities, traffic is reduced, less time is wasted commuting.

 2. DOMESTIC TRANQUILITY: WHAT HAPPENS AFTER THE ELECTION IS OVER?
 The Washington Post yesterday disclosed that a May 19 White House
 budget memorandum directs agencies preparing their 2006 budgets
 to assume spending levels that are sharply reduced for virtually
 every domestic program.  This includes programs of the National
 Science Foundation and the Environmental Protection Agency.  

 3. PLACEBO EFFECT: USE OF ALTERNATIVE REMEDIES CONTINUES TO GROW. 
 A new government survey of adult Americans found that 36 percent
 of us use some kind of "complementary or alternative" therapy.
 The number jumps to 62 percent when prayer is included.  I find
 it surprising that the percentages are not higher; you make the
 list if you take vitamins, or meditate, or get a massage, or go
 on some fad diet.  Echinacea turns out to be the most popular
 herbal supplement, although studies stubbornly refuse to uncover
 any benefit.  Wisdom has it that echinacea wards off colds, but
 when adults taking echinacea three times a day inhaled a strain
 of common cold virus, ninety percent came down with a cold. 

 4. HOMEOPATHY: CAN YOU DO PLACEBO-CONTROLLED STUDIES OF PLACEBOS?
 Four years ago, a guest on "Superquark," an Italian television
 science program, observed that relying on homeopathy could be
 dangerous for someone who actually has a serious illness.  The
 Italian Association of Medical Homeopathy sued the host of the
 program.  But last month, according to Nature, the court in
 Catania ruled that the opinions of the guest were "justified" and
 "could not be considered offensive or defamatory."


 THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND.  
 Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the
 University of Maryland, but they should be.
 ---
 Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN
 To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: 


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From: aki@ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki)
Subject: Police seeking help in Mallove killing
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This story is being sent to you by Akira Kawasaki (aki@ix.netcom.com) on Saturday, May 29, 2004 at 19:58:35
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.norwichbulletin.com/news/stories/20040529/localnews/527718.html

Police seeking help in Mallove killing

Latest update.

Courtesy of www.norwichbulletin.com 

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At 11:18 AM -0700 5/29/04, Jones Beene wrote:
>Downside  - strip mining


I got it. Adapt transportation units to take coal slurry one way, and garbage the other. Use the strip mined holes for landfill. Bonus: in a few millioin years, the organic crud in the garbage will convert to coal again!  

 Rick

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On Thursday 27 May 2004 16:13, Edmund Storms wrote:
> Jed Rothwell wrote:
> > See:
> >
> > "Nuclear jet crash 'could kill millions'
> >
> > Fears that the UK's nuclear plants are vulnerable to a 9/11-style attack
> > or accident are growing . . ."
> >
> > http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99995036
> >
> > http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992859
> >
> > Conventional fission reactors are an "all or nothing" proposition, aren't
> > they? As long as everything goes according to plan, I have to admit they
> > are a superb source of energy: nonpolluting, inexpensive, highly
> > concentrated. Even the radwaste disposal problem seems to be less of a a
> > health risk than things such as coal. But the potential for harm is so
> > great . . . The public will never be happy with them, and the public is a
> > lot smarter than it looks.
>
> All reactors will sooner or later fail.  Radiation damage of parts that can
> not be examined or replaced will cause eventual failure.  The only issue is
> whether the reactor is decommissioned before this happens and whether the
> response of safety controls will prevent cascade failure.  It is easy to
> forget the disasters and near disasters such devices have suffered.  Now we
> have given people who want to cause disaster an easy target.  Yet, the Bush
> administration wants to build more of these time bombs to make hydrogen.
> Heaven help us from fools and knaves.
>
> Ed
>
> > Fission reactors are an example of "unforgiving" technology.
> >
> > - Jed

Sshhhhheeeeeeeshhh!
Sounds like more crepe hangin than a gangster's funeral.  It is this kind of 
overblown alarmism that will bring ruination to this country.  Really it is 
like screamin "FIRE" at the top of ones lungs in a crowded theater.

I listened to this kind of arrant nonsense all during the pacifist 70's and 
the beginning of the materialist 80's.  The only thing that resulted is that
the nuclear plants that WERE built were not American, but of other less
safe designs from foreign providers on foreign soils where this kind of
treasonous  behavior would rate execution by various means as its
swift and just reward.   We Americans, facing the wall of the death of
our standard of living, our social institutions, our social security benefits,
and of our medical system, should  not listen to these
spreaders of doom in the face of the certain benefits that an energy
independent nation would provide.

Fission energy fills a gap between fossil energy and fusion energy.  We 
do not know when fusion will become a practical alternative, so must do
the economics of today until tomorrow comes.  Uranium sources will eventually 
run out as well.  But we are hypocritical about that as well.  One of the 
four major source areas for Uranium is the Katanga Province of the
Democratic Republic of the Congo.  The only developed civilized nation
that is helping there in a serious way now is South Africa.  If we were so
interested in non-proliferation, why do we stay away from the Congo.  God
knows they need help too!   Extending the uranium resource can is best 
accomplished with breeder reactor technology.  We could have had
this functioning for us today.  We threw away our opportunities to be the safe 
leaders of this technology with the foolish closure of the Clinch River 
Facility during the Carter administration.   The Japanese have embarked on 
this path but seem to be faltering in resolve.  Perhaps they have their 
economic saboteurs as well.  The Chinese are certainly pursuing it.  When
they acheive it, we might as well start learning mandarin and communism
with 'Chinese Characteristics'!  

Perhaps if our brave luddites will undertake a mission to Peking (Beijing) and 
hold a demonstration in Tian An Men Square and demand that the Chinese tear 
down all their nuclear reactors...and yes, blow up the Three Gorges Dam as 
well................   But naw, folks, that ain't gonna happen.  You don't 
anger your employer now do you.  You might not get paid....or would you!?

This technology will be pursued and won.  The only question is  by whom and
when, and how many disruptors will have to be hunted down and destroyed
in the process.



A Redneck

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From: Harvey Norris 
Subject: Re: Kent State Univ contacted for ferrite heating demos.
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--- jonfli  wrote:
> Harvey,
> 
> I find your test results of the anomalous SrFe
> heating most interesting! I'm
> certainly no expert in calorimetry, but you might
> try using a non-contact IR
> temperature measuring device at a fixed distance to
> compare the heated
> ferrite to other ~60 watt loads such as a light bulb
> or load resistor. This
> should give you a rough comparison at least of the
> emitted IR.
This has been arranged for borrowed use: I currently
do not have temperatures sensors of this type, but a
local automotive repairman is lending this for
observation.
> Another test would be to place the device(s) in a
> closed insulated box with
> a thermocouple for temperature sensing and run the
> unit(s) until you see
> temperature stabilization and compare the results.
Good suggestions for a calorimetry testing have been
sent to me, but there is a idiocyncasy here, where
once the heat is extracted, the performance goes down,
and the naysayers are welcome to have their day. This
led to testings with larger specimens as you have led
up to. The larger specimum widths will not respond to
this same effect, as with the present set up; simply
because the voltage is not high enough to trigger the
initial heating effect. However a system to engage the
higher voltages to initiate the effects, and then
switch back to the effects attained to with the higher
amperage (interphasal) resonant choke circuit seem
logical as the next stage to engage the same effect
with larger samples. Here there is quite a large
amount of unkwowns, and predictions made as to what 
"should" happen arent worth the price of reading those
speculations, but nevertheless they ARE made
mentioned.
> 
> The SrFe appears to be entering a nonlinear negative
> resistance regime and I
> for one am curious as to it's "effective" heating as
> compared to linear
> loads! 
One hell of a lot of homework remains undone here. 
The immediate priority is to understand whether this
is just a property of the material itself,( a doubtful
prognosis there) or whether that material only
responds that way to resonant voltage rise. This is
easy enough for me to test because I have a "current
limited" AC alternator to send the same frequency
ThroGH A 62/1 POLE PIG  transformer and then compare
the results for both cases using equal or surpassed
ferromagnetic voltage sources.

     Contrary to popular opinion, VOLTAGE, as
specified as an absolute value, is an entirely
incorrect absolute, meaning that by the three
parameters of voltatge- amperage - resistance -
impedance, one quantity can be deduced by knowing two
out of three values! I discovered this error easily by
taking the remedies of book knowledge, which quickly
gave me a headache, and then discovering why every
thing is wrong according to that book knowledge, I was
able to deduce the erroneous assumptions the book
knowledge contains, thereby reaching the conclusion
that voltage, as read by a measurement, does not
always give the same results of conduction for two
equal cases of load, and we have to look into the past
history of how the voltage was created, to determine
how the load will act. In the special cases of
resonance, if the "Outer Filter" creating the resonant
voltage rise to further  "interphasal" resonances,
itself is defined as the "absolute" amount of voltage
applied to the second generation resonant voltage
rise, typically noted as L2C2, if these voltage laws
were absolute L2C2 should resonate equally well if
sourced from an equally obtained voltage from a
transformer, rather then that of a similarly valued
resonant voltage. If fact, what becomes common sensce
is that a resonant outer voltage source has the
profound effect of "broadening" the bandwidth of the
selected resonance. What this means with the value of
a 60 henry coil resonance speculation is that the book
value will give a C answer (at alternator 480 Hz)that
is quite far from reality, according to the correct
value needed for resonance; but yet when you use those
values for the inner phased resonance, it still
resonates to some degree, even though the values are
not correct. When you take those same L2C2 values and
apply the equal amount of voltage from the
ferromagnetic source, you can find practically no
resonant effect on the coil for this particular
example, which also means that if someone were to just
plug in the values by equation, and find no sensible
answer from a transformer, this would lead them into
the dark. And speaking of the dark zone, if we wished
to vary the phase angle from 120 degrees to 90
degrees, from the tight ferromagnetically sourced
broadband, only an incremental amount of capacity
change in the picofarad range would change that phase
angel, which is  a very problematic issue in the dark
zone of doomed ferromagnetic devices, but it is just
the paradox of that thinking that leads to that
conclusion.

In contrast with resonant voltage sources, we do not
see such apparent contradictions of common sense, yet
the unschooled may declare otherwise. Here I have
given a simple example, L2C2 that can partially
resonate from a resonant voltage source, because L2C2
has its bandwidth expanded by the preliminary resonant
elements of dual (filter) outer L1C1 values, and when
that (normally narrow) bandwidth is expanded for the
condition that L1<< L2 and C2<< C1, a mistuned
resonance can work from resonant sources, but show
practically no effect from the same absolte value
given by transformer.

This is where the ferrite heating phenomenon takes on
a very heated question itself, whereby Holmes might
speculate;

IS IT A PROPERTY OF THE MATERIAL ITSELF; OR IS IT A
DERIVED PROPERTY ONLY WHEN MADE BY A MORE UNIQUE
VOLTAGE SOURCES FROM RESONANCE?

So I need to get back to my alternator and pole pig
and find that out, so this is my homework to be
done...

HDN

=====
Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/

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Standing Bear wrote:

> On Thursday 27 May 2004 16:13, Edmund Storms wrote:
> > Jed Rothwell wrote:
> > > See:
> > >
> > > "Nuclear jet crash 'could kill millions'
> > >
> > > Fears that the UK's nuclear plants are vulnerable to a 9/11-style attack
> > > or accident are growing . . ."
> > >
> > > http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99995036
> > >
> > > http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992859
> > >
> > > Conventional fission reactors are an "all or nothing" proposition, aren't
> > > they? As long as everything goes according to plan, I have to admit they
> > > are a superb source of energy: nonpolluting, inexpensive, highly
> > > concentrated. Even the radwaste disposal problem seems to be less of a a
> > > health risk than things such as coal. But the potential for harm is so
> > > great . . . The public will never be happy with them, and the public is a
> > > lot smarter than it looks.
> >
> > All reactors will sooner or later fail.  Radiation damage of parts that can
> > not be examined or replaced will cause eventual failure.  The only issue is
> > whether the reactor is decommissioned before this happens and whether the
> > response of safety controls will prevent cascade failure.  It is easy to
> > forget the disasters and near disasters such devices have suffered.  Now we
> > have given people who want to cause disaster an easy target.  Yet, the Bush
> > administration wants to build more of these time bombs to make hydrogen.
> > Heaven help us from fools and knaves.
> >
> > Ed
> >
> > > Fission reactors are an example of "unforgiving" technology.
> > >
> > > - Jed
>
> Sshhhhheeeeeeeshhh!
> Sounds like more crepe hangin than a gangster's funeral.  It is this kind of
> overblown alarmism that will bring ruination to this country.  Really it is
> like screamin "FIRE" at the top of ones lungs in a crowded theater.

Your analogy is not accurate.  This is more like warning people entering the
theater that the place is a fire trap.

>
>
> I listened to this kind of arrant nonsense all during the pacifist 70's and
> the beginning of the materialist 80's.  The only thing that resulted is that
> the nuclear plants that WERE built were not American, but of other less
> safe designs from foreign providers on foreign soils where this kind of
> treasonous  behavior would rate execution by various means as its
> swift and just reward.

I have no idea where you get your information.  GE and Westinghouse made most of
the reactors based on a unique US design.  Other countries used much better
designs that were not built here.

> We Americans, facing the wall of the death of
> our standard of living, our social institutions, our social security benefits,
> and of our medical system, should  not listen to these
> spreaders of doom in the face of the certain benefits that an energy
> independent nation would provide.

The standard of living is not being compromised by restrictions on nuclear
energy, but because of greed that is not restrained by the common good.  All
societies need to achieve such a balance to survive.  In the US, the balance is
shifting increasingly toward greed, as Enron and other horror stories
demonstrate.  If you want to get upset, I suggest you fight the battle that is
actually being fought and the one that will eventually affect your life.

>
>
> Fission energy fills a gap between fossil energy and fusion energy.  We
> do not know when fusion will become a practical alternative, so must do
> the economics of today until tomorrow comes.

Fusion energy based on the present technology will create even bigger problems
because the power generators will have to be huge to be practical.  Consequently,
the stability of the power source will be even more uncertain and the resulting
radioactivity will be even more concentrated.

> Uranium sources will eventually
> run out as well.  But we are hypocritical about that as well.  One of the
> four major source areas for Uranium is the Katanga Province of the
> Democratic Republic of the Congo.  The only developed civilized nation
> that is helping there in a serious way now is South Africa.  If we were so
> interested in non-proliferation, why do we stay away from the Congo.  God
> knows they need help too!   Extending the uranium resource can is best
> accomplished with breeder reactor technology.  We could have had
> this functioning for us today.  We threw away our opportunities to be the safe
> leaders of this technology with the foolish closure of the Clinch River
> Facility during the Carter administration.   The Japanese have embarked on
> this path but seem to be faltering in resolve.  Perhaps they have their
> economic saboteurs as well.  The Chinese are certainly pursuing it.  When
> they acheive it, we might as well start learning mandarin and communism
> with 'Chinese Characteristics'!

 The breeder approach has so many problems and dangers that I would have to write
an essay to explain them all.  You should hope that the leadership is not so
stupid to go this route or you will discover that you will have even more to
complain about.

>
>
> Perhaps if our brave luddites will undertake a mission to Peking (Beijing) and
> hold a demonstration in Tian An Men Square and demand that the Chinese tear
> down all their nuclear reactors...and yes, blow up the Three Gorges Dam as
> well................   But naw, folks, that ain't gonna happen.  You don't
> anger your employer now do you.  You might not get paid....or would you!?
>
> This technology will be pursued and won.  The only question is  by whom and
> when, and how many disruptors will have to be hunted down and destroyed
> in the process.

And how many rednecks who will have to be destroyed when they discover the
reality of what they fought to achieve.

Ed Storms



>
>
> A Redneck

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 29 21:08:39 2004
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Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 21:08:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Harvey Norris 
Subject: Re: Kent State Univ contacted for ferrite heating demos.
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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--- Dean Miller  wrote:
> Your little ferrites can't possibly radiate enough
> heat to stop their
> destruction when you put 63 watts through them
> unless they're
> thermally coupled to a much larger heat radiator or
> other heat sink.
> 
> -- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF
Thats a good starting point then, I will calculate the
cubic volume and weigh the piece to determine density.
However given the previously submitted facts about the
nonlinear resistance nature of ferrite, that it looses
resistance with temperature gain, do you still think
the amount of heat release follows normal resistance
laws, and whether your above argument applies?
Obviously also the density of the piece, (being in
excess to normal ceramic material?) might also have a
bearing here.
Sincerely HDN


=====
Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 29 23:00:02 2004
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From: "Orchestra" 
To: 
Subject: Possible new Mars species
Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 09:01:37 +0300
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Color Pancam images reveals a new Mars specie or new kind of features. Although
I noticed on new Sprit images, it is possible they can be spotted on other
locations once composite images are zoomed and gamma correction pulled down.
http://orchestra.webhostme.com/images/2P138883542EFF54CAP2267L2M1(256)-frame1.png

These features are appearing in a mesh formation, possibly levelled from ground.
They constitute of filaments and small attached spherules with variable
distance.
These spherules appears smaller than average "blue berry".

In some other pictures mesh structure is not clear and could be basically
described as string.
http://orchestra.webhostme.com/images/2P138795879EFF54CAP2266L2M1(256)-frame5.png

This frame show such a specie/feature on the path of the rover track, still in
good condition.
http://orchestra.webhostme.com/images/2P138793789EFF54CAP2265L2M1(256)-frame1.png

On Opportunity site, I also found filaments with attached micro spherules in
Pancam enlargements, scenes suggest that these spherules could be the "blue
berries" in their earlier time stage. I will present them in a later posting.

Regards,

hamdi ucar






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From: Dean Miller 
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On Fri, 28 May 2004 08:37:14 -0400, "Terry Blanton"
 wrote:

>BTW, do you remember Tinsley on the Encounters forum (or is that part of 
>your life you're trying to forget :-)?

Oh, yes, I remember the Encounters forum.  :)  With Tinsley,
Monteverde and lots of others.  Some are still around here.  

-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF

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From: "Frederick Sparber" 
To: 
Subject: Re: Methane Hydrate Synthesis & Storage
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 08:04:55 -0500
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 Accepted value, 170 volumes STP of methane per volume of Methane Hydrate.

" Methane is four times as bad for Global Warming as Carbon Dioxide."
 
http://www.llnl.gov/str/Durham.html
 
Handy Pressure Converter: http://www.ilpi.com/msds/ref/pressureunits.html

Handy Temperature Converter:
http://www.ilpi.com/msds/ref/tempunits.html


Also, a good way to "store" Carbon Dioxide Hydrate.

I hope the bottom of the oceans stay cold.   :-)

Regards,

Frederick



From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 31 09:08:29 2004
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Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 12:08:16 -0400
To: vortex-L@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell 
Subject: Re: New Scientist reports reactor safety concerns---- a
  rebuttal
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Standing Bear wrote:

 > I listened to this kind of arrant nonsense all during the pacifist 70's and
 > the beginning of the materialist 80's.  The only thing that resulted is that
 > the nuclear plants that WERE built were not American . . .

All nuclear plants in the U.S. were designed and built by U.S. companies.


 > Fission energy fills a gap between fossil energy and fusion energy.

Alternatives such as wind power would fill that gap at a much lower 
cost,   with less pollution, with no safety concerns. (Uranium mining and 
fuel production causes significant pollution.)


 > We do not know when fusion will become a practical alternative, so must do
 > the economics of today until tomorrow comes.  Uranium sources will 
eventually
 > run out as well.

Actually, there is already a 250 year supply, mainly in Canada and 
Australia. There is a huge glut of uranium.


 > Extending the uranium resource can is best
 > accomplished with breeder reactor technology.

Perhaps in the future this will true. There is no rush; we have a 250 year 
supply, and the used uranium will still be here if better breeder 
technology is developed. However the U.S. "Fermi" and Japanese "Monji" 
breeder programs were both technical and economic fiascos. They both 
suffered from major fires caused by the same thing. The Japanese program 
would have produced electricity many times more expensive than any other 
source. It would have been economic insanity to continue with it, even if 
the reactor had not been seriously damaged and permanently mothballed.


 > The Japanese have embarked on
 > this path but seem to be faltering in resolve.

Yes, they can do arithmetic. They are not "faltering." The program is dead 
as dead can be, much to the relief of the Japanese power companies. The U.S 
Enrico Fermi breeder reactor was a similar case of a government program out 
of control. From 1951 to 1964, the reactor was either under construction 
years behind schedule, or under repair after catastrophic failures. The 
repairs alone cost far more than the initial projected cost. In the end, I 
recall it actually operated for a couple of weeks during that 13 year period.

There is now more actual (not nameplate) wind power worldwide than there 
was nuclear power in the mid 1960s, which was supposedly the heyday of 
nuclear power. The cost of wind turbine generators per kilowatt of capacity 
is six times lower than nuclear plants. North Dakota alone could generate 
enough wind-based hydrogen to power all of the motor vehicles in the U.S. 
People who call themselves conservatives, and who think it is important to 
free the U.S. from foreign fuel sources such as oil and uranium, should 
automatically advocate wind power instead. If you insist on building only 
proven, existing technology, wind is the only sane choice. Even apart from 
considerations of global warming, terrorist attacks with dirty bombs, and 
so on, it is a no-brainer. The U.S. has two sources of energy in vast 
abundance: coal and wind power. It seems obvious to me which should be 
developed.

The world's most concentrated wind energy happens to be located right in 
the middle of our natural gas pipeline network in the Dakotas and Texas. We 
was sitting as much potential annual energy production as the middle east 
produces, and ours will never run out. We have approximately 3,000 
quads/year of potential wind energy, excluding all environmentally fragile 
areas, national parks, airports and so on. Estimated wind resources 
increase year by year, because wind turbines are growing larger, and they 
sweep a larger cross section of the atmosphere. The entire U.S. consumes 
100 quads; transportation takes 38 quads, and it would take half or one 
third of that with hydrogen vehicles, because they are more efficient.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 31 09:24:43 2004
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From: "Frederick Sparber" 
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Subject: Re: Hydrogen Hydrate Synthesis & Storage
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This is a bit of a surprise.

http://www.light-science.com/hydrogengasfuel.html

"Until recently, scientists thought that molecular hydrogen (H2) was too small to be
contained in clathrate hydrates - crystalline solids where a framework of water
molecules enclose molecules of gas. Now, researchers at the Carnegie Institution of
Washington's Geophysical Laboratory, University of Chicago, and Los Alamos National
Laboratory, have been able to trap the gas inside water-ice structures forming
hydrogen hydrate. According to team member Ho-kwang (Dave) Mao, "This result could be
a first step toward an alternative way of storing environmentally friendly hydrogen
gas. It also points to the possibility that hydrogen might exist in icy bodies in our
solar system that we thought were incapable of retaining it." The scientists report
their findings in the September 27, 2002, issue of Science."


From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 31 14:54:19 2004
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From: Terry Blanton 
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This is the interview by Art Bell of Richard Hoagland on the day of Dr. 
Mallove's passing:

http://www.enterprisemission.com/_articles/05-22-2004/Bell-InterviewPartOne.htm

with some mysterious comments.